Armored lightning. Cruiser II rank Novik. Design features

133
Apparently, the tender for the design of the 2 high-speed armored cruiser of the X rank was announced in early April 1898. At April 10, the attorney of the German shipbuilding company Howaldtswerke AG was assigned to design the 25 hub cruiser, and a day later - "30-node". And April 28 (in the previous article, alas, 10 April was mistakenly stated) was answered, apparently putting an end to the idea of ​​the "30-nodal" cruiser.

Representatives of the German company reported that in order for a cruiser in 3 000 t to develop 25 units, it would need machines with a combined power of 18 000 hp. But in order to reach 30 nodes, this power should be brought to 25 000 hp, while the power plant with a machine of such power will have 1 900 - 2 000 tons weight and it turns out that all the other elements of the ship: , weapon, fuel supplies, etc. only a thousand tons or a little more will remain. It is obvious that in such a displacement reserve it would be impossible to create a warship of any acceptable quality. These considerations were very convincing, and Vice-Admiral I.M. Dikov accompanied the German calculations with a note: “I believe that the 25-node motion is sufficient. It is hardly possible to demand more. ”



Interestingly, in this matter the Germans, perhaps, slightly exaggerated paint. The fact is that the actual mass of the power plant "Novik" nominal power 17 000 hp amounted to about 800 t, thus, it can be assumed that 25 000 hp could be provided by bringing the mass of the power unit to 1 150 - 1 200 t, and not 1 900 - 2 000 t. However, it should be noted that this value is not acceptable for the cruiser 3 000 t. is acceptable armed and protected ship so that it does not break on the first wave.

It must be said that nine shipbuilding enterprises responded to the competition, including:

1) German - the above mentioned Howaldtswerke AG (Kiel), F. Schichau GmbH and Fríedrich Krupp AG;

2) English: London and Glasgow Engineering and Iron Shipbuilding Company and Laird, Son & Co (Birkenhead);

3) Italian - Gio. Ansaldo & C .;

4) French - SA des Chantiers el Ateliers de la Gironde (Bordeaux);

5) Danish company Burmeister og Vein,

6) Russian - Nevsky Shipyard with technical assistance of British firms.

However, it should be taken into account that three companies - the British Laird, the French and the Danish - arrived only in January-February of 1899, when the competition was already held, the winner was selected, and a contract was signed with it. Therefore, the ITC familiarized with the proposals of the British and French unless it was only out of general interest, the firms were informed that new orders for ships of this type were not yet planned. As for the proposal of the Danish "Burmeister and Van", big politics intervened here, which is why the case ended with the order of the Boyarin cruiser. But we will return to these events later.

Thus, six applicants submitted their projects to the competition on time: unfortunately, many details remain unknown today. So, for example, historians have not yet been able to find any materials on the British project, and the conclusion that the documentation provided by the British did not at all meet the competitive requirements, is made on the basis that the documents were returned to the British after just 9 days after they were submitted. As far as you can understand, the displacement in 3 000 t was still “cramped” for designers - the project presented by Nevsky Shipbuilding had a displacement of 3 200 t, the German Hovaldtstverka 3 202 t. The strongest armor was the proposal of the Russian plant - the thickness of the armored deck was 30 mm in the horizontal part and on the bevels in the bow and stern, and 80 mm - on the bevel in the areas of machine and boiler rooms. The Italian project was distinguished by its “extreme-thick” among the presented projects of the conning tower - the wall thickness was 125 mm. Well, the most original, perhaps, was one of the options presented by Hovaldtsvorka - while the projects submitted to the competition used the bulk of the "miner" Yarrow boilers (and Thornicroft itself), Belleville. In this case, the cruiser received a slightly larger width compared to the cruiser using Thornicroft boilers, and a greater displacement by 100 tons, but it was assumed that the ship would reach 25 nodes. Obviously, the calculation was based on the fact that the Russian MTC, “in love” with the Belleville boilers, cannot resist such a proposal. But this time, even Belleville did not work: the competition was won by "Shihau", with which 5 August 1898 was signed a contract, under the terms of which the company pledged to submit the cruiser to the tests after 25 months after signing the contract.

Consider what they did.

Displacement


"Novik" on the stocks


It must be said that the German designers were faced with the most difficult task: the creation of an 25 cruiser in the 3 000 tonnage, and it is very likely that they themselves were not completely sure about the successful solution. Therefore, the course was taken not only for the strictest discipline of weight, in order to avoid any overload, but also for the constructive relief of the cruiser to the fullest extent so that, according to the project, to provide him with a displacement of less than the contractual value of 3 000 t. , at least, strange decisions: but blaming the Germans for this alone would be wrong, since the MTC seemed to hold the same positions and only rejoiced at the utmost relief of the ship. The fact is that, despite the conclusion of the contract at the beginning of August 1898, the coordination of the cruiser’s drawings was delayed simply ugly - in fact, the construction of the ship began almost a year and a half after the conclusion of the contract - in December 1899! True, this delay was influenced not only by the slowness of the MTC, but also by the delay of steel mills in the supply of metal, but there is no doubt that the MTC played the main role in the delay.

Looking ahead, if we count from the start of work, the cruiser was built very quickly - 2 May 1901, the ship was already completely ready and went to factory tests, while less than a year and five months passed since the start of construction. A similar period for the Varyag under construction in the USA was approximately 2 of the year - the exact date of commencement of work on this cruiser is unknown, but presumably this is August 1898, and for the first time at sea the cruiser came out 9 July 1900. But comparing the construction time of the Varyag and “Novika” should not be forgotten that “Varyag” was still more than twice as large as the brainchild of “Shihau”. If we take for comparison domestic shipyards, then from the start of construction of the almost same-type Novik cruiser Zhemchug to the first launch of the cruiser into the sea for factory tests, 3,5 of the year passed (19 February 1901 of August - 5 August 1904) ).


"Novik" on the stocks


When Novik entered its first tests, its normal displacement was almost 300 tons lower than the contract stipulated. Oddly enough, its exact value is unknown, because the data of Russian-speaking sources have small discrepancies. So, for example, according to A. Emelin, the normal displacement was 2 719,125 t, but does not specify which tons are in question, metric or “long” English, having 1 016,04 kg. But in the monograph by V.V. Khromov states that such a number consisted of 2 721 “long” ton, that is, in the metric tons the displacement of the “Novik” is 2 764,645 t. But in any case, this is significantly less than indicated in the contract.

Chassis


Novik in completion


From the point of view of structural strength, perhaps, we can say that the Germans managed to literally walk along the edge, easing the hull of the ship as much as possible without sacrificing its navigable qualities, and perhaps even stepping over this edge. In the subsequent ships of the series, built on the model of Novik in domestic shipyards, the hull was deemed necessary to reinforce - on the other hand, Novik quite confidently withstood the storms, and the transition to the Far East, and military operations against the Japanese without much criticism.

Typically, the claim to the project put the lack of a double bottom, brought to the level of the lower bevels of the armor deck for most of the hull. As an illustration, see the cross section of the Bogatyr armored cruiser



And "Novika"



On the one hand, the claim is certainly fair - Novik’s double bottom really rose to the level of the armor deck only in the extremities. But on the other hand, it is necessary to take into account the limitations of this form of protection - in fact, a double bottom protects only against a leak in the casing and grounding, and the second only if the external casing has been damaged only. As for combat damage, a double bottom against them is almost useless. In addition, the presence of a double bottom provides somewhat greater body strength. But, as we know, the strength of the Novik’s hull did turn out to be acceptable, and as for navigation accidents, a lot depends on the combat use areas of the ship. For example, in the Baltic it is extremely important, but in the Pacific the same American destroyers, although they did not have a double bottom, but did not suffer much from it. We can also recall the British experience - after the First World War, they preferred to build their destroyers without a double bottom, which allowed them to "squeeze" into narrow hulls of the car and boilers of maximum power, while the safety of ships was ensured by numerous watertight bulkheads. It was on this principle that the Novik was designed - it had 17-s waterproof bulkheads from the bottom to the armor deck, and the 9-th - above the armor deck! The cruiser "Bogatyr", for example, had 16 watertight bulkheads, of which three continued above the armor deck. Thus, despite the absence of a continuous double bottom, the Novik was nevertheless a very resistant ship to flooding.

But on the other important flaw of the Novik corps, unfortunately, often do not pay attention. Of course, no one has the right to reproach the German designers that their offspring had a long and narrow body, the ratio of length to width of which was very large. Thus, for Bogatyr, with a maximum length of 132,02 m and a width of 16,61 m, it was 7,95, and for Novik, with a maximum length of about 111 m (106 m, indicated in the sources, it is the length between perpendiculars) - almost 9,1. Without a doubt, a similar ratio was absolutely necessary to achieve extremely high for the time speed of 25 nodes. However, it also predetermined one of the most significant drawbacks of the ship - a strong side roll, which made the Novik a very unstable artillery platform. At the same time, this disadvantage could have been somewhat offset by the installation of lateral carinae, but those could adversely affect speed, and, apparently, this is why Novik did not receive them. BUT. von Essen, having already taken command of the cruiser, wrote in a report about such keels:

“Who, although probably would have affected the cruiser’s speed, would at the same time give it stability necessary for artillery firing.”


As for Novik’s seaworthiness, it is not easy to give an unambiguous assessment. On the one hand, it would be difficult to expect a lot from a small ship built for the sake of speed. And indeed, when in the winter Mediterranean “Novik” landed in a storm, then with a passing wave the ship strongly “felled” - the roll reached 25 degrees, while the frequency of the sweeps reached 13-14 per minute. However, when the cruiser turned around and went against the waves, then, according to N.O. von Essen: “he was doing fine, not taking water at all with his nose, and experiencing a comparatively slight roll”.

Power plant


"Novik" on running trials


In order for the cruiser to develop 25 units, three four-cylinder steam engines with rated power 17 000 hp were placed on it. and 12 water tube boilers manufactured by the Schihau company (in fact, slightly upgraded Thornicroft boilers). In this case, in the direction from the bow to the stern, first two boiler rooms were located, then the engine room, with two machines, the third boiler room and behind it the second machine room (with one machine). This arrangement virtually eliminated the possibility of failure of all vehicles as a result of a single combat damage, and gave Novik its easily recognizable silhouette (the third pipe is separated from the second and third).

I must say that the Schihaw boilers of our specialists left an ambivalent impression. On the one hand, their merits were noted, but on the other hand, disadvantages were also noted. So, access to the lower ends of the hot-water pipes was pretty difficult, and the pipes themselves had a greater curvature, contributing to the formation and accumulation of scale. As a result of the MTC, during the construction of “Pearls” and “Emerald”, it chose to return to the more familiar Yarrow boilers. As far as this was a well-grounded decision, we will consider later when we analyze the results of Novik’s combat service.

In the meantime, let's say that the cruiser is on the acceptance tests, with the power of the 17 789 HP machines. at 163,7 rpm, on five runs, developed the speed of 25,08 knots. This did not meet the contractual requirement to hold the 25 hub for the 6 hour run, so one can say that the German company, despite the full relief of the ship, could not fulfill the contract requirements. But, in any case, at that time, the Novik was unambiguously the fastest cruiser in its entirety. history ships of this class - no cruiser of the world has never developed a similar speed.

However, already on the test revealed an unpleasant defect of the ship - due to errors in weight calculations, "Novik" had a fairly pronounced trim on the nose. At the time of this test, the Germans managed to “trim” - the ship did not have a trim on the bow, but on the stern: the draft was 4,65 m, and the stern was 4,75 m. However, during the daily service in Port Arthur, these figures were different, reaching 5,3 and 4,95 m, respectively, that is, the trim on the nose was up to 35 cm (at the transition to the Far East it was less - somewhere about 20 cm). Sources claim that such a difference caused a strong drop in speed - in Port Arthur, 23 on April 1903, the cruiser at 160 rpm was able to develop only 23,6 knots.

However, here, most likely, the question is not so much in the trim as in the operational overload of the ship - after all, the ship, it turns out, sat on 65 cm, and stern - on 25 cm deeper than in tests, when the cruiser was provided with its normal displacement. The fact is that during the tests that took place on 5 on July 1901, when Novik was not overloaded, he developed 24,38-24,82 ties during two miles of 15,5 miles, while further it turned out that the distance was incorrectly measured , and in fact the cruiser had a great speed - it probably exceeded 25 nodes. It was noted that during the race the cruiser was strongly sitting nose. Unfortunately, the author does not have data on either the ship’s displacement during these trials, nor information about the size of the trim, but, in all likelihood, in this case, the latter did not affect the cruiser’s speed.

I must say that the ability of the ship to develop 23,6 bonds. in Port Arthur is a quite decent indicator - usually ships in daily operation are still unable to show the test speed when tested, losing to the node 1-2. Let us recall “Askold”, which, having shown on tests the speed of more than 24 knots, in the same Arthur confidently kept only the 22,5 node.

As we have said, the normal supply of coal was 360 tons, full - 509 tons, while the contract provided for a range in 5 000 miles on 10 nodes. Alas, in fact it turned out to be much more modest and made only 3 200 t at the same speed. The reason, oddly enough, lay in the three-shaft power plant, the use of which on the battleships of the Peresvet type turned the latter into "coal-eaters." But if at Peresveta, planning to go with the economic move on the middle car, they didn’t think at all of the resistance that two non-rotating screws of three would provide, then at Novik it was supposed to go with the economic move under the two extreme machines. However, the principle of the problem remained the same - the middle screw created a lot of resistance, which made it necessary to drive the third car anyway, even at low speeds. The only difference, perhaps, was that, for Peresvetov, the necessity of a mechanical transmission is usually indicated, with which an average car could drive not only its own, but also neighboring screws, while for Novik, apparently, only the uncoupling mechanism of the screw with the machine.

Reservation

The basis of the armor protection "Novika" was "karapasnaya" armored deck of a very decent thickness. In the horizontal part, it had 30 mm (20 mm of armor on 10 mm steel bedding) and bevels of 50 mm (35 mm of armor on 15 mm steel). In the middle of the hull, the horizontal part was located in 0,6 m above the waterline, the lower edge of the bevels adjoined the board at 1,25 m below the waterline. At a distance of 29,5 m from the ship's stem, the horizontal part gradually lowered to 2,1 m below the waterline directly at the stem. At the stern, the deck also made a “dive”, but not so “deep” - the decline began in 25,5 m from the stern stem in contact with the last one in 0,6 m below the waterline. I must say that the cruiser steam engines were too massive and did not fit under the armored deck. Therefore, the cylinders protruding above it had additional protection in the form of vertical windings 70 mm thick.



Directly above the bevels were coal pits, creating additional protection. Thus, the only thing that distinguished the Novik for the worse from other, larger domestic armored cruisers was the lack of a cofferdam at the waterline level. The latter, although it was not able, of course, to somehow protect it from a direct hit by an enemy projectile, could still significantly reduce leaks arising from close gaps.

The rest of the ship’s armor protection was extremely limited - the 30 mm armor defended the cabin, there was still a pipe of the same thickness as the control wires (including the power steering) went under the armor deck. In addition, 120-mm and 47-mm guns had armored seats. On the one hand, of course, such protection was very far from ideal, because it defended little calculation from fragments, unless the enemy projectile exploded in front of the weapon - similar in area shields of the Askold armored cruiser received very critical reviews that participated in it in combat 28 July 1904 officers. But, on the other hand, such shields were noticeably better than nothing, and one can only regret that the nose gun shield covered the view from the conning tower to such an extent that it had to be removed.

In general, the following can be said about the Novik's armor protection. Abstracting from the depravity of the armored deck scheme (especially since on a high-speed ship less than 3 000 t with a displacement to provide vertical booking of the board was not possible), it should be noted that on our cruiser it was very good. The thickness of the armor deck was quite capable of providing protection from 152-mm projectiles at a distance of approximately from 20 cables and further, and in this respect was not much less than twice the size of the armored cruisers than Novik. But, of course, the 30 mm of the conning tower and the tubes with the drives looked clearly inadequate, at least 50 mm would be necessary here, and 70 mm armor would be better, and it cannot be said that its use would lead to any fatal overload. Another disadvantage of the Novik reservation scheme was the lack of armored chimney protection, at least to the level of the upper deck.

Artillery


Aft 120-mm / 45 cannon cruiser "Novik"


The “main caliber” of the Novik armored cruiser is represented by six Kane guns 120-mm / 45. Oddly enough, the information about these tools is very fragmentary and contradictory. It is reliably known that the projectile of this gun (the old model) weighed 20,47 kg, and the gun had unitary loading (that is, the "cartridge" from the projectile and charge was charged immediately). The KNE 152-mm / 45 gun initially also had unitary loading, but it was almost immediately transferred to a separate one (the projectile and the case were charged separately), which was quite justified by the large weight of the projectile. At the same time, the weight of the 120-mm / 45 gun shot apparently did not exceed 30 kg (according to Shirokorad the case weight was 8,8 kg, respectively, the weight of the shot - 29,27 kg), that is, the 120-mm shot turned out to be even lighter than the lightweight projectile 152-mm / 45 Kane cannon, which had a mass 41,4 kg.

Judging by the available data, high-explosive and armor-piercing shells 120-mm / 45 guns had the same weight, but it also relied on cast-iron and segment shells, the mass of which, unfortunately, is not known to the author. Also, alas, the content of the explosive in the projectiles is also unknown.

The initial velocity of the 20,47 kg of the projectile was 823 m / s, but here the firing range is one more puzzle. So, A. Emelin, in his monograph on the Novik cruiser, cites data that the maximum angle of elevation of Novik's guns was 15 degrees, while the range of 120-mm / 45 guns reached 48 KBT. However, according to other sources, the maximum angle of elevation of this weapon was 18 degrees, while the “old” projectile firing range was 10 065 m or more 54 kbt. The scheme of the deck 120-mm / 45 Kanet gun, cited by A. Emelin in the monograph mentioned earlier, finally confuses the matter, because according to it the maximum angle of elevation of this gun is 20 degrees.



Thus, the only thing that can be argued for sure is that 120-mm / 45 was losing in firing range of six-inch Kane, but it is rather difficult to say how much.

Naturally, the 120-mm / 45 gun was inferior to a six-inch by the power of the projectile - more than doubled, but the weight of the deck “hundred-five” was almost twice as low as the 152-mm / 45 gun (relative to 7,5 and versus 14,5). But in the rate of fire and the ability to maintain an intensive rate of fire for a long time 120-mm / 45 apparently exceeded 152-mm / 45 - simply because of unitary, rather than separate loading and lower projectile weight and charge.

The standard 120-mm / 45 ammunition for the guns of the Novik cruiser is unknown, but, taking into account the information provided by N.O. von Essen about the stockpiles of a cruiser before going to the Far East, it can be assumed that the gun ammunition consisted of 175-180 shots, of which 50 were high-explosive, and the rest (approximately in equal proportions) armor-piercing, cast-iron and segment.

In addition to the 120-mm / 45 guns, the cruiser contained six more 47-mm cannons and two single-barrel 37-mm artillery systems (on the wings of the stern bridge) and two 7,62-mm machine guns on Mars. In addition, the cruiser was, of course, the 63,5-mm Baranovsky paratrooper cannon, which could be placed on barbecue, and 37-mm guns (apparently two) for arming the steamboats. All this artillery, with the possible exception of the landing gun, was of practically no significance and we will not consider it in detail.

To measure the distance of the ship, the Mirometers of Lyuzhol-Myakishev regularly relied, but in Port Arthur the Novik received the Barr and Stroude range finder.

In the prewar years, domestic armored cruisers were equipped with a centralized fire control system. The latter was a rather complex electrified system consisting of giving and receiving dials, which allowed to transfer a bearing to the target from a conning tower, a type of projectile to be used on it, short fire, attack, shot, as well as distance to the goal. Unfortunately, nothing of the kind at Novik was installed - it was supposed to carry out fire control using “old-fashioned” methods - sending orderlies, drumming, and commanding the nose-gun was supposed to be directly from the conning tower.

As we said above, due to the design features aimed at achieving a record speed, the Novik was not a stable artillery platform. Lieutenant A.P. Shter, performing the duties of an artillery officer of the cruiser, indicated in the report:

“In view of the fact that the cruiser is easily subjected to a strong side roll in its design, shooting from it is very difficult and cannot be labeled without sufficient practice ... ... Therefore, it is desirable to give an opportunity to practice auxiliary barrel shooting (probably, this is about barrel shooting - auth.) under all circumstances of the weather in excess of the set number of firing and, if possible, on counter-tracks and on a big run. ”


We also note that N.O. von Essen was with his. artillery officer was quite agree.

Mine armament


Scheme of the bow pair of mines "Novik"


According to the original design, the cruiser had to have 6 * 381-mm torpedo tubes with 2 ammunition in Whitehead mines per unit, two missile-mine apparatus for steam boats, as well as 25 anchor mines. However, in the process of coordination and construction, it has undergone a fair reduction. So, due to the extreme narrowness of the compartments at the stem, it was decided to abandon the installation of the bow torpedo tube, so that, in the end, there were five of them. All of them were above-water, while the bow pair was located in the hull 1,65 m height from the waterline at the ship’s bow in the ship’s nose (on the side projection of the ship, lancesports are visible under the barrel of the nose 120-mm gun). The second pair of mine apparatuses was located closer to the stern, in the region of the third chimney just below, in 1,5 m from the waterline. Both pairs of "pipes" were placed on hinges, were mobile, and could be induced: nasal on 65 degrees. in the nose and 5 hail. in feed, feed - on 45 hail. in the nose and 35 hail. in the stern (from traverse). The fifth torpedo tube was fixed and located in the stern of the ship.

From the placement of mine barriers and mine apparatus for steam boats eventually refused. The Novik steamboats were too tiny to be able to make up a mine raft, and without this the storage of mines on it did not make much sense. Therefore, their number was first reduced to 15, and then they were abandoned altogether, and the mine apparatus of the boats were removed at the same time.

In general, the mine equipment of Novik is difficult to recognize as satisfactory. The 381-mm mine project from the Lessner plant of the 1898 sample had a relatively small explosive charge - 64 kg, but, most importantly, regrettably small range - 600 m with a speed of 30 knots. or 900 m with a speed of 25 knots. Thus, in order to get into someone, the cruiser needed to go very close, at a distance less than 5 cable - of course, in a combat situation it was hardly possible. But the placement of these torpedoes above the armor deck, without any protection in battle could lead to a catastrophe.

To be continued ...
133 comments
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  1. +3
    8 December 2018 07: 30
    The caravans of that era are steel and cast iron lace, there is no welding yet, riveting and rolling. Steam pipelines are just a masterpiece.
    1. +1
      9 December 2018 07: 52
      All the same, there were cofferdams - they can be clearly seen in the pictures in the post.
      The 120-mm unitar weighed 35,8 kg, and not less than 30 kg, as it is written in the article.
    2. 0
      15 December 2018 20: 11
      Bronze stems and rudders still forgot to mention. :-)
      And millions of rivets ....
  2. 0
    8 December 2018 09: 42

    This photo is titled "1905. The gun of the cruiser" Novik "defending Korsakov." Was this weapon installed by the Russians or the Japanese?
    1. +2
      8 December 2018 10: 16

      Russians. Your photo after the Japanese capture the Korsakov post. But before the capture
    2. 0
      8 December 2018 20: 16
      Russians definitely
    3. +1
      15 December 2018 20: 15
      And more than one gun - "from the cruiser Novik, sunk in August 1904 at the Korsakov post, it was possible to remove and install two 120-mm guns and 2 47-mm Hotchkiss guns as stationary coastal guns."
      There are photos of both of them, besides there were towed systems on the island.
  3. +7
    8 December 2018 09: 57
    Dear Andrey !!! On shells can be a little more detailed ?! Do you mean OF cast-iron bombs or segmented ones? The fact is that in reference books cast-iron segmented shells are one thing and cast-iron bombs (which in fact is an HE shell) are different. In principle, the other day I’ll run to the museum and look at the Novik ship’s magazine! Then I will tell you exactly how many and what shells were at the time of the breakthrough. Perhaps I dig up something else interesting.
    Respectfully!!! hi
    1. +1
      8 December 2018 20: 17
      hello far east
    2. +1
      8 December 2018 20: 18
      Quote: Nehist
      In principle, the other day I’ll run to the museum and look at the Novik ship’s magazine!

      Take a picture of him! Very interesting to everyone!
      1. +2
        9 December 2018 00: 46
        By the way, the ship’s magazine is on the museum’s website and you can see it here.
        1. 0
          9 December 2018 23: 06
          Quote: Nehist
          By the way, the ship’s magazine is on the museum’s website and you can see it here.

          Museum site address do not tell me?
          1. 0
            10 December 2018 00: 24
            http://sakhalinmuseum.ru
  4. +3
    8 December 2018 10: 23
    Let's not forget (I will repeat myself for a mile) that any ship is a collection of compromises (especially of a small displacement, when each ton has a weight). Therefore, based on the solution of the complex problem of finding the optimal solution when distributing the weight load, one has to sacrifice some qualities for the sake of others. For me, it was possible not to put 47mm "pukalki" at all, as well as torpedo armament, put the released weight on the same side keels and increase the main battery ammunition.
    But we can now say it after the fact
    But there is one beautiful expression, "He who does not forgive a woman for her small shortcomings will never enjoy her great virtues."
    The same can be said about Novik. Its shortcomings in the form of a trim on the nose, side rolling, unnecessary weight in the form of useless weapons were the result of the struggle for merit (speed) and the ossified thinking of 19th century admirals in terms of the effectiveness of small-caliber weapons.
    Therefore, "Novik turned out to be as far as possible to cram the required metal into the framework of 3000 tons.
    We will continue to see how the Russians took advantage of this floating compromise. smile
    Article plus hi
    1. +3
      8 December 2018 10: 27
      I agree! But all the same, the pebbles had more powerful weapons. The newcomer could easily carry a couple more 120mm instead of useless trifles without sacrificing speed
      1. +1
        8 December 2018 16: 15
        Quote: Nehist
        But all the same, the pebbles had more powerful weapons. Novik no problem[i] [/ i] could carry a couple more 120mm instead of useless little things without sacrificing speed

        ========
        That's the whole trick, Alexander, that I COULD NOT !!! On the "pebbles", as you call "Pearls" and "Emerald" (by the way - pearl is not a "stone" or a mineral, in general!), To install an additional pair of 120-k - I had to increase case width (which incidentally had a negative effect on speed) ... hi
        1. +3
          8 December 2018 16: 55
          Colleague, EMNIP "pebbles" is the nickname "Pearls" and "Emerald" in the second squadron.
          1. 0
            8 December 2018 21: 17
            drinks
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            Colleague, EMNIP "pebbles" is the nickname "Pearls" and "Emerald" in the second squadron.

            ========
            So, and who argues ????
        2. 0
          9 December 2018 19: 01
          to install an additional pair of 120-k - had to increase the width of the case

          Are you sure? It seems that the theoretical drawing was the same and the width - 12,2 m for both "Novik" and "pebbles", just the latter have more draft due to overload.
        3. 0
          10 December 2018 11: 28
          Normally, you can install. There, in the World of Warships they pushed another pair and nothing, 25 knots gives out from the bush.)))
    2. +1
      8 December 2018 11: 20
      Well, with 47mm guns it's not that simple. There are a lot of tasks for which the power of the 4.7 "gun is excessive.
      Like that: saluting (a thing absolutely obligatory), shooting small targets (the same mine boats), warning shots. All the same, there is a difference from which to stop the ship for inspection.
      and their weight is not so great.
      1. +4
        8 December 2018 12: 43
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        saluting (absolutely obligatory thing)

        Yes Just one trunk where the thread at the stern is enough
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        shooting of small targets (the same mine boats)

        what Much more convincing for small targets is the explosion of a 120mm high explosive charge without even hitting the target, next to it than a shot from a pair of small-caliber squads smile
        The same goes for
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        from which to stop the ship for inspection.

        Yes It’s better to increase the ammunition load of the GC than to carry the farts feel
        Personally, my opinion request
        1. +3
          8 December 2018 12: 58
          Well, this is not only your opinion !! Take the Hohezeflot experience - where 105mm guns were recognized as weak! To drown the transport of five thousand displacement, it was necessary to shell 15 shells
          1. +6
            8 December 2018 15: 05
            And now remember when these same 105mm guns were recognized as weak.
            In PMV, that is, almost 20 years after the design of "Novik"
            1. +3
              8 December 2018 15: 57
              Gg. Even 120mm guns recognized weak !!! This is me about our auxiliary RIA
              cruiser Angara, Lena and so on ... Edman had the same guns as Gazelle and if the warships of that time were developing intensively, then there were no merchant ships. Yes EPT ... Even a 105mm WWII gun with a more powerful shell and it was problematic to drown the transport. 5th gun took about 7-10 shots ... And then 47mm
              1. +6
                8 December 2018 16: 48
                Gg. Even 120mm guns recognized weak !!! This is me about our auxiliary RIA

                What?
                How would it be softer then ... In fact, during the design of the Gazelle and Novik, merchant ships were supposed to be sunk only after certain procedures were followed. Somehow: inspection, detection of military contraband, evacuation of the crew ... and only after that, if it was impossible to drag the "merchant" to your port, then only then ... a subversive party was sent to the doomed ship, which carried out the necessary events with the help of subversive checkers :))
                You see what’s the matter, neither at our MTK, nor at German shipbuilders then there was no information that now we have with you. And it’s a little silly to rebuke them.
                And here is 47mm

                In 1898, only in the RIF there were about a hundred destroyers (and we are far from the leaders!) With a displacement of 25-35 tons, for which not only 47mm, but also smaller shells were a lot of trouble.
              2. +5
                8 December 2018 17: 08
                Quote: Nehist
                This is me about our auxiliary RIA
                cruiser Angara, Lena and so on ...




                The auxiliary cruisers did not have tasks to land in a squadron battle, and those in the photo were enough to stop the transport.
            2. +3
              8 December 2018 16: 05
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              Now remember when these same 105mm guns were recognized as weak

              Design of cruisers like "Gazelle"
              The first German type, which can be replaced by a new generation of light cruisers, the basic model for the subsequent types until the end of the World War. He became a successful compromise between the ocean cruiser and the squadron reconnaissance.

              The main armament was a 105-mm gun, on which the Germans had high expectations in terms of combating enemy destroyers and armed commercial ships: the practical rate of fire and firepower of these guns significantly exceeded the capabilities of the old German six-inch. However, in reality they had to fight the British cruisers, who had much more powerful artillery.

              The choice of weapons composition is based on the functions for which the ship is designed and built. If the ship is not used for what it is designed for, then the armament is no longer to blame Yes hi As we see, for the destruction of destroyers and the fight against merchants, 105mm guns are quite enough according to the Germans request
              1. +1
                8 December 2018 16: 21
                Practice has shown that if 105mm destroyers were enough, then civilian parades which in three were superior to destroyers with a displacement of 105mm are problematic ...
                1. +1
                  8 December 2018 17: 01
                  Quote: Nehist
                  then civilian parades which in three outperformed destroyers with a displacement of 105 mm are problematic ...

                  Um ... Germans didn’t think so request smile They created a successful 105mm gun and did not change it on cruisers until the PMV
                2. +2
                  8 December 2018 17: 16
                  Practice has shown that if 105mm destroyers were enough, then civilian parades ...

                  Cheer up a colleague ...)) What practice and when? In PMV, submariners mainly tried to drown (from 88mm) the economy of torpedoes if the merchant ate to escape.
                  They wrote up that:
                  Even 120mm guns were recognized weak !!! This is me about our auxiliary RVS cruisers

                  For bad shells (and gunners)) the gun is not to blame. And in that war, the Russians' 305mm turned out to be "weak"
              2. +3
                8 December 2018 16: 58
                By the way, the first British Sentinel-class scouts laid down in 1904 (!) Were originally armed with 10 - 76mm guns Yes
            3. +1
              8 December 2018 17: 25
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              Now remember when these same 105mm guns were recognized as weak

              Ivan hi , the Germans had to use their cruisers to confront the enemy, who was better armed. Therefore, with the outbreak of war, they began to rearm them. And so for the fight against trade and destroyers, they were quite enough .. The Germans were simply forced to go on strengthening. But for the beginning of the century, 105 mm art is quite adequate smile
          2. +1
            8 December 2018 21: 24
            Quote: Nehist
            Take the Hohezeflot experience - where 105mm guns were recognized as weak! To drown the transport of five thousand displacement, it was necessary to shell 15 shells

            =====
            Yes, not 15 !!! Much more!!!
            PS By the way, rather not "Hochseeflotte" but "Kaiserliche Marine" (this caliber was more popular on armored and then light cruisers !!!) hi
        2. 0
          10 December 2018 11: 56
          Quote: Rurikovich

          Much more convincing for small targets is the explosion of a 120mm high explosive charge without even hitting the target, next to it than a shot from a pair of small-caliber squads
          The same goes for


          47 mm guns covered a short distance, they were intended - against mine boats and as anti-boarding means (now they are blocking heavy machine guns).
          Shells are faster to deliver to them, it is faster to open fire from it (uncover trunks) and move the fire from one target to another, high rate of fire - in general, purely security functions.

          For example, a hospital in a port can be suddenly attacked by boats, boats - small-caliber guns will be the first to open fire, plus there is a plus in the operational opening of fire.
      2. +2
        8 December 2018 13: 00
        At the time of the 45 mm RPW, guns were only suitable to drive mine boats (who else would let them come up! Do not count the EDB of Sevastopol)
      3. +2
        8 December 2018 13: 05
        And yes about the weight !!! Although it’s not great, but when many guns are installed, then the weight comes out not small. And if you consider how these small-caliber guns installed, then what a weight it turns out! Some military Mars alone are not a small weight plus guns with all the reinforcements and machine tools ....
        1. +5
          8 December 2018 13: 13
          Quote: Nehist
          Although it’s not great, but when many guns are installed, then the weight comes out not small.

          Two dozen 47-mm guns with ammunition and all the stray will weigh a little more (about 24-25 tons, more likely this is the upper bar of weight, most likely it was less) than one 120-mm gun with ammunition and other things (approximately 20,5 tons). That is, in principle, not so much.
          1. +2
            8 December 2018 13: 24
            It’s good for the earth to count! The ship has other parameters! Also metocentric height. The guns just can’t be positioned ... So it's not so simple! And two dozen 47mm sea ores with all the strait weighed about 80 tons at that time.
            1. +2
              8 December 2018 13: 43
              Quote: Nehist
              It’s good for the earth to count!

              It is counted for ships. For a long time I was looking for information on the weight distribution of artillery with all the stray ships, one 47-mm gun, along with the BC, weighed about 1,2 tons. Two dozen of these guns could not weigh 80 tons.
              1. +2
                8 December 2018 13: 53
                That is, you claim that the 47 mm guns of the 1890-1910 model weighed less than the guns of the same caliber but the sample for example, 1930? A strange statement ... And yes, a little nuance! Small-caliber marine guns are heavier than field ones! A heavy caliber is even heavier than a similar caliber
                1. +5
                  8 December 2018 14: 16
                  Quote: Nehist
                  Strange statement ...

                  No stranger than your statement, on which you are trying to substantiate the entire gun of the development of the 1880's by the weight of the guns of the 1930's. Hint is a very bad technique smile It is not necessary to take figures from the sky, but to sit down and count.

                  Speaking specifically, I was a little mistaken. Offhand, from the Internet, EXACT figures:
                  - gun weight - 240kg;
                  - the weight of the machine - there were three types, the weight, respectively, 524, 532 or 213kg;
                  - ammunition weight - a rather controversial topic due to the different number of shells, the maximum ammunition load for the 47-mm gun on ships seems to be equal to 812 shells weighing 1,5kg, total 1218kg;
                  - the weight of the reinforcements, spare parts, equipment of the cellars and other things could not be precisely determined, therefore, it can be recognized only by analogy with other tools that have specific numbers, and this figure will be approximately 360kg;
                  - the supply of shells to the 47-mm guns, as I recall, was either manual or by group elevators from the cellar, in any case, counting the elevators for each gun is not the best idea;

                  In total, in the worst case, with the heaviest machine and maximum BC, but not counting the weight of the feed mechanisms (which might not have been), one 47-mm gun cost about 2350kg on the ship. Yes, it’s twice as much as I originally thought, but 20 pieces will pull a maximum of 50 tons, but not at all on 80 - even the fur. elevators will not pull extra tons on 30, since if they were, they are group tons, and the elevator under 120-mm shots weighed an average of 2 tons. The error in the calculus crept in most likely in the details - I could count in due time on a smaller BC, and on a light machine, which could give just an extra ton of savings.

                  And the reason why, and not 80 tons, being guided by 45-mm guns, it opens simply: 45-mm guns belong to a later era. Yes, the barrel itself could be lighter, but the machine, due to the need to conduct anti-aircraft fire, anti-recoil devices (which were not available on the 2 from the 3 types of machine tools for the 47-mm guns, the recoil energy was extinguished due to the rigid curbstone), a larger BC, and many others Features could give the very same 80 tons on 20 trunks. Yes, what 80 - could weigh more. But this is a completely different era, and guns for other tasks, although the caliber is similar.

                  And yes, a little nuance! Small-caliber marine guns are heavier than field ones! A heavy caliber is even heavier than a similar caliber

                  Sorry, but these are common phrases. I'm interested in SPECIFIC figures. If you continue to insist on 80 tons - you are so kind as to bring the calculation, and not for the guns and installations from a completely different era of the development of naval artillery, but for the specific 47-mm guns of Hotchkiss.
                  1. +1
                    9 December 2018 15: 55
                    [/ quote] one 47-mm gun cost about 2350 kg on the ship. Yes, it’s twice as much as I originally thought, but 20 pieces will pull a maximum of 50 tons, but not 80 [quote]

                    On "Slava", 20 47-mm cannons with b / s pulled "only" 66 tons, i.e. there were almost 3,3 tons for each tool, and this, without elevators and other things.
                    All 47-mm single-barrels had POU, regardless of the weight of the machine.
        2. +2
          8 December 2018 15: 14
          Just a moment.
          After a meeting in March 1899, at the suggestion of Admiral de Livron, light mars with machine guns were installed on rank II cruisers. (We're discussing Novik, aren't we?)
          In general, it is interesting that the famous retrograde Verkhovsky with the support of Birilev and Rozhdestvensky came out against military Mars (in general).
          1. +1
            8 December 2018 16: 04
            Even retrograde cities have smart thoughts. Here I moved the thought in general about the futility of small-caliber guns, not only Novik. But even on Novinka there was an excess of them, which, in fact, history confirmed to the WWII dozens of small-caliber guns no one put
        3. +1
          8 December 2018 21: 38
          Quote: Nehist
          And if you consider how these small-caliber guns installed, then what a weight it turns out! Some military Mars alone are not a small weight plus guns with all the reinforcements and machine tools ....

          =========
          good Well, if we add that the "mars" guns were placed, how much higher than the "center of mass" of the ship, then it comes out to stability and the swing of the roll, they influenced oh, how bad!
      4. +1
        8 December 2018 16: 33
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        Well, with 47mm guns it's not that simple. There are a lot of tasks for which the power of the 4.7 "gun is excessive.

        ==========
        Alas, Ivan !!! History has proven otherwise !! For ALL of the tasks you listed (salutes, warnings, etc.) - 2x47 mm guns - MORE than enough !!! The experience of the Russo-Japanese War-it confirmed !!! hi
        1. +6
          8 December 2018 16: 52
          History has proven otherwise !!

          Yes, I do not argue. Just a story, proved it already after of how "Novik" was built and managed to fight :)))
          1. 0
            8 December 2018 21: 40
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            I’m not arguing. Just history, proved it after Novik was built and managed to fight :)))

            =======
            good This is HISTORICAL EXPERIENCE !!! what
        2. +3
          8 December 2018 17: 37
          2x47 mm guns - MORE than enough !!!

          Great dispute, two or ALL SIX))) The difference in weight is negligible, and afterglow even the French came much later; even their last predecessors (Danton) had a dozen of them.
          The harm from them is not in weight, but in the fact that in battle (according to the RIF's combat schedule), their servants stood on the deck next to them, regardless of the situation (there are no torpedo boats). Look at the loss of the crew of the Varyag (from the previous publication of Andrey) - more than half did not participate in the "battle" at all.
          1. +3
            8 December 2018 20: 30
            Quote: anzar
            The harm from them is not in weight, but in the fact that in the battle (according to the combat schedule of the RIF) their servants stood on the deck near them, regardless of the situation (there are no destroyers).

            And you can recall Gromoboy, whose commander, in addition, carefully replenished the losses of the servants of small artillery in a squadron battle at a great distance.

            The harm of small guns is not in their weight but in the huge number of gun servants of this useless trifle, however, requiring space for accommodation and supplies for feeding.
            1. +2
              8 December 2018 23: 04
              ... and in a huge number of gun servants of this useless trifle

              In part, yes, although they were supplemented by a decrease in servants of larger calibers and emergency parties (if you guessed to keep them down until needed)
          2. 0
            8 December 2018 21: 57
            Quote: anzar
            The harm from them is not in weight, but in the fact that in battle (according to the RIF's combat schedule), their servants stood on the deck next to them, regardless of the situation (there are no torpedo boats). Look at the loss of the crew of the Varyag (from the previous publication of Andrey) - more than half did not participate in the "battle" at all.

            ========
            Well, weight also matters !!! And also ammunition, gun crews, etc. etc.....
            What about the fact that a part of the Varyag's crew did not de facto participate in the battle - it is ABSOLUTELY obvious !!! Even without Andrey's publications! Pay attention to the location of the artillery (especially the MAIN caliber of the cruiser) - out of 12 6 inches of fire on one side (and the battles were fought in that war!) Could only be 6 (!!) 50%!! By the way, the Bogatyr-class cruisers had a one-time side salvo much more powerful (8 out of 12 guns worked !!) ...
            1. +1
              9 December 2018 09: 37
              By the way, the Bogatyr-class cruisers had a one-time side salvo much more powerful (8 out of 12 guns worked !!) ...

              this is a one-time volley, but if you take the minute one, everything is not so rosy there, due to the lower rate of fire of the turret guns.
              However, the TTZ indicated the need to develop the greatest fire in the bow and stern. it is obvious that the location of the guns on the Varyag proceeded precisely from this.
              1. 0
                9 December 2018 23: 11
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                However, in TTZ the need was indicated to develop the greatest fire in the bow and stern.

                Unfortunately, none of the commanders has ever used this opportunity in battle. It’s especially annoying for the battle at Gotland where such a solution itself suggested itself, but .. the admirals of the fleet of the Republic of Ingushetia are not looking for simple and obvious solutions: ((((
              2. +1
                10 December 2018 15: 23
                This is only relevant for drills or firing from a safe distance. In battle, even close bursts of shells and shrapnel of gun crews sharply reduce the rate of fire (remove the wounded and killed, replace the knocked-out gunners), while the turret and casemate guns will continue at the same pace. Not to mention that you also need to know the nature of "your" gun.
                1. +2
                  10 December 2018 17: 22
                  Here, many refer to the experience of the REV ... so, in her experience, the towers on light cruisers were abandoned, and for a long time :)
                  1. +1
                    10 December 2018 21: 40
                    If you are talking about "Svetlana", then this is just one project that has turned into a super long-term construction. If there was also the next series without tower ones, then it could be argued that this is a tendency, and so, in my opinion, everything depends on funding and so the project of "lights" was milked in favor of "Izmailov". 15 130-ok, belt, and if with towers, it is an increase in displacement and, accordingly, cost, and the budget is already strained to the limit, the Duma will definitely not write out additional finances. So, not to fat ...
                    1. 0
                      11 December 2018 09: 27
                      I mean that the first after the "heroes" light cruisers with turret-mounted guns were the "Omaha" laid down in 1918-1920. And it cannot be said that these were successful ships.
                      1. 0
                        11 December 2018 09: 46
                        Good morning. Are we not discussing Russian shipbuilding? After all, we had our own path, different from the rest.
                        Sevastopoli "and" Izmail "are examples of this.
                      2. 0
                        11 December 2018 10: 04
                        I’m not a god knows what a connoisseur, but my opinion is, again, everything rested on money. EVERYONE rushed to build expensive dreadnought and tower light cruisers fell under the knife of economy.
                      3. 0
                        11 December 2018 12: 17
                        And you.
                        There are many chances that the "Svetlans" built as turrets would not have shone either ... this problem was not solved with the technologies of that time.
      5. Alf
        +2
        8 December 2018 16: 37
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        All the same, there is a difference from which to stop the ship for inspection.

        You're right. Rupture of a 120-mm shell in front of the nose is much more understandable to the merchant’s crew.
        1. +2
          8 December 2018 16: 53
          Traders, as a rule, had enough less :)))
          1. 0
            8 December 2018 20: 33
            Not a fact :) Traders and fishermen are much more stubborn than the military.

            "www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNvXOy7bXYw"

            The Russians do not give up!
        2. +1
          10 December 2018 15: 33
          Yes, if the treasury is bottomless. Consider the cost of shots in your calculations. If you use the main caliber of a cruiser for saluting and signaling "traders", it is a little expensive and unnecessary shooting of barrels.
      6. +2
        8 December 2018 20: 21
        even 75mm at that time couldn’t stop the fighter in attack by 50
    3. 0
      10 December 2018 11: 35
      Quote: Rurikovich
      For me, it was possible not to put 47mm "pukalki" at all, as well as torpedo armament, put the released weight on the same side keels and increase the main battery ammunition.


      Well, how will they go boarding on boats / boats? :)
      These guns have a security function rather than a real contribution to artillery combat.
  5. 0
    8 December 2018 10: 49
    By the way, regarding shields, as far as I know, and photos confirm this during the war, the shields from the guns were removed ... To be precise, they were removed even before the war ... That's just what it was motivated for that is not clear
    1. +1
      8 December 2018 10: 56
      Directly on the ship, the shield was removed only from the tank gun back in the PA. But for the dismantling and installation of the Novik's guns after its sinking, the shields were most likely removed from the other guns as well. And on the shore, the absence of shields does not play a significant role, but it simplifies camouflage and maintenance. hi At least in terms of logic, it was
      1. +2
        8 December 2018 11: 08
        So in the photo of the flooded cruiser there are no shields on board guns either. Okay, I’ll run to the museum to look at the original photos (at the same time I’m also kicking a gun) At the same time I will re-read the report of Colonel Artyushevsky (at that time the commandant of the post Korsakov)
        1. +3
          8 December 2018 11: 16
          smile
          Flooded Novik

          As you can see, there are shields on the side guns Yes
          The picture is clickable
          1. +2
            8 December 2018 11: 21
            I see only one thing ... I will look at the original photos with a magnifying glass. I see only youtube with a shield. I will consider the photo at the time the cruiser arrives at Korsakov port. If there is, then I admit that I was mistaken, even take pictures and lay out. So that no more doubts arise hi
            1. +2
              8 December 2018 11: 24
              The left front is also visible, as well as the rear left, which is clearly visible. Alexander, the guns on the Novik at the time of the battle at Korsakov's were with shields, except for the tank one. Don't tire your legs wink smile
              1. +2
                8 December 2018 11: 39
                I will not tire !!! Moreover, on the eve of Andrei’s articles, it would be necessary to refresh the memory (or rather somehow make a mistake) and clarify what and how it was in fact
                1. +2
                  8 December 2018 16: 17

                  As you can see, the shields were removed from the guns after the flooding of the cruiser hi
                  1. +4
                    9 December 2018 01: 14
                    I admit I was wrong, the shields were
            2. +1
              8 December 2018 22: 16
              Quote: Nehist
              I see only one thing ...

              =======
              There, indeed, the shield was removed ONLY from the "tank" gun !!!
          2. 0
            8 December 2018 16: 54

            Here's another. here guns with shields are already clearly visible hi
          3. 0
            9 December 2018 17: 48
            BEAUTY !!!
        2. -1
          8 December 2018 20: 23
          so run in and we will be happy to know the truth
    2. +1
      8 December 2018 16: 40
      Quote: Nehist
      By the way, regarding shields, as far as I know, and photos confirm this during the war, the shields from the guns were removed ... To be precise, they were removed even before the war ... That's just what it was motivated for that is not clear

      =========
      Alas!! Only - BY ACCOUNT! The Japanese widely used "fragmentation" and "high-explosive" shells, which created "clouds" of small fragments, which allowed them to disable the crews of the enemy's guns, not covered at least with light shields !!! request
      If you do not believe me, then take a look HOW they began to cover gun crews by the beginning of World War I !!! (Destroyers - not counting - there are simply weight restrictions !!) hi drinks
      1. 0
        8 December 2018 20: 25
        in the fleets of those times there were no fragmentation
        1. +1
          8 December 2018 22: 21
          Quote: rayruav
          in the fleets of those times there were no fragmentation

          =========
          There were! Were !!! The Japanese used "thin-walled" shells equipped with "shimose" (aka "melinite" or "trinitrophenol") - when bursting, an effect similar to the RGD grenade was obtained - a bunch small shards !!!
  6. +2
    8 December 2018 10: 52
    But such a model of the cruiser is exhibited in St. Petersburg in the museum:
    1. 0
      8 December 2018 20: 26
      I haven’t been there for a long time
  7. +2
    8 December 2018 14: 20
    Novik (as well as his famous descendant) are perhaps the precursors of the class of ships that would later be called "leaders" - And they suffered from the same ... they had no one to "lead" ...
    1. +1
      8 December 2018 20: 33
      comrade why are you trying to consider the development of the Russian fleet without considering the rest of the fleets, the class of leaders can be said to have begun with the swift ship
    2. +1
      8 December 2018 22: 26
      Quote: Taoist
      And they suffered from the same ... they had no one to "lead" ...

      ==========
      Sorry, Alexey! But this is not entirely true! There was such a thing! W.t.ch. and during the Second World War (in the Pacific Ocean). Simply - destroyers - were rarely used "for their intended purpose" ... They found - ANOTHER JOB !!!
      1. 0
        8 December 2018 22: 47
        We just didn't have enough destroyers, always. Those. there was practically no one to act as part of the squadron. The need for destroyers as escorts appeared much later and, in general, it was also not from a good life. And de facto, according to the idea, tactics and technical execution, the Noviks were supposed to either launch their destroyers into the attack or cover them from enemy attacks ... (which they successfully demonstrated) since they had nothing to launch into the attack ...
        1. 0
          9 December 2018 17: 50
          And now too.
  8. +2
    8 December 2018 14: 55
    On the one hand, the claim is certainly true - the double bottom of the Novik really rose to the level of the armored deck only at the extremities


    I don't think this can be considered a big complaint. In England in 1900, F. Watts designed a cruiser for reconnaissance and destruction of destroyers. Its displacement was 3800 tons, the armor deck was not much thicker than that of the Novik cruiser, the speed was 25 knots. Armament 6 - 4 inch and 10 small-caliber guns and machine guns. F. Watts also abandoned the double bottom at the location of the machine because of its height. The British did not cost it because they were "mired" in disputes about the cruiser's weapons.
  9. +1
    8 December 2018 16: 53
    +++ Great! "Firmeniy" style of respected Andrey. I didn't know some things.
    But another important drawback of the Novik hull, unfortunately, is often not paid attention ... the narrow hull ... necessary to achieve an extremely high speed of 25 knots at that time. However, it also predetermined one of the most significant shortcomings of the ship - a strong side rolling, which made Novik very unstable artillery platform

    In vain do not pay attention, UTB very bad. Although in that war they didn’t fall from stable platforms ...))))
    It was necessary to put keels, although later. I (and adm. Makarov))) am skeptical about the then "need" for special. scouts incapable of anything else. Why were 25 (and even 30!) Nodes so important? What do you have time to scout if you must run away from any sloop with guns?
    ..nothing of this was found on Novik - fire control was supposed to be carried out using "grandfather" methods ...

    This is the second bad thing that I did not know. In general, it turns out a "clean" scout with salute cannons)) Although for firing at destroyers, the TsN is not very in demand, but the 120mm cannon is the thing.
    ... such protection was very far from idealbecause it didn’t protect the crew from fragments, unless the enemy’s shell exploded in front of the gun ..

    If the ideal is light weight, it’s closer only to the Varyag)) And so, a very good protection of comedians since fragments from near undershots (a gap in the front into the water) the shield will hold, and close gaps during flights (behind) are not in nature. But of course, it will not save running trays.
    Dear Andrey, we are waiting for the continuation (but not to the detriment of the "standard" battleships!) And comparison with Boyarin in terms of possible usefulness (from the heights of afterthought))
    1. 0
      8 December 2018 21: 04
      Quote: anzar
      Why were 25 (and even 30!) Nodes so important? What do you have time to scout if you must run away from any sloop with guns?

      See the smoke on the horizon and report a lot! There were no radars, not even shelving aircraft. The fog of war began right on the horizon, it's only 10 miles.

      Quote: anzar
      fragments from near undershots (a gap in the front into the water) the shield will hold, and close gaps during flights (behind) are not in nature.

      However, it was precisely with such a flight that Rudnev and almost everything in the Varyag cabin were allegedly struck. laughing
      1. +1
        8 December 2018 22: 59
        See the smoke on the horizon and report a lot!

        For this, 25 nodes are not required. Yes, and as Makarov said, until they report, the situation will change (without a radio). Better give an example with the REV when some kind of intelligence changed something in the actions of the RIF.
        However, it was precisely such a flight that Rudnev was allegedly struck and ...

        drummers? No, the explosion was on deck.
        1. 0
          8 December 2018 23: 17
          Quote: anzar
          Better give an example with the REV when some kind of intelligence changed something in the actions of the RIF.

          Well, it's you right below the waist! Examples when our imperial admirals thought hard to find with their heads. Usually everything is at random. And these 25 knots are needed to tear away from the enemy which suddenly turned out to be unpleasantly many and in addition with large guns. Do not have time to dramatically increase the distance, catch a suitcase.

          Quote: anzar
          drummers? No, the explosion was on deck.

          The devil knows him of course, but there is a version that they shot after him, and all the hits were already after the turn. And by the way, the pencil picture in the Varyag logbook is more likely to confirm than to refute.
          1. 0
            8 December 2018 23: 32
            there is a version that they shot after him

            So is it again a shortage? The hull is eating near the hull and the projectile that flies above the deck will burst far, and fragments fly along the course of the projectile in the majority. The deck is mainly mowed by near shortfalls and the shields are completely saved from them (however, not the traders ((
            1. 0
              8 December 2018 23: 36
              Quote: anzar
              So is it again a shortage?

              We are talking about a shell that cleared almost everyone in the conning tower of the Varangian (except for Behrens :)). He exploded behind the cabin, near the foremast, but for almost all the fragments fell into the cabin, for some reason.
    2. +1
      8 December 2018 23: 03
      Quote: anzar
      I (and adm. Makarov))) am skeptical about the then "need" for special. scouts incapable of anything else

      ========
      Dear "anzar", I certainly understand that you know Russian very poorly (although the site has a "hint" - if the word is spelled incorrectly, it highlights it with a red underline and suggests the correct spelling!) ... But God bless him !! This is NOT IMPORTANT! .... But to compare YOURSELF (loved one) with the Admiral Stepan Osipovich Makarov..... This is somehow NOT CORRECT !!! Stepan Osipovich - was a genius !!! Yes Yes! Exactly - Genius!!! Who among the Admirals can boast of having created a NEW CLASS of ships ??? Icebreakers are still being built according to the principles that were laid down in the FIRST icebreaker "Ermak" !!!! And the "experimental pool" that laid the foundation for hydrodynamic research! And a lot, what else !!! AND HE - MOG !!!
      But, even GENIUS - they have a right ERRORS !!!! Do not believe? Example: GENIUS French chemist and physicist Lavoisier, during a meeting of the Paris Royal Academy of Sciences in 1768 (dedicated to the problem of meteorites) he said: "Stones are falling from the sky ?! Bullshit and nonsense! I will not believe it, even if I SEE WITH OWN EYES !!! "Today we know perfectly well what" meteorites "and their origin are .... But this in no way diminishes his (Lavoisier's) contribution to World Science !!! hi
      -----
      PS You must be more modest !!! More modest!!!
      1. +2
        8 December 2018 23: 52
        .
        .. the site has a "hint" - if the word is written incorrectly - it highlights in red ...

        True? Here in this quote, he underlined the words "highlighted in red", but not "written".
        But to compare YOURSELF (beloved) with Admiral Stepan Osipovich Makarov ..... It's somehow NOT CORRECT ... !!!

        I didn’t understand that. A joking indication of the same opinion (in something) upsets you? In your opinion, I can’t say that I have two legs, because HIS (undoubtedly great) also have two? Sorry.
        And on the issue of shields, it seems Makarov was against them. That's where he is great, but we are not)))
  10. +3
    8 December 2018 16: 54
    I never tire of repeating: Andrey, your articles are real "pearls" in the content of VO !!!
    I look forward to continuing !!!
    After the first part, I specially "wool" VO with enviable regularity - I was waiting for the second.
    Today pleased!
  11. +1
    8 December 2018 20: 45
    eventually triangular cauldrons of yarrow and itornicroft won
  12. +3
    8 December 2018 20: 57
    "It is interesting that in this matter the Germans, perhaps, thickened the colors a little. The fact is that the actual weight of the Novik power plant with a rated power of 17 hp. was about 000 tons, so it can be assumed that 800 hp could be ensured by bringing the mass of power plant up to 25 - 000 tons, and by no means 1 - 150 tons. "
    No, they didn’t thicken, since the weight of the power plant does not increase in proportion to the increase in power.
    There is such a square-cube law. Therefore, if, for example, the steam engine piston is increased in size by a third, i.e. 1,3 times, then its weight will increase by 1,3 in the third degree.
    1. +3
      8 December 2018 21: 25
      Quote: Decimam
      No, they didn’t thicken, since the weight of the power plant does not increase in proportion to the increase in power.

      Thicken :))) Who prevented just to put the fourth car, the same type of three standing on Novik? :)))))
      1. +2
        8 December 2018 21: 46
        In order to put the fourth car, you need a place. So you need additional volumes. So you need to increase the size (or reduce the supply of fuel, water, ammunition, etc.) For the fourth car you need steam. So it is necessary to increase the productivity of boilers (weight growth and volume) or put more boilers (weight and volume increase). And more steam - more fuel. And this is weight and volume. And so in a circle. The Germans, of course, left a reserve. But not more than 10%.
        1. 0
          8 December 2018 23: 38
          'Lots of cheese, lots of holes. Many holes, little cheese. A lot of cheese, little cheese. "
          1. +3
            8 December 2018 23: 49
            Unlike the weight and size characteristics of power plants in cheese, the ratio between the holes and the cheese itself is constant and does not depend on the size of the piece.
            1. +2
              9 December 2018 01: 46
              Goodnight.
              And what about the facts: the cruiser "Askold" - the weight of the power plant is 1270 tons, with a power of 23600 l / s, the cruiser "Bogatyr" is the weight of the power plant 1200 tons (for heroic machines - Melnikov R.M. "Cruiser Ochakov "paragraph 7), at a power of 20000 l / s.
              Even the "Varyag" machinery weighed approx. 1450 t., With a power of 20000 l / s.
              Andrei Nikolaevich is most likely right. 2000t. it's already weight
              Power plant "Koeniga"
              Sincerely.
              1. +2
                9 December 2018 03: 46
                How can one compare power plants consisting of different mechanisms from different manufacturers and with different parameters? Moreover, the data on the loads of the ships you mentioned in different sources differ significantly.
                And in general, such a comparison is completely incorrect, since the weight of the mechanisms for a given speed is a function of the size and shape of the ship. In your example, all ships have different dimensions and hull shapes.
                1. +1
                  9 December 2018 11: 53
                  Good afternoon. And what doesn’t suit you in my answer? I gave examples of power in the weight category in the region of 1200, i.e. from the same time as Novik.
                  1. +1
                    9 December 2018 12: 25
                    EI power is not defined by "weight category". At the same power, power plants can have completely different weights. At the end of the 60th and beginning of the 120th century, the specific weight of steam engines ranged from XNUMX to XNUMX kg / hp.
                    In addition, each ship to achieve the same speed requires a certain power, which depends on its size and shape of the hull. In addition, none of the ships you were considering had a speed of 30 knots, i.e. we don’t know how much weight and power these ships would have at such a speed.
        2. +1
          9 December 2018 14: 27
          Quote: Decimam
          In order to put the fourth car, you need a place. So you need additional volumes. So you need to increase the size (or reduce the supply of fuel, water, ammunition, etc.) For the fourth car, you need steam

          Victor, that’s all right, but installing a fourth car like a novice, with the same boilers, will not increase the weight of the control unit to 2 000 t :))))). It will give an increase of a third of power and a little more than a third of the mass, since the installation of a three-shaft becomes a four-shaft.
          Another question is the volumes that it will occupy, because they will be a quarter more than those of the three-shaft one. But if you shove boilers of increased power the SAME volume, then yes, it really will be the way you said
          1. +1
            9 December 2018 15: 28
            The four-shaft installation has its pluses and minuses. To enter four steam engines instead of three into the contours of a ship of such a small displacement is not an easy task. So here you will not get off with a simple proportion. For four steam engines, the hull width will have to be increased in any case. Under four stern devices will have to redo the stern, steering devices. Increasing the width - changing the hydrodynamics. Will have to either add power, or increase the length. So the displacement is growing. And you need to add power. And again in a circle.
            1. 0
              9 December 2018 16: 48
              Quote: Decimam
              Will have to either add power, or increase the length. So the displacement is growing.

              Not necessarily, just making a longer case, saving on other weights. Even if it is a little wider - all the same, you yourself know, "the length runs".
              However, anyway, such a ship cannot be included in the 3 000; it is necessary either to refuse the armor altogether, or ... even I don’t know what
              1. +1
                9 December 2018 17: 06
                So to put a gas turbine power plant, what is there to think.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. +1
        9 December 2018 12: 10
        Good afternoon. Isn’t it easier to use mixed heating boilers to boost boost, no?
        1. +2
          9 December 2018 14: 07
          Better yet, purely oil. However, we proceed from a real situation, and at the time the design of Novik began, the issue of oil heating of boilers had not yet prevailed in the minds of the admirals. If my memory serves me, the oil heating system was dismantled at the Rostislav before the Russo-Japanese war.
          1. 0
            9 December 2018 23: 29
            Quote: Decimam
            If my memory serves me, the oil heating system was dismantled at the Rostislav before the Russo-Japanese war.

            As far as I remember, experiments with oil heating were carried out in the Port Arthur squadron. They refused from the oil supply due to the rapid burning of the pipes, "suddenly" it turned out that the temperature of the oil burners is sharply higher than from the coal on the grate. As if it was impossible to guess in advance :)

            In later boilers for mixed oil and coal supply, the lining of refractory bricks in the furnace of the boiler and burner nozzles were simply made thicker and sent to the refractory.
      4. 0
        10 December 2018 16: 30
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Thicken :))) Who prevented just to put the fourth car, the same type of three standing on Novik? :)))))


        In general, the fourth car could realize its power through three screws? As far as I remember, the screws on Novik, according to the test results, had to be reduced in diameter, changed parameters, synchronized rotation (something related to the bending of the hull with the area of ​​onboard vehicles.

        Wash at the same Emelin
        The propellers of the side shafts initially differed slightly from the average: the former had a diameter of 4 m and the latter 3,9 m. After the accident, on May 11, 1901, when the spool of the medium-pressure cylinder of the left machine broke during the tests, new, slightly smaller diameters were installed screws - 3,9 and 3,76 m, respectively. Strong vibration of the case forced, in October 1901, to change the screws again. In the final version, the side three-bladed propellers had a diameter of 3.9 m and a pitch of 5.34 m, and the average four-bladed propeller had 3,56 and 5,25 m.


        The fourth machine is the fourth shaft of the screw, the placement of machines on the sides with even greater expansion of the hull, an increase in displacement.
        The German specialist Novik called something like a "casing for cars" due to the fact that their weight ratio reached almost 30%
    2. +1
      8 December 2018 23: 19
      Quote: Decimam
      No, they didn’t thicken, since the weight of the power plant does not increase in proportion to the increase in power.

      ========
      good Bravo! I was also going to note this mistake of the Author (which in no way detracts from the merits of Andrei's work !!!). In addition, dynamic and wave impedance still need to be considered !!!!
      1. +4
        8 December 2018 23: 31
        Yes, the author is one of the few on the site who is interested in reading.
  13. +1
    8 December 2018 21: 08
    Pay attention to the gorgeous photo with Novik's open karapas armor deck! That is what the main defense of the armored ships of that time looked like. And it worked!
    1. 0
      11 December 2018 09: 29
      Excuse me, what do you mean?
  14. +3
    9 December 2018 04: 19
    Quote: Rurikovich
    But for the dismantling and installation of the Novik's guns after its sinking, the shields were most likely removed from the other guns as well. And on the shore, the absence of shields does not play a significant role, but it simplifies camouflage and maintenance.

    Yes, there were no shields on the guns installed on the shore.

    Here is a sketch from the Novika logbook describing the installation of 120mm and 47mm guns on the shore.
    The gun was mounted on 32 logs in a 0,9 meter deep pit so that the "dead space" was minimal.
    And here is a photo of the gun from the "Novik", exhibited in the Japanese museum.

    Guys, please.
    Please let me know if the photos I posted are visible or not? I can’t see anything, no photos in the article, no photos in the comments.
    1. +1
      9 December 2018 04: 48
      All photos are well visible
  15. +1
    9 December 2018 16: 41
    Interesting article.
  16. 0
    9 December 2018 21: 42
    Dear Andrey, I have been reading your most interesting articles for a long time. Such a question: you are talking about the shortcomings of the three-shaft scheme and again mention that on "Peresvet" the side screws could not rotate freely on the move under the average machine and created frantic disturbances of the flow. However, Melnikov reads:
    On November 12, already in the North Sea (ships were moving at 10-knots economic speed), the detachment had to drift for an hour and a half, waiting for the Victory to cope with the transition from movement under the middle vehicle (it had to be stopped due to leakage condenser) to the movement under the airborne. To do this, it was necessary to disconnect and communicate with the shafts the corresponding propellers so that the idle ones could freely rotate while the ship was moving.

    That is, there were disconnect clutches, and "Pobeda" made 10 knots under an average car - worthy, in my opinion. Actually, this question was raised in your cycle on "Peresvet", where the impossibility of moving under one machine was put in a reproach to the project. But it turns out there was an opportunity. Some time after reading the cycle, I came across this fact. I didn't write there anymore, but now I saw the touch on this topic again and logged in to write a comment :)
    1. +1
      10 December 2018 07: 38
      Greetings, dear Denis!
      Quote: Denis Razumov
      However, we read at Melnikov

      That's right, but there is no contradiction.
      Quote: Denis Razumov
      That is, there were disconnect couplings, and "Pobeda" under the average car made 10 knots

      That's right :))) But Peresvet is blamed not for the lack of disconnect couplings, but for the lack of a mechanism that would allow all 3 screws to be rotated by one machine :))) That is, it turns out like this - the average machine rotates the screw, it pushes the ship forward, and " "water flow" spins up the other two. And for this process, the consumption of coal was much higher than planned, which is why the ships were called coal eaters. And if there was a mechanism in which an average machine could rotate all 3 screws at the same time, there would be no problems, since physically it is a much less energy-consuming process due to the loss of efficiency in the scheme "machine - one screw - water - two screws" in comparison with the scheme "car - three screws".
      Well, on Novik, they used 2 screws for the economic move, perhaps it would be enough just to disconnect the third one.
      1. 0
        10 December 2018 08: 30
        Perhaps the couplings did not work or were simply afraid to breed them. They were afraid that if necessary (in battle) they would not be able to close them.
      2. +1
        10 December 2018 11: 19
        And if there was a mechanism in which the middle machine could rotate all 3 screws ...

        Yeah. if only ... Dear colleague Andrey, could not then still make tooth gears of the required power and RELIABILITY (even under the economy). Look at the distance between the shafts - here one tooth pair, even of a large diameter (which is geometrically impossible, will protrude from under bottoms) - not enough. Not to offer bevel gears))) In terms of reliability, they would receive "Varyag" in advance)))
        In those days, a possible scheme econom. move, like D. Donsky’s, two cars on one shaft (with a coupling between them). Although the screws also optimize for a certain speed (on warships, the maximum)), there will still be profit. At Relights, let's say there will be two shafts, 4 cars.
        And they were "coal eaters" (they were called) rather because of the boilers - the coal consumption in the parking lot was also outstanding)))
        But Novik yes, the coupling on the middle screw would probably help.
        1. +1
          10 December 2018 15: 17
          Quote: anzar
          Yeah. if ... Dear colleague Andrei, we still couldn’t do the dental gears of the necessary power and RELIABILITY

          Dear colleague, here is one of two things:
          OR you had to be wise with the transfers to 3 of the screw (maybe not dental, but some, I don’t know). OR it was not necessary to tackle the three-shaft scheme at all, but to make the usual two-shaft
          1. +2
            10 December 2018 16: 54
            OR ... OR it was not necessary to tackle the three-shaft scheme at all, but to make the usual two-shaft

            I agree with you, dear Andrei, and since the first one is in no way, the second remains (not in the usual version, but 2x2, which was proposed for Rurik)
            Although the French and Germans, and even wink Russians (goddesses)) had no problems with the three-shaft GEU. Problems arose when I wanted to get a longer than usual range / autonomy due to the economy of cars on the part. loads.
            And in the case of Novik, what range do we want from the "cover for cars")) squeezed by the requirements "> 25uz." and "<3000t"? It would be very nice if you make a "functional" comparison of Novik and Boyarin within the cycle - 3 and 2 shafts, Schultz / Belleville, speed and range (sufficient / insufficient for projected / actual use ... But you are a master, so we wait hi
            1. 0
              10 December 2018 20: 39
              When calculating the propeller resistance, it is necessary to take into account the resistance of the propeller shaft oil seal, squeezed a little more and the load will increase by an order of magnitude and all the savings will remain on paper. Adjustment of any mechanism, in the absence of a clear algorithm and instruments of change, is always subjective and will differ from the project.