The land of the peasants in Wrangel

96
Land reform is one of the central reforms of the government of P. N. Wrangel, which was carried out in the territories controlled by the Russian army in May-November of 1920. It was intended to remove the land issue by settling land management and land use relations.

The land issue was key during the Russian Civil War. But most of the leaders of the White movement temporarily ignored him, leaving it to the discretion of the supreme organs of the state after the end of the Civil War.



The exceptions were General P. N. Wrangel and his government. It was they who began to implement domestic policy on a different basis - abandoning "non-judgment" and actively engaging in state-building. The government of P. N. Wrangel put into effect a whole complex of legislative provisions concerning the organization of the peaceful life of the population in the territories under the control of the Russian army.


P.N. Wrangell

PN Wrangel was in a hurry with the land reform, which is not surprising, because the situation on the fronts of the Civil War was changing at lightning speed. The general demanded outstanding efforts from all those involved in this work, and he managed to ensure that officials worked at a truly "revolutionary" (in the good sense of the word) pace.

P.N. Wrangel recalled that at first the commission of senator G.V. Glinka (the former friend of the minister of agriculture and the head of the resettlement department) formed a special commission in Yalta (then moved to Simferopol). It included a number of specialists on the land issue (4 representative from the meeting of public figures of Yalta, managing directorates and departments of agriculture, land management and state property, provincial surveyor and head of the land surveying department and a number of other responsible specialists).

The land of the peasants in Wrangel

Senator G.V. Glinka, Managing Agriculture of the Government of Southern Russia, “Father” of the Wrangel Land Law

Stormy discussions ensued. Some demanded the gratuitous provision of landless and land-poor peasantry of all state-owned and privately owned land (estates), others claimed that “property is sacred”, and the constraint of large-scale land management would prevent the country's economic revival. The government came under fire from both sides. The commission was also divided. Resolving the land issue on an all-Russian scale, the commission considered itself not eligible, and was looking for a "golden mean" - limiting its tasks and outlining only certain activities and only within the Crimea (multi-land region), in relation to the specificity of the territory.

The commission drafted a project, according to which agricultural land was transferred to privately owned estates that were leased or not cultivated by the owners during the last 6 years. At the same time, each landowner was granted the right to retain to 200 tithes (in the state or regional farms, this rate was doubled) of land. The owners retained all the estate land, buildings and areas of valuable crops (the peasants also maintained allotment plots and land acquired with the assistance of the Peasant Bank).

Lands subject to alienation were to be determined immediately, but for a certain period of time (1 year) their voluntary alienation by the owners was allowed.

Lands that were not sold by the appropriate date were placed at the disposal of the government - for subsequent use as intended. The pre-emption right belonged to permanent tenants.

Implement the bill should have a special mediation commission.

The project caused objections - even within the commission itself. Thus, the chairman of the Tavrichesky provincial district council issued a special opinion consisting in the immediate transfer to the agricultural population not only of leased land from privately owned estates, but also of all unused areas of the last 3 of the year, with the right to keep the owners 100 tithe.

Thus, the commission did not find a universal solution to the land question and did not sufficiently radically meet the peasants ’ideas about the needs of land management.

But the peasantry (the main stronghold of the Russian statehood) and the army (which had to rely on the broad peasant masses) were waiting for the solution of the land question.

As P.N. Wrangel noted, newspapers with information about the work of the land commission penetrated the front line. And the peasants from Northern Tavria even made their way to Sevastopol. They notified the Russian Army command of the situation and waited for an answer to one question: how the new Commander-in-Chief assumes to resolve the issue of land.

The commander-in-chief summoned representatives of the local peasant unions and delegates from outside the front line — and in the course of a long conversation he clarified the ideas and wishes of the peasantry.

The peasants reported that the population of the localities from which they came (with the exception of lumpenized people) was very communal and Soviet. The peasants wanted to establish peace and order in the village — and await a full-fledged law on land and local government. And they wanted to get the maximum self-government - both in the matter of land management, and in the field of land management. While meeting their aspirations, the peasants declared to P. N. Wrangel, they recognize the cause of the Russian army as their own, popular and state.

“These conversations,” noted P.N. Wrangel, “finally strengthened me in my decision to meet the moods of the army and the population.” I immediately instructed Senator Glinka to prepare the land bill in the shortest possible time, definitely already pointing out to him the main reasons on which this bill should be drafted. ”

The situation was difficult - there was no law and order in the sphere of land use, devastation reigned. And it concerned both red and white territories.

Thus, the landowners, farm lands and part of the peasant allotment lands captured by the peasantry of Northern Tavria, which were not recognized by the Soviet authorities as the property of the owners (the majority of them were wealthy peasants) and largely granted by the so-called. "Poor country", was used far from fully. T. n. "State farms" (based on the basis of former large estates) - showed miserable economic results. They were in poor condition, the inventory was preserved in very limited quantities, the buildings were partially burned.

In the southern districts of the Tauride province, which were under the control of the Armed Forces of Southern Russia for about a year, the Regulation on rural county institutions, approved by A. I. Denikin, has not yet been fully implemented. The old territorial councils (provincial and district) have lost their former strength and relevance, land use and land tenure were fragile, there was plenty of empty land.

Together with the landowners, the revolutionary wave of small farmers and owners, farmers, shook tenant farms, carrying on the crest of scum - dark forces (the rural poor) - who, terrorizing the working population, served as the main stronghold of Soviet power.

It was necessary to urgently resolve the land issue, and 8 on April 1920 of P.N. Wrangel issued an order containing the following provisions:

1. Use all suitable for cultivation of the land - to endow them with the greatest possible number of peasants, really working people on the land.

2. All endowed with land should receive the last in the property in a lawful manner - for a ransom.

3. Local self-government bodies should carry out the reform with the widest possible participation of the peasantry itself.

Opinions of members of the council again divided. But P.N. Wrangel approved the project, and 25. 05. 1920 was made public:

1. Order of the land.
2. The rules of transfer of state, land bank and privately owned agricultural lands to the ownership of land owners.
3. Temporary position on land institutions.

The special government communication explained in detail the conditions and circumstances of the publication of the land law, the content and significance of the latter. The Land Order, the Rules and the Provisional Regulations to the Order were promulgated by decree of the Governing Senate.

The Senate proclaimed that the land is transferred to the working owners in the hereditary eternal property - but after paying the state its value for the calculation with the owners of the lands subject to alienation. A firm land order in the village and the economic security of the working people on the land must become the guarantee of a lasting peace, especially since the law will be implemented with the direct participation of the peasants themselves.

Questions of rent and so forth were resolved by additional orders.

The first paragraph of the law established that any ownership of land (regardless of the grounds of this right) is protected from seizures and other violence, and the land remains in the possession of the owners who use them - until changes are made in accordance with the law.

In accordance with the Order of the land, arable, haying and grazing lands (lands) of estates (state-owned, State Land Bank and surplus of privately owned estates), exceeding the established size of possession, kept for each owner, were transferred to the peasants - the working people on the land of these owners. The size of the plots retained by the owners was outlined for each parish by the relevant local land councils - and then approved by the authorities.

The exceptions were the estates (on the basis of which state farms were organized), in which Soviet managers previously managed the economy, as well as especially important cultural or industrial enterprises of state or regional importance. These farms were temporarily disposed of by the government — and they could be transferred to the treasury or local authorities. But even on these estates, it was necessary to transfer to the workers on this land, first of all, the rental fund, and then the land, recognized as superfluous to save this estate as an economic unit.

For the owners and tenants who had settled in the manor in the areas they were subject to alienation, the manor's land was inviolable - inviolable and inalienable.

State-owned forests remained at the disposal of the treasury, and privately owned forests were taken under the supervision of relevant government departments. At the same time, the local population was provided with the right to receive fuel and construction materials from privately owned forests, as required.

A number of land, as we see, was withdrawn from the rules on alienation, being preserved by the owners. These were land: 1) allotment; 2) acquired with the assistance of the Peasant Bank; 3) allocated to farms and cuts; 4) allotted to churches and parishes, as well as monastic and vakuf; 5) belonged to agricultural experimental, educational and scientific institutions and colleges; 6) included in the line of urban settlements, as well as being recognized as necessary for the expansion of these settlements; 7) belonged to urban settlements, even if they were not part of their line, if they served the needs of city offices; 8) intended for cultural and educational villages or for the settlement of military personnel; 9) manor, garden, artificial plantations, irrigated crops, gardens, and especially valuable crops, regardless of the form of ownership (with the exception of the above-mentioned manor places consisted in the use of owners and tenants); 10) under the mills, factories, factories and other industrial objects in the amount necessary for their work, as well as occupied by ancillary facilities and devices; 11) not included in the volosts if these lands belonged to the inalienable lands mentioned above; and in terms of agricultural land, they did not exceed the size of the land plot left to the owner upon alienating those from him.

The ending should ...
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  1. +6
    April 18 2019 19: 19
    Very important and interesting event.
    It is a pity belated in time and space
    1. +5
      April 18 2019 19: 34
      That's for sure, started late
      1. +6
        April 18 2019 19: 42
        Moderation at the core
        On the one hand it’s good, on the other hand it’s not very
        1. -2
          April 18 2019 21: 36
          Quote: Hunghouse
          Moderation at the core
          On the one hand it’s good, on the other hand it’s not very

          not so bad it turned out was this Baron Wrangel, as he was doused with mud
    2. 0
      April 19 2019 06: 02
      Caesar
      What is the author that you do not understand the essence of the land reform of Stolypin Wrangel.
      Redemption payments were already assigned to the peasants when they were freed from slavery. The peasants were offered to buy land in the property at a price many times higher than the market value of the same land. Defaults on payments were subject to interest. It was assumed that the land will be redeemed * by peasant communities *. Peasants were forbidden to leave the community until the payment of payments. Peasants were fastened to the community. Almost after the abolition of SLAVERY, the FORTRESS LAW was established.
      In the Russian Empire, outright slavery was defined as serfdom. Do not fool yourself with crafty definitions. Peasants were traded as goods, those dissatisfied with the will of the master were executed, and the peasants paid the state a poll tax.
      Stolypin proposed to destroy the * community * and allow the peasants to single-handedly secure the land.
      Wrangel proposed to distribute the land, in addition to the landowners and peasants, to the state and all the rest.
      1. +2
        April 19 2019 08: 16
        You were not mistaken by the door?
        What does serfdom have to do with this ???
        The essence of the reform in question is that keeping the minimum to the owner, the rest of the state was transferred to the peasant. He became the title owner immediately, and the owner - after paying off the value of the land transferred to him (and then at a preferential price and in installments).
        Many peasants had their own land before that.
      2. -1
        April 19 2019 09: 35
        It is amazing how much exists regarding the ownership of land in the Russian Empire and the rights to other stupid property.
        Is it really difficult to at least read well, if not documents, then at least fiction?
        Reading is not painful. In the RUSSIAN EMPIRE * rights * to land or other property for nobles, priests, merchants, raznochintsy and peasants were different. Even noble officials of different classes had different rights.
        In discussing the land reform of Stolypin, one should KNOW HOW the peasants were freed from slavery and secured on the ground in communities.
        Wrangel attempted to liberalize land ownership for * nobles * into property. In the RUSSIAN EMPIRE, land was sold only by agreement with the authorities, even for nobles. The owner was not * undivided * the owner, for the use of the subsoil or the construction of production a separate permit was required, and of course the tax was.
        1. +4
          April 19 2019 11: 58
          All your recommendations - I am addressing you)
          and as for property - study the subject, and then
        2. +1
          April 19 2019 15: 48
          The idiocy of the article and some comments is obvious to all who KNOW about how they disposed of the land in the RUSSIAN EMPIRE and at * temporary *.
          The Bolsheviks handed the land to the peasants one of the first decrees. When the collective farms were created, the land was transferred to the share of their own.
          This is already under the liberal idol Khrushchev collective farm land has been transferred to the state. It was with * darling * Khrushchev that cooperatives and much more were destroyed.
          1. +3
            April 19 2019 18: 41
            The idiocy of the article and some comments

            I agree with the second part - in relation to your comments. and the article is super
            The Bolsheviks handed the land to the peasants one of the first decrees

            temporarily, as it turned out. and not in ownership, but in use
  2. +3
    April 18 2019 19: 33
    It is better to give a quarter of the harvest for 25 years (now even more on mortgages), but then get the land in the property (although before that - the peasant became the title owner with the full tools of the owner), than hunch over his whole life on foreign land (collective farms), having received nothing (more precisely sticks - workdays).
    1. 0
      April 18 2019 19: 49
      To the state? No.
  3. +3
    April 18 2019 19: 43
    Wrangel is almost the only reformer of all the white leaders. Right that we pay attention, interesting
    1. +5
      April 18 2019 21: 14
      Extraordinary of course man
      1. +2
        April 18 2019 21: 35
        Had every chance, but not enough time
        1. 0
          April 19 2019 12: 24
          It's too late to drink "Borjomi" when the kidneys are donated ...
  4. 0
    April 18 2019 21: 56
    Yes, I agree with all an interesting article. And, most importantly, the author cites very little-known facts. THANK!!! We look forward to continuing.
    For Wrangel - sorry man! He would have pursued this policy in the year 1919, which may have faded. And so the time was lost, and the place is not so very ....
  5. +7
    April 18 2019 23: 41
    About Wrangel Reform
    Wrangel adopted the Land Law, not because he was so good and cared for the people. He accepted it in order to secure at least some support among the local population. Compared to the Stolypin reform, the Wrangel law, of course, was a step forward, but by the standards of the revolution it was no longer effective, because the transfer of land to private property for redemption could still be carried out before the 17th year, and after that it was already pointless .

    By this time, in Soviet Russia, land had long since become state property and was transferred to peasants for use free of charge. Even in Poland and Romania, the state paid the ransom to the landlords for the land seized from them to a certain limit. There, the peasants immediately became owners without any payments, which made them truly supporters of their governments.
    1. +3
      April 19 2019 02: 33
      You are presenting the situation correctly! By the way, one can recall the Soviet cinema, which shows the attitude of the peasants to the purchase of land. How is it there? The Bolshevik says to the peasants: "Do you know that (the" Wrangelites "," Denikinites ") propose to transfer the land to the peasants for ransom? Does that suit you?" The peasants: "No, that's enough! We've already bought it back with our own later!" These are the "pies" ... "with kittens"!
    2. +4
      April 19 2019 08: 06
      Oh green, that's what pearls abound
      Wrangel adopted the Land Law, not because he was so good and cared for the people. He accepted it in order to secure at least some support among the local population.

      for exactly the same reason, red was also doing something. however, more concerned about how to stay in power than about the people
      the alienation of land into private property for redemption could still be carried out before the 17th year, and after that it was already pointless.

      totally disagree. every peasant is an owner, as Lenin himself wrote. And that means he prefers his own, albeit for a ransom, albeit free that they will then take away
      By this time, in Soviet Russia, the land had long since become state property and transferred to use peasants for free.

      that's it for use
      and then they drove everyone into collective farms, which was worse than serfdom. Under serfdom, the peasant worked for the landowner several days a week, and on collective farms every day
      1. +2
        April 19 2019 08: 12
        his, albeit for a ransom, than a gratuitous, which then will be taken away
  6. +7
    April 19 2019 01: 21
    The article directly abounds with pearls:
    carrying scum on the crest - dark forces (the rural poor) - which, terrorizing the working population,

    Taking into account the fact that the majority in the village was made up of this very poor, it is interesting to ask what kind of "working population" was this very poor "terrorized"? This is kulakov or what?
    All endowed with land should receive the latter legally in the property - for redemption.

    The practice of land redemption has already shown itself in all its glory - when, after the abolition of serfdom, many peasants paid redemption payments for decades, almost until the revolution itself. It is not surprising that the so-called "land reform" according to Wrangel did not find support among the peasants - they were already fed up with redemption payments after the abolition of serfdom ...
    that the population of the localities from where they came (with the exception of lumpenized persons) is very burdened by the commune and Soviet power.

    You can even say that these arrived "peasants" were a typical kulak, who sensed that because of this very Soviet power, they could lose their property and cheap labor in the form of farm laborers from those very "lumpenized" persons, so they ran for help to the crushers ... Moreover, the article describes everything in such a way that it seems like the majority of the peasant population was against the Soviet government, but it is not clear how this very government managed to win the civil war with such support from the population.
    Conclusion: the article is an attempt to justify the White Guard pack, which, with its inaction, social racism, arrogance, first brought the country to revolution, then struggled to win the civil war by frantic attempts to implement reforms that had to be carried out 20 years ago. At the same time, during the civil war, they invited foreign invaders to their fullest, promising to give up "Russia which they had lost" to bondage to various British, French and other "helpers". In general, from all sides "positive" characters.
    1. +1
      April 19 2019 08: 11
      And your pearls Andreas, as well as those of Green))
      Given the fact that the majority in the village was this very poor

      yes no uncle. The poor are a minority that has gone astray in comics. All the bulk, this is the middle peasant.
      "land reform" according to Wrangel did not find support from the peasants

      that's exactly what found support among the peasants, but trite late
      that it seems like the majority of the peasant population was against the Soviet government, it is not clear how this government itself managed to win the civil war with such support from the population.

      and she won with a creak. And when the peasantry hesitated - the white armies attacked, and when the garrison - the red ones.
      Conclusion: the article is an attempt to justify the White Guard pack, which, with its inaction, social racism, arrogance, first brought the country to revolution, then struggled to win the civil war by frantic attempts to implement reforms that had to be carried out 20 years ago. At the same time, during the civil war, they invited foreign invaders to their fullest, promising to give up "Russia which they had lost" to bondage to various British, French and other "helpers". In general, from all sides "positive" characters.

      conclusion - once again a collection of red-brown, robbed Russia and brought to the handle, passing it to the oligarchy in 1991, something else is commenting ...
      1. -1
        April 19 2019 11: 11
        About the lope of bunkhrust! But it doesn’t matter that by this time the landowner land was ALREADY handed over to the peasants? That is, Wrangel actually wanted to take away part of the peasant land (already obtained by them!) And transfer it back to the landlords? How democratic and liberal ...
        DECREE ON THE LAND OF THE CONGRESS OF THE WORKING AND SOLDIER DEPUTIES 17
        (adopted at the meeting on October 26 at 2 a.m.)

        1) Landlord property is abolished immediately
        without any ransom.
        2) Landlords' estates, as well as all lands specific,
        monastery, church, with all their living and dead equipment,
        manor buildings and all accessories turn into
        order of volost land committees and county councils
        peasant deputies, henceforth until the Constituent Assembly ....
        1) The right to private ownership of land is revoked forever;
        land can neither be sold, nor bought, nor leased to
        the lease is either pledged or in any other way alienated.
        All land: state, specific, cabinet, monastery,
        church, sessional, majorate, private ownership,
        public and peasant, etc., is alienated free of charge,
        turns into the public domain and passes into the use of all
        working on it.

        6) All citizens (without
        gender differences) of the Russian state who wish to process it
        by their labor, with the help of their family, or in partnership, and
        only as long as they have the power to process it. Hired
        labor is not allowed.
        ...
        7) Land use should be egalitarian, i.e. land
        distributed among workers, depending on local conditions, according to
        labor or consumer standards.

        BAKERY CRUNCH!
        1. +2
          April 19 2019 11: 27
          No, it's you crunching shovel sand
          And it doesn’t matter that by this time the landowner land was ALREADY handed over to the peasants

          no, captured by peasants. And what quickly came is easy and gone. This is me about unauthorized peasant redistribution. What then happened to our peasantry, which never became the owner of the land, we know. Soviet history)
          That is, Wrangel actually wanted to take away part of the peasant land (already obtained by them!) And transfer it back to the landlords? How democratic and liberal ...

          do not distort, read the law. It was about the transfer to the peasants of landowners and state lands.
          Nobody was going to transfer anything to the landlords.
          And what this led to
          1) Landlord property is abolished immediately
          without any ransom.
          2) Landlords' estates, as well as all lands specific,
          monastery, church, with all their living and dead equipment,
          manor buildings and all accessories turn into
          order of volost land committees and county councils
          peasant deputies, henceforth until the Constituent Assembly ....
          1) The right to private ownership of land is revoked forever;
          land can neither be sold, nor bought, nor leased to
          the lease is either pledged or in any other way alienated.
          All land: state, specific, cabinet, monastery,
          church, sessional, majorate, private ownership,
          public and peasant, etc., is alienated free of charge,
          turns into the public domain and passes into the use of all
          working on it.
          6) All citizens (without
          gender differences) of the Russian state who wish to process it
          by their labor, with the help of their family, or in partnership, and
          only as long as they have the power to process it. Hired
          labor is not allowed.
          ... 7) Land use should be egalitarian, i.e. land
          distributed among workers, depending on local conditions, according to
          labor or consumer standards.

          we already know. The state has become a monopoly on land.
          And the peasants - only users, no no the owners.
          and with such easy-drove to the collective farm and the entire short-lived.
          keep squeaking red sand
          1. -1
            April 19 2019 11: 34
            "Don't distort, read the law. It was about transferring landlord and state lands to the peasants.
            Nobody was going to transfer anything to the landlords.
            And what has this led to "

            The land has already been transferred to the peasants! To whom did the Wrangelites want to transfer it? AND?
            Do you know why White lost? And for two main reasons:
            1. They wanted to take the land from the peasants. For this, the peasant massively supported the Bolsheviks. And it does not matter whether all the land is taken or part of it.
            2. White relied on the support of the interventionists. And among the Russian people, hatred of the interventionists and their henchmen is recorded in genetics ...
            Shl here such wrong people live here ... PICHALKA ...
            Shl "no, it was captured by the peasants. And what came quickly, it was easy and gone. This is me about the unauthorized peasant redistribution. What happened then to our peasantry, which never became the owner of the land, we know. Soviet history)"
            I explain the difference when he captured (without permission) is a capture. When according to the law then it is a legal action ...
            THE EVERYDAY FALSE OF THE BULKHOKHRUST IS STRIKING. He forgot, gee ... that land reform was carried out in accordance with the LAW!
            Threat about users and owners, the Bolsheviks actually complied with the Socialist Revolutionary requirement, which in turn was created on the basis of the REQUIREMENTS AND PUNISHMENTS OF THE PEASANTS themselves.
            1. +2
              April 19 2019 11: 47
              The land was captured by the peasants. Back in the days of the Provisional Government.
              They wanted to take the land from the peasants. For this, the peasant massively supported the Bolsheviks. And it does not matter whether all the land is taken or part of it.

              firstly, nobody wanted to take away anything as we see.
              And the Bolsheviks planted comedians and food surplus. Here the peasant darted between the red and white.
              White relied on the support of the interventionists. And in the Russian people, hatred of the interventionists and their henchmen is recorded in genetics

              and the Bolsheviks are the interventionists themselves. Abandoned by the Germans, pursued a pro-German policy, gave the Germans a bunch of everything right down to gold. They relied on Hungarians, Germans and Chinese. This is a million times, such gangs are worse than any interventionists.
              the peasants wanted to seize the land, so that they would not be touched anymore. But no, they endured the NEP and drove them into collective farms - which they were incredibly happy with in quotation marks. No land, no will.
              So Zykay further ignoramus.
              If you do not know the difference between land ownership (for the Bolsheviks abolished private property) and land ownership (which the peasant has always sought).
              The whites lost due to the law of large numbers and large battalions. The central power and all the resources of the core of the empire are among the Reds. naturally, crawling along the outskirts it is impossible to win the Civil War. And Wrangel carried out at least 10 reforms; he could not turn 100 thousand bayonets into Soviet 5 million.
              1. 0
                April 19 2019 12: 22
                Quote: Albatroz
                ownership of land (which the peasant has always sought).

                If that were so, Stolypin’s reforms would succeed. And they ... we know that.
                1. +4
                  April 19 2019 18: 37
                  Well, the peasant has always sought to HIS own plot, at all times.
                  Both before and after the Stolypin reform
                  1. -1
                    April 20 2019 05: 08
                    Not confirmed by real events.
                    1. +4
                      April 20 2019 08: 06
                      Very confirmed.
                      And now ask the peasant and any person what he wants - to be the owner or owner
                      And bent into an arc in the 30s, yes.
                      1. +2
                        April 20 2019 12: 03
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        Very confirmed.

                        For instance? The peasants supported the Bolsheviks because they wanted private ownership of land?
                      2. +4
                        April 20 2019 17: 15
                        The peasants supported the Bolsheviks (and by no means all, because the vast masses fought with the Bolsheviks in the ranks of the White armies or peasant uprisings) because they believed in a beautiful fairy tale, catchy slogans.
                        "Land - to the peasants"!
                        They thought that they would not be given to hold it, this land - and property, as it would be humanly, would be.
                      3. +2
                        April 20 2019 17: 40
                        And on what basis did they think so? The Bolsheviks openly said (and did) that they would not have any property (on land, on plants, factories, ships).
                        The whites advocated that the Bolsheviks socialize wives, children, that with them people would not even have their own houses, and that they would all live in one huge hut and sleep on the same bed under one big blanket ... So, didn’t you believe this?
                      4. +4
                        April 20 2019 20: 01
                        But who delves into such trifles, reads these programs?
                        After all, when Zhirik shouted - to each peasant a bottle, and to each woman a peasant, naturally this means permanently, and not for use)
                        The peasants, in general, supported more than the Social Revolutionaries than the Bolsheviks.
                      5. 0
                        April 21 2019 10: 18
                        Read and how! Newspapers were read out to rags.
                        Did the peasants support the Social Revolutionaries more? That's right, because the Socialist-Revolutionaries pushed through a peasant program - the socialization of the land with the abolition of private property. The Bolsheviks took the Socialist-Revolutionary program for themselves, which earned the support of the peasants. And the white right SRs with their slogan "Land for the peasants" did not receive such support. Because they are white.
                        The main thing - unlike Zhirik, the Bolsheviks won the war, not the elections. And there they looked not according to slogans, but according to real affairs.
                      6. +5
                        April 21 2019 19: 51
                        Read and how! Newspapers were read out to rags.

                        Q.E.D!
                        Sami debunked the myth of illiterate peasants of the land of Russia laughing lol
                2. +4
                  April 20 2019 08: 08
                  And why did they get that Stolypin’s reforms failed?
                  the result was such that in 1940 about 1913 they remembered and compared.
                  Another thing is that not completely - just as there was not enough time
                  1. +2
                    April 20 2019 12: 05
                    Quote: Albatroz
                    just as not enough time

                    Because time was not enough because they failed. They accelerated and strengthened the revolution, instead of destroying it.
                    1. +4
                      April 20 2019 17: 17
                      Because time was not enough because it was simply not enough.
                      The reform was long-term. All overthrew the war and the revolution.
                      And then the result is very personal. The middle class in the village was actively forming.
                      1. +2
                        April 20 2019 17: 44
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        The middle class in the village was actively forming.

                        Along with a more active formation of the kulaks and the poor, i.e. social stratification and, as a consequence, social discord, which accelerated and hardened the revolution. Exactly, by the way, with the forecasts of Lenin in 1906-1917.
                      2. +4
                        April 20 2019 20: 03
                        That is, it would be better left as it was?
                        Better yet - serfdom? Then certainly there would have been no revolution.
                        Yes, and the collective farm system is akin to serfdom, only state. And no revolutions.
                        Yes, the peasants wanted to land in the 90s - and again, into property.
                      3. 0
                        April 21 2019 08: 38
                        It would have been better to do what the peasants demanded in their "Orders" - to take away the land from the landlords and prohibit private ownership of it. Those. carry out a revolution from above, until it is done from below. Just like with the abolition of serfdom.
                      4. +5
                        April 21 2019 19: 52
                        Wrangel and carried out the orders of peasant walkers from the front line)
                        And their peasants.
                        And the land councils were. Oh how!
              2. +1
                April 19 2019 13: 20
                and the Bolsheviks are the interventionists themselves. Abandoned by the Germans, pursued a pro-German policy, gave the Germans a bunch of everything right down to gold. They relied on Hungarians, Germans and Chinese. This is a million times, such gangs are worse than any interventionists.

                Enough of telling tales about the Bolshevik-German agents already, frankly speaking, it has set the teeth on edge. An elementary school student can still believe in such tales, but people who were interested in the issue know perfectly well that this is not so. Starting with the fact that Lenin was the only one of the heads of all Russian parties who refused to meet with Parvus, who offered some kind of funding for these very parties (in fact, he did not give a penny to anyone), and ending with the fact that the support of the Germans was just trying to get the crystal bakers who ran in the southern army - either Alekseev or the same Wrangel (I don't remember exactly who), but after a shout from their English partners, they somehow stopped looking for German support. Moreover, the Germans themselves would not mind supporting them, as can be seen from the correspondence between the parties. Don't you find it strange that the Germans, in this case, would support both sides if the Bolsheviks were their "agents"?
                Also, if the Bolsheviks were agents of the German General Staff, then there must be some kind of documents that confirm this? Why, then, during the Great Patriotic War, the Germans did not publish these documents, because it would be a powerful propaganda move that could seriously undermine the fighting spirit of the Red Army? In general, until documents are found confirming the cooperation of the Bolsheviks with the Germans, in the Japanese, with the devil all this remains just tales to fool the population of Russia.
                And about the exported gold - the same whites, starting with Kolchak, who exported the gold reserve to Japan, exported much more gold from Russia than the Bolsheviks paid to the Germans in the Brest peace.
                1. +2
                  April 19 2019 18: 35
                  I was most smiled by your accusation of "social racism" on whites. It's like ah?
                  After all, social racists or Nazis, if you like, are the Bolsheviks. Who else but them cleaned up entire categories of the population - simply on a professional or social basis.
                  For no other.
                  It is time.
                  And who is Lenin or Tukhachevsky by origin?
                  And Denikin or Kornilov? That's it.
                  These are two
                  1. +3
                    April 19 2019 18: 39
                    Lenin’s documents were cleared (and not that was lost).
                    how they cleared the docks and that Stalin was an agent of the secret police. I don’t know how anyone - but I respect Stalin even more for that. A state-minded person, already in those days, was fighting the revolutionary infection.
                    1. 0
                      April 19 2019 19: 28
                      Lenin’s documents were cleared (and not that was lost).

                      Something I didn't understand, who cleaned up Lenin's documents? Germans? If, according to your statement, Lenin was a German agent, do you think the Germans would give him money (or provide other assistance) without any receipts at least? Or do you think that the Germans, being pedants in the smallest details, would give money without any documents? If I were Lenin's curator from the German side, I would be very seriously afraid to spend money so much, if only because I cannot account for them to the authorities ... And so, I spent the money, but here I have a receipt that "V. Ulyanov. I. received a million gold Reichsmarks from an agent .... for carrying out revolutionary events in the Russian Empire. " And from the point of view of reporting, everything is smooth, and there is compromising evidence on the revolutionary ... So where are these receipts?
                      The same thing about Stalin - given the fact that the Soviet leadership was a serious ideological struggle, first between Stalin and Trotsky, then between Stalin and Zinoviev-Kamenev, then Stalin and Bukharin, and Stalin received full power only in the late 20 - early 30, what prevented Stalin's competitors from the same Trotsky and others at the beginning of the 20s, when Stalin had not yet fully controlled the situation, to use such a smart trump card as Stalin being a secret police agent? After all, then there were also documents - the same Stalin's receipts about receiving money, denunciations of the comrades signed by Stalin, well, at least some piece of paper should have remained ... Yes, you could also find witnesses and the curator of Stalin from the secret police to find that he testified ... However, none of this was presented. And Stalin, judging by the description of the people who knew him, was not such a person as to convey to someone or to receive money from the secret police. I judge this by the fact that Stalin wore the same clothes for years, until she finally fell apart. Even Stalin’s biographers could determine from a photograph about what year it was made from the clothes that are on it in the photograph. If he received money from the secret police, could he not afford more varied clothes? In general, your allegations that something has been erased, destroyed, and so on are just as untenable as your understanding of social racism.
                      1. +3
                        April 19 2019 19: 34
                        do you think the Germans would give him money (or would provide other assistance) without receipts at least? Or do you think that the Germans, being pedants in the smallest details, would give money without any documents? If I were Lenin's curator from the German side, I would be very seriously afraid to spend money so much, if only because I cannot account for them to the authorities ... And so, I spent the money, but here I have a receipt that "V. Ulyanov. I. received a million gold Reichsmarks from an agent .... for carrying out revolutionary events in the Russian Empire. " And from the point of view of reporting, everything is smooth, and there is compromising evidence on the revolutionary ... So where are these receipts?

                        weak argument
                        Well, the documents for Stalin were just discovered by chance, that's all.
                        In any case, well done - he helped law enforcement.
                        In general, your allegations that something has been erased, destroyed, and so on are just as untenable as your understanding of social racism.

                        amazing logic lol
                      2. 0
                        April 19 2019 20: 30
                        In any case, well done - he helped law enforcement.

                        I think Comrade Stalin would be deeply parallel, whether you consider him well done or not.
                        Well, the documents for Stalin were just discovered by chance, that's all.

                        The typical trick of a liberoid is to first make a false statement, for which there is no evidence, and then, on the basis of this statement, build a subsequent chain of equally false “evidence”.
                        In general, according to the presumption of innocence - a person is innocent until proven otherwise. You could not prove Stalin's involvement in the work of the secret police, and even more seriously people than you dug in this direction and did not dig anything. So the amazing logic is not with me, but with you. Once there is no evidence, then Comrade Stalin did not work for the secret police.
                      3. +3
                        April 19 2019 20: 35
                        Typical Liberoids

                        from the same hyperboloid I hear
                        make a false statement, which has no evidence, and then build on the basis of this statement a subsequent chain of equally false "evidence".

                        You perfectly described the system by which here, in VO, build your commenting. Bravo! It's like a mirror)
                        Since there is no evidence, then Comrade Stalin did not work for the secret police.

                        and if I worked, I don’t see any disaster
                      4. -1
                        April 19 2019 20: 48
                        You perfectly described the system by which here, in VO, build your commenting. Bravo! It's like a mirror)

                        I will open your eyes to the name of the system on the basis of which I base my comments. It's called "Logic".
                        Can you give an example of at least one of my false statements? And then something is your statement about my statement
                        make a false statement, which has no evidence, and then build on the basis of this statement a subsequent chain of equally false "evidence".

                        does not fit into the framework of the very logic ...
                        Yes, you must admit there is a big difference between "worked" and "probably worked". You do not remind yourself of the State Department with their "highlighted"? I, too, can say that according to some information, someone "Albatroz (Manfred)" is a pedophile and a murderer of children? Will such a statement be true, because you cannot prove to me otherwise? Or can you?
                      5. +4
                        April 19 2019 23: 39
                        AnderS (Andrey)
                        I will open your eyes to the name of the system on the basis of which I base my comments. It's called "Logic".
                        Can you give an example of at least one of my false statements? And then something is your statement about my statement

                        That's it and it is respected.
                        LOGIC replaces KNOWLEDGE for you. I understood this a long time ago.
                        On the basis of the shore or in general from scratch, build meaningful conclusions. And it turns out solid sophistry - of little value in itself
                  2. -1
                    April 19 2019 19: 08
                    Judging by your answer, you have absolutely no idea what "social racism" is.
                    I give a definition specifically for you.
                    SOCIAL RACISM
                    the doctrine according to which people from disadvantaged strata of society are viewed as genetically and psychologically inferior creatures belonging to a different anthropological category ("the race of workers", "people of the second class") than the upper classes, aristocracy, representatives of elite social circles ("race of masters" ). Many famous people believe and continue to believe this, including in the Russian Federation, and earlier in pre-revolutionary Russia (in particular, N.A. Berdyaev, I.A.Bunin, A.A. Shenshin (Fet), etc.). The theoretical foundation of social racism is mainly social Darwinism.
                    So what does this belief system have to do with the origin of certain figures? Say the same Leo Tolstoy, Lenin and Dzerzhinsky, being by origin nobles - were absolutely not social racists - i.e. neither the nobles, nor the peasants, nor the workers, were considered second-class people, mentally or otherwise inferior, this would be strange from their origin ...
                    And the same Denikin, was not quite from the peasants. If you take an interest in his origin, then find out that his father was from the peasants, but he served as an officer and Denikin, being formally from the peasants, did not experience peasant life in his own skin. It seems that if in childhood he had experienced all the delights of peasant life at that time, then he would not have been so zealous in defending the interests of whites.
                    And you brought Wrangel as an example in vain - being a baron, and coming from an old noble family, he was very far from the needs and aspirations of the peasants of that time.
                    1. +4
                      April 19 2019 19: 22
                      well, Bolshevism is social Nazism.
                      So arrange? Some exterminate people on a national basis, while others - on a class and professional basis. All the difference.
                      So what does this belief system have to do with the origin of certain figures?

                      even as it has. If such a parasite as Ilyich did not work a day, living all his life on the money of his family, wife or party, then he has no moral right to talk about the proletariat. For he does not know what it is - daily physical labor.
                      And the same Denikin, was not quite from the peasants. If you take an interest in his origin, then find out that his father was from the peasants, but he served as an officer and Denikin, being formally from the peasants, did not experience peasant life in his own skin. It seems that if in childhood he had experienced all the delights of peasant life at that time, then he would not have been so zealous in defending the interests of whites.

                      I know you better, the only and only literate. Denikin drank in his childhood. And he served all his life to his homeland. And as he wrote correctly, the chief officer in his income at the beginning of the 20th century was quite comparable with the proletariat. Only the military proletariat. An army infantry officer, up to the rank of captain, could not marry, funds did not allow him to support his family. Do not confuse with the guard, where there were rich people.
                      And Denikin, like hundreds and tens of thousands of whites, officers, and former warrant officers — from raznochintsy, peasants and workers — did not defend estates that they didn’t have (dearly dear for a century), but their vision of the development of Russia.
                      And you brought Wrangel as an example in vain - being a baron, and coming from an old noble family, he was very far from the needs and aspirations of the peasants of that time.

                      Yes, as well as Tukhachevsky and Lenin. And if
                      Leo Tolstoy, Lenin and Dzerzhinsky, being noble by origin, were absolutely not social racists - i.e. they considered neither nobles, nor peasants, nor workers, second-class people

                      then Wrangel was the same. Only he, at least, was one of the first cavaliers of St. George and shed blood for his homeland.
                      And the same Ilyich was hiding abroad at that time, calling for the defeat of Russia and writing books that were needed only by Austro-German propaganda.
                      1. -1
                        April 19 2019 20: 08
                        then Wrangel was the same. Only he, at least, was one of the first cavaliers of St. George and shed blood for his homeland.

                        And what, the St. George gentleman and the shedding of blood for his homeland automatically makes a person the arbiter of the fate of the whole nation? And gives him the right to decide how to live in the future? Well, catch the answer - maybe you don’t know, but such a little-known character as Semen Mikhailovich Budyonny was not just a George cavalier, but a complete George cavalier - and on whose side he fought, can you tell? Or let’s say George Konstantinovich Zhukov - also, by the way, the gentleman of St. George.
                        And to catch up, your passage about Lenin and the fact that he was "hiding" abroad ... Can you tell me what the same Denikin or Wrangel was doing after losing the civil war? Should they be partisans on the territory of the Soviet Union? Or were they in exile in the same way? If they were such "patriots" and "heroes," then why did they go abroad?
                        Come on, they just sat there - but the same Denikin, after the Second World War, actively collaborated with the CIA - the obvious enemies not only of the Soviet Union, but also as it is seen today in Russia.
                        I'm not even talking about such an organization as the ROVS, created by Wrangel, which did not work under whose roofs. In the interwar period, under the roof of Polish intelligence, in the post-war period, under the roof of the same CIA. In general, even those "patriots" ...
                        And about Lenin's "writing". You probably like Denikin's writings better - namely, the contract that he concluded with the French

                        Contract
                        Wrangel undertakes:
                        1. To recognize all the obligations of Russia and its cities in relation to France with priority and interest on interest.
                        2. According to the Soviet Government, France will convert all Russian debts and a new 6 1/2 0/0 loan, with partial annual repayment, over a period of 35 years.
                        3. Payment of interest and annual repayment is guaranteed:
                        a) the transfer to France of the right to operate all the railways of European Russia for a known period;
                        b) the transfer of France the right to levy customs and port duties in all ports of the Black and Azov Seas; c) by providing France with surplus bread in Ukraine and the Kuban region for a certain number of years, with pre-war export being taken as the starting point; d) by providing France with three-quarters of oil and gasoline production for a known period, with pre-war production being put in the foundation; e) transfer of a quarter of the coal mined in the Donetsk Region over a known number of years. The indicated period will be established by a special agreement that has not yet been worked out.
                        Paragraphs b, c and e take effect immediately upon the occupation by the troops of the gene. Wrangel relevant territories. The proceeds from the export of raw materials are used to pay interest on old debts.
                        4. Under the Russian ministries of finance, trade and industry, official French financial and commercial offices will be established in the future, the rights of which must be established by special agreement.
                        5. France takes on the task of rebuilding Russian arms and shell mills, with which the new army is arming itself. France and Russia enter into an offensive and defensive alliance for a period of 20 years.

                        Just an example of patriotism. For the sake of power, he is ready to sell the whole country in bondage for 20 years. So there is no need to talk about what wonderful people there were all these crystal bakers.
                      2. 0
                        April 19 2019 20: 19
                        Sorry, I was mistaken, not Denikin, but Wrangel of course ...
                      3. +3
                        April 19 2019 20: 25
                        such a little-known character as Semen Mikhailovich Budyonny was not just a St. George cavalier, but a complete St. George cavalier - and on whose side he fought, can you tell? Or let’s say George Konstantinovich Zhukov - also, by the way, the gentleman of St. George.

                        that's just they and stranded the right to decide something.
                        and not those who sat in the rear, conducted subversive propaganda, and then took off to the top of power)
                        And in pursuit, your passage about Lenin and the fact that he was "hiding" abroad ..

                        Well, confuse something with a finger. Ilyich sat during (and not after) the war with an external adversary, conducted subversive propaganda and then also headed the state. In WWII, this would have definitely been spanked, wouldn’t it?))
                        Well, here it is
                        You probably like Denikin’s writings more - namely, the agreement that he concluded with the French
                        Contract
                        Wrangel undertakes:
                        1. To recognize all the obligations of Russia and its cities in relation to France with priority and interest on interest.
                        2. According to the Soviet Government, France will convert all Russian debts and a new 6 1/2 0/0 loan, with partial annual repayment, over a period of 35 years.
                        3. Payment of interest and annual repayment is guaranteed:
                        a) the transfer to France of the right to operate all the railways of European Russia for a known period;
                        b) the transfer of France the right to levy customs and port duties in all ports of the Black and Azov Seas; c) by providing France with surplus bread in Ukraine and the Kuban region for a certain number of years, with pre-war export being taken as the starting point; d) by providing France with three-quarters of oil and gasoline production for a known period, with pre-war production being put in the foundation; e) transfer of a quarter of the coal mined in the Donetsk Region over a known number of years. The indicated period will be established by a special agreement that has not yet been worked out.
                        Paragraphs b, c and e take effect immediately upon the occupation by the troops of the gene. Wrangel relevant territories. The proceeds from the export of raw materials are used to pay interest on old debts.
                        4. Under the Russian ministries of finance, trade and industry, official French financial and commercial offices will be established in the future, the rights of which must be established by special agreement.
                        5. France takes on the task of rebuilding Russian arms and shell mills, with which the new army is arming itself. France and Russia enter into an offensive and defensive alliance for a period of 20 years.
                        Just an example of patriotism. For the sake of power, he is ready to sell the whole country in bondage for 20 years. So there is no need to talk about what wonderful people there were all these crystal bakers.

                        Isn’t the same tactical move as the Brest Peace? laughing
                        clear tactical move)
                        as we talked about this matter, blocking out those who did not just promise to pay interest (as, in principle, all normal people and states do, including successors - since the successor, bear the burden) - and gave away entire regions.
                        Not, of course, to get stronger, try to return them laughing
                        So down with double standards)
                      4. 0
                        April 19 2019 21: 28
                        that's just they and stranded the right to decide something.
                        and not those who sat in the rear, conducted subversive propaganda, and then took off to the top of power)

                        Well, so they decided on whose side they were when the question arose a bit, didn’t they? And on this side they showed all their talents and abilities for the victory of their side ... And they, by the way, defeated your favorite crust bakers.
                        Well, confuse something with a finger. Ilyich sat during (and not after) the war with an external enemy, conducted subversive propaganda, and then also headed the state. In WWII, this would have definitely been spanked, wouldn’t it?))

                        And why did you actually cling to Lenin? Or do you think that Lenin alone made a revolution?
                        And on the occasion of the spank, they did not spank - you can familiarize yourself with the biography of General Slashchev, if you know who he is ... And what prevented the same Denikin from returning to the USSR? In 21, an amnesty was issued for all participants in the white movement ... The fact that they did not return to the USSR is only to blame for their arrogance and inability to accept defeat. It also shows which of them were "patriots". Better to live abroad than in Russia so beloved by them laughing ... Directly current fugitive deputies, only more arrogant. The current deputies are afraid that they will be imprisoned, but these believed that the USSR did not come out with a snout to receive such "heroes" ...
                        Isn’t the same tactical move as the Brest Peace? laughing
                        clear tactical move)
                        no, this is not the same "tactical move" as the Brest Peace Treaty. The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk was concluded in respect of territories and in respect of payments with much less damage than the agreement that Wrangel concluded. The Wrangel Treaty gave almost all of European Russia to the mercy of France for 20 years. And according to the Brest-Litovsk peace, reparations payments to Germany stopped immediately as a socialist revolution took place in Germany (though unsuccessful), which the Bolsheviks arranged. Don't you think that the Bolsheviks had a plan how to get rid of the results of the Brest Peace? What was Wrangel's plan? Leave the French to feed not for 20, but for 100 years?
                      5. +4
                        April 19 2019 23: 36
                        there are no analogues to the Brest peace - everything fades before this crime
                        So - I do not find
                      6. -1
                        April 19 2019 20: 29
                        Quote: AnderS
                        Contract
                        Wrangel undertakes:
                        1. Recognize all

                        You can find out who is the source of this scribble ?. And then .. Wrangel undertakes ..- something does not pull on an official document
                      7. +4
                        April 19 2019 20: 37
                        And then .. Wrangel undertakes ..- something does not pull on an official document

                        The author of this scribble is AnderS (Andrey). And at all to Wrangel.
                        I’ll tell you how it works: the main thing for him is
                        make a false statement, which has no evidence, and then build on the basis of this statement a subsequent chain of equally false "evidence".
                      8. 0
                        April 19 2019 20: 40
                        No, the author of this fake is not AnderS. He only distributes it

                        https://leon-spb67.livejournal.com/958160.html

                        About Wrangel's contract with France
                        Several times there was a mention that Wrangel entered into a secret treaty with the French government, which, in fact, gave the country to plunder. Links lead to a collection of articles "Entente and Wrangel" 1923 release. The author of the article refers to the London newspaper Daily Herald of August 30, 1920.

                        Here is a scan of the article (it was not possible to upload a picture in LiveJournal - it’s broken):

                        Home
                        Extension

                        In the footnote to the article, it is said that White issued a refutation.
                        There are no issues on the British newspaper archive website for 1920 and the article cannot be found:

                        http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results?newspaperTitle=Daily%20Herald

                        The English Wiki writes that this is a working union newspaper. He also writes that exactly in August 1920 Lev Kamenev came to London and British intelligence intercepted his telegram to Lenin, in which he reported that he had transferred 40 thousand pounds to this newspaper and promised another 10 thousand in the near future:
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Herald_(UK_newspape)

                        In August 1920 Lev Kamenev, a Bolshevik diplomat visiting London on official business, sent a telegram addressed to Lenin in Moscow which was intercepted and deciphered by British intelligence. The telegram stated that Kamenev had paid £ 40,000.00 to the Daily Herald, and a further payment of £ 10,000.00 would be made shortly. [1]
                      9. +1
                        April 19 2019 20: 53
                        No, the author of this fake is not AnderS. He only distributes it

                        Before you call something fake, can you at least google for a start? Or can you post fake comments only?
                        https://arctus.livejournal.com/74596.html
                      10. -1
                        April 19 2019 21: 00
                        As you can see, I googled. And this "agreement" is a fake. Published by some kind of labor union English newspaper. After Comrade Kamenev's visit to London and the transfer of a large sum of money to the newspaper. On the line of the Comintern campaign. Where is the English union leaflet and where is Wrangel and France how it is heated.
                        By the way, the negotiations between Wrangel and France are October 20 goda. And the "agreement" in the trade union newspaper is August. Amazing insight. Don't you think?
                      11. 0
                        April 19 2019 21: 31
                        Can I have a link? I want to get acquainted ...
                      12. -1
                        April 19 2019 21: 40
                        The link is indicated in the post
                      13. +1
                        April 19 2019 22: 24
                        In which post? Or are you talking about the link that I cited?
                        \ And about the amazing insight - I can say that agreements are usually not concluded on the same day, the conclusion is preceded by a long discussion of the draft agreement - therefore, what is published in the newspaper is not necessarily a signed agreement - I fully admit that this is a draft agreement ...
                        But about your assertion that Comrade Kamenev drove some money to the newspaper, can you confirm this with something?
                      14. -1
                        April 19 2019 22: 41
                        https://leon-spb67.livejournal.com/958160.html
                      15. 0
                        April 19 2019 20: 51
                        Please read https://arctus.livejournal.com/74596.html
                  3. 0
                    April 20 2019 05: 27
                    Social racism is exactly white (in general). The Bolsheviks "cleaned out" just such "racists", and therefore received massive support among the people. Whites could look three times "kind", but for the people they were "strangers", and the Reds could be fierce - but still "ours, ours."
              3. +2
                April 19 2019 13: 59
                It’s a little incomprehensible ... but what kind of land was Wrangel going to transfer to the peasants if the land was taken by peasants?
                That is, how it turns out - the land supposedly illegally obtained by you, you return it to us, we will sell it to you, will it be yours again legal? So?
                Then the question arises ... why the peasants need this?
                And this is the first question.
                The second question is that even if this undertaking were nevertheless implemented, such a solution to the land issue still did not reduce (not to mention the elimination) of the disproportion in the "estates" of the peasants, and possibly increased. And also did not stop the crisis in agriculture. The natural result of which would be another revolution.
              4. +2
                April 20 2019 05: 23
                Quote: Albatroz
                pursued a pro-German policy

                The Germans did not seem to notice this. On the occupied territory, they MANDATORY and TOGETHER overthrew the Soviets created by the Bolsheviks and put in power anyone, but necessarily opponents of the Bolsheviks.
                1. +4
                  April 20 2019 08: 03
                  The Germans did not seem to notice this. On the occupied territory, they MANDATORY and TOGETHER overthrew the Soviets created by the Bolsheviks and put in power anyone, but necessarily opponents of the Bolsheviks.

                  Very wise isn't it? )) But we must distinguish between strategy and tactics
                  We now also have a superficially very independent power, well, so directly active in foreign policy and how terrible it is patriotic.
                  But analyze more deeply - either direct agents or at least agents of influence, finally transforming Russia into a country of the Latin American type and into an American colony with genocide against its own people. That is - performing installation overseas OWN,
                  1. +2
                    April 20 2019 12: 14
                    And what was strategy and tactics here? Judging by the end result - the revolution in Germany with the overthrow of the monarchy and the civil war (though very small), the Germans clearly failed in the strategy. Or did they want this? wink
                    1. +4
                      April 20 2019 17: 20
                      Tactics - apparently the Germans naturally disown Bolsheviks. For a view. Otherwise, how?
                      Strategy - a pro-German government was planted, giving them gold and territories.
                      It is then.
                      Tactics is an active foreign policy of the Russian Federation (camouflage), masking a strategy - pro-American power at the head of the country, dependent economy and final result. which - wrote above.
                      1. +4
                        April 20 2019 17: 20
                        I'm talking about now
                      2. +2
                        April 20 2019 17: 54
                        these
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        naturally disown Bolshevik

                        What is natural about this? On the contrary, a paradox.
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        Otherwise, how?

                        Otherwise - to keep them open. Why not? To supply them with weapons and ammunition, not the White Cossacks. Moreover, to send troops to help not the Skoropadsky, Petliura, Mannerheims, etc., but the "pro-German government" against all of these.
                        That would overthrow the White Bolsheviks, and the Entente, true to the allied obligations of the Entente, would again open a second front against the Germans - what then? "What were you fighting for?"
                      3. +4
                        April 20 2019 20: 07
                        Keeping them open means becoming the same. This empire is, though Kaiser. what, huh?
                        The government is leftist, maximalist. What is it in Russia is good for the Germans, it fulfills their wishes. And at home - God forbid.
                        Their troops were barely enough for the Western Front, and for occupation - Belarus, Ukraine to control, to export bread and lard.
                        That would have overthrown the white Bolsheviks, and faithful to the Allied obligations of the Entente, would have again opened a second front against the Germans - what then?

                        Yes, they wouldn’t have time. All perfectly understood this. The bill went in a matter of months — either the Germans would get to Paris again, or the allies would crush. Everyone knew how to count, especially since in sight.
                        So even in the event of the overthrow of the Bolsheviks, the second front was late.
                      4. -1
                        April 21 2019 08: 42
                        Quote: Albatroz
                        Keeping them open means becoming the same

                        Why so? Later, other countries established diplomatic relations with this "leftist, maximalist" government - they did not become "the same" because of this.
                        And I repeat, the Germans themselves clearly did not consider that it fulfills German desires. And not without reason.
                      5. +5
                        April 21 2019 19: 46
                        What does the relationship ???
                        To be a conductor of ideas, to identify with him externally - that was the question
          2. +2
            April 19 2019 11: 38
            I don’t understand that you’re getting to these collective farms like that, the collective farm is a new stage in the development of agriculture, if you understand the whole world now in these “collective farms” (factories, holdings, corporations), for a certain number of benefits that the owner considers necessary. Small private business is shrinking all over the world.
          3. +1
            April 19 2019 12: 17
            Quote: Albatroz
            with our peasantry, which never became the owner of the land

            But did it, the peasantry, want to become the owner of the land?
      2. +3
        April 19 2019 12: 15
        Quote: Albatroz
        And when the peasantry hesitated - the white armies attacked, and when the garrison - the red ones.

        And vice versa - how is it? When did the peasants cease to hesitate? Those. in the end decided who they should stand for? Well, quite believable.
      3. +2
        April 19 2019 12: 55
        conclusion - once again a collection of red-brown, robbed Russia and brought to the handle, passing it to the oligarchy in 1991, something else is commenting ...

        If you are looking for red-brown here look in the mirror ...
        yes no uncle. The poor are a minority that has gone astray in comics. All the bulk, this is the middle peasant.

        This is by what such data, most were middle peasants, give a link? I suggest you challenge the testimony of a contemporary of those events, I think his name is known to you:
        The witness to the life of pre-revolutionary peasants in this post is Count L.N. Tolstoy (from the Complete Works in 90 volumes, Academic Anniversary Edition, Volume 29).
        In the first village I came to - Malaya Gubarevka, in 10 yards there were 4 cows and 2 horses; two families were fighting, and the poverty of all the inhabitants was terrible.
        The situation of the villages is almost the same, although somewhat better: Bolshoi Gubarevka, Matsnev, Protasov, Chapkin, Kukuevka, Gushchin, Khmelinok, Shelomov, Lopashin, Sidorov, Mikhailov Brod, Bobrik, two Kamenka.
        In all these villages, although there is no mixture of bread, as was the case in 1891, they do not give bread, although clean. Welding - millet, cabbage, potatoes, even most, have no. Food consists of grass cabbage soup, whitened if there is a cow, and unbleached if there is none, and only bread. In all these villages, the majority sold and mortgaged everything that could be sold and mortgaged.
        From Gushchin I went to the village of Gnevyshevo, from which two days ago peasants came, asking for help. This village consists, like Gubarevka, of 10 courtyards. There are four horses and four cows in ten yards; almost no sheep; all houses are so old and bad they barely stand. Everyone is poor, and everyone is begging to help them.
        “If only the kids had a rest,” the women say. "And then they ask for folders (bread), but there is nothing to give, it will not fall asleep evenly."
        I know that there is some exaggeration, but what a man in a caftan with a torn shoulder says right away is probably not an exaggeration, but reality.
        “If only two, three from the bread to push,” he says. And then he brought to the city the last scroll (a fur coat had been there for a long time), brought three pudos for eight people - for how long! And there I don’t know what to carry ... "
        I asked to exchange three rubles for me. In the whole village there was not even a ruble of money.
        There are statistical studies that show that Russian people are generally 30% malnourished of what a person needs for a normal diet; besides this, there is evidence that the young people of the chernozem strip over the past 20 years have less and less satisfy the requirements of good build for military service; the general census showed that the population growth, 20 years ago, being the largest in the agricultural strip, decreasing and decreasing, has now reached zero in these provinces.

        So there is no need here to talk about the victory of the Soviet power with a creak, and about the wonderful life of the peasants under the tsar-father and under his "faithful" companions such as Wrangel, Kolchak, Denikin and other villagers.
        1. +2
          April 19 2019 13: 21
          In formal terms, the middle peasants are in fact the majority. The middle peasant is one who has land, but does not use hired labor. But how much land is there and what kind of land is another question.
          1. -2
            April 19 2019 20: 39
            In formal terms, the middle peasants are in fact the majority. The middle peasant is one who has land, but does not use hired labor. But how much land is there and what kind of land is another question.

            Your logic is strange - who introduced these formal features? Even with collectivization, if insanity does not fail me, the owners of at least a cow and a horse were considered middle peasants. And taking into account the above quotation from Tolstoy, when there are 10 cows and horses for 4 yards, the middle peasants have nothing to do with the majority. There is a maximum of 40%, and provided that the cow and the horse were in the same yard - but most likely it was so that someone had a horse, and someone had a cow ...
            1. 0
              April 22 2019 09: 15
              Your logic is strange - who introduced these formal features?

              Vladimir Lenin, Mao Tse Dong.
          2. +1
            April 20 2019 05: 20
            Quote: Nefarious skeptic
            The middle peasant is one who has land, but does not use hired labor.

            That is, those about whom Shingarev wrote: "... in Mokhovatka, he allotted for 1 soul the size of 3 soot. Width by 80 length or 1,5 soot. Width by 120 length, ie a narrow long strip of earth in the form of a ribbon .; Zhivotintsy redistributed the entire land in 1894, equating the estate land with the field, and for each soul there was a plot of land 11 fathoms wide and 60 long.

            The number of peasant households in which there were no horses at all - 33 in N.-Zvyatinsky (38,4% of all households) and 6 - in Mokhovatka (8,8% of all households);
            The number of peasant households in which there were no cattle at all - 22 in N.-Zhivotinniy (24,2% of all households) and 13 - in Mokhovatka (19,1% of all households) "

            is it middle peasants? Having a shower allotment of 8-11 acres (one and a half summer cottages) per capita and not having the ability to process it due to lack of cattle? Then the poor are only those who sold land for debts and live solely as laborers or left for the city?
            To be honest, I strongly doubt that such "middle peasants" were against the commune ...
      4. +1
        April 20 2019 21: 00
        Quote: Albatroz
        conclusion - once again a pack of red-brown, robbed Russia and brought to the handle, passing it to the oligarchy in 1991, something else is commenting on it.

        And by chance, will you be from the Black Hundreds?
  7. -2
    April 19 2019 15: 47
    During the civil war, both sides engaged in populism regarding the land issue. In fact, no one was going to transfer the land to the peasants into property. But they believed more in the Bolsheviks, because they didn’t manage to screw up yet. The peasants needed their own strength to be reckoned with, but the long-standing habit of obeying and waiting for mercy here again affected.
    1. +2
      April 20 2019 12: 18
      Quote: friend of beasts
      But they believed more in the Bolsheviks

      And what exactly did they believe? The Bolsheviks immediately declared: "The right to private ownership of land is canceled forever; land can be neither sold, nor bought, nor leased, or pledged, nor can it be alienated in any other way ..."
      Did you believe this or just misunderstood it?
      1. -2
        April 20 2019 17: 22
        No, the slogan was simpler "land to peasants". Where the peasants could understand the intricacies of ideology. And only then came the kombedy, food appropriation and other state farms with collective farms. The peasants resisted all these measures.
        1. +2
          April 20 2019 17: 59
          What, in what, and in these subtleties the peasants understood better than anyone! Their deputies to the State Duma know what "Orders" they brought.
          And besides, if the Bolsheviks won the election, one could say that this is thanks to slogans. But they won the long war, which was marching with varying success. It was clearly visible there who was worth something not on slogans, but on deeds. The result is known.
  8. 0
    April 19 2019 23: 26
    When all the polymers were already ahem ... lost, gentlemen remembered the peasants. Would have been born 50 years earlier and there would have been no GB.
  9. 0
    April 23 2019 18: 40
    Very interesting reform
    Sorry for being late
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