The myth that Stalin planned and unleashed World War II

The myth that Stalin planned and unleashed World War II

Victory parade. Soviet soldiers with the defeated standards of the Nazi troops. June 24, 1945


"Crusade" of the West against Russia. In the West, the myth that Stalin planned and prepared the Second World War was created and is actively promoted. That he unleashed a world war with the help of Hitler, then to create the axis of Berlin - Moscow - Tokyo and divide the world into spheres of influence.

The origins of evil


In fact, this is the standard method of Western propagandists and their domestic singers. Call white black and vice versa. To denigrate a great man, to hang other people's crimes on him. To turn Russian communism into a source of evil, and whitewash the crimes of the capitalist world, to expose oneself as knights without fear and reproach.

In fact, the masters of the West unleashed a world war to establish world supremacy. At the same time, there was a tense squabble in the imperialist camp for the role of hegemon. Britain framed Germany and France to gain supremacy in Europe. Hitler led his game, while agreeing to play the figures of financial capital of the United States and Britain. The United States generally actually secretly fought against everyone - with the goal of destroying the old world. Germany, Italy, Japan and the USSR. At the same time, the Americans wanted to destroy the British and French colonial empires, gain access to their resources, markets, and become an "elder brother."

However, these dirty games do not want to reveal to the western man in the street. For ordinary people, a myth was created about the "noble knights" from the USA and England, the ghoul Hitler and the "bloody tyrant" Stalin, who allegedly unleashed a world massacre that claimed the lives of tens of millions of people across the planet. Allegedly, Stalin supported the rise to power of Hitler and the Nazis, interfering with the activities of the German Communists and Social Democrats; "Forged the fascist sword in the USSR" (“Was a German sword forged in the USSR?”); He prepared the world war according to the precepts of the classics of Marxism-Leninism about the necessity of accomplishing the world revolution so that the global war could develop into a revolution. Stalin deliberately carried out accelerated militarization, although supposedly there was no threat to the USSR in Europe and the world; He drove the USSR into international isolation and deliberately rejected cooperation with democratic countries in order to enter into a conspiracy with Hitler and conclude an agreement on the division of spheres of influence in Europe. After that, Stalin along with Hitler attacked Poland, "occupied" Western Belarus and Western Ukraine, the Baltic States and Bessarabia. Stalin attacked Finland and "occupied" part of Finnish territory ("The myth of the aggression of the" criminal Stalinist regime "against the" peaceful "Finland"; "What prompted the USSR to start a war with Finland") However, in the end, Hitler “outplayed” Stalin and suddenly attacked the USSR, which was the root cause of the catastrophe of the initial period of the war.

Thus, in the West (already in a significant part of the post-Soviet space), the myth that the Second World War was unleashed by Hitler and Stalin, German Nazis and Russian Communists prevails in the minds. That England and the USA are victims of aggression, like most of the countries of Europe. That the Anglo-Saxons are knights who fought for freedom and independence of the whole world, for human rights and democracy.

How Stalin Tried to Avoid Participation in World War II


In fact, Stalin was one of the few Russian rulers who tried their best not to play other people's games, to avoid participating in other people's wars, where Russians were used as cannon fodder, and then they would be destroyed. The Soviet leader maneuvered, cautiously, tried to stay away from the world carnage caused by the crisis of capitalism. He sought to turn the war into an internal affair of the Western world. Stalin wanted to avoid participating in the clash of two imperialist camps, two coalitions of Western predators. Russia then became the world leader without war. She could offer humanity a fair order, without exploitation of man, without neo-slavery and colonial relations. To show mankind all the advantages of the socialist system, crisis-free development, society, where a person is not a consumer slave, but a creator, creator.

Stalin tried to break the order fatal for Russia (under the last Romanovs, except for Alexander the Third, who did not fit into European squabbles), when the Russians fought not for their own, but for strangers - Austrian, German, British, French or American interests. Stalin remembered the lessons well stories and he tried his best to avoid a situation where Russians became cannon fodder for Europeans. For example, when under Alexander the First, Russians fought with the French, having no fundamental contradictions with them, for the interests of the British, Austrians and Prussians. When under Nicholas the Second, the Russians were poisoned with the Germans, from cooperation with which Russia had only benefits and there were simply no unsolvable issues. And all the benefits of a fierce battle between the Russians and the Germans received the French, British and Americans.

All this, Stalin remembered well. He wanted to avoid repeating the situation of the 1914 model, the collapse of Russia and its monstrous robbery. The Red Emperor was well aware of the weaknesses of the Soviet Union. After the civilizational, state and national disaster of 1917, very little time passed. Society remained unstable, barely recovered. Old wounds were still bleeding. The war of the village and the city had hardly ended. One could again use the national question for the collapse of Russia. A new society of service, creation, and knowledge has just been born. They had just just overcome illiteracy, started a cultural revolution, built an industrial power with unprecedented efforts and pace, and solved the problem of supplying food to cities and the army. Barely created a new army of industrial type. However, it was still "raw", requiring many improvements, polishing and improvement. The new Soviet (Russian) empire outwardly looked like a formidable newest battleship, but in reality this ship required many modifications. For example, the Soviet armed forces were at the stage of modernization and rearmament, the formation of the generals and the officer corps.

The USSR-Russia needed peace, time to complete the transformation, the creation of a civilization of the future. Stalin understood this very well. He did his best to stay away from the world carnage. At first, Moscow was an active supporter of the creation of a collective security system in Europe. She made concessions. However, it soon became apparent that such a system could not be created, as Western democracies again want to repeat the scenario of the First World War. Bleed Germany and Russia, Germans with Russians and get all the fruits of victory.

Victory of the Red Emperor


Then Stalin changed his strategy. And he did a lot. Most importantly, Russia managed to avoid a war on two fronts - simultaneously with the German bloc in the West and the Japanese empire in the East. The Japanese were stunned by the new military power of the industrial USSR (Khalkhin-Gol), then by the non-aggression pact with Berlin. As a result, Tokyo decided to launch a strategic offensive first in a southerly direction, attack the United States, Britain and other Western powers, and take their possessions in the Asia-Pacific region. The Stalinist government perplexed the British and French when it proposed a full-fledged military alliance against Nazi Germany. When England and France refused, the Kremlin concluded a non-aggression pact with Berlin.

On the eve of the Great Patriotic War, Stalin strengthened our western frontiers, returned our ancestral lands to our power: Western Belarus, Western Little Russia, Bessarabia, the Baltic states, Karelia. When the Red Army led the Finnish campaign, Moscow managed to get out of a very dangerous situation. England and France, despite the fact that they were officially at war with Hitler's Reich, were preparing to enter the war on the side of Finland. They prepared attacks on the flanks of Russia: in the North - in Scandinavia and the South - in the Caucasus. For the Third Reich, this would be great luck. Hitler would have the opportunity to agree with the West on a joint “crusade” against the Russians. However, the Red Army broke into the Mannerheim Line before the “collective West” could put its plans into action.

France and England had to abandon the war with Russia. After that, Hitler decided for himself the problem of the "second front", took a historic revenge on France and crushed almost the whole of Western Europe. In this way, Stalin avoided the situation where Russia would become Hitler's first victim, and France and England could either take a cold, neutral position or also attack us. At first, imperialist predators grappled with each other.

Why Stalin did not believe in the Reich attack in the summer of 1941


Why did not Stalin believe that Hitler would attack in 1941? The red emperor had several reasonable grounds. First, England and the United States needed a war between Germany and Russia. London warned Moscow of a possible Hitler attack. However, the dates were different, time passed and it turned out that this was a mistake or malicious intent. The Anglo-Saxons wanted to provoke the Germans and Russians, to pit them among themselves. Stalin did not want to repeat the mistakes of 1914, which led to a terrible Russian catastrophe, the fall and collapse of the empire, an entire civilization project, and the deaths of many millions of people. The catastrophe of 1917 nearly ruined Russian civilization and the Russian people.

At the same time, the West needed the Russians to attack first. Then on Russia it was possible to hang all the dogs. Declare arsonists of World War II. Therefore, the concentration of German strike groups on the eastern border of the Reich seemed a gigantic disinformation operation or precautionary measures for Berlin, which was afraid of an attack by the Russians. Hence the Soviet government’s attention to possible provocations in the western direction. The Soviet armed forces showed maximum caution so as not to provoke the Germans, not to give rise to war.

Secondly, it was obvious that Hitler was a great statesman and politician, very smart and dangerous. He could not make a fatal mistake and start a war on two fronts. First, the Reich was to solve the problem of England. Therefore, the military preparations of the Reich could be attributed to the preparation of an amphibious strategic operation to seize the British Isles or occupy Sweden in order to strengthen the Reich's raw material base in the confrontation with the British. Also, Berlin could carry out a number of operations in the Mediterranean and the Middle East - to capture Gibraltar, make a throw to Egypt, capture Suez, Palestine, Iraq.

Thus, in order to start a war with Russia, Hitler had to withdraw Britain from the war or negotiate with London. And the concentration of troops on the border with the USSR was a standard precautionary measure. It was necessary to cover their rear from a possible strike by the Russians, while the main forces were connected by operations in Northern Europe or in the South. These were the army covering dangerous areas. Therefore, Stalin hesitated, the concentration of German troops in the East could be an ordinary precautionary measure of Hitler, and the military activity of the Russians on the western border could provoke a war beneficial to England and the United States.

Thirdly, objective facts indicated that the Third Reich was not ready for war with the USSR. Hitler's Reich was materially weaker than the Second Reich of the 1914 model. Germany did not have colonies, resources and strategic materials to wage war with the Russians. The German economy was not mobilized for a long war with a strong adversary. Moscow had a powerful intelligence network in Germany and Europe. The Kremlin received full data on the resources of Nazi Germany, its weapons, military programs, which were to be completed only after a few years. It seemed like a war with huge Russia? The troops do not even have winter uniforms. German technology in terms of number and quality as a whole does not exceed Russian, there are no reserves of fuel and ammunition.

As a result, all reasonable, sober calculations showed that Hitler was not yet ready for a war with Russia. It is necessary to solve the problem of the “second front” (it is obvious that the Fuhrer tacitly solved it, he was assured that while the Germans were fighting in the East, there would be no particular problems in the West); mobilize the economy, accumulate the necessary reserves; complete military programs. The problem was that Hitler was a man of a different mindset than Stalin. He was ready to go on an adventure. He started the war against all objective factors. He believed in a “lightning war”, in the weakness of Stalinist Russia, in the fact that there would be a “second front”. And he, in fact, was not there. The West began the invasion of Western Europe only when it became convinced that Hitler would not win the Russians.


Soldiers throw on the special platform at the foot of the Lenin Mausoleum the banners and standards of the defeated Nazi troops. The final part of the Victory Parade
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  1. bessmertniy 13 March 2020 06: 09 New
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    It is unfortunate that Stalin did not take into account that Hitler. fool This is his main mistake. And the nonsense of Western historians is not a new thing. It’s bad that they’re clogged with people's heads and used to incite a hostile attitude towards Russia. negative
    1. Alex_1973 13 March 2020 08: 51 New
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      I believe that Stalin knew and realized who Hitler was. Another thing is that Stalin did not have 2-3 years to completely rearm and restore order in the army. T-34, KV, BM-13, Yak-1, MiG-3, Il-2, and other new equipment was not enough, it was not mastered in the troops, the material and technical base was not created, the interaction of all parts was not organized and the arms of service among themselves.
      It was the lack of interaction, the lack of mastery of technology, the lack of material and technical support that were the main reasons for the first defeats in the Second World War. And the majority of the command staff lacked real combat experience, which led to fatal errors at the beginning of the war.
      And Stalin was perfectly aware of this. That is why he did his best to delay the German attack on the USSR. It is from here that the order "do not respond to provocations". Stalin understood the situation better than anyone. But there was one point that let him down was the lack of confidence in intelligence data. However, the intelligence data were very fragmented, so Stalin’s distrust of these data was also partially justified.
      Today it’s easy for us to argue sitting on the couch and knowing the final result, but Stalin was not at all easy, as many now believe. He, unlike us, did not know the results and did not possess absolute providence. He is still not God, but the genius of his time. A low bow to him, a low bow and eternal memory to all those who fought and died for their homeland!
      1. Diana Ilyina 13 March 2020 09: 16 New
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        Alexey hi , wonderful comment, absolutely agree. I can only add that the first failures were greatly affected by the lack of normal communication, and at all levels, which greatly reduced the capabilities of the Red Army. As well as the successful actions of German saboteurs and the almost complete absence of opposition at the initial stage of the war to these actions by our special services.
        On the German side, one can note the enviable interaction of the armed forces, tactics and strategy, honed almost to perfection. In places of breakthrough, aviation, artillery, and then tanks with infantry, always operated. Virtually nowhere did the Germans advance with one infantry, without interacting with aviation and artillery.
        As an example of unsuccessful actions, one can cite the assault on the Brest Fortress, where the Germans went from the self-confidence to the forehead and suffered heavy losses. The Germans received their first retreat order on June 22, 1941 under the walls of the Brest Fortress.
        If the defense of the fortress was organized a little more literally, the Germans would sit more under it and more incurred casualties.
        1. Nasrat 13 March 2020 10: 07 New
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          Quote: Diana Ilyina
          ... If the defense of the fortress was organized a little more literally, the Germans would sit more under it and more incurred casualties.


          Do not succumb to provocation! - That's what came from the Kremlin, the initiative of the generals, senior and junior officers was shackled. Criminal order - do not succumb to provocation! I found the army in the fields when I was studying ... Aviation at airfields, without camouflage ... Fur corps in boxes ... Although many times they reported "to the top" about the state of the German army ...
          In addition, the army was beheaded by repression, mainly on average and younger the officer’s link ... this had a very serious effect .. and until they learned how to fight, there were huge losses, prisoners and other related
          How did it happen that in World War I, without the approval of Nicolas, even against his will, they managed to bring the army into combat condition (the generals assumed such responsibility), but did not do it under Stalin (the repressions affected!)? How did it happen that in World War I managed to keep the front at the beginning of the war, and under Stalin rolled down to Moscow, Leningrad, the Caucasus? Although the article says:

          "objective facts indicated that the Third Reich was not ready for war with the USSR. Hitler's Reich was materially weaker than the Second Reich of the 1914 model. Germany did not have colonies, resources and strategic materials to wage war with the Russians. The German economy was not mobilized for a long war with a strong adversary. Moscow had a powerful intelligence network in Germany and Europe. The Kremlin received full data on the resources of Nazi Germany, its weapons, military programs, which were to be completed only after a few years. It seemed like a war with huge Russia? The troops do not even have winter uniforms. "German technology in terms of number and quality as a whole does not exceed Russian, there are no reserves of fuel and ammunition."

          Our people are really heroic ... that's why they won ...
          1. bessmertniy 13 March 2020 10: 21 New
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            Our people are wonderful, due to it all our leaders left and somehow managed to create the largest country in the world. And if they had not allowed a bunch of stupid things, then the country could have been even bigger. fellow Still mighty! soldier And everyone is richer! hi
            1. Nasrat 13 March 2020 10: 26 New
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              Quote: bessmertniy
              Our people are wonderful, due to it all our leaders left and somehow managed to create the largest country in the world. And if they had not allowed a bunch of stupid things, then the country could have been even bigger. fellow Still mighty! soldier And everyone is richer! hi


              Yes, at the expense of the people this country is leaving ...
              The fact that Stalin did not plan an attack and did not unleash the Second World War is evidenced by the fact that the army was not very ready for war by 1941, the Finnish company showed, as well as June-November 1941 ...
              1. For example 13 March 2020 10: 57 New
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                The Second World War is a continuation of the first. The goal of the collapse of Russia. The Anglo-Saxons believed that Russia fell after the turmoil of the 17th year, but Stalin managed to rebuild our country.
                Realizing this, the English-speaking creatures decided to finish us off. Again the hands of stupid, but executive Germans.
                Bummer again.
                Again, millions of dead our relatives.

                West is a fiend of hell.
                All evil is from them.
                Inhumans. The buggers.

                Burn them all in hell!
          2. Alexander Suvorov 13 March 2020 10: 21 New
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            NasRat (Evlampy Spiridonovich)
            Our people are really heroic ... that's why they won ...
            Did the troll of the ram get out on the ventilator again?
            This liberal myth about the people who won against the will of Stalin has long been foul, however, like you.
            1. Nasrat 13 March 2020 10: 32 New
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              Quote: Alexander Suvorov
              NasRat (Evlampy Spiridonovich)
              Our people are really heroic ... that's why they won ...
              Did the troll of the ram get out on the ventilator again?
              This liberal myth about the people who won against the will of Stalin has long been foul, however, like you.

              It is foolish to deny facts, at least the ones I mentioned ... why embellish and make Christ out of Stalin? You know a believer and I’m not going to hesitate your faith in Stalin ... but historically I set out correctly ... even Diana did not consciously confirm (I have highlighted her quotation above), a historical fact ... She, as I understand it, also how are you - an adherent of the holy and not lasting Stalin ..

              1. Alexander Suvorov 13 March 2020 10: 37 New
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                What are the facts? All that you have hacked over to the facts has nothing to do.
                And yet, yes, it’s foolish to have a fifth point instead of a head. What garbage can you grow up with?
                1. Nasrat 13 March 2020 10: 44 New
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                  Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                  What are the facts? All that you have hacked over to the facts has nothing to do.
                  And yet, yes, it’s foolish to have a fifth point instead of a head. What garbage can you grow up with?

                  What facts do you need:
                  As the commander of the 135th Rifle Division of the 5th KOVO Army recalled, Major General Fedor Smekhotvorov: "When the division on the march came under machine-gun fire from the air on the morning of June 22, the following was received from the army headquarters: "Don't give in to provocation, don't shoot at planes". The order to bring the units into combat readiness and to fulfill the mobilization plan was issued only in the morning of June 23. "Could the Germans dream of a greater gift ?!

                  No facts are needed, just look at the photos of our prisoners - this is still summer 41 ... what facts do you still need?


                  1. For example 13 March 2020 11: 05 New
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                    Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                    This liberal myth about the people who won against the will of Stalin has long been foul, however, like you.

                    What do you dislike about the Russian people?
                    What the fuck is a myth?
                    We defeated the western rot. Millions of our lives have paid for our lives.
                    My grandfathers died. They gave their lives for the sake of our homeland. For the sake of my life.
                    Tens of millions of our people have the same fate.

                    Filter your bazaar through the brain.

                    Nehru push the people and Stalin.

                    Let everyone treat Stalin as he wants.

                    But it is people who are our country. Rulers come and go. Someone is better, someone is just a piece of shit, although a member of the CPSU (for example, humpbacked).
                    But we are the country. We are people who live the traditions and victories of our ancestors.

                    Wake up.
                    1. Alexander Suvorov 13 March 2020 11: 19 New
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                      What do you dislike about the Russian people?
                      And who said that I do not like the Russian people? In addition, the Soviet people fought in the Second World War, and not just Russian!
                      What the fuck is a myth?
                      The myth that the people won on their own, contrary to the will of the leadership of the USSR.
                      Like, he organized himself, armed himself, built factories himself, and fought himself, contrary to the commanders and personally to Stalin. Anyone who still believes in this complete nonsense fool .
                      We defeated the western rot. Millions of our lives have paid for our lives.
                      Nobody argues with that.
                      My grandfathers died.
                      I'm so sorry. Eternal memory to your grandfathers.
                      Filter your bazaar through the brain.
                      Rude please "dear"? Filter the bazaar itself.
                      Nehru push the people and Stalin.
                      You are not addressing, it’s you who need to give a shit.
                      Wake up.
                      Wake up yourself and learn to read at the same time.
                      1. Nasrat 13 March 2020 12: 20 New
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                        Alexander, it’s strange that you take offense at rudeness:

                        Quote: Alexander Suvorov

                        Filter your bazaar through the brain.
                        Rude please "respected"? Filter the bazaar itself.
                        .

                        A couple of comments above - themselves rude:

                        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                        ... And yet yes, it is foolish to have a fifth point instead of a head. What garbage can you grow up with?


                        wassat wassat wassat You are an interesting type .. it would be interesting to talk with you and identify your psychological type, partret - I am collecting a collection ... if you agree - write in a personal ...
                      2. For example 13 March 2020 12: 33 New
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                        The leadership of the USSR led the country to collapse.

                        The people defeated the enemy because there was a war for survival.

                        If Russia doesn’t exist in the world, then why the hell is such a world needed, one person said recently.

                        Our ancestors defended their land, their family. But Stalin is only a stupid substitution of Christ. No more.
                        Nas.rat was on Stalin and Lenin. Shpana who first helped to ruin the country.
                        When Lenin ended the majority of the population and did not know who it was.
                        It was then that they started filming movies and children at school to set their brains.

                        Apparently Stalin recovered. I realized that his life is only in Russia. There will be no Russia will not be him. The first to hang.
                        That's all Stalin.
                        Urkagan with a chase. I did everything through punishment. Because urka himself by nature.

                        And you live without Christ, and you are trying to replace God with some kind of idol.

                        Sculpt Christ from Stalin, sculpt from Lenin.
                        Only all this nonsense.
                        Nothing came out of the snout.


                        The soldiers in the trenches PRAYED.

                        And "for Stalin," the propaganda paid paid wrote slogans. The propagandists are the same as the Germans.

                        Earlier, the Russian people fought with Banner. With Christ on the banner.

                        The Communists did not come up with anything new. Only stole. But instead of Christ, the face of Stalin was dragged.

                        Only Stalin ended, and Russia, thank God, is alive.

                        And you are only capable of minus in your anger.

                        But God will give it over the years.
                      3. Alexander Suvorov 13 March 2020 14: 04 New
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                        For example
                        The leadership of the USSR led the country to collapse.
                        Where in your sore head?
                        The people defeated the enemy because there was a war for survival.
                        Yeah, he won and won? Nobody led them, these people? The people themselves, without instructions from the leadership, exported industry to the East? Himself made decisions specifically doll technology at what particular moment to release? He himself determined how much oil, coal, electricity is needed nationwide?
                        Continue to continue to carry your utopian delirium, your level of degradation is becoming more evident.
                        If Russia doesn’t exist in the world, then why the hell is such a world needed, one person said recently.
                        What does the word of your god have to do with WWII?
                        Our ancestors defended their land, their family. But Stalin is only a stupid substitution of Christ. No more.
                        So Putin is a stupid substitution, however, you persist in this ... laughing
                        Nas.rat was on Stalin and Lenin.
                        Just like you and your opinion about Stalin and Lenin.
                        Shpana who first helped to ruin the country.
                        Are you talking about yourself?
                        When Lenin ended the majority of the population and did not know who it was.
                        In your sick imagination, everything is exactly so, but the whole USSR knew WHO was such a Lenin.
                        Urkagan with a chase. I did everything through punishment. Because urka himself by nature.
                        Judging by the jargon, urka here is you!
                        The soldiers in the trenches PRAYED.
                        Some may have prayed, my grandfather did not pray, there is no need to generalize and speak for everyone, you were definitely not there!
                        Earlier, the Russian people fought with Banner. With Christ on the banner.
                        When is this earlier? Under Rurik, they fought without any banners with the falling falcon badge and fought well.
                        The Communists did not come up with anything new. Only stole. But instead of Christ, the face of Stalin was dragged.
                        How vile you are in your hatred. And write about the dead grandfathers. But they died with the name of Stalin on the lips and under the red flag, and not with banners.
                        And you are only capable of minus in your anger.
                        Read your comment and compare with mine. It’s just you who vent the evil, and so openly, that it becomes scary for your state of mind. Drink valerian, otherwise the blow is enough ... laughing
                      4. chenia 13 March 2020 14: 06 New
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                        Quote: For example
                        The soldiers in the trenches PRAYED.


                        And how they prayed in the WWI, but the people could not cope only with the secondary German troops. Well, no matter how (probably prayed a little). And this is when the bulk of the German troops was connected on the western front.
                        And in the Second World War (praying secretly, obviously because the commissars did not allow it), they suddenly organized themselves (and God commies heard a miracle) and stolen not only Germany, but all of Europe.

                        Quote: For example
                        The people defeated the enemy because there was a war for survival.


                        A VKP (b) and personally comrade Stalin is the organizer and inspirer of all victories.

                        And deny it can. Well, a very stupid person.
                      5. 16329 14 March 2020 11: 50 New
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                        Well, of course, you wrote absolutely correctly, the Communists turned to Russian Orthodoxy and Russian Patriotism,
                        For some reason, our army was defeated in buttonholes with Masonic triangles and cubes, and won in gold uniforms with the orders of Suvorov and Alexander Nevsky,
                        And Stalin restored the Patriarchate in 1943, then there was a turning point in the war
              2. chenia 13 March 2020 11: 14 New
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                Quote: Nasr
                "Do not give in to provocation, do not shoot at planes." The order to bring the units into combat readiness and to fulfill the mobilization plan was issued only in the morning of June 23. "Could the Germans dream of a greater gift ?!


                And what? And what a surprise was two weeks later. When did the troops of the second operational echelon enter the battle? And a month later, when the second strategic echelon has already rolled up?
                Our generals, at the suggestion of Khrushchev, decided to blame their flaws on Stalin.
                The troops, as a result of constant, sometimes unreasonable reforms, were not combat ready. And at the platoon level. company and battalion.
                And the fault was not Stalin, who strained industry and overwhelmed the army with weapons, but military leaders who were not trained by the troops.

                And the result is 40%, and according to other sources, more than 50% of prisoners (the entire Great Patriotic War) for six months of the war. It sticks out so that it is impossible not to notice.
                Already in 1942 (also not very successful) there were half as many prisoners (and this is for the whole year).
                1. Nasrat 13 March 2020 11: 56 New
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                  Quote: chenia

                  And the result is 40%, and according to other sources, more than 50% of prisoners (the entire Great Patriotic War) for six months of the war. It sticks out so that it is impossible not to notice.
                  Already in 1942 (also not very successful) there were half as many prisoners (and this is for the whole year).


                  That's exactly sticking out and you are trying to shift the blame of the country's leadership on the military !!!
                  Would you blame the military in the 90s (perestroika and Yeltsin) if a similar situation occurred in 1941 ???
                  1. chenia 13 March 2020 13: 52 New
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                    Quote: Nasr
                    shift the blame of the country's leadership on the military !!!


                    I'm not trying, I know. I belong (though in the past) to this caste. and I know. what am I saying. But you didn’t understand anything.
                    Construction issues, methods of reorganization of the armed forces, OShS and BP are the prerogative of the General Staff. The defense industry is developed and partially mobilized, weapons of all kinds with new models and abundant controls (for the first period are quite) .- This is Stalin at the request of the People’s Commissariat.

                    And why did the reorganization take place through a multiple increase in formations (blurring of personnel, but a bunch of posts appeared, many went uphill right away) sometimes with an unpolished OSh. This disrupted the power supply at all levels. because in the formations there were such problems that it was not before the training of L / C. And how does Stalin feel about it?

                    An example is the reorganization of the Germans.
                    Doubling tank divisions. after France, there were two brigades in the TD (two regiments each), tank and rifle. Decided to increase in two and the number of TD. So they didn’t increase TD in the old state, but halved the TBR and left them in the tank regiment in the tank regiment, and put the other in the infantry divisions. They understood that preparing the most technical complex part (TP) by simply doubling it would not work, and then all TDs would be ready for a certain period of time. ALL.
                    By the way, they scored their future defeat (TD with one TP is NOT a TANK division).
                  2. Nasrat 13 March 2020 14: 07 New
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                    What side is Stalin? say ....

                    Two groups can be distinguished in the Military Council at NPOs: the first - before the repression of military personnel (1934), the second - after repression (1938). The composition of the hot water tank of the Red Army, despite on multiple shifts, can be regarded as a single, Stalinist, since its chairmen were no longer independent political figures, completely dependent on I.V. Stalin.
                    A huge role in the activities of the higher military collegial bodies was played by their chairmen.
                    The appointment to the post of People’s Commissar for Military and Naval Affairs (later the People’s Commissar of Defense) took place, first of all, for political reasons, and sometimes accompanied by a fierce political struggleas happened during the period of the displacement of L.D. Trotsky and approval for the post of People's Commissar M.V. Frunze. Appointment K.E. Voroshilov was also accompanied by backstage maneuvers. The last pre-war People's Commissar of Defense and chairman of the GVS RKKA S.K. Tymoshenko was appointed by a personal decision of I.V. Stalin.
                    It was necessary to engage in the army, but the leadership has a covert fight .. accompanied by repression .. what can the military be blamed for?
                  3. chenia 13 March 2020 14: 47 New
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                    Quote: Nasr
                    People's Commissar of Defense and Chairman of the GVS RKKA S.K. Tymoshenko was appointed by a personal decision of I.V. Stalin


                    So what? By the way, the People’s Commissariat is engaged in several other affairs. You didn’t catch that we had a failure in the BP (from us, from the platoon to the battalion, no one knew what to do - and this category was less affected by the repression). And this is the diocese of the General Staff. OSh too. And how did it happen that such a formation as MK began to replicate with an unchecked OSh (moreover, they could not conduct the MK exercises in full in a year, though they planned it in the fall of 1941)? Retrieving TBR from SC, returning the latter to the level of almost PMV.
                    Who convinced Stalin of the need for 30 MK. Meretskov, by the way, rested, and then Zhukov was surprised at his memoirs — fuck 30 MK with a thousand tanks, when 6 TAs with the same quantity, and sometimes much less, were enough in the war.
                    But how many generals appear (comcor-gen. L-nt, 3 divisional-gen. Majors, colonels, etc.).
                    And you don’t see. Something selfish interest.
                  4. 16329 14 March 2020 12: 02 New
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                    It was just that the country was split inside, there was a very powerful opposition, the Germans were waiting, Pavlov specifically opened the front to the Germans, putting the district under attack, withdrawing artillery from the troops and concentrating aviation at airfields
                    Kirponos also behaved very strangely, directing the mechanized corps to strange marches towards each other through Lviv, etc.
                    The Germans planned to enter the Arkhangelsk-Astrakhan line and make peace with the new Russian government
                    Therefore, Stalin had to take over the military power and the supreme command. Such a war could not be entrusted to the military.
                    Unfortunately, at the same time, civilian power was transferred to them by the Kaganovich group, which then played a negative role after the war.
        2. Sugar Honeyovich 14 March 2020 06: 31 New
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          Colonel General P.P. Poluboyarov (... formerly before the war the chief of the armored forces of PribOVO): “On June 16 at 23 o’clock the command of the 12th mechanized corps received a directive on putting the troops on alert ... On June 18, the corps commander raised the formations and the military alert units and ordered them to be withdrawn to the planned areas .. On June 19 and 20, this was done ... On June 16, by order of the district headquarters, the 3rd mechanized corps was also put on alert ... which concentrated at the same time in the specified area. "

          Major General P.I. Abramidze (former commander of the 72nd Mountain Infantry Division of the 26th Army of the KOVO): “On June 20, 1941 I received the following encryption of the General Staff:“ All units and units of your unit located on the border itself, take back several kilometers, that is, to the line of prepared positions. Do not respond to any provocations from the German units until they violate the state border. All parts of the division must be put on alert. Report execution by 24 o’clock on June 21, 1941. "Just at the indicated time, I reported by telegraph about the execution of the order."
      2. Diana Ilyina 13 March 2020 10: 45 New
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        Alexander hi love do not get dirty about this stinking substance, you still can’t prove anything. Why throw beads in front of animals ?! Take care of yourself, they’re not worth it.
        Have a good day! love
        1. Nasrat 13 March 2020 10: 51 New
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          It is a pity that all your arguments come down to inappropriate insults ... if you have something to say - tell me directly, if not, put a minus and pass by. I, like last time, do not hold you angry
        2. Alexander Suvorov 13 March 2020 10: 52 New
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          Dianochka love thank! And have a good friday drinks So be it, I will not touch it, you wrote everything correctly, do not touch it and it does not stink.
          It’s just because of people like him and others like him that ideas appear in the West to rewrite history, since we ourselves do not respect our history. This is actually a little wheelchair in a different guise. However, why be surprised, we have a large part of the government, including the guarantor, with his repentance for Katyn and so on.
          1. Nasrat 13 March 2020 11: 04 New
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            Quote: Alexander Suvorov
            Dianochka love thank! And have a good friday drinks So be it, I will not touch it, you wrote everything correctly, do not touch it and it does not stink.
            It’s just because of people like him and others like him that ideas appear in the West to rewrite history, since we ourselves do not respect our history. This is actually a little wheelchair in a different guise. However, why be surprised, we have a large part of the government, including the guarantor, with his repentance for Katyn and so on.

            What does Kolya have to do with Urengoy? What does the government have to do with it? What does the West have to do with historical correspondence? There is a fait accompli - you cannot refute it, even indirectly agree (the same Diana) ... well, how else can you explain 3,5 million captured Red Army soldiers for half a year of the war? Is that not the fault of the country's leadership?
  • Diana Ilyina 13 March 2020 10: 26 New
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    I will not even try to debunk your nonsense. Write more, as Peter the Great said: “I will direct the boyars in the Duma to speak in unwritten so that everyone’s nonsense can be seen” ... laughing lol tongue
  • Alexey RA 13 March 2020 12: 51 New
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    Quote: Nasr
    Criminal order - do not succumb to provocation! found the army in the fields while studying ... Aviation at airfields, without disguise ... Fur corps in boxes ...

    What does the order “not to succumb to provocations” have to do with the Air Force’s inability to organize camouflage for two years? Disguise orders were issued regularly - and a bolt was also put on them regularly.
    The tanks of the mechanized corps in the boxes and on the platforms were also not for fear of "succumbing to provocations." And because of the order, according to which the equipment of the first category was allowed to be used only at the final exercises with the consumption of motor resources no more, EMNIP, 20 hours. Moreover, this order was issued only because the B-2 diesel engine for 1941 gave out only 100 operating hours at the stand, and even less in the field. And only one driving instruction required about 50 hours. As for the spare diesel engines, the industry issued 1 unit for 10 tanks. With old tanks, everything was even worse - the "native" factories turned off the production of spare parts, and the tractor did not have time to start (and even avoided signing contracts for the salary).
    Quote: Nasr
    In addition, the army was beheaded by repression, mainly in the middle and junior officers ...

    The total number of commanders "irrevocably repressed" for political reasons in the late 30s was about 20. Lack of command staff before the war - 000 people.
    If the number of divisions is tripled in a year, there is no need for repression, the lack of commanders will be hellish. Especially if the base for reserve personnel before 1937 was 20-25 personnel divisions.
    Quote: Nasr
    Germany did not have colonies, resources and strategic materials to wage war with the Russians. The German economy was not mobilized for a long war with a strong adversary.

    The problem is that the Reich of the USSR was not considered a serious adversary. For the Germans, we imagined another Poland - just very big.

    By the way, if you replace the USSR in the quote you quoted with France, then the initial premises will turn out to be just as true. But here is the result ... smile
    1. Nasrat 13 March 2020 13: 52 New
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      I agree with you. And what I said about "do not succumb to provocations" is a specific answer, to a specific comment (see above about the defenders of the Brest Fortress) ...
      The catastrophe of the first months of the war - lies entirely with the country's leadership - it is a fact!
      1. Alexey RA 13 March 2020 15: 42 New
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        Quote: Nasr
        The catastrophe of the first months of the war - lies entirely with the country's leadership - it is a fact!

        Well, yes, yes ... no other way, the country's leadership forbade the command personnel to study at least the charters and staffs of their units (and to the younger command staff, also the military equipment). And the country's leadership forbade personnel to clean their personal weapons.
        In parts of 97 SD rifles manufactured in 1940. , which were on hand for no more than 4 months, up to 29% are reduced to a state of rust in the barrel, machine guns "DP" manufactured in 1939 to 14% also have a deterioration of the barrel channels.

        135 sd - The technical condition of the weapon is unsatisfactory, with the exception of 791 sp. Small arms in the division from 13 to 40% require military repairs. Especially poor technical condition of weapons in 497 joint ventures, 184 hap, 168 obs. The care and saving of small arms is unsatisfactory in all parts of the division. The increase in the susceptibility of barrel channels by rifles from 10% to 77% ... For inspection of the commission, rifles and machine guns with a touch of rust were presented: 497 cn - 8 rifles and 3 revolvers, 791 cn - 6 rifles, 1 DP and 11 Nagan revolvers , 276 ap - 23 revolvers, 119 atb - 28 rifles and 2 revolvers "Nagan".
        Unfortunately, there are still such commanders as Jr. Lt. Comrade. ____ (I release the surname available in the dock) (791 cn), which has only 6 rifles in the division, and upon inspection all the rifles turned out to be rusty, his personal Nagan revolver was also rusty, in the drum of which there were three spent cartridges. The revolver, according to the statement of the lieutenant of Comrade ___, did not clean after firing for 3 months.
        © Ulanov
        It was not otherwise that Stalin, Beria, and Tymoshenko walked in parts, and when they saw an ordinary, cleaning weapon, they shot him right away.
        And undoubtedly, the country's leadership, and by no means an engineer of the Air Force, thwarted the same reconstruction of airfields in the border strip in 1940.
        Responsibility for the 1941 disaster rests with everyone - from the commander-in-chief to that very soldier who being sent to reconnaissance crawled to the enemy dugout and, not knowing what to do next, crawled back (a real case of the summer of 1941 at the SZN, which reached right up to the order in the direction).
        1. ser56 19 March 2020 12: 10 New
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          Quote: Alexey RA
          The responsibility for the 1941 disaster rests with everyone - from the commander-in-chief to that very soldier,

          funny - but who did not train the fighters? sergeants ... and who are sergeants? etc. the army is the vertical of power! Why in RIA non-commissioned companies were trained so that they easily commanded platoons?
          Quote: Alexey RA
          disrupted the same reconstruction of airfields in the border strip in 1940

          But has it allocated resources for work? bully
          1. Alexey RA 19 March 2020 12: 26 New
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            Quote: ser56
            funny - but who did not train the fighters? sergeants ... and who are sergeants? etc.

            Damned imperial regime. © smile
            The whole issue with training rests on the education system. Which began to be engaged only in the early 30s. And she was supposed to give the first results to the year that way by 1942.
            What can a commander who came to school in the early 30s with 3 classes behind teach him? And such cadets at that time were up to 90%. But this is the future senior command staff of the late 30s.
            By the end of the 30s, the level of education cadets managed to raise to "half - from 7 classes and above". But below everything was very bad.
            First, the majority of the personnel of tank divisions — the “technical” type of troops — do not even have incomplete secondary education, falling into the “3-6 classes” group, and the total number of holders of higher and secondary education is very noticeably lower than the total number of command personnel. That is, among the command staff, there are quite enough those who, at best, have grades 7–9, or even 3–6. Secondly, in the “old” (formation of the summer of 1940) 8th Panzer Division, the number of illiterate and illiterate is quite comparable with the number of people who have complete secondary education. Is it necessary to say that neither the first nor the second factors of speed or the success of combat training contribute to anything?
            © Ulanov / Shein
            And here is a summary of the personnel of the tank forces of the Kiev Special Military District by social status and general education as of January 1, 1941:

            the table describes the situation on January 1, 1941, that is, before the formation of the "spring" wave of the mechanized corps. The table clearly shows that: among the commanding and commanding staff, incomplete secondary education predominates, and among the younger commanding and commanding and rank-and-file staff - primary; further, the number of recruits in the 1940 draft was almost double the number of ordinary soldiers in the second year of service; taking into account the need to retain trained old-timers on the staff, it should be recognized that the reserve of ordinary old-timers for their promotion to the positions of junior command personnel was quite small. And this, in turn, foreshadowed the promotion to the post of junior command personnel of the Red Army of the first year of service, whose knowledge, experience and qualifications did not differ much from the knowledge, experience and qualifications of those whom they were to command and whom they were to teach the subtleties and wisdom of military affairs.

            more than half of the platoon commanders in the tank troops graduated from “other educational institutions”, in the case under consideration, “junior lieutenant courses and equal to them” (1591 out of 1642 people), that is, they did not receive a full course of special military education; however, it was precisely these people who had to directly organize the process of combat training in units, to direct this process and to control the depth and quality of training.
            1. ser56 19 March 2020 12: 45 New
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              Quote: Alexey RA
              The whole issue with training rests on the education system. Which began to be engaged only in the early 30s

              and who is to blame? Why did the king think about this, but the IVS did not? It is clear - the peasants cooperated - it wasn’t before that ... and at the head of the Red Army he kept loyal clubheads who suppressed the peasants ...
              Quote: Alexey RA
              What can a commander who came to school in the early 30s with 3 classes behind teach him? And such cadets at that time were up to 90%. But this is the future senior command staff of the late 30s

              1) in RI it was worse with education - but they found officers ... request But the Red Army needed not just commanders, but RED commanders!
              2) Who did not create a system of continuing education for middle and senior commanders? What prevented them from studying in vespers or in absentia? They would drink less ....
              Quote: Alexey RA
              By the end of the 30s, the level of education of cadets was raised

              20 years were not enough for the Bolsheviks for secondary education of officers ... request with the king it was in the 19th century ...
          2. Alexey RA 19 March 2020 12: 35 New
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            Quote: ser56
            But has it allocated resources for work?

            The most amazing thing is that yes! But the Air Force even managed to distinguish themselves by extremely “competently” approaching the distribution of these resources:
            5 the Directorate of the Main Directorate of the Air Force of the Red Army did not fully satisfy the application of the aerodrome departments of the districts. So, the airfield department of the Air Force of the Odessa Military District on March 26.03.40, 0377, No. 42, submitted an application for 80 wagon of round timber and 1940 wagon of lumber. In April 5, the 30th Administration reported that the forest was shipped, but was not received by the district. For the month of May, 15 cars were planned, only 19.06.40 was received. On 5/5/1940, a telegram was received from the 40th Directorate of Air Force Air Force Joint-Stock Company with a proposal to give details for cement shipment, which was done by the airfield department. However, no cement has been reported. 12 management of accurate data for planning building materials in the districts did not have, as a result of which their distribution was carried out by eye. So, for the month of October 5 for the Air Force PribOVO at st. Riga had planned 90 wagons of cement, while according to the application only 95 wagons were required. With the urgent need for oil bitumen for the Odessa Military District XNUMX, the department planned for October only XNUMX tons, while for the ZAPOVO, which did not require at all, it planned XNUMX tons.

            The construction of special facilities, especially gas storages, went extremely slowly in 1940 due to the weak supply of gas tanks by the industry. This was compounded by the fact that the 5th Directorate did not control the shipment of gas tanks in districts and irresponsibly distributed the shipment of gas tanks from factories in the districts, which in some cases led to unnecessary costs and delayed construction. So, it was planned to ship 14 tanks to the Svessky factory in OdVO, while the Tsnitmash factory directly in Odessa, according to the layout, shipped 89 tanks in ZakVO. In turn, Georgia has a factory for the production of gas tanks.

            In 1939, two hangars were brought to the Chernyshevsky Far East Fields and have not yet been assembled. In 1939, designs were brought to the Moninsky airfield, but so far the hangar has not been assembled. A similar situation in ORVO and Zapovo. Thus, dozens of structures are made and are in a state of mismanagement, while aircraft due to the lack of hangars in ZakVO and ArchVO rot.

            And it still started at the planning stage, which simply was not carried out:
            ... in July, 1940, by order of Major Makeev, the expansion of the Chisinau airdrome was begun without a project and estimates, although the inexpediency of its expansion was obvious due to the large amount of excavation. Makeev did not take any action on a number of signals from the places about the expulsion of tenants and budgeting until September.
            Only on 10.IX.40 was a survey made and estimates were made, on the basis of which in October 1940, further work to expand the airfield was stopped as unprofitable. As a result, about 500 rubles were spent aimlessly through Makeev’s fault.

            During the construction of the Pavlovskoye airfield, when leveling the relief, it was necessary to remove the soil up to 2 meters thick, while nearby was an area with a smaller amount of earthwork.
            Chertanovo airdrome is limited in size to 900x900 and it is not possible to expand [it], since there is a collective farm on one side and a swamp on the other. By the decision of the commission, the construction of the Chertanovo airfield was canceled, but the former. Major General Eremenko, commander of the Air Force Air Defense Ministry, decided to build.
            The Vatulinsky airdrome, measuring 900x900 meters, is 5-6 km from the railway. There are no access roads to the airfield.
            The airfield of the village of Inyukno, 800x800 in size, cannot be expanded further.

            Land plots for the construction of operational aerodromes are alienated according to the old standards - 144 hectares, i.e. 1200x1200, while the commissioning of new high-speed aviation requires an increase in the airfield to 1500x1500 plus an approach strip of 150 meters.

            © Reference 3 of the Department of Non-Commercial Organizations of the USSR on the state of airfield construction April 16, 1941
            1. ser56 19 March 2020 12: 49 New
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              Quote: Alexey RA
              about the Air Force and then managed to distinguish themselves, extremely “competently” approaching the issue of the distribution of these resources:

              Thanks for the eloquent facts! but this is not an excuse for the mess created by the leadership in the Red Army!
              it is the fault of the leadership of the USSR and their crime against the people! For which they did not answer, the same ITT is considered an icon ... request
  • mat-vey 13 March 2020 14: 51 New
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    Quote: Nasr
    In addition, the army was beheaded by repression, mainly in the middle and junior ranks of officers ... this had a very serious effect

    How can you "decapitate" something that wasn’t? Does the sir generally know about the multiple increase in the size of the army? Or should sergeants and lieutenants multiply by division, which would be enough for the newly created units?
    1. ser56 19 March 2020 12: 50 New
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      Quote: mat-vey
      Or were sergeants and lieutenants supposed to multiply by division, which would be enough for the newly created units?

      and the Germans were wrong? hi Or maybe it wasn’t necessary to destroy officers in the Crimea in 1920 - would it be enough for 30 divisions of the command staff?
      1. mat-vey 19 March 2020 14: 33 New
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        Quote: ser56
        and the Germans were wrong?

        Well, if for you four years is not a deadline ....
        Quote: ser56
        Or maybe it wasn’t necessary to destroy officers in the Crimea in 1920 - would it be enough for 30 divisions of the command staff?

        Yes, yes, and the Civil War is a fiction .. Maybe it wasn’t necessary for your Blagorodorites to fight with their own men? And yes - there were a lot of white tank crews, pilots and other specialists in the “war of engines”?
        1. ser56 19 March 2020 15: 32 New
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          Quote: mat-vey
          Well, if for you four years is not a deadline ....

          look at the dynamics of the development of the Wehrmacht and the Red Army ... request
          Quote: mat-vey
          Maybe you didn’t have to fight with your own peasants

          Let me remind you that Frunze promised life to surrender request
          Quote: mat-vey
          And yes - there were many among the white tankers, pilots and other specialists in the "war of engines"?

          I recall that it was the whites who used tanks on the Kakhovstvo bridgehead ... hi
          1. mat-vey 19 March 2020 15: 48 New
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            Quote: ser56
            I recall that it was the whites who used tanks on the Kakhovstvo bridgehead ...

            Well, just a rehearsal of the "blitzkrieg".
            Quote: ser56
            Let me remind you that Frunze promised life to surrender

            And gave up a lot?
            Quote: ser56
            look at the dynamics of the development of the Wehrmacht and the Red Army ...

            Look at the initial conditions. And yes, four years seems to be more than one and a half? Or how?
            1. ser56 19 March 2020 18: 32 New
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              Quote: mat-vey
              Well, just a rehearsal of the "blitzkrieg".

              no, but the frames were already, unlike the red ones ...
              Quote: mat-vey
              And gave up a lot?

              many, like those destroyed by the Countrywoman - tens of thousands ... and this is after the word of Frunze ....
              Quote: mat-vey
              Look at the initial conditions. And yes, four years seems to be more than one and a half? Or how?

              do you understand yourself bully
              1. mat-vey 19 March 2020 18: 46 New
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                Quote: ser56
                no, but the frames were already, unlike the red ones ...

                You yourself are not funny? Although if you are serious, then it is no longer funny.
                Quote: ser56
                do you understand yourself

                But I don’t understand with you - how can one of the most advanced countries, albeit those that have lost the war, be compared with a country from which almost from scratch it was necessary to create production and science, at least somehow raise the educational level of the population?
              2. ser56 20 March 2020 11: 46 New
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                Quote: mat-vey
                You yourself are not funny? Although if you are serious, then it is no longer funny.

                I’m absolutely serious, but you, unfortunately, don’t understand the commonplace things ... I’m chewing - Guderian gained experience driving plywood tanks in exercises, but the whites had real combat experience, including offensive on vocational training at the Kakhovsky bridgehead, the red - the experience is the vocational training ....
                Quote: mat-vey
                about a country which practically from scratch it was necessary to create production and science, at least somehow raise the educational level of the population?

                1) you have read the Short Course ... request RI was a fairly developed country, with a fairly educated people - so before the WWII there were 1 students in RI ... The fact that the Bolsheviks organized a GV, shot and drove out a mass of educated people (100 million emigrants) is their fault ..
                2) Experience has shown that the illiterate Bolshevik leadership was not able to create an educated officer corps in 20 years of peace ... request
              3. mat-vey 20 March 2020 13: 09 New
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                Quote: ser56
                Have you read Short Course ... request

                And you seem to be too fond of the French bun.
              4. ser56 20 March 2020 13: 24 New
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                Quote: mat-vey
                And you seem to be too fond of the French bun.

                1) And this is all the argument? bully
                2) I draw your attention - I gave you a figure - 100 students in the Republic of Ingushetia - I can give a source, if you do not believe, you have purely qualitative assessments, and unproven request
                3) Let me remind you that in the Republic of Ingushetia they built linear ships, aircraft jacks — which the USSR was unable to build ... request That the grain yields of 1913 in the USSR reached only by 1960 ... request
                RI scientists received Nobel prizes, discovered radio, cracking, measuring blood pressure in people, etc. repeat The state was a medium-developed state - on the 4th-5th place in the world, and not backward .. hi
              5. mat-vey 20 March 2020 13: 50 New
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                Quote: ser56
                I draw your attention - I brought you the figure - 100 students in RI

                In the USSR during the war, there were many times more students ...
              6. mat-vey 20 March 2020 14: 14 New
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                But scientists of the USSR have not received the Nobel Prizes?
                Bearings and internal combustion engines, electro-vacuum products were made in the USSR ...
                What scientists of the USSR discovered you probably can find yourself if you show at least a little desire ..
              7. ser56 20 March 2020 14: 37 New
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                Quote: mat-vey
                What scientists of the USSR discovered you probably can find yourself if you show at least a little desire ..

                if not a secret - I wrote that the USSR was a backward state? request
              8. mat-vey 20 March 2020 14: 44 New
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                If it’s not a secret, how did the “illiterate Bolshevik leadership” achieve that the USSR is not a backward state? Or will fairy tales about a giant inheritance go again?
              9. ser56 21 March 2020 16: 20 New
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                Quote: mat-vey
                If it `s not a secret -

                plagiarized ... bully
                Quote: mat-vey
                has achieved that the USSR is not a backward state?

                The USSR was a very diverse state - there was a terrible backwardness in some sectors: agriculture, the consumer goods industry, catering, entertainment, the building materials industry, etc., while in some sectors there were breakthrough technologies - in nuclear industries, aviation, astronautics, etc.
                Quote: mat-vey
                Or will fairy tales about the gigantic inheritance go again?

                if it's not a secret, what are you talking about? If the legacy of RI, then yes! The USSR got a huge territory from it, a well-developed infrastructure - railway, ports, etc., a fairly developed industry - e
                the proletariat worked there ... hi For example, for the production of T-26, the Tsar’s workshop, which has been standing since the time of the Great Patriotic War, was re-opened ... request
              10. mat-vey 21 March 2020 18: 42 New
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                Quote: ser56
                well-developed infrastructure - railway, ports, etc., fairly developed industry

                Are you serious? No, seriously - are you serious? Are you actually from Earth?
              11. ser56 23 March 2020 13: 01 New
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                Quote: mat-vey
                Are you serious

                absolutely! just remember who built the ports in St. Petersburg, Sevastopol, Odessa, Riga, Vladivostok, etc.
                Quote: mat-vey
                Are you actually from Earth?

                Aren't you too lazy to demonstrate your ignorance? request
              12. mat-vey 23 March 2020 14: 25 New
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                I am too lazy to communicate with an alien ... Aliens live in their alien world and do not even try to understand how the Earth lives and lived ...
                Probably an alien mind is not able to understand this ..
              13. ser56 23 March 2020 14: 31 New
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                Quote: mat-vey
                Probably an alien mind is not able to understand this ..

                you probably think this is smart ... crying in my opinion, just a departure from the essence, which is eloquent ... request because essentially can’t say anything ... good luck ... hi
              14. mat-vey 23 March 2020 14: 33 New
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                No, I don’t consider "this" smart .. It's just that it’s not clear to you whether you are a scoundrel or a fool - decide for yourself ...
              15. ser56 23 March 2020 14: 34 New
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                Quote: mat-vey
                or a fool -

                there is no problem with you - you are the one ... bully
              16. mat-vey 23 March 2020 14: 36 New
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                Yes, eat with a bun .... with French ... Or what kind of aliens do they prefer ...
              17. ser56 23 March 2020 14: 39 New
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                Quote: mat-vey
                Yes, eat with a bun .... with French

                during the IVS, the French were renamed to urban ... bully
                tired of throwing beads in front of pigs is stupid ... hi
              18. mat-vey 23 March 2020 14: 48 New
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                Yes, you would live in your alien world, and those around you would not be very annoying ... And there will be no dissonance with reality.
              19. ser56 23 March 2020 14: 51 New
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                Quote: mat-vey
                .And with reality there will be no dissonance.

                but this is your problem, the Stalinists ... bully
              20. mat-vey 23 March 2020 14: 54 New
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                And you're funny - why do you always think of the "Stalinists"? Maybe it's you?
              21. ser56 23 March 2020 15: 23 New
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                Quote: mat-vey
                why do you always think "Stalinists"

                and here it is everywhere - you said the key word - French roll ... bully
                Quote: mat-vey
                Maybe it's you?

                decided to pretend to be a therapist? laughing
              22. mat-vey 23 March 2020 15: 25 New
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                And you don’t need to go to the grandmother ... The alien is rushing.
              23. ser56 24 March 2020 11: 31 New
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                Quote: mat-vey
                Alien and rushing.

                Do you have a fad? request
              24. mat-vey 24 March 2020 14: 28 New
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                "My misfortune is that I am terribly truthful. If I see that the girl is cute, then I tell her so bluntly."
              25. ser56 24 March 2020 16: 15 New
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                Quote: mat-vey
                My misfortune is

                that you didn’t learn to think, but think in blocks of others ... request however it is your right - good luck! felt flood ... request
              26. mat-vey 24 March 2020 16: 25 New
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                Well, excuse me, well, I didn’t learn to think in alien thinking ...
                PySy - do you have a “fixed” idea according to the “Stalinists”? Or is this a standard alien labeling?
  • knn54 13 March 2020 12: 46 New
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    The USSR was ready for war only in the middle / end of the summer of 1942.
    And now I dare to make an assumption, since Stalin bears equal responsibility with Hitler, then you can try to get a "bribe" from the Russian Federation, as from the successor of the USSR. Money in Israel (and there they also sing in unison with the West), Poland, etc. Finish. Germany, Switzerland "milked." They are looking for someone else to fuck.
  • Doctor 13 March 2020 12: 46 New
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    Another thing is that Stalin did not have 2-3 years to completely rearm and restore order in the army. T-34, KV, BM-13, Yak-1, MiG-3, Il-2, and other new equipment was not enough, it was not mastered in the troops, the material and technical base was not created, the interaction of all parts was not organized and the arms of service among themselves.

    This mantra, Stalin expressed in the article "Truth" on July 3, 1941, since then everyone has been repeating it.

    What did we gain by concluding a non-aggression pact with Germany? We ensured peace for our country for a year and a half and the possibility of preparing our forces to fight back if Nazi Germany risked attacking our country contrary to the pact.

    That would not help. The enemy also does not stand still. In 1942, our T-34 and Yak-1 would meet with the Tigers and Me-109 F.
    And with the restoration of "order" in the army ... I'm afraid no one would have lived before a war.
  • Olgovich 13 March 2020 13: 58 New
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    Quote: Alex_1973
    And Stalin was perfectly aware of this. That is why he tried his best draw back German attack on the USSR. It is from here that the order "don't respond to provocations ".
    World wars do not start because of provocations: they do not bring such a war not a single day: the aggressor begins it only when he is fully prepared and gathers strength, which he did on June 22.
    And it is impossible to “delay” it, respectively, by “non-provocation”.

    And for this, he did not even come up with a reason for June 22.
    Author: Stalin did not want to repeat the mistakes of 1914


    And he did not repeat 1914: in an effort to avoid the country's participation in the World War of the two blocs, he fell into a situation where she already alone took a terrible blow to almost all of Europe, when the possible allies of France, England, etc. were already crushed.
    The result is an unprecedented military catastrophe in 1941-42.

    In 1914, the main blow remained aimed at France throughout the war, while the Anglo-French, and not the Russians, suffered major losses, and it was they became cannon fodder PMV.

    And all just because the Russian leadership then right calculated and SAVED France in 1914 - as events confirmed-for myself.

    Failure to combat readiness of the army of the country on the border of which stands fully mobilized, already 2 years at war. the most powerful army Europe is the strongest provocation to attack ...

    And this:
    The Soviet leader maneuvered to the last, cautious, tried to stay away from the world massacre caused by the crisis of capitalism. He sought to turn the war into an internal affair of the Western world. Stalin wanted to avoid participating in the clash of two imperialist camps, two coalitions of Western predators. Russia then became the world leader without war.
    and it remained good wishes .....

    Stalin, of course, World War IIe started and tried to stop Hitler’s aggression, all Western MODERN notions are to justify their indulgence to the aggressor and to whitewash themselves ....
    1. apro 13 March 2020 14: 05 New
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      Quote: Olgovich
      And all just because the Russian leadership then correctly calculated

      Olgovich. Where did the war end? And where is the USSR? And who did it right? Practice is the criterion of truth ...
      1. Olgovich 13 March 2020 14: 27 New
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        Quote: apro
        Olgovich. Where did the war end?

        On the territory of the occupier including
        Quote: apro
        And where is the USSR?

        And the USSR there.
        And?
        Quote: apro
        And who correctly did? practice the criterion of truth ...

        at the beginning of the war, Russia.

        During the war she just had to kill potential fighters "for turning the war with the occupier into a civil war," as Stalin did in 1941

        As for the "criterion": Russia's loss to the World War-9% of global losses (without China), the loss of the USSR -52% of the world without China.
        1. apro 13 March 2020 14: 43 New
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          Quote: Olgovich
          Quote: apro
          Olgovich. Where did the war end?

          On the territory of the occupier including

          And not in the trash of history by accident? ...
          Quote: Olgovich
          As for the "criterion": Russia's losses in the World War-9% of world losses (without China), Soviet losses -52% of world

          Once again, where did empire Russia end up? And what was the USSR after the Second World War? Not the second superpower on the planet. And this is the price of victory and gain in the civilization race at this stage.
          1. Olgovich 13 March 2020 15: 29 New
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            Quote: apro
            And not in the trash of history by accident? ...

            Russia -.... in the trash, what's wrong with you? belay Look out the window.
            In the trash that disappeared self-without wars, revolutions, with complete indifference to you and yours
            .
            Quote: apro
            Once again, where did empire Russia end up? And what was the USSR after the Second World War? Not the second superpower on the planet. And this is the price of victory and gain in the civilization race at this stage.

            Russia came out victorious in WWI (see Versailles).
            Lost the so-called snk
            Quote: apro
            And what was the USSR after the Second World War? Not the second superpower on the planet. And this is the price of victory and gain in the civilization race at this stage.

            1. The price of Victory (with a capital letter, yes) - see. higher.

            2. And they won not for the mythical incomprehensible ... "civilizational" "gain", but saved the country and the world from OCCUPIERS.
            And not in order to forgive these ANIMALS and put them on their NECK (good "win", yes!).

            By the way, where is this short-term “gain”, for which our money and blood were spent, for which they were silent about their crimes of unleashing a war (Poland), their atrocities (Romania, Hungary)?

            In enemies, as always?

            That’s how your “gain” escaped as soon as possible, and only people who did not know History could not foresee this.
            1. apro 13 March 2020 16: 11 New
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              Quote: Olgovich
              Russia -.... in the trash, what's wrong with you? Look out the window.

              Olgovich. We have different windows .... and what I see does not make me happy. And there are no prospects for this Russia.
              If Russia won the WWII then what is the USSR? And where did it come from? An alternative story in another department ...
              He defeated the USSR by which he proved his viability. And carried out his tasks. So he understood them. For that period of time. And quite successfully.
              1. Olgovich 14 March 2020 07: 29 New
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                Quote: apro
                Olgovich. We have different windows .... and what I see does not make me happy. And the prospects for this россии none.
                If Russia

                1. RUSSIA - s BIG beechyou spelled, once again I remind you.

                If you will continue ABUSE my countrydo not bother to answer me negative

                2. Your rulers have led the Russian people to extinction, you do not remember this already?
                WHERE to take the youth of Russia, ditched and unborn because of yours?
                Quote: apro
                If Russia won in the war then what is the USSR? and where did he come from?

                Show the DOCUMENT on .. "losing" to Russia. Is he not there?
                So what are you broadcasting about? Alternative story on another site.

                But your thought is that USSR is a victory over Russia-interesting: indeed, as a result of the USSR, Russia lost 5 million km2 territoryit’s possible
                Quote: apro
                He defeated the USSR by which he proved his viability. And carried out his tasks. So he understood them. For that period of time. And quite successfully.

                The country won, as ALWAYS won for 1000 years and without advice: people are fighting for the Fatherland.

                But for sovstroy in 1991 n nobody got up, including and you,

                Success checked History and time- and here is a complete collapse.
                This is just a fact.
                1. apro 14 March 2020 14: 25 New
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                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Show the DOCUMENT on .. "losing" to Russia. Is he not there?

                  an interesting approach .... there is no document .... and there is no country. but it doesn’t matter to you. and you don’t have to prove anything ... it's funny ...
                  1. Olgovich 14 March 2020 16: 11 New
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                    Quote: apro
                    an interesting approach .... there is no document .... and there is no country. but it doesn’t matter to you. and you don’t have to prove anything ..funny...

                    1. There is no document, AND RUSSIA IS: see in the window, she even yours - I managed to survive, albeit with wild, unheard of in history, losses of territories and people.

                    2. And the funny thing is that self-disappeared FOREVER....
    2. ser56 19 March 2020 12: 12 New
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      Quote: Olgovich
      YOUR indulgence to the aggressor and whitewash yourself ....

      Exactly! The IVS came up with the role of a great strategist and ended up in a puddle! And with him the whole country, only in the ocean - blood!
  • NF68 13 March 2020 19: 30 New
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    Quote: Alex_1973
    I believe that Stalin knew and realized who Hitler was.


    After May 10, 1940, all interested parties understood this. But it was too late.

    Quote: Alex_1973
    Another thing is that Stalin did not have 2-3 years to completely rearm and restore order in the army.


    So the Wehrmacht in 2-3 years would also become much more powerful.
    1. ser56 19 March 2020 12: 16 New
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      Quote: NF68
      But it was too late.

      Not at all ... if they had announced the mobilization and hit with mobile units, they could very well have saved France from surrender! The Germans had a purely nominal cover on the border with the USSR, without aviation request
      1. NF68 28 March 2020 18: 12 New
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        Quote: ser56
        Quote: NF68
        But it was too late.

        Not at all ... if they had announced the mobilization and hit with mobile units, they could very well have saved France from surrender! The Germans had a purely nominal cover on the border with the USSR, without aviation request


        If yes, if only. As a result, France simply brilliantly lost the war, and the BI already at the beginning of WWII was so weakened that without the generous help from the United States in the second half of 1941 it would not have been able to defend itself.
        1. ser56 30 March 2020 18: 10 New
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          Quote: NF68
          In the end, France just brilliantly lost the war,

          and the Russian people suffered from this .... request
  • iouris 14 March 2020 00: 43 New
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    Quote: Alex_1973
    Stalin did not have enough 2-3 years for complete rearmament and restoring order in the army

    And after 2-3 years, the Red Army would have obsolete weapons and poorly trained personnel. The USSR gained access to the advanced technologies of the USA and Great Britain thanks to Hitler's military successes. Stalin knew well that the Anglo-Saxon strategy was to weaken Germany and the USSR as much as possible. Hitler understood that Great Britain did not have land forces, and the United States could not launch an offensive in Europe before 1944. Some intellectuals were inclined to believe that the United States would very quickly crush both Hitler and Stalin, bring peace, freedom, democracy and cud.
    It was strategically understandable and in the materials of the congresses of the CPSU (b) of the 1920s it was indicated that the First World War ended in a respite. The duration of the world was estimated at about 20 years. This does not mean that the USSR was planning a war. The largest and most advanced economy in the world was the United States (about 40% before WWII, 60% after WWII). In comparison with the USA and Great Britain, Germany (until 1940) and the USSR were economic dwarfs. Thus, only the ruling circles of the United States could unleash a world war.
  • Shteffan 18 March 2020 01: 25 New
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    The whole comment is Bullshit. One of the slogans and vulgarity. Where are the facts and arguments? It remains to write down the glory of the CPSU! The command staff was not tortured? What kind of nonsense? And the Winter War? And Khalkhin-Gol? There are a lot of facts that prove the opposite. A bunch! And no one is in a hurry to write books to refute. And here is one of them: if Stalin was not preparing to attack, why all the fortified areas were disarmed and all weapons were dismantled, and the garrisons were disbanded, along the old border. new SDs were not built for the new border.?
  • To be or not to be 13 March 2020 11: 00 New
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    1. Just not enough. As always, time. Delayed until the last time the attack on the USSR
    At party congresses in his reports he spoke of the inevitability of war and clearly said that the war would be against the Soviet Union.
    2. "Stalin was preparing to attack"
    Bullshit ..
    What an attack, when long before the start of an attack by fascist Europe:
    = the entire infrastructure was built beyond the Urals ..
    = and new defensive lines along the border
  • kalibr 19 March 2020 08: 53 New
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    Quote: bessmertniy
    And the nonsense of Western historians is not a new thing.

    Victor! After all, neither you nor Samsonov have read the works of Western historians. Is not it? So how do you know? And you know from ... journalists who also did not read, but heard and read the speeches of politicians ... But politicians are politicians.
  • Strashila 13 March 2020 06: 11 New
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    "After that, Stalin, together with Hitler, attacked Poland," occupied "Western Belarus and Western Ukraine, the Baltic states and Bessarabia. Stalin attacked Finland and" occupied "part of Finnish territory," a very interesting interpretation. Actually, how can you “occupy” your own territories lost during the Civil War assigned to it following the First World War. For this reason, the progressive and democratic West itself was wiping; presenting the USSR was not anything from a legal point of view.
    In the West, for some reason they modestly forget that all world transnational companies worked for the Nazi regime throughout Europe throughout the war, pumping money on both sides of the fronts.
    1. ser56 19 March 2020 12: 18 New
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      Quote: Strashila
      Stalin attacked Finland and "occupied" part of Finnish territory, "a very interesting interpretation

      it was Lenin in December 1917 that gave independence to Finland and the border, so the interpretation is correct ... request
      and our Finland was bombed after June 22 - before the declaration of war by it ... request
  • rotmistr60 13 March 2020 06: 12 New
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    In the West, a myth has been created and is actively promoted ...
    I think that for a long time it is necessary to react harshly not only to the myths themselves distorting the true story, but also to the countries that distribute them. The fact that they began to officially publish archival documents is good, but why, for example, not impose sanctions against all kinds of "memory institutions", specific individuals loudly from the stands duplicating lies and slander. Why not start talking openly about the countries-allies of fascist Germany and their contribution to the 2nd MV? Why not expose the politicians of the countries (at that time the "allies" of the anti-Hitler coalition) that first promoted Hitler's rise to power, incited him to attack the USSR, and today they are casting out equating Stalin with Hitler? Yes, many more why. When they try to crush you from all sides, it’s worth showing your teeth.
    1. Doctor 13 March 2020 12: 56 New
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      Why not start talking openly about the countries-allies of fascist Germany and their contribution to the 2nd MV?

      Because the 2nd MV began on September 1, 1939. The West will immediately call us the allies of Germany. Until June 22, 1941.
  • 7,62h54 13 March 2020 06: 12 New
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    While at the official level in the Russian Federation they will hush up the merits of Lenin and Stalin, the attacks and blackening will continue.
    1. bessmertniy 13 March 2020 06: 19 New
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      You must be careful about your story. Any criticism of the past is not constructive, because it does not change the past. Author's assessments of history are often subjective. History should be in date, facts, figures, but not in the cooling of the past and those who made history. And in general, you can’t talk badly about the dead - this is a bad omen.
    2. Van 16 13 March 2020 06: 24 New
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      Quite right, unfortunately we also have this, for example, very transparent hints of Madame from the Foreign Ministry that Stalin is twice as bad as Hitler ..
    3. Svarog 13 March 2020 07: 29 New
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      Quote: 7,62x54
      While at the official level in the Russian Federation will be hush up the merits of Lenin and Stalin,

      If they were silent .. the guarantor openly denigrates the history of the USSR .. what is it worth "except for galoshes did not produce anything" ..
      1. Doctor 13 March 2020 12: 59 New
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        If they were silent .. the guarantor openly denigrates the history of the USSR .. what is it worth "except for galoshes did not produce anything" ..

        Not to protect the guarantor ... However, he did not say that.

    4. Jurkovs 13 March 2020 08: 16 New
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      And your mistakes were not?
      1. Varyag_0711 13 March 2020 09: 48 New
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        Jurkovs (Yurkov Sergey)
        And your mistakes were not?
        The one who does nothing is not mistaken. Everyone has always had mistakes, another matter is who and how tried to correct them. The USSR and its leadership concluded from their mistakes, but the leadership of Germany did not. And their biggest mistake is an attack on the USSR, which no one tried to fix. Hitler had more errors, and what of that? Until the very end of the war, he continued to make one mistake after another with the stubbornness of a maniac.
  • Uncle lee 13 March 2020 06: 18 New
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    The USSR fought with all of Europe and won!
    And now Europe does not want to recognize our Victory!
    1. novel66 13 March 2020 07: 27 New
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      oh Volod, the liberation of Europe is now occupation
      1. Uncle lee 13 March 2020 07: 30 New
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        Roma hi I already wrote the words of Zhukov: "We have released them, but they will not forgive us for this!"
        1. novel66 13 March 2020 07: 30 New
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          I do not like Zhukov .. well, here he is right one hundred percent hi
          1. Uncle lee 13 March 2020 07: 33 New
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            The point is not in Zhukov, but in the attitude of the "released" to the liberators.
            But it was necessary to finish off the reptile in her den!
            1. novel66 13 March 2020 07: 36 New
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              you know, and many still don’t understand this
              1. Uncle lee 13 March 2020 07: 38 New
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                Yeah! Bavarian beer and German sausages are the ultimate dream!
    2. AU Ivanov. 13 March 2020 09: 36 New
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      Not everyone can recognize themselves as a losing party. Therefore, they are trying to admit the opposite.
  • riwas 13 March 2020 06: 28 New
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    Poland was the first to sign a non-aggression pact with Germany. The first annexed the lands of Czechoslovakia to itself. So she, and not Russia, according to the logic of the West, should be responsible for unleashing WWII together with Germany.
    1. kalibr 19 March 2020 12: 45 New
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      Well, in 32 we signed a non-aggression pact with Poland until 1945!
  • Pavel73 13 March 2020 06: 32 New
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    That's right. It is only necessary to add that Hitler declared the goal of a future war, the conquest of Russia, back in 1926, in the published book "Mein Kampf". And in 1933 came to power. From that moment on, any state in the world that signed a treaty or pact with it, voluntarily or unwittingly, directly or indirectly, becomes an ally of the Nazis against Russia.
    1. Alexey G 13 March 2020 09: 44 New
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      Once upon a time I had to flip through this dark book on occasion! So there, the Führer saw France as his first goal and the desire to get even with her! I did not find a single chapter or paragraph about the attack on Soviet Russia in the book of Glavfashik! There are, of course, general phrases about the enemies of which he calls the Jews Bolsheviks, but equally he speaks about liberal Jews there too!
      In both cases, the Jews were to blame, who ruined the lives of people of the West and East! But regarding the military attack on Russia, I did not find anything! Maybe you read another publication, more complete?
      1. Pavel73 13 March 2020 10: 47 New
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        Or you are abbreviated. From where the superfluous was removed by Hitler himself. To disguise his plans, which he blurted out ahead of time. Specifically - yes, please! Chapter 14, Oriental Orientation or Oriental Politics. In it, Hitler directly pointed out the strategic goal of the German Nazis - the conquest of living space in the east, by which he means "primarily only Russia and its subordinate states." And then he explains in detail why Russia should be the victim of a future war. France was only a tactical goal. Provide yourself with a reliable rear and click on the nose of the French for the Versailles shame.
      2. Pavel73 13 March 2020 12: 34 New
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        Russians, along with Jews, should have become the same victims of the future Holocaust. The only difference is that the Nazis were going to exterminate the Jews completely, and us - as necessary.
        1. Alexey G 13 March 2020 17: 44 New
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          No, I probably had a book for neo-Nazis in Russia, where it’s wrong for fascists to read about hatred of Russians ... Thanks for the information
        2. Alexey G 13 March 2020 18: 55 New
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          Pash fluently read this chapter now! Found her in the Internet. Well the chapter is written very vaguely!
          It has a lot of reasoning about why it is not necessary to conclude an alliance with Russia.
          Indeed: “Our state will first of all strive to establish a healthy, natural, living proportion between the number of our population and its growth rate, on the one hand, and the quantity and quality of our territories, on the other. Only in this way can our foreign policy properly ensure the fate of our race united in our state.
          We can consider a healthy proportion only such a ratio between the two values ​​indicated, which fully and completely ensures the subsistence of the people with the products of our own land. Any other state of affairs, if it lasts even centuries or millennia, is abnormal and unhealthy. "
          “Having given Russia into the hands of Bolshevism, fate deprived the Russian people of the intelligentsia on which its state existence still rested and which alone served as the key to the certain strength of the state. It was not the state talents of the Slavs that gave strength and fortress to the Russian state. Russia owed all this to the German elements is an excellent example of the enormous state role that the German elementhens are able to play, acting within a lower race. For centuries, Russia lived at the expense of the German core in its upper strata of the population. Now this core has been completely destroyed to the end. Jews took the place of the Germans "But just as the Russians cannot, by their own forces, throw off the yoke of the Jews, so only the Jews are not able to keep this huge state under their control for a long time."
          "Our task, our mission should be, first of all, to convince our people: our future goals are not to repeat any effective campaign of Alexander, but to open up the possibilities of diligent work on new lands that the German sword will conquer us "
          "Russia, having lost its supreme German stratum, has thereby ceased to have any significance as a possible ally of the German nation in the liberation struggle. From a purely military point of view, the war of Germany - Russia against Western Europe (or rather, in this case, against the rest of the world) would be a real disaster for us. "
          The mere fact of the conclusion of an alliance between Germany and Russia would mean the inevitability of a future war, the outcome of which is predetermined in advance. Such a war could only mean the end of Germany.
          . "Russian Bolshevism is only a new, XNUMXth century attempt by Jews to achieve world domination."
          we need an eastern policy aimed at conquering new lands for German of the people. For this we need strength, for this we need first of all to destroy the desire of France for hegemony in Europe, for France is the mortal enemy of our people, it strangles us and deprives us of all strength. That is why there is no sacrifice that we would not have to make in order to weaken France. Any power that, like us, considers the hegemony of France on the continent intolerable for itself, is thus our natural ally. Any way to an alliance with such a power is acceptable to us. Any self-restraint cannot seem excessive to us, if only it ultimately leads to the defeat of our worst enemy and hater.

          Here are the main points of what is written in the chapter, but as you can see, the main enemy is France! Russia is a donor that should give the territory. But for this you need to kill France, and this is very difficult! For France, Britain, which helps her in the fight against the Germans ...
          1. Pavel73 13 March 2020 19: 12 New
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            And we must not read fluently, but carefully. And then you will find there that I quoted almost verbatim.
            1. Alexey G 13 March 2020 19: 31 New
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              And if France cannot be defeated, then Pasha won’t get to Russia! And if the French had not snapped a workaround, then farewell drang tries!
          2. Alexey G 14 March 2020 00: 03 New
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            France is not a tactical goal, but a strategic one! It was France that most offended the Germans in the First World War, defeating Germany, and Russia lost that war to Germany and made peace with the Germans Pasha! Hitler does not consider Russia as his worst enemy and even tries to convince those Germans who read his book that they should not be friends with Russia, since probably many Germans wanted friendship with Russians and sympathized with the Communists. Hitler does not want a Bolshevik revolution in Germany, therefore Russia is his enemy, but not his main enemy. First hated France!
            Hitler was very afraid to attack France! Many times he called to Rundstedt and asked him if he was confident in his plan! It is now, over time, after the quick victory of the Germans over France, it seems that a tactical task was solved there! Remember the First World War, where the Germans did not plan a war with the Russians at all! Then the victory over France was almost their only goal! The war with Russia was not planned by them!
            according to German military plans, France was considered the main adversary and the main blow was to be inflicted on it (see Schlieffen Plan)
            1. Pavel73 14 March 2020 07: 06 New
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              Have you found the place where Hitler talks about living space for the Germans in the east, by which he "means primarily only Russia"? Have you found the place where they deliberately "stop moving to the west and south of Europe, and turn east"? This is their strategic, main goal. To punish France is nothing more than the immediate, passing, but not the main task. From the fact that it is the closest, it does not follow that it is the main one. Moreover, France willingly participated in a new campaign to the east. To get even for Napoleon. With the same, of course, the result as Napoleon.
              1. Alexey G 14 March 2020 09: 59 New
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                Pasha, you think from the perspective of modernity, that is, from the perspective of a person who knows what happened and how it was. So you know that a company in France was fast and successful, and a company in Russia was long and hard, so do you indicate that one tactic and another strategy? In fact, capturing such a strong and large European state as France is a pure strategy!
                In addition, even Hitler himself never believed that the battle with France would be so quick and easy. He himself fought in World War I and remembered how the battle with France ended, so he was very afraid of the repetition of past events. It was France that humiliated Germany more than other states, and it was precisely her that Hitler called his main enemy. Read the conclusion to chapter 14. I highlighted it at the end. Understand the generals are always preparing for a new war, based on the experience of the old, although a new war is not like the old. But they have no other experience! The Germans were very afraid of being stuck in a positional war and losing in the long run. They were very risky at that time, at least they thought so! The war with France could be the last war of the Germans! And plans for the conquest of living space, could remain forever only plans. None of the politicians and military of that time expected that the German victory over France would be so quick! It was then that the Führer distributed his ranks to his generals, believed in his Wehrmacht for real, overestimated his capabilities!
                In this chapter 14 he considers the Russians as a weak state! Colossus on feet of clay! The German element disappeared there, and he considered the Jewish element weak! Hitler was not afraid of Russia, he was afraid of France and Britain! In this he was radically mistaken! Going east was not an easy walk ...
                Stalin read Mein Kampf and knew that the main enemy of the Germans was France, but he did not think that the Germans would defeat France so quickly! Stalin’s intelligence clearly reported that Germany was not ready for a war with Russia, and Hitler wasn’t preparing for it! He was preparing for war in Europe! His tanks had a narrow caterpillar, his soldiers did not have warm clothes! The weapon did not have winter lubrication! And so on! The soldiers and tanks themselves were not enough! Hitler did not even know that the Russians have heavy tanks! He did not plan an attack on Russia; he dreamed about it somewhere far away, but he was really preparing for a war in France
                1. Pavel73 15 March 2020 10: 53 New
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                  All that you wrote comes from the British national Rezun. And all this is not true. It was precisely because Hitler was sure that the USSR was a colossus with feet of clay, and he did not prepare to fight in the winter. He was sure that one heavy blow in the summer would be enough, and everything would crumble with us, since the people would not fight for the Bolsheviks. And the conquest of Russia for him was the main goal, which he mistakenly considered easy.
                  1. Alexey G 15 March 2020 14: 19 New
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                    Pash, why did you remember Rezun? Yes, he wrote a lot about the unpreparedness of the Germans for a war with Russia! So what? Isn’t that so?




                    Or did Rezun take these pictures in 1941?
                    In chapter 14, which was discussed above, there is not a word about the war with Russia! Not a word that Russia is the enemy of Germany! Not a word that Russia needs to be destroyed! Only general phrases about the need to expand living space at the expense of the eastern territories! That's all. HERE ABOUT WAR WITH FRANCE EVERYWHERE IS WRITTEN TO THERE! Find me the opposite? I carefully studied everything in this chapter and there is nothing about the attack on Russia! Of course there are hints, but not a single direct phrase about it! And eastward expansion can be understood as you like! Where is the beginning and end of such an expansion? Maybe this is just the capture of Poland, maybe Czechoslovakia, or maybe the Chinese should be afraid? Read the Fuhrer’s book and put it on your pants! EAST MOVEMENT IS AN IMAGE, THE CONCEPT OF EIGHT AND EIGHT IS UNCERTAIN! Yes, the Führer writes about hatred of the Bolsheviks, but that did not stop him from cooperating with Stalin on military issues, to train Goering in Voronezh!
                    In February 1940, a new treaty between the USSR and Germany was signed in Moscow. The agreement stipulated that the USSR would supply 1 000 000 tons of feed grain and legumes, 900 000 tons of oil, 100 000 tons of cotton, 500 000 tons of phosphates, 100 000 tons of chromium ores, 500 000 tons of iron ore, 300 000 tons of pig iron to Germany , 2 kg of platinum, 400 tons of copper, 11 tons of nickel, 000 tons of zinc, 3000 tons of molybdenum, 950 tons of tungsten, 500 tons of cobalt. These and other materials were transported through Soviet and Polish territories, and this allowed Nazi Germany to circumvent the British naval blockade.

                    Sell ​​in 1937 the Russian cruiser Luttsov! Sign the non-aggression act ...
                    he did not prepare to fight in the winter

                    Did he prepare in the fall? Do not tell the birds !! The entire German army was preparing for war with Poland, France, Britain, where there are good roads! You just need to get to Moscow and Russia does not end in Moscow! An attack on Russia is a German dream for which it was necessary to prepare, but they did not prepare for it, since it was necessary to fight not with dirt and frost, but with a French soldier in warm France. It’s impossible not to see it!
                    "The caterpillar width of the German Panzer III and Panzer IV tanks is 36 cm. The specific gravity of these tanks is 0,93 kg / sq. Cm. Actually, these tanks were created to rush along the European autobahns - there they showed good results. And the T-34, which was designed according to our conditions, had a track width of as much as 55 cm, due to which its specific gravity (and, consequently, ground pressure) was only 0,62 kg / cm34 - less than that of German tanks, by a third! It’s not surprising that while the "panzer" on their narrow tracks crawled in the muddy mud, the T safely rode this mud. "
                    In addition, how do you explain the construction of 4 battleships under Hitler for operations in the Atlantic?
                    Bismarck - commissioned in 1940 (sunk in 1941);
                    “Tirpitz” - commissioned in 1941 (sunk in 1944).

                    Type Scharnhorst:

                    Gneisenau - commissioned in 1938 (flooded in 1945);
                    Scharnhorst - commissioned in 1939 (sunk in 1943).
                    I am silent about the construction of two aircraft carriers under the Fuhrer
                    “Count Zeppelin” - laid in 1936, did not enter the system (flooded in 1947);
                    Aircraft carrier "B" - laid down in 1938, did not enter service.
                    This is probably to overcome the swamps in the Moscow region ??? But this is a huge cost and expense!
                    Seriously, Pasha, the obvious facts really indicate that Barbarossa is a very crude plan, worked out hastily and counting on luck. Strategic operations are not prepared like that! They are developed in detail, they take into account all the details! Read the Gelb plan for an attack on France through Belgium! For this, the Germans prepared carefully! As for the Russians, the Germans came out with only failures and underestimation. Even the blitzkrieg itself, as a way of conducting quick operations, could work only within small territories! To conquer Russia, a very large army is needed, not like the Germans and not with 3.500 thousand tanks! Even their plan provided only for a partial seizure of territories west of the Volga! To defeat such a large country, strategic aviation is needed, but the Germans did not have it! She was not even created! Here the Americans had it, but the Germans did not! Why Pash? But because the Germans planned to capture the small European states! But the war with Russia is an impromptu and there is nothing in the book My struggle about it!
                    1. Pavel73 15 March 2020 18: 31 New
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                      “We National Socialists consciously put an end to the entire foreign policy of the pre-war period. We want to return to the point at which our old development was interrupted 600 years ago. We want to suspend the eternal German aspiration to the west and south of Europe, and we definitely point out finger towards the territories located in the east. We are finally breaking with the colonial and trade policies of the pre-war era and consciously move on to the policy of conquering new lands in Europe. When we talk about conquering new lands in Europe, we can of course only mean Russia and those border states that are subordinate to it. "

                      You and it is not clear?
                      1. Alexey G 15 March 2020 23: 19 New
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                        Yes, I saw it Pash, I saw! Read!
                        But! The conquest of new lands in Europe at the expense of Russia and the outlying states may mean the rejection of part of the territories! For example, the seizure of Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic states! In these words there is no desire to destroy Russia completely or to enslave the entire population! As a result of the First World War, the Germans also seized part of our territory from us.
                        In addition, this chapter speaks three times about the war with France!
                        1. [quote] We all now understand that we still have a very large and difficult struggle with France. But this struggle would be completely aimless if it exhausted all the aspirations of our foreign policy. This struggle with France can and will only make sense to the extent that it will provide us with the rear in the struggle for the expansion of our territories in Europe. [/ Quote]
                        2. "First of all, it is important that the rapprochement of Germany with England and Italy in no way leads to the danger of war. The only power that has to be considered as a possible opponent of such an alliance, France, would not be able to declare war. it would give Germany the opportunity to calmly take up all the training that is needed in the framework of such a coalition, so that in due timekeep accounts with France. For the most important thing in such an alliance for us is that Germany cannot then be subjected to a surprise attack and that, on the contrary, the alliance of the adversaries is breaking up, that is, the Entente is being destroyed, because of which we have undergone infinitely many misfortunes. The conclusion of such an alliance would mean that mortal enemy of our people - France - he falls into an isolated position. "
                        3. [quote] For this we need strength, for this we need first of all to destroy the desire of France for hegemony in Europe, because France is the mortal enemy of our people, it strangles us and deprives us of all strength. That is why there is no sacrifice that we would not have to make in order to weaken France. Any power that, like us, considers the hegemony of France on the continent intolerable for itself, is thus our natural ally. Any way to an alliance with such a power is acceptable to us. Any self-restraint cannot seem excessive to us if
                        only it will ultimately lead to the defeat of our worst enemy and hater. [/ quote]
                        So for one conversation about the conquest of land in Russia, there are three talks about the war with France! To dream of lands in Russia, you first need to defeat France, but that's not all!
                        There is one very important fact that for some reason you do not pay any attention to in the text of chapter 14 of Mine Kampf!
                        [Quote]Already in the previous chapter, I proved that a union with England and Italy would be really useful and opening up great prospects for us. For the most important thing in such an alliance for us is that Germany cannot then be subjected to a surprise attack and that, on the contrary, the alliance of the adversaries is breaking up, that is, the Entente is being destroyed, because of which we have undergone infinitely many misfortunes. The conclusion of such an alliance would mean that the mortal enemy of our people - France - itself falls into an isolated position.quote]
                        Thus, you need not only to defeat France, but also enlist an alliance with England! And only then begin the expansion to the East! However, such an alliance has not been achieved! And Stalin knew that England would not agree to such an alliance and would not let destroy France! It is very clear that England itself always wanted to dominate the continent by baiting the Germans and the French and preventing any of them from becoming strong! Only such as Hitler could hope for an alliance between Germany and England! Stalin understood that the plan of the non-artist, corporal Hitler would not work! And Hitler doubted his initial plans, it is not for nothing that he writes so much about why you do not need to be friends with Russia and why you need to be friends with England! He argues with Bismarck, who advised the opposite. But his doubts continue in the text:
                        “However, just before the start of the war, we still had a second road: we could rely on Russia against England.” Here we are talking about the First World War! Thus, Hitler hesitated between the damned German question, which still hangs over Germany: are the Germans the west or the east too? Hence the desire to create a strong ocean fleet! Why is he? Hitler understood that his dream of an alliance with the Anglo-Saxons did not work! He is not perceived in the West! And without solving the problems with England, it’s stupid to go on a campaign in Russia! This is a war on two fronts! Especially for such a trip, as I said, Hitler was and was not ready!
                        And finally, thirdly, what the politician wrote for his popularization, for getting British investment in elections and so on, cannot be seriously considered as something that will happen! Well, after all, Trump promised peace with Russia! That he gets along with Putin and so on. And where is all this? The promises of politicians need not always be believed! Therefore, reading this nonsense and intelligence reports, you understand that there should not be a war!
                      2. Pavel73 16 March 2020 04: 59 New
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                        You know, I have one friend on another forum. He read a lot. He has a huge electronic library. But this well-read has the opposite effect: he absolutely does not know how to separate the main from the secondary. And so he has porridge in his head, but not knowledge. I see something similar with you. Since you also do not distinguish between what Hitler saw his main task, and in what - secondary. In the text you quoted, he speaks three times about the war against France, but from the same text it is clear that France is only the immediate tactical task. Punish France for the Versailles humiliation, and provide Germany with a reliable rear before it moves east. That is precisely the campaign to the east, and specifically to Russia - that was what was most important for him! This directly follows from both of our quotes with you. And he did not indicate any geographical boundaries for the future conquest of Russia. So, “completely” he was going to conquer us or “not completely”, maybe what piece of land he was going to leave us ... It would be ridiculous if reality itself did not show: it was we who were the main victim of the war.
                      3. Alexey G 16 March 2020 19: 58 New
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                        Thank you for the compliment about reading, about the mess in my head I do not agree!
                        By what criteria do you define respected tactical and strategic goals?
                        I do not see in your comments a single intelligible criterion! By what criteria do you determine where the main goal is and where the secondary?
                        Here I have such a criterion! The word strategy of Greek origin and essentially means the art of a commander. As you know, such art represents a victory in the war! The word tactics is also of Greek origin and means the location of troops! As you know, tactics are a way to correctly build troops for victories in battles. The totality of victories in battles gives, as a rule, victory in a war. Thus, tactics are a way of victory in individual battles, and strategy is victory in the war as a whole! Based on the foregoing, Hitler waged two wars! One against France and its allies. (The French Campaign or the Fall of France (also: Six Week War [5]) is a military operation of the Axis countries in Western Europe from May to June 1940, which led to the defeat of the French, Belgian and Dutch armed forces, as well as the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force in France and ensured dominance in Europe of Germany and its allies).
                        The second war is known as (The Great Patriotic War (June 22, 1941 - May 9 [4] 1945) - the war of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics against Nazi Germany and its European allies (Hungary, Italy, Romania, Slovakia, Finland, who invaded Soviet territory) Croatia).
                        Both wars are part of World War II! So Hitler waged two wars, so he had two strategic goals, and not one, for victory in the war is a strategy, and victory in the battles of each war is a tactic.
                        However, first you need to remember another war (The Wehrmacht's Polish Campaign (1939), also known as the German-Polish War, the Invasion of Poland and Operation Weiss)! It is also an independent war in the framework of World War II! Thus, the Germans had at least three strategic goals! Victory over Poland, which guaranteed the unification of a divided Germany! CONQUEST OF FRANCE to secure the rear! The conclusion of peace with Britain and only then the company in Russia. If you do not capture Poland, then there is no way to fight with Russia, since there is no common border! If you do not capture France, then again you can’t fight with Russia as you can get from the rear! If you do not make peace with England, then again you can’t fight with Russia, because you have to fight on 2 fronts, which in the end the Germans got and lost the war! I do not agree to consider the war with Russia the main goal of Hitler because you yourself want it so! If Hitler prepared so poorly for a war with Russia, then he considered Russia a weak opponent to conquer which no extra efforts are needed! His main goal was France and the world with England, which he fears much more than Russia, considers one of them to be a very strong rival, with whom he is even afraid to fight and sees only as an ally! And Russia for him is only a ripe apple that will fall by itself if you kill a watchman in the garden in the form of France, and also agree with another watchman in England! so what is priority in his logic?
                        Obviously, this is a victory over France and an agreement with Britain!
                        In my judgment there is a logic and interconnection of thoughts! You don’t see such logic or you don’t demonstrate it! Therefore, sir porridge in your head, but I have order!
                      4. Pavel73 16 March 2020 20: 41 New
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                        Order, speak? Hitler reports in plain text that he is going to conquer Russia, and does not say a word about the conquest of France. Show where he was going to conquer France. Isolate - yes. Punish Versailles - yes. Eliminate the hegemony of France in Europe - yes. Eliminate the French threat from the rear - yes. To conquer the lands of France for the resettlement of Germans - NO! To conquer the lands of Russia for the resettlement of Germans - YES! You do not know how to choose the main thing. And the porridge in your head is exactly the same as that of my interlocutor.
                      5. Alexey G 16 March 2020 21: 14 New
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                        France is the mortal enemy of our people, it is strangling us and depriving us of all strength. That is why there is no sacrifice that we would not have to make in order to weaken France.

                        Find me at least one phrase that Russia is the mortal enemy of Germany !!! Which needs to be loosened at all costs !!! Are you blind or deaf? Can you only read or think too? This would give Germany the opportunity to calmly take up all the training that is needed in the framework of such a coalition in order to settle accounts with France in due time.
                        Weaken France, settle scores with her!
                        You can only in the war with her! Hitler in fact attacked and captured France and its lands! But Russia is a stupid donor, its capture is easy prey! So Hitler! France is the main enemy, Russia is secondary! France must be afraid, Russia is not! You have stupidity and contradictions in your head! A weak goal cannot be the main goal!
                      6. Pavel73 17 March 2020 04: 30 New
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                        Do you not understand the difference between weaken and conquer? You don’t understand the difference between “settling accounts” and “getting living space”? Do you not understand that in France no one was going to enslave and exterminate the local population? You do not understand what the Nazis staged in France, and what - in the USSR, can not be compared, and that it was planned from the very beginning? Then we have nothing to talk about with you anymore.
                      7. Alexey G 17 March 2020 19: 36 New
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                        I understand the difference between the words the main enemy and the secondary! Deadly and not deadly! Hard fight and not hard, long fight and fast! Yes, at that time Hitler could not even dream of capturing France! Therefore, he uses the verb to loosen! There is no Wehrmacht yet, there is no strength to fight the main enemy, but there is a desire to fight! Russia is a secondary enemy that Hitler does not respect and neglects even then! What happened then is not directly related to Mine Kampf. The Wehrmacht appeared, the state strengthened, Austria and the Czech Republic obeyed. The bottom line is that without a victory over France, Poland and England, there is nothing to dream of colonizing Russia. And the fact that they arranged where the Nazis is not directly related to the topic of our discussion! French women surrendered to the Germans willingly and without a fight! They acted with the Russians as with the Indians! Their numbers were reduced! The Americans also acted against the Indians! They drove prisoners on the reservation and did not feed!
                        But all this was possible only after the destruction of the main enemies! They are number one goal! If this is not clear to you, I'm sorry! I could not convince you, we will remain with my opinions! Thanks for the discussion!
                      8. Pavel73 17 March 2020 20: 35 New
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                        Nowhere, in any place did Hitler speak of the destruction of France, its conquest, the expansion of living space at the expense of France and the resettlement of Germans in France. All of the above, he originally gathered and tried to implement in Russia. Therefore, his main goal was precisely Russia. And it doesn’t matter who we were to him the "mortal enemy" or the "Indians." Living space for the German people - that was for him the highest goal. But not the punishment of France and the elimination of the French threat. These were the primary tasks, but not the main ones. The primary task is to settle accounts with France for the defeat in the WWI and eliminate the French threat from the rear. The main task is to conquer living space for the Germans. He wanted to do this in Russia. And this meant the destruction of our state, the extermination and enslavement of the local population. It meant nothing else and could not mean. And absolutely did not threaten the "mortal enemy", France. Therefore, by the way, she gave up so quickly.
                      9. Pavel73 17 March 2020 21: 03 New
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                        The main enemy is not the one they are going to "weaken" and even declare "deadly." The main enemy is the one they are going to destroy. I also thank you for the discussion. She helped me gain a foothold in my opinion about the causes and culprits of World War II. And this is by no means the USSR or Stalin. This is Nazi Germany, Hitler, and all the countries of the world that have signed any treaties and pacts with it, with the exception of the USSR.
            2. Alexey G 16 March 2020 20: 07 New
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              And he did not indicate any geographical boundaries for the future conquest of Russia. So, “completely” he was going to conquer us or “not completely”, maybe what piece of land he was going to leave us ... It would be ridiculous if reality itself did not show

              Pash is you funny! Look at the map of the USSR! The territory to the Volga is only a third of the territory of the USSR! Do you think that the rest is not enough? Is this a piece?
            3. Pavel73 16 March 2020 20: 33 New
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              Could you quote where in "Mein Kampf" Hitler promised to reach the Volga, and not a step further? The Barbarossa plan is not to offer. This is nothing more than a specific military operation. I'm not talking about the fact that we will not give up an inch of the earth, not just a third.
            4. Alexey G 16 March 2020 21: 15 New
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              so he’s not going to get anywhere there at all! only writes about some lands in Russia? And about what specifically not a word! the rest is your speculation!
              But in fact I was able to plan the capture of only a third of our territory! As I said, blitzkig is not for Russia! We need strategic aviation, or the factories will leave for the Urals and bye bye, which actually happened!
  • Alexey RA 16 March 2020 12: 15 New
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    Quote: Alexey G
    Seriously, Pasha, the obvious facts really indicate that Barbarossa is a very crude plan, worked out hastily and counting on luck. Strategic operations are not prepared like that! They are developed in detail, they take into account all the details!

    * looks thoughtfully at the Weserubung. wink
    Quote: Alexey G
    Even blitzkrieg itself, as a way of conducting quick operations, could work only within the framework of small territories! To conquer Russia, a very large army is needed, not like the Germans and not with 3.500 thousand tanks!

    Yes, the Germans did not plan a long-term war with the USSR. For them, the USSR was a big Poland - a semi-agrarian country with a large, but untrained army. And the Barbarossa plan was planned based on the then German ideas about the USSR (just like our pre-war plans came from our then ideas about Germany and the future war). We for them were just a milestone on the road to conflict with Britain. It was believed that almost the entire personnel army of the USSR was concentrated in the border districts - and after its encirclement and defeat, full-scale hostilities would end. The Wehrmacht will only have a march to the East, occasionally interrupted by the defeat of Soviet second-class divisions thrown from the wheels into battle from the internal districts. OKV and OKH, even in a terrible dream, could not dream of the Smolensk battle and the autumn-winter battle for Moscow.
    So the margin of safety at Barbarossa was quite large. But still not enough.
    And about the unpreparedness of the Germans for the winter war - say thanks to the German rear. The Germans had the same winter uniform - they even loaded it and tried to deliver it. But she crawled to the front only in January (thanks, among other things, to the grandiose Warsaw railway jam).
    1. ser56 19 March 2020 12: 24 New
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      Quote: Alexey RA
      thanks, among other things, to the grandiose Warsaw traffic jam).

      and this is without war on reels by saboteurs - as Starikov suggested ...
  • 1970mk 13 March 2020 10: 09 New
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    It is only necessary to add that Hitler declared the goal of a future war, the conquest of Russia, back in 1926, in the published book "Mein Kampf".

    How interesting)) Indicate ka page, chapter of this book! You are an expert on what is written in Kampf Mine)) You can’t? Then do not smack nonsense!
    1. Pavel73 13 March 2020 10: 48 New
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      I repeat for you - chapter 14 "Oriental orientation or oriental politics." Everything is chewed there.
      1. 1970mk 13 March 2020 13: 24 New
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        Quote: Pavel73
        I repeat for you - chapter 14 "Oriental orientation or oriental politics." Everything is chewed there.

        I repeat for you again - in this chapter there is no "goal of a future war to conquer Russia" ..
        By the way, why don't you talk about the conquest of France, England, etc.? You are so funny with your notions ..
        1. Pavel73 13 March 2020 16: 23 New
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          Fool included? What specifically Hitler wrote in this chapter, I set out above. Do not want to know this - your problems.
          1. 1970mk 13 March 2020 19: 54 New
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            The very fact that the included chapter called read .....
            1. Pavel73 16 March 2020 12: 32 New
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              I wouldn’t say it here if I hadn’t read it before.
  • DMB 75 13 March 2020 06: 36 New
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    The myth that Stalin planned and unleashed World War II

    There are many myths about Stalin, not just this one. You can’t say better than him.
    1. Stas57 13 March 2020 11: 46 New
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      And brought a myth
  • rocket757 13 March 2020 06: 59 New
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    If only, yes if only ... "history has no subjunctive mood" !!!
    EVERYTHING, debriefing has long to be completed!
    1. Insurgent 13 March 2020 07: 59 New
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      Quote: rocket757
      EVERYTHING, debriefing has long to be completed!

      The problem is that the West has fallen off hands, from the word ABSOLUTELY, in its desire to "pull the blanket of history" onto itself.
      And until another way has been found how to curb these attempts.
      1. rocket757 13 March 2020 08: 06 New
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        You can’t ... do something, don’t torment .. smiling in vain. Look for a way, look for measures, look for means ... as you find, you can start the process in a new way.
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 March 2020 07: 52 New
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    I don’t even know what is worse - the ravings of Western and pro-Western propagandists that Stalin is the instigator of WWII, or fantasy from Samsonov, which has nothing to do with real history ...
  • bubalik 13 March 2020 08: 11 New
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    Victory parade. Soviet soldiers with the defeated standards of the Nazi troops. June 24, 1945
    ,,, interesting photo. As a result of the SMERSH activities, by the time of the Red Army by June 1945 there were about 200 flags, standards and banners of various units and paramilitary organizations in Germany. From the memoirs of Sergei Shtemenko, Stalin said:
    “Hitler’s banners must be brought to the Parade and shamefully thrown them at the feet of the victors. Think about how to do this.”








    SMERShevtsy were not specialists in heraldry and vexillology, and part of those two hundred banners turned out to be completely irrelevant to the Wehrmacht - the Armed Forces of the Third Reich.
    For the Volkssturm, separate banners were not made and, for maintenance of fighting spirit, the banner of the regiments of the German Empire was issued from the Zeichhaus to the parts of the army. banners of the XIX century.
    1. Naz
      Naz 13 March 2020 09: 14 New
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      And what from this?
      1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Pane Kohanku 13 March 2020 15: 15 New
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      From the memoirs of Sergei Shtemenko, Stalin said:
      “Hitler’s banners must be brought to the Parade and shamefully thrown them at the feet of the victors. Think about how to do this.”

      hmm .. I didn’t understand why so many minuses were stuck to the esteemed Bubalik? What did he say wrong? soldier or is it those who "play for the Germans" stuck? hi
  • Jurkovs 13 March 2020 08: 15 New
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    Why did everyone run into Stalin? If the military hadn’t taken off their pants, and at least could have avoided encirclement and transferred the war to a protracted stage in the summer of 40, then it would have been different.
  • BAI
    BAI 13 March 2020 08: 37 New
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    1.
    returned to the composition of our power our ancestral lands: Western Belarus, Western Little Russia, Bessarabia, the Baltic states, Karelia.

    The accession of Western Ukraine is a strategic mistake, which we are now actively learning.
    2.
    Moscow had a powerful intelligence network in Germany and Europe. The Kremlin received full data on the resources of Nazi Germany, its weapons, military programs, which were to be completed only after a few years.

    All historians have noted the disgusting quality of intelligence coming from Germany.
    № 327
    REPORT OF THE HEAD OF DEPARTMENT OF THE GENERAL STAFF OF THE RED ARMY OF GENERAL LIEUTENANT GOLIKOV IN THE NPO OF THE USSR, SNK OF THE USSR AND THE CENTRAL CPSU (B.)
    non-cash
    20 March 1941 city


    Conclusion:
    1. On the basis of all the above statements and possible options for action in the spring of this year, I believe that the most probable timeline for the start of action against the USSR will be the moment after the victory over England or after the conclusion of an peace honorable for Germany with it.
    2. Rumors and documents that speak of the inevitability of a war against the USSR in the spring of this year should be regarded as misinformation coming from the British and even, perhaps, German intelligence.
    Head of Intelligence
    General Staff of the Red Army
    lieutenant general (Golikov)

    TSA MO RF. Op. 14750. D. 1. Ll. 12-21. Manuscript, certified copy. There are litters and corrections. Attached is a map of the possible options for the German attack on
    1. Alexey RA 13 March 2020 12: 56 New
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      Quote: BAI
      1. Based on all the above statements and possible options for action this spring, I believe that the most possible time period for the start of action against the USSR will be the moment after the victory over England or after the conclusion of an peace honorable for Germany with it.

      ICH, in contrast to intelligence reports that Germany is about to attack, regularly replaced by reports "the Germans will not attack," reports that the attack on the USSR will occur only after final resolution of the British question not refuted and came from all sources.
  • iouris 13 March 2020 10: 01 New
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    Our state has created a desert on the ruins of the ideology of the USSR, the fourth dozen modern Moses drive a subordinate population in this desert and introduce these ideas into the heads of the younger generation to fight them? Does not look like it. Piglets know their business. Another fifteen years, and the "cultural revolution", which the modern "Bolsheviks" have been talking about all the time, will win.
  • 1970mk 13 March 2020 10: 06 New
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    Myth? Did not plan? So funny! To have tanks at times more than the whole world, is it just that? With Airplanes the same topic ...
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 March 2020 10: 34 New
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      Gods, what nonsense ... I thought the resunoids were already extinct, like dinosaurs, but here you go
      1. Doctor 13 March 2020 12: 25 New
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        Gods, what nonsense ... I thought the resunoids were already extinct, like dinosaurs, but here you go

        And what is wrong? In one 8 mechanized corps a quarter of the entire German army.

        "By June 1941, the corps had about 30 thousand personnel, Xnumx tank (the state relied 1031). However, only 34 heavy and medium-sized KV and T-169 tanks arrived. The remaining 763 vehicles were outdated, the interrepair mileage of their undercarriage did not exceed 500 kilometers, most of them were running out of resources. 197 tanks were subject to factory repair due to technical malfunctions.
        DI. Ryabyshev The first year of the war.
        1. Alexey RA 13 March 2020 13: 09 New
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          Quote: Arzt
          And what is wrong? In one 8 mechanized corps a quarter of the entire German army.

          Yeah .. on paper. And in fact, the new tanks have practically no trained crews (there are about a hundred combat training KV and T-34 crews in the five border districts), and the old ones are worn out and are waiting for spare parts from the industry (and they will as planned wait until 1942).
          And if you remember that the tanks themselves do not fight ...
          Here is the personnel of the 12th TD of the 8th MK:
          The division has a significant lack of staff - 282 people, i.e. 21% In positions, this shortage falls on platoon commanders - 41 people, company commanders - 25 people ... A large shortage of junior command personnel in the division - 521 people, i.e. 21.6%. There is a surplus of Red Army personnel — 896 people. A significant shortage of middle and junior command personnel and an extra staff of rank and file create an overload for the command staff, which greatly complicates the normal course of combat training ... When checking the command staff of the 2nd battalion of 12 motorized infantry regiment in the amount of 15 people. on elementary issues of infantry tactics it turned out:
          1 pax knows well - 7%
          2 pax they know mediocrely - 13%
          12 pax they know poorly - 80%
          When checking the tactical training of the command personnel of the 3rd battalion of the 24th tank regiment, it turned out:
          6 pax mediocre - 46%
          7 pax weak - 54% ...
          Most of the command personnel of these battalions completed all sorts of short-term courses. Many of the personnel of the 12th Motorized Rifle Regiment stated that they had never read the infantry combat manual of part II and the 36th field manual. The knowledge of the command staff of the 3rd battalion of the 24th tank regiment does not go beyond the combat charter of the tank troops, part 1. They did not read other charters. Military magazines are not read. According to the order, the 24th tank regiment received 1 copy of the Military Thought magazine and 3 copies. "Armored Journal." In general, the level of training of command personnel, especially in tactics, is low ...
          They did not engage in single training of an infantry fighter in tank battalions, and many of the chiefs of staff consider that this is not necessary for tank units.
          © Ulanov / Shein
          ICH, state of instability the troops entrusted to the GABTU and the General Staff of the Red Army are well known.
          1. Doctor 13 March 2020 13: 17 New
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            Yeah .. on paper. But in fact, new tanks have practically no trained crews

            You sound like there’s no one to ride on tanks at all. Partly true, learning is an endless process.
            However, Comcor Ryabyshev has a different opinion:

            Although the rank-and-file and sergeant personnel, as well as part of the mid-level commander’s level, weren’t sufficiently trained in new specialties, nevertheless, by the beginning of the war, the corps, along with the 4th corps, were considered the most prepared in combat respect in comparison with other mechanized corps of our army. Of course, in a year it was possible to prepare a corps and better. But in order to save motor resources, the Red Army’s Armored Directorate did not allow us to conduct combat training of crews on new tanks.

            About ten days before the start of the war, we were visited by the head of this department, Lieutenant General of Tank Forces Ya. N. Fedorenko. I asked him for permission to conduct exercises on new combat vehicles so that the drivers would practice driving their tanks, but he would not allow and hinted that in the near future there might be conditions where everyone will have plenty of practice. For this, it is necessary to save motor resources.


            Speaking of Rezun. For what purposes were they going to save motor resources ... wink
            1. Liam 13 March 2020 14: 09 New
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              A RA colleague always does. One and the same quotes (from Ulanov / Shein mostly) are used to argue completely opposite points, depending on the topic that he decides to support.
              It is necessary to justify the creation of 29 mechanized corps - he is ready to quote from completely taken from the ceiling reports of the General Staff about the number of German tank divisions and the capabilities of the German tank industry, and taunts them, criticizing and showing what kind of linden they wrote.
              But if the topic is why the Red Army missed the deployment, he immediately has the same data written from the ceiling of the same RU with absolutely wild numbers of Polish railway throughput compared to the USSR. But in this case, the same linden of the same GU does not raise any doubts. And so on all topics)
              1. Alexey RA 16 March 2020 11: 13 New
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                Quote: Liam
                A RA colleague always does. One and the same quotes (from Ulanov / Shein mostly) are used to argue completely opposite points, depending on the topic that he decides to support.

                In fact, there are no contradictions.
                Now we can laugh over reports documented criticism of Soviet intelligence data from 1940-1941 But in assessing the validity of the actions of the Soviet leadership at this time, we still must first take into account precisely them. Because it is necessary to evaluate the validity taking into account the information available to the management at the time of the decision.
                No action of an officer can be evaluated on the basis of information that he did not have at the time when he was doing his duty.

                Therefore, modern criticism of Soviet intelligence data on the basis of modern data does not at all contradict the validity of the actions of the country's leadership in 40-41. based on this intelligence. Because the management didn’t have other data - "There is no Internet and Google is not available.".
                Quote: Liam
                It is necessary to justify the creation of 29 mechanized corps - he is ready to quote from completely taken from the ceiling reports of the General Staff about the number of German tank divisions and the capabilities of the German tank industry, and taunts them, criticizing and showing what kind of linden they wrote.

                Good example. Yes, I have repeatedly mentioned the pre-war "German heavy tank divisions"And"German serial heavy tanks produced in French and Czechoslovak factories"that existed exclusively in the reports of our intelligence - as an excellent example of the disgusting work of this intelligence itself.
                But at the same time, talking about the creation of 29 MK, I just as many times noted that their formation was justified - due to the presence of such panic reports of intelligence. Which at that time were the only source of information about the Panzervaff. And the leadership made decisions precisely on the basis of the data that he had at that time, for he did not have a time machine and a “laptop sent from the future”. smile
                1. ser56 19 March 2020 12: 29 New
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                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  that their formation was justified - due to the presence of such panic reports from intelligence.

                  you have a curious "logic"! Resources are needed to form compounds, not reports ... request
            2. Alexey RA 13 March 2020 15: 51 New
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              Quote: Arzt
              You sound like there’s no one to ride on tanks at all. Partly true, learning is an endless process.
              However, Comcor Ryabyshev has a different opinion:

              We read carefully:
              Quote: Arzt
              Although Private and sergeant personnel, as well as part of the mid-level commanders’s level, were not sufficiently trained in new specialtiesNevertheless, by the beginning of the war, the corps, along with the 4th, was considered the most prepared in combat respect in comparison with other mechanized corps of our army. Of course, in a year it was possible to prepare a corps and better. But in order to save motor resources, the Red Army’s Armored Directorate did not allow us to conduct combat training of crews on new tanks.
              About ten days before the start of the war, we were visited by the head of this department, Lieutenant General of Tank Forces Ya. N. Fedorenko. I asked him for permission to conduct exercises on new combat vehicles so that the drivers would practice driving their tanks, but he would not allow and hinted that in the near future there may be conditions where everyone will have plenty of practice. For this, it is necessary to save motor resources.

              That is, Ryabyshev directly writes that training of crews on new tanks was not carried out. And this is in the most prepared corps.
              However, the methodology for tightening the level of training was announced at the meeting in 1940 - and instead of knowledge, let's check physical training?
              Quote: Arzt
              Speaking of Rezun. For what purposes were they going to save motor resources ...

              10 days before the war? Then there was already more or less reliable information about a possible attack.
              1. Doctor 13 March 2020 16: 18 New
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                That is, Ryabyshev directly writes that training of crews on new tanks was not carried out. And this is in the most prepared corps.

                Alexey, Ryabyshev’s memoirs were published in the early 90s. They clearly see the reason for our failures at the initial stage.
                A mess in the leadership of the troops.

                ... I received the order of the commander of the 26th Army at 10 o’clock. The corps was tasked by the end of the day on June 22 to concentrate in the forests 10 kilometers west of Sambir. This meant that we should have been in the reserve of this army. I immediately ordered the troops ..
                .... The march was very difficult, as the troops of the 13th Rifle Corps, Major General N.K. Kirillov, marched towards, from Sambir to Drohobych ...
                ... In the evening we entered the Sambir forests ...
                ... At this time, Lieutenant Colonel A.K. Blazhei from the headquarters of the 26th Army hastily approached me. We stepped aside, and he handed me the order of the commander of the Southwestern Front, Colonel General MP P. Kirponos. The corps troops were to make a return night march along the same broken road, by dawn on June 23, reach the area east of Lviv and be at the disposal of the commander of the 6th Army, Lieutenant General I.N. Muzychenko.
                So, after a 70-80-kilometer march to the west, without rest, we had to make a 120-kilometer march to the east ...
                ... June 23 at 12 o’clock a significant part of the tank units concentrated in these areas ...
                ... Losev reported that he had brought a package from the front headquarters. This was a new order of the commander of the Southwestern Front, according to which by the end of the day on June 24 the troops of the 8th Mechanized Corps were to concentrate in the area of ​​the city of Brody, and in the morning of June 25 to strike at the tank group of the Nazi troops in the direction of Brody, Berestechko ...
                ... All night there was intense preparation for a new transition. By 10 o’clock in the morning, the commanders of the divisions and units reported their readiness to speak ...


                Only on June 25 did they enter the first battle.

                ... The next day, June 25, at 15 p.m. the advance detachments of the corps reached Brody, and by the end of the day the main forces of the corps were concentrated in the indicated area. Here we summed up our four-day intense 500-kilometer march along the roads of war. The results were joyless: a large number of tanks of old structures were out of order and could not reach the area of ​​concentration. T-35 tanks, for example, were all left on traffic routes. Far from all arrived, the flamethrower tank battalion (T-26) of the 24th tank regiment of the 12th tank division. Remained on the roads and other tanks of old designs. By this time, large defects were revealed in the KV tanks. Their brake tapes from frequent turns during prolonged continuous movement overheated and failed ....
                1. Alexey RA 16 March 2020 11: 19 New
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                  Quote: Arzt
                  Alexey, Ryabyshev’s memoirs were published in the early 90s. They clearly see the reason for our failures at the initial stage.
                  A mess in the leadership of the troops.

                  One of the reasons. With the presence of which I do not argue. When the commander of the okrug / front begins by his will to cancel the orders of the chief of the General Staff, and the commander of the army ignores the orders of the commander of the front, wait for trouble.
          2. 1970mk 13 March 2020 13: 26 New
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            But in fact, new tanks have practically no trained crews

            And in Germany was an analogue of our new tanks? And who is to blame for the fact that there were no crews? And who is to blame that the tanks riveted and their condition is not so hot?
            1. Doctor 13 March 2020 13: 32 New
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              And in Germany was an analogue of our new tanks?

              Of course. PzKpfw.IV Ausf.F


              And who is to blame for the fact that there were no crews? And who is to blame that the tanks riveted and their condition is not so hot?

              Good question! The one who determined the development strategy of the tank forces. tongue
              1. 1970mk 13 March 2020 13: 34 New
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                400 T4 with 75 short-barreled cannon can be equated with 1000 t-34 and several hundred KV?)))
                1. ser56 19 March 2020 12: 31 New
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                  Quote: 1970mk
                  1000 t-34 and several hundred HF?)))

                  You forgot about the 500 T-28 ...
            2. Alexey RA 13 March 2020 15: 57 New
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              Quote: 1970mk
              And in Germany was an analogue of our new tanks?

              It was. According to the results of trials in Kubinka, our specialists admitted that the T-34 mod. 40 does not have significant advantages over it except the caliber of the gun (which was leveled by the almost complete absence of 76,2 mm AP shells and the transition to steel cast iron in the OFS buildings).
              As for HF, the Germans really did not have such a collection of structural and manufacturing defects (see the results of the work of the Mehlis commission at the LKZ in 1940).
        2. 1970mk 13 March 2020 13: 32 New
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          You just add the decryption to it obsolete ....))) And than these "obsolete" were inferior to BT-7, T-26, T-28, etc. Germany pt38 or t1 and t 2 is probably the top of our time))
          1. Doctor 13 March 2020 13: 36 New
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            400 T4 with 75 short-barreled cannon can be equated with 1000 t-34 and several hundred KV?)))

            You just add the decryption to it obsolete ....))) And than these "obsolete" were inferior to BT-7, T-26, T-28, etc. Germany pt38 or t1 and t 2 is probably the top of our time))


            I agree with you 100%. It's not about the tanks. In those conditions, at least give the T-90, one outcome ...
            1. 1970mk 13 March 2020 13: 42 New
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              The matter is in the Leader’s Wise policy .... And with nothing else he agrees that the USSR did not want to fight .... There really are many more tanks than in the whole world ... the quality is not worse than that of others (modestly speaking). ..In the same way for new types of aircraft, by June 22, 1941, it was commensurate with the total number of all German Air Forces. Yakovlev wrote about the German airplanes — you wonder… they got them all types of airplanes from the Germans in the year 40 and called these airplanes OLD! And Me 109, etc. The crews are another topic .... A wise guide)))) But the fact that the mountains of weapons were not riveted to be placed on a pedestal.
        3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 March 2020 14: 23 New
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          First, you need to understand that the strength of the army is not measured by the presence of a specific type of weapon. To consider the strength of the army by the number of tanks is absurd, but in order to understand the country's intentions it is necessary to study its military plans. Secondly, mobility is needed to capture something. And for the mobility of the army you need a truck. Therefore, if one wants to measure the aggressiveness of armies in the quantity of equipment (which, generally speaking, is fundamentally wrong), then this must be done in cars :)))
          In general - I highly recommend reading Churchill, he walked very well in dividing weapons into defensive and offensive :)))
          1. Doctor 13 March 2020 14: 28 New
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            First, you need to understand that the strength of the army is not measured by the presence of a specific type of weapon.

            Of course. Forces. Facilities. Training. As in any business.
            Means were abundant.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 March 2020 18: 18 New
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              Quote: Arzt
              Means were abundant.

              There were NO funds. The army actually began to deploy in 1939. Prior to this - scanty states, the absence of universal military service, a triple division, near-zero combat training. We read the documents of NGOs - Voroshilov and Tymoshenko. And why?
              There were no funds for a large army. What the Germans began to do in 1936 (full-scale restoration of the armed forces, universal military service), we started this almost 3 years later.
              1. ser56 19 March 2020 12: 34 New
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                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Before that - scanty states, oh

                and the number of the Red Army As of January 1, 1937 - 1 people. request
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk 19 March 2020 16: 38 New
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                  Quote: ser56
                  and the number of the Red Army As of January 1, 1937 - 1 people.

                  Huh. STAFF
                  1. ser56 19 March 2020 18: 34 New
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                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Huh. STAFF

                    compare with the Wehrmacht? and how many years the racer was 110t, and the Red Army 550t, and in the Red Army there was a call, although not universal ...
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk 20 March 2020 07: 18 New
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                      No question, tell the staff of the Wehrmacht for 1937 :))
                      Further. I do not see point-blank how one refutes the other. What is the point of comparing the Red Army and the Wehrmacht in 1937? What, at that moment, was the Wehrmacht? Anschluss of Austria at the beginning of the 38th recall how the mechanized troops of the Germans collapsed along the road to Vienna without the slightest resistance of the enemy?
                      The Wehrmacht began to expand in 1935. But it became only 4 years later, in 1939, before the occupation of the Rhine region and Austria, it became a real fighting force capable of crushing the same Poland (but hardly France).
                      In our country, out of 37 of 90 with some peacetime rifle divisions, more than a third were territorial, many others were partially formed on a territorial basis
                      1. ser56 20 March 2020 11: 58 New
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                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        What is the point of comparing the Red Army and the Wehrmacht in 1937

                        corny - as an explanation for the fact that the classic propaganda - Stalin delayed the war - this is stupid! The Wehrmacht developed faster than the Red Army! Therefore, the delay of war is a crime of temporary detention! Churchill described it well, though with respect to Britain - but the essence does not change ... request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Anschluss of Austria at the beginning of the 38th recall how the mechanized troops of the Germans collapsed along the road to Vienna without the slightest resistance of the enemy?

                        we have already discussed this, comparing it with the march of tank brigades of the Red Army in Mongolia along column tracks ... hi
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In our country, out of 37 of 90 with some peacetime rifle divisions, more than a third were territorial, many others were partially formed on a territorial basis

                        However, even in 1939 the Wehrmacht did not have combat ready 60 sd, as in the Red Army in 1937 ...
                        "" By September 1, 1939, 12 army corps from 38 divisions were formed
                        I note that the Red Army still had very combat-ready cavalry units (9 units in 1937), each with 128 BT tanks, as well as 37 gs, there were 4 MKs, 24 light and 4 heavy TBRs ...
                      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk 20 March 2020 23: 20 New
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                        Quote: ser56
                        corny - as an explanation for the fact that the classic propaganda - Stalin delayed the war - this is stupid! The Wehrmacht developed faster than the Red Army! Therefore, the delay of war is a crime of temporary detention!

                        I won’t even ask how you were going to fight against Germany in 1937 :)))) Especially considering that Germany and the USSR didn’t have a common border :)))) Or do you think that the Red Army would have crushed on the move Poland, and for a snack - the Wehrmacht? :)))
                        Quote: ser56
                        we have already discussed this, comparing it with the march of tank brigades of the Red Army in Mongolia along column tracks ...

                        The Wehrmacht did not become stronger from this. Red Army - too.
                        Quote: ser56
                        However, even in 1939 the Wehrmacht did not have combat ready 60 sd, as in the Red Army in 1937 ...

                        Firstly, the USSR neither in 1937 nor in 1938 had 60 combat-ready combat units. Secondly, if we consider the SD, then in 1937 the Germans had 36 infantry, 4 reserve and 21 Landwehr divisions, and in total 61 peacetime divisions versus 96 Soviet peacetime divisions. At the same time, there were more German divisions (up to 17 thousand people across the state versus 9-13 thousand among ours) Secondly, in 1939 the Germans mobplan in 1939 provided for the deployment of 86 infantry, 3 mountain rifle, 4 motorized and 4 light infantry divisions. Of these, 52 divisions were deployed for the war with Poland - in full staff. Another 42 divisions at this time were in the deployment and combat coordination
                        Quote: ser56
                        I note that the Red Army still had a very combat-ready cavalry corps (9 pieces in 1937)

                        The number of cavalry of peacetime on 1.1.1938 was 95 people.
                      3. ser56 21 March 2020 16: 45 New
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                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Or do you think that the Red Army would immediately defeat Poland, and the Wehrmacht for a snack? :)))

                        1) you probably think this is humor - I’ll answer that by no means - you just perverted my thesis, started self-prophecy - I wrote “that the classic propaganda-Stalin delayed the war”, it can be seen from my phrase that it refers to the situation AFTER the start of 2MB request
                        2) The Red Army really defeated on the move those remnants of the Polish army who resisted the Red Army march in September 1939 - will you deny it?
                        3) I recall the situation in October 1939 - Germany is isolated, it has a Western front, Romania and Finland do not have much desire to fight the USSR. Yes, the Germans have the resources of Austria and Czechoslovakia, but even Hungary and Italy are not yet obliged to fight ... And now, after the "brilliant" foreign policy of the IVS in June 1941, what do we have? The resources of almost the whole of Europe are against us, Romania (for Bessarabia), Finland (for the Winter War) are putting up their armies, Hungary (for Hitler’s territorial handouts) is preparing, Slovakia, Spain is forming an expeditionary force ... So the front is from the Barents Sea to Black .. request And we still hear - the brilliant Stalin delayed the war ... request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Of these, 52 divisions were deployed for the war with Poland - in full staff. Another 42 divisions at this time were in the deployment and combat coordination

                        and in 1941 against ONLY there were noticeably more divisions ... request But Stalin is a genius .. bully

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The Wehrmacht did not become stronger from this. Red Army - too.

                        at the indicated stage - the summer of 1939, the armored brigades of the Red Army had both a level of training and equipment at least no worse. than the Wehrmacht! In general, they confirmed this during the Liberation Campaign in 1939 ...
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The number of cavalry of peacetime on 1.1.1938 was 95 people.

                        exactly - 9KK! Not a very small, well-trained and mobile force with more than 1000 tanks! recall how the KMG fought in the Second World War?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Secondly, in 1939 the Germans mobplan in 1939 provided for the deployment of 86 infantry, 3 mountain rifle, 4 motorized and 4 light infantry divisions.

                        1) you can re-read in Zhukov’s memoir - what Marshal Timoshenko suggested in negotiations with the British and French - the deployment of 120 rifle divisions ... request As you know - the resources (primarily weapons) for this were ...
                        2) besides this, we had 36 Tbr ... request
                      4. Andrei from Chelyabinsk 21 March 2020 18: 24 New
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                        Quote: ser56
                        1) probably you think it is humor - I’ll answer that not at all - you just perverted my thesis, engaged in self-defense

                        You again fell into fierce nonsense.
                        Quote: ser56
                        I wrote "that the classical propaganda campaign - Stalin delayed the war", from my phrase it is clear that it refers to the situation AFTER the beginning of 2MB

                        In what place, interesting? I asked you a specific question
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        What is the point of comparing the Red Army and the Wehrmacht in 1937?

                        Got an answer
                        Quote: ser56
                        corny - as an explanation for the fact that the classic propaganda - Stalin delayed the war - this is stupid! The Wehrmacht developed faster than the Red Army! Therefore, the delay of war is a crime of temporary detention!

                        And in what place is the beginning of 2MB here?
                        Quote: ser56
                        The Red Army really defeated on the move those remnants of the Polish army who resisted the Red Army’s Liberation Campaign in September 1939 — will you deny it?

                        And what, does this indicate that the Red Army was significantly superior to the Poles? Given the fact that the most organized resistance to Polish wax was given by as many as two regiments of the Sarnensky UR with artillery?
                        In fact, an impartial analysis of the Polish operation shows that the Red Army categorically did not know how to conduct offensive operations.
                        Quote: ser56
                        Let me remind you of the situation in October 1939 - Germany is isolated, it has a Western front, Romania and Finland do not have much desire to fight the USSR.

                        Yeah :))). And now it’s real. There is no "western front", there are England and France who do not want to fight well, but And the real level of the Red Army is the Soviet-Finnish war.
                        Quote: ser56
                        And after the "brilliant" foreign policy of the IVS in June 1941, what do we have?

                        First of all, we have a significantly improved Red Army, a significantly improved training system for commanders and fighters, and a decent growth in the military industry.
                        Quote: ser56
                        and in 1941 there were ONLY noticeably more divisions against us ... request But Stalin was a genius ..

                        The question is that we had noticeably more of them.
                        In fact, a certain amount of truth in your delirium, strangely enough, is present. If the IVS had the aftertaste and precisely imagined the potential of the Wehrmacht and the Red Army and when exactly France would fall and when the attack on the USSR would take place, then yes. He should have attacked, but not in 1939, of course, but in the 1940th, when Germany rushed to France. Moreover, in order to prepare this attack in a timely manner, you should have FULL afterglow and know exactly how quickly France will be defeated - then yes, it would be possible to strengthen the border districts very carefully by the right time.
                        The IVS, of course, could not have anything like that, and only a rabid theoretician could blame him for not supporting France in 1940. And to say that it was profitable for him to start a war in 1939 during the Polish campaign, only one who does not understand anything in history can speak
                      5. mat-vey 21 March 2020 18: 44 New
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                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You again fell into fierce nonsense.

                        Very precisely ....
                      6. ser56 23 March 2020 12: 56 New
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                        [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk] You again fell into fierce nonsense. [/ quote]
                        arguments over? request
                        [quote = mat-vey] And in what place is the beginning of 2MB here? [/ quote]
                        yes corny - development can be watched only in dynamics! Therefore, the dynamics of the development of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht before the start of WW2 can be estimated at least for a couple of years.
                        [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk] In fact, an impartial analysis of the Polish operation shows that the Red Army categorically did not know how to conduct offensive operations. [/ quote]
                        1) Do you speak so confidently for the entire Red Army? Remind me, what happened in Mongolia in August 39?
                        2) The Red Army had flaws, but the Wehrmacht was far from the 41g model.
                        [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk]. There is no "western front", there are England and France who do not want to fight well, but And the real level of the Red Army is the Soviet-Finnish war. [/ quote]
                        1) Even a strange war required the deployment of troops, and most importantly, a single anti-Soviet bloc was destroyed ... request By the way, this is the real achievement of the IVS, but for some reason he began to be friends with Hitler ... request
                        2) The Soviet-Finnish war is in special conditions, in these and the Wehrmacht in winter 41g does not look very nice ... request But it is always amusing when events are thrown out of the deck to fit the result - and what did the war in Mongolia show about the level of the Red Army? hi
                        [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk] First of all, we have a significantly improved Red Army, a significantly improved training system for commanders and soldiers and a decent growth in the military industry. [/ quote]
                        yeah bast-bast, start from the beginning ... request Not absolute numbers are important, but relative for the USSR and Germany!
                        1) The Wehrmacht progressed faster - comparable in 39 and 41g? In 39 g, the Wehrmacht excelled in training and combat experience of the Red Army, but not catastrophically, as in 41 .... Blitzkrieg tactics were not worked out! And there were no tank groups yet!
                        2) The growth of the military industry in Germany was higher - both due to the seizure of the resources of France, Belgium and others, as well as oil from Romania!
                        3) On the side of Germany are 2 large armies of Romania and Finland! and these are 2 additional fronts!
                        [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk] In fact, a certain fraction of the truth in your delirium, oddly enough, is present. [/ quote]
                        I have a great pedagogical experience ... hi
                        [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk] If the IVS had the aftertaste and accurately imagined the potential of the Wehrmacht and the Red Army [/ quote]
                        What is the knowledge after? Little defeat of Poland? Yes, the USSR received its share, brought a discord among the capitals countries — that’s good! But then play with Hitler? Why conclude a Friendship Agreement with Hitler?
                        [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk] and when exactly France will fall, and when the attack on the USSR will take place, then yes. He [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk] should have attacked, but not in 1939, of course, but in 1940, when Germany rushed to France. [/ quote]
                        1) And when does France fall? It just cannot be allowed! The defeat of France leaves us face to face, not just with Germany, but with the whole of Europe - this is the worst possible option! Do you think the king simply sacrificed Samsonov’s army?
                        2) I agree about 1940 - it was optimal to declare a hidden mobilization on May 10, but it was necessary to hit after 2 weeks, but waiting for concentration — exactly how RI did! The temporary detention facility showed its strategic ignorance, which was spilled into us by terrible blood ...
                        [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk] to say that it was profitable for him to start a war in 1939 during the Polish campaign [/ quote]
                        Red Army concentration would end by November 39g! The Red Army attack in this case has less chance than in May 40g, but the defeat of Germany is quite real due to the lack of fuel and other resources! But this is not the political loss of friendship with Hitler, and most importantly, a single anti-Soviet bloc is not being created ... Diplomatically, it was possible to obtain from England and France recognition of the Curzon line, Bessarabia and around Leningrad.
                        [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk] who doesn’t understand anything at all in history [/ quote]
                        The existence of plans for a preemptive strike against Hitler has already been recognized ... so maybe the theory of V. Suvorov about the Plan of the Storm is not entirely nonsense ... request
  • 1970mk 13 March 2020 13: 29 New
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    Strange, but I thought that people like you had a break)))) What is the number of Soviet tanks in the Western districts .... and the number of German tanks .. List the Types at the same time .... Let us give our answer to Rezun))
    1. Doctor 13 March 2020 14: 04 New
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      We give our answer to Rezun

      Let's give.
      The Institute of Military History of the Russian Ministry of Defense issued a brochure:
      The combat and strength of the Armed Forces of the USSR during the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945

      http://militera.lib.ru/enc/0/pdf/statsbornik1.pdf



      Everything there, from rifles to battleships, sorted by district, fitness category, etc.
      Armored vehicles on pages 132 - 135.






      On page 134, in the Western direction of all tanks and self-propelled guns - 12 782
      And in the army there are only 23 106.
      A total of 25932 armored vehicles, including in the West 13.

      And the Germans have about 3.

      It is clear now why we do not like to remember the beginning of the war?
      1. 1970mk 13 March 2020 14: 14 New
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        So this is not my answer))) Above Mr. Patriot ...
      2. Alexey RA 13 March 2020 16: 42 New
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        Quote: Arzt
        Everything there, from rifles to battleships, sorted by district, fitness category, etc.

        Hehe hehe ... and here again we are faced with the cunning of Soviet statistics. See for yourself - these are the categories for the property:
        Orders of KO No. 12-16 of 1940 and the Manual on Accounting and Reporting in the Red Army provided for the division of all property according to its quality condition into the following categories:
        1st category - new, not previously in use, meeting the requirements of technical conditions and quite suitable for its intended use.
        2nd category - former (in) use, fully operational and suitable for its intended use. This also includes property requiring military repair (current repair).
        3rd category - requiring repair in district workshops (medium repair).
        4th category - requiring repair in central workshops and factories (major repairs). ”

        Attention, the question is - what category does the tank standing in the park without tracks belong to (because the trucks are not delivered by the industry)? The correct answer is to the second. The same one, which is usually written in combat readiness, forgetting about the postscript "This also includes property requiring military repair (current repair)".
        And such trackless vehicles can be up to 30%. Here is one of the 9th MK tank regiments:
        The combat vehicles available in the regiment are assigned to the combat training fleet and received in most cases after major repairs from repair bases. tools, accessories and spare parts ... Up to 30% of the available fleet of vehicles requires a change in track tracks. Four tanks have breakdowns, but cannot be restored due to lack of spare parts. One emergency tank requires a change in the crank of a sloth; the means of the regiment cannot be restored.
        © Ulanov / Shein
        1. ser56 19 March 2020 12: 35 New
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          Quote: Alexey RA
          and here again we are faced with the cunning of Soviet statistics

          and who is responsible for it? request
      3. Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 March 2020 18: 26 New
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        Quote: Arzt
        And the Germans have about 3.

        I repeat, the strength of the army is not measured in the number of tanks :)))
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk 13 March 2020 18: 20 New
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      Quote: 1970mk
      What is the number of tanks of the USSR in the Western districts .... and the number of tanks of Germany ..

      Why tanks, and not, say, cars? :)))))))))))) I thought that the misconception to measure the strength of the army by the number of tanks has long been eliminated. And you manage not even the strength of the army, you managed to measure the aggressiveness of the government in tanks :)
      1. mat-vey 14 March 2020 05: 23 New
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        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

        Why tanks, and not, say, cars? :))))))))))))

        And they still don’t want to count the shells for these tanks (almost complete absence of armor-piercing shells), but for some reason gasoline-kerosene is not considered a problem.
        1. ser56 19 March 2020 12: 36 New
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          Quote: mat-vey
          And they still don’t want to count the shells for these tanks (almost complete absence of armor-piercing shells), but for some reason gasoline-kerosene is not considered a problem.

          and is it the Germans or the West to blame? Or not the qualifications of the leadership of the USSR and the Red Army?
          1. mat-vey 19 March 2020 14: 15 New
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            Quote: ser56
            Or not the qualifications of the leadership of the USSR and the Red Army?

            Do you believe in wizards?
            1. ser56 19 March 2020 15: 29 New
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              Quote: mat-vey
              Do you believe in wizards?

              no, I also do not believe in the ability of illiterate revolutionaries to control an army or a state ... hi
              1. mat-vey 19 March 2020 15: 37 New
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                Vaaasche not clear .. Or wizards in the end helped in the Second World War to win, or?
  • Engineer 13 March 2020 13: 31 New
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    Gods what nonsense

    The Union was preparing for war and planned the war. It is a fact. Defensive or offensive is another matter.
  • Gardamir 13 March 2020 10: 42 New
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    It’s clear about the West. In Russia, why is hatred for everything Soviet cultivated? How do the same people celebrate Victory Day and tirelessly spit in the past?
  • Doctor 13 March 2020 12: 19 New
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    It is interesting that the red dictator would do with Samsonov if he called him a red dictator? laughing
    1. 1970mk 13 March 2020 14: 16 New
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      Sorry, I didn’t look. This is a reading of a fantasy inventor Samsonov .... I would generally keep silent))
  • Operator 13 March 2020 13: 52 New
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    Stalin believed or did not believe in the German attack on the USSR in 1941 was irrelevant. The military-political leadership of the Soviet Union is to blame for something else:
    - did not fully deploy a cover army in the western military districts by the beginning of the summer of 1941;
    - showed unprofessionalism in deploying already deployed units of the covering army (within the limits of artillery and enemy aviation from the territory of neighboring countries);
    - dismantled weapons on the old line of defense (Stalin's line), without creating a new one before that.
  • ser56 13 March 2020 15: 21 New
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    God, what nonsense ... request
    “For example, when, under Alexander the First, the Russians fought with the French, having no fundamental contradictions with them,” I understood that the passage of Napoleon Neman is not a problem for the Russians ... bully
    "and he did his best to avoid a situation where Russians became cannon fodder for Europeans."
    and achieved the exact opposite - the USSR bore the brunt of 2MB in Europe, unlike 1MB ... is the author simply stupid or does not know the facts? request
    "The Japanese were stunned by the new military power of the industrial USSR (Khalkhin-Gol), then by the non-aggression pact with Berlin. As a result, Tokyo decided to launch a strategic offensive first in the south, attack the United States, Britain and other Western powers,"
    you listen to the author, so the USSR was industrially more powerful than the United States and the British Empire combined .... crying
    "When England and France refused, the Kremlin entered into a non-aggression pact with Berlin."
    and then contract about friendship and border ... request
    "our ancestral lands: Western Belarus, Western Little Russia, Bessarabia, the Baltic states, Karelia. "
    Congratulations, the author made a scientific discovery! bully even 2 - historical and geographical ... bully The author’s stupid question is when did Western Ukraine (Volyn and Galicia) enter into Russia?
    "England and France, despite the fact that they were already officially at war with Hitler's Reich, were preparing to enter the war on the side of Finland." Or maybe because they thought that the USSR was an ally of Hitler? request I note that the independence and borders of Finland were given by the Bolsheviks ... request
    "At first, imperialist predators grabbed each other." Hitler seized the resources of almost all of continental Europe and we had to fight with a united Europe ... and the author considers this a victory ... request
    1. 1970mk 13 March 2020 16: 17 New
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      I note that the independence and borders of Finland were given by the Bolsheviks ...

      Sorry ... You are wrong .... The Bolsheviks did not give anything ... They simply could not take power there ..
      1. ser56 14 March 2020 16: 11 New
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        Quote: 1970mk
        Sorry ... You are wrong .... The Bolsheviks did not give anything.

        Not at all - Finland's independence was recognized by the Bolsheviks in December 1917 request
        Quote: 1970mk
        They just couldn't get there

        This is not the basis, Bessarabia was occupied for 20 years ...
        1. 1970mk 14 March 2020 22: 54 New
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          They recognized))) They got there from the Finns to the fullest ..... Thanks to which Finland is Finland .... and the standard of living in it is not comparable with the Russian. Well done ... People!
          1. ser56 16 March 2020 14: 13 New
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            Quote: 1970mk
            and the standard of living in it is not comparable with the Russian.

            this is a consequence of Bolshevism in Russia request
            1. 1970mk 16 March 2020 14: 26 New
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              You are mistaken! And in the absence of the Bolsheviks, it was incredibly better for the Finns to live there ... There was no serfdom. Finns of peasants were not taken into the army ... Complete tax relief, etc.
              If we compare with the USSR, then in the 70s the level of inequality was much lower among the population "here and there" ... By the way, the Bolsheviks were blown away 30 years ago, and this difference now is WITHOUT-not in our favor.
              1. ser56 17 March 2020 11: 04 New
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                Quote: 1970mk
                You are mistaken!

                Only you ... after 1917 returned to the level of 1913 by 1960 ... request Well, look at the shops and prices now and in the USSR ... request
                Quote: 1970mk
                and this difference is now WITHOUT- not in our favor.

                have you been abroad for a long time? hi we have already caught up and overtaken part of Europe, which was not the case under the USSR ... request
                1. 1970mk 17 March 2020 19: 16 New
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                  Who is "We" -that is. "You" ... In Fink, I was ten times .... The roads are "not ours" ... The benefits are not ours ... ZP is not ours ... In the poorest country of the EU, Spain was - was that we overtook them? Tens of millions in the country for 12-15-20t.r. work! Not in Spain!
                  1. ser56 18 March 2020 12: 18 New
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                    Quote: 1970mk
                    Spain's poorest EU country was

                    Spain is not the poorest EU country bully
                    Quote: 1970mk
                    Who is "We" -that is. "You".

                    we are Russia, and I don’t know who you are ....
                    Quote: 1970mk
                    I’ve been to Fink about ten times .... Roads "not ours" ... Benefits are not ours ... ЗП are not ours ..
                    prices too .. would not have lived as a tourist over a hill - maybe that they understood ....
                    Quote: 1970mk
                    Tens of millions in the country for 12-15-20t.r. work!

                    I have not seen such .. go to any job search site ...
                    1. 1970mk 19 March 2020 08: 13 New
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                      You are sick? So go to the website of the state employment service ..... Example-Ulyanovsk region:
                      https://ulyanovsk-zan.ru/statistics/index
                      Ivanovo region:
                      https://ir-center.ru/sznregion/ivanov/cznivanovo.asp?rn=%C8%E2%E0%ED%EE%E2%EE&ActivityScopeNoStandart=True&SearchType=1&Region=37&Okato=44093&HideWithEmptySalary=False&ShowOnlyWithEmployerInfo=False&ShowOnlyWithHousing=False&Sort=5&PageSize=0&SpecialCategories=False&Grid-sort=&Grid-page=1&Grid-pageSize=100&Grid-group=&Grid-filter=
                      And so on ... Novgorod, Pskov, Vladimir .... etc.
                      You and Putin live in one Russia, the people in another ...
                      1. ser56 19 March 2020 12: 01 New
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                        Quote: 1970mk
                        You are sick?

                        I recommend to learn Russian ... hi
                        Quote: 1970mk
                        Ivanovo region:

                        the wage levels you specify for low-skilled workers ...
                        Quote: 1970mk
                        You and Putin live in one Russia, the people in another ...

                        if you want to get more - lift your ass:
                        Here are the data from Yekaterinburg:
                        https://ekb.zarplata.ru/?from=e1.ru&utm_source=e1.ru&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=main&utm_content=partnerz
  • 1536 14 March 2020 09: 20 New
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    If you do not have money, you try to earn it. If you have money, you try to save it. By the beginning of the 1940s, it became clear that the USSR by the 1950s in terms of production and living standards of people would surpass all of Western Europe. And if Hitler and his Nazi half-educated people are removed in Germany, and the alliance of Germany and Russia becomes a reality, and not a paper-pact agreement, then Tryndets will come, oh God, and ... America itself. No, she will not drown in two oceans at once, she will simply fade into the background and return to the state that, in principle, she deserves, i.e. to the status of the colonial possessions of Britain. And then the world would be different. How could this be allowed? Of course not. So who unleashed the Second World War, who pushed the possessed Fuhrer to attack the USSR in 1941? Questions for which, alas, there is no answer?
  • VS
    VS 14 March 2020 12: 25 New
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    "" Why did not Stalin believe that Hitler would attack in 1941? The red emperor had several reasonable grounds. First, England and the United States needed a war between Germany and Russia. London warned Moscow of a possible Hitler attack. However, the dates were different, time passed and it became clear that this was a mistake or malicious intent. ""

    Well, what kind of nonsense is ((((
  • Tomich3 14 March 2020 17: 26 New
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    The author would write agitation in the 20-30 years of the last century.
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