Military Review

Armored decked lightning. Cruiser II rank "Novik". Not yet arrived S.O. Makarov

88
So, in the last article we left “Novik”, when he, after receiving damage from a Japanese projectile and taking 120 tons of water, entered the inner raid of Port Arthur. Interestingly, the 27 battle of January 1904 r, killing one of the Novik sailors (fatally wounded 47 gunner Ilya Bobrov died on the same day), had a very positive effect on the fate of the other. The fact is that even before the fight, Rodion Prokopets, quartermaster of Novik, 10 November 1903, managed to “distinguish himself” while being in dismissal and in a fair drunk, he “swearing obstinately” the land forces officer - captain Blokhin, for which he received a checker over the head. Whether the captain himself was under the hop, or his hands were shaking from such arrogance of the lower rank, but R. Prokopets's head did not collapse in half, but got rid of a scar twenty-two centimeters long, for which the captain went to court.


However, R. Prokoptsu, despite the status of the victim, such an escapade had to go sideways - they were going to judge him exactly 27 January 1904, but, for obvious reasons, the process did not take place. The court was moved to February 9, and there N.O. von Essen, who asked for indulgence to the defendant due to the fact that the latter "stood all the time on the steering wheel and showed a lot of military prowess, and under severe fire calmly and skillfully performed his duty." As a result, the case ended with the fact that R. Prokopts was nevertheless sentenced to the year of the disciplinary battalion, but then he was pardoned: Vice-Admiral O.V. Stark, on the eve of the surrender of the post to the new squadron commander, SO Makarov approved this sentence, so R. Prokopets got off with a slight fright for his “little boatswain's bend”.

Nikolai Ottovich himself for the battle of 27 January 1904 was awarded gold weapons with the inscription "For courage."



It must be said that the combat damage did not put the cruiser down for a long time - on January 30 it was put on dry dock, and on February 8 on 1904, it came out as new, ready for new battles and achievements. Nevertheless, a lot happened in these 10 days in Port Arthur, including the death of the Boyarin cruiser, and all of this may have had a far greater impact on the squadron’s activities than is commonly believed.

The fact is that, oddly enough, the first days after the start of the war, the vicar of Ye.I. Alekseev demanded active actions - on February 4 he gathered a meeting in which, besides himself, the chief of staff of the governor V.K. Vitgeft, squadron chief O.V. Stark, junior flagships and other officers. A note by captain 1 of rank A.A. Aberhard, in which he proposed a squadron march to Chemulpo in order to demonstrate strength and interrupt the landing, if there was one, for which, including, it was necessary to inspect the skerries near the city.

Of course, A.A. Eberhard was well aware that in his current state there were five armadillos, of which Peresvet and Pobeda were an intermediate type between an armadillo and an armored cruiser, and the small armored cruiser Bayan could not count on success in an open battle against the main Japanese forces fleet consisting of 6 armadillos and 6 large armored cruisers. Nevertheless, he considered it possible to give battle to parts of the Japanese fleet if the latter, under the influence of any factors (damage in battle at Port Arthur on January 27, 1904, distracting actions of the Vladivostok cruiser detachment, etc.) is divided into those and the squad encountered will be "tough" to the weakened squadron of the Pacific Ocean.

Thus, in order to bring the squadron into the sea without the “Tsesarevich” and “Retvizan”, it was necessary to conduct long-range reconnaissance and detect Japanese forces. A.A. Ebergard proposed to make "thorough reconnaissance of both the western half of the Gulf of Pechili and parts of Liaodong Bay, and the eastern part of the sea in the direction of the cruise of the enemy squadron -" Shantung-Clifford ". If at the same time a relatively weak Japanese detachment is found, then it will be possible to “think of an offensive with the aim of a battle at a distance of 100-300 miles from our point — Port Arthur.”

Interestingly, the members of the meeting fully agreed with the governor, the need for such a raid of the main forces to Chemulpo, in order to destroy individual ships and detachments of the enemy, as well as an attack on the route of the land forces that landed in Chemulpo. Nevertheless, the decision was not executed, and the main problem was the lack of cruisers.

Indeed, apart from the “Rurik”, “Gromoboya”, “Russia” and “Bogatyr” located in Vladivostok, the squadron of the Pacific Ocean had seven cruisers before the war, including: one armored cruiser “Bayan”, four armored 1-grade - "Askold", "Varyag", "Pallas" and "Diana", as well as two armored 2-rank - "Boyar" and "Novik". But by the time the meeting was over, “Varyag” was already lying at the bottom of the Chemulpo raid, “Boyarin” - was killed by a mine, and “Pallada” and “Novik” were under repair, and everything about everything from Vice-Admiral O.V. Stark was only three cruisers - "Bayan", "Askold" and "Diana".


"Diana" before the Russo-Japanese War, 1903


At the same time, “Diana”, in its actual qualities, was completely unsuitable for the role of a long-range intelligence officer. With real speed within 17,5-18 knots, this cruiser was not able to escape from a group of Japanese armored cruisers or a large armored cruiser - they were quite able to catch up and destroy the “Diana”. This does not indicate the complete uselessness of this cruiser, oddly enough, it could well serve as a scout for the squadron. The fact is that in those years the effective range was significantly lower than the detection range. It was possible to see the enemy on 10 miles, and more, but successfully shooting at him from cruisers would be difficult at distances greater than 4 miles. Thus, even with superior speed in the 2-3 knot, enemy cruisers might need 2-3 hours to get close to the effective Diane leaving for them at full speed after detection. Accordingly, the “Diana” could easily conduct reconnaissance at a distance of 35-45 miles from the squadron and even more, always having the opportunity to retreat under cover of the “big guns”, and in principle, the 8 * 152-mm guns of the cruiser made it possible to count on success in battle with a single small cruiser Japanese (like "Tsushima", "Suma", etc.). But even this could be dangerous if the same “doggie” squad managed to interpose between the “Diana” and the main forces, and it was completely impossible to send a cruiser to distant reconnaissance.

Moreover, if there was a competition for the most untrained crew in the squadron, then Diana would have excellent chances to take first place in it. Recall how this cruiser Vl. Semenov in his famous "Payback":

“The cruiser who launched the 17 campaign in January had been in reserve for the 11 months! Even if it left Kronstadt to the Far East (in the autumn of 1902), the team was formed strictly according to the rules, then there would have to be two appeals as part of it, that is, people who did not see the sea around 1 / 3. In fact, these men dressed in sailor shirts turned out to be almost 50%, and the marine practice of a good half of the rest was exhausted by the only trip from Arthur to Vladivostok and back ... Manners and customs were established not only not sea, but even not land-barracks but just ... rustic. When doing some work, although not common, but requiring a significant number of people, instead of a specific command or command, there is such a branch there and there! - the non-commissioned officers asked the "countrymen" to help, and even the senior boatswain, instead of the chief shout, invited the "guys" to lean heavily on "the whole world" in order to "wave away - and sabbath! .." ”.


Thus, in order to scout the situation, O.V. Stark was left with only 2 cruisers, armed transports and destroyers, and this, of course, was not enough - attempts to conduct reconnaissance by these forces, although they were undertaken, did not lead to anything sensible. But if at the disposal of the Chief of the Squadron there were not only Bayan and Askold, but also Novik with Boyar, then the squadron may still have gone on its first military campaign. Of course, Novik came out of February 8 repair, and could be used in operations, but, as we know, already on February 9 a new commander was appointed to the Squadron, S.O. Makarov.

Strictly speaking, this was the case - due to the fact that the Japanese landed in Korea, the governor of E.I. Alekseev urgently needed to visit Mukden. In order to strengthen the authority of O.V. Stark, the governor asked for the highest permission to give O.V. Stark is the rights of the fleet commander, which this vice-admiral did not have. However, E.I. Alekseev received the answer that a new commander, SO, was appointed to the squadron. Makarov. The deputy, of course, took note of this, but did not abandon his plans for the expedition to Chemulpo, and in the secret order of O.V. Starku, recalling the need to take care of the armadillos, demanded to make this trip all the same. However, alas, the delay turned out to be that the Japanese again took the initiative in their hands ...

The governor left Port Arthur on February 8, simultaneously with the return of Novik into service, and O.V. Stark was preparing to carry out the order of the Steward. According to his orders, on February 11, all three existing cruisers under the command of Rear Admiral MP Molasa, accompanied by four destroyers, were to carry out a reconnaissance raid to the mouth of the Cinampo River. But in the evening of February 10, the Japanese made the first attempt to block the exit to the external raid in Port Arthur, which, however, was repelled. In the morning of February 11, two destroyers, the Watchdog and the Watchman, went on patrol to search for enemy ships and found four Japanese destroyers. By attaching the Skory, which was nearby, all three Russian destroyers attempted to attack the Japanese unit - but they did not accept a decisive battle and retreated to the east, leading a sluggish fire at a great distance. In the end, following the instructions passed from the Golden Mountain, the destroyers turned back. “Novik” in 07.08 in the morning went to sea for support, but could not catch up with the Japanese, so, sending the “Fast” to Port Arthur, took the rest of the Russian destroyers to Pigeon Bay, where “Striker” and “ Prompt. Leading, thus, a combined detachment of four destroyers, "Novik" led him to Port Arthur.

However, at the same time, an 3 battle squad commanded by Rear Admiral Deva, as part of the Kasagi, Chetose, Takasago, and Iosino high-speed armored cruisers, approached Port Arthur. reconnaissance, followed by the main forces of Kh. Togo. On the cruisers, they identified the Russian squadron as the Novik and 5 destroyers, and went on rapprochement with it.


Armored cruiser "Takasago"


The situation was saved by the prudence of the rear admiral, and maybe the squadron commander, since it is unclear who exactly gave the order according to which an external raid arrived at 08.00 in the morning, “Bayan” went out to cover the returning Novik and the destroyers, and later 25 minutes - “ Askold. Just about this time, Golden Mountain observers found, in addition to the 3-s to him, the military unit of Virgo, and 6 battleships and 6 armored cruisers X. Togo, accompanied by small ships, all counted were 25 pennants. Thus, the reconnaissance raid to the Cinampo cruisers finally lost its meaning - the main forces of the Japanese were in direct view from Port Arthur.

By 08.55, the "dogs" of Rear Admiral Deva approached the Novik and the destroyers and fired on Russian ships. The official Russian historiography indicates that the Japanese have come close to the 40 cable distance, but, reading the reports of the destroyer commanders about this fight, you inevitably experience this great doubt. So, for example, the commander of the “Watchman” reported that the Japanese volleys went to “huge shortfalls”, and the “Novik”, apparently, did not even try to answer. Obviously, all this is completely unnatural for the distance in 4 miles and it can be assumed that in fact it was much more. Apparently, the source of this error lies in the misinterpretation of the report of the commander of Bayan, who said: “In 08 hours of 55 minutes, enemy ships, approaching 40 cable distance, opened fire on Novik and the destroyers, and then on the Bayan cruiser "". However, this line has a double interpretation - it is not clear to whom it was 40 cable, before Novik or Bayan? In addition, we should take into account the not too good ability of our range-finders to determine the distance, but perhaps the appearance is also to blame: the fact that the Japanese cruisers were given short undershoots indicates that the distance to the enemy was mistakenly determined, and in fact the Russians They were farther than the artillerymen of Rear Admiral Deva.

Be that as it may, the “Bayan” and the “Askold” rushed to the Novik and the destroyers, so the Japanese were forced to disperse the fire. At Bayan, they raised a signal: “Novika” to join the wake of Askold, which was done. Now the Novik opened fire, and the Russian cruisers attacked the 3-th combat detachment of the Japanese, and the destroyers they were covering went into the harbor. However, the decisive battle did not work - already in 09.00, the "dogs" were turned off at 16 points (that is, at 180 degrees), and began to leave. This decision of Rear Admiral Deva is quite understandable: his task was to investigate the success of the passage barrier into the inner harbor of Port Arthur, and not at all the decisive battle with the Russian cruisers. He accomplished this task, and now he should return with a report: in addition, by retreating, the Japanese had little hope of captivating Russian cruisers with the guns of their heavy ships. Despite the fact that the Japanese battleships and armored cruisers were far enough away, and, in principle, it was possible to try to pursue the Japanese cruiser detachment for at least some time, they raised a signal on Golden Mount to the “Cruisers to return to the internal raid”. Naturally, this order was executed and in 09.20 the fire stopped on both sides. In this battle, no one suffered any losses - there were no hits on the Japanese ships, but their shells, according to the commander of the “Bayan”, lay down no closer than two cables from Russian ships. However, this small skirmish was only a prelude to what happened the next day.

In the evening of February 11, eight Russian destroyers launched an external raid. If their task was to attempt the night attack of the main forces of the enemy, discovered in the morning of the same day, then such a rambling affair would have been welcome. However, the tasks of these destroyers were much more modest - they should have prevented the Japanese light forces from trying to make another night sabotage, by analogy with the attempt to enter the night from 10 to 11 in February. However, this was also important - we must not forget that the newest squadron battleship Retvisan, undermined during the attack on 27 in January of 1904, was still aground and was an excellent prize for Japanese destroyers. The Japanese made a night attack, which failed, however, with success - but our destroyers did not succeed in trying to intercept the “colleagues” from the Land of the Rising Sun.

It was clear that the Japanese light forces (yes, the same "dogs") could appear at Port Arthur in the morning for reconnaissance or hoping to intercept and destroy the destroyers returning from patrol. In order to prevent this, on 06.45 in the morning of February 12, all three combat-ready Russian cruisers launched an external raid - and all this became the prologue for the most unusual sea battle of the Russian-Japanese war. The fact is that just at this time, the main forces of Heyhatiro Togo approached Port Arthur, and this time they were not going to stand aside ...

Of the 8 Russian destroyers of the 1 squadron, which went into the night patrol, only two returned at dawn. Then 07.00 of the destroyer returned to 4, who reported to Bayan that they saw two smoke. Soon cruisers noticed several smokes in the southeast, in 08.15 it became clear that the main forces of the Japanese fleet were coming. Rear Admiral MP Molas, who was holding the flag on the Bayan, reported to Port Arthur that “the enemy, including 15 ships, is coming from the sea,” and ordered the cruisers to be built in battle order: “Bayan”, “Novik”, “Askold”, which was performed on 08.30.

Oddly enough, but OV Stark was not going to sit in the inner harbor at all - at about the same time he ordered the squadron battleships to plant pairs in order to enter the outer raid at 14.00 - it was high water during the day, before the deep-seated ships could not leave the inner harbor. Then ov Stark ordered the cruisers to continue to monitor the enemy, remaining under the protection of the coastal batteries, and canceled the output of the "Diana", which, apparently, he was still going to use before. At about the same time, observers from the forts spotted 2 Russian destroyers who did not have time to return to the port: “Impressive” and “Fearless” were returning from Lyaoteshen.

Some sources indicate that Rear Admiral MP Molas asked the Chief of the Squadron for permission to return to the internal raid - this is difficult or not to say, but neither the report of the commander of "Bayan" nor the official historiography contain any mention of this, so it could not be. But in 09.00 OV Stark repeated his order, indicating at the same time having 9 turn nodes. Soon the Japanese fleet became clearly visible — the Chihaia advices went ahead, the 6 battleships of the 1 combat detachment followed them, the Tatsuta advices followed by a large interval, and the 6 armored cruisers of Kamimura followed them, and 4 behind them all Armored cruisers of Rear Admiral Deva.


High-quality photo of the battleship "Asahi"


As a matter of fact, for the Japanese the situation was extremely successful - under the batteries there were only three Russian cruisers that could be attacked by the main forces of the fleet and destroyed, while the squadron armadillos remained in the internal roadstead and obviously could not help. H. Togo seemed to be going to do this and went to a rapprochement, but, according to official Japanese historiography, he discovered a floating mine right at the rate and suggested that the cruisers were luring him into a minefield, which in fact was not. As a result, he defaulted past Port Arthur at a great distance (on the order of 10 miles), keeping heading for the summit of Lyaotechan, then turned to 09.35 in 180 degrees. and went back, with the advice notes gone, and the 3-I combat detachment ("dogs") continued to move to Lyaotechan, thereby cutting off the way home for the returning Russian destroyers.

Well, the 12 of the armored ships X. Togo returned now to where they came from, and, once again passing by Port Arthur, only in 10.40 did they turn onto Russian cruisers. Around the same time, the Japanese admiral allowed his ships to open fire at any convenient time for them. This happened according to Japanese data in 10.45, but the five-minute difference is quite explainable by the inaccuracies of logbooks, which in the Russian fleet, for example, were filled in after the battle. Most likely, Kh. Togo gave this order at the same time as he returned to the Russian cruisers - however, it is not excluded that he ordered during the turnaround, and the five-minute difference is connected with the loss of time to raise the signal.

Rear Admiral MP Molas immediately turned to the south-east - it turned out that he was at odds with the Japanese squadron countercourses, while moving away from Port Arthur. Here I would like to point out the mistake of esteemed A. Emelin - in his monograph on the Novik cruiser, he points out that the cruisers went to the harbor entrance, but this is not confirmed by either Russian or Japanese sources. The Japanese, having come close to the Russian cruisers on the 40 cable, turned again (where - alas, from the descriptions of this fight it is unclear, it only indicates that the 8 glasses, i.e. 90 degrees) and no later than 10.58 opened fire on the cruisers - the closest at that time, the “Askold” terminal was located to them. We write "no later than that", because in 10.58, as we know from Japanese historiography, opened fire on Mikas, but it is possible that other Japanese ships, guided by X. Togo’s order, started the battle earlier. In the Russian sources indicated that the battle began "the main Japanese battleship," but the fire was opened by them a little earlier, in 10.55.

What happened next? The witness of those distant events, Lieutenant A.P. Shter we can read:

“Then, seeing that, continuing the battle with such a strong opponent, you can only destroy the ship without using it at all, the commander of Novik launched full speed to the vehicles and rushed at the enemy fleet, intending to attack mines. He was not allowed to fulfill his plan, because, noticing our maneuver, in Arthur they raised a signal: “Novik” to return to the harbor. ”


But was it really? Apparently - no, everything was completely different. As we said earlier, at the moment the battle began, Rear Admiral MP’s detachment Molas was removed from Port Arthur, and hence from the batteries of his fortress. Therefore, already in 11.00 OV Stark raised the signal "Staying Closer to the Batteries", which was logical - in the current situation only their fire gave the cruisers some hope of surviving. At this time, the cruiser MP Molas led the battle, having the enemy on the port side, and in order to execute the order of the commander, he had to turn around to 16 points, that is, 180 degrees, but how? A turn to the left led to a rapprochement with the enemy, but if you turn to the right, then - on the contrary, breaking the distance. And at this moment on the cruiser “Bayan” a mistake was made: wanting to give an order to turn “through the right shoulder”, they raised a signal: “Turn everything suddenly to the left on 16 rhumbuses”.

In the end, it turned out that Novik and Askold turned left on the opposite course, while Bayan turned to the right - from the side, and on the ships themselves it seemed as if Novik and Askold went on the attack on the enemy. Probably, O.V. Stark ordered to raise the signal: "Cruisers return to the harbor."

It must be said that at this point the rear cruisers of Rear Admiral M.P. Molasa was not good at all - he was fighting with three ships against six battleships and six armored cruisers of the Japanese, and only high speed (and with the start of the battle 20 units were moved) still saved his ships from heavy damage. But the distance to the main forces of H. Togo had already been reduced to 32 cabels, and therefore the rear admiral had no choice but to go to emergency measures and enter the inner harbor of Port Arthur at 20 nodes speed, which, of course, was in peacetime unthinkable and never done before. Michman from “Askold” V.I. Medvedev described this episode as follows:

“It seemed that everyone had forgotten that there were port barges to enter the harbor. We all had one desire, as soon as possible and better to execute the signal of the admiral ... One by one we entered the passage at full speed, and behind the stern the shells continued to crumble. Our gunners fired until the stern gun hid behind the Golden Mount, which was just at that moment hit by a shell, showered all around with splinters and stones. ”


The Russian cruisers entered the harbor at about 11.15, so a shootout with the Japanese fleet at cable distances 32-40 took 20 minutes or so. "Askold" spent 257 shells, and "Novik" - 103, including 97-120-mm and 6 - 47-mm, unfortunately, the consumption of shells "Bayan" remains unknown. It is also unclear how many shells the Japanese spent in that battle, but in any case, they fired not only the cruisers, but also the coastal batteries of Port Arthur. According to the Japanese data, in this battle they did not suffer any damage, as before the Russian losses, the hit of the Japanese projectile beat off part of the barrel from the left 152-mm gun rifle cannon of the cruiser “Askold”, and a sailor was wounded by a fragment of this shell, breaking his leg. In fact, the cruiser believed that 305-mm Japanese projectile fell into them. In addition to the detachment of Rear Admiral MP Molasa took part in the battle one of the batteries of the Tiger Peninsula and the guns of the Electric Cliff: the lower rank was wounded on the battery of the last battery No. XXUMX. Apparently, there were no hits in the Japanese ships and no one was killed or wounded either. Thus, it can be stated that the greatest losses in the battle, which took place on February 15 12, suffered ... the Chinese, who after the battle 1904 people were arrested on suspicion that they gave signals to the Japanese fleet. This, however, is not the only anecdote from February 15 - according to the recollections of the above-mentioned midshipman V.I. Medvedev, in the midst of the battle, when the Russian cruisers 12 fought with inconceivable inequality of forces, and many views were riveted to the signal mount of Golden Mountain, waiting for what the Squadron commander would decide ... a signal was raised on her: "Free doctors get together at Sevastopol at three o'clock in the afternoon."

Nevertheless, the Russian fleet suffered 12 February losses - the destroyers "Impressive" and "Fearless" were returning to Port Arthur when the Japanese squadron appeared, while the "Fearless", giving full speed, broke into harbor under fire, but "Impressive" did not ventured, preferring to take refuge in Pigeon Bay. There he was found the four cruisers of Rear Admiral Deva. “Impressive” opened fire, but was quickly hit, after which the team, after opening the ship’s kingstones, evacuated to the land.

I must say that, before arriving in Port Arthur Stepan Osipovich Makarov, the cruiser under the command of M.P. Molasa left Port Arthur’s inner harbor twice more, but in both cases nothing interesting happened. So, 16 February, Bayan, Askold, Novik and Diana went out to sea, the purpose, according to the order of the head of the cruiser squadron was: “to show the Russian flag in the waters of the Kantunsky fortified area, and if possible to illuminate the adjacent waters of the Pechili Gulf , with the indispensable condition to avoid a collision with the strongest enemy. "

The campaign did not work out from the very beginning - the exit of the cruisers was assigned to 06.30, but the port boats approached only in 07.20 after two reminders. We note that this time the rear admiral took with him the "Diana", but not because he decided to use this cruiser in reconnaissance - he was only prepared for the role of a repeater of radiograms. Therefore, when the ships MP Molas came to Fr. Enkaunter, the Diana stayed there, and the rest of the cruisers, having adopted an equilateral triangle with a side length of 2 miles, and having the lead cruiser Novik, went ahead. But alas, the all-time "condition to avoid the strongest enemy" played a cruel joke with the cruisers - moving away from 25 miles from Fr. Enkaunter, on Novik, signals were seen with a combat lamp. Not understanding who was in front of them, the squad turned to Port Arthur where he arrived without incident, taking the Diana on the way and entering 15.30 on the internal raid. All intelligence was reduced to the discovery of a Japanese destroyer and two junks, so that its only result was a statement of the absence of the main enemy forces in 50 miles from Port Arthur.

The next exit took place on February 22. It was originally planned to send Novik to Inchendza Bay in order to cover the 4 Russian destroyers who had gone there for reconnaissance at night, and Bayan and Askold were to go to the Dalniy port and bring out four steamboats intended for flooding in the raid the purpose of the difficulty of the action of Japanese firewalls. But when all three cruisers were already headed for the sea, the “Diana” came out on the outer raid, with which a new order was sent over the radio and by signals: all cruisers would immediately go to Inchenda because the Japanese were landing there.

I must say that they decided to oppose the landing, seriously - General Fock stepped forward from Kinjou, leading the regiment and the guns attached to him, and their Port Arthur left Battalion with four guns to Inchentza. They were going to withdraw and the main forces of the squadron - the battleships were ordered to dissolve the pair and go to the raid with high water.

At this time, the cruiser MP Molasa came to Inchendzy, and this time the rear admiral acted bravo, and much more decisively than at the exit of February 16. The Russians discovered the smoke of unknown ships, then M.P. Molas ordered Novik to reconnoiter the bay, in which, according to the information, the Japanese landed, he himself led the Bayan and Askold towards the enemy. Alas, the battle enthusiasm was lost this time in vain - it turned out to be the very 4 of our destroyer, whom the Novik had to meet and cover up. By the way, the cruisers M.P. Molasa and first tried to retreat, but then they managed to count the number of "Askold" pipes - since he was the only one among all other Russian and Japanese ships to have five pipes, it became clear that it was his own.

As for Novik, he ordered the reconnaissance of the bay, but, alas, did not find anyone there - the information about the landing of the Japanese turned out to be false. Thus, the detachment of the cruisers of Rear Admiral MP Molasa had no choice but to return to Port Arthur together with the destroyers he had encountered, which, by the way, caused this error - the head of the telegraph station in Inchenda, who reported on the Japanese landing, actually saw the landing of people from the Russian destroyers.

Thus, we see that the thesis “to protect and not to risk” still did not fully touch the cruisers of the Pacific squadron and the “Novik” - yet before the arrival of S.O. Makarov they repeatedly went to sea and twice fought against the main forces of Japan Fleet (January 27 and February 12).

Продолжение следует ...
Author:
Articles from this series:
Armored decked lightning. Cruiser II rank "Novik"
Armored decked lightning. The cruiser of the second rank "Novik". Design features
Armored decked lightning. Cruiser II rank "Novik". Cost / Efficiency Criterion
Armored decked lightning. Cruiser II rank "Novik". Fight 27 January 1904 g
88 comments
Ad

Subscribe to our Telegram channel, regularly additional information about the special operation in Ukraine, a large amount of information, videos, something that does not fall on the site: https://t.me/topwar_official

Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. vladcub
    vladcub 25 December 2018 06: 42
    +5
    Such orders on: "Diana" indicate that the captain has forgotten about his duties. This did not work for Essen.
    Andrew, I have a question: how do you rate Stark?
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      25 December 2018 18: 40
      +2
      Quote: vladcub
      Andrew, I have a question: how do you rate Stark?

      "Winter is coming" (c) laughing
      A difficult question, dear Svyatoslav. If you think about it, the squadron drove up to the governor’s review rather well, but as for the rest ... in general, I myself have not yet made a final opinion about it. One thing I can say for sure - he was not exactly mediocrity.
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 25 December 2018 19: 20
        +1
        In Stepanov's book: "Port Arthur" is said about him almost positively, but traditionally spoke about him negatively.
  2. svp67
    svp67 25 December 2018 07: 46
    0
    "Novik" is somewhat reminiscent of the stiletto, both externally and features of combat use.
  3. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 25 December 2018 08: 55
    +4
    Very interesting, dear colleague!
    I would like to note the actions of Admiral Stark, who was traditionally considered a purely negative character. But Oscar Viktorovich was not at all bad, they just pinned the blame on him for the pots he did not break, and besides, they also slandered the famous fable about the ball during the Port Arthur wake-up call.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      25 December 2018 18: 41
      +2
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      But Oscar Viktorovich was not at all bad, they just pinned the blame on him for the pots he did not break, and besides, they also slandered the famous fable about the ball during the Port Arthur wake-up call.

      That's for sure, dear Ivan, it's hard not to agree
    2. vladcub
      vladcub 26 December 2018 19: 30
      0
      Senior sailor, I read about the ball at O. Stark's by Stepanov's "Port Arthur" (the note says: infa from some reporter).
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        26 December 2018 19: 43
        0
        Quote: vladcub
        Senior sailor, I read about the ball at O. Stark's by Stepanov's "Port Arthur" (the note says: infa from some reporter).

        In fact, O.V. Stark was aboard his flagship, Petropavlovsk, on the night of the attack, and left there only at the request of the governor in the morning, after a short pursuit of the Japanese cruisers, in order to return immediately after the main forces appeared. By the way, on the evening of January 26, he held a meeting on the defense of ships in the outer roadstead.
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 26 December 2018 21: 17
          0
          Someone was interested in making Stark
          1. arturpraetor
            arturpraetor 26 December 2018 22: 13
            0
            "Nothing personal just business". In a sense, we are used to dumping all the blame on one person, and the person is not usually identified as the most guilty, but the most convenient for this is appointed. Tsushima lost? The tsar and the admiral are to blame. The 1st TOE had not the best times - the admiral was to blame. Etc...
      2. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 26 December 2018 19: 57
        +1
        Vladimir Semenov personally interviewed eyewitnesses of the events and, based on the results, wrote the following:
        Is it true, I asked, that the squadron was unconcerned directly ... incomprehensible? That she stood on the outer roadstead with all the lights, without vapors, without nets, without security and patrol vessels? That at the very moment of the attack not only many officers and commanders, but even the admiral himself were on the shore, celebrating the day of the angel M.I. Stark?
        First of all, admit that the Angara personnel - (the conversation took place on the Angara with one of the new colleagues) - are essentially the most impartial witness of everything that happened. We have been in the squadron for a year without, we are not connected with it by any traditions, by any habit of long joint service, on the contrary - we can consider ourselves offended, since instead of a combat ship we got on an armed steamer ... So, I will answer you categorically: the first part of your question is a bitter truth, but with the proviso that the squadron is not to blame for the carelessness shown, which you gently called incomprehensible, but I will directly call it criminal! As for the second part, this is gossip, launched with the explicit purpose of shifting all responsibility for what happened to Admiral Stark.

        - From the moment the squadron became disposed of in the outer roadstead, it was ordered, once and for all, that by sunset, by 5 hours of the day, all personnel would be on their ships, and communication with the shore would cease until dawn. This was the only order, in the sense of precautionary measures, which the squadron commander could give by his authority without asking permission from the governor. And this order was exactly executed. Especially 26 January! Well! .. - After all, we all saw how the ship came with the Japanese consul from Chifu to pick up and take away Japanese citizens from Arthur. We saw how he was anchored, almost in the middle of the squadron, how he was in a hurry to leave before dawn. To whom it was not clear that this was a war! Or do you think that we did not understand this ?! Could it be that if the whole squadron had not been on alert, they would have picked up combat alert so quickly, in all ships? Could we get off so cheap ?!

        http://az.lib.ru/s/semenow_w_i/text_1907_1_rasplata.shtml
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 26 December 2018 21: 20
          0
          Why did Stepanov write in this book?
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 27 December 2018 09: 16
            0
            Yes, Stepanov wrote a lot in his book.
            I don’t like Stepanov, here are the memories of an eyewitness:
            The slander from the first days of the war spread throughout Russia that fleet officers were at the ball on the night of the war, on the occasion of Admiral's Stark’s name day, and therefore missed the Japanese mine attack, it bloomed again, especially in half-century, in the Soviet Union the novel Port Arthur. The author of this novel, Mr. Stepanov, even claims that the ball was taking place at the Maritime Assembly and the Viceroy himself opened the ball with Admiral Stark.

            Admiral Stark had a daughter’s birthday at home and some of the young officers were there that day. In the evening, communication with the shore of the squadron, which stood on the outer roadstead, was interrupted at the signal of the flagship. All officers were on their ships. Admiral Stark himself was on his flagship Petropavlovsk. We all knew this for sure then and do not doubt it now, after half a century.

            Kefeli. "The first day of the war"
            1. vladcub
              vladcub 27 December 2018 17: 57
              0
              Senior sailor, it seems -: "sailor 1 article"? (I am overland and do not really know the hierarchy of naval missions), you will agree that Stepanov for the 40s, wrote an almost truthful book
              1. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 28 December 2018 09: 26
                +1
                Stepanov wrote a very good artistic a book. And that’s how it should be treated.
        2. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 26 December 2018 22: 34
          -2
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          Vladimir Semenov personally interviewed eyewitnesses of the events and, based on the results, wrote the following:

          Vladimir Semenov is a liar and a traitor. One of the organizers of the surrender of Admiral Rozhestvensky on the destroyer Bedovy. The first, still on Buiny, asked if there was a white flag on the destroyer. Known for his science fiction novels and the fact that he managed to get away from being shot at the tribunal about the delivery of the destroyer Bedovy without a fight (Unlike his friends Klapier de Colonga and Filippovsky).

          Vladimir Semenov is generally the last one whose testimonies or books can be trusted.
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 27 December 2018 09: 58
            +3
            It is, of course, more visible from the Eagle infirmary.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              27 December 2018 20: 05
              +1
              Colleague, what does the hospital on the "Eagle" have to do with it? Rather, one should recall the ever-memorable chamber No. 6 ...
            2. Saxahorse
              Saxahorse 27 December 2018 23: 15
              -2
              Do you hear about this for the first time? Well, at least read Wiki then ...

              No matter how lenient the tribunal (and there, even the type of those shot was pardoned in the end), Semenov no longer dismissed the white flag. And his books are entirely aimed at justifying Rozhdestvensky and himself, as a member of the headquarters of this mediocre admiral of the ruined squadron.

              The reasoning of this "hero" with a white flag cannot evoke anything but disgust. You would also quote Vlasov here, teach him how to properly defend your homeland ..
              1. vladcub
                vladcub 28 December 2018 16: 36
                0
                With Vlasoavym you had enough
                1. Saxahorse
                  Saxahorse 29 December 2018 00: 05
                  -1
                  Quote: vladcub
                  With Vlasoavym you had enough

                  But why. Vlasov, too, at first only raised his hands. And then I had to participate in propaganda. And shoot at their own.
              2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                28 December 2018 19: 50
                +3
                Quote: Saxahorse
                No matter how lenient the tribunal (and there, even the type of those shot was pardoned in the end), Semenov no longer dismissed the white flag.

                Saksakhors, of course I understand your ardent desire to once again throw a well-known substance on the fan, but it won't work. I will not write about the fact that a person who fought on the 1TOE and escaped from an interned cruiser to get to 2TOE, although he imagined what she was, fortunately, he served for several years in the RIF - that such a person by deed confirmed his courage. And I will not even sort through your next fantasy, I will just point out one simple thing that kills your "logic" in the bud.
                Semenov, being in fact ranked above the state, the "fifth wheel" in the cart of Rozhdestvensky's headquarters, could not be responsible for the delivery of the destroyer "Bedovy". This was the destroyer commander, Rozhdestvensky's chief of staff, and finally, there were flagship specialists. So there was no one to fear Semenov and there was no need.
                Quote: Saxahorse
                The reasoning of this "hero" with a white flag cannot evoke anything but disgust.

                Do not believe it, I feel this feeling when reading your attempts to know history
                1. Saxahorse
                  Saxahorse 29 December 2018 00: 12
                  -2
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Saxahorse, of course I understand your ardent desire to once again throw a well-known substance on the fan, but it won’t work out. I will not write about the fact that a man who fought on ..

                  This is probably what you need to ask, why whatever you have a hero, it certainly smells of the same substance ..

                  Let me first quote your non-doing "person":
                  “Let the readers not think that I want to expose the people who led the slanderous newspaper campaign against Admiral Rozhestvensky as some kind of melodramatic villains. Not at all! "(C) Semenov V." The price of blood ""


                  And now let me remind you of another source: E.V. Dubrovsky. "Cases about the surrender to the Japanese of 1) the destroyer" Bedovy "and 2) the squadron of Nebogatov"

                  .. Lieutenant Leontiev showed .. when changing to Buiny stayed first upstairs .. going down at night I heard a conversation, as it turned out, the accused Kolong, Filippovsky, Semenov and the commander of the destroyer Kolomeytsev. .. Defendant Semenov vigorously stood for the raising of the flags of the Red Cross and the parliamentary, with which, for the sake of saving the admiral’s life, others agreed ..


                  (on Bedovoy) .. The 1st rank captain Colong then sent Lieutenant Leontyev to the admiral to report to the admiral about the appearance of enemy destroyers and the decision made by him, Kolong. Upon returning, Leontiev said that he had reported to the admiral, after which he was given the flag captain and was ordered to raise the flags (white and Red Cross) ..


                  It’s hard to glorify cowards, liars and traitors. But you, as I see it, are not afraid of difficulties.
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    29 December 2018 04: 54
                    0
                    Quote: Saxahorse
                    And now let me remind you of another source: E.V. Dubrovsky. "Cases about the surrender to the Japanese of 1) the destroyer" Bedovy "and 2) the squadron of Nebogatov"

                    And now I remind you of your chronic inability to work with documents, which I have repeatedly confirmed :)))
                2. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 29 December 2018 08: 59
                  +1
                  I would add that Semenov gave a subscription on non-participation in the war, therefore, a prisoner for him is an almost guaranteed death sentence. Because of a bureaucratic error, his name would not be on the list of appointments, he could not know.
                  1. Saxahorse
                    Saxahorse 30 December 2018 21: 33
                    -2
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    I would add that Semenov gave a subscription on non-participation in the war, therefore a prisoner for him is a practically guaranteed death sentence

                    And I remind you that I’m not retelling tales or rumors here, but quoting materials from a very specific criminal case regarding the fact that the destroyer Bedovy was captured without a fight. Even in the rotten imperial times, this was considered a serious crime.

                    Did you notice that it was Semenov who instigated Colong and Filippovsky to surrender? But as soon as the matter seriously smelled "wall" he immediately, with a gray mouse, darted to the side. So this Mr. Semyonov of yours is not only a liar and a traitor, but also a purely human scoundrel.

                    And you, such a character, are selling us here in reliable sources! ?? Hands should be washed after such "sources" !!!
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      31 December 2018 01: 52
                      +1
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      And I remind you that I’m not retelling fairy tales or rumors here, but quoting materials from a very specific criminal case regarding the fact that the destroyer Bedovy was captured without a fight

                      Well, you have referred to "very specific" documents before. And they were piously convinced that they were right. And how did it end up? :)))
                    2. Senior seaman
                      Senior seaman 31 December 2018 09: 33
                      +1
                      And you, such a character

                      The debate was about whether Stark was on his flagship during the Port Arthur wake-up call or whether he was celebrating on the shore with his wife and a good half of the squadron officers.
                      I quoted from Semenov (moreover, he conveys the words of other officers, since he wasn’t in Arthur at that time.) And when Semenov didn’t arrange it as a source, I quoted from Kefeli (who was an eyewitness)
                      But instead of refuting or confirming the presence / absence of an admiral on your flagship, you started lengthy discussions about how bad Semenov is, which, to put it mildly, is irrelevant. Moreover, neither correct quotations, nor links followed ...
                      Hands should be washed after such "sources"

                      After talking with you, I usually do this.
  4. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 25 December 2018 09: 11
    +3
    As always, plus material yes good
    I was always tormented by the question - why did they leave "Bogatyr" in Vladivostok? He was supposed to perform his functions as a long-range reconnaissance officer with the squadron, and he was assigned to a detachment of large armored cruisers ... Purely hypothetically, "Bogatyr" with "Askold" and "Bayan" could easily compete with the Virgo detachment ... And so in the PA with that the diversity of the different types of cruisers, they were clearly not enough to create a normal, balanced squad, capable of solving local problems. And if you also take into account the stupidity of the command staff, diluted with the incomparable order "to protect the ships", then you should not be surprised at the mess that existed in the PA at the beginning of the war.
    The mediocre (one can say that it is criminally) the lost "Boyarin", "heroically" prosh ..., sorry, the lost "Varyag" sort of a detachment of cruisers - it could be safely used in the same close reconnaissance and to confront any Japanese cruisers except for armored ones), sent to an honorable exile to run errands "Bogatyr" (gloriously planted on stones and thus excluded from the whole war) ... All this led to the fact that "Novik" was a kind of tampon in all holes, which could not but affect the technical condition of the ship's machines ...
    We will look further drinks
    Yours faithfully, hi
    1. anzar
      anzar 25 December 2018 14: 41
      +2
      As always, plus material - definitely!
      I was always tormented by the question - why did they leave "Bogatyr" in Vladivostok?

      Me too. In Vladivostok, which thread of the goddesses would have looked better (in terms of autonomy) if you need to have 4 cruisers there ...
      ... the lost "Varyag" ... Earlier you wrote that if Novik had been in his place, he would not have had time to escape either, although we see that one was getting closer to everyone. fleet and managed to return. It is interesting if there was a Bayan in Chemulpo (rather the Varyag was of the Bayan type), but then probably Jap. the outfit of forces would be different.
      Best regards hi
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 25 December 2018 15: 31
        0
        Quote: anzar
        Previously, you wrote that, if Novik was in his place, I would not have managed to escape either, although we see that he was close to one another. fleet and managed to return.

        So you do not equal the conditions of the open sea and the conditions of the fairway at Chemulpo yes In Chemulpo, any ship would in any case pass before the formation of the enemy. IN ANY wink Just due to speed, the time spent under fire can be less ... But you can’t avoid a collision ...
        But in the open sea, speed already matters when there is enough space to avoid the same clash hi
    2. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 25 December 2018 20: 03
      +2
      A colleague, whatever one may say, a high-speed cruiser was needed in the VOK, because the Rurikovichs did not impress with their high-speed data. The choice is generally not great. Cruisers of the second rank were not suitable due to insufficient autonomy. "Goddesses" because of the speed. "Varyag" due to problems with the CMU. Remained "Askold" and "Bogatyr". The cruiser Stemann has somehow become attached to the VOK since the time of Stackelberg, so the choice, in fact, is not great.
      I will also say that if the "Bogatyr" had been "Askold", his remains would still rest on Cape Bruce request
      1. bd.
        bd. 25 December 2018 20: 26
        -2
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        like it or not, the wok needed a fast cruiser

        Like it or not, wok in the form in which it existed is wrecking. Or dementia.
        Collect ships of individual action (by design and by design) into one herd, calling them a "detachment", I do not know who one should be.
        And the hero there was not sewn in a mare’s tail. However, they were all there.
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        I will also say that if the "Bogatyr" had been "Askold", his remains would still rest on Cape Bruce

        Askold was a short-range cruiser. Bogatyr or Varangian, here are the long-range armored cruisers. But the Varyag local operators had already managed to finish by the time. Yes, and it is useless in battle with the warships of the enemy (except for every little thing). Therefore, only the Hero. But he didn’t run too long.
        But there is a plus. With the range of the Bogatyr’s action, the wok would not show beyond the Sea of ​​Japan and the nose.
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 26 December 2018 19: 40
          +1
          Bd, you did not read the materials of Andrey about the Varyag? He examined everything in detail
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 26 December 2018 19: 59
            +3
            Do not mark pearls in front of pigs and do not throw shrines to dogs.
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. vladcub
              vladcub 26 December 2018 21: 21
              +1
              It seems from scripture?
              1. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 27 December 2018 10: 00
                +1
                From the Sermon on the Mount.
                Gospel of Matthew.
                1. vladcub
                  vladcub 27 December 2018 17: 21
                  0
                  So I was not mistaken
          2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            26 December 2018 20: 47
            +2
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            Do not tag pearls in front of pigs

            Entirely and fully support the respected senior sailor :)
          3. RX.
            RX. 26 December 2018 20: 57
            -3
            Quote: vladcub
            Bd, you did not read the materials of Andrey about the Varyag? He examined everything in detail

            Andrew reviewed?
            He probably could. If only I had a little understanding in warships in particular and in the navy as a whole.
            But he does not understand this. Therefore, he could not consider anything in principle.
            And he could easily make a bunch of empty phrases, read from the same level of "specialists". Which he did.
            PS. Andrei does not even know which class of ships the Varangian belonged to. And what class of ships did Asama belong to. What to talk about next?
      2. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 25 December 2018 20: 42
        +1
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        A colleague, whatever one may say, a high-speed cruiser was needed in the VOK, because the Rurikovichs did not impress with their high-speed data. The choice is generally not great. Cruisers of the second rank were not suitable due to insufficient autonomy. "Goddesses" because of the speed. "Varyag" due to problems with the CMU. Remained "Askold" and "Bogatyr".

        Um, that sounds like a plausible explanation. Now let's look at the wok task
        The main task of the cruisers, defined by the last instruction of E. A. Alekseev of December 27, 1903, was to divert the enemy fleet from the beginning of hostilities into the northern part of the Sea of ​​Japan and thereby balance the forces operating under Port Arthur. The degree of success depended on the "enterprise of our cruisers and the decisiveness of their actions" in the Sea of ​​Japan, where it was necessary to destroy transports with troops and military cargo, coastal vessels and coastal structures. To repulse the enemy cruisers and destroy them, only the entire squad should go to sea. Parking in Vladivostok was allowed only for the time of replenishment of stocks, which should have been prepared in advance for the next arrival of cruisers.

        If we take into account the fact that the cruisers should pull off some of the Japanese armored cruisers, then being in the Bogatyr detachment is somehow justified. And then, in the event of a collision, the five-hour battle (which took place in the Korea Strait), he would not have pulled out. In the best case, it would be at a distance or would help “Rurik” to fight off “Naniwa” and “Takachiho” exactly until the return of the main forces of the Japanese. And the game of cats and mice with Kamimura's squad would sooner or later end in a fight. The reality is that the Bogatyr would have held out far fewer than the larger cruisers. You perfectly understand this.
        Now let's look at the actions on communications. If large VOK cruisers can still be considered as raiders, for which they, in fact, were created, as evidenced by their cruising range ("Rurik" - 6700 miles by 10 knots, "Russia" - 7700 by 10 knots, "Thunderbolt "- 8100 at 10 knots.), Then how can the Bogatyr be useful in such cruising with its 4900 miles at 10 knots ??
        In my personal opinion, the cruiser was absolutely useless for the detachment in any of the tasks assigned to the wok. If only in the role of a kind of high-speed robber where is the thread off the coast of Korea and then, because of the weather or his own sluggishness, he would not have been accidentally under fire searching for him armored cruisers (even it would be enough to single out one for this). It would be unlikely that the Japanese would have set aside the high-speed cruisers Virgo for this. Four BrKr Kamimura would have dealt ... yes
        So the question is - why do the VOK cruisers need a fast reconnaissance cruiser hanging in the air? The Bogatyr would be much more useful in PA ...
        I repeat, my personal opinion smile hi
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          25 December 2018 22: 09
          +3
          Quote: Rurikovich
          If we take into account the fact that the cruisers are supposed to pull off some of the Japanese armored cruisers, then being in the Bogatyr detachment is somehow justified.

          Not that somehow, but completely justified. The wok was done for one purpose, to draw back the enemy’s forces, which he did - the Yapi were forced to pull back the 4 RBKR Kamimura which, in theory, were much stronger than the 3 RBKR and use a certain number of armored cruisers.
          Thus, the wok was supposed to operate in waters where more powerful and faster forces were waiting for it (we won’t know who the Russian admirals were and how they walked), here you can’t do without a scout.
          Quote: Rurikovich
          And then in the event of a collision, a five-hour battle (which occurred in the Korean Channel), he would not have pulled.

          And he should not have.
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Now we will consider actions on communications.

          Due to the fact that it makes sense to consider them only in conjunction with the main task, they did not really need a very large range
          Quote: Rurikovich
          "Thunderbolt" - 8100 at 10 knots.

          Well, really a lot less
          1. bd.
            bd. 25 December 2018 22: 43
            -3
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The wok was done for one purpose, to draw back the enemy’s forces, which he did - the Yapi were forced to delay the 4 RBKR Kamimura

            And if he hadn’t pulled it back, would these suffocations with all their relics have piled on Retvizan, Tsesarevich and Poltava?
            It is a pity that they did not pile on. Maybe at least a few Japanese ships would be sunk in battle.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            here you can’t do without a scout.

            Oh, we got some strategists here.
            And what would be the role of a scout? How would he discover the Japanese early in the morning, who would then sink Rurik?
            You have completely lost touch with reality. I suffered for a long time, was silent, but this is already above the roof.
            In addition, take an interest in the range of the Bogatyr. What kind of partner is he?
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Well, really a lot less

            Really 7850 NM at 10 knots. It's not much less.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              26 December 2018 07: 24
              +3
              Quote: Bd.
              Oh, we got some strategists here.

              No, only high fat trolls
              Quote: Bd.
              I suffered for a long time

              There is no need to endure, people have not in vain invented toilets. Which you are clearly confused with the Internet
            2. vladcub
              vladcub 26 December 2018 19: 53
              +1
              [i "we got strategies here" - About yourself?
              Andrei expressed his opinion, and if you can, refute reasonably
              1. RX.
                RX. 26 December 2018 21: 05
                -3
                Quote: vladcub
                Andrei expressed his opinion, and if you can, refute reasonably

                Do you think I’ll be going to conduct a short course of educational program now? You are mistaken.
                I can make fun of local "specialists". But I will not teach anyone or anything. They are ungrateful, they will not appreciate it.
                Let them wander further in their darkness. These are their problems.
                1. vladcub
                  vladcub 26 December 2018 21: 30
                  0
                  If without arguments, then - "slander and blasphemy" as they said at the time of Peter 1
          2. Rurikovich
            Rurikovich 25 December 2018 23: 27
            +1
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And he should not have.

            Something to me, namesake, the reconnaissance cruiser with the cruisers somehow does not look convincing ... what Suppose, hypothetically, "Bogatyr" would have been present at the battle on August 1. Suppose, being from the side of the appearance of the Japanese, an hour earlier, I would have warned Jessen about the appearance. The question is - what would make it different? The battle would still be fought by three large cruisers, the "Bogatyr" would be loitering nearby. Consequently, as from a combat unit, there is almost zero benefit request VOK that with the "Bogatyr", that without him fulfilled its task - pulled back the cruiser Kamimura. But in skirmishes with the PA in confrontation with the "dogs" Virgo would have been more useful.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Due to the fact that it makes sense to consider them only in conjunction with the main task, they did not really need a very large range

            If we take into account only the Sea of ​​Japan, then yes, I will agree with you here.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Well, really a lot less

            This is from the same song as the speed of the "Asamoids" did not correspond to the passport ones, but nevertheless, in the battle on August 1, the Japanese were constantly catching up with the Russians.
            Is there data on bunkering cruisers before each sailing?
            And do not forget that a lot of other circumstances affect the cruising range, such as the quality of coal, sailing conditions, currents, speed modes, so the actual cruising range could be less not only for the "Thunderbolt" wink smile hi
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              26 December 2018 07: 20
              +2
              Quote: Rurikovich
              Something to me, namesake, a reconnaissance cruiser with cruisers somehow does not look convincing ... what Suppose, hypothetically, "Bogatyr" would have been present during the battle on August 1. Suppose, being from the side of the appearance of the Japanese an hour earlier, I would have warned Jessen about the appearance. The question is - what would make it different?

              Maybe nothing, maybe everything.
              To begin with, the wok would not be where it ended up - it just didn’t have to go this far, it could well be located to the north, and Bogatyr should be sent to meet with the squadron. As a result, it could turn out that the Japanese would not cut off the wok from Vladivostok, well, and this completely changes the whole alignment for the battle, which under such conditions could not even take place.
              Quote: Rurikovich
              Is there data on bunkering cruisers before each sailing?

              There is, for example, Kuznetsov http://tsushima.su/RU/libru/i/Page_6/page_13/biblkuzgrom/
              indicating that from the experience of the first trips with a full supply of coal, the range was 5000-5500 miles
      3. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 25 December 2018 22: 31
        +1
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        Whatever one may say, a high-speed cruiser was needed in the VOK, because the "Rurikovich" did not strike with high-speed data.

        But why actually insert one high-speed, 18-node cruiser into an 24-node detachment? So that he could escape from his admiral if he smells fried? What is the point of tying Bogatyr to low-speed cruisers?
        1. arturpraetor
          arturpraetor 25 December 2018 22: 33
          +3
          But what's the point of tying high-speed scouts to low-speed battleships in the framework of one operational compound? laughing The exact same logic.
          1. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 25 December 2018 22: 40
            -1
            Quote: arturpraetor
            The exact same logic.

            So it is not there either. For the sole purpose of saving the resource of the "big uncle", small change is kept on the parcels. Look at the Japanese scouts. They are not very fast.

            And the Bogatyr in terms of firepower was not much inferior to the Ruriks. With the same success they could drive Diana or Pallas. And better than Boyarina.
            1. arturpraetor
              arturpraetor 25 December 2018 23: 22
              +6
              Quote: Saxahorse
              So she and there is not particularly.

              The fact that you do not see her and the fact that she is not there are three big differences.

              Reconnaissance was an important component of tactics and strategy, both on land and at sea in any era. In the indicated epoch at sea, reconnaissance with battleships was to be carried out by cruisers, which were required to have a speed of at least a few knots higher than that of battleships, "Bogatyr" with "Rurikoids" in this regard looks appropriate. Let me explain in more detail - there is smoke on the horizon, while we get closer and see what's what, and who is there, a lot of time will pass, and then we still have to decide whether we need to get closer to them or not. A ship that can quickly dash to approach and return will greatly reduce the reaction time. Moreover, a fast ship in the vanguard (to the side where enemy ships are expected to appear) allows you to know in advance about their approach, gaining precious minutes. The question of the "Bogatyr" and the VOK is precisely the question of the scout and the operational connection of heavy ships, another thing is that for the scout "Bogatyr" was perhaps too big, and the "Rurikoids" as a combat core of the compound are very ... peculiar.

              Or do you undertake to deny the need for reconnaissance at sea in the interests of fleet core formations (heavy artillery ships)?
              1. Saxahorse
                Saxahorse 25 December 2018 23: 40
                0
                For reconnaissance, it is not necessary to rush around; usually on the march, reconnaissance is advanced in advance in the right directions. And returning is not always necessary; you can give a signal. What's on the radio that the flags that the rocket .. Why is there an advantage of 5-6 knots and such a size? Many times, the already mentioned Japanese advise Chihaya had a modest 1500 tons and 21 knots. And enough without problems.

                And on the other hand, to collect the Athlete with Askold and Novik, and now there is already a good detachment which is difficult for the dogs to stop and the Asamam cannot catch up with.
                1. arturpraetor
                  arturpraetor 26 December 2018 00: 35
                  0
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Why is there an advantage in 5-6 nodes and such sizes? Many times, the already mentioned Japanese advice note Chihaya had a modest 1500 ton and 21 unit. And enough without problems.

                  It is desirable to have superior speed in order to quickly complete the task "to dash around with a hog and see what is there", or "to dump as quickly as possible from this place." As for the "Bogatyr" as a scout at the VOK, it was, as it were, generally built for something else, which does not negate its possible use in this role. But yes, I agree that it strongly resembles a microscope for hammering nails, but there were problems with fairly fast cruisers (as well as cruisers in general) in the Pacific Ocean.
                  1. bayard
                    bayard 26 December 2018 04: 09
                    +1
                    All these disputes resemble discussions about Trishkin Kaftan. The problem was that Russia lost in strategic planning. She had the opportunity, time and resources (money) to rebuild and gather the necessary fleet forces by 1903, but ... Witte (the evil genius of Russian history of that time) ... SAVED money. They were assigned the time to complete the Pacific Fleet by mid-end 1904. But Japan was already ready at the end of 1903. She took advantage of her window of opportunity and won by defeating the 1st and 2nd Pacific squadrons separately. With the full assistance of B. Britania and the United States.
                    The initiative in that war entirely belonged to Japan, and the order "to protect the ships" was correct, because until the repair of Retvizan and Tsarevich was completed, the main forces of the fleet could not act against the main forces of Japan. And losing a few cruisers in risky operations ... was unacceptable.
                    At the same time, there was a need to counter the Japanese landing ... All the stars in that war were against Russia. Alas.
                    1. Saxahorse
                      Saxahorse 26 December 2018 22: 46
                      0
                      Quote: bayard
                      The initiative in that war entirely belonged to Japan, and the order "to protect the ships" was correct, because until the repair of Retvizan and Tsarevich was completed, the main forces of the fleet could not act against the main forces of Japan.

                      Passive strategy always leads to defeat. There was a reason to stand and do nothing even after the repair of both Retvizan and Tsesarevich. The only chance was in continuous pressure on the enemy in all possible ways. If you have not forgotten, RI arranged even a complete exchange of the 1st TE for the Japanese main forces.
                      1. bayard
                        bayard 27 December 2018 02: 06
                        0
                        So they tried to conduct active actions, but the fleet's light forces were sorely lacking. Neither cruisers, nor destroyers.
                        The Vladivostok detachment in general had to distract the enemy's armored cruisers with maneuvers and demonstrations ... It was necessary to drag out the time until the repair of Retvizan and Tsarevich was completed, or better, until the arrival of the 2nd squadron. Pulling is not passive, but "to protect the ships." And after the death of Makarov and the loss of Sevastopol ... In general, there was no naval commander (with a capital letter) able to wage such a war, no forces to counter the main forces of the enemy. And the battle in the Yellow Sea confirmed this.
                        The Japanese had a huge advantage in light cruisers and destroyers, and this is reconnaissance, blockade, initiative in choosing the time of attack or counteracting it from our side. The sea remained behind the enemy and, as a result, Mukden and the blockade of Port Arthur.
                        Port Arthur had a chance to wait for help from the 2nd squadron, but ... there was a provocation (really - a night attack by Japanese destroyers built in Germany) and Rozhdestvensky had to drag around Africa to Tsushima instead of 3-4 months be in pa ...
                        Through the hands of Japan in that war, the entire aggregate West fought with us - diplomacy, the press, finance, military supplies, intelligence and ... a demonstration of intentions to provide military assistance to Japan from England. Even if the 2nd squadron had time and the Japanese fleet would have suffered a defeat ... the English fleet would have come to his aid (according to the Anglo-Japanese "secret" treaty) and they would have taken away the victory from us ... as in the case of the last Balkan war. The West was ONE against us.
                        The whole Far Eastern adventure into which the rogue Witte pulled into RI was started for the sake of this humiliation of Russia. It was necessary to first build the Trans-Siberian Railway and strengthen Vladivostok ... The only chance was if the fleet had been built and assembled in the Pacific Ocean before the end of 1903. , the Port Arthur naval base was built and strengthened, the garrison was strengthened, and (lo and behold) the issue of protectorate over Korea was resolved (the work was conducted and not without success).
                        But Witte did everything to prevent this.
                      2. vladcub
                        vladcub 27 December 2018 17: 35
                        +1
                        Don't you think that - from the opera: "If mushrooms grew in your mouth"? As for S. Yu. Witte, it is difficult to say something unequivocally. In general, not Witte, but Bezobrazov, Vlad (?) For the sake of momentary profit, RI was framed
                      3. vladcub
                        vladcub 27 December 2018 18: 10
                        0
                        I apologize, but the "piece of iron" misrepresented the surname: Abaza, (it seems the admiral) but the surname is rare and does not know the tablet
                      4. bayard
                        bayard 28 December 2018 01: 19
                        0
                        The main evil genius was still Witte (a relative of the French Rothschilds through his grandmother). It was he who dragged the Republic of Ingushetia into this adventure ... The Chinese Prime Minister arrived in St. Petersburg to ask for the protection of the Republic of Ingushetia against Japan (after Nikolai and Wilhelm were the second to shugan Japan from the captured Port Arthur and Quantun) offering a naval base in China to choose from. Witte requested Port Arthur, Kwantung Region. as a fortified area and the right to build the Chinese Eastern Railway to supply naval bases and trade with an extraterritorial railway track 10 km wide. All at that time screamed - "what a fine fellow." But that was the trap. The Trans-Siberian Railway was just being built then, Vladivostok was not only not equipped, but also not really inhabited, there was no connection with the rest of the empire except by sea and ocean ... And yet - we VERY MUCH offended JAPAN. Those declared that “we took Arthur with a sword and it was our legitimate trophy, and Russia cheated” ... and began to prepare revenge for the patronage of England. And Russia helped them in this ... again Russia represented by Count Witte - having paid 50 million gold rubles for rent in advance to China, he gave the same amount to Japan as reparations, and Japan already used these funds to build a fleet in England.
                        When the question arose about the construction of the Pacific Fleet in Russia, more powerful than in Japan and no later than 1903 (because the schedule for the construction of the Japanese fleet was known) Witte on the state. he jumped out of his pants that "there is no money", it is necessary to save, it is not necessary to strengthen the naval base, but it is better to build the Dalniy commercial port (funded by the state and merchants) for the commercial success of the Far Eastern venture. He assured that Japan "would not dare" ... cut funds for orders of warships abroad (in the same America, "Kramp and Sons" were ready to build at a time 2 battleships (of the Retvizan type), 2 cruisers (of the Varyag type) and up to 20 destroyers ) ... and their shipyards were constantly underfunded - again from the "economy". The term for the formation of the Pacific Fleet was set - until the end of 1904.
                      5. bayard
                        bayard 28 December 2018 01: 59
                        0
                        Although it was known for sure that Japan's shipbuilding program ended in 1903. That is, Japan was given a window of opportunity 1903 - mid-1904. ... And they used this window. Moreover, Witte in every possible way delayed the dispatch of ships to P. Arthur, inventing all sorts of eccentricities for them, such as "dragging numbered destroyers with them in tugboats", the displacement of which was only 120 tons and which leaked on the wave, flew into the stern of the towing battleships, causing constant stops, repairs, waiting for the weather. In the end, a detachment of ships with these rarities got stuck with repairs in Suez and was almost late for the beginning of the war ... And in the detachment there were "Tsarevich", "Bayan, Victory ... Witte, with his telegrams to Suez, demanded" not to move anywhere without numbered destroyers "... Delayed the exit of the 2nd squadron ... Surrendered the position of Russia in Portsmouth, against the will of the emperor ... Created all the prerequisites for the" First Russian Revolution "of 1905
                        When the role of Witte was revealed during the proceedings of the results of the Russian war ... he fled from Russia and crap already from abroad ...
                        ... The battleships of the 2nd squadron could be completed before the end of 1903 with proper funding and arrive in P. Arthur on time, at least some of them ...
                        All these "if-only" speak about one thing - sabotage and sabotage. Everything was done so that Russia was unprepared for war and suffered a shameful defeat. And the main author of this sabotage is Witte.
                        And the role of some admirals ... is either stimulated stupidity or sabotage with a corruption component, but it is secondary.
                      6. vladcub
                        vladcub 28 December 2018 16: 48
                        0
                        A. Ignatiev in the book: "Fifty years in the ranks," calls the culprits: I Abaza and Bezobrazova. Denikin and in textbooks call these names everywhere
                      7. bayard
                        bayard 28 December 2018 19: 51
                        0
                        This is because the analysis of causal factors did not take into account the administrative / financial components. Fleet historians simply did not pay attention to it, because the admiral's signatures on the fleet development programs were.
                        In the "History of Russian battleships" (in my opinion Bunich), Witte's role is not so much said as simply quoted - telegrams, orders, orders, inquiries. Bunich himself (like any liberal) does not evenly breathe towards Witte and apparently trying to glorify Witte once again ... too often he quotes documents with his signature and quotes ... And they speak for themselves ... in direct words of "the father of peoples" : "What is this? Stupidity? Or sabotage." It was this book that drew my attention to the person of Witte and his role in the downfall of the Empire. But there are also sources with a very thorough study of this issue, for example, in the books of OA Platonov ... yes, there are many of them, but I will not cite all of them.
                        And the admirals, as always, extended their \ legs \ plans on \ clothes \ budget. Plus corruption, stupidity, self-confidence, suggestibility. They are like a cyan sucker - they spoke.
                        "Well, how dare these Japs? We have, after all, in half a year, 5 newest battleships will arrive in service, and the Oslyabya is in Suez, and the cruisers are all different ... Yes, we will smear it with one left macaque!" The Japanese had a window - half a year at the beginning of the war. And they used it. They themselves were scared, but behind them stood the entire aggregate West, and behind Russia ... Witte, happily rubbing his sweaty palms.
        2. bd.
          bd. 25 December 2018 22: 44
          0
          Quote: Saxahorse
          What is the point of tying Bogatyr to low-speed cruisers?

          But what's the point of knocking raiders (single ships) into a heap and sending them somewhere with that heap?
          Stupidity on stupidity.
          1. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 25 December 2018 22: 51
            +1
            Quote: Bd.
            But what's the point of knocking raiders (single ships) into a heap and sending them somewhere with that heap?

            Here just the meaning can be seen. Opponents against a bunch of raiders will have to send a much larger bunch of hunters. If we are talking about critical communications through which troops and equipment are being transferred, then there is no getting anywhere. You can’t pause and have to urgently hunt.
            1. bd.
              bd. 25 December 2018 23: 05
              0
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Opponents against a bunch of raiders will have to send a much larger bunch of hunters.

              Nope. Against 3 (I write conditionally) independent raiders need at least 6 hunters.
              Against 3 shot down in the raider squad, 4 are enough.
              This is not about wok. There were full-fledged raiders ... uh ... well, how would you say this. No one. For different reasons.

              A wok was objectively needed. But in the end, it was not a wok, but a laugh through tears. The composition was ridiculous.
              1. Saxahorse
                Saxahorse 25 December 2018 23: 12
                +1
                Quote: Bd.
                Against 3 shot down in the raider squad, 4 are enough.

                So in the end it happened. But the Japanese had to keep these four cruisers in the north all the time. Raiders in their pure form, like a lone hunter in the ocean, did not make sense there. And the group could break through the veil too light and cause trouble with military transports.
                1. bd.
                  bd. 25 December 2018 23: 29
                  0
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Raiders in their pure form, like a lone hunter in the ocean, did not make sense there.

                  Well, why? Raiding in the Pacific was justified. Yes, and cruising in the Sea of ​​Japan too. But not the ocean raiders who were part of the wok.
                  Unfortunately, due to their performance characteristics, VOK ships could not engage in coastal raiding (from the Pacific Ocean). Since the galoshes were still those. Including Stormbreaker.
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  And the group could break through the veil too light and cause trouble with military transports.

                  For this, in the Russian fleets there were battleships-cruisers Oslyabya and Peresvet. Forceful effect on the ships of the convoy (as a rule, armored carrier cruisers) and the convoy ships themselves, this was their holy duty. Which they did not do.
                  1. Saxahorse
                    Saxahorse 25 December 2018 23: 53
                    -1
                    Quote: Bd.
                    For this, in the Russian fleets there were battleships-cruisers Oslyabya and Peresvet. Force impact on convoy ships

                    I agree of course. But it is desirable to influence communication in the Korean Strait from two sides and in a coordinated manner. In order to disperse the enemy’s forces. In this sense, wok raids from the north could be very useful.

                    In reality, unfortunately, little has been done. The Japanese had enough opportunities to create complications, but alas :(
                    1. bd.
                      bd. 26 December 2018 00: 28
                      -1
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      The Japanese had enough opportunities to create complications, but alas :(

                      Opportunities to create problems for the Japanese were enough. And there were ships for this.
                      But other crews and another command were needed. But all this was not. RIF in the form in which he was, was not combat-ready. In the broad sense of the word.
                      Moreover, he was not really efficient ever.
                      - He was not really fighting at Sinope. Nakhimov, having seen enough of the actions of the Russian fleet against the Turkish peasant reservists (training squadron), considered it best to drown him during the Crimean War and not go to sea. Although the ships he had were quite modern at the time.
                      - He was not combat-ready during the REV.
                      - He was not combat ready during WW1.
                      - Was not really combat-ready RKKF during WW2.
                      - The Soviet post-war fleet was not really combat ready.
                      He will not really be combat ready even now. If you do not maintain the tone of a small (this is important, extremely small) elite corporation of professional military sailors. And above all, submariners.
                2. RX.
                  RX. 26 December 2018 21: 28
                  -2
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Raiders in their pure form, like a lone hunter in the ocean, did not make sense there.

                  Only in this form could the RIF fight in the NIF. Since for this in the 1st TOE there were specially built ships for this.
                  I do not mean only individual raiders, these could be raider groups. But not in the form of a wok, that’s what should not have happened.
                  But what was not in the 1st TOE (and the RIF as a whole) was the EDB. Rather, they were, but there was only one normal, Retvisan (although it was carried out according to the EDB-Raider scheme, saving money on armor, you know). He was noticeably weaker than Hatsuse or Sikishima or Mikas or Asahi (Japanese EDBs are given on a scale of decreasing power), but stronger than any of the Russian ships.
                  Because of the unsuccessful (for those years) reservation scheme, Cesarevich was in the borderline between normal and old EDBs (Fuji, Yashima, Poltava). The victory was originally built as the old 2nd class EDB (with such performance characteristics). But still the EDB.
                  All. The rest of the disabled RIF as EBR were listed only on paper. Including "the latest, Borodino class".
                  Of course, the Japanese smashed all these old buckets with nuts to smithereens. But there are still dreamers who "see clear chances of winning" the buckets over full-fledged Japanese (British) EBRs. They are just funny, these visionaries.
    3. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 25 December 2018 22: 27
      0
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Purely hypothetically, "Bogatyr" with "Askold" and "Bayan" could easily compete with the Virgo detachment ... And so in the PA, with the variegation of the different types of cruisers, they were clearly not enough to create a normal, balanced detachment capable of solving local problems ...

      Good question by the way. It would seem logical and obvious that in one detachment it is worth picking up ships with similar driving characteristics. However, no. Admirals of the Republic of Ingushetia without batting an eye set up 24 knot Askold with 19 knots. Diana, The same 24 knot hero with 18 knot Rurik. A riddle however.
  5. NF68
    NF68 25 December 2018 18: 42
    0
    Interesting article.
  6. Potter
    Potter 25 December 2018 21: 01
    +1
    The troubles of the fleet in the RYaV were largely due to the uncertainty with the types of cruisers in the upcoming war. The fleet was preparing most of all for a cruising war against British trade. To action on her communications. Starting with the Admiral General and the Duke of Edinburgh ending with the trinity of giants Rurik, Russia, Thunderbolt. With a large number of guns, but little adapted for squadron combat. In addition to the goddesses, 6 more similar ships were built, and instead of the pure cruiser Askold (which was originally planned to be repeated), a series of Bogatyrs went, in the figurative expression of commander Oleg Dobrotvorsky "with hands in boxing gloves and a naked torso" (well-protected artillery without an armor belt). For the Black Sea, the Cahuls were not at all obligatory, they did not have a worthy enemy, in fact, even in WWI.
    There is a bright spot in the form of the Bayan. But even with this superbly designed ship, it was possible to strengthen the main artillery in the same displacement (which was done in the PMV, putting pluses 1x203 and 4x152mm. The repeat of the Bayan type after the RPN is obviously wrong, it was already outdated then.
    And the Japanese fleet was preparing for a squadron battle involving armored cruisers. And Tsushima became a confirmation of the correctness of this approach.
    Even within the limits of the funds spent, by replacing the type of cruisers of 7 tonnes with 4 tonnes, it was possible to add to the fleet at least 3 ships of the "reinforced Bayan" type.
    But, by the way, this is an alternative story, I don’t want to go into it.
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 25 December 2018 23: 36
      +1
      Quote: Potter
      But even with this beautifully designed ship, it was possible to strengthen the main artillery in the same displacement (which was done in the PMV, putting plus 1x203 and 4x152mm.

      And how "Russia" and "Thunderbolt" were strengthened after the analysis of the RYAV! fellow Imagine that the Russians immediately realizing the uselessness of all small things up to 76mm cannons strengthened at least these two cruisers to the level of 1917 - the "Russia" on board from 8 - 203mm guns would have 6 barrels plus 7mm would be 152 - 4mm and 203 10mm. It would be a completely different conversation, if the ammunition was still adequate wink But these are all conversations from the series "if only, if only" smile
      Admirals thought differently before the REV, and therefore they turned out to be such ships yes hi
    2. RX.
      RX. 26 December 2018 21: 14
      -1
      Quote: Potter
      And the Japanese fleet was preparing for a squadron battle involving armored cruisers.

      But nothing that the armored cruisers, these are not squadron battle ships? And they actually had their own responsibilities.
      Quote: Potter
      reinforce main artillery

      What for? His "partridges" are armored cruisers-fighters (like the Varyag). For them, even a couple of such suffocators as the Russian 8 "cannon was quite enough.
      The alternative was 2x2x6 ", like Bogatyr's (they and Bayan are ships of the same purpose, but of different design). Probably this scheme would be better.
      Quote: Potter
      Tsushima became a confirmation of the correctness of this approach.

      Which one
      Quote: Potter
      Even within the limits of the funds spent, by replacing the type of cruisers of 7 tonnes with 4 tonnes, it was possible to add to the fleet at least 3 ships of the "reinforced Bayan" type.

      4000 tons, is it "reinforced bayan"? Are you sure about that?
      1. 27091965
        27091965 26 December 2018 22: 26
        0
        Quote: rx.
        But nothing that the armored cruisers, these are not squadron battle ships?


        Designer Setre Soliani thought otherwise.
        1. RX.
          RX. 26 December 2018 22: 34
          -2
          Quote: 27091965i
          Designer Setre Soliani thought otherwise.

          If you already know about Soliani (and apparently about the Orlando brothers, who for some reason in Runet are called one person, although "fratelli" is not a name, it is "brothers" in Italian), then you should know that Garibaldi are specific armored cruisers. The design is not the same as that of armored defenders, for example.
          These are "battleships for the poor" (unofficial name). Those. ships designed and built as cheaply as possible, but according to the patterns of real EBRs. Those. for those times, built according to the citadel scheme.
          The Japanese bought them to be used as armored defenders, but in fact they were sold to third world countries to be used as ersatz real EBRs. Somewhere they played the role of a class 2 EBR. Somewhere even grade 1. But one of their unofficial names was "Class 3 EBR".
          The Garibaldians were quite suitable for linear combat among themselves and even with the participation of the larger class 2 EBRs. They could wage a line battle with all sorts of old "nut buckets".
          But they were not suitable for a linear battle with a class 1 EDB.
          1. Rurikovich
            Rurikovich 27 December 2018 06: 45
            +3
            Quote: rx.
            Somewhere they played the role of a class 2 EBR. Somewhere even grade 1. But one of their unofficial names was "Class 3 EBR".
            The Garibaldians were quite suitable for linear combat among themselves and even with the participation of the larger class 2 EBRs. They could wage a line battle with all sorts of old "nut buckets".
            But they were not suitable for a linear battle with a class 1 EDB.

            Nikolasha, no matter how much you change shoes in the air, appearing under different letter combinations, the writing style gives you away laughing fool wassat
            My morning has already been done, my stomach even aches with laughter, reading pearls from your famous ship classification laughing laughing laughing
            Continue to cheer us up wink
          2. 27091965
            27091965 27 December 2018 10: 25
            +2
            Quote: rx.
            If you already know about Soliani (and apparently about the Orlando brothers, who for some reason in Runet are called one person, although "fratelli" is not a name, it is "brothers" in Italian), then you should know


            I know.

            Quote: rx.
            then you should know that the Garibaldians are specific armored cruisers.


            They became so thanks to the Italians.

            Quote: rx.
            The Garibaldians were quite suitable for linear combat among themselves and even with the participation of the larger class 2 EBRs. They could wage a line battle with all sorts of old "nut buckets".
            But they were not suitable for a linear battle with a class 1 EDB.


            ".....due to financial pressure, the construction of battleships was practically suspended. Therefore, the Italian naval authorities were forced to proceed with the construction of cruisers, protected and armed so that, if necessary, they could act with armadillos and take part in the battles of the fleet. Carlo Alberto and Garibaldi are representatives of this type,..... "N. Soliani, 1896.

            I think this is enough.
            1. RX.
              RX. 27 December 2018 11: 57
              +1
              Quote: 27091965i
              so that, if necessary, they can act with armadillos and take part in the battles of the fleet. Carlo Alberto and Garibaldi are representatives of this type .....

              You never know what Soliani wrote. What is the significance of his records in general? You give me an example of Grabin’s memoir. Or the dreamer Guderian.
              Memoirs, this is a subspecies of unscientific fiction. Everyone writes that he wants and pulls the blanket over himself.
              1. Can you remember the battles of fleets equipped with a first-class EDB using Garibaldians?
              2. It is not clear what battleships Soliani had in mind. And what "battles of the fleet". The Garibaldis are battleships in their own right. And the asams are armadillos. And the Russian raiders, also battleships.
              1. 27091965
                27091965 27 December 2018 13: 26
                +1
                Quote: rx.
                Can you remember the battles of fleets equipped with a class 1 EDB using the Garibaldians?


                The Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905.



                Quote: rx.
                Everyone writes that he wants and pulls the blanket over himself.


                " The Garibaldi cruiser is, in my opinion, an exceptionally well-designed ship, the inspection of this ship confirmed my opinion that the time had come when it became necessary to create cruisers for the fleet, which should be able to take part in the battles of the fleet as additions to armadillos. Until now, the generally accepted concept has been that modern cruisers comply with and assume the responsibilities of frigates who previously served in the fleets. But, while frigates in the old days did not take part in battleship battles, with rare exceptions, in modern conditions, there seems to be absolutely no reason why cruisers should stay away from the battle if they are designed and built in the image of the cruiser Garibaldi. "W. White British shipbuilder, from 1886 to 1903 served as chief builder of the fleet. 1896.

                I have given you the opinion of two famous shipbuilders. Who do you think I should believe you or the people who designed and created the series of armadillos and cruisers?
                1. RX.
                  RX. 27 December 2018 14: 02
                  -2
                  Quote: 27091965i
                  The Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905.

                  Nonsense. This was not the case. While the EBR remained in the RIF, the Garibaldians did not go to battle with them. There was no EBR in TOE 2 and 3. Generally. They were "EBR places". Or almost EBR (Borodino).
                  Quote: 27091965i
                  I have given you the opinion of two famous shipbuilders. Who do you think I should believe you or the people who designed and created the series of armadillos and cruisers?

                  In order to make such a choice, one must understand the essence of the issue. But the overwhelming majority of people do not understand this, compiling in themselves and passing off 2-3 "writers" as their opinions.
                  Who are these writers? Batalers, starpoms, designers of the 2nd category (sometimes the first one), it does not matter. They can all be mistaken, moreover, in good faith.
                  Let's move on to the Garibaldians and compare them with the Sikishim (only the main parameters):
                  1. Penetration of guns GK - 58% (20 cab), 49% (40 cab).
                  2. Fragmentation and high explosiveness - this is indicative; it makes no sense to compare, there are simply incomparable values.
                  3. VL protection - about 82%.
                  4. The GP is short, between normal armadillos and semi-armored ships (Nakhimov).
                  4. Security above OHL - 33-34%.
                  In terms of total power, the Garibaldians were inferior not only to Oslyaba / Relight, but even to Azuma, Yakumo, Iwate / Izumo. Even the old bucket of nuts, Navarin, was cooler than the Garibaldians. Not to mention Sisoe and other Petropavlovsk (2 pcs). And I listed to you the ships that the EDB (even 2 classes) were not at all.
                  If you understand the question, then what kind of squadron battle with a class 1 EDB can we talk about? This is nothing more than the fantasies of the authors you quoted.
                  Actually, of all the battleships (except the Ushakovs), only Asama / Tokiva, Nikolai, Alexander 2, Russian raiders and Bayan were second to Garibaldians in aggregate power. Nakhimov also forgot.
  7. Catfish
    Catfish 26 December 2018 00: 49
    +2
    Quote: Rurikovich

    Admirals thought differently before the REV, and therefore they turned out to be such ships
    Reply


    Good night, Andrey! hi
    I don’t remember who said it:
    Admirals always prepare for the past war
    wink

    And the Vladivostok detachment is criticized here in vain, they fulfilled their task as best they could. And it is not their fault that the war ended in defeat. Apparently, it could not end in anything else. But what is really striking is the monstrous "diversity" with a relatively small total number of ships in the Russian fleet!

    Thanks to the author for the interesting and informative material. As always. hi
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 26 December 2018 06: 51
      +1
      Quote: Sea Cat
      But what is really striking is the monstrous "diversity" with a relatively small total number of ships in the Russian fleet

      Greetings, Konstantin hi
      The point is that when they decided to create the Pacific Fleet, they placed orders with foreign companies. Therefore, with general requirements, the ships turned out to be so different. The advantage of this solution was that it was necessary to simply find a successful prototype from the proposed one for subsequent ones. And when it was chosen for each class, the bookmarks of large (relatively) series followed. The Tsesarevich became the prototype of five ships of the Borodino type, the Bogatyr - three more cruisers of this type, the same Novik was followed by the Zhemchug with the Emerald. By the end of 1905, as the Russians had planned, these ships would have ended up in the Pacific Ocean and we would have received at least something similar to what was planned. But the Japanese understood this and the war began in early 1904. request
    2. Potter
      Potter 26 December 2018 12: 58
      +3
      I agree with the assessment of the actions of the Vladivostok detachment. Even more, the benefit of cruising it on the communications of the Japanese was almost more than the standing of the battleships of the 1st squadron in Port Arthur. The mere sinking of Hitachi Maru’s transport with siege artillery, 18-280mm guns, played a role in delaying the start of shelling of the besieged fortress for a long time. But the sunken and prize ships on the account of the detachment are several pieces, and another component - the Japanese were constantly forced to keep 4 armored cruisers against the detachment.
  8. vladcub
    vladcub 26 December 2018 19: 59
    +1
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: Bd.
    Oh, we got some strategists here.

    No, only high fat trolls
    Quote: Bd.
    I suffered for a long time

    There is no need to endure, people have not in vain invented toilets. Which you are clearly confused with the Internet

    Andrey, you + ': well said