Military Review

On the eve of the storm. Batu invasion of the Romanovich state

200

Map illustrating the reign of Daniil Galitsky (Belarusian language)


The restoration of the Galicia-Volyn principality did not please anyone. The first, of course, were the Hungarians, and King Andras II sent, under the leadership of his son Bela, a large army to Galich. A large army is a big defeat. In 1229, all possible factors were against the Hungarians. Daniel met them on the outskirts of Galich and in the course of numerous skirmishes inflicted heavy losses on them, without entering into a great battle. The Magyars deployed their army, but the Rus continued to pursue, and then there were rains, floods and an epidemic among the soldiers. Having suffered heavy losses, the Hungarian army was still able to return home, but had to forget about campaigns against Galich for some time.

But there was no time to rest: to replace the external enemy, the internal enemy raised his head. All the same, Alexander Belzsky, who continued to wish himself in possession of Volyn, teamed up with the Galician nobility, which continued to stir up the water. A conspiracy was drawn up, according to which the Romanovichs were to be burned in the palace during the feast (the princely palaces in Galich were built of wood). The plot opened up by accident: for the sake of laughter, playfully, Vasilko threatened the participants in the plot with a sword, they considered that they had been opened, and immediately laid out everything they knew. Alexander lost his principality, but in 1231, Daniel still had to leave the city, when at the approach of the Hungarian troops the boyars rebelled again. To reign in Galich, Andras of Hungary again sat down.

Daniel could only do the same thing as always: fighting in small wars, enter into alliances in order to use them in the future. After the loss of Galich, he took part in another strife for the capital of Russia, supporting Vladimir Rurikovich, who at that time defended Kiev from Mikhail Chernigovsky. Having received a gratitude to the city in Poros, Daniel distributed them to the sons of Mstislav Udatny, thus luring them out of the enemy camp. In the same year, it was necessary to repel several raids of Hungarians and Bokhovites in Volyn. The latter represented a very high-handed group of tribes, which only indirectly obeyed Kiev and had their own boyars, and, possibly, their own princes (although the Bolokhov princes are a separate issue altogether). During the formation of the Romanovich state, they perceived the new western neighbor as a threat and constantly intervened in their affairs.

In 1233, Daniel again returned Galich, during the siege of which the royal Andras died. The unity of the Romanovic state was restored. Alexander Vsevolodovich, the former prince of Belz, was put in prison, as there was information about his next conspiracy with the Galician nobility, which was headed by a certain Sudislav, who acted in the best traditions of the Kormilichichi. In 1234, he had to again help Vladimir Kiev, who was besieged by Mikhail Chernigov. The blow to the princedom of the latter was a success, but soon the defeat of the Polovtsian army and the Russian prince Izyaslav Vladimirovich, the son of Vladimir Igorevich, one of the three Igorevichs who ruled Galich a quarter century ago, soon followed. Following this, the Galician boyars entered into a conspiracy with Mikhail Chernigovsky, who misinformed Daniel about enemy actions. As a result, in 1235, Galich was open to attack, was lost by the Romanovichs, and with the approval of the local nobility, the very same Mikhail Chernigovsky sat there to rule.

The constant strife and invasions of foreigners, which did not stop in Southwest Russia after the death of Roman Mstislavich, began to bore everyone. (Even the author of this article was tired of describing all these relatively minor conflicts with a constant change in the layout of the unions with an almost unchanged composition of the main actors.) Daniel Romanovich, who also turned out to be against numerous opponents with a small squad, was also tired. After the loss of Galich, he decided on a very radical and controversial step - to recognize himself as a vassal of the recently crowned Hungarian monarch Bela IV, with whom he had a good relationship (Daniil and Bela were brought up at the Hungarian court for some time and to some extent were friends). Alas, the Romanovichs did not receive help in exchange for such a significant concession, and therefore they had to rake all this mess on their own, forgetting the oath of vassal fidelity along the way.

Offensive order


The Bolokhovites and Galicians did not give up and began to make constant raids on Volyn, thereby trying to completely deprive the Romanovichs of any inheritance. In 1236 they made a large raid, but suffered a devastating defeat, many soldiers were captured by the Volyn prince. Mikhail Vsevolodovich (Chernigovsky) and Izyaslav Vladimirovich (who became the prince of Kiev) demanded their extradition, and when they were refused, they began to gather a large army to march on Vladimir. They were joined by the Polovtsy and the Polish Prince Konrad of Mazowiecki, who had views of the northern territories of Volyn. As before, diplomacy was no less effective than swords: instead of hitting the lands of the Romanovichs, the Polovtsy attacked the Principality of Galicia, causing great damage. Conrad was defeated by the younger brother of Daniel, Vasilko, it is possible that with direct or indirect support of the Lithuanians. The remaining army of Mikhail and his son Rostislav (who will play an important role in the future) was besieged in Galich in 1237, and only by a miracle the city resisted. In the joys of success, Michael in 1238 rushed to the campaign in Lithuania, leaving instead to reign his son. Together with him, many Galician boyars from among the radicals also went on a campaign. As a result of this, Daniel got the opportunity to easily occupy the city, and the community fully supported him by opening the gate. The Galician-Volyn principality was restored, this time - finally.

All this time, the Romanovichs had to fight, fight and fight again. Moreover, the described wars were far from the only ones that Daniel and Cornflower had to wage. So, the Lithuanians did not always behave peacefully, who periodically nevertheless raided the Brest land, which was the extreme northern land of the Volyn possessions. A difficult relationship developed at that time with Konrad Mazowiecki, who was at first an ally and then an enemy. In 1238, in addition to the occupation of Galich, he also had to deal with the crusaders who invaded the northern possessions of the Volyn principality. I had to tackle weapon and make the Christian brothers go back, returning the loot. Along the way, taking the opportunity, Daniel returned to his possession the city of Dorogichin. It was a primordially Russian city (like all the land around it), which served as the northwestern outskirts of the Volyn principality. Using the troubles in Russia, the Mazovian princes captured the city somewhere else in the XII century, and in 1237 Konrad presented it to the Dobzhinsky knightly order, from which Daniel took them.

Meanwhile, the Mongols were already coming from the east, having managed to walk fire and sword through North-West Russia and approaching the Romanovichi state ....

Mongolo-Tatars


On the eve of the storm. Batu invasion of the Romanovich state

The Mongols (also the Mongol-Tatars, also the Tatar-Mongols, I will use all three turns as needed), or rather, the Ulus Juchi, the future Golden Horde, at that time was a well-functioning machine for distributing cuffs to all settled and nomadic peoples, who refused to obey or pay tribute to them. Thanks to the experience adopted by the Chinese along with the Chinese cadres, these steppes were able to besiege the fortresses, take them by storm, and due to the absorption of all the other steppes into themselves, they had a large number. They were commanded by Batu Khan, a skilled and tough military leader who, after Genghis Khan and up to Timur, was probably the only Mongol-Tatar commander who could use the bunch of nomads and dependent sedentaries so effectively, bending everyone on his way to the Adriatic Sea.

However, you should also understand another thing. Batu attacked Russia in 1237 and fought with it for the following years. Yes, he won victories, yes, the supply of cannon fodder to the hashar (auxiliary army) was well established among the Mongols, which was used in siege work and, in which case, was the first wave to storm ... But in any situation with such active military operations and with the resistance that the Russian princes and cities offered, the horde would inevitably suffer losses and decrease in numbers. In addition, far from the entire Mongol army went west, and indeed the ranks of aggressive nomads during the past wars faded. Modern historians, who adhere to a moderate estimate of the number of Batu troops in 1237, call the number from 50 to 60 thousand people. Given the losses, as well as the departure of two tumens to Mongolia before 1241, the size of the horde at the beginning of the invasion of the Romanovich state can be estimated at about 25-30 thousand people, or maybe even less.

With about such an army, Batu came to the Principality of Galicia-Volyn, after which he still had to fight with the Europeans, who, with the full exertion of forces, could put up troops of comparable strength, or even more. Because of this, the Mongols could no longer organize such a massive offensive, fraught with heavy losses; they could not get involved in long sieges, as this led to a loss of time and the risk of additional losses. Thus, the blow that was inflicted on the Galicia-Volyn state turned out to be weaker than that which hit the North-Eastern Russia in 1237-38, and even more so than the one suffered by Central Asia and the state of Khorezmshahs under Genghis Khan.

Galicia-Volyn principality


Daniil Galitsky, even after the defeat at Kalka, began to look back at what was happening in the steppe, and took into account the possibility of a sudden visit by a strong and numerous enemy. However, the way Batu dealt with the rest of Russia at the beginning of his great campaign to the west had a stunning effect on the Romanovichs. The battle in the field began to look like a deliberate suicide. Instead of tough, violent resistance, a completely different strategy was chosen to minimize damage, which from the very beginning was questionable, at least from a moral point of view. The troops were diverted away from the Mongol strike, and garrisons in the cities, if they remained, were very small. The civilian population also ran up to the horde, although this concerned primarily the villagers: the townspeople were in no hurry to leave the attack. At the same time, those who remained in place should not have shown resistance to the Mongols, since in this case they would be guaranteed death, and in the absence of resistance there would be at least some chance of surviving.

During the invasion, Daniel himself was absent from the principality, circling the nearest states and persistently trying to put together a strong anti-Mongol alliance capable of withstanding the steppes. Only once during the invasion will he try to return home from Hungary, but will meet a large mass of refugees and decide not to try to fight the steppes, having only a few hundred of his closest combatants at hand. There is also information that Daniel concluded a personal ceasefire with the Mongols, protecting himself personally and in fact giving his own principality for plunder, but this theory remains only a theory due to insufficient substantiation.

Having abandoned active actions, the Galician-Volyn principality retained a couple of trump cards in its liability. The first of them turned out to be rapid progress in fortification - if the rest of Russia had wooden fortifications that did not represent a great barrier to the Mongols, then in the South-West mixed stone-wooden and exclusively stone fortifications were already being introduced in full force, multiplied by competent application to the terrain, several lines of defense and the removal of forward support units, which prevented the effective use of siege artillery. This greatly complicated the storming of large cities for the horde, and forced to conduct the correct siege or even completely bypass settlements. The second trump card turned out to be the massive use of self-arrows (crossbows) in the defense of cities, which was noted even when defending small fortresses. They did not require serious preparation of the shooter and fired arrows with great force, piercing the Mongolian armor when firing from the walls, which the bows could not boast of. All this could not help adding pepper to the horde in future events.

Invasion



From the foregoing, it becomes clear that a trip to South-Western Russia for the Mongols has become a more difficult task than the rest of it. There was neither time nor opportunity to thoroughly destroy, rob, besiege and kill. Probably because of the troubles that hit the local population, relatively little is known, from which historians have concluded that the scale of ruin and loss of life on the territory of the principality was, although very serious, but not catastrophic.

The first to be hit was Kiev, which was thrown by his prince, Mikhail Chernigovsky, and where he sent a small detachment Daniil Romanovich. The defense was commanded by the tysyatsky Dmitry (Dmitry). The siege of the city took place in the winter of 1240-1241 and ended in the defeat of Kiev, which was a logical result: having a sufficiently large area, the Russian capital at that time had dilapidated walls due to strife and an insufficiently large garrison, even along with Dmitry’s reinforcements. After that, having made a short respite, the Mongols fell upon the Principality of Galicia-Volyn. The Bolokhovites helped them in this, who went over to the side of the steppes and showed the ways in which it was most convenient to strike in the heart of the Romanovich’s hated state. True, at the same time, the Mongols also demanded tribute from the grain from their newfound allies.

There is no concrete description of what happened in the future, and I do not presume to try to describe in detail the entire invasion, since I will have to invent too much, starting from too little information. However, some specific information is still available. The fate of the three cities has earned special mention in the annals, because therefore they will be primarily focused on.

One of the first to be hit was the city of Galich. Boyars loyal to the Romanovichs, as well as a significant part of those who could hold weapons in their hands, were absent in the city at that time, which predetermined the outcome in advance. Most likely, the remaining townspeople did not resist the Mongols and simply surrendered. Archeology does not confirm any large-scale destruction, except for a series of fires that only partially affected the city fortifications. There are no traces of mass graves. From this we can conclude that the townspeople were simply taken to hashar and actively used in the future. The deserted Galich never again regained his former strength: since 1241 he has rapidly lost his socio-political and economic role, losing first to Holm, the capital of Daniil Romanovich, and then to Lvov, the capital of Lev Danilovich.

A somewhat different picture is observed in Vladimir-Volynsky. It seems that the opinions of the townspeople were divided here, some decided to surrender to the Mongols and repeated the fate of the citizens of Galich, and some decided to fight and died. Because of this, Vladimir survived the ruin, on his territory there are traces of destruction and burial, but they do not correspond in scale to those that would be expected with an active defense of a city of this size: by 1241, its population reached 20 thousand people. In the future, the city will recover quite quickly, remaining the capital of Volyn.

The northernmost of the devastated cities was Berestye (Brest). Apparently, the townspeople initially resisted the Mongols, but then decided to surrender and left the city at their request to recount and facilitate the looting of the city. However, it was not in the habits of the steppes to forgive any resistance, and in similar situations, even making promises of security for surrender, they acted the same. When Roman and Vasilko arrived at the city, it was completely empty and plundered, but without signs of obvious destruction. The corpses of its inhabitants lay in a spacious clearing near the city, whom the Mongols killed as punishment for the fact that the Berestians dared to offer at least some resistance. It is possible that the strongest men were nevertheless taken to hashar and used in the future.

There were cities that resisted the Mongols to the last. Among these, you can specify Kolodyazhin, Izyaslavl, Kamenets. All of them were burned and lost their population. In the ashes of some of them, archaeologists found the remains of self-arrows and tension rings attached to the shooter's belt. All this creates the impression that the Mongols nevertheless with sufficient ease walked fire and sword through the Galicia-Volyn principality.

However, there were completely opposite examples. Stone-wooden or stone fortification, and moreover, correctly located on the ground, turned out to be a tough nut for the steppes. In the case when a fairly large garrison was located on the walls under the command of skilled military leaders, Batu was forced to simply bypass these fortifications, which he did not, for example, with Kozelsky. The Mongols failed to take the relatively new fortresses in Kremenets and Danilov, despite several attempts. At the sight of the Hill, which at that time was probably the most fortified city in Russia and even by Europeans was rated as very well protected, Batu was forced to show off at his walls for some time and go further to Poland, satisfied with the looting unprotected villages in the vicinity of the new capital of the state Romanovich. The captured governor Dmitry, whom the khan continued to carry with him, seeing this, advised him to go further to Europe, since "this land is strong." Considering that the steppe inhabitants did not meet the Galician-Volyn army in the field, and the number of troops was far from endless, the council seemed very efficient to the khan. Without delaying the sieges of well-fortified cities, Batu went with his army further to Poland.

Despite the fact that Batu Khan passed the Principality of Galicia-Volyn principality quickly and devastated it to a much lesser extent than other Russian lands, the losses were still great. Many cities lost the entire population killed in battle, destroyed as a punishment measure or taken to hashar (very few, as a rule, returned from the latter). Significant economic damage was inflicted on the country, especially the handicraft business, which was located in the cities most affected by the steppes. To the guise of the Mongol conquest, the crusaders recaptured Dorogochin from the Rus, and the Bokhovites, together with Prince Rostislav Mikhailovich, tried to seize the principality of Galicia, albeit not entirely successfully.

However, there were positive points. Batu left quickly enough, already in April, defeating the Poles at Legnica. The steppe residents, apparently, walked in a narrow lane, from city to city, and did not affect a significant part of the territory of the state. For example, Bakota remained on the sidelines, which was one of the salt-making centers on the Dniester. Some cities survived the plunder and destruction of the population, thanks to which it was possible to preserve at least some share of the former handicraft production - and in future years in the Galicia-Volyn state it will not only quickly recover, but will also exceed the pre-Mongol period in scale. Finally, by abandoning the field battle and actually surrendering the country's territories for plunder, Daniel Romanovich was able to save his main political trump card at all times - the army. If the prince lost it, then the Galicia-Volyn principality, most likely, would soon end. By preserving it, in April 1241 he was able to proceed to regain control of his state.

As for the Mongols, they, apparently, suffered quite serious losses during a short campaign in the territory of South-West Russia. Their number during the battles in Poland and Hungary is measured from 20 to 30 thousand people, and after the end of the campaign there were already only 12 to 25 thousand. The Mongols had to fight the Europeans in the minority, using the advantages of the cavalry army. Serious sieges of large fortresses were practically not carried out, the military power of the horde quickly degraded to the level of extraordinary robbers and village burners. Ulus Jochi no longer had forces for such large-scale actions, and when they appeared, strife among the Mongols began, and therefore Europe no longer knew such large-scale invasions of the steppes as in 1241-1242. The lack of manpower and means, as well as the serious resistance of the local peoples and the large number of stone fortresses on the road, reduced Batu’s great aggressive campaign to a deep raid into Europe, the use of which boiled down to a great fear of the entire Christian world. As a result, only the nearest territories of Russia and the Balkans fell into dependence on Ulus Jochi.

To be continued ...
Author:
Articles from this series:
The struggle for Galich in the years 1205-1229
Prince Roman Mstislavich, Byzantine Princess and Foreign Policy
Creation of the Galicia-Volyn principality
Leapfrog of princes in Volyn. Changes in society in the XII century
Yaroslav Osmomysl and the extinction of the first Galician dynasty
How Rostislavich kept their principality
Volyn land in the X-XI centuries
Southwest Russia: geography, ancient history, sources of information
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  1. bubalik
    bubalik 16 June 2020 18: 08
    10
    ,,, when already, they will invent a time machine recourse very interesting what was actually sad . bully

    +
    1. Shurik70
      Shurik70 16 June 2020 18: 49
      13
      Even if someone invents, they will immediately secret, and the inventor will be destroyed.
      This is a shock to the basics. They find out that there was no ordinary Rain, or that when landing in Normandy in 1944, a German platoon defended the coast, or that there were no Poles in Katyn. ... And the church? !! It turns out that there were no biblical miracles - and what to do?
      There will never be a time machine (even if it is), while a lie helps to rise in a political career
      1. Bashkirkhan
        Bashkirkhan 16 June 2020 19: 30
        -15 qualifying.
        By the way, there is no difference between the participants of the Batu campaigns and the landing in Normandy. Eyewitnesses of these events have long died. You can even hold a parade in honor of the victories of Batu. At least for the fact that he burned Kiev.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 16 June 2020 19: 50
          12
          At least for the fact that he burned Kiev.

          I think this is not worth writing even as a joke. More precisely, as a joke all the more impossible
          People are completely rooted on the basis of Russian-Ukrainian discourse and the historical section remains an island of relative sanity. I would like it to remain so
          1. Bashkirkhan
            Bashkirkhan 16 June 2020 20: 12
            -3
            Yes, somehow boring without humor. In general, at the time the evil Horde approached them, the Kiev fortifications were not in the best condition: the city experienced a lot of internal quarrels and princely wars, and its powerful fortifications did not have time to put in order by the beginning of the siege. And therefore, Batu did everything in the best possible way, the Kuevlians did not expect an attack from the East, for they were busy fighting with Chernigov rivals and were more afraid of them, and the comrades were not ready for Batu's blitz-krieg from the word "absolutely". As a result, Batu took the city on the 3rd day of the siege.
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 16 June 2020 20: 20
              +8
              As a result, Batu took the city on the 3rd day of the siege.

              Rashid ad-din - 9 days
              Pskov Chronicle - 10 weeks and four days
              Lavrentievskaya - 14 weeks
            2. itis
              itis 16 June 2020 21: 43
              0
              khan - "As a result, Batu took the city on the 3rd day of the siege." Kiev at that time was "white stone", the highest walls in Europe. The Mongols did not see them in China either, but with the help of battering tools (naturally Chinese under Chinese engineers) they smashed the wall near the "Golden Gate" (eastern) and arranged a bathhert for everyone and everything. In Kiev, three "burnt" layers. in Chernigov two. it means burned to the ground. there is no talk of a surprise attack from the East. for two hundred years they had fought with the East, made peace, married, and multiplied. but modern humor is welcome
              1. Bashkirkhan
                Bashkirkhan 16 June 2020 21: 53
                +1
                Judging by the number of sleepers for commentary, near-political humor is not welcome. And yes, I agree, Batu had order with the materiel.
              2. Rakovor
                Rakovor 17 July 2020 17: 15
                0
                What "white stone", are you talking about? Stone could only be "detinets" (and that is not a fact) - the rest is wood.
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 16 June 2020 20: 46
            +4
            My respect, Denis!
            Alas, it will not remain. Haraluzhestvo took possession of this resource.
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 16 June 2020 20: 51
              +2
              I usually ignore such remarks.
              For some reason, today did not work).
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 16 June 2020 21: 00
                +2
                Probably "hard day knight" (sorry for my Swahili). For me, for the third day in a row.
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 16 June 2020 21: 06
                  +4
                  Rather, due to the fact that before that I went over my eyes according to the article of one author, who was hit by a bulb in the opinions section laughing
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 16 June 2020 21: 19
                    +3
                    Why do you run "it" with your eyes?
                    1. Engineer
                      Engineer 16 June 2020 21: 28
                      +3
                      I know it's my fault)
        2. BAI
          BAI 17 June 2020 11: 23
          +2
          No landing in Normandy. Eyewitnesses of these events have long died.

          In Normandy are alive.
    2. Bar1
      Bar1 17 June 2020 01: 27
      -10 qualifying.
      Tataromongols in world history is the strangest episode in official history. How much I would not ask a simple question, how did the primitive communal people suddenly out of the blue reach all the heights of sovereignty, conquered half the world, built a fleet and, according to some reports (not the OI), conquered Japan.
      And then he degraded again to the primitive communal level, and if not for the USSR, then there would have been no Mongolia. Are such tricks possible in history?
      I ask the author to answer this question.
      1. arturpraetor
        17 June 2020 01: 42
        10
        Quote: Bar1
        Are such tricks in history possible?

        Are possible. Because
        1) The Mongols - still not a primitive system;
        2) Nomadic peoples, with a nomadic system, under certain circumstances are able to increase organization to a very high level and go to the big bend of everyone they reach, sometimes even organizing large migrations of peoples - like the Huns or Avars already mentioned in the comments;
        3) But the nomadic system tends to lose organization. Very quickly, rapidly, literally in several generations without a strong central power of the khan / kagan, due to its features.
        Within the Middle Ages, nomads are capable of both lightning-fast progress (the Magyars from the nomads quickly bent along the path of everyone and everything, switched to a settled system and washed down their cozy kingdom), and to rapid degradation. The same empire of the Huns broke up at lightning speed. These are the features of the nomadic system, it is extremely unstable in terms of organization, but in both directions - in plus and minus.
        But the Mongols simply had the stars in a row - overpopulation of the steppes, weakened sedentary states (almost all countries on the path of the Mongols had serious internal problems and could not give an organized rebuff) and a really outstanding leader in the person of Temujin, who was able to maximize the benefits of connecting nomad hordes and the conquered sedentary population, and at the same time to raise the organization of the steppes to great heights, at the same time subduing them wherever they could reach. Without a figure of this scale, the Mongol empire was doomed to collapse, and it would not have appeared.
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 17 June 2020 08: 53
          -4
          Quote: arturpraetor
          The Mongols are still not a primitive system;

          this is a controversial point of view. But did the Mongols themselves deal with iron or did they exchange it with the Chinese for their skins? Perhaps the second.

          Quote: arturpraetor
          Nomadic peoples, with a nomadic system, under certain circumstances, are able to increase organization to a very high level and go into the great bend of all,

          the same thing, again a controversial point of view, and considered for a long time.
          Nomads, like identical magnet poles, are not able to gather in a crowd for a long time, due to the fact that the food base of their nomads flocks grass in one place very quickly and therefore they must immediately disperse in different directions, otherwise, starving death to rams, horses. But such an order does not contribute to the development of society in any way. The population should be together for a long time to solve social contradictions.

          Quote: arturpraetor
          But the nomadic system tends to lose organization. Very quickly, rapidly, literally in several generations without a strong central power of the khan / kagan, due to its features.

          Well, you yourself came up with it.
          The Magyars are some kind of unfortunate example, because like the nomads the Magyars were able to develop and build a civilized society with cities. But the Hungarians with their civilization also create many questions that the OI are not able to answer. And the Mongols built the cities of Karakarum, Sarai, but they degraded and their cities collapsed, so Karakarum still cannot be found. And this fact is very strange. Incomprehensible, and therefore not proven.
          Gunas and Avars are the book names of peoples that have been lost in the depths of history. There are such writers as Mavro Orbini and Andrei Lyzlov, and so they wrote that all these gunas, Scythians, Alans, and Avars are just different tribes of the same people - Slavic or Scythian, as the ancestor of the Slavic. For which they are simply withdrawn from the circulation

          In short, the fact that nomads can develop to the heights of a settled civilized society no longer looks simply controversial and doubtful, but simply not logical or even scientific.
          In the REAL, non-paper world, there are several examples when nomads became a civilized people. These are the same Mongols, Kyrgyz, Kazakhs — they became civilized peoples thanks to the Russian people, who built cities for them, gave culture, economy and led them into the civilized world.
          But self-development from nomads to civilization is what they want to pass off as real.
          1. tlauicol
            tlauicol 17 June 2020 12: 00
            +4
            You do not recall who by profession was Subedeus-bagatura? A blacksmith or from China drove clothes?
            1. Usher
              Usher 17 June 2020 20: 01
              +1
              Son of a blacksmith
          2. arturpraetor
            17 June 2020 15: 42
            +3
            Quote: Bar1
            this is a controversial point of view

            Quote: Bar1
            same thing, again controversial point of view

            Better a controversial point of view than conspiracy theories. Moreover, this "controversial" evidence is still more than "there were no Mongols at all, there was no one, historians are all lying."

            I apologize, I will not answer your comment, because I don’t see the point because of your sliding into super-Russians and Hyperborea, and I value my time.
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 17 June 2020 16: 15
              -3
              Quote: arturpraetor
              I apologize, I will not answer your comment, because I don’t see the point because of your sliding into super-Russians and Hyperborea, and I value my time.

              Well, if at a gallop across Europe, then everything is clear to you.
              As for the term debatable, this is a synonym for lack of proof.
              Of course, the miserable tribe of the Khalkhs in the Mongolian steppe didn’t have a great past, of course it was a fictional story. And it was invented by German historians in the service of Russia. Now this is clear to everyone.
          3. Usher
            Usher 17 June 2020 19: 59
            +3
            Quote: Bar1
            Quote: arturpraetor
            The Mongols are still not a primitive system;

            this is a controversial point of view. But did the Mongols themselves deal with iron or did they exchange it with the Chinese for their skins? Perhaps the second.

            Quote: arturpraetor
            Nomadic peoples, with a nomadic system, under certain circumstances, are able to increase organization to a very high level and go into the great bend of all,

            the same thing, again a controversial point of view, and considered for a long time.
            Nomads, like identical magnet poles, are not able to gather in a crowd for a long time, due to the fact that the food base of their nomads flocks grass in one place very quickly and therefore they must immediately disperse in different directions, otherwise, starving death to rams, horses. But such an order does not contribute to the development of society in any way. The population should be together for a long time to solve social contradictions.

            Quote: arturpraetor
            But the nomadic system tends to lose organization. Very quickly, rapidly, literally in several generations without a strong central power of the khan / kagan, due to its features.

            Well, you yourself came up with it.
            The Magyars are some kind of unfortunate example, because like the nomads the Magyars were able to develop and build a civilized society with cities. But the Hungarians with their civilization also create many questions that the OI are not able to answer. And the Mongols built the cities of Karakarum, Sarai, but they degraded and their cities collapsed, so Karakarum still cannot be found. And this fact is very strange. Incomprehensible, and therefore not proven.
            Gunas and Avars are the book names of peoples that have been lost in the depths of history. There are such writers as Mavro Orbini and Andrei Lyzlov, and so they wrote that all these gunas, Scythians, Alans, and Avars are just different tribes of the same people - Slavic or Scythian, as the ancestor of the Slavic. For which they are simply withdrawn from the circulation

            In short, the fact that nomads can develop to the heights of a settled civilized society no longer looks simply controversial and doubtful, but simply not logical or even scientific.
            In the REAL, non-paper world, there are several examples when nomads became a civilized people. These are the same Mongols, Kyrgyz, Kazakhs — they became civilized peoples thanks to the Russian people, who built cities for them, gave culture, economy and led them into the civilized world.
            But self-development from nomads to civilization is what they want to pass off as real.

            You ? You first ride the world. Learn life and history, then open your mouth. You don’t even know the trivial facts, and you still judge something. Blacksmithing was developed among the steppes of multilingual and Turkic peoples as well as among other peoples. You do not refute the fact of history, for example, Japan and Korea? Or India? Or Georgia? This is evidenced by finds. And the state of the Mongols is the same proven fact as the existence of other peoples and states. If only because the Mongols are reflected in the history and annals of all neighboring states and peoples. And many peoples and tribes, for example, in Central Asia have been ethnogenesis since those times. When many Mongol tribes left for the conquered territories. And they were assimilated. This gives rise to misconceptions among Tajiks / Uzbeks / Kazakhs and Turkmens that supposedly Genghis Khan them.
            1. The comment was deleted.
      2. BAI
        BAI 17 June 2020 15: 12
        +4
        No matter how much I ask a simple question, how did the primitive communal people Suddenly out of the blue reach all the heights of sovereignty, conquer half the world

        All kinds of Huns, Scythians. Not just degraded. but generally disappeared from the face of the earth. The state of Attila existed while he was alive. After him - disappeared.
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 17 June 2020 15: 57
          -2
          Quote: BAI
          No matter how much I ask a simple question, how did the primitive communal people Suddenly out of the blue reach all the heights of sovereignty, conquer half the world

          All kinds of Huns, Scythians. Not just degraded. but generally disappeared from the face of the earth. The state of Attila existed while he was alive. After him - disappeared.

          the fact is that all ANTIQUITY is anti-reality. The Huns and Scythians themselves did not remain to our times, and the Mongols remained in the form of miserable primitive peoples, but with a great history.
          1. Usher
            Usher 17 June 2020 19: 53
            +2
            Quote: Bar1
            Quote: BAI
            No matter how much I ask a simple question, how did the primitive communal people Suddenly out of the blue reach all the heights of sovereignty, conquer half the world

            All kinds of Huns, Scythians. Not just degraded. but generally disappeared from the face of the earth. The state of Attila existed while he was alive. After him - disappeared.

            the fact is that all ANTIQUITY is anti-reality. The Huns and Scythians themselves did not remain to our times, and the Mongols remained in the form of miserable primitive peoples, but with a great history.

            Primitive? Don't accidentally blab it in the presence of Kalmyks / Buryats / Mongols
            Just look at the holiday https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ndpyuc3d0js the same level as at Russian fairs. Where did you see primitivism? Do you know that the best minters for silver jewelry are Mongolian and Buryat?
      3. Usher
        Usher 17 June 2020 19: 48
        +1
        Quote: Bar1
        Tataromongols in world history is the strangest episode in official history. How much I would not ask a simple question, how did the primitive communal people suddenly out of the blue reach all the heights of sovereignty, conquered half the world, built a fleet and, according to some reports (not the OI), conquered Japan.
        And then he degraded again to the primitive communal level, and if not for the USSR, then there would have been no Mongolia. Are such tricks possible in history?
        I ask the author to answer this question.

        What are you talking about? What is the primary communal system? Do you think that the Atlantean civilizations lived next to the Mongols and everyone flew on plates? Everyone had the same thing.
      4. Nikolay Lazarev
        Nikolay Lazarev 17 July 2020 17: 49
        0
        Keep
      5. gsev
        gsev 22 July 2020 12: 59
        0
        Quote: Bar1
        Are such tricks in history possible?

        Afghanistan defeated Great Britain at the peak of its power (Russia then lost the Crimean War), defeated the USSR, whose allies defeated the United States, and now the United States is talking not about a complete victory over the Taliban, but about the conditions for leaving this country. The mobilization resource of all these countries has always been higher than the Afghan one.
  2. 7,62h54
    7,62h54 16 June 2020 18: 15
    +1
    RomanOvichi will survive in any situation
  3. Lannan Shi
    Lannan Shi 16 June 2020 18: 47
    -5
    and thanks to the absorption of all the other steppes, they had a large number.

    Heh heh. Here in the Russian-Turkish war of 1828-29, under 80% of the losses of the Russian army was from illness and not in battles. By the way. Have you ever been with the Mongols, those who were real nomads, never talked to live? If they feel, they wash 2 times. The first when he was born, the second when he died. From hygienic procedures - rubbing the body with lamb fat. Do you know what an indescribable flavor in Mongolian buses? I will not say for the capital, but in Darkhan .... I turned inside out, after a five-minute trip. Can you tell me how, people with such habits, managed to gather large masses of troops, so that these same troops did not die out from everything in a row, starting with an upset stomach and ending with cholera?
    By the way. In Europe, in those years, the situation where after a week of march from the army half remains, is not that it was a rarity. The French, Germans, British packs and in the 19th century they died. Napoleon accounted for about 25 percent military losses, the rest died of diarrhea. The British, falling into an unusual climate, in India, for example, could lose up to 90% of the contingent in a year. How do the Mongols fall out of the general list? These children are dry steppes, but in a humid Russian climate ... Even their horses in the north-west of the European part of the country are dying of humidity. How did these terminators roam? That's just according to the logic of things, by the end of the campaign of that same Batu Khan, he should have remained proudly alone). Unusual climate, unusual food, unusual water, unusual disease. But these terminators all won. Yeah yeah yeah
    1. arturpraetor
      16 June 2020 19: 04
      14
      Quote: Lannan Shi
      Heh heh. Here in the Russian-Turkish war of 1828-29, under 80% of the losses of the Russian army was from illness and not in battles.

      A completely different time and other realities. Plus another geography and a different number of troops. In short, the conditions are comparable only with poor knowledge or complete disregard for the materiel.
      Quote: Lannan Shi
      Have you ever been with the Mongols, those who were real nomads, never talked to live?

      Comparing modern Mongols with those is stupid.

      I will not answer further, because the whole commentary is in the style of "I did not learn the materiel, I do not see the difference in anything, I compare an elephant seal with a land one, but I know exactly what was there!"
      1. Lannan Shi
        Lannan Shi 16 June 2020 20: 11
        -5
        Quote: arturpraetor
        A completely different time and other realities.

        Those. were bacteria more liberal in the 13th century? Or basically did not touch the Mongol? Really. A completely different reality.
        Quote: arturpraetor
        Plus another geography and a different number of troops.

        Oh yeah. So, for information. In Bulgaria and near Anapa, where half of the Russian army was active, sanatoriums were built from time immemorial. Where the patients recovered. And in Vladimir’s swamps - ITU, where healthy people were dying. The number of troops, by the way, according to your own words, is very close. 60 in Bulgaria, against 30 in Batu. The Russians were dying in batches, the Mongols were like cucumbers. It smacks of Russophobia and Mongolophilia, if that.
        Quote: arturpraetor
        Comparing modern Mongols with those is stupid.

        Agree. Modern, against the background of those times - geniuses of sanitation. At least they know that there is such a thing as soap. Specialists from the USSR told.
        Quote: arturpraetor
        "I did not teach the materiel, I do not see the difference in anything,

        So learn. Who's stopping you? And even better ... I give such advice to all Mongolophiles. Fly to Mongolia. Live a month at least. Yes, not in the hotel of Lancer-Bator, but in the neighborhood with the nomad. At times heals the desire to compose about the Mongol-Tatars.
        PS
        By the way. As a lover of speculating on equipment. Change the picture. Huh? The horses depicted in your drawing will die in the steppe during the first frosts. And those in the steppe can survive ... They will not drag riders from the picture. More precisely, the riders will be dragged away, but their beautiful equipment is missing. For horse physiology is against. That stupid laws of nature are. No, I understand, all this is boring, different zoologies to study, but physicists. But this is exactly what materiel is. And not different secret traditions, it is not known by which master, painted from fakes, and stewed by long-nosed barbarians for a couple of coins ..
      2. Esoteric
        Esoteric 16 June 2020 20: 28
        -2
        The picture is gorgeous. But the question is - and what, exactly, did this horde feed on? Where did you get the food?
        1. arturpraetor
          16 June 2020 20: 35
          +8
          The most important source of food - horse meat - the steppe inhabitants always drove with them. Of course, they didn’t eat the same horses they fought on. Steppe horses are unpretentious in food and care, therefore, problems in this regard were not particularly observed. Although, of course, when large masses of troops gathered, it was necessary to do what the sedentaries did in such cases, however, centuries later - on the march they divided their army in parts.

          Plus, Chinese logistics was added to the traditional steppe logistics, and the Chinese knew something about this.

          Of course, all this does not work if you imagine the Mongols as naked, barren unwashed barbarians who did not use the potential of the conquered peoples.
          1. Esoteric
            Esoteric 16 June 2020 20: 43
            -4
            Well, honestly, at the expense of China. I do not believe in its antiquity. I believe philologists who claim (not engaged) that Chinese is a young language, and in no way can it be thousands of years old.
            Again, their "discoveries". Just remember the scandal associated with the tables of logarithms, which was written by the Scottish scientist Knepper, and which were allegedly in China long before that. Plagiarism evidence is reinforced concrete. In the Chinese "ancient manuscripts" all the typos in Nepper's work are one to one. They ripped it off and passed it off as their own. I am sure that gunpowder is a European invention, which the Chinese also passed off as their own.
            1. Nikolay Lazarev
              Nikolay Lazarev 17 July 2020 17: 56
              +1
              One of the most ancient buildings in China, the watchtower at HandZhou, has now been restored from ruins. So the Chinese themselves estimate her age at only 300 years.
          2. Lannan Shi
            Lannan Shi 16 June 2020 20: 51
            +2
            Quote: arturpraetor
            Steppe horses are unpretentious in food and care, therefore, problems in this regard were not particularly observed.

            So, for information. In Mongolia, there is such a term - Dzud. It happens different. Separate by color. Specifically, white dzud is when the thickness of the snow cover exceeds 20 cm. Then the sheep begin to die. When over 30 - cattle. And when over 40 ... The death of horses begins. A cattle cannot dig out snow above the specified limits. At 35-40 cm, something else is twisted. They let the horses in front, they break the snow, followed by the cows, the last sheep. Many die but many survive. But 40 cm is the limit. Did not hear? It happens.
            And taking into account that the norm of snow cover in the center and in the north of the European part of Russia is about a meter .... And the horse cannot eat grain. More precisely, it can. The truth then dies very quickly and efficiently. With a probability of exactly 100%. For the transfer of a horse from grass to grain, especially if this horse has not eaten grain in life, is not a matter of one week .... Then there will definitely not be any problems if you arrive on steppe horses in the Moscow Region. No horse - no problem. Is not it? laughing
            Py.Sy.
            By the way. This is really a materiel. Boring zoology, in the bud, killing stories about hordes of steppes in Russian forests. Here they die from starvation there and the point. Nature laws. Their, unlike, well, as it were, genuine fables. real eyewitnesses, faking a little harder yes
            1. tlauicol
              tlauicol 17 June 2020 08: 53
              +7
              Lannan, you don’t know: how was snow today in Yakutia? Probably not, since the horses are alive request And in Udmurtia? Bashkiria, in Altai? Or was it canceled by decree?
              In Buryatia, Yakutia, Altai, and the Urals, horses are often generally grazed for the whole winter. Alone. Collect in the spring, tourists ride. And there is nothing surprising in this. This is a common practice, as for Mongolian snow in the winter - everyday life.
              Well, about a special diet for Mongolian horses - Hahaha - in Baikal horses are generally fed with fish
              1. Lannan Shi
                Lannan Shi 17 June 2020 10: 22
                0
                Quote: Tlauicol
                Lannan, you don’t know: how was snow today in Yakutia? Probably not, since the horses are alive

                Well, why not. It was very. And as usual, less than 40 cm.
                Quote: Tlauicol
                In Buryatia, Yakutia, Altai, and the Urals, horses are often generally grazed for the whole winter. Alone.

                Well, let's drop the first two. For Google to help, the climate of Buryatia and Yakutia. Altai. Mounds of Pazyryk and Shibinsky. The horses, fed with grain, are buried. The Bashkirs, at all times, covered by at least some reliable sources, and not "stories of old-timers", were not nomads. And they were engaged in semi-nomadic cattle breeding. Hibernating in villages, in which, as a surprise, they calmly stored hay. Where did the conflicts with the Russian settlers come from, who tried to wrest the land of wintering.
                Kind. Those who talk about hordes of evil mugals, burning the city and at the same time sweeping, are extremely far from the realities of life on earth. A sort of layer that thinks that cutlets are collected from cutlet bushes, and dumplings, along with potatoes, are digged from the ground. Even in Mongolia, where the climate is ideal for you, wintering is a blow to cattle’s health. By spring, a Mongolian horse loses 30 to 40% of its weight. Translated to human standards, this is dystrophy. At the same time, she grazes around the clock, looking up only for sleep. He doesn’t carry anyone anywhere, that is, he does not waste energy. If you start to drive it on all kinds of campaigns and battles ... Here, hang a weight of a couple of pounds on the dystrophic, and make it run for 10 kilometers. And so the Mongolian horse will die if it starts to drive in the winter. And not just under the rider, but under the armed rider. The essence of the problem is not only in the depths of the snow, but also in the fact that under this snow there is no hay, and not even dry grass, as historians think pros. There is what horses call trash. Scorched by the sun, repeatedly washed by the rains, there are fewer fodder units than straw. And even a stomach full of this rubbish is not able to block the loss of energy. Somehow I wondered how much such trash a horse working in the winter needed so as not to starve. It leaves in the centner area per day. This dose is generally for the elephant’s stomach, and not for the horse.
                That horse can not work in winter, in cold weather, on the pasture. Only survive. And then, without a guarantee of success. Just the laws of the universe. And to argue with this - how to argue that the sky is made of crystal glass, and the stars are screwed to it on screws. She spoke to the Mongolophiles hundreds of times. We study natural sciences. At least at the level of a solid three.
                1. tlauicol
                  tlauicol 17 June 2020 10: 32
                  +5
                  what does natural science say about the average depth of snow cover in Ryaz.obl? And why did this science forbid the Mongols to eat Russian hay and oats, harvested a year in advance?
                2. tlauicol
                  tlauicol 17 June 2020 12: 39
                  +3
                  As for the horses from the Pazyryk mounds, the Pazyryk people had so much grain that even their iconic geldings weren’t enough for their leaders yes . A part of the horses there are ordinary Mongolians, which is typical, they dragged sled drags with all this junk into the mountains. And no one fed them anything. I also had to kill. The Pazyryks nomadic culture, the grain was mainly traded, but not produced, and it was very small.
                  By the way, I came back from there last night
                3. Usher
                  Usher 17 June 2020 20: 05
                  +3
                  Quote: Lannan Shi
                  Quote: Tlauicol
                  Lannan, you don’t know: how was snow today in Yakutia? Probably not, since the horses are alive

                  Well, why not. It was very. And as usual, less than 40 cm.
                  Quote: Tlauicol
                  In Buryatia, Yakutia, Altai, and the Urals, horses are often generally grazed for the whole winter. Alone.

                  Well, let's drop the first two. For Google to help, the climate of Buryatia and Yakutia. Altai. Mounds of Pazyryk and Shibinsky. The horses, fed with grain, are buried. The Bashkirs, at all times, covered by at least some reliable sources, and not "stories of old-timers", were not nomads. And they were engaged in semi-nomadic cattle breeding. Hibernating in villages, in which, as a surprise, they calmly stored hay. Where did the conflicts with the Russian settlers come from, who tried to wrest the land of wintering.
                  Kind. Those who talk about hordes of evil mugals, burning the city and at the same time sweeping, are extremely far from the realities of life on earth. A sort of layer that thinks that cutlets are collected from cutlet bushes, and dumplings, along with potatoes, are digged from the ground. Even in Mongolia, where the climate is ideal for you, wintering is a blow to cattle’s health. By spring, a Mongolian horse loses 30 to 40% of its weight. Translated to human standards, this is dystrophy. At the same time, she grazes around the clock, looking up only for sleep. He doesn’t carry anyone anywhere, that is, he does not waste energy. If you start to drive it on all kinds of campaigns and battles ... Here, hang a weight of a couple of pounds on the dystrophic, and make it run for 10 kilometers. And so the Mongolian horse will die if it starts to drive in the winter. And not just under the rider, but under the armed rider. The essence of the problem is not only in the depths of the snow, but also in the fact that under this snow there is no hay, and not even dry grass, as historians think pros. There is what horses call trash. Scorched by the sun, repeatedly washed by the rains, there are fewer fodder units than straw. And even a stomach full of this rubbish is not able to block the loss of energy. Somehow I wondered how much such trash a horse working in the winter needed so as not to starve. It leaves in the centner area per day. This dose is generally for the elephant’s stomach, and not for the horse.
                  That horse can not work in winter, in cold weather, on the pasture. Only survive. And then, without a guarantee of success. Just the laws of the universe. And to argue with this - how to argue that the sky is made of crystal glass, and the stars are screwed to it on screws. She spoke to the Mongolophiles hundreds of times. We study natural sciences. At least at the level of a solid three.

                  Why throw it? I don’t get it? Such a business man, they bring him to his nose, he will immediately "discard it." Don’t zvizdi. You generally rode a horse and was there, I was and rode. I actually come from there.
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 17 June 2020 20: 41
                    +2
                    Quote: Usher
                    So business

                    As I understand it, Lannan Shi is a girl. hi
                    1. Serg65
                      Serg65 18 June 2020 09: 12
                      -1
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      As I understand it, Lannan Shi is a girl

                      laughing Are you sure about that?
              2. pmkemcity
                pmkemcity 14 August 2020 11: 54
                +1
                Quote: Tlauicol
                Hahaha - at Baikal, horses are generally fed with fish

                No one believes, "nomads" say that a horse is a pure animal, it can be so. At the Kamensky (Kamen on the Ob) meat-packing plant, a meat-packing plant was used, which ate meat of slaughtered animals (exclusively overcooked minced meat). And on Baikal, in 2015 in the Peschanaya Bay, personally from my camp, brutalized cows ate shish kebabs that were not eaten by the company in the evening (it was already dark) and carefully folded into a pot (about half a 10 liter boiler). Only one girl remained on duty, whom they sent "for hay", although she broke an aluminum oar on the back of one cow.
            2. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
              Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 17 June 2020 15: 49
              0
              So, in your opinion, there was no Mongol invasion? Or was it? ...
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        2. bk0010
          bk0010 16 June 2020 21: 51
          +5
          They plundered the villages along the way: for example, if the family is for 10 people, then for the winter they should stock 3 (eat food once a day) * 120 (winter days) * 10 (people) = 3600 servings. And this is from one house in the village. And in the evening the next village will be destroyed. They fought in the winter, so there were supplies. And for the horses too.
      3. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 16 June 2020 20: 30
        +4
        I won’t answer further
        The right decision! For the "apple tree", both with history and with common sense, which it boasts so much, is by no means "ice".
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 16 June 2020 20: 58
          12
          Yes, a person thinks in the style "I don't know anything and I don't want to know, but I vomited on the bus with the Mongols, so there could be no invasion." By the way, I fumbled with Lannan Shi for a long time, trying to inspire a desire to read at least something on the topic, but "the Chukchi is not a reader, the Chukchi is a writer." There is nothing you can do about it. request
          1. tlauicol
            tlauicol 17 June 2020 09: 05
            +5
            you nitsche nipanimaichi - horses oats no way am , die, darling crying
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 17 June 2020 10: 16
              +5
              Before my eyes, one horse chopped turnips, only crunching and splashing. smile
              Was it a crazy horse? laughing
              1. tlauicol
                tlauicol 17 June 2020 10: 20
                +4
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Before my eyes, one horse chopped turnips, only crunching and splashing. smile
                Was it a crazy horse? laughing

                the Mongols did not have this stop and in general they attacked not from the Ryazan-Vladimir border, but jumped from the Kerulen valley - there was no time for a local diet and everyone died am
                I'm not talking about the average depth of snow cover in the Ryazan / Vladimir region. in 30-35cm. But they wanted to meter in the snowdrifts - they never saw them, so they climbed yes
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 17 June 2020 10: 52
                  +4
                  Sometimes I also get the impression that our "skeptics" think so - from Kerulen itself, how they started - so without stopping to the Adriatic and reached.
                  Screaming like stung - but how, thousands of kilometers, what to eat, snow, horses, can not be ...
                  And now I imagine them in the place of some Mongol, to whom a certain Temujin came to a yurt and says: "Listen, I need to transfer the tumens from the heels to the western borders of the Jochi ulus, plus then to make an aggressive campaign with a total length of about 1500 Calculate me, be a friend, how long it will take, what resources, who will take which road, how much and what kind of fodder to cook, where to leave, etc. You know better than me. If you do a bad job - you will kill me horses and people - I I will slaughter you and all your family on the edge of that ditch. If you do it well, I will reward you. Think for a couple of days, then report back. Well, good luck! "
                  I am sure that with such motivation, all these "skeptics" would certainly find ways to get around all their current "impossible". laughing
        2. Catfish
          Catfish 16 June 2020 21: 01
          +6
          Hello Anton. hi You know, I pass in these historical darkness of that time. But with regard to the Mongols ... In short, in the early seventies, one of my acquaintances was in that very Ulan Bator and, having returned, shared his impressions. You walk, grit, down the street, and towards you a beautiful local woman in a white trouser suit, a raven-colored mane to the waist, slanting eyes are burning, the figure is completely dead, passes by you ... and you gallop to the nearest urn, because a civilized person is on " the deck "is not accustomed. So Valerka lived the whole short business trip "on dry", and he promised to go to Mongolia more for no reason. request drinks
          1. Esoteric
            Esoteric 16 June 2020 21: 11
            +2
            The sea cat, from our beautiful, ancient, who did not bend before anyone, including the princes of Moscow, the most beloved city of Ryazan. Hello !!!
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 16 June 2020 21: 23
              +2
              Hello to you, Dmitry! From the Ryazan heartland, where Moscow Cats now grow, and especially sea ones. smile
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 16 June 2020 21: 16
            +8
            Uncle Kostya! hi
            Hence the conclusion: nefig measure historical processes, on personal, momentary impressions and affections!
            Remembering Vysotsky ..
            "She snores, she's dirty,
            And the eye is broken, and the legs are different,
            Always dressed like a squalor
            And I want it even more! "
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 16 June 2020 21: 30
              +4
              "She walked on a wire,
              Waving a white foot
              And Morozov’s passion seized
              With your calloused hand. "
              Men always have problems with love ... request
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 16 June 2020 22: 50
                +3
                You can joke as much as you like, but, meanwhile, Vladimir Semenovich, perfectly described the appearance of our muse.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 17 June 2020 01: 09
                  +1
                  Speak for yourself, dear. I don’t know how often your muses wash, mine doesn’t get out of the bathroom, I have never seen a black eye in her life, her legs are slender, and she dresses with style. I’ll let her read today what you’ve scribbled here, she will write you tomorrow in pure Russian, regardless of her university education. laughing
                  1. Lexus
                    Lexus 17 June 2020 01: 23
                    +3
                    Uncle Kostya, ate the girl together, engaged in each other. laughing
                    Few people know what we, in the Ryazan region, weeds grow. And our curcules are unjustly underestimated. If dispossessed correctly, hay would not only be enough for all horses, but Batu would be fed. laughing
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 17 June 2020 02: 39
                      +2
                      Lesch, we’re just fooling around with boredom. wink
          3. Usher
            Usher 17 June 2020 20: 08
            +4
            Quote: Sea Cat
            Hello Anton. hi You know, I pass in these historical darkness of that time. But with regard to the Mongols ... In short, in the early seventies, one of my acquaintances was in that very Ulan Bator and, having returned, shared his impressions. You walk, grit, down the street, and towards you a beautiful local woman in a white trouser suit, a raven-colored mane to the waist, slanting eyes are burning, the figure is completely dead, passes by you ... and you gallop to the nearest urn, because a civilized person is on " the deck "is not accustomed. So Valerka lived the whole short business trip "on dry", and he promised to go to Mongolia more for no reason. request drinks

            Do you think Rusich in those days smelled better? Look at the YouTube channel when the dude decided to live like a medieval peasant in Russia)))
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 17 June 2020 20: 40
              +1
              I do not watch channels on YouTube, I look at the life around me. And by the way, when you call me "Rusich", what do you mean? If they meant nationality, then there are so many "bloods" mixed in me ... However, I consider myself Russian, for I was brought up on Russian culture, and I speak and think only in Russian. Do you have a complex about your own nationality?
              And let's keep within, do not poke strangers.
        3. Lannan Shi
          Lannan Shi 16 June 2020 21: 12
          +2
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          For the "apple tree", both with history and with common sense, which it boasts so much, is by no means "ice".

          Laponka. But the apple has an ice with a knowledge of the world. The apple tree, unlike you, knows perfectly well that half a meter of snow, and starvation, are for the Mongol synonymous. Why in Mongolia these same 45-50 cm are considered a national disaster, the most terrible catastrophe, worse than the most terrible drought. That is why your fairy tales about hordes of the Mongols roaming meter-long snowdrifts can not cause anything but laughter. People even know a little about the very Mongols that you spread gossip about.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 16 June 2020 21: 26
            +2
            Lady love Anton doesn’t want to go to "Laponka" - well, here is the holy cross, by God. laughing
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 16 June 2020 22: 12
            +4
            My dear little bitch !!! I love you with all my heart! I am very pleased with our confrontation, fortunately, it is not gender, but intellectual.
            Your knowledge of the world around you, corresponds only to the reality surrounding you, known by you. From this, you draw your revelations, which you set forth on this resource.
            But Clio, although a corrupt girl like Nemesis, is all one, will choose the best who worship her.
            In my opinion, you are not among the favorites.
          3. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 16 June 2020 23: 00
            +5
            Dear serif! I was born and raised in those places where half a meter of snow is sweeping overnight. And nothing! Old-timers told, the horses of the reindeer pulled apart faster than deer, and ate hunting.
            1. Lannan Shi
              Lannan Shi 16 June 2020 23: 24
              +4
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              I was born and raised in those places where half a meter of snow is sweeping overnight. And nothing! Old-timers told, the horses of the reindeer pulled apart faster than deer, and ate hunting.

              You understand what business. With half a meter of snow, the elbow joint of a horse, even a European, will go so deep into the snow that it stupidly cannot rake it. Just can not throw it above the level of cover. Will loosen, but do not dig. That's just the anatomy of a horse. And the old-timers, yes, of course. They will tell you about the crucian carp, with eyes more than a soup plate. Just let us focus on the science in the debate, and not on the old-timers fables. Huh?
          4. tlauicol
            tlauicol 17 June 2020 09: 48
            +3
            just half a meter of snow in Mongolia is half a meter of crust - this is dzud / jud. six times denser than usual "Ryazan" snow
            1. Lannan Shi
              Lannan Shi 17 June 2020 10: 32
              -1
              Quote: Tlauicol
              just half a meter of snow in mongolia it's half a meter of nast

              Laponka. The icy snow is black dzud. And half a meter of snow, this is white dzud.
              Quote: Tlauicol
              six times denser than usual "Ryazan" snow

              Stale snow has a density in the region of 250-350 kg / m1500. And the Mongolian turns out, in your words, 2100-1.5. 2-XNUMX times denser than water. Hmm ... The pros of historians wander in mysterious ways .... We, a dull engineer, cannot understand you forever. yes
              1. tlauicol
                tlauicol 17 June 2020 10: 36
                +3
                little sis, 250-350 this February-March. Jude up to 650kg / mXNUMX
                and in December in Ryazan 15-20kg / mXNUMX.
                do not juggle tsiferki, zaenka
                1. Lannan Shi
                  Lannan Shi 17 June 2020 10: 54
                  -1
                  Quote: Tlauicol
                  little sis, 250-350 this February-March

                  Laponka. 250-300 is lying down a couple of weeks in a clean field. Z00-450 - lying down for more than a month. Dump, i.e. collected in snowdrifts, during cleaning, up to 500. Treat anyone else, not me. Without kopecks, for 10 winters, I watched over the KAMAZ trucks and WALVES. yes
                  Quote: Tlauicol
                  250-350 is February-March. Jude up to 650kg / mXNUMX

                  and 650 is 6 times more than 250-350? Perhaps I’ll finish arguing with you. We live in different worlds. With different physics, mathematics, zoology and geography. However, this is not news, for me. I have long noticed that pros historians write about a world very alternative to our Earth. With completely different laws of nature.
                  Dixi.
                  1. tlauicol
                    tlauicol 17 June 2020 11: 12
                    +3
                    600 is six times more than 100, honey. And 250-300 is a month of caking and more. Time November-December, fresh snow less than 100 will be. Well, let 100. About the snow collected in piles on the way of the Mongols, I’m not going to argue with you, berry.
                    And again, honey, don’t juggle tsiferki love
                  2. tlauicol
                    tlauicol 17 June 2020 15: 55
                    +2
                    Quote: Lannan Shi
                    We live in different worlds. With different physics, mathematics, zoology and geography.
                    Dixi.

                    yes, you even have a drought (black jude) it's ice request
                    and according to sabzh: in Ryazan in November 5cm of snow falls, and in December another 5. Less than 2mm per day - will we talk about density at such a depth? A hundred horses will pass, and there will be no subject at all
          5. Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
            Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 17 June 2020 15: 59
            -1
            The Mongols invaded Russia in winter along the ice of frozen rivers. Read this with Civilihin!
            And cards (two-typeset or something similar) their intelligence got, several years before working in Russia. Yes, plus local collaborators helped the Mongols. Like this. So there were no problems with snow. Yes, and the locals bent down and during the storming of our cities, they cleared their snow for us.
            At the transitions a day, the Mongol relied on several rice grains. So this question has been removed. But what to feed the horses is a mystery to me ... I don’t know. And I can’t think of anything - maybe they drove in a wagon train or on the eve of the invasion they placed it ahead of time on the road of the planned strike.
    2. Bashkirkhan
      Bashkirkhan 16 June 2020 19: 27
      +1
      Quote: Lannan Shi
      Unusual climate, unusual food, unusual water, unusual disease. But these terminators all won. Yeah yeah yeah

      Mongolo-Tatars are often represented as a horde of wild, dirty barbarians who are generally alien to human culture. In fact, the Mongols washed with the help of basins and, by the way, washed with the help of a kumgan after the departure of natural necessities. You yourself understand, riding without it for hours in the saddle in the heat of some non-comme il faut.
      1. Lannan Shi
        Lannan Shi 16 June 2020 21: 26
        +2
        Quote: Bashkirkhan
        In fact, the Mongols washed with basins and, by the way, washed with a kumgan

        In fact, the Mongols do not wash now. If they are from traditionalists. They are afraid to wet their feet, they are not suitable for a couple of meters to the river without urgent need. Wash off dirt - wash away luck. A pure body is the guarantee of all conceivable and inconceivable troubles. Nothing personal, no nationalism. Just Mongolian traditions. And if the Mongol suddenly washed. Yes, in the 13th century ... Either the name of this Mongol was either John, or Ivan, or Abram, or Hans. But certainly not bourgeois.
    3. Engineer
      Engineer 16 June 2020 21: 18
      +2
      Mixed up in a bunch of horses, people.))
      Can you tell me how, people with such habits, managed to gather large masses of troops, so that these same troops did not die out from everything in a row, starting with an upset stomach and ending with cholera?

      Russia is not a cholera place, and yet there is no yellow fever, etc. Not India in general
      Proximity to pets since childhood strengthens immunity. Those without it are eliminated at a tender age. Indigestion there too.
      The horses depicted in your drawing will die in the steppe during the first frosts. And those in the steppe can survive.

      If you read at least a little bit on the topic, it will become clear that the Mongols came to Russia from the Wild Field through Bulgaria. That is, they had an adaptation period. And the problem of horses, if there was one, was solved at the expense of captured local breeds, primarily Polovtsian. The climate of the Don and Volga steppes is already close to ours.
      The ranks of the Mongols were joined by Polovtsy and Mordovians — our neighbors who did not experience any inconvenience in the territory of Russia
      1. Lannan Shi
        Lannan Shi 16 June 2020 22: 40
        -1
        Quote: Engineer
        Russia is not a cholera place, and yet there is no yellow fever, etc. Not India in general

        Take an interest in losses from diseases, frostbite during the winter campaigns of the Second World War. And medicine in the spacecraft was noticeably better than its complete absence in the Mongols.
        Quote: Engineer
        Proximity to pets from childhood strengthens the immune system.

        Study the mortality statistics of peasants in the Russian Empire, and forget this nonsense.
        Quote: Engineer
        And the problem of horses, if there was one, was solved at the expense of captured local breeds, primarily Polovtsian.

        The horse of the cavalryman of the agricultural people of the Mongol will die. With a guarantee of 100%. She needs a stable. She needs haylage with a supply of hay. Barn with a supply of grain. But to roam with the stable, barn and hayloft is somewhat difficult. And if the Mongol acquires this good, then the Mongol will die.
        Quote: Engineer
        The ranks of the Mongols joined the Polovtsy and Mordovians

        Yeah. The game of civilization. Or what other strategy. Occupied a cell, it supplies recruits. Can I ask a question about backfill? Why did Mr. Shiklgruber not mobilize tens of millions of soldiers in Belarus and Ukraine. And also 3-4 dozens of mulens in all kinds of Czech Republics, Denmark and other Yugoslavia and France. And didn’t overwhelm Stalin, and then allies with mountains of corpses? If anything, then on 01.12.1941 the mobility potential of the territories that the Nazis found was at least twice, but rather three times higher than the Soviet one. Why was the percentage of heavy in Hitler’s army around 10, not 90? Everything is just like a perpendicular. As soon as these Heavi would have exceeded 2/3, the Germans would begin to be cut a little. And then Mr. Hitler would be upturned. Now transfer this picture to the Batu army. There are only a few Mongols. And who will listen to this very Batu? Drown in a puddle and begin to share power.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 16 June 2020 23: 24
          10
          Take an interest in losses from diseases, frostbite during the winter campaigns of the Second World War.

          It makes no sense. Too different conditions
          Study the mortality statistics of peasants in the Russian Empire, and forget this nonsense.

          It makes no sense. No categorization.
          The horse of the cavalryman of the agricultural people of the Mongol will die.

          Polovtsy, suddenly, nomads laughing
          Moreover, their horses are accustomed to both grass and grain.
          Yeah. The game of civilization. Or what other strategy. Occupied a cell, it supplies recruits. Can I ask a question about backfill? Why did Mr. Shiklgruber not mobilize tens of millions of soldiers in Belarus and Ukraine.

          Because he did not have the resources to arm such a mass and, according to his generals, underestimated such a possibility while being held captive by racial theory.
          Now transfer this picture to the Batu army. There are only a few Mongols.

          No, not units, hundreds and thousands. The Mongols formed the core of the army.
          The armies where the conquered peoples made up the majority are known.
          This is primarily the Roman army where, from the 2nd century CE, the natives of Italy have been less than half. By the middle of the 4th century they were almost gone.
          And who will listen to this very Batu? Drown in a puddle and begin to share power.

          That’s what happened. 2-3 generations later
          Denying the Mongol invasion, we must at the same time:
          1. Deny the Huns. Passed from Mongolia to France
          2. Deny the Turk. From Altai to the Black Sea steppes and Iran.
          3. Deny Juan Juan Avars. Passed from Mongolia to Hungary
          4. Deny the Ugrians. Passed from the Ural steppes to Hungary
          5. Deny the Crimean Tatars in one season reached Moscow. Despite the fact that Crimea is a hellish place in terms of diseases for the army
          All sources all archeology all in the trash. Rely only on your common sense. laughing
          1. arturpraetor
            16 June 2020 23: 34
            +7
            Quote: Engineer
            Denying the Mongol invasion, we must at the same time:
            1. Deny the Huns. Passed from Mongolia to France
            2. Deny the Turk. From Altai to the Black Sea steppes and Iran.
            3. Deny Juan Juan Avars. Passed from Mongolia to Hungary
            4. Deny the Ugrians. Passed from the Ural steppes to Hungary
            5. Deny the Crimean Tatars in one season reached Moscow. Despite the fact that Crimea is a hellish place in terms of diseases for the army
            All sources all archeology all in the trash.

            This should be written in the header of each topic about the Mongols, because ... Yes, because indeed, from the point of view of the history of the Great Steppe, the Mongols may be the coolest, but certainly not the only ones who were able to hi
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 16 June 2020 23: 39
              +6
              but certainly not the only ones who could in the big bend

              Avars are even more revealing. Miserable fugitives miraculously escaping from the Turks, having received a respite, defeat the Franks and squeeze the Byzantines. They bring to Europe stirrups, a spear with a noose and, in general, the concept of an armored equestrian suitable for both long-range and close combat
          2. Lannan Shi
            Lannan Shi 16 June 2020 23: 41
            -3
            Quote: Engineer
            It makes no sense. Too different conditions

            Ahhhh. Well yes. The Mongols spent the night in the Hilton, and dined in Pushkin.
            Quote: Engineer
            It makes no sense. No categorization.

            No and I don’t know where, these are not synonyms.
            Quote: Engineer
            Polovtsy, suddenly, nomads

            Truth? With cities and canals tens of kilometers? And the Russian Federation is not by chance a nomadic power? And then we have Kalmyks on the steppes of sheep grazing. Why aren’t we nomads?
            By the way. A non-nomad horse wants about 10 kg of feed per day. A horde of 30.000 of the Mongol type, such as the trekon, will consume 1 kiloton of fodder per day. or 2.000 carts. Or 300 thousand for the winter campaign. Nekhilo for nomads)
            Quote: Engineer
            Because he did not have the resources to arm such a mass and, according to his generals, underestimated such a possibility while being held captive by racial theory.

            Well no. He was simply smarter than his generals. That’s the whole secret.
            Quote: Engineer
            This is primarily the Roman army where, from the 2nd century CE, the natives of Italy have been less than half. By the middle of the 4th century they were almost gone.

            It is from this time on that the Roman emperors were given nicknames - Thracian, Etruscan, Arab, Gaul. Exactly what I’m talking about. The local Roman Batu is small under the knife, and on the throne himself. For the one who has power will rule and not the one who voluntarily gave it to strangers. They just gave a brilliant example, yeah lol
            Quote: Engineer
            All sources all archeology all in the trash.

            Sources? Definitely. A certain trilobite did not explain to me why a fake telling about the mountains on the Don and Volga flowing into the Black Sea is a source, not delirium. And why should I believe him, and not Meliksetov, an academician, an orientalist who explained in Russian in black that the whole history of that very China was a grandiose fake. But archeology is still yes, it is still curious. What, have they unearthed the graves of the Mongol warriors near Vladimir or Kolomna? Well, share the news.
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 16 June 2020 23: 54
              +5
              Truth? With cities and canals tens of kilometers?

              Truth. Only roamed the seasons. You can call semi-nomads. Polovtsian cities are permanent wintering places that served as trading places. Channels are on the conscience of your sources.
              A horde of 30.000 of the Mongol type, such as the trekon, will consume 1 kiloton of fodder per day. or 2.000 carts

              That is, the Crimean raids and the Moscow fire, definitely fiction?
              It is from this time on that the Roman emperors were given nicknames - Thracian, Etruscan, Arab, Gaul. Exactly what I’m talking about. The local Roman Batu is small under the knife, and on the throne himself.

              And here there is no contradiction, the Mongol Empire incorporated foreigners much wider than the Roman and much faster, well, so it broke up many times faster. And the massacre, everything was
              why should I believe him, and not Meliksetov, an academician, an orientalist who explained in black in Russian that the whole history of that very China was a grandiose fake.

              What the best lie. Here is his work
              Enlighten
              http://istfak-brsu.narod.ru/32578_meliksetov_a_v_istoriya_kitaya.pdf
              Where is it about the fake? He’s starting from Shan times
              1. Lannan Shi
                Lannan Shi 17 June 2020 00: 28
                -1
                Quote: Engineer
                You can call semi-nomads.

                Oh how. Well then, the USSR was definitely a semi-nomadic power. Cows were sent to the fields for the whole season. They put them in a stall for the winter. Semi-nomadic power with space rockets. Strongly, yes.
                Determining a nomadic people or a sedentary one is not based on whether or not sheep are rubbed on the outskirts of the country, but on the basis of their GDP. But the fact that ten square kilometers of oversupply will produce more than a completely solid city is, well, very doubtful.
                Quote: Engineer
                That is, the Crimean raids and the Moscow fire, definitely fiction?

                And were the Crimean Tatars nomads? From so much news. But Yevpatoriya, for example, how do they migrate? They took an armpit, put it on a cart?
                Quote: Engineer
                And there is no contradiction

                Of course not. It’s just that the Mongol did not actually belong to the Tatars. So they didn’t slaughter Batu, because of its non-Mongol character.
                Quote: Engineer
                What the best lie. Here is his work
                Enlighten

                And I begin to enlighten with the introduction. There are sometimes a lot of interesting things.
                Usually, each new dynasty, after its establishment on the throne, created a commission of professional historians whose task was to write the history of the previous dynasty. In total, there are traditionally 24 such stories. They were compiled by highly qualified specialists who sought to fairly objectively expound the historical events of the preceding dynasty. and lead the reader to conclusions that were supposed to confirm the legitimacy of the ruling dynasty. Naturally, the proof of the legitimacy of the new dynasty sometimes required a new interpretation and events of the distant past. In this case, the members of these commissions (they were not just historians, but officials in the history department!) Dissected the historical material in the right spirit. However, this “rewriting” of history took place with strict observance of Confucian ethics and didactics accumulated over the centuries, and a moral teaching: history has always had to confirm that only those who have the highest grace-virtue de can get a heavenly sanction to rule China (the Celestial Empire). It is the possession of de and his loss that underlie the laws of movement of dynastic cycles.

                A man writes to you at the very beginning of the book - they planed history as it should. To prove that all the previous ones are dirt under the nails, and only a new dynasty is grace from heaven. They touched history continuously. Officials sculpted the order, by order of those in power. Em? Written by order, in order to whitewash whoever needs to, denigrate everyone in a row, bring the base to justify the seizure of power. What's this? Isn't that a fake? And what, then, in your opinion?
                By the way. Books are burning in China now. The last time a fire was fired last fall. And do you seriously expect to find any reliable sources in the country with this approach to remaking history? Naivety is unlimited.
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 17 June 2020 11: 14
                  +4
                  Determining a nomadic people or a sedentary one is not based on whether or not sheep are rubbed on the outskirts of the country, but on the basis of their GDP.

                  Then nomads do not exist by definition. For if thousands and thousands of pastoralists live on subsistence farming, they do not generate GDP. GDP will only be if they drive livestock to the market. Then they will immediately appear according to your concept. And before coming to the market there are no nomads laughing

                  And were the Crimean Tatars nomads? From so much news. But Yevpatoria, for example, are they wandering like a nomad?

                  Nomads, and Evpatoria was founded by the Greeks. Why take it when wandering? Do you generally understand the difference between the livestock breeding of the Polovtsy and ancient Turks and the year-round Mongols?
                  You evade the direct question of 30 thousand Crimean Tatars on horses did not burn Moscow?
                  A man writes to you at the very beginning of the book — they planed history as it should.

                  A person writes that written sources should be treated with caution. And he writes the history of China on the basis of these sources using the methods of historical criticism. And comparing with the data of archeology. A fake only in someone’s head
                  1. Lannan Shi
                    Lannan Shi 17 June 2020 12: 20
                    -3
                    Quote: Engineer
                    Then nomads do not exist by definition.

                    Why so? There are very many. But if there are dozens of cities in the country, crafts are developed, agriculture is quite present, then what kind of nomads are they? In this situation, nomads are only suppliers of cannon fodder. You will not argue that the Russian Empire was nomadic, only on the basis that in the Napoleonic wars, the Bashkirs, Tatars and other tens of thousands drove to the war?
                    Quote: Engineer
                    Do you generally understand the difference between the livestock breeding of the Polovtsy and ancient Turks and the year-round Mongols?

                    I understand perfectly. As well as the fact that the first and second could well afford to collect the army. But the third is not.
                    Quote: Engineer
                    You evade the direct question of 30 thousand Crimean Tatars on horses did not burn Moscow?

                    Very burned. Just read the description of the Battle of Molody. What did the Russians capture there? Praaaavilno. Carts. Ordinary horse army, with an admixture of foot .. Normal state.
                    By the way. Despite the quite obvious presence of convoys among the Tatars, they preferred to go on raids in the spring and autumn. Winter is more likely an exception. than the rule.
                    In general, the definition of a nomadic state or not, according to the type of troops, well, sooo funny.
                    Let’s say, near Kalnik, the Polish cavalry defeated the Tatar-Cossack horse - foot army. Conclusion. The Poles were nomads, the Tatars were farmers. Everything is strictly according to your logic. Yeah.
                    Quote: Engineer
                    A person writes that written sources should be treated with caution.

                    He writes in plain text that over the past thousand years, Chinese history has been written from scratch 4 times. Would you like to seek the truth? In this collection of fables? Good luck. And from the point of view of logic, the very existence of China must be proved strictly through European sources. For what was there in the Chinese annals of the year 500 AD, after they were burned 5 times and written again ...
                    1. Usher
                      Usher 17 June 2020 20: 11
                      +1
                      You have a broken head, you about Thomas, you about Yarema. How about peas on a wall.
        2. Nikolay Lazarev
          Nikolay Lazarev 17 July 2020 18: 34
          0
          I give you a standing ovation. Logic and critical thinking at a very high level.
    4. itis
      itis 16 June 2020 21: 48
      +1
      yes, it scared those rookers. dust first appeared on the horizon, then stench and then the noise of the movement of an entire nation. their darkness and darkness
    5. bk0010
      bk0010 16 June 2020 21: 52
      +3
      They fought in Russia in the winter. In winter, intestinal infection is less active.
    6. Podvodnik
      Podvodnik 16 June 2020 22: 07
      +3
      How did these terminators travel?


      It turns out that by air. From their homeland to us is not one thousand km. And all this time it is necessary to feed people and horses. And the terrain is impassable, uninhabited. Wizards.
    7. Nikolay Lazarev
      Nikolay Lazarev 17 July 2020 17: 52
      +1
      Nice to read the post of a reasonable person
  4. polpot
    polpot 16 June 2020 19: 06
    -8
    Dear author, do not consider it work, please attach a map in Russian to the article, many on this site cannot read the Ukrainian language.
    1. arturpraetor
      16 June 2020 19: 11
      +7
      Actually, the map is in Belarusian. And I can’t edit the material after undergoing moderation. If desired, information from the card is easily read.
      1. Red Dragon
        Red Dragon 16 June 2020 19: 42
        +2
        Dear author. In your opinion, did Daniel have a chance against the Mongols, taking into account a possible alliance with the Hungarians in a battle in the open field, given the decline in the number of Tatar-Mongols in comparison with the invasion of 37-38? It’s clear that we are embarking on a shaky ground of probabilities, however, as I know, you are fond of AI. wink
        1. arturpraetor
          16 June 2020 19: 45
          +4
          Quote: Red Dragon
          In your opinion, did Daniel have a chance against the Mongols, taking into account a possible alliance with the Hungarians in a battle in the open field, given the decline in the number of Tatar-Mongols in comparison with the invasion of 37-38?

          With the army that he created by the 1250s, he had. But the whole problem is precisely that he did not yet have such an army in 1241, and its creation was precisely the result of Batu’s invasion. And without that army, the chances are vanishingly small. Only do heavy damage. If you’re very lucky.
          1. Red Dragon
            Red Dragon 16 June 2020 20: 26
            +2
            Thanks for the reply. wink And another question to the respected author. How do you assess the role of governor Dmitry in the Mongol campaign?
            1. arturpraetor
              16 June 2020 20: 36
              +7
              Quote: Red Dragon
              How do you assess the role of governor Dmitry in the Mongol campaign?

              It's hard to say. Most likely, he played the role of some kind of honorary prisoner, and, whenever possible, tried to minimize the damage from the Mongols, constantly telling Batu that it was better for him to go further, otherwise "this land is strong, you will lose many people." But in general, everything connected with Dmitry after the capture of Kiev is rather a pitchfork on the water.
          2. itis
            itis 16 June 2020 21: 54
            0
            Daniil Galitsky went to the Horde for nishtyaks. as the chronicler said about this excursion - "Tatar honor is worse than death"
      2. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 16 June 2020 19: 47
        +4
        Clearly, the author of the previous post, never read "blind" Maps
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 16 June 2020 21: 29
          +5
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          the author of the previous post, never read "blind" Maps

          Perhaps he didn’t read anything at all, except what he wrote. fool
          It says in Russian:
          Map illustrating the reign of Daniil Galitsky (Belarusian language)
  5. Korsar4
    Korsar4 16 June 2020 19: 13
    +4
    Most of all hurt the possible thought of a personal ceasefire for the prince on the assumption of the looting of the principality.
    1. arturpraetor
      16 June 2020 19: 36
      +8
      There is one, but this version remains unconfirmed. That is, it could have been calm - and it might not have been. And against this version at least the fact that the troops of Daniil Galitsky did defend Kiev at least. If there was an agreement, the defense of Kiev would lose all meaning.
  6. Doccor18
    Doccor18 16 June 2020 19: 23
    +6
    Thanks to the author. Very interesting article.
  7. Edward Vashchenko
    Edward Vashchenko 16 June 2020 19: 28
    +5
    Even the author of this article was tired of describing all these relatively minor conflicts with a constant change in the layout of the unions with an almost unchanged composition of the main characters.

    Great passage! What's true is true
  8. Edward Vashchenko
    Edward Vashchenko 16 June 2020 19: 37
    +5
    Thank you!
  9. Esoteric
    Esoteric 16 June 2020 19: 49
    +1
    Not about the Mongols. Question to respected historians - where is Princess Olga (Helga) buried. Answer please.
    1. itis
      itis 16 June 2020 22: 05
      +1
      Chernihivites (not Chernigovites, as our mothers jokingly call us) say that in Chernihiv, on Boldinaya Gora (Ilya Muromets is there too), this is not a joke
  10. Esoteric
    Esoteric 16 June 2020 20: 08
    +1
    I really like those ancient Mongols. Well, this is necessary, they roamed for themselves, grazed there different animals, and then once, and alal came into my head - and not whether we should conquer the whole world, to the last sea. What? It's a good thing. Well, it is necessary, it is necessary, you cannot contradict the khan, he will take off his head. We decided to bend China to warm up. They took the yurt, they took the sabers from something incomprehensibly made, (where are the deposits of iron ore in Mongolia, so that the savages who cannot add "two to two" would smelt it? The most ancient, as we are assured of the state, where gunpowder, and podizh you, rockets, scientists are different, in general, a developed civilization.
    And then, they decided to build a fleet, and to sail to the shores of Japan. Well, then, since we are not savages — nomads? They are the most. What does it cost us to build a fleet.
    And afterwards, "along the tundra, along the broad road" to conquer the world. Thousands of kilometers, that's right, such nonsense. There is no need to drink, Khan ordered, until the last sea, which means "until the last sea." Otherwise, "ax boss".
    They ride they ride themselves, on horseback and do not blow a mustache. The truth stretched for d .. ten kilometers, the front horses were devoured, but the rest didn’t need it, Khan helps them. And the same Khan gives wars the same, every day. Khan fellow, feeds such a horde. Where does the truth come from, well, here it is necessary for historians to ask, they have not mastered the economy, everything is done for them by magic. Once - and here’s your XNUMXth army. Two - and these one hundred thousand are perfectly armed and fed. And where did the funds come from - Khan commanded. And that’s all. Can not argue with that. What a fellow Khan he is, right to Houdini.
    1. novel66
      novel66 16 June 2020 21: 56
      +1
      a wonderful example of thinking ... but you, my colleague, will always be in the red with this - the Mongol invasion is too driven by school education ... the nomads themselves
      1. Nikolay Lazarev
        Nikolay Lazarev 17 July 2020 19: 09
        +1
        From the identity. Developed developed, the best bows in the world created RANGE))) And from a modern Mongolian bow you can only injure a sparrow.
  11. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 16 June 2020 20: 11
    +5
    Thank you Artem !!! Another breath of air amid frenzied harassment.
  12. Operator
    Operator 16 June 2020 20: 53
    -7
    From each historical map of the suburbs and Litvinians their inferiority complexes are drawn - if a small-town prince during the feudal fragmentation of Russia for one day added a neighboring principality to himself, then this is immediately reflected on the map of the Great and Terrible Outskirts / Litvinia (and with a choke on chronology - some neighboring principalities managed to get out of the state sucked from the finger when it was able to attach others for a moment).

    In any case, the Galician, Volyn, Mensky and other feudal formations sunk into oblivion almost immediately after birth, when the Mongolian, and then the Lithuanian and Polish skating rinks traveled through them. The reason was simple as a nail - the absolute unwillingness of local princes to fulfill their social role - to protect the population of the principalities. The princes at the first danger, like cockroaches scattered through the cracks, lost their authority and were easily replaced by the Grand Duke of Lithuania or the Polish king.

    PS In Latin, the word rex means a tribal leader, in the conditions of Russia - a complete analogue of the word "prince". Therefore, the Ukrainians need to roll their lips back - the assignment of the title of rex to the Galician prince was by the Pope only a razvodilov laughing
    1. arturpraetor
      16 June 2020 21: 07
      +7
      Quote: Operator
      In any case, the Galician, Volyn, Mensky and other feudal formations sunk into oblivion almost immediately after birth, when the Mongolian, and then the Lithuanian and Polish skating rinks traveled through them. The reason was simple as a nail - the absolute unwillingness of local princes to fulfill their social role - to protect the population of the principalities.

      Quote: Operator
      In Latin, the word rex means a tribal leader, in the conditions of Russia - a complete analogue of the word "prince". Therefore, the Ukrainians need to roll their lips back - the assignment of the title of rex to the Galician prince was by the Pope only a razvodilov

      No, with such knowledge and statements you obviously go to the same place where Lannan Shi, i.e. to ignore. Because trying to explain something to a rascal is useless, and I began to value my time too much.
      1. Operator
        Operator 16 June 2020 21: 46
        -2
        Relax - my post was not intended for compilers.
        1. arturpraetor
          16 June 2020 21: 49
          +5
          I did not immediately consider your nickname when I wrote the answer. So I apologize for disturbing you. You are here the honorary first who deserved ignorance long before this article. hi
          1. Operator
            Operator 16 June 2020 21: 57
            -5
            In connection with your neophyte on the VO website, you can’t even imagine what ignore was a year ago - you select a participant, click on it with the cursor and voila - you do not see your comments.

            In vain the administration canceled this function - I was its biggest admirer, all Russophobes, graphomaniacs, compilers, fans of the word "delirium", etc. were sitting in my ignorance. etc. It was a great time, however.
  13. Esoteric
    Esoteric 16 June 2020 20: 56
    -1
    I have a hike, pardon the word, cognitive dissonance. It's cold in winter. It was very cold in those days. Where and how did the Mongols warm themselves? Or did they not need it, are they terminators? Day after day, in a terrible frost, how did they, excuse the vulgarism, “didn’t throw back their hooves”? These are the thousands. And even apparently did not get sick, and did not get frostbitten. Looks like the Chinese doctors helped. Oh my God. Dress now, in modern clothes, with its thermal underwear, shoes created with modern materials, and go on a journey through the forest in thirty degrees of frost. Yes "give oak" in a couple of days. And the Mongols are nothing, hardened. Well, heresy.
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 17 June 2020 09: 17
      -1
      Quote: Ezoterik
      Where and how the Mongols warmed themselves

      OI will easily answer this for you. In yurts.
      But here too there are questions that arise in this version of the story. The fact is that Yurts are not only felt wagons, but administrative districts of the Cossack people, Cossack yurts that existed, say, in the Wild Field.
  14. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 16 June 2020 21: 26
    +9
    When I finished reading the article, before reading the comments I crossed myself in my mind: just not about the Mongols! I don’t want to talk about the "Mongols who were not there"!
    Those who doubt the existence of the Mongol empire and its conquests on the basis of the fact that in our time it smells bad from the Mongols, and Napoleon has died all the horses, I can say one thing with full responsibility.
    You guys have two options to resolve your doubts.
    The first is to study some good scientific monographs devoted to the Mongols, in which there are links to scientific literature, photographs of archaeological finds, quotes from ancient chronicles, etc. To go to museums, see exhibits, read the source, in translations, of course.
    The second is to further limit oneself to reading a few pseudoscientific articles "from the Internet", the minimum amount of knowledge from the school curriculum and one's own "common sense". "Sane" in quotation marks, because really, really common sense would suggest to go according to the first option.
    I'm tired of describing to every illiterate "skeptic" how and what.
    I will exclusively mock and troll in the mood.
    1. arturpraetor
      16 June 2020 21: 46
      +6
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      When I finished reading the article, before reading the comments I crossed myself in my mind: just not about the Mongols! I don’t want to talk about the "Mongols who were not there"!

      I wrote this article with the same feeling laughing But after the GVKS cycle I will have one or more articles dedicated specifically to how nomads and their states "work" - that's where the holivar will be ...
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Those who doubt the existence of the Mongol empire and its conquests on the basis that in our time it smells bad from the Mongols, and Napoleon has died all horses, I can say one thing with full responsibility

      In this case, I only have a question for doubters who are absolutely sure that they are right - are you standing there with a candle? wassat Because it is necessary either to be a witness yourself, or to have an alternative mindset, to pull modern well-known realities onto the events of centuries ago. And in this case, "alternative" is not good.
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      The first is to study some good scientific monographs devoted to the Mongols, in which there are links to scientific literature, photographs of archaeological finds, quotes from ancient chronicles, etc. To go to museums, see exhibits, read the source, in translations, of course.

      What is funny - I came to the realization of this topic in fact without deep research. Because it’s enough to be interested in social politics and social economics, and for some time consider in principle how nomads work in the Middle Ages, so that it becomes clear how the Mongol Empire could really work and succeed. And only then, looking into a serious reading on a specific Mongol topic, I found that serious researchers were talking about this.

      True, here we must try to cast aside stereotypes about the steppes in general and the Mongols in particular, otherwise it may turn out that in the XNUMXth century reptilians actually invaded the Earth.
      1. Esoteric
        Esoteric 16 June 2020 22: 11
        -1
        A supporter of the theory that the conquest of Russia was not by the Mongols, but by the Turks who came from not far from the banks of the Volga. I do not deny that the conquest was, and it was cruel, in the end I am from Ryazan, but this is not the city, from that there is nothing left of the city. He died, but did not give up. But I can’t believe in the Mongols, maybe he’s wrong. Oh he is this common sense wink
        1. arturpraetor
          16 June 2020 22: 30
          +5
          IMHO, your mistake is that you, like many others, generalize and simplify. Because here I am, having studied this "difficult" issue, I understand perfectly well that the Mongols in this whole movement were only initiators, leaders and part of the general process. And in the process they managed to subdue and absorb a great number of steppe tribes, including the Turkic ones. But the fact that even most of the horde of Batu Khan could have consisted of the Turks does not mean that the horde from this ceased to be a part of the Mongol Empire. This means the Mongols. It's like with the same Great Britain - we are talking British and British, although in fact there may also be Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish.
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 17 June 2020 09: 30
            -1
            Quote: arturpraetor
            your mistake is that you, like many others, generalize and simplify.

            this is not so. To generalize and simplify is precisely the scientific approach, in comparison with splitting into components and complicating, because the Big is seen from a distance.
            To crush one nation into a bunch of different nations and to push it on a time scale is not scientific, it is not logical to criminalize science.
            In the past, there could not be too many peoples, there should be very few peoples, maybe only a few and at the same time their languages. This is already a consequence and not in a natural way, as we see in the example of Ukraine / Bandera, they were Russian, they did not Russian, there are many different peoples who come up with a story and invent languages ​​and culture.
            Therefore, from the beginning it was precisely two or three peoples from which the other nations were later formed. Such an approach in science is true.
            1. arturpraetor
              17 June 2020 15: 47
              +1
              Quote: Bar1
              Therefore, from the beginning it was precisely two or three peoples from which the other nations were later formed. Such an approach in science is true.

              This approach, as I recall, is unscientific smile However, according to your statements that the Hunnic empire is entirely Slavic, I already understood what is scientific for you and what is not.
              1. Bar1
                Bar1 17 June 2020 16: 21
                -2
                Quote: arturpraetor
                This approach, as I recall, is unscientific

                you do not know science well.
                Unification and simplification is what the great Mendeleev used when he created his periodic law. From the mass of heterogeneous facts about the properties of elements, he created UNITING them into one general law.

                But the fragmentation of, say, matter into atoms, then into electrons / protons, then into quarks has led physics to a standstill. These models do not answer the questions that arise.
                1. arturpraetor
                  17 June 2020 16: 28
                  +2
                  Quote: Bar1
                  Consolidation and simplification

                  Unification and simplification makes sense when there are specific grounds for this, there are similar features, patterns. If the basis is "let's simplify this", it turns out folk history - maybe simple and understandable, but fundamentally wrong. I have never seen a simplified version of history that at least correctly represented possible hypotheses about the topic under consideration. Especially when the topic is very large-scale, it can be compressed into a school curriculum (that is, a couple of paragraphs), but the reader only learns that "then somewhere there was something somewhere."

                  In short, history does not like simplifications. And if so, then you and I have nothing to talk about, for we adhere to diametrically opposite points of view.
                  Quote: Bar1
                  And the fragmentation of, say, matter into atoms, then into electron / protons, then into quarks, has led physics to a standstill. These models do not answer the questions that arise.

                  Well, right! To hell physics development laughing
                  1. Bar1
                    Bar1 17 June 2020 16: 51
                    -3
                    Quote: arturpraetor
                    If the basis is "let's simplify it", it turns out folk history - maybe simple and understandable, but fundamentally wrong.

                    Well, besides blah, blah, it’s better to go to specific facts.
                    For example, Doctor of History Pyzhikov, as soon as he departed from the study of history, as the history of wars and the history of dynasties, and began to study the history of the people, it turned out that the history of our Russian people set forth in epics is fundamentally contrary to official history, for example, such a fact in epics says NOTHING about the Baptism of Russia.
                    Folk rites of tradition are contrary to Christian and church culture, and this continued until the 20th century, before the revolution, Academician Pyzhikov said.
                    Starting from Alexei Mikhailovich, the people in the person of Razin, archers, Pugachev, Cossacks fought for their originality and culture, and it was from the 17th to the 20th century a HUGE war about which no one from the UI speaks to us.
                    That's how your arrogant "folk history" suddenly turned into antagonism with your science, but our side has arrived.
          2. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 17 June 2020 10: 13
            +3
            Artem, welcome. smile
            With all these "Mongol battles", which bothered me worse than a bitter radish, there was no time to discuss the article itself and its content.
            But there was one very interesting and, probably, even a unique moment, completely unusual for the princely strife.
            After in 1236 the joint campaign of Kiev (Izyaslav Mstislavich), Chernigov, Galich, Poles (Konrad Mazovetsky) and Polovtsy against Volhynia was thwarted (most likely, this is the merit of Vladimir Rurikovich, who "recruited" the Polovtsians and returned to himself in the same the Kiev table, and not Daniel himself), a mutual zugzwang began in the strife. The Poles and Hungarians took a neutral position, and the rest of the participants in the conflict no longer had the strength to continue it, although the current situation did not suit one of the coalitions (Chernigov-Galich and Kiev-Volyn).
            Personally, I was amazed to the extreme by the move that Daniel and Vladimir resorted to in this situation. Voluntarily cede my princely table to a completely foreign prince, from another land, from a different kind, I mean the arrival of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich to Kiev - this had to not only be thought out, but also had the courage to carry out. Apparently, the situation between Daniel and Vladimir was really desperate.
            To what extent the warring parties were exhausted, shows that Yaroslav with a small retinue and a hundred Novgorodians went through the whole Chernigov land, robbing the city and no one could oppose him.
            It’s interesting how Vladimir Rurikovich felt. His biography in the light of relations with Yaroslav and Daniel is generally quite remarkable.
            In 1204, he, instead of with his father, Roman Galitsky and fourteen-year-old Yaroslav, participated in the campaign against the Polovtsy. He witnessed the court and the violent tonsure of his father, lived for some time as a hostage in Galich, reigned with his father in Chernigov, where he left after his death, took an active part in the battle on Lipitsa on the side of his cousin Mstislav Udatny against Yaroslav and Yuri Vsevolodovich, in the Kiev campaign princes of Smolensk, when Mstislav Udatny defeated Vsevolod Chermny, father of Mikhail Chernigov and expelled him from Kiev, after helping Mstislav to establish himself in Galich, was on Kalka, became the Prince of Kiev, fought against Daniel along with Michael, besieging Kamenetz, then together with Daniel against Mikhail , besieging Chernihiv, survived the defeat at Torsky in 1235 from the Polovtsy, was held captive, redeemed, regained Kiev ... to voluntarily cede it to Yaroslav.
            Here, probably, about whom it would be worth writing an article.
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 June 2020 06: 15
        +4
        Thank you Artyom for continuing the cycle!
        I sat down with a fool for a feed calculator. Got crazy numbers from a village of 200 conditional souls! And it is at the beginning of winter !!!
        Good day!
      3. Tamparu
        Tamparu 17 June 2020 19: 47
        0
        I just have a question in this case for the doubters, who are absolutely sure that they are right - were you standing there with a candle? wassat Because it is necessary either to be a witness yourself, or to have an alternative mindset, as to pull modern well-known realities onto the events of centuries ago. And in this case, "alternative" is not good.

        Good evening, dear!
        I have a counter question for you. Are you sure that the "primary sources" to which you refer were also holding a candle at the time of the events they described?
        Sincerely, hi
        1. arturpraetor
          17 June 2020 21: 04
          +1
          Quote: TampaRU
          I have a counter question for you. Are you sure that the "primary sources" to which you refer were also holding a candle at the time of the events they described?

          Of course not. Otherwise, how many Batu Khan there would be an army according to the annals, a million, or is it still a bit smaller? But one thing is to skeptically examine the sources, cross-analyze them, and try to determine how it could be. And it’s quite another thing - to discard completely and completely all sources simply because someone doesn’t fit in the head the materiel along the steppes. The first is research. The second is a crude IMHA and is already a matter of faith. And it is better not to argue with believers, for it is useless request
          1. Tamparu
            Tamparu 18 June 2020 15: 45
            0
            arturpraetor (Artem) Yesterday, 21:04 PM NEW
            +1
            Quote: TampaRU
            I have a counter question for you. Are you sure that the "primary sources" to which you refer were also holding a candle at the time of the events they described?

            Of course not. Otherwise, how many Batu Khan there would be an army according to the annals, a million, or is it still a bit smaller? But one thing is to skeptically examine the sources, cross-analyze them, and try to determine how it could be. And it’s quite another thing - to discard completely and completely all sources simply because someone doesn’t fit in their heads the materiel along the steppes. The first is research. The second is a crude IMHA and is already a matter of faith. And it’s better not to argue with believers, for request is useless

            Here it is the seed of truth that you voiced !!!!
            CROSS ANALYSIS !!!!!!
            Only this analysis needs to be done not only in the plane of history! Here it is necessary to take into account the geological aspect, aspects of the possible / impossible impact of the climate (what was the climate like at that time in this territory, you know?), Geophysical aspects, technological aspects and so on ... And only then, with caution, that- then argue !!!!
            Sincerely, hi
            1. arturpraetor
              18 June 2020 16: 17
              0
              Quote: TampaRU
              Only this analysis needs to be done not only in the plane of history! Here it is necessary to take into account the geological aspect, aspects of the possible / impossible impact of the climate (what was the climate like at that time in this territory, you know?), Geophysical aspects, technological aspects and so on ... And only then, with caution, that- then argue !!!!

              The trouble is, critics of some "official history" don't bother with such things. More precisely, they only need them to substantiate their point of view, and therefore physics, geography and so on are altered the way they want. Here somewhere in the comments to a person who is familiar with the nomadic economy from personal experience, they try to rub in what he can and cannot, sitting on the couch request What can we talk about here?

              I can guess where you are pushing me, but no, I will never be a supporter of the new-timers, conspirators, and other alternatively gifted personalities, because I value common sense too. However, these very supporters, most likely, themselves believe that they are the ideal of sanity, knowledge, logic and analysis. The problem is that, for example, I admit that some points can be controversial, and they sacredly believe in their rightness. The truth is that it is unrealistic to double-check in our time. That is, the very question of faith.

              I will not develop the topic further, because there is no desire and time, and the editor hangs on the number of comments under the article, it is inconvenient to print anything.
      4. Nikolay Lazarev
        Nikolay Lazarev 18 July 2020 00: 03
        0
        Artem, we do not know what happened 30 years ago, and you, confidently not accepting objections, describe in detail the events of 800 years ago. I have already written to your colleague on the understanding of this problem. Such an act as the CONQUEST OF THE WORLD requires many thousands of elements of its components, without which it is doomed to FAILURE. And here the fairy tales of "contemporaries", fragments of arrows, spearheads, broken skulls, monographs of great authorities, do not clarify, but rather confuse the picture of those days bygone. And the arguments of the girl, with whom you fundamentally disagree, look much more plausible and logical than all these monographs by distinguished historians.
        1. How did Temuchin manage to collect at least 2000 warriors for his initial raids? Big steppe,
        between individual nomadic clans two or three days of travel. There are about 100 people in a separate nomad, including women, children and old people. They do not sit still, they wander behind their herds. How many personal people does Temuchin need to scatter across the steppe and gather a gang of at least 2000 souls? What arguments should the messenger present in order for the clan to give the most powerful men for Temuchin, and not send this messenger to hell, or at worst just not strangle?
        2. It is unlikely that Temuchin's pasture was much more populous than the rest of the clan. Well, okay managed to collect. They did not all arrive at the leader's BET at the same time. Let it take a couple of months from the first to arrive. Did Temuchin feed these swallows these two months from his own reserves? And armed with what? Or did everyone come with their own? With a digging stick and a children's bow with arrowheads sharpened and burnt in a fire? And this is only one hundred thousandth of the problems. Only a DEVELOPED STATE can afford to arm, train and maintain an army. The invasion army needs professional soldiers. This is for protection, they become in service both small and old. And they don’t go to the seizure of other countries.
    2. Esoteric
      Esoteric 16 June 2020 21: 51
      -1
      Well, about science .. Once the French Academy of Sciences denied the existence of meteorites. Was it? It was. Nobody knew that beyond the atmosphere there is a cosmos where they fly. Just a textbook example. Skeptical of science is necessary. I know that I know nothing.
    3. Vlad world
      Vlad world 17 June 2020 08: 48
      -1
      Ay fans mz, answer how the Hungarians and Russian clergy found themselves in the headquarters of the emperor of the Tatars in 1216. What force made them help the future conquerors of them. How did they know that they should go there. They got a call on their cell phone or whatever.
      This is written by Carpini on the basis of a report of which all scientific monographs are worth. And the books are written by "historians" including Gorsky. Doctor of Historical Sciences A could not answer the question. I'm here for the second time asking the "experts" can still answer. And then they write any nonsense and justify so only "snot".
      Well, when the "historians" cannot answer and their harmonious delirium falls apart, then they switch to their cheating and trolling. For nothing else can.
      1 State language and documentary circulation on it. The Roman Empire was much earlier, and the documents seem to be preserved. And here, it seems, the empire arose much later, and the documentation of bye bye. About a little time is not necessary.
      2 Supply of horses with forage. Logistics Tales about pasture is not necessary. For horses like the Romans, they received 6 liters of grain every day in addition to roughage - hay, grazing.
      In the real conqueror of Napoleon, horses in the summer died of a nest.
      3 Number of blacksmiths in the army for the regular forging of horses. Where did the charcoal and its value come from? Whereas the nomads mainly consume Kizyak (I hope you know what it is)
      For information - one of Napoleon’s assistants hid a bag of charcoal so as not to rush around and look for him, for forging horses. And he noted this fact in his memoirs.
      4 Where did they get the iron, even for horseshoes. There are no iron ore deposits in Mongolia for that level of development. China does not offer.
      Enough for now.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 17 June 2020 09: 15
        +2
        Quote: Vlad-world
        Ay fans mz answer

        Quote: Trilobite Master
        I'm tired of describing to every illiterate "skeptic" how and what.

        Quote: Trilobite Master
        You have two options for resolving your doubts.

        Regarding the "clerics" of Karpini, there was recently my article on Mongolian intelligence. There it is.
        As for the language and documents - they are full, you just need to ask.
        I have already answered a hundred times about the supply. Briefly - due to the winter reserves of the looted country. Calculate how much fodder was stored in each yard to feed livestock.
        About Napoleon - find at least one similarity between Batu and Napoleon to compare.
        Concerning the craft and metallurgy of the Mongols, there are numerous studies based on archeology with documented finds. Take an interest.
        Comprehensive answers have long been given to all your questions, but not you, not your different Kungurovs and others, did not even bother to try to find them out.
        It is strange that you have not yet asked about genetics, they say, where is the Mongolian genetic trace. The answer is there, study literature, I’m not going to repeat the same thing for the hundredth time.
        1. Vlad world
          Vlad world 17 June 2020 09: 35
          -2
          Where are the answers then.
          What is the official language in the empire of the Mongols --- Uyghur or something. Or Mongolian. Or do not know.
          And yes, where is the Mongolian genetic trace. Or they were all Blue were on conquered territories.
          You really try to answer ali so hard. Your answers are long and not the case.
          Short answers - language ..........
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 17 June 2020 10: 33
            +2
            Quote: Vlad-world
            Where are the answers then.

            Stop being rude. I do not owe you anything. Instead of thanking science for something else, you demand something here.
            Last time.
            The official language is Mongolian. The Uyghur or Chinese script.
            Quote: Vlad-world
            where is the mongolian genetic trace.

            Quote: Trilobite Master
            The answer is there, study literature, I’m not going to repeat the same thing for the hundredth time.

            Quote: Vlad-world
            You really try to answer ali so hard.

            It’s hard to repeat the same thing. You already try to find these answers in my previous comments. Over the past two years, I have already explained this three times to someone like you, and maybe I don’t remember you either. There was even an article about the Mongolian genetic trail - here on the site, and not even one. My comments are there.
            I have a question for you too. I don’t understand: you - "skeptics" - are really so lazy that you cannot look for answers to your questions or are really so stupid that you cannot understand them and demand (it is not known from what fright) that smarter people explain everything to you, chew and put it in your mouth?
            1. Vlad world
              Vlad world 17 June 2020 12: 38
              0
              finally
              So the language is Mongolian. And the writing is Uyghur or Chinese. Already better
              But here's the misfortune - in All Real Empires, the official language and writing was the same. English - English language and writing. Roman or Latin - Latin language and writing. French-French language and writing. Russian-Russian language and writing and so on. Nowhere did the people creating the Empire take the writing of the conquered peoples. And while the people did not create their own written language, they did not create the Empire. Think about it if you can. To help - at the historical troubles in the historical museum there was a lecture about empires. Good one. Listen and can help.
              2 And for that, there are Smart people to Explain and Chew. If they are really smart. And they do not personally appropriate this title.
              3 Well, you fans really believe in your Religion or whatever.
              4 I have been dealing with this issue for more than 10 years. Hunt more than captivity, you know.
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 17 June 2020 13: 09
                +5
                Quote: Vlad-world
                Actually existing empires, the official language and writing was one and the same.

                Nonsense. Think of the Macedonian Empire, the Frankish Empire, for example, or the Ottoman Empire, and think about it if you can. wink
                Quote: Vlad-world
                And for that, there are smart people that would explain and chew.

                Well, ask them about it without scolding and sarcasm. But at the same time, remember that these smart people are not obligated to you, including answering without fail. It is exclusively their goodwill. And in general, before bothering an intelligent person with his questions, it would be nice to try to figure it out on your own. And if you received as an answer a list of literature in which these answers are stated to say thank you and politely say goodbye.
                Quote: Vlad-world
                I have been dealing with this issue for more than 10 years.

                I don’t understand what you mean. Pseudo-history? Petukhov, Fomenko and Kungurov?
                Well, here you go, try it out:
                http://gumilevica.kulichki.net/HD/index.html
                https://ekniga.org/reader/222878/
                https://www.bookol.ru/starinnoe/mifyi_legendyi_epos/65782/fulltext.htm
                If after reading some questions remain - you are welcome, we will discuss.
                1. Tamparu
                  Tamparu 17 June 2020 20: 02
                  -2
                  But at the same time, remember that these smart people are not obligated to you, including answering without fail. It is exclusively their goodwill. And in general, before bothering an intelligent person with his questions, it would be nice to try to figure it out on your own. And if you received as an answer a list of literature in which these answers are set out to say thank you and politely say goodbye.

                  Good evening, dear ...
                  Do you really consider yourself smart after not the first such comment?
                  Sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you, read what you write ...
                  Unfortunately, I doubted your wisdom and, especially, your knowledge ..
                  Yours faithfully, hi
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 17 June 2020 20: 38
                    +2
                    Quote: TampaRU
                    Do you really consider yourself smart after not the first such comment?

                    In this case, I did not mean specifically myself, so I used the plural in the commentary. Although partly of myself too. In the part that I am not obliged to answer, especially if the questions are formulated in this way, this was done by my interlocutor.
                    Well, as for your doubts - for God's sake. Some here generally consider me a Tatar-British historian, to each his own. You won’t please everyone. hi
                2. Vlad world
                  Vlad world 17 June 2020 21: 48
                  -3
                  Indeed, the Macedonian empire. Frankish empire - or maybe a kingdom.
                  The Ottoman Empire is that. Under this business, you can stick everything.
                  2 Petukhov is a completely normal historian. Poor Fomenko - for example, as a good idea that in our usual calculation of crap 300-500 years you can bring to idiocy. And the good thing is to put the stigma. In the case of uncomfortable questions, that have broken habitual fantasies. Like for example ms or the introduction of statehood into Russia by the Normans.
                  3 I try to read Sources. You know what that is.
                  In the annals there are no Mongols. Karpini has moguls. You know the Mughals, they are not Mongols. In India, like the ruling Mughal dynasty was, if you do not know. And certainly not the Mongols.
                  In the Arabian sources, again, the Tatars. Chinese nonsense please do not specify.
                  The message of the pope who carried Karpini was translated into Russian, Arabic and Tatar.
                  Where is your Mongolian Uyghur and Chinese
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 18 June 2020 11: 23
                    +2
                    Let me find out why you did not like the examples of empires that I have cited. The empire of Alexander the Great, in which they wrote in Greek or Persian letters, the empire of Charlemagne, where they wrote in Latin or the Ottoman Empire, which took the Arabic script. They did not have their own, like the Mongols. So - are they on this basis not an empire? laughing
                    Petukhov is not a historian. He is a science fiction writer. Why are some people so fond of elevating clowns to the rank of scientists? I don’t even understand why some people consider Fomenko, Klesov, Chudinov to be historians, but they have or had at least some relation to science, although the nonsense that they broadcast on air does not become any less nonsense.
                    But Petukhov, Zadornov, who else, Bushkov, in my opinion expressed something on this subject - how they can be taken seriously, I don’t understand. Well, it’s your business. Believe Petukhov - fly on vimanas, just be careful, you can fly to prison. For extremism.
                    To read the sources you need to be able to do this. It is not easy to read an ancient document and correctly understand its contents. There is a special historical discipline - source study. I recommend that you familiarize yourself with several source studies, a lot will change in your eyes.
                    Carpini ... Did you actually read it? At least the title of his work? By the way, it is called "History of the Mongols, which we call Tatars", in Latin - "Historia Mongalorum quos nos Tartaros appellamus" and in his text it is "Mongols", not "Mughals" everywhere. Of course, I know about the Great Mughals. They have nothing with the Mongols, except for the phonetic similarity of the name of the dynasty with the name of the people.
                    As for the "Chinese delirium" - these sources pass all the necessary checks, both in terms of dating by physical methods and linguistic ones, in terms of content they fight well with Arab and European, including Russian, chronicles and chronicles, so why not believe them? There are much more reasons for this, in any case, than for belief in the same Petukhov.
                    Regarding translations of the pope’s messages ... In my article on Mongolian intelligence, this is also. How they tried to translate the message of Batu to the Hungarian king Belé.
                    And here is the surviving letter of the Mongolian ilkhan to the French king.

                    Ask who Buscarlo Gisolfi is, for the sake of interest, you will learn a lot of new things. Including "where is Mongolian, Uyghur and Chinese".
                    You can also, just to make it fun, google the query "old Mongolian writing".
                    And anyway, if you don’t know something, then:
                    a) this does not mean that it does not exist
                    b) this does not mean that knowledge gaps can be replaced with fantasies, anyway with your own or others
                    And the last thing: it's never too late to learn.
                    Good luck. hi
                    1. Vlad world
                      Vlad world 18 June 2020 11: 55
                      -2
                      Oh well. And Macedonian from where by chance you don’t remember - like from the Greek peninsula. And there Greek was in use.
                      And the territory of Charles is not a fragment of the former Roman Empire that he grabbed for himself.
                      But didn’t the Arabs, with their written language and religion, begin an exposition to the north. And they did not establish the Dominance of their Religion and Written language throughout the captured territory. When they (the Arabs) began, the Ottomans did not yet exist as a name.
                      Yes, only the tops were seized without roots.
                      And what year of release did you read Carpini. And then over time they are so interestingly reduced. And then I read All available in Lenin and more than once.
                      Why are you faking the century so 18-19 palm off. You would have slipped a portrait of Genghis Khan of the 15th century from Persia. That was a laugh.
                      1. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 18 June 2020 12: 50
                        +2
                        Macedonians and Greeks are different nations. Just like the Franks (Germans) and the Romans. Just like Turks and Arabs. When the former captured the territory of the latter, they adopted their writing, adapting to their language. As well as the Mongols. And the borrowed writing did not prevent them from creating an empire.
                        Quote: Vlad-world
                        I read All available in Lenin and more than once.

                        Well, what have you read? About the Mughals? Come on, do not hesitate to tell us. Don't trust translations - let's look at the original text - has it also changed over time? The word "mongol" can be read in Latin as well.
                        Quote: Vlad-world
                        fake century so palm off 18-19

                        Prove that fake. You make such a statement solely on the basis that this document (as well as many others) is like a sickle to you. laughing Who investigated it? What methods? What are the results? But they investigated, and there are research results, you can familiarize yourself. Enough courage? Can you handle it yourself or again you need to shift the chewed from mouth to mouth? laughing
                      2. Vlad world
                        Vlad world 18 June 2020 13: 23
                        -2
                        Oh well. Different peoples living in one fairly small territory. This is how the Serbs and Croats are different nations.
                        Well, the tops are the tops. You really ask who the teacher was with Alexander. And in what language did the training take place.
                        During the beginning of the expansion of the Arabs, the Turks as a name did not exist.
                        They took Religion and the Writing on which this Religion spread. Is it really so hard to think of that.
                        And I do not need to explore, the Chinese counterfeit, it was recognized as a phenomenon already in the middle of the 17th century.
                        The source of the 13th century says - Russian, Arabic and Tatar. All of the later attempts to introduce other languages ​​are attempts to snot glue the crumbling fantasies of religion fans about ms.
                        By the way, the Tatars were from different nations. Even the tart Chinese were.
                      3. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 18 June 2020 14: 03
                        +2
                        You don't really need anything. After all, everything is simple for you - a minimum of knowledge about the era, a maximum of extrapolations with the present, absolute confidence in your own intellectual superiority over "historians" who, unlike you, do not understand the obvious things ... Well, everything that disagrees with your opinion and serves as proof of the falsity of your beliefs - of course fake, how could it be otherwise? wassat
                        In the end ... What do you have in the end? There was no invasion at all? Or like, Russians and Russians fought a little and that? Or did Siberian Scythian-Russians lovingly spank their erring brothers for trying to leave the superethnos?
                        For God's sake, stay where you are, if you like there. Of course, in a cozy cesspool of your own wet and warm fantasies, it is more pleasant to be than in the ruthless drafts of historical facts. Why do you need new knowledge, why think something, if you are so well ...
                        I say goodbye to the sim. I won’t get any pleasure from our communication, so I’ll save my beads for another occasion. hi laughing
                      4. Vlad world
                        Vlad world 18 June 2020 14: 40
                        -1
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        You don't really need anything. After all, everything is simple for you - a minimum of knowledge about the era, a maximum of extrapolations with the present, absolute confidence in your own intellectual superiority over "historians" who, unlike you, do not understand the obvious things ... Well, everything that disagrees with your opinion and serves as proof of the falsity of your beliefs - of course fake, how could it be otherwise? wassat
                        In the end ... What do you have in the end? There was no invasion at all? Or like, Russians and Russians fought a little and that? Or did Siberian Scythian-Russians lovingly spank their erring brothers for trying to leave the superethnos?
                        For God's sake, stay where you are, if you like there. Of course, in a cozy cesspool of your own wet and warm fantasies, it is more pleasant to be than in the ruthless drafts of historical facts. Why do you need new knowledge, why think something, if you are so well ...
                        I say goodbye to the sim. I won’t get any pleasure from our communication, so I’ll save my beads for another occasion. hi laughing



                        Well, yes, of course, there is no knowledge of who the teacher was with Alexander, how and in what language the teaching was conducted. Such a trifle, after all. And ambition.
                        Yeah, what a pleasure to constantly sit in a puddle. I understand you.
  • Nikolay Lazarev
    Nikolay Lazarev 17 July 2020 19: 43
    +1
    /// Guys, you have two ways out to resolve your doubts.
    The first is to study several good scientific monographs on the Mongols, which contain references to scientific literature, photographs of archaeological finds, quotes from ancient chronicles, etc. Walk to museums, see exhibits, read primary sources, in translations, of course. ///
    Trouble Michael, trouble! In vain you offend the girl. She is just the same very intelligent, has critical thinking and developed logic. Now you have an excellent INTERNET tool in your hands. And instead of going to museums to stare at the exhibits, study primary sources, tales of contemporaries, etc., it is wiser to turn to common sense. Such a large-scale event as the CONQUEST OF THE WORLD consists of many thousands of elements, without which this act is doomed to FAILURE.
  • Esoteric
    Esoteric 16 June 2020 21: 40
    -2
    No, well, still about this very China. Well, explain to Noob (Noob, in the terminology of modern games, this is a person who has just entered the game, does not understand anything, but also does not make himself a know-it-all, capable, and wants to learn), if that, I don’t play, the years are not the same, well, except Total Var, there is sin wink So. Why did not such an ancient civilization enrich humanity with scientific discoveries? Well, no.
    Mendeleev, Newton, Popov, Lomonosov, Rutherford, Pasteur, Maxwell, Descartes, Cavendish, but they don’t have a number, I know, but I don’t know the Chinese. How can that be? Ancient civilization is the same.
    Moscow University, Oxford, the Sorbonne, but they don’t have a number - I know, but there’s no Chinese. What's the matter then? Where are the discoveries and inventions of the oldest civilization on our planet? Well, at least Watt's steam engine?
    1. arturpraetor
      16 June 2020 21: 53
      +8
      Quote: Ezoterik
      Why did not such an ancient civilization enrich humanity with scientific discoveries?

      This is the Chinese did not make a single scientific discovery? belay I’m embarrassed to ask - who invented the gunpowder then? And this is one single example.
      Quote: Ezoterik
      Moscow University, Oxford, the Sorbonne, but they don’t have a number - I know, but there’s no Chinese. What's the matter then?

      The fact is that you live in a European state and perceive everything from the point of view of Eurocentrism smile That’s why you know European universities in the first place - Chinese are simply not interesting to you, just like to our society in principle. Therefore, they are not spoken of as they are spoken from European. And the fact that the Chinese were among the first to create a monstrously developed bureaucratic apparatus, for which a well-developed education system is needed is generally trifles ....

      Plus, afterglow is triggered. We know that in recent centuries, China did not particularly represent anything, it is a fact. But many people automatically pull this knowledge over its entire history, and just the biggest ups of Chinese history were in the pre-Mongol era.
      1. Esoteric
        Esoteric 16 June 2020 22: 04
        -1
        I doubt about gunpowder. Here is Europe. Someone Bertold Schwartz, or whatever it is, mixes the ingredients in a mortar. Drops the pestle there, it flies out and breaks the ceiling. Eureka. The experiment is naturally repeated on a large scale. And the first guns repeat the outline of the mortar. But for the gun, this form is simply not needed, it is even directly contraindicated. It is clear why the first guns in Europe were like that. But the same is true in China. Someone is lying.
        1. arturpraetor
          16 June 2020 22: 11
          +6
          Quote: Ezoterik
          I doubt about gunpowder.

          On what basis? Because you think so? smile Sorry, I try to have no business with questions of personal faith. I prefer cold logic and evidence. Yes, and I do not possess national prejudices.
          1. Esoteric
            Esoteric 16 June 2020 22: 19
            -1
            So the same thing. It’s just that lately, about fifty years ago, China has been extolled. They are the most ancient, the most advanced state of antiquity, and so on. They all invented while they walked in the skins of animals. Have to doubt it.
            1. arturpraetor
              16 June 2020 22: 34
              +7
              Quote: Ezoterik
              It’s just that lately, about fifty years ago, China has been extolled.

              It’s just that China is once again on the rise, and is actively pushing its coolness with propaganda. This is normal. But this does not mean that China has always been cool. It doesn’t mean that he was never cool, because now propaganda was needed to strengthen his coolness. This is precisely why it was needed, that for a long time before that, China was in decline and did not represent anything, but now we must fight against the inertia of human perception.

              In short, it is impossible in history to transfer the present reality to the past, especially the distant one. Otherwise, you can even slip into chronology, and I don't even know what. Like "since the Greeks are not strong now, then there were no ancient Greeks either," "since the Italians are now so-so, then there was no Ancient Rome," and so on. Absolutely the same as refusing China for several thousand years in its heyday.
      2. Bar1
        Bar1 17 June 2020 09: 41
        -4
        Quote: arturpraetor
        This is the Chinese did not make a single scientific discovery? I’m embarrassed to ask - who invented the gunpowder then? And this is one single example.

        Bertold Schwartz or Bartholomew Chernets in the world, he is Sergey Radonezhsky according to Fomenko and Nosovsky.
        Bertold Schwartz, whom the Lutheran Chronograph says is Bertold the Colonial, and the famous cities of Berlin and Cologne used to be called Colonies.
        And besides, it was his gunpowder Bertold Schwartz who was the first to use Wends against the Genoese for the first time in this annals. Well, Wends are Slavs.
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 16 June 2020 21: 56
      +6
      I recall the joke "What are you scaring me with your gang?"

      If civilization gave Lao Tzu, Sun Tzu and Confucius will notice it.
    3. bk0010
      bk0010 16 June 2020 22: 10
      +7
      First, it enriched (gunpowder, silk, agricultural technology, naval technology). Secondly, there were plenty of scientists. Learned the wrong thing. Confucianism teaches that only a teacher (the founder of a school) can invent something new, and the rest should reproduce the canon as accurately as possible. And new schools weren't very welcome. Again, the Chinese prosperity-disorder-prosperity cycles should not be forgotten. China fundamentally does not go beyond the borders that the emperor could control, the population grew, resources began to be scarce, famine, robbers, uprisings, population decline, dynasty change, prosperity, population growth and all over again arose. Here even external attacks did not play a special role: China simply digested the winners, they became Chinese. In addition, back in the Middle Ages, the Chinese saw that they were ahead of the whole world in development by a couple of centuries, and decided, in order to maintain superiority, to encapsulate, to stop changing anything. But Europe was changing, and when the Europeans came to China, he could not resist them. Not like in India, where, with the hands of some Hindus, other Hindus were conquered for the East Indian campaign, but also overwhelmingly: with the loss of the Opium Wars and the creation of the fifth column of Meibani, who benefited from such a state of China. Only Mao could break the Chinese cycle.
      1. Esoteric
        Esoteric 16 June 2020 22: 27
        +1
        Thank you for the clarification! I read the same thing that the scientists of China, in ancient times, naturally, are those who learn, learn, rules. He will not try to create something new, but blindly, literally to the letter, follows the old, the instructions of his ancestors. And the one who will very well get it out without even understanding the essence, and will be able to pass the exam, if possible without departing even a letter from those texts, could be considered a scientist.
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 16 June 2020 22: 51
          -2
          For specific, read uncomfortable, questions are not accepted here. In official history, there is a lot against common sense, but this does not bother professional historians. They send to study monographs, where everything is presented, as the ultimate truth.
          The questions are how the logistics of military campaigns were organized, how many horses a warrior needs, how much a horse consumes, how much a warrior consumes, life issues are generally taboo. Maybe historians know, but for some reason they don’t write that you can’t give horses cold water in the winter.
          At best, I promise to think.
          1. Esoteric
            Esoteric 17 June 2020 06: 10
            -2
            Which, to say the water, still need somewhere to take.
            1. ee2100
              ee2100 17 June 2020 07: 48
              -2
              Not only. You need to have firewood to heat all this and time for all this action. Historians, if you ask this question, will tell at best about horse manure.
          2. Vlad world
            Vlad world 17 June 2020 09: 07
            -3
            Read about "ancient mighty China" Morozov. Narodnaya Volya. Sitting alone and without Grants, he studied this issue very well.
            Ancient annals are verified very well by solar and lunar eclipses. So in antiquity, China has an eclipse one in one Europe. Ancient Chinese eclipses were observed in Europe and in China they simply were not physically. The history of ancient China is Kalka from the history of Europe with the addition of local flavor.
            For information, during the excavation of the ceramic army, a Swiss-made watch ring was found. Archeology News for 2012.
            If you are interested, I can offer a source of the mid-17th century according to the description of China. Very interesting there and about the wall there.
            1. bk0010
              bk0010 17 June 2020 09: 46
              +6
              Quote: Vlad-world
              Read about "ancient mighty China" Morozov. Narodnaya Volya. Sitting alone and without Grants, he studied this issue very well.
              Well, yes: alone he brought documents, artifacts, and there he also conducted excavations ... The loner is the historian's ideal work place!
              1. ee2100
                ee2100 17 June 2020 11: 03
                -3
                Quote: bk0010
                Quote: Vlad-world
                Read about "ancient mighty China" Morozov. Narodnaya Volya. Sitting alone and without Grants, he studied this issue very well.
                Well, yes: alone he brought documents, artifacts, and there he also conducted excavations ... The loner is the historian's ideal work place!

                Here is the correct ideologically consistent answer. "What can your Morozov write?"
                1. bk0010
                  bk0010 17 June 2020 13: 39
                  +3
                  Your sarcasm does not carry any information. Can you object to the case? Do you really think that a royal sharashka was organized alone for historians?
                  1. ee2100
                    ee2100 17 June 2020 14: 02
                    -4
                    To argue that someone Morozov could not write anything worthwhile about China, for a start it would be good to get acquainted with his works, and you sweep everything aside from the "threshold". I haven’t read Morozov, and therefore I don’t have my own opinion about his work, but you probably read it since you have it.
                    1. bk0010
                      bk0010 17 June 2020 14: 11
                      +4
                      When someone claims that he wrote something scientific in prison not from the field of philosophy, theology or mathematics (that is, that which requires any material support for the study), he is already lying. Why waste time writing it?
                      1. ee2100
                        ee2100 17 June 2020 14: 31
                        -3
                        I don't care whether Morozov wrote something worthwhile or not, but I really don't like the negative attitude towards the opinion of opponents (colleagues on the sub-site) indiscriminately groan this is our all. Vlad-mir claims that Morozov had access to various literature. Show basic respect. Do not agree - you can motivate, but no better and not write. And to write: "he is already lying" is not an argument.
                        In prisons, in addition to the disciplines you have listed, you can write a lot of scientific information. Yes, and the story
                      2. bk0010
                        bk0010 17 June 2020 14: 45
                        +3
                        Quote: ee2100
                        indiscriminately moan this is our everything
                        Maybe this is all of you, but not mine.
                        Quote: ee2100
                        Do not agree - you can motivate, but it’s better not to write.
                        Alone, in imperial times, there could only be a bible (if the sidekick is very literate and from the nobility). They could have given paper (like Kibalchich), hoping for new evidence. But no Chinese documents could be there. They could not even be in the prison library: who would check these hieroglyphs for reliability?
                        In order to write a scientific work on history, you will need the results of excavations and / or a bunch of documents, plus the work of predecessors on the same topic (if any). Without all this, it will not be a scientific work, but an art book. Perhaps interesting, but not based on facts. The only way to implement your scenario is that the work has already been done, it remains to write it down. But in this case, the mention of a loner loses its meaning: the work was done earlier.
                      3. ee2100
                        ee2100 17 June 2020 14: 53
                        -3
                        Not convinced. Yes pathos over the edge. And at the expense of "indiscriminately groan" once again I will repeat your words that Morozov is lying.
                        There is no desire to pour from empty to empty. I wish you success!
                      4. Vlad world
                        Vlad world 17 June 2020 18: 53
                        -2
                        Personally for you. Morozov in prison mathematically calculated solar and lunar eclipses, where they could be observed during the years indicated in the Chinese annals (translated into Russian). So they were observed at that time in Europe and nothing more.
                        So this is a pretty big puncture of the Jesuits who wrote Chinese history. Being at court and doing horoscopes and stuff.
                        Read his book.
                      5. ee2100
                        ee2100 17 June 2020 21: 42
                        -3
                        Good evening. I read about it, a very long time. I didn’t take it seriously, and now, to get serious about this, you need to check Morozov’s data.
                        The fact that not everything is purely known in history for a very long time and that professional historians also know this, but no one wants to understand this, they are all on a salary.
                      6. Vlad world
                        Vlad world 17 June 2020 22: 11
                        0
                        Quote: ee2100
                        Good evening. I read about it, a very long time. I didn’t take it seriously, and now, to get serious about this, you need to check Morozov’s data.
                        The fact that not everything is purely known in history for a very long time and that professional historians also know this, but no one wants to understand this, they are all on a salary.


                        Well, according to some reports, like the British checked in 70, it was confirmed. But silent. Grants from the CCP are very good. We even seem to have an institute named after their philosopher. So they will throw like embrasures.
                        And so there is Persian poetry, and there is one poet and his poem, and in it are the lines that cover the IDP with a copper basin. And the Chinese invention of silk.
                        And much more.
                      7. ee2100
                        ee2100 17 June 2020 22: 26
                        -1
                        It is a pity that there is no forum on this site. Many of those present here also have opinions different from the official, but it is impossible to discuss them here, they usually discuss a given topic and not more than one day. Good luck!
                      8. Vlad world
                        Vlad world 18 June 2020 12: 05
                        0
                        Quote: ee2100
                        It is a pity that there is no forum on this site. Many of those present here also have opinions different from the official, but it is impossible to discuss them here, they usually discuss a given topic and not more than one day. Good luck!


                        If you are interested in history and you can go to the sites prohibited by the court, then type - Historical Noodles on Ushah. Go to the DPNI website and read the author's materials on the story. There are different topics
                        As one girl said, the teacher advised me.
                      9. ee2100
                        ee2100 18 June 2020 12: 17
                        0
                        I tried, it does not. Why is it more interesting here? Here the people are not so angered. Alternativists, if they are historians, are interesting, asking questions completely everywhere, but they lack knowledge.
                      10. Vlad world
                        Vlad world 18 June 2020 13: 31
                        0
                        Quote: ee2100
                        I tried, it does not. Why is it more interesting here? Here the people are not so angered. Alternativists, if they are historians, are interesting, asking questions completely everywhere, but they lack knowledge.


                        It is necessary to put specials. the program. I am not strong at this.
                        On yes unbiased. Such nonsense is also carried with foam on the lips.
                        The tops are being read in the works of the untouchables and let's affirm our point of view — or rather, even religion.
                      11. ee2100
                        ee2100 18 June 2020 13: 57
                        0
                        I agree that such blinkered thinking in thinking is surprising, like everyone is sane. It feels like they have taken a perimeter defense and defend the official history by the last click on the keyboard. I understand that a person has convictions on various issues, but when something does not fit into a furrow, few people want to develop why, as a rule, you will be accused of all mortals, labeled and anathematized on this site. There are, from opponents, normal people and sometimes they admit that it is "so accepted" or historians "agreed so".
                      12. Vlad world
                        Vlad world 18 June 2020 14: 34
                        0
                        Quote: ee2100
                        I agree that such blinkered thinking in thinking is surprising, like everyone is sane. It feels like they have taken a perimeter defense and defend the official history by the last click on the keyboard. I understand that a person has convictions on various issues, but when something does not fit into a furrow, few people want to develop why, as a rule, you will be accused of all mortals, labeled and anathematized on this site. There are, from opponents, normal people and sometimes they admit that it is "so accepted" or historians "agreed so".


                        So they really took up all-round defense .. The people are knowledgeable sea information, and there are many historians. So it’s impossible to agree on all the nuances. And do not crawl out the joints glued with saliva hastily.
                        One writes that the Tan River is not localized, and the other that the ancient Greeks already knew Tan or Tanais or Don.
                        And they told me personally, as we write, it will be so. After a lecture in a historical museum in a circle from prof. historians.
                        And basically they don’t answer the questions - they skip the answer to other topics. Labels immediately hang up insults thin reach if the opponent breaks. And then say phi and leave.
                      13. ee2100
                        ee2100 18 June 2020 14: 38
                        0
                        About labels and insults. Perhaps this is taught at the Faculty of History. Glad our views on history coincide
  • Vlad world
    Vlad world 17 June 2020 12: 10
    -2
    No need to give out their fantasies for my writings. Where it was written about the excavation by Morozov, you already hold back your exuberant imagination.
    And in Tsarist Russia, prisoners were allowed to write and read books. Including historical such as Chinese annals.
    But in history there is no boom, but there you would blurt out. And that is not important. Check in to show yourself.
    1. ee2100
      ee2100 17 June 2020 13: 02
      0
      Historians do not give answers to inconvenient questions - they send them to teach the "materiel", or rather the dogmas of the "karifes" of history, begin to hang labels on everyone, or at best pretend not to notice. According to their ideas, the ancestors lived according to completely different laws.
    2. bk0010
      bk0010 17 June 2020 13: 37
      +2
      Chinese annals in the prison library. Yeah. Then the prison’s superknives too - reality turns out.
  • Bar1
    Bar1 17 June 2020 09: 52
    -2
    Quote: Ezoterik
    No, well, still about this very China.


    about China. Firstly, the Chinese word is Russian, the Chinese call themselves Han, i.e. Khan people.
    There is an image of Russian ambassadors in China at the signing of the Nerchinsk Peace,

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Нерчинский_договор

    and so there the Chinese are NOT CHINESE, not Mongoloids. And this answers all the questions, who are the Tartars / Tatars and who are the Mongols.


    1. gsev
      gsev 22 July 2020 13: 26
      0
      Quote: Bar1
      and so there the Chinese are NOT CHINESE, not Mongoloids.

      There are Vietnamese posters depicting Lenin. It turns out that Vladimir Ilyich was a Mongoloid and wore Vietnamese national clothes.
  • Revolver
    Revolver 16 June 2020 23: 14
    0
    What the *** t picture under the title "Mongolo-Tatars" drew? Anyone who dared to wash or wash a horse in a pond, according to the law of Yasa Genghis Khan, should be immediately executed with a fracture of the spine.
  • starpur
    starpur 17 June 2020 00: 33
    -5
    Can I use obscenities? Ancient Ukrainians dug up the Black Sea, ancient Bulbans planted Polesie and muddied the Polesie swamps!
  • Threaded screw
    Threaded screw 17 June 2020 10: 51
    +1
    Permanent strife and invasion of foreigners
    This is with a few exceptions the whole history of local peoples, then they took Rurik to work, and his descendants turned Russifier code, everything started a new way. Now the same thing, the boyars gathered in 91 and decided to empire the principalities, to become princes, to divide their inheritances, and raced, feuds, raids, wars ...
  • Vlad world
    Vlad world 17 June 2020 19: 08
    -3
    Quote: ee2100
    Historians do not give answers to inconvenient questions - they send them to teach the "materiel", or rather the dogmas of the "karifes" of history, begin to hang labels on everyone, or at best pretend not to notice. According to their ideas, the ancestors lived according to completely different laws.


    Alas, the answer is I do not know a specialist.
    True, one candidate answered my question simply - it was a hack.
    And from uncomfortable questions theirs the universe collapses. Here they look at the enemies of the people.
    Read Morozov, there are still interesting books.
    And in the chronicles about the horrors of the capture of cities by the Tatars, it is not so simple. They duplicate word for word the early news of the same annals. And in one text is scraped off and on this place the text about capture is inscribed.
  • Diviz
    Diviz 17 June 2020 22: 05
    -2
    Definitions began to print interesting - Ulus Jocha!
    Then we complicate the task for the authors:
    1. The Tatar-Mongol army made a maneuver for the forces of the Huns. So the Huns are the Tatar-Mongol army. You can tell in detail there was a difference between the two, if any.
    2. The Huns turn out to be the Ephalites, but they lived in the country of Bactria and Sogdiana. These countries were captured by Alexander the Great. Alexander Nevsky also has a Greek name. Is there something in common between them? In terms of ideological warfare. ! Or so it happened.
    3. Tell us where did the Tarim mummies come from?
    4. Tell us about the wars for Illion and Babylon.
  • Diviz
    Diviz 18 June 2020 14: 48
    0
    On the eve of the storm and what happened before the eve of the storm. It turns out there was a Hungarian-Byzantine war. 1151-1156. And then there were Hungarian Byzantine princesses. And what purpose was it so simple to slip the Byzantine princess to the prince of another state. The Hungarian state turns out to be an aggressor uniting with Sicily. But for some reason, the war did not move towards Byzantium, but came to us north after 60 years.
    So please, if you write some sort of royal Hungarian or Russian prince, then mention what kind of relatives he had.
  • Dzungar
    Dzungar 23 June 2020 16: 35
    0
    Great article. THANKS to the author