The first and last commander of the Russian Crimean army

Lieutenant General P.N. Wrangel - Commander of the Russian Army

The period of P.N.Wrangel's service in the Armed Forces of the South of Russia was ending (Conqueror of Red Verdun) and the stage of leadership of the Russian army began.

In the controlled territories (primarily in the Crimea) P.N. Wrangel carried out a number of successful reforms. We wrote about land reform earlier (The land of the peasants in Wrangel ; Land to the peasants in Wrangel. Key idea reform) A reform of local government was carried out, relations with the Cossack regions were reorganized. So, on 29 on March 1920, the general announced a regulation on the management of the areas occupied by the Armed Forces of the South of Russia. It contained the following lines: “The lands of the Cossack Troops are independent in relation to self-government, but with full submission to the Cossack armed forces to the Commander-in-Chief”. This was preceded by a preliminary agreement with the chieftains of the Cossack troops.

Russian army P.N. Wrangel

The Russian army was also reformed. The army was reorganized on a regular basis. There was a struggle with the non-combatant element and the excessively sprawling rear. Restored in the rear.

In October 1920, the Russian army had a harmonious system and structurally looked as follows:

1-th Army

1th Army Corps:

Kornilov shock division:
1th Kornilov shock regiment
2th Kornilov shock regiment
3th Kornilov shock regiment
Kornilov artillery brigade;

Sep. Ing. company
Sep. conn. gene. Kornilova Division
Reserve battalion;

General Markov Infantry Division:
1-th gene. Markov infantry. regiment
2-th gene. Markov infantry. regiment
3-th gene. Markov infantry. regiment
4-th gene. Markov infantry. regiment
Art. gene. Markov brigade

Sep. Ing. gene. Markov company
Sep. conn. gene. Markov Division
Reserve battalion (regiment);

Rifle General Drozdovsky Division:
1 th shooter. gene. Drozdovsky regiment
2 th shooter. gene. Drozdovsky regiment
3 th shooter. gene. Drozdovsky regiment
4 th shooter. gene. Drozdovsky regiment
Drozdovskaya art. team

Sep. Ing. gene. Drozdov company
Sep. conn. gene. Drozdovsky Division;

Not included in the divisions:
1 th Sep. heavy art. division
Sep. heavy tractor battery
1-I Sep. Ing. company
2-I Sep. telegraph company;

Horse enclosure

1 I Cavalry Division:
1 I Brigade:
Guards Cavalry Regiment
1 Cavalry Regiment
2 I Brigade:
3 Cavalry Regiment
6 Cavalry Regiment

1 th equestrian art. division
3 th equestrian art. division;

2 I Cavalry Division:
1 Brigade:
2 Cavalry Regiment
4 Cavalry Regiment
2 I Brigade:
7 Cavalry Regiment
Caucasian cavalry regiment

4 th equestrian art. division
5 th equestrian art. division;

1-I Kuban Cossack Division:
Kornilovsky Horse Regiment
1-th Labinsky gene. Babiev Kaz. regiment
1 Linear Cossack Regiment
1th Uman Cossack Regiment
Kuban Combined Division
2 th equestrian art. division
1-th Kuban Kaz. conn. [art.] division
Reserve regiment

When housing:
Horse sapper-subversive team;

Don corps
1-I Don Cavalry Division:
1-I (Guards) brigade:
Life Guard Cossack Regiment
Life Guards Ataman Regiment
2 I Brigade:
1-th Don Conn. regiment
2-th Don Conn. Regiment

1th Don Don Battalion
1-th Don horse art. division
3-th Don horse art. division;

2-I Don Cavalry Division
1 I Brigade:
3-th Kaledinsky Conn. regiment
4-th Nazarovsky Conn. regiment
2 I Brigade:
5-th Ataman Platov Conn. regiment
6-th Ataman Yermak conn. regiment
Dzungar conn. regiment

2th Don Don Spare Conn. division
2-th Don con-art. division;

3-I Don division
1 I Brigade:
Gundorovsky St. George Regiment
7th Don Regiment
10th Don Regiment

2 I Brigade:
18th Don Regiment
8th Don Regiment

3th Don Don Battalion
3-th Don Conn. division:
1-th Don light art. division;

2-th Army
At the headquarters of the army:
4-I Sep. telegraph company;

2 Army Corps

13 I Infantry Division
1 I Brigade:
49 infantry. Brest regiment
50 infantry. Bialystok regiment
2 I Brigade:
51 infantry. Lithuanian regiment
52 infantry. Vilensky Regiment
13-I art. team
Sep. Ing. company
Sep. conn. Vilnius Division
Reserve battalion

34 I Infantry Division
1 Brigade:
133 infantry. Simferopol regiment
134 infantry. Theodosian Regiment
2 I Brigade:
135 infantry. Kerch-Yenikalsky Regiment
136 infantry. Taganrog Regiment
34-I art. team
Sep. Ing. company
Sep. conn. Simferopol Division
Reserve battalion;

Not part of the divisions:
2 th Sep. heavy art. division
2-I Sep. telegraph company
2-I Sep. Ing. company
5-I Sep. Ing. company
Consolidated Guard infantry. regiment
4 i-position battery;

3 Army Corps (Almost immediately after coming to Crimea, it was disbanded, the 6 I infantry division was poured into the 2 army, and the 7 I into the Kuban corps).

6 I Infantry Division
1 I Brigade:
Caucasian shooter. regiment
(83-th) Samur infantry. regiment
2 I Brigade:
(25-th) Smolensk infantry. regiment
Summary shooter. regiment

6-I art. team
Sep. Ing. company
Sep. conn. gene. Alekseeva Division
Reserve battalion

7 I Infantry Division
1 I Brigade:
1-th Partisan gene. Alekseeva infantry. regiment
Terek Plastun Regiment
2 I Brigade:
1-th Kuban shooter. regiment
2-th Kuban shooter. regiment

7-I art. team
Sep. Kuban engineer a hundred
Sep. Zaporizhzhya Kuban Kaz. division
Reserve battalion

Not part of the division:
Sep. battalion of German colonists

Not part of separate armies:
Sep. Tersko-Astrakhan Kaz. team
1 Tere Cossack Regiment
1 Astrakhan Cossack Regiment
2 Astrakhan Cossack Regiment
Tersko-Astrakhan Cossack equestrian art. division
Sep. reserve Astrakhan Cossack division
Sep. Terek reserve Cossack hundred

Military schools:
Konstantinovsky Military School
Kuban Alekseevsk Military School
Sergiev art. school
War gene. Alekseeva school
War gene. Kornilova School

Armored vehicles and Tanks:
1th Tank Division
Spare Armored Automobile and Tank Division
Armored car "Gundorovets" and others.

Armored trains:
1-th armored division
Heavy armored train "Great Russia"

2-th armored division
Light armored train "Officer"
Light armored train "St. George the Victorious"

3-th armored division
Light armored train "Dmitry Donskoy"
Light armored train "Warrior"
Heavy armored train "John Kalita"

Aviation
1 Air Force
2 Air Force
3-th art. air squad
4-th Aviation named after military man. Colonel Kazakov pilot detachment
5 Air Force
6 Fighter Squadron
Military Aviation School

Other parts:
1-th Kerch positional art. division
2-th Kerch positional art. division
3 battery art preparatory art. school
1-I positional art. team
2-I positional art. team
4 position battery

Simferopol department garrison company
Yalta Separate Garrison Company

Don officer art. school
Don educational art. division
3 I Don Light Battery
4 I Don Light Battery
Don officer reserve regiment

Spare Kuban Cossack Battery
Cossack machine gun. school
Kuban reserve. battalion
A special working hundred of the Kuban Cossack army
Kuban reserve technical hundred.

On April 30, by order of No. 3089, P. N. Wrangel established the Order of St. Nicholas the Wonderworker on the Nikolaev ribbon (national colors - white-blue-red). The order was one for both officers and soldiers. He had two degrees and a statute of special rights and advantages, as well as award rules.

Order of St. Nicholas the Wonderworker

The order was awarded to one who, having despised a clear danger and showing a valiant example of fearlessness and selflessness, performed an excellent military feat, which was crowned with complete success and brought obvious benefit. Made by the Cavalry Duma, the award was approved by the Commander-in-Chief.

Awarding of the 1 degree was not made.

The 2 degree was awarded to 337 people (including P.N. Wrangel, who accepted from the Cavalier Duma a cross of the 2 degree of the 15 of November 1921).

Last award ceremony in White Russia. General P.N. Wrangel awards the Order of St. Nicholas the Wonderworker General N.V. Skoblin. From left to right: Head of the Government of the South of Russia A.V. Krivoshein, head of the Yugoslav military mission, British war correspondent, commander of the 1 Army General Kutepov, general Skoblin, general Wrangel. from. Fedorovka, Northern Tavria, 14 September 1920

The first cavalier of the order was the tank commander of the former 3th tank detachment of the VSSR, captain Lyubin-Yarmolovich, who "broke through wire fences on the head tank and opened the way for the infantry." 2 officers of the detachment were also awarded, including the commander of the tank General Skobelev, Colonel Trembovelsky.

The military units were awarded with the banners and standards of the Order of St. Nicholas the Wonderworker, as well as silver pipes with Nikolaev ribbons. The Order led to the emergence of such collective awards as the Nikolaev pennant (awarded the former 3th tank detachment of the All-Russian Union of Liberal Democratic Forces) and the pennant of the Order of St. Nicholas the Wonderworker (naval distinction; granted by order of the Commander-in-Chief No. 118 from 26. 06. 1920 of the gunboat “Terrible” and “Sentinel”, river gunboats “Ural” and “Altai”, armed with icebreakers “Gaydamak” and “Horseman”, armed boats “Azovets”, “Maria”, “Nikolai Pashich”, “Pantikopey”, “Dimitry "," Meotida ").

Order of St. Nicholas the Miracle Worker on the banner

The status of the order was next to the Order of St. George.

By his order P.N. Wrangel freed from all punishments and restrictions on the service of all officers and soldiers if they surrendered and went over to the side of the white troops, as well as all those who had previously served in the Red Army and who had been punished or restricted by voluntary arrival in the armed forces service.

The last stage of the White struggle

Thus, the Crimean period of the White movement occupies a special place in stories Civil war. It was at this time that, under the leadership of the new leader, General Baron P.N. The Russian army, as the armed forces in the south of Russia are now called, was built on a strictly regular basis, in the tradition of the Imperial Army. Conflicts with the leadership of the Cossack regions were eliminated, the land question was resolved in the interests of the absolute majority of the country's population, and effective civil administration was formed. And it was during this period that the postulates of the ideology of the White movement were formulated - crystallized after years of mistakes and achievements. The goals and objectives of the White Struggle were set out in an appeal from the 1918 of May 1919:

“Listen, Russian people, for what we are fighting.
For desecrated faith and offended shrines.
For the liberation of the Russian people from the yoke of the Communists, vagabonds and convicts, who completely ruined Holy Russia.
For the termination of internecine warfare.
That the peasant, having acquired the land he cultivated, would engage in peaceful labor.
For true freedom and law to prevail in Russia.
For the Russian people to choose their own Master. ”

But all these promising undertakings were no longer destined to come true - they were already carried out when the general situation in the world and the country did not leave hope for victory. The inequality of forces that took place at all stages of the struggle took on truly disastrous proportions by the year 1920. The betrayal of the former allies of the 1 World War put the whites in a hopeless situation and forced a tragic exodus abroad.

Generals Wrangel and Bogaevsky at a moleben

How did the events develop?

Last offensive

By May 1920, the Russian army had at the front, in the spare and rear units of 40000 people, 10 tanks and 20 airplanes. Despite, in general, the meagerness of forces (one full-fledged corps of the old army), it was a highly efficient combat mechanism, which was well-functioning and had great combat experience - it was active

25 May 1920 g., Without waiting for the blow of the Red Army, the army of P. N. Wrangel went on the offensive - broke through the front of the Reds and launched an offensive in Northern Tavria. The situation was difficult - the British resisted the offensive, continuing to mend various obstacles. The latter could be resolved through personal negotiations in Sevastopol, but cargoes of ever-shrinking aid were delivered to Crimea with great difficulty. Active hostilities coincided with the developing process of establishing peaceful life in Crimea.

Nevertheless, the battles in Northern Tavria continued with success for the Russian army, although the enemy constantly strengthened his troops. The strategic plan of the Soviet command was also foiled. So, the Reds formed a strong equestrian group of Rednecks, numbering 12 thousand sabers. The redneck fell on the bottom of the corps of General Abramov. Having suffered heavy losses, the Don people retreated. The redneck advanced to Melitopol, where the headquarters of P.N. Wrangel was located.

Generals Wrangel and Kutepov at the head car in Melitopol

Given the current situation, the commander in chief decided to destroy the enemy - and the goiter’s cavalry was defeated (Aviation against cavalry, or raid on Melitopol).

August landing in the Kuban (Strategic landing ; From Crimea - to the Kuban. Throw of General Ulagai ; Lost opportunities of Ulagaev’s landing; The fate of the strategic landing) from an operational point of view, was unsuccessful, but diverted the large forces of the Reds, and also brought replenishment - with people and horses (people around 10000).

And then in the Crimea, information was received about the conclusion by the Poles of a truce with the Bolsheviks. The hostilities on the Soviet-Polish front ceased, and the Red Command was given the opportunity to throw all its forces into a single front - the Wrangel Front. The Polish representatives at Headquarters called such a truce ... a forced concession to England.

Exodus from Crimea and emigration

With the approach of the 1th Cavalry Army, the forces of the Reds repeatedly exceeded the forces of the Russian Army (especially in the number of sabers). I had to forget about operational activity.

The Reds went on a decisive offensive, and the Crimean operation was lost. But the last merit of the administration of P.N. Wrangel was the carefully planned and impeccably realized evacuation of not only the army, but also a significant number of civilians who did not want to stay in Soviet Russia (comparable to the Novorossiysk disaster in March 1920).

Military men, sailors and workers worked at an accelerated pace - and preparation for the evacuation was completed. On the 29 of October (November 11) P.N. Wrangel gave the directive to the troops: “Break away from the enemy, go to the ports for loading”, indicating exactly which units should be loaded and where. “The burdens to leave. To put infantry on carts, to cover cavalry with withdrawal. ” 126 people were taken out on 145693 ships.

General P.N. Wrangel on the deck of the yacht "Lucull" - the floating rate of the commander in chief

The American admiral McCauley, who was in Sevastopol in November 1920, informed his superiors: “In full order, Sevastopol was evacuated within three days. Gene. Wrangel was the last to leave. ”

Thanks to his organizational skills, the general managed to save tens of thousands of people from death. To judge how he secured his troops, taking them out of Russia, it’s enough to give a brief list of the property that was requisitioned by the French occupation authorities from the Russian army in Constantinople (to pay the “allies” for the meager French ration): 45000 rifles, 350 machine guns, 60000 hand grenades, 330000 shells, 2000000 pound cartridges, 300000 pounds of sugar, 20000 pounds of salt, 17000 pounds of different products, up to 50000 sets of uniforms, 200000 sets of linen, 340000 pieces of shoes, XNNX pounds, XN leather blankets, xnumx meters with KPA factory and so on.

P.N. Wrangel became commander in chief of the Russian army in exile.

After the fall of Crimea P.N. Wrangel was evacuated to Constantinople and then remained in exile. With headquarters in 1922, he moved from Constantinople to the Kingdom of CXS (Serbs, Croats and Slovenes; Sremski Karlovitsy).

During these years, P.N. Wrangel gave his strength and resources to the care and device of the Russian military and refugees, scattered throughout Europe. His wife helped him in this matter.

In 1924, under the leadership of P.N. Wrangel, the Russian All-Military Union (ROVS) was created. In September 1927, Mr P.N. Wrangel and his family moved from the Kingdom of the CXC to Belgium (in Brussels), where he soon died of an unexpectedly serious illness.

On October 6 1929 the ashes of P.N. Wrangel were solemnly reburied in the Russian Church of the Holy Trinity in Belgrade. About how representative his "second funeral" was, the photographs below.

P. N. Struve wrote that P. N. Wrangel was alien to illusions. He had a strict and generally skeptical mind. But, what is very important, besides the mind, there was a spirit in it - a determination that inspired his whole personality to carry out a feat, no matter how difficult and hopeless it was from the point of view of human calculations.

Another contemporary, a participant in the review of P. N. Wrangel, recalled how the general approached the right flank of the 2 line front. He was wearing a dark gray Circassian coat with ivory ghazyrs. On the chest - the Order of St. George 4-th degree. On a narrow (smooth) Caucasian belt there is a large ancient and very beautiful dagger with a pure gold set. The Baron was very tall and thin, but lively and quick in movements, folded proportionally - and made an impressive impression. Officers and Cossacks “devoured his eyes” (according to the charter). And the general, peering very closely into the eyes of the Cossacks (as if wishing to penetrate their souls and know their moods), reached the middle of the front, and, stopping, shouted in a loud and clear voice: “Great, Don eagles!” The Cossacks answered in a friendly and loud voice “Hurray!” Rushed through the rows. Going around the front, the baron returned to the middle and raised his hand. The Cossacks fell silent, and P.N. Wrangel distinctly and very loudly expressed the hope that the Cossacks would fight perfectly - as before. Having barked back “We’ll try, Your Excellency!”, The Cossacks shouted “Hurray!” Again.

Finally, the third eyewitness to the events wrote about General P.N. Wrangel that he was one of the first Russian leaders to fully understand the danger of communism - not only for the Russian people, but for the whole world. Having entered General Denikin’s army shortly after the Bolshevik coup, he was appointed the head of a large unit, and later, after Denikin left his post, he became Commander-in-Chief of heavily weakened and poorly equipped units of the All-Union Federal League of Forces. In these positions, P. N. Wrangel proved to be a talented military leader and administrator, possessing brilliant personal qualities. The general defended the Crimea as once General Washington at Valeforge, opposing the enemy ten times superior in strength. In the end, in this unequal struggle, he had to retreat to Sevastopol and go abroad with the army - in order to preserve its remnants and save a large mass of refugees.

White Church, Yugoslavia 1925 Crimean Cadet Corps. P.N. Wrangel with the smallest cadet - N. Zakharov

Among the awards of the general: Georgievskoe weapon, the Order of St. George of the 4th degree, St. Anna of the 4th (“For Courage”) and the 3th degree, of St. Stanislav the 3th (with swords and a bow) and the 2th degree, St. Vladimir of the 4th (with with swords and a bow) and the 3 (with swords) and St. Nicholas the Wonderworker of the 2 degree, the Cross of the Salvation of the Kuban of the 1 degree, the English Order of Saints Michael and George of the 2 degree, as well as several medals. He was an honorable old man and a resident of a number of villages of Astrakhan, Don and Tere Cossack troops.

In conclusion, we give a track record of P. N. Wrangel, as well as poems written in connection with his death.

Sources and literature:

List of captains of the Guards Cavalry by seniority. St. Petersburg, 1913.
A list of Adjutant Generals, Major Generals and Rear Admirals of His Majesty’s Suite and the Adjutant Outbuilding by seniority. Ed. Military Camp Chancellery E. I. V., 1916.
Rogvold V. The cavalry of the 1 Army in East Prussia (August - September 1914). GURKKA Military Printing House, 1926.
Buguraev M. General Wrangel. Los Angeles, 1972.
Rutych N. N. Biographical Directory of the Highest Ranks of the Volunteer Army and Armed Forces of the South of Russia. M., 2002.
Wrangel P.N. Notes. November 1916 - November 1920 T. T. 1-2. Plenty, 2002 .;
White Russia. Photo album. M., 2003.
Klaving V. Civil war in Russia: White armies. M. 2003.
Cherkasov-Georgievsky V.G. General Pyotr Nikolaevich Wrangel. The last knight of the Russian Empire. M., 2004.
Schmaglit R.G. White movement. 900 biographies of the largest representatives of the Russian military abroad. M., 2006.
Sokolov B.V. Wrangel. The life of wonderful people. M., 2009.
Oleinikov A.V. Captured in battle. Trophies of the Russian army in the First World War. M .: Veche, 2015.

Comments

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

Hero of the Red Army and WWI Philip Kuzmich Mironov, who defeated Wrangel, was shot dead by a sentry on April 2, 1921. This is for those who write "it's a pity I didn't pass over for the Reds."

[Dalton]

Only Konstantin Wrangel was not defeated. Yes, the operation in both Northern Tavria and Crimean ended in failure. But the defeated ones are not evacuated in this order, at the signal, preserving the army mechanism and the like.
By the way, this is almost the only successful Crimean evacuation in the recent history of Crimea.

[Hunghuz]

You're right dalton

[Hunghuz]

You're right dalton

[samarin1969]

"But the defeated are not evacuated in that order, at the signal, keeping the army mechanism and the like ...."

On the site "Sevastopol - Southern Outpost of Russia in OK there is a wonderful article on the topic of" Crimean evacuation "with an abundance of photos. Wrangel really left Crimea in an amazingly organized manner. One gets the impression that the White Army abandoned the" Crimea Island "for psychological reasons. Remained: the fleet , selected units, stocks of military equipment, prospects for accepting "volunteers" from the southern regions. But the baron began to prepare for evacuation even during the battles at Perekop. Obviously, the officers and rank and file saw this and morally already "sailed away."

[Dalton]

for psychological reasons.

the baron began to prepare for evacuation during the battles at Perekop

Do not you know the specifics of the defense of Crimea? After the fall of Perekop, everything - further spreading and the absence of any prospects. Therefore, the order was given precisely when it became clear that Perekop had fallen.

Obviously, the officers and rank and file saw this and morally already "sailed away".

The keyword is obvious. And absolutely unbelievable.
So they "floated" that they survived in inhuman conditions in Gallipoli and Bizerte. Yes, and abroad as an army.
No, the matter is only in tactics and operational art (the baron was an experienced commander), and not moral factors.

[unknown]

Do not forget that the fortifications of Perekop were not stormed by the Red Army. and the Makhnovists.

[Olgovich]

Quote: ignoto

Do not forget that the fortifications of Perekop were not stormed by the Red Army. and the Makhnovists.

And also the "valiant" Estonian division and the Latvian division are foreign mercenaries and punishers.

It is noteworthy that they also stormed Perekop in the spring of 1920, but were repulsed in the steppe, where the Cossacks caught up and cut down a good part of the Latvians.

[motorized rifle]

"It is not worth" to breed myths about the Makhnovist army, the assault was carried out by units of the Red Army, the Makhnovists helped them:
[quoteThe offensive began the 6th Army, 15 and 52 divisions from its composition forced the gulf, breaking 10 kilometers of the gulf across the chest in cold autumn water. At the same time 152 and the fire brigade under the command of Blucher launched an assault on the Turkish Wall. Wrangel tried to turn the tide of the offensive of the Red Army, throwing on the flank of 15 divisions, the horse corps under the command of General Barbovich with a total of 4,5 thousand sabers. But thanks to the help of Makhno’s troops, the Soviet troops managed to resist, later defeating the Barbovich corps.
The surviving parts of Wrangel organizedly retreated to gain a foothold in the Ishun defensive position. But on November 11, the troops of the 151st Blucher brigade, with the support of a fresh Latvian division, having launched an offensive, broke through the positions of Wrangel’s troops, passing four defensive lines of the White Guards during the day. Later, on November 13, Simferopol was taken, and on November 17 the whole Crimea was controlled by the troops of the Red Army. By that time, the remnants of Wrangel’s troops and refugees with a total number of about 150 thousand were evacuated by ship to Bulgaria and Turkey, but the majority of about 300 thousand civilians did not want to leave their homeland, subsequently subjected to repression by the Soviet government.] [/ Quote]
Perhaps I will give one more quote:
[quoteThus, thanks to the defeat of Wrangel’s troops in the Crimea, it was possible to destroy the last center of resistance of the White Guards, thereby finally ending the civil war and begin to rebuild the country after the bloody battles that took place on its territory.
Assessing all of the above, we can say that both parties have shown courage, but this is not something to be proud of. Say, the Battle of Poltava or the siege of Leningrad are the heroic pages of the history of Russia, for then we fought against external invaders, while the defeat of Wrangel’s troops in the Crimea was a fratricidal abuse and causes nothing but sorrow.] [/ Quote]

[APIS]

Do not you know the specifics of the defense of Crimea? After the fall of Perekop, everything - further spreading and the absence of any prospects.

We know.
Long and heroic defense of Sevastopol. But this is for patriots.
For occupiers - an organized, carefully planned drape.

[icant007]

He began to prepare for evacuation as soon as he took command of the Armed Forces of the South of Russia on April 11, 1920.
Understanding the complexity of the situation, Wrangel, as he himself noted in his memoirs, set the main task of removing the army from a difficult situation. Moreover, he used these words both in the literal sense, preparing advance evacuation of troops from the Crimea, and figuratively, taking some diplomatic and economic actions to establish life in the territory of Crimea.

[apro]

What does it mean that it’s not defeated? The tasks before the Reds have been completed. The military threat has been eliminated in Crimea. The baron has just evacuated .... but why was he there ???

[Hunghuz]

Defeated it means a military disaster
Which was not. There was a pre-planned evacuation. Indeed, only the blind will not notice the balance of power, and they’ve prepared in advance

[apro]

Losing a permanent place of residence. Legitimate existence. A resource base is a planned action? It’s not a rout. It’s a collapse ...

[motorized rifle]

Which was not.

Wrangel troops lost 50% of their horsepower. and 40% of the weapons, this is a rout!
And if at the same time troop control is not lost, this is an indicator of the quality of troops and command.
But the second does not cancel the first!

[Hunghuz]

The fact that with a catastrophically unfavorable balance of forces managed to save the core of the army (Wrangel), and even evacuate civilians is a victory.
Strategic if you like.
By the way, I read that a huge mass of lower ranks, including the mass of former captured Red Army soldiers, was evacuated with great enthusiasm. Even they didn’t have a desire

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Hunghouse

Defeated it means a military disaster
Which was not. There was a pre-planned evacuation.

Quote: Hunghouse

The fact that with a catastrophically unfavorable balance of forces managed to save the core of the army (Wrangel)

Well yes! And Dunkirk, following your logic, is the result of an unsurpassed strategic concept of the French and English! They, frankly, from September 1, 1939 planned exactly that, as a result, to act.

[Dalton]

HanTengri (Igor)

And Dunkirk, following your logic, is the result of an unsurpassed strategic concept of the French and English!

Dunkirk allowed to save the core of the British army. Based on future operations. So partially yes, a strategic victory. Then these British fought in Africa, Sicily and France.
And Wrangel was more perspicacious than those English and French, because calculated in advance a possible outcome.
And prepared.
As they say - hope for the best, and get ready for the worst.
Well done, eventually saved people

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Hunghouse

The fact that with a catastrophically unfavorable balance of forces managed to save the core of the army (Wrangel), and even evacuate civilians is a victory.
Strategic if you like.

What the hell is victory? Simply, the commander of the Southern Front M.V. Frunze deliberately halted the advance of the Red forces on Sevastopol, to enable everyone to evacuate without bloodshed.

[Dalton]

Naturally victory.

Commander of the Southern Front M.V. Frunze deliberately suspended the offensive

how is Hitler under Dunkirk?)
Why aren’t you accusing Frunze of complicity?
Or was he therefore overdosed with chloroform in the 25th?

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Dalton

how is Hitler under Dunkirk?)
Why aren’t you accusing Frunze of complicity?
Or was he therefore overdosed with chloroform in the 25th?

What kind of nonsense?

I imagine what kind of howl you would raise now if Frunze gave the order to smash troops and refugees while boarding ships.

Frunze showed humanity, offered to surrender without bloodshed, Wrangel hid this telegram from his troops. Then Frunze, in order to prevent bloodshed, allowed both the military and civilians to freely evacuate.

And about chloroform .... Well, how much can this chewing gum be procrastinated? Already so many historians have been digging and digging nothing.

[XII legion]

I carefully read your notes Green.
So, according to yours, Frunze specially organized the Wrangel golden bridge, didn’t I mess anything up?

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: XII Legion

So, according to yours, Frunze specially organized the Wrangel golden bridge, didn’t I mess anything up?

Quite possible. There is no exact confirmation, but it is known that on November 11, after the capture of Perekop M.V. Frunze sent a radiogram to Wrangel, inviting his troops to freely leave Crimea in exchange for an end to the resistance, for which V.I. Lenin criticized him a little

But Wrangel didn’t answer Frunze’s offer, moreover, he hid him from his troops and began the evacuation.

It is possible that Frunze, knowing that Sevastopol was overflowing with civilian refugees who had gathered to evacuate with their families and children, gave an order under which both Horse armies received time to regroup and rest in the region of Simferopol, from where it was only 80 km to Sevastopol.

[Albatroz]

Your CONCEPTS Green (I will not name it otherwise, and you yourself admit it by using the word "possible") turn Frunze into an accomplice of the White Guards.
I am not bad about Frunze even without his complicity with Wrangel. The latter planned and implemented everything himself - without an imaginary "giveaway" game.
Naturally, you have no proof of the word "possibly"?

[Alexander Greene]

[quote = Albatroz] Your CONCEPTS Green (I will not name it otherwise, but you yourself admit it by using the word "possibly") turn Frunze into an accomplice of the White Guards.

Do you call the elementary humanity of the Soviet command aiding the White Guards?

Here is the order of Frunze on the front.
“Soldiers of the Red Army Our valiant units, breaking through the fortified positions of the enemy, broke into the Crimea. One more blow, and only bad memories will remain from the Crimean White Guard.

The unspeakable prowess of the Red forces has broken the resistance of the hordes of Baron Wrangel. Terrible and merciless for their enemies, the Red Army does not seek revenge. We shed blood only because our enemies forced us to do so.

During the most fierce battles, we turned to our enemies with peaceful proposals. We are doing it now. The revolutionary Military Council of the Southern Front today sent the radio to Wrangel, his officers and soldiers with a proposal to surrender in a 24-hour period, in which he provides life for surrendering enemies and those who wish - free travel abroad.

In case of refusal, all the blame for the spilled blood rests with the officers of the white army. The revolutionary Military Council of the Southern Front orders all fighters of the Red Army to spare the surrender and prisoners. The Red Army man is terrible only for the enemy. He is a knight towards the vanquished.

It is incumbent on all commanders, commissars, and political workers to widely explain to the Red Army the meaning of this order.

Read the order in all companies, squadrons, batteries, individual units and departments.

Revolutionary Military Council of the Southern Front, Frunze "

PS I wrote "possibly" because I do not have accurate information about Frunze's actions, I rely on facts: both Cavalry armies were not sent to pursue the enemy, aviation did not bomb the landing of the White Army on ships, the capabilities of the RKKF were not used.

[Albatroz]

Humanity?)
Are you talking about corpses covered with lime?)
The given order is ideological ideology, a good mine with a bad game. The pace of the operation was lost, and the persistent resistance of the units of the 1st AK and the pre-planned and well-thought-out evacuation operation allowed the Russian army to leave. They, and not the mythical brake light a la Dunkirk.
Aviation at that time and at that moment was both quantitatively and qualitatively impotent, and horse armies still had to be entered through the isthmus. He was taken by infantry brigades - Ognevaya, 152nd, etc. The whites, on their way out, actively used carts, throwing all that was unnecessary. So come off. Vehicles were in readiness No. 1.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Albatroz

Humanity?) ... corpses ....

Quote: Albatroz

carts

And then the corpses covered with lime? When Frunze offered to surrender and announced an order on the front, the horror stories with one hundred thousand shot and drowned officers had not yet been invented. And where are these thousands of burials? How many did not search, those were not found.

In the Crimean archives there is information about all executed Cheka. Among them, those who had a hand in the killings of workers and other sympathizers of the Soviet regime in the Crimea, as well as bandits who flooded the Crimea, and white men who went into the mountains to partisan and were captured with weapons in their hands, were also arrested underground.

As for the separation of white troops from the Red Army. Consider yourself: two Horse armies, Makhno brigades were in Simferopol already on November 13. Wrangel was evacuated from Sevastopol on November 15. Is it possible for two Horse armies, plus the Makhnovsky brigades with their carts, to overcome 80 km in two days weakly? And you talk about carts.

And about aviation, why do you consider it impotent? Frunze had more than 80 planes that had actively bombarded White’s positions before, so they could have bombed at Sevastopol and other berths, but for some reason they didn’t. Here and think now.

[Albatroz]

All found. And the corpses were counted)

Consider yourself: two Horse armies, Makhno brigades were in Simferopol already on November 13. Wrangel was evacuated from Sevastopol on November 15. Is it possible for two Horse armies, plus the Makhnovsky brigades with their carts, to overcome 80 km in two days weakly? And you talk about carts.

Why count?
If owls. enz. notes that White managed to break away for 1-2 transitions.
This affected the organization of the process (in advance) and mobility during the withdrawal (supply), as well as the cavalry cover.
As aviation was active, we are told by the film 2 comrades served))
But seriously, the aircraft of the Russian army pressed her not weakly. That allowed to make the corps of Goons, and fight for Kakhovka. But there were almost no planes in the Crimea, and the matter was already bad. But the Reds did not bomb, not because of humanity. Just had to fly to new airfields. The front line went very seriously forward. Or is it optional to go back?)
And new airdromes should either be captured or equipped. It's not flies - we fly where we want and fall where we want)
However, I do not mind.
Let the monument be double - Frunze hugs Wrangel. Maybe he will put an end to the Civil War)

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Albatroz

All found. And the corpses were counted)

Do not lie.

Quote: Albatroz

If owls. enz. notes that White managed to break away for 1-2 transitions.

Of course, it was possible if the cavalry was held in Simferopol. But would the Wrangelians on carts break away from the cavalry if she pursued them?

[Albatroz]

Do not lie.

Don't confuse me with yourself

if the cavalry was held in Simferopol.

would Wrangel carts break away from the cavalry

everything was arranged in advance. And an order for withdrawal followed immediately after forcing the Perekop red infantry, even before the introduction of the cavalry.
Therefore, there was a gain in 1-2 transitions.
By the way (for reference) the speed of the cavalry depends on many circumstances, this is not a race for you) sometimes slower carts) especially when it is restrained)

[Alexander Greene]

/

Quote: Albatroz

Therefore, there was a gain in 1-2 transitions.

It’s your business, consider it as you wish, only the fact exists that the 6th Army under the command of Cork entered Sevastopol on November 15th. I think that if the First and Second Cavalry armies had been ordered to pursue the enemy, they would catch up with the retreating even faster.

[Albatroz]

What does it have to do with whatever you want)
These are facts enshrined in the Soviet tablets. About exemplary organized departure and evacuation.
Unlike the mythical brake light of Frunze. So you consider what you want.
Moreover, Frunze's directive read, I quote: "Pursue the enemy until complete destruction."
A very interesting parallel with the Ulagaevsky landing.

Only on August 31st the Red Command correctly understands the situation and throws the Belay Group into belated pursuit in the following directions: a) Novo-Nizhe-Stebliyevskaya - Achuev, b) Novo-Nizhe-Stebliyevskaya - x. Smartly - Gear. Melnikovskoye 26th Brigade with the Taman Cavalry Brigade and the Don Cavalry Regiment. The persecution in the direction of the village. Black Sea - Achuev is entrusted to the Kovtyukh detachment, which was strengthened in the Slavic 2nd Taman Rifle Brigade (total of 3000 bayonets, 500 sabers). However, in both directions, the Soviet units are met by positions well prepared for defense — moreover, in narrow defile between floodplains and lakes. Knocking down the enemy’s barriers with persistent attacks, the 26th brigade and Kovtyukh’s detachment only reach Achuyev on September 7th and occupy it - in view of the enemy’s departing flotilla.

The landing party not only left, but also brought 10 thousand replenishment.
As you can see, the Wrangel Russian army evacuations were brilliant. And not only them

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Albatroz

These are facts enshrined in the Soviet tablets.

What you call facts are not, these are incorrect conclusions on facts.
I already wrote to you: think what you want, because arguing with a person who does not know how to distinguish facts from conclusions is pointless.

[Albatroz]

Traditionally, what exactly is a fact you don’t know)
Since the fact is that the evacuation operation was organized by Wrangel ahead of time and carried out exemplary. it fact.
The fact that Frunze helped him in this fact is not. There is no evidence.
However, you have traditionally long been equated by your speculations with the facts gentleman, and there is nothing to be surprised at. Insolent because they once wrote, and now you write - yes, mine view it is a fact. The hem of the chain mail should be exactly as I think, and not otherwise)
What is this if not megalomania in Sokolovsky style?
see also do not finish ...

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Albatroz

see also do not finish ...

"Jupiter", you are angry, then you are wrong.

[Albatroz]

I am not Jupiter and I am not angry at all. Yes and no one)
Just once again I’m trying to put you on the look of your alternative, which you are intensively promoting in historical sauce. Yes, once again I understand that it is useless)

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Albatroz

Yes, once again I understand that it is useless)

Blessed is he who believes.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

White general Romanovsky was shot dead by a white officer on April 5, 1920. Generals Kutepov and Miller were "transferred" to the OGPU-NKVD by their comrades-in-arms. There are also “vague doubts” about the causes of Wrangel’s death.
During the time of “troubles” in the European countries (Bulgaria, Spain) and during World War II, white emigrants rose on opposite sides of the front and engaged in mutual annihilation.

[bober1982]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Generals Kutepov and Miller were "transferred" to the OGPU-NKVD by their comrades-in-arms

These were not associates, but agents of the OGPU, the entire top of the ROVS was recruited, those who were not recruited were destroyed.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

In the civilian, they were associates. And they were considered as such until the exposure.

[knn54]

Even at school, the question "tormented" who Wrangel would have been if he had lived to see the beginning of World War II overpowered love for the Motherland (like Denikin's) over class hatred or not.

[Hunghuz]

"Class hatred" is a very interesting invention)
It is interesting to what classes Denikin and Lenin belonged?)
And what class did the Soviet general Vlasov belong to?)
About mythical hatred.
there was no class hatred. For most of the whites were from the same classes as the reds.
There was a hatred of Bolshevism. But hatred of Bolshevism as unfortunately for the Motherland was delimited from love for the Motherland. How microbes in the body are distinguished from the body itself.
And the vast majority of representatives of the white movement in the years of WWII fought against Hitlerism

[Olgovich]

“Listen, Russian people, for what we are fighting.
For desecrated faith and offended shrines.
For the liberation of the Russian people from the yoke of the Communists, vagabonds and convicts, who completely ruined Holy Russia.
For the termination of internecine warfare.
That the peasant, having acquired the land he cultivated, would engage in peaceful labor.
For true freedom and law to prevail in Russia.
For the Russian people to choose their own Master. ”

Better not say.

And this was the program of the entire Russian state.

The betrayal of former allies in World War I put the whites in a hopeless situation

Certainly: the destroyers of Russia, the Bolsheviks turned out to be more profitable for them than the United and powerful Russia

And then information was received in Crimea on the conclusion by the Poles of a truce with the Bolsheviks. The hostilities on the Soviet-Polish front ceased, and the Red Command was given the opportunity to throw all its forces into a single front - the Wrangel Front. The Polish representatives at Headquarters called such a truce ... a forced concession to England.

Still: both those and those hated Russia.

An excellent article about a Russian patriot, a front-line soldier, an officer who served her until the last breath.

Thanks to the author.

PS It is a pity that Crimea did not remain white because of the stupid betrayal of the West: it would be an excellent example for comparing the "achievements" of the Bolsheviks and real Russia.

However, comparing Finland with the USSR clearly answers this question: WHAT did Russia lose and what ... "gained"

We walked in dry and dusty darkness
On the hot Crimean clay
Bakhchisarai, like a khan in the saddle,
Dozing in a deep hollow.
And on this day in Chufut-Kale,
Tearing the immortals dry
I scratched on the rock:
Twentieth Year - Goodbye, Russia.

N. Turoverov

[Olgovich]

Exodus from Crimea

That night we left the chase
Saddled up their horses;
I lay on a rough blanket
Among sleeping tired people.
And remember, and remember until now
Our last Russian overnight,
- These stars of the seaside desert,
This blue shimmering snow.
Guarded us last grief
After the snowy Tatar fields -
Icy pontic sea
The icy soul of ships.
Everything will dry up - and tenderness, and anger,
We’ll forget what we must remember,
And stay with us until the grave
Only the name of a forgotten country.

N. Turover

The terrible, terrible tragedy of a divided people ....

[Dalton]

Amazing Olgovich!
And the comments and poems are great.
Thank you!

[icant007]

It is a pity that Crimea did not remain white because of the stupid betrayal of the West: it would be an excellent example for comparing the "achievements" of the Bolsheviks and real Russia.

However, comparing Finland with the USSR clearly answers this question: WHAT did Russia lose and what ... "gained"

There was another option with Primorye in 1921-22, and there the territory of the disease was several times over in Crimea. But alas, the White movement did not find the strength and wisdom to maintain control even in the Far East.

[Dalton]

The point is not in strength and wisdom, but in the balance of power.
Which gave time to calm down and begin to settle down or not

[icant007]

I believe all the same wisdom. There was no need to rush to Moscow and Petrograd. Initially, it was necessary to gain a foothold in those territories that sympathized with the White movement. And to try to take control of industrial areas where it was possible to organize military production - for example, Donbass, Ural. Well, since the White movement was filled mainly with ideas of revanchism - to return what was lost, it turned out as always: "we do not store what we have." We chased the crane in the sky, but even the titmouse did not remain in our hands. Only a duck under the bed ....

[Dalton]

I believe all the same wisdom. There was no need to rush to Moscow and Petrograd.

And who was eager, is it not Wrangel?
And his predecessors almost reached) Do you know how to treat the infection? The faster - the better, less metastasis)

[icant007]

I’m not talking about Wrangel specifically, but about the goal-setting of the White movement as a whole. That's exactly what ALMOST got. And in a couple of months they lost even more than they had.

[icant007]

And by the way, Wrangel himself was against an attack on Moscow. He considered it more correct to move in the direction of Tsaritsyn to join with Kolchak. On this basis, a conflict arose between Denikin and Wrangel. To see Denikin cherished the dream of being the first to settle down in Moscow. That dream. Framed everyone. As a result, after the defeat, I did not find anything smarter than how to resign.

[Dalton]

Goal setting is generally adequate.
It was necessary to get to the bone of the worm apple as soon as possible. Until the worms had time to gain a foothold.
Plan and coordinate. Yes, there are problems.
But this is the Civil War, where everything is spontaneous and fleeting

[unknown]

The Bolsheviks-just a tool for the destruction of Russia. The Bolsheviks were financed from abroad, they were led by the Commintern, and the Commintern himself was financed by the financiers of the USA, Great Britain and France.
On the territory of Russia during the so-called Civil War, up to 1 million foreign soldiers acted. The interventionists helped both sides, for their mutual weakening.

[apro]

Quote: ignoto

Bolsheviks funded from abroad

With a book of accounting pzhlst .. who. How much. Why race mother?

[ALEXEY VLADIMIROVICH]

Quote: ignoto

In Russia during the years of the so-called Civil War, up to 1 million foreign soldiers acted

Not more than 210-220 thousand military personnel. Moreover, 70 thousand Japanese and 50 thousand Czechoslovakians. That the United States and then England supported the Soviets was not hiding. Until the ultimatum from England to Wrangel demanding an end to the struggle. But France, having disagreements with Krasnov and Denikin, supported the Russian army of Wrangel and paid for the maintenance of Russian troops in exile.

[andrewkor]

Wrangel is the odious Enemy of the working people! The earth is glassy to him!

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

"Don't dig a hole for another, you will fall into it yourself"

[Gardamir]

After the Reds defeated, there were some heroes of the civil war. After the coup. which was arranged by Yeltsin, Sobchak and the company, they are pushing anti-people power and their heroes. Interesting, those who praise the article, is that the newly-arrived noblemen and landowners?

[Dalton]

Interesting, those who praise the article, is that the newly-arrived noblemen and landowners?

These are truly RUSSIAN people

[Gardamir]

RUSSIAN

And my father was seriously wounded during the liberation of the city of Zaporozhye in the autumn of 1943? And we are still Kuznetsov.
Yours, in order to resist, not only started the civil war, but also called on the interventionists, all these Americans, the French. Japanese ... Yours and now are ready to partner with the same bourgeoisie from around the world. But about the Russian people think lack of time.

[Dalton]

And what does Zaporozhye have to do with 43 years ??
Why confuse scrambled eggs and bacon?
My grandfather, too, Kharkov and Belgorod freed.
I’m talking about something else - the red era of Wrangel prayed to the International.
As soon as they embraced national principles (that is, they followed in the footsteps of Wrangel), they all succeeded.
So one of the two is that the International and the world revolution (for which Russia is only a breeding ground) or Russia itself is more important.
This is the meaning of my phrase above)

[Gardamir]

meaning

And the point is. that yours, in order to maintain their power, have called on the international from all over the planet, even Australians.

[Dalton]

to maintain their power called on the international from all over the planet

first, call on spirits or genies)
secondly, those who came to the outskirts of the Republic of Ingushetia (not with those goals and in the wrong quantities as often ascribed, oh well), had their own tasks. And they did not need calls, and so would have come. Some in order to prevent property from falling into the hands of the Germans, others to safeguard their interests, etc. They came without asking.
Thirdly, some leaders of the White movement, who resorted to outside help, perceived it as help from the Allies (considering themselves the successor to the all-Russian government).
And there was a healthy desire to only use foreigners in their interests. No more. As the leaders themselves write.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Quote: Gardamir

meaning

And the point is. that yours, in order to maintain their power, have called on the international from all over the planet, even Australians.

And your reds then, they gave these internationalists free of charge and donated their lands for which they fought and shed blood, they also supplied them with money later.

[unknown]

The help of the interventionists to the Bolsheviks was much more significant.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: ignoto

The help of the interventionists to the Bolsheviks was much more significant.

That's for sure! They specifically behaved in such a way that the Bolsheviks looked like defenders of Russian statehood, as a result of which thousands of white officers were forced to join the Red Army.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Gardamir

And we are still Kuznetsov.

There are almost all Ivanovs ....

[Gardamir]

Almost all

However, pray for Kolchakov, Wrangel, for the Russian officer of Mannerheim ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: Gardamir

However, pray for Kolchakov, Wrangels

To Russia and all its Heroes.

[Gardamir]

To Russia and all its Heroes.

I would like to hope that at least we are united here. But there are heroes of Russia Anatoly Serdyukov and Ramzan Kadyrov ...

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

And my father was seriously wounded during the liberation of the city of Zaporozhye in the autumn of 1943? And we are still Kuznetsov.

Honor and praise be for them, the right thing they did, just like all the other people who took up a rifle and went to defend their homeland. All these people who went to fight against the Germans, they fought not for the red and white, but for their homeland, so as not to be a slave to the Nazis and save the Russian people and our nation.

Yours, in order to resist, not only started the civil war, but also called on the interventionists, all these Americans, the French. Japanese ... Yours and now are ready to partner with the same bourgeoisie from around the world. But about the Russian people think lack of time.

Notice and understand only one thing: - Yours then the Bolsheviks, these invaders their own conquered lands (for which ordinary people shed their blood) they donated them for free, and they donated part of the state treasury as well.

[Gardamir]

Notice and understand

I do not understand! For me, the whites were until October 1917 and returned again in August 1991

Your then the Bolsheviks

So in a civil war, it’s hard to consider one as a hero, and the other not. After all, where did I start, the Reds were in power, there were red heroes. Now the authorities are white and the heroes are white. And reckon, who gave something stupid. Nicholas the Bloody Lost the war with Japan, by 17, successfully, despite the successes, began to merge this war. And someone can explain why he renounced. So the Bolsheviks at that time had no particular choice. Former allies of the Entente at the same time with Germany nibbled who where he could and who as much as he could.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

I do not understand!

Why? You can understand the fact that they gave (red) Finland, the Bosphorus and at the same time, they also paid money for it.

For me, the whites were until October 1917 and returned again in August 1991

Yes, no one returned in August 1991, since there was no one to return. And there were only the Reds who themselves destroyed their country and they, again, came these 1991 years, only had already changed their rhetoric from communism to democracy.

So in a civil war, it’s hard to consider one as a hero, and the other not.

I understood that you had to introduce it. Civil war is a very complicated process when native people are at war with each other. If we take into account the fact that those people who took the oath to their country and then did not back down from this oath words, but continued to fight for it, here you can safely call these people heroes.

Nicholas the Bloody Lost the war with Japan,

Unfortunately this is so, but there were reasons for this.

And someone can explain why he renounced.

Most likely, so that there would be no bloody war in the country, between their own people. So he renounced in favor of his brother Constantine and the throne had a new ruler, but the Bolsheviks also forced him to abdicate.

So the Bolsheviks at that time had no particular choice.

They just had a choice and all this could be done without a bloody war. It was not necessary to kill the Tsar’s family, this murder only prompted the whites to start a large-scale fight with the Reds.

Former allies of the Entente at the same time with Germany nibbled who where he could and who as much as he could.

Yes, they gnawed off our lands, and the Reds only contributed to this, when they began to give our countries pieces of land for free to these countries.

[Gardamir]

You can understand the fact that they gave it. Unfortunately, this is true, but there were reasons for this.

And you can explain why in peacetime the territories of Norway, China, Azerbaijan, and Kazakhstan were surrendered. And in Siberia, what is being done is not given back. but in fact it’s not ours anymore

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

And you can explain why in peacetime the territories of Norway, China, Azerbaijan, and Kazakhstan were surrendered.

This all comes from the very reds who ruined their country and gave all lands. And all this is very bad.

. And in Siberia, what is being done is not given back. but in fact it’s not ours anymore

And I won’t even comment on it; you won’t write without a bottle here.

[Kronos]

What kind of Bosphorus did the Reds give if it did not belong and was not captured by Russian troops? Or did you forget that the Allies soon left there, realizing that the Turkish people could not cope which is against occupation?

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

What kind of Bosphorus did the Reds give if it did not belong and was not captured by Russian troops?

General N.N. Yudenich defeated the Turks, and thus, these straits passed to him and other countries confirmed this. He gave these straits to the Reds, but they refused them and gave them back to the Turks, and then also to the Turks, they gave money for free.

Or did you forget that the Allies soon left there, realizing that the Turkish people could not cope which is against occupation?

They left (France and England), and General N.N. Yudenich was able to win and capture these straits and, by agreement of France, England, these straits gave us.

[Kronos]

AH by agreement, which of course they were going to comply with as everyone else complied But in general, there were no communists in power in Britain or France, but they were forced to let go of their colony because the time had come

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

AH by agreement, which of course they were going to comply with as everyone else complied

They even didn’t need any agreements there, since our troops were already with them. Here's the doc. Film, everything is said about it there.

[Kronos]

I trust historians like Yegor Yakovlev more than biased monarchists

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Quote: Kronos

I trust historians like Yegor Yakovlev more than biased monarchists

So I trust facts and official papers more than biased comments.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

General N.N. Yudenich defeated the Turks, and thus, these straits crossed over to him and other countries confirmed this.

Virtual property is awesome!

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Of course it's cool! But they wanted to transfer this virtual property to the Reds, but they refused it, and then they gave the money to the Turks.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

But they wanted to transfer only this virtual property to the Reds, but they refused

Firstly, do you really believe in the promises of the Entente?

And secondly, "we do not need the Turkish coast, we do not need a foreign country." Soviet Russia is not an imperialist state, it was built on new principles, and by its rejection of annexations and indemnities, it broke through the blockade organized by the Entente

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Firstly, do you really believe in the promises of the Entente?

Of course not, but I proceed from those historical facts and documents that exist. Ours returned their territories.

And secondly, "we do not need the Turkish coast, we do not need a foreign country."

These are our lands, the Reds gave them away, and then they probably regretted it a million times when they began to forbid us to pass through these straits.

Soviet Russia is not an imperialist state, it was built on new principles, and with its rejection of annexations and indemnities, it broke through the blockade organized by the Entente

This was not a blockade or annexation, but returned their original territories.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

.Our returned, their territories ...... These are our lands, the red ones gave them away,

You already rave like Olgievich.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

No, it’s you when you start writing about your Reds, who destroyed their own country.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

See how ordinary people joyfully and respectfully greet White officers and soldiers.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

What's this! You look at the pictures of how ordinary people treated Lenin! These were joy and respect!

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Quote: Sugar Honeyovich

What's this! You look at the pictures of how ordinary people treated Lenin! These were joy and respect!

Where are these pictures?

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Here:

Still here:
Still here:

And here:

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

The first two pictures - he is at the fair, he buys products. And the last two - he is with relatives. And in all four pictures, no one meets with respect and colors, nothing at all.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

A fair near the house? Some strange fair - not a single product is noticeable! Nobody greets with flowers, because he has not just arrived, but has been here for a long time and constantly meets, communicates with ordinary people, incl. with kids. "About nothing" ...

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Fair near the house?

This is not a house, but an office. And this picture was painted before the revolution. When he was a simple worker yet.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

See how ordinary people joyfully and respectfully greet White officers and soldiers.

You better insert an icon - it will be more convincing.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Quote: Alexander Green

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

See how ordinary people joyfully and respectfully greet White officers and soldiers.

You better insert an icon - it will be more convincing.

It is sacred and cannot be scattered with such things. The whites are also saints, they also fought for Orthodox people. Unlike the reds.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

The whites are also saints

Yes, holier does not happen, the people have inadvertently kicked them out of the country.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Not the people, but the Bolsheviks.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

Not the people, but the Bolsheviks

Enough whistle on this topic. There were Bolsheviks; once or twice he got counted, and in the Red Army even less, without the people they would not have done anything.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Quote: Alexander Green

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

Not the people, but the Bolsheviks

Enough whistle on this topic. There were Bolsheviks; once or twice he got counted, and in the Red Army even less, without the people they would not have done anything.

And those who swore allegiance to them and joined the party and were a Bolshevik, not a simple citizen. So with the Bolsheviks, the struggle was waged and not with the people. Enough of the whistle, about the Bolshevik.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

And those who swore allegiance to them and joined the party and were a Bolshevik, not a simple citizen. So with the Bolsheviks, the struggle was waged and not with the people. Enough of the whistle, about the Bolshevik.

In your opinion, in my opinion. something is wrong with the brains.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Just like yours, there is no country for a long time already, and you are still wandering about it and the Bolsheviks, only a doctor can help you here, and to start, take a pill, probably forgot to take the pill in the morning. Yes.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

Like you, there’s been no country for a long time, and you’re still wandering about it and the Bolsheviks,

The USSR is the first attempt to build a communist society, and no matter how malicious you are, the future lies with it.

"If you give a short description of the anatomy of a communist society, it will be such a society:
a) where there will be no private ownership of implements and means of production, but public, collective property;
b) where there will be no classes and state power, but there will be workers in industry and agriculture, economically governed, as a free association of workers;
c) where the national economy, organized according to the plan, will be based on high technology both in industry and in agriculture;
d) where there will be no opposition between town and country, between industry and agriculture;
e) where the products will be distributed according to the principle of the old French Communists: “from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”;
e) where science and art will use the conditions favorable enough to achieve full prosperity;
g) where a person, free from worries about a piece of bread and the need to accommodate to the "powerful of the world", will become really free "
(I.V. Stalin, SS, T. 10, S.134)

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

The USSR is the first attempt to build a communist society, and no matter how malicious you are, the future lies with it.

There was already such a society, only the truth did not last long. If, as you say, everything was fine, why didn’t anyone go to hold and defend this power in the country so that it would continue to be and act? There will be no more of your communism (since people already fully felt the charms of paradise life), and even assuming that it will (and even then, this is unlikely), only in a limited form, according to the Chinese scenario, where everything will be mixed up ( this is no longer communism, but a semblance of it). And you are already more than 30 years old, so everyone lives with some hopes that are not and will never be, it is time to start evaluating real things.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

There will be no more of your communism

Do not flatter yourself, this does not depend on you. This is the law of the development of society. Pay attention to the first bourgeois revolutions, did they win immediately? No, there were refusals again to the monarchy, in France, for example, it took almost 100 years.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

And Spain says the opposite, at first they destroyed the monarchy, and now they have revived it again.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

And Spain says the opposite, at first they destroyed the monarchy, and now they have revived it again.

In vain do you try to refute the laws of human development.

Firstly, its development proceeds in a spiral - reciprocating, evolutionary and revolutionary. All previous formations are repeated, but at a higher level. The history of mankind began with primitive communist communism, and on our turn of the spiral ahead communism shines ahead on a new level.

Secondly, the change of formations is not an instantaneous process; it takes an entire era. That is why sometimes a partial restoration of the old system occurs. I have already given you the example of France, I thought that you yourself would understand everything. It turned out - no.

I remind you. The Great French Revolution of 1787 overthrew the monarchy, but internal counter-revolution and external intervention contributed to its revival, followed by a series of revolutions of 1830, 1848, 1871, which established the present French Republic.

So Spain is still ahead.

PS Advice: to deal with this issue, study the textbooks on diamat and istmat.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Alexander, the monarchy cannot be revived now, since there is no heir to the throne. And communism cannot be revived either, since people have already passed through this and their private property, no one will give it back. And you can restore it only by force, personally to you Will this war be necessary? (I personally do not need it), why again sacrifice people? Each of us now speaks and expresses his position, which is closer to him and nothing more.

Tip: to deal with this issue, study the textbooks on diamat and istmat.

You are interested in this topic, if it’s not difficult for you, please kindly discard the link or the authors of the topic you submitted, at your leisure you can scroll through.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

We cannot revive the monarchy now, since there is no heir to the throne. And communism also cannot be revived, since people have already passed through this and their private property, no one will give

As for the monarchy, it may be true, but as for communism, no.
The fact is that large private property is concentrated in a maximum of 3-5% of the population, this is mainly oil, gas, coal mining, energy, defense industry, etc., which should belong to the whole nation, or at least in state property, nobody is going to take away small property (it itself will die), and moreover nobody will encroach on personal property.
As for the links, I’ll try to search and send.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

You are interested in this topic, if it’s not difficult for you, please kindly discard the link or the authors of the topic you submitted, at your leisure you can scroll through.

If you are really interested, I recommend to visit the "Working Way" website at the link
https://work-way.com/literatura/,
there you will find all the necessary literature.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

By the way, in this picture the common people are not visible. And ordinary people in fact did meet whites like this:

[Dalton]

In fact, people met everyone differently.
No need to demonize or idealize anyone.
But ..
Read the recollections of eyewitnesses about White’s liberation of Kharkov on June 25, 1919.
And even Tambov (or Kozlov I don’t remember) met the Mammoths with a bell ringing. in the Soviet book it is written by the way.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Dalton

No need to demonize or idealize anyone.

But many here are doing just that.
Met - yes, in different ways. Not only that - they could have met like that, but conducted quite differently.
As the White Guards testify:
“The Bolsheviks took food, cattle, everything they needed from the peasants, showing in practice what socialism and commune were. And the peasants greeted us as deliverers.
During the offensive in the Kursk province, we occupied the village ...
Two weeks later, these peasants partisaned in our rear.
...
“Well, it’s good that we didn’t take Moscow, we would be swept out of there with a broom,” Ignatius, the wounded pioneer seven times wounded, ended his story ...
- What next? The peasantry is driving us, the collapse in the rear is in full swing and already infects combat units, the Cossacks do not want to fight either "(A.R. Trushnovich)

“... everywhere, both in Russia and abroad, they shouted about the atrocities of the red check and considered this one of the main trump cards of their propaganda. The population looked, compared and made conclusions. These conclusions, reinforced by our insane robberies, were such that our retreating troops were often fired upon by the inhabitants of the villages we left.
...
It was not for nothing that the convoys of our units and certain lagging behind groups of people from the departing regiments were subjected to mass extermination by residents. The hatred of our population in the region of Slavyansk, Raisins, and all the way to Rostov was the same as in Crimea.

... if the white armies of the South with those leaders who were then ... reappeared in Russia, they would soon provoke an all-out uprising of the population. Only an enemy of Russia can let them into Russia. (E.I.Dostavalov)

[Dalton]

Your post Sugar is only a skillfully selected set (selection) of quotes that came to your court.
You can bring a dozen of the opposite nature. That's why it is a civil war.
To be honest, the color dive is fed up.
Listen to what I tell you to be understood correctly.
For the one and only time. Perhaps, in my heart, I love Soviet power far more than yours. But I will never forgive her for having degenerated into an oligarchy and ultimately turned Russia into a raw-material colony of the whole world. The chicks of the nest of dialectical materialism still desecrate the Kremlin.
Once they built a semblance of socialism - for a limited circle of people for a limited period of time. But at the cost of what sacrifices! ” Was it worth it, especially considering what it was now? Think for yourself.
Well, white, what white?
Most of them are the same socialists. Check out their ideological attitudes. Socialist-Revolutionaries, Mensheviks.
Less often cadets. And most importantly.
First, they lost - but the dead do not have shame. I have no complaints against them. At the present stage.
And secondly (quite likely) their path, the path of orientation to European values ​​and to a person, and not to a mythical idea, was true. If they had won, we would have lived like Finland now. Who knows.
So on one side of the scales - those who eventually scoffed (red) and - those who, for objective reasons, did not manage to rule our country (white). The first that has done - we see now, and the second ...
But what if?)

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

No, it's the Bolsheviks, not the common people. Simple people sat at home.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

Simple people sat at home.

White didn’t think so

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Quote: Sugar Honeyovich

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

Simple people sat at home.

White didn’t think so

Igor, That's right, the Bolsheviks were there, not the common people. The Reds involved the common people in this war, and then also threw them. And the Whites protected them from the Bolsheviks.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

there were Bolsheviks, not ordinary people

Where is it, Sergey?

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

The Reds involved the common people in this war, and then also threw them

How do you think it looked in reality?

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

White defended them from the Bolsheviks

With such "defenders" enemies are not necessary.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Where is it, Sergey?

About what you wrote.

How do you think it looked in reality?

Propaganda and all that.

With such "defenders" enemies are not necessary.

But unfortunately, there were enemies like the Bolsheviks.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

You are hard to understand. Excuse me.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

You are hard to understand.

Just like you.

Sorry.

All right.

[Kronos]

What our lands Istanbul and straits were never Russian

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

The ones that are captured on the video, which I posted to you video.

[Dalton]

I trust more historians like Yegor Yakovlev

What sciences is this historian?
Type?

[Kronos]

Yegor Nikolaevich Yakovlev - historian, journalist, editor. Specialist in the political history of the XNUMXth century. Member of the social movement \ "The Essence of Time \". Author of books and a number of articles, incl. on the history of the legal profession and political trials in Russia, Alexander II.
More details on livelib.ru:
https://www.livelib.ru/author/1190500-egor-yakovlev

[Dalton]

You never said what sciences.
I will answer for you. None.
Publicist in the toga of a historian. Tribute to the time)

[Karen]

Quote: Kronos

Or did you forget that the Allies soon left there, realizing that the Turkish people could not cope which is against occupation?

He wrote a hundred times ... France began to help Kemal with arms (including against England) - to attract the Bolsheviks against Russia !!!
Well described in the book "Franco-Turkish Relations and Cilicia in 1918-1923" ... by Sahakyan

[Hunghuz]

Until October 17 there were no white whites, there were Russians Gardamir)
White appeared, like the red, with the outbreak of the Civil War. Well, who is the culprit, the question is very interesting)

[Olgovich]

Quote: Gardamir

After the Reds won, they were alone heroes of the civil war.

Who are your heroes of the war, tell me, do mercy.

These are the heroes1: Yakirs, Blucher, Rods, Kutyakovs, Uborevichs, Watsetsis and the like.

or heroes 2 who destroyed heroes 1.?

or heroes 3, who destroyed heroes 2, who destroyed heroes 1.?

or heroes 4, destroying heroes 3, destroying from heroes 2, destroying heroes 1.?

are heroes 5 ... rehabilitating heroes 1?

Choose, please, No. and at least bring some logical circuit ,

With Russian heroes, yes, there are NO such problems.

[cost]

It is a pity that this cycle of articles by A. Oleinikov has ended. The author was not stingy in the photo and documents. Special thanks to the author for the style of presentation of the material. It was nice to read. thank
Pleased and comments

[Gardamir]

Who are your heroes

Well, if you divide into ours and yours, then Chapaev against Kolchak. Budyonny at the time of the Civil War was a dashing grunt. Frunze ...
Of yours you are probably especially proud of Krasnov

[Olgovich]

Quote: Gardamir

Well, if you divide into ours and yours, then Chapaev against Kolchak. Budyonny at the time of the Civil War was a dashing grunt. Frunze ...

I gave you other surnames: for example, the biggest friend and red associate of Chapaev Kutyakova: turned out to be a fascist, a traitor - shot and dug in the middle of nowhere ...
Hero / no? are we silent?

Quote: Gardamir

Budyonny at the time of the Civil War was a dashing grunt.

Who has an enemy wife? Yeah....

Quote: Gardamir

Of yours you are probably especially proud of Krasnov

Where is it?

You still have not answered the SIMPLE question: what numbers do you have heroes?
Hard, huh?

PS Do not forget that more than half of the commanders are red. war fronts destroyed by comrades in the struggle: turned out to be spies, traitors (and fascist)

[Gardamir]

You have not answered the simplest question

I don’t like it, but this is your position, I mean your love for tsarist Russia. but do not hold me for cattle.
As for the times of the Civil War, this time does not interest me. For myself, I was more interested in the 18th century and the first half of the 19th.
But for me it’s an axiom that many White Guards served the Nazis in the hope of returning their estates and flogging Russian slaves.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

As for the times of the Civil War, this time does not interest me. For myself, I was more interested in the 18th century and the first half of the 19th.

This is our story and you need to know it. And each person likes different sections of this story.

But for me it’s an axiom that many White Guards served the Nazis in the hope of returning their estates and flogging Russian slaves.

And how many Reds did the Germans serve? too much, passed to them. And this is also very bad.

[Gardamir]

This is our story and you need to know it.

I agree, but somehow I was more interested in other times.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

Your right and you no one can prohibit.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Gardamir

I don’t like it, but this is your position, I mean your love for tsarist Russia. but do not hold me for cattle.

1.This ... where ?!
2. I have a love for Russia under any authority.

Quote: Gardamir

As for the times of the Civil War, this time does not interest me. For myself, I was more interested in the 18th century and the first half of the 19th.

However, you are commenting on the topic of HS. on the topic of your comment about the heroes and the question arose about them. Which is logical.

Quote: Gardamir

But for me it’s an axiom that many White Guards served the Nazis in the hope of returning their estates and flogging Russian slaves.

This is from illiteracy and laziness to know the history of their country.
And about flogging slaves (as well as burning hair and other tortures against peasants), read in letters of Sholokhov to Stalin.

[motorized rifle]

Well, how can there be no problems with "Russian heroes"? It is easier to list the generals who remained loyal to the Oath and the Tsar, for example, Khan of Nakhichevan and Keller's "first checker of Russia" than those who betrayed all these Alekseevs, Kornilovs, Romanovs, etc. etc. What did they not deserve to receive for betrayal? Lenin in Zurich suffered that a revolution was impossible in the near future, but here on you, their Excellencies (without the generals the February revolution was in no way possible!) Overthrew the Tsar and rushed! The Bolsheviks are right there, the Germans, the British, etc., and everyone thinks about their own, nobody is about the people. No, there was no one to blame without guilt in the White movement. We must be honest about this.

[Olgovich]

Quote: motorized infantryman

Well, how can there be no problems with "Russian heroes"? It is easier to list the generals who remained loyal to the Oath and the Tsar, for example, Khan of Nakhichevan and Keller's "first checker of Russia" than those who betrayed all these Alekseevs, Kornilovs, Romanovs, etc. etc.

What nonsense is this?
Who and when betrayed the oath, what are the numbers?
Listed did not betray anyone

Quote: motorized infantryman

and here on you, their excellencies (without the generals the February Revolution was not possible in any way!) they overthrow the Tsar and raced!

You would have to learn the CHRONOLOGY of February to start: it happened February 27 , and the generals there and didn't smell. But foreign tourists stink of good: read cr. Course vkpbee.

[motorized rifle]

You, too, otherwise they would have read communion stories. And then you depict the innocence of generals and the revolution you have 27, uzhos! Here is the chronology:

The February Revolution in Russia (February 25-26, old style).
Education (February 27) by members of the progressive bloc of the Provisional Committee of the State Duma, chaired by M. Rodzianko.
Education (February 27) by representatives of the socialist parties of the Petrograd Soviet of Workers' Deputies. N. Chkheidze (leader of the Menshevik faction in the Duma) was elected Chairman of the Petrosoviet, Socialist Revolutionary A. Kerensky (leader of the Trudovik faction in the Duma) and Menshevik M. Skobelev were elected comrades.
The refusal of the command of the Russian army in support of Emperor Nicholas II and his abdication (March 2) in favor of Mikhail Romanov.
The abdication (March 2) of Mikhail Romanov at the request of deputies of the Duma postponing the decision on the form of government until the Constituent Assembly

[motorized rifle]

I repeat once again, without the participation of the RIA generals, no Provisional Government in Petrograd could not resist; there was someone and what to clean up the city with! So the February Revolution would have been crushed in the bud. And you continue to live in empireia and sing the hosanna to the white movement, just put on either a cross or underpants. Either the Empire with the power of the Emperor is dear to you, or the liberalism of the white movement, and these are the antogonists, I am silent about the Bolsheviks, here you have a corn.

[Olgovich]

Quote: motorized infantryman

I repeat once again, without the participation of the RIA generals, no Provisional Government in Petrograd could not resist; there was someone and what to clean up the city with!

VP ALREADY was, but the generals have not yet been.
With mopping-up in March, they were late: this is gr. war, which the generals and the Emperor wanted to avoid

Quote: motorized infantryman

And you continue to live in empireia and sing the hosanna to the white movement, just put on either a cross or underpants.

and you are floating in what the Bolsheviks ended up in, and best of all, without anything (i.e. exactly what the people got from them)

Quote: motorized infantryman

Either the Empire with the power of the Emperor is dear to you, or the liberalism of the white movement, and these are the antogonists, I am silent about the Bolsheviks, here you have a corn.

The greatest value is Russia and its happy people.

And they were much better at the first. than with the latter, in which by 91 g they had suffered unprecedented losses: the Russian cross and the borders of the 17th century.

[Olgovich]

Quote: motorized infantryman

You, too, otherwise they would have read communion stories. And then you depict the innocence of generals and the revolution you have 27, uzhos! Here is the chronology:
The February Revolution in Russia (February 25-26, old style).
Education (February 27) by members of the progressive bloc of the Provisional Committee of the State Duma, chaired by M. Rodzianko.
Education (February 27) by representatives of the socialist parties of the Petrograd Soviet of Workers' Deputies. N. Chkheidze (leader of the Menshevik faction in the Duma) was elected Chairman of the Petrosoviet, Socialist Revolutionary A. Kerensky (leader of the Trudovik faction in the Duma) and Menshevik M. Skobelev were elected comrades.
The refusal of the command of the Russian army in support of Emperor Nicholas II and his abdication (March 2) in favor of Mikhail Romanov.
The abdication (March 2) of Mikhail Romanov at the request of deputies of the Duma postponing the decision on the form of government until the Constituent Assembly

You see, we finally learned that no the generals did NOT have any relation to February revolution; they are NOT 27 February. neither in Petrograd nor in the VK and in the Council.
All that follows is a REACTION to her.
WHERE a betrayal of the Oath, file a rejection.

[sergo1914]

Quote: Olgovich

With Russian heroes, yes, there are NO such problems.

Shkuro, Krasnov, Klych, Domanov. No problems.

[Dalton]

These Skins with Krasnov already dragged)
Only they will have a dozen Russian generals who fought against Hitlerism.
And a dozen Soviet generals aiding Hitlerism

[sergo1914]

Quote: Dalton

These Skins with Krasnov already dragged)
Only they will have a dozen Russian generals who fought against Hitlerism.
And a dozen Soviet generals aiding Hitlerism

Will you bring lists?

[Dalton]

And I see you are a big fan of grazing due to the information that you see in the comments ...
As with anyone else - so require specifics.
And how to carry nonsense themselves is nothing) Have you given any lists to anyone? Or is the master only demanding?

[sergo1914]

Quote: Dalton

And I see you are a big fan of grazing due to the information that you see in the comments ...
As with anyone else - so require specifics.
And how to carry nonsense themselves is nothing) Have you given any lists to anyone? Or is the master only demanding?

Well, I provided a little list. From several surnames. And you, look, a big specialist in tearing masks and hanging labels. But with the argument - trouble. Good. I will help. I'll start for you.
1. Vlasov ... Continue, you are our talkative ...

[Dalton]

Lists?
from 2 beaten surnames (Krasnov and Shkuro). There’s not much mind to it.
More precisely, the indicator of nearness. That is your trouble.
No need to help me. I will help you. For only in the ROA were 5 Soviet generals and 25 colonels. Enough?

[sergo1914]

Quote: Dalton

Lists?
from 2 beaten surnames (Krasnov and Shkuro). There’s not much mind to it.
More precisely, the indicator of nearness. That is your trouble.
No need to help me. I will help you. For only in the ROA were 5 Soviet generals and 25 colonels. Enough?

This is a list of the hanged in the Vlasov case.
During the years of World War II, 78 Soviet generals were captured. 26 of them died in captivity, six escaped from captivity, the rest after the end of the war were repatriated to the Soviet Union. 32 people were repressed. Not all of them were traitors. On the basis of Stavka’s order of August 16, 1941, “On cases of cowardice and surrender and measures to suppress such actions,” 13 people were shot, eight more were sentenced to imprisonment for “improper behavior in captivity.”

2 battered surnames? Why were they beaten? It’s your brain that seems to be battered. You can’t count to 4. Klych and Domanov are also surnames.
Try to eat well regularly. Including meat products. Baska without good food resists thinking well. You seem to have this case.

[Dalton]

Wikipedia studied, I see. Quote correctly))
2 beaten surnames? Beaten means worn out. Rush with a red and skin like a bogey, a red rag. For there is no one else to present)
But for 2 renegades, there are dozens of White Guard anti-fascists.

This is a list of the hanged in the Vlasov case.

True, there were even more of them. So what about my question:
5 Soviet generals and 25 colonels (only those convicted in the Vlasov case for serving the Reich) are pulling the skin and Krasnova?)

[sergo1914]

Quote: Dalton

Wikipedia studied, I see. Quote correctly))
2 beaten surnames? Beaten means worn out. Rush with a red and skin like a bogey, a red rag. For there is no one else to present)
But for 2 renegades, there are dozens of White Guard anti-fascists.

This is a list of the hanged in the Vlasov case.

True, there were even more of them. So what about my question:
5 Soviet generals and 25 colonels (only those convicted in the Vlasov case for serving the Reich) are pulling the skin and Krasnova?)

Learn to finally count more than two. For alternatively gifted. Toothfish Domanov. Or is there a taboo on these names?

[Dalton]

Well, firstly, not Klych, but the Sultan-Giray. Learn to call a spade a spade.
Secondly, these 4 characters have hundreds of such patriots as Denikin, Wojciechowski or Eliseev.
But at least they are not a product of the Soviet system, these Shkuro and Krasnovs. The Soviet system disfigured them all their lives. You can even understand them.
But how to understand the products of this system, nurtured, educated and swearing allegiance to her - from Vlasov to Medvedev and Putin?
So 5 Soviet generals and 25 colonels (who were only convicted in the Vlasov case for serving the Reich) are they pulling in the skin, Krasnov, and Domanov with the Sultan-Girey (since you have nowhere to go without the last two)?

[sniperino]

Quote: Gardamir

Interesting, those who praise the article, is that the newly-arrived noblemen and landowners?

You show some very selective love for Russia: the USSR + Slavic antiquities with a Sumerian bias. Everything else will be alien and incomprehensible.

[AU Ivanov.]

In the Civil, fratricidal war, there are no heroes and cannot be. This is the most disgraceful page of our history.

[sniperino]

Quote: AS Ivanov.

This is the most disgraceful page of our history.

Was the princely civil strife less shameful? Most of the participants in these tragic events are not disgraced: on both sides heroes and traitors fought, who are identified individually; it is impossible to smear these sides with different colors and on this basis only to make from some heroes, and from others - traitors.

[Gardamir]

In the Civil, fratricidal war, there are no heroes and cannot be

I agree completely. But I must add, "for all time." Because in August 1991, three of the dead were made heroes, just to spite the outgoing Soviet Union.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Gardamir

Interesting, those who praise the article, is that the newly-arrived noblemen and landowners?

Possible, but not required. There are people who like to criticize. If whites had won a century ago, these "critics" would now curse them as "executioners of the people" and "stranglers of freedom" and would praise the red "heroes who fell for the happiness of the people."

[Hunghuz]

The general’s sudden death raises big questions.
The elimination of people (that is, actually terrorist methods), it does not matter whether they are killed or stolen, becomes a tidbit of the competent services. Although somehow in a Socialist Revolutionary style ...

[Dalton]

becomes a tidbit of the competent services

Absolutely.
From Trotsky to Litvinenko

[Gepard]

For the Russian people to choose their Owner "

Yeah. Already for one it was worth expelling him.

[Dalton]

And after Wrangel were not the hosts? Moreover, in a single personal number (Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev).
However, Wrangel did not mean Ivanov, Petrov or Sidorov, as you thought, remembering the Soviet past ...

[unknown]

Eight different Lenins are present on the preserved film and photo materials.
Moreover, the images recognized as textbook are images of the worker Nikanorov.
And the most dissimilar Lenin is "Lenin in Razliv" - Nikolai Karpov, who, apparently, was the true prototype of "Lenin". Killed in 1918.

[sergo1914]

Quote: ignoto

Eight different Lenins are present on the preserved film and photo materials.
Moreover, the images recognized as textbook are images of the worker Nikanorov.
And the most dissimilar Lenin is "Lenin in Razliv" - Nikolai Karpov, who, apparently, was the true prototype of "Lenin". Killed in 1918.

Meat is necessary for people who use their brain in professional activities. Because the head without good food resists thinking well. There is simply no other explanation for this nonsense.

[Gepard]

Well yes. He had in mind about the master John, George and other overseas.

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

P.N. Wrangel carried out a number of successful reforms.

Yes, he knew how to organize and plan everything correctly and correctly, unlike the Bolsheviks.

"The lands of the Cossack Troops are independent with respect to self-government, but with the complete submission of the Cossack armed forces to the Commander-in-Chief."

It was a good idea, but unfortunately the red sweat, many parts of the land, presented to other countries.

The Russian army was also reformed. The army was reorganized on a regular basis. There was a struggle with the non-combatant element and the excessively sprawling rear. Restored in the rear.

Great, managed in a short time to make a warhead, immediately visible skills of the Tsarist officer.

“Listen, Russian people, for what we are fighting.
For desecrated faith and offended shrines.
For the liberation of the Russian people from the yoke of the Communists, vagabonds and convicts, who completely ruined Holy Russia.
For the termination of internecine warfare.
That the peasant, having acquired the land he cultivated, would engage in peaceful labor.
For true freedom and law to prevail in Russia.
For the Russian people to choose their own Master. ”

All right said, and most importantly in essence!
P.N. Wrangel is a patriot and a hero of his country, who until the last fought for his homeland.

[unknown]

In 1917, Russia fell victim to the Orange Revolution. The Bolsheviks were performers.
Only the seizure of power by Stalin returned Russia for a short time to historical mainstream.
But, Khrushchev continued the work of the Bolsheviks to turn Russia into a raw material colony of the West.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

managed in a short time to make a combat unit, immediately visible skills and abilities of the Tsarist officer.

For some reason, many other tsarist officers failed. On the contrary, their result turned out to be negative (not even zero!). Wrangel is an exception to the rule?

[SERGEY SERGEEVICS]

He was a good strategist and patriot who was worried about his people, from here he succeeded.

[Doliva63]

Quote: SERGEY SERGEEVICS

He was a good strategist and patriot who was worried about his people, from here he succeeded.

Alas, he was no strategist, as the results clearly indicate. And even a patriot and even more so, about which the history of the country speaks no less clearly. Actually, because he did not succeed. Another thing, for example, Frunze - one of the authors of the victory in that war.

[Dalton]

And he was a strategist and patriot.
Unlike local talkers.
As for Frunze, he is exposed in aiding Wrangel. See Alexander Green, local oracle.

[motorized rifle]

Wrangel, by definition, "jacket", he graduated from the Mining Institute, so he had more intelligence than the regular officers. "All my life in the ranks and not a single day in battle" is not about him.

[Edward Vashchenko]

Unlike the two previous articles on the topic, there is some kind of hagiography, miracles of the holy and the immaculate. The phrase about Wrangel as Hitler’s forerunner is especially touching:

"He was one of the first Russian leaders to fully recognize the danger of communism - not only for the Russian people, but for the whole world."

[Olgovich]

Quote: Eduard Vaschenko

Unlike the two previous articles on the topic, there is some kind of hagiography, miracles of the holy and the immaculate. The phrase about Wrangel as Hitler’s forerunner is especially touching

Well, what do you mean ... Hitler?

The hero of the article generally died before his accession.

And if you want, then please quote from the times of his power:

"not only pointless but also criminal to wage such a war like a war for the annihilation of Hitlerism
.
Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR V. M. Molotov, October 31, 1939

There are no fortunetelling here ....

[Edward Vashchenko]

Т

ut no fortune-telling ....

Dear Andrew,
no need to distort: ​​this phrase was said in view of the signing of a peace treaty, during the period of obvious preparations for war and was not a reflection of the meaning of the policies of the Union Soviets, but a forced political maneuver in front of the threat of invasion.
The USSR did not send volunteers to the SS for the purpose of war on the western front, in contrast to the participation of Wrangel's associates on the side of the enemies of the Russian people.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Eduard Vaschenko

Dear Andrew,
no need to distort: ​​this phrase was said in view of the signing of a peace treaty, during the period of obvious preparations for war and was not a reflection of the meaning of the policies of the Union Soviets, but a forced political maneuver in front of the threat of invasion.

Dear Edward,

Obviously, you have not read the Molotov Report on the Foreign Policy of the USSR, from where the quote is given. There EVERYTHING contradicts what you say.

Quote: Eduard Vaschenko

The USSR did not send volunteers to the SS for the purpose of war on the western front, in contrast to the participation of Wrangel's associates on the side of the enemies of the Russian people.

Citizens of the USSR voluntary on the side of Germany were ORDERING more.

[Hunghuz]

Vashchenko, your quote is about the fact that he was one of the first.
By the way, yes. And so well done.
But the main thing is that this is an eyewitness quote.
If you do not understand

[Edward Vashchenko]

If you do not understand

I realized that the Hunhuzes and the like are fascists, their accomplices and other enemies of Russia and the Russian people are very close in spirit.

[Dalton]

I realized that the Hunhuzes and the like are fascists, their accomplices and other enemies of Russia and the Russian people are very close in spirit.

I think closer to the Nazis are those people who take on other people's degrees. It seems like a really false Vashchenko.
You respected St. Petersburg State University noted that you simply did not understand the phrase

Finally, the the third eyewitness wrote about General P.N. Wrangel that he was one of the first Russian leaders to fully understand the danger of communism - not only for the Russian people, but for the whole world.

specially highlighted for you fatty highlighted

[Edward Vashchenko]

The situation was difficult - the British resisted the offensive, continuing to mend various obstacles.

The Polish representatives at Headquarters called such a truce ... a forced concession to England.

And would the Poles win?
And can you indicate the exact scientific work, links to them, where such data is indicated?
Only without distortion and transition to the individual. Just work, huh?

[Hunghuz]

And the Poles defeated Vashchenko.
In the Soviet-Polish war.
If you didn’t know. Having won the Warsaw operation, they could rush forward.
And the British insisted on a stop signal, hobbled.
They did not need either the strengthening of the French (standing behind the Poles), or the Russian army in Crimea

[Dalton]

And can you indicate the exact scientific work, links to them, where such data is indicated?

and why no one is demanding such links from you?

[hermit]

"A combined brigade of Moscow and Petrograd cadets took part in the fight against Wrangel. In the night battle for the possession of the city of Orekhov, some of them were taken prisoner by the Drozdovites. At the place of execution, they had to dig their own grave. They sang the International and fell to its sounds. ". http://az.lib.ru/r/radek_k_b/text_1920_requiem.shtml

[Olgovich]

Quote: hermit

“A combined brigade of Moscow and Petrograd cadets took part in the fight against Wrangel.

28 .11. 1920 executions in Bagreevka began. (forest tract near Livadia).
From here, blood flowed in streams downhill, to the sea. The Chekists thought that by dropping hundreds of corpses into a swimming pool and throwing it with earth, they would destroy all traces. The past rain prevented. Pink water rose in a granite bowl and poured down to the Yalta-Uchan-Su road. To disinfect the drains, bleach carts reached Bagreevka ...

There, not only "forgiven" officers were shot, but, for example, a graduate of the Smolny Institute, a home teacher L.A. Matusevich or 80-year-old princess N.A. Baryatinskaya, confined to a wheelchair, 15 year old schoolgirls.
When they arrested Princess Natalya Trubetskoy, who worked as a sister of mercy in the infirmary, on December 12, 1920, she was interceded by members of the union of nurses of mercy of the Yalta region and asked to bail her - “we guarantee by her signature that Trubetskaya’s sister was not involved in any political organization old, not under the new government. ” All the signatories were shot - 16 people ...
Pregnant Princess Maltseva was expecting a third child. They did not spare her either.

The historian Leonid Abramenko found only one Yalta in the archives of the “execution” folders - 15. In each, death sentences for 200 to 400 people.

On the site of the mass grave (6 thousand people), a chapel was built, children from Livadia High School, now look after the forest mass grave and the path leading to Bagreevka ...

[RUSS]

Quote: Olgovich

From here, blood flowed in streams downhill, to the sea. The Chekists thought that by dropping hundreds of corpses into a swimming pool and throwing it with earth, they would destroy all traces. The past rain prevented. Pink water rose in a granite bowl and poured down to the Yalta-Uchan-Su road. To disinfect the effluents, bleach carts reached Bagreevka.

On January 24.01.1919, 75, on the initiative of the Chairman of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee Ya. M. Sverdlov, a secret directive of the Central Committee of the RCP (b) "On the extermination of the Cossacks" was adopted. All the Cossacks without exception were declared counter-revolutionaries, and "when reprisals against counter-revolutionaries, the captured are not judged, but they are massacred," said AG Beloborodov, the representative of the Defense Council on the Don at that time. So, when the Cossacks were evicted from the villages of Kalinovskaya, Ermolovskaya, Samashkinskaya, Romanovskaya, Mikhailovskaya and Asinovskaya, 35 thousand of 3 thousand old people, women and children were hacked by the highlanders. Quiet Don in the most literal sense became a bloody river: the bodies of the killed Cossacks were thrown into the river by the Bolsheviks in thousands, since it was simply physically impossible for them to bury such a quantity, and they were carried out into the open sea by the current (A. Tamantsev. Cossack genocide on the Don., G. Saratov; "Alex-inform", No. 107 (2002) -1, pp. 2-XNUMX). In 1919, so many people were killed in the Black Sea that Turkey was forced to send a note of protest to the government of the RSFSR against the "pollution" of the sea with human corpses.

[Gardamir]

human corpses.

“When attacking guards and spoilage. e. make circular arrests of the entire male population over the age of 17 years. With a delay in extradition of malefactors, shoot everyone without mercy as accomplices-concealers ... Immediately open fire from all the guns and destroy the barracks of the village as retaliation for the attack on the guard on the night of July 2 of unknown persons hiding in the barracks. ”
The commander of the Izhevsk division General V. M. Molchanov

One officer, showing R. Gul a nagging with blood-stained blood, laughed with laughter, as he shot the prisoners: "Wow, arms were straight away, screaming, scum." The young Red Army men were given 50 lashes, and then they were still shot.

One eyewitness told about the execution of a worker in the station area. Volunteers, throwing the rope through the branch of a tree, slowly pulled it towards him, and the worker slowly died, dangling in the air with his hands and feet bound. Amusing themselves, the volunteers went to catch a new victim. So far, I have not been able to find out who was the author of the mass executions order in Rostov-on-Don: Kutepov or Drozdovsky.

In Taganrog, according to the recollections of the Bolshevik G.V. Shablievsky and the cadet were torn to pieces by twelve workers who put up stubborn resistance: “They cut off ears, nose, genitals, gouged out their eyes, and buried half-dead, putting a dead dog on top.”

[Olgovich]

Quote: Gardamir

In Taganrog, by the memoirs of the Bolshevik G.V. Shablievsky, junkers.

Yes, yes, if a Bolshevik, it means that he is speaking "the truth"! Leave this chatter for the 70s of the last century.

But this is indicated in the documents state Investigation Commission:

“Persons entering the schools where the infirmaries were located, after leaving the Bolsheviks, showed that the sight of the corpses lying there was unbearably terrible. The bodies of the dead were scattered across all rooms in a mutilated form. So, one officer was lying, holding his severed leg in stiff hands, the other had both eyes gouged out, some had their heads chopped off and their faces chopped off, while others had their whole chest and face punctured with bayonet wounds. The priest and the Cossacks, who buried the grave, showed that most of the bodies were so mutilated and chopped up that they were directly separate pieces of human meat. ”

Few?

In the spring of 1918, red detachments occupied Yekaterinodar. Commissar Bronstein decided to reward fighters and commanders who miss women's affection. On his initiative, a decree was issued for the socialization of women. According to this document, monstrous in its cynicism, girls from 16 to 25 years old could be forced into sexual relations by anyone who had previously received a mandate issued by the Commissioner for Internal Affairs - all the same Bronstein.

The Red Army raided the city garden, grabbing young and beautiful girls, mainly from bourgeois families and students. 60 girls and girls were captured. The best booty went to Bronstein, commandant of the headquarters Karasev, Commander-in-Chief Ivashev, head of the Criminal Investigation Police Prokofiev. The rest were gang-raped. After that they were killed, and their bodies were thrown into the Kuban.
“A fifth-grade student from one of Yekaterinodar gymnasiums was raped for twelve days by a whole group of Red Army soldiers, then she was tied to a tree and burned with fire, and finally shot.”

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

Few?

O great Mythologist, think of something newer than the "Emigration Tales of the Council of Deputies", and read more carefully. them, otherwise you confused the most important thing, the American fake is signed not by the commissar Bronstein, but by the "commander-in-chief" Ivashev.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

O great Mythologist, think of something newer than the "Emigration Tales of the Council of Deputies", and read more carefully. them, otherwise you confused the most important thing, the American fake is signed not by the commissar Bronstein, but by the "commander-in-chief" Ivashev.

Oh, you are incompetent here too, teach state document:

Case No. 18
Special commission
to investigate the crimes of the Bolsheviks,
under the commander
armed forces in the south of Russia


Act of investigation
on the socialization of girls and women in the mountains. Yekaterinodar by the mandates of the Soviet government

In the spring of 1918, in the city of Yekaterinodar, the Bolsheviks issued a decree printed in the Izvestia of the Council and stuck on pillars, according to which girls aged 16 to 25 years were subject to "socialization", and those who wished to use this decree had to contact the relevant revolutionary institutions. The initiator of this "socialization" was the Commissioner for Home Affairs, Jew Bronstein. He also issued “mandates” for this “socialization”. The same mandates were given to him by the head of the Bolshevik equestrian detachment Kobzirev, the commander in chief Ivashev, as well as other Soviet authorities, and the mandates were stamped with the headquarters of the "revolutionary forces of the North Caucasian Soviet Republic." Mandates were issued both in the name of the Red Army and in the name of the Soviet authorities - for example, in the name of Karaseyev, the commandant of the palace in whom Bronstein lived: this model granted the right to “socialize” 10 girls.

Sample Mandate:

Mandate {51}

The bearer of this, Comrade Karaseev, is given the right to socialize in Yekaterinodar the city of 10 souls of girls from the age of 16 to 20 years whom comrade Karaseev points to.

Glavkov Ivashchev [signature]
Print Location [Print]

On the basis of such mandates, the Red Army seized more than 60 girls - young and beautiful, mainly from the bourgeoisie and students of local educational institutions. Some of them were captured during a raid organized by the Red Army men in the city garden, and four of them were raped there, in one of the houses. Others were taken, among about 25 souls, to the palace of the military chieftain to Bronstein, and the rest to the “Starokommercheskaya” hotel to Kobzyrev and to the hotel “Bristol” to the sailors, where they were raped. Some of those arrested were then released, for example, a girl was raped who was raped by the head of the Bolshevik Criminal Investigation Police Prokofiev, while others were taken away by the leaving detachments of the Red Army and their fate remained unclear. Finally, some, after various cruel tortures, were killed and thrown into the Kuban and Karasun rivers. So, for example, a 5th grade student of one of the Yekaterinodar gymnasiums was raped for twelve days by a whole group of Red Army soldiers, then the Bolsheviks tied her to a tree and burned with fire and, finally, shot him.

The names of the victims are not published for obvious reasons.


This material has been produced by the Special Commission.
in compliance with the requirements of the Charter of criminal proceedings.

http://swolkov.org/doc/kt/10.htm

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

The bearer of this, Comrade Karaseev, is given the right to socialize in Yekaterinodar the city of 10 souls of girls from the age of 16 to 20 years whom comrade Karaseev points to.

How much can you drive this blizzard? It has long been exposed. Back in 1919, you alone continue to believe in it. Although, I believe that you do not believe in it, but continue to carry out the task of denigrating the Soviet regime.

Anyone who is interested in where the legs grow from this fake of Olga, I recommend that you look at the links.

http://www.scepsis.ru/library/id_2045.html
https://shatsky.livejournal.com/14485.html

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

How many you this you can drive the blizzard? It has long been exposed. Back in 1919, you alone continue to believe in it. Although, I believe that you do not believe in it, but continue to carry out the task of denigrating the Soviet regime.

Anyone who is interested in where the legs grow from this fake of Olga, I recommend that you look at the links.

http://www.scepsis.ru/library/id_2045.html
https://shatsky.livejournal.com/14485.html

1. Speak RUSSIAN, you are not in your Ukraine and not in the camp.
2. All of these stupid "revelations" from LJ https://shatsky.livejournal.com/14485.html, of course, I read - they only confirm the reality of people and "mandates".

Commissions were known and surnames victims who are not given solely for humanitarian reasons.

In the same neighboring documents of the same Commission, which describes the genocide of Russian people, are indicated and surnames and injuries are described (gouged eyes, severed rtsui, etc.)

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

All these stupid "revelations" from LJ https://shatsky.livejournal.com/14485.html, of course, I read — they only confirm the reality of people and "mandates".

Only for a stupid person, they seem stupid, normally thinking people understand that all this is slander. As soon as you can’t stop, you continue to follow the precepts of your spiritual mentor “Pope Muller”, who said: “Slander, something will remain!”. But, the times when it was: that, the more monstrous the lie, the easier it was believed in it.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Only for a dumb person, they seem dumb thinking normally people understand that all this is slander.

Stupid people always think that they are normal geniuses - that's how they work

Quote: Alexander Green

As soon as you can’t stop, you continue to follow the precepts of your spiritual mentor “Pope Muller”, who said: “Slander, something will remain!”. But, those days have already passedwhen it was: that the more monstrous a lie, the easier it was to believe in it.

I agree 100% !: Your 70-year-old monstrous everyday lie no longer deceives anyone.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

your 70-year-old monstrous everyday lie no longer deceives anyone.

You better pay attention to your cons, listen to the people.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

You are better at Cons pay attention to your people.

I have my REAL officer stars

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

I have my REAL officer stars

Does not look like it. Officers don't act like that.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Does not look like it. Officers don't act like that.

NOT for you to judge, yes ...

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

NOT for you to judge, yes.

From what? I also have officer stars, I am a participant in the hostilities, but unlike you, I do not pour dirt on the state to which I swore.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

From what? I also have officer stars, I’m a participant in the hostilities,

And?

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

Quote: Alexander Green

From what? I also have officer stars, I’m a participant in the hostilities,

And?

Not "I", but "A".
...А you, unlike me, have violated your conscientious oath, and are waging an ideological war against the Soviet people.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Not "I", but "A".

You, for some reason, exposed as a member of something somewhere, И WHAT from that?

Quote: Alexander Green

And you, unlike me, have violated your conscientious oath, and are waging an ideological war against Soviet people.

You are frozen in time: NONE of this is already 30 years old.
Like it was NEVER for THOUSAND years.

And there were and there are MILLENNIUM Russia and the RUSSIAN people !!

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

You, for some reason, exposed

You are exposed, with your stars. I just showed that you are not the only one who has them, and emphasized that you violated the oath. Everyone remembers how you at the forum accused of betraying the royal officers who supported the Soviet regime. So what do you order to call you now?

Quote: Olgovich

You are frozen in time: NONE of this is already 30 years old.
Like it was NEVER for THOUSAND years

In vain you are trying to deny the laws of human development. Firstly, no matter how you puffed up, they do not depend on you, and secondly, at the same time you look very, very stupid.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

You are exposed, with your stars.

You were exposed with their minuses. You are told that they are indifferent to me, I have real epaulettes.
your participation is neither to the village nor to the city

Quote: Alexander Green

stressed that you violated the oath

It is not up to you to determine this: who are you? That's right, no one (for this).
And I took the oath only once

Quote: Alexander Green

Everyone remembers how you at the forum accused of betraying the royal officers who supported the Soviet regime.

They of Russia represented by VP and CSS changed. for which, in the majority, they paid

Quote: Alexander Green

In vain you are trying to deny the laws of human development. Firstly, no matter how you puffed up, they do not depend on you, and secondly, inYou look very, very stupid.

Look in the mirror, what do you see there? Ah, nothing ...

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

It is not your business to determine:

Just as it is not your business to judge the tsarist officers who fought on the side of Soviet power.

Quote: Olgovich

Look in the mirror, what do you see there? Ah, nothing ...

Sorry, but you make faces, it's usually not from a great mind.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Just as it is not your business to judge the tsarist officers who fought on the side of Soviet power.

this is just my business, I have the LAW, in contrast to your lying times.
By the way, they (the vast majority) are precisely owls powertrampled, humiliated and shot. I have nothing to do with it ....

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

unlike your lying times.

Firstly, you lied because you thought one thing and said another, because of this, you now have a split personality.
And secondly, about the number of executed, humiliated, trampled former officers. Unfortunately, not all of them remained faithful to the Soviet regime, participated in conspiracies, hoped for a change in state power. They paid for it. Those who served honestly rose to high ranks and posts. Tons of papers were also written about this, how much this chewing gum can be chewed.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

First, the you lied, because you thought one thing and said another, from this you now have a split personality.

Facts, liar, facts!

Quote: Alexander Green

And secondly, about the number of executed, humiliated, trampled former officers. Unfortunately, not all of them remained loyal to the Soviet regime, participated in conspiracieshoped for a change in state power. They paid for it. Those who served honestly rose to high ranks and posts.

They all rehabilitated yours. Sclerosis?

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

They are ALL rehabilitated - yours. Sclerosis?

We'll figure it out yet, "truth bearer"

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

We'll figure it out yet, "truth bearer"

So are they heroes or criminals?
And those who destroyed them, heroes or not?
And those who destroyed the second?
And the third who destroyed the second?
And the fourth, justifying the first?

How difficult it is for you ....

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

How difficult it is for you ....

But life is a difficult thing, it’s not a manic repetition of Goebbels’s slander.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

But life is a difficult thing, it’s not a manic repetition of Goebbels’s slander.

FROM AN ANSWER AGAIN AS A HARE

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

FROM AN ANSWER AGAIN AS A HARE

I have been answering these questions for several years now with the Russian language (see our old debate), but you still won’t understand. Are you a Turk?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Quote: Olgovich

FROM AN ANSWER AGAIN AS A HARE

I have been answering these questions for several years now with the Russian language (see our old debate), but you still won’t understand. Are you a Turk?

1. What is the difference? Are you racist?

2. I enjoy how you get out (and you can’t get out anyway: after all, they are heroes ... fascists )).

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

Who cares? Are you racist?

No, I just know from experience that the Turks do not understand Russian well.

Quote: Olgovich

I enjoy the way you get out

Enjoy, I do not mind, because I am writing not only for you.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

No, I just know from experience that the Turks do not understand Russian well.

Many, much better than you

Quote: Alexander Green

Enjoy i don't mind

And so I do: now. you again escaped from the answer.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

And so I do: now. you again escaped from the answer.

Don’t make a fool of yourself, you duplicate your questions from comment to comment, I have answered them a long time ago, but you don’t read them, but continue your dirty business.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Quote: Olgovich

And so I do: now. you again escaped from the answer.

Don’t make a fool of yourself, you replicate your questions from comment to comment, I answered them a long time ago, but you don’t read them, but continue your dirty a business.

Clean

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

Quote: Alexander Green

Quote: Olgovich

And so I do: now. you again escaped from the answer.

Don’t make a fool of yourself, you replicate your questions from comment to comment, I answered them a long time ago, but you don’t read them, but continue your dirty a business.

Clean

Let’s speak black - white we are an expert ..

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Let it speak black - white we are an expert ..

I agree with you: here you are a mastiff

[Hunghuz]

And by the year 20, the shock divisions Markovskaya, Drozdovskaya, Kornilovsky mainly consisted of former Red Army prisoners

[Moskovit]

Imagine hundreds of schoolgirls walking in the garden. Daughter, here they shoot around, go outside, walk.
Commissioner is necessarily Bronstein.
But the evidence about Wrangel's friend Pokrovsky. Fortunately, the Bulgarians stabbed him like a pig in the year 22:
Meanwhile, when occupying the mountains. Maykop in the early days of the lesson, 2 Maykop inhabitants were cut down, which figure was called by General Pokrovsky at a public dinner.
The executions to be lined up on their knees, the Cossacks, walking along the line, chopped sabers of the head and neck. Indicate many cases of executions of persons completely unrelated to the Bolshevik movement. In some cases, even the identity and application of the institution did not help. So, for example, the petition of the teacher’s council of a technical school for one worker and teacher’s institute for a student Sivokonya.
Meanwhile, the ordinary Cossacks mercilessly plundered the population of the outskirts, taking everything they could. The attached list of what was taken by the Cossacks in the gardens (see the testimony of Bozhkov) and a copy of the complaint to the chieftain of the region, the editor of the newspaper Rogachev, sufficiently indicate the nature of the "searches" carried out by the Cossacks of the division, general. Pokrovsky.
The most terrible thing is that the searches were accompanied by general violence by women and girls. Not even the old women were spared. Violence was accompanied by bullying and beatings. Randomly, the interviewed residents living at the end of Gogolevskaya Street, about two blocks along the street, reported the rape of 17 people, including girls, one old woman and one pregnant (testimony of Jezerskaya).
Violence was usually carried out "collectively" by several people. Two hold the legs, and the rest use. A survey of people living on Polevaya Street confirms the massive nature of the violence. The number of victims is counted in the hundreds.
It is interesting to note that the Cossacks, committing robberies and violence, were convinced of their righteousness and impunity and said that "everything is allowed for them."

[Olgovich]

Quote: Moskovit

But the evidence about Wrangel's friend Pokrovsky. Fortunately, the Bulgarians stabbed him like a pig in the year 22:
Meanwhile, when occupying the mountains. Maykop in the early days of the lesson, 2 Maykop inhabitants were cut down, which figure was called by General Pokrovsky at a public dinner.

Again with you anonymous chatter "one grandma said".
Here is a DOCUMENT State Investigation Commission about the genocide of Russian people in Stavropol:

Intelligence
about the mass killings committed by the Bolsheviks (communists) in June-July 1918 in the city of Stavropol (Caucasus)

Bloody terror began on the night of June 19 to 20; from this date on, all subsequent days and nights, the commissariat was filled with arrested and escorted Red Army soldiers. Of those arrested, many were no longer destined to return to freedom, since these unfortunate, in the cynical expression of the executioners-Bolsheviks, "went to waste", that [o] e [art] were killed in the most inhuman way. A.A. was the first to be killed on the night of June 19-20. Chernyshev, a teacher, a vowel of the City Duma, a revolutionary socialist {39}, arrested on June 16 at a party for speaking disapprovingly of the Bolsheviks. On June 20, his corpse was discovered and identified in the Mamaisky Forest, near the city, and on the corpse there were traces of numerous drafts and bayonet strikes, delivered mainly to the chest, to the head, in particular, to the temple and face; a bullet wound in the back between the shoulder blades, the index finger was chopped off, the head was crushed, the eye was broken, the wrist was dislocated. On June 20, retired General I.A. was arrested and killed the next day. Machkanin, 80 years old, participant in the Crimean campaign {40}, the conquest of the Caucasus and the Turkish War {41}, which by its age could not pose any danger to the Bolsheviks; nevertheless, he was killed with extreme cruelty: his corpse was found in the so-called "Cold Spring", in a ravine, under several other corpses. The whole bloodied, corpse of an elderly general was in one underwear and socks covered in blood; there were up to 24 stab wounds in the chest and back, the head was almost separated from the neck by a blow of a checker from behind. The corpses from under which the general’s body was removed turned out to be the corpses of the homeowner of the city of Stavropol V.G. Zhukov, his son, Ivan Bedrik and officer Mirzoev. Zhukov and Bedrik were killed by the Red Army settlers in their house, who took them out to the street, immediately chopped them up and, after returning to their apartment, drank there and danced, forcing the Englishman Beyer, who was living in Zhukov’s apartment, to play the piano and dance, and pre-robbed him.

Following this, the senior adviser to the Stavropol provincial government Barabash was killed; son of General Machkanin staff captain N.I. Machkanin - for daring to bury the corpse of his father; retired Major General S.A. Akulov, Colonel Nikolsky, 72 years old, officers Gaziev, Yakovlev and many others. People were killed everywhere: near their houses, near the station, in the barracks, the corpses were on the streets, in ditches, in the forest under the city, etc .; among the slaughtered were officers, private individuals, the elderly, teenage gymnasium students; all the corpses found were in the same underwear, clothes and shoes were selected by the Red Army; on all corpses numerous wounds were found with both firearms and cold weapons, mainly on the head, face, eyes, traces of beatings, dislocations and even strangulation, many heads were fragmented, faces were chopped, all this indicates the incredible cruelty of the killers who inflicted on their victims , before ending them, perhaps more torment.

All of the above is based on data,
obtained by the Special Commission in a judicial investigative procedure.

[Moskovit]

Olgovich, it’s impossible to talk seriously with you. You are like a little child who stomps his foot and says, all this is not true. I will also say, your commissions are propaganda, there was nothing like that.
Here is evidence of Pokrovsky fascist henchman Shkuro. Do you believe him?
Chapter 17, Notes of the White Partisan:
"General Pokrovsky who arrived soon ordered to hang all the prisoners and even defectors. I had a confrontation with him about this, but he only joked and laughed in response to my complaints. Once, when we were having breakfast, he suddenly opened the door to the courtyard, where several hanged men were already dangling on ropes.

“This is to improve appetite,” he said.

Pokrovsky did not skimp on witticisms like: "nature loves man", "the sight of a hanged man revives the landscape", etc. This inhumanity of his, especially applied without trial, was disgusting to me. His favorite, scoundrel and scoundrel, Esaul Razderishin, tried to please the bloodthirsty instincts of his boss in the role of an executioner and corrupted the Cossacks, who, in the end, were accustomed not to put a penny on human life. This by no means passed without a trace and was subsequently one of the reasons for the failure of the White movement. "
Pokrovsky also said to Shkuro that he was a liberal and hung a little. And you do not believe that this man could have organized a massacre in Maykop and Novorossiysk? What his Cossacks, accustomed to lawlessness, could not rob, kill and rape?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Moskovit

Olgovich, with you impossible seriously speak. You are like a little child who stomps his foot and says, all this is not true.

Quote: Moskovit

But the evidence about the Wrangel friend

You yourself then-do you hear? Here is your ANONYMOUS:

And here is the evidence about Wrangel's friend: "blah blah blah

called .... "seriously"?

Quote: Moskovit

I will also say, your commissions are propaganda, there was nothing like that.

So this is understandable, State commissions do not fit into your parallel reality, where there was neither red terror, nor the worst famine in the world in peaceful 33 g, 47 g, nor a million exiled children, nor the Russian cross. Only the real world behind the window says something else.

Quote: Moskovit

Here is evidence of Pokrovsky fascist henchman Shkuro. Do you believe him?

I believe in part, because bias towards a competitor is visible to the naked eye.

Quote: Moskovit

Pokrovsky also said to Shkuro that he was a liberal and hung a little. And you do not believe that this man could have organized a massacre in Maykop and Novorossiysk? What his Cossacks, accustomed to lawlessness, could not rob, kill and rape?

Present 2 hacked Maykopers, by last name and confirmation.
How in the present Document:

On June 20, a retired general was arrested and killed the next day. I.A. Machkanin, 80 years old, a participant in the Crimean campaign {40}, the conquest of the Caucasus and the Turkish War {41}, which by its age could not pose any danger to the Bolsheviks; nevertheless, he was killed with extreme cruelty: his corpse was found in the so-called “Cold Spring”, in a ravine, under several other corpses. The whole bloodied, corpse of an elderly general was in one underwear and socks covered in blood; there were up to 24 stab wounds in the chest and back, the head was almost separated from the neck by a blow of a checker from behind. The corpses from under which the general’s body was removed turned out to be the corpses of the homeowner of the city of Stavropol V.G. Zhukov, his son, Ivan Bedrik and officer Mirzoev.

Following this, the senior adviser to the Stavropol Provincial Government was killed. Drum; son of General Machkanin staff captain N.I. Machkanin; retired Major General S.A. Akulov, Colonel Nikolsky, 72 years old, officers Gaziev, Yakovlev

This is how it should be described in the documents.

[Moskovit]

I gave you testimonies about Kolchak’s atrocities in Omsk, you laughed at them. True, it’s incomprehensible to your state and which state the commissions are biased by white.
Even Skin does not penetrate you. But you bring some kind of tale about Commissioner Bronstein and hundreds of raped gymnasium students.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Moskovit

I gave you testimonies about Kolchak’s atrocities in Omsk, you laughed at them

and how do you order to accept "witness" a la "my mother told me" :?

Quote: Moskovit

Your state which stateTrue, it is not clear, the commissions are biased by white.

Russian.

Quote: Moskovit

Even Skin does not penetrate you. But you bring some kind of tale about Commissioner Bronstein and hundreds of raped gymnasium students.

I read Skuro: his testimonies about hundreds of severed heads of Russian peasant immigrants in the Caucasus by your allies, the Red Highlanders, very much penetrated.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

Here is the DOCUMENT of the State Investigation Commission on the genocide of Russian people in Stavropol:

And here is the mass grave of the victims of white terror at the site of the former Rodina cinema in Stavropol

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

And here is the mass grave of the victims of white terror at the site of the former Rodina cinema in Stavropol

On the contrary, the cinema "Rodina" built in place former br. graves of victims of white terror (since 1953). today there fountain and place of entertainment


Could not build graves on the spot?

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

Could not build graves on the spot?

And they were reburied, a large memorial was made.
http://stavropol3d.ru/stavropol-3d-virtual-tour/pamyatniki-skulptury-3d-panoramy/memorial-holodnyj-rodnik-stavropol

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

http://stavropol3d.ru/stavropol-3d-virtual-tour/pamyatniki-skulptury-3d-panoramy/memorial-holodnyj-rodnik-stavropol

Yeah, they "reburied" in 1974, (a memorial was created), but they demolished ... in 1954 g (movie theater)

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

Yeah, they "reburied" in 1974, (a memorial was created), and they demolished ... in 1954 (building of a cinema)

Well, what kind of person are you, every bast in a row ....
The reburial was done in 1939, and a comprehensive memorial, there was reburied those who died during the Great Patriotic War, was made in the 70s. Do not be mean by little things, everyone knows you already.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Well, what kind of person are you, every bast in a row ....

take a look in the mirror: in ALL "discussions" the last word is yours: I quit when it's just rubbish

Quote: Alexander Green

The reburial was done in 1939, and the complex memorial, there was reburied those who died during the Great Patriotic War, was made in the 70s.

It’s good that you recognized your this Nonsense:

Quote: Alexander Green

here is the mass grave of the victims of white terror in place of the former Rodina cinema in Stavropol

And to arrange dance venues, cinemas, parks on the site of mass graves and cemeteries is a common thing for you: Brotherly, Tsarkoselsky Kadb, etc., etc. - To remind you.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

take a look in the mirror: in ALL "discussions" the last word is yours: I quit when it's just rubbish

Nonsense constantly pours out of you, but you have to answer so that it does not poison your readers.

Well, how, for example, not to answer this stupid attack of yours?

Quote: Olgovich

And to arrange dance venues, cinemas, parks on the site of mass graves and cemeteries is a common thing for you

Urbanization, cities are growing, many cemeteries are in the center of cities, there isn’t enough living space, and everywhere they carry old cemeteries outside the city.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Well, how, for example, not to answer this stupid attack of yours?
Quote: Olgovich
And to arrange dance venues, cinemas, parks on the site of mass graves and cemeteries is a common thing for you

Urbanization, cities are growing, many cemeteries are in the center of cities, there isn’t enough living space, and everywhere they carry old cemeteries outside the city.

You, as always, are not Copenhagen, yes: cemeteries were not transferred to you, as a rule, but worn down bulldozers: monuments for household needs, and built directly on the bones from above, dug trenches, roads, did dance floors, broke gardens

Examples in Moscow, Tsarskoye Selo, a million countries.

For example, the ashes of the great Russian architect A. Bernadazzi and other great people - they still hope to find: a cinema "40 years of VLCM", restaurants and dances were built right on their bones and after his demolition (what is happening) they become available: his grave in the middle of the hall.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

You, as always, are not Copenhagen, yes: cemeteries were not transferred to you, as a rule, but were demolished by bulldozers

I already wrote that cities are constantly growing, they are expanding, cemeteries that used to be outside the city are in the center of the city.

What should business executives do when in the city center there is a cemetery where no one has been buried for a long time, no one visits him, does not look after the graves when the trees and shrubs have grown so that it is impossible to go to any grave?

Therefore, when the cemetery is full, it is closed for burial for 25 years. After this period, the cemetery is demolished, the territory is usually leveled and turned into a park, square, memory alleys, trying to ensure that this zone does not seem to change its "profile". since there are sanitary standards established under Catherine the Great, which do not allow having cemeteries near public buildings.

The architect Bernardazzi can see relatives, no one was found, otherwise they could have reburied him.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

I already wrotethat cities are constantly growing, they are expanding, cemeteries that used to be outside the city find themselves in the center of the city.

And who are you?

Quote: Alexander Green

What to do business executives, when in the center of the city a cemetery where no one has been buried for a long time, nobody visits him, doesn’t care for the graves, when the trees and shrubs have grown so that it’s not possible to go to any grave?

Shoot yourself. Once SUCH questions have arisen in the minds.

Quote: Alexander Green

Therefore, when the cemetery overflows, it is closed for burial for 25 years. After this period, the cemetery is demolished, the territory is usually leveled и turn her into a park stated, "

there are no words ... How distorted is man ...

Quote: Alexander Green

The architect Bernardazzi can see relatives, no one was found, otherwise they could have reburied him.

This is the VALUE of the country, if it did not reach: ALL of its buildings are recognized as monuments.

but as for the bulldozer in the place of a ziggurat in the center of Moscow, here you clearly noticed: there certainly is no place for this. And since there are no relatives, then ...

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

Shoot yourself.

Tips crazy, I did not expect another.
More about the architect. He was buried at the beginning of the century in Chisinau, the cemetery was demolished 50 years later. and I think that after the war, few people from Chisinau knew who Bernardazzi was.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Tips crazy,.

Yeah, level outb cemeteries for ...... WALK, it sounds like that

Quote: Alexander Green

He was buried at the beginning of the century in Chisinau, the cemetery was demolished 50 years later. and I thinkthat after the war, few people in Chisinau knew who Bernardazzi was.

This is clearly not yours: A. Bernardazzi, the great recognized Russian architect of Novorossia, whose buildings were recognized by MONUMENTS in Soviet times.
Chop up a bundle on the nose.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

A. Bernardazzi, the great recognized Russian architect of New Russia,

Bernardazzi is buried in Chisinau. Moldova became Soviet only in 1940, but then the occupation, finally established Soviet power only in the second half of the 40s. Demolished the cemetery in the early 50s. Those who demolished did not even hear who Bernardazzi was. It is not their fault what to do if a normal education in Moldova appeared only during the Soviet era.
Well, your comment above is the level of kindergarten.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Bernardazzi is buried in Chisinau. Moldova became Soviet only in 1940, but then the occupation, finally established Soviet power only in the second half of the 40s. Demolished the cemetery in the early 50s. Those who demolished did not even hear who Bernardazzi was. It's not their fault what to do

Yes, those party partners who demolished were phenomenally illiterate, but they understood well that they arranged matinees on bones.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

Yes, those affiliates who demolished were phenomenally illiterate

It was not demolished by party members, but the city council with the executive committee, which included representatives of the Moldavian intelligentsia, brought up even before the Soviet regime. Why didn’t they rebury your architect? They should have known him, because its buildings are in Kineshev.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Demolished not affiliates, and the city council with the executive committee, which included representatives of the Moldavian intelligentsia, brought up even before the Soviet regime.

Are you ... pretending to be ?!

Quote: Alexander Green

Why didn’t they rebury your architect? They should have known him, because its buildings are in Kineshev.

There are HUNDREDS of graves on which children danced around the Christmas tree.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

Quote: Alexander Green
It was not demolished by party members, but the city council with the executive committee, which included representatives of the Moldavian intelligentsia, brought up even before the Soviet regime.

Are you ... pretending to be ?!

Oh no no no! It turns out that you do not even imagine the decision-making mechanism for the reconstruction of the city. Everything is done according to the city development plan, which is being prepared by the department of the city’s chief architect. I don’t think that the chief architect at that time was a party apparatchik, or a newly-made architect, it would be unlikely that he could have prepared him for 6 years of Soviet power in Moldova. Everything was done by old architects who grew up even under Romanians. And it is their fault that their colleague was not reburied. Council members might not have known about him.

PS Enough to insert each bite into a line already, you already do not know how to discredit everything. Calm down.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Oh no no no! It turns out that you do not even imagine the decision-making mechanism for the reconstruction of the city. Everything is done according to the city development plan, which is being prepared by the department of the city’s chief architect. I don’t think that the chief architect at that time was a party apparatchik, or a newly-made architect, it would be unlikely that he could have prepared him for 6 years of Soviet power in Moldova. Everything was done by old architects who grew up even under Romanians. And this their faultthat did not rebury their colleague. Council members might not have known about him.

Ha-ha-ha!
You are ridiculous in your ignorance and ignorance.

What room architects ?! They all RAN, the city was almost EMPTY in 1944 ..

Demolished (leveled graves) and the Jewish cemetery and Trinity, and Ryshkansky, and Military, etc.
There are now RESIDENTIAL houses, dance floors, vegetable gardens, roads.

And all without the knowledge ... of the party

Quote: Alexander Green

PS Enough to insert each bast into a line already, you don't know alreadyhow to discredit everything. Calm down.

I know how.
facts, yes, do not discredit.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Olgovich

I know how.

Don't go crazy with your "knowledge"

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander Green

Don't go crazyа

Bravo!!
You have "weighty" arguments.

[motorized rifle]

[quote]]
History

In May - August 1918, 23 soldiers of the American, English and French troops occupied the Russian North. American expeditionary units landed in Murmansk, in Pechenga, and then in Arkhangelsk and the Far East.

Numerous documents stored in archives and museums, thousands of witnesses characterize the American and English occupiers as executioners, robbers and robbers, no worse than the Nazis. The Americans themselves did not hide this.

So, in the book “Foreign Invaders in Soviet Russia”, published in 1935, it describes the methods used by the liberators - cut families, pregnant women who had their breasts cut, babies removed from their stomachs, five-year-old children hanged ...

Having captured the peasants I. Gonevchuk, S. Gorshkov, P. Oparin and Z. Murashko, the Americans buried them alive for their connection with the local partisans. And the partisan’s wife E. Boychuk was dealt with as follows: they pierced the body with bayonets and drowned in a garbage pit. The peasant Bochkarev was unrecognizably mutilated with bayonets and knives: "the nose, lips, ears were cut off, the jaw was broken, the face and eyes were punctured with bayonets, the whole body was cut."

Another testimony taken from the press: “At the beginning of July, driving along Svetlanskaya Street in a cab, four drunken American soldiers, boldly, insulted passers-by. Passing by the public (ie the deputy. - Comm. Ed.) City Council Wojciechowski, Sanarsky and other persons, outraged by their behavior, stopped the cab driver. Drunken soldiers approached Wojciechowski and shouted at him in Russian: “Why are you whistling, Russian pig? Do you not know that today is an American holiday? ” One of the soldiers instructed Voitsekhovsky a revolver, and the other began to strike him in the face with a revolver.

No less frank in his memoirs is US Army Colonel Morrow, lamenting that his poor soldiers ... “could not sleep without killing anyone that day”

The seriously ill icebreaker commander, Svyatogor, N. A. Dreyer, was first crucified by the interventionists on a pillar and then shot.

“I saw,” recalls witness Nikolai Ivanovich Tyurikov, “how the Americans in the Vodlozero region froze the chairman of the volost executive committee. Having tied their victim, the executioners held her by the ropes, at the same time they watered cold water. The person in front of those present was covered with an ice crust, and then turned into an ice block. ”

“We remember that we made these monsters in Onega,” recalls witness A. Leontyev. - people stripped naked, tied to rifles and drove through the ranks. After that, they began beating fingers off the arrested, breaking out the ribs. Many killed the lower legs, pierced the skull. ”

In a concentration camp on Kegostrov prisoners were kept in pits fenced with barbed wire. On the island of Mudyug, called the island of death, as well as in the barracks of the Yokang peninsula, thousands of Soviet people rotted in shackles and handcuffs, froze in punishment cells, and were eaten alive by rats. This hard labor prison was created at the behest of US Ambassador David Francis.

The very delivery of prisoners to the island of Mudyug was an unprecedented torment. This is what the doctor G. Marshavin says about the "journey" to the "death camp."

“On October 2, 1918, at four o’clock in the morning, 119 prisoners were driven out into the courtyard and, under the protection of more than 300 English and Americans, they were driven onto a barge, which stood at the seaside marina. The barge was flooded with water, covered with a thin layer of ice. Our group of prisoners began to drop into this semi-submerged barge with blows of butts and clubs ... The barge could not approach the island itself. She stopped at a shallow, about three kilometers from the island. Under a hail of blows to the chest in cold sea water, the remains of our group reached the earth - the island of death. We were led into a cold hut and forced to strip naked. And only after 12 hours we were allowed to dress in a wet, icy dress. Many were dead by morning. ”

On October 24, 1919, in the village of Gostilitsy, the crew of the damaged M-20 aircraft — pilot Karl Tehtel and flight mechanic Alexander Bakhvalov — fell into the hands of the British. They were beaten with rods, sticks, ramrods, rubber clubs. At the end, the executioners gouged out the eyes of the aviators and cut off their ears.

The "civilized" savages were sophisticated in the most sophisticated forms of torture. They cut off the ears and nose of the living Red Army Spirov. They stripped off the skin of a soldier with a glove with his nails ...

American-English invaders combined brutal tortures, tortures, and murders with robberies and robbery.

“It was impossible to go out,” recalls witness Grigory Zolotilov, “they killed not only those suspected of sympathy for the Bolsheviks, but also those who did not want to take off their coat or open their chest and wardrobe at their request ...”.

During the occupation of Arkhangelsk, 52 thousand people went through prisons and concentration camps - 17% of the province’s population. Over 4000 people were brutally killed and tortured by the decision of the military field courts, and many thousands were drowned, hanged and executed without trial. [/ quote

Source: Bukhanov, M. S. "Civilized" robbers: about the atrocities and robberies of the American-British invaders in the Soviet North and North-West, [1918-1920])

But, s..ka! the White Guards complain: "The British did not help us, they interfered with the Reds to fight!"
It looks like it is, the White Idea allies have betrayed. Truly, there is no mind, consider a cripple.

[Olgovich]

Quote: motorized infantryman

So, in the book "Foreign Invaders in Soviet Russia", published in 1935the year

famous, "truthful" 35, the famous speech at the meeting of combine operators on population growth by 3 million people annually.
True, the census of 37 g showed ... multi-million decline

Quote: motorized infantryman

No less frank in his memoirs is US Army Colonel Morrow, lamenting that his poor soldiers ... “could not sleep without killing anyone that day”

You should say nothing to yourself: he NEVER said such a thing about his soldiers ...

[Dalton]

The guys simply did not see the materials of the commission of inquiry to investigate the crimes of the Bolsheviks in the 18-19 years.
AND SYSTEMS of Soviet atrocities aimed at the destruction of entire estates are opposed by individual atrocities of whites, which were not the result of a deliberate state policy (like Soviet Russia), but excesses typical of wartime

[ALEXEY VLADIMIROVICH]

Quote: motorized infantryman

above 4000 people were brutally killed and tortured by the decision of the military field courts

Horror! And what about the treatment of people who liberated the North, Soviet power, probably closed all the prisons?
In July 1920, according to the department of forced labor of the Arkhangelsk Provincial Revolutionary Committee, it was in charge of: Arkhangelsk forced labor camp No. 1created April 30, 1920; Arkhangelsk forced labor camp No. 2 at art. Isakogorka, allocated on June 4 from camp No. 1 in order to use the labor of prisoners on the railway; camp on Solovki, established May 25, 1920; camp in Kholmogory, organized on June 7, 1920. In addition, until June 12 in the Arkhangelsk province existed Shenkur forced labor camp.In 1921, these camps became known as the Northern Special Purpose Camps (SLON). Soviet concentration camps in the Arkhangelsk province were used to exterminate prisoners of war Cossacks and officers who were there destroyed more than 20 thousand people. In early 1923, the famous Solovetsky Special Purpose Camp was created on the basis of the Arkhangelsk camps.

[XII legion]

hermit

"A combined brigade of Moscow and Petrograd cadets took part in the fight against Wrangel. In the night battle for the possession of the city of Orekhov, some of them were taken prisoner by the Drozdovites. At the place of execution, they had to dig their own grave. They sang the International and fell to its sounds. ". http://az.lib.ru/r/radek_k_b/text_1920_requiem.shtml

Have you torn up your stingy tear?
Now listen to another source

An interesting mention in the regimental history of the Markovites about the replenishment of the reserve battalion with captured red cadets, included in its composition even despite their pro-Soviet views and direct refusal to fight on the side of the Russian army: “When the captured cadets were taken to the regiment headquarters, we got into conversation with them. [...] The young cadet's answers were very detailed. He divided the population into three groups: the most insignificant in number - the communists, who are fighting until the "complete victory of communism"; more significant - the inhabitants who do not want to fight, but are at war because they are forced; and the group is the largest, thinking about the speedy end of the fratricidal struggle, but since they see the inevitability of the final victory of the Reds, they support them "conscientiously". He himself ranked himself in this group and responded with a firm refusal to the offer to join the army. [...] The cadets were sent to the reserve battalion of the regiment (events date back to July 1920.

[Aviator_]

I will not comment on the main meaning of the article (and everything has already been said without me), but it is worth noting that the author, citing a photo of the Wrangel Order, exposes the perestroika myth that whites did not award orders to anyone during the Civil War. This thesis was often cited in the late 80s to idealize whites. However, what happened was.

[Hunghuz]

As far as I heard, the thesis "did not award" was related to pre-revolutionary orders.
And their rewards were created by both red and white, everything is clear here. By the way, even the options for St. George's awards were again analog. But not actually the old order of St. George. It is intended for the whole state and for an external adversary

[Aviator_]

Well, by definition, the reds could not award the old orders, and the whites simply did not have such an opportunity. So they invented new orders, which is quite logical, both for those and for others. And in the "Ogonyok" of the times of editor-in-chief Korotich, it was directly stated that whites generally did not reward anyone in an internal war - that is how they are "ideological", in contrast to the Reds.

[Hunghuz]

Theoretically, the regime, recognizing itself as the successor of the all-Russian government, could try to reward with old awards.
And they are all ideological, only in their own way

[Oleg (Kharkov)]

“Listen, Russian people, for what we are fighting.
For desecrated faith and offended shrines.
For the liberation of the Russian people from the yoke of the Communists, vagabonds and convicts, who completely ruined Holy Russia.
For the termination of internecine warfare.
That the peasant, having acquired the land he cultivated, would engage in peaceful labor.
For true freedom and law to prevail in Russia.
For the Russian people to choose their own Master. ”

from the yoke of the Communists, vagrants and convicts to replace the yoke of aristocrats, oligarchs, the monarchy, plus this struggle to transfer to 1905. Maybe they would support. For 1920, this is not particularly relevant, plus similar speeches, starting in 1915, with the beginning of the trench war on the eastern front, were shouted to everyone who was not lazy.

[Fevralsk. Morev]

I am tormented by vague doubts that if the White movement won in Russia, a nonsense society, maternity leave, compulsory secondary education and free higher education and medicine would appear. In general, all the horrors that the communists created after their victory. Now White revenge. The tsar chosen (as a result of the violation of the Constitution (the comma was not there), a new aristocracy, instilling a sense of rank to the people (Serdyukov’s case, etc.) and imposing the Russian Orthodox Church. (Read the philosopher Ilyin) So they erect monuments to their idols - Wrangel, Mannerheim, Denikin, Krasnov, Stolypin, Ilyin. And tears of tenderness, about how white were white and fluffy.

[motorized rifle]

“What happened is what will be, and what is happening is happening, and there is nothing new under the Sun.”

[Hunghuz]

You should not be tormented by vague doubts)
The February Revolution introduced a non-verbal society.
And progress does not stand still. Agree, to consider that in the absence of the Bolsheviks, progress would have frozen in place as it was kind of silly. Rather, the opposite. This is as if in the first place.
And most importantly. To draw parallels between Stolypin and Wrangel and modern oligarchs and bandits is at least incorrect.
The current regime directly goes back to the Soviet one. Raised, nurtured, etc. exactly then. Criminals, workshops, athletes, mafiosi, etc. appeared in the 70-80 years.
Watch the movie: Rat Kingdom: Putinism as It Is.
Everything is very clear and informative.
So it’s not worth blaming Stolypin and Wrangel for current affairs. These are the descendants of the Brezhnevs, Gorbachev and Yeltsins)

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Hunghouse

So it’s not worth blaming Stolypin and Wrangel for current affairs. These are descendants Brezhnev, Gorbachev and Yeltsin

I wonder how it could be?

[Dalton]

Descendants of the elites of the Brezhnev, Gorbachev and Yeltsin elites.
And they themselves, many, members of these elites.
That's who is now smashing Russia, and not the descendants of the Wrangels and Stolypin.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Dalton

and not the descendants of Wrangels and Stolypin.

I’m not talking about this. From the author’s text you can understand that Stolypin and Wrangel are descendants of the Brezhnev, Gorbachev and Yeltsin.

[Dalton]

Yes, all of you perfectly understood from Hunhuza.
Pretending to be a habit.
The bottom line is that the current government, plundering Russia, is the direct descendants of the Brezhnev, Gorbachev and Yeltsin elites. Yes, and the elites of those times.
Flesh from the flesh of red bone)
And all this has nothing to do with the Stolypin and Wrangel descendants.
Did you get it this time or do it again? Advanced you are our dialectic and ardent Marxist))

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Dalton

The bottom line is that the current government, plundering Russia, is the direct descendants of the Brezhnev, Gorbachev and Yeltsin elites

Alas, I will disappoint you. These are the descendants of those who were not cleaned up in Stalin's time.

[Dalton]

That you should be disappointed not me)
The bottom line is that the descendants of the red locust and finish off Russia. And whether another question is finished or not. They will not clean themselves themselves)
And Stalin is a link in that system, do not make a sage-Saruman from a person)

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Dalton

do not make a sage-Saruman from a person)

Well, if you are fond of "Saruman", then, of course, I will not compete with "knowledge".

[Dalton]

Are you addicted)
Judging by the tales of the brilliant priest, Comrade Stalin and his order of light)

[icant007]

Quote: RUSS

So, when the Cossacks were evicted from the villages of Kalinovskaya, Ermolovskaya, Samashkinskaya, Romanovskaya, Mikhailovskaya and Asinovskaya, 75 thousand of 35 thousand old people, women and children were hacked by the highlanders. Quiet Don in the most literal sense became a bloody river: the bodies of the killed Cossacks were thrown into the river by the Bolsheviks in thousands, since it was simply physically impossible for them to bury such a quantity, and they were carried out into the open sea by the current (A. Tamantsev. Cossack genocide on the Don., G. Saratov; "Alex-inform", No. 3 (107) -2002, pp. 1-2).

The source of information is somehow unconvincing.
And the bodies of the killed Cossacks of the Terek army (namely, this region belong to the specified villages) could not get into the "Quiet" Don.

[Alexander Greene]

On the heroes and traitors in the civil war
In a class society where there are antagonistic classes, the unity of the people does not exist. Therefore, in a civil war there are no traitors.

There are two truths: the truth of the oppressed and the truth of the oppressors, and here the people differentiate with respect to these two truths. The answer to whose truth is “truer" is given by History, which moves forward in a spiral, sometimes with digressions, but still forward - to communism ...

The Bolsheviks, seeing the flagrant inequality and oppression of the working people, raised it to a socialist revolution against their oppressors, the proletarians and the poorest peasantry stood up for this truth. They fought on the side of the Reds. They have their own heroes.

The bourgeoisie, the nobility, who had lost power, unleashed a counter-revolution against this truth, which was supported by everyone who lost something as a result of the revolution — property (palaces, factories and estates), privileges, and ranks. They fought on the side of the whites. They also had their own heroes.

Representatives of different classes served in both armies of white and red. Often give an example, General Denikin, who, it seems, from the serfs, but fought against the Reds. But this is not unusual.
For example, in the Red Army there were former tsarist officers, nobles who, having risen above the prejudices of their class, accepted the truth of the oppressed people, in the White Army were former peasants and workers who, having lost their large allotments, or rose to some heights that also lost.

This also explains the choice of Denikin, who had something to lose, namely those heights that he achieved with his service under the tsarist regime. Denikin, unlike the hundreds of generals who served in the Red Army, could not accept that he was equated in rights with ordinary workers.

But who is to blame for starting a civil war is another matter. To answer it, it is important to understand who it was beneficial to.

Was the civil war profitable for the Bolsheviks, workers and peasants? Of course not, the Bolsheviks took power and began to build socialism, and they needed peace. All the exes who did not want socialism, who wanted to continue the exploitation of the common people, were to blame for starting a civil war.
Therefore, the war on the part of the Bolsheviks and their supporters was fair, because they wanted the workers to be freed from oppression of exploitation.

The war on the part of the whites, in the opinion of each individual, was also fair, because they wanted to return what was taken from them - property, privileges. But in the compartment of these separate "justice" the general justice did not work, because they opposed the desire of the majority of the people, the course of History. Therefore, whites were defeated in the civil war.

[Hunghuz]

Sadness to see everything through the prism of the class struggle Green)
A nobility that did not have power ...
At the same time, raznochintsy officers from the bourgeoisie, peasants and workers (the personnel layer was preserved slightly).
Lenin is a nobleman, Tukhachevsky again.
Or
Ivanov is the son of the cantonists or Kornilov the son of a Cossack.
Class does not work here. The main thing is a vision of the future of Russia.
That's what shared

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Hunghouse

Sadness to see everything through the prism of the class struggle Green) ....
Class does not work here. The main thing is a vision of the future of Russia.
That's what shared

Why sadness? This is a scientific method.

Firstly, the class struggle has not gone away, so this approach adequately reflects the past, present and foreseeable future of our society. But you will not argue that in Russia a classless society? Do you really have as much property as millers, Abramovichs and the like?

Secondly, during the Civil War, the vision of the future of Russia was just class. Only some saw the power of the working people with the help of Soviet power, while others saw the power of the bourgeoisie with the help of the Constituent Assembly, while still others dreamed of the restoration of the monarchy.

[Hunghuz]

For a long time this is no longer a scientific approach.
Yes, and was pseudoscientific and only in our long-suffering country.
And don't lie, Green. The class approach was for the Reds, while for the Whites it was universal. For the Reds fought with the classes, and the White - with the Bolsheviks, no matter what classes they belonged to.
The noblemen in the upper echelons of the Reds had more than the whites. If anything.
And the vast majority of white Sid monarchist slogans did not have.
About the bourgeoisie. The Soviets themselves under the NEP restored, albeit partially, bourgeois principles (and did not feel any remorse about this). The most advanced countries in the world are now living under a "bourgeois system" based on your scientific method. And they are quite happy) Unlike Russia.
And in general it is not clear what is better - the power of the party democracy under the DICTATURE of the smallest class or bourgeois democracy with popular representation)

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Hunghouse

For a long time this is no longer a scientific approach.
Yes, and was pseudoscientific and only in our long-suffering country.
And don't lie, Green.

It feels like you're a victim of current education and the exam. Before arguing on this topic, you should at least read a textbook on dialectical and historical materialism. In the meantime, there’s no point even commenting on your babble.
.

[Dalton]

You have an overripe brain Green)
This dialectical materialism turned out to be a lie. So they didn’t build anything.
Partocrats did not lead to communism, but to cave capitalism. More precisely, they built communism for themselves)
So this bullshit has historically shown its complete failure

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Dalton

You have an overripe brain Green)
This dialectical materialism turned out to be a lie.

Class !!! It turns out that with the help of a diamate, victims of the exam can be identified!

[Dalton]

Of course you can!
That’s how I understood that the victim of the USE is you green.
No wonder you always remember about him

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Dalton

Of course you can!
That’s how I understood that the victim of the USE is you green.
No wonder you always remember about him

The compilers of the exam questions hide from everyone that there is such a method - diamat, and therefore you deny its existence. So think which of us is a victim of the exam.

[Dalton]

I do not deny the presence of mathematical methods
I affirm that you are a layman in the History of Green. Find out the rest on the USE line

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Dalton

I do not deny the presence of mathematical methods

Ltd! This speaks of your well "o-o-chen" of high education.

[Dalton]

so where am I to you)

[Moskovit]

I agree with you. But current proponents of the white movement cannot understand this. According to them, Latvians, Jews and traitors fought on the side of the Reds.

[Hunghuz]

Probably a lack of education, if so.
As the supporters of the red movement, who see in white whites noblemen, dreaming of mythical estates, priests and fanged factory owners, cannot understand

[Moskovit]

By the way, one of those who really owned estates, Prince Felix Yusupov quietly left for Paris ..
In this regard, I like the position of the Finns. The whites won there, but the current authorities acknowledge that there was white terror. They talk about a concentration camp in Sveaborg .. About a thousand tortured Red Guards.

[Hunghuz]

I’ll tell you so. The position in Finland is the only question on which the Russian white and red converged.
In 18-19, Finnish nationalists staged a massacre of Russians. And the Red Guards and officers, and just plain Russian.
Whatever color the Finnish Nazis put on

[sergo1914]

Quote: Moskovit

I agree with you. But current proponents of the white movement cannot understand this. According to them, Latvians, Jews and traitors fought on the side of the Reds.

Also the Chinese, the elusive avengers and Gaidar.

[gorenina91]

-Absolutely hopeless position of the Wrangel army ...- not a single chance of victory ...
- To fight with weapons, which the allies allegedly give a ride to ... ... a failure idea ...
-All factories, all "weapons", all industrial potential, manpower and all resources were in the hands of the Bolsheviks ... -Wrangel had nothing but the "promises" of his allies ...
- The merit of Wrangel is only that he relatively quickly and in an organized manner evacuated his troops ...
-But even then, the entire rather powerful Wrangel army turned out to be simply "superfluous" in emigration ...
- Personally, my assumption (IMHO) ...- it was necessary for the whole army to go to serve in Bulgaria and become a regular Bulgarian army (of the Russian composition) ... -Bulgaria would only benefit from this ...
-And what military and political weight would Bulgaria gain ... -how many problems would be immediately resolved in favor of Bulgaria ...
- The same is true for Serbia ...- For Serbia, everything would have been much more successful ...- its military potential would have sharply increased ...
-But .., alas ...- And the powerful, staffed, cadre professional Russian army turned into a giant congregation of homeless people ...

[sergo1914]

In the end, in this unequal struggle, he had to retreat to Sevastopol and go abroad with the army - in order to preserve its remnants.

Enchanting. What for? Someone had questions about the reasons for the defeat of the “whites”?

[Fevralsk. Morev]

Quote: Hunghouse

So it’s not worth blaming Stolypin and Wrangel for current affairs. These are the descendants of the Brezhnevs, Gorbachev

I do not blame Stolypin and Wrangel for anything. I blame the current ruling regime for realizing the ideology of the Orthodox Nazi anti-simite philosopher Ilyin. And why did you put Brezhnev on a par with the villains Gorbachev and Yeltsin? That under Brezhnev a separate article was built and made.

[Dalton]

current ruling regime

it’s generally beyond reality.
This is just a watcher. Behind a global colony named Russia.
He embodies the task posed by the modern hegemon of the United States (naturally disguising himself), and not at all of some unnecessary Ilyin

[Doliva63]

"For the Russian people to choose their own Master."
How strong is the dream of slaves for some!
It is necessary that such articles have some kind of thread spittoon.

[Dalton]

About slaves?
As I understand it, people like you, while serving the current government, are making slaves out of people.
As for those times ... I already wrote, I repeat.
There were much more red noblemen than whites.
And already in 1861 the lackeys were canceled, you are our diploma.
I want to spit on reading comments that do not give anything except aside from the fact that they show cave illiteracy and the frank deception of their writers)

[Doliva63]

Quote: Dalton

About slaves?
As I understand it, people like you, while serving the current government, are making slaves out of people.
As for those times ... I already wrote, I repeat.
There were much more red noblemen than whites.
And already in 1861 the lackeys were canceled, you are our diploma.
I want to spit on reading comments that do not give anything except aside from the fact that they show cave illiteracy and the frank deception of their writers)

You have not addressed the address. I'm allergic to delirium and blatant illiteracy. Finish school, where I hope they will teach you to write without errors, then a specialized university, and then, it may make sense to discuss something with you.

[Dalton]

I'm allergic to delirium and blatant illiteracy. Finish school, where I hope they will teach you to write without errors, then a specialized university, and then, it may make sense to discuss something with you.

this is exactly what I am trying to explain to you.
raise your educational level first. In order not to write about the battles for mythical estates and slaves in the 20th century))
then you don’t have to put a spittoon while reading your comments Doliva63 (Valentine)

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Duke? This one will write! He also has this:
"" ... in the first government of Communist Russia there were only 13 ethnic Russians and over 300 Jews out of a total of 384 commissars.
.... A table compiled in 1918 by Robert Wilton, the London Times correspondent in Russia, shows that there were 384 commissioners at the time, including 2 blacks, 13 Russians, 15 Chinese, 22 Armenians and over 300 Jews. "
This is from 15 members of the first Council of People's Commissars! Russians, Jews, Armenians - of course, the Chinese - this way and that, and what kind of nationality - a Negro?

[Sugar Honeyovich]

A Negro can be North American (American), South American (Brazilian, Haitian, etc.), finally African - there are a lot of nationalities. Who are we talking about? The author blurted out not from the greatest mind, others repeat after him ...

[migrant]

In 1612, good people defeated thieves, and in 1917, thieves defeated good people. And a hundred years ago, that thieves skillfully bribed promises of a brighter future (jelly rivers and gingerbread banks) the bulk of the people spoiled by slogans that no Wrangels, people of honor and professional wars could not do anything about it. All the more so since the reds opposed a single, totalitarian fist to the spread of the white movement. How can one not recall the fable of the broom and its individual rods. Bad when there is no unity. The problem.