Armored decked lightning. Cruiser II rank "Novik". Under the command of V.K. Witgefta

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The June 10th exit was very significant for the 1st Pacific Squadron: its main forces went to sea in full force, having the task of defeating the Japanese the fleet. With the filing of the governor E.I. Alekseeva, squadron commander, Rear Admiral V.K. Witgeft, was convinced that the Japanese suffered heavy losses on mines and were greatly weakened, which could make it easy prey for his ships. However, for Novik this exit was just another routine campaign.

The first on the external raid of Port Arthur in the morning on the 10 of June was the “Novik”, but not the cruiser, but the steamer — he had to place training mines with caps along the ragged section, so that they would point the way of other squadron ships. The Novik steamer departed Port Arthur approximately 6 miles, but then one of the Japanese destroyer detachments that were observed on the horizon began to approach it, and the Russian ships that could cover the Novik had not yet left the inner harbor, so the steamer eventually came back.



The Novik cruiser entered the outer raid as the second (and first of the warships) on 04.30 in the morning and began to determine the deviation, which he did before 05.15 - this was important, since the Novik had to go ahead of the squadron, and on its other ships it was impossible to vouch for the accuracy of the indications of the compasses. By 08.00, all the squadron ships that were supposed to lead the battle entered the raid, only Pallas was delayed, as it had a steering malfunction and managed to hook the telephone cable with an anchor - as a result, it was able to join other ships only in 10.50. But even before the "Retvizan" left the internal pool, mine quest-master-master Akim Gurko arrived at the "Tsarevich", reporting that "Diana", "Askold" and "Novik" stood right on the mine bank, which the Japanese destroyers left in the night from 9 to 10 Jun. By order of the admiral, the outer raid was razed again, along the ships anchored on it — about 10 mines were found, of which 4 were not far from the “Tsarevich”, and one was found in 60 fathoms from “Diana”.

Finally, at 14.00, the flagship signal began to be removed from the anchor. The first was the main caravan - three pairs of dredgers and behind them the Novik and Yingkou steamers - with trawls. They were followed by two pairs of destroyers of the 2 squadron - and also with trawls, and the Rider and Gaydamak mine cruisers moved along the sides of the main caravan. Behind the sweeping caravan was his direct cover - the 7 destroyers of the 1 squadron. Behind them were Novik, Askold, and, for some reason, Diana, then the battleships, and closed the column Bayan and Pallas.

At this time, the Chin-Yen, the Matsushima cruiser, and also “about 12 destroyers” were in direct view of the Russian squadron: (1, 4, fighter squadrons and 14 destroyer squad) went ahead, so that prevent the caravan of Russians from doing their work. Then the 7 destroyers of the 1 squadron advanced to meet them, passing a caravan of trawls. The battle between them began in 14.10 from the 30 cable course, which quickly declined to 25, from the Japanese, 4 squadron fighters and 14 destroyers took part in it, while being supported by Matsushima. I must say that the Japanese in the official historiography confirm the battle of the destroyers, but they do not say anything about the friendly cruisers supporting them with fire. However, this battle clash is described so briefly that support could simply not be mentioned, due to its insignificance: the Japanese do not claim any success in this battle. At the same time, the domestic official story contains a description of a strong explosion under the destroyer “Immovable”, which caused a knock on the left screw, and the destroyer had to stop the car, however temporarily, and in the future it could develop 18 nodes. However, it later emerged that the propeller blade was bent at the destroyer and the shponka jumped out - it is doubtful that the Japanese destroyer’s 75-mm projectile could cause a similar effect, so most likely there was fire assistance from the Japanese cruiser.



Understanding that the destroyers of the 1 squad were salty, the 14.20 "Novik" increased the speed, went around the trawling caravan on the left and opened fire on the enemy destroyers, forcing the latter to retreat to the "Chin-Yen". After 10 minutes from the 50 cable range, the Novik cables supported the Diana cannons, and the Japanese destroyers were forced to retreat, and shooting at 14.45 stopped. At the same time, the Novik did not return to its place, but continued to move to the left of the sweeping caravan, and soon two Japanese armored and four armored cruisers were found from it. Then, on 16.40, Novik handed the admiral's order to the ships of the main caravan: to return to Port Arthur. In 16.50, the squadron was reconstructed - now 6 battleships headed by the flagship Tsesarevich were ahead, followed by cruisers, with Novik being the final one, and the cruisers and destroyers were on the right side of the squadron.

As you know, V.K.Witgeft led his squadron at sea - he intended to conduct reconnaissance at Elliot and give battle to the weakest Japanese forces, if any were found there. However, the information of the governor about the losses of the United Fleet turned out to be excessively exaggerated, and at the beginning of the sixth hour the Russian commander saw the main forces of the Japanese. VC. Whitgeft attempted to gain a vantage point for battle until the Japanese forces were determined and appeared to be smaller than they actually were, but his ships lacked speed. Then it turned out that the Japanese are much stronger than expected. All this prompted V.K. Vitgefta to the decision to retreat, which he did: at 18.50 the squadron turned 16 points (180 degrees) and went to the raid. At 19.15, the cruisers were ordered to move to the right flank of the squadron.

It was getting dark, and the Japanese commander sent attackers on the attack. In 20.27, a detachment of Japanese ships of this class attempted to attack the Pallas, but was driven away by fire. Then, in the 20.45, the destroyers were discovered by the Novik and the small cruiser opened fire on them - as a result, the enemy detachment turned it off before reaching the Russian ships with the 30 cable. In 21.40, on Novik, we heard a cry from “Poltava”: “Man overboard!” And conducted an exemplary rescue operation. A sailor who fell into the sea was discovered with the help of a cruiser searchlight, then the boat was lowered, which returned him to the Poltava.

In 22.30, Novik anchored between the Cesarevich and Askold and opened fire on Japanese destroyers several times a night. In total, 10 and on the night of June 11 the cruiser used up 3 segment and 109 high-explosive 120-mm projectiles, as well as 6 * 47-mm “steel grenades” and 400 rifle cartridges - the latter were used to shoot surfaced mines. Apparently, the Novik's gunners did not hit anyone, but the cruiser itself was not damaged, although its decks were showered with splinters, and one of the crew members, the quartermaster, Peremokov, was contused by one of them. In addition, in the course of these events, Novik saved three people - we already wrote about the sailor from Poltava, but when Sevastopol exploded on a mine when anchoring, some people on the battleship panicked - two sailors board, were caught by "Novik".

The next day, 11 Jun “Novik” was the last to enter the internal raid - it happened in 14.00.

The next exit of the cruiser took place in a day, June 13: I must say, the author of this article does not leave the feeling that on this day the Russian imperial fleet could have won a significant victory if VK. Witgeft acted more decisively.

The fact is that on this day the left wing of the Japanese 3 army was to conduct an offensive in order to capture the heights they needed. For this, the army asked for the help of the fleet, and it, of course, was given this help, but how?

The main forces of Kh. Togo remained on the "flying" base of Fr. Elliot, from where they, of course, could not have approached Port Arthur all at once. For the shelling of the coast, the cruisers “Asama”, “Itsukushima”, two auxiliary gunboats of an unidentified type, as well as the 2 th fighter squad, 6 th, 10 th and 21 th destroyer detachments were allocated. In addition, Port Arthur's reconnaissance and patrols were carried out by the 6 th combat squadron (Izumi, Suma, Akitsushima, Chiyoda), the 4 th and 5 th fighter squad. As far as can be understood from the Japanese official historiography, Port Arthur did not have other Japanese ships 13 of June.

It is difficult to say what the Japanese were guided by, highlighting such an outfit of forces: most likely, the feeling of complete impunity with which their naval forces acted at Port Arthur played a role. However, even in this case, questions remain to the detachment to bombard the coast: the fact is that numbered Japanese destroyers were included in it.

The most modern ships were the 10 Squad, which included the 4 destroyer No. 40-43 with a displacement of up to 110 t, armed with 2 * 47-mm cannons and 3 * 356-mm torpedo tubes, their maximum speed was 26. At the 21 squad, things were worse - the destroyers №№44; 47; 48; 49 had a displacement of 89 t, armament 1 * 47-mm torpedo tubes and speed 3 knots. And it seems quite strange to send an 356 squad consisting of destroyers No. 24-6 - ships with a displacement of 56 t, armament from 49 * 52-mm, 1 * 47-mm torpedo tubes and speed of 2 nodes!

There was practically no benefit from the 47-mm fluff during the shelling of the coast. But the above maximum speed of the destroyers could hardly be reached by them in combat conditions - apparently, the ships of the 6 squad and, most likely, the 21 th could not escape from Bayan, Askold and Novik in should the latter have come to pursue them. The same applied to the two unidentified Japanese gunboats - the Japanese did not mention their names, and from the Russian ships they were generally mistaken for steamboats (which, by the way, they could well be, the Japanese could simply re-equip civilian vessels), but it is extremely doubtful that they would develop speed over 10-13 units, which is typical for small Japanese ships of this class.

In other words, part of the Japanese forces, due to their small speed, could not have escaped from Russian high-speed ships, and only one armored cruiser “Asama” could cover their departure. The sixth combat detachment, when meeting with Russian high-speed cruisers, should have run away without thinking, hoping that the Chiyoda vehicles would sustain this race. As we said earlier, formally the full turn "Chiyoda" was 19 knots. But this - when forcing mechanisms, while "Bayan" could well go on the natural thrust of 20 nodes. But in fact, in the battle with Varyag, the old Japanese cruiser could not even hold 15 units for a long time: until 12.18 he followed Asama, but then he was forced to slow down to 4-7 units and left the battlefield. Of course, if “Asama” and “Itsukushima” joined the Japanese military detachment 6, then together they would be stronger than the Russian squad of cruisers, but who prevented the Russian commander from bringing heavier ships into the sea?

If V.K. Witgeft, having received information about the activity of the Japanese, ventured to withdraw into the sea a detachment of sufficient strength and then acted decisively, the Japanese were in a very unpleasant situation: they could not fight with chances of success, or avoid fighting. In fact, they could only run by those ships that had enough speed to do so, leaving the rest to be devoured by the 1 Pacific squadron. But in order to realize such an option, it was necessary to launch the Peresvet or Victory, in addition to a detachment of cruisers and all combat-capable destroyers, or, better, both of these ships at once.



In fact, the risk of such an exit was minimal - the “place of action” was not far from Port Arthur, these “battleships-cruisers” were noticeably faster than squadrons like “Sevastopol” and, although they were inferior in speed to the Japanese battleships, they could have keep a steady move at a level of at least 15 nodes. This was quite enough to have time to retreat to Port Arthur even if our detachment found the main forces of X. Togo in full force - the latter simply would not have time to get close to the effective range of fire until the moment Peresvet and Victory "did not depart under the cover of coastal batteries, and there the Japanese did not like to meddle too much. In addition, it would be possible to bring other battleships of the squadron to the outer raid, even without using them directly, but only as a cover just in case.

Alas, expect a similar from VK. Witgefta was completely impossible. Interestingly, in this case it is impossible to refer even to the governor EI. Alekseeva: the fact is that the courage and determination of the latter grew in direct proportion to the distance between him and Port Arthur. That is, the farther away this statesman was from Port-Arthur (and from responsibility, in case of the defeat of the 1-nd Pacific Squadron), the more he advocated active actions: at some point in time, for example, he strongly recommended V.K. Witgeft to take a raid "Peresvet" and destroyers to the Elliott Islands. In essence, E.I. Alekseev gave V.K. Witgeft is very contradictory instructions - on the one hand, “take care and not risk”, that is, his instructions explicitly indicated the need to maintain the strength of the squadron for a decisive battle, without wasting them. On the other hand, E.I. Alekseev demanded from V.K. Vitgefta decisive action: it is obvious that in this position, the governor was “covered” from all sides. If V.K. Vitgeft will not listen to the requirements of the governor to conduct an active naval war, because it is the fault of V.K. Vitgefta, not the governor, and if Wilhelm Karlovich would still have risked, but suffered significant losses, the governor, again, would not be to blame - he also ordered V.K. Witgeft not to risk in vain!

In the current situation, everything depended only on the personality of the commander - there is no doubt that if Wilhelm Karlovich had been replaced by a man of the warehouse S.O. Makarova, the 1 Pacific would be much more active. But V.K. Vitgeft did not feel like a naval commander, did not see the strength to lead the fleet to victory. This is all the more insulting because as an admiral he was not at all bad, and he proved it in the July 28 battle at Shantung by several simple but effective maneuvers by neutralizing Kheihatiro’s “dances” in the first phase of the battle.

In general, in a situation where VK. Witgeft should attack and try to destroy the enemy forces operating from the sea on the flank of our position; he could only decide to drive away the Japanese ships and bombard the advancing enemy ground forces. And, oddly enough, it sounds, did not dare to allocate enough strength even for such a limited-purpose operation.

Our ground forces, in the person of Lieutenant Colonel Kilenkin, asked for support for 13 June at 08.35, but back in 07.30 the Novik and gunboats Bobr and Brave were given the order to breed couples. The first were the gunboats, which went directly after the trawling caravan, followed by the Novik, who left the internal raid on 09.20, and the 14 of the destroyers of both squads followed them. This, strictly speaking, was all — one small cruiser that could fight on equal terms only with the weakest Japanese ships of the same class, the cannon ships and the destroyers. No, V.K. Witgeft has provided further cover, but what? To support the detachment, he brought the Diana and Pallas armored cruisers to the outer raid - I think it’s not necessary to say that of all the Port Arthur cruisers, these two “goddesses” who had the 17,5-18 parade course were the least suitable for to quickly support the ships that need it. Moreover, it is no less obvious that the firepower of these cruisers was absolutely insufficient to defeat the enemy. By June 13 it was already quite obvious that the Japanese cruisers prefer to operate the units on the 4 ship. Even combining with Novik, Pallas and Diana would have an 10 * 152-mm and 4 * 120-mm guns in the side salvo, and even the Japanese 6-second combat squad, with its frankly weak Izumi, " Suma, Akashi, and Chiyoda had 6 * 152-mm and 15 * 120-mm guns. And if suddenly "dogs" were found? Of course, the large sizes of the “goddesses” would play their role, the “six thousand meters” would not easily inflict critical damage with 120-152-mm caliber guns, and, in any case, these two cruisers, suffering damage from superior forces, could ensure a return. Novika "and destroyers (less confidence about gunboats). But what is the point of “asking for it” and taking the battle at a disadvantageous balance of forces, when 6 squadron battleships and 2 high-speed cruisers stand two steps away in the internal raid?

Not only did “Pallas” and “Diana” not fit for cover in their performance characteristics, they also lingered a long way down. As we have said, the Novik was released on 09.20 and he had to catch up with gunboats. But “Pallas” entered the external raid only in 11.50, and “Diana” in general in 14.00! And this despite the fact that the Japanese cruisers came to light almost immediately after entering the outer raid - Chiyoda and Itsukushima were seen in the interval between 09.20 and 09.40.

And so it turned out that having overwhelming superiority in forces - 6 battleships, an armored cruiser and 4 armored against two armored Japanese cruisers (if you count that Chiyoda, which had a small armor belt on the waterline) and four armored, the Russian involved only a small part forces available to them. As a result, Novik, cannon ships and destroyers had to act in conditions of Japanese superiority, which entailed the need for a certain caution.

In 09.40, Novik discovered Japanese ships that were identified as 2 steamer and 16 destroyers - apparently, they were 4 and 5, fighter units and 6, destroyer squad. The Novik immediately opened fire on them from a 40 cable distance, and after 5 minutes it was supported by the gunboat “Brave”, launching an 4-mm projectile at enemy ships 152 *. The 5 Squad was the first to come under fire, but the Russian volleys went undershoot, and the fighters retreated, with no losses or damage. At this the shootout was interrupted. At 11.00, the main caravan was released to Port Arthur, and an hour later the Russian ships anchored in Tahe Bay - the fact was that the order Belohr was handed over to the ship "Beaver". Witgefta do not go on Tahe.


Gunboat "Beaver"


For an hour and twenty minutes the detachment stood, doing nothing. Then V.K. himself arrived on the Vigilant destroyer. Vitgeft, after which the Russian ships weighed anchor at 13.40 and followed him. At this time on the horizon was clearly visible "Itsukushima", a two-pipe steamer and destroyers. The latter decided to approach in order to lure the Russian destroyers into the sea: from the Novik they were seen as 8 large and 4 small, but, most likely, there was a mistake. Most likely, there really were 12 destroyers, but only the 4th fighter squadron and the 6th destroyer squadron, that is, 4 large and 4 small destroyers, went to Tahe Bay, from where the Russians were leaving. VC. Vitgeft ordered to fire at the ground positions of the Japanese, so that at 13.45:XNUMX the detachment opened fire, while the Novik fired at the coast and at the Japanese destroyers at the same time, and gunboats - only along the coast. There were no hits on the Japanese ships, but the fire of the Russian cruiser forced them to retreat.

Russian ships fired on the ground forces of the Japanese .... Here, alas, these documents vary greatly. According to the report of the commander of the "Novik", the fire was stopped at 14.00, that is, they shot just 15 minutes, but official history reports that they shot before the 14.45, and the commander of the gunner boat "Brave" reported in the report that he had finished fire at 15.00! Comparing the data reports, we can assume a trivial slip in the report MF. von Schulz, the commander of the "Novik", and, perhaps, this is a typographical error of the typesetter of the collection of documents. Most likely it was that they actually fired before three o'clock and that the rear admiral ordered a cease-fire at about 14.45, and Novik (where the order was sent, most likely, a semaphore) was executed first, and the canlods were closer to 15.00, when on Novik they picked up and raised the signal with the admiral's order.

During the shelling on the Russian ships, the “main forces” of the Japanese were noticed, identified as “Assam”, “Itsukushima”, “Chiyoda” (which was right), and two cruisers of the “Takasago” type - the last was a mistake, these were previously mentioned cruisers 6-th combat detachment. The time of the discovery of the Japanese is also unclear: M.F. von Schulz reports that the enemy was spotted after shelling, when the detachment was returning to Tahe Bay. But the commander of the "Brave" claims that he saw the Japanese cruisers around 14.15, that is, long before the cessation of shooting. The only thing that can probably be argued for sure is that the cessation of the shelling is in no way connected with the appearance of superior Japanese forces - this follows from further events.

Most likely, V.K. Vitgeft suggested that the shelling of the ground positions of the Japanese reached his goal - but he did not lead his squad back to Port Arthur, but ordered to return to Tahe Bay, where the Russian ships moved around 15.00. But after only 20 minutes VK Vitgeft ordered to return and renew the shelling: from the shore, the “Imperious” was told that the Japanese had launched a new attack. At 15.40, the Russian ships again opened fire, and the Novik, like the last time, fired at land targets and nearby Japanese destroyers at the same time. However, already in 15.50 on Novik we saw the approach of 4 of large enemy warships - from Japanese official historiography we now know that they were the cruisers of the 6 battle group.

Fight them with the available forces. Vitgeft, of course, could not, and was forced to retreat. In 16.00, the ships stopped fire and returned to Tahe Bay, from where they immediately went to Port Arthur, leaving only the 4 destroyer to be on duty. Novik arrived in Port Arthur without incident, and entered 17.30 in the inner harbor. In total, the 13 * 137-mm and 120 * 1-mm projectile were used up by the cruiser for June 47.

What conclusions can be drawn from this combat episode? As we said earlier, due to the excessive caution of V.K. Witgefta 1 th Pacific Squadron missed the opportunity to sink several Japanese ships, even small ones. But in no case can we blame Wilhelm Karlovich for the lack of personal courage. Everyone admires S.O. Makarov, rushed to the rescue of the “guarding” on the small cruiser “Novik”, but in this episode, V.K. Witgeft took direct control of the detachment in the face of the superior forces of the enemy, raising his flag on the destroyer! Without a doubt, the squadron commander was a brave man, but ... as has been said repeatedly, the courage of a soldier and the courage of a commander are two different things. The first V.K. Witgeft was fully endowed, but with the second ... alas, there were problems.

Certainly, the exit of the Russian detachment disrupted the artillery support of the advancing Japanese troops, and the ships that carried it out were driven off. Moreover, the Russian ships opened fire precisely when our ground units particularly needed it - with the 13.00 the Japanese stormed the key elevation of the position, Mount Huinsan, and the shelling that lasted from 13.45 to 15.00 was most welcome. But alas, the effectiveness of the Russian naval artillery was not enough - in 15.30, the mountain was still occupied by Japanese troops.

Again, it is difficult to blame V.K. Witgefta: the strength of the three Russian gunboats, destroyers and Novik was not enough, of course, to smash the Japanese naval forces, but for a successful shelling of the coast, according to the views of that time, it was quite enough. In other words, failure here is most likely justified by the meager experience of the operation of the fleet against the coast, and not by the miscalculation of command. But it is noteworthy that the Japanese took the mountain half an hour after the Russians stopped the fire - who knows, if VK Vitgeft would go out to sea "in the grip of the grave" and continued shelling, not returning to Tahe, perhaps the Japanese would not have seized this elevation.

The next day, Novik again went to the sea to Tahe Bay and Luvantan, but this time there was nothing interesting - A.M. Stoessel already in the evening of June 13 sent a telegram to VK. Witgeftu asking for re-firing. Accordingly, 14 June in 06.30 “Novik”, three gunboats and 4 destroyers, having entered the external raid, again went to the position, however, in 07.40 AM Stoessel said that he no longer needed the help of the fleet, but he asked “until the situation was cleared up” to leave the ships in Tahe Bay for the time being. This was done, and the detachment joined the 4 Russian destroyers, left on patrol last day.

The weather was very bad, the visibility was minimal, but later the gunboats from 16.40 to 17.50 fired at the positions of the Japanese. They saw the Japanese destroyers and cruisers, but the matter did not come to a skirmish, and after completing their work, the detachment returned to Port Arthur. This time Novik did not open fire.

The next exits of Novik took place on 20, 21 and 22 of June, the cruiser went out for three days in a row, during the so-called battles for the Green Mountains, which began with General R.I. Kondratenko, on his own initiative, counterattacked the Japanese positions, which forced General Fock to send troops to storm the previously captured Mount Huinsan. As a result, fierce battles took place on the land front, and R.I. Kondratenko, noticing the appearance of Japanese destroyers, asked for support of the fleet.

June 20 in 10 hours came a detachment in the "Novik", three Kanlodok and 12 torpedo boats, an hour later they anchored in Tahe Bay. This time they were covered by the entire squad of cruisers, and not just the “Diana” and “Pallas”. “Novik” with two shots drove the destroyers that were spinning nearby, with which, according to M.F. von Schulz, there were two gunboats, but that was the end of it. Despite the fact that the ground forces sent their representative, Lieutenant Solovyov, and the detachment in 12.30 came to Luvantan, there were already Russian positions everywhere, so the shelling did not take place. The squad returned to Port Arthur at 18.40.

On June 21, everything happened again - on the 10.20, Novik launched an external raid, from where, accompanied by three canlods and 8, the destroyers went to Tahe Bay. A representative of the ground forces arrived again, and in the 16.00 the Novik and the gunners Gremyashchy and Brave were fired at the height of the 150, while the cruiser was firing crossover and the cannon-guns that had advanced forward were aimed. However, the fire was quickly “crushed”, because its inefficiency became clear - even the presence of a land-corrector officer, alas, did not improve the situation. Despite the fact that Novik this time spent only 5 * 120-mm shells, and the gunboats, apparently a little more, a few ship-based shells, as it turned out, became the location of the Russian troops. Alas, but at that time the fleet did not know how to interact with the coast: however, at least, the Russian ships, regularly leaving the Tahe Bay, prevented the Japanese from supporting their coastal flank with fire.

The most interesting events took place 22 June. In 05.00 Novik, the four gunners and the 8 destroyers again went to Tahe Bay in order to fire the 150 altitude again, and this time they were covered from the outside of the raid by all the other Port Arthur cruisers. In 06.50, on the approach to Tahe, Novik found 4 enemy destroyers and drove them away with artillery fire. The detachment went out to Luvantan, and Novik opened throw-over fire at the “150 altitude”, as aimed shooting was impossible due to fog. Then he was cleared, and Novik's gunners saw on the top a stone blindage, as well as the movement of the Japanese. Now 120-mm guns could shoot sighting, accuracy naturally increased, and movement at the “150 altitude” stopped. Having fired at the dugout, Novik also tried to crush the battery, which, according to intelligence, the Japanese had placed there, and since the latter had to be behind the parapet at the very top, they used segmental shells, setting the tubes for 12-second delay, in order to cover the Japanese guns splinters from above. Then the cruiser moved the fire to other heights, where Japanese troops were seen from the cruiser. High-explosive shells were used to fire on them; during firing, they were transferred to segmental ones.

The canlods also took part in the shelling, and at the “Beaver” the 229-mm and then the 152-mm gun failed first, and the ship was sent back to Port Arthur. The Japanese destroyers were visible, but they did not come closer to Russian ships than on 5-6 miles.

By 09.00 "Novik" already shot 274 projectile, the squad finished shelling and went to Tahe Bay, so that by necessity again to support our troops with fire. Such a need soon arose - R.I. Kondratenko again asked to fire at “150 altitude” and “80 altitude”, and shelling resumed in 14.25. However, now only gunboats "worked" along the coast, and the Novik and the destroyers covered them from the nearby Japanese ships, the destroyers and gunners, but the latter did not look for a fight. However, in 15.30, 2 of a larger Japanese ship appeared on the horizon, appearing to be Chin-Yen and Matsusima, which approached the Russian squadron. Soon the distance to the Chin-Yen was reduced to 7 miles, then on Novik they raised the signal to return to Port Arthur. The Japanese continued to converge, and when the distance was reduced to 16.05 cables in 65, Chin-Yen opened fire on Novik from 305-mm guns. The shells went into undershoots, and no cable was recorded on Novik as a drop in the 2. In 16.30 squad returned to the external raid.

On this day, Novik used 184 high-explosive and 91 segment 120-mm projectiles, as well as 10 * 47-mm "steel grenades". And, as we said earlier, one can only regret the indecisiveness of V.K. Witgefta, who did not dare to bring heavy ships to the outer raid - as a result, the Russian detachment, which had the important task of supporting ground forces, was driven away by the pre-ancient Japanese (more precisely, requisitioned Chinese) battleship.


Chin-Yen


If the same “Peresvet” and “Victory” were assigned to the “Novik” distant cover, in addition to the cruiser squadron, and they were allowed to act decisively, then with high probability 22 June would have lost the Chin-Yen battleship, and a fair share of their insolence.

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  1. +1
    26 January 2019 05: 44
    Thanks, great article! It is very convenient and pleasant, without straining to compare a pile of books, to receive detailed and high-quality material good
  2. +2
    26 January 2019 06: 23
    Nevertheless, I’ll add from myself five cents:

    1. Shelling from the sea in a specific situation of the siege of Port Arthur should theoretically be of great importance, since it allowed shrapnel fire to zones that were reliably sheltered from fire from fortress positions (flanking fire or even fire from the rear).
    300 - 500 shells of medium caliber, IMHO, are equivalent to 2000 shells fired by an 8-gun battery of 76-mm guns. By the standards of the time, this is really a lot.
    The problem was that shrapnel fire ceases to be valid at the moment when the enemy begins to hide from him, so to achieve the desired effect it was necessary:
    -Constantly stay in position and wait, for example, for thick chains to run forward shouting "banzai" - which the sailors could hardly ever provide;
    - carefully search for Japanese batteries, headquarters, convoys, - the possibilities for which the Japanese did not provide almost never.

    2. It is good to scold Vitgeft on the basis of "after-knowledge", but no one explained to him that one should rely only on oneself. According to Wittgeft, it is difficult to assess his exact primary data for analyzing the possibility of unblocking by the ground army, but the risk of completely destroying the squadron is justified only by the confidence in the fall of Port Arthur, and confidence in the fall of Port Arthur could only stem from the confidence in the defeat of the Russian army in Manchuria ... The defeat in the battle at Wafangou, of course, could not but grieve, but the prospects became truly gloomy only after the battle at Liaoyang, the outcome of which could not be known for sure. Either I don’t know much, or Vitgeft didn’t have enough data to be sure of this last point, so he wanted to "sit out" with minimal losses and did nothing beyond the minimum necessary in order to somehow recline for several months (this is quite natural : Defeat Kuropatkin at Liaoyang and the intact First Squadron would be a trump card in the negotiations).
    1. +6
      26 January 2019 09: 21
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      Shelling from the sea in the specific situation of the siege of Port Arthur theoretically should have been of great importance

      If they were still properly organized - yes, but the question is not for Witgeft - in those years they did not know how to really work along the coast
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      It is good to scold Vitgeft, based on the "afterthought", but no one explained to him that one should rely only on oneself

      In fact, they explained, and in detail, the higher leadership in the person of the governor Alekseev
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      According to Witgeft, it is difficult to evaluate its accurate primary data for analyzing the possibility of a land army’s deblockade, but the risk is to completely put the squadron under defeat

      Andrew, Witgeft did not have to puzzle how to win the war. He had very specific tasks that his leadership set. I also note that the rejection of the active operations of heavy ships in the area of ​​several tens of miles from their own base cannot be justified by any strategic considerations
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      Either I don’t know much, or Witgeft did not have enough data to be sure

      Witgeft generally did not have the ability to somehow coordinate the actions of the squadron with the ground forces of Kruopatkin - in fact, he was not informed
      1. 0
        26 January 2019 09: 38
        A colleague, I read in detail your analysis of the battle on July 28.07 - I liked it very much, however:

        He had very specific tasks that his leadership set.
        - So Alekseev in 1903 talked a lot about the topic: let's go, we'll arrange a "Second Sinop" for the Japanese in Sasebo, and then he merged. In Witgeft's place, I would have expected the same: it will puff out its cheeks, and then it will merge. Moreover, IMHO, Vitgeft could not help but understand that this attack of belligerence of the governor came from St. Petersburg, that the governor actually voiced it to him.

        Witgeft did not have to puzzle how to win the war. - Nelson, I remember. said that anyone can stupidly execute orders, but a normal commander ....) no?

        Vitgeft generally did not have the ability to somehow coordinate the actions of the squadron with the ground forces of Kruopatkin - he, in fact, was not reported. - Yes. But he had to realize that towards the end of the summer a decisive battle of the campaign would inevitably take place on land. Defeat Kuropatkin and Vitgeft, who kept the squadron, would be revered as "the new Kutuzov"

        the refusal of the active operations of heavy ships in the area of ​​several tens of miles from its own base cannot be justified by any strategic considerations
        - see the "blockade of Leningrad" - did you survive without them, or you had to swim somewhere? for strategic reasons, in 1812 they surrendered Moscow, abandoning "active actions" for another couple of months
        1. +6
          26 January 2019 10: 06
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          So Alekseev in 1903 talked a lot about the topic: let's go, we'll arrange a "Second Sinop" for the Japanese in Sasebo, and then he merged.

          It’s not that it merged, but the Japanese simply started the war by blowing up the best battleships of the squadron 2, so there was nothing for Sinop to arrange.
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          Nelson, I remember. said that anyone can stupidly execute orders, but a normal commander ....) no?

          Not. The full quote is:
          Firstly, you should always unconditionally obey orders, without trying to make any own opinion regarding their legitimacy. Secondly, you should consider anyone who speaks bad of your king to be your enemy; and thirdly, you must hate any Frenchman as much as you hate the devil
          .
          As for the famous "I do not see the signal", here is a completely different situation - Nelson had the opportunity to defeat the French fleet, but received a different order - so he ignored it. That is, he chose active action instead of inaction contrary to the order. Vitgeft chose inaction in spite of action - also in spite of the order :)))) Can't you see the difference? :))))
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          Yes. But he was obliged to realize that near the end of summer, a decisive battle of the campaign would inevitably happen on land. Beat Kuropatkin

          Here are just a few:
          a) Nothing implied that the battle would be decisive
          b) Nothing implied that it would end in a decisive defeat of one of the parties, and not a draw
          c) Nothing implied that the Russian troops would not suffer a decisive defeat
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          Defeat Kuropatkin and Vitgeft, who kept the squadron, would be revered as "the new Kutuzov"

          He would be considered the one who stayed in Arthur while the army shed blood. This is not to mention the fact that Port Arthur itself was in danger and how much it would last was unknown.
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          see "the blockade of Leningrad" - did you survive without them, or you had to swim somewhere?

          Andrew, again, a dispute for the sake of argument? Do you not see the difference between Leningrad and Port Arthur? Is there any? :))))) If - yes, then say so, I will explain, but in the future, I'm sorry, I will have nothing to talk about with you. To explain the basics ... this is already too much, here VO, and not primary school classes, although even there analogies of this kind may not be appropriate. If not, why troll?
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          in 1812 they surrendered Moscow, abandoning "active actions" for another couple of months

          Same
          1. -1
            26 January 2019 11: 21
            OK. we end the dispute here he is "off topic" creepy (I did not have time to the forum to discuss your posts about 28.07).

            I just tactfully note that:

            1. In real history, Russia had NUMERICAL EXCELLENCE near Liaoyang, and such (or equality) was to be expected based on a simple analysis of then generally known facts.

            2. Of course, it was very logical for the fleet (which is numerically weaker than the Japanese) to wait for the army (which is numerically not inferior to the Japanese) "to resolve the issue." There was no defeat at Liaoyang, IMHO: the number of those killed says, in my opinion, that Kuropatkin withdrew the troops without a serious fight. Witgeft could not have foreseen THIS in advance.

            3. The battle on land in Manchuria could not fail to take place by September (supply of forces + the need for a deblockade of Port Arthur), for Port Arthur and the First Squadron, it could not be decisive. But see paragraph 2.

            4. "Explain the basics" is sometimes necessary. That would have started our acquaintance two weeks ago with a story, what is "K" in the de Marr formula according to the test results of 1913 and 1920, why it does not coincide with the table given by me, as well as the standard value of tubing in 2134, yes and would compare all this with the results of the British tests of the arr. 1911, and then we would move on to determining such coefficients further (for “Greenboy” and “Bavaria”, for example) No offense, colleague. wink It's just that not everything is as simple as we would like and not all the "basics" are always correct, IMHO

            I apologize for the obsession, thanks again for the article
            1. +4
              26 January 2019 12: 03
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              In real history, Russia had NUMERICAL EXCELLENCE near Liaoyang and such (or equality) was to be expected based on a simple analysis of facts that were generally known then.

              Wrong. Witgeft could not know what ground forces we could concentrate, and if he could, he still would not know, because URINE and FOCUS are two big differences. And in order to know the size of the Japanese army, it was necessary to know the Japanese army itself + the possibilities of the Japanese to transfer and supply them to the mainland.
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              Of course, it was very logical for the fleet (which is numerically weaker than the Japanese) to wait for the army (which is numerically not inferior to the Japanese) "to resolve the issue."

              The fleet needed to solve the issue of the defense of Port Arthur on which the Japanese were pressing and the active operations by heavy ships greatly contributed to this. At the same time, the risk of their use was minimal
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              Sometimes it is necessary to "explain the basics".

              The basics are that the Baltic Fleet could not influence the defense of Leningrad in any way, except for artillery impact on the positions of the Germans - there were no sea lanes, breaking which could block the blockade. At the same time, in order to shoot at the Germans, the fleet had to be in Leningrad and Kronstadt, but Wittgeft needed to go to sea to protect Arthur, since for a long time the ground positions were removed from Arthur. In addition, if 1TOE had achieved success in the battle with the Japanese fleet, this would have led to a strategic result - winning the war, and the Baltic Fleet in the Second World War could not count on anything like that. Not to mention the fact that the Baltic Fleet was actually locked in Finnish minefields and aviation, and did not have the opportunity to enter the operational space, and 1TOE had such an opportunity.
              As for the Patriotic 1812 of the year, the length of communications destroyed the Great Army (the Neman crossed over 400 thousand, and Napoleon had less than 150 thousand to Borodino) and Kutuzov knew about this. Alas, this factor did not work in the REV
              1. -1
                26 January 2019 13: 26
                if the 1st TOE were successful in the battle with the Japanese fleet - wassat laughing no comments on this
                Moscow, as an example, is needed in order to understand that the STRATEGIC grounds outweigh some thoughts that some opponents consider the "basics" of TACTICS,
                blockade of Leningrad in the same topic
            2. +3
              26 January 2019 12: 10
              1) It's not very clear where such conclusions come from. "Well-known fact" it was that there is no Circum-Baikal railway. It was a well-known fact that a single-track Trans-Siberian before the war passed no more than four pairs of trains. Here it is, there really were "well-known facts"
              2) To the Russian fleet, "very logical" It was a hindrance to the transfer of Japanese troops from the metropolis. That would really be logical. And simple activity at Port Arthur could solve this problem, because in this case the Japanese would have to land troops not in Chinese ports, but in Korean (Roughly, not in the Far, but in Chemulpo), which would complicate logistics at once. For everything was not very good with the roads in Korea.
              3) And, excuse me, what of this?
              4) In other words, the difference between the "Blockade of Leningrad" and the "Blockade of Port Arthur" is not clear to you?
              1. 0
                26 January 2019 13: 24
                there is no Circum-Baikal railway - if Kuropatkin would have had thousands of 200 near Liaoyang (not less)

                even Makarov and the Great Namesake didn’t agree to breakdown of communications in Korea - so it's just laughing
                1. +1
                  26 January 2019 13: 35
                  there is no Circum-Baikal railway - if Kuropatkin would have had thousands of 200 near Liaoyang (not less)

                  It is clear that there will be no story "from where the conclusions" come from.
                  so just

                  Who would doubt that.
                  even Makarov and the Great Namesake did not agree to breakdown of communications in Korea

                  And what, the concept of logistics ceases to exist from this?
                  1. 0
                    26 January 2019 14: 51
                    It is clear, the story, "where are the conclusions" - read Kuropatkin, at least he has, and that is, brief calculations on the throughput of the railway
                    1. 0
                      26 January 2019 15: 16
                      I have no more questions.
                      1. 0
                        26 January 2019 15: 36
                        as you like) directly "On the reasons for the defeat in the Russo-Japanese War ..." from the railway not only you begin the reasoning, but also Kuropatkin CAM)

                        Shl. As a "world": the combat capability of the squadron and its activity were needed to exclude the landing on the peninsula until they were defeated at Kinzhou, to hinder the use of the Dalny - after such a defeat, - the rest was, alas, beyond her strength
                      2. +1
                        27 January 2019 09: 36
                        1) Kuropatkin, how not to treat him, was an experienced general staff officer and most recently a Minister of War. And now he did know what and how with railways, logistics, and so on. It was due to him by post and education. But what does Witgeft have to do with it?
                        2) The article describes the situation after the battle of Jingzhou, therefore, I sincerely do not understand why you are all this.
                        By the way, proof of the work of Kurropatkin, to which you are not referring?
                      3. +2
                        27 January 2019 10: 23
                        Point one:

                        I will be home in Russia only in a week (New Year holidays) - Kuropatkin is in paper there, so while there are no proofs for specific bottlenecks on hand, I will give a couple of quotes without warning:

                        "If we had a railway prepared for the outbreak of hostilities for at least 6 military trains, we at Wafangou could have not one 1st Siberian corps, but three corps: 1st and 4th Siberian and 10th Army" ...

                        "If we had from the beginning of hostilities at least one military train more, by the time of the battles near Liaoyang, we would have managed to concentrate the 1st Army and 6th Siberian Corps to this point, and with an extra 60 battalions, we would have defeated the Japanese "

                        "In just 1,5 months (47 days) from October 15 to December 1, 257 military, 147 cargo (artillery, quartermaster, Red Cross and railway) and 23 ambulance trains arrived in Harbin, a total of 427 trains, which gives an average of 9 pairs of trains each, including only 5,5 trains with troops.
                        Thus, during the 10 months of the war, the railway increased its work from three military trains to nine. It took an average of more than 1,5 months to add one pair of military trains.
                        Finally, by the summer of 1905, i.e., after 16 months of the war, the railways connecting with the army, as far as I know, reached 12 pairs of military trains on the highway and 18 pairs on the southern branch, i.e., on the highway we still have not reached 14 pairs of military trains, which I requested on February 23, 1904, setting off for war.
                        It can be seen from the foregoing what a decisive role the railroad had in our actions. Each extra military train would give us the opportunity to place in [227] decisive battles one or two extra corps against those that we actually had. Thus, the Ministries of Railways, Finance, and partly the military had a very important and responsible task not to lose a single day to strengthen the road.
                        Looking back at what was accomplished by these departments, one cannot but recognize the achieved results as very large, and the service of all railway agents working day and night is highly tense and selfless.
                        Indeed, having in the summer of 1903 only two military trains for delivering reinforcements to the Far East, in two years we have brought this number to 12 trains, and in the southern highway to 18 pairs, aboutfinish construction of the Circum-Baikal Railway and, what is most instructive, we carry out this work simultaneously by concentrating troops and reserves in the Far East. "

                        Point two:
                        I’m all about the fact that the squadron’s fighting efficiency and its activity were necessary for peninsula landing exceptions until they were defeated at Kinzhou, and then to obstruct the use of the Far - after such a defeat, - the rest, alas, was beyond her strength. There was no question of any disruption of communications in the Korea Strait, and nobody thought of such a task. The same Makarov, IMHO, went to sea, so that the Japanese could not even come up with a landing very close with Port Arthur and no more
                      4. +1
                        29 January 2019 17: 08
                        Hehe .. To a bad dancer ..... The fact that this "experienced general staff officer" wrote about the Japanese army on the eve of the war suggests that he did not understand anything at all.
                      5. 0
                        29 January 2019 17: 46
                        Before the war, writing nonsense about Japan was a good form), despite all the shortcomings of Alekseev, he, IMHO, was almost the only one from Vitgeft who insistently demanded to sharply improve preparations for the war (although he also swaggered in public that he would throw his hats over)
                      6. 0
                        29 January 2019 17: 47
                        What would have changed if he had written at least a little truth? And then: a bad army, because it does not pray to God. The booth.
                      7. 0
                        29 January 2019 18: 19
                        "the fate of the battle does not depend on one soldier, the fate of the battle depends on each of them" (c)

                        Perhaps, admit the truth a few more big bosses would be much more options for Russia:
                        Well, there for half a year to speed up the construction of the railway (really)
                        or add at least an extra case (also real)
                        so little by little, and victory could have developed
        2. -1
          26 January 2019 12: 40
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          let's go, let's arrange for the Japanese in Sasebo "Second Sinop"

          With Sinop, everything is very ambiguous. It was precisely after Sinop that Nakhimov decided not to join the naval battle with the Anglo-Franks, and to flood the ships, which were quite modern at that time, at the entrance to the bay of Sevastopol.
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          for strategic reasons, in 1812 they surrendered Moscow, abandoning "active actions" for another couple of months

          There was no weapon. So we sat in Tarutino. Heavy and partially light weapons were abandoned while retreating from under Borodino.
          It was not Kutuzov who fought on the Berezin with the French (he only watched the battle from afar), but the Danube army of Chichagov. I must say that contrary to myths about the terrible state of the French army, the Danube Russian army on the Berezina was defeated.
          Weapons were brought to Russia from Britain a little later. With these weapons the Russian army later took Paris.
      2. +1
        26 January 2019 12: 57
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I also note that the rejection of the active operations of heavy ships in the area of ​​several tens of miles from their own base cannot be justified by any strategic considerations


        There are several opinions on this issue. If we take the tactics of protecting coastal fortresses from the sea, developed at that time, from mine laying and attempts to block the fairway, the defense should have been carried out by numbered destroyers under the cover of gunboats. But as we know they all ended up in Vladivostok, as for gunboats, in Russia they did not even try to design ships for these purposes. It was not possible to quickly bring several battleships to the outer raid for action in an area of ​​several tens of miles with mine danger and constant enemy control. Witgeft did not have ships to remove these obstacles in order to begin active operations. There was only one cruiser "Novik" and it was not enough for these tasks. The rest of the cruisers could hinder reconnaissance, but they could not eliminate the frequent night laying of mines by the Japanese.
        1. +1
          26 January 2019 13: 20
          There was only one "Novik" - it could have been the title of the whole cycle good
        2. +1
          26 January 2019 17: 29
          Quote: 27091965i
          It was not possible to quickly bring several armadillos to an external raid for operations in the area of ​​several tens of miles with mine danger and constant enemy control

          PR Makarov - it even worked out, in addition, there were no problems withdrawing armadillos in the morning in order to return them to the raid later in the evening. But even spending the night not in an external raid - generally speaking, not a tragedy
          1. +3
            26 January 2019 19: 55
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            PR Makarov - it even worked out, in addition, there were no problems withdrawing armadillos in the morning in order to return them to the raid later in the evening.


            How these exits ended we all know. In addition, by this time, the Japanese had not yet completed their attempts to block the fairway and establish all their minefields. V.K. Vitgeft was much more complicated than S.O. Makarov. Look what inheritance he got.

            " They had to fear not only the fire of the Japanese squadron, but also the mines that had just done them so much damage, increasing the relative strength of the Japanese. This moment of the blockade can be considered a significant triumph of mines. From this moment on, the Port Arthur raid is an object of fear for all warring ships, fears are even more legitimate, floating mines easily moved by currents may not be noticed even by those who set them. "Naval lessons of the Russian-Japanese war. Blockade and attack on military ports. 1905.

            The fleet was not technically ready to deal with the mine threat.
            1. +1
              26 January 2019 20: 30
              Plus, but add five more cents:
              based on the fact that Kuropatkin will be defeated, probably it was necessary to take an extremely risky decision for everyone and spend the night on an external roadstead (well, for example, so as not to miss the firewalls with guarantee)
              based on the real volume of possible knowledge of Witgeft, he acted optimally
              1. -2
                26 January 2019 20: 58
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                based on the real volume of possible knowledge of Witgeft, he acted optimally

                He would probably have dragged all this heap of iron to Vlad. If he had not died on the bridge of Cesarevich in his last battle.
            2. +1
              27 January 2019 10: 26
              Quote: 27091965i
              How these outputs ended we all know

              We know, and we also know that Witgeft was not threatened
              Quote: 27091965i
              V.K. Vitgeft was much more complicated than S.O. Makarov.

              Only for the simple reason that Witgeft did not initially act
              1. 0
                27 January 2019 12: 26
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Only for the simple reason that Witgeft did not initially act


                Dear Andrey, a completely logical question arises. What ships should V.K. Vitgeft be used to conduct active operations and against whom?
                Three battleships that, in joint actions, could not reach speeds of more than 13-14 knots or the three remaining cruisers, "Diana" can be ignored. What units of Japanese ships could they act against?
                They could not retire from Port Arthur for 40-50 miles, the Japanese having noticed such activity sooner or later would be able to impose a battle on them, and the battle would not end without hits, and clearly not in favor of the Port Arthur squadron. What would be the damage is not known, but it required the repair of ships. Despite the fact that part of the squadron was already under repair.
                With such activity, only a couple of weeks later, only destroyers could go into the sea.
                1. -2
                  27 January 2019 13: 07
                  Quote: 27091965i
                  What ships should V.K. Vitgeft be used to conduct active operations and against whom?

                  In fact, there are questions for Wittgeft.
                  1. Why was not created a high-speed and power armored wing Cesarevich and Victory (maybe even Pereset) for action on enemy communications (Sea of ​​Japan).
                  2. Why wasn’t Retwisan sent to the Pacific Ocean in raiding?
                  3. Why were Bayan, Boyarin, Askold and Novik not transferred to Vladivostok for action from there in the Sea of ​​Japan?
                  The RIF was extremely passive. And in fact he did not render any assistance to the ground forces. Although there were opportunities for this.
                  The 1st TOE did not have the strength to conduct a linear battle (even against 4 Japanese EDBs), but it also did not lead the cruising-raider.
        3. 0
          26 January 2019 19: 51
          Quote: 27091965i
          Witgeft did not have ships to remove these obstacles in order to begin active operations. There was only one cruiser "Novik" and it was not enough for these tasks. The rest of the cruisers could hinder reconnaissance, but they could not eliminate the frequent night laying of mines by the Japanese.

          And what prevented the same two "goddesses" from being put out to sea and hunting Japanese destroyers at night? The risks are minimal. Torpedoes of that time were not too dangerous and the base was just a stone's throw away.
          1. +2
            27 January 2019 00: 17
            And what prevented the same two "goddesses" from being taken out to sea and hunted ...

            Apparently "something" interfered with epaulets)))
          2. +2
            27 January 2019 09: 39
            Actually, the goddesses were mainly engaged in the firework service. there, even under Makarov, they made a nook of booms and mine networks, where the duty cruiser occupied the position.
            1. +2
              27 January 2019 10: 30
              made a nook of booms and mine nets, where the duty cruiser occupied the position. - would not be sitting in a cubbyhole - "Petropavlovsk" would not have exploded, there was really a risk of losing the goddess in active actions at night from a torpedo attack
              1. +3
                27 January 2019 10: 46
                ..wouldn't have been sitting in a cubbyhole - the "Petropavlovsk" wouldn't have exploded ...

                Yes, but if Petropavlovsk didn’t explode, then they wouldn’t drown Yashima and Hatsuse ... (in order to do something Russian must be pissed off)))
                1. 0
                  27 January 2019 11: 16
                  but if our not, but yes feel
                  1. +3
                    27 January 2019 11: 23
                    if our not, and yes them ..

                    She, in Russian, is unlikely))) As if they had alternative to the REV, but this episode is preserved unchanged, at most, so that Makarov would be saved. Not because of his fighting qualities, but for energy...
              2. +3
                27 January 2019 15: 28
                The trick is that just putting the cruiser in the middle of the raid and no one will do anything to him, you can only in your fantasies ...
                1. 0
                  27 January 2019 15: 47
                  and nobody will do anything to him, it is only possible in your fantasies ... - lol

                  firstly, the cruiser is floating, but not standing,
                  secondly, night reconnaissance and target designation are provided by a bunch of smaller vessels,
                  thirdly, the risk of losing the "dasha" is better than almost certainly ditching the "capital" ship on mines,
                  fourthly, if you do not risk it, the "dasha" will still be drowned, and so at least there is a chance,
                  fifthly, "dasha" almost always has time to be washed ashore, in extreme cases,
                  sixthly, damaged Japanese destroyers are much more difficult to retreat.

                  Waiting for counterarguments)
                  1. -1
                    27 January 2019 15: 58
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    firstly, the cruiser is floating, but not standing,

                    Then he walks.
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    the risk of losing the "dasha" is better than almost certainly ditching the "capital" ship on mines,

                    The combat value of Petropavlovsk was probably higher than any goddess. But not much.
                    Disgusting was pepelats. No wonder he was chosen as the flagship.
                    It was good in it, it was British cars (weak, but reliable) and new artillery (not very reliable and not very strong). Everything else was slop.
                    1. 0
                      27 January 2019 16: 24
                      I am never going to idealize "Petropavlovsk", but I will note that I would not hesitate for a second if I was offered to agree to the "drowning" of two goddesses of domestic production for the sake of the presence of "Bayan" and "Petropavlovsk" in battle 28.07.1904/XNUMX/XNUMX

                      It is clear that Togo got sick and relaxed, if there were "Bayan" and "Petropavlovsk" this would not have happened, and from the very beginning there would have been "Asama" and "Yakumo", IMHO, but if there were no Bayan and "Petropavlovsk" the presence from the very beginning of "Asama" and "Yakumo" would make the prospects of the First Squadron generally bleak
                      1. -3
                        27 January 2019 17: 14
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        "drowning" of two Russian-made goddesses for the sake of "Bayan" and "Petropavlovsk" in battle 28.07.1904/XNUMX/XNUMX

                        Alas, a young man, but neither Bayan nor Petropavlovsk were suitable for a linear battle. And on that day there was some semblance of it.
                        You could load a button accordion there in a pack of 20 pieces, and absolutely nothing would change.
                        Petropavlovsk could somehow help with its guns. But only if they hadn’t shot him. His defense was far worse than even the goner Peresvet. And worse than the goners of Sevastopol. Therefore, it was the first candidate for drowning. Weak link, so to speak.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        It is clear that Togo got sick and relaxed, in the presence of "Bayan" and "Petropavlovsk" this would not have happened

                        Once again, I repeat, Bayanov, you could easily add 20 pieces. And without any visible result. It was not a battle ship.
                        Petropalovsk was not a ship of linear battle. But he had powerful cannons, so he could have been of some use. Although with its level of security, this is very doubtful. Most likely they would have banged him. And relatively fast.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        the presence from the very beginning of "Asama" and "Yakumo" would make the prospects of the First Squadron generally bleak

                        Asama and Yakumo are not linear battle ships. Where they were at the time of this battle is absolutely unimportant.
                        You somehow do not understand the difference between battleships (ships of linear battle) and others. And she is and she matters.
                      2. 0
                        27 January 2019 18: 36
                        I understand the difference. But "Defense" vs. Scheer is still not the same as "Valor of Admiral Kamimura" (special respect to Baron Kato).
                  2. +2
                    27 January 2019 16: 39
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    firstly, the cruiser is floating, but not standing,

                    I'm sorry where the cruiser walks? And how does one navigate in the dark? Simply, if you are not in the know, then neither GPS nor echo sounders yet. (and the destroyers have three times less sediment and they can walk freely through minefields)
                    night reconnaissance and target designation are provided by a bunch of smaller vessels,

                    In general, they are not provided with anything. Wrong technologies. by the way with serviceable destroyers, too, everything is not very good.
                    the risk of losing the "dasha" is better than almost certainly ditching the "capital" ship on mines,

                    For which finger do not bite, it still hurts.
                    if you do not risk, then "give" will still sink, and so at least there is a chance

                    There is no chance. From the word - at all. More precisely, small destroyers find a large cruiser.
                    damaged Japanese destroyers are much more difficult to retreat.

                    you damage them first :)) There is nothing complicated there. The force was removed, torches from the pipes stopped beating. radars were not delivered. And yet, yes, you offer to exchange the first-ranking cruiser, of which there are four in Arthur, for which the torpedo boat has four dozen.
                    Good layout :)))
                    Waiting for counterarguments

                    Maybe I'll wait for the arguments first.
                    1. +1
                      27 January 2019 16: 53
                      And how does one navigate in the dark? - belay A maximum of THREE miles to the channel of the fairway, walks along the coast, where there are a lot of observation posts, searchlights, batteries

                      In general, they are not provided with anything. - stop but at least gunboats, you don’t understand that the outer raid is a space FIVE-SIX miles long and THREE-FOUR wide?

                      Whichever finger you bite, it still hurts. - compared "Petropavlovsk" with a finger laughing

                      There is no chance. From the word - at all. - The classical theory of probability does not allow values ​​equal to zero - to school! am
                      And they’ll sink her 280 mm mortars, if you don’t get out)

                      ... radars were not delivered. - stop Do you not exactly understand that an external raid is a space FIVE-SIX miles long and THREE-FOUR wide?
                      1. +2
                        27 January 2019 17: 30
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Do you not exactly understand that an external raid is a space FIVE-SIX miles long and THREE-FOUR wide?

                        Do you understand that the width of the mine trawl Schultz (times of WWI)! - 130 meters. Is the cruiser circulation diameter at least three times larger?
                      2. -3
                        27 January 2019 18: 29
                        Colleague, the drain is counted. hi
                      3. +2
                        27 January 2019 18: 33
                        And then you complain that nobody here loves you laughing
                      4. 0
                        27 January 2019 18: 55
                        In real life they love me even less (not get used to it), but my pluses are appreciated (I will try to make it here too) smile
                      5. +4
                        27 January 2019 21: 19
                        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                        Colleague, the drain is counted. hi

                        That’s not for you to say that :)
                        Are you sure you won, just because you don’t understand what to write ...
                      6. 0
                        28 January 2019 05: 40
                        colleague, no one fought with you
                        I was just trying to explain to you that all your conclusions do not work, if the arena of actions is very small and is located at the fairway of the fortress

                        Port Arthur’s outer raid is slightly smaller than the Solomon Islands — it is FIVE-SIX Mile long and THREE-FOUR wide

                        I do not know the normative values ​​of the detection range in the Russian Navy, but, for example, in the Royal Navy, Jelliko set the standard for guaranteed detection ranges of a quarter mile for small objects on the darkest night in bad weather conditions for the North Sea (for the Yellow Sea in summer this figure, IMHO, must be multiplied by a minimum of four)

                        You don’t understand how to use Port Arthur to organize sentinel service at the Outer Raid or pretend to be?
                      7. +2
                        28 January 2019 10: 29
                        I was just trying to explain to you that all your conclusions do not work, if the arena of actions is very small and is located at the fairway of the fortress

                        Sorry, but all that your offer will lead to is the useless loss of a cruiser. most likely in mines. And there are thousands of them in that really small space. In addition, to find a large cruiser in this space is a much simpler task than a small destroyer.
                        And if you think that navigating a ship in poor visibility in a limited space is as easy as driving a pencil in a pattern, then I have nothing to tell you.
                        The Royal Navy set the standard for a guaranteed detection range of a quarter mile for small objects on the darkest night in bad weather conditions for the North Sea (for the Yellow Sea in summer this figure, IMHO, must be multiplied by at least four)

                        You will not believe it, but in the yellow sea the weather also happens, fogs and other delights, so IMHO is not right.
                        A quarter mile, it's rude 500 yards. If we don’t take absolutely ancient samples, then even the weakest Japanese 356 mm torpedoes hit on 600-800 (Sample 1893; 1897 and 1899), and more modern 450 mm (starting from Sample 1897) at 1000 yards at a speed of 27 knots.
                        Congratulations, you just lost your cruiser, and you only learned about the attack when the bombs sent Whitehead mine on you.
                        You don’t understand how to use Port Arthur to organize sentinel service at the Outer Raid or pretend to be?

                        I know exactly how the fate of "Sevastopol" is in the White Wolf Bay. There were torpedo boats, a gunboat, coastal batteries and searchlights, plus mine nets.
                        This engine will not fly.
                      8. +1
                        28 January 2019 12: 53
                        A colleague, it seems to me that you have inattentively read my comments (if I was inaudible, I apologize):

                        1. I wrote that the cruiser is behind the lines of lighter ships, which provides reconnaissance - backlighting - help:
                        There are 4 gunboats, which, to pleasant surprise, turned out to be very problematic for the Japanese destroyers, there are 3 clippers (old and not very sorry for them) - 7 ships to go at a distance of 25-30 cables from the coast are very good to confidently patrol the front seven miles
                        If you add to them half a dozen destroyers 10 cables harder - the mouse will not slip

                        2. I meant that the point with the circle - the cruiser (I was not completely intelligible here) is located about 15 cable from the coast (walking) and 10 cable behind the gunboat line, so you cannot get it with a torpedo until you cross this very gunboat line

                        3. A slightly different discussion thread for this post was my suggestion, if it smells of fried, spend the night on a raid by cable armadillos five from the shore, entangled in nets

                        A pair of initial inputs:
                        1. From one torpedo, a cruiser will not go to the bottom with a stone - it will always have time to hit the shore
                        2.Two torpedoes in a cruiser can be planted very surprisingly
                        3.1. I very much doubt and, IMHO, it is reasonable that the weather in the Yellow Sea is much worse than, for example, in the Black Sea, and there, usually at night, visibility is very good
                        3.2. I do not doubt for a second that bad weather = big problems for the destroyer of that time, so it is not known to whom it is more to the advantage
                        4. The example of "Sevastopol" says that the steam locomotive is quite volatile:
                        “For all attacks, the Japanese fired about 80 torpedoes, lost two destroyers (No. 42 and 53), and another 13 were seriously damaged (some of them did not enter service until the end of the war). 8 degrees, however, no longer being able to go to sea, he continued to function as a floating battery. "
                        Dozens of destroyers minus + heels for a long time for repairs for the sake of ONE hit in the battleship - I'm bankrupt) here you also need to take into account that a steam boat "Mikasa" crept with this torpedo, which no one would let "sneak" in summer conditions
                      9. +2
                        29 January 2019 16: 36
                        Yes, I roughly understood your train of thought, but the fact is that .... a cruiser of the first rank in this scheme is superfluous.
                        For the Japanese destroyers, only one gunboat, the Gilyak, was dangerous; the other three had old and slow-firing artillery. They were good against fire-ships, hit once, consider the job done. It's the same song with clippers. 28klb six-inch at the time of RYAV that still sucks. Mine cruisers, yes, but they also need to be re-equipped, because their art is 47mm Hotchkiss.
                        That is, everything is possible, but the goddess here is only as a donor deck 75mm Kane.
                        there are no free guns in Arthur. After all, they were not just removed from ships.
                        Numbered Japanese destroyers it’s not a god news of what kind of loss and exchange them, for, maybe not a very good first-ranking ship, this is a very profitable exchange
                      10. 0
                        29 January 2019 17: 25
                        I also understood your train of thought, but the fact is that .... a cruiser of the first rank, in this scheme is BEST.

                        Gunboats and clippers are primarily a watch. And to break it seriously - this is a cruiser)
                      11. +1
                        29 January 2019 22: 14
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Numbered Japanese destroyers it’s not a god news of what kind of loss and exchange them, for, maybe not a very good first-ranking ship, this is a very profitable exchange

                        The mines were not set mainly minosocks but Japanese steamers converted into minzags. The meaning of the proposal is that they need not only to be scared away but destroyed, but for this, additional patrolling in the outer zone is needed to intercept the Japanese forces on the move.

                        Well, an alternative option, to sit and not lean out, we saw in real history. As a result, the Japanese stuffed their mines into all the pockets of Witgeft. As a result, they were constantly risking not cruisers, but battleships, and in the permanent repair, one pair of blown up armadillos was standing all the time. However, it was quite suitable for Witgeft.
                      12. 0
                        29 January 2019 17: 30
                        If our fleet exchanged heels of lousy destroyers for a ship of the first rank, then so far this heroic event has been trumpeted. The Japanese are really brave and courageous sailors to go on fire on these troughs.
                      13. 0
                        29 January 2019 18: 11
                        But here I do not agree, to put it mildly: Sevastopol is not destroyed, but damaged. He was one of the large ships, the coast was weak, the weather was unsuccessful. Damage it six months earlier, IMHO, would be patched. The Japanese showed heroism, I agree. For ours it would be a great victory, I also agree. But the example of Sevastopol never proves to me the impossibility of spending the night on an external raid
                      14. 0
                        29 January 2019 19: 56
                        Quote: mmaxx
                        The Japanese are really brave and courageous sailors

                        Yes, here, as it were, no one objects.
                      15. +1
                        29 January 2019 17: 26
                        Everything is just like that. White Wolf Bay is one symbolic name. I had the opinion that Essen brought an armadillo there to avoid shame. There was no chance to leave. This bay is just a piece of the open sea off the coast.
                        Port Arthur trap. It is enough to see him once. There and now, the Chinese are holding a symbolic fleet of junk that does not go anywhere.
                      16. +2
                        29 January 2019 18: 06
                        Yes, plus, this is a demonstrative death in a battle, such as not everyone merged like cattle in a slaughterhouse in an internal raid
                      17. +1
                        29 January 2019 17: 14
                        The outer raid of Port Arthur is almost an open sea. Passage yard.
                      18. 0
                        29 January 2019 18: 13
                        Damn, for a long time I have not been "cut" on the topic of the deployment of the squadron in Dalny)
                      19. 0
                        2 February 2019 15: 58
                        Yes .... One may wonder why the base was not made there. Maybe because Arthur is closer to the end of the peninsula ..., And most likely the inertia of thinking. The authorities decided in due time and did not change anything. For a commercial port, a first-class place was chosen. Maybe at first they did not expect such a growth of the fleet. They did not expect a real war. Nevertheless, at first it was very difficult to imagine that the Japanese would go to war.
                        But one thing is clear: this is the last and worthless place that remains of those who disassembled frisky states. Well, and it was necessary that the Japanese did not go there. And the Japanese entered ... differently.
                      20. 0
                        2 February 2019 16: 11
                        And most likely the inertia of thinking. - yes, I agree + no one thought at the time of the capture of Port Arthur that the first squadron would be 2-3 heavy ships, but much more
                        Well, still, in Port Arthur it’s convenient to sit back from the British, and in the Far Entrance there are wide entrances: if you want, if you don’t want to, you’ll have to fight
            2. +2
              27 January 2019 20: 55
              Quote: Senior Sailor

              Actually, the goddesses were mainly engaged in the firework service.

              Firewall and hunting are the exact opposite. I’m talking specifically about long-range patrols and the shooting at close range of caught minnos. And on the firewall you can put some sort of Petropavlovsk, push it only farther ahead and cover it with gunboats.
        4. +1
          27 January 2019 00: 14
          The rest of the cruisers could interfere with reconnaissance, but they could not eliminate the frequent night mines by the Japanese.

          Eto why could not? Because you didn’t try? Two goddesses (and there each 20 * 75mm) in the raid and a spotlight from a cliff, no Japanese would turn up.
          1. +2
            27 January 2019 08: 03
            Quote: anzar
            Eto why could not? Because you didn’t try? Two goddesses (and there each 20 * 75mm) in the raid and a spotlight from a cliff, no Japanese would turn up.


            "… ..“Diana”, with its not very high speed, was clearly assigned a secondary role. The only worthy occupation that she found was a guard service at Port Arthur Raid ....
            …… .In the beginning of April, the Pallada was taken out of the dock, although its repair afloat continued until the end of the month. After the end of the reception of supplies and tests, she, along with "Diana", began to take duty on the roads
            …… "

            As we know from further events, this did not help much in countering the mining of the external raid. At night, these cruisers could act as a firewall, and they were not allowed to perform TTX operations in the outer roads during the dark. This required more maneuverable and high-speed ships, with less displacement and draft.
            1. +2
              27 January 2019 08: 14
              This required more maneuverable and high-speed ships, with less displacement and draft. - where exactly were they needed?

              Port Arthur outer raid plan showing locations of destroyed Japanese mines from August to December 1904:

              1. +1
                27 January 2019 09: 31
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                Port Arthur outer raid plan showing locations of destroyed Japanese mines from August to December 1904:


                "........ “Bayan”, walking, judging by the descriptions, in the same direction - in the middle of the distance between the buoys of the exposed mine barrage of the land department and the steamer “Khaidar” flooded in front of the harbor entrance, hit the mine with the right side..... "

                Quote: Andrey Shmelev

                This required more maneuverable and high-speed ships, with less displacement and draft. - where exactly were they needed?


                Removing a mine threat involves not only clearing the external raid of minefields, but also destroying mine carriers. As a rule, minefields were installed to destroy ships with a large draft of cruisers and armadillos, which limited the freedom of maneuvering in the outer raid. Therefore, the Japanese used them to set up not large minefields to effectively fight cruisers with destroyers of the enemy.
                1. 0
                  27 January 2019 09: 54
                  there is no need to talk about the effective fight of cruisers against enemy destroyers, the Japanese used them to plant small minefields. - why, we put a couple of cruisers a little more seaward than always and cover the entire clearing of the "outer raid" with fire: this is clearly visible on the map - even cruisers do not need to run anywhere
                  1. +3
                    27 January 2019 09: 58
                    Are you serious now?
                    1. 0
                      27 January 2019 10: 28
                      seriously, we just put points and draw circles from them with a radius of forty cable - it is MUCH more difficult to throw an external raid with mines, and about torpedo attacks - gunboats, etc. to help
      3. 0
        28 January 2019 11: 27
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I also note that the rejection of the active operations of heavy ships in the area of ​​several tens of miles from their own base cannot be justified by any strategic considerations

        I think he absolutely did not want a possible repetition of the story with Makarov (and this catastrophe still strongly pressed him psychologically). And therefore, he did not dare to withdraw heavy ships.
  3. 0
    26 January 2019 10: 02
    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    . I would have expected the same thing at Witgeft's place: puff out her cheeks, and then merge. Moreover, IMHO, Witgeft could not help but realize that this attack of belligerence of the governor was from St. Petersburg, that the governor had voiced it in fact.

    Interestingly, what about Makarov, in your opinion? Why did he immediately begin active actions?
    1. 0
      26 January 2019 11: 28
      Makarov independently and initially chose a risky option and did not take the initiative himself, Vitgeft preferred that the outcome of the war be decided on land. This is a creepy "off topic" here, so I hope there will be a suitable post on the site - we will discuss. drinks
      1. +1
        26 January 2019 12: 47
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        Witgeft preferred that the outcome of the war be decided on land.

        He decided on land. In fact, too much attention has been paid to Port Arthur, Tsushima and the war at sea in general. Those events do not deserve this.
        Yes, the fleet could help the army great. But it didn’t help. This was to be expected and had to rely on their own strength. They counted on them. But they did not calculate.
        The surface fleet in Russia is generally a contraption purely for show-offs. Expensive, of course. But just a show off.
        1. +2
          26 January 2019 13: 15
          He decided on land. In fact, too much attention has been paid to Port Arthur, Tsushima and the war at sea in general. - thanks, colleague!

          many times "played RYAV by cards": three, maximum, four additional corps by 01.01.1904 in Manchuria and there is no sense even to play for the Japanese; if at a minimum, then ONE additional corps + a little "special reserve" from the Black Sea + a year to strengthen positions at Kinzhou = VERY difficult for the Japanese it turns out.
          But, as all of the above is prosaic, it is much more interesting to draw the 100500th "alternative Bayan" and buy "exotic cruisers"
          1. +3
            26 January 2019 16: 43
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            much more interesting to draw the 100500th "alternative Bayan" and buy "exotic cruisers"

            Yes, I agree. The childhood dream that "if you make exactly the same Bayan, but with one more gun," and then a total hit will happen, it surprises.
            Do not happen.
            And from another dozen Bayans not to happen.
            War is a tricky thing. A war at sea, a difficult thing in the square.
            The RIF had the strength to wage war at sea. Not rich, but quite serious. After all, a war at sea is not necessarily a battle of linear forces. Which the RIF just didn’t have.
            But the war on the sea of ​​the Reef, in addition to rare and often clumsy attempts, did not actually lead. I do not know the reason for this. But if we look at the actions of the Russian troops on land, it was about the same.
            Those. the defeat of the RIF cannot be reduced simply to a shortage (or shortcomings) of ships. In the "collective farm" everything was somehow not quite so. And if we look at the composition of the same naval command (the same Jessen, Makarov and Rozhdestvensky), then this is not at all the case.
            1. +1
              26 January 2019 16: 52
              I agree, colleague, I am against the "hypercriticism" adopted in the early 30s, but "In the" collective farm "everything was somehow not quite right." There are a lot of options for Russia, while everything is strictly within the framework of the knowledge and structures existing at that time
              1. +1
                26 January 2019 16: 57
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                There are plenty of options for Russia, while everything is strictly within the framework of the knowledge and structures that existed at that time

                Well said.
                I fully support.
                1. +1
                  29 January 2019 17: 35
                  It is just that Comrade Lenin wrote in his article (generally very correct) that the war was being decided at sea. That's all tryndely. And about the boats somehow more interesting than about some kind of infantry. Well, our fleet was so uncovered that from such an insult everyone was vividly interested in the issue.
                  1. 0
                    29 January 2019 17: 58
                    I completely agree with this interpretation, I’ll note from myself that the defeat went into the hands and that the donations cut off funding for the army in favor of the autotopes (at least for several years)
    2. 0
      26 January 2019 12: 44
      Quote: kvs207
      Interestingly, what about Makarov, in your opinion? Why did he immediately begin active actions?

      What?
      Underpasses under cover of coastal batteries?
      Is this action? This is a show off.
      Active actions were taken just by Wittgeft. Having sent a third of the Japanese linear fleet to the bottom in one day. He risked, ordering to put the mines where they were placed, very much.
      1. +2
        26 January 2019 13: 19
        Plus. How easy is it to get rid of Vitgeft and blame everything on him? I would like a la Victor Suvorov to ask fans of Makarov: "And you Tukhacheskiy ..., ugh, that is Makarov, I wanted to say - have you read it?"
        1. +1
          29 January 2019 17: 37
          Ага.
          For example, I was tired of looking for his "Tactics". Downloaded from some flyitbit or so a scan with a British library stamp !!!!! I read it lightly. And I understood why this book was never published again.
      2. +4
        26 January 2019 14: 01
        Kolya, are you again for yours? For the hundredth time I repeat to you, the mines were delivered contrary to Witgeft’s order, and not pursuant to that.
        The commander of the Amur was risking, violating the order, but not Wittgeft, who was afraid of everything, no matter what happened.
        Change the record, old friend, tired of it.
        1. +3
          26 January 2019 14: 59
          Well, the commander of the Amur could not land mines without an order. You do not understand the rules of the RIF! He would have been prevented from doing this by his own officers. Especially along the Amur River destroyers participated in the provision. So you want to say that the destroyer commanders also violated Witgeft’s order? So I'm sorry but the fact that the mines were set contrary to the order of the acting commander of the squadron is nonsense, and it does not fit either with common sense or with the orders that reigned in the RIF
          1. -1
            26 January 2019 16: 24
            Quote: Nehist
            So you want to say that the destroyer commanders also violated Witgeft’s order? So I'm sorry but the fact that the mines were set contrary to the order of the acting commander of the squadron is nonsense, and it does not fit either with common sense or with the orders prevailing in the RIF

            People never served in the army. Therefore, they do not know and do not understand what is there and how it works.
            But they read the "correct books". And there "everything is written in detail."
          2. +2
            26 January 2019 17: 32
            Quote: Nehist
            Well, the commander of the Amur could not land mines without an order. You do not understand the rules of the RIF! He would have been prevented from doing this by his own officers.

            Nevertheless, he put it, it is a fact. By the way, the Russian commanders periodically violated the orders given to them - before taking at least the actions of the cruisers in the battle of Arthur on 27 in January - and nothing happened without officer riots
          3. +3
            27 January 2019 09: 42
            Well, the commander of the Amur could not land mines without an order.

            Well, why without an order. He just had an order, the question is where he put them.
            And why, it may turn out that the order was not official, because giving an order to mine international waters is a little wrong ... but this is only a hunch.
            1. +1
              27 January 2019 11: 09
              ... because giving an order to mine international waters is a little wrong ...

              Uv. colleague, here "law" was mainly interested in Russians))) And how was this war generally waged on the territory and water area of ​​two neutral states (Korea and China)? So what? In their ter. waters it is possible, but in the "international waters" - no? And how was it that the British English Channel was mined in WWI?
              The same "considerations" were expressed about the Varyag in Chemulpo. "Neutral" raid! For whom is "neutral"? For the Russians, of course, the Japanese can do anything there.
              1. -2
                27 January 2019 16: 05
                Quote: anzar
                So what? In their ter. waters it is possible, but in the "international waters" - no?

                So.
                Quote: anzar
                And how is it that in the WWII the English shaving was mined?

                So there were no international transport corridors. And if they were, they were not mined.
                International law, this is not a stack of empty pieces of paper. For its violation and the gallows you can easily please.
                Quote: anzar
                The same "considerations" were expressed about the Varyag in Chemulpo. "Neutral" raid! For whom is "neutral"? For the Russians, of course, the Japanese can do anything there.

                He was neutral until the Japanese declared war on Korea. Those. before the arrival of Japanese troops.
                When they arrived there, the raid had already ceased to be neutral.
        2. -2
          26 January 2019 16: 22
          Quote: Comrade
          the mines were delivered contrary to Wittgeft’s order, and not pursuant to it.
          The commander of the Amur was risking, violating the order, but not Wittgeft, who was afraid of everything, no matter what happened.

          I highly recommend carefully studying the issue of exactly where the mines were displayed. This is the most important thing in that story. They were exhibited there not by chance, but with a distant sight. And the calculations brilliantly justified.
          Something "genius Makarov" did not dare to make such a move. And the "indecisive Vitgeft" decided. And yes, the move was very risky.
          1. +5
            26 January 2019 17: 29
            You would also take a closer look at the sources. Ivanov did indeed receive permission, but he put mines not where Vitgeft insisted, but closer to the route of the usual route of Japanese ships. So, it turns out not "thanks", but "in spite of".
            1. +4
              26 January 2019 17: 38
              Quote: kvs207
              You would also take a closer look at the sources.

              Nmkolashi has its own alternative universe for understanding the historical nuances wink laughing feel
              1. +3
                27 January 2019 17: 11
                Well, he's an "intelligence cruiser"! wassat laughing
            2. -4
              26 January 2019 17: 40
              Quote: kvs207
              You would also take a closer look at the sources.

              Quote: kvs207
              Ivanov did receive permission, but he did not put mines where Vitgeft insisted, but closer to the usual route of Japanese ships.

              Quote: kvs207
              So, it turns out not "thanks", but "in spite of".

              You obviously don’t understand what this is all about.
              I repeat to you, this is the army. There is nothing and never happens just like that.
              And what is written in the "sources", then I am now throwing links to the flat earth with a wagon. And also to the alien base in Antarctica and the Mariana Trench. More about an empty moon inside, if you like.
              Once again I draw your attention to the fact that laying mines where they were installed was extremely risky. And no captain, if he was not a natural violent madman, would never go for it.
              And also that the Japanese ships went where they went, for a reason. They knew what they were doing. Rather, they thought they knew. But Witgeft outplayed them.
              1. +4
                26 January 2019 18: 01
                Quote: vwwv20
                But Witgeft outplayed them.

                lol fool
                Quote: vwwv20
                Once again I draw your attention to the fact that laying mines where they were installed was extremely risky. And no captain, if he was not a natural violent madman, would never go for it.

                Right now, Nikolasha, we learn from the memoirs of Lieutenant Shter from "Novik", as it was in reality, and not in your alternative reality wink
                While the Japanese raided Port Arthur, our fleet, although it did not take an active part, managed to take revenge on the Japanese for the death of Admiral Makarov and for the death of Petropavlovsk. It happened as follows. To prevent the Japanese from bombarding the fortress from the sea, minefields were set up in places where Japanese battleships could go without battery shots: they placed a fence at Cape Liaoteshan, another from Talienwan, and finally Admiral Witgeft decided to put the third in the center, approximately SO from Arthur is 7 miles away. The commander of the Amur mine transport, the captain of the 2nd rank Ivanov, who was sent for this purpose, has long worked out his plan and, taking advantage of the access to the sea, carried it out. The fact is that the Japanese at that time had already established the correct blockade of the port of Arthur and daily it was possible to see Japanese armadillos and cruisers maneuvering at a distance of 10 miles. They chose this distance because the only long-range battery on the maritime front, the Electric Cliff, could shoot at the greatest distance of 100 cable, equal to 10 miles; the Japanese knew this, of course, and, as it were, mocked our artillerymen, who were constantly ready at the guns, waiting for at least a little rapprochement to send a shell. But no, the Japanese just kept to the maximum range and didn’t move half a cabelt either in either direction. Noticing this systematic maneuver, the Amur commander, instead of following the command of the squadron commander, took advantage of a strip of fog hiding the Japanese sentinel ships, ran to the place of constant walk of the Japanese battleships and threw several rows of mines. Admiral Witgeft, learning about this trick, naturally became angry and, having called the guilty commander, told him a lot of troubles, even threatening to remove him from command.

                Source: http://statehistory.ru/books/A--P--SHter_Na-kreysere-Novik/6

                So, Nicholas, the true hero of this episode of Ivanov, and not Wittgeft Yes
                1. -4
                  26 January 2019 18: 14
                  Quote: Rurikovich
                  learn from the memoirs of Lieutenant Steer from "Novik"

                  Another book in the army never served. And he does not know the details of the case.
                  1. +2
                    26 January 2019 18: 20
                    If you had come to my brigade when I once served sergeants in training there on a contract, I would have instantly dropped you from the virtual into real reality, not too lazy to write a couple of abstracts on engineering training, fire and like a cherry on a cake in sports training lol wink
                    Quote: vwwv20
                    never served in the army.
                    1. +2
                      26 January 2019 18: 41
                      A colleague, no offense, but I think if you put the minefield where you wanted, you would have some difficulties in the service.
                      IMHO, it seems to me, at least half of them wore shoulder straps, why is this bazaar about them, we are not discussing some specific knowledge like "how to deceive the apparatus that counts Bernoulli's hump", but simple facts.
                      There is also a saying "he lies like an eyewitness." Steer was hardly even an eyewitness to the showdown, any "Bubble" could tell him that, and then it started. Maybe you shouldn't take a position like "my book is the only correct one." Let's live together and discuss constructively drinks
                      1. +4
                        26 January 2019 18: 52
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Let's live together and discuss constructively

                        Who argues wink It's just that some .... hmmm .... commentators have their own established opinions about some things (like our "hero" that the death of "Yashima" and "Hatsusa" is the merit of only a genius Vitgeft and not at all Ivanov, who violated the order and placed mines where necessary wassat )
                        Therefore, "lying as an eyewitness" does not work here - there are references to the fact that Ivanov violated the order of Vitgeft. And the result of this violation is known. It will not be possible to constructively treat the opinion of Witgeft's genius at this moment, because the reality is that Steer saw with his own eyes what he was describing, and we just click on the keyboard and try to look like "admirals", "geniuses" and wonder "if bydakaby" .. ... hi
                      2. -2
                        26 January 2019 19: 08
                        Quote: Rurikovich
                        that the death of "Yasima" and "Hatsuse" is the merit of only the genius of Vitgeft and not at all Ivanov, who violated the order and put mines where necessary

                        Quote: Rurikovich
                        there are references to the fact that Ivanov violated Witgeft’s order. And the result of this violation is known.

                        No, he did not serve in the army. And if he served, then even worse, I did not understand how it was and what was arranged.
                        1. Ivanov in your interpretation violated the order. And this is a tribunal. Regardless of the end result.
                        He was not given to the tribunal. So, he acted by order.
                        2. Ivanov, in your interpretation, took the initiative that led to the failure to comply with the order. And this is already guaranteed by the conviction of the tribunal. But this really was not. Hence, there was no failure to comply with the order.
                        Ivanov didn’t personally set mines himself. There were still a bunch of officers. His arbitrariness would simply be locked in a cabin. Where he would sit until returning to the PA and before surrendering to the tribunal.
                        Army, this is not the gang of Old Man Makhno. If you did not understand this at one time, then it is a pity.
                      3. +1
                        27 January 2019 01: 30
                        Dear Rurikavich! The staging of the Amuram mine can is a collective fruit! Oddly enough, according to the documents, the order was received not only by the commander of the Amur but also by the commanders of the destroyers. And now none of them mentions something that everyone did at their own peril and risk. Without approval from the top, sometimes said privately not for the protocol, such an operation is simply not possible !!! I’ll say more about Vtigeft there are a lot of reviews from officers of the 1st TOE both from overtly negative and enthusiastic. Second, as if it did not seem strange to you anymore! Not deservedly shitty and forgotten admiral, but he didn’t climb to command the fleet, but he was an excellent organizer, which actually showed all the episodes of the REV associated with his command
                      4. +4
                        26 January 2019 18: 53
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Maybe you shouldn't take a position like "my book is the only correct one."

                        Andrey, yes you can, of course. There is an official Russian historiography, which interprets this issue absolutely unambiguously: the Amur commander placed mines against Witgeft's orders. And which, generally speaking, was compiled on the basis of many reports and documents - I must say that its detailed study led me to the opinion that this historiography is very detailed and accurate as much as it was possible for people not familiar with "Top Secret History "Japanese.
                        And there are idle reflections on the level "this was not, because this could never have been", not supported by anything other than wandering in the heavens.
                        Do you have evidence that Witgeft ordered to put the fence where it was actually delivered? If - yes, we ask you to show favors, if - no - why shake the air in vain?
                      5. +1
                        26 January 2019 19: 12
                        A colleague, as it were, about the Russian historiography of the RPE softer, there are many things that are surprising.
                        Frankly, I am not competent in the issue of setting up this minefields, since I have never dug it in detail. I supported VWWV in his next simple thought: to set up a minefield at my discretion is very fraught with a tribunal, so I need overconvincing proofs that this was so. For links to those I will be very grateful.
                        In the absence of SUPER convincing proofs (as they say, "one woman said" does not apply to such), I am not ready to consider this issue finally resolved, all the more I consider the categorical form of statements from the category "everything except my book is wrong" unacceptable.
                      6. +5
                        26 January 2019 20: 04
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        I supported VWWV in his next simple thought: to set up a minefield at my discretion is very fraught with a tribunal

                        Yes, it was not fraught with any tribunal :))) Our commanders managed not to follow the direct instructions of the flagship in the battle, and no one went to the tribunal for this (see the battle of January 27).
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        therefore we need SUPERCONFORCING proofs that it was so

                        No, it doesn’t work like that :))))) We have a clear position in official historiography, we have a report from Vitgeft to the Vice-President, where he says that he was going to send Cupid to put up a fence in 8 miles, and finally sent 9 miles from Arthur, finally we have data where mines were actually delivered.
                        That is, we have all the necessary evidence base. Well, if you do not consider her as such, then this, forgive your personal IMHO. You have the right to doubt anything, whoever argues, but only if you are trying to PUBLIC express your doubts, then be so kind as to confirm them with at least something. And to take the position of a "boyar in position" - like: "Bring me proofs, and I will think whether to trust them or not" - sorry, but this is such a childhood ...
                        In general, I strongly recommend that if you wish to discuss with decent people, please adhere to generally accepted rules of discussion. You are presented with an opinion with reference to the sources - either refute them with your "SUPER convincing" references, or admit your inability to refute them. And doubts can not be sewn to the case.
                      7. -1
                        26 January 2019 20: 23
                        I did not find the reports of Ivanov and Vitgeft on this score and asked you to share them, in fact, why be indignant?

                        I do not argue that:
                        "Certainly he supported (or perhaps even put forward) the idea of ​​an active mine setting, and helped F.N. Ivanov (at his request) to determine the route of passage of the Japanese detachments, but this is all that can be recorded in the asset of the Rear Admiral. "

                        I do not argue that:
                        "Let's imagine for a second that on the eve of May 2, the spirit of Admiral FF Ushakov would have entered KV Vitgeft - what could have happened in this case?" - Vitgeft missed the ONLY real chance in the whole war.

                        It seems that you are the author of the article on that topic, so why am I wrong when I ask for proofs. In my opinion, the disclosure of their primary data is the basis of the "generally accepted rules of discussion".
                      8. +1
                        27 January 2019 10: 39
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        It seems that you are the author of the article on that topic, so why am I wrong when I ask for proofs.

                        Yes, no question, This is "The Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905. Book II The actions of the fleet in the southern theater from the interruption of communications with Port Arthur to the sea battle on July 28 (August 10) in the Yellow Sea" page 32 and "" Russian-Japanese war of 1904-1905 Fleet actions Documents Division III 1st Pacific Squadron. Book one. Actions at the Southern Naval War Theater. Issue 4th Period of Squadron Command in Port Atur by Rear Admiral Wittgeft (22 April 28 July 1904) page 35.
                      9. +1
                        27 January 2019 11: 00
                        Thanks for that! hi

                        There are coordinates of the top of the Golden Mountain:
                        38°47'45"N 121°15'15"E
                        There are no exact coordinates of the input alignment, take approximate
                        38°47'30"N121°14'50"E

                        There are coordinates of the place of detonation:
                        38°36'22"N 121°16'56"E

                        With a flick of the arm, 10 miles are obtained ... 10 miles are obtained ... 10 miles are obtained
                        wassat
                      10. 0
                        27 January 2019 13: 57
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        With a flick of the arm, 10 miles are obtained ... 10 miles are obtained ... 10 miles are obtained

                        Andrey, what are you saying now? laughing
                      11. 0
                        27 January 2019 15: 59
                        I have NOT RECEIVED the miles indicated in the report 10,0 - 10,3 belay

                        I beg your pardon, today I "very much celebrate", but "the stone flower does not come out",
                        (note: the coordinates of the battery of the Electric Rock, here I am purely on the map with a ruler:
                        38°47'37"N 121°15'43"E)

                        To be honest, I always imagined the situation like this (Witgeft summoned Ivanov):
                        Q: "Saved you, brother, 50 minutes for active staging, but now put them on 75-80 cables from Electric Cliff."
                        And: "So after all, they, Wilhelm Karlovich, most of all like to walk for 100 cables, maybe there?"
                        Q: "So for 100 cables these are" dogs "The Electric Cliff is trolling, for fake they are for me, you, brother, put them on the battleships."
                        And: "So battleships also go there often, if we put them on 100 cables, we will definitely blow them up."
                        Q: "The shooting of the Golden Mountain showed that battleships approach it up to 65 cables, although rarely, this time. Analysis of combat damage shows that the newest battleships can withstand one or two mine hits, that's two. A thousand mines in order to be guaranteed to ensure three or four defeats in Port Arthur no, - that's three. Electric cliff on 100 cables cannot shoot, - that's 75. Conclusion: for guaranteed destruction of the enemy, it is necessary that he blown up at least one mine within the range of the battery of the Electric Cliff lost speed and was finished off by artillery. In general, brother, 80-XNUMX cables from Electric Cliff. "
                        ...
                        And: "Here is a map of the mine setting."
                        Q: "What are you doing? - I wanted a tribunal? WHERE will I find mines for you?"
                        And: “The rain was whipping, then tired .... There was fog, I could not find out ... clouds in the sky ... Well, I - I fulfilled my duty. The truth is, it was raining, fog, clouds were floating across the sky ... "

                        If you correct, write where to send "Clicquot" drinks
                      12. +1
                        28 January 2019 08: 27
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        I have NOT RECEIVED the miles indicated in the report 10,0 - 10,3

                        The coordinates of the blasting are EXAMPLE :)))) Or do you think that the Japanese, first of all, having blown up, rushed to establish absolutely exact coordinates? wassat And the coordinates of the shore you take approximate. And you want matches up to a meter? :))))
                      13. 0
                        28 January 2019 09: 13
                        Colleague, I'm afraid you are wrong:

                        1. If the Japanese would like to write "approximate coordinates", they would round up to minutes.
                        2. The coordinates of the blasting site are VERY IMPORTANT to the Japanese, they still have to swim there, so the minefield must be carefully scribbled.
                        3. Because you move the coordinates of the alignment for five seconds, - all the same "the stone flower does not come out".
                        4. No one has yet named other coordinates of the alignment and the site of the blasting.
                        5. Do not be jerky about the coincidence up to a meter, it is necessary to match at least "to the cable".
                        6.Your version is based on the fact that Witgeft is clinical and obviously decided to put the mines in the wrong place and for this he had no justification (therefore, presumed unreliable).
                        7. Can you imagine what would have been done to YOU ​​in the army for a report that "the mines I put up somewhere like 10 miles southeast, well, or a little further a little or a little", because the official history looks like a very crookedly drawn linden tree ...
                2. +1
                  26 January 2019 22: 22
                  At 8 o’clock in the morning at a distance of 10-12 miles from Arthur from the south appeared a detachment of five large Japanese ships. The battleships Shikishima, Hatsuse and Fuji (or Yashima) marched in the wake, having a class 3 cruiser of the Tatsuta type on the traverse, and a class 2 cruiser of the Chitose type was removed to the east.

                  Knowing the direction and distance of the mine can set on the eve of the day before, on my order, Cupid was ordered to follow the movement of the enemy from the Golden Mountain. I chose a place for a mine can after weekly observations of the movement of Japanese vessels, recorded every half hour according to reports from observation points on the shore {133}. Mines were delivered at a number of 50 from N to S, one mile to O from the entry line between 10 and 11 1/3 miles from Arthur. All mines were set at 11 feet. depths in low tide.
                  Rear Admiral (signature).

                  F. Naval Camp Headquarters of the Viceroy in the Far East, 42, pp. 17–20. Script.

                  PS This is a rap from the governor !!! By the way, even Ivanov in his report indicates the distance of 9-10 miles to such a distance, he received an order to place mines, but by no means if by the way if there was no direct order on what basis Ivanov afterwards sent reports on awarding both his officers and destroyer officers ?
                  sources
                  The Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905. " Fleet operations, Dep. III, book 1, no. 4, St. Petersburg, 1913, pp. 44–47.
            3. -1
              27 January 2019 11: 01
              Quote: kvs207
              land mines not where Vitgeft insisted

              Just noticed.
              You are confusing army relations along the line of chief-subordinate with the general meeting of the collective farm.
              Witgeft did not insist. He clearly and unequivocally ordered Ivanov to put so many such and such mines then and then in such and such places. Ivanov took a visor, answered Yes, turned around over his left shoulder and was like that. This is precisely what is called giving and receiving orders.
              And failure to fulfill or inaccurate execution of an order (for subjective reasons) is already a military crime. For this they give to the tribunal. With a sad ending.
              But Soviet writers were mostly civilians. Therefore, they wrote stories about the young man Ivanov a whole wagon. But in vain.
  4. +3
    26 January 2019 10: 20
    Thank you, dear colleague.
    In general, the whole war (and not only at sea) is full of missed opportunities. Very often, our commanders showed inexplicable indecision, bordering on cowardice.
    A question
    Ellio

    Uh ... Elliott Islands? Or just Elliot? I understand that the toponym in honor of George Elliot commander of the English fleet in the first Opium War.
    1. 0
      26 January 2019 17: 37
      The Elliott Islands :)
  5. +1
    26 January 2019 13: 17
    Intrigued by the first photo - as I understand it, this "Novik" is still in Europe. An hour, not Petrograd? If you don't look too closely, the building is similar to the late Union. And whose schnobel can be seen on the right in the photo? Not "Varyag" for an hour? what
    1. +1
      26 January 2019 16: 01
      I peered at the photo for a long time, but I can say with confidence that this is not Petersburg.
      1. 0
        26 January 2019 16: 07
        I myself have not been to St. Petersburg, but there were also doubts. But this is clearly Europe, most likely there was no such development in Asia at that time. Then, it turns out, Germany?
        1. 0
          26 January 2019 17: 07
          I live here and the Neva more or less studied)))
          Europe, no doubt.
  6. +2
    26 January 2019 13: 21
    Quote: vwwv20
    The surface fleet in Russia is generally a contraption purely for show-offs. Expensive, of course. But just a show off.

    As they say on the Internet - "transfer".
    That is, protecting the coast of the state, is it a show off?
  7. +3
    26 January 2019 13: 57
    The clerk of the "yellow press", the Viceroy, in all seriousness, assured the Port Arthur that the Japanese had no armadillos at all, and that what they saw was in fact camouflaged as commercial ships.
    1. 0
      26 January 2019 14: 57
      He assured, plus, but not the fact that he believed. I would believe it myself - as if I had raised my flag, and how would the fleet lead fellow
    2. +1
      26 January 2019 15: 04
      And where is this nonsense? Alekseev actually did not suffer from a fool. And he really assessed the situation, it was he who demanded the abolition of the armed reserve for the 1st TOE and the increase in troops for Quantum and funding even before the war
      1. +4
        26 January 2019 16: 11
        One of the officers of the 1 Pacific squadron told that the Port Arthur governor reproached him with cowardice, assuring that instead of armadillos they see steamships disguised as armadillos, Separately, he wrote how they in the wardroom were laughing at this "nonsense." Like, if only Alekseeva would come here, let her fight with the "ships".
        The memoirs were published shortly after the end of the Russian-Japanese one, there were plenty of live participants, so there was someone to convict in slander of the Viceroy.
      2. +1
        26 January 2019 18: 55
        Quote: Nehist
        And where is this nonsense?

        Have you read the telegram of the governor given on 10 of June? Witgeft received it after he met with the entire Yapov fleet
      3. +2
        27 January 2019 04: 46
        From here:
        “I am reporting the state of the Japanese fleet: drowned Hatsuse, Shikishima, Ioshino, Miyako; in the docks - “Fuji”, “Asama”, “Iwate”, “Yakumo”, “Azuma”, “Kassuga”; only Asahi, Mikasa, Tokiva, Izumi are operational (probably a typo, meaning the armored cruiser Izumo. - Comm. Aut.), Nissin. (Alekseev)
  8. +2
    26 January 2019 17: 47
    Article plus in the morning, there is nothing to complain about in the routine description ...
    The only thing that comes to mind is that, due to many circumstances, there was only one "Novik" in the PA (another "blow" to Sarychev), and being, to put it mildly, a feminine hygiene item with a tail in each hole, he worked to the point of wear and tear ... equipment loves timely care and maintenance, so as not to create problems for the people who use it ...
    Hello again - history does not know the subjunctive mood "ifbydakaba" - therefore, the Russians did not inflict even minor harm on the Japanese in the moments you described No. As it is, so it is request
    If the same “Peresvet” and “Victory” were assigned to the “Novik” distant cover, in addition to the cruiser squadron, and they were allowed to act decisively, then with high probability 22 June would have lost the Chin-Yen battleship, and a fair share of their insolence.

    S., A.N. hi
    1. +3
      26 January 2019 18: 54
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Hello again - history does not know the subjunctive mood "if bydakaba"

      History doesn’t know, but analytics is obliged to know :)
      1. 0
        26 January 2019 18: 58
        drinks
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        but analytics must know :)

        I would say not to KNOW, but to ASSUME what
        1. +1
          26 January 2019 19: 08
          Quote: Rurikovich
          I would say not to KNOW, but to ASSUME

          Andrey, you wrote to me
          Quote: Rurikovich
          history does not know the subjunctive mood

          I replied that analytics should know the recommended mood, but here’s how to ASSUME the subjunctive mood - a mystery to me laughing drinks
          1. +1
            26 January 2019 19: 51
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            but here's how to ASSUME the subjunctive mood - a mystery to me

            what ...
            Agree good Yes My head is now full of completely different thoughts, and answered in order to say hello, it came out from the point of view of logic archiidiotically wink drinks feel
            1. +1
              27 January 2019 15: 43
              Quote: Rurikovich
              My head is now full of completely different thoughts

              Yes, I understand, you didn’t mean it at all, I'm sorry, I could not resist a joke of humor :) hi
  9. 0
    26 January 2019 20: 07
    Certainly, the exit of the Russian detachment disrupted the artillery support of the advancing Japanese troops, and the ships that carried it out were driven off. Moreover, the Russian ships opened fire precisely when our ground units particularly needed it - with the 13.00 the Japanese stormed the key elevation of the position, Mount Huinsan, and the shelling that lasted from 13.45 to 15.00 was most welcome. But alas, the effectiveness of the Russian naval artillery was not enough - in 15.30, the mountain was still occupied by Japanese troops.

    I would like to note that all these shellings were carried out without any adjustment or even communication with the ground forces. They just shot in the direction where the Japanese were seen a week ago. It is difficult to call such an activity otherwise than imitation. Unfortunately.
  10. +2
    26 January 2019 21: 01
    "having the task of defeating the Japanese fleet" belay -the task of them was to quietly slip into Vladik and then they didn’t take it on their own will — the tsar was tired of demanding to stomp with his feet, and the army threatened to shoot if they didn’t leave laughing
  11. +6
    27 January 2019 03: 51
    Quote: Nehist
    Well, the commander of the Amur could not land mines without an order.

    Enlighten yourself.
    This is official, I emphasize official point of view of the Naval General Staff of the Russian imperial fleet.

    Well, see? Vitgeft’s order was violated by Ivanov 6.
    1. 0
      27 January 2019 16: 10
      Quote: Comrade
      This is the official, I emphasize, the official point of view of the Naval General Staff of the Russian Imperial Fleet.

      I think it's useless to explain what international law is. And what is its violation fraught with.
      It’s one thing the mines put where they were put, the stupid captain in her lack of knowledge and incompetence. And another thing, a competent and competent captain on the orders of his admiral.
      Quote: Comrade
      Well, see? Vitgeft’s order was violated by Ivanov 6.

      Judging by the report of Vitgeft to the Mercenary, no, not broken. Ivanov did everything exactly as Vitgeft ordered. It is internal document and trust him far more than empty chatter in some kind of uninteresting book edited by him, even if it’s a music school.
      1. +2
        27 January 2019 18: 01
        Quote: vwwv20
        Ivanov did everything exactly as Vitgeft ordered. This is an internal document.

        Let's get this mysterious here
        Quote: vwwv20
        document

        Yes, do not forget to add the coordinates of the points of detonation from the Jakar. Immediately, we compare where Vitgeft ordered the mines to be set, and where they actually turned out to be.
        Let’s, let’s just call yourself a load, so climb into the back.
        1. 0
          27 January 2019 20: 29
          Quote: Comrade
          Let’s, let’s just call yourself a load, so climb into the back.

          I tried to comment on your passage, but it stuck below and without a link. Do not consider it work, read what I wrote to you with one comment below.
    2. +1
      27 January 2019 20: 25
      Well, see? Vitgeft’s order was violated by Ivanov 6.


      The document is curious, but our Canadian friend for some reason, as usual, all the numbers are somehow "left".

      The maximum range of 12 "Mikasa (12" \ 40 Armstrong) is 82 kb at its max. 15 deg. elevations. Someone can explain why the Japanese battleships walk 11 miles from the Golden Mountain (110 kbl)? Waving flags and showing a naked Japanese ass or what? By the way, from the Golden Mountain to Port Arthur itself, there are still about 20 kbl ..

      In general, I'm sorry, but this is another tale of either our Canadian friend, or the eagles from MGS.
      1. 0
        27 January 2019 21: 29
        Quote: Saxahorse
        Someone can explain why Japanese armadillos walk 11 miles from Golden Mountain (110 kbl)

        What would not fall under the fire of coastal batteries?
        1. 0
          27 January 2019 21: 39
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          What would not fall under the fire of coastal batteries?

          Eeeee .. And what is the purpose? Such a hike? Show the Russians from afar is the most snow-white samurai valor? :)))

          Actually, evil tongues claim that Samurai fired at Port Arthur during these visits. What I am hinting at ... They couldn’t do this with 110 kbl.
          1. +1
            28 January 2019 10: 36
            Show Russian

            That the blockade is still here.
            Actually, evil tongues claim that Samurai fired at Port Arthur during these visits.

            This is not true. When the Japanese fired, they came much closer. Or they used the Kasuga, which has everything in order with its range.
            1. 0
              28 January 2019 23: 42
              Oddly enough, but you were right here :) The Japanese allocated a separate detachment for the shelling, and the main forces did indeed prank in front of Port Arthur beyond the range of the Russian batteries.
              1. +1
                29 January 2019 16: 38
                Quote: Saxahorse
                Surprisingly

                Well yes. you might think this for the first time :))))
      2. +2
        27 January 2019 23: 02
        Quote: Saxahorse
        Someone can explain why Japanese armadillos walk 11 miles from Golden Mountain (110 kbl)?

        This time we turn to Japanese officialdom.

        Why did the admiral of Togo need to establish a blockade of the coast of the Kwantung Peninsula, you can find out by reading the source kindly laid out by your humble servant.
        Quote: Saxahorse
        Evil tongues claim that Samurai fired at Port Arthur during these visits.

        Well, guess now where to put these very languages?
        Yes, so what about the true coordinates of the Japanese armadillo bombing points, deaf?
        1. +1
          28 January 2019 23: 40
          I take back my words about the "left" figures in this case. You are right, I read a little about how these attacks were carried out.

          The Japanese really fired at Port Arthur with 50-70 kbl, but apart from the first time, they allocated a separate detachment of two or three ships, which came from the rear of the Russians and fired at Port Arthur from behind, with cross-throw fire across the peninsula. And the main forces at this time of the campaign really pranced 10-11 miles in front of the port, luring the Russian fleet to fight.
          1. 0
            29 January 2019 18: 21
            The Japanese really fired at Port Arthur with 50-70 kbl, but apart from the first time, they allocated a separate detachment of two or three ships, which came from the rear of the Russians and fired at Port Arthur from behind, with cross-throw fire across the peninsula.

            Because there appeared additional tools over time. It’s good that all the data matched drinks
  12. +5
    27 January 2019 04: 23
    Quote: arturpraetor
    Intrigued by the first photo - as I understand it, this "Novik" is still in Europe. An hour, not Petrograd?

    This is Naples, where "Novik", on the way to the Far East, stood from 26 to 28 October 1902.
    Quote: arturpraetor
    And whose schnobel can be seen on the right in the photo? Not "Varyag" for an hour?

    Too many portholes, nose decoration is missing.

    There is a suspicion that this is a non-military ship.
    1. +1
      27 January 2019 12: 16
      It seems that you are completely right. Thank you for the information, dear colleague. hi
  13. +4
    27 January 2019 07: 33
    Quote: vwwv20
    I highly recommend carefully studying the issue of exactly where the mines were displayed. This is the most important thing in that story.

    Judging by your defiant and patronizing comments, you carefully studied the issue along and across. Therefore, it will not be difficult for you not only to lay out the coordinates of the points of undermining the Japanese battleships, but also refer to the corresponding Japanese documents from the Internet archive.
    And then there is so much talk about the death of Japanese battleships in different forums, they write so much in different sources, and no one puts the exact places of the bombing.
    So all hope for you, wait, sir!
    1. 0
      27 January 2019 08: 06
      There are specific coordinates in the Internet: 38 ° 36'22 "N 121 ° 16'56" E
      I did not find information on the Internet from WHERE to count 8 miles or 10,3 miles there, I asked Andrei from Chelyabinsk to share the reports of Ivanov and Vitgeft - he has not yet helped
      1. +2
        27 January 2019 17: 38
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        There are specific coordinates in the Internet: 38 ° 36'22 "N 121 ° 16'56" E

        These coordinates are on Wikipedia. Most likely, their origin dates back to the reports of English observers who indicated approximate coordinates.
        Accurate data on jakar, but our "expert" will not post them in any way.
        1. 0
          27 January 2019 18: 26
          Colleague, give me the exact data, otherwise I can't get the canonical "10 miles from alignment"
    2. 0
      27 January 2019 08: 20
      The coordinates of the top of the Golden Mountain
      38°47'45"N 121°15'15"E
  14. +2
    27 January 2019 15: 25
    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    The same Makarov, IMHO, went to sea, so that the Japanese could not even think of landing a landing near Port Arthur, and no more

    Bingo!
    And now we remember how the branch began
    And simple activity at Port Arthur could solve this problem, because in this case the Japanese would have to land troops not in Chinese ports, but in Korean (Roughly, not in the Far, but in Chemulpo), which would complicate logistics at once. For everything was not very good with the roads in Korea.

    on that coast, in general, there were no convenient ports except Dalniy, and it was just in reach. That is, simple activity sharply increased the transport shoulder of the enemy.
    In general, in this situation, there are two ways to achieve superiority in strength.
    1) expedite the delivery of their reinforcements. But here Witgeft could neither help nor interfere.
    2) stop the Japanese from delivering their reinforcements. Do not interrupt - no. There are no miracles. Just get in the way! And then he just could, at least try.
    1. 0
      27 January 2019 16: 08
      Before the war, the Japanese command had planned a landing on the eastern shore of the Liaodong Peninsula near the town of Bizzyvo, about 120 miles from Port Arthur. The Japanese had already landed at Bizzyvo during the war with the Chinese. - quite a convenient place for the Russians. Logistics disgusting and assault on the forehead of the three-verst isthmus at Kinzhou. Although Makarov, even Wittgeft - but still landing at Bizzyvo
      1. +2
        27 January 2019 16: 26
        But what’s interesting is that while Makarov was alive, no landing by Bydzevo (different spelling everywhere) happened. And the point is not even in Makarov himself, but in the fact that under him the squadron regularly went to sea, thus creating a danger, albeit in many ways hypothetical. And as soon as they locked themselves in the internal raid, here you are.
        Moreover, the weather was a fairy tale! (for the defenders) Storm, horseradish visibility, I don’t want to attack, even from the sea by destroyers and cruisers, even from land, the first echelon was left without support. (what did you dream about landing at the beginning of the war?)
        And you say three extra bodies ...
        1. 0
          27 January 2019 16: 31
          while Makarov was alive, no landing by Bydzevo (different spelling everywhere) happened - just like when Stark commanded - no landing by Bydzevo (different spelling everywhere) wassat
          maybe it’s not the admiral, but the Japanese deployment plans?
  15. +2
    27 January 2019 16: 43
    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    maybe it’s not the admiral, but the Japanese deployment plans?

    the point is your inability to read. Key phrase - "the fleet went to sea"
    1. 0
      27 January 2019 16: 59
      well, or someone does not know that at that time in Port Arthur there were only TWO combat-ready battleship "Poltava" and "Peresvet" battleship "Sevastopol" due to damage on a mine could not give more than 11 knots
      1. 0
        27 January 2019 17: 41
        If you are talking about the landing at Bydzevo, then there were five cruisers, destroyers and bad weather.
        And if we are still discussing the article, then:
        But in order to realize this option, it was necessary to put into the sea, in addition to the detachment of cruisers and all combat-ready destroyers, “Relight” or “Victory”, and better, both of these ships at once.

        have not mastered or have already forgotten?
        1. +1
          27 January 2019 17: 47
          And why should the ships be listed? -If there would be a couple of machine guns or 3 inches at the landing site-the Yellow Sea would turn red. tongue
          1. 0
            27 January 2019 17: 57
            Not so far from the landing site was a whole division of Fock with artillery.
            1. +2
              27 January 2019 18: 00
              It was she who stood and looked, and the landing itself (read under what conditions) went without a single shot.
              1. +1
                27 January 2019 18: 23
                but they drive everything to Witgeft, and I want to quote:
                "Combat troops with experienced generals are retreating without inflicting defeat, why is it that from me, completely unprepared, with a weakened squadron, thirteen-node course, without destroyers, is expected to destroy the strongest, well-trained, seventeen-node combat fleet of the enemy ..."
                Once again, thanks to Andrey from Chelyabinsk, for the fact that the mass of necessary quotes is always at hand good
                1. 0
                  27 January 2019 18: 48
                  Poor and untrained Witgeft laughing -I would take care of what I’m prepared for, well, there to wash or deck the deck in the galley laughing
                  1. 0
                    27 January 2019 18: 58
                    well, at least against the background of Kuropatkin, he is far from the worst character in this story, well, he was not Ushakov, he was not lucky, but Fock was not either
                    1. 0
                      27 January 2019 19: 02
                      Unlucky to become Ushakov? laughing “Not the worst?” “Maybe just a miserable, worthless little man.”
                      1. +5
                        27 January 2019 21: 33
                        But you are in vain. Wilhelm Karlovich died on the bridge of his flagship, leading the squadron into battle. And over the grave of a fallen warrior it is supposed to be silent and no one can say that Admiral Witgeft did not deserve this honor.
                        (quote stole yourself you know from whom)
                      2. -2
                        27 January 2019 22: 17
                        Well, as a man, Witgeft was not bad, quiet and harmless, but the admiral made a bullet out of him like shit, and complained to almost the sailors - "which commander is I?", "And who decided to appoint me?" - and did not die " leading the squadron into battle "and sitting on the bridge of the flagship BR without leading anything, like a cockroach behind the stove, including. "fallen warrior" is not about him.
                      3. +1
                        27 January 2019 22: 49
                        Just then Witgeft with his maneuvers and beat Togo in a battle in the yellow sea. If under Tsushima the Japanese imposed their battle rules on Rozhestvensky, then this did not work with Witgeft. It was the Japanese who had to adapt to the Russians. Well, the fact that Witgeft, as you say, is done on the bridge ... But what else was left for him? He violated the order to break through without getting involved in a fight, got into a fight. In the event of a breakthrough with inevitable losses, a tribunal was waiting for him.
                      4. +2
                        27 January 2019 23: 07
                        You understand what kind of nonsense you are writing? - "He violated the order to break through without getting involved in a battle" - your order? - and how could he not get involved in a battle? - to go by land? "In the event of a breakthrough with inevitable losses, a tribunal awaited him" ?? - what is in your head if you write this?
                      5. 0
                        28 January 2019 00: 22
                        Well, carefully study the material., Having filled up all the supplies ... ensuring a safe exit and choosing a favorable moment, go out to sea with the squadron and, if possible, avoiding the battle, follow to Vladivostok. Whose order is it? Yes, you apparently do not own the material at all. It was the highest command of EIV Nicholas II. Go check the part to begin with so that you don’t write more nonsense
                      6. +1
                        28 January 2019 10: 40
                        All I can advise is to study the course of the battle in the Yellow Sea. At least on the articles of Andrei’s colleague from Chelyabinsk. There, maneuvers were also dismantled.