Russian land before the Batu invasion. The problem of the "Mongol" invasion of Russia

7 February 1238, after a five-day siege, the troops of Batu began to seize the capital of North-Eastern Russia, the city of Vladimir. Prior to this, the army of Batu ruined Ryazan and the Ryazan principality, defeated the united Vladimir-Ryazan forces near Kolomna. 20 January fell fortress Moscow.

Russia before the invasion

The defeat of 31 on the Kalka river on May 1223, when the combined Russian-Polovtsian army was destroyed by the corps of Jebe and Subedei (the names in different sources are somewhat different), did not become a sign of fate for the Russian princes. Although the threat from the East has not gone away. Affairs in the open spaces of Eurasia were very serious. The troops of Genghis Khan at this time were connected by wars on several fronts. After the defeat of Khorezm, Genghis Khan moved the troops to the kingdom of the Tangut (modern Western China). During the siege of their capital, the “shaker of the Universe” passed away. However, this did not save the Tangut, their capital was taken and devastated. According to Genghis Khan a tremendous trezna was arranged.

The great ruler, before his death, set out the successors of Ogedei. Other sons received inherits - uluses. Central Asia and Western Siberia went to the eldest son - Jochi. However, Genghis Khan had some distrust of him, perhaps he doubted his fatherhood. Juchi was conceived when his wife Borte was captured by the Merkits. These doubts were diligently fueled by other aspirants to Genghis Khan’s legacy. As a result, Juchi was killed. Jochi's inheritance went to his children — Orda-Ichen, Batu, and Sheibani.

At this time, the “Mongol-Tatars” (the author is of the opinion that modern Mongols and Mongolia have nothing to do with the soldiers of Genghis Khan and Batu) were fighting with Polovtsy, Bashkirs and Mansi in the expanses of Siberia and modern Kazakhstan. In 1229, they made their way to the Lower Volga, smashing the Sakasins, the descendants of the Khazarian population. However, the main army at that time were fighting for China. On the western border remained small detachments and auxiliary troops from conquered tribes. The Polovtsi and Bashkirs fought hard, the parties exchanged raids by horse units, so the war dragged on year after year without a decisive result.

It all happened very close to the borders of Russia. However, in the Russian land did not attach any importance to this. The chroniclers did not pay any attention to the terrible events that took place in the Caspian, Ural steppes. Inner quarrels were more important. In 1232, Prince Svyatoslav Mstislavich took Smolensk by storm, the city did not want to recognize him as a prince, after the death of his cousin Mstislav Davidovich from the mora. Crop failures and famine were also mentioned. Swept a terrible epidemic. Tens of thousands of people died in the Novgorod land alone.

Vladimirskaya Russia and Veliky Novgorod

On the eve of the invasion of troops of Baty, the Grand Prince of Vladimir Yuri II made several trips to the Mordovians and Bulgarians (Bulgarians). Together with the Vladimir regiments, the Murom troops routinely acted, and Ryazan joined. Mordva by this time already changed hostility on friendship with Russians. Relations with the Volga Bulgaria, despite constant peace agreements and oaths, were more complicated.

Yuri and his brother Yaroslav decided that it was necessary to return to the policy of the father, the gathering of Russia. It was necessary to begin with Veliky Novgorod. The local “golden belts” increasingly looked to the West. Yuri II attracted the union of his brother-in-law Mikhail of Chernigov. Vladimir, Rostov, Pereyaslav and Chernigov squad in 1224, occupied the Novgorod suburb of Torzhok. The great prince of Vladimir demanded the extradition of activists of the "German party", threatening to march on Novgorod.

It is clear that the freedom-loving Novgorod people were not embarrassed and began to shout about “liberties”, that “they would not give out the brothers” and prepare for a siege. The military demonstration of success was not successful, but the Vladyka Vladyka did not want to fight seriously. Negotiations began. Yaroslav Vsevolodovich on the Novgorod table did not want to take the “golden belts”. The grand duke did not want to send his sons - they were too young, the boyars would continue their policies with them, hiding behind their names. They agreed that Mikhail Chernigovsky would reign in Novgorod.

While Mikhail was engaged in business in Novgorod, his own lot was Chernigov, Oleg Kursky captured. Michael asked for help from Yuri. Vladimir ruler did not refuse, and allocated troops. Mikhail went to Chernigov to expel the invader. At this time, the Lithuanians invaded the Russian lands. They captured the Old Russa, spread over the environs of Pskov and Novgorod, invaded Smolensk. Veliky Novgorod appealed for help to Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, whom he recently rejected and scolded. Yaroslav acted without delay, united with Smolensk regiments and defeated the enemy in a cruel battle under Usvyaty. Many prisoners were released.

Yaroslav triumphant entered Novgorod. He tried to consolidate the zone of Russian influence in Finland. Passed with the squad of the whole territory, the Finnish leaders recognized themselves as Russian subjects. But then the Russians ran into the Swedes. In Sweden at that time, civil strife ended, Eric Erickson became king, and Earl Birger became his king. The Swedes considered Finland theirs. They set the Finns on the Russian lands, they pogromed the settlements around Olonets. Yaroslav quickly assembled a army and moved on the enemy, but was forced to stop at the Neva. Novgorodians rebelled and refused to go on. At this time, the Ladoga mayor broke the Finnish detachments, and the Karelians with the Izhoryans slaughtered the retreating.

In Novgorod, the land began a new distemper. In 1228, Yaroslav wanted to make a campaign against the Germans. Yuri sent to his aid the Vladimir regiments. Novgorod rich people were indignant, began to talk about the rise in prices for products due to the appearance of troops, rumors went that Yaroslav was planning to seize Veliky Novgorod. Yaroslav tried to agree on joint actions with the Pskovs, But he was not even allowed into the city. The prince filed a complaint to the Novgorod veche, demanded to deal with Pskov cases, to punish those responsible. Pskov also made an alliance with the Order; in the city came groups of Germans, Livs, and Latvians. Novgorodians also took the side of Pskov, refusing to fight the Order. Vladimir army asked out. Yaroslav was forced to obey the decision of the veche, but left two sons in his place — Fedor and Alexander. He retired to his inheritance - Peryaslavl-Zalessky.

Joint actions of the “golden belts” of Pskov and Novgorod (the veche was usually in their hands a toy) were simply explained. In Western Europe, an alliance of trade cities, the Hansa, was created, and Riga was included in it. Novgorod riches, for whom personal profits were more important than the interests of the Russian land, were very interested in participation in this organization. From 1227, the tip of Novgorod, Pskov, Polotsk and Smolensk conducted secret negotiations with the Germans. Naturally, not only trade issues were resolved. It was a big game. The plenipotentiary ambassador of the Pope, the bishop of Modeni participated in it. Pope Honorius III was so pleased with the success of the negotiations that he sent a message to all the Russian princes, including the “Suzdal king” Yuri II. He promised them prosperity in the composition of the “Latin Church”, asked to express in writing “good will” on this issue. Vladimir "King" did not respond to this message, on the contrary, he expelled from his possessions Dominican missionaries. The “golden belts” were differently configured, they followed the principle where money is the motherland. In the same year, when Yaroslav wanted to fight the Order, Smolensk and Polotsk entered into agreements with the Bishop of Riga and Ganza, establishing free trade with them and giving the Germans great privileges. Yaroslav "crossed the path" Novgorod and Pskov.

As soon as Prince Yaroslav left, passions boiled in Novgorod. Veliky Novgorod openly divided into two parties: the “German” led by posadnik Vodovik and the patriotic - Tverdislavich. Novgorod went wall to wall, threw each other in the Volkhov. The presence of the princes Fedor and Alexander also prevented the Westerners, a conspiracy arose. Friends warned in time, princes taken out. Saved on time, the "German" party won up. Tverdislavich killed. A wave of pogroms of the courtyards of the patriotic party swept across Novgorod. Many fled to Pereyaslavl-Zalessky, under the protection of Yaroslav.

Vodovik and his party called on the Novgorod table of Chernigov Prince Michael. Although he was on friendly terms with Yuri, he did not refuse, it was painfully beneficial and prestigious to hold the Novgorod land. Michael himself could not come, stuck in the southern quarters. Sent son - Rostislav. In 1230, Novgorod and Pskov entered the Ganza, made peace and alliance with the Order of Riga. The process of drawing the wreckage of Russia into the sphere of influence of Western civilization and Rome was gaining momentum.

For Mikhail of Chernigov, the Novgorod table turned into a loss of good relations with the Prince of Vladimir. Yuri wanted to agree with Mikhail in an amicable way. But it did not. Novgorod Westerners were completely brought in and demanded to start a war, to revenge Yaroslav for offenses. Mikhail was promised full support of the people of Novgorod, who allegedly hate Prince Yaroslav of Pereyaslav. Michael sent his son to help the troops. However, he was deceived. The common people, as soon as they found out against whom they were to fight, rebelled. Rostislav and Vodovik expelled from the city. Their supporters fled to Pskov, who to Chernigov.

The squad of Yaroslav, together with the Novgorod militia, ravaged several Chernigov regions. Then Pskov was punished. Yaroslav blocked the roads to him, under the threat of famine, the Pskov sent a delegation to put up. The traitors fled to the lands of the Order, in Odenpe. The Order by this time already had a hefty Russian colony, it even had its own prince Yaroslav Vladimirovich (he had no inheritance in Russia, and he joined the knights). From the "dissidents" formed the army, strengthened its Estonians. The Germans also helped with money weapons. Prince Yaroslav Vladimirovich captured Izborsk with a sudden blow. Then the Pskovs opened their eyes to the German "friendship." They themselves moved to Izborsk, and its inhabitants were not eager to protect the discoveries. As a result, the then "Vlasovites" were simply tied up and given to Yaroslav Pereyaslavsky.

But this one was just a trial balloon. The attack of the Russian traitors was only a test of strength. It did not work out so terrible. The German army was already preparing for the invasion. However, Yaroslav managed to collect Pereyaslavl and Vladimir regiments, and delivered a preemptive strike. He broke into Estonia and mixed all the plans of the enemy. The Crusaders hurriedly moved an army towards him. In 1234, the Novgorod-Vladimir army crushed the army of the Order of the Sword into battle on the Omovzhe River (Emaygi River). Interestingly, in this battle, part of the German army, pursued by Russian soldiers, fell through the ice of the river Emaygi and drowned. Russian warriors besieged Yuriev and Odenpe. The Order requested peace, agreeing with all the conditions dictated by Yaroslav and Novgorod. The eastern and southern parts of the Dorpat bishopric were ceded to Pskov. The Crusaders suffered a serious defeat on their territory and temporarily calmed down. In 1237, the Order of the Swordsmen became part of the more powerful Teutonic Order. The West has prepared a new offensive against Russia.

South Russia

In Southern Russia, Mstislav the Barefoot ("the hero" of the battle on the Kalka River) played a trickster. Once again he defeated the Hungarian prince Andrew, who wanted to capture Galich. But he did not want to manage the principality, he was content with the "knightly" glory. He decided to keep several cities “to feed”, and to give Galich Daniel Romanovich to his son-in-law (another participant in the battle on Kalka), who actually had legal rights to these lands. But the local boyars became alarmed. The boyars remembered the tough hand of his father, Roman Mstislavich, whom the Galician-Volyn chronicler titled “the autocrat of all Russia,” and feared that his son would rule the same way. They began to prove to Mstislav that Daniel was an ungrateful man, he would not appreciate the gift, would challenge him. The second son-in-law is different - Hungarian prince Andrei. Mstislav, apparently, did not have much difference to whom to give Galich. He did not think about the consequences of his step (which was typical for him, if we recall the tragedy on Kalka). Just ask for Prince Andrew - please. Galich gave to Andrew. And this after 10 fought for it for years, shed rivers of blood, beat and expelled the Hungarians from the Galician land. I gave the principality just like that. Naturally, the Catholic clergy, royal officials, the Hungarian governor, Benedict Bor, immediately returned to Galich. He had already "distinguished himself" in Galicia, forcibly consuming girls and nuns, he was called "the antichrist." It is clear that Daniel Romanovich was offended by breaking relations with his father-in-law. The Russians clashed with the Russians again. Mstislav has already boasted that he will take Volyn from the "ungrateful" son-in-law. True, then he cooled down, repented, promised to beat the Hungarians again. But he did not have time, fell ill and died.

Daniel of Galicia was the most capable prince in the south at that time. But he got a heavy legacy. At this time he had to fight for Lutsk. The owner of the Lutsk principality Mstislav Nema on his deathbed bequeathed his inheritance to Daniel. But it caused a new quarrel. On the inheritance of Nemoy claimed several small princes, who seized the weapon. However, they could not resist Daniel and found strong advocates. Vladimir Kievsky (he belonged to the Smolensk princely family) and Mikhail of Chernigov (a Olgovich family) stood up for them. Both were worried that Daniel would immediately receive the Volyn and Lutsk principalities, become a serious contender and be able to claim power over South Russia. Kiev and Chernigov called against Polovtsy Khan Kotyan. Fighting boiled on the right bank of the Dnieper, on the Bug and the Dniester. Daniel was really an extraordinary ruler. He managed to keep Volyn and Lutsk, to smash the Hungarians and return the “patrimony” - the Galician principality. At the same time he showed generosity - he let the captive prince Andrei go and forgave the boyars-traitors. True, it was a mistake. Andrew immediately resumed the war, and the boyars habitually changed. Daniil Galitsky won open battles, but the boyars repeatedly defeated the beaten cities to the Hungarians. Galician principality passed from hand to hand.

Daniel showed and his characteristic "teacher" Mstislav Udalom, a certain "knightly" frivolity. Daniel began to actively intervene in Western European politics (later Rome would catch him in this, offering him the royal crown). He intervened in Polish civil strife, became friends with the Duke Konrad of Mazovia and his friends the German crusaders. He supported Conrad in the struggle for the throne, led the Russian squads to fight for foreign interests abroad. He even wanted to get into the German strife, to stand on the side of the big feudal lords against Emperor Frederick II. Approximate barely dissuaded him from this adventure.

Massacres continued on the eastern frontiers of the lands of Daniel. Vladimir Kievsky and Mikhail Chernigov have quarreled. Chernigov was stronger, so Vladimir asked for help from Daniel, promising additional cities. The Galician ruler eagerly responded, even in a knightly manner refused the award and moved the squadron to devastate Chernihiv lands. However, here the Allies firmly ran. Mikhail of Chernigov and his cousin Izyaslav Seversky and the Polovtsy Kotyan allied with them to smithereens defeated the regiments of Vladimir and Daniel under Torsky. Daniel was forced to flee, Kiev capitulated. Prince Vladimir and his wife were thrown into prison, and from the city they took a huge ransom. Izyaslav Seversky became the Grand Prince of Kiev (Kiev was no longer considered the main trophy, his fame had faded). Mikhail of Chernigov led the troops to Galich. Local boyars habitually changed, intending to give up the city without a fight. Daniel, learning of the plot, fled to the Hungarians. I had to ask for help from those whom I had barely knocked out of the Galician land. He recognized himself as a vassal of the Hungarian king Bela IV. However, I was completely humiliated. The Hungarians decided that permanent strife in the east was more profitable for them than one strong ruler. King Bela supported Chernihiv Prince. The same position was taken by “friend” of Daniel Konrad Mazowiecki. Another "friends" - the Teutonic knights, seeing that Daniel had to be tight, moved to occupy the Volyn cities. Daniel, who returned to Volyn, had to restrain their onslaught.

Chernigov prince also triumphant not for long. The captured Prince of Kiev, Vladimir, collected a large ransom for himself and received his freedom. He called for help Smolensk regiments and drove Izyaslav from Kiev. Daniel, having failed with the Western rulers, asked for help from Vladimir Sovereign Yuri II and Yaroslav Vsevolodovich. After the negotiations, they agreed that they would help him return Galich, but Kiev would depart to Yaroslav. The prospect was tempting. Yuriy rules in Vladimir, his brother Yaroslav will be imprisoned in Kiev, they have already subordinated Veliky Novgorod, and his ally, Daniel, will rule the southwestern edge. In 1236, Yaroslav Vsevolodovich led the Vladimir rati to the south. Chernigov capitulated. Mikhail of Chernigov withdrew his forces to Galich. Vladimir Kievsky was forced to submit to the will of the more powerful masters, and went to his native Smolensk. Yaroslav took Kiev. They thought that Mikhail would want to return the Chernihiv inheritance and voluntarily give up Galich. But he did not want to give up the rich Carpathian region. A stubborn struggle ensued. Yaroslav laid siege to Kamenetz fortress and, after a cruel assault, took her. It was seized by the wife of Michael and part of his treasury. The Chernigov prince did not surrender, Izyaslav Seversky, the Polovtsi detachments pulled up to him. Instead of uniting in front of an external threat, a fierce war was raging in Russia.

Thus, before the arrival of the troops of Baty, Russia was in a very weakened state. Russian forces and resources for the most part went to the princely feuds. Western civilization led an active offensive, drawing the wreckage of a single ancient Russian state into its orbit. Gradually, the “fifth column”, “German” (“Hungarian”, “Polish”) party was created from the boyars and merchants, ready to betray the interests of the entire Russian people for the sake of personal and (or) corporate interests. Separate influence of the West and individual princes, ready to become "kings". Rome acted by the hands of Sweden, the German knights of the crusaders, Poland and Hungary. Without creating a single, powerful state, Russia was doomed to defeat. The subordination of Russia to Rome, in the state in which it was at the beginning of the 13 century, was a matter of time. Rome and Western civilization had a great experience in assimilating and bristling the Slavs of Europe. So, the whole Slavic civilization in Central Europe has already been destroyed, the Polish Slavs are okatolichnye (they are already a whole millennium enemies of the Eastern Slavs, a tool in the hands of the masters of the Western world).

To be continued ...

Comments

[Yoshkin Kot]

n-dya, the future in 600 years ukrointsy already then, were cut for the "European way" and drowned Russia in brotherly blood, and even then they considered the north-east where the economic and power center of the country had already moved.
they themselves executed the ambassadors, they themselves flooded to the hammer, with a bunch of "atamans"

[Kail_seven]

Quote: Yoshkin Cat

n-dya, the future in 600 years ukrointsy already then, were cut for the "European way" and drowned Russia in brotherly blood, and even then they considered the north-east where the economic and power center of the country had already moved.
they themselves executed the ambassadors, they themselves flooded to the hammer, with a bunch of "atamans"

The Russian princes of that time would be greatly surprised that they turn out to be Ukrainians,. Learn history and do not carry nonsense.

[Yoshkin Kot]

future in 600 years ukrointsy

[Kail_seven]

Quote: Yoshkin Cat

future in 600 years ukrointsy

Unfortunately, after 600 years, “Europe” managed to divide one nation into three parts and put into our heads what we are all very different. This is a sad fact. And now everyone rolls a barrel at each other, because it is he who is the best, honest and firstborn, and the rest are so, rootless falsification resulting from the process of ethnogenesis with: Finno-Ugrians, Turks, Mongols, Tatars (emphasize the necessary).

[shkodnik]

they would be even more surprised when they learned that Chernihiv is southern and not as they always considered northern Russia

[Peter76]

history repeats itself

[Goga]

peter76 - Colleague, history is not just repeating itself, but also spinning up, as it were, in a spiral, and the current situation, when the feuds between parts of one nation (Russia and Ukraine) do not allow to confront modern threats together - this is the same massacre between the Russian principalities, just happening now - this is no longer the problem of the Russian people alone - these are global problems ...

[Corsair]

The problem is the reluctance of the ruling elites to sacrifice a small fraction of the RESPONSIBILITY to achieve a common, mutually beneficial goal. So it was, and unfortunately remains.

[Deniska999]

Good review article.

[YuDDP]

no. Fomenko and Nosovsky are more interested. And you believe them. Because it is not described by someone unknown who composed, but confirmed by curious facts.

[Ostanin]

The article is interesting. For myself, I concluded that if the "Mongol-Tatars" had not come to Russia, Russia as such would not have become. Western "democratizers" would have been torn to pieces - everything went to this. So, who actually were these "Mongol-Tatars" invaders or liberators?

[Frigate]

Quote: Ostanin

So, who actually were these "Mongol-Tatars" invaders or liberators?

Most likely internationalists, since they did not touch a single religion and political system, exchanged family ties and created one giant country, a united world

[Goga]

Frigate - Colleague - by and large you are right, the main imperial principles of Genghis Khan were religious tolerance and the absence of nationalism as a state policy. By the way, there is, in my opinion, a well-grounded opinion that part of the empire of Genghis Khan, the "Golden Horde" fell into decay precisely after the adoption of Islam as a state religion. And Islam is not at all different in tolerance, and this pushed away from the Golden Horde many peoples who entered it, including the Russians, who did not want to betray their faith.
And by the time of the Mongol invasion, the situation was really crisis, right up to the announcement by the Pope of a crusade against the "schismatics", that is, the Orthodox. It is no coincidence that Alexander Yaroslavovich (Nevsky) made his historical choice towards cooperation with the Mongols, many contemporaries (and even later) blamed him for this, but the Russian Church reacted to it differently - Nevsky was deservedly recognized as a "saint." The church had a complete understanding that the Mongols did not touch our faith, but the West would destroy it. The centuries that have passed since then have shown who was right.

[Yoshkin Kot]

Islamization under the khan -Uzbek ruined the horde, since in addition to compulsory Islam, a wild tradition of inheritance came to the father, through fratricide (the heirs were chosen by the Mongols), which led to the torch that the descendants of Batu killed each other and were replaced by Tokhtamysh, who was no longer through sisterhood by a friend of the heirs of Nevsky, this finally finished off the Horde

[Frigate]

Quote: Gogh

Colleague - by and large you are right, the main imperial principles of Genghis Khan were religious tolerance and the absence of nationalism as a state policy. By the way, there is, in my opinion, a well-grounded opinion that part of the empire of Genghis Khan, the "Golden Horde" fell into decay precisely after the adoption of Islam as a state religion. And Islam is not at all different in tolerance, and this pushed away from the Golden Horde many peoples who entered it, including the Russians, who did not want to betray their faith.
And by the time of the Mongol invasion, the situation was really crisis, right up to the announcement by the Pope of a crusade against the "schismatics", that is, the Orthodox. It is no coincidence that Alexander Yaroslavovich (Nevsky) made his historical choice towards cooperation with the Mongols, many contemporaries (and even later) blamed him for this, but the Russian Church reacted to it differently - Nevsky was deservedly recognized as a "saint." The church had a complete understanding that the Mongols did not touch our faith, but the West would destroy it. The centuries that have passed since then have shown who was right.

I am always right, please contact)))

[903006]

I agree with Ostanin and Goga, who were these "Mongol-Tatars" invaders or liberators in fact? If they had not come to the Russian land, what would the West have done with it? Yes, this is a big question, but the article is cool, to the author +

[kvs45]

"The church had a complete understanding that the Mongols did not touch our faith, but the West would destroy it. The centuries that have passed since then have shown who was right."

And the priests would not have to wave the censer, but would plow the ground, which categorically did not suit them, they would have made friends with the devil, not like the Mongols, just not to work!

[Yoshkin Kot]

and by the way I want to remind those who believe that the Russians were slaves of the Mongols, they do not give out daughters for slaves and do not fraternize with them.

[Frigate]

Quote: Yoshkin Cat

and by the way I want to remind those who believe that the Russians were slaves of the Mongols, they do not give out daughters for slaves and do not fraternize with them.

Nobody thinks so, and the term "Mongol" is most likely a distorted pronunciation of the Turkic "mynkol" in Russian (thousands of hands)

[Yoshkin Kot]

Yeah, and 140 years ukroine

[skrgar]

And by the way, I want to add, and just about why "Alexander Nevsky went to" cooperate "with .." Mongols ".. Now it is already thoroughly known .. Genghis Khan .. was a blue-eyed blonde !! .." There "is not so all it was just how our "history" was written to us by European historians under Peter the Great ... and now they continue to keep landmarks on their chronicles ... they rely on alleged "facts" ...

[Ascetic]

Quote: Frigate

Most likely internationalists, since they did not touch a single religion and political system, exchanged family ties and created one giant country, a united world

Before the adoption of Islam, it was so. Figuratively speaking, it turns out that the Steppe saved Russia from forced Catholicization fire and sword from the extinction and assimilation of Russians. It was under the yoke of the Horde that the revival and formation of Russian statehood in the northeast as the successor of Kievan Rus became possible. And those Old Russian principalities of western Russia, which were under the influence of the Catholic West, could not gain freedom and independence. So in fact, it is still unknown whose yoke was more destructive for Russia than the Mongolian or civilized western. Although the answer is obvious if you carefully approach this question.

[Frigate]

Quote: Ascetic

Before the adoption of Islam, it was so. Figuratively speaking, it turns out that the Steppe saved Russia from forced Catholicization by fire and sword from the extinction and assimilation of Russians. It was under the yoke of the Horde that the revival and formation of Russian statehood in the northeast as a successor to Kievan Rus became possible. And those Old Russian principalities of western Russia, which were under the influence of the Catholic West, could not gain freedom and independence. So in fact, it is still unknown whose yoke was more harmful for Russia than the Mongolian or civilized western. Although the answer is obvious if you carefully approach this question.

Thank you Stanislav, as always, you are honest and objective

[Horde]

Quote: Ascetic

In short, it turns out that the Steppe saved Russia from forced Catholicization by fire and sword from the extinction and assimilation of Russians

, and the fact that even according to TI Russia was not going to, as you write, "catholicize" and Alexander Nevsky broke the Catholic nemchure and the crusaders became the first divers on Lake Peipsi, is that already forgotten?

[Ascetic]

Horde [/ b

It turns out that we saved Europe from the horde of nomads, and in gratitude for this the forces of the Teutonic Order and the Swedes decided to free us from the Mongol yoke and at the same time planted the Catholic faith and the power of the priests of the order and the Swedish kings from the wrong Greek faith. For some reason, Alexander Nevsky and the Novgorod people didn’t arrange such a layout. The Horde’s yoke, as you can see for our ancestors at that time, was certainly shameful and burdensome, but let’s dare to submit to Western civilizers and democrats. Scythians, as the poet used to say, we will figure it out ourselves and Stepan and we are destined to live together history and destiny, unless we once again bow to the West to die and get rid of religious fanaticism and nationalism on the other (which is also encouraged and cultivated with help of the West)

[Horde]

Quote: Ascetic

It turns out we saved Europe from a horde of nomads, and they, in gratitude for this, by the forces of the Teutonic Order and the Swedes decided to free us from the Mongol yoke and at the same time from the wrong

you can again judge for a long time, try and argue about the Mongol-Tatar yoke of MTI. On our site, probably, an article about MIT is thrown every six months and it starts to be discussed again, and the level of discussion seems to me to decrease, just VOICE statements are noticeably prevail. How can we seriously talk about MIT if Is the evidence for Iga extremely shaky?
- still cannot find the "capital of the world Karakorum"
- cannot find the grave of Genghis Khan
There is NO documentary evidence from MIT.
- sources such as the ancient Russian icons (Sergius of Radonezh with life) say that we will say Russian soldiers on the Kulikovo field and on both sides, and not Asians.

-It is estimated that for the two hundred thousandth Mongolian army there was an army of Batuhan THOUSAND TONS of iron, which is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE amount for the 13th century, so much began to be smelted only in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, and even then Russia and England
- the thousands-strong transition of the Mongolian army from "Monogolia" to Russia in winter conditions is an unthinkable event that defies any logical comprehension.
so much more ...

[BruderV]

Quote: Horde

- still cannot find the "capital of the world Karakorum"

Yah?

Quote: Horde

There is NO documentary evidence from MIT.

Receipts by Dmitry Donskoy about how much tribute was paid in what time period? And really not. Well, we all disagree, so there was nothing.

Quote: Horde

as the ancient Russian icons (Sergius of Radonezh with life) say that let’s say on the Kulikovo field and on both sides are Russian soldiers, not Asians.

Pfff ... Have you seen the Tatars? Well, if you didn’t even see the singer Alsu, remember I don’t know, Marat Safin. Well, there Asians wash concrete with a flat ...

Quote: Horde

it is estimated that for the two hundred thousandth Mongolian army there was an army of Batuhan THOUSAND TONS of iron, which is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE

Where does the data about 200 thousand come from? In the Middle Ages 5-8 thousand - it was already considered a huge army. So the Crusades were all the more out of this for this reason? Where does so much iron come from forged knights? And the ice battle too?

[Horde]

Yah?

what the fuck

Receipts by Dmitry Donskoy about how much tribute was paid in what time period?

I have not heard, well, show me what ..

Pfff ... Have you seen the Tatars? Well, if you didn’t even see the singer Alsu, remember I don’t know, Marat Safin. Well, there Asians wash concrete with a flat ...

Are you one of those who like to juggle, but have you seen the Mongols? here on a dashing skate ...

Where does the data about 200 thousand come from? In the Middle Ages 5-8 thousand - it was already considered a huge army.
So the Crusades were all the more out of this for this reason? Where did so much iron come from?
chained knights? And the ice battle too?

Well, at least Karamzin, others write more, up to half a million ...

Let’s calculate the minimum amount of iron per Mongol warrior on heavy
armed warrior sword sword, scabbard, armor, arrows with iron tips,
stirrups, horse armor, spear point, knife, file for sharpening weapons, helmet.
All this iron pulled 20kg on the warrior, on the horse the weight of the plate defense was 15-20kg.
heavily armed forces in relation to other troops 20%. Army invasion
Batu Khan was 150 thousand soldiers.
The total amount of iron with the horse on heavily armed soldiers 40kg multiplied by
20000 soldiers will be 800 tons of iron.
Light-warriors have an average weapon weight of 5-6 kg. The total weight of iron is 120 thousand.
720 tons of iron. Together with more than one and a half thousand tons of war iron. This is not
total quantity! Still, what would melt such an amount of iron
you need to have five times more charcoal !!! I repeat that in Mongolia
there is not enough forest for industrial development!

I want to say that iron production is very labor intensive and heavy, and therefore scary
expensive process about no thousands of tons melted in raw-air furnaces and other ancient
people didn’t know, there was no question. Therefore, all the stories about Mongolian iron-bound
warriors no more than the inflamed imagination of cabinet scientists who can’t imagine what
production of even approximately 1 kg of iron of poor quality requires 30-40 people / hours
efforts, and continuous.
http://chronologia.org/
http://chronologia.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=10592&forum

[BruderV]

I am in difficulty to answer cretinism. I write one thing, you generally read about the third. If ruschiy ezyk pirablem understand that? Go teach him. So understandable? Che is not clear, in the beginning the Mongols came, maybe twenty or thirty thousand, they could have disappeared like a drop in the sea later in the local population on the vast steppes and a hundred years later the only memory left from the Mongols, and the backbone of the horde was made up of the ancestors of modern Tatars mostly Caucasoid type. So the Franks always came - dispersed in the local Gauls, the Goths came - dissolved in the former Romans and Iberians.

[Horde]

I'm in difficulty

If you are at a loss what to say on the site then get out of here, without you it is easier to breathe. If you are rude, you will not be "at a loss" for long.
read near

As for the number of Mongolian troops in the Western Campaign, there are many points of view. Karamzin N.M. believed that an army of about 1237 thousand people invaded Russia in 500 (Karamzin, 1992, p. 182). Ivanin N.M. admitted that Batyev’s army had reached the number of 600 people (Ivanin, 000, p. 1875). Polemicizing with him, E. Hara-Davan believed that "it would be more accurate to assume that the Batu army that came out in 180 conquered Russia had from 1236 to 122 thousand people" (Hara-Davan, 150, S.1991-156). As Kargalov V.V. wrote most pre-revolutionary historians, such as Olenin A.N., Berezin I., Soloviev S.M., Golitsyn N., Ustryalov N.G., Ilovaisky D.I., Troitsky D.I. determined the strength of the Mongol army in the range from 157 thousand to half a million people. Soviet historians are Bazilevich K.V., Pashuto V.T., Razin E.A., Strokov A.A. were guided by a figure of 300 thousand people or were limited to a simple statement of the fact that the Mongol army was very numerous (Kargalov, 300, p. 1967). Skillfulness of such estimates was noted by Skrynnikov R.G. who wrote that “It is absolutely clear that significantly larger forces participated in the new invasion of Europe than Jebe and Subaeday had in 74. Nevertheless, the information about the participation of the 1223th army in the western campaign should be recognized as fantastic” (Skrynnikov, 300, p. 1991).

the backbone of the horde was the ancestors of modern Tatars - for the most part Caucasoid type.

figured it out myself?

As the Franks always came - dispersed in the local Gauls, the Goths came - dissolved in the former Romans and Iberians.

you read your theory of SOLUTION to your wife at night

[BruderV]

Quote: Horde

If you are at a loss what to say on the site then get out of here, without you it is easier to breathe. If you are rude, you will not be "at a loss" for long.

Yes, as it were, it is painfully painful to read the reasoning of people who cannot add up two numbers and from this they conclude that the person came from a rhino. If the unreal numbers of Mongol hordes are indicated, this means only one thing - the authors exaggerate or rewrite other authors who also know nothing about those times. When did Karamzin write his works? Obviously not in hot pursuit. They already thought of it before him. Gumilev for some reason estimates the size of the horde at 30-40 thousand people. You believe someone who is comfortable, I already understood this from your manner of communication - you answer questions selectively, distort, don’t understand them or don’t want to understand what is written, minus the answers like the last schoolboy. So why should I respect you?

[Horde]

BruderV,

Yes, as it were, it is painfully painful to read the reasoning of people who cannot add up two numbers and from this they conclude that the person came from a rhino.

such as you are called in RUS- EMPTY. Talking to YOU ​​ABOUT ANYTHING is like becoming like yourself.

When did Karamzin write his works? Clearly not in hot pursuit

yes, of course, NOT hot but Gumilyov, of course he’s hot

Gumilev for some reason estimates the size of the horde at 30-40 thousand people.

but Gumilyov thought how it is to Khan Batu with his 30 thousand soldiers to attack the state, let it be fragmented, but during the invasion one should always take into account the possibility of UNITING the principalities in the face of an external threat, especially since ancient Russia is a state that Gardarika was called the country of cities 30 thousand Moreover, how can one believe a historian who evaluates the economic power of the state as an ABSTRACT, coined definition of PASSIONARY?

I already understood this from your manner of communication - you answer questions selectively, you distort, do not understand them or do not want to understand what is written

oh tyzh ss ... ka is that I don’t miss someone else’s arguments? But what about your argument

Receipts by Dmitry Donskoy about how much tribute was paid in what time period?

why are you silent then there is nothing to say?

minus the answers like

they didn’t tell you at school that your scribbling is not evaluated for more

[BruderV]

Quote: Horde

oh tyzh ss ... ka, I don’t miss someone else’s arguments? But what about your argument? A list of Dmitry Donskoy about how much tribute was paid in what time period? Why are you silent there is nothing to say?

And now we re-read what I have written:

You write: - NO MIT documentary evidence.
I write: A receipt from Dmitry Donskoy about how much tribute was paid in what time period? And really not. Well, we all disagree, so there was nothing.

I paraphrase what I wrote. What evidence is needed for the yoke? Do I need to provide documents that would accurately indicate when and how much tribute was paid? That is, if there are no such documents, but they are not, then there was no yoke? Ingenious. I marvel at the breadth of thought.
I did not answer just because you did not understand what was written, and I did not want to paint the explanations on my fingers at all.

[predator.3]

In fact, the Mongols had little iron armor, at first they made mostly of leather (bovine), and iron appeared in large numbers after the conquest of China.

[Horde]

Quote: predator.3

In fact, the Mongols had little iron armor, at first they made mostly of leather (bovine), and iron appeared in large numbers after the conquest of China.

we don’t know what percentage of soldiers in the iron, and which without the iron the Mongolian army had, is very much spread by historians, I quoted above the REAL armor of the Mongol warrior, which are stored in the London Museum of History. This is a complex, expensive and time-consuming product - a product of high technology, without jokes, that’s exactly what historians of the Mongol army describe to us. Like you’re kidding me, what fear, how Russian barbarians could resist such power, because it’s not casual. That the Mongols, that the Chinese in 1B CANNOT create weapons iron accepted direct quality in large kolichestvah.Osobenno Chinese are in the 20th century during the Mao syroduvnyh, self-made iron furnaces were trying to make, but it had to throw at pomoyku.Eto 20vek, and what to say about the age of 13? That's just funny!!!

[Horde]

that the Chinese are in 1c

in 13th century

[903006]

partly the Mongols had some armor, of course, but not all, those who were richer in those and had good armor and swords, and referring to the London Museum of History is still not very correct, I think, because the West remakes history in its own way, so has always been

[903006]

Correctly predator.3 says, what the hell did the Mongols have iron armor in those years, read books better, learn history, always rode horses, the army consisted mainly of archers, were light and maneuverable, therefore they defeated all armies in heavy armor, think better with your head, and turn on the logic, Horde !!!!

[Pinochet000]

Horde, but do not give any official historians their slaves built pyramids for them over 20 years, worked too hard and Moses took everyone to the desert to rest

[Passing]

Quote: Horde

- sources such as the ancient Russian icons (Sergius of Radonezh with life) say that we will say Russian soldiers on the Kulikovo field and on both sides, and not Asians.

It is necessary to work with primary sources, and not with manipulative images, open the full version of this icon:
http://content.foto.mail.ru/mail/777i/1/s-8.jpg
Where is there at least one Russian ??? Some dark-skinned Arabs-Byzantines in Roman armor, neither Tatars nor Russians there at all! This icon (and others too) was written strictly according to the biblical canon (Byzantine). Therefore, it makes no sense to look for Russians or Tatars there. In addition, this icon of the 17th century, i.e. most likely, the icon painter of the Tatar warrior has never been seen at all.
The same with earlier pictures of the 14-16 century. They are made strictly in the same manner, just twin brothers, i.e. one artist painted as best he could, and his work was taken as a standard, from which they drew further "Russians" and "Tatars". These pictures have nothing to do with the real appearance of the warriors.

The capture of Kozelsk. A miniature of the 14th century. The original sample for copying in subsequent centuries.
Judging by the appearance of those depicted - not Russian hats, a purely European crown, etc. it was not domestic, but some invited European artist or his Russian student.

Standing on the Ugra in 1480. Russian miniature of the XVI century. The same style, exact copy!

[Horde]

Where is there at least one Russian ??? Some dark-skinned Arabs-Byzantines in Roman armor, neither Tatars nor Russians there at all! This icon (and others too) was written strictly according to the biblical canon (Byzantine). Therefore, it makes no sense to look for Russians or Tatars there. In addition, this icon of the 17th century, i.e. most likely, the icon painter of the Tatar warrior has never been seen at all.

the Byzantine Arabs are very good though not the Byzantine Australians
where are the Arabs? Do you even know the history of this icon? It was washed away from the drying oil, which completely BLACKED the image. Do you think that Dmitry formed an army of Arabs in "Zadonshchina"? On the icon there are NO images of ASIATS, this is FACT. Troops and stand and on the other side are walking under banners with SPASOM. Why suddenly you get the idea that other RUSSIAN icons also painted the manner of painting "strictly Byzantine".

The same with earlier pictures of the 14-16 century. They are made strictly in the same manner, just twin brothers, i.e. one artist painted as best he could, and his work was taken as a standard, from which they drew further "Russians" and "Tatars". These pictures have nothing to do with the real appearance of the warriors.

Again, "do not have". Why is it "have"? After all, the real Russian and the real Mongol are not twins at all, but quite the opposite. It is quite possible to get an idea of ​​what the soldiers looked like from one side and the other.
Your point of view "on the unreal canonical transmission of information" is precisely the "traditionally historical wrong view of history"

Judging by the appearance of those depicted - not Russian hats, a purely European crown, etc. it was not domestic, but some invited European artist or his Russian student.

especially those on the left in Russian hats
"European crown" is a Byzantine crown, which after the Great Troubles, for some reason, the Europeans abandoned. So the crowns are European, but the bows of the soldiers are also European? And, of course, the "Tatars" are very Tatar. But the image of horses on the icons should also be "canonical", i.e. a completely European horse without any deviations and differences in breeds, you probably know that Mongolian horses are very different from European ones?

[Passing]

Quote: Horde

She was laundered from drying oil, which completely BLACKED the image

Once again, here is the link to the picture in high resolution, open, do not be lazy:
http://content.foto.mail.ru/mail/777i/1/s-8.jpg
Look at the faces, there is not a close Russian type of person, but there are only and exclusively Arab-Byzantines. Not the Mongols, not the Buryats, but the Byzantines, understand the difference? And the blackout has nothing to do with it, just the face type is very characteristic, not Russian at all. It’s just obvious, I don’t understand how to argue with that.

Quote: Horde

. Why suddenly you get the idea that the manner of painting is "strictly Byzantine" so painted and other RUSSIAN icons.

I will probably surprise you very much, but Christianity came to Russia from Byzantium, and the first priests were Byzantine, and the first head of the Russian Church was a Byzantine, and the first Russian icons were painted naturally strictly from the Byzantine canon by Byzantine artists, and later by their Russian students, strictly so as taught by Byzantine teachers.

Quote: Horde

Again, "do not have". Why is it "have"?

Typical Russian helmet.

One of the typical 13th century Horde helmets.

What kind of helmets are these? When were they used in Russia?

And these are Russian nobles / executioners ??? !!! This is a typical image of Europe-Byzantium. Russia here does not even smell close.
Obviously, the artist never participated in any battles, and was never even an eyewitness of those events from which a couple of hundred years have passed. He sat himself all his life in a monastery without a man, read books, examined pictures in them, studied craft - icon painting. As taught him to draw several images, and painted. I simply could not draw another. Because it was not Rubens who taught him, but icon painters. For whom the first rule is the Canon, and deviation from it is heresy, it was driven into the subcortex.
Understand, the artist in the modern sense in those days in Russia was absent as a class. And in Europe, too, it was very tight with them. Most of them were very inept artisans. Those. they drew according to the template, according to the canon (not necessarily the church one), it's like a master of khokhloma, he can easily draw curls, but no "The Last Supper", he just can't, he is not an artist, he is a craftsman.

[Horde]

there is no Russian type of person close, but there are only exclusively Arab-Byzantines.

I hinted you a joke for the first time, but you did not understand and again oppress the same line.
Why on earth were Dmitry Ivanovich’s troops, some kind of Arab? where in what place is he them
dialed near Tula, from Ryazan or from Vladimir, or from Mecca wrote out? That the faces of the soldiers
not quite white noticeably without your insistence. You seem to be missing out on arguments that
I bring you will have to REPEAT ONCE AGAIN. Ikon was cleaned from dark drying oil and
multilayer, therefore, from the time factor and chemical exposure
changed the color palette of the icon, and especially this touched the places drawn by WHITE.
Therefore, to claim on the basis of dark persons that the soldiers of the ARAB, this is not even
science fiction, and some unhealthy sophistry.

Here is an example of the Mother of God with the baby "Our Lady of Kazan" pay attention,
the Russian face icon is dark especially compared to the European writing technique, according to your
logic, it turns out that the baby Jesus, also an Arab?

Madonna and Child, here is also a question - "Why does the baby Jesus look like on Russian icons
black-faced, and on European images a normal white, healthy child? "

your "russian helmet" looks sorry, like a bunch of go ... on, take it away.
here is RUSSIA HELMETS

I will probably surprise you greatly, but Christianity came to Russia from Byzantium, and
the first priests were Byzantine, and the first head of the Russian Church was
Byzantine, and the first Russian icons were written naturally strictly from the Byzantine

canon by Byzantine artists, and later their Russian students, strictly
since they were taught by Byzantine teachers.

maybe they were, or maybe not, now your traditional story is disputed

by reason of
that LIES too much, so your ideas about "CANON",
that Russians, Arabs,
Blacks, Mongols had to be written, as it canonically averaged not,
only they seem to me INSUFFICIENT. I think the icons conveyed
a picture of the world close to REAL,
not hallucinations of the old addict.

[Passing]

Quote: Horde

the first time I hinted at you as a joke, but you didn’t understand and again oppress the same line. Why on earth were Dmitry Ivanovich’s troops, some kind of Arab?

We say we don’t hear each other))) Once again I will clearly state my position - this is a conditional, symbolic image, like any icon. It’s pointless to look for some Russians or Tatars there, because Russians and Tatars simply do not exist in the fine church canon.

Quote: Horde

Here is an example of the Mother of God with the baby "Our Lady of Kazan" pay attention, the Russian icon faces are dark especially in comparison with the European writing technique

Arab, I’m conditional, I don’t know which particular group the faces in the icons belong to, I assume that this is either the Byzantine type or the Semitic type. This type is depicted on all canonical Russian icons, without exception. Well, it’s obvious that this is not a Russian type of person. About the Catholic frescoes - they were antagonists of Byzantium, it would be strange if they would follow the Byzantine canon. The Catholics remade the original Christianity for themselves, and it is not surprising that they have a Madonna and a baby who have European features and are dressed in European fashion)))
AND ONCE AGAIN REPEAT - where is the dark / light face here? If a black man clarifies, will you confuse him with a Russian? Or let's say the Georgian lighten, will also become directly indistinguishable from the Slav? The modeling of the face is different, the Slavs have one face, the Bulgarians have the third, the Semites have the fourth, etc. Well, you can easily distinguish Anglo-Saxon from the Slav? And they are both white. Or do you just not distinguish between them? Well then, arguing on this point is futile for me, then let victory in this dispute get you.)))

Quote: Horde

By your logic, it turns out that the baby Jesus is also an Arab?

Not an Arab, of course. As you know, he was born not far from the very places where Arabs and Israelis are now butting, eight kilometers from Jerusalem. It turns out that he was a Semite? The New Testament gives a definite answer - he was the son of God. Not the son of Adam or the son of David or any other Semitic tribe, but the son of God. Those. it turns out that it doesn’t.)))

Quote: Horde

your "Russian helmet" looks sorry, like a bunch of go ... on, take it away. here is RUSSIAN HELMETS

These are not Russian helmets, but fantasy reconstructions of analogues of unknown age and state affiliation. And here I have a genuine Russian helmet in the picture.
However, I do not categorically orient that such a concave helmet was not used by the Russians, but first, give real evidence of its use by the Russians in the 13th century. Not at 14, not at 16, namely during the Horde invasion. Those. show me a photo heap g ... on archaeological artifact in the form of a rusty-rusty helmet dating back to Russia of the 13th century.

[Horde]

this conditional, symbolic image, like any icon

if the image is "symbolic" then why do you insist on ARABAH, just like that?
If on the one hand Russians, and on the other Mongols, Asians

why shouldn't such a big difference be taken into account by icon painters?
Here we will NEVER agree with you,
-you think that icons are abstractions
- I believe, and not just me, that the icon conveyed a REAL PICTURE of the world.
The question remains for now.
By the way, your large-scale image of the icon is not at all better than what I brought because the COLOR TRANSFER on your large one is worse and it turns out that the faces of the soldiers are greatly darkened.

AND ONCE AGAIN REPEAT - where is the dark / light face here? If a black man clarifies, will you confuse him with a Russian? Or let's say the Georgian lighten, will also become directly indistinguishable from the Slav? The modeling of the face is different, the Slavs have one face, the Bulgarians have the third, the Semites have the fourth

do not distort, please, the facial features on the icon are almost indistinguishable, but you can orientate according to CUTS OF EYES and this section is not Asian.

Ayden in 1856 near the village of Nikolsky, near the station. Snake ex. Oryol province. 13th century.

[YuDDP]

Precisely. That is exactly what Fomenko and Nosovsky described. And those who did not read their works lost a lot. They lost their understanding of why Western Europe is afraid of us at the genetic level, for example.

[Frigate]

Quote: YuDDP

Precisely. That is exactly what Fomenko and Nosovsky described. And those who did not read their works lost a lot. They lost their understanding of why Western Europe is afraid of us at the genetic level, for example.

Dear, it is not necessary to extend Nosovsky and Fomenko to the already already stuffed with the brain information of dear readers, again taking aside

[Horde]

Quote: Frigate

do not spread Nosovsky and Fomenko

it’s certainly not up to you to decide what to give evidence on our website ...

[avreli]

Yes, the source is strong. Especially delivered a flying carpet.

[avreli]

Yes, the source is strong. Especially delivered a flying carpet.

[skrgar]

A bunch of +++++! That's it !! "Horde" "Igo" .. Yes, there was no such thing !! .. But it was that we were all united .. But aggressive Christianity began in Russia .. That was the other SLAVIC KINDS that did not like it .. and they "flooded". Do you know what taxes Genghis Khan introduced? - 10% !! What is this conqueror who collects 10% for such a large army? Such taxes are collected only from relatives ...

[BruderV]

Quote: Horde

what shall we say on the field of Kulikov and on both sides are Russian soldiers, not Asians.

I’m probably right now to tear someone’s consciousness to shreds, but on the side of the horde ... Genoese participated in the Battle of Kulikovo. This, of course, does not fit in anyone’s narrow perception of the world, especially those who represent the Mongoloid on a horse at the word Tatars.

[Horde]

Quote: BruderV

Right now, I’m probably going to tear someone’s consciousness to shreds,

CRAZY?! would you go where to take three hundred drops of essential valerian ...

[903006]

I do not agree with you, colleague "Horde". You probably read an alternative history from Fomenko and Nasovsky, do not screw nonsense, do not distort history, but what about the coins of those times found, is this not contested evidence, I'm not talking about excavations.

[BruderV]

Quote: Ascetic

Figuratively speaking, it turns out that the Steppe saved Russia from forced Catholicization by fire and sword from the extinction and assimilation of Russians

What nonsense. And Hitler’s attack on the USSR contributed to the development of industry in the Urals and in the Volga region. READ HISTORY, read about unianism in Belarus. Read about the conquest of Constantinople by the crusaders. Why are Belarusians and Greeks not Catholics now?

[Lee]

Quote: BruderV

Why now ... are Greeks not Catholics?

Until the Turks did not have time to catholicize, then it was too late.

[cdrt]

And Hitler’s attack on the USSR contributed to the development of industry in the Urals and in the Volga region

Well, on the other hand, in 2-3 thousand years, when We all will die excavations will be conducted on the territory of Russia, it turns out that at one time appeared any German garbage all garbage German burnt tanks, helmets in the Don steppes and HTZ UVZ in Tagil.
If there are few written sources, half of archaeologists will consider that it was the way you write

[skrgar]

Well yeah ... rubbish! And about "read" .. Eh, we should open the Vatican Library ...

[BruderV]

Quote: Ascetic

And those Old Russian principalities of western Russia, which were under the influence of the Catholic West, could not gain freedom and independence.

EEEmmm. Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Zemaitijsky and RUSSIAN. Is he talking about something? Is there his Orthodox metropolitan, no? For reference, the refilling started quite late already closer to the section. That is, there were no attempts to drive Russia into Islam from the horde during and after the Khan of Uzbekistan? Oh, these scribes. You are grateful to those who defeated the Horde at the Blue Waters a decade before the Battle of Kulikovo, otherwise they would go in ruffles and hijabs right now to the bad uncles from Europe.

[Yoshkin Kot]

and how did it end for the Orthodox? oppression and forced unity? i.e. catholicity, and tongue polonization

[BruderV]

Quote: Yoshkin Cat

and how did it end for the Orthodox? oppression and forced unity? i.e. catholicity, and tongue polonization

Maybe in the end, and so. But in fact during the time of the yoke there were two Russia southwestern and northeastern. The first did not pay tribute, but if it were also under the rule of the Horde, then in the northeast the Tatars would have felt much freer. It is obvious that the Tatars pitted Muscovy and the ON, so as not to fight the Lithuanian princes themselves, see how many Moscow-Lithuanian wars were at that time. Hence, tolerance is written here, although at the beginning Genghisides feasted on bones and laid out pyramids from their heads, it’s a shame to forget it. It wouldn’t have been ON since the Tatars would have forcibly Islamized all of Russia, because they would not have needed a strong vassal against their Western neighbors and you would have gotten not a little bit oppressed Ukrainians and Belarusians, but I don’t know a completely Turkic-speaking Russia or Rusistan, they would have succeeded for sure.

[RomanK]

"IV. After that, the aforementioned prince sent one minister with us to Kiev. Nevertheless, we rode constantly in mortal danger because of the Lithuanians, who often and secretly, as far as they could, made raids on the land of Russia and especially in those places, through which we had to pass; and since most of the people of Russia were killed by the Tatars or taken prisoner, they therefore could not offer them strong resistance, and from the Russians themselves we were safe thanks to the above-named minister ... "Plano Carpini.

And everyone paid tribute. And Daniel with Burundi went to Lithuania.

[stalker]

And the ogreb, as follows from the Horde, later at the other river, I don’t remember the name, I repent.

[Beck]

Quote: Ascetic

Figuratively speaking, it turns out that the Steppe saved Russia from forced Catholicization by fire and sword from the extinction and assimilation of Russians.

Towards the end of 1300, the Great Lithuanian Principality was enormously strengthened, led by the Catholic Grand Duke Vitovt.

Catholic Rome hoped, with the help of Catholic Lithuania, to promote its influence in Eastern Europe. For this, two bullae were published. One against the Golden Horde. Another against Muscovy. To carry out the ideological enslavement of Orthodoxy in Russia, and the conquest of the North-Eastern Russian lands was supposed to be carried out by the forces of Lithuania.

By the 1390s, Lithuania had taken possession of the Western Russian principalities, Kievan Rus, and was at the zenith of power.

For the final triumph of Catholicism in Eastern Europe, Muscovy was needed. In 1399, Vytautas gathered a large army. In addition to the Litvin, the army included squads of the West Russian princes, the troops of the Polish gentry Pan Shurkovsky, and the German knights of the Teutonic Order of the Grand Master Konrad von Jungingepna. And for the first time in Eastern Europe, in the army of Vytautas there was artillery, squealing, self-propelled guns.

The Khan of the Golden Horde Temir-Kutlug was put forward a demand. That he gave Muscovy to Vitovt. Nahrap was there, but the strongest army of those times was also there. Temir-Kutlug hesitated. The decisive temnik Edigheus intervened and the Horde troops moved towards Vytautas's army. Troops met on the River Worksle on August 12, 1399. It was the largest confrontation of troops in medieval Europe and the bloodiest.

Vytautas Cathedral Army was utterly defeated. About 50 princes died. Prince Vitovt barely survived.

So at the last gasp of its existence, the Golden Horde did not allow the plans of Rome to catalyze Eastern Europe to come true.

[Beck]

Quote: Beck

Towards the end of 1300, the Great Lithuanian Principality was enormously strengthened, led by the Catholic Grand Duke Vitovt.

The territory of Lithuania at the time of its power.

[BruderV]

Oh how! It is urgent to start paying tribute to the Mongols or Kazakhs, even though now they protect us from Europe. The words of Vitovt himself that he was going to conquer the Horde, and not Muscovy, and put there the throne of the ally Tokhtamysh. Your pathetic attempts to falsify the history of a penny are not worth it, even shkolota will figure out where the lie is. The horde now appears to be defending Muscovy after the Battle of Kulikovo and the burning of Moscow. Ingenious. And why did the Lithuanian princes participate in the Battle of Kulikovo against the Horde? Also to Catholicize Muscovy?

[Beck]

Quote: BruderV

About how!

And why such an imposing and self-confident tone? And what have the Kazakhs to do with it? Did you inject this word to increase your own snobbery?

The reasons for this battle are many versions. And the words from the Russian annals are not always true historical data. Most researchers attribute these annals not to historical documents, but to historical narratives with postscripts of their wishes.

What I wrote in komenta is not my interpretation, I am not a historian by education. These are calculations from the historical works of L. Gumilyov, doctor of historical sciences, professor Klyashtorny head. Department of Turkology and Mogolistics of St. Petersburg University. The Golden Horde throne of Tokhtamysh was supposed, but without Muscovy. This is the Volga region, the Caucasus, Crimea.

First of all, the Horde defended its integrity. It was later, historically, that the defeat at Worksle stopped the advance of Catholicism. Did you really think that Edigei, leading his troops, said that he would stop the advance of Catholicism?

Kulikovo battle. By giving spirit to the Russians in the future struggle for liberation, the Kulikovo battle is invaluable. At the same historical moment in 1380, the Battle of Kulikovo was not a battle for the liberation of Russia, but a battle against the usurper of power, Mamaia, on the khan’s throne.

Prince of Moscow Dmitry, before that, 7 years old, did not pay Mamay tribute because he did not consider him a legal khan. By this time, in the steppes, from the other side, the rightful Khan Tokhtamysh was approaching the Volga, collecting troops. And he sent labels to his people, so that they would not recognize Mamaia. And Dmitry brought the Russian troops to Kulikovo Field not as a confrontation to the Horde, but as a confrontation to the impostor. And he won. After the defeat, Mamai gathered his troops again and sent them out against Tokhtamysh crossing the Volga. But Mamai’s wars got off their horses, before the battle, and knelt down, recognizing the power of Tokhtamysh, Mamai fled to Crimea where he was killed. Khan Tokhtamysh recognized and Dmitry, but then, there was some kind of confusion in their relationship. And Tokhtamysh in 1382 captured and burned Moscow. Then he walked away and again issued a confirmation label for reigning in Moscow to Dmitry. And the Lithuanian princes in the Battle of Kulikovo did not fight against Mamaia. They were allies of Mamaia. And they didn’t have time for the battle. We limited ourselves only to the fact that the returning carts were ravaged and finished off the wounded Russian wars.

Now about your manner of communication and tone of discourse. "Pathetic attempts", "broken penny", "lie". They did not teach you how to speak normally, it is better not to interfere with the conversation. If you haven't learned the story, don't get involved in the conversation. And if you do, then follow the rules of decency.

[BruderV]

Quote: Beck

what do the Kazakhs have to do with it?

So why all these attempts to whitewash and decorate the Horde? Do you consider yourself their heirs or like-minded people?

Quote: Beck

And why such an imposing and self-confident tone?

In general, because of this phrase "in the last gasp of its existence, the Golden Horde did not allow Rome's plans to catalyze Eastern Europe come true" At least the Horde did not have such a goal, it just happened by chance. Maybe it is better to speculate how much the Horde did not allow the development and strengthening of Orthodoxy in Eastern Europe? Constantly either Northeastern Russia - its vassal robbed, pitted princes against each other, etc., then it also attacked Southwestern Russia. Why the modern territories of Ukraine and Belarus were forced to go under the control of the Lithuanian prince - because of the Horde, in order not to pay tribute to them, in the end it was necessary to fall under the rule of Catholics. The Horde constantly pitched the Tverites with the Muscovites, then specially gave it to reinforce the ball of Muscovy and began to pit it against the ON (where most of the population and, accordingly, the troops -
these are the same Rusichi). And you bring me some professors, do you think the professor is a deity of chtoli for me? The Horde threw back Russia in the development of many centuries ago and would not allow Orthodoxy to intensify, without the Horde no dad would have thought to climb Russia

Quote: Beck

And the Lithuanian princes in the Battle of Kulikovo did not fight against Mamaia.

And what about Andrei Olgerdovich and Dmitry Olgerdovich? No?

[Beck]

Quote: BruderV

So why all these attempts to whitewash and decorate the Horde? Do you consider yourself their heirs or like-minded people?

I perceive the Golden Horde as a historical-territorial entity and to some extent I recognize the descendants of those tribes that ruled in the Horde. Just as I recognize Kievan Rus and the Russian people as heirs to this historical state.

You, recognizing Kievan Rus and yourself as its heir, do not give other people the same. In false patriotism, you close your eyes to history and in a fit of "greatness" distort this history. For some reason, you are uncomfortable that history has developed in such a way that the Horde was formed. And the Kazakhs as a people took shape only in the 14th century.

Quote: BruderV

Perhaps it is better to speculate how much the Horde did not allow the development and strengthening of Orthodoxy in eastern Europe? Constantly, North-Eastern Russia - plundered its vassal, pitted princes with each other, etc., then it also attacked south-western Russia.

Russia was a part of the Horde as an independent territorial entity, in modern terms, on the basis of broad autonomy. As well as the Crimea, the Caucasus, Bulgaria. Horde garrisons in Russian cities did not stand. Cities and destinies were ruled by Russian princes with their squads. There was no tribute as such. It is in the later works of nationalist Russian scholars that a simple tax turned into a tribute. The tax was estimated at 10 part of the property and paid in cash. Going once a year. First, the Basques, then the Russian prince of Moscow, starting with Ivan Kalita and centrally sent to the Horde. On this, Moscow rose ahead of the former capital, the capital city of Vladimir. And this tax was paid, and the Crimea, and the Caucasus, and Bulgaria, and any nomad. Under the Horde, a postal service was established - pits. Which existed in Russia until the middle of the 19th century. The control system in some part also moved to Russia from the Horde.

Orthodoxy.

[Beck]

Quote: Beck

Orthodoxy

Orthodoxy. I will rely on Yasa Genghis Khan.

Yasa prescribes “first, to love one another; secondly, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not be a traitor; to honor the elders and the poor, and if there is someone between them who violates these commandments, those who are to be put to death. ”

Yasa has a section dealing with crimes against religion, morality, and established customs. Such are recognized - Oppression of ANY OF THE CHURCHES AND THE Clergy EXISTING IN THE WORLD, INSURANCE OF THE RITUALIST CHARACTER, intentional lie, adultery, debauchery.

It was on the basis of this section that the Orthodox Church of Rus was privileged. Churches were not taxed. The priests were untouchables. The formation of intra-church courts was allowed, no one could interfere in their affairs and decisions. Therefore, Orthodoxy in Russia not only did not die out, but also flourished. In 1345, Khan Uzbek adopted Islam in the state. But it concerned only the nomadic population. This new science did not concern Russia.

The princes of Lithuania Andrei and Dmitry were only Lithuanians themselves. But in fact, they were governors of Prince Dmitry Donskoy in the Russian cities of Pskov and Pereyaslavl-Zalesky. And their army was from Rusich.

The present Lithuanians, under the command of Prince Jagiello, were late for the day's battle. And it was they who smashed Russian wagons and finished off wounded Russian wars.

And so it happened in history that on the "last gasp" the Horde defeated the army of Vitovt. Then no one could know that the Horde was coming to an end. Both Temir-Kutlug and Edigei were confident in the bright future of the Horde. It was only history that subsequently determined that the Horde would not last long after the Battle of Worksle.

Well, if famous historians and ethnographers are some kind of "professors" for you, then I have nothing to say. Then rely on whoever you want in your hurt (false-patriotic) pride. Though on the maps and opuses of astrologers.

[903006]

Ascetic, you answered better nowhere in the top ten

[Ross]

Frigate,
Batu (Batya) was not a Mongoloid, like his army. Representative of TarTaria or Siberian Russia.

[Frigate]

Quote: Ross

Batu (Batya) was not a Mongoloid, like his army. Representative of TarTaria or Siberian Russia.

But do not you think that Batu is in the Turkic West. Batu Khan is the Western Khan, Shyngys Khan - This is the Eastern Khan

[Ross]

Frigate,

Quote: Frigate

Quote: Ross
Batu (Batya) was not a Mongoloid, like his army. Representative of TarTaria or Siberian Russia.

But do not you think that Batu is in the Turkic West. Batu Khan is the Western Khan, Shyngys Khan - This is the Eastern Khan

And you better take a look at this:
Monument to Khan Batu, installed in Turkey in the city of Sogut. Literal translation of the tablet: Altinordi Devleti - Warlord (Gauleiter - modern)
Then look on the Internet a portrait of Timur or Tamerlane. Up there, on the right is written -Tartaria.

http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2013/750/grga60.jpg
The era of the Golden Horde was distinguished by the fact that, along with secular power, there was a strong military power. There were two rulers: the secular, who was called the prince, and the military, they called him the khan, i.e. "Commander."

[Ross]

Here he is a portrait of Tamerlane with the inscription Tartaria
http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2013/242/zoqj211.jpg

[Frigate]

Quote: Ross

Here he is a portrait of Tamerlane with the inscription Tartaria

And why is the word Tartaria? Do you want to justify Levashov with this?

[Beck]

Quote: Ross

Here he is a portrait of Tamerlane with the inscription Tartaria

So over there, what? You are a supporter of the mythical Tartaria. Well, then why turn the millstone. And, by the way, the clothes in the portrait are not at all Central Asian. And you can inscribe anything on the portrait.

The term Tartaria itself goes back to the following. European geographers of the early centuries (from the 13th century) vaguely imagined what was located beyond the Don and Volga, or did not imagine at all. And the entire territory east of the Volga to the Pacific Ocean and China was called the distorted, Europeanized word of Tartary. From the Russian pronunciation of the Turkic word Turkilar - Tatars, Tatars and Tataria as the place of residence of the Tatars. Even Tartaria among the Western Europeans was associated with the Greek Tartarus - the underworld.

For them, this land was terra incognito and they named it by a generic name, hoping to later explore. So, some pseudo-historians took advantage of such uncertainty when they began to ascribe the term to anything.

[Frigate]

Quote: Beck

So over there, what? You are a supporter of the mythical Tartaria. Well, then why turn the millstone. And, by the way, the clothes in the portrait are not at all Central Asian. And you can inscribe anything on the portrait.

The term Tartaria itself goes back to the following. European geographers of the early centuries (from the 13th century) vaguely imagined what was located beyond the Don and Volga, or did not imagine at all. And the entire territory east of the Volga to the Pacific Ocean and China was called the distorted, Europeanized word of Tartary. From the Russian pronunciation of the Turkic word Turkilar - Tatars, Tatars and Tataria as the place of residence of the Tatars. Even Tartaria among the Western Europeans was associated with the Greek Tartarus - the underworld.

For them, this land was terra incognito and they named it by a generic name, hoping to later explore. So, some pseudo-historians took advantage of such uncertainty when they began to ascribe the term to anything.

Hello, brother. This is an ordinary Troll and a hamster of Levashov and the like, they are unlikely to appreciate your work, which will open their eyes to them, they are firmly convinced in all sects

[Horde]

You are a supporter of the mythical Tartaria.

Beck, you kind of took part
http://topwar.ru/23380-kto-zhe-stroil-etu-stenu.html#comment-id-866664

I tried to talk there with Uncle Seryozha, who kind of hinted that he had some
touching the story (the conversation didn’t work out the opponent went aside), and so
GREAT TARTARIA existed and is proved to be very simple
There is a HUGE amount of old maps depicting this state
and denying it means denying not only the obvious and the story, but also common sense.
I'll try the same thing, but with you. So the English encyclopedia of 1771 is famous and
Dear Britannica.

to what Uncle Seryozha said with the air of an expert - "fake" I managed to find a link to
a complete edition of Britannica here please
http://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3535789
no fakes and no fraud, everything is real.
So the Great or Russian Tartary in Moscow existed and then immediately arises
flurry of questions:
- Does history mean lying?
-so Russia had fleets before Peter because Tartary existed before Peter,
and looking at the cards we see a large number of overseas possessions.
What relations did such a huge state have with other countries?
subordinate-vassal, and it’s clear who is in charge, probably the one who is bigger?
-Well, a fundamental question, SO WHO IS THE FOMENCO OR TRADITION RIGHTS?

[BruderV]

Quote: Horde

So here is the English encyclopedia of 1771, the famous and respected Britannica.

And where is "Moscow Tartaria" on it? Latin in white says Russian empire A Independent tartary is Central Asia

[Horde]

I told you, you need to open the British and marvel yourself

[Horde]

I said that you have to discover Britannica yourself

[BruderV]

Quote: Horde

I said that you have to discover Britannica yourself

Well? In the district of Moscow, Russia is written there, and in the Kazan region Moskovite tartary, where, oddly enough, Tataria is now located. What is the sensation then?

[Horde]

Quote: BruderV

Well? In the district of Moscow, Russia is written there, and in the Kazan region Moskovite tartary, where, oddly enough, Tataria is now located. What is the sensation then?

you know, for some reason I don’t want to talk with you

[Beck]

Quote: Horde

So the Great or Russian Tartary in Moscow existed and then immediately arises

English Encyclopedia of 1771. What year the card placed there is unknown. As I wrote above, Tartaria denotes lands unknown to British scientists. That is, they do not know what kind of peoples live there, what kind of state they are. So they called the vast territory unknown to them Tartaria. Perhaps according to the Tataria known to them, but in order to distinguish it from the famous Tataria, they slightly changed it. Or they gave it such a name in accordance with the Greek myth of Tartarus - the underworld. Unknown underworld.

Other European medieval maps show Europe, the southern coast of the Mediterranean Sea. And then some unknown land was drawn and each cartographer could call it with his fictitious name, but more often they called terra incognito - an unknown land. So terra incognito definitely Tartaria.

And now to attribute to this name all false-patriotic, in my opinion, to their own detriment.

[Horde]

Quote: Beck

Tartaria marked lands unknown to British scientists.

on page 683, which I brought to you in an encyclopedia, the world capitals of the CITY OF THE CAPITAL are listed in English, and so there specifically
Tartaria-Tobolsk
Independent Tartaria-Samarkand
Chinese (China) Tartaria - Chinyang
if everything is in order with logic, then answer, how can the TERRITORY be a capital?

[Beck]

Quote: Horde

Tartaria-Tobolsk Independent Tartaria-Samarkand China (China) Tartaria - Chinyan

All is correct. For the most part they did not know, what they knew was indicated by the collective name of Tartary. They knew Samarkand, but did not know that there lived Uzbeks, Kyrgyz, Tajiks. Here in a crowd and called all the Tartars. They did not know anything about the steppes of Kazakhstan, Altai, the Dzungarian Alatau, and the Xinjian region and simply called Tartaria.

So terra incognito definitely Tartaria.

[Horde]

For the most part they did not know, what they knew was indicated by the collective name of Tartary.

in general, any country always has a name according to the NAME of the people living there, as you can call the territory on which the Kyrgyz, Uzbeks or Tajiks lived alien TARTARIA, after all, this is unnatural, the Russians, of course, say GERMANS OR CHINESE, not DUCHERS OR HANTS, but they mean exactly those peoples who live in this territory and most importantly have their own STATE i.e. signs of the state BORDER with other countries, as well as the CAPITAL - the city where the government is located. And in your opinion it turns out stupid Angles from a lantern - this is in the 18th century, they called huge territories with all the peoples living there by the name of the people who have nothing to do with this locality on this. The picture is INCREDIBLE.
I remind you that according to the census of 1897 of the Russian Empire, such people as SARTY lived on the territory of present-day Uzbekistan. These were sedentary farmers, whom scholars of that time classify as people with Aryan appearance who speak Türkic, subsequently made up a nation under Lenin. UZBEKI. It seems to me that it is the Sartes who are the descendants of the Horde, or, as in the British of Moscow Tartary.
I had an image of the sarts of the photographer 19-20v Prokudin-Gorsky I can not find now lay out later.
But the image of a girl from the territory of Pakistan, the Kalashi tribe, is a strange name.

[Beck]

Quote: Horde

in general, any country always has a name by NAME

Well, what do you explain on the fingers. The Uzbeks knew, the Tajiks knew. But the British! For 7-18 centuries they knew vaguely or did not know at all, so they wrote it with a common name. It is not known when this map was drawn. This encyclopedia was published in 1771, and the map is not known when There and the Meridians are not precisely indicated, so now it is said that the rotation of the earth has changed. And the coastlines are not accurate, so that the tsunami washed away everything. In addition, this card may be in the section - an example of early cards. And now there are folios in libraries where cards on a chinach from ancient are illustrated.

And in general, why discuss the mythical. Do you believe your imagination in Tartaria, well, believe it. God help you. All wishes and all the rest. I saw maps where the territory is designated as Vampiria and an explanation that vampires live there and you don’t need to go there. So all this for nothing.

[Horde]

It is not known when this map was drawn.

here is a map from the French encyclopedia, too, everything is in place and parallels and meridians
Well, here you have a Russian map of 1737 Tartaria in place

Do you believe your imagination in Tartaria, well, believe it.

it’s just that I don’t deal with issues of faith, but like all other people who are interested in history and who love their country and therefore I don’t consider the nonsense of the Trades about, say, the Mongol-Tatar invasion, who are trying to impose their faith on others.

[Frigate]

Quote: Ross

Altinordi Devleti - Warlord (Gauleiter - modern)

Your source of interpretation is extremely wrong, please at least think with your head. Altyn, altin with Turk. GOLD. Horde, hordes, hordes from the Turk. languages ​​translates as a center or most often as a territory. as a result, Altinordi is the Golden Horde. Devleti is how a ruler is translated.
From all this we can conclude that you are a beginner Troll.

[Beck]

Quote: Ross

Monument to Khan Batu, installed in Turkey in the city of Sogut. Literal translation of the tablet: Altinordi Devleti - Warlord (Gauleiter - modern)

In my opinion, your statement about secular and military power is unfounded. Nomadic states like the Golden Horde are called "stinking democracy". The Golden Horde is already a dying type of such democracy. So there was no division into secular and military power (in general, where does this come from. There is a division of spiritual and secular power and in no other way). There was one power of the khan. And the khan already had military and economic rulers of separate territories - beklyarbeki, temniki. They have beks, tarhans, and murzas.

The monument in Turkey is not a monument to the historical person of Batu, but a monument to the historical era. And devlet is a later concept that entered the Turkish language much later. And the khan is not a military commander. The military commander was just a temnik and a belyarbek, their functions included the leadership of the army, the supreme court, and some foreign policy functions.

Khan (Turkic Kan; Mong. Khan) - Turkic-Mongolian title. In the era of tribal relations among the Turkic-speaking nomads, the so-called person who united blood relatives (Kan translated from Turkic: blood / blood relationship in one clan. Khan, who managed to unite a large number of clans, was called kagan. Originally sounded like Kan. Phoneme replacement “K” on “x” is natural in Turkic languages, and is not unusual.

[predator.3]

Quote: Ostanin

The article is interesting. For myself, I concluded that if the "Mongol-Tatars" had not come to Russia, Russia as such would not have become. Western "democratizers" would have been torn to pieces - everything went to this. So, who actually were these "Mongol-Tatars" invaders or liberators?

The question is good, it is difficult to answer unequivocally, the Russian principalities recognized the power of the Horde Khan, paid tax (tribute), but retained their control system, land, etc. participated in campaigns in the 13th centuries. and the horde helped the troops, especially against Lithuania. As for the size of the tribute, some exact data has not been preserved, except for one mention that Tversk. prince. paid 2 thousand. rubles, and Moscow and Pereyaslavl 1250 rubles during the reign of Yuri Danilovich, the elder brother of Ivan Kalita, in the first quarter of the 13th century, and then the ruble is half the Novgorod hryvnia, approx. 100 grams of silver, but as for the rest of the principalities (Ryazank, Nizhny Novgorod, etc.), I have not seen any data.

[alebor]

These "internationalists" helped Ryazan especially well, which never recovered from their "help." As you know, the current Ryazan is the renamed Pereyaslavl Ryazan. And from the old Ryazan there were only ruins and embers.

[Yoshkin Kot]

what did you want? the era of humanism has not yet arrived, vigorous loaves have not yet been.
ps do you think the crusaders didn’t do the same? or Russians taking a city attack wherever in the Baltic?
just do not forget, they did not leave the garrisons, did not touch the local system of power and the soul of the people, without touching Vera. The "civilized" west would have acted differently, and now you would have spanked on the wild Slavic-German surzhik

[BruderV]

Quote: Yoshkin Cat

you would now spree on wild Slavic-German surzhik

That is, under Nevsky, Germanization is evil, and under Peter and the palace coups, total Germanization, when the nobility spoke less Russian than other languages, is this good? Maybe you should include the brain? Or what will they write - is that true? Nothing that after Peter ALL the kings were Germans by blood? Why don't I speak German? And the fact that the horde of Russian civilization threw back 200 years in development, now it turns out to be our only right way. Why Belarusians and Ukrainians after 500 years of being in the Principality of Lithuania, and then the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth do not speak Lithuanian or Polish? Nothing that half of the Russian nobility came from the Lithuanian Gideminovichi? Kindergarten, pants on the straps chesslovo.

[cdrt]

Moreover. It was not Muscovites and Novgorodians who won the Teutonic Order with the help of the Tatars, but still Belarusians, Ukrainians, Russians (Smolensk), Lithuanians, Poles under the command of Lithuanians in general (Jagiello is at least a king and a Polish, but still a Litvin). Although the same with the participation of the Tatars - well, without them.

[Yoshkin Kot]

Yeah, but what happened to the Order of the Swordsmen were not interested?

[Yoshkin Kot]

all the kings were descendants of Ivan the Fifth, the brother of Peter the Great, with the suppression of the straight line they inherit after the female! Learn Russian history and Russian folk law!

[Frigate]

Quote: Yoshkin Cat

what did you want? the era of humanism has not yet arrived, vigorous loaves have not yet been.
ps do you think the crusaders didn’t do the same? or Russians taking a city attack wherever in the Baltic?
just do not forget, they did not leave the garrisons, did not touch the local system of power and the soul of the people, without touching Vera. The "civilized" west would have acted differently, and now you would have spanked on the wild Slavic-German surzhik

Test

[cdrt]

Slavic-German surzhik - you are Belarusian and Ukrainian Russian dialects do you call languages?
They then as part of the ON survived Drang nah Osten. Cultural features have been preserved completely, and those who were generally crushed to the east by vassals (allied Poland with the Litvin king) were made.
But essentially an empire of steppe without invasion Muscovy could not be built.
As there Berg's law sounds - "... not a single ethnic group in the process of ethnogenesis, you went beyond the enclosing landscape ...". The enclosing landscape of the Eastern Slavs is the coast of the rivers of the forest and forest-steppe zones of Eurasia. There would be no steppe inhabitants, they could not master the Wild Field, the south of Siberia, Transbaikalia, etc.,

[Yoshkin Kot]

The languages ​​you mentioned are Polish surzhik

[cdrt]

Ioshkin Cat !!! (in the sense of exclamation) ...
We are already on you !!! (exclamation again)

[Petrospek]

and what did the internationalists do with Bulgaria? "Internationalized"!

[cdrt]

Well, Bogolyubsky, too, after all, Kiev was betraying fire and sword

[skrgar]

"Renamed" .. Ryazan is the original name of the "shtetl" .. Which correctly means Ra - God, Zan - Zaimka .. That is .. GOD'S LOCATION ... or according to the modern PLACE OF GOD ... A "Zaimka" because OKO RA (EYE OF GOD) "was" between the rivers "bends" of the rivers OKA and MOSCOW (look at the map) ... And the "pupil of the eye" is the Central Temple in Moscow .. in the place of which the Cathedral of Christ the Savior is now ... Here, in short ... And since Ryazan is located beyond the Oka River, therefore, therefore, it is a "catch" ...

[Yoshkin Kot]

RI took a lot of useful from the Horde, at least religious tolerance and ethnic tolerance

[BruderV]

Quote: Yoshkin Cat

RI took a lot of useful from the Horde, at least religious tolerance and ethnic tolerance

Jubilation. Poor people, where have you been taught? According to Bekmambetov’s films chtoli? Especially after the capture of Kazan, tolerantly all Tatars were evicted from there for 300 years. And the Caucasus, as tolerantly conquered ... In vain the truth is now forgotten about the lessons of General Ermolov.

[cdrt]

Relative to 120 years of religious wars in Europe - Muscovy was directly a model of religious tolerance
Well, and about Ermolov - the Chechens still have sex as a people of as many as a million. And if you recall the large Indian tribes of North America (those whose settlers paid money for as well as wolf tails), for example, the Seminoles, they were exterminated a little less than completely. In times by the way, close to the Caucasian war.

[Yoshkin Kot]

and? that they were cut out under the root? or gave plague blankets? Yes, and they evicted them from the middle of 16 (1552) to Catherine the Great, and this is the end of the 18th century, so do not exaggerate

[Yoshkin Kot]

for money (small silver coin) from smoke (at home) about 1 gram of silver

[Frigate]

Quote: Yoshkin Cat

for the money

There is a version that the Russian "money" is a distorted "tenge" used in those days, which is now again the currency of Kazakhstan.

[romb]

There is a version that the Russian "money" is a distorted "tenge" used in those days, which is now again the currency of Kazakhstan.

This is not even a version, but rather a fact!

[Horde]

This is not even a version, but rather a fact!

well try to prove your "fact"

[Setrac]

This controversial statement, the fact of similarity proves only the similarity, but not the birthright of tenge before money, perhaps on the contrary, tenge came from money.

[romb]

Tenge (money) has the root ten, (den), which in any existing Turkic dialect means a word that can be translated as - equal in price, the established equivalent to something.

[Beck]

Quote: Horde

well try to prove your "fact"

Easily.

MONEY (Turk.), Rus, silver, coin 14-18 centuries, 200 Moscow D. made up mosk. ruble. In 17-19 aa. Copper Money was also minted.

Soviet encyclopedic dictionary.

Money (word of Turkic origin), Russian silver coin of the 14-18th centuries. From the hryvnia of silver (48 spools), 200 Money was minted, which amounted to the Moscow ruble. Initially, Money was minted in Moscow, and at the beginning of the 15th century. in almost all Russian principalities. In the 17th and 1st quarter of the 18th centuries. along with silver Money, copper Money was minted

Great Soviet Encyclopedia.

Money (until the end of the XNUMXth century - denga, from the Turk. täŋkä - coin) - the collective name of ancient Russian silver coins minted from the second half of the XNUMXth century in Moscow, Novgorod, Ryazan, Tver and other coin minting centers (synonyms - “kuns”, “scales”)


WIKI

And now you also simply refute. And not in a hurray-patriotic rage.

[Horde]

Russian MONEY
a related tribute is also Russian, the connection, as you can see, is very noticeable, the Russians led conquests and encircled the peoples with a tribute, which was collected in the form of MONEY. Everything is simple in Russian, even without reference to dictionaries.

[romb]

Well then, how do you like the other option.
Tribute was a kind of "fiscal payment" where a certain unit acted as an object of "taxation" - a hut, a plow, a craft workshop, etc.
The word "Tribute" has the root "DAN", which will be translated from most Türkic languages ​​as: quantity, unit of goods.
For example: Bir dana - one thing.

[Horde]

Quote: Frigate

There is a version that the Russian "money" is a distorted "tenge" used in those days, which is now again the currency of Kazakhstan.

those. The Russian word "money" known from the chronicles from the 15th-16th century is a compilation from the modern Kazakh "tanga" that appeared at the end of the 20th century? Are you all right with your head?

[Frigate]

Quote: Horde

those. The Russian word "money" known from the chronicles from the 15th-16th century is a compilation from the modern Kazakh "tanga" that appeared at the end of the 20th century? Are you all right with your head?

This is not all right with you, first read as I wrote and comprehend, then demand evidence. I wrote "once used in those days" tenge ","

[Horde]

Quote: Frigate

I wrote "tenge, which was used in those days,"

here and show "tanga", which is older than "money", then we will argue what happened in the beginning ...

[cdrt]

Horde
those. The Russian word "money" known from the chronicles from the 15th-16th century is a compilation from the modern Kazakh "tanga" that appeared at the end of the 20th century? Are you all right with your head?


Google to help you! About how many wonderful discoveries we have ... A. Pushkin

I'm certainly not a philologist, in my opinion in the Slavic languages ​​t- in d- goes
This is the first.

"... Borrowing from Türkic; compare: tat., Chagat. Täŋkä" money; silver coin ", Chuv täŋgǝ, Kazakh teŋgä, Mong. Teŋge, Kalm. Tēŋgn̥" small silver coin. "The source of these words searched in Middle Persian dāng, New Persian dānag “coin”, Old Persian δανάκη (Heracleid in “Etym. Magn.”) "
Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language M.Fesner

This is the second.

So ... little face

[Frigate]

Quote: cdrt

Google to help you! About how many wonderful discoveries we have ... A.S. Pushkin

I'm certainly not a philologist, in my opinion in the Slavic languages ​​t- in d- goes
This is the first.

"... Borrowing from Türkic; compare: tat., Chagat. Täŋkä" money; silver coin ", Chuv täŋgǝ, Kazakh teŋgä, Mong. Teŋge, Kalm. Tēŋgn̥" small silver coin. "The source of these words searched in Middle Persian dāng, New Persian dānag “coin”, Old Persian δανάκη (Heracleid in “Etym. Magn.”) "
Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language M.Fesner

This is the second.

So ... little face

Well you just killed Quickly respond. You big MINUS A PLUS

[Horde]

Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language M.Fesner

Fasmer, by the way.
Vasmer is a famous Russophobe, one word is German. Regarding tanga-money, official science says that the word is of Turkic origin, but, for example, in "Walking Beyond the Three Seas" by Afanasy Nikitin, where he uses both Russian and Tatar languages, he says rather about one thing, that the Turkic-Tatar language was as for the merchant, as the Russian writes about it and Fomenko, the Russian people of that time were rather Bilingual, which explains most of the inconsistencies in history.

[cdrt]

[Fasmer, by the way. (sorry - wrote in a hurry)

Fasmer famous Russophobe, one word German

Fasmer is German, which means Russophobe. I agree.
Here I found another Russophobe - a cross between a Dane and a Frenchwoman - V.I. Dal is called.
And two more ZionistsRussophobia - Shapiro and Rosenthal

[Setrac]

Every joke has some truth, and so does Dahl.

[Horde]

Quote: cdrt

here I found another Russophobe - a cross between a Dane and a Frenchwoman - V.I. Dahl's name.

I don’t know about Dahl’s account, but Fasmer categorically denied the Russian etymology of civilization words, but lately they have taken it well and send you to the dictionary on the New Chronology website, if you are interested in the etymology of words, it will be interesting.
http://chronologia.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&forum=DCForumID18&con
f = DCConfID1

[Frigate]

Quote: cdrt

Fasmer famous Russophobe, one word German

Fasmer is German, which means Russophobe. I agree.
Here I found another Russophobe - a cross between a Dane and a Frenchwoman - V.I. Dal is called.
And two more Zionist Russophobes - Shapiro and Rosenthal

Of all the dictionary compilers, Vasmer is the most objective and justified, ingenious simply, compared to Dahl, his dictionary is better. I remember whether in Dahl, or from someone else I read the meaning of the word STRUCTURE - it was written from the word Chukchi, I was horrified. And in Fasmer, from the word Shoshu or Chochu, in the Turkic ones it means to frighten, and further this word is Slavicized by Slavic priests into SCREED, that's all

[Yoshkin Kot]

I do not argue, it was considered halfway

[YuDDP]

it was a feud. the Mongol Tatars are their

[BruderV]

Quote: YuDDP

it was a feud. the Mongol Tatars are their

Something I don’t see in the mirror of the Mongol-Tatars, if you see, then you don’t need to generalize to all here. How many Russians were tortured and stolen into slavery during the time of the yoke and after it by the Crimeans, there are many millions. I would be ashamed to write such a thing, at least out of respect for the ancestors, my narrow-minded and blissful.

[YuDDP]

BruderV,
stop reading Soviet textbooks already, read books on the new chronology, you will understand the meaning of the word Tartaria, you are our student
You still help artifacts on the Kulikovo field to search for traditional archaeologists. And they are not there - they are in Kulishki.

[BruderV]

Quote: YuDDP

stop reading Soviet textbooks

I can’t take books that are in the store next to Muldashev’s works about Lemurians, Sirius, Atlanteans and other evil spirits. I don’t believe in paleocontacts and powerful ukrov either.

[Iraclius]

Even at school he plagued his teachers with tricky questions about these notorious Mongol-Tatars. Tatars remained in Russia, and the Mongols left back to Mongolia? Or how?
Nowhere and could not find even the approximate name of the person who coined this term - "Mongol-Tatars". But on the western maps, the name "Tartaria" or "Tataria", as the consolidated name of the territories of Russia, went for a very long time. So draw your own conclusions.
Althoughaaaaaaa ... Okay, I won’t start another srach.
In reality, everything was not the same as in reality (c) (Antoine de Saint-Exupery)

[vladsolo56]

What is most interesting in our history is the Tatar-Mongol yoke, but in Mongolian history this is not, somehow it does not fit)))

[Frigate]

Quote: vladsolo56

What is most interesting in our history is the Tatar-Mongol yoke, but in Mongolian history this is not, somehow it does not fit)))

so the fact is that the modern term Mongol has no historical similarity with how modern Tatars have no historical heredity with those

[cdrt]

In reality, everything was not the same as in reality (c) (Antoine de Saint-Exupery)

Not Exumery - Stanislav Jerzy Lets

[Petrospek]

and what is the difference in principle, what were their names? they were ...

[Setrac]

Big difference. There is an opinion that behind the Mongol-Tatar yoke they hide the crusade of all Catholic Europe against Vedic Russia, the forcible Christianization of Russia with the assassination of all those who disagree, 3/4 of the population was destroyed, which amounts to 9 million out of 12.

[Yoshkin Kot]

n-dya, insanity grows stronger

[Setrac]

Quote: Yoshkin Cat

n-dya, insanity grows stronger

You answer, like all traditional historians, with rudeness, because there are no other arguments.

[na76]

In general, historical facts are correctly reflected in the article, it indicates in full measure that internal strife became the main cause of the collapse of Kievan Rus. There was certainly pressure from the Order, the Swedes and Lithuania, but the bulk of the war took place between the specific principalities, moreover, it continued even after the Mongol-Tatar pogrom. However, speaking of the confrontation between Novgorod and Vladimir Russia, not a word is said about the battle on Lipitsa. Speaking about the tendency of the Novgorodians to the west, the author diplomatically holds back that they were practically the only Russian lands who constantly tried to resist the onslaught of knights in the Baltic states on Estonian lands, the rest only tried to look for allies in Europe, i.e. the statement of facts is one-sided, from the point of view of Vladimir Rus. In addition, speaking in detail about the participation in the contention of the European powers, the role of the Polovtsians, whom the princes invited to participate in internal disassemblies, was mentioned in passing, and they gladly agreed to rob and burn Russian cities. It is truly impossible to save a madman who does not want to live, but tears himself to pieces.

[Yoshkin Kot]

not really yours, the same Novgorodians constantly invited the lower princes with squads for campaigns in the Baltic

[cdrt]

And if you look at Finnish, Estonian and Latvian (well, more precisely, preserved on the territory of Finland, Estonia and Latvia) sources, then there will always be raids by Novgorodians, Pskovs, Lithuanians (including Belarusians and Smolyans).
And, accordingly, they write not about the invasion of the crusaders, but about the constant attempts of the Russians to conquer them, starting from Kievan Rus
Feudal war era.

[Petrospek]

I completely agree with you, the Toda all pulled one blanket over themselves, where it was torn.
Moreover, interestingly, the author claims that Yaroslav decided to collect land, but decided to collect from the most prosperous. here immediately raises the question of the disinterestedness of the prince. Moreover, there were weaker and (most importantly) poor lands nearby, and Novgorod was far away ...

[Nomad]

Quote: Iraclius

Nowhere and could not find even the approximate name of the person who coined this term - "Mongol-Tatars". But on the western maps, the name "Tartary" or "Tataria", as the consolidated name of the territories of Russia, went for a very long time. So draw your conclusions

An interesting interpretation by A. Bushkov in the book "Russia, which did not exist". Such works are classified by official science as folk history, but ... in general, read it yourself. The main idea is that there were no Mongols in Russia, but there was a war for the unification of the Russian principalities, started by Alexander Nevsky's father Yaroslav, continued by his descendants.

Quote: Ostanin

For myself, I concluded that if the "Mongol-Tatars" had not come to Russia, Russia as such would not have become. Western "democratizers" would have been torn to pieces - everything went to this.

It is now going to this, it seems. Therefore, as I understand it, and unite.

[na76]

Quote: Nomad

An interesting interpretation by A. Bushkov in the book "Russia, which did not exist".

And Rezun, who Suvorov is also an interesting writer, probably, but why refer to fairy tales?

[Prometey]

na76
Then give a link to non-fairy tales - is it really Karamzin?

[na76]

Quote: Iraclius

Even at school he plagued his teachers with tricky questions about these notorious Mongol-Tatars. Tatars remained in Russia, and the Mongols left back to Mongolia? Or how?

Tatars in Russia in small numbers appeared only after the reform of Uzbek for the total "homification" of the Golden Horde, and in large numbers generally only under Vasily the Dark, and later, and the available data on their origin says that they were by origin just, basically, it was the Mongols (although there are data on the most well-born), for example, Mamai, whose descendants became Glinsky, and whose maternal descendant was Ivan the Terrible, was from the Mongol clan Kiyat, by the way hostile to the Borjigins in the time of Chinggis, and in general the entire upper caste of the Golden Horde was Mongols, and why were they persistently called Tatars in Russia? Well, it just so happened ... Why are the Russians stubbornly called Slavs, although by the structure of the skull, they are mostly Finno-Ugric?

[Yoshkin Kot]

nonsense about the structure of the skull is not tired? or genetics for you is still a corrupt girl of imperialism?

[BruderV]

Quote: Yoshkin Cat

nonsense about the structure of the skull is not tired? or genetics for you is still the selling girl of imperialism

Recently there was a study of the Russian gene pool by Russian scientists. The closest thing is similarity with Mordovians (these are typical Caucasians with brown hair and blue eyes if cho). Bliiin Well, are you all so dark here? Open the map of ancient Russia. Tribes Merya, Meshchera Chud, is it the Slavs? Count you on the story.

[Iraclius]

You are very smart. Maybe write a new history textbook? I can offer a name. For example, this:
"Ethnogenesis of the Slavs and Finno-Ugrians".
Damn, it feels like a burst of national self-consciousness is happening in Mordovians!
And I will answer you, according to my knowledge of history, at the present time there is no universally recognized academic version of the formation of a Slavic ethnic group.
Put the cola on.

[cdrt]

Recently, a very genetic study was
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297(07)00025-0
Well this is accurate experimental data, there is nothing to discuss.

The main bloods are related to the Slavs of Eastern Europe, the next are the Finno-Ugric peoples, and much less (actually trace amounts) are nomadic peoples.

Two directions of Slavic colonization - from the south, incl. and the settlement of Vladimir-Suzdal and from the north - the ancestors of Novgorod.

A single version does not exist due to the politicization of the issue and, in general, historical science.

Another question is that culturally Great Russians really received a lot from nomadic peoples (Turkic-speaking)

[BruderV]

Quote: Iraclius

Damn, it feels like a burst of national self-consciousness is taking place among Mordovians

And by the way I am Russian, the one who should consider himself a full-fledged Slav. I just look at things more broadly than they write in textbooks. Everything is simple there - some small tribes, which in modern terms are called Finno-Ugrians, lived on the territory of modern European Russia, prayed to stumps, were engaged in gathering, then from the Belarusian forests came from nowhere Slavs who came from nowhere in immeasurable numbers and awesomely advanced cultivated (yes- yes from the forests!), they mastered everything here, absorbed the small natives, set up cities, for some reason called the Vikings to rule, adopted Christianity and only after that the history of statehood and civilization on this earth began, and before that cavemen lived here. But the question is where did the Goths, Burgundians and other "barbarians" from the east attack the Roman Empire then? And by the way, they knew how to fight very well and they broke well with these very Romans. The Romans, who supposedly overtook all their surroundings in development for millennia, and it is known that they came from the Black Sea region, where they came from in the Black Sea region is unknown, teleported probably from somewhere. Such are the cave people who lived on these lands at the beginning of our era. Do you want to believe in the Slavic theory, then what? I prefer to think that I live on a land that is much older than the Slavic conquest of Eastern Europe and that my ancestors lived here many centuries before. What do the Finno-Ugric people call them by their language, or whatever I don't care.

[Yoshkin Kot]

you do not confuse the way of life, the Varangian, and not the Viking, with ethnicity, the Germans do not argue that the north and east of Germany are Slavic lands

[Yoshkin Kot]

link please! read directly opposite data! dreamers tired

[Kail_seven]

Quote: nae76

Why are Russians stubbornly called Slavs, although by the structure of the skull, they are mainly Finno-Ugric?

Dr. Goebels - welcome!

All the same, genetics will be more accurate than measuring skulls.

[Siberian]

but where is it said that r1a1 is a Slavic marker ?????

[cdrt]

http://r1a.org/imgstat/9.pdf как пример. А вообще - вас в гугле забанили?

[predator.3]

Quote: nae76

and in general the entire higher caste of the Golden Horde was the Mongols, and why did the Tatars persistently call them in Russia?

After the end of the European campaign in 1242, only about 5 thousand Mongols remained with Batu, the rest of the Genghisides returned to their possessions, and the main troops were Turkic-speaking tribes and peoples, Polovtsy (Kipchaks), Bulgars, Burtases, braids, Bashkirs, etc. d. and these 5 thousand Mongols were simply assimilated for several decades.

[Prometey]

Quote: nae76

Why are Russians stubbornly called Slavs, although by the structure of the skull, they are mainly Finno-Ugric?

Kopets, well, at least not Neanderthals.

[na76]

Quote: Prometey

Then give a link to non-fairy tales - is it really Karamzin?

Read the chronicles, and not only Russians, but also neighboring states, it’s worth starting with this anyway, I know it’s tense, but without primary sources there will be no normal knowledge of history, you can criticize and analyze purely literary works, such as "The Lay of Igor's Host", who he wants to find. And then there is the analysis and criticism of all this good. By the way, reading Karamzin is probably not worth it, it is better then serious historians of the twentieth century, the point is that Karamzin relied on the same chronicles, but without "criticism", so to speak, that is, without comparison with the sources of neighboring states, and the chronicles themselves lie too often and a lot, you yourself understand why ... And to give a link to a couple of books, after reading which you will become well versed in the history of Russia, it will not work good knowledge requires a lot of time spent and systematization, I've been interested in history for 20-25 years and read everything what I can reach, but I don't consider myself a specialist

[OZZ]

It's a dark story with the "Mongol-Tatars"! There are versions that there was no yoke of anyone! There are a bunch of modern historians who suggest revising history. http://genocid.net/news_content.php?id=268

[na76]

Quote: OZZ

It's a dark story with the "Mongol-Tatars"! There are versions that there was no yoke of anyone! There are a bunch of modern historians who suggest revising history. http://genocid.net/news_content.php?id=268

Yes, damn it, they’re already embarrassed to honestly review the history, who is she, is she a whore, or what?

[Pinochet000]

Quote: nae76

who is she to you, a whore, or what?

Whore of course, under the ruling falls, as a rule. The winners write the story, so it’s also a kind of trophy.

[Iraclius]

Well, I thought so - away we go, darling! One needs only to hear the phrase about Igo, when the Bushkovs, folk histories, Fomenko, Nosovsky and other new chronologies immediately begin.
Personally, I am an adherent of Karamzin's "fairy tales". If only because they are recognized by academic science and are studied in all universities in the world. And for the education of the younger generation, it is much more valuable than the pseudo-creativity of new pseudo-historians. As for all the other obscurantists - well, let them frolic. It's even more fun that way.
All the same, we will never know the truth.

***
Here they wrote about the structure of the skull of the Finno-Ugrians and Slavs. Okay, swallowed. We are not Slavs. Then who are the Bulgarians? Descendants of the Avar Turks? And who are the Serbs? Descendants of the Ottoman Turks, who regularly slaughtered all the Slavs in the Balkans. Maybe the Poles and Czechs are Slavs? Oh yes, I forgot! There, the Germans planted Catholicism with a sword and fire. With all the consequences.
So, that is all nonsense, with skulls.

[stalker]

Quote: Iraclius

Then who are the Bulgarians? Descendants of the Avar Turks?

mixed with the population of the Balkan Peninsula.

[na76]

Quote: Iraclius

All the same, we will never know the truth.

But it’s worth striving for this, isn’t it a colleague?

[Jurkovs]

About the truth. I watched somehow a zoned map of genetic research. So the territory from Veliky Novgorod in the west, Smolensk in the south, Rostov the Great in the north is genetically very homogeneous, much more homogeneous than the area around Kiev, that is, in Kiev region there are much more genetic pollution. If the haplogroup R1a is recognized as Slavs, then the smallest impurities are found precisely in Zalesskaya Rus and V. Novgorod.

[Iraclius]

The truth is somewhere in between. Most likely, the Tatars have nothing to do with Khan Uzbek. Throughout the known history, the Slavs on the border with the Great Steppe were in contact with nomads. First, they were Iranian, later with the Turks. Mixed marriages (a worldwide practice) and the recruitment of Polovtsians into the service by certain appanage princes were not uncommon. In general, the events of feudal fragmentation in Russia after the death of Yaroslav the Wise resemble the period after the collapse of the USSR. Why are brothers not appanage princes? After some time, the development of the center of political gravity begins quite logically. And this is where the ambush begins, because the chroniclers praise each of his own swamps (and this is also understandable and logical!). Moscow, Lithuania, Tver, Suzdal, Vladimir ... In this leapfrog of "centers of power" it is difficult to consider the real events of the time before and during the Yoke. The Bulgarian and Arabic sources are interesting, but for some reason not clear to me they are poorly studied. In addition, in the official, so to speak, lists of the ROC there are such holy appanage princes whose names are generally unknown to official science. It's a dark matter.

[Frigate]

Quote: Iraclius

The truth is somewhere in between. Most likely, the Tatars have nothing to do with Khan Uzbek. Throughout the known history, the Slavs on the border with the Great Steppe were in contact with nomads. First, they were Iranian, later with the Turks. Mixed marriages (a worldwide practice) and the recruitment of Polovtsians into the service by certain appanage princes were not uncommon. In general, the events of feudal fragmentation in Russia after the death of Yaroslav the Wise resemble the period after the collapse of the USSR. Why are brothers not appanage princes? After some time, the development of the center of political gravity begins quite logically. And this is where the ambush begins, because the chroniclers praise each of his own swamps (and this is also understandable and logical!). Moscow, Lithuania, Tver, Suzdal, Vladimir ... In this leapfrog of "centers of power" it is difficult to consider the real events of the time before and during the Yoke. The Bulgarian and Arabic sources are interesting, but for some reason not clear to me they are poorly studied. In addition, in the official, so to speak, lists of the ROC there are such holy appanage princes whose names are generally unknown to official science. It's a dark matter.

And you correctly arouse the interest of readers, although I do not think that everyone will want to doubt their innocence

[Jurkovs]

Some historical sites are now developing an alternative history, which would be, anyhow. In one place in "The Lay of Igor's Regiment" there are arguments that Yaroslav could have put any of his relatives on any reign "for he gathered Rus", that is, under him the Minsk principality and Rostov were finally included. Yaroslav established a "ladder", an archaic form of succession to the throne, characteristic of the ancient ancestral customs of the Slavs, although he had before his eyes not only the forms of succession to the throne in Byzantium and the Ugrian kingdom, but also in purely Slavic lands such as Poland, Czech Republic and Serbia, which had already mastered direct inheritance formula. This was the first divergence between Russia and Europe. In Europe, they fought for power in palaces, and rarely brought matters to a civil war. In Russia, after the death of Yaroslav, "strife" began, in fact, a civil war that did not stop. Moreover, princes did not die in this war (I don’t think Gleb and Boris), but Russian people. An episode from the Teachings of Monomakh is noteworthy. Finally, he overtook Vseslav's exhausted squad in the woods near Minsk, but did not arrest him, did not imprison him, but simply took a "company" (oath), supplied them with supplies and released him. Six months later, Vseslav rebelled again and Monomakh had to burn Minsk, Vseslav was again not touched. If it were not for the "ladder of Yaroslav" in Russia, long before Ivan the Terrible, a strong centralized state would have formed, which could have rebuffed Batu.

[cdrt]

Speaking of ladder.

I'm not sure that it is right to consider it ancient Slavic.
Still, there was the Great Turkic Kaganate, where she was present from the XNUMXth century AD.
Conversely, Khazaria also entered the VTK, while Kiev paid tribute to the Khazars.
Those. By the time of Yaroslav, a ladder as a form of inheritance in Russia had been known for a very long time.
And after Svyatoslav, the former Khazar landspeople actually came into the sphere of influence of Russia.

Yes, and the Slavs still seasoned Nordic Aryans Indo-Europeans. And Indo-Europeans (again inaccurate) usually have a legacy from father to son

[Jurkovs]

Ladder was not among the Polovtsians, nor the Pechenegs. Historians generally claim that the staircase is a purely Slavic phenomenon. In everyday life, it was long preserved among many Slavic peoples.

[na76]

Quote: Iraclius

Here they wrote about the structure of the skull of the Finno-Ugrians and Slavs.

Actually, the Ugrians, like the Balts, are an ancient ancient population of Eastern Europe, and what do you think when the Slavs went from the Elbe to the east, they cut out all along the way like Anglo-Saxons Indians in North America? Do not think of your ancestors so filthy. Finnish tribes coming from the north also did not suffer from such garbage by the way, but if among all the Finno-Ugric peoples that survived to the XNUMXth century, the division into Finnish and Ugric sub-ethnic groups remained, then this is not observed among Russians - in anthropological terms it is a very homogeneous people, i.e. . There was a complete assimilation of Slavs and Ugrians, and I did not say that Russians were not Slavs, just most of the main Slavic genetic characters are recessive, and Ugric ones are dominant, and these peoples are generally related and European.

[Iraclius]

Why are Russians stubbornly called Slavs, although by the structure of the skull, they are mainly Finno-Ugric?

And how else can this question be interpreted? Only so that the author of the statement is sure that the Russians are not Slavs. If you misunderstood, then I'm sorry.
You idealize our ancestors a bit (if you are Russian, of course). The Finno-Ugric peoples were far from as peaceful as is customary to portray. Take the same Hungarians. Therefore, clashes arose in any case, and partial assimilation took place after the Slavs were consolidated in the region. And, by the way, the Finno-Ugrians are just as aliens here as we are. They only came here before. So, the Baltic group migrated from South Siberia to 8 thousand BC
Russians are anthropologically heterogeneous - compare the inhabitants of the south and north, the Don, the Stavropol region and, say, the Vologda region. Marvel at the difference.
And the last - the Finno-Ugrians - are not Indo-Europeans. By language they belong to the Ural family.

[knn54]

Andrei, I agree. The Hungarians (in their own words) are Ugro-Türks. On the territory of the Ugorshchyna there was a Slavic principality of Rusyns, close to the Slovaks. During the mass migration of the Slavs to the northeast (mid-12th century), assimilation with the Finno-Ugrians took place: Murom, all ....). The southern branch is + Turks (black klobuki.berendei, Bulgars ..). Relatively "pure" Slavs (I don't remember the author of the monograph) are Serbs (not even Montenegrins).

[cdrt]

but from the mixture of Slavs and Finno-Ugric - (Hungarians) truly beautiful children were born. A very common type is white skin, strong straight blue-black hair and dark blue eyes. In Budapest, a fairly common type of appearance. Women look fantastic

[marshes]

Quote: cdrt

but from a mixture of Slavs and Finno-Ugrians - (Hungarians)

Mazhar (Magyar) is a Kazakh tribe of the Argyn tribe. It is a descendant of the Magyars (Hungarians) who wandered in the territory of Northern Kazakhstan. Their ancestors, the Magyars (or Hungarians), migrated to the West at the beginning of the 2006st millennium BC. e. Remaining on the territory of Kazakhstan, the Magyars assimilated with the Kipchaks and other tribes that later formed the Kazakh people. The memory of people has preserved some of the ancient traditions of the Hungarian people, and in the lexicon of the tribe there are words of Finno-Ugric origin. Hungarian scientists came to the conclusion that majors are direct descendants of their ancestors common with Hungarians. In the work of Andras Biro in 1 and others. [45] haplotypes of 39 representatives of majars were collected and analyzed, 2009 of which were carriers of haplogroup G, and a conclusion was made about the likely genetic contacts with Hungarians in the past. In 2, Hungarian geneticists came to the conclusion that the majars are descendants of the Magyars, common with the Hungarians of the ancient Uralic ethnos [XNUMX].
Venres in Astana.

[Iraclius]

Bolot, thanks for the information. I did not know this fact.
But I know the statement of a Hungarian. He said something like the following: "All Hungarians are divided into smart ones and those who remained in Altai."

[marshes]

Quote: Iraclius

"All Hungarians are divided into smart ones and those who remained in Altai."

Now the smart ones are asking for money from those who stayed in Altai.

[cdrt]

From repeated communication with the Hungarians. ON THE RIGHTS OF A JOKE !!!.

Actually, Hungarians as a people in my opinion - according to inferiority complex nasty self-importance in Eastern Europe can only compete with the Poles. both those and former imperial loser nations empire

All around them are invaders !!!
For they still took away from the Hungarians everything that the Hungarians had overworked conquered in due time
Worst of all, only in their opinion only three people in the world:
- Mordovians (as they consider it, those Magyars who have not gone to Pannonia) - well, if not in a party, it means dumb
- Russians - these are to blame for the fact that in 1848 and in 1945 the Hungarians were beaten
- SUDDENLY, Americans - these are to blame for the fact that for them in the 1956 World Warskin did not arrange

Since the Mordvinians, Russians, for them on one face, amicably at home, they hate Russians and Americans

[romb]

Back in the mid-90s, one of my relatives was in Hungary. She was surprised with what interest the Hungarians (there was a full house) listened to the story of Kazakhstan. Before leaving, they asked her, if possible, to bring all sorts of trinkets (accessories) with traditional Kazakh ornament. In short, she unwittingly turned out to be one of those people who introduced fashion to the Türkic "zoomorphic" style in costume jewelry in Hungary.

[cdrt]

ABOUT! Interesting.
Actually, the Magyars themselves are the descendants of the Huns (as far as I know - mixtures of alien Turks-Huns and local Finno-Ugric peoples) the Atillians consider - and it seems not in vain

[marshes]

Quote: cdrt

ABOUT! Interesting.

Video frames from the kurultai (congress) of the peoples of Turan in Hungary, held in August 2012.

[romb]

They also, at least, consider themselves descendants of the last Kipchak (Polovtsian) Khan Kotyan. So they get a double connection with the nomads of the Eurasian steppe.

[predator.3]

Magyar was located on the territory of modern Bashkiria

[Goga]

nae76 - Colleague, in confirmation of your words, not so long ago a fairly massive genetic study was carried out for a genetic "impurity" in Russian blood - the result somewhat puzzled the researchers - contrary to the long-standing opinion of a serious relationship with the Mongols (Tatars), it turned out that Mongolian genes are much less common than the Finno-Ugric, the data are quite objective, no "social order" is visible.

[Yoshkin Kot]

n-dya, but how are the Poles? same with acne? messed up? not tired of repeating stupid mantras? the Russian ethnos is one of the most homogeneous in Europe, all the wild fabrications about crossbreeding with the Finno-Ugric peoples and Tatars, nothing more than a fabrication similar in a very fragmented way, for example, in the Pomerania.

[Siberian]

Quote: Yoshkin Cat

Russian ethnic group is one of the most homogeneous in Europe

how long have you been outside? The Slavic skull shape is clearly observed only in 30% of the population. At least in Siberia, the situation is like this ... It is unlikely that in the rest of Russia the situation is more "prosperous"

[Jurkovs]

Quote: nae76

most of the main Slavic genetic traits are recessive, and Ugric - dominant

What genetic features are you talking about? Take a closer look at the territorial distribution of haplogroup R1a. Do not lead people into temptation.

[Goldmitro]

<<< Western civilization led an active offensive, involving the wreckage of a single Old Russian state into its orbit. Gradually, out of the boyars and merchants, a "fifth column" was created, a "German" ("Hungarian", "Polish") party, ready to betray the interests of the entire Russian people for the sake of personal and (or) corporate interests. Individual princes who were ready to become "kings" also fell under the influence of the West. Rome acted with the hands of Sweden, German knights-crusaders, Poland and Hungary >>>
A very interesting article, which resonates with modern events. So many centuries have passed, and the attitude of Western civilization towards Russia does not change: attempts to subjugate it do not stop, but for this it is necessary to destroy its unity, destabilize the situation inside the country, organize strife in society, and create a 5th column.
In general, with the stubbornness of a woodpecker, the West continues a policy aimed at subjugating Russia and, frankly, it has already managed to create a 5th column.

[na76]

Quote: Iraclius

All known history, the Slavs on the border with the Great Steppe came into contact with nomads. First Iranian-speaking, later with the Turks.

The problem is that not all peoples who spoke the Turkic dialect then and now are related to the Turkic by origin, at one time the Turkic dialect became "universal" for the steppe zone of Eurasia, some of the Turkic-speaking peoples are Mongoloid, the other are pure Iranian Europeids, by the way, mainly of the type, hence even more confusion.

Quote: Goldmitro

<<< Western civilization led an active offensive, involving the wreckage of a single Old Russian state into its orbit. Gradually, out of the boyars and merchants, a "fifth column" was created, a "German" ("Hungarian", "Polish") party, ready to betray the interests of the entire Russian people for the sake of personal and (or) corporate interests. Individual princes who were ready to become "kings" also fell under the influence of the West. Rome acted with the hands of Sweden, German knights-crusaders, Poland and Hungary >>>
A very interesting article, which resonates with modern events. So many centuries have passed, and the attitude of Western civilization towards Russia does not change: attempts to subjugate it do not stop, but for this it is necessary to destroy its unity, destabilize the situation inside the country, organize strife in society, and create a 5th column.
In general, with the stubbornness of a woodpecker, the West continues a policy aimed at subjugating Russia and, frankly, it has already managed to create a 5th column.

Sorry, of course, but you have a stamp on the stamp and the stamp drives, you don’t need to be so zombied

[Iraclius]

na76, I wanted to say that in the classical interpretation the relations of settled Slavs and nomadic Turks are considered somewhat one-sidedly.
I can carefully suggest that by the end of the period of feudal fragmentation, some large military-political unions of mixed Turkic-Slavic composition had formed. A large group that dominated the East triumphed over the same, but possessing the European part of a single cultural and political space. If someone wants to object that supposedly there were no Slavs in other regions, besides the traditional ones, I can recall Tmutarakan, whose traces are lost after 1094, which symbolizes. Since it was in this year that the Grand Duke of Kiev Svyatopolk II Izyaslavich, having no more strength to wage war, made peace with the Polovtsy and married the daughter of Tugorkan, Khan of Polovtsian. That's it, colleagues. And why invent any alternative versions when everything is very clear from the official ones. I can even hint even more carefully that the attitude towards fratricidal wars is extremely negative everywhere.
This is purely a matter of thought. Personally, the official historical version, in principle, suits me.

[na76]

Quote: Iraclius

And the last - the Finno-Ugrians - are not Indo-Europeans. By language they belong to the Ural family.

The language, by the way, is not an argument, why I already wrote above, people tend to change it sometimes, Ugrians are European by race, and African Americans in the USA will you also be referred to Indo-Europeans on the basis that they speak English? The Finns and the Ugrians are generally 2 different groups of peoples, and they differ so much that complete assimilation did not happen in the Finno-Ugric tribes, for example, the Mari are divided into mountain and meadow, the rest are about the same

In general, this is a disease of modern ethnography: two approaches to determining the origin of peoples - linguistic and anthropological (now it is also combined with a genetic one). I, as you understand, adhere to the second, as more adequate, reason to explain why I think it makes no sense

Quote: Iraclius

Personally, the official historical version, in principle, suits me.

me, by the way,% by 90, which are true, you yourself understand the most reliable way to hide the truth is not to lie for good, but to keep silent some facts and just a little lie

[Iraclius]

Quote: nae76

Language by the way is not an argument

Another argument, especially if there are no other arguments left.
I wrote only that the Finno-Ugric peoples are not Indo-Europeans, but Urals. I did not write anything about their appearance.
Are you on the street in the center of Moscow immediately snatching Finn and Hungarian from the crowd purely on anthropological grounds? I think no. In general, genetic and anthropological methods are always a little cunning, because in any case the traces of a long neighborly residence of peoples will be much stronger than short-term dominion of one over the other by historical standards.
This, you know, is like that old-old joke: "Professor - to students:" There is a true statement, there is a false one, and also, gentlemen, students are the science of statistics! "
According to your logic, it turns out that some pre-Slavs came, taught the wild Samoyeds the language and quickly dumped them into the Bahamas. And the enlightened Samoyeds began to be called "Slavs". So, what?

[Kail_seven]

In principle, I agree with everything, only one question: How can genes dissemble? They are either there or they are not.

[Iraclius]

It is not genes that are cunning, but the interpretation of their presence or absence in the genome of an ethnos.
We do not introduce into the wise analyzer the question: “Tell me, my dear, who did the Slavs come from?” And he immediately, fervently winking at the bulbs, will give us the whole pedigree.
In fact, there is so much room for creative expression that mom - do not worry.

[cdrt]

The dominance and recessiveness of the signs are notions that appear statistically. Those. if as a result of sexual intercourse a child is born from parents with different signs (for example, mom is blue-eyed, and dad is brown-eyed and the neighbor is Armenian, then for 10 such cases, usually one or two blue-eyed children will be born two Jews three Armeniansand the rest will have a different eye color

[BruderV]

Quote: Iraclius

According to your logic, it turns out that some pre-Slavs came, taught the wild Samoyeds the language and quickly dumped them into the Bahamas. And the enlightened Samoyeds began to be called "Slavs". So, what?

Everything is simpler. Slovenes, who founded Novgorod, sailed from the southern Baltic, it was the only Slavic colony in northern Russia. Gradually, they began to establish contacts with the Finno-Finns who surrounded them, who then did not know that they were Finno-Finns. Then apparently they began to try to subjugate them and realizing that it didn’t work out very well, they invited the Varangians. This ksati is the most logical explanation of the invitation to rule a hostile tribe. The classic version is nonsense. And after the creation of Russia and unification with southern Kievan Rus, the main population of northern Russia - the Finno-Ugric peoples - began the centuries-old process of assimilation with the ruling Slavic elite. This was also facilitated by the baptism of the Gentiles. The process of assimilation of natives continues in our days in Mordovia, Karelia, Komi, etc. He walks naturally and no one notices him. It's just that people are gradually forgetting the language of their ancestors and are already starting to consider themselves root Russian.

[cdrt]

And what a confusion in the ethnography of the peoples of the Steppe!
Indeed, there are indeed descendants of Indo-Europeans (Iranian-speaking), and Turks, and Mongolian peoples.
And taking into account the steppe practice, in which the losers often took the name of the winner - in general, it turns out to be a nightmare

[Frigate]

Quote: cdrt

And what a confusion in the ethnography of the peoples of the Steppe!
Indeed, there are indeed descendants of Indo-Europeans (Iranian-speaking), and Turks, and Mongolian peoples.
And taking into account the steppe practice, in which the losers often took the name of the winner - in general, it turns out to be a nightmare

And you are really an adequate person, I respect.

[Setrac]

But the official history doesn’t suit me, they invented some kind of mythical migration of peoples, the Finns live where they always lived, in Finland, the Ugrians - in Hungary, this is the prose of life, and the official history is a propaganda tool, it (the official history) can anyone something to arrange, someone is not, but it is not the truth.

[cdrt]

And what exactly does not suit you in life in official history?
For brevity, say, for example, 10 points on 1 line each (I'm serious).

[Setrac]

The first question - logistics - how did the rulers supply their army in the old days when there were no railways?
The second question - chronicles - why did all chronicles reach us only in the form of copies?
The third question - architecture - why are ancient buildings worth millennia (supposedly), and modern about a hundred years?
The fourth question is common sense - do you really think that such a powerful tool as history is not involved in the information war?

[Misantrop]

Quote: Setrac

The third question - architecture - why are ancient buildings worth millennia (supposedly), and modern about a hundred years?

Come to the Crimea. Turn from the Simferopol-Feodosiya road towards Planersky. From the highway you can see the temple, which is older than the city (and Theodosius celebrated 2500 years in 1975). And this is far from the only old building. There, a little earlier, on the right side of the road immediately after Topolevka, the Armenian kinassa was about the same age. In the same Feodosia on Quarantine there is another temple. Little one is not grandiose. But then the First-Called (the same one) served in it at one time. And the city of Khersones (which is frankly not young itself) was built on the foundations of an even more ancient city. Now he, by the way, is almost 2/3 below sea level. Google WHEN the last time the Black Sea level rose significantly

[Setrac]

You do not know what you are talking about, you do not know how old these structures are, you just believe the official history, not understanding how historians got their results. The soil, even rocks, it is not a monolith, it is plastic, the soils under the foundation sag, the foundation cracks, after 400-500 years you will not even understand that "this" pile of stones was any kind of building.
Try to find out on what foundation the Egyptian pyramids are. Why 150-200 years ago pyramids were like new, and nowadays they are so old, over 150 years.

[Misantrop]

Quote: Setrac

You don’t know what you’re talking about, you don’t know how old these buildings are, just believe official history, not understanding how historians got their results.

Well, you seem to understand. Tell the nuclear scientist about radiocarbon analysis, maybe I'll learn something new And the foundations crack when the builders' hands are crooked and grow from where the tail comes from.

Quote: Setrac

Why 150-200 years ago pyramids were like new, and nowadays they are so old, over 150 years.

Have you heard about acid rains and their causes? So active reagents are not only in the form of rain

[Setrac]

Quote: Misantrop

Have you heard about acid rains and their causes? So active reagents are not only in the form of rain

You just attract by the ears, no one counted the effect of these acid rain.
As a nuclear physicist, you should understand that the percentage of the radioactive carbon isotope is relatively normal - NOT CONSTANT.

[Rus2012]

Quote: Deniska999

Good review article.

... she is one-sided, basically interpreting the story written by the Germans for the Russian tsars from Peter 1 ...
Many modern alternative historians (not official ones) write about completely different things ...

For starters - http://newsland.com/news/detail/id/1119847/
The manipulation of words and several decades of indoctrination led to the fact that we all believed in the “Mongol-Tatar yoke”, and in the “primitiveness of the Slavs”, and in many other things, which turned out to be a banal and cheap lie ...

Monument to Khan Batu, installed in Turkey in the city of Sogut. Literal translation of the tablet: Altinordi Devleti - Warlord (Gauleiter - modern)

Many members of the Vedic Culture magazine editorial board are personally acquainted with the inhabitants of Mongolia, who were surprised to learn about their alleged 300-year domination of Russia. Of course, this news filled the Mongols with a sense of national pride, but at the same time they asked: “And who is Genghis Khan?”

We live on the land of our glorious ancestors, whose life history and glorious deeds, alas, do not know ...
So, only wonderful artifacts that inadvertently come to light and do not fit into official history speak of this ...

[Iraclius]

God, you are mine!
Rus2012, my advice to you - do not litter yourself and others with such a disgrace! Reading stopped after three seconds after starting:

Adapting runic images to modern perception

The author of the article is clearly under the substances.
Zadornov got here too? He, poor fellow, is already not happy with his pseudo-philological theories.

[cumastra1]

something in this Batu is little from eastern people.

[predator.3]

Quote: cumastra1

something in this Batu is little from eastern people.

Well, yes Batu himself posed for the sculptor, after 700 years!

[Yoshkin Kot]

hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee

[Setrac]

Quote: Yoshkin Cat

hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee

Dear, YOU have all the comments as substantive, floods of all countries unite.

[Siberian]

Quote: Rus2012

Monument to Khan Batu, installed in Turkey in the city of Sogut. Literal translation of the tablet: Altinordi Devleti - Warlord (Gauleiter - modern)

Have you seen the monuments to Lenin in Kazakhstan? There Lenin is pretty Mongoloid

[na76]

Quote: Iraclius

Another argument, especially if there are no other arguments left.
I wrote only that the Finno-Ugric peoples are not Indo-Europeans, but Urals. I did not write anything about their appearance.
Are you on the street in the center of Moscow immediately snatching Finn and Hungarian from the crowd purely on anthropological grounds? I think no. In general, genetic and anthropological methods are always a little cunning, because in any case the traces of a long neighborly residence of peoples will be much stronger than short-term dominion of one over the other by historical standards.
This, you know, is like that old-old joke: "Professor - to students:" There is a true statement, there is a false one, and also, gentlemen, students are the science of statistics! "
According to your logic, it turns out that some pre-Slavs came, taught the wild Samoyeds the language and quickly dumped them into the Bahamas. And the enlightened Samoyeds began to be called "Slavs". So, what?

Well, why simplify it, we are kind of serious people, not some kind of shkololo
I’m generally an engineer by training - equipment for the production of gunpowder and explosives, but after graduation I also studied in graduate school, specializing in thermodynamics, which is essentially statistical physics, and as a specialist I can tell you that the statistical methods are the most accurate, you can only cheat with the selection of initial data, then the final result will be different from the truth, nothing else, so the problem is not in statistics but in statistics, like this somehow

[Iraclius]

I am also a military engineer, but a specialist in rocket fuel and fuel and lubricants. And while studying in postgraduate studies (military graduate school) he was engaged in statistical methods closely. Let's not flirt statistics before each other.
Speaking the word "statistics" I meant "the influence of the subjective factor" and you understood me perfectly.

[Volkhov]

Here the Germans under Hitler also conquered Europe, but for some reason they didn’t leave Berlin and Germany, on the contrary they dragged everything there, and the Tatars abandoned their Siberian region and fled to China, to Central Asia, and to the Volga region.
This does not happen under ordinary conditions - only in catastrophes, when life in the region becomes harmful (infertility, mutations) - the Russians also left the Danube, the Hittites, two rivers (there was no one left in the Sinai).
That is, the Tatars had no options regardless of whether other tribes quarreled or were friends. It was necessary to agree and show hospitality, no one is safe from such troubles, and there was enough space.
Those catastrophes left their marks in the Yakut language - Amga and Abaga, elements of the comet explosion both on the ground and in time - fragments of a downed comet still fall in the Irkutsk region (the former capital).

[na76]

Quote: Iraclius

Are you on the street in the center of Moscow immediately snatching Finn and Hungarian from the crowd purely on anthropological grounds?

And by the way, after seeing the national team of Russia and Finland on hockey on TV, (well, for juniors, for example, where you personally do not know anyone in person) standing in a row before the match can you determine where who even if they change their form? I can do it for sure, well, I don’t know, maybe my eye is trained, I just grew up on the border of Tatarstan, Udmurtia and the Kirov region, then I often visited Russian Mari, Tatar Udmurt and Mari very easily, automatically
And no offense to Muscovites will be said when I was in the capital for the last time there, I often didn’t look out for the Finns but the natives of the Caucasus and Central Asia ...

[Iraclius]

Yes, hardly distinguished.
The point is that in any case, to say that the Russians are not Slavs, but Turks or Finno-Ugric is extremely incorrect.
I repeat once again that over the millennia of cohabitation, Turks, Slavs and Finno-Ugrians inevitably left their mark on each other's culture and genotype.
Now the differences are manifested mainly exclusively at the language level. In order to give ground for thought, I’ll say one more thing. Languages, like tribes, were in constant competition with each other. Why did the Finno-Ugrians assimilate by the Slavs, but the Slavs themselves, mainly conquered by force? Offhand, from 1867 to 1918. there is an increase in the percentage of knowledge of the Hungarian language on the territory of Austria-Hungary, many Slavic peoples, such as Slovaks, begin to speak Hungarian. Then everything rolls in the opposite direction. Why? In addition to purely political reasons, there are philological ones - Hungarian is extremely difficult to study, and the phonemic composition has no analogues in Slavic languages. He is completely alien to the Slavs. Therefore, at the linguistic level, today the differences are much stronger than genetic or anthropological.
To look now for some evidence of the falsification of the official version gives rich ground for chauvinism and the growth of nationalist sentiments. And we remember very well how it could end. The term "Aryans" itself was discredited in historical scholarship for a long time.

[Sirocco]

The article is good. But there is nothing faith, it’s no secret, after all, that the whole story corresponded and is being rewritten. What to believe then? Who will explain how this is possible during the Tataromongol invasion, the church flourished, and the domes were golden, like that.

[cdrt]

The answer is some good book on corporate studies (corporate criticism).
And then any bullshit read a story - quickly learn to separate lies / fiction

[Rus2012]

Quote: Volkhov

and the Tatars abandoned their Siberian region and some fled to China, some to Central Asia, some to the Volga region.

and who are the Tatars finally?
At the same time - the Sumerians, Sarmatians, Suvars?

To know only one thing - we don’t know our story ...

More to the seed -



cool cartoon
revealing a lot of things (or willing)
also many attempts to reveal the meaning ...

One of the versions -
The most important thing in any film is the beginning and the end. And what connects them between them and explains how what happened in the beginning turned into what happened in the end. At the beginning we see a goat, at the end of the sun. Between them is the process of transforming the world from a goat to the sun.
It’s a strange idea to put a character at the top of the movie that will never appear in it again. The authors of the film claim that anyone who watches this video can be a goat. Say, a goat is in captivity of illusions, zombied, etc. Actually, the essence of the cartoon consists in ridding humanity of dying illusory structures. Everything is crumbling decisively: states, massoneria, ideologies, mosques, temples, twin towers. And a little man tormented by a reptiloid zomboyaschik with a demon inside gains freedom. Here, as many noted, an indication of the well-known film “The Matrix”, which has long been loved by conspiracy theorists. In this film, by the way, there is an episode with a Neo passport, which has an expiration date - 11.09.2001. This Nemo got rid of his addiction, which is what the creators of the cartoon call for. And they also want to charge people to cool actions, make them come to terms with the great loss of life, not to impede the destruction of the world. For if you destroy it, then such grace will come that ... And actually what? What do we see?
On the boat of Anubis, from the cold demonic and crumbling world, a certain citizen comes out with burning eyes and legs, who is in a trance and completely indifferent to everything that happens. He flew from far away. Fish love him, around him are the lotuses that Obama is so afraid of. He scared the demon in the zombie man and the old woman Europe. This citizen awakens from the Sun, and a crown of barbed wire disappears from his brow. He looks at the Sun, and it completes the pyramids, which seem to be eternal. Call it whatever you like, but it is not Christ. This, apparently, is Heliophantus. In the end, it was written so that no one would think anything superfluous. Just don’t say that this is the name of the office, I won’t believe you. And who exactly is Heliophant? It seems that the high priest of the cult of the Sun. History is erased, all religions are destroyed, should something be in their place? The neopagan cult of sun worshipers and their leader Antichrist.
All this is nice of course, but why give such a name to the cartoon? They would call him "Sunny Jesus." The author’s interpretation says that the cartoon “I pet goat” got its name from the book “My pet goat”, which was read by George W. Bush the youngest when the planes crashed into the WTC. However, it seems to me that there is also an indication of the film “The men who stare at goats”, which has already been noticed by the Octopus. There, as in The Matrix, there is an episode with the passport of the protagonist, in which the expiration date is 11.09.2001.
Cui prodest? That is the question we must now ask ourselves.

[cdrt]

Rus2012

From the goat to the sun - chic
When is the news now zomboyaschiku You watch TV, sometimes it seems that everywhere in the world the reverse process is

[Frigate]

Quote: cdrt

From the goat to the sun - chic
When you watch the news on a zombie TV, sometimes it seems that the reverse process is going on everywhere in the world

And with a sense of humor you do not have to. He laughed heartily, it pleases when there are such normal and adequate that everyone speaks as is. Maybe you are the editor of Lurkomorye ???

[cdrt]

No Unfortunately
In general, Lurk began to read a month ago probably when he read that they wanted to close it
No matter how I read, I laugh in my voice

[Frigate]

Quote: cdrt

No Unfortunately
In general, Lurk began to read a month ago probably when he read that they wanted to close it
No matter how I read, I laugh in my voice

According to information, the site is better, it’s noticeable how everyone criticizes everyone everywhere, that is, someone is tired of looking at all these proceedings, so he decided to collect the texts of the best Internet users. I also found out a month ago

[Volkhov]

Cool cartoon, but not yet moving - holding a network.

[sealord]

Cool cartoon

I join! The only pity is that there are endless interpretations. However, the general direction - "puppet vector" - is correct enough.

[Rrrrr]

Nothing changes) money rules

[Rus2012]

Quote: Sirocco

But there is nothing faith, it’s no secret, after all, that the whole story corresponded and is being rewritten. What to believe then? Who will explain how this is possible during the Tataromongol invasion, the church flourished, and the domes were golden, like that.

and think for yourself ...
and here's something else.
For example, Igo ended (according to the classics written by the Germans, which they study at all universities, they say) ... For some reason, the former invaders, Tatars with their mosques, remained in Moscow And not only in Moscow time, Kolomna, Kasimov ...
Maybe they were not enemies?
And somewhere to read what was something ... Here the problems begin. For there are no widely known sources. Redone-rewritten does not count.
The Toko are being burnt by the Chinese, there are writers in Hieroglyphs. And this is only because the envoys of the Vatican could not read, rewrite ...

And more thoughts about the Tatars in Moscow ...
Two World War II passed - where do you find the remaining French and Germans in Russia?

[Setrac]

Add, where is the movement of peoples in connection with mortal danger? Given the percentage of Mongols in Genghis Khan’s army, should the Germans conquer the whole galaxy? Where are the armies made up of conquered peoples?

[na76]

Quote: Kail_Seven

All the same, genetics will be more accurate than measuring skulls.

And genetics unequivocally says that modern Russians are a mixture of Slavs and Ugro-Finns, and there is a little less Slavic blood in them than in neighboring Ukrainians, Poles and Belarusians

[cdrt]

Genetics disagree with you ... The main haplogroups are purely Slavic, then already Finno-Ugric, Germanic and Tatar.

[Iraclius]

Yes, as much as you can already ... Okay, here are the research data:
Slavs living in the north of Russia characterized by a relatively high proportion of the haplogroup N1c1, characteristic of the Finno-Finns (at a very low concentration of haplogroups Q and C, typical of the Mongols of East Asia.
Where is less Slavic blood?
I’ll also add that the Western Slavs have many Celtic (!!!) markers, and the Balkan Slavs even have Berber markers !!! Dare, derive the genealogy of the Serbs from the Berbers!

[cdrt]

Western Slavs have many Celtic (!!!) markers

Well, what's the problem? Who were your Boys if not Celts (hence Bohemia)? Actually and what were the cultures of central, southeast and western Europe, for example, at the level of 150g. BC. - if not Celtic in the serious part.
New people come kills drives assimilates part of the preceding. And if you look closely at those peoples who inhabited the same Balkans before the supposedly Achaean or Hittite wave of migration of the Indo-Europeans (approximately the XNUMXnd millennium BC), there are noticeable manifestations), then you will find peoples there, including kinship with the Berbers.

[stalker]

Almost all of Europe in ancient times was Celtic.

[Rus2012]

Quote: Rrrrr

Nothing changes) money rules

... or their guides
Not disdaining the same as they steal someone else's gold deposited ...
Reptilians, what can you take from them ....

Quote: cdrt

Genetics disagree with you ... The main haplogroups are purely Slavic, then already Finno-Ugric, Germanic and Tatar

... and what conclusion follows from this?

[na76]

Quote: cdrt

The main haplogroups are purely Slavic,

young man, you do not confuse anything there, the presence of a conditionally Slavic haplogroup does not mean that a person is a "pure" Slav, it only means the presence of corresponding ancestors on both lines, and I wonder what Hitler would say if he was told that his allies Italians have basically Middle Eastern origin ...

[cdrt]

The presence / absence of haplogroups speaks only about the genetics of the ancestors. No more, but no less.
The percentage ratio of different groups in the sample of representatives of the people can give approximate information on the percentage ratio of representatives of the peoples (well, absolutely not the peoples, but the genetic groups, sometimes conditionally correlated with the peoples) that made up the ethnic group.
In other words, the presence of haplogroups, for example, Turkic, will indicate that the ancestors also included Turks. The absence of haplogroups, for example, characteristic of the Dravidian peoples, will indicate that in the ancestors of the ethnic group there were no significant Dravidians.
Something like this.

[cdrt]

What would Hitler say if he were told that his allies, the Italians are mostly of Middle Eastern origin ...


Yes, for him, genetics could tear pattern give food for thought
Although ... it does not prevent the Nazis from all over the world to continue to believe in all nonsense into your ideas about purity of race.
Lack of cognitive dissonance double-mindedness is still a powerful thing

[na76]

Quote: Iraclius

The Slavs living in the north of Russia are distinguished by a relatively high proportion of the haplogroup N1c1, characteristic of the Finno-Finns (at a very low concentration of haplogroups Q and C, typical of the Mongols of East Asia.

N1c1 is a haplogroup characteristic of Finns and Balts, but for the Ugrians - this is a question. Do you know that the Hungarians have less than 2% and you doubt their Ugric origin?
Unfortunately, there are still no data comparing the haplogroups of the Finnish and Ugric subethnoses of the Finno-Ugric peoples, but it would be extremely interesting

for example, a picture of the Chuvash, if N is Finnish roots, then what are Ugric?

[cdrt]

It’s definitely difficult to talk about Tatars as a people. They themselves ethnically divide at least 3 parts of themselves (I heard from them and more, but three more often):
1. The descendants of the Bulgars - there is a friend: a thin, slender, red-haired blue-eyed blonde, with delicate facial features, most of all resembles an Estonian
2. The descendants of the Baltic Tatars who returned to the Wolf (not my words, they call themselves that) - eyes are more slanting, red hair, blond, ashen, proportional structure, face narrow, but wider than in type 1
3. The descendants of the Türks (again, they themselves call it that) are black-haired, dark-eyed, strong, stocky, slanting eyes, the corresponding structure of the face.

[Frigate]

Quote: cdrt

It’s definitely difficult to talk about Tatars as a people. They themselves ethnically divide at least 3 parts of themselves (I heard from them and more, but three more often):
1. The descendants of the Bulgars - there is a friend: a thin, slender, red-haired blue-eyed blonde, with delicate facial features, most of all resembles an Estonian
2. The descendants of the Baltic Tatars who returned to the Wolf (not my words, they call themselves that) - eyes are more slanting, red hair, blond, ashen, proportional structure, face narrow, but wider than in type 1
3. The descendants of the Türks (again, they themselves call it that) are black-haired, dark-eyed, strong, stocky, slanting eyes, the corresponding structure of the face.

The Kazakhs have a proverb: "scratch a Tatar, you will find a Russian" In no case do I want to offend this people, there are friends, the thought came to the topic

[marshes]

Karolis Bučinskis (lit. Karolis Bučinskis) or Charles Dennis Buchinsky Charles Bronson) - American film actor, a popular performer of courageous roles in action films.
Born November 3, 1921 in the mining village of Ehrenfeld (Pennsylvania) in a poor family of emigrants from Lithuania. He was the eleventh of fifteen children in a mining family. The ancestors of the actor on the paternal side were sticky - Polish-Lithuanian Tatars [1].

[Yoshkin Kot]

they didn’t come up, but actually it’s sorry

[figvamforever]

Quote: nae76

Yes, damn it, they’re already embarrassed to honestly review the history, who is she, is she a whore, or what?

Dear comrade, there are reasons to overlook. Good reasons.
The problem with the official version of the story is that it is not confirmed by archaeological excavations. There are no graves of the Mongols. No Mongolian money. Those who pass off as Mongolians have never been heard in Mongoli. There are not even Mongol arrows. Imagine finding Neanderthals 40000 years ago. And the Mongols cannot find 700 years ago.

[Yoshkin Kot]

um. Do you know that iron was expensive? Yes, and there are tips, do not lie

[cdrt]

Imagine finding Neanderthals 40000 years ago. And the Mongols cannot find 700 years ago.


I can not help but continue this series of finds from different times ...
And 700 years ago, no one saw the Neanderthals at all !!!!
And the authorities are hiding ...

[Skavron]

Using simple mathematical calculations, it can be established that all people on earth are brothers)))

[sun scorpion]

Was there Igo? Question. And it's not easy at all. I advise you to read to broaden your horizons Penzev K.A. "Russian Khan Batu".
After the publication of Gumilyov’s works, the most serious study was not limited to theoretical calculations. He puts forward his own, very original historical version of the well-known events of the mid-XNUMXth century. One can relate to this theory in different ways, but it is worth noting that the author confirms it with numerous historical facts, documents and logical conclusions.

[ikrut]

Yeah ... Thanks guys. I read a lot of interesting things. And about history and about genetics. I can’t even insert a couple of words in essence, because I sincerely realize that it’s not in the subject. Well, as usual, the discussion did not come to anything. It's a pity.
How is it sung in an old children's song? "Here, b ..., a riddle for children, which of them, two, is a Jew?" (from)
But for some reason I recalled the thought from the ancient Indian Vedic scriptures:
"A person who identifies himself with the body ... considers the products of this body to be his relatives, and the land where he was born worthy of worship; he goes to places of pilgrimage only in order to bathe in the sacred waters, and not for the sake of communication with people, possessing spiritual knowledge. Such a person is no better than a donkey or a cow "(c)
Taking it to my address, I think what are they talking about, eh?

[figvamforever]

Quote: Yoshkin Cat

um. Do you know that iron was expensive? Yes, and there are tips, do not lie

And were the bones also in price? Did you send all the bones back to Mongolia?
Definitely Mongolian tips were not found. They found those that could be attributed to the Mongol with a big stretch.
If you have other information, share.

[Nomad]

Quote: nae76

And Rezun, who Suvorov is also an interesting writer, probably, but why refer to fairy tales?

How do you know where the tales are and where the truth is? Do you seriously think that official historical science never lies, does not dissemble, does not write, does not make a mistake, after all? Your categoricalness reminds me of a Chinese wisdom: "The self-confidence of the ignorant. The confidence of the knower. The uncertainty of the knower." And Suvorov read almost everything with great interest. The main idea, of course, is a big question, but nevertheless a lot of interesting things can be learned for general development.

Quote: SunScorpion

I advise you to read to broaden your horizons Penzev K.A. "Russian Khan Batu"

Judging by the title, the book echoes the version of Bushkov, which some people here, without reading, wrote down to storytellers on the move.