Armored decked lightning. Cruiser II rank "Novik". Cost / Efficiency Criterion

100
Mast and communications

Someone such a union may seem strange, but let's not forget that the main means of transmitting information between ships at the end of 19, the beginning of 20, were flag signals. And even during the First World War, radio stations were not yet completely reliable - in the same battle of Jutland, many sent radiograms did not reach their destination.



Oddly enough, in terms of communications, Novik does not deserve a single good word. He had only one mast, which created a whole set of problems. So, for example, A. Emelin indicates the impossibility of raising multi-flag signals, although it is not entirely clear why, in the author’s opinion, the presence of only one mast could complicate, but not prevent, an absolutely similar signal. In addition, one mast made it difficult to place a wireless telegraph antenna. There were other non-communication flaws - the difficulty of pulling out the clothes line, the lack of a second masthead light on the ship - the latter made it difficult at night to determine the cruiser’s course, creating a danger of collision. Moreover, according to A. Emelin, all these shortcomings were obvious at the time of the design of the ship and why the MTK did not require the addition of another mast - it is completely unclear. Perhaps, of course, it was a matter of fear of overload, we see that German designers strove for perfect minimization of weights, but in fairness we note that the Novik is far from the last "single mast" cruiser of the Russian Imperial fleet. So, already after the Russo-Japanese War, the armored cruiser Bayan with one mast was being built, the other cruiser, the Rurik, was originally designed as a two-mast, but during the construction process one of the masts was abandoned, etc. In general, it can be said that the reasons for installing only one mast are unclear, but this was not the optimal solution, creating the problems listed above.

Moreover, such a decision was in no way suitable for ships intended for service during a squadron. The fact is that, in addition to reconnaissance, small cruisers could play the role of repeating ships - the essence of this task was as follows. As you know, the ability to control the squadron of those times did not allow the admiral to carry out command from the middle of the system. The flagship necessarily had to go with the lead ship: it is interesting that the Japanese, who occasionally used the turns “all at once”, necessarily put the ship of the younger flagship in closing. Thus, the combat detachment was led by the flagship, and if the combat situation demanded a “all-suddenly” turn, then the direct control of the maneuvering was assigned to his immediate deputy and the most experienced commander (after the detachment head admiral).


Descent "Novik" on the water. The photographer managed to capture the moment when the cruiser had just started moving along the slipway


Thus, if the admiral wanted to give the command a flag signal, he, of course, raised it, but the problem was that this signal was clearly visible only from the next ship following the flagship. The third ship in the ranks saw this signal badly, from the fourth it was almost imperceptible. That is why according to the rules of that time, after the flagship raised the signal (say, for rebuilding), the ships had to rehearse it (that is, pick up the same on the files) and only then, when the commander made sure that the signal was noticed and understood by everyone, followed by the command "Run!". All of this took a lot of time, and it is not surprising that the admirals of those times preferred to control their personal example, since in the absence of other signals, the other ships had to follow the flagship, keeping their ranks.

However, of course, not all orders and instructions can be transferred by changing the course of the flagship. Therefore, there was a need for repetitious ships - such were to be located on the opposite side of the enemy from the squadron, and immediately duplicate the flagship signals - on a ship located outside the structure, these signals would be clearly visible along the entire line. The Novik, being a high-speed cruiser, could easily perform this function after the enemy squadron was within the direct line of sight of the main Russian forces, and the need for reconnaissance would have disappeared, but it was not enough for this alone.

And the situation with the radio station was just as bad. The “wireless telegraphy apparatus” onboard the ship provided a range of radio communications of no more than 15-17 miles (28-32 km), but at the same time raised banner flags interfered with its operation. At the same time, on the move, the wireless telegraph refused to work at all, as noted in the report of Stepan Osipovich Makarov (when he was the commander of the Pacific Squadron in Port Arthur), the governor of Ye.A. Alekseev and V.K. Vitgefta, Chief Inspector of the Mine Case, Vice Admiral K.S. Ostreletsky.

In general, strange as it may sound, the cruiser designed for the intelligence service was very poorly equipped for it.

Crew

There are also some ambiguities with his number, because 328 people are usually pointed out, including 12 officers. Nevertheless, A. Emelin in his monograph indicates that the cruiser during its transfer to the fleet was staffed with “three staff officers, eight chief officers, two mechanical engineers, 42 non-commissioned officers and 268 privates,” that is, 323 person No less interesting is that in the photo of the officers of the ship we can see the 15 people.

Armored decked lightning. Cruiser II rank "Novik". Cost / Efficiency Criterion


Studying the list of officers who served on Novik during its presence in the Russian Imperial Navy, we can conclude on their composition: commander, senior officer, auditor, navigator officer, artillery officer, four watch officers and watch officers, senior ship mechanic , bilge mechanic, junior mechanic, mine mechanic, ship's doctor, and all - 14 people, but this, again, is not accurate.

As for the accommodation conditions, the officers' cabins were comfortable and functional, but the conditions in which the rest of the crew was located differed from other cruisers of the Russian fleet for the worse. In those years, the classic bed of sailors was a suspended bed - a special type of hammock, which became very popular on the ships of the world. However, as N.O. von Essen:

“Strong heating of the deck adversely responds to people who, in the absence of space for hanging [beds], should sleep right on the deck, having under them several times folded tarpaulins and a bed: such an arrangement of people facilitates the acquisition of cold and does not give proper rest.”


Note that the heating of the deck was also due to the fact that the Novik designers, trying to make the ship as easy as possible, used linoleum to cover the decks, which, of course, never belonged to heat-resistant materials. But besides this, linoleum had a lot of flaws. The sun, the salty air, the heat from the cars and boilers, the loading of coal — all these were loads that the linoleum was unable to withstand for a long time. BUT. Von Essen noted that the linoleum on the residential deck had softened so much that it even had traces of a person walking along it, and of course, it was torn and quickly turned into rags. In Port Arthur, linoleum was replaced, but he quickly came to a complete disrepair, but did not have time to implement the proposal to stack asbestos sheets under it to prevent its heating.

But the real problem, of course, was linoleum on the upper deck. There, he was getting extremely slippery from getting wet, it was almost impossible to walk on the upper deck when it was raining or having a strong emotion, it was almost impossible - what can we say about shooting from guns or fighting for survivability! And, of course, the linoleum on the upper deck just as quickly turned into tatters (however, perhaps it was for the better).

Cruiser Scale Distribution

It must be said that the weight list of the Novik cruiser of the 2 rank is not quite clear. So, A. Emelin cites the following load of the ship’s masses, taken, apparently, from the “Schihau” reporting documents (in brackets - the percentage of normal displacement):

Normal displacement - 2 719,125 t (100%);

Enclosure - 1 219,858 T (44,86%);

Various equipment - 97,786 t (3,6%);

Machines and boilers - 790,417 t (29,07%);

Artillery - 83,304 t (3,06%);

Ammunition - 67,76 t (2,49%);

Coal - 360 t (13,24%);

Team with things - 49,5 t (1,82%);

Provisions for 6 weeks - 38,5 t (1,42%);

Freshwater on 8 days - 12 T (0,44%).

It seems that everything is clear, but in the materials of S.O. Makarov, there are other data - the case with the supply of 42,3%, mechanisms, boilers and water supply to them - 26,7%, armor - 10,43%, artillery with ammunition - 4,73%, mine armament - 3,36%. According to the author of this article, the data found in Stepan Osipovich is incorrect. The fact is that the sum of all the shares according to the loads of the masses gives 87,52%, respectively, only 12,48% remains for the fuel (coal). But the fact that the reserve of coal in the amount of 360 tons was taken into account for the normal displacement of the ship is known reliably and cannot be doubted. And if the indicated 360 tons make up the 12,48% of the normal displacement of the Novik, it turns out that this displacement itself amounts to 2 884,6 tons, and this figure does not appear in any sources.

It is interesting to compare the weight loads of the Novik cruiser with its “elder brothers” - big armored cruisers of the “Bogatyr” type.



Or rather, with “Oleg,” because of the distribution of the loads available to the author, his list in its structure corresponds to Novik more than others.

The specific weight of the Oleg hull in the normal displacement was 37,88%. Novik seems to have more (44,86%), but these are peculiarities in the compilation of weight lists: in the German statement, the armor deck was included in the hull mass, and in the Russian one it was taken into account under the item “booking”. Eliminating the armor deck (for “novikov” of domestic construction, “Pearls” and “Emerald”, its mass was 345 tons, and according to documents of S.O. Makarov - 294 tons), we get the share of the Novik case - 32-34% from normal displacement. And this, again, is an overestimated assessment, since, apparently, the Germans also appeared in the article “Corps” for the armor of the cabin and the pipes for it — there was simply no reservation for Novik. But in general, it can be stated that the corps regarding the Bogatyr project is greatly facilitated. Although, no doubt, thanks to the greater specific mass of the hull, the Oleg had an advantage over Novik in both seaworthiness and stability, as an artillery platform.

Novik’s machines and boilers are significantly lighter — due to the use of “miner” boilers, as well as due to lighter and more compact screws and shafts (it is clear that more than twice the heavy “Oleg” required “a little bit larger”) Novika had roughly 790,5 tons, at rated power 17 000 hp, while at Oleg, 1 200 tons at rated power 19 500 hp, That is, according to the specific power, Novika power plant ( 22,14 hp / t) slightly more than 36% exceeded that of Oleg (16,25 hp / t). But, despite this, the share of machines and boilers "Novik" was 29,07% "Novik", and only 18,63% - "Oleg." Here it is - pay for speed!

12,48% of normal displacement went to Novik’s reservation, and Oleg had 13,43%, but in practice this meant that Novik received only 345 tons of armor (including a little more), and Oleg 865 t. Is it any wonder that not only the armored deck on the “Oleg” turned out to be thicker (35-70 mm versus the 30-50 mm on the Novik), but chimneys and grain elevators above the armored deck were also booked on "Novik" was not at all). More spacious conning tower received a powerful 140 mm armor, and from 12 shells of the main caliber 8 were in towers and casemates. In fact, the placement of four guns in the towers was a very dubious innovation (different shooting speeds with deck and casemate guns, difficulties with centralized fire control), but if you consider this solution only in terms of protection, then of course the towers guns "Novik".

And, of course, the main thing is artillery armament. At Novik, artillery and ammunition accounted for 5,55% of normal displacement, or just slightly more than 151 ton. Moreover, there is a reasonable assumption that mine armaments were also included in the indicated 151 t (it was not separately allocated, and the total weight of the artillery mounts is much less than those indicated in the 83,3 t statement). At Oleg, the artillery (together with the weight of the tower mechanisms, but without tower armor) weighed 552 tons, and together with mine weapons - 686 tons, or 10,65% of the normal displacement! There is no doubt that the 12 * 152-mm and the same 75-mm “Oleg” guns (not counting the 8 * 47-mm, 2 * 37-mm and machine guns) exceeded the firepower of even two Novik cruisers.

Thus, we see that, despite the use of lighter boilers, despite the full relief of the hull and significant “gaps” in the booking of the relatively armored cruiser “Oleg”, the firepower was subjected to the maximum reduction (both in absolute and in relative terms) the ship. It was she who had to sacrifice for Novik's record speed.

Cost of construction


Novik in completion


The total cost of the 2-grade Novik armored cruiser was 3 391 314 rubles, including:

1. Hull (including the cost of combat and deck electric lighting and artillery feed) - 913 500 rub .;

2. Mechanisms and boilers - 1 702 459 rub .;

3. Armor - 190 578 rub .;

4. General equipment - 89 789 rub .;

5. Artillery - 194 808 rub .;

6. Artillery supply - 168 644 rub .;

7. Mine equipment and electrical engineering - 72 904 rub.

8. Mine supply - 58 632 rub.

I would like to note that the cost of the contract with the firm "Schihau" was a smaller amount - 2 870 000 rub., But it did not include artillery and mine weapons with supplies and ammunition, and besides, apparently, also cargo passing under the article "General equipment". If we sum up the cost of the hull, mechanisms and boilers, as well as armor from the above calculation, we get 2 806 537 rubles, which is extremely similar to the contract amount.

I would like to draw the attention of a respected reader to such a nuance. The cost of all cruiser artillery was 194,8 thousand rubles. but the cost of ammunition for them (hardly it was a question of more than double ammunition) - 168,6 thousand rubles. that is, almost as much as the artillery itself. This ratio demonstrates well how costly and complex ammunition production was in those years, and can provide insight (but certainly not an excuse) to the desire of our Maritime Department to reduce costs for this item in the cost of the maritime budget.

The cost of the Bogatyr armored cruiser, taken from the “All-Aid Report on the Maritime Office for 1897-1900 Years” “with mechanisms, armor, artillery, mines and combat supplies,” was 5 509 711 rubles. In this case, the comparison with “The Bogatyr” is correct, because both Novik and Bogatyr were built on German shipyards, that is, the difference in pricing and production culture is minimized. But the results of the comparison is difficult to judge unequivocally.

On the one hand, of course, Novik is much cheaper - its total cost is 61,55% of that of Bogatyr, but on the other, it turns out that Novik’s 3 and one 350-ton destroyer would have cost the Russian treasury even a little more than 2 Bogatyr. At the same time, even the Bogatyr surpasses the Novik 2, the Bogatyr’s speed, although lower than the Novik, is still higher than the vast majority of the world’s armored cruisers, combat stability is also higher, and the only indisputable advantage "Novikov" is that three ships of this type can be in three different places at the same time, and two "Bogatyr" lined up almost in the same money - only in two.

Even more dubious is the construction of Novik-class cruisers against the background of the Bayan armored cruiser. The latter, built at the shipyard of France, cost the Russian treasury 6 964 725 rubles, that is, about two "Novik". “Bayan” was also significantly inferior to “Novik” in speed - on tests, an armored cruiser could “reach out” to the 21 node, developing 20,97 knots. However, the Bayan was an armored cruiser with a turret arrangement of two 203-mm guns and a casemate - 152-mm, as well as a very powerful armor belt with a thickness of up to 200 mm.

In other words, both the Bayan and the Novikov couple could conduct reconnaissance and detect the enemy squadron. But it was dangerous for Novikam to take on a battle with enemy cruisers of a similar purpose, a pair of enemy cruiseers could well, if not destroy, then push them aside. But "Bayan" would not even notice such an opponent. "Bayan" not only could come in direct visibility with the enemy squadron, but for a long time to watch her, maintaining contact - and the enemy cruiser reconnaissance aircraft could not drive him away. For this, one would have to send large armored cruisers into battle, that is, to split up the battle formation, which was not very good near the enemy forces. The Bayan, with its powerful armor and well-protected artillery, was a warship extremely dangerous for any armored cruiser, but he could also support his main forces in artillery fighting without too much fear of return fire. Only 305-mm armadillo guns were really dangerous for him, but even under their shelling, he could still hold out for a while. But for Novik, any hit of a heavy projectile was fraught with critical damage.

However, two cruisers will always have a big advantage over one, simply because there are two of them, and they can solve problems in different places. In addition, there are still situations where high speed becomes crucial. But, again, speaking of speed - the cruiser "Askold", although it did not have such combat stability, which distinguished the cruiser type "Bogatyr", but obviously surpassed in this indicator "Novik", almost not inferior to the latter in speed (1-1,5 knots). Artillery "Askold" cost two "Novikov", and it cost less "Bogatyr" (5 196 205 rub). Who knows what was better for the fleet: two Askolds, or three Novikas?

If we compare the "Novik" with the destroyers, then everything is ambiguous. Four 350-ton destroyers that were built for Russia of the same “Shikhau” cost the treasury in 2 993 744 rubles, that is, one destroyer cost about 748 thousand rubles. (with weapons, of course). In this case, the German destroyers (type "Whale") were quite successful ships. Having 1 * 75-mm, 5 * 47-mm and three torpedo tubes with 381-mm caliber, "Whales" became one of the most heavily armed Russian "fighters". At the same time, the Germans were able to provide these destroyers with a half-tank, which had a great effect on their seaworthiness, and their speed exceeded the 27 nodes (on tests, of course, in everyday use it was less). It turns out that for the cost of one "Novik" one could build 4,5 of such destroyers, and how to say what is better here? In some situations, a cruiser would be more useful, in some - destroyers.

We have now compared the "Novik" with a very expensive fighter type "Kit". Domestic shipyards built 350-ton destroyers cheaper - the average price was 611 thousand rubles. But if you take 220-ton "destroyers of the Sokol type", then their price did not exceed 412 thousand rubles. It turns out that for one "Novik" it would be possible to build five and a half "350-ton" or eight "220-ton" destroyer!

In general, our preliminary analysis of the “Novik” on the “cost / effectiveness” scale (we can only talk about the final one when we study the combat path of this ship) says this. The Novik was, of course, cheaper than the “standard” Russian armored cruiser in the 6 000 - 6 500 with a displacement, but it was not certain that it was a cheap ship. Strictly speaking, it turned out this way - for the same money, one could build either a series of large armored cruisers, or one and a half times more “Novikov”, which were somewhat superior to Russian 23-node ships in speed, but categorically inferior to them in combat power and sustainability. Was the game worth the candle? At the end of our cycle, we will try to answer this question.

Construction and testing


"Novik" before running tests


As we said earlier, the construction of the Novik began in December 1899. At the end of February 1900, when the cruiser was officially laid down, its hull was already brought to the level of an armored deck. The launch of 2 took place on August of the same year, and on May 2, the ship reached the first tests, and they ended only on April 1901, 23. Thus, the slip-on period was approximately 1902 months, the completion was 7 months, but the tests the ships took almost a year - just from the moment of the start of work and before the entry of Novik into the Russian Imperial Navy, the year 9 and the month 2 passed.

Interestingly, the construction of the ship, on the one hand, was carried out with a purely German thoroughness: for example, the captain of the 2 rank of P.F. Gavrilov 1, who later became commander of a cruiser, and while he was in charge of supervising the construction of Novik and four more 350-ton destroyers, also ordered from Shikhau by the Russian fleet, was delighted with:

“The striking accuracy of the fit of the set of parts ... It can be safely said that until now, not a single spool of excess metal was brought onto the slipway, there is no chisel, all the holes exactly match”.


On the other hand, oddly enough, the German shipbuilders were not alien to such, recognized by many for purely Russian qualities, like sturmovshchina and the desire to "report before the holiday date." So, for example, the company was in a hurry to work in order to launch Novik into the water six months after its inception - and this was done only from a desire to involve in the solemn ceremony the emperors of Russia and Germany, who were to meet in May-June Danzig. But as soon as the meeting was postponed, as soon as the “extra-urgent” launch was canceled, the director of the company immediately “remembered” that it was more convenient to carry out the installation work on the stocks ...

The tests of the mechanisms of the newly built ship are not in vain called progressive - their power is increased gradually, in the course of several exits to the sea, checking how well they "behave" at consistently increasing load. But the representatives of “Shikhau”, apparently, were eaten up by impatience, therefore already at the time of the first exit, contrary to the generally accepted rules, they gave the 24 node. Nothing terrible happened, and 11 May 1902 g., During the second release of "Novik" they tried to give full speed. Alas, everything happened in full accordance with the proverb “Hurry up - make fun of people”: the cruiser developed 24,2 bonds. and got a breakage of the coupling of one of the screws. Subsequently, observing the construction of "Novik" his first commander P.F. Gavrilov wrote:

“The speeding up of machines allowed by the factory at the very first moves was the main cause of the prolonged tests and a number of different accidents.”


Of the seven exits to the sea in 1901, four ended with breakdowns of screws and machines. In mid-September, tests had to be interrupted due to weather conditions, due to strong autumn winds. In addition, Novik had several serious but not yet resolved problems: the presence of shells on the propeller shafts, the problems of flooding the stern cartridge cellar (instead of the set 15 minutes, it was “heated” by 53 min.) a significant movement of the hull in a horizontal plane about the middle of the length of the vessel, that is, near the room of the onboard machines. "

Naturally, all this required elimination, with such shortcomings the cruiser could not be accepted by the fleet, so the Novik had to stay for the winter in Germany. All of these problems were resolved and 23 April 1902. Novik completed the official tests successfully.

German magazine Die Flotte wrote:

“Upon finding out the results of the tests, it turned out that the cruiser Novik fully satisfies all the difficult conditions laid down in the contract and represents a successful type of warship, the speed of which was not yet reached with these dimensions. Novik is a masterpiece of German shipbuilding that every German and every German should be proud of. ”


Omitting the funny fact that the article appeared in the January issue of this reputable magazine, that is, before Novik completed the official tests, we have to completely agree with the opinion expressed in it. One can argue about the correctness of the tactical justification of this type of ship, but the fact that it really was a completely new type of high-speed cruiser, and its design and construction was a complex engineering task, which the German shipbuilders coped with "excellent" , no doubt.

To be continued ...
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  1. 0
    15 December 2018 05: 38
    Really with one mast not that. Why wasn’t there a mine officer in the carriage? Or an art officer was also responsible for mine weapons.
    1. +4
      15 December 2018 09: 53
      Quote: Conductor
      Why wasn’t there a mine officer in the carriage? Or an art officer was also responsible for mine weapons.

      Probably appointed later. In Port Arthur, he was Casimir Porebsky, the future rear admiral of the Russian and vice admiral of the Polish fleets.
    2. +13
      15 December 2018 15: 12
      Quote: Conductor
      Really with one mast not that.

      ==========
      Alas! You, dear "Conductor", as well as the author of the Author, "Andrey from Chelyabinsk" ("+" - for a good article for him !!) - did not understand why there was a desire for a "single-mast" scheme (with its inherent drawbacks including on a flag communication system - smoke from pipes could obscure the raised signal) ... And nevertheless, even after RYAV - in the Russian fleet - right up to World War I - the tendency (mentioned by Andrey) to build ships with ONE mast continued ...
      And "the little chest just opens" .... The thing is that in those days the enemy's ship was discovered first - by smoke, and then - by the TOP OF THE MAST !!! And precisely - the DISTANCE between the tops of the masts and the direction of the smoke (taking into account the direction of the wind) and allowed (albeit approximately!) To determine the course of the enemy ship (and even before its silhouette "emerged" from the horizon !!!). The distance between the tops of the masts began to increase or decrease - changing course! With a single-masted ship, it is MUCH DIFFICULT to do it (especially if the wind is variable), and more time is required ..... And for reconnaissance cruisers with a squadron - this was considered very IMPORTANT !!
      These conflicting requirements led to the emergence of "single-masted" cruisers .... hi
      1. +1
        15 December 2018 16: 52
        A good version but will not take off :)))
        With "Garibaldi" with a completely symmetrical silhouette, this garbage would have rolled, but "Novik" with its three pipes, with different spacing between them, and one mast ..

        What can be confused there?
        1. +4
          15 December 2018 19: 58
          This is not a "version" - it is a fact.
          It was by the height of the masts and the distance between them that they tried to determine the course of the ship.
          The British at about the same time were engaged in the same experiments, take that residential complex "Dreadnought", in which only the foremast between the pipes looks full (the mainmast is scanty). ...
          1. 0
            16 December 2018 09: 10
            It was by the height of the masts and the distance between them that they tried to determine the course of the ship.

            And that is why one mast on Novik is not optimal at all.
            On a four-pipe "Makarov", where the mast is exactly in the middle - yes, it is possible.
            On "Gérin de la Graviere" where there are four pipes in two groups and two masts, the silhouette is also symmetrical
        2. +3
          15 December 2018 20: 28
          what
          Well, it's purely if you think about it with brains there is something to think about. You see the smoke. Depending on where the wind blows, you can guess where the ship can move. Then you start to see the mast for a while .. Depending on your course, you can assume that the ship can move in parallel for some time and you see it due to the curvature of the horizon, or it is heading towards you. But if you see only one mast, then either the ship moves strictly at you (even if in a certain period of time), then two or more masts are aligned in one, or the ship is single-mast and moves in a parallel course. The dilemma is still that. In any case, you need to see the pipes! Only then will you be able to evaluate the real rate, regardless of the number of masts and pipes along the sections. But this is exactly the moment when you see only smoke and the top of the mast is very tense and depending on the distance to the nearest shore or enemy base you can lose precious 2-3 hours due to the uncertain course of the ship ...
          In principle, a venik post is not without meaning. Hypothetically, such a situation is possible. You often read in the literature when precisely such moments are most tense due to uncertainty.
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          What can be confused there?

          smile
        3. 0
          17 December 2018 13: 54
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          With "Garibaldi" with a completely symmetrical silhouette, this garbage would have rolled, but "Novik" with its three pipes, with different spacing between them, and one mast ..

          Pipes - they are, as it were, lower than the masts. smile If there are two masts, the approximate course of the ship can be determined even before the pipes and hull appear from behind the horizon.
          1. 0
            17 December 2018 14: 09
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Pipes - they are, as it were, lower than the masts. If there are two masts, the approximate course of the ship can be determined even before the pipes and hull appear from behind the horizon.


            Smoke rises above the masts - smoke can determine the course long before the masts :)
      2. 0
        15 December 2018 22: 54
        The DISTANCE between the tops of the masts and the direction of the smoke (taking into account the direction of the wind) made it possible (albeit approximately!) To determine the course of the enemy ship (and even before its silhouette "emerged" from the horizon !!!). The distance between the tops of the masts began to increase or decrease - changing course! FROM

        Knowing the thousandth formula, you can determine the distance and accurately aim the guns. I read somewhere that the commander of the Koreyets ordered to saw off part of the mast before the battle. In battle, the Japanese therefore could not get into it.
        1. 0
          16 December 2018 19: 53
          Quote: glory1974
          ... I read somewhere that the commander of the Koreyets ordered to saw off part of the mast before the battle

          Why cut it? He has removable hangers. He took off :)
    3. +1
      16 December 2018 04: 31
      Both "Oleg" / "Bogatyr" and "Novik" were equipped with "mine-carrying" boilers, and on the first, even more "mine-carriers" if we take into account the size.
  2. +5
    15 December 2018 07: 58
    “We have now compared Novik with very expensive Kit-type fighters. Domestic shipyards built 350-ton destroyers cheaper - on average, the price was 611 thousand rubles. the price did not exceed 220 thousand rubles. It turns out that for one Novik one could build five and a half "412-ton" or eight "350-ton" destroyers! "
    Maybe that's why the next "Novik" was a destroyer))). Joke.
    The article is a plus, the author is respected.
    1. 0
      16 December 2018 19: 55
      Quote: kvs207
      Maybe that's why the next "Novik" was a destroyer))). Joke.

      They say in any "joke" there is a lot of joke! :)
  3. +6
    15 December 2018 08: 15
    My respect, dear Andrew hi
    There is nothing special to comment on. I will only note that you and I live more than a century after Novik's contemporaries. Therefore, our views on the rationale for the construction of "Novik" and its tactical use differ from those of that time. They THEN knew better differently than we NOW with our knowledge and brains.
    And again, do not forget the axiom that a ship is a performance compromise within a limited cost / displacement framework. Because "Novik" turned out like this. Ukhidshi, for example, one parameter on paper (speed) and within the allotted displacement we will get a stronger, with two masts, but with a lower speed, "Boyarin". And even more so, based on the knowledge of the strength of materials, any builder will go to any tricks in order to invest in the allotted cost. For the customer's desires may not always coincide with the technical capabilities.
    But what is better to have 1 "Bogatyr" or 2 "Novik" is a rhetorical question. One of the tasks of the Novik was to lead the destroyers into attacks. The question is - will the admiral use a more expensive ship for these functions if he has one? The Novik's task was not to protect the convoy of cruisers, but to ensure the actions of light forces. Yes, and the combat stability of a large ship is always greater than a small one. And in skirmishes with enemy destroyers, the displacement and protection was abundant. So from a tactical point of view of that time, the construction of Novik in accordance with the organization of the future Pacific Fleet, according to the program of creation of which was built the ship in question was quite justified request
    Conclusion. Let's consider this ship in the framework for which it was created, and not equal it with larger colleagues in the classification smile
    Article, of course, plus drinks
    1. +1
      15 December 2018 10: 43
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Let's consider this ship in the framework for which it was created, and not equal it with larger colleagues in the classification

      You are absolutely right. In essence, what I had to say was that the Novik was not a cheap alternative to destroyers or large cruisers. He possessed a unique alloy of performance characteristics, but he had to pay well for it. And the whole question now is how successfully it was possible to realize the strengths of Novik, but more on that later :)
      1. +2
        15 December 2018 13: 08
        It would be interesting to compare with the cost of German cruisers. "Novik" was built exactly between the last "Gazelle" and the first "Bremen" type. Dimensions are the same (+ \ -) ​​weapons, in general, also not a fountain, the speed is just ...
        1. +3
          15 December 2018 15: 06
          The cost of Gazelle and Bremen was 2,6 and 2,7 million gold marks, respectively. At the rate of 1900, taking the average price of 2,65 million marks, we get 2,180,324 rubles. 1,5 times less than "Novik" hi True, it is not entirely clear, this is with weapons, or without taking into account thereof.
      2. 0
        16 December 2018 14: 58
        If I am not mistaken, then "Novik" opened a new class of ships for that time - the destroyer.
        The main purpose of this ship was to interrupt trade communications between the ports of the enemy and the ports of its allies. That is, the termination of merchant shipping. To achieve this goal, it is necessary to build ships with: good seaworthiness; high speed (it is necessary to catch up with the merchant ships of the enemy and his allies in a short time); autonomy for at least 10 days.
        The Novik's armament is sufficient for raiding the enemy's trade communications. It is also capable of causing trouble for enemy warships of the same class as "Novik". This ship is able to interact with a connection of simple destroyers, the speed allows.

        This is my vision of the tasks and goals of the construction of "Novik".
        1. +6
          16 December 2018 17: 38
          You managed to make a mistake on almost all counts.
          1) Speech in this series of articles is not about the destroyer "Novik", which began construction in 1910, but about the second rank cruiser, laid down in 1900.
          2) Neither one nor the other had the task of interrupting enemy trade.
          3) Strangely enough, but at the beginning of the twentieth century the raider does not need a record speed. The commercial ships of that time were extremely slow. Need autonomy and 10 a day here, as they say, about nothing.
          4) Alas, Novik failed to bring problems to classmates. "Tsushima" in a battle near Korsakov beat him to the point of loss of combat capability. Perhaps he would have managed to cope with his German classmates, but here all the complaints are against Cherkasov, who happily loves such an opportunity. (Penang)
          1. 0
            16 December 2018 20: 07
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            3) Strangely enough, but at the beginning of the twentieth century, the raider does not need a record speed. The commercial ships of that time were extremely slow. Need autonomy

            What are you saying! And Asamas, including those intended for cleaning the surface from raiders, have nothing to do with it? Like a herd of Japanese 20-nd rank 2 cruisers?

            The actions of the Russian auxiliary cruisers proved to be of little use, including because they did not have a chance to leave or defend themselves from the first Japanese cruiser. And the commanders acutely felt it. But cruisers such as Askold, Bogatyr or Varangian could hunt communications almost with impunity.
            1. +1
              16 December 2018 21: 45
              If the choice is speed or autonomy, then the result is obvious :)) Six-thousanders with their real range, nothing shone on communications at all. Until they reach, it's time to turn around. And by the way, no need to juggle, I wrote "record speed", that is, the keyword: - Record
              20 knots is enough for a raider. The VOK detachment had no more than 18 knots, but the Asamoids were able to catch them only when they were going to meet the Vitgeft squadron.
              Tell Theodore Dietmers about the weakness of the "auxiliary cruisers".


              P.S. Throwing about the speed "Varyag" appreciated :))) but without me :)
              1. 0
                16 December 2018 22: 23
                Quote: Senior Sailor

                If the choice is speed or autonomy, the result is obvious :)) Six thousandths with their real range, nothing shone on communications at all.

                The only communications directly affecting the war between Japan and Russia is the supply line of the Japanese army in the Korean Channel. And you want to tell me that the range of the high-speed connection - Askold, Bogatyr, Varyag - will not be enough to completely break them! ?? Yes, in a month the Japanese will be forced to drag their entire fleet of fleets from Port Arthur to organize convoys and escort armadillos to heaps of small transports. Which opens up great opportunities for the main forces of the First Squadron.
                1. +1
                  16 December 2018 23: 02
                  And you want to tell me that the range of the high-speed connection - Askold, Bogatyr, Varyag - will not be enough to completely break them! ??

                  Looking from where. From Arthur still this way and that, from Vladik without any options at all.
  4. +5
    15 December 2018 09: 48
    Everything is just wonderful, dear colleague, but ... without a sneaker I won’t leave you :) tongue
    The Bayan was also noticeably inferior to Novik in speed - the armored cruiser was tested to smog Reach out to the 21 node by developing the 20,97 node.

    typo - could not
    ak, after the Russo-Japanese War, the Bayan armored cruiser was built with one mast,

    Probably all the same
    type "Bayan"
    as it was "Admiral Makarov"

    And in the 1915 year it was fixed. request
    1. 0
      15 December 2018 10: 43
      Thanks for the slippers, dear colleague! hi drinks
    2. +1
      15 December 2018 10: 49
      And in 1915 they fixed it

      And "Pearl", on the contrary, in 1909 was left with one mast :)
      1. +1
        15 December 2018 15: 32
        Quote: Denis Razumov
        And "Pearl", on the contrary, in 1909 was left with one mast :)

        ========
        The answer to this question is in the comment "above" .... Just by the beginning of World War I, STEAM TURBINE cruisers (including German ones) appeared, which "smoked the sky" MUCH weaker than coal steam ships ... Yes and the masts began to be made thin, poorly distinguishable at long distances. Those. the "course masking" system itself began to lose its original meaning! And with the development of optics, radio communications and the advent of radar, it lost all meaning ...
        But "Zhemchug" was an old (steam, coal) ship ... Moreover, the task of "chasing" the German raiders alone required "masking the course" (and the task of the "signal repeater" disappeared by itself!) - hence the solution is to remove 2 "extra masts" !!
        1. +1
          15 December 2018 17: 07
          Quote: venik
          (and the task of the "signal repeater" - disappeared by itself!) - hence the decision - to remove 2 "extra masts" !!

          Yes And here is how they appeared
          At the beginning of 1 904, new changes were made to the cruisers project. The first of them was due to the fact that the commander of Novik, Captain 2nd Rank N.O. Essen, reported from Port Arthur "about insufficiently reliable flag-signal production" and on January 27, the ITC decided to install on the "Pearl" and " Izumrude "two light wooden masts with a total weight with yards and a rigging of 1,44 tons.
  5. +1
    15 December 2018 10: 59
    Good afternoon. Article +.
    The nominal power of the machines "Novik" and "Bogatyr" 17000 and 19500, respectively, and what was their maximum power during testing? Or is it also covered with the darkness of time? For some reason this question is bypassed.
    1. 0
      15 December 2018 11: 51
      Greetings, Oleg!
      "Novik" reached an average speed of 25,08 knots with a machine power of 17 789 hp, about Boyarin, I will have to look, I will not say offhand
      1. +1
        15 December 2018 13: 43
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        about Boyarin, it will be necessary to look, I won’t say offhand

        11185 h.p. and 22,6uz.
        1. +1
          15 December 2018 15: 16
          Thank you, but I asked about Bogatyr-Wiki gives power 20378.
          According to Novik, getting used to the fact that the vehicles of German-built ships are constantly "jumping over their heads"
          I forgot, Novik's machines are "squeezed" so much and the maximum will not be far from the nominal.
          1. +1
            15 December 2018 16: 58
            Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
            Wiki gives power 20378.

            The same data and Polenov in the monograph "Ochakov"
            1. +1
              15 December 2018 17: 53
              Good evening, dear Rurikovich.
              This is the comparison of the power of the machines and raises more questions: the 2800 ton Novik, having developed almost 18000 l / s, was able to squeeze out 25 knots with difficulty, the Varyag at 6500 tonnes with a lower power of 16198, managed to squeeze 24,59 knots, Askold with his 6000 tonnes. , in order to squeeze 24 knots it took power 23600, and Bogatyr, to achieve the same, it took "only" 20378 mules, how so, why such a spread is not clear. On the idea of ​​Novik
              Having developed BIG power, in tests, than in two heavier Varyag had to give more, but here at the exhaust 0,5 knots?
              Him, that a measured mile was salted? Only one thing is clear, which is not shisha is not clear.
              1. +2
                15 December 2018 18: 43
                Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
                Only one thing is clear, which is not shisha is not clear.

                If you start to delve into the jungle of shipbuilding with design, then many things will become clear to you. wink Yes There are a lot of different coefficients, there are different coefficients of body completeness, wetted surface ... In many respects, the ratio of power to the achieved speed depends on the choice of the pitch of the propellers, propulsive coefficients ... The depth of the measured mile also affects the tests - the smaller the depth, the more power it is necessary to develop against the resistance of accompanying waves. The Germans, when testing their dreadnoughts of the "Koenig" type during WWI, received 21,5 knots of speed. But since the tests were carried out on a shallow measured mile, during the Battle of Jutland, "kenigi", according to eyewitnesses, easily gave 24 knots ... And besides this, one should not forget about the test conditions. The same "Varyag" developed its 24 knots for a short time. On longer tests (12 hours) "Varyag" barely gave 23 knots. If you are really interested in this moment, then read the cycle of the author Andrey from Chelyabinsk about "Varyag" - many nuances are quite clearly described there, especially regarding the boiler-machine installation (CMU) Yes hi
                PS Better yet, read the book "The Heart of the Ship" by Shapiro. There we are talking about the power plants of ships from steam to modern (at the time of 1990) and the book "The fastest ships". In these publications you will learn a lot from the design of ships and their achievement of the required speeds ... Yes
                1. +2
                  15 December 2018 19: 24
                  About Varyag, I read the full monograph of Andrei Nikolaevich.
                  And comments too.
                  I started reading the Author's articles from the "Sevastopol" article.
                2. -2
                  16 December 2018 20: 20
                  Quote: Rurikovich
                  The same "Varyag" developed its 24 knots for a short time. On longer tests (12 hours) "Varyag" barely gave 23 knots.

                  Dear Rurikovich. In his 12 hour test on September 21, the Varangian calmly showed 23.18 knots despite the rather fresh weather. And the captain complained that only strong excitement prevented him from showing 25 knots earlier.

                  Let's not recklessly repeat the negative assessments of Andrey :)
                  1. +3
                    16 December 2018 20: 30
                    Quote: Saxahorse
                    In his 12 hour test on September 21, the Varangian calmly showed 23.18 knots despite the rather fresh weather.

                    Yes
                    Although before that
                    On July 5, 12-hour continuous tests were in full swing. It all started well. The ship was in full swing for the eighth hour, when suddenly the cover of the CVP of the left car was knocked out. The tests were forced to stop; Mechanism repairs continued until mid-September.

                    Yes, and the constant presence of the ship in repairs regarding CMU after being accepted into the fleet leads to vague doubts about the quality of construction feel hi
                    1. +1
                      16 December 2018 20: 36
                      Quote: Rurikovich
                      Yes, and the constant presence of the ship in repairs regarding CMU after being accepted into the fleet leads to vague doubts about the quality of construction

                      for comparison
                      One of the main advantages of Askold was considered reliable operation of its power plant. This advantage compensated for all its shortcomings. Alas, the “Varangian” could not “boast” of this. The cruiser spent a significant part of the pre-war service in Port Arthur against the wall in endless repairs. The reason was both the careless assembly of the machines and the unreliability of the Nikloss system boilers, which were witty in idea, but too capricious in operation.
                      1. +1
                        16 December 2018 21: 16
                        There is no need to put operational problems and real performance characteristics of a combat ship together. The fact that Nikloss boilers did not please the customers has long been known. On the other hand, the crooked hands of Port Arthur's repairmen didn’t help the cruiser either. And he will ask for this with Witte and Rozhestvensky — both neglected the development of the fleet base in favor of reports and parades.

                        This article is about another, about the benefits of a particular type of cruiser. I consider Novik as a cruiser a mistake. What am I writing about :)
                      2. +1
                        16 December 2018 21: 30
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        There is no need to put operational problems and the actual performance characteristics of a combat ship together

                        Well, I gave an example that the quality of construction directly affects the real performance characteristics of the ship. The operational problems of the Varyag are a consequence of the quality of the construction, and since they directly affect the general condition of the ship and its real characteristics, let's admit that the crooked-handed repairmen of Port Arthur, if they did not help in correcting the incorrigible problems of the Vayarg, but certainly The cars of the "Germans" - "Askold" and "Novik", which did not create problems for the entire service in Arthur, did not ditch in any way.
                        Well, if we're only talking about "Novik", then let's better follow the author's thoughts to the end and then we will draw conclusions about the ship smile
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        I consider Novik as a cruiser a mistake. What am I writing about :)

                        This is your personal opinion and I do not dispute it. smile My personal opinion is that the creation of Novik was not a mistake. hi
                      3. -1
                        16 December 2018 21: 34
                        Quote: Rurikovich
                        Her personal opinion is that the creation of "Novik" was not a mistake.

                        Well, so the Japanese generally thought the same! They have a lot of cruisers of the same size but armed with 6 "guns!

                        The only claim is this. It’s too big for a destroyer, rather weak for a cruiser. :(
                      4. +1
                        16 December 2018 21: 53
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        They have a lot of cruisers of the same size but armed with 6 "guns!

                        But all of these cruisers went only with 19-20 knots. Our analogue is "Svetlana"
                        One of the direct tasks of "Novik" was interaction with destroyers, therefore reaching the high speed, and therefore the power of the machines (read - the weight of the CMU) within the limits of the displacement limit led to the fact that they were limited to 120mm guns and received a thin armored deck. Although this weapon is quite enough for interaction with destroyers. The only question is that everyone stubbornly compares Novik with cruisers! Well, he had no function to compete with the enemy's cruisers. DID NOT HAVE. Like his descendants - the English scouts. All British scouts of the first wave (Forward - Ettentive) were built for the same functions as Novik - reconnaissance and interaction with destroyers. And they had the same 25 knots of travel, but only 102 mm guns, which for the beginning of the century was quite enough to destroy the destroyers of the same beginning of the century.
                        Here "six-thousanders" were created, among other things, to resist enemy cruisers, therefore, they had a different composition of weapons, respectively.
                        So again, let's consider Novik based on the functions for which it was created - interaction with destroyers and close reconnaissance in the squadron Yes
                      5. 0
                        16 December 2018 22: 27
                        Quote: Rurikovich
                        So again, let's consider Novik based on the functions for which it was created - interaction with destroyers and close reconnaissance in the squadron

                        It was this narrow function that turned the magnificent Novik into an unsuccessful ship. Even four 152 mm guns would qualitatively change his role in the war. And so - a fast, weak runner. The first time the commander decided to accept the battle instead of flight, he became the last for Novik.
                      6. 0
                        16 December 2018 22: 56
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        The first time the commander decided to accept the battle instead of flight, he became the last for Novik.

                        I would wait for the author's analysis, so as not to accelerate events smile
                        Let's not forget about the quality of fire of the Novik gunners, which was frankly useless due to the "sitting" of the squadron in the PA. Therefore, under equal conditions, "Tsushima" got off with one shell from "Novik", stuffing the latter with a dozen shells. And all within an hour
                  2. 0
                    16 December 2018 20: 31
                    Quote: Saxahorse
                    Let's not recklessly repeat Andrei’s negative assessments:

                    I always have my personal opinion hi
              2. +4
                15 December 2018 20: 07
                There is nothing to be surprised at - the Germans honestly earned prize money (for observing the displacement and contractual speed), and the Americans cheated by putting up the Varyag with empty coal pits and water tanks and a pile of coal in front of the furnaces. As a result, "Varyag" never again developed its "highest" speed, even when it became very necessary, and "Askold" in the battle in the Yellow Sea left both Japanese light cruisers and ... "Novik" - he is on trials I gave my 24 knots without forcing machines, and nowhere did I find how much he gave when it became necessary to "take out".
                Indirectly - more than 24 knots, because the Japanese "knowing" that its speed of 23 knots pounded the entire stern behind the fifth pipe, and probably aimed ahead of time.
                1. +1
                  15 December 2018 20: 55
                  Quote: Karl Ivanovich
                  tearing up all the stern behind the fifth pipe, and probably aiming ahead


                  Got everywhere, not just the fifth pipe wink
                  1. +1
                    15 December 2018 23: 02
                    Yes, I understand that there are many factors that affect speed. I was surprised that the ship was twice as small in displacement (2800 versus 6500) and with a narrower hull, while developing more power, the difference was more than 1500 l / s, and the speed was only 0,5 knots more, for a short time. at least a node and a half? So I wondered, what was holding Novik by the "tail"?
                    But that is the question of the amateur.
                    And for a tip to books, thanks again, I will try to buy and read.
                    1. 0
                      16 December 2018 04: 13
                      Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
                      Yes, I understand that there are many factors that affect speed. I was surprised that the ship was twice as small in displacement (2800 versus 6500) and with a narrower hull, while developing more power, the difference was more than 1500 l / s, and the speed was only 0,5 knots more, for a short time. at least a node and a half? So I wondered, what was holding Novik by the "tail"?
                      But that is the question of the amateur.
                      And for a tip to books, thanks again, I will try to buy and read.

                      Germany did not play then in the "major league" of world shipbuilding, unlike the USA and England. Hence such unfortunate results for Novik and other Germans. On the "Novik", in fact, there was an "extra" car to add one and a half knots of speed. Moreover, the German lost even to the Dane in the "high-speed" hull contours.
            2. 0
              15 December 2018 18: 52
              Quote: Rurikovich
              The same data and Polenov in the monograph "Ochakov"

              Of course at Melnikov's! I beg your pardon - I confused it ... Polenov wrote "Aurora", and Melnikov wrote "Ochakov" fool ...
              Million of Apologies hi
              1. +1
                15 December 2018 19: 59
                Thanks for the tip.
  6. 0
    15 December 2018 15: 50
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

    Greetings, Oleg!
    Novik reached an average speed of 25,08 knots

    But what about the maximum nodes under 40 will be? Or would it be worth adding the average maximum.
  7. +1
    15 December 2018 21: 31
    +++ to the author, a very good comparison of effectiveness in the main task (intelligence), especially with Bayan. What intelligence can the light cruisers (generally die)) with poor visibility showed Jutland. As the author noted, that (little) that Novik could do in reconnaissance, in general, could also be done by a large naval destroyer such as Kit ...
    е
    The only indisputable advantage of Novikov is that three ships of this type can be in three different places at the same time, and built almost the same money two "Athlete" - only in two.

    Nevertheless, Askold is more suitable for comparison at the price of (3 to 2) The trouble is that the same argument (3 to 2) was used when comparing Askold with the Bayan. Therefore, Bayan remained single ((Although now it is clear to everyone (and many then) that two Bayans are much more valuable than three Askolds or 4,5 Noviks for an eskadra ... That is, 2 Bayan and 3 EM Kit type are better than 5 Novikov (of the same value) And without considering the opportunity to order a little cheaper / smaller Bayan (armored course)
    But let's not forget about Novik's other destiny - leading destroyers and fighting them (enemy of course)). In this role, a comparison with Boyarin would be appropriate. Unlike reconnaissance, everything is OK here, and high speed is in demand, and 120mm cartridge guns are the most ... However, at night everything is not entirely clear and the possibility of having a cheaper (albeit less fast) defender should be considered, because the admirals wanted a little if not two per armadillo)).
    With respect and expectation: (Byern) hi
    1. -1
      16 December 2018 20: 30
      Quote: anzar
      it is clear that for the eskadra two Bayans are much more valuable than three Askolds or 4,5 Novikov ...

      I apologize but do not agree. The opponent of the Bayan is Asam or Iwate. And it is not a fact that in a one-on-one fight Bayan from such a battle will be able to leave alive. But Askold has no opponents in the Japanese fleet. He will calmly leave any Japanese cruiser, not to mention the fact that he can finish many of the 2nd rank.
      1. 0
        16 December 2018 20: 54
        Quote: Saxahorse
        But Askold has no opponents in the Japanese fleet.

        Regarding the creation of "6000-ton" scouts
        When developing the design task, the MTK specialists proceeded from the fact that the new cruiser should be stronger and faster than the corresponding Japanese cruisers. The displacement of the long-range reconnaissance for reasons of cost savings was limited to 6000 tons, the full speed was set relatively high for that time - 23 knots. Artillery weapons were to consist of 12 - 152 mm and 12 - 75 mm guns. Specialists from the MTK artillery department believed that faster-firing 152 mm guns would provide more firepower than 2 - 203 mm and 10 - 120 mm cannons for likely opponents - Japanese Kassagi cruisers. Mine weapons were to consist of six torpedo tubes.
        1. -1
          16 December 2018 21: 29
          And they counted correctly! Indeed, in close combat, 6 "significantly exceed 8" in volley mass. And the Japanese simply do not have equal speed, even in theory. one can simply nightmare the enemy's communications with almost impunity. (except that the sneaky Crump will slip a malfunction right in the battle!)
      2. 0
        16 December 2018 21: 33
        Rurikovich quote
        Opponent of Bayan - Asama or Iwate

        This is wrong. It was built as an “armored reconnaissance officer at the eskadra” although it could play other roles.
        not the fact that in a one-on-one fight Bayan from such a battle will be able to leave alive.

        He should not fight with him. A special meeting decided to oppose the Japanese BrK with more armadillos (... have 10) as the most powerful and universal ships of the naval warfare. A short-term “hassle” Bayan can withstand (due to armor) even with armadillos. And real max. the speeds of the Bayan and Asam are almost the same.
        But Askold has no opponents in the Japanese fleet. He will calmly leave any Japanese cruiser ...

        He will leave, but before the first hit in the area of ​​the waterline with which thread of the lousy Niitaki (he suddenly ran into bad visibility). Then you can only take it with you)), it all depends on whose main forces are closer (and quicker)).
        1. 0
          16 December 2018 21: 50
          Quote: anzar
          A short-term “hassle” Bayan will withstand (due to armor) even with armadillos. And real max. the speeds of Bayan and Asam are almost the same.

          What Bayan confirmed in a real battle with the Japanese squadron. Why they were ordered into production without waiting for the end of the war. What is wrong and forgetting to take into account the mass appearance of turbines as the main mover. As for the real speed, it’s hard to say here, it depends on the moment of the meeting. In theory, Asam’s afterburner is faster, but in fact the Russian method of accepting a 12-hour run gave more realistic numbers.

          Quote: anzar
          He will leave, but before the first hit in the area of ​​the waterline with which thread of the lousy Niitaki

          As the statistics of the RJV battles have repeatedly confirmed, such an unsuccessful hit sharply reduced speed, this is a maximum of 1/10 fights, in fact only Svetlana and Rurik for the entire war, caught the very gold bullet that made the battle hopeless due to the loss of speed. Typically, armored decks calmly left even after 10-15 hits.
      3. 0
        16 December 2018 21: 52
        Look at the booking. "Asama" can do nothing to "Bayan" as well as vice versa.
  8. +2
    15 December 2018 21: 58
    The armor is so expensive! At the same price as artillery. Kaptsov’s expensive hobby, however. And if you count by weight, then a kilo of artillery costs as much as 4 kg of armor. Interestingly, on the battleships the same layouts?
  9. +1
    15 December 2018 23: 14
    Andrey Nikolaevich! In Part 1, you touched on the financial issue and Witte torpedoed the allocation of the necessary funds to the fleet at the right time (a spoon is good for dinner), but at the same time did not spare money for your favorite project, the city of Dalniy (Dalian). It turns out the money was, it was necessary to choose the right priorities. This could be done by Nicholas 2 and maybe Witte would not have had a dubious non-official title - Count Polusakhalinsky.
    1. 0
      16 December 2018 00: 28
      Greetings! By the way, it was Nikolai who renewed the decision to allocate money in full to the fleet. Witte generally almost wanted to cut the amount by half. Here, all the same, it was not the understanding of the naval bosses who played what and how much we need that played any more, we just have to look at how they shoveled the entire shipbuilding program
      1. -4
        16 December 2018 20: 36
        Quote: Nehist
        By the way, it was Nicholas who made the decision to allocate money in full to the fleet.

        By the way, they say that it was the huge funds allocated for the restoration of the RI fleet that disrupted the rearmament program of the army before the WWII. The RI fleet, as usual, did not play any role in the war. Everywhere where they could, they drowned themselves.
        1. +2
          16 December 2018 21: 55
          By the way, they say that it was the huge funds allocated for the restoration of the RI fleet that disrupted the rearmament program of the army before the WWII.

          But this is just nonsense. The small shipbuilding program cost about 150 million rubles in gold and about the same amount of unspent funds was deposited on the accounts of the military department, since Sukhomlinov and his ilk, in all seriousness, believed that the army had enough
          1. -1
            16 December 2018 22: 13
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            The small shipbuilding program cost about 150 million rubles in gold and about the same amount of unspent funds was deposited on the accounts of the military department

            Small shipbuilding program - what are you talking about? About destroyers?
            1. +2
              16 December 2018 22: 55
              Damn ... I have no words! And you have something else ....
              Okay.
              So, the main argument of the flotophobes, claiming that the fleet gobbled up all the money allocated to defense, is the cost of the Big Shipbuilding Program, when it was planned to build only in the Baltic Sea three squadrons consisting of 8 battleships, 4 battlecruisers, 9 light and even little things. It cost, of course, a prohibitive amount (350 lyamov per squadron), but since it was not accepted, there was nothing to talk about.
              We decided to build only one squadron and called it a "small program", but the State Council looked at the prices and decided that this was bold too, so they really highlighted:
              Already in early May 1907, the Council of Ministers allowed the Ministry of the Sea to annually contribute 31 million rubles to its budget. for the construction of battleships. 9 June 1907 Mr. Nicholas II approved a new, smaller version of the "small program", which included two dreadnought, and already 12 July 1907 G. it was again adjusted by the king to four battleships. The cost of the program was 127 million rubles

              This is Vinogradov "The Last Giants ..."
              1. 0
                18 December 2018 23: 42
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                So, the main argument of the flotophobes, claiming that the fleet gobbled up all the money allocated to defense, is the cost of the Big Shipbuilding Program, when it was planned to build only in the Baltic Sea three squadrons consisting of 8 battleships, 4 battlecruisers, 9 light and even little things. It cost, of course, a prohibitive amount (350 lyamov per squadron), but since it was not accepted, there was nothing to talk about.

                Yeah .. As we can see, the fascination with alternative history does not work for anyone. laughing

                In what excuse reality was this program NOT accepted? Have you been on our planet for a long time? Names: Sevastopol, Petropavlovsk, Poltava, Gangut, Empress Maria, Alexander 3, Empress Catherine, Nikolai 1, Izmail, Borodino, Kingburn, Navarin - do they not remind you of anything?

                On April 25, 1911, Nicholas II approved the "Program for the Rapid Strengthening of the Baltic Fleet" and the "Draft Law on the Navy." navy were approved .. It provided for the construction from 6 to 1912 (1912) for the Baltic Fleet of 1916 battle cruisers of the Izmail type, 7 mine cruisers (Muravyov-Amursky and Admiral Nevelsky - ordered in Germany) , 4 light cruisers of the Svetlana class (Admiral Greig, Svetlana, Admiral Butakov, Admiral Spiridov), the 2st destroyer of the Novik class (various series) and 4 submarines ; as well as 31 light cruisers of the Svetlana type (Admiral Nakhimov, Admiral Lazarev for the Black Sea Fleet) "


                This program, plus some hasty programs that added Mary and Katya and Svetlan, and Novikov, and a couple more battleships for the Black Sea Fleet, in total, is called the Big Shipbuilding Program. And it cost almost 800 million rubles only for ships, not counting the funds allocated for the expansion of plants. Well, all sorts of Bayans, destroyers, Rurik and Andrei with Pavel are not included here, they threw extra money.

                If you really want to understand the programs, read better Petrova.

                Petrov M.A. "Preparing Russia for the World War at Sea"
                militera.lib.ru/h/petrov_ma/05.html

                There is a detailed description of both the small and large programs.
  10. +1
    16 December 2018 06: 37
    There are also some ambiguities with its numbers, because they usually indicate 328 people, including 12 officers.

    Dear Andrei, judging by the photograph taken in Port Arthur on the eve of the war, it was so.

    It is no less interesting that in the photo of the ship’s officers we can see 15 people.

    Perhaps guests? There is a photograph of the officers of the "Tsarevich", the signature says that among them is an officer from the "Peresvet".
    The cost of the entire cruiser artillery was 194,8 thousand rubles. but the cost of ammunition for them (it is unlikely that it was more than about double ammunition) - 168,6 тыс. rub. that is, almost as much as the artillery itself

    Dear colleague, something is wrong here, judge for yourself.

    The cost of 120 mm shells on the ships of the 1-th Pacific Squadron:
    High-explosive - 26,60 rub. x 295 = 7 847,00 rub.
    Armor-piercing - 76 rub. x 255 = 19 380,00 rub.
    Cast iron - 30,04 rub. x 257 = 7 720,28 rub.
    Segment - 30,04 rub. x 250 = 7 510,00 rub.
    Total : 42 457,28 RUB
    Add 1 057 shells at the price of 16,49 rub., Get 17 429,93 rub.
    Total : 42 457,28 RUB + 17 429,93 RUB = 59 887,21 rub.
    The cost of the Bogatyr armored cruiser was 5 509 711 rubles. In this case, the comparison with Bogatyr is correct in that both Novik and Bogatyr were built in German shipyards, that is, the difference in pricing and production culture is minimized.
    Novik is much cheaper - its full cost is 61,55% of that of Bogatyr

    Dear colleague, the comparison will not be too correct, since we must not lose sight of the fact that the full cost of the Bogatyr includes the cost of two of its towers, manufactured in Russia. It is not known how much "Bogatyr" would cost if we ordered towers for it in Germany.

    In general, many thanks for the article, the analysis is interesting, and I really liked the course of some of your thoughts +!
    1. 0
      16 December 2018 16: 46
      [/ quote] The cost of 120 mm shells on the ships of the 1st Pacific Squadron:
      High-explosive - 26,60 rub. x 295 = 7 847,00 rub.
      Armor-piercing - 76 rub. x 255 = 19 380,00 rub.
      Cast iron - 30,04 rub. x 257 = 7 720,28 rub.
      Segment - 30,04 rub. x 250 = 7 510,00 rub.
      Total: 42 rubles
      Add 1 057 shells at the price of 16,49 rub., Get 17 429,93 rub.
      Total: 42 457,28 RUB + 17 429,93 rubles = $ 59 [quote]

      They forgot more gunpowder, 42 rubles per pound. Those. you must add almost 18 thousand rubles.
      In the photo there is not enough old-fashioned and diligent, perhaps one of them takes a photo.
    2. 0
      17 December 2018 13: 21
      Greetings, dear colleague!
      Quote: Comrade
      Perhaps guests? There is a photograph of the officers of the "Tsarevich", the signature says that among them is an officer from the "Peresvet".

      I think - nevertheless not, here is another photograph with a list of names - 14 people, all of them are Novik officers. And the analysis of appointments speaks for itself - A. Yemelin has a list of all the officers who served on the Novik with the dates when they held this or that position, it turns out 14

      Quote: Comrade
      Dear colleague, something is wrong here, judge for yourself.

      Hmmm ... interesting :))))) However, dear colleague, the well-known to you "Ship's List" gives 3 option - the cost of one combat supply set for Novik - artillery 114 rubles, mines - 913 rubles. To be honest, I thought that they ordered a double set of supplies for the guns, but ... Let's think, look :)))
      Quote: Comrade
      Dear colleague, the comparison will not be too correct, since we must not lose sight of the fact that the full cost of the Bogatyr includes the cost of two of its towers, manufactured in Russia. It is not known how much "Bogatyr" would cost if we ordered towers for it in Germany.

      I agree, but here the deviations are still minimal - the cost of one tower was (with the installation) somewhere in the range of 110 thousand rubles. that is, even 25-30% deviations on the scale of the cruiser will still not produce deviations that fundamentally change the conclusions.
      Quote: Comrade
      In general, many thanks for the article, the analysis is interesting, and I really liked the course of some of your thoughts +!

      Thank you! hi
      1. 0
        18 December 2018 02: 11
        Dear Andrey!
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I think - nevertheless not, here is another photograph with a list by name - 14 people, all of them are Novik officers.

        Then yes, it turns out, I hastened with an objection.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        the well-known to you "Ship's List" gives 3 option - the cost of one combat supply set for Novik - artillery 114 913 rubles

        In my experience, information from this source sometimes has inaccuracies, apparently, this is one of such cases.
        We have 59 887,21 rub. for shells and shells, we add the approximate 18 000,00 rub. for gunpowder, it turns out 78 000,00 rub. Well, let another five thousand go to gazebos for shells and other things.
        This means that ammunition for the Novik small-caliber artillery accounts for about 32 rubles. Nonsense ..
        Dear colleague, when do you plan to publish a chapter with the participation of "Novik" in the battle of Port Arthur? Yesterday I looked through Japanese sources, there is something interesting.
        1. 0
          18 December 2018 08: 07
          Greetings, dear Valentine!
          Quote: Comrade
          We have 59 887,21 rub. for shells and shells, we add the approximate 18 000,00 rub. for gunpowder, it turns out 78 000,00 rub. Well, let another five thousand go to gazebos for shells and other things.
          This means that ammunition for the Novik small-caliber artillery accounts for about 32 rubles. Nonsense ..

          Yes, not quite :))))) The first thing I would like to note is the lack of practical shells, were they made for Novik? Second, it is not a fact that Novik left for the Far East with a full ammunition load, it could be less or more than the norm (although the latter is still doubtful). Third, we still do not know what was included in the complete set, so the 5 rubles you calculated may be correct, or may not. Fourth, the genesis of the figure given by me from the ship's list is not clear - for "Boyarin", which had a similar art, it is much higher - 000 rubles. The origin of your numbers, alas, is also unclear, is this the price when shipped from the factory's warehouse? Price in Arthur including delivery?
          Quote: Comrade
          Dear colleague, when do you plan to publish a chapter with the participation of "Novik" in the battle of Port Arthur?

          And already :))))) Posted on Sunday, the main will be this week hi
        2. 0
          19 December 2018 06: 07
          [/ quote] This means that ammunition for the Novik small-caliber artillery accounts for about 32 rubles. Nonsense .. [quote]

          Yes, as it were, no.
          B / c one 47mm gun with boxes cost about 4700 rubles. Total, b / c of six guns - 28200 rubles.
          Plus b / c to 37mm guns and cartridges for machine guns and rifles. It’s quite up to you that the 32000 rubles you’re looking for are running over.
          So there is no need to roll the barrel on the SS 1904.
          1. 0
            21 December 2018 05: 38
            Quote: Jura 27
            A b / c of one 47mm cannon with boxes cost about 4700 rubles.

            How do you know how much in the reality 47 mm shells accounted for one Novik gun?
            1. 0
              22 December 2018 04: 11
              Quote: Comrade
              Quote: Jura 27
              A b / c of one 47mm cannon with boxes cost about 4700 rubles.

              How do you know how much in the reality 47 mm shells accounted for one Novik gun?

              In the "SS 1904g" the planned cost is indicated, therefore, I took the planned number of used items.
  11. 0
    16 December 2018 08: 04
    Lenolium on the deck of the ship - this, of course, is strong).
  12. -2
    16 December 2018 20: 57
    In general, it can be said that the reasons for installing only one mast are unclear, but this was not the optimal solution, creating the problems listed above.

    Many people have already spoken about one mast, recalling that in this way they tried to make it difficult to determine the course of the ship. There was a feeling that the author was a little flirting, because the same statement was met in the author's articles earlier. :)

    But in general, we can state that the corps regarding the Bogatyr project is greatly facilitated. Although, no doubt, due to the greater specific gravity of the hull, Oleg had an advantage over Novik both in seaworthiness and in stability, like an artillery platform.

    The author flashed as usual, I don’t know what place laughing

    Comparing a rank 1 cruiser with a scout and a "car case" is certainly very correct! It is unclear why, in this case, in comparison, Asama missed, Peresvet and the type of Borodino (since such a booze went).

    It's funny that such a comparison is still useful. The conclusion is really the opposite of the author's conclusions. Comparison with a full-fledged cruiser suggests that Novik's hull was not at all so much lightened as they like to write about it. This is not at all a destroyer through the thin skin of which "the frames were clearly visible"; in terms of the specific weight of the hull, this is a full-fledged cruiser, moreover, very under-armed. We see that his future killer, Tsushima, carries on board full-fledged 6 "cannons instead of Novik's miserable 120 mm. This is a gross mistake of the customers and designers, the ship could obviously carry full-fledged 152 mm cruising guns.

    Comparing the cost looks pretty interesting. It is immediately clear that cruisers such as Askold or Varangian are superior in quality to their opponents, while Novik is superior in speed to opponents, in fact, has no advantages over the large destroyer of that time. You can only agree with the opinion about the fallacy of the concept of scout. Destroyers could easily solve reconnaissance tasks as an auxiliary ship, Novik is extremely expensive, as the cruiser is very weak.

    Not surprisingly, the next Novik became a destroyer. :)
  13. +1
    17 December 2018 13: 47
    the absence of a second masthead light on the ship - the latter made it difficult at night to determine the cruiser’s course, creating a danger of collision

    A very strange conclusion.
    It is impossible to determine the course (direction of movement) from the top lights - for this there are running lights, but they are not always placed on the mast - mainly on the hull.

  14. +1
    17 December 2018 17: 38
    Special thanks to the author for the photo - very good!
    The description of the means of communication is very indicative from the point of view of the systematic thinking of those who wrote the terms of reference on the ship - a scout with a bad walkie-talkie in the era of radio nonsense ...
    It is a pity that the author does not use tables to compare the weight distribution - this would be noticeably clearer!
    The comparison between Novik and Bogatyr and Bayan is rather far-fetched - the ships are very different, but Bogatyr and Bayan is the other way around ... bully
    In my opinion, it is necessary to compare with Boyarin / Emerald, as well as Japanese peers - Tsushima, etc. ....
    Comparison with the latter is very revealing in terms of the choice of weapons, although it seems that the author will do this further, so to speak, the plot is twisted ... hi
  15. 0
    17 December 2018 17: 46
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    He possessed a unique TTX alloy

    it's hard to agree - he had a serious roll in one parameter - speed! Even the quality of art was sacrificed to this. platforms that for a warship are stupid enough! Although, if you look historically, this approach is characteristic of our fleet - and the RIF, the Navy of the USSR and the Russian Federation ... feel
    In the RIF, popovs were built as floating batteries - not suitable for navigation, but in the USSR, submarines of the type of a baby only suitable for transportation by rail ... now patrol officers have muddied ... request
  16. 0
    6 January 2019 00: 44
    It was not possible to consider the option: the price of Novik and Bogatyr is dumping, the true cost is see Pearls and Oleg, then we compare with standard prices for Germans and English? Thanks in advance!

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