Crimea: from Russian Tmutarakan to the Horde

131
Khazar-Byzantine period

VIII-X century - a period of Khazar influence in the Crimea. Khazaria was a very interesting public education. The Khazar tribes occupied the territory from the Caspian Sea and from the mouth of the Volga to the Don and from Ciscaucasia to the Azov Sea. The majority of the population were descendants of the same Scythians (Sarmatians and Alans), who did not share anywhere from the vast expanses of the Black Sea to the Urals and beyond. There are no traces of total genocide and replacement by another ethnic element. Some Slavic unions of tribes entered the Khazaria.

From 650, the Khazars were ruled by the Ashina dynasty, whose capital was the city Semender on the Terek River in Dagestan. Around 740, one of the Khazar military leaders - Bulan turned to Judaism. In Khazaria, a civil war occurred, which led to a change of elites. The pagan elite was defeated. The Jews occupied a dominant position, using Muslim warriors as a mercenary punitive force. The capital was Itil on the Volga. The economy of the common population was based on livestock, agriculture and fishing. And the Jewish elite of Khazaria (Jewish rakhdonite) received huge incomes due to control over transit routes going from East to West. Khazaria controlled the mouths of the Don and Volga rivers, part of the Caspian Sea, as well as the Crimea, where the Great Silk Road passed.

In addition, the rakhdonites used the Khazaria military machine for the slave trade that provided great profits. The Khazars took tribute from the people controlled by Slavic and other lands (Finno-Ugrians). The Radziwill Chronicle reports that the Khazars took "according to the white girl with smoke." And next to it in miniature, so that there was no mistake, they didn’t take it for a slip of hands, a group of girls and an elder are shown, bowing before Khazarin. Slavic children and girls were in great demand in the markets of the East. In the Khazar Kaganate rules clan slavers. Apparently, this is a shameful phenomenon for the Slavs and will become the basis for fairy tales and byli “miracle yudah the shit”, “snake”, which demanded red ladies. The historian Lev Gumilyov knowingly called the Khazaria a “chimera on the Volga”.

In the second half of the 7th century, Khazaria established control over almost all of Crimea, except for Tauric Chersonesos. Many villages were destroyed by Khazar raids. At the same time, the Khazars did not particularly interfere in the internal life of the inhabitants of the peninsula, imposing tribute and trade duties on them. City residents were left self-government. The representative of the government, Tarkhan, was located in Sudak. At the beginning of the VIII century, Khazaria and Byzantium divided the Crimea into spheres of influence: the steppe Crimea became Khazar, the Roma belonged to the southern and south-western Crimea with Chersonesos. In the middle of the 8th century, when Byzantium was experiencing a period of political instability, the Khazars attempted to seize the southern coast of Crimea. However, they met strong resistance from the local population. Byzantium retained its influence on the peninsula.

In the Byzantine part of the peninsula, the bulk of the population was represented by free rural communities, headed by councils of elders and local priests, elders. Above them were the landowners ("Timarions"), the owners of the Isar castles. The dependent peasants submitted to the local feudal lords. Even higher were the "toparchs" and "archons" - the heads of military garrisons and fortresses, representatives of the Byzantine government. Until the beginning of the XIII century, they submitted to Constantinople, but after the capture of Byzantium by the Crusaders in 1204, the power passed to the sovereign Prince Theodoro, the former archon of the Byzantine province. This small Christian principality with its capital in the city of Mangup, whose population consisted of Goths, Greeks and Alans, existed until the XV century. Theodoro was defeated by the Ottoman troops.

Crimea: from Russian Tmutarakan to the Horde

The ruins of the walls of Chersonese

Russian influence

In the same period, the Slavic-Russian element appears in the Crimea. According to a number of researchers whose information does not fit into the “classical” history (written by the Germans and their students), the Slavic-Russian presence on the peninsula traces from earlier times, since the time of the Sarmatian-Alanian period (Secrets of Russian history: Azov-Black Sea Russia and Varangian Russia; Part 2).

In the middle of the 8th century, the campaign of the Rus from the Don to the Crimean peninsula to Sudak itself is known. The phrase "rus" or "grew" as the name of the Eastern Slavic people were known to Byzantine and Arabic sources. At the same time, the Greeks (the Romans) associated the “Scythians” (“Tauroskifs”) with the Rus, and the “Great Scythia” with Russia. The ancient Russian state gradually began to control a significant part of the Northern Black Sea region. A tribal union of streets inhabited the land along the lower reaches of the Dnieper, the Southern Bug, the Dniester and the Black Sea coast. The Tivertsy lived between the Dniester and Prut rivers, as well as the Danube. Slavic settlements were in the Crimea. A significant number of objects of Slavic-Russian origin have been found on the peninsula. Slavic found in Korsun and southeastern part of the peninsula weapon, cult objects with inscriptions in Russian, Slavic dishes and other household items.

In the X century, the Rus and Khazars fought fiercely. The first Rurikovich (Falcon dynasty) tried to establish their control over the southern unions of the Slavic-Russian tribes, which were under the authority of the Khazars (including the fields and the Vyatichi). It was necessary to eliminate the military threat from the south and an even more dangerous conceptual "Khazar chimera" that spread the bloody slave-owning orders on the lands of Russia (Why Khazaria was for Russia a terrible enemy - "miracle Yud"; Saber kick of Svyatoslav on the Khazar "miracle-yuda"). There was also an economic prerequisite for war. Russian princes also needed control over trade routes. The historian Boris Rybakov wrote: “The struggle for the freedom and security of trade routes from Russia to the East became a common European cause. The parasitic Khazar state, which lived at the expense of customs duties, held in its hands all the exits from Eastern Europe to the East to the country of the Guz, Khorezm and the rest of the Caliphate. The Khazar Kaganate took huge duties on travel and return, and in the case of a favorable balance of power, he was simply robbed by the returning Russian caravans, as was the case in 913 year. ”

Prince Oleg Veshchy fought with the Khazars. In 939, Prince Igor of the Rus took the Khazar city of Samkerts, located on the Taman Peninsula. In 964, Svyatoslav freed a large tribal union of Vyatichi from the power of the Khazars. During the campaign 965-966. the squad of Svyatoslav with the support of the Allied Pechenegs defeated the Khazar army, took the capital of the Khazar Kaganate - Itil, seized the second city of the Khazars - Semender, located on the Terek. Then the North Caucasian tribes of the Yases and Kasogs were conquered. The hike was completed on the Taman Peninsula. Returning home, Svetoslav took an important Khazar fortress on the Don - Sarkel, renaming it to Belaya Vezha. In the same period, the Pechenegs appeared in the Crimea, they defeated a significant part of the settlements.

The results of the campaign were exceptional. The huge Khazar empire was defeated in just a year and ceased to be a threat to Russia. The Jewish Khazars fled, some settled in the Caucasus, some - in the Crimea. Paths to the East have been cleared. Sarkel and Tmutarakan - the two most important centers of the southeast, became Russian cities, forming the Tumutarakan principality.



The correlation of forces has changed in the earlier half-Byzantine, half-Khazar Crimea. Kerch (Korchev) became a Russian city. One hundred years later, Prince Gleb, Svetoslav's great-great-grandson, measured the frozen Kerch Strait and left the famous inscription on how he “measured the sea on ice from Tmutarakan to Korchev 14000 sazhen,” marking the centenary of Russian victory and domination of such important communication. Tmutarakan principality existed until the XII century, when its lands fell under the control of the Polovtsy. At this time, the Black Sea was called Russian.

Around 988-989's. Russian prince Vladimir laid siege and took by storm Chersonesus Tauride, the strategic center of Byzantium in the Crimea and the Black Sea region. He did this because the Byzantine basileus Basil II and Konstantin VIII deceived him. At one time, being in a hopeless situation because of an internal insurgency raised by the Byzantine commander Warda Fock, they asked for military assistance from Vladimir. Byzantium and Russia entered into a military alliance. Two Byzantine emperors promised Vladimir to marry his sister Anna, but did not fulfill the promise. Russian troops suppressed the rebellion, but they did not give Anna back to Vladimir. Then Vladimir took Chersonesos, declaring that this was a warning before the Russian army’s march on Constantinople. Anna was sent to Chersonese, where the wedding took place. Vladimir handed over the Chersonesos to the Romans and returned to Kiev. At the same time, he was baptized and decided to make Christianity the state religion in Russia.

During this period, the Slavs constituted a significant part of the population of the Crimean peninsula. Old Crimea, Sudak, Mangup, Chersonese - this is where the Slavs constituted the most significant part of the population. The capital of the Tmutarakan principality was located in the Taman village on the Taman Peninsula. The Russian Tmutarakan was erected on the site of the Khazar city of Tamatarkha, previously the Greek city of Hermonassa was located here, founded in the 6th century BC. er Russians, Yases, Kasogs, Goths and Polovtsy lived here. For a long time Tmutarakan was the second largest shopping center of the Black Sea, second only to Constantinople. Almost all maritime and steppe trade routes of the 11th - 12th centuries passed through Tmutarakan. At the end of the 10th century, the principality included the remnants of the restored Bosporus kingdom by Byzantium. Mstislav Vladimirovich, who ruled the principality before 1036, strengthened and expanded the boundaries of the principality. Mstislav conquered the Kasogs, killing their prince Rededu in a duel. Russian prince made trips to Shirvan. Tmutarakan firmly incorporated in the Chernigov principality.


Martial art Mstislav with Rededy. Nicholas Roerich

Thus, the claims of representatives of the Crimean Tatars that they are the indigenous population of the Crimean peninsula and therefore must have certain privileges, does not correspond to historical reality. The Slavic-Russian population lived in the Crimea since ancient times and has much more rights to be called the indigenous population of the Crimea-Tavria.

Tmutarakan was lost when the Polovtsy established control over the Northern Black Sea region. At the end of the XI century, the Polovtsy inflicted a crushing defeat on the Pechenegs. Earlier, Polovtsians lived in the basin of the Irtysh and Tobol rivers, and in the middle of the XI century they penetrated into the Dnieper and the Northern Black Sea region. They were also descendants of the Scythians, and in anthropological and cultural relations were not very different from the Rus of Kiev, Chernigov and Ryazan. The main difference was that Kiev-Novgorod Russia had already been Christianized, and the Polovtsy, like the future "Tatars", were pagans, worshiped Heavenly Father and Mother Earth. In Russia, they were called “Polovtsy” for their light hair color (in Russian polova means straw), and in the West they were called Komans or Kumans. Arabs called them Kipchaks. With the Polovtsy, the Ruses then fought, then reconciled, were friends and traded. For example, Prince Daniil Galitsky had a very good relationship with the Polovtsy, who used the Polovtsy as light cavalry during their campaigns against the Yatvyagi and Lithuania. The Polovtsy asked for support from the Russian princes when the "Tatars" invaded. Polovtsian beauties were the wives of many princes.

Russia in this period was already in decline. By the middle of the XII century, united Russia had collapsed into fifteen large state formations, which, in turn, were divided into fronts. Southern Russia, due to the constant strife of the princes, who often invited the allied Polovtsi to help, quickly lost its former significance. The ideological, political and economic center of the Russian land passed to the northeast in the basin of the Upper Volga, the former outskirts of the Russian state. Russia no longer influenced the processes occurring in the Northern Black Sea region. The Russians left the Crimea and the Black Sea region for a very long period.

Crimea, except for the Kerch Peninsula and Chersonesos, fell under the power of the Polovtsy. Their main stronghold in the Crimea was Sudak (Sugdeya). Trade in goods from Russia, Europe, the Great Steppe, Asia Minor, India and China passed through this city. It should be noted that at this time the Russians were still present in the Crimea. So, when Sudak in 1222 was attacked by Seljuks from the Rumsky Sultanate located in Asia Minor - complaints of Seljuk merchants against Sugdey, allegedly offended in the city, served as a pretext for the invasion, the combined Russian-Polovtsian army entered the battle.

The influence of Byzantium in the Crimea, after the conquest of Constantinople by the Crusaders in 1204 and the collapse of the empire, was drastically reduced. From the wreckage of the empire arose the Nicaean empire in the west of Asia Minor and the Trapezund empire in the northern part of Asia Minor, near the Black Sea. Byzantium no longer controlled the southern and southwestern Crimea. Chersonese paid tribute to Trebizond, but its power in the Crimea was nominal. Only after the re-establishment of the Byzantine Empire in 1261, Kherson again obeyed Constantinople.

In the middle of the 12th century, the principality of Theodoro (Mangup principality) appeared in the southwest of the peninsula. The principality was inhabited by descendants of the Taurians, Alans, Goths and Greeks. The boundaries of the principality passed along the Black Sea coast from Balaklava to Alushta, and in the north to the river Kachi. The capital of Theodoro was Mangup, located in the area of ​​modern Bakhchisarai. The second major city of the Christian principality was Funa fortress. The principality had extensive international relations, including with Moscow. About 200 thousand people lived in it. Feodoro feuded with the Genoese and the Crimean Tatars. It will be destroyed by the Ottoman Turks.

Horde

In 1223, the Mongol-Tatars defeated the Polovtsy, then defeated the Russian-Polovtsian army. "Mongols" for the first time trash Sudak. The “Mongols” returned in 1239 and already arrived for a long time. Polovtsi, after a desperate resistance, were crushed. The bulk of the ordinary population joined the Horde. Part of the military elite was destroyed, some fled to Europe and Byzantium. Polovtsi, who lived in the steppe Crimea, were destroyed or subordinate, their cities and villages destroyed. Returning in 1242 from the campaign, the Mongols settled firmly in the Crimea, which became an ulus, a province of the huge Horde empire. The Crimean ulus was ruled by the viceroy of the Great Khan. Sudak retained the importance of an international port, and later Theodosia acquired the same status.

It should be noted that in the anthropological and cultural terms, the “Mongol-Tatars” had nothing to do with real Mongols-Mongoloids. These were the classic Northern Caucasians. And the descriptions of the majority of books and films where brutal persons of “Mongolian nationality” are shown do not correspond to the truth (About the strangeness of the "Tatar-Mongol" invasion; The problem of the "Mongol" invasion of Russia; Part of 2;Part of 3; Part 4). The myth of the "Mongol-Tatar" invasion was created specifically for the Vatican and the owners of the western project to hide the truth about the existence of a millennial northern civilization, known under the name of "Great Scythia", "Sarmatia", "Horde" and "Great Tartary", direct the heir of which is the Russian civilization and the superethnos of the Rus-Russians.

In the Russian Empire, this myth was officially recognized to legitimize the Romanov dynasty and the pro-Western course, the Europeanization of Russia. It was necessary to erase the memory of the Rus, to turn Russia-Russia into a cultural, raw material appendage of the European civilization. Although in reality, Europe has always been the outskirts of the great northern civilization, from where for thousands of years, there were passionate waves that led to the emergence of new cultures, states and peoples. Hence the hatred and fear of the masters of the West, the desire to solve the “Russian question” - to completely destroy and assimilate the Russians.

The Crimean governor, the ulus emir, was subordinate to the thousanders, centurions, and foremen who received land plots with a dependent population and gradually became local feudal lords. The surviving population was taxed and taxed, and at first was subjected to constant robbery, people were driven to be sold into slavery. Muslim merchants and missionaries went to the Horde through the Crimea. In 1260, a large group of Seljuk Turks migrated from the Asia Minor to the Crimea. This sharply accelerated the Islamization of the peninsula. The first mosques appear. After the Islamization of the Horde, the situation in Crimea deteriorated due to the religious press. Locals were subjected to Islamization, those who maintained their faith were legally oppressed. As a result, Islamization led to the fact that on the peninsula the remnants of the former, ancient population were destroyed. Some people were exterminated during numerous conflicts, since the Christians were the least protected, others were assimilated.

The capital of the Crimean ulus and the residence of the ulus emir became the city of Kyrym - Crimea, built by the Horde in the valley of the Churuk-Su river in the southeast of the peninsula. From the name of this city, the peninsula received the current name. Tavrika became the Crimea. The city for some time became the transit and customs center of the peninsula. From the middle of the 14th century, the Genoese Tana colony, founded at the mouth of the Don, assumed this function. In addition, on the caravan route in the eastern part of the peninsula, the city of Karasubazar is being built - the “Bazaar on the Kara-su River”, which quickly turned into the most populous and richest city of Crimea.


Genoese fortress in Sudak

To be continued ...
131 comment
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +2
    19 June 2015 07: 31
    Even this folk-Judas will not calm down! There is no Stalin on them!
  2. +2
    19 June 2015 07: 41
    "Great Tartaria"... Lomonosov, Karamzin, Tatishchev ... other Russian historians, I emphasize the Russians, apparently about Great Tartaria ... did not know anything .. smile
    1. +10
      19 June 2015 08: 01
      Do not ascribe Lomonosov here, it’s better to write how German historians Eak Miller wrote about his rottenness and that he was against their history in Russia. Karamzin ...)) it’s better to read how he wrote that he hates Russians ..)) Bla-bla show for others is better to arrange a naive show. Only one not only the Russian heirs of Tartaria. Remember where the eldest son of Shyngyskhan, Zhosha or Jochi is buried according to yours and there is his real grave and is still preserved !! and not other myths, and what is the name of the residence of the President of Kazakhstan - Akorda ..
      1. +8
        19 June 2015 08: 49
        Recently I watched a film about French excavations of Scythian ice graves in western Mongolia. A sensible thought about the Scythians sounded there. The Scythians are an ethnos of the nomadic peoples of the Eurasian steppes. From Korea to the Adriatic Sea. The Scythians were heterogeneous. They often fought among themselves. There was no doubt that they were Caucasians. Anthropological examinations of the remains were done. Around the 5th century BC, the Mongoloids began to push the Scythians from the east. There were waves of great migrations from east to west. The remaining Scythians mixed with the Mongoloids and acquired an "oriental appearance". But customs and lifestyle have not changed. It was the same nomadic way of life as it was under the "white" Scythians. The same beliefs, way of life, military skills, culture.

        Kazakhs, Tatars, Slavs, Tajiks, some Caucasian peoples are all direct descendants of the Scythians. And there’s no point in highlighting someone.
        1. +15
          19 June 2015 10: 35
          Quote: Cossack Ermak
          Kazakhs, Tatars, Slavs, Tajiks, some Caucasian peoples are all direct descendants of the Scythians. And there’s no point in highlighting someone.

          They all ended up on the same heap.
          In what sense are they the heirs of the Scythians? In the genetic? It is enough to compare the appearance of the Kazakhs, Slavs (Eastern) and Caucasians to understand that they are genetically very far from each other. Maybe in a linguistic sense, heirs? But Turkic, Slavic and Caucasian languages ​​are not related. In a cultural sense? But the cultures of the Slavs, Caucasians and Kazakhs are very different from each other and no common more or less noticeable cultural heritage is not traced.
          It turns out that the heirs only in the sense that the Scythians once lived in the territories that are now part of Southern Russia, Northern Kazakhstan and part of the Caucasus republics? Are the heirs of all that they dug from their mounds and placed in museums?
          Of course, all people are brothers, but nevertheless it is a very bold statement to say that "it makes no sense to single out someone" about peoples with completely different cultures, languages ​​and even races.
          1. +5
            19 June 2015 10: 54
            Quote: alebor
            They all ended up on the same heap.
            In what sense are they the heirs of the Scythians? In the genetic? It is enough to compare the appearance of the Kazakhs, Slavs (Eastern) and Caucasians to understand that they are genetically very far from each other. Maybe in a linguistic sense, heirs? But Turkic, Slavic and Caucasian languages ​​are not related. In a cultural sense? But the cultures of the Slavs, Caucasians and Kazakhs are very different from each other and no common more or less noticeable cultural heritage is not traced.

            Here in the thread there is a video conference on genetics. So for you it will be a discovery that language, culture, even racial affiliation is not the primary source. There is a genetic affiliation.
            Culture can change in a couple of generations. Taking a wife of a different race, you can change your ace in a couple of generations while remaining a native speaker.
            But the genotype transmitted from father to son will not change. So you can define related peoples.
          2. 0
            19 June 2015 10: 59
            Quote: alebor
            Of course, all people are brothers, but nevertheless it is a very bold statement to say that "it makes no sense to single out someone" about peoples with completely different cultures, languages ​​and even races.

            By the way, if we talk about culture, then the closest receivers of the Scythians can be considered Kazakhs. Over 2 and a half millennia, internal customs, crafts, and lifestyle have undergone minor changes.
            Scythians were nomadic people.
            1. +6
              19 June 2015 14: 24
              I don’t know how Kazakhs are, perhaps, but it’s known for sure that, for example, Ossetians are definitely descendants of the Scythians, they even have their own language preserved))
              1. The comment was deleted.
            2. +7
              20 June 2015 18: 56
              Quote: Cossack Ermak
              Scythians were nomadic people.

              at the same time, the Scythians had cities and they led a settled-nomadic image, and they planted bread and did much more unusual for the Kazakhs. Their ancestors (Kazakhs) belonged to different peoples and were newcomers among the Kyrgyz - Kyrgyz Kaisakhi. Kazakhs as a whole have nothing to do with Scythians at all, but some peoples may have evolved from Usuns, but this has not been proved.
              And if we take only the way of life as a basis, then the Jews are closer to them, they generally roamed the desert for 40 years lol
              1. +1
                20 June 2015 21: 43
                Quote: 4-th Paradise
                Quote: Cossack Ermak
                Scythians were nomadic people.

                at the same time, the Scythians had cities and they led a settled-nomadic image, and they planted bread and did much more unusual for the Kazakhs. Their ancestors (Kazakhs) belonged to different peoples and were newcomers among the Kyrgyz - Kyrgyz Kaisakhi. Kazakhs as a whole have nothing to do with Scythians at all, but some peoples may have evolved from Usuns, but this has not been proved.
                And if we take only the way of life as a basis, then the Jews are closer to them, they generally roamed the desert for 40 years lol

                Well, among the western and central Kazakhs, a huge percentage of carriers of the halogen group R1A.
              2. +2
                20 June 2015 21: 54
                4thParasion (2)
                Well, the Scythians are also very different. In fact, from the Black Sea to Mongolia there was an eternal tusnyak. They constantly wandered, fought with each other. And they lived far from a friend. And naturally, the Scythians on the Danube and the Scythians of Altai differed from each other.
                1. 0
                  21 June 2015 00: 53
                  Quote: Cossack Ermak
                  Well, the Scythians are also very different. In fact, from the Black Sea to Mongolia there was an eternal tusnyak. They constantly wandered, fought with each other. And they lived far from a friend. And naturally, the Scythians on the Danube and the Scythians of Altai differed from each other.

                  not far away, but over a large territory. Yes, in later times they did not have one state, but there were not hundreds of them, and not even dozens of them. And the state were more than many modern ones.
                  So in their first days of state. Scythia included all of Ukraine, Don, Kuban, Stavropol, Transcaucasia, Kazakhstan (this is the southern border). But how much they stretched to the north is not known for certain (according to some sources before the Baltic), but the fact that the Ore Altai and the foothills of the Urals were undoubtedly the same as the whole of Tatarstan. And that was before our era. But even then they had cities and developed agriculture. Greece from Scythia carried a huge amount of bread, a proven fact. And if later Scythia split into several states, this does not mean that the Scythians forgot how to sow bread, or forgot how to make a wheel.
                  1. 0
                    21 June 2015 01: 23
                    Quote: 4-th Paradise
                    And if later Scythia split into several states, this does not mean that the Scythians forgot how to sow bread, or forgot how to make a wheel.

                    There was no single Scythia. There was a people connected by one culture, way of life, language. But Scythia was never a single state. IMHO.
                    Judge for yourself. Continuously download to report the news from under the Danube to Altai, and then give the answer back ..... It would take five years.
                    1. 0
                      26 June 2015 01: 42
                      Quote: Cossack Ermak
                      There was no single Scythia. There was a people connected by one culture, way of life, language. But Scythia was never a single state. IMHO.

                      Look for information about the "royal Scythians" as the Greeks called them. But not on Wikipedia.
          3. +1
            20 June 2015 18: 43
            Quote: alebor
            In what sense are they the heirs of the Scythians? In the genetic? It is enough to compare the appearance of the Kazakhs, Slavs (Eastern) and Caucasians to understand that they are genetically very far from each other. Maybe in a linguistic sense, heirs? But Turkic, Slavic and Caucasian languages ​​are not related. In a cultural sense? But the cultures of the Slavs, Caucasians and Kazakhs are very different from each other and no common more or less noticeable cultural heritage is not traced.

            The Scythians living east of the Ural River were assimilated by the Mongols. So, in my opinion, the Türks appeared. it should not be forgotten that the Türkic languages ​​went from the Usuns, and according to the descriptions of the Chinese who traded with bites, they were Caucasians with red or blond hair and blue eyes.
        2. The comment was deleted.
      2. +4
        19 June 2015 09: 48
        How did I read about the "last commander of Tartary" - Pugachev .. Pushkin A.S., it turns out that he did not know about it either .. smile hi
      3. +7
        19 June 2015 10: 21
        Quote: Ereke
        Remember where the eldest son of Shyngyskhan, Zhosha or Jochi is buried according to yours and there is his real grave and is still preserved !!

        And here is another, well-spilled Kazakh laughing
        1. +4
          19 June 2015 17: 36
          Quote: TroN
          And here is another, well-spilled Kazakh

          Oh ... looks like my late grandfather, the correct facial features would have been said in the Third Reich. smile Yes, my beard is not Mongolian, I need to shave more often, sometimes twice a day. For bosses and for my wife smile And the beard is not by status even in the family there are older ones ... smile
        2. 0
          19 June 2015 21: 30
          Is it Khan Batyr? Bogatyr-Bogatyr.
        3. +1
          21 June 2015 03: 16
          and he lived for almost 300 years ... In my opinion this is not Batu Khan but Methuselah is direct ..)))
        4. ivan.ru
          0
          22 June 2015 13: 44
          "the spitting image of Kazakh"
          and what did they sculpt in the photograph?
      4. Asily 50
        +14
        19 June 2015 19: 46
        And where does * Kazakhs *? How and when did they appear on this territory, you know, or for you Nazarbayev * the light of all historical discoveries *? The new birth of * Manas * will not lead to anything good, Ukrainian events show not the harmlessness of the profanation of history, * great Ukrainians * an example of a free interpretation of events. Fairy tales plunged more than one head, do not need extra * victims * exaggerated greatness.
      5. The comment was deleted.
    2. +4
      19 June 2015 08: 18
      Quote: parusnik
      "Great Tartaria" ... Lomonosov, Karamzin, Tatishchev ... other Russian historians, I emphasize the Russians, apparently about Great Tartaria ... did not know anything

      VN Tatishchev was from "Petrov's nest" and would not bite the liver of Westerners, and the original works of MV Lomonosov not edited by the "Germans" do not exist. For some reason there is an English map of "Great Tartary", google and it will open to you ...
      1. +5
        19 June 2015 08: 44
        Quote: V.ic
        Quote: parusnik
        "Great Tartaria" ... Lomonosov, Karamzin, Tatishchev ... other Russian historians, I emphasize the Russians, apparently about Great Tartaria ... did not know anything

        VN Tatishchev was from "Petrov's nest" and would not bite the liver of Westerners, and the original works of MV Lomonosov not edited by the "Germans" do not exist. For some reason there is an English map of "Great Tartary", google and it will open to you ...

        For the British, all peoples not Europeans were before Tatars or Mongols as you like
        And now everyone who lives in this territory is Russian for them because of their lack of literacy among them
        1. -4
          19 June 2015 11: 41
          Among Europeans, "slave" and "Slav" are also one word:
          - English slave (“slave”), French esclave (“esklav”), German Sklave (“sklav”), Portuguese escravo (“eskravo”), Italian schiavo (“schiavo”).
          1. +4
            19 June 2015 12: 52
            Quote: UrraletZ
            Among Europeans, "slave" and "Slav" are also one word:


            So what? .... What is the conclusion?
          2. -1
            19 June 2015 16: 27
            ".. Europeans still have" slave "and" Slav "in one word:
            - English slave ("slave") ... "

            Slav - Slav
          3. Asily 50
            +2
            19 June 2015 20: 01
            this is because almost all of the so-called * titular * nations of Europe have come, robbed and enslaved the indigenous population. Assimilation lasted for centuries, we see the results. As a sample - the Prussians * are * polished * by the Goths under the exemplary Deutsch.
          4. The comment was deleted.
    3. +3
      19 June 2015 10: 22
      Quote: parusnik
      "Great Tartaria"... Lomonosov, Karamzin, Tatishchev ... other Russian historians, I emphasize the Russians, apparently about Great Tartaria ... did not know anything .. smile

      Tartaria has nothing to do with the Horde or Tataria.
    4. +7
      19 June 2015 11: 38
      This myth was invented to remove the faith of the Russian, and along with it the rest of the peoples of Russia, in its recent past and sow doubts. From the same place grow the legs of delirium about the Cossacks as a "separate people", about the "prison of peoples" and other nonsense ...
  3. +5
    19 June 2015 07: 49
    Who is minus the story? Give your reasons. I read the article with interest. Thank.
    1. +4
      19 June 2015 08: 08
      The whole article I hear a jingle but I don’t know where it is
      1. 0
        19 June 2015 08: 37
        I ask you to comment on your disagreement, and not in the quiet - to put it so much more interesting
        And I will be interested to know a different point of view
        And I don’t agree with many aspects of this article as a person who won more than once in the olympiads on the histories of Russia
        1. 0
          19 June 2015 08: 56
          Quote: insafufa
          I ask you to comment on your disagreement


          I did not set minuses, as well as pluses. The article is controversial, in the majority I agree, but there are moments.
          important Khazar fortress on the Don - Sarkel
          As far as I know (I will not argue), but Sarkel was on the site of modern Volgograd, and Itil - Astrakhan. hi
          1. +7
            19 June 2015 09: 32
            Sarkel, then Belaya Vezha - Khazar, later an old Russian fortress city on the left bank of the Don River. Currently located at the bottom of the Tsimlyansk reservoir. Alas, excavations were carried out, but not in full .... And then the reservoir’s waters hid the city ...
          2. +4
            19 June 2015 09: 38
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            important Khazar fortress on the Don - Sarkel
            As far as I know (I will not argue), but Sarkel was on the site of modern Volgograd, and Itil - Astrakhan. hi

            Itil in another Idel in a Turkic manner
            Volga name
            no, not in Astrakhan, a little downstream the place of this city was not found and the candidate has not yet been decided
            Sarkel has long been at the bottom of the Tsimlyansk reservoir on the Don
            1. +4
              19 June 2015 12: 41
              Quote: insafufa
              Itil in a different way. Idel in the Turkic manner, the name of the Volga is not in Astrakhan, a little downstream the place of this city was not found and it was not decided yet on the candidate

              L.N. Gumilyov pointed out that the level of the Caspian during the time elapsed since the capture of the capital of Khazaria by the troops of Svyatoslav has risen to about 25 meters to our time. Accordingly, the horizon on which the desired city was located must be sought much south of modern Astrakhan and 10-15 meters deep ... and it will not necessarily be whole, because was located in the Volga delta ... He who lived by the river, he will understand.
              1. -1
                26 June 2015 01: 45
                Quote: V.ic
                L.N. Gumilyov pointed out that the level of the Caspian during the time elapsed since the capture of Svyatoslav by the capital of the Khazaria to our time has risen by about 25 meters.

                and where did he get these numbers - 25 meters, How and where did he suck?
                1. +1
                  26 June 2015 02: 39
                  The Caspian Sea constantly fluctuates in water level, it’s a fact, even today, plus or minus 4 meters it’s the norm. It all depends on the climate. Water does not flow out from the Caspian, it evaporates hotly and rainsily replenishes. Although most researchers are inclined to say that it’s not 25 meters he retreated, and 15 meters in water level
        2. +6
          19 June 2015 09: 33
          Quote: insafufa
          And I don’t agree with many aspects of this article as a person who won more than once in the olympiads on the histories of Russia

          Well, if you know the story so well, then please comment on this engraving - Battle of Legnica (legnitz) 1241. From Legend of Saint Hedwig

          A small tip is to the left of the Tatar-Mongols in pointed Russian helmets and Cossack hats. One of them has a crown on his head and they fight under the banner with the image of Christ.
          1. +3
            19 June 2015 09: 51
            Engravings of the Middle Ages often have no connections where Tatars are portrayed under the Orthodox banners, as I said earlier, from the limited perception of the world to the extent of their education and knowledge for Europeans, all that was in the vastness of Russia was called Tartars and Russians were also called Tatars. So ask the modern Englishman what peoples live in Russia, he will answer only Russians; for all of us, we all are Russians; we ourselves don’t know many indigenous peoples; there are about 200 indigenous peoples and peoples in our country who won’t remember all. smile
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. +5
              19 June 2015 10: 49
              Quote: insafufa
              Engravings of the Middle Ages often have no connections where Tatars are portrayed under the Orthodox banners, as I said earlier, from the limited perception of the world to the extent of their education and knowledge for Europeans, all that was in the vastness of Russia was called Tartars and Russians were also called Tatars.


              Well then, here you have a Russian miniature - “The Battle of the Russians with the Tatars”. Thumbnail from the "Facial Annalistic Arch" of the XIV century. Please explain where the Russians are here and where the Tatars are. They even have the same banners. Or were Russian artists so stupid that they perceived everyone, even Asians, as their own kind?
              1. +5
                19 June 2015 11: 25
                figure a
                So many copies have been broken about this engraving that you can’t count
                You know, Turkic tribes hired both of them and many Russians wore the armor of killed warriors in battle. This is also true for the Tatars.
                figure b
                who can determine where is Russian where is Kazan military
                Figure in

                Figure g
                1. +3
                  19 June 2015 17: 18
                  Quote: insafufa
                  who can determine where is Russian where is Kazan military

                  I am for 60, I am quite an experienced and experienced person and I can identify Russians and Tatars by secondary characteristics. But even I am very often mistaken.
                  In general, Tvardovsky in "The Country of Ant" answered this question.
                  Narrow eye, plush nose
                  According to the passport Russian
                  Our main people across the Volga
                  1. +2
                    19 June 2015 17: 39
                    Quote: Centurion
                    Narrow eye, plush nose
                    According to the passport Russian
                    Our main people across the Volga

                    Khazar? Or Nogayets or Adaets? smile
                  2. 0
                    20 June 2015 06: 19
                    Well, at 60 years old, there’s no mind, it’s okay. I have a lot of Russian acquaintances who look like non-Caucasians, Jews, Bashkirs. They don’t see anything wrong with that and they don’t sign up for operations. Before the revolution, everyone who had the custom of speaking non-Russian, and whose roots east and south of the Volga were not Russian. You know this without me. Do not deny the same mass incest for hundreds of years of marriage. There is nothing wrong with this. People are insulting with such verses of others, and with jokes like unexpected guests
                    1. -1
                      21 June 2015 03: 26
                      not unexpected, but uninvited. Think about it .. the difference is big.
                    2. ivan.ru
                      +1
                      22 June 2015 14: 23
                      "jokes like unexpected guests"
                      this is not a joke, you are our philologist. this is a Russian proverb, already from the 13th century, just because of these very Tatars formed
              2. +2
                19 June 2015 21: 49
                Since when the Russian princes in the royal crowns, in the upper left corner, became the royal throne after John the Terrible. I think someone attributed the inscription on top of a later engraving, where the Russian Tsar suppresses the attempt to separate some prince.
                1. 0
                  21 June 2015 03: 27
                  good option .. interesting ...
              3. ivan.ru
                0
                22 June 2015 14: 19
                "Or Russian artists were so dumb"
                they were not so stupid, they simply did not participate in the battle that they drew, and did not know what the Tatars looked like and what banners they had. 30 years after the battle, the monks painted on the White Sea, a battle that took place somewhere near Chernigov. to draw correctly, you need to know what you are drawing. here is the first time you draw a skandibubik correctly?
                PS in those days, in the service of the Horde were Russian princes, with their squads. maybe it's just a "dispute between business entities" drawn, with mercenaries on both sides?
          2. +1
            19 June 2015 21: 39
            Christ in the royal crown ?! This is the only image or the only delirium from a bad head.
          3. +3
            20 June 2015 01: 08
            Quote: TroN
            sternerh Russians

            Everyone sees what he wants to see. Even if we forget that the engraving was most likely drawn not by an eyewitness or a warrior, but by some monk in a cell, from which he did not go out into the world, then nevertheless: 1) We see that among the soldiers on the left, much attention is paid to equestrian archers in light armor, mdyaaa, a truly Slavic branch of the army 2) We see several helmets with the top bent forward, most often I saw such helmets in the images of nomads from the Black Sea steppes, there can be anyone, for example. Mongol allies 3) "Peaked helmets". At least read where the fashion for such helmets came to Europe, and that such helmets were used en masse in different variations from Zap. Europe to China. 4) "Cossack hats" in the 13th century. - generally know comments)))

            Although the Slavic allies could well have been among the Mongol troops, the usual practice for the vanquished, perhaps they are bearded characters. I’m a patriot, but let's not skaklam be likened to inventing mythical theories, huh?
          4. -1
            21 June 2015 03: 23
            The banner does not depict Jesus Christ. Some kind of prince is depicted. For Jesus was not depicted in the crown. One question. What is a "Cossack hat"? or did you mean Turkic leather helmets?
          5. The comment was deleted.
          6. ivan.ru
            +3
            22 June 2015 14: 07
            "Little tip - Tatar-Mongols on the left"
            is it christ in the crown?
        3. -3
          19 June 2015 16: 51
          Quote: insafufa
          And I don’t agree with many aspects of this article as a person who won more than once in the olympiads on the histories of Russia


          This article is a political pamphlet to please the fans of the Fomenkovs and Nosovs. And also for the sake of the notorious direction of the Russian spirit. The article contains a lot of juggling, inconsistencies, distortions to say only one thing - Crimea is "natively" Russian. To make it clearer, you will have to start from afar.

          5000 years ago, Iranian-speaking Indo-European tribes of the Aryans wandered in the steppe zone of eastern Europe. And then they began to wander further, beyond the Volga. And settled vast open spaces - the Volga region, Trans-Urals, Kazakhstan, Central Asia, southern Siberia, to the upper Yenisei. It is the graves of the Aryans of the Iranian-speaking group who are now digging in northern Mongolia. The names of the Aryan tribes are Scythians, Sarmatians, Saks, Massagets, Habomai, Ephthalites, Tochars, etc.

          In the ancestral home of the Turks, the steppes of modern Mongolia, in the 2nd century BC, a tribal union of Turks formed under the leadership of the leader Mode. Chinese chronicles call them Huns. In the 2nd century, the Iranian-speaking Indo-Europeans of the Aryan group, in the upper Yenisei and in the Baraba steppes of the northern slopes of Altai, were assimilated by the Hunnu Turks.

          In the 1st century AD part of the Huns moved to Xinjian and southeastern Kazakhstan. Where assimilated Saks, massagets and others. In the 2nd century, other Huns moved to northern Kazakhstan, the Volga region, and the Urals. Where the Eastern Scythians, Sarmatians, Ugro-Finnish tribes were assimilated. In the 6th century, during the era of the first Türkic Kaganate, the Aryans of Central Asia - Tochars and others were assimilated. Thus, vast territories became Turkic-speaking. And it is precisely from assimilation with the Indo-Europeans that the Turks meet blue-eyed and straw-haired.

          In the 4th century, a mixture of tribes of the Urals and the Volga region, but already speaking Turkic, moved to derban Europe. And there they began to pronounce their name in a European way - the Huns.
          1. -4
            19 June 2015 17: 35
            Quote: Altar
            And there they began to pronounce their name in a European way - the Huns.


            After the death of Attila, his Huns disappeared into the peoples of Europe.

            The Huns remaining in the Volga and Ural regions, that is, a cross between tribes and peoples, but speaking Turkic, became the progenitors of proto-Bulgarian tribes. These Turkic Bulgars and Turkic Khazars emerged from these Proto-Bulgarians. By the 7th century, the Khazars became more powerful and the Bulgars began to press. The Bulgars were divided under this onslaught. A part rose up the Volga and at the confluence of the Kama River formed the Volga Bulgaria, which later became modern Tatarstan. Another part of the Bulgars, led by Khan Asparuh, migrated to the north-eastern Balkans, subjugated the local Slavic population and formed the Bulgarian Khanate, which later became present-day Bulgaria.

            The Khazars, on the liberated lands with part of the Crimea, formed up to the Dnieper Khazar Khaganate.

            Prior to this, Iranian Jews fled from Iran to Khazaria, from the civil war. They were received by the Khazars and lived together, but separately. In the middle of the 7th century, the Khazars with Jews stopped the Arab-Islamic expansion into the North Caucasus. And life is life, mixed marriages began to appear. And the social status of the children of these marriages was different. Children from a Jew and Khazars were considered half-breeds; they could not advance along the social ladder. The children of the Khazars and Jewish women had double protection. So, Jewry is designated by mother, therefore, children from the Khazar and Jewess, Jews, were considered their own. And they received all-round community assistance. But at the same time, the Khazarian’s father, Bek or Tarkhan, rendered all possible assistance to their children in advancement. It was from the half-bloods of a Jew with a Khazar that Karaites came about. They spoke Turkic and professed simplified Judaism.

            Over time, the children of the Khazars and Jews took leading places and in the end, power passed to the Jews in the person of Bulan and entrenched under Obadiah.

            The defeat of Khazaria was mainly carried out by the Pechenegs. The Karaites fled to the Crimea. And from there, at one time they were resettled by Prince Vitovt to Lithuania as a replenishment of the light cavalry. And Crimea was not "primordially" Russian. He later became Russian as a result of the colonial takeover.
            1. +3
              20 June 2015 08: 56
              Altar
              It seems that for 3 millennia you ran around and kept a candle.)))))
              Decrypt your famous assimilated. It's very interesting to hear how you imagine it.
              1. -2
                20 June 2015 09: 40
                Quote: Cossack Ermak
                It seems that for 3 millennia you ran around and kept a candle.)))))


                Did the author of the article also run with a candle? You have a philistine - when there are no counterarguments - but he himself kept a candle, etc.

                The koment of the Altar is historical work, when there were still no references and Fomenkovs.

                This is the work of professors from St. Petersburg University Klyashtorny and Sultanov. Proceedings of Gumilyov.
                1. +2
                  20 June 2015 22: 21
                  Quote: Portal
                  Quote: Cossack Ermak
                  It seems that for 3 millennia you ran around and kept a candle.)))))


                  Did the author of the article also run with a candle? You have a philistine - when there are no counterarguments - but he himself kept a candle, etc.

                  The koment of the Altar is historical work, when there were still no references and Fomenkovs.

                  This is the work of professors from St. Petersburg University Klyashtorny and Sultanov. Proceedings of Gumilyov.

                  I also do not believe in absolute truth, as the author of the article, and the comments of the respected The altar. Therefore, he questioned his apostolic speech. This is just one of the opinions.
                  1. -1
                    21 June 2015 09: 03
                    Quote: Cossack Ermak
                    Therefore, he questioned his apostolic speech. This is just one of the opinions.


                    So doubt is the hypostasis of man. And it should be. No doubt there is no truth. But that's what I must say, I doubt I have other data. And not to dishonor, humiliating another - and what are you holding a candle.
              2. +1
                20 June 2015 10: 05
                [quote = Cossack Ermak] Decipher your famous assimilated. It is very interesting to hear how you imagine it. [/ Quote

                Well. I will answer for the Altar. Assimilation is one year, one people absorbs another. When one people migrates to the territory of another, mixed marriages, interpenetration of cultures, and language take place. But the language of the dominant tribe becomes the base language. In this case, Turkic.

                In the Turkic languages, about 25% of the words are of Aryan, Iranian-speaking origin. For example, Stan is Iranian Earth. Hence Uzbekistan, Tatarstan, that is, the land of the Uzbeks, the land of the Tatars. And already from the Turkic language, Stan switched to Russian.

                Navruz. New Year. Celebrated on the vernal equinox. This holiday originated in the steppes of Kazakhstan among the Aryans of the Iranian-speaking group as an attribute of the religion of Zoroastrianism. It was then that Zoroastrianism descended into Iran and became the state religion. So, the Turks, during the assimilation of the Aryans, adopted this holiday.

                Elements of Aryan clothing are preserved in Turkic clothing. For example, pointed caps.
                1. +1
                  21 June 2015 03: 33
                  a question was asked to the Altar. Will you finish everything for him? I am surprised that she went for fashion - to answer questions not asked to you.
                  PS I almost fell into rudeness ...
                  The man grunted and into the mud, and you go broke. Let the discussions run smoothly.
                  Or you and the Altar are one and the same. Judging by the dates of registration - it may well be. One to the baseboard zaminusili with his nonsense, started a second acc and let's repeat and support the first ....
                  1. +1
                    21 June 2015 18: 41
                    Quote: Russian063
                    Or you and the Altar are one and the same. Judging by the dates of registration - it may well be. One to the baseboard zaminusili with his nonsense, started a second acc and let's repeat and support the first ....


                    And how to get two accounts on one computer? Tell me. I will not hide that I am familiar with the Altar and nothing more.

                    I am returning yours to you. If I intervened in the dialogue between the Cossack and the Altar, in your opinion, it’s not fair (although what is it that 3-4 or more people participate in the conversation, like here many people speak on the same topic) then what are you stuck between me and Cossack.
                    1. 0
                      26 June 2015 01: 55
                      Quote: Portal
                      And how to get two accounts on one computer? Tell me. I will not hide that I am familiar with the Altar and nothing more.

                      logically, from different browsers, and even from different systems, well, of course, there should be several different boxes.
                      I have one profile on the site, but on the Internet I have from 4 computers at the same time on the home computer and laptop there are 2 OSes — a window and Linux.
                      1. 0
                        26 June 2015 09: 18
                        Quote: 4-th Paradise
                        I have one profile on the site, but on the Internet I have from 4 computers at the same time on the home computer and laptop there are 2 OSes — a window and Linux.


                        For me it is a dark forest. I am not of that generation. I am illiterate in computer troubles. And all sorts of windows and Linux mean nothing to me.
                      2. 0
                        28 June 2015 11: 51
                        Quote: Portal
                        For me it is a dark forest. I am not of that generation. I am illiterate in computer troubles.

                        and what is wrong? I myself was born in the 60s. My mother is more than 70 years old, but even then she works on a computer, uses online stores ...
          2. 0
            19 June 2015 19: 04
            These fictions written by cabinet workers of the Romanov era we already passed in school, only recently so many artifacts, DNA genealogical information, ethnographic data, etc., indicate that these are compositions. which are not confirmed by anything.
          3. +2
            20 June 2015 19: 21
            Quote: Altar
            In the ancestral home of the Turks, the steppes of modern Mongolia, in the 2nd century BC, a tribal union of Turks formed under the leadership of the leader Mode. Chinese chronicles call them Huns. In the 2nd century, the Iranian-speaking Indo-Europeans of the Aryan group, in the upper Yenisei and in the Baraba steppes of the northern slopes of Altai, were assimilated by the Hunnu Turks.

            In the 1st century AD part of the Huns moved to Xinjian and southeastern Kazakhstan. Where assimilated Saks, massagets and others. In the 2nd century, other Huns moved to northern Kazakhstan, the Volga region, and the Urals. Where the Eastern Scythians, Sarmatians, Ugro-Finnish tribes were assimilated. In the 6th century, during the era of the first Türkic Kaganate, the Aryans of Central Asia - Tochars and others were assimilated. Thus, vast territories became Turkic-speaking. And it is precisely from assimilation with the Indo-Europeans that the Turks meet blue-eyed and straw-haired.

            it’s known about the hun that they migrated west from ancient China and nothing more. There is no evidence at all of your words, given that back in the 4th century, the Usuns dominated the region of eastern Kazakhstan and western Kyrgyzstan and had their own state with which the Chinese traded.
            and so on.
            I understand that you need to prove the great of Kazakhstan, but archeology with history does not like deception.
            1. 0
              20 June 2015 21: 05
              Quote: 4-th Paradise
              I understand that you need to prove the great of Kazakhstan, but archeology with history does not like deception.


              Judging by the text, the Altar does not say a word about greatness. And he does not talk about modern Kazakhstan and the Kazakhs. For some reason other people’s facts like you cause a gnashing of teeth because you perceive it as your humiliation.

              And the facts. You didn’t read anything because you don’t know. I won’t rummage through and search for chapters and pages to poke your nose. Work yourself, read Gumilyov, Klyashtorny. And then firmly declare that there was no resettlement of the Huns in the 1st and 2nd century.

              Simple. If the steppes of Kazakhstan were settled by Indo-Europeans, and the Huns did not resettle, then where did the Turks come from in the Volga and Ural regions?
              1. +1
                21 June 2015 01: 33
                Quote: Portal
                Judging by the text, the Altar does not say a word about greatness. And he does not talk about modern Kazakhstan and the Kazakhs. For some reason other people’s facts like you cause a gnashing of teeth because you perceive it as your humiliation.

                Where am I talking about greatness? learn to read for a start ...
                Quote: Portal
                Work yourself, read Gumilyov, Klyashtorny.

                Believe me, I read, and not only Gumilev. Gumilev is generally a great storyteller. Often puts forward theories that do not have real confirmation. And sometimes even contradicts himself.
                Quote: Portal
                And then firmly declare that there was no resettlement of the Huns in the 1st and 2nd century.
                was, but the question is WHERE EXACTLY and how far from the borders of China.
                Quote: Portal
                Simple. If the steppes of Kazakhstan were settled by Indo-Europeans, and the Huns did not resettle, then where did the Turks come from in the Volga and Ural regions?
                And who told you that the Huns were Türks? Even the Chinese did not know who they were. The most ancient people about which they prove that he spoke the Turkic language were Usuns. The Chinese learned about them in the first century BC. The center of the Usuns was seven rivers, but in the east they lived, including on the territory of the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of China. And their state lasted until the 5th century.
                1. 0
                  21 June 2015 08: 58
                  Quote: 4-th Paradise
                  Where am I talking about greatness?


                  Here are your words -
                  Quote: 4-th Paradise
                  I understand that you need to prove the great of Kazakhstan,


                  In Gumilyov, I also do not perceive everything, for example, his theory of passionarity. But I recognize the main stratum of his research.

                  Not from the borders of China. The tribal union of the Huns created by Mode in the 2nd century BC, on the territory of present-day Mongolia, by the 1st century BC began to fall apart with a military confrontation. And half of the Huns migrated to Xinjian and Southeast Kazakhstan. To the land of the Ephthalites, Sakks, Khabomaev, Massagets (Indo-Europeans of the Aryan group). And assimilated them.

                  2nd century AD The eastern border between the Türkic-speaking Huns and the Manchu tribes passed along the Khingan. One of the associations of the Manchu tribes, the Syanbi, which under Genghis Khan will be called the Mongols, under the leadership of the leader Tianshikha, made a military campaign against the Hun. And most of the Huns were supplanted in central and northern Kazakhstan. After the campaign, the xianbi returned to their habitat. Huns caught in Kazakhstan spread to the Volga and Ural regions. And the Eastern Scythians, Sarmatians, Ugro-Finns were assimilated. Blood assimilation was different. That is why the Tatars have both Caucasians and Asians. But the Chuvash so generally adopted only the language. But the language in these regions became Turkic.

                  Yes. Some researchers leave the question of the linguistic affiliation of the Huns open. Others attribute it to Turkic. But, the language of the Huns could not be Hindi or Urdu, it could only be either the Manchu group (Mongolian) or Turkic. If Manchurian, then the language of the steppes of Kazakhstan, the indigenous inhabitants of the Urals and the Volga region should have been Manchurian. But there is no such thing. The language of these regions is Turkic. Or that the Turkic language to the Tatars, Chuvashs, Bashkirs, Kazakhs fell from the sky.
                  1. +2
                    21 June 2015 11: 46
                    All your arguments are just brilliant. Logically develop and are similar to the truth. But they begin with an unverified fact that you have taken as an axiom. The Huns were Türks. Prove it and I will believe you. But you have no evidence.
                    1. 0
                      21 June 2015 12: 35
                      Quote: Cossack Ermak
                      But they begin with an unverified fact that you have taken as an axiom. The Huns were Türks. Prove it and I will believe you. But you have no evidence.


                      But I said above - There are no direct unequivocal, universally recognized facts about the Huns belonging to the Turkic-speaking tribes. Some researchers attribute the Hunnic language to Manchu, while others to Turkic. The language of the Huns was unwritten. One word is known that experts refer to Turkic. This is either a boot or a quiver.

                      But the logical course of historical processes suggests that the Hunnic language was Turkic. As I said above - the Hunnic language could only be Manchu or Turkic groups.

                      The resettlement of part of the Huns in Semirechye and Xinjiang in the 1st century is recorded in history - the Chinese chronicle. The crowding out of the Huns by the xianbi tribes in the 2nd century is also a fact - the Chinese chronicle.

                      Now the question is where did the Indo-Europeans of the Aryan group, who lived in this territory for millennia, got to? Killed. But in any war, mostly men die, and women become wives. Where did the Indo-European language of the Iranian group go? The answer is one indigenous population was assimilated by the Huns.

                      So - assimilation has occurred. There should be one common language. If the Hunnu is Manchurian then the language of the steppes of Kazakhstan, the Volga region, the Urals was to become Manchurian. But not even the roots. The language became Turkic. That is, the Türkic language was introduced by the Huns.

                      If otherwise, then the language of the indigenous inhabitants of the Volga region, Central Asia, the Urals, Kazakhstan should have been any, but not Turkic.
                      1. 0
                        26 June 2015 02: 12
                        But I said above - There are no direct unequivocal, universally recognized facts about the Huns belonging to the Turkic-speaking tribes. Some researchers attribute the Hunnic language to Manchu, while others to Turkic. The language of the Huns was unwritten. One word is known that experts refer to Turkic. This is either a boot or a quiver.
                        ..... not even a word. There is no written language, there are no inscriptions in another alphabet, mention words in other languages, also not there, except for a couple of names ... But are these specialists some kind of storytellers?
                        The language of the Huns could only be Manchu or Turkic groups.
                        The Turkic language at that time was not yet fixed by neighbors. But the Mongolian was already there, so you have another mistake.
                  2. 0
                    26 June 2015 02: 04
                    Quote: Portal
                    Not from the borders of China. The tribal union of the Huns created by Mode in the 2nd century BC, on the territory of present-day Mongolia, by the 1st century BC began to fall apart with a military confrontation. And half of the Huns migrated to Xinjian and Southeast Kazakhstan. To the land of the Ephthalites, Sakks, Khabomaev, Massagets (Indo-Europeans of the Aryan group). And assimilated them.

                    sources other than Gumilyov and his followers. There are no these sources. A fairy tale composed by Gumilev, and a fairy tale that has no evidence, just like his other tale that ancient China fought against the Roman legion and defeated it in the first battle.
          4. 0
            21 June 2015 03: 30
            even with numbers, even with dates, your post does not inspire confidence, because it was written by an illiterate person. check the grammar if you can’t write yourself without errors.
            1. +1
              21 June 2015 18: 54
              Quote: Russian063
              even with numbers, even with dates, your post does not inspire confidence, because it was written by an illiterate person. check the grammar if you can’t write yourself without errors.


              About literacy - there are typos especially when in a hurry. This time. The second to write correctly means only knowledge of grammar and syntax. And it does not mean in any way about the possession of a person by this or that sphere.

              You are our literate, why are you writing the sentence not with a capital letter.

              Do not recognize mine, so it is your business. There is a god, and there is a threshold. But do not blame a person on this disagreement. You disagree - give your facts, dates, sources. If you don’t have them, then why unfold yourself.
        4. 0
          20 June 2015 19: 05
          Quote: insafufa
          I ask you to comment on your disagreement, and not in the quiet - to put it so much more interesting

          and what is there to comment, the author reads not only scientific literature, but also fairy tales. Therefore, I personally can’t give an estimate. On the one hand, a thoughtful approach is a plus. And on the other hand, complete nonsense, a clear minus.
  4. +2
    19 June 2015 08: 02
    about the Slavic population of Crimea still all right, but about "Tartrtaria", "Scythia" and "Romanov-Germans" - a complete enclosure. Why? Yes, everything is simple: Suppose that all the Aryans are white-haired and light-eyed, then what is the point of the Rus to call them "straw-headed"? It turns out that the Russians are dark-haired? And then it turns out that the Rus are not Aryans, but since Iran is the Country of Aryans, but the Scythians are "Iranian". That Slavs are not Scythians.
    Another question. If there is an empire, then there must be traces of it? Definitely. North America is also great and there, too, the great Mongoloids roamed about, but for some reason we know about the Incas, Aztecs and Mayans, but we do not know about Great Dakotia, etc. And why? Climate. We have Mesopotamia, the Mediterranean, China and Korea, India. Let us then unite the Chukchi Nenets and Evenks into the Great Northern Country! Tunguses? Khanty Mansi - Finno-Ugrians, Bulgars, Hungarians, Komi, Finns - Great Central Finnougory. And the Kazakhs? Aren't they Caucasians? Mixes. And why then the "Mongols" could not be Mongoloids? And why do you think that the Slavs or Cumans were the central link of the Great Scythia. All historians have Huns (Hungarians - Finno-Ugrians - Caucasians) in an alliance with the Slavs, Alans in an alliance with the C, the Goths of the VSSS. You still have Etruscans and the Vatican. Facts, facts and nothing but facts!
    1. +4
      19 June 2015 08: 24
      The answer is probably here:
      1. +3
        19 June 2015 08: 29
        There was one true Aryan in history and now we are breaking there
        Well, when will these Aryans be left alone
        1. +7
          19 June 2015 08: 56
          Quote: insafufa
          There was one true Aryan in history

          Well, here is another victim of the exam. lolNo offense, he’s like that. But somehow I’m trying to get out of this swamp.
          And I realized that the concept of "true Aryan" and Aryan did not stand nearby. And the forbidden swastika, and much more, were not lying around.
          But how convenient.
          I heard the Aryan-before my eyes, antennae.
          I saw a swastika in front of my eyes, antennae.
          No need to think.
          1. +5
            19 June 2015 09: 58
            Quote: Babr
            Quote: insafufa
            There was one true Aryan in history

            Well, here is another victim of the exam. lolNo offense, he’s like that. But somehow I’m trying to get out of this swamp.

            God was merciful; it was not possible to feel how the USE had finished school before this disgrace
            I also got that Soviet school a little but thanks for that
            I just wanted to laugh at how many peoples in their roots are looking for traces of the Aryans as they once looked for fur laughing
            1. +7
              19 June 2015 10: 14
              I got 100% of the Soviet school. But I have been "looking" for traces of the Aryans since 1985, since the 7th grade, because even then it was clear: Karamzin / Kostomarov and Soviet historians will not be full.
              1. 0
                19 June 2015 10: 50
                Quote: andrew42
                But I have been "looking" for traces of the Aryans since 1985, since the 7th grade, because even then it was clear: Karamzin / Kostomarov and Soviet historians will not be full.

                Well, there Klesov tells (video from above) how all this happens. It was in Soviet times and now.
                Do not stop.
                You look and on your (on our) street there will be a holiday. hi
            2. +2
              19 June 2015 10: 40
              Quote: insafufa
              I also got that Soviet school a little but thanks for that

              I realized that you understood me lolAnd below you giggle again.
              Quote: insafufa
              I just wanted to laugh at how many peoples in their roots are looking for traces of the Aryans as they once looked for fur

              Or was he on the right track? With a perverse understanding.
              If you dig up the whole vinigret that the Internet provides, can we find common roots with the Germans? Again without braiding the antennae here lol
              1. +1
                19 June 2015 11: 46
                Nice to deal with people with a sense of humor. smile
                1. +2
                  19 June 2015 12: 18
                  Quote: insafufa
                  Nice to deal with people with a sense of humor.

                  Yes, the only way to find a common language. Without malice. hi
        2. +3
          19 June 2015 10: 12
          That's when the haplogroup R1a is torn out of the genome, then peace will come. In the meantime, have to live with it.
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. +1
              19 June 2015 12: 46
              Quote: War and Peace
              just like that, what about this?

              If the swastika was depicted "on salt", it would be good.
              1. +3
                19 June 2015 14: 01
                Quote: V.ic
                If the swastika was depicted "on salt", it would be good.

                Few people pay attention to the "wrapped" swastika. +
            2. -1
              19 June 2015 12: 47
              Quote: War and Peace
              just like that, what about this?

              If the swastika was depicted "on salt", it would be good.
            3. +2
              19 June 2015 18: 16
              By the way, this is a kakarda of the Kalmyk red cavalry, they also have chevrons.
              41 they "heroically" crossed ...
              And how the Dzungars pestered the Kazakhs ..., the Nogays and the Crimeans .... The royal people had "beloved" people, they were not Muslims after all ...
              1. ivan.ru
                0
                22 June 2015 14: 40
                "kakarda of the Kalmyk red cavalry"

                it actually says the RSFSR. in the 20s, the swastika was popular in the symbolism of Soviet Russia
          2. The comment was deleted.
        3. +3
          19 June 2015 11: 46
          Quote: insafufa
          Well, when will these Aryans be left alone


          but when will this damned story about the Aryans end?
          Here, for example, a swastika or a Kolovrat in Russian, what to do with it? after all, the Russians have always had Kolovrats in their culture and there were no fascists yet, and you say "at rest" we cannot part with our culture ...
          1. +3
            19 June 2015 20: 35
            Quote: war and peace
            after all, the Russian Kolovrats have always been in culture
            Where and in what museum can this "always" be seen?
            1. 0
              19 June 2015 20: 50
              Quote: Uncle Joe
              Where and in what museum can this "always" be seen?

              And you, seriously, somewhere in the museums there is an exposition before the baptism of Russia. There were blurred memories in Moscow, but I remembered the Yoshkar-Ole museum of local lore well, they just didn’t rush it right.
              I know the customs of the Mari, mother, that the forest is holy. Food ... although they are baptized, but not to the end. smile
          2. +1
            21 June 2015 14: 56
            This is when in Russia they began to call the swastika a Kolovrat? Not in the 90s from the filing of a former telemaster from Omsk?
        4. The comment was deleted.
        5. The comment was deleted.
        6. +2
          19 June 2015 11: 54
          is this also "leave alone"? so we will never understand our history, we will not listen to you, but we will continue to study history, not yours, but the real one ..
          1. +7
            19 June 2015 14: 05
            You do not study it, you invent it. These are different things.
        7. The comment was deleted.
      2. +4
        19 June 2015 09: 03
        People do a good thing.
        From the beginning they don’t notice you,
        then they make fun of you
        then they declare war on you
        In the end you win !!!! fellow
        Not I said Indira Gandhi.
      3. +1
        19 June 2015 10: 07
        Quote: andrei.yandex
        The answer is probably here:

        Thank you for the video. In many ways, my worldview was supported by scientific genetic data.))
      4. +3
        19 June 2015 15: 14
        Although you write "Scientific conference" in arshin letters, it will not become scientific. And Klesov is a scientist.
      5. +1
        20 June 2015 19: 34
        Quote: andrei.yandex
        The answer is probably here:
        belay
        he is a physicist, a geneticist, and a linguist .. But has he not yet become a goldsmith? At the gold mine, only 5 years of study and 10 apprentices ... wink
        In general, it’s time for Klesov to turn to a psychiatrist, there are many of them in the USA.
      6. 0
        21 June 2015 14: 53
        Klyosov is also that obscurantist. It is enough to find and read an article about it on anthropogenesis
    2. +8
      19 June 2015 09: 06
      Quote: Penzuck
      Facts, facts and nothing but facts!

      Do you need facts? You are welcome:
      if we talk about the conditional date of the beginning of Russian culture, then, according to my understanding, I would consider the most reasonable year 988. Is it necessary to delay anniversary dates in the depths of time? Do we need a two-thousand-year or one and a half-thousand-year date? With our world achievements in the field of all types of arts, such a date is unlikely to exalt Russian culture. The main thing that has been done by the Eastern Slavs for world culture has been done over the past millennium. The rest are merely estimated values. http://1000vladimir.ru/2015/03/31/kreshhenie-rusi-i-gosudarstvo-rus-statya-akade


      mika-ds-lixacheva /

      These are the words of the "great" historian-academician D. Likhachev.
      This mud ... wrote off the entire culture and history of pagan Russia in one phrase. You see, she's only "supposed". As if there was no Gostosmysl, no Rurik, no Oleg, no Svyatoslav. And our knights did not nail shields over the gates of Tsar Grad, did not lead flotillas across the Black (Russian) Sea.
      Read on for such "historians" as well as Miller, Schletzer and Bayer. Then you will definitely not have facts of another history of Russia.

      1. +1
        19 June 2015 10: 13
        Interestingly, Lomonosov really beat the face of Schlötzer and Miller for distorting Russian history?
        1. 0
          19 June 2015 23: 04
          And how did they distort it specifically?
        2. 0
          21 June 2015 14: 57
          See less satirists who steal jokes from the Internet
      2. -1
        20 June 2015 09: 48
        Quote: TroN
        Do you need facts? You are welcome:

        Facts where? 1. You defamed Likhachev. 2. You argue with the lichachev about the existence of Rurik. 3. And advise me to read the scientists with whom they disagree.
        Where are the facts !?

        6th century Tyushtya, the national hero of the Mordovians, collects the FIRST Mokshan-Erzyan militia, the first field training, games. From this moment. Hunters, beekeepers, herders, gatherers and farmers become warriors. This is from oral folk sources that were collected by Russian scientists. what can you tell us about the Vyatichi? Krivichi? Tivertsakh, etc. Introduce a group of 100 people. old people grandfathers parents at the head of the rest serve them, family kind. then these clans wander, grow and interact, places of exchange trade, hunters 'camps, cattle pens, farmers' settlements are formed. The clans are united into tribes. WHERE there are more connections and more often interaction, stable settlements are formed. Summer (for summer), winter huts (permanent) and strongholds in hard-to-reach places. then, as you understand, tribal unions are formed. For the management of the family, a father is sufficient, for a clan one elder, for a tribe a council of elders or a leader. In Rome, as you know, 7 settlements on the hills united into a Roman tribe. And all the aristocracy, patricians, etc. come from these seven surnames. The rest of the "Italians" are plebs with limited rights. Republic!
        senate = council of elders. the emperor is the leader. the course of historical development cannot be broken!
        I do not think that the "advanced" Aryan herders have bypassed the "dense" Finno-Ugrians. In 988 the Bulgars subjugated the Dalmatia (South Slavs) at the expense of bows and horses (Scythian tactics), the Saxons, Franks and others fight with the Western "cultural" Slavs and win. The Germans at the expense of iron. the Caucasus and Central Asia, more favorable for life, exert demographic pressure from the south on the eastern Slavs through Khazaria. So why are the Slavs more cultured? Bulgars are part of the Scythians, Alans, Goths, etc., the Germans also fled to the Rhine from the east. So you can say at least about 1000000000000000 years of Slavic culture, but neither you nor your ancestors will become more cultured.
        1. +1
          20 June 2015 23: 43
          Quote: Penzuck
          ... you can say at least about the 1000000000000000 summer culture of the Slavs, but neither you nor your ancestors will become more cultured.

          Exactly the same thing can be said about the Turks, Germans, Chinese, etc., etc. ...
          Every sandpiper praises its swamp.
          1. 0
            22 June 2015 16: 59
            Quote: Penzuck
            . So what are the Slavs more cultured? Bulgars - part of Scythia, Alans, Goths etc, the Germans also resorted to the Rhine from the east. So we can say even about the 1000000000000000 summer culture of the Slavs, but neither you nor your ancestors will become more cultural.

            Quote: PENZYAC
            Exactly the same thing can be said and about the Turks, Germans, Chinese and so on, so on ...
            Every sandpiper praises its swamp.

            Land, Since I decided to show my mind so at least read my comment to the end. And respect me with facts and not idle talk.
  5. +3
    19 June 2015 08: 10
    Correctly said:
    He who does not know the past has no future. Thank you for the article.
  6. +5
    19 June 2015 08: 11
    And again, criminally little has been written about Svyatoslav. But approaching July 3. By the way, it is quite suitable for the day of Russia-Russia.
  7. +4
    19 June 2015 08: 18
    In the article, the spelling would be corrected, but about the super-ethnos of the Slavs "They were classic northern Caucasians" I want to believe, but with little evidence. I am also inclined not to trust Western sources of "textbooks" from the Romanovs, but there are other historical works, for example, from the Persians / Arabs and their version of history does not coincide with the version given in the article. In general, it is not necessary to wishful thinking. All the same, "Genghis Khan" does not pull on the Slavic name.
    1. +8
      19 June 2015 08: 57
      Quote: heruv1me
      yes about the super-ethnos of the Slavs "They were classic northern Caucasians" I want to believe, but with little evidence

      Recently, the Koreans shuddered together in ecstasy when they found graves in Korea 8-6 thousand years BC. They immediately announced the "great Koreans". Imagine their surprise and annoyance when the reconstruction of the skulls led to the fact that they were Europioids. To their credit, they, unlike the same Kazakhs, did not change anything in scientific reports in order to equalize everything to the "official history of the state". Google it.
      Plus, I wrote about the ice graves of Mongolia. There it was also proved that Scythians were Caucasians living in inner Mongolia.
      1. -1
        19 June 2015 11: 26
        Quote: Cossack Ermak
        Recently, Koreans amicably startled in ecstasy, finding graves in Korea

        Finding this portrait of Ermak, I flinched the same belay Jew?
        Stavropol Museum of Fine Arts
        1. +7
          19 June 2015 12: 27
          Quote: Babr
          Quote: Cossack Ermak
          Recently, Koreans amicably startled in ecstasy, finding graves in Korea

          Finding this portrait of Ermak, I flinched the same belay Jew?
          Stavropol Museum of Fine Arts

          Yes, this is a portrait of Ermak. But Moisha Kolomoisky posed. wink
          For reference. During the time of Ermak in Russia, even tsars did not paint portraits in oil.
          1. +2
            19 June 2015 12: 44
            Quote: Cossack Ermak
            Yes, this is a portrait of Ermak. But Moisha Kolomoisky posed

            Well. I am silent. good But about the colors ..... did not ask such a question, you have to dig.
            After all, on such "little things" you can get an idea of ​​where the truth is, where the truth is, where is an outright lie.
        2. 0
          22 June 2015 15: 27
          Ermak from the Cossack robbers was. Well, a Cossack - a sea robber with a beard, a spear and chain mail - is aerobatics, I want to say.
          This was probably painted by Don Ki Hota, but the customer decided to change the subject, for example. Do not redraw, but the signature on the picture was changed. We have such full examples in history.
          1. 0
            26 June 2015 01: 37
            Quote: YakimovSS
            Ermak from the Cossack robbers was. Well, a Cossack - a sea robber with a beard, a spear and chain mail - is aerobatics, I want to say.
            This was probably painted by Don Ki Hota, but the customer decided to change the subject, for example. Do not redraw, but the signature on the picture was changed.

            I do not know who the artist painted, but the Volga and Don Cossacks of that time made extensive use of chain mail and armor. The steppes were their main opponents. ...
    2. +1
      21 June 2015 00: 00
      Quote: heruv1me
      ... All the same, "Genghis Khan" does not pull on the Slavic name.

      So what? Does this mean that he (Genghis Khan) was a Mongoloid? And is it, if a Caucasoid, then certainly a Slav (or, for example, a German)? Could proto-Türks, for example, not be Caucasians genetically related to the Slavs? Yes, and at that time not only mom and dad could give names ...
      However, what difference is Caucasoid or Mongoloid? Why are some better or worse than others? We are all one species - homo sapins sapiens, we are all human, we are all human ...
      All this was so long ago and so overgrown with layers of all kinds of lies, both destructive and embellishing, that isolating the truth is now incredibly difficult, if at all possible, but it is still necessary to strive for this.
  8. +4
    19 June 2015 08: 33
    Klyosov A.A. DNA scientist - genealogy gives its answer to the past:
    By the way, he has already published several books: "Slavs, Caucasians, Jews from the point of view of DNA - genealogy", "Aryan peoples in the vastness of Eurasia", "Entertaining DNA genealogy", ...
    1. 0
      21 June 2015 15: 01
      > Klyosov A.A. scientist from science
      I would argue with that
      http://antropogenez.ru/review/814/
  9. +2
    19 June 2015 08: 35
    It was interesting to read, thanks to the author.
  10. -1
    19 June 2015 09: 13
    [quote = insafufa] There was one true Aryan in history and we are now breaking there too
    Well, when will these Aryans be left alone
    Everyone wants to be special and great as proto-ukroarii, therefore they easily believe in works about deep antiquity and singularity, myths about the "great white civilization of the Aryans" take root in the heads of proud and vain people, and what that is oppressed.
    Enemies see this weakness of people and play on it.
    1. +3
      19 June 2015 10: 32
      From my point of view, there is nothing wrong with the fact that people call themselves the ancestors of the Aryans. It is important that they put in different meanings, some consider them to be gods, others to be a more developed people who migrate, as a result of climate change, planted somewhere, somewhere passed on their more advanced culture. But what they called themselves is unknown. But most likely they domesticated other peoples to a greater extent, through the transfer of all third-party knowledge about the universe. Take India by the way, as their scholars who know ancient Sanskrit argue that there is no closer Russian and Sanskrit, and the Indians do not speak it. That's it. You need not be conceited, but study your past and be worthy of your ancestors. And to be creators, and not, as the former "Minister of Education" Fursenko said, that you need to create a consumer.
    2. 0
      28 June 2015 12: 11
      Quote: Velizariy
      There was one true Aryan in history

      There were and are many "true" Aryans. First of all, these are the Hindus of the 3 highest varnas, who were twice assessed. Secondly, these are the ancient Tajiks and Scythians, possibly the Slavs, but the latter is not a fact.
  11. 0
    19 June 2015 09: 27
    Why does everyone want to be descendants of the Aarians, who are they at all? Why are the Aryans, and not the ancient Chinese, or miracles, or Khanty?
    1. 0
      28 June 2015 12: 31
      because the first Indo-Europeans were Aryans. \ later they separated and began to be called Indo-Europeans and Indo-Iranians or Arians in modern history, and then they separated from Indo-Iranians.
      Historians recognize only three of the most ancient civilizations, and the Indian Aryans are among them. For some, to consider themselves Aryans means to recognize themselves as a descendant of the first "highly cultured" peoples and not barbarians. like the Germans or Celts.
      At the same time, modern historians in every possible way keep silent about the excavations in Ukraine, southern Russia and the "Country of Cities" of the Sintasht culture in the foothills of the southern Urals. But it was there that the most ancient sewage system was found. in the world, although there are two of them on Wikipedia at once, the most ancient laughing
  12. +3
    19 June 2015 09: 45
    in the year 1981 in the Golubitskaya-Taman Peninsula, a test excavation was carried out. Archaeologists have unearthed the Detinets here - the military-administrative center of the ancient Russian city with an area of ​​7 hectares. From the bowels of the earth fragments of Byzantine glazed ceramics, amphora, slate spindles, millstones, a product of "military subjects" were extracted - a stone mold for casting the details of the belts of the warrior worn by Russian soldiers, as well as 3 iron-making hearths (furnaces) with a lot of metal slag. Ore could be both local and delivered from Korchev.
    The city, on the site of the village of Golubitskaya, arose in the 30s of the 27th century, in Arabic sources it is called Russia, that is, much earlier than ancient Kiev and Novgorod. This settlement on the shores of the Sea of ​​Azov lasted until the XIV century. The Arab historian Idrisi, who lived in the XI century, gives the distance from the city of Tmutarakan (the modern village of Taman) to Russia on the Sea of ​​Azov, 54 Arab miles, which is modern 4 km. This corresponds exactly to the distance from Taman to the village of Golubitskaya on the Sea of ​​Azov. Therefore, a large article on this subject was published on XNUMX pages in the Izvestia newspaper. The expedition leader, the author of the article, argued that if the excavations were to be continued, the history of the origin of Russia should be reviewed. , excavations have not been conducted since then. How are, for example, on the Fanagoria, therefore, there is not so much open information on this topic.
  13. +1
    19 June 2015 11: 00
    Naive article. The author dumped the Tatars, Khazars, Svyatoslav and Crimea into a heap. Yes, and the Vatican dragged. Not a great knowledgeable author about the princes of Russian ...

    Purely for expanding horizons: Tmutarakan and Sarkel (Khazar cities, who have forgotten) are Turkic names. "Tarak" means "fugitive" or "migrant". What is "darkness" everyone knows. And "sary" means yellow. In general, the Khazar names are full of Turkic roots. In Crimea, wherever you go: Turkic names and under the same names they are mentioned in the annals. Chersonesos, by the way, was originally called Korsun. Also a Turkic word.

    That is, the Khazars for some reason called their cities Turkic names. In Russia, Peter the Great also called St. Petersburg the capital. But he is also Peter. He studied with the Germans and considered Russia a barbaric country, and such names were still rare. Does it seem strange to anyone that the Khazars used Turkism constantly and that the Russians, having seized the territory, left all the old names?

    This is possible only if the Khazars were and remain the same Turks as the Russians. Judaism was the religion of an extremely limited segment of the population. The ruling elite. The rest remained as pagans. Thus, Svyatoslav did not destroy any such villainous Jews and there was no "great people's war". The local population simply supported the Russians who were close by faith and relatives by blood (and what would you want if tribute was paid by slaves?). It all came down to the elimination of the Khazar elite. The population did not flee either to the Caucasus or elsewhere. Why would he run? The tribute to the Russians was much less than local taxes, and that once robbed was a matter of everyday life at that time.

    Svyatoslav’s campaign was the usual local showdown with the redistribution of spheres of influence. Of course, this was not a concept. The Pechenegs (who at that time were by no means savages) did not like this behavior very much and soon Svyatoslav paid for it. But this is another story and the Jews with the Tatars have nothing to do with it.
    1. +5
      19 June 2015 13: 19
      Quote: RiverVV
      Everywhere you stick in the Crimea: Turkic names and under the same names they are mentioned in the annals. Khersones, by the way, was originally called Korsun. Also a Turkic word.


      It is not necessary to poke into the sea and mountain coast of Crimea. Under each Turkic name is Greek or Byzantine. The renaming took place after the conquest of Crimea by Turkey. Turkey progenocidized the entire European population of Crimea and erased the slice of the earth from all European place names.

      Quote: RiverVV
      Thus, Svyatoslav did not destroy any such villainous Jews and there was no "great people's war"


      Zhidovin - this is the Jew in Old Russian. It was them who were defeated by Svyatoslav. By the way, at that time, the main military force of the KhazKag was outside the capital, which allowed Svyatoslav to destroy precisely the administrative Jewish top of the khaganate. But she was villainous or good - that's another question.
      1. -3
        19 June 2015 14: 05
        In fact, everything is just the opposite: it is the Greek names that are usually nothing more than a homonymous reworking of local ones. The same Chersonesus is translated from Greek as "peninsula". These Greeks are naive people, right? The peninsulas have never been seen before. But then they saw and the city was founded in honor of this. :)

        In fact, no one would put the city anywhere. You need a convenient bay, a river, a place for a fortress ... And do you really think that there was no settlement in such a place before? Of course it was. It was called, oddly enough, Korsun. It is quite consonant with the Greek word and over time it was transformed into it. If in doubt about the antiquity of Asian civilization, google "Arkaim". Two thousand years BC. In Greece at that time they ran with clubs and something similar existed only in Crete.

        Another example is Odessa, which stands (and certainly stands much earlier than the Greeks sailed there) on the site of the ancient Khadzhibey. "Haji" in Turkic means "vagabond", and "bai" means "rich". In simple terms: a bum. Doesn't it remind you of that Odyssey? :)))

        You don’t understand about the Jews. By defeat, usually all the same is meant a battle and a decisive victory. Svyatoslav, as you yourself admit, didn’t crush anyone. :) Most likely they took the city in the air, set fire to the palace from four angles, and then grabbed something that was more valuable and made legs. Why wait for circumcision from the cadre army? Well, without a kagan, civil strife began and then it was easier.
        1. +3
          19 June 2015 14: 31
          Quote: RiverVV
          In fact, everything is just the opposite: it is the Greek names that are usually nothing more than a homonymous reworking of local ones. The same Chersonesus is translated from Greek as "peninsula".


          Your "actually" claims to be the ultimate truth and is repeated twice in one post. This is true, by the way.

          Your "As a rule" is also not entirely correct, because in the absence of a written language among the local population of that time, it is not possible to identify the primary source of this or that name and we have to accept the first written mention as the primary source. And these were the Greeks, not the Taurus or any other local. Feodosia - given by God, Yalta - the coast (the locals are unlikely to call their settlement that way, where the coast is everywhere along the coast), Partenit is a purely Greek word, etc.
          And Khersones - really is a peninsula on the Tauride Peninsula.

          Most likely the city was taken on the fly,

          Sailed along the Volga.
          1. 0
            19 June 2015 15: 39
            Well hello ... How was it not written? The Turkic runic pymenism is well known. The Armenian alphabet is created on its basis. In Crimea, too, its samples were in Bulgaria, in Hungary ... In Crimea, less, but most likely because the alphabet imported by the Greeks was more convenient.

            Once again: the Asian history of civilizations is much older than the European. Do not look for Greek roots, if you have your own. Why are you all so drawn to Europe? Still Nikolaev would have remembered. Nike - victory, Laos - glory, if not mistaken ...
            1. +4
              19 June 2015 16: 10
              Quote: RiverVV
              Well hello ... How was it not written? Turkic runic pyranism is well known


              Did the Taurus have a Turkic runic script? This is something new. Taurus were not Türks. Well, they robbed everyone in a row, and so they got samples of runic writing. Illiterate, they were wild as Papuans. Neither the alphabet nor the runes were used.
              1. -1
                19 June 2015 16: 34
                That is how wild ??? Have you not read Herodotov? Do not really believe these fables. Someone from the Greeks got their sandals in Chersonesos, so he riveted on the locals.

                By the way! The same Herodotus mentioned that it was the custom of the Taurs to put the heads of enemies on spears above the house. Firstly: something similar also existed among the Slavs. Only heads were planted on the picket fence around the village. And secondly: the very presence of houses suggest a sedentary lifestyle, agriculture, cities, city government. State, perhaps. The wild nomad is useless at home. Actually, the very mention of Herodotus testifies to the long history of the people.

                They argue about writing. There are versions that it spread after mixing with the Scythians, but this is unlikely. Trade with the Greeks was already an ordinary occurrence, with merchants traveling outside the Crimea. That is, the Tauris could not help but have literate people, and where there are literate people there can certainly be those who can write in several languages.
  14. 0
    19 June 2015 12: 05
    It turns out that the native Ukrainians are descendants of the Polovtsy and Slavs? I thought that the Polovtsy were Mongoloid.
    1. 0
      20 June 2015 20: 00
      Quote: oldav
      I thought that the Polovtsy were Mongoloid.

      the Turks. But tyrki is primarily a language group. Many Scythian peoples joined the Turks. But at the expense of the Polovtsy, for the first time I heard something they had blond hair.
      1. 0
        22 June 2015 20: 15
        Quote: 4-th Paradise

        the Turks. But tyrki is primarily a language group. Many Scythian peoples joined the Turks. But at the expense of the Polovtsy, for the first time I heard something they had blond hair.

        I read an interesting theory that the Türks are representatives of the halogen group R1B1 were proto-Türks. Aryans and Türks split up 25-28 thousand years ago in Siberia. Protoarians came out thousands of three years earlier. But in general, the proto-Türks repeated their route.
        1. 0
          23 June 2015 00: 26
          Quote: Cossack Ermak
          I read an interesting theory that the Türks are representatives of the halogen group R1B1 were proto-Türks. Aryans and Türks split up 25-28 thousand years ago in Siberia. Protoarians came out thousands of three years earlier. But in general, the proto-Türks repeated their route.


          Aryans and Turks did not separate. And connected.

          The core of the Indo-European peoples is approximately today's territories of Poland, Hungary, Romania. The core of the Turkic peoples of Altai and the steppes of present-day Mongolia.

          7-8 thousand years ago, from the Indo-European core, Slavic, Germanic, Romanesque, Aryan groups began to separate.

          5-6 thousand years ago, the Aryans of the Iranian-speaking group settled on the Black Sea coast.

          4-5 thousand years ago, the Aryans crossed the Volga and settled along southern Siberia to the upper Yenisei, Kazakhstan, Central Asia, and Xinjiang. Through Central Asia, the Aryans went to India, Pakistan, Iran (in more detail below).

          Their farm was cattle-breeding. And at first it was a distant. Before there were people, they built fortifications, lived in them, and drove cattle to pastures. Arkaim also belongs to these settlements, which the false historians carried to Tartarus and attributed to the Russian settlement. And the same Aryan settlements, like Arkaim, have been excavated by hundreds - In southern Siberia, Kazakhstan, Central Asia, in the Swat valley in Pakistan. Later, the Aryans switched to a more productive livestock industry - nomadic and stopped building settlements.

          The stream of Aryans that crossed Central Asia was divided into three streams. One turned west. Assimilated the local Semitic population and subsequently created the Persian kingdom - present Iran. The second stream went down to the territory of present-day Pakistan. The third stream went to northern India, assimilated the local Dravidian tribes, and later modern India formed there.
          1. 0
            23 June 2015 00: 32
            Quote: Altar
            later modern India formed there.


            In the 1st century AD, from the ancestral home of the Turks, part of the Turkic-speaking Huns moved to Xinjiang and Southeast Kazakhstan and assimilated the local Aryans.
            In the 2nd century, another part of the Huns moved to northern Kazakhstan, the Volga region, the Urals and assimilated the last representatives of the Aryans.

            So the Aryans and Turks did not disconnect, but united, creating new Turkic-speaking tribes and peoples.
            1. 0
              28 June 2015 13: 16
              Quote: Altar
              In the 1st century AD, from the ancestral home of the Turks, part of the Turkic-speaking Huns moved to Xinjiang and Southeast Kazakhstan and assimilated the local Aryans.

              Again, this nonsense, the Xiongnu were not Türks and nothing is known about them except that they migrated to the west from ancient China-kuld and as it is not known. In southeastern kazakhstan-south-western kyrgyzstan back in the 4th century there was a state of the Scythians-Usuns, they did not hear anything about the Khunu who "assimilated" them, just like the Chinese of those times.
              Quote: Altar
              So the Aryans and Turks did not disconnect, but united, creating new Turkic-speaking tribes and peoples.
              not the Aryans and Turks united, but the Scythians and Mongols ...
          2. 0
            28 June 2015 12: 34
            Quote: Altar
            The core of the Indo-European peoples is approximately today's territories of Poland, Hungary, Romania.

            actually from the lower reaches of the Don to the Caspian. they went west later.
          3. 0
            28 June 2015 13: 09
            Quote: Altar
            7-8 thousand years ago, from the Indo-European core, Slavic, Germanic, Romanesque, Aryan groups began to separate.

            You can not read further. since the Germans appeared thousands so 4-5 later ...
            About the "Country of Cities" of Sintasht culture is also nonsense, they were found in just 20 and not hundreds. And they were built by the Aryans, and not by the Russians who were not yet there, the Russians appeared more than 3000 years later.
            The arias were busted not only by herders, but also by farmers, and this is also a recognized fact, they knew what a plow is.
            And you seem to have never heard of the states of Kourou and Panchala in India ...
            I’ll not even discuss further, it’s not interesting to discuss anti-scientific writings.
  15. +7
    19 June 2015 13: 03
    Quote: fktrcfylhn61
    Thus, the statements of representatives of the Crimean Tatars that they are the indigenous population of the Crimean peninsula and therefore must have certain benefits do not correspond to historical reality.


    Those Tatars who claim this are not interested in historical reality, they are only interested in the benefits and benefits that power over the Crimea would give them. They do not seek historical justice, but domination. It is useless to convince them of something.
  16. +1
    19 June 2015 13: 31
    I specially read several articles, so they write that the Polovtsy looked approximately like modern Bashkirs, ala Zemfira Ramazanova, alsu.
    1. 0
      19 June 2015 14: 14
      This is nonsense. Exactly the same Türks as Russians, Tatars, Komi and yes: Bashkirs. Well, imagine: two people live nearby. What is 500 kilometers for the steppe? The way of life is semi-nomadic, well, unless the Slavs have more cities. 200 years will not pass - and it will be extremely difficult to distinguish one from the other. In peacetime there will be intergeneric marriages, in wartime - captures of slaves. And the Slavs, Pechenegs and black hoods lived nearby for so long that even their princes were not embarrassed to be related. So they considered a minimum equal to themselves.
  17. -1
    19 June 2015 15: 24
    In general, talking about Russian or Slavic Tmutarakan, Kerch or Taman is ridiculous. This is the same as talking about Mongolian Kiev or Ryazan during the Horde period. The Russians (who were then ethnically more Scandinavian than the Slavs) only ruled Tmutarakan, and the local conglomerate of peoples and tribes lived there mainly and the Slavs never dominated there.
    1. +4
      19 June 2015 16: 45
      Sorry ... Then what's the point at all talking about someone's domination? By definition, it cannot be in a "conglomerate". Then we can say that the Scythians did not dominate there, and the Goths and the Huns also went to piss ...
  18. +2
    19 June 2015 16: 23
    I will summarize the dispute .. smile One semi professional from history, wrote an article in the same style ... And the other semi professionals are discussing this article .. don’t worry, I mean myself .. I left the Big History 20 years ago .. hi
    PS By the number of minuses I want to determine the number of professionals ... smile
  19. -1
    19 June 2015 19: 35
    Quote: fktrcfylhn61
    Even this folk-Judas will not calm down! There is no Stalin on them!

    Exactly - and they were also indignant that they were evicted from the Crimea, the sufferers. As if under Stalin, only they got it. In such a strategically important place it is impossible to have a constantly scorching fifth column. There will be no rest from them for many years to come. Until the world changes radically and a balance is established between the Christian and Muslim communities. Permanent blackmail - here we are seemingly peaceful, hospitable, benevolent - and here we are shahids, Shiites, Sunnis, radicals and even the devil knows who. Very unreliable comrades. They will whine and beg for themselves all sorts of preferences.
    1. ivan.ru
      -1
      22 June 2015 15: 27
      "Constant blackmail - here we seem to be peaceful, hospitable, benevolent - and now we are already shaheeds, Shiites, Sunites, radicals and God knows who else"

      it’s not only about Crimean, it’s true for all Muslims
  20. -1
    19 June 2015 20: 31
    To summarize, do you Russians have the same rights to Crimea as ours do for Kazakhs, although if you take from the Golden Horde ... do you still have descendants of Chengizites? We have a whole TORE clan. smile And if you take Lame, the one who defeated .... Damn the descendants should have cursed him, because now they’re fooling for a penny ......
    1. +1
      19 June 2015 21: 08
      And so. laughing
      Gubaidulla Genghis Khan (Sultan Haji Gubaidulla Dzhanger-oglu Prince Genghis Khan) (May 6, 1840, Khan Headquarters, Bukeevskaya Horde - February 28, 1909, Yalta) - military leader of the Russian army, son of the khan of the Bukeev horde Zhangir, grandson of Bukei-khan, ching. Ethnic Kazakh. Member of the Russian-Turkish war of 1877-1878. General of the cavalry.
      He was buried in the Muslim cemetery "Derikoy" near Yalta.
    2. hyper
      +1
      20 June 2015 09: 27
      The thesis is incorrect, because- As for the right to declare something on the basis of “politically correct” historical information biased at all times, sorry, it's stupid ... it is not the truth that will win, but the Strongest, like the last thousand years.
      And if, judging by fairness, judging purely hypothetically, we sat down at the table and began to sort through the facts, we will take 100-500-1000 or more years by the right of heritage ??? agree the heir will change, if the principle is who before we get to Adam and agree that the common land, if the last owner has no complaints about us, if you want to take the period in the middle on what is based

      I worked in Kazakhstan, Bashkiria, Tataria, Khakassia - local people told me everywhere that the true Kazakhs, Bashkirs, Tatars, Khakasses, respectively, were blue-eyed and fair-haired and darkened after the invasion of some people, I doubt ...
      As for Chingizids, as well as for Rurikovich, there are family traditions but there are no scientific facts and independent experts confirming them, I'm sorry to believe your facts, since you are mine because of your interest ...
  21. -3
    20 June 2015 06: 49
    Great Tartaria. In the ancient language of Great - Mogul. The Great Tartaria - in the enemy's Romanov interpretation - Mongolo-Tataria. The great Wall of China. Loopholes towards China. Entrances to the wall from our side. The south side of the wall is mostly on cliffs. Pictures of the Wall from space coincide with the old European maps of the southern border of Tartaria. (In Russia, all the maps of the Romanovs were destroyed.) So who built it and from whom? The illegitimate Vladimir (Malusha's Jewish mother) served the Jews and baptized Russia by destroying the rebellious Christianization of the Slavs. Glory to the Slavic Family! Glory to our great ancestors!
    1. +1
      20 June 2015 09: 19
      What is this "ancient language"?
    2. +2
      20 June 2015 10: 28
      So the clever Chinese wall was originally designed like that? or maybe it ceased to be "Chinese" when it began to be "Mongolian"? Why would the Mongols repel a blow from the north if they have a capital there? But in the event of a Chinese uprising, the wall will come in handy just right. By the way, there are so many bones and skulls embedded in the wall ... such are they - "tartars". drove a couple of million "Chines" and built themselves a "wall". laughing

      There were several walls and they were built in different eras and in several rows. What do you match there? European maps of the 500 century AD? wassat

      And Equal-to-the-Apostles Princess Olga, the mother of Svyatoslav, is also probably from the Yavreys. fellow


      Quote: rus
      and baptized Russia by the destruction of the rebellious Christianization of the Slavs.

      Interrupted everyone? and Murom, with a meschera? "Slavs", they are "Slavs".
      Quote: rus
      Glory to the Slavic Family!
      And "heroes", glory, eat the vitamin, calm down.

      Quote: rus
      Glory to our great ancestors!
      Glory to the monkeys, reptiles and fish, glory to primitive worms and protoplasm. Hooray comrades!
      1. +1
        20 June 2015 12: 30
        And the "ancient language" ...
      2. 0
        20 June 2015 22: 11
        Quote: Penzuck
        Glory to the monkeys, reptiles and fish, glory to primitive worms and protoplasm. Hooray comrades!

        Well, according to DNA analysis in humans, homasapiens and chimpanzee monkeys were a common ancestor 5 million years ago. wink
        Find an ancestor deeper in terms of non-genetics.
  22. +1
    20 June 2015 09: 19
    Strange deportation contributed to the consolidation of the Crimean Tatars. Tatars are not homogeneous, the population of the southern coast of Crimea is mainly the Islamic population of Greece, in the Ottoman Empire they directly administratively subordinated to Istanbul, their marriages with the inhabitants of the Crimean steppes, who were descendants of the Horde, were excluded until mid-20th century. The mountainous Crimea is the descendants of the Khazar population, they still did not accept Islam to the end, remaining a kind of Jewish community (Krymchaks), and who converted to Islam still lived in isolation.
  23. +2
    20 June 2015 12: 07
    Forgot to add about DNA analyzes, there is no question of any dominance of the Mongoloid race over the Slavs, dark genes are no more than 2%, and we are talking about the prescription about 10 years ago, and the white man took a dark-skinned wife!
  24. kig
    0
    21 June 2015 05: 01
    Well, why is this all? To prove once again that Crimea has always, in all ages, been Russian? This is already known to all. And history is a very good science, with its help you can prove anything.
  25. 0
    21 June 2015 08: 58
    And Arkaim is also Mongol-Tatar? I ueyvayu why the forum rules. Rude and shit. This is my last comment. Include video from VKS in Yandex. They clearly say that at noon the loopholes look at the sun. Ugh at you.
  26. -1
    21 June 2015 10: 37
    About Kaganate (anyone interested).
    There is a unique artifact of the 10th century: correspondence of the Cordoba caliph Hasday ibn Shafrut (Spain)
    to the Khazar Bek Joseph (Khazaria). Correspondence in Hebrew (in Spain, advisers of the Caliph were Jewish),
    language quite understandable to today's readers.
    It describes, among other things, the campaigns of Helga (prophetic Oleg). Curious that the letters are written
    quite unremarkable before the defeat of Kaganate by Prince Svyatoslav. Apparently, the campaign was sudden - in letters
    there is no mention of a threat from Russia.
    1. +1
      22 June 2015 15: 20
      I readily believe. I also believe that in the 10th century, Jews wrote in a language similar to modern Russian. Well, purely so that the "descendants" would understand. But the fact that the writings of those times of our ancestors cannot be read without preparation - they simply did not care about the descendants. Unlike the Jews.
      That's why they are Jews. Look how everything is thought out!
  27. 0
    22 June 2015 15: 18
    I love such articles about the Great <Slavs / Aryans / Rus (delete unnecessary)>.
    Well, for example, Rus / Dew appeared in Byzantine terminology as a generalized name for the Slavic peoples who converted to Christianity, i.e. after Christianization by Prince Vladimir. And here immediately already allegedly in the 9-10 centuries Great Dew / Rus .. yeah. I would hear someone from the Rurikovich of the time that they are called Christians ..
    Typical fairy tales about Tmutarakan, changing its geography from "teacher" to "teacher" are also delivered, and no less than things of Slavic-Russian origin. The first "46" was clearly identified by the barcode.
    For me personally, somehow the well-known confirmed history is more than enough to assert that we have something to be proud of even without these works on the topic of "pre-Christian / pre-Petrine / and some other era of Russia".

    Not, if you want, then no problem. Cartoons also have a right to exist. Just do not present it as "past" with a claim to the true history. And so, yes, funny reading. Thanks!