Military Review

Strategic landing

131
The Ulagaevsky landing is the landing operation of the Special Forces Group of the Russian Army (the core is the 1 and 2 I Kuban Cossack and Consolidated Infantry Divisions) under the command of Lieutenant General S. G. Ulaya in the Kuban 1 (14) August - 25 August (7 September ) 1920


Strategic landing


Landing training


In preparing the landing operation, various factors were taken into account.

The forces of the Russian Army P.N. Wrangel on the Crimean Front were numerically significantly inferior to the Red troops of the Southern Front, and qualitatively heterogeneous. The divisions of the Volunteer Corps had strong cadres formed during the Civil War. Despite a significant percentage in the rank and file of captured Red Army soldiers, they were reliable formations suitable for participation in battles of any level. The Don and Kuban units understood the need to continue the Civil War only as a speedy way to return to their villages and villages. Once upon a time, there was strong opposition among the Cossacks to the volunteer Headquarters - and therefore, despite the fact that these units fought well on the Crimean front, P.N. Wrangel’s Headquarters still did not particularly rely on them, not considering them completely reliable for independent operations on territories of Cossack regions - where they could fall under various influences.


P.N. Wrangell


All this was complicated by the fact that during the landing operation in the Kuban P.N. Wrangel did not intend to give up activity on the Crimean front. Meanwhile, the situation, the nature and goals of the landing demanded that the detachments allocated for this, firstly, have sufficient strength (to be able to easily defeat the advanced units and the nearest reserves of the Reds in the Kuban), secondly, of exceptional political reliability, and thirdly, the predominance in them Cossack, primarily Kuban, units — in order to give the operation the character of the liberation of the Kuban by the forces of the Cossacks themselves, fourthly, the organization of detachments was thought of in such a way that, if successful, it would be easy to deploy new ones from them, Larger connections.

Wrangel Headquarters coped with the above tasks.

The composition of the amphibious forces was formulated as follows: for operations in the main operational area, a special task force was formed consisting of: 1) Combined infantry division (General B.I. Kazanovich) - 3050 bayonets, 63 machine guns, 4 guns; 2) 1-I Kuban Cossack Division (General N. G. Babiev) - 2000 saber, 500 bayonets, 100 machine guns, 7 guns; 3) 2-I Kuban Cossack Division (General A. M. Shifner-Markevich) - 1800 saber, 200 bayonets, 80 machine guns, 6 guns; 4) Personnel of the 4th Kuban Cossack Division - 300 bayonets, 250 saber; 5) Technical parts: a hundred railway workers, 3 armored vehicles, 3 aircraft. Total 4050 bayonets, 4050 saber, 243 machine gun, 17 guns.


Lieutenant General B.I. Kazanovich



Lieutenant General N. G. Babiev


For actions in secondary areas, detachments were allocated:

a) Novorossiysk direction: the detachment of General Cherepov as part of the Kornilov Military School and the detachment of Bredovtsy - 1500 bayonets, 15 machine guns, 2 guns.


Major General A. N. Cherepov


b) Taman direction: the detachment of General Kharlamov as part of the Alekseyevsky cadet school, several spare and Cossack units, and subsequently the cunkers of the Kornilov school - 2450 bayonets, 500 sabers, 25 machine guns, XNUM machine guns, 6 machine guns, who joined them (after failure near Novorossiysk).

Most of the landing forces were taken by P.N. Wrangel from strategic reserves, and only a smaller part (cavalry) was withdrawn from the Crimean sector - which achieved a relatively slight weakening of the latter.

In combat, the group of General S. G. Ulagai stood out sharply, consisting of old tested formations and units.

Paratrooper operations by P.N. Wrangel had previously been practiced quite often - some of which were already experienced in the airborne units. The organizational design of the landing groups and detachments was made in advance - 2-3 weeks before the start of the operation. This allowed most of them to work out the basic issues of landing operations (boarding, joint actions with fleetlanding, initial actions on the enemy shore, etc.). Boarding was prepared in two ports - Kerch and Feodosia. In Kerch, as a port of a smaller capacity and less remote from the Kuban coast, mainly infantry units were to be loaded. In Feodosia it was supposed to load cavalry and technical units.

The secret of the landing could not be maintained. The reconnaissance of the headquarters of the red 9-th Kuban army in the first half of July recorded preparations for the landing operation.

The 1th Kuban Division by P. N. Wrangel was withdrawn to the reserve in mid-July and transferred by rail to the area of ​​the junction of the station. Dzhankoy, and then secretly marching order and almost immediately before the start of landing is concentrated in the region of Feodosia. In the same way, units of the 2-th Kuban Division were withdrawn from the Crimean Front and transferred deep into Crimea. By 12 of August, all the necessary forces and means were concentrated in the designated points. On the night of 13 and partly in the afternoon of 13 on August, landing at ships was carried out at the ports of Kerch and Theodosia.

The firm order and discipline during the landing, as well as the secrecy of the concentration of units and floating equipment to the ports allowed the landing process itself to be carried out unnoticed by the red command - despite the fact that the latter showed increased attention to the eastern coast of Crimea and reconnaissance aircraft of the 9 army 11 - 13 August appeared more than once over the Kerch Peninsula.


Lieutenant General S. G. Ulagay


On the afternoon and partly evening of the 13 of August, the vessels with the Ulaya group separated from Feodosia and Kerch in separate detachments and, having passed through the Kerch Strait in the dark, connected to the Sea of ​​Azov, after which they headed towards the Primorsko-Akhtarskaya area under escort. Cherepov’s detachment, loaded at the same time as Ulagai’s group, received the task, masking the latter’s direction to Primorsko-Akhtarskaya, to fire at the dawn of 14 on August Blagoveshchenskaya-Anapa area, and only after that make a landing in the Novorossiysk area.

The White Command and the Government of Crimea paid the most serious attention to the political preparation and political support of the operation. All measures were taken to give the operation the character of a campaign against the Kuban in order to assist the population in the liberation of the Bolsheviks from power. An explanatory work was carried out in the troops. In particular, it was noted that the entire Kuban is full of rebel troops - and in the mountains they united in 30-thousand. the rebel army of General Fostikov. One of the tasks of campaigning and political work among the population of the Kuban (especially in the coastal areas), along with the conviction that the collapse of Soviet power was inevitable, was to keep the Cossacks from scattered performances - until the landing. With their appearance, the Cossacks were called for an all-out uprising, but temporarily it was recommended to him to confine himself to passive resistance to the events of the Soviet government (failure to appear at mobilization, failure to fulfill the surplus appraisal, etc.) and preparation for armed struggle.

Cadres decide everything


In selecting the leaders of the landing, P.N. This was especially clearly expressed when solving the personnel issue in the Ulagai group — Ulagai himself and his closest assistants (Generals Babiev, Shifner-Markevich, Colonel Buryak, etc.) were very popular among the Cossacks at one time. Immediately prior to the operation, P. N. Wrangel ordered the most deserted ordinary Cossacks to be made officers, and the most deserved of the latter to officers. Along with this, a lot of work was done to strengthen discipline in the airborne units. General Ulagai warned his group with a special order that “the slightest violence and encroachment on the property of the population will be punishable by execution” - for which military units will follow all the units.

Carrying out these events, P.N. Wrangel tried to take into account the experience of relations between A.I. Denikin and the Cossack governments - when the unsettledness of these relations was often a formal reason for the occurrence of misunderstandings between them.

P.N. Wrangel tried to eliminate this occasion in advance. Shortly before the start of the operation, he concluded a special agreement with the Cossack governments, which aimed, on the one hand, to differentiate their functions in the liberated Cossack territories, and, on the other hand, to rename the latter in favor of P. N. Wrangel with the well-known declaration of “rights of the Cossacks”. Under this agreement, the powers of P.N. Wrangel, as the head of the supreme military and civil authority, extended to the Cossack regions. The latter guaranteed autonomy in internal governance, but all foreign, monetary, customs, food policies, disposition of the armed forces, management of telephone and telegraph lines, industry, railways and trade regulation were concentrated in the hands of P.N. Wrangel and his government. This nature of the agreement on the eve of the operation caused strong opposition to P.N. Wrangel in the Cossack government and political circles. This opposition was especially acute on the part of a number of Kuban Cossack politicians. In response, P.N. Wrangel forbade the entire government apparatus and members of the Kuban government to enter the Kuban along with the landing forces, and the formation of a civilian apparatus on the liberated Cossack territory was entrusted to his supporter General Filimonov, the former Kuban chieftain during the time of Denikin, appointing him to the general I’m laying the civic assistant.


Lieutenant General M.A. Fostikov


This discrepancy, negatively affecting the overall process of implementing planning, particularly negatively affected the establishment of communication between the units of the Russian army and the rebels of General Fostikov. Fostikov initially had no connection with the Crimea and acted exclusively on his own. The first, shortly before the start of the operation, established contact with Fostikov (through Georgia) the Kuban government. This created a fear at Stavka P.N. Wrangel that the rebel movement and its leaders could be used by the Kuban government against Crimea - when transferring the main base of whites to the Kuban. Therefore, instead of taking immediate measures to establish proper communication with the Insurgent Army and giving it instructions on joint actions with the airborne troops, P. N. Wrangel sent a group of officers to Fostikov with the task: to study the movement and take leadership over the latter (if it is in insecure hands). All this took time, and although Fostikov’s trustworthiness regarding Wrangel at the beginning of the operation was revealed, there was no properly organized operational communication between the Crimea and the rebels at that time, and the rebel units couldn’t act in concert with the landing - which greatly simplified and accelerated the fight for the Reds with both opponents.

To be continued
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  1. bistrov.
    bistrov. 8 September 2019 06: 49
    +11
    We must pay tribute to the Bolsheviks - they managed to organize an excellent army, which practically destroyed all the counter-revolutionary (white) troops led by experienced tsarist generals and gave a good kick to the troops of foreign interventionists, forcing them to leave Russia.
    True, then the Communists shredded, were more engaged in speaking than in affairs, and in the end literally scammed everything, even the original Russian territories, themselves turned into capitalists, having begun to rob and exploit the people even harder than any White Guards. The person is strange. Why have 10 rooms if you need only one for life? And some have several mansions ... Anyway, because you die and turn to dust, you can’t take anything to the grave with you .. Isn’t it better to preserve your own health?
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 8 September 2019 07: 38
      -18
      Quote: bistrov.
      they were unable to organize an excellent army, which practically destroyed like all the counter-revolutionary (white) troops led by experienced tsarist generals

      The red forces were counter-revolutionary; they destroyed ALL the fruits of the February revolution.
      Quote: bistrov.
      and gave a good kick to the troops of foreign interventionists, forcing them to get out of Russia.

      Oh, tell us about the "Soviet-American" front, about the Soviet-French "battles", etc.lol The interventionists came (like the USSR to Iran) when the Bolsheviks sided with the aggressor and SAMI left when the WWII ended and the need for it fell away.

      For reference: the wildest and the worst German interventionist Bolsheviks FOREVER gave a third of the European part of Russia and 40% of the workers they loved, fed him with GOLD and bread.
      1. Moskovit
        Moskovit 8 September 2019 09: 09
        +18
        No tales about good allies. Until November 1918, the Entente and the Allies did not really care about the Bolsheviks, but as soon as the war ended, they immediately climbed to derail Russia. And only the fatigue of society from the war and the split within the "allies" themselves did not allow starting full-fledged military operations.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 8 September 2019 09: 32
          -12
          Quote: Moskovit
          Do not tales about the good allies.

          WHERE did you find it? belay
          Quote: Moskovit
          Before November 1918 The Entente and the Allies did not care much for the Bolsheviks, but as soon as the war ended, they immediately climbed to get Russia.

          Go to school and finally find out that the Entente has landed in Russia long before November 1918

          Let me also remind you that before the VOR, no one thought of any intervention, this is the pure result of the VOR.

          The USSR did the same in 1941 with Iran, intervened there in conjunction with ... the former Antanovka of England.
          1. Moskovit
            Moskovit 8 September 2019 12: 07
            +13
            Until November 18, the continents of the allies were void. What could even 10.000 soldiers do against 1.2 million Germans and Austrians? We are adults, why deceive ourselves and others. And the goal of the Allies was not help in the struggle against the axis, but the destruction of Bolshevism and the dismemberment of Russia.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 8 September 2019 12: 23
              -12
              Quote: Moskovit
              Until November 18, the continents of the allies were void. What could even 10.000 soldiers do against 1.2 million Germans and Austrians?

              All 1,2 million .... went to Murmansk?
              Quote: Moskovit
              And the goal of the Allies was not help in the struggle against the axis, but the destruction of Bolshevism and the dismemberment of Russia.

              What other "help", to whom? The actual ally of Germany-SNK? belay
              They didn't give a damn about the Bolsheviks, but even more about the whites.
              Their goals are to exclude the help of the German SNK and the weakening of Russia
              1. Moskovit
                Moskovit 8 September 2019 12: 56
                +14
                What is the use of landing English, and then other contingents in Murmansk, in the fight against Germany? Especially after the conclusion of the Brest-Litovsk peace? Purely selfish interests.
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 8 September 2019 13: 21
                  -14
                  Quote: Moskovit
                  What is the use of landing English, and then other contingents in Murmansk, in the struggle against Germany? Especially after the conclusion of the Brest-Litovsk peace?

                  Preventing huge values ​​from entering the occupiers. And precisely after the conclusion of the "peace": the Bolsheviks fed them with Russian bread and gold, WHAT prevented them from helping ... with Entente assets?
                2. Ryazan87
                  Ryazan87 9 September 2019 17: 46
                  +3
                  Just one question: who, in fact, invited the allies to Murmansk, and for what purpose?
                  1. Pilat2009
                    Pilat2009 10 October 2019 14: 14
                    0
                    Quote: Ryazanets87
                    Just one question: who, in fact, invited the allies to Murmansk, and for what purpose?

                    And you read the story
                    1. Ryazan87
                      Ryazan87 10 October 2019 15: 28
                      0
                      Which one?) The story about the chairman of the Murmansk Regional Council of Workers 'and Soldiers' Deputies, t-sha A.M. St. George's and "Verbal, but verbatim protocol agreement of the Murmansk Council with representatives of the Entente"?
      2. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 8 September 2019 11: 26
        +10
        Quote: Olgovich
        and SAMI left

        Yes, they left. For fear that you can NEVER leave.
        Quote: Olgovich
        when the WWII ended and the need disappeared

        From the spring of 1919 to October 1922 - for a long time they "ran out" PMA! And the need did not disappear, but on the contrary, arose. The need to carry off the legs while the head is intact. fellow
        Quote: Olgovich
        The Bolsheviks FOREVER gave a third of the European part of Russia FOREVER to the wildest and most terrible German interventionist

        Only the German interventionist himself did not clearly notice this. Not that the Bolsheviks gave him so much, nor that it is forever. laughing
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 8 September 2019 12: 13
          -14
          Quote: Sahar Medovich
          Yes, they left. For fear that you can NEVER leave.

          What a formidable Sugar! lol Where can these "fears" be seen, except in the sugar delirium?
          Quote: Sahar Medovich
          From the spring of 1919 to October 1922 - for a long time they "ran out" PMA!

          Ignoramus: from March 1918, the allies in Russia, by the end of 1919, basically left Russia.
          The Japanese tried to catch on, but Americans ordered them to get out of Russia. Not yours.
          Quote: Sahar Medovich
          Only the German interventionist himself did not clearly notice this. Not that the Bolsheviks gave him so much, nor that it is forever.

          1. Namely, that forever Brest betrayal was FOREVER, there are no time limits.
          2. Noticed: for these territories and fed, perked up and went, in a new way, to kill and slaughter. Thanks yours.
          1. Sugar Honeyovich
            Sugar Honeyovich 8 September 2019 16: 35
            +8
            Quote: Olgovich
            de these "fears" can be seen except in the sugar delirium?

            Means, somewhere it is possible, since they saw them. If they didn’t see, they would not leave. Themselves.
            Quote: Olgovich
            Ignoramus: from March 1918, the allies in Russia, by the end of 1919, basically left Russia.

            Ignoramus and liar: from March 1918 to at least January 1919 they entered (Finland and Poland - a separate conversation), after a very long time they were cleaned.
            Quote: Olgovich
            He noticed: for he fed on these territories, took up his arms and went, in a new way, to kill and slaughter. Thanks yours.

            Noticed, but not that. In Brest, it was not the Bolsheviks who undertook to feed the Germans with bread and lard, sugar and "eggs", to supply them with ore. And this treaty with the Germans was directed against the Bolsheviks!
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 9 September 2019 08: 59
              -2
              Quote: Sahar Medovich
              Means, somewhere it is possible, since they saw them. Would not see - would not leave

              That is, except in your delirium, nowhere among the allies you will not find this. Rt
              And your nonsense ..
              Quote: Sahar Medovich
              Ignoramus and liar: from March 1918 to at least January 1919 entered

              Ignorant, learn the RUSSIAN LANGUAGE, once again: from MARCH 1918 allies in Russia, (Comma) By the end of 1919, they had mostly left Russia. Got it?
              Quote: Sahar Medovich
              Noticed, but not that. In Brest, it was not the Bolsheviks who undertook to feed the Germans with bread and lard, sugar and "eggs", to supply them with ore. And this treaty with the Germans was directed against the Bolsheviks!

              WHO dragged ukrov for a collar in Brest, forgot (did not know)? fool Your morons. Who recognized the independence of Ukraine in its modern borders, betraying Nvorossia.
              .
              German indemnity from SNK - 6 billion marks (2,75 billion rubles): including 1,5 billion rubles in gold (245,5 tons), 545,44 million in loan obligations, and another billion in deliveries of raw materials and goods.
              1. Sugar Honeyovich
                Sugar Honeyovich 10 September 2019 07: 37
                +1
                Quote: Olgovich
                Learn Russian language,

                Yes, I’m just doing what I’m teaching you. And history and the Russian language, and now also mathematics.
                Quote: Olgovich
                WHO dragged ukrov for scruff in Brest

                Quote: Olgovich
                Who recognized the independence of Ukraine

                Dragged by recognition of its independence? And if they had not recognized, UKRs would not have ended up in Brest? Maybe someone made Krasnov with a knife at the throat with the Germans to seek friendship?
                Do not know how to lie - do not make the audience laugh in the courtroom!
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 10 September 2019 08: 59
                  -1
                  Quote: Sahar Medovich
                  Yes, I’m just doing what I’m teaching you. And history and the Russian language, and now also mathematics.

                  commas already mastered? Nope lol
                  Quote: Sahar Medovich
                  Dragged thethat recognized its independence?

                  no.
                  Quote: Sahar Medovich
                  And if they had not recognized, UKRs would not have ended up in Brest?

                  This is NOT an educational program: read HOW they turned up in Brest and WHO dragged them there by the scruff.
                  Quote: Sahar Medovich
                  Maybe someone made Krasnov with a knife at the throat with the Germans to seek friendship?

                  What does it .... Krasnov? Yes, even against the backdrop of Bolshevik traitors on a national scale?
                  Quote: Sahar Medovich
                  Don't know how to lie - don't make the audience laugh in courtroom!

                  Are you fond of fly agaric? lol
                  1. Sugar Honeyovich
                    Sugar Honeyovich 10 September 2019 16: 46
                    -1
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    This is NOT an educational program: read it yourself

                    I read it a long time ago. Because I spend educational program. For you
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    What does it .... Krasnov?

                    Despite the fact that he is a German litter and a traitor to the Russian people, an ignoramus.
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 10 September 2019 19: 38
                      -1
                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      I read it a long time ago. Because I spend educational program. For you

                      You wouldn’t ask the “independence” questions from the Turkish people. And you ask them, ignoramus.
                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      Despite the fact that he is a German litter and a traitor to the Russian people, an ignoramus.

                      He forever gave a third of Heb. Russian German-Fururek invaders ?! fool
          2. Moore
            Moore 9 September 2019 04: 00
            +4
            Quote: Olgovich
            What a formidable Sugar!

            Quote: Olgovich
            Ignorance

            Go to the person, as befits an intelligent marginal? Once again I ask the question: where do you come from?
            The master’s great-grandfather walked in footmen and still have a family heirloom - silver spoons stolen by him?
            Ah no no no. All of you are primordial pillar nobles, and great-grandfather went to the height of the German machine guns with a cigar in his mouth and cursed at the same time in French.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 9 September 2019 09: 05
              -4
              Quote: Moore
              Go to the person, as befits an intelligent marginal?

              Ignorance is my assessment of the KNOWLEDGE of an individual. I have the right.

              But the "intellectual marginal" is already an assessment of the PERSONALITY.
              Got it?
              Quote: Moore
              Once again I ask the question: where do you come from?
              The master’s great-grandfather walked in footmen and still have a family heirloom - silver spoons stolen by him?
              Ah no no no. All of you are the original table .... and.

              In short:Related -nothing to say?
              There is nothing.

              So do not clutter up the discussion with empty verbal rubbish. Who needs it? belay lol
      3. Plantagenet
        Plantagenet 8 September 2019 12: 12
        -3
        "The Red troops were counter-revolutionary, they destroyed ALL the fruits of the February Revolution."


        “The February leaders could not even think, they did not have time to notice, they did not want to believe that they had caused another, overtaking revolution, abolishing them themselves with all their centennial radicalism. In the West, from their victory to their defeat, epochs passed - here they still convulsively ripped off the crown with their front paws - and their hind legs and their entire bodies were cut off. ”

        A. Solzhenitsyn “Reflection on the February Revolution”
    2. RUSS
      RUSS 8 September 2019 11: 05
      -6
      Quote: bistrov.
      and gave a good kick to the troops of foreign interventionists, forcing them to get out of Russia.

      The interventionists themselves left, the Reds did not fight with them, with the exception of a couple of skirmishes.
      1. naidas
        naidas 8 September 2019 15: 52
        +7
        Quote: RUSS
        The interventionists themselves left, the Reds did not fight with them

        1.Yes, this can be seen in the south of Russia: from January 20, 1919 to April 28, 1919
        two French divisions: 156th and 30th (the latter arrived in Odessa from Romania); - at least 2 thousand.
        4th Polish Division, which was already in Odessa; -2tys. 17.11.18/XNUMX/XNUMX
        The 1st Army Corps of the Armed Forces of Greece, consisting of three divisions, sent to Russia from East Macedonia; historian D. Fotiadis 23 people.
        units of the White Army of Denikin, stationed in the Odessa region and in the Crimea.
        in Kherson, in street battles, in which city residents took part on the side of the Red Army, firing from windows, the battle at Berezovka lasted all day. On April 15, the Red Army attacked Sevastopol. The Allied defense was supported by the fire of French and Russian ships, as well as the Greek battleship Kilkis and the destroyer Pantir.
        2. A series of Finnish invasions in 18-22, do you think the intervention or the invasion of volunteers?
        3. And the desire of Jozef Pilsudski to restore Poland within the historical borders of the Commonwealth of 1772 is an intervention or what?
        4. Mine war with the British - the destroyer "Vittoria".
        etc.
        Please note that in the Civil and the fighting forces of white and red are insignificant, the people waited until they got it.
        1. Adjutant
          Adjutant 8 September 2019 16: 51
          -5
          Do not make laugh naidas (naidas)
          The Entente did not fight in full force in Russia. Really - symbolic contingents.
          The French Senegalese corps never came. A few English battalions or squadrons? It's funny ...
          The French did not actually participate in the clashes, those 2 supposedly divisions. They quickly curled up and left.
          Greeks (who also did not show themselves), Japanese and Poles - this is not the Entente.
          So the Poles are generally our former region and recent subjects of the Republic of Ingushetia, not without reason the Soviet-Polish war is included in the structure of the Civil War in Russia. The independent side of the conflict.
          Like the Finns.
          All these guys have nothing to do with the Entente.
          Entente - the tripartite agreement of Russia, England and France. It’s time to learn for a long time)
          1. naidas
            naidas 8 September 2019 17: 20
            +3
            Quote: Adjutant
            Entente in full force in Russia did not fight

            This is nonsense, after three years of war, to invest in a complete war in Russia after the PMA.
            Name those who wish?
            And do not forget the French under the red banner, which the Greeks shot, if the British didn’t make them, then they certainly didn’t fight with the Reds.
            Quote: Adjutant
            All these guys have nothing to do with the Entente.
            I will not argue, as far as someone has read, my answer was to this, there is not a word about the Entente:
            Quote: RUSS
            The interventionists themselves left, the Reds did not fight with them, with the exception of a couple of skirmishes.
        2. Olgovich
          Olgovich 9 September 2019 09: 23
          -4
          Quote: naidas
          , the battle of Berezovka lasted all day

          Yes, you fought a WHOLE DAY ?! This is the "BATTLE", yes. lol
          Quote: naidas
          2. A series of Finnish invasions in 18-22, do you think the intervention or the invasion of volunteers?

          What, in, "invasion"? Did the Bolsheviks agree on the BORDERS of Finland and Russia, BEFORE recognizing its independence? No? So what are the CLAIMS?
          Quote: naidas
          3. And the desire of Jozef Pilsudski to restore Poland within the historical borders of the Commonwealth of 1772 is an intervention or what?

          1. No, of course: in 1918 the Bolshevik stupid ignoramuses RECOGNIZED ALL sections of Poland invalid, than recognized the borders of 1772
          2. Against what borders did the Poles actually "intervene"? Has anyone ever recognized, signed, coordinated them? NO! Yours considered Zap. Ukraine and Belarus as their own, and the Poles with the SAME RIGHT, considered theirs. Who created this legal CHAOS? The Bolsheviks created a thief, dispersed the US, depriving Russia of its legitimate power and legitimate borders.
          Quote: naidas
          4. Mine war with the British - the destroyer "Vittoria".
          etc.

          Defended the Baltic states, the independence of which was recognized by the Bolsheviks. Who to blame?
          1. naidas
            naidas 9 September 2019 19: 43
            +1
            Quote: Olgovich
            What, in, "invasion"? Did the Bolsheviks agree on the BORDERS of Finland and Russia, BEFORE recognizing its independence? No? So what are the CLAIMS?

            The Bolsheviks also did not stipulate the borders of Japan, the USA, England, France, etc. so the presence of troops of these countries in Russia is not an invasion?
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 10 September 2019 09: 07
              -2
              Quote: naidas
              The Bolsheviks also did not stipulate the borders of Japan, the USA, England, France, etc. so the presence of troops of these countries in Russia is not an invasion?

              This is an invasion. The sameas the Soviet invasion of Iran in 1941. The goal here and there is to prevent countries from falling into the disposal of the world's evil aggressor.

              And the wars with Poland, Finland, Estonia, Latvia are the tragic consequences of the stupid, itiotic, unprofessional non-politics of the people of the People's Commissars, who did not understand the bullshit either in diplomacy, or in the laws of society, or in the relations of states, or simply in LIFE.

              They LEARNED — on blood and bones million Russian people.

              But really, they didn’t learn anyway ...
  2. Olgovich
    Olgovich 8 September 2019 06: 50
    -9
    Generals Kazanovich, Babiev, Ulagay, Cherepov, Fostikov-ALL showed excellent performance of the Heroes of WWI, some and RYAV, noted for bravery and art with the highest awards of Russia, all cavaliers of the Order of St. George ..
    Real patriots of Russia
    1. bistrov.
      bistrov. 8 September 2019 07: 02
      +10
      Quote: Olgovich
      Heroes of WWI, some and REV

      Well, this is a moot point, they lost both wars, what is that heroic? It turns out that they were not taught the same thing in the cadet schools and the tsarist academies ... Yes, and the tsarist orders, all sorts of "annas" and "officer georges" were hanged undeservedly ... where is patriotism here?
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 8 September 2019 07: 46
        -8
        Quote: bistrov.
        Well, this is a moot point, both wars they lost, what’s the heroic?

        What happened in RYAV? The "winners", dissatisfied with the result of the war, went to demonstrations and tried to commit suicide.
        Far East remained for Russia (I recall that the first Russian man appeared on the site of the future of Vladivostok ... 50 years before the war), a steel ridge is built, Russia is confidently on that.
        PMV-Russia won-see Versailles. The unrecognized so-called loser lost her. SNK
        Quote: bistrov.
        Yes, and tsarist orders, all sorts of "annas" and "officer georges" were hanged unfairly ..

        Not for you to judge.
        Quote: bistrov.
        Disgraced they, went to the service of foreign invaders, sniffed with the original enemies of the Russian people, where is patriotism?

        "They" are Bolsheviks: more betrayalsthan Brest-Russia in its history-did not know.
        1. Sugar Honeyovich
          Sugar Honeyovich 8 September 2019 11: 30
          +4
          Quote: Olgovich
          greater betrayal than Brest-Russia in its history-did not know.

          Unfortunately, I knew much more. In 1762
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 8 September 2019 12: 24
            +3
            Are you talking about the miracle of the Brandenburg house?
            1. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 8 September 2019 15: 19
              +2
              I mean the Holstein-Gottorp "miracle". The Brandenburg House miracle happened three years earlier.
              1. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 8 September 2019 15: 43
                +3
                The death of Elizaveta Petrovna is the second "Miracle of the Brandenburg House".
                By the way, I never could understand why we had to participate in that war?
                1. Sugar Honeyovich
                  Sugar Honeyovich 8 September 2019 16: 37
                  0
                  The death of Elizabeth Petrovna is a grief, not a miracle. Miracle was her heir.
                  1. Senior seaman
                    Senior seaman 8 September 2019 17: 29
                    +1
                    So this is a German term. It really is that one is great, then another is death.
          2. Olgovich
            Olgovich 8 September 2019 12: 29
            -7
            Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
            Quote: Olgovich
            greater betrayal than Brest-Russia in its history-did not know.

            Unfortunately, I knew much more. AT 1762 Mr.

            Shaw, gave THIRD of the European territory, 40% of industrial workers and pr-aggressor and occupier? belay lol
            1. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 8 September 2019 16: 53
              +5
              They surrendered the territory annexed to Russia as a result of the victory over the Germans. Forever (the Bolsheviks amended here in favor of Russia). Given for no reason, purely out of whim. And they did not agree to temporarily cede the territory lost as a result of the defeat from the Germans, as in 1918.
              By the way. By the most biased account of the Brest Peace, Russia lost 26% of its territory. And this is not a third. Are you "bad" not only in history, but also in arithmetic?
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 9 September 2019 09: 36
                -1
                Quote: Sahar Medovich
                Lost territory annexed to Russia as a result of victory over Germans

                So I didn’t understand: you are talking about this lousy scrap land write that it:
                Unfortunately, I knew much more. In 1762
                than the loss of territories of more than two France ?! Are you in your own way? fool
                Quote: Sahar Medovich
                But not agreed on time cede territory lost as a result of defeat from the Germans, as in 1918

                Ignorant, in the text of Brest there is NO term "for a while". There it was FOREVER.
                Fall at the feet of ANTANTE for defeating Germany and annulling Brest!
                Quote: Sahar Medovich
                On the most biased account of the Brest Peace, Russia lost 26% of its territory. And this is not a third. Are you "bad" not only in history, but also in arithmetic?

                26% is about a third. 26% a little? 90% coal loss is small? 75% steel loss is small? Rub 40% of workers, few? This is WHERE such a betrayal has been seen in history?
                1. Sugar Honeyovich
                  Sugar Honeyovich 10 September 2019 07: 44
                  0
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  So I did not understand: you write about this lousy piece of land that it is:
                  Unfortunately, I knew much more. In 1762

                  Once they do not understand, I repeat: about this. Yes, this is a betrayal.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Ignorant, in the text of Brest there is no term "for a while"

                  Ignorant, but about "for a while" is said in other texts. In the same time.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  26% is about a third. 26% a little? 90% coal loss is small? 75% steel loss is small? Rub 40% of workers, few? This is WHERE such a betrayal has been seen in history?

                  Why not about half? Or better yet, three quarters?
                  All this is a lot. But it does not give you the right to lie. And the worst betrayals in history are both seen and heard. Moreover, in Brest on 03.03.1918 there was no betrayal.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 10 September 2019 09: 31
                    -1
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    Once they do not understand, I repeat: about this. Yes, this is a betrayal.

                    You write that this is a GREAT betrayer than Brest.
                    From which conclusions:
                    1. You admitted that Brest is a betrayal
                    2. You claim that less ..... more than more belay lol that testifies to complete darkness lol request
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    Ignorant, but about "for a while" is said in other texts. In the same time.

                    Has sclerosis taken over? lol Let me remind you:
                    agreed on time cede territory lost as a result of defeat from the Germans

                    In Consent (Berest betrayal) there is NOT a word "FOR TIME". There FOREVER.
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    Why not about half? Or better yet, three quarters?

                    Because you do not know the RUSSIAN language:
                    Beside what, the offer. with kind. Indicates the approximate measure, quantity, time. It weighs about. kilograms. Boy about. ten years. Oh, midnight.
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    All this - quite a few. But it does not give you the right to lie.

                    stop-stop: 90% coal 73% steel is just .... MUCH ?!
                    Do you realize that Russia has TOTAL ... 10% of coal and FOUR? In your rage to whiten the traitors you become ... all the more ridiculous request
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    А even worse betrayals in history and seen and heard

                    Oh, again the recognition of Brest as a betrayal. MALADETS! yes
                    Examples, by the way, are a liar, examples. lol
                    1. Sugar Honeyovich
                      Sugar Honeyovich 10 September 2019 16: 58
                      -1
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      You write that this is a BIG betrayer than Brest

                      This is if for a second you accept the lie that there was a betrayal in Brest. What it was not.
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      In Concord (Berest betrayal) there is NOT a word "FOR TIME"

                      There, no. And in other places there. What turned out to be in reality is known.
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      It weighs about. kilograms. Boy about. ten years. Oh, midnight.

                      Well yes: it weighs between 10g-10kg, i.e. about a kilogram. The boy is about 5-15 years old, i.e. about 10. Between the 6th evening and the 6th morning - around midnight. 26% is a little more than a quarter, i.e. about a third. If necessary - about half. Insanity grows stronger!
                      Examples, ignoramus and sclerotic? -See above.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 10 September 2019 19: 20
                        -1
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        This is if for a second you accept the lie that there was a betrayal in Brest. .

                        TWO times you yourself called him a betrayal, where you were pinned
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        There, no. And in other places there. What turned out to be in reality is known.

                        We are talking specifically about Brest, about the contract. Who and what hissed in the corners is uninteresting. The main thing is BUSINESS. Treacherous business. The Entente annulled Brest, not traitors.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Well yes: it weighs between 10g-10kg, i.e. about a kilogram. The boy is about 5-15 years old, i.e. about 10. Between the 6th evening and the 6th morning - around midnight

                        belay fool lol
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Examples, ignoramus and sclerotic? -See above

                        Nothing above !. Sclerosis?
            2. naidas
              naidas 9 September 2019 19: 45
              +1
              Quote: Olgovich
              Shaw, gave THIRD of the European territory, 40% of industrial workers and pr-aggressor and occupier?

              Whites are even worse, they gave all of Russia to the Bolsheviks. Traitors and traitors are white.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 10 September 2019 09: 41
                -1
                Quote: naidas
                White is worse , gave all of Russia to the Bolsheviks. Traitors and traitors are white.

                Interestingly, you speak Russian: if, according to you, white (who are worse than the Bolsheviks) traitors, then WHAT are the unimaginably large TRADERS ... Bolsheviks (worse than white) ?!
                However, I agree with you! lol
                1. naidas
                  naidas 10 September 2019 14: 44
                  +1
                  I will keep thanks, I will remind:
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  White is even worse, they gave all of Russia to the Bolsheviks. Traitors and traitors are white. I agree with you!
      2. naidas
        naidas 8 September 2019 16: 52
        0
        Well, they threw off the tsar, they made the rule in Russia during the war, so the generals won the war for themselves, sweet and patriotic.
    2. Moskovit
      Moskovit 8 September 2019 09: 17
      +8
      What they could not defeat these degenerates, traitors and criminals, which are the Bolsheviks, in your opinion. Well then, you remember the other generals. Potapov, Lebedev, Samoilo, etc.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 8 September 2019 10: 04
        -8
        Quote: Moskovit
        What they could not defeat these degenerates, traitors and criminals, which are the Bolsheviks, in your opinion.

        It has long been answered: while the Heroes fought at the front against the invaders (see above), the Swiss traitors abroad, using deserters and rear pants, hit the Motherland from the rear, seized power in the country and weapons of the 12 millionth army, introduced forced, punitive mobilization (voluntary the call to the Red Army completely failed), they made terror and, of course, wild lies and hypocrisy poured in a stream.
        Quote: Moskovit
        Well then, you remember the other generals. Potapov.

        Potapov - "authority", yes lol - Not a DAY in the ranks of the parquet SHARKUN, a disgusting bait provocateur of the special services ("Trust"), they entrusted him ... to teach French. language. lol It is a pity that he did not live up to 1937, when almost all of them received a well-deserved bullet.

        You still remember Ignatiev: he is also a "combatant" ("50 years ... in the ranks" lol laughing ) -SHARKUN. Cursed for betrayal by his mother and sibling, a truly combat officer, wounded in the attack by a WWI veteran.
        1. Hunghuz
          Hunghuz 8 September 2019 10: 47
          +4
          I especially liked Olgovich from an episode from Ignatiev’s memoirs, where he, being a military agent in France, CRITICIZES a colleague - a military agent in one of the Scandinavian countries for his decision in August 14 to resign and leave for the Army. That is, to do what the real Russian officer was supposed to do.
          1. Hunghuz
            Hunghuz 8 September 2019 10: 57
            -7
            Comrades who are criticized by officers and generals of the Russian army who deserve military orders, it is worth remembering that they deserved rewards with their blood in battles with an external enemy. Unlike the heroes of the Civil (who fought with their own) and local conflicts, hung with red banners and beaten in 41.
            And so fate ordered that the real front-line officers and generals (former drummers, the Union of St. George cavaliers, etc.) fought on the side of the whites, while on the side of the reds mainly the rear officers and staff, who left the internal districts after the collapse of the old army (where their families lived and the headquarters and directorates of central Russia were stationed, where the Sov. power. They helped build a regular red army.
            But those who skillfully fight in wars with an external adversary are not suitable for a civil war. And vice versa.
            There is nothing to be done, such is life. Because it happened
            1. Kronos
              Kronos 8 September 2019 11: 18
              0
              No, many officers who showed themselves well in World War II fought in the Civil War.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 8 September 2019 11: 56
                -7
                Quote: Kronos
                No a bunch of officers who performed well in World War II fought in the civil war

                Yeah: out of hundreds thousands officers of Russia in 1917, to the Second World War in the army there are several ... HUNDRED
              2. Plantagenet
                Plantagenet 8 September 2019 12: 17
                +2
                "There are many officers who showed themselves well in the Second World War and fought in the civil war."

                Budyonny? Not? Maybe Voroshilov? : what
                1. Kronos
                  Kronos 8 September 2019 12: 34
                  +1
                  Here there are examples https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiEZUND3dok
                2. Edward Vashchenko
                  Edward Vashchenko 8 September 2019 14: 56
                  +3
                  Zhukov, Vasilevsky, Malinovsky, Rokossovsky and others, other others
                  1. Hunghuz
                    Hunghuz 8 September 2019 16: 58
                    +2
                    And which of them besides Vasilevsky was an officer?)
                    And the ratio of combat and rear is not in favor of the Reds.
                    Yes, the organization simply defeated tactical skill and courage. Not in the first)
                    1. naidas
                      naidas 8 September 2019 17: 26
                      0
                      Quote: Hunghouse
                      And which of them besides Vasilevsky was an officer?

                      Here it is better to compare: officers and generals of the Russian army who deserved military orders survived to the Second World War and how did they show it?
                    2. Edward Vashchenko
                      Edward Vashchenko 8 September 2019 17: 40
                      +2
                      In modern warfare, beginning with the Russian-Japanese war, tactical skill and courage are nothing compared to organization, this is the problem of RIA - the lack of organization - and the "organization" of the battle is the military leader's talent.
                      Of course, in war, in battle, anything can happen, but battles with "courage" cannot be won without organization.
                      By the way, in the rear of the whites it did not get any better with the organization - no conclusions from the crisis of the rear of the 1914-1916 years, unlike the reds.
                      A.V. From childhood, Suvorov studied battle plans, G.K. Zhukov memorized topography on tactical maps after classes at the Academy, that is, in addition to talent (given by God), deep knowledge was added, thereby organized the victory process.
                      Sincerely.
                    3. Plantagenet
                      Plantagenet 8 September 2019 19: 09
                      +1
                      “The ideas about the inevitable future war were extremely primitive, no one doubted the lightning victory. In the course were the slogans: "Beat the enemy on its territory", "Little blood, a mighty blow!". In films about the future war, the Germans and Japanese fell in hundreds, beveled by our fire. Of the deceased heroes of the Civil War, they knew Chapaev, Schors, Frunze, Lazo, and of those who lived, Voroshilov, Budyonny, Blucher, Tukhachevsky. It was these latter who were to lead us into a new battle under the leadership of Comrade Stalin, to whom, according to the official version, we owed victory in the Civil War.
                      And who would dare to hint that by the fifth anniversary of the Red Army, Pravda had published an editorial under the heading “Leon Trotsky - the organizer of victory”?
                      Who could have imagined that in the very coming years Blucher and Tukhachevsky would be executed as enemies of the people, and Voroshilov and Budyonny would disgracefully disgrace themselves as commanders in the very first battles of the war with Germany, a war in which the Germans would be at four months later the gates of Moscow, having captured by this time three million of our soldiers and commanders? ”

                      Georgy Ilyich Mirsky “Life in three eras”
                      1. naidas
                        naidas 8 September 2019 20: 38
                        +1
                        Everything is relative:
                        The winner in WWI France, declared war on Germany on 1.09.39., Which began on 10.05.40 for France and ended on 22.06.40. By this time, most of its territory was occupied, and almost nothing remained of the army.
                      2. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 9 September 2019 09: 44
                        0
                        Quote: naidas
                        Everything is relative:
                        The winner in WWI France, declared war on Germany 1.09.39., Which for France nStarted on May 10.05.40, 22.06.40 and ended on June XNUMX, XNUMX.By this time most of its territory was occupied as well.

                        Let's compare: in the same time, i.e. for 1,5 months of the war, the USSR lost the territory of TWO complete France
                      3. naidas
                        naidas 9 September 2019 19: 39
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        TWO full France

                        Well, compare the entire territory of French territory, in North Africa, French Indochina.
                      4. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 10 September 2019 09: 45
                        -1
                        Quote: naidas
                        Well, compare the entire territory of French territory, in North Africa, French Indochina.


                        1. Then what the WRONG you write above:
                        ended on 22.06.40. By this time most of its territory was occupied
                        and?
                        2. there, in Indochina. was .. war? belay
                        3. In the USSR, what was "Indochina" - Siberia, Far East? lol
                      5. naidas
                        naidas 10 September 2019 14: 42
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        In the USSR, what was "Indochina" - Siberia, Far East?

                        Do you deny that Indochina was then French territory?
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        there in indochina. was .. war?

                        And yes, the colonies also went to war.
                        Within a few hours, most of the French units either surrendered or were completely defeated. Separate units and scattered groups of soldiers and officers who managed to break out of the encirclement on the night of March 10 soon surrendered, as they did not have ammunition. Only a few of them (about 5 thousand people) under the command of General E. Alexandri managed to break into China.
                        Again, a few hours of battle was enough.
                        Yes, one episode of the transfer of the fleet to the Germans, the Bolsheviks, in principle, this was not possible.
                      6. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 10 September 2019 07: 47
                        0
                        The only difference is that France lost the war. But the Soviet Union, the war with which, according to German (and not only German) specialists was to be an easy walk compared to the French campaign, won.
                      7. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 10 September 2019 09: 50
                        -2
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        The only difference is that France is at war lost. But the Soviet Union, the war with which, according to German (and not only German) specialists was to be an easy walk compared to the French campaign, won.

                        You do not know this either: France is also the WINNER in WWII, and with casualties in the service station (!) Times smaller than the USSR.
                      8. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 10 September 2019 13: 09
                        0
                        What a conversation! The Germans did not know until the last minute that they had lost THIS either. fool
                      9. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 10 September 2019 13: 49
                        -1
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        What a conversation! The Germans did not know until the last minute that they had lost THIS either.

                        Spit on the Germans: you look at the RESULT!
                        Who does not win? fool
                      10. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 10 September 2019 17: 05
                        0
                        I look at the result. But not only to the surface, but also to the root too, a liar. Your portrait: fool very handy!
                      11. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 10 September 2019 19: 34
                        -1
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        I look at the result. But not only to the surface, but also to root also

                        It can be seen what a "korehn", you saw. lol laughing

                        Who won, I ask, isn’t there? belay
                    4. svp67
                      svp67 9 September 2019 09: 53
                      +1
                      Quote: Hunghouse
                      Yes, the organization simply defeated tactical skill and courage. Not in the first)

                      Excuse me, but you wishful thinking. Not only the organization, but also the tactical, and most importantly the strategic skill of the Reds was higher, and the courage was not to occupy both countries.
                      Quote: Hunghouse
                      And the ratio of combat and rear is not in favor of the Reds.

                      Again, you present your DESIRED as real, thanks to the mobilization of RIA officers in the Red Army, if less, then not by many, but what was in it there were many "nuggets" from the people, whose natural talent, in the military sphere, recognized them "visa-a-vi" from the White Army.
                      1. Adjutant
                        Adjutant 9 September 2019 21: 10
                        0
                        Matter from the people? And White had plenty.
                        And the former Cossack General Toporkov and many others?
                        And the front-line soldiers of the WWII comfrey had more of it. Honghouse is right
                      2. svp67
                        svp67 9 September 2019 21: 15
                        0
                        Quote: Adjutant
                        And the front-line soldiers of the WWII comfrey had more of it.

                        And how did it help them?
                  2. Sugar Honeyovich
                    Sugar Honeyovich 8 September 2019 17: 41
                    +1
                    Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                    Zhukov, Vasilevsky, Malinovsky, Rokossovsky

                    Of these four, only Vasilevsky was the tsarist officer. In general, of those who commanded the fronts in the WWII, tsarist officers made up 40%. Only Chernyakhovsky did not participate in either the MV or the civilian - by age. The rest are all civilian participants, of which a maximum of five were ordinary Red Army soldiers or junior commanders.
                  3. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 9 September 2019 09: 39
                    -4
                    Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                    Zhukov, Vasilevsky, Malinovsky, Rokossovsky and others, other others

                    Some HUNDRED officers - from Hundreds of thousands RI officers.
                    horrific figure.
            2. Olgovich
              Olgovich 8 September 2019 11: 24
              -7
              Quote: Hunghouse
              But those who skillfully fight in wars with an external adversary are not suitable for a civil war.

              With much less resources of the occupied territory and the number of troops, the whites, however, fought on equal terms with the Reds for two years. And their losses were about 4 times lessthan theirs.
              These, I think, are signs of mastery.
            3. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 8 September 2019 17: 03
              +1
              Quote: Hunghouse
              Because it happened

              And if it were the other way around, in the Reds - the front-line soldiers, in the White - the rear-line officers and staff officers - would the White win?
        2. Kronos
          Kronos 8 September 2019 11: 17
          +5
          Are you a monarchist in the courses that in Operation Trust the best British agent was neutralized?
        3. Moskovit
          Moskovit 8 September 2019 12: 12
          +10
          Funny again. Sharkuns defeated experienced combat officers. Now is not the time of the ancient world when quantity conquered quality. The rear rats and deserters sitting in the rear defeated the real soldiers. Arithmetic does not converge.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 8 September 2019 12: 52
            -7
            Quote: Moskovit
            Funny again. Sharkuns defeated experienced combat officers. Now is not the time of the ancient world when quantity conquered quality. The rear rats and deserters sitting in the rear defeated the real soldiers. Arithmetic does not converge.

            belay The arithmetic is simple and everything converges: if White had the same resources as the Reds, there would be no wet spot from those.

            Denikin about France: “We didn't get real help from her: neither solid diplomatic support, nor credit, nor supply. ”
            From England, a little more, thanks to Churchill, whom Lloyd George, in the end, also pressed.

            And without resources, with small forces, skilled warriors beat the Reds, quite on the level.
            Those- failed, yes ....

            And these "cunning" cowards who tried to sit out in the rear of the Great War and for this overthrew the legitimate government were awaited, nevertheless, an unenviable punishing fate-death at the front of a civil massacre and the subsequent wild Middle Ages (survivors).

            And a pack ... the shufflers, practically, EVERYONE, received well-deserved bullets from "comrades in the fight" - a shameful end to them and .. to their families ...
            1. Moskovit
              Moskovit 8 September 2019 13: 10
              +10
              Clear. 30% of the Russian officer who fought on the side of the Reds, cowards, traitors, sharkuns. All these bloated gentlemen of St. George. Continue to live in the world of elves, where the white wars of light nearly defeated the red monsters. Ignore the facts of the economic and political decay of then-Russia. The current government also begins to move along the tsar’s knurled track. All who are against, traitors and agents of the State Department.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 8 September 2019 13: 42
                -10
                Quote: Moskovit
                Clear. 30% of the Russian officer who fought on the side of the Reds, cowards, traitors, sharkuns. All these bloated gentlemen of St. George.

                Leave this tone: there were, of course, those who sincerely sided with the Reds (the overwhelming minority), were defrauded (supposedly called up for protection against external aggression, the same Veil), the majority were forcibly called up by the military registration and enlistment offices according to their lists, which fell into the hands of the Reds. Which, in addition, in the red country, dying of hunger and the inability to earn a living, was left with a choice: either to die with hunger, without rights, without rations, or to join the army, i.e. to do what they could- and save the family.
                The choice was not easy. ... But, almost everyone who decided to go, all the same finished very badly ..
                Quote: Moskovit
                Continue to live in the world of elves, where the white wars of light nearly defeated the red monsters.

                request
                Quote: Moskovit
                Ignore the facts of economic and political decomposition then Russia.

                What are you talking about BAD, huh? There was an unprecedented WORLD WAR in history: according to hardships, cruelty, losses. ALL states swayed, it was impossible to hit in the back.
                And the economic "razrazheniya" level of Russia in 1913 for the consumption of food and clothing, your non-monsters were able to reach only after .... FORTY YEARS-after the "battles" for bread and garlic.
                I am generally silent about the political "revival" after the VOR: the Middle Ages is resting
                Quote: Moskovit
                The current government also begins to move along the tsar’s knurled track. All who are against, traitors and agents of the State Department.

                the authorities say something else: Who is against-CHOOSE YOURSELF YOU WANT, and HOW MUCH you want, but according to the Law! .
                Unless, of course, enough brains and strength.
            2. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 8 September 2019 17: 05
              +3
              Quote: Olgovich
              if White had the same resources as the Reds,

              Quote: Olgovich
              Denikin about France: “We did not receive real help from her:

              Quote: Olgovich
              From England, a little more

              Why France, why England? Why not Russia?
            3. naidas
              naidas 8 September 2019 17: 32
              +2
              Quote: Olgovich
              if white had the same resources

              They had a resource since February 1917, ineptly squandered unlike the Reds.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 9 September 2019 10: 04
                -2
                Quote: naidas
                They had a resource since February 1917, ineptly squandered unlike the Reds.

                They defended the Fatherland at the front from the German-Turkish invaders, unlike the Swiss foreign tourists. beer that was thrilling at this time in Geneva.
                They had no time to fight for power, the ENEMY at the gate!
    3. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 8 September 2019 11: 27
      0
      Quote: Olgovich
      all cavaliers of the Order of St. George ..
      Real patriots of Russia

      As well as Gittis and Lazarevich, Reliable and Chernavin, Parsky and Podgursky.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 8 September 2019 11: 54
        -5
        Quote: Sahar Medovich
        As well as Gittis and Lazarevich, Reliable and Chernavin,

        These are their "comrades in the fight" awarded more prison and bullet-. yes

        By the way, by the way. Do you agree? yes
        1. Sugar Honeyovich
          Sugar Honeyovich 8 September 2019 17: 10
          +1
          I do not agree. As well as the fact that twice or two is forty.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 9 September 2019 10: 07
            -2
            Quote: Sahar Medovich
            I do not agree.

            You do not agree. With .... STALIN justice ?! am This, you know, goes beyond all .... lol
            Maybe you also agree with the renegade Khrushchev, who rehabilitated them? belay
            1. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 10 September 2019 07: 50
              0
              Quote: Olgovich
              You do not agree. With .... STALIN justice ?! This, you know, goes beyond all limits ..

              And, actually, why? Stalin himself did not agree with "Stalinist justice" ...
              On the other hand, whites, too, used to be awarded bullets, so now ...
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 10 September 2019 09: 57
                -1
                Quote: Sahar Medovich
                And, actually, why? Stalin himself did not agree with "Stalinist justice" ...

                С millions of sentencing, was the case, do not agree? fool lol
                Quote: Sahar Medovich
                On the other hand, his whites, too, used to be awarded bullets, so now ..

                Directly, after all, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS in a year shot? recourse
                You carrots with a finger, are you confused? lol
                1. Sugar Honeyovich
                  Sugar Honeyovich 10 September 2019 17: 09
                  -1
                  It was, of course. Well-known fact.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Directly, after all, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS in a year shot?

                  His compatriots - yes. And they just couldn't do it anymore - their hands were shortened. And that would not have rusted behind them. The breed is like that.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 10 September 2019 19: 29
                    -1
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    It was, of course. Well-known fact.

                    Liar - bring this "fact"
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    His compatriots - yes. And they just couldn't do it anymore - their hands were shortened. And that would not have rusted behind them. The breed is like that.

                    White whites did not shoot, but the red ones destroyed each other en masse, with animal cruelty, with hatred, LADIES! yes
                    And after Gr. massacres CONTINUED traditions both in relation to theirs (which is wonderful) and in relation to the People (which is disgusting. The breed is such.
                    And the white ones did not show themselves ANYWHERE ANYWHERE: neither the exiles of millions of peasants, nor the executions of several HUNDREDS of thousands of their CITIZENS during the year, nor MILLIONS who died a terrible death from starvation are all YOUR achievements. angry
  3. Hunghuz
    Hunghuz 8 September 2019 11: 01
    -7
    Ulagaevsky landing is a very interesting military operation. Remained in the shadow in the background of the battle for the Crimea, but showed the ability of white armies to carry out landing operations of any difficulty level.
    Led by prominent military leaders
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      Edward Vashchenko 8 September 2019 15: 26
      +6
      Led by prominent military leaders

      Not a correct definition - just good commanders, at best, that's all.
      I don’t want to run ahead of the author, it will be continued ... but the landing of these "outstanding leaders" began on August 9 - 25 - ended. They completely failed him.
      Just in the middle of summer, General Kutepov informed Wrangel about the complete destruction of the personnel, low cultural level, officers sent from the rear, etc. Source: Archive of the Russian Revolution. Ed. Hesse I.V. T.5.
      General thought: the whites did not have outstanding commanders, as indeed during the PVM in the RIA: bold, dashing, heroic officers - for sure, but outstanding military commanders - did not have a word at all.
      Do not confuse courage and leadership talent.
      1. Adjutant
        Adjutant 8 September 2019 16: 44
        -2
        August 9 began - 25 - ended.

        Yes, I don’t want to run in. But it ended well.
        For all their resources, the Reds could not do anything with him.
        Competently landed, implemented and filmed.
        И
        Babiev, Ulagay, Kazanovich - yes, outstanding generals
        1. naidas
          naidas 8 September 2019 18: 00
          +2
          Quote: Adjutant
          Yes, I don’t want to run in. But it ended well.

          Yes, the evacuation of the dissatisfied with the Reds turned out, but the task was different, intercepting the strategic initiative from the Bolsheviks.
          1. Adjutant
            Adjutant 9 September 2019 21: 07
            +2
            I'm about the tactics of the paratroopers
            The landing party came and went. And it was not destroyed in spite of the balance of forces in favor of the Reds and those minus signs, with which you endow me with enviable tenacity))
            1. naidas
              naidas 10 September 2019 14: 48
              0
              Do slander, minuses are not mine, try not to put, although it happens.
              Read Wrangel, he rated it as a failure.
              1. Adjutant
                Adjutant 10 September 2019 17: 59
                +1
                For libel criminalized, is not it?))
                And what do we have Wrangel measuring all the measures? The Soviets lament that the landing party fought, safely left and was not destroyed.
                That is - a competent organization. Compare with other landings)
                1. naidas
                  naidas 11 September 2019 19: 17
                  0
                  Quote: Adjutant
                  For libel criminalized, is not it?))

                  It is up to the court to decide, not me or you.
                  Quote: Adjutant
                  And what do we have Wrangel measuring all the measures?

                  In this situation, Wrangel’s actions led to at least some kind of result. While Ulagay got stuck, Babichev’s success was coordinated.
                  Quote: Adjutant
                  The Soviets lament that the landing party fought, safely left and was not destroyed.

                  Yes, no one is lamenting, just another stone in the destruction of the Cossacks as enemies of the Soviets, at the same time and that the Crimea must be finished.
                  Quote: Adjutant
                  That is - a competent organization.

                  Well, yes, someone wrote about the Russian corps in France, heroism, and under machine gun fire to the thorn and back, three times in October, 300 dead.
            2. naidas
              naidas 10 September 2019 16: 12
              0
              Here is what ordinary mortals expected from this operation: ... They say that in the first snow we will be in Kharkov, as if Romania had declared war on the Bolsheviks, as if the path was open to Moscow itself, as if Wrangel had said that we would winter in Ukraine, even almost in Moscow itself ...
              By the way, reading memoirs and diaries I came across Oleinikov from Kerch, maybe a relative of the author?
        2. Edward Vashchenko
          Edward Vashchenko 8 September 2019 18: 05
          +3
          The evacuation was led by Quartermaster General G. Konovalov personally, while at the General Headquarters. While settling, the latter was actually suspended for non-compliance with the Headquarters installations, as a result of which the Reds cut off the landing from its main base in Primorsky-Akhtyrsk.
          The head of the headquarters Dratsenko removed.
          The same applies to Babichev, stupidly advancing, which led to the possibility on the part of the Reds to deliver a flank strike.
          Of the units of courageously fighting junkers, more than 80% died.
          The landing party did not fulfill any tasks set by the Headquarters.
          These are such outstanding commanders.
          Sincerely.
      2. Ryaruav
        Ryaruav 8 September 2019 17: 58
        -4
        Edward, what can you say about Brusilov, Admiral Essen, simply Soviet historiography hid the names of the heroes of the First World War for which they paid in 1990
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          Edward Vashchenko 8 September 2019 19: 20
          +5
          Dear Ryaruav, no one was silent about anything, about the Brusilov breakthrough was in all Soviet textbooks. Moreover, Brusilov went over to the side of Soviet power. About Essen was not - right.
          But that’s all.
          By the way, in the university textbooks for historians about WWI everything was described in detail and in detail, no gaps.
          6 unfortunately for people of other specialties, this story was not readily available, but somehow lost - it’s a shame somehow. So they didn’t shout from all crossroads, they couldn’t bring up fighters in the PMR, especially since there were already heroes of the Second World War.
          Constantly "teach": junior officers up to division commander - nothing, and above - a complete disaster. It's not comme il faut wink
          Sincerely.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 9 September 2019 10: 10
            -3
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            Brusilov went over to the side of Soviet power.

            Yeah, they trusted already .... check the teeth of horses lol (beginning. Pre-conscription training of cavalrymen).
            Shame ...
            Although, he deserved it completely.
            Sorry until 1937 did not reach ....
    2. naidas
      naidas 8 September 2019 17: 55
      0
      A failed operation, after cleansing the Cossacks, the Reds have a whole army in the rear.
      Wrangel about this operation:
      Do not stop General Ulagay, move on without looking back at the base, in two days Ekaterinodar would fall and the northern Kuban would be cleared ...
      Although one can argue with the lower comet - General Babiev - for example, if they had not stopped, the operation could have looked different.
  4. naidas
    naidas 8 September 2019 17: 35
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    beat in the back, it was impossible.

    Yes, you can’t be stabbed in the back, but can you change the government during the war?
    Interestingly, if Stalin was replaced at the end of 1941, the USSR would benefit from this?
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 9 September 2019 10: 17
      -1
      Quote: naidas
      Yes, you can’t be stabbed in the back, but can you change the government during the war?

      Not good. But the continuity and legitimacy of power was ensured, despite the F. revolution
      Quote: naidas
      Interestingly, if Stalin was replaced at the end of 1941, the USSR would benefit from this?

      Do you think that, if you knew the truth and had the opportunity to vote, the people would forgive VKPBe Vyazma, Kiev, Uman, millions of prisoners and victims? I don’t think so. There would be no trace of them.
      1. naidas
        naidas 9 September 2019 19: 31
        0
        Quote: Olgovich
        you think

        But didn’t they know that the armies were surrounded? To vote during the war, I wonder where such thoughts came from? Just like the temporary ones attacked by voting. For the dead they avenged and betrayed, as it always did.
        Quote: Olgovich
        But the continuity and legitimacy of power was ensured, despite the F. revolution

        and by October, the legitimacy had exhausted itself — to shoot street demonstrations, to wish war against the will of the people — very acceptably and legitimized, which gave rise to the influence of the Bolsheviks.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 10 September 2019 10: 07
          -2
          Quote: naidas
          And they didn’t know that the armies в окружении ?

          NO, of course did not know !. Like MILLIONS of prisoners and MILLION losses. What's wrong with you? belay
          Quote: naidas
          Vote during the war, I wonder where such thoughts come from? Just like the temporary

          You were answered by your own HYPOTHETIC question:
          I wonder if Stalin was replaced in late 1941

          And they would have taken off, knowing the scale of the catastrophe. What is Stalin CAM recognized in 1945 г
          Quote: naidas
          and by October legitimacy has exhausted itself-shoot street demonstrations, wish war against the will of the people, -very accepting and legitimate, which gave rise to the influence of the Bolsheviks.

          Nonsense that confirmed the only free elections in the CSSwhere the Bolsheviks were completely oblivious.
          This is objective indicator, not your propogandhotelki
          1. naidas
            naidas 10 September 2019 14: 30
            -1
            Quote: Olgovich
            Nonsense, which was confirmed by the only free elections in the CSS

            in Petrograd, about 930 thousand people participated in the elections, 45% of the vote was cast for the Bolsheviks, 27% for the Cadets, and 17% for the Socialist Revolutionaries. In Moscow, the Bolsheviks received 48%. The army also provided significant support to the Bolsheviks: on the Northern Front they received 56% of the vote, on the Western Front - 67%; in the Baltic Fleet - 58,2%; in 20 districts of the northwestern and central industrial regions of the Bolsheviks, a total of 53,1% supported voters.
            Russians and Russia voted for the Bolsheviks.
            Quote: Olgovich
            This is an objective indicator, not your propogandhotels.

            Yes, with the Caucasus and other suburbs, the Bolsheviks were completely overthrown, the suburbs were already building their states. (Thanks to the temporary ones).
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 10 September 2019 14: 46
              -1
              Quote: naidas
              in Petrograd, about 930 thousand people participated in the elections, 45% of the vote was cast for the Bolsheviks, 27% for the Cadets, and 17% for the Socialist Revolutionaries. In Moscow, the Bolsheviks received 48%. The army also provided significant support to the Bolsheviks: on the Northern Front they received 56% of the vote, on the Western Front - 67%; in the Baltic Fleet - 58,2%; in 20 districts of the northwestern and central industrial regions of the Bolsheviks, a total of 53,1% supported voters.
              Russians and Russia voted for the Bolsheviks.

              leave these propaganda for yours: peasantry and kazachestvo, intelligence, and this overwhelming the country's population was sent to the Bolsheviks. 3% of workers are dust.
              Quote: naidas
              Yes, with the Caucasus and other suburbs, the Bolsheviks were completely overthrown, the suburbs were already building their states. (Thanks to the temporary ones).

              Go to school and find out WHEN they announced the independence of the outskirts and WHO invited them to do it. At the same time, open TODAY a map of Russia and its neighbors: YOU made all these borders of the 17th century.
              1. naidas
                naidas 11 September 2019 18: 59
                -1
                Quote: Olgovich
                leave these propaganda for your own: PEASANTY and COSSACKS, INTELLIGENCE, and this overwhelming number of the country's population was sent to the Bolsheviks. 3% of workers are dust.
                And where did your overwhelming number of people go in 1921?
                Quote: Olgovich
                Go to school and find out WHEN they announced the independence of the outskirts and WHO invited them to do it.

                At the same time you will find out what the outskirts did for a united and independent Russia.
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 12 September 2019 09: 13
                  -1
                  Quote: naidas
                  And where did your overwhelming number of people go in 1921?

                  Everything is in place. In addition to 10 million victims of your gr. slaughter. And what?
                  Quote: naidas
                  At the same time you will find out what the outskirts did for a united and independent Russia.

                  again not in Russian ..... request What are you speaking about?!
                  1. naidas
                    naidas 15 September 2019 13: 56
                    -1
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    At the same time, you will find out what the outskirts did for a single and independent Russia. Again, not in Russian ..... What are you talking about ?!

                    About the dreamer Olgovich, where the numbers voted, the center of Russia and the troops provided you.
                    And who sent the Bolsheviks and what did they do for a united Russia?
                    What in the last question is not in Russian?
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 16 September 2019 08: 31
                      0
                      Quote: naidas
                      About the dreamer Olgovich, where the numbers voted, the center of Russia and the troops provided you.

                      Who needs a CHAPTER?
                      Romanian front - 15% of the Bolsheviks. The Caucasian front-the Bolsheviks did not pass at all, Black Sea Fleet-20%.
                      Center of Russia, you say, ignoramus?
                      Learn:

                      In territorial districts best of all for the Bolsheviks the Baltic states voted: in the Estland district (northern part of modern Estonia) they were almost 2 times ahead of the representatives of national parties, and in the Livland district (within the modern borders - the south of Estonia and the north of Latvia) they even broke the record - almost 72% of the votes. You are good ... "Russia"! lol

                      The largest districts where the Bolsheviks were sent to: Ural, Vologda, Olonets, Tobolsk, Volga, New Russia, in Siberia-Not Russia already?
                      Quote: naidas
                      And who sent the Bolsheviks and what did they do for a united Russia?
                      What in the last question is not in Russian?

                      The Russian people sent: out of 48 million who voted for the Bolsheviks, as many as 10,5 million voted.
                      1. naidas
                        naidas 18 September 2019 18: 29
                        -1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Romanian Front- 15% Blasheviks

                        Shcherbachev was able to oppose the new government, as he had the Romanian armies and Ukrainian nationalists. The commissars invited the Bolsheviks to create a united front-line military revolution committee, which would include representatives of all the democratic organizations of the front, which, of course, gave an advantage to the Socialist-Revolutionaries, Mensheviks, and representatives of the Central Council. Moreover, the commissioners set the recognition of SNK authorities only on the territory of Russia itself, but not Ukraine, as an indispensable condition for their entry into this body. So, Olgovich, you separated Ukraine from Russia, for the Bolsheviks this was not acceptable.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        The Caucasian front-Bolsheviks did not pass at all

                        Bullshit, where did the data on the Caucasus Front come from? 18% went to the constituent assembly.
                        At the congress, a new Regional Council of the Caucasian Army was elected consisting of 100 people, 52 of them from the left bloc (Bolsheviks and left Social Revolutionaries) and 48 people from the right bloc (Mensheviks, right Social Revolutionaries and representatives of national parties). Political opponents of the Bolsheviks, mainly from among local nationalists. (These are Olgovich’s guardians of Russia). Bloody clashes took place at the stations of Shamkhor, Akstafa, Tauz, Yevlakh, Zazaly and other places. As a result, about two thousand soldiers died and several thousand were injured only at the Shamkhor station. At the same time, armed groups of Caucasian nationalists (Georgian Mensheviks, Armenian Dashnaks, Azerbaijani Musavatists) captured over 30 guns, about 100 machine guns and 12 thousand rifles. With the departure of the main forces of the Caucasian army to Russia, the Transcaucasian Commissariat issued an order on the arrest of S. G. Shaumyan and other leaders of the Bolsheviks.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        the Baltics voted best of all for the Bolsheviks, with almost 72% of the votes. You are good ... "Russia"! :

                        it was the Bolsheviks who were ahead of the nationalists of the Baltic states. -confirm the same.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Black Sea Fleet-20%.

                        They didn’t know about the Bolsheviks there. You already wrote about the Bolshevik horrors in Sevastopol, which (the Bolsheviks) really weren’t there. As always, there were horrors, but look for the facts yourself and in the bushes.
                        And why don’t bring from your source, Olgovich don’t be modest that the Bolsheviks were not supported by the national suburbs - in many provinces of Ukraine, in Transcaucasia, Central Asia, in the Kazan and Ufa provinces, nationalist, bourgeois and petty-bourgeois parties took precedence.
                        Let us give examples of how the nationalities supported the unity of Russia or, as always, weakened.
                      2. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 19 September 2019 07: 06
                        0
                        Quote: naidas
                        So Olgovich, you separated it turns out Ukraine from Russia, for the Bolsheviks it was unacceptably.

                        Rave, as always:
                        December 3, 1917: we, Council of People's Commissars, Recognize the People's Ukrainian Republicher right is perfect secede from Russia
                        They separated. Such are the fighters for the One. See, by the way, in the WINDOW-to which they reached the borders of the 17th century
                        Returning to the topic: the army sent the Bolsheviks to the Rum Front, the commissar who killed Dukhonin-shot.
                        Quote: naidas
                        Bullshit, where did the data on the Caucasus Front come from? 18% went to the constituent assembly.

                        Fig there:
                        on the Southwestern Front, their list received 30%, on the Romanian - 15%, and on the Caucasian Bolsheviks did not even put up their list. In the Black Sea Fleet, the Bolshevik Party received 20%. https://www.vedomosti.ru/opinion/articles/2017/11/27/743144-vibrala-rossiya,

                        Learn!
                        Quote: naidas
                        it was the Bolsheviks who were ahead of the nationalists of the Baltic states. -confirm the same.

                        I confirm that the outskirts - Voted FOR the Bolsheviks and - their independence: the Bolsheviks recognized the Latvian Independent Republic and est, too
                        Quote: naidas
                        They did not know about the Bolsheviks there.

                        ignoramus, to school: in December the city of Sevastopol is Bolshevik, and during his time the extermination and mass murder of officers was carried out, read "the fight against Bolshevism"
                        Quote: naidas
                        that the Bolsheviks were not supported by the national suburbs — in many provinces of Ukraine, in Transcaucasia, in Central Asia, in the Kazan and Ufa provinces, nationalist, bourgeois and petty-bourgeois parties took precedence.

                        Bourgeois is this such a beast? belay This is a CITIZEN of the country. And they sent to the Bolsheviks
                        Quote: naidas
                        Let us give examples of how the nationalities supported the unity of Russia or, as always, weakened.

                        Almost nat. the outskirts before the VOR advocated UNITY of Russia; no one advocated Independence. You don't know that either?
                      3. naidas
                        naidas 21 September 2019 17: 16
                        -1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        They separated.

                        Yeah, your fighters for a single and indivisible Russia in Ukraine:
                        July 18 Rada "Fundamentals of Interim Administration in Ukraine":
                        The General Secretariat was declared the supreme authority, to which all local authorities should report.
                        in September 1917 published the Declaration of the Secretary General:
                        granted the right to appoint and remove military ranks in military districts on the territory of Ukraine.
                        So recognized not recognized, but before the Thief in Ukraine, their government and army.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        https://www.vedomosti.ru/opinion/articles/2017/11/27/743144-vibrala-rossiya,

                        Page not found.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Fig there:

                        Read by syllables, since you completely cannot:
                        So, on the Northern and Western fronts, the Bolsheviks won 56% and 67% of the vote, respectively, on the South-Western front - only 31% of the vote, and on the Romanian and Caucasian fronts and even less - 15% and 18% votes accordingly
                        https://military.wikireading.ru/65974
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        in December, the City Council of Sevastopol-Bolshevik

                        Yeah, so Bolshevik that the Bolsheviks withdrew from the Executive Committee of the Council on 13.12.17.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        the cutting and mass murder of officers was carried out, read "the fight against Bolshevism"

                        Bullshit, no examples. You take the anarchists for the Bolsheviks. You already wrote about this, again, breach.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        This is a CITIZEN of the country. And they sent to the Bolsheviks

                        Yeah, the nationalists are citizens of Russia, yeah.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        practically nat. the outskirts before the VOR advocated UNITY of Russia; no one advocated Independence. You don't know that either?

                        Don't know where the examples are?
                      4. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 22 September 2019 10: 26
                        0
                        Quote: naidas
                        July 18 Rada "Fundamentals of Interim Administration in Ukraine":
                        The General Secretariat was declared the supreme authority, to which all local authorities should report.
                        in September 1917 published the Declaration of the Secretary General:
                        granted the right to appoint and remove military ranks in military districts on the territory of Ukraine.
                        So recognized not recognized, but before the thief in Ukraine their government and army.

                        Only in the inflamed minds of some.

                        But what happened according to the FACT, they write themselves UK.ry, namely Svidomo UKRO.HISTORIC Savchenko: "Before the thief, power in Ukraine belonged to the INTERIM GOVERNMENT."
                        Quote: naidas
                        Page not found.

                        Lying.
                        Quote: naidas
                        Read by syllables, since you completely cannot:
                        So, on the Northern and Western fronts, the Bolsheviks won 56% and 67% of the vote, respectively, on the South-Western front - only 31% of the vote, and on the Romanian and Caucasian fronts even less - 15% and 18% of the vote, respectively
                        https://military.wikireading.ru/65974

                        Just do not shove me the so-called "stories" owls "historians" who had no famine of 1933 AT ALL.
                        Quote: naidas
                        Yeah, so Bolshevik that the Bolsheviks withdrew from the Executive Committee of the Council on 13.12.17.

                        We open TSB and get enlightened:
                        В December 1917 years after returning from the Don Bolshevized sailors the detachments sent there at the call of the Council of People's Commissars to combat counter-revolution, the Bolsheviks overthrew the former composition of the Sevastopol Council and appointed new re-elections, as a result of which the majority in the new composition of the Council passed to them.
                        Quote: naidas
                        Bullshit, no examples. You take the anarchists for the Bolsheviks. You already wrote about this, again, breach.

                        These Bolshevik sailors, after they buried their “brothers-in-arms” killed by people on the Don, and staged a BATTLE and slaughter of Russian officers.
                        Quote: naidas
                        Aha nationalists -citizens of Russia, yeah.

                        No, they are citizens, and, moreover, honorary, USSR: UK.RONAZIST Hrushevsky, Vinnichenko, and thousands more smaller Nazis, were implementing a plan to transform the Russians in Little Russia into non-Russians. With success, as we see today.
                        Quote: naidas
                        Don't know where the examples are?

                        NOT ONE independence from Russia to the Thief, EVERYTHING is only AFTER,
                        This is just a fact.
                      5. naidas
                        naidas 22 September 2019 18: 09
                        -1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        namely Svidomo uk.roISTORIK Savchenko: "Before the thief, power in Ukraine belonged to the INTERIM GOVERNMENT."

                        This is in the book of Victor Savchenko “Twelve Wars for Ukraine”:
                        It is precisely so many battles that took place in 1917–1922 that the author considers, linking them with the desire of the Ukrainian people for state independence.
                        Olgovich may be enough to make fun of. Your Ukrainian writer writes about the weakness of the Provisional Government and the desire of the Ukrainian people for state independence.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        These Bolshevik sailors, after they buried their “brothers-in-arms” killed by people on the Don, and staged a BATTLE and slaughter of Russian officers.

                        Well, yes, the last time they lied and could not give an example of the massacre of officers by the Bolsheviks, and now you are lying (without examples it does not count).
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        No, they are citizens, and honorable, moreover, the USSR: UKRAC Nazist Grushevsky, Vinnichenko and thousands more smaller Nazis, implemented a plan to turn Russians into Little Russia into non-Russians.

                        Thank you to the kings priests, thank you for creating the problem. Kiev censor in 1912. He warned about the dangers of indulging the Ukrainians. The Bolsheviks agreed with them, there were more important tasks than another struggle — the economy, the borders, the army.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        None of the independence from Russia to the Thief, ALL-only AFTER, It's just a fact.

                        Yes, a fact, but here are some examples of how these independence helped Russia?
                        You pretend that Austria-Hungary took 70 years to destroy. And in Russia, do you think that the collapse did not occur before the Bolsheviks? Naive Olgovich, the Bolsheviks came, whom nobody knew for half a year and destroyed everything. Peter Nikolayevich Durnovo wrote back in February 1914. Nicholas 2 when entering the war- "... Germany and Russia will be destroyed, and all the benefits will be received by the geopolitical opponents of Russia and Germany - England and France, as well as the United States, which later joined them ..."
                        And here are your facts:

                      6. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 23 September 2019 09: 33
                        0
                        Quote: naidas
                        Olgovich may be enough to make fun of. Your Ukrainian writer writes about the weakness of the Provisional Government and the desire of the Ukrainian people for state independence.

                        He cites simply a fact. And it is especially valuable in that it comes from the UK.
                        Quote: naidas
                        Well, yes, the last time they lied and could not give an example of the massacre of officers by the Bolsheviks, and now you are lying (without examples it does not count).

                        It has already been proved to you that it was the Bolsheviks who seized power in the city and the killer sailors were Bolsheviks.
                        Those. it was with great power that the massacre occurred. It happened in retaliation for the punishers destroyed in the Don, who were buried the day before.

                        Your ignorance and engagement are amazing :. "enjoy what YOURS did with the heroes of Trapenzund, Varna and the Bosphorus, who are IN SERVICE to the Motherland:
                        Fleet commissioner V.V. Romenets received a telegram from the Bolshevik Council of People's Commissars: "Act with all decisiveness against the enemies of the people ... Negotiations by the leaders of the counter-revolutionary uprising are certainly prohibited." The massacre of officers, which began the next day, shocked the whole Crimea with its cruelty.

                        On December 15 (28), 1917, the sailors of the Gadzhibey destroyer, by order of the Black Sea Fleet Commissioner V.V. Romenets, arrested six of the seven officers of their crew (including the commander of the destroyer captain, XNUMXnd rank V.M. Pyshnov) as “counterrevolutionaries” and took them to Sevastopol prison, wanting to hand them over "under arrest." The prison administration refused to accept unauthorized "prisoners." Then the officers were taken to Malakhov Kurgan and all were shot. That same night there were Rear Admiral M. I. Kaskov, Chief of Staff of the Black Sea Fleet Commander, was shot, the chief commander of the Sevastopol port, Vice Admiral P.I. Novitsky, the head of the Jung school Rear Admiral A.I. Alexandrov, the chairman of the Sevastopol Naval Court, Lieutenant General Yu.E. Ketritz, captains of the first rank I.S. Kuznetsov ( former commander of the battleship “Empress Maria”) and A. Yu. Svinin (commander of the vessel “Orion”), senior mechanical engineer lieutenant E. G. Tomasevich, hold mechanical engineer second-lieutenant N. A. Dybenko, inspector midshipman N. A. Iodkovsky. The Fidonisi destroyer team also acted with their officers (in particular, the mine officer Lieutenant P.N. Kondrashin died).

                        That nightl hunting for officers went all over the city, but especially in the area of ​​Chesmenskaya and Sobornaya streets, on which many officers' apartments were traditionally located, as well as at the station from where officers tried to escape from Sevastopol. An eyewitness of events recalled the events of the evening of December 15 (28), 1917:

                        We rushed to the balcony and were definitely certain that the shooting was going on in all parts of the city ...
                        The whole small station square was completely littered with a crowd of sailors ... continuous shots were heard, wild swearing shook the air, fists flickered, bayonets, butts ... Someone shouted: "spare, brothers, darlings" ... someone wheezed, someone was beaten, corpses were lying around. - in a word, the picture illuminated by the station lights was terrible ...
                        Sevastopol Council slave. dep. deliberately inactive. People fled there, famous revolutionaries fled, prayed, asked, demanded help, stopped the killings, in one word of the Council, but the Council was silent: now it was actually led by a certain Ostrovskaya, the mastermind of the killings.
                        Volkov S.V. The tragedy of Russian officers

                        The beast ....
                        Quote: naidas
                        Thank you to the kings priests, thank you for creating the problem. Kiev censor in 1912. warned of the dangers of indulging Ukrainians. Bolsheviks We agreed with them, there were more important tasks than another struggle - the economy, borders, the army.

                        When priests, no "Ukraine" and did not stink. Created and recognized by Ukraine-YOU.
                        Grushevsky Nazis in the power-put you. Conducted a wild FORCED Ukrainization Russian-YOU.
                        These are just FACTS.
                        Quote: naidas
                        Yes, a fact, but here are some examples of how these independence helped Russia?

                        Oh, they admitted, however, the evidence: ALL independence is AFTER the thief and on its basis.
                        Naturally, they did not help Russia in any way. So the Bolsheviks didn’t give a damn about it, their world revolution was of interest.
                        Quote: naidas
                        Naive Olgovich, the Bolsheviks came, whom no one had really known for six months and destroyed everything.

                        Yes, tell us how the "forest brothers" of the Baltic countries fought underground under the tsar, what mass demonstrations in support of the independence of Belarus were held in Minsk, etc. Come on! lol
                        Not in half a year the Bolsheviks destroyed united Russia, but for TEN years: inventing “peoples”, their “nnye“ histories, ”“ cultures. ”From a part of the Russian people, the Little Russians, yours came up with a separate people.
                        Cutting off from Russia 5 million km2 from Russia, in just 23 years, and intensively creating anti-Russia on them.
                        Quote: naidas
                        Yes and here are your facts

                        Save me from stupid UNLIMITED agitators: for starters, remember that
                        in February 17, no "Latvians" and "Lithuanians" existed in nature.
                        And so, for each item.
                        Your total "achievements" -Russia is aging, with a density-LESS than in the Republic of Ingushetia and within the boundaries of the 17th century.
  5. Ryaruav
    Ryaruav 8 September 2019 17: 52
    0
    all the same, it is a pity that the new Russia lost such officer cadres
  6. Doliva63
    Doliva63 8 September 2019 19: 43
    +2
    Quote: Plantagenet
    "The Red troops were counter-revolutionary, they destroyed ALL the fruits of the February Revolution."


    “The February leaders could not even think, they did not have time to notice, they did not want to believe that they had caused another, overtaking revolution, abolishing them themselves with all their centennial radicalism. In the West, from their victory to their defeat, epochs passed - here they still convulsively ripped off the crown with their front paws - and their hind legs and their entire bodies were cut off. ”

    A. Solzhenitsyn “Reflection on the February Revolution”

    For the first time I agree with Sovranitsin, if these are his words. The feudalists were contingent such as our current elite. The trouble is that we do not have Bolsheviks.
    1. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 9 September 2019 21: 10
      +1
      Yes, Solzhenitsyn’s passage about the February leaders is interesting. It turns out he compared them with some animals? ---paws tore off----- with monkeys what?
      There are other good words ----February leaders could not even think
      I look forward to continuing. The author, as always, provides important information, narrating about the events of the past.
  7. Abrek VLG
    Abrek VLG 10 September 2019 10: 05
    0
    Thanks to the author, a very informative article! We look forward to continuing!
  8. Doliva63
    Doliva63 10 September 2019 18: 31
    0
    Quote: Reptiloid
    Yes, Solzhenitsyn’s passage about the February leaders is interesting. It turns out he compared them with some animals? ---paws tore off----- with monkeys what?
    There are other good words ----February leaders could not even think
    I look forward to continuing. The author, as always, provides important information, narrating about the events of the past.

    And I have a comparison with ours laughing
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