The problem of the "Mongol" invasion of Russia. Part of 3

Returning to the problem of the “Mongolian” invasion, it is impossible not to note the geopolitical aspect of this world page. stories. The invasion of Batu's troops in the form in which it is served to the citizens of Russia (and before that, the USSR and the Russian Empire) creates a stable national inferiority complex - “300 years of the Mongol-Tatar yoke”, “Kosovo Russians” who lost the war to “Mongol nomads— shepherds ”, payment of tribute, humiliation of the Russian princes, including the“ sun of the Russian Land ”Alexander Yaroslavich, etc. Alexander Nevsky is generally accused of betrayal. Like, he chose to cooperate with the "Mongols from Mongolia", rather than enlightened Europeans, who offered help in the fight against the "Tatars". In addition, this black myth almost completely disguises the heritage of the great northern civilization - Great Scythia (Sarmatia), and its entire population recorded in the ranks of the Mongols and Turks.

Therefore, it is necessary to consider some of the controversial issues of the “Mongol invasion” and versions that do not correspond to the “classical” concept, which is so beneficial to our Western, and even Eastern (in particular, Chinese) “friends and partners.” The study of these issues allows us to abandon the concept of world history imposed on us from Europe and work out our own, Russian one. The emergence of the Russian historical concept will allow us to get rid of most of the myths, cliches that hold down Russia, do not allow it to go its own way, abandoning the Western impasse (which leads humanity to death). Their circle includes the problem of the origin of the Pechenegs and the Polovtsy, which in the “classic” version of the story were recorded in the Turks.

The problem of the origin of the Pechenegs and Polovtsy

Pechenegs. The “classical” (or rather, the truncated and distorted version) of Russian history gives all the steppes of Eurasia to the period of the Middle Ages to the “Turkic” peoples - Pechenegs, Polovtsy, Tatars. They are usually traditionally portrayed in Russian films and fiction as “evil Mongols”, with the main features of the Mongoloid race. Favorite occupation of narrow-eyed riders is to burn Christian churches and take them full of women and children. Thus, the predatory habits of the Crimean Tatars extended to all the steppe peoples of medieval Eurasia.

According to this version, after the disappearance of the Khazars (people of "unknown" origin), the whole south of the East European Plain was occupied by the Turks-Pechenegs, who became the "worst enemies" of Russia. It is worth looking closely at what we know about the “Pechenegs” (and little is known about them). At the end of the 9th century, the Pechenegs came to the European part of Russia from Central Asia. Anthropologically, the Pechenegs were Caucasians, not “Mongoloids” from films. And they actually had no differences from the typical Rus. This is proved by the message from the Tale of Bygone Years, when a youth calmly managed to get out of Kiev, surrounded by the Pechenegs. Kiever could easily get lost among the Pechenegs, knowing only one phrase in their dialect, he asked - "Has anyone seen a horse?"

Archaeologically, no traces of the presence of the “Pechenegs” as a special ethnos were found in the South Russian steppes (N. I. Vasilyeva, Yu. D. Petukhov. Russian Scythia.). The burials of the Pechenegs are low mounds, they did not create their necropolises, preferring to bury their dead in Scythian burial mounds. What hints at the "Scythian" origin of the Pechenegs. They did not consider the Scythian burial mounds as strangers, otherwise they would not bury their loved ones there. The excavations of the South Russian steppe burials of the “Pechenezh” period - 10-11 centuries, reveal complete continuity with the Alan-Sarmatian tradition, which in turn is the direct heir of the earlier periods - Scythian, Cimmerian, Aryan (Indo-European). Stuffed horses or their remains, composing silver belts, bone overlays for heavy bows, straight swords, belt amulets, arrowheads are found in the mounds. It is the same as the Scythians and Sarmatians, the custom to erect monuments in honor of the soldiers "missing" (cenotaphs). The fact that the Pechenegs are the heirs of the Scythian civilization is also indicated by the runic-type writing system adopted by them. Thus, the “Pechenegs” who came from the east, apparently, were descendants of Asian Sarmatians-Alans, retreating under the pressure of the Turks. In the southern Russian steppes, “the Pechenegs easily and completely (this is indicated by the absence of special“ Pecheneg ”traces) fit into their ethnopolitical system related to them.

In addition, there is evidence of an allied relationship between the Pechenegs and the "classical" Rus. The 10th century Arab geographer and traveler Ibn Haukal calls the Pechenegs "the thorn of the Russias and their power." This is not surprising if we recall that the Pecheneg detachments helped Svyatoslav defeat the Khazars, and were participants in his war in Bulgaria. It should be noted that some researchers believe that the Pechenegs blamed Svyatoslav unjustly in the death, hiding the true customers of his murder (the Kiev elite, the “pro-Byzantine party”). Tale of Bygone Years for 915, notes that the Pechenegs came to the Russian land for the first time. They did not come as enemies, the Russian government immediately concluded an alliance with them against the Hungarians. Shortly before that, around 898, the Hungarians broke beyond the Don and established control over the steppe as far as the Danube. Thus, the Pechenegs were made as allies of Russia against the Hungarians and the Khazars. Pechenegs also participated in the fight against Byzantium. They acted as part of the troops of Russia in the campaign of Igor on Constantinople in 944, fought in the army of Svyatoslav, in 970, they participated in the battle of Arkadiopol on the side of the Grand Duke of Kiev. The appearance of the Pechenegs significantly strengthened Novgorod-Kiev Russia and the Don region to it.

The myth of the constant struggle of the Russians against the “Pecheneg hordes” was created later. For almost the entire 10 century, relations between Russia and the Pechenegs were generally peaceful and allied. Although it does not speak about the possibility of conflict situations. So, Svyatoslav put in place those Pechenegs who came to Kiev in his absence. The relations between Kiev and the Pechenegs became sharply aggravated only after the adoption of Christianity by Prince Vladimir. The Baptist Prince had to wage serious wars with the Pechenegs and strengthen the near borders of Kiev. However, major campaigns of Russian troops in the steppe against the Pechenegs were not noted. Russian princes were limited to the strengthening of borders.

At the beginning of the XI century, internal conflict broke out already among the Pechenegs themselves. Part of the Pechenegs adopted Islam, and two Western tribes (located at the Danube) adopted Byzantine Christianity, and came under the rule of Byzantium. In addition, the Pechenegs took part in the internecine war between Yaroslav the Wise and Svyatopolk the Accursed, supporting the latter. The last conflict between the Pechenegs and the Russians was recorded in the 1036 year, when Yaroslav defeated the steppe inhabitants near Kiev.

After that, the Pechenegs "disappear." Some of them were noted in the wars of Byzantium. Others joined the "Border Guard" of the Kiev princes - "black hoods". Moreover, the “black hoods” were an important part of the army of the Old Russian state, which not only protected the southern frontiers, but participated in almost all of their armed actions of the Russian princes, and together with the Kiev boyars, “hoods” resolved domestic political issues - they decided to invite Kiev another prince. Thus, the Pechenegs were an organic part of Russia at the time of Igor and Svyatoslav, then a serious conflict occurred due to religious schism. However, a significant part of the Pechenegs joined the Russian ethnos. Therefore, N. I. Vasilyeva draws the following conclusion: Up to the end of the 11th century, the steppe zone of Southeastern Europe was not only populated by the direct descendants of the Scythians-Alans (Rusas), but was also subordinate to their political control.

Polovtsi. As is known from written sources, the Torks came to replace the “disappeared” Pechenegs in the 11 century (according to the classical version, the southern branch of the Seljuk Turks), then the Polovtsi. But for two decades of being in the South Russian steppes, the Torks did not leave any archaeological sites (S. Pletnev. Polovtsian land. Old Russian principalities 10 - 13 centuries).

In the 11-12 centuries, the Polovtsi, direct descendants of Siberian Scythians, known to the Chinese as the Dinlins, advanced into the steppe zone of European Russia in the wake of southern Siberia. They, like the Pechenegs, had a "Scythian" anthropological appearance - they were blond Caucasian. The paganism of the Polovtsi practically did not differ from the Slavic: they worshiped the father-heaven and mother-earth, the cult of ancestors was developed, the wolf enjoyed great respect (we remember Russian fairy tales). Their main difference from the Rus Kiev or Chernigov, who led a fully sedentary lifestyle of the tillers, was paganism and the semi-nomadic way of life.

Polovtsian steppe.

In the Ural steppes Polovtsi strengthened in the middle of the 11 century, and this is due to their mention in the Russian chronicles. Although not identified a single repository of 11 century in the steppe zone of southern Russia. This suggests that initially military units, not a nationality, came to the borders of Russia. Somewhat later, traces of Polovtsians will be clearly visible. In the 1060-s, military clashes between Russians and Polovtsi became regular, although Polovtsians often act in alliance with someone from the Russian princes. In the 1116 year, the Polovtsy won up over the Yas and occupied the White Tower, from that time on, and on Don and Donets, their archaeological traces - “stone women” - appear. It was in the Don steppes that the earliest Polovtsian "women" were discovered (the images of "ancestors" and "grandfathers" were called so). It should be noted that this custom also has a connection with the Scythian era and the time of early bronze. Later Polovtsian statues appear in the Dnieper, Azov and Ciscaucasia. It is noted that the sculptures of women-Polovchanok have a number of "Slavic" signs - this is the temporal rings (a distinctive tradition of the Russian ethnos), many on the chest and belts have multipath stars and crosses in the circle, these charms meant that their mistress is patronized by the Goddess-mother.

For a long time, it was considered that the Polovtsy were almost Mongoloid in appearance, but Turkic in language. However, in their anthropology, the Polovtsians are typical northern Caucasians. This is confirmed by statues, where the images of male faces are always with a mustache and even with a beard. Türkic language of the Polovtsy is not confirmed. The situation with the Polovtsian language is reminiscent of the Scythian - with respect to the Scythians, they adopted a version (unconfirmed) that they are Iranian-speaking. Almost no trace of the Polovtsian language, like the Scythian, remained. An interesting question is where did he disappear in such a relatively short period of time? For analysis there are only a few names of Polovtsian nobility. However, their names are not Turkic! There are no Turkic analogues, but there is a consonance with Scythian names. Bunyak, Konchak sound the same as the Scythian Taksak, Palak, Spartak, etc. The names of such Polovtsian are also found in the Sanskrit tradition - Gzak and Gosak are noted in Rajatorongini (a Kashmir chronicle in Sanskrit). According to the “classical” (European) tradition, all those who lived in the steppes to the east and south of the Rurik state were called “Turks” and “Tatars”.

In anthropological and linguistic terms, the Polovtsy were the same Sarmatian Scythians as the inhabitants of the Don Oblast, of the Azov region, on whose lands they came. The formation of the Polovtsian principalities in the southern Russian steppes of the 12 century should be considered as a result of the migration of Siberian Scythians (Russ, according to Yu. D. Petukhov and a number of other researchers) under pressure from the Turks to the west, to the lands of the Volga-Don yas, and the Pechenegs.

Why are related peoples fighting with each other? Just look at the current relations between Ukraine and Russia to understand the answer. The ruling groups fought for power. There is a religious schism - between pagans and Christians, somewhere Islam has already pervaded.

The archeological data confirm this opinion about the origin of the Polovtsi as the heirs of the Scythian-Sarmatian civilization. There is no big gap between the Sarmatian-Alanian cultural period and the “Polovtsian” one. Even more than that, the cultures of the “Polovtsian field” show affinity with the northern, Russian. In particular, only Russian ceramics were found in the Polovtsian settlements on the Don. This proves that in the 12 century, the bulk of the population of the “Polovtsian field” was still constituted by the direct descendants of the Scythian-Sarmatians (Russ), and not the “Turks”. This is also claimed not written down and written sources 15-17 centuries. Polish researchers Martin Belsky and Matvey Stryikovsky report the kinship of the Khazars, the Pechenegs and the Polovtsy with the Slavs. The Russian nobleman Andrei Lyzlov, the author of Scythian History, as well as the Croatian historian Mavro Orbini, in the book The Slavic Kingdom, claimed that the “Polovtsy” were related to the “Goths” who stormed the limits of the Roman Empire in the 4-5 centuries, and "Goths", in turn, are Scythian Sarmatians. Thus, the sources that survived after the total “cleansing” of the 18 century speak about the kinship of the Scythians, the Polovtsy and the Russians. This was also written by Russian researchers 18 - the beginning of 20 centuries, who opposed the “classic” version of the history of Russia, composed by the “Germans” and their Russian followers.

The Polovtsi were not “wild nomads” with whom they like to portray. They had their cities. "Polovtsian cities" Sugrov, Sharukan and Balin are known to Russian chronicles, which contradicts the concept of "Wild Field" in the Polovtsian period. The famous Arab geographer and traveler Al-Idrisi (1100-1165, according to other 1161 data) reports on six fortresses on the Don: Luka, Astarkuz, Barun, Busara, Sarad and Abkad. There is an opinion that Barun corresponds to Voronezh. And the word “Baruna” has a Sanskrit root: “Varuna” in the Vedic tradition, and “Svarog” in the Slavic tradition (God “welded”, “bungled”, created our planet).

During the period of disunity of the Rus, the Polovtsi actively participated in the showdown of the princes of Rurikovich, in the Russian strife. It should be noted that the Polovtsian Khan princes regularly entered into dynastic alliances with the princes of Russia, became related. In particular, the Kiev prince Svyatopolk Izyaslavich married the daughter of the Polovtsian Khan Tugorkan; Yuri Vladimirovich (Dolgoruky) married the daughter of the Polovtsian khan Aepa; Volyn prince Andrei Vladimirovich married the granddaughter of Tugorkan; Mstislav the Redeem was married to the daughter of the Polovtsian Khan Kotyan, etc.

Polovtsy suffered a great defeat from Vladimir Monomakh (V. Kargalov, A. Sakharov. Commanders of Ancient Russia). Part of the Polovtsy went to Transcaucasia, the other to Europe. The remaining Polovtsy, reduced their activity. In 1223, the Polovtsi were twice defeated by the “Mongolian” troops - in alliance with the Yasy-Alans and with the Russians. In 1236-1337 The Polovtsy took the first blow of Batu's army and put up stubborn resistance, which was finally broken only after several years of brutal war. The Polovtsi constituted the majority of the population of the Golden Horde, and after its collapse and absorption by the Russian state, their descendants became Russians. As already noted in anthropological and cultural terms, they were descendants of the Scythians, like the Rus of the ancient Russian state, so everything was back to normal. In the time of Ivan the Terrible, the ancient northern civilization began to return to its former possessions, which stretched to the Pacific Ocean.

The problem of the "Mongol invasion" and "Mongol-Tatar yoke"

The traditional version of the “Mongolian” history and invasion is a myth and deception. According to the historian Yu. D. Petukhov, “The myth of the“ Mongols from Mongolia in Russia ”is the most grandiose and monstrous provocation of the Vatican and the West as a whole against Russia”. In order to understand this, it is enough to recall just a few facts.

The term "Tatar-Mongols" is not in the Russian chronicles. The Mongolian ethnic groups themselves called themselves “Khalkha”, “Oirats”. This is a completely artificial term that P.Naumov introduced in 1823 in the article “On the attitude of the Russian princes to the Mongolian and Tatar khans from 1224 to 1480.” The word "Mongols", in the original version of "Mogul" comes from the Korneslova "could, we can" - "a husband, a powerful, powerful, powerful." From this root comes the word "Mughal" - "the great, powerful." It was a nickname, not the self-name of the people.

It is obvious that the Mongols could not be called "great, powerful" then, and at the present time. Anthropological Mongoloids "Khalkhu" never reached Russia and Europe. These were poor nomads, primitive herders, who stood at a low level of primitive communal development, who did not even create a pre-state entity, let alone a “Eurasian” empire.

Archaeologists have not found a Mongoloid element in the 13-15 burials of centuries (V. P. Alekseev. “In search of ancestors”). There were no Mongols in Russia, not to mention the "Mongol invasion" and the "Mongol yoke". Archaeologists find traces of battles, burned and destroyed settlements, traces of pogroms, battles, but there was no “Mongolian empire” in Eurasia, as well as “anthropological mongoloid material” in Russia. The war really was, but it was not a war between the Rus and the Mongols. In the burial grounds of the time of the Golden Horde, only Europoids found the bones. This explains the Tatar-Mongolian images that have come down to us - these are typical northern Europeans. In Western Europe, on engravings "Mongols" are depicted in the image of Russian boyars, archers and Cossacks. The Mongoloid element in Russia in insignificant numbers will appear only in the 16-17 centuries, together with the service Tatars, who, being Caucasians themselves, will begin to acquire Mongoloid signs on the eastern borders of Russia.

There was no invasion and "Tatars". It is known that before the beginning of the 12 century, the “powerful moguls” and the Turkic Tatars were hostile. “A Secret Story” reports that the warriors of Temujin (Genghis Khan) hated the Tatars. For a while Temuchin subjugated the Tatars, but then they were completely destroyed. In those days, the problem of separatism and possible treason was solved simply - all the male Tatars were cleanly killed, young women and children were distributed by birth. It is strange to call Batyi warriors "Tatars" - this is the same thing, if you call the Americans who destroyed most of the Indian tribes, one of their names. Already much later, the Bulgarians (inhabitants of the state of Bulgaria on the Middle Volga, which became part of the Golden Horde) began to be called "Tatars".

The myth of the “Mongol empire” and the “Mongol invasion” is also confirmed by the economic, military, demographic component of this page of history. Mongolia and now almost uninhabited territory. And how many Mongols were in Mongolia 12-13 centuries? Could this territory give rise to armies from tens of thousands of fighters who poured in an iron stream in all directions and conquered the crowded China, Central Asia, the Caucasus, Polovtsian steppes, Russia? Where are the traces of the powerful industry that armed thousands and thousands of fighters with a good iron weapons? How did heaps of wild shepherds suddenly turn into skilled warlords, metallurgists, engineers, warriors? How could whole armies overcome the distance from Mongolia to Ryazan and Vladimir? How could the wild steppe men defeat the mighty Chinese civilization, defeat the states of Central Asia, crush the militant Polovtsian princes and crush the Russian principalities?

We are told fairy tales about iron discipline, the decimal system of organization, the "Mongolian bows", the horse corps, etc. However, the discipline was iron in the army of any then state, the decimal system of division of the troops was known in Russia long before the arrival of the "Mongols", and Russian complex bows beat much farther and more powerful than the simple bows of nomads (like the bows of the English Robin Hoods).

And so all the countless works of art, novels and films about “Mongol warriors” destroy everything in their path, about “kurultai”, “onons and kerulens” can be safely called one of the most dangerous and harmful myths for Russia and the Russian people. How was it created? This can be understood by seeing, as it has been for several decades, gradually, gradually, creating a black myth about the Hitler and Stalin regimes being the same, about the USSR (Stalin) striving to seize all of Europe, about Soviet soldiers who had raped all German women on the way to Berlin, etc. .

To be continued ...

Comments

[DeerIvanovich]

the author correctly noted everything, I note one thing, the ancestors of the Volga Bulgars and the emphasis on Russian have absolutely the same identity, be it Mariel, Mordovians, Chuvashs or baptized, which the presently Islamized leadership of Tatarstan has written down in the Tatars. this is especially noticeable in rural areas.
in general, the author relied on actual historical works and archaeological facts - for this a bold plus article

[Yoshkin Kot]

say nonsense, dear, I live in Mari El, and I distinguish accents of Tatars, Chuvash and Mari in years,

[sulagay]

The accent of Tatars, Chuvash and Mari and Russians living in the Volga region is about the same, I confirm as a former resident of Mari El, I now live in Siberia, but I identify former compatriots by the first phrases

[DeerIvanovich]

Quote: sulagay

The accent of Tatars, Chuvash and Mari and Russians living in the Volga region is about the same, I confirm as a former resident of Mari El, I now live in Siberia, but I identify former compatriots by the first phrases

Oleg, here you too confirm my words.

[Yoshkin Kot]

you are a storyteller, I was born, raised and live in Yoshka-Ola, not counting several years outside the republic, do not make me laugh

[DeerIvanovich]

I did not write about the Tatars. wrote about baptized. did not communicate with the Tatars of the Volga region.

[Yoshkin Kot]

um, you have a passport scan. what to send? if you ask a kosopuz, he is the same local, if I guessed who he is

[DeerIvanovich]

judging by the fact that you are already far from the first article in the comments, you grind in language and are engaged in provocations on historical topics, instead of arguably exposing the facts, you could not expect another answer.

[Yoshkin Kot]

nd, I'm tired of your pseudo-historical Russophobia

[Yoshkin Kot]

Its uniqueness lies in the fact that the Rodnovers are not patriots of today's Russia and not even Russia of the second millennium. For the most part, this period is of little interest to them, and to a considerable number it is also clearly disgusting. Warm, nagging feelings are directed to the virtual "Motherland", the existence of which is still not undermined by science, in particular history. In the network, thanks to the article on pravaya.ru, the term describing this type of patriotism is gradually spreading - Martianism. It stands for love for the never existed homeland, people, culture and religion. Those. it is a kind of personal demarche, flight, departure, rejection of historicity as such, denial of its reality. Denial is often aggressive, offensive to others

[Simon]

And Vyatichi, the same Russian, that is, Vyatka, living in the Kirov region. on the river Vyatka. The dialect is different from other Russian ethnic groups, the Moscow dialect, the Ural dialect, the southern regions of Russia, everywhere the dialect is different, but still we consider ourselves Russian.

[BruderV]

Vyatichi, Meria, Meshchera, Murom, Chud, Vod - this is the basis of the Russian ethnos and by the way is not Slavic at all, but what is now considered Finno-Ugric, although these peoples do not belong to the Hungarians or the finals, just a common language group . Of modern relict peoples, the closest Mordovians are. Of the Slavs in the territory of modern European Russia, only Novgorod Slovenian colonists from the southern Baltic states lived, and the rest are the original peoples who lived here thousands of years before the Slavs. Well, it’s worth mentioning only the resettlement of the Slavs from the Principality of Galicia, who founded Galich-Mersky much later.

[skullcap]

Quote: BruderV

Vyatichi, Merya, Meshchera, Murom, Chud, Vod - this is the basis of the Russian ethnos and, by the way, is not Slavic at all, but what is now considered Finno-Ugric, although these people do not belong to Hungarians or just fins

Well, there are questions here.
For example, in the bylinas, Ilya of Murom is positioned solely as a Russian and there is not a single hint that he is from a foreigner.
Living for a long time in Ryazan, I had acquaintances of Meshcheryakov, who had not heard about their Finno-Ugric roots from their ancestors.
In my entrance lives a neighbor who comes from Belarus from the village, which leads its roots from yatvyagi. They in the village speak the language that Zap. Ukraine, they say Rusyns. And the science of Yatvyagov also does not consider Slavs. I think that EA someone fed up these conclusions well in due time.
So the crib with Murom may well be in fact Russians like Siberians or Pomorians who were backdated by interested pillars of science to non-Russians.

[BruderV]

Quote: kosopuz

Living for a long time in Ryazan, I had acquaintances of Meshcheryakov, who had not heard about their Finno-Ugric roots from their ancestors.

So you go to Mordovia in Saransk. There you will also find many families with non-Slavic surnames who do not know anything about their Mordovian ancestors. Their assimilation process is taking place right before your eyes, just nobody sees it. And somewhere about Rurik, Sineus or Truvor said that they are not Russians? You understand. You write about the times when there were no Russians. There was a tribal union of Russia, which included all the classic Nestor tribes: glades, Drevlyans, Krivichi, Dryagovich ... They all spoke different languages ​​and it is not surprising that Ilya Muromets is considered a Russian hero - this is a representative of one of the tribes that made up the state of Russia, in which there was not a single dominant ethnic group, the Russian ethnic group took shape in the 15-16 centuries.

[BruderV]

By the way are not interested in place names? Here find Slavic roots in the word Moscow. Only without options such as a bridge and a qua, with the same success Serpukhov is the GrayPuhovyeOvtsy. Or Ryazan, Ryazhsk, Kolomna, Mozhaysk, Iksha, Losha, Oka, etc. If you travel around Russia, the names of the rivers are generally not Slavic at all.

[skullcap]

Quote: BruderV

Or Ryazan

Well, "we have mushrooms with eyes in Ryazan, they Eat them, and they gaze." To find a non-Russian name in a purely Russian name, you need to have a program.
Ryazan-Rezan from the word cut.

[BruderV]

Quote: kosopuz

Ryazan-Rezan from the word cut.

Yes, I beg you. Who were they cutting? Do not read Wikipedia, do not be Wikipedia. Given the fact that the city existed before the Slavs, the roots must be sought from the Meshchera. But here I will not argue because there are many versions and reliably find out which one is correct no one else can.

[Papakiko]

Khanty and Mansi call her - As (Big river)
And we are calling -Ob

BruderV: existed before the Slavs; roots must be sought at the Meshchera
And how can one find the roots?

[BruderV]

Quote: Papakiko

And how can one find the roots?

Well, you can draw an analogy with the modern Erzya people (part of the Mordovians) they have Erzya - this is Erzyan. So the word “Ryazan” could have been some kind of adjective, but since the language didn’t survive ... Actually, let's say try the Klyazma River to fit modern Finnish and write Latin, it’s something like Klaasema that looks like Jyväskylä or Saaremaa. In order not to go far for examples not so long ago, Finnish Viipuri became Vyborg.

[Marek Rozny]

in pursuit of Viipuri - "Tsaritsyn" from "Tsara Tsu" (the phonetic version of the citing dialect - "Sary Su" - "Yellow Waters"). Saratov - "Sary Tau" ("Yellow Mountain"), Tyumen - just "Nizina", Astrakhan - "Hadji-Tarkhan" (apparently from a personal name. Hajja means "Boss", was a frequent element of a personal name, now the word under the influence of Islam "the one who performed the Hajj to Mecca"; Tarhan - an official position. It was also often part of a personal name.). In Western Kazakhstan there is a settlement which is called funny in Russian - Ganyushkino. This is how the Russian settlers changed the name "Kan isken" ("The place where blood was shed"), the Burabay area in the Akmola region was changed by the Russian settlers into the understandable "Borovoye".
The Germans in eastern Germany and the Czech Republic shifted in their own way a bunch of Slavic place names and hydronyms. Hear - like a German word, and dig deeper - you will find a Slavic basis.

[rexby63]

Find in the names Berlin, Leipzig, Dresden Germanic roots, find in the names Paris, Toulouse Romanesque. But what can I say - GIVE France and England to the Celts, Germany to the Slavs, Russia to the Hungarians and Finns. Do not tell me what the dispute is about on the forum - about historical justice or about the greatness of local "historians" 'own show-off? The good deed that Samsonov offers is once again turning ...

[BruderV]

Quote: rexby63

Russia to Hungarians and Finns

(Tired) ahh ... well, what have Hungarians and Finns to do with it. You see, ancient immigrants from the Urals, living on the Central Russian Upland for more than one thousand years. Ugro-Finns are a language group, not a nationality. And the Slavs are a language group, not a nationality or a gene pool. Or do you think the Bulgarians are no different from the Poles or Belarusians? I'm talking about Thomas, you're talking about Yerema. I'm talking about ethnogenesis, you're talking about language groups.

[BruderV]

Why do the French call themselves Gauls, although they speak a Romance dialect, and the country is generally called the Germanic name Francia ?. Why do Scots and Welsh, speaking in English-Saxon, consider themselves Celts and they are? You see, people do not forget the roots.

[rexby63]

And also because among the descendants of Gauls and Picts, "historians with a mathematical bias" are not born and it does not occur to them to identify King Arthur with William the Conqueror

[rexby63]

Mm mm But Adam had his own and all Slavic peoples, and the Germanic, and now small Celts

[Marek Rozny]

In the 20th century alone, the Russian ethnos has absorbed a huge number of Russians and Germans who have forgotten their roots, Turks, Germans, Jews, Mordovians, Finns, Greeks and others. Until 1940, the half of the Leningrad Region consisted of Finnish villages. Their native grandchildren already consider themselves to be originally Russian people, and there are no village names left at all - everyone renamed them.
In the 90s, I liked the program "While everyone is at home." There are two presenters - Timur Kizyakov and Andrey Bakhmetyev. Also already Russians, not Tatars))))

[BruderV]

Quote: Marek Rozny

In the 90s, I liked the program "While everyone is at home." There are two presenters - Timur Kizyakov and Andrey Bakhmetyev. Also already Russians, not Tatars))))

So Karamzin (Karamurzin) is also a Russian historian. In general, Russia is in modern terms like the USSR or the Russian Federation. That is, then Rusich = today's Russian or Soviet citizen, Rusich could be at least a Varangian, even a Karelian, if he recognized the power of the Russian prince. Simply, by historical standards, Russia lasted longer than the USSR and the tribes were more homogeneous Caucasoid, therefore they assimilated quite easily and turned into a Russian ethnos.

[Marek Rozny]

I absolutely agree, I will only add that among the Turkic nomads, the state ethnonym was constantly changing depending on which khan ruled them. For example, I live on the territory of present-day Western Kazakhstan - today I am a Khazarin (because I am subordinate to the Khazar Kagan), tomorrow I am a Khorezmian (because I am subordinate to the Khorezmshah Muhammad; but at the same time my neighbors call me the generalized name "Kipchak") after 1220 - I am a Mynkol / Mongol (because I am a member of the Horde of Genghis Khan), the day after tomorrow my children are already called Nogays (because they obey Nogai and Edyge), and when Edyge gets me, I subordinate to the khans Janibek and Kerey, and accordingly I am called "Cossack" (Kazakh). And all this without even leaving the place!
Only generic names were saved and are more or less preserved. But even they sometimes could change due to changed realities (mixing of two genera, subordination of one genus to another, etc.)

[skullcap]

Quote: Marek Rozny

I absolutely agree, I will only add that among the Turkic nomads, the state ethnonym was constantly changing depending on which khan ruled them. For example, I live on the territory of present-day Western Kazakhstan - today I am a Khazarin (because I am subordinate to the Khazar Kagan), tomorrow I am a Khorezmian (because I am subordinate to the Khorezmshah Muhammad; but at the same time my neighbors call me the generalized name "Kipchak") after 1220 - I am a Mynkol / Mongol (because I am a member of the Horde of Genghis Khan), the day after tomorrow my children are already called Nogays (because they obey Nogai and Edyge), and when Edyge gets me, I subordinate to the khans Janibek and Kerey, and accordingly I am called "Cossack" (Kazakh). And all this without even leaving the place!

And this concerns not only the Kazakhs. For example, the same Chinese: whether they are Qin, Ming, or Han, they are all the same Chinese. Over 4 thousands of years.
But in relation to Russian: x Polyana and Vyatichi are no longer Russians, since they have not yet been formed, not to mention the Scythians, etc.
Well, Belarusians and Ukrainians are no longer Russians, since they acquired local dialects. Already the Siberians are told that they are not Russians. (Although the same Ktais - northern and southern - still speak completely different languages ​​- but nothing - the Chinese)

[skullcap]

Quote: Marek Rozny

For only one 20 century, Russian ethnos has absorbed a huge number of Russianized

This process is peculiar not only to the Russian people. The Byzantines who have been quoted as an example by you many times now are all Turks, but they know that they were Greeks.
And among the Russians, the overwhelming majority still remember, among their ancestors, the Germans, from the Poles, and the Turks, and the Tatars. But Meshcheryakovs do not remember for some reason.

[BruderV]

Quote: kosopuz

. But the Meshcheryakovs do not remember for some reason.

Well, you compared. How can the Turks not remember when the hedgehog understands that the Turks came from Central Asia, and now they look like the Greeks. Here you can’t hide, you will not die out, you will not smear it. And how people should remember who their ancestors were a thousand years ago Slavs or not, especially since there are practically no external differences with the aborigines. As for Meshcheryakov, surnames in Russia began to appear only somewhere under Ivan the Terrible, before that there were nicknames. By the time of Grozny, all the representatives of the Meshchera could already consider themselves Russian and the surname was given only based on the name of the area. But the former Crimean Tatars living in Turkey for some reason already consider themselves Turks.

[rapira99]

I’ll correct it a little - there were names, but only at birth they gave one, but for strangers others were thought up. It was a belief - an outsider should not know your true name, so as not to take away your strength, or anything like that. Therefore, in the annals for the most part only names remained that were called.

[BruderV]

Like a proof of Mordvin in national costumes. What are not Russian girls?

[Yoshkin Kot]

nothing Russian girls

[BruderV]

I’m afraid to imagine whom you consider Russian. And I have similar facial features, so I'm not Russian?

[BruderV]

And these, too, are not similar to Russian?

[Marek Rozny]

Klyuchevsky (a well-known Russian pre-revolutionary historian) had a phrase in his "History of the Russian State" that the modern Russian ethnos is 2/3 a mixture of Slavs and Finno-Ugrians. At the same time, it is difficult to accuse Klyuchevsky of Russophobia or lack of knowledge of Russian history and everyday life.
The assimilation of numerous Finno-Ugric peoples occurred with the introduction into the Russian culture of a bunch of Finno-Ugric elements of language, life and rituals. Up to clothes in some regions and Russian dances squatting, which are uncharacteristic for the western and southern Slavs.
By the way, according to one of the fairly convincing versions, the widespread Russian surname Smirnov, for example, usually indicates the Finno-Ugric origin of the owner of this surname. This surname was forcibly given to the "pacified" (ie, conquered) villages of the Mary in the Northern Volga region. All the Smirnovs whom I met in my life were very similar to each other - dark-haired, with a kind, docile character, with a special cut of the eyes (not Slavic and not Turkic). Of course, there may be different representatives of this surname, but I have not met others. In the same way, the names of the Chuvashes were distributed en masse, when they were annexed to Russia and forcibly converted to Orthodoxy - all male Chuvash were driven into rivers for baptism and they called everyone in a crowd, often with one name and patronymic, for example, Vasily Ivanovich. By the way, the Turkic-speaking Chuvash are also a vivid example of Russification. Most of the Chuvash no longer speak their native language, but only Russian, are Orthodox and consider themselves to be Russians. At the same time, the Chuvash and indigenous Türks, it seems, were not, but are a Türkized Finno-Ugric tribe, if I am not mistaken. Or mestizo origin.
Putin is also a Finno-Ugric surname. Although the other people of this tribe.
Z.Y. Not at all my post applies to the admin)))) Just the last name is really characteristic and interesting from the point of view of origin.

[Yoshkin Kot]

Yeah, and genetics, the corrupt defect of imperialism

[Yoshkin Kot]

I have no idea what your face is

[datur]

Yoshkin Cat,
nothing Russian girls - exactly - Chinese women !!! edrit madrid !!!!

[Sandov]

BruderV,
O.N. Trubachev is a very good linguist, argued that there was one language. but with errors in the territories. Ethnicity is also one.

[Sandov]

Yoshkin Cat,
Languages ​​and dialects change over time, but the fact that these territories were occupied by one ethnic group from sea to sea, over time, all the present nations living in Russia emerged from it - this is true. What do you want Middle-earth however. Center of the world. Therefore, the haplogroups of the entire population are very similar and hardly distinguishable among themselves. The big article +, is glad that the truth is slowly coming to all our nations and nationalities.

[Yoshkin Kot]

The first Dolboslavs appeared in the USSR at the end of the 80s, thanks to the illegally distributed books of A. Ivanov-Skuratov, “The Christian Plague” and V. Emelyanov, “Desionization”. But the first who seriously took up the popularization of "Rodnoverie" in Russia was A. Dobrovolsky, aka Dobroslav. It was his followers who began to be called "Rodnovers." At about the same time (in 1994), a book by V. Avdeev "Overcoming Christianity" was published in the small publishing house Kap.

Rodnovery in Russia became really popular after the release in 1998 of the book by V. Istarkhov (the real name of the Aryan and the fighter against Zionism Goodman) “The Blow of the Russian Gd”, and now it is one of the most fashionable trends among the unburdened by knowledge and critical thinking youth.

[Tverichanka]

Why are you so attached to Rodnoverie? This is something completely different in the article. And the article is correct and necessary. What side of the article do you stick Avdeev and Istarkhov? And finally, not only you, but the others have the right to their own opinion .Is not it so?

[avreli]

Maybe something has changed over the years, but twenty years ago Istarkhov was Vladimir Alekseevich Ivanov.

[Rink]

Great article, and very timely.
These "German tales" about the invented people of the "Mongol-Tatars" must be beaten severely and beaten only with facts. Moreover, there are plenty of them!
"The people of the conquerors of half of the world" who did not leave the field nothing:
- no documents
- there are no graves and remains,
- there are no cities
- no descendants,
such people look more than strange.

The fact that they also did not have an economic base - for some reason, too, does not bother anyone. In addition to feeding horses, you also need to shoe horses. four horseshoes per horse, three horses per warrior ... Well, how much iron is needed ?! how many blacksmiths? and, most importantly - how much fuel to melt the ore ?! WHERE is all in the steppes ?! !!

Where scientists come to the conclusion about the Mongoloid nature of Genghis Khan is completely incomprehensible, because there is evidence of the Arabs who visited his stake: Genghis Khan, according to their descriptions, is above average height, blonde and blue-eyed... What nerd of such a handsome man could be written down in the Mongols? !!

In Mongolia, the population learned about its "great past" only from Europeans, they did not have any legends, tales or legends. Could the people have lost so much the memory of their relatively recent past if scientists assert that the Greeks kept whole poems or philosophical treatises word for word in the oral tradition for almost 500 years?

The Polovtsians not only did not differ in appearance from the Rus, for so long they were the only ones with whom the Russian nobility was related. For Polovtsy they gave out daughters, Polovtsy were taken as wives. Considering that the Polovtsy also buried their dead in Scythian mounds, they cannot be recognized as kindred people only by malicious intent.

To the author - respect and respect!
Do not drop the topic, there is a lot of interesting things! Klondike is simple.

[Beck]

Again there is some confusion, from my point of view, with the desire to reduce everything to the great. I once wrote a child. I will repeat briefly.

The determining factor in nationality is not blood and genes, but the language that forms consciousness. Any child is born without nauionality, he is born of Man. His nationality is determined by what language he will be taught. If you take a newborn Chinese and bring him up in a Russian family, he will grow up with an awareness of Russianness.

In the eastern Trans-Urals, in the territories of Kazakhstan and Central Asia, in Xinjiang, flowing Altai in western Mongolia and southern Siberia, Indo-European Arians lived until our millennium. From the 2nd century BC South Siberian arias were assimilated by the Turks from the steppes of Mongolia. In the 1st century, the Turks assimilated the Indo-Europeans of Xinjiang and South-East Kazakhstan. In the 2nd century, the Turkic-speaking Huns assimilated the foreign Europeans of Northern Kazakhstan and the Volga region. And when in the 6th century the Turkic Kaganate was formed from Ussuri to the Don, this does not mean that one tribe of Turks settled throughout this territory. The Türks only established their political hegemony over the territories in which Turkic-speaking tribes already lived - a cross between Turks and Indo-Europeans. And also this tribe gave scientists of the 19th century an ethnonym which they designated a group of related peoples, they could call not Türkic-speaking, but, for example, Hunno-speaking, in languages ​​it would be the same thing. Turkic people of the 6th century assimilated only the last Indo-Europeans in the south-west of Kazakhstan and in Middle Asia.

Assimilation was different everywhere. Somewhere, in varying degrees of percentage, Indo-European blood prevailed, somewhere Asian, but everyone had one language - the adverbs of the Turkic language. Herein lies the bewilderment of the curious who have turned the prevalence of anthropology of one type into pseudo-historical theories.

Example. And here on the page. Dinlin were red-haired and blue-eyed. I agree. But their ancestors of the Indo-Andronian culture of the upper Yenisei were assimilated by the Huns in the 2nd century BC, but not in a significant percentage. And since the Huns politically prevailed at the cross, called dinglins, the language became Turkic. The descendants of these dinlins, mixing even more with the Turks of the Turkic gaganate, in the Baraba steppes began to be called Kypchaks. The Kipchaks were already half red-haired and gray-eyed. In the 10th century, the Kipchaks moved to Northern Kazakhstan, and some of them in the 11th century moved to the South Russian steppes, called the Polovtsy.

The Huns who migrated to the Volga region in the 2nd century also left their genes to the local Indo-Europeans and Ugro-Finns not 100%, even less than 50, but they prevailed and the cross began to speak Turkic. This cross, after a part of it under the name of the Huns poured into Western Europe, became the ancestors of the Proto-Bulgarians. From the Proto-Bulgarians, later formed the Khazars, Volga Bulgars, Bulgars of Khan Asparuh in Bulgaria. Volga Bulgars became descendants of Tatars, Bashkirs, Chuvashs.
Their appearance clearly shows the incompleteness of assimilation. Tatars have both Asian and European features, and the latter are more numerous, but the language is Turkic. The smallest assimilation among the Chuvash, they have an anthropological type almost the entire Indo-European, but the language remained Turkic. The exact same difference between the Kazakhs and Uighurs with Uzbeks. Uighurs and Uzbeks anthropologically predominate their Indo-European ancestors than Asian ancestors. In Kazakhs, Asian genes predominate. In this they differ in appearance.

Something like that. And do not ascribe the Yenisei Dinlin to Tartaria and Russian roots.

[BruderV]

Quote: Beck

The determining factor in nationality is not blood and genes, but the language that forms consciousness

I disagree. Not only language, but also religion and cultural environment and in general the place of habitation. Here are some children of the mountains who speak Russian quite normally, but at the same time, "your house was breaking a pipe, your house book was matal," can they claim to be Russian consciousness? Somehow everything is simple with you, I learned the language and have already changed my nationality. Why, then, Latinos in the United States do not pass from national minorities sometimes even after several generations? They know the language. But at the same time they continue to live in the ghetto with their own culture and consciousness. The same goes for blacks.

[Beck]

Quote: BruderV

Not only language, but also religion and the cultural environment and, in general, habitat.

Either I wrote incomprehensibly or you misunderstood. Religion and culture are natural, but it comes through language. Without language, religion and culture cannot be realized. That is, the child first learns the language.

I meant a Chinese child who is brought up in a Russian family from the very beginning. He will learn the Russian language, through the language he will come to Orthodoxy, Pushkin. He will gain and of course will understand that anthropologically he is not like the others. But in the soul, according to the awareness of the world, he will already be Russian.

The sons of the Caucasus who learned Russian, of course, will not feel Russian. Since they pronounced the first word mother in another language and sang other lullabies, they were brought up in a different mentality. And the Russian language is essentially a foreign language for them.

Maybe I gave a bad example with a Chinese. Then take the Belgian. Well, if he grows up in the Russian environment from birth and in his adult state, no one tells him that he is Belgian, he won’t think about it.

USA. There's a completely different calico. America, in my opinion, is the development of the established first model of the future of humanity. There are mixed nations and races, the language of communication is English, but of course there are those who know their native languages, but there are less and less. In the future, as in America, there will be a complete mixture of peoples and races on earth. Perhaps all people will be like creoles. And the language will be on Earth one most likely English or Chinese, or whatever. And we will all become one nation of Earthlings of planet Earth. And aliens for become intelligent beings of other solar systems. And our past will remain in the memory of humanity guarded by history. There is simply no other way in the era of globalization. And no matter when this happens, after 500 years or after 1000 years. But it will happen.

Milestones of enlargement. Rod Tribe. People. Nation. Now the formation of economic and territorial spaces - America, United Europe, EurAsEC. China and India, it has historically developed that many peoples are on the same territory, in one state.

Something I signed. Well, here is my futurology.

[Yoshkin Kot]

a mixture of fiction and truth, the conclusions are not justified by anything, the connection of the Dinlin and Polovtsy from the realm of fantasy. the connection of the Polovtsian pagan pantheon and the Slavic-Baltic is not traced, except for neopagan fairy tales, of course. In general, the AUTHOR write fantasy in the spirit of the seed! and you will mow the loot on boobies like fans of Fomenko, and other babys!
zyuyu strange, but where is the statement that the "Slavs" were taught to build the pyramids of the Egyptians?

[DeerIvanovich]

that is, besides a loud concussion, do you have nothing more to say? can you still try to logically refute the facts proposed in the article?

[Yoshkin Kot]

that is, I say that the article is spelling B R E D O V A I

[Yoshkin Kot]

dolboslovy essentially

subject of worship

pagan spirit

[tomket]

is SHABASH ????

[Alexander Petrovich]

that is, I say that the article is spelling B R E D O V A I - as well as your photos, which are absolutely off topic.

[Yoshkin Kot]

unfortunately in the subject, Fomenkovo-nosovtsy and neopagans of the same field berry

[Octavian avgust]

Nosovsky and Fomenko scumbags in general and historians have no right to be called! Petukhov is not far gone!

[Marek Rozny]

The Turks also have their own "discoverers of history" - Murad Aji, for example, and a host of small upstarts, in whose books King Arthur becomes a Tatar or Kazakh))))
Standing apart is Daniyar Kalibekov - he has a generally sound idea, but linguistic fictions in the style of Zadornov spoil his books.

[Octavian avgust]

Zadornov washed his brainwash about Rurik without telling anything. And he closed this question.

[Alexander Petrovich]

Well, tell us, I personally respect you with interest.

[Sandov]

Marek rozny,
Germans and Angles have a Türkic haplogroup. It is undeniable that all ethnic groups participated in the formation of modern humanity as a species. Slavic haplogroup even reached Iceland.

[Marek Rozny]

about the English - I don't know, but the Germans seem to have only the southern ones (Bavaria, Switzerland, Austria) the Huns spoiled their blood))) well, if you remember that the Goths and some Germans with the Huns were allies, and that for the southern Germans Etztel ( Attila) remained in the legends as "their" king, in contrast to the North Germans, for whom Attila was remembered as an "enemy" king, then, in general, it is not surprising.
and so the Germans are really very different from each other - southerners and northerners. and as someone who knows Kazakh and German, I can cite more than a dozen words in German, which are a complete copy of the Turkic analogue in phonetic and semantic meanings.

[Che]

Marek Rozny,
On the Baltic coast, the Germans mixed with the Slavs, and in the south with the Turks. Naturally in different time periods. The smelter boiled and splashed out more and more nations. Millennium is like one instant for the universe.

[Beck]

Quote: Marek Rozny

Apart stands Daniyar Kalibekov

Please do not mention this name, Daniyar Kalibekov, in the sou. From my point of view, it is worse than Murad Aji. This is our Kazakh Fomenko. Leads the Kazakhs, namely the Kazakhs, and not the Turks deep into the beginning of centuries. Only conceit with narcissism, because he does not have a critical look at himself from the outside. Only a chimera of historicity, since it does not own materials. Only nationalism and chauvinism, as there is no common culture.

[Sandov]

Yoshkin Cat,

Presented pictures of course go-in. Worship of the phalos? But Fomenko and Nosovsky mathematics proved the infidelity of the Scaligerian chronology and nothing more. Therefore, I think it is wrong to have such an attitude towards them. Conscientious and honest researchers have to refute or confirm their hypotheses. But the fact that the history of Russia is distorted and distorted by the West is not news in its interests, but a homespun truth.

[Tverichanka]

I agree with you two hundred percent. And the meaning of the flipping is understandable. And at present, this meaning is no longer hidden.

[Rink]

Quote: Sandov

Presented pictures of course go-in. Worship of the phalos? But Fomenko and Nosovsky mathematics proved the infidelity of the Scaligerian chronology and nothing more. .....

Phallic cults are one of the oldest in history, they are noted on all continents, in the history of almost all peoples. (Except for those, of course, that have arisen recently). Cults of the female deity, the goddess of fertility, are characteristic of all Aryan peoples. With the change of matriarchy to a patriarchal system of society, the masculine principle with a corresponding change of symbolism became the main symbol of fertility.
The obscurity here is seen only by modern Yoshkins cats, level 80 trolls. Moreover, either out of ignorance or intentionally, in addition to trying to show more devious, they also pretend that these cults were only among the Russians. What to do they decide its task

Fomenko and Nosovsky, such "experts" simply begin to giggle, because essentially can not object to them.
Of course, with Fomenko and Nosovsky, not everything in their theory is indisputable (especially Nosovsky is sometimes "carried away"), but, damn it! who and where saw the indisputable scientific theories? !! Fomenko has a grain of truth; the task of cleaning it from the husk is already a job for the entire clan of historians.

Linking Fomenko to the new pagans is not even nonsense, it is violent schizophrenia.

[Rink]

For reference, not everyone knows who Scaliger is and who Fomenko is.
___________________________

Joseph Scaliger was born on August 5, 1540 in the aquitanian city of Agen. He was the third son of the humanist scientist Julius Caesar Scaliger. From the age of 12, Joseph studied at the Guyenne College in Bordeaux. After the death of his father in 1558 he went to Paris. He studied at the Sorbonne for four years. As a result, the young Scaliger perfectly mastered not only Latin and Ancient Greek, but also Hebrew and Arabic. The encyclopedic possession of sources available at that time created Scaliger the glory of a major philologist. His comments (1573) on the treatise by M. T. Varron "De lingua Latina" and the lexicographic work of the Roman grammar S. P. Fest (1575) revealed the archaic Latin to the scientific world.
In the 1560s, Joseph Scaliger traveled through Italy, then through England and Scotland. During the trip, in 1562, he becomes a Calvinist. Joseph Scaliger took part in the religious war of his time: as a philologist, he exposed the forgery of a number of papal documents, like a soldier, he fought in the ranks of the Huguenots.
After Bartholomew’s night, Joseph Scaliger flees to Switzerland and becomes a professor at the Geneva Academy.
In 1593, Joseph Scaliger went to the Netherlands. He spends the rest of his life at the University of Leiden and his activities contribute to the flourishing of philology in the Netherlands.
...
However, the mathematical knowledge of Joseph Scaliger was not so significant. It is known that he considered himself the author of the true quadrature of the circle, which he published in 1594 in the book Cyclometrica elementa duo. Although his method was disputed by modern geometers (Viet, Clavius, A. van Roomen and L. van Köhlen), Joseph Scaliger insisted that he was right: according to his erroneous arguments, the number of PI would be equal to the root of 10 (approximately 3,16 ...), which was a less accurate value than even Archimedes (22/7 = 3,142 ...).
____________________

[Rink]

_______________________

Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko (March 13 1945, Stalin) - Soviet and Russian mathematics scientist, specialist in topology and a number of other areas, Doctor of Physics and Mathematics, full member of the Russian Academy of Sciences (since 1994), the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences and the Higher School of Economics (International Academy of Higher Sciences Schools).
He graduated from the Faculty of Mechanics and Mathematics of Moscow State University in 1967. He was a student of V.V. Rumyantsev and P.K. Rashevsky. Since 1969 he has been working at the Department of Differential Geometry of the Mechanics and Mathematics Faculty of Moscow State University.
In 1970 he defended his thesis on the topic: “Classification of completely geodesic manifolds that implement nontrivial cycles in Riemannian homogeneous spaces” (supervisor - professor P.K. Rashevsky), and in 1972 - his doctoral dissertation on the topic: “Solution of the multidimensional Plateau problem on Riemannian manifolds. " In 1980, he became a professor in the department of higher geometry and topology, and in 1992, he became the head of the department of differential geometry and its applications. Member of the Academic Council of the Faculty of Mechanics and Mathematics of Moscow State University, member of the Council of Academic Councils of Moscow State University. Deputy editor-in-chief of the journal “Vestnik MGU” (series “Mathematics”).
Anatoly Fomenko is a laureate of the Moscow Mathematical Society (1974), a mathematics prize of the Presidium of the USSR Academy of Sciences (1987), and a laureate of the State Prize of the Russian Federation (in mathematics 1996). In 1991 he was elected a full member of the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences (RANS), in 1993 he was elected a full member of the Academy of Sciences of the Higher School, in 1994 he was elected a full member (academician) of the Russian Academy of Sciences, and in March 2009 he was elected a full member of the Russian Academy of Technological Sciences. Federation (ATN RF).

The main directions of scientific research:
* Variational methods in differential geometry and topology, the theory of minimal surfaces and the Plateau problem, harmonic mappings.
* Integration of Hamiltonian systems of differential equations. Integrable equations on groups and Lie algebras, in mathematical physics. The theory of invariants of differential equations. Creation of a new theory of topological classification of integrable dynamical systems.
* Computer geometry, algorithmic methods in topology. Computers in three-dimensional topology and geometry.

The author of more than 250 scientific publications in mathematics, including 23 monographs, 8 textbooks and teaching aids. His math books have been translated into many foreign languages ​​(English, Japanese, French, Spanish, Italian, Serbian). Hirsch Citation Index - 9 (as of 2010).
______________________________

Philologist versus physics and mathematics, 16th century versus 21st.


We will continue to giggle, or read, what, in fact, do these authors write?
Maybe it's time, as one movie character said, "Open your mind" and think about some things that seem incredible at first glance? or ugly?

[Sandov]

Rink,
Respect to Igor, everything is competently and intelligibly. I read something from Fomenko, was shocked by the recognized. The desire now is one that sensible researchers are found and confirm or refute his research. As I understand it, he conducted research and calculations somewhere for 5-10 years.

[Octavian avgust]

Yes, from Western tolerance is not much different.

[skullcap]

Quote: Yoshkin Cat

dolboslovy essentially

But for me this is another creative attempt to introduce liberal-democratic values ​​in Russia, taking into account, so to speak, local folklore.

[Tverichanka]

Oh, I cry ... How very literate you are and what the rest are all dumb-dumb .... Besides reading a history textbook for the fifth grade, did you read anything? Don’t share the sources?

[erased]

That's right. It is a pity that the real true story is still under the yoke of an official, convenient story.

[Yoshkin Kot]

The myth of the “Mongol Empire” and the “Mongol invasion” is also confirmed by the economic, military, demographic component of this page of history. Mongolia and currently almost uninhabited territory

and did you try to read the primary sources? those Mongols lived a little further north, and no one considers the Oirats (modern Mongols) to be the predecessors of the very ones, tired of this pseudo-historical nonsense, "reliable" only for people who do not have an elementary historical education!
and then, the author can say anywhere that someone considers the horde to be 100% Mongolian? so that do not attract "mudya to beard" do not make people laugh with your absolute illiteracy!
zs I consider such pseudo-historical opuses to be the most perverted form of Russophobia, designed to create out of us Ivan the kinship of those who do not remember, to make us betray the Memory of His Ancestors! replace them with puppet "neopagan" (piiiiii). Replace the Pride and Feats of the Russian People! To the Tolkien tale, to destroy the basis, the basis of the existence of any ethnos, its History! his Memory!

[DeerIvanovich]

where are the facts, where are the facts? what do you again embark on trepidation ... that you can’t answer with reasoning?

[Yoshkin Kot]

um, learn the story! not for storytellers and comedians

[Octavian avgust]

Yes you are right! Zadornov is still a historian! At the 60th year I began to study history! Complete nonsense. Ardent Russophobe!

[Prometey]

Quote: DeerIvanovich

where are the facts, where are the facts? what do you again embark on trepidation ... that you can’t answer with reasoning?

Such comrades as Yoshkin cat believe that everything that is written in school textbooks is an unavailable truth, therefore, facts are only in kind - it is written so. Although yes, the writer Yang was probably an eyewitness of those events that he transferred to his trilogy.

[Yoshkin Kot]

I'm Yoshkin cat, google! and I'm sorry I'm not your friend!

[tomket]

you can read about Marco Polo if the textbooks are not your authority

[Tverichanka]

Well, did you read Marco Polo? And how? I had so much fun ....

[Ross]

DeerIvanovich,
But when did he know how? Do not pay attention to the wretched.

[Tverichanka]

Of course it cannot, since there are no arguments. But there is a strong confidence in the correctness of only your own point of view ... Do not even try, it is impossible to prove anything to such "experts".

[dema46]

where is your source from? Isn’t it from Yang? about the Second World Sea of ​​books, there are a lot of Russian-Japanese books, but I didn’t hear anything besides the book. It’s even funny to listen to your accusations of Russophobia, where does Russophobia come from? The author expressed his thoughts, and you express yours and it’s written on the water which of you are right. history is often written under the power of the haves. at first we knew one thing about the revolution, and now we are molded another. and this is about what was recently, but we can only guess where the truth is and where is the lie. what primary sources do you nod to the author? on those that the monks molded under Ivan the Terrible? how much can you trust them? where do you get so much self-confidence in your judgments and disrespect for the opinions of others? why the hell knows what people which slightly different opinion than yours? tolerance is an unfamiliar word for you?

[DeerIvanovich]

correctly noticed, Jan did a lot to promote this myth ...

[Yoshkin Kot]

n-dya, what myth? myth, this is the "research" of pseudo-historians

[Urrry]

Unfortunately, there is a lot of "myth-making" in any story: both official and alternative .. :) The subject of the study itself - the events of bygone eras - is very multifaceted and complex, plus the complexity of analyzing "sources". Now a funny method of studying the history of peoples has still appeared - by haplogroups. You can not trust the chroniclers, suspecting them of some kind of "order", be mistaken with the correlation of archaeological finds - but it is more difficult to cheat with DNA :)

[Tverichanka]

You are not even a plus, but a plus !!!!!!!

[gennadi]

I like the intellectualism of the Yoshkin cat, but does he know much about the Mari?

[Yoshkin Kot]

I know more about marichki, a la naturel, however!

[Yoshkin Kot]

nd, do you believe in Middle-earth?

[Alexander Petrovich]

Sir, it’s good to type letters into the wind — write something sensible that refutes what was said in the article. Otherwise, they will not consider you otherwise than a balabol.

[Yoshkin Kot]

I believe that nonsense should not comment on me! and a psychiatrist, personally, I’m absolutely not going to stoop to such a level

[Alexander Petrovich]

And where does the psychiatrist, the article scientifically proves, from the anthropological and archaeological point of view, that the Tatar-Mongol invasion is for the most part a made-up and embellished story. What did you create such hysteria here?

[Yoshkin Kot]

Yeah, there are a lot of such scientific ones in the same room with Napoleon

[Alexander Petrovich]

Judging by your smiley, you personally know this Napoleon, right?)

[Tverichanka]

Of course, I know ... And not only with him. Strange such komenty, at some kind of bazaar level ... Knowledge is not enough, but the right to truth belongs only to him ...

[Alexander Petrovich]

It seems that the farther we are from those events, the more our past unfolds, albeit foggy but nevertheless it is pleasant, to spite all Russophobes who are used to counting us as Mongols.

[Octavian avgust]

There was no need to argue here.

[Sandov]

Alexander Petrovich,
Well, what do you want from Dmitry, if a person is blindfolded and does not want to know the true history of his homeland, he is simply not interested. The knowledge of historical truth must nevertheless prevail over the desire to move in line with Western historical thought.

[Alexander Petrovich]

He is probably one of those who support Gordon and his team. I watched his program when he met with Zadornov, they tried to refute him, but in the end, despite the fact that Zadornov often treated all this with humor more like clowns than he did. As a result, this program was cut off leaving a one-hour out of a 3-hour meeting.

[avt]

And the myth continues, so they showed Mongolia on TV and seriously a piece of metal with “Mongolian” letters. I wonder where the Mongolian writing came from, if they used the Uyghur? forward to the "last sea".

[Parabelum]

Something I did not understand, the author denies the Mongol-Tatar invasion (let me use this term). Those. Battle of Kalka, Batu campaign, etc. Is this all dreamed by the chroniclers? I do not understand such digging ...
Our princes lost for a simple reason, everyone was on his own and confident in his exceptionalism. Against the united army of nomads (which included many tribes), under the leadership of a strong leader, alone, the princes simply could not do anything. By the time the western campaign began, the Mongols had already conquered China. And this was not a gathering of wild shepherds, but a close-knit army, in which there was a division of tens of hundreds, thousands, etc. For example, there were no rigid disciplines in Western countries, often barons and counts acted at their discretion and desire (as the Russian princes incidentally).

[DeerIvanovich]

interpreting facts in a fair light for certain aspects of the historical process is not the truth.

[Parabelum]

What facts? there really wasn’t a Battle of Kalk? Batyev’s campaign? Or did the Mongols not conquer China? Or do you want to say that the Mongols having captured China would have rescued in front of a handful of princes, who were also constantly biting among themselves? Well, that’s just not logical. I lived in Mongolia, spent the night in yurts (invited to visit), by the way they are still scattered shooting from bows (solely from entertainment). He was in the museum of Ulan Bator, with his own eyes he saw the armor of a Mongol warrior. Yes, they still honor Genghis Khan. Turning a blind eye to the obvious is not just bad, it's dangerous. At that time we were informed that we are weak one by one. Only together we are power. And you are trying to tell that nothing was nonsense and gag. Let’s say then that there wasn’t Russian-Japanese either, we couldn’t lose to narrow-eyed, crooked, small chipizdriks. The green men forced us to make a truce, showing an impressive hologram of the Tsushima battle and giving time to think. What a trifle ...

[Goga]

Parabelum - Colleague, there are enough myths, including those written by "Westerners" in our history (since the times of Vladimir Monomakh) and there is a lot to work on here. But this is not a reason for "neo-pagans" to present their fantasies as true history. Where, when and by whom is the fact of the "kinship" of the Scythians and the Russians justified? Unless in A. Blok's poem it is an artistic image, nothing more. It is surprising that all these people who consider themselves historians are far from a truly historical approach to the analysis of events.
The absence of written sources in Russia does not at all mean the absence of such sources at all. There are chronicles among the Persians, Arabs, Chinese, etc. clearly dated and not ambiguous indicating the origin of the conquerors, but reading them for authors like ours is too much work.
As for the poor and unpopulated country of Mongolia - I live 200 km from the Mongolian border, I often go there - but now Mongolia is not a great country, but this was clearly not always the case, and it was not the first time when Genghis Khan got the Chinese from the "northern barbarians" ( and not the last). The same can be said about Italians - well, there could not have been a Roman Empire - look at the current "macaroni" - could such people create a great empire? Pictures from Russian chronicles cite as proof that both fighting sides are armed equally - this is a chronicle, and not a report by Arkady Mamontov from the scene of the battles - written decades after the events and illustrated with isographers that could not even see a living warrior in his eyes how he was trained drawing a warrior according to a template is how he portrayed, and looking for historical accuracy in these miniatures is like studying the Vietnam war from Hollywood films. Further, even writing is not interesting, with whom to argue? The level is not the same. It's bad that such "discoveries" confuse people who sincerely love their country and want to know its great history, only proving foaming at the mouth that the Slavs built the Chinese wall - you can only expose yourself to ridicule. Our history does not need such attempts to "glorify" it, we have something to be proud of without these cheap attempts.
And the last - the story is not in school textbooks (especially Fursenkovsky ones), the person who wishes will always find a lot of sources, and the thinker will be able to compare, compare and decide for himself that is closer to the truth - you don’t be lazy ...

[Parabelum]

I completely and sincerely agree with you.

[Yoshkin Kot]

Namely, the attempts of the youngsters are simply ridiculous, and they do not realize that they are objectively on the side of the same "West" which at the moment has already slipped into pagan savagery with pedophilia and pederasty!

[Marek Rozny]

Goga, I always say that Russian history is rich and that Russian people have something to be proud of their national origin. However, many go too far and climb into the wrong garden, creating stupid myths out of the blue. Moreover, many pages of Russian history are undeservedly ignored. For example, the Battle of Molodi is the majority of Russians and is unaware of this event. But this is a key (and most importantly - real) battle, which finally put an end to the attempts of the Turks to dominate the Russians. Instead, they are promoting the Battle of Kulikovo, as if supposedly a symbol of the struggle against the Horde, although Mamai was not any Khan of the Horde, he is not Genghisid at all! Yes, and a significant basis of his army were Italians from Genoa and Ryazans! And the defeat of the separatist Mamai was in the interests of the Horde and its legal khan Tokhtamysh.

[DeerIvanovich]

Alexei, if understanding of the Russian language is difficult for you, I will try to explain it again. falsifiers may not cancel the facts, but in this case they are engaged in the interpretation of these facts in their favor. and they do it when it’s hard to reverse the facts.
in other words: there were battles, and campaigns were made, and China was conquered, and much more was done, but ... only those who are inscribed in official history.

[Parabelum]

And where did you get that understanding the Russian language is difficult for me?

Quote: DeerIvanovich

... only here are not those who are inscribed in official history.

Well, yes, well, yes, Genghis Khan is a myth, it was not there. This ancient Slavs conquered China, the Mongols, etc. Or were these mouse rockers from Mars?

[DeerIvanovich]

interpreting facts in a fair light for certain aspects of the historical process is not the truth.

and where did you see the denial of facts here? also troll please?

[Parabelum]

Why troll, you demand facts, they bring you to them, they do not suit you. Therefore, you have the facts and can provide links to serious and authoritative resources (LAI does not count)? Or are you suggesting I look for facts that will suit you?

[DeerIvanovich]

Something I did not see the links you provided to serious and authoritative works, you gave your interpretation of the facts. I didn’t offer you to look for facts, especially since they will suit me. I asked you for links to sources, but for the time being you proceed with one verbiage instead of arguing against it.
why should I be the first to cite links in defense of the article, if not the first I began to criticize it without reason. Here, give out a reasoned answer, I will answer you in the same way.
in the meantime, you can continue to fool about and make a fool out of yourself, if I’m talking about Yerema, and you answered me about Thomas. be more constructive mr. good!

[Prometey]

Quote: Parabelum

By the time the western campaign began, the Mongols had already conquered China. And this was not a gathering of wild shepherds, but a close-knit army, in which there was a division of tens of hundreds, thousands, etc. For example, there were no rigid disciplines in Western countries, often barons and counts acted at their discretion and desire (as the Russian princes incidentally).

What is your source of information? By the way, no one wrote about how yesterday’s single nomads succeeded in forcing them to fulfill all orders implicitly - it is impossible to instantly break the age-old foundations of life.

[Parabelum]

Well, if the history textbook does not suit you, then please:
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CC%EE%ED%E3%EE%EB%FC%F1%EA%EE%E5_%E7%E0%E2%EE%E5%E

2%E0%ED%E8%E5_%CA%E8%F2%E0%FF
this is the very first offhand.
In general, google there a lot of what is written.

Quote: Prometey

By the way, no one wrote about how yesterday’s single nomads succeeded in forcing them to fulfill all orders implicitly - it is impossible to instantly break the age-old foundations of life.

About the unification of the Mongolian tribes, there is a lot of information on the Web, in short, Genghis Khan (Temujin), with the support of Khan Togoril, whom he conquered, who voluntarily joined his horde. What kind of foundations are you talking about? Nomads constantly fought among themselves (doesn’t it remind anything?), And knew how to fight.

[DeerIvanovich]

Wikipedia on the part of history is not a source, it is dumps. you were asked to bring the scientific works of scientists, and not a lot of information from the network.

[Parabelum]

"History of the East" (in 6 volumes). T.II “East in the Middle Ages”, - Moscow, publishing house “Oriental literature” RAS, 2002. ISBN 5-02-017711-3
Bichurin N.Ya. The story of the first four khans of the house of Genghisov. - St. Petersburg: Karl Kraya printing house, 1829.
Vorobiev M.V. Jurzheni and the State of Jin (X-1234). - M .: Nauka, 1975.
Okladnikov A.P. The distant past of Primorye (Essays on the Ancient and Middle-Age History of the Primorsky Territory) - Vladivostok: Note. Books. Publishing House, 1959.
Okladnikov A.P., Derevyanko A.P. The distant past of Primorye and Amur Region - Vladivostok: Far East. Books. Publishing House, 1973.
Khrapachevsky R. P. “The military power of Genghis Khan”, - Moscow: “Publishing house AST”, 2005. ISBN 5-17-027916-7

Yes please find read

[Tverichanka]

Oh, Wikipedia is weighty !!!! An even more or less competent pensioner is already embarrassed to refer to it ....

[jack clubs]

What is incomprehensible? It seems everything is laid out on the shelves. There were battles and Genghis Khan and campaigns. There were no Turks and Tatars. there was an ordinary civil war of some Europeans with other Europeans. How it could be difficult to understand, but the confirmation is simple (not everyone will dig ancient mounds) - look at yourself in the mirror. Where are these slanting eyes, cheekbones and hairless cheeks?

[carbofo]

Parabelum,

There is reason to believe that there was no invasion as literally as described in some sources.
There were local clashes of clans, and they were all mixed up.
And on this and on the other hand there were both Russians and Tatar and Mongolian groups and others like them.

[Marek Rozny]

The author believes that the nomads of Eurasia, who conquered half the world, were ordinary Russians. And it turns out that it was the Russians who conquered China, Central Asia, Persia. They soaked the Arabs and Crusaders under Legnica. Yes, even the battle in Palestine at Ain Jalut, when the Horde troops under the command of Naiman Ket-Buki with the Mamelukes of Egypt under the command of the Kipchak (Polovtsian) Baybars, are Russian internecine wars. After all, the Horde are Russians, and the Polovtsians are also Russians.
I propose to the author to start eating primordially Russian food - horse meat and kumis, to put balbals ("stone women") on their ancestors and start living a nomadic way of life in a yurt, which is so typical for Russians, in order to finally dispel the doubts of opponents of his idea.
By the way, I also propose not to dwell on the fact that the Kipchaks and most other Turks are not pure Mongoloids (in fact, the Turks belong to the Turanian South Siberian race, which is a transitional race between Caucasians and Mongoloids), but to declare all burials in Persia also Russian , there are also Caucasians in their graves. By the way, given the wide variety of Caucasoid skulls, with the same aplomb it is possible to attribute both Jewish and Spanish graves to Russians. What is this? The Caucasians are the same. Moreover, they are also culturally much closer than the no less "Slavic" Polovtsians and Scythian nomads.

[Marek Rozny]

by the way, the language of the Polovtsians does not raise a single normal scientist's questions. Numerous written sources in the Polovtsian language have been preserved. And even a dictionary of the Polovtsian language "Codex Kumanikus" (Kipchak-Latin dictionary, 1303). The language is purely Turkic. Has an affinity for modern Tatar and Kazakh languages.
Many Armenian books (even bibles) are generally written completely Polovetsian - in Armenian letters, but in Turkic.

[Marek Rozny]

The only thing I can agree on is the absence of signs of the Mongols (more precisely, the Khalkha) in Russian history. The Turks also lack the presence of Mongolian influence (cultural, linguistic, tribal). At the same time, for example, in the Kazakh language there are whole layers of Iranisms, Arabisms, but there are no Mongolian words at all. There are no Mongolian names or Mongolian clans in the composition of modern Kazakhs. It is difficult for a Kazakh to prove that supposedly the horde of Genghis Khan consisted of some kind of "outsiders", because he is a direct descendant of these Horde people, which is documented in writing in all eastern chronicles, which are completely ignored by Russian pseudo-historians. All Kazakhs are still divided into clans (like the Khalkha Mongols) and the history of any Kazakh clan for at least a thousand years has been described by the Chinese, Arabs, Persians and the Turks themselves. What kind of families came with Genghis Khan from the depths of Mongolia to Turkestan at the beginning of the 13th century is known for sure. It is also known what kind of families rushed from Turkestan under his banner to the West and to the Muslim world. Many names of modern Kazakh families still bear the imprints of that time. My clan is Argyn, the subgenus "karauyl" (literally "guardsman / guard", since my ancestors were bodyguards for the Chingizids), the division of the subgenus is called "zhaulybai" (literally, "the one who seizes foreign countries", from the characteristic verb "zhaulau "-" to seize foreign lands "). Moreover, these names have been preserved not only in Eastern documents, but also in Russians - in the forms of "guard" and "javlyubai".
And if the author considers the Horde (for example, the Ket-Bugu mentioned by me above) and the Polovtsy to be Russian, then let him further develop his thought - Kazakhs are Russian! After all, the Naimans and Kipchaks are 2/3 of the Kazakh Middle Zhuz. And the Younger Zhuz, in which the Khazars and Nogais have dissolved, are also Russians! We will compose a shchyas one more thread, and it remains only to attribute the Senior Zhuz of the Kazakhs to the Slavs. Moreover, the Elder Zhuz has many Caucasian facial features since the time of the assimilation of the Central Asian Scythians-Saks, and many southern "Kazakhs" of the Elder Zhuz had already settled down by the 13th century.

Here I have brought the author's idea to the point of absurdity, and tomorrow some thread "discoverer of history" will seriously begin to prove that Kazakhs are Russians who speak Turkic instead of Slavic because of the influence of Uzbeks and Turkmens ...

[Sandov]

Quote: Marek Rozny

The only thing I can agree on is the lack of signs of the Mongols (more precisely, the Khalkha) in Russian history.

Well, that's closer to the topic. Middle-earth made history. And the west wrote it.

[skullcap]

Quote: Marek Rozny

By the way, the Polovtsian language does not cause any normal scholar

To be honest, normal scientists haven't personally inspired any confidence in me for a long time.
For example, after one of the previous articles, you as a linguist gave a number of words that were allegedly introduced into Russian from Scandinavian.
Including yakr and hook.
Though I am not a linguist, I try to use my brains, and not to be led by authorities who may be false.
It turned out: the crust, Korably, anchor. As you can see, it is quite a logical etymological series, and a purely Russian without any Scandinavians.
Or: the crust, the yoke, zakoruchka, SKRYuchenny, Kryuk. Also all in Russian.
I don’t talk about others because I don’t remember (the hook and bark immediately slashed me), but it is possible that these are common Indo-Aryan words, if not borrowed from the Russian by Scandinavians and have survived to this day.

[romb]

Here is a sample of the Polovtsian language.
Source "Codex Kumanicus":

Uzun aγаč bašïnda
urγuvul atlï quš olturur;
anï atma är kerek,
eki učuna> yüreginä taš kerek

Apparently, there is clearly not a Slavic language.

[Marek Rozny]

Quote: romb

Here is a sample of the Polovtsian language.
Source "Codex Kumanicus":
Uzun aγаč bašïnda
urγuvul atlï quš olturur;
anï atma är kerek,
eki učuna> yüreginä taš kerek

It is easily read in Kazakh, practically unchanged for 700 years.
Uzun Agash Basynda
Urgylau (?) Atta kus otyrar.
They are atu ushin er kerek,
Eki ushina - zhuregin tas kerek.

On top of a tall tree
Waving (wings) bird sits;
To shoot her (with an arrow) you need a bastard,
At two ends (?) - and in the heart you need to have a (hard) stone.

I didn't quite understand what "eki ushyna" refers to, but on the whole the text is absolutely clear. Those who like to prove that the Polovtsian language is supposedly Slavic, try to read this quatrain of the early 14th century.

[romb]

Marek, absolutely right!
And I didn't know that you are fluent in the "Old Slavic" language.

[skullcap]

Quote: romb

Source "Codex Kumanicus":

Isn't your code a late fake?

[romb]

I don’t think so. The first attempts to study (systematize) this document date back to the second half of the 14th century.
In general, this code is a Latin-Cuman (Kipchak) dictionary created by missionaries of the Catholic Church in order to promote the delights of the "true" Christian faith among nomads.
In general, this is not the kind of document that would make sense to fake.

[Sandov]

romb,
When did you manage to translate to the Latin alphabet? Do not make me laugh.

[romb]

So it's not me
It was written in Latin for about seven hundred years before I indicated it here.

[Che]

romb,
Dear comrade, Latin and Cyrillic appeared after the Old Slavic language. This is a historical fact. Each new language became poorer and poorer. The current degradation of languages ​​is simply discouraging.

[romb]

Dear, I, probably, knowingly indicated this word in quotes "__".

[Nicotine 7]

Dear, the Slavic language does not exist in nature! However, like the Muslim, Christian ... I hope you understand me?

[romb]

I'm sorry, are you me?
If yes, then I will try to explain the meaning of what is written. By "Slavic language", figuratively speaking, I meant: East Slavic, West Slavic .... linguistic group of related languages, to which the Polovtsian (Kipchak) language obviously did not belong.

[Marek Rozny]

Kosopuz
but you don’t want to make such a row KORA-CORPORATION-KORiandr-KORtik-KORsar-Koryst. there are so many "discoveries" you can make on this chain! The first corporations were with the Russians, the birthplace of coriander was Russia, daggers and pirates appeared with the Russians, well, self-interest - that is how the Russians called the feeling of German scientists who stole the whole history from the Russians ...

[skullcap]

You can blab any question, but the series I cite are confirmed by a general meaning, in contrast to your tricked ones that are meant to be ridiculed and not opposed.

[Sandov]

Marek rozny,
The first part of your opus is generally fair, but we need an unbiased study of historical facts. I am afraid current historians are against historical truth; it is disadvantageous for them.

The second part is crap.

[Marek Rozny]

The second part is really crap. I wrote this, bringing to an absurdity an attempt to prove that the Horde and Polovtsy are supposedly Slavs. because after that it will be necessary to recognize the Kazakhs as Russian

[Tartary]

It is worth answering yourself a few questions:
Was the history of Russia rewritten by the Germans or not?
Ancient books burned under Peter 1 by his decree or not?
The revolution of 1917 destroyed the remains of ancient chronicles or not?
(this is about the fact that in one of the towers of the Moscow Kremlin in the 20s of the 20th century, for a long time, many books and documents ranked as historical archives were stored that were shared somewhere and no one knows exactly was somewhere gone, but never appeared ...)
How Russia, surrounded by centuries, thousands of years, so many enemies with powerful armies, was able to become Russia?
Russia with a history incomprehensible to itself and the people is deeper than 1000 years.
Not on the basis of whether the legends (3-5) of generations that were not yet distorted or already irreparably distorted then, but also some documents that were still not lost (such as today’s icons of the Middle Ages), A.S. Pushkin, Karamzin and others. Classics of literature and history wrote, recognized throughout the world their works and works?
Or are they the same, but in their own way were deeply mistaken?

And if you find, even for yourself, the correct answers to the questions posed, it will become clear that the debate, especially about the education of each of us, will be a stupid occupation - we all do not have the right education in this topic.
But anyone can boast of false education, which in essence has nothing to confirm, the acre of diplomas and dissertations bought or stolen.

Something like this ... Or something like this seems to me the situation.

[Yurbor]

There is an interesting thing: A new chronology from Fomenko and Nosovsky.
Quite logically answers the questions posed by you, and considers the official history taught in schools to be falsified.

[Yoshkin Kot]

um, can you still recommend?

[Che]

Yurbor,
Mathematicians Fomenko and Nosovsky proved the fallacy of the Scaligerian chronology. By the way, it’s very convincing. Good scholars would have to figure it all out, but they would not scream and be worn out for no reason.

[Yoshkin Kot]

fabulous dibilism!

[Goga]

Tatar - Colleague, in order -
- Yes, the "Germans" put a handle, at least the fact that Rurik was a Scandinavian is a myth. There are written sources (from about 1000) mentioning famous leaders of the Normans of that time, they describe in detail the actions of the jarls who served with the Kiev princes, some of them later became kings in their homeland with the help of the same princes of Kiev. But the reverse process in these sources is not recorded, although the honor would be great and it would become "news number 1". So this is definitely a bullshit ...
- quote - "How could Russia, surrounded by so many enemies with powerful armies for centuries, thousands of years, become Russia?" - read
even a series of novels "The Sovereigns of Moscow" by the now late Dmitry Balashov, even one of them is "the burden of power" and this question will become clearer for you.
- As for Pushkin and Karamzin, what are you talking about? What did Pushkin write somewhere that there were only Slavs in the Horde? I didn’t read it ...

[Tartary]

Quote: Gogh

- As for Pushkin and Karamzin, what are you talking about? What did Pushkin write somewhere that there were only Slavs in the Horde? I didn’t read it ...

Pushkin is a genius! And he wrote in his poems and poems a lot of things that relate to history ... Another question is how accurately these of his works correspond to real historical events ...

Quote: Gogh

read at least a series of novels "The Sovereigns of Moscow" by the now late Dmitry Balashov, even one of them is "the burden of power" and this question will become clearer for you.

Hardly ... Surely D. Balashov is an alien? Did he have the opportunity to be a chronicler of all those events?
Or part of the unfinished chronicles of all centuries miraculously ended up in his hands?

Today's interpretations of the history of Pts are similar to religious options - choose the option and you want to believe, you want to not believe ...
Something like this:

Quote: Passing by

Whether it is good or bad, let everyone decide for himself, but let him remember that without this there would be no Russia.

[Sandov]

Tartary,
Marco Orbini traveled through the lands of Great Tartaria. There are curious facts in his work.

[Passing]

Quote: Tartary

Was the history of Russia rewritten by the Germans or not?

The history of Russia was rewritten continuously, but the closer to the present, the more modest the "subscripts" were, for it became more and more difficult to ignore what had been written by predecessors. Therefore, the Germans could only fine-tune the history, but they could not rewrite it completely.

Quote: Tartary

Ancient books burned under Peter 1 by his decree or not?

Ancient books have been burning since the time of Alexandria, which does not prevent us from more or less knowing the history of the ancient world. In addition to burnt books, there are other books, foreign ones, for example, there is archeology in the end, which is much more accurate than any book.

Quote: Tartary

How Russia, surrounded by centuries, thousands of years, so many enemies with powerful armies, was able to become Russia?

A force was found in Russia, fragmented by the appanage princelings, which made the correct conclusions from the lessons of REAL history, from the fact of the enslavement of the Horde of Russia. These are Moscow princes, the very ones whom the liberals call nothing other than "bloody usurpers and stranglers of freedom." They clearly understood that in order for the Slavic peoples not to be slaves and vassals of alien cultures, Russia must be united at ANY PRICE. If a prince or a city does not want to give up its independence, then his rights and desires are wrong, we must drown in blood, we will drown. End justifies the means. Whether it is good or bad, let everyone decide for himself, but let him remember that without this there would be no Russia.

[BruderV]

Quote: Passing by

These are Moscow princes,

Are you Moscow alone? And Tver?

[Passing]

Tver in fact blew the fight for the championship, in the dry, they didn’t lure the patriarch, they didn’t capture the towns, the bombastic losers are shorter, what can I write about them)))

[Prometey]

The article is definitely a plus. How much can one actually distort our history, over the centuries to bring up a feeling of national inferiority - the conquests of the Mongols, the Tatar-Mongol yoke? Maybe you should, your mother, admit that all this is one of the versions, not supported either by documents or materially. Why is it still not written in history textbooks, counterarguments in favor of the general possibilities of the so-called "Mongol invasion", or is it beneficial for someone that we consider ourselves a flawed nation since antiquity?

[Parabelum]

Do you really consider yourself a flawed nation? Those. are you proud of anything?

[Prometey]

Parabelum
Well, certainly not the Mongol yoke

[Parabelum]

to identify oneself with an event is a little abnormal.

[avt]

Quote: Parabelum

Do you really consider yourself a flawed nation? Those. are you proud of anything?

This is not a matter of inferiority, although Miller's story is an inoculation of inferiority and the subsequent “enlightenment of the slave people.” Of course, the passionary theory warms the soul. Gumilyov was an outstanding man! right, think about it, because there are more serious reasons for the events described than the Sun Passionary Strike, from which the nomads instantly received their sight, gathered, trained and rushed to the last sea. But if you look from a different angle? If Chingiz saddled, maybe by right of inheritance, the state {for example, I just do not believe that Khazaria collapsed from the fall of two cities, like this, immediately after the campaign Svyatoslav took and fled} and his descendant successfully blended into civil strife on one of the sides. Then everything gets on clear rails and a dashing cavalry winter raid with an exact indication of the direction, and the elimination of precisely those from Chernigov and those who sympathize with them, well,finally its untouched - Smolensk, Novgorod. And what about the subsequent dispensation of the Russian Land? Well, yes, the tax for military aid had to be paid. Well, compared to how Peter "enlightenedly" occupied his state with his army and took such taxes that no Mongols dreamed of "Europeanizing" the country "yoke" of flowers.

[Parabelum]

No, the person really writes that

Quote: Prometey

so that we consider ourselves a flawed nation since antiquity?

he does not give any theories. He considers himself flawed, because in ancient times he was conquered by the Mongols.

[Passing]

Quote: Prometey

How much can actually distort our history, for centuries to instill a sense of national inferiority - the conquests of the Mongols, the Tatar-Mongol yoke

To ignore unpleasant facts is to be like an ostrich. You should not hide your dark pages of history, like a naughty baby, but study, draw conclusions, change yourself so that this does not happen again. You know this saying - for a beaten, two unbeaten are given, a very wise idea. But this only works when the "beaten" goes to the rocking chair, and does not pretend that nothing like that happened, and everything is just fine with him.

[Yoshkin Kot]

nd do not lay out your personal inferiority complex on the Russian People
I want to remind you that we repaid the debt, taking the lion's share of the inheritance of the Horde

[Dmitry Desnyansky]

Russ Kiev or Chernigov

Thanks to the author for the truth, and then there are cadres who claim that the Bulgars lived in Chernigov

[Volkhov]

Tatars (Russians of Siberia) withdrew from the scene because of about the same disaster as recently in Chelyabinsk. When it comes to the Urals what happened, they will also go "to conquer Moscow", and the paratroopers have already been sent to prevent the invasion ...

[Passing]

Where are the traces of that powerful industry that has armed thousands and thousands of fighters with good iron weapons?

Why should a bandit plow, forge, weave when it is possible to impose tribute to plowmen, forged women and weavers? Therefore, look for traces of industry in China and Central Asia. Somewhere in Khorezm and other cities famous for their gunsmiths.

How did a handful of wild shepherds suddenly turn into skilled warlords ... warriors?

The answer is Chigiskhan. There is a lot of evidence in history that the role of the individual in history is enormous. An outstanding personality can change the vector of development of vast territories, remember Peter the Great.

How could entire armies overcome the distance from Mongolia to Ryazan and Vladimir?

Not purely warriors wandered, but the whole clan, with all the property. and for nomads, distances do not play any role, the main thing is that the animals have something to eat.

How could the wild steppes overcome the mighty Chinese civilization, defeat the states of Central Asia, crush the warlike Polovtsian princes and defeat the Russian principalities?

The answer is obvious, there were no mythical powerful Chinese and Polovtsians, and the Russians as a whole were not so good militarily. On average, a Russian city held a siege of no more than a week. For example, Ryazan - five days, Vladimir - five days, Suzdal - six. And these are one of the most powerful cities in Russia! There were certainly worthy examples of military skill - Kozelsk, Kiev. Kozelsk is especially striking. The city lasted seven weeks! Such a small town that the Tatars could take only by combining all the forces that came to Russia! If every Russian city were to die, as in Kozelsk, then there would be no yoke.

[Yoshkin Kot]

and the Mongol-Tatars at that time were no longer the same after the storming of cities

[avt]

Quote: Passing by

The answer is Chigiskhan. There is a lot of evidence in history that the role of the individual in history is enormous. An outstanding personality can change the vector of development of vast territories, remember Peter the Great.

The development vector was laid by his grandfather Misha, continued by father Alexei, brother Fedor and sister Sophia. Do not learn history according to Akunin, Tolstoy. Peter drove all the reforms at a frantic pace, unlike his predecessors, without much need due to his personal nature. The costs are not comparable with the acquisitions. Take the Prut campaign and its consequences for the half-rotten Black Sea fleet, Taganrog and Azov.

[Passing]

Has Peter laid a clear vector for the West? As far as I know, the dad and grandfather of Peter, except in the military field, did not adopt anything from the west. Obviously, it was Peter who broke the centuries-old foundations on one knee, changed the very essence of Russia, Europeanized it, made it a secular state, broke the sacred connection between the elite people and much more.

[avt]

Quote: Passing by

As far as I know, the dad and grandfather of Peter, except in the military field, did not adopt anything from the west. Obviously, it was Peter who broke the centuries-old foundations on one knee, changed the very essence of Russia, Europeanized it, made it a secular state, broke the sacred connection between the elite people and much more.

You are mistaken. It was papa who first dressed the children in a German dress, the elite dressed in Polish fashion, the first theater, home, he started. Well, the struggle on the religious front is the Old Believers, which, since then, supposedly self-burned from longing, is generally a separate issue, therefore, for the time being bashfully eyes downcast say - we did not have the Inquisition, the fires did not burn, as it itself ignited. Very interesting documents were published on the trip of the Patriarch of Antioch to Russia during the time of Alexei, a separate book was published according to the documents of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the English versions, written by his son, also by priest Father Pavel, look for a very sensible book, amazing everyday details, until the tsar is in the service of Zvenigorod Nikon called the son of a blyazh. Well, Peter put an end to it, abolished the patriarchate and appointed himself the head of the church in the Anglican manner. Here excuse me, even the Politburo is resting, all the more there is no secular state. And about the rupture of the elite with the people, the true truth came sideways by Romanov. Not without reason, Nikolashka wrote in the census questionnaire that he was the Russian land, his native language was German.

[PPL]

Quote: Passing by

dad and grandfather of Peter, except in the military field, did not adopt anything from the west

So, therefore, it was Petrusha who brought Germans to Kukuy in the infancy of the Germans, so that later, when he was a little older, there was someone to run to visit ...

[Passing]

Quote: PPZ

So, therefore, it’s Petrusha who brought Germans to Kukuy in infancy

Quote: avt

It was exactly daddy who first dressed the children in a German dress, the elite changed into Polish fashion, the first theater, home, he started

Well, there was the only foreign settlement in all of Russia, in fact the place of residence of embassies and overseas merchants, well, maybe there was something else in Novgorod, and that’s all. It did not affect anything. Foreigners separately, Russian separately. So are the tsar’s children dressed in European fashion and going to the only theater in Russia. Metropolitan exotic, quirks of the rich, anything but a vector of development.

[avt]

Quote: Passing by

Metropolitan exotic, quirks of the rich, anything but a vector of development.

I understand that it’s difficult to part with a beautiful myth.

Quote: Passing by

Well, there was the only foreign settlement in all of Russia, in fact the place of residence of embassies and overseas merchants, well, maybe there was something else in Novgorod, and that’s all. It did not affect anything. Foreigners separately, Russian separately.

Isn't it funny yourself? Well, how did it not affect, if it was for change that was introduced? After all, the rest of the era remaining until 1917, the elite and the exotic lived separately, the people lived separately. Well, how did it end? And now, history teaches that it does not teach anything. The only question is the pace of change, one to introduce in an evolutionary way, the other in a revolutionary way.

[Passing]

Quote: avt

I understand that it’s difficult to part with a beautiful myth.

This myth fits well with petty everyday facts, but your reasoning is not. The facts are as follows: before Peter the boyars were bearded, walked in beaver coats and drank tea in log cabins, everything was strictly like hundreds of years ago, everything was strictly according to the ancestors' precepts, and after Peter the nobles walked clean-shaven, in European clothes and drank coffee in stone palaces built by Italian architects.

Quote: avt

Well, how did it not affect, if it was for change that was introduced

What was introduced? Sloboda? Nobody introduced it purposefully, it grew by itself, the embassy arrived, foreign gunsmiths arrived, foreign casters arrived, foreign military specialists arrived, and so a settlement was formed.
To influence is to change the lifestyle of Russians, which naturally did not stem from the mere presence of a settlement or theater. Even in a nightmare it was impossible to imagine what a noble nobleman began to ape after the uncharacter, it would be an unprecedented loss of honor.

[avt]

Quote: Passing by

What was introduced? Sloboda? Nobody introduced it purposefully, it grew by itself, the embassy arrived, foreign gunsmiths arrived, foreign casters arrived, foreign military specialists arrived, and so a settlement was formed.

“- Brick for no reason at all, - the unknown interrupted impressively, - will never fall on anyone's head.” MA Bulgakov. Well, read the whole commentary and not just what you like.

[BruderV]

Quote: Passing by

made her a secular state

For understanding. A secular state is when the church is separated from this very state. Well, at least not atheists wrote down Petrusha. Changed the essence of Russia is this about? Serfdom only intensified, if anyone changed, then only the nobility, which generally began to speak different languages ​​with the people (in the truest sense of the word)

[Passing]

A secular state is, first and foremost, the absolute supremacy of civil power. The unconditional primacy of the interests of civil authority over the church. Where is the church at the same time, it is separated from the state, or in the servants in power, these are all legal subtleties. And if the church under Peter was not legally separated from the state (read from state administration), this does not mean that it was not separated in fact. When the bells are re-melted to the cannons, when the king rewrites the church canon, when the king of the patriarchs appoints, this is of course nonsense, facts that are essentially meaningless, here is a manifesto with beautiful monograms and inspiring seals, yes, you immediately understand what finally happened .

Quote: BruderV

Changed the essence of Russia is this about?

Yes, about a trifle, for example, a nonsense change of ideological and spiritual priorities - before, the experience and traditions of the ancestors were the pillar of self-awareness, and after the West. We still look to the West, imitate the West, measure ourselves in the West.

Quote: BruderV

Serfdom only intensified

It radically changed the character, if before there was a mutually binding agreement between the boyar and the slave, then after the relationship they became one-sided, in the Western manner - the cattle owes to the master, and the master does not.

[BruderV]

Quote: Passing by

A secular state is, first and foremost, the absolute supremacy of civil power.

Let us not confuse the enlightened absolutism of the 18th century with modern civil society. Well funny Chesslov. In your opinion, the fact that Petrusha took over the church is equal to freedom of religion, the abolition of church tithe and the mass transition of the population to the ideology of secular humanism? You have fun here.

[Passing]

Quote: BruderV

Let us not confuse the enlightened absolutism of the 18th century with modern civil society.

I’m not writing a dissertation here, but briefly, very briefly setting forth my opinion, so there is no need to find fault with the accuracy of the wording that what a civil society without Hare Krishnas and homosexuals

[BruderV]

Quote: Passing by

what a civil society without Hare Krishnas and homosexuals

Do you think then there were few fools? On the count just planted more often. As for the wording, it simply hurts the eye when modern realities try to measure the distant times, this does not bring their understanding and appreciation closer ..

[avt]

Quote: Passing by

A secular state is, first and foremost, the absolute supremacy of civil power. The unconditional primacy of the interests of civil authority over the church. Where is the church at the same time, it is separated from the state,

To talk about the secularism of Petya’s state in the light of an all-drunken council, communion in the Church of England and appointing yourself as viceroy of God on earth and abolishing the patriarchate is strong! Here I am right to be silent, here not a single argument of the fanatical faith in the messianism of Petrushino will pierce.

[Passing]

Quote: avt

in the light of the most drunken council, communion in the Church of England and the appointment of himself viceroy of God on earth and the abolition of the patriarchate

What a formalist you are, look at the external side of events, but you don’t notice the true background - ah, Petruha took communion, ah declared himself a patriarch, so the bastard built no secular state, but dreamed of becoming god-like, dreamed of sanctifying his authority with church authority! A fundamentally erroneous interpretation, in fact, Peter did not strengthen the power of the church, but destroyed it, it was for this that spread rot and dispersed the patriarchs, it was for this that he carried out church reform in order to remove the influence of the church on the state, to remove its dependence on the churchmen deeply alien to its mentality.

[BruderV]

Quote: Passing by

Where are the traces of that powerful industry that has armed thousands and thousands of fighters with good iron weapons?

And so, after 300 years, the future ignoramuses will be perplexed whence the Chechens, who took less than a million industry to war with huge Russia for more than 10 years.

[Prometey]

Quote: Passing by

There is a lot of evidence in history that the role of the individual in history is enormous. An outstanding personality can change the vector of development of vast territories, remember Peter the Great.

The role of personality is great, but not omnipotent. Hitler could not have done a tenth of what he had done if the Germans themselves were not ready to denounce the Versailles Peace.
Peter actually did nothing supernova - the reform of the army began even with his father, when they began to introduce the regiments of the new system, in terms of state. management also nothing revolutionary was done - just streamlined the state. apparatus.
Perhaps one could recognize the great genius of Genghis Khan, but not among the Mongols and at the wrong time.

[Marek Rozny]

Nomadic steppes of Turkic origin even before Chinggis Khan created powerful empires more than once, with the Chinese, Romans and Arabs having to reckon with their armies.
The Xiongnu hammered China, forcing it to pay tribute. Then the descendants of these Huns, known to Europe as the Huns, soaked Rome, forcing them to pay tribute as well. In the 5th century, the Turkic Khaganate arose - one of the first (if not the very first) full-fledged empires on the territory of the modern Russian Federation. And then smaller kaganates arose on the territory of the Eurasian Steppe. Genghis Khan did not invent anything new. He simply again forced the steppe inhabitants to mobilize for "campaigns to the Last Sea", taking as a basis the state administration of the previous states of the Eurasian nomads. In principle, this scheme worked until the elimination of the khan's power in Kazakhstan in the 19th century.
Nomadic empires are characterized by rapid growth, but also no less rapid decay due to the fact that there was no more or less normal mechanism for the transfer of power. Numerous descendants of the founder of the kaganate usually wallowed in civil strife (like the descendants of Rurik) and as a result, all the hordes crumbled into small uluses.

[Ingvald_Bueny]

Quote: Marek Rozny

Nomadic steppes of Turkic origin even before Chinggis Khan created powerful empires more than once, with the Chinese, Romans and Arabs having to reckon with their armies.

When did the Romans have to reckon with them?

Quote: Marek Rozny

Huns were fucking China, forcing him to pay tribute. Then the descendants of these Huns, known to Europe as the Huns, wet Rome, forcing them to pay tribute as well.

The Huns invaded the Roman Empire when it was already falling apart, thanks to the "Germans" (Celts, Alemanni, Vandals and Rugs).
As for the Huns and Xiongnu, as well as their descendants of the Hungarians-Magyars, not everything is so simple, some scholars in the west paint them as a Mongoloid racial type, but as you know the Turan Turks, this is a European racial type, especially since it is not known whether the Huns were a fragment of Scythia or not, their language was Turkic or Finnish or "Scythian". There are a lot of questions on this topic.

Quote: Marek Rozny

In the 5th century, the Turkic Haganate arose - one of the first (if not the very first) full-fledged empires in the territory of the modern Russian Federation.

Compare the map of the so-called "Turkic Kaganate" and the map of the Russian Federation as they coincide within the borders. You will see that the "Turkic Kaganate" fits into only along the southern border of Russia and slightly goes to the center (just a little bit). So to say that he was a full-fledged empire (the Turks at that time did not know such words, as well as the state system itself) within the borders of the Russian Federation is not productive. The first empire on the territory of the Russian Federation and of the "Turkic Kaganate" itself was the Great Scythia / Sarmatia.

[Passing]

Quote: Prometey

Hitler could not have done a tenth of what he had done if the Germans themselves were not ready to denounce the Versailles world ... Perhaps the great genius of Genghis Khan could be recognized, but not among the Mongols and at the wrong time.

Genghis Khan offered the nomads exactly what they wanted everything with their soul, but what these nomads could not have in principle - he offered them a way to get rich without changing their lifestyle. He offered to eat sweetly without picking the ground like some dung-peasant, offered a way to get cool things not humped behind a loom and an anvil. Just go with him, and just take all the wealth from the unworthy of his stupid sedentary.
But Genghis Khan was actually a genius not even for this reason, and before and after him this thought visited the heads of many and many, and he was a genius because he was able to make a stable self-developing structure out of a gang of raiders, which in itself increased its own strength, for by refusing to massacre the enemy, and including him in his army, which in itself nominated sensible commanders, because the stupid ones were immediately chopped off their heads, which protected themselves from decay, because the responsibility for cowardice was collective, and no "kind and understanding" to other people's incompetence and cowardice did not exist in principle, everyone felt their personal responsibility for everyone.

[politruk419]

The myth of the constant struggle of the Russians with the "Pecheneg hordes" was created later.

The authors of the cartoon "Prince Vladimir"
Rus is an Ostrogothic German-speaking tribe. Not because they descended from the Visigoths, but because they did not go to Rum and Andalus with them. To the Slavs had nothing to do. But this is already known. The author has not discovered any America. The toponyms that existed in the northern Black Sea coast until the twentieth century, almost all had German-speaking roots, but were shifted to the Slavic way. The Russes themselves (Rugs, Rossomons, according to the archbishop Adalbert)) left the ancient Rusich only a name and a sedentary man, having dissolved in the clearings at the turn of the 6-7th centuries.
Scythians are the same descendants of the Ostrogoths as the Rus. Here the author is right.
But delirium about the advantages and disadvantages of bows and the weak organization of the "nomadic" empire of Genghis Khan is simply embarrassing and boring to read.
This attempt to bind a hedgehog and a snake was especially amused

We are told fairy tales about iron discipline, the decimal system of organization, the "Mongolian bows", the horse corps, etc. However, the discipline was iron in the army of any then state, the decimal system of division of the troops was known in Russia long before the arrival of the "Mongols", and Russian complex bows beat much farther and more powerful than the simple bows of nomads (like the bows of the English Robin Hoods).

And under Eysencourt, apparently "Robin Hoods" mowed down the selected French cavalry from the DShK machine guns ...

And so all the countless works of art, novels and films about “Mongol warriors” destroy everything in their path, about “kurultai”, “onons and kerulens” can be safely called one of the most dangerous and harmful myths for Russia and the Russian people. How was it created? This can be understood by seeing, as it has been for several decades, gradually, gradually, creating a black myth about the Hitler and Stalin regimes being the same, about the USSR (Stalin) striving to seize all of Europe, about Soviet soldiers who had raped all German women on the way to Berlin, etc. .

Well yes. Exceptional liberalists Gumilev, Karamzin, Kostomarov, Solovyov, Nestor, and the most famous of the liberals, the liberalist A.S. Pushkin, who joined them ......... so we found out who and where the shit in the textbook on the History of the USSR for grade 7.
PS The article is about nothing .. The author does not like onon and kerulens .... apparently he has in his hands documents confirming the version of the Indus and Ganges. And what, in the end, genetics quite seriously say that initially we are all Ethiopian-Somali. Well, chimpanzees in combination. I would better publish the geopolitical delights of our contemporaries in the place of the editors of VO; at least it’s clear what they’re talking about and everyone’s crap is visible without a microscope. Better is the news of the exhibition in Abu Dhabi through a quality insider.

[Karlsonn]

Another nonsense, I'm afraid to imagine what will happen in the spring.

devoted to the cycle of these "historical" articles.

[Storyteller]

Quote: Gogh

Pictures from Russian chronicles give evidence that both fighting parties are armed the same way - this is a chronicle, not Arkady Mamontov’s report from the scene of the battle — they were written decades after the events and are illustrated by isographers who couldn’t see how they taught him a living warrior to draw a warrior according to a pattern as he depicted, and to seek historical authenticity in these miniatures is how to study the war in Vietnam from Hollywood films.

Of course, the iconographers and chroniclers and those who ordered the chronicles were idiots. We are smart - we have a TV set. We know how Rambo differs from Sarmat. Rambo has, of course, a bow with a grenade, while Sarmat has a Kalash. And our ancestors - well, what to take from them. We were not lucky with our ancestors. True, how to explain that for three hundred years the Mongols have not riveted their children here, I don’t know. Maybe they deliberately drove to China before Russia in order to learn good manners, or were their spouses harsh? Like, on a business trip, to the left - down. And security briefs with a lock. Question questions!

[Yoshkin Kot]

n-dya, how much historical vlasovshchina on the forum

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Yoshkin Cat

n-dya, how much historical vlasovshchina on the forum

ashamed to read this
I propose to coordinate in PM and write to MEGASTASTY for a couple that the Earth is flat, lies on whales, elephants and a turtle - I am already picking up the evidence - WEIGHT

[Marek Rozny]

If you need to add an article to the section on the origin of whales, elephants and turtles - let me know. Ready to help. Australian Jews tried to steal the truth from us, but now we need to tell everyone the truth - they were Kazakhs (Kitbai, Sloanobek, and Turtle-jean) in fancy dress.

[Karlsonn]

Marek Rozny

there will already be three of us !!!
I’m ready to provide evidence that I wasn’t in Detroit and finally the United States, the plane was landed somewhere near Zhmerinka, and then we were transported along props, there are no American continents at all! This is Surkov propaganda !!!

[Igarr]

I'm bastard ..
from fans of "anti-Fomenkovschina". They are exactly the same ... Tolkienists and followers of Sauron with hobbits - like those who say - there was no ...Tatar-Mongol (or Mongol-Tatar) invasion.
INVASION - was not.
A CIVIL WAR - B S LA !!!! Separatism - WAS !!!
That is the question.
In this war of the 13th century a mass of people, a mass of people took part .. Provinces (and whoever wants to - consider them states - Khorezm there, Khazaria there, Bulgaria).
According to the results of the civil war - the Golden Horde won. With the capital - in Tsaritsyno, in Sarai .....
Explain why? Because in the center of the earth ... it turned out. On a giant waterway.
Kipachaki - Polovtsy ... took a very active part. Now they are the same Kazakhs, Bashkirs, Udmurts ...
Yes, the entire population of the former USSR.
...
In Europe, where there was no turning around ... from peasants, knights and kingdoms ... the knight was given an inheritance - a feud, called.
Try the knight (and in the general case - the nobleman) - buck up ... Feod - back and ... went, went, went ... to go for a walk.
That’s why they are used to obedience. To order.
Now consider the Great Steppe.
Well, they gave one to a feudal lord .. to a chapter ... of course I say - a middle zhuz - a feud. The size of two Italy. Or four of Belgium. And the way of managing is nomadic. A generation has passed.
Finally, the conditionally supreme overlord calls on this chief of the clan to perform feudal service. What will answer him - a new chapter, weakly believing in the granted lands? Do not know?
So I will say .... the same as they say now-the former republics of the USSR.
We are on our own ... and you go ... go, in short.
Find me first in the steppe.
Darius, Xerxes ... tried ... to search the steppes in the steppes.
...
And here you are ... about the role of personality in history.
...
United gang ... can break the bank. And then it will crumble. He will shoot himself.
Maybe unite. After .... a certain period of time.
..
But such ... sporadic ... occurrences ... empires
and Genghis Khan - we do not see.
Immediately and forever. Train.
Not Genghis Khan ... but Bismarck, damn it, some kind.
...
Dreamers ......

[avt]

Quote: Storyteller

Maybe they specially, before Russia, drove to China to learn good manners, or were they severely married? Like, on a business trip, to the left - nizya. And security briefs with a padlock. Question questions!

Not sterilized, so as not to be distracted from the campaign to the last sea

[DeerIvanovich]

about kotyara (Yoshkin cat) pulled his: Carlson and political instructor, well, trolls, welcome

[Karlsonn]

Quote: DeerIvanovich

well trolls welcome

skipping school is not good.

If you love fairy tales so much, then for God's sake.
But just do not meddle in science with your fabulous delirium.

[DeerIvanovich]

Quote: Karlsonn

skipping school is not good.

Duc, in Soviet times I didn’t feel like it, the teachers taught interesting things, and therefore did not skip.
yes I love fairy tales and so what? But I can’t stand Krivdu’s spirit!
this is when I climbed into science ??? What do you mean, we have an honorary professor of awesome historical sciences? and am I stopping you from speaking the Truth?

[Karlsonn]

Quote: DeerIvanovich

But I can’t stand Krivdu’s spirit!

commendable.

Quote: DeerIvanovich

What do you mean, we have an honorary professor of awesome historical sciences?

postgraduate study at the Department of History offered, did not go, so not a professor.

Quote: DeerIvanovich

and am I stopping you from speaking the Truth?

don't bother me; even your rudeness does not touch.

[DeerIvanovich]

and where did I get you naughty? and their rudeness in relation to others interferes?

[Karlsonn]

Quote: DeerIvanovich

and where did I get you naughty?

Quote: DeerIvanovich

about kotyara (Yoshkin cat) pulled his: Carlson and political instructor, well, trolls, welcome

Do you always start communicating with strangers this way?

Quote: DeerIvanovich

and their rudeness in relation to others interferes?

no, it does not interfere; to shatter in response to rudeness and rudeness - not trained.

[Karlsonn]

Actually from fans to be rude to strangers, I expected a more violent reaction
- just a couple of minuses?
- burn!

[Ruslan67]

Karlsonn,

Quote: Karlsonn

just a couple of minuses?
- burn!

Hi The problem with such personalities is that they operate within the framework of the established program and therefore are not even able to be rude gracefully - the maximum is three words in different variations. So do not wait for annealing

[DeerIvanovich]

You were so affected by the statement of fact? what is your right to be offended, no one is going to take it from you.

[romb]

The paganism of the Polovtsians practically did not differ from the Slavic ..

If we take such a medieval document as "Codex Cumanicus" as a basis, then the differences between the two languages ​​are enormous. And this is natural, if only because they belong to two different language (groups) families. The Polovtsian (Kipchak) language belongs to the Türkic languages ​​included in the Altai language family.

worshiped the heavenly father and mother earth

Does this mean that in the early Middle Ages the Slavs were Tengrians?

[Karlsonn]

Quote: romb

Does this mean that in the early Middle Ages the Slavs were Tengrians?

Everyone knows that our ancestors flew from outer space, settled in Atlantis, later moved to Hyperborea, and from there to Kiev.

The outcome of the Hyperboreans.

[BruderV]

Quote: Karlsonn

and from there to Kiev.

The outcome of the Hyperboreans.

Do not forget about the powerful ukrov who built the pyramids

[Karlsonn]

Quote: BruderV

Do not forget about the powerful ukrov

ancient ukry generally flew into the solar system first, directly on the spaceship "Earth", but --- shhh-s-s, this is the sacred secret of the ancient ukry.

[Octavian avgust]

Well, every nation has such historians and falsifiers. Many governments are comfortable with such theories before their economic and social insolvency!

[Karlsonn]

Octavian avgust

in Ukraine they release their analogue of "Soldier of Fortune", one of the issues I accidentally fell into my hands, what was my amazement when I read an article authored by one of the modern Ukrainian historians (with a scientific degree), in which he "proves" that the first the people who tamed the horses were the Ukrainians.

[Octavian avgust]

Academic degrees today in the post-Soviet space is not a fashionable trend. Where all politicians do not spit is taken for granted!

[Marek Rozny]

Carlson, correct about taming the horse. This process was everywhere in the steppe. And the Iranian-speaking Scythians, who at that time lived in Ukraine, and in Russia and Kazakhstan, were precisely the first to tame a horse, precisely along the territory of the Eurasian Steppe. The earliest proven signs of taming a horse until recently were Ukrainian. But a few years ago, exactly the same artifacts (but a little older) were found in Kazakhstan. Not much younger are traces of the domestication of horses found in Bashkiria. Tomorrow, archaeologists can again find the fact that they were the first to be tamed in the Ukrainian steppes. Everything is possible. But the fact that it was the Scythians of the Eurasian Steppe who first tamed the horse is an unambiguous fact. By the way, IMHO, this fact influenced the fact that the Scythians were divided into two branches - those who remained settled and then merged with the Slavic peoples, and those who abandoned the hillforts (including Arkaim, which became a fetish among some Slavic-Aryans) and began to engage in livestock breeding and subsequently merged with proto-Turkic tribes.
Out-of-range animal husbandry was more profitable in the steppe (now scientifically called "the zone of risky agriculture"), and therefore the ancient cities of the Scythians were covered with weeds. And it is precisely for this reason that the Scythian genes are present in both the Slavs and the seemingly alien Kyrgyz. This is from two different cultural branches of the Scythians.

[Karlsonn]

Marek Rozny

Quote: Marek Rozny

Carlson, correct about taming the horse.

it's not me who needs to be corrected !!! and a "historian" who embossed an article.

Quote: Marek Rozny

The earliest proven signs of taming a horse until recently were Ukrainian.

the article focuses on the fact that Ukrainians were the first to tame horses!
it was proved.
to the question:
- When did Ukrainians appear as a people in this world?
stubborn descendants of the theory of ancient ukrov react in every way

[Marek Rozny]

Carlson, I get it) just put it wrong) It's to blame)

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Marek Rozny

just put it wrong) It's to blame)

yes, everything is fine, I am already tired of fighting with illiteracy in this cycle of "Fomensky" articles

and the nonsense of Ukrainian "scientists" proving that Jesus Christ was a Ukrainian just drives me out of myself.

I recommend watching a video that I hung below, the author is a professional military historian.

[Ingvald_Bueny]

The Iranian-speaking Scythians are the tribes of the northern Aryan peoples for the Hellenes. Iran-Arin-Ariy. Read Herodotus. Everything is written there. The Scythian gene R1A1 is often conventionally called "Aryan" in the West.

[Ruslan67]

Quote: Karlsonn

the first people who tamed horses were Ukrainians.

And Ksenia Sobchak is the crown of this great experiment.

[baltika-18]

Quote: Ruslan67

And Ksenia Sobchak is the crown of this great experiment.

Ksenia is the crown of the experiment of her dad Toli, the first mentor of our president.

[Sandov]

Karlsonn,
And what could be such in this world. How many civilizations on our planet? Artifacts say they were. Space is like a hologram or a hard disk of a computer.

[stilliaga]

Quote: Karlsonn

Everyone knows that our ancestors flew from space

from the constellation Cygnus, no?

[Karlsonn]

Quote: stylliaga

from the constellation Cygnus, no?

--- important pacing, answer ---

... How and when did our First Ancestors appear on Midgard-earth?

About 460521 years ago at the North Pole of Midgard-Earth Wightman landed (a large spaceship - the uterus), which received damage in outer space.

Then the appearance of Midgard-Earth was very different from the modern outlines of the continents (continents). At the North Pole there was a mainland, which our Ancestors called Daarius, since the First Settlers were from the Da Aryan Family with the Star System of the Constellation Zimun (Heavenly Cow or Ursa Minor), and their Sun was called Tara (now the Polar Star).
For reference: the Yarila-Sun system, which includes the Midgard Earth, also belongs to the Zimun Constellation.

The families of the Aryans arrived from the Constellation of Orion 273897 years ago.
Childbirth Swag - blue-eyed Svyatorusses flew to Midgard from the Swan Constellation (Makosh or Ursa Major) 211689 years ago.
Later, after them, on the Midgard-Earth, the brown-eyed sons of the Rassen Genus landed from the Constellation of the Race 185769 years ago ....


the address of the madhouse where the loonies are driven like this:

https://radosvet.net/9593-xarijcy.html

[Marek Rozny]

Well, of course this is generally a madhouse))))
And here the author asks the question - were the Mongols (and he understands by the historical word "Mongols" precisely the present Khalkha) in Russia. And since there really are no traces of Khalkha in Russia, he is looking for an answer in the fact that there was no invasion, and therefore attracts all the inconvenient moments to the Slavs. At the same time, even the most Mongolian Mongols, who will die for the fix idea about Genghis Khan, do not argue with the fact that 90% of the army of Genghis Khan and his state apparatus consisted of the Turks (10% they left for themselves, because then their whole great history will break. ). The only thing that the Khalkha themselves claim in the history of the conquest of the western lands is that Genghis Khan and some military leaders were Mongols. The rest they give to the Turks.
The idea of ​​Mongols (instead of Turks) in Russia appeared as a result of bullshit. But this garbage was entrenched in history, and then even uncontested, so as not to show some peoples of the Russian Empire and the USSR "cooler" than the main ethnos. And now the Russians understand that some kind of garbage with these "Mongols", from this comes the search. Sooner or later, this topic will settle down in Russia. I am sure that a very important moment is now taking place in Russian historiography - through the crucible of folk history, disputes with academicians, studying the chronicles of neighboring peoples, Russia will acquire a normal sane history, in which there will already be much less "misunderstandings".
In Kazakhstan in the 90s there was also a surge of folk historians, I myself met with Murad Aji, was fascinated by his theory that everything and everything came from the Türks. But then the vast majority of the population advanced significantly in terms of studying their own history and everything fell into place. Fortunately, the state is really working on this issue painstakingly - all the documents related to our history in Armenia, China, Iran, the Vatican are being studied, which in Soviet times were not even translated into Russian (and even less so into Kazakh).
Now the Russians are looking. And they will certainly find it.

[Black]

Do not fight, be patient.
The guarantor of peace, stability and constitution yesterday ordered to write a single textbook of history.
So make peace.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Chen

Do not fight, be patient.

[Marek Rozny]

started to watch. check it out now.

[Marek Rozny]

In principle, I did not hear anything new. But! For the first time I heard that someone so briefly, clearly and fully presented this information. A man with developed logic and good knowledge of the subject. Thanks for the video. I downloaded it myself.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Marek Rozny

For the first time I heard that someone so briefly, clearly and fully presented this information. A man with developed logic and good knowledge of the subject

professional military historian. Boris Yulin.
if I’m interested in his videos (I’ll immediately make a reservation for the popularization of history, that is, very superficial), then I have a bunch of them, from the history of the Cossacks to Port Arthur, and there are his books where everything is examined in more depth.
I personally became acquainted with the activities of Boris Yulin at first when he defeated Pikul to the smallest extent, then I began to monitor his activities - in my humble opinion, he is one of the most appropriate historians who are not afraid to speak on the screen.
despite the fact that, as far as I know, he is very ill, he makes every possible effort to ensure that young people know the history of their country, and not arrange dances with tambourines like this article.

[Marek Rozny]

Boris Yulin - he remembered his last name. I’ll try to read or watch it again. smart speeches are always helpful to listen to.

[bandabas]

In my opinion, everything is clear. Evidence, archaeological, written (I mean "godless Tatars)", etc. no (including in Mongolia). But according to the chronicles, Chinggis Khan was not a Mongoloid. Why dig, what was 800 years ago. Let's take a look at the 20th and the coming 21st century. Here, too, a lot of things are buried, and they are trying to hide.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: bandabas

Evidence, archaeological, written (I mean "godless Tatars)", etc. no (including in Mongolia).

There is! Come to Kiev and I personally will take you to a museum where you will see archaeological evidence of the capture of Kiev by Batu Khan troops.
As for the written sources - there are hundreds of them, starting from manuscripts, Catholic monks, ending with the word - kamikaze.
With all due respect - give yourself the trouble to study this issue and then to retract the poppies like

Quote: bandabas

But according to the chronicles, Genghis Khan was not a Mongoloid.

You will react to statements that the earth is flat.

[Misantrop]

Quote: Karlsonn

Come to Kiev and I personally will take you to a museum where you will see archaeological evidence of the capture of Kiev by Batu Khan troops.

A couple of years ago we wandered into Chersonesos for a walk. And there was an excursion nearby, to SUCH that we precipitated right on the spot. The guide broadcast about how the city of Chersonesos was taken (attention!) By the Crimean-Tatar khan Baty. This despite the fact that the Crimean Tatars did not exist in nature at that time, they appeared a little later and became isolated. And a herd of sightseeing rams listened to these noodles, silently and attentively. And the funniest thing was that all these excursionists were in Ukrainian uniforms and colonel's shoulder straps, and a chic bus with a proud inscription "Institute for the Development of Artificial Intelligence" was waiting for them at the checkpoint. So in the museum now they can cook up any kind of exposition. Let's remember the Holodomor Museum with fake photos ...

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Misantrop

how the city of Khersones was taken (attention!) by the CRIMEAN-TATAR Khan Batu.

You should have seen me during a terrible dispute, I said that Mazepa was a traitor, the head of the history department argued the opposite, after I asked to list which of his contemporaries, namely the Swedes of those events, this "scientist" read backward, to my delight - the dispute came up to the brink of assault, which I, as a Soviet athlete, would consider a personal shame.

Quote: Misantrop

And the joke itself was that all these sightseers were in Ukrainian uniform and colonel uniform.,

being at a fun our gop company somehow became interested in the origin of epaulettes and orders from the Ukrainian Cossacks at the next table, there was the end of the 90s and a brutal company of people with broken noses and ears, with a smaller number of people, didn’t get an answer, but after the proposal to demonstrate the superiority of the fighting hopak over the Soviet Sambo school and boxing - the Cossacks in uniform were dissolved the darkness of the seaside evening. Still regret

Quote: Misantrop

So the museum can now cook up any kind of exposition.

evidence of the capture of Batu Khan of Kiev is not fake!

Quote: Misantrop

Recall the Holodomor Museum with fake photographs ...

it yes The SBU and Yushchenko personally then got into a puddle in Sevastopol, it’s a pity to the rough I personally cannot put forward a lawsuit for defamation and fraud, and according to the law adopted under it, I face a sentence for denying the genocide of the Ukrainian people
- The question of who genocides this people is and for what purpose is a mystery to me.

[kush62]

Once again, a lot of noise out of thin air. From nothing, in the sense no one will know anything. Take a computer disk, erase information from it and format it several times. Well, after that you can argue hoarsely about what was on him. Everyone will prove what is beneficial to him.

[Prometey]

All ossified retrograde - read the article again. The author posed questions to which traditional historians, until now, did not give a clear answer, and even more so could provide a more or less evidence base for such a phenomenon as the Mongol invasion and the Mongol-Tatar yoke. Everything revolves around several dubious archaeological finds, a couple of historical sources and emotions of historians themselves.
Where are the medieval Mongol mines, where their forges supplied tens of thousands of warriors with excellent weapons and armor. Suppose they captured all this from poor Chinese, then forced these Chinese themselves to work for themselves. So what about the occupation corps, which could control millions of Chinese, and yet we must still weigh the total war in the West?
You read "historical" literature about the Mongols and you never cease to be amazed at inventions and fables. The armies of Genghis Khan and Batu passed up to 100 km a day (how? - but each soldier had 3 horses and they alternately rested, and they also had spare liver and spleens) - a damn figure that modern motorized armies will envy on the march. And this is in conditions of total off-road and geographical indications (but apparently the Mongols had their own GPS - navigators). But what about the convoys with food, weapons and hmm - siege vehicles (were there any such vehicles at all?) Wagons with families? They, too, could move at such a speed through the forests, through the fields? By the way, when the Mongols without exception left to conquer nations, to whom did they leave their families - women and children? But somehow the experts of the steppe peoples argued that life in the steppe was harsh and gave rise to harsh nomadic warriors, who supported the family's food. But could the Mongols really leave their families to the mercy of fate? Or took them with you on an unknown trip? But even more ridiculous - it immediately burdens the army, deprives it of maneuver (aha, like the Russian squadron at Tsushima, burdened with transports) and these are additional mouths. And the more you read, the more seemingly simple questions pop up, to which, nevertheless, there are no answers.

[Marek Rozny]

1) All of Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Mongolia are crammed with archaeological finds from the steppe mounds of nomads. In any regional museum you will be shown the remains of the weapons of the Horde nomads.
2) There are thousands of historical written sources in European and Asian languages. The fact that you can only read in Russian is your problem.
3) The ancient steppes began to mine iron one of the first in Eurasia. And this gave them a significant advantage in wars with neighbors who used bronze weapons. The ancient steppe mines are higher than the roof in Altai, in the KZ, Mongolia and Siberia - the ancestral home of the Turks.
4) The Chingizids controlled the Chinese for a hundred years, then they briefly threw off the yoke, but soon they were subjugated by the other nomads, the Manchus, who ruled them until the abdication of Pu Yi in the 20th century.
5) Kazakhs and Mongols can still roam for thousands of kilometers without a compass, sleeping bag and jeep, using horses, a yurt and orienting by stars. The mechanism is worked out to the smallest detail. The migration of Kazakhs with all kind, property and herds up to the 20th century was the same proven process.
6) It makes no sense to carry siege weapons. It is enough to have several specialists under whose leadership slaves or wars will cut such a thing at the right time and in the right place.
7) The armies of nomads never went 100% to the war. Some remained on duty at home, defending against possible attacks. Although a smaller part remained. For example, Prince Igor (the same one from "The Lay of Igor's Campaign") attacked the Polovtsi when the auls were left without protection, and the men themselves were somewhere else. But upon learning of the attack, the steppe dwellers instantly turned around and caught up with Igor on Kayala - defeated him and captured him. The angry Kipchaks wanted to kill Igor on the spot, but Khan Konchak himself stood up for him, for whom Igor was a real blood relative in the female line (nephew).
8) The steppe culture educates absolutely all male children - in wars. Therefore, the children carried the security service at home, while the elders are in a big war. Home life (up to the dismantling and assembly of yurts) - entirely on female hands. Men are engaged only in hunting, war and the manufacture of weapons and some heavy household items.

To understand how the nomads lived and fought, it is enough to study the culture of at least one of the steppe people of Russia. Then there will be no such elementary questions.

[Prometey]

Quote: Marek Rozny

2) There are thousands of historical written sources in European and Asian languages. The fact that you can only read in Russian is your problem.

Nevertheless, not one in Mongolian. And about thousands yes, but this is starting from a later time, when acts of paperwork will be preserved.

Quote: Marek Rozny

Ancient steppes began to mine iron one of the first in Eurasia. And this gave them a significant advantage in wars with neighbors who used bronze weapons.

Well, this is just a hypothesis. There is no consensus on where and who first began to process iron, by the way, even perhaps earlier than bronze. At least there are supporters who question the archaeological periodization and the existence of the Bronze Age as an independent period. The era of metalworking came for the Neolithic and iron, as a more common metal than tin, was initially distributed.

Quote: Marek Rozny

Kazakhs and Mongols can still roam for thousands of kilometers without a compass, sleeping bag and jeep, using horses, a yurt and orienting by stars. The mechanism is worked out to the smallest detail. The migration of Kazakhs with all kind, property and herds up to the 20th century was the same proven process.

Relocation and a military campaign in hostile territory are completely different things.
And for some reason, they also discount such an important factor as non-combat losses, namely from diseases and hardships of the campaign. The death of cattle, even at this time, is not a rare occurrence, but at that time in the era of the absence of antibiotics, this could be a disaster for both cattle and people. All commanders met with diseases and epidemics in the army at all times. Apparently, this disaster miraculously passed the Mongols - I am waiting for stories about the secret knowledge of nomads in the field of pharmacology

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Prometey

Nevertheless, not one in Mongolian.

There, try to find out personally.

Quote: Prometey

Relocation and a military campaign in hostile territory are completely different things.

Oh well.

Quote: Prometey

And for some reason, they also discount such an important factor as non-combat losses, namely from diseases and hardships of the campaign.

argument from the series:
- General Moroz helped the Russians always defeat the armies of Europeans, like we Russians are all covered in the skins of aka bears, our pets and cold do not feel.

Quote: Prometey

The death of cattle, even at this time, is not a rare occurrence, but at that time in the era of the absence of antibiotics, this could be a disaster for both cattle and people.

Dear answer a number of questions:
- What is the Mongolian steppe in winter? What do horses and sheep eat in the Mongolian steppe when snow falls and the temperature drops in minus twenty, while the winds turn into a snowstorm and snowstorm? how did the inhabitants of the steppes who did not have warm rooms for cattle and barns with hay manage to keep their herds?

Quote: Prometey

All commanders met with diseases and epidemics in the army at all times. Apparently, this disaster miraculously passed the Mongols - I am waiting for stories about the secret knowledge of nomads in the field of pharmacology

easily

living in the Far North, I personally saw how the peoples living in these lands in the winter eat exclusively fish and meat, if you put me or them on their diet, then within a few months all of us will lose our teeth, and then we will die - scurvy is called, at the same time, I will not sit down at the same table with the representative of the peoples of the north, because I know how it will end, unlike you and me, they have something in the body and alcohol is not so broken down (which actually leads to criminal prosecution in tsarist Russia for selling alcohol to such frames) - a person is called the crown of creation not because of vanity, but because of the variability of his body's abilities.

[Karlsonn]

as I understand it, there will be no answers

[Prometey]

Quote: Karlsonn

- General Moroz helped the Russians always defeat the armies of Europeans, like we Russians are all covered in the skins of aka bears, our pets and cold do not feel.

Actually, after this conversation it will not work. You are a sophist, and it’s not interesting to talk with such people.

[Sandov]

Karlsonn,
There will be no scurvy if you eat like reindeer herders. Drink blood and eat frozen fish and raw meat.

[Marek Rozny]

1) the Mongols wrote in Uyghur (Turkic) writing.
2) the ancient metallurgy of Altai, Siberia and Kazakhstan was investigated back in Soviet times. There are still abandoned mines. Let me remind you that the metalworking of the nomads was not just developed, but very developed. Saks of Kazakhstan still "present" us regularly with amazing finds such as the "Golden Man". This is the finest jewelry work, and not just a pointed piece of metal.
3) Veterinary business in the steppes was better developed than in the settled neighbors. Even in the 19th century, Kazakhs refused the services of Russian veterinarians, since they themselves calmly coped with most diseases. And in the case of incurable diseases, the Kazakhs simply slaughtered the cattle until the other cattle became infected (and if it was a horse, not a ram, then the Kazakhs often ate horsemeat, because it is difficult to catch something dangerous from horsemeat, especially when the Stepnyatsky a fanatical habit of boiling meat for several hours).
Sedentary neighbors improved in vegetable agriculture, and nomads brought their veterinary work to almost perfection as it was possible until the 19th century. Livestock was the main measure of the wealth of the steppe and nomadic state. Without a horse, it would have been impossible to eat, move or fight, therefore folk veterinary medicine has developed for centuries. Until now, the phrase "Are your cattle healthy?" in the Kazakh language is an analogue of the phrase "Hello".

And in general, medicine in Asia was much more developed than in Russia or in Europe. In addition to their own knowledge, the Turks scooped up information from the Chinese, Arabs, and settled residents of Turkestan. Medical treatises among the Turks were widespread from the 8th-9th centuries. This is later than that of the Chinese, but earlier than in non-antique Catholic Europe.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Marek Rozny

And in general, medicine in Asia was much more developed than in Russia or in Europe. In addition to their own knowledge, the Turks scooped up information from the Chinese, Arabs, and settled residents of Turkestan. Medical treatises among the Turks were widespread from the 8th-9th centuries. This is later than that of the Chinese, but earlier than in non-antique Catholic Europe.

adherents who minus me and you disagree with this .
I personally, the Russian chauvinist-imperialist, believe that in addition to the enormous bloodshed, the Horde brought a huge leap forward and scattered Russians, at war with each other, could take place in such a phenomenon as the Russian Empire, I, as a Russian chauvinist-imperialist, are almost touched by the fact that the civilization of the East itself, while the European nobility didn’t wash, stinked, was completely illiterate, and about mathematics, astronomy, and generally in a number of sciences had no idea to me and my people gave nomads I personally remember why and why there was such a song as:

How sad, foggy all around
Longing, bleak my way
And the past seems like a dream
Tomitis sore chest!

Chorus:
Coachman, do not ride horses!
I have nowhere to hurry,
I have no one else to love
Coachman, do not ride horses!

Like thirst in the dark plains
Cheating and forgetting love -
But memory, my evil lord,
Everything wakes up asleep again!

Chorus:
Coachman, do not ride horses!
I have nowhere to hurry,
I have no one else to love

[Marek Rozny]

Bliiiiin! Which song! I associate her with my father. He often sang it with a guitar. He sang old Russian and Ukrainian songs like a gypsy with iridescence and graceful anguish. He gave me a love for Ukrainian songs. And I, singing them, constantly infected my cousin, who now sings "Nicht yak minishana" in Austria)))
And I also like to sing among other Ukrainian songs "Chornobryvtsy". A very touching song.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Marek Rozny

And I also like to sing among other Ukrainian songs "Chornobryvtsy". A very touching song.

I’m not afraid to say the reasons for the separation of the peoples who made history together — humanity, for me personally, is a mystery and signs of human degeneration as a civilization; what to stop on this way? let's start to hate and kill not only those whose skin, eyes and hair color is not so ---- fig small things? let's kill and hate those who do not live on our street.

[Marek Rozny]

admins deleted my message about veterinary medicine in the steppes. apparently, the phrase that nomads rummaged better than settled peoples in this area violates the rules of the site.

[Ingvald_Bueny]

Respected to the disunity of the Russians and the invasion of the Mongols, the Russians were in a single centralized Old Russian state and even during the period of feudal fragmentation did not reach a complete "civil war" as it was, for example, in the Frankish kingdom. The Russians took place in such a "phenomenon of the Russian Empire" not thanks to the Horde , but in spite of it, since it is known that the Horde khans always acted according to the "divide and rule" plan. They just did not take into account the progressive force of the Russians towards liberation from the yoke and played with the appanage princes, the "horde" did not fully appreciate its opponent, won the battle against him, but lost the war as a whole, this is the phenomenon of "Russian victory", Russia can be bent but not broken, it always straightens up and knocks down the opponent.
As for the civilization of the East, without a doubt it was advanced, and first of all it is the civilization of the Eastern Roman Empire, Persia, Syria, Egypt, India, China, the Arab Caliphate (it mainly borrowed knowledge from Rome and Egypt). But this is not "civilization Horde ", Horde was a consumer and gave nothing in return. Everything that the Horde had, it owes to the conquered people and Russia. If not for the invasion, Russia did not stop in development for a hundred years. You do not thank Hitler for the fact that he pushed the Soviet military machine to development with his invasion, so why thank the horde.

[Sandov]

Prometey,
Yes, you are right in many ways. Recently I watched a documentary about Mongolia and Kazakhstan. In winter, in a nonsense - a banal death. This is not a forest - where you can hide from the weather. All data speaks of a distortion of history by the Latins, and according to the current Geyropeytsami.

[Karlsonn]

Marek Rozny

my friend, I'm afraid you are trying to explain why the plane flies, although it is heavier than air.

[Ingvald_Bueny]

Quote: Marek Rozny

All Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Mongolia are clogged with archaeological finds from the steppe mounds of nomads. In any regional museum you will be shown the remains of the weapons of the Horde nomads.

It depends on what kind of nomads. From the horde survived only what was a weapon of violence: swords, sabers, pikes, bows of the Chinese type (often reconstruction in museums). From the Scythians (from which by the way both Slavs and Polovtsians come), a lot of things have really survived. For example, does the horde have something similar to the "animal Scythian style"? No. And in Russian culture there is.
Nomad nomad strife - you need to understand.

Quote: Marek Rozny

Ancient steppes began to mine iron one of the first in Eurasia. And this gave them a significant advantage in wars with neighbors who used bronze weapons. The ancient steppe mines are higher than the roof in Altai, in the KZ, Mongolia and Siberia - the ancestral home of the Turks.

I consider the ancestral home of the ancient Türks the south of Altai, others to Inner Mongolia. Siberia is not the ancestral home of the ancient Türks.
One of the first iron smelters in Eurasia: Greece, Egypt, China, India, as well as the Venetian and Bulgars. In general, with regard to the Iron Age, refer to the school literature of your school.

Quote: Marek Rozny

The Chingizids controlled the Chinese for a hundred years, then they briefly threw off the yoke, but soon they were subjugated by other nomads, the Manchus, who ruled them until the abdication of Pu Yi in the 20th century.

Manchurian nomads? Okay.

Quote: Marek Rozny

Kazakhs and Mongols can still roam for thousands of kilometers without a compass, sleeping bag and jeep, using horses, a yurt and orienting by stars. The mechanism is worked out to the smallest detail. The migration of Kazakhs with all kind, property and herds up to the 20th century was the same proven process.

By the way, the Vikings and the Russians also did not have a compass and a sleeping bag, a dragcar and a boat and mastered half the world.

Quote: Marek Rozny

The steppe culture brings up absolutely all male children - wars.

And what did this culture give the world, except for wars? Culture is a product of labor.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Prometey

The author posed questions to which traditional historians, until now, did not give a clear answer, and even more so could provide a more or less evidence base for such a phenomenon as the Mongol invasion and the Mongol-Tatar yoke. Everything revolves around several dubious archaeological finds, a couple of historical sources and emotions of historians themselves.

Apparently you are far from history as a science.
If you have not read, are not interested, this is your personal misfortune.

- Do you see a gopher?
- not.
- and he is!

[Prometey]

Karlsonn

Quote: Karlsonn

Apparently you are far from history as a science.
If you have not read, are not interested, this is your personal misfortune.

- Do you see a gopher?
- not.
- and he is!

Actually, you confirmed my assumption - the yoke was because it was. Any doubt or alternative point of view is rejected because it could not be otherwise.

[Tverichanka]

Exactly. And it’s stupid to challenge it. If there are no simple and convincing answers, then the events didn’t happen completely like that. Thank you for the clear and intelligible reasoning.

[ko88]

Well then, who has conquered half the world ?? since the secret legend, Persian, Chinese, written sources, the annals of Marco Polo are called into question, probably these are ancient Russians? brought such a rustle?

[cumastra1]

The author began for health, finished for repose. You cannot bind together what happened 800 years ago and 100 years ago. What does the parallels between Hitler and Stalin have to do with it? One captured half of Europe, then another, and before them were Napoleon, Count Suvorov. Let’s recall Alexander the Great - well, he captured the whole world then known, and part of the unknown. So what? Did you take something with you? the history and struggle of ideas cannot be disturbed. The last paragraph ruined everything like a fly in the ointment. And the honey in the barrel was sweet.

[Guun]

I read the article and the comment - I realized - the trouble is here. Recently, in the English discovered the barracks of Roman legionnaires. Scientists were surprised by the design of the toilets - they were with sewers and flushing, something that wasn’t near the enlightened Europe of the Middle Ages where poop and wash from the pot were poured directly from the window into the street and got the plague, but they thought that everyone except Europe was barbarians. And the Arabs in the 6th century came up with heated floors that are used to this day and SUCH INVENTIONS OF THE ANCIENT HEAP in our everyday life, we simply go unnoticed. And the Greeks went even further, which is only worth their mechanism AUTOMATICALLY determining the location of our planets in the solar system. Where does such knowledge come from? It’s just that people are not changing, a man 500 years ago also believed that he was the most civilized. Genghis Khan conquered the tribes who lived on the territory of Kazakhstan and destroyed the cities that resisted, in Persian chronicles, as well as in the Arab Mongols, they are mentioned and fought with the Abbasids.
They wrote comments where they gave an example of the once strongest Roman Empire and the current Italian, I would not say that they once founded an empire with the legendary military machine. The Mongols didn’t drown the Slavic people in the blood, this is a fact, otherwise the current Russians would not be different from the Kazakhs.

[Prometey]

Quote: Guun

they poured from a pot directly from the window onto the street and got plague

Through shit, dysentery is transmitted, the plague is different)

[does it]

Quote: Guun

The Mongols drowned in the blood of the Slavic people,

fleeing from the tributaries, the inhabitants hid in the woods. devastate in recalcitrant terrain p. 143. s.a. knyazkov "pre-petrine rus"

[Karlsonn]

Quote: kvirit

fleeing from the tributaries, the inhabitants hid in the woods. devastate in recalcitrant terrain p. 143. s.a. knyazkov "pre-petrine rus"

here, as I think, it is already impossible to prove anything, the names Ryazan, Kiev, Kozelsk and many, many others no longer tell anyone anything. You +

[Marek Rozny]

I’ll add about floors and sewers) In South Korea I saw ancient houses and temples, which were also heated by an air drainage system in the floor, through which hot air came from burning logs. as I understand it, the Chinese had similar heating systems in some regions. it is surprising that in other regions of the world they did not think of such an effective system in the era of antiquity.
and regarding the sewage system - when Paris was still Lutetia, and London - the parking lot of Roman soldiers, in every Turkestan city there was already a sewage system for each house. pipelines were made of pots without a bottom, which were inserted into each other, forming kilometers of sewage. in the museums of Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan, one can see individual elements of such systems.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Marek Rozny

The Chinese had similar heating systems in some regions. it is surprising that in other regions of the world they did not think of such an effective system in the era of antiquity.

just don’t say that the Chinese invented gunpowder and paper, otherwise the descendants of the Hyperboreans will come running and claim copyright for the iPhones that their ancestors invented

Quote: Karlsonn

to Midgard from the Swan Constellation (Makosh or Ursa Major)

but wicked w ...... we stole and attributed everything to ourselves

[Ingvald_Bueny]

Uv.Marek The Roman Empire is known for its inventions such as aqueducts, water pipes, baths and sewers since ancient times, so London (by the way was not just a parking lot, but an ancient town with beautiful Roman fortification) was also with developed infrastructure. The Romans were a people who appreciated comfort, and who created the benefits of civilization that we still use, so wherever they go, they equip them all.
As for "every Turkestan city", there were no such cities during the ancient Roman Empire.
P / S Individual elements such as broken ceramics and rusty pipes of unknown origin are not evidence of infrastructure. Elements of communications similar to the Roman ones in Central Asia were not preserved, it is possible that they were nonexistent.

[Ingvald_Bueny]

In some ways you are right, modern Italians certainly did not found the Great Roman Empire, it was founded by one of their ancestors: the Trojans first mixed with the Etruscan, and with the Italian "shoe" tribes. But the Roman military machine was the strongest in ancient times, and neither the civilized Greeks, nor the mighty Sarmatians and Venets (who served in the Roman legions), nor the wise Persians could oppose it. Therefore, the Roman military machine is legendary to this day and can only be compared in legend with the Soviet army.
As for the Mongols, they certainly did not drown the Slavs in the blood in the middle of the XIII, but that military alliance which was "Mongols" destroyed the Slavs and drove them into slavery, and it is difficult to argue with that. Since if we compare the increase in biomass before the "Mongols" and after, we will see that it stopped for a century during the invasion and began to recover by the middle of the next century after the invasion.

[Setrac]

The Italians have to do with the ancient Roman Empire in much the same way as the modern Egyptians - to the construction of the pyramids.

[BruderV]

Fair. Back in the days of the Roman Empire, slaves were brought from all over the Mediterranean; naturally, in the Middle Ages, they all mixed up with the former Romans. In Corsica, for example, in the early Middle Ages, blacks also lived in the Marseille region. Sicily and the south of Italy were under Arab rule for some time, so the southern Italians are generally more likely the Middle East and the mentality is the same. Yes, and during the great migration of peoples to Italy, who just did not trample. So from those ancient Romans there really is one memory.

[rkka]

BRE D wild! enough to carry nonsense !!!
We already have 70% of the zombie cattle population.
the authority of this site is finally undermined, I'm waiting for an article about UFOs, and liquid masson reptilians!

[does it]

Quote: rkka

the authority of this site is finally undermined, I'm waiting for an article about UFOs, and liquid masson reptilians!

it’s better on the topic of ancient civilizations, there is something to think about.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: kvirit

it’s better on the topic of ancient civilizations, there is something to think about.

Earth is a spaceship, it was brought to the solar system by ancient ukry fleeing the machinations of proto-Jews, the ancient ukry fled a whole planet from a parallel universe, but the Zionist conspiracy overtook them here too.

[does it]

Quote: Karlsonn

Earth is a spaceship, it was brought to the solar system by ancient ukry fleeing the machinations of proto-Jews, the ancient ukry fled a whole planet from a parallel universe, but the Zionist conspiracy overtook them here too.

powerful hypothesis case, not these. "stele in bonampak"

[Marek Rozny]

To reduce the intensity of the controversy, I will post here an old but rather amusing humorous text "Letter from Khan Mamai to Dmitry Donskoy" (Mamai was not a khan, but nevertheless, the text is quite interesting):



Hello dear Dmitry!

A rumor reached me that you, having fallen under the influence of the nationalist Sergius of Radonezh, succumbed to the persuasions of the separate boyars-separatists, headed for the separation of the Moscow principality from the Golden Horde. That your people everywhere are shouting about some kind of "Mongol-Tatar yoke". That the Tatar soldiers are already called occupiers in the Moscow region. That my baskak was beaten in Suzdal. What do you demand that the Moscow soldiers who have sworn allegiance to the Horde now give a new oath to the Moscow principality ...

Think it over, brother Dmitry! How can you cut Muscovy from the Horde alive? You know that I am not a great-power Genghisist, but almost half the Moskvite. My nanny was a barbarian of Barbara. And who said that there is a separate Moscow people?

We are a single Golden Horde nation. Our people were divided (not for long) only in the XNUMXth century, when the Kiev predator Oleg conquered part of the Khazars, our common ancestors. Look at yourself, how many among you Muscovites are slanted, cheeky and snub-nosed? No wonder there is a saying: scratch a Muscovite thoroughly and you will find a Tatar. Your language is almost ours. A hero, a bathrobe, a watermelon, a sofa, a taiga, a pencil, money, a horse, a stocking, a coachman, an attic, a halva, a suitcase and hundreds of others - these are your and our words.

It was only later, during the Kiev undercutting, the non-folk Moscow language was grown, stuffed with Slavic words and the temptation to wean Muscovites from the Tatar speech and the temptation of Moscow nationalism. It comes to the ridiculous, popular ignorance that "Moscow, Vladimir, Novgorod are all Russian cities." As if we don't know here that only a strip of land from Tmutarakan 'to the Carpathians is called Rus? As if the Moscow or Novgorod chroniclers, noting the trips of their princes to Kiev, did not write "... I went to Russia on such and such a date ..."

For thousands of years we have had one faith. Our ancestors worshiped the same Sun and the same idols. Kiev imposed Christianity on us. But there were many Nestorian Christians among Baty's soldiers. In 1260, the Christian Mongols went to Palestine to free the Holy Sepulcher from the Muslims. Then, however, in 1312, Khan Uzbek himself converted to Islam. But we have never infringed upon your old faith. About Khan Dzhanibek your chronicler says that "this tsar Chyanibek Azbyakovich is very good to Christianity." Khan Berke allowed the Muscovites who lived in Sarai to openly conduct their divine services, so that Metropolitan Kirill established a special Sarsk monastery for them. And in general, sharing on religious grounds is barbaric. In addition, Muscovites and Tatars very often mutually changed their faith. From ancient times, the Horde people settled in Moscow cities and accepted Orthodoxy. The Tatar official Bucha, collecting tribute from residents in Ustyug, fell in love with a local girl Maria and, in order to marry her, was baptized under the name of John. Subsequently, he built the Church of St. John the Baptist, which, you know, still stands today. And in Yaroslavl, the monk Zosima accepted our Mohammedan faith.

Remember, Batu made Alexander Nevsky his adopted son and entrusted him with the leadership of the Tatar and Russian troops when some cities flatly refused to help defend the sacred borders of the Horde from the Teutons.

[Marek Rozny]

Today, separating Muscovy means cutting through millions of families and people: what a mixture of population; entire regions with a Tatar preponderance, how many people are at a loss to choose their nationality from two ... Aksakov, Asadovs, Baksakovs, Basmanovs, Bekhterevs, Bulgakovs, Korsanovs, Beklemishevs, Chaadaevs, Kolychevs, Karamyshevs, Buturlins, Kurakins, Sabyurovs, Ogyrovs, Ubyrovys, Sabyurovs, Ogyrovs, Arakcheevs, Mansurovs, Saltykovs, Bakhmetyevs, Musins, Muratovs, Isaevs, Yusupovs, Bulatovs, Izmailovs - who are they? Muscovites? Tatars?

And where is the border between Muscovy and Tatarstan? For hundreds of years we have lived together without knowing any boundaries!

Who will turn the tongue to say that Tula, named after Queen Taydula, wife Dzhanibekova, is a Moscow city? And the lower one? If Tokhtamysh foolishly or drunk gave Vasily I a label on the Principality of Nizhny Novgorod, it does not follow from this that the Tatar people will abandon the lands that are the lands of Tatar glory. No one asked hundreds of thousands of Tatars living in Nizhny whether they would like to be presented as something.

Our muftis examined this shameful act and came to the conclusion that the Tokhtamysh label does not have legal force, as upon the transfer of the Principality of Nizhny Novgorod to Muscovy, a general Kurultai of the Tatar-speaking population was not held. So far we decided to declare Nizhny the eleventh ulus, and there we will see.

And the lands along the upper Volga and Kama? We unfold the fourteenth scroll of the "Golden Horde story". We read: "Novotataria. This is the name of the space conquered by His Serene Highness Khan Batu and including the Vologda, Kostroma, Chukhlomskaya and Vyatsky uluses." Maybe you, Dmitry, would like to include Crimea in Muscovy too? Or - hehe! - Siberia?

The whole of Europe is uniting (I heard that Lithuania is going to unite with Poland), and you decided to separate.

Yes, it’s bitter to recall Batu’s tough actions in relation to Kozelsk and some other cities. And then, after all, the Kozelians were the first to attack our ambassadors, who came with peace proposals.

There were much more positive examples. Together we stopped the onslaught of German hordes to the East. Muscovites and Tatars fought shoulder to shoulder with aggressive Lithuania and its vassals - Russian princes. The reunion of Muscovy with the Golden Horde - and this is how everyone accepted it - opened the way to your lands for the Khiva and Bukhara merchants, which had a beneficial effect on the economy. The wise elder Tatar brother helped the younger Tatar brother to learn solid Horde discipline, military valor and ruthlessness to enemies.

[Marek Rozny]

Some Muscovites shout as if the Tatars were robbing them. This is a shameless lie. Show me where we looted? Look how the Muscovite lives. He lives in a hut, eats rich cabbage soup and a hare pie. A simple Tatar lives in a wagon, suffers dust and cold, feeds on millet and raw horse meat. So who is robbing whom?

With particular anxiety, I follow the pulling of troops. Let us recall our military friendship, held together by blood, how the Tatars conquered Lithuania together with Gleb Smolensky and Roman Bryansky, how your grandfather Ivan Kalita and the Khan Uzbek beat the Tver traitors! Now from the warriors who have sworn an oath to the Golden Horde, they demand an oath to Moscow! Where is your military honor, Dmitry? Who honored you with grand dignity? Murut! Who did you swear allegiance to on your knees? The horde! But a real man swears only once in his life! Traitor!

And now you also declared the spears made in the Kopeysk yard as your property. But after all, the Kopeyny Yard, Dmitry, was built at the expense of the entire Horde.

Crush an army - create thousands of difficulties. For example, Kasimov artisans supply horseshoe nails to the whole Horde. This is the same single agricultural complex! And where do you get experienced temniks? And how will the Muscovites command horses if they obey only Tatar commands?

You want to have your army immediately and immediately. Moreover, you do not provide chambers to my centurions who did not want to swear an oath to you, and they are forced to suffer, living with their families in torn yurts.

Okay, I’m allowing you some power (say 100 light archers) to have at your disposal - to maintain internal order. But pull away the whole army?

I ask you, Dmitry: come to your senses! Do not push our fraternal peoples against your foreheads.
History will not forgive you.

Your brother MOMAI

[sashka]

Found all or only TWO documents of the Mongolian .. Written in Russian .. But there is still no written language. And if you watch a movie. So horror and only .. Nobody kills ourselves since we ourselves .. For someone a tragedy, for us the norm

[Xay]

Normal article. Yes, not complete, many contradictory facts. Fortunately, in many ways it will make people understand that it’s not so simple that they inspired us all this time.
And who is still interested in reading)))))))))

[EXA-2]

So I do not understand. It was the Russian 300 years under the yoke of the Russians?

[BruderV]

Well, of course, it’s understandable that the Polovtsy — the Russians asked for half the sheep to travel through their steppe, and therefore the Polovtsians. Tatars most likely come from the Czech Tatra mountains, which means also the Slavs. It is curious that often the same people laugh when they read about ukrov, who built the pyramids. And when about Russians they start the same nonsense vtyuhivatsya, they sprinkle directly with saliva.

[kvodrato]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1JL6XGU0PY

[kvodrato]

[media = http: //www.youtube.com/watch? v = E1JL6XGU0PY Tatar-Mongol yoke - a lie !!!!

[ko88]

BULLSHIT!!! who is not there now, all sorts of clowns and charlottes in bulk! in each region, in each city and each with his own hypothesis, I do not remember the name of the "scientist" - he also put forward a hypothesis that the great Chinese wall was built by Russian architects)) and I say, I quote "well, they say there was no Mongol empire, but the golden horde and the Mongolian invasion, it was our Russians who fought among themselves. Where are these grimy shepherds to military affairs, and their secret legend is an invention! How could they record and document all this, because they only got written language in 1920, the Russian Communists brought them there Cyrillic ", so this deer did not make sure by reading about them (Mongolia) they had a written language even before Genghis Khan !! and the Uyghur writing was taken as the basis, that is, the Mongols' writing is vertical, he questioned a lot of things. I'm ashamed of such people, they need to be treated and we still let them write "articles" and read their fictional fictions

[Setrac]

What we know for certain about the Great Wall of China is that it was "restored" by the great helmsman Mao, everything else is doubtful and difficult to prove.

[kvodrato]

MONGOLO-TATAR IGO-FALSE!

[ko88]

Well then maybe the Russian empire and the Soviet Union are also a lie ?? All around, facts please !! how the USSR collapsed all these false scientists were tired of listening, it is necessary to introduce criminal prosecution for false science, tired of their own vomit from Sebyatinsky!

[Siberian]

At its core, based on the work of Morozov, Nosovsky and Fomenko are still right.

[i.xxx-1971]

This was when the POLICIANS attacked the Soviet Union ... Read Lomonosov, Nosovsky and Fomenko, not Shletser and Muller.

[Seraphimamur]

I was always surprised by the fact that during the "Mongol-Tatar yoke" Rus
paid 10% tax. If the state is now charging 13. What kind of yoke is it and what was it then?

[andrew42]

Marek rozny,
Yes, there is no community of "Finno-Ugrians". And it did not exist. As there are no "rhino-hippos". Enough of screwing this crazy term all over the place. I still can't get to the bottom of it, what kind of, excuse me, bastard, screwed this definition first? For example, the history of the Perm region. When the Russians began to intensively populate Kuzhmangort (near the Kama region), from that moment it was clearly indicated that the Komi and Votyaks (of the "Finns" type) were separate, and the Mansi-Voguls (of the "Ugry" type) separately. And there is nothing ethnically close between them. Is that the temporary subordination of the first to the second, and moreover all of them were NOT Christians. As a result, the Komi and the Russians were in perfect harmony, but the Mansi had to be driven behind the Stone.

[andrew42]

Moreover, the very term "Ugrians" is originally geographic. Ugorschina, aka Pannonia, aka present-day Hungary, is a geographic region of central Europe, where the very Hungarians, who are also Magyars, settled. Perhaps they can be called "Khungars", but there is no name for "Ugrians" in Zap. Siberia and the Southern Urals did not exist a priori.

[Aleksandr1981]

Marek rozny,
Well, here is another Kazakh linguist got out. And of course, an expert on the history of Russia in combination. Tsaritsyn from the word tsar. And no other way!