Military Review

Armored decked lightning. Cruiser II rank "Novik". New commander

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Stepan Osipovich Makarov arrived in Port Arthur on the morning of February 24 1904 and raised his flag on the Askold armored cruiser, which coincided with another joyful event - on the same day, the Retvizan squadron battleship was finally removed.


Almost the first thing that S.O. Makarov, taking command of the squadron - the organization of almost daily exits of the destroyers in the night patrols. It was a difficult decision, given that the 24 of the destroyers at that time were fully operational only 6, and two more, although they could go to sea, but had problems of mechanisms. But…

The problem was that the Japanese, so to speak, became completely impudent. The two strongest Russian battleships and, albeit imperfect, but still the first-ranking armored cruiser, were disabled: in this state, the Pacific squadron could not give the United the fleet general battle with the hope of success. The Russian fleet could not gain dominance at sea and, reluctantly, could be reconciled for some time, but it was impossible to put up with the fact that the Japanese managed to manage the outer raid of Port Arthur at night. What this led to, we well know - as a result of a night mine setting by the Japanese, Petropavlovsk and S.O. Makarov, and during the command of V.K. Witgeft at the very first exit of the squadron at sea, while anchoring in the outer raid, the battleship Sevastopol was blown up by a mine. It was already bad that the ships of the squadron left the outer raid, having failed to defend it, now the release of armadillos was possible only in the "big water" and took a lot of time. But under V.K. Witgeft Port Arthur’s outer raid generally represented, so to speak, the central mine position of the Japanese. Russian ships were locked in their own harbor, and despite all the efforts of the marshalling caravan, any exit from the internal raid was fraught with grave losses.


"Novik" in combat painting

In other words, the struggle for the sea should not be put off until Retvizan, Tsesarevich and Pallas returned to service. It had to start right now, with regaining control over the water area at Port Arthur: in no case could the Japanese forces be allowed to operate regularly at the main fleet base. The solution of this problem was also beneficial because in the event of military clashes and damage to the Russian ships, the port and repair facilities were in close proximity, but the damaged Japanese ships would have to go hundreds of miles to their bases, which for small-sized destroyers could be fraught.

Stepan Osipovich Makarov understood all this well. Surely, he also realized that such warfare could give our destroyers invaluable combat experience, which was more safe and easier to get in close proximity to its own base than in any other way. And therefore, already on February 25, the day after arrival, he sent two destroyers, “Decisive” and “Tracking”, to the night watch. C.O. Makarov assumed that the Japanese destroyers were operating from some kind of “jump airfield”, and therefore sent the destroyers to reconnoitre, in order to identify the Japanese mine-carrying base in the 90 region miles from Port Arthur. At the same time, the "Resolute" and "the Watchful One" were instructed to attack the cruisers or transports of the Japanese, if they met, but to avoid a battle with the enemy destroyers without the utmost need.

Further events are well known - “Decisive” and “Watchful” saw a large enemy ship at Dalinsky Bay and tried to attack it, but being unmasked by torches firing from the pipes, they were discovered by Japanese destroyers, and, as a result, could not get into the attack. Both Russian ships returned to Port Arthur at dawn, but were intercepted by the 3 fighter squadron - they had nothing left but to accept the battle, in which the “Resolute” managed to break through under the protection of the coastal batteries of Port Arthur, and “Watching Died heroically.

We will not now dwell on the circumstances of the last battle of the courageous crew of this ship: when S.O. Makarov learned the circumstances of the case, he immediately went to the sea to the rescue of the “guarding”, holding the flag on Novik, followed by the “Bayan”. Alas, the battle took place at a distance of about 10 miles from Port Arthur and the Russian cruisers did not have time - by the time they arrived at the scene of the action, they could no longer help the heroic destroyer.


"Novik" under the flag of the commander goes to the rescue of "erecting"


Of course, the Russian cruisers bombarded the Japanese destroyers. But the fire from a long distance was not effective, and the Japanese, taking advantage of the speed, quickly retreated, but they could not be pursued - on the horizon appeared the main forces of H. Togo, who were going to bomb Port Arthur. So the cruisers had no choice but to return.

Lieutenant N. Cherkasov, who was on the Golden Mount and was watching the “guarding” battle, believed that the Japanese cruisers almost cut off the Novik, coming between him and Port Arthur, and the latter managed to escape only because of their excellent speed, but the Japanese do not confirm. In their official historiography, the Japanese point out that they sent the 4 battle group Sotokichi Uriu to the battlefield of the destroyers as part of Naniwa, Takachiho, Niytaki and Tsushima, and this was done even before the Russian cruisers appeared . But 4-th combat squad did not have time, and approached the battlefield only when the battle was already over, and the destroyer "Carp" tried to tow the "guard". Finding that Russian cruisers were approaching the Japanese destroyers, S. Uriu rushed to their aid, but saw that the Southers had abandoned the sinking Russian destroyer and was leaving at full speed. Now the Japanese destroyers were not threatened, and the 4 combat detachment did not join the battle and turned away, stopping the rapprochement.

Thus, this time, the Novik did not succeed, but, regardless of the actual results achieved, Stepan Osipovich’s exit on a small cruiser had great moral significance for the entire squadron. Recall the description of this episode in Vl. Semenova:

“As soon as the signal station of the Golden Mountain reported that a battle was taking place between ours and the Japanese destroyers, they left the harbor“ Askold ”and“ Novik ”to cover them. "Novik" - ahead.
—- Did the admiral himself go to this “adventure”? - the question is alive all interested and quite natural.
The officers gathered on the bridge intensively rubbed the glass of binoculars, strained their eyes ... There was no flag of the commander on the "Askold" ...
-- Well, okay! No way to risk it ... On a light cruiser ... You never know ... - some said ...
—- At Novik! Flag - on Novik! - suddenly, as if choking with excitement, the signalman shouted.
Everything around at once stirred up. The team, throwing breakfast, rushed to the sides. The officers snatched the binoculars from each other's hands ... There was no doubt! On the mast "Novik", this toy cruiser, boldly rushing to the rescue of a lonely destroyer, flew the flag of the fleet commander! ..
Vague talk ran through the ranks of the team ... The officers looked at each other with some kind of not happy, not that bewildered look ...
—- I couldn’t wait! .. I didn’t wait for “Askold” - I moved to “Novik! ..” Damn it! .. This is too much! ..
But it was not "too", but exactly what was required. It was the funeral of the old slogan "not to risk" and replacing it with something completely new ... ".


It must be said that on this night other Russian destroyers also went out to sea - approximately at 01.00, lights were noticed at sea, and S.О. Makarov authorized a detachment of four destroyers to attack the sea. The latter actually found the 4 destroyer of the Japanese and attacked them, but this fight, like the battle of the guarding one, is outside the scope of the topic of our series of articles.

As for Novik, after the unsuccessful morning rescue operation, he and Bayan returned to the external raid and went to the harbor, but immediately became the first targets for the Japanese battleships who started throw-over firing at Lyaoteshan and attempting to aim the passage on the internal raid, on which the cruisers walked, and then firing on the water area of ​​the internal raid. In the course of this bombardment, the Novik did not receive any damage, only a few splinters fell to the deck, without hitting anyone, however.

The next day, February 27, S.O. Makarov led a squadron into the sea for training in joint maneuvering, and of course, the Novik went with the rest of the ships, but nothing interesting happened on that day, and after making various evolutions at different turns, the squadron returned to Port Arthur in the evening.

Then, in the fighting, there was a break, which lasted until the night of March 9, when Japanese destroyers again appeared on the outer roadstead, but were driven away by fire from the patrol vessels. In the afternoon, a Japanese squadron appeared in order to again fire the ships in Port Arthur’s harbor with throw-over fire. However, this time S.O. Makarov brought his main forces to the outer raid, "inviting" the commander of the United Fleet to come close to them for a decisive battle. With a total of five battleships, S.O. Makarov had no hope of crushing the Japanese at sea, but still considered it possible to take the fight under the guise of coastal batteries.

This exit was a completely unprecedented event for the Arthur squadron, because its heavy ships left the inner harbor "low water". The “big water” that day began at 13.30, but already at 12.10 all five battleships were on the outer roadstead, in full readiness for battle. Of course, the cruisers left the harbor even earlier - the exact time when the Novik launched an external raid was unknown, but it arrived there second, after Bayan (07.05) and before Askold (07.40). Nevertheless, the battle still did not take place - the Japanese did not want to be substituted for the fire of coastal batteries, and even an attempt by S.О. Makarov "provoke" the latter with an attack on the armored cruisers of the 2 squad ended with nothing - H. Togo joined his forces, which Stepan Osipovich could not attack anymore, and retreated. As a result, the whole thing was reduced to throw-over shooting - the Japanese again struck a fire strike at the harbor, but received the answer of the Russian artillerymen who had made all the necessary preparations in advance for the reciprocal throw-over shooting. "Novik" 9 March did not show itself in any way and, apparently, did not open fire.

Three days later, the cruiser again left the internal raid, meeting the destroyers returning from patrol, and the next day, March 13, S.O. Makarov again brought a squadron into the sea for evolution, but this time Novik had a special mission. In 05.50, the cruiser entered the outer raid third after Bayan and Askold, but when the squadron, being built, advanced into the sea, Novik and the three destroyers of the 1 squadron, Attentive, Stormy and Battle, were sent to the islands of Miao-tao for their inspection. In 07.10, this small detachment separated from the squadron and went to carry out the order.

Within a few minutes, smoke was discovered, about which Novik reported to the fleet: it turned out to be English transports. However, S.O. Makarov ordered to continue the execution of the order, and the “Ascold” was to inspect the discovered transports. On the way to Novik, several Chinese junks were seen on the way to the Miao-tao islands, but the “Attentive” sent to them did not find anything suspicious. But in 09.05 a small steamer under the Japanese flag was found, coming from the side of Fr. To-ji-tao and who had a junk in tow. He was heading for the "Attentive", apparently taking him for the Japanese destroyer. Immediately, the entire detachment rushed to intercept the Japanese ship, while the “Attentive”, already finished inspecting the junks, was closest to him. The Japanese steamer, having discovered his mistake, tried to escape by lowering the flag, but, of course, he did not succeed - “Attentive”, approaching him, made two shots. Then the steamer stopped, passed back, and began to remove people from the junk towed by him: but, noticing the approach of Novik and two other destroyers, he did not finish his occupation and again tried to escape. "Attentive" lowered the boat to arrest the junks, and he himself went in pursuit and quickly caught up with the Japanese ship - after several shots, it finally stopped, no longer trying to escape by flight.


"Novik" in the inner harbor of Port Arthur


During the inspection, it turned out that the prize to the Russian ships was the Japanese ship “Han-yen-maru”. Later it turned out that he was sent by the Japanese to hire the Chinese junks for the needs of the Japanese fleet, but since they refused to hire, they took them away by force. On board the ship, 10 Japanese were found, 11 Chinese, a lot of papers and a rusty Whitehead mine, apparently caught from the water. Part of the Japanese crew probably consisted of scouts, as some Japanese were identified by our sailors as porters and traders who had worked in Port Arthur before the war. Interestingly describes this moment, Lieutenant A.P. Shter:

“On the bridge stood a handsome Chinese, apparently, the captain of this steamer and haughtily looked at all our actions; he silently stepped off the bridge to my offer to get into the boat and sat down in the aft seat with dignity. Imagine our amazement when the boatswain of the Novik, suspecting of spies in these Chinese, began to feel their heads and triumphantly pulled the Chinese cap with a wig and a scythe from the imaginary captain - the Japanese appeared in front of us, perfectly made up. ”


The captured junk was drowned at once, but the steamer, the bay pre-firebox, was decided to be brought to Port Arthur in tow, which was brought from Novik. However, when the cruiser made a move at 10.00, it developed too much speed, causing the steamer to start scouring, and the tug was pulled out by the windlass, broke the mast and damaged the stem. At Novik, it was decided that the game was not worth the candle, and they drowned it with several shots, after which they went to connect with the squadron at 10.35, which was done without further adventure.

This time, unfortunately, the squadron completed the evolution ahead of time, due to the collision between Peresvet and Sevastopol, as a result of S.O. Makarov ordered to return to Port Arthur, not forgetting, however, to order the ships to check the deviation on the way back.
On the night of 14 in March, the Japanese made another attempt to block the exit from the internal raid of Port Arthur, which was unsuccessful, but Novik did not take part in repelling the night attack. He did not receive an order in 05.02 either, when, after the attack, the destroyers were spotted south of Port Arthur and the coastal batteries opened fire on them. However, heavy Japanese ships appeared around 06.00, and Stepan Osipovich immediately ordered the squadron to go on an external raid. The first, as expected, the order was executed by the cruisers - “Bayan”, “Askold” and “Novik”. At 06.30, the enemy opened fire on the batteries of the Tiger Peninsula, and the cruisers joined them, but the distance to the Japanese was too great, so they soon ceased fire.

According to the Japanese, the Russian cruisers bombarded the destroyers who were rescuing the survivors of the unsuccessful attempt at the barrier, while, according to their words, "Askold" went to the east, and "Bayan" and "Novik" - to the west. Official Japanese historiography does not speak directly about the extreme distances, but notes that the Russians opened fire occasionally, with half of their shells falling undershoots.

In 09.15 S.O. Makarov brought the remaining ships to an external raid and prepared for battle. After the damage of Peresvet and Sevastopol, he had only three battleships: the flagship Petropavlovsk, Poltava and Peresvet, however, their access to the sea showed X. That the attempt to block the passage with firefighters failed. Strangely enough, this time the Japanese did not dare to take the fight and retreated - in 10.00 the main forces of H. Togo hid behind the horizon. The Japanese themselves explain their unwillingness to fight by the fact that the Russian squadron did not depart far from the coast. On the one hand, such a solution looks cautious on the verge of cowardice, since the Japanese had 6 armadillos and 6 armored cruisers against the entire 3 armored and 1 armored cruisers of the Russians. But, obviously, Kh. Togo did not want to be substituted for the coastal artillery guns - the fact is that the Japanese, it seems, had a somewhat wrong impression of its effectiveness. According to some reports, they assumed that most of the hits on their ships in the 27 battle in January, 1904 G, was the result of the shooting of Russian coastal batteries. This was not true, since the study of hits on Japanese ships in comparison with the calibres of the guns that fired at them suggests that our coastal batteries could never hit the enemy even once. Even if this is wrong, and there were still several hits, in any case, the fortress guns of Port Arthur did not play a significant role in that battle. But Kh. Togo, obviously, thought differently, and did not want to provide the Russians with the opportunity to practice shooting at his battleships, especially since relatively recently the Russians showed very accurate throw-over shooting at long distances.

In general, X. Togo chose to retreat, and our cruisers again did not have a reason to excel.

This was the last case in which Novik participated under the command of N.O. von Essen. The very next day, March 15 invited Nikolai Ottovich S.O. Makarov and said that he was going to appoint him commander of the squadron battleship Sevastopol. Two days later, 17 March 1904, under the shouts of "Hurray!" Team, N.O. von Essen left Novik, being in very ambivalent feelings. He wrote to his wife: “... although this is ... and an increase, but I am not very happy about it. I was used to the Novik, and the cruising service was more to my liking, and everyone there knew me ... ”

Command of the cruiser took Maximilian F. von Schultz, about which N.O. von Essen wrote: "He is a brave, energetic and brave officer, and he does not hurt to surrender my brilliant cruiser, knowing that I give in good hands."


Maximilian F. von Schulz (right) with his brother Konstantin against the background of Novik


Of course, von Schulz was an experienced and enterprising officer, but not all of him worked out right away. So, March 29 was almost embarrassed - on this day S.О. Makarov once again led the Pacific squadron to the exercises, and at that time a small Norwegian steamer was discovered, which is unknown as it drifted into these waters. At the signal of the comflot, the Novik set off for inspection. The steamer immediately obeyed the orders, but when Lieutenant A.P. Shter went aboard, von Schulz decided not to sail the ship, but to bring the ship to Port Arthur, which he entrusted to the lieutenant on board the ship. In general, the Novik took the boat and left, and A.P. Stur had to bring the “Norwegian” to Port Arthur in some way. All would be nothing, but there was no corresponding lot on the ship, and even if it had been found, in any case there could not be any mined cans delivered by Russian ships on it ... Further A.P. Shter described it this way:

“In order not to arouse doubts in the captain, I gave a forward course and set off, trying to stick to the jet left behind by the Novik, which can be seen for a long time after its passage; I forgot only that in this place there is a strong current and that the jet presses closer and closer to the shore; in one place they went so close to the stones that even the captain came out of his dejected condition and asked if it was good. I had to assure him that it was so necessary that otherwise we would fall on our own mines. At my misfortune, the captain's wife was present, apparently a very nervous woman; as she heard about the mines, she cried in three streams and let me beg not to drive them in Arthur, but to release them; grabbed me and poured; annoying and ridiculous, and pitiful, especially since the steamer, in my opinion, was clear of all suspicion.
How I managed to safely reach Arthur, I do not understand ... ”.


And then came the tragic day of March 31. As you know, S.O. Makarov ordered a major miner raid on the Elliot Islands, where, according to reports, there could be large Japanese combat and landing forces. The destroyers did not find anyone, but on the way back, the “Terrible”, a breakaway from the main detachment, entered the wake of the Japanese destroyers in the dark and, when the parties recognized each other, were forced to engage in a hopeless battle.

He was assisted by the armored cruiser Bayan, which S.O. Makarov instructed to be ready, at dawn, for a campaign and a battle just for such an occasion. Yet "Bayan" did not have time, by the time he arrived at the scene, the destroyer had already died


The death of the destroyer "terrible"


However, by this time, reinforcements came to the Japanese - the 3-I combat unit, the “dogs” of “Yosino”, “Takasago”, “Chitose” and “Kasagi”, supported by the armored cruisers “Asama” and “Tokiwa”. Despite the obvious inequality of forces and the shells falling around, the Bayan stopped, lowered the six and the whaleboat, and proceeded to rescue the surviving crewmen of the Terrible. Each of the boats saved two people, and another managed to be raised directly to the cruiser, and in total, five people were saved, and at that time Bayan was fighting. Then, the cruiser, despite the fact that it was observed from two or three more people, sailing, holding on to the wreckage, was forced to raise the boats and returned to Port Arthur: people were taken too far, and to save them, being under fire of six cruisers, no longer possible.

Upon learning that the "Bayan" joined the battle, S.O. In 05.40, Makarov ordered the Diana cruiser on duty to go to his aid, and Askold and Noviku urgently need to breed couples. Shortly thereafter, he was informed about the appearance of six Japanese cruisers - assuming that the main forces of the Japanese were probably following them, Stepan Osipovich in 06.00 ordered the squadron battleships to pick up pairs and in readiness to go to the outer raid.

In 06.40, the Novik launched an external raid, with Diana and three destroyers on it. They saw the Bayan on the cruiser, which was about three miles from the Novik, and immediately went to him: and in the 3-4 miles from the Bayan, the already mentioned six Japanese cruisers could be seen. Having approached the Bayan, the Novik apparently went to his wake, obviously, by this time the distance to the Japanese cruisers was already too great, so the Novik commanders did not shoot. Following the "Bayan", "Novik" returned to the external raid and entered the wake of the squadron of cruisers.

07.00 went to Petropavlovsk on an external raid, followed by a quarter of an hour later - Poltava, but the rest of the battleships were delayed, as the strong wind did not allow the port boats to quickly deploy their noses to the entrance, and Peresvet in 07.45, removing from the anchor He also managed to stick to the shoals, with which he acted only half an hour later. At the same time, Stepan Osipovich, having learned from the commander of “Bayan” that he was unable to save several people from the “Watchman” crew, led his detachment into the sea. In this case, the system, apparently, was so - the first, showing the way, went "Bayan", followed by the flagship "Petropavlovsk", to which Poltava and a squadron of cruisers walked into the wake. The destroyers were abeam the Poltava.

Approximately at 08.00, going to the place of the death of “The Terrible” on the “Bayan”, which took the lead far ahead, found the Japanese cruisers 6, its commander, Robert Nikolaevich Vyren, raised the signal “I See the Enemy”. In 08.15, the Japanese from a distance 50-60 cables opened fire on Bayan. C.O. Makarov ordered his only armored cruiser to take his place in the ranks of cruisers, which was done. Then, as the Japanese noted in their official historiography: “The enemy, taking advantage in strength, took an offensive course of action and headed towards the detachment.” At this time, the structure of the Russian ships was: “Petropavlovsk”, “Poltava” (mistakenly identified by the Japanese as “Sevastopol”), “Askold”, “Bayan”, “Diana”, and “Novik”.

Why S.O. Makarov did not use the Novik for its intended purpose, for reconnaissance of the enemy, but put it at the very tail of the column, from where the cruiser did not shoot a single shot? We cannot know this for sure, but, probably, the reasons of the Russian commander were as follows. Taking the squadron from Port Arthur, he already knew that six Japanese cruisers were somewhere nearby, and the horizon in the direction where the enemy was expected was covered with fog. In this situation, any intelligence officer risked being detected by superior forces at a distance, although quite large, but still allowing the possibility of heavy projectile hits. It is obvious that “Bayan”, also conceived by its creators as a scout for the squadron, in such a situation was much better suited for this role, and besides, had to show the place of the death of “The Terrible”. Joining "Bayan" and even "Novik", obviously, did nothing in terms of intelligence, almost did not strengthen the artillery power of "Bayan", but created the risk of heavy damage to "Novik".

Further well known. Soon 9 of Japanese ships appeared on the horizon, which were identified as 6 battleships on the Russian squadron, 2 armored cruisers (these were Nissin and Kasuga, which first appeared near Port Arthur) and the “Chin-Ien” type ship. Of course, a small Russian detachment could not fight with such forces, and Stepan Osipovich ordered the retreat, and on the way back the cruisers and destroyers went ahead, and the battleships covered their retreat, as it were. Then, returning to the outer raid, S.O. Makarov decided, as has already been repeatedly before, to fight the Japanese under the guise of coastal batteries, but, coming to the position, Petropavlovsk exploded.

After the death of the flagship battleship, the ships stopped the course and proceeded to rescue the survivors. Then, the junior flagship of the squadron, Prince Ukhtomsky, took her back to the internal raid, but “Victory” was blown up while trying to enter service. Not understanding that the cause of all this was mines exposed at night from Japanese destroyers, the squadron decided on ships that they were attacked by submarines and opened fire on the water, aiming at any target that could resemble a submarine periscope. Thus, Novik used up 3 * 120-mm, 12 * 47mm and 4 * 37-mm projectile. Alas, but in 31 March 1904, our armored cruiser did not fire a single shot at the real enemy ships - the squadron returned to the internal raid, and in the same place 13.20 anchored Novik.

To be continued ...
Author:
Articles from this series:
Armored decked lightning. Cruiser II rank "Novik"
Armored decked lightning. The cruiser of the second rank "Novik". Design features
Armored decked lightning. Cruiser II rank "Novik". Cost / Efficiency Criterion
Armored decked lightning. Cruiser II rank "Novik". Fight 27 January 1904 g.
Armored decked lightning. Cruiser II rank "Novik". Not yet arrived S.O. Makarov
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  1. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 12 January 2019 10: 06
    +1
    and the horizon to the side where the enemy was expected was torn by fog. In this situation, any scout risked being detected by superior forces at a distance, although large enough, but still allowing the possibility of being hit by heavy shells.

    what So the scouts exist to provide information about the enemy in advance! They are being built for this! What if, under the cover of haze, the enemy gets close and suddenly strikes? Or is it better all the same "yes, her, this reconnaissance, if the faq did not happen to the ship"? request
    In fact, all the cruisers of the PA squadron (acrome "goddesses") were scouts, designed to ensure the actions of the EBR, if they are currently operating with battleships. These are their functions. The rest is all from the evil one and you can find a bunch of excuses for any non-standard situation.
    Your task is to be the eyes for your commander before a collision with the enemy, to give information about the enemy’s course, composition, actions, so that your main forces are prepared at the time of the collision.
    Yes, gave Stepan Osipovich a blow recourse ... Although it is easy for us to reason from our bell tower, it was better for the direct participants to know the motives of their actions ....
    Article five, look forward to continuing good hi
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      12 January 2019 10: 26
      0
      Quote: Rurikovich
      So scouts exist for that, in order to give information about the enemy in advance! They are built for this!

      That's right, only in the current situation it was more appropriate to use "Bayan" rather than "Novik" - for obvious reasons. And that was done.
    2. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 12 January 2019 10: 35
      +1
      And to give the presence of "Novik" in this situation?
    3. WW2
      WW2 12 January 2019 12: 16
      -8
      Quote: Rurikovich
      So scouts exist for that, in order to give information about the enemy in advance!
      In fact, the reconnaissance cruisers did not give any information to anyone. These were ships guarding the water area near (and not so) naval bases.
      Quote: Rurikovich
      In fact, all the cruisers of the PA squadron (acroma "goddesses") were scouts

      But nothing that the Varangian and Boyarin were trade cruiser-fighters?
      Quote: Rurikovich
      They entered into scouts who were called upon to ensure the actions of the EDB, if they were currently operating with armadillos.

      In fact, it was not the scout cruisers who interacted with the EDB, but the advice notes.
      Scout cruisers, this is generally from another opera. With EDB nm as it does not intersect.
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Your task is to be the eyes for your commander before a collision with the enemy, to give information about the enemy’s course, composition, actions, so that your main forces are prepared at the time of the collision.

      Ok, I see. Clear misunderstanding of the issue. And a misunderstanding of the terminology. The memos are confused with the intelligence scouts.
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 12 January 2019 13: 34
        +7
        Nikolasha, are you again? laughing
        Quote: WW2
        Clear misunderstanding of the issue.

        Nikolasha, shouldn't intelligence provide the right information? wink
        Quote: WW2
        The memos are confused with the intelligence scouts.

        Aviso (Spanish aviso, Italian. Avviso “notice”), a messenger ship or an advise ship [1] - a small military, relatively high-speed ship, which was used for reconnaissance and messenger service in the XVII-XIX centuries [2]. Notices were not specially built in the Russian fleet, and outdated ships (ships) were usually used for this purpose.

        Aviso, Nikolasha, highly specialized vessels, are intended more for messenger service and communications than for intelligence yes
        Although anything could happen in your fabulous pink-purple classifications lol
        For example, this
        Quote: WW2
        But nothing that the Varangian and Boyarin were trade cruiser-fighters?

        Had fun for dinner laughing , borsch will eat pleasantly and with a mood wink
  2. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 12 January 2019 10: 31
    +2
    Still, in vain Makarov transferred Essen to “Sevastopol”. Well, okay, "Bayan" is my fantasy (which I often implement in AI :)), but Boisman then screwed up Chernyshev no less ...
  3. WW2
    WW2 12 January 2019 11: 51
    -12
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    in this state, the Pacific squadron could not give the United Fleet a general battle

    I don’t even have to watch the author. I can easily guess by the degree of nonsense wearable.
    I did not plan to give 1 TOE to the YIF of the general battle. And never gave it. Even in the Yellow Sea there was not a battle, but an unsuccessful attempt to break into Vladivostok.
    The 1st TOE did not have the strength to give this battle. But this author cannot understand this in any way.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    The Russian fleet could not gain dominance at sea, and with this, reluctantly, for some time it was still possible to reconcile

    Author, by what forces should they have done this? Using hairs from Khattabych's beard?
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    the struggle for the sea should not have been postponed until the Retvisan, Tsesarevich and Pallada returned to service. It had to start right now, with the restoration of control over the water area at Port Arthur

    Indeed, let's regain control.
    Only it is not clear what forces and means.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Stepan Osipovich Makarov understood all this well.

    He didn’t understand anything, it seems. Otherwise, I would do business. And not garbage with destroyers.
    Perhaps he was the weakest 1TOE commander in the entire history of the PA's defense. But the most "active".
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    when S.O. Makarov learned the circumstances of the case, he immediately went to sea to the rescue of the “Guardian”, holding the flag on “Novik”, followed by “Bayan”.

    First-year lieutenant’s habits were expensive 1TOE. Petropavlovsk was lost with almost the entire crew. Yes, and Vereshchagin feel sorry.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    However, this time S.O. Makarov led his main forces to an external raid, “inviting” the commander of the United Fleet to get closer to them for a decisive battle. With only five battleships, S.O. Makarov had no hope of defeating the Japanese at sea, but still considered it possible to accept the battle under the cover of coastal batteries.

    Why did he decide that the Japanese are fools?
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    3rd combat detachment, “dogs” “Ioshino”, “Takasago”, “Chitose” and “Kasagi”, supported by the armored cruisers “Asama” and “Tokiva”. Despite the obvious inequality of power and the shells falling around, the Bayan stopped

    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    S.O. Makarov at 05.40 ordered the Diana cruiser on duty to go to his aid, and Askold and Novik urgently make couples.

    Diana, Askold and Novik with Bayan against Asama and Tokiva.
    This is not a combat activity. This is her imitation and deception. Asama and Tokiwa would crush this "group of cruisers" with one left. In 15 minutes.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Why S.O. Makarov did not use Novik for its intended purpose, for reconnaissance of the enemy

    Yes, because Novik was not intended for intelligence. It was a reconnaissance cruiser. Those. water area protection ship. And intelligence for the linear forces of the fleet was engaged in advises.
    The author does not know basic things.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Obviously, the "Bayan", also conceived by its creators as a scout at the squadron

    Scouts at a squadron of linear forces were called advice notes. The reconnaissance cruisers were involved in the protection of the water area in the area of ​​the BM bases.
    The author does not know basic things.
    However, "writes articles."
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    S.O. Makarov decided, as has been done several times before, to fight the Japanese under cover of coastal batteries

    Knowing well from the past times that the Japanese would not accept a fight under such conditions.
    Here is some small Makarov. Bustle with torpedo boats, bustle with coastal exits, bustle with cruisers. He does not pull on the naval commander. And even an ordinary admiral does not pull. There are really no actions, only "ebullient activity".
    Witgeft also did not organize raider work. But the order he had was different, to bring the whole herd of different types of troughs (the squadron did not smell there) to Vladik. And so, that he could, did. For example, a mine can in the international transport corridor, took a chance, put it.
    But Makarov, no, he didn’t. It was busy with petty fuss because.
    1. arturpraetor
      arturpraetor 12 January 2019 13: 35
      +4
      Oh, just yesterday you remembered how your health? Do you continue to develop AI classifications? Ah, but who cares ... laughing

      PS Yes, the reconnaissance cruiser should not be reconnaissance - this is strong!
      PPS Already 33-th nickname in the list of Faces of Madness went!
      1. WW2
        WW2 12 January 2019 13: 51
        -4
        Quote: arturpraetor
        PS Yes, the reconnaissance cruiser should not be reconnaissance - this is strong!

        Strong, not strong, but "scout cruiser" is an unfortunate translation into Russian of English "Scout cruiser" (cruiser scout). Especially for you, as a person who speaks English, I will clarify that "intelligence" in English is "intelligence". And the "reconnaissance ship" is an "intelligence ship".
        Therefore, if the British had in mind intelligence, they would have written "intelligence cruiser". Therefore, the whole point is in a crooked translation.
        Learn English, come in handy.
        And further. Check the typical range for an EBR from that era. And the range of the alleged "scouts with the squadron." Be very surprised. The scouts, it turns out, had to follow the squadron in tow. Otherwise, nothing. They had coal (the nearest scout-scouts) with Gulkin's nose. Where are they to EBR.
        1. arturpraetor
          arturpraetor 12 January 2019 14: 02
          +8
          The level of knowledge of English is amazing wassat No one would call a reconnaissance cruiser "intelligence cruiser" in English. in other languages, some words may have a slightly different meaning, and for a literal translation of a text from English into Russian, any schoolboy will get a bad mark from the teacher yes And this is not to mention a small detail, with which you, as always, did it to the fullest - the Russian word "intelligence" in English has many analogues that are contextually different. Intelligence is a narrow term that is used mainly in relation to certain departments and their activities, while in the army another term is adopted - reconnaissance, meaning the very search for the enemy, military reconnaissance as a process. There is another term that can be literally translated into Russian as reconnaissance, only in the sense of surveying any area - scouting. It was from him that the cruiser-scouts went, who are engaged in these matters - they are examining the water surface in the interests of big slow brothers. There are a few more terms that also mean exploration, but I'm afraid to overload your mind, already busy with alt-classifications of ships and alternative translations into other languages, so that's it.

          Tell your school English teacher what you need to enroll in additional English classes, otherwise you don’t know the basics bully
        2. 27091965
          27091965 12 January 2019 18: 27
          +3
          Quote: WW2
          Especially for you, as a person who speaks English, I will clarify that "intelligence" in English is "intelligence". And the "reconnaissance ship" is an "intelligence ship".


          Find this book, if you are proficient enough in English, from it you will learn what the terms "intelligence" and "scout" were used for at that time in the English Navy.


          It was written by an admiral of the English Navy.
          1. WW2
            WW2 12 January 2019 18: 55
            -2
            Quote: 27091965i
            Find this book, if you are proficient enough in English, from it you will learn what the terms "intelligence" and "scout" were used for at that time in the English Navy.

            Quote: 27091965i
            It was written by an admiral of the English Navy.

            It may be recognized.
            Maybe I don’t know.
            One thing I know for sure is that the Scout cruisers were not engaged in any reconnaissance during the squadron of linear forces. If only because they did not have any technical capabilities for this.
            The same Bayan and Novik each had 3,5 thousand m. range. Despite the fact that the EBR, depending on the class, went 5-7 thousand m. Such "scouts with the squadron" would be a burden for the EBR, as they would constrain their actions.
            This is obvious to any student. And for this you do not need to study the works of British admirals.
            And again, probably the last.
            Scout cruisers were fleet base ships. And they were engaged in the protection of the water area adjacent to this base.
            In particular, Novik and Bayan were short-range Scout cruisers (scout cruisers). And Askold from the same company.
            There were still long-range actions (Athlete).
            And directly on and around the raid was a firewall. This is mainly the convoy (they are also colonial) cruiser Pallas / Dian.
            That's just the task of the escort cruisers was to cover the destroyers at the time of their sorties on an external raid and a little further. And at all this was not a task for Novik and Boyarin.
            And the second one was a trade fighter cruiser. Like the Varangian. Boyar - neighbor, Varangian, distant.
            Moreover, the fleet’s linear forces are in this base or not, it didn’t matter. Fleet BASE cruisers and LINEAR FORCES, these were DIFFERENT STRUCTURES.
            Ideally, of course.
            In the Russian Navy, Varyag (a cruiser of a trade fighter) could easily be sent instead of a hospital (the task is maximum for a convoy cruiser) to Chemulpo.
            And on the distant and large cruiser scout (Bogatyr), the admiral could drive to a nearby bay to chat.
            A small cruiser-fighter (Boyarin) trade could easily be used for power support of the same destroyers. Although fighter cruisers are generally not designed for fire contacts (Varyag also applies).
            That's from the fact that cabbage soup slurped mainly with bast shoes, that war and about ..... rallied.
            And here, on this site, the same specialists are discussing how it would be more clever to "give the Japanese a general battle." At that time, even in ITOE then they understood that there was nothing to "fight in general" with. Even after Vitgeft destroyed 1 of their EBRs, there is still nothing.
            And it also kills the endless discussion of the topic "how the Varyag could poke the Japanese under Chemulpo."
            Could not lay down. Under no circumstances. Since there was nothing to crutch. Asama, in any case, would have torn him like a Tuzik heating pad. Moreover, very quickly. It’s like to arm yourself with a slingshot and stand to death before the rink.
            The result is predictable in advance. But for local specialists it is not obvious.
            1. Rurikovich
              Rurikovich 12 January 2019 20: 40
              +3
              Quote: WW2
              It may be recognized.
              Maybe I don’t know.

              To be, or not to be, that is the question ...

              Quote: WW2
              The same Bayan and Novik each had 3,5 thousand m. range. Despite the fact that the EBR, depending on the class, went 5-7 thousand m. Such "scouts with the squadron" would be a burden for the EBR, as they would constrain their actions.

              Hm ... What a "burden" could be "Bayan" (3900m.m - all the following cruising range will be 10uz.) And "Novik" (3500) for a squadron, which includes ships with a cruising range of 3750m.m ( EBR type "Poltava")? request Yes, "Tsesarevich" (5500), "Retvizan" (4900) were newer, "Peresvets" (6200) were generally
              Hybrid cruiser and armadillo for long operations in the ocean with a long cruising range and excellent seaworthiness due to the weakening of weapons and protection

              So in fact, the range of the EDB did not differ from that for the cruisers assigned to them
              Quote: WW2
              In particular, Novik and Bayan were short-range Scout cruisers (scout cruisers). And Askold from the same company.

              Well, if "Askold" with its 4300 meters was close, and "Bogatyr" (4900) was distant, then at other speeds these ships strangely change places: "Bogatyr" from 2760 to 12 knots. becomes close, and "Askold" from 3250 to 13,5 knots. distant ????
              Quote: WW2
              And directly on and around the raid was a firewall. This is mainly the convoy (they are also colonial) cruiser Pallas / Dian.

              belay
              Designed as "trade fighters", being halved (in displacement and armament) version of the armored cruisers of the "Rurik" series

              Quote: WW2
              That's just the task of the escort cruisers was to cover the destroyers at the time of their sorties on an external raid and a little further. And at all this was not a task for Novik and Boyarin.

              what "Trade fighters" in the role of cover for destroyers, and cruisers to cover for destroyers (and this function, in addition to intelligence, was awarded to "Novik" and "Boyarin" by officials from the Admiralty when ordering them) should have been
              Quote: WW2
              A small cruiser fighter (Boyarin) trade
              ?
              Nikolay, I highly recommend you write an article on this resource fellow After all, these petty little people should know the real purpose of the described ships !!! am wassat
              And if the
              Quote: WW2
              Although fighter cruisers are generally not designed for fire contacts (the Varangian also applies).

              Then why arm them at all? laughing
              Nikolay, write an article on the classification, I ask you, I will often re-read it when I want to cheer up yes I already have a stomach ache with laughter ... Maybe when people learn your classification works entirely, they will discover something unknown and sacred ...
              At least try ... Please ...
              I’m not asking for myself, but for everyone ... repeat winked
      2. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 12 January 2019 20: 43
        +1
        Quote: arturpraetor
        PPS Already 33-th nickname in the list of Faces of Madness went!

        Andrei counted only 20, but I don’t count for a long time ... laughing wink drinks hi
    2. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 12 January 2019 13: 49
      +3
      Quote: WW2
      Yes, because Novik was not intended for intelligence. It was a reconnaissance cruiser. Those. water area protection ship. And intelligence for the linear forces of the fleet engaged in advice

      laughing laughing laughing Dreamlike thought .... fool
      I wonder why this is called the 1st reconnaissance group of the battlecruisers of the Hipper are not called advice notes. what request And the light cruisers Bediker of the 2nd reconnaissance group, which carried out reconnaissance directly for the 1st reconnaissance group, are also, by a strange coincidence, not called "advice notes"? ... They carry out reconnaissance, and do not guard the water area ... belay
      Nikolasha, you have fun worse than recognized comedians drinks wassat good laughing laughing laughing
      I have a good mood for the day fellow
    3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      12 January 2019 14: 03
      +3
      Interestingly, there are people in the world who can take seriously at least something from this stream of consciousness? :) If there is, ask, I will answer :)
    4. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 12 January 2019 14: 30
      +3
      Quote: WW2
      The reconnaissance cruisers were involved in the protection of the water area in the area of ​​the BM bases.

      In the era of the steam fleet, the gunboat is an artillery ship for operations on rivers, in skerries, in the coastal zone. Could perform the functions of COASTAL DEFENSE, PORT DEFENSE, river estuaries, landing assaults, supporting their troops on the shore, supporting the landing of their assault forces and other auxiliary tasks (demonstration of the flag in the colonies, escort, transportation of goods).

      I specially singled out "coastal defense" and "port defense", so that the "sophisticated" man of our era in terms of classifying ships, the luminary, so to speak, understood that more specialized ships were intended for the defense of ports, for conducting patrol service at ports, rather than scout cruisers laughing
    5. The Siberian barber
      The Siberian barber 12 January 2019 14: 46
      +1
      Why don't you write an article with your own vision of what is happening?)) Besides criticism, so far, there is nothing ..
      1. WW2
        WW2 12 January 2019 15: 05
        -4
        Quote: The Siberian Barber
        In addition to criticism, so far, there is nothing ..

        And this site will not.
        But I can point out the most obvious shoals of local specialists. Here's how the scout cruiser translates from the English term on a curve.
        But I am afraid, and this is in vain, I do not think that such an audience is capable of understanding anything other than "books by venerable authors."
        By the way, I already indicated that Melnikov mixed up the indicator forces and kilowatts. There is generally the clearest example of his incompetence, a kilowatt something differs significantly from the indicator power. And the mismatch is just plain there.
        And they didn't believe it either. "This is what Melnikov wrote." And that's all. An irresistible "argument".
        Therefore, I do not even plan to write anything. Let Chelyabinsk Andrei write. This audience likes his works, let them have fun further.
        1. The Siberian barber
          The Siberian barber 12 January 2019 15: 48
          +1
          Why is the "audience" bad for you ??)
          This resource is visited by many distinguished people who have done a lot, as experts in their field, for their homeland, and simply not indifferent to what is connected with it)
          I think that it would not be uninteresting for everyone to read your thoughts.
          Or give a link where possible
          1. WW2
            WW2 12 January 2019 16: 03
            -4
            Quote: The Siberian Barber
            Why is the "audience" bad for you ??)

            You in detail or briefly?
            Quote: The Siberian Barber
            This resource is visited by many distinguished people who have done a lot, as experts in their field, for their homeland, and simply not indifferent to what is connected with it)

            No, there are none, I think. You're wrong.
            Quote: The Siberian Barber
            I think that it would not be uninteresting for everyone to read your thoughts.

            Give it up. It doesn't interest anyone. Since I do not conduct conversations in the style "Melnikov wrote this on page 236", but "Pupkin wrote this on page 65".
            And other options for obtaining information do not work.
            Quote: The Siberian Barber
            Or give a link to a resource where possible

            But I'll think about it. He is. But I don’t invite anyone there and as a rule I don’t give links. And my comments there are disabled. Those. not a discussion club explicitly.
            1. Comrade
              Comrade 13 January 2019 03: 59
              +5
              Quote: WW2
              But I'll think about it. He is. But I don’t invite anyone there and as a rule I don’t give links. And my comments there are disabled. Those. not a discussion club clearly

              Well, this is understandable, as usual, you are discussing with yourself at your leisure ..

              AI old-timers will probably remember how you, having two profiles at the same time (Passer и hotels), in the discussions imitated the communication of two users. They themselves asked questions and answered them right away, praised themselves and sent emails to themselves, about which they themselves informed themselves in the commentary.
              In general, Nikolai, sincerely thank you for being there! You will come home in the evening, tired, plagued, you will read a couple of your comments, and all fatigue has completely disappeared. You sit and laugh, because when you are in a blow, Raikin and Zhvanetsky are not suitable for you.
              1. WW2
                WW2 13 January 2019 10: 37
                -1
                Quote: The Siberian Barber
                Why is the "audience" bad for you ??)

                Quote: Comrade
                Well, this is understandable, as usual, you are discussing with yourself at your leisure ..

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                This character with his ideas was noted on every more or less noticeable navy resource.

                Quote: Rurikovich
                Nikolay, I highly recommend you

                Quote: arturpraetor
                Already the 33rd nickname in the list of Faces of Madness has gone!

                Any questions? This is the same gangway of madmen in fact. In the truest sense of the word.
                Why would crazy explain something? They need to be treated. In special medical institutions.
                1. Comrade
                  Comrade 13 January 2019 18: 57
                  +2
                  Quote: WW2
                  Any questions?

                  Only one. If everyone here is crazy, what You here on "gangway crazy"Do you? I will clarify the question with an abstract example. Not being a homosexual, I do not go to" gay pride parades ", but you, obviously considering yourself normal, come here over and over again.
                  Answer if you can, hehe ..
          2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            12 January 2019 16: 39
            +1
            Quote: The Siberian Barber
            I think that it would not be uninteresting for everyone to read your thoughts.

            All of them have long been revered - this character with his ideas was noted on every more or less noticeable naval resource. Of course, his "many-wise" calculations were not appreciated anywhere, and he walks around as a lone genius under 100500 names (they ban him mercilessly).
            1. WW2
              WW2 12 January 2019 18: 14
              -3
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              This character with his ideas was noted on every more or less noticeable navy resource.

              Why lie?
              Well, you don’t know the materiel.
              Well, they pointed you to this.
              Why are you trying to expose the one who pointed out in a bad light?
              What, everyone will immediately understand from this that you know the materiel?
              Some strange person.
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                12 January 2019 18: 24
                +1
                Quote: WW2
                Why lie?

                Kohl, well, don’t, huh :))))) Yes, from my site alone, I’ve been thrown out of 20 in my memory.
                Quote: WW2
                Well, you don’t know the materiel.
                Well, they pointed you to this.

                Well, once again, Colin was thrown into the asphalt to the laughter of others :))))
                Quote: WW2
                Why are you trying to expose the one who pointed out in a bad light?

                Why would I do this if you can handle it a lot better than me? And I just explain to the person who you are so that he does not waste time. He doesn’t know that you are hopeless, but I - I know, it’s good that I know you not for the first year
                1. WW2
                  WW2 12 January 2019 18: 26
                  -5
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Kolya, well, don’t, huh :))

                  Well, how to communicate with this? I give him arguments, and he gives me some Kolya.
                  No, this one is hopeless.
        2. Scaffold
          Scaffold 23 January 2019 20: 07
          0
          https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/scout

          2A ship or aircraft employed for reconnaissance, especially a small, fast aircraft.

          ... you are our clown. laughing

          intelligence cruiser. lol lol lol lol
  4. anzar
    anzar 12 January 2019 14: 34
    +3
    .... and the horizon to the side where the enemy was expected was torn by fog. In this situation, any scout risked being detected by superior forces at a distance, although large enough, but still allowing the possibility of being hit by heavy shells

    +++ Here's what we discussed in the previous article of the cycle - for "reconnaissance with an eskadr" six-thousanders are better suited, even better - "armored six-thousanders" (Bayan). In that sense, Novik is neither fish nor meat, his best purpose (and in Arthur) is to go out at night with the Esminians, catching up and drowning the enemy.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      12 January 2019 14: 42
      +1
      Quote: anzar
      +++ Here is what we discussed in the previous article in the series

      Dear colleague, I therefore analyze in such detail every case of going out to sea. We will build up a statistical base, and from it we will already judge the capabilities of the cruiser. By the way, I agree with you very much
      1. anzar
        anzar 12 January 2019 15: 20
        0
        We’ll build up a statistical base, and we’ll already judge from it ...

        Of course, dear colleague, let's wait ... her, kind of decent ((- Pensioning on the way ..))
    2. arturpraetor
      arturpraetor 12 January 2019 14: 44
      +1
      Quote: anzar
      Here's what we discussed in the previous article of the cycle - for "reconnaissance with an accelerator", six-thousanders are better suited, even better - "armored six-thousanders" (Bayan).

      So it is so, but do not forget about the economic component. From this point of view, having 2 cheaper cruisers with the ability to easily lose one of them is preferable to building 1 expensive armored cruiser. The economies of the powers of that time were bad at building expensive and numerous ships - here, as they say, "we build quickly, cheaply and efficiently, choose any two points" laughing And the number of ships is no less important factor than their quality, if there is an 1-2 reconnaissance for the entire squadron, it will not be very convenient.

      And yes, armored six-thousanders in this situation are slightly better, the same ships unprotected from heavy artillery, only as targets are more convenient, larger laughing "Bayan" looks much more profitable, but it is not cheap, and one thing in total, and less versatile than all sorts of small armored decks ... So, IMHO, by the standards of the late XIX - early XX centuries there should be several armored scouts, plus a significant number of rank II armored vehicles. The 1st TOE went to this, but did not come - "Bayan" one of a kind remained at its disposal, large armored decks were used situationally, and "Novik" quickly found itself, like "Bayan", in splendid isolation. Now if (favorite turn of AIshnikov wassat ) add his sistership to "Bayan", and to bring "stones" to the beginning of the RYAV to the Far East - it would be a completely different conversation.
      1. anzar
        anzar 12 January 2019 15: 35
        0
        ..have 2 cheaper cruisers with the ability to easily lose one of them is preferable to build 1 expensive armored cruiser

        It depends on what (purpose) dear colleague. And purely in battle (as a scout), it is more likely to lose both "cheap" ones than one armored one (ie, Bayan is more profitable than Novik and Boyarin). But in general, if you take into account all kinds of navigation. accidents, mines ... it will be ambiguous.
        ... if there are 1-2 scouts on the entire squadron, it will not work out very conveniently.

        Why? I think how two scouts are enough. And if you mean the protection of the linear fleet from VR. destroyers - yes, there you need to have more cheap ones. But, as said uv. Andrei UTB will discuss later.
        1. arturpraetor
          arturpraetor 12 January 2019 15: 45
          +1
          Quote: anzar
          Why? I think how 2 scouts are seized.

          If scouts of all types of 2 pieces per squadron - this is a huge problem. Because
          - if one of the scouts gets damaged, or, God forbid, dies, we have only 1 ship left;
          - if one of the scouts needs to be sent for repair during the war, we only have 1 ship left;
          - in the interests of the squadron, reconnaissance in several directions may be necessary, i.e. the composition of the intelligence forces will have to be divided, i.e. we send one scout in each direction, and God forbid one of them runs into superior forces, he is not very lucky, and he will suffer severe damage or, God forbid, die;
          - intelligence implies a battle with enemy intelligence. both short-term (establishing contact with enemy forces) and long-term (dispersal of enemy intelligence), if we only have 2 warships, then we can already be in the minority, and God forbid one of them gets damaged during the battle, or, God forbid, perish ....
          And so on. If all the reconnaissance forces of the fleet / squadron (1 th TOE can be regarded as a fleet) are reduced to just a couple of ships, this means extremely constrained reconnaissance forces, and greater sensitivity to any losses. Ideally, reconnaissance forces should consist of the backbone of heavy armored ships and numerous cheap units, as before the Tsushima the Japanese did with their BrKr and BpKr, like the Germans and the British from the line. cruisers and light cruisers, etc. Reconnaissance based on destroyers and armored cruisers alone is unstable during the time of the REV. Intelligence based on BrKr alone, because of their high cost, is small and limited in capabilities. The interaction of the armed forces, tobish classes of ships - our everything. At least I think so.
          1. anzar
            anzar 12 January 2019 16: 06
            +1
            Reconnaissance based on destroyers and armored cruisers alone is unstable during the time of the REV. Intelligence based on BrKr alone, because of their high cost, is small and limited in capabilities. The interaction of the armed forces, tobish classes of ships ...

            Yeah, it's better to be rich and healthy ....)) In real life in Arthur for intelligence there was ONE Brk, ONE BpK 1klassa and ONE BpK 2klassa (not very cheap). As you said, choose any two ...))))
            1. arturpraetor
              arturpraetor 12 January 2019 16: 30
              0
              Quote: anzar
              Yeah, it's better to be rich and healthy ....))

              No, just effective reconnaissance by only one class of ships will cost about the same as the cost of asymmetric answers - i.e. even more expensive. Only the leading economies of the world could afford to build only one more or less numerous BrKr, or a huge number of exchangeable BqKr, and then - the UK preferred to build this and that, just in space quantities.
              Quote: anzar
              In real life in Arthur there was ONE Brk, ONE BpK 1 class and ONE BpK 2 class for intelligence (not very cheap)

              The squadron in Arthur was not fully formed, so it didn't work out very well. In addition, in Russia, the development of the cruising class was systematically ignored, with the exception of "trade fighters" - which resulted in 3 huge and little-useful "Rurikovich" along with slightly smaller and even less useful BpKr 1st rank. In fact, the emphasis on the development of cruising forces was made only after 1898, and it is difficult to rivet these forces in 6 years. And yes, at the beginning of the war, the 1st TOE included 2 BpKr of the 2nd rank, just one quickly drowned. Well, the "goddesses" with the "Varyag" could be used as reconnaissance - they were still faster than battleships, but there are a lot of reservations, and even one "goddess" was knocked out at the beginning of the war, and the "Varyag" was completely in Chemulpo toyvo, well toyvo , you get the idea.

              This is all, by the way, a clear illustration of why it is harmful to have small intelligence forces - they are very sensitive to losses. With the original composition, reconnaissance in the interests of the 1st TOE could have been carried out, plus or minus, a sufficient number of ships, but two ships were drowned, one damaged - and that's all, Bayan and Novik are running out of steam.
              1. anzar
                anzar 12 January 2019 17: 06
                0
                No, just effective reconnaissance with only one class of ships will cost about as muchhow much asymmetric answers cost - i.e. even more expensive...

                I didn’t understand this, it was “at the same rate, then” even more expensive. But all the same, we will not drive the theory, consider how there is in Arthur, and there they do not live by intelligence alone.
                .
                ..illustration of why small intelligence forces are detrimental - they are very sensitive to losses.

                Let's say you haven't lost anyone, what would have been better? In general, the role (necessity) of intelligence is overestimated there. Race to the horizon and return with the "see the enemy" signal? So what if you have 3-4 fewer battleships than you need?
                Once raised the issue of value, it became interesting. In real life, by the beginning of the war there were 5 pennants (Bayan, Askold, Varyag, Novik, Boyarin - we don’t touch the goddesses, they are cash) on 25,5 mil rubles
                Here are the (viola) options, as you said "two out of three")):
                1 * Bayan and 2 * Novika - 3 mil. rub. (do not forget that the second Bayan is 25,3 mil cheaper.)
                2 * Bayan and 2 * Askold - 2 mil. rub.
                3. 5 * Askold - 25,9 mil. rub.
                Your decision? We only note that if the Varyag-type Bayan, he could leave (with damage) rather. As for the need for close protection of night mining)) I can’t say anything - I would drown / I wouldn’t drown a big ship ...
                1. arturpraetor
                  arturpraetor 12 January 2019 17: 36
                  0
                  Quote: anzar
                  I didn’t understand it, sometimes "at the same rate, then" even more expensive

                  I mean, emphasizing one class of ships as the basis of reconnaissance is something like an asymmetric answer, and it will cost, like any asymmetric answer, more expensive than usual.
                  Quote: anzar
                  In general, the role (necessity) of intelligence there is overestimated.

                  The role of intelligence has traditionally been underestimated in the Slavic states, armies and fleets, I have come to this conclusion already a very, very long time ago. Without reconnaissance, the squadron is blind and deaf, and is in a losing position, having no information about the enemy’s strength and position in advance, having little time to react to his actions. Such information, when used correctly, is already the lion's share of victory. Only during prolonged troops, after heavy losses and mistakes made on the basis of lousy intelligence, this intelligence itself was brought to a high level, but after the war ended everything again went in one place.
                  Quote: anzar
                  Your choice?

                  Option number 1, of course - in option 2 there are only 4 pennants, which is not enough, and in option 3 there are only armored decks, which immediately implies the low stability of our reconnaissance forces. And, I will note that by the beginning of the RYA, the shipbuilding program was not fully completed, and not even all the ships had time to overtake to the Far East. So option number 1 is 2 Bayans and 3 Noviks by the beginning of the war, and about the same number in the plans. And 3-4 "Bayan" and 5-6 "Novikov" are already powerful reconnaissance forces, capable not only of reconnaissance, but also of performing other functions. And, most importantly, the loss of 1-2 ships will not fatally affect the capabilities of these reconnaissance. forces.
                  Quote: anzar
                  As for the need for close protection of night mining)) I can’t say anything - I would drown / I wouldn’t drown a big ship ...

                  If mining at their base - then with the secret police, EMNIP, and the "goddesses" coped well.
    3. WW2
      WW2 12 January 2019 15: 11
      -5
      Quote: anzar
      for "reconnaissance at eskadr" the six-thousanders are better suited, and even better - "armored six-thousanders" (Bayan).

      Range Bayan 3400 m.m.
      Range of operation of a standard (normally built) 1 XBG 5000-6000 class mb. 2 class, 6000-7000 m.
      What the hell could Bayan reconnaissance be in a squadron? Where to get coal?
      You are strange people. The obvious things are not at all obvious to you. "Because Melnikov did NOT write this."
      Who is this Melnikov at all? He, of course, has fewer stocks than Andrei of Chelyabinsk. Even much less. But enough too.
      Quote: anzar
      In that sense, Novik is neither fish nor meat,

      At least slightly learn materiel. Range Novik 3500 m.m. Practically, like Bayan. And the speed is much greater than that of the Bayan. If we compare it for intelligence purposes, then Novik is much better - he will leave everyone (in theory).
      But as a cruiser scout (I will never again write a reconnaissance cruiser, so as not to confuse poorly understood terms), the Bayan guard ship, of course, is more powerful.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        12 January 2019 16: 35
        +3
        Quote: WW2
        Range Bayan 3400 m.m.
        Range of operation of a standard (normally built) 1 XBG 5000-6000 class mb. 2 class, 6000-7000 m.
        What the hell could Bayan reconnaissance be in a squadron? Where to get coal?

        Funny comment.
        The fact is that Kolya never came to mind one simple fact - the main forces during a combat exit will spend coal MUCH more intensively than the cruiser's actions supporting them. Firstly, because almost all battles battleships fight at speeds close to the maximum, that is, with increased coal consumption, but scouts do not need to "fly" at full speed, this is for them, in general, an exception to the rule when necessary to get away from someone urgently. Secondly, because battleships in battle receive significant damage, including pipes, which is why their coal consumption increases enormously, but scouts who are not intended for a long battle may well do without such damage. Of course, if they do get them, it can be unpleasant, but this is an acceptable risk for not carrying a dead load of coal.
        In general, a scout with a range of 3 000 miles is quite capable of bringing with him to the base after a battle more coal (as a percentage) than an armadillo with a range of 5 000 miles.
        Kolya, of course, could not have come to mind. Indeed, in order for a fact to come to mind, at a minimum it is necessary that it has where to come ...
        1. WW2
          WW2 12 January 2019 18: 25
          -4
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          The fact that Kohl never

          Who is Kolya?
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          the main forces during the combat exit will spend coal MUCH more intensively than the cruiser supporting them

          Are you out of your mind?
          How can this be? On the contrary, support ships must wind much more nautical miles than the main forces. That's why they are support ships.
          Well, that's what to discuss with you. if you write such "pearls"?
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          because almost the whole battle armadillos fight at speeds

          What kind of "battles"?
          How many miles are spent on battles, and how many on "foreplay"?
          And then, who said that scouts in such battles are on the sidelines?
          They are at the flagship. As messengers and coaches. Those. are moving at his own speed.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          In general, a scout with a range of 3 000 miles is quite capable of bringing with him to the base after a battle more coal (as a percentage) than an armadillo with a range of 5 000 miles.

          In general, nifiga you do not understand in the naval business. And write so wild nonsense that to read it, do not respect yourself.
          Is it clear to you, Kolya?
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Indeed, in order for a fact to come to mind, at a minimum it is necessary that it has where to come ...

          And right there, since he was caught by the hand on ignorance of the materiel in the act, the opponent begins to be rude.
          You do not need to write on naval topics. You do not understand anything about this, and this is noticeable. Maybe not everyone, but one who understands the topic, sees it clearly.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            12 January 2019 18: 59
            0
            Quote: WW2
            Who is Kolya?

            Look in the mirror, maybe you'll find out. Although...
            Quote: WW2
            How can this be? On the contrary, support ships must wind much more nautical miles than the main forces. That's why they are support ships.

            Nonsense is phenomenal. In the general case, reconnaissance cruisers advance ahead of the main forces and search for the enemy along the line of the squadron, in particular cases options are possible, but the bottom line is that the vast majority of the time the scouts go at the same speed as the main forces (just in front / side from them).
            Quote: WW2
            How many miles are spent on battles, and how many on "foreplay"?

            We watch the battle in ZhM, in Tsushima, the battles in the Spanish-American, Jutland, finally. Practically not at all for foreplay.
            Quote: WW2
            And then, who said that scouts in such battles are on the sidelines?
            They are at the flagship. As messengers and coaches. Those. are moving at his own speed.

            And even you could figure out that at the same 14 speed of the 18 knots, the nodal armadillo will (in a specific ratio, of course) consume coal much faster than the 23 nodal cruiser. Just because the first goes at a speed of 78% of the maximum, and the second only 60%
            That is, if for a certain period of time the cruiser at this speed will use up 10% of its coal supply, then the battleship will not use 10%, but much more.
            Quote: WW2
            Is it clear to you, Kolya?

            Kolya, you again confused the mirror with the monitor :)))))))
            1. WW2
              WW2 12 January 2019 19: 00
              -2
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Look in the mirror, maybe you'll find out.

              You got me, hamloe, honestly.
              Not even tired of his rudeness. A donkey stubbornness.
              It suddenly became clear to everyone that scout cruisers did not have the technical ability to conduct reconnaissance with a squadron of linear forces.
              But this one will be stubborn to prove that black is white. He will litter with numbers and get everyone with his verbiage.
              To say what stubbornness is a sign of?
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                13 January 2019 10: 26
                +1
                Quote: WW2
                You got me, hamloe, honestly.

                So go, take a break from writing comments on a cosmic scale, and space ....
                Quote: WW2
                Already everyone suddenly realized

                Of course. Nicholas, I want a passerby, WW2 and other things to your nicknames - everyone laughing
          2. Rurikovich
            Rurikovich 12 January 2019 19: 15
            +2
            Quote: WW2
            Maybe not everyone, but one who understands the topic, sees it clearly.

            belay

            fellow
          3. Rurikovich
            Rurikovich 12 January 2019 19: 20
            +3
            Quote: WW2
            And write so wild nonsense that to read it, do not respect yourself.

            Nikolay, you are sooooo strong person ... Well, how much willpower you need to have to read what you don’t like and don’t want to read at all, but read ... And then also read in the comments what you don’t like it again, and then, through force, try to convey to the small, illiterate people the great messages of your only true and correct classification of ships given from above to yourself ...
            you are sooooo strong man yes for example, I can’t do that ... I don’t like it - I don’t read. And do not comment request
            lol hi
          4. Wildcat
            Wildcat 13 January 2019 23: 11
            +3
            Quote: WW2
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The fact that Kohl never

            Who is Kolya?
            /////
            You do not need to write on naval topics. You do not understand anything about this, and this is noticeable. Maybe not everyone, but one who understands the topic, sees it clearly.

            Topic not disclosed (plus set hi )!
            I demand an immediate and unusual qualification and classification of Novik!
            Rank II Armored Lightning is not enough! Where is the "medium-caliber armored fighter of the trade coastal voyage tirae reconnaissance at the battleship tirae" advice rehearsal AKA cruiser-scout-pioneer of coastal defense? More Hell !!!
            laughing
      2. mmaxx
        mmaxx 14 January 2019 14: 19
        0
        Interesting logic.
        But like others. Successful fleets:
        LK "North Caroline" cruising range 13500 m. M.
        LC "Iowa" - 15000
        KRT "Baltimore" - 10000 project. actually 7800
        KRL "Cleveland" - 11000 project. fact. 8600
        KRL "Brooklyn" - 10000 project, fact 7800
        EM "Fletcher" - 4800
        These ships absolutely cannot sail with each other. The battleship quietly mowing and the cruisers and destroyers roaming around cannot interact in the Pacific Ocean at all.
  5. Andy
    Andy 12 January 2019 17: 40
    0
    “that night, other Russian destroyers also went out to sea - at about 01.00, fires were seen in the sea, and S.O. Makarov authorized the departure of a detachment of four destroyers to the sea for an attack. The latter actually * discovered 4 Japanese destroyers and attacked them *, but this fight, like the fight of the "Guardian", is outside the scope of our article series. "
    Andrey, if it’s possible about this fight at least as part of a comment.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      13 January 2019 10: 27
      -1
      Andrey, as part of the commentary, it’s difficult. Maybe later, as a separate article
  6. Comrade
    Comrade 13 January 2019 03: 14
    +5
    On the mast of "Novik", this toy cruiser, boldly rushing to the rescue of a lone destroyer, the flag of the fleet commander fluttered! ..

    In the hours of calm, in the photo Makarov and Essen play a board game.
    1. Jura 27
      Jura 27 17 January 2019 09: 45
      0
      [/ quote] In the hours of calm, in the photo Makarov and Essen play a board game. [quote]

      And hto here Makarov, and hto Essen?
  7. DimerVladimer
    DimerVladimer 14 January 2019 10: 56
    0
    It was already bad that the squadron’s ships left the external raid, having failed to defend it, now the release of armadillos was possible only in “big water” and took a lot of time.


    Staying on the outer roadstead — this meant putting more valuable ships at risk of a torpedo attack — anyway, the initiative to choose the time of the attack on the outer roadstead was behind the attacker — the Japanese.
    This is a necessary measure.
    But the fact that they did not regularly trawl the external raid is possible from a lack of strength.