Military Review

Southwest Russia: geography, ancient history, sources of information

114

Map with the ancestral home of the Slavs and their settlement in the Early Middle Ages. Volyn is located just in the middle of this alleged ancestral home.


The Galicia-Volyn principality on the Internet is a kind of paradox. Not much has been written about him than about other parts of Russia, a serious study of it stories It began relatively recently, and before that there were only short, episodic studies that at best superficially covered the history of this region from the Middle Ages. At the same time, the attitude to the very combination of the words “Galicia” and “Volhynia” is obviously biased for many people and, as a rule, reaches extremes: from great enthusiasm to great neglect, despite the fact that both those who express enthusiasm and those who express neglect, usually know a little more than nothing. So, in the network you can find “reliable information” that the Romanovichi state was Uniate and that it was from it that the Greek Catholic Church went. Why then did the Brest Union of 1596 be needed - the question in this case is rhetorical .... And there are plenty of such moments.

However, there is a reason for this, and quite significant - in fact, there is no simple history of Southwest Russia before it was included in the crown of Poland. Until now, some sufficiently detailed, but at the same time simple and understandable set of information has not come to light, and all the materials that can shed light on this question are either required to be found first, or they are simply not yet available and remain unknown . Two other factors do not simplify matters. The first is the relative inaccessibility of truly high-quality historical sources - they must be sought purposefully, an accidental encounter is practically excluded. The second factor boils down to a very complicated historical process at times, which simply does not have a single description in different sources. For example, when writing the current cycle, I had to come across four (at least) descriptions of what happened after the death of Roman Mstislavich in Galich. Similar in general, they differed in the details and sequence of minor events, as a result of which, in order to form a coherent and understandable picture, we had to make assumptions and some simplifications to make everything clear to the ordinary reader.

It was to fill the gap in the general history of South-Western Russia that it was decided to write a series of articles on the history of the Galicia-Volyn land in a broad sense - from ancient times to its absorption by Lithuania and Poland. Everything will be told as simple and clear as possible, but at the same time without omitting important and interesting details. And the story will begin from afar, from the middle of the first millennium, namely from the details that interest us, which can complement the understanding of what was going on in this region before the Rurikovich ...

If the world is a theater, then what is the scene?


The whole world is a theater. There are women in it, men are all actors. They have their own exits, cares, And each one plays a role
V. Shakespeare


If you follow the words of the great British poet and playwright, then we can say that the history of the world in general, and the history of Galicia and Volhynia in particular, are one big idea. In this case, certain territories turn into scenes on which the main action unfolds. Therefore, it will be appropriate, before moving on to people and their actions, to briefly describe the territory on which the main action will unfold. So it will be easier to understand in what conditions the events took place, their nature and basis.

According to the most popular and probable theory about the ancestral home of the Slavs, the ancestors of all modern Slavic peoples once lived in the interfluve of the Vistula and the Dnieper. As a rule, the modern Belarusian swamps are called the northern border of this ancestral home, and the boundary between the steppe and forest-steppe is the southern border. Galicia and Volyn are located approximately in the middle of this territory, i.e. definitely belong to the ancestral home of the Slavs. This immediately determines a number of important conditions that need to be remembered in the future: the Slavs, or rather, their individual tribes, lived on this territory for a very long time, settled it, developed, mastered, built complex economic relations between different settlements, etc. In addition, geographically, this region was closer to Western Europe than the rest of Russia, and therefore faster perceived many trends and technologies. At the same time, the Steppe was still nearby, and therefore the principality remained open to influence from the East.

Thus, it is not surprising that, in some respects, the development of these territories could outrun, for example, the development of many other regions of Russia, which were settled by the Slavs later, or experienced significant external pressure, as was the case with the glades in the region modern Kiev. In addition, geography determined a fairly high protection against large-scale outside intrusions. From the West, the region was covered for a long time by impassable forests, and only along the Western Bug could the Poles get into the Volyn lands. In the north there were impassable Polesie swamps, from the south - the Carpathians, which were the natural border between Hungary and Russia. Only in the east were the territories open enough for large invasions from the steppes or the Dnieper, but there was also a kind of buffer in the form of tribes of the Bokhovites, who, until the end of their existence, had their own opinions about who ruled their land and resisted the rule of the Rurikovich (or at least Rurikovich from other principalities).

The potential of this territory was extremely large. In the era of agrarian economies, it was agriculture that determined the welfare of the local population - and for its rapid development, all the conditions were here. The rivers on the northeastern slopes of the Carpathians at that time were full of water, the land yielded good crops, the forests were full of game. Apparently, by the time of accession to the state of Vladimir the Great, these territories were quite densely populated, and therefore economically they represented a tidbit. In the coming years, all aspects of economic activity were rapidly developing here, but first of all - animal husbandry, beekeeping and gardening, of which the largest number of references has been preserved. However, there are periodic references to other household affairs and crafts: foundry and jewelry, wheat cultivation, pottery, etc. The fairly rapid growth of cities in this region contributed to the development of crafts, as a result of which chroniclers very actively mention masters of various specialties.

Already at the beginning of the XIII century, the export of lamb skins amounted to thousands, and local horse breeding, which was carried out mainly by hired representatives of the steppe peoples, provided not only the needs of the troops, but also a substantial profit from the sale of horses to neighbors. In addition, rich deposits of salt were concentrated on the territory of the Galician land, which was mined and transported both in Russia and to the west, to neighboring countries. Finally, an important trade route from the Baltic to the Black Sea passed through Galich, going along the Vistula River to the south, and then passing to the Dniester, which was navigable at that time, on the banks of which the city of Galich stood. Even when the Path from the Varangians to the Greeks died down, this branch of the Amber Road continued to exist and brought big profits to those who controlled it. Finally, three-field farming came to Southwest Russia earlier than its other territories, significantly increasing the efficiency of agriculture - it seems that it was taken from Poland somewhere between the middle of the XNUMXth and XNUMXth centuries, while it appeared in the Novgorod and Moscow states only in the XV century. All this suggests that in the Middle Ages Galicia and Volhynia were very rich regions, the possession of which promised considerable benefits, which inevitably gave rise to constant conflicts over the possession of this land, and provided significant potential for a hypothetical state that could arise in the South-West Russia.

And what are the actors?


The social development of Southwest Russia repeated what happened among the Eastern Slavs as a whole, but with some differences that brought Galicia and Volyn closer to Novgorod land - another region where the Slavs lived a long time ago, and managed to not only noticeably develop in terms of development territory, but also in terms of the progress of society. Initially, of course, it all started with a tribal system. Each clan, as a rule, founded a hillfort and cultivated a certain territory of the earth, and over time, the clan-hill forts began to unite in more or less permanent tribal unions. From among the community members, even before the unification of Russia, it was distinguished to know - “sculpted”, “best” people, the richest and most influential representatives of local society. At first they were truly the voice of the people, and defended exclusively the interests of the community, since their own wealth and position of the nobility depended strongly on the will of the national assembly, the eternity. Veche could either endow a noble person with power and wealth, or deprive him of everything and expel him for any misconduct. For a long time this predetermined the preservation of the integrity of the community, the absence of a pronounced antagonism in it, as a result of which the community members acted as a united front on important issues, be they representatives of the nobility, or ordinary citizens or free peasants. Later, already in the time of Russia, representatives of the local nobility would be called boyars, and as influence and prosperity accumulated, they would nevertheless gradually separate from the community, sometimes using it for their own purposes, and sometimes even entering into a confrontation with it.

After generations, the development of the social system led to the formation of a kind of vertical power, tied to settlements. The smallest ones that did not have their own political will were villages and ancient settlements that formed rural communities and generally retained signs of a tribal society. Suburbs with their communities stood a little higher - large settlements, by the standards of their time - full-fledged cities. Despite a rather high degree of development, a large (again by the standards of the time) population and quite active development of handicraft production, they still remained dependent, although they already had their own well-established boyars. Above these suburbs stood the main city, it is the capital city, where, as a rule, the prince sat, and whose nobility was "the highest state elite." The largest cities of this kind in the southwest were Galich and Vladimir-Volynsky, both of which were founded already under Rurikovich. A little smaller were the much older Cherven and Przemysl, which formed a network of suburbs and rural communities around them even before the advent of the Rurikovich. Over time, their suburbs could grow stronger and become cities themselves - for example, the same Galich himself was originally only a suburb of Przemysl. All this formed a structure reminiscent of ancient Greek city-states, as modern historians have repeatedly mentioned, with the reservation, of course, that the similarities are only the most common. Such a structure was found almost throughout the territory of Russia since the Middle Ages, but in the South-West it has probably reached its greatest development.

The difference between the Galicia-Volyn land from most of the territories of Russia (with the exception of Novgorod again) was that the local boyars had already been developing for many generations by the time the united state was created, deeply rooted, and was much stronger than, for example, in Kiev, Smolensk or elsewhere. In addition, the process of decomposition into a single community has already been launched - both rural and urban. The boyars gradually gained wealth and strength, reaching the point where they were already free to manipulate the mood of the community, or even completely fight it. Around the end of the XII century, all the conditions for the existence of the boyars and the community separately were already formed, signs of which began to meet more and more often, especially against the background of the turbulent political history of this region. In Novgorod, a similar process led to a weakening of the prince's role and the formation of the republic; certain trends also existed in Galich. The strength of the local boyars along with the development of his ambitions led to a clash with the interests of the Rurikovich communities and princes, which over and over again led to aggravations and problems. And if you add to this the strife that goes on among the Rurikovichs themselves, you get a completely unimaginable political mess, worthy of the best seasons of the Game of Thrones. On such a magnificent and richly decorated stage, the performance simply had to turn into such an impressive action that a harsh real world would more than interest any fiction of contemporary authors. However, first things first ...

About Ants, Goths, God and the rest



Prior to the formation of united Russia, a large number of different tribes lived in and around Volyn. Little is known about some of them, more about others. In general, there is not much information, but some conclusions can be drawn from it. First of all, this information is associated with the tribes of Duleb, Buzhan and Volhynians, who lived in the territory of present-day Galicia and Volhynia from the XNUMXth to the XNUMXth centuries AD. Some historians describe them as different tribes that replaced each other, while others are inclined to believe that all three names belong to the same tribe, possibly to different parts of it, or at different times. There were also smaller tribes that played a role in the history of the region: the Bokhovtsy, worms, streets, Tivertsi; some territories of the future Galicia-Volyn principality were also inhabited by Drevlyans, Dregovichi, and White Croats. Nevertheless, the Buzhanians (Volhynians) remained the most numerous at any moment of time, and the two most interesting episodes from the history of Southwest Russia from the Early Middle Ages are associated with them.

The first dates back to the end of the 70th century AD. The historian Jordan, talking about the Ostrogoth war with the Ants, mentions the leader God, who won a number of victories over the Goths, but in the end his troops were defeated, and he himself was captured with his sons and 375 elders. They were all crucified by order of the Ostrogoth king Vitimir, who defeated God. God himself is attributed by modern historians to the Buzhan tribe, which did not prevent him from leading the army of the Antsky Union and being defeated on the territory of the Left Bank of the Dnieper. With a very brief mention and the absence of numerous details from this episode, we can already draw a definite conclusion. The Ants in general, and the Buzhan in particular, had already gone far enough in the process of decomposition of primitive society by the year XNUMX, since they had formed the military nobility (who undoubtedly were the elders mentioned) and had their own leader. For the Slavs of those times, this was a sign of a very high degree of development.

The second episode is difficult to determine chronologically, but it can be dated no later than the beginning of the XNUMXth century. The Arab geographer Al-Masudi wrote about certain tribes of the “Valinan” and “Dulibi” (Volhynians and Dulebov), which King Madjak once ruled. If we discard possible exaggerations and mistakes made due to ignorance of local realities, then from the text you can make a very definite and logical picture of past times with respect to the author. Volynians were one of the indigenous Slavic tribes, from which all the others had once left, which fits well with the theory of the ancestral home of the Slavs. During the time of the leader (king) of Madzhak, they ruled over all the Slavs, but soon other tribes became stronger, strife began, and a powerful tribal union crumbled. How similar this picture is to the truth is a rhetorical question, since the times are too long and nobody canceled the effect of the damaged phone, and the name “Majak” is uncharacteristic for the Slavs, to put it mildly. Nevertheless, from scratch, such a story, most likely, could not have arisen, and therefore one can draw another conclusion that since ancient times, the territory of Volyn was inhabited by highly developed Slavic tribes that had one way or another influence on the territories surrounding them. With fairly serious assumptions, one can even assume that the times of “King Madjak” were somehow connected with the Antsky Union, which clearly included the Volyn-Buzhan people, and who could play a significant, if not leading, role in it.

However, these are just assumptions and rather shaky information from sources that are not of the nature of the ultimate truth. On this, conversations of the “one grandmother said” level about South-Western Russia can be completed by finally imagining what happened there until the X century of our era and which territories then became part of Russia. Therefore, after a brief acquaintance with the legends of antiquity, you can switch to closer times, which are much more known, - the period of unification of East Slavic lands under the rule of the Rurikovich dynasty.

Speaking of sources


Usually in such cycles, a list of sources is given either under each article or at the very end. However, anticipating an ambiguous reaction from uninitiated readers, I publish a list of sources on which the current cycle is based, at the very beginning, in the first material, in order to make it clear that all descriptions and logical constructions are not based on nothing.

In general, as already mentioned above, the whole cycle is only an attempt to bring everything together and give the most general, but integral picture of the history of the development of South-West Russia in the Middle Ages, and therefore each person who desired more details can safely get acquainted with them, having studied materials from the current list. Despite the fact that the names are given in Russian, a significant part of these materials is written in the Ukrainian language, and among the historians are Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Poles and one Kazakh. It is also worth noting that in different works an absolutely opposite point of view on the same question can be given, therefore, those who want to study the topic in more detail will have to think and choose for themselves which version is more plausible for them. I will draw up a description of historical events from my analysis and the conclusions arising from it.

Mayorov A.V. Galician-Volyn Rus. Essays on socio-political relations in the pre-Mongol period. Prince, boyars and urban community.
Kupchinsky O. Acts and documents of the Galicia-Volyn principality of the XII - the first half of the XIV centuries.
Mayorov A.V. Was Daniil Galitsky a participant in the Battle of Leyte?
Voloshuk M.M. Hungarian presence in Galicia in 1214-1219.
Stefanovich P. S. Fidelity in the relations of the prince and the squad in the XII-XIII centuries.
Mayorov A.V. From the history of foreign policy of Galicia-Volyn Rus during the time of Roman Mstislavich.
Dombrowski D. Galician-Volyn annals about the death of the King of Germany Philip of Swabia and the fate of St. Elizabeth of Hungary.
Froyanov I. Ya. Galitsko-Volyn Rus: between Byzantium, the Mongols and Rome (achievements and problems of recent historiography).
Kripyakevich I. Galicia-Volyn principality.
The Galician-Volyn Chronicle.
Mayorov A.V. Daniil of Galitsky and the Crusade to Prussia.
Mayorov A.V. Daniil Galitsky and Friedrich the Warlike: Russian-Austrian Relations in the Middle of the XNUMXth Century
Mayorov A.V. Daniil Galitsky and the beginning of the formation of the cult of St. Daniel Stolpnik at the Rurikovich.
Mayorov A.V. Daughter of the Byzantine Emperor Isaac II in Galicia-Volyn Rus: Princess and Nun.
Kotlyar N.F. The ideological and political creed of the Galicia-Volyn arch.
Tolochko A.P. Is the year of birth of Daniil Romanovich Galitsky known?
Dombrovsky D. On the issue of the dates of the birth of Daniil and Vasilka Romanovich (notes to the article by A.P. Tolochko).
Tolochko A.P. What was the name of the second wife of Roman Mstislavich?
Kotlyar N.F. Princely court in Galich in the XII century.
Kotlyar N.F. Yard of the Galician Romanovichs (XIII century).
Voitovich L.V. Prince Lev Danilovich - commander and politician.
Martynyuk A.V. Prince Rostislav at the Battle of the Leyte River. "Russian episode" of Austrian history.
Tolochko A.P. Constitutional project of Roman Mstislavich in 1203: an attempt at historiographic research.
Mayorov A.V. Mongolian conquest of Volyn and Galicia: controversial and unresolved issues.
Litvina A.F., Uspensky F.B. Violent tonsure of the princely family in Kiev: from interpretation of circumstances to reconstruction of causes.
Kotlyar N.F. On the possible nature of unconventional structure and form of the Galician-Volyn annals.
Voitovich L.V. On some problems of the study of Galicia-Volyn Rus at the time of Roman Mstislavich and Daniil Romanovich (notes on recent historiography).
Ivanova E.E. On the issue of the Horde policy of Prince Daniil Romanovich Galitsky.
Stefanovich P. S. Relations between the prince and the nobility in the Galician and Volyn principalities at the end of the XII century.
Mayorov A.V. The First Union of Russia with Rome.
Moiseev D. A. On the field fortifications of the Russian army in the XII-XV centuries: islands, ramparts, ditches, city, firmament, pillar, prison, goods.
Yurasov M.K. Arpadov’s policy towards Russia after the failure of Boris Kalmanovich’s adventure.
Tolochko A.P. Did Roman Mstislavich accept the embassy of Pope Innocent III in 1204?
Lukin P.V. Was there a militia in ancient Russia? Some comparative historical observation.
Tomenchuk B.P. Four princes' courtyards of the chronicle Galich: results of archaeological research of palace complexes (1991-2012).
Chebanenko S. B. Execution of Princes Igorevich in Galich: legal and ritual aspects of events.
Voitovich L.V. Reforms of the army by the princes Daniil Romanovich and Lev Danilovich in the middle of the XIII century.
Voitovich L.V. Military activity of Prince Daniil Romanovich in the context of the military development of Central and Eastern Europe of the XIII century.
Grushevsky M.S. History of Ukraine-Rus.
Sabitov Zh. About the size of the Mongol army in the Western campaign.
Materials that are freely available on the Internet, and much more.


To be continued ...
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  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 May 2020 06: 06 New
    23
    Good morning Arthur!
    Standing on the “thin ice” in search of the Slavic homeland, especially on the pages of the Military Review, you showed rare courage !!! For "tear your work" will be all, and literally !!! With your thesis about the Galitsko-Volyn “protocol of the whitewash of Slavic society” you took the Black Sea and the Caucasian swamps from some, Hyperborea from the others, Pripeta swamps from the others, Volkhov-Ilmensky personally from me !!! But the worst thing with your work is you encroached on 25 millennia of Russo-Slavs-Arians, who fought against Tartaria for 40 centuries !!!
    So we begin to dig out the ax of war and lay around books !!!
    Thank you for the battlefield, traditionalists stand under the banner, Fomenko-Nasovshinovtsy do not sleep !!! smile
    R.s. I would like to see the archaeological aspect of confirming your version of the origin of the Slavs.
    With sincere respect, admiration, Vlad !!
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 23 May 2020 07: 53 New
      +6
      Vlad! hi
      I’ll clarify, the author’s name is Artem.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 May 2020 09: 28 New
        +2
        Anton, again I lost my mind. I apologize, of course, Artyom!
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 23 May 2020 11: 36 New
          +1
          Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Anton, again I lost my mind. I apologize, of course, Artyom!

          My eldest son's name is Arthur, I also get confused all the time))
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 23 May 2020 19: 30 New
            0
            Well, I finally found out your elder’s name! It remains to ask the names of others. For one and the wife ... laughing
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 23 May 2020 20: 53 New
              +1
              Gostaina))
              1. Normal ok
                Normal ok 24 May 2020 21: 23 New
                +2
                Quote: Krasnodar
                Gostaina))

                Rare name))
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 24 May 2020 21: 29 New
                  0
                  Soviet, popular laughing
      2. arturpraetor
        23 May 2020 15: 02 New
        +4
        I’m Artyom in reality, but in the network I can be called Arthur. I even subscribe in a personal, like Artyom / Arthur hi
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 23 May 2020 19: 35 New
          +2
          I recall the immortal: "Rumyantsev is for the housing office, for the public, I am a Pencil!"
    2. Undecim
      Undecim 23 May 2020 09: 49 New
      +7
      No one took anything from the author. Judging by the article, he is a supporter of the Middle Dnieper-West Bug hypothesis of the Slavic ancestral home, to which M. Fasmer, K. Moshinsky, G. Ulashin, F. P. Filin, A. I. Terenozhkin, V. P. Petrov, E. V. Maximov and a number of historians. Very worthy company.
      Moreover, the scientists themselves, moreover, in all Slavic countries, still consider this question open.
      And one more interesting moment. Just for fun, I looked at Polish literature on this subject. In the bibliography - a lot of references to Russian-language sources, from imperial, to Soviet and modern.
      And try here who to refer to Polish sources !!! Therefore, the author should calmly relate to the comments, since I decided to raise such a topic. By the way, sources from other Slavic countries would greatly expand the information field for the author.
      1. arturpraetor
        23 May 2020 15: 04 New
        +5
        Quote: Undecim
        By the way, sources from other Slavic countries would greatly expand the information field for the author.

        The list of primary sources that I dug on the topic of the GVK and Southwest Russia in general, initially had more than a hundred items, and there were definitely materials from many Slavic countries. It’s just that the editorial office passed the list, I just forgot some of the sources after use, and the part does not deserve any trust, therefore I decided not laughing But in general, if it were not for the huge amount of materials that I had shoveled on the topic over the past year (and I started the work more than a year ago), then I would not have decided to publish a series of articles.
    3. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 23 May 2020 11: 55 New
      +2
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      I personally - Volkhov-Ilmensky

      Vlad, did you seriously consider the Volkhovye and Priilmenye as the cradle of Slavism? The Slavs appeared there at the very end, at the end of the XNUMXth century. Well, if we assume that the Pskov culture of the long barrows was Slavic (although this must be proved!), Then in the XNUMXth century, but certainly not before ...
      The cradle of Russian statehood - yes. But not Slavs.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 May 2020 13: 01 New
        +4
        Michael, I have nothing to add! Taking off my hat.
        My opinion is that the Ilmen Slavs are the dry residue of the Slavs in general. It is not a fact that this ethnic group lived on the territory of the Ladoga or Ilmen basin. An eastern vector of migration is possible, which was served by the movement of the Germans to the south in the 1st and 2nd centuries of our era.
    4. Doctor
      Doctor 23 May 2020 13: 16 New
      +3
      R.s. I would like to see the archaeological aspect of confirming your version of the origin of the Slavs.


      Systemically - the series "Archeology of the USSR".
      https://www.archaeolog.ru/ru/el-bib/el-cat/el-series/arch-sssr
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 May 2020 13: 38 New
        +6
        I have her complete collection. Last read in 2014 !!!
        Some of the incidents of "archeology"! Back in 2002 began to be built. Lomami pushed a 6 meter rail. And he began. After some time I forgot about her. He recalled periodically, regretted, thought how the bastards could sack a 6-meter-high fool from the garden without breaking the fence. Around 2015, he began to dig a well for warming around a recently drilled well. And at a depth of about a meter I found her native! God pardoned me when they drilled a well. If the cone of the drill flew into her, I would have been left without pants. They made the foundation for the boiler room and the bathhouse, and everything was somehow successful. I had to dig and cut a piece. Completely remove it is not realistic.
        So, here is such an everyday incident. After several centuries, archaeologists will break their heads. Why did the owner bury the rail? repeat
        1. bubalik
          bubalik 23 May 2020 20: 27 New
          +3
          ,,, how did she get to the site?
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 May 2020 20: 54 New
            +2
            Good evening Sergey.
            Father wanted to make a balcony, on vertical rails. Smart people rejected him. I put six of her brothers into the garage, and the seventh remained in the garden!
    5. arturpraetor
      23 May 2020 15: 02 New
      +4
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      With his thesis about the Galicia-Volyn “Protocols, the whites of the Slavic society”

      Duc is, I'm not saying that "everything was exactly that way, I swear by my mother!" laughing It's just that in the framework of the legend about GVK, this is the most valuable theory, and from the lips of modern historians I heard it most often. In addition, the GVK is not a protocol, but only part of this protocol. On the map given in the article, one of many different ones, the region of the Slavic ancestral home is much larger than the borders of the Romanovich state, and extends far to the west, to Lesser Poland, and to the east, up to the Dnieper, and north-south. About this ancestral home, in the framework of this legend, I painted it solely in order to start this legend and immediately set the tone with the thought that the Slavs live there for a long time, have been developing for a long time, and therefore certain nuances of their development, distinguishable from the rest of Russia, may be very justified .
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      I would like to see the archaeological aspect of confirming your version of the origin of the Slavs.

      Here, alas, it’s not strong, and my colleagues have already done it better than me. Regarding theories, I myself relied on personal experience, and alas, from all the studies that I leafed through, theories that are distinguishable from the Vistula and Dnieper rivers are very rare, from which we can conclude that historians are inclined to this theory. Moreover, historians of so many countries.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 May 2020 19: 24 New
        +2
        Artyom, thanks for the initiative !!! The topic is extremely complex, controversial and confusing, but it is interesting to read not in your presentation! Plus guys pulled themselves up. Mikhail has already nailed two nails into the coffin of my fabrications !!! laughing
        So, a low bow for work and a platform for the games of the mind !!! My regards!
      2. Engineer
        Engineer 23 May 2020 22: 43 New
        +2
        About the "Volyn ancestral home"
        What archeology says.
        The oldest reliable Slavic antiquities were discovered in the framework of the Przeworsk (multi-ethnic) culture. Attribution was done by retrospective analysis

        A group of monuments with numbers 1 and 3 are considered to belong mainly to (right) Slavs
        This is the point of view, for example, Sedov and, in part, Rusanova
        It can be clearly seen that they are noticeably west of the later Galician-Volyn principality.
        In general, the Vistula-Oder hypothesis met me more often than others
        Specifically, in Volyn in the 2-3 centuries there was a Zubretsky culture, a local variant of Przhevorskaya. Since the times of the USSR (Kozak), Ukrainian archaeologists considered it to be the oldest Slavic proper. Nevertheless, the prevailing point of view is that this culture, although close to the Slavs, has no direct descendants.
        In Volyn, from the 3rd century, the Zubretsky monuments were replaced by the Velbark-German
  2. Olgovich
    Olgovich 23 May 2020 06: 08 New
    +2
    Apparently, it was adopted from Poland somewhere between the middle of the XII and XIII centuries, while in the Novgorod and Moscow states it appeared only in the XV century. All this suggests that in the Middle Ages Galicia and Volhynia were very rich regions, the possession of which promised considerable benefits

    I think that shopping Novgorod was no less rich in Galicia

    However, these are just assumptions and rather shaky information from sources that do not have the character of truth in the last resort. On this, conversations of the “one grandmother said” level about South-Western Russia can be completed by finally imagining what happened there until the X century of our era and which territories then became part of Russia.

    In my opinion, this is the correct, cautious approach, without the categorical nature of superenos inherent in some respected authors ...

    all descriptions and logical constructions are not based on nothing

    It:
    : Grushevsky M.S. History of Ukraine-Rus
    -It's quite an EMPTY place and as a justification for something it is extremely doubtful .... The history of what is in nature .... NEVER existed
    1. cost
      cost 23 May 2020 07: 11 New
      +7
      Good morning Vlad hi
      Good morning Andrey hi
      I think that shopping Novgorod was no less rich in Galicia

      Yes, and Izborsk, Ladoga, Zavolochye, Pskov, Kamno, Ryuga and Opochka of that time were ancient and inhabited, Novgorod. And that means no less rich. What is indicated by the presence of the most ancient Slavic fortifications on the territory of modern Russia. According to legend, they were all founded either by Gostomysl, or by his son, Sloven
      PS.On Izborsk (Truvorov) settlement, as well as in other places in the north-west of Russia (Ladoga, Pskov, Kamno, Rõuge, Zavolochye), foundry molds for limestone jewelry were developed in Prague culture of the early Slavs at the turn of the VI – VII centuries exactly the same as in Galicia and Volhynia
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 May 2020 09: 59 New
        +3
        Everything is True, Novgorod is quite a modern ancient settlement in the archaeological sense. But Ilmen Slovenia lived on the shores of Ladoga, Volkhov and Ilmen before. A number of scholars point to some insulating signs of the formation of the culture of the Ilmen society, which speaks of their possible living at a certain stage apart from the main group of Slavs.
        Regards, Vlad!
    2. arturpraetor
      23 May 2020 15: 08 New
      +2
      Quote: Olgovich
      I think that shopping Novgorod was no less rich in Galicia

      As a trading city - not only no less, but possibly more. But as the land, as a principality, Volhynia and Subcarpathia, most likely, exceeded Novgorod in the aggregate, and significantly. Banal geography - Novgorod is much north, there is much less population.
      Quote: Olgovich
      it’s quite an EMPTY place and as a justification for something it is extremely doubtful .... The history of what is in nature .... NEVER existed

      It's funny, but for some reason historians disagree with you smile Grushevsky is CONSTANTLY referred to in historical studies; references are made to him by Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, and anyone else. And this is not surprising - Grushevsky dug up tons of materials in his time to write his books. That's just an idol is not erected from it, and the truth in the last resort is not declared. If indicated by Grushevsky is blocked by other sources - excellent. If it contradicts them, it means that he composed or pulled an owl on a globe. And so with EVERY historical work, regardless of whether someone likes it or not.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 24 May 2020 07: 17 New
        -3
        Quote: arturpraetor
        It's funny, but for some reason historians disagree with you

        Disagree with this:
        as justifications anything highly doubtful.... The story of what is in nature .... NEVER existed
        ?

        Ukraine-Russia did not exist. Do you think otherwise?
        Quote: arturpraetor
        Banal geography - Novgorod far north, there is much less population.

        the larger the population, the richer ... belay lol
        Bangladesh and other Nigeria. apparently they don’t know ....
        1. arturpraetor
          24 May 2020 13: 45 New
          +3
          Quote: Olgovich
          Disagree with this:

          We do not agree with your preconceived attitude towards the work of Grushevsky. What's the difference what it is called there if the material has a certain value? Have you read it at all, or "did not read it, but I condemn it"? If we ignore the author's jingoistic patriotic tinge, it is quite a historical work. Not perfect, not indisputable, but better than many other scribbles, including modern works about Hyperborea and the Etruscan Rus. I, frankly, did not master all of Grushevsky, but I was very surprised when, contrary to the statements of people like you, he had a lot of assumptions, and very few categorical judgments, for example, about ancient history.
          Quote: Olgovich
          Ukraine-Russia did not exist. Do you think otherwise?

          I believe that clinging to names without having an idea of ​​what is specifically described in the material is somewhat biased. I don’t work like that. As practice shows, many historians, too.
          Quote: Olgovich
          the larger the population, the richer ...

          Khm-khm ... The larger the population, the milder the climate, the more land and water resources - the better the agriculture, the more workers can be attracted to it. The more developed agriculture is, the greater is the output of output from it, and agricultural production, for a second, is the basis of the economy of the Middle Ages. Similarly with crafts and crafts. Working hands at that time were almost a more valuable resource than anything else. And in this regard, Novgorod land, populated below the average in Russia, still loses to the South-West (and other regions), where the population is above average. This does not mean that besides Novgorod there was a desert in the north, but the fact that Novgorod land has always been distinguished by low population density is a fact. Alas and ah, features of geography and climate. And I don’t remember that this region was strong in agriculture, the same Kiev land produced much more grain and other things. Once again - it’s specifically about the land, about the principality, and not specifically about the city or cities. As a city of Novgorod with its suburbs, it was just very strong thanks to trade routes, but nothing more.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 24 May 2020 14: 02 New
            -3
            Quote: arturpraetor
            We do not agree with your biased attitude towards Grushevsky’s work. What is the difference, what is it called there, if the material has a certain value?

            "mein kampf" also has its own, specific , "value"
            Quote: arturpraetor
            Have you read it at all, or "did not read it, but I condemn it"?

            To condemn Hitler, you have to read "Mein Kampf"?

            Or, enough, after all, real affairs?
            Quote: arturpraetor
            I think that cling to the names, having no idea what is specifically described in the material - is somewhat biased.

            Your right.

            And my right is to consider such a name antiscientific and antiistrric, no matter what and whoever "argues" it.
            And yes
            Quote: arturpraetor
            As practice shows, many historians too.
            consider like me.
            Quote: arturpraetor
            What is more developed agriculture

            Venice, Genoa, practically did not have a farm, but were rich.
            1. arturpraetor
              24 May 2020 14: 38 New
              +1
              Is Grushevsky Hitler? Arrived ...
              Quote: Olgovich
              consider like me.

              Many historians ignore the title of the work, and look at its content. And the content is far from Mein Kampf. Especially if we discard the author's assessments and focus on the facts cited - for with the facts, Grushevsky is just doing well, he used many sources, therefore Russian historians often refer to him when it is justified. Which, again, does not mean that because of this it is necessary to agree with Hrushevsky's assessments, which are just a completely different conversation.

              But somehow it seems to me that you don't give a damn about it anyway. Once Grushevsky, once Ukraine-Rus - then immediately into the furnace. So I can be called Hitler. And historians too. We write "Mein Kapf", and not about the personal tastes of individual people, for whom a multivolume work is reduced to an unpleasant name.
              Quote: Olgovich
              Hmm ....
              vice versa: the milder the climate, the larger the population,

              Have you learned to distort the Operator? The above quote lists the reasons why the Galicia-Volyn land can be stronger than Novgorod in terms of economy. Both climate and population are reasons. I did not conclude that if the population is larger, the climate is milder.
              Quote: Olgovich
              Venice, Genoa, practically did not have a farm, but were rich.

              Like cities, like trade republics. While controlling the most lively trade of all time, the Mediterranean. And even this did not make them stronger than states with a large population and developed agriculture. In terms of trade - yes, definitely stronger. In terms of the economy in general - alas, no. Once again - distinguish cities и principalities. In cities, agricultural for self-sufficiency and for export is not particularly busy, and agricultural is the basis of the economy of any medieval state, without it the economy itself becomes unstable, and does not have such a development potential. And, alas and ah, just here lies the weakness of the Novgorod principality, and why other principalities can be richer and more economically developed than it, without having such a status as a capital city.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 24 May 2020 15: 00 New
                -1
                Quote: arturpraetor
                . Once Grushevsky, once Ukraine-Russia-means immediately into the furnace.

                , in general, exactly so. For according to his affairsHe’s a Nazi and a bastard.

                The primary sources existed and exist without him and outside him.

                Quote: arturpraetor
                ak and I can be called Hitler... And historians too. We write "Mine Kapf", and not an ode to the personal tastes of individuals, for whom a multivolume labor comes down to an unpleasant name.


                1. There is no reason, therefore, why on earth?
                2. Multivolume "work" is reduced to a single thought - to substantiate the existence of something that was not, the so-called. "Ukraine-Russia"
                Quote: arturpraetor
                Have you learned to distort the Operator?

                I made a mistake and removed this from the comment.
                Quote: arturpraetor
                In terms of trade - Yesdefinitely stronger. In terms of economics in general - Unfortunately no.

                trade is .... not an economy? belay
                Quote: arturpraetor
                And even this did not make them stronger than states with a large population and developed agriculture.

                did.

                Their trade economics made them rich and, accordingly, strong
                Quote: arturpraetor
                In cities, agricultural for self-sufficiency and for export are not particularly busy

                Cities were engaged in much more profitable labor, crafts and trade.
                1. arturpraetor
                  24 May 2020 15: 28 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  The primary sources existed and exist without him and outside him.

                  But the part of Grushevsky’s work, where he brings them together, still cannot be used, since Grushevsky did this? As they say - you checkers, or go?
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  trade is .... not an economy?

                  Trade is only part of the economy. I speak as a person who ate a dog while studying the issues of social economics, economics and social politics. The state’s economy, which is based solely on trade, is unstable, highly dependent on external factors, and will inevitably be inferior to states with complex economies, even if for some year the merchant state has more voiced coins in the treasury. Novgorod was not based solely on trade, but it still prevailed. I repeat - this does not mean that Novgorod was poor, but, let’s say so - the ceiling, its development opportunities were less. Actually, he quickly reached and held it.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Their trade economics made them rich and, accordingly, strong

                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Cities were engaged in much more profitable labor, crafts and trade.

                  And again, everything depends on trade, which is only part of the economy, but not the whole economy.

                  However, this is not even important. I will explain it as simple as possible.

                  There is a Novgorod principality. It has highly developed craft and trade, but due to the climate and local characteristics, crafts are moderately developed, and agriculture is also not very successful. The main force is the capital city. The population is relatively small. Trade is predominantly transit.
                  There is a certain principality of N, both the Southwest and Kiev are suitable here. Maybe someone else, but for the rest of the principality I did not dig so deeply, and therefore I can not presume to say it - although it seems like the Vladimir-Suzdal principality is still suitable. He has many cities, both large and medium. The climate is good, land resources - heaps, labor, too. Craft is developed, agricultural is developed in many areas, crafts are developed in many areas, trade is not only transit, but also export, and products from all directions - handicraft, agricultural, and commercial.

                  And now, attention, experts, the question is - which of the two principalities has a more developed, diverse economy? Who has more development potential? Can the first princedom under any circumstances be richer than the second, only on craft, furs and trade alone? This is despite the fact that the second principality also has these directions, albeit somewhat less developed and profitable.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 24 May 2020 19: 26 New
                    +1
                    Quote: arturpraetor
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    The primary sources existed and exist without him and outside him.

                    But the part of Grushevsky’s work, where he brings them together, still cannot be used, since Grushevsky did this? As they say - you checkers, or go?
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    trade is .... not an economy?

                    Trade is only part of the economy. I speak as a person who ate a dog while studying the issues of social economics, economics and social politics. The state’s economy, which is based solely on trade, is unstable, highly dependent on external factors, and will inevitably be inferior to states with complex economies, even if for some year the merchant state has more voiced coins in the treasury. Novgorod was not based solely on trade, but it still prevailed. I repeat - this does not mean that Novgorod was poor, but, let’s say so - the ceiling, its development opportunities were less. Actually, he quickly reached and held it.
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Their trade economics made them rich and, accordingly, strong

                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Cities were engaged in much more profitable labor, crafts and trade.

                    And again, everything depends on trade, which is only part of the economy, but not the whole economy.

                    However, this is not even important. I will explain it as simple as possible.

                    There is a Novgorod principality. It has highly developed craft and trade, but due to the climate and local characteristics, crafts are moderately developed, and agriculture is also not very successful. The main force is the capital city. The population is relatively small. Trade is predominantly transit.
                    There is a certain principality of N, both the Southwest and Kiev are suitable here. Maybe someone else, but for the rest of the principality I did not dig so deeply, and therefore I can not presume to say it - although it seems like the Vladimir-Suzdal principality is still suitable. He has many cities, both large and medium. The climate is good, land resources - heaps, labor, too. Craft is developed, agricultural is developed in many areas, crafts are developed in many areas, trade is not only transit, but also export, and products from all directions - handicraft, agricultural, and commercial.

                    And now, attention, experts, the question is - which of the two principalities has a more developed, diverse economy? Who has more development potential? Can the first princedom under any circumstances be richer than the second, only on craft, furs and trade alone? This is despite the fact that the second principality also has these directions, albeit somewhat less developed and profitable.


                    Dear Artem!

                    We will not argue.

                    Vasha-interesting, look forward to continuing and- good luck! hi
                2. Red Dragon
                  Red Dragon 24 May 2020 20: 06 New
                  0
                  Why Grushevsky Nazi and bastard? Who are you to give such marks? God? belay
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 24 May 2020 20: 14 New
                    -1
                    Quote: Red Dragon
                    Why Grushevsky Nazi and bastard? Who are you to give such marks? God?

                    And who are you to ask .... who am I? belay lol

                    Really ... OH ?! lol

                    And Grushevsky- nazi and bastard- by his affairs .
                    1. Red Dragon
                      Red Dragon 24 May 2020 20: 21 New
                      0
                      So then point out that in my (that is, yours) modest or not modest opinion, Grushevsky is this and that. And only so. wink
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 25 May 2020 08: 26 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Red Dragon
                        So then indicate, And only so.

                        Your advice is to advice, there too! yes
  3. Fat
    Fat 23 May 2020 07: 27 New
    +3
    It is necessary to re-read, think .... The thought is long. this ... As if ... Once we have already left the forest .....
  4. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 23 May 2020 07: 49 New
    +5
    Very interesting! Thank Artyom
    1. arturpraetor
      23 May 2020 15: 09 New
      +4
      You are always welcome, dear colleague. hi Ahead of another 14 articles from this series. Initially, there were 37 - but truncated ones, on the advice of the editorial staff, I brought them down to more voluminous ones. The current article was originally divided into two parts, and there was no list of primary sources.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 May 2020 19: 27 New
        +3
        14 goodies! Mmmm !!!!!!!
        "And why am I so in love with you" !!!!
        1. arturpraetor
          23 May 2020 19: 31 New
          +2
          There then two more articles will be off topic, about the states of the steppes and a detailed list of reasons why the Commonwealth has become like this, and how it was specifically bent at the end, taking into account all factors, and not just gentry liberties and Liberum Veto. In short, somehow there has accumulated materials ...)
        2. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 23 May 2020 20: 00 New
          +3
          "Patamuchta, gladiolus!" laughing
  5. knn54
    knn54 23 May 2020 08: 01 New
    +4
    -All of them were crucified by order of the Ostrogoth King Vitimir, who defeated God.
    The king of the Getae was VENITAR (grandson of Germanarikh) who. DECEPTED and then crucified the king of God (Bus of the Beloyar clan) together with his son and 70 chiefs who came to negotiate with the Goths. The leader of the Huns Balamber (some believe that it was the Slavic Bolorev, "from the Veles book" - why did the Hun leader need to avenge the Slavic leader), "not tolerating willfulness, led the troops against the Goths, defeated them, and Venitar himself died in this battle ". This story is told by Jordan,
    This "revenge" is also mentioned in "The Lay of Igor's Host" and the Veles book.
    Academician A. A. Shakhmatov: "The Slavs and the Antes are two branches of a once united tribe. The Antes are the eastern part of this disintegrated tribe. Everything that we know about them leads to their recognition as Eastern Slavs, therefore, the ancestors of the Russians."
    Academician N.S. Derzhavin wrote: "Antas are not only the ancestors of the Eastern Slavs, but also the creators of their entire culture."
    Jordan: "Coming from the same root, they now have three names: Vendians, Antes, Slovins. Although their names are now changing depending on different tribes and localities, however, they are mainly called Slopes and Antes." It defines the area of ​​their settlement from the river. Sava to the Dnieper ".
    He (and a number of other historians) believes that the Sklavins and Antes originated from the Wends (ancestors of the Western Slavs). The Slavs are known under the name "Sklaviny" in the Danube region, on the borders with Byzantium, where they advanced relatively late.
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 23 May 2020 11: 50 New
      +3
      Quote: knn54
      in "The Lay of Igor's Regiment" and the Veles book.

      These two works cannot stand side by side, since one is a literary monument of the XII century, and the second is a fake, at the very end, of the end of the XIX, and, most likely, of the first half of the XX century, that is, it can be a source of exclusively information about his painful fantasies the author.
      Tell me, what did you mean when you mentioned the mention of some kind of "revenge" in "The Lay of Igor's Host"? I know this piece quite well, but I cannot understand what you mean.
      And forget about Velesov's book. In it, the reliability is no more than in the "protocols of the Elders of Zion," that is, there is none at all. Not a drop.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 23 May 2020 18: 54 New
        +2
        Tell me, what did you mean when you mentioned the mention of some kind of "revenge" in "The Lay of Igor's Host"?

        Fishery.
        Gothic virgins praise Busovo time

        Bus = God bless Rybakov
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 23 May 2020 20: 16 New
          +4
          Quote: Engineer
          Bus = God bless Rybakov

          Thank you. hi
          When did this God-Bus with the Goths fight? Something I have a time gap of about seven hundred years with the campaign of Igor Svyatoslavich - not much less than from this campaign to our time. smile
          This year the Gothic red virgins have risen to the blue sea, ringing Russian gold, Busovo’s time is being sung, they are cherishing revenge for Sharokan. And we, squad, greed for joy.

          Revenge for Sharukan, this, of course, was the capture of Sharukan by Svyatoslav Yaroslavich, a hundred years before Igor, there is something to talk about - the direct descendants of both of them were fighting.
          What kind of revenge of the Huns for God in the "Word ..." was said by knn54 (Nicholas) is still not clear.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 23 May 2020 22: 01 New
            +3
            Something I have a time gap of about seven hundred years with the campaign of Igor Svyatoslavich - not much less than from this campaign to our time.

            Academician Rybakov was not embarrassed by this. His "legacy" has been overcome for decades.
            What kind of revenge of the Huns for God in the "Word ..." was said by knn54 (Nicholas) is still not clear.

            Of course it’s not clear. laughing First Rybakov "interprets" the Word. And then supporters of the Veles book "interpret" Rybakov
    2. arturpraetor
      23 May 2020 15: 14 New
      +4
      Thank you for completing the story of God. hi It seems that he was thoroughly "mocked" by the method of a damaged phone, since during a cursory search through my sources I came across 4-5 different versions of what happened. This despite the fact that the sources, as I understand it, are somewhat fewer ...)
      Quote: knn54
      Slavs and antes are two branches of the once united tribe. Anty is the eastern part of this disintegrated tribe. Everything that we know about them leads to their recognition by the Eastern Slavs, therefore, the ancestors of the Russians

      I decided not to touch on the topic of Ants very closely, since it is very ... Sracheobrazuyuschaya. I myself am inclined precisely to the fact that the ant-sklavins are essentially two names of the same phenomenon, especially since they are known from Byzantine sources, and the Byzantines were very inventive in this regard, generating an additional number of names of tribes and peoples . But who knows how it really was - and I already have a lot of controversial statements in the framework of the article request
    3. Engineer
      Engineer 23 May 2020 18: 53 New
      +2
      The author is most likely right. Vitimir-Vinitariy seems to be the same
      Vinit Aryan. Arja Gothic plow, gut
      Vitimir is mentioned at Ammianus in the tale of synchronous events.
      Here is the text of Jordan
      Amal Vinitarius kept all the signs of his rule 609. Imitating the valor of his grandfather Vultulf, he, although he was lower than Germanarchus by happiness and fortune, bitterly endured submission to the Huns. Gradually freeing himself from their power and trying to show his strength, he moved the army within the Ants 246 and, when he entered there, he was defeated in the first battle, but later began to act more decisively and crucified their God 610 with his sons and seventy by the elders for intimidation, {611} so that the bodies of the crucified would double the fear of the conquered 247.
  6. lucul
    lucul 23 May 2020 08: 20 New
    -4
    Despite the fact that the names are given in Russian, a significant part of these materials is written in the Ukrainian language, and among the historians are Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Poles and one Kazakh.

    No, of course I respect the work of the author, who was able to shovel this Ukrainian remake, but put the ancestral home of the Slavs Volyn))).
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 May 2020 09: 43 New
      +3
      Why not! Let me remind you which of the scientists at one time gave an interesting thesis: “Historians of the Poles drown the beginning of German culture in the waters of the Elbe, their German colleagues - Slavs in the swamps of Pripyat!
      Chernihiv culture is controversial, but it has supporters and opponents !!! Here, the fact of pulling a blanket between Poland, Ukraine, Belarus and Russia is interesting in itself. Moreover, everyone objectively recognizes the primacy of Great Moravia.
      Most of the sources given by Artem are quite serious material, which does not find understanding in modern Ukraine! Alas, they prefer more radical versions of events, even in schools.
      If it is thesis, the significance of the Galician-Volyn Rus for the Eastern Slavs is significant, but the history is inexorable. Southwest Russia started first and lost !!!
      Regards, Vlad!
      1. lucul
        lucul 23 May 2020 09: 49 New
        -1
        Why not!

        I explain.
        The entire culture of the Slavs is a culture of plains and forests - in its absolute and purest form.
        Volyn - there is a lot from the culture of the mountains (customs, etc.), we can say that the Galicians have a strong mountain mentality. And if Volyn was the ancestral home of the Slavs, then this mountain culture would be present in all Slavs. But she is not .... that's right, offhand.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 May 2020 09: 52 New
          +2
          Mountain customs could be acquired. For example, from the Wallachians. By the way, this version is confirmed by PVL.
          Yours!
          1. lucul
            lucul 23 May 2020 10: 00 New
            -4
            Mountain customs could be acquired. For example, from the Wallachians.

            Slavs avoided mountains, steppes, deserts. Only forests, forests, and again forests. Some tribes settled in Volyn - only because of the readily available salt reserves - an extremely strategic product in the absence of refrigerators.
            Do you remember how and with what the expansion of the people begins? For example, during Greek colonization, all colonies, in the image and likeness of the Greek cities. The cradle of civilization (mentality) does not change over time, it can only be destroyed. And what kind of cradle of the Slavs is this (Volhynia), if the mountain tribes could easily modify it? )))
            These versions do not stand up to criticism ...
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 May 2020 10: 02 New
              +3
              Then give a description of your understanding of the mountain customs of Galicia-Volyn Rus, with examples!
              1. lucul
                lucul 23 May 2020 10: 05 New
                -3
                Then give a description of your understanding of the mountain customs of Galicia-Volyn Rus, with examples!

                Yes, you compare the traditional clothes of Poles and Russians with Galicians.
          2. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 23 May 2020 11: 42 New
            +3
            Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Mountain customs could be acquired. For example, from the Wallachians. By the way, this version is confirmed by PVL.
            Yours!

            It is believed in the West that the Dacians and Wallachians ousted the Slavs from the Balkans and the territory of modern Romania
        2. Operator
          Operator 23 May 2020 10: 26 New
          +3
          Do not confuse Volyn (the Ukrainian part of Polesie) with Chervlenoy Rus (Galicia) and, especially, Carpathian Rus.
        3. arturpraetor
          23 May 2020 15: 17 New
          +5
          Quote: lucul
          Volyn - there is a lot from the culture of the mountains (customs, etc.), we can say that the Galicians have a strong mountain mentality.

          You make a huge mistake by equating the mountain Subcarpathian region (Galicia) and the Polessye Volhynia.
    2. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 23 May 2020 11: 40 New
      +2
      Quote: lucul

      No, of course I respect the work of the author, who was able to shovel this Ukrainian remake, but put the ancestral home of the Slavs Volyn))).

      The bulk of Western historians are inclined to the Balkan and Carpathian origin of the Slavs.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 May 2020 12: 15 New
        +4
        Quote: Krasnodar
        Quote: lucul

        No, of course I respect the work of the author, who was able to shovel this Ukrainian remake, but put the ancestral home of the Slavs Volyn))).

        The bulk of Western historians are inclined to the Balkan and Carpathian origin of the Slavs.

        I will clarify the bulk of historians who are related to the western and southern branches of the Slavs. The Poles of the protocols consider Pripyat a whitewash of the Slavic ethnos, the Ukrainians - Chernyakhov culture, etc. The scientific world of the Slavs row each into its own limits.
        My opinion is the general misfortune of the descendants of the Slavs - this is an insufficient number of archaeological artifacts! The people are invisible !!!
        Despite the vastness of archaeological research, precise localization does not work! From here and distorting false historians with their "convincing" versions!
        Sincerely, Vlad !!!
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 23 May 2020 12: 39 New
          +1
          No, I read about the Balkan and Carpathian origin of the Slavs among the Anglo-Saxons and Jews. What they relied on - did not delve into. They also believe that from the Balkans the bulk of the Slavs were supplanted by the ancestors of the current Romanians.
    3. arturpraetor
      23 May 2020 15: 15 New
      +4
      Volhynia is not the ancestral home of the Slavs, but only a small part of it. According to the most popular theory among historians today. No more - but no less. Do not try to find in the article what is not there. And this theory is by no means Ukrainian. It’s just, you know, that history doesn’t give a damn about which states these or other territories now belong to.
      1. lucul
        lucul 23 May 2020 16: 06 New
        -2
        Volhynia is not the ancestral home of the Slavs, but only a small part of it. According to the most popular theory among historians today.

        Then you see what the matter is - the cradle of civilization cannot be a passage yard, but Volyn is it.
        I will explain. When historians look at a map of the world, it is necessary to look not only at the political map, but sometimes it is necessary to look at the physical. And according to her, both Volyn and Galicia are located exactly in the entrance courtyard. Any invasion of nomads, from the East, from the steppe, to Western Europe rested in the Carpathians, they could be circumvented from the south, to the Balkans, they could be circumvented from the north. Just at this gate between the Carpathians and Polesie, where Volyn is located. It’s now, after the reclamation, the Poleskie swamps are passable, but earlier it was a completely impassable area for the troops, and there was a decent hook to get around them. And if we hide the cradle of civilization (from tearing it apart), then it is BEYOND Polesie, in the north, and not before, in the entrance courtyard, where entire nations migrate every 50-100 years ....
        1. arturpraetor
          23 May 2020 16: 20 New
          +4
          Any invasion of nomads from the steppe to Western Europe rested in the Carpathians, they could be circumvented from the south, to the Balkans, they could be circumvented from the north. Just at this gate between the Carpathians and Polesie, where Volyn is located

          But the nomads never lingered in those places, and moved on. Including even such not the most nomadic nomads as the Goths, who just migrated through Volyn to the south. All these are short episodes, after which it was possible to recover quite quickly and easily, especially if the ancestral home was not reduced to Volyn alone.

          And yet, yes, the main pressure of the nomads went through the present Subcarpathian region, along the Dniester and into the mountains. And Volyn is located to the north. It is necessary to distinguish between these two territories.
          Quote: lucul
          It’s now, after land reclamation, the Poleskie swamps are passable, but earlier it was a completely impassable area for the troops.

          Here is one misfortune - just from Volhynia, through modern Brest (then Berestye) to the north and northeast there were already roads for invasion, not to mention the exit to the Western Bug, on which you could go anywhere, and from which to The Goths came to Volhynia. So the degree of protection of the territory beyond Polesie is not so great.
          Quote: lucul
          And if you already hide the cradle of civilization (from tearing away), then just FOR Polesye

          But modern historians disagree with you. I repeat, about the specified area as the ancestral home of the Slavs - the theory is not mine, and I have met it most often - which means that the majority is now inclined towards it. This does not turn the theory into the ultimate truth, but it also does not allow it to be considered erroneous due to several reservations. On the contrary, I read very little from modern historians about the territories beyond Polesie as an ancestral home. Most often - only as part of the common "great ancestral home" of the Slavs between the Vistula and the Dnieper.
  7. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 23 May 2020 09: 17 New
    +4
    Oh, Artem hi ... You are embarking on such a slippery path, because the history of "science" is so contradictory that I personally already quietly adhere to my point of view and do not enter into polemics with other comrades who adhere to the same points of view, be it an official tale, or alternatives, or Annunaki with Sumerians ... lol
    And the paradox is that to some extent everyone is right! yes request The adherent of each movement can find evidence of his innocence. Someone gives evidence of the notion of the Tatar-Mongol yoke, someone gives evidence of its existence, someone says that the same Kievan Rus is nonsense, someone the other way around ...
    It will be interesting to read your point of view, I look forward to continuing smile hi
    1. arturpraetor
      23 May 2020 15: 22 New
      +5
      Quote: Rurikovich
      And the paradox is that to some extent everyone is right! The adherent of each movement can find evidence of his innocence. Someone gives evidence of the notion of the Tatar-Mongol yoke, someone gives evidence of its existence, someone says that the same Kievan Rus is nonsense, someone the other way around ...

      Therefore, I devoted a lot of material to the introduction, trying to convey a simple idea that
      - the material does not have the character of truth in the last resort, but is only an attempt to systematize and unify the general history of South-West Russia;
      - everyone has the right to independently evaluate these or other events, since it is now difficult to achieve a clear understanding of what exactly was there;
      - but at the same time it is advisable to possess factual information before giving estimates.
      No more - but no less. The list of sources (by the way, incomplete) resulted only for the conviction of his words, for so many things may be new to the average reader, and proof is needed that I do not take information from heaven. Here, on a neighboring site, for example, just recently a fantasy was announced of campaigns in Silesia and the Czech Republic by Daniil Galitsky and participation in the war for the Austrian inheritance. Although this is a fact known from a bunch of sources, it is simply not very well known to a wide circle of readers.
  8. Operator
    Operator 23 May 2020 09: 34 New
    -2
    The author - the first ugrofinans crossed the Ural Range from Asia 3500 years ago, and the ancestors of the Aryan Slavs appeared in Europe in the Balkans, crossing the future Bosphorus and Dardanelles along the land isthmus then, 12000 years ago. As the glacier retreated and the tundra was replaced by a forest-steppe 9000 years ago, the arias reached the Karelian Isthmus, 7000 years ago - to the Urals and the White Sea. In the process of their advance to the north, the Aryans were the first to settle in the Black Sea steppes and the Crimea, the Carpathians, the Dnieper and the Baltic

    In the western direction, the Aryans were the first settlers in the territory of the future Czech Republic, Slovakia and East Germany.

    The division of the Aryans into western, eastern and southern (Black Sea) occurred 6000 years ago. The southern ones migrated to Asia, the western and eastern ones became the ancestors of the Slavs, while the eastern ones took part in the formation of the small mestizo tribes of the "Ugro-Finnish" tribes of the Balts, Komi, Permians, Udmurts and other little things, which settled after the migration of pure-blooded Ugriches on the periphery of Eastern Europe to places with difficult natural and climatic conditions.

    The center of resettlement of most of the Aryans - the future Slavs (the place with the highest density of the Aryan population) 3000 years ago was the region of the Carpathians - Dnieper - Vistula - Odra - Nysa - Sudeten. It was from him at the beginning of our era that they began to migrate to the south of Europe (regions of Venice, the future Yugoslavia, Hungary, Austria, Bulgaria), as well as (secondly) to the east (regions of the Volga and Kama).
  9. Operator
    Operator 23 May 2020 10: 23 New
    0
    Quote: lucul
    Slavs avoided the mountains

    Yes, yes: the first inhabitants of the postglacial Carpathians, Sudeten and the Eastern Alps were the ancestors of the Slavs - still a quarter of the inhabitants of Austria are descendants of the Slavs assimilated by the Germans in the middle of the first millennium AD.
  10. Hyperborean
    Hyperborean 23 May 2020 10: 54 New
    +6
    I already thought that this article would be another ode about a super ethos, devoid of any factual and materialistic base, built on mere fiction and fantasy tales. But no .., I was mistaken. Quite soberly and meaningfully written.
    1. arturpraetor
      23 May 2020 15: 27 New
      +3
      Thank you hi No, I could, of course, write from the arrogant position of truth in the last resort ... But I don’t want something laughing Although, I will tell you a secret that on this topic I do have certain tendencies towards such manifestations. Simply by virtue of the fact that I studied the topic deeply enough, and a year ago I realized how negligibly little most of those who, as a rule, undertake to make judgments about it know about it. The example of the "Uniate" state of the Romanovichs is one of the most striking manifestations of this militant ignorance. However, I have already indicated in the article about admirers and neglectors ...
  11. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 23 May 2020 11: 00 New
    +3
    Glad to welcome colleagues. smile hi
    Artem, thank you for the material, in a sense, controversial, but certainly interesting and, without a doubt, firmly argued.
    If I correctly understood the semantic message of this article, you think that it was Volyn with its environs, being the ancestral home of the Slavs, that was also the most developed Slavic territory in all senses, that is, it advanced further in the process of state building beyond the rest. In addition, it turns out that it was in this region that the Slavs were least affected by their neighbors, that is, the process of folding the state took place almost on a purely Slavic substrate and went so far that even within the framework of the state of Rurikovich in Volyn and Galicia (in Chervona Rus) a strong and organized boyar, who was not afraid to regularly stand in opposition to the princes-Rurikovich, who remained for them the traitors, strangers, and thereby determining the uniqueness of the political alignment in this territory up to ... probably until the time of Daniil Galitsky?
    From this point of view, I did not look at Volyn, and such a design would have seemed quite acceptable to me if it had not come into direct conflict with the PVL, which clearly states that the development leaders among the Eastern Slavs during the formation of the first states and, in fact, the cornerstone a stone of Slavic statehood was a clearing on the Dnieper.
    So, I also wanted to say about Novgorod.
    The first is Novgorod Slovenia and Krivichi - representatives of the Western Slavs, not the Eastern. Not so long ago, archaeologists and linguists came to this conclusion independently of each other.
    The second - between Novgorod and Galich, despite the striking similarities in terms of the presence of a strong chamber and traditions of democracy, there are still significant differences, the most important of which is the nature of this independence, the independence of the local oligarchy. The power of the Galician boyars, their strength and wealth, was based on their land holdings in the first place, and on trade only in the second. In Novgorod, on the contrary, trade gave the lion's share of income. Therefore, the Galichs were controlled by the boyars, first of all, by the landowners, and then by the merchants, and Novgorod, on the contrary, by the merchants, and then by the landowners. I think that this is precisely the reason why Galich did not become a republic and, despite the stubborn, vivid and dramatic struggle that he waged for his independence from princely power, he ended up fighting this quickly enough, in for a hundred years, lost.
    Concerning the Bolshevik princes.
    I don’t think one can put an end to the dispute about their origin. It is quite possible that these were the Rurik from the Chernigov Olgovichi. There is a pre-revolutionary work by RV Zotov "On the Chernigov princes according to the Lyubertsy list", he considers the Bolokhovites to be Ol'govichi and his argumentation, as it seems to me, is stronger than what modern researchers say, in particular, Mayorov. But that's my opinion. smile
    I look forward to continuing, thanks again. I think the most interesting is ahead. smile
    1. arturpraetor
      23 May 2020 15: 45 New
      +6
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      If I correctly understood the semantic message of this article

      Nuuu ... Not really. I started about the ancestral home of the Slavs to just start from afar and consider the basis of future events (and only with a wide coverage of events can you better understand what has happened, otherwise it will be taken out of context). Initially, this was not intended to be done at all. But then a number of details began to be seen that fit well into future developments and events. Volhynia (namely, it is the root of the Romanovich state) in my eyes looks like one of the indigenous territories of the Slavs (I emphasize - only one of them), where, long before the Rurikovichs, the Slavs lived, developed the territory, developed society .... Therefore, within Russia, South- As a result, the West turned out to be one of the most densely populated, developed, and with its own tendencies in the development of society, which are in many ways ahead of other parts of Russia. Well, a rich region, not without it. As said more than once in the comments - no more, but no less. The fact that Volyn is the core of any Slavic statehood and Russia in principle, I did not say, at best, it acted as the core of the Antsky Union, which at the time of Rurik's arrival had already disintegrated.
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      From this point of view, I did not look at Volyn, and such a design would have seemed quite acceptable to me if it had not come into direct conflict with the PVL, which clearly states that the development leaders among the Eastern Slavs during the formation of the first states and, in fact, the cornerstone a stone of Slavic statehood was a clearing on the Dnieper.

      Here I may seem like a bolt that does not respect the primary sources, but I will never believe uncompromisingly PVL in such matters. Why should I do this, if I have repeatedly faced with the fact that the annals were written under a certain political background, and the stump is clear the center of everything and everything in Russia in that case should be its capital, i.e. Dnieper with Kiev? smile However, I do not state the opposite. Here, most likely, it makes sense to talk about the foci of development that have manifested themselves most of all, and gradually spread their fire to the surrounding territories. Such a center, of course, was Kiev. Another similar outbreak to the north was Novgorod. But Volyn is also a hotbed - in something less, in something more than the other two cities. With all this, all the foci were closely connected, which will be indicated more than once in the future.

      As for economic and socio-political development, alas, Volyn and Subcarpathia in terms of the total aggregate of information still seem richer than Kiev, or at least more equal. To call Volhynia and Subcarpathia weaker does not turn their tongue. With less important and valuable trade routes - perhaps, but collectively - no way. In terms of social policy, any serious development of Kiev after the outbreak of strife was no longer discussed - the fate of the challenge prize did not contribute to these matters, while both the Subcarpathian region and Volyn continued to go through their processes, because of which since Kormilichichi, and Romanovich, and a single principality appeared. Even Novgorod and Vladimir-Suzdal by the XNUMXth century look more socially and politically developed than Kiev.
      The second - between Novgorod and Galich, despite the striking similarities in terms of the presence of a strong chamber and traditions of the rule of law, there are still significant differences

      So I did not put an equal sign between them. Very similar, yes - but not twin brothers, it just doesn't happen that way.
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      The power of the Galician boyars, their strength and wealth, was based on their land holdings in the first place, and on trade only in the second.

      Well, I wouldn’t say that trade has nothing to do with it ... In the South-West, so to speak, there was a balanced economy. It is difficult to single out one thing as of paramount importance, except for the salt mines, which made huge profits. The boyars much rose from what, the principalities were strong precisely because of the versatility of their economy. Which, of course, due to natural reasons, was not observed in Novgorod. Therefore, in particular, I consider the South-West to be more economically developed.
  12. Peter is not the first
    Peter is not the first 23 May 2020 11: 55 New
    +3
    The article is interesting, soft, there is room for doubt and controversy. It is much better perceived than the articles in which categorically declared about the "siege technology, weapons and traditions" of the Slavic peoples.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 May 2020 12: 30 New
      +5
      Dear Peter, the authors are different and have a different approach !!! Artyom, we have not been pleased with our work for a long time, so even I described myself to my shame !!! Eduard Vyashenko is one of the strongest specialists of the era of the great migration of peoples !!! So that he can allow to chop off the shoulders, the heads of unreasonable students !!! Associate professor, candidate of historical sciences, what to take professional deformation !!! winked
      Vyacheslav Olegovich - also periodically includes professors !!! lol
      There’s nothing for years to get used to !!!
      Me too To be honest, it’s easier to read Mikhail, Andrey, Valery, Timur and Artem with the East Wind, but who said that the granite of history will be easy !!! Most, Most and Again Most Importantly Our Authors always participate in the forum on their articles !!! And this is the highest class !!!
    2. arturpraetor
      23 May 2020 15: 47 New
      +3
      It is difficult to say something categorically when the sources of information are contradictory, and very incomplete. No, I could, but I don't want laughing Yes, and the whole legend will develop further exclusively in the key "it could have been, if you compose a single, whole picture", "so the author thinks", and not "it was so, I swear by my mother!" wassat
  13. Engineer
    Engineer 23 May 2020 16: 18 New
    +3
    The seed is interesting, but so far more at the level of promises)
    By the way, Galicia-Volyn Rus is the only alternative in my case that was not inspired from the outside. Himself not a fan of this thing, but it’s really very interesting there
    DG principality instead of ON.
    Daniil of Galicia Elector of Galicia
    1. arturpraetor
      23 May 2020 16: 32 New
      +4
      GVK has a very close history with Lithuania in general. At some point there even Shvarn Danilovich ON rules smile Yes, and why hide - I, as it were, an AI specialist, began to "light up" the topic of the GVK a year ago in preparation for AI, even this cycle was written in preparation for the publication of AI on the Romanovich state. And the development of Russian-Lithuanian relations in this case turns out .... Very curious. The Poles, of course, will not even have to dream of the Rzeczpospolita from real life, but that’s the point - as if they themselves were not registered as junior partners in the union laughing
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 23 May 2020 16: 42 New
        +3
        The correct WRC and L and an alternative to Moscow. I thought something like this
        1. arturpraetor
          23 May 2020 18: 11 New
          +3
          The kingdom of Russia is generally more correct, if we deduce everything from the Romanovichs. But it is not a fact that it would have survived over time - Russia, too, did not immediately become Russia smile In any case, it turns out the second center of power in Russia, and stronger than the real ON. And more centralized. With deep digging into the topic, sometimes completely unexpected consequences from a similar fork emerge there. True, not everything is positive for everyone, but even so ...
  14. Operator
    Operator 23 May 2020 16: 46 New
    -5
    Quote: arturpraetor
    In the Southwest, so to speak, there was a balanced economy

    Volyn had a stagnant economy. The peripheral Slavic tribes had advanced development - wargs in the Baltic states, Slovene in Ladoga region, glade in the Dnieper region, sorbians and white Croats in the Danube. Development was due to developed foreign economic relations, as now.

    Volhynia and the entire woodland / mountainous area around it acted as a center for the preservation of Slavic identity - no more, but no less. Now the center for the preservation of Slavic identity has moved east to the Central Black Earth region of Russia (Voronezh, Belgorod, Lipetsk and Orel regions), where the concentration of carriers of the ancestral haplogroup R1a reaches 100%, no less than twice that of any other region of Eurasia.

    This reflects the geographical protection of the Central Black Earth Region from assimilation processes in ethnic and cultural terms.
    1. arturpraetor
      23 May 2020 18: 05 New
      +5
      Volyn had a stagnant economy.

      "Where are the proofs, Billy? We need proofs!" Your statement is contrary to historical research and facts.
      1. Operator
        Operator 23 May 2020 18: 25 New
        -4
        But it corresponds to reality - the inhabitants of Volyn are still backward rogues laughing
        1. arturpraetor
          23 May 2020 18: 33 New
          +6
          To pull modern realities into events that are not even centuries old - millennia ago, showing even neglect on the basis of nationality - this is public masturbation. I’ll ask you not to do this, decent people have gathered here.

          And so - you DO NOT KNOW the materiel. If you even have a stagnation region in Transcarpathia at that time - it is in the Dniester Valley, where there is excellent land and a breakthrough of water resources, land that, as part of Poland, has long been considered a very profitable region, then there is nothing for us to talk about. For I own the materiel, and you - only wet fantasies on the topic.
          1. Operator
            Operator 23 May 2020 19: 35 New
            -9
            Yes, yes, yes: my "wet fantasies" are based on the geographical location of Rome, Constantinople, Novgorod, Venice, London, Petersburg, Antwerp, etc., and yours are based on proofs.

            But you still managed to make my day your statements about the insignificance of Kiev and Novgorod of the first millennium A.D. in comparison with Vladimir-Volynsky, Rivne, Lutsk and other places of Volyn laughing
            1. arturpraetor
              23 May 2020 19: 48 New
              +6
              Oh, misplacing other people's words laughing Yeah, you won’t cook porridge with you. However, this has long been clear

              For those who are not clear that the comrade is slightly toyvo, well, toyvo - read at least Kripyakevich. There, about the economy of the South-West, everything is very general, but it is painted well. One can understand how "stagnant" the region's economy was. It is the region, not individual cities. And then agriculture, it turns out, does not depend on climatic, land and water conditions, but on whose city is cooler.

              And yes, if you measure by city, then the comrade is right. One trouble - cities are not everything, far from all. And the economy is not limited to trade. And here, the whole essence of my claims lies that Southwest Russia could be largely developed economically. Yes, there did not immediately appear a bunch of trade routes, with which then the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth nourished rather sickly. And the big cities there didn’t appear right away either — only by the middle of the XNUMXth century Galich was drawn as a really big city. But if everything was limited exclusively to this ...
  15. Engineer
    Engineer 23 May 2020 18: 25 New
    +4
    The author’s introduction seemed to me partly chaotic.
    On the territory of the future Galicia-Volyn principality lived the tribes of Duleb, Buzhan, Volyn. Good. But who are these tribes, where did they come from, and if they existed earlier (the author considers them) then what were they called?
    The literature does not include works on early medieval Slavic archeology. Perhaps this led to the fact that the author compared Volyn, Duleb, etc. with antami. But Sedov, Rusanova and Aleskseev unanimously consider the dulebs heirs of Prague culture. That is Slovene / Slavs, but not Antes
    It seems to me in a retrospective analysis, this moment is more useful for understanding the subsequent relationships than fruitless disputes about the ancestral home of the Slavs
    So, duleby is Luka-Raikovec culture, a variant of Prague (Prague-Korchak)
    Regarding the triangle of Duleba, the Buzhanians are Volhynians.
    Here are the conclusions of Sedov
    Undoubtedly, the dulebs made up some part of the early Middle Ages Slavic group, characterized by Prague-Korczak ceramics. Along with them, it included other Praslavian tribes whose names reached the pass. The West German origin of the ethnonym Duleba allows us to assume that this Proto-Slavic tribe developed back in the Roman period somewhere in the neighborhood of the West German population (Sedov V. V1979, p. 131 - 133). Medieval written sources record dulebs on Volypi, in Čechpi, on the middle Danube between Lake Balaton and the Murza River and in Horutanpi na Upper Drava (Niederle?., 1910, s. 369, 370). The dispersion of ethnonyms reflects the migration of dulebs from one region in different directions.
    Taking literally a message from the annals that the Dulebs lived along the Bug, where the Volhynians settled in the annals, some researchers believed that the same East Slavic tribe, which later became known as the Buzhan or Volhynians, was called dulebs. They assumed that on
    Volyn there was a successive change of tribal names: Duleby - Buzhan - Volyn (Barsov Y. Ya., 1885, p. 101, 102; Lndriyashev L. L /., 1887, p. 7; Karetnikov S., 1905, p. 21, 22). Other researchers believed that the more ancient tribal formation of the Eastern Slavs - duleba - laid the foundation for two annalistic tribes - Volynians and Buzhanians (Iiderle L., 1956, p. 155, 156; Grushevsky L /. S.,
    1904, p. 181; Seredonin S. .1 /., 1916, p. 135). The hypothesis of A. L. Shakhmatov, according to which in Volyn there was not a change of tribal names, but the resettlement of tribes, stands out. The first Slavic tribe here were the Dulebs, who left here, and the Buzhans took their place, which in turn were subsequently extolled by the Volhynians (L. Shakhmatov, 1919a, p. 25).
    1. arturpraetor
      23 May 2020 18: 45 New
      +3
      Quote: Engineer
      The author’s introduction seemed to me partly chaotic.

      Probably because it is) Initially, I did not plan to go to such a distance, and I thought to start from the time of joining Russia, but then I decided to add some interesting details that might prove important in a further legend. I did not plan to try to examine in detail what happened in the South-West before the X century. Especially considering the fact that there are not so many specifics, and in general this is a separate issue. And here is a series of 15 articles about the history of Southwest Russia, the current material is only an introduction.
      Quote: Engineer
      The literature does not include works on early medieval Slavic archeology. Perhaps this led to the fact that the author compared Volyn, Duleb, etc. with antami.

      Missing for the above reasons. And no, I didn’t put an equal sign between Volhynians, Dulebs and Ants, but the fact that the Ants with their western neighbors, with distinguishable archaeological cultures, were in close relations - sort of like a fact.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 23 May 2020 18: 58 New
        +4
        Definitely a fact.
        Here, to understand the subsequent events, it is very important to establish the degree of kinship of the Slavic tribes.
        Who were closer to the Volynians - Poles, Slovenian Ilmen, glade, etc. Siblings or cousins? We have little data on how the Slavs perceived their identity and tribal genesis can clarify a lot
        1. arturpraetor
          23 May 2020 19: 07 New
          +5
          Quote: Engineer
          Here, to understand the subsequent events, it is very important to establish the degree of kinship of the Slavic tribes.
          Who were closer to the Volynians - Poles, Slovenian Ilmen, glade, etc. Siblings or cousins? We have little data on how the Slavs perceived their identity and tribal genesis can clarify a lot

          On this topic, I do not know the material well enough, but from what happened next, "and vaapche" - you can still draw several conclusions. This is already the material of the following articles - but the Volhynians relatively easily accepted the power of Kiev and became part of Russia, they also accepted the Rurikids, although not without questions, and at the same time strongly resisted the Polish government since the XNUMXth century. Every attempt by the Poles to settle even on only one borderland, in the Cherven towns, met with serious resistance from local communities. So, most likely, they were nevertheless closer to the Eastern Slavs, although the border status does not exclude a certain community with the Western Slavs. In this case, abrupt transitions rarely occur.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 23 May 2020 19: 13 New
            +4
            Every attempt by the Poles to settle even on the borderlands alone, in the Cherven cities, met with serious resistance from local communities.

            Straight each? And under Boleslav? I got the impression that in the early Middle Ages they changed their owner without problems
            1. arturpraetor
              23 May 2020 19: 29 New
              +5
              Quote: Engineer
              Straight each? And under Boleslav?

              Which one? There, both the Brave and the Bold managed to check in. smile You are probably talking about the period when the Cherven cities were in the hands of the Brave, from 1018 to 1030-31. I did not see direct information about what was there at that time, but judging by the further attitude of the local communities towards the Poles, the locals did not feel any particular joy, and they saw that Poland in the coffin.

              Here one still needs to understand the nature of the state of the Piasts of the early period. Poland was created by force, separate principalities and tribes broke through the knee, and was held by the same force. To maintain a large army by the standards of that time, taxes were mercilessly fought from the population, control was maintained with the help of a network of garrisons in specially built fortifications. There, due to the excess of centralization in the middle of the XNUMXth century, the country almost fell apart completely, and the restoration of paganism was naturally cursed. That is, the Piasts acted by force (and quite successfully), and the Cherven cities could easily take by force and hold them. And locals, when they got acquainted with the Polish order, could easily have anti-Polish sentiments. In this case, the easy capture of the borderland by Boleslav the Brave does not look so straightforward.

              Yes, I once studied the history of Poland in some detail smile
  16. Operator
    Operator 23 May 2020 19: 51 New
    -10
    Quote: arturpraetor
    Kripyakevich

    In addition to ignoring reality, even chastising is funny.
    1. arturpraetor
      23 May 2020 19: 55 New
      +5
      One of the main bullies of the historical section of topvar speaks to me about chastity laughing
  17. arturpraetor
    23 May 2020 20: 20 New
    +4
    It seems that in order to avoid misunderstanding, we will have to give some explanation regarding the economy. Yes, I believe that in the South-West there was a fairly well-developed economy, but not every second, not at any point in time. When considering from ancient times until the Mongol invasion, the following periods can be distinguished:

    - quite ancient times. Trade is poorly developed, there are still no big cities, but the abundance of natural resources allows the territory to remain at a fairly high level of economic development with a tribal system.
    - ancient times. The only period when the economy of the South-West could stagnate, and only under the condition that local trade routes have not yet appeared - there are big doubts, because it was at that time that Przemysl was gaining strength. At the same time, a trade route along the Dnieper appears, which allows Kiev to break ahead ahead due to trade, plus other cities grow on the same trade route from the Varangians to the Greeks, including Novgorod. With Kiev and Novgorod I will rethink, the stump is clear, not to compete, but even then, together with Cherven, these were quite strong cities. This is what makes one doubt the lack of developed trade routes in the region at that time.
    - early Russia. After the approval of the Rurikovich, trade relations with Kiev are established, a trade route along the Dniester appears (already absolutely accurate). Through the South-West trade routes pass not only from north to south, but also from west to east. New cities begin to be massively built. Great economic potential leads to a very rapid development of everything. The general wealth of the land suggests that the South-West is richer than the Novgorod land, which is rich primarily in Novgorod itself, which, undoubtedly, remains one of the first cities. Conflicts are beginning to interfere with Kiev.
    - late Russia. In just about 100 years, Galich appears on the map of Russia, whose population is estimated at 20-30 thousand people at the peak of its development. Without a significant economy of the potential of local lands, the city would not have reached such a large size so quickly. Given that Novgorod has not become warmer, Kiev is ruined due to constant strife, a large number of settlers and technologies like the same three-field come to the Volyn from the west - the region is finally breaking out into the lead. It is the whole region, not individual cities, as the number of cities is growing regularly, and their importance is constantly changing.

    That is, there is only one period when the Southwest could stagnate. Yes, maybe I went through the discussion with the estimates during the discussion, but as you can see from the above, and if you study the materiel and not engage in garbage, arguing that there is nothing to feed in the Subcarpathian region, it will become clear that the South-West at any time time was clearly not poor, from the word at all, and more likely even the other way around. But at a certain moment, he could still break into the leaders in Russia. Especially after the Mongols, since the rest of Russia (except maybe Novgorod) began to experience problems, and the South-West continued to develop.
  18. Doliva63
    Doliva63 23 May 2020 20: 44 New
    -1
    "... the ancestors of all modern Slavic peoples once lived in the area between the Vistula and the Dnieper."
    What a news! Further reading makes no sense.
    1. arturpraetor
      23 May 2020 20: 45 New
      +2
      All claims to historians. This is now one of the most common versions of the ancestral home of the Slavs.
      1. Doliva63
        Doliva63 23 May 2020 21: 24 New
        -3
        Quote: arturpraetor
        All claims to historians. This is now one of the most common versions of the ancestral home of the Slavs.

        Then who are you? belay
        1. arturpraetor
          23 May 2020 21: 29 New
          +3
          Amateur historian. This version is supported by many modern professional historians, regardless of nationality and political preferences.
          1. Doliva63
            Doliva63 25 May 2020 16: 48 New
            0
            Quote: arturpraetor
            Amateur historian. This version is supported by many modern professional historians, regardless of nationality and political preferences.

            This, excuse me, is not an argument. It is necessary to refer not to opinions, but to facts.
            1. arturpraetor
              25 May 2020 16: 52 New
              +1
              Facts? OK, read historical research. There are facts. The list of historians who adhere to this theory is given above by a colleague. This theory is not taken from heaven, alas and ah smile
  19. Operator
    Operator 23 May 2020 21: 04 New
    -8
    Quote: arturpraetor
    The Southwest at any given time was clearly not poor, from the word at all, and rather, even vice versa. But at a certain moment, he could still break into the leaders in Russia. Especially after the Mongols, as the rest of Russia (except maybe Novgorod) began to experience problems

    Logic is clearly not your hobby - what can be the connection between the status of southwestern Russia immediately after the Mongol invasion and the center of distribution of the Slavs, supposedly located in Volyn a thousand years earlier?

    Well, the pearl on the prevalence of the version of history as proof of its truth delivers separately laughing
    1. arturpraetor
      23 May 2020 21: 11 New
      +4
      And you again translate the arrows, apparently missing what I wrote in the same comment above? smile Who gets problems with logic here? I specifically because of you painted in more detail the economies of development of the region by periods, including the period of the unification of Russia, but you missed it, clinging to the end. As a matter of principle, they clung to this my thesis when, in an inadvertent discussion with a colleague, I mixed several periods together, due to which it turned out that it was as if the South-West were ahead of the rest of the world at all times, which I never meant. Yes, my mistake, I made a reservation, which can already be understood when I compared the period of strife for Kiev in comparison. But I have already recovered, and you continue to rest on it.
      1. Operator
        Operator 23 May 2020 21: 27 New
        -8
        Once again - in my comments, I unequivocally said about a thousand times larger region of residence of the ancestors of the Slavs (compared to the forest-swamp region of Volyn) by the time the Slavs entered the historical arena at the beginning of our era. In this connection, the Slavs did not need to "spread" from somewhere and somewhere.

        I also drew your attention to the fact that before the development of railway transport, those regions flourished whose capitals had access to the sea and, accordingly, direct access to maritime transport and foreign economic relations.

        Are you all about peyzans yes about peyzans laughing
        1. arturpraetor
          23 May 2020 21: 34 New
          +2
          Quote: Operator
          Once again - in my comments, I unequivocally said about a thousand times larger region of residence of the ancestors of the Slavs (compared to the forest-swamp region of Volyn) by the time the Slavs entered the historical arena at the beginning of our era. In this connection, the Slavs did not need to "spread" from somewhere and somewhere.

          Well, yes, they just materialized from the air where they are now smile
          Quote: Operator
          I also drew your attention to the fact that before the development of railway transport, those regions flourished that had capitals that had direct access to the sea and, accordingly, to sea transport and foreign economic relations.

          Volyn and Subcarpathia had access to river routes - the Western Bug with the Vistula, overlooking the Baltic Sea, and the Dniester, which was then navigable and goes to the Black Sea. I thought that, since you with such an expert look started to discuss on the topic that you are aware of the local map of rivers and trade routes, but in fact - a complete zilch. Although you will begin to try to challenge geography.

          This is not to mention the complete disregard for land trade routes. Yes, they were inferior to the sea and river - but the richest of the trade routes of the Middle Ages, the Great Silk, somehow didn’t go by sea, and the cities and states located on it earned a lot of money ...
          1. Operator
            Operator 23 May 2020 21: 39 New
            -6
            Quote: arturpraetor
            they simply materialized from the air where they are now

            Do not distort - this is not about now (from Poland and Yugoslavia to the Pacific coast), but about the beginning of our era (from Laba, Nysa, Sudet and Danube to Ladoga and Dnieper).

            And yes, it is useful to distinguish between transit regions (along rivers) and terminal regions (on the coast), the latter of which skimmed off foreign trade.
            1. arturpraetor
              23 May 2020 21: 41 New
              +3
              Quote: Operator
              Do not distort

              But what, only you can do it? smile

              In any case, the Slavs came somewhere earlier, and somewhere later. And somewhere they came as Indo-Aryans, and somewhere - already just like the Slavs. This is precisely the difference, otherwise it is possible to derive roots and ancestral home, and in general everything, before Adam and Eve.
              1. Operator
                Operator 23 May 2020 21: 52 New
                -7
                Somewhere (on the territory of the Byzantine provinces of Pannonia, Illyria, Thrace and Achaia), the Slavs came several hundred years after their appearance on the historical stage (mentioned in Roman chronicles).
                At the same time, the region of autochthonous residence of the ancestors of the Slavs from the end of the Ice Age ("ancestral home") was more than an order of magnitude larger than the region of their expansion in the southern direction in the 1st millennium AD.
    2. arturpraetor
      23 May 2020 21: 18 New
      +4
      Quote: Operator
      Well, the pearl on the prevalence of the version of history as proof of its truth delivers separately

      Yeah. A bunch of serious historians, in the aggregate of all factors, recognize this version as the most plausible (but not the ultimate truth!) - but a certain Operator from topvar as the ultimate truth claims that this is nonsense. Do not you think that something is wrong here, in addition to your usual reversal of what was said?
  20. Jünger
    Jünger 23 May 2020 22: 21 New
    +2
    A very good article. And will the theme of the accession of Volyn and Galicia to the state of the Rurikovich be covered? Something I don’t recall nuances - does historical material exist on this topic? I remember that Svyatoslav crushed the Vyatichi, and the Buzhan with dulebs, who benefited from statehood?
    1. arturpraetor
      23 May 2020 22: 29 New
      +5
      Quote: Junger
      A very good article.

      Thank you hi
      Quote: Junger
      And will the theme of the accession of Volyn and Galicia to the state of the Rurikovich be covered?

      And not only this. The current material is the beginning of a cycle of 15 articles that will describe events in the region until 1392, when the war for the Galicia-Volyn inheritance ends, and the former state of the former Romanovichs will be finally divided between Lithuania and Poland.
      Quote: Junger
      Something I don’t recall nuances - does historical material exist on this topic? I remember that Svyatoslav crushed the Vyatichi, and the Buzhan with dulebs, who benefited from statehood?

      Yes, there are really not very many details. Svyatoslav went on a campaign to someone to the west, but it is not even clear whether the Volynian or the Poles are against anyone. And then Vladimir the Great came, saw and won. Moreover, it was so successful that, after its death, the region, which was quite isolated earlier, could not live outside Russia, did not want to, and did not think at all. Almost...
  21. Normal ok
    Normal ok 24 May 2020 21: 28 New
    +1
    Г
    Alitsa-Volyn principality on the Internet is a kind of paradox

    Interestingly, in the mid-eighties, official Soviet propaganda launched a number of feature films about the history of Ancient Rus. Among them was the film: "Danilo Prince Galitsky"
    1. arturpraetor
      24 May 2020 22: 01 New
      +1
      And even earlier, as many as two books were written - authorship of Khizhnyak and Yugov. To my shame I confess that I have not read them. More precisely, I partially read it, but I don’t remember which of them, in childhood it was, and the content was not particularly remembered. During the year I made several approaches, but somehow imperceptibly for myself switched to reading "Primordial Russia".

      But this is specifically according to Daniil Galitsky, who is too prominent a figure to ignore. And for the Romanovichs in general, or even just for South-Western Russia from the moment of its annexation, there is somehow not a lot of materials. What is funny is that in Ukraine it is, as it were, one of the main historical and propaganda topics, but in fact everything is voiced that could have been gleaned back in Soviet textbooks, only with a change of emphasis. This is despite the fact that there are orders of magnitude more interesting things, in the cycle I was able to cover only an insignificant share of all - and even then in my eyes it looks more detailed and thorough than the Ukrainian "officialdom". I have no idea how to explain this, but it looks very strange when Petersburg historians write about the GVK better and more than the Ukrainian state propaganda request
  22. Dimmedroll
    Dimmedroll 26 May 2020 20: 28 New
    0
    Well, how many historians, so many opinions about the origin of the Slavs. To be honest, the impression is that the Slavs just appeared from the air, and most importantly, it’s only 1500 tons ago. But for what reason then there are monuments on which two dates are indicated and one of them is 5500 years old. Well, apparently by the fact that they were not Slavs and they appropriated someone else's story.