How Poland unleashed World War II with Hitler

How Poland unleashed World War II with Hitler

Polish Tanks 7TP are included in the Czech city of Tesin


How Poland prepared the great war in Europe. The Polish elite, together with Hitler, sentenced Austria and Czechoslovakia to destruction. Poland betrayed France, preventing her from protecting the Austrians and Czechs.

Polish predator


According to the generally accepted opinion (it was expressed in the indictment of the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal), Germany committed the first aggression when it captured Austria and Czechoslovakia. At the same time, they usually turn a blind eye to the fact that Poland simultaneously acted as an aggressor.

Hitler approved the plan for the capture of Austria (Otto plan) in 1937. According to this plan, Austria was “rocked” and on March 12, 1938, troops were sent there. It seemed that England and France should have intervened. However, London and Paris surrendered Vienna to Hitler. In addition, Paris at the same time was concerned about the behavior of its eastern ally, Poland. The fact was that on the eve of the German troops entering Austria, an incident occurred on the Polish-Lithuanian border. They found someone killed a Polish soldier. Poland rejected the offer of Lithuania to create a joint commission to investigate the case, and blamed Lithuania on this. On March 17, 1938, Poland, with German support, put forward an ultimatum to Lithuania: establish diplomatic, economic, postal and telegraph communications and repeal the constitutional article indicating that Vilnius is the capital of Lithuania, threatening war if rejected. The Lithuanian government was to express its consent within 48 hours, and the accreditation of diplomats will take place before March 31.

The fact was that in 1920, the Poles occupied Vilna (the Lithuanian capital) and the Vilnius region. These lands were annexed to the Second Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and Lithuania refused to admit it. At the same time, the Polish public and the elite believed that it was necessary to annex all of Lithuania. An information campaign was launched in Poland calling for a campaign in Kaunas. The Polish army began preparations for the capture of Lithuania. Berlin supported Warsaw’s plans and stated that he was interested only in Klaipeda in Lithuania.

Thus, in Eastern Europe the threat of war arose. At the same time, Poland acted in synchronism with the Third Reich. In February 1938, Hitler warned the Polish government about the preparation of the Anschluss of Austria. Therefore, the appearance of the corpse of a Polish soldier on the border on the same day with the start of German aggression against Austria is a very significant fact. The Poles did not object to the Anschluss of Austria, and Hitler did not object to the occupation by the Poles of part of Lithuania, except for Klaipeda (Memel) with the region, which were part of the German sphere of interests.

Moscow in this situation was not up to Austria. The threat of the Polish-Lithuanian war arose. On March 16 and 18, the People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs of the USSR called the Polish ambassador and explained to him that Lithuanians should not be offended, and although the USSR does not have a military agreement with Lithuania, it could appear already during the war. At the same time, Moscow advised the Lithuanians to “yield to violence”, since “the international community will not understand the Lithuanian refusal”. In conditions when France also asked Warsaw not to bring the matter to war, Poland had to abandon the war. Between Poland and Lithuania diplomatic relations were established.

It is worth noting that Warsaw set up France as well. The Poles were allies of Paris and staged a provocation that could cause a war not only with Lithuania, but also with the Soviet Union. And at the same time, the Germans invaded Austria. From the very beginning, the French asked the Poles to calm down and help them with the Austrian question. France was afraid of Germany’s gain and even proposed to bring the USSR in case of war with the Germans. Poland was supposed to let the Soviet troops through its territory. And at this time, the official ally of France - Poland, with the full support of the Third Reich, is preparing the capture of Lithuania. Yes, and expresses dissatisfaction with the French, they say, did not support their plans.

The Polish elite did not care about the interests of the allies. It was an old Polish tradition: to step on the same rake. This feature of the Polish elite has been noted more than once. For example, the textbook "Geography of Russia" for secondary schools, published by the 2nd edition of the Sytin partnership in 1914, describes the physical types of the multinational population of the Russian Empire, including Poles. This tutorial notes:

“None of the people, perhaps, had as great class differences as the Poles. The nobility always stood apart from the people (claps), and completely distinct character traits developed in it. “Wealth, idleness (thanks to serfdom), accompanied by continuous entertainment, gave the upper class the features of frivolity, vanity and a love of luxury and brilliance that brought the state to death.”

Virtually nothing has changed in the Second Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, which became the main cause of the September 1939 disaster. Now the Polish elite is again stepping on the same rake. The frivolity and vanity of the elite is destroying Poland.

Dismemberment of Czechoslovakia


Subsequently, Warsaw continued its aggressive policy, assisting Hitler in breaking down the Versailles system in Europe. Hitler in 1937 made the final decision on the division of Czechoslovakia. Before the invasion of Austria, Hitler delivered a keynote speech in the Reichstag in February 1938, where he promised to unite "10 million Germans living across the border." Immediately after the occupation of Austria, Berlin intensified its work on the Sudeten question. At the congress of the pro-fascist Sudeten Party in April 1938 in Karlovy Vary, demands were put forward for the exclusion of a number of border areas from Czechoslovakia and their accession to the Third Reich. Sudeten Germans also demanded that Prague terminate the mutual assistance agreements with France and the USSR. So the Sudeten crisis arose.

Prague expressed its readiness to stand to the end. Czechoslovakia had a strong defense on the border with Germany, a fully operational army. In Czechoslovakia, there was a developed military industry. Czechoslovakia also had a military alliance with France, which gave the Czechs a guarantee against German attack. France had the same alliance with Poland. That is, if this system was activated, then Hitler could not start a big war in Europe. Against then still rather weak Germany, France, England, Poland, Czechoslovakia and the USSR would have acted. The Führer’s plans for the creation of the Eternal Reich would end there.

However, when the Reich began to exert pressure on the Czechs in 1938, it was in the interests of France that Czechoslovakia and Poland enter into a military alliance, and Warsaw categorically refused to do so. The French even tried to convince the Poles to remove Beck, who led the foreign policy of Warsaw, from the post of Foreign Minister. The Poles of Beck were not removed, and they did not conclude an alliance with Prague. The fact was that Warsaw had territorial claims not only against Russia and Lithuania, but also against Czechoslovakia. Poles claimed Tieszyn Silesia. So, another surge of anti-Czech feelings in Poland occurred in 1934, when an active campaign was launched to return the original Polish lands. In the fall of 1934, the Polish army conducted large maneuvers on the border with Czechoslovakia, where operations were practiced in the event of the collapse of Czechoslovakia or its surrender to Germany. In 1935, Polish-Czech relations became even cooler. Both ambassadors were sent home. The Polish government, copying Hitler’s policies, created in the spring of 1938 in Teszyn a “union of Poles” whose goal was to join this region to Poland.

France in 1935 entered into a military agreement with the USSR on the protection of Czechs from Germans. Moscow concluded two agreements: with France and Czechoslovakia. According to them, Moscow pledged to help Prague if it was supported by the old ally - France. In 1938, the Reich, threatening the Czechs with war, demanded the Sudetenland. An ally of Czechoslovakia, France, in the event of a real German attack on the Czechs, was to declare war on Germany. And at this critical moment, another French ally, Poland, said it would not declare war on Nazi Germany, since in this case the French would attack the Germans, not the Germans, France. As a result, Poland betrayed its ally - France. The Poles disarmed and stunned the French, undermined their self-confidence. France was afraid to support Czechoslovakia alone (without the support of other Western countries). Paris, not having the support of Poland, lost to the British, who wanted to "appease" Hitler at the expense of the countries of Central and Eastern Europe.

In May 1938, the Soviet Union announced its readiness to support Czechoslovakia, subject to the passage of the Red Army through Poland or Romania. It is clear that the governments of Poland and Romania categorically rejected the proposal of the USSR. If Moscow tried to send troops to Czechoslovakia through Polish territory, then, besides Poland, Romania would declare war on us, with which the Poles had a military alliance against Russia. Interestingly, Moscow expressed its willingness to fulfill the agreement with the Czechs, even if France refuses it. That is, the Union was ready to confront Germany and Poland (plus Romania) in alliance with Czechoslovakia. But the Czechs broke down and surrendered under the pressure of the "collective West."


Polish 7TP tank overcomes Czechoslovak border fortifications


Polish troops enter Tesin


Polish tanks in Tesin. October 1938

"Hyena of Europe"


September 29, 1938 in Munich, an agreement was signed between Germany, Britain, France and Italy. Czechoslovakia was supposed to cede the Sudetenland to Germany. On October 1, 1938, the Wehrmacht invaded Czechoslovakia and occupied the Sudetenland. On the same day, Czechoslovakia was forced to withdraw its troops from the Cieszyn region, which was captured by Poland on October 2.

Even in the summer of 1938, during informal negotiations with the Poles, Berlin made it clear that it would not be opposed to Poland’s capture of the Teszy region. By September 20, Polish and German diplomats jointly worked out a draft of new state borders, which was sent to Munich. On September 21, 1938, in the midst of the Sudeten crisis, Warsaw presented an ultimatum to Prague, demanding the transfer of Tieszyn Silesia. On September 27, a repeated demand for the transfer of Teshin was voiced. A powerful anti-Czech information campaign has been launched in Poland. In Polish cities, recruitment was taking place in the Teszynsk volunteer corps. Detachments of volunteers transferred to the border of Czechoslovakia, where they committed armed provocations and sabotage, attacked military facilities. Polish planes daily violated the airspace of Czechoslovakia. Polish diplomacy demanded in London and Paris the same solution to the Sudeten and Teschin issues. Meanwhile, the Polish and German military agreed on a line of demarcation of troops in Czechoslovakia.

On September 30, the Polish government sent the Czechs another ultimatum demanding that the Polish conditions be accepted by 12 noon on October 1 and that they be fulfilled within 10 days. During urgently organized consultations, France and England, not wanting to break the negotiations in Munich, put pressure on Czechoslovakia. Chekhov was forced to agree to the terms. On October 1, Czechs began to divert themselves from the border, and the Tieszyn region was transferred to Poland. The Second Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth acquired 805 km² of territory and over 230 thousand citizens. In addition, the Cieszyn region was an important economic center of Czechoslovakia, and Poland increased the production capacity of its heavy industry by almost 50%. Thus, Poland, together with Germany, launched a great war in Europe.

However, further impudence of the Poles puzzled even Berlin. So, in November 1938, Warsaw, inspired by success, demanded that Czechoslovakia transfer Moravian Ostrava and Vitkovic to it. But Hitler himself had already laid eyes on these areas. When the Germans dismembered the remainder of Czechoslovakia in March 1939, separate measures were taken against possible Polish actions. Hitler ordered the Moravian-Ostrava ledge to be occupied in order to pre-secure the Vitkovice metallurgical plants from being captured by the Poles. The Polish authorities did not protest against the seizure of the Czech Republic, but were offended by the fact that during the final partition of Czechoslovakia they were not transferred new lands.

So Poland became the "hyena of Europe." Not having an official union with Hitler, Warsaw sought to chop off everything that is possible and impossible. Therefore, in the German Foreign Ministry, Poland was called the "battlefield hyena." And W. Churchill noted:

“And now, when all these advantages and all this help were lost and abandoned, England, leading France behind it, offers to guarantee the integrity of Poland - that same Poland, which only six months ago with the greed of a hyena took part in the robbery and destruction of the Czechoslovak state” .



Handshake of the Polish Marshal Edward Rydz-Smigla and the German attache, Major General Bohislav von Studnitz, at the Independence Day parade in Warsaw on November 11, 1938. The Polish parade was especially tied to the capture of Tieszyn Silesia a month earlier
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  1. GKS 2111 15 January 2020 05: 52 New
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    Thus, Poland, together with Germany, launched a great war in Europe.
    And now this hyena is building a sacrifice out of itself, but we have the audacity to compare us with Nazi Germany ..
    The lower house of the Polish parliament adopted a resolution accusing the Russian authorities of "manipulating history", the press service of the Sejm reported. The document states that the USSR and Nazi Germany bear equal responsibility for the outbreak of World War II.
    “The Sejm of the Republic of Poland condemns the provocative and untrue statements of representatives of the highest authorities of the Russian Federation trying to accuse Poland of unleashing the Second World War,” the resolution says. The document claims that the beginning of the war was led by the policy of two totalitarian powers - Germany and the Soviet Union and the conclusion of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. “The first victims of both totalitarian regimes were Poland and the countries of Central and Eastern Europe,” the Sejm said.
    1. Hunter 2 15 January 2020 06: 24 New
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      Great article! It’s really enough to be silent about the role of Poland in unleashing WWII. They wanted to get along with Hitler at the expense of foreign lands - it did not work, the Nazis had other plans for the "hyenas". Let the Polish Sejm address all questions to Chamberlain, for the Munich agreement ...
      I don’t understand how the country actually fought on the side of the Nazis, putting ~ 500 thousand volunteers to the Wehrmacht and the SS, “helping” the Nazis to solve the Jewish question (concentration camps in Poland), having killed almost all of its Jews, with industry working for Germany ... maybe just blaming someone? We’ve completely lost conscience!
      1. Olgovich 15 January 2020 08: 12 New
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        Quote: Hunter 2
        Really Stop being silent about the role of Poland in unleashing WWII.

        Right.

        But there was no need to keep silent about this yet 75 years ago!

        And do not cover this hyena and do not feed it with lands in the hope that it will become ... an ally: the hyena will always remain a hyena.

        Road spoon to dinner: would establish the USSR in 1945 gthat WWII started on October 1, 1938 (even if someone didn’t agree, do not care!) - and NOBODY would today didn't jerk.

        Today it is much harder ....

        But still, the State Duma and the President of Russia must accept The decree that WWII began on October 1, 1938 the day when Germany, Poland and Hungary tore Czechoslovakia.
        Died while incidentally TENS of people, they were killed by the invaders!

        This was the first act of world war in Europe .. Which should be fixed.
      2. n0001 15 January 2020 13: 50 New
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        The USSR occupied the Baltic countries, part of Romania, and launched a war with Finland. Based on the Molotov-Ribenterop contract
        1. Olgovich 16 January 2020 10: 23 New
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          Quote: n0001
          USSR occupied part of Romania,

          Go to school: NEVER neither the RSFSR nor the USSR recognized Bessarabia occupied by the Romanians as part of Romania.
          In 1918, Romania was obliged under an agreement with the RSFSR to get out of there, but remained contrary to it.
          What is categorically not recognized USSR for all 22 years. On maps indicated as an occupied part.

          In 1940, after another reminder of the USSR, she got out.

          Chop on your forehead.
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      3. rigoletto2001 30 March 2020 08: 41 New
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        Yeah ..... you should not be silent about the role of Poland, only the role of the USSR will not decrease from this. Plague (USSR) pointing a finger at the patient with Flu, accuses him of an epidemic ......
    2. Basil50 15 January 2020 06: 28 New
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      The Poles, in search of valor or something heroic of that Pilsuda Poland, had * forgotten * a lot of things and had already forgiven themselves a lot.
      Today's Poland is being built as a classic country of victorious Catholicism. They themselves have forgiven everything. Just like the popes, who, if there are those who dare to remind about the crimes, then there are also witnesses of * holiness * and integrity of thoughts.
      Poles like true Catholics follow the covenant of the popes and follow the patterns of treachery.
      By the way, Polish Poles fiercely hate Poles in RUSSIA. They cannot forgive that RUSSIAN POLES recognize the rights of people regardless of religion and origin.
      It is very funny to watch how the Poles are trying to become panas. In the full sense * from rags to riches * and necessarily arrogant ambition ......
    3. qQQQ 15 January 2020 09: 16 New
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      Quote: GKS 2111
      And now this hyena is building a sacrifice out of itself, but we have the audacity to compare us with Nazi Germany ..

      She is building a sacrifice because, starting in the USSR, this issue was carefully paused. And now they have just begun to gradually raise it at the official level, everyone hoped for good relations with dear partners.
      1. Octopus 15 January 2020 13: 27 New
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        Quote: qqqq
        now they have just begun to raise it a little at the official level

        Well, to whom, and the successor of the USSR, the topic of starting WWII would not be worth raising. But no, they believed their own TV, it seems.
        1. qQQQ 15 January 2020 16: 46 New
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          Quote: Octopus
          Well, to whom, and the successor of the USSR, the topic of starting WWII would not be worth raising.

          I did not understand, but why should we, as the successor of the USSR, be ashamed?
          1. Octopus 15 January 2020 17: 23 New
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            Quote: qqqq
            why should we, as the successor of the USSR, be ashamed?

            Well, you, as the assignee, have nothing. But in general, the fact that the beginning of WWII in Europe somehow coincided in date with the liberation of Western Belarus and Western Ukraine from the Polish government was previously considered a little inconvenient for discussion. Moreover, including the Soviet Union.
            1. qQQQ 15 January 2020 20: 02 New
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              Quote: Octopus
              But in general, the fact that the beginning of WWII in Europe somehow coincided in date with the liberation of Western Belarus and Western Ukraine from the Polish government was previously considered a little inconvenient for discussion. Moreover, including the Soviet Union.

              Because, if we discard Western propaganda and look only at the facts, the beginning of WWII coincided with the signing of the Munich agreement and the partition of Czechoslovakia between Germany and Poland, and the liberation of our territories occupied by Poland in the 20s, in violation of the treaty, the USSR was already engaged when the WWII was in full swing there was already and the Polish government managed to escape from their partner, one might say, with whom they actively agreed to divide the territory of the USSR. Watch the Air Force less, read more.
              1. Octopus 15 January 2020 21: 28 New
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                Quote: qqqq
                the beginning of WWII coincided with the signing of the Munich agreement and the partition of Czechoslovakia between Germany and Poland,

                This is the point of view of yours and Samsonov. More traditional authors start the war in Europe from 01.09.1939/XNUMX/XNUMX.
                Quote: qqqq
                in violation of the contract

                Contract with whom?
                Quote: qqqq
                Watch the Air Force less, read more.

                Samsonova?
                1. qQQQ 16 January 2020 09: 30 New
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                  Quote: Octopus
                  Samsonova?

                  But who cares who the author is, the fact of things is independent of authorship. But the facts say that the USSR did not do anything that countries such as Poland, Britain, etc. would not have done before it. The 19th agreement between Poland and the USSR, where the border ran along the Curzon line, the signing of which foiled Poland, starting the offensive in 20. I’ll say right away that everything was fine at the beginning of the negotiations, but at some point Poland felt that the KA was weak and tried grab Ukraine and Belarus. So, that “hyena of Europe”, according to Churchill, in 39 received what she herself was cooking for others for a long time.
                  1. Octopus 16 January 2020 16: 08 New
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                    Quote: qqqq
                    facts thing independent of authorship

                    What you state is not facts.
                    Quote: qqqq
                    The USSR did not do anything that countries such as Poland and Britain would not have done before it.

                    The USSR liberated the historical lands from the power of the bourgeoisie, priests and landlords at the same time as Germany seized them from the other side of the same state, having previously signed an agreement with Germany on this issue. This was done by Poland and Hungary, this was not done by Britain, and even at first Italy, not to mention Japan.
                    Quote: qqqq
                    The 19th agreement between Poland and the USSR, where the border ran along the Curzon line

                    There was no agreement between Poland and the USSR of the 19th year. The USSR was created in 1922. As for the territories east of the Curzon line, at that time they belonged to the UPR, which was occupied by the RSFSR as a result of the civil war. However, Curzon also did not recognize the UPR and stood for Russia, One and Indivisible. Russia for Curzon at that time was Denikin. However, due to Denikin's incapacity, Poland tidied up what was lying badly.

                    In the 20th year, the RSFSR occupied the UPR and attacked Poland west of the Curzon line. As a result of the failure of this event, the RSFSR signed the Riga Peace Treaty, which admitted defeat and handed over to Poland the lands under discussion and any additional indemnities. In 1939, two large countries began a slight restoration of historical justice. One - for the 19th year with the Entente (and at the same time with Poland), the other - for the 21st (and several other years), in particular with Poland.

                    Now this whole story can be interpreted so that the newborn imperialist predators: Poland, Czechoslovakia, Romania and the RSFSR - occupied and divided Ukraine. If you support this interpretation, then yes, everyone got what they deserved, though, including the Ukrainians themselves.
                    1. qQQQ 16 January 2020 17: 18 New
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                      The section of Czechoslovakia is precisely the fact that neither is a fact. The USSR liberated the historical lands that Poland had already lost as a result of a game with Hitler. UNR incomprehensible education, which arose as a result of the revolution in the Republic of Ingushetia, did not possess any legitimacy. In the 20th year, the RSFSR restored the state that had historically been formed in 1917. Poland did not really want to agree with Denikin, because he was in favor of restoring the Republic of Ingushetia, it was just the negotiations that were being conducted with the Soviet regime, it was they who allowed the Space Forces to withdraw and transfer them to defeat Denikin, and then Poland decided that there would be no resistance to it, in a word, jackals. Nobody could occupy Ukraine, because there has never been such a state; how can one capture what is not and never was?
                      1. Octopus 16 January 2020 18: 28 New
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                        Quote: qqqq
                        The section of Czechoslovakia is precisely the fact that neither is a fact

                        The division of Czechoslovakia took place in two stages.
                        1. The Munich Agreement of the 3 Powers of Germany transferred the Sudetenland, almost entirely populated by ethnic Germans. I returned to my native harbor, so to speak. At this stage, we can talk about the participation of France and Britain, but diplomatic, and not military.
                        2. Germany, together with Poland and Hungary, torn the rest of Czechoslovakia. At this stage, there was no involvement of Britain and France, as the latter wrote in detail in the text of the indictment of the Nuremberg Tribunal, to which, as always, Mr. Samsonov referred without thinking. At the same time, the mentioned conclusion describes Hitler’s actions as a “conspiracy”, and does not mention either Poland or Hungary.
                        3. The conclusion describes the Austrian and Czechoslovakian cases in terms of preparation for WWII (and far from beginning this preparation), and not directly WWII.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        Poland has already lost as a result of playing with Hitler

                        Not. With the exception of a couple of cities where the fastest Hans was the first, the Wehrmacht did not enter the territories liberated by the liberating army. So the Red Army exempted from the Polish administration, and not from the Wehrmacht. By the way, I note that about 0,5 million prisoners of war were formed during the liberation, including most of the Anders army.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        incomprehensible education, which arose as a result of the revolution in the Republic of Ingushetia, had no legitimacy

                        In December of the 19th year, when Curzon drew these lines of his own, the ROA of Kolchak and the All-Union Lenin League of Denikin had legitimacy. Red rebels began to be considered (in Britain) a state only in 1924.
                        As for the UPR, it was recognized by neighboring states. Namely, Germany and the RSFSR. UNR appeared, again, in the Brest-Litovsk Treaty.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        Denikin Poland didn’t really want to agree, because he was for the restoration of RI

                        Yes. This is one of the decisive mistakes of the white movement.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        then Poland considered that there would be no resistance, in a word - jackals.

                        Let me remind you that between the Shura-moors and the Bolsheviks in the 19th and the Riga Treaty in the 21st, an assault on Warsaw took place. Not Moscow, I want to emphasize this, but Warsaw.

                        Against this background, Soviet hypocrites are not being translated, who shout that poor Poland refused to let Soviet troops through its territory to the aid of Czechoslovakia. Fortunately, Comrade Budenny knew the way, familiar places.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        Nobody could occupy Ukraine, because there has never been such a state; how can one capture what is not and never was?

                        What can you do, the former brothers did not guess with the national heroes, and began to promote Bandera instead of Skoropadsky. How long it will be short, but they will guess that Ukraine, one of the founding countries of the UN, has been under Russian occupation all the Soviet time (like Belarus). It is such a concept, I remind you, that is universally recognized (except for Russia) with respect to the Baltic states.
                      2. qQQQ 17 January 2020 09: 41 New
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                        The fact that Britain and France simply allowed Germany to tear Czechoslovakia and did not allow the USSR to defend it is, of course, a completely different matter, but Poland, it turns out to be a little too far, but everything within the limits of the democratic norm is sarcasm, I emphasize that Poland has to act The USSR is a sin to be offended, it did the same thing, only earlier. The spacecraft’s offensive against Warsaw was precisely the answer to the Polish aggression of 20 years. Look at the dates. By the way, Warsaw has not yet responded to the genocide of 70 thousand captured Red Army soldiers, of course they didn’t burn and poison gas in crematoriums, they acted democratically humanely - they placed them in the field and didn’t feed or treat, but we are not the West, for us it is their murder. About the non-brothers, there has never been a state of Ukraine, these are originally historical Russian lands, so there could be no occupation, if you think the opposite, provide at least one document confirming the existence of the state of Ukraine. In the meantime, this is an Austrian project for the separation of one people, here are documents in bulk.
                      3. Octopus 18 January 2020 05: 12 New
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                        Quote: qqqq
                        Britain and France simply allowed Germany to tear Czechoslovakia apart and prevented the USSR from defending it,

                        It seems to you that they have already been explained several times. Britain and France agreed to return the Sudetes to their home harbor, on the basis of the principle of self-determination. Then Hitler treacherously He returned to his native harbor all of Czechoslovakia, that is, already Bohemia. The British and French then wrote all this precisely in the indictment.
                        As for the capabilities of the USSR, do not tell the hens. The USSR was going to defend someone there from the Wehrmacht, to hell with the same army (also not mobilized), which he defended the Finnish workers and peasants a year later from the tsarist executioner Mannerheim, 30 km from Leningrad, the second capital. At the same time, on the way, the USSR could well accidentally protect someone else, if it was easier than protecting the Sudeten Germans from the Wehrmacht. For example, Western Belarusians with Western Ukrainians from the Poles. Why would the Poles object to the presence of the Red Army in their country, in fact? Who would have thought in advance that they would not agree?

                        Nevertheless, this Stalinist trolling, which even then enraged everyone, Soviet patriots repeat 80 years. From a big mind.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        Warsaw has not yet answered for the genocide of 70 thousand prisoners of war

                        What a rant. Are you going to ask someone for all the victims of the Civil War? Does the nickname "Countrywoman" say anything to you?
                        Let me remind you, by the way, that from the point of view of a foreign state, these people were not soldiers. Dobrobat.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        if you think the opposite, provide at least one document confirming the existence of the state of Ukraine.

                        Catch.
                        Since Russia, on the one hand, and Germany, Austria-Hungary, Bulgaria, and Turkey, on the other, agreed to end the state of war and possibly end peace negotiations, they were appointed plenipotentiaries:

                        From the Russian Federative Soviet Republic:

                        Grigory Yakovlevich Sokolnikov, member of the Center. Exec. Komit. Owls Slave., Soldier. and peasants. Deputies

                        Lev Mikhailovich Karakhan, member of the Center. Exec. Committee of Soviets Rab., Sold. and Peasant Deputies,

                        Georgy Vasilyevich Chicherin, Assistant People's Commissar for Foreign Affairs and

                        Grigory Ivanovich Petrovsky, People's Commissar for Internal Affairs.
                        .
                        Plenipotentiaries gathered in Brest-Litovsk for peace talks and after presenting their powers recognized as drawn up in
                        correct and proper form, agreed on the following decisions

                        Russia pledges to immediately make peace with Ukrainian People's Republic and recognize the peace treaty between this state and the powers of the Fourth Union. Territory Ukraine immediately cleared of Russian troops and the Russian Red Guard. Russia stops all agitation or propaganda against government or public institutions of the Ukrainian People’s Republic.

                        On March 16, the Soviet side finally ratified the agreement, which was adopted by congress delegates by a roll-call vote by a majority of 704 votes (against - 284, with 115 abstentions)
                      4. qQQQ 18 January 2020 09: 44 New
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                        About returning to your home harbor - this is ridiculous. Regarding the introduction of troops. The USSR was the only country that was ready to provide real assistance, and no one can know how events would develop further, because in fact, it was rejected and we have what we have. Nobody officially defended the Finnish workers, we pushed our border away from Leningrad (Finland had to fight with Hitler less and support the “white” movement while putting forward slogans about expanding Finland at the expense of the USSR). The Poles were asked only for a passage, if they wanted, then they could achieve any kind of guarantees. Regarding the documents of the UNR, I do not argue that a UNR was formed on the wreckage of RI, whether it possessed legitimacy - this is a big question, there was no such state before. The Brest-Litovsk Treaty was practically liquidated in 1918. Some people believe that the Bolsheviks were not legitimate (I don’t think so), so from your point of view did the agreement between them and the UPR have any significance? And another question, was there a recognition by the RSFSR of the state of the UPR or did not have time, in connection with the untimely death of the Brest-Litovsk Treaty? So this document says little about it, much less to base the existence of the state of Ukraine on it is a very controversial moment.
                      5. qQQQ 18 January 2020 10: 05 New
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                        If you recognize the right of Germany to return the Sudetenland, despite the contracts signed as a result of the WWII, then please be kind enough to recognize the right of Russia to Ukraine in 18, as it is now, as a territory historically a part of Russia and inhabited mainly by the Russian population (do not offer artificially derived Sumerians).
                      6. qQQQ 18 January 2020 10: 12 New
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                        Quote: Octopus
                        Are you going to ask someone for all the victims of the Civil War? Does the nickname "Countrywoman" say anything to you? I recall, by the way, that from the point of view of a foreign state, these people were not soldiers. Dobrobat.

                        By your logic, does this justify genocide? 70 thousand are specific numbers of prisoners of war in Poland (plus, minus).
                      7. Octopus 18 January 2020 12: 35 New
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                        Quote: qqqq
                        By your logic, does this justify genocide?

                        You have a bit too enthusiastic attitude to the word "genocide", especially by the standards of those years. It seems that you literally just drowned for the principle "Woe to the vanquished", no?
                        Quote: qqqq
                        If you acknowledge Germany’s right to return the Sudetenland

                        I recognize the right of peoples to self-determination. And I recognize the right to ignore the right of peoples to self-determination, and indeed any rights, for any country that can afford it in the military sense.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        territory historically part of Russia and populated mainly by the Russian population

                        I recognize the right of Russia to any territory that it is able to conquer. Unfortunately, Mr. Zelensky and his voters do not understand this very simple thought. When you lie to yourself, it’s very difficult to stop. You just need to stop shooting, agree in the middle, that's all.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        About returning to your home harbor - this is ridiculous

                        This is exactly what was presented. The Sudetes were almost purely German ethnically.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        The USSR was the only country that was ready to provide real assistance.

                        The USSR was simply trolling, with troll being primarily Poland. How the Red Army of the 38th year could protect the Germans from the German army is more or less known.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        Finnish workers, even officially no one defended

                        Only comrade Kuusinen.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        achieve any guarantees

                        Warranty from whom? From the USSR? Unfortunately, they did not accept NATO at that time, and only NATO tanks gave and give the guarantee of good neighborly relations with the USSR and mutual recognition of borders, it has been checked many times.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        so from your point of view, did the agreement between them and the UPR have any significance?

                        What's the difference? This agreement was signed by all countries with which the UPR bordered, with the exception of United and Indivisible Russia of Denikin. But then the circumstances changed, and the UNR was a little occupied. Moreover, it was not Denikin with the Indivisible, but that same RSFR, which this very treaty had literally just signed.

                        Yet again. Woe to the vanquished.
                      8. qQQQ 18 January 2020 12: 46 New
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                        Quote: Octopus
                        Yet again. Woe to the vanquished.

                        Yes, we have practically no contradictions on all issues. It’s just that I argued that to whom to whom, but not to Poland, to raise the issue of unleashing WWII. And in the World the right of the strong rules and nobody has canceled it. And based on this simple postulate, everything that the USSR could do at the beginning of WWII was justified and lawful.
                      9. Octopus 18 January 2020 13: 23 New
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                        Quote: qqqq
                        we have practically no contradictions on all issues

                        Well, you see. There are liberal tolerance, there are Stalinists, there is reality. If both parties recognize reality, and do not invent fairy tales, like Samsonov, it’s easy to agree.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        All that the USSR could do at the beginning of WWII was justified and lawful.

                        Everything that the USSR could do was justified, lawful and holy, as long as the USSR was a winner. When he lost, everything he did became a crime.

                        Yes, losing the new war in the 91st cancels the victory in the old war in the 45th. The only chance to remain a winner is to sit quietly in your corner and hope that no one will bill for the old victories. But no, Russia decided to get up off its knees.

                        These people, our partners, demolish the monuments to George Washington for insufficient moral impeccability, did someone really seriously expect that they would now listen to Comrade Stalin's merits, what were they like?
                      10. qQQQ 18 January 2020 13: 33 New
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                        Quote: Octopus
                        The only chance to remain a winner is to sit quietly in your corner and hope that no one will bill for the old victories.

                        Up to this point, I agree with everything, but as one tsarist general said (unfortunately I do not remember my last name) - I have too little strength to defend ourselves, we will advance. Russia tried to stay until today (in my opinion, a huge mistake), we were still pulled out and it was long before “getting off our knees”, already in the 90s all the same claims were put forward as now, just before we had practically everything they agreed and poured all this on themselves, hoping that this was the last and everyone would calm down, practice showed - woe to the vanquished. And on this basis, the question is not to be posed whether we have the strength or not, it concerns the survival of the state, we must fight.
                      11. Octopus 18 January 2020 14: 06 New
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                        Quote: qqqq
                        just not Poland to raise the issue of unleashing WWII

                        Poland has largely successfully staked its status as the main casualties war in Europe. Before her, Israel was the main victim (all of a sudden), but Europe has long been tired of Israel, so it’s easily redefined its approach.
                        Russia is trying to swing rights the winner. These are completely different things.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        they still pulled us out and it was long before "getting up from our knees"

                        Uh, no. The main thing you need to know about the Great War and the Great Victory - it was 75 years ago. Now she is not interested in anyone at all, including those who only buzz about her every day. So the partners were not going to do something in reality, but fought with the shadow of Stalin, also, between us, long dead. If you take the trouble to read the same resolution of the European Parliament, you will see that bad Stalin oppressed everyone, first of all Russian, and so it is written.

                        But no. The Russians began to jump, wave their hands and shout, "No, it was not dead Stalin, it was us, we are current! I / we are the winner of World War II! Yes, by the way, can repeat!"
                        They heard us, and not even twenty years have passed. Will you be here for I. Stalin, Mashenka? On, get for Stalin.
                      12. qQQQ 18 January 2020 14: 35 New
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                        Everything is clear with Poland, there is nothing even to discuss there. The trick (I primarily mean the Russian leadership) recognized Stalin as a “bad guy”, but again, instead of calming down, the West began to actively develop the theme that a bad guy could not be a winner, but could only be almost an ally (deliberately exaggerated) Hitler, and it follows that the USSR is the instigator of WWII, and Russia is the successor of the USSR, so the question of reparations arises and here Poland hoped to profit (woe to the vanquished). And finally, the simple truth came to our leadership that one shouldn’t spoil one’s past - it’s cumbersome. Everyone immediately remembered what kind of sacrifices the Victory cost us, and Poland and Czechoslovakia, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Italy, Spain, and Croatia owe us the good things, first for destroying the country and destroying the population, and then for restoring (to their own detriment) countries (not all, but only social. camps). And in fairness, the current elite has no thoughts about the national idea, and the Great Victory even unites everyone. But the West’s primary attempt was, taking advantage of Stalin’s ambiguity, to force Russia to repent and pay, they had little victory in the Cold War, they needed to be suppressed, but as they say - the best enemy of the good. Well, getting up is always harder than just walking on the thumb, but, along the way, we were left with no choice, either to stand up, despite the losses, or sink into oblivion.
                      13. Octopus 18 January 2020 15: 00 New
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                        Quote: qqqq
                        a bad guy could not be a winner, but could only be almost an ally (intentionally exaggerated) of Hitler, and it follows that the USSR is the instigator of WWII, and Russia is the successor of the USSR

                        Not. You retell a newspaper close to the Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs. At the official level, none of the big ones billed Russia for Comrade Stalin, much less talked about revising Yalta-San Francisco-Potsdam. Nobody needs this, remember the old vileness.
                        But no, Russia itself, herself fit in for Stalin. Now everything that prevents just kicking the Russian Foreign Ministry underfoot is, firstly, the traditional patience of the Germans (the Japanese 50 years ago announced that they were not guilty of anything and owed nothing to anyone, the Italians were also instantly blamed for the guilt), and secondly , participation in all this peace process of three American presidents.
                        The man who lowered the iron curtain from Stettin in the Baltic Sea to Trieste in the Adriatic was called Franklin Delano Roosevelt, not Joseph Stalin at all. Joseph Stalin did exactly what he was allowed to do. He knew his interest and did not miss the moment.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        for good, we should

                        The loser of the war cannot show the victors reparations for another war, 70 years ago. Woe to the vanquished.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        make Russia repent

                        None but the unofficial ex-brothers of Russia behind the USSR I had no complaints. In the terrible 90s, a normal historical concept was built up for Russia that Russia is a victim of the USSR, a certain kingdom of the Antichrist, which (the kingdom) was blown away by the wind of Freedom, as in a fairy tale, and now there will be peace, friendship and chewing gum everywhere.
                        This is a false concept, but it was convenient for everyone. But no, Russia wanted a dilapidated greatness, not important divine or diabolical, but alien greatness, which today's Russia is absolutely not in growth and not in money.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        they left us no choice

                        Yes Yes. Make yourself as many enemies as possible.
                      14. qQQQ 18 January 2020 17: 07 New
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                        We are moving in a circle. Our leadership very actively supported the line on demonizing Stalin, but the excessive demands of the West, not only of the former republics, forced them to do not even propaganda, but to state the facts, and the facts are stubborn and many people don’t like it. If you feel like it, consider yourself a victim of whom and what you want, and Russia is not a victim of the USSR, then there was a lot of grief and no less greatness. You can’t refuse your story, it is what it is. And all that we now have in the former republics is precisely the merit of the USSR. If you throw away everything that was created during the years of the USSR (I mean industry), then there will be practically nothing left, and, along the way, there is already so little left to break. Well, we didn’t make enemies for ourselves, mind you, all our so-called enemies themselves were written like that. I’ll say right away that Georgia and Ukraine did everything to ensure that what would happen happened. Russia still suffered a lot and treated them very divinely.
                      15. Octopus 18 January 2020 17: 37 New
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                        Quote: qqqq
                        Russia is not a victim of the USSR,

                        Yes Yes.
                        Well, since everyone else was signed up as a victim, Russia alone for everything to puff.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        created over the years of the USSR

                        Yes Yes. Where the USSR wound up, plants rustled and bread was poured, and where tsar's executioners dug in, they dug in 150 km from Leningrad, devastation, hopelessness, the Middle Ages.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        all our so-called enemies themselves were written like this

                        Yes Yes. Themselves, all by yourself. And they talked about the correct Pact themselves, and the artillery salutes in Moscow in the days of the capture of European capitals themselves.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        I’ll say right away that Georgia and Ukraine did everything to ensure that what would happen happened.

                        You're right. They themselves are to blame.
                        Peaceful coexistence with Russia is possible only when Russia cannot attack protect someone. The Balts knew this from the very beginning and went under a serious roof, it recently came to the Belarusians, it was very funny to watch. For decades, Georgians and Ukrainians lied to themselves that they would not have to fight, although Russian soldiers stood on their land from the USSR itself.

                        Well, they got what they deserve. You are right, received a little, and it didn’t get as it should, what they are dealing with. Again, these snot about the world with Russia, in Georgia, in Ukraine.
                      16. qQQQ 18 January 2020 18: 36 New
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                        Again, back to the beginning, the Pact is practically a copy of what Poland signed, and then it, together with Germany, torn Czechoslovakia, and did all this much earlier, so the USSR was just the last country to conclude such an agreement, before us were: France, Britain, Poland first claim them. You can sign up anywhere, they want to make sacrifices, for God's sake, only it was already officially said that they had ears from a dead donkey. Before the USSR, Russia was an agrarian country with little industrial potential, and it was the USSR that brought it to at least second place in the world in economic power, so your sarcasm is not the topic. As for the former, it was just at a certain point, for some reason everyone decided that Russia was a FSE, and you can not take into account its interests, and even act against it, and then it turned out that not all and the eternal question hung (which probably the gene level has already got all the Russians): and what for us? Yes, because if you want to take into account your interests, be able to take into account ours. And with Belarus, what's wrong? Old Man wants a freebie, he was told that it’s already enough, you need to work it out, is Russia again to blame?
                      17. uncle 18 January 2020 18: 56 New
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                        Quote: qqqq
                        The pact is practically a copy of the one that Poland signed, and then she, along with Germany, torn Czechoslovakia,

                        If some uncle banged some other uncle, then can this uncle bang with impunity?
                        I'm afraid the uncle, the policeman, and the aunt judge will not agree with you. And thunder you, with your crooked logic, to the fullest.
                      18. qQQQ 18 January 2020 19: 00 New
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                        Quote: uncle
                        And thunder you, with your logic, to the fullest.

                        As far as I know, international law is a case law, i.e. what is possible for one country, it is possible for the rest, so that based on the precedent of concluding an agreement with Germany, the USSR acted lawfully.
                      19. uncle 18 January 2020 19: 05 New
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                        Quote: qqqq
                        based on the precedent of concluding an agreement with Germany, the USSR acted lawfully.

                        Wrong.
                        This was recognized by the USSR later. He returned all the lands captured from Poland to her on July 30.07.1941, XNUMX.
                      20. qQQQ 18 January 2020 19: 15 New
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                        Quote: uncle
                        This was recognized by the USSR later. He returned all the lands captured from Poland to her on July 30.07.1941, XNUMX.

                        Yes, we did not recognize anything, and did not seize anything from Poland, so to return, we liberated parts of Ukraine and Belarus that were occupied by Poland in 20 and they are still part of Ukraine and Belarus. I did not understand a bit that we returned 30.07.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX?
                      21. Octopus 18 January 2020 20: 59 New
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                        Quote: qqqq
                        I didn’t understand a bit that we returned 30.07.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX?

                        This refers to the agreement of the USSR in the person of Maisky with the London Sikorsky government, signed in the presence of W. Churchill. The USSR urgently needed to settle claims from Britain and the United States, so that it recognized Poland within the borders of the 39th year (the Wehrmacht by that time had long traveled the Red Army beyond the old border line). In the 43rd position of the USSR changed (yes, as in the 20th year), as a result of which the Sikorsky government became fascist re-singers (because the Katyn question came up), and the Moscow Polish Committee of National Liberation became in the 44th year the Polish government led by Comrade Osubka-Moravsky (he lived to the 97th year, that's who the Poles should have asked well, how and with whom the Didi fought).
                      22. qQQQ 18 January 2020 21: 10 New
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                        Quote: Octopus
                        This refers to the agreement of the USSR in the person of Maisky with the London Sikorsky government, signed in the presence of W. Churchill.

                        Thank you, I didn’t. And the government in London simply lost touch with reality, refusing to cooperate and take into account the interests of the USSR as the only liberator of Poland, so the pro-Soviet was formed. By the way, Churchill was friends with reality, so he agreed with Stalin about Poland and its post-war borders.
                      23. Octopus 18 January 2020 21: 22 New
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                        The Polish government in London had no options. In any case, the liberation of Poland by the USSR signified its end as an independent state.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        By the way, Churchill was friends with reality, so he agreed with Stalin about Poland and its post-war borders.

                        Churchill with great pleasure would return the post-war borders of Poland (and the USSR) where they were. But it was not he who decided the fate of Europe, but Roosevelt. But Roosevelt did not care about Europe, he did not see the difference between pro-Soviet and pro-English England, and indeed Europe as a whole. I think I already wrote it.
                      24. qQQQ 18 January 2020 22: 07 New
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                        This is a realpolitik, and the Polish government has so far understood it, has done a lot of things, and how many died, although they could have lived (Warsaw uprising, AK confrontation with Soviet troops).
    4. uncle 18 January 2020 18: 31 New
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      Quote: qqqq
      and facts are stubborn things and very many do not like it.

      Especially to you and others like you.
      Quote: qqqq
      and no less greatness

      When, for example?
      Quote: qqqq
      You can’t refuse your story, it is what it is.

      First you need to know her.
      The real one.
      Quote: qqqq
      And all that we now have in the former republics is precisely the merit of the USSR.

      There is oil, gas, timber and metals. There is practically nothing more. Not created during the USSR.
      Is this the Bolshevik Communists created raw materials?
      Quote: qqqq
      If you throw out everything that was created during the years of the USSR

      Those. for some reason do you think that if it were not for the USSR, then in Russia without Bolsheviks nothing would have been built in 70 years?
      But how did Russia even live up to the Bolsheviks? How did she survive?
      Quote: qqqq
      and very dearly treated them.

      Now we need to pray that God will treat Russia in a divine way.
    5. qQQQ 18 January 2020 19: 10 New
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      Quote: uncle
      First you need to know her. Real.

      Up to this point, I will not even comment, if you do not see the facts, this does not mean that they are not. Well, and who is the “great” historian who knows everything? Probably Svanidze? I don’t even want to comment on all the subsequent nonsense, because really - nonsense. The only thing that deserves the question is: how did Russia live before the Bolsheviks, I answer — poorly, industries — the rudiments, science — also education, medicine — below the plinth, hunger is the constant companion of most of the population, as an example: in 1914, the average size of a soldier’s clothes was 42 , I emphasize - clothes. In general, a backward agrarian country.
    6. The comment was deleted.
  2. yargrad 4 March 2020 14: 34 New
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    The only chance to remain a winner is to sit quietly in your corner and hope that no one will bill for the old victories. But no, Russia decided to get up off its knees.

    Excuse me, who will forbid us to “get up off our knees”? And why would we "sit quietly in the corner"?
  3. yargrad 4 March 2020 14: 52 New
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    Quote: Octopus
    Warranty from whom? From the USSR?

    And did the "Soviet threat" also force the Poles to warm their hands in Czechoslovakia? The Poles can “tolerate” themselves as much as they like, but the fact that they became the next after Austria and Czechoslovakia does not relieve them of responsibility. Simply put, they went with the Germans to steal, and they were shot during the subsequent division of the loot.
  4. yargrad 4 March 2020 14: 26 New
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    [quote] Britain and France agreed to return the Sudetenland to their home harbor [quote]
    But were they “British” or “French”? Czechoslovakia was invited to discuss this issue or a referendum held on "self-determination"? Geographically, these were the lands of Czechoslovakia. Well then, the "world community" then does not recognize the Crimea?
  5. yargrad 4 March 2020 14: 42 New
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    Quote: Octopus
    It is such a concept, I recall, that is universally recognized (except Russia) in relation to the Baltic states

    Yes, I’ll say more - the “internationally recognized” concept is Russia's fault in everything a priori - for action, for inaction. But the West is forgiven. Because it is difficult to recognize the occupation of Northern Ireland, or to give independence to the Basques. It is much easier to talk about Crimea or Chechnya, or the Molotov-Ribentrop Pact.
  • Serg filipp 15 January 2020 20: 13 New
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    And England and France who declared war fulfilling the allied treaties, the USSR? Or not?
    1. albert 15 January 2020 20: 39 New
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      Quote: Serg Filipp
      And England and France who declared war fulfilling the allied treaties, the USSR? Or not?

      To his ally Hitler, with whom they also had a non-aggression pact.
    2. Octopus 15 January 2020 21: 32 New
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      Quote: Serg Filipp
      England and France who declared war fulfilling the allied treaties, the USSR? Or not?

      You are absolutely right. The British and French again sacrificed principles, believing that one enemy was enough for them. Although there were ideas on the topic of the USSR, both in the 39th and later.
    3. uncle 18 January 2020 18: 36 New
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      Quote: Serg Filipp
      And England and France who declared war fulfilling the allied treaties, the USSR? Or not?

      A beautiful illustration of the fact that they needed the skin of the Nazis and Hitler. And they wanted to lay on Poland, the USSR and Dzhugashvilya.
      Moreover, they kept Dzhugashvily in reserve, like a steam locomotive. And they released this "locomotive" on the road September 24.09.1941, XNUMX. After he had fulfilled a number of conditions that were very unpleasant for him.
  • n0001 15 January 2020 13: 46 New
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    Just for what. Lose independence, territory and be occupied by the USSR?
  • antivirus 16 January 2020 18: 49 New
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    need to release calendars .10 million pieces with the borders of Poland on 1.01.39g and highlight its "new" areas
    it will be a "little spoon" in the bottomless barrel of the restoration of Russia's power.
    and posting to the place of "eternal parking" in Poland
  • Ezekiel 25-17 15 January 2020 06: 09 New
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    The cleverest man was this Lord Churchill.
    1. Far B 15 January 2020 06: 37 New
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      The cleverest man was this Lord Churchill
      Yeah. Only with conscience was he very tense.
      1. Pedrodepackes 15 January 2020 07: 24 New
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        Quote: Far In
        Only with conscience was he very tense.
        what about his conscience?
      2. Ezekiel 25-17 15 January 2020 08: 10 New
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        Quote: Far In
        The cleverest man was this Lord Churchill
        Yeah. Only with conscience was he very tense.

        For a politician, conscience is akin to appendix.
    2. Octopus 15 January 2020 13: 37 New
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      Churchill was generally on the drum, Poland, Czechoslovakia, whatever. It was important for him at that moment to bury Chamberlain.
      1. uncle 18 January 2020 18: 39 New
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        Quote: Octopus
        Churchill was on the drum, Poland, Czechoslovakia

        It is not clear why Poland and Czechoslovakia should not have been on the drum for him.
        This is normal for normal states. Only in abnormal states are they somehow greatly worried abroad.
        1. Octopus 18 January 2020 21: 10 New
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          Quote: uncle
          It is not clear why Poland and Czechoslovakia should not have been on the drum.

          He should not be on the drum Britain. And his position "I’m not walking without a joke at home" was to the detriment of the cause. Chamberlain is the savior of Britain, at least not less than Churchill.

          It recalls, by the way, the speeches of Russian liberals. Specifically, Milyukova, "Stupidity or treason?".
    3. Doliva63 16 January 2020 18: 28 New
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      Quote: Ezekiel 25-17
      The cleverest man was this Lord Churchill.

      As one of my co-workers used to say: "The rarest cattle soul!"
    4. uncle 18 January 2020 18: 38 New
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      Quote: Ezekiel 25-17
      The cleverest man was this Lord Churchill.

      Doodle he was. And the British recognized this in 1945, having rented it in the elections.
      Chamberlain was an intelligent person. But Churchill was more assertive. Therefore, Chamberlain ceded to him.
      All of this ended badly for Britain.
      1. Octopus 18 January 2020 21: 11 New
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        Quote: uncle
        rolling it in the election.

        Let me remind you that they chose Clement Attlee, a socialist, a great friend of the USSR. This really was a disaster.
  • Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 06: 21 New
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    On September 30, the Polish government sent the Czechs another ultimatum demanding that the Polish conditions be accepted by 12 noon on October 1 and that they be fulfilled within 10 days. During urgently organized consultations, France and England, not wanting to break the negotiations in Munich, put pressure on Czechoslovakia. Chekhov was forced to agree to the terms.
    Oh, the Antantists could have shouted at the Poles, but they had to strengthen Hitler. "Peacekeepers" Russophobic.
    1. Pedrodepackes 15 January 2020 07: 33 New
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      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      they had to strengthen Hitler. "Peacekeepers" Russophobic.

      Have you completely read the article?
      From the very beginning, the French asked the Poles to calm down and help them with the Austrian question. France was afraid of Germany’s gain and even proposed to bring the USSR in case of war with the Germans.

      France was afraid to support Czechoslovakia alone (without the support of other Western countries).

      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      "Peacekeepers" Russophobic.
      it may be enough to exaggerate this myth, at least if France did not burn with love for the USSR, it is only because it did not support the Communists, but they were never Russophobes. I’m not talking about England; there is a different alignment with respect to Russia.
      1. Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 08: 23 New
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        Quote: Pedrodepackes
        From the very beginning, the French asked the Poles to calm down and help them with the Austrian question. France was afraid of Germany’s gain and even proposed to bring the USSR in case of war with the Germans.
        To ask and offer to shout it? Without Poland, France could have stood up for Czechoslovakia, and a war on two fronts against Hitler would have been without Pz-35, Pz-38 as part of the Panzerwaff. Czechoslovakia was fed to Hitler and France did not interfere with this.
        Quote: Pedrodepackes
        may be enough to exaggerate this myth
        Clearly, West’s support for Hitler is a myth for you. France may not have been Russophobic, but at one time Spain and its legitimate government did not help, although the Condor legion loomed before the eyes of the French.
        1. Pedrodepackes 15 January 2020 08: 37 New
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          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          To ask and offer to shout it?

          the key concept in this quote
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          France feared Germany's gain
          it was Britain who could sit behind the English Channel, which she did, and France still remembered the First World War (she suffered the greatest losses)
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          France could intercede for Czechoslovakia even without Poland

          could, I do not argue, but was afraid without support, and Poland opposed the passage of the USSR through its territory.
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          France may not have been Russophobic, but at one time Spain and its legitimate government did not help

          But on the basis of what should she help? These were the internal affairs of Spain and, by the way, the notorious Condor legion was voluntary and Germany did not officially conduct military operations, similarly to the USSR and other countries whose military formations were fighting there. By the way, there were a majority of Germans in the inter-brigades, compared with the number of other European volunteers.
          1. Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 08: 49 New
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            Quote: Pedrodepackes
            could, I do not argue, but was afraid without support, and Poland opposed the passage of the USSR through its territory.

            Quote: Pedrodepackes
            France could intercede for Czechoslovakia even without Poland

            could, I do not argue, but was afraid without support, and Poland opposed the passage of the USSR through its territory.
            Well, as a result of the ostrich policy of France and the inflammatory policy of England, Czechoslovakia was fed to the German Nazis.
            Quote: Pedrodepackes
            the notorious Legion "Condor" was voluntary and Germany did not officially conduct hostilities, similar to the USSR
            And what prevented the formation of a volunteer corps in France? Already with the Boschs, many French would want to get even.
            1. Pedrodepackes 15 January 2020 08: 56 New
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              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Well, as a result of the ostrich policy of France and the inflammatory policies of England, Czechoslovakia was fed to the German Nazis.

              I completely agree with this, the question is whether the West is reviving Germany precisely against Russia. What for? The confrontation with the West ended in the 20s, the USSR recognized, established diplomatic and trade relations, and accepted into the League of Nations. And why is Germany, with which they just ended the war, there is Poland, where there is an ardent Russophobic and anti-Soviet state that at that time was not inferior to Germany in its strength, by the way, the Soviet Union at that time established quite warm relations with Germany during the boycott same France.
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              And what prevented the formation of a volunteer corps in France?
              and who told you that the French did not fight in inter-brigades? See the chronicle, so the Republicans are fighting with French rifles and wearing Anders helmets
              1. Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 09: 20 New
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                Quote: Pedrodepackes
                and who told you that the French did not fight in inter-brigades? See the chronicle, so the Republicans are fighting with French rifles and wearing Anders helmets

                Well, let's say the corps of Soviet advisers with heavy weapons and aircraft, the same "Condor" and more than a hundred thousandth Italian army, is not at all the same as several thousand volunteers from France. Well, to hell with them, France, having a common border with Spain, could simply not impose a blockade on the legitimate government of Spain.
                1. Pedrodepackes 15 January 2020 09: 28 New
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                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  it’s not at all the same thing as several thousand volunteers from France.
                  of course, but so did other countries.
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  France, having a common border with Spain, could simply not impose a blockade on the legitimate government of Spain.
                  politics ... nobody wanted to get into a showdown in a foreign country
                  1. Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 09: 32 New
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                    Quote: Pedrodepackes
                    politics ... nobody wanted to get into a showdown in a foreign country

                    In general, I think, a civil war, and even with thousands of contingents of foreign troops, at the very borders, should have been strong enough to strain France, but what happened is what happened. Neither Spain helped, nor Hitler did not cheat.
                    1. Pedrodepackes 15 January 2020 09: 37 New
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                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      should have been strong enough to strain France,

                      and strained, she closed the borders and officially disowned this war, in the end Franco did not claim to be part of France.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      Neither Spain helped ....

                      The question is of course interesting, which Spain? Republican or Francoist? Nobody attacked Spain and did not encroach on independence.
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      ..... nor Hitler did not cheat.
                      and how could they pester Hitler there? The Germans were running their weapons and specialists there, a worthy opponent would only help in this.
                      1. Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 09: 43 New
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                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        Republican or Francoist? Nobody attacked Spain and did not encroach on independence.
                        What was the legal government of Spain, in your opinion?
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        and how could they pester Hitler there? The Germans ran their weapons and specialists there

                        Yes? But France did not want to run in its weapons and specialists? The USSR, for example, has learned a lot from the war in Spain. Grind the same German experts? An excellent opportunity without getting into a full-scale war, since Hitler was so afraid, as was the case with Czechoslovakia.
                      2. Pedrodepackes 15 January 2020 09: 49 New
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                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        What was the legal government of Spain, in your opinion?

                        well then write to the government of Spain. But, if you read what happened before the coup, you would hardly regret such a government, all the more, in any case, these were the internal affairs of a sovereign state, no one went there and France was no exception.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        The USSR, for example, has learned a lot from the war in Spain.

                        in fact, not so much, the maximum level of the regimental level increased the qualifications of individual specialists and military leaders, the war was civil there, and we already had rich experience in such wars, but, unfortunately, it was not useful, and even interfered.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        since she was so afraid of Hitler

                        at that time France was not afraid of Hitler yet.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        But France did not want to run in its weapons and specialists?

                        no, she was not going to fight, given the Maginot Line
                      3. Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 09: 58 New
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                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        it was the internal affairs of a sovereign state, no one climbed there
                        Especially Germany and Italy did not climb, well, you give, chesslovo.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        in fact, not so much, the maximum level of the regiment was raised by the qualifications of individual specialists and military leaders, there was a civil war
                        Well then, what did the Germans learn from this war? You are already contradicting yourself. As for ours, the development of tanks with anti-shell armor, fighters with water motors. the cooling and armored attack aircraft is almost entirely the merit of the Spanish experience!
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        no, she was not going to fight, given the Maginot Line
                        Well, then she wasn’t particularly afraid of Hitler, since she folded her arms.
                      4. Pedrodepackes 15 January 2020 10: 07 New
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                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Especially Germany and Italy, well, you give, chesslovo.

                        then add the USSR))) Vladimir, you’re not a stupid person, why take facts out of the discussion contest, we’re talking about the official participation of states in the conflict in Spain, but no one has officially sent troops there. Current volunteers soldier
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        What then did the Germans extract from this war?

                        The Germans ... they built their aircraft from scratch, they had no specialists at that time, they studied everywhere with us and in Spain, but they got the main experience in France and Poland. And about the experience in Spain ... read how they "took" Austria with losses in the complete absence of army resistance and loyalty of the local population. And in Poland it didn’t work out very well.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        As for ours, the development of tanks with anti-shell armor, fighters with water motors. the cooling and armored attack aircraft is almost entirely the merit of the Spanish experience!

                        Yes? what Wow, they started the war with BT and T-26 tanks with cardboard armor, the same ones that were fought in Spain in 36-37. Water cooling is not a breakthrough, they were with us and their significance was exaggerated by you, all the same, “air vents” were more powerful. The armored attack aircraft appeared only before the war itself, did the experience last for too long? And in general, they thought about the armored attack aircraft and tried to do it back in WWI
                      5. Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 10: 23 New
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                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        Vladimir, you’re not a stupid person, why take facts out of the discussion contest, we’re talking with you about the official participation of states in the conflict in Spain, but no one officially introduced troops there. Current volunteers
                        Can volunteers be armed with the latest models of equipment and weapons? Without state support, by itself?
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        The Germans ... they built their aircraft from scratch, they had no specialists at that time, they studied everywhere with us and in Spain, but they got the main experience in France and Poland.
                        I understand that if you had written about Cameroon, for example, but about Germany ?! The most technologically advanced country of the Triple Alliance!
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        Wow, we started a war with BT and T-26 tanks with cardboard armor, the same ones that fought in Spain in 36-37
                        Sorry, of course, but it looks like the T-34 and KV are not known to you.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        Water cooling is not a breakthrough, we had them too and their significance was exaggerated by you, all the same, “air vents” were more powerful
                        What are the 37-year-old water-cooled fighters? Feel free!
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        The armored attack aircraft appeared only before the war itself, did the experience last for too long?
                        Yes, and he appeared the very next day after receiving a task from the Air Force! R&D is spent one day, well, two, maximum.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        And in general, they thought about the armored attack aircraft and tried to do it back in WWI
                        The same question as with fighters, as it was not even called an armored, but simply a specialized attack aircraft in the USSR in 1937.
                      6. Pedrodepackes 15 January 2020 10: 41 New
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                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Can volunteers be armed with the latest models of equipment and weapons? Without state support, by itself?

                        Of course, there were countries of interest in this conflict, but I do not deny it, but we are talking about the official deployment of troops, and this is not at all the same thing.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        about Germany ?! The most technologically advanced country of the Triple Alliance!

                        have mercy, the triple alliance has sunk into oblivion after the end of the WWII, and together with the two powers that make up it. After the Veral Peace, Germany was robbed by the Entente to the state of "without pants" and still had to remain as land for the collective farm for 100 years (real).
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        It looks like the T-34 and KV are not known to you.

                        ))) you see, the experience of the Spanish war could be generalized and no one made a secret of it, moreover, they themselves developed (and not unsuccessfully) anti-tank artillery, T-34 and KV is a logical development of tanks. The most important experience in the war is the improvement of command personnel in the conduct of hostilities, which the Germans took advantage of in Poland and France, having tested their tactical and strategic doctrines in real battles.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        What are the 37-year-old water-cooled fighters? Feel free!

                        and there’s nothing to call and not because they didn’t reach the mind, but simply there wasn’t enough powerful, compact and lightweight water cooling engine for the fighter, so that he could argue on the wounds with the same fighter with a water cooling engine. For example, La-5 and LaGG-3.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        as it was called, not even armored, but simply a specialized attack aircraft in 1937 in the USSR.

                        But what was the name of a specialized attack aircraft for anyone at all at that time? They were not like a class, although the attack was carried out even with PMV
                      7. Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 11: 16 New
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                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        Of course, there were countries of interest in this conflict, but I do not deny it, but we are talking about the official deployment of troops, and this is not at all the same
                        It’s all you trying to prove that since there is no official deployment of troops, then there is no interference. Just like the French, they would not have imposed an embargo against the legitimate government of Spain.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        After the Veral Peace, Germany was robbed by the Entente to the state of "without pants"
                        And what, all the military with experience, aircraft designers, just designers taken out at the expense of reparations and indemnities?
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        You see, the experience of the Spanish war could be generalized, and no one made a secret of it, especially since they themselves developed (and not unsuccessfully) anti-aircraft artillery, T-34 and KV is a logical development of tanks
                        And who generalized this experience, except for Germany and the USSR?
                        Like this one:
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        Water cooling is not a breakthrough, we had them

                        Does this relate to this?
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        and there’s nothing to call and not because they didn’t reach the mind
                        La-5 would not have happened without LaGG. The Germans would not have been ground without the Yak-1, but there were no water-cooled fighters comparable to the Me-109 before Spain!
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        and what was the name of a specialized attack aircraft for anyone at all at that time
                        It is strange that it began to be developed after the war in Spain, as well as sufficiently powerful engines from the water. cooling, is there any coincidence?
                      8. Pedrodepackes 15 January 2020 11: 49 New
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                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        It’s all you trying to prove that since there is no official deployment of troops, then there is no interference.

                        I’m just talking about politics, and you are about the internal affairs of Spain. It is clear that someone (let’s not point the finger at someone) intervened, which is to deny the obvious.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And what, all the military with experience, aircraft designers, just designers taken out at the expense of reparations and indemnities?

                        they didn’t take them out, but they forbade to work, you won’t deny the forced activities of Junkers in Russia, Fokker in Holland and others. All this ended with Hitler coming to power, but it was.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And who generalized this experience, except for Germany and the USSR?

                        You know, Germany didn’t use the experience on tanks with anti-ballistic armor, such tanks were built at the beginning of the war by the USSR, England and France (the last two people did not take part in the war in Spain) is strange, right?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Does this relate to this?

                        the engines were suitable for the fighter was not. And then, why do you idolize water cooling like a miracle? Each engine has its pros and cons.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        there were no water-cooled fighters comparable to the Me-109 before Spain!

                        we didn’t have them after Spain for a long time (until the 43rd year), but donkey for a long time competed with Messer (here again, modifications should be clarified)
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        La-5 would not have happened without LaGG.

                        and what does it have to do with it? For example, I wanted to say with this comparison that a water-cooled motor is not a panacea.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        The Germans would not have been ground without the Yak-1

                        very controversial statement, but with this you on the appropriate forum.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        It began to be developed after the war in Spain, as well as fairly powerful engines from the water. cooling, is there any coincidence?

                        There are many coincidences in life in general, but why bring facts to your ears? The AM-38 engine is a further development of the AM-34 engine, which in turn comes from the M-17 engine, the prototype of which was a German motor, a license for which was purchased in the 20s. And this entire line up to the AM-35, was built for bombers. Having worsened the altitude data of the AM-35 engine, we received the AM-38 for the attack aircraft (and not only that, the MiG-1 also flew on it (3)) This is so, very briefly. Vladimir, we somehow moved on the topic of technical rearmament, although I had in mind gaining experience of military operations by future military leaders
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        raised the qualifications of individual specialists and military leaders, the maximum regimental level, there was a civil war, and we already had rich experience in such wars, but, unfortunately, it was not useful, and even interfered.
                      9. Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 13: 08 New
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                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        I’m just talking about politics, and you are about the internal affairs of Spain. It is clear that someone (let’s not point the finger at someone) intervened, which is to deny the obvious.
                        How can the intervention of THREE countries remain not politics, but the internal affairs of the country ?! Why didn’t France stand up for the legitimate government of Spain against the Nazi Nazis of Italy and Germany, and then for Czechoslovakia (not the weakest country militarily)? For me personally, the answer is clear, until the last France, together with England, hoped to set Germany, and ideally together with Poland, against the USSR.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        they didn’t take them out, but they forbade work, you won’t deny the forced activities of Junkers in Russia, Fokker in Holland
                        And what, they left brains and experience in Holland and the USSR? And what did you forget about the military, they also dried their brains before the war in Spain? Absolutely not.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        You know, Germany didn’t use the experience on tanks with anti-ballistic armor, such tanks were built at the beginning of the war by the USSR, England and France (the last two people did not take part in the war in Spain) is strange, right?
                        You know, but the Pz-3-4 were already tanks with anti-shell armor, and small-caliber (up to 37 mm) artillery could resist. Matilda 2 was the logical development of Matilda 1 and the Spanish experience has nothing to do with it, just as it has nothing to do with French sliders with 1-2 towers, depending on the type of tank.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        there were no water-cooled fighters comparable to the Me-109 before Spain!
                        after Spain we didn’t have them for a long time .. there were engines that weren’t suitable for a fighter ...
                        Of course there weren’t, but not engines, but fighters.
                        From December 12, 1935, factory tests of an 860 hp engine called the M-100A began in Rybinsk. Power was increased mainly due to a slight increase in boost. On January 15, the commission recognized the M-100A as suitable for mass production.

                        Bf 109B-2, which appeared in the summer of 1937 .... The engine remained Jumo 210Da ... In the spring and summer of 1937, work on the Bf 109 was sharply accelerated ... Jumo 210G with direct fuel injection, a two-speed supercharger and a gas control unit. ... Takeoff power was 700 hp, at an altitude of 1000 m - 730 hp, and at 3800 m - 675 hp
                        As you can see, already in 1935 we even had a superior German engine, albeit not in a cannon modification, but the theme with the fighter was not developed precisely before the Spanish events.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        But donkey for a long time competed with Messer (here again, modifications should be clarified)
                        With all due respect to Polikarpov and his cars, the “competition” to Messers of early-medium modifications could be made by I-16 only a couple of late modes.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        the engines were suitable for the fighter was not. And then, why do you idolize water cooling like a miracle?
                        Well, you idolize the German commanders, and I just know that efficient double-row stars in the USSR appeared only towards the end in the 39th and early 40s, and even somewhat later.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        we somehow moved on the topic of technical re-equipment, although I had in mind the experience of military operations by future military leaders
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        raised the qualifications of individual specialists and military leaders, the maximum regimental level, there was a civil war, and we already had rich experience in such wars, but, unfortunately, it was not useful, and even interfered.

                        Well, and how did one and the same war, under approximately the same conditions, give comparable experience to those who fought with comparable weapons? Unless of course we assume that you “idolize” the Germans, then yes, ours could not learn anything by itself, not like eagles in a mouse form.
                      10. Pedrodepackes 15 January 2020 14: 00 New
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                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        How the intervention of THREE countries may not remain politics

                        This is the policy of those three countries, and not international, there are no agreements, there are no agreements, and the USSR generally built a secret out of it.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Why France did not stand up for the legal government of Spain

                        Therefore, she did not intervene, it is a continuation of the previous link, politics (international), in my opinion, is when an agreement of two or more countries affects the policies and relations of third states, and so, these are small graters with an attempt to impose their model of state other country. As for Czechoslovakia, France simply did not want to fight and got what Churchill said about shame and war.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        until recently, France, together with England, hoped to incite Germany, and ideally together with Poland, against the USSR.

                        Well, I asked you, why not Poland? And what about them together, if she also surrendered Poland, as did Czechoslovakia?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And what, they left brains and experience in Holland and the USSR?

                        No, they developed and improved them there, and then returned to Germany, what’s this for you?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        you forgot about the military, they also dried their brains before the war in Spain?

                        they also developed, for example, in Kazan and Lipetsk, then in Spain, but mainly in Poland and France
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Pz-3-4 were already tanks with anti-shell armor

                        actually Pz III and IV orders were placed back in the distant 35 and 34, respectively, and the war in Spain began in the 36th, this is me to your next link
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Matilda 2 was the logical development of Matilda 1 and the Spanish experience has nothing to do with it, just as it has nothing to do with French sliders with 1-2 towers, depending on the type of tank.

                        So I’ve talked about this, ballistic armor is a natural development of tank building, and not necessarily the Spanish experience.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        there weren’t, but not engines, but fighters.

                        Well, a fighter without a motor does not fly))
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        already in 1935 we had a motor even superior to German

                        only one annoying nuisance, the engine did not approach the fighter, they were made for bombers, alas!
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Messers of early-medium modifications

                        Which ones? Messers of the first modifications failed in Spain, for example, Bf.109 B and C were approximately equal to I-16 (type 5) and inferior to I-16 (type 10), only Emil was able to gain air supremacy, but he, after the war , still caught up with the later versions of Ishakov and successfully opposed them in the north and south at the initial stage of the Second World War
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        you idolize the German commanders

                        here it is not necessary for me to appropriate that which was not.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        I just know that workable double-row stars in the USSR appeared only towards the end in the beginning of 39

                        maybe, but Polikarpov’s fighters, who were recognized as the “king of fighters” in the mid-30s, also flew on a single-row motor?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        you "idolize" the Germans

                        Are you back for yours?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        ours, of course, could not learn anything, not like eagles in mouse form
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        the same war, in approximately the same conditions, with comparable weapons gave different experiences to those who fought?

                        no side could be drawn from the war in Spain for experience that was suitable for WWII, the wrong war was, the army fought against militarized formations, more or less experience was in the company battalion link. If you are so confused
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        mouse eagles

                        then I repeat, look how she “took” Austria and how in Poland they nearly managed to.
                      11. Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 15: 58 New
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                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        until recently, France, together with England, hoped to incite Germany, and ideally together with Poland, against the USSR.
                        Well, I asked you, why not Poland? And what about them together, if she also surrendered Poland, as did Czechoslovakia?
                        What did you ask me about Poland? Why France did not intercede for Czechoslovakia, because it was necessary to arm Hitler and give him additional weapons factories. But she surrendered Poland, because there was no longer any reason to defend it, so as not to weaken Germany in the face of the USSR, and in the hope of making peace with Germany, by the way, it now became clear to me, by the way.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        No, they developed and improved them there, and then returned to Germany, what’s this for you?
                        This is to your earlier thought.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        The Germans ... they built their aircraft from scratch, they had no specialists at that time,

                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        they also developed, for example, in Kazan and Lipetsk, then in Spain, but mainly in Poland and France
                        In Poland and France, they have already tested the EARLY developed tactics and operational developments, created taking into account the Spanish experience. Your words are below, and I agree with them.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        The Germans were running their weapons and specialists there, a worthy opponent would only help in this.

                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        in general, orders for Pz III and IV were placed back in the distant 35 and 34 years, respectively, and the war in Spain began in the 36th
                        It is true, however, until the age of 37 they created single samples and small pre-production batches, and only by the year 38 they began to produce, again, a few series.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        So I’ve talked about this, anti-shell armor is a natural development of tank building

                        The British Matilda was an "infantry" tank, in fact a dead end. Like the French, too. And to consider these tanks "logical development" is a mistake, in my opinion.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        Which ones? Messers of the first modifications failed in Spain, for example, Bf.109 B and C were approximately equal to I-16 (type 5) and inferior to I-16 (type 10), only Emil was able to gain air supremacy, but he, after the war still caught up with later versions of Ishakov
                        Strange, but mod. E indicate the start of production from 38 g., Alright, E so E. However, on the mod. E history of the development of the Me-109 does not end, and already in the 40th year a mod was created. F. but the I-16 reached the ceiling of modernization on the mod. 18 and 24, almost completely inferior to the Me-109F.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        Polikarpov fighters flew on a single-row motor, which was recognized in the mid-30s as the “king of fighters”
                        Sincerely sorry that in connection with the death of N.N. Polikarpov could not confirm this title in the late 30s and at least in the early 40s ..
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        already in 1935 we had a motor even superior to German
                        only one annoying nuisance, the engine did not approach the fighter, they were made for bombers, alas!
                        I myself wrote that the M-100 was not a cannon motor, but why wouldn’t it be a fighter? And this is not even considering the fact that the prototype of the M-100 was the "Spanish-Suiza", and the USSR bought it in the cannon version, just before the events in Spain and acquaintance with the Me-109, this direction was not particularly developed.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        you "idolize" the Germans
                        Are you back for yours?
                        And what is it?))) Not I started it
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        And then, that you idolize water cooling like a miracle
                        For example, I put quotation marks, though once out of two.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        from the war in Spain, experience was not suitable for WWII
                        I don’t even know what to answer, I’ll just remember about the organization of mass air raids and their reflection, the general radiification of Germans by both fighters and tanks, the introduction of ballistic reservation in tank building, even if only domestic, once you insist, a link to two fighters that you tested Germans in Spain and there are probably a lot of things that I missed, and I just don’t know.
                        I repeat this thought: France surrendered Poland, because there was no longer any reason to defend it, so as not to weaken Germany in the face of the USSR, and in the hope of making peace with Germany.
                        And thanks, because I understood this in a dispute with you.
                      12. Pedrodepackes 15 January 2020 17: 43 New
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                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Why France did not intercede for Czechoslovakia, because it was necessary to arm Hitler and give him additional weapons factories.

                        We began by quoting an article from an article stating that France was afraid of Germany’s gain, and Germany had such long-standing interest in France as Alsace and Lorraine. But what interest did France have against the USSR? And after the defeat of the USSR, where would Hitler turn tanks?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        In Poland and France, they have already tested the EARLY developed tactics and operational developments, created taking into account the Spanish experience.

                        What kind? Tank wedges and support for the Yu-87? So they didn’t use this tactic there, then they generally had trouble with tanks.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        until the age of 37 they created single samples and small pre-production batches, and only by the year 38 they began to produce, again, a few series

                        the backwardness of industry affected, but the concept was laid down earlier.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        the history of the development of the Me-109 does not end, and in the 40th year a mod was created. F. but the I-16 reached the ceiling of modernization on the mod. 18 and 24, almost completely inferior to the Me-109F.

                        I don’t argue, by that time the donkey had chosen all his potential, however, our new fighters with the liquid cooling you praised were so inferior to Messer that at one of the GKO meetings at 42 !!! year it was proposed to resume the release of I-16, thank God did not.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        in connection with the death of N.N. Polikarpov could not confirm this title in the late 30s and at least in the early 40s ..

                        in fact, he died in the 44th, but about the rout of his design bureau in the late 30s, this is a separate song.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        however, why should he not be a fighter?
                        on the website
                        http://www.airwar.ru есть подробное описание мытарств Поликарпова с И-17 и его спаркой ДИ-7, в кратце, тяжёлая ВМГ нарушала центровку, а малая мощность двигателя требовала большего диаметра винта, следовательно, высокого угла фюзеляжа относительно земли. И вообще это всё происходило в 34-35 г. как только промышленность приемлемы двигатель, так сделали самолёт.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        I did not start it

                        yes you still sing songs to this engine
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        I’ll just remember about the organization of mass air raids and their reflection,

                        doctrine of the Douai, long before Spain
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        general Germans' radioification of both fighters and tanks, the introduction of ballistic reservation in tank building

                        the usual development of technology, if you delve into history, you can find the roots long before Spain, as with tanks
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        France surrendered Poland, because it was no longer worth defending it, so as not to weaken Germany in the face of the USSR, and in the hope of reconciling with Germany.
                        And thanks, because I understood this in a dispute with you.

                        do not thank, these are your speculations and they are wrong
                      13. Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 17: 47 New
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                        No thanks! I insist!
                      14. Vladimir_2U 16 January 2020 04: 19 New
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                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        We started by quoting from an article that France was afraid of Germany’s gain
                        And here it is, we started with what I wrote:
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Oh, the Antantists could have shouted at the Poles, but they had to strengthen Hitler. "Peacekeepers" Russophobian
                        what you wrote on:
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        France was afraid to support Czechoslovakia alone (without the support of other Western countries).
                        The French may not be Russophobes, but they fed Hitler keeping up with the British.
                        And then you all wrote about the fact that France was terribly afraid of Germany. And I wrote that I was so afraid that I didn’t interfere in Spain, did nothing to save Czechoslovakia, and declaring war on Germany dozed off at its borders, because a large part of the German army was in Poland.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        What kind? Tank wedges and support for the Yu-87? So they didn’t use this tactic there, then they generally had trouble with tanks
                        Attacking military columns, for example, is just the case when they learned from someone else's experience. The unsuccessful actions of Italian and Soviet tank crews are also an example of the learned experience of others. Anyway, the USSR also learned a lot, whatever you wrote, here is an example, not the only one:
                        The role of air defense in the operations of ground forces increased significantly, which confirmed the defeat of the Italian expeditionary force near Guadalajara (1937). Republican aircraft greatly influenced the outcome of the battle. On this basis, in order to protect the infantry from attack air raids by the command of the Red Army, it was recommended that separate air defense batteries be given to infantry formations

                        https://aviator.guru/blog/43865340559/Sovetskaya-aviatsiya-v-Ispanii
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        the backwardness of industry affected, but the concept was laid down earlier.
                        The backwardness of German industry ?! A bunch of changes and improvements the reason for the delay in the release of Pz-3-4.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        our new fighters with praised by you with liquid cooling they were so inferior to Messer that at one of the GKO meetings in 42
                        Do not attribute praise to me, and I will not attribute deification to you. I do not urge you to re-read the comments, you still rip out of them only what is beneficial to you, your right of course, but not as zealously. I just remind you that I wrote about the engine available in the USSR in 35, suitable for installation on a fighter, and even more powerful than the German slightly later engine. But this topic was intensively developed only after Spain, thereby losing time.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        doctrine of the Douai, long before Spain

                        And at least somehow tested this doctrine to Spain? The Japanese in China do not count, the experience of the "Asians" in Europe did not interest anyone.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        France surrendered Poland, because it was no longer worth defending it, so as not to weaken Germany in the face of the USSR, and in the hope of reconciling with Germany.
                        And thanks, because I understood this in a dispute with you.

                        do not thank, these are your speculations and they are wrong

                        It’s a pity, but they are confirmed by events, just something that was not clear to me until now.
                      15. Pedrodepackes 16 January 2020 07: 27 New
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                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        The French may not be Russophobes, but they fed Hitler keeping up with the British.

                        Are there facts other than unfounded allegations?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And then you all wrote about the fact that France was terribly afraid of Germany.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And I wrote that I was so afraid that I did not interfere in Spain, did nothing to save Czechoslovakia, and declared war on Germany dozed off at its borders

                        and how do these links contradict each other?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Attacking military columns, for example, is just the case when they learned from someone else's experience.

                        This technique was used throughout almost the entire WWI, with the exception of the first year, maybe tell me what was new there?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        On this basis, in order to protect the infantry from attack air raids by the command of the Red Army, it was recommended that separate air defense batteries be given to infantry formations

                        And this confirms what I wrote earlier, the USSR practically did not take anything out of this war, I hope you will not argue that the air defense in our troops was absent almost until the end of the Second World War.
                        In the initial period of the war, the main load was borne by French and Spanish Republic aviation pilots, who were armed with Italian and French aircraft.
                        Please immediately help us with weapons and aircraft. Brotherly your hiral. ” Following this, the French government began supplying vehicles through the Toulouse airfield, removing weapons from them to comply with a formal ban on the transfer of military equipment to the "republican" government of Spain.
                        this is on your link, you’re already contradicting yourself
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        The backwardness of German industry ?!

                        yes, and what surprises you? in the 34th everything was just beginning
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        A bunch of changes and improvements the reason for the delay in the release of Pz-3-4.

                        and they were associated with the improvement of technology, the tank industry was only emerging after the Versailles bans.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        I’ll just remind you that I wrote about the engine available in the USSR in 35, suitable for installation on a fighter

                        I already wrote to you that it was not suitable for our fighters, read about the work of Polikarpov with I-17
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        The Japanese in China do not count, the experience of the "Asians" in Europe did not interest anyone.

                        again an unfounded statement, the USSR even sent advisers there, and together with the USA and pilots with planes.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        but they are confirmed by events, just something that was not clear to me

                        I don’t understand what events you write about, but continue to remain in your ignorance. Honestly, I’m already tired of crushing the water in the mortar. You may not answer my questions, I approximately know what you will write. This is not your topic, maybe you should embroider a cross-stitch? hi
                      16. Vladimir_2U 16 January 2020 08: 58 New
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                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        And this confirms what I wrote earlier, the USSR practically did not take anything out of this war, I hope you will not argue that the air defense in our troops was absent almost until the end of the Second World War
                        Air defense was weak not just because of the non-application of experience, but because of the lack of a developed industrial and design base for the normal mass production of anti-aircraft guns. The military leadership perfectly understood the importance of army air defense.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        Please immediately help us with weapons and aircraft. Brotherly your hiral. ” Following this, the French government began supplying vehicles through the Toulouse airfield, removing weapons from them to comply with a formal ban on the transfer of military equipment to the "republican" government of Spain
                        From the same source:
                        In subsequent periods, the French government had to change its attitude towards what was happening in the neighboring country.

                        It must be understood that the supply of French equipment was not of a mass nature. These were, at best, ten cars of the same type per month. In August 1936 alone, 30 Dewoitine D.371 fighters were delivered immediately.

                        and secondly, the naval blockade and the unstable position of France impeded the delivery of aid.

                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        This technique was used throughout almost the entire WWI, with the exception of the first year, maybe tell me what was new there?

                        Yes, but I see no objection to tanks.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        I already wrote to you that it was not suitable for our fighters, read about the work of Polikarpov with I-17
                        Here is an example of your speculation. And here are the speculations of versed people:
                        At first, it developed after I-16 with a difference of about one year, but time passed and the time gap in the fate of two cars steadily increased .... Avods are building I-16, the Chief Designer promises to give 1937 km on this machine in 520. / h The question is, why another new fighter, which does not promise significant advantages at the moment? In a word, there was no particular interest in the I-17 in the Soviet aircraft industry

                        http://www.airpages.ru/ru/i17.shtml
                        Only with the advent of the M-105 engines and in anticipation of the M-106, and then the M-107, in 1939 did the full-fledged work on creating aircraft for these power plants begin
                        It was the Me-109 that made us again pay attention to the development of this engine, but time was lost. And the words about the severity of the VMG and the alignment are stupid, the alignment easily changes even by lengthening the engine mount, even the tail end. And "less power requires more screw" in general beyond
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        heavy VMG violated the alignment, and low engine power required a larger screw diameter, therefore, a high fuselage angle relative to the ground

                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        again an unfounded statement, the USSR even sent advisers there, and together with the USA and pilots with planes.
                        Did the Germans, French and British send their pilots and planes there? Or at least advisers and observers? US sent? Selling planes is not the same as sending. Like an individual mercenary, not the same as an adviser.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        I don’t understand what events you write

                        In the article, what was it all about? You reproached me with inattention, and here on you "I do not understand about what events". About the surrender of Czechoslovakia, we are talking about, and about the subsequent surrender of Poland, although this is already from the comments. And France passed them along with England, but there was only one reason: the desire to set Hitler on the USSR. Although I agree, France did this not out of Russophobia.
                      17. Pedrodepackes 16 January 2020 09: 47 New
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                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        You may not answer my questions, I approximately know what you will write.

                        I see, you didn’t force the comment to the end, okay, I’ll answer again
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        The military leadership perfectly understood the importance of army air defense.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Air defense was weak, not just because of the non-use of experience, but because of the lack of a developed industrial and design base

                        why is it
                        military leadership
                        it didn’t require starting production from the experience of the Spanish war, because they also learned how to make motors and how to produce tanks with bulletproof armor.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        and secondly, the naval blockade and the unstable position of France impeded the delivery of aid.

                        however, it turned out, and not as you claimed about her absence
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        however, I don’t see any objections to tanks
                        I already wrote about tanks, read carefully
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And here are the speculations of versed people:
                        Now, if you read the "speculation" further, you figured out this topic, otherwise you pulled out one phrase and decided that you had become a specialist
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        the alignment is easily changed even by lengthening the engine mount, even the tail.
                        yes, I feel you still have that “special” you can explain, at least for yourself, why even Ishak, even the “Seagull” had such a short and thick fuselage? Do you know anything about the then concept of building a fighter by Polikarpov?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Did the Germans send there
                        where to? To China? No, but why? By the way, did the Americans send, did they hear about the Flying Tigers group?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Selling planes is not the same as sending. Like an individual mercenary, not the same as an adviser.
                        my young friend, and what is the difference? Anticipating your answer, I’ll say right away that no one gave away, the USSR also sold, and the work of advisers, pilots and specialists was paid for by the host according to a separate price list, as well as delivery by ships, railway transport, as well as for treating the wounded and compensating the families of the deceased. Once again I was tired of this educational program. I don’t get money for teaching and spending time.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Clearly, West’s support for Hitler is a myth for you.
                        this is your only clever idea in this correspondence. I single out specifically for you:
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        You may not answer my questions, I approximately know what you will write. Not yours this topic
                      18. Vladimir_2U 16 January 2020 10: 51 New
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                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        You may not answer my questions, I approximately know what you will write. Not yours this topic
                        Is it prohibited by the rules of the site? Since when?
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        military leadership
                        It didn’t require to start production according to the experience of the Spanish war, because they also learned how to make engines and tanks with bulletproof armor
                        Already on my part, educational program on public services. beginnings. All anti-aircraft guns in the Red Army were adopted not earlier than 1938, including ZPU DShK. This late adoption was a consequence of very weak design work until 36-37. Another date match.
                        The pre-war industry of the USSR was not able to fully equip the troops with the necessary anti-aircraft armament, the air defense of the USSR for the 22.06.1941 year was equipped with anti-aircraft machine-gun installations of only 61%.
                        It was the late development and putting into production of the cause of the disarmament of the Red Army anti-aircraft weapons, and not the underestimation of their role by the leadership of the Red Army, as you all oppressed.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        yes, I feel you still have that “special” you can explain, at least for yourself, why even Ishak, even the “Seagull” had such a short and thick fuselage? Do you know anything about the then concept of building a fighter by Polikarpov?
                        It also changes by moving the wing forward to shift the aerodynamic focus to the center of mass, which was the main reason for the high maneuverability of Polikarpov’s machines (and low stability, at the same time), and the short fuselage is secondary here. So I know and understand something.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        Did the Germans send there
                        where to? To China? No, but why is it
                        Namely, the experience of the "Asians" was not interesting to Europe.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        Americans, by the way, sent, about the group "Flying Tigers" heard
                        Well, yes, already in 1941, this is called late ignition.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        The USSR also sold, and the work of advisers, pilots and specialists was paid by the host

                        It was only done on a state basis, and not by a handful of volunteers. even the most beautiful. It’s just that the sale and delivery and support together with skillful and motivated operators are completely different things, but you don’t understand the difference. I'm afraid it's not yours.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        You may not answer my questions, I approximately know what you will write. Not yours this topic

                        If I were younger, about 15-20 years old, I would write that this is a drain, but I will not write this.
                      19. Pedrodepackes 16 January 2020 11: 40 New
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                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        This late adoption was a consequence of very weak design work until 36-37. Another date match.

                        and the experience of the first world does not count? Or just in Spain stormed the columns?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        All anti-aircraft guns in the Red Army were adopted not earlier than 1938, including ZPU DShK.

                        From the scientific literature:
                        The gun was adopted under the name "20-mm automatic anti-aircraft and anti-tank gun mod. 1930 ".
                        The 25-K 72 mm automatic anti-aircraft gun was developed based on the Swiss 20 mm Oerlikon gun in 1940. In addition to the basic gun "72-K" in 1944-1945. its twin version “94-KM” was produced
                        The 37-mm 1939-K automatic anti-aircraft gun of 61 was developed on the basis of the 40-mm Swedish Bofors gun.
                        Considering that these guns were based on foreign developments, we conclude that, firstly, not from the age of 38, and secondly, that they were copied quickly during the year and that only 61-K can be pulled over to Spanish events, but there can influence and China and Hassan. In general, it turns out that there were no design efforts, and there was a place to be a simple copy.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        it is not at all underestimating their role by the leadership of the Red Army, as you are all oppressed.

                        where about underestimation? Or quote or you are the usual tro-lo-lo.))
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        to shift the aerodynamic focus to the center of mass, which was the main reason for the high maneuverability of Polikarpov’s cars

                        partially mastered, but
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        the short fuselage is secondary here

                        how secondary it is when you are here whirling about lengthening the engine mount or the tail, which together, by the way, affects the center of mass and, accordingly, the location of the aerodynamic focus. In practice, this is a complete rearrangement of the fighter, increasing aerodynamic drag and increasing its mass, and this, with a weak engine, the Arctic fox of the whole concept.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Namely, the experience of the "Asians" was not interesting to Europe.

                        Did Europe itself tell you this? And, mind you, Asians fighting on American and Soviet planes. under the leadership of Soviet and American advisers, by the way, fighting there since 1938. This is for you
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        called late ignition

                        "Flying tigers" are already the consequences of the actions of these advisers
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        It was only done on a state basis, and not by a handful of volunteers
                        laughing laughing yeah, a bunch of volunteers gathered a bunch of expensive planes, spare parts, weapons and went in a bunch to fight.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        not skillful and not motivated
                        kindergarten with drums
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        If I were younger, 15-20 years

                        Mom would drive you to school from the computer
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        would write that it is a drain

                        Yes, yes, the drain was your withdrawal of the topic from gaining experience by commanding personnel in Spain on minor disputes about the technical rearmament of armies (very controversial).
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        in fact, not so much, the maximum level of the regimental level increased the qualifications of individual specialists and military leaders, the war was civil there, and we already had rich experience in such wars, but, unfortunately, it was not useful, and even interfered
                      20. Vladimir_2U 16 January 2020 12: 26 New
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                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        The gun was adopted under the name "20-mm automatic anti-aircraft and anti-tank gun mod. 1930

                        That's how I knew!
                        On November 1, 1936, the Red Army was armed with 13x20-mm guns of the model of 1930 on wheeled carriages and 18x20-mm guns of the model of 1930 installed on ZIS-6 vehicles. In addition, there were 8 training guns on wheeled carriages.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        Considering that these tools were based on foreign developments, we conclude that, firstly, not from the age of 38, and secondly, they were copied quickly during the year and only 61-K can be pulled over to Spanish events, but there can influence both China and Hassan
                        And why such a conclusion, this is speculation, not a conclusion. On the basis of developments, this does not mean that they did not require design efforts, not to mention the introduction into production.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        when you wander about lengthening the engine mount or the tail, which together, incidentally, affects the center of mass and, accordingly, the location of the aerodynamic focus
                        Did you cry about
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        in short, a heavy VMG violated alignment
                        And I just showed that such a problem is not a problem at all, and certainly not on the I-17.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        Europe itself told you this.
                        Did she tell you something else? Is it not personally?
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        "Flying tigers" are already the consequences of the actions of these advisers
                        In 38, it only reached the adviser, and I recall that in 1941 they only organized it.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        yeah, a bunch of volunteers gathered a bunch of expensive planes, spare parts, weapons and went in a bunch to fight
                        Until 1941, it was, with the exception of the technical side provided by China, and not counting the help of the USSR.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        kindergarten with drums
                        Well, advisers from the USSR are your kindergarten. So my assumptions about the idolization of the German eagles-commanders by you are not unfounded.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        If I were younger, 15-20 years
                        Mom would drive you to school from the computer
                        Which school, on the potty, of course. You, from the nursing home, cannot understand this already.
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        the drain was your withdrawal of the topic from gaining experience by commanding personnel in Spain to minor disputes about the technical rearmament of armies (very controversial).
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        in fact, not so much, the maximum level of the regimental level increased the qualifications of individual specialists and military leaders, the war was civil there, and we already had rich experience in such wars, but, unfortunately, it was not useful, and even interfered

                        In fact, you wrote this first:
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        The Germans were running their weapons and specialists there, a worthy opponent would only help in this.
                        Or then, in response to this:
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        But France did not want to run in its weapons and specialists? The USSR, for example, has learned a lot from the war in Spain. Grind the same German experts? An excellent opportunity without getting into a full-scale war, since Hitler was so afraid, as was the case with Czechoslovakia.
                        began to wag intensely
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        The USSR, for example, has learned a lot from the war in Spain.

                        in fact, not so much, the maximum regimental level raised the qualifications of individual specialists and military leaders
                        Your subsequent denial of the fact that the USSR has learned much valuable from the Spanish experience, is only your speculation. Because even though the war was civil, it was against a fairly large and well-equipped enemy’s most modern equipment and weapons at that time. But you either do not understand this, or pretend that you do not understand.
                      21. Pedrodepackes 16 January 2020 13: 13 New
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                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And why such a conclusion, this is speculation, not a conclusion. On the basis of developments, this does not mean that they did not require design efforts, not to mention the introduction into production.

                        By the mid-1930s (this means until the year 35 inclusive) the absence of automatic anti-aircraft guns in the army and navy became completely intolerable, and therefore the country's leadership accelerated work in this direction. In 1935, the decree of the Council of Labor and Defense B. G. Shpitalnom and plant them. Kalinina was commissioned by the end of the year to develop a 37-mm automatic gun.
                        At the end of 1937 at the factory number 8 named. Kalinina made the first prototype of a 45-mm automatic anti-aircraft gun, which received the factory index ZIK-45 (49-K)
                        In January 1938, KB plant them. Kalinin, under the leadership of M. N. Loginov, it was proposed to create an automatic anti-aircraft gun on the basis of 49-K 37-mm. The new gun, which received the ZIK-37 (61-K) index, was designed in a short time - as early as October 10, 1938, a prototype gun was sent for field tests. In 1939, the gun was adopted under the official designation "37-mm automatic anti-aircraft gun mod. 1939 ”and launched into serial production.
                        here you and where the legs grow from the MZA RKKA, and about the speed of development and implementation in production. When will you start paying me for educational program?
                      22. Vladimir_2U 16 January 2020 13: 56 New
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                        Likbez on tearing quotes?
                        In 1935, the decree of the Council of Labor and Defense B. G. Shpitalnom and plant them. Kalinina was commissioned by the end of the year to develop a 37-mm automatic gun. In 1936, a prototype series of 20 guns mounted on vehicles and in the tower of the T-26 tank was manufactured.
                        The test results showed a number of flaws in the system, and therefore it was not accepted for service
                        [8].
                        That's all about this gun, for a tick it was done only when they got down to business seriously, in 37, only then it went more or less.
                        At the end of 1937 at the factory to them. Kalinin was made the first prototype of a 45-mm automatic anti-aircraft gun, which received the factory index ZIK-45 ... ... At the beginning of 1938 the gun passed factory tests .. In 1939, the gun was adopted under the official name "45 mm automatic anti-aircraft gun arr. 1939 ... plant them. Kalinina received an order for the production of 1940 guns in 190 (190, not 19, not even 000, but 1900 in this !!)
                        in connection with which in January 1938 the Design Bureau of the plant named after Kalinin, under the leadership of M. N. Loginov, it was proposed to create an automatic anti-aircraft gun on the basis of 49-K 37-mm. The new gun, which received the ZIK-37 index (later changed to 61-K), was designed in a short time - on October 10, 1938, a prototype gun was sent for field tests ... In 1939, the gun was put into service under the official designation "37 mm automatic anti-aircraft gun mod. 1939 "and launched into serial production
                        Here is the first mass machine and its development began in 37 no earlier !!!
                      23. Pedrodepackes 16 January 2020 14: 03 New
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                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        That's all about this gun, for a tick it was done only when they got down to business seriously, in 37

                        here again your speculation, where did the data about the tick come from? And why since the 37th seriously? Is it written there?
                        the absence of automatic anti-aircraft guns in the army and navy became completely intolerant, in connection with which the country's leadership were accelerated work in this direction. In 1935 Decree of the Council of Labor and Defense
                        do these words tell you anything? Until the 35th year, work was done for show (maybe). Since 1935, they accelerated.
                      24. Pedrodepackes 16 January 2020 14: 16 New
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                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Here is the first mass machine and its development began in 37 no earlier !!!

                        and ... I do not understand your calf delight in coinciding dates?
                        In 1935 year Decree of the Council of Labor and Defense B. G. Shpitalnom and plant them. Kalinina was commissioned by the end of the year to develop a 37-mm automatic gun.
                        In 1935, the task was set, Karl !! Is it development in the drawings, then the production of test copies, their testing, revision, and then launching into the series, did they themselves rub me into difficulties in production or does it extend to anti-aircraft guns?
                      25. Vladimir_2U 16 January 2020 14: 41 New
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                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        In 1935, the decree of the Council of Labor and Defense B. G. Shpitalnom and plant them. Kalinina was commissioned by the end of the year to develop a 37-mm automatic gun. In 1936, a prototype series of 20 guns mounted on vehicles and in the tower of the T-26 tank was manufactured.
                        The test results showed a number of flaws in the system, and therefore it was not accepted for service
                        Do these words tell you something? it was not accepted into service!!!
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        and ... I do not understand your calf delight in coinciding dates?

                        Where did you see the delight?
                        Quote: Pedrodepackes
                        In 1935, the task was set, Carl
                        Once again, if you suddenly flooded your eyes,
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        The test results showed a number of flaws in the system, and therefore it was not accepted for service
                        I, unlike you, do not tear apart quotes, even if they do not quite suit me.
                      26. Pedrodepackes 16 January 2020 14: 48 New
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                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Do these words tell you something? it was not accepted for service !!!

                        so what, but do you want the bad option to be adopted, or do you think that if there are no reasons to accept, then let it hang in warehouses for now?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        The test results showed a number of flaws in the system, and therefore it was not accepted for service
                        I, unlike you, do not tear apart quotes, even if they do not quite suit me.

                        what does this have to do with the Spanish experience, the first option did not work out, and here again, the war in Spain, let’s take an unprepared anti-aircraft gun for service. So yes? Read your quotes carefully
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Test results showed a number of system flaws, in connection with which it was not accepted into service
                        not because of a lack of experience in Spain. I, unlike you, read and comprehend quotes.
                      27. Vladimir_2U 16 January 2020 15: 01 New
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                        Oh, you thinker. But what about the failure to adopt? You didn’t finish it right away? As it turns out, you still do not disdain falsification.
                      28. Pedrodepackes 16 January 2020 15: 59 New
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                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        But what about the failure to adopt? You didn’t finish it right away?

                        Did we really discuss the problems of adoption? We had a debate whether the experience of the war in Spain served as the reasons for the revival of the MZA, I showed with this quote that it wasn’t, because the decision to develop automatic guns was made a year before the start of this war. And about the failure to adopt, this is just a factor against your speculation that it was adopted in 1937 due to the Spanish events, and it turns out just not because of this. laughing
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        you also do not disdain falsification.

                        falsification - a fake, issued as a real thing, a change in the type or property of objects.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        why didn’t you finish
                        You see the difference, and why I didn’t finish it, I already explained. Now I finally see your essence of the small troll. As expected, I left the topic on the individual.
          2. Pedrodepackes 16 January 2020 13: 44 New
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            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            And I just showed that such a problem is not a problem at all, and certainly not on the I-17

            Did you report to Polikarpovna about this? And then he, poor fellow, was tormented without you with air-cooled engines.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            In 38, only the adviser realized

            those. you acknowledge that they were and were before the Second World War))
            The Republic of China did little to oppose the power of the Japanese war machine. In China itself, there was practically no developed aviation industry; factories were assembling foreign aircraft from car kits. Aviation at the beginning of the war included about six hundred aircraft, including three hundred and five fighters. Fighter aircraft was represented by the American "Curtiss"
            these deliveries were official. During the war, more than a hundred Curtiss Hawk III fighters were delivered. But you again take the conversation aside, any war was covered and analyzed, especially since there was a growing Japan.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Well, advisers from the USSR are your kindergarten.

            actually it’s about you, advisers and pilots showed themselves heroes there, you don’t translate arrows.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            In fact, you wrote this

            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            began to wag intensely

            you turn on the mind, mixed everything in a heap, no need to jump on topics, separate the flies from cutlets and get a logical picture. Like a kindergarten, damn it!
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Your subsequent denial of the fact that the USSR has learned much valuable from the Spanish experience, is only your speculation.

            so refute, tell us that the USSR has acquired new in terms of strategy and tactics.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            although the war was civilian, but against a sufficiently large and well-equipped enemy’s most modern at that time models of equipment and weapons

            that's it, at that moment, and what happened at that time, tankettes (Pz-I in the amount of 134 pcs. the arm cannot be called a tank) and armored cars, which had proved their complete unsuitability in the Finnish campaign, and the Germans were fighting in the Second World War enemy troops with tank wedges with the active support of the Yu-87 (called Blitzkrieg). Well, what's the experience? The same civil war of 18-22.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            You, from the nursing home, cannot understand this already.

            we, in the nursing home, at least read smart books, and do not draw knowledge from conjectures obtained from useless disputes on websites. You. by the way. they didn’t answer why France strengthened Germany? Do you think that Deladier did not understand that after the alleged defeat of the USSR, Germany would go to select Alsace and Lorraine, at least. This time I'm waiting for the answer to the question.
          3. Vladimir_2U 16 January 2020 14: 26 New
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            Quote: Pedrodepackes
            And I just showed that such a problem is not a problem at all, and certainly not on the I-17

            Did you report to Polikarpovna about this? And then he, poor fellow, suffered without you with air-cooled engines
            Well, bring problems with the centering of the I-17 except your speculation!
            Quote: Pedrodepackes
            In 38, only the adviser realized

            those. you acknowledge that they were and were before the second world
            Typical attention span, but after the start of the Spanish events, because we are talking about them!
            Quote: Pedrodepackes
            During the war more than a hundred Curtiss Hawk III fighters were delivered
            And what does this prove? Where have I denied selling technology to China? Show me where?
            Quote: Pedrodepackes
            (Pz-I in the amount of 134 pieces doesn’t raise a hand to call a tank) and armored cars that proved to be completely unsuitable during the Finnish campaign, and the Germans fought in the Second World War, covering enemy troops with tank wedges with the active support of Yu-87 (Blitzkrieg is called) Well, what's the experience? The same civil war of 18-22.
            Enough mass use of the T-26, I-16, I-15, SB, and this is only on the part of the legitimate government, this is no experience, of course, for anyone, you deny the obvious.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            It’s just that the sale and delivery and support together with skillful and motivated operators are completely different things, but you don’t understand the difference. I'm afraid it's not yours.
            Your answer to this:
            Quote: Pedrodepackes
            not skillful and not motivated
            kindergarten with drums
            A tattered quote and an extremely mixed answer to it. So what you wrote about our advisers.
            Quote: Pedrodepackes
            In fact, you wrote this

            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            began to wag intensely

            you turn on the mind, mixed everything in a heap, no need to jump on topics, separate the flies from cutlets and get a logical picture. Like a kindergarten, damn it!
            Here it is porridge, not logically linked, and just an attempt to pull and withdraw from the topic.
            Quote: Pedrodepackes
            tell us that the USSR has acquired new in terms of strategy and tactics.

            Here he is moving away from the topic, I haven’t written about strategy anywhere and am not going to write, but the intensification of work on aviation and anti-aircraft artillery and tanks alone, based on Spanish experience, has given the Red Army a lot, whatever you want.
            Quote: Pedrodepackes
            You. by the way. they didn’t answer why France strengthened Germany? Do you think that Deladier did not understand that after the alleged defeat of the USSR, Germany would go to select Alsace and Lorraine, at least. This time I'm waiting for an answer to a question
            It does not matter what Daladier understood, and what he did not understand, the result is obvious. And I already gave the answer more than once, you just pretend that you do not understand it.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            And France passed them along with England, but there was only one reason: the desire to set Hitler on the USSR. Although I agree, France did this not out of Russophobia.
            Read it again, letters may form.
          4. Pedrodepackes 16 January 2020 14: 41 New
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            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Well, bring problems with the centering of the I-17 except your speculation!

            read about this plane yourself, at the same time you will understand. why he didn’t go into the series, I’m tired of doing educational work, I gave you the link.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            but after the start of the Spanish events, because we are talking about them!

            so what, I mean that the wars were analyzed, even in Asia.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Where have I denied selling technology to China?

            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            It was only done on a state basis, and not by a handful of volunteers. even the most beautiful. Just selling and supplying and supporting, together with skillful and motivated operators, completely different things
            you wrote to me as an example of the USSR, which is on the state against the USA, which is on an amateur basis.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Enough mass application

            enough for what? I wrote, the experience of the company battalion link, give me an example of the introduction of the mechanized corps on the offensive? You can’t, there are so many tanks there weren’t there at once.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            not skillful and not motivated
            kindergarten with drums
            A tattered quote and an extremely mixed answer to it.

            that is, it was ours that were inept and unmotivated? As I understand it, you wrote about
            skillful and motivated
            these are our advisers, do not tear out quotes, but about the drums, I’m talking about your conclusion in general.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            just an attempt to pull and withdraw from the topic.

            just the lack of arguments. I already noticed this, first from the topic of the experience of personnel on technology, now we are finding fault with commas, well, the usual course of an amateur or a troll. Choose.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            I haven’t written about strategy anywhere and am not going to write

            so then what is the argument?
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            intensification of work on aviation and anti-aircraft artillery and tanks
            about
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            intensification of aviation and anti-aircraft artillery
            the question is resolved, the ears of facts are still burning, and multi-tower tanks are also Spain’s experience?
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            No matter what Daladier understood,

            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            And France passed them along with England, but there was only one reason: the desire to set Hitler on the USSR.

            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Read it again
            and tell me where it came from, the reasons for this desire, here is my question
          5. Vladimir_2U 16 January 2020 14: 56 New
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            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            It’s just that the sale and delivery and support together with skillful and motivated operators are completely different things, but you don’t understand the difference

            Quote: Pedrodepackes
            not skillful and not motivated
            kindergarten with drums
            Oeyeyey, you even copied this quote and gave it as mine ?! A new level is broken!
            A set of words, a set of words, lo!
            Quote: Pedrodepackes
            multi-tower tanks is also an experience of Spain
            Here's how not getting away from the topic and not pulling? And here are multi-tower tanks? Which, German, English or Soviet? Why did you drag them in? As well, and much more?
            Quote: Pedrodepackes
            and tell me where it came from, the reasons for this desire
            Here is this number, and also the reasons for the desire to report to you, about the lip-filling machine in the know?
      2. Vladimir_2U 17 January 2020 05: 21 New
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        Conclusions are strategic, operational and tactical technical!
        The fall of the Spanish Republic was one of the signals (although by no means the most important) for Stalin about the need to change his foreign policy strategy. It has become visible evidence of the collapse of the collective security strategy. At the same time, the first battle in the confrontation was given in Spain, which would end in the collapse of the fascist bloc in 1945.

        Messages from Spain had a significant impact not only on the technical development of aviation, but also on understanding the strategic aspects of its application. So, Major Grechnev’s report said: “In our exercises and maneuvers, heavy aircraft are used mainly for large targets in the deep rear, without interaction with fighter aircraft, since the radius of the latter allows this interaction to be carried out only in areas located near the front line . The experience of the war in Spain showed that the material part in the arsenal of heavy aircraft will not allow this task to be carried out. ”28

        According to an employee of the Soviet special services, participant in the Spanish war, Ilya Starinov, again it was Spain that became the starting point for the modern type of guerrilla sabotage

        It is also necessary to add that from here, and partly from China, where the freshly acquired “Spanish” experience was used, the USSR extracted for itself the concept of participation in local conflicts, when formally without interfering in anything, the Union sent its military and technical specialists, as well military equipment

        According to the British historian R. Wiley, not Poland, but Spain became the first place to apply the Blitzkrieg strategy. The first mention on the German side of the term “blitzkrieg” appeared in May 1939 in a note by General George Thomas to the OKW headquarters [788]. From offensive points, Colonel Tom and General Richtorten evaluated the coordinated attacks of diving bombers and tanks in Spain since 1938. General Tom developed the tactics developed in Spain on the fields of World War II, where he was, as you know, the main adviser to General Guderian

        The transition of the Spanish Republic from the end of 1937 to the beginning of 1938 to defense on almost all fronts prompted the Soviet military leadership to pay more attention to this particular tactical maneuver, although the concept of a future war as a whole was correctly defined [808].

        The Soviet Union, having full information about the advantages and disadvantages of its own and foreign military equipment in Spain, made a number of fair conclusions about the need for its modernization, work began in this direction. But a number of reasons of domestic political, military-strategic, economic nature did not allow to realize what was planned before the start of World War II
        . Read in your "nursing home", maybe someone will help from the historical "insanity".
      3. The comment was deleted.
      4. Pedrodepackes 17 January 2020 09: 02 New
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        Eh, how do you rest it does not give a fiasco in the dispute, go all night, quotes pulled laughing
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        became one of the signals (although far from the most important) for Stalin about the need to change the foreign policy strategy. It has become visible evidence of the collapse of the collective security strategy.

        what is it here for? We talked about the foreign policy strategy of the USSR? Is it up to heaps and greater importance?
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        heavy aircraft are mainly used for large targets in the deep rear, without interaction with fighter aircraft, since the radius of the latter allows this interaction to be carried out only in areas located close to the front line.
        well, and tell me about the escort of our fighters by the fighters during the bombing of strategic targets in the far rear during the Second World War, it will be interesting to listen, moreover, the more or less suitable fighter for these purposes, the La-11 was constructed in 1946, is it not too late for generalization of experience?
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        The experience of the war in Spain showed that the material part, which is in the arsenal of heavy aircraft, will not allow this task to be carried out. ”
        and...? TB-3 - Soviet heavy bomber began operation 1932 Pe-8 (TB-7) - Soviet four-engine long-range heavy bomber first flight 1936. The task for the development of the TB-7 project was received on June 26, 1934 (whatever you would searched for mythical coincidences of dates). DB-3 (IL-4) - long-range bomber, the first flight in 1935. Yer-2 (DB-240) - long-range bomber, the beginning of operation in 1940 could be pulled over the ears of the Spanish war, but the trouble is done it is based on the Steel-7 passenger plane, which went into testing at the end of 1936. That's all we got to the beginning of the Second World War in long-range aviation, and in such militarized quantities that I had to use the Lend-Lease B-25 and domestic Li-2 as long-range bombers. Where is the experience of Spain here?
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        According to an employee of the Soviet special services, participant in the Spanish war, Ilya Starinov, again it was Spain that became the starting point for the modern type of guerrilla sabotage
        perhaps, but we, at least I, spoke about operational-tactical experience from the regiment and above. In addition, all the prepared bases for sabotage and partisan operations, together with trained personnel, were destroyed in the late 30s as a result of the activities of Beria.
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        The USSR extracted for itself the concept of participation in local conflicts, when without formally intervening in anything, the Union sent its military and technical specialists, as well as military equipment
        same thing, see above. In addition, the USSR already had such experience in the Weimar Republic, the Hungarian Socialist Republic, but where did the experience of secret supplies of weapons and equipment, as well as specialists and advisers to Spain come from?
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        According to the British historian R. Wiley, not Poland, but Spain became the first place to apply the Blitzkrieg strategy.
        the opinion of one person is not the last resort, besides the "British scientists", they are such scientists ...
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        The first mention on the German side of the term “blitzkrieg” appeared in May 1939 in a note by General George Thomas to the OKW headquarters
        here even the Germans themselves talk about it. And one of the first attempts to conduct a blitzkrieg was made by German troops during the First World War on the Western Front according to the Schlieffen plan (this is not the mythical Colonel Tom and General Richforten.)
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        From offensive points, Colonel Tom and General Richtorten evaluated the coordinated attacks of diving bombers and tanks in Spain since 1938. General Tom developed the tactics developed in Spain on the fields of World War II, where he was, as you know, the main adviser to General Guderian
        Here are two more unknown characters whose traces I have not found on the Internet, give at least a link where you found them. In addition, how they ensured coordinated attacks by diving bombers and tanks in Spain, when the Germans had a cat crying (and it’s difficult to call the Pz-I a tank), and even fewer diving bombers, five Ju 87B-1 aircraft were sent to Spain in September 1938, where they replaced the triple Ju 87A-1. How can I organize a blitzkrieg with three planes? I don’t know.
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        The transition of the Spanish Republic from late 1937 to early 1938 to defense on almost all fronts prompted the Soviet military leadership to pay more attention to this particular tactical maneuver, although the concept of a future war as a whole was correctly defined.
        What is it like? In general, we were going to "... a little blood on foreign territory", the main maneuver of the offensive, defense and withdrawal were seen as alarmist moods, so we did not win a single defensive battle in the first year of the war, where is the Spanish experience?
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        The Soviet Union, having full information about the advantages and disadvantages of its own and foreign military equipment in Spain, made a number of fair conclusions about the need for its modernization, work began in this direction. But a number of reasons of domestic political, military-strategic, economic nature did not allow to realize what was planned before the start of World War II
        . I especially liked the second sentence. Read in your "kindergarten", maybe someone will help from the "scholarly perception of history" hi
      5. Vladimir_2U 17 January 2020 10: 26 New
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        But you are deftly settled down, demanding confirmation of my words from me, but you yourself, besides pretty tattered quotes about anti-aircraft guns, are rigorous by your speculations. Where is the confirmation of your words about No conclusions from the Spanish experience, where?
        Quote: Pedrodepackes
        The Soviet Union, having full information about the advantages and disadvantages of its own and foreign military equipment in Spain, made a number of fair conclusions about the need for its modernization, work began in this direction. But a number of reasons of domestic political, military-strategic, economic nature did not allow to realize what was planned before the start of World War II
        The first sentence is not mastered? Waiting for the confirmation of your words not in your words
        Quote: Pedrodepackes
        the opinion of one person is not the last resort, besides the "British scientists", they are such scientists
        Well, your opinion is definitely not a confirmation, I'm waiting for confirmation of unfinished conclusions from sources more impressive than your speculation. I pulled quotes, pull and you. And I'll take them apart.
        Quote: Pedrodepackes
        Well, tell me about escorts by our fighters of distant aircraft during the bombing of strategic targets in the far rear during the Second World War
        But what about the strictly night sorties of long-range aviation in the first half of the war, do not know? And do not talk about the bombers burned during the day, they were thrown into battle from despair and, as soon as it became possible, they stopped this practice. So, without the right equipment, they did what they had, changing tactics.
        In general, your speculation does not prove anything, I'm waiting for specific statements.
      6. Pedrodepackes 17 January 2020 11: 03 New
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        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        yourself, in addition to pretty tattered quotes about anti-aircraft guns, you are completely fenced off strictly by your speculation.

        Well, hanging labels indicates your weakness (arguments), I have given you specific facts with dates and a resolution on this subject of the plenum, but from you, nothing but labels, conjectures and slogans.
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        made a number of fair conclusions ... work was started ... a number of reasons did not allow to realize ...
        it's all blah blah blah. Give decisions, dates, implementation, and not far-fetched facts.
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        I pulled quotes, pull and you.

        about the blitzkrieg, I “pulled” the quotes both in terms of technique, dates, and leaders, consider.
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        strictly night flights of long-range aviation in the first half of the war are not up to date?

        in the know, only I don’t know about escorting them by our mythical distant fighters. And I explained to you about the bombers with dates, they were all born before the Spanish events and conclusions about them. Work on yourself further, good luck!
      7. Vladimir_2U 17 January 2020 11: 42 New
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        Quotations and sources do not wait means
        Quote: Pedrodepackes
        about the blitzkrieg, I “pulled” the quotes both in terms of technique, dates, and leaders, consider.
        WHERE??? Except for the cut quote about the Soviet anti-aircraft guns there is nothing!
      8. Pedrodepackes 17 January 2020 11: 52 New
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        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        Except for the cut quote about the Soviet anti-aircraft guns there is nothing!

        and you read it again, you look, and you’ll see about the decision of the MOT Council laughing
  • Vladimir_2U 17 January 2020 10: 33 New
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    Quote: Pedrodepackes
    appeared in May 1939 in a note by General George Thomas to the OKW headquarters
    here even the Germans themselves talk about it
    So what? May was after September 1 or what? Do you understand what I mean?
  • Pedrodepackes 17 January 2020 11: 06 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    So what? May was after September 1 or what? Do you understand what I mean?

    I understand, logically, theoretically substantiated, and were run in Poland, but I don’t understand. and here is Spain. there they really didn’t have dive bombers or tanks
  • Vladimir_2U 17 January 2020 11: 37 New
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    Well, they climbed into Poland at random, why was there some practical experience there! And "Condor" in your opinion does not appear in Spain.
  • Pedrodepackes 17 January 2020 11: 49 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    "Condor" in your opinion was not in Spain.

    was why deny
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Well, they climbed into Poland at random

    why at random, prepared, but it didn’t work out very well, read at your leisure Halder's recollections of the Polish campaign.
  • Vladimir_2U 17 January 2020 10: 38 New
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    Quote: Pedrodepackes
    therefore, we did not win a single defensive battle in the first year of the war
    Wow, a new level is reached! Did you forget about the battle near Moscow?
  • Pedrodepackes 17 January 2020 11: 10 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Did you forget about the battle near Moscow?
    But the battle of Moscow we had in June or at the beginning of June, do not remind? Having suffered the failures of the summer battles, having lost several million soldiers killed and captured in the cauldrons, it would be time to learn. Are you attracting ears again?
  • Vladimir_2U 17 January 2020 11: 34 New
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    Quote: Pedrodepackes
    Did you forget about the battle near Moscow?

    Quote: Pedrodepackes
    Are you attracting ears again?
    Wow! The won defense near Moscow at the end of the 41st year is far-fetched? Are you already quite that? Or 41 years in your opinion is not the first year of the Second World War, a new word in history!
  • Pedrodepackes 17 January 2020 11: 47 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    The won defense near Moscow at the end of the 41st year is far-fetched?

    you really have tight understanding of the surrounding reality. Your thoughts about the experience of Spain in the defense of Moscow are far-fetched
  • Vladimir_2U 17 January 2020 10: 41 New
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    Quote: Pedrodepackes
    In general, we were going to "... a little blood on foreign territory", the main maneuver offensive, defense and withdrawal were considered alarmist moods, so we did not win a single defensive battle in the first year of the war, where is the Spanish experience
    offensive defense and retreat regarded as alarmist moodsGive confirmation of these of your words. Who considered, for what period?
  • Pedrodepackes 17 January 2020 11: 17 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Who considered, for what period?

    Look at what General I.V. Panfilov was nearly shot, and how many officers were shot during the summer of 41. CM. Budyonny was removed from command of the defense of Kiev, for the proposal to withdraw troops. Do you either pretend or really don't know anything? When will you start paying for an educational program?
  • Vladimir_2U 17 January 2020 11: 30 New
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    I don’t see the link, and why did they nearly shoot him?
  • Pedrodepackes 17 January 2020 11: 44 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    I don’t see the link, and why did they nearly shoot him?

    for leaving Volokolamsk, it’s a shame to not know about this fact https://dambiev.livejournal.com/267598.html
    https://ordenrf.ru/geroi-rossii/geroi-sssr/panfilov-ivan-vasilevich.php а также воспоминания Рокоссовского и Жукова
  • Vladimir_2U 17 January 2020 11: 51 New
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    Alua Bakhytzhanovna tells how he almost paid the tribunal for this decision:

    - Stalin and Zhukov were unhappy with the surrender of Volokolamsk. The commander of the 16th Army, Lieutenant General K.K. Rokossovsky, intervened in the situation, who explained the reasons for the retreat and said: “I trust Panfilov. If he left Volokolamsk, then that means it was necessary! ”Panfilov always tried to protect the soldiers and did not throw them to a meaningless death. He told them: “I don’t need you to die heroically, you need to stay alive!”
    This? Where is it about the execution? And about "... a little blood .."?
  • Pedrodepackes 17 January 2020 11: 54 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Where is it about the execution?

    and you think at the tribunal you would have stroked the head for leaving the city, then put it for a lesser one.
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    And about "... a little blood .."?

    "little blood ..." was before the war, after July 22, the question was different. You don't know that either? what
  • Vladimir_2U 17 January 2020 10: 44 New
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    Quote: Pedrodepackes
    Spain, when the Germans had tanks the cat was crying (and it’s hard to call Pz-I a tank), and there are even fewer dive bombers, five Ju 87B-1 planes were sent to Spain in September 1938, where they changed the Ju 87A- three. 1
    Yes, it’s already clear that for you tactics to be tested immediately in millions of armies should also be tested in a world war specially organized for this matter.
  • Pedrodepackes 17 January 2020 11: 21 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    for you running tactics right on the millions of armies

    not for millions, but you can’t prepare a blitzkrieg with a company. It's like getting ready for a marathon, running kilometer distances. Our problems in the summer of the 41st, and the subsequent 42nd, were the loss of command and control and the inconsistency of interaction between the combat arms. The Germans in Poland worked it out, but in France secured it. And what can be run in with two regiments of motley aviation and three regiments of tankettes scattered around the front, it is difficult to say.
  • Vladimir_2U 17 January 2020 11: 35 New
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    Quote: Pedrodepackes
    but you can’t prepare a blitzkrieg company
    Under the fool then don’t mow, cooking and running in is far from the same thing!
  • Pedrodepackes 17 January 2020 11: 45 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Don’t mow under the fool

    this is for you!
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    to cook and run in is far from the same thing!
    but how to cook it, I would like to hear)))
  • Vladimir_2U 17 January 2020 11: 53 New
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    Quote: Pedrodepackes
    but how to cook it, I would like to hear)))
    So all the same, preparing a blitzkrieg and running tactics under it is not the same thing.
  • Pedrodepackes 17 January 2020 11: 55 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    So all the same, preparing a blitzkrieg and running tactics under it is not the same thing.

    I completely agree with you, Mr. Ambassador, but I would like to hear how it was prepared in Spain? Although, after all, there was just a place and time, given the fragmentation of the Republicans, at least to try.
  • Vladimir_2U 17 January 2020 10: 50 New
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    Quote: Pedrodepackes
    here are two more unknown characters whose traces I have not found on the Internet, give at least a link where you found them
    The thought that a typo or distortion of a surname in the source did not come to you? Strange, in the two quotes above you did not have such a question, although they come from the same place.
    https://allrefrs.ru/3-14308.html Не умеете пользоваться поисковиком? Когда не выгодно, само собой?
  • Pedrodepackes 17 January 2020 11: 26 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    The thought that a typo or distortion of a surname in the source did not come to you?

    You see, I’m not going to solve puzzles here, if you give information, then take the trouble to at least double-check it. Interestingly, the phrase immediately caught my eye in your source
    The most significant conclusion made by Britain from the experience of the Spanish war can be considered the decision to prepare for a big war. In this regard, the direct consequence of the events in Spain was the approval by the British Parliament at the end of 1937 of the law on the country's air defense, and earlier, in March 1937, a new arms plan.
    Can you tell me who Britain was going to fight with? laughing Will you continue to insist on the desire of Britain to raise and develop Germany?
  • Pedrodepackes 17 January 2020 09: 22 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    The Soviet Union, having full information about the advantages and disadvantages of its own and foreign military equipment in Spain, made a number of fair conclusions about the need for its modernization, work was begun in this direction.

    I put you on the shelves in tanks, aviation and MZA, what "work" was carried out according to the experience of Spain, and you, having no normal counterarguments, switched to slogans from agitation, funny lol
  • Vladimir_2U 17 January 2020 10: 31 New
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    Your laying on the shelves is just your speculation, and at least you tried to lay out some kind of confirmation according to the MLA, which is extremely unconvincing, not more convincing than mine.
  • Pedrodepackes 17 January 2020 11: 32 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Your shelving is just your speculation,

    these speculations are based on a decision of the MOT Council
    Quote: Pedrodepackes
    By the mid-1930s (this means until the year 35 inclusive) the absence of automatic anti-aircraft guns in the army and navy became completely intolerable, and therefore the country's leadership accelerated work in this direction. In 1935, the decree of the Council of Labor and Defense B. G. Shpitalnom and plant them. Kalinina was commissioned by the end of the year to develop a 37-mm automatic gun.
    what do you call speculation? Bother to remember when the war in Spain began?
  • Vladimir_2U 17 January 2020 11: 48 New
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    Already it was about draining the development of this decision, strain your memory!
  • Pedrodepackes 17 January 2020 12: 58 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    It was already about draining the development of this decision

    I wrote to you, your speculation does not count. Confirm this "drain" with decrees of various levels, arrests of those involved, executions of those responsible. Here, for example, Kursky, Taubin, Grokhovsky. There is specifically a charge
    in creating unpromising weapons systems
    or
    conservation of unfinished weapons and launching gross production of technically unfinished systems
    , i.e. in your notorious "sink". And then we’ll talk about the "discharge", but for now these are your "arguments" - blah blah blah.
  • Pedrodepackes 17 January 2020 13: 03 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    extremely unconvincing, not more convincing than mine.

    it will be more unconvincing than yours when you give at least one date corresponding to the time, but rather a resolution in which it sounds clearly "based on the experience of warfare in Spain, such a factory .... such a team of designers .... entrusted to ... make ...." By the way, tanks with anti-ballistic armor, which were made according to the experience of the Finnish campaign (and not the Spanish one), this also applies.
    For the first time in the world, the concept of a high-speed medium tank with anti-shell armor protection and powerful weapons was implemented in 1934 in the T-29 experimental tank
    but for now
    In September 1937, the Main Armored Directorate of the Red Army (GABTU) issued tactical and technical assignment to Plant No. 183 for the development of a new maneuverable wheeled and tracked tank.
    no one made any conclusions about the tank with semi-shell armor
  • Pedrodepackes 15 January 2020 10: 16 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Well, then she wasn’t particularly afraid of Hitler, since she folded her arms.

    then not afraid, especially behind the Maginot Line
  • Octopus 15 January 2020 13: 23 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    What was the legal government of Spain, in your opinion?

    Unfortunately, there was no legitimate government in Spain in the late 30s. There was a conditional petro-council of Trotsky and a conditional Kornilov, they got rid of all kinds of Kerensky back in the mid-30s.

    Spain was very lucky that the Nazis won.
  • Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 09: 21 New
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    Quote: Pedrodepackes
    and wear Anders helmets
    Probably still Adriana.
    1. Pedrodepackes 15 January 2020 09: 24 New
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      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      Probably still Adriana.
      I, I, das from naturlih, sorry! well at least not Andersen laughing
      1. Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 09: 46 New
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        Pedersen’s rifle was, and nothing! )))
        1. Pedrodepackes 15 January 2020 09: 56 New
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          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Pedersen’s rifle was, and nothing! )))

          Adrian + Pedersen = Andersen, so it turned out for me))
  • strannik1985 15 January 2020 06: 29 New
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    By 1938, the Germans had 59 divisions (2), of which 200 (000 people) were engaged against Czechoslovakia, 39 (1) settlement units against Czechoslovakia, 825 (000) against the Germans. A year later, the French only infantry deployed 40 divisions. Attention is the question, why is France so scared?
  • apro 15 January 2020 06: 59 New
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    Revisions ... revisions ..
    The destruction of the USSR in 1991 revealed a new reality to the world. In which the role of the Russian Federation is negligible. And it would be objective to not look at the situation of 1938 through the prism of today. Corrections to the fact that the strongest dictates to become reality. Poland is an aggressor and there are no real levers of influence. Poles today are the satellites of Amers and today they will not give Poles an insult. By pursuing their goals in Europe, as a counterweight to Germany and partly Russia.
  • Pushkowed 15 January 2020 07: 02 New
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    Polish 7TP tank overcomes Czechoslovak border fortifications
    Photos from the category "a second before ...". Tankers clearly do not know anything about barriers. With such a collision with a concrete tetrapod, it rolls under the bottom and the tank hangs on it (anti-tank hedgehogs act on the same principle). In addition, you can skip the bottom. And if you drive into it asymmetrically and fall over on the side under the tank, then the caterpillar can fly off, or even the cart of the road wheels can be pulled out with meat ... It is no coincidence that this picture was taken for propaganda purposes (because those that were taken a few seconds later would have the opposite effect).
    1. Pedrodepackes 15 January 2020 07: 36 New
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      Quote: Pushkowed
      Tankers clearly do not know anything about barriers.

      yes, the dashingness of this Polish "cavalryman" also surprised
    2. Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 08: 53 New
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      Quote: Pushkowed
      In addition, you can skip the bottom

      It’s unlikely to be missed, but it’s quite possible to bend and thereby disrupt the operation of most tank units.
  • riwas 15 January 2020 07: 04 New
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    Poland had plans for the Soviet Union. Acting in conjunction with Germany, she wanted to chop off his territory.
  • Professor 15 January 2020 07: 34 New
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    An article from the field of alternative history. Would have been posted on April 1st - she wouldn’t have a price.
    1. Olgovich 15 January 2020 09: 24 New
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      Quote: Professor
      An article from the field of alternative history. Would have been posted on April 1st - she wouldn’t have a price.

      What in vain to chat? request

      You refute:

      Was there no ultimatum from Poland to Lithuania?
      There was no Munich, where your surrendered Poland, Hungary and Germany to Czechoslovakia?
      There was no refusal of Poland to help the Czechs?
      France did not refuse to help the Czechs?
      Was there no occupation on October 1 by the allies (Poland and Germany) of the Czechs with the consent of the world powers, etc.?

      Do not be shy!

      Or just chatting able?
      1. Professor 15 January 2020 09: 56 New
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        You as a fan of the "Soviet Encyclopedia".
        "The Second World War 1939—1945, a war prepared by the forces of international imperialist reaction and unleashed by the main aggressive states — fascist Germany, fascist Italy and militaristic Japan. V. m. In., Like the first, ... "
        1. Olgovich 15 January 2020 10: 14 New
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          Quote: Professor
          You as a fan of the "Soviet Encyclopedia".


          Those. You are unable to refute ANY fact of the article.

          Then you must apologize for this your nonsense:
          Quote: Professor
          An article from the field of alternative history. Would have been posted on April 1st - she wouldn’t have a price.


          By the way, you still did not answer a simple question: Are you for the Jews to be killed in Lviv in 1939, and not in 1941 (Are you against the liberation of western Russia in 1939)?
          1. Professor 15 January 2020 10: 52 New
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            Refute the Soviet Encyclopedia that you like to quote so much, but I do not feed the trolls.
            1. Olgovich 15 January 2020 11: 20 New
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              Quote: Professor
              Refute the Soviet Encyclopedia which you so love to quote

              1. Give me one quote from TSB, liar.

              2.October 1, 1938 was held first act WWII in Europe - the capture by a group of allies of Czechoslovakia, with great casualties. FIRST TIME since WWII.

              Or what was it?
              Quote: Professor
              and I don’t feed the trolls.

              You denied the facts of the article? Not.

              To a simple question (you are for the Jews to be killed in Lviv in 1939, and not in 1941) they answered.
              No.

              You do not... lol can lol

              Except for one thing: like a parrot, quote the same thing.
              1. Professor 15 January 2020 13: 56 New
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                Quote: Olgovich
                1. Give me one quote from TSB, liar.

                Cited. Who is the liar?
                https://topwar.ru/150971-svjataja-inkvizicija.html#comment-id-8854646

                Quote: Olgovich
                You denied the facts of the article? Not.

                I do not feed the trolls.

                "The Second World War 1939-1945, a war prepared by the forces of international imperialist reaction and unleashed by the main aggressive states - fascist Germany, fascist Italy and militaristic Japan. V. m., Like the first, ..."
                1. Olgovich 15 January 2020 14: 03 New
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                  Quote: Professor
                  Cited. Who is the liar?
                  https://topwar.ru/150971-svjataja-inkvizicija.html#comment-id-8854646

                  You. This is SES. Where is TSB?
                  Quote: Professor
                  I do not feed the trolls.

                  Empty talker.
                  NOT responsible for his delusions of truthful article.

                  Tired of .....
                  1. Professor 15 January 2020 14: 07 New
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                    Quote: Olgovich
                    You. This is SES. Where is TSB?

                    And you are not only a troll, but also a demagogue.

                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Empty talker.

                    Chatterboxes also do not feed. Eat elsewhere. hi
                    1. Okolotochny 16 January 2020 13: 26 New
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                      Anti-Soviet and Russophobe Professor refers to Soviet publications - a direct Jewish joke laughing . Professor, do you know that the USSR could not "paraffin" its "ally" in ATS? You know. The demagogue is you - specifically referring to Soviet sources. Although in other disputes you are joking over them.
    2. Octopus 15 January 2020 12: 58 New
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      Quote: Professor
      An article from the field of alternative history. Would have been posted on April 1st - she wouldn’t have a price.

      Samsonov does not write others. And on April 1 he has every day.
  • smaug78 15 January 2020 11: 06 New
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    The title immediately understood - a professional liar and conspirator A. Samsonov ...
    1. Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 11: 29 New
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      You, from the Polish Sejm, know better.
  • Operator 15 January 2020 11: 10 New
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    The Polish hyena before WWII laid several times on its allies, after which they laid on Poland in September 1939.
  • 1970mk 15 January 2020 11: 27 New
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    Of course Poland is to blame ... Poles Dogs like forgot everything.
    Question - when did the Second World War begin?
    The second question - until June 22, 1941, the USSR supplied strategic raw materials and food to Germany.
    Soviet newspapers said "... England calls for the destruction of Hitlerism .. The Soviet leadership believes that Hitlerism cannot be fought ... one can only agree with it .." ...
    THIS how to understand "remembering everything"?
    1. strannik1985 15 January 2020 12: 38 New
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      THIS how to understand "remembering everything"?

      To understand this, it is enough to recall the background of the Moscow talks in the summer of 1939, when the French representative arrived only with the right to negotiate (i.e. could not sign anything), and English generally had no written authority, and he was ordered instructions to drag out negotiations as much as possible, and British diplomats informed Berlin that negotiations were only a means of putting pressure on Germany.
      1. 1970mk 15 January 2020 12: 46 New
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        This is just an excuse ... in this way the Poles can make a difference. When did the Second World War begin? After its beginning, who successfully collaborated with Hitlerism? Who said "..hitlerism as an ideology does not need to be destroyed ... it is necessary to agree"? Who condemned the same British who said "Nazism must be destroyed"?
        Morality - everyone has a stigma in such a gun! Including the USSR.
        1. strannik1985 15 January 2020 13: 25 New
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          This is just an excuse ...

          There were no Poles at those negotiations, and they replied to the French that they would not let the Red Army through to attack Germany.
          France and England trite tried to bleed Germany and the USSR, and themselves to sit behind the Maginot Line and Channel. Why should the USSR fight in such a situation? For whom?
        2. Olgovich 15 January 2020 14: 27 New
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          Quote: 1970mk
          When did the Second World War begin?

          ARTICLE-READ: 1 October 1938 g Allies Poland and Germany, Hungary occupied the Czechs with the consent of ALL world powers. The USSR was against it. ONE! So began WWII in Europe.
          Quote: 1970mk
          After its beginning, who successfully collaborated with Hitlerism?

          USA.
          And also Japan, Asia, South America, many in Europe.

          Not the USSR recreated in 1925-1939 the military industry of Germany. Did it USA and EnglandI am.
          Quote: 1970mk
          Morality - everyone has a stigma in such a gun! Including the USSR.

          The USSR has the LAST turn: he was put in a situation that he did NOT create.
    2. Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 13: 22 New
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      Quote: 1970mk
      The second question - until June 22, 1941, the USSR supplied strategic raw materials and food to Germany
      But was the USSR at war with Germany, or was it allied with England? And the Soviet Union was putting it all in return, not for green candy wrappers, as the Russian Federation is now, for example, but for no less strategic equipment, technologies and weapons.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 16: 20 New
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          And what? Something the United States did not rush to help England against Hitler, and, horrified, they even supplied petroleum products, and even after their own entry into the war against Germany, it was secretly true.
          Quote: 1970mk
          Support for the cannibalistic Nazi regime with its "Aryans and the rest subhuman" is normal
          From zhezh American bastards !! And what kind of creatures the Swedes turned out to be incomprehensible to the mind!
          1. The comment was deleted.
    3. revnagan 15 January 2020 15: 03 New
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      Quote: 1970mk
      The second question - until June 22, 1941, the USSR supplied strategic raw materials and food to Germany.

      And read Chapter 7 of Pykhalov’s book “The Great Slandered War”, and you can answer your own question. How much did the USSR deliver to Germany and received from the Germans. And how much did the Americans and other “free traders” deliver to Germany during the war, and who they were, these same "businessmen" ....
    4. Alexey RA 15 January 2020 15: 10 New
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      Quote: 1970mk
      Of course Poland is to blame ... Poles Dogs like forgot everything.
      Question - when did the Second World War begin?

      Depends on who counts. More than a billion people live on July 7, 1937. smile
    5. Okolotochny 16 January 2020 13: 28 New
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      It is understood that Politics is the "Art of the possible." What the Soviet leadership of that time did. Concluded a contract with the Reich last, unlike your ancestors.
  • Alexey RA 15 January 2020 14: 32 New
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    The artificially and ugly-created Czechoslovak Republic is not only not the basis of the European equilibrium, but, on the contrary, is its weak link
    © Jozef Pilsudski
    So Comrade Molotov was still that troll, calling Poland the ugly brainchild of the Versailles Treaty.
    The ruling circles of Poland boasted much of the "strength" of their state and the "power" of their army. However, it turned out that a short blow to Poland from the side of the German army and then the Red Army was enough to prevent anything from this ugly brainchild of the Treaty of Versailles, which was living off the oppression of non-Polish nationalities.
    © Molotov
    1. Nikolai Korovin 15 January 2020 16: 10 New
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      Well, of course. Marshal was preparing a moral justification for aggression against Czechoslovakia. Czechs and Slovaks, however, are much closer to each other as peoples in all respects than the population of the territories of Ukraine, Belarus, and Lithuania occupied by Poland in 1920 to the Poles. By 1939, Polish eastern politics bothered the local worse than the bitter radish. Some sedimentaries were worth it. Red Army met with flowers. So the characteristic of comrade Molotov is much closer to the true state of affairs than Mr. Pilsudsky’s remark, with the proviso that the oppression of non-Polish nationalities was not provided for by the Treaty of Versailles.
  • Nikolai Korovin 15 January 2020 16: 00 New
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    Very helpful article. The general public, apparently, is little aware of Poland’s claims to Lithuania simultaneously with Austria’s “Anschluss” Germany. If the capture of the Teshinsky region has been mentioned for quite some time, although, as a rule, without going into too much detail, then this is silent. The ultra-modern Polish tanks in the photographs are impressive. They probably managed to visit Kakhovka too. It did not grow together, but here is the victory.
    1. Alexey RA 15 January 2020 17: 26 New
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      Quote: Nikolai Korovin
      The ultra-modern Polish tanks in the photographs are impressive. They probably managed to visit Kakhovka too.

      In vain you laugh - the Polish 7TP have exactly the same roots as our T-26. This is the Polish version of the Vickers-6 t, which compares favorably with the Soviet more powerful engine.
      Moreover, the engine at the Pole was diesel, and not like ours - gasoline (and according to the instructions, our engine was allowed to refuel only with KB / B-70 aviation gasoline).
      1. rich 15 January 2020 19: 37 New
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        light Polish tank 7TP

        Light tank classification
        Combat weight, t 9,9
        Single-Tower Layout
        Crew, pers. Xnumx
        Manufacturer Państwowe Zakłady Inżynierii
        Years of production 1935 — 1939
        Years of Operation 1935 — 1939
        The number of issued, pcs. Xnumx
        dimensions
        Body length, mm 4750
        Height, mm 2181
        Clearance, mm 376
        Reservation
        Armor type steel rolled surface hardened
        Forehead of the body (top), mm / city. 10-17 / 32-60 °
        Forehead of the body (middle), mm / city. 11/82 °
        The forehead of the body (bottom), mm / city. 11-17 / 10-50 °
        Board of the case (top), mm / city. 10-15,5 / 0-17 °
        Board of the case (bottom), mm / city. 10-17 / 0 °
        Housing feed (top), mm / city. 9–9,5 / 60 °
        Housing feed (middle), mm / city. 8/10 °
        Body feed (bottom), mm / deg. 9,5 / 80 °
        Bottom, mm 5
        Roof, mm 5
        Tower forehead, mm / city. 13/0 °
        The mask of the gun, mm / city. 13/0 °
        Board turret, mm / deg. 13 / 0 °
        Tower feed, mm / deg. 13 / 0 °
        The roof of the tower, mm 5
        weaponry
        Caliber and brand of gun 1 × 37 mm Bofors wz. 37
        Type of gun cut
        80 gun ammunition
        Machine guns 1 × 7,92 mm [2]
        Mobility
        Engine Type Saurer VBLD
        Speed ​​on the highway, km / h 32 [2]
        Cruising on the highway, km 150 [1] - 160 [2]
        Cruising cross country, km 130
        Specific Power, l s / t 11,1
        Suspension type interlocked in four, on horizontal springs
        Track Width 268 mm
        Ground pressure, kg / cm² 0,6
        Gradeability, hail. thirty
        The overcome wall, m 0,7]
        The overcome ditch, m 1,8
        Overcoming ford, m 1,0
  • cat Rusich 16 January 2020 22: 04 New
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    Poland - JACKAL of Europe. Even in the days of the USSR it was necessary to include such articles in the history textbooks of all SOCIALIST countries (Cuba, North Korea, China, Vietnam ... Poland (Poland), Czechoslovakia ...). Especially in the textbooks of Czechoslovakia.
  • cat Rusich 16 January 2020 22: 13 New
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    There would be a very interesting historical “squiggle” - Poland would occupy Lithuania in 1938 ... What would Lithuania say now ...?
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