The problem of the "Mongol" invasion of Russia. Part of 4

185
The problem of the "Mongol" invasion of Russia. Part of 4 The traditional presentation of the "Tatar-Mongol" invasion is a lie. Moreover, this myth is very beneficial geopolitical opponents of Russia. The question is to restore genuine stories. Researchers in this matter went in several ways. The first attempt to give a different explanation of the events of the 13 century is the so-called. "Eurasianism" G. Vernadsky, L. Gumilyov and others. The historians of this trend retain the traditional factual basis of the Mongol invasion, but carry out a complete ideological revision, where the minuses become pluses.

In the traditional version of the "Tatars" - a mixture of terminators with the SS, who on their unpretentious horses captured a large part of Eurasia, destroying everything in its path, leaving burning ruins from flourishing civilizations and states. From the point of view of the "Eurasians", the "Tatar-Mongols" (their origin is not questioned) were generally friendly to Russia and were with her as part of the Golden Horde in a state of idyllic "symbiosis". There are generally sound facts about the positive influence of the government of Genghis Khan and the first rulers behind him on the vast Asian expanses. In particular, merchants could easily travel great distances without fear of robbers, they were destroyed; a well-organized postal service was created. Northeastern Russia, with the support of Batu, held out in the fight against the western “dogs-knights”.



In general, the Eurasian version is useful in that it dealt a strong blow to the "armor" of the classic history written by the Germans and Westerners for Russia. She showed the deception of the stereotype about the eternal hostility of the “forest” and “steppe”, the incompatibility of the Slavic world with the cultures of the steppe Eurasia. The Westernizers attributed the Slavic world to Europe, but it was subjected to harmful “distortions” by the “steppe”, like the “totalitarianism” of the “Mongolian” rulers. It should be noted that by separating the “forest” and the “steppe” the researchers dealt another strong blow to the true history of Russia-Russia: they excluded many pages from Russian history, for example, with Azov-Black Sea Russia, which in turn was the heir of civilization Sarmatia-Scythia (Secrets of Russian history: Azov-Black Sea Russia and Varangian Russia. Part of 1., Part 2.).

The interpretation of the “Tatar-Mongolian yoke”, which was proposed by the authors of the theory of radical revision of history, “new chronology” - A.T. Fomenko, G.V. Nosovsky and other authors, gained considerable popularity. It must be said that the authors of the “new chronology” used the earlier ideas of the Russian scientist N. A. Morozov. "Fomenkovtsy" revised the traditional chronology in the direction of its reduction, and believe that there is a system of historical counterparts, when some events are repeated in another time and another region. "New chronology" put a lot of noise in the historical and near-historical world, the subversors, in turn, wrote a whole bunch of exposing works.

But, in my opinion, this is not the main thing. The main thing is that the Fomenkovists in their writings published a large number of traces of the presence of Russians in Europe and throughout Eurasia. Although according to the “classic” version of history, the Eastern Slavs (Russians) climbed out of the marshes and forests only somewhere in the period of the 5-6 centuries. (others give an even later date - 7-8 centuries), and have no relation to the "true story", which was in Europe and Asia.

True, having found numerous traces of the Russians' presence in Europe, Fomenko and Nosovsky made a strange conclusion: the Russians, together with the Cossacks and the Turks during the reign of Ivan III, conquered Europe and ruled it for a long time. Europe was part of the Russian Empire. Then, gradually, the Russians were ousted from Europe, and their traces were tried to be destroyed, so that there was no doubt about the greatness of European civilization.

Here you can agree with the last conclusion: the Vatican, the late Masonic orders and lodges really did everything to destroy the traces of the Slavs, the Rus in Europe. But this could not be done completely, because the Russians were not short-term invaders of Europe, as it seems to the supporters of the “new chronology”. There was no conquest of Europe, the Rus were the autochthonous (indigenous) population of Europe. This confirms most of the toponymy in Europe (the name of rivers, lakes, localities, mountains, cities, settlements, etc.). Since ancient times, the Rus have inhabited the expanses of the Balkans, modern Poland, Hungary, Austria, Germany, Northern Italy, and Scandinavia. The process of their assimilation, Christianization, and crowding out from Europe began approximately in the middle of 1, th. er It was the Slavorian tribes that crushed Rome, which was completely rotten (Germanic ”tribes that are counted among the Germans, have nothing to do with them, for example, the“ Germans ”- the vandals are the Venetian Slavs). But the flag of "Roman contagion" was picked up by West Christian Rome, a protracted war began, which lasted a thousand years (and continues to our day, since the "Russian question" has not yet been resolved). Slavs ousted to the east. A significant part of it was destroyed or assimilated, turning into the “Germans”, it was included in the composition of the new Roman and German-Scandinavian nationalities. So, the whole Slavic civilization in the center of Europe - Western (Varyazhskaya) Russia was destroyed. You can read about this in L. Prozorov’s work “Varangian Rus: Slavic Atlantis”. Other Slavs were vaccinated with a virus of Catholicism, making enemies of their brothers. In particular, in this way, the Poles were turned into stubborn enemies of Russia.

The supporters of the “new chronology” did not leave a stone on the stone or the traditional myth of the “Tatar-Mongols”. According to Fomenko, there were no “Tatar-Mongols” at all; by medieval sources they mean “Russians”. The Golden Horde and Russia were part of the great power "Great Tartary", which was predominantly populated by Russians. The invasion of troops by Baty Fomenko and Nosovsky are considered internal wars within one state: between Russians and Tatars of Russia on the one hand, and Russians, Cossacks and Horde Tatars, on the other. The "Great Tartary" (Big Russia) was split into two fronts, into two rival dynasties, the western and the eastern. The eastern Russian "Horde" was the army that took stubborn cities by storm, broke down the resistance of the proud princes and demanded "tithe" (a tax on the maintenance of the troops).

The positivity of the “new chronology” is that it shows the absence of “Mongols from Mongolia” in the expanses of Russia. It proves the fact that the true history of Russia is, in many ways, circumcised, distorted in favor of the West.

The third version is offered by supporters of the idea that Russia as a state and geopolitical reality always existed, and within the borders of Northern Eurasia and since ancient times it was inhabited by the Ruses whom the sources know under different names - Aryans, Scythians, Tauroskifs, Sarmatians, Roksolans, Varangians-Veneds “Moguls” (“powerful”), etc. For example, in the work of N. I. Vasilyeva, Yu. D. Petukhov “Russian Scythia” it is noted that in the territory of Northern Eurasia - from the Pacific Ocean and the borders of China to the Carpathians and Black sea ​​anthropological, cultural (spiritual and material I am a culture), often political unity can be traced from the times of the Neolithic to the Bronze Age (the time of the Proto-Indo-Europeans, Aryans) to the Middle Ages.

According to Yu. D. Petukhov, the author of a number of fundamental studies on the history of the Rus, vast forest-steppe spaces from the Northern Black Sea region through the Southern Urals and to Southern Siberia, modern Mongolia, which were given by the Western historians to the “Mongol-Tatars” in the 12-14 centuries in fact belonged to the so-called. "Skifosibirskomu world." The Europoids mastered huge spaces from the Carpathians to the Pacific before the wave of Aryan-Indo-Europeans left during the 2 millennium BC. er to Iran and India. The memory of tall, fair-haired and light-eyed warriors has been preserved both in China and in neighboring regions. The military elite, nobles of Transbaikalia, Khakassia and Mongolia were Europoids-Indo-Europeans. It is from here that the legend of the Russian-breed and the blue-eyed (green-eyed) Genghis Khan-Temuchin originated.

It was these heirs of the great northern civilization - Scythia, that were the only real military force that could conquer China, Central Asia (which had previously been within their sphere of influence), the Caucasus, Russia and other regions. Later they were dissolved among the Mongoloids and the Turks, giving a passionate impulse to the Turks, but they retained their memory as fair-haired and light-eyed “giants” (for the less physically developed Mongoloids they were giants, like the Russians of Kiev, Chernihiv and Novgorod for Arab travelers) .

Some of these Scythians came to Russia. Anthropologically and genetically, these late Scythians were the same Ruses as the Russians living in Ryazan, Vladimir or Kiev. Outwardly, they were distinguished by the manner of dressing - “the Scythosiberian animal style,” their own dialect of the Russian language, and the fact that they were largely pagans. Therefore, the chroniclers and called them "nasty", ie, pagans. That is the key to the phenomenon that the three-century “Mongolian” yoke did not make the slightest anthropological changes in the indigenous population of Russia. Therefore, the Scythian Russes of the Horde (the word "horde" is a distorted Russian word "clan", "glad", in the German language is preserved as "order, ordnung") quickly found a common language with the majority of Russian princes, were related, framed. It is doubtful that in the same way Rusichs would begin to build relationships with absolute strangers-Mongoloids.

The Horde and the Rus fought together on the Western Front: in 1241, Batu led troops into Western Europe, and his army included Russians from North-Eastern and Southern Russia. The troops of Baidar and Ordu fought in Poland, captured Lublin, Zavikhost, Sandomierz, the Malopolsky militia were defeated near Tursk, the Krakow and Sandomir regiments tried to close the route to Krakow, but were defeated in March 18 March and Shkalko 19 respectively. Krakow was captured. Poland was completely conquered, Boleslav V fled to Hungary. Interestingly, the Knights Templar helped the Tatars in this campaign, they acted as guides, translators and even military commanders. On April 9, in the battle of Legnica, the soldiers of Batu defeated the combined Polish-German forces. At this time, Batu's troops defeated the Hungarians of the Ugrians. 11 April at p. Shaio Russian-Tatar troops defeated the army of Bela IV, the Hungarian king fled to the Austrians. Under the rule of the "Mongols" was the whole Danube part of Hungary. At the same time, Batu entered into a strategic alliance with the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire Frederick II Hohenstaufen against the Guelphs and Rome (as early as 1239, the emperor was excommunicated by Pope Gregory IX from the church).

In 1242, the Batu army continued its offensive. The Mongols crossed the Danube and besieged Buda, Fehervar, Esztergom, Nitra, Bratislava and a number of other Hungarian cities. Corps Kadana ravaged Croatia, took Zagreb. Detachments of Batu entered Serbia, Bosnia, Bulgaria. In the future it was planned to invade Italy and France. However, the campaign did not take place, for political reasons, Batu had to turn the troops.

The actions of Alexander Yaroslavich — his victories over the Swedes and German knights — look completely random in this light. His fraternity with Sartak, the eldest son of Batu. There is information that the Horde troops helped Alexander in his fight with the enemies on the north-western borders of Russia.

This version immediately puts in place many pieces of jigsaw puzzles that do not find the answer in the traditional version. Siberian Scythians had a many thousand years developed spiritual and material culture, a production base, military traditions (similar to the later Cossacks) and could form an army capable of crushing China and reach the Adriatic Sea. The invasion of the Scythian-Siberian pagan russes sucked into its mighty wave of pagan-turkish, pagan-polovtsy and alan. Later, the Siberian Rus created the Great “Mongolian” empire, which began to degenerate and degrade only after the growing Islamization, which was facilitated by the influx of a significant number of Arabs into the Golden (White) Horde. Islamization has become the main prerequisite for the death of a mighty empire. It collapsed into many fragments, among which Moscow Russia began to rise, which would restore the empire. Although back in the time of Mamaia, the pagan beliefs were widespread in the Golden Horde. Thus, in “The Tale and the Mamai Massacre”, a literary monument of the 15 century, gods are worshiped by the “Tatars”: Perun, Salavat, Rekly, Horse and Mohammed. Thus, simple "Tatars" worshiped Perun and Hors. After the battle on Kulikovo field, Moscow gradually comes to the fore, as the capital of the empire. In about a century and a half, the new center will be able to restore the main core of the empire. Thus, in the 16-19 centuries, the Russian state did not conquer foreign lands, but returned territories that had been part of northern civilization from time immemorial.

In this light, it is not at all surprising that, before the 16-17 centuries, and sometimes up to the 18 century, most of Eurasia in Europe was called Great Scythia (Sarmatia) or “Great Tartaria”. The sources of that time identified the ancient Scythians-Sarmatians and the contemporary Russian Slavs, considering that the whole forest-steppe Eurasia, as before, was inhabited by one people. So not only authors who used literary sources, but also travelers believed. The Roman humanist of the 15 century, Julius Lat, traveled to Scythia, visited Poland, on the Dnieper, at the mouth of the Don, and described the life and customs of the Scythians. The traveler spoke about the "Scythian" honey and Braga, how the "Scythians" sitting at the oak tables, proclaim toasts in honor of the guests, wrote down a few words (turned out to be Slavic). He said that "Scythia" extends to the borders of India, where the "Khan of the Asian Scythians" rules.

Arabian (Egyptian) historian of the middle of the 14 of the century, Al-Omari, reporting on “the lands of Siberia and Chulymanskiy”, reports a strong situation and that there are beautiful, remarkably folded people who have white face and blue eyes. In China, under the rule of the Yuan dynasty (1260-1360-s) in the capital Khanbalik (Beijing), the guard, recruited from Yasov, Alans and Russians, was of great importance. Some of the names of “Alanian” commanders are also known - Nikolay, Ilie-Bagatur, Yuvashi, Arselan, Kurdji (George), Dmitry. The Slavic pagan name was worn by the renowned commander "The Eyed" Bayan. In 1330, the emperor Wen-tszun (Kubilai's great-grandson) created a Russian unit in 10 of thousands of warriors - in translation from Chinese to Russian, its name sounds like “Always true Russian Guard”. Given the fact that by the middle of the 14 century, the former united “Mongolian” empire had collapsed, it is hard to imagine that thousands of Russian soldiers came from China from Vladimir and Moscow Russia. Most likely they were from closer places. So, Chinese Wang Hoi and Yu Tan-Jia, who lived in the 14 century, wrote: “Russians are descendants of the ancient Usun people”. And the Usuns are Siberian Scythians, who were called Issedons in ancient Europe (they occupied the territories of the Southern Urals and Siberia).

Before the intervention from outside, the national historical tradition directly elevated the origin of the Russian people to the Alans-Sarmatians. The author of the “Scythian history” A. Lyzlov identified the Sarmats-Savromats with the Russians. In the History of V.N. Tatishchev and M. Lomonosov, it is reported that the Russians came from the Sarmatian Roksalans on the one hand, and from the Vendians-Wends on the other.

Summing up this article it must be said that almost the entire history of Western Europe is a myth. Winners, i.e., the West’s masters simply ordered the story for themselves, tried to clean up or hide unnecessary pages. But we do not need their myth, you can not build your power on other people's tales. We must write such a history of Russia-Russia, which will educate sages, warriors and creators, and not losers and "eternal slaves" who are under the yoke of the Khazars, the "Mongols", the "Reds". It is quite reasonable and expedient to support the version of the "Mongol-Tatar" invasion, which will be beneficial and useful to Russia and its peoples, and not other people's inventions.
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  1. RAMBO
    -8
    27 February 2013 07: 33
    Good fantasy
    1. Earthman
      0
      27 February 2013 08: 23
      Quote: RAMBO
      Good fantasy

      The author is Alexander Samsonov, it would not hurt you to engage in serious literature and participate in excavation expeditions, than to engage in verbiage and idle talk. You, on the basis of a vision of the history of the world of the writings and annals of the West, that is, necessarily colonial and oppressive, assume that the Golden Horde was supposed to arrange genocide for Russian princes, the genocide of all local religions. The steppe empires, according to the steppe mentality that is now lost, had full freedom of thought, was a kind of neutralism in relation to a foreign religion and opinion, of course, did not leave tons of papers, but for the most part left an oral folk chronicler, various tragedies, joktau, similar to the style of spoken language.
      There was no total genocide of the conquered countries, there was no destruction of their religions and statehood, and after the Golden Horde destroyed itself in a civil war, the author considered that this was not a myth either. And since these oral speeches have not been preserved much, then having learned that the written records of the remains of the Golden Horde are few, the author suggested that all this is fiction and myth, that is, the author compared the current power of Russia (the army) and suggested that even then they were absolutely like that , such authors believe that two centuries ago, people spoke the same language as they do now. And the fact that in the struggle for power in the Principality of Moscow then all the stories that existed and were interpreted under the authority of the Clergy (Christian and Islamic priests and mullahs) later were unknown to the author.
      The author represents the past through the eyes of the present, and not through the eyes of the past, this is how in America, alien Europeans once said and justified the world that they were Native Americans.
      1. Che
        Che
        +12
        27 February 2013 14: 20
        Earthman,
        The history of Russia is much older than you can imagine. Samsonov’s respect, trying to open everyone’s eyes to our history. Not only Fomenko and Nosovsky, before them a whole galaxy of our minds spoke about the ambiguity of the ancient history of Russia (Russia). The Western gaze still dominates the minds of people. Are the Germans right? I think no. Article +++
      2. +2
        28 February 2013 00: 33
        I think not soon we will find out the truth as history is often associated with politics.
    2. Yoshkin Kot
      -3
      27 February 2013 08: 41
      n-dya, and where is Legolas ??? and so for fantasy 5!
      1. avt
        +2
        27 February 2013 13: 32
        Earthman ----] ,, Steppe empires according to the steppe mentality, which is now lost, possessed full freedom in thought, there was a certain neutralism in relation to a foreign religion and opinion, of course, they did not leave a ton of papers, but they left mostly oral folk chronicle folkler, various tragedies, zhoktau, in a similar style of oral speech. [/ quote] "
        No papers were left. That's for sure, well, why should passionate students learn to read and write. laughing For them, the conquered peoples wrote the annals and the steppe heroes put a finger and asked to add, it’s written correctly from my words! laughing The mentality however. And then the whole empire went to the last sea and disintegrated. Probably they caught a goldfish and demanded that she make them the owner of the sea. And she reptile redhead them some sort of wooden object broken vtyuhalya. There is still hope! Here you will know the Cyrillic alphabet, the mentality will return.
        1. +3
          27 February 2013 14: 24
          avt
          Hmm, after that there should be a witty comment by Eshkin the cat)
    3. +4
      28 February 2013 05: 45
      Small actual stroke).
      There is such a republic - Tuva (Tuva). In it - the city of Kyzyl. In it is a museum (such as a local history). It has a special room that is closed for free access and photographing. Earlier, magnificent exhibits from modern excavations (2000-2004) of one mound (Arzhan-2) were collected in it. It was believed that she was buried there, including the central pair (1500-3500 years) - the ancestors of the Tuvans. A lot of gold and iron blades. It turned out - the Slavs)).
      Most of the exhibits, by the way, were taken to Germany.
      The following is paradoxical: the posthumous chain mail of the pair consists of each of several thousand gold absolutely identical, I would say stamped, images. According to the conclusions of German archaeologists, on whose grants excavations were made, these are feline. What I and my companions (two years ago) saw was a man - mammoths, a woman - cubs of a mammoth.
      Because it was forbidden to take pictures, although we were with representatives of the regional Department of Internal Affairs, upon arrival we climbed into the Internet. I did not find any photos of "cats".
      And now - there is no mention of the exposition).
      And you are the 15-17th century! Now the story is being rewritten!

      http://www.geocaching.su/?pn=101&cid=11368 - вот здесь кое-что, но изображений "кошачьих" (прим. 8000 штук) там нет!
      And here at least they talk about "plaques"! http://www.newsru.com/cinema/02nov2008/tuva.html
      1. Beck
        -1
        28 February 2013 15: 19
        Quote: ctepx
        It was believed that she was buried there, including the central pair (1500-3500 years) - the ancestors of the Tuvans. A lot of gold and iron blades. It turned out - the Slavs)).


        I’ll shake it sideways. 1500 - 3500 years is how? BC or our era. If our era and take the middle it will come out 2 years ago. So, if 500 years ago and even more so if 2500-1500 years ago BC, then burials are not related to the Slavs.

        In those days, all the steppes to the East from the Volga, Kazakhstan, Central Asia, Southern Siberia (flowing around Altai) to the upper Yenisei, Western Mongolia (flowing around Altai is now from the south), Xinjian were inhabited by Indo-Europeans (Arians) of Andronovo culture. But they are not Slavs, but Indo-Europeans of the Iranian language group. Here are their burials and discovered in Tuva. The same burial was discovered in the Issyk burial mound near Almaty. And not so expensive, but the same type in all areas that I have listed above.

        This population of the Andronovo culture in the upper Yenisei began to assimilate in the 2nd century BC by the Türkic-speaking tribes of the steppes of present Mongolia, the Huns. And maybe earlier. Later, all Andronovites of southern Siberia and Kazakhstan were assimilated by the Turks. Assimilation in different places was different. Where more, where less. But since the Turks were politically dominated, the language of these cross-tribes became Turkic. Therefore, red-haired Turks and with gray eyes appeared. For example, Polovtsy. They lived next to Tuva, in the Baraba steppes of the northern foothills of Altai. Then they moved to Northern Kazakhstan and further to the Black Sea steppes.

        This anthropological mix does not give rest to the fantasies of Fomenkovtsy and Nosovsky. Which ascribe these Trk-Andronov hybrids to the Slavs.
        1. Marek Rozny
          -1
          28 February 2013 17: 04
          and for these science fiction writers, all Indo-Europeans in the territory of the present RF are recognized by the Slavs. so simple and beautiful.
          1. +2
            28 February 2013 21: 48
            Marek rozny,
            No need to distort the facts, the Türks mixed up like all other ethnic groups creating nations. In your opinion, the Turks rule the world laughing What worries you so much about the Turk question?
            1. Marek Rozny
              -1
              1 March 2013 00: 14
              Sandov, am I distorting it? These science fiction writers in Russia ranked in a crowd all the Indo-Iranian nomads as the Russian nation. Settled Scythians mingled with the Slavs in what is now Ukraine. But the Scythian nomads did not mix with the Slavs; they joined the Turkic nomads.
              1. +1
                1 March 2013 05: 07
                By the way, according to Fomenko, the Slavs (First Slavs) are those who praised Christ wink .
                And, accordingly, they could be even nomads, even foresters.
                It was only later, armed with the teachings of Christ, they conquered the entire visible world and their Empire was split from the inside by the split of religion. So I understood Fomenko No. .
                THEORY is beautiful and has the right to be along with others.
        2. +2
          28 February 2013 21: 43
          Beck,
          Fomenko very correctly covered the topic. As for the Turks, there is no need for fanaticism. Mixed tribes. The existence of Great Tartary is quite real. By the way, Fomenko did not say that the Slavs ruled everywhere.
          1. Beck
            +1
            1 March 2013 10: 34
            Quote: Sandov
            Fomenko very correctly covered the topic. As for the Turks, there is no need for fanaticism. Mixed tribes. The existence of Great Tartary is quite real. By the way, Fomenko did not say that the Slavs ruled everywhere.


            Sandov, I respect your opinion, like any person. But like any person, I can consider your opinion erroneous. Just like you can count my opinion. It should be so. Otherwise, there would be no truth, since it is born in a dispute.

            But as far as I know, the ancestral home of the Slavs who stood out from the Indo-European community is the territory of modern Poland. From there, the Slavs moved to the west - Luzhchans, to the south - Balkan Slavs, to the east - Rusichs.
        3. 0
          1 March 2013 04: 53
          As far as I am familiar with the subject, 1500-3500 is the age of the find.
          They were called Slavs (I think) because of the similarity of their DNA with those who are now called Slavs and, conversely, their dissimilarities with those who live there now Yes .
          What was really there and when it is reliable, I think no one will say. And everything else is theories, i.e. - ideas. There can be many, they must be different and butt with each other crying .
          Personally, I am a supporter of the theory of disasters and I suppose (I have not yet found arguments disproving this for myself) that the age of the Himalayas, Baikal as natural objects does not exceed one thousand years hi .
          If someone actively and categorically prohibits the spread of any THEORY, including destroys and / or falsifies primary sources - that means someone needs it.
          In order to get the right answer, you need to ask the right question.
        4. 0
          21 November 2016 20: 10
          Kazakhs are not reading you here for 70 years as a people with their own statehood, but much more))))))))))))))
  2. Horde
    +9
    27 February 2013 08: 09
    a good article in which century Samsonov Alexander drew attention to the fact that along with the decrepit traditional history of TI, a new historical science lives and develops- a NEW CHRONOLOGY of HH in which there is no place for SILENCE of FACTS and which enriched historical knowledge with NEW METHODS AND NEW APPROACHES to history.
    1. Yoshkin Kot
      -7
      27 February 2013 08: 43
      shit, another fantasy artist, who will you be? orc or gnome? wassat
      1. +8
        27 February 2013 08: 50
        Yoshkin Cat
        Your level 80 troll is definitely far away. Instead of criticizing the type, it would be better if you wrote a monograph on the history of your beloved Mongols - it would have been more useful instead of verbiage.
        1. +4
          27 February 2013 15: 31
          Prometey, --- yes no he's a level 100 orc from WOWlaughing
      2. Horde
        +3
        27 February 2013 21: 25
        Quote: Yoshkin Cat
        shit, another fantasy artist, who will you be? orc or gnome?

        Do you know who the cat is? You're just a trash commentator. This is just your place that you occupy under the sun, i.e. on our site. Never, nothing serious, only disgusting and vile. Such as you just need to drive from places where decent people gather.
  3. +11
    27 February 2013 08: 17
    Now the fans of Genghisides will run forward again and will prove the failure of the further development of Russia without the Mongol invasion.
    For me, the truth is somewhere in between. And in fact, this or that point of view can be taken either on faith, or on the basis of a logical or historical comparison, for the traces of that era are irretrievably lost.
    And so the author correctly posed the question - why did the once-occurred event not have the right to an alternative consideration and discussion? And why should the interpretation of this event remain forever canonical?
    1. Yoshkin Kot
      -5
      27 February 2013 08: 43
      don’t carry bullshit, don’t think of getting along, you don’t need to refute it laughing
    2. avt
      +6
      27 February 2013 10: 25
      Quote: Prometey
      Now the fans of Genghisides will run forward again and will prove the failure of the further development of Russia without the Mongol invasion.

      So the soul warms, you can understand. We won in the nineties how many people in the nobles broke, how many idiots were looking for whether some great-grandfather Prince Golitsinsky had knocked him down. And here is such happiness - to be a descendant of the shakers of the universe and the walker of the last sea. So they are sculpting like a Mongol a monument to Genghis, well, their statues in an equestrian system. God be with them, whatever the child would amuse, if only he would not hang himself. Let the monuments be built if the cities do not want to.
      1. Marek Rozny
        +3
        27 February 2013 14: 18
        I have a mother from the Usun family. I must tell her that she is Russian, otherwise she doesn’t know laughing All my life I considered myself a Kazakh from the Senior Zhuz)))) And I accordingly get it - a half-breed, half Russian)))))))))))))
        1. CEO
          CEO
          +2
          28 February 2013 10: 10
          Why are you going to mislead your mother. She is Kazakh and you are Kazakh. So it makes no sense to juggle. History is an interesting product. For example, not so long ago there was a story with "Nord-Ost", in which Mr. Nemtsov turned out to be a complete freak. And there are witnesses to that - Kabzon, Hakomada. But now Nemtsov speaks and proves to everyone that he is a hero. And the sukkah is not who can convict him of lying, neither Kabzon nor Hakomada. Here is such a pancake breed.
      2. see
        see
        0
        6 March 2013 11: 28
        Genghis Khan = Caesar Khan = Gaius Julius Caesar = George Yuri Dolgoruky (his
        hands extended to Egypt) = St. George = St. George the Victorious is
        all one man ... his brother recognized him as St. George after death
        John Caliph = Ivan Kalita = Yaroslav Vsevolodovich = Khan father = Khan Batya =
        Khan Batuy (he possessed both secular and spiritual power). Genghis Khan received a mortal wound in a battle on the river Vozha ... with neighbors .. He had a difficult character ... Princes Yaroslav the Wise often complained about him (another pseudonym for Ivan Kalita ..) .... And who knows - not
        whether they helped him die after being wounded - if you recall that Guy Julius
        Caesar died of a dagger ....
    3. see
      see
      +2
      6 March 2013 11: 08
      1. Mongolia as a state (inner China and Outer Russia) was formed at the beginning of the 19th century (the times of Baron Ungern, Ulaanbaatar ..).
      Before unification, the Halkov and Airat tribes lived on this territory ...
      Before the formation of the state, Mongolia generally, even in principle, to talk about the Mongol nation is idiocy, and even more so in the 12th century ... On the territory
      of external Mongolia in the 12th century there were about 12 thousand people in total ... Among other things - there was no other way to Europe, like a caravan road,
      which only camels could overpower due to lack of water ... The Mongol conquest is an invention of Russian historians ....
  4. +4
    27 February 2013 08: 45
    L.N. Gumelev was engaged in ethnography. Mentioning him in the same context with Fomenko is equivalent to mentioning Kurchatov with Petrik.
    1. Earthman
      0
      27 February 2013 08: 52
      Quote: bunta
      L.N. Gumelev was engaged in ethnography.

      Gumilyov’s most important merit was that he attracted interest in those days to the unexplored history of the Türkic peoples, but the fact that he said that those Türks and present Türks were different peoples was rutted or written under the strong ideological oppression of Soviet history
      1. +5
        27 February 2013 09: 32
        Nothing like this. Using the example of "Turkic" peoples, he only showed the work of ethnogenesis - his main theory. He could (and showed in other works) show this theory in other ethnic groups. I emphasize ethnic groups, not "peoples". But he worked on expeditions in those places, so the topic was closer to him. That's all.

        And he experienced "Ideological" oppression because of his father. Having publicly stood up for whom, he ended up in the camps.
      2. avt
        +7
        27 February 2013 11: 51
        Quote: Earthman
        Gumilyov’s most important merit was that he attracted interest in those days to the unexplored history of the Türkic peoples, but the fact that he said that those Türks and present Türks were different peoples was rutted or written under the strong ideological oppression of Soviet history

        Nooo, it won't work, the dough for the "Holocaust" of the Turkic peoples from the title nation of the USSR will not be able to raise. laughing As well as leading Eurasianism, and Erdogan will not steer Nazarbayev over pan-Turkism. Here Hungarians seem to have decided to be Turks and not Ugrians, well, for loot or what kind of oil loan, the Elbasy will be called not only the main Turkish pope of Rome. And for good money, and mom.
  5. +21
    27 February 2013 09: 00
    The article and sane minuses are put by "real scientists - historians" who have devices in their sheds (and do not gather dust) capable, like in a fairy tale, to transfer them to the past or at least to look there with at least one eye.
    In the sheds there are apparatuses, and in the underground lie the imperishable manuscripts of chroniclers, with the horrors of the Mongol-Tatar yoke and the behests of their Mongol ancestors about feats of arms in raids ... they (the ancestors of the Mongol-Chinese) with their "valor" (read members) were able to bless the darkness of the concubines taken from the steamed peoples, which in turn led to the assimilation of these peoples into the Chinese Mongols ... After all, the concubines were obliged to give birth to millions of Mongol armies for them. ..

    Subsequently, for only a few decades, the Mongol brothers narrowed their borders and died from an epidemic of hypertension that does not stop for a dozen, or even hundreds of years, because of the unceasing pomp / pride of the greatness of the great warriors for their recent past ...

    And most importantly, they left behind on 1/6 of the land a large number of people, more and more European in appearance, but without the inherited Mongolian gene.

    Rzhunemagu. As in a joke - mutation, genes ... "Mutat" needs to be washed more often, your Negro woman gave birth - they called Gena ...
    1. Marek Rozny
      -3
      27 February 2013 14: 29
      But I look at the western and southern Ukrainians - Mongolian-cheekbones, dark-haired and interfering with their native language with several thousand Turkisms, and I think the Slavs were originally like "Tatarva"? And Fyodor Bondarchuk just needs to give a crooked saber in one hand, and a piece of boiled horse meat in the other hand))))
      1. +3
        27 February 2013 15: 09
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        But Fedor Bondarchuk is not enough just to give a crooked saber in one hand, and a piece of boiled horse meat in the other hand))))

        Huh ha ha ...
        What is Fedor there?
        Here you look at yourself in the mirror, and even on Monday morning, you immediately have bad thoughts in your head: - if our Slavs begin to clean the streets from Gaster, I need to insert blue (!) Color lenses or wear a mask and constantly swear loudly at native and only pure Russian? Whatever their beguiled ...
        And with my wife, Armenians and guests from Central Asia often try to speak their gibberish language, mistaking it for a countrywoman ...
        Well, the wife is okay, without modesty - Shaherizad and only, no less! What should I do?
        And you say Fedor ... Just a joke.
      2. Horde
        +2
        27 February 2013 19: 20
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        But Fedor Bondarchuk is not enough just to give a crooked saber in one hand, and a piece of boiled horse meat in the other hand))))


        Fedya cannot be pulled by a Cossack in any way, with the exception of the SHINKAREM in Sich, to solder the Cossacks — this is his FAMILY profession.

        Fyodor Bondarchuk is the son of Sergei Bondarchuk, with prozhidyu and Irina Skobtseva - Jews. So what about the "southern Ukrainians" laughing you, as always wrong!
        1. wax
          +1
          28 February 2013 00: 41
          I don't know what Irina Skobtseva is like as a Jew, but as a woman she was a very pretty "Miss Charm".
        2. Marek Rozny
          +2
          28 February 2013 11: 29
          oh, these ubiquitous Semites! what the tricks have come to, even in the face look like Asians laughing incredible "perfidy"!
      3. see
        see
        +1
        6 March 2013 11: 35
        Volga Tatars - Tatars "christened" Ulyanov-Lenin ... There was a Bulgar
        The kingdom .. and not the Tatar .... Tatar - equestrian warrior - Cossack ...
  6. +8
    27 February 2013 09: 19
    In all this, one thing pleases.
    Since we are actively discussing all this, it means that we are not indifferent people.
    So something else is burning in the shower. In heart.
    And not just pizza and cola left.
    ...
    As for .... inconsistencies and, so beloved by some fantasy, - well, lan, let it be everyone's personal business.
    In the end, this is a matter of faith.
    Who likes pop, who popovskaya daughter.
    ...
    There was only one thing that scratched me in the article - "..The main thing isthat the "Fomenkovites" in their writings published a large number of traces of the presence of Russians in Europe and throughout Eurasia. .. "
    This is, in my opinion, in the NH - NOT MOST IMPORTANT. There and without them - researchers - give way.
    As well as historical buildings.
    And the MAIN THING - that, the duration of the story, as we now know it - is SHORTLY reduced in time.
    It was then ... and there is .... a completely different alignment.
    1. +6
      27 February 2013 09: 46
      Quote: Igarr
      And the MAIN THING - that, the duration of the story, as we now know it - is SHORTLY reduced in time.

      But Igor, you’re right. The main thing in Fomenko’s research is the direction. He is not God and his version of the assumption, although it receives some confirmation, as well as the classic version of the story, which is also essentially an assumption. But the direction for shortening was chosen in my opinion correctly .If we want to know the truth, historians need to be superior to politics, ideology and research without bias, despite the crushing authorities.
      1. +7
        27 February 2013 10: 13
        Quote: baltika-18
        Fomenko is a direction

        Fomenko is even a phenomenon. Seriously, he stirred up what his followers call traditional history. I think that now many historians take into account to some extent the views of Fomenko. Causes a smile when the boys who do not know history in any form, hang labels and assessments for the masters. In the 90s and a little further, I knew by heart all the currents of Fomenkov's thought in history. However, later, when in his reconstructions he agreed on "Tatars = Cathars", Cathars = Masons, I somehow stopped understanding him.
        PS. And the world is small. In the late eighties (and later) he played volleyball with my friend and even passed through him his blue book with an integral to me for feedback.
        1. Marek Rozny
          +5
          27 February 2013 14: 46
          In 99 I met with another dreamer - Murad Aji. Oh, how he stirred up the Turks in those years, angrily denouncing the Russians and Catholics that they rewrote the entire Turkic history for themselves, and in general the Germans are the Turks in fact, and in general all people descended from the Turks. I am exaggerating, of course, but the newly minted historians have much more distortions than reasonable thoughts in their books. Aji seems to have calmed down, but now a wave of fantasy history has begun in the Russian world. Arguing with the Fomenkovites is like writing a serious piece against Carroll's story "Alice Through the Looking Glass", proving that Lewis is wrong in every sentence.
          Fomenkov's theory consists of enchanting lace bullshit. If we once again resort to hyperbole, then fans of alternative history shout: "The water is yellow, because it has already been scientifically proven that summer comes after spring!" And when they see your perplexed look regarding this nonsense, they sarcastically add: "Or do you want to argue that after spring comes summer? Then you - admire it! This is a calendar! It is clearly stated that after spring comes summer! So water - yellow, and don't argue with that! "
          Well, and what to answer? Given that Fomenko and his associates of such proposals generated thousands in their opus.
        2. wax
          +4
          28 February 2013 00: 54
          If you translate from Russian to German, and then from German to English and from it again to Russian (and not with an auto-translator) - will there be many coincidences?
          But if you translate from Latin or Russian into Chinese. and then back? I think that in this case, the Chinese text will lose all connection with the original source. Therefore, doubling and tripling of historical descriptions is quite possible and even logical. Already for this alone, Fomenko can be evaluated positively. Therefore, the study of monuments of material culture, where there are inscriptions, as Fomenko correctly emphasizes, is very informative. It is possible that Fomenko was too carried away and was wandering about fantasizing, but still he stirred up the swamp of history.
      2. +2
        27 February 2013 10: 28
        Quote: baltika-18
        If we want to know the truth, historians need to be superior to politics, ideology and research without bias, despite the crushing authorities.

        Exactly!
      3. Che
        Che
        +2
        27 February 2013 14: 28
        baltika-18,
        + I agree with you, it is necessary to study, and not to hush up. This is the story of our ethnos still inhabiting these territories.
    2. +2
      27 February 2013 12: 54
      Recently I was in Moscow, went with the younger to the historical one. You know what a fourteen-year-old "historian" told me when looking at Scythian jewelry: Dad, for 2, 5 thousand years we (humanity) have significantly degraded. We cannot do what they did.
      And I didn’t even have any arguments. If we accept the Nosovsky-Fomenko hypothesis (!!!) as the faith (!!!), then the history is not even reduced by 400-500 years, but by 1000 or 1500. Although, in my opinion, the Scythians, this is a completely different civilization and their Parthenon stands in a completely different place
      1. 0
        27 February 2013 14: 21
        rexby63
        So we and the five-story building will not be able to manually build, so far we are to the Egyptians with their pyramids)
      2. Marek Rozny
        +5
        27 February 2013 14: 51
        Until recently, nomads Kazakhs and Turkmens sculpted tons of silver jewelry without any factories and machine tools. You would look at the dress of an ordinary Turkmen woman, and then you would tell your son that he was mistaken, and that the nomads are still famous for their distinctive and elegant jewelry art.
        1. +2
          27 February 2013 19: 26
          But the nomads did not degrade. In my opinion - Western civilization promotes regression
        2. Earthman
          +1
          27 February 2013 20: 43
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          Until recently, nomads Kazakhs and Turkmens sculpted tons of silver jewelry without any factories and machine tools. You would look at the dress of an ordinary Turkmen woman, and then you would tell your son that he was mistaken, and that the nomads are still famous for their distinctive and elegant jewelry art.

          My mother preserved the old ring of manual ebb of the Kazakh master. Yes, in general, nomads valued silver more than gold, unless ALYP-SATAR operations
          1. Marek Rozny
            +2
            28 February 2013 11: 46
            "Әshekeyi joқ ayel, zhapyraғy zhoқ aғashpen teң". "An unadorned woman is a tree without leaves."
            My mother also has a lot of old Kazakh silver. Very graceful decorations. And some ... warm. Modern silver is cleaner but looks chilly. Kazakh-Turkmen silver is darker and "warmer".
    3. Marek Rozny
      +2
      27 February 2013 16: 37
      Quote: Igarr
      In all this, one thing pleases.
      Since we are actively discussing all this, it means that we are not indifferent people.
      So something else is burning in the shower. In heart.
      And not just pizza and cola left.
      ...
      As for .... inconsistencies and, so beloved by some fantasy, - well, lan, let it be everyone's personal business.
      In the end, this is a matter of faith.
      Who likes pop, who popovskaya daughter.


      I am pleased to add for your point of view. Although I disagree with you constantly on the topic of the "Horde" inheritance))))
      IMHO, thanks to the host of historians and "historians", the Russians will come to a common denominator, as happened in general, quite recently in our country. There was also a splash on the wave "we are the coolest eggs", and then the people themselves became a professor of history))) We found more or less the optimum) Otherwise, until they were hoarse in the 90s, they argued, defending diametrically opposed points of view before their fellow tribesmen.
      1. +5
        27 February 2013 18: 18
        Marek, hello ...
        we do not converge so much in the small ... that, pah .. and grind.
        I say that the Golden Horde is completely "Steppe and Forest" in the civil war of the 13th century ...
        You say that there were also Mongols.
        And I do not deny ... I did not see them in that army.
        Will live.
        1. Earthman
          +1
          27 February 2013 20: 46
          Quote: Igarr
          You say that there were also Mongols.

          Mongols are a conditional concept like Macedonia, Egypt, Greece, Altai, Turkestan
          1. +2
            28 February 2013 22: 32
            [
            Quote: Earthman
            Mongols are a conditional concept like Macedonia, Egypt, Greece, Altai, Turkestan

            Sorry, you wrote crap, the mythical ancient Mongols were compared with real-life states.
      2. +2
        28 February 2013 22: 00
        Marek rozny,
        And then after all until the hoarseness in the 90s they argued, defending diametrically opposite points of view at the table in front of the fellow tribesman.
        Now you are arguing with us as well. We will wait when you come to a common denominator with us.
        1. Marek Rozny
          -2
          1 March 2013 00: 16
          To which denominator? Fomenkovsky? Thank you, fed up with historical fiction.
          1. Che
            Che
            +2
            1 March 2013 07: 38
            Marek Rozny,
            And what makes you so mad. You need to be softer to each other. Who annoyed you so much that you are already boiling.
          2. see
            see
            +1
            6 March 2013 11: 43
            Compared to Fomenko - you are sir, roadside dust ...
  7. BruderV
    -1
    27 February 2013 10: 05
    One can feel the approach of spring: metastases, exacerbations, seizures ... Now the Judeo-Masons, who rewrote the entire great Russian history at a time when there were still no Russians, appeared. Not a site, but a garbage can where everyone wants to pour their ismismalisms, picked up from the nose. Chukchi is not a reader, Chukchi is a writer wassat
    1. +3
      27 February 2013 10: 07
      Quote: BruderV
      Not a site, but a garbage can

      Do not like it, do not go.
      1. BruderV
        +5
        27 February 2013 10: 55
        Quote: baltika-18
        Do not like it, do not go.

        I don’t like what kind of information field is being created in the country. People who have long had time for orderlies and transportation call, trying to rewrite history in tyrnet. Can they still be invited to school history lessons? Russian fantasy writers will teach that there were no Mongols and Tatars, Tatar, that Russians never existed, Ukrainians will be told about ancient Ukrainians. And so there is no education, and here the remnants of knowledge are still finishing off, instilling the mythological consciousness of cavemen. Sometimes there is an understanding of why the Inquisition existed.
        1. +2
          27 February 2013 12: 18
          BruderV
          History will never be an independent science. She fulfilled and will fulfill the order of the political forces in power and there is no escape from this. In order for people not to become cavemen, it might be worthwhile to give them a multifaceted view of things. Otherwise, let's plant schoolchildren for studying the Bible and announce that the real story is written only there, and who doubts those Neanderthals, etc. Speaking of Neanderthals.
          I am still amazed, but even students in universities are still being shoved into the canonical version of human development - from the prezinjantrop (or whatever it is) to the evolution into a Cro-Magnon. At the same time, all the provisions that the Neanderthals were the final and dead-end branch of humanoid development are completely ignored and the Cro-Magnon had nothing to do with them (well, except that he quietly destroyed it). And they ignore it because they cannot explain where homo sapiens came from and Darwin's shaky theory of evolution seems more "convenient" from annoying questions.
          1. BruderV
            +6
            27 February 2013 12: 38
            Quote: Prometey
            At the same time, all the provisions that Neanderthals were the final and dead-end branch of the development of humanoid

            Oh, my friend! Did they tell you this in the 80s? Have you seen his brain? And the fact that he was physically more developed? And the fact that modern Europeans and Asians have about 10% of the DNA material just from Neanderthals? Using DNA analysis, two types of incest were established. In their pure form, homosaps are blacks! Look at the reconstruction of the appearance of the Neanderthal, there are many similar to modern peasants from the countryside)) Neanderthals did not die out, but joined in the newcomers homo sapiens.
            1. 0
              27 February 2013 12: 48
              Quote: BruderV
              Oh, my friend! Did they tell you this in the 80s? Have you seen his brain? And the fact that he was physically more developed? And the fact that modern Europeans and Asians have about 10% of the DNA material just from Neanderthals?

              Well, my education was apparently much more progressive. Even ossified Darwinist teachers did not believe in the incest of Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons. A squat and stunted non-Nedrintal man could not have been more resilient and stronger than a Cro-Magnon man (otherwise Homo Habelis would have survived in this fight).
              1. 0
                28 February 2013 01: 06
                In fact, the non-standard is not Homo habilis, but Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, Cro-Magnon - Homo sapiens sapiens.
            2. +1
              28 February 2013 15: 15
              Why do the peasants look - our pride is sports Nikolai Valuev. And my opinion, if not for this impurity, we would be much dumber
          2. BruderV
            +3
            27 February 2013 13: 52
            Quote: Prometey
            History will never be an independent science. She fulfilled and will fulfill the order of the political forces in power and there is no escape from this. In order for people not to become cavemen, it might be worthwhile to give them a multifaceted view of things

            What is this? The Proto-Slavs flew in a huge starship from the constellation Sirius, fleeing the eight-armed six-headed Masonic rocket-mutants and founded the Earth Hyperborea-Scythia on the planet, but then the Masonic scientists discovered them and with the help of a singular quasi-relay relay to our planet and began to plot Slavic history, at the same time dividing alien peoples into the once Slavic lands. Now each newborn is implanted in the brain with a chip (and Dale at the same time), distorting reality and forcing to forget the great past, and those whose brains resist this action are declared crazy, put in a psychiatric hospital and do a lobotomy. Should this be an alternative story? These are my beliefs and I demand that they be respected and promoted to the masses, let them write textbooks on my works, the traditional history of lies.
            1. 0
              27 February 2013 14: 13
              BruderV
              Do not be idiotic, you understand what is at stake. Keep stories of starships with you. Prove that we should study ancient Russian history only according to the version of Milerr-Bayer-Schletzer and completely ignore the naturally occurring sensible (not absurd!) Questions, even if they are raised by the same Nosovsky and Fomenko?
              1. BruderV
                +5
                27 February 2013 15: 03
                Why do you immediately take with hostility my version of the extraterrestrial origin of the Slavs? You are as traditional and stubborn as everyone else that you do not even consider other obvious versions. And what kind of Schletser wrote about the yoke? You should have gone to the museum instead of reading any pseudo-historical heresy for a weekend under a beer, authoritative sources would have read, broadened your horizons, then there would have been no inconsistencies and everything would have developed. If you try to measure people who lived a thousand years ago with modern standards and treats history as a blockbuster, without trying to understand how those people imagined the world around them, then incomprehensions come out. And how they built the pyramids, and how on horses thousands of kilometers passed. Of course, sitting behind a monitor without lifting anything heavier than a mouse can’t imagine this. And Fomenko is not even a historian. This is called let the goat into the garden. I’d take it up with my mathematics, otherwise I would like to get dough and fame, but for mathematics they don’t even give the Nobel Prize - it's boring things. Let’s talk about the world history of janitors or stylists like Zverev. Amateurs sat down to write history and what is there to discuss?
                1. +5
                  27 February 2013 19: 13
                  Quote: BruderV
                  Of course, sitting behind a monitor without lifting anything heavier than a mouse can’t imagine this.

                  In this I agree with you 100% This is exactly what historians and academics should say, who have never hammered a nail in their entire lives, but describe in detail the process of shooting from a super-Mongolian bow with a bowstring tension of over 50 kg.
                  In my youth, for 4 years, I worked as an installer of external pipelines before I learned and already switched to a warmer job. What is physical activity approximately represent. So I say, unlucky the ancient Egyptians laughing I would very much like to invite experts on the history of Ancient Egypt for a week or two in a trench, so that they clearly show how to turn for example reinforced concrete blocks of 1 ton weight without lifting mechanisms (because in books this is so all described in detail).
                  1. +1
                    27 February 2013 20: 11
                    I’m afraid that now there would be other history textbooks if they had visited the ditch.
                2. Cpa
                  +3
                  27 February 2013 21: 02
                  Amateurs, found Tutankhamun and Troy, professionals came up with a nuclear bomb.
                3. wax
                  +1
                  28 February 2013 01: 09
                  Have you not noticed that a person capable of mathematics is sophisticated in all the sciences in nature? (Plato)
                  Mathematics is the language in which the book of nature is written. (G. Galilei)
                  It is then necessary to teach mathematics that it brings the mind into order. (M.V. Lomonosov)

                  But should some listen to Mikhail Lomonosov?
                  1. Marek Rozny
                    -2
                    28 February 2013 11: 51
                    Mikhailo Lomonosov, whom I deeply respect for his work in the natural sciences, wrote complete nonsense about history. In my opinion, he took up this topic, only to the Germans from the Academy of Sciences to annoy. Even academic historians are embarrassed to refer to Lomonosov.
                    1. Che
                      Che
                      +1
                      1 March 2013 07: 44
                      Marek rozny,
                      Lomonosov to cheat, it is easy when he is no more. The remaining artifacts speak and scream about the distortion of history. By whom? The answer is west. From time immemorial, fear of Eurasia has frozen their minds.
                      1. Marek Rozny
                        -1
                        4 March 2013 15: 49
                        Pffff, what is it for? I do not belittle the genius of Lomonosov as a scientist in the natural sciences. However, as a historian, Lomonosov was a complete zero. His whole story is an attempt to cheat on the Germans from the Academy of Sciences for personal reasons. Have you read Lomonosov? I guess not. Otherwise, they would not argue even on this topic. Have you ever seen references to Lomonosov in historical research? Of course not. There is really baby talk.
                      2. Ingvald_Bueny
                        +1
                        4 March 2013 19: 23
                        Well, surprise us with your historical works that are superior to the works of Lomonosov. What does full zero mean? Compared to whom? With you?
                      3. Marek Rozny
                        0
                        4 March 2013 22: 16
                        you may be surprised at least a little, but even the current student in history fumbles better than Lomonosov. read it first, and then continue this conversation.
    2. 0
      28 February 2013 06: 22
      Quote: BruderV
      the Jewish masses who rewrote the entire great Russian history at a time when there were still no Russians


      Admit it all - for the sake of this phrase winked .
  8. +5
    27 February 2013 10: 16
    I've read Fomenko. Their book seemed to me amusing. Too revolutionary ideas. But certainly interesting - I advise everyone to read their new chronology. because in the history of Russia there are too many inconsistencies, and they, perhaps, give at least some explanation
    1. Che
      Che
      +4
      27 February 2013 14: 36
      Jaros81,
      I just started reading it and was struck by his hypothesis, and honestly believed in it. Well, I do not believe Scaliger.
      1. +2
        27 February 2013 18: 37
        Guys ....
        start with the very first book. Where the mathematical apparatus itself is given. Based on what research they searched for parallels.
        References to Newton, to other researchers.
        Russia and Rome, 1 volume

        ...
        And hypothetical constructions ... - they position them in such a way - as one of the options.
        DO NOT INSERT.
        And they offer.
        There is a difference?
        1. +4
          27 February 2013 19: 17
          Igarr,
          You are completely right. They do not fundamentally reject anything, but offer to reflect on inconsistencies in the historical past about inconsistencies and describe only one of the possible scenarios.
          1. see
            see
            0
            6 March 2013 11: 53
            In general, it is strange to reject if the Prince is depicted in a 13th-century painting
            Yaroslav and written all his titles - Khan Batya, Amir of Russia ....
        2. avt
          +2
          27 February 2013 20: 00
          Quote: Igarr
          start with the very first book. Where the mathematical apparatus itself is given.

          And here you are one hundred percent right! The most interesting thing is that after the reprint of the first two books, volumes appeared with their signature, and if you compare the manner of writing the text, well, you don't need to be a graphologist - different people wrote. It seems to me that they gave me the right to publish to the "students" and my soul rushed to heaven for the money. I noticed such a crap with Gumilyov's editions. I bought a lifetime edition - nothing like that, it is easy to read, easy. He was generally a cheerful and witty man. But he wanted to to buy one of his work after death - so such an edition supplemented with the texts of which Gumilyov himself did not know, but a multivolume .... in short, he spat and left.
        3. +5
          28 February 2013 01: 21
          Quote: Igarr
          Guys ....
          start with the very first book. Where the mathematical apparatus itself is given. Based on what research they searched for parallels.

          Then it’s better to start with Morozov. At least the topic is not so biased - the Apocalypse. There, both the apparatus and methodology are presented not badly. By the way, the same methodology is used by Nosovsky and Fomenko.
          Personally, Morozov convinced me. But church views on these same issues - no way.
  9. EXA-2
    -1
    27 February 2013 12: 10
    Delirium, delirium and again delirium.
    But on the other hand, America is taught in schools that the Americans won the Second World War. Each country writes its own story and this story can be very different from its neighbors.
    1. 0
      27 February 2013 12: 50
      Quote: EXA-2
      But on the other hand, America is taught in schools that the Americans won the Second World War.

      Oh really? Wasn't the USA a victorious state in World War II? Or do you have irrefutable facts proving the opposite?
      1. EXA-2
        +4
        27 February 2013 13: 32
        Prometey,
        A friend in America asked his son - "who won the war." The son replied that the Americans. Then he asked the question - "The USSR took part in the war." He replied that no. This is history - a history that is convenient for this state.
        1. -2
          27 February 2013 14: 02
          EXA-2
          Well, if we are talking about World War II, why can't Americans say that they won if they joined the ranks of the winning states? If it’s about the Second World War, well, they didn’t have such a thing and the ordinary American layman actually got violet (well, if that’s real).
  10. +4
    27 February 2013 12: 25
    And cutlets and flies, all in one heap.
  11. +4
    27 February 2013 13: 01
    A very important article, fully supported by many Independent Researchers. For example, Georgy Sidorov, for 20 years of his life traveled the whole north from Murmansk to Kamchatka, communicating with representatives of local peoples and with the Old Believers. He confirms the conclusions of Alexander Samsonov.
    1. BruderV
      +4
      27 February 2013 13: 31
      Quote: Ross
      traveled all over the north from Murmansk to Kamchatka, communicating with representatives of local peoples and with the Old Believers. He confirms the conclusions of Alexander Samsonov.

      This is a new word in historical science. Now we’ll write textbooks from the words of that grandmother’s left with a crutch. Yes, let’s immediately study the history of ancient Greece according to myths and legends.
      1. +1
        1 March 2013 19: 20
        And is it (the history of Ancient Greece) somehow differently studied? bully
    2. Che
      Che
      0
      27 February 2013 14: 40
      Ross,
      In the region of Murmansk, even the destroyed pyramids were discovered. Someone else Barsky talked about this.
      1. Marek Rozny
        0
        27 February 2013 16: 40
        and under Chimkent on the top of Mount Kazygurt lie the remains of Noah’s ark. ask any chimkents))))
  12. Beck
    0
    27 February 2013 13: 39
    Fomenkovism is Galimatia nationalistic. We also have our own Natsik. They need to be erected to listen to the monument in every courtyard of Eurasia. Nonsense with a bump and vice versa.
    1. +2
      27 February 2013 15: 40
      Dear Beck, there is one significant difference. We send our schizoids from history openly to the figs, but their Russian "colleagues" have whole armies of loyal fans.
      1. Beck
        -1
        27 February 2013 16: 14
        Quote: romb
        We openly send our schizoids from history to the figs, but their Russian "colleagues" have whole armies of loyal fans.


        That's for sure. More precisely and no. And here on the site I did not read a single koment of fellow countrymen about the immaculate conception of Kazakhs.
  13. 0
    27 February 2013 13: 42
    Let's keep the history of Russia from Luke Skywalker! Arguments - in traditions we have a sword-treasure, that is, a Jedi light sword! Further, in Russia there is the concept of a heavenly army, a direct reference to the Jedi wars! Later, their descendants became Cossacks, that's where their daring comes from! There was in the legends a villain all in black Kashchei the Immortal — a portrait resemblance to Darth Vader !!!! Vasilisa is beautiful - Princess Leia. Serpent Gorynych - Imperial Fleet !!!! Well and the last if to incline a name Luke. Luke Lulik Ryuk Rurik. Skywalker - Skywalker - Scandinavian !!!! That is, it turns out the first prince of Russia -Luke Skywalker !!! And most importantly, there is nowhere to be mentioned that it is not so !!! CHRONICLES SUSPECTIVELY SILENT)))))))))
    1. -1
      27 February 2013 13: 49
      Well, here you bent, you said that our ancestors flew from another planet, on a spaceship that was knocked out ... but although you are not right, BOTH ONE, this is the discovery "if I were in your place for a doctoral dissertation "(from)
      1. -1
        27 February 2013 13: 52
        I'll review the trilogy again and sit down to write an epic! Fomenko and Rezun minus, such obvious evidence to blink !!!))))
        1. Marek Rozny
          +2
          27 February 2013 14: 57
          This is all nonsense, of course - about the starship and the Jedi swords. But the fact that the Earth was flat and it was held by three Kazakhs - Kitbai, Turtle-jean and Sloanobek - is a clear fact. Nicaraguan Jews simply rewrote our glorious history in order to humiliate the Kazakhs. I will never forgive them!
          1. +2
            27 February 2013 15: 04
            But no, dear colleague, you should have been given an anathema and burned in public. According to Jedi memories, there are no Kazakhs in Space. Turning to history, the chronicler Lucas very clearly focused on the fact that the earth is round and revolves around the sun and this is indisputable evidence that the Death Star existed.
            1. Marek Rozny
              +3
              27 February 2013 16: 58
              Lucas-jean wrote 7000 years after the death of the mentioned Kazakh batyrs. in addition, his texts were repeatedly copied to please the Karakalpak authorities, who announced the sphericity of the Earth after Abu Raikhan Biruni expressed this heresy 500 years before Copernicus.
              And if the Earth revolved around the Sun, then all the people on Earth would have long fallen from it to Tartarara (aka Russian Tataria).
              And the "Death Star" is a veiled ancient Aryan curse. Literally meant "___ wow you, devils!" But the scribes inserted this completely "left" phrase into the text of the manuscripts. Better to turn to the original source - "The Fifth Chronicle. Tartary Strikes Back". The ruler of the Middle Zhuz Yodda Khan replied to the young Kipchak batyr Lyukbai Skywalker-uly:
              "- It's unpleasant here ... I feel cold, .. death ...
              - The dark side of the Force reigns here ... This is the abode of Evil. You must enter. "

              That's what the original says! And the Karakalpak census takers who tried to steal the truth from us replaced the definitions! In the annals of Lucasjan, Yodda Khan said that inside Lukbai is the "dark side", "Evil abode". And compare how it was turned out now - "Death Star"! Look at modern Mongolia, could they, with their short-legged horses, create such a complex technical device! There's not even snow there! The Death Star would have gotten stuck and frozen in the Ryazan forests!
              1. 0
                27 February 2013 18: 52
                None Fig Se ...
                here and talk with such ..
                the most important "Kazakh" in the Empire was forgotten ...
                there he is...
                [

                Master Yoda..
  14. 0
    27 February 2013 14: 10
    The history of Russia was originally filmed by George Lucas after having visited Siberia, where he was mistakenly sent by the KGB. In 1963, he was stolen from Los Angeles by secret services by mistake, confused with a bummer by a dissident Solzhenitsyn. In Siberia, he met a shaman, of the Order of Osiris and the keeper of the Russian Ancient Vedas, she told him the story of the space wanderings of the first Russian prince Luke-Rurikovich, after returning to America, George filmed the story of the shaman woman, by the way, according to the stories of the same witch, he could la the great Russian Master Yoda (Yoda-governor) is in Afghanistan, are explained here than endless invasion of that country.
    1. BruderV
      0
      27 February 2013 18: 16
      By the way, George Lucas is actually Zhora Lukashin, who was renamed by all the same Masons, was forced to distort the names of ancient Russian knights. Master Windu is actually the master of Vedun, Boba Fet, actually Vova Vetrov, Django Fet - Janko Vetrov, Han Solo is actually the Khan Konstantin Solovyov. Emperor Darth Sidious (Sedovlas) - Chancellor Palpatine, only stress should be done by PaltAtin, also a Russian man. Well, Chubaka is a completely Russian dude. So it all fits together.
      1. Marek Rozny
        +1
        27 February 2013 18: 41
        It remains to collect all of our nonsense into a single text, ascribe to our surnames our merits in mathematics, biology, physical education and cut loot. People picks.
      2. 0
        27 February 2013 18: 53
        You forgot Fedka Kastorkina in Cuba (Fidel Castro) and Bear Zadunaysky
        (Mao Ze Dong). And how many of them are still scattered around the world, horror.
        1. -1
          27 February 2013 20: 22
          add the Russian milkmaid Manka Matyukova, the operational pseudonym Mireille Mathieu. And you can call an ambulance.
  15. -3
    27 February 2013 14: 58
    Increasingly, I began to "look" at the Russian News Agency. Sometimes the brains become vorskoryaku. It was great that they drummed into us the History (of Russia, the World, the USSR), not to mention the History of the CPSU ... It's good that a lot is being revealed now. The only pity is that young people are growing too apolitical.
  16. +5
    27 February 2013 15: 42
    You can, of course, laugh at the crazy or wretched sorrow of historians claiming that the Volga is the Volkhov, Novgorod is Yaroslavl, etc.
    But in fact, the popularity of such scriptures is a rather alarming symptom.
    1) This indicates the weakness of Russia. Strong or aspiring states and nations do not need to fabricate historical myths, or to agitate their history. They generally think more about current problems and are looking to the future.
    On the contrary, weak or dying states and peoples are trying to find for themselves "psychological compensation" for their current state in an appeal to deep antiquity and in rewriting history.
    2) This indicates a defeat in the consciousness of people. A person who is unable to think rationally, and who believes in Alan Chumak, even in Fomenko, is very easy to manipulate and control. However, this is a problem characteristic of the entire modern West, and not only for Russia.
    1. BruderV
      +2
      27 February 2013 15: 54
      Yes, against the background of all that isoteric and sacred knowledge that already from every iron come the sick maniac in a monotonous slow voice, Fomenkovism seems quite adequate and scientific to the average man. After watching a film about paleocontacts, Bigfoot, Chupacabra and other evil spirits, the Slavs - the lords of the world seem to be fragile minds already quite natural and believable. They pumped the whole brain of the people.
  17. +3
    27 February 2013 16: 32
    The article has very good reason to claim the truth ... And here's why:
    1. It is no secret how history has been and is being treated in the Western "civilization" - they destroy the unwanted. They themselves admit this, and the darkness is too much. (Take at least the present tense and the interpretation of World 2 by the West. Does it look like anything? The West won the war and Russia is not mentioned ...)
    So - having come to power in Russia, they rewrote it (history) in their own way.
    2. Genetic studies of the Russian population - genes from the Mongols are less than that of the SWEDISH (!). And how is the IGA 300 years old, but there are no genes left?
    3. The mass of written sources and facts SILENT or not explained by the current historical "science".
    1. BruderV
      -1
      27 February 2013 16: 54
      Quote: I think so
      The West won the war and Russia is not mentioned ...)

      And let me read in the original where it is. That's how many watched and read, I haven’t seen anything like this anywhere. That in the description of the battle in the Ardennes there is no mention of Russians? Well, they were probably not there.
      Quote: I think so
      300 years of the IGA, but no genes left?

      Well, look in Tatarstan, somewhere in Elista, at the feet. What were the nomads in the forests doing? How much can one weave the same?
      Quote: I think so
      The mass of written sources and facts SILENT or not explained by the current historical "science

      Well, since it has never been written anywhere that the Slavs didn’t arrive on starships, it means that they arrived on starships. What exactly were silent? Vedas fabricated in the 20th century?
    2. +1
      28 February 2013 22: 15
      I think so,
      There was no Mongol invasion, where did he come from. Relocation of the Turks? Quite possible. Pan-Turkism, the same nationalism, but in a different wrapper.
  18. +3
    27 February 2013 17: 08
    Well, nothing .... for the time being ... make a noise .... Medinsky already knows the truth, and soon we will all know, love.
    "Everyone will be cured ... and you will be cured, and you, ... and I will be cured ..."

    I’d like to know who they are, these HISTORIANS that will begin (yes, go ahead and start digging a single history textbook) ..... well, at least the end of their last names ...
  19. +4
    27 February 2013 17: 54
    I wonder how, in 300 years from now, historians will interpret the phrase: - "Russia was under the rule of the Reds for 70 years ..."?
  20. lechatormosis
    +2
    27 February 2013 18: 13
    ONE time the brains soared through the media that Hitler defeated the Americans
    and RUSSIAN BARBARS IN GERMANY were by accident.
    IN THE HISTORY of the so-called MONGOLO OF THE TATAR IGA there are a lot of white spots that OFFICIAL HISTORIANS try to carefully circumvent
    and all doubtful moments are covered with beautiful fairy tales.
  21. 0
    27 February 2013 18: 50
    And there were people registered in Tours (there is such a settlement in the Krasnoyarsk Territory) They were called Tureregs, but the letter p disappeared and they became Tuaregs. And now they rush with Kalash in Africa, looking for happiness in a foreign land.
    1. 0
      27 February 2013 20: 25
      by the way they are fair-skinned))))
    2. 0
      27 February 2013 20: 28
      I'll come in. For happiness.
  22. kvodrato
    0
    27 February 2013 19: 09
    Tatar-Mongol yoke - a lie
    1. Horde
      +2
      27 February 2013 21: 01
      What do we know about Scythia? According to the traditional history of TI, Scythia is a country inhabited by the nomadic people of the same name as the IRANIAN ORIGIN, who lived before our era, who was settled in the Black Sea steppes! but is it true? Here is a map of the late 17th century I can’t say whose map, but the zero meridian goes to Britain, although Greenwich had a NULL meridian, only in the middle of the 19th century.
      The map clearly reads Scythia, the Scythian Ocean, not to mention GREAT TARTARIA THE KINGDOM OF HAM. There are still maps with the toponyms of Scythia, and certainly not in HISTORICAL times, but only 400 years ago.
      Here's a clear historical CONTRADICTION. How could it turn out that the 16th-century people were sent to when Herodotus lived there? In the 5th century BC approximately then there were Scythians in the representation of academic science.

      The main thing is that the "Fomenkovtsy" in their works published a large number of traces of the presence of Russians in Europe and throughout Eurasia.


      according to FIN, the conquest of Western Europe took place bloodless and painless, because during the conquest of the 14th-15th centuries, Europe was very small in number. laughing (well, this is generally hilarious) and was the cultural PROFESSOR of the Romans, left behind a quite ENOUGH number of artifacts with inscriptions that are deciphered in RUSSIAN. In Etruscan texts, up to 60% of RUSSIAN words! So this STUNNING fact was discovered (decoding of inscriptions) in the 19th century the works of Vollandsky and Chertkov. And how did academic Western science react to this? NO! Etruscan is not readable. Maybe there is some reason to categorically deny the work of scientists. There are none. The answer is one - "... it cannot be that the Russians were before the Romans." But what about the facts? And do not care about the facts! So much for the TRADITIONAL HISTORY! I think we also have every reason not to recognize SUCH SCIENCE.
      1. +1
        27 February 2013 22: 06
        here you even surpassed Adolf Hitler with his envy of the coliseum! Bravo!
        1. Horde
          0
          1 March 2013 19: 59
          here you even surpassed Adolf Hitler with his envy of the coliseum! Bravo!


          poor Adik and here he is too ... ali. The Colosseum of Rome was built in the first half of the 19th century. The present Colosseum is located in Istanbul. Yes, and the famous Cologne Cathedral, which allegedly built 500 years, is also 80% product of the 19th century.
      2. 0
        27 February 2013 22: 18
        Quote: Horde
        The map clearly reads Scythia, the Scythian Ocean, not to mention GREAT TARTARIA THE KINGDOM OF HAM. There are still maps with the toponyms of Scythia, and certainly not in HISTORICAL times, but only 400 years ago.

        The contradiction is only in your head.
        Scythians in the Middle Ages (and sometimes later) in the West were called little-known eastern steppe peoples. Sometimes this word was used as a swear nickname.
        There is a poet A. Blok. So, as opposed to calling names Scythians, he made it a source of pride, saying "Yes, Scythians, we are! Yes, Asians, we are."
        Quote: Horde
        .In the texts of Etruscans, up to 60% of RUSSIAN words! So, this EXTREMELY fact was discovered (decoding of inscriptions) for another 19th century, the work of Wollandsky and Chertkov. And how did the academic read Western science react to this?

        I did the right thing, that I didn’t react at all. Because this is nonsense.
        Give me an example of an Etruscan text where 60% of Russian words.
        1. Horde
          +1
          27 February 2013 22: 38
          Odysseus,
          The contradiction is only in your head.


          did your friend even look at the map? gives laughing and here my head is in fact a MAP with the END 16th century
          Give me an example of an Etruscan text where 60% of Russian words.


          Wait, look, do not run away
          1. bask
            +2
            27 February 2013 22: 43
            Quote: Horde
            The contradiction is only in your head.

            Good night. Horde. I read your posts. I learned a lot of new things. +
            1. Horde
              0
              27 February 2013 23: 19
              Hello basque! join the conversation smile
              1. bask
                -1
                27 February 2013 23: 31
                Quote: Horde
                hello ask! join the conversation

                Thank you .Orda. I am more on tanks and armored vehicles. It's a pity Ross wrote a little. He also has a lot of info on the topic.
          2. -1
            27 February 2013 22: 58
            Quote: Horde
            did your friend even look at the map? in and what does it have to do with my head, after all, this is a MAP with the END of the 16th century

            Dear friend, if you think that the map of the 21st century and the map of the Middle Ages are the same thing, you are very mistaken.
            Then people did not know the location of all the seas and rivers, countries and peoples.
            Therefore, they thought up things they did not know, they took the names from the luggage of their existing knowledge. In our case, the concept of Scythia was known to Europeans since the time of Herodotus.
            Quote: Horde
            Wait, look, do not run away

            I look forward to smile
            1. Horde
              +2
              27 February 2013 23: 47
              I look forward to


              decoding table compiled by Thaddeus Volansky from Etruscan to Russian and Polish.



              I give you a link to the site from which you can download the work of Volansky
              1. Horde
                +1
                28 February 2013 00: 13
                Volansky decryption table
                1. 0
                  28 February 2013 00: 55
                  Quote: Horde

                  Volansky decryption table

                  "Brilliant" transcript.
                  All Etruscan characters are stupidly invited to read to us like Cyrillic laughing
                  1. 0
                    28 February 2013 22: 26
                    Odysseus,
                    Not Cyrillic, but Old Slavonic here. Do not confuse rams.
                    1. +1
                      28 February 2013 23: 14
                      Quote: Sandov
                      Not Cyrillic, but Old Slavonic here. Do not confuse rams

                      Oh, how everything is running.
                      Old Slavonic, my friend, is the language.
                      And the Cyrillic alphabet (along with the verb) is the ABC of which this language is written.
                      1. Che
                        Che
                        0
                        1 March 2013 11: 58
                        Odysseus,
                        Before the Cyrillic alphabet there was a Glagolitic alphabet, and before it there was a runic letter, and even further features and cuts. Something like this.
                      2. +1
                        2 March 2013 01: 20
                        Quote: Che
                        Before the Cyrillic alphabet there was a Glagolitic alphabet, and before it there was a runic letter, and even further features and cuts. Something like this

                        We are discussing the "decryption" of Volynsky-there Cyrillic
                        And in response they write to me that there is Old Slavonic))), and you write about what was supposedly before the Cyrillic alphabet)))
                        Do you yourself read what you protect?
              2. -1
                28 February 2013 00: 49
                belay
                Well, where is at least one Russian word here?
                What you brought is just a fantasy version of the translation of this inscription.
                With the same success, I can translate it like this - "I throw it into the soup, oh, and the lunch will be delicious"
                And consider yourself on this basis a translator from Etruscan smile
                1. Horde
                  +4
                  28 February 2013 01: 02
                  and what do you think the decryption here gives the GERMAN version, or maybe ITALIAN, or is it decrypted in Chinese? again no. DECODING gives only RUSSIAN.
                  1. -3
                    28 February 2013 01: 10
                    Damn, well, you and the tundra))
                    Why did you get the idea that this Etruscan inscription (in which, contrary to your statements, there is not a single Russian word) is read as it will, give it something for nothing?
                    1. Horde
                      +1
                      28 February 2013 07: 36
                      Why did you get the idea that this Etruscan inscription (in which, contrary to your statements, there is not a single Russian word) is read as it will, give it something for nothing?


                      I see you are starting to get personal? Is dullness an innate and irreversible process? or maybe you're not Russian? minus
                      The phrase "WHAT IS POSSIBLE FOR ANY MELEK CHAINS" is quite understandable to a RUSSIAN person, not a Chinese, not a pin dosu, but a Russian. This is the first. The second, except as in Russian this phrase is not deciphered so easily, in Illyrian, Polish is worse. Well, it doesn't work in Italian or Latin at all. But of course this does not mean that "Etruscan is not readable"
                      1. +1
                        28 February 2013 20: 31
                        Quote: Horde
                        I see you are starting to get personal? Is dullness an innate and irreversible process? or maybe you're not Russian? minus
                        The phrase "WHAT IS POSSIBLE FOR ANY MELEK CHAINS" is quite understandable to a RUSSIAN person, not a Chinese, not a pin dosu, but a Russian. This is the first. The second, except as in Russian this phrase is not deciphered so easily, in Illyrian, Polish is worse. Well, it doesn't work in Italian or Latin at all. But of course this does not mean that "Etruscan is not readable"

                        I do not pass on to the person. But just kidding, the smile is worth it. You can not do otherwise))
                        Look, I'm asking you: where did you get the idea that the inscription in Etruscan reads like "Will give; maybe he doesn't care for anything"?
                        And you answer me that this phrase, which has come from nowhere, "Will you give it; maybe for not a darling," is understandable to a Russian person.
                        I don’t want to offend you, but the RUSSIANS call it - "In the garden is an elderberry, and in Kiev there is an uncle"
                        PS Russian I, Russian, do not worry.
                      2. Horde
                        +2
                        1 March 2013 19: 10
                        Look, I'm asking you: where did you get the idea that the inscription in Etruscan reads like "Will give; maybe he doesn't care for anything"?
                        And you answer me that this phrase, which has come from nowhere, "Will you give it; maybe for not a darling," is understandable to a Russian person.


                        I here it, for what laid out?

                        where does it come from ?, nda uncle, who are you in the frame of Heracles-Heraclius, it seems, by the number of MISCONTINUES you have, what have some relation to the traditional history of TI, these are very scrupulous guys STILL STUMPED a hundred times.
                        well, probably from the comparison is when a letter from the column with the name "antique" corresponds to a letter from the column with the name "Cyrillic" then the letters add up and there is a PHRASE, which in this sense, IN THIS WILL RECEIVE is complete nonsense in Latin, Italian, Chinese, German, but here in RUSSIAN it begins to sound meaningful, That is why Volansky concluded that the Etruscans were relatives of the Russians.
                      3. -1
                        2 March 2013 01: 34
                        Quote: Horde
                        well, probably from the comparison is when a letter from the column with the name "antique" corresponds to a letter from the column with the name "Cyrillic" then the letters add up and there is a PHRASE, which in this sense, IN THIS WILL RECEIVE is complete nonsense in Latin, Italian, Chinese, German, but here in RUSSIAN it begins to sound meaningful, That is why Volansky concluded that the Etruscans were relatives of the Russians.

                        The bast is hanging on Coke, we start all over again.
                        I already wrote that this "decryption" is based on the fact that Etruscan symbols are simply stupidly and completely arbitrarily replaced by Cyrillic. And this is not just nonsense, this is nonsense in a cube. Based on this "theory", you can take any language arbitrarily to compare its symbols with Cyrillic, then arbitrarily break the resulting text into words and "translate". And conclude that all languages ​​of the world from ancient Khetian to the language of the savages of the Tumba-Yumba tribe come from the Russian language.
                        Quote: Horde
                        it seems by the number of NON-MISCONDS you have, what does it have to do with traditional history

                        Of course not, do you really think that even one specialist historian or linguist could explain everything to you for so long and patiently? They would have reacted to your argument much more rudely.
                        Quote: Horde
                        nda uncle who are you with us on the frame of Heracles-Heraclius

                        Perhaps in the alternative world of lovers of "alternative history" this is Hercules-Heraclius, but in the normal world it is Odysseus.
                      4. Horde
                        -2
                        2 March 2013 02: 55
                        "decryption" is based on the fact that Etruscan symbols are simply stupidly and completely arbitrarily replaced by Cyrillic


                        I don’t know stupidly or acutely, but if Volansky’s technique works, then EVERYTHING is right.
                        but in a normal world it’s Odysseus.


                        oh missed got into Odyssey, okay ... laughing
                      5. Marek Rozny
                        -2
                        4 March 2013 16: 52
                        http://fatus.chat.ru/etrusk.html

                        "... Let's return to the work of F. Volansky." Relying on the Slavic languages, Volansky, not without success, tries to read not only Et-Russian ... inscriptions found in Italy, but also MANY OTHER ... inscriptions found in other countries Western Europe "...

                        ... For decryption, it is proposed to replace Etruscan symbols with Cyrillic ones and "read the text several times, delving into the meaning", and for this first "break the text into separate words", because "in the Old Russian texts ... no spaces were left between words" ... Old Russian, but not Etruscan! The symbol of the vertical ellipsis, clearly visible in the figure, has been successfully used for this very purpose since about the XNUMXth century. BC, according to TX. True, F. Volansky used all the partitions in the original text, but added his own at will. Partitions are essential.

                        Some letters in the table have 2-3 readings. The author actively uses these opportunities, placing additional vowels (which in itself is normal, if you believe the tradition) and breakdowns into words. As a result, the "Etruscan" text of the tablet differs from the original almost more than this first - the final "Russian version" of Fomenko-Nosovsky, where there are some Yezmen, Maidim, a bunch of interjections and, frankly, a schizophrenic meaning. So, the "decryption" of the tablet did not convince me personally.

                        Reading the inscriptions on the figures also leaves questions. The caption in fig. 5.12 (boy with a bird) according to the table from p. 474 is completely impossible to read. I can assume that this table is provided specifically for the translation of that gravestone inscription, and to read the inscription on the boy's leg, some other table is required, which does not add confidence to Volansky's research. Let's fill in the gaps in the table in his favor, then read some letters not as suggested in the table, but as advantageous in this case. As a result, we get: "VLEMZHCHKZANMLKCHED". In Volansky, this phrase turns into "Will give; maybe he doesn't care." Well, "maybe tea, maybe i ni ..." However, the original inscription really reminds me of this phrase. To achieve this clarity, the following concessions were made:

                        1) The first letter that was not in the table, but traditionally read as F, was read as Russian B.

                        2) The seventh letter, which was not in the table, is read as Ж (in the table the letter Ж corresponds to another Etruscan letter).

                        3) The letter (6 and 13), read as Russian C (in the tradition - SH or S), is read as M (which would be legal according to Volansky if it were turned upside down).

                        4) The letters 9 and 15, which are not in the table, are read as K (which, in general, corresponds to tradition).

                        5) The eleventh letter (graphic A) is read traditionally as A, whereas in the table the Russian letter A does not correspond to such a sign .... "
                      6. 0
                        5 March 2013 18: 26
                        In other languages, it’s simple that you can’t even read yourself, at least request .
                        Etruscan (oldest) texts are believed to be untranslatable. sad .
                        And suddenly! Moved!
                        So what? It is believed that no one in the world knows about this. laughing .
                  2. Marek Rozny
                    -2
                    28 February 2013 12: 01
                    Horde, do you know that Arabs actually also speak Russian? You just need to listen carefully to their speech.

                    1. Horde
                      -1
                      1 March 2013 19: 35
                      cool, but in my opinion it’s not Arabs, it would not hurt to translate the text, it is possible that there will be some correspondences to associations behind external forms.
            2. Horde
              +1
              28 February 2013 00: 07
              Quote: Odyssey
              Dear friend, if you think that the map of the 21st century and the map of the Middle Ages are the same thing, you are very mistaken.
              Then people did not know the location of all the seas and rivers, countries and peoples.
              Therefore, they thought up things they did not know, they took the names from the luggage of their existing knowledge. In our case, the concept of Scythia was known to Europeans since the time of Herodotus.


              propose to consider Mercator, Dürer, Herberstein, in short, all the outstanding cartographers and historians of that time simply moronic fiction? I don’t think so if Tartaria or Scythia is indicated on the maps, then of course it is not taken from the ceiling.
              1. -1
                28 February 2013 01: 04
                Quote: Horde
                propose to consider Mercator, Dürer, Herberstein, in short, all the outstanding cartographers and historians of that time simply moronic fiction? I don’t think so if Tartaria or Scythia is indicated on the maps, then of course it is not taken from the ceiling.

                Why inventors. They are did not know what is the geographical reality of many countries.
                Therefore, they rationally proceeded from what they knew. For the names of those localities and those peoples about which they had little information, they used the concepts that they had at their disposal.
                And the name "Scythia" in relation to Eastern Europe became widespread in ancient times.
                1. Horde
                  +1
                  28 February 2013 07: 49
                  They did not know the geographical reality of many countries.


                  but does it not seem too logical (stupid) that medieval printers KNEW I would write in Russian Georgia, Astrakhan, the Bashkir Horde, all this is displayed on the map and still persistently molded Scythians from "antiquity"?
                  1. 0
                    28 February 2013 20: 48
                    Pancake...... wassat
                    Well, I wrote that Scythia was just a generalized name for unknown eastern European territories.
                    Imagine that you live in the Oryol region, and you were instructed to create its map. But you live in its left part, and you don’t know (and no one knows) the exact geographical configuration of its right part. But it is written in authoritative sources that this land was called Mtsenshchina.
                    What will you do? You will correctly draw the left part of the region with all its names. And you will draw a general outline of the right part of it, and it will surely turn out to be geographically inaccurate. Rivers, hills, etc. will not be in their places. You will call this part of the region Mtsenshchina, since this is the only accessible and authoritative name for this area for you.
                    Everything is completely logical and simple.
                    1. Che
                      Che
                      +2
                      1 March 2013 08: 13
                      Odysseus,
                      The map of the Turkish admiral Piri Reis shows in detail Antarctica, America and other territories. Long before the discovery of these continents. It is a fact. Be able to refute.
                      1. 0
                        2 March 2013 01: 37
                        Quote: Che
                        The map of the Turkish admiral Piri Reis shows in detail Antarctica, America and other territories. Long before the discovery of these continents. It is a fact. Know how to refute

                        The burden of proof, dear, lies with affirming to the side.
                        If you claim that there is a dragon with three heads, then you must prove it, not I refute it.
                    2. Horde
                      +1
                      1 March 2013 19: 29
                      Everything is completely logical and simple.

                      your "logic" is the logic of the great armchair traveler fiction writer Julia-Verne. I sat for myself without leaving my office, writing books about travel - FOR CHILDREN! Here you are, too - "... the cartographers of the medieval stories of Marco Polo with adventures, with pirates and robbers have heard enough, and let's draw maps."
                      By the way, your words are not logical, as it turns out that the toponyms Kazan, Volga, Ra, Yaik are known to cartographers, and in fact almost all other names FULLY fit into the picture 16-17v. THESE KNOWLEDGE KNOWLEDGE THESE ARE KNOWING THESE SO YOUR WORDS HERE REMEMBER, AND HERE NOT REMEMBER NOT PERFORMING!
                      1. +2
                        2 March 2013 01: 57
                        Quote: Horde
                        your "logic" is the logic of the great armchair-traveler fiction writer Julia-Verne.

                        I explain for the last time. Sorry, but they don’t even serve the deaf twice a day, and I’m trying to explain the simplest thing to you for the fifth time.
                        Those geographical objects, the location of which the cartographers at least knew about, they naturally put on the map, and those territories about which little was drawn, outlined in general terms, with an outline; for these territories, they took the names from their cultural baggage. And this is not the logic of Jules True, this is the logic of any normal person. all old cards and all nations Open and watch.
                        Herodotus Atlanta in Africa, Pomponius Cretaceous Amazon on the Don and Antichthons south of Africa, Ptolemy Scythia to the Imaus mountains, and after the Imaus mountains, Idrisi-Majuj and Yajuj in Siberia, on the Catalan map of East Asia (1375), the country of Gog and Magog and the empire of Medea.
                      2. Horde
                        +1
                        2 March 2013 02: 49
                        I explain for the last time.

                        Enough to explain in "your logic" let the new ukry believe them, just such a "logic" is suitable. Such an explanation DOES NOT FIT for normal people.
                      3. bask
                        +1
                        2 March 2013 02: 54
                        Good night Horde. I read your posts. You write well
                      4. Beck
                        +2
                        2 March 2013 10: 50
                        Quote: Odyssey
                        I explain for the last time.


                        Yeah Odysseus. It was hard for you. I watched about your discussion about the essence of the card. Well, how much endurance and patience do you need? And there's nothing to be done, it’s such communication on the site. It’s like running away from a wife, from children.
                      5. 0
                        2 March 2013 22: 39
                        Quote: Beck
                        Well, how much endurance and patience do you need?

                        And don’t talk. I understood how hard the work of the teachers is))
                        And, by the way, I was very loyal to our "Fomenkovo" friends. In fact, I took their word for it. In fact, as you rightly noted, they first had to prove the falsity of their map and the correctness of its dating.
                        PS It would be very funny to hold a joint conference with the participation of Fomenkovists who believe that the whole world was created by Russians, ukronatsiks who believe that the whole world was created by ancient ukry, representatives of Central Asia (for sure, some clowns appeared in the 90s who thought that all Turks created the world), and representatives of the Caucasus (where there are enough of their fanatics)
                        That would be a panopticon smile
                      6. Beck
                        +1
                        3 March 2013 14: 11
                        Quote: Odyssey
                        That would be a panopticon


                        You do not know what we have Natsik. Everything around is Kazakh, everything around is mine. One pleases from my fellow countrymen, on this site, those are not visible.

                        I don’t agree with the panopticon. A panopticon is some kind of museum, collections of unusual rare things, etc. I would not call a panoptium, but a kunst camera.
                      7. +1
                        3 March 2013 19: 31
                        Quote: Beck
                        You do not know what we have Natsik. Everything around is Kazakh, everything around is mine. One pleases from my fellow countrymen, on this site, those are not visible.

                        Thank God I do not know))
                        Although last year I specially drove by car through Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan (there was not enough time for Tajikistan, and it is difficult to get to Turkmenistan), in order to assess the situation on the spot. And I was pleasantly surprised - if we talk about the "human factor" I am not noticed no obstacles to the restoration of a single state (on federal terms, of course). There would be political will ...
                      8. Beck
                        +2
                        4 March 2013 09: 29
                        Quote: Odyssey
                        Although last year I specially drove by car through Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan (there was not enough time for Tajikistan, and it is difficult to get to Turkmenistan), in order to assess the situation on the spot. And I was pleasantly surprised - if we talk about the "human factor" I am not noticed no obstacles to the restoration of a single state (on federal terms, of course). There would be political will ...


                        So these obstacles are not there. There were 90 everyday manifestations, so it was throughout the CIS. But as it became clear, so quickly passed. This Russian cheers-patriots some awkward screams I read on this site. They say that Russians are being expelled in Kazakhstan, they’re being taken away, they are not allowed to enter the business or the authorities. And that kind of rubbish.

                        And to create the EurAsEC is the command of the time. Do not lean against China. Russians and Turks lived side by side somewhere from the 9th century - Pechenegs, Polovtsy, black hoods, kobuy and others. And in one state more than half a thousand years. 300 years in the Golden Horde, 175 years in the Russian Empire, 75 years in the USSR.
                      9. 0
                        5 March 2013 18: 32
                        Quote: Odyssey
                        They took the names for these territories from their cultural baggage.


                        That is, no matter how they draw, whatever they call, their cultural baggage was insufficient, magnificent. Based on this, we choose what we like today No. .
                        Yes, and the cards that we are analyzing, from our zashniks, with our own dating. To prove it is necessary to use enemy laughing .
          3. +3
            28 February 2013 00: 25
            don’t look, the masses destroyed everything, cleaning up history, they also pulled out the second volume of Dead Souls from Gogol as soon as he finished it))))
      3. Beck
        -1
        28 February 2013 13: 41
        Quote: tomket
        Here is a map of the late 17th century I can’t say whose map, but the zero meridian goes to Britain, although Greenwich had a NULL meridian, only in the middle of the 19th century.


        What is this map? Who drew it? When? Where was it first discovered?

        There are many questions. But, logically, in the first place they doubt not the academic science, but the map itself. There are many artifacts related to errors, fakes, etc.

        If you take an alcoholic freak from the Petrovsky Kunst camera, this does not mean that in the 18th century half of the inhabitants of Russia were like that.
      4. +1
        28 February 2013 22: 20
        Horde,
        +++ In Chudinov, it is written in detail and in detail in Vagriya.
      5. Che
        Che
        +2
        1 March 2013 08: 04
        Horde,
        Yes, the cards incriminate the west in the distortion and distortion of history. As my history teacher said, not all that glitters is gold.
    2. -2
      27 February 2013 21: 11
      there is no real argument, evidence at the level of ren tv. Batu-dad and Mom-mom, I can’t laugh)))))
      1. Horde
        +1
        27 February 2013 21: 16
        Quote: tomket
        there is no real argument, evidence at the level of ren tv.


        More specifically, what is not? no bread, no potatoes?
        1. 0
          27 February 2013 21: 48
          firstly, all information is provided either in fragments from the general context or in quotes, as you know, using quotes in isolation from the full text, you can imagine Christ as the main Satanist, then, in engravings, why look at engravings of photographic similarities? By the way, did you notice that in the engraving about the battle on the bridge with the Tatars these same Tatars in helmets with crosses under the banners with crescents? and what should we start to say that the crusaders were Mongoloid Turks? the fact that the ligature on the helmet exhibited in the chamber, well, maybe the fashion was such a ligature, and just this ligature appeared in the form of a decor which few people would understand, and the exact opposite is stated that everyone will understand, give a week and I will prove to you with quotes and similar videos that Rurik is Luke Skywalker.
          1. Horde
            +1
            27 February 2013 22: 31
            Quote: tomket
            firstly, all information is provided either by excerpts from the general context or by quotes


            I suggested that you specify the places that you do not like, and you again for your own from "private to general." Let's figure out what you don't like there?
          2. BruderV
            +3
            27 February 2013 22: 59
            Quote: tomket
            these same Tatars in helmets with crosses under banners with crescents?

            So depicted Christian warriors. The crescent moon in European heraldry meant victory over Muslims. Here is the coat of arms of the Teutonic Master
            1. 0
              28 February 2013 00: 01
              but it’s just these riders who are pointing to the Tatars in the video, so what are the Mongols –Feftons ????
              1. +1
                5 March 2013 18: 41
                The coolest thing, Nosovsky-Fomenko in his three-four of his two hundred and three-hundred-page books, exactly these are the Mongols = Teutons suggest.
                They, by the way, have virtually no fiction - solid references to the source Yes .
                Their opponents - answers, except - myself, are not observed lol
            2. +1
              1 March 2013 19: 31
              Quote: BruderV
              The crescent moon in European heraldry meant victory over Muslims.


              Yah? Fomenko gives a different way what
              And the rest is simply silent about this fact.
              If this is your THEORY, share the background hi
              From a small lie a great distrust is born Yes
      2. Horde
        +3
        27 February 2013 21: 43
        Quote: tomket
        there is no real argument, evidence at the level of ren tv. Baty - dad and Mom - mother


        To study history in forums is the same as having read the encyclopedia to imagine yourself a specialist in science. To understand the weight of historical evidence, it is necessary to read the ORIGINS, only then a REAL picture of the world opens before one’s eyes.
        As one smart person said, "you are a superficial person Sasha in history, how in love it is necessary to reach a certain DEPTH ..."
        1. 0
          27 February 2013 22: 01
          As a source, I recommend reading Marco Polo's treatises, or is this also a fictional figure ????
          1. +1
            5 March 2013 18: 46
            Marco Polo's Treatises - What I Heard About Centennial Events Censused Four Hundred Years Later belay
        2. +1
          27 February 2013 22: 17
          so always Fomenkovtsy offer us in history to reach depth and Roerichites offer to comprehend the beauty of their teachings
          1. 0
            1 March 2013 19: 33
            Interestingly, some others suggest taking their word for it. winked
    3. +2
      28 February 2013 22: 17
      kvodrato,
      This is a lie with far-reaching consequences. Still hiccups to us.
    4. Che
      Che
      +1
      1 March 2013 08: 00
      kvodrato,
      Yes, there was no yoke, pro-Western stories tapped by the West to the population of Eurasia.
      1. +2
        1 March 2013 12: 39
        But what about the 300 years of the rule of the Romanovs? Why are you not a foreign yoke? The rule of the Romanovs did Russia more harm than this mythical Mongol-Tatar invasion.
        1. Che
          Che
          +1
          1 March 2013 15: 43
          Setrac,
          Yes, Petya planted liberal values ​​in Russia. You're right. Nikolasha was punished for this.
  23. ko88
    +2
    27 February 2013 21: 58
    For the muslin topic, well, then let's each put forward his own hypothesis what will happen? These false scientists must be prosecuted!
    1. wax
      +3
      28 February 2013 01: 37
      It already was: for example, the scientist Lysenko brought the false scientist Nikolai Vavilov to responsibility.
  24. +4
    27 February 2013 22: 00
    Posted by: "It is quite reasonable and advisable to support the version of the “Mongol-Tatar” invasion that will be beneficial and useful to Russia and its peoples, and not other people's inventions."
    Lepota! I suggest going further than trifles. Let us only support what is beneficial to us and what makes us beautiful. That serfdom is like us is not very. Let's review it. Well, to Babayu. Or for example, a church schism. But you never know what we still have in the bins.
    And I’m still wondering who will determine what is reasonable and appropriate, I’ll have to create some kind of state committee, which will include very competent comrades who will make us happy with their decisions.
    And further. Two quotes about covering the story:
    1. Mikhail Vasilievich Lomonosov wrote that the historiographer should be “a reliable and loyal person and swore oaths purposely so that he would never announce to anyone and not report news that is relevant to the political affairs of a critical state ... a natural Russian, so that he is not inclined in his historical writings for shpinism and ridicule. "
    2. Gerard Friedrich Miller - the historian "must appear without a fatherland, without faith, without a sovereign ... everything that a historian says must be strictly true, and he should never give rise to arousal of suspicions of flattery."
    And this fundamental debate continues ...
    1. Horde
      +5
      27 February 2013 22: 21
      Uzoliv,
      serfdom is like us not so much. Let's review it


      yes no, perhaps the fact of CASTLE RIGHT is a shameful fact of the attitude of the Romanov-Germans to the Russian people. This is a fact of historical truth, this must be known and NOT FORGOTTEN. As for the Tatar-Mongol invasion of TMN, already now there are not only questions to TI, but already quite convincing facts refuting the presence of the so-called "Mongols" in those days in Russia.
      Gerard Friedrich Miller - the historian "must appear without a fatherland, without faith, without a sovereign ... everything that a historian says must be strictly true, and he should never give rise to arousal of suspicions of flattery."
      And this fundamental debate continues ...


      by the method of INVARIANT comparison of texts, it was established that the historical works of Lomonosov were edited by Miller. The method of Invariant Comparison was developed by the parents of Academician Fomenko. So, "strictly true" of this German falsifier is another lie of Miller.
      1. wax
        0
        28 February 2013 01: 49
        The first articles on historical topics were published in the Commentaries of the Academy T.-Z. Bayer, a prominent scientist who was quite proficient in the scientific methods of his time. However, complete ignorance of the Russian language limited the range of sources available to him; as a result of this article, Bayer was not genuine research on the history of Russia. Somewhat later G.-F. Miller also began to study Russian history, but the essays on the history of Kievan Rus, published by him in the first volumes of Sammlung Russischer Geschichte, indicate that he, like Bayer, did not speak Russian at that time. The texts of the annals were translated by translators of the Academy of Sciences, among them was I.-V. A pause, in some cases making an inaccuracy in his translations. As a result of this, Miller has a number of errors that confused the questions of the initial period of Russian history.
  25. Cpa
    +4
    27 February 2013 22: 25
    You need to look for the truth in the present and fix it for posterity, preferably in marble! The past is accessible to us according to the stories of our ancestors, and that is subjective and looks like a damaged phone.
  26. +1
    28 February 2013 00: 31
    regarding miniatures from Russian chronicles. Before you is a miniature dedicated to the Trojan War, as you see the wars and banners of both the Trojans and the wars that came under the walls of the trois are no different from each other and are also identical to the images of Russian wars in other miniatures, the conclusion is, if the Greeks and Trojans do not differ from Russians, why should the Mongols look like a girlfriend?

    Second Trojan War Thumbnail

    but a miniature depicting the battle of the Persians and the Mongols, please indicate which of them is who? and why do they not look like Russian princes?

    Troy engraved in Russian chronicles
    1. 0
      28 February 2013 07: 59
      Yes, you, sir, are simply an apologist for NH Fomenko-Nosovsky!
      It was they who suggested, based on the primary sources, that Troy-Jerusalem-Constantinople-Istanbul is the same city tongue
      1. +2
        28 February 2013 08: 18
        and these are the Mongols and samurai, as you see, the Mongols in Japan do not strongly resemble Russian princes and they do not differ much from samurai, conclusion, it is unnecessary to look in miniatures for photographic authenticity
  27. wax
    +3
    28 February 2013 01: 58
    Lomonosov began collecting material for compiling the history in 1751, attracting, in contrast to T.-Z. Bayer and G.-F. Miller, not only foreign, but also Russian sources. For three years, he studied Russian chronicles and legislative acts, comparing different lists with each other, got acquainted with the then unpublished "History of Russia" by V. N. Tatishchev, where a number of sources were examined in the first volume. Lomonosov devoted much attention to ancient and Byzantine writers, and used the works of Western historians. By 1758, the first volume was ready, in 1759 it began to be published.
    Lomonosov himself suspended printing, he did not like the design he chose - links to sources, as was then customary, were placed on the sidelines, the author’s notes under the text. He decided to transfer his “philological research” to the end of the book. Secondly, the manuscript was presented to him at the Academy in 1763, but he did not manage to give the apparatus of notes. The book was published after the death of the author, with a brief introduction by Schletser; Schletser subsequently complained that this introduction was redone at the Academy. The manuscript disappeared, the printed sheets of the variant were destroyed; thus, the “philological research” of Lomonosov was lost; they have not been discovered to this day.
    “Ancient Russian History” consists of two parts: “About Russia Before Rurik” and “From the Beginning of Rurikov's Reign to the Death of Yaroslav the First”.
    From the point of view of a scientific approach to materials and historical conclusions, “Ancient Russian History” stands immeasurably higher than “Synopsis,” articles by Bayer and Miller.
    This work is now known as "Anti-Norman Theory"
    The historical views of Lomonosov were formed in a sharp struggle against Norman theory, which denied the independent development of the Russian people.
    Lomonosov devoted the first part to the question of the origin of the Russian people, proving its antiquity and the presence of its own independent culture. Lomonosov believed that the settlement of the present territory by the Slavs dates back to ancient times.
    1. +1
      28 February 2013 08: 19
      Well, these are the Mongols and Persians, again similar to each other, not too Russian princes
  28. 0
    28 February 2013 09: 15
    and this is a siege by the Mongols of Baghdad, again we see that the besieged as two drops of water are similar to the settlers. then we come to a paradoxical conclusion: either the Mongols had fantastic mimicry, became like two drops of water similar to their enemies, for tactical surprise and just confuse or it was an invasion of dark entities from behind the looking glass))))) the second version is no more delusional than the version of Fomenko)
    1. Marek Rozny
      +2
      28 February 2013 12: 15
      Quote: tomket
      either the Mongols possessed fantastic mimicry, became like two drops of water similar to their enemies, for reasons of tactical surprise and simply confuse, or it was an invasion of dark entities from behind the looking glass

      clap my hands))))
    2. +1
      28 February 2013 22: 38
      tomket,
      So where did the Mongols come from, the Mongols lived in Mongolia. And they didn’t go anywhere. Millerovsky fables are not impressive.
      1. +1
        1 March 2013 07: 06
        Genghis Khan resent ...
        1. +2
          2 March 2013 15: 09
          Parabelum,
          Traces of the Turks can be traced everywhere in Eurasia, the Mongols anywhere. Turkisms are found in Russian, and the blood is half Turkic. Forget the Mongol. It is necessary to correct the tricked out in the history of the West.
          1. Beck
            +1
            2 March 2013 16: 24
            Quote: Sandov
            Traces of the Turks can be traced everywhere in Eurasia, the Mongols anywhere. Turkisms are found in Russian, and the blood is half Turkic. Forget the Mongol. It is necessary to correct the tricked out in the history of the West.


            And here I agree with you. And I will express my assumption, but on a historical plot.

            The Turks from their ancestral homeland of the steppes of Mongolia and the Altai mountains, from the 2nd century BC began to settle on the prefecture (the Türkic-speaking Huns) - the upper Yenisei, the northern foothills of Altai, assimilating local tribes, the Indo-Aryans of Andronovo culture. Then they moved to the West in several waves. In the 1st century to Xinjian and Southeast Kazakhstan. In the 2nd century to the North of Kazakhstan and the Volga region. And in both cases, the tribes of Andronovites and Ugro-Finns assimilated. In the 6th century to Southeast Kazakhstan and Central Asia.

            And the last exodus during the time of Genghis Khan, when the penultimate Turks, Naiman tribes, Kerait and others conquered the territory of Kazakhstan and Khorezm. But now they were opposed by the Turkic population, Kipchsky, Argyns and other Turkic tribes. It was at this time that the Mongolian steppes became sparsely populated.

            Genghis Khan primarily united around himself four Turkic tribes - Borjigins, nymanov, Kereit, taichuit. And this association was given the political, collective name of Mynkol. Man is a thousand. The count is the hand. A thousand-armed people or a thousand-armed army. Then, as a result of the conquests, other tribes joined these four tribes and all assumed the political name of Mynkol. The Mongols themselves, in those days, lived beyond the Gobi Desert, in the region of present Inner Mongolia. And in those days they were called tribes xianbi. And when Genghis Khan went to China, then first the Syanbians appeared in front of him, who obeyed, joined the army and also took over the political name of the Mynkol.

            After the decline of the empire of Genghis Khan, all Turkic tribes returned to their tribal names - Naimans, Kereites, Argyns, Kipchaks. But the syanbi left themselves the changed name Mynkol - the Mongol. And later from the Gobi desert, the sparsely populated steppes of the Turk ancestral homeland - the steppes of present-day Mongolia, were gradually settled. And along with the name, over the centuries, they appropriated all the military successes of the Turks of Genghis Khan. And Genghis Khan was attributed, later to himself. Here is such a historical absurdity.

            And now the former syanbi, and now the Mongolian arats roam the steppes and look at the stone stelas with Turkic inscriptions incomprehensible to them. And they examine the knocked-out tamks of Turkic tribes on the rocks - tribal, stylistic signs. The Mongols themselves have no tamgas.

            I am Kazakh, but from the Nyman tribe. And in the 10-12 centuries my ancestors lived in the steppes of Western Mongolia and professed, along with the Kereit tribe, Nestorian-style Christianity.
            1. Cpa
              +1
              3 March 2013 19: 11
              Quote: Beck
              The Mongols themselves have no tamgas.

              This is not true, yes, the Mongolian language used Uigur writing, but they spoke their own language. Recent linguistic studies of the Japanese, suggested the contribution of the Mongolian languages ​​to their dialects (previously considered an isolated language).
              The Old Mongolian letter was developed, it was developed at the beginning of the 13 century. An inconvenient fact for the theory of Pan-Turkism, didn’t it? (See Genghis stone)
              From my own experience of communication, I will say that the Mongolian and Kalmyk languages ​​contain a lot of Sanskrit words in everyday life. Although the official version of the borrowing of mostly Buddhist names does not imply this.
              To which tribe would you refer Temuchin? I'll tell you his tribe was called "blue wolf" - one of the western Oirat tribes (not to be confused with the Turkic "ARAT")
              The personal guard of Genghis Khan consisted of torgouts (also an Oirat tribe), his first son, Jochi from the Mongolian, was unexpected.
              Subsequently, the Western Oirats united in the Dzungarian Khanate, which was not located in the territory of Inner Mongolia, as you say
              some of them moved to Siberia, where the Buryats and Tuvans now live.
              They perfectly read stone idols, because. they called the Turkic language "Buru yuektya" (language from right to left), because the letters on idols are written from right to left.
              In the 16 century, after constant skirmishes with the Manchu armies, they decided to migrate west to the lower Volga, part remained in the Xinjiang-Uygur region, part in the south of Kyrgyzstan.
              In the steppes of Mongolia, not all Mongolian tribes (only the eastern ones) were far from living there, and not all Mongolian tribes were liars and stupid pastoralists.
              Regarding the Mongolian words of Essentuki, Derbent, halam-baliam, altyn, swag, gelding, chiki - chiki, Tyumen, cheers (Sanskrit), bowl, share, ulan, doha,
              went, camel, kremlin, arbat, amba, dunduk, balamut, guard, esaul, malachai, horde, darkness, Kr
              ym, Karabakh, Adam's apple, trump card, Khan, lady, hotunok, gonfalon, corral, chumbur, outback, Tu
              la.
              In short, not a good way to exalt at the expense of others.
              ZY There are words common with the Turks, but not the fact that they are Turkic.
              1. Beck
                +1
                4 March 2013 10: 56
                Quote: KPA
                This is not true, yes the Mongolian language used Uyghur script


                Well, firstly I'm not a pan-Turkist. I consider Pantbrianism to be a utopia that does not correspond to the current state of affairs. I am talking about some absurdity, in my opinion, in history.
                And I didn’t speak above, firmly as a proven theory, I spoke presumably as a hypothesis.
                Correctly, Korean, Japanese, Mongolian languages ​​belong to the same group, just like the Slavic and Turkic languages. And the Kalmyk language is one of the dialects, dialects of the Mongolian language.
                I don't know about the "blue wolf" tribe, I know that Temuchin is from the Borjigin tribe. And Temuchin originally united the four tribes. In addition to the Borjigins, his confederation included the Naimans, Kereits and Taichuits. It was only later that other tribes of the steppe joined this core or were forced by force.
                With the personal guard, the question is confusing. In some sources it is called tullenguts, in other nukers and what ethnicity they were not exactly known.
                Tuvans are Turks. And the Buryats and Oirats just advanced into the deserted territories of present-day Mongolia and Southern Siberia when the last wave of Turks in the 13th century left it. I am a Kazakh, from the Nyman tribe. Kazakhs also live in Kazakhstan - Kereity. A small part of the Naimans and Kereites still live in western Mongolia and Xinjiang, but for some reason they speak among themselves not in Mongolian, but in Turkic. Here you have the Mongolian historical names - Esen, Gumechi, Sholay-Ubyshi. Ochirtu-Tsetsen, Tsevan-Rabdan, Galdan-Tseren. Compare them with the historical names of the environment of the all-powerful khan - Genghis (Shyngys), Subudai, Borondai, Jochi, Toluy, Guyuk. Not even a linguist can see that these names are of completely different origin.
                The current Mongols and those Mongols who came to the steppe after the decline of the Genghis Khan empire cannot read Turkic letters on stone steles in principle. Because the letters on the steles are embossed by the ancient runic Turkic writing. Why runic, because there are few curved lines and it is convenient to knock out on solid material, and of course it was read from right to left. Later, the Turkic letter, called Uyghur, was already adapted for writing and was written in columns from top to bottom and from left to right. It was this alphabet that the Mongols adopted from the Naimans. And why would the Naiman if they are the Mongols to write in the Turkic language and the Turkic (Uyghur) alphabet, Therefore, as if the Mongols could not read the runes, with all their desire.
                Kalmyks appeared on the Volga, not as a result of actions in the 18th century by Chinese troops, but as a result of campaigns of individual Oirat tribes in the 17th century. Therefore, the Kazakhs called them Kalmak - Separated. From Oirats.

                Quote: KPA
                In the steppes of Mongolia, not all Mongolian tribes (only the eastern ones) were far from living there, and not all Mongolian tribes were liars and stupid pastoralists.


                And here is a clear disrespect for the interlocutor. Fiction of his own and passing this off as an interlocutor’s words. Where I wrote that the current Mongols are liars and stupid. This is your twitch. Not so, not so good.
                1. Beck
                  0
                  4 March 2013 11: 14
                  Quote: Beck
                  And here is a clear disrespect for the interlocutor. Fiction of his own and passing this off as an interlocutor’s words. Where I wrote that the current Mongols are liars and stupid. This is your twitch. Not so, not so good.


                  Continue.

                  Quote: KPA
                  Regarding the Mongolian words of Yessentuki, Derbent, halam-baliam, altyn, swag, m
                  erin, chiki - chiki, Tyumen, cheers (Sanskrit), bowl, share, lancer, doha
                  , went, camel, kremlin, arbat, amba, dun
                  duk, balamut, guard, esaul, malachai, horde, darkness,
                  1. Cpa
                    +1
                    4 March 2013 16: 25
                    Quote: Beck
                    Where I wrote that the current Mongols are liars and stupid.

                    Quote: Beck
                    And along with the name, over the centuries, they appropriated all the military successes of the Turks of Genghis Khan.

                    is it called lied or embellished? request
                    Quote: Beck
                    And now the former syanbi, and now the Mongol arats, are wandering around the steppes and looking at the stone steles with the Turkic inscriptions incomprehensible to them. And they look at the carved tamki of the Turkic tribes on the rocks - tribal, stylistic signs.

                    How to interpret it? What do all the Türks runes read?
                    Forgive me for chauvinism.
                    1. Cpa
                      +1
                      4 March 2013 16: 58
                      Quote: Beck
                      Later, the Turkic letter, called Uyghur, was already adapted for writing

                      The Uyghur language was not a Turkic dialect, all sources say that the Uyghurs adapted their writing to write Turkic words.
                      There are many peoples whose ancestors used the runic script, but this does not mean that they will read it now.
                      The eastern Mongols took part in the campaigns of the Manchus against the Dzungar Khanate, so it was not worth generalizing. By the way, these Mongols have their own letter, it is called square, it is depicted on the coat of arms of Mongolia!
                      Borjigin this Turkic word means "wolf prince", the clan of Chinggis Khan is called Chonos (Mong) -wolf, his branch Kyok Chonos is the tribe of the blue wolf
                      Chingiz - from the word Tengiz (from Tengri - the sky in Mongolian)
                      1. Marek Rozny
                        +1
                        4 March 2013 18: 05
                        1) The Uyghur language (as well as its Old Uyghur) is a Turkic language. No historian or linguist would ever think of arguing with this. You have mixed the concept of "TürkI" and "Türkic language" in a bunch. The language "TürkI" is a literary general Türkic language. Not a single Turkic people speaks it. It was used exclusively as a Latin language in medieval Europe. It is actually the "Chagatai language". Even in the 20th century during the Second World War, the documents of the German Turkestan Legion, which consisted of Turkic prisoners of war, were written in this language.
                        2) In our side of Eurasia, the runic script was used exclusively by the Turks. And if a person has at hand a comparative table of runes and modern letters, then he can easily read any runic text. And most importantly, he will easily understand what it says, since the Turkic language over the past 1500 years (at least) has retained its main lexical base and, essno, structure. "Kumanikus Code" (1303), in which the Turkic language is written in Latin, can read and understand almost every word, even a Kazakh primary school student.
                        3) All ancient artifacts on the territory of Mongolia are Turkic. Mongolian artifacts lie on the territory of Inner Mongolia in the PRC.
                        4) Borzhigin - bori-tygin ("wolf-prince"). The title "tigin" (and "ot-tigin" / "prince of the hearth" is a title for the younger sons) - Turkism, which is found only among the Turks and relatives of Genghis Khan (Temuke-otchigin is the younger brother of Genghis Khan). Genghis Khan's clan came from a large clan "kiyat". The Kiyat clan later became a part of many steppe peoples - both Turks and Mongols. And even some representatives of the kiyats (from the Russified Murzas) became part of the Russians. The Kiyat clan was the most respected in the Chingizid empire. They, for example, did not pay any taxes. Mamai is from the Kiyat clan, for example.
                        The Glinsky family comes from the Russified kiyats. At the end of the 18th century, Pyotr Glinsky renounced the princely title. Why? A royal decree was issued stating that he had to pay tax for the princely title. The Glinsky princes came from the clan of kiyats, were Tarkhans, and they did not pay taxes anywhere, in any state. Pyotr Glinsky then said: “What kind of prince I am then Glinsky if I pay the tax. Our family is ancient and we have never paid taxes to anyone in history ”. As a result, he renounced the princely title and became a simple nobleman.
                        Regarding the origin of the "Chonos" clan, it is better for the Mongols not to remember, for all the roots of the Chonos rest on the Turks of Ashina's time ...
                        ZY the word "kyok" among the Türks means not only the color "blue", but also "heavenly / divine". There are no blue wolves, it was the Mongols who misinterpreted the Turkic concept. "Divine / heavenly wolf" is how it translates. And the Mongols turned this concept into nonsense.
                        In the same way, the Russians misguided themselves with the Black Sea. The Türks, who inhabited the steppes of the Black Sea region, called and call this huge sea "Kara tengiz", and when the Russians drove the Türks out of there, this hydronym was translated literally - "Black Sea", although the word "kara" has another meaning "great / great" ... "Kara Tengiz" - "Great Sea", "Kara Bakh" - "Big Garden", "Kara Khan" - "Great Khan", "Kara Balyk" - "Big City".
                        З.З.Ы. "Tengiz" is literally "sea" in Turkic. For the steppe people, a large reservoir seemed to be something great and invincible. The name Tengiz was very common among the Turks. However, even now this name is still found. By the way, my father's name was Mukhit ("ocean"). So there is nothing surprising in the name Tengiz. And there is no need to tie the word Tengiz to the steppe concept of Tengri (Tәңiri, to be precise).
                    2. Beck
                      0
                      4 March 2013 19: 05
                      Quote: KPA
                      How to interpret it? What do all the Türks runes read?


                      In the top commentary "ran away" the second half of the answer to your type of Mongolism in Russian. But Marek answered you in full that all the words that you brought are from Turkisms. I will add. Khabara -News. Ul is the son. The lancers are detachments of the sons of noble people, then the name of the ulna passed to the Polish light cavalry and further. Ur - Bey, Beat, the Turkic battle cry. And now try to also compare these and your other given words with the Mongolian language.

                      Quote: KPA
                      Forgive me for chauvinism.


                      Now the last one. Why do you switch to a bazaar tone - a liar, embellished, chauvinist. Passing your imaginary as mine. What do you want to swear at? Give, calmly, your arguments and counter-arguments. I may well be mistaken in the interpretation of certain historical facts, but not lie.

                      And some of your arguments do not hold water. How is it that the Uyghur language is not Turkic ??? Uighurs live in Almaty. Their language is softer in pronunciation, but 80% of it is understandable to a Kazakh and vice versa. It's like Ukrainian and Russian.

                      You twist again with the runic letter. If we take the runic alphabet with its duplication with the letters of the Kazakh language, then the runes will add up to Turkic words, but not Mongolian.
                      1. Cpa
                        -2
                        4 March 2013 20: 31
                        Quote: Beck
                        And now try to also compare these and your other given words with the Mongolian language.

                        Yes Easy:
                        Essentuki-esn tug (nine banners),
                        Derbent-Derbet (Dzungarian tribe)
                        , halam-balam-neither this nor that,
                        altyn - gold,
                        khabar-khapur (trash, old stuff, rags),
                        gelding - black (horse),
                        chiki - chiki - chik "-chik" (exactly),
                        Tyumen - tumen (ten thousand),
                        hurray - uranus (Sanskrit, Mong) uralan (kalm) (forward),
                        the cup is the same
                        share - part,
                        lancer - red,
                        doha - doh "(fur coat),
                        go - pshow (go),
                        camel - vervud (praslav, Mongolian)
                        , the kremlin - harem (to build, a fortress),
                        arbat-arban (foreman),
                        amba - tiger,
                        dunduk - donduk (name),
                        troublemaker - troublemaker,
                        guard - khara ulus (black ulus, i.e. poor yurts surrounding the settlement, sentinels were appointed from them),
                        esaul - yasa ulus (people of the law, centurions),
                        malachai - a hat with fur,
                        horde - palace,
                        darkness - from tumen,
                        angara - an gara (ran away, got out)
                        Crimea - kyrym (ditch),
                        Karabakh Har Bah (blackened),
                        Adam's apple - the same
                        trump card - khazer (owner, cool),
                        khana - wall,
                        king - daam (opposite side of the square),
                        hotunok - hotton (ancestral settlement, camp),
                        gonfalon, cornet - khorung (banner, sign, pole),
                        chumbur - through the saddle,
                        backwoods - zakha ulus (distant ulus),
                        Tula is a hare.
                      2. Marek Rozny
                        0
                        4 March 2013 22: 26
                        KPA, and you are doing Zadornovshchina in its purest form. You are corny composing an etymology.
                        these words are of TURKIC origin and have a clear etymology. and they are mentioned in Turkic texts long before their use in Mongolian documents. in addition, these words are present in the Turkic languages, and in Mongolian they have completely different analogues. do not powder your head. tomorrow you, in an attempt to prove the "Mongolism" of Genghis Khan's empire, compose, about the Mongol-Aryans, an alternative chronology and other now popular nonsense. There are no Mongolisms in the Turkic language (as well as in Russian). But in the Mongolian there is a gigantic layer of Turkisms. I do not fight for the purity of the Turkic language at all, in the Kazakh language there are a lot of Arabisms, Persisms, and now borrowings from European languages, but there are no Mongolisms at all. And this is not an attempt to somehow humiliate the Mongols, hinting at their backwardness. There are no borrowings from Chinese in Kazakh either. A small part of the ancient borrowings from their language "died" long ago, leaving not even newly formed words.
                      3. Cpa
                        0
                        5 March 2013 07: 50
                        Here are greetings from your ancestors. I will not try, I will state the facts
                      4. Marek Rozny
                        0
                        5 March 2013 09: 32
                        Quote: KPA
                        Here are greetings from your ancestors. I will not try, I will state the facts

                        and what did you mean by that?
                      5. Cpa
                        0
                        5 March 2013 12: 32
                        Quote: Marek Rozny
                        and what did you mean by that?

                        Here the Naimans write in Mongolian.
                      6. Marek Rozny
                        0
                        5 March 2013 12: 42
                        Quote: KPA
                        Here the Naimans write in Mongolian.

                        What is this stone? Where is it found, dating and transcription into modern languages?
                      7. Cpa
                        0
                        5 March 2013 16: 21
                        And here is the Uyghur letter. Turfan. Xinzyan 750g
                      8. Beck
                        +1
                        5 March 2013 13: 16
                        Quote: KPA
                        Here's greetings from your ancestors


                        What kind of stone? Where? The date is 1368.

                        By this time, most of the Naimans already lived in the steppes of Kazakhstan, they had been Turkicized for a long time using the "textbooks" and simply could not write in Mongolian.

                        Maybe it's just a Mongolian notation, written in the Uyghur alphabet in an unknown place. The inscription simply specifies that the inscription was made in Uyghur-Naiman script in Mongolian. That is, if you split the Rosette stone, then the Greek part of it can be called an Egyptian record in Greek writing.

                        And the Uyghur letter was adopted by the Khalkha-Mongols in the Chinggis and post-Chingos times.

                        I'm Naiman. Assuming that I am a Turkified Mongol. Then try to unite my family again in 15 years, as it "happened" with the entire Naiman tribe from 1221 to 1236. It won't work. This takes about 100 years and at least three generations.
                      9. Cpa
                        0
                        5 March 2013 13: 39
                        Quote: Beck
                        Then try to oiongol my family again

                        For what? If it went like this, it means that the premise was long ago, perhaps already under the Horde the Naimans professed Islam, respectively, the process of Turkization is accelerating at times. Education, prayers, rituals, etc.
                      10. Marek Rozny
                        +3
                        5 March 2013 14: 05
                        Quote: KPA
                        Already under the Horde, the Naimans professed Islam, respectively, the process of Turkization is accelerating at times. Education, prayers, rituals, etc.

                        The Naimans were also Christians, but for some reason they did not become Germanized))) during the time of the Horde, the Muslims were mainly the top, and an ordinary steppe dweller knew little about Islam until the 19th century, naively calling his Tengrianism Islam.
                        the Turks did not really know prayer in Arabic. There were practically no mullahs in the Steppe until they were sent from Tatarstan in the 19th century. everyone read prayers to God as he wanted and as he could. So the religious factor has nothing to do with it.
                      11. Beck
                        0
                        5 March 2013 15: 02
                        Quote: KPA
                        For what?


                        Of course I am not in order to become a Khalkha Mongol again. What I mean is that this nonsense about making a large and strong tribe a winner in 15 years in just 15 years is impossible, as the textbooks write. This is just nonsense. To bring one to the other. That is, the Mongols conquered Russia, and spoke Turkic. This was puzzling. So they came up with oturichivanie.

                        But with religion I have difficulties. It is known that when subordinating to Genghis Khan, the Naiman and Kereit tribes professed Nestorian Christianity. Wang Khan Kereitov even carried a cross with him, which was installed on his main yurt. Other Turkic tribes had faith in Tengri. Islam in the Golden Horde was officially and violently introduced for the nomadic part of the state in the mid-1300s. And I do not know what the Naimans professed from Genghis Khan to Uzbek Khan. They could continue to profess Christianity, but they could also convert to Tengrianism. These or those I have not met.
                      12. Cpa
                        0
                        5 March 2013 16: 16
                        About the Naiman pebble.
                        Here is a todo bichig for comparison. By the way, this is the seal of Guyuk Khan.
                      13. Beck
                        +1
                        5 March 2013 12: 59
                        Quote: KPA
                        Yes Easy:


                        I see calmed down. We communicate, but do not swear.

                        Quite some of your translations are of Mongolian origin. Indeed, for many centuries, the Turks and the Khalkha-Mongols lived side by side in the steppes of Mongolia. And naturally there was a mutual penetration of cultures and languages. But the Turks brought these words to Russia
                        and not the Khalkha Mongols.
                      14. Cpa
                        0
                        5 March 2013 13: 32
                        I’m sure about half, and I can even justify it. I can’t argue about the second half, because I don’t know who I borrowed from anyone before. I have my own theory about this, but you’ll hardly like it.
                  2. Marek Rozny
                    +1
                    4 March 2013 17: 16
                    Quote: KPA
                    Quote: KPA
                    Regarding the Mongolian words of Yessentuki, Derbent, halam-baliam, altyn, swag, m





                    erin, chiki - chiki, Tyumen, cheers (Sanskrit), bowl, share, lancer, doha





                    , went, camel, kremlin, arbat, amba, dun
                    duk, balamut, guard, esaul, malachai, horde, darkness,


                    KPA,
                    these are Turkisms. words with a clear Turkic etymology. okay Russians do not understand the difference between our languages, but you, as I believe, are a representative of the Mongolian people. and you know perfectly well that these words are not of "Mongolian" but of Turkic origin. and in Mongolian languages ​​they are borrowings. the layer of such words in Mongolian is not just large, it is a giant part of the Mongolian language.
                    in addition, some of the words are so ancient that it is impossible to imagine etymology.
                    ZY Regarding the word "guard" I cannot help but restrain myself. I am from the subgenus "Garauyl" (genus Argyn), this word is translated as "guard, guardsman". Formed from: "karau" - to look, watch, watch, watch; "Karauy" - "supervision / supervision". And "karauyl" literally literally means "the one who looks after / watches / watches".
      2. +1
        1 March 2013 08: 14
        Remember that originally the term "kamikaze" - the wind of the gods was applied to the hurricane that sank the Mongolian fleet off the coast of Japan, Miller made his way to Japan and edited all the books and legends there?
        1. Cpa
          +3
          3 March 2013 20: 09
          Dear, tomket, most people don’t know this fact that if it weren’t for the storm, there would be no Nipon empire. They are also silent about the Mongol dynasty in China. lol .And Tengrianism went from them. fellow For some reason, the "stupid cattlemen" from Mongolia had three types of writing. And the Kipchaks fought with themselves for independence request .And the Mongols then rewrote the whole story for themselves wassat I wonder how they did it, being illiterate pastoralists. belay
          1. Marek Rozny
            +1
            4 March 2013 17: 21
            Tengrianism among the Turks and Tengrianism among the Mongols are two different things. the Turks have one Tengri, and the Mongols have a lot of Tengri.
            1. Cpa
              +1
              4 March 2013 18: 43
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              ) The Uyghur language (as well as its Old Uigur language) is the Turkic language.

              The same thing if I say that the Slavic language is Russian.
              I think it is worth remembering what the pra-Altai language and its Orkhon-Yenisei script are! (Seven language families, including Mongolian.
              Uyghur writing is an adapted Sogdian language (Semitic branch), Kazakhs write in Cyrillic, but they speak Turkic.
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              You, as I believe, are a representative of the Mongolian people.

              I am a representative of the human people, there is a lot of blood in me, but I consider myself a Russian! I just don’t like it when someone proves that he is more equal than the others! stop
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              the Turks have one Tengri, and the Mongols have a bunch of Tengri

              The Mongols Tengri - the sky which has nine levels, unless of course it is interesting to you, and the gods of the Mongols - Burkhan (Burkh). Something like this hi
              1. Marek Rozny
                +1
                4 March 2013 22: 44
                What does the ancient Altai linguistics have to do with it? The Turkic language is the language spoken by a Turk, regardless of its nationality. Both the Bashkir, the Kazakh, and the Kirghiz, and the Yakut understand each other and understand the ancient texts. The common Turkic language "TürkI" was easily perceived by all Türks and was used in literature, science and mass media of the 20th century. It is Slavs or Finno-Ugric people who do not understand each other, or hardly understand each other, and the Turks, with their rigidly structured agglutinative language, which is weakly subject to linguistic changes, in fact speak the same language, albeit with significant regional differences.
                The Orkhon-Yenisei writing is Turkic and there is no need to invent and attribute anything to the Mongols.
                I don’t have to tell anything about Tengrianism. And even more so, to hint that the Türks slammed something about this among the Mongols.
                Even if we assume that Genghis Khan and his army consisted of 100% Mongols, then by the time of his birth, the Turks had already been in love with fire and sword throughout Eurasia for 1000 years, having familiarized themselves with the Roman, Han, and Muslim worlds. What could a Turk borrow from a Mongol in that era? Nothing. The diffusion of cultures between us could be only in the dense antiquity, and from the first centuries after R.Kh. The Türks had nothing to take from the proto-Mongols, but the Mongols adopted from the Türks in different ways. Even the ethnonym "Khalkha" is also Turkic. "Kalkan" is "shield" in Turkic, and the word "Khalkha" with the same meaning in the Mongolian language is simply a borrowing.
                1. Cpa
                  0
                  5 March 2013 07: 56
                  Here is another instance.
                  1. Marek Rozny
                    +1
                    5 March 2013 09: 33
                    Quote: KPA
                    Here is another instance.

                    what is written there?
                    1. Cpa
                      0
                      5 March 2013 12: 22
                      Quote: Marek Rozny
                      what is written there?
                      laughing
                      So the horde seemed to write in Turkic, in your opinion. I see Old Mongolian.
                      1. Marek Rozny
                        +2
                        5 March 2013 12: 47
                        Quote: KPA
                        So the horde seemed to write in Turkic, in your opinion. I see Old Mongolian.

                        KPA, do not give out private as common. It has already been said a hundred times that the empire wrote in many languages. The scribes were multilingual, and the population was ethnically motley. There are documents in Old Mongolian, Chinese, and Farsi. Only they were locally restricted. The fact that they wrote in Moldavian SSR in Moldavian does not mean that they wrote in Moldavian throughout the Soviet Union.
                      2. Beck
                        0
                        5 March 2013 14: 28
                        Quote: KPA
                        So the horde seemed to write in Turkic, in your opinion. I see Old Mongolian.


                        Do you speak Old Mongolian? Read. what is written.

                        I see one thing - the Uyghur (Turkic) letter. But what language is written is unknown. You speak the old Mongolian language, and maybe the Turkic language. After all, both this and this language used the same Uigur letter. So, it’s simply not possible to determine which language it is written in because it is not possible to provide it, unless you speak the Old Mongolian language. I don’t even know the alphabet itself.

                        In general, the history of the Turks and Syanbi in the territory of modern Mongolia was closely intertwined and the interpenetrations were extensive. And they beat each other and made peace treaties. At one time others intensified at one time. Together they formed independent kingdoms in the conquered territories of Northern China. In the second century, the Syanbi of Tyanshihai stole part of the Turkic-speaking Huns to Northern Kazakhstan, from where the Huns under the name of the Huns went to Europe in the 4th century. In the 6th century, the Türks created the Türkic Ugvnat with a core in Mongolia. Etc. Much of the past was forgotten, much intertwined. Now how can we make out the dark places.

                        One thing is clear to me. The Turks came to Russia in the 13th century.
                      3. Cpa
                        0
                        5 March 2013 15: 19
                        I understand what they say, you own it said loudly, but I’ll try to explain why I’m sure it’s Mongolian. I’ll only open the dictionary.
                        As for the tribes, why do you only write about the syanbi (Khalkh), there are still Western Mongols of at least six tribes that entered the horde. The Syanbi lived with the Chinese side by side and most likely did not enter the horde at the initial stage, but only after Khurultai.
                      4. Cpa
                        0
                        5 March 2013 16: 06
                        The whole manuscript consists of 25 fragments, of which 19 contain text on both sides, and six are written on only one side. The Mongolian text contains only six fragments (three fragments [1] are shown in the figures), and the rest form the Uyghur part of the manuscript.
                        Translations of fragments.

                        XIXa:
                        1. Being taken away by the former ruler and
                        2. Reassembled, will you be taken child
                        3.my Divine ruler
                        4. When ... you reach, (under the threshold
                        5. Fall! Under the threshold
                        6.upal) ...

                        XIXb
                        1. ... and why
                        2.Leave? To the darkened
                        3 ... to the master ... and
                        4. Coming, will you be taken, child
                        5.my Worthy and beautiful gyrfalcon!

                        XXIб
                        1. (You will be taken, child
                        2.my). Caring ruler
                        3. With determination when you reach
                        4.under the (gate) fall!
                        5. Said he fell under (the gate).
                        6. Why look and see? Watching ...
                      5. Cpa
                        0
                        5 March 2013 16: 11
                        Manuscript with causal materials in the Hermitage.
                      6. Beck
                        +2
                        5 March 2013 19: 05
                        Quote: KPA
                        As for the tribes, why are you talking only about syanbi (Khalkh)


                        Yes, I remembered. When the Syanbi Tyanshihai with his army stole part of the Huns to the north of Kazakhstan. (Another part already lived in southeast Kazakhstan and in Xinjiang, the third part somewhere on the border of Tibet and China). So at this time, almost all historical documents are called Tyanshikhaya and its people are Mongols. Although at that time there was no such thing. Syanbi are simply the ancestors of the Khalkha-Mongols. And the researchers do not bother and that it is clear that the word syanbi is replaced by the word Mongol. To specialists it is clear and so. But we are ordinary readers and are misleading.
                      7. Cpa
                        0
                        6 March 2013 10: 52
                        This is a very useful clarification! hi
                      8. Cpa
                        0
                        5 March 2013 15: 48
                        Quote: Beck
                        You speak the old Mongolian language, and maybe the Turkic language

                        By the first quarter of the XIV century. The manuscript, made on birch bark, contains a unique specimen of ancient Mongolian folklore. She was found on the banks of the Volga in the scribe's burial, together with an inkwell, a bronze pen and a silver ring. http://www.hermitagemuseum.org
                        This is even more reliable than my modest knowledge of Mongolian. hi
                        In 1930, on the left bank of the Volga, almost opposite Uvek, near the village of Ternovka (Podgorny), on the territory of the Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic of Volga Germans, collective farmers digging a foundation pit for a silo pit found a birch bark box in the ground containing a small manuscript written on birch bark . The manuscript was transferred by collective farmers to the republican museum in the city of Pokrovsk (from the 1931 of the year - the city of Engels), from where it was sent to the exhibition at the State Hermitage in Leningrad.

                        Subsequently, an archaeological survey of this area discovered the remains of the Golden Horde settlement there. It was also established that the manuscript was extracted from a burial dating from the 14th – 15th centuries.

                        Upon receipt of the manuscript in the State Hermitage, its restoration was undertaken, consisting in cleaning it from the ground, straightening the warped and clumped sheets and sealing it into celluloid. The photographs taken from the manuscript were transferred to specialists to determine the language in which it was written. Based on the fact that the manuscript was written in Uyghur script, it was a priori identified by the staff of the State Hermitage Museum as Uyghur. However, the Turkologists who saw the manuscript could detect Uyghur words only in some fragments, while a significant part of the manuscript, and the best preserved one, was recognized by them not as Uyghur. After processing the text, it was found that a significant part of it contains Mongolian text.

                        This find is of great interest, for the first part of the manuscript belongs to the earliest monuments of the Mongolian script, and besides, it was discovered in the Volga region, that is, on the territory of the Golden Horde, being the first find of this kind.

                        The manuscript was completely read and translated, as it turned out that the text of the manuscript contains verses. This somewhat facilitated the task of decryption, since, based on the laws of alliteration, parallelism, etc., it was possible to insert a number of lines into damaged parts of the text without too much difficulty.

                        The whole manuscript consists of 25 fragments, of which 19 contain text on both sides, and six are written on only one side. The Mongolian text contains only six fragments (three fragments [1] are shown in the figures), and the rest form the Uyghur part of the manuscript.
                      9. Cpa
                        0
                        5 March 2013 16: 13
                        Another fragment.
                      10. Marek Rozny
                        +1
                        5 March 2013 18: 16
                        KPA, I personally am already starting to get tired of this conversation. You have half-fragments of phrases. They attached a photo of the stone, but did not say anything about it - what kind of stone where it was found is a transcription into a modern language, a translation into Russian. With such a Makar, I can say that in the photo there is a German inscription made in other letters.
                        Regarding the Mongolian verses found in the Volga region - what does this prove ??? This is an insignificant grain in the sea of ​​Turkic texts. We will never know how this artifact came to be on the Volga, but given that objects from Arabia, Western Europe and China are found on the Volga, there is nothing to be surprised at all. Maybe this manuscript belonged to a Turkic-Uyghur official who previously worked among the Khalkha-Mongols? Or is it a gift from Oirat, sent from the depths of Inner Mongolia to some person in Bulgaria? What does this manuscript prove? We are discussing one thing, and you cling to any document in Mongolian as supposedly proof that the Mongols ruled the Horde. On one of your Mongolian manuscripts I can bring hundreds of Turkic manuscripts of the Horde of that time. And not only poems, but also historical documents, annals, letters, scientific treatises, diplomatic documents, dictionaries, etc.
                        I say again, Mongolian writing was used locally. Cases when Mongolian writings went beyond the residence of the Khalkha tribes are rare and do not play any special role.
                      11. Cpa
                        0
                        6 March 2013 10: 18
                        Do not you think that you are overreaching, tired laughing , I brought a mountain of arguments, I shoveled a lot of literature, there is still much left, you haven’t laid out just one Turkic text from the time of Genghis Khan, only dubious arguments. I don’t have to prove anything to you, you don’t want new knowledge - your problems. Wear with your ambition further. request
                      12. Cpa
                        0
                        5 March 2013 16: 03
                        Quote: Beck
                        But what language is written is unknown.

                        In 1930, on the left bank of the Volga, almost opposite Uvek, near the village of Ternovka (Podgorny), on the territory of the Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic of Volga Germans, collective farmers digging a foundation pit for a silo pit found a birch bark box in the ground containing a small manuscript written on birch bark . The manuscript was transferred by collective farmers to the republican museum in the city of Pokrovsk (from the 1931 of the year - the city of Engels), from where it was sent to the exhibition at the State Hermitage in Leningrad.

                        Subsequently, an archaeological survey of this area discovered the remains of the Golden Horde settlement there. It was also established that the manuscript was extracted from a burial dating from the 14th – 15th centuries.

                        Upon receipt of the manuscript in the State Hermitage, its restoration was undertaken, consisting in cleaning it from the ground, straightening the warped and clumped sheets and sealing it into celluloid. The photographs taken from the manuscript were transferred to specialists to determine the language in which it was written. Based on the fact that the manuscript was written in Uyghur script, it was a priori identified by the staff of the State Hermitage Museum as Uyghur. However, the Turkologists who saw the manuscript could detect Uyghur words only in some fragments, while a significant part of the manuscript, and the best preserved one, was recognized by them not as Uyghur. After processing the text, it was found that a significant part of it contains Mongolian text.

                        This find is of great interest, for the first part of the manuscript belongs to the earliest monuments of the Mongolian script, and besides, it was discovered in the Volga region, that is, on the territory of the Golden Horde, being the first find of this kind.

                        The manuscript was completely read and translated, as it turned out that the text of the manuscript contains verses. This somewhat facilitated the task of decryption, since, based on the laws of alliteration, parallelism, etc., it was possible to insert a number of lines into damaged parts of the text without too much difficulty.
                2. Cpa
                  -1
                  5 March 2013 08: 18
                  Quote: Marek Rozny
                  Even assuming that Genghis Khan and his army on 100% consisted of Mongols

                  I did not state this.
                  According to the testimony of Guillaume de Rubruc (1256): “In the real land of the Mongols, where the court of Chinggis is located, there was not a single city. The only city of Karakorum has two quarters, one is a Saracen, in which there is a bazaar, and many merchants flock there because of the court, which is constantly near it, and because of the abundance of ambassadors; another quarter of the Cathais, who are all artisans. Outside these quarters are large palaces owned by the court secretaries. There are twelve idols of various nations, two mosques in which the law of Mohammed is proclaimed, and one Christian church on the edge of the city. The city is surrounded by a clay wall and has 4 gates "
                  As you can see, the horde is diverse.
                  1. Marek Rozny
                    0
                    5 March 2013 09: 41
                    Toregene (Turakina) - merkit. This genus is part of the Kazakh Naiman and Kazakh Kerei. In addition, other Türks (Tuvans and Teleuts) have the genus Merkit. The Mongols themselves do not have this kind at all, only the Buryats and Kalmyks have small Merkit inclusions.
                    The origin of the Merkits is considered to be Turkic in the West. In Russia and Mongolia - Mongolian. The historical exchanges and place names associated with the Merkits are Turkic.
                    1. Cpa
                      0
                      5 March 2013 12: 31
                      Quote: Marek Rozny
                      Toregene (Turakina) - merkit.

                      You may be right, but on a coin he calls himself a Mongol. request
                      I didn’t add anything from myself.
                      1. Marek Rozny
                        +1
                        5 March 2013 12: 54
                        Because at that time the Türks called themselves Mongols (Mynkol, Mngol, Mungal, Mughal). And they used this name as a state ethnonym until the 17th century (Mogulistan, Mogulia). No Khalkha was there. Only the Turks. Moreover, until the 20th century, not a single Mongolian people called themselves Mongols and did not create states with this name. But it is strange that the Türks openly called themselves Mongols and created all sorts of mogulistan.
                      2. Beck
                        +2
                        5 March 2013 13: 33
                        Quote: KPA
                        You may be right, but on a coin calls himself a Mongol


                        So our whole fuss broke out precisely because we consider the word Mongol, in those days, not a pure ethnonym, but a political ethnonym for the political union of the Genghis Khan tribes. And after his death, most of the tribes returned to their former anonyms - Nimans, Kereites, Jalirs and others. And the Syanbi tribes left this common name to themselves and became no longer Syanbi, but hulk-Mongols. And there was a confusion when all the Yurk tribes living in their ancestral homeland in the steppes of Mongolia take for the Khalkha-Mongols.

                        Example. Rusichs called the entire conglomerate of Turkic tribes of Batukhan Tatars, in their annals there are no mention of the Mongols. This is a political anonym and also switched to the Volga Bulgars (Kazan). After the fall of the Golden Horde, all tribes returned to their old ethnonyms, Naimans, Kyypchaks and others. And behind the Volga boogal remains - Tatars. If we take the underdevelopment of historical science of the 14-16th centuries, then it is quite possible to associate Batu Khan’s campaigns in Poland and Hungary exclusively and only for the Tatars of Kazan. And to build the pedigree of Batukhan through the Tatars of the Volga region to the Volga Bulgars and further to the protobulgars of Khan Asparuh.
                      3. Cpa
                        0
                        5 March 2013 13: 51
                        Quote: Beck
                        So our whole fuss broke out precisely because we consider the word Mongol, in those days, not a pure ethnonym

                        I agree, but not quite. The cheese-bor began after your assumption that the Mongol tribes had nothing to do with the horde and appropriated the glory of the Türks. I mean, all the Mongol-speaking tribes were indignant because they were part of the Genghis Khan Horde. not to the Golden Horde. And then it is a slope to think that these were the Western Mongols, and not the Syanbi.
                        Syanbi, on the contrary, attacked the Dzungar Khanate together with the Manchus.
                      4. Beck
                        +1
                        5 March 2013 15: 25
                        Quote: KPA
                        .Syr - Bor began after your assumption that the Mongol tribes had nothing to do with the horde and appropriated the glory of the Türks.


                        Well, not so much excited, not so put it. And without the Syanbi living in Mongolia, side by side with the Turks, the historical picture would not have looked complete. But the bulk of the xianbi, in my opinion, by that time lived in Inner Mongolia and were vassals of China. And when Genghis Khan, in a campaign to China crossed the Gobi desert, then, according to all Chinese instructions, they should have been met by the syanbi. But either through diplomacy, or even how these syanbi joined the army of Genghis Khan and jointly broke into North China. So I take my words back. But, the valor and glory of the nomadic peoples of the steppe remains.
                      5. Cpa
                        0
                        5 March 2013 16: 28
                        Of course it remains, shocked the universe.
                        Yes
                        If interested, I can state my theory about Turkization?
                      6. Beck
                        +1
                        5 March 2013 19: 14
                        Quote: KPA
                        If interested, I can state my theory about Turkization?


                        So spell it out. That's what we communicate with. Maybe I’ll accept and what I won’t, but I won’t swear.
                      7. Cpa
                        0
                        6 March 2013 10: 40
                        I believe that at the time of Genghis Khan, the horde was heterogeneous in languages, and before it, there was a certain set of common, common Old Altai words that everyone understood, but otherwise each tribe spoke its own language, Kyrgyz, Kipchaks, Oghuz, etc. . in Turkic, due to the influence of the Khagans and Khorezm, and Oirats, Khalkhs, Buryats in the Mughal, due to the influence of Manchuria.
                        Here is a map at the time of the death of Genghis Khan, on it (purely my opinion) where the pink color was dominated by the Mongol tribes, where the yellow-Turkic, taking into account the separation of the Golden Horde and movement to Russia, the Turkic tribes mixed with the Mughal tribes in the Volga Valley, Slavic blood was added and the present modern Tatar people were brazed. Green (marshy) on the map indicates the place of concentration of the ancient Mongolian cities and the beginning of the campaigns of Genghis Khan.
                        Z.Y. I claim the authorship of the idea! laughing
                      8. Beck
                        0
                        6 March 2013 10: 48
                        Quote: KPA
                        where pink color, Mongol tribes prevailed, where yellow-Turkic, taking into account the separation of the Golden Horde


                        Repeat. Maybe I misunderstood or you made a typo. Yellow is the Turki? Pink is the Mongols? This is true? Only after clarification can I say something.
                      9. Cpa
                        0
                        6 March 2013 11: 04
                        Everyone understood correctly, the yellow territory is the land where the BASIC hordes were composed by the Türks, the pink territory is the land where the BASIC hordes were composed of the Mongols. This is only at the time of Genghis Khan's death. The picture has changed, but this pattern is an ethnic basis from which I can confidently and reasonedly push off.
                      10. Beck
                        +1
                        6 March 2013 13: 04
                        Quote: KPA
                        All is correct


                        Yeah For the first time I see such an interpretation. You can’t say right away. I’ll start from afar, without going into details, generally .. Languages ​​cannot form suddenly. It's just that scientists from some time begin to track them. Turkic-speaking Huns in Chinese sources appear somewhere from 822 BC. In 209 BC the leader of the Huns Mode received the title Sengir - the Highest, in Chinese sources it was designated as shanyu. And since this year, the Huns have been tearing China for two centuries, by the way with the Tabchaks of the Manchu group and the Syanbi. But there were many Chinese, flattery and tricks even more, the Huns were tired for two centuries. The feuds began. And the Huns were divided in two. Here is a rough map of the territory of the Huns in white. To the east and southeast of the white territory of the tobacco and the syanbi.
                      11. Beck
                        0
                        6 March 2013 13: 45
                        Quote: KPA
                        You got it right, yellow

                        Downstairs, he began to answer yes, something went wrong. I will answer briefly. I would swap colors. And the pink color would have placed only on the territory of Mongolia, and even not on the whole. Excluding the south. There it is up to you.
                      12. Cpa
                        +1
                        6 March 2013 15: 17
                        You know, I understand. No matter how many facts I have, I can’t prove anything to you, because for yourself you have already decided everything, and for me a working version.
                        However, thank you, two days of persistent study of the works of archaeologists, only convinced me that I am on the right path. What story you will teach descendants is also your business, but also responsibility. I should have stopped earlier, one Kalmyk woman has already said: " Are you a Mongol? If there is no one among them to protect the past of the Dzungars, then this is their problem. Let them figure out who is cooler than Derbets or Torgoods! When they come to their senses it will be too late! "She was completely right, I will save my work for grateful listeners.
                      13. Beck
                        0
                        6 March 2013 17: 14
                        Quote: KPA
                        You know, I understand. No matter how many facts I have, I can’t prove anything to you, because for yourself you have already decided everything, and for me a working version.


                        And why be offended. You have facts of accepted history. I have inconsistencies between these facts to each other. Each remained his own. This is very close. Some put forward one telorium, others another. The scientific world, for example, splits into parts in determining which language a particular people spoke.

                        And with grateful listeners, it’s only oil for your opinion.
                      14. Cpa
                        0
                        6 March 2013 17: 30
                        Something I didn’t see from you. I proved that Chigizhan is a Mongol.
                        I was not offended, but made conclusions. When I read "There is already your business"
                        request Same to you.
                        So they would say that scientists are not an authority for you, they would be engaged in excavations themselves.
                      15. Beck
                        0
                        6 March 2013 18: 08
                        Quote: KPA
                        Something I didn’t see from you. I proved that Chigizhan is a Mongol.


                        I have a doubt about that. Maybe a Mongol, but maybe not. We will not repeat.

                        I am sure of the other. Batu Khan went to Russia with the Turkic army. And the Naiman were Turks. But the people can’t take charge in 15 years.

                        Yet.
  29. 0
    1 March 2013 01: 42
    It’s good that all of this is being discussed here and now.
    It will be worse if the New History is again written under the ALIEN dictation ...
  30. Xay
    Xay
    +1
    1 March 2013 16: 27
    Good article. Yes, a lot of interesting things, but a lot of things not clear.
    The meaning is one to take a look at a new one, and honestly it is necessary.
  31. Cpa
    +1
    4 March 2013 19: 03
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    Mongolian artifacts lie on the territory of Inner Mongolia in the PRC.
    bully
    Marek, read about Genghis stone, for example.
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    this is the Mongols misinterpreted
    belay
    Everyone interprets as he likes best, but I want to remind all the vain Genghisides that, in addition to the great heritage, the descendants get all the sins of a great kind, especially those who vehemently defend their right to such an inheritance.
    Now let the Turks bear responsibility for the Genghis Khan clan, see Heaven, they really want it!
    ZY I read some of Klyashtorny’s works on Beck’s advice, he’s not as categorical in his judgments as his apologists on this site. request
    1. Beck
      +1
      4 March 2013 19: 50
      Quote: KPA
      Marek, read about Genghis stone, for example.


      Here is the Chinggis stone in my constructions sticks out inexplicably. I can’t say anything. The stone is presumably dated 1224 or 1225. I can say the following. The very date of the inscription on the stone is not. And such an accuracy of dating, in my opinion, comes from the date of the event that describes the inscription from other sources. For example, one of the translations - "When Genghis Khan, after the invasion of the people by the Sartagul (Khorezmians), returned, and people of all Mongolian generations gathered in Buga-Suchigai, Isunke (Yesungu) received three hundred and thirty-five Khondogor warriors as his inheritance."
      So the date of this event was known from other documents, according to this, they investigated and suggest that the recording was made in 1224. But in fact, it could be applied later, as a memory of the past. Something like this, or maybe not.

      Quote: KPA
      I read some works of Klyashtorny on the advice of Beck, he is not as categorical in judgment as his apologists on this site


      But I read other historical works and brought it all into my understanding.
    2. Marek Rozny
      +1
      4 March 2013 22: 49
      where does the Genghis stone? what is it in the territory of Mongolia? Mongolia is our ancestral home. And the Mongols appeared there only after Genghis Khan brought the last Türks out of there. Then the Chinese ousted the current Khalkha to present-day Mongolia. Moreover, the bulk of the Mongols remained in Inner Mongolia in the PRC.
      1. Cpa
        0
        5 March 2013 07: 52
        Read the works of Academician S. Kiselyov on the ancient Mongolian cities.
        1. Cpa
          +1
          5 March 2013 08: 22
          There are facts of the presentation of the orders of the Horde Khagans in a square Mongolian letter, a hundred years after Genghis Khan. If I need to rummage and find it. Even without Sanskrit and Aryans I can do it.
          1. Marek Rozny
            +1
            5 March 2013 09: 48
            for the Mongols they wrote in Mongolian, for the Chinese - in Chinese.
            1. Cpa
              0
              5 March 2013 13: 27
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              for the Mongols they wrote in Mongolian, for the Chinese - in Chinese.

              During the time of Genghis Khan, the Tibetan lama Zaya Pandita (oirat) based on the Old Uigur script and the Tibetan script created the Todo Bichig script for universal communication in the Horde, when the descendants and allies of Juchi separated and founded the Golden Horde in the Middle Kingdom (the name of the steppes) Emperor of the Mongolian dynasty ordered to create a universal official language for the entire Chinese empire and understandable to the peoples of the steppes. The Tibetan scientist Pagba Lama created a square letter based on Mongolian, Chinese and Tibetan.
              1. Marek Rozny
                +2
                5 March 2013 14: 07
                tried to invent a universal language in every era.
            2. Beck
              +1
              5 March 2013 19: 21
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              for the Mongols they wrote in Mongolian, for the Chinese - in Chinese


              In the Golden Horde, as far as I know, labels were written in Turkic with an identical translation into the recipient's language.
        2. Marek Rozny
          +2
          5 March 2013 09: 47
          Quote: KPA
          Read the works of Academician S. Kiselyov on the ancient Mongolian cities.

          Doesn't it bother you that Kiselev studied the "ancient Mongolian" cities that were called ... in Türkic? Karakorum and Kara-Balgas.

          Har balgas or Karabalgasun ("black city") - the ancient capital of the Uyghur Kaganate in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries, also called Ordu-balyk ("capital city").
          Karakorum - at present - the city, the center of the somon Kharkhorin aimak Uverhangay of Mongolia. The name goes back to the Turkic toponym of the surrounding mountains "Karakorum" (lit. "Black stones", "pile of black stones")

          What did the Mongols not bother to name these cities in their own language?
          1. Cpa
            0
            5 March 2013 12: 42
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            Har-Balgas or Karabalgasun ("black city") - the ancient capital of the Uyghur Kaganate

            Quite right, only this name of the excavation area, the Mongolian city a few kilometers away gave the name Cholin from the Chinese annals. So this is Karakoram only an assumption, very controversial. I also disagree with it, I think Karahorum was in the Syr Darya region, however, there are instructions in chronicles that there was a second city with that name in Mongolia.
            The name Karakorum is translated as "scree" "row of rocks" in all languages ​​of the great steppe.
            Kiselev found four more old Mongolian cities besides this!
            1. Marek Rozny
              0
              5 March 2013 14: 09
              Quote: KPA
              Kiselev found four more old Mongolian cities besides this!

              where were they located and what were they called?
              1. Cpa
                0
                5 March 2013 14: 25
                In the Altai region, Buryatia, the Mongolian Altai, near Lake Baikal, the western Mongols are shorter from the north of Mongolia. laughing They are too lazy to look for names, there are no books on the Internet, only in the library. But if necessary, they should be in the articles of the academician.
                1. Marek Rozny
                  +1
                  5 March 2013 18: 02
                  KPA, I’m talking about the territory of present-day Mongolia, and you stubbornly turn it into other lands.
                  1. Cpa
                    0
                    6 March 2013 11: 53
                    Quote: Marek Rozny
                    I’m talking about the territory of present-day Mongolia, and you stubbornly turn it into other lands.

                    The Mongolian Altai is also the current mogul, at least about Kholin, read what you found there, and then reproach me.
                2. Beck
                  +1
                  5 March 2013 19: 24
                  Quote: KPA
                  near Baikal


                  By the way. Baikal is the transformed Turkic Baikol - the Rich Lake. So somehow.
      2. Cpa
        0
        5 March 2013 12: 55
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        Mongolia is our ancestral home

        Here you are right, but with a reservation, the central main part, the Mongolian Altai and Chinese Mongolia are the birthplace of various Mongol tribes. Khalkha, in my opinion, is the Syanbi, then they also lived inside Mongolia, displacing the Xiongnu in 2 T. BC, then the Turks returned to their homeland, and the Xianbi is closer to the Chinese tribes. The Chinese ranked the Xianbi among the Xiongnu peoples, but this is not accurate data. By the way, "Xianbi" in Mongolian means "I am good."
      3. Beck
        0
        5 March 2013 19: 19
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        what is it in the territory of Mongolia?


        But this I did not take into account.
  32. i.xxx-1971
    0
    5 March 2013 01: 26
    in Nosovsky and Fomenko, the hypothesis has a fundamental basis, logical and meaningful. All other hypotheses do not stand up to criticism: it is so obvious that only a clinical idiot or someone who benefits from not understanding can not understand this. I studied in a Soviet school and never understood: why did one hundred thousand people carry hundred-ton blocks of hundred years? Why did people fight with sticks, spears and swords for several tens of thousands of years, and then for a few centuries invented a machine gun and a nuclear warhead? Why do the Tatars and Russians in the pictures in the history textbook not differ at all? Why do the borders of ancient Rome, the empire of the Macedonian and Arab caliphate coincide? The history teacher could not explain to me, but Fomenko and Nosovsky could. It is a pity that the PEPSI generation is not interested in all this.
  33. Cpa
    -1
    5 March 2013 08: 37
    Quote: Marek Rozny
    I don’t have to tell anything about Tengrianism.

    It is hard to explain or tell a person if he does not believe in it.
    Here is the Horde star map of the 14 century.
    1. Marek Rozny
      0
      5 March 2013 09: 52
      KPA, and why was the star map picture given? Did I doubt that the steppe peoples (including the Mongols) could orient themselves by the stars? Why is she here? Is that proof of what?
      1. Cpa
        0
        5 March 2013 12: 28
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        KPA, and why was the star map picture given?

        Pay attention to the date of the 14 century, for a hundred years the Golden Horde has ruled, but the inscription is in Mongolian.
        1. Marek Rozny
          +1
          5 March 2013 12: 55
          I am already tired of writing to you. local languages ​​and scripts were used locally. Russians at that time wrote in Russian, and the Persians in Farsi. but they were all in one state.
        2. Beck
          +1
          5 March 2013 13: 45
          Quote: KPA
          Pay attention to the date of the 14 century, for a hundred years the Golden Horde has ruled, but the inscription is in Mongolian.


          This is not an argument. The argument must be confirmed. I agree that the Turks and the Mongols could orient themselves by the stars, but they could not create star maps with the designation of sectors and grading. To draw a picture with the image of Big Medviditsa could and no more. Especially in the 14th century.

          Because of this, why is this card Ordynsky? Yes, even the 14th century? Such a map could come from China or Europe, and the inscription could be made in the 17th century, or in the 16th century, or 18th century. In soma of Mongolia, already a Khalkha-Mongol.

          There is none of this. And I think this is not an argument that in the 14th century the Horde wrote in Mongolian. Then they wrote in the Turkic Uighur alphabet.
          1. Cpa
            0
            5 March 2013 14: 00
            Quote: Beck
            I agree that the Turks and the Mongols could orient themselves by the stars, but they could not create star maps with the designation of sectors and grading
            No.
            There were already such cards in Khorezm, so they could be in the horde. I will find details on the map.
            1. Cpa
              0
              5 March 2013 15: 04
              Quote: Beck
              The argument must be confirmed.

              In the ancient Mongolian state of Khitan, as it became known from ancient chronicles, they understood astronomical and mathematical sciences, there even existed an official position “Official - Warden of Heavenly Time”. These people wore hats with images of twelve animals.

              The knowledge of the field of astronomy held by scientists of ancient states that once existed on the present territory of the MPR was most likely transferred to the Mongolian state.

              The astronomical map stored in the State Public Library testifies to the successes of our ancestors in this area. It is composed by the method of stereographic projection, which is one of the modern methods of compiling maps of the starry sky. According to preliminary studies, scientists attribute it to the XIII-XIV century. It depicts 12 signs of the Zodiac, 12 months of the year, 24 season, 28 stars located along the "yellow path" (the path of solar movement). (C)
              B. GONCHIGDORGE, Candidate of Technical Sciences.
              1. Beck
                +1
                5 March 2013 15: 34
                I agree. I have nothing against this. In addition, so that someone else would read what is written there.
  34. Cpa
    0
    5 March 2013 13: 02
    And here is Esen-tug (essentuki)! fellow
    1. Beck
      +2
      5 March 2013 15: 44
      But about banners, tugs, bunchuk, this, in my opinion, is a continuous mutual exchange. Khan Abu al-Khair also had either seven banners, or seven bunchuk. In one of the battles with the jungars, which the Kazakh khan lost, the jungars chopped up all seven. After that, Abu = al-Khair never raised banners.
      1. Cpa
        0
        5 March 2013 16: 32
        Yes, I agree, but Esen is nine in Mongolian, chik "-chik" is like Chingiz Khan's. Esen tug is nine banners.

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“Non-profit organizations, unregistered public associations or individuals performing the functions of a foreign agent,” as well as media outlets performing the functions of a foreign agent: “Medusa”; "Voice of America"; "Realities"; "Present time"; "Radio Freedom"; Ponomarev; Savitskaya; Markelov; Kamalyagin; Apakhonchich; Makarevich; Dud; Gordon; Zhdanov; Medvedev; Fedorov; "Owl"; "Alliance of Doctors"; "RKK" "Levada Center"; "Memorial"; "Voice"; "Person and law"; "Rain"; "Mediazone"; "Deutsche Welle"; QMS "Caucasian Knot"; "Insider"; "New Newspaper"