Why T-34 lost to PzKpfw III, but won against Tigers and Panthers. Part of 3

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Unfortunately, the previous article did not “fit in” on the means of monitoring the situation with which the T-34 was provided, so let's start with it.

I must say that the T-34 pre-war production and production of the first war years is often (and absolutely deservedly) reproached for the lack of a commander’s turret providing the commander tank relatively good view of the battlefield. One may ask, why were our tanks not equipped with such turrets?



The fact is that, in the opinion of domestic tank builders, the functions of the commander's pinnacle will be performed by a means of viewing, which, in principle, resembles a submarine periscope. Accordingly, if at the disposal of the German T-3 commander there were five sighting slots in the aforementioned turret, which were usual slots in armor taken in triplexes, then the T-34 commander had a PT-K panoramic instrument, which in some cases was replaced with a PT panoramic sight 4-7) and two periscopic sights, located on the sides of the tower.

Why T-34 lost to PzKpfw III, but won against Tigers and Panthers. Part of 3

This scheme is taken from the article by Grigory Malyshev. "The fire control devices of the Soviet and German tanks of the Second World War. Myths and reality" previously published on "VO".


Thus, theoretically, the commander of the T-34 should have had an advantage over his German “colleague”, but in practice it was the Russian tank that turned out to be “blind”, while the German had quite acceptable visibility. Why is that?

Firstly, it is an uncomfortable position and a small sector of the review at the panoramic sight. It was trite, it was difficult to look at it from the commander’s place - it was necessary to turn the head from an unnatural angle, and this deficiency was especially apparent when the tank was moving. Theoretically, PT-K could provide an overview of 360 degrees, but actually did only 120 degrees to the right of the direction of the T-34, while remaining very significant, not viewed, “dead” zone of the tank.

It should also be noted that some disadvantages of the PT-K panoramic device resulted from its merits. So, he had a multiple increase in 2,5, which was very useful in order to identify disguised targets - by the way, the T-3 commander was deprived of this opportunity, which was considered a noticeable disadvantage of the German tank. But on the other hand, a similar increase with a limited angle of visibility required the commander of the T-34 to slowly rotate the handwheel of the drive of the circular observation mechanism, otherwise the image was blurred. And so, as a result of the foregoing, the German tank commander had a good opportunity at any moment, with a twist of his head, to inspect the battlefield and identify threats to his tank, while the T-34 commander had to slowly inspect the limited sector of the space ahead-to his right " iron horse "...

As for the side viewing devices of the towers, which the commander of the T-34 had, he had to bend heavily in order to look at the one that was located on his side. The author of this article could not figure out whether the commander had the opportunity to look into the left viewing device, which was on the side of the loader, but according to the test results for both devices indicated the inconvenience of use, and the small sector of the review, and the inability to clean the windows of the devices while remaining inside tank, and significant dead space ... In general, despite the simplicity of the survey "instruments" of the German T-3 tank, its commander could control the battlefield much better.

The gunner of the German tank besides, actually, a sight, also had 4 reticle, so he could inspect the space next to the tank along with the commander. On the T-34, the commander himself was the gunner, and as such, he had, in addition to the survey tools described above, also the TOD-6 tank telescopic sight.

It must be said that our sights were very sophisticated in design, moreover: the Americans who had studied the T-34 at the Aberdeen Proving Ground even concluded that its scope was “the best in design in the world”, but noted mediocre optics. Strictly speaking, this was the first significant drawback of our sight in comparison with the German one: in principle, they provided the gunner with comparable capabilities, but the manufacturing of the lenses of the German instrument was traditionally characterized by high quality German optics, while we had it somewhat worse before the war, and in its initial period it became at some point completely bad, during the evacuation of the plant that produces it. However, even in the worst of times, it was impossible to talk about the inoperative aim of Soviet tanks.

The second drawback was that the German tank sights were, if I may say so, "crucial." That is, the position of that part of the sight, which the gunner looked at, remained unchanged from the angle of elevation of the gun, but the gunner-commander of the T-34 had to bend down, or vice versa, to rise after the TOD-6 sight.

The driver on the T-34 had as many as three periscopic devices and, in fact, the driver's hatch, which could be opened slightly. The T-3 Makhvod had one periscope and one reticle. But the German instruments provided a very good “front-left” view, while the radio-gunner located next to it, having two reticle at its disposal, had a good front-to-right view, which could tell the driver something. At the same time, our T-34 three “periscopes” were located at different levels (the front, the forward-looking periscope — 69 cm from the seat, the left and the right — 71 cm). Taking into account the fact that the difference in 2 cm in the sitting position required different growths, since the front periscope was at eye level of the mechanical drive, if the latter was short, and the side ones were “below average”, there was no need to talk about any convenience of observation. In addition, there were no armrests on the side devices, they were very quickly contaminated when driving on virgin soil to a state of complete loss of visibility, and regular "wipers" could not cope with their cleaning at all.


The photo clearly shows all three periscopes of the driver


The not-too-good visibility of the driver in the T-34 (with the hatch closed) was complemented by the blindness of the gunner-radio operator, who only had an optical sight for the machine gun. In fact, he gave such a meager viewing angle and was so uncomfortable that he practically did not allow to conduct aimed fire from a machine gun in battle. From the memoirs of tank crews it follows that in the overwhelming majority of cases the machine gun served either as “psychological” (shooting in that direction!) Or removable weapons.

Despite all the above, I would like to note the following. Of course, the T-3 and T-4 viewing instruments provided a better overview than the T-34 of the 1940-1942 release, but this does not mean that the German tankers saw everything, and ours saw nothing. Still, you need to understand that the review of the tanks of those years, that the British, that German, that domestic or American was very bad. But the T-34 was worse than the German tanks.

weaponry

Artillery. Here, no doubt, the T-34 leads by a huge margin from both German and any modern medium tanks of other powers. Equipping the latest Soviet medium tank 76,2 mm with L-11 and F-34 systems with an initial projectile velocity for 1940 and 612-655 m / s, which was high enough for 662, respectively, was a huge step forward for global tank building. In essence, it was about the fact that T-34 received a universal artillery system, suitable for fighting almost all possible targets of the tank: enemy armored vehicles, field artillery, anti-tank guns, infantry, as well as a number of field fortifications. At the same time, even in the beginning of the Great Patriotic War, the specialization remained in the artillery defense of German tanks. Thus, the 37-mm and 50-mm guns mounted on the T-3 due to the low weight of the projectile, and, accordingly, the small amount of explosives in it, were not very well suited to destroy enemy infantry and artillery and were mostly anti-tank weapons. Nevertheless, in the fight against tanks with the domestic F-34 could argue except that the best of them, long-barreled 50-mm gun KwK 39 L / 60, armor penetration of which was quite comparable with the Soviet gun. But, having no advantage over F-34 in terms of combat with armored vehicles, KwK 39 L / 60 was inferior to it in terms of impact on other types of targets, and besides, at the time of the invasion of the USSR, exactly 44 German tanks had such a weapon.

On the contrary, the KwK 37 L / 24 artillery system, installed on the T-4, could work well for field reinforcement, infantry and other unarmored targets, but due to the small initial velocity of the projectile, which was only 385 m / sec, it was much inferior and L-11 , and F-34 in the capabilities of defeating enemy armored vehicles. Perhaps the only indisputable advantage of the German tank artillery systems over the domestic L-11 and F-34 was their relatively small size, leaving more room in the tower for other units and crew.



There is nothing to say about other countries - the French 47-mm and the British 40-mm guns F-34 are categorically inferior in all respects. Another thing is the American 3 "Lee", which received the 75-mm artillery system with more or less comparable qualities to domestic 76,2 mm guns, but the Americans managed to shove it into a sponson with a very small angle of horizontal guidance. As for the domestic F-34, the verdict of the Americans who were testing it at the Aberdeen Proving Ground was the following: “... very good. Simple, smooth running and easy to maintain. ” Only a relatively low velocity of the projectile was placed in the minus of our cannon, which for 1942 g was quite explicable.

However, very high for 1940-1941's. The performance characteristics of our 76,2-mm guns were leveled to a certain extent by the meager amount of armor-piercing shells our industry was able to make. Apparently, an important role was played by the fact that for such shells there was no goal for a long time - lightly armored tanks of the middle 30-s could be completely destroyed even by high-explosive 76,2-mm projectile, or shrapnel, exposed to contact action.

Before 1937, we produced an 76,2-mm armor-piercing projectile arr. 1933, and the rate of release was not at all startling: in 1936-37. with the release plan for 80 000 shells, it was possible to produce 29 600 units. Taking into account the fact that not only tank, but also field guns needed armor-piercing shells, even the planned figures look completely insignificant, and the actual output is a completely vanishingly small quantity. Then, with the advent of more durable armor and the development of tanks with anti-missile booking, it turned out that the projectile arr. 1933 was ineffective against the armor sheet 60 mm thick, so I had to urgently develop a new one.

However, the production of armor-piercing shells was completely disrupted. With plans for release in 1938-1940. 450 000 shells, managed to produce 45 100 shells. And only in 1941, a breakthrough was finally outlined - with the plan for 400 000 shells, at the beginning of June, it was possible to make 118 000 shells.

However, in scale battles 1941-1942. and such issues were a drop in the ocean. As a result, even in July 1942 of the Scientific Research Institute-48, studying the impact of domestic shells on German armored vehicles, in the report “Defeat the armor of German tanks” noted:

“Due to the lack of the required number of Camor armor-piercing shells in artillery units, shooting at German tanks from 76,2-mm divisional guns with other types of shells is common ...”


Not that in the USSR they could not design a normal armor-piercing projectile, the problem was that its mass production required workers of very high qualification, and such were in great deficit. As a result, even those shells that were still manufactured by our industry were far from as good as they could be, but even there were few of them. To some extent, the situation was saved by the decision to produce armor-piercing projectiles that do not contain a fuse and explosives in general. Of course, the armor ’action of such projectiles was insufficient, the enemy tank could be completely disabled only in the event of contact with the engine, fuel tanks or ammunition.

But, on the other hand, it is not necessary to downplay the possibilities of projectiles-pigs. In the last article, we described that T-34 could receive quite serious damage even in cases where the projectile did not pass completely inside the body: damage was caused by fragments of tank armor, knocked out by an armor piercing projectile and the projectile warhead fell into the armored space. In this case, it was about shells caliber 37-45-mm. At the same time, 76,2-mm steel blanks, according to the report of the Scientific Research Institute-48, were punched by German tanks “from any direction” and, obviously, their armor-level action was significantly higher.

Let us also recall that, with the growth of protection of tanks, practically the whole world began to use sub-caliber shells, whose striking element, in essence, was a small-caliber steel bar. Well, our T-34 shot blanks caliber 76,2-mm and, of course, zabronevoy effect "caliber" ammunition was much higher than the sabot 50 and 75-mm German guns.

Another question - when did we have such projectiles? The author of this article, unfortunately, did not find the exact date of entry into service of the “blanks” BR-350BSP, but A. Ulanov and D. Shein in the book “Order in tank forces?” Mention the 1942 year.

As for the machine-gun armament, it was, in general, quite similar in our and German tanks, including the 2 machine gun of a “rifle” caliber 7,62 mm. A detailed comparison of the DT and MG-34 machine guns used in the Soviet T-34 and the German T-3 and T-4, perhaps, is still beyond the scope of this series of articles.

Conclusions on the technical part

So, now let's try to summarize everything told about technical data of T-34. His body armor was definitely superior to any medium tank of the world, but it was not at all "unkillable" - with great success, the T-34 could even be disabled by an 37-mm gun, though for this success his calculation really should have been very, very much . At the time of its appearance and in the initial period of the Great Patriotic War, the T-34 should rightfully be called a tank with anti-missile booking, since it provided quite acceptable security indicators against the main tank and anti-tank guns of the German VET. German tanks in 1941-42's. could "boast" of this level of booking only in the frontal projection. The T-34 protection lost its “counter-missile” status only to the field of adopting 75-mm Kw.k guns. 40, and it appeared on German tanks only in April 1942, and again, it should be understood that it played some serious role even later, as it appeared in the troops in noticeable quantities.

The armament of the T-34 was also superior to its German "competitors", but the position of the Soviet tank crews was complicated by the almost complete absence of full-fledged armor-piercing projectiles. This forced our tanks to converge with the enemy in order to reliably defeat him at a distance where the artillery systems of the German tanks already had chances to inflict significant damage on T-34. In general, if the T-34 were armed with full-fledged armor-piercing shells, we, apparently, would have had "Russian" Tigers "at the beginning of the war, to which German tanks would have at least some effective shooting of their own guns would be deadly. Unfortunately, this did not happen, but for a reason not related to the T-34 design.



Of course, the large crew size, thanks to which the commander did not need to combine the functions of the gunner, better working conditions and visibility gave tankers certain advantages, but how great were they? Perhaps, only tankers who had the opportunity to make war on both Soviet and captured German vehicles could truthfully answer this question. Today, these shortcomings are often exaggerated, and you can find allegations that together they made the T-34 a worthless tank, but there are other points of view. For example, D. Orgill, an English journalist and writer, author of several books on military stories and development of armored vehicles, wrote:

“All these shortcomings, however, were mostly minor. They could play a significant role only if the tanks with which the T-34 met on the battlefield were equivalent to him in more substantial terms. ”


It is difficult to say how right D. Orgill was right, but it should be noted that he wrote during the Cold War, having no reason to flatter the combat equipment of the USSR. The author of this article certainly understands the importance of ergonomics and good visibility in battle, but nevertheless assumes that the Englishman is right in many respects and that these shortcomings of T-34 in terms of review and ergonomics still did not have a decisive influence on the loss of T-X in 1941-1942

Most likely, the key technical flaws were the complexity of the management of T-34 pre-war and early military production and their relatively low technical reliability. This was superimposed by such factors as poor crew training and the not too successful disposition of our mechanized corps (MK), and all this together had a cumulative effect. After all, what actually happened?

The location of the MK in the second and third echelons was theoretically the right decision, since it was from there, after the directions of the German strikes were revealed, that it would be more correct for them to put forward for counterattacks. Placing the MK in the first echelon would allow the Germans to surround them and thereby deprive them of combat mobility and power.

But in practice, this theory led to the fact that our MK had to move forward and travel long distances in order to get in touch with the enemy. The crews of the T-34 for the most part did not have sufficient experience in driving these tanks, they saved on training due to the relatively low lifespan of the tanks. It got to the point that the mechanics of the T-34 were trained in driving on other cars! Of course, this is better than nothing, but with such a “preparation” it was absolutely impossible to master the early T-34 with their weight of nuances in management.

The technical shortcomings of the gearbox and friction clutches required the increased professionalism of the driver, and he, in fact, was downgraded. In addition, not everyone knew and knew how to timely carry out the necessary prevention of components and assemblies, did not know the features of their equipment. All this, obviously, could not but lead to a massive exit of the T-34 from the system for technical reasons even before contact with the enemy. For example, during the famous march of the KNOVO 8, the 40 tanks from the existing 100s were lost, while the 5 tanks were not operational at the time of the war and had to be left at the permanent location.

Of course, the same fact can be seen from the other side - yes, the 8 th MK lost 45% of the existing T-34 fleet, including 40% - on the march, but ... during the transfer of its own power almost 500 km! Reading today's work, it seems that the T-34 in the T-200 mechanized corps simply had to collapse into spare parts after the first 250-8 kilometers of the march, but this did not happen. Maybe it was not so bad for our machines with a resource, as it may seem at first glance ... Or was the commander of the XNUMX-s MK, Lieutenant-General Dmitry Ivanovich Ryabyshev still able to properly prepare the crews of his unit?

But, in any case, in conditions when it was necessary to get to the enemy (and, often, “winding” not one hundred kilometers), and even on equipment that requires well-trained crews, but they are not, then large non-combat losses inevitable by definition. Due to the strategic reasons described by us in the first article of the cycle, the USSR was doomed to lose the Border Battle, and it swallowed up the most efficient troops of the border districts. Accordingly, the strategic initiative remained with the Germans, and they continued quite successfully launched offensive. And this, in turn, means that the decommissioned T-34 remained in the territory captured by the enemy, even in cases where they could well be put into operation. There are cases when it was necessary to destroy even fully combat-ready tanks, which, as a result of marches and battles, did not have any fuel and / or ammunition left.



It is well known that, ceteris paribus, in an armed conflict a party will suffer heavy losses of tanks, forced to retreat and lose its territory. This is also true for the Red Army: for example, in the Moscow defensive operation that lasted for a little over two months, from 30 September to 5 December 1941, we lost a total of 2 785 tanks of all types, or almost 1 400 tanks per month, but for one month of the offensive Moscow operation (5 December 1941 g - 7 January 1942 g) losses amounted to all 429 machines, that is, the average monthly more than three times less than in the defensive (data I. Shmelev). This is due to the fact that tanks lined up on the battlefields, as well as those that failed for technical reasons, remain for those who advance, capturing (winning) the territory. Accordingly, the attacking side has the opportunity to put such tanks into operation, while the retreating party does not. The retreating party can to a certain extent compensate for the forced abandonment of damaged and broken armored vehicles, but for this, its armored units must be superbly trained, and provided with the necessary number of tractors, vehicles, etc. Alas, the tanks of the mechanized corps of the Red Army, in contrast to the above, were very often forced to engage in battle on their own, in isolation, not that from the rear services of the mechanized corps, but even in isolation from their own infantry and artillery.

Thus, we conclude that the technical reasons that markedly affected the loss of T-34 in the initial period of the war were relatively low reliability and exactingness to the qualifications of the driver. And you can even say that due to the above reasons, T-34 pre-war issue and the first military years did not meet the very concept for which they were created. While the main task for these tanks during their design was to see active operations in the operational front-line zone of the enemy, that is, to a depth of 300 km., Technically they were not ready for such operations in 1940-1941 g. Accordingly, they were not ready for the agile tank war that the Wehrmacht imposed on us.

Nevertheless, we have said before, and we will repeat once again - the actual technical problems of the T-34 were neither major nor significant among the reasons for the defeat of the Red Army auto armored troops at the initial stage of the war. Although, of course, they existed and, of course, prevented the war, so in the next article we will look at the history of improving the design of the T-34 - and, at the same time, changing the structure of tank forces and the role of T-34 in battle.

To be continued ...
78 comments
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  1. +7
    11 February 2019 05: 52
    objectively in my opinion and without a strain, everything is on the case.
    1. +11
      11 February 2019 07: 59
      Everything mixed up in the Oblonsky house.

      In the first diagram, it’s by no means a PTK, but a PT-4-7 sight.

      But on the second picture there is a PTK (on the other side of the tower), but it is not the commander who is looking at it, but the loader.

      PTK, unlike the opinion of the TS, has never been a target.

      And there was no such thing, as the TS writes: "but actually did it only 120 degrees to the right of the direction of movement of the T-34." The PTK had all-round visibility (like the PT-4-7), if the commander "turned his head at an unnatural angle" (which in fact was not).


      "Did the commander have the opportunity to look into the left observation device, which was on the side of the loader," - so where is the commander and where is the loader, and Andryusha? Provided that right-left is determined by the direction of the car. And of course, neither the commander nor the gunner could look through the observation device on the opposite side of the tower, he was separated from them by the gun.

      With lengthy discussions about the advantages / disadvantages of the PTK against the triplexes in the "German" combat unit, the main reason for the "blindness" of the T-34-76 was not noted - this is the absence of a released commander, even if there is no combat tower, but if there is a released commander, with a PTK, then The T-34 becomes a tank, but without the aforementioned, the T-34 is not a tank at all, in the understanding of the summer of 41 (taking into account its weight category). Tanks are KV, Pz III, Pz. IV, T-50, etc. But the T-34-76 is a turret self-propelled gun in fact, and if it is used as a tank, we get one of the reasons for the disaster in 1941 (another, more important reason is the almost total incompetence of the command staff of all levels).
      "The KwK 39 L / 60 was inferior to it in terms of impact on other types of targets, and in addition, at the time of the invasion of the USSR, exactly 44 German tanks had such a weapon." What is this news of the history of German tank building! It’s interesting to hear the source of this revelation.

      Before the war there were about 3 thousand 180 armor-piercing units (I don't remember exactly). That is, approximately 90 units for each German tank with anti-cannon armor. That is, it was a matter of logistics and competence, and not in the lack of armor-piercing shells.
      1. +4
        11 February 2019 21: 36
        But the T-34-76, - this is a self-propelled gun turret

        It is strange that you attributed KV-1 to tanks, and not to self-propelled pillboxes!
        1. +1
          12 February 2019 10: 08
          Self-propelled pillbox - this is a criterion of reliability wink , and tank / self-propelled guns, according to the criterion of destination.
          1. +3
            12 February 2019 10: 12
            The farther into the forest ...
            Are you ready to substantiate your "conclusions" on the purpose of the T-34?
            And another question - if the READY FIELD gun or howitzer (naturally without a wheeled or tracked carriage) is used in a self-propelled gun - is this a self-propelled gun?
            And if for the armament of such a machine they create a SPECIALLY designed gun or howitzer - is this a TANK?
            1. 0
              12 February 2019 17: 00
              Quote: hohol95
              The farther into the forest ...
              Are you ready to substantiate your "conclusions" on the purpose of the T-34?
              And another question - if the READY FIELD gun or howitzer (naturally without a wheeled or tracked carriage) is used in a self-propelled gun - is this a self-propelled gun?
              And if for the armament of such a machine they create a SPECIALLY designed gun or howitzer - is this a TANK?

              It's not about where the gun came from - from an armored train or a spaceship. The fact is that in the absence of a freed commander (albeit with a PTK), the tank cannot effectively perform its functions: detect and destroy targets on the battlefield (i.e., in fact it turns into self-propelled guns).
              You can call the turret self-propelled guns named T-34-76 a tank and use it as a tank, only this will result in huge losses with minimal enemy losses.
              And you can use the turret self-propelled guns T-34-76 for the purpose of supporting attacks and for ambushes. Then the alignment of their own / others' losses will be completely different.
              Again, the question is in the competence of the command staff: it is not there and 83,5 thousand tanks were lost during the Second World War (and also 33,4 thousand self-propelled guns and 37,6 thousand other armored vehicles).
              1. 0
                12 February 2019 17: 15
                For your self-propelled guns, a COMMANDER is not required?
                Guard Lt. Alexander Maleshkin, who was he?
                Then, ALL pre-war tanks from T-37A to T-34 fall into the SU category, except for the T-28 and T-35!
                And naturally BA starting with the FAI (there the car commander was sitting next to the driver)!
                And then French cars considered the whole world by TANKS are self-propelled guns ...
                1. +1
                  14 February 2019 05: 41
                  Quote: hohol95
                  but without the aforementioned, the T-34, is not a tank at all, in the understanding of the summer of 41 years (taking into account its weight category).

                  Of course you need it, but its absence is not so critical if the self-propelled guns are correctly used, but the absence of a freed commander in the tank immediately sharply increases losses.
                  As for the "French" and others, I will quote myself again: "But without the above, the T-34 is not a tank at all, in the understanding of the summer of 41 (taking into account its weight category)." Try to understand what is written here and don't ask unnecessary questions.
                  And by the way, how did the French nedotanki (they were not self-propelled guns) conquered in the summer of 1940?

                  There were still ersatz tanks, for example. Pz 38 (t), who did not have a freed commander, but fought quite decently (given his low weight) due to the presence of a combine with good observation devices.
      2. 0
        12 February 2019 12: 02
        Are you talking about armor-piercing 3 "to what weapons are you talking about? And where does the info come from?"
      3. +2
        12 February 2019 15: 11
        Quote: Jura 27
        There were about 3 thousand 180 "armor-piercing units before the war (I don't remember exactly).

        From 1936 to 02.06.1941/192/700, 76 armor-piercing shells of XNUMX mm caliber were fired.
        Wherein:
        The sheet on military unit 9090 for April 30, 1941, in the column "76 mm armor-piercing tracer" - 33084 is assigned, 33084 is lacking, security percentage is 0. Once again - 0, zero, zero, dummy. But under the abbreviation “ve che 9090” hides the 6th mechanized corps of Major General Mikhail Georgievich Khatskilevich.

        ... as of April 25, 1941, the 3rd mechanized corps of the Baltic Special Military District: KV 79 tanks, T-34 tanks - 50, 17948 armor-piercing 76-mm shells were laid out according to the table, there is zero.

        He reports on the provision of weapons and ammunition as of May 1, 1941. The 4th mechanized corps of Major General Andrei Andreyevich Vlasov (the very future commander of the 37th, 20th, 2nd shock and Russian liberation armies): The KV corps has 72 tanks, the T-34 tanks have 242 tanks, it is supposed to have 76 artillery shots for 66964-mm tank guns, of which zero is available. All types - at least armor-piercing, at least high-explosive fragmentation - are still zero. But in the 8th mechanized corps of Lieutenant General Dmitry Ivanovich Ryabyshev, there are some armor-piercing shells for tank guns of the latest types: as of June 10, the corps has 71 KV tanks, 100 T-34s, it is supposed to have 8163 armor-piercing 76 mm shell, there is 2350.
        © Ulanov / Shein
        1. 0
          12 February 2019 17: 03
          Those. sheer logistic incompetence, under two hundred thousand armor-piercing units fired, and in future combat units FIGs, yes, a little.
          1. +1
            12 February 2019 17: 24
            Excuse me, Yuri, for being rude - did you have to bring the camels?
            Explain to me, please, why the equipment and materials purchased from the "allies" from Murmansk and Arkhangelsk remained in the ports of arrival at WWI? The railway camels probably did not go?
            You are right that there were big problems with logistics! But you should not blame everything on the heads of command personnel of tank units! They did not know the railways and depots in the Military Districts!
            And the Camels are an honor to them and PRAISED ... Like the NORTH REINDS ... And to the horses ...
            1. 0
              14 February 2019 05: 43
              And where are the camels, commanders of tank units and PMV?
              We are talking about incompetent logisticians of all levels.
          2. +2
            12 February 2019 17: 39
            Quote: Jura 27
            Those. sheer logistic incompetence, under two hundred thousand armor-piercing units fired, and in future combat units FIGs, yes, a little.

            Just from 192700 76-mm BBS 118000 was released in 1941. And to distribute them in parts, taking into account the full clogging of ammunition depots in the border districts, was not a trivial task.
            1. 0
              12 February 2019 18: 25
              And besides, a number of assessments of zero armor-piercing were given as of the first months of the year - the same April, later the situation could change. But armor-piercing, in any case, was not enough
              1. +1
                13 February 2019 13: 06
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                And besides, a number of assessments of zero armor-piercing were given as of the first months of the year - the same April, later the situation could change.

                Judging by the NII-48 report, even in 1942 the BR-350A was desperately lacking.
                Shrapnel is still one of the main armor-piercing shells
        2. 0
          12 February 2019 17: 05
          From 1936 to 02.06.1941/192/700, 76 armor-piercing shells of XNUMX mm caliber were fired.

          Do I understand correctly that this is the number of ALL armor-piercing shells of 76mm caliber for regimental, division and tank guns?
          At the same time, some (perhaps a little was spent and lost during the war with Finland.
          ... In the first days of battles, when meeting with the Finns, the tanks acted as follows: first they fired obstacles and shelters from machine guns near obstacles, and then they made passages with the help of sappers. In some places, granite bumps were broken by armor-piercing shells, but there were times when tankers got out of the car and manually scrapped passages in reinforced concrete gouges.
          ... By the time the artillery preparation was over, the Kharaborkin company approached the first hollows and passed an obstacle along the passages made by sappers in them. Then, on the move, the second line of grooves was overcome, in which there were no passages. Moreover, some cars fired gouges from cannons, while others, including the Kharaborkin tank, passed along the tops of gouges, behind which was an anti-tank moat. With the help of the fascines lying on the tanks, the tankers made two passes through the moat and passed through them. Then, turning around, the tanks started a battle with the pillboxes, which restrained the infantry attack. The company commander’s tank was behind one of the bunkers. With three armor-piercing shells, the tankers smashed his armored doors, and the pillbox shut up. Using the support of the tanks, the infantrymen crossed the moat and went on the assault. By the evening of February 11, a height of 65,5 was taken. Rota Kharaborkina lost four T-28s in this battle. For the skillful leadership of the company and personal courage, the senior lieutenant Kharaborkin was awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union.
          1. +3
            12 February 2019 17: 36
            Quote: hohol95
            Do I understand correctly that this is the number of ALL armor-piercing shells of 76mm caliber for regimental, division and tank guns?

            Apparently - yes, these are all armor-piercing shells of the caliber 76-mm, released in the USSR.
            You can also recall Kulik's "Note on ATBR", in which the number of 76-mm BBS for divisions at the beginning of 1941 was given:
            In addition, the formation of 20 anti-tank brigades containing 1440 guns of 76 mm caliber will require at least 144 rounds with an armor-piercing shell, and the artillery department currently has only a little more than 000 rounds, or 20000 each 2,6 mm caliber gun.
            1. +1
              12 February 2019 17: 42
              As in an anecdote - The inscription on the doors of the PHARMACY "NO ORANGE FOR SALE! I knew that they WERE"
              There were, but in the warehouses of factories not shipped to the district.
              In the warehouses of the districts, but not shipped to units, shot during exercises and tests, and so on ...
              1. +1
                13 February 2019 13: 17
                Ulanov / Shein has a correspondence regarding the systematic disruption of the NKB's plans for the release of BBS. Kulik burned it with a verb, exposing the leadership of the NKB in an attempt to hide behind "objective reasons" the inability to organize production.
                The distribution of the order for the manufacture of shells of the NKB was obviously incorrect.
                The entire task was given only to the factory number 73 of Stalin, which later than all the plants (at the end of 1939) began to manufacture 76-mm armor-piercing shells. Not having mastered the technology of heat treatment, having a high percentage of rejects of swimming trunks that could not stand the test of armor plates, not having mastered the manufacture of ballistic caps, in April 1940 completely curtailed the production of these shells.
                Currently, the situation with the manufacture of 76-mm shells at the factory number 73 is also extremely poor. The machine shop produces only 50-100 hulls per day, and the heat shop does not have furnaces of sufficient power and conducts all processing in 2 small furnaces that do not guarantee a good quality of armor penetration.
                At the same time, from factories No. 70 - Moscow, and No. 77 - Leningrad, which mastered the technology much better, had a fully equipped fleet of mechanical equipment for the production of 40.000-45.000 cases per month - a task for 1941 for the manufacture of these shells shot.
                Part of the equipment at these plants is already switching to the manufacture of other products, while the majority is not fully used.
                © Ulanov / Shein
                And with the outbreak of war, everything only got worse ...
                The increased need for armor-piercing shots was not adequately satisfied due to the low level of industrial supplies and lack of stocks. Before the war, only three factories manufactured 76 mm armor-piercing shells - in Moscow, Leningrad and Donbass. At the beginning of the war, the southern factory curtailed its production and was evacuated, the Moscow factory launched mass production only in December 1941, and in other factories the production of this range of ammunition was still getting better
                © Artillery supply in the Great Patriotic War of 1941-45.
                1. 0
                  13 February 2019 15: 10
                  That's the whole harsh truth of those years ... And why some very responsible persons acted this way, we can only guess! They were also probably not attracted for "sabotage" ...
            2. +1
              12 February 2019 18: 26
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Apparently - yes, these are all armor-piercing shells of the caliber 76-mm, released in the USSR.

              Very similar - artillerymen reported
      4. 0
        13 February 2019 01: 45
        Thank you, that's really really beautifully dumped "aFtora" in his shit. good And then they were led to measure the spherical horses from the vacuum. But as soon as the "wonderful" pre-war tanks were knocked out to the Germans and they received, in fact, the next generation, "the problems started immediately." "What is that?"Oh, but the truth is, like with 42, the Nazis with the T-34 did not end their problems, but just began. Mmm it turns out when the front was stabilized and a normal and not a "retreating" war began, then somehow their air supremacy "broke" and the counter-battery "response" began to interfere with our positions being ironed out with impunity and "problems immediately began." am
        And then "the T-34 has a gofno and not a review", oh, what about the same Soviet "shitty" optics in the "Ferdinands" or still "wonderful" German optics, oh, why then did the Germans not win the "Ferdinands" of the USSR?

        And then "some" it turns out: in the USSR there were "shit" - tanks, rifles, tarpaulin boots, optics, airplanes, ships, submarines, there was no command, and then the "civilized Germans" are already raising their paws to the top in Berlin, Oh yes - "filled up with corpses", that's only Germany alone has military losses under 10 million snouts, and let them not lie that less, at the time of June 22, 41, the Wehrmacht was somewhere under 11 million snouts, and on May 9, 45, it was "much less" several waves of mobilization which, in fact, drove the entire male population into the trenches.
      5. 0
        14 February 2019 00: 42
        And in addition, what is called "Telescopic sight TOD-1" in the first diagram is actually the telescopic sight of a coaxial machine gun DT (under it, the embrasure of the machine gun is visible). But the TOD-6 sight is on the opposite side, to the left of the gun, because the gunner-commander was on the left. In addition, using this scope was problematic. It was possible to set the sight only at elevation angles from +6 to +4 degrees, as well as from +5,5 to +9 degrees; at other angles this was impossible due to the fact that the periscope levers overlapped the TOD-12 scale. The total vertical aiming range of the gun was from -6 to +5 degrees, but in fact, only 25 degrees (4,5% of this range) could be fired with a TOD-15 sight.
  2. 0
    11 February 2019 05: 55
    Thank you, we are waiting for the continuation, very interesting.
  3. +3
    11 February 2019 06: 14
    "American tankers on" Shermans "first entered the battle during the landing in Tunisia. Due to the lack of combat experience in the first battles, many vehicles were lost, but after learning, the Americans were able to use their M4 very effectively" from the article "Another Lend-Lease. Tank M4 "Sherman". The eternal rival of the T-34 ", so in the end we come to the same denominator, practice and experience underlie the use of technology.
    1. 0
      11 February 2019 18: 43
      ... so that in the end we come to the same denominator, practice and experience are the basis of the application of technology.

      I completely agree, especially since the experience of using I-16 has clearly shown this. smile

      Pilots of the 13th fighter air regiment of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet Air Force discuss air combat techniques with the I-16 fighter. On the left is the deputy commander of the 2nd squadron, Lieutenant Petr Antonovich Brinko (1915-1941), who in July 1941 received the title of Hero of the Soviet Union. Second right: Lieutenant Gennady Dmitrievich Tsokolayev (1916-1976).

      Source: Wladimir Karpow. "Russland im Krieg 1941-1945." SV International Schweizer Verlagshaus. Zürich, 1988.

      Sources of photo information:
      1.photo.rgakfd.ru
      2. The newspaper "Change" No. 229 of September 28, 1941
      1. +2
        12 February 2019 15: 42
        Quote: VictorZhivilov
        Pilots of the 13th fighter air regiment of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet Air Force discuss air combat techniques with the I-16 fighter. On the left is the deputy commander of the 2nd squadron, Lieutenant Petr Antonovich Brinko (1915-1941), who in July 1941 received the title of Hero of the Soviet Union. Second right: Lieutenant Gennady Dmitrievich Tsokolayev (1916-1976).

        And somewhere behind the scenes - Vasily Fedorovich Golubev - "thirteenth". Future Hero of the Soviet Union, who chalked up a successful battle on the I-16 against the FW-190.
  4. +1
    11 February 2019 07: 36
    The best organization of the German troops, the saturation of their modern radio communications at that time, the close interaction of the military branches, especially with support aviation and the high training and training of officers and junior command personnel, are the key to the victories of the German army in the fields of World War II. If we talk about tanks, then the Germans in the offensive widely used the support of tanks with artillery and aircraft - having met with stubborn defense, they did not rush through it, but called up aircraft and artillery to destroy and destroy the opened defense units. On the defensive, the Soviet attacking tanks were primarily affected by anti-tank weapons and ambush tanks, and then aviation and heavy artillery, including anti-aircraft, came to the rescue. From the recollections of both ours and German veterans, one can judge that the Germans did not like "frontal" tank attacks throughout the war and, having met resistance, immediately retreated, calling for help from aviation and artillery. What the Americans actually did. Tanks were used only in the event of a breakthrough and access to the operational space, as well as in the pursuit and destruction of a frustrated enemy. In the Red Army, unfortunately, the tank wasn’t so, according to its commanders, it was a means of breakthrough, that is, it alone had to break into the enemy’s defenses or counter his attack and therefore tanks rushed forward almost always without any support from other military branches and therefore, they were quickly destroyed by the enemy at the prepared lines of the VET. Only by 1943 did the Red Army realize that a tank without the support of infantry and other military branches was a vulnerable military branch on the modern battlefield. This was clearly manifested during the offensive of the Red Army in the final period of the war, when the German troops, especially the infantry, were saturated with a variety of effective anti-tank equipment (especially "faust", "panzershrek", etc.). However, this understanding did not stop the command of the Red Army from the practice of mass use of tanks as a means of breakthrough, without close interaction with other types of troops - until the end of the war, tanks massively rushed to the anti-tank system prepared by the enemy and suffered terrible losses, crushing the German defense in numbers. The command of the Red Army believed that the losses of armored vehicles were fully compensated for by the "timing" of breaking through the defense (such as faster). In some ways, of course, they were right, but this speed was achieved at a very high price. In addition, the loss of tank crews in the spacecraft was greatly affected and tough orders not to leave even damaged tanks if he could either move or fire. On the one hand, it was right — they (orders) appeared not from scratch, but after the loss of almost all the armored vehicles accumulated before the war, which for the most part was simply abandoned due to minor malfunctions, etc. and it was also necessary to force tankers to use their weapons as efficiently as possible, to increase their stability in the conditions of a chronic lack of new equipment, when factories were transported to other places and the release of weapons was significantly reduced.
  5. +6
    11 February 2019 07: 57
    It’s not tanks fighting, on their own - tank formations are fighting. And these are primarily people.
    In the aforementioned book "Order in the Tank Forces" it is worth paying attention to the report of the future Marshal M.Ye. Katukova. 30% of the personnel were illiterate, the majority of the remaining 3-4 grade education.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. 0
      12 February 2019 12: 57
      Quote: Snakebyte
      30% of the personnel were illiterate,

      They were probably from Central Asia or the Old Believers of their mother Siberia. or gypsies. 24 years of Soviet power and absolutely illiterate people is an extremely incomprehensible situation. Katukov expressed himself figuratively and not literally, solely to protect his honor and dignity.
      1. +1
        12 February 2019 16: 48
        Quote: mark1
        They were probably from Central Asia or the Old Believers of their mother Siberia. or gypsies. 24 years of Soviet power and absolutely illiterate people is an extremely incomprehensible situation. Katukov expressed himself figuratively and not literally, solely to protect his honor and dignity.

        Most likely, it was not Katukov, but the commander of 17 MK Petrov:
        Recruitment by rank and file is mainly due to the March draft of recruits (70-90%). Parts are 100% complete with recruits
        The quality of replenishment by education is up to 50% with education not higher than 4 classes.
        The presence of a large number of nationalities that are poorly fluent and completely fluent in Russian will make it difficult

        Katukov’s complaint was more detailed:
        As a result of such manning, at present in the units of the division entrusted to me there are hundreds of people who are completely unsuitable for serving in tank units in terms of their physical condition, literacy and knowledge of the Russian language, and in fact are ballast, namely:
        Natives of the national republic of non-Russian nationality 1914 people. or 23.2% of them 236 people who do not speak Russian at all ...
        Illiterate - 211 people, illiterate 622 people, with the formation of 3-4 groups of 3571 people.
        Old ages (26-30 years) 745 people.
        341 people who were tried and convicted ...
        81 people unfit for combat service at the conclusion of a garrison medical commission 418 people unsuitable for service in tank units and for combat service according to the conclusion of the medical commission of the unit, but have not yet passed the garrison commission ...

        In general, the situation with the formation in the BTV Red Army was awful. Here are the statistics on KOVO:

        Not bad, huh?
        Ordinary 3rd year of service: a total of 274 people, of which 168 people. - 1-3 grades of education.
        Ordinary 2nd year of service: a total of 26407 people., 1-3 classes - from 14859 people.
        Ordinary 1nd year of service: a total of 52123 people., 1-3 classes - from 32625 people.

        And, the cherry on the cake is the junior command structure: a total of 16351 people, of which 6646 people have 1-3 classes. And these are the very people who are taught the above rank and file.
        1. 0
          12 February 2019 16: 59
          Of course, the literacy situation was "awful" - but there were no absolutely illiterate people, they could write letters, and then the training of personnel, that's where the problem lies! People simply did not learn anything due to the short preparation time and the level of teachers
          1. +1
            12 February 2019 17: 45
            Quote: mark1
            People simply did not learn anything due to the short training time and the level of training

            You should also keep in mind that training was often conducted in the conditions of "visual aids - no, instructions - no, classes - no, equipment under a tarp, allowed to spend no more than 10 hours per year, training and combat vehicles - a little more than a hundred for 5 districtsFor example, manuals for the same T-34 were planned for the second half of 1941.
            In such conditions, an even greater burden fell on the junior command staff - he should literally on fingers clarify complex technique. And if this very youngest command staff knew little about it, wait for trouble.
            In the infantry, a similar problem killed rearmament at the SVT - there was no one to explain in detail and convey to subordinates the features of the assembly and disassembly, cleaning and adjustment of the gas regulator.
        2. 0
          13 February 2019 00: 21
          Quote: Alexey RA
          And, the cherry on the cake is the junior command staff: a total of 16351 people, of which 6646 people have 1-3 classes

          But just the top staff, 3% tower, 25% of the central vocational school do not bother you?
          1. 0
            13 February 2019 13: 33
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            But just the top staff, 3% tower, 25% of the central vocational school do not bother you?

            After statistics on the education of cadets of the early 30s (the future command staff of the late 30s), it is already difficult for me to confuse with something.
            It seems that we still do not realize how low the level of general education of the Red Army commanders was in the 30s - not only after the repressions, but even earlier. For example, in 1929, 81,6 percent (and in infantry schools — 90,8 percent) of the army enrolled in military schools had only primary education or had none at all! In January 1932, 79,1 percent of cadets of military schools had primary education, in January 1936, 68,5 percent (but 85 percent in armored ones).
            © Smirnov
      2. 0
        19 February 2019 06: 32
        Quote: mark1

        They were probably from Central Asia or the Old Believers of their mother Siberia. or gypsies. 24 years of Soviet power and absolutely illiterate people is an extremely incomprehensible situation. Katukov expressed himself figuratively and not literally, solely to protect his honor and dignity.

        It is precisely in Katukov’s report that there is evidence of the achievements of Soviet power - he mentions that the newcomers to the 1940 draft are so superior to the old-timers that it’s better to put them on sergeants.
        That is, the mass educational program of the Bolsheviks moved from quantity to quality by 1940. One can imagine that by 1942 almost all personnel would have possessed such qualities. Indeed, history has given us little time.
  6. +6
    11 February 2019 08: 12

    Dear Andrey! You missed the very FIRST ride of Soviet designers to do without the commander's cupola on the T-34 tank! You didn't mention the "CIRCULAR VIEWER".
    During November-December 1940, the first three production vehicles of the T-34 were subjected to intensive tests at the NIBTPPolygon GABTU of the Red Army. The report on these tests has recently been often cited in various sources, but as a rule, it is never cited in detail. Meanwhile, its contents can provide the basis for serious thought about another legend about the T-34. Here is this report:
    ...The viewing device "circular view" is installed to the right-rear of the tank commander in the roof of the tower. Access to the device is extremely difficult, and observation is possible in a limited sector: horizontal view to the right up to 120 °; dead space 15 m.
    1. +3
      11 February 2019 08: 26
      He did not miss, he confused him with the PTK.
      1. +4
        11 February 2019 08: 37
        And the TOD-6 sight was used only for the L-11 gun. For the F-34 gun, the TOD-7 telescopic sight was subsequently replaced by TMFD-7.
  7. +3
    11 February 2019 08: 16

    As early as 1940, such a significant shortcoming of the tank was noted as the poor placement of observation devices and their low quality. So, for example, an all-round viewing device was installed to the right behind the tank commander in the cover of the tower hatch. Access to the device was extremely difficult, and observation is possible in a limited sector: horizontal viewing to the right up to 120 °; the dead space is 15 m. The limited field of view, the complete impossibility of observation in the rest of the sector, as well as the inconvenient position of the head during observation made the viewing device completely unusable. For this reason, in the fall of 1941, this device was withdrawn. As a result, only the PT-4-7 periscope sight could be used for circular observation, but it allowed observing in a very narrow sector - 26 °.

  8. BAI
    +1
    11 February 2019 09: 35
    1.
    our sights were very perfect, moreover: the Americans who studied the T-34 at the Aberdeen training ground even concluded that his sight was “the best in design in the world”, but noted mediocre optics. As a matter of fact, this was the first significant drawback of our sight in comparison with the German one: in principle, they provided the gunner with comparable capabilities, but the manufacture of lenses of the German device was distinguished by the traditionally high quality of German optics, while we had it slightly worse before the war, and in its initial period it became at some point completely bad, during the evacuation of the plant that produced it. However, even in the worst of times, it was impossible to talk about an inoperable sight for Soviet tanks.

    Halder: "The T-34 sight is bad, the optics are muddy." Not literally, but the word "muddy" was accurate.
    2.
    Perhaps, only tank crews who had the opportunity to fight in both Soviet and captured German vehicles could truthfully answer this question.

    There are memories of a German tanker who fought on the T-34. He claims that he would like to fight in a German tank.
  9. +5
    11 February 2019 09: 47
    It seems to me that Andrei nevertheless did not pay enough attention to the usability of the T-34, although it highlighted many aspects of this issue ..
    This is a very important factor affecting combat use, and traditionally underestimated.
    The small armored volume of the t-34, which is a consequence of its roots, imposed strong restrictions on possible structural solutions, including in observation devices.
    Formally, there are devices, but it is impossible or very inconvenient to use them.
    The fifth person only exacerbated the problem.
    There is another nuance that distinguishes the T-34 from the Germans.
    Tankers, due to various constructive solutions, the Germans were located close to the center of mass of the tank, unlike the Soviet tankers on the t-34, in addition, the Germans paid much attention to the smoothness of movement, which led to the fact that on the same rough terrain in the Germans swayed in battle, and ours jumped up and down, which greatly did not contribute to the observation and convenience of the driver.
    This flaw was incorrigible in principle.
    Insufficient attention is traditionally paid to the resource, primarily the t-34 engine, which even by the end of the war was very small, and at the beginning simply miserable.
    in practice, this led to the fact that it was much easier for the Germans to transfer armored vehicles to different sectors of the front, creating the effect of a larger number of tanks than it actually was.
    To accomplish the same tasks, the Soviet side needed to have noticeably more tanks just because of their limited motor resources, and to go to the tactically vicious irrational location of armored vehicles near the front line, which Andrei rightly noted.
    He also rightly noted that the poor preparation of the mechanic guides was not the result of wrecking, but the meager motor resources of the tank.
    The consequence of which were significant combat and non-combat losses.
    The conclusion from here is to the Soviet side to solve the same issues as the Germans needed much more tanks than the Germans. And this situation was not corrected during the war. The country tore the navel, building more tanks than the Germans needed in a similar situation, including due to the inherent t-34 system design flaws.
    It is well known that, ceteris paribus, in an armed conflict, heavy losses will be incurred by a party forced to retreat and lose its territory. This is also true for the Red Army: for example, in the Moscow defensive operation, which lasted more than two months, from September 30 to December 5, 1941, we lost a total of 2 tanks of all types, or almost 785 tanks per month, but for one month of the offensive Moscow operation (December 1, 400 - January 5, 1941) the losses amounted to only 7 vehicles, that is, the monthly average is more than three times less than in the defensive (I. Shmelev data).

    Controversial, in my opinion. Tanks in the offensive, as a rule, deal not with tanks, but with anti-tank missiles, so the losses are much greater. As for the example, so the tanks ended. you cannot lose more than you have wink
    1. +3
      11 February 2019 10: 59
      that on the same rough terrain in battle the Germans swayed

      German tank crews managed only caps, maybe alpine caps, although at the beginning of WWII they had berets. To our tankmen, without a helmet in any way. And crowded and shaking.

      1. +2
        11 February 2019 21: 34

        American tankers also cherished their heads ...
      2. +2
        12 February 2019 17: 33
        Quote: igordok
        To our tankmen, without a helmet in any way. And crowded and shaking.

        Plus, a headset is not only a protection of the head, but also a connection (no need to put headphones on over the headgear).
        Hush, commander! The hat is talking ...
        ©
        Hmmm ... wrote - and immediately remembered "cry for tangents"kenigtiger-a and his"the most popular ways killing a BTT connection".
    2. +1
      12 February 2019 14: 06
      Quote: Avior
      Controversial, in my opinion. Tanks in the offensive, as a rule, deal not with tanks, but with anti-tank missiles, so the losses are much greater.

      General - yes, more. But with a successful offensive, there is less irrecoverability, since their damaged tanks remain on their land and are evacuated. And other people's damaged tanks go into trophies - that is, irrevocable. Moreover, seemingly evacuated vehicles also go into non-return - together with captured SPAM or right on the march, together with a tractor (like "panthers" after Kursk).
      Another thing is that with unsuccessful on the offensive, damaged vehicles remain on the territory of the enemy - and go into irrevocability. In this regard, the northern face of Stalingrad is indicative, on which, after months of unsuccessful attacks, almost ten times more of our destroyed tanks remained than German ones (according to the estimates of our trophies).
      Quote: Avior
      As for the example, so the tanks ended. you cannot lose more than you have

      Heh heh heh ... but no, there were operations in which the total losses of armored vehicles were several times higher than its presence in the troops. The reason is repair cheaters, who often returned machines to service several times.
      1. -1
        12 February 2019 22: 59
        I'm about a specific situation then. By the end of 1941, the tanks were greatly reduced.
        and the fact that the tanks were captured in an unhealthy state is understandable, such a situation is more than real.
        but the situation in which the attackers have large losses from the PTA, and not from the enemy’s tanks, is just as real.
        just an example is not entirely successful in the article selected.
        In general, the tank losses of the USSR were higher almost all the years of the war, as I understand it.
        that attacked, that defended ...
  10. -2
    11 February 2019 10: 05
    By the way, there is a rather interesting interview of the Echo correspondent with the famous publicist on the "tank topic" M. Baryatinsky called "The Price of Victory" (the name is probably because the interview was held on "Matza's Ear") ... https: // echo .msk.ru / programs / victory / 496844-echo / wink
  11. +2
    11 February 2019 11: 59
    Many thanks to the author for this interesting article, we look forward to continuing.
  12. +2
    11 February 2019 12: 02
    Tolkovo Tolkovo! If you raise the memories of the tankers, the observation devices in the T-34 were useless. Peroscopic instruments were two polished strips of metal covered with glass. Naturally they gave terrible distortions! As for the losses in the first months of the war. That main part of the equipment was lost precisely because of the lack of fuel and ammunition. Since the warehouses were extended to the borders and in the early days were captured by the healer.
  13. +1
    11 February 2019 12: 05
    Conversely, the KwK 37 L / 24 artillery system mounted on the T-4 could function well in field fortifications, infantry, and other unarmored targets, but, due to the low initial velocity of the projectile, which was only 385 m / s, it was much inferior to L-11 , and F-34 in the possibilities of defeating enemy armored vehicles.

    But in terms of supporting infantry, suppressing firing points, shelters, destroying manpower behind shelters at the front edge, a short-barreled gun with howitzer capabilities fits perfectly! The Germans assigned the fight against enemy tanks to the PTA, and the T-4 were to directly fulfill the whims of the infantry commanders when breaking through the enemy’s defense hi
    1. 0
      11 February 2019 13: 31
      T-4, say, were to fulfill the whims of infantry commanders?
      And when breaking through the enemy’s defense?
      Why then "artillery attacks" - Stug3, Stug4, Stug40?
    2. +1
      12 February 2019 14: 45
      Quote: Rurikovich
      But in terms of supporting infantry, suppressing firing points, shelters, destroying manpower behind shelters at the front edge, a short-barreled gun with howitzer capabilities fits perfectly!

      For this, an assault assault gun with a large-caliber gun is ideally suited. Or normal artillery.
      A tank when firing "in howitzer mode" will burn shells in vain - zeroing in, adjustments, crew training for artillerymen and a large ammo rack are needed. Plus, the caliber of 75-76 mm is small even for "parsing" field fortifications - here you need to place the shell exactly in the embrasure or door.
    3. 0
      13 February 2019 10: 48
      The Germans assigned the fight against enemy tanks to the PTA

      Still for this case, attack aircraft were adapted with their jump airfields. smile

      German dive bomber Junkers U-87 drops a bomb on French tanks. In the photograph, a German diving aircraft in the modification of the Yu-87A, which by 1939 had already been withdrawn from the German combat units and transferred to training units. In this regard, it can be assumed that the photo shows the training attack of the Yu-87A at the training ground.
      Source: http://waralbum.ru/133269/
  14. 0
    11 February 2019 14: 24
    It got to the point that T-34 drivers were taught to drive in other cars!

    The Germans were also trained on decommissioned light tanks, on captured ones, and even on mechanized models.
    Maybe our cars with a resource were not so bad as it might seem at first glance ...

    The same tank diesel can be used long after the claimed resource has been exhausted. Efficiency will simply fall sharply. The tank will still be able to move along the road, but on the slope it will have to climb in reverse, and in the ditch it will completely get stuck.
    the actual technical problems of the T-34 were neither major nor somewhat significant among the reasons for the defeat of the armored troops of the Red Army at the initial stage of the war

    A huge number of non-combat losses in the tank troops at the beginning of the war is a parable.
    1. 0
      12 February 2019 15: 01
      Quote: brn521
      The Germans were also trained on decommissioned light tanks, on captured ones, and even on mechanized models.

      This is possible only for tactical training of the unit (we used T-27 instead of new equipment for this).
      For the "technical" training of the crew of a specific model of the vehicle, it must be trained on it. Otherwise, the same T-34 mechanic will be extremely surprised by the engine stalled when changing gears or stopping the tank when changing gears. And how much joy the main clutch will bring him ...
      And do not forget that all crew members had to be trained in driving a tank.
  15. 0
    11 February 2019 16: 52
    nice and balanced!
    "there was a relatively low reliability and exactingness to the qualifications of the driver."
    just could not prepare so many skilled mechanics, and most importantly, the importance was not understood, but the last author showed quite well in the text ...
  16. The comment was deleted.
    1. 0
      11 February 2019 21: 02
      Quote: MKG
      I don’t know what to have in my head (or maybe on the contrary, not to have), to praise the Soviet three-inch.

      By the way, they made some semblance of a full-fledged tank gun in the USSR in 1937 (L-10). It was based on ammunition from the time of 1MB (tsarist times, and this is important) and for the 1937 level it can be considered a good tank gun

      Your question remains valid. L-10 gun, barrel length - 26 cal., Projectile speed - 555 m / s
      F-34 gun, barrel length - 41 cal., Projectile speed - 655 m / s.
      ... although the answer is obvious.
  17. +1
    11 February 2019 18: 53
    Well, our T-34s fired with 76,2 mm blanks and, of course, the armor effect of the "caliber" ammunition was much higher than that of the 50 and 75 mm German sub-caliber guns.
    AUTHOR, do you know exactly what you are writing about?
    The caliber projectile does not chip away in the annulus, but pierces the armor.
    About ships would ....
    1. -1
      11 February 2019 21: 28
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      Well, our T-34s fired with 76,2 mm blanks and, of course, the armor effect of the "caliber" ammunition was much higher than that of the 50 and 75 mm German sub-caliber guns.
      AUTHOR, do you know exactly what you are writing about?
      The caliber projectile does not chip away in the annulus, but pierces the armor.
      About ships would ....

      But what about armor-piercing armor like a knife through oil passes?
      And the fragments should be given by the sea.
      1. +1
        12 February 2019 05: 43
        Do not be shy. Compare with a cumulative projectile, you think the "crumb" is melted, but the crumb. And a 76-mm blank will be equal to it in efficiency.
      2. 0
        12 February 2019 12: 17
        Read carefully. It is said that the zabronovoe effect of the caliber disc is much higher ....
        A sledgehammer on the tank is also effective, everyone will be blinded by scale.
    2. 0
      12 February 2019 12: 46
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      AUTHOR, do you know exactly what you are writing about?
      The caliber projectile does not chip away in the annulus, but pierces the armor.

      It is generally a question of the fact that the 7,62 mm disc piercing armor is more effective than the 20 mm sub-caliber warhead of the 50-mm projectile that did the same
  18. +1
    11 February 2019 21: 17
    I look at the photo of 34 matches - it looks like a cat. Then he remembered: the designer is Koshkin! laughing Sam feline love since childhood. This is probably why the tank is finished. laughing
    1. +2
      12 February 2019 11: 58
      but the Germans called him Mickey Mouse
      1. +2
        12 February 2019 12: 21
        The first Soviet tank called "Mickey Mouse" by the Germans was the BT-7!
        And then perhaps this nickname migrated to the T-34 with hex turrets "nuts" because of the two landing hatches in the turret roof!
        1. +1
          12 February 2019 12: 29
          thank you for clarifying hi
          1. +1
            12 February 2019 12: 31
            Trifle! Such information is described in the literature. hi
  19. -1
    12 February 2019 01: 49
    The T-34 lost to the T-3 and T-4 tactically, that is, on the battlefield. The victory over the "Tigers" and "Panthers" was a strategic victory. Breakthrough of the front line, swift coverage, cutting of supply lines. It is impossible to deliver fuel and b / p. The book "Tankman in a Foreign Car", the author describes a battle when fuel trucks were destroyed in a convoy of "Tigers". In the morning they entered the village, and there the entire battalion of "Tigers" was burned by the Germans themselves. Although they attacked the column with three Shermans. The victory of the T-34 can be attributed to numerous shortcomings in the "Tigers" (new technology), the impossibility of evacuation from the battlefield (lack of a tractor)
  20. 0
    12 February 2019 12: 35
    Quote: Jura 27
    Before the war there were about 3 thousand 180 armor-piercing units (I don't remember exactly). That is, approximately 90 units for each German tank with anti-cannon armor. That is, it was a matter of logistics and competence, and not in the lack of armor-piercing shells.

    A highly controversial statement. Warehouses of the western districts very quickly became the property of the Germans. And logistics during the retreat ....
  21. +1
    12 February 2019 15: 06
    while the commander of the T-34 had to slowly inspect a limited sector of space ahead of the right of his "iron horse" ...

    What is still very difficult on the go for an optical device with magnification.
    German tankers used binoculars


    A widespread wound of a German tank commander is fragmentation when examining a battlefield with binoculars.

    By the way
    I tried to watch the T-34-85 post-war release in the triplexes of the commander’s turret - a very nasty review. Periscope instruments even had a good quality mirror surface - not polished steel since the beginning of the Second World War. Still a very poor review.
  22. 0
    12 February 2019 15: 14
    Andrey from Chelyabinsk? And about tanks? Surprised.) But what about the fleet?
  23. 0
    12 February 2019 16: 27
    Another event hit us like a ton of bricks: the Russian T-34 tanks first appeared! The amazement was complete. How could it happen that there, above, they did not know about the existence of this excellent tank?

    The T-34, with its good armor, perfect shape and magnificent 76, 2-mm long-barreled gun, thrilled everyone, and all German tanks were afraid of him until the end of the war. What were we to do with these monsters, many thrown against us? At that time, the 37 mm gun was still our strongest anti-tank weapon. If we were lucky, we could get into the shoulder strap of the T-34 tower and jam it. If you are even more lucky, the tank after that will not be able to operate effectively in battle. Of course, not a very encouraging situation!


    Otto Carius "Tigers in the Mud"

    He also notes a low awareness of the actions of Soviet tankmen:
    We are fortunate that the Russians acted, lifting up tightly, as they always did, and did not have time to quickly assess the nature of the terrain. Kersher also did not notice the tank, because he was approaching almost from the rear. He walked past him at a distance of no more than 30 meters. [107]

    I managed to tell Kerscher in time: “Hey Kersher, the T-34 is behind you, watch out!” Everything happened in no time. Kersher met the Russians at point blank range.

    However, the other five T-34 tanks did not open fire - apparently, they could not understand who had knocked them out and where they had fired from.


    Otto Carius mentions the tactical mistakes of Soviet tankmen:
    The rules that we were guided by were: "Shoot first, and if you can’t do this, at least attack first." The prerequisite for this, of course, was the full functioning of the communication from tank to tank, as well as between crew members. Moreover, a fast and accurate gun aiming system was required. In most cases, the Russians lacked both of these premises. For this reason, they often found themselves at a disadvantage, even though they were not inferior to us in armor, weapons and maneuverability. With tanks "Joseph Stalin" they even surpassed us.
  24. 0
    12 February 2019 16: 36
    And about the monitoring devices T-34
    About Carius:

    The most important thing, when all conditions regarding the equipment are met, are the personal initiative and determination of the commander who is watching the progress of the battle. This was the key to success in confronting significant numerically superior enemy units. The lack of proper observation among the Russians often led to the defeat of large parts. Tank commanders who shut down hatches at the start of an attack and open them only after the goal is reached are worthless, or at least second-rate commanders. Of course, there are six or eight viewing devices installed in a circle in each tower to provide surveillance of the terrain, but they are good only for observing individual sections of the terrain, limited by the ability of each individual viewing device. If the commander looks into the left observation device, while the anti-tank gun opens fire on the right, then it will take him a long time before he recognizes it from the inside of the tightly closed tank.

    Unfortunately, projectile hits are felt before the sound of enemy gun shots is heard, because the projectile speed is higher than the speed of sound. Consequently, the eyes for the tank commander are more important than the ears. As a result of the fact that the shells burst in the immediate vicinity, the sound of gun shots was not heard at all in the tank. It’s a completely different matter when the tank commander pokes his head out of the open hatch from time to time to observe the terrain. If he looks a certain distance to the left, while the enemy cannon opens fire from the same distance to the right, his eye will unknowingly catch a flash that stains the gun’s barrel with yellow. His attention will immediately be shifted to a new direction, and the target is usually recognized on time. It all depends on the quick recognition of a dangerous target. Usually everything is decided by seconds. Everything that I said above applies to tanks equipped with periscopes.

    That talks about mistakes in the tactics of using tanks.
    The destruction of the anti-tank gun was often considered by amateurs and soldiers of other branches of the armed forces as an outstanding business. Only the destruction of other tanks was considered a success. On the contrary, experienced tankers believed that anti-tank guns posed a doubly more serious threat. They were much more dangerous for us. The anti-tank gun was in ambush, well camouflaged and expertly installed, taking into account the specifics of the terrain. For this reason, it was very difficult to recognize and even harder to get into because of its small height. Usually we did not see an anti-tank gun until it fired the first shot.


    No one will deny that many tank officers and commanders died because they poked their heads out of the tank. But their death was not in vain. If they rode with their hatches closed, then a much larger number of people would find their death or be seriously injured in their tanks. Significant losses in the Russian tank forces testify to the truth of this statement. Fortunately for us, they almost always drove over rough terrain with tightly shut hatches.


    Well, Carius states now the well-known:
    For a long time, the Russian crew of the tank consisted of only four people. The commander himself had all the time to observe, aim at the target and open fire. For this reason, they were always in a less favorable position than the adversary who shared these important functions between two people. Shortly after the outbreak of war, the Russians recognized the benefits of a crew of five. As a result, they changed the design of their tanks - installed a commander’s turret on the tower and added the commander’s seat.


    Those. In addition to technical problems, the crew’s tactics also called the crew’s composition, also tactical — low operational awareness of the tank crews of both the T-34 and the IS-2
  25. +1
    13 February 2019 10: 55
    ... therefore, in the next article we will consider the history of improving the design of the T-34 - and, at the same time, changing the structure of the tank forces and the role of the “thirty-four” in battle.

    Let's wait with impatience ... Fortunately, the topic of "improving the design of the T-34" is very extensive. smile

    Soviet tankers serve medium T-34 tanks. The picture shows the cars of different years of production: in the depths of the picture, the machine of production of factory No. 112 Krasnoye Sormovo of the 1941 model, the second machine of production of the Omsk factory No. 174 of the 1942 model, the closest machine of the output of the Omsk factory No. 174 of the 1943 model (the commander’s turret is on the tower )

    Photo Information Source:
    1. Kirsanov S. T-34-76 from top to bottom. Part 1 (Front-line illustration, 2006, No. 6). - M., KM Strategy LLC, 2006
  26. 0
    18 February 2019 21: 10
    Continuation of "ballet"!
    Three types of guns were installed on the "classic" T-34: L-11 and F-32 (barrel length 30,5 cal.), F-34 (barrel length 41,5 cal.) With different ballistics. The L-11 had a congenital design defect that could lead to the destruction of recoil systems during intensive firing in a tank. Before the war, 76 mm armor-piercing shells were withdrawn from the mechanized corps for the needs of the infantry.
    The conclusion about the technical side is very weak in my opinion. The appearance in mass quantities of Kw.k.38 has already created many problems for the T-34. The design of the T-34 was obsolete and in many decisions was inferior to the T-28, which appeared 7 years earlier.
  27. 0
    19 February 2019 13: 12
    Yes, I forgot to point out the economic component. The T-34 of the 1941 model (pre-war) cost about 100000 rubles more than the T-28 of the 1939 model! And this is with a larger release!