Tsushima ZP errors. Rozhdestvensky and the death of "Oslyab"

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In previous articles, the author described in detail the peculiarities of maneuvering the Russian squadron up to the opening of fire by the main forces. Briefly, the results of Z.P. Rozhdestvensky look like this:

1. The Russian squadron was walking in two parallel columns most of the time since it established contact with the Japanese scouts. This became known to H. Togo, as a result of which the Japanese commander decided to abandon attempts to set up a “crossing T” and preferred to attack the left column of the Russians. The latter consisted of 2-th and 3-th armored units, that is, had Oslabyu at the head, and behind it were old Russian squadron battleships and coastal defense battleships who, without the support of the main squadron forces, are four squadron battleships of the Borodino type could not withstand the impact of 12 armored ships of the main forces of the Japanese. In other words, H. Togo believed that by attacking a weaker Russian column, it would inflict heavy damage to it, after which the fate of the 1 armored Russian detachment would also be resolved.



2. The attack of the left Russian column made sense only if the Russians had not had time to reorganize into a single wake column before it began. Z.P. Rozhestvensky set about rebuilding as soon as he saw the main forces of the Japanese, but rebuilt very slowly, increasing speed to 11,5 knots. and only slightly (of the order of 9 degrees.) having rotated successively at the intersection of the left column. As a result, the rebuilding of the Russian squadron was supposed to take about half an hour, but then, from the position of the Japanese flagship, it was almost imperceptible. In other words, the Russians gradually rebuilt, but H. Togo did not see this, and, obviously, believed that Z.P. Rozhestvensky has not yet begun rebuilding.

Tsushima ZP errors. Rozhdestvensky and the death of "Oslyab"


3. Thus, the Russian commander did everything so that the Japanese with all their strength fell on the left column, dispersed with it on the countercourse, but by the time the parties got close to the firing distance, they had to be met by 4 battleship Borodino, who had time to take their place in the head of the column.

In other words, Zinovy ​​Petrovich had a great trap for the Japanese admiral. But what then did not work?

Error one, it’s the main one


Z.P. Rozhestvensky expected that at the end of the rebuilding, by the time his flagship returned to the NO23 course, Borodino, Alexander III and Orel would have enough space to fit between Prince Suvorov and Oslyaby. However, this did not happen, and when Suvorov completed the maneuver and lay down again on the course NO23, the Eagle was aboard Oslyabi. What went wrong?

Z.P. Rozhdestvensky is often accused of failing to calculate a relatively simple maneuver, but is this true? Oddly enough, the calculations show that the Russian commander did everything perfectly correctly. Investigation Commission Zinovy ​​Petrovich explained his maneuver on the example of a right triangle, the hypotenuse of which was formed by the course of the 1-th armored detachment - four ships of the Borodino type, which took 29 minutes to exit across the course of the right column.



This is how Z.P. himself described this maneuver. Rozhdestvensky:

"To determine what distance was in 1 h. 49 m between the head of the first detachment and the head of the second detachment, we can assume that the first went, with an average speed close to the 11,25 nodes, along a line close to the hypotenuse of the triangle, 29 minutes ( and, therefore, passed about 5,5 miles), and the other went along a large leg, at a speed of 9 nodes, and passed in 29 minutes 4 1 / 3 miles. Since the small leg of the same triangle (the distance between the columns) was equal to 0,8 miles, the entire length of the large leg should be equal to 5,4 miles, and the distance between Suvorov and Oslyabya in 1 h. 49 m. Was to be 5,4 - 4,33 = 1,07 miles.


That is, by the time when “Suvorov” turned to NO23, its position and “Oslyabi” should have been like this



It is well known that the greatest length of the Borodino-type battleships was 121,2 m, and they walked at intervals in 2 cable. Accordingly, the length of the column 1 of the armored detachment was from the “Suvorov” stem to the stern of the closing “Eagle” 8,6 cable. The remaining calculations are very simple and show that the Z.P. Rozhestvensky left more than 2 cable between the Oslyab and the stern of the Eagle, which would be quite enough to restore the front's structure.

That is, in theory, entering the 1 of an armored detachment into the head of the Russian column should not have created any problem: nevertheless, it created, because, by the time "Prince Suvorov" returned to the course NO23, opened fire, " The Eagle was not in the 2 cable in front of the Oslyab, but on its traverse. What did the Russian admiral not take into account?

Z.P. Rozhestvensky suggested the following:

“At the present time, apparently, it appears that the battleship Eagle (4-th — in the 1-th detachment), with the above construction, drew off and in 1 h. 49-m was not in its place, but behind the right board "Oslyabya." I do not have the right to challenge this. Maybe the Eagle pulled away through his own fault or the fault of the third in order (the second number followed Suvorov in immaculate distance). ”


That is, according to Zinovy ​​Petrovich, the problem was due to the fact that his small column of 4 battleships stretched out, and either Borodino fell behind Alexander III, or Orel fell behind Borodino.

It is quite possible, but, in the opinion of the author of this article, not only (and not so much) the commanders of Borodino or Orel are to blame for this, but also the confusing order of Z.P. Rozhdestvensky. He ordered the 1 armored detachment to hold the 11 nodes, but the “Suvorov” - 11,5 ties. Obviously, the admiral's calculation was that Alexander III, Borodino, and the Eagle would orient themselves on Prince Suvorov and would select such a number of revolutions of their cars to follow the front matelot, observing the prescribed 2 cable interval.

On the one hand, this is, of course, the right decision, because, given the uneven acceleration of the ships, it is still easier to catch up with the outgoing matelot than to slow down if your battleship picked up speed faster than those ahead of it. That is, when rebuilding, in any case it is safer to make a maneuver that will increase the intervals between the ships than the one that can reduce these intervals. But all this is correct only for those cases where an increase in the length of the column for some time cannot lead to any sad consequences, but in the case under consideration this was not the case.

In general, it can be stated that Z.P. Rozhestvensky, planning a maneuver of the “return” of battleships of the 1 squad to the head of the column, “designed” it correctly, but too much at the same time. He proceeded from the fact that Oslabya ​​runs exactly 9 nodes, and believed that the 11,5 ties that the Prince Suvorov would develop would give him, given the time to disperse from 9 ties. Medium speed (11,25 knots) is enough to change lanes. But any, even minor deviations - say, “Oslyabya” goes a little faster than 9 nodes, or the average speed of the 1 armor unit will not be 11,25, but closer to 11 nodes - and the distance between Oslyaby and Eagle at the time of completion maneuver will be less than 2 cable. And this means that Oslyab will have to shorten the course in order to enter into service with the Eagle, and observe the prescribed two-cable interval.

Well, after that exactly what happened happened - maybe Oslyabya and the right column of the Russian battleships moved a little faster than Z.P. Rozhdestvensky, maybe “Suvorov” went slower, and it is quite likely that Borodino or Eagle could stretch the prescribed interval - one of these reasons, or some combination of them led to the fact that instead of a brilliant rebuild of 1 armored detachment, in which the "Eagle" was supposed to be about two cables in front and in 20-30 m to the right of the Oslyab course ... it turned out what happened.



ZP error Rozhestvensky was that when planning a maneuver, he should have laid a small (at least another pair of cables) “margin of safety” for any kind of error, but he did not do that. And maybe he did, but he incorrectly estimated some parameter (the speed of Oslyab, for example) and was mistaken in his calculations.

Error two - possibly non-existent


They concluded that Z.P. Rozhestvensky, after turning "Prince Suvorov" reduced its speed to 9 nodes.

The fact is that with the "Prince Suvorov" Russian admiral, completing the rebuilding, could not estimate exactly where the "Eagle" is relative to "Oslyabi". Even with perfect visibility (for example, if Alexander III and Borodino suddenly became transparent), it would be all the same to understand whether the Eagle is on the traverse of Oslyabi, or if it is ahead of it by a couple of cables it would not be so easy the two Russian battleships marching between the Prince Suvorov and the Eagle were not transparent at all. It turned out that Z.P. Rozhestvensky remained confident that Oslyabya would be able to get into the Eagle's wake without any problems, and this was absolutely not the case.

It is necessary to take into account such a moment. Theoretically, the Russian commander, in addition to the two cables laid between them “Oslyabye” and “Eagle” “put” into the maneuver, had another handicap. The fact is that battleships of the 1 squad, of course, could not reduce the speed from 11,5 to 9 knots. all at once, such a “stop” is impossible even for a passenger car. Armadillos of the Borodino type could only do this gradually, that is, until the speeds were equalized, the distance between the 1 armored detachment and the column of the 2 and 3 units would continue to increase.

In other words, suppose that the battleships of the 1 squad reduced the speed from 11,5 to 9 knots. for 1-3 minutes, respectively, the indicated time they would go at an average speed of 10,25 knots, which on 1,25 knots exceeded the speed of Oslyabi and the right column. That is, during the time while the 1 armored detachment dropped speed, the distance between Oslyabye and Eagle would have increased by 0,2-0,6 cable in addition to the 2,2 cable that Z.P. Rozhdestvensky.

Why did not Zinovy ​​Petrovich align the columns in another way? After all, he could not reduce the speed of the 1-th armored detachment to 9 nodes, and instead order the Oslyab, and the ships following him to increase the speed from 9 to 11 nodes. This option looks great until you think about such a maneuver properly.

Although opinions on the relative position of the Russian and Japanese squadrons at the time of the opening of the fire differ, we take as a basis the description of our official stories: the turning point of the Japanese squadron was located in 32 cable and on 4 rumba (45 degrees) to the traverse of the Suvorov. At the same time, after the turnaround, the Japanese ships lay down on a parallel, or almost parallel, Russian squadron course.

Following the previous course at the speed of 9 units, the Russians were approaching the turning point of the Japanese squadron, while if the ships of H. Kamimura turned after H. Togo (and at the beginning of the Japanese turn everything looked like that), at the moment when the last Japanese armored the cruiser would pass the turning point (14.04) it would be abeam "Prince Suvorov" approximately 22,5 cable from him, while the distance from the end of the Russian to the end of the Japanese ship would be approximately 36 cables, as shown in Figure 1.



Well, if the Russian column went on the 11 nodes, it would have moved forward on the 5 cable (Figure 2).

So, in terms of tactics, ZP Rozhestvensky did not have to make any maneuvers, but had to go the same course, approaching the turning point: in this case, an increasing number of Russian ships could participate in the battle, firing with the left side. From this point of view, it would be more useful to go on 11 nodes, since in this case the terminal Japanese ship, having completed the turn, would have appeared not on the traverse of “Suvorov”, but almost on the traverse of “Borodino”, but would not be separated from the terminal Russian ship. 36, but only 32 cable.

But it must be understood that in this case the Russian commander, approaching the trailing Japanese, would substitute the head of his column for concentrated fire of the entire Japanese line. And here Z.P. Rozhestvensky had to choose a compromise speed that would provide his ships with the best conditions for firing at the Japanese passing the turning point, but at the same time did not put Suvorov, Alexander III, etc. too hard. under the fire of the Japanese line. And in this respect, 9 nodes seemed to be more optimal than 11 - even from today's position.

Interesting and more - Z.P. Rozhestvensky believed that the time of the Japanese rebuilding could be less than it was in reality, and that X. Togo could be packed in 10 minutes. In this case, it would have turned out that “Suvorov”, following on the 9 nodes, would not have reached the traverse of the end armored cruiser X. Kamimura approximately the 7,5 cable length. Then, at least theoretically, the Russian squadron received the opportunity, turning successively to the left, to pass under the stern of the Japanese system.

In addition, the speed in 9 nodes had other advantages. Obviously, it would be much easier to slow down the speed of the 1 armored detachment, than to increase the speed of the 2 th and 3 th. In this case, for some time they would have lagged behind the battleships of the Borodino type, and it’s not a fact that the system would have been preserved at all - N.I. Nebogatov could delay, etc. Recall that Zinovy ​​Petrovich was of the lowest opinion about the rafting of 2 and 3 of Pacific squadrons: despite the regular maneuvers with N.I. Nebogatovym he could not get him to fulfill his orders.

In other words, Z.P. Rozhdestvensky could, of course, give 11 nodes, but at the same time the chances that his convoy of 12 armored ships would stretch were too great, and the end ones would still remain almost as far from the turning point of the Japanese as if the squadron was on 9 nodes . That is, rushing towards the Japanese, the Russian commander won little for the ships of the 2-th and 3-th units, but at the same time more strongly substituted his best ships under the concentrated fire of the Japanese.

“Well,” the respected reader will say: “But if the author is sure that the squadron speed in the 9 nodes really was optimal in that tactical situation, why did he put her in the blame for Z.P. Rozhdestvensky, her number as the error of the Russian commander? ". The answer is very simple.

Z.P. Rozhestvensky should first complete the rebuilding, make sure that all the battleships of the 1 squad returned to the previous NO23 course, and Oslyabya followed them into the wake and only then reduced to speed to 9 nodes. In the article devoted to the ways in which a high-speed squadron can set up a “crossing T” to a slow-moving enemy, the author ventured to say that any maneuver performed before the previous one was completed could lead to chaos. This is exactly what we see in this case - when the “Prince Suvorov” turned on NO23 and opened fire, the 1th armored detachment had not yet completed the rebuilding, and did not lay down, following the flagship, on NO23. Save Z.P. Rozhdestvensky speed in the 11,5 node for a short while, and the Eagle, which turned out to be on the crossbar of Oslyabi in 13.49, would continue to slowly overtake the flagship, alas, the late DG Felkerzam, which would greatly facilitate the head battleship of the 2 squadron to turn into a wake "Eagle." But Z.P. Rozhestvensky began a new maneuver, without completing the previous one: he reduced speed before all the 4 battleships of the 1 squadron were laid down on NO23. And this is what should be considered a mistake of the Russian admiral.

In other words, there was no mistake in leading the squadron to the 9 units in the current situation: the mistake was that Z.P. Rozhdestvensky reduced the speed of his 9 armored unit to 1 nodes too early.

But what is interesting: it is possible that Z.P. Rozhestvensky did not make this mistake. Many sources (for example, AS Novikov-Priboy) indicate that “Prince Suvorov” reduced the course to 9 nodes immediately after turning to NO23, but there is evidence to the contrary. So, for example, M.V. Ozerov, commander of the squadron battleship "Sisoy the Great" in the testimony of the Investigation Commission stated:

"In 1 h. 42 m. Of the day" Oslyabya "opened fire on the enemy. The 1 squad began to dodge to the right, probably to lie with the enemy for one course, and the 2 and 3 squad were ordered to join him in the wake, the move to have an 11 knot. But this move, the indicated two units could not only continue for some time, since the 1 squad still hadn’t got into the head, but even had to shorten the turn significantly to allow the ships of the 1 squadron to take their places ”.


Unfortunately, our official history does not comment on this point in any way: it is possible, precisely because the testimony of the squadron officers is too contradictory for a certain verdict on this issue to be made.

Error three, which is not a mistake at all


This error is considered signal Z.P. Rozhestvensky, who he raised right after his flagship turned to NO23: "The 2 squad to be in the wake of the first."

Interestingly, the members of the Historical Commission at the Naval General Staff, who made up the official “Russian-Japanese War 1904-1905”, consider giving this signal completely wrong action of the admiral, calling it “a petty alignment of his squadron”. But let's think - could Z.P. Rozhdestvensky not give a similar signal? Before the main forces of the Japanese were discovered, the 1 armored detachment maneuvered separately from the rest of the main forces, forming the right column of the Russian system. Now he went to the rest of the head, but "Prince Suvorov" completed the rebuilding just to the right of the Oslyab course. In other words, Z.P. Rozhestvensky obviously wanted to rebuild the main forces into a single wake column, regaining control, but how could his flagships guess this? Do not lift the Russian commander of this signal, and on Oslyab, one would only have to guess if Z.P. Rozhdestvensky, so that 2-th and 3-s armored units follow him, or does he prefer to continue to maneuver only four of his battleships of the Borodino type of the 1-second squad? In other words, the Russian commander was supposed to let know at Oslyaby what he expected from the ships he was leading joint maneuvering, that was the meaning of the order to the 2 squadron to be in the wake of the first.

Thus, this indication was absolutely necessary, and the only question is to understand how timely it was. Maybe it made sense to raise it only when the 1-th armored detachment in full returned to the course NO23? Hardly: by the time when only “Prince Suvorov” turned to NO23, he was clearly visible from “Oslyab”, but already after “Alexander III” would have been able to examine the signals on “Oslyab” in the wake of “Osliab” Suvorov "were not too large. And when three battleships would line up between Oslaby and Prince Suvorov, the chances that the flagship of the 2 armored detachment would be considered a signal from the Russian commander were completely illusory. True, for this there existed “Pearls” and “Emerald”, which were out of line, and served also as repetitive courts. They should have transmitted any signal from the commander to Oslaby, but, possibly, in the outset of the battle of Z.P. Rozhestvensky was afraid to rely only on them alone.

Error four. But whose?


And, in fact, what did all the mistakes of the Russian admiral above lead to? The answer seems to be obvious: due to the mistakes of Z.P. Rozhdestvensky squadron battleship "Eagle" was not ahead of "Oslyab", as intended, but on its traverse, and even began to reduce the course, equalizing it with "Oslyaby." As a result, the commander of the flagship battleship of the 2 squad had nothing left to do, in order to execute the order of the commander, first reduce the turn to the smallest, and then stop at all, letting the Eagle go ahead. As a result, the Japanese had an excellent opportunity to practice shooting at a standing target, and quickly achieved success, inflicting "Oslyab" the most severe damage that predetermined the rapid death of the ship. It is so?


Perhaps the last photo of Oslyab, taken in May 1905 before the Korean Strait


If we proceed from the maxim, according to which the commander is responsible for all the actions of his subordinates - then, of course, it is. But let's think a little over what I did in the period from 13.20 to 13.49 and a little after that, the commander of the squadron battleship Oslyabya V.I. Rem.

So, before 13.20, 1, the armored detachment, went parallel to 2 and 3, but then “Prince Suvorov” turned, and went across the course “Oslyabi”. So, what is next? Long 29 minutes Vladimir Iosifovich Baer had the opportunity to observe the execution of this maneuver. Doubt in its meaning was hardly possible - it is obvious that in view of the main forces of the enemy, Z.P. Rozhestvensky was going to lead the right column, led by Oslaby. And if Zinoviy Petrovich didn’t see that in the course of rebuilding his trailing “Eagle” does not have time to pass in front of “Oslyabye”, then at Oslyab itself it was evident long before the real threat of a collision was created!

But what does V. I. Baer do about this? And nothing. He had the opportunity to see the danger in advance, and to preempt it — all that was needed for this, which was to slightly reduce the speed of travel. The powers of such a flagship 2-th armored detachment, of course, were. But no — instead, Vladimir Iosifovich continues to the utmost to carry out the order given earlier and follows the established course at a given speed, and then, when the collision is almost inevitable, he stops his battleship because of the enemy, without even thinking about letting the ships following him!

Recall the testimony of Lieutenant Ovander from the battleship "Sisoy the Great", who followed directly after "Oslyabye":

“Oslyabya, obviously wanting to help lining up quickly, that is, letting the 1 armored detachment come forward, first reduced the turn and then immediately stalled the machines ... ... The squadron battleship Oslyabya changing the course and stopping the machines didn’t (signal, semaphore, balls, etc.) did not show. ”


There is no doubt that it is absolutely incorrect to compare warships and cars, but anyway, at least some experienced driver knows how dangerous a situation is created when in a convoy of vehicles following certain intervals, the head driver sharply “hits” the brakes similar arranged following ships I. I. Rem.

In other words, Z.P. Rozhestvensky, of course, made a mistake when rebuilding: for some of the reasons listed above, he created a situation in which the “Eagle” did not have time to pass in front of “Oslyabye”. But his mistake was easily corrected by V. I. Beer, to whom this error was obvious long before the situation took on an “emergency” character. It is very difficult not to understand the threat of a collision when the battleship of the 1 squad slowly “rolls” onto your ship! But V.I. Baer did absolutely nothing, and his inaction ultimately led to the fact that Oslyab had to not only lose the course, but would stop completely under enemy fire.

V.I.Ber could well have reduced the course in advance by skipping the battleships of the 1 squad of Z.P. Rozhdestvensky. But even bringing the situation to the threat of a collision, he still could not go into the wake of the “Eagle”, but go a little to the right or left, dropping the course and closing the “Eagle” or “hiding” behind him: but when the latter comes forward , then have him go to the waterfront. Yes, in this case the "Eagle" or "Oslyabya" would "double", and one of them would not have been able to shoot at the Japanese ships. But still, it was much better than leaving his battleship under fire without moving, also forcing an emergency braking of the ships of the 2 squad following the Oslyabyi.

In other words, Z.P. Rozhestvensky, of course, made a mistake, but only the actions of V. I. Baer, ​​which appear to the author of this article to be completely illiterate, led to the fact that this error turned into a catastrophe — the death of Oslyabi at the very beginning of the battle.

And again - wasn’t Z.P. Rozhestvensky responsible for the preparation of their flagships? You can, of course, assume that he simply intimidated his commanders to a degree completely incompatible with independent decisions. But remember that, left without the leadership of the flagship, the commander of the battleship Alexander III acted more than intelligently: he led his ship between the cruisers H. Kamimura and the battleships X. Togo, in order to pass under the stern of the Japanese squadron 1: this maneuver was extremely dangerous for Alexander III, but negated the tactical advantage that the Japanese had gained by this time. In essence, Nikolai Mikhailovich Bukhvostov sacrificed his battleship for the sake of an attempt to rescue the squadron: such a solution can be considered whatever, but the term “inert-free” is obviously inapplicable to it. So, it can be assumed that the commanders of the 2-nd Pacific Squadron were not so scored.

According to the author of this article, the case was as follows. On the Oslyab, the rear admiral and commander of the 2 armored detachment, Dmitry Gustavovich von Felkersz, kept his flag, who made the main decisions, and V. I. Baer remained, as it were, “in the shadow”, only the executor of the admiral's will. But in Kamrani, D.G. Felkerzam had a stroke, and he died a few days before the battle. As a result, V.I. Rem was not only at the head of the battleship, but also at the head of the entire 2 armored detachment, completely unprepared for such responsibility.

At the end of this article, it remains only to add that the author has too far evaded the history of the Pearl and Emerald armored cruisers, and in the next article I will gladly return to them. As for the actions of Z.P. Rozhdestvensky in the outbreak of the battle, another article will be devoted to them, in which the author will try to figure out how effectively the Russian squadron was able to take advantage of those 15 minutes of the position that Zinovy ​​Petrovich Rozhestvensky gave her.

To be continued ...
294 comments
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  1. +8
    23 June 2019 18: 36
    Very interesting articles. But for some reason they are associated with an old Odessa anecdote: "So that I was as smart before as my Sarah after."
    1. +6
      23 June 2019 18: 41
      From the position of after-knowledge it is always easier to give assessments, draw conclusions and make correct constructions. The main thing to remember about this, and not to say that since Sarah is smart after, Abramchik must be smart before, otherwise he is mentally retarded, decaying, unable to think, etc. hi
    2. +3
      23 June 2019 19: 48
      That's right, but this joke sounded a little different.

      "it's good to be smart earlier than my wife later" (c) :)
    3. +2
      24 June 2019 14: 04
      Quote: Amateur
      Very interesting articles. But for some reason they are associated with an old Odessa anecdote: "So that I was as smart before as my Sarah after."

      =======
      good I heard this anecdote in a slightly different interpretation: "So that I was as smart as my wife ON THE NEXT day!" .... The bottom line - DOESN'T CHANGE! drinks
      Having lived a long enough life, more than one hundred times I asked myself the question: "Lord! Well, what an IDIOT I was! Today, I would have acted DIFFERENTLY and the RESULT would have been COMPLETELY DIFFERENT !!! This is especially true for EXTREME situations (including and combat ) .....
      ALAS! HISTORY - does not know the "subjunctive mood" ... WHAT happened - THAT happened!
    4. +2
      24 June 2019 16: 46
      Quote: Amateur
      So that I was as smart before as my Sarah after. "

      Rozhdestvensky did not have a time machine to read the forums
  2. -7
    23 June 2019 18: 51
    Why climb into such a range of imperial time? In Soviet times, there were no less mistakes. Maybe it’s better to parse the mistakes of more recent wars? For example, WWII on fleets in the Black Sea and the Baltic. After all, in fact, they were a failure.
    1. +6
      23 June 2019 21: 55
      In fact, not knowing the mistakes of the past, we will not be able to understand the mistakes of the present
      1. 0
        24 June 2019 07: 01
        In general, a true remark, but in what such a painful dream can one imagine the maneuvering of armored columns of opponents today? Today, even just an artillery duel is very doubtful. Here, as a negative experience, it is only possible to drag all kinds of shields in the form of outdated rubbish, supply vessels, floating workshops, hospital ships to the seas and oceans of a modern combat nucleus. This was then and is today the brand name of the Russian fleet, the sad result of the lack of naval base, supply and repair bases, even just friendly ports in the oceans. Therefore, it is possible to study such an experience only from the point of view of naval history, otherwise it is useless.
  3. +11
    23 June 2019 18: 55
    the Japanese got an excellent opportunity to practice shooting at a standing target, and quickly achieved success, inflicting severe damage on the Oslyabya, which predetermined the quick death of the ship

    Let’s try to reconstruct the death of the battleship, using and comparing the information from the combat report of the battleship commander “Fuji” (第 4 号 富士 艦長 海軍 大 佐松 本 和 の 提出 せ る 軍艦 富士 日本 海海 戦 戦 闘 и) and the memories of the crew of “Loosen up”.

    First the main caliber shell of the battleship "Fuji", which opened fire on the "Oslyab" in 13:53 (14: 11 in Japanese), hit the second Russian flagship already three minutes later. Torn on the starboard side in the area of ​​the living deck, he made a large underwater hole in the bow of the Oslyaby. Water poured into the ship into the first and second compartments, through cracks in the deck and fragmented fan tubes into the six-inch bow cellar and turret compartment. Sealing holes due to running and swell was not possible, further water distribution on the living deck was delayed by a third bulkhead in front of the bow beam, and below the water reached the separation of the bow torpedo tubes and dynamos. In 14: 20 the battleship, anchored by the anchor noses and with a roll of 15 degrees to the starboard side, failed.
    В 14:30 hit the bow of the ship on the right side, not far from the first major hole, opposite the bow tower second a projectile that exploded a large hole in the side through which, as an eyewitness wrote, the “troika will pass”, through which water flows into the ship in a continuous stream. The hole was so large that through it unloaded barrels of minefields fell out, stored in one of the rooms opposite this place.
    Simultaneously third 12 "shell made a hole at the waterline, opposite the 10th coal pit, and water, filling the pit and the spare pit-chamber, bulged out the pressure already damaged by the explosion, the bulkhead separating it from the living deck. As a result of the ever-increasing heel and trim, shrouded in black smoke and covered in fires, the Oslyabya sank even deeper with its prow. The ship stopped the vehicles and went out of order, falling to the starboard side.
    To straighten the roll, they began to flood the left-side cartridge chambers, but due to the small cross-section of the valves, this attempt was unsuccessful.
    Rapidly pouring water overturned and carried away boards, bunks - all that people tried to close up holes. The stronger the armadillo rolled, the more water fell into it from the holes made by shells in the freeboard. Water was distributed both through the leaky seams of the waterproof bulkheads and through riveted holes passed by negligent builders, worn rubber seals of doors, hatches and necks.
    Seams of watertight bulkheads flowed, water poured in through rivet holes passed by negligent builders, rubber of doors and hatches, missing oil seals, in the places where rods, pipes, cables of the machine telegraph pass through bulkheads and decks. The door from the right aft stoker to the engine room was first left open to lower the water level in the stoker and to be pumped out by the draining means of the engine room. It was not possible to pull up the "waterproof" door
    When the roll reached the battery deck, water poured into the holes and ports of the lower battery, which could not be lifted due to broken half-bays, as a result of which the battleship quickly lay aboard, buried in the water with its nose. For some time the ship held on its side, all three of its pipes were clearly visible, and in 14: 52 it sank, smoothly leaving its nose under the water. Immediately approaching the site of the Oslyaby’s death, the destroyers Bravy, Stormy and Bystry managed to save several officers and about half of the lower ranks.
    The coup and diving was so unexpected for the crew that during the roll to the starboard port guns continued to fire.
    1. -1
      23 June 2019 19: 52
      Quote: Comrade
      The first shell of the main caliber of the battleship "Fuji", which opened fire on the "Oslyaba" at 13:53 (14:11 in Japanese), hit the second Russian flagship three minutes later.

      Our Canadian friend, as usual, is confusing something :) Firstly, in "Meiji" it is written in black and white that Fuji opened fire on Suvorov. laughing

      And secondly .. It's hard to imagine that the 12 "shell flew to Oslyabi for THREE minutes.
      1. +1
        24 June 2019 14: 49
        what are you hinting at - didn’t they shoot reptilians?
        1. -1
          24 June 2019 23: 12
          Quote: yehat
          what are you hinting at - didn’t they shoot reptilians?

          Well .. this breed is sometimes called "Asamoids". Plus Nissin with Kasuga in the first minutes. Oslyaba had enough.
    2. +3
      23 June 2019 21: 06
      Thanks for the info: very interesting
    3. -1
      23 June 2019 22: 34
      第 4 号 富士 艦長 海軍 大 佐松 本 和 の 提出 せ る 軍艦 富士 日本 海海 戦 戦 闘 報告


      is it definitely not about "Sikishima"?
      1. 0
        23 June 2019 23: 37
        Apparently still not Sikishima. Matsumoto Kazu - captain of Fuji until the end of 1905. But his account of Tsushima in the English translation is a big mystery. He really does not make ends meet.
        1. +2
          24 June 2019 00: 37
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Matsumoto Kazu - captain of Fuji until the end of the 1905 year. But his account of Tsushima in the English translation is a big mystery.


          Could you confirm your words:
          a) post a link where you can familiarize yourself with this very "English translation",
          b) lay out, if you do not want to indicate the site, screenshots of this translation,
          c) upload a photo from the book, if it is only in paper form for you.

          If there is nothing, then again you are simply lying.
          1. 0
            24 June 2019 23: 21
            Quote: Comrade
            If there is nothing, then again you are simply lying.

            And your Canadian religion does not allow you to look into the state electronic library where the scans of the original edition of "Meiji" in Russian are posted? There, in black and white, with yatami, it is written on whom Fuji opened fire from a distance of 6200 meters ..

            You set a bunch of conditions, but you yourself have never yet proven the authenticity of your "squiggles" extracted from some cellars .. Well, the maps of the battle in the Yellow Sea that you turned upside down and wiped off do not leave questions at all about the quality of some of your materials ..

            So let's do without your usual drafts. First, try to prove the inaccuracy of the official Russian translation of Meiji.
            1. +2
              25 June 2019 00: 59
              Quote: Saxahorse
              First, try to prove the inaccuracy of the official Russian translation of Meiji.

              Uh, no, that won’t work. Don't move off topic, buddy.
              You wrote that
              Matsumoto Kazu - captain of Fuji until the end of the 1905 year. But his account of Tsushima in the English translation is a big mystery. He really does not make ends meet.

              I suggested that you prove the existence of such a translation; you are trying to change the subject.
              Now let's raise the stakes, do you want a thousand US dollars for scans of the translation of the combat report of the battleship commander "Fuji" into English and a link to the site where you found it?
              There are fifteen pages, here are the first two.

              Think, I offer good money only for the fact that you confirm your words expressed to one of those few who still take you seriously.

              Quote: Saxahorse
              First, try to prove the inaccuracy of the official Russian translation of Meiji.

              What for ? The translation is normal, but alas, incomplete. I have two editions of Robinson Crusoe on my shelf. One is for children, an abbreviated version, I enthusiastically swallowed it as a child, and the second is a full version, already for adults. I can give you another example, the same "Gargantua and Pantagruel". You can take a thin book for schoolchildren, or you can take an academic edition.
              And then there is "Gulliver's Adventures" for both children and adults, well, etc. I hope you understand what this is about.
              And just imagine, you have read the full version of "Gulliver", you begin to retell it to a student, and he tells you that you are lying, because the book about Gulliver that he read in the school library does not contain what you are telling him.
              1. -1
                25 June 2019 23: 20
                Quote: Comrade
                What for ? The translation is normal, but alas, incomplete. I have two editions of Robinson Crusoe on my shelf.

                Once for you and Robinson too. But to refuse the main document describing the battles of the strategic nuclear forces is, to say the least, ridiculous. And all the more ridiculous to compare with a really almost children's book. If you are not familiar with Meiji then what are we arguing about at all?

                By the way, it looks like you didn’t read Commander Fuji’s report either, otherwise you would have answered differently :)

                And tie already with your show-offs around your thousand Canadian dollars. I have no doubt that suddenly the winner will immediately receive a thick pack of jokes as a reward. laughing
                1. +1
                  26 June 2019 00: 46
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  But to refuse the main document describing the battle of the RJV

                  "Description of military operations at sea in 37-38 in Meiji" not is
                  the main document describing the battle
                  .
                  One of the main documents is the "Chronicle of the War"

                  A "Description of military operations at sea in 37-38 in Meiji" is something like very a light version of the Chronicle.

                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  And tie already with your show-offs around your thousand Canadian dollars.

                  Offering thousands of US dollars is an effective tool to fight liars and trolls like you.
                  You lied to me once, you lied to me two. How to bring you to clean water? Start arguing, proving something, wasting time and effort, as we did together on the AI ​​website? But why ?
                  It is much easier in front of the public to put you on a stretch. What you lied Andrei ShmelevI knew from the very beginning.
                  It was important that he got it. You were offered money, you could not confirm your words, and now all around see that You liar

                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  I have no doubt that suddenly the winner will immediately receive as a reward a thick pack of jokes

                  Nikolay, even in anonymous forums I value my reputation, so I’m acting for sure.
                  Keep this in mind for the future and commit to lie and troll, otherwise you will be in a puddle from time to time.
                  1. +1
                    26 June 2019 22: 31
                    Quote: Comrade
                    One of the main documents is the "Chronicle of the War"

                    Are you saying that you read this book instead of Meiji? "War Chronicle" in Japanese? And so you don't need to know anything more about the events of the RJAV? And how long have you been able to master Japanese perfectly? Six months ago, you complained that you didn't know .. What kind of dreamer you are, however laughing
                    1. +1
                      26 June 2019 22: 56
                      I must nevertheless add that the question that caused our emotional debate in reality means little.

                      Despite some mysteries in the report of Captain Fuji, the general scheme of the battle excluded Fuji's shooting at Oslyaba. This follows from both "Meiji" and "Chronicle .."
        2. 0
          24 June 2019 14: 50
          translation quality also means a lot.
    4. +2
      24 June 2019 10: 31
      Dear Valentine, I am wildly sorry, but didn’t the hits fall on the port side of the battleship? The enemy was on the left.
      1. 0
        24 June 2019 15: 48
        Quite right, to the left, and not to the right, as I have mistakenly written. I also noticed this, but it was too late to fix it.
  4. +3
    23 June 2019 19: 10
    I don’t know how Rozhdestvensky’s plan to go in two columns cannot be considered a mistake. The rebuilding mechanism initially implied the possibility of performer error. Big risk, and the gain is ephemeral.
    In any case, all of this crush in Tsushima had purely political consequences. From a military point of view, even a victory here would not have changed anything. Everything was decided at Liaoyang and Mukden.
    1. 0
      23 June 2019 19: 53
      Quote: Demagogue
      I do not know how it is possible not to consider the Christmas plan to go in two columns as an error. The rebuilding mechanism initially implied the possibility of performer error.

      But avoiding crossing T, and it was more important.
      Quote: Demagogue
      In any case, Tsushima’s entire crush had purely political implications. From a military point of view, even a victory here would not change anything.

      Just if we won in Tsushima, then the Japanese would have only to capitulate, regardless of the victories on land. Since they could not supply the army on the continent
      1. +9
        23 June 2019 19: 56
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        But avoiding crossing T, and it was more important.

        Let me remind you again. Crossing-T Rozhdestvensky made himself! "It is difficult to avoid what you yourself strive for with all your might" (c) laughing
        1. +5
          24 June 2019 01: 10
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Crossing-T Rozhdestvensky made himself! "

          Stupid Rozhdestvensky made crossing for himself; clever Witgeft did not for himself crossing.
          Let's move on.
          The historical facts are such that the Japanese, even without crossing, brought the "Tsarevich" to a deplorable state in a matter of minutes.
          The question is - why so much procrastination of the notorious crossing? To show how smart I am and how stupid he is? I understand this and that, but didn’t he understand anything?
          Actually there is crossing, there is no crossing, the result of concentrated fire four armadillos by one there is only one target - the exit of "Tsarevich" and "Prince Suvorov" out of action with heavy damage and in the shortest possible time.
          The speed of the target does not matter, at least nine knots, at least eleven, at least fourteen.
          1. +4
            24 June 2019 06: 07
            Quote: Comrade
            In fact, there is crossing, there is no cross-link, the result of the concentrated fire of four battleships at one target is one - the exit of the "Tsarevich" and "Prince Suvorov" with heavy damage and in the shortest possible time

            good Himself about it more than once reminded Yes
          2. +4
            24 June 2019 16: 35
            As Andrey likes to say: "A typical mistake of alternatives".
            The speed of the target is of great importance.
            All these "sticks over T" are from the realm of abstraction.
            Reality is the battle of two wake columns.
            With the "correct" battle, each ship gets its own "counterpart", each ship is under fire from the enemy. An attempt to concentrate the fire of several ships on one enemy ship leads to the fact that some of the enemy ships are in ideal conditions, because they are not fired at. Think of Derflinger and the British distribution of targets.
            And with a significant excess in speed, it becomes possible to concentrate the fire of several ships on one enemy ship, usually the flagship. without special consequences for themselves, since the enemy’s ships are at a disadvantage, they cannot use part of their artillery, or cannot use it at all.
            The question is, could Rozhdestvensky conduct part of his squadron at a speed comparable to the speed of the Japanese squadron?
            As far as I remember, it was already given in the comments that the Borodino-class battleships could go at a speed of up to 13,5 knots before the battle. Kostenko writes that after the battle "Oryol" retained the ability to travel at a speed of 15,5-16 knots.
            Let me remind you that the speed of the Japanese is -15 knots. Fuji could no longer go, nor Azuma.
            Andrey has already drawn attention to the fact that the speed after the battle is the speed of the "thinner" ship, because in the battle both coal and ammunition were consumed.
            Andrei also indicated that there was no coal overload, from which the completely incorrect conclusion is drawn that the battleships entered the battle without operational overload.
            Yes, there was no excess coal, but it was possible to unload the armadillos still.
            After all, boatswain stocks, excess water, oil, provisions, and practical ammunition were not removed from them.
            They did not get rid of part of the construction overload. They did not take off the boats and boats; instead, they were also filled with water. They did not dismantle the wooden protection of residential premises (needed in the tropics, and not in battle). But all together, this is not even tens, but hundreds of tons.
            Yes, and the bottom could be cleaned, which would also give an increase in speed.

            The number of comments on articles is over the top.
            This speaks not only about quality material, with which Andrei has never had problems.
            Let me give you an example from sports. Fortunately, among relatives there are those whose wards played both at republican and all-Union competitions, and for the USSR national team.
            If the training process was organized correctly, and the coach led the athlete to the competition at the peak of his form, the athlete gave all the best to the competition ... but lost, then there are no questions for the coach or the athlete. The athlete reached the ceiling. To win, you need another athlete.
            Rozhestvensky’s actions have a lot of questions. As if Andrew did not protect him.
          3. +1
            24 June 2019 23: 39
            Quote: Comrade
            In fact, there is crossing, there is no cross-link, the result of the concentrated fire of four battleships on one target is one - the exit of the "Tsarevich" and "Prince Suvorov"

            You diligently turn cause and effect upside down. Crossing is like "check and checkmate" in chess, only the name of the position in which the ship is inevitably under the concentrated fire of six opponents.

            Aiming his flagship in the middle of the Japanese column, Rozhdestvensky himself created a position guaranteeing concentrated enemy fire on his ship. You were reminded a hundred times that it was not difficult to dodge, just turn in parallel, putting up your own against each enemy ship. It is no coincidence, having got rid of Rozhestvenosky, "Alexander" and "Borodino" were able to hold out for several hours instead of 15 minutes of your favorite wing-admiral ..
      2. +10
        23 June 2019 20: 04
        1) Such evolutions with those cadres that served under the direction of Rozhdestvensky simply could not end happily. Basically.
        2) How would the supply of troops be interrupted? Arthur has already fallen. Squadron all one chapapat to Vladivostok in case of victory, no other bases left. Moreover, what they wanted to do in case of victory with damaged ships (and they would be in case of victory) - only God knows. And even come to the squadron in Vladivostok, they would not be able to prevent the Japanese from supplying troops. From him to their communications far.
        1. +4
          23 June 2019 21: 58
          with those cadres who served under the direction of Rozhdestvensky


          if all ships are "Disabled Shelter" and "Prostitute Podzabornaya"
          if the subordinates are at best "a hanger for a guards uniform" - the site still removes the best quotes from the ZPR
          if the wife is a dumb fatty trust which is fisted, but under the table

          maybe something was wrong in ZPR itself, and not in the whole world around it?
  5. +10
    23 June 2019 19: 17
    The author stubbornly continues his attempts to justify the mediocre Admiral Rozhdestvensky.

    To be honest - already tired. But again I have to comment ...
    Thus, the Russian commander did everything so that the Japanese with all their forces fell upon the left column, diverging from it in the counter course

    There is not the slightest reason to believe that Togo intended to repeat his mistake in the Yellow Sea, and will engage in battle on counter-courses. Moreover, it is noticeable that the whole battle under Tsushima was reduced to the successive staging of Togolese admiral between the Russian forces and the course towards Vladivostok. Do Russians need to go there? So let them break through .. A completely obvious solution.

    Z.P. Rozhdestvensky started rebuilding immediately as soon as he saw the main forces of the Japanese, but he rebuilt very slowly, increasing the speed to 11,5 knots. and only slightly (about 9 deg.), turning successively at the intersection of the course of the left column.

    The sounded figure of 9 degrees flashed only in the testimony of Rozhestvensky. (and then he like 8 degrees. remembered). All the rest showed that the first detachment was moving at an angle of 30-45 degrees! A long delay with the maneuver is associated exclusively with the inhibitory reaction of the admiral. Before ZPR everything came very slowly .. Like a giraffe.

    ehh .. again, problems with the topvar editor .. :( I'll try to continue with the second call.
    1. +10
      23 June 2019 19: 45
      It is well known that the greatest length of the battleships of the Borodino type was 121,2 m, and they marched at intervals of 2 cables. Accordingly, the length of the column of the 1st armored detachment ranged from 8,6 cables from the Suvorov stem to the stub of the closing Eagle.

      The author as usual contradicts himself .. 8.6 cable? laughing

      If someone did not notice on the diagram (and in the calculations), the author draws 8 kb. In reality, it is enough to recall how crooked and difficult the turn maneuver of the 1st detachment was. Who "consistently" who "all of a sudden" tossed back and forth for a long time. Obviously, the real distance was much more than 8 kb. and witnesses talk about 15-18 kbl between units.

      Frankly, all the further figures of the author, a couple of screens long, are not worth a penny. A brief conclusion. ZPR disrupted the rebuilding of the squadron.

      In other words, Z.P. Rozhdestvensky obviously wanted to rebuild the main forces into a single wake column, regaining control, but how could his flagships have guessed about this?

      And this is the second key point of the battle! Of course, the flagships had no idea about the plans of the ZPR, since he not only did not bother to familiarize his commanders with them, but also directly gave an order for the entire squadron. "Follow Matelot"! This means that in any case, both admirals and ship commanders must follow the course of the ship in front. Our friend Andrey doesn't seem to understand that this stupid order was one of the main reasons for the Tsushima disaster.

      This error is considered a signal Z.P. Rozhdestvensky, which he raised immediately after his flagship turned to NO23: “The 2nd squad to be in the wake of the first”

      Our friend from Chelyabinsk does not seem to understand that this figure - NO23 - is an unconditional sentence to Rozhdestvensky as the worst of the admirals in the last 200 years .. If anyone does not understand, Nord-Ost 23 is the shortest course to Vladivostok. Rozhdestvensky, in principle, did not pay attention to the Japanese when giving his orders! And this despite the start of the battle .. This admiral is really dumb like a cork! With the NO23 rate, ZPR brought both flagships directly to the execution of the Japanese. That same crossing-T Rozhestvensky made for himself!

      You can only repeat what I said earlier. Any of the younger flagships would conduct the Tsushima battle an order of magnitude better. The catastrophe of Tsushima is the personal fault of Rozhestvensky and the one who appointed the not far-off tyrant to such a high position.
    2. +8
      23 June 2019 19: 54
      Nobody doubts the mediocrity of Rozhdestvensky. The mediocre was the one who allowed this war.
      1. +4
        23 June 2019 21: 33
        Kamrad Nmkomed, undoubtedly Bezobrazov (the surname corresponds) did a lot, which prompted the war. Nikolai's fault2 that he gave free rein to Bezobrazov and K. But the war was inevitable: the Japanese began to pretend to the Russians from the beginning of the 19th century. Read Golovin. Who knows, maybe Outrage "gave" a pretext for war?
        1. +2
          23 June 2019 21: 52
          Yes, all this is understandable. But how spineless it was to be! And theft? I recently read a book about the Russo-Japanese War. Seven thousand wagons with ammunition, fodder, ammunition, food disappeared in an unknown direction. But were they at all?
          1. +1
            23 June 2019 22: 07
            And Nicholas 2 was a weak-minded person that has long been known. I have a negative attitude towards the monarchy, but in some ways I even feel sorry for Nicholas. He sincerely wanted the best, he was a good family man, they caught him on this, but his weaknesses negate his lack of will. Inside the family drama: the conflict between the mother-in-law and the daughter-in-law, but this is another plane
            1. +6
              23 June 2019 22: 22
              Indeed, Nicholas II was a very good family man, but could not even save his family ... And he could, if desired. Now they will begin to say that the cousin, King of Britain George refused him asylum, but Nikolay had a lot of places where he could send his family privately. However, he did not ...
              1. +1
                24 June 2019 21: 06
                Colleague Nycomed, where do you see: "a lot of places" where Nikolai could hide his family? I am not a monarchist, but an ordinary inhabitant. As I argue: whether it was the Golitsin or Demidov family, it could have been taken to any neutral or union country, and the Romanovs are a public family, they cannot be hidden privately. However, this is the fate of ALL leaders of states or any celebrities: if the foreign country has its own "hut" and quietly come, then you can live unnoticed for a while, but political or financial enemies guard every step. For example, the Romanov family took refuge in Sweden, so that Germans, emigrants of ANY shades, will not see them there. They will see and raise a noise - at least, but it is quite possible, the option of being taken hostage.
                My opinion: in private, they almost did not hide
            2. -4
              25 June 2019 01: 45
              And Nicholas 2 was a weak-minded person that has long been known.

              Who has "known for a long time"? Have you "known for a long time"? And how did you know this "for a long time"?
              Mary-bath in the first grade told, apparently?

              But I "have known for a long time" that Nikolai was a very smart and strong-willed person - much smarter than our friend Nycomed, and even much smarter than me. And strong-willed, yes.

              Enough to retell nonsense from the newspaper "Pionerskaya Pravda".

              One of Nicolas’s problems was that he was very well-mannered and respected people: that is, in the face did not hit right away. And the Russians do not understand this: "does not like us, means". And again, "mean weak-willed." Because if I was strong-willed, I would definitely hit in the face right away.

              This is a collision of Hamlet, who was ahead of his time, and a wild Asian environment.
              1. +1
                25 June 2019 21: 45
                Quote: AK64
                I have "known for a long time" that Nikolai was a very smart and strong-willed person


                And what books about Nicholas II did you read?
          2. -4
            25 June 2019 01: 38
            Yes, all this is understandable. But how spineless it was to be! And theft? I recently read a book about the Russo-Japanese War. Seven thousand wagons with ammunition, fodder, ammunition, food disappeared in an unknown direction. But were they at all?


            You know, I am one of the very few who personally treat you well.
            But be silent already, huh? Maybe you should not share the ideas read in the magazine Twinkle of 25 years of freshness? You are not a stupid person, so just finally understand that you are just talking about it ... you don’t know anything.

            Not so it was all, not so.
        2. +4
          23 June 2019 21: 54
          It was necessary to immediately agree: Russia guarantees Japan the whole of Korea, Japan guarantees Russia all of Manchuria and the PA = no war, on the contrary, best friends and allies forever = peaceful expansion to China is ensured and hands are untied in Europe and Asia

          "Greed ruined the fraer" (c)
          1. -2
            25 June 2019 01: 34
            It was necessary to immediately agree: Russia guarantees Japan the whole of Korea, Japan guarantees Russia all of Manchuria and the PA = no war, on the contrary, best friends and allies forever = peaceful expansion to China is ensured and hands are untied in Europe and Asia


            Oh my God....

            Well why, why why people who know so little - so loudly share their opinions?
            1. +1
              25 June 2019 09: 00
              well why people who know so little


              oh, enlighten me: what prevented the tsar from turning Witte and Co., not starting the "Bezobrazovskaya clique", on which Witte and Co. hung all their intrigues?
              1. -1
                25 June 2019 10: 18
                enlighten me: what prevented the king from turning Witte and Co.,


                Speech, including "agree": I understand that you do not know (as usual) --- but the point is what exactly and "agreed". But Russia, namely Russia, at the suggestion of Witte, began the agreement .... to break.
                At the same time, Witte instilled in the tsar "yes, we must disarm!" and "Japan simply cannot fight - they have no money." (That's right - that's just the money for the Japanese war have given)

                Well, about
                enlighten me: what prevented the king from turning Witte and Co.,

                You can hang it - that's just WHAT? ON WHAT grounds?
                After all, the Tsar is not a lawless man --- and for every sneeze, at least some reason is needed. What were the reasons Witte fired? Ah ... no. As soon as the grounds appeared - so immediately ... Witte went ... to Copen-Hagen.

                Let me remind you, Witte was Minister A-3. And Nikolai Alexandrovich was a YOUNG man, he became tsar too early (and he thought so himself), and too unexpectedly for himself. And therefore, in the beginning, he tried with all his might to continue his father's policy and obeyed his father's advice. And the uncles - who shouted "Nicky, you are still young, you do not know - but we wish you well !!!!"

                And whom was he to listen to? After all, you weren’t there, right?

                Well, when these advisers (including uncles) brought the country to revolutions - then Nikolai Alexandrovich sent uncles ... to rest from work, and began to steer himself. An economic upturn followed, with the pace of recovery quite American.
                1. +2
                  25 June 2019 11: 04
                  Sir, don’t be rude, just read the Shacillo collection about preparing for the REV, so for self-development

                  Well, I don’t argue much with the role of Witte, and I will remind you tactfully about loans for reparations

                  but about who and how doubted Japan’s ability to implement program 6 plus 6, also read

                  And the results of staff games about the upcoming war with Japan, too, study

                  Maybe you will become more tolerant of the fact that the world is more complex than you think
                  1. -4
                    25 June 2019 11: 22
                    Sir don't be rude

                    I’ve already told you that you are the boor here?

                    , just read the collection of Shacillo about preparing for the REV, so for self-development

                    (1) And here is an example of your rudeness
                    (2) You see what the matter .... I call it "one book syndrome". I explain slowly: in history, reading one book is usually not enough to draw at least some conclusion. There is a LOT to read. And even this is not enough - because, for example, in the USSR (that is, in Russian), all authors wrote in principle the same thing.

                    So you read one book - well done. But this baggage is not enough to judge a problem. Why do you think colleagues delve into Japanese sources, in English sources?

                    Well, I don’t argue much with the role of Witte, and I will remind you tactfully about loans for reparations

                    And here you are right too. But ... this is again the same SJV. Wherever you dig, everywhere He is the same. It's just some kind of demon

                    Maybe you will become more tolerant of the fact that the world is more complex than you think

                    In the mirror, Dear, in the mirror! After all, you judge Rozhdestvensky on the basis of ONE-only and sharply biased book - Tsushima (which should be immediately thrown into the oven). After all, it’s you, not knowing anything about the policy and practice of appointing commanders of ships and flagships, that they have arranged a dispute here for 30 comments --- with people who know about it.
                    So in the mirror, Dear
                    1. +2
                      25 June 2019 11: 26
                      It’s clear that you haven’t seen the materials of staff games for the preparation of the war with Japan.

                      And not even overpowered Shacillo negative
                      1. -4
                        25 June 2019 11: 42
                        About how!
                        I didn't even master the tsushima ....

                        But I read in English (without Google). (Yes there, I write on it.) And I was actively interested in this topic about 25 years ago. Yes, yes - then Runet was in its infancy (and Shura ABAKUS - aka Nikolai Chernovil - was relatively young).

                        But you, for example, what did you do 25 years ago?

                        In general, you once again confirm the conclusion that you are a boor: in this case, you immediately (right away !!!) switched to personalities - and this in itself in any conversation actually ... "drain ": the person who has gone over to the person has already leaked any dispute, he has NO arguments.
                2. +1
                  25 June 2019 11: 04
                  Sir, don’t be rude, just read the Shacillo collection about preparing for the REV, so for self-development

                  Well, I don’t argue much with the role of Witte, and I will remind you tactfully about loans for reparations

                  but about who and how doubted Japan’s ability to implement program 6 plus 6, also read

                  And the results of staff games about the upcoming war with Japan, too, study

                  Maybe you will become more tolerant of the fact that the world is more complex than you think
        3. -2
          25 June 2019 00: 09
          Kamrad Nmkomed, undoubtedly Bezobrazov (the surname corresponds), did a lot that pushed the war.

          Yes, where does that Bezobrazov? Witte was the one who tried.

          But war was inevitable: the Japanese began to prejudice the Russians from the beginning of the 19th century. Read Golovin. Who knows, maybe Outrage "gave" a pretext for war?

          It is not inevitable: For example, if the Baikal tunnels were completed by the winter of 1904, then no war would have taken place. Or it would not have taken place if it had not been for the CER (a completely unnecessary thing). Or it wouldn’t have taken place, had there been a normal repair base in PA, and there would have been no need to drive boats around half the world.

          Yes, there are several factors. And Bezobrazov - such a trifle
      2. +1
        24 June 2019 16: 45
        It was a very strange war. And a strange theater of operations.
        For what purposes, huge funds were invested in the arrangement of the port of Dalniy.
        Why the railway was brought to him.
        With whom were you going to trade through this port?
        This is the beginning of the twentieth century. There are no "Asian tigers" at all.
        Yes, and China market for what?
        "Opium Wars" is opium in exchange for silver.
        After the collapse of the British Empire, the British ordered a serious audit, and the auditors came to the conclusion that the so-called British Empire was ALWAYS a loss-making enterprise. The metropolis invested significantly more material resources in the colonies than it received. And this is not counting the loss of human resources by the mother country.
      3. -3
        25 June 2019 00: 05
        Nobody doubts the mediocrity of Rozhdestvensky. The mediocre was the one who allowed this war.


        How smart you are .... I'm just a bastard with you. And even trudge ....
        Who "did not doubt" the "mediocrity": You? So you, as I managed to notice, in general you can doubt very little - you do not succeed somehow, you consume more and more ready-made "truths".

        Christmas was brave and smart, and the motherland of the few brave, smart and at the same time the admiral (a rare combination).

        "Who allowed it," you say ???? This war was prepared by the world's most powerful secret service - it was very difficult to avoid it. That Russia (bast shoes, what to take) - they and "smart Germans" as the last suckers lit.
    3. -1
      23 June 2019 19: 54
      Quote: Saxahorse
      The voiced figure 9 degrees flashed only in the testimony Rozhestvensky. (and he like 8 grad. remembered). All the rest showed that the first squad moved at an angle 30-45 degrees!

      Well, in principle, you can just briefly turn on your head and think about where Rozhdestvensky was supposed to be, to get into the head of the column half an hour after the start of his maneuver, if he walked at 45 degrees and at a speed of 11-11,5 nodes
      1. +7
        23 June 2019 20: 09
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Well, you can, in principle, just turn on your head briefly and think about where Rozhdestvensky should have been

        Who told you that Rozhdestvensky had a head? I gave you an example of feedback from subordinate ZPR in this campaign. I have never met the worst opinions about my commander .. I repeat .. Christmas stupidity is like a traffic jam and in addition tyranny of the worst. Which he proved to our misfortune :(
        1. +1
          24 June 2019 20: 50
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Who told you that Rozhestvensky had a head?

          I'm not talking about his head, but about your :))))
  6. -4
    23 June 2019 19: 33
    It was not at the right time that Admiral Makarov died. Commanding a squadron, the result would be completely different.
    1. +3
      23 June 2019 21: 18
      This is undeniable. But Fortune is known to be blind
    2. 0
      24 June 2019 12: 08
      What Makarov, what Christmas products of the same system.
      Moreover, both active and technically savvy admirals (well, S.O. is more inventive).
      In the tactics and conduct of modern combat - both zeros. Just one was destined for a heroic death, the other - a shameful captivity.
      In the event of a battle on three slow-moving battleships of the first squadron against four newest and two older Japanese, the result would be the same as in Tsushima. And "Peresvet" and "Pobeda" would have fled back to Port Arthur.
      Makarov’s tactics - fleet waste in parts, without changing the overall strategic situation.
      So there was not a single acting admiral in this deck, only capraza issued.
    3. -2
      25 June 2019 01: 46
      It was not at the right time that Admiral Makarov died. Commanding a squadron, the result would be completely different.


      Exactly - they would not have sailed to Kamrani.
  7. +6
    23 June 2019 21: 32
    Good afternoon, dear colleagues!

    Let me make a couple of comments:

    The first monstrous mistake ZPR.
    According to the analysis of the battles of Shantung and Ulsan, he extremely overestimated the degree of resistance of armored ships to Japanese artillery and, at the same time, sharply underestimated its effectiveness. If the Japanese had achieved a similar number of hits and similar injuries, then 2 TOE would have retained all of its EDB following the results of a day's battle. With such an error, the ZPR is understandable and explainable its second error.

    The second monstrous error ZPR:
    Rebuilding in one column did not prevent crossing in relation to Suvorov in any way.
    Everything else is lyrics.

    A bit of theory:
    I completely agree that the 1 TOE line provoked Togo to diverge on the counter courses from the left column. At the same time, Togo would quickly and brutally smash Nebogatov's detachment, and Kamimura, maneuvering separately, would try to shoot at Suvorov from a long distance. This development of events was foreseen by the military orders of Togo. The indicated formation was, in fact, a proposal "Nebogatov's detachment is exchanged for Suvorov's position, five to ten miles closer to Vladivostok than Mikas." However, starting the rebuilding, the ZPR himself canceled all the benefits of his formation, not acquiring anything in return, but substituting both flagships under the concentrated fire of the enemy, which (what a surprise !!!) turned out to be much more destructive than he thought.

    And now a little cheeslery.
    As I wrote earlier, there is a funny "version of the name of Ushakov." The right column "Suvorov", "Alexander III", "Borodino", "Eagle", "Oslyabya" is moved forward by the flagship relative to the flagship of the central one ("Sisoy", "Navarin", "Nakhimov"), and that is relatively to the left ("Nicholas I ", 3 BBO). But this is already much closer to the level of Grandfleet and Hochseeflotte.

    And a little more theory:
    Seeing the failure of the maneuver of rebuilding in one column, the commanders of Borodino and Eagle had to enter to the right of Alexander III, while the Oslyabya and Sisoy rolled out to the left, the fact that this obvious maneuver did not come then no one is in the head of the merit of the totalitarian style of leadership of the ZPR. Is visible here

    The third monstrous mistake ZPR.
    He gouged all his subordinates, turning them into stupid robots, not able to act independently, but only to follow his instructions mechanically. Competent people with full power and responsibility can maneuver independently, cannot maneuver independently
    "bag of manure" and "empty space". ZPR could not form a squadron as a single close-knit team, therefore, she could not carry out any maneuvering except for the blind "NO 23". And there was no one to tell him about the error in the calculation and execution of the maneuver.
    1. +4
      23 June 2019 22: 15
      Colleague Shmelev, and doesn’t it seem to you that now we are all smart, but put yourself in the shoes of ZPR? For some reason I do not want to be in his place
      1. +3
        23 June 2019 22: 27
        now we are all smart


        I'll start with the third mistake: my deputy is not a "bag of manure", but the best specialist in his field in our region, so I trust him to "maneuver" on my own

        now about the second: I named the variant of constructing the "name of Ushakov", for a reason)

        and, finally, about the first: the chief of the general public school should think ahead with his head, now, if Novikov had commanded the squadron so, we would have forgiven him, probably, but he had to foresee ZPR
        1. 0
          24 June 2019 09: 54
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          my deputy

          One question: did you choose him yourself, or was he appointed to you because he is a relative of a member of the board?
          1. +2
            24 June 2019 10: 50
            he chose)

            Threat. Let's look at the points:
            who and how imposed ZPR against his will
            Bag of manure
            Empty place
            Coat hanger
            The Powerless Nihilist
            Varnished egoza
            Lustful bitch
            and further in order
            1. 0
              24 June 2019 11: 37
              Let's look at the points:
              who and how imposed ZPR against his will

              That is, the order of appointment to command posts in the RIF, you do not know? The correct answer is that nobody asked him at all :))
              But you yourself said about the "deputy"
              "Zama" ZPR did not have, because the flag-captain is not at all that. So only Voelkersam and Enquist can be considered as such. Dmitry Gustavovich, indeed, was a good admiral and it does not seem that Zinovy ​​Petrovich intimidated him, but he died. And the only virtue of Enquist was kinship with Avelan. And the first thing he did, having gained independence, was to flee from the battlefield. Nebogatov was not enough for that either.
              1. 0
                24 June 2019 12: 45
                That is, the order of appointment to command posts in the RIF, you do not know? The correct answer is that nobody asked him at all :))


                there is a formal side to the question, but there is the actual

                I am waiting for specific proposals of the ZPR on appointments that he did not agree on,
                I am waiting for specific appointments against which ZPR protested
                1. 0
                  24 June 2019 12: 49
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  I am waiting for specific proposals of the ZPR on appointments that he did not agree

                  I answered you - that's it.
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  I am waiting for specific appointments against which ZPR protested

                  There was only one admiral who decided not to give a damn about the will of the higher authorities in this matter. But ... he was very far from the Spitz, older in rank and position, and eventually died.
                  1. -1
                    24 June 2019 13: 02
                    So what kind of appointments did he not agree on?
                    Who didn’t agree on why, how did ZPR defend his team?
                    1. +1
                      24 June 2019 13: 15
                      Andrey, what is not clear to you in my answer? Everything is everything. You will not believe it, but the approval of the ship commanders was not the responsibility of the squadron chief. For this was the Admiral General, Minister of the Sea and the king. And even the GMSH (the position of the head of which corrected ZPR, notice only corrected) only served lists. And if the officer served the qualification and did not plunge into any history, then there is no formal reason to refuse him. The squadron chief could form his headquarters and ZPR did so
                      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                      how ZPR defended his team

                      you know, the states of the maritime department are not dimensionless.
                      “There are no assistants. There was one part of K ... (N. L. Klado. - V. G.), and that had to be returned. ” "Kind K ... K ... (K.K. Clapier de Colong. - V.G.) swiftly sworn enemy" ... "Why did he take such assistants? All were robbed by Alekseev, Makarov, Skrydlov. There are people who have been rejected by them ”...
                      1. -1
                        24 June 2019 15: 19
                        You will not believe it, but the approval of the ship commanders was not the responsibility of the squadron chief.


                        I’ll tell you an almost personal example: many years ago, my wife had to form a management in a very large corporation (with state participation), she set the condition - I personally select all employees and selected, all 27 people, and it didn’t scratch anyone who officially holds the competition according to STP and how to sign an employment contract in accordance with STP, if the boss is normal, he personally recruits a team, or does not fit into the subject

                        who prevented him from going to the king and saying: "either these 10 appointments, or I do not guarantee the result"?

                        Threat. cons are not mine, I do not do this
                      2. +2
                        24 June 2019 15: 44
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        I will tell an almost personal example:

                        not having the slightest relation to the situation.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        who prevented him from going to the king and saying:

                        democracy spoiled you :)))
                        Do you really not understand that the only consequence of this would be a squabble? Moreover, to no avail.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        cons are not mine

                        You can’t imagine how violent these minuses are to me :)
                      3. -1
                        24 June 2019 15: 50
                        Do you really not understand that the only consequence of this would be a squabble? Moreover, to no avail.


                        No, I don’t understand. It was necessary to convince the king to urgently conclude peace with the anime on mutually beneficial terms. It won't work, ok: save 2 TOEs. At worst: quickly finish the "Glory", "Alexander II" put in order, from the sausages with paddling pools to buy a little boats, and pull out a couple of battleships with the World Cup.
                      4. +4
                        24 June 2019 16: 06
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        No, I don’t understand.

                        noticeably.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        At worst: quickly finish "Glory"

                        Quite the opposite. - The only chance was to go straight away, without waiting not only for "Eagle", but also for "Suvorov", as the ZPR suggested. Only in this way did the second squadron succeed before the death of the PA and, accordingly, the PTE.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        buy a little sausages with paddling boats, and pull out a couple of armadillos with the World Cup.

                        unscientific fiction.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        It was necessary to convince the king to immediately conclude a peace with animeshnikami on mutually beneficial conditions

                        And what do you think that meant the report of ZPR from Madagascar? After all, Russian in white wrote:
                        The first squadron, which before the war had 30 warships of various ranks and 28 destroyers, was insufficient for mastering the sea. The second squadron, which has 20 combat ships and only 9 destroyers, is no longer able to capture the sea, because nothing remained of the first squadron except the armored cruiser "Russia
                      5. -1
                        24 June 2019 18: 45
                        Item 1.
                        only in this way did the second squadron succeed before the death of the PA and, accordingly, the PTE.


                        what did she do? break into a dying PA? than? - three new EDBs and nothing more? Yes, even to Vladivostok - how the breakthrough of three new EDBs there changed the course of the war?

                        Item 2.
                        unscientific fiction.


                        if the king is an eccentric, tactfully speaking, diplomats are patient, and admirals are pests, then unscientific

                        the British themselves didn’t give a damn about neutrality, having pledged a pair of new EDBs for Japan, who prevented Russia from taking measures to restore law (both legally and patently, it’s right) - in return, and to carry out a couple of EDBs through the Straits, and so on, even without buying ships
                        + "Glory" and "Alexander II" - shipbuilders guaranteed
                        + "Three Saints" and "Rostislav" are not a problem
                        + "Potemkin" could also be done if desired
                        = a different alignment of forces has been committed

                        Item 3.
                        reporting ZPR from Madagascar


                        very simple: before the tsar, he was acting like a new Nelson, and he himself was waiting for the ground forces to "impose on the macaques," therefore he scored on the implementation of paragraph 2

                        the lack of implementation of paragraph 2 of the ZPR had been foreseen in advance as an excuse in order not to go to war, and therefore was preparing to suffer a lot of time on the road

                        when it turned out that the ground forces would not "impose on the macaques" in the near future, but would have to fight on their own and without point 2, I finally got started with fright
                      6. +2
                        24 June 2019 19: 06
                        Sorry, but all that you wrote is complete and unconditional nonsense.
                        If you are talking about Japanese ships of the "Katori" class, then they were ordered before the war, but they were finished much after. And there is not the slightest reason to believe that if they were completed before the end of hostilities, the British would hand them over to the Japanese.
                        Translation of "Rostislav" and "Saints" from the Black Sea Fleet is impossible, even politically, even in a boyish way (there are no such words ... I have not heard an argument yet! These are five!) By the way, "Rostik" would not work technically.
                        Well, I won’t even talk about your assessment of ZPR. It's disgusting.
                        Let's finish before we talk to each other ...
                      7. -1
                        24 June 2019 19: 12
                        If you are talking about Japanese ships like "Katori", then they


                        laid 29.02.1904 and 27.04.1904

                        in a boyish way


                        Believe it or not, just such an argument is one of the most effective in the courts), not to mention different state bodies - first they think "like a kid", then they study the case (not always, of course, but often)

                        Have a nice day!
                      8. +1
                        25 June 2019 13: 48
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        laid

                        The key word is "ordered", because the path from order to bookmark is not at all short.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        You won’t believe it, but just such an argument is one of the most effective in the courts

                        Yes, without a bazaar, give a link to an interstate court in the early twentieth century, where such a wording would appear :)))
                      9. +1
                        25 June 2019 20: 42
                        Keyword - "ordered"


                        The Turks also ordered a lot from them.

                        give a link to an interstate court at the beginning of the twentieth century, where such a wording would appear :)))


                        Go to a serious court once a hundred. Understand the possibility of a huge difference between the actual process and the written solution. Then I recommend doing more exercise from the investment council to the prosecutor's office - the same thing everywhere. Only in the protection of consumer rights can one legally speak and get the law too) well, sometimes in a house management company
                      10. +1
                        25 June 2019 21: 14
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        The Turks also ordered a lot from them.

                        So the Japanese would have received exactly the same until the end of the war.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Go to a serious court

                        What does this stream of thoughts have to do with the Paris Convention on the Bosphorus and Dardanelles?
                      11. +1
                        25 June 2019 21: 37
                        What does this stream of thoughts have to do with the Paris Convention on the Bosphorus and Dardanelles?


                        to your question:
                        give a link to an interstate court at the beginning of the twentieth century, where such a wording would appear

                        I will repeat and very slowly my answer:
                        with the possibility of using a method for the development of a project Juridicheskiy u bazuz podtot, that about it and r and sh and l and about p
                        but it's nothing

                        but serious here:
                        Britain would never have entered into a military conflict with Russia, IMHO, since any reasonable option for the development of subsequent events would lead to European hegemony in Germany
                        yes even drop off a landing in Russia in the Bosphorus and even in Persia at the same time invade, all the same, the British would almost certainly have swallowed it, as if they had not shouted otherwise
                        Only the eccentric king, terpil diplomats and admiral pests did not understand this or did not want to

                        and more:
                        I have not read Vinogradov so much that I know that he did not analyze the possibilities of accelerating the delivery of components for the release of Slava in February 1905, and he looked after a lot of other things)

                        Best regards, hi
                      12. +2
                        25 June 2019 22: 23
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        I will repeat and very slowly my answer:

                        In other words, you do not have a link. And Plevako did not suffer such a hernia (in the language of Virgil).
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Britain would never be in the world

                        You forgot to add - IMHO. It is useless to argue with IMHO. But in fact, the precedent in violation of the Paris Convention did not rest against anyone, including France, Italy, Austria-Hungary and other Mediterranean players.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        I did not read Vinogradov

                        I understand that you have suffered, but this is definitely not for me :)))

                        ----------------------------------------
                        Just a thought in the ear. Why am I discussing with a man who thinks that if Kuropatkin won, Togo would have fewer ships?
                      13. 0
                        25 June 2019 22: 31
                        In other words - you do not have a link


                        it cannot exist in principle) but in fact this is constantly happening now, why couldn’t it be then? sounds quite logical

                        It is useless to argue with IMHO.


                        why? - you just need to bring any reasonable argument against which you can’t see, my IMHO seems to have arguments

                        but this is definitely not for me :)))

                        oops, here is wrong
                        it just added up, as I wrote that Melnikov’s books very much influenced my assessment of ZPR

                        if Kuropatkin won, Togo would have fewer ships

                        I don’t think so, I think that if Kuropatkin won, peace would be made
                      14. +1
                        24 June 2019 23: 38
                        Even as possible !!! The Turks would gladly have let them go, but they would not have let them go back, but there was one thing! To do this, ships should be members of the ruling imperial house
                      15. -1
                        25 June 2019 09: 35
                        Good morning, dear colleague!

                        I apologize for the obsession, but for many years I got this version in my head:
                        "The initial calculations about the arrival of the squadron in the theater of operations in December 1904 had to be revised after the battle on July 28 in the Yellow Sea. The first squadron, having scattered, lost its ability to withstand the Japanese fleet, and already on August 11, 1904, at a meeting in Peterhof under the chairmanship of Nikolai II, proposals were made that the task of the 2nd squadron should not be to reinforce the Pacific Fleet, but to seize the sea with its own forces. This required serious preliminary combat training, which could be achieved only near their bases. But the proposal to delay the squadron for this goal until the spring of 1905 was rejected at the insistence of the squadron commander, Rear Admiral ZP Rozhestvensky. " (c) Melnikov.
                        Actually, this is one of the starting points, whence my extremely negative attitude to ZPR.

                        Do you have refuting links? If anything, I will be grateful.
                      16. +3
                        25 June 2019 02: 52
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        who prevented Russia from taking measures to restore the right (both legally and patently, it is right) - in return, and lead a couple of EDBs through the Straits, and so on, even without buying ships

                        The British said that if our forces break through the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles, the Mediterranean squadron will block their path.
                        And even earlier, the same British bent on the Russian Foreign Ministry and forced Russia to stop cruising operations in the Red Sea, although these same operations were carried out in full accordance with generally accepted standards.
                        Details, up to the names of the English steamers arrested by our warships, are in the press of those years.
                        И thenand today the one who has more rights is right. Then it was England, today it is the States.

                        You have read little, colleague, but, sorry for the frankness, self-confidence you have above the roof.
                        Sometimes it seems that you simply troll.
                        So you write
                        At worst: quickly finish "Glory"

                        and those who read Vinogradov's monograph tears from laughter. They could not finish building "Slava" quickly, this is a myth long refuted by a serious and authoritative author with documents in hand.
                      17. -2
                        25 June 2019 09: 15
                        and those reading the monograph of Vinogradov


                        "Confident in his undertaking, S. K. Ratnik took the initiative to prepare for sailing the fifth ship of the series, Slava, launched in August 1904, by the fall of 1903." (Melnikov)
                        How long has Vinogradov become the standard of the only correct judgments?

                        if ours break through the Bosporus and the Dardanelles, the Mediterranean squadron will block their path.


                        Nobody bothered to answer something like this: "if he blocks it, we will lie down under the Germans." And not only would they not block it, but would also let it pass through Suez. How cute. IMHO.

                        I don’t argue, you read a lot, but you are extremely biased. And do not want to think about any other scenario.

                        And you just consider it axiomatic that only facts convenient for your version and things like extremely controversial Campbell numbers (an extremely authoritative historian - well, as the State Department asked him wassat ?)

                        If you realize that
                        "the tsar is an eccentric, tactfully speaking, diplomats are terpily, and admirals are pests"
                        You are completely right in this, dear colleague, there were no other options. But they could be in abundance.
                      18. +1
                        25 June 2019 10: 33
                        The British would not attack, as this automatically led to a war with France, with which there was a mutual assistance agreement in the event of an attack by European powers
                      19. 0
                        25 June 2019 17: 38
                        The British would not attack, as this automatically led to a war with France, with which there was a mutual assistance agreement in the event of an attack by European powers

                        You have already been told how, under pressure, the Russians were forced to stop cruising operations. Few?
                      20. 0
                        25 June 2019 20: 14
                        No. Enough. The British bred pigs on the show.
                        They hiccuped, the king of the eccentric, diplomats terpily and admirals pests tightened their tails. Because clinical. They would send the British and all the short life.
                      21. +1
                        25 June 2019 21: 15
                        No. Enough. The British bred pigs on the show.
                        They hiccuped, the king of the eccentric, diplomats terpily and admirals pests tightened their tails. Because clinical. They would send the British and all the short life.

                        Yeah. The British, without any war, staged riots in Russia for 3 years.
                        It is generally accepted that the money, they say, was Japanese. And even American ones. It is possible, and even probably so: "why waste yours?" The money is Japanese - but where did the Japanese get their agents in Russia? The money is Japanese and the agents are ... English. And all the outskirts in Russia blazed for three years. "Chushki", yes.

                        Anyone doubting? Well, the keywords for the search (for example, simply - as lying on the surface) --- "John Grafton". This is an absolutely monstrous story if you read it carefully!
                        "Chushki", yeah.

                        But the British had a lot of opportunities without war: they would block the straits for ALL ships going to and from Russia with their Mediterranean squadron - and ..... that's all. Or they would have sold a dozen more to the Japanese in the Mediterranean - and go and fight ...
                        But you never know ...

                        Here the Americans believe that there are two systems of laws: one for them - and the other for everyone else. Well, THEN the British in this would give modern amers a head start of 120 points.

                        PS: yes, and Russia already had this kind of experience: 50 years before, they also did not believe that Britain would intervene in the war that it absolutely did not need. Tell about the result?
                      22. 0
                        25 June 2019 21: 56
                        I know this, take it into account, but do not attach too much importance

                        Since for Britain any serious conflict with Russia put an unacceptably threatened alliance of the format Britain + France + Russia against Germany, that is, it would almost certainly result in the loss of British leadership in the world in favor of European hegemony in Germany

                        Therefore, by no means would Britain dare not use its opportunities, no matter how much it screams otherwise. I am not very afraid of dogs that bark. Almost always, dogs either just bark or bite right away. Or they are on a chain. Something like this.

                        And France, with its "la russie neo comte plu", is generally not like a juvenile deshovka, who wipes her neighbor on her desk about how Putin's son takes care of her and she will definitely agree if the boy does not give her a horse and doesn’t take her to the movies. Alas, the then leadership of the high school student was drawn to the maximum
                      23. +1
                        25 June 2019 22: 26
                        It is not possible to cause unrest in the country if in the country itself there are no prerequisites for them, so by! The British in your opinion and ... are you? -To block the oxygen to ourselves? Yes, the parliament simply would not give the green light to such an adventure as the complete paralysis of trade (which was the power of the British empire then). You write normal comments on AK64, but sometimes such nonsense slips at you ....
                      24. +1
                        25 June 2019 22: 58
                        It is not possible to cause unrest in the country if in the country itself there are no prerequisites for them, so by!

                        You simply do not know (as usual in your case).
                        You just do not know that the main battles were not fought on the "red fresh", but in Finland, the Baltic states, the Caucasus, ..... There were real battles --- a lot of troops had to be kept, the estates were completely cut out .... And not only estates.
                        That's all the "prerequisites".

                        Nationalism in foreign countries was supported and developed by ALL special services: the Austrians fed the Ukrainians, and the Russians - the Rusyns (and, perhaps, the Czechs). The Germans (and Americans) fed the Irish --- read about the Dublin uprising on occasion, be surprised. What about the "prerequisites"?
                        Intelligence agencies are not looking for "prerequisites" --- they create them
                        It’s not for nothing that the Americans broke the ethnic identity of the new immigrants: they knew very well how this would be used ..

                        In general, I will give you advice:
                        (1) carefully choose an expression when talking with polite and smart people
                        (2) before shaking the ether, study the question.

                        The British in your opinion and ... are you? -To block the oxygen to ourselves? Yes, the parliament simply would not give the green light to such an adventure as the complete paralysis of trade (which was the power of the British empire then). You write normal comments on AK64, but sometimes such nonsense slips at you ....

                        And where did you get the idea that the British traded strongly with the Black Sea? There are more French --- the Allies would have suffered. Again, it is possible to organize Russian property in different ways; they would confiscate "to compensate for the losses caused by the pirate actions of the Russians" (the Russians confiscated several ships with cargo - guess the affiliation) - and the French would be paid the price for what was confiscated .:

                        So the Russian cruisers violated the merchandise of them already. So why not answer?

                        Strange you, in general.
                      25. 0
                        25 June 2019 23: 19
                        In the Caucasus, there was no peace before Russia appeared there, so by. The Baltic states and Finland from the same series there nationalist tendencies have always been strong. And what does the Black Sea have to do with it? You write about the Mediterranean, and this is a completely different scale. In Ireland, you don’t need to foment anything, they still do not recognize themselves as subjects of the British crown. Well, throw some money on the fact that they already do it for free as old as the world. Do not compare auxiliary cruisers with the EDB squad. I repeat, if a single auxiliary, and even a light cruiser, can be managed to drown without consequences, then a detachment of a couple, three EDBs and cruisers would be problematic for France to enter the war. I strongly advise you to get acquainted with the political situation of that time, which was not in favor of Britain since the end of the 19th century
                      26. 0
                        25 June 2019 23: 37
                        In the Caucasus, there was no peace before Russia appeared there, so by.

                        (1) Are you again for yours, Mr. Ham? It was told to you - filter the bazaar. I understand that you have traded all your life in the market, I understand, and even condescend to your difficulties. But speaking is unpleasant.
                        (2) You just don't know what exactly started in the Caucasus (as well as in the Baltics in 1905-07). You can read a novel about Date Tutashkhia - these are, of course, Georgian nonsense and fairy tales, but "a fairy tale is a lie and a hint in it": if you translate into modern concepts, then there is about terrorists. A terrible little book, if the snot and syrup are removed, and interpreted correctly.

                        At this point, the conversation with you has ceased: I am a sage and an enlightened Tao, and even a nonsense by nature, and therefore I speak far from all.
                      27. +1
                        26 June 2019 00: 01
                        You leave your aplomb and self-conceit for a toilet where you can talk with yourself how ugly (I answer rudeness with rudeness)
                        p.s. learn political history, then you can understand why and how the wars began
                      28. +2
                        25 June 2019 22: 20
                        Well, let's say that not all admirals were such nerds, and not all idiots were on Pevchesky Bridge either, voices were heard against curtailing cruising operations ... Alas, they did not listen to them :(
                      29. 0
                        25 June 2019 23: 01
                        Well, let's say that not all admirals were such nerds, and not all idiots were on Pevchesky Bridge either, voices were heard against curtailing cruising operations ... Alas, they did not listen to them :(

                        "Thank God they didn’t listen", You mean?
                        They were provocateurs, in the service of .... For the non-curtailment of these operations would have to pay ... and very expensive.
                      30. +2
                        25 June 2019 22: 18
                        So what? Used only diplomatic channels. I agree that, if desired, the British could also drown the auxiliary cruiser. But it wasn’t possible to conceal such a squadron, but this is a war with France and Russia, to which Germany would certainly join, which at one time had been deprived of the colonies. Familiarize yourself with the political situation of the time, who pursued what goals.
                      31. +1
                        25 June 2019 17: 39
                        Yes sir! I will say more: any serious conflict between Britain and Russia automatically put an end to the plans for the creation of the Great Entente, that is, an end to Britain’s only opportunity to prevent the European leadership of the Germans. To say that Britain will decide on this for the sake of the Black Sea Fleet crossing the straits - beyond sanity, IMHO

                        And even if someone says about the unavailability of plans for the Great Entente at that moment, I won’t argue, I’ll just note that Schliffen considered the conflict between Britain and Russia to be the ideal condition for the immediate implementation of his plan, even in the form of a REV
                      32. 0
                        25 June 2019 17: 39
                        Yes sir! I will say more: any serious conflict between Britain and Russia automatically put an end to the plans for the creation of the Great Entente, that is, an end to Britain’s only opportunity to prevent the European leadership of the Germans. To say that Britain will decide on this for the sake of the Black Sea Fleet crossing the straits - beyond sanity, IMHO

                        And even if someone says about the unavailability of plans for the Great Entente at that moment, I won’t argue, I’ll just note that Schliffen considered the conflict between Britain and Russia to be the ideal condition for the immediate implementation of his plan, even in the form of a REV
                      33. 0
                        25 June 2019 17: 36
                        and those who read Vinogradov's monograph tears from laughter. They could not finish building "Slava" quickly, this is a myth long refuted by a serious and authoritative author with documents in hand.


                        Tears here certainly come out - but not out of laughter: what a laugh there is ....
                      34. 0
                        25 June 2019 20: 36
                        and those reading the monograph of Vinogradov


                        Those who read know that Vinogradov did not analyze, for example, the possibility of speeding up work by suppliers of components. Because - past the cash register, comrades.
                        And also, that between the release of the battleship in the fall of 1904 and in February 1905, there is still six months for work, why the devil is they rubbing me in that "Slava" could not go with the ZPR, if I was initially about what I could with Nebogatov?

                        Shl. Vinogradov himself wrote that in May 1904, work on the Slava was stopped, including with the direction of 1/3 of the workers at the plant to build submarines.

                        Maybe it's not just the bobbin (pah, that is, Witte), but also a bunch of lazy people, mediocrity and traitors? And the one who appointed them to high posts.

                        Zy.Zy. if anything - the disadvantages are not mine, I do not do this
                      35. +3
                        26 June 2019 17: 09
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        approval of ship commanders was not the responsibility of the squadron chief


                        Makarov changed almost half of the battleship commanders. I put Essen on Sevastopol.

                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        the states of the maritime department are not dimensionless.


                        Semyonov in "Payback" writes how Clapier-de-Colongg complains to him, they say, two or three officers have applied for each vacancy, and all the best of the best, the headquarters is already tortured from whom to choose.
                      36. +1
                        26 June 2019 18: 00
                        Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
                        Makarov changed almost half of the battleship commanders. I put Essen on Sevastopol.

                        that's just Essen and rearranged, and there were no more rearrangements. So "almost half of the battleship commanders" is your usual ... damn it, how not to offend ...
                        In general, as for me, this appointment can hardly be called correct. The most dashing commander of the cruiser was appointed to command the most miserable battleship.
                        And by the way, did I write about Makarov there, they forgot?
                        There was only one admiral who decided not to give a damn about the will of the higher authorities in this matter. But ... he was very far from spitz, older rank and positionfinally died.
                      37. 0
                        26 June 2019 22: 37
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        only Essen rearranged, and there were no more rearrangements.

                        Makarov demanded the resignation of the commanders of Sevastopol and Peresvet. Only one was approved. Do you remember the reason for this demand of Makarov? :)

                        But it’s precisely in the theme of the recent question about the high level of the RI commanding staff. :))
                  2. 0
                    24 June 2019 13: 05
                    Against whom exactly and how exactly did the ZPR protest? Why didn’t his protests take into account?
            2. 0
              26 June 2019 18: 05
              Colleague, I would like to clarify about the nicknames with which ZPR supposedly awarded ship commanders. Quite by accident (I’m not lying to God Yes ) I came across the following:
              The attitude of the commander? There were a lot of jokes, stories were not appeased about what he shouted, allowed to use loud words ... I heard a lot, but I myself was not a witness of such scenes. The admiral treated me just as mistrustfully, but always quietly, kindly and even friendly .... In Madagascar, there was a case with the destroyer "Bedovy". When examining the case, the admiral once again expressed a friendly disposition. I didn’t see or hear any loud words or sharp gestures from him. He explained this by the fact that he showed independence

              Testimony of the commander of the destroyer "Bystry" Captain II Rank Richter.
              https://dlib.rsl.ru/viewer/01005079885#?page=136
              And in this regard, the question is, was there a boy?
              In other words, are there at least some credible sources (other than Novikov) that the ZPR treated its subordinates in this way, or is it all at the rumor level?
              That is, it is clear that the person was tough and did not go into his pocket for a word, but, it seems to me, Alexey Silych, as usual, exaggerated ...
              1. 0
                26 June 2019 20: 08
                very practical question

                to be honest, offhand from historians I recall Melnikov’s habits of ZPR, but his categorical assessments of ZPR are well-known (not only I, but even Saksahorse is a big fan of ZPR against it)

                I’ll tell you, to be objective, one story:
                I once had a chief of the chief: with those to whom he treated well, he spoke exclusively with obscene words, but to whom it was bad - with emphasized politeness, in general, you go to his office, if "be kind ..." - you can think about a new job, and if "what is it" - about something very good
                so, one must seriously and objectively dig not only expressions, but also subtext

                why, while I have not seen such a study, I presume Novikov’s innocence? - from life experience, since the image of ZPR is extremely harmonious and consistent, for example, I have never seen a minimally adequate person whose deputies remain unaware of the plans of the operation

                maybe this is my professional deformation, but, until it has been extremely convincingly proved otherwise, I adhere to the version that I consider logical, consistent and consistent with standard laws, even if its evidence is slightly weaker than that of others

                Best regards hi
    2. +3
      24 June 2019 13: 04
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      According to the analysis of the battles of Shantung and Ulsan, he extremely overestimated the degree of resistance of armored ships to Japanese artillery and, at the same time, sharply underestimated its effectiveness.


      Actually, this was a surprise for V. I. Semenov, who participated in the battle at Shantung.
      However, it immediately struck me that the "suitcases", absurdly tumbling in the air and falling as it fell into the water, still exploded. This has not happened before ...

      And in addition to the use of high-explosive shells:
      - What? a familiar picture? Sounds like July 28th? - leaned out of his tower restless Rare.

      “The exact same thing!” - I answered with a confident tone, but it was insincere: it would be more correct to say - "it is completely unlike" ...

      After all, on July 28, for several hours of battle, the “Tsesarevich” received only 19 large shells, and I seriously intended in the upcoming battle to record the moments and places of individual hits, as well as their destruction. But where was there to write down the details, when it was impossible to count the hits! Such a shooting, I not only never saw, but also did not imagine. The shells poured continuously, one after the other ... (Japanese officers said that after the surrender of Port Arthur, in anticipation of the second squadron, they were so prepared for her meeting: each commander fired five rounds of shells from his gun when firing at the target. Then the worn guns were all replaced by new ones)

      Quote from the trilogy V. And Semenov "Reckoning" (chapter "Battle of Tsushima").

      So even the participant in the battle on July 28 was not ready for such a development of the battle, much less Rozhdestvensky, who had an idea of ​​the battle only by reports and oral descriptions.
      1. -1
        24 June 2019 15: 22
        so much Christmas


        ZPR - the head of the school, he was obliged to think ahead with his head. The rest is left excuses.
      2. +2
        24 June 2019 23: 17
        Semenov's book is part of literary hoax.
        What shells rained down?
        1. I have repeatedly reminded that 6 "shells are heavy for the Japanese.
        On average, they were inferior in mass to Europeans 10-20 kg.
        When the opportunity presented themselves, they switched to a 140mm caliber with a lighter projectile.
        2. Due to the fact that cordite charge gunpowder was used in British guns, the barrel quickly burned out. The barrel was designed for 80-120 shots.
        Did the Japanese change guns FIVE times on their ships?
        3. Japan was not such a rich country. I bought ammunition, and the commandants could not, in anticipation of the second squadron, use up FIVE ammunition per gun.

        PS That's how the story fell. Humanities composed it, and when the techies decided to check it, then ...
        1. +4
          25 June 2019 09: 31
          Quote: ignoto
          Semenov's book is part of literary hoax.


          Another expert?
          Who are you to fault a witness who has been in naval battles and injured?
          What did you write?
          Who translated you and used your works?

          The future grand admiral Erich Raeder participated in the translation of Semenov’s books and considered his work:
          I made a translation of half of the Russian epic about the war at sea "Reckoning". The second half of the book was translated by Lieutenant Gerke. The study of this highly relevant work of the Russian naval officer Captain Vladimir Semenov was part of the general training of each naval officer on the eve of the First World War.


          That is, on the eve of World War I, officers of the Hochzeflotte study Semenov’s book as an obligatory source for real military operations, and the future grand admiral translates it, who considers the book very useful.
          And a couple of ekpedra, who did not even manage the tugboat, categorically declare about "literary hoaxes" :))
          Do you even have a boatmaster's certificate - "expert" for VVP or MP?
          These are the ignoramuses of the Germans - they read Semenov - they purged Jutland :))

          Have fun.
        2. 0
          26 June 2019 13: 44
          Quote: ignoto
          3. Japan was not such a rich country. I bought ammunition, and the commandants could not, in anticipation of the second squadron, use up FIVE ammunition per gun.


          And carefully read what Semyonov wrote about this: ... "The Japanese officers said that after the surrender of Port Arthur, in anticipation of the second squadron, they were so prepared for its meeting ..."

          That is, the author indicates the source - "according to the Japanese officers," and he does not call to believe it or not.
          And it is not indicated - on one ship, on several or in the whole fleet, training firing was carried out in this volume.
          Replacing all the trunks also looks exaggerated, possibly on individual ships.

          Nowhere in his work, Semyonov does not assure that it was so - he refers to the "Japanese officers" as a source of information - and where is the "essay" here?

          In general, it is customary in the army to accept available information and even if it is impossible to verify it, to bring it to the attention of a higher management, who has more opportunity to double-check it.
          Semenov received this information in captivity - this is important information about the combat training of the Japanese fleet, if it was not taken into account at the Moscow State School, then he had the right to bring it to the fleet officers through a book and the public.

          For its time - a very bold and very useful book from a participant in events.
      3. -1
        24 June 2019 23: 52
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        Quote from the trilogy V. And Semenov "Reckoning" (chapter "Battle of Tsushima").

        Semenov is the worst of all possible witnesses. Let me remind you that he miraculously turned his back on the wall for surrendering the destroyer Bedovy and the outbuilding Admiral Rozhdestvensky himself.
        1. +3
          25 June 2019 09: 14
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          Quote from the trilogy V. And Semenov "Reckoning" (chapter "Battle of Tsushima").

          Semenov is the worst of all possible witnesses. Let me remind you that he miraculously turned his back on the wall for surrendering the destroyer Bedovy and the outbuilding Admiral Rozhdestvensky himself.


          Yes you?
          And in the Translation of Raeder (Raeder Erich) - the future gross admiral from Russian (he translated half), his book was a textbook for Hochseeflotte officers - was considered an important source of an eyewitness. And then, this naval officer held a radically opposite opinion and subsequently held a very high position in the navy.
          I quote:
          During my service in the Department of Public Relations of the Navy, I translated half of the Russian epic about the war at sea, "Reckoning." The second half of the book was translated by Lieutenant Gerke. The study of this highly relevant work of the Russian naval officer Captain Vladimir Semenov was part of the general training of each naval officer on the eve of the First World War. It was this work, Reckoning, that provided Frank Tissa with the basic details for his great work, Tsushima.

          http://militera.lib.ru/memo/german/raeder_e/02.html

          At least one fact - why should I listen to the empty, and not to the opinion of the Grand Admiral?
          1. -1
            25 June 2019 23: 40
            Quote: DimerVladimer
            At least one fact - why should I listen to the empty, and not to the opinion of the Grand Admiral?

            Why is Dmitry so aggressive? I read Semyonov's book and immediately noticed excessive emotionality. But I found not enough details there, reading for young romantics. And he also carefully read the minutes of the tribunal in the case of surrendering the destroyer Bedovy without a fight. And I saw a huge amount of lies performed by the same Semenov. And the sentimental fantasies of how he was crawling on all fours to the bridge .. Take it and read it yourself before we set such a "person" as an example ..
            1. +1
              26 June 2019 11: 49
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Why is Dmitry so aggressive?


              Sorry - not the slightest aggressiveness, rather sarcasm for the categorical "worst possible witness."
              Raeder, as we see, did not think so.
              Semenova read more than once - the only witness who compared the Japanese fire in two different battles.
              Of course, every author exaggerates something or doesn’t write exactly (intentionally or due to poor memory or wounds / contusion, it is fantasizing), but to refuse a witness from the flagship armadillo for some inconsistencies is too much.
              I did not expect from you.
              In modern historical science, not only documents, but also the testimonies of eyewitnesses are equated with historical evidence, until their credibility has been disproved.
              1. 0
                26 June 2019 22: 24
                Quote: DimerVladimer
                Sorry - not the slightest aggressiveness, rather sarcasm for the categorical "worst possible witness."
                Raeder as we see - did not think so

                I think I was trying to justify my sharply negative attitude towards Semenov. A man known as a science fiction writer and, in addition, with a reputation as a dodgy traitor, can in no way be considered a reliable witness to events.
          2. +1
            26 June 2019 19: 33
            Quote: DimerVladimer
            The study of this highly relevant work of the Russian naval officer Captain Vladimir Semenov was part of the general training of each naval officer on the eve of the First World War


            The price of "Reckoning" as a historical source is zero. Take, for example, how Semyonov meets and talks with an unnamed Japanese, a participant in the Hull incident. Semyonov remained the last person on the planet who believed in the Japanese in the Hull incident, therefore he shamelessly invented and molded fictional characters into his "diaries" who were not fed with bread, let Semyonov confess this carefully hidden crime. In addition to dialogues with fictional characters, Semenov is completely devoted to the everyday details of life in captivity of Admiral Rozhdestvensky. A simple battalier walks through the barracks, collects stories about the Tsushima battle from the sailors in a notebook, and the head of the naval department of the headquarters, who is supposedly supposed to do this, does not ask anyone, but writes in detail what Rozhestvensky ate for breakfast, lunch and dinner, how and where he slept, and all sorts of "fighting episodes", how Rozhdestvensky throws banknotes in the face of a Japanese soldier so that he, a brute, can buy eggs, and a surprised soldier on all fours collects these banknotes (it should be read that the admiral is here as would be very brave).

            As a tactical textbook, the price is the same - round zero. First, Semyonov serves on the "Angara", then on the "Diana". "Diana" does not participate in any battle until July 28. On July 28, "Diana" carries out an order to stay out of the zone of falling of Japanese shells and only at the very end a short skirmish with two or three Japanese cruisers. Semyonov's entire combat experience is actually limited to these few minutes. As far as I understand, the senior officer at that time was obliged to be not on the bridge in battle (so as not to die immediately along with the commander). The commander does not hold any discussion of any tactical issues with him either before the battle or in battle. Lieven can be understood, they sent here through the pull of some inexperienced lieutenant from the transport. Let him first get used to the boatswain's duties. In addition to deck work, Semyonov is also busy talking with the aim of strengthening the durability of the l / s and after the battle - the fight for survivability.

            We read "Payback" further. Well, a stop in Saigon, a boat trip, we are not interested in this, we are leafing through.

            In the campaign of the 2nd squadron, Semenov, as he himself writes, is a passenger. The admiral does not share military plans with anyone except Sventorzhetsky, and even Semenov, although he is a friend, never invites him to his cabin. The headquarters announces a boycott to Semenov (Semenov explains this boycott with black envy of his supposedly too close position to the admiral, well, let’s not argue). Those. the whole trip he just loiters on the ship. All events on the squadron are described precisely as observations of an outside person. Let’s go, anchor, withdrawn from the anchor, go, get up again. Semenov’s attempts to speculate on issues of tactics and strategy are incredibly stupid, and the idea of ​​the situation is fundamentally wrong (for example, the same Gull incident, the appearance of supposedly Japanese cruisers in Singapore). Next battle. In the beginning of the battle, Semenov is on the bridge and, based on observations, gives his (erroneous) interpretation of the admiral’s maneuvers. Then he descends into the battery deck, where he seems to be leading the struggle for survivability or just messing around, he sees his and Japanese ships only occasionally, peering upstairs from the hatch for a short while. Again he sees through the eyes of an uncomplicated person. Even these short episodic observations are full of stupid things like flashing paint on board and somersaults.

            Why were the German officers forced to read this rubbish? Let's see through the eyes of the Germans. They will soon be at war with Russia. In war, an officer must be well aware of the strengths and weaknesses of the enemy. There are no problems with strengths. The naval attaché sits in St. Petersburg and sends reports on naval parades and reviews, celebrations for the laying and launching of ships (where he is necessarily invited), officially published reference data, with this order. But how else to balance the picture so that the German officers do not have an alarmist mood? Some kind of fried material, a kind of critical look from the inside. Does Semenov's book reflect the negative aspects of the Russian fleet? Oh yeah! Admittedly, there is plenty of that. I think the Germans with their Prussian discipline were especially amused by the stories of how the boatswain walks on the deck and calls out to fellow countrymen to "help". Or that Russian ships have been mothballed for 9 months a year. They cannot swim, cannot maneuver, collide and break. And then it gets worse. The speed of one newly built battleship is almost two times lower than the design speed! And the other can just overturn at the turn! How! And the third one is even afraid to experience this Russian fool. And the commanders of the newest ships are still preparing to sink at the quay wall. At the Marine Technical Committee - round. But what is there, take it higher: the entire naval bureaucracy is round. Everywhere fools and everything is wrong. And the sailors! Starting from the Strait of Malak and up to Tsushima itself, Rozhdestvensky every night, or even three times a night, arranges mine alarms. Three months (!) Of nightly mine raids. If there are three mine alarms per night, then daytime alarms are not enough for this. Well this is how much a Slavic monkey needs to be trained so that it learns to run to the cannon! In general, the conclusion for the German sailors is this: if we are here with England to fight, then we can simply not pay attention to the Russian Untermenshes. If the Japanese are with one left, then we are generally one little finger. And if they are suddenly attacked, then they generally only run chaotically. No wonder they were one battle cruiser to Sevastopol, where six of any, but still, battleships, flooded. Minefields and coastal batteries. Or the story of Magdeburg. How one should underestimate the enemy. I think the Germans really liked such views on the Russian fleet before WWII, they really encouraged them.
  8. +2
    23 June 2019 21: 35
    Andrey, anyway, thank you for your story. ALL of your stories are interesting to me.
  9. +1
    23 June 2019 22: 15
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    with those cadres who served under the direction of Rozhdestvensky


    if all ships are "Disabled Shelter" and "Prostitute Podzabornaya"
    if the subordinates are at best "a hanger for a guards uniform" - the site still removes the best quotes from the ZPR
    if the wife is a dumb fatty trust which is fisted, but under the table

    maybe something was wrong in ZPR itself, and not in the whole world around it?

    In terms of idealizing ZPR, this is not for me, but for the author of the article. Everyone was good there. RI had systemic problems, and everything else is a consequence. Although in my opinion the level of command staff in the empire was higher than now or in the USSR. It’s just that the opponents weren’t bored either in Japanese or in PMV. After 30 years, Germany and Japan will try to divide the world.
    1. +4
      23 June 2019 23: 56
      Quote: Demagogue
      Although in my opinion the level of command staff in the empire was higher than now or in the USSR.

      The level of the command staff of the Republic of Ingushetia was much worse than in the USSR. I'm not ready to talk about today. The level of education seems to be high (although there are great doubts), but the motivation is negative. Suffice it to recall that of all the ships of the 1st Pacific Squadron, only Rurik died in battle. All others more or less successfully self-destructed. A squadron the size of a Japanese fleet disappeared without a trace at the behest of its commanders. Can this be called a "high level of command staff"?
      1. +1
        24 June 2019 09: 53
        All the rest more or less successfully self-destructed


        I correctly understood that you classified Novik, Sevastopol, and Varyag in the category of “successfully self-destructed”?

        And "Dmitry Donskoy" from the 2nd TOE, in your opinion, also "disappeared without a trace at the behest of its commander"?
        1. 0
          24 June 2019 23: 58
          Quote: Ivanchester
          I correctly understood that you classified Novik, Sevastopol, and Varyag in the category of “successfully self-destructed”?

          Let me remind you that the Varyag was the first in this cohort of self-drowned. And it was Rudnev's rewarding, in fact, for cowardice that opened this Pandora's box. Fathers-commanders immediately understood: "but it turns out that it is also possible" (c)

          But at the same time, I will remind you once again that half of the Varyag officers refused to sign the cowardly act on the destruction of the cruiser. So passivity and cowardice are diseases of the highest command staff of the Republic of Ingushetia. It is strange to read after that about the "high level of command personnel" of RI ..
          1. +3
            25 June 2019 10: 50
            Quote: Saxahorse
            Rudnev’s holding actually for cowardice


            A strange idea of ​​heroism and cowardice.
            I understand when a combat officer would say this, and who are you to blame those who went under Japanese shells?

            Absurd from the couch
            1. -1
              25 June 2019 22: 56
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              A strange idea of ​​heroism and cowardice.
              I understand when a combat officer would say this, and who are you to blame those who went under Japanese shells?

              Tell you, what about the punishment for cowardice to the officers of Varyag reminded by the senior officer of the cruiser, cap.2 rank Stepanov? Did you also delete him from the list of military officers?
          2. +3
            25 June 2019 10: 55
            In my humble opinion, the "Varyag" in the battle with the opposing squadron did not have a single chance either to win or to break through. Accordingly, the sinking of the cruiser after exhausting its combat capability was a completely logical decision.
            I consider it a serious mistake only that it was not blown up, since it allowed the Japanese to lift the ship and put it into operation already in their fleet.
            But my question to you was not only about the "Varyag" ...
            1. 0
              25 June 2019 23: 01
              Quote: Ivanchester
              In my humble opinion, the "Varyag" in the battle with the opposing squadron did not have a single chance either to win or to break through.

              Many copies were broken in the cycle of the same author about the Varangian. Let me remind you that in my opinion, even without any tricks, the cruiser had at least 80% chance of a successful breakthrough. None of the cruisers of this class were sunk in battle. Askold, Oleg, Aurora in a similar situation successfully broke through. And interned .. :(
      2. -1
        24 June 2019 17: 05
        The level of command and motivation are completely different things.
        The level was incomparably higher than in the USSR.
        The motivation of the command staff in the USSR was higher, but without the proper level of preparation, what did it lead to?
        To huge losses. Suffice it to recall the "Baltic Tsushima".
        1. 0
          25 June 2019 23: 08
          Quote: ignoto
          The motivation of the command staff in the USSR was higher, but without the proper level of preparation, what did it lead to?
          To huge losses. Suffice it to recall the "Baltic Tsushima"

          Controversial statement. It is enough to recall that the discharge of the 1st and 2nd Pacific squadrons directly contributed to the defeat on land and directly led to the first revolution of 1905. We see that the country's losses are enormous in the end .. And why do we need the RI commanding staff of this level but with such results?

          Not to mention that the humiliating defeat of Russia from Japan was an incentive for the beginning of the redivision of the world in Europe and removed the last obstacles to the WWII.
  10. +1
    23 June 2019 22: 30
    As for the NO23 course. Remember the results of the battle in the Yellow Sea. At the end of the battle, the squadron commander was killed, but the path to Vladivostok was clear. BUT!!! The fleet turned back into the trap of Port Arthur. As if a herd of lost shepherd :(
    1. 0
      23 June 2019 23: 06
      but the path to Vladivostok was clear


      belay

      and where did all the Japanese go?
  11. +13
    23 June 2019 23: 12
    If simplified:
    1) Two columns of Russian battleships nearly collided during the rebuilding.
    2) To prevent this, everyone slowed down to almost zero.
    3) Both flagship columns fell under the concentrated fire of the Japanese.
    4) There was a rout of both columns.
    5) Rozhdestvensky is a brilliant naval commander, but everything went wrong.
    1. +1
      24 June 2019 00: 05
      Quote: voyaka uh
      5) Rozhdestvensky - a brilliant naval commander, but everything went wrong

      It’s possible, of course, to turn the situation good
    2. +4
      24 June 2019 01: 06
      Good night, Alex. hi
      Here I flipped through everything, I also thought to join the discussion, but I read your comment and realized that there was nothing more to say. You have everything specifically and to a point, without chewing snot.

      Andrei’s whole misfortune, and I treat him with sincere sympathy, and so, all his misfortune is that he is trying to prove the unprovable, trying to imagine Rozhestvensky not who he really was. And he was a salon admiral, a parquet sharkun and a dumb oak tree. And he himself perfectly confirmed this under Tsushima, defeating his own squadron with minimal help from the samurai.
      The Japanese should put a monument to him next to the Togo monument, and, possibly, in an embrace. good
    3. +3
      24 June 2019 15: 17
      Warrior, regarding ZPR, far from all of this opinion.
      1. +1
        24 June 2019 15: 23
        Well, I wrote with irony. The author of the article considers him talented. I personally think that Rozhestvenny was an average naval commander.
        To carry out complex maneuvers with detachments of large ships, you need "cramming" - multiple rehearsals.
        Without them, success is always doubtful.
  12. +2
    24 June 2019 00: 08
    Quote: Saxahorse
    First, in "Meiji" it is written in black and white that Fuji opened fire on Suvorov

    Old friend, may you expand your horizons of knowledge.
    The British observer Jackson indicated in the report that it was "Fuji" who destroyed "Oslyabya".
    If you do not believe the Englishman, read the report of the battleship commander, there you will find information on exactly what time the fire was transferred to the Oslyabya, and at the same time the time of the hits.

    Quote: Saxahorse
    It is hard to imagine that a 12 "shell flew to Oslyabi for THREE minutes

    Nikolasha, why did you decide that the Fuji gunners hit the Oslyaby with the first 12 '' shell fired at it?

    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    is it definitely not about "Sikishima"?

    I offer you one thousand US dollars if you find in the title of this Japanese document
    第 4 号 富士 艦長 海軍 大 佐松 本 和 の 提出 せ る 軍艦 富士 日本 海海 戦 戦 闘 報告
    word
    "Sikishima"
    .
    1. -1
      24 June 2019 00: 14
      goofy google

      Fuji
      - pardon me
    2. +1
      24 June 2019 17: 29
      By the way, according to the results of sea battles of the first and second world wars, most experts came to the conclusion that it is not rational to concentrate fire on more than THREE ships on one target, they will not be able to adjust their fire.
      1. -1
        24 June 2019 20: 03
        except hose method
    3. 0
      25 June 2019 00: 20
      Quote: Comrade
      If you do not believe the Englishman, read the report of the battleship commander, there you will find information on exactly what time the fire was transferred to the Oslyabya, and at the same time the time of the hits.

      Postponed? And where was it transferred from? This is not there :) The report contains only the time, distance and name of the target, often of a general type. For example "battleship of the Borodino type" :))

      And yes, persistently ignore the direct indication of the distribution of targets in Meiji, and the main witness to present some kind of Englishman is of course a strong argument. :)
  13. +1
    24 June 2019 00: 15
    The author - Andrew, thank you for your articles, they are always interesting to read. I especially liked the cycles of materials about the state of the Russian Navy. You have done a great job. Recently re-read with great interest. But on the Tsushima battle, there are questions both to the ZPR and to you, since you are defending it. In addition to those already voiced by other comrades, I have one. If you argue that Baer could have begun to slow down the movement of his ship in advance and sent a signal to the entire convoy to slow down, what prevented Rozhdestvensky from doing the same at the very beginning of the maneuver and, in principle, eliminating the possibility of a mismatch?
    1. 0
      24 June 2019 00: 54
      Rozhdestvensky - overlooked AutoCorrect
    2. -1
      24 June 2019 18: 07
      Quote: VENOM
      at the very beginning of the maneuver and, in principle, exclude the possibility of misunderstanding?

      How could he give the order at the very beginning of the maneuver? Then everything was completely unobvious. And then, Andrei wrote that it was already difficult to assess the position of the terminal ships
      1. 0
        25 June 2019 13: 12
        Andrei wrote that it was already difficult to assess the position of the terminal ships

        Is it "difficult" to get to the left wing of the bridge?
    3. 0
      26 June 2019 09: 56
      If you argue that Baer could have begun to slow down the movement of his ship in advance and sent a signal to the entire convoy to slow down, what prevented Rozhdestvensky from doing the same at the very beginning of the maneuver and, in principle, eliminating the possibility of a mismatch?


      Only that Baer saw what was happening - and Rozhdestvensky, from the head of the column, --- did not see. IMHO, this is enough.

      PS: Below I spoke of Baer as one of the worst ship commanders. (Yes, yes --- were worse than Baer - but Baer bad.) And I explained why this is so: Baer was a sailboat to the core, and I did not understand and did not like steam technology. To understand what kind of person he was: Oslyabya was, as it were, NOT the ONLY ship (at least the only one I know) where ... where, after loading coal, they not only carried out a full cleaning, but also washed coal bags (!!!)

      IMHO, Baer just was not fit for the commander of the ship
  14. +3
    24 June 2019 00: 37
    On the second error - where in Ozerov's testimony is the contradiction of the Novikov-Priboy version? After all, he says that the 2nd and 3rd detachments had to reduce the speed in order to let Borodino and Eagle pass, what kind of 11 knots could there be? This is not a contradiction in the testimony, this is the commander's most gross mistake. Then he had to order to reduce the course of the left column!
  15. +6
    24 June 2019 10: 51
    But V.I. Baer did absolutely nothing, and his inaction ultimately led to the fact that the Oslyaba had to not only lose speed, but completely stop under enemy fire.

    V.I. Baer could well have reduced the speed beforehand, bypassing the battleships of the 1st detachment Z.P. Christmas. But even bringing the situation to the threat of a collision, he still could not go to the wake of the "Eagle"


    That's when the lack of a second flagship on Oslyab affected, and the commander was afraid to take the initiative.

    and go a little to the right or left, discarding the course and closing the Eagle or by yourself “hiding” behind it:

    Slightly correct based on the rules of navigation.
    If the first one is possible - deviation to the left, then the second option is absolutely impossible based on the elementary rules of navigation, which, when crossing the course, unambiguously determine the order of divergence - reduce speed and / or keep the course at the stern of the vessel crossing the course to the right (vessel divergence rules).
    And since the Eagle was on the back, then on the Oslyaby traverse, it was impossible to keep heading under the stern of the vessel crossing the course, and it violated previous instructions.
    Accordingly, this navigation task has only one solution - to reduce speed in advance and the last option is to deviate to the left. No RIGHT evasion is possible - it contradicts the elementary rules of navigation and leads to a collision.
    1. 0
      24 June 2019 16: 36
      Here in the comments there was a hit to the "Oslyabya" on the starboard side. Such a hit can only mean a failure of 90 degrees. So it turns out that there was not only a stop. Baer twisted as best he could, so much so that he was not even up to the signals.
      1. 0
        25 June 2019 08: 23
        Here in the comments there was a hit to the "Oslyabya" on the starboard side. Such a hit can only mean a failure of 90 degrees.


        This is a DESCRIPTION, a corny mistake

        And so the global theories begin to build from typos .....
        1. 0
          27 June 2019 17: 06
          All right.
          I add words to the comment passed)))
    2. 0
      24 June 2019 20: 53
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      No dodging right

      Thank you for the clarification!
  16. -3
    24 June 2019 11: 01
    Boris Galenin TsUSIMA - THE SIGN OF THE END OF RUSSIAN HISTORY The hidden causes of well-known events Military-historical investigation Volume II Book 3: Save Port Arthur. 2nd squadron: for Vera, Tsar and Fatherland.
    Gentlemen, read the book of this author I respect, and everything on this topic will become clear to you, especially if the Admiral of the Russian Imperial Navy Zinovy ​​Petrovich Rozhdestvensky was mediocre !!! It’s just a shame how our delusions and our ignorance allow us to categorically judge the hero of the Japanese-Russian war.
    1. 0
      26 June 2019 09: 42
      By the way, thanks for the recommendation - I’ll read it. Here are both volumes online: http://flibusta.is/a/147651

      PS: is it not funny that the participant who TOTALLY recommended the book was immediately thrown down the minuses? Well, aren't they strange people? I do not like the recommended book - well, just say so.
      Let's support Vlad and put the pluses, at least to zero: well, the person recommending the book did not deserve the minuses!

      PS: by the way it turned out that I had already read it, in 2015, and even rated it as excellent and recommended it. In general, I recommend it again. For free, online: http://flibusta.is/a/147651
  17. +2
    24 June 2019 13: 46
    Thank you very much, Andrey, for the analysis of Rozhdestvensky’s maneuver at the beginning of the battle.
    Alas, in my opinion, if he had turned out at least perfectly in your opinion, the outcome of the battle would have been the same.
    Togo and Kamimura utterly surpassed the tactics of modern naval battle of the unlucky Russian counterpart. They completely owned the initiative, and, as analysis shows, even more advanced shells could not save the Russian squadron from defeat.
    And there was a moment when the battle was almost equal (if finishing off the remnants of the Russian squadron can be considered an equal battle). I mean the final stage of the battle, when the squadron led by "Borodino" fought off the battleships of Togo that were catching up. And the lucky shot was at the Mikasa Co. The reason is slightly increased travel and reasonable maneuvering.
    Once again: the Korean Straight cannot be reached through the nine-node herd, only the high-speed toothed part of the squadron. At the same time, our power is slightly reduced, the remaining battleships participated in the battle periodically with minimal effectiveness, and maneuverability and controllability increase sharply.
    But Zinovy ​​Pavlovich did not dare to go for it, for which, during his lifetime, he is posthumously responsible.
    1. +1
      24 June 2019 17: 44
      Rather, the British were superior, not the Japanese.
      There is such a funny discipline.
      Psycholinguistics is called.
      The relationship of thinking and language is considered.
      In turn, the language acts as an operating system.
      Accordingly, thinking is carried out according to the rules and capabilities of this operating system.
      Need to say that the capabilities of linguistic operating systems are not equivalent?
      Experts in psycholinguistics, having studied the actions of the Japanese in WWII, came to extremely disappointing conclusions for the Japanese. The Japanese fought very well when they did everything according to a clear, very structured plan. Serious deviations from the original plan led to serious negative consequences.
      Up to a complete rejection of actions. Rigidity, lack of ability to quickly improvise.
      Actions of kamikaze pilots from the same series.
    2. 0
      24 June 2019 18: 11
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      only the high-speed toothed part of the squadron. At the same time, our power is reduced slightly, the remaining battleships participated in the battle periodically with minimal effectiveness

      So they survived because the main blow fell on Borodin residents. Nevertheless, they received part of the shells
  18. 0
    24 June 2019 14: 35
    Quote: Saxahorse
    Quote: Demagogue
    Although in my opinion the level of command staff in the empire was higher than now or in the USSR.

    The level of the command staff of the Republic of Ingushetia was much worse than in the USSR. I'm not ready to talk about today. The level of education seems to be high (although there are great doubts), but the motivation is negative. Suffice it to recall that of all the ships of the 1st Pacific Squadron, only Rurik died in battle. All others more or less successfully self-destructed. A squadron the size of a Japanese fleet disappeared without a trace at the behest of its commanders. Can this be called a "high level of command staff"?


    By a single politically motivated episode, one cannot judge the level. We must generally look. For example, RI approached WWI with strong allies. The war until the crash was waged essentially on foreign territory. Yes, there were many problems, but the cadets near Moscow did not stop the Germans in 1914. As for the fighting at sea performed by the Bolsheviks, what is the only Tallinn crossing worth.
    Before the revolution, we could build dreadnoughts ourselves, and this is how to build a full-fledged aircraft carrier in our time. What we cannot now. The problems of RI were serious and many, but there were pluses.
    1. 0
      24 June 2019 15: 40
      Demagogue, about the allies, I am not with
    2. +3
      24 June 2019 16: 39
      In WWI, ours have never defeated the Germans in what is called a battle. The Germans then tumbled down as we wanted. That's all about qualification.
    3. +3
      24 June 2019 16: 39
      Cannot insert quote:
      "The whole war before the crash was essentially fought on foreign territory"
      Is that Poland, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia - not the territory of the Russian Empire?
      I have a grandmother born in 1894 - a refugee from Vilna, later a nurse in a hospital.
      The dreadnoughts themselves could not build. In terms of mechanisms and components, everything had to be re-ordered in England. The fate of "Alexander III" and "Izmailov" is a vivid example.
    4. +3
      24 June 2019 18: 23
      Quote: Demagogue
      The war, until the crash, was essentially waged on foreign territory.

      Oh well? When did you give Poland away? Or do you not consider Poland the territory of the Republic of Ingushetia? Maybe you also don't consider Libau? Well, was Belarus considered then? Roughly speaking, Russia lasted less than a year
  19. +2
    24 June 2019 14: 42
    What do you say that Kuropatkin and Rozhdestvensky in the compartment were traitors to the motherland. What traitors to discuss. Another admiral would shoot himself, and not be captured.
    1. 0
      24 June 2019 21: 45
      Quote: VLADIMIR VLADIVOSTOK
      Another admiral would shoot himself, and not be captured

      But what captivity is it so deadly? How many generals who were captured, for example, didn’t shoot themselves? Paulus didn’t even think about shooting himself for some reason. What a scoundrel. When the Germans took Crimea, our defense admirals chose to fly away, leaving the troops. Something in Port Arthur also no one was in a hurry to shoot from the navy. And Nebogatov?
      1. +1
        24 June 2019 22: 50
        During the Great Patriotic War, about seventy generals of the Red Army were captured.
        About TWENTS of them crossed voluntarily.
    2. 0
      26 June 2019 17: 46
      Quote: VLADIMIR VLADIVOSTOK
      What do you say that Kuropatkin and Rozhdestvensky in the compartment were traitors to the Motherland

      In favor of whom? Turn on the brains. What did the traitor of the motherland have as a result of the defeat? A splinter only in the head and the court
  20. +8
    24 June 2019 15: 08
    "And again - was not ZP Rozhestvensky responsible for the preparation of his flagships? One can, of course, assume that he simply intimidated his commanders to a degree completely incompatible with independent decisions."
    1) Actually, Baer was not the flagship, but the commander of the EDB, as the author writes, but after claims ... and the flagship was dead, which the squadron did not know request
    2) Why did the ZPR not appoint a new flagship?
    3) Why did none of the flagships / commanders know about the "brilliant" plans of the ZPR? Maybe then Baer could make a decision?
    "would head his column under concentrated fire from the entire Japanese line."
    and if ZPR after the start of the maneuver increased the speed to 13 knots? Then Mikasa would fall under the distribution ... hi
  21. -2
    24 June 2019 17: 27
    Quote: mmaxx
    In WWI, ours have never defeated the Germans in what is called a battle. The Germans then tumbled down as we wanted. That's all about qualification.

    Well, yes, it was implanted in Poland, and not near Moscow only. The armed forces performed their function and defended the country's territory. And did not drape to Moscow. With extremely weak equipment with artillery, a lack of shells, etc.
    1. +4
      24 June 2019 17: 35
      Fortunately (for Russia) the Germans had the Western front in the main. And if it weren’t for the fact that it’s not near Moscow
      1. +4
        24 June 2019 18: 29
        And if it weren’t a fact that not near Moscow


        But this is a matter of politics.
        In 1914, the Germans of the French + British (without the participation of Russia) would have been rolled out in three to four months.
        And then in 1915 (already without the French and Btians on the second front) by the fall they would have come to St. Petersburg = 100500%.
        They were restrained in 1914 as the three of us.
        Why in the years 1940-1941 were not three of us - this is a question of politics.
        1. -2
          24 June 2019 18: 37
          Of course. Tsarist politicians were still educated people and didn’t take the seminary or 3 classes of theological seminaries at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Therefore, they did not sign non-aggression pacts with the Kaiser)
          1. +3
            24 June 2019 19: 03
            Therefore, non-aggression pacts with the Kaiser were not signed)


            only the German Reich itself was created with the ardent assistance of Alexander II, to spoil the Austrians and French - and then they began to think how to save themselves from it)
            and Alexander II managed to spend so much money on the release of his little brothers that Transib was easier to build then and achieved the following: both wars were liberated by the Bulgarians for the Reich, and the British who weakened Turkey (the main enemy of Russia) raped Egypt for free
            1. 0
              24 June 2019 19: 07
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              Alexander II managed to spend on release

              And this is not the 3rd already? Which is the Liberator .and in the allies, the army and the fleet only)
              1. +1
                24 June 2019 19: 14
                "Liberator" - Second. The third is the Peacemaker.

                "the Russians freed us from the fascists, and we liberated them from the FIFA World Cup"
                (C)
                Hristo Stoichkov
                1. 0
                  24 June 2019 19: 17
                  That's right. I confuse them all the time.
        2. 0
          24 June 2019 18: 59
          By the way. The paradox of WWI is that the Germans and Austrians recognized themselves as defeated when the front line passed on the territory of their opponents - France, Belgium, Russia, Italy. And the winners did not see a single inch of German zoom even with binoculars)
          1. 0
            24 June 2019 19: 05
            Another year and would have reached Berlin. In WWI, the winners alone are Americans
            1. +2
              24 June 2019 19: 15
              They probably would have come. The truth is not sure that in a year. In fact, the Germans went to the world because of the collapse of Austria-Hungary. Another front they had nothing to cover.
              But the fact that they were so coolly overwhelmed by the victors later, although they at least didn’t lose on the battlefield, they really perceived as humiliation. As a people, exactly what happened. And by the way, therefore, they fought until the last time in WWII.
              1. -1
                25 June 2019 09: 52
                They probably would have come. The truth is not sure that in a year. In fact, the Germans went to the world because of the collapse of Austria-Hungary.

                \ looks annoyed \
                In fact, the Republic of Ingushetia did not kill Germany because of Turkey and the straits: the tsar was by no means a fraer (as the overwhelming majority believes from the great mind), and understood that the iron must be forged when it is hot, and that they do not wave their fists after the fight. I.e: first you need to take the straits, and only then end the war. Because then they won’t give.
                That is why Germany was fluttering.

                In fact, Germany lost the war in August .... in August 1914. (But you will not understand)

                And even after the revolution, in October 1917, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs AB yelled "we can hold out for another 2 weeks: either the events you promised in Russia and we surrender"
                Correspondence of the Austrian Foreign Ministry published, everything is known
          2. +1
            24 June 2019 22: 54
            Do not forget that in Germany in November 1918 there was a revolution.
            Some alternativeists believe that this was a real revolution, and the events in Russia were just a phantom.
    2. 0
      25 June 2019 00: 41
      And who is to blame for poor equipment, shortages, etc.?
  22. 0
    24 June 2019 17: 28
    Quote: Victor Leningradets
    Cannot insert quote:
    "The whole war before the crash was essentially fought on foreign territory"
    Is that Poland, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia - not the territory of the Russian Empire?
    I have a grandmother born in 1894 - a refugee from Vilna, later a nurse in a hospital.
    The dreadnoughts themselves could not build. In terms of mechanisms and components, everything had to be re-ordered in England. The fate of "Alexander III" and "Izmailov" is a vivid example.


    They could not, but for some reason they built it. Will we build an aircraft carrier now if they give us the mechanisms?
    1. 0
      24 June 2019 17: 43
      We built aircraft carriers (well, TAKRA). Specifically, I built and maintained the operation at the Pacific Fleet.
      And about built: "Emperor Alexander III" - readiness delay for almost two years. "Ishmael" is the only one with the prospect of delivery in 1918. The rest are hopelessly behind.
      Managed to cope well only with Masha and Katya, and then at the expense of British help.
    2. +1
      24 June 2019 20: 27
      We will build an aircraft carrier now


      Did the Russian Empire build tanks?
      Or, perhaps, aviation (except for IM at the beginning of the war) was at a high level?

      The USSR for some time fought with the United States for world leadership. How could.
      But the Russian Empire in the 20th century could not even claim a place in the top three. No way.
  23. -2
    24 June 2019 17: 49
    Quote: Town Hall
    Fortunately (for Russia) the Germans had the Western front in the main. And if it weren’t for the fact that it’s not near Moscow

    Because diplomacy allowed to avoid such a scenario. Frankly, suicidal. Smart uphill will not go.
  24. -1
    24 June 2019 18: 14
    Quote: Victor Leningradets
    We built aircraft carriers (well, TAKRA). Specifically, I built and maintained the operation at the Pacific Fleet.
    And about built: "Emperor Alexander III" - readiness delay for almost two years. "Ishmael" is the only one with the prospect of delivery in 1918. The rest are hopelessly behind.
    Managed to cope well only with Masha and Katya, and then at the expense of British help.


    In RI, dreadnoughts were built in a normal economy. And in the USSR light industry was ruined, and industry as a whole became an appendage of the military-industrial complex.
  25. -3
    24 June 2019 18: 38
    Quote: Pilat2009
    Quote: Demagogue
    The war, until the crash, was essentially waged on foreign territory.

    Oh well? When did you give Poland away? Or do you not consider Poland the territory of the Republic of Ingushetia? Maybe you also don't consider Libau? Well, was Belarus considered then? Roughly speaking, Russia lasted less than a year


    I do not consider Poland to be part of the heartland)) but in general I had in mind the fighting in the Carpathians, etc. In any case, it was not in the forefront of the adversary.
  26. -2
    24 June 2019 21: 10
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    We will build an aircraft carrier now


    Did the Russian Empire build tanks?
    Or, perhaps, aviation (except for IM at the beginning of the war) was at a high level?

    The USSR for some time fought with the United States for world leadership. How could.
    But the Russian Empire in the 20th century could not even claim a place in the top three. No way.


    Conversations about the USSR and its "leadership" are a completely separate and large-scale topic. I don't want to discuss it. But as an example: could the DPRK conquer South Korea? Certainly. Where is the DPRK now and where is the south? With the USSR and the USA, only the scale is larger.
    Regarding tanks, etc. Yes, the industry was backward. But where is the wonderful industry of the USSR now? What is left of her? Oil, gas, aluminum, steel. Simple process chains. Everything else is non-competitive and nobody needs.
    The most important thing: half of the urban population died out or migrated into the civilian. This is industry and science. Then, in the late 20s, they went through the pre-revolutionary cadres again. They were replaced by yesterday's peasants. We will teach them everything in the five-year period. Yet it’s easy in the economy — more factories are needed and more workers. To rivet tanks. And it’s boring for us to deal with light industry. Nationalized factories, ruined production and calmed down on this.
    But the most important thing is that the RIs, as in the WWI, would be helped by the Allies. And the same Hitler would never have climbed against the Entente. Not in 1939 so for sure. That is, it is possible to exist calmly without industrialization.
    1. +1
      24 June 2019 22: 08
      And the same Hitler would never have climbed against the Entente.


      Here you are right. Hitler would not climb 1 to 3.
      So the Kaiser climbed with the participation of Austria-Hungary, which was supposed to restrain Russia for some time.
      And Schlieffen still counted on Italy and dreamed of a 3 by 3 war. Well, although, we consider Italy for a quarter)
    2. 0
      25 June 2019 08: 18
      And the same Hitler would never have climbed against the Entente.

      why do you think that the Entente would last longer than the WWII?
      And the interests of the United States and Britain have not gone away.
      I think, Russia would leave the WWI without revolutions --- and would start .... all the same revolution. (Because the interests of Britain) Or at least an exhausting cold war for 50 years

      The Entente was collected by Britain for a very specific task (to extinguish Germany). After solving this problem --- it would be immediately dismissed (remember 1945-46)
  27. 0
    24 June 2019 23: 51
    Baer had a reputation for Marsoflot - that is, a sailor of the sailing era. He did not understand and did not like steam ships. Appointing this sailing ship as a commander in an armadillo was a mistake in itself.

    To make it clear: Oslyabya was, as it were, not the only ship in the RI Fleet where after loading coal .... they erased coal bags (!!!)
    (This, if someone does not understand, characterizes the commander with a uniform bastard and a durimar)
    1. 0
      27 June 2019 11: 29
      Quote: AK64
      Rem had a reputation for marsoflot

      Dear colleague. Absolutely all of the then more or less experienced sailors started on ships with the prefix - "sailing"
      "MARSOFLOT" is an experienced, hardened sailor, who knows and loves the sea and marine business. Samoilov K.I. Marine dictionary. - M.-L .: State Naval Publishing House of the NKVMF of the USSR.
      Vladimir Iosifovich is not an ordinary person. Suffice it to recall that he was convicted of misconduct stipulated by Article 185 of the naval code (who does not know - this is a scuffle, in relation to the lower ranks). But there is no reason to say that he did not know modern military equipment. When Andrei wrote about "Varyag" he mentioned Beer. In addition, "Oslyabya" was the best in artillery preparation in the second squadron (although this is largely the merit of Mikheev). In general, not everything is so simple. (TM)
      1. 0
        27 June 2019 11: 50
        Absolutely all of the then more or less experienced sailors started on ships with the prefix - "sailing"

        It is clear where "everyone started". But there were enthusiasts of steam and mechanisms - and there were those who could hardly bear the "spirits" (machine crew) - believing that they spoil his magnificent ship with their filth and stench.
        Wash bags are a characteristic of Baer, ​​and the characteristic is very poor.
        People in general are characterized by details and little things: a person can pretend - but details and little things give him away. Behr was given bags.
        I’ve mentioned what these bags are about: our opponents and I draw a Rozhdestvensky beast, and they try to present Baer as white and fluffy. So ... exactly the opposite. To stall a move is in the style of Baer.

        And it’s not about “didn’t know” (it’s surprising, but many “golden shoulder straps” didn’t know her --- everything changed very quickly then) - it’s about what he didn’t love and didn’t understand
  28. -1
    25 June 2019 06: 50
    Quote: VENOM
    And who is to blame for poor equipment, shortages, etc.?

    Weakness of industry, of course. Only this is no reason to drive the country into communism. The most interesting thing is that after a wonderful industrialization, I again had to run with sticks on the Germans in the WWII.
  29. -1
    25 June 2019 06: 57
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    Therefore, non-aggression pacts with the Kaiser were not signed)


    only the German Reich itself was created with the ardent assistance of Alexander II, to spoil the Austrians and French - and then they began to think how to save themselves from it)
    and Alexander II managed to spend so much money on the release of his little brothers that it was easier to build Transib

    Is there really more money than the USSR for its "allies"?
  30. -1
    25 June 2019 08: 37
    Quote: AK64
    And the same Hitler would never have climbed against the Entente.

    why do you think that the Entente would last longer than the WWII?
    And the interests of the United States and Britain have not gone away.
    I think, Russia would leave the WWI without revolutions --- and would start .... all the same revolution. (Because the interests of Britain) Or at least an exhausting cold war for 50 years

    The Entente was collected by Britain for a very specific task (to extinguish Germany). After solving this problem --- it would be immediately dismissed (remember 1945-46)


    In 1918 and 1946, the situations are completely different. In 1918 Britain was still an independent player. She needs Russia as a counterweight to the United States. And Russia with the Romanovs and with the Bolsheviks are two big differences in terms of negotiability. In any case, in 1939 the border with the Germans would go somewhere in Silesia, perhaps the Czech Republic would be ours, and so on. Quite different starting positions for the conflict with Germany. TBA regiments on the Ilya Muromets M3, accompanied by Sikorsky fighters, bombed Berlin on the very first day of the war))
    1. 0
      25 June 2019 09: 34
      In 1918 and 1946 the situations are completely different. In 1918, Britain was still an independent player. She needs Russia as a counterweight to the United States.

      \ shakes his head \
      Yes WHAT from Russia is the US counterbalanced, if the USA was allied with Russia against Britain all the way?
      And how can Russia counterbalance the United States? Yes, and the United States, if it is not allowed into the PMA, will be "lower pipe, thinner smoke."

      Forgive me for being blunt, but you live in a very fantasy world. The United States became a great power only at the very beginning of the 20th century, as a result of victory in the Spanish-American war. at the beginning of the WWI –– the USA is almost nobody to call. Britain used the United States instead of Russia --- after ... organized a revolution in this very Russia. (Because they decided --- perhaps mistakenly --- that the rural USA would be a less dangerous rival opponent).
      This --- playing off and preemptive pressure on the "next contender" --- was the policy of Britain throughout the 19th century (when it became the world hegemon)

      And Russia with the Romanovs and the Bolsheviks are two big differences in terms of contractability.

      Only in the sense that the Romanovs were independent sovereigns, and the Bolsheviks .... the Bolsheviks just twisted and manipulated.

      In any case, in 1939 the border with the Germans would go somewhere in Silesia, perhaps the Czech Republic would be ours, and so on.

      What are you talking about! In Russia, for some straits, the revolution was immediately staged. What is the "Czech Republic"? Rather, with a successful outcome, Poland would have to be granted independence. (Let partial)

      Quite different starting positions for the conflict with Germany. TBA regiments on "Ilya Muromets" M3, accompanied by Sikorsky fighters, bombed Berlin on the very first day of the war))

      In this case, all progressive mankind would have fought not against Germany, but against Asian despotism and tyranny. And Germany (and AB) would not have collapsed but would have saved against Russia.

      But only.
      1. -1
        25 June 2019 09: 52
        What is all the way the US is ally of Britain? ))) straight from 1783? Allies then? Read the literature about the history of their confrontation. All other statements are no less absurd. I'm sorry. There is no ground for controversy.
        1. 0
          25 June 2019 09: 55
          What is all the way the US is ally of Britain? ))) straight from 1783?


          Now read carefully what I wrote. And do not attribute YOUR fantasies to me.

          PS: but there really is no "ground for polemics": you are simply not ready for it
  31. +3
    25 June 2019 09: 50
    Rebuilding. arranged by Rozhdestvensky is a momentary, impulsive and overly obvious decision. As a result, in the 1st phase of the battle, the only best forces of the entire squadron were sent to the meat grinder. It would be wiser to accelerate the right column along the max with a straight course, and begin to lead the left column of "Oslyabi" to the right (fortunately, the slow-moving ones), provide additional. the gap from Togo to the extra Kayelts, but then the Suvorov detachment (with a destroyer cover) could be sent to the left, to approach the end Japanese. But this is all lyrics. When the enemy shoots more accurately, when the damage from his hits is many times stronger, then no maneuvering will save, and even the numerical advantage is not a panacea .. This is the alphabet, proven back in the days of sailing squadrons. Shooting accuracy and firepower is everything, except in cases of frankly stupid maneuvering, of course.
    1. 0
      25 June 2019 10: 05
      It would be wiser to accelerate the right column along the max with a straight course, and begin to lead the left column of "Oslyabi" to the right (fortunately, the slow-moving ones), provide additional. the gap from Togo to the extra Kayelts, but then the Suvorov detachment (with a destroyer cover) could be sent to the left, to approach the end Japanese.

      The maneuver described by you is possible - but it is DIFFICULT in execution. A difficult is better to avoid.
      The maneuver undertaken by Rozhdestvensky is not perfect - but this is the simplest possible maneuver (and even managed to screw up here!)

      Another possibility was to turn the entire squadron 8 points to the right, with the subsequent return to the wake again to HO23.
      (An interesting option would be to turn the left column by 8 points to the left, bypassing the "loop" clockwise - but there, in that left column, there was no flagship, there would be no one to lead ....)

      PS: And yes, I do not agree with the opinion of the author that "he refused from crossing T".
      In my opinion, Togo kraz tried - but .... missed: there was no visibility, and intelligence data did not allow us to judge the distance and position correctly: as a result of Togo came out of the fog too far from the Russians.
  32. 0
    25 June 2019 09: 56
    I apologize to Zinovy ​​Petrovich. He is of course Christmas. D in the fuse crept in. Of course, honor and respect for Christmas, of the admiral's squad, he was obviously the best at that time. But to succeed in battle, it is not enough to be an honest servant and a well-educated officer. You need to want and be able to fight.
    1. 0
      25 June 2019 10: 32
      he was obviously the best of the admiral
      .
      Well, more carefully: he was one of the best, exactly in the top 10%. It is impossible to determine the best.

      But to succeed in battle, it is not enough to be an honest servant and a well-educated officer. You need to want and be able to fight.

      And he wanted Christmas - after all, it was he who was the initiator to send help to the Far East. (True, he insisted on sending help to SPRING, and not in the fall).
      But in May, when he came to Tsushima, no "skill" would have helped.
      Rozhdestvensky hoped to pass without a fight --- but no luck (and .... held ... by chance, over, but aren't there too many accidents?). Rozhdestvensky relied on guns --- but his shells ... did not explode.

      What "skill" could help here?
      1. 0
        25 June 2019 12: 14
        I deliberately left out the question about the Brink fuses. Why? - Yes, because the majority does not consider this to be the main reason for the defeat. By the way, I think. But here in the article it was precisely Maneuvering that was discussed, this time Secondly, I believe that Rozhdestvensky had no idea how toothless his armor-piercing shells would be. Because with such knowledge, no normal naval commander with such a BC would have gone out to sea. So, I didn’t realize. That’s why I put on 4 modern EB as if it were manna from heaven. But the hope of "passing without a fight" is very indicative. The war is going on at sea. The enemy seeks and waits. He is not leading a transport convoy, but a Combat Squadron, and ... "hope to pass without a fight" as a basic option.? - This not normal.
        1. 0
          25 June 2019 13: 01
          I deliberately left out the question of Brink fuses. Why? - Yes, because most do not consider this as the MAIN cause of defeat. Incidentally, I think.

          Not about fuses but about shells in general.
          You apparently did not participate in previous discussions? This question is constantly being raised here.

          But here it was Maneuvering that was discussed in the article, this time Secondly, I believe that Rozhdestvensky had no idea how toothless his armor-piercing shells of the Civil Code would be.

          I completely agree with you on this, and, moreover, I think that Togo was absolutely I am sure that the shells will not explode. (That's why he maneuvered like a suicide)

          But the hope of "going through without a fight" is very indicative. The war is going on at sea. The enemy seeks and waits. He is not leading a transport convoy, but a Combat Squadron, and ... "hope to pass without a fight" as a basic option.? - This not normal.

          Why?
          He hoped to get narrow at night. What's wrong with that? But ... Apraskin hitched the squadron ...
          There was a chance to pass, IMHO, without squadron fight

          Moreover - Togo almost went to the Sangar Strait .... Here is such a bad luck: "the intercessor turned away"
  33. 0
    25 June 2019 10: 14
    Quote: AK64
    What is all the way the US is ally of Britain? ))) straight from 1783?


    Now read carefully what I wrote. And do not attribute YOUR fantasies to me.

    PS: but there really is no "ground for polemics": you are simply not ready for it

    Nothing changes and with such a reading)
    By 1918, the United States was no sideways ally of Russia against Britain. "All the way" too. Individual episodes of warming relations are not counted. It was the formation of the United States into a great power that made the rapprochement between Britain and Russia inevitable. Russia essentially formed an alliance with Japan from 1912 to 1916 to confront the United States. There were such allies. Russo-British contradictions in Asia were essentially removed by 1914. There was no serious antagonism, there was competition, which is absolutely normal.
    Regarding the independence of Poland - nonsense.
    1. 0
      25 June 2019 10: 26
      Nothing changes and with such a reading)

      Well, yes --- exactly the opposite - but "nothing changes"

      Generally, cultured and intelligent people in such a situation immediately apologize: "sorry, I was not attentive." But neither the first nor the second is about you, right?

      I finished my conversation with you: as I already told you, there really is no "ground for polemics": you are simply not ready for any "polemics"
  34. +1
    25 June 2019 13: 00
    There is no doubt that comparing warships and vehicles is completely incorrect, but still at least some experienced driver knows how dangerous the situation is when the head driver sharply “brakes” in the convoy of vehicles following certain intervals

    At the same time, having a faulty brake light, judging by the phrase
    The squadron battleship Oslyabya did not show us any changes in the course and stopping the vehicles (by signal, semaphore, balls, etc.). ”
  35. +1
    25 June 2019 13: 25
    I will express an opinion on the article:

    The author unfortunately does not understand Togo's actions. Or does not pay enough attention to these. And this is an important point.

    IMHO:
    (1) in the outset of the fight, Togo was trying to "build a stick over T". But ... he missed: in conditions of poor visibility, he judged the position of the Russians according to reports and could not get out directly in front of the Russian squadron.
    (2) I do not believe that Togo intended to go along the left column on counter-courses: with such a maneuver he would find himself BEHIND the Russian squadron, and again he would have to catch up with her. This is something he categorically did NOT want to do anymore --- it can be seen from all his maneuvers in this battle: as soon as the Russians turned south - Togo did not follow them, and broke contact, and again got up north of the Russians.
    For Togo, it would be enough to "not let" in - and he ALREADY won, without risk and loss. Therefore, I do not believe in the passage along the column.
    (3) What was he going to do then? Yes, again go to the intersection of the course - that is, again "stick over T" - after all, this is exactly the course that he took after the "loop".
    (4) Anything else? Based on the foregoing, Rozhdestvensky should even break through the Japanese system ANYTHING: after all, this is exactly what Alexander-3 did in the end - and this was the most successful of the maneuvers in that battle!
    But Rozhdestvensky clearly hoped to fight back with guns and tried not to risk it ....
    1. -1
      25 June 2019 23: 37
      Here is a sound comment. For Togo, the fight on counter-courses is really very unprofitable, chasing with a slight speed advantage as the battles in the Yellow Sea have shown, and Shantung is not grateful and has ghostly chances of success.
  36. +2
    25 June 2019 19: 04
    Lord admirals! Stoker (rjxtufr) is with you again in the wake column. Nicknamed Saxehorse. And you don’t seem to notice it.
  37. +2
    26 June 2019 05: 05
    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    "Confident in his enterprise, S. K. Ratnik took the initiative by fall 1904 g... prepare for sailing and the fifth ship of the series - "Slava", launched in August 1903 "(Melnikov)

    I wonder where Ratnik was going to take 6 '' guns for the battleship?
    In our reality, they began to be sent to Slava on October 23, 1904.
    Onboard armor as of September 1 of 1904, 52 (fifty-two) percent was installed on the battleship.
    How was Xaver Ksaverievich going to solve these issues, did he agree with manufacturers to speed up the production of missing components?
    1. +1
      26 June 2019 06: 06
      How was Xaver Ksaverievich going to solve these issues, did he agree with manufacturers to speed up the production of missing components?

      Most likely, realizing that there will be no components in any case, he was engaged in self-promotion: "I can do it! But the subcontractors let me down again ... Otherwise, we ba ...."
  38. +5
    26 June 2019 16: 15
    1) Case report fl. navigators of Colonel Osipov (Oslyabya).
    "At 1:30 pm on the right side, ahead of the course, at the intersection, the main forces of the enemy appeared, namely the armored squadron, consisting of the ships:" Mikaza "," Shikishima "," Fuji "and" Asahi "and armored cruisers 1st class: "Nissin", "Kassuga", "Izumi", "Azumi", "Tokiwa", "Yakumo", "Asama" and "Iwate"; the squadron was in the wake, at first approximately on the course of the West. At this time, the battleship " Prince Suvorov "changed course to the left and made a signal:" 2nd armored detachment to join the wake of 1st detachment "; the battleship Oslyabya, in order to enter the wake as soon as possible, reduced its speed by raising the balls. At 1 hour 35 minutes in the afternoon the enemy squadron crossed the line of our course and turned out to be on the left side and began to lean on the counter-course with our squadron.At 1 hour 40 minutes in the afternoon the battleship "Prince Suvorov" began to turn on the course northeast 23 °, and the battleship "Oslyabya" began to lead to the wake of the 1st armored detachment. At 1:45 pm, the battle began. The enemy, opening fire, concentrated it on the battleship x "Prince Suvorov" and "Oslyabya" ".
    2) Testimony of Lieutenant Slavinsky (Eagle).
    "For 1 hour 25 minutes, silhouettes of the enemy's main forces emerged from the darkness on the bow on the right. They were marching in a wake column to the intersection of our course at a great speed. The leader was Mikaza, behind him I saw Shikishima, Asahi, Fuji, and then armored and armored cruisers - I counted 19 large ships in total. On the Suvorov the signal: “I armored detachment has a move of 11 knots” and transmitted by a semaphore along the line: “Have 68 revolutions.” The I armored squad suddenly turned 4 rumba to the left and went to the second detachment to take a place in the head of the wake column. By order of the battleship commander, I sounded a combat alarm, handed over the watch to the senior navigator Lieutenant Satkevich and went down from the bridge to my tower. According to the combat schedule I was in the so-called "sighting room", the left bow 6 "tower of the battleship, commanding the left bow group, which consisted of: 12" bow, 6 "left middle, 6" left bow towers, bow casemate and all 75 mm. left side battery. From the tower I already noticed the wake a column of enemy ships of 4 battleships and 8 armored cruisers, which crossed over to our left side, turning 16 points to go a parallel course with us and opened fire on the Oslyabya. "Oslyabya" answered the enemy, "Suvorov" also, we were silent for the distance. I noticed that the Oslyabya and the vessels following it reduced their speed to low speed in order to let us pass and leaned slightly to the right in order to enter our wake as soon as possible. When we entered a stand, that is, took a place in front of the Oslyab, it already had holes in the bow and a knocked down gaff. At 1 hour 40 minutes. half. (apparently a typo in the document), according to the order received from the conning tower on the battle index, I opened the sighting with cast-iron shells at the head flagship battleship "Mikaza" from a distance of 57 cables. After three shots had been fired, we had to abandon zeroing, in view of the complete impossibility of observing the fall of our projectiles in the mass of bursts, which at times completely closed the Mikaza from our eyes. According to the admiral's order, confirmed by the number (1) one at the meeting with the enemy, our detachment fired entirely at Mikaza. "
    3) Testimony of Michman Shcherbachev 4th (Eagle).
    "From 1 hour 30 minutes, silhouettes of enemy battleships immediately emerge from the darkness to the right along the nose. The leader is Mikaza, followed by Fuji, Shikishima, Asahi, armored cruisers: Kasuga, Nissin." They are walking in one wake column, intending to cut our nose from right to left.The distance to them is more than 70 cables, you can distinguish their top and gaff flags.
    The admiral raises the signal: "Have 11 knots to move" and sends a semaphore on the line: "68 revolutions". On the "Eagle" they sound a combat alarm. Anxiety is also heard from Borodin. I armored detachment, following the movement of the flagship "Prince Suvorov", begins to turn to the left to line up in one wake column with II and III armored detachments. ... I jump into the tower, closing the armored door; all the servants in the field; the dials of the combat indicators do not show anything yet. I order to move my 12 "tower to the port side, since the battle will start from there. We are approaching" Oslyabya ", which has reduced the speed to let us pass; balls are raised on it at" low speed. "I do not remember exactly on" small speed. " move "or" stop. "That the balls were - this is true. His entire port side is on fire; he has already begun the battle. The enemy responds. Not splashes rise around him, but huge, black columns of water and smoke: enemy shells are bursting against We describe the circulation and I see the enemy. His battleships turn sequentially to the left (towards us) and, following in the wake of the Mikaze, line up in one column, lying on a course parallel to us. I look at the clock: 1 hour 50 minutes ( I can’t vouch for the particular accuracy of the watch, because I put mine approximately on the ship's.) On the dial, the arrow starts to move and shows: “sighting.” Shots are heard ahead: our detachment enters the battle. 6 "towers. Then on the dial the arrows show: "34 cables, rear sight corrections - 7". The enemy battleships begin to overtake us. First "Mikaza", and then "Fuji", "Shikishima" and others come out of the corner of the shelling of my tower.
    All enemy fire is concentrated on the Oslyab. His gaff has been knocked down. The stern flag is raised on the left side of the main yard. The projectile explodes on the main topmast and it, breaking at the Mars, falls to the port side. The enemy is especially shelling the nose of the Oslyabya. First, the undershot is about 1 cable, then the flight is about 1 cable, and the water column rises much higher than the Oslyabya forecastle when the shell breaks against the water. Against the gray background of the horizon, such a black pillar should be clearly visible. Then, after a quarter of a minute - hit. The shell explodes against the light side in the Oslyabi's cheekbone with bright fire and a thick ring of black smoke. Then you can see how the enemy board; ships all flare up and the forecastle "Look around" is enveloped in fire and clouds of yellow-brown and black smoke. In a minute, the smoke dissipates and huge holes are visible in the side. And again the flight, undershoot and volley. In some 10 - 15 minutes after the start of the battle, "Oslyabi" did not have a main topmast; the pipes were riddled with shrapnel, so they looked not yellow, but black. The navigating bridge above the conning tower is upholstered like the wings of a lowered semaphore. The bunks with which he was hung were on fire. There were at least 10 - 15 huge holes in the nose. The deck was also pierced in several places. A large shell hit the roof of the 10 "bow tower and, having pierced it, exploded inside. All three caps on the roof were torn out and thrown out. Thick brown smoke was coming through their holes in the roof. The tower was silent. Both 6" guns of the left bow casemate were silent. The Oslyabya's fire died down. It was attached to the port side and landed with its bow.
    At this time (about 2:00 am) the enemy column strongly overtook us, continuing to march in a parallel course. A Japanese armored cruiser of the Iwate class was sailing abeam the Eagle. The dials showed "group fire" and I entered under the command of the commander of the 4th group, the 3rd artillery officer, Lieutenant Ryumin, who was in the 6th "left stern sighting tower".
    4) Testimony of the Captain 2nd rank Ivkova (Sisoy).
    “The rebuilding of our two armored detachments into one wake column was very slow; we were surprised at the low speed of the Suvorov.” After the signal, our lead admiral ship Oslyabya continued to sail the same course and the same speed (about 10 knots), and the 8st the armored detachment very slowly approached our detachment, almost but overtaking us. After a few minutes, "Oslyabya" made a signal: "The II armored detachment should have a move of 2 knots, and at that moment he almost stopped the car, which instantly caused overcrowding of battleships II At the same moment, the Japanese fleet quickly crossed our course from the right side to the left and laid a counter-course with us. They opened fire. It seemed to me that the first to open fire was the Suvorov, which at that moment was even more to the right of the Oslyabya, heading 2 rumba to the left of ours. The Oslyabya changed course to the right in order to quickly enter the wake of the Orel, and the Oslyabya showed the slowest speed with the balls. We almost ran into the Oslyabya and clear in walked, as the mass of shells tore against its side and destroyed all superstructures. The Japanese fleet held out on a counter-course with us for no more than 3 - 16 minutes and, before reaching the traverse of the Oslyabya, turned XNUMX points to the left in succession and then immediately headed for our intersection. The course of the enemy ships was very great. "

    From the readings it follows that "Oslyabya" gave a signal that it was slowing down. Oslyabya did not enter the wake of the 1st detachment at the time of opening fire, but did it later.
    And I don’t understand Rozhestvensky’s order to keep the 1st detachment 68 revolutions. After all, a signal was already given to hold 11 knots.
  39. +4
    26 June 2019 16: 45
    And additionally about the result of Rozhdestvensky’s maneuvers at the beginning of the battle.
    From his testimony: "The Japanese admiral, having received a report from the scouts about our two columns and, coming up to the view of the squadron, really saw two columns. Then, moving perpendicular to our course from O-a to W and crossing our course, he continued to see two columns; going down to S-du, with the aim of attacking with all his might on the weak left column, he expected that the columns would collide - and, indeed, soon the tail of the right column began for him to align with the left column. height, he took this moment for a proper turn to the NO-th quarter. Turning, he hoped that he would run enough into the head of the left column, and after finishing the turn, he saw that he was dealing with the right column, which, unexpectedly for him, moved forward But he continued to think that the right column was on a separate voyage and at a greater distance from it than the left, and, judging by the English translation of his report, he began to explain to himself that our ships, after the start of the battle and already under the influence of inflicted defeat, began to rebuild in one line (both their right and left lines gradually wended their way to the east, the enemy's fleet in consequence formed in to an irregular single column) ".
    However, if you reread the materials of the commission, it turns out that Togo was right in his report, and not Rozhestvensky. The Russian ships did not line up in any one wake column, and so they entered the battle, in two columns, or rather, one "sub-column" of Borodino and one "heap" of ships of the 2nd detachment, into which Nebogatov's 3rd detachment rested ...
  40. -1
    26 June 2019 18: 38
    Well, since it began to subside, then, perhaps, we will introduce a lively and fresh stream into the discussion.

    So:
    at 13.55 (it is possible earlier, and even better earlier --- it is possible starting from 13.49, and maybe even a little earlier, but it is possible a little later) Rozhdestvensky .... raises the signal "the squadron has full speed" and "follow the flagship" .... turns 8 points to the right.

    I clarify for A&H (he may not understand): in the wake column it turns, i.e. sequentially.

    And then it goes around the loop of Togo clockwise to HO23 (or even a little further east - according to the situation).

    This is not a mate, and not the defeat of Togo --- but the result IMHO would be ... impressive: because Rozhdestvensky would have entered the history of military art, perhaps.
    1. 0
      27 June 2019 09: 45
      It will not work, with all the desire. Do not have time to go around the loop of Togo clockwise to HO23, Togo's speed is higher. Moreover, with such a maneuver, at the beginning of the battle, you essentially remove the "Borodinites" from the battle, and Togo, in pursuit, hits the ships of the 2nd and 3rd detachments.
      By itself, Rozhdestvensky’s maneuver with the withdrawal of the 1st detachment forward and closer to the enemy is not so bad, it was illiterate.
      1. 0
        27 June 2019 10: 34
        It doesn’t work out, with all desire.

        It will work out.

        Let’s do without cries: if you want to object, give arguments.
        Not necessary the entire loop around --- it is enough to have Kamimura's terminal ships on the beam. That is, cross tail. And break up with Togo counter courses.

        Moreover, with such a maneuver, at the beginning of the battle, in fact, you withdraw the "Borodino"

        On the contrary: with such a maneuver OBE towers of Borodino are brought into action. The adversary rests on the beam (well, almost) and successively gets EVERYTHING.

        and Togo catches on the ships of the 2nd and 3rd detachments.

        Hehe .... Hardly ....
        (1) The Japanese are known for being lost when something goes wrong: aggressive Russian activity would be the best method. Such a massacre of his cruisers at the very beginning could well not only greatly weaken Togo’s strength and lower the moral of the Japanese, but, if luck, would unsettle Togo himself.
        (2) Well, how would Togo act? Most likely, he would have had to complete the maneuver diverging in Russian (the cruiser Kamimura would have been raked). Only then, being approximately on the traverse of the head of the Russian column and at a distance of about 50-60 cabs, he would again begin combat maneuvering: most likely five trying to cover the Russian head.
        BUT! This would be another phase of the battle! And somewhere in half an hour. and while he would have approached - another 15 minutes.
        In the case of Rozhdestvensky’s maneuver, Rozhdestvensky found himself in this situation already at 14.00, and even earlier: he climbed into the fire bag (with a known result).

        By itself, Rozhdestvensky’s maneuver with the withdrawal of the 1st detachment forward and closer to the enemy is not so bad, it was illiterate.

        I proceed from the fact that he did just that. (The reason for this maneuver was a well-founded fear that Togo would go to smash the left column. But Togo decided to cross-sequence both columns in succession, which would really be worse for the Russians.)
        But at 1.49 Rezhestvensky already EXACTLY sees where Togo is going (he could understand this before). From now on, both full speed and a rotation of 8 points (sequentially! Otherwise, our dear author will not understand)

        Well, why did Rozhdestvensky climb into a fire bag? It seems to me that he was simply taken aback: he expected Togo to go along the left column with a counter-course (and then his cunning was a success, and he was great). But Togo went for crossing. And in this case, Rozhdestvensky did not have a blank ...

        So turning left would leave Togo a complete fool: his risk would completely fail
        1. 0
          27 June 2019 11: 07
          I initially did not understand your plan.
          Earlier you wrote about a turn by 8 points "raises the signal" the squadron has full speed "and" follow the flagship ".... turns 8 points to the right".
          In this case, ships of the 2nd detachment and Nebogatov's "samotopes", which have not yet had time to turn, find themselves under fire from the ships of Togo leaving the loop. Togo also turns to the right, trying to keep a parallel course with you, and in relation to the "Borodinians" to be behind on the left. For some time it was inconvenient for him to shoot at the ships of the 1st detachment, but the "Borodinites" did not take part in the battle either, Baer and Nebogatov were puffed out.
          But if you turn left to the beginning of the battle, then yes ... here really, the reaction of Togo is incomprehensible, he still has to get out of the loop.
          1. 0
            27 June 2019 11: 54
            Sorry: I have a mistake.
            Of course, "full speed to the left" - diverging counter courses.
            1. 0
              27 June 2019 12: 34
              By the way, on the tsushima.su forum, discussing the results of the battle in the Yellow Sea, many noted the poor shooting of the Japanese artillerymen precisely in clashes on a collision course. Moreover, in the Tsushima battle, maneuvering separately from Togo, Kamimura tried to stay away from the "Borodino" people. True, Rozhestvensky also has a weak point - Nebogatov's "self-topes". If they met with 4 battleships, Togo would have gotten anyway.
              But this is really not a bad idea, since 305 - 254 mm. guns in any case, would thoroughly ruin the skin of at least Kamimura. Asama had enough of one shell to lose speed and retire from the battle for a long time.
              Perhaps you are right, Rozhdestvensky needed to strive for contractions at counter-courses.
              1. 0
                27 June 2019 13: 52
                Perhaps you are right, Rozhdestvensky needed to strive for contractions at counter-courses.


                This is the case when it would be necessary not to discuss schematics but "talk about principles" (but I'm too lazy to speak seriously). But in short: Rozhdestvensky ...
                (1) believed that the Japanese are stronger
                (2) would be happy to avoid the fight altogether
                (3) understood that the Japanese were much faster than him
                In this situation, one should strive to diverge on counter-courses by all means, to draw time and wait for darkness, moving by all forces to the north-east.
                (Yes, and shooting, yes: there are many reasons to believe that Russian sailors were prepared precisely for this kind of shooting)
    2. 0
      27 June 2019 12: 12
      ERRATUM
      8-point turn LEFT (not right)
      To the left by 8 points, and in bypassing the loop - covering the tail of Togo.

      At a minimum: (1) half an hour of time and (2) the unpunished beating of Kamimura (and the battleships of the 1st Japanese detachment would have got it).
      This is at least.
      1. 0
        27 June 2019 13: 03
        And the distance to the Japanese, at the same time, is also shrinking.
        True, the moment would have been tense, any mistake of the commander (both Russian and Japanese) could cost him dearly. But Togo could have screwed up, in the battle in the Yellow Sea in the tactics of Vitgeft, the headquarters admiral, in his own words, still reduced all of Togo's "pirouettes" to a draw, and was able to hold out for quite a long time.
        Perhaps those who accuse Rozhdestvensky of excessive passivity are right in something.
        1. 0
          27 June 2019 13: 45
          And the distance to the Japanese, at the same time, is also shrinking.

          She was reduced to the Kamimura cruisers - but at the same time increased to the Japanese EDB.
          That is, the "unrequited beating of the little ones"

          True, the moment would have been tense, any mistake of the commander (both Russian and Japanese) could cost him dearly. But Togo could have screwed up, in the battle in the Yellow Sea in the tactics of Vitgeft, the headquarters admiral, in his own words, still reduced all of Togo's "pirouettes" to a draw, and was able to hold out for quite a long time.

          I wrote in previous topics that Vitgeft should have turned 8 points to the right, somewhere around 16.30. (More precisely --- when Togo was 4 rumba behind Poltava.)

          Perhaps those who accuse Rozhdestvensky of excessive passivity are right in something.

          I think at this moment he was simply confused: he was sure that Togo dreams of walking along the left column, and that he deceived him. Apparently, Rozhestvensky simply did not consider the option that Togo is deployed to arrange a "crossing T" (for both columns).
          1. 0
            27 June 2019 14: 37
            Was there crossing in Tsushima itself? As I understand it, Togo was never able to cross the course of the Russian squadron and cover its head. For the most part, the battle was on parallel courses, simply, because of the advantage in speed, Togo pulled forward, but he didn’t seem to have reached the head of the 2TOE.
            Using Witgeft as an example, I wanted to show that even if not the best naval commander, even if instinctively, but somehow maneuvers, Togo's speed advantage did not always help. Ultimately, Togo with 1 armored detachment could get far ahead, and Rozhestvensky at that moment could even turn to Kamimura. As I understand it, Bukhvostov tried to do something similar on the Alexander III, and Togo had to fend off this maneuver by turning "all of a sudden," naturally, losing contact with fire for a while, and Kamimura was eventually well fired at everyone he passed.
            1. +1
              27 June 2019 14: 54
              Was there crossing in Tsushima itself?

              In its pure form - was not.
              Here is such a moment: IMHO it is almost impossible to cross-short a column: it showed both the battle in the Yellow Sea and Tsushima.
              But Togo tried (both there and there). Togo obviously tried to cross at the appearance (and made a mistake with the distance, but it’s excusable). Then Togo turned around, IMHO, to cross again - and BOTH Russian columns.
              His "loop" in this sense is quite forgivable and understandable: had Rozhdestvensky stayed in two - columns - and he would have received a crossing of BOTH columns.

              As I understand it, Togo was never able to cross the course of the Russian squadron and cover its head. For the most part, the battle was on parallel courses, simply, because of the advantage in speed, Togo pulled forward, but he didn’t seem to have reached the head of the 2TOE.

              Well, there is an opinion that "head coverage" and "crossing T" (at least in a "pure" form) are different things. And Togo actually covered his head.

              Using Wittgeft as an example, I wanted to show that even if not the best naval commander, albeit instinctively, but at least somehow maneuvering, the advantage in the speed of Togo did not always help.

              Absolutely! While Vitgeft was maneuvering, he was twisting himself out of Togo. But when he stopped and turned on the runaway mode, this is how "the end of the kitten" became.

              Here short column effect: It doesn’t work on short columns to either cross or somehow achieve an advantage. If the enemy does not behave completely passively, of course, or does not make gross mistakes.
  41. +1
    26 June 2019 19: 17
    With all due respect to the author of the article, and reading it is really interesting! Is it worth it - is it worth placing all the responsibility on V.I.Ber? And this clearly follows in the summarizing part of this article ... It was V.I.Ber who did not announce the death of Felkersam to the squadron and that it was he who actually commanded the armored detachments? Didn't V. I. Baer appoint anyone else for this "vacancy", perhaps more suitable for the given role? It was V. I. Baer who HAD TO VIOLATE THE ORDER OF THE SUPERIOR COMMANDER and prevent, in fact, the dumping of two columns ??? So, by reducing the speed, and subsequently stalling the course, it was he who prevented the chaos caused by the fatal orders of Rozhdestvensky, in fact sacrificing his ship. What alternative did he have? Mind you, WITHOUT VIOLATING THE ORDER OF THE SUPERIOR COMMANDER? And even seeing that the "Eagle" clearly does not have time to rebuild? There are no alternatives, IMHO, except to reduce the stroke, and then stop - no!
  42. +2
    26 June 2019 20: 41
    In general, the matter with Beru's order is "dark". At first, Rozhestvensky himself said the following in the testimony of the commission of inquiry:
    When, at 1 hours 49 m, “Suvorov”, leading to NO 23 °, opened fire, it seemed to me that “Oslyabya” was not on the alignment of the masts of “Suvorov”, but somewhat to the left, planted at ten, at fifteen. Therefore, I ordered to raise the signal: "II detachment to be in the wake of the I-st."
    Later (his answer to question No. 45):
    On the question - “Was a signal made to the XNUMXnd and XNUMXrd armadillos detachments to enter the wake at the beginning of the battle”, I have to show that such a signal was made to the second detachment earlier than the fire was opened.
    And the fire was opened by the battleship “Prince Suvorov” at 1 hour 49 minutes. in the afternoon and was immediately accepted by those of the rear matelots of our line who did not seek to evade the battle. From our ships at 1 hour 49 min. only the battleship “Oryol” admits, according to eyewitnesses, who did not enter their place in the head unit, but were under the wind of the battleship “Oslyabya” and therefore could not immediately maintain fire.
    Moreover, according to his first testimony, the order "II detachment to be in the wake of the 23st" was given after the start of zeroing, which contradicted the testimony of other participants in the battle, according to which the order was given before "Prince Suvorov" lay down on the course NOXNUMX, not speaking of the beginning of the battle. Then, as we see, Rozhdestvensky said something different in his testimony.
    It is worth noting that from the conning tower Rozhdestvensky, with all his desire, could not see Oslyabya at the moment of opening fire. If he saw that "Oslyabya was not on the alignment of the Suvorov's masts," then the situation that "..." Eagle "is admitted by eyewitness testimony, who did not enter its place in the lead detachment, but was under the wind of the battleship" Oslyabya "and therefore did not have the opportunity to immediately support the fire."
    1. 0
      26 June 2019 22: 01
      So Baer did not have any special options! According to the "1st" order, he walked at 9 knots at the rate of NO23, then an interesting story turns out. If at the time of the submission - acceptance of the order, "Oslyabya" was following the 3rd ship of the first detachment with the "Eagle" going to the cut on the starboard side, then he could not help seeing the order, since his matelote at that time was "Borodino" at least some maneuver without changing course or reducing speed was not possible. Even if we assume that the order "No. 2" was given before the start of shooting by "Suvorov", what would it change? There are three options for the Oslyabya maneuver in any scenario: 1. Maneuver - change the course to the left - what will it give? Only one thing - the withdrawal of the second detachment (I will note not one ship, but an entire detachment!) Is much closer to the enemy and a clear disruption of the commander's maneuver. 2. Maneuver - change the course to the right, i.e. to a meeting with the 1st detachment, which in the best case would lead to a dump, in the worst ... 3. Maneuver - to reduce the speed to finish the Eagle maneuver, which in general Baer did. I'm wondering why the author is trying to "designate the guilty" exactly Baer, ​​and not assume the commander of the "Eagle"? A lot of questions arise! Why did the commander of the battleship "Eagle", seeing that he had no time to rebuild, did not increase his speed? The battleship "Eagle", going as the trailing one in the 1st detachment, by her actions, MADE to reduce the speed and stop the ENTIRE second detachment. What prevented him from going on the right traverse of "Oslyabya" even out of order and a little later to rebuild to his place? Moreover, his speed was "only" 2-3 knots higher?
      1. 0
        27 June 2019 09: 53
        Quote: Wolga
        Why did the commander of the battleship "Eagle", seeing that he had no time to rebuild, did not increase his speed? The battleship "Eagle", going as the trailing one in the 1st detachment, by her actions, MADE to reduce the speed and stop the ENTIRE second detachment. What prevented him from going on the right traverse of "Oslyabya" even out of order and a little later to rebuild to his place? Moreover, his speed was "only" 2-3 knots higher?

        Because Jung, like the commanders of the other Borodinites, dropped speed to 9 knots after the flagship. If it were not for this, then in about three minutes, with a speed difference of 2 knots, the Eagle would have completed the maneuver, got into the wake of the Borodino, and would have come out from behind the side of the Oslyabya.
  43. +2
    26 June 2019 23: 07
    "I'm wondering why the author is trying to" designate the guilty "exactly Baer, ​​and not suppose the commander of the" Eagle "?"
    I don’t understand this either.
    We will return a little earlier, using one of Andrei's previous articles from Chelyabinsk.
    "And then the Russian commander begins to rebuild, but how? The right column receives an order to increase speed to 11 knots, and the left continues to follow, as if nothing had happened, at 9 knots. In other words, rebuilding is very, very slow, and even if If the main forces of the Japanese fleet would appear after half an hour, or even 40 minutes, he would see that the Russians were still marching in two columns, that is, without rebuilding in a marching formation. In other words, the gradual advance of the right column reduced the time required for rebuilding in order of battle, but until a certain time did not give an outside observer to understand what this new order would be. So for a long time the "intrigue" - how the Russian commander was going to be reorganized - remained.
    But time passed, but the Japanese main forces did not have everything. The right column has already almost overtaken the left, and here Z.P. Rozhestvensky build their troops in the wake of the became quite obvious. Finally, new Japanese forces appeared in 11.05, but these were not the battleships H. Togo and the armored cruisers H. Kamimura, but the “dogs” of “Chitose”, “Kasagi”, “Niytaka” and “Tsushima”.
    The trick did not work, the Russian commander was mistaken: the maneuver, which was intended to shorten the rebuilding time, had to be stopped earlier, simply by reducing the speed of the right column to 9 knots, and now it was too late. And - the appearance of "dogs" was to indicate the imminent appearance of the Japanese main forces. Accordingly, there was no longer time to try to return the squadron to the marching formation, and Z.P. Rozhestvensky is left with the only meaningful decision: to line up their ships in a wake column and prepare for battle, hoping for the best. "
    Sound familiar?
    But there is one, but a significant difference! Rozhdestvensky’s right column then consisted of the 1st and 2nd detachments, was longer than the left, and ... the maneuver was performed flawlessly! Moreover, Nebogatov did not have to slow down, his detachment was on 9 knots.
    Meanwhile, the second time "did not work".
    Is it Baer's fault, or is the Eagle's commander to blame?
    1) After the order "the 1st detachment has a stroke of 11 knots" ("Prince Suvorov" the speed is 11,5 knots), a very controversial order was given to "keep 68 rpm". Even in our time, due to a number of technological reasons, the ships of the same project at the same engine speed develop different speeds. Borodino residents of the early 20th century, after a long transition, showed different speeds at the same speed. Thus, with his second order, Rozhdestvensky "nullified" the first one.
    As he pointed out in his testimony, “At the present time, apparently, it turns out that the battleship Orel (4th — in the 1st detachment), with the above formation, pulled back and at 49:XNUMX pm was out of place, and behind the starboard side of the "Oslyabya". I have no right to dispute this. Maybe the "Oryol" was delayed through his own fault or the fault of the third in the formation (the second number went behind "Suvorov" in an impeccable distance) ". It may very well be that the captains of Borodino were carrying out exactly the order to maintain certain revolutions, and not speed. The speed was different, and someone really "pulled back".
    2) As the respected author of the article writes: For a long 29 minutes Vladimir Iosifovich Baer had the opportunity to observe the execution of this maneuver. It was hardly possible to doubt its significance - it is obvious that, in view of the main forces of the enemy, Z.P. Rozhdestvensky was going to lead the right column, led by Oslyaby. And if Zinovy ​​Petrovich could not see that during the restructuring of his terminal “Eagle” did not have time to go in front of the Oslyaby, then on Oslyab it was obvious long before the real threat of a collision was created!
    Firstly, there was no real threat of collision, since the 1st detachment, according to the testimony of the participants in the battle, did not even enter the course of the second, "Prince Suvorov" lay on the course of NO23 to the left. Baer had no reason to steer somewhere to the side, or to slow down, since in fact the detachments were walking on a ledge. His "Oslyabya" only prevented the "Eagle" from opening fire, as it covered it from the enemy, however, due to the difference in the speed of the units, this was tolerable. The situation would have improved, but ...
    Secondly, before the "Prince Suvorov" lay down on a new course, Baer received the order "to stand in the wake of the 1st detachment." This already aggravated the situation, but here ...
    Thirdly, as soon as "Prince Suvorov" lay down on the course NO23, he dropped the speed to 9 knots. This was already a fatal mistake! Beru really had to not just wait for the Eagle to move forward because of the difference in speed, but to slow down, since the speed of the Eagle (as well as the entire 1st squadron) dropped from 11 knots to 9 knots.
    Well, and who is to blame?
    1. +1
      26 June 2019 23: 23
      "" Prince Suvorov went to the NO23 course to the left "- he was wrong, he was, of course, to the right in relation to the Oslyabya course.
  44. +2
    27 June 2019 17: 14
    Something about what was stated in the article, namely: "In other words, there was no mistake in leading the squadron into battle at 9 knots in the current situation: the mistake was that ZP Rozhestvensky too early reduced to 9 knots speed of his 1st armored squad.
    But what is interesting: it is possible that Z.P. Rozhdestvensky did not make this mistake. Many sources (for example, A.S. Novikov-Priboy) indicate that "Prince Suvorov" reduced the stroke to 9 knots immediately after turning to NO23, but there is evidence of the opposite, "I was strained. Further the author refers to Ozerov's testimony, but For some reason I was sure that the answer was always categorical to the question "was the flagship slowing down or not." Not having a good memory (old sclerotik, what can I say), I still spent time looking for an answer.
    With the permission of the author, I will refer to another participant in the battle, who knows better whether the "Prince Suvorov" dropped its speed or not. So: “At this time, at 1 hour 49 minutes in the afternoon, our 1st detachment had already entered its place in the wake column of battleships, reduced the speed to 9 knots, and the first shot was fired from Suvorov at the head Mikaz ", Which one managed to lay on a new course parallel to ours, while part of the matelots following him turned, and part, before reaching the turning point, had a collision course and aligned with the advanced" (Rozhdestvensky ZP Report of the Adjutant General Rozhdestvensky to the Naval Minister. July 1905. Sasebo. - The Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905. Operations of the fleet. Documents. Section IV. Book three).