Armored decked lightning. Cruiser II rank "Novik"

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This article opens the cycle dedicated to stories creation and service of the armored cruiser of the 2nd rank "Novik". We must say right away that the ship turned out to be very unusual - neither during its design and bookmarking, nor during its entry into service, the Novik had no direct analogues either in Russian or in foreign naval fleets... He became, to a certain extent, a landmark not only for domestic, but also for world military shipbuilding, becoming the ancestor of a new subclass of cruisers, later called scouts.

On the other hand, the design of the ship was very controversial, because the undoubted merits of the project were combined with very significant drawbacks, but perhaps this could have been avoided? The fighting in Port Arthur made Novik a famous and famous ship in Russia, but was its potential fully revealed? How wisely could the admirals manage the capabilities of this very specific ship? What success could he have achieved in battle? Was he used according to his tactical purpose, was he suitable for him? How justified was the construction of a series of such ships, considering the very different from the prototype Pearl and Emerald, as well as Boyarin, which was built according to a separate project? Did the fleet need small cruisers at all, and if so, was the Novik the optimal type of such a ship? In the cycle of articles offered to your attention, we will try to answer these and many other questions.



The history of the Novik armored cruiser can be counted from the Special Meeting held in November 1895, at which, perhaps, for the first time, the question was raised about the need for small reconnaissance cruisers with a displacement of 2-3 thousand tons intended for service in squadrons. But then a positive decision on this type of ships was not taken, and the question was “deferred” indefinitely.
However, they returned to him in 1897, when, during two meetings held on 12 and 27 in December, a radical strengthening of naval forces in the Far East was planned. Unfortunately, in 1895, the danger of strengthening the Imperial Japanese fleet has not yet been adequately assessed, but by 1897, the need to build a powerful Pacific fleet, even to the detriment of the Baltic Fleet, became quite obvious. It was clear that the Pacific Fleet needed to be built, but ... which one? The special meeting was to not only make a decision to strengthen our naval forces in the Far East, but also to determine the composition of the Pacific Squadron, that is, the number and types of warships to be built for Far Eastern needs.

In the intervals between the two meetings, some of the admirals participating in them expressed their views in writing. Perhaps the most conservative (if not to say mossy) were the views of Vice Admiral N.I. Kazakov, who believed that the Russian battleships were so good, and did not need to increase the speed and displacement, but did not say anything at all about the cruiser reconnaissance aircraft. Vice-Admiral I.M. Dikov in his note recommended to establish the proportion according to which one battleship of a squadron should account for one small reconnaissance cruiser and one destroyer.

Perhaps the most interesting and robust program presented by Vice-Admiral N.I. Skrydlov: in addition to three battleships of the Poltava and Peresvet type with Oslyabya, he proposed to build another battleship-cruiser of the Peresvet type and three large 15 000 armored ships. Thus, the squadron of the Pacific Ocean would receive nine battleships of three types, three units each, while the latter could have been created absolutely not inferior to those that Japan ordered for itself in England. To these impressive linear forces N.I. Skrydlov recommended adding the same number of reconnaissance cruisers (one for each battleship) with a displacement of 3 000 - 4 000 t.

But the most “ornate” structure was proposed by the future governor of His Imperial Majesty in the Far East, and at that time Vice-Admiral E.A. Alekseev, who proposed the formation of a squadron of eight battleships, eight armored cruisers, eight large armored cruisers in 5 000 - 6 000 t. Displacement and eight small reconnaissance cruisers, but not one, but two types. E.A. Alekseev proposed building four small cruisers for 3 000 - 3 500 and as many with a displacement of less than 1 500.

As we have said, the reconnaissance cruiser was a new type of warship, which had no analogues in the Russian Imperial Navy before. The squadron battleships, although they did not keep their lineage from the sailing battleships of gray times, performed the same function and task - defeating the main enemy forces in a linear battle. Domestic cruisers, as a class of ships, gradually grew out of frigates, corvettes and clippers, but here, in fact, everything is not easy. The evolution of frigates is the most understandable - the latter, having received first steam engines and iron hulls, then turned into armored cruisers.


Armored frigate "Minin"


But the development of corvettes and clippers went a more complicated way. At the time of the sailing fleet, the corvette was intended for reconnaissance and messenger service, and as such could have been considered the distant ancestor of the Novik, but the fact that with the advent of the steam era this class of ships in the domestic fleet evolved very quickly into a “thoroughbred” cruiser, there is a ship, the main task of which is the violation of enemy shipping. As for the clippers, their first screw representatives in the domestic fleet were generally intended for the defense of the White Sea in the north, and could be regarded more as a kind of high-speed version of a gunboat. However, a little later, it was considered necessary to charge the clippers with ocean cruising. And it turned out that Russia began to design and build corvettes and clippers as light ocean cruisers: accordingly, having similar tasks, the ships of these classes quickly became close in their tactical and technical characteristics. In essence, in the 1860's, the Russian clipper was a ship, about a quarter lighter than a corvette and with lighter weapons, but at the same time superior to a corvette in speed.

It is not surprising that the construction of two classes of ships for the Russian fleet, designed to solve practically the same tasks, could not be justified: sooner or later, corvettes and clippers had to either merge into one class, or receive different tasks justifying the existence of both classes. For some time, the first path prevailed: with the advent of the metal hulls, the construction of the corvettes stopped, only frigates and clippers were laid. We are talking, of course, about the Clippers of the “Cruiser” type - but alas, it would have been difficult to come up with a ship less suitable for use as a reconnaissance vehicle in a squadron than domestic clippers with a metal hull.


Clipper type "Cruiser"


Having a small size (1 334 t) and, accordingly, cost, clippers of the type “Cruiser” were very slow moving, losing in speed even with much larger domestic armored frigates. Founded in 1873, the “Cruiser” under the steam engine was supposed to produce 12 units, while the armored “General-Admiral” and “Herzog Edinburgh”, which were started in 1869 and 1872, were to be built. accordingly, they calculated the speed in 14 nodes, although in fact, due to overload, it developed slightly more than 13 nodes. But the developed cruiser armament of the “Cruiser” was supposed to provide him speed under sail to 13 knots, which, of course, was not expected from armored frigates. High speed sailing, without a doubt, seriously increased the autonomy of the clippers, but did not help at all with the service during the squadron. Yes, strictly speaking, they didn’t need it, because at the time of the construction of the Cruisers, no squadron in which they could serve existed in nature. The Russian Empire, cramped in funds, then refused to build battleships, preferring a cruising strategy and focusing on armored frigates and clippers. Thus, “in the face of” Clippers of the “Cruiser” type, the domestic fleet received very specific ships specialized for operations on enemy communications, and in addition, capable of displaying a flag and representing the interests of Russia abroad. As for the corvettes, they were not built ... more precisely, not quite so, because the armored "General-Admiral" and "Herzog Edinburgh" armored corvettes were originally designed, but then they were enlisted in the "frigate" rank.

Years passed, and it became clear that the clipper concept no longer justifies itself, and that more rapid and powerful ships are needed for operations on oceanic communications. Those were the Vityaz and Rynda, the first armored cruisers of the Russian Empire, which were not very fast, but significantly larger (3 000), and better armed than the Cruiser.



Since the Vityaz and Rynda occupied an intermediate position between armored frigates and clippers, they were called corvettes during laying, so this class of ships was revived for a while in the Russian fleet only to give rise to armored cruisers. But the history of clippers in the domestic shipbuilding is over.

Thus, despite the presence in the Russian Imperial Navy of two classes of ships identical to the light cruiser, both corvettes and clippers were created primarily for ocean cruising, and could not be considered a prototype of a cruiser reconnaissance in a squadron, and the same, in general, It also refers to the first armored cruisers of the Russian fleet, the Vityaz and Rynde, and then came a long vacation in the construction of ships of this class. In the period from 1883 to 1896, only two such ships were ordered: the Admiral Kornilov and Svetlana armored cruisers. But the first of them continued the Vityaz development line in the direction of the ocean cruiser to fight on communications - it was a very large ship, whose normal displacement would be calculated to be 5 300 t



As for the "Svetlana", its dimensions were more modest (slightly more than 3 900 t normal displacement), but you need to understand that this ship was not the embodiment of the admirals' tactical views, but the whim of General Admiral Alexey Alexandrovitch, who was impressed (of a different word and you will not pick up) to have a personal yacht in the form of an armored cruiser, for which he selected a French prototype that suits him. In other words, the combat qualities of the Svetlana were relegated to the background, this cruiser did not fit into the concept of the national fleet and, accordingly, there could be no question of building a series of such ships in domestic shipyards - admirals of the Russian fleet seemed unnecessary.

The further development of armored cruisers led to the appearance of Pallas-type ships built at domestic shipyards in 1897. Here our naval thought swept aside (I must say, very unsuccessfully) to create a cruiser capable of both raiding the ocean and conducting reconnaissance and patrol service at the squadron. Naturally, for such versatility, we had to pay in size and in general, of course, the Pallas, Diana and Aurora did not at all resemble a specialized squadron cruiser scout.

It so happened that before 1897 (well, well, before 1895 g) a ship of this type was completely unnecessary, but then our admirals suddenly needed it in large quantities. What tasks did they set for this subclass of cruisers? E.A. Alekseev believed that such ships: “should serve in the squadron with forzeyly, reconnaissance, messenger cruisers to transfer important and urgent orders separately to the detachments or ships operating from the fleet” (forzeyl is an obsolete term for a high-speed ship going ahead of the squadron), and Ships less than 1 500 tons should also measure and reconnaissance at the coast and at the ports, which is why they needed a small draft.

Vice-Admiral I.M. Dikov considered speed to be the main quality of a scout cruiser. Such a ship, in his opinion, “can and must evade any battle, during reconnaissance, taking care not of small victories and combat differences of personnel, but of the execution of the assignment given to him ... ... From the experiments in the Black Sea, it can be concluded that the results the intelligence services are proportional not to the speeds, but almost to the squares of the speeds of the intelligence officers. ”

It seems to be a rather strange picture - almost all vice-admirals spoke in favor of building small reconnaissance cruisers, narrowly specialized for service in a squadron in an enormous number (one for each battleship), and yet two years ago the question of their construction was "Safely" launched on the brakes. One can try to explain this paradox by the fact that by the 1897 in the Baltic the fleet had received an armored squadron from relatively modern ships and already had some experience of their joint actions. We are talking about two "battleships-ram" type "Emperor Alexander II", as well as "Sisoe Veliky" and "Navarino", of which the first three at the end of 1896 - the beginning of 1897. together with the mine-cruisers and destroyers attached to them, they formed the Mediterranean squadron. The latter even had to take part in the “operation close to combat” - the blockade of Fr. Crete, announced 6 March 1897 g (old style). And it can be assumed that the practice of driving an armored squadron showed the extreme need for specialized cruisers for the squadron service. After all, creating the newest battleships, the Russian Empire did not care at all about the ships “serving” them, and those that were part of the fleet were not suitable for such work. Armored cruisers were large ocean raiders, remaining clippers were too slow-moving (even slower than battleships), mine-cruisers did not have enough speed and seaworthiness, and the destroyers, although they had sufficient speed (ships of the Falcon type developed 26,5 ties), but had too low displacement and, as a result, quickly lost this speed during agitation, while not having sufficient autonomy.

During the Special Meeting, the General-Admiral, who, apparently, was somewhat shocked by the admirals' demand to build such a number of reconnaissance cruisers, suggested abandoning them, and using the saved funds to strengthen the Pacific Squadron with one or even a pair of newest battleships. But the rest of the admirals chose to reject the proposal, pointing out that now, in the absence of other ships, the service in the squadron has to be assigned to gunners of the Korean and Thundery types, which were completely unsuitable for this role. It can be assumed that in spite of the fact that the gunboats were never intended for squadron service at all, other ships of the national navy were even less suitable for it.

True, in the Black Sea, a similar connection existed from 1899, when the first three battleships of the Catherine II type entered service, and, in theory, the need for reconnaissance cruisers should have been revealed long ago. What prevented this - it is difficult to say: it was possible that the Black Sea armadillos were considered primarily as a means of capturing the Bosporus and the encounter in it with the ships of the European powers, if the latter defend Turkey. Possibly, the remoteness of the Black Sea theater from St. Petersburg affected, by virtue of which the latter was not as “in sight” as the Baltic theater, and its problems were heeded less. But in any case, it should be noted that Vice-Admiral I.M. Dikov, in his note, referred to some "experiments in the Black Sea," irrefutably indicating the need for small, high-speed cruisers as part of an armored squadron. Unfortunately, the author of this article was unable to find out what these "experiments" were, but it is obvious that the Black Sea squadron, which by the end of 1897 had already consisted of six battleships (four types of "Catherine II", "Twelve Apostles" and "Three saints"), also felt a great need for ships of this type.

The special meeting determined the squadron of the Pacific in 10 squadron battleships (counting the construction of three ships of the Sevastopol type and two types of Peresvet), four armored cruisers, 10 X-ray armored cruisers of the 1-rank and 10 armored cruisers of the 2 cruisers-XIHXX cruisers of the 2-X cruise cruisers of the 36-grade and 11 armored cruisers of the 1898 cruisers of the 2 XNUMX cruisers of the XNUMX-X cruise cruisers of the XNUMX X-grade cruisers and XNUMX of the XNUMX X-ray cruisers of the XNUMX-X cruise cruisers. scouts cruisers. In addition, it was also planned to bring the total number of mine forces in the Far East to XNUMX minelayers, XNUMX "fighters" and XNUMX destroyers. Subsequently, however, by the Special Meeting of XNUMX, this composition underwent some changes - one armored cruiser was added, and X-NUMX-grade armored cruisers were reduced to six. Despite all this, the shipbuilding program for the needs of the Far East should be recognized as quite timely and adequate - but alas, its adoption was marked by events that largely predetermined the outcome of the Russo-Japanese war.

The fact is that such naval construction, of course, was very costly and required the order of 200 million rubles. The Navy wanted to get this money before 1903, because its specialists were absolutely able to predict the year when Japan would complete its rearmament at sea and would be ready to go to war. That is exactly what happened in reality. However, the domestic Ministry of Finance, represented by its head S.Yu. Witte resisted this, deciding from something that Japan would not be able to arm until 1905. Therefore, the Minister of Finance proposed stretching the financing of the program to 1905, and moreover, reducing it by no less than 50 millions. The maritime agency with such proposals was categorically disagreed, as a result of which 20 February 1898 was held a meeting chaired by the king. A compromise was made on it - to keep financing in the amount of 200 million rubles, but to stretch it to 1905. As a result, the Russian Empire did not have time to concentrate the necessary forces in the Far East before the beginning of the war in January 1904. Who knows how to turn are you doing if by the winter of 1903 the squadron of Port Arthur numbered not 7, but 10 battleships? "The great distance" in Port Arthur justified inexpedient to give general battle 5 remaining battleships and "Bayan" squadron H. Togo, which, even after the separation from her four armored cruisers Kamimura numbered 6 2 large battleships and armored cruisers (who was joined by "Nisshin "and" Kasuga ", but what if at the beginning of the war the Russians, even with the failure of Retvizan and Tsesarevich, would have eight battleships left on the move? The statistics of the 27 January battle 1904 of Port Arthur is incontrovertible It says that at the beginning of the war, the Japanese were not at all so superior to the Russian commanders exactly that it would guarantee them victory ... And after arriving at the theater of S.O. Makarov with such a balance of forces, the general battle would have been predetermined.

But back to the scout cruisers.

Having decided to build the latter, it was necessary to determine the tactical and technical characteristics of the ships. Strangely enough, there were no disagreements among the admirals, and in March 1898 of the Marine Technical Committee (MTC) formulated the following tactical and technical elements (TTE) of the future cruiser:

Normal displacement - 3 000 t with coal stock 360 t .;

Speed ​​- 25 knots .;

Travel range - 5 000 miles at economic speeds 10 knots .;

Armament - 6 * 120-mm, 6 * 47-mm, one amphibious 63,5-mm Baranovsky gun, 6 torpedo tubes with 12 torpedoes, 25 min obstacles;

Reservations - the deck of the greatest thickness, which is possible to obtain without prejudice to the above characteristics.

These characteristics suited everyone ... well, almost everyone. Vice Admiral S.O. Makarov, as we know, promoted the idea of ​​a “vesselless vessel”, which, with a similar displacement, would have completely different qualities. For the first time, Stepan Osipovich voiced the idea of ​​his cruiser in Chief, in 1895, and remained its supporter until his death.

The “no-fighter vessel”, according to S. O. Makarov, was supposed to be an armored, very heavily armed (2 * 203-mm, 4 * 152-mm, 12 * 75-mm guns) cruiser of very moderate speed (20 knots.) and displacement (3 000 t), but a sufficiently long cruising range - up to 6 000 miles.


The numbers indicate the tools: 1 - 152-mm, 2 - 75-mm, 3 - 203-mm. Armament differs in number from that indicated in the text, since the diagram does not depict the initial version of the “non-battle ship”, but the project of restructuring the Emerald and Pearl cruisers into such cruisers.

Usually sources indicate that Stepan Osipovich, without rejecting the need for long-distance reconnaissance, believed that high speed for the ships carrying it out was not mandatory, and explained this by the fact that the situation would constantly change, and the data of such reconnaissance would in any case be outdated . This is not entirely true, because S.O. Makarov recognized the importance of speed in reconnaissance, but did not see the point in building a large number of reconnaissance ships whose combat qualities were sacrificed for speed. In his essay “Armadillos or Armless Vessels?” He wrote:

“It is recognized that vessels must be available for reconnaissance services, and that such vessels must go sooner than enemy vessels, so that by opening them you could avoid fighting and report the news to your ships. If for this we had to have 100 000 and exploration ships for every 10 000 and combat crews, then we could reconcile with the weakness of artillery and their other combat drawbacks, but it is considered that the exploration ships need much more and then the question is whether reconnaissance to produce such vessels, which are built for artillery and minefield, and in a decisive battle can fight in line with all the others. "


As you know, S.O. Makarov believed that his "direct ships" not only can fight together with the armadillos, but even are able to replace them.

On the whole, of course, the vice admiral's opinion seemed too unusual and could not be accepted (much later Stepan Osipovich still “pushed” the construction of one such ship, but these plans were immediately canceled after his death). We are not going to give an assessment to the proposal of Sergei Makarov, and we will return to it at the final stage of this series of articles, when we analyze the actions and capabilities of Novik and the high-speed domestic cruisers of the 2 rank that followed. Now we are just stating that when developing the technical specifications for designing reconnaissance cruisers, the opinion of Stepan Osipovich was ignored.

It must be said that two design tasks were developed: the first of them contained the TTEs for the three-ton 25 hub ship mentioned above, and the second one suggested bringing the cruiser speed to ... 30 knots. Unfortunately, some detailed TTX of the “30-nodal” cruiser have not yet been found, but it can be assumed that the companies themselves were asked to determine the reduction in the TTX of the “25-nodal” cruiser, which would be required to ensure speed in 30 nodes.

The exact date of the announcement of the competition for the design of the future Novik, unfortunately, is unknown to the author, presumably - the first of April 1898. And the Navy Department received the first response already on April 10 - the German firm Hovaldsverke from Kiel sent their proposals.

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  1. +13
    2 December 2018 06: 58
    the first response was received by the Maritime Administration on April 10 - the German company Hovaldswerke from Kiel sent their proposals.

    10 April 1898 attorney Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft F. Goch received in the GUKiS-e requirements for the 25-nodal cruiser, and on the 30-nodal - the next day.
    The answer with preliminary calculations for both options came from Germany on 28 in April.
    some detailed characteristics of the “30-nodal” cruiser have not yet been found, but it can be assumed that firms were asked to determine the reduction in the performance characteristics of the “25-nodal” cruiser that would be required to ensure speed in the 30 nodes.

    The Germans answer said that to achieve the cruiser 30-nodal speed needed a machine with a capacity of 25 000 l. s., the mass of which will be from 1 900 to 2 000 tons. Thus, with the displacement specified by the MTK project on the hull, artillery, fuel supply, etc., there remained about 1 000 tons.
    1. 0
      2 December 2018 22: 35
      At 30 knots speed, it would be a ship, without armor, retaining 6 TA, 2x120 mm guns and probably 4x75 ... as Rurikovich's "big destroyer" is lower ...
    2. +1
      3 December 2018 09: 38
      Greetings, dear Valentine!
      Yes, thank you, I incorrectly indicated the date of the Germans' answer, confusing it with the date they received the development requirements. But when the competition was announced nevertheless, it is still unclear.
      1. 0
        4 December 2018 01: 34
        Dear Andrey!
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        But when the competition was announced nevertheless, it is still unclear.

        So it’s said to you early April 1898 g
        During March 1898, MTK developed a program for designing a cruiser (i.e., a tactical and technical task); on April 1, the document is submitted to the State Administration of Civil Aviation, which was supposed to enter into relations with interested firms.
        Further it is known that on April 10 1898, the attorney Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft F. Goch received the requirements for the 25 nodal cruiser at the State Department of Cinematography and the next day for the 30 nodal cruiser.
        So it turns out that your assumption is correct, the competition was announced after April 1 but not later than April 9, because April 10 in GUKiS had already come for a program for the cruiser.
        Alas, there is no exact date in the sources available to us, but I will try to offer my version.
        Here is the calendar for April 1898. The document was delivered to the GUKiS on Thursday, the bureaucrats completed all the necessary procedures before the end of the week, and in the first half of the week a competition was announced, to which the German company responded already on Saturday.

        In the red frame, the most probable, from my point of view, are days when the competition could be announced. Well, only the archive will give the exact answer, alas, so far not digitized and not posted on the Internet.
        1. +1
          4 December 2018 18: 51
          Quote: Comrade
          So you also said the first of April 1898

          Yes sir!
          Quote: Comrade
          Here is the calendar for April 1898. The document was delivered to the GUKiS on Thursday, the bureaucrats completed all the necessary procedures before the end of the week, and in the first half of the week a competition was announced, to which the German company responded already on Saturday.

          I would say that your assumption is extremely similar to the truth. hi I suppose that was the case in reality
  2. +2
    2 December 2018 08: 37
    Thanks to the author hi you know how to interest, because your style of narration involves participation in the events you describe, and not just a mean, naked report about a particular historical fact hi
  3. +9
    2 December 2018 09: 24
    good Yes Favorite topic, favorite time ...
    I hope the author changes his mind about this ship, as about
    The description of the hull design, placed in the "Report on the Naval Department in 1897-1900", is very figurative: "The type II rank cruiser" Novik "is a huge destroyer of 3000 tons with a 25-knot speed.

    All the same, the functions assigned to this type of ship were described as
    implementation of close reconnaissance at the squadron, protecting it from enemy destroyers and supporting the attacks of its destroyers.

    Therefore, even with sarcasm the Novik is perceived as a large destroyer, its 120-mm artillery is still a weighty argument for the destroyers of that time. And the speed was quite suitable for its intended purpose.
    The question is always how the people who operate the ship use it to perform the functions for which it is intended. Because You, Andrey hi , tell these things later, then I will not discuss smile
    Article plus! drinks
    1. +7
      2 December 2018 11: 01
      In principle, it was so. Taking into account the real speed of the Russian destroyers in Arthur, not excluding the "Shihaus" and "French" (not to mention the "Falcons" and "Nevk"), "Novik" could well lead their attacks.
      A little later, the Germans came to such a decision, in which each destroyer division was led by a light cruiser.
      1. +3
        2 December 2018 11: 20
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        A little later, the Germans came to such a decision, in which each destroyer division was led by a light cruiser.

        I agree with you.
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        “Novik” could well lead their attacks.

        So these functions were laid in it initially request
        And German cities since "Bremen" and English scouts with 102mm art were the same berry with "Novik" hi
    2. +2
      2 December 2018 11: 25
      "Novik" as a forerunner of the leaders of destroyers, and what ... to be honest, I did not think about this option before, as did the admirals of that time ... The option is interesting smile
      I greet you and Andrei, I look forward to continuing with pleasure!
    3. 0
      3 December 2018 19: 25
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Therefore, even with sarcasm the Novik is perceived as a large destroyer, its 120-mm artillery is still a weighty argument for the destroyers of that time.

      In "Gangut", pomnitsa, there was a translation of an article in an English magazine of that time on "Novik". So in it "Novik", EMNIP, was considered, among other things, as a counter-destroyer - and examples were given of the same large destroyers, which in displacement and armament were many times superior to MM contemporaries (for example, MM with 88-mm guns against the background of contemporaries with 47-mm and 37 mm).
      1. +1
        3 December 2018 19: 43
        Quote: Alexey RA
        So in it "Novik", EMNIP, was considered, among other things, as a counter-destroyer - and examples were given of the same large destroyers, which in displacement and armament were many times superior to MM contemporaries (for example, MM with 88-mm cannons against the background of contemporaries with 47-mm and 37 mm).

        Multiple - understandable. Twice, three more I believe. But at 10 (ten)! No. Formally, according to its functions (which have already been given in the comments) "Novik" is the leader of destroyers ... It is also a counter-destroyer - with the task of destroying enemy destroyers. But then 120mm artillery is clearly redundant! In this case, it would be possible to create, for example, on the basis of the 107-mm cannon a normal rapid-fire weapon that would perfectly cope with these functions. We would have received an analogue of the German universal cruiser.
        But the trouble is that the armored deck was clearly not set to protect against the destroyers of the destroyers of that time! And 120 guns were set based on the confrontation of at least cruisers of about their size and strength, which could also be found in reconnaissance before the battle Yes Therefore, "Novik" still carried the primary functions of a cruiser. Carrying out reconnaissance immediately before a possible collision, transmitting data about the enemy, in which case, thanks to speed, maintain a distance from a stronger enemy. And only then, at the beginning of the battle, when reconnaissance as such is not needed, become the head of the destroyer detachment, providing cover when attacking the enemy (and such an attack on your ships).
        They just bought into the speed and assumed their use cases. By the way, their scouts that appeared later became direct descendants of "Novik", only with a bias in the local flavor hi
        1. 0
          4 December 2018 15: 33
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Multiple - understandable. Twice, three more I believe. But at 10 (ten)!

          Do you believe in twenty? smile
          The Germans had an 1886 SMS Greif, which was listed as a Torpedoboote - with a displacement of 1970 tons and a pair of 8,8 cm guns (according to an article in the "Engineer" magazine (1900-Nov.16; 1901-Oct.11)).
          Returning now to Novik as the first destroyer destroyer, we note that it is only seven times the size of a standard US destroyer, while Greif is twenty times larger than modern destroyers.
          © "Engineer"
          1. 0
            4 December 2018 17: 58
            Alexey hi , The "Vulture" indicated by you was listed as an "advice note". It was also ranked among the small cruisers
            "Greif" was intended not only for a messenger service with the navy and as a high-speed reconnaissance officer, but also for fighting destroyers.

            The cruiser had ramming stem, three chimneys and a low silhouette - features that became typical of later ships. The nasal 105-mm gun was on an elevated platform behind the waveguard, the second was on the utah. Mitrales were installed along the sides on the upper deck.

            Initially, the armament was 2-105 / 35 and 10-37 revolving guns with a displacement of art. 2050 tons and floor 2260t.
            Despite many progressive features, this cruiser was too weak and was not actively used.

            In 1891, he was re-equipped with 8 (subsequently 6) 88-mm guns, and the number of 37-mm card cases was also reduced to eight (then six).

            The messenger ship (since 1899 small cruiser) "Greif" (Griffin) was laid down in 1885 at the Germaniawerft in Kiel, on July 29, 1886 the ship was launched and on July 9, 1887 transferred to the Imperial Navy. "Greif" was adapted to sailing in the open sea only conditionally, since it could hardly move during strong waves.

            So no
            Torpedo boats

            he was not listed smile
            With the rapid increase in the speed of the destroyers "Greif" soon became unsuitable for fighting them, and after participating in the autumn fleet maneuvers on September 30, 1889, the ship was withdrawn from the company and sent for repairs. On November 1, 1890, it was reactivated and assigned to the torpedo test team. From June to August 1891, the ship was re-equipped at the Imperial Shipyard in Kiel: both 105 mm guns and 6 of 10 revolving guns were replaced with 8 - 88 mm guns.

            Subsequently, the service of the scout and the messenger ship alternated with repairs at the shipyard and being in reserve. On April 1, 1899, the obsolete ship was withdrawn from active service and used as a training ship, as well as for testing ship radio equipment, however, like the remaining messenger ships, it was reclassified to a small cruiser.

            In September 1901 he was transferred to the reserve fleet, from June 21, 1911 - a special ship, from October 25, 1912 - training blocking of train drivers. Too old to participate in the First World War, the ship stood on a joke, and in 1917 it was used as a mine warehouse in Kiel-Heikendorf. It was scrapped in 1921 in Hamburg.

            hi
            1. +1
              4 December 2018 18: 12
              Quote: Rurikovich
              The "Vulture" indicated by you was listed as an "advice note". It was also ranked among small cruisers

              Hmmm ... your truth - I was misled by the heading of the table "The main tactical and technical elements of a number of destroyers of the fleets of European states built in the last twenty years of the XIX century".
              In fact, it is "elements of destroyers and ships built to hunt for them". That is," Engineer "tried to pull" Novik "on the globe of counter-destroyers, considering counter-destroyers advice and torpedo cruisers such as" Greif "," Blitz "," Archer "and" Scout ".
              1. 0
                4 December 2018 18: 55
                Quote: Alexey RA
                That is, the "Engineer" tried to pull "Novik" onto the globe of the destroyers, considering the advice notes and the torpedo cruisers of the "Greif", "Blitz", "Archer" and "Scout" types to be counter-destroyers.

                Yes drinks Even at a later time, almost until the end of the era of pure artillery ships, any light cruiser can be assigned the functions of destroying the lighter enemy forces request
                So "Novik" was a clean cruiser to fulfill its feasible tasks hi
  4. +1
    2 December 2018 09: 38
    Thanks, interesting. I feel a series of interesting articles.
  5. +2
    2 December 2018 10: 12
    Many thanks to the author, his article will help me fill in the gaps in knowledge of marine history. hi Before, I knew about the existence of this wonderful cruiser only from the movie "Moonzund". smile
    1. +13
      2 December 2018 10: 45
      Moonsund has a completely different ship. Also a milestone, high-speed, but completely different ... Destroyer "Novik"
    2. +4
      2 December 2018 11: 27
      The movie "Moonsund" shows the destroyer "Novik", it is a completely different ship.
      1. +4
        2 December 2018 12: 32
        While writing, I didn’t see the Sailor’s comment, otherwise I wouldn’t, or would scribble with details wink
        For Victor, knowledge of history is a gain, your mistake is an occasion to enhance your knowledge, with respect hi
        1. +7
          2 December 2018 14: 28
          Quote: volodimer
          For Victor, knowledge of history is a gain, your mistake is a reason to tighten your knowledge

          Without any doubt. If a person comes with the desire to learn something new, then, regardless of his current level of knowledge, I will always be happy to help him, answering the simplest questions. Thank you for doing this for me. hi
          1. +3
            2 December 2018 14: 43
            They are always ready for, because the more people know the story, the more they will be able to pass on knowledge and interest in it to their children.
      2. 0
        4 December 2018 22: 26
        Quote: volodimer
        The movie "Moonsund" shows the destroyer "Novik", it is a completely different ship.

        10 years of progress.
  6. +2
    2 December 2018 10: 35
    The new cycle is bravo.
    "Novik" is perhaps my favorite cruiser of that time. But he drew information about him from articles in the magazines "Shipbuilding" and "Gangut" and fragmentary references in fiction. Hope the author fills in all the blanks on this glorious ship. Interestingly, the topic of rank 2 cruisers has been studied very little and I would like the respected author to touch on his classmates as well.
  7. +6
    2 December 2018 10: 54

    Wait!
    Very interesting topic, dear colleague.
    Of course, Sergei Yulievich gave a strong boost to the domestic fleet, but it should be noted that the admirals also drained a lot of opportunities even in the available funding. (Libau base, construction of battleships at the Black Sea Fleet, "Almaz".) By the way, about "Almaz", the fact that the drawings of "Novik" were not ready is understandable. But could a more adequate ship be built?
    In general, I have a suspicion that it was necessary to build something between the six-thousanders and pebbles. A kind of Russian Elsvik, just in a slightly stronger hull, a little more seaworthy, not so re-armed, and there are many more like that, when as a result something quite unlike the Kasagi appears, which I had in mind as a prototype.
    1. +3
      2 December 2018 11: 53
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      In general, I have a suspicion that it was necessary to build something between the six-thousanders and pebbles. A kind of Russian Elsvik, just in a slightly stronger hull, a little more seaworthy, not so re-armed, and there are many more like that, when as a result something quite unlike the Kasagi appears, which I had in mind as a prototype.

      laughing So after all, the "six-thousanders" starting with the "Varyag" ("goddesses" do not count) were intended to oppose the Japanese "Elsviks" such as "Takasago".
      According to the tactical and technical elements of the Varyag, Askold and Bogatyr type cruisers, they were significantly superior to the Diana type ships and most armored cruisers of foreign fleets. However, these elements, based on a contradictory assessment of the experience of using cruisers in the Sino-Japanese war and on the best achievements in speed, proved to be disadvantageous from the operational-tactical point of view and did not take into account world progress in cruising. With a relatively large size, Russian cruisers of the 1st rank received weak hull protection (armored deck with slopes 60-70 mm thick), which did not provide sufficient combat stability in a squadron battle.

      Perseverance P.P. Tyrtova, the Russian fleet was obliged to purchase the most successful cruiser of the 1895 program - the Bayan, built in 1898-1903. in France. When developing a task for its design in May 1897. the head of the ministry proposed a meeting of authoritative admirals and engineers (KP Pilkin, IM Dikov, SO O. Makarov, AS Krotkov, NE Kuteinikov and others) to proceed from the position that “cruisers should they will carry out reconnaissance service at the squadron, without ceasing to be fighting ships. ” The requirement "to act in battle in connection with squadron battleships" 56 was expressed in the reliable protection of the corps and the main artillery.

      However, the "Bayan" remained the only one of its kind, since for the program of 1898 most of the admirals chose an armored reconnaissance cruiser with a smaller displacement, but with a higher speed. In the "Program for the design of a cruiser up to 6000 tonnes of displacement", drawn up by the ITC in March 1898 and proposed for an international competition, a 23-knot speed was set for a 12-hour continuous test. Armament consisted of twelve 6 "and 75mm guns, six 47mm rapid-fire guns and six mine vehicles.

      This is how the armored reconnaissance cruiser was replaced by unarmored "six-thousanders", which in real combat could still compete with their protégés in the form of Japanese "Elsviks", but already lost in combat stability to the heavier "Asamoids". Those. the Russians chose the "best defense is speed" option. And if the German "Askold" and "Bogatyr" still gave their 23 knots, then the domestic clones of the "Bogatyr" ran with standard 20,5-21,5 knots, which fundamentally contradicted the concept of using this type.
      Unlike the excellent "Novik"
      1. +4
        2 December 2018 12: 07
        Unlike the excellent "Novik"

        God be with you, sir :) "Beautiful Novik" lagged behind "Askold" in the ZhM (they gave 20 knots and they lagged behind), and could not escape from "Tsushima" at the Korsakov post (the same 20 knots). The usual story with overpowered cars, the maximum speed is only on tests. By the way, no one saw the design 24 nodes from the "pebbles" either.
        Novik's problem was that he was the only one. The commanders twitched him constantly not letting the machine go over
        1. +3
          2 December 2018 12: 15
          So after all
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          The "Beautiful Novik" lagged behind "Askold" in the ZhM (they gave 20 knots and they lagged behind), and could not escape from the "Tsushima" at the Korsakov post (the same 20 knots).

          it turned out
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          His command pulled constantly not allowing the machine to sort out

          wink smile
          for
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          he was so alone

          drinks
          Moral - they themselves killed the CMU of the ship, and then we complain that this is not this for us and this is not that drinks
          In a sad way, the fate of the cruiser was affected by the 40-minute readiness, in which the ship was in late May at the request of the headquarters. She not only exhausted the personnel, but also did not allow to carry out any serious work in the cars. It is no coincidence that it was from this circumstance that MFFon Schulz began his report on the last days of the Novik service. Even on the eve of the departure to sea already decided by Rear Admiral V.K. Vitgeft, the cruiser fired at the coast. As a result, the personnel did not manage to take 80 tons of coal to the full volume.

          hi
          1. +1
            2 December 2018 12: 38
            To your discussion: "In general, I have a suspicion that it was necessary to build something in between six-thousanders and pebbles."
            Russian "Elswick" ... Directly TK for Andrey's new article wink
          2. 0
            2 December 2018 16: 15
            The costs of domestic operation of equipment and its combat use are of course obvious ... I believe the admirals of the RIF should not have illusions about the qualification of machine commands and the conditions for basing on the Far East. This is not the Baltic, where serious plants are nearby ...
            However, the initial concept of high-speed 3kt BPCR is quite controversial, and even 6kt is generally stupid!
            Combat experience has shown that "armored" vessels with a stake on speed are very vulnerable - the break of the OFS near the side and flooding began, as a result of the loss of speed and the impossibility of separation from the enemy request
            And the point in the scout - if he does not come close to the enemy, and if he comes - then the probability of accidentally catching 1-2 hits is high!
            Was such a chain difficult to link? bully Maybe there was simply no one to generalize experience (military and technical) and develop TTZ? There was no naval general staff, and some admirals were carried away by God. He knows what - from saving, to icebreakers ... feel
            1. 0
              2 December 2018 22: 21
              Admiral Stepan M. Osipovich had different views from yours ... And his authority is even strong now .. The development of the Navy, and even more so where the money will go ....
              Here, not every admiral is given the right to guess priorities (Kuznetsov wanted aircraft carriers .. And Khrushchev .. no), but to us in this case.
              MTK, for all its bone, was not completely dumb, and:
              "The point is in a scout - if he does not come close to the enemy, and once he does, then the probability of accidentally catching 1-2 hits is high!"
              so the crank deck of the armored cruiser completely solved this problem
              1. +1
                3 December 2018 10: 56
                1) This is normal - each thinking person has his own views bully
                2) The authority of COM is based on its PR ... I don’t know its real achievements in the PA, but there are enough failures ... request
                3) Admiral Kuznetsov was right and the USSR came to his opinion in a very complicated and costly way ... bully
                4) The karpasnaya deck protected the CMU, however, not from damage to the side, but, accordingly, flooding of the compartments and loss of course ... are you ready to challenge? bully
            2. +1
              3 December 2018 19: 34
              Quote: ser56
              Combat experience has shown that "armored" vessels with a stake on speed are very vulnerable - the break of the OFS near the side and flooding began, as a result of the loss of speed and the impossibility of separation from the enemy

              Pomnitz, the British pointed out another drawback of "car covers" of small displacement BpKR - low seaworthiness and a sharper drop in speed with increasing waves. According to their calculations, the same "Novik" in the real conditions of the open sea could not get away from the "cress-like" BrKR.
              However, with all the declarative rejection of the "newcomers", the limes themselves immediately ordered for themselves the same "covers for cars" - "scouts".
              1. Alf
                +1
                3 December 2018 21: 55
                Quote: Alexey RA
                However, with all the declarative rejection of the "newcomers", the limes themselves immediately ordered for themselves the same "covers for cars" - "scouts".

                Well, the nation of seafarers could not admit that they were bypassed by Russian land barbarians ...
              2. 0
                4 December 2018 14: 41
                development led to the appearance of armor in scouts ...
            3. 0
              5 December 2018 22: 56
              However, the initial concept of high-speed 3kt BPCR is quite controversial, and even 6kt is generally stupid!

              Sergey, you pull at least the experience of WWI on the realities of the late XIX - early XX century.
              Do not forget that the firing ranges of the main gun at the time of issuing the technical task were 15-30 kbt. In the REV, 40-45 kbt, at which clashes of the main forces took place, were almost outrageous.
              So, the concept of Russian armored decks of 3000-6000 tons was quite justified at that time: the detection range of cruiser and armadillo ships (3k-10k tons) under average visibility conditions is 50-70 kbt, which is several times higher than the firing range assumed at the beginning of the XNUMXth century .
              1. 0
                6 December 2018 12: 34
                and where does the range? The main thing is the appearance of effective OFS with BB! Those. defeat of an unarmored side with an explosion and splinters!
        2. +6
          2 December 2018 12: 43
          Well, being in constant readiness for 40 minutes to exit to cars and boilers is clearly not favorable. And by the beginning of the war, according to the recollections of Lieutenant Shter, Novik demanded that the boiler tubes be replaced that there was nothing done. As a result, after a breakthrough of 12 boilers, a third failed. The fact that Novik with such an intense service gave out 20+ nodes is simply a miracle !!! And of course, the reliability of German cars
        3. +1
          2 December 2018 13: 21
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          Novik's problem was that he was the only one.

          ==========
          Well, why is there "one such" .... In the Port Arthur squadron there was also "Boyarin" - also a second-rank second-class cruiser, only of a different project (Danish construction "Burmeister og Vine") .... True, "Boyarin" died in the first days of the war ... But before that - it performed the same functions as "Novik".
          1. 0
            2 December 2018 14: 34
            Yes, there was a "Boyarin", but its maximum speed at the delivery of 22,5 knots, in Port Arthur conditions at the beginning of the war it was at best 20, and with such service for a battle in the yellow sea (if I lived before) on the strength of 18.
            The service of ships in the Pacific Ocean greatly deprived the power and reliability of the ship's ships, since there was no high-quality repair there.
            About "Boyarin", I think Andrey will also write ...
            The first article, and how many caring ... Andrey raised a very important topic.
            1. +3
              2 December 2018 15: 12
              in Port Arthur, at the beginning of the war, it was 20 at best, and with such a service, it would have been 18 to fight in the yellow sea (if I had lived before).

              I don’t think it’s that bad. "Boyarin" was initially stronger, the CMU was not so forced, even the boilers and those - Belvili. Well, if they shared the service in half with the Novik, it would be possible for both to keep the machines in working order.
              1. +1
                2 December 2018 18: 55
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                Well, if they shared the service in half with the Novik, it would be possible for both to keep the machines in working order.

                In fact, the Russians expected a war with Japan not earlier than 05, therefore, having embodied at least what was being built into dreams, RI would have had 4 cruisers of the 2nd rank in Arthur - "Novik itself, its" improved clones " Emerald "with" Pearl "and" Boyarin ". Then it would be easy to keep one ship under repair without damage to the squadron hi
              2. +1
                2 December 2018 20: 04
                Perhaps yes, and as a result, "Boyarin" would have sank to only 20 knots, then the mediocre loss of such a ship is almost a crime.
                And the whole story of the REV, it seems, is a mixture of heroism and crime.
                1. +1
                  2 December 2018 20: 09
                  "Boyarin", this ... we will leave it to the author, his opinion will be the basis for discussion
            2. 0
              2 December 2018 20: 32
              Quote: volodimer
              Yes, there was a "Boyarin", but its maximum speed at the delivery of 22,5 knots, in Port Arthur conditions at the beginning of the war it was at best 20, and with such service for a battle in the yellow sea (if I lived before) on the strength of 18.

              what
              If we take the passport data, then the speed of 22,5 knots "Boyarin" is completely worthless. Yes From all Japanese cruisers, only the "dogs" - "Takasago" (22,5 knots / force 22,9 knots), "Kassagi" with "Chitose" (22,5 knots / force 22,8 and 22,7, respectively) were close. .), "Iosino" (23 / 23,4uz). So close reconnaissance at the squadron allowed "Boyarin" to safely move away from all other Japanese cruisers. At the time, the detected and identified "dogs" Virgo, in fact, were also not a threat, because in a short period of time it is not realistic to overtake an almost similar walker, unless, due to weather reasons or the commander's bungling, he himself is at an accessible distance for 203mm guns. It was unrealistic to check this assumption due to the same criminal bungling of the "Boyarin" commander Sarychev, "thanks" to which the cruiser's service was short and absolutely harmless to the enemy ...
              So at the beginning of the military campaign, the ships could, in principle, provide speeds close to the passport ones (with the exception of the Varyag), which could decrease depending on the load and the quality of the required service. And since the differences between passport and real speeds also apply to the enemy, then another question is whether the Japanese ships gave passport speeds wink hi
              1. 0
                2 December 2018 21: 33
                Andrey, in his analysis of the Varyag, gives a drop in the speed of the Japanese of about 2 knots at least from the passport ones, actually more, as well as for our cruisers, I would like ours to be smaller, the Japanese to a greater, but there is still the quality of coal ... Cardiff or not very ... and the speed also depended on it ...
                1. +2
                  2 December 2018 21: 57
                  Quote: volodimer
                  I wanted our smaller, the Japanese large, but there is still a quality of coal ... Cardiff or not really ... but the speed from this too ... was very dependent

                  In addition to the quality of coal, there are many other factors that influence speed. Yes
                  Qualification of both quality workers and mechanics servicing machines. Fouling of the underwater body. Water quality for boilers ... Too lazy to dig specifically smile
                  Yes, and the author, in terms of achieving passport speed, I also agree, because it is one thing to squeeze the maximum out of cars to achieve contract speed, and it is another thing to achieve this speed without speeding. Then, in case of a critical situation, an additional speed knot will be a pleasant bonus for the ship's team.
                  But it is, the lyrics.
                  Somewhere in the attic I have a book "The Heart of the Ship", a Soviet-era publication. There, albeit without many-page mathematical calculations, but it is quite understandable and accessible, the development of power plants of ships is described, starting with the first steam engines and boilers, ending with different KODAGs and atomic reactors there. Therefore, believe me - the quality of coal (or what kind of fuel there) is only a tiny part of the factors influencing the achievement of the speed of a particular ship.
                  I have a fanatical fascination with the history of the fleet has long passed by virtue of age, and articles on the RJV of the same Andrey from Chelyabinsk or other authors give pleasant pleasure from the memories of a favorite period, as well as allow you to recall again what I once looked with excitement- read and studied winked smile
                  Yes, and in the Age of Internet there are additional materials that allow, if not to refresh the memory, then take a different look at established things. For that, thanks again to both the authors and the forum users hi
                  1. Alf
                    +1
                    2 December 2018 22: 17
                    Quote: Rurikovich
                    for it’s one thing to squeeze the most out of machines to achieve contract speed,

                    Not in vain, in Britain, the phrase “Prepare graphite and beer” was used at the acceptance tests. Graphite for lining, beer for a stoker.
                  2. +2
                    4 December 2018 22: 45
                    Quote: Rurikovich
                    In addition to the quality of coal, there are many other factors that influence the speed.

                    judging by the information (Edition of the Department of Customs Fees. St. Petersburg, 1914. P.9)
                    thousand pounds of coal were delivered to the Republic of Ingushetia during the war.
                    1904 - 201564, (35648 coke)
                    1905 - 226128, (26662 coke)
                    It was mainly a British cardiff (until Donetsk cheap anthracite was still far away) cardiff coal - smokeless with maximum combustion and heat dissipation.
                    As for water quality, you can also write a lot of things (fresh fresh hatred, the amount of salts is different), the quality of machines / boilers / qualifications / wear and more ..
                    in general, speed consists of many parameters.
                    All the same, the main advantage of Novik was speed and it was exploited mercilessly.
            3. 0
              5 December 2018 23: 04
              The first article, and how many caring ... Andrey raised a very important topic.

              Andrei's articles do not leave anyone indifferent to the history of the fleet indifferent.
              For this, our great gratitude and reader's love to him! And a bunch of pluses for the article.
              PS It's time to publish everything published on this site as a separate collection. I would definitely try to get such a book in my library.
      2. +1
        2 December 2018 13: 53
        Quote: Rurikovich
        And if the German "Askold" and "Bogatyr" still gave their 23 knots

        =========
        Well, if we are to be honest to the end, then "Askold" - and in general everything is on tests 24.5 node issued !!!
    2. +3
      2 December 2018 14: 16
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      In general, I have a suspicion that it was necessary to build something between the six-thousanders and pebbles. A kind of Russian Elsvik, just in a slightly stronger hull, a little more seaworthy, not so re-armed, and there are many more like that, when as a result something quite unlike the Kasagi appears, which I had in mind as a prototype.

      As AIshnik AIshniku ​​say - think right, colleague laughing I thought about it myself, and even sketched out some nice options, but all hands never reach publishing ...
    3. +4
      2 December 2018 14: 30
      Greetings, dear Ivan!
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      Of course, Sergey Yulievich tightly podkumil to the domestic fleet, however, it should be noted that the admirals dried out a lot of opportunities, even with the available funding.

      This is certainly, no doubt.
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      In general, I have a suspicion that it was necessary to build a cross between six-thousanders and pebbles.

      In many ways I agree with this point of view
      1. +1
        2 December 2018 19: 34
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        In many ways I agree with this point of view

        So it Crump and offered the option "Kassagi" wink feel
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        In general, I have a suspicion that it was necessary to build a cross between six-thousanders and pebbles.
    4. 0
      2 December 2018 16: 38
      Greetings dear colleague Art. sailor.
      ... it was necessary to build something between six-thousanders and pebbles

      This was often / shyroko discussed, but how to get profit against the same displacement of the Japanese is the question (to you, not to a "special meeting")))
      A kind of Russian elsvik, just in a slightly stronger case, a little more seaworthy, not so re-equipped ...

      Eti "slightly" - to "Elsvik" or to Novik?
    5. 0
      2 December 2018 17: 35
      Of course, Sergei Yulievich tightly podsumil domestic fleet ..

      But but! Hands off Witte. What would he be the Minister of Finance, if he gave money to everyone and everyone. First give the sailors, then the warriors. And there are banks and railways and industry and culture. But the treasury is not rubber and not very large ...))
      1. +1
        2 December 2018 17: 48
        What would he be the Minister of Finance, if he gave money to everyone and everyone.

        I agree, but the admirals, since they managed to determine exactly when Japan would attack, they could have defined priorities (say battleships), and not want (as always with the military) "more of everything." After all, there are two options - (a) 150 miles. before 1903 or (b) 200mil. before 1905 - do not contradict each other, that is, there should be "a" и "b".
  8. BAI
    0
    2 December 2018 11: 57
    The fighting in Port Arthur made Novik a famous and famous ship in Russia,

    In my opinion, the name "Novik" became famous thanks to the destroyer.
    1. +3
      2 December 2018 12: 05
      No.
      Destroyer named after Arthur cruiser Yes , which is sometimes called the "Sakhalin" Varyag " smile
      1. +1
        2 December 2018 12: 52
        You are right, and the destroyer was named "in honor" and for contemporaries it was obvious, but for those who grew up in the USSR, where RYaV was not the most studied page in history. About which, apart from Lenin's statement that it led to the revolution, they did not particularly remember ...
        "Yakov Sverdlov" is "Novik" and in the opposite direction ... And the cruiser, well, it's very far ...
        To the book of Melnikov wink I, a resident of Vladivostok, did not know much about this war, except for the feat of the "Varyag" and the fact that Russia lost this war.
        Therefore, we will forgive the person for ignorance, and we will be glad that he is in VO, where they will tell everything smile
        1. +1
          2 December 2018 12: 59
          Novikov-Priboy hit me at the same time as Melnikov, and Pikul with his "Cruiser", fortunately, later. Cello under the bow "Asama" ...
        2. 0
          2 December 2018 14: 10
          Quote: volodimer
          I, a resident of Vladivostok, did not know anything about this war, except for the feat of the "Varyag" and the fact that Russia had lost this war.

          ==========
          So SO interested in the history of the fleet ...... For example, I live from Vlad, oh-h-h-h-d, DARK, and also studied in the Soviet school .... But about Russian-Japanese (and I'm not alone, my friends too!) knew a lot) !!! And BEFORE Melnikov (with whom he had the opportunity to be personally acquainted), literature on this topic - ENOUGH !!! Who WANTED - FIND!!! And don't blame everything on the "Marxist-Leninist ideology" !!! wassat
          1. +1
            2 December 2018 20: 45
            I am sincerely happy for you, but I didn’t even have enough literature .. In our seaside town, in the only library where, yes, there were !!!, the originals of the "Sea Collection" were cut and shredded by "readers" so that .... ... only the crusts remain.
            You personally spoke with Rafail Mikhailovich ... I envy ... again, not Vladivostok,
            You've had enough literature! ... Again, not Vladivostok ... It's not Peter here, with "Gangut" we don't have any publishing houses here .... Your Who WANTED - FIND !!! is a mockery!
            Nobody blamed on the "Marxist-Leninist ideology", if they noticed it, it was mentioned as one of the sources of information.
            1. 0
              5 December 2018 23: 14
              there was enough literature! ... again, not Vladivostok ... This is not Peter, with "Gangut"

              I found a book of the 2nd rank of Yegorov, "Actions of a detachment of Vladivostok cruisers in the RYAV", published in 1944 (!), In the library of a supernumerary military unit in Primorye.
              So, there was literature on the RYAV both before Melnikov, and before "Gangut", and not only in Moscow or St. Petersburg.
              You, most likely, were just unlucky or were not looking very hard.
      2. 0
        2 December 2018 16: 40
        Yes, it’s a great honor to self-flood.
  9. +1
    2 December 2018 12: 41
    Wow, as usual with the author - I have already read it, and on you: "to be continued .."
    Well, we will look forward to it !!
    1. 0
      2 December 2018 15: 42
      Quote: Turist1996
      Well, we will look forward to it !!

      Thank you :))) I will try to do as with the Varangian - one article per week :)
      1. 0
        3 December 2018 12: 50
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Thank you :))) I will try to do as with the Varangian - one article per week :)

        =======
        And "critical" remarks - HOW will you accept ?? So love Or so: angry ?? wink
        1. 0
          4 December 2018 07: 55
          Quote: venik
          And "critical" remarks - HOW will you accept ??

          And as usual, depending on their quality :)))) After all, if I was wrong, then in the following articles I state this directly and give a refutation of myself.
  10. +2
    2 December 2018 12: 54
    The article is very good !! But the author should be more careful, for example:
    ".... armored General Admiral and Duke of Edinburgh, the construction of which began in 1969 and 1972 years (???). respectively....". It is clear that" a mistake ", but still .....
    and then:
    "...... We must say right away that the ship turned out to be very unusual - neither during its design and laying, nor during its entry into service, Novik had no direct analogues in either the Russian or foreign navies .. ...."
    =======
    Och-h-chen DISPUTED statement !! It depends on what you perceive under "DIRECT ANALOGUE"??? An armored cruiser with a displacement of 3 tons with a cruising speed of 000 knots and a main caliber of 25 x 6 mm ?? Well then - yes! As far as I remember, the 120 mm caliber was used ONLY in the Russian Navy!
    In general, of course, there were analogs! For example, the same German b / n cruisers like "Gazelle" - the same 3 thousand tons, the speed is really only 22 knots, and the armament is different (though not much 10 x 105 mm versus 6-8 x 120 mm (8 was on " sisterships "Novik" - "Pearl" and "Emerald") and the tasks are the same: a light fast cruiser-reconnaissance and destroyer of trade .... Well, a kind of "destroyer leader" (if of course I can say that).
    Well, you can also recall the second-rank cruiser Boyarin, built at about the same time in Denmark for the Russian fleet, this is already a DIRECT analogue of Novik (only in speed it was slightly inferior ...
    Somewhere so....
    1. +1
      2 December 2018 14: 14
      Quote: venik
      As far as I remember, the 120 mm caliber was used ONLY in the Russian Navy!

      The roots of the 120 mm caliber SUDDENLY go to the British. EMNIP, the first medium-caliber rapid-fire guns, and were exactly 120-mm British. Later this caliber began to be used in Russia (where it came from Canet, but in France the 120 mm caliber did not stop), Italy, they were going to sort of develop 120 mm guns in Austria-Hungary, but they did not give the PMV collapse. It’s another matter that this caliber was not found everywhere, and therefore it seems that it was only with us - although in fact where was it with us? On three BWOs and rank II cruisers. And this, in fact, was all limited.
      1. +1
        2 December 2018 15: 21
        I would add that the Armstrong 120mm are standard armaments on elswicks and colonial gunboats.
        although in fact where was he with us? On three BWOs and rank II cruisers. And this, in fact, was all limited.

        Second SC on "Three Saints" and "Rurik"
        1. 0
          2 December 2018 15: 38
          And I forgot about these ...)) That is what it means for a long time I have not "updated" my knowledge of the fleet. Here you can also add our pre-dreadnoughts - there was a 120-mm secondary battery in service, but this is no longer quite RYA. Plus, after RYAV, as I already remembered, Kane's 120-mm cannons seemed to have managed to install on several mine cruisers ...
          1. 0
            2 December 2018 18: 43
            Seems in the stern of the Volunteers.
            In principle, Arthur would be very kosher. I would have seen how the Japanese destroys chased after them :)
      2. +1
        3 December 2018 13: 19
        Quote: arturpraetor
        Later this caliber began to be used in Russia (from where it came from Canet, but in France

        ========
        Was wrong!!! "Got hot"! As you correctly noted, it was quite rare !! Hence the "delusion" ...
        ------
        Quote: arturpraetor
        although in fact where was he with us? On three BWOs and rank II cruisers. And this, in fact, was all limited.

        =========
        And here you are mistaken !!!!! And - MUCH wrong!
        "..... These guns were armed with battleships of the types" Andrew the First-Called "(2 units)," Emperor Alexander II "," Three Saints ", battleships of the coastal defense of the type" Admiral Senyavin "(3 units). They were also armed with armored cruisers "Rurik", "Dmitry Donskoy", "Vladimir Monomakh", armored cruisers of the "Pearl" type (2 units), "Novik", "Boyarin", "Almaz", gunboats of the "Gilyak II" types (4 units) and " Kars "(2 units), destroyers of the type" Lieutenant Shestakov "[1], as well as the Argentine battleship" Almirante Brown "[3]. In addition, they were used as coastal defense weapons. Cannons were used in the Russo-Japanese, World War I, Civil War . ..... "
        Regards, venik! hi
    2. 0
      2 December 2018 14: 22
      Quote: venik
      the construction of which began in 1969 and 1972 (???). respectively...."

      Yes, thanks, I will unsubscribe to the moderators to correct
      Quote: venik
      Very-ch-Chen DISPUTED statement !!

      Absolutely undeniable :)))
      Quote: venik
      In general, of course, there were analogues!

      Did not have. In those years, of course, many countries "dabbled" in second-ranked armored cruisers, but almost all of them were intended not for service with squadrons, but for the war on communications - But even those who created them, including for service with squadrons, "did not bother "high speed.
      The defining characteristics of Novik are low displacement, high speed with the secondary nature of combat elements in relation to the aforementioned. There was nothing like this in other countries.
      Quote: venik
      For example, the same German b / n cruisers like "Gazelle" - the same 3 thousand tons, the speed is really only 22 knots,

      This is "all" and does not allow Gazelle to be considered an analogue of Novik. In addition, you were a little mistaken - not 22, but only 21,5 knots. But at the same time you forgot one more important aspect - abroad the maximum speed was indicated when forcing vehicles, but for the domestic fleet the maximum speed was defined as the maximum without afterburner. So Novik nevertheless developed 25 knots without afterburner, and the ships of the Gazelle type mentioned by you - only 19,5 knots. Such is the "analogue" Yes
      Quote: venik
      Well, you can also recall the second-rank cruiser Boyarin, built at about the same time in Denmark for the Russian Navy - this is already a DIRECT analogue of Novik

      (a heavy sigh) Boyarin was built not "sometime at this time", but LATE Novik, came into operation roughly a year later, but most importantly - it was created on the instructions of "Novik", which, alas, the Danes could not cope with. The decision to build a cruiser is a political one, and in any case it should be considered already as a follower of Novik, but in no way an analogue to him
      1. +2
        2 December 2018 14: 52
        Um ... And the Italian cruisers Agordat and Kaotit 1500 tons of 12-76mm 23 knots?
        1. 0
          2 December 2018 15: 47
          Quote: Nehist
          And the Italian cruisers Agordat and Kaotit 1500 tons 12-76mm 23 nodes?

          Strictly speaking, 1 tons is no longer a cruiser, but something else, especially since the ships you named had even less - 500 -1 tons of displacement. In the Italian fleet itself, they were listed as mine cruisers, that is, they should be compared only with our "Abrek" :))) And their speed - 292-1 knots, apparently, was also achieved only with afterburner (but this is not certain!)
          1. +1
            2 December 2018 16: 01
            By the way, these two troughs are very curious - they could act as leaders of destroyers, and as mine cruisers (in their original function as a naval destroyer of destroyers off the enemy coast), and actually they had seaworthiness for ships of their class, with permission to say outstanding. And, finally, such a ship is not shameful to be sent to the colony ... As I said, it’s very interesting ships.
            1. +1
              2 December 2018 16: 11
              Quote: arturpraetor
              By the way, these two troughs are very curious.

              On only one condition, dear colleague, that they could develop their 22-23 nodes on a natural draft. If not, then the leader of the destroyers can’t talk anymore, but what else is the sniff with weapons from 76-mm guns suitable for?
              1. +1
                2 December 2018 16: 17
                Destroyers, dear colleague, it is destroyers. Even according to the passport, they rarely had more than 21 nodes at that time, and add possible excitement and some kind of "everyday" wear and tear of mechanisms (in light fast ships, as I recall, it was generally more common than on large "slow" ships) - 22- 23 knots, even when forcing, become quite high speed.
                1. 0
                  2 December 2018 18: 43
                  Quote: arturpraetor
                  Torpedo boats, dear colleague, are torpedo boats. According to the passport, they rarely had more than 21 nodes at that time.

                  Which, dear Artem? They were built in Italy at the end of the 19 century, as many as 2 pieces were built, both of which were designed for the 26 nodal move (though it reached only one). True, the descendants of the Caesars bought destroyers in England in commercial quantities, but even those starting from 1880- x's speed was 26 nodes - 76YA, for example
                  1. +2
                    2 December 2018 19: 00
                    Um, colleague, I'm talking about a spherical situation in a vacuum, i.e. a ship of the Akordata type and designated destroyers of any fleet in the world hi Specifically in Italy, he was definitely not considered a leader, from what I know - he was a colonial cruiser with the possible function of a mine cruiser, to hunt for French or someone else's destroyers off the enemy shores to protect their battleships. However, in the role of the leader of destroyers, such a ship would look very good, if it was a cruiser, for example, a Russian one (our destroyers, I think they know how much they squeezed in most cases), or a French one (most of the destroyers, despite the high passport data, more than 21 knots were given seldom). Although, the stump is clear, this is not an analogue of Novik. By the way, the ship is by no means unique - EMNIP, something similar was built by the British (I can't remember the type of cruisers offhand), only they had a pure "colonialist" with low speed and three-inch guns, while the Italians built a slightly more functional ship.

                    Well and yes - the passport maximum speed of destroyers, dear colleague, personally interests me last of all. It really hurt to see a lot of things on this subject, it seems like with moderate excitement the 25-nodal destroyer cannot catch up with the 18-nodal battleship during exercises (EMNIP, France, but I don’t remember the source now). In fact, all these small destroyers could only give out passport characteristics under an ideal set of circumstances, and it’s not a fact - too light hulls and cars quickly wear out even without active use at high speeds, and there’s no getting around it at that time, alas request Therefore, both for the leader of destroyers and for mine cruisers (whose main function is to deal with destroyers on the high seas), it is much more important not to have a passport maximum speed, but the ability to maintain relatively high speed in the high seas in the area of ​​the 20-21 hub, and these are already 1890- x years - in 1880, as I recall, 18-19 nodes were already considered sufficient speed, although the stump is clear this is the case when there are few nodes.
                    1. +3
                      2 December 2018 19: 18
                      Quote: arturpraetor
                      Um, colleague, I'm talking about a spherical situation in a vacuum

                      Uuuh I get it:)))
                      Quote: arturpraetor
                      Well and yes - the passport maximum speed of destroyers, dear colleague, personally interests me last of all. It really hurt to see a lot of things on this subject, it seems like with moderate excitement the 25-nodal destroyer cannot catch up with the 18-nodal battleship during exercises (EMNIP, France, but I don’t remember the source now)

                      In my opinion (and I'm sure by 99,9%!) - also France, but for the life of me I don't remember where :))))) In general, dear colleague, if we abstract from the current one and turn to the theoretical, then I don’t see no point in leading the destroyers. In my perception, this is a purely nighttime tool, because with their "speed" they can only expect to get closer to the enemy at this time. On the other hand, the support of a mine cruiser can help at night (if we encounter enemy destroyers), but nevertheless it rather unmasks them - nevertheless, the silhouette is more detailed. And in the daytime it is better for them to stay near their main forces, otherwise they will hurt you for a great life :))))) It's okay if they stumbled upon enemy destroyers, but if they ran into cruisers? In general, I agree with you that the Italian can lead the destroyers, but I doubt that it is generally advisable
                      1. +1
                        2 December 2018 19: 25
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In general, dear colleague, if we ignore the current and turn to the theoretical, then I do not see any reason to lead the destroyers.

                        So am I, but we are corrupted by afterlife laughing And at that time, EMNIP, there were certain theories and thoughts that if the destroyers were to lead something fatter than usual (by mine cruisers, for example), then their effectiveness would increase. No, it most likely is, but here you know how to understand the varieties of certain substances - which is so ineffective, that way .... A little more efficient wassat Although in practice, this theory was already being implemented when the destroyers were a thing of the past.
                      2. 0
                        3 December 2018 11: 03
                        maybe a small displacement played a role, and therefore instrumentation MN? It's like a fighter distillation after a bomber ...
                      3. 0
                        3 December 2018 13: 08
                        No, the lead of the destroyers was considered something fatter as only a qualitative strengthening of the weak, but numerous combat units. For destroyers alone, a meeting "in an open field" with a destroyer or a mine cruiser threatened serious problems, and the battle "destroyers against destroyers" was possible, which immediately disrupted the attack. In this case, support in the form of another mine cruiser could bind the enemy's light forces in battle and allow the destroyers to work on the enemy. Another thing is that in daytime the destroyers showed themselves, let's say, not very well, and at night in the attack it is generally better not to shine once again, and not to drag the "big brother" with you, but we already know this post factum, and then ...
                      4. 0
                        3 December 2018 12: 18
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        if we ignore the current and turn to the theoretical, then I do not see any reason to lead the destroyers


                        Dear Andrey. If you pay attention to the period from 1890 to 1895, you will notice that in the exercises in the Navy of France, Russia and England for the near reconnaissance, destroyer squads and mine cruisers were used. The Vice Admiral N.I. Cossacks, was a supporter of this type of intelligence. In 1895, after reviewing the exercises conducted over the years, they came to the conclusion;

                        "...... as a rule, the conclusion is confirmed that the most efficient use of a torpedo ship in a war will be limited within its scope. Therefore, the need to combine torpedo ships with other, larger classes for reconnaissance and detection of the enemy - where accurate information about his position cannot be obtained by other means is obvious...... "1895

                        Such cruisers include the "Gazelle" type, "Pelorus", an obvious failure of the British, the "D'Estre" type. The cruiser "Novik" surpasses them, but here it is worth considering the year of the bookmark and technical progress.
              2. 0
                3 December 2018 06: 43
                Dear Andrei, you will not believe it, but after the REV, the British ordered as many as four companies to develop scouts at the squadron, two ships carried just the same weapons. The truth was true, the speed was 4-25 knots. They gave those tasks only for displacement and speed, otherwise the developers were free in their fantasies. It is worth recognizing that the experience was unsuccessful :)
                1. 0
                  3 December 2018 09: 40
                  Quote: Nehist
                  Dear Andrei, you will not believe it, but after the REV the British ordered 4 companies to develop reconnaissance reconnaissance squadrons

                  I agree, only something worthless turned out
    3. +3
      2 December 2018 14: 26
      As far as I remember, the 120 mm caliber was used ONLY in the Russian Navy!

      Complementing a colleague arturpraetor- massively and in the Japanese Navy (English), in that very war (for cruisers) and after it, like a mine mine on armadillos.
      1. +2
        2 December 2018 14: 32
        Heaven and sea, about the most obvious - the Japs - I forgot wassat Thank you for reminding me. In the Japanese, the use of 120-mm artillery surpassed, in my opinion, both the British and ours during the days of the REV.
        1. 0
          2 December 2018 16: 01
          And on our Gangut-class dreadnoughts?
          1. 0
            2 December 2018 16: 03
            I have already unsubscribed above - sclerosis takes its toll)) But in general I talked about the times of the RYAV, and "Gangut" is a little later.
  11. +1
    2 December 2018 14: 49
    Wow, the sweetie pulled up. But I am still reading and comprehending the Varyag for the final comment.
  12. 0
    2 December 2018 15: 07
    +++ A great start from Andrei (tm))) Many questions that I had before, mainly about the need for such ships in such a large amount, were considered in detail. Yes, and as a colleague Rurikovich writes - Favorite topic, favorite time ...
    Uv. Andrey, could you consider in more detail what the "calculations" of most admirals were based on about the need to have one at a time such a cruiser for every battleship!?! After all, the latter are fighting sluggishly. Individual "reconnaissance" for each battleship?)) At that time there was no talk at all about protection from destroyers. In this regard, the opinion of Makarov seems to me healthy, as well as the General-Admiral (who is accepted only ...), although perhaps he has already gone to the other extreme (completely without such).
    It is also not entirely clear what cruisers can scout who must run away from (almost) every enemy.
    I look forward to continuing.
    The “armless ship”, according to S. O. Makarov, was supposed to be armored...

    Probably a mistake.
    1. +2
      2 December 2018 15: 52
      Quote: anzar
      Probably a mistake.

      Oddly enough - no, Makarov wanted armored ships, and not armless at all :)))
      Quote: anzar
      Uv. Andrey, couldn’t you consider in more detail what the "calculations" of most admirals were based on about the need to have one such cruiser for each battleship!?!

      Dear colleague, honestly - I would like to know myself :))))))) There are some speculations, but it’s just like speculation, not facts.
      Recall that the Japanese had roughly 15 armored cruisers - and all were in action. In our case, the squadron was obtained by the decision of the Special Meeting of the 20 armored cruisers (large and small) and 16 - after clarification. That is, if you take it purely for reconnaissance, then yes, it’s strange, but if for all tasks armored cruisers, then it’s not very much.
      1. 0
        2 December 2018 16: 26
        Makarov wanted armored ships ...

        Not familiar, always, or only in this case? Why then were "armless" called?
        ... and if for all tasks of armored cruisers, it seems to be not very much.

        But the performance characteristics of these "scouts" were not suitable "for all tasks ...". And Makarov is right - "pure" intelligence is not so important (before radio)
        1. 0
          2 December 2018 17: 07
          Quote: anzar
          But the performance characteristics of these "scouts" were not suitable "for all tasks ...".

          I totally agree. But ... in general, I am going to thoroughly discuss this topic in the articles of the cycle :))))
    2. +1
      2 December 2018 19: 46
      Quote: anzar
      what were the "calculations" of the majority of admirals based on the need to have one such cruiser for each battleship!?! After all, the latter are fighting sluggishly. Individual "reconnaissance" for each battleship?)) At that time, there was no talk at all about protection from destroyers

      smile
      After preliminary discussion, the new plans for the construction of the Russian fleet were put forward for a special meeting held in St. Petersburg on December 27, 1897, under the chairmanship of Admiral General. The meeting was attended by Vice Admirals P.P. Tyrtov-manager of the Ministry of the Sea, V.P. Verkhovsky, N.M. Kaznakov, I.M. Dikov, S.P. Dikov, S.P. Tyrtov, S.O. Makarov, F.K. Avelan and E.N. Alekseev. Based on the provision that “our fleet should be slightly stronger than the Japanese one, so that in the event of a collision it should be capable of active activity”, the 37th meeting recommended that by 1903, 10 squadron battleships, 5 armored cruisers, 10 reconnaissance cruisers should be concentrated in the Pacific with a displacement of 5-6 thousand tons, 10 cruisers of the 3rd class, 2-2,5 thousand tons each, one or two mine vehicles of 8 thousand tons each (carriers of destroyers), two mine loaders and 36 destroyers - destroyers (part the latter could be replaced by destroyers). To achieve the specified composition in a special program "For the needs of the Far East" in 1898-1902. It was necessary to build 5 squadron battleships, 5 cruisers of the 1st rank and other ships.

      If you want to fully read where this paragraph comes from, here is the link. There chapter II is on this topic.
      http://keu-ocr.narod.ru/Gribovsky/part1.html
      hi
  13. +1
    2 December 2018 16: 21
    Author Respect for choosing a topic - an interesting ship! Both technically and conceptually (a mistake is also an experience), and with rich combat experience, and the guns continued to work even after the death of the ship!
    I’ll note one point - Witte could have deliberately provoked defeat on the basis of his political views - I had this opinion after reading his memoirs, and I achieved my own manifesto in 1905 ... recourse
  14. +2
    2 December 2018 16: 28
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    but for the domestic fleet, the maximum speed was determined as a maximum without afterburner.

    This is a very important point that is often forgotten ... bully The problem is that forcing steam engines was possible to varying degrees at different times - so the topic is quite complicated, but the question is 1,5-2 knots. it is at least ... feel
  15. +2
    2 December 2018 17: 22
    There is such an English monthly magazine - The Engineer, dedicated to new technology. It has been published since 1856. In October and November 1901, two articles about "Novik" were published in it. Interesting enough.
    http://navy-labs.ru/navy/novik/
    1. +1
      2 December 2018 17: 51
      Quote: Decimam
      In October and November 1901, two articles about "Novik" were published in it. Interesting enough.

      That's right, thanks for the links!
  16. +2
    2 December 2018 19: 43
    Who knows how things would turn out if, by the winter of 1903, the Port Arthur squadron consisted of not 7, but 10 battleships?

    Dear Andrew,
    there is reason to believe that this was possible only when placing orders abroad in larger quantities than it was in reality. Specifically - at the Kramp shipyard, because the English were not available to us. It is not a matter of money, but of a well-known fact: in Russia, as in France, for example, warships were built much more slowly than in England or the United States.
    Here is the battleship “Jauréguiberry”, the French have no problems financing. The construction contract was signed on April 8 1891, entered into operation on February 1897. And here is Retvisan - the contract was signed on April 11, on November 1898, construction began on July 17, and the battleship entered on 1899 on March 10 g.
    And here is the “Tsesarevich”, with the financing of which there were no problems either. The contract was signed on July 6, 1898, construction began on May 6, 1899, and as a result, despite the long construction period, an acceptance certificate for the unfinished ship was signed on August 18 on 1903. Go, fight on this one .. He came to Port Arthur sky-ready, when the French brought him to mind - it’s not known for sure, but not in winter 1903-1904 g.
    1. +1
      3 December 2018 09: 42
      Quote: Comrade
      there is reason to believe that this was possible only when placing orders abroad in larger quantities than it was in reality.

      Invariant :))) But it was quite possible.
      Quote: Comrade
      Specifically - at the Kramp shipyard, because the English were not available to us.

      Well, why? France, too, could be involved; the Tsesarevich still managed to go to war - with all the shortcomings. And Retvizan, generally speaking, was not bad, I wouldn’t refuse the second from Arthur :)))
      1. +1
        3 December 2018 11: 54
        Well, by and large, Ebret type Retvisan was easier to manufacture, respectively, it was possible to build three of them. All the same, the turret arrangement of the SK guns, although progressive, was returned to them only before WWII when the technologies were worked out. Even on PMD dreadnought guns of an anti-mine caliber are located in casemates. Well, at the time of the REV it was the main weapon, which was confirmed by the Sino-Japanese and Spanish-American wars. But as a result of the RPE, to expel that the 152-120mm guns with all their quantity and rate of fire are useless against armored ships
      2. +2
        3 December 2018 15: 59
        Dear Andrew,
        If we decided to order more than two armadillos abroad, then all the routes led to Kramp.
        The shipyard on which the Tsesarevich was built was the only private ship in France capable of building armadillos.
        But, since the shipyard was in decline at that time, she simply would not have pulled the second battleship by the indicated date.
        And state-owned factories simply would not have accepted the Russian order for the construction of an armadillo.
        1. 0
          4 December 2018 07: 58
          And again - hello, dear Valentine!
          Quote: Comrade
          If we decided to order more than two armadillos abroad, then all the routes led to Kramp.

          But why? There are also Germans, after all. Yes, and against Kramp, I do not really have anything in terms of armadillos.
          1. +1
            5 December 2018 03: 07
            Hello, dear Andrey!
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            There are also Germans, after all.

            Alas, not everything is simple there because of the position of Great Britain. I came across information that the first-class shipyard AG Vulcan Stettin, when ours started to move with the "Program for the needs of the Far East", received from the British a "request" to refrain from participating in the implementation of this program regarding the construction of battleships. Obviously, the "request" was quite persistent, and supported by some weighty arguments and / or suggestions.
            I understand that all this may sound unusual, and may look like a "conspiracy theory", but let's remember that only two European companies responded to the proposal to participate in the construction of the battleship, and even those without experience.
            I will never believe that only they were sent an invitation to the contest. I also won’t believe that the same AG Vulcan Stettin could voluntarily ignore the opportunity to make good money on the Russian order.
            There’s Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft - they had hardly offered her the cruisers in 3 000 to build, she instantly agreed.
            And Crump and Lagan, weren't they too lazy to come to St. Petersburg and personally beat the rapids there for the sake of ordering a battleship? Thus, the behavior of firms that have not responded to the invitation looks strange and incomprehensible. But when we remember the British with their "requests" to the Germans not to build battleships for Russia, then everything immediately falls into place.
            1. 0
              5 December 2018 16: 44
              By the way, I also came across something, about the fact that the Germans did not build the EDB for political reasons ... I really don’t remember where and in what context. It seems that something was connected with the Kaiser.
              On the other hand, German armadillos at that time were not at all a masterpiece (although American ones too).
              1. +1
                5 December 2018 17: 20
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                On the other hand, German armadillos at that time were not at all a masterpiece (although American ones too).

                I believe that with the proper TTZ, the Germans would still be able to build something more or less sane. After all, their own battleships weren't so hot because of the admirals' views, not because Germany is like that. Look, the German cruisers and destroyers did not shine either - but for us the Shihau built quite good, quite modern and strong ships, and the Novik and Askold were also better than what the Germans built for themselves (although in the case of This statement is debatable by Novikom). The fruit of love between Germany and Russia in the form of an armadillo could turn out to be just as interesting and not bad.
            2. +2
              5 December 2018 17: 18
              Quote: Comrade
              I came across information that the first-class shipyard AG Vulcan Stettin, when ours started to move with the "Program for the needs of the Far East", received from the British a "request" to refrain from participating in the implementation of this program regarding the construction of battleships.

              Everything can be, dear colleague, although it is extremely difficult for me to imagine what the British could interest Volcano
              Quote: Comrade
              I will never believe that only they were sent an invitation to the contest. I also won’t believe that the same AG Vulcan Stettin could voluntarily ignore the opportunity to make good money on the Russian order.

              Here everything depends on the availability of "seats" - the fact is that somewhere in 1897 Vulcan built a bunch of different ships, including, by the way, the Yakumo, the Chinese Hai Yang, the armored Hertha, etc. etc. In general, as I think, it would not hurt to check the availability of free stocks - as you perfectly understand, without them money cannot be made on Russian battleships :)))
              And in any case, Crump would have done quite well, even if the Germans had refused
              1. +1
                6 December 2018 02: 32
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Here everything depends on the availability of "seats" - the fact is that somewhere in 1897 Vulcan built a bunch of different ships, including, by the way, the Yakumo, the Chinese Hai Yang, the armored Hertha, etc. etc.

                If, dear Andrey, your humble servant did not miss anything, then there were places (or a place).
                The “Program for the needs of the Far East” was approved by the emperor in February 1898, at which time the following ships were built and completed at the AG Vulcan Stettin shipyard.
                Chinese cruisers :
                Hairong - launched on 15 September 1897
                Haichou - launched on December 11 1897
                Haichen - launched on February 12 1898
                Japanese cruiser :
                Yakumo - launched on 8 July 1899
                German cruisers :
                Hertha - launched on April 14 1897
                Hansa - launched on 12 March 1898 It was instead of him that one could lay an armadillo for Russia.

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                etc. etc.

                Armadillos for the German fleet were not built there in the spring of 1898; Mecklenburg will be laid down only in two years.
                1. +1
                  6 December 2018 09: 10
                  Chinese cruisers:
                  Hairong - launched on 15 September 1897
                  Haichou - launched on December 11 1897
                  Haichen - launched on February 12 1898

                  Colleague, do I understand correctly that these cruisers were something like a Gazelle for the Chinese? The very ones who refused to acquire them because Witte again squeezed money?
                  1. +1
                    7 December 2018 02: 29
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    Do I understand correctly that these cruisers were something like a Gazelle for the Chinese?

                    They are the most. By the way, an interesting story happened there with their construction, the Germans, instead of three cruisers, offered China to build one battleship with 10 '' main battery guns for the same money, but the Chinese refused.

                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    Those of whom refused to purchase, because Witte again squeezed money?

                    Here he is not to blame, the emperor suggested him "to enter into relations with the Chinese authorities on the transfer to us of three German-built cruisers at the expense of the military remuneration that follows».
                    1. 0
                      7 December 2018 13: 21
                      Hmm, but it seemed to me that there was an option to buy for real money, taking them from the rank 2 cruisers intended for the construction. There, after all, even if we count with Almaz, it turned out only five units instead of the planned ten.
                      Although, of course, due to reparations for the art of boxers, it looks much tastier :)
    2. +2
      3 December 2018 11: 06
      in fact, the RIF had enough EDB - Navarin, Sisoy and Oslyabya could have been in the PA - this is 10 EDB ... With some agility, the IA3 could be in time too ... request
      1. 0
        3 December 2018 12: 38
        Quote: ser56
        in fact, the RIF had enough EDB - Navarin, Sisoy and Oslyabya could well be in the PA - this is 10 EDB ...

        Nope. Navarin and Sisoy had to recover from their "duty" in the Far East, they simply did not have time. Well, Oslyabya ... it's generally a song, but that was the kind of plant that built it
        1. +2
          3 December 2018 17: 47
          And did Navarin and Sisoy pause a lot in the Baltic? Was it really impossible to do this in Vladik? Having slightly increased the capacity of the plant - at least for the cost of the burnt coal ... bully
          The plant is one factor, but what dragged Oslyabya with number destroyers - how is it? Moreover, ZPR they were ordered to consider them the main force of the detachment ...
          1. 0
            4 December 2018 08: 00
            Quote: ser56
            And did Navarin and Sisoy pause a lot in the Baltic? Was it really impossible to do this in Vladik?

            Quite a lot. You will recall that everything that we had in the Baltic at the time of the RNE not so long ago came from the Far East. Alas, it is impossible - there was nothing of the kind there.
            1. 0
              4 December 2018 14: 45
              Why - Rurik was repaired in Vladik, the dock was built ... and how then to fight without ship repair? so it was necessary to develop the base ... another thing is that sailing around the world was beneficial for sailors ... bully
              1. +1
                4 December 2018 18: 49
                Quote: ser56
                Why - Rurik was repaired in Vladik

                Sergei, do you remember what the "opupea" was turned into with its repair :))))
                Quote: ser56
                and how then to fight without ship repair?

                And this is a question for Witte as well. In our country, Vladivostok was developed as a fleet base, there a lot of things were supposed to be there, only now ... the funding was extended, well, plans ... of that. After the REV there EMNIP there were already 3 dry docks, only there were ships for them already ...
                In general, there were no boobies, they were planning to make a first-class fleet base from Vladik, but as always, we didn’t have time
                1. 0
                  5 December 2018 10: 27
                  And any repair in the RIF, however in the Navy of the USSR and the Russian Federation, is a mixture of opupi and theft ... bully However, Rurik was at the theater at the beginning of the war ... Sisa and Navarin could have been there, and Nevsky ... as he did as he had calculated - in the years of peace the EDB did no more than 5 000 miles / year, and the transition to the Baltic Fleet is 3 annual limit ... request
                  And I already wrote about Witte - he needed freedom, not victory ... crying Somehow, without the tsar’s stick, the bosses start playing their games and flirt ... request
                  1. 0
                    5 December 2018 11: 20
                    ... and the transition to the BF is 3 annual limits ...

                    This is true, but excessive (for the Republic of Ingushetia)) foresight was required - after all, they came to the Baltic in 1902 and ended up not in repairs, but in training ... They had to be in the Baltic in 1905, after the arrival of the new EBR according to the "plan".
                  2. 0
                    5 December 2018 11: 30
                    Quote: ser56
                    And any repair in the RIF, however in the Navy of the USSR and the Russian Federation, is a mixture of opupi and theft ...

                    So, still do not remember. And by the way, you are completely wrong.
                    Quote: ser56
                    However, Rurik was at the theater at the beginning of the war ... Sisa and Navarin could have been there, and Nevsky ... as he did as he had calculated - in the years of peace the EDB did no more than 5 000 miles / year, and the transition to the Baltic Fleet is 3 annual limit ...

                    I’m afraid you don’t understand a bit of the complexity of what you are talking about. Do not understand at all. You are tempted by external analogies - well, then, how quickly, the qualifications to melt. At the same time, you don’t even think about the fact that decisions regarding the same Vladivostok were made not by those who were interested in the qualification, but by those who had already smelted it for a long time :)))
                    But the fact that shipbuilding at that time was a complex industry, about that. that in the Far East before the appearance of the Trans-Siberian Railway there couldn’t be anything at all, that there was no industrial cluster that would allow shipbuilding to be deployed at least half of what was in the Baltic, that there were no personnel, no metal mining, no armored production, that everyone who had to be dragged from Russia, that even with the transsib, the Squadron simply interrupted from bread to water, in the sense that the goods she needed simply could not be delivered on time purely logistically, that Arthur needed to be equipped, that the cost of all this was huge (remember e for diversity as in Stalin's worth building KRL 26 project in the Baltic Sea and in the Far East) that ...
                    1. 0
                      5 December 2018 11: 52
                      1) If it’s not a secret - where in the Baltics was metal mined in RI? bully
                      2) For the repair does not need the production of neither rental nor armor - all this is brought! I note that armor was not brought to St. Petersburg from anywhere, just like cars ... Is there a big difference - to bring components from England / USA to St. Petersburg or to Vladik? It’s not a problem to have 1000t of rolled steel by sea ... the range of rolled metal used for repairs is quite limited.
                      3) As for the construction on the Far East, there’s nothing to argue about - it’s expensive, but I'm talking about repair! Yes, it will be more expensive!
                      4) At the same time, you stubbornly ignore that repairs in the Baltic require a transition back there about 35 000 miles! Not to mention time! And this is an EDB service in peacetime 5-6 years! In addition, repair facilities in the Baltic were loaded with new construction and carried out repairs slowly.
                      so there were exactly 2 solutions: either repair abroad or develop a rembase at the Pacific Fleet.
                      5) As for the admirals, they have children, nephews and generally corporatism. And in something they are right - a long hike is a good marine training ... The problem is that the admirals went hiking on sailboats ... hi
                      1. +1
                        5 December 2018 17: 11
                        1 I note that armor was not brought to Peter from where, just like cars ... Is there a big difference - to bring components from England / USA to St. Petersburg or to Vladik? it is not a problem to start a 1000t rental by sea ... the range of used rental for repair is quite limited.

                        In fact, the main suppliers, both of sheet steel and armor, were the Alexander Steel and Izhora factories and they are nevertheless closer to Peter than to Vladik :)
                        And England, this disgusting thing, is also closer to the Baltic, as well as Germany. And the American Betleichem (where they made armor for the Retvizan and other Russian ships) is much closer to the eastern coast of the USA. That is, from there it is closer to Peter.
                        4) At the same time, you stubbornly ignore that repairs in the Baltic require a transition back there about 35 000 miles! Not to mention time! And this is an EDB service in peacetime 5-6 years! In addition, repair facilities in the Baltic were loaded with new construction and carried out repairs slowly.
                        so there were exactly 2 solutions: either repair abroad or develop a rembase at the Pacific Fleet.


                        And you with the same persistence ignore the fact that in the Far East it was not so good with workers who could deal with all this. most of them were Chinese, which for a number of reasons is not gut. By the way, it wasn’t too good in the European part of Russia
                      2. 0
                        6 December 2018 12: 39
                        1) Listen to you, so bringing something to the port is a problem! bully This is a matter of money ...
                        2) But it was necessary to create repair facilities in the Far East and motivate staff to go ... the simplest solutions are to create a school to train skilled workers, set higher salaries in the Far East, etc. It’s cheaper anyway. than to drive ships for repairs to the Baltic ... When it was pressed, they sent Kuteinikov and the craftsmen to the PA ... hi
                      3. +4
                        6 December 2018 15: 31
                        Quote: ser56
                        Listen to you, so bringing something to the port is a problem! bully It's a question of money ...

                        But there wasn’t any money, because thanks to Witte, programs for the fleet were extended to 1905. Where did the money come from, Zin? :))))))
                        And in the Far East it was necessary to create repair facilities and motivate staff to go ... the simplest solutions are to create a school to train skilled workers

                        Here our leadership also thought that everything rests on money. And what if you give the Russian Defense Ministry money, then everything will be hurt. But it turned out that if there are no people, then at least heaps of money. Do you understand what a skilled worker was then? :)))) He is born a few years after a person receives preliminary training.
                        Quote: ser56
                        It’s cheaper anyway. how to drive ships for repairs to the Baltic ...

                        Compare the cost of one passage of the squadron to the Baltic Sea and the construction of a full-fledged production in the Far East. Which, strictly speaking, managed to be built (and even then with reservations) only in the late USSR
        2. 0
          3 December 2018 19: 59
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Navarin and Sisoy had to recover from their "duty" in the Far East, they simply did not have time. Well, Oslyabya ... it's generally a song, but that was the kind of plant that built it

          If at least the Sisoy with the Oslyabey had reached, it would have been nine (Navarin with its outdated artillery No. ) Three "Poltava" and "Sisoy", plus two new foreigners and a trinity of at least the same type of "Peresvet" - 6 with 305mm 40klb. guns and three with 254 guns, plus a squadron speed of 14-15 knots (theoretically), although most likely they kept 13 knots. Not a fatal lag. It would have already been 6 by 6, plus 3 "Peresvet" would somehow negate the presence of Togo "asamoids" smile
          Well, if our planners would have received the war, as they wanted, by the end of 05th year. Then they would have had the same 10 EBRs, but only in the form of 6 "Tsesarevichs", "Retvizan" and the same trinity of "Peresvetov" - only with a squadron move of 16 knots and practically only two types in terms of characteristics, which would facilitate control and service..
          This is so, thoughts out loud ... Like "if only if only" hi
          1. 0
            4 December 2018 14: 50
            yes, quite normal GK at Navarin ... with a heavy projectile of 610 m / s, for 12/40 - 700 ... I note that IN1 knocked Asama out of 12/30, where with a light projectile 570 m / s ...
            1. 0
              5 December 2018 11: 32
              Quote: ser56
              I note that IN1 knocked out Asama from 12 / 30

              Given that the EMNIP, according to Japanese data, Asama was knocked out rather 254-mm than 305-mm ...
              1. 0
                5 December 2018 11: 53
                so IN1 shot at it at that time ...
                1. 0
                  6 December 2018 07: 13
                  Quote: ser56
                  so IN1 shot at it at that time ..

                  Who told you that? :))))) This is an assumption, nothing more. And then - shoot and hit - things are fundamentally different
                  1. 0
                    6 December 2018 12: 40
                    Do you know a way to get there without shooting? hi
                    1. 0
                      6 December 2018 15: 26
                      Quote: ser56
                      Do you know a way to get there without shooting?

                      Not. But I know many ways, when shooting, not to hit :))))
              2. 0
                5 December 2018 17: 31
                quote Andrew: Asama was knocked out rather 254 mm ... Which is more powerful than 12 "/ 30; 35? wink An example was that the guns of Navarin could still ...
                Given that ... why? Gunpowder? (no goal visible)) Could replace ...
          2. 0
            5 December 2018 11: 34
            Three "Poltava" and "Sisoy", plus two new foreigners ...

            Yeah, could have 2 squads; "fast" - Caesar, Retvizan and 3 Peresvet; and "slow" three Poltava, Sisoy and Navarin. Total 10 (5 + 5))
            ... only in the form of 6 "Tsesarevichs", "Retvizan" and the same trinity of "Peresvetov"

            Can you tell me where you planned to put Poltava? To the Baltic? Collect all the "old stuff" there?
            1. 0
              5 December 2018 17: 53
              Quote: anzar
              Can you tell me where you planned to put Poltava? To the Baltic? Collect all the "old stuff" there?

              Maybe yes Yes The fact is that even if the art of the "Poltava" was of the type standard at that time - forty-caliber guns, the speed was clearly too small! And no one would keep more slow-moving ships in one squadron. so I am 100% sure that if events developed according to the scenario of Russia, then with the appearance of the Borodino five in 1905, the Trinity of the Poltava type would return to the Baltic request smile
              1. 0
                6 December 2018 09: 15
                So this was provided for by the program :))) Let me remind you that it was considered necessary to have an EBR on DV 10. Three "Persvet", "Retvizan" "Tsarevich" and five "Borodino", and "Poltava" by that time just to make capital. In addition, they were originally developed for the Baltic Yes
  17. 0
    2 December 2018 20: 23
    Quote: venik
    So they were SO interested in the history of the fleet ... For example, I live a FAR from Vladik, and I also studied in a Soviet school ... But about the Russian-Japanese (and I'm not alone, my friends too!) knew a lot) !!! AND BEFORE Melnikov (with whom I had the opportunity to be personally acquainted), literature on this topic - ENOUGH !!! Who WANTED - FIND !!! And don't blame everything on the "Marxist-Leninist ideology" !!!


    That's for sure. I got acquainted with the first books about the Russian-Japanese war in my grandfather's library. My grandfather, also from the Far East, by the way, had a "gentleman's" set: "Port Arthur" by Stepanov, "Tsushima" by Novikov, "On the Eagle" in Tsushima "by Kostenko and" Heroic Defense of Port Arthur "by Sorokin. I must say, all the books are from the 50s. In the USSR, just in the middle. The 50s marked the half-century date of the Russian-Japanese war and a lot of different literature was published, and some of the participants in those events were still alive.
  18. Alf
    +3
    2 December 2018 21: 28
    Who knows how things would turn out if, by the winter of 1903, the Port Arthur squadron consisted of not 7, but 10 battleships?

    Yes, the same way. The point is not in the quantity and even quality of the ships, but in the ability of officers and sailors to use them, as well as in the admiral who knows how to drive squadrons.
    The “armless ship”, according to S.O. Makarov, was supposed to be an armored deck, very heavily armed (2 * 203 mm, 4 * 152 mm, 12 * 75 mm guns) cruiser of very moderate speed (20 knots) and displacement (3 tons),

    And we would get Japanese "dogs", which, with excellent paper performance characteristics, could very poorly endure the storm and would be an unstable weapon platform, and even at a very low speed.
    1. 0
      2 December 2018 22: 05
      Quote: Alf
      The point is not in the quantity and even quality of the ships, but in the ability of officers and sailors to use them, as well as in the admiral who knows how to drive squadrons.

      what Yes
      "It is not ships that are fighting, but people" request
      And on the other hand ...
      "How can I fight with the junk that you slipped me" ....
      This is me about the quality of Russian ammunition and combat training winked ...
      1. Alf
        +2
        2 December 2018 22: 14
        Quote: Rurikovich
        Quote: Alf
        The point is not in the quantity and even quality of the ships, but in the ability of officers and sailors to use them, as well as in the admiral who knows how to drive squadrons.

        what Yes
        "It is not ships that are fighting, but people" request
        And on the other hand ...
        "How can I fight with the junk that you slipped me" ....
        This is me about the quality of Russian ammunition and combat training winked ...

        I do not argue, but everything is good in moderation. In the second part of your quotation, everything again rests on people, not iron.
        1. Alf
          0
          2 December 2018 23: 02
          Quote: Alf
          In the second part of your quotation, everything again rests on people, not iron.

          As the saying goes, a bad commander doesn’t care what to miss from a cannon with a core or from a B-37.
      2. 0
        3 December 2018 11: 09
        There are estimates that there were more wounded Japanese people per shell hit than Russians ... request
        As for combat training, it does not depend on the quality of equipment, but is determined by the quality of command ... as it was after the REV, they learned to shoot at the RIF ... bully
  19. +1
    3 December 2018 00: 50
    In general, it will be interesting to see what you have to say on this score, dear colleague ("pebbles" would also be covered). Bo I have recently on the topic of these cruisers, despite my rather positive assessment, the thought suggests itself like "budget options for a good cruiser" laughing
    1. +2
      3 December 2018 06: 37
      Um ... Pebbles are definitely better than Novik! Chasing destroyers is the most! Especially the so-called counter-destroyers. In general, from 1890 to 1906 the classification of ships was difficult. So many concepts and classes with uncertain TTX .... progress however
      1. 0
        3 December 2018 09: 47
        Pebbles are definitely better than Novik!

        What if not a secret?
        Hardly build quality :)
        1. 0
          3 December 2018 10: 06
          At comparable speed superiority in firepower! What for their direct opponents of destroyers, they are fatal destroyers!
          1. +1
            3 December 2018 13: 33
            Do you suppose there was a fundamental impossibility of putting a couple of 120mm guns on the Novik?
            By and large, this is the only difference, except for a different number of masts and type of boilers.
            1. 0
              3 December 2018 14: 24
              Do not believe it, but I suppose that it is not just possible! And even it was necessary to stick a couple of 120mm instead of trifles! Well, so the admirals dreamed of rams and boarding, otherwise how can we explain the huge number of small-caliber guns on the EDB and other large boxes that had only one type of Krtech shell? !!! In any case, after the revolution, small ships were successfully rearmed by sticking 45 instead of useless 76-152mm guns, and later 130 mm guns
              1. 0
                3 December 2018 15: 11
                Quote: Nehist
                Do not believe it, but I suppose that it is not just possible! And even it was necessary to stick a couple of 120mm instead of trifles


                I must say thank you for the 120 mm set. Only the lack of money, which did not immediately allow the creation of a series, forced to strengthen the armament.
              2. 0
                4 December 2018 00: 26
                please about buckshot in more detail. well, in general for small buckshot buckshot sweeping away everything from the open deck and ofs - the most for shooting at destroyers. bridges / guns, everything is open, without armor protection. You won’t sink, but you will make it ineffective.
                1. 0
                  4 December 2018 01: 06
                  The bottom line is that if the destroyer approached the range of firing cannon fire, then it will guaranteely fire a torpedo from such a distance that dodging it would be impossible for large ships to end fatally. Already during the RPE, it was clear that guns up to and including 76mm were not very effective against destroyers that were increasing dramatically in size. More precisely, the absence of normal HE shells for 76 mm guns; well, anything less is generally useless
                  1. 0
                    4 December 2018 16: 42
                    if you take the minosocks of the 90s of the 19th century, then for them the little things by the eyes. since they did not differ in speed. Novik and became a new type of mine cruiser with 120mm. in principle, he could grapple with the cruiser (if not abused) and give the fray.
      2. -1
        4 December 2018 00: 32
        here, I definitely agree with you, the classification sucks. Novik is a modern version of the mine cruiser, which were built in the late 19th century, recorded in rank 2, which also consisted of a terribly strong and fast Diamond. Well, and 1 rank - Aurora, Rurik, Bogatyr and Bayan. Is that how? horse and quivering doe? appointments, TTX are completely different
  20. 0
    6 December 2018 16: 00
    "Only there was no money, because thanks to Witte, the programs for the fleet were extended until 1905. Where does the money come from, Zin? :))))))"
    1) I already wrote about my interpretation of Witte’s intentions ... although conspiracy thesis ...
    2) And this is a matter of competent management and selection of priorities - the postponement of the expiration date of even one 6kt allowed me to find money for repairing the EDB in the Far East ... Alas, our then admiral was far from Grigorovich, I'm not talking about Tirpitz ...

    “Our management also thought that everything was about money. And that if you give the RF Ministry of Defense money, then everything will be bad. But it turned out that if there are no people, then at least they were filled up with money. Do you understand what a skilled worker was like then ?: )))) He is born a few years after a person receives preliminary training. "
    due to the nature of my work, I only deal with very qualified turners, locksmiths, milling cutters and welders ... so I am aware ... However, if you do not train personnel, then they will not be ... the problem of personnel in shipbuilding was everything 1890s, and the admirals "solved" this problem by reducing the salary and lengthening the terms ...
    Mediocrity in the economy is wild ...
    "Compare the cost of one passage of a squadron to the Baltic and the construction of a full-fledged production in the Far East. Strictly speaking, it was possible to build it (and even then with reservations) only in the late USSR [/ quote]"
    Why one? All the ships in the Pacific Fleet did at least one round-the-world trip, and some even two ... 2 round-the-world trips (the same Sisoi or Navarin) are roughly 72 miles .... subtract the trip after building the Pacific Fleet - 000 remain - this is 64000 years of service .. in fact 12/1 of the CMU resource was wasted, besides it is about 2 20 tons of coal, the annual salary of crews with allowances for swimming .. the question is more than 000 million of the then rubles. for a ship, for a dozen ships of rank 1, it is already more than 1 million ... I recall that 10 million were allocated to prepare factories for the construction of dreadnought
    There is only one conclusion - at the head of the Maritime Department were people who poorly understood the economics of war ... request
  21. 0
    10 December 2018 22: 25
    A great cruiser for its time!
    The best would be only that proposed by S.O. Makarov.
    Of course, provided that it would not be spoiled by the construction of the Russian military bureaucracy ... meaningless and merciless.
    Yes, he did not shine in the conditions in which he was placed.
    And who could shine, having received an 8-inch projectile from the Yakumo and forcibly using the sea water in the boilers, lose speed - their main advantage, which made it possible to get away from a strong enemy?
    In May 41, the much more powerful and modern Bismarck, having received an equally unsuccessful hit with a 356 mm projectile from the Prince of Wales, also turned into a vulnerable target.
    Drive any "Varyag" into Chemulpo's trap - and get "heroic death" without damage to the enemy.

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