Military Review

Was a German sword forged in the USSR?

105
After the collapse of the USSR, our home-grown fans of the West, considering the Union as an "empire of evil", began to ascribe to the Soviet regime all conceivable and unthinkable sins. In particular, a whole layer of myths was created about the guilt of Stalin and the Bolsheviks in the outbreak of World War II. Among these "black myths" that destroy our historical memory and shrines, there was a myth that "the fascist sword was forged in the USSR."


Was a German sword forged in the USSR?

2nd Commander tank group Colonel General Heinz Guderian


Thus, the Stalinist empire was presented as the “smithy of the Nazi army,” when German pilots and tankers were trained in the USSR. Even the big names of German military leaders such as Goering and Guderian, allegedly trained in Soviet schools, were called.

At the same time, a number of important facts are omitted. In particular, when the Soviet-German military cooperation began, the Third Reich simply did not exist! 1922-1933 was the time of the completely democratic Weimar Republic, with which Moscow collaborated. At the same time, a strong communist party and socialists acted in Germany, which inspired hope for the future victory of socialism in Berlin. And the Nazis were then a marginal group in which they did not see the threat.

Motives for cooperation


The fact was that Germany and Russia suffered the most from the First World War, were losers. In this case, the Germans in the conditions of the Versailles political system were very limited in the military, military-technical sphere.

The question also arises: who studied with whom? Germany in 1913 was the second industrial power in the world (after the United States), was an industrial, technological giant. And Russia was an agro-industrial country, which was dependent on advanced Western technologies. Almost all complex machines and mechanisms, such as machine tools and steam locomotives, were imported into the country. The First World War very well showed the entire degree of backwardness of Russia and from the advanced powers of the West. So, if the Second Reich during the war produced 47,3 thousand combat aircraft, then Russia - only 3,5 thousand. Things were even worse with the production of engines. In peacetime, Russia practically did not produce aviation motors. The war forced the creation of the production of aircraft engines. In 1916, about 1400 aircraft engines were produced, but this was very small. And the allies, engaged in emergency reinforcement of their Air Force, tried not to share engines. Therefore, even the aircraft built in Russia could not be lifted into the air, there were no engines. As a result, the Germans dominated the air.

Things were even worse with tanks. This type of weapons in pre-revolutionary Russia was never put into production. The first Soviet tank "Freedom Fighter comrade Lenin, "copied from the French tank Renault, would have been released by the Krasnoye Sormovo plant in Nizhny Novgorod only in 1920 and adopted for service in 1921. After that, there was a long pause in the Soviet machine-tool industry - before 1927, Germany in October 1917 launched the heavy tank A7V, which took part in battles and several other prototypes.

Also, Russia greatly lost to Germany by the availability of qualified personnel, scientific and technical personnel. Compulsory secondary education was introduced in Germany as early as 1871. In Russia, on the eve of the 1917 revolution, most of the population was illiterate.

Plus world war, revolution, brutal Civil War and intervention, mass emigration and devastation, the consequences of which Russia overcame most of the 20-s. Moscow was in international isolation. It is clear that under such conditions we had to learn from the Germans, and only they could teach us anything useful. The rest of the Western powers saw in Russia the prey, the “pie” that needed to be gutted. The West demanded the payment of royal debts and debts of the Provisional Government, to take responsibility for all losses from the actions of the Soviet and previous governments or local authorities, to return all nationalized enterprises to foreigners, to provide access to Russia's resources and wealth (concessions).

Only deceived, humiliated and robbed Germans could become our partners. Unlike other Western powers, Germany did not insist on the return of debts. An agreement with Berlin was concluded through a mutual rejection of claims. Germany recognized the nationalization of German state and private property in Soviet Russia. For Soviet Russia, which lagged behind the advanced countries by 50-100 years, cooperation with an industrial and technologically advanced country was vital.

The Germans were also interested in such cooperation. According to the Treaty of Versailles of 28 on June 1919, defeated Germany was subject to severe military restrictions. The German army (Reichswehr) was reduced to 100 thousand people, officers should have been no more than 4 thousand people. The General Staff was dissolved and banned from having. The general conscription was canceled, the army was completed by voluntary recruitment. It was forbidden to have heavy weapons - artillery in excess of the established caliber, tanks and military aircraft. The fleet was limited to several old ships, the submarine fleet was banned.

Unsurprisingly, in such a situation, the two loser powers, rogue states, reached out to each other. In April 1922, at the Genoa Conference, Germany and Russia signed the Rapallo Agreement, which provoked a sharp disapproval of the “world community”.

Thus, the choice in favor of Germany was quite obvious and reasonable. Firstly, the then Germany was a completely democratic state, the Nazis had not yet come to power and generally had no influence on the country's politics. Secondly, Germany was a traditional economic partner of Russia. The German state, despite the severe defeat, remained a powerful industrial power with developed mechanical engineering, energy, chemical industry, etc. Cooperation with the Germans could help us in the restoration and development of the national economy. Thirdly, Berlin, unlike other Western powers, did not insist on paying off old debts, recognized the nationalization in Soviet Russia.

Military cooperation. Lipetsk Aviation School


The Rapallo Treaty did not contain military articles. However, the foundations for mutually beneficial Soviet-German military cooperation were obvious. Berlin needed proving grounds to test tanks and planes without the knowledge of the victorious powers. And we needed German advanced experience in the production and use of advanced weapons. As a result, in the middle of the 1920-s, a number of joint facilities were created in the USSR: an aviation school in Lipetsk, a tank school in Kazan, two aerochemical stations (training grounds) - near Moscow (Podosinki) and in the Saratov region near Volsk.

The agreement on the establishment of an aviation school in Lipetsk was signed in Moscow in April 1925. In summer, the school was open for training of flight personnel. The school was led by German officers: Major Walter Star (in 1925-1930), Major Maximilian Mar (1930-1931) and Captain Gotlob Muller (1932-1933). The flight business was taught by the Germans. As the educational process developed, the number of German personnel grew to 140 people. Moscow provided an airfield in Lipetsk and a former factory for storing aircraft and aviation materials. The machines themselves, aircraft parts and materials were provided by the Germans. The base of the fleet was Fokker D-XIII fighters purchased in the Netherlands. At that time it was a pretty modern car. Transport aircraft and bombers were also purchased. The Fokker company, after the Versailles Agreement, was urgently transferred to Holland. During the Ruhr crisis of 1922-1925 caused by the occupation of the "industrial heart" of Germany by the Franco-Belgian forces, the German military illegally purchased 100 aircraft of different models. Officially for the Argentine Air Force. As a result, some of these aircraft appeared in the USSR.

The creation of the school was beneficial to the USSR. Our pilots, mechanics trained in it, workers improved their qualifications. Pilots were given the opportunity to learn various new tactics known in Germany, England, France and the United States. The country received a material base. The main expenses were borne by the Germans. Thus, contrary to myth, it was not we who taught the Germans, but the Germans, who prepared their own and our pilots with us for their money. Along with our mechanics, introducing to the advanced technical culture. It is also worth dispelling the myth that the fascist sword was forged in the USSR. The contribution of the Lipetsk school to the creation of the German Air Force was small. Throughout its existence, 120 fighter pilots and 100 observer pilots were trained or retrained in it. For comparison: by the 1932, Germany was able to train about 2000 pilots in its illegal flight schools in Braunschweig and Rechlin. The school in Lipetsk was closed in 1933 (as well as other projects), after Hitler came to power, when the Rapallo Agreement lost its significance for Germany and the USSR. The buildings and a significant part of the equipment received the Soviet side. Since January 1934, the Air Force Higher Flight and Tactical School (VLTSH) began to operate on the basis of the liquidated facility.

It is worth noting that the future Reich Marshal Goering did not study in Lipetsk. As an active participant in the famous “beer coup” in 1923, Goering fled abroad. He was convicted in absentia by a German court and declared a state criminal. Therefore, his appearance at the Reichswehr site was a very strange phenomenon. In addition, after the First World War, Goering, as a famous ace, was offered to join the Reichswehr, but he refused for ideological reasons, since he was in opposition to the Weimar Republic.


Fighters Fokker D.XIII in Lipetsk. Source: https://ru.wikipedia.org


Tank school in Kazan and the Tomka chemical facility


An agreement on its creation was signed in 1926. The school was created on the basis of the Kargopol cavalry barracks. The conditions under which the Kazan school was created were similar to Lipetsk. The head and teachers are Germans, but they incurred basic material expenses. The heads of the school were Lieutenant Colonel Mulbrant, von Radlmeier and Colonel Joseph Harpe. Training tanks were provided by the Germans. In 1929, 10 tanks arrived from Germany. First, the teaching staff was trained, then the training of German and Soviet cadets began. Before the school was closed in 1933, three graduations of German students were made - a total of 30 people, on our part, 65 people were trained.

Thus, the Germans taught, they also borne the basic material costs, prepared the material base. That is, the Germans trained their own and our tankers with their money. Guderian, contrary to the myth common in the 1990 years, did not study at the Kazan school. Heinz Wilhelm Guderian really once visited Kazan (in the summer of 1932), but only as an inspector with his boss, General Lutz. He could not study at the tank school, since he had already graduated from the military academy and had a large rank - lieutenant colonel.

An agreement on joint aerochemical tests was signed in 1926. The Soviet side provided the landfill and provided the conditions for its work. The Germans took upon themselves the training of Soviet specialists. They incurred basic material expenses, bought all the equipment. Moreover, if in aviation and tank facilities the emphasis was on training, in the field of military chemistry, research tasks were mainly pursued. Initial tests were carried out near Moscow at the Podosinki training ground.

In 1927, construction work was carried out at the Tomka chemical test site in the Volsk region of the Saratov Region. Joint tests were transferred there. Chemical attack methods were being worked out, new sights created by the Germans, and means of protection were tested. These tests were very useful for the USSR. After all, in this area I had to start almost from scratch. As a result, the country was able in less than 10 years to create its own chemical troops, organize a scientific base, and establish chemical production weapons and remedies. New ammunition equipped with mustard gas, phosgene and diphosgene was adopted, remote chemical shells and new fuses, new air bombs were tested.

Thanks to Germany, our country, which in the 1920s was weakened, mainly an agrarian country, was able to get up to speed with chemical armies on a par with the armies of leading world powers. A whole galaxy of talented military chemists has appeared in the USSR. It is not surprising that during the Great Patriotic War the Third Reich did not dare to use chemical weapons against the USSR.

Germany helped make the USSR the foremost military power


Thus, as a result of the implementation of Soviet-German military projects, the Red Army received qualified personnel of pilots, mechanics, tank crews and chemists. And when, after the Nazis came to power, joint projects were closed, the Germans, leaving, left us with a lot of valuable property and equipment (in millions of German marks). We also received first-class educational institutions. The Higher Flight and Tactical School of the Red Army Air Force was opened in Lipetsk, and a tank school in Kazan. In “Tomsk” a chemical testing ground, part of the property went to the development of the Institute of Chemical Defense.

In addition, cooperation with the Germans in the development of modern weapons was very important. Germany was the only channel for us through which we could study the achievements in military affairs abroad, learn from the experience of German specialists. So, the Germans gave us about a dozen instructions on conducting military operations in the air. The German aircraft designer E. Heinkel, by order of the Soviet Air Force, developed the HD-37 fighter, which we adopted and released in 1931-1934. (I-7). Heinkel also built for the USSR a naval reconnaissance officer He-55 - KR-1, which was in service until 1938. The Germans built for us aircraft catapults on ships. German experience was used in the construction of tanks: in the T-28 - the suspension of the Krupp tank, in the T-26, BT and T-28 - the welded hulls of German tanks, surveillance devices, electrical equipment, radio equipment, in the T-28 and T-35 - internal placement crew in the bow, etc. German successes were also used in the development of anti-aircraft, anti-tank and tank artillery, underwater fleet.

As a result, we can safely say that it was Germany that helped us create the advanced Red Army. The Germans taught us, not we them. The Germans helped lay the USSR the foundations of an advanced military-industrial complex: tank, aviation, chemical and other industries. Moscow intelligently and skillfully used the difficulties of Germany in the development of the Union and its defenses.
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  1. Far B
    Far B 6 September 2019 05: 05 New
    +18
    Thus, contrary to myth, it was not we who taught the Germans, but the Germans, who prepared their own and our pilots with us for their money.
    Normal approach, quite pragmatic. In conditions of total (almost) isolation, they were able to find an opportunity. Only five years after the end of the Civil War. Well done. It would be up to the Bolsheviks to learn how to find opportunities in a practically hopeless situation, otherwise they have been building capitalism for thirty years, and all kind of crap is being built.
    It is not surprising that during the Great Patriotic War the Third Reich did not dare to use chemical weapons against the USSR.
    In fairness, gas was still allowed into the Kerch catacombs.
    1. vladimirZ
      vladimirZ 6 September 2019 07: 25 New
      +7
      It would be up to the Bolsheviks to learn how to find opportunities in a practically hopeless situation, otherwise they have been building capitalism for thirty years, and all kind of crap is being built. - Far B (Michael)

      So capitalism is "crap" created not for the state of the whole people, but for a handful of capitalists for the sake of gaining and robbing the people.
      Therefore, they are not going to learn from the Bolsheviks to create a strong, strong state, they do not need it. Their goal is to plunder the people and resources of the country as long and as long as possible, transporting "acquired by overwork" to Western countries to families, children, to buy palaces and yachts there. They never connected their future and do not connect with Russia.
      1. Nasrat
        Nasrat 6 September 2019 08: 59 New
        +11
        Germany helped make the USSR the foremost military power.


        Not only Germany ... the United States since 1928 laid the foundations for the defense industry in our country .. it was the Americans who helped to carry out the same industrialization ... the same Stalingrad, Chelyabinsk, Nizhne Tagil, Kuznetsk factories were built under the guidance of American engineers .. Moreover, the project The Stalingrad Tractor Plant, which was considered as a tank plant from the very beginning, is being implemented by Albert Kan Incorporated in record time - building constructions are made in the USA, transported to the USSR and mounted within six months. As a result, the next order is the project of the giant Chelyabinsk Tractor Tank Plant. And in February 1930, the Construction Association of the Supreme Economic Council of the USSR concluded a new agreement, according to which Albert Kan Incorporated became the chief designer and consultant of the Soviet government on industrial construction. According to the agreement, in May 1930, a group of about forty Albert Kan Incorporated employees came to Moscow and the American model of design organization was taken as the basis for the formation of a nationwide system of design business in the USSR.

        In America, the company Albert Kan Incorporated employed about 400 employees, but the unique design technology developed in it, which made it possible to reduce the time required to develop design documentation for industrial facilities by a factor of ten, is tightly connected with the name of Albert Kahn alone. Thanks to this technology, after the termination of the contract with the USSR, during World War II (1941), the company Albert Can Incorporated designed the largest aviation plant for bombers in one month! From the beginning to the end! With all the details! In these incredible periods, it is probably impossible to carry out a similar amount of work today.
      2. AU Ivanov.
        AU Ivanov. 6 September 2019 09: 06 New
        -10
        Swedes, Danes, etc. also have capitalism. Unfolded facing a person. In which people live much better than under socialism. And there is socialism of the North. Korea or Cuba. Turned to a man by an ass.
        1. Erik
          Erik 7 September 2019 00: 34 New
          +5
          Is beaten off surplus value from the capitalists automatically-capitalism with a human face?))
          1. AU Ivanov.
            AU Ivanov. 7 September 2019 18: 48 New
            -1
            If surplus value is directed to the social sphere, then yes.
        2. zenion
          zenion 10 September 2019 18: 05 New
          +5
          There has never been and never will be capitalism with a human face. How prostitution cannot be a guide to how to make children.
    2. Olgovich
      Olgovich 6 September 2019 09: 06 New
      -20
      Quote: Far In
      In conditions of total (almost) isolation, they were able to find an opportunity. Only five years after the end of the Civil War. Well done.

      To revive the rogue state, which has just treacherously attacked all our neighbors, our country and brought death to millions of our citizens, these are "well done", yes. fool
      And, which is characteristic, very "far-sighted":: in 1941 the revived Germany AGAIN came here, with almost the same goals.

      Of course, the revival of German industry is, first of all, the merit of Western loans (they brought very large profits to creditors).

      But the help of the Bolsheviks can hardly be overestimated: they were the FIRST, reaching out to an outcast. How did they breathe a second life in Germany and in WWI Brest betrayal and the Rappal Treaty continued this tradition.

      By article:
      The fact was that Germany and Russia suffered the most from the First World War, were losers.

      How an author presents a member's loss winners Entente .... loser? belay
      There is NOT A SINGLE document about Russia's "loss" (Brest betrayal, except for the occupiers and national traitors, no one recognized, and then they canceled it)
      Almost all complex machines and mechanisms, like machine tools and steam locomotives.

      False: Russia is the WORLD LEADER in the mass production of steam locomotives, and steam locomotives with ADVANCED technologies
      Things were even worse with the production of motors.

      Again cunning: what about the DIESELS that Russian engineers taught to work on oil, for which they started calling diesel in Europe "Russian diesel"? And whose mass production was deployed specifically in Russia? 70% of the world's ships (and the world's first diesel electric ship) are Russian ships of domestic projects and buildings with domestic engines. Like the world's first diesel submarine. Project Bars submarine served until .... 1955, in all respects ahead of the much later "Pike."

      Only cheated, humiliated and robbed Germans

      Interestingly, about the Germans after 1945, the author will also say so? But nothing has changed, the same aggressors with the same goals. And the lands of Germany "robbed" after 1945 more than after the WWII

      And when, after the Nazis came to power, joint projects were closed, the Germans, leaving, left us a lot of valuable property and

      In fact: the release of several dozen German pilots and tankers in the USSR, of course, did not play any practical role in restoring Germany's military power, just as the scanty equipment left did not play a significant role.
      Significant was a commodity loan of 200 million marks, given by Germany after 1939, but the USSR also gave it only 865 thousand tons of oil, which was severely deficient for the Germans ...
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 6 September 2019 09: 48 New
        +12
        Like the world's first diesel submarine

        French diesel submarine Aigrette. 1904 year.
        The world's first diesel submarine was the French Aigrette, laid down on May 13, 1902 at the Toulon shipyard. Launched on February 24, 1904, included in the fleet on May 13, 1908. The Lamprey bookmark was held on September 6, 1906, launching on October 11, 1908.
        The Lamprey was the first diesel submarine in Russia and the first submarine in the world to install a reversible diesel engine.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 6 September 2019 10: 18 New
          +12
          world's first diesel electric ship - “Vandal” was really built in Russia (although the French dispute this issue). Designed by Vandal was an Austrian engineer. The power plant was manufactured in Sweden (diesel engines - (Aktiebolaget Diesels Motorer, electric transmission - ASEA).
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 6 September 2019 10: 57 New
            +9
            So the minusers arrived. And specifically, can you object?
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 6 September 2019 15: 16 New
              +4
              Viktor Nikolaevich, I corrected your karma a little! drinks
              Guderian, contrary to the myth common in the 1990s, did not attend Kazan school.

              but there is one place where he was, but which Russian Wikipedia does not mention. Let's give the floor to Kenneth Maxi:
              In 1929, Guderian, together with Gretel, traveled to Sweden through Denmark. <.......> In Sweden, Guderian visited a tank battalion equipped with M-21 tanks of German origin. He personally drove the tank, appreciating its strengths and weaknesses, and was present at small exercises in which tanks advanced under cover of a smoke screen and in interaction with other military branches. The design of the M-21 was replete with many shortcomings, however, the experience gained by Guderian on this tank marked another turning point in his career. He probably overly dramatizes his conclusions when he says that it was in 1929 that he was convinced that tanks, acting alone or in conjunction with the infantry, could never achieve a decisive advantage, since reading his earlier lecture notes and articles would never you come to the conclusion that Guderian was convinced of the possibility of a successful tank battle without the support of other types of troops. However, that year he drew up a scenario for a future battle and presented it at a meeting at the General Staff and at the training ground. In the summer of 1929, he directed field divisional exercises, in which a combat group from units of all military branches participated, which an armored division could deploy. In this, Guderian followed the path paved by the British, and now both Americans and Russians were following the Germans along with them.
              this tank is Stridsvagn fm / 21. In fact, a German copy of the British "Whippet", just with a tower.
          2. Olgovich
            Olgovich 6 September 2019 11: 25 New
            0
            Quote: Undecim
            The world's first diesel-electric ship, the Vandal, was actually built in Russia (although the French dispute this issue).

            they dispute the primacy of the first motor ship (the diesel rotates the shaft directly), and the primacy of the diesel electric ship (where the electric motors drive through the generators from the diesel engine), as far as I know, is not disputed by anyone,
        2. Olgovich
          Olgovich 6 September 2019 11: 07 New
          -3
          Quote: Undecim
          French diesel submarine Aigrette. 1904 year.
          ,

          Who caresimmediately exploded in 1904 g, bad sample?
          Apparently, this is about held project, therefore:
          https://topwar.ru/148886-minoga-pervaja-v-mire-dizel-jelektricheskaja-podvodnaja-lodka.html
          October 11, 1908 in St. Petersburg launched world's first diesel-electric submarine - it was submarine of the lamprey project
          .
          Moreover, unlike the Frenchman, where they stood ... German diesels (lapotny francs recourse ), on a Russian boat were RUSSIAN diesels
          But what about the “non-bonnet” leaders? British DEPL D-1 and Swedish No. 2 (1911). Next come the Italian “Medusa” and the American E-1 (1912); German U — 19 (1913); Danish Havmanden and Dutch 0-2 (1914); Japanese No. 14 and Austrian U-20 (1917)
          lapotnye ... Germans request .
          Quote: Undecim
          which installed reversible diesel engineb.

          And where for the first time in the world it was invented and created and installed? In Russia.
          Like the RUSSIAN DIESEL, which worked, unlike the German oil
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 6 September 2019 12: 27 New
            +13
            Who cares, immediately exploded in 1904, an unsuccessful sample
            Olgovich, do not try to demonstrate your ignorance. In determining the priority, “success” does not matter. And such incidents on submarines of that time often happened, it is enough to recall the accident on the Russian submarine "Dolphin" on May 5, 1905, when a mixture of accumulator gases and fuel vapor exploded and the boat sank.
            By the way, the Lamprey also had problems during the tests and sank during one of the test dives.
            Secondly, in this issue, links to articles from topwar.ru are not at all proof.
            As an educational program, I recommend the excellent book of a submarine officer of the Russian imperial and Soviet fleet, a shipbuilder, a participant in the First World War, the George Knight Grigory Martynovich Trusov
            "The first Russian submarines. Part I."
            And where for the first time in the world it was invented and created and installed? In Russia.
            Olgovic, the first reversible diesel engine, was designed and built in Sweden at Atlas Diesel. The inventor is Jonas Hesselman, who also developed direct injection in 1925. And the first ship with a reversible diesel engine is the Orion schooner.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 6 September 2019 13: 27 New
              -8
              Quote: Undecim
              Olgovich, do not try to demonstrate your ignorance. In determining the priority, “success” does not matter.

              You don’t even have to try yes : French priority "is", but boats ... no (exploded) fool .
              Quote: Undecim
              And such incidents on submarines of that time often happened, it is enough to recall the accident on the Russian submarine "Dolphin" on May 5, 1905, when a mixture of accumulator gases and fuel vapor exploded and the boat sank.

              What does this have to do with ... priority? lol
              Quote: Undecim
              Secondly, in this issue, links to articles from topwar.ru are not at all proof.

              Your assessment of what is evidence and what is not is uninteresting. Who are you? belay lol
              Quote: Undecim
              As an educational program, I recommend the excellent book of a submarine officer of the Russian imperial and Soviet fleet, a shipbuilder, a participant in the First World War, the George Knight Grigory Martynovich Trusov
              "The first Russian submarines. Part I."
              А

              As a napkin, I recommend that you confirm the priority of Russians in diesel submarines - the introduction to the book of the submarine officer of the Russian Imperial and Soviet Navy, shipbuilder, participant in the First World War, George Knight Grigory Martynovich Trusov "The First Russian Submarines. Part I.":
              At that time, the most perfect was the submarine Lamprey ... Its main difference from all existing in Russia and abroad submarines was that. that diesels were used for surface swimming
              .
              Quote: Undecim
              And the first ship with a reversible diesel engine is the Orion schooner.

              Kolomensky Zavod built a towing wheel "Thought" with a diesel engine with a capacity of 300 hp For the first time in the world, an original transmission system with a reverse stroke was developed on board the ship, developed and manufactured by factory specialists according to the design of engineer R.A. Korevo.
              The same reverse marine engine was created in St. Petersburg under the guidance of Professor A. A. Bykov,

              PS Do you understand that France did not claim superiority in diesel electric ships?
              1. Undecim
                Undecim 6 September 2019 14: 26 New
                +8
                Olgovich! I was once again convinced that when you have nothing to object to, you dodge, as you can, and move on to the arguments “And who are you?”, Although in the previous comment they urged us to discuss the article and not the foxes.
                For your information, the French boat was in operation for 14 years and was disassembled in 1914.
                Well, read what a reversible diesel engine is, at least for yourself.
                Good luck and good health.
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 6 September 2019 14: 59 New
                  -7
                  Quote: Undecim
                  You have nothing to argue You dodge as you can and move on to the arguments "And who are you?"

                  1.Undecim, Veciman, Сuriоs or whatever else you are ..... You are absolutely right: you could not argue anything.
                  2. You categorically affirm what can be considered an assessment and what not. Therefore, it is logical and asked: Who are you, what kind of authority? So far, no one. request
                  Quote: Undecim
                  For your information, the French boat has been in operation for 14 years and dismantled it in 1914 year.

                  No, they turned it in for scrap 1920 gbut in 1904 it had to be restored almost anew within .... 4 years.
                  Quote: Undecim
                  Well, read, h t.

                  advice to advice, yes ... lol
                  1. Astra wild
                    Astra wild 6 September 2019 20: 40 New
                    +6
                    Olgovich, and Undesim’s colleague can say with equal success that: “Who are you, what kind of authority?”
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 7 September 2019 08: 30 New
                      -2
                      Quote: Astra wild
                      Olgovich, and Undesim’s colleague can say with equal success that: “Who are you, what kind of authority?”

                      belay
                      Am I making such ANTI-APPEAL statements by Undevit / Curiosa that "NOT an authoritative publication"?

                      It top of disrespect in relation to the resource where you write request
              2. Undecim
                Undecim 6 September 2019 22: 36 New
                0
                Kolomensky Zavod built a towing wheel "Thought" with a diesel engine with a capacity of 300 hp For the first time in the world, an original transmission system with a reverse stroke was developed on board the ship, developed and manufactured by factory specialists according to the design of engineer R.A. Korevo.
                The same reverse marine engine was created in St. Petersburg under the guidance of Professor A. A. Bykov,

                In 1907, according to the Koreyvo project, the towing ship “Thought” was built with power transfer from the engine to the propeller wheels through the Korean pneumatic “Koreyvo coupling” designed by Koreyvo, which, in combination with the gear and valuable gears, allowed the propellers to be reversed, that is, the diesel itself was not reversible, the drive was reverse.
                In a reversible diesel engine, the reversal is carried out not by means of auxiliary transmission mechanisms, but by changing the phases of the air and gas distribution and the moments of fuel supply of the engine itself. In 4-stroke engines, the reverse is carried out using 2 sets of cam washers of air, fuel and gas distribution, which move in the axial direction and together with the camshaft. A similar solution was used by MAN in its 2-stroke diesel engines.
                Under the guidance of Professor A. A. Bykov, in 1908 a reversible diesel engine was actually made, which was installed on the Minoga submarine.
                True, the schooner "Orion" with Atlas Diesel reversible diesel engine was already a year old by the time it was launched.
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 7 September 2019 08: 27 New
                  -4
                  Quote: Undecim
                  In 1907, according to the Koreyvo project, the towing ship “Thought” was built with power transfer from the engine to the propeller wheels through the Korean pneumatic “Koreyvo coupling” designed by Koreyvo, which, in combination with the gear and valuable gears, allowed the propellers to be reversed, that is, the diesel itself was not reversible, the drive was reverse.

                  belay Butter, butter? This was written, ONCE AGAIN:
                  For the first time in the world, the original transmission system with reverse movement
                  Quote: Undecim
                  was reverse drive unit.

                  It is completely launched. request As an educational program:
                  drive mashin - A power device that communicates with the machine the energy needed to operate. The drive usually includes energy source, gear and controls.

                  Remember?
                  Those. ANY diesel is a part of a reverse drive.
                  Quote: Undecim
                  True, the schooner "Orion" with Atlas Diesel reversible diesel engine was already a year old by the time it was launched.

                  True, the tug "Thought" was launched earlier than Orion.
                  1. Undecim
                    Undecim 7 September 2019 09: 07 New
                    +1
                    Olgovich!
                    Your comment cheered me up in the morning! To generate such thoughts with such pathos is something extraordinary. To do this, you must be happy according to Edgar Allan Poe, with which I congratulate you. Good luck!
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 7 September 2019 10: 57 New
                      -2
                      Quote: Undecim
                      Olgovich!
                      Your comment raised my mood in the morning. To generate such thoughts with such pathos is something extraordinary. To do this, you must be happy according to Edgar Poe ,!

                      Undevit, Deceman, Curios or whatever ...

                      You are “happy” according to Plato, for both signs described by him are evident. lol

                      But with by that-Do not congratulate .... request
                2. trahterist
                  trahterist 10 September 2019 19: 56 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Undecim
                  Kolomensky Zavod built a towing wheel "Thought" with a diesel engine with a capacity of 300 hp For the first time in the world, an original transmission system with a reverse stroke was developed on board the ship, developed and manufactured by factory specialists according to the design of engineer R.A. Korevo.
                  The same reverse marine engine was created in St. Petersburg under the guidance of Professor A. A. Bykov,

                  In 1907, according to the Koreyvo project, the towing ship “Thought” was built with power transfer from the engine to the propeller wheels through the Korean pneumatic “Koreyvo coupling” designed by Koreyvo, which, in combination with the gear and valuable gears, allowed the propellers to be reversed, that is, the diesel itself was not reversible, the drive was reverse.
                  In a reversible diesel engine, the reversal is carried out not by means of auxiliary transmission mechanisms, but by changing the phases of the air and gas distribution and the moments of fuel supply of the engine itself. In 4-stroke engines, the reverse is carried out using 2 sets of cam washers of air, fuel and gas distribution, which move in the axial direction and together with the camshaft. A similar solution was used by MAN in its 2-stroke diesel engines.
                  Under the guidance of Professor A. A. Bykov, in 1908 a reversible diesel engine was actually made, which was installed on the Minoga submarine.
                  True, the schooner "Orion" with Atlas Diesel reversible diesel engine was already a year old by the time it was launched.

                  In fairness, Koreywo has one Iron priority in diesel engineering.
                  This is the so-called diesel engine with PDP (Opposite moving pistons).
                  It was he who invented it, and only then the Germans in their Yumo-204, and the Americans on the boat Fairbanks Morse applied this technical solution.
                  It’s a paradox, but the PDP shki still returned to the inventor’s homeland in the form of diesel locomotives 2D100, 10D100, and tank 5TDF, 6TD.
                  Amazing freaks of fate
                  1. Undecim
                    Undecim 10 September 2019 20: 14 New
                    +4
                    No one objects to the fact that Koreyvo developed the first DPS diesel engine (namely diesel). It's just that a person with the nickname olgovich does not understand the difference between a reversing drive and a reversing diesel engine, but is trying to prove something.
      2. strannik1985
        strannik1985 6 September 2019 11: 09 New
        +7
        To the wrong address, there were guarantor countries of the Versailles agreements, they “did not notice” the cessation of reparations, the occupation of the Rhine region, the annexation of Austria, the transition from the Reichswehr to the Wehrmacht, they placed Czechoslovakia and much more at the disposal of Germany. All this was done under the Nazis, while Soviet-German military cooperation ended with Hitler coming to power (except for the period 1939-1941).
        You yourself are compromising in your desire to denigrate the Bolsheviks.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 6 September 2019 12: 02 New
          -7
          Quote: strannik1985
          Not at the address, there were guarantor countries of the Versailles agreements, they "did not notice"

          All sisters are earrings.

          Because Russia was not among the guarantor countries and it could not, therefore. stop arming Germany-thanks Brest betrayal

          -The revival of Germany and its military industry is the result, first of all, of Western loans, is also a fact

          Further, for Germany, the Rappal Treaty with the RSFSR is first treaty after the Versailles peace. The Bolsheviks ... REFUSED there reparations due to Russia by Versailles for the atrocities that they committed in Russia in WWII.
          In addition, both parties recognized the principle of most favored nation as the basis of their legal and economic relations, pledged to promote the development of their trade and economic ties. The German government declared its readiness to assist German firms in developing business ties.

          Let me remind you that we are talking about a country that brought us the most terrible disasters in history.
          Quote: strannik1985
          You yourself compromise yourself in his pursuit.

          belay
          Leave ME alone and discuss- ARTICLE.
          1. strannik1985
            strannik1985 6 September 2019 13: 33 New
            +11
            Thank the Provisional Government and the Petrograd for the Brest Peace, in order to fulfill allied commitments, you need to fight, but the army, as an organized force, was no longer by October 1917. In fact, at the time of the talks in Brest it was about the survival of the new government, there was simply nothing to repel a hypothetical German landing in Finland with a march on Peter.
            Fulfillment of allied obligations does not guarantee preferences, Italy for participating in the war on the side of the Entente promised Macedonia, but after the victory it was rolled.
            The agreement in Rapallo was not concluded with the Nazis.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 6 September 2019 14: 05 New
              -7
              Quote: strannik1985
              Thank the Provisional Government and the Petrograd for the Brest Peace, in order to fulfill allied commitments, you need to fight, but the army, as an organized force, was no longer by October 1917.

              1. It is not up to the Bolsheviks to decide: there is an army, it is not there and whether it is capable of fighting. They are nobody.
              And NOBODY did not allow the Bolsheviks to solve this and did NOT authorize it!

              2. And that weak army that was held the same German troops as in 1916. And the Germans had neither the strength nor the means to simply occupy Russia: see 1918, Kirdyk was.
              Quote: strannik1985
              In fact, at the time of the negotiations in Brest, it was about survival the new authorities

              Yes, to sneeze on the "new" power, not recognized by anyone, RUSSIA is always more important than any power!
              Quote: strannik1985
              there is simply nothing to repel a hypothetical German landing in Finland with a march on Peter.

              Ay-yai-yay: and WHAT would be, huh? belay
              Ahhh, could your rear "heroes" only VP and defenseless fellow citizens could kill? Clear.

              Let me remind you: the Germans occupied Kiev, Minsk, etc. (we got out six months later). What happened? belay
              Nothing, their END was obvious to everyone.

              But a terrible thing happened: the Bolsheviks paid a COUNTRY for the opportunity to retain power that nobody needed. Result see higher.
              Quote: strannik1985
              Fulfillment of allied obligations does not guarantee preferences, Italy for participating in the war on the side of the Entente promised Macedonia, but after the victory it was rolled.

              ALL received, even Romania. As a result of the war, Austria signed the Saint-Germain Peace Treaty. Under the terms of the agreement, South Tyrol, Istria, certain areas of Carinthia and Dalmatia, as well as islands off the Dalmatian coast (with the exception of Fiume Island) became part of Italy. Macedonia did not directly promise, she was wish Italy ..
              1. strannik1985
                strannik1985 6 September 2019 17: 02 New
                +10
                I missed something, Nicholas 2 voluntarily resigned, the February Revolution ceased to be a revolution? If not, then why is it possible for some, but not for others?

                Yes, that same weak army. Do not recall what happened in August 1917?

                In fact, the Red Guard has been created since March 1917, and it is rather reckless to set the task of stopping the German offensive, don’t you?
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 7 September 2019 08: 37 New
                  -6
                  Quote: strannik1985
                  If not, then why is it possible for some, but not for others?

                  It’s just that you need to know the history of YOUR country:
                  1. The chairman of the VP of Lvov ordered the formation of the government EMPEROR. He called to obey him, as did Emperor Michael 2. That is, everything is legal.
                  2. VP was formed including and TIPS. The 1st Congress of Soviets-FULLY supported the VP and CSS.
                  3. The VP overthrew some .... lousy WRC of some one Petrosoviet.
                  4.US overthrew some ... lousy SNK, which was created only ... TO US!

                  The difference is obvious.
                  1. strannik1985
                    strannik1985 8 September 2019 05: 26 New
                    +1
                    How interesting is Nicholas 2 voluntarily surrendered?
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 8 September 2019 07: 01 New
                      -4
                      Quote: strannik1985
                      How interesting is Nicholas 2 voluntarily surrendered?

                      You answered
                      why is it possible for some, but not for others?

                      What is not clear?
                      1. strannik1985
                        strannik1985 8 September 2019 07: 25 New
                        +3
                        Dear, have you lost the thread of the conversation?
                        Who authorized the conspirators to lure the emperor from the Headquarters, to detain them, by deceit and blackmail, to force them to renounce power? Since when have these actions become a legitimate way to change power?
                        The answer is no one, they themselves took it, just like the Bolsheviks in October 1917. The technical details do not matter much, that in February a coup, that in October.
                      2. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 8 September 2019 10: 36 New
                        -4
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Dear, have you lost the thread of the conversation?

                        And what is the "thread"? She is in this:
                        why is it possible for some, but not for others?
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Who authorized the conspirators to lure the emperor from the Headquarters, to detain them, by deceit and blackmail, to force them to renounce power? Since when have these actions become a legitimate way to change power?

                        There was no "conspiracy" of generals. Or bring their meetings, documents, composition BEFORE February 27. Nobody "lured" him, he insisted and left, which was a tragic mistake.
                        He, I think, did not sign the abdication, but when the Manifesto was already published, he decided, in the name of preventing fratricide during the war, to support the EP. Which was done.
                        VP is an absolutely legal and legitimate authority.

                        T.N. WRC and SNK-lower than zero, the criminals who organized a massacre with victims several times larger than the World War they damned.
                      3. strannik1985
                        strannik1985 8 September 2019 11: 31 New
                        +2
                        Ie Nikolay 2 abdicated the throne voluntarily? wink Do I understand you correctly?
                      4. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 8 September 2019 11: 37 New
                        -1
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Ie Nikolay 2 abdicated the throne voluntarily? Do I understand you correctly?

                        I repeat:
                        He, I think, did not sign the abdication, but when the Manifesto was already published, he decided, in the name of preventing fratricide during the war, to support the EP. Which was done.
                      5. strannik1985
                        strannik1985 8 September 2019 12: 35 New
                        +3
                        Dear, are you tired of wagging? laughing
                        Conspirators who were not conspirators had the right to detain and persuade the emperor to recant? Publish a manifest, even if not officially signed?
                      6. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 8 September 2019 13: 17 New
                        -1
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Dear, are you tired of wagging?

                        WHERE did you see the wagging, dear?
                        Persuade - had the right to preserve the monarchy and exclude civil war. Which they did.
                        OFFICIALLY The manifesto was legal, the Emperor appointed the head of Pr-va, then called to obey the VP, as did Mikhail.

                        WHAT IS UNEXPECTED AGAIN? !!
                      7. strannik1985
                        strannik1985 8 September 2019 13: 34 New
                        +3
                        You, dear, you have laughing
                        It turns out to detain and force to renounce called-persuaded good
                        Well, then Zheleznyak "persuaded" the Provisional Government. He voiced his opinion? I had every right to persuade!
                      8. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 8 September 2019 13: 47 New
                        -3
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        It turns out to detain and force to renounce called-persuaded

                        NOBODY detained him, but they had the right to convince.
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Well then Zheleznyak "persuaded" The Provisional Government.

                        And with WHOM I’m talking here, my God!
                        TO SCHOOL! am
                      9. strannik1985
                        strannik1985 8 September 2019 14: 24 New
                        +2
                        Sorry, confused VP with CSS.
                        Convincing in the sense of deceiving? lol For example, a telegram from Alekseev on the night of February 28 to March 1? Where he lied about the fact that in Petrograd everything is fine under the leadership of the Provisional Government.
                      10. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 8 September 2019 14: 29 New
                        -4
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Convincing in the sense of deceiving? For example, a telegram from Alekseev on the night of February 28 to March 1? Where he lied about the fact that in Petrograd everything is fine under the leadership of the Provisional Government.

                        Alekseev was NOT in Petrograd.
                      11. strannik1985
                        strannik1985 8 September 2019 15: 04 New
                        +1
                        So what? It didn't stop to misinform Nikolay. What difference does it make to us if he was a conspirator until February 28 or was he not?
  • ccsr
    ccsr 8 September 2019 10: 26 New
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    To revive the rogue state, which has just treacherously attacked all our neighbors, our country and brought death to millions of our citizens, these are "well done", yes.

    It is you who bring claims against the United States, and not against the USSR - they gave loans after the Second World War to restore Nazi Germany and militaristic Japan.
  • your1970
    your1970 11 September 2019 10: 19 New
    -1
    "These tests were very useful for the USSR. After all, in this area had to start from scratch. "- chemical weapons already existed in the Russian Empire, and there were both means of delivery and means of protection. Here the author is not right ....
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 6 September 2019 05: 15 New
    +3
    "Even the big names of German military leaders like Goering and Guderian, allegedly trained in Soviet schools, were called
    I met a statement that German field marshals graduated from Soviet military schools. My question is: should it be understood that the German field marshal in terms of qualifications corresponded to the Soviet lieutenant, remained unanswered ...
    This topic can be developed a little: the Soviet and American military were repeatedly involved in the preparation of armies in the countries of the "third world", and, it happened, participated in hostilities. Does this mean that the Asian, African, Latin American military trained the Soviet and American? lol
    1. Amurets
      Amurets 6 September 2019 05: 55 New
      +7
      Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
      Even the big names of German military commanders like Goering and Guderian, allegedly trained in Soviet schools, were called
      No, at the tsar's rookie level. At the age of 16, Goering was sent to the Lichterfeld Military Academy in Berlin, which he graduated with honors. Having been educated in 1912, the young man, having reached a height of 178 cm, entered the Prussian infantry regiment of Crown Prince Wilhelm. At the beginning of World War I, Goering filed a motion to transfer the German Empire to the air forces. He was assigned to the FFA 25 team in the 5th Army of the Crown Prince. For reconnaissance and punitive operations, the young pilot was awarded the Iron Cross of the 1st degree.
      Goering went from observer to commander of a flight squadron. He proved himself to be a real ace fighter, having shot down, according to various sources, from 17 to 22 enemy aircraft.
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 6 September 2019 15: 43 New
        +5
        Goering went from observer to commander of a flight squadron. He proved himself to be a real ace fighter, having shot down, according to various sources, from 17 to 22 enemy aircraft.

        well, the appointment of him as the commander of the “Air Circus” also says a lot, no matter how bastard he later became ... Ernst Udet, the second most shotgun aircraft in Germany, also served with him. After the war, in the 20s, Udet makes money at an air show, where he performs ostentatious dive bombing. Goering sees this at one of such shows - thanks to this, Germany under Hitler began to develop the direction of dive bombers. hi
    2. 210ox
      210ox 6 September 2019 06: 15 New
      0
      As for the field marshal and lieutenant, of course not. By the way, did Paulus really lecture at our academy when he was a prisoner?
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 6 September 2019 09: 18 New
        +7
        It seems that Paulus was accused of this in Nuremberg, and he dismissed: that the Russians and their high-level teachers.
        By the way, I met information that Paulus did not die his death, but he was liquidated by former fascists. According to their concepts, he was a traitor to the Fuhrer
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 6 September 2019 18: 25 New
          +4
          Svyatoslav, when asked by the lawyer who defended Jodl, whether Paulus had lectured at the Academy of the General Staff of the USSR, Paulus answered: "In no way and to no one."
          1. your1970
            your1970 11 September 2019 10: 21 New
            0
            Quote: 210ox
            did Paulus really lecture at our academy while being a prisoner?
            -is it worth listening to a battered and war-loser commander?
  • Mikhail Drabkin
    Mikhail Drabkin 6 September 2019 05: 26 New
    +6
    As a result, we can safely say that it was Germany that helped us create the advanced Red Army. The Germans taught us, not we them. The Germans helped lay the USSR the foundations of an advanced military-industrial complex

    “You won’t throw words out of a song, but the Germans taught, helped.”
    —- Probably in some ways this helped in the establishment of the defense industry, but the foundations of the defense industry were in the selfless work of the Soviet people during the five-year plans, the leadership of the USSR — from the secretary general to Stalin’s people's commissars and directors, technical talents, intelligence work.
    —- well, and we should not forget that somewhere with the Germans they remembered somewhere during the purges.
    —- in fact, the Germans were not interested in the formation and development of the Red Army. They primarily thought of themselves. Naturally.
    —- And they looked closely at the “colossus with feet of clay”.
    And the lesson for the present is “Russia has only two allies ....” It would be nice to remember the managers of Yak with 130, and the buyers of Mistral, and engines for the KA-226T, Superjet -100 ....
  • Amurets
    Amurets 6 September 2019 05: 46 New
    +6
    After the collapse of the USSR, our home-grown fans of the West, considering the Union as an "empire of evil", began to ascribe to the Soviet regime all conceivable and unthinkable sins. In particular, a whole layer of myths was created about the guilt of Stalin and the Bolsheviks in the outbreak of World War II. Among these "black myths" that destroy our historical memory and shrines, there was a myth that "the fascist sword was forged in the USSR."
    Here it is interesting in what design bureaus and at what factories? Here is the state of industry in Leningrad, as exemplified by several factories: Brown. Soviet coastal artillery.

    There were several steam-building plants in the Republic of Ingushetia, only in St. Petersburg the steam locomotives produced the Putilov and Nevsky factories, I’m not talking about other plants in Kharkov, Lugansk and others, but then I had to order steam locomotives in Germany and Sweden.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      Edward Vashchenko 6 September 2019 06: 10 New
      +6
      One of the key problems of the 1916 crisis was the transport crisis, with an excellent harvest in 1915 and 1916, due to the lack of delivery vehicles and steam locomotives.
      Putilovsky plant was taken under control in the Treasury, as it could not cope with military orders.
      The involvement of foreign specialists in the creation of modern enterprises in the USSR was, so to speak, "mutually beneficial."
      In the West, there was the Great Depression, and therefore the orders of the USSR were carried out with joy: either go broke or work, there is no other way.
    2. AU Ivanov.
      AU Ivanov. 6 September 2019 08: 31 New
      +1
      Ordering steam locomotives in Germany and Sweden is the decision of the Soviet government. Instead of loading their own capacities and providing work for their citizens, the Bolsheviks decided to order locomotives abroad. For the gold.
      1. naidas
        naidas 6 September 2019 22: 03 New
        +6
        Quote: AU Ivanov.
        Bolsheviks decided to order locomotives abroad

        Well, probably the locomotive factories (7 pieces) were reprofiled:
        -Putilorsky plant manufactures Fordson tractors.
        Kharkov steam locomotive factory manufacturing tracked tractors
        -In 1918, the Nevsky Plant changed its profile to power engineering.
        -Sormovsky, in addition to locomotives and steam locomotives, began to produce tanks.
        - “Profinter” - plows, reapers, drilling equipment, cranes, pneumatic hammers, wagons, steam locomotives, refrigeration equipment and much more. (the level of production of cars remained at the pre-war 66 units in 1913)
        -Kolomensky-a variety of agricultural machinery, tractors, tram motor cars, snowplows, trolleys and other products.
        -Lugansk-locomotive (82 pieces in 1913,75 pieces in 1927), but it seems killed so that reconstruction was required in 1928.
        You could still buy cars, but where will you buy equipment before the Great Depression?
  • anjey
    anjey 6 September 2019 06: 52 New
    +8
    Those who forged and forged a Nazi sword during WWII were many American companies in mechanical engineering, chemical industry, metallurgy, and energy, war was war and profit in business with the enemy was holy, it was not for nothing that the German industrialists in Nuremberg escaped with a light fright, corporate revenue and joint capital with the Americans helped them ...
  • rocket757
    rocket757 6 September 2019 07: 32 New
    +2
    Various facts are pulled out of context, a series of events and twirl them as they need.
    Unfortunately, our tops and next to them gave rise to a lot of reasons that all sorts of “spindles” would spin and build their theories as they .... ordered / paid!
    Dirt, it is sticky, only to a normal, prepared diligently surface sticks weak and is washed off once!
    We do not have such preparation and there is MUCH MUCH here! We hold on to comrades and do our work systematically, without undue fuss and haste! Anyway, the TRUTH will come out with a fresh, all-flushing stream .... you need to work more carefully!
  • Hunghuz
    Hunghuz 6 September 2019 08: 32 New
    -9
    And by the way, there is a fairly authoritative work, which is called the Fascist sword forged in the USSR.
    Quite informative by the way. Which convincingly shows the “fruits” of military-technical cooperation between two interested entities - Germany, which, under the terms of Versailles, could not have many types of weapons and conduct maneuvers and tests of new equipment, and quarrels interested in new technologies. In the years 20-30.
    The Germans tested new types of equipment in schools in the USSR, practiced tactical techniques. Most of their future aces were prepared with us.
    And then all this worked together for us.
    Facts have taken place to be. And they are a stubborn thing.
    1. AU Ivanov.
      AU Ivanov. 6 September 2019 08: 45 New
      +4
      Not a fascist sword was forged. Forged a German sword. This is not the same thing. Germany before Hitler was a state completely friendly to the USSR.
      1. Hunghuz
        Hunghuz 6 September 2019 08: 54 New
        -5
        So in fact he became a fascist sword)
        I went to the Nazi state, which is important.
        All this was visible both in the 20s and in the early 30s, when this cooperation was in full swing.
        and what was going on and where are the legs growing from.
        And the Hindenburgs with the Ludendorffs did not come from the air. In the 20s and early 30s they prepared the Nazis' rise to power, and then they brought them.
        Being friends of the USSR)
        1. AU Ivanov.
          AU Ivanov. 6 September 2019 08: 58 New
          +5
          But not a fact. The chances of the Communists to come to power in Germany were quite high. Now, too: technology and weapons, delivered, at one time, to the same Poland, can be turned against us. It is impossible to peer into the future.
          1. Hunghuz
            Hunghuz 6 September 2019 09: 07 New
            -10
            Germany in the years 20-30 was a potential enemy of the USSR.
            Regardless of the color of the flag.
            And the advanced Soviet military leaders saw this. What will have to play out the unfinished war.
            So the German or fascist sword is not the point. The main thing is that we have contributed to the combat capability of the future enemy. After all, it was not the Angolans who were preparing, but those who always challenged our influence in Europe.
            Here, in my opinion, is the essence of a political mistake. And the point is not even the value of the contribution, but the fact itself. Well, the fact that the Germans won much more than us from such cooperation.
            1. AU Ivanov.
              AU Ivanov. 6 September 2019 09: 34 New
              +3
              In the 20s, Germany could not even think of aggression against the USSR, what kind of adversary there was: huge inflation and unemployment, the lack of a full-fledged army (the Reichswehr’s one hundred thousandth is not an army), idle industry, the occupied Ruhr industrial region, and wild reparations. There was banal survival. Brothers in misfortune, nothing more.
            2. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 6 September 2019 15: 57 New
              +2
              In 1920-30 the whole imperialist world was a potential adversary of the USSR. Germany until 1933 - less than others. As for "we made a contribution to the combat effectiveness of the future enemy," the same must be said about the Germans. And who has benefited more from this is a question. But rather ours than Germans. In general, in world history this phenomenon is the cultivation of allies, turning into enemies, usually.
    2. Snakebyte
      Snakebyte 6 September 2019 14: 29 New
      +4
      Quote: Hunghouse
      Most of their future aces were prepared with us.

      Have you ever read the article? In Lipetsk, as many as 120 fighter pilots were trained. Against 2000 in Germany at the same time. And most of the German aces who took part in the war, at that time still went to school, they learned how to fly pilots under Hitler.
    3. mmaxx
      mmaxx 6 September 2019 15: 39 New
      +4
      I have this book. Read. From it it is completely incomprehensible which sword was forged in the USSR. A set of documents and facts that can be interpreted as you like. Nothing but a name. What could we forge Germans there ??? Tsarist Russia lagged behind Germany forever, and after the civil war .... we had nothing at all for the Germans to fuck from what we would forge or help to forge.
      The conclusions you make are too loud. What kind of aces are there? What time was it before the war? All future aces were children. Their tactics appeared after Spain.
    4. Catfish
      Catfish 6 September 2019 18: 28 New
      +5
      And by the way, there is a fairly authoritative work, which is called the Fascist sword forged in the USSR.


      Excuse me, author, is this case not Suvorov-Rezun?
      1. naidas
        naidas 6 September 2019 22: 09 New
        +4
        Quote: Sea Cat
        Excuse me, author, is this case not Suvorov-Rezun?

        no major biologist - Yuri Leontyevich Dyakov
    5. naidas
      naidas 6 September 2019 22: 08 New
      +5
      Quote: Hunghouse
      And by the way, there is a fairly authoritative work,

      Yes, of course, the author there is a very authoritative doctor of biological sciences, a mycologist, head of the department of mycology and algology of Moscow State University, the fascist sword was forged in the USSR.
    6. your1970
      your1970 11 September 2019 10: 24 New
      +1
      Quote: Hunghouse
      The Germans tested new types of equipment in schools in the USSR, practiced tactical techniques. Most of their future aces were prepared with us.
      -you find out the quantity for a start ... what at that moment when we prepared 120 pilots in other states trained about 2000 flyers. The same thing on tankers
  • BAI
    BAI 6 September 2019 08: 55 New
    +8
    In the 30s, the USSR (Stalin) pursued a brilliant international policy: it split the united front of Western states against the USSR and gained access to technologies absent in the USSR. What ensured the postponement of the war — the USSR was the last to join it (at least in Europe), and they managed to raise the technical level of the army — otherwise they would fight against the tanks with drafts on horses. The only thing that they could not (did not have time) was to raise the level of literacy of the population so that they could manage new complex equipment.
    And on the account of the one who helped fascist Germany - it is appropriate to recall Ford and other American companies.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 6 September 2019 09: 05 New
    -1
    Samsonov, minus you a fool: some historians, such as Shirokorad, wrote: how the Bolsheviks apparently hit their heads, taught the Nazis to capture the whole world. Everything is so all right and suddenly it turns out that the Germans taught Russian
    1. AAK
      AAK 6 September 2019 10: 00 New
      +1
      Well, yes, the future ROA staff was preparing ...
      But in principle, nothing has changed since 1914, there were 2 and 5-6 economies of the world, and they remain so ...
      1. AAK
        AAK 6 September 2019 10: 03 New
        0
        I apologize for the current time - a downgrade of 1 point for both ..
    2. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 6 September 2019 15: 59 New
      +1
      Just think, Suvorov (who is Rezun) wrote that the Bolsheviks ruled the whole world as a puppet theater ... wink
    3. naidas
      naidas 6 September 2019 22: 15 New
      +2
      Quote: vladcub
      Shirokorad

      Alexander Borisovich Shirokorad (born 1947, Moscow) is a modern Russian military specialist, publicist. The author of several dozens of popular science books on artillery and military equipment. His work on technical issues - the field of artillery weapons is recognized as authoritative (Shirokorad is one of the leading specialists in domestic artillery). A number of scholars criticize books on the history of Russia for their overly journalistic appearance, such as copyright infringement, inaccuracies in the information provided, the use of outdated information and distortion, fiction and secondary.
      Quote: vladcub
      balsoa minus

      This is Svyatoslav for you.
  • iouris
    iouris 6 September 2019 12: 33 New
    +3
    Forged. But then the blacksmith Vakula threw forging a German sword with the words: "Ahusim, tomorrow we will dock!"
  • bubalik
    bubalik 6 September 2019 13: 15 New
    +3
    I did not read Igor Pykhalov, although Alexander Samsonov helps in this matter.
  • mmaxx
    mmaxx 6 September 2019 15: 33 New
    +6
    At the time of the beginning of cooperation, there was no Hitler in power. But the USSR and Germany were rogue countries. What are we to repent of? Outcasts of all countries - unite!
  • Nadir shah
    Nadir shah 6 September 2019 15: 51 New
    +7
    If in a nutshell, then no, the German sword in the USSR was not forged. If not in a nutshell, but in three, then neither.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 6 September 2019 18: 44 New
    +3
    German experience was used in the construction of tanks: in the T-28 - the suspension of the Krupp tank, in the T-26, BT and T-28 - the welded hulls of German tanks, surveillance devices, electrical equipment,


    For T-28 I will not say, not in the know. And the T-26 is a British Vickers 6-ton, bought on the vine with all the production technology. BT is an American design Christie, who himself came to the USSR to launch his car in production. And where are the Germans?

    in T-28 and T-35 - the internal placement of the crew in the bow, etc.


    And in other tanks, where was he located, in the ass? That's just about “Whippet” is not necessary ... and about “Merkava”.

    German successes were used in the development of anti-aircraft, anti-tank and tank artillery, submarine fleet.


    One may ask, where did the Germans come up with new developments in anti-aircraft, anti-tank and tank artillery in the twenties?

    As for the submarine fleet, there is nothing to discuss here. In what year did the Germans secretly build their first submarine, either in Denmark or in Holland? Huh?

    The author did not seem to me too competent a person in this matter. And the fact that cooperation was beneficial to both powers is obvious, otherwise they would not have cooperated.
  • Kenxnumx
    Kenxnumx 6 September 2019 19: 19 New
    -8
    If the question is about the GERMAN sword, then the author proved that yes, he was forged
  • colotun
    colotun 6 September 2019 19: 42 New
    -7
    Of course, this German sword was forged in the USSR, without any doubt it was so, about which there are many different
  • Ryaruav
    Ryaruav 6 September 2019 20: 03 New
    +4
    from the results of mechanization and the use of tanks in the first world, the right conclusions were made by the two countries of the ussr and germany, who lost the war, so there were naturally contacts and all the rest was that bad? tanks were forbidden to the Germans well 50 people from Germany rode our tanks among these people there was never a fast Heinz, the idea of ​​mass use of armored vehicles came to us and the Germans at about the same time and we only regret that the Germans introduced it faster than us, to understand this you need to know the difference in the development of these countries, if Germany in 1935 was already recognized by all as one of the leading countries, the USSR was in conditions of rather strict isolation
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 6 September 2019 20: 45 New
    0
    To the specific situation of the 20s, cooperation with the Germans was justified. With the advent of Hitler, it ceased. A separate question on Goering. Lipetsk was not bombed during the war. Allegedly, he had a girlfriend there.
    1. iouris
      iouris 6 September 2019 21: 46 New
      +3
      Goering had a girlfriend in Sweden. Sweden was not bombed. Carlson is Goering.
      1. Pavel57
        Pavel57 7 September 2019 00: 12 New
        +1
        Carlson deducted from Goering, like all his phrases. He was the darling of society there. I haven’t heard about Swedish friends.
    2. Alf
      Alf 6 September 2019 22: 35 New
      +4
      Quote: Pavel57
      A separate question on Goering. Lipetsk was not bombed during the war.

      And Lipetsk was bombed during the Great Patriotic War. And how. Most of all, it was the aerodrome, the seat of the aircraft guarding the sky of the capital of the USSR. And also to Sokolsky plant (he produced mines and grenades). During the bombing killed 328 civilians in Lipetsk and suburban settlements. Therefore, to say that German pilots circled the city out of a feeling of gratitude for studying in it is, at least, stupid.
  • iouris
    iouris 7 September 2019 23: 03 New
    +2
    In the USSR, a sword was forged, which is in the hands of a soldier, who stands in the Treptower Park on a swastika.
  • Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 8 September 2019 12: 07 New
    +1
    That's how V.G. recalled Grabin about his German "teachers" laughing Focht marching loudly typing a step, his head thrown back, shoulders raised, on a thin, bluish after shaving face expression cold and harsh. One of his eyes is glass, but this is difficult to notice, because the living eye has the same expression as the artificial one.

    Voigt speaks only with those on whom a white coat, that is, with his compatriots. There is nothing like politeness in his treatment of them - he at best with a silent nod shows his satisfaction, and expresses displeasure with a cry. At the slightest attempt to object, all endurance leaves him. However, objections are extremely rare - the Germans look at Voigt as a god and, moreover, are very afraid of him.

    Vogt's directions are always categorical, like an order. But one way or another, he led the Germans well. No matter how unpleasant his personality was, I must give him credit: he was an experienced designer, knowledgeable. Focht paid no attention to Soviet engineers, for these people in brown dressing gowns almost did not exist. And what was he talking about with them? They were busy copying, occasionally - working out the most minor details, which is called "meaningful detailing" - obviously in contrast to the "meaningless", which could be successfully done by an ordinary draftsman, but to which Russian designers were riveted from month to month. It was believed that the future designer should draw from 3 to 5 thousand parts before he could be allowed to design small units. If we take this program seriously, it would take six to ten years to implement it. Consequently, Russian engineers would not be directly involved in designing earlier than 1937 or even 1941. These rules were established only for Russian designers.
  • Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 8 September 2019 12: 19 New
    +3
    Thus, the Stalinist empire was presented as the “smithy of the Nazi army,” when German pilots and tankers underwent training in the USSR. Even the big names of German military leaders such as Goering and Guderian, allegedly trained in Soviet schools, were called.

    At the same time, a number of significant facts are omitted. In particular, when the Soviet-German military cooperation began, the Third Reich simply did not exist! 1922-1933 - this is the time for a completely democratic Weimar Republic, with which Moscow collaborated. At the same time, a strong communist party and socialists acted in Germany, which instilled aspirations for the future victory of socialism in Berlin. And the Nazis were then a marginal group in which they did not see the threat.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 8 September 2019 17: 36 New
      +2
      Quote: Gennady Fomkin
      At the same time, a number of significant facts are omitted. In particular, when the Soviet-German military cooperation began, the Third Reich simply did not exist! 1922-1933

      It’s immediately obvious that you well know this material, which our refutators for some reason "do not notice." Especially when you take into account all the Western aid to Germany after Hitler came to power, and the fact that we provided them with the Weimar Republic are generally incomparable values.
  • Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 8 September 2019 12: 27 New
    +3
    In 1933, before the accession of Hitler, the German army numbered 100 thousand people - as Versailles demanded. By September 1939, the Wehrmacht had grown to 4233 thousand soldiers. Forty-two times!

    Military spending has become colossal. From 1933 to 1939 they grew tenfold (from 1,9 to 18,41 billion marks) and ate 58% of the budget. Compare: the USSR spent 1934% of the budget on defense in 9, France and Japan - 8, England - 3. [147]

    Where does the money come from? After all, having come to power, Hitler received a treasury of 83 million marks. This is less than nothing: the annual budget deficit was then 900 million. Germany had no money at all! In addition, there was a tribute: the winners in the First World THREE BILLION had to pay gold stamps of reparations. But money is fine - where did the weapon come from? Who helped the Germans get around the Versailles ban on having tanks and aircraft? Some mutter: USSR! German officers studied with us. Indeed, they studied at three points: a tank school in Kazan, a flight school in Lipetsk, and the chemical object Tomka.
    Heinz Guderian was indeed in Lipetsk passage with inspection laughing
    The joint tank school appeared on October 2, 1926. What does “joint” mean? We gave a piece of land, staff for workshops and security, and the Germans paid for everything and customized tanks made in England and France. Where they took them, we were not worried. As a result, we received the latest samples of foreign equipment for nothing! On its basis they built their own.

    What did the Germans have? The school gave three graduations: in 1929/30 - 10 of their tankers, in 1931/32 - 11 and in 1933 - 9. Total thirty. Judge for yourself how much this helped the Wehrmacht ... laughing laughing laughing
  • Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 8 September 2019 12: 31 New
    +3
    The Lipetsk school graduated more German pilots: 120 fighters and 100 observers. For total war is also ridiculously small.

    How did the Tomka facility help them? And you remember how in the Second World War they used chemical weapons! NO. laughing laughing laughing And now the main thing: in 1933, Hitler took power - and our cooperation with Germany ended! Why? Because the "democratic countries" allowed the Nazis to train pilots and tankers in Germany itself - maliciously violating the Treaty of Versailles.

    And not only allowed, but also the most active helped to arm themselves! Here are the facts.

    “The British company Rolls-Royce handed over to the Nazi government a batch of new Kestrel engines used on combat aircraft. In April 1934, Armstrong-Siddley sold aircraft engines to Germany based on sixteen years of research by British engineers. Aircraft, tanks, machine guns were imported from England to Germany ”

    September 19, 1934 to the Reich from the United States secretly delivered modern equipment for aircraft factories worth 1 million gold dollars.
  • Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 8 September 2019 12: 34 New
    +3
    In 1935, the Anglo-German society appeared, it included Unilever, Dunlop Rabber, the British Steel Export Association and British Petroleum. The famous British manufacturer of guns, armor and warships "Vickers-Armstrong" in the Wehrmacht magazine "Militar-Wochenblatt" advertised their tanks. Vickers shareholders in 1934 demanded guarantees that the corporation did not arm the Reich. The chairman of the company replied: “We do not do anything without the sanction of our government” laughing laughing
  • aleksandaravin
    aleksandaravin 11 September 2019 17: 16 New
    0
    My Lord! Remember Who gave Hitler the Money, or the Dowes-Young Plan! And that’s it !!!
  • Zinoviy
    Zinoviy 15 September 2019 15: 15 New
    0
    Folk wisdom says: "The end is the crown!"
    According to the official version alone, the losses during World War II with fascist Germany amounted to 20 million human lives.
    No one counted how many people died in the rear from inhuman living conditions.
    A few million more people died from the Stalinist repressions.
    Destroyed cities from Moscow to the western borders of the USSR.
    The question is natural: "How many things could be built and created by the working people of the USSR if not for the policies pursued by Stalin?
    1. Zinoviy
      Zinoviy 15 September 2019 15: 34 New
      0
      On what basis?
  • Stas57
    Stas57 24 September 2019 09: 12 New
    0
    I see no problems in this mutual cooperation
  • Asan Ata
    Asan Ata 26 October 2019 21: 42 New
    0
    Thank you! Very interesting!
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 30 November 2019 21: 09 New
    0
    An example from recent times. The technologies of building large military NKs lost since the USSR, we were able (at least partially) to get from France even from the Mistrals that were not received from it. You see, we’ll be able to develop our own DVKs, more adapted to our Navy. A large-body assembly at the shipyard has already been studied.