The loss of Soviet and German armored vehicles in 1943 year. Kursk arc

230
Why T-34 lost to PzKpfw III, but won against Tigers and Panthers. In 1941, the “thirty-four” possesses ultimatum-powerful armor and a cannon in comparison with any armored vehicles of Nazi Germany. However, these advantages were largely balanced by the well-known "blindness" - the lack of surveillance, the lack of a fifth crew member, the complexity of management, as well as the mass of "childhood illnesses". In addition, the average Soviet tank the crews were trained much worse than the German ones, who had gained combat experience in Poland and France, and the units and formations lost both in experience and in communication, and in the ability to correctly combine the actions of infantry, artillery and tanks.





In 1942, the superiority of the T-34 in artillery and armor was maintained, while the tank gradually got rid of "childhood diseases", and the tank forces acquired the combat experience they needed. But the Germans were not idle, and by the end of the year they were able to saturate the troops with long-barreled 50-mm and 75-mm guns, with which they also began to arm their tanks and self-propelled guns. This created a known inconvenience for the Germans, but as a result, by the beginning of 1943, the T-34 had lost the honorary title of a tank with anti-bullet booking.

In the first half of the 1943, the T-34 received, finally, major upgrades, such as high-quality air filters, a commander's turret, a new gearbox, etc., which turned the thirty-four into a very advanced tank for maneuvering war and deep operations. According to the author, which he justified in the previous article, on the totality of the combat qualities of the T-34 arr. 1943 was fully consistent with the German medium tank T-IVH. The “thirty-four”, of course, was inferior to the “four” in a “head-on” duel situation, because the very powerful 75-mm cannon of the German tank and partial booking of the frontal projection of the 80-mm hull with armor gave it undeniable advantages in such a battle. However, even in such a situation, the superiority of the German tank was not absolute, since its tower and part of the frontal projection of the hull could well have been punctured with solid armor-piercing "blanks" T-34. However, the war is not at all confined to head-on tank combat, and in many other aspects T-IVH was inferior to T-34 - due to weak armor booking, top of hull and bottom, it was much more vulnerable to the effects of small-caliber anti-tank artillery artillery, infantry anti-tank weapons and min. At the same time, the T-34 had a long travel range at one refueling station, and finally became quite reliable and relatively easy to operate with a tank suitable for deep operations.

Thus, it can be said that from about June 1943 of the T-34 with the 76,2-mm gun reached the peak of its development.

By the beginning of 1943, the troops received a very considerable number of T-34s. In total, at the beginning of this year, the Red Army had 7,6 of thousands of medium tanks, and it is obvious that the bulk of them were precisely the T-34 of various years of release. A very large number, taking into account the fact that the Germans had a total number of armored vehicles at the beginning of the same year reached about 8 thousand units, which included light vehicles, and far from all of them were on the eastern front. During 1943, the army received 23,9 thousand medium tanks, including approximately 15,6 thousand made up "thirty-four". A total of 1943 plants produced 15 696 of these tanks, but perhaps not all of the released ones managed to get into parts, but they could be transferred a certain number of "Thirty-four", produced in 1942 g. However, this will not affect the statistics seriously .

Thus, we can state that in tank forces the situation improved in all respects - here both mass production, and high-quality improvement of tanks, and improvement of staff structures, in the form of formation of tank and mechanized corps of quite adequate personnel, and on their basis - tank armies . The first can be considered an analogue of the German tank and motorized divisions, the second - tank corps. In addition, of course, the fighters and commanders gained a rich military experience.

The loss ratio in 1943


And, nevertheless, our tank losses in 1943 were significantly higher than the German ones. If we take the statistics provided by Müller-Hillebrand, it turns out that this year, on all fronts, the 8 988 tanks and SAU of all types were irretrievably lost. At the same time, the losses of the Red Army were about 23,5 thousand tanks and SPG.

As mentioned earlier, these figures are not equivalent, since in the Wehrmacht and the Red Army the accounting of losses was carried out in different ways. In our irretrievable losses, both non-combat losses and a portion of return losses are “sitting”, in cases when the decommissioned tank required a major overhaul or restoration. And here it remains to blame on the inaccuracies of historians. For example, G.F. Krivosheev, in the book “The Great Patriotic War. Book of losses "indicates that the losses of Soviet armored vehicles in the table below are irrevocable

The loss of Soviet and German armored vehicles in 1943 year. Kursk arc


But he also points out that in the “Received” column revenues of armored vehicles from factories, Lend-Lease and returned to troops from major repairs and after restoration are taken into account. At the same time, with respect to the loss graph it is indicated that it contains both combat and non-combat losses. But it is abundantly clear that “Losses” also includes tanks that have gone down for major repairs or restoration, since otherwise the balance simply would not converge.

Well, the Germans have nothing of this, or if there is, it is far from being in full. Why? If we try to reduce the Muller-Hillebrand figures to the balance, we will see that the balance does not beat in both directions: that is, for one tank the calculated residues are lower than the actual ones, for others - higher. It is possible that these are simply inaccurate figures, but most likely this is due to the lack of accounting for the disposal and return of armored vehicles from major repairs.



Nothing Muller-Hillebrand says about the losses of captured tanks, and those in the German army was a lot even on the Kursk Bulge. Accordingly, when recalculated according to the German method, the Soviet losses of tanks and self-propelled guns will significantly decrease, and vice versa - the calculation according to the Soviet method will lead to a significant increase in German losses.

All this is true, but for a correct comparison it is necessary to take into account other factors - now “in favor” of the Germans. In 1943, their troops were very fierce battles in Africa, and then capitulated in Tunisia, which naturally led to noticeable losses, including in tanks. And then there was the landing in Sicily and other battles in which the Germans, naturally, also suffered tank losses - and all this should be taken away from the total number of losses, since, for comparison, we need only those losses that the Germans suffered on the Soviet German front. In addition, in one of the previous articles of this cycle, the author made a very reasonable assumption that 1943 took into account a significant part of the losses of the “Panzervaffe”, which they actually suffered earlier, during the 1942, in the Battle of Stalingrad.

Thus, it is extremely difficult, if you can, to find out how much a reliable ratio of the losses of tanks and ACS of the USSR and Germany on the Soviet-German front. But in any case, it can be stated that the Red Army lost tanks and self-propelled guns much more than the Wehrmacht and the SS. The loss ratio of 2: 1 is probably close to the truth, but it is possible that the affairs of the Red Army were even worse.

And then, of course, a natural question arises: if the organization, combat experience and materiel (in the form of T-34) of the Soviet armored forces came close to the German Panzervaffe, then where did the difference in losses come from?

Two words about Kursk Bulge


The Kursk Arc and its individual episodes, such as the Battle of Prokhorovka, are still the subject of fierce disputes between military lovers stories. And one of the reasons for such a dispute is the irretrievable loss of tanks and self-propelled guns that the parties suffered.



Of course, in the format of a journal article, it is definitely impossible to give a comprehensive assessment of the Soviet and German losses of armored vehicles, but still some observations should be made. More or less weighted estimates give the 4: 1 ratio in favor of the Germans - a number of sources refer to irretrievable losses in 6 000 tanks and self-propelled artillery systems from us and 1 500 - from Panzerväff. Where did these numbers come from?

According to G.F. Krivosheev, in the Kursk defensive, Orel and Belgorod-Kharkiv offensive operations conducted during July-August 1943, the Red Army lost the 6 064 tank and SAU. Müller-Hillebrand reports that the total irretrievable losses of the Wehrmacht’s technology in July-August were 1 738 machines. Of course, the places in which the Germans lost their tanks were not at all confined to these three operations, since the Donbass, Donetsk and Chernigov-Poltava operations began in August, and our allies invaded Sicily, but still the main casualties in armored vehicles, Of course, the Germans suffered precisely at Kursk. In addition, here again played the factor of late write-off of fascist tanks for scrap (they were often transferred to the account in the column “requires major repairs” and were written off only later, which is noted by a number of domestic and foreign researchers). Again, one should be aware of the incompatibility of numbers - in the 6 064 tank and SAU from GF. Krivosheeva got the equipment, descended on major repairs and restoration.

And then questions begin. The fact is that the battle of Kursk for us consisted of the 3 battles listed above: the Kursk defensive, the Oryol and the Belgorod-Kharkiv offensive. The Germans under the operation "Citadel", in fact, understood only part of the Kursk defensive operation. The latter lasted for 19 days, from 5 to 23 in July 1943 g: the Germans only understand the period from 5 to 17 in July by the operation “Citadel”. If we assume that the Wehrmacht and the SS have irretrievably lost 1 500 tanks and self-propelled guns in all three operations, it is obvious that their losses during the period of Operation Citadel were significantly lower.

And here there is a big stumbling block between a number of sources, as well as our official history and revisionists. Previously, it was generally accepted that the German units were drained of blood during the "Citadel", and for a long time they lost their combat effectiveness. This is confirmed by such an eminent German author as Kurt Tippelskirkh, who, after describing attempts to “cut off” the Kursk salient, points out: “After a few days, it became clear that the German troops that had suffered irreparable losses failed to achieve their goal.”

However, revisionists see the question differently. They indicate that the Germans, according to various sources, concentrated for the operation “Citadel” 2 500 - 2 700 tanks and SPG, or even a bit more. At the same time, the irretrievable loss in armored vehicles during its implementation amounted to a few hundred machines on the strength of. For example, according to German researchers Zetterling and Frankson, who worked in the archives of Germany, the irrevocable losses of the South group from the 5 to 17 of July on the southern face of the army were 172 tanks and 18 SAUs, that is, 190 machines in total. This is confirmed by the German general Heinrici, indicating the irretrievable loss in the 193 machine.

However, our compatriot A.S. did not agree with such assessments. Tomzov, who personally arrived in the archives of Germany and studied German documents. In contrast to Zetterling and Frankson, he took into account the fact that the Germans often first gave the wounded armored vehicles the status of “needs a major overhaul,” and was written off for scrap later. Following the “fate” of the German tanks, he concluded that, taking into account the machines written off later, the real irrevocable losses of the armored vehicles of Army Group South during the period from 5 to 17 in July were not 190-193, but 290 machines, that is, real irrevocable losses Germans were about one and a half times higher than calculated ones.

But even if we take the figure in 290 tanks as a basis, it still turns out that the Soviet troops could only scratch the tank units of the Army “South” group, which, by the lowest estimate, had about 1,500 tanks and SPGs. After all, it turns out that irretrievable losses amounted to no more than 20% of their original number!

And this, according to revisionists, indicates that in fact during the operation “Citadel” the German “Panzervaffe” did not suffer significant damage, and the Germans stopped the operation solely under the influence of the Allies landing in Sicily and the need to transfer tank units to Italy. This is confirmed by the fact that the "defeated" Germanic tank forces subsequently, in the same 1943, fought very effectively against the advancing Soviet forces. And this same point of view is confirmed by such a prominent German commander as E. Manstein, who reports that the German troops under his command were fully capable of completing the Citadel, and if not to achieve complete success with the environment, then at least break the Soviet opposing forces. army, and if it were not for Hitler, who ordered the withdrawal of troops ...

Who is right?


Strangely enough, but in the opinion of the author of this article, both the revisionists and the “traditionalists” are right at the same time. Most likely, the revisionists are absolutely right that the irretrievable losses of German armored vehicles during Operation Citadel (that is, from 5 to 17 in July) are relatively small. But they completely mistakenly believe that the combat effectiveness of tank forces is determined by the irretrievable losses of tanks and SPGs.

In fact, of course, the combat capability of tank forces in terms of materiel is determined not by their irretrievable losses, but by the amount of equipment left in the ranks. And here the Germans were not doing too well, because the same General Heinrici cites data that the German army lost 1 612 tanks and SPG in the "Citadel" operation, of which 323 was irretrievable. Given that the Germans, according to various sources, at the beginning of the operation had from 2 451 to 2 928 units. armored vehicles (interestingly, the upper limit is given not by Soviet historiography, but by Glanz), it turns out that by July 17 they had 35-45% units in combat-ready state. armored vehicles from the original number. And if we take the most common figure in 2 700 machines as a basis, then 40%. Generally speaking, according to the rules of military science, a compound that has suffered a loss in excess of 50% is considered overwhelmed.



Thus, the irretrievable losses of the Germans are really small - from 323 to 485 cars, if the amendment of the respected A.S. Tomazova is true both for the 9th army, advancing from the north, and that the real irretrievable losses were about one and a half times higher than what follows from the operational German reports. But it is just as true that by July 17th the tank units of the Wehrmacht suffered heavy losses and to a considerable extent lost their offensive potential.

And what about the Red Army?


Losses of the Soviet army during the Kursk defensive operation according to G.F. Krivosheev made 1 614 tanks "irrevocably", that is, in this figure are sitting and combat, and non-combat losses, as well as not only destroyed tanks, but also requiring major repairs. That is, logically speaking, if we compare the Soviet and German tank losses, the numbers of 1 614 Soviet tanks against 1 612 German give a much more accurate picture than 1 614 against 323-485 units. irretrievably lost German tanks and SPGs.

Of course, such a comparison will also not be correct, because in 1 612 units. German losses "sit" including machines that failed, but do not require major repairs, and those in 1 614 tanks and self-propelled guns of the USSR are not taken into account. On the other hand, we must not forget that the USSR lost 1 614 tanks in the period from 5 to 23 in July, and the German losses are limited to 17 in July.

But in any case, one thing can be sure firmly - although the Soviet losses of tanks and self-propelled guns (irretrievable plus returnable) during Operation Citadel may have been somewhat superior to German ones, but not by times, and certainly not by orders of magnitude. They were quite comparable, despite the individual blunders of the Red Army commanders, which led to heavy losses. The largest of these mistakes was the battle of Prokhorovka, which took place on July 12 and led to unreasonably high losses of Soviet tanks.

Irreversible loss of armored vehicles as an indicator of the ability to fight


Absolutely worthless, and here's why. Based on the level of irretrievable losses from their general level, according to General Heinrici, or according to updated data, according to A.S. Tomazov, we see that the Germans in the operation “Citadel” irrevocably lost 20-30% of the total loss of armored vehicles. That is exactly the amount of 323-485 of “non-returnable” tanks and self-propelled guns on the total number of German losses in 1 612 machines. It can be assumed that in other battles the percentage of irretrievable losses of German tanks was at the same level, that is, 20-30% of the total number of irretrievable and returnable losses.

At the same time, the irretrievable losses of Soviet armored vehicles averaged 44%, and in some operations 1943-44. could reach 65-78%.

Dear readers probably already understood what was the matter. Let us imagine that the German Panzer Division and the Soviet Panzer Corps entered the battle for the possession of a certain village of New Vasyuki. Both of them are pretty battered in previous battles, and have retained 100 tanks and SPGs. The battle went on all day, and in the evening the parties retreated to their original positions, while the Soviet and German units lost their tanks destroyed by 50.

What conclusions can be drawn from the results of such a fight? Obviously, the battle ended in a draw. Both sides did not fulfill the combat mission, but at the same time prevented the enemy from doing so, and suffered equal losses. So, we can say that the Soviet corps and the German division demonstrated approximately equal martial art.

But from 50 of the wounded Soviet tanks, 20 was completely destroyed, and from German 50 only 10. That is, the irretrievable losses of the Soviet and German armored vehicles are related as 2: 1. And so it turns out that, although in reality the parties were equal in their fighting qualities, but an assessment of irretrievable losses will show that the German division fought twice as good as the Soviet corps!

The same is the case with the Kursk battle. When a person who is interested in military history sees the ratio of irretrievable loss of roughly 4: 1 in favor of panzervaffe, he will naturally conclude that Hitler's troops are overwhelmingly superior to the material part and skill. But if we dig a little deeper, we will see that the ratio of irretrievable losses in fact was not at all four to one, but much better for the Soviet troops, and the general level of losses gives a completely different ratio. Therefore, we need to understand that when we look at the ratio of irretrievable losses for any period of hostilities, or in a particular battle, we see ... it is the ratio of irretrievable losses, but not the ratio of the combat qualities of the parties.

But still, why did the Soviet irretrievable losses of armored vehicles in total losses be 44%, and German - about 30%, that is, one and a half times less? We will talk about this in the next article.
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  1. +16
    11 June 2019 12: 21
    Thanks for the article Andrey. In my humble opinion, and not wanting to offend anyone in the comments, in 1943 the USSR tanks were inferior to the new German ones - "Tiger" and "Panther" (although there were few of them on the Kursk Bulge, but they did things), self-propelled guns like "Ferdinand" there was also no (although this ACS is the result of an error, on the whole the car turned out to be tenacious). Not surprisingly, the losses of our tanks were greater. Allies who had similar to our T-34 "Shermans" believed that to destroy one "Tiger" needed 5 "Shermans", three of which would be lost. In addition, there were tactical miscalculations on the part of the Red Army near Prokhorovka, when the T-34 and T-70 were thrown at the prepared defense of the Germans, reinforced with anti-tank self-propelled guns.
    1. +38
      11 June 2019 13: 06
      Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
      Thanks for the article Andrew. In my humble opinion

      The numbers are quite interesting. But ... at present, according to reports of almost 75 years ago, moreover, often contradicting each other, it is impossible to find the truth.
      Probably, another indisputable fact should be taken into account: troops that suffer heavy losses, even in tanks and other military equipment, even in humans, become incapable of their full-time mission. Those. you can bring the remnants of the regiment into a company or, at best, a battalion, but he will not be able to fight like a regiment, he will not be able to carry out the task of the regiment.
      Moreover, the loss of a number of military-technical categories, which are numerically and not very large (officers, specialists of key military high school, and just experienced, trained infantrymen) is more important than the loss of tanks and other weapons.
      What do we see from the results of the Battle of Kursk?
      Having lost several hundred tanks, planes and relatively few soldiers, German troops lost their strategic initiative, rolled to the Dnieper, and they were driven by a completely bloodless Red Army.
      This result is better than any numbers about the loss of parties.
      Although ours suffered more losses than the Germans and their satellites, but not at times and managed to make up for them. Failures, such as counterattacks on the Voronezh Front, accounted for many successes. If this were not so, then the front would not move to the West, but to the other side.
      1. AUL
        +7
        11 June 2019 17: 13
        Quote: Alekseev
        The numbers are quite interesting. But ... at present, according to reports of almost 75 years ago, moreover, often contradicting each other, it is impossible to find the truth.

        It's all about the "methodology for calculating indicators"! The main thing is to come up with a technique that will provide the desired result. Should I give examples?
        1. +1
          11 June 2019 18: 41
          Yes, if possible, it would be interesting!
    2. +13
      11 June 2019 16: 07
      "And this, according to the revisionists, testifies to the fact that, in fact, during Operation Citadel, the German Panzerwaffe did not suffer significant damage, and the Germans stopped the operation solely under the influence of the Allied landing in Sicily and the need to transfer tank units to Italy." ... By the way, it's not worth attributing the curtailment of Operation Citadel to the landing of the allies in Sicily. Not logical. If the Wehrmacht were doing well near Kursk, i.e. as they had planned, and victory loomed ahead, i.e. the defeat of the Red Army on the central front and a direct road to Moscow, then no landing of the allies in a secondary theater of operations would have forced the Germans to stop the operation. Kursk is much closer to Moscow than from Sicily to Berlin.
      1. +1
        11 June 2019 17: 46
        Quote: papas-57
        By the way, it is not worth ascribing the winding down of the operation Citadel to the landing of the Allies in Sicily.

        I still attribute that? :))))
        1. +3
          11 June 2019 19: 29
          Andrei, your article - in 1943 the army received 23900 medium tanks, of which approximately 15600 t-34s, explain what medium tanks besides the t-34 were released to the ussr in 1943
          1. +1
            12 June 2019 09: 07
            Quote: rayruav
            Andrew, your article -in the 1943 army received 23900 medium tanks

            In general, 16,3 thousand. 23,9 is a resource, that is, it was at the beginning of the year in the line + revenues.
            Quote: rayruav
            explain what average tanks except t-34 released in the USSR in 1943

            lend-lease
        2. +2
          11 June 2019 19: 39
          An interesting opinion on the Prokhorov battle.
      2. 0
        12 June 2019 14: 49
        Quote: papas-57
        the defeat of the Red Army on the central front and the direct road to Moscow,

        A little off topic, but after Kursk, the Germans were not going to Moscow. They were going to walk along the rear of our Southwestern Front.
    3. +1
      11 June 2019 21: 22
      Yes, and thrown from the march battalion and how can there be no loss? hi
      1. +2
        12 June 2019 14: 58
        Quote: Sea Cat
        Yes, and thrown from the march battalion and how can there be no loss?

        Under Prokhorovka, in general, the introduction of 5 GWA was disgusting. Not from the intended deployment line, without engineering reconnaissance of the area and taking into account the terrain, without simple reconnaissance of the alleged enemy, artillery preparation and artillery support. About 2 VA it is generally said that she covered herself with shame these days. Much was not right. But today it’s just to argue, then there were completely different opportunities, other circumstances. The main thing is that the overall result satisfied us.
    4. +2
      12 June 2019 04: 14
      Until the commander, the normal walkie-talkie and MkIV instruments, who were relieved of their duties as a gunner, appeared, our tank crews saw too little on the battlefield and were too poorly controlled.
    5. +2
      12 June 2019 15: 24
      For the Nazis fought the French, Hungarians, Italians, Spaniards and all sorts of Czechs with Slovaks. Didn’t they have tanks? Why are their losses in the war between ours and the Germans not taken into account. On len-lease: yes, huge help, in some respects critical. But, damn it, the whole (!) Europe worked for the Germans, except England. All Carl!
      1. 0
        16 June 2019 09: 04
        Quote: Oleg2003
        For the Nazis fought the French, Hungarians, Italians, Spaniards and all sorts of Czechs with Slovaks.

        The Poles fought for us, too, and the French, Karl. You can also say that the British and Americans
      2. 0
        1 July 2019 16: 27
        And all the USA worked for the USSR
    6. 0
      15 June 2019 10: 40
      They were inferior by April 42, when a division arrived on the Kerch Peninsula with new m4s with 50 and 75 long-barreled guns. They had a clear order to work on tanks. There were not many of them yet, but they gave us a headache (Kerch defensive operation)
    7. -2
      17 June 2019 13: 48
      And here let me correct you
      [i] SPG like "Ferdinand" also did not exist [/ i
      ALREADY WERE ALREADY IN THE FORCES
  2. +4
    11 June 2019 12: 24
    Haste (without preliminary reconnaissance) led to the tragedy of the 29th tank corps of the Red Army near Prokhorovka, when German tanks shot Soviet tanks from cover. Total: Germans lost 10 vehicles, we have 253.
    1. +6
      11 June 2019 13: 10
      Rotmistrov estimated the quantity of equipment as follows: "... In general, in our army with attached tank formations, there were about 850 tanks and self-propelled guns." In the area of ​​the Oktyabrsky state farm, the 18th and 29th tank corps attacked - a total of 348 tanks.
      How could one 29th lose as much as 253? Do not explain where you got these numbers?
      1. +3
        11 June 2019 13: 50
        knn54 (Nikolai) Today, 13: 24
        Beringovsky (Alexey) Today, 14: 10

        ,,,
        1. +4
          11 June 2019 16: 04
          thanks for the scan - curious data from 95 T-35 irretrievably lost 75 - 79% ...
      2. 0
        11 June 2019 16: 27
        Quote: Beringovsky
        In the area of ​​the Oktyabrsky state farm, the 18th and 29th tank corps attacked - a total of 348 tanks.

        If you take Zamulin, then:
        - from the structure of 18 shopping malls at 17:00 on 11.07.43/68/34 reached the concentration area of ​​58 T-70, 18 T-4, XNUMX MK-XNUMX.
        - from structure of 29 shopping malls at 16:00 on 11.07.43/123/34 reached the concentration area 81 T-70, XNUMX T-XNUMX. Plus an incomprehensible number of self-propelled guns (no breakdown on the go / on the go / under repair).
      3. -2
        17 June 2019 13: 50
        ... on the principle of "write more than their bastard feel sorry for", just the opposite
    2. +5
      11 June 2019 14: 05
      Naturally advancing, they suffer heavy losses, and in this case the criminal haste of our command, when the Germans knocked out our tanks from an ambush.
      In war, procrastination is dangerous and haste is no less dangerous. In this case, our command believed that the Germans were retreating, which means there would not be
    3. +3
      11 June 2019 19: 37
      Nicholas, the Germans occupied the area where our tank units were supposed to be deployed and managed to equip anti-tank forces overnight, we had to cancel the offensive in this sector, but the heads of the generals flew, and this is unacceptable for us (the system is still the same from tsarism to this day) therefore such losses
  3. 0
    11 June 2019 12: 29
    And so it turns out that, although in reality the parties were equal in their combat qualities, an assessment of the irretrievable losses will show that the German division fought twice as good as the Soviet corps!
    over the Reichstag our banner of Victory. so who is better at war?
    1. -13
      11 June 2019 14: 34
      Quote: Aerodrome
      over the Reichstag our banner of Victory. so who is better at war?

      1. Wehrmacht.
      2. Suppose, due to circumstances absolutely not dependent on the Red Army (say, after Kahn Monti was replaced by Alekskander), over the Reichstag is not "our" banner, but some other. What does it change?
      1. +2
        11 June 2019 15: 08
        If Adolf Hitler fought on the Eastern Front instead of the Western Front during World War I, he would know how Russian soldiers are fighting. And I probably would have thought well before the attack on the Soviet Union. The soldiers of the Red Army were eager for battle and sought to stop the enemy at all costs - unlike, for example, the same French who had chosen to surrender in 1940 and for 42 days of battles from May 10 to June 22 surrendered in number of 1 900 000 people.
        1. +1
          11 June 2019 15: 36
          Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
          If Adolf Hitler fought on the Eastern Front instead of the Western Front during World War I,

          Took off.
          Let me remind you that WWI in the East, Germany won.
          Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
          and 42 days of fighting from May 10 to June 22 surrendered in the amount of 1 people.

          Summer of the 41st we will remember, no?
          1. +7
            11 June 2019 16: 08
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Let me remind you that WWI in the East, Germany won.

            1) you are mistaken, it was in the East that it lost - our blow to East Prussia thwarted the attack on Paris, the war turned into a long one ...
            2) you forget that in the west there was no army AB bully
            1. -3
              11 June 2019 17: 02
              Quote: ser56
              mistaken, it was in the East and lost

              From Narva to Rostov-on-Don
              Quote: ser56
              our strike on East Prussia thwarted an attack on Paris

              Yes, yes, not a millionth Anglo-French group, but a battered илиilina saved France.
              Quote: ser56
              in the west there was no army AB

              You wanted to attach Adolf to the AB army, or what?
              1. +3
                11 June 2019 18: 36
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                From Narva to Rostov-on-Don

                You are about RIA, or about that rabble. what formed after the February?
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                and the beaten Zilinsky saved France.

                so then the Franks themselves thought ... read Ignatieff ...
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                You wanted to attach Adolf to the AB army, or what?

                Do you think this is an argument? bully sorry for you ...
                1. -8
                  11 June 2019 19: 54
                  Quote: ser56
                  You are about RIA, or about that rabble. what formed after the February?

                  And these are not the same people? Or are you alluding to the White movement, which lost this Civil to this rabble?
                  Quote: ser56
                  so then the Franks themselves thought ... read Ignatieff ...

                  When the French government asked, “Where is all the money that we gave the Russians?”, What should they answer?
                  Quote: ser56
                  sorry for you ...

                  At least someone is sorry for me.
                  Find out, if it doesn’t make it difficult, with Aristarkh Ludwigovich, in what army he would like to see on the eastern front of the All-Russian Federal High-Tech Fleet.
                  1. +1
                    13 June 2019 12: 44
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    And these are not the same people?

                    the army does not consist of people, but fighters shackled by discipline ...
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    Or are you alluding to the White movement, which lost this Civil to this rabble?

                    Yes, white lost and this is a tragedy of Russia! Alas, they did not know how to lie like that and were not so cynical as the Bolsheviks ... But for their stupidity the peasants paid for collectivization ...
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    When the French government asked, “Where is all the money that we gave the Russians?”, What should they answer?

                    well, clean scoop ... bully the answer is banal - you get% ...
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    Find out if not difficult

                    I do not serve .... hi
                    1. -3
                      13 June 2019 13: 25
                      Quote: ser56
                      the army does not consist of people, but fighters shackled by discipline ...

                      What do poor Germans do? Who was, with that and fought.
                      Quote: ser56
                      Alas, they did not know how to lie and were not so cynical as the Bolsheviks ...

                      All have their drawbacks. But you are right, a revolution is such a thing that, most likely, some Vladimir Ilyich Lenin will win. This is a word about the beautiful Russia of the future.
                      Quote: ser56
                      the answer is banal - you get%

                      Who exactly received the percentage? Foch?
                      Quote: ser56
                      I do not serve ....

                      But you got into this conversation for some reason.
                      1. 0
                        13 June 2019 13: 39
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        do poor Germans do the same? Who was, with that and fought.

                        the question is not for the Germans ... you asked about people, I answered ...
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        All have their drawbacks.

                        by no means, there are shortcomings in people, but there are demons ... hi
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        this is such a thing that some Vladimir Ilyich Lenin will most likely win

                        in fact, the Red Army created and commanded Trotsky, as he led the October Revolution bully The VIL icon was largely created by the IVS to counterbalance Trotsky bully
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        This is a word about the beautiful Russia of the future.

                        wait and see...
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Who exactly received the percentage? Foch?

                        But did he give money? bully something brings you ...
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        But you got into this conversation for some reason.

                        This is an open forum ... request
                      2. 0
                        13 June 2019 14: 27
                        Quote: ser56
                        This is an open forum.

                        Aristarkh Ludwigovich suggested sending Adolf to the East. You remember AB for some reason.
                        Quote: ser56
                        something brings you ...

                        Again. What makes you think that the discussion of RI by France cannot be explained solely by internal reasons? Are the French very sincere people?
                        Quote: ser56
                        commanded by Trotsky

                        That's OK too.
                        Quote: ser56
                        by no means, there are shortcomings in people, but there are demons ...

                        The people who lost to the Bolsheviks had not so few flaws.
                        Quote: ser56
                        the question is not for the Germans ... you asked about people, I answered ...

                        It was RI and its army. What happened to both of them is not demand from the Germans.
                      3. 0
                        14 June 2019 13: 19
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The people who lost to the Bolsheviks had not so few flaws.

                        of course they were not angels, but compare the personality of Kolchak (a serious polar explorer and scientist, military officer) and the VIL, who wrote political agitation all his life and intrigued, and when he tried to put his theories into practice, he found out that they turned out to be a fool ... go to the NEP .. request
                      4. +1
                        14 June 2019 14: 30
                        Quote: ser56
                        but compare the personality of Kolchak (a serious polar explorer and scientist, military officer) and VIL

                        You see. Sorry for the lyrics, but power is like a woman. It is often achieved not by the one who is the best person, but by the one who really wants and knows how to achieve better than others.
                      5. 0
                        14 June 2019 17: 19
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        and he who really wants and is better than others knows how to achieve.

                        Regarding VILs, you are wrong - the analogy is not correct ... I would say so - who happened to be in the right place at the right time and did not have moral laws inside ... remember "it's late tomorrow" Russia was not lucky request
                      6. +1
                        14 June 2019 17: 34
                        Quote: ser56
                        I would say this - who accidentally ended up in the right place at the right time and did not have moral laws inside

                        Somewhat wider. In that place and at that time there were a lot of people. Many of them had much more resources - the army, control over state institutions, electoral results (founding). But they missed the moment (including the moment to shoot Comrade Lenin and Trotsky). And so Lenin and Trotsky did not miss and shot everyone on time, even with tremendous bust.
                        Quote: ser56
                        no luck to Russia

                        She is very unlucky.
                      7. 0
                        14 June 2019 17: 36
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        She is very unlucky.

                        Do not exaggerate - look at the history of China over the past 2 centuries ...
                    2. +1
                      13 June 2019 18: 23
                      Quote: ser56
                      Yes, white lost and this is a tragedy of Russia! Alas, they did not know how to lie and were not so cynical as the Bolsheviks ...

                      But some of them were very skilled in separatism and treason in Russia through relations with the enemy in formally wartime. wink
                      1. 0
                        14 June 2019 13: 20
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        But some of them were very skilled in separatism and treason in Russia through relations with the enemy in formally wartime.

                        is it you deign to write about a sealed wagon? bully or about German financing of the Bolsheviks? hi
                      2. 0
                        14 June 2019 16: 55
                        No. of course. This is me about one of the leaders of the White movement in the south of Russia, the general of the Russian army, who had cut from the lands United and indivisible © its independent state. Then he sent a letter to Emperor Wilhelm asking him to recognize the new state as neutral and to help him with weapons and other means, so that the state spread to Tsaritsyn and beyond. And in response, the general promised the supply of Germany with food and all sorts of preferences for the Germans.
                        And this - even during the First World War. After all, the Whites did not recognize the Raunchy World? Well, they didn’t recognize it, because such a recognition would automatically mean recognition of the legitimacy and legality of the government of the Bolshevik coalition, which immediately translated Belykh into the category of “rebels against the legitimate government”. smile
                      3. 0
                        14 June 2019 17: 15
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        This is me about one of the leaders of the White movement in southern Russia

                        really Kornilov / Denikin / Alekseev? Or are you about Krasnov? So he is not the leader of the White movement ... bully
                      4. 0
                        14 June 2019 17: 55
                        Quote: ser56
                        Or are you about Krasnov? So he is not the leader of the White movement ...

                        In 1918, he was one of the leaders, along with Denikin (and regularly put sticks in Denikin's wheels).
                        Denikin, Kolchak, Krasnov.
                      5. 0
                        14 June 2019 18: 00
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        and regularly put sticks in Denikin’s wheels

                        the Reds had Makhno so what? What do you want to say? that after the collapse of RI foam rose? so this is any revolution ... RI, like the Russian Federation, is a complex conglomerate of peoples and estates, each has its own interests - power has weakened - pulled to the side ... But before the revolution, Western intelligence agencies had on their cats revolutionaries of all stripes, while the Bolsheviks were some of the most cynical ....
          2. 0
            11 June 2019 16: 14
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Let me remind you that WWI in the East, Germany won.

            Because the king was demolished, the revolution decomposed an exhausted and tired army. Before the revolution, soldiers of the Russian Imperial Army were a serious adversary.
            1. BAI
              +1
              12 June 2019 18: 46
              revolution decomposed exhausted and tired army

              What a revolution? Denikin wrote that the Provisional Government decomposed and destroyed the army.
          3. +1
            12 June 2019 11: 31
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Let me remind you that WWI in the East, Germany won.

            and he is right formally the Triple Alliance won - occupying Ukraine (yes, of course, not Petersburg, but KIEV was occupied). They took the military after the victory of the Western Front of the Allies and surrender.
            RI broke up and its individual parts went to the Brest Peace, which did not look like victory at all. The allies did not break up and put it to the end. And the French were the main force there. And they took revenge for the FPV. The truth is not for long ..
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Summer of the 41st we will remember, no?

            except this summer was also 1942 .. no less shameful.
            Until we learned how, we lost the entire personnel army. The Germans did not even know what to do with so many prisoners.
            The USSR cannot be compared with France. We had where to retreat. And they have everything from Paris to the ocean, nothing and everything. European countries on the territory of the dwarf in comparison with the USSR.
            1. 0
              12 June 2019 15: 57
              Quote: Antares
              The USSR cannot be compared with France. We had where to retreat.

              I wrote about this for another reason.

              Most clearly, it has been shown in Africa. Both the British and Germans more than once went back and forth between Tripoli and Alexandria. Almost reached, and stood up - there is no supply.

              The 44th, Patton rushing to the Metz, passes 500 km from Normandy and gets up, the offensive is choking, although there is almost no resistance.
              Montgomery collects all the supplies of the Allies for himself, goes to Arnhem, passes 500 km from Normandy and gets up tight.

              500 km, the best rear you can imagine.

              The depth of operations of the Red Army of the 44th year was 200-300 km (except Manchurian). From Mogilev to Warsaw (Belarusian operation) - 600

              The Germans went non-stop more than 1000 km. in the USSR (which is not France in the sense of roads) and stood near Moscow. The 41-year-old German blitzkrieg was a miracle.

              But one the miracle was not enough. And could not be enough.
              1. +1
                12 June 2019 20: 42
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                The depth of operations of the Red Army of the 44th year ... except for the Manchu

                ))
                1. +1
                  13 June 2019 18: 31
                  This is how the fellow villagers scorch! Everyone knows that the Manchu operation was carried out by Apanasenko on December 10, 1941! wink
              2. +1
                13 June 2019 18: 30
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                The Germans went non-stop more than 1000 km. in the USSR (which is not France in the sense of roads) and stood near Moscow.

                EMNIP, after Smolensk they did get up. For the death of equipment began for technical reasons (motor resource).
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                The 41-year-old German blitzkrieg was a miracle.

                The material basis of which was the rear - both taken into account by Muller-Hillebrand (up to the gross-transport-wars of army groups), and remaining behind the scenes: Ihamnets smile from Todt Organization, RAD, NSKK. Who built bridges for 1 TGr in front of the Kiev boiler there?
                As soon as the Germans in the winter of 1941-42 raked the rear for the sake of the front - that's it, alles kaput. In 1942, the rear was only enough for one direction of the offensive.
                1. 0
                  13 June 2019 19: 09
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  EMNIP, after Smolensk they did get up

                  Hmm, I would have stood like a German after Smolensk.
                  Sorry.
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  The material basis of which was the rear

                  Well, divine intervention in the rear services is extremely rare.
              3. 0
                14 June 2019 17: 21
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                The Germans went non-stop more than 1000 km

                But what did they do near Smolensk before the beginning of October? bully
                1. 0
                  14 June 2019 17: 24
                  Quote: ser56
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  The Germans went non-stop more than 1000 km

                  But what did they do near Smolensk before the beginning of October? bully

                  The defeat of the SWF in the Kiev boiler passed by your attention apparently
        2. -4
          11 June 2019 16: 06
          Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
          The soldiers of the Red Army were eager for battle and at all costs sought to stop the enemy

          recall the number of prisoners in 41-42g? Heavi strength? the picture was noticeably more complicated, which is quite natural after the revolution, war, collectivization, etc ....
          1. +2
            11 June 2019 16: 39
            The stubborn resistance of the surrounded parts of the Red Army forced the Wehrmacht command to keep combat-ready units in its rear, including armored units, which were desperately needed by the front.
            1. -5
              11 June 2019 16: 56
              Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
              The stubborn resistance of the surrounded parts of the Red Army in

              Remember - how many were surrounded by the Red Army in the 41? 2-3 weeks at best ... Compare with Germans 6 - 3,5 ...
              1. +10
                11 June 2019 17: 49
                Quote: ser56
                Remember - how many were surrounded by the Red Army in the 41? 2-3 weeks at best ... Compare with Germans 6 - 3,5 ...

                Well, if we forget about the fact that the Germans killed their transport aircraft, supplying Paulus, and nobody supplied our boilers with anything, then yes, the numbers are overwhelming
                1. +1
                  11 June 2019 18: 31
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Germans ditch their transport aircraft, supplying Paulus

                  they had no way out, otherwise the front would collapse in the South
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  and no one supplied our boilers

                  and this is the stupidity of our command
                  1. +3
                    12 June 2019 09: 10
                    Quote: ser56
                    they had no way out, otherwise the front would collapse in the South

                    The fact is that they had supplies - we don't have
                    Quote: ser56
                    and this is the stupidity of our command

                    No, this is your personal, because even children of primary school age know who had air supremacy in 1941.
                    1. -2
                      13 June 2019 12: 36
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      No, this is your personal, because even children of primary school age know who had air supremacy in 1941.

                      1) you get excited about the children, but it’s understood - there are no arguments, you have to make a sketch of the fan and get personal ... bully
                      2) in 41g there were no fighters with radars, so our transport planes flew over the front line to the partisans and to throw saboteurs.
                      3) I’ll tell you a story - in the winter of 41-42, our landings were large
                      1. 0
                        13 June 2019 19: 14
                        Quote: ser56
                        you get excited about children, but this is understood - there are no arguments, you have to throw a fan on the fan and get personal ...

                        Sergey, you don’t need to cry for personal attacks and transitions. There is a FACT - the Germans had undivided air supremacy in 1941. There is a second fact - in such conditions, the supply of surrounded groups for the Red Army was impossible.
                        You, as always, missed them, or maybe you just hoped that I wouldn’t answer you :) And now, when you have obviously been refuted, you didn’t think of anything more clever than how to get a bargain about jerks and personal insults
                        It would be something to insult ...
                        Attempting to jump from the topic with stories about night sorties is completely out of target, since in a similar way a couple of saboteurs can be thrown, but it is impossible to supply the group of troops.
                      2. 0
                        14 June 2019 13: 14
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Sergey, don’t cry over sketches and transitions to personalities.

                        this is a statement of your departure from the discussion on the essence of the issue ... have not played enough on the Web? bully
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        There is a fact - the dominance in the air in 1941 was unchallenged among the Germans. There is a second fact - in such circumstances, the supply of surrounded groups for the Red Army was impossible.

                        Let's just say that you are falsifying history by denying the obvious!
                        Dominance in the air does not cancel the actions of the other side that our aviators demonstrated in 1941, for example, take the supply of Leningrad by air ...
                        The question is in the desire to understand the importance of the issue of the leadership of the USSR and the Red Army, but it wasn’t ... Just a fact - General Efremov refused to fly away, but the plane flew in .....

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You, as always, missed them, or maybe you just hoped that I would not answer you :)

                        you have high self-esteem ... bully
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        since in this way a couple of saboteurs can be thrown in, but it is impossible to provide supplies to a group of forces.

                        you amuse yourself with a mixture of aplomb and illiteracy - I recommend to google "Vyazemskaya airborne operation" - 4 airborne troops were parachuted at night ...
                    2. -1
                      13 June 2019 12: 39
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      The fact is that they had supplies - we don't have

                      hence the conclusion - the Germans waged a war more professionally ...
              2. 0
                11 June 2019 21: 49
                Yeah. You still compare with the defense of Sevastopol and Leningrad. fool
                1. -2
                  13 June 2019 12: 37
                  Quote: Aqela
                  You still compare with the defense of Sevastopol and Leningrad

                  do you have a self-prop bully In these cases, our troops were supplied - google the words "Road of Life" and "Leader Tashkent" hi
              3. 0
                13 June 2019 03: 21
                Despite the fact that only blitzkrieg was originally planned? You generally realize that for them every day of the delay was a loss, because all plans went to hell even more, ending with the main plan of the war?
                1. -2
                  13 June 2019 12: 38
                  Quote: Vladimir Borisovich
                  Do you realize

                  but is it possible for you that surrounded troops, even with minimal communications and supplies, can fight much longer? hi
                  1. 0
                    15 June 2019 05: 29
                    "It was easy on paper, but they forgot about the ravines" (c). Stop raving about the Second World War.
                    1. 0
                      15 June 2019 15: 31
                      Quote: Vladimir Borisovich
                      Stop raving about WWII.

                      one more nerdy teaser ... bully
        3. 0
          16 June 2019 09: 09
          Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
          in contrast, for example, from the same French who, in 1940, tuned in to surrender, and for 42 days of fighting from May 10 to June 22 surrendered in the amount of 1 people.

          Well, the leadership must have tuned in. And those who later wanted to fight as part of the forces of the Anti-Hitler coalition. Well, what did France have to do then? De facto the war was lost, there were not many forests for partisanism ... Well, Japan eventually surrendered to Finland and what?
      2. +4
        11 June 2019 15: 16
        over the Reichstag our banner of Victory. so who is better at war?

        1. Wehrmacht.


        Whoever lost the war is fighting better?
        Some kind of crooked logic.
        1. -3
          11 June 2019 15: 41
          Quote: glory1974
          Whoever lost the war is fighting better?

          Yes, that happened too. And more than once.
        2. 0
          16 June 2019 17: 54
          Quote: glory1974
          Whoever lost the war is fighting better?

          Paradoxically, but yes. It is enough to calculate the losses at all theaters. In addition, the size of the territory, human reserves, the help of the allies, the resource base affect the result ... The Germans fought two wars on 2 fronts
          1. -2
            17 June 2019 08: 28
            Paradoxically, yes.

            It all depends on the choice of criteria by which to judge. If the criterion of who won the war, then definitely the Red Army is better.
            If you choose as the criterion who opened the most fronts, then the Germans are probably better.
            1. 0
              17 June 2019 18: 26
              Quote: glory1974
              It all depends on the choice of criteria by which to judge.

              You can still judge by the current standard of living
              1. -2
                18 June 2019 15: 40
                You can still judge by the current standard of living

                ? How did the knowledge of the combat regulations and the ability to manage a battalion in battle in 1941 affect the amount of meat and milk you consume in 2019? wassat
                This is from the series "The Effect of Moonlight on the Growth of Telegraph Poles"
      3. +1
        11 June 2019 15: 17
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        1. Wehrmacht.

        I disagree. The USSR did not have a "crushing" advantage either in technology or in manpower. The Wehrmacht fought better in the period 41-43, then they have continuous errors in the command.
        1. -2
          11 June 2019 15: 52
          Quote: Trapper7
          The Wehrmacht fought better in the period 41-43, then they have continuous errors in command.

          Observed, there is no arguing.

          The irreparable loss of the Red Army, the irreparable loss of the Wehrmacht in the East in the 44th?
        2. 0
          11 June 2019 16: 12
          Quote: Trapper7
          there was no "crushing" advantage either in technology or in manpower.

          compare the balance of power in the KOVA at the beginning of the war We have more than 3000 tons, Kleist has about 800, remember the result? Losses 2650 and 185 ...
        3. -2
          12 June 2019 11: 33
          Quote: Trapper7
          The USSR did not have a "crushing" advantage either in technology or in manpower.

          the advantage in technology was in people. But this is not the main thing in the war.
          Yes, and never was. All the same, everything rests on skill.
  4. +4
    11 June 2019 12: 38
    Any offensive operation results in casualties of the advancing as 3 to 1, or even more. And what better tanks ?? No matter how many memoirs of our tankers you read, one German self-propelled gun from an ambush managed to burn THREE of our tanks while it was destroyed. Not to mention the AKHT-AKHTAH which from a far distant hole our tanks were filled with packs. The same thing happened, there was repeatedly material here, as one KV destroyed 22 German tanks. So you can pour water for a long time, but the miscalculations of all sandpipers and others like them, telling how German tanks are picked up with drafts, will not go anywhere. Resting on our laurels is paid for by the blood of ordinary people.
    1. -2
      11 June 2019 19: 54
      Any offensive operation results in casualties of the advancing as 3 to 1, or even more.


      belay

      Germans in 39 how much lost - 5 million? or not any?
      Germans in 40 how much lost - 10 million? or not any?
      Germans in 41 how much lost - 15 million? or not any?
      1. +1
        12 June 2019 11: 36
        it's hard to say which is better
        War wins the upcoming. No defense brings victory.
        The advancing one is always in advantage, since he is free to choose a place, the defender is always one step behind, because he must be ready everywhere.
        Well, if the attacker comes where the defender is ready, then yes. 1-3.
        Only in this regard. And so the attacker strives to advance where the opponent is not ready.
    2. BAI
      -2
      12 June 2019 18: 54
      Any offensive operation results in casualties of the advancing as 3 to 1, or even more.

      Only when the "offensive" is measured in hundreds of meters per day. I looked at the "Memory of the People" combat path of the father's division. 12 days, 4,5 km - the division is removed from the front and to the rear for replenishment. Less than 500 m per day! 12 days - no division! Offensive, so to speak.
      And when the attackers pass 30-40 km per day, there are practically no losses.
      The Germans do not need to be referenced when gnawing defense. If they rested on a solid defense, they did not break their foreheads, but immediately looked for a weak spot and suffered a blow there. But losses during a blitzkrieg are already a general rule.
    3. 0
      13 June 2019 11: 22
      Quote: Forever so
      Any offensive operation gives casualties as 3 to 1,

      But where do you get such numbers? This is to conduct a successful offensive operation requires an advantage over the defenders of at least 3: 1. But this does not mean that the losses coming will also be 3: 1. Advancing can generally suffer less losses than the defenders, with a properly organized attack.
    4. 0
      16 June 2019 17: 57
      Quote: Forever so
      Any offensive operation results in casualties of the advancing as 3 to 1, or even more. And what better tanks?

      Why was it the other way around at 41?
  5. +7
    11 June 2019 12: 49
    since we, for comparison, need only those losses that Germans suffered on German front.

    For a while it hangs ... I suppose, after all, the Soviet-German
  6. +2
    11 June 2019 13: 03
    Quote: knn54
    Haste (without preliminary reconnaissance) led to the tragedy of the 29th tank corps of the Red Army

    so where do you get these stupid tales?
    firstly, not haste. There was another - part of the cover completely lost the battlefield, without leading
    intelligence and without interfering. The Germans deployed the VET all alone and without witnesses. Secondly, a number of management decisions based on incorrect or unverified initial ones. For example, management refused to conduct air reconnaissance. I simply cannot understand such a solution. Thirdly, the troops were advancing on the move along the terrain, which was not only not explored, but also poorly known, the engineering device was not known that
    as a result, the tanks were heavily constrained by terrain and tank ditches and some of our tanks got into our own moat.
    Finally, the German tanks did not shoot from an ambush - at first several T4s and similar vehicles met the advancing wave of our mechanized corps in the forehead, firing from higher elevations (ambush wow!). But the main tank forces came much later - the tigers pulled themselves from the flank.
    The "ambush" was essentially represented by 2 anti-tank guns + deployed other artillery.
  7. +2
    11 June 2019 13: 04
    But still, why did the Soviet irretrievable losses of armored vehicles in total losses be 44%, and German - about 30%, that is, one and a half times less? We will talk about this in the next article.

    Affected by the poor location of the tanks. When the T-34 was pierced through the side of the hull, it often burned out completely, and the "Panzers" had a better chance of being restored.
  8. Eug
    +1
    11 June 2019 13: 09
    The boundary, on which 5 TA was to be deployed according to the plan of Vasilevsky and Vatutin, was occupied by the Germans. When Rotmistrov and Vatutin understood this, they had no choice but to urgently deploy 5 TAs. As a result - the introduction of the army along the axis of the German offensive in a very inconvenient area.
    1. +5
      11 June 2019 19: 55
      except urgently deploy 5 TA


      and wait with an unprepared counterattack in any way?
  9. -10
    11 June 2019 13: 13
    The Germans lost a lot of panthers from our stormtroopers silt 2 which used the cumulative Ptaba pouring them onto the columns of German technology
    1. +9
      11 June 2019 13: 32
      Cumulative. We are not able to write yet, but already a historian.

      To begin with, master this tome, and I’m ashamed of a native speaker.
      1. -10
        11 June 2019 17: 32
        Teach yourself an innovator teacher
        1. +8
          11 June 2019 18: 16
          Firstly, "poking" to strangers speaks of a complete absence of any idea of ​​morality and culture of communication with people, not to mention such a thing as etiquette.
          Secondly, you have made two mistakes in three words.
          First one. On the letter of the appeal are highlighted with commas.
          The second one. A compound compound word is spelled.
          Therefore, apart from the absence of a culture of communication, you also lack a culture of speech. With such a set of "absences" it is better not to approach history.
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. +8
              11 June 2019 21: 36
              Comrade! You on your nickname are not the letters in italics highlighted. Correct. soldier
              1. +2
                12 June 2019 03: 37
                You, Sea Cat, have a wonderful sense of humor. I smiled.
                1. 0
                  12 June 2019 11: 22
                  Thank you, Eugene! hi "Praise is pleasant to the cat," and even more so to the Cat. drinks
  10. -10
    11 June 2019 13: 17
    Quote: Aerodrome
    over the Reichstag our banner of Victory. so who is better at war?

    continue to develop children's show-offs?
    The banner over the Reichstag is not only soldiers, it is aluminum from the USA, and stew from Australia, and the work of the rear.
    1. +12
      11 June 2019 13: 40
      Yes, yes, without stew in any way ..
      Already 600 thousand. t. tossed. Two banks a year for each. How would we win a war without these two cans of stew?
      1. +6
        11 June 2019 20: 00
        The quote is not mine, but I generally agree:

        "According to the Order of the NCO No. 312 of September 22, 1941, according to the main Red Army ration (norm No. 1), the soldiers in the combat unit were to receive 150 grams of meat or (based on the replacement table) 112 grams of stew. During the war years we received 240 tons of stew Divide by daily norms and we get 920.2 billion 2 million 151 thousand 73 days of canned meat supply.
        The war lasted 1418 days. So, American stew could be given 1 meat portions daily throughout the war. Considering that during the war the total number of the Red Army fluctuated on average between 516 and 976 million people (reaching 4 mln by the end of the war), it turns out that every day up to a third of the entire personnel of the Red Army was fed American stew. Not to say that this is small and not essential. "
        and now the numeral:
        467684 tons - canned meat
        296430 tons - pork fat
        or I’m stupid, but the Americans did all the meat supply for our army
    2. +2
      12 June 2019 11: 41
      Quote: yehat
      The banner over the Reichstag is not only soldiers, it is aluminum from the USA, and stew from Australia, and the work of the rear.

      There are quite a lot of names. From equipment and fuel to food. And everything is needed, everything is measured at the cost of life in the war. The blood of our soldiers. At the cost of victories, at the cost of battles.
      Land Liz does not detract from the role of Soviet soldiers. But thanks to him, many here can boast that they live because their grandfathers and great-grandfathers and their descendants survived .. (it’s not even about Victory itself, but price, life and blood.)
  11. +5
    11 June 2019 13: 25
    Quote: Forever so
    Any offensive operation results in casualties of the advancing as 3 to 1, or even more. And what better tanks ??

    You are trying to analyze the fish separately from the aquarium and you will definitely get false conclusions.
    the battle of Kursk was primarily a battle of technology - a huge amount of artillery, hundreds and thousands of tanks, hundreds of aircraft. The Germans even had radio-controlled mine clearance vehicles there.
    All this was also linked with tactics, terrain, army features and even the weather.
    In general, near Kursk, tanks on the defense on both sides were much more effective than attackers.
    But the advancing tank is the surviving infantry behind him. These are reconnaissance firing points for artillery fire.
    In general, try to look in general.
    The same corps of Rotmistrov before the attack suffered heavy losses from a major raid of new hs-129 attack aircraft. The Germans likewise raided from the PTAB used by ILs. But tanks against tanks were still much less common.
    1. +4
      11 June 2019 14: 03
      Yehat
      "... Before the attack, the same Rotmistrov corps suffered heavy losses from a large raid of new hs-129 attack aircraft ..."

      Eh, Yehat-Yehat, how many times have you been told: STUDY MODERN SOURCES !!!
      Oleg Rasstrenin "Stormtroopers of the Luftwaffe. Myths and Reality" - was published in 2012 in the magazine "Aviation and Cosmonautics". Author based on FACTS !!! claims that OUR TANKERS HAVE NOT HAVE SEVERE LOSSES FROM HS-129 !!!
      How else can you explain something ????
      1. -2
        11 June 2019 14: 18
        Quote: fighter angel
        claims that THERE WERE NO LOSSES IN OUR TANKISTS FROM NS-129

        you yourself would check the sources! Rasstrelin analyzes the use of hs-129 in 42, where they were almost useless, and by the summer of 43 they were rearmament on MK103 guns, which were somewhat more effective, learned to put up with French engines a little and this attack aircraft (hs-129b-2) already that he could. However, speaking of Rotmistrov’s army, I meant that the bombardment delayed and stretched a part during the march, which greatly affected the preparation of the battle itself, and not that billions of T34 remained in the ditch.
        1. +2
          11 June 2019 19: 44
          Well, do not get out, and do not carry nonsense!
          All that you have said clearly speaks for the fact that you did not see the work of Rastrenin closely!
          Rasstrenin in the aforementioned work just considers the actions of Hs-129 and the emphasis is precisely on their actions on the Kursk Bulge! Not the 42nd year, as you write!
          And if you were reading Rastrenin, you would know that he was considering the Hs-129 with all types of weapons: from MK101-103, to VK3.7 and VK7.5. The findings are extremely disappointing for the Luftwaffe.
          I will clarify for you again: find this article, in the internet or in "AiK" - 2.2014 and READ ALREADY FINALLY !!!
  12. -1
    11 June 2019 13: 26
    In the first table there are two columns "consisted of 01.01.1943", at the beginning and at the end of the table, with different data. Or at the end you need to read 01.01.1944/XNUMX/XNUMX?
    And who has a typo, the author or Krivosheev?
    1. +1
      11 June 2019 13: 50
      Quote: K-50
      And who has a typo, the author or Krivosheev?

      At the author, alas.
  13. -10
    11 June 2019 13: 28
    Good day! I liked the previous articles, this one is not! Attempts to justify the great losses of Soviet fur. copus, a game with statistics! A simple comparison of those released in the USSR in 1943. tanks with the number of them on the fronts and a similar indicator in Nazi Germany and gives a loss of about 3 to 1.
    1. +3
      11 June 2019 13: 42
      Change your nickname, troll.
      1. -9
        11 June 2019 13: 47
        What to answer, myself ...., learn the story!
    2. +10
      11 June 2019 13: 53
      Quote: Victory Day
      Attempts to justify the great losses of the Soviet fur. Kopusov, game with statistics!

      I knew that many would accept this article in precisely this way. Although the main message of the article is very simple - it was clear to me that many will not be able to perceive it.
      Quote: Victory Day
      A simple comparison of those released in the USSR in 1943. tanks with the number of them on the fronts and the same figure in Hitler's Germany and gives a loss, approximately 3 to 1.

      You do not have a similar indicator of Nazi Germany. Because Soviet statistics take into account tanks with a major overhaul and restored as produced, and the Germans - ONLY newly manufactured equipment.
      You compare warm to soft
      1. -5
        11 June 2019 15: 01
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: Victory Day
        Attempts to justify the great losses of the Soviet fur. Kopusov, game with statistics!

        I knew that many would accept this article in precisely this way. Although the main message of the article is very simple - it was clear to me that many will not be able to perceive it.
        Quote: Victory Day
        A simple comparison of those released in the USSR in 1943. tanks with the number of them on the fronts and the same figure in Hitler's Germany and gives a loss, approximately 3 to 1.

        You do not have a similar indicator of Nazi Germany. Because Soviet statistics take into account tanks with a major overhaul and restored as produced, and the Germans - ONLY newly manufactured equipment.
        You compare warm to soft

        Tanks of the Red Army in 70% were taken from the battlefield taken to the station, where they loaded into trains and brought to the factories? Why didn’t the captured tanks take away?
        1. +6
          11 June 2019 15: 11
          Quote: Victory Day
          Red Army tanks in 70% taken away from the battlefield was taken away at the station

          Where did the figure 70% come from? :))))
          1. +1
            11 June 2019 20: 09
            for a long time did not write comments-- but
            day, it is 1 day, not a year and not eternity
            just drink and hangover can be in 1 day, to study the history of the country and the tragedies here?
      2. +7
        11 June 2019 15: 30
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I knew that many would accept this article in precisely this way. Although the main message of the article is very simple - it was clear to me that many will not be able to perceive it.


        And you do not make excuses.
        Even a person far from military affairs will ask a question.
        Why did the Germans concentrate a huge group for a strategic offensive (we won’t even talk about the depth of the breakthrough.)

        Did not keep the achieved?
        Did NOT keep the source?
        Did not hold in between?
        Did not keep such a line as the Dnieper?

        And rolled back for four months to Zhytomyr that 520 km to the west. This result for our troops in an offensive (and unexpected for the enemy, when the reserves had to be transferred) operation (a series of operations) would be considered successful.
        And where did the power of the Wehrmacht (those groups that he collected for the offensive?

        I have been writing about this for the hundredth time, and are there really so many people who cannot understand the extent of the defeat of the Germans.
        And if you add to this, what happened during the 7 months of the new 1944

        Some kind of unnaturalness -
        Germans always had much smaller losses, but recovered much longer and harder (which was obvious in real life) ..

        Or in statistics. something wrong?
      3. +1
        11 June 2019 16: 25
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        accounts for tanks with overhaul and reconditioned as produced

        interesting and you can trace the ratio of repair and production? Or very difficult?
        1. +2
          11 June 2019 17: 51
          Quote: ser56
          interesting and you can trace the ratio of repair and production? Or very difficult?

          In the USSR it was practically unrealistic, because the tanks were taken over by military acceptance, and they controlled the quality of the tank, but did not notice whether the tank was made again or repaired. German data on the repaired equipment in full is not.
          That is, if they give me a lot of time and archives, I can do something there, but ...
          1. +2
            11 June 2019 18: 34
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            That is, if they give me a lot of time and archives, I can do something there, but ...

            does it make sense? is it not 10-15%?
  14. -1
    11 June 2019 13: 47
    Quote: Beringovsky
    Yes, yes, without stew in any way ..

    but in any way. winter 42-43 for the army without this stew could end very badly, because.
    after summer 42, food stocks were very limited. And don't bring it all to one. I expressed the idea that a lot of things influenced.
    1. 0
      11 June 2019 14: 01
      I’m not taking anything anywhere.
      There is simply no need for these curtsies to the former "allies".
      Germany, too, was far from alone fighting against us and using not only its own resources.
      How many Germans would have fought alone and using only their resources (suppose this) is a big question.
      1. +4
        11 June 2019 15: 38
        Over 50% of explosives are Lend-Lease. How much would you have, having half as many shells? Aviation gasoline is almost the entire Lend-Lease. How many would fly into ours? Cars, communication, the same parsley, there was little domestic. In the food supply, by the way, in addition to the stew, there is still much that sits. It’s great of course, after 75 years, to argue that we would have beaten the Germans with one left, but at that time everything was much more complicated.
    2. -2
      11 June 2019 14: 27
      winter 42-43 for the army without this stew could end very badly

      To argue like this, you must have numbers. We take the strength, take the stew, divide - we get the result.
      And so it is, excuse me, idle chatter.
      Do you have these numbers? I think no.
      1. +7
        11 June 2019 14: 50
        I have the stories of my grandfather, who managed to participate in almost all important battles
        he said porridge, but without stewed allies it would have been much worse
        because without the elementary enzymes contained in the meat, it would be the same thing that happened with the Vlasov army - there, for a soldier to walk 30 meters was a feat.
        And hell, we could arrange Bagration operation without trucks, gunpowder, aluminum, communications from the United States and stews from Australia. The army simply could not advance quickly.
        But not fast - this is the summer of 41 years, where the Red Army drove its muzzle to the table as they wanted.
        Good soldiers are cool, but often more important than others. The Germans drove an excellent cadre army of the tsarist army in WWI because of shell shortage, and Americans, who had poorly trained ground forces, drove an experienced Wehrmacht across France as a whole because of aviation and the general level of supply.
        I repeat - not a good soldier decides everything. Victory is often obtained by adding up many components.
        1. +3
          11 June 2019 15: 23
          You know, but I have the stories of my grandfather (and not just him), who generally did not see this stew.
          And the stories of the wife’s grandfather, who received as many as two banks. And he passed from Kursk to Graz.
          Let's share your grandfather’s stew with mine? That would not be a shame, right?
          In general, it is not serious to say anything in this way. Here are the numbers - this is serious, but you don’t have them.
          1. +1
            12 June 2019 11: 49
            Quote: Beringovsky
            Here are the numbers - this is serious, but you don’t have them.

            can we agree on what is better with "stew" than without?
            Better with gasoline and explosives than without?
            Better with a land lease than without?
            Better to have than not to have?
            Better to end the war sooner and with less loss - than later and bleed yourself completely?
            What is boron cheese about? About reverence to allies or very specific people who used help (by the way, quite specific) for the war? Not all help guarantees victory, but any help will save lives and make a difference.
            Do not want to recognize the meaning of LL. Who admits who is not. A personal matter for everyone.
            I believe that he was important. Otherwise, ours would not have knocked him out; otherwise, the Allies would not have risked the delivery. If nothing was needed, then no one would have steamed ...
        2. +4
          11 June 2019 15: 38
          summer of 41 years, where the Red Army carried a muzzle on the table as they wanted

          Just the way you wanted? Well then, November 7th was not celebrated on Red Square?
          And we could get the hell out of a Bagration operation without trucks, gunpowder, aluminum, communications from the USA and stewed meat from Australia

          And what would the Germans be able to without the resources of their allies and, in general, the whole of occupied Europe? Would you even get to Minsk? Fuck would probably ...
        3. +2
          11 June 2019 16: 16
          Quote: yehat
          The Germans drove the excellent cadre army of the tsarist army in WWI because of shell hunger

          not quite so - a complex of reasons, and they didn’t drive that far ... bully and in 16g the Austrians were already running, who were considered Germans in the Second World War ... hi
        4. +1
          11 June 2019 20: 16
          happened with the army of Vlasov - there for a fighter to go 30 meters was a feat.
          up to the sir-80s in the courtyard a one-legged veteran was playing domino-- HALF A HORN FISH (did not have time to cook?), WENT OUT - about 2 army
        5. -1
          12 June 2019 14: 31
          I like the calculations: the USSR against Germany in tanks. Guys, Romanians, Czechs with Slovaks, Italians, Spaniards, French, etc. fought against the USSR Question: did they have tanks? And if there were, why they are not taken into account in losses against ours, as well as aviation and manpower?
          1. 0
            16 June 2019 18: 09
            Quote: Oleg2003
            Romanians, Czechs with Slovaks, Italians, Spaniards, French, etc. fought against the USSR Question: they didn’t have tanks

            They all had 400 tanks by June 22. Yes, and these tanks were level BT
    3. 0
      11 June 2019 15: 35
      "winter 42-43 for the army without this stew could end very badly," ... but it was not, according to the recollections of my grandfather, despite its absence, they fought. as such, it appeared en masse in parts only at the end of the summer of 44.
  15. +1
    11 June 2019 13: 59
    Attempts to justify the great losses of the Soviet fur. Kopusov, game with statistics!

    ,, you can read the reports of that time on the site "The feat of the people" and display statistics. There are a lot of documents there every day, losses both from the Soviet side and from the German side (about the Battle of Kursk).
    1. +1
      11 June 2019 14: 37
      Quote: bubalik
      Attempts to justify the great losses of the Soviet fur. Kopusov, game with statistics!

      ,, you can read the reports of that time on the site "The feat of the people" and display statistics. There are a lot of documents there every day, losses both from the Soviet side and from the German side (about the Battle of Kursk).

      The battle of Kursk, for the Red Army was a prepared defensive operation, it is not correct to compare the losses, although Rotmistrov spoiled the statistics there too.
  16. 0
    11 June 2019 14: 06
    Oh, Andrew! How deep you dig ...
    1. +3
      11 June 2019 15: 08
      Quote: PilotS37
      Oh, Andrew! How deep you dig ...

      Thank! Someone should :))))))
      1. +3
        11 June 2019 15: 51
        Just trust German and Western "historians" less. All their data must be checked under a microscope, those are still Munchausen. hi
        1. -1
          11 June 2019 17: 52
          Quote: Beringovsky
          Just trust German and Western "historians" less. All their data must be checked under a microscope

          And what am I doing? :))))
      2. +3
        11 June 2019 16: 18
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Thank! Someone should :))))))

        it’s a pity that you find good material, crystallize information, but it seems afraid to draw conclusions from it ... hi
  17. +1
    11 June 2019 14: 07
    Quote: Aerodrome
    And so it turns out that, although in reality the parties were equal in their combat qualities, an assessment of the irretrievable losses will show that the German division fought twice as good as the Soviet corps!
    over the Reichstag our banner of Victory. so who is better at war?

    But at what cost? That is the question
    1. -2
      11 June 2019 20: 18
      But at what cost? That is the question

      revenge --- THE DISH IS COLD, AND THE PRICE IS NOT ACCOUNTED EVER !!!
  18. 0
    11 June 2019 14: 10
    As always, balanced and objective.
  19. +2
    11 June 2019 14: 25
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: Victory Day
    Attempts to justify the great losses of the Soviet fur. Kopusov, game with statistics!

    I knew that many would accept this article in precisely this way. Although the main message of the article is very simple - it was clear to me that many will not be able to perceive it.
    Quote: Victory Day
    A simple comparison of those released in the USSR in 1943. tanks with the number of them on the fronts and the same figure in Hitler's Germany and gives a loss, approximately 3 to 1.

    You do not have a similar indicator of Nazi Germany. Because Soviet statistics take into account tanks with a major overhaul and restored as produced, and the Germans - ONLY newly manufactured equipment.
    You compare warm to soft

    Soft and warm are statistics, losses! Do you want to say that our echelons brought tanks in one direction, and the wrecked ones, which still had to be delivered from the battlefield to the stations, were brought in almost all the other way! It is strange then that the Germans did not drag, would create fur. cases from panthers. In the previous articles and in this one, too, you mentioned the modernization of the T-34, I wonder if there is data how many modernized, relatively simplified ones were released? And the capabilities of the T-34 Koshkin, relatively simplified and modernized machines?
    1. +1
      11 June 2019 14: 49
      Quote: Victory Day
      Would you like to say that our trains in one direction brought tanks, and in the other, the wounded, which had to be delivered from the battlefield to the stations, were almost completely carried away!

      Of course. So did we and the Germans, and the Germans partially repaired their tanks in the cities captured from us, and partly - dragged them into the Reich. For example, in the month of 4 (October 1943- January 1944), the Germans dragged the 603 tank to Germany for repair alone (and not the fact that this is the correct figure), but how many were restored at our own factories.
      Quote: Victory Day
      It is strange then that the Germans did not drag, they would create fur. cases of panthers.

      What for?:)))
    2. +3
      11 June 2019 18: 24
      Quote: Victory Day
      It is strange then that the Germans did not drag, they would create fur. cases of panthers.

      They dragged everything (there were enough trophies for two hundred SU-76i). It was just that the most intact ones were chosen from the trophies - because there was no opportunity to order spare parts from Henschel, MAN or Krupp for the equipment that was acquired. smile
      Engaged in trophies (and Lend-Lease) 82 BTRZ in Moscow:

      1. +1
        12 June 2019 11: 55
        Quote: Alexey RA
        It’s just that the most intact ones were chosen from the trophies - because there was no opportunity to order spare parts for the equipment from Henschel, MAN or Krupp

        yes, not like the current ones. Although the Germans were loaded and could not sell "to the left" (in that total war)
        Thank you, I knew about the trophy technique but I am surprised that so much.
        Repair is semi-handmade.
        1. 0
          13 June 2019 15: 40
          Quote: Antares
          Repair is semi-handmade.

          Repair is just factory, in the conditions of BTRZ. But the spare parts are used, from other trophies.
    3. 0
      17 June 2019 18: 29
      Quote: Victory Day
      would create fur. cases from panthers.

      Caliber guns coincided? Gasoline again to bring instead of a solarium
  20. 0
    11 June 2019 14: 36
    "Soviet tank crews were trained much worse than the German ones who received combat experience in Poland and France," but this is not entirely true: how many Germans had such crews left by the summer of 1943? If we talk about 1941, then yes, the Germans had trained and experienced crews, and by the summer of 1943 they had very few such crews. Even Carius, who is less of a fantasy than Rudel, admits that there were few experienced tankers.
    The main thing in which we were inferior was the training of driver mechanics. This was written back in the Red Star in 1977. Figures were given there when the tank died due to unprepared mech-waters.
    1. 0
      11 June 2019 14: 50
      Quote: vladcub
      and this is not quite true: how many Germans have 1943 for the summer

      Of course, but I didn’t mean it :))) It's about 41 year
    2. +3
      11 June 2019 15: 32
      Quote: vladcub
      and this is not entirely true: how many Germans had such crews by the summer of 1943?

      Nevertheless, the general level of training of Wehrmacht tankers was higher for the simple reason that the duration of training in the German army was much higher than that of ours.
      1. +1
        11 June 2019 18: 17
        I'm afraid to make a mistake, but our driver mechanics, the training was within 15 hours, and the Germans much higher
  21. The comment was deleted.
  22. +3
    11 June 2019 15: 13
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: Victory Day
    Would you like to say that our trains in one direction brought tanks, and in the other, the wounded, which had to be delivered from the battlefield to the stations, were almost completely carried away!

    Of course. So did we and the Germans, and the Germans partially repaired their tanks in the cities captured from us, and partly - dragged them into the Reich. For example, in the month of 4 (October 1943- January 1944), the Germans dragged the 603 tank to Germany for repair alone (and not the fact that this is the correct figure), but how many were restored at our own factories.
    Quote: Victory Day
    It is strange then that the Germans did not drag, they would create fur. cases of panthers.

    What for?:)))

    This proves once again, the statistics of losses is 3 to 1. The total number of tanks at the front is approximately equal, the output of our plants is three times more.
    Why))), is the panther one on one three t-34s worth it, or not?
    1. 0
      11 June 2019 15: 24
      Quote: Victory Day
      This again proves the loss statistics of 3 to 1.

      M-dja :)))) That is, even after detailed explanations, you did not understand that the ratio of 3 to one in nature did not exist
      1. +4
        11 June 2019 16: 24
        Tank asses, Soviet and German, compare the number of top 10 wrecked vehicles on both sides, at the time of 1943, August, a depressing picture, but this is only the tip of the iceberg, let's decide whether we are discussing the number of wrecked tanks or dead tankers?
        1. +2
          11 June 2019 17: 56
          Quote: Victory Day
          Tank assy, ​​Soviet and German, compare the number of damaged machines at 10 best on both sides

          But what’s the point? :))) The Germans created specialized tank units, the task of which was anti-tank fighting, we didn’t. This time. The second. The number of damaged cars is good, and the methods by which these machines were considered will be compared? :)))
  23. +4
    11 June 2019 15: 21
    Thank you for the series of articles, I learned a lot from them, but it seems to me an underestimating level of losses trying to show that the factories deployed in a clean field after a year began to produce products no worse than the giants of the fascist industry supported throughout Europe, we underestimate the feat of the Soviet soldier.
    1. +5
      11 June 2019 15: 29
      Quote: Victory Day
      but it seems to me underestimating the level of losses

      I do not underestimate them, but bring them in line.
      Quote: Victory Day
      trying to show that plants deployed in a clean field a year later began to give products no worse than those of the giants of the fascist industry

      In fact, almost two, if we consider the time of the evacuation of the Kharkov plant
      Quote: Victory Day
      we underestimate the feat of the Soviet soldier.

      We underestimate the feat of the Soviet soldier when we describe him as a poorly armed fighter, capable of gaining the upper hand over the German soldier only at the expense of multiple superiority in numbers
      1. +1
        11 June 2019 16: 32
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        We underestimate the feat of the Soviet soldier,

        No! This has nothing to do with the soldiers - they carried their cross! A terrible loss ratio due to poor preparation of the leadership of the USSR and the Red Army command! Moreover, the main problems began with the senior and especially the highest command staff ... see Rotmistrova, and this is 43 ... again I won’t remember Dubno ...
      2. 0
        12 June 2019 11: 57
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        In fact, almost two, if we consider the time of the evacuation of the Kharkov plant

        and not from scratch.
        2 years of war are extremely many. And critically.
  24. 0
    11 June 2019 15: 23
    Yes, how many copies are broken in the comments, it would seem that the history of the Second World War and WWII was studied up and down since it was relatively recent, and what can we say about the history of the Middle Ages and even more ancient.
  25. 0
    11 June 2019 15: 30
    "It is possible that these are simply inaccuracies in the numbers, but most likely this is a consequence of the lack of accounting for the disposal and return of armored vehicles from overhaul." Given the scrupulousness, disciplinarity and pedantry of the Germans, it is hard to believe in this.
    1. 0
      11 June 2019 17: 58
      Quote: Strashila
      given the scrupulousness, disciplinary and pedantry of the Germans, it is hard to believe it.

      You can believe what you want, questions of religion are sacred to me :)))) Or you can simply study the data available to the Germans - and everything will become clear about their "scrupulousness and pedantry"
      1. 0
        11 June 2019 18: 41
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        and everything will become clear about their "scrupulousness and pedantry"

        they also have a mess, but differently ... bully
      2. +1
        12 June 2019 11: 45
        Andrey, thank you very much for the series of articles, but it seems useless to me to have conversations with sectarians, and it’s surprising how on such a serious resource there are people leaving comments “about the thoroughness and pedantry of the Germans”, i.e. people think in stereotypes, like a German is a strong, neat business executive, and a Russian is an alcoholic gouge, and with this level of argumentation, they enter into a discussion. Either pulling out the memoirs of Wehrmacht "heroes" the storyteller "Hans Christian Carius" is remembered, who was once so brought in in the description of his victories that when he told how he destroyed 17 ISs in the battle near Malinovsky, at the headquarters with a little downcast eyes he was reasonably told, "Fear God Otto", let's at least T- 34-85, on that our brave hero reattached his heart and agreed. And, so I look forward to the continuation of the cycle, and of course the nautical theme, with a timid hope I expect you to take up a cycle of articles about the battle in the Korean Strait !! Best regards, Sergei.
  26. 0
    11 June 2019 15: 36
    Quote: Beringovsky
    And the stories of the wife’s grandfather, who received as many as two banks. And he passed from Kursk to Graz.

    it means he got something else besides stew
    for example, there was a field kitchen that used the same stew.
    I can only repeat that without meat your grandfather would hardly survive the winter.
    1. +3
      11 June 2019 16: 36
      Well, you can immediately see a person unfamiliar with either the Russian hinterland, especially in the non-chernozem region, or with its history. Lived without meat, sometimes. And for a long time. Survived like that.
      Here we have metallurgical plants, during the war they gave metal to the country - and so, did they also feed the metallurgists with American stew? How then did they survive that? Or do you think this is easy work? Or miners, for example ... And my aunt worked at the timber industry farm - for 12 hours branches were cut in the forest, peasants cut down the forest, and women cut branches and dragged them away. That still work in the winter. And somehow, too, without American stew, they managed and survived. The whole country has worked hard, where can you get stewed meat from America at all wink however, survived, right?
      Why are soldiers worse than others?
      1. +3
        12 June 2019 12: 01
        Quote: Beringovsky
        Well, you can immediately see a person unfamiliar with either the Russian hinterland, especially in the non-chernozem region, or with its history. Lived without meat, sometimes. And for a long time. Survived like that.

        the scale of the largest country in the world. The population is extremely uneven. The loss of the country's granaries and industrial potential dramatically worsens the life of everyone else. People can be evacuated, but there is no climate and land. As a result, stocks are melting.
        Either starvation / exhaustion is a drop in the chance of confrontation.
        You will be glad to any help. Mongolia also helped out. And also her help saved many lives. Being non-military help! And how much the military and food saved.
        A soldier needs to be fed better if you want to win.
  27. +1
    11 June 2019 15: 40
    Quote: Eug
    When Rotmistrov and Vatutin understood this, they had no choice but to urgently deploy 5 TA

    Are you a victim of the exam? Why mutter memorized phrases?
    But for some reason, near Kursk, Katukov had a way out not to attack at a disadvantage,
    and Rotmistrov did not have the same situation, and Konev, referring to Rotmistrov’s experience, again had the option not to attack
    Maybe it's easier to stop repeating without thinking? Because what you are saying is some kind of shiz, mowing down the red commanders. And Stalin too, who wanted to shoot Rotmistrov, who had no choice. Stalin is largely accused, but he cannot be accused of hysteria or inconsistency.
  28. +3
    11 June 2019 15: 49
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    We underestimate the feat of the Soviet soldier when we describe him as a poorly armed fighter, capable of gaining the upper hand over the German soldier only at the expense of multiple superiority in numbers

    there is something else to remember. Our soldiers were ready to exchange their lives for something useful.
    not because they did not value their own, but because it was for what and for whom to sacrifice.
  29. 0
    11 June 2019 15: 59
    "exactly the ratio of irrecoverable losses, but not the ratio of the fighting qualities of the parties."
    Let's just say - the curious conclusion of the author ... bully remove the loss ratio from military art is super agitprop ... hi
    "20 were completely destroyed, and only 50 out of 10 were German. That is, the irrecoverable losses of Soviet and German armored vehicles are in a ratio of 2: 1."
    the following conclusions follow from this ratio:
    1) German tanks are more repairable - which is far from true in 43g;
    2) German technical units are more qualified and equipped (equipment and spare parts) - which is possible and true, but by 43g there is no longer a catastrophic difference;
    3) the Germans more effectively hit our tanks, because had more powerful guns - which is true in 43g;
    4) ours hit enemy tanks in fairly easily repairable units - transmission, etc. - which is very possible in 43g - serious damage occurs after breaking through the armor.
    but the author for some reason made other conclusions ... his right ... request

    By the way, probably in all the table there is one error - the second date must be. 01.0.1.44 feel
    1. +4
      11 June 2019 18: 01
      Quote: ser56
      remove the loss ratio of martial art is super agitprop ..

      Specially cited a simple example that it is necessary to compare the total losses, and not returnable. Specially explained that the loss-free losses for us and the Germans were considered in different ways. Alas, it turned out that you do not mind. Sadly crying
      1. -3
        11 June 2019 18: 38
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        He specially cited a simple example that it is necessary to compare the GENERAL losses, and not the irrevocable ones.

        aha, excluding the proportion of lightly wounded with the dead / prisoners in the total .... bully
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Alas, it turned out that you did not mind. Sadly

        see above - you yourself did not understand the criticism ... bully
  30. +2
    11 June 2019 16: 06
    Andrei, your article helped to take a correct look at the state of things and the ratio of losses, which had previously been puzzling. I understand that in order to write your article, you had to think carefully about the issue under study - and thank you!
    1. +1
      11 June 2019 18: 02
      Thank you, Andrew! I am very glad that this article could help you in some way. For this and try hi
  31. 0
    11 June 2019 16: 18
    Quote: Beringovsky
    Just the way you wanted? Well then, November 7th was not celebrated on Red Square

    Do you think November 7th is summer?
  32. -2
    11 June 2019 16: 33
    Are there any data on losses of German tanks and self-propelled guns for purely technical reasons? and as far as I know, the brand new German "Panthers" on the Kursk Bulge were mostly out of order before reaching the front line precisely for technical reasons. Those. most of the "Panthers" did not take part in the battles through no "fault" of the enemy.

    On the Kursk Bulge, as one of the German generals put it, "the Germans grabbed the bull by the horns and did it in a place not most convenient for the Germans themselves." From this, the real successes of the Germans in terms of inflicting large losses on the Red Army in the summer of 1943 were not the best, although the Red Army did indeed suffer quite heavy losses.
    1. +4
      11 June 2019 18: 16
      Quote: NF68
      and as far as I know, the brand new German "Panthers" on the Kursk Bulge were mostly out of order before reaching the front line precisely for technical reasons. Those. most of the "Panthers" did not take part in the battles through no "fault" of the enemy.

      They were beaten quite well in battle (Tomzov / Ulanov. "The debut of the Panthers") - primarily because of the clouding of mind that gripped the Panzerkommando. Otherwise, it is impossible to explain the use of the notorious 5 TPB on July 6-1943, 39 - well, how in the fourth year of the war could it occur to unite 39 TP and TP GD under the general command of the hastily created 10 TPB, without providing this command of personnel and communications? As a result, 39 TP fought in our positions with the "naked" tanks of their two tank battalions - without interaction with GD, without reconnaissance, without communications.
      If we take the aforementioned article by Tomzov / Ulanov, then the number of "Panthers" was reduced in this way:
      July 4: after unloading on the way to the starting positions, the regiment lost 16 vehicles (for technical reasons).
      July 5: 2 hours after the start of the offensive, 39 TP ran into an anti-tank ditch, densely strewn with mines, and even swampy (our sappers were not too lazy and launched a stream from the nearest ravine along the bottom of the ditch). Another minus 25 "Panthers" (stuck, blown up by mines, destroyed by artillery fire on a cluster of tanks).
      Then there was a battle for Cherkasskoye with divisions of the 67th rifle division (plus 245 otp and 1440 sap) and the army 27th Iptabr. At first, the "panthers" badly battered 245 ransomware (17 tanks were lost, including all the available "Li"), and in the evening, pursuing our retreating units, they managed not to overcome the remaining 245 otp "Stuarts" (51 TB "panthers" could not break through our defenses "due to strong defensive fire of 10 dug enemy tanks at height")
      Result - by the next day in 39 tp, from 50 to 80 combat-ready tanks remained.
      July 6: "rainy day" 39 TP. Communication with GD was lost, interaction also. The regiment's tanks, without infantry, drove into a minefield. And then we met with yesterday's acquaintances from 27 iptabras. The fire was added by the artillerymen of the army artillery regiments of the 6th Army. The commander of the lead 52 TB "Panther" fell into a stupor - and the battalion stood up, to the delight of our gunners.
      The enemy’s heavy artillery fired exceptionally accurately at our crowded tanks. From the first volley, my company lost two tanks - one fell into a deep trench, and the second - the tank of the commander of the 4th platoon of sergeant-sergeant major (the original letter in English indicates the title Master Sergeant) Grunda - was completely destroyed by a direct hit, the whole crew died . Since the situation was extremely dangerous, and there were no orders from the battalion commander, I ran to his tank as quickly as I could. It was urgent to leave the fenced area to avoid further losses. When I looked down at the tower, I saw the battalion commander trembling with terror. It was Major Tebbe from the Tank School in Putlos, whom I remembered as captain at the time I was studying there. He was sent last night to replace the sick before the onset of the Sievers battalion commander. It was clear that the baptism of fire that he had to experience on the first day at the front was too strong.

      The result - by the evening, 39 combat-ready Panthers remained at 40 TP.
      July 7: The hunt for the Red Data Book animals continued. At the end of the day, 39 otp shrank to 10 Panthers.
      1. -1
        12 June 2019 16: 19
        Quote: Alexey RA
        They were beaten quite well in battle (Tomzov / Ulanov. "The debut of the Panthers") - primarily because of the clouding of mind that gripped the Panzerkommando.


        In battle "Panthers" beat much less successfully than 4s or 3s. Especially if the frontal armor of the hull and turrets was hollowed out. The losses of the "Panthers" due to numerous shortcomings were more significant.
        1. 0
          13 June 2019 16: 14
          Quote: NF68

          In battle "Panthers" beat much less successfully than 4s or 3s. Especially if the frontal armor of the hull and turrets was hollowed out.

          So in 1943 and the "four" in the forehead badly made their way.
          In addition, enthusiasts to shoot in a frontal projection from a direct range by 1943 were pretty much knocked out - and the anti-tank defense system finally began to be built on the principles of flank and oblique fire. And on board the Panther has less armor than the T-34. smile

          Yes technical reasons also are different:
          At 11.00, the headquarters of the 48th shopping mall received a message that the brigade had left the battle and was located about half a kilometer from the fork. Withdrawing the brigade, or rather, the Panther tank regiment from Colonel Strachwitz’s battle, forced the minefield in the Syrtsev region, skillfully masked by our sappers, to which one of the Panther battalions had suffered substantial losses. In the documents of the 48th shopping mall, this moment is passed over in silence. In this document, the main losses of the T-5 tanks are attributed only to technical malfunctions.
          © Zamulin
          Moreover, the Germans themselves write about mines:
          That was July 7th. Together with the Great Germany division, we occupied the village of Dubrova, and then advanced further towards Syrtsev. During the breakthrough, we supported the 1st motorized infantry battalion of the division. Our infantrymen ousted the Red Army from the trenches, it was a very powerful attack. But then we, the tankers who were following the infantry, got into a large minefield. And the commander, whom we received before the attack instead of ours, was either late, or did not react at all, and all the tanks moved to the minefield. When we were crowding there, the Thirty-Fours began to shoot us from everywhere from the shelters, right and left and in front. At that moment, we had serious losses. About twenty black and burning “panthers” remained on that minefield. After that, the brigade’s command removed the surviving tanks from the field, they circumvented this trap, discarded the Russian “thirty-four”, who dug in there, and the offensive continued.
          1. 0
            14 June 2019 15: 41
            Quote: Alexey RA
            So in 1943 and the "four" in the forehead badly made their way.


            In order to destroy Panther in the forehead, 122 mm were needed. or 152 mm.
  33. -4
    11 June 2019 16: 36
    Quote: ser56
    3) the Germans more effectively hit our tanks, because had more powerful guns - which is true in 43g;
    4) ours hit enemy tanks in fairly easy to repair

    42-year is a gun ZIS-2, which beat German tanks as wanted and where wanted
    45, of which there were many, but which almost didn’t pierce anything in the forehead, could only cripple slightly.
    and PTRD, which hit only at vulnerable points and rarely beyond 100 meters.
    the Germans had cannons pak40 and 41, which without much difficulty with 500m and with some difficulties beyond 800, pierced the t34, but they did not fit into the blitzkrieg - they were poorly transported, had too much impact, expensive shells and guns themselves. So overall there was approximate equality.
    tanks at the front appeared with new guns (shtug-3, t4 v2), but their share was not yet large.
    1. +2
      11 June 2019 17: 01
      Quote: yehat
      42-year is a gun ZIS-2, which beat German tanks as wanted and where wanted


      In the 1941 year of such anti-tank guns, an 371 unit was produced and most of these guns were lost as early as the 1941 year. In 1942 year 57 mm. anti-tank guns in the USSR did not produce at all. Those before resuming the release of 57 mm. guns in the 1943 year, such guns in the Red Army were piece goods and the use of a small number of such guns in the 1942 year brought the Red Army little benefit.
      1. 0
        11 June 2019 17: 08
        i mixed up
        I mean f-22 and ZIS-3 76 millimeter,
        as well as 76mm guns of the 1902 and 27 model of the year
        all of them calmly pierced the shtug and txnumx in the forehead.
        1. +4
          11 June 2019 17: 36
          Quote: yehat
          i mixed up
          I mean f-22 and ZIS-3 76 millimeter,
          as well as 76mm guns of the 1902 and 27 model of the year
          all of them calmly pierced the shtug and txnumx in the forehead.

          In theory.
          In practice, the NKBP entered into force, which even in July 1942 could not provide the Red Army with armor-piercing shells BR-350A for 76-mm divisions.
          Here is the report of NII-48 "The defeat of the armor of German tanks." The first paragraph removes all questions about the armor penetration of 76 mm guns.
          In view of the lack of the required number of kamor armor-piercing shells in artillery units, the shooting of German tanks from 76,2-mm divisional guns with projectiles of other types is common ...
          1. Armor-piercing continuous shells. They break through the armor of German tanks from any direction. They have insufficient armor action. They cause fire and tank damage only if they get into the engine, gas tanks or ammunition ...
          2. High-explosive fragmentation steel grenade. It can be used when firing at light (in some cases medium) tanks during their oblique movement on the sides, or in the turret ring, which leads to the destruction of side sheets, or to their detachment from the mounts, as well as jamming of the tower and damage to tower mechanisms, including optical sights and observation devices ... In a number of cases, there was a cessation of the turret’s rotation ability, and in the case of howitzers firing, and a light tank’s tower being disengaged from the mounts ...
          3. Shrapnel is still one of the main armor-piercing shells, since it can penetrate up to 300 mm of armor at a range of up to 35 meters, which allows it to be used successfully against light tanks, and at close range (up to 200 m) and against medium side airborne armor tanks ...
          4. An incendiary projectile is not effective enough, but in some cases it can be used in direct fire ... It is advisable to fire an incendiary projectile at a single tank with concentrated battery fire.
          5. A high-explosive steel grenade is most effective in case of firing on the sides of the tank during its oblique movement ...
          6. Fragmentation grenade of steel cast iron can only be used when firing at the tank’s tower "to blind" ...
          None of the types of shells considered can fully replace chamber armor-piercing shells, since they do not have the necessary armor penetration for this (up to 60 mm of armor) and the armored action of rupture gases and fragments ...
          © Ulanov / Shein
        2. 0
          12 June 2019 16: 16
          Quote: yehat
          i mixed up
          I mean f-22 and ZIS-3 76 millimeter,
          as well as 76mm guns of the 1902 and 27 model of the year
          all of them calmly pierced the shtug and txnumx in the forehead.


          Not everything was so smooth. Just at that time, which was the most difficult for the country, the USSR industry was forced to produce what could be produced as soon as possible and in large quantities. Otherwise, one could have lost the war.
    2. +2
      11 June 2019 18: 04
      Quote: yehat
      42-year is a gun ZIS-2, which beat German tanks as wanted and where wanted

      1941 produced 371 ZIS-2
      In 1942 g - 0 (ZERO) ZIS-2
      In 1943 d - 1855, and in the second half of the year, near Kursk there were almost none
      1. Fat
        0
        13 June 2019 11: 18
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        1941 produced 371 ZIS-2
        In 1942 g - 0 (ZERO) ZIS-2
        In 1943 d - 1855, and in the second half of the year, near Kursk there were almost none

        This is quite understandable. The problem with the release of ammunition is that there was no production of 57-mm shells before in the USSR, the deployment of their manufacture after the outbreak of war was fraught with a number of difficulties associated, in particular, with the evacuation of the plant.
        Even an excellent VET without a sufficient number of shells at the front line is not needed, from the word at all.
        But 76mm divisional ZIS-3 ("ratsh-boom") were in the troops. True, their armor-piercing abilities were not at the level ...
        1. 0
          13 June 2019 12: 40
          Quote: Thick
          This is quite understandable. The issue with the release of ammunition

          They were removed from release, not because of that, but because they considered it to be excessively powerful.
          1. Fat
            0
            13 June 2019 13: 11
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            They were removed from release, not because of that, but because they considered it to be excessively powerful.

            Officially, an overly powerful VET. And in conscience: a fair amount of marriage in the production of trunks and a high cost compared to the 45th.
            With the outbreak of war, ZIS-2 guns were equipped with anti-tank divisions, as well as anti-tank regiments of the High Command Reserve. The divisions were equipped with 3 batteries with a total of 12 guns, and in the regiments of the RGK the total number of ZIS-2 guns reached 24 units.
            ZIS-2 in the 41st produced from the expectation that tanks and French trophies with very serious armor could appear at the front.
          2. +2
            13 June 2019 18: 19
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            They were removed from release, not because of that, but because they considered it to be excessively powerful.

            They were withdrawn from production because they occupied capacities suitable for the production of 76 mm divisional guns. Of which, by September 01.09.41, 3094, the army had lost as many as 6463 units (and by the end of the year - 8513 units). Of the XNUMX available. And which were required not only to make up for losses, but also for the formation of new compounds. Without these guns, the already formed rifle divisions could not be sent to the front.
            The industry did the impossible - in a couple of months, it increased the production of 76-mm guns tenfold. But this was not enough. Therefore, it was the division that won the fight between the highly specialized VET and the "universal" division. For the front needed infantry. But not just men with rifles, but full-fledged connections with artillery regiments.
            The complexity of its production turned out to be an additional stone in the garden of the 57-mm anti-tank gun - for the same time, 3-4 divisions could be made with the same money.

            And they began to write about "excess power" later - when it was necessary to get around the issue of huge losses of materiel of artillery in the first months of the war, as well as the fact that the formation of new SD was not provided for by any plans.

            Uv. M. Svirin wrote that the withdrawal from production of the ZiS-2, allegedly due to excessive power, did not in the least prevent the continuation of production in 1941 of an even more powerful anti-tank gun - PTP-41 (85-mm anti-aircraft gun of a simplified design without a kit for working with PUAZO). The production of PUAZO lagged behind the production of "battery kits" 85-mm AU, so that part of the 52-K was made in an anti-tank version.
  34. +5
    11 June 2019 16: 44
    But nevertheless, why the Soviet irretrievable losses of armored vehicles in the total losses amounted to 44%, and German - about 30%, that is, one and a half times less?

    the arguments of some historians and beaten Hitler generals about insignificant losses in tanks, in particular, in the Tigers and Panthers in the Battle of Kursk, look unconvincing. And attempts to conceal real losses in tanks by accounting for broken and damaged tanks that remained on the battlefield under German control, including those not evacuated under the column “tanks available for short-term and long-term repairs”, were defeated by Adolf Hitler himself, on a daytime meeting on November 19, 1943 with General Zeitler, chief of the General Staff: “They tell me about the quick restoration and repair of tanks that are temporarily out of order, but they never return to duty. And when I ask, when will these tanks be combat ready again, I always hear the answer: in the very near future. "
    1. +3
      11 June 2019 16: 53
      On both sides they were afraid to speak, it was and will be.
  35. +2
    11 June 2019 16: 57
    During the advance of the Red Army after Kursk, at all the tank-repair enterprises of Kharkov and Belgorod, hundreds of destroyed German tanks requiring repair were captured at railway stations. It is worth considering Guderian's opinion after Kursk, which correlates with his "gastrointestinal" illness, that Kursk is the death of German tank forces. It is also important to note that if the losses of the Germans are very painful precisely in terms of the death of the latest and modernized equipment, then for the Red Army this is a mass of light tanks, primarily T-70, "heavy" Churchells, aging KV and T-34. But even this technique was restored in large quantities. I had to read books published in the United States in English on WWII issues, including the combat operations of SS tank units. The participants in those events clearly and unequivocally scream about critical losses, about the horrific losses of new technology. It is unlikely that they would lie.
  36. +2
    11 June 2019 17: 03
    The Germans in December 1941 realized that the war of attrition would lead to defeat, in the USSR they also understood this, so the Soviet industry, which could not keep up with quality, was tasked with counting on quantity! The main thing is to prevent wedges from striking, and here the T-34 turned out to be the best opposition, ready to advance in the barrage zone, while easily flanking itself! He lost to German tanks in open battle, but that was no longer important!
  37. +2
    11 June 2019 18: 24
    Quote: knn54
    Haste (without preliminary reconnaissance) led to the tragedy of the 29th tank corps of the Red Army near Prokhorovka, when German tanks shot from Soviet shelters.

    There was no intelligence. The advancing tanks of Rotmistrov had to attack on a not very wide front to overcome their own anti-tank ditch while the enemy did not attack against expectations, but secured themselves on already captured positions and, apart from tanks, our tanks were met by deployed anti-tank artillery. The shooting was like a dash. As a result, the irretrievable losses of the 5th tank army of Rotmistrov in this attack, according to various sources, amounted to 350-450 tanks, which caused a sharp reaction of Stalin. A commission led by Malenkov was sent to the front to investigate such losses. Rotmistrova was saved by Vasilevsky, who reported that the Germans also suffered heavy losses in technology, obviously overstating this data. For a long time, our operation near Prokhorovka was considered an example of an unsuccessful operation.
  38. -2
    11 June 2019 20: 11
    The opinion of a simple ordinary resident of the territory with the name of Russian Federation I.V. Stalin is right, the main thing is how and who is wandering, plus why he personally considers it necessary. Total-And not to calculate our losses for us and the Germans like this-Battles where the famous tanks were used (also the approximate number of sides also), as a result of the battle there is a winner and the number of enemy tanks and ours wrecked on the battlefield directly (plus we do the percentage of those evacuated to the rear directly in battle) and we get in my opinion a very close to the real percentage of combat losses. What we lost, threw in the beginning, then xs and we’ve definitely found out without a time machine. But in general, since we defeated both tanks and people, the NSS were (sometime) better than theirs
  39. +3
    11 June 2019 23: 42
    It makes no sense to count the numbers of losses, relying on the data of the German side, which are still presented in a castrated form. There and before no one tried to figure out what's what, but rather amused themselves with supposedly "minimal" losses, trying to justify large and fatal defeats from Soviet troops. And now even more so. Anglo-Saxon men were also added to the choir of the Wehrmacht lawyers. Today they are trying to take an absentee revenge for the victory of our grandfathers and great-grandfathers, "dripping" on the minds and hearts of history lovers with such "scientific" figures. Goebbels (and not only him) rejoices in the coffin: "We lost with the sword, at least we beat with a word. Hurray!" Do you believe such experts? Don't be naive. The numbers of losses of Western and some "our" historians grossly do not correspond to the logic of the war. The trouble for the Red Army is not that it fought "badly" or "ineptly", but that its descendants are unable today to defend their historical heritage the way their grandfathers defended the country. Friends, we must fight for the truth and for the right to be proud of our history. At least the fact that not to hang your ears. And thanks for the article.
    1. 0
      13 June 2019 12: 45
      Quote: Anton Dahl
      It makes no sense to count the loss figures, based on data from the German side, which are still presented in a neutered form.

      More precisely, in Germany there are NO official losses on the results of WWII and WWII. Neither in people nor in technology. There are only studies of individual authors.
      Quote: Anton Dahl
      There and before no one tried to figure out what's what, but rather amused themselves with supposedly "minimal" losses, trying to justify large and fatal defeats from Soviet troops.

      Absolutely agree :) hi
  40. 0
    12 June 2019 01: 04
    Thanks for the series of articles, I've been reading it from the very first one. The analysis, in my opinion, is correct. The T-34, as well as the general tank troops of the Red Army in 41, were not very good. By the 43rd, the personnel had learned how to fight, the T-34s had been brought to their senses, but the Germans did not waste time either - they modernized their equipment and began to produce a new one, "Tiger" is so simply a masterpiece. The ideas embodied in the "Panther" formed the basis of our post-war technology (I heard this from the tankers who fought against the Wehrmacht). But I do not understand the comments of a number of people ... Guys, who of you communicated with the front-line soldiers, those who were at the Kursk Bulge, or crossed the Dnieper? I talked with the front-line soldiers. I asked them a bunch of questions about the "Tigers" and about the Pe-2, I heard a lot of interesting things from the gunner with the IL 2. They also recalled the American (second front) stew, although mostly pilots, but tankmen and infantry ..., some of it have not seen. Carrot extract, egg powder, even in the rear were. Lend-Lease was not such a supermarket, although it helped a lot, but everyone, I repeat everything, as one had a strong opinion, they would have done without amers. The second front was expected at 41 or 42, after 43 everyone had confidence - they learned to beat the Germans and finish them off by ourselves. Rest assured. And our technique was on a level, although it was inferior in something, but it also won in something the same. Not on today's topic. (The opinion of some comrades - Il 2 is so-so, it is not clear what). I had a military officer at school, during the Second World War I was a company commander. They took some Zh.D. bridge, and with varying success, then ours will take it, then the Germans will beat it back. In general, attack aircraft were called (Il 2, of course). There was a delay with the aviation, they launched another attack without waiting for the latter. During the battle, attack aircraft flew in and began to iron as expected (PC, cannons, machine guns, bombs). They lay next to the Germans, hiding behind the farm of the bridge, some under the rails, miraculously survived, although the bridge was immediately taken, according to him, this raid was the worst thing that he experienced in his life (and he began to fight just on the Kursk Bulge , graduated in Prague).
  41. -1
    12 June 2019 09: 02
    The article is good, because the author moves from quantitative data to analysis, i.e. to the consideration of quality indicators. Which, in fact, is the essence of what is happening. By the way, I have never met the estimated indicator of the intensity of the use of tanks by the Germans and the USSR. You can have more tanks in the theater of war, but lose in each specific battle due to delays in entering the battle. For example, a German fighter pilot could fly up to 6 sorties per day, while a Soviet pilot could make 2-3. But not everyone understood the essence of your article. My personal opinion is that the article lacks one more "column" with losses - the losses of the tankers themselves killed and wounded. There are, of course, two errors: first, the survivability of the tank as a structure and its "tendency" to save the crew; secondly, the conversion factor into crews, because in German tanks, the crew was 25% larger in comparison with Soviet tanks.
  42. ABM
    0
    12 June 2019 12: 21
    I remember a year ago they tried to count it all here. Swearing was !!!
  43. -1
    12 June 2019 14: 58
    Dear author, the remnants of the personnel of the SS tank formations sent to Italy, where in your opinion the fate of the war and the Eastern Front in particular, was decided, left there without equipment, without any heavy weapons. Apparently, to share combat experience with their less fortunate colleagues who were not lucky enough to be on the Anglo-Saxon front. The losses of the Red Army in equipment have always been greater than the losses of the Wehrmacht because we had a different concept for its production and use. A different technological order, different ideas about operational art and priorities. The life of a single tank or aircraft produced in the USSR or Germany was as different as the life of a Mercedes and a Moskvich. In the Red Army, the equipment was used at the limit of its capabilities and, moreover, the limit, they did not spare it (a vivid example is Lendleut aviation). More than half of the losses were non-combat, due to the imperfection and primitiveness of the design, not least. We staked on quantity, the Germans staked on quality. We were right and won the war. We, in that period, even if we wanted to, could not do better equipment than the Germans. Today they cannot make better weapons than we do. Another round of technological confrontation. What difference does it make who lost the most tanks or aircraft? The result is known. Read the memoirs of the trench front-line soldiers: in 1943. the Germans and I changed places. There is no shortage of ammunition, weapons, equipment. In German companies of 20-30 people, the German went wrong (boys and old people, pronounced fear of the front). Through the looking glass. At Kursk, you correctly indicated our losses, these figures were announced by Malyshev immediately after the battle and he also indicated the reason: the "long arm" of German tanks, excellent optics, the presence in our tank corps of a large number of light tanks and medium tanks "emergency" times of the crisis of 1941- 42 years (in the book of Shmelev there is a photograph of a T-34 with a 20mm cannon), which were still pushed into the connections. They were burned by hundreds of Germans competently defended (about the asshole Rotmistrov is a separate story). And not only tanks are fighting. Until the end of the war, German tank divisions outnumbered our mechanized corps in the number of artillery barrels and "the weight of an artillery salvo." Regarding the total losses, I looked at Krivosheev's tanks and self-propelled guns: USSR - 96, Germany - 500. Only Germany lost ALL tanks and self-propelled guns (hereinafter for some reason 32), and in the Red Army on 000/42/700. - 09.05.1945 in stock. You will say that if the Germans had the same amount of equipment as the Russians, they would not have lost the war. I disagree (excuse me for managing the dialogues). I believe that the Germans are lying, as well as about bloody losses. Their total losses could not be less than ours because it "contradicts common sense and the historical experience of wars." This is the title of the article by V.V. Litvinenko, in my opinion, a very competent and objective researcher. If you wish, read his book "The Cost of War. Casualties on the Soviet-German Front".
    1. 0
      13 June 2019 12: 43
      Quote: jhltyjyjctw
      Dear author, the remnants of the personnel of SS tank armored formations sent to Italy, where in your opinion the fate of the war and of the Eastern Front in particular was decided

      Excuse me, did you even read the article? :))) Or did you notice a familiar word - and go into battle? :)))
      1. 0
        14 June 2019 11: 03
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Excuse me, did you even read the article? :))) Or did you notice a familiar word - and go into battle? :)))


        I outlined it. Write more articles. I will also outline them.
  44. -3
    12 June 2019 15: 52
    Quote: knn54
    Haste (without preliminary reconnaissance) led to the tragedy of the 29th tank corps of the Red Army near Prokhorovka, when German tanks shot Soviet tanks from cover. Total: Germans lost 10 vehicles, we have 253.



    This is fantastic .. The Germans didn’t lose tanks at all. I wonder why they stopped the offensive and began to retreat? laughing tongue wassat They lost 10 tanks. There were about 1000 cars on both sides and the losses were terrible for both sides ...
  45. -1
    12 June 2019 18: 00
    The author forgets a little that the Red Army had such wonderful things as ATARZ and ATRZ, i.e. mobile tank - modular repair plant and, accordingly, tank repair. On average, one ATRZ and two ATRZs to the front, although there were various options. These factories could carry out cap. repair of tanks, self-propelled guns and their units. Therefore, only what the PTRZ could not restore was recorded in irrecoverable losses. There is an interesting book - Lipatov or Lipsky "Factory at the Front".
    1. +1
      13 June 2019 10: 35
      Quote: TermNachTER
      The author forgets a little bit that in the Red Army there were such wonderful things as PTARZ and PTRZ, i.e. mobile tank - aggregate repair plant and, accordingly, tank repair.

      Just as the Germans had the opportunity to repair the tanks, not only in Germany but also in our own enterprises that fell into occupation. And so what, sorry?
      1. 0
        13 June 2019 18: 05
        The difference is that PTARZ and PTRZ were located 30 - 40 km. from the front line, and our enterprises have always been close by the German tank division? Were there at those enterprises the corresponding machine park, equipment and workers of the necessary specialties and sufficient qualifications? Welding armor with a thickness of 50 - 100 mm. not every welder can do it.
        1. 0
          13 June 2019 19: 18
          Quote: TermNachTER
          The difference is that the PTARZ and PTRZ were located in 30 - 40 km. from the front line, and our enterprises have always been by the side of the German tank division?

          The Germans had with them very serious production facilities. And for the 40 mechanized corps that went into a breakthrough, the km behind the front line is not much different from Chelyabinsk
          1. 0
            13 June 2019 21: 55
            That even the railway is not needed to transfer the broken equipment to 3 km.?
  46. The comment was deleted.
  47. 0
    12 June 2019 18: 31
    Why are only tanks considered? After all, there were combined-arms battles. Count the losses from artillery on mines from anti-tank artillery from grenades and then count. Now no one can count, but you can write anything.
  48. BAI
    0
    12 June 2019 18: 41
    The most accurate loss of the Red Army tanks in the Battle of Kursk was with Zamulin, about whom the author did not consider it necessary to mention. Or didn’t know about him? Then this is not the best way to characterize as a connoisseur of tanks.
  49. +1
    12 June 2019 18: 43
    Details on the status, losses and trophies of parts of the 5 connection of gv. TA from 12 to 16.07.43.









  50. +1
    12 June 2019 18: 46
    An interesting article that forces you to look for additional information, to develop, that’s what was found quickly: https://reich-erwacht.livejournal.com/212054.html

    1943 loss of T-34 14700, production of 15812.
    The limited space not only affects the work of the crew, but also turns the T-34 literally into a steel coffin. An American study of the Korean War (analyzing the T-34/85, which was more spacious than the T-34/76) concluded that, due to the limited internal space, penetration of the tank's armor, as a rule, led to the destruction of the tank and the loss of the crew with 75% chance. For Sherman, this figure was only 18% [1].

    German tanks Pz.III and Pz.IV as a whole had the usual hull design, only partially using the slope in the middle part of the frontal armor. The new Panther tank was the first German tank with fully sloped armor at the front and sides, but interior space was not as limited as in the T-34.

    The T-34 tower also suffered from a lack of space. American experts who investigated the T-34 at the Aberdeen training ground in 1942 noted:

    "Its main weakness is that it is very cramped. The Americans could not understand how our tankers could fit inside in winter, wearing sheepskin coats."
  51. 0
    13 June 2019 10: 05
    Quote: LeonidL
    on combat operations of SS tank units

    SS tank units are a separate issue, and they were very different
    tank unit of the Hitler Youth in France, which counterattacked the Americans in France
    and 1-2 SS tank divisions (for example, near Kursk) are units that are completely different in strength, differing simply significantly in their striking potential.
  52. 0
    13 June 2019 10: 10
    Quote: fighter angel
    Everything you said clearly indicates that you haven’t even seen Rastrenin’s work.

    I read it 2 months ago and the analysis of hs-129 execution concerned exactly 42 years.
  53. +1
    13 June 2019 10: 26
    Quote: Beringovsky
    There is simply no need for these curtsies to the former "allies".

    don't make up hysterical nonsense
    no one curtsies to the allies, it’s just that the jingoistic patriots with slogans are fed up with the super soldiers.
    I will give a simple example from a book by a communications veteran (close to the text), 1941.
    "we were sitting in a fortified bunker, 22 people, we were attacked by 3 Germans and they did it deftly,
    that we could not hold the line."
    The Germans knew how to fight and their soldiers very often turned out to be no worse than ours, and therefore we achieved victory not through stupid “tension of the veins,” but through wise, enormous work, and we should not underestimate supplies.
    It doesn’t matter where from - I said that it was not only the allies who supplied.
    But without aluminum we would not have had the Yak-9, La-7, and the large production of T34 (aluminum was used in the engine), without stew there would have been no counter-offensive near Moscow in 1942 and successful battles in the 43rd winter near Stalingrad, without a huge assistance in the supply of trucks and other supplies, the Red Army would have gone to Berlin after Kursk not for a year and a half, but for 3 years and would have lost another couple of million soldiers on the strategic lines of defense and 5 million children unborn due to the war. Yes, the soldiers would have been “taken out”, but the price would have been much higher.
    My father was born after the war, in 1948. I tried sugar for the first time in my life only in 51.
    It was so difficult in the USSR that won 6 years ago. That's what you can't understand. And despite all the corruption of the allies, the rapid successes of the Red Army in 43-45 were largely thanks to Lend Lease.
  54. 0
    13 June 2019 11: 05
    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    or I’m stupid, but the Americans did all the meat supply for our army

    add to this the difference in nutrition in the rear of the army and on the front line, what is the role of stew, and not “meat”.
  55. 0
    13 June 2019 11: 33
    In many articles about the Kursk Bulge, only tank losses are often considered. Friends, excuse me, but weren’t there any other branches of the military there? Didn't they knock out the infantry and aviation? Maybe this should be considered as a whole?
    Even if the Wehrmacht retained most of the tanks, but without the infantry, how long would they have fought there? 700 thousand German soldiers were knocked out (wounded and killed) during defensive battles. What could Manstein do when there was almost no one to attack behind the tanks? That’s why he began to withdraw troops to their starting lines; his comrade understood that it would not be possible to quickly make up for the losses.
    It is bold to say that in the Battle of Kursk neither side achieved its goal. The Red Army had reserves to launch a counteroffensive, and quite a large one at that. This means that it fulfilled its strategic goal - the Wehrmacht was exhausted and weakened.
    1. 0
      13 June 2019 12: 42
      Quote: Prometey
      Didn't they knock out the infantry and aviation? Maybe this should be considered as a whole?

      Of course, it is necessary, but here the situation is such that I am not considering the losses on the Kursk Bulge, but the losses of armored vehicles in 1943 using the example of those on the Kursk Bulge. And so - you are right, of course.
      Quote: Prometey
      It is bold to say that in the Battle of Kursk neither side achieved its goal.

      And who says this, may I ask?
      1. 0
        14 June 2019 09: 41
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And who says this, may I ask?

        This is not for you, of course.
  56. -2
    14 June 2019 00: 20
    In the early 80s I came across an interesting chipboard book. About camouflage with examples from the time of the Second World War. According to the battle of Kursk, the mass use of mobile tank models based on either trucks or tractors was outlined. I remember the phrase about covering them with thin sheets of boiler steel. Which, during a massive attack on German positions, made it possible to reduce tank losses. Isn’t this where the legs of the inflated figures from Nemchur’s memoirs grow? I have never seen such information anywhere else.
  57. 0
    17 July 2019 01: 10
    In the battles near Lake Balaton, the Germans lost 450 tanks. In the Korsun-Shevchenskovsk operation 300. On the Kursk Bulge 1500, because almost no one remembers the losses of tanks at Balaton and Korsun, and the scale of the first two operations is not even close to comparable.