Why T-34 lost to PzKpfw III, but won against Tigers and Panthers. Return to brigades

349
In the article "Pre-war structure of the auto-armored forces of the Red Army" we focused on the formation of pre-war tank corps, which before the start of the war were gigantic formations, the basis of which was 2 tank and motorized divisions, plus parts of reinforcement and control. The staffing of such a mechanized corps was 36 people, it included 080 tanks of almost all types that were in service with the Red Army (KV-1, T-031, BT-1, T-34, flamethrower and amphibious tanks).

Alas, the majority of the most manned and combat-ready mechanized corps, which we had at the beginning of World War II, were lost during the border battle and the battles that followed. There were a lot of reasons for this, and we listed them in detail earlier:



1. The strategic initiative belonged to our enemy, while the USSR had no plans to repel such an invasion. The fact is that the war plan of the USSR envisaged the disruption of the deployment of the German army by forces deployed in border districts, but intelligence "overslept" and we had to repel the invasion of a fully mobilized and deployed enemy.

2. The superiority of the Germans in the number of personnel, the unfortunate disposition of our troops.

3. Worst training of the staffs and personnel of the Red Army, less combat experience in comparison with the Wehrmacht, a weak link, which made it extremely difficult to control the troops.

4. And finally, the organizational and technical reasons are the suboptimal composition of the mechanized corps, an insufficient number of vehicles and tractors in them, design flaws and “childhood diseases” of the newest T-34 and KV tanks, including in the small resource of these combat vehicles.



All this together determined the defeat of the Red Army at the initial stage of the war and the defeat of its mechanized corps. What next? It was quite obvious that such compounds did not justify themselves, and the attempt to form new mechanized corps does not make sense. But what should have come to replace them? The Red Army already had experience in creating tank and mechanized divisions of various composition, but nevertheless the choice was made in favor of tank brigades. The decree of the State Defense Committee No. GKO-570ss of 23 of August 1941 stated:

“When forming new tank units, install two main types of organization of tank forces:

a) a separate tank battalion in the rifle division;

b) tank crew.

Tank divisions and mechanized corps will no longer be formed. "


At the same time, a little earlier, 12 of August of the same year, the State Defense Committee issued the order No. 0063 “On the formation of separate tank brigades”, according to which 1 should have already formed 1942 of such connections in the period before 120 in January. Let us consider in more detail what went in the stead of the mechanized corps and the tank divisions.

The tank brigade had a new, not previously used staff: in fact, it was formed on the basis of two regiments, tank and motorized rifle, besides having anti-tank and anti-aircraft divisions, four companies — reconnaissance, motor, control and repair, brigade management and medical platoon. In other words, according to the original idea of ​​the creators, the new tank brigade was a kind of “tank division in miniature”, which, however, lacked field artillery. As for the total number of the brigade of the “sample of August 1941”, there is a small mystery here, which the author, unfortunately, has not figured out.

The fact is that the number of personnel of a separate tank brigade was to be 3 268 people. At the same time, in the well-known to the author transcripts of the number of brigades by division, the number of the motorized regiment of the whole 709 people is indicated. This is too small for a regiment, and besides, by summing up its number with other units, we get the number of the brigade equal to 1 997 people. It remains for the author to assume that the idea of ​​completing brigades with a full-fledged motorized regiment very quickly followed the path of all good intentions simply because of a shortage of vehicles, as a result of which they had to restrict themselves to a motorized battalion.

As for the tank regiment of the brigade, he, alas, was also a kind of "mechanized corps in miniature", because he had a tank of three different types in the 91 state. The regiment initially consisted of a battalion of light, medium and heavy tanks, and two battalions of light tanks, and included 7 KV, 20 T-34 and 64 T-40 or T-60, and the number of personnel reached 548 people. However, less than a month later, the 13 September 1941 g., The regiment was significantly reduced - now it included only 67 tanks, including battalions: 7 KV, 22 T-34 and 32 T-40 or T-60.

Alas, but even that turned out to be too much for our industry, and 9 in December, 1941 was waiting for another detachment of tank crews. The tank regiment disappeared - the 2 battalion took its place, each of which had 5 KV, 7 T-34 and 10 T-60 in its structure, and only 46 tanks were in the brigade from then on (there was an 2 tank of management in addition). The staff number of the brigade was reduced to 1 471 people.

But this was not the limit. The separate tank crew according to 15 approved February 1942, had the same 46 tanks, and the number of T-34 in the battalions increased from 7 to 10, and T-60, on the contrary, decreased from 10 to 8, but the number of motorized The battalion was reduced from 719 to 402 people. Thus, the staff number of the brigade again decreased, and amounted to 1 107 people. This number was the minimum for the tank forces of the Red Army, and in the future the number of tank brigades and larger units only increased. True, there existed in the Red Army tank brigades and a smaller number, but we are talking about specialized brigades intended for operations as part of cavalry corps. As a rule, they were assigned the same 46 tanks, but the heavy KVs were not included in it, as were the supporting units, including the motorized battalion and so on, since their functions were performed by the cavalry corps.

How justified was the decision to abandon armored and motorized divisions in favor of individual brigades? Reasoning from the point of view of the theory of tank war, this, of course, was a great setback in comparison with the pre-war formations. But in practice, apparently, it was the only correct decision in that situation.

As mentioned earlier, individual tank companies, battalions and regiments attached to rifle and cavalry divisions did not justify the hopes placed on them during the Soviet-Finnish war. Therefore, it was decided to abandon them, and to reduce equipment and personnel into separate tank brigades, whose task would be to support rifle and cavalry corps. At the same time, mechanized corps were formed to conduct a maneuverable war.

This was not the worst distribution of duties, but after 1941 g was decided in the winter to bring the number of mechanized corps to 30, there was categorically not enough tanks for their formation. Separate tank brigades were quite predictably transferred to new mechanized corps. But after such "brigade cannibalization", rifle and cavalry formations were left completely without tank support!

It was wrong, because both infantry and cavalry, of course, needed the support of armored vehicles, but where did it come from? As a result, in the very first days of the war, a significant part of the mechanized corps' forces were "pulled out" to support rifle divisions and died with them. That is, combat experience irrefutably showed that tank forces, in addition to large, "heavy" formations intended for maneuvering war, entering into a breakthrough, actions on the operational rear of the enemy armies and fronts, also needed infantry units.



Moreover - after the death of the main mechanized forces in the border battle and further, the task of supporting the task again came to the fore, and in the rush of the infantry divisions being formed - at least to give them greater combat stability. This, of course, did not mean at all that the Red Army was refusing to carry out deep operations on the enemy’s environment. As a matter of fact, already in the course of the battle near Moscow, the Soviet counteroffensive almost led to the encirclement of Army Group Center or its individual parts. For example, there was a moment when the last communication of the German 4 tank and 9 armies was the only Smolensk-Vyazma railroad. The Red Army lacked only a little bit ...

However, what was done was enough to bring the Wehrmacht to a crisis literally at all levels. Many military leaders demanded the immediate withdrawal of troops, since only this could save the personnel of Army Group Center. Kurt ph Tippelskirch, a German general whose memoirs are considered the “golden fund” historical literature about the Second World War, since they are distinguished by an amazing desire for impartiality, he spoke of this idea:

“From an operational point of view, this thought was undoubtedly correct. Nevertheless, Hitler spoke out against her with all the energy of his indomitable character. He could not accept her out of fear of dropping his prestige; he was also afraid — and not without reason — that such a large withdrawal would cause a decline in the morale of the army. Finally, there was no guarantee that it would be possible to stop the outgoing troops in a timely manner.».


Translated into Russian, this means that neither the generals nor the Führer himself were confident of their own troops, and they seriously feared that the “organized withdrawal to previously prepared positions” would turn into a massive and uncontrolled flight. The situation was stabilized only by the resignation of the commander-in-chief of the land forces, Field Marshal von Brauchitsch, whose place was taken by Hitler, and the army believed him unconditionally. And, of course, the famous “stop-order” “Not one step back!”, Which the German army received about six months earlier than the Red Army, since a similar order (No. XXUMX) was signed by I.V. Stalin only on the eve of the Battle of Stalingrad.

Nevertheless, despite carrying out such a large-scale operation, as a result of which the Wehrmacht suffered the most sensitive defeat for the first time in its history, the main leitmotif of the Red Army was defensive battles, in which tank brigades were extremely popular as a means of supporting infantry divisions. In addition, as we said earlier, the brigade organization of tank troops was well known and mastered by the Red Army. But, in addition to all of the above, there were other arguments in favor of tank brigades.

The fact is that the tank division is, without a doubt, an extremely formidable force, the “top of the food pyramid” of the ground forces. But - only if it is competently controlled by correctly applying tanks, motorized or self-propelled artillery, anti-tank guns and motorized infantry in the right place at the right time. And the organization of such management is very difficult - it is the competence of the division commander and his staff, and the level of communication, and the level of interaction between the individual units. In other words, a tank division is an extremely formidable tool of war, but it is extremely difficult to manage. So, in 1941, we, apparently, still lacked the skill to use tank divisions, even if we had them - there was not enough training, the level of commanders, communications, everything.

In this respect, the career of one of the best Soviet commanders of the tank forces, Mikhail Yefimovich Katukov, is very indicative.

Why T-34 lost to PzKpfw III, but won against Tigers and Panthers. Return to brigades


The war found him the commander of the 20-second tank division, which took part in the famous battle of Dubno-Lutsk-Brody. Without a doubt, M.E. Katukov did not shame the honor rendered to him, but, on the other hand, it is impossible to say that the division under his leadership had achieved some amazing successes. Then, after Mikhail Efimovich withdrew the remnants of his unit from the encirclement, he received under his command the 4 Tank Brigade, which, as you know, brilliantly showed itself in the battle of Moscow and became the first brigade to deserve the Guards title.

In other words, at the beginning of the war, the division for M.E. Katukov, perhaps, was still too big, but the team - just right, it was there that he was able to prove himself perfectly and hone his skills. Then, in 1942 g, he was appointed commander of the tank corps and valiantly (although not always successfully) fought. Well, later, having received such an excellent experience, he superbly commanded the 1 tank army, distinguished in the battles of the Kursk and Sandomir bridgehead, and became under the guidance of M.Ye. Katukov one of the symbols of victory over Hitler's fascism.

And finally, the last. As many history buffs pay attention, and professional historians, too, the order to form 120 separate brigades for 91 tanks in each required almost 11 000 tanks. This was more than enough to form the 29 tank divisions of the pre-war structure (375 tanks in the division), and if this was not done, it means there were some weighty and fundamental objections to such divisions.

The author of this article fully agrees that such objections were, some of the reasons for the formation of brigades are given by him above. But we must not forget the most important thing - the presence of a sufficient number of tanks to form three dozen tank divisions does not at all give us the opportunity to form them. Tanks - this is just one of the necessary conditions for their formation, but - not the only one.

For a tank division, you also need a lot of vehicles for the transport of infantry and field artillery and anti-tank guns, as well as this artillery itself and many supporting units. At the same time, the tank brigade, despite the formal presence of a motorized rifle battalion in it, by and large is still a purely tank unit, with a minimum amount of forces attached to it. It was planned that the tank brigade would not act independently, but in close cooperation with rifle or cavalry divisions, which had both infantry and field artillery, but where would the USSR take the same artillery to form 29 new tank divisions? Only the infantry, because of the free reserves of the Red Army, of course, was not. Thus, an attempt to create tank divisions in 1941 was possible only at the expense of weakening infantry divisions, and there was no place to weaken them. On the contrary, they needed reinforcement, which tank brigades could give them, but tank divisions were unlikely.

Thus, we are dealing with another important aspect - in 1941, the USSR, apparently, simply did not have the opportunity to equip tank divisions for the state they required, and the problem was not in the tanks, but in cars and so on.

By virtue of the above, a return to tank brigades, as to the main compound of tank forces for the USSR in 1941, was without alternative, and had many benefits. However, of course, tank brigades could not replace larger tank formations. For all its merits, the return to the individual brigades had one, but the most fundamental disadvantage. Tank troops, made up of tank brigades, could never achieve the killing efficiency of the German Panzerväfe. For the reason that, as an independent force, tank brigades could not compete with tank divisions due to the lack of field artillery in them and a sufficient number of motorized infantry. And to establish effective interaction between rifle or cavalry corps and tank brigades could not always. Whatever one may say, his rifle corps always remained “dearer” than the tank brigade attached to him for the commander, and the ability of the infantry commanders to use it correctly was not enough. But there was always the temptation to “plug the holes” with the bodies of tankers - they are “in the gland,” and the lump is less responsible for their losses than for their own ...

It turned out that in cases where between infantry and cavalry units and a tank brigade it was possible to ensure normal interaction, sometimes a completely phenomenal result was achieved. For example, joint actions of the previously mentioned 4 Tank Brigade ME. Katukov, the 316 th Infantry Division (Panfilov) and the cavalry group Dovator 16-20 on November in Volokolamsk direction delayed the onset of 46-th motorized and 5-th army German corps, which in aggregate consisted of 3 tank and 2 infantry units and XNUMX armored infantry units and XNUMX armies.



But in most cases, alas, it did not. Just to quote part of the order of the NKO USSR №057 from 22 January 1942, "On the combat use of tank units and formations", revealing the essence of the problems:

“The experience of the war showed that there are still a number of major shortcomings in the combat use of tank forces, as a result of which our units suffer heavy losses in tanks and personnel. Excessive, unjustifiable losses with a low combat effect in tank forces occur because:

1) The interaction of infantry with tank formations and units is still poorly organized in combat, infantry commanders set tasks not specifically and hastily, infantry lags behind in the attack and does not reinforce the lines captured by tanks, does not cover tanks standing in ambush, and even does not warn the commanders of tank units of a change in the situation and abandons tanks to the mercy of fate.

2) The attack of tanks is not supported by our artillery fire, tanks are not used for escorting tanks, as a result of which combat vehicles die from enemy anti-tank artillery fire.

3) Combined-arms commanders are extremely hasty in the use of tank formations - they are thrown straight into the battle, piecemeal, without wasting time, even for the production of enemy elementary reconnaissance and terrain.

4) Tank units are used by small subunits, and sometimes even one tank at a time, which leads to dispersal of forces, loss of communication between the assigned tanks and their brigade and the impossibility of providing them in combat, and the infantry commanders use these small groups tanks in frontal attacks, depriving them of maneuver, which increase the loss of combat vehicles and personnel.

5) Combined-arms commanders do not take good care of the technical condition of subordinate tank units — they make frequent transfers over long distances under their own power, withdraw from questions of evacuation of the emergency materiel from the battlefield, set combat missions without complying with the amount of time that tanks stay in combat without preventive repair , which in turn increases the already large losses in the tanks. "


As we can see from the above, tank brigades categorically lacked their own infantry and artillery, trained in interaction with tanks. In other words, despite all the validity of the return to tank brigades, they were not, and could not be, an equally perfect tool for maneuvering war, which were the German tank divisions. Alas, but we have to state that for our temporary inability to form full-fledged units for a tank war, the Red Army had to pay high losses in tanks and tank crews.

At the same time, as we said earlier, in 1941-42. the production was engaged in fine-tuning the T-34 to a normal technical and technological state, setting aside some fundamental upgrades for later. The leadership of the Red Army perfectly understood the shortcomings of the T-34, including the difficulty of controlling the tank, the lack of a commander's turret, and the insufficient crew size. But then the shaft was extremely important, because there was categorically not enough tanks, and in no case it was impossible to reduce the release of T-34s with their still counter-booking and a very serious 76,2-mm gun. From the above structures of tank brigades, it is clearly seen what a huge share was occupied by light tanks like the T-60, and it was they who, in the absence of T-34, had to solve all the tasks of the tank war.

Of course, with all its flaws, the T-34 and 1942 still had the advantage in defense and firepower over the main mass of Wehrmacht tanks. And these qualities of T-34 helped the Red Army to survive in that terrible period for us. But, of course, in its then technical condition and in the conditions of a forcedly non-optimal structure of the tank forces, our units and formations that fought on the T-34 could not match the effectiveness of the German Panzervaffe. They could not yet.

To be continued ...
349 comments
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  1. +10
    April 9 2019 05: 36
    Thanks, very interesting .
    1. -1
      April 9 2019 08: 39
      "disruption of the deployment of the German army" - the fascists have long been deployed - they fought full-scale since the fall of 1939. The plan for the war with Germany (for example, "Thunderstorm") envisaged an unexpected massive attack by mechanized corps in 1031 tanks, against an incompletely FOCUSED enemy.
      1. +5
        April 9 2019 08: 43
        ... the bulk of the most equipped and combat-ready mechanized corps ... was lost during the Border Battle ... There were a lot of reasons for that ...:
        1. The strategic initiative belonged to our enemy, while the USSR had no plans to repel such an invasion. The fact is that the war plan of the USSR envisaged the disruption of the deployment of the German army by forces deployed in border districts, but intelligence "overslept" and we had to repel the invasion of a fully mobilized and deployed enemy.
        2. ... an unsuccessful disposition of our troops.
        3. The worst training of the headquarters and personnel of the Red Army, lesser combat experience in comparison with the Wehrmacht, poor communication, ...
        - from article

        The article regarding the reconstruction of tank brigades is reasoned and accurate. No words, especially against the clumsy, uncontrollable 1000 - tank mechanized corps.
        But for the reasons for the defeat of mechanized corps, and indeed the defeat of the Army, it is not entirely accurate.
        For example, points 1 and 2: "... the plan of war of the USSR provided for the disruption of the deployment of the German army by forces stationed in the border districts, but the intelligence "slept through" and we had to repel the invasion of the fully mobilized ... "and "unfortunate disposition of our troops."
        What, dear author (without irony), is this a "plan" that "provided for the disruption of the deployment of the German army"? There was no such plan that actually meant hitting first. If you have an unsigned development by A. Vasilevsky dated May 15, 1941, then it has not been realized.
        There was a previously failed and implemented "Southern Option" - reworked "Considerations for the deployment of troops" Marshal ShaposhnikovTymoshenko-Meretskov and Zhukov on the counter strike of the attacking enemy, the main Red Army strike group from the Lviv ledge, against the secondary troops in the direction of Krakow, Lublin, and the secondary, also counter strike from the Belosok ledge, which led to the defeat of the Red Army in the border battle and in the future the entire 1941 campaign.
        On point 3: "The worst training of the headquarters and personnel of the Red Army, less combat experience in comparison with the Wehrmacht, weak communication ... ".
        This is so, but who prevented even the poorly trained staffs and personnel from organizing themselves to meet the enemy?
        Why the Odessa Military District, under the leadership of the chief of staff of Zakharov, managed to put the troops on alert before the outbreak of hostilities, and the leadership of the Baltic, Kiev, and especially the West, did not.
        Is it only the worst training of headquarters and weaknesses, inexperience of command? Are elements of conscious wrecking, and possibly betrayal of the highest general of the spacecraft, visible?
        After all, there was a direct surrender of 3 divisions located in Brest and a direct, openly open by anyone, opening the Brest direction for the Germans, the opening of the front by the national units of the Baltic republics in the Baltic VO - front, the surrender of a number of generals, for example, the head of the Operations Department, deputy. Chief of Staff of the Baltic Military District, Major General Trukhin with all the documentation, the future organizer of the Vlasov army, the incomprehensible actions of the command of the Western Front - Pavlov and Klimovskys, who were "saved" from the treacherous firing squad only by the reluctance of the state leadership to inflate the topic of distrust of the entire generals, etc.
        1. 0
          April 9 2019 09: 40
          The author has laid out everything correctly. Do not exaggerate the possible extent of betrayal. Rather, some Soviet commanders acted according to the situation, and after the first defeats went over to the side of the strong. The fact that Vasilevsky's plan was not implemented does not mean that there were no such thoughts, and the concentration of troops on the ledges is quite logical in the event of a German offensive in converging directions from Prussia and in the Kiev area. No one could have imagined that the Germans would strike in diverging directions, in addition, all 41 and part of 42 passed, one might say under the motto "intelligence about .... a", since the concentration of the center group was not revealed, respectively, such a powerful strike in the center was not expected. Why he failed in advance is not clear, on the contrary, he is logical and correct, if you act on the basis of the data that the command and the laws of military art had. As for the slow reaction to the General Staff's directive on bringing the troops to combat readiness in the western district, it was not sabotage that played an important role, but a banal mess and lack of discipline in the RKK. On the eve of the war, this was a big problem
          1. +5
            April 9 2019 10: 07
            It would never have occurred to anyone that the Germans would strike in diverging directions,
            - evgic (Eugene)

            But Marshal Shaposhnikov came, and he set out these thoughts in the only ones signed by the leadership of the USSR, including I.V. Stalin, Plan of the beginning of the war - "Considerations for the deployment of troops." Find them on the Internet and read them.
            Shaposhnikov’s plan provided for three directions for the Germans to strike: - the main one in Belarus, as well as in the Baltic states and Ukraine, in the direction of Kiev.
            The plan did not rule out a strike on Ukraine - the so-called "Southern option" of Shaposhnikov's "Considerations", but the main blow was still supposed to be higher than the Pripyat swamps, in the traditional direction for the invaders - through Belarus to Moscow - the "Northern Option".
            Unfortunately, after Shaposhnikov, Meretskov, who replaced him together with the People's Commissar Timoshenko, and then replaced Meretskov, Zhukov concentrated their actions on the secondary "Southern option" blow.
            It is difficult to say what the "brilliant" commanders of the Red Army were counting on when attacking the enemy mobilized and concentrating their troops and launching an offensive?
            Indeed, they probably knew that the spacecraft’s troops weren’t mobilized, the attack wasn’t prepared, and the intelligence didn’t identify the direction of the attack? For good luck? Probably.
            But only illiterate, unconscious adventurers, such as they were at the beginning of the war, could act this way, then, after the war, blamed Stalin for the loss of 1941.
            1. +6
              April 9 2019 10: 26
              Of course you would be in their place, since you showed Kleist and Guderian how to collect dates correctly. I don’t think Zhukov and Tymoshenko are dumber than you and I’m even sure that they are smarter. They simply acted according to the situation, based on the available data, and you are guided by the afterlife.
              1. +2
                April 9 2019 13: 07
                Of course you would be in their place, since you showed Kleist and Guderian how to collect dates correctly. I don’t think Zhukov and Tymoshenko are dumber than you and I’m even sure that they are smarter. They simply acted according to the situation, based on the available data, and you are guided by the afterlife.
                - evgic (Eugene)

                Don't take me in their place. In the study of history, incl. military, many professional historians, military men take part, and they have long ago put on the shelves the "deeds" of the Zhukov-Timoshenoks, many historical studies have been written on this topic. Just have time to read and study, if interested.
                Yes, and I.V. Stalin was not an amateur when he created a special department specially after the war, under the leadership of Colonel General Pokrovsky, to deal with the causes of the 1941 defeat - the famous 5 questions of General Pokrovsky to the generals and marshals who survived the war about the causes of the defeat.
                And he had claims to Marshal Zhukov, - back in 1941, he removed him from the leadership of the General Staff, as a non-recovering person, and even after the war, including during the 1941, he did not complain, sending him first to a secondary military district in Odessa, and then to more deaf Ural Military District.
                Yes, Stalin used Zhukov at first as a "crisis manager", with a tough disposition for executions and reprisals against subordinates in Leningrad, near Moscow, in the difficult year of 1941 to correct the situation created by Zhukov, and then only as a representative of the Supreme Command Headquarters, in as Stalin's personal controller - cruel and demanding. Yes, at the final stage of the war near Berlin, for political reasons, putting a Russian at the head of the front so that he would take Berlin, and not the Pole Rokossovsky K.K ..
                Well, Tymoshenko, after the failures of 1941 and Kharkov in 1942, did not show himself at all, leaving only the memory of defeat about himself in the war.
                1. +2
                  April 9 2019 14: 01
                  I think a certain amount of respect for the Zhukov-Timoshenkos would still be appropriate on your part, after all, people did everything they could in a very difficult situation, there were no others, and were able to overcome the crisis. Naturally, there are complaints about everyone, but once again I strongly recommend not to evaluate people from the point of view of afterthought. Only those who do nothing are not mistaken, and they had to do, despite the lack of intelligence, communications, reserves, ammunition, etc. When the German commanders found themselves in similar conditions, they also began to make mistakes, this is inevitable. And Tymoshenko was not removed at all, but behind Millerovo. The Kharkov catastrophe occurred, mainly due to another failure of intelligence, as I already wrote in the first post, all 41 and part of 42 passed, one might say under the motto "intelligence about .... a". The concentration of reserves by the Germans in the southern direction was not revealed, the headquarters believed that there would be an offensive on Moscow. Tymoshenko simply could not imagine the presence of such forces at his side, so he got a dagger under the rib.
                  Yes, at the final stage of the war near Berlin, for political reasons, he placed the Russian at the head of the front so that he would take Berlin, not Pole K. Rokossovsky.

                  This is generally who invented the bike is not clear. What did Stalin say so in the order or what? Or maybe someone read his thoughts after 80 years. And the Zhukov’s Berlin operation was brilliant, it’s a fact.
                  1. -3
                    April 9 2019 14: 34
                    I think a certain amount of respect for Zhukov-Tymoshenko would still be appropriate on your part, all the same people did everything they could in a very difficult situation, there were no others, and were able to overcome the crisis.
                    - evgic (Eugene)

                    Respect for WHAT? for the defeat of the Red Army in the Border Battle, and in general the pogrom of 1941, when the cadre Army practically disappeared, for the millions of those killed and taken prisoner to death? Because half of the European part of the country, and with it the civilian population, industrial stocks and production perished?
                    Zhukov-Tymoshenko corrected their miscalculations, destructive for the people and the country. Respect them for the fact that they did not fulfill their duty, it is impossible. Demand should be presented after the war, so that for others it was a lesson - you do not have sufficient knowledge and skills not to go into the supreme leadership.
                    1. 0
                      April 9 2019 14: 47
                      Yes, yes, I get it. You are a great commander, and personally in a dream you killed with a broom all the advancing Germans, the rest in fear stepped back and tremble with horror.
                      Do you know how an intelligent person differs from an intellectual? Clever reading the book draws conclusions and understands the essence of what is written, and the intellectual retells what he read without understanding the meaning. I hope I explain clearly.
                      1. +7
                        April 9 2019 14: 53
                        Accusations of excessive losses, generally speaking, are not uncommon in relation to military leaders of any level. However, recently G.K. Zhukov was under the gun of criticism, far from always constructive. This phenomenon has two causes, more precisely, a group of reasons. Firstly, there are a number of characters who cannot forgive Zhukov for the enormous contribution to the success of the Soviet Union in the Great Patriotic War. As a rule, these people are staunch anti-communists and flirt a little in this antipathy. The logic of this approach is reminiscent of the sacramental "do not get to anyone!" It's a shame, of course, when a beloved woman goes to another.
                        Secondly, a notable group of unconstructive critics G.K. Zhukov is made up of people for whom he is a symbol of a tough and uncompromising boss. This branch of Zhukov’s criticism is rooted in the army of the tactical level. The main thesis of this criticism is not declared explicitly, but can be clearly seen: high losses and failures in the battle are always the result of errors of the high command. In the distant future, such criticism aims at issuing indulgence to mid-level commanders. They almost never make mistakes, and their failures are the result of the wrong orders of "fools-bosses." Quite definitely, this thesis was formulated by the chief of intelligence of the 1 Guards who wrote the revealing and revealing memoirs. cavalry corps P.A. Belova Colonel A.K. Kononenko: "Eternal glory to the heroes who died due to the mistakes of their high leaders." Such logic is vicious in itself. As they often say, "victory has many fathers, defeat is always an orphan."
                      2. -2
                        April 9 2019 16: 25
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Firstly, there are a number of characters who cannot forgive Zhukov for the enormous contribution to the success of the Soviet Union in the Great Patriotic War.

                        Do you believe in fairy tales for nothing? bully That GKZH is directly responsible for the defeat of the Red Army in the initial period of the war as the beginning. GSH! Then he is responsible for the failure of counterattacks in Western Ukraine - just compare the number and quality of tanks with him and the Germans ... he has 5-fold superiority ... Then he ditched the reserves near Yelnya, the result was a defeat near Vyazma ... Near Leningrad he fought against non-existent German tanks, overslept the opportunity to lift the blockade ... etc. etc ... Strong-willed he was a man and merciless ... but illiterate ... request
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Such logic is vicious in itself.

                        Seriously? we look at the Mars operation, the forces and means that were concentrated, and the result ... It’s clear that the battalions are to blame ... request
                      3. +8
                        April 9 2019 17: 19
                        Quote: ser56
                        That GKZH is directly responsible for the defeat of the Red Army in the initial period of the war as the beginning. GSH!

                        The chief of staff cannot physically fight for the confrontations and armies.
                        Let me remind you that even on the 18.06.1941, it was the General Staff that sent directives to the Volga Military District, the Western Military District, the Volga Military District, and the Volga Military District Directorate of Directives on increased combat readiness and camouflage.
                        The history of the defeat of ZapVO aviation showed that the instructions were ignored, or not brought to l / s.
                        Quote: ser56
                        responsible for the failure of counterattacks in Western Ukraine - just compare the number and quality of tanks with him and the German ... he has 5 -fold superiority

                        With him - who does this? Who commanded the troops in Ukraine?
                        Quote: ser56
                        Then he ditched the reserves near Yelnya

                        Quote: ser56
                        Near Leningrad, he fought with non-existent German tanks, slept the opportunity to lift the blockade.

                        You, dear comrade, will not be difficult to talk about specific operations? Specific commanders, taking into account the specific operational situation at that time?
                        Or do you have a verbal flow ... the current has broken?
                        Quote: ser56
                        watch operation Mars

                        Remind the commanders of the Western and Kalinin fronts, who, by the way, prepared and started this operation. One of them, by the way, in April of the 45-th tried by any means to re-cut the line of demarcation of the 1-th Ukrainian and 1-th Belorussian fronts. and in his memoirs smashed nonsense ...
                        Quote: ser56
                        It is clear that the battalions are to blame ...

                        If the battalion commanders with regiments did not know how to organize a defense, then the General Staff and the entire military-political leadership of the USSR were essentially guilty during the war years.
                        Losing a major battle is the result of a chain of setbacks on the battlefield, and many misses by platoon, regiment and division commanders. Many positional "meat grinders" of the two world wars began with the failure of the tactical level commanders in the development of the breakthrough, when the enemy was still weak.
                      4. -3
                        April 9 2019 17: 28
                        here it’s not even necessary to start about directives 2-3 days before the start. they could not change anything
                      5. +7
                        April 9 2019 17: 31
                        Come on....
                        It was very real to disperse ZapVO aviation.
                      6. -4
                        April 9 2019 18: 34
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        It was very real to disperse ZapVO aviation.

                        and 2 TD at the border could not be removed by the directive of the General Staff of the Red Army in summer camps? feel
                      7. +6
                        April 9 2019 22: 53
                        Quote: ser56
                        and 2 TD at the border could not be removed by the directive of the General Staff of the Red Army in summer camps?

                        So read the interrogation protocols of the former commander of the Western Military District Pavlov. There are all the answers ....
                      8. -5
                        April 10 2019 11: 38
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        There are all the answers ....

                        the general was appointed responsible for the defeat ... if you do not understand this, then you are sorry ...
                        and the high command and those who appointed people who are not able to send this post are responsible for the discipline of the execution of orders ... hi
                      9. +9
                        April 10 2019 14: 26
                        Quote: ser56
                        general appointed responsible for the rout

                        Do not want to read? Yes, and why?
                        It's easier to look for the guilty ....
                        Saw ...
                      10. -9
                        April 10 2019 17: 11
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Do not want to read? Yes, and why?

                        yes I read ... and much more ... you you seem. consider every book a source of wisdom ... bully
                      11. -1
                        April 10 2019 09: 17
                        where to disperse? there were almost no alternate aerodromes; many aerodromes were under reconstruction. And let's say the plane flew into a clearing - what will it do there without maintenance? Read how much effort it took to equip a backup aerodrome even with a flight-ready field
                      12. -4
                        April 10 2019 11: 39
                        Quote: yehat
                        where to disperse? s

                        through the surrounding forests, but it’s better to dig up the caponiers and disguise ... make a false airfield nearby ... sort of corny ... bully
                      13. -2
                        April 10 2019 11: 50
                        read eyewitnesses - many airfields could not provide more than 1-2 sorties per day, even without relocation. And what would be with combat readiness with your version? it’s just that the planes there would be destroyed not with bombs, but with infantry grenades, because they couldn’t fly anywhere. Do not consider the commanders of the Red Army as morons - they had reasons to ignore the command, risking a career and dynamically relocating, because the materiel was stupidly not ready. What can I say that even masking paints could not find more than 10% of the required in half a year? Often there was one at the airdromes - the only one-and-a-half tanker, one fly (or even a cart with a horse)
                        communication was also scarce. What nafig relocation?
                        I repeat - large aerodromes are largely economically compelled. It would be better if the command thought before creating a network of aerodromes about providing the aerodromes with everything necessary (fuel, trained pilots, equipment for service staff, spare parts, communications, and much more), but not impracticable directives.
                      14. -2
                        April 10 2019 17: 14
                        Quote: yehat
                        even without relocation.

                        what are you answering? bully Does camouflage require paint? bully And the means at hand?
                        Quote: yehat
                        Often there was one at the airdromes - the only one-and-a-half tanker, one fly (or even a cart with a horse)

                        Well, who planned this? Build aircraft without a basing system? Someone from Mars? bully
                      15. 0
                        April 12 2019 09: 00
                        the army was actively forming units. fleet of cars was missing about 4 times.
                        this is one of the reasons why tank formations were left without motorized infantry
                        therefore, they were constantly and everywhere undervalued. the situation with cars has become relatively normal after thousands of deliveries on lend-lease
                      16. -2
                        April 12 2019 12: 30
                        Quote: yehat
                        there was an active formation of parts. fleet of cars was missing about 4 times.

                        I hope you realized the meaning of what you wrote? bully
                        Quote: ser56
                        Well, who planned this?
                        hi
                      17. +7
                        April 10 2019 14: 28
                        Quote: yehat
                        Read

                        What do you give all the advice?
                      18. -1
                        April 10 2019 14: 34
                        because the patriots who know nothing
                        I have already read hundreds of sources on military topics, visited several museums and studied a lot, but I still do not understand everything, but there are deer who will read Suvorov's "icebreaker" and believe that that's all there is to know.
                        So, for example, did you watch a German training film for snipers?
                        and I saw all their versions from the pre-war model up to 44 years old and can compare in detail with the training program of our modern snipers on SVD.
                        And I know a lot of such details, which sometimes fundamentally change the assessment of what was happening. For example, armor-piercing shells for the 45-k model of 37 and the end of 41 are two big differences.
                      19. -4
                        April 10 2019 17: 16
                        Quote: yehat
                        And I know a lot of such details, which sometimes fundamentally change the assessment of what was happening.

                        and from whom are these details? Who created this situation in the country?
                      20. +2
                        April 12 2019 09: 02
                        but verbiage like you.
                      21. -4
                        April 12 2019 12: 28
                        you are brave and hardworking ... bully
                      22. +1
                        April 10 2019 18: 51
                        where to disperse? there were almost no alternate aerodromes ...

                        This is a command problem. Probably they "thought", as always, to get the required numbers of aircraft on paper. Since the infantry in the huts is possible, then the planes will disappear somewhere))
                        The rearmament shelves could (should!) Be relocated at the old airfields abroad 38g for the duration of the retraining. Why keep near the new frontier incompetent regiments with two sets of aircraft, old ones accumulated on the edge of years. fields (already unattended) and new ones not yet flown / pilots not retrained? And on these "air exhibitions" the Luftwaffe was bombed to glory! Who is to blame for this? And so in almost everything.
                      23. 0
                        April 12 2019 09: 04
                        and here was another problem - the distance.
                        the network of old airfields was far removed from the new ones, but there were few intermediate ones and as a result depth separation was not possible.
                      24. -2
                        April 10 2019 18: 09
                        They began to prepare the army not 3 days before the start, much earlier. According to the directives of the General Staff, it should already be ready. But the directives are different - these are for excuses, for proceedings, read carefully, at least about aviation - the deadline is 1-15 JULY 1941. And Zhukov's words in "we did not expect that the Germans would attack us with all their might, in compact groups of armored and motorized forces in the main directions." What did you expect? Poland and France as an example. It was necessary to prepare since July 1940. In general, this topic is thoroughly analyzed on the branch The Unexpected War of Germany against the USSR.
                      25. +1
                        April 10 2019 18: 39
                        In the sense of attacking the Reich?
                      26. -3
                        April 9 2019 18: 31
                        "AchGenShtba physically cannot fight for the front and armies."
                        That's right - he is responsible for the timely preparation of plans, intelligence, etc. GKZH coped? bully
                        "Let me remind you that as early as 18.06.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX, it was the General Staff that sent out directives to PrivO, ZapVO, KOVO and ODVO instructions on increased combat readiness and camouflage."
                        funny that the General Staff of the Red Army demanded a banal - any charter requires camouflage bully
                        "The history of the defeat of the ZapVO aviation showed that the instructions were ignored, or not communicated to the l / s." but the leadership of the Red Army is responsible for monitoring the execution of orders! How were they going to fight with such discipline? request
                        "Who has this? Who commanded the troops in the Ukraine?"
                        good question - why then did the GKZh fight for the KOVO command? bully
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Or do you have a verbal flow ... the current has broken?

                        By no means, anyone who knows at least a little the history of the Second World War understands what I said ... hi
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Remind the commanders of the Western and Kalinin fronts who, by the way, prepared and started this operation

                        But do I say that they are better? But who coordinated? bully
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Bullshit in his memoirs ...

                        are you about gkzh I agree ... entertaining reading ... bully beg. General Staff of the Red Army does not know the capabilities of its military industry ... request
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        If the battalion commanders with regiments did not know how to organize a defense, then the General Staff and the entire military-political leadership of the USSR were essentially guilty during the war years.

                        Exactly! This is how it was built by the Red Army in the peaceful years of 21-41 ... 20 years ... I note that the backward tsarist regime was able to create such an officer and non-commissioned officer corps, which quite worthily waged a 1MB war request
                      27. +5
                        April 9 2019 23: 02
                        Quote: ser56
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Remind the commanders of the Western and Kalinin fronts who, by the way, prepared and started this operation

                        But do I say that they are better? But who coordinated?

                        Alexey RA already answered you that subordination and diligence in the Red Army in 41 is an optional phenomenon.
                        The NHS could not fight for the commanders of the army of the fronts - I already mentioned this.
                        AND..
                        It is precisely for Zhukov’s exactingness that G. K is retroactively accused of rigidity and cruelty.
                        Examples.
                        Kirponos on 26.06.41 fulfilled the order to advance the MK in his own way.
                        In November, 41 Rokossovsky left his position on the Istra Reservoir without an order.
                        In March, the tragedy of the 33 Army was again attributed to Zhukov.
                        Wasn’t it really that Georgy Konstantinovich had to sit on the front or army command post and constantly prompt?
                        Continue to continue?
                        Or do I have to paint the tragedy of "Mars" conducted by Konev and Purkaev?
                      28. -6
                        April 10 2019 11: 42
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        that subordination and diligence in the Red Army in the 41st is an optional phenomenon.

                        and who created such an army? I understand that the Red Army was created from gangs (Kotovsky, Makhno, Mishka Yaponchik, etc.), but it was 20 years old ... request
                      29. +3
                        April 15 2019 11: 29
                        Quote: ser56
                        I note that the backward tsarist regime was able to create such an officer and non-commissioned officer corps, which quite adequately waged a 1MB war

                        Somehow this statement, which has been repeated very often lately, does not correspond to historical facts. For with this "brilliant" officer corps in the 20th century, literally everything was lost, including the civil war. The entire officer corps does not become brilliant, simply well-trained, just if there are a few gifted, talented individuals in it, which, of course, were ... just like in the Great Patriotic War among Soviet officers and generals.
                      30. +3
                        April 9 2019 20: 06
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        If the battalion commanders with regiments did not know how to organize a defense, then the General Staff and the entire military-political leadership of the USSR were essentially guilty during the war years.


                        Zhukov and Meretskov are guilty of disrupting the power supply due to the constant reorganization. Pull troops and break already established structures and all at once (moreover, at least they would check the new structures). And then demand from the commanders of regiments and battalions a high level of combat readiness of units and subunits.

                        And in the memoirs they vilely blamed on Stalin. blame for the catastrophe of the outbreak of war.

                        I will say in Zhukov’s defense that the Germans were really not ready for war in 1941. And MK attacks were supposed to follow the example of Khalkhin-goal (a big provocation, a test of strength, to a shallow depth. And not for long).
                        And as a commander, Zhukov was quite capable (as a person, of course, not very).
                      31. +6
                        April 9 2019 23: 36
                        Quote: chenia
                        Zhukov and Meretskov are guilty of disrupting the power supply due to the constant reorganization.

                        Vanka-company - the chief responsible for b / p l / s in the unit entrusted to him.
                        As an example - the "paradox" of SVT-40, so not loved in the Red Army, and cherished and cherished in the Wehrmacht.
                        Quote: chenia
                        And then demand from the commanders of regiments and battalions a high level of combat readiness of units and subunits.

                        And this is not a task for the NHS. For this there are divisions, commanders.
                      32. 0
                        April 10 2019 09: 02
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Vanka-company - the chief responsible for b / p l / s in the unit entrusted to him.


                        Yes, you sho? And I do not know.
                        You look at the scale of the transformations, and Vanka Rotny will be constantly engaged in tracing in the park and pulling barbed wire in a figurative manner (household works include arranging parks, training fields, shooting ranges, tank dodges, classes). And this is with a constant change of duty (by the way, with an increase to the battalion commander, or other posts).
                        And where is the place of BP.
                      33. 0
                        April 10 2019 11: 45
                        Quote: chenia
                        Rolye company will be constantly engaged

                        you forgot about political work ... bully
                      34. +6
                        April 10 2019 14: 16
                        Quote: chenia
                        Yes, you sho? And I do not know.

                        Learn .... It's not too late ....
                      35. -2
                        April 10 2019 11: 45
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        And this is not a task for the NHS. For this there are divisions, commanders.

                        if the NHS is not able to understand the timing of the commissioning of the reformed compounds, to provide them with equipment, drugs, property, then it is clear - the division commanders and comcor ... bully
                      36. 0
                        April 15 2019 11: 34
                        Quote: ser56
                        if the NHS is not able to understand the timing of the commissioning of reformed compounds,

                        Despite the fact that we suffered terrible losses in that war, including due to errors of the high command, reading your comments, I can only say that, thank God, that you were not in the upper echelons of command then, and those like you there was obviously not so much. A riot of amateurs - there is no other name! lol
                      37. +6
                        April 10 2019 12: 44
                        "Strong-willed he was a man and merciless ..." ////
                        ----
                        I agree.
                        "Ruthlessness" - rudeness, his shouts at meetings, the scuffle of senior officers, and the firing squad, which he carried with him along the fronts - a cover for military illiteracy (professional incompetence).
                        Marshal Vasilevsky did not shout, he was always polite and managed to organize a professional General Staff. Which was not under Zhukov.
                      38. +10
                        April 10 2019 14: 20
                        Quote: voyaka uh
                        "Ruthlessness" - rudeness, his shouts at meetings, the scuffle of senior officers, and the firing squad, which he carried with him along the fronts - a cover for military illiteracy (professional incompetence).

                        Lesha ....
                        Come on, give the sources ... It seems to me that it was exactly Comrade Konev and Eremenko who were the very "military intellectuals" who spoke to their subordinates only in polite phrases ...
                        Quote: voyaka uh
                        Marshal Vasilevsky did not shout, he was always polite

                        For some reason, the intelligentsia among the military leaders is looking for reflections of their own ideas about the ideal person. The commander should be an expert in literature and art, have subtle facial features, preferably low vision. However, the army is a special caste of society, whose leaders differ significantly in personal qualities from the luminaries of science, education or masters of culture. They are not chess players or physicists from Nine Days of One Year. In addition to the ability to understand the operational environment, military leaders need to bring their decisions to numerous subordinates and seek their implementation. This means a certain rigidity, even cruelty, the ability to psychologically press on the interlocutor and even oratorical abilities. In this, commanders are akin to large entrepreneurs, politicians, or industry leaders.
                      39. +3
                        April 10 2019 14: 24
                        Any psychologist knows: if the boss screams, freaks out, is rude, this is a cover for his inability to make the right decision in a difficult situation.
                        It applies to business, and to the army, and to politics.
                      40. +3
                        April 10 2019 19: 09
                        Quote: voyaka uh
                        Any psychologist knows: if the boss screams, freaks out, is rude, this is a cover for his inability to make the right decision in a difficult situation.
                        It applies to business, and to the army, and to politics.

                        If a negligent subordinate, by virtue of his nearness, drove a soldier to machine guns without artillery preparation and artillery support in suppressing the revived machine gun and gun points, then there you can not only scream, but also attach to the wall ....
                        Or do you think that Moshe Dayan on the Sinai Peninsula in the 1967 to your tankmen read the Talmud in a whisper?
                        "Generals Never Run - in a peaceful life it causes laughter, but in a military one - panic."
                      41. -7
                        April 10 2019 17: 20
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        This means a certain rigidity, even cruelty, the ability to psychologically press on the interlocutor and even oratorical abilities. In this, commanders are akin to large entrepreneurs, politicians, or industry leaders.

                        can you imagine that General Brusilov hit with a stick one of his own Or nachdivy? Yes, even a colonel? Or covered with obscenities? bully
                      42. -4
                        April 9 2019 16: 26
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        these people are staunch anti-communists and flirt a little in this antipathy

                        GKZH rose in the Civil War, with the suppression of the Antonov uprising, he himself described it in a memoir ...
                      43. +5
                        April 9 2019 17: 21
                        Quote: ser56
                        GKZH rose in the Civil War, with the suppression of the Antonov uprising, he himself described it in a memoir ...

                        You have some kind of "huckster" verb - rose ... wassat
                        "Saw, Shura, saw ..."
                        good
                      44. -6
                        April 9 2019 17: 51
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Your verb is kind of "huckster" - has risen.

                        you know Russian badly - read some of the meanings - I recommend that you look at all the meanings of the word in literacy.ru ...
                        "10. Undertake smth., Go to some. Actions. P. to defend the Fatherland. // Rise, rebel. Mountain peoples rose up against tsarism. P. on cunning (colloquial; daring, deciding to start something 11. To appear, to arise. The question of paid education arose. A wind rose, a storm. A blizzard. Former thoughts, fears, apprehensions arose in the room. New elegant quarters rose. Within a month, a tent camp rose. 12. To become taller, to reach a certain height. The jet has risen by two meters. // Increase in height; increase in level. All bushes have risen, but the hazel has died. The temperature has risen. // Increase in volume, level, value, etc. p. The dough rose. The water level in the river rose. 13. To become more significant, to get a higher mark in smb. opinion... P. in general opinion. P. in smb. eyes. // " hi
                      45. +4
                        April 9 2019 17: 53
                        Quote: ser56
                        you know Russian badly - read some of the meanings - I recommend that you look at all the meanings of the word in literacy.ru ...

                        DO NOT teach me ..
                        Neither the Russian language ... nor the history of the Great Patriotic War ....
                      46. -4
                        April 9 2019 17: 59
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        DO NOT teach me ..

                        Yes, and I’m not trying bully you put forward the thesis about the "huckstering" of the verb - I showed you its meanings! so complaints about yourself ... hi
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        No history of the Great Patriotic War ....

                        then do not write comments, and even politicized ... request
                      47. +3
                        April 9 2019 18: 01
                        And you Hto such, to indicate to me - what should I write, and how?
                      48. -4
                        April 9 2019 18: 03
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        And you Hto such, to indicate to me - what should I write, and how?

                        fi, you not only poorly know the meaning of verbs in the Russian language, but also badly brought up ...
                      49. +3
                        April 9 2019 18: 04
                        "... Hamish, kid ..."
                      50. -6
                        April 10 2019 11: 52
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        ... Hamish, kid ... "

                        so Elochka, then there are no questions ... bully
                      51. +3
                        April 9 2019 15: 35
                        Do you know how an intelligent person differs from an intellectual? Clever reading the book draws conclusions and understands the essence of what is written, and the intellectual retells what he read without understanding the meaning. I hope I explain clearly.
                        - evgic (Eugene)

                        No, it's not clear. I became interested in the mystery of 1941 more than 40 years ago, back from the course "History of military art" at the military department of the institute.
                        Since then, I have re-read hundreds and a half, or maybe more historical books on this period, memoirs, memoirs, etc., looking for the cause of the 1941 defeat. In Soviet times, this was difficult, because no one wrote about it, and if they wrote it carefully masking what was written was censorship.
                        From the early to mid-90s, it broke through, starting with Rezun, who at least somehow tried to explain: "Why were our troops in such a deployment and not ready to repel the Germans?" After that, the works of other writers and researchers appeared, sometimes arguing, contradicting each other.
                        And from each book he collected, accumulated logical material explaining the defeat of 41 years.
                        So gradually the accumulated historical material began to transform into a qualitative understanding of "What really happened then?"
                        Of course, the reasons for the defeat of 1941 are not the only one, it is a combination of the reasons that led to the defeat of the Red Army. Much has been written about this, including at VO.
                        In the written comments, I do not tell the essence of what I read, I only present the conclusions made from what I read.
                        In this article, the author briefly touched on the Plan of War of the leadership of the spacecraft, as he understands it, and what seemed to me not true - the leadership did not have a Plan "to disrupt the deployment of German troops" and could not have, in fact, already deployed German troops by the beginning of the war.
                        So, to analyze and draw conclusions over the years I, unlike you, since you hit me, I know how.
                    2. -3
                      April 9 2019 14: 51
                      Quote: vladimirZ
                      Respect for WHAT? for the defeat of the Red Army in the Border Battle, and on the whole the pogrom of the 1941 of the year when the personnel army practically disappeared, for the millions of those killed and taken prisoner to death?

                      So. I’m not a fan of Zhukov, but such lines speak of something.
                      The hearing began. The first to report was Vice Admiral, Commander of the Baltic Fleet. He briskly read his proposals, which basically boiled down to the organization of a rifle corps landing force on one of the islands of the Baltic Sea, which was in the hands of the “enemy” by the “game”. Zhukov, who seemed absentmindedly listening to the naval commander’s report, suddenly started.

                      - Admiral! He exclaimed. “Do you realize what you're saying?” Do you have an idea about the modern rifle corps ?! Yes, you will not even place personnel on all ships of the fleet! And many tens of thousands of tons of military equipment - tanks, artillery, engineering equipment, ammunition? Are you going to load them on destroyers? Where are you going to get them?

                      Confused, like a schoolboy in front of a strict teacher, the admiral fell silent, fell in disbelief and returned to his place.

                      Excited about the unfortunate beginning of his predecessor, the next speaker, Lieutenant General, head of the Air Force Academy, read his note at a pace. In terms of the task, the "enemy" had a significant superiority in aviation, which the commander of "our" air army intended to eliminate by powerful bombing strikes at airfields, destroying aircraft directly on the ground. According to his calculations, it turned out that such strikes had to be destroyed before the 400 – 450 of the enemy’s aircraft and “our” air supremacy was achieved. The minister did not interrupt the aviation commander and seemed to even approve of his plan from the side. But when the general had already finished the report and, taking a sigh of relief, was about to sit down, the marshal threw a question:

                      - And what are the losses incurred by our aircraft?

                      After a long pause, the general said uncertainly:

                      - Up to 25 aircraft.

                      This answer infuriated Zhukov.

                      - How can you teach officers to defeat the enemy when you yourself have no idea about the modern air attack and its scale ?! Yes, you are in peaceful conditions, raising the army for training flights, will disable more aircraft at your airfields!

                      Received comments, though in calmer colors, and other experts.

                      Only the chief of intelligence of the front — the head of the department of one of the academies, Colonel A.G. Sinitsky did not receive any comments. Zhukov was stingy with praise and encouragement, and then there was such a beginning. But Sinitsky, a highly educated officer who knew the theater of operations and the "enemy" located on it, made a report in his own words, without resorting to reading from paper.

                      In conclusion, the front commander of the army general climbed the podium, slowly opening a red folder with a pre-printed decision to conduct an offensive operation and began a report. A major general stood at the operational map with a pointer to show the geographical points called by the speaker.

                      Zhukov stood up and remarked irritably:

                      “What the hell is a general with a pointer?” Do you have nothing to do? Give it to the speaker. And you, Comrade General of the Army, were commanding a real front during the war and you could not think on a cheat sheet.
                      1. +1
                        April 9 2019 16: 30
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        And you, Comrade General of the Army, were commanding a real front during the war and you could not think on a cheat sheet.

                        1) the usual bossy rudeness and tyranny ... it is important WHAT is written
                        2) forgot how he read the report written by Baghramyan ... bully
                      2. 0
                        April 9 2019 16: 36
                        Quote: ser56
                        ordinary bossy rudeness and tyranny ... it is important WHAT is written

                        Doesn’t it matter that the Major General with a pointer is standing? Yes, I also stood at school. What for?
                      3. -2
                        April 9 2019 18: 36
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        Doesn’t it matter that the Major General with a pointer is standing?

                        those. you decide for the army general - how to report? laughing A bunch of reasons are possible - the easiest - the level of secrecy of the meeting ... hi
                      4. -2
                        April 10 2019 00: 21
                        Quote: ser56
                        those. you decide for the army general - how to report?

                        And here I completely agree with Marshal Zhukov. wink
                    3. 0
                      April 9 2019 16: 28
                      Quote: vladimirZ
                      Respect for WHAT?

                      Excuse me, what are you worth? What battle did you win? And they deserve respect for the fact that you can live and spit on their shoes today. Gratitude is a well-educated trait, but this, obviously, is not about you.
                    4. BAI
                      -3
                      April 9 2019 20: 29
                      In their place, with their volume of information, could you command better?
                    5. -1
                      2 May 2019 08: 44
                      ... toilet commentator. Sitting alive on this throne, work for him ...
                2. +1
                  April 9 2019 14: 29
                  Quote: vladimirZ
                  And he had claims to Marshal Zhukov, - back in 1941, he removed him from the leadership of the General Staff, as a non-recovering person, and even after the war, including during the 1941, he did not complain, sending him first to a secondary military district in Odessa, and then to more deaf Ural Military District.
                  Yes, Stalin used Zhukov at first as a "crisis manager", with a tough disposition for executions and reprisals against subordinates in Leningrad, near Moscow, in the difficult year of 1941 to correct the situation created by Zhukov, and then only as a representative of the Supreme Command Headquarters, in as Stalin's personal controller - cruel and demanding. Yes, at the final stage of the war near Berlin, for political reasons, putting a Russian at the head of the front so that he would take Berlin, and not the Pole Rokossovsky K.K ..

                  "... And the province went to dance ...."
                  wassat
                  If you pretend to be documentary, give, if not examples, then links to documents and facts.
                  And if you are a fan of the "creativity" of Rezun, Beshanov, Safir and others like them - repent - like "I heard the ringing, but I don't know where he is" ...
                  1. +2
                    April 9 2019 14: 55
                    If you pretend to be documentary, give, if not examples, then links to documents and facts.
                    And if you are a fan of the "creativity" of Rezun, Beshanov, Safir and others like them
                    - stalkerwalker

                    I am not a fan of the "creativity" of Rezun, Beshanov, etc., although I have read many of them.
                    I prefer researchers A. Martirosyan, A. Isaev, Yu. Mukhin, Yu. Zhukov, O. Kozinkin and others who work with archives, historical documents.
                    So, if you need links to documents and facts, please contact these authors, there are all the details.
                    I am writing comments about the beginning of the war, with an already established view based on a lot of material read, and not an article where I should have given links to sources.
                    1. -3
                      April 9 2019 15: 01
                      Quote: vladimirZ
                      I am not a fan of the "creativity" of Rezun, Beshanov, etc., although I have read many of them.
                      I prefer researchers A. Martirosyan, A. Isaev, Yu. Mukhin, Yu. Zhukov, O. Kozinkin and others who work with archives, historical documents.

                      It was A. Isaev who published two books devoted to the activities of G.K. Zhukov, as one of the best commanders of the Great Patriotic War: "G. Zhukov. The King's Last Argument" from 2006 and "Myths and Truth about Marshal Zhukov" 2018 ...
                      I conclude - either you are shamelessly lying about your preferences, or at least you have problems with vision and conscience.
                      1. +1
                        April 9 2019 16: 13
                        It was A. Isaev who published two books on the activities of G.K.Zhukov, as one of the best commanders of the Great ...
                        I conclude - either you are shamelessly lying about your preferences, or at least you have problems with vision and conscience.
                        - stalkerwalker

                        I never completely agreed with any author who I would not read. Therefore, I do not see anything surprising in the discrepancy with the opinions of Isaev, Martirosyan, or the same Kozinkin that I read now.
                        According to Zhukov, an opinion developed a long time ago, that had been settled, even before Isaev’s reading, from various sources, including the memoirs of the Marshal read in the Soviet years, his weathervane position in relation to the Supreme Commander-in-Chief I.V. Stalin and the betrayed Zhukov, attributing to himself exorbitant merits in the Second World War and belittling the merits of other marshals and generals, his scuffle subordinates, including generals and marshals, his irrepressible greed for looting in defeated Germany, participation in the 1953 coup, etc.
                      2. +3
                        April 9 2019 16: 31
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        A. Isaev published two books on the activities of G.K.Zhukov, as one of the best commanders of the Great Patriotic War

                        He used to think differently, but was reforged ... bully
                3. +1
                  April 9 2019 15: 43
                  Quote: vladimirZ
                  And he had claims to Marshal Zhukov, - back in 1941, he removed him from the leadership of the General Staff, as a non-recovering person, and even after the war, including during the 1941, he did not complain, sending him first to a secondary military district in Odessa, and then to more deaf Ural Military District.

                  In defense of Zhukov - read about his activities to restore the combat readiness of the Red Army, starting in 1938. If not for Shaposhnikov and Zhukov, the level of headquarters planning and the preparation of the Red Army as a whole would be even lower than what it was in 1941. Khalkhin-Gol hid a lot of problems, and Zhukov was just one of those who treated all this in a hurry. A comparative analysis of the teachings of 1938, 1939 and 1940 showed steady progress in the skills of commanders of all levels and the rise of staff affairs.
                  1. +3
                    April 9 2019 16: 33
                    Quote: goose
                    If not for Shaposhnikov and Zhukov,

                    the cardinal and the haberdasherman is a great power ... bully Rokkosovsky wrote in the certification on his GKZh regiment that he did not know and did not digest staff work ... bully
                    1. -2
                      April 9 2019 16: 49
                      Quote: ser56
                      the cardinal and the haberdasherman are a great force ... Rokkosovsky wrote in the certification on his GKZh regiment that he did not know and did not digest staff work ..

                      In what year was the characterization written?
                      And you should not portray Rokossovsky as an undeservedly forgotten genius. Operation Bagration is, of course, a phenomenon. But Rokossovsky had both "sins" and "sins".
                      1. +4
                        April 9 2019 18: 42
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        In what year was the characterization written?

                        and that after that GKZH graduated from a military academy? bully Or worked hard on theory? in 1940, he could not write a report ... bully
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        And do not portray Rokossovsky as an undeservedly forgotten genius.

                        and where did they get this from? bully The commander wrote a subordinate certification ....
                      2. -1
                        April 9 2019 23: 45
                        Quote: ser56
                        and that after that GKZH graduated from a military academy?

                        Did it somehow affect his career as a commander?
                        The history of Zhukov’s appointment as commander of the 57 Special Corps is still full of white spots. The previous commander of the corps, N.V. Feklenko was withdrawn with the wording: "He poorly understands the nature of military operations in the specific conditions of a desert steppe area." Comdiv Zhukov at the time of sending to Mongolia served as deputy commander of the Belarusian military district for cavalry. He was appointed to this position in June 1938, and before that he commanded the cavalry division and the cavalry corps in the same Belarusian military district. To suggest that Georgy Konstantinovich gained invaluable experience of working in deserts and steppes during several years of service in Belarus would be insanity. Feklenko, who served in 1936 in Mongolia, knew the theater of operations much better. More suitable in comparison with the Zhukov candidate was, for example, who served in 1930 – 1933. in Turkestan cavalryman D.I. Ryabyshev. In the end, it was possible to return to the post of the first commander of the special corps in Mongolia - I.S. Konev. Since the days of the Civil War, he was familiar with the Far Eastern theater.
                        The genius of military affairs can be aggressive, very stubborn and devoid of classical education and upbringing. In the same way, it can be a former milkman (M.E. Katukov), a banker (who kept the bottleneck at Ladoga V. Wengler), or a dentist (tanker Franz Becke).
                        Quote: ser56
                        and where did they get this from?

                        Quote: ser56
                        Rokkosovsky wrote in the certification on his GKZh regiment that he did not know and did not digest staff work.
                      3. +2
                        April 10 2019 11: 59
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Did it somehow affect his career as a commander?

                        indeed, and why study - to finish school, study military affairs at the school, then graduate from the academy, the academy of the General Staff ..... bully Just a couple of classes, a Unter school and a couple of crash courses - and the commander is ready! Ideally sustained, awarded for the suppression of uprisings! Yours on the board ... hi
                        well, he doesn’t know what the military industry is, he doesn’t make plans — so there are no such fortresses that the Bolsheviks didn’t take ... and the men will die - so he poured their blood into the GV, which is the problem ... request
                      4. +2
                        April 10 2019 14: 14
                        Quote: ser56
                        and the men will die

                        Difficult sections of the front inevitably meant big losses, which they seek to project onto Zhukov, creating the image of a “butcher”. In fact, the appointment of Georgy Konstantinovich to difficult sectors of the front meant a reduction in losses due to his qualifications. The necessary figures are given in his book “Commanders of Victory,” Army General M.A. Gareev: “So, for example, they said that during the counteroffensive near Moscow the Western Front suffered more losses than Kalininsky (ZF - 100 thousand and KF - 27 thousand). But at the same time they were silent that the Western Front had more than 700 thousand troops, and Kalininsky - 190 thousand. If we take the losses as a percentage of the total number of troops (which is more correct), the picture is completely different. The irreparable loss of the Western Front under the command of G.K. Zhukov made up 13,5 percent of the total number of troops, and Kalininsky 14,2 percent. In the Rzhev-Vyazemsky operation, Zhukov had 20,9, and Konev had 35,6 percent; in the Vistula-Oder - the 1-th Belorussian Front 1,7, and the 1-th Ukrainian - 2,4 percent; in the Berlin operation, where the largest and most powerful enemy group opposed the 1 Belorussian Front, the losses of the 1 Belorussian Front — 4,1, and the 1th Ukrainian Front — 5 percent. The losses of the 2th Ukrainian Front (R.Ya. Malinovsky) in the Budapest operation are 1,5 – 2 times greater than in the Berlin operation G.K. Zhukov. And so in all operations ”
                      5. -4
                        April 10 2019 17: 25
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Army General M.A. Gareev

                        not even funny ... Agitprop ...
                      6. 0
                        April 10 2019 12: 08
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        The genius of military affairs can be aggressive, very stubborn and devoid of classical education and upbringing.

                        Hmm, where there all sorts of Guderians / Shaposhnikovym / Manstein / Brusilovym ... bully
                        Therefore, it was necessary GKZH 30MK with 32 000 tanks against 4000 at the Wehrmacht ... from genius ... bully
                        stalkerwalker enlighten ...
                        "Certification ... of the brigade commander of the 7th Samara Kazdivision ... Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov.

                        Strong will. Resolute. He has a rich initiative and boldly applies it in practice. Disciplined. Demanding and persistent in his demands. By nature, a little dry and not sensitive enough. Has a significant degree of stubbornness. Painfully proud. Militarily well prepared. Has extensive practical team experience. He loves military affairs and is constantly improving. The presence of the ability for further growth is noticeable. Authoritative. During the summer period, by skillful leadership of the brigade's combat training, he achieved major achievements in the field of combat and tactical-shooting affairs, as well as the growth of the brigade as a whole, in relation to tactical and combatant. He is interested in mobilization work and knows it. Pays due attention to the issues of saving weapons and horse personnel, having achieved positive results. Well prepared politically. The position held is quite consistent. It can be used profitably for the post of a pomkomdiv or a commander of a mechanized division, subject to admission through the appropriate courses. She cannot be assigned to staff and teaching work - he organically hates her. November 8, 1930 Divisional commander: Rokossovsky "."
                      7. +2
                        April 10 2019 14: 13
                        Quote: ser56
                        Therefore, it was necessary GKZH 30MK with 32 000 tanks against 4000 at the Wehrmacht ... from genius ...

                        Cho did not mention about airplanes? Forgotten?
                        Quote: ser56
                        "Certification ... of the brigade commander of the 7th Samara Kazdivision ... Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov.

                        Quote: ser56
                        8 November 1930. Divisional commander: Rokossovsky "."

                        From the brigade commander in PrivO to the divisional commander in BelVO, where Zhukov was not relieved of the post of deputy commander of the Belarussian district for cavalry.
                        Feel how it is basking, the difference ...
                        And it would be nice to recall from those commanders who flew from the ranks of the Red Army in the period from 1930 to 1939 due to drunkenness, moral decay, and even banal cooperation with intelligence agencies of other states.
                        And do not blame someone that a former subordinate during the years of World War II commanded his former boss. Rokossovsky’s puncture in November of the 41 with the unauthorized abandonment of positions on the Istra Reservoir was expensive for Moscow’s defense. And, by the way, Zhukov G.K. in his memoirs he did not speak badly of any of the commanders, although he could afford it. What can not be said about the latter ...
                      8. -4
                        April 10 2019 17: 27
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        And don't blame anyone

                        for you in 1930 Rokossovsky knew what would happen in 1941? bully
                  2. -2
                    April 9 2019 18: 15
                    At the same time, in something, and in operational planning, even at the beginning of the war, the Red Army was not much inferior to the Wehrmacht. This is despite the serious losses in the command staff in the second half of the 1930s. And Zhukov's merit in this is considerable. And to ascribe to him "greed for trophies" and "belittling other marshals" (as well as calling him "a bloody executioner who does not take into account the lives of soldiers" - just on the other side of the discus) - well, sorry, you can be a cruel person, greedy for trophies and glory as a proud man - but at the same time being a talented commander, loyal to his country and people - one does not exclude the other at all.
                4. -2
                  April 9 2019 18: 10
                  They themselves described everything - just as the head of military operations Zhukov was one of the best strategists of the Second World War, and the post of chief of the general staff is still a little different.
            2. +4
              April 9 2019 13: 50
              Quote: vladimirZ
              It is difficult to say what the "brilliant" commanders of the Red Army were counting on when attacking the enemy mobilized and concentrating their troops and launching an offensive?
              Indeed, they probably knew that the spacecraft’s troops weren’t mobilized, the attack wasn’t prepared, and the intelligence didn’t identify the direction of the attack?

              And who told you that intelligence has not identified the direction of the offensive? Intelligence regularly regularly reported on German tank wedges. It’s another matter that she saw them not where they were in real life - and it cost a ZOV defeated by 6 MK, and a KOVO - failure of a mechanized corps counterattack under the base of a wedge of 1 TGy.
              But the commanders of the Red Army had no other choice. To sit in a blank defense meant getting into a cauldron. Active defense was impossible: the mobility of the German infantry was, as it were, no higher than that of our motorized units - so we simply did not have time to quickly respond to German attacks. It only remained to not run after the enemy, but to beat him where we can do it ourselves.
              In addition, the same blow of the KOVO mechanized corps was quite successful in design. And if the command of the South-West Division would not cancel the order of the National High Command (subordination and discipline - no, this is not about the Red Army) and would not start leapfrogging and reassignment of the mechanized corps ... if they simply obeyed the order, then 1 TGr would have big problems.
              1. +1
                April 9 2019 13: 57
                Quote: Alexey RA
                In addition, the same blow of the KOVO mechanized corps was quite successful in its design. And if the command of the USP would not cancel the order of the NGS (subordination and discipline - no, this is not about the Red Army)

                And nothing to add.
              2. +1
                April 9 2019 14: 23
                And who told you that intelligence has not identified the direction of the offensive? Intelligence regularly regularly reported on German tank wedges. Another thing is that she saw them not where they were in real life ...
                ... But the commanders of the Red Army had no other choice. To sit in a blank defense meant getting into a cauldron. Active defense was impossible ...
                - Alexey RA (Alexey)

                Well, you give. Themselves contradict yourself - "Intelligence just regularly reported about German tank wedges. Another thing is that she saw them not where they were in real life ...".
                This means that intelligence did not own the situation - where is the enemy. Yes, and how could she know where the enemy would be if he had not yet begun hostilities, and the troops had already been given directions for action?

                Well, about the commanders who "had no choice" - a masterpiece - to give up troops that were not mobilized and not put on alert - a choice ?!
                Look again the Plan - "Considerations" of Marshal Shaposhnikov, it is there that it is said about the need to LEAD ACTIVE DEFENSE to contain the enemy, and the appropriate deployment of troops for this.

                The actions of the mechanized corps are utter nonsense. First, it was necessary for the reconnaissance to identify the main lines of action of the German tank wedges, and only then develop orders for their actions. Zhukov, sent to the KOVO, only aggravated the situation with his demand for a counter strike against the advancing Germans.
                1. +1
                  April 9 2019 15: 19
                  Quote: vladimirZ
                  At first it was necessary to reconnoiter the main directions of actions of the tank wedges of the Germans, and only after that to develop orders for their actions. Zhukov, who was sent to KOVO, only aggravated the situation with his demand for a counter-strike against the advancing Germans.

                  Yes, the Lord is with you. Zhukov, on the basis of scattered data, correctly determined the direction of the German strike, and his counterattacks were sent exactly where they should have been, that is, at the rear of the 1-oh tgr. What kind of counter blow is there when classic ticks were supposed to be there with a cut-off of a group bursting inland?
                  1. +1
                    April 9 2019 17: 09
                    Yes, the Lord is with you. According to scattered data, Zhukov correctly determined the direction of the German strike and his counterattacks were directed exactly to where it should have been, that is, to the rear of the 1st TSR. What a counter strike ...
                    - Andrey from Chelyabinsk (Andrey)


                    The decision to counter attack the German forces of Army Group South was taken at the headquarters of the South-Western Front on June 22, around midnight. In fact, the entire leadership of the front — Kirponos, Purkaev, and Baghramyan — considered this counter strike premature and dangerous. But Army General Zhukov, who arrived on the South-Western Front on Stalin’s personal order, demanded the implementation of the Directive of the NKO No. 3 from 22 June 1941 of the year.

                    DIRECTIVE OF THE PEOPLE'S DEFENSE COMMISSIONER OF THE USSR No. 3
                    22 June 1941 year

                    1. The enemy, striking from the Suvalkin ledge on Olita and from the Zamost region on the front, Vladimir-Volynsky, Radzekhov, auxiliary strikes in the directions of Tilsit, Šiauliai and Siedlec, Volkovysk, suffered heavy losses during 22.6, achieved little success in these directions. On the remaining sections of the state border with Germany and on the entire state border with Romania, the enemy’s attacks were repulsed with heavy losses.
                    2. The immediate task at 23-24.6 I put:
                    a) concentrate with concentrated concentric strikes of the troops of the North-Western and Western Fronts to encircle and destroy the enemy Suwalki group and, by the end of 24.6, take control of the Suwalki area;
                    b) with powerful concentric strikes of mechanized corps, with all the aircraft of the Southwestern Front and other troops 5 and 6A, surround and destroy the enemy group advancing in the direction of Vladimir-Volynsky, Brody. By the end of 24.6, take control of the Lublin area.
                    3. I ORDER:
                    ...
                    c) the armies of the Western Front, holding back the enemy in the Warsaw direction, inflict a powerful counterattack by forces of at least two mechanized corps and aircraft on the flank and rear of the Suvalkin enemy group, destroy it together with the North-Western Front and take control of the Suwalki area by the end of 24.6. The border on the left is the same.
                    d) The armies of the Southwestern Front, firmly holding the border with Hungary, concentric blows in the general direction to Lublin with forces of 5 and 6A, at least five mechanized corps and all the aviation of the front, encircle and destroy the enemy group advancing on the front Vladimir-Volynsky, Krystynopol, to the end 26.6 take possession of the Lublin area. Securely provide yourself with the Krakow direction.
                    ...
                    People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR
                    Marshal of the Soviet Union S. Timoshenko
                    Member of the Main Military Council
                    Malenkov
                    Head of the General Staff of the Red Army
                    Army General Zhukov
                    1. 0
                      April 9 2019 18: 51
                      Oh, Mayn Gott! :))))))
                      Quote: vladimirZ
                      The decision to counter attack the German forces of Army Group South was taken at the headquarters of the South-Western Front on June 22, around midnight. In fact, the entire leadership of the front — Kirponos, Purkaev, and Baghramyan — considered this counter strike premature and dangerous. But Army General Zhukov, who arrived on the South-Western Front on Stalin’s personal order, demanded the implementation of the Directive of the NKO No. 3 from 22 June 1941 of the year.

                      Let's start with the fact that the information you provide is false. Then just quote Isayev, it's easier
                      Late in the evening of June 22, when Zhukov arrived at the headquarters of the Southwestern Front, no one literally was going to follow Directive No. 3. Updated data on the advancement of the Germans were received, and the mid-day opponent’s estimate of 22 June was deemed hopelessly outdated. Therefore, a rational grain was taken from the directive - concentrating against the deeply advanced enemy of aviation and the five mechanized corps of the South-Western Front ... ... After clarifying the data on the enemy's advancement, the direction of the counterstrike logically shifted to its own territory. The plan became 100% politically correct, no Lublin.

                      That is, Zhukov’s counterstrike had nothing to do with the directive you quoted.
                      1. 0
                        April 9 2019 18: 58
                        Let's start with the fact that the information you provide is false.
                        - Andrey from Chelyabinsk (Andrey)

                        Well, you give Andrew? Directive No. 3 of NNOs of 22 June 1941 of the year is false, and probably no one from the troops carried out it ?!
                        And the advance of troops, including mechanized corps "back and forth," as a result of which their combat effectiveness fell, the disorganization of the troops of the South-West Front, to what can you write off?
                      2. +1
                        April 10 2019 10: 34
                        Quote: vladimirZ
                        And the advance of troops, including mechanized corps "back and forth," as a result of which their combat effectiveness fell, the disorganization of the troops of the South-West Front, to what can you write off?

                        On the initiative of the front command, which canceled the execution of the order of the NHS and began to implement its plan, transferring and reassigning the mechanized corps. ICH, as a result, I still had to return to Zhukov's plan - but time was lost.

                        You see what’s the matter ... for some reason, the vast majority imagine the Red Army of the early 40s as a monolithic structure in which any order will be executed immediately and accurately. In fact, the main problem of the Red Army was the weak discipline of the execution of orders, multiplied by the low level of training of performers. As a result, the order was either not executed at all, or its execution took on absolutely fantastic forms.
                        You don't have to go far for examples - the same Zhukov spent two weeks scratching out 1 TD from Karelia, trying to return it to 1 MK. Result? The first orders were ignored, and only when it came to possible organizational conclusions, the commander gave up a tank division, having previously withdrawn equipment from it for two tank battalions. Or you can recall the battles near Moscow, when the order "do not attack settlements in the forehead"was executed as"frontal attacks consistently knock the enemy out of all fortified villages in the offensive zone".
                      3. 0
                        April 10 2019 17: 31
                        Quote: vladimirZ
                        Well, you give Andrew? Directive No. 3 of NNOs of 22 June 1941 of the year is false, and probably no one from the troops carried out it ?!

                        the directive text is correct, the comment to it is false. Zhukov DIDN'T INSTALL on her performance due to the changed circumstances, his counterstrike was adapted to the prevailing reality and had almost nothing in common with the directive
                      4. 0
                        April 10 2019 20: 46
                        the directive text is correct, the comment to it is false. Zhukov DIDN'T INSTALL on her performance due to the changed circumstances, his counterstrike was adapted to the prevailing reality and had almost nothing in common with the directive
                        - Andrey from Chelyabinsk (Andrey)

                        Andrey, how do you know that "Zhukov DIDN'T INSIST on her performance due to changed circumstances"?
                        Give your evidence.
                        He arrived to implement the Directive of the NPO No. 3 of 22.06.41, which he himself drew up and approved by I.V. Stalin. Knowing Zhukov’s temper and perseverance, he could be convinced only by the failure of this counterattack, and nothing else.
                        Here is a quote from Volume 2 of the 12th volume of The Great Patriotic War, 2011 edition, p. 759:
                        According to Directive No. 3, issued in the evening of June 22, front troops were to defeat the Lublin enemy grouping and capture Lublin on June 24. Although the directive considered the directive impossible to fulfill at the front headquarters, it was decided on June 23 to launch a counterattack on General Kleist’s 1st tank group that had broken through using six mechanized corps, numbering 3,7 thousand tanks.
                        The blow was supposed to be applied from two sides in convergent directions. To coordinate the actions of the Soviet troops and the formulation of specific tasks to formations, the head of the General Staff of the Red Army, Army General G.K. Zhukov, was sent to the formations on the South-Western Front. His orders to the front and army command regarding the quickest organization of counterattack of mechanized formations were quite strict.
                        ...
                        The headquarters and Stalin personally closely monitored the preparation of the counterattack on the Southwestern Front. The forces of the Soviet formations seemed to be enough to inflict a decisive defeat on the enemy. To eliminate the threat, first of all, from the 1st Kleist tank group, the front command, in agreement with the Headquarters, decided to strike in convergent directions by forces of the 9th and 19th mechanized corps - from the north and the 8th and 15th mechanized corps - from South. But the Soviet command failed to bring into the battle simultaneously all the forces allocated for the counterattack, since .....

                        By the end of June 24, Moscow believed that Zhukov should think about withdrawing Soviet units from the Peremyshl region to the Rudnya-Borislavl line so that they would not break away from the main group of forces in the Lvov area, and about evacuating valuable equipment from Lviv.
                        Zhukov agreed with this withdrawal, but all his attention, as well as the attention of the Headquarters, was riveted to the organization of the counterattack north of Brody. ...
                        ... The hopes of the command of the South-Western Front for the advance of the 8th and 15th mechanized corps from the Lviv ledge did not materialize. Large losses when moving to the original areas and unsystematic attacks led to an inevitable defeat and
                        quick departure.

                        It was only after this, which led to the withdrawal of the spacecraft’s troops, that the actions of the leadership of the South-West Front on the current situation began, ignoring Directive No. 3.
                2. +1
                  April 9 2019 17: 03
                  Quote: vladimirZ
                  Well, you give. Themselves contradict yourself - "Intelligence just regularly reported about German tank wedges. Another thing is that she saw them not where they were in real life ...".
                  This means that intelligence did not own the situation - where is the enemy.

                  You see, what is the matter ... if intelligence were silent and shrugged off the question "where are the German tanks" - then yes, the decisions of the leadership of the Red Army to counterstrike would be unfounded. But that's just the point. that intelligence was not silent, but regularly reported on the discovered German tanks. And on the basis of these reports, plans were drawn up for counterattacks - true, based on available information. Another thing is that this information is very rarely true.
                  Quote: vladimirZ
                  Well, about the commanders who "had no choice" - a masterpiece - to give up troops that were not mobilized and not put on alert - a choice ?!

                  But there are no other options. Active defense with non-mobilized units is impossible in principle - how to actively defend, having the same traction in the artillery regiment for the division and being unable even to maneuver artillery or to transport ammunition? I’m not talking about communication.
                  Quote: vladimirZ
                  At first it was necessary to reconnoiter the main directions of actions of the tank wedges of the Germans, and only after that to develop orders for their actions. Zhukov, who was sent to KOVO, only aggravated the situation with his demand for a counter-strike against the advancing Germans.

                  A counter strike and a strike against entrenched infantry is not Zhukov. This is Kirponos. The strike on Zhukov’s plan fell on the flanks, in the gap between tanks and infantry — exactly 1 TGr on the rear. And Kirponos lost time and waited for the approach of the German infantry.
                  1. 0
                    April 9 2019 17: 22
                    A counter strike and a strike against entrenched infantry is not Zhukov. This is Kirponos. The attack on Zhukov’s plan fell on the flanks, in the gap between tanks and infantry - exactly 1 TGr in the rear ...
                    - Alexey RA (Alexey)

                    Above, I cited an extract from the NGO Directive No. 3 of June 22, 1941, concerning the South-Western Front, signed by Tymoshenko and Zhukov, and which Zhukov arrived on June 22, 1941 to fulfill at the South-West Front. Read - this is a document! And you have only words.
                    1. -1
                      April 9 2019 17: 28
                      Quote: vladimirZ
                      Above, I cited an extract from the NGO Directive No. 3 of 22 on June 1941 of the year concerning the South-Western Front, signed by Tymoshenko and Zhukov. Read, this is a document!

                      It is not necessary to apply the methods of card cheaters ....
                      Directive No. 3 was based on data from the evening of 22.06.41, and the events in question occurred on 25-26.06.41, when G.K.Zhukov was urgently recalled to Moscow.
                      The further fate of the battle in the Dubno-Kovel-Rivne region took place not only without the participation of the NHS, but even without its control.
                      1. 0
                        April 9 2019 17: 36
                        It is not necessary to apply the methods of card cheaters ....
                        Directive No. 3 was based on data from the evening of 22.06.41, and the events in question occurred on 25-26.06.41, when G.K.Zhukov was urgently recalled to Moscow.
                        - stalkerwalker


                        We comment on the war plans and events of June 22-23, 1941, the actions of the leadership of the NPO and the General Staff, which led to the catastrophe of the outbreak of war.
                        Zhukov arrived 22 June on the SW front for the implementation of Directive No. 3, which he himself signed and demanded from the command and troops to implement it.
                        And what happened afterwards was a consequence of the improper planning of the beginning of the war by the General Staff, the deployment of troops in accordance with this Plan, the adventurous requirements of its execution, no matter what, etc.
                      2. 0
                        April 9 2019 17: 46
                        Blah blah blah....
                        Having said "A", publish further directives and instructions of the NSH during 23-26.06.41.
                        It was Kirponos who imagined himself a strategist, and did not fulfill what Zhukov had strictly told him before leaving for Moscow.
                      3. 0
                        April 9 2019 18: 06
                        Blah blah blah....
                        Having said "A", publish further directives and instructions of the NSH during 23-26.06.41.
                        - stalkerwalker

                        I ran to publish "further directives and instructions of the NSH during 23-26.06.41.", Especially for you. with this attitude "Blah blah blah ....".
                        Search and analyze for yourself - let them find the truth, if you can.
                      4. -2
                        April 9 2019 18: 08
                        Yes, at least write ....
                        The result is one - ignorance of the history of the Great Patriotic War.
                        One golem gonyalovo ...
                      5. +1
                        April 9 2019 18: 39
                        Yes, at least write ....
                        The result is one - ignorance of the history of the Great Patriotic War.
                        One golem gonyalovo ...
                        - stalkerwalker

                        Ha ha ha. You have a knowledge of "the history of the Great Patriotic War" and your culture just shines. Even the essence of the famous Directive No. 3 NPOs do not know, and also go with strangers to "you", which is not in your favor. So that "gonyalovo" looks like you.
                        I stop communicating with you due to hanging tags and lack of interest in your opinion.
                      6. 0
                        April 10 2019 00: 11
                        Quote: vladimirZ
                        I stop communicating with you because of hanging labels

                        What ....
                        The cry of the soul of the couch general, cribbing on someone else's crib.
                        Backfill question "How was it necessary?"
                        It’s better to be known as rude than blunt and wretched ...
                      7. -1
                        April 9 2019 18: 52
                        Quote: vladimirZ
                        Zhukov arrived 22 June on the SW front for the implementation of Directive No. 3, which he himself signed and demanded from the command and troops to implement it.

                        NOT required. When he arrived, he was in charge of the situation, ignoring his own directives, because they no longer met the needs of the moment
                      8. +2
                        April 9 2019 19: 16
                        NOT required. When he arrived, he was in charge of the situation, ignoring his own directives, because they no longer met the needs of the moment
                        - Andrey from Chelyabinsk (Andrey)

                        Zhukov gave Directive No. 3 at the end of the day on June 22, immediately leaving for the South-West Front to implement it. When at midnight from June 22 to 23 it was necessary to understand the situation prevailing during the day, which the front command itself did not fully understand?
                        He arrived with strict instructions to carry it out, all his six-month work as chief of the General Staff was aimed at this, and suddenly the fuck and Zhukov abandoned his plan, which he always put above the opinions of others. Do you believe that? I do not, he strictly demanded that this Directive be implemented.
                        Yes, this is not even the case, the troops complied with Directive No. 3 or did not. The fact is that the counter-strike planned from the Lviv ledge towards Lublin, which is planned before the war by Tymoshenko-Zhukov, as confirmed by Directive No. 3, and accordingly from the Bialystok ledge, the deployment of troops under this Plan, in effect, doomed the Red Army troops to defeat. This is the trouble!
              3. +3
                April 9 2019 14: 37
                Quote: Alexey RA
                But the commanders of the Red Army had no other choice. To sit in a blank defense meant getting into a cauldron. Active defense was impossible: the mobility of the German infantry was, as it were, no higher than that of our motorized units - so we simply did not have time to quickly respond to German attacks. It only remained to not run after the enemy, but to beat him where we can do it ourselves.

                An indirect confirmation can be considered the Vyazemsky cauldron, as a result of "strategic defense". Spraying tanks into brigades, refusing to counter-offensive actions even with small tank subunits (the Petrovsky corps had no armored vehicles in the Battle of Smolensk at all), and eventually led to a resounding success in the initial phase of Operation Typhoon.
                1. +1
                  April 9 2019 16: 36
                  Quote: stalkerwalker
                  refusal of counter-offensive actions

                  were there any reserves? Or were they spent on the offensive to solve a particular problem? And the enemy hit from completely different places ... bully
                  1. 0
                    April 9 2019 16: 57
                    Quote: ser56
                    were there any reserves?

                    Even the encirclement of almost 500 thousand groups in the Vyazma area did not leave the Red Army without reserves, which then closed holes in the Moscow direction.
                    By the way ... Do not remind me - who commanded the Western and Reserve Fronts in October 1941 of the year? And who cleared the tails of this commander?
                    Quote: ser56
                    And the enemy hit from completely different places ...

                    This always happens when you follow the precepts "to bury yourself in the ground, to poke minefields", etc.
                    The one who takes the initiative wins.
                    1. 0
                      April 9 2019 18: 43
                      Quote: stalkerwalker
                      The one who takes the initiative wins.

                      and who has reserves to fend off accidents ... bully
                      1. +2
                        April 9 2019 23: 54
                        Quote: ser56
                        and who has reserves to fend off accidents ..

                        Reserves do not appear "out of the ground" or out of nowhere. This is the purposeful and systematic work of that General Staff.
                        The Wehrmacht defeated the army of France (including the expeditionary Corus of the British) without any superiority in either people or technology.
                        The French began mobilization in August 1939. And in June 1940 was surrendered, having about 2 million uninvited reservists.
                        At the same time, NOBODY does not bow in every way to either the French army or its General Staff.
                      2. 0
                        April 10 2019 12: 12
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        This is the purposeful and planned work of that General Staff.

                        at this time, the General Staff of the Red Army was commanded by a prominent specialist - BMS
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        At the same time, NOBODY does not bow in every way to either the French army or its General Staff.

                        funny argument ... how many were the French destroyed? and how many Soviet citizens? Is it worth comparing their western showdown with the war of annihilation?
              4. -1
                April 9 2019 18: 15
                Quote: Alexey RA
                And who told you that intelligence has not identified the direction of the offensive? Intelligence regularly regularly reported on German tank wedges. It’s another matter that she saw them not where they were in real life - and it cost a ZOV defeated by 6 MK, and a KOVO - failure of a mechanized corps counterattack under the base of a wedge of 1 TGy.
                But the commanders of the Red Army had no other choice. To sit in a blank defense meant getting into a cauldron. Active defense was impossible: the mobility of the German infantry was, as it were, no higher than that of our motorized units - so we simply did not have time to quickly respond to German attacks. It only remained to not run after the enemy, but to beat him where we can do it ourselves.
                In addition, the same blow of the KOVO mechanized corps was quite successful in design. And if the command of the South-West Division would not cancel the order of the National High Command (subordination and discipline - no, this is not about the Red Army) and would not start leapfrogging and reassignment of the mechanized corps ... if they simply obeyed the order, then 1 TGr would have big problems.


                Neither subtract nor add.
            3. 0
              April 9 2019 15: 29
              Quote: vladimirZ
              But Marshal Shaposhnikov came, and he set out these thoughts in the only ones signed by the leadership of the USSR, including I.V. Stalin, Plan of the beginning of the war - "Considerations for the deployment of troops." Find them on the Internet and read them.
              Shaposhnikov’s plan provided for three directions for the Germans to strike: - the main one in Belarus, as well as in the Baltic states and Ukraine, in the direction of Kiev.
              The plan did not rule out a strike on Ukraine - the so-called "Southern option" of Shaposhnikov's "Considerations", but the main blow was still supposed to be higher than the Pripyat swamps, in the traditional direction for the invaders - through Belarus to Moscow - the "Northern Option".
              Unfortunately, after Shaposhnikov, Meretskov, who replaced him together with the People's Commissar Timoshenko, and then replaced Meretskov, Zhukov concentrated their actions on the secondary "Southern option" blow.

              Sorry, but you didn’t read this document correctly.
              Let's read:
              Germany is most likely to deploy its main force north of the mouth of the San River in order to launch and develop the main strike from East Prussia through Lithuania towards Riga, Kovno and further to Dvinsk, Polotsk or Kovno, Vilno and further to Minsk .
              At the same time, it is necessary to expect attacks on the front of Bialystok, Brest, with their development in the direction of Baranovichi, Minsk ...
              The main, most politically beneficial for Germany, and therefore the most likely, is the 1-th version of its actions, i.e. with the deployment of the main forces of the German army north of the mouth of the San River.
              The approximate time period for the deployment of German armies on our western borders is 10-15 day from the beginning of concentration ...
              Considering that the main blow of the Germans will be directed north of the mouth of the San River, it is necessary that the main forces of the Red Army be deployed north of Polesie.
              In the South, active defense should cover Western Ukraine and Bessarabia, and as much of the German army as possible should be bound. The main task of our troops is to defeat the German forces concentrated in East Prussia and in the Warsaw area: with an auxiliary blow, defeat an enemy group in the area of ​​Ivangorod, Lublin, Hrubieshov, Tomashev, Sandomierz. why deploy:
              The Northwest Front - the main task is to concentrate to attack the enemy with the ultimate goal, together with the Western Front, to defeat his group in East Prussia and take control of the latter. The front should have 8 and 11 armies ....
              The Western Front - the main task - to strike north of the Bug River, in the general direction of Alenstein, together with the armies of the North-Western Front, inflict a decisive defeat on the German armies concentrating on the territory of East Prussia, capture the latter and reach the lower reaches of the Vistula River. At the same time, by attacking the left-flank army in a general direction at Ivangorod, together with the armies of the South-Western Front, defeat the enemy’s Ivangorod-Lublin group and also reach the Vistula River ...

              And now I am transferring it to you and everyone that Shaposhnikov assumed the main blow of the Germans from the region of East Prussia through Lithuania with the subsequent divergence to Leningrad and Moscow.
              He did not guess the same with the main direction of the Wehrmacht strike.
              1. 0
                April 9 2019 16: 31
                And now I am transferring it to you and everyone that Shaposhnikov assumed the main blow of the Germans from the region of East Prussia through Lithuania with the subsequent divergence to Leningrad and Moscow.
                He did not guess the same with the main direction of the Wehrmacht strike.
                - svp67 (Sergey)

                Re-read the document you cited.
                Germany is most likely to deploy its main force north of the mouth of the San River, in order to deliver and develop from East Prussia through Lithuania the main strike in the direction of Riga, Kovno and further to Dvinsk, Polotsk or Kovno, Vilna and on to Minsk.
                At the same time, it is necessary to expect attacks on the front of Bialystok, Brest, with their development in the direction of Baranovichi, Minsk ...
                1. 0
                  April 9 2019 16: 34
                  Quote: vladimirZ
                  Re-read the document you cited.

                  Strange you are, well, read ...
                  Quote: vladimirZ
                  Germany is most likely to deploy its main force north of the mouth of the San River in order to infuse and develop from East Prussia through Lithuania the main blow in the direction of Riga, Kovno and further to Dvinsk, Polotsk or Kovno, Vilno and further to Minsk.

                  You understand the concept of a MAJOR IMPACT. And everything else was considered AUXILIARY blows. So that Shaposhnikov did not guess the same
                  1. 0
                    April 9 2019 17: 58
                    You understand the concept of a MAJOR IMPACT. And everything else was considered AUXILIARY blows. So that Shaposhnikov did not guess the same
                    - svp67 (Sergey)

                    Do you yourself even understand what you are reading?
                    A blow to Belarus from the north through the Baltic states to Minsk, and from the south through the Brest direction to Minsk too. In general, to Belarus, with the encirclement of all the troops of the Western Front.
                    And a separate strike in the Baltic states with access to Leningrad - as an auxiliary strike.
                    1. +1
                      April 9 2019 18: 05
                      Quote: vladimirZ
                      In general, to Belarus, with the encirclement of all the troops of the Western Front.

                      And where did the Northwest Front go? Indeed, it was through his orders, according to Shapashnikov, that the Germans struck the main blow. Not Western, but Northwest.
                      1. +1
                        April 9 2019 18: 18
                        And where did the Northwest Front go? Indeed, it was through his orders, according to Shapashnikov, that the Germans struck the main blow. Not Western, but Northwest.
                        - svp67 (Sergey)

                        A double blow was struck on the North-Western Front - one, the main one, in the interests of encircling the troops located in Belarus, i.e. in Belarus, and the second through the Baltic to Leningrad.
                        Agree, well, after all, the Germans’s strike through the Baltic to Leningrad cannot be considered the main blow?
                        See a map of the same Barbaross Plan. Unable to load. Find for yourself.
                      2. 0
                        April 9 2019 18: 32
                        Quote: vladimirZ
                        A double blow was struck on the North-Western Front - one, the main one, in the interests of encircling the troops located in Belarus, i.e. in Belarus, and the second through the Baltic to Leningrad.
                        Agree, well, after all, the Germans’s strike through the Baltic to Leningrad cannot be considered the main blow?

                        You don’t confuse what Marshal Shapashnikov suggested, with what it really was.
                        According to Shaposhnikov, the Germans from East Prussia just dealt the main blow to the North-Western Front, with the further advance of a part of the forces to Leningrad, and part to Moscow.
              2. 0
                April 9 2019 16: 40
                Quote: svp67
                then Shaposhnikov assumed the main blow of the Germans from the region of East Prussia through Lithuania with the subsequent divergence to Leningrad and Moscow.

                and what is wrong? according to his hypothesis, 2 enemy TGs were operating ... almost 50% of tank forces ...
                another 25% in the specified 2nd direction ...
                Quote: svp67
                attacks on the front of Bialystok, Brest, with their development in the direction of Baranavichy, Minsk ...

                If the Red Army turned around and began to defend in these directions, having in the 2 echelon of the TC, then the Germans would wash themselves with blood ... request
                1. +2
                  April 9 2019 16: 46
                  Quote: ser56
                  If the Red Army turned around and began to defend in these directions, having in the 2 echelon of the TC, then the Germans would wash themselves with blood ...

                  Unfortunately no, even having THREE MK there. The Germans greatly excelled us strategically.
                2. +1
                  April 9 2019 17: 06
                  Quote: ser56
                  and what is wrong? according to his hypothesis, 2 enemy TGs were operating ... almost 50% of tank forces ...
                  another 25% in the specified 2nd direction ...

                  Ahem ... is it true that 1 TGr attacked in the ZOV band? wink
                  1. +1
                    April 9 2019 17: 24
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    Ahem ... really 1 TGr attacked in the ZOV band

                    Well, if you need commonplace:
                    see 2TG Guderian - this is a blow through Brest-Baranovichi-Minsk ... "Brest, with their development in the direction of Baranovichi, Minsk ..."
                    and 3 and 4 TGs just hit through Lithuania, one to Daugavpils, the second to Vilnius-Minsk .... or whatever in the original source: "or to Kovno, Vilno and further to Minsk."
                    what don't you like? in general, the plan was revealed correctly - the environment of our call and cutting strike through the Baltic states - Leningrad ...
                3. +2
                  April 9 2019 17: 40
                  Quote: ser56
                  If the Red Army turned around and began to defend in these directions, having in the 2 echelon of the TC, then the Germans would wash themselves with blood ...

                  Dear ...
                  Remind, please, the structure of MK at that time. And not the payroll, and the real state of things.
                  What were you going to reinforce defense with? In what quantity and in which specific direction?
                  These "shouts from the audience" are evidence of both ignorance of the structures of Panzerwaffe tank groups, and misunderstanding of the capabilities and mobility of the Red Army MK in June 41.
                  1. +2
                    April 9 2019 18: 47
                    Quote: stalkerwalker
                    Dear ...

                    Is this your form when there are no arguments? bully
                    Quote: stalkerwalker
                    Remind, please, the structure of MK at that time. And not the payroll, and the real state of things.

                    1) and who in February 41g began to form 21MK? bully
                    2) 8MK of the first stage were fully equipped ... and there were enough forces there ...
                    Quote: stalkerwalker
                    What were you going to reinforce defense with? In what quantity and in which specific direction?

                    corny - UR ... as prescribed by the charter of the Red Army ... and tanks for konradar ... bully
                    Quote: stalkerwalker
                    These "shouts from the audience"

                    fun ... and you on stage? bully
                    1. 0
                      April 10 2019 01: 15
                      Quote: ser56
                      8MK of the first stage were fully equipped ... and there were enough forces there ...

                      Enough for what? To oppose the 8-muys with the 4-m Wehrmacht TGroups?
                      And do not confuse the payroll of the MK, given at the beginning of the article, with real numbers.
                      Quote: ser56
                      corny - UR ... as prescribed by the charter of the Red Army ... and tanks for konradar.

                      Have you played enough in the tanks?
                      The charter of the Red Army prescribed one way to use tank units - ATAKA. Continue to continue?
                      The URs of the Stalin line and the Molotov line of the Wehrmacht were not an obstacle. Even if they were filled. As it was in France and Belgium, with the Maginot line and the Belgian forts, against which our URs were a pale shadow.
                      1. +1
                        April 10 2019 12: 25
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        In order to withstand 8 buildings of the Wehrmacht?

                        and how much strength do you need in defense? 2x advantage in technology is not enough? bully Have you ever drawn a platoon / company stronghold? Did the calculation of forces and means for its destruction? hi
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        And do not confuse the payroll of the MK, given at the beginning of the article, with real numbers.

                        if the material and drugs were not smeared at 29 MK, but concentrated at 8, then these would be quite combat-ready units ... but the GKZh needed a lot of MK ... why? bully
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Have you played enough in the tanks?

                        I don’t play at all ... I played on maps for a very long time, but not at will ... feel
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        The charter of the Red Army prescribed one way to use tank units - ATAKA. Continue to continue?

                        what generals, such is the charter ... the complete absolutization of tanks .. bully
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        The URs of the Stalin line and the Molotov line of the Wehrmacht were not a hindrance.

                        1) UR is a fortified area, it is a UNION in the Red Army ... have fun ... bully
                        2) when the URs were occupied by troops - the Germans took a sip - see Kiev UR, and others justified themselves ... the same on Karelsky ...
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        with the Maginot line and the Belgian forts,

                        look how they were taken ... it's different ...
                      2. +1
                        April 10 2019 14: 48
                        Quote: ser56
                        Have you ever drawn a platoon / company stronghold?

                        You are our painter ....
                        Quote: ser56
                        if the material and drugs were not smeared according to 29 MK, but concentrated in 8, then these would be quite combat-ready units

                        Would you raise documents? And they calculated (remember the multiplication table?) - the ratio of forces in the directions of the main strike of the notorious TGr and the defense of the Red Army at the border. But you are not aware that not all MK of the Red Army were not at the very border. And their mobility was very low, given the speed of the tractors of guns, and infantry, marching on their own. Or were all MK staffed?
                        With your abilities, yes to the General Staff, right now. Though in ISIS, even in Mozambique ...
                        Quote: ser56
                        when the URs were occupied by troops - the Germans took a sip - see Kiev UR, and others justified themselves ... the same on Karelsky ...

                        Well, yes ... Well, yes ... Both of them were right on the border. And they were filled with troops, including the foreground for 2 hours.
                        For the orphaned and the wretched ....
                        The Red Army was preparing for Operation Citadel from May to July 1943. The scale of the defense of the Central and Voronezh fronts is absolutely incomparable with the state border in June 1941. Rokossovsky "caught" Model's tanks in a 90 km section and did not guess the direction of the main attack. It was more difficult for Vatutin, his tank-hazardous section width reached 135 km. And I didn't guess either.
                        The concentration of spacecraft forces was such that it was not necessary to compare it with the unmobilized Red Army with the 8 MK in incomplete completeness and the lack of traction and vehicles with petrol tankers in the required quantity.
                        Finally, feel the difference, you are our warlike ...
                      3. 0
                        April 10 2019 17: 09
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        You are our pictorial ..

                        provoke? And we will not succumb to provocations bully
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        the balance of forces in the directions of the main attack of the notorious TGr and the defense of the Red Army at the border

                        Oh, what a passion for the illiterate of the General Staff of the Red Army! crying Who prevented the Red Army from setting up a defensive line along the rivers? Somehow, RIA initially gave the Kingdom of Poland, due to the impossibility of defending, but the "strategists" from the Red Army brought the main forces of the ZOVO into a bag even before the war ... and the Germans are to blame - they created shock groups on the flanks ... as the BMSH predicted. .. bully
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        given the speed of the tractors of guns, and infantry, marching on their own two

                        and the Germans are all on the car ... even the cavalry division at Guderian ... again the tales of Agitprop ... bully
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Or were all MK staffed?

                        and it was impossible to equip them at all ... request and why with such strategists? Under Brody they had a 5-fold superiority in tanks - as a result of the defeat ... request But in history, the enemy had an advantage in tanks and motorized infantry ... bully
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Both of them were right on the border. And they were filled with troops, including the foreground for 2 hours.

                        and who prevented taking UR June 14? hi
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        For the orphaned and the wretched ....

                        how are you strict about yourself ... crying
                        Quote: stalkerwalker
                        Finally, feel the difference, you are our warlike ...

                        Maybe you throw off the blinkers and understand. that the leadership of the country and the Red Army had illiterate homegrown strategists who proceeded from concepts, not situations ... hi Which allowed to defeat France in 1940 and believed that Hitler would allow them to rearm the army? bully
                      4. 0
                        April 10 2019 17: 24
                        Strange logic, did the defense along the Bug River line help the Red Army? You can’t write about bridges, infantry was crossing them, TDs were crossing on pontoons.
                      5. 0
                        April 11 2019 14: 10
                        Quote: ser56
                        the leadership of the country and the Red Army had illiterate homegrown strategists who proceeded from concepts, not situations ... Which allowed to defeat France in 1940

                        So the Red Army was supposed to harness for France and defend Paris?
        2. +2
          April 9 2019 13: 42
          Quote: vladimirZ
          What, dear author (without irony), is this a "plan" that "provided for the disruption of the deployment of the German army"? There was no such plan that actually meant hitting first.

          Disruption of the deployment of the enemy was provided for in all plans for covering the borders. Here is the KOVO plan:
          Prevent the invasion of both ground and air enemies in the district.
          The stubborn defense of the fortifications along the state border firmly covers the mobilization, concentration and deployment of the troops of the district. Air defense and air operations ensure the normal operation of the railways and the concentration of troops of the district. All types of intelligence in a timely manner determine the nature of the concentration and grouping of enemy troops.
          By active actions of aviation to gain air supremacy and powerful strikes against the main groupings of troops, railway junctions and bridges, disrupt and delay the concentration and deployment of enemy troops.

          The fact is that before the war it was believed that cover / invasion forces would start the war, and the deployment of the main forces would occur after the start of the war. And so it was necessary to disrupt it.
          Quote: vladimirZ
          Why the Odessa Military District, under the leadership of the chief of staff of Zakharov, managed to put the troops on alert before the outbreak of hostilities, and the leadership of the Baltic, Kiev, and especially the West, did not.

          If the same grouping acted against the Odessa district as against the other districts, then his fate would be the same as that of the Military District. The success of the combat operations of the OdVO troops in the initial period of the war is not related to the readiness of the district, but to the composition of the enemy’s forces. No readiness would have saved OdVO, a tank group and purely German infantry had piled on it.
          Quote: vladimirZ
          Is it only the worst training of headquarters and weaknesses, inexperience of command?

          Of course not. The thing is the poor preparation of the middle and junior command staff, as well as the rank and file. The county or army headquarters may issue an excellent plan — which they simply cannot execute. Because the battalion commanders do not know how to use battalion artillery and mortars and immediately request 152-mm howitzers and 122-mm guns to fire at infantry groups and single soldiers of the enemy (and for now, the court and the case - the infantry is waiting for artillery raids), because the comrades are not on the march observed that the fighters threw the base plates to the mortars, because the fighters do not fire from personal and group weapons (the consumption of rifle cartridges in an attack is 3-5 per day per fighter).
          1. +3
            April 9 2019 14: 05
            Disruption of the deployment of the enemy was provided for in all plans for covering the borders. Here is the KOVO plan:
            - Alexey RA (Alexey)

            Enlighten us, how will it be planned to "disrupt the deployment of the enemy" already deployed before the attack, before the start of the war? They HAVE ALREADY BEEN DEPLOYED for combat and invasion. All our other "disruptions to their deployment" are boltology, nothing more.
            These notes are made from the old idea of ​​the beginning of the war, according to the experience of the First World War. The Great Patriotic War of 1941 began according to new laws - without declaring war, with the already deployed German troops, fully mobilized and combat-ready.
            And our commanders, the Zhukovs-Timoshenko, expected that the Germans were so "stupid" to give them time to mobilize, pull up the troops, they would ask: "Well, is Ivan the Russian ready to fight? Are we starting?" So what?

            Across the Odessa VO. The point is not that there were no large German troops against them, the point is that before the start of hostilities "at 4 o'clock in the morning" they were alerted and took their assigned places.
            By the way, in Odessa Military District - the only one where aviation was relocated to field airfields on the night of June 22, and there were no significant aviation losses, as a result of which the Air Force commander of Odessa Military District was not the only one who was shot for failure to comply with this order.
            1. 0
              April 9 2019 17: 54
              Quote: vladimirZ
              Enlighten us, how will it be planned to "disrupt the deployment of the enemy" already deployed before the attack, before the start of the war? They HAVE ALREADY BEEN DEPLOYED for combat and invasion.

              But such a scenario was not foreseen at all. Moreover, it was believed that before the outbreak of war there would be a threatened period during which the Soviet Union would put forward claims on the diplomatic line. Next will be the mobilization and concentration of the main forces. In the worst case, the invasion army will attack in parallel with this.
              Quote: vladimirZ
              These notes are made from the old idea of ​​the beginning of the war, according to the experience of the First World War.

              And also from the experience of the German invasion of Poland, the Soviet-Finnish war ... in short, from the experience of all wars up to the Great Patriotic War.
              Quote: vladimirZ
              Across the Odessa VO. The point is not that there were no large German troops against them, the point is that before the start of hostilities "at 4 o'clock in the morning" they were alerted and took their assigned places.

              Yeah ... and would it help them if Kleist associates appeared in the OdVO band? Not Romanians, but full TGr. In this case, the SD who found themselves in the offensive zone would have lived for a maximum of one day - and then the Germans would press the OdVO troops to the Black Sea.
              Quote: vladimirZ
              By the way, in Odessa VO - the only one where aviation was relocated to field airfields on the night of June 22, and there were no significant aviation losses

              There was simply no one to inflict these losses. The weakest of the backlash groups acted against OdVO. Otherwise, the airdromes would have been opened on the first day - and by the evening of 22 or the afternoon of June 23, the planes that did not have time to refuel and rearm would burn on them.
          2. +4
            April 9 2019 15: 57
            Quote: Alexey RA
            fighters threw base plates to mortars, because fighters do not lead fire from personal and group weapons (the consumption of rifle cartridges in an attack is 3-5 per day per fighter).

            Get on the dangerous track. Here and to M. Solonin is not far, soldiers - dissidents.
            1. 0
              April 9 2019 17: 55
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Get on the dangerous track. Here and to M. Solonin is not far, soldiers - dissidents.

              Yes, what dissent is there. Walking march, horseradish feeding - that’s the weight that was thrown away. And the junior command staff did not control the subordinates.
            2. +2
              April 9 2019 18: 00
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Get on the dangerous track. Here and to M. Solonin is not far, soldiers - dissidents.

              This is a bitter truth.
              1. +4
                April 9 2019 18: 11
                Does a man with marshal epaulettes in the VO assert that not all Soviet people loved Comrade Stalin as a father and mother?

                Incredible.
                1. +1
                  April 9 2019 18: 13
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Does a man with marshal epaulettes in the VO assert that not all Soviet people loved Comrade Stalin as a father and mother?
                  Incredible.

                  Well, suppose I didn’t say that.
                  Meant b / p l / s ..
          3. +2
            April 9 2019 16: 54
            Quote: Alexey RA
            The thing is the poor preparation of the middle and junior command staff, as well as the rank and file. The county or army headquarters may issue an excellent plan — which they simply cannot execute.

            if not a secret - and who is responsible for the combat training of the troops? bully If the troops are not ready to blame the commanders ...
            1. 0
              April 9 2019 17: 10
              If we talk about BTV, then this is the result of the creation of 29 MKs, it took a lot of competent w / sl, and at the disposal of one (spring) call and seconded from other parts.
              1. +3
                April 9 2019 17: 27
                Quote: strannik1985
                If we talk about BTV, then this is the result of the creation of 29 MK,

                I absolutely agree, but the last 21 MK, while who suggested this before the start of the war and essentially ruined all the tank troops of the Red Army? bully And then he wrote in a memoir that he did not know the capabilities of the military industry ... bully
            2. 0
              April 9 2019 17: 51
              Quote: ser56
              if not a secret - and who is responsible for the combat training of the troops? If the troops are not ready to blame the commanders ...

              Well, certainly not NGS.
              You yourself will determine who is responsible for the combat training of the district, army, etc. in order.
              1. +2
                April 9 2019 18: 48
                Quote: stalkerwalker
                Well, certainly not NGS.

                But for the deployment of troops? their plans? intelligence? bully
                1. +2
                  April 10 2019 11: 31
                  Quote: ser56
                  But for the deployment of troops? their plans? intelligence?

                  Well, haberdashery you ours, seized on. NGS like a hungry dog ​​for a bone?
                  Cho forgot about fuel, communications, transportation, weather, sowing, final exams in schools, flying in a dream and in reality?
                  1. +1
                    April 10 2019 11: 36
                    Quote: stalkerwalker
                    Well, haberdashery you ours, seized on. NGS like a hungry dog ​​for a bone?

                    If it’s no secret, is it up to you to occupy a high position and be responsible for things not related to what you have done in this position? bully For the functions listed by me, the beginning was directly responsible. GS Red Army! GKZH held this position! It means his responsibility, and the one in the memoir pretended to be a girl ... bully And now he is made an icon, an infallible winner ... bully
                    Quote: stalkerwalker
                    final exams in schools, flying in a dream and in reality?

                    decided to run to the side? The usual tactic when there is no argument ... bully
                    1. +2
                      April 10 2019 13: 38
                      Quote: ser56
                      For the functions listed by me, the beginning was directly responsible. GS Red Army! GKZH held this position!

                      Well, it’s nice .... And I was afraid that you’ll remember PPS too .. And even PZ ...
                      Quote: ser56
                      So his responsibility,

                      You are our competent, list ALL the duties of the Chief of Staff in 1941 in accordance with all regulatory documents. Maybe they still forgot?
                      Quote: ser56
                      run sideways? The usual tactic when there is no argument

                      "What are your arguments?" Well, downright "Red heat in reality" ...
                      Your argument is visible to the naked eye - Rezun and evon dogs, with baseless accusations, without documentary evidence ...
        3. 0
          April 9 2019 16: 12
          it is true - whether it was betrayal or not is not entirely clear (participation in the Vlasov army does not initially mean betrayal when captured), although such a theory has the right to exist, but that the complete incompetence of the high command of the Red Army is without a doubt ...
      2. +1
        April 9 2019 15: 40
        Quote: Jura 27
        The plan for the war with Germany (for example, "Thunderstorm") envisaged an unexpected massive attack by mechanized corps in 1031 tanks, against an incompletely FOCUSED enemy.

        To begin with, there wasn’t such a plan. The head of the General Department of the General Staff Vasilevsky made such an offer, but after detailed consideration they refused further development.
        The entire three-echelon structure of the construction of the Soviet troops said that the main task according to the plan and defense of the state border was to meet the mobilized forces of the first echelon of the enemy at the border, to restrain him with part of the forces, and to strike at the root of the alleged strike groups with part of the forces previously concentrated in the Bialystok ledge.
  2. +2
    April 9 2019 05: 49
    Yes, the first months of the war were all months of heavy defeats of the Red Army ... I read the memoirs of our front-line tank soldiers and the German soldiers of those years, I felt a heavy feeling from this ... there were rare victories, but they did not hold back the Wehrmacht deep into the USSR for a short time.
  3. +5
    April 9 2019 06: 56
    The problem remains relevant to this day. And not only for tankers. The army should be led not by "talented managers" and not by so-called "hawks", but by intelligent generals and industrialists. Because the rear and the army should be symbiosis, not parasitism.
  4. -8
    April 9 2019 07: 32
    That's awesome!
    The author argues in paragraph 1 on the plan of war! This plan is still unknown to historians, i.e. we do not know how MK should be used in the initial period of the war, what tasks to perform. And organizational tasks are being developed for tasks. Accordingly, the author’s reasoning is incorrect.
    1. -4
      April 9 2019 08: 42
      according to the memoirs of German generals, the plan for starting a war was also very conditional for them
      he had formal tactical goals and objectives, but all this became irrelevant after 2 weeks.
      at week 3, absurdity arose - in the Belarusian direction, some German units were advancing, while others were retreating. This is to say that the German generals, in general, were not quite up to date with the plan, but someone harshly said that it simply did not exist.
      1. -4
        April 9 2019 09: 22
        The Germans had a Barbaross plan. But in relation to the Red Army more difficult. We know that in April-May, formations and associations began to be transferred to the western military districts under the guise of exercises. But we don’t know why they were transferred. They have not published plans for their use in the initial period of the war.
        1. +1
          April 9 2019 09: 37
          you do not quote Suvorov?
          as far as I know, there were no special large-scale transfers
          but there were delays with the demobilization and release of reservists after the planned fees
          There was a planned formation of parts.
          However, do not forget that most vacation events and rotation were carried out at a standard pace.
          1. -1
            April 9 2019 09: 46
            Key phrase: "as far as I know." Take an interest in the question, start with the April Directives ... and then we will continue if you wish.
            hi
            1. +2
              April 9 2019 09: 54
              Do you understand the difference between directives and reality?
              As an example, the detailed directive of the headquarters to ensure the protection of border airfields was simply not implemented.
              1. 0
                April 9 2019 10: 21
                Do you understand what issue is being discussed? Let me remind you.
                Author:
                1. The strategic initiative belonged to our adversary, while the USSR did not have plans to repel such an invasion. The fact is that USSR war plan provided disruption of the deployment of the German army by forces stationed in the border districts, but the intelligence "overslept" and we had to repel the invasion of a fully mobilized and deployed enemy.

                Az sinful:
                we do not know how MK should be used in the initial period of the war, what tasks to perform. And organizational tasks are being developed for tasks. Accordingly, the author’s reasoning is incorrect.
                The author does not know the Soviet war plans, but discusses them - that’s the essence of my claims.
                You can learn about Soviet plans to use MK, for example, from the report of General Pavlov at the December meeting of the highest command personnel of the Red Army in 1940. But the author refers to "war plans" unknown to him ...
                1. +1
                  April 9 2019 10: 24
                  Well, firstly, the Red Army had several plans and sometimes they contradicted each other. Cover plans, offensive plans, etc.
                  1. 0
                    April 9 2019 10: 29
                    smile
                    Thank. This is the end.
                  2. 0
                    April 9 2019 17: 12
                    They did not contradict, the cover plans at the time of the concentration of the spacecraft near the border, "Considerations about the deployment ..." - the report material as the NPO and the NGS would like to fight after the concentration.
                    1. -1
                      April 9 2019 17: 30
                      there were contradictions - our majority of maneuvers planned, for example, from the possibility of delivering a preemptive strike
                      standards for movement of mechanized corps were clearly overstated
                      about artillery and its deployment, generally just fairy tales were in the plans.
                      Of the one and a half thousand modern aircraft at the border, less than 15% were equipped with mastered crews.
                      1. -1
                        April 9 2019 17: 55
                        This is not a contradiction, but a struggle for initiative. The plans proceeded from the fact that the war did not begin with the border crossing, but earlier, when opening the concentration of troops on the border, passive defense on such a wide front is a losing business.
            2. +2
              April 9 2019 12: 30
              Quote: Falstaff
              Ask, start with the April Directives ...

              Why, I wonder, since April? But what about Shaposhnikov's "considerations"?
              1. 0
                April 9 2019 13: 04
                That is why preliminary orders to the troops about redeployment to the west flew from Moscow in April.
                (shrugging shoulders): what does Shaposhnikov’s thoughts have to do with the spring of 41?
                1. +1
                  April 9 2019 14: 07
                  Quote: Falstaff
                  That is why preliminary orders to the troops about redeployment to the west flew from Moscow in April.

                  It is clear :)))) That is, in your opinion, the first plan of the Red Army appeared in 1941 g, and before that nothing existed :)))
                  1. +1
                    April 9 2019 14: 42
                    To put it mildly, a strange conclusion.
                2. 0
                  April 10 2019 09: 22
                  the first redeployment orders flew almost immediately after the conclusion of the Molotov-Ribentrop pact and continued to fly continuously for a year and a half, because the border changed greatly. You are talking about aggression, but I am saying that there are elementary requirements for protecting the borders, for example, you need to support border outposts with something, and with the movement of borders, covering troops also move.
        2. 0
          April 10 2019 17: 22
          You do not know that. Do not speak for others.
    2. +4
      April 9 2019 12: 27
      Quote: Falstaff
      The author talks in paragraph 1 about the plan of war! This plan is still unknown to historians.

      Perhaps he is unknown to you, but then it is completely unclear why you call yourself a historian, and in the plural too :)))
      1. 0
        April 9 2019 13: 06
        BUT! Do you know him? So enlighten, it will be a new word in science!
        1. +1
          April 9 2019 14: 10
          Quote: Falstaff
          BUT! Do you know him? So enlighten, it will be a new word in science!

          There will be nothing new for historians :))) In 1940, the plan was developed in accordance with Shaposhnikov's Considerations, in 1941, see the "cover plans" for border districts, and you will be happy :)
          1. -2
            April 9 2019 14: 54
            Nah yes. I ask a question about a war plan, but they give me ... a cover plan. Uh, how could I explain to you softer ... Yeah, I came up with: kindly enlighten how the 16th army was supposed to act in accordance with the cover plans, let's say.
            Thanks in advance.
            hi
            1. +3
              April 9 2019 15: 42
              Quote: Falstaff
              Y-yes. I ask a question about a plan of war, but they give me ... a cover plan.

              M-dya :)))) Let's try again.
              Do you want to know the plans of the war of the USSR? They have enough
              “On the strategic deployment of the Red Army in case of war in the West under the PR option” (1924)
              “Note on the Defense of the USSR” (1927)
              Operational Plan (1927-1928)
              "The Red Army strategic distribution plan and operational deployment in the West" (1936)
              “Basics of Strategic Deployment in the Far Eastern Theater of Military Operations” (1938)
              “Considerations on the basics of the strategic deployment of the armed forces of the Soviet Union on 1940 — 1941” (1940)
              “Considerations for the strategic deployment of the armed forces of the Soviet Union in case of war with Germany and its allies” (May 1941)
              Do you want to see them, so to speak, in full? No question, you have a way to the archive all this is there and even unclassified, but these are tons of documents. Do you want to see them abbreviated? As I said, take the same Shaposhnikov, I can also advise documents on the deployment of the Red Army, like "On the fundamentals of the deployment of the armed forces of the Soviet Union No. 103202 / s September 18, 1940" But you need to understand that this is also just the tip of the iceberg, the tasks there are very large
              The western front — the main task — firmly covering the Minsk area, by concentrating the troops, simultaneously striking the North-Western front, in the general direction towards Alenshteyn, bind the German forces concentrated in East Prussia. With the advance of the armies of the Southwestern Front, striking the left-flank army in the general direction of Ivangorod, helping the Southwestern Front to smash the enemy's Lublin grouping and, further developing the operation on the Radom, support the actions of the Southwestern Front from the north.

              If you wish, of course, you can detail these plans to specific compounds, but historians have been particularly bothered by this, so if you like, I repeat, the doors of the archives are open :))))
              But in 1941, the plan itself ... we can say that it wasn’t, because we overslept the Wehrmacht’s concentration on the borders, and didn’t have a plan for when it was already concentrated and deployed, that is, the old plan didn’t fit. Attempted to rectify the situation with individual pointers, such as cover plans.
              Therefore your question
              Quote: Falstaff
              Yeah, I thought: be so kind as to enlighten how, according to the plans of the cover, the 16 army should have acted, let's say without thinking.

              just doesn't make sense.
              1. -3
                April 9 2019 16: 01
                You wrote a long post, but I modestly asked to inform, in accordance with which plans of the Red Army connections were transferred to the west, to which you reply:
                But in the 1941 g plan as such ... we can say that it was not
                What was required to prove: as I reported above, plans to use the Red Army in the summer of 1941 were unknown. You decided to challenge this ... eventually agreeing with my statement.
                As required.
                Therefore, your question "enlighten how, in accordance with the cover plans, the 16th Army was supposed to act, say offhand," simply does not make sense.
                smile
                So this is understandable: as soon as it comes to the specifics, so the opponents and the meaning is lost somewhere ...
                Because it becomes clear that cover plans are not a fig leaf and the fact of the absence of a war plan will not cover.
                lol
                1. +4
                  April 9 2019 16: 09
                  Quote: Falstaff
                  What was required to prove: as I reported above, plans to use the Red Army in the summer of 1941 were unknown. You decided to challenge this ... eventually agreeing with my statement.

                  That is, not being able to argue on the merits, you decided to resort to casuistry.
                  Well, your choice.
                  in fact, it was as follows: as I said, the Red Army had a plan for 1941 and its main provisions can be seen from the corresponding strategic deployment plan and Shaposhnikov's considerations. But in the spring of 1941, he became inapplicable, due to the fact that the Germans mobilized their army for the war, but we did not, and we missed the moment of concentration on the state border of the large German forces. Attempts to somehow adapt to the changed situation are precisely the plans of covering the districts, the transfer of the 16 army, etc.
                  Thus, the war plan of the Red Army is not "unknown", but is well known, but in the spring of 1941 it lost its relevance and they tried to quickly do something else to replace it. Which, of course, was impossible - such plans are not created in a week or a month. That is why your joke about the 16th Army (I can imagine how smart you seemed to yourself when you asked this question) does not make sense within the pre-war plans of the Red Army
                  1. -2
                    April 9 2019 17: 54
                    That is, not being able to argue on the merits, you decided to resort to casuistry.
                    as I said, the Red Army HAS a plan for 1941
                    And earlier you wrote otherwise:
                    But in the 1941 g plan as such ... we can say that it was not
                    Conclusion: You do casuistry ... and blame me for it. negative
                    Thus, the war plan of the Red Army is not "unknown", but is well known, but in the spring of 1941 it lost its relevance and they tried to quickly do something else to replace it.
                    These are yours words. Not supported by texture, they are uninteresting.
                    Your joke about the 16th army
                    Therefore, instead of blah blah, I propose to answer: so on the basis of what plan 16A was transferred to the Berdichev area? You know the plans of the Red Army, why are you so at a loss with an answer?
                    1. +4
                      April 9 2019 18: 57
                      Quote: Falstaff
                      These are your words. Not backed up by texture, they are uninteresting.

                      The invoice is Shaposhnikov's Considerations, strategic deployment documents and archives. But you really, except for words - nothing. And juggling since my
                      Quote: Falstaff
                      And earlier you wrote otherwise:
                      But in the 1941 g plan as such ... we can say that it was not

                      apparently related to the spring of 1941 when it became known that the existing plan was useless
                      Quote: Falstaff
                      Therefore, instead of blah blah, I propose to answer: so on the basis of what plan did 16A move to the Berdichev area?

                      And then the disc got stuck completely :)))) well, I think those who read our correspondence have already understood everything
                      1. -3
                        April 9 2019 19: 20
                        The invoice is Shaposhnikov’s Considerations, strategic deployment documents and archives.
                        The invoice is evidence M. Zakharova that Shaposhnikov’s plan was rejected and another plan was presented on October 14, 1940 (Zakharov M.V. General Staff in the prewar years). Therefore, the mantra of O. Kozinkin on Shaposhnikov’s considerations is not repeated here, no need.

                        And then the record jammed completely
                        smile
                        Surrendered?
                        Okay, I won’t torment anymore. And for those who read the thread, I’ll inform you: the author of the article mentions the plans for the war, and when he was asked a question, instead of the deployment plan of the Red Army in 1941, he tried to slip in cover plans and Shaposhnikov’s Considerations. But I was caught on specifics: the 16th army is not mentioned either there or there. But in 1941 she was transferred from Transbaikalia to Ukraine. Of course, this was done in accordance with the deployment plan of the Red Army ... which is unknown to historians.
                        As required.
                        I have the honor!
                        hi
                      2. +1
                        April 10 2019 11: 26
                        I am not familiar with this matter, but there are amazing contradictions in your words.
                        Of course, this was done in accordance with the deployment plan of the Red Army ... which unknown to historians.

                        "of course" is a very dubious proof)) And since historians do not know, who knows? You? Then share how you know and what he is the authors, date of adoption, etc.
                      3. -3
                        April 10 2019 12: 12
                        I am not familiar with this matter
                        I explain: The senior boss sets the task for the subordinate to present his thoughts on such an issue. The subordinate prepares considerations, submits to the senior boss for approval. After the approval of considerations, a plan for the use of troops is drawn up on their basis. The plan is again approved by the senior manager. And when the Plan is signed, on its basis Directives, orders, combat orders are issued, in accordance with which the troops make certain movements.
                        It's clear?
                        The first conclusion: orders are not issued on the basis of "Considerations", which is stated in his books by O. Kozinkin, who is repeated here by my opponents. Orders can only be issued based on an approved plan (or an order from a senior superior).
                        Go ahead.
                        So, the 16th army was formed in July 1940 in the Trans-Baikal Military District, and in May 1941 received an order to relocate to the KOVO location. On June 18, the first echelons of the army are unloaded in the Berdichev district.
                        Attention, the question: on the basis of what plan 16A performs regrouping?
                        Here were the answers: "in a planned manner", "in accordance with the cover plans", "in accordance with the Considerations of Shaposhnikov" - and other similar nonsense.
                        In the bottom line, we have a question - and do not have an answer.
                        Something like that.
                      4. 0
                        April 10 2019 15: 29
                        Quote: Falstaff
                        Attention, the question: on the basis of what plan 16A performs regrouping?
                        Here were the answers: "in a planned manner", "in accordance with the cover plans", "in accordance with the Considerations of Shaposhnikov" - and other similar nonsense.

                        A very specific answer was given - it is an OUTLINE transfer :))) But you didn’t notice it carefully, because if you had noticed, your imagination about secret plans will be covered with a copper basin
                      5. +1
                        April 10 2019 16: 06
                        Your words, as I had the pleasure of reporting above, are not the answer. Never.
                        The answer is when you should link to a source that you can check.
                        See how this is done:
                        October 5, 1940 report "On the Foundations of the Strategic Deployment of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union in the West and East in 1940-1941." was discussed by the leaders of the party and government. During the discussion, the General Staff was
                        instructed to finalize the plan in view of the deployment of an even stronger main grouping within the South-Western Front.
                        14 September 1940 was a revised version of the plan ("southern") was submitted
                        government for approval. In it, the main grouping of the Southwest
                        The front was tasked with delivering a more powerful strike in the direction of Lublin, Krakow and further to Breslau {83}. The combat composition of the front, taking into account the reserve, was planned to be increased to 103 divisions, 20 tank brigades and 140 aviation regiments.
                        At the same time, a reserve of the High Command consisting of up to 23 divisions was to be deployed in the rear of the front.

                        1941 - Lessons and Conclusions. Moscow, Military Publishing House, 1992.P. 56.

                        Have you read? Now, for the second time, I ask you not to drag Kozinkin’s mantra here on fulfilling Shaposhnikov’s considerations ... in 1941, it will not be funny anymore.

                        PS Please note - the authors submit information and provide a link to the source.
                        Now your shot: inform pliz, the source from which it follows that 16A was thrown "unscheduled".
                        Thanks in advance.
                      6. 0
                        April 10 2019 17: 05
                        Quote: Falstaff
                        Your words, as I had the pleasure of reporting above, are not the answer. Never.
                        The answer is when you should link to a source that you can check.

                        Falstaff, great! :))))) Take your statement
                        Quote: Falstaff
                        The author talks in paragraph 1 about the plan of war! This plan is still unknown to historians.

                        So the plan is unknown. Good. And suddenly - read your link
                        Quote: Falstaff
                        October 1940 The report “On the Basics of the Strategic Deployment of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union in the West and the East in 1940-1941” was discussed by the leaders of the party and the government. During the discussion, the General Staff was
                        instructed to finalize the plan in view of the deployment of an even stronger main grouping within the South-Western Front.
                        14 September 1940 was a revised version of the plan ("southern") was submitted
                        government for approval.

                        Falstaff, you are our humorist, did you at least understand that you just whipped yourself? :)))
                      7. 0
                        April 10 2019 17: 22
                        laughing
                        You are so funny!
                        I gave a quote from which it follows that 16A was transferred PLANOVO, and not unplanned, as you are lying here. But the plan itself, yes, has not been published.
                        ... Or do you seriously believe that the mention of the plan is the publication of the contents of the plan? (the table fell!)
                        PS But I am glad that you began to read the studies, though so far only in my quotes. I hope this debate encourages you to study issues more seriously before writing your articles.
                      8. -1
                        April 10 2019 17: 35
                        Quote: Falstaff
                        I gave a quote from which it follows that 16A was transferred PLANOVO, and not unplanned, as you are lying here.

                        Falstaff, please make 2 things, this is important:
                        1) re-read your quote and find at least a word about 16 army there
                        2) Contact your health care provider. Spring has begun ...
                      9. 0
                        April 10 2019 17: 57
                        re-read your quote and find there at least a word about the 16th army

                        Y-yes. It's much worse than I thought. The fact that you do not own the materiel is clear even from the mention of Shaposhnikov's considerations. There is no knowledge, but a smart one should work, or how? I gave you a hint - "Lessons and conclusions", ended the quote on the mention of the creation of GC reserves ... Well, open the study, study the material, so as not to sit in a puddle over and over again!
                        Are you too lazy? Okay, I suggest further.
                        We read on with. 83:
                        In accordance with the recommendations of the General Staff, a very important decision was made to advance the troops of the second strategic echelon of the GK reserve armies.
                        and further:
                        The 16th Army (12 divisions) was transferred from May 22 - June 1 to the area of ​​Proskurov, Khmelniki. The troop transfer was planned with the expectation of completion
                        concentration in areas identified by operational plans from June 1 to July 10
                        November 1941, XNUMX

                        Conclusion: Andrew, you not only do not know, but also do not want to know. And this is already very sad.
                      10. -1
                        April 10 2019 18: 25
                        Finally!:))))
                        Quote: Falstaff
                        No knowledge, but smarter - something should work, or how? I gave you a hint

                        No, Falstaff, you just buried yourselves with the ends.
                        Quote: Falstaff
                        We read on with. 83:

                        Read :)) CAREFULLY
                        Quote: Falstaff
                        In accordance with the recommendations of the General Staff, a very important decision was made to advance the troops of the second strategic echelon of the GK reserve armies.

                        We draw attention - not in accordance with the current strategic deployment plans (which you quoted earlier), but ACCORDING TO THE RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE GENERAL STAFF.
                        And now we are looking at the Red Army Strategic Deployment Plan (March 1941) ... well, at least on http://army.armor.kiev.ua
                        Is there an extension of the 16 army to the west? There is no such nomination there. So, it should be clear to EVEN Falstaff that if this nomination is not in the March plan, and then the General Staff recommends it, then it can only be an unscheduled transfer.
                        But I'm glad you found Lessons and Conclusions. This, by the way, is one of the books that became my desk books even when you, it seems, still walked under the table. And when you read it in full, at least the chapter "operational-strategic planning", then you will understand what nonsense you were talking about plans unknown to science.
                      11. -1
                        April 10 2019 19: 50
                        Paragraph! wassat Here we read:
                        In accordance with the recommendations of the General Staff
                        That's right. The army receives instructions from the General Staff. And you kindly ignored the second quote, but it’s not hard for me to quote ONCE AGAIN, for those especially stubborn:
                        concentration in areas identified by operational plans
                        And here we wrap fish?
                        Oh! It seems that the General Staff is giving instructions in accordance with certain plans. It's a shame, right?
                        So, EVEN Falstaff should understand that if the March plan doesn’t have this nomination, then the General Staff recommends it
                        Andrey, ay! The reserve of the Civil Code is provided for in the plan of October 14, 1940!
                        Andrey, learn materiel, learn materiel, learn materiel ...
                      12. -2
                        April 10 2019 19: 57
                        Quote: Falstaff
                        And you have kindly ignored the second quotation, but it’s not hard for me to quote ANYTHING again, for especially stubborn ones:

                        The only trouble is that the second part of the quotation says something completely different - it is clear that the army will unfold
                        Quote: Falstaff
                        in areas planned by operational plans

                        where else would they unfold? In the suburbs? :))) But we are talking about the deployment areas of STRATEGIC ECHELON, which, of course, were in the plans - but the 16-th army was planned there, including the March plans of 1941, nobody was going to deploy. ADD-ON to those connections that were supposed to unfold there according to plan. Because this is an unplanned deployment.
                        And you go wrap the fish, Falstaff. And - if you want to continue, then think about why it is suddenly "lessons and conclusions" so easily talk about "plans unknown to historians" laughing
                      13. +1
                        April 10 2019 20: 31
                        we are talking about the deployment areas of the STRATEGIC ECHELON, which, of course, were plans
                        Well, thank God that it came to you.
                        but the 16th army there according to plans, including the March plans of 1941
                        smile
                        Andrey, sweetheart, are you generally aware that the March plan is called correctly like this: "Specified plan for the strategic deployment of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union in the West and the East "? Veremeyev did not tell you this? My condolences. And the fact that it is in an abbreviated form, you are also blissfully ignorant? Well, find out about it." Yes
                        So what's up with my request? Forgot? Nothing, let me remind you:
                        inform pliz, the source from which it follows that 16A was thrown "unscheduled".
                        Or again, "did not shmogla"?
                        wassat
                      14. -1
                        April 11 2019 06: 56
                        Quote: Falstaff
                        Andrew, sweetheart

                        And again you are confusing me with someone, well, what kind of "sweetheart" am I to you? :)
                        Quote: Falstaff
                        Or again, "did not shmogla"?

                        For those who are unable to understand from the 5, I write in the sixth
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        We draw attention - not in accordance with the current plans of strategic deployment (which you quoted earlier), but in accordance with the recommendations of the General Staff.
                        And now we are looking at the Red Army Strategic Deployment Plan (March 1941) ... well, at least on http://army.armor.kiev.ua
                        Is there an extension of the 16 army to the west? There is no such nomination there. So, it should be clear to EVEN Falstaff that if this nomination is not in the March plan, and then the General Staff recommends it, then it can only be an unscheduled transfer.

                        Refute, if you can.
                      15. 0
                        April 11 2019 07: 51
                        1. We will not become attached to the March plan. It is just refined and presented in abbreviated form.
                        2. The deployment plan was approved in October 1940 and it envisaged the creation of armies of the reserve GK - 2 strategic echelons. After that, the plan was not subjected to fundamental changes, but was constantly updated, this is true.
                        3. Under this plan, armies of 2 SE were already formed, including 16A (since the summer of 1940).
                        4. Cover plans were created for the armies of the western border districts - precisely in order to cover the mobilization, concentration and deployment of the armies of 2 SE ... and among them 16 A. Therefore, 16A could not be in the cover plans. )))
                        5. And the question is: why was 2 SE created? We do not know the plan for its use, but we can guess. Our tips are as follows:
                        a) December meeting of 1940;
                        b) the course of the command post game;
                        c) a note by Vasilevsky of May 1941
                        Voila.
                        hi
                      16. 0
                        April 11 2019 08: 00
                        And now - a control in the head.
                        When did you start developing cover plans in the western districts? No need to prompt? Then it was ALREADY PLANNED, which armies would have to be nominated from the internal districts.
                        My regards.
                        PS Andrey, if something else remains unclear - ask ...
                      17. -1
                        April 10 2019 21: 10
                        why is it that "lessons and conclusions" so easily talk about "plans unknown to historians"
                        They argue not easily, but very hard. They report about Shaposhnikov’s plan to smash the enemy in V. Prussia, then write that this plan was replaced by another — an offensive from the territory of Ukraine to the upper Vistula, and then they report that the main drawback of the plan was the concentration of the Red Army in famous ledges. Oh, look at:
                        the defense created was not designed to reflect the main forces of the enemy. Influenced the location of positions and troops
                        offensive nature of planned strategic actions.
                        The second drawback was that due to the underestimation of the fighting
                        to cover the state border, the most powerful groups of Soviet troops were created in the Bialystok and Lviv ledges,
                        This is a pearl! The lack of defense was that they were not going to defend themselves, but to attack! This is not easy to write ...
                      18. +1
                        April 10 2019 21: 25
                        Quote: Falstaff
                        The lack of defense was that they were not going to defend themselves, but to attack! This is not easy to write ...


                        It is useless. In the comrade, this is a matter of faith. For this, the entire military and political leadership of the USSR is ready to recognize absolutely inadequate people who initially voluntarily drove the main forces of the districts into Bialystok and Lviv sacks for allegedly defense.
                      19. +1
                        April 10 2019 21: 48
                        Yes, I do not insist. I'm not going to convert to another faith ... In general, the fact that Andrei is interested in the topic and writes articles is commendable. And if he takes criticism, then he will write even better. I wish him success.
                      20. -1
                        April 10 2019 15: 27
                        Quote: Falstaff
                        Surrendered?

                        Of course, I gave up :))) What is the point of talking to a person who does not hear his opponent at all?
                        Quote: Falstaff
                        And for those who read the thread, I’ll let you know: the author of the article mentions plans for war, and when asked a question, instead of a plan to deploy the Red Army in 1941, he tried to slip the plans of cover and Shaposhnikov’s considerations. But caught on the specifics: 16 army is not mentioned either there or there.

                        And for those who read the thread, it has long been clear that the plans that the Red Army had on 1941 g could not be implemented in practice as effectively as intelligence found over 80 deployed divisions on our border.
                        And so we had to improvise urgently - to invent new plans to cover the state border, to transfer the 16 army. This transfer, of course, could not be included in any plan as it was non-PLANNED, but it will never come to you :)))
                      21. 0
                        April 10 2019 16: 14
                        I had to urgently improvise - to invent new plans for covering the state border, to transfer the 16th army.
                        That is, you want to say that 16A was transferred in accordance with the "new" PP? Okay, go ahead, imagine these new PPs, let's see what it says about 16A.
                        laughing
                      22. 0
                        April 10 2019 16: 22
                        invent new plans for covering the state border
                        You scare me more and more. Do you even know what PP is? According to the plans of the cover, they cover not the border, not the country, but - what? Right:
                        A note
                        according to the defense plan for the period
                        mobilization, concentration
                        and deployment of KOVO troops
                        on 1941 year
                        I. Tasks of defense

                        Prevent the invasion of both ground and air enemies in the district.

                        Firmly defend the fortifications along the state border mobilization, concentration and deployment district troops.
                        You are asked a question: why did the troops concentrate? You answer: they planned to cover up their concentration - here are the cover plans!
                        laughing lol
                        Oh, and you are funny ... Even awkwardly somehow smack for ignorance, stupidity and stubbornness.
                        Yes
                      23. 0
                        April 10 2019 17: 15
                        Quote: Falstaff
                        Oh, and you are funny ... Even awkwardly somehow smack for ignorance, stupidity and stubbornness.

                        Falstaff, you still have not fidgeted for such feats :)))
                        Quote: Falstaff
                        You scare me more and more. Do you even know what PP is? According to the plans of the cover, they cover not the border, not the country, but - what? Right:

                        No need to blabble my simple statement - the plan of war with which the USSR entered 1941 in the spring of the same year lost its relevance, so it was necessary to improvise. No need to attribute me your fantasies about
                        Quote: Falstaff
                        You are asked a question: why did the troops concentrate? You answer: they planned to cover up their concentration - here are the cover plans!

                        Quote: Falstaff
                        That is, you want to say that 16A was transferred in accordance with the "new" PP?

                        Do you like Russian is not native? What do you all out of habit are going through the wrong answers to which you have arguments? Do you discuss with me at all, or with whom? :))) You respond to what is written to you, and not to what you have homework :)))
                      24. -1
                        April 10 2019 17: 29
                        Andrey, no offense - Have you not yet understood that it is time for you to stop the discussion and sit down at the materiel? Consider this my friendly advice.
                        And what about the T-34, which "lost to triplets and won over the Tigers and Panthers"? Be careful, I am waiting for the continuation to dispel your self-confidence.
                      25. 0
                        April 10 2019 17: 39
                        Quote: Falstaff
                        Andrew, no offense - you still do not understand that it is time for you to stop the discussion and sit down for the materiel?

                        Is this all? :)))) That is, after almost the 10 of the commentary, you still got my answer, and that is All that was enough for you? Send me to learn materiel? :))))
                        Predictably, "guru" You are our spring
              2. -2
                April 10 2019 09: 25
                in a huge abundance of plans there is one caveat - there are just plans, but there are approved plans
                Suvorov / Rezun / Traitor of the motherland speculates a lot on the content of unapproved plans that were, but never were, a guide to action.
                Finally, I would be very careful about quotes from historians who have never been to the archives.

                By the way, I was in the archive in St. Petersburg - my girlfriend works there.
      2. 0
        April 9 2019 13: 08
        From the phrase:
        This plan is still unknown to historians.
        don't follow what i call
        yourself a historian
        Yes
    3. +2
      April 9 2019 13: 51
      Quote: Falstaff
      This plan is still unknown to historians, i.e. we do not know how MK should be used in the initial period of the war, what tasks to perform.

      Hmm ... and if you take the so-called. "cover plans" for the districts?
      1. -1
        April 9 2019 13: 57
        Why take them? With the same success, you can still take the green men ... from Mars.
  5. +5
    April 9 2019 07: 44
    ....... despite all its superiority in the quantity and quality of military equipment, despite the potential superiority in the number of soldiers, in the summer and autumn of 1941 the Red Army could not concentrate, therefore the Germans in each battle were at least equal forces, despite the fact that the strategic initiative was in their hands.
    However, just as water sharpens a stone, so the fierce resistance of the Soviet troops, their desperate, sometimes suicidal counterattacks, finally led to their goal. Near Moscow, the Germans were stopped, and then driven back. But the price was huge. In fact, the Red Army suffered half of all its irretrievable losses in the Great Patriotic War during the summer-autumn campaign of 1941 .....
    1. +5
      April 9 2019 09: 01
      Yes, what is the potential superiority in the number of the Red Army? At the time of June 41, Germany and its allies involved 7.5 million soldiers on the western border. With us, only the entire army gathered throughout the country could be compared in number, which is simply impossible to do, but in reality, the Germans had a local preponderance of 41-2 times until the middle of 8 years. Plus, the million-strong army of the Japanese also had to be guarded.
      Add to this a huge difference in mobility and communication, which affected the concentration of forces.
      To understand how difficult it was - the Germans could walk around encircling a half-million group near Kiev, they did not even need reserves for this. Compare how many forces were required for the encirclement of 300 thousand near Stalingrad - they were only brought up for 3 months.
      Formally, the Red Army had on the border of the mechanized corps, which could smooth out the time difference (and partially smooth out), but they had very high non-combat losses on marches - up to 75% of the composition and their strength was largely lost.
      As a result, the Red Army was able to survive and retreat, but with heavy losses and was able to simply hold on to the defense only after the completion of the first wave of mobilization around October 41, but was still weaker. And you are talking about some potential advantage.
      For some reason, many ignore the fact that the Germans were not alone - they were assisted by more than 60 Allied divisions. Ignore the fact that the Germans received replenishment from all over Europe
      When analyzing the tank composition, for some reason, engineering, auxiliary, reconnaissance tanks (T60 is a tank, why aren’t PZ-2 absent for some reason?) Are allies, tanks and tank wedges of the Allies, freelance tanks, which actually doubles the Wehrmacht’s armored fist.
      And the Germans had thousands of ganomags and other light armored vehicles. Assault guns like stug-III, for some reason, are also not considered a tank, although their armor was thicker than on the t34.

      Many who speak of the advantage of the Red Army simply did not find it difficult to study history.
      1. +1
        April 9 2019 12: 28
        As for the numerical superiority, I support your idea. I will only add that the units that had already been deployed in the second echelon could not ensure 100% participation of the personnel in the battles. The lack of transport and communications did not allow even units of direct border protection to enter the battle. Almost all divisional and mechanized corps commanders describe the advance to the initial ones as a "pedestrian-erotic" relay race, when you drive 3 km and walk 20 km. There were frequent cases when 10-15% of personnel and equipment reached the front line, the rest got up for rest, repairs, etc. and was successfully destroyed by the Luftwaffe. And the unit commander didn’t know about it by sleep or spirit, on his map the division / corps "systematically made a march to the prescribed line."
    2. +2
      April 9 2019 22: 39
      And what is the use of calculating losses if France in May-June of 1940, having general superiority in people and technology, could not fully mobilize?
      And mobilization there began in August 1939!
      The result is known ...
      1. +1
        April 10 2019 14: 44
        France was sufficiently mobilized, do not forget that the Germans also sucked with the mobilization. The defeat of France was due to numerous miscalculations of command.
  6. 0
    April 9 2019 09: 14
    The author is well done. I rarely see objective and competent articles. There’s nothing much to object to))). It should also be noted the error of command in manning pre-war mechanized corps with various types of tanks, which made it difficult to provide, supply, service and marches.
    1. -2
      April 9 2019 09: 38
      there is no mistake - there were limits to production capacities, from which they danced,
      there was a normal evolution of cars - no one knew which tank would be better.
      1. 0
        April 9 2019 09: 50
        I do not mean quality and combat characteristics. HF simply cannot move along even with the T34, even if they do not take into account the breakdowns, their speed on the march is no more than 15 km / h, for T34 30 km / h, for light tanks up to 40 km / h. KV and T34 - diesel, the rest on gasoline - fuel supply is problematic. KV and T34 - gun 76 mm others - 45 mm, KV2 152 mm.
        1. +1
          April 9 2019 09: 57
          well these are not big problems. Much more problems were with basic repairs - many cars had a ridiculous resource. And if you had to repair 5 types of tanks (for example, Kv-1, t34, t60, bt-7, t26) in one part, this was a problem.
          1. 0
            April 9 2019 10: 05
            This is not a big problem right now. And in the conditions of 41, these are awesomely big problems, as there were simply no supply machines; they planned to mobilize them from the national economy, but did not have time. Well, and repair, yes, this is also a problem, especially when you consider that repair units are usually not deployed to staff numbers
            1. +3
              April 9 2019 10: 10
              the repair staff was staffed by a third, but this was not a bottleneck - there was a terrible hunger for spare parts in the warehouses, factories made cars, but not spare parts.
              I think that after the Molotov-Ribentrop Pact, industry had a chance to timely change the priority of supplies in order to increase combat readiness, but this did not happen.
              I think this was one of the strategic mistakes of the country's leadership.
              1. +1
                April 9 2019 10: 19
                You can’t argue, there was a problem with spare parts. The general backwardness of Soviet industry affected it; it simply did not drag out the production of machines and spare parts either. In other matters, industry had a whole Everest of problems. The leadership was also aware of this. What did you do?
                1. -1
                  April 9 2019 10: 32
                  Quote: evgic
                  The leadership was also aware of this. What did you do?

                  No, I didn’t.
                  In the 30s, a negative side of the Stakhanov movement developed in the country to fight for exaggerated and virtual indicators - if only to report coolly, which also affected the plans for industrial production. Remember the scandalous story with the quality of 45mm shells. The leadership did not know the scale of the real problems in the tank units due to the massive disinformation in the reports (one of the reasons for Pavlov's execution). External intelligence also misinformed because of the weak link of analysts, the party, in turn, pressed to give a "plan", the headquarters and events of France, in turn, added throwing, multiply this by the scale, personnel problems and logistics problems, and as a result, the construction of armored troops were severely compromised. There was no consistent work that could be done in Germany.
                  1. 0
                    April 11 2019 21: 34
                    ........ Karen
                    Oganesian
                    The truth about the Great Patriotic War. The Red Army is all stronger! .........
                    In one of S. Lukyanenko’s science fiction novels, which takes place in the distant future, young heroes are fully convinced that during World War II, “bad countries Russia, Germany and Japan attacked the good USA and Israel,” as they are taught in school, so rewrote the history of the XX century.
                    This gloomy fairy tale may well become a reality - over the past 20 years, the enemies of Russia have done everything possible to discredit the Red Army and cancel the greatest Victory in Russian history.
                    On-duty phrases are moving from book to book, from textbook to textbook about the USSR’s unpreparedness for war, about stupid Stalin, mediocre military commanders, outdated equipment, terrible losses, penal battalions and detachments, about “one rifle for three soldiers”, about “Fought by number, not skill” and “filled up with corpses”. Hitler’s army, on the contrary, is presented as an example of organization and martial art - the tales of German aces, shooting down our planes in hundreds, and German tankers, shooting “thirty-four” in thousands, are repeated over and over again. So it’s time to doubt: who actually won the Great Patriotic War?
                    This book is a worthy answer by the denunciators of the past. This book exposes the most common, most vicious, most shameless anti-Soviet myths about the Red Army, World War II and the Great Victory. This book is the best gift to our grandfathers and great-grandfathers who defeated the worst enemy in history ......
                    .... a good book ... for WWII researchers, reading is required .....
                  2. -3
                    April 12 2019 12: 39
                    Quote: yehat
                    In the country in the 30s, the negative side of the Stakhanov movement developed to fight for exaggerated and virtual indicators - just to cool report, which affected the plans for industrial production.

                    in fact, you write correctly, but carefully .... did not work out, but was created! the so-called bullshit ... hence the hunger, a sharp drop in living standards ... request Just managing an economy or army as a political organization is not possible! request And they tried - the failures of the first five-year period - the Industrial Party was to blame ... the dope of collectivization - the kulaks were to blame ... and then VERY many were to blame, the Chekists, Trotskyites, deviators, etc., went into repressions in a meat grinder ... bully But what is curious - the great leader remained outside the scope of criticism - his authority grew ... crying Mao also acted approximately in the 50-60s ... bully
        2. +5
          April 9 2019 10: 30
          Quote: evgic
          marching speed ... at T34 30km / h

          Have you at least read the previous articles in this series? I'm not talking about books?
          1. -3
            April 9 2019 10: 48
            I did not understand your speech. The maximum speed on the highway T-34-76 model 1940 55 km / h. But at that speed the columns do not run, a maximum of 25-30 km / h. What's wrong
            1. +4
              April 9 2019 11: 07
              Quote: evgic
              But at that speed the columns do not run, a maximum of 25-30 km / h. What's wrong

              The 34-year T-41 tank was remarkably poor in mobility due to problems with the gearbox, clutch and suspension. At 30 km / h he drove on paper for at least some time. In reality, the IS-2 detached from them on the march.
              Forget about the maximum speed on the highway. 54 km / h T-34 and 56 km / h Chaffee is the earth and the sky.
              1. -2
                April 9 2019 16: 19
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                The 34-year T-41 tank was remarkably poor in mobility due to problems with the gearbox, clutch and suspension.

                Do not tell me about the problems with the suspension and gearbox, which prevented a long drive at a speed of 30 km / h on a march along the dirt road?
                I am not aware of any significant problems with the suspension, except for "getting wet" and swinging of the shielded version, for the T-34.
                The checkpoint for a novice mechanic who drove only in 2nd gear did not present the same problem to "cut" 25 km / h in a convoy. Could and 30 km / h.
                1. +5
                  April 9 2019 17: 24
                  Quote: goose
                  I am not aware of any significant problems with the suspension, except for "getting wet" and swinging of the shielded version, for the T-34.

                  The swing of the spring suspension without shock absorbers is not only characteristic of the shielded version.
                  Quote: goose
                  The checkpoint for a novice mechanic who drove only in 2nd gear did not present the same problem to "cut" 25 km / h in a convoy. Could and 30 km / h.

                  If you put the engine from the Yak.
                  A tank gave in 2nd gear 15,5 km / h at 1700 rpm. You can remove the speed limiter and give out 2300 rpm at the price of an engine and a friction clutch, this is another 5 km. He gave 40-50 km / h on the fourth, which is included in the convoy, and along the Soviet highway, and T-34, which with the levers released on a straight line does not hold, better not. 25-30 km. - This is just the third program, which, as it were, is not.
                2. +2
                  April 9 2019 17: 59
                  Quote: goose
                  The checkpoint for a novice mechanic who drove only in 2nd gear did not present the same problem to "cut" 25 km / h in a convoy. Could and 30 km / h.

                  Are you serious? That is, a tank stop when shifting gears and the danger of turning off the engine with it is no problem? A step to the left, a step to the right of the stuck gear, and the tank stood up. And the back, swearing. trying to go round him.
                  By the way, the second gear of the four stages is a maximum of 15 km / h.
          2. +2
            April 9 2019 11: 08
            it is worth adding that the march on t34 of early versions to the extreme exhausted the crew
            (box, shaking, clanging and other joys)
            they simply were not able to move like a t-3.
        3. +2
          April 9 2019 15: 52
          Quote: evgic
          HF simply cannot move along even with the T34, even if they do not take into account the breakdowns, their speed on the march is no more than 15 km / h, for T34 30 km / h, for light tanks up to 40 km / h.

          30 km / h in the T-34 - this is the maximum in third gear, that is, when driving on a highway or a dry, unbroken lane. In any other conditions - second gear and the same 15 km / h. Oh yes, shifting gears is highly discouraged:
          Switching gears from I to II and from II to III without the use of special techniques (gas leakage, etc.) is always associated with the danger of turning off the engine, as shockless shifting requires a reduction in engine speed to almost idle.

          However, HF is also not a gift - with its cooling system boiling at 20 km / h and stops when driving along a country road every 1,5 hours to clean the air filters.
        4. -2
          April 9 2019 16: 02
          Quote: evgic
          I do not mean quality and combat characteristics.

          If you are talking about the maintenance of armored vehicles, then this factor was taken into account when forming the corps, and the MK brigades were formed mainly from tanks similar in service. But since even before the war there was not enough BTT, only 7 MKs were completed with grief in half. I would like to remind you of the existence of an MK with 200 T-37 (this is a tankette that made its way out of a rifle, if someone does not know, and in 1940 they all developed a resource without having spare parts) - what was its combat readiness? In fact, half of the MK was training units, hence the shortage in artillery, vehicles, tractors and a zoo of equipment in the brigades of 1941. "Training" MCs could acquire combat readiness only by 1942, based on the rate of training of crews, officers and rates of production of armored vehicles and vehicles (traditionally listed not in the state, but withdrawn from the national economy).
          1. +1
            April 9 2019 19: 02
            Quote: goose
            I would like to recall the existence of the MK with 200 T-37 (this is a wedge that made its way out of the rifle, if anyone does not know, and by 1940 they all worked out a resource without spare parts) - what was his combat readiness?

            So no one was counting on a war in 1941. I will tell you more - Zhukov hoped to get the first well-coordinated corps only in September 1941 - in order to immediately drive him into the exercises.
            So the MK-41 is a training mechanized corps, in which tactical training and coordination of personnel are underway, waiting for new equipment.
      2. +1
        April 9 2019 12: 31
        And then there was the "toad" - how so, the tanks riveted, and now what to do with them? We need to thank Tukhachevsky and others like him for 30 thousand coffins on wheels, well, some on tracks ...
  7. 0
    April 9 2019 09: 36
    And yes, about the controversy, the brigade division. The formation of brigades and their subsequent reduction into corps was caused by the conscious abandonment of tank divisions. The commander of the TC is a lieutenant general position. According to Stalin, the comcor will not allow the building to be pulled apart. army to which he is attached. But the infantry general will put pressure on the divisional commander (usually a colonel) and will be, as in the 41st.
    Something like that.
    In general, the Soviet shopping mall approximately corresponded to the German TD.
    1. +3
      April 9 2019 16: 02
      Quote: Falstaff
      In general, the Soviet shopping mall approximately corresponded to the German TD.

      Not certainly in that way. German TD is, figuratively speaking, the constructor of Lego, from the details (regiments and battalions) of which it is possible to assemble a campaign group in a micro mode for a specific task. The Soviet mk / mk does not provide for such a micro mode: it already has ready-made standard kampfgroups that can be tuned with self-propelled guns, sappers and other additions - but the core of the kampfgroup remains unchanged.
      Actually, it was the transition to ready-made campaign groups that allowed domestic BTVs to get out of the crisis due to the low level of training of commanders and personnel as a whole. Each time, it was not necessary to form a group of uncoordinated subdivisions - with the brigade OSB, a ready-made coherent core was at hand.
      1. 0
        April 9 2019 17: 34
        I mean the BChS (combat strength). Compliance is EXAMPLE.
  8. +1
    April 9 2019 09: 38
    Good article. Definitely a plus.
    Organizational structures had a lot of problems, and new weapons, and new tasks were set. How all this was accomplished in practice. Of course, all this must be studied now, so as not to repeat the mistakes of past years.
    At the beginning of the war, it was not possible to form tank divisions of the optimal composition, because no one knew what it should be. Therefore, for defensive battles, they decided to use tanks and infantry, cavalry, and artillery together, combining them at a tactical level. Until now, our combat manuals provide for the reinforcement of motorized rifle units with tanks.
  9. -1
    April 9 2019 09: 41
    The name of the Soviet divisions "infantry" also struck the eye - this is something new ...
    And I look forward to the author's substantiation of the thesis that the T-34s allegedly "lost" to the German troika. lol
    1. 0
      April 9 2019 12: 32
      And this is rather an emotional assessment, and not a type of classification.
      1. +1
        April 9 2019 16: 52
        Quote: Zvonarev
        And this is rather an emotional assessment, and not a type of classification.

        Naturally. We had rifle divisions, of course, but in some places I emphasize their immobile and non-tank status as a reminder that they were the domestic equivalent of German infantry divisions.
  10. BAI
    +1
    April 9 2019 09: 45
    The regiment initially consisted of a battalion of light, medium and heavy tanks, and two battalions of light tanks, and included 7 KV, 20 T-34 and 64 T-40 or T-60, and the number of personnel reached 548 people. However, less than a month later, on September 13, 1941, the regiment was significantly reduced - now it consisted of only 67 tanks, including battalions: 7 KV, 22 T-34 and 32 T-40 or T-60.

    The author recalls such exotics as the T-40, of which 960 pieces were released and in December 1941 the production was stopped, but at the same time does not recall anything about the BT-7, which already had a lot, and in particular the 4th tank brigade at formation had:
    46 tanks (there is a version of 56 6 KV, 20 T-34 30 BT-7 tanks).


    And if you look at the mentioned order of the NPO of the USSR No. 057 of January 22, 1942 in relation to the Prokhorov battle, there is not a single point that would not be violated.
    1. +1
      April 9 2019 10: 39
      T-40 released only 709pcs. In September 1941, the release of the T-40 was in full swing, the decision had just been made (based on a letter from Astrov to Stalin) to deploy the release of the tank 030 (the future T-60), which initially was essentially a non-floating T-40 with slightly enhanced armor , and already upon adoption, he received a lower Bogachev case and an octagonal tower, the thickness of the armor increased to 35 mm, weight up to 6,4 tons.
      Therefore, naturally, in the state of August 1941, the T-40 tank was mentioned along with the T-60.
  11. 0
    April 9 2019 10: 04
    Of course, the structure of the tank corps, built before the war, when a significant part of the auxiliary equipment, vehicles, tractors ... had to come from the national economy for mobilization, was initially "beyond our means". The infantry and artillery were doing no better. But the creation of brigades did not solve this problem, the shortage (due to losses) only worsened. But here, the management factor came to the fore, as the author reasonably points out. Since at the beginning of the war the commanders did not learn how to competently manage a large motley "collective farm" (structure) of tank corps, the brigade became the optimal structure. But since the creation of the "collective farm" was not without reasons, namely, for the purpose of better interaction of many, to achieve a common result, then a reverse movement towards the consolidation of tank units was inevitable.
    Wrote the obvious feel
    1. +1
      April 9 2019 10: 26
      I wanted to ask a question, I had the impression that, unlike the Wehrmacht, before the war, we worked poorly between the arms of the service, both between artillery, rifle and tank divisions, and inside the TK between its components. And the fact that in reality we had to re-create it at the lowest level, after we lost most of the tanks and artillery, is this a consequence of these losses or is it still more of a defect in the pre-war period?
      1. 0
        April 9 2019 12: 38
        This is a consequence of the general backwardness in the approach to the formation of the Armed Forces, as well as technological and psychological problems. Well, it was not possible to equip the troops with modern means of communication in the required volume, and many commanders did not need this, they would already chop the enemy with swords with sabers, as in a civilian. You just need to order. In addition, cavalrymen and riflemen had a poor idea of ​​the capabilities of mechanized troops and aviation and were not eager to share future successes with their "competitors."
        1. 0
          April 9 2019 13: 06
          Lack of communication means is the most obvious problem of our Armed Forces in the pre-war period and at the beginning of the war. But by the beginning of the war this was no longer the case.
          "cavalrymen and riflemen had a poor idea of ​​the capabilities of mechanized troops and aviation"
          Well, I do not agree, the experience of dealing with the Basmachi, where one or two T-27 wedges and an airplane decided the result ..
          Tukhachevsky arose out of the blue with his universal mechanization. And S.M.Budenny was not such an equestrian idiologist, as he was described in perestroika times.
          And the Chinese Eastern Railway ... And Khalkin-Gol ... there are generally no tanks or planes ...
          Nevertheless, I think that all this is the unpreparedness of the high command staff to lead essentially different divisions.
          And at the lowest level, this is the inability to negotiate with each other. And only the war made ... and then not immediately ..
          1. 0
            April 9 2019 16: 21
            Quote: volodimer
            And Khalkin-Gol ... there are generally no tanks or planes

            Is that in what sense?
          2. +3
            April 9 2019 17: 38
            Quote: volodimer
            The lack of communications is the most obvious problem of our armed forces in the pre-war period and at the beginning of the war.

            You underestimate the situation.

            There is such a current character in the Ordlo - Cat Moors. He constantly aches in his ZhZshechke that OK, they brought relatively advanced equipment. How to get a l / s to learn to use it, and not bruise for days on end?

            So everything is complicated.
            1. 0
              April 10 2019 11: 16
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              There is such a current character in the Ordlo - Cat Moors. He constantly aches in his ZhZshechke that OK, they brought relatively advanced equipment. How to get a l / s to learn to use it, and not bruise for days on end?

              Uh-huh ... and also, how to get the personnel to remember at least the simplest safety rules when working with internal communication - so that they at least do not tear / destroy the wires and crush the tangents. I still remember his "Saga of tangents" and "How to kill communication with the hands of the crew."
      2. 0
        April 9 2019 13: 18
        The lack of interaction between the armed forces was criticized at a meeting in Moscow following the results of the Winter War. The new drug addict of defense (Tymoshenko) was then tasked with eliminating this.
        As for the "shortage" of tanks in the Red Army, in the most unfavorable period, when our factories were evacuated to the east, but had not yet begun to produce production, there were "only" TWO times more Soviet tanks than in the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front. Before and after that, the number of Soviet tanks, of course, was many times greater than the Germans.
      3. 0
        April 9 2019 16: 04
        Quote: volodimer
        I had the impression that, unlike the Wehrmacht, before the war, we worked poorly between the arms of the service, both between artillery, rifle and tank units, and inside the TK between its components.

        Just do not have time. Co-ordination at the regiment level was planned for August 1941. And the first finished mechanized corps was planned to be received in September - for experimental exercises.
        1. 0
          April 9 2019 17: 42
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Just do not have time. Co-ordination at the regiment level was planned for August 1941. And the first finished mechanized corps was planned to be received in September - for experimental exercises.

          These fateful 3 months remind me of the fateful 5 minutes of Futida.
          1. 0
            April 10 2019 11: 29
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            These fateful 3 months remind me of the fateful 5 minutes of Futida.

            Which were actually equal to at least an hour? wink
            Yes ... a hike in real life, these "three months" would also unfold a year.
            1. 0
              April 10 2019 13: 39
              Quote: Alexey RA
              hike in real life, these "three months" would also unfold a year.

              Yeah, a year. Kiev exercises were held 6 years ago. They showed a more or less picture of a maneuvering war.
              We managed to do a lot, of course, in 6 years. Specifically, they shot the commander of the "blue", the commander of the "red" and the commander of the exercises. We made 29 paper mechcrop.

              For a year, Meretskov’s first thing was to be shot, they almost succeeded. Who else? Shaposhnikova (Stanislav, Vladimir, three Anne)? Headquarters Captain Vasilevsky? Make battleships required.

              People who claim that the same bosses, doing the same things as in real life, did not manage to do something there for three months, always surprising. Moreover, what they managed in the previous two years is known.
              1. 0
                April 10 2019 19: 24
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                Yeah, a year. Kiev exercises were held 6 years ago. They showed a more or less picture of a maneuvering war.

                They showed ballet.
                In essence, the Kiev maneuvers of 1935 had very little in common with a real war, and above all because the entire course of events on them was determined in advance. It was known who, where, when, and with what forces of the “enemy” will face, who and by what time will possess - regardless of one’s own or “opponent's” skills - the upper hand in a particular battle, will reach one or another frontier, etc. The instructions to the mediators meant so: there and then, in front of the advancing mechanized and cavalry regiments, they, the mediators, would need (no matter how the defenders behave) to "show strong artillery, machine gun and rifle fire", at such and such At the turn of the line, the mechanized regiment “will be delayed by artillery fire,” etc. The mediators should not suspend or accelerate the advancement of units depending on the literacy of their actions, but rather ensure that these units maintain a steady maneuver scenario.
                This scenario was brought not only to intermediaries, but also to the participants. Even 18 – 22 August 1935, the commanders of all units and formations that were taken out on maneuvers (and in corps and divisions and headquarters) could also get acquainted with the area in which they would “fight”, and with the “operation plan”. Therefore, commanders in the Kiev maneuvers were not required, therefore, what was primarily required in the war: a quick and correct response to sudden changes in the situation (all of them, we repeat, were known in advance).
                Moreover, the commanders of units and formations did not receive here even the practice of making decisions in combat (albeit known in advance) the situation, and their headquarters did not practice the working out of combat documents. To take all the decisions, to make all the documents they were obliged, again, in advance, one or two weeks before the start of the maneuvers. Prepared documentation was carefully checked at the district headquarters, and if errors were found, they were forced to redo it. In the course of the maneuvers, all the combat documentation for the headquarters of the formations in essence had only to be written off from the finished text.

                And, judging by the teachings of the KVO and BVI of 1936, at the slightest deviation from the scenario of exercises, the participants immediately followed epic failure - how did this happen with the 1st ttbr:
                T-28s from the 1st BVO tank brigade "suddenly" (!) Found themselves in front of a strip of tank traps and gouges and were forced to turn sharply to the side - to a not yet explored area of ​​the terrain, where they got stuck.

                No conclusions were made, and another 4 years, until 1940, the Red Army continued the same training of l / s, which led to the results shown in the maneuvers. The real study began in fact only under Tymoshenko - following the results of the Polish campaign and the Special Forces Federation. The result for the same call is known:
                "Over the past 4 months, the District carried out the following activities to prepare the top command staff and staffs:" (blah blah blah two-page list of events) and the following phrase crowns all this:
                "As a result of all these activities, the operational training of senior command personnel has grown significantly and is rated mediocre."
                © Ulanov
                1. +2
                  April 10 2019 20: 55
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  No conclusions were made, and another 4 years, until 1940, the Red Army continued the same preparation

                  Ugums.
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  They showed ballet.

                  However, this ballet, if you want to see, showed everything that was required. That there is nothing at all for the implementation of the idea of ​​"deep operations", "mobile defense", anything requiring mobility. First of all, there are no people. To move a division by, say, 100 kilometers per day in peacetime in one's own district is a task of incredible complexity, which no dog knows how to solve.

                  However, the PSU went on.
  12. 0
    April 9 2019 10: 20
    According to the number of state brigades in August 1941, everything is correct, 3268 hours. It has a full three-battalion motorized rifle regiment. One of the sources according to the BTV staff structure is the Tank Front website. There is some confusion in his information. In one article, a staff with a regimental structure of motorized infantry and a changed staff of the TBR from 13.09.1941/709/1871 is assembled, where a motorized rifle battalion of XNUMX people was introduced instead of the SME, the total number of brigade for this state is XNUMX hours.
    By order No. 0063 of 12.08.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX, the structure of the brigade is as follows

    STATE OF A SEPARATE TANK TEAM
    I. Organization
    1. Management team
    2. Company management
    3. Reconnaissance company
    4. Tank Regiment
    5. Motorized Rifle Regiment
    6. Anti-tank division
    7. Anti-aircraft division
    8. Motor transport company
    9. Repair company
    10. Sanitary platoon
    II. Personnel - 3268

    The reasons for the state change with the exception of SMEs are elementary; Andrei, in principle, identified them:
    Lack of human resources;
    -lack of vehicles.
    I will add:
    ORDER FOR THE FORMATION OF SEPARATE TANK TEAMS
    No. 0063 August 12, 1941

    is on the Internet, out of it with the staff is completely clear.
  13. +1
    April 9 2019 10: 43
    The picture shows a rare sample of 34 matches of the 42nd year of release. It stands in Skhodnya, Moscow Region.
  14. 0
    April 9 2019 11: 05
    This is the first time I read about the plans of the Red Army to strike at the Wehrmacht "at the deployment stage." Is it to start a war first, or what? Seriously?
    1. +2
      April 9 2019 11: 26
      Quote: meandr51
      For the first time I read about the plans of the Red Army ... start the war first

      It’s strange. Rezun-Suvorov has already written a collected work about this case. Before him, Goebbels and Ribentrop spoke in great detail about this.

      You can dislike all of the above as much as you like, but the topic is clearly not new.
      1. 0
        April 9 2019 21: 18
        You're right. I simply took these figures out of the picture, bribed by the author’s balanced approach to this point.
    2. 0
      April 9 2019 13: 23
      This refers to a note by Vasilevsky in which he proposed to strike first, for the Wehrmacht concentrated and was about to go on the offensive.
      And this is another stone addressed to the author of the article, whose intelligence "slept" Germany's preparations for war. The author trivially touches upon issues that are unknown to him.
    3. 0
      April 9 2019 16: 05
      Quote: meandr51
      This is the first time I read about the plans of the Red Army to strike at the Wehrmacht "at the deployment stage." Is it to start a war first, or what? Seriously?

      No. According to pre-war plans, deployment was already underway after the outbreak of war - no one expected a strike by a mobilized and deployed army.
      1. +1
        April 9 2019 21: 21
        Or for some reason I didn’t want to see point blank. They flew along the border and saw most of the concentration, reported. But no one at the district headquarters wanted to hear about it.
        1. 0
          April 10 2019 19: 40
          Quote: meandr51
          Or for some reason I didn’t want to see point blank. They flew along the border and saw most of the concentration, reported.

          So it was too late to report. Most of the Wehrmacht’s compounds advanced to the original only a few days before the attack. And with us mobilization with concentration was required for at least a month.
  15. -6
    April 9 2019 11: 53
    Dear Andrey from Chelyabinsk, How long can you try to squeeze a real story under the mossy stamps. And the number of the USSR and German Armed Forces seems to have long been decided, and there is plenty of evidence that Stalin and Co. planned a surprise attack on Germany and its satellites at the beginning of July 1941 for which they began to conduct a secret stage of mobilization of the Armed Forces and the national economy of the USSR immediately after the signing of the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact in 1939, and also pushed for the "liberation" of Western Belarus i.e. the eastern part of Poland, the Baltic states, Finland, Bessarabia, considering Hitler and his intelligence to be the last suckers, as well as the fact that Germany would never dare to fight on two fronts. In addition, the pre-war military doctrine of the USSR implied that the best way to fight is to deliver a sudden crushing blow to the enemy, in which most of the enemy's aircraft are destroyed on the ground, its main sources of oil are destroyed or blocked (in the case of Germany, these are the oil fields of Romania), etc. In accordance with this doctrine, the bulk of the Soviet troops of the first strategic echelon and most of the weapons, material reserves, etc. were concentrated at the very border where all this was lost or captured by the Germans in the first hours and days of the war. Let us also take into account Zhukov's orders not to give in. on provocations and not to open fire without his highest command, as well as his and Timoshenko's idiotic directives from number one to number three about counterattacks, composed without knowledge of the situation, the state of their troops and enemy troops, and we will get an oil painting.
    And then after that compare T34 and other Soviet tanks with German ones? Naturally, the T34 without fuel and projectiles are much weaker than the T3 in which all this is available, just as there are in the presence of sources of replenishment of both.
    Yes, those Soviet tankers who survived with their tanks after the first raids of German aviation and artillery often fought as best they could. But the ammunition and the fuel supply of the tank are very limited. Tankers often had no choice but to blow up their tanks (if there was what and when) or simply to drop them when both the ammunition and the fuel run out.
    You can write about this for a long time and much, but why? There is a truth affirmed at the top once and for all: the enemy was cunning, the kovare, much stronger and more experienced than the weak and naive Red Army, and therefore it turned out how it happened. And any attempt to prove that this is not true, but bullshit, is perceived as an attempt to destroy the spiritual bond that the thieves are trying to cherish and exploit the thieves in all echelons of power, which tidied up all the power and all the resources in the country.
    And here we are wondering why everything went and goes like that awry. We are looking for traitors under the bed, then saboteurs, then some scapegoats. It may still not be necessary to be donkeys, then you do not have to look for goats.
    1. 0
      April 9 2019 12: 38
      Quote: gregor6549
      And with the strength of the Armed Forces of the USSR and Germany, it seems that they have long been defined, and there is plenty of evidence that Stalin and Co. planned a surprise attack on Germany and its satellites in early July 1941.

      Another victim of Rezun & Co. ....
      No one had planned any surprise attack. The plan of the war (before 1941 d) was based on the fact that, while simultaneously declaring a general mobilization, the Germans had time to deploy the troops on the border first and the strategic initiative automatically switched to them (they had less distances, railway more)
      Therefore, it was intended to keep the troops of the border districts in a high degree of combat readiness (manned personnel to 80-100%) in order to be able to strike at the centering Germans, to thwart their deployment and thereby gain time to complete our own deployment.
      This plan almost completely copied (in spirit, meaning, the detailing was different there, of course) the military plans of the Russian Empire, which it implemented (the advance of Samsonov and Rennenkampf’s armies into East Prussia)
      1. -1
        April 9 2019 13: 25
        The war plan (until 1941) was based on
        (smiling maliciously): Do me a favor - present this war plan to the public - and we ourselves will honor it and try to understand what it was based on ...
        1. 0
          April 9 2019 15: 43
          Quote: Falstaff
          (smiling maliciously): Do me a favor - present this plan of war to the public

          Answered above
      2. 0
        April 9 2019 15: 52
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Therefore, it was supposed to keep the troops of the border districts in a high degree of combat readiness (staffing l / s. Up to 80-100%) in order to be able to strike focusing Germans


        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        This plan is almost completely copied


        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        offensive in East Prussia


        But ...

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        No one planned a surprise attack


        Completely consistent statements)
        1. +1
          April 9 2019 15: 54
          Quote: Town Hall
          Completely consistent statements)

          Totally consistent, yes. The Town Hall, even then, the whole world knew that, in fact, the war does not start from the moment the state frontier crosses the enemy, but from the announcement of general mobilization. It is a pity that you do not know this now.
          1. 0
            April 9 2019 15: 59
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            but with the announcement of universal mobilization


            I hesitate to ask .... What date did Germany announce the general mobilization of 40 in May or 39 in September?

            PySy. And what would be wrong if Comrade Stalin showed farsightedness and hit the monster of the human race Comrade Hitler, saving the country and people from the horrors of 41-45 ?.
            1. 0
              April 9 2019 16: 16
              Quote: Town Hall
              I hesitate to ask .... What date did Germany announce the general mobilization of 40 in May or 39 in September?

              You know the answer yourself, and at the same time you know that the USSR could not declare general mobilization in response - Germany was not going to fight with it.
              Quote: Town Hall
              PySy. And what would be so bad if it were Comrade Stalin?

              This is when, for example? :))) Did we have to rush to save Poland? Or France? Refine your idea
              1. 0
                April 9 2019 16: 32
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                You know the answer yourself


                I know of course. No general mobilization was announced in any of these cases. So this is only your theory.

                I also know that in order to forestall and prevent the Germans, it means starting all the activities BEFORE them. And this, according to your theory, is the declaration of war. And cover plans, according to your own words from the previous post, were precisely what was envisaged.
                1. 0
                  April 9 2019 16: 55
                  Quote: Town Hall
                  I know of course. No general mobilization was announced in any of these cases. So this is only your theory.

                  So you do not know.
              2. +2
                April 9 2019 16: 40
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Specify your idea


                My idea is simple. The plans were and they envisaged just the first blow. This is normal and justified from all points of view. Like Israel, the 67th year.

                Unfortunately, the agitprom sat in the subcortex with its justification for the 41-year catastrophe and howl about the exceptionally peace-loving USSR. Therefore, all the time, followers fall into this logical impasse.
                1. 0
                  April 9 2019 16: 55
                  Quote: Town Hall
                  My idea is simple. Plans were and they provided exactly the first blow.

                  Alas, there are no plans for the first strike :))) However, this clearly does not bother you. If some facts do not fit into the theory - well, they are these facts :))))
                  1. +1
                    April 9 2019 17: 19
                    "Considerations ..." by Shaposhnikov, Meretskov, Zhukov are, of course, lectures, but they show the basic principles of the first operations of the war correctly.
                    Simply, for some reason, everyone believes that aggression begins with crossing the border, but this is not so. Under normal conditions, the beginning of the war is mobilization, in the abnormal (Germany has been fighting for a long time, so there are other signs of preparing an attack) the transfer of troops, primarily mobile units, to the border.
                    1. +1
                      April 9 2019 18: 58
                      Quote: strannik1985
                      Under normal conditions, the beginning of the war is mobilization, in abnormal (Germany has been fighting for a long time, therefore, there are signs of preparation for an attack) transfer of troops, first of all mobile units, to the border.

                      That's right, and it's amazing how few people understand it.
                2. +3
                  April 9 2019 22: 01
                  Quote: Town Hall

                  Unfortunately, agitprom with

                  Did not try to be treated?
                  To clean the crusts, blood vessels, wash glasses there ...
                  Yes
              3. 0
                April 9 2019 17: 47
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Specify your idea

                Comrade Churchill, to whom you repeatedly sent me, proposed on an initiative basis to save Yugoslavia from Romania through Romania from the Nazis. So to speak, open a second front.
                Will fit?
                1. 0
                  April 9 2019 19: 00
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Will fit?

                  Not at all from this opera
                  1. -1
                    April 9 2019 19: 08
                    I knew that Churchill did not need to read)))

                    It's about his ideas of the 41st year, and not the 43rd, if that.
                    1. 0
                      April 10 2019 17: 23
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      ak and knew that Churchill did not need to read)))

                      I do not see there is anything in common with the issue under discussion. If you see - OK, explain more specifically what you mean and how it relates to the discussion. Maybe I forgot something, who knows?
                      1. 0
                        April 10 2019 17: 43
                        Empty.

                        In any case, Churchill’s ideas have nothing to do with Comrade Stalin’s and company’s activities.
      3. +1
        April 9 2019 16: 08
        Who and whose victim still needs to be figured out. I think that the victims first of all were the peoples of the former republics of the USSR, who are still not allowed to know the true and not invented history and who are still held for idiots. That is why most of the tales begin with the fact that the Germans gathered innumerable forces, attacked the USSR treacherously and suddenly, and that is why the initial period of the war was what it was. Sometimes, separate plans and orders are published that do not help in any way to understand how the Red Army managed to catch it by surprise and where the Red Army intelligence was looking. These tales were first voiced by I. Stalin and then replicated by Zhukov and other "writers". The problem is that these tales are in no way consistent with the memories of hundreds and thousands of front-line soldiers and, moreover, completely ignore what Stalin and many commanders of the Red Army wrote and said long before the war.
        Speaking of the bird, i.e. about Rezun. Yes, he changed the oath, fled for the cordon and was sentenced by the Soviet court, which, as we know, was the most humane court in the world, to the death penalty. But this should not overshadow what he did in terms of exploring the real, and not invented history.
        Yes, his "creations" are replete with inaccuracies in assessing the technology of the belligerent countries and other roughnesses, but this is all secondary. The main thing is that, to the best of his ability and because of his knowledge, he built a logical chain of evidence of Stalin's intentions to expand the borders of the USSR "at the very least" and backed up this evidence with references to documents, eyewitness accounts, etc.
        By the way, after Rezun, a number of Soviet military and political figures (General Kalugin, Gorbachev Yeltsin, and others) committed far greater crimes against the Soviet people and no one tried or condemned them.
        And hardly any of us saw the materials of Rezun's case and how objective the trial was now is difficult to say. And they took up on Rezun, as I understand it, not so much because of his escape (dozens of people like him fled) but because he dared to speak across the official party line, and did not hesitate with it. This and also the attempt on the "authority" of official historians such as Garev, Volkogonov, etc. could not forgive him
        Further. The leadership of the Red Army not only did not copy the experience of World War I, which was mainly positional (with the exception of Samsonov's offensive), but planned to act exactly "exactly the opposite." Those. divide mobilization into a secret one that ensures the overwhelming advantage of the Red Army over the enemy in manpower and equipment during the first and surprise strikes and open for the development of the success of the first strikes, replenishing the losses of the Red Army in manpower and equipment, etc.
        It should be noted that these plans were magnificent and were fulfilled exactly ..... but only until June 22. And on June 22, everything went not according to the plans of the Red Army, but according to the plans of the Wehrmacht. And what does Rezun have to do with it? Or it undermines the patriotic spirit of Russians. In my opinion, this spirit is more undermined by the official lie issued for so many years as history and rewritten from time to time to please the next "ruler of thoughts and guarantor."
        Somehow I happened to be present at the Zapad 81 exercises, at which the air defense units and formations of the SV were very seriously screwed up. during a massive raid of a simulated enemy on a dry position. troops "lay down" the transmission of radar data from the subordinate data to the command post of the Front's air defense. True, the authorities quickly figured out what to do and instead of marks of real planes, simulated targets were poured onto the screens of the Front's air defense command post. When, during the debriefing, someone tried to blather about this noodles on the ears of the Army General Comrade Varennikov, who was in charge of the exercises, he soared and said that no one was going to wait until an adversary would come flying in and a preemptive blow would be struck at him (on the adversary) so that don't have to. Those. the doctrine of a preemptive strike, developed back in the 30s, was still alive after a decade after the end of the Second World War. She is still alive. And this doctrine perfectly agrees with the calls of "hurray for the patriots" to hit the damned and striped "amers" first, otherwise they will come and take everything from us. Those. history repeats itself and it is possible that someone will come to mind to press the "red button" first. The problem is that after that there will be neither the first nor the second.
        And I do not need to scare. I'm already pretty old and pretty scared.
        1. 0
          April 9 2019 16: 46
          Grigory, your speech shows you with a choker, which is infinitely far from the question that is being taken to discuss. Do you have a word - a masterpiece.
          Quote: gregor6549
          That is why the majority of fairy tales begin with the fact that the Germans gathered innumerable forces, attacked the USSR treacherously and suddenly, and therefore the initial period of the war was as it was.

          There is evidence of the actual number of the Wehrmacht and the Red Army at the beginning of the Second World War, and the Wehrmacht is not assessed according to domestic but German sources, such as Mueller-Hillebrand or Tippelskirch or Halder, for example. And on them the Wehrmacht concentrated superior forces, roughly, if we take the fighters without auxiliary troops (builders, railway workers, etc.), then 2,5 million from the Germans and 1,8 million from us, if with auxiliary, then for us it is even worse. Despite the fact that other countries fought on the side of the Wehrmacht.
          And so - for your every statement. From the information provided by intelligence it is EXCELLENTly clear why we missed the concentration of Germans on our borders. But you did not read them. You read only Rezun
          Quote: gregor6549
          The problem is that these tales are not consistent with the memories of hundreds and thousands of war veterans

          Which you have never read. Otherwise they would not say that.
          Quote: gregor6549
          The main thing is that, to the best of his ability and because of his knowledge, he built a logical chain of evidence of Stalin's intentions to expand the borders of the USSR "at the very least" and backed up this evidence with references to documents, eyewitness accounts, etc.

          no, he didn’t prove and didn’t support it, because his theses are ridiculous for anyone who read CAM Soviet prewar documents. The Rezun conspiracy completely contradicts not only the available Soviet documents but also the opinion of the German military leaders.
          For example, Rezun claims that we were preparing the troops of the border districts for an offensive on the eve of the war. But Manstein, for a moment, the best general staff officer of the Third Reich for some reason claims that the Red Army in June 1941 g was NOT deployed for the offensive for sure.
          But you don't know that. You haven't even mastered Lost Victories. What has always saddened me about rezunists is a complete rejection of critical perception of his works and an absolute unwillingness to get acquainted AT LEAST with German sources on the Second World War. Read Halder's diaries, Mueller-Hillebrand's studies, the memoirs of Magnstein, Tippelskirch, etc. and so on .... I am already silent about reading Soviet documents of those years on my own.
          Quote: gregor6549
          And I do not need to scare.

          Also a persecution mania ...
      4. 0
        April 9 2019 16: 49
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        No one planned a surprise attack.

        and why then 2 tank divisions camped at the very border .. well, in winter, so the height of summer ... bully And in general - the deployment of the TK before the start of the war is well known ... it was not V. Suvorov who invented it, he used it .... request
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        the military plans of the Russian Empire, which she put into practice

        namely, and only during the Soviet Union it was considered a meaningless rout request
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        in order to be able to strike at the focusing Germans, thwart their deployment and thereby gain time to complete our own deployment.

        and how is this different from the icebreaker? details and motives bully
        1. +2
          April 9 2019 17: 10
          Quote: ser56
          and why then 2 armored divisions camped at the very border ..

          There is a rather original opinion that our troops were preparing for the invasion of Great Britain (they even sewed trunks and T-shirts), and Hitler wanted to go through the USSR to Iran. But the bastard Rudy Hess all vulgarized. crying
          1. -1
            April 9 2019 17: 28
            Quote: Mordvin 3
            that our troops were preparing for an invasion of Britain

            along the bottom of the Channel? bully
            1. +1
              April 9 2019 17: 31
              Quote: ser56
              along the bottom of the Channel?

              It seems to be ridiculous, but that’s why the MO ordered one hundred thousand greenhouses for the 40 year, it’s not entirely clear.
              1. 0
                April 9 2019 21: 28
                Invoice to the studio!
                1. +1
                  April 9 2019 22: 05
                  Quote: meandr51
                  Invoice to the studio!

                  Scha, scattered. About this, even Beria did not know. Aif wrote about this.
        2. 0
          April 9 2019 19: 05
          Quote: ser56
          and why then 2 tank divisions settled down a camp at the very border .. well, well in the winter, so the height of summer ... bully . request

          Did you watch this dislocation? Or so, according to Rezun? :))))
          First echelon - (0-50 km from the border) - 53 rifle divisions, 3 cavalry divisions and 2 brigades - approximately 684, 4 thousand people.
          Second echelon - (50-100 km from the state border) - 13 rifle, 3 cavalry, 24 tank and 12 motorized divisions - approximately 491,8 thous.
          The third echelon was located at a distance from 100 to 400 and more than a km from the state border - 37 rifle, 1 cavalry, 16 tank, 8 motorized divisions - approximately 665 thousand people.
          Is it a concentration of forces for a dash to the West? laughing
          Quote: ser56
          and how is this different from Icebreaker? details and motifs bully

          really. What is the difference between a limited offensive in order to gain time for the mobilization and deployment of troops, and megalomaniac plans to seize Europe? Details and motives. Can not argue with that laughing
        3. +1
          April 9 2019 19: 07
          Quote: ser56
          and why then 2 tank divisions camped at the very border .. well, in winter, so the height of summer ...

          The deployment of divisions in the reunited territories was determined not by tactical or operational considerations, but by the presence of a barracks fund. The 22nd Panzer Division of the 14th MK, based in Brest, the rest of the divisions were envious of black envy - this division had a specialized military camp! And they had to place personnel in peasant houses and outbuildings. Units of one of the divisions, for example, were scattered within a radius of 50 km from headquarters. And another motorized rifle battalion lodged in prison.
          1. -2
            April 10 2019 12: 28
            Quote: Alexey RA
            and the presence of a barracks fund.

            in winter - yes, but in summer?
            1. 0
              April 10 2019 19: 49
              Quote: ser56
              in winter - yes, but in summer?

              Do you propose to bring the division to summer camps? So her landfill is located next to the PPD. And other formations were also jealous of this, because there was a big problem with the polygons in the call center. Even the best 6 MK:
              "Military unit 9325 - the existing polygon (Green) is not equipped with a sufficient number of dugouts and devices for firing at moving targets.
              Military unit 8995 - the units do not have training grounds, shooting ranges and training fields, since all the land adjacent to the location of the units belongs to the peasants and is occupied by crops ... Plots of land for shooting ranges and training fields have not yet been assigned to the units. Materials on the issue of securing areas are presented. "
              Military units numbered 8995 and 9325 are the 4th and 7th tank divisions of the 6th mechanized corps of Major General Khatskilevich.
              © Ulanov / Shein
              In addition, leaving for summer camps does not solve the problem of sites and boxes with stored equipment and ammunition and fuel storage facilities. Because the division cannot raise reserves on its own, and in addition, the consumption of engine hours of the 1st category equipment, except on the final exercises, is prohibited by order.
              1. -2
                April 11 2019 12: 46
                Quote: Alexey RA
                except on the final exercises, prohibited by order.

                this is a serious reason for peacetime ... bully
                be surprised, but such a level of the problems you bring up speaks only about one thing - the desire to drown the essence of the problem in detail ... hi But the point is that a well-armed and equipped personnel Red Army was defeated in 2 months and lost mountains of weapons ... And no one is to blame ... request
        4. +1
          April 9 2019 20: 35
          Probably because in Brest (22 TD) there were premises for barracks, classes and other infrastructure?
    2. 0
      April 9 2019 12: 41
      Do you consider the scribble rezun proof?
      1. -1
        April 9 2019 17: 29
        Quote: yehat
        do you consider scribble rezun proof?

        if you are talking about V. Suvorov, it’s funny that a whole bunch of anti-resistanceists are fighting against one ... grain work ... bully
        1. -1
          April 10 2019 09: 31
          why fight with insignificance? he deserves nothing more than contempt. A liar, a traitor, a fraud, etc. Who can be of interest to him, except for the prosecutor?
    3. +2
      April 9 2019 12: 56
      [quote = gregor6549] and there is plenty of evidence that Stalin and Co. planned a surprise attack on Germany and its satellites at the beginning of July 1941 [/ Quote]

      If you are not joking, then you are on another site, here the people are serious and do not forgive such nonsense.
      1. 0
        April 9 2019 16: 11
        Well, now I have been sentenced. How to live then?
        1. +2
          April 9 2019 21: 51
          And you go and shoot yourself ...
          lol
      2. 0
        April 9 2019 17: 32
        provide at least one such evidence
        in the USSR, in 41 the army was completely unprepared, all kinds of troops underwent large-scale reform. Even if they wanted to attack, nothing would have happened.
    4. +1
      April 9 2019 16: 51
      Lively residentist! laughing
      Quote: gregor6549
      and there is plenty of evidence that Stalin and Co. planned a surprise attack on Germany and its satellites in early July 1941

      Yeah ... Comrade Stalin famously conceived. There are no tank troops (in the reports of MK commanders for March-April 1941, even according to the 1940 MK formation, one third of the divisions were declared as not operational; the first combat-ready MK was scheduled for September 1941). Air Force - no (reorganization of the rear + rearmament of regiments). There is no fuel. The rear is not equipped (reserves of the border districts are stored mostly in the central districts). But we will advance.
      Quote: gregor6549
      why they began to conduct a secret stage of mobilization of the armed forces and the national economy

      Sure sure. Hidden mobilization, the terms of which are agreed with the directors of enterprises and collective farms. And along which divisions appear in the border districts with a double set of privates and sergeants in combat units, but with the same number of commanders, rear and transport. Oh yes, hidden mobilization without a call from a citizen of transport and traction.
      Charges it were. Regular fees.
      Here's what a real hidden mobilization looks like:
      In total, the control units of 22 infantry, 5 cavalry and 3 tank corps, 98 infantry and 14 cavalry divisions, 28 tank, 3 motorized rifle-machine gun and 1 airborne brigades took part. 2 people were called up who, on September 610, 136, by decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR and Order of the People's Commissar of Defense No. 22 of September 1939, were declared mobilized "until further notice." The troops also received 177 thousand horses, 23 vehicles and 634 tractors.

      Quote: gregor6549
      In accordance with this doctrine, the bulk of the Soviet troops of the first strategic echelon and most of the weapons, stockpiles, etc., were concentrated at the very border where it all died or was captured by the Germans in the first hours and days of the war

      Yeah ... the Germans were particularly good at capturing the stockpile of the ZOV fuel, which was stored in Maykop. smile
      Read the docks. The largest warehouses of the border districts were located not just beyond the line of the old border, but in the deep rear areas of the districts, near the borders with the internal districts.
      1. 0
        April 10 2019 09: 36
        All the logic of Suvorov is visible in a simple example. The border guards set the sentry. According to the headquarters, it’s a sentry. According to Suvorov, he is an aggressively-minded attacker who simply expects the opportunity to deftly attack and did not attack just because he did not see the opportunity or did not have time to bluntly.
  16. +1
    April 9 2019 12: 54
    MK offensive machine. And if we had MK (though with a different OSh) in the Moscow battle, the Wehrmacht would be very shitty.
    But the brigades in the SK in the offensive units are given SD to break through the main lane, and as a solid formation only to defeat the enemy’s corps reserves, and not deeper.

    On the defensive as a strike group (attached units) for counterattacks of the joint venture and counter-attacks of the SD.
    And since we lost them as a result of the reorganization (all went to MK), this dramatically affected the combat effectiveness of the IC.

    And if they were originally., So the Goodarian would not have been impudent, breaking away from the main group. And in Belarus, among the forests and swamps, it was possible to catch enemy columns (sometimes it happened by the way). And so almost all BT equipment was killed in a clumsy MK.
    The most annoying thing is that there were enough tanks for both MK and TBR SK, if they brought the OShS MK into line, and did not start the formation of another 21 MK ..
    1. +1
      April 9 2019 13: 30
      I don’t think so. MK were still bulky. But the motorized divisions that they began to form before the war, and then abandoned them - that’s it. In principle, they are approximately similar to German tank divisions.
      Well, plus, tank battalions in infantry divisions, here I agree with you.
      1. 0
        April 9 2019 14: 09
        Quote: Falstaff
        I don’t think so. MK were still bulky. But the motorized divisions that they began to form before the war,


        MK-40 certainly. I already wrote that in the fall of 1940 it was necessary to pull one MK to the landfill. And "drive" to blue in the face with conclusions. And when changing (and this, as the future has shown), the OShS TP (three battalion and with 3 tanks in platoons) TP "dries up to 94 tanks, and MK to 600 (and this is taking into account 120-130 combat support tanks). It is already very manageable. ...
        MK became necessary as soon as we began to advance, and already 1942 revived.

        And one more thing to consider, our formations during the war almost always did not correspond to the indicated rank (they were smaller, and sometimes significantly).
        .
        1. +1
          April 9 2019 14: 47
          I agree.
          We defined the structure, and then created it. Incidentally, it was Stalin who proposed creating a tank formation and so that it had 1000 tanks.
          And in Germany, Guderian drove a soldier at a training ground with signs indicating a tank, a tank platoon, etc. I tested this, then thought, then experimented again at the training ground, and so, gradually, we got to the SUBSTANTIATION, why for the use of tanks we need such an OSh as a tank division and which units and subunits should be included there. Hence the results: Poland, France ...
          1. +1
            April 9 2019 19: 37
            Quote: Falstaff
            We defined the structure, and then created it. Incidentally, it was Stalin who proposed creating a tank formation and so that it had 1000 tanks.


            Well, the military theory was developed (and, say, it was not bad enough), and we copied with the warring neighbors, as it always did. And much better than the French and Britons. Understanding was and, in principle, felt. It was another matter to test, I have the feeling that there wasn’t even a normal vocational school (the most stupid structure in TP).

            During the war, TA reached 1000 tanks, and they showed their effectiveness. Of course, this was already another army. And a small clarification - MK is not a connection, but a union.
            1. 0
              April 9 2019 20: 14
              In general, I think that the theory of building tank troops in the USSR was the best, because provided for both NPP tanks for a breakthrough of defense, and tank formations (and then associations) for the development of a breakthrough.
              As for TA, in fact, during the war, they, in my opinion, never reached the full-time staff. Of course, TA was a further development of MK a la 1941.
              In terminology. Unions are an army. The case is still a connection.
              "mechanized corps - an independent operational unit" (The Great Soviet Encyclopedia: in 30 vols. / Ch. Ed. A. M. Prokhorov. - 3rd ed. - M.: Sov. Encyclopedia, 1969 - 1978.).
              1. 0
                April 9 2019 20: 40
                Quote: Falstaff
                The case is still a connection.


                The subtlety of the corps containing the compound-division is the essence of the union.
                A corps containing brigades (parts) compound.
                MK is an association of three divisions.
                TC is part of a TA team consisting of brigades.
                And a brigade can be a unit if it includes shelves (up to two).
                1. 0
                  April 9 2019 20: 46
                  The rifle corps of the Red Army consisted of divisions and was a compound. The corps is the highest type of connection - according to Soviet military terminology.
                  1. 0
                    April 10 2019 09: 38
                    Quote: Falstaff
                    The housing is the highest type of connection


                    There is no such terminology. There is a battalion-main, regiment-most important, a higher-tactical formation division. Corps is an operational formation, the Army is the highest operational. The front is strategic. So that the corps and the army are operational associations. The front (army group) is a strategic association, and there is still a strategic direction.

                    Quote: Falstaff
                    The use of mechanized units in modern offensive operations and the introduction of a mechanized corps into a breakthrough


                    Even here, separation-compounds in the composition are felt.
                    1. 0
                      April 10 2019 11: 55
                      There is no such terminology.
                      This means that you and I studied at different military schools. I studied Soviet military art, according to which the division is the BASIC type of tactical formation and the corps is the HIGHEST type of tactical formation. But terms such as "army corps","corps - operational association"- this is from the terminology of the NATO countries, which has nothing to do with the Red Army.
                      I confirmed my words with links - but what about you?
                      hi
                      1. 0
                        April 10 2019 14: 50
                        A number of your comments suggest that you were not an excellent student and even walked or slept something safely. laughing
            2. 0
              April 9 2019 21: 00
              Here's another:
              Use of mechanized compounds in modern offensive operations and the introduction of a mechanized corps into a breakthrough
              Report of the Commander of the Western Special Military District Colonel-General of Tank Forces D. G. PAVLOVA
          2. 0
            April 10 2019 09: 42
            Quote: Falstaff
            Incidentally, it was Stalin who proposed creating a tank formation and to have 1000 tanks in it. And in Germany, Guderian drove a soldier at a training ground with signs designating a tank, a tank platoon

            First, study Stalin. He was a cautious person and never did such nonsense.
            Secondly, you forgot to say about Guderian year. The events that you describe took place when many of them had French ft-17 as their peak of excellence, and we had the MS-1 in service.
            And if you read his memoirs, he said there that for the sake of showing off he would not spend a mark, preferring to spend money on business - there were very few resources for training.
        2. +1
          April 9 2019 14: 49
          MK-40 certainly. I already wrote that in the fall of 1940 it was necessary to pull one MK to the landfill. And "drive" to blue in the face with conclusions.

          Here the humor is that the shopping malls were run in the 39th in Poland, they were convinced that they were bulky ... and they created even more bulky MKs.
        3. 0
          April 10 2019 11: 35
          Quote: chenia
          I already wrote that in the fall of 1940 it was necessary to pull one MK to the landfill. And "drive" to blue in the face with conclusions.

          There is no one to pull. Until September 1941, not a single staffed and coordinated mechanized corps of the Red Army was planned. And it makes no sense to drive a hastily put together MK on a non-standard materiel, and even with an understaffed staff - these exercises will show nothing in terms of how the full-time MK should work.
          1. 0
            April 10 2019 14: 52
            why then did Pavlov arrange 300 km marches in June 41?
    2. 0
      April 9 2019 19: 16
      Quote: chenia
      MK offensive machine.

      And defense too. That very active defense, when the enemy's tank wedges that have broken through are cut off by the blow of the mechanized connections from the "corner posts". And in which the mobile tank "fire brigade" behind the front line has time to all the threatened places.
      Quote: chenia
      And if they were originally., So the Goodarian would not have been impudent, breaking away from the main group. And in Belarus, among the forests and swamps, it was possible to catch enemy columns (sometimes it happened by the way).

      It's not about the OSH. It’s the commanders. The Wunderwaffe team itself is not - it still needs to be able to apply. Everyone knows about 4 select Katukov
      ... the brigade took the path of firmly fulfilling the constitutional requirements both in relation to the organization of intelligence and in relation to the organization of defense itself. The defense was resilient by [creating] tank firing points both in front and in depth. Moreover, the firing points were nomadic, which did not decipher the defense. In short, the organization of defense was carried out strictly according to the charter

      And who remembers the 11th Ottr who fought next to her?
      For the operation near Mtsensk, a tank detachment consisting of 11 T-34 tanks, 4 KV tanks, 10 T-26 tanks and a company of a motorized rifle battalion under the command of the commander of the tank regiment Major K ... was allocated
      Major K., upon arriving at the command post, was unable to report anything about the actions of his detachment, since before the battle he had lost all the T-26, KV and motorized rifle companies and only T-34 participated in the battle, and then they left the battle individually only 6 T-34 tanks, and one T-34 tank was abandoned by the crew for lack of fuel, no measures were taken to evacuate this tank from the assistant technician Major P. and the tank was lost
      1. -1
        April 10 2019 12: 31
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Major K.

        why without a name, the country should know the heroes ...
  17. 0
    April 9 2019 13: 53
    The author writes: " 3. Worst headquarters training and the personnel of the Red Army, less combat experience in comparison with the Wehrmacht, weak communications, extremely difficult to control the troops. "
    War is a serious matter, where top management plays a paramount role, so this item should be put in the first place, and not in third. True, this does not contribute to today's admiration of the then commander in chief.
    1. +1
      April 10 2019 14: 57
      here about combat experience I would argue
      they simply did not implement it. Notes from Spain, from Finland, from China basically just disappeared into tuna.
      And some lovers seek the truth and put in prison.
  18. 0
    April 9 2019 15: 57
    By the end of the 1942 year in the Red Army and in the USSR, all previously committed errors were thoroughly studied. In many ways, the Germans themselves helped the USSR in this. It turned out that there were enough diligent students in the USSR who, albeit belatedly, had also studied their shortcomings and the experience of the Germans, whose mobile units had been quite successful at the front in the 1941-1942's. The quality of Soviet tanks became better. There are more radio stations and so on. etc.
  19. +2
    April 9 2019 16: 09
    "The worst training of the headquarters and personnel of the Red Army,"
    25 again bully are ordinary soldiers or lieutenants / captains guilty of defeat ... can be more honest - the command of the Red Army, above all the highest? You yourself write it below ... request But again, the main culprits are behind the brackets - this in itself did not turn out to be plans, intelligence did not report ... am
    1. +1
      April 9 2019 19: 20
      Quote: ser56
      it's ordinary soldiers or lieutenants / captains to blame for the defeat ...

      And they too. You read orders of 1941 in the SBD: personnel from group and group weapons do not fire, infantry do not go after tanks, battalions request corps calibers for groups of soldiers or individual enemy soldiers, battalion mortars and cannons do not fire. In 1942, in order to form an assault group from fighters of the battalion for the destruction of one bunker, intervention was required, EMNIP, a student at the General Staff Academy.
      Not a general in a couple of months brought to the rust in the barrel 30% of the rifles in the best division of KOVO. And not only the generals did not learn the Charter and did not know what to do in standard situations.
      1. -2
        April 10 2019 12: 37
        Quote: Alexey RA
        You read the orders of 1941 in the SBD: personnel from personal and group weapons do not lead fire

        like in RIA it was different, before its collapse ... Why? after all, many non-members of the RIA became Red Army generals? wasn’t the horse feed? bully
        Quote: Alexey RA
        And not only the generals did not learn the Charter and did not know what to do in standard situations.

        I’ll answer the commonplace - the army is a vertical structure and in it the command is responsible for everything! hi If the selection of personnel was on the principle of fidelity to the Party, then the result corresponding to Brody - 3000 tanks was not enough against 700 request And those who could be taught were kicked out of the Red Army in 1930 by Operation Vesna, they finished off the discipline in 37-38 ... At the same time, no one is to blame for you - a mess in itself ... request so to speak, the natural state of Russia bully
    2. 0
      April 12 2019 13: 00
      the main culprit is the lagging economy after 17 years, the devastation after the war and civil war, international isolation (non-repayment of Entente loans). And the rest is a consequence. Many people who were objectively mistaken could not do anything better. The same Pavlov was a commander no worse than Konev and both mowed down strongly (rout of the ZVO, Rzhev), but they shot one of them and the second marshal of victory.
      The assessment is very ambiguous - we are often mistaken in not understanding the realities of that time.
      our radio stations are scolding on airplanes - it’s a miracle that they simply were!
  20. +3
    April 9 2019 16: 25
    Quote: gregor6549
    Both the size of the Armed Forces of the USSR and Germany seem to have long been decided, and there is plenty of evidence that Stalin and Co. planned a surprise attack on Germany and its satellites in early July 1941, for which they began to conduct a secret stage of mobilization of the Armed Forces and the national economy of the USSR immediately after the signing of the Ribbentrop Molotov Pact in 1939

    You would have bothered to find documentary justification for these arguments, except for books like "Icebreaker". At least read the reports on the plans and capabilities of the USSR from the German and Japanese intelligence services. And finally, read what problems the country solved after Khalkhin Gol. Sobering up will come quickly.
  21. BAI
    0
    April 9 2019 20: 55
    In fact, considering the use of the T-34 from all sides, the author did not consider one side - infrastructure. Those. maintainability, spare parts, fuel (there are allegations that the T-34 could go on crude oil), etc. And without all this, not a single tank can fight, as without a crew, the preparation of which the author mentioned only in passing
  22. 0
    April 9 2019 20: 57
    Quote: ser56
    25 again, are ordinary soldiers or lieutenants / captains to blame for the defeat ... can be more honest - the command of the Red Army, above all the highest?

    Everyone is to blame, but to varying degrees. In the famous memoirs of Shumilin, "Vanka-Rotny", it is constantly said that "the Slavs do not like to shoot." Only hunters and snipers. One example from 41 years old: a platoon could not hit at least one out of 20 fascists from a prone position with rifles on the road from 200 m.Only the commander himself took the vintar and set an example ...
    1. -2
      April 10 2019 12: 39
      Quote: meandr51
      One example from the age of 41: a platoon couldn’t get from at least one fascist out of 20 from a lying position on a road with 200 m from rifles.

      Can you imagine something like this in RIA? bully
  23. 0
    April 9 2019 21: 02
    Quote: ser56
    Quote: yehat
    do you consider scribble rezun proof?

    if you are talking about V. Suvorov, it’s funny that a whole bunch of anti-resistanceists are fighting against one ... grain work ... bully

    Not against Rezun, but against the endless ones. From where they only climb ... Slipper them!
    1. -2
      April 10 2019 12: 39
      Quote: meandr51
      From where only climb ..

      maybe from the constant lies of lured official historians? bully
  24. 0
    April 10 2019 13: 29
    during the battle of Moscow, the Soviet counterattack almost led to the encirclement of Army Group Center or its individual parts. For example, there was a moment when the last communication of the German 4th Tank and 9th Armies was the only Smolensk-Vyazma railway. The Red Army did not have enough just a little ...

    But we understand that the ring was too thin to block the entire Army Center group.
    Too large a scale of environment, many weak points would be around the perimeter of the ring for its successful breakthrough. Most of the units were exhausted by previous battles and were far from the full-time staff, had no offensive experience - this was the first experience of an operational attack of this magnitude.
    The stubborn defense of the Germans in the area of ​​the Rzhevsky ledge - the Battle of Rzhevskaya, clearly showed how underestimated the military stability of the German troops in defense.
    1. +2
      April 10 2019 16: 23
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      But we understand that the ring was too thin to block the entire Army Center group.

      A year later, one 6A showed what it was worth - to surround her. And here - GA "Center" 41-year sample.
      The Red Army did not have enough just a little ...
      1. 0
        April 10 2019 17: 16
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        A year later, one XNUMHA showed what it costs - to surround it

        And what does it cost? :)))) Only - immediately I ask you not to confuse the environment of 6 with the subsequent battles for its destruction - these are two big differences
        1. 0
          April 10 2019 17: 41
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Only - I immediately ask you not to confuse the environment 6A with subsequent battles for its destruction

          Surrounding without fighting to destroy is 4 days, November 19-23? Or until January 10?
          1. 0
            April 10 2019 17: 51
            Why are you asking me? :))) You made some statement, I ask you to clarify it, but at the same time I ask you not to confuse the fact of the environment with the subsequent actions to destroy the boiler. And to what date do you consider the operation on the environment - well, how do I know this?
            1. 0
              April 10 2019 20: 58
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              You made some statement, I ask you to explain it

              Basically, you are right. Naturally, I meant the whole batch. If the meaning of the phrase about the environment "nearly complicated the GA communication" - OK, it is accepted.
        2. 0
          April 16 2019 13: 49
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          And what does it cost? :)))) Only - immediately I ask you not to confuse the environment of 6 with the subsequent battles for its destruction - these are two big differences


          The direction of the strike was chosen very well if, instead of the 8th Italian army and the 4th Romanian army, the 2nd Hungarian army, there would have been much more combat-ready German troops - the big question is how the offensive would have developed and the 6th encirclement would have taken place army.
          In the course of the Uranus operation, the task of dismembering the 6th Army of the Germans was not solved - the stubborn resistance of the Germans did not completely solve the tasks of Uranus.
          In his memoirs, Manstein speaks very impartially about the "allies" and their combat stability, blaming them for the collapse of the front.

          But even with this success, the retention of the ring was expensive - the suppression of the release of the 6th German army required the reserves provided for a further offensive.

          So it sounds absolutely unbelievable that it would have been possible to surround at least for a long time a group of army center centers in 1941-1942 without catastrophic consequences for those around them.