Volyn land in the X-XI centuries


Map of Russia at the time indicated in the article. Volyn in the specified period can be called the entire territory of the South-West with the capital in the city of Vladimir


Southwest Russia for a long time remained outside the borders of the state of the Rurikovich. So, when Oleg was planning his raid on Constantinople, a number of local tribes joined him, including the Croats, Dulebs and Tiverts, but on the rights of allies, and not dependent tributaries. Moreover, while Igor and Olga ruled in Kiev, their relations continued to develop in the west and the first prototypes of local principalities appeared, headed by boyars from large cities. This primarily concerned Cherven cities, which by the beginning of the XNUMXth century had taken shape in the first state formation, which stood above the usual tribal union. In parallel with this, there was a process of formation of individual cities with suburbs in the framework of other tribal unions. Kiev could only be content the news about these processes, since he had many other interests, and the way to the west was blocked by the village residents, who fiercely resisted submission to princely power.

The first mention of a major western campaign concerns the reign of Svyatoslav Igorevich. Information about the hostilities is very vague, it is not even known with whom Svyatoslav actually fought: with Volynians, Poles or someone else. The result of these trips is also unknown. Even if Volynians were able to subjugate, the power over them did not last long, and soon after the death of Svyatoslav the Poles easily subjugated the Cherven cities without encountering much resistance. Most likely, after the death of the prince, all recently annexed territories in the west again separated from the state of the Rurikovich, which facilitated the task of the western neighbors. It is possible that at that time the Volhynians acted along with the Poles, resisting submission to the Rurikovich.

Only the Prince Vladimir the Great took up the southwestern issue thoroughly, having made a large campaign in Volyn in 981. It was from this moment that the establishment of the power of Russia over the tribes of Volyn, Duleb and others was documented. In addition, the western suburbs were recaptured from the Poles, including the two largest cities - Przemysl and Cherven. However, he did not stop there, and, as the chroniclers mentioned, he went as deep as no Russian princes went to the Polish lands anymore (which, however, is debatable). Vladimir Krasno Solnyshko acted thoroughly, toughly, because of which the Poles under his rule no longer encroached on the western borders of Russia.

No less thorough was the integration of the acquired territories into Russia. The lands of Volyn, Worms and others were united into one principality, and Vladimir’s son Boris, then Vsevolod, came to rule them. A new capital was built - the city of Vladimir, which quickly surpassed all the old cities and actually began to dominate them. In 992, a bishopric was founded in the same city. A new administration and a new boyars formed, loyal to the Rurikovich. New settlements and fortifications appeared on the western border, which were supposed to stop the invasion if the Poles decided to start the war again. In a fairly short time, a system was created that quickly and decisively linked the region to a united Russia - later on, local elites inextricably linked their future with the Rurikovich and Rus, and only occasionally representatives of the old boyars tried to rely on foreign rulers.

Beginning of strife


The border status of the Cherven cities together with Przemysl, as well as their late entry into the state of the Rurikovichs, led to the fact that for a long time this part of South-Western Russia turned out to be a disputed territory. Poles constantly claimed it, who did not miss the opportunity to take Cherven and Przemysl to themselves. After the death of Vladimir the Great, in connection with the strife that began in Russia, another such opportunity appeared. Using the request for help from Prince Svyatopolk Vladimirovich, who claimed the supreme power in Russia, the war was started by Prince of Poland Boleslav I the Brave. In the battle near the city of Volhynia in 1018, he defeated the Rus army and annexed the Cherven cities to his state. They managed to be returned only after two major campaigns in 1030 and 1031, when Yaroslav the Wise had already firmly established himself in Kiev as the Grand Duke of Russia, and solved the most pressing problems. After that, the Grand Duke established good relations with the Poles, and for some time they forgot about their claims to the western borderland of the state of the Rurikovich.

After the death of Yaroslav the Wise in 1054, one of his youngest sons, Igor Yaroslavich, became the prince of Volyn. He was part of the “triumvirate of the Yaroslavichi”, which for some time steadily ruled Russia, enjoyed the confidence of the brothers, and was generally the most ordinary prince. There were no particularly significant events in his reign in Volhynia, the Polish sympathies of Igor attributed by the Polish historian Jan Dlugosh remained unprovable.

In 1057, Igor Yaroslavich was replaced by a new Rurikovich, Rostislav Vladimirovich. By that time he was already a special person, with a special history. His father, Vladimir Yaroslavich, the eldest son of Yaroslav the Wise, died before he became the Grand Duke of Kiev, and therefore Rostislav became the first rogue prince in the history of Russia, i.e. an orphaned prince, to whom his father did not have time to transfer his inheritance to the inheritance. Nevertheless, the ladder did not completely exclude him from the line of inheritance of certain principalities, as a result of which he managed to get to his rule first Rostov, and then Volyn.

Despite the fact that the Volyn principality at that time was quite large and rich, the grandson of Yaroslav the Wise considered his position too precarious and unpromising, because in 1064 he left the princely table in Vladimir-Volynsky and went to Tmutarakan. There he managed to expel a cousin, Gleb Svyatoslavich. He, however, did not accept the loss and recaptured the city - but only to immediately lose it again. Having thoroughly strengthened its position in Tmutarakan, Rostislav began to levy tribute to the nearest cities and tribes, strengthening central authority. The Kherson Greeks did not like this very much, as a result of which, in 1067, Rostislav was poisoned by the sent Roman military commander, having managed to stay the local prince for only 3 years.

After Rostislav Vladimirovich left Volhynia, there was no information about the local princes for a long 14 years. It seems that the local power was seized by the community and the boyars of Vladimir-Volynsky, and the principality itself was in fact subordinate to the will of the Kiev prince through some governor. The problem was that just at that time, a struggle broke out for Kiev between the Rurikovich. It all began in 1068, when the rebellious community of Kiev forced the Grand Duke Izyaslav Yaroslavich to leave the city. He returned the following year, receiving the support of the Polish prince Boleslav II the Bold, and was able to regain Kiev - only then in 1073 to lose him again. In 1077, Izyaslav again regained the capital, but a year later he died. In Volhynia, this struggle affected indirectly, but rather unpleasantly: after the campaign in 1069, Polish troops settled down in various cities and villages of South and South-West Russia. This caused outrage and the killing of Polish soldiers, after which Boleslav was forced to withdraw troops. However, in large border cities, including Przemysl, he left his garrisons, effectively retaining control over those territories that the Poles considered their own. In 1078, his prince reappeared in Vladimir-Volynsky - Yaropolk Izyaslavich, son of Izyaslav Yaroslavich.

Community Strength and Will


Volyn land in the X-XI centuries

The entire XI century was very important for the development of Volyn. At that time, as part of Russia, it was a single conditional administrative unit, due to which the ties of all its territories were significantly strengthened, and the local boyars had the beginnings of self-awareness as part of something single. Relations with Kiev were also actively developing, which had two foundations. The first of them was economic - trade with the capital of Russia led to the rapid development of the welfare of the region. The second reason was military - the Volyn boyars themselves could not yet face off against the centralized Polish state, as a result of which they had to choose under whose authority to be. The orders of the state of the Rurikovich at that time were much more profitable, and therefore the choice was made in favor of Kiev, while relations with the Poles gradually deteriorated. The mentality of local residents over time entrenched awareness of themselves not as a separate tribe, but as Russian people. At the same time, the first signs of a future riot of political life appeared: as the economy of Volhynia developed, the boyars accumulated more wealth in their hands and the faster they began to separate from the communities, forming an independent estate, a local aristocracy with its own ambitions and views on the future of cities.

With the beginning of strife and the expansion of the fragmentation of inheritance in Russia, a significant place began to occupy the community. When the supreme rulers, i.e. the princes could change almost every year, and even were constantly busy with wars with each other, some kind of mechanism of self-government of cities, suburbs and rural settlements was required. Such a mechanism was the community, which began to sparkle with new colors. On the one hand, it was already a relic of the tribal system, but on the other, under the prevailing conditions, it acquired a new form and even taking into account the progressive stratification of society began to act as a major political force. Due to the peculiarities of the constantly changing supreme power in Russia, caused by strife and inheritance laws, a unique system of managing cities and destinies began to be created, which was practically not connected with the figures of princes, living separately from them.

The Rurikovichs at the head of the principality could change one after another, but the capital city itself, along with subordinate suburbs and villages, remained constant, which put their role forward and almost equated the Rurikovichs themselves. At the veche, the gathering of all free community members, important questions were decided regarding the life of the community; by decision of the veche, the city could provide support to the prince, or, conversely, deprive him of any help from the city. The prince himself was forced to actively play politics, trying to win the sympathy of this very community. Separately stood the boyars, who just at that time began to gradually separate from the de facto community, increasing their wealth and influence. In fact, however, going directly against the will of the community for the boyars still remains an occupation too dangerous, fraught with serious losses, and therefore they also have to maneuver and incline the sympathies of the community members in their favor.

The community itself could not represent a serious political force if it had not been at the disposal of any military force. Such a force was the militia, which by its nature was different. The most massive, but also the worst was the rural militia. They preferred not to collect it at all or to collect it only in case of emergency - as a rule, to protect the nearest settlements or suburbs. The level of training and armament of these militias, of course, remained extremely low, and they were mainly represented by infantry or light cavalry. The only people of considerable value among the troops from among the villagers were archers, because it was long and difficult to train a good archer, and there were already well-trained shooters who were engaged in hunting in peacetime.

However, all this was just flowers, and the city's shelves were real berries. Cities concentrated in themselves resources from all over the district and therefore could provide fairly good equipment for their militias; cities also needed to fight for their rights and interests, because they tried to keep the city regiment in the best possible way; Community residents were directly interested in protecting the interests of their community, and the community itself was a fairly cohesive formation, because the soldiers of the city regiment, as a rule, were distinguished by fairly high (by the standards of their time) indicators of morale and discipline. Most often, the city regiment was represented by pawns, well armed and protected, but it also included its own cavalry, represented by petty boyars. The prince, wanting to use the city regiment, had to get permission from the community.

The most famous city regiment was the militia of Novgorod, which, being predominantly on foot, more than once showed its high combat efficiency and became one of the factors that allowed this city to continue independent. independent policy. It was the city regiments that formed, perhaps, the only combat-ready infantry on the territory of Russia, since the rest of the infantry, represented by the tribal or rural militia, did not differ in particular endurance and solidarity, and could not afford such good equipment. An exception could be only the prince's squad, but she preferred to fight in horse riding. By their organization and potential, Russian city regiments had analogues in Western Europe, which can be called the Flemish city police or the Scottish infantry, which had a similar foundation to the community and could likewise abundantly distribute “lyuley” to French and English knights. These are examples already from the XIII-XIV centuries, but there are similar examples from antiquity - the hoplite phalanx, which were also formed from the townspeople of ancient polis and were distinguished by their cohesion and ability to stand firmly against an unorganized enemy. However, even with high combat readiness by the standards of time, the infantry remained infantry and so far could not compete with heavy cavalry, showing good results only in skilled hands and against not the most intelligent or numerous enemy.

If you add to this all the rapid economic growth of Russia, which was adjacent to the rapidly growing strife, it becomes clear a fairly high position of cities. The number of strong cities with their own ambitions constantly grew, and therefore the political mess of that time became even more fat and rich, or, in simple terms, the situation becomes difficult, but at the same time interesting. Cities were interested in their own development both due to the internal growth of the economy and trade of the principality, and due to expansion. There was constant competition between cities and communities: both between cities as the highest link in the specific hierarchy, and between them and the suburbs, since the latter themselves sought to separate themselves and become independent cities. In Rurikovichi, urban communities saw not only legitimate (the result of the thorough work of Vladimir the Great and Yaroslav the Wise) supreme rulers, but also guarantors of upholding its interests. The wise prince strove with all his might to strengthen and develop the community of his capital city, receiving in return loyalty, support from the city regiment and growing prosperity. At the same time, the rapidly growing number of Rurikovich in Russia, coupled with strife, made it possible, if necessary, to deprive the careless prince of support, as a result of which he was immediately replaced by the closest relative on the ladder, who could be much better. Therefore, when describing the history of that period, one always needs to remember the complex political structure of Russia and the fact that the capital city was far from always acting as a bargaining chip in the hands of the princes, blindly obeying every new Rurikovich who could change at a staggering frequency.

To be continued ...
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  1. vomag 25 May 2020 06: 22 New
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    Hahah, old songs again ... did we read this at school, why should I post it here? Again, the history of Russia begins in the 9th century, and before that, what was the black hole here? Where did the genus Slav.Rus.and many others go? it is from them that the names Slavs and Russians came out; oh, I forgot about it, they didn’t say it at school ... It’s only for YOU Russians that history begins in the 8th – 9th centuries for ALL neighbors 3-5th century BC ...
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 May 2020 07: 03 New
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      Quote: vomag
      Hahah, old songs again ... did we read this at school, why should I post it here? Again, the history of Russia begins in the 9th century, and before that, what was the black hole here? Where did the genus Slav.Rus.and many others go? it is from them that the names Slavs and Russians came out; oh, I forgot about it, they didn’t say it at school ... It’s only for YOU Russians that history begins in the 8th – 9th centuries for ALL neighbors 3-5th century BC ...

      I wanted to leave an angry comment. Then I thought to be offended by those who seem to have learned to read and write, but do not understand what they read, blessed! A fool in Russia their attitude !!!
      See article title -
      Volyn land in the X-XI centuries


      Now about something else.
      Many thanks to Aretem from the rather big Kitty !!! Interesting little bun, we look forward to continuing!
      1. Trilobite Master 25 May 2020 12: 42 New
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        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        I wanted to leave an angry comment.

        And I can’t resist it. smile
        To be honest, these poor people get their inferiority complexes. Oh, damn it, Egyptians, Sumerians, Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans ... We will not allow any historical absurdities to be older than us! We have to be the coolest of all, otherwise it’s normal, right?
        Three ways to get rid of your own complexes, all tested and operational.
        1. To proclaim that the Russians are older than all those listed together, and be proud.
        2. Proclaim that all of these are Russian and be proud.
        3. To proclaim that all of the above were not at all and be proud.
        All the achievements of mankind in all regions and at all times, including the first tools, the mastery of fire, the invention of the wheel, the domestication of animals, etc., either belong exclusively to Russians, or ... No, no! Only Russian, no alternatives.
        I would say
        Quote: vomag
        Where did the genus Slav.Rus.and many others go?

        if vomag told me where they came from. Yes, in fact, I can say so: where did they come from - they got there too. In general, there is a place for them.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 May 2020 14: 26 New
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          Greetings Michael!
          It annoys me not only this, but not the understanding of the "enlightened ones" that our modern Fatherland and the peoples living in it are a consistent line of development and continuity!
          In essence, we are the descendants of the Indo-Europeans (Aryans) who managed to wander the Eurasian continent, God forbid, more than the Jews in the time of Moses! That unknown, sitting on a bull with a stone ax in his hands, gave the future not only to us, but also to Iranians, British, French, Italians, Greeks and many, many other nations !!! From his point of view, it makes no difference who his children are Germans, Balts or Slavs !!! His achievements will not solely belong to the Russians, and on the rights of descendants almost fifty nationalities! So it makes sense to break spears and look for his exclusivity! Suffer that the East Slavic ethnic group is only 1500 years old, and Russian statehood 10 centuries !!! Objectively I propose to compare with the UK, France, Spain or Germany !!! Or national pride - this is parity in existence !!! Well then, let's brag to Liberia, Nigeria and Mozambique !!! Ah yes we are handsome !!!
          1. Trilobite Master 25 May 2020 15: 44 New
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            Greetings, Vlad. smile
            Well, all of them, these notorious, are really tired.
            All people come from someone, everyone has the same pedigree. There were Sumerians, they did their job - they disappeared, ceased to exist as a people, but their descendants live, representing other peoples. The same thing, the Egyptians and the Romans, and others, the rest. There were ancestors of the first Slavs, and their number is as long as all the others - no more no less. And today's peoples (including Russians), as well as the Sumerians, ancient Greeks and Romans, will do their job and leave the historical arena, cease to exist, new peoples will appear in their place - their descendants.
            But some want to believe that their ancestors of all the other ancestors have bent all their lives, so their own inferiority, does it seem less painful to them? request
        2. vomag 25 May 2020 18: 48 New
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          if vomag told me where they came from.
          To do this, you need to read a story with a sweetheart! and not to bring any nonsense to the WORLD ... It's not my fault that you are not quite distant people ... don’t go to the library ..
          1. Trilobite Master 25 May 2020 19: 29 New
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            Yes, that's about the library, you noticed that right ... The last time I went to the Public, probably when I was writing a diploma and preparing for defense ... Oh, that was a long time ago ... And when was the last time you were in the library? What did they take? What did you read?
            Quote: vomag
            not quite distant people

            I don’t even know how to relate to this statement - offended or proud? There are people like you, near, there are others - far, apparently, the opposite of you - smart and well-read. And we, it turns out “not quite distant,” that is, also smart and well-read, but a little less than those distant ... I don’t know how the other colleagues are, but, in general, I personally did not pretend to be more. laughing
            Well and the last: only people like you and people like you "read" the story. They "read" physics, chemistry, mathematics and other sciences. The sense of this, as a rule, is not much, your case confirms this. Normal people, however, study history, like any other sciences, comprehend, and even replenish many.
            Although maybe I misunderstood you and you recommend that I just read a story? In the sense of a story, there, a story ... Then I have a question: what kind of story did you read, what does it still mean to you? Sometimes I want a thrill, and I’m ready to risk following your example, with all the caution available, of course, but you need to know exactly what kind of story and in which library you unearthed it. laughing
    2. Bar1 25 May 2020 07: 40 New
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      according to sources that the author cited at the end of the first article.
      -Mayorov-the main source of the Ipatiev Chronicle
      -Kupchinsky Acts of Galician Rus are not in the public domain.
      -Voloshuk is a Ukrainian historian, the reliability of his research is not high precisely because Ukrainian history has ceased to meet all scientific criteria. However, everything would be fine, but the main thing is to know the sources on which this Voloshuk relies, and it is not possible to find it. Voloshuk in his works develops the idea that "Galicia is not entirely Russia" without revealing a true understanding of the content of the ethnonym Galicia.
      -Stefanovich, his article on fidelity is the same based on a study of the Ipatiev and Lavreniev chronicles.
      -Sabitov-calculated in his number of Mongol troops invading Russia -129 thousand.
      -Galitsky-Volyn chronicle is the Ipatiev Chronicle.
      So the source study base of all these historians actually rests more precisely on the Ipatiev Chronicle. I have already spoken about this chronicle. This is the youngest of all chronicles that have been introduced into scientific circulation. It was found by the historiographer Karamzin, who was the author of this version of history in the Ipatiev Monastery in the beginning of the 19th century. This chronicle is a list, as usual, came out of the pen of the monks of the Kiev Pechersk Academy under the direction of Metropolitan Pyotr Mogila, who was a student and follower of the Polish conquerors of Russia, Chancellor Khodkevich and Hetman Zholkevich, therefore refer to this chronicle as a Russian source this is how to refer to Goebels as a Russian historian.
      But obviously falsified lists of annals continue to go to this forum in the sources.

      And finally, such an unpleasant moment. The author of the article posted his articles on another site

      http://alternathistory.com/istoriya-yugo-zapadnoj-rusi-chast-i-geografiya-drevnejshaya-istoriya-istochniki-informatsii/
      , which was no reason to prohibit publishing on fuel, due to the fact that the type of information should always be new on fuel, banning my article, as the military review administrator Chuvakin told me. There are double standards on fuel.
      1. 3x3zsave 25 May 2020 08: 37 New
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        And finally, such an unpleasant moment. The author of the article posted his articles on another site

        http://alternathistory.com/istoriya-yugo-zapadnoj-rusi-chast-i-geografiya-drevnejshaya-istoriya-istochniki-informatsii/
        , which was no reason to prohibit publishing on fuel, due to the fact that the type of information should always be new on fuel, banning my article, as the military review administrator Chuvakin told me. There are double standards on fuel.

        Material on both sites published on the same day. On the resource you have indicated, under the article there is a link to VO. None of the VO rules are violated.
        What is the problem???
        1. Bar1 25 May 2020 08: 41 New
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          Quote: 3x3zsave
          What is the problem???

          In the opinion of the editor Chuvakin, only a new article i.e. not bushnaya.Eto he told me so.
          1. 3x3zsave 25 May 2020 08: 45 New
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            The publication of this material on another resource is secondary to the publication on this one.
            What is the problem???
            1. Bar1 25 May 2020 08: 49 New
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              yes the thing is in the hat ...
              1. 3x3zsave 25 May 2020 08: 50 New
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                I thought so.
              2. Trilobite Master 25 May 2020 12: 45 New
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                Quote: Bar1
                yes the thing is in the hat ...

                Probably the one you wanted to publish here? It is good that you realize the level of your creativity. Indeed, a rare hat.
                1. Pane Kohanku 25 May 2020 13: 03 New
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                  Indeed, a rare hat.

                  Recognize the tapi tribe
                  And it will be in the hat!
                  hi
                  (film "A Man from Nowhere", USSR, 1961, director E. Ryazanov)
                  Mikhail, they only ask you for recognition of a different theory of the historical development of the Slavs! Recognize the tapi tribe! request (And, just in case, also bardarik-strollers) wink
                  1. Trilobite Master 25 May 2020 13: 47 New
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                    Quote: Pan Kohanku
                    another theory of the historical development of the Slavs

                    This is to the Operator.
                    The bar is a creature of a different order. Give him the whole history of mankind in the context of "Tartaria - the cradle of civilization" and "Dinosaurs - the product of a genetic experiment of Russian scientists of the XII century."
                    1. Pane Kohanku 25 May 2020 14: 12 New
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                      "Tartaria - the cradle of civilization"

                      recognize the tribe of tartars then! yes
                      "Dinosaurs - a product of a genetic experiment of Russian scientists of the XII century."

                      somehow deeply dug .. usually they say "Russia - the Homeland of elephants." what
                      1. Trilobite Master 25 May 2020 19: 38 New
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                        Quote: Pan Kohanku
                        usually say "Russia - Homeland of elephants"

                        Yesterday you live, young man.
                        Dinosaurs are captive reptilians captured by our ancestors during the victorious war with Nibiru. Our wise scientists, under the wise guidance of Vladimir Monomakh, conducted a series of genetic excre ... experiments, but not very successful, on these prisoners - the material turned out to be so-so. Then I had to sterilize everyone with ultra-thin lasers, but then they themselves died out - without offspring ...
                        Didn’t you know that? Ah, Nikolai, when was the last time you were in the library? So you can see that for a long time. Everything there, it turns out, has changed. "Read the story" is necessary again.
                        wassat laughing
                      2. 3x3zsave 25 May 2020 20: 07 New
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                        Ah, Nikolai, when was the last time you were in the library?
                        Michael! hi
                        Raise in vain! Nikolay is just a stone's throw from the Library Drive. Geography is binding.
                      3. Trilobite Master 25 May 2020 21: 17 New
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                        I have a couple of acquaintances living near the Akademicheskaya metro station, but alas! - they do not pull on academicians in any way. smile
                        And where is the library passage? I know the library lane, there is a Norman store and a shavuha opposite. In local shamans, you can get used up after eleven luda, but in the square opposite the Baltics the cops don’t drive, you can normally sit with homies ... smile Is Nikolai working somewhere there? smile
                      4. 3x3zsave 25 May 2020 21: 41 New
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                        This street, "three houses", is called differently. Either the lane, the passage. But, in general, everything is true, the "highway" from Bolts to Shkapina. On the corner, a library. Colin's work, 300 meters earlier, by Shkapina.
                      5. Trilobite Master 25 May 2020 21: 44 New
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                        I know those places well. There are many reasons for this, but one is enough. From the Baltic station there are trains and minibuses towards Luga ... smile
                      6. 3x3zsave 25 May 2020 21: 50 New
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                        I also traveled from Warsaw to Luga in the spring of 2000. The facility in the meadow was. Since then I love this city.
                      7. Trilobite Master 25 May 2020 23: 23 New
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                        Yes, they used to go from Warsaw. How long ago it was ... But now, when the last trains stopped walking from it, I don’t remember. smile
                      8. 3x3zsave 26 May 2020 07: 10 New
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                        In the spring of 2001.
                      9. Pane Kohanku 26 May 2020 11: 47 New
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                        But when the last trains stopped walking from him, I don’t remember.

                        you just need to, when this nonsense with isolation ends, select a day off, and the three of us go to the steam locomotive museum on the Baltic drinks By the way, in the Baltics there is a wonderful pub ... wink
          2. Ryazan87 25 May 2020 20: 57 New
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            As for the experiments of characters like vomaga /
  • Pane Kohanku 25 May 2020 10: 37 New
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    not bushy

    Not Bush, but Obama? belay democratic or republican? again, not what bushy - senior bushy or younger bushy? Damn, continuous questions and guesses .... what like this, to myself in the morning I broke my brain ... wassat
    colleagues, have a good day. Glad Artem is printing. drinks
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          1. Undecim 25 May 2020 16: 14 New
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            Bar, you are not only ignorant in history, you are ignorant in grammar. You made two mistakes in two lines!
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              1. Undecim 25 May 2020 17: 27 New
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                Is this your style of discussion? Fully consistent with your knowledge.
                1. Trilobite Master 25 May 2020 19: 50 New
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                  Viktor Nikolaevich, my applause! hi laughing
                  You somehow very quickly manage to bring this character into his natural, so to speak, natural state. In your presence, a person immediately and completely begins to demonstrate his intellectual potential, so to speak, is the product face ... well, or whatever is more suitable in his case ...
                  Tell me honestly - do all of the weak-minded have such a violent reaction to you, or in the case of the Bar, do we have the opportunity to observe some kind of purely individual form of phobia?
                  laughing
                  1. Bar1 25 May 2020 20: 01 New
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                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    Tell me honestly - all the weak-minded have such a violent reaction to you

                    why are you offending him like that? Or is he no longer offended?
                  2. Undecim 25 May 2020 20: 09 New
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                    all the weak-minded have such a violent reaction on you
                    Almost all to one degree or another. With individual features. Completely barefoot goes to direct insults. But there are interesting cases. Unforgettable Venya accused me of the collapse of the Russian Academy of Sciences in general and historical science in particular. Agree that not everyone succeeds in being so powerful even in the eyes of one individual.
                  3. Trilobite Master 25 May 2020 20: 34 New
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                    Yes, I remember even envied you a little ... smile
                    And the individual did not understand the meaning of my phrase ... laughing
                  4. Undecim 25 May 2020 20: 42 New
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                    I wonder who the individual is in life. Very similar to compensatory behavior.
                  5. Trilobite Master 25 May 2020 21: 29 New
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                    I have long hypothesized that the reasons for the commitment of some individuals to various pseudoscientific concepts lie in the field of psychology, and sometimes, as psychiatry. An analysis of the activity on the site of the ever-memorable Venya showed that it has a strictly cyclical character, and the periods of this activity became shorter and longer, the breaks in it. Perhaps we were dealing with a progressive mental illness, the periods of remission of which coincided with the activity of the patient on the site.
                    I admit that we have something similar in the person of Bar. Although the symptoms here are not so obvious.
                  6. Undecim 25 May 2020 21: 47 New
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                    the reasons for the commitment of some individuals to various pseudoscientific concepts lie in the field of psychology, and sometimes, as psychiatry.
                    I would lean towards conflict resolution. After all, this is also a kind of conflict, and if there is a conflict, there should be a goal - "a conscious image of the anticipated result, the achievement of which is directed by the action of man." To identify the goals pursued by people during the conflict, there are different methods. One of them is the study of living space and the behavior of people in this space. Why I became interested in social status.
                  7. Trilobite Master 25 May 2020 23: 15 New
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                    In the definition that you voiced, I did not like the word "conscious." The world would be much better if each conflict implied a clear understanding by its participants of their goals, but unfortunately this is not the case. We are either forced to admit that there are conflicts whose participants do not pursue any goal, or to state that there are conflicts with its participants' vague (unconscious) goals.
                    Plus, any conflict is a process in which goals can change, moving from the status of "conscious" to the status of "unconscious" and vice versa. And, in addition, do we not have to introduce the concepts of the “true” and “imaginary” goals of the conflict, when a person acts on the basis of some internal, unconscious attitudes, but for himself defines and justifies his behavior with some, at first glance, rational ideas?
                    Of course, in order to comprehend the motivation of the actions of a specific individual, the algorithm for making certain decisions, it is necessary to study his lifestyle, habitual environment (and in the dynamics of its changes), environment, psycho-physiological reactions, etc.
                    My thesis included, among other things, a section on predicting human behavior (in my case, on the topic of a criminal diploma smile ), from a scientific point of view, I have not returned to this topic since then, but I have come across a practical one on a regular basis and as a practitioner I can safely say that the accuracy of the “diagnosis” in this case directly depends on the depth of study of the object.
                    As for the object under discussion, it is unlikely that he, deliberately provoking conflicts with his comments, objectively realizes the goals with which he does this, or rather, most likely, he sets himself "imaginary" goals, not realizing or even thinking about the "true" . The true ones lie in his subconscious and are possibly caused by psychological injuries of varying severity, unfulfilled ambitions, etc., although old Freud would probably put forward his own version of his motivation. smile
                  8. Undecim 25 May 2020 23: 58 New
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                    although old Freud would probably put forward his own version of his motivation
                    Or old Jung.
              2. Mihaylov 25 May 2020 22: 44 New
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                Quote: Trilobite Master
                I have long hypothesized that the reasons for the commitment of some individuals to various pseudoscientific concepts lie in the field of psychology, and sometimes, as psychiatry.

                I think there are several reasons, we need to approach in a comprehensive way: here both psychiatry and conflict resolution and simply poor information, for example, among the "bulkhrusts" there are many "victims" of modern ideology.
                But it seems to me that a large part is based on religious nature: in modern society, religion does not play such a significant role as before, and for many, the need for blind faith remains. In Soviet times, it was possible and necessary to believe in official ideology, but what to believe now? Here are many in need and find such a replacement, and the story in this regard is very convenient. In fairness - not only she, but in physics or in other exact sciences, all this is more complicated, and in medicine, for example, it is also possible.
                Faith implies the absence of logical evidence: they are in "religion" and are not needed. And if you don’t share the views of the “adept” and, moreover, cast doubt on him, then usually he quickly goes over to aggression: try talking to a religious fanatic and if you express doubt, he will very quickly require you to be burned at the stake or crucified, or something else, despite the fact that his religion is by far the most peaceful on earth.
    2. Bar1 25 May 2020 19: 58 New
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      Quote: Undecim
      Is this your style of discussion? Fully consistent with your knowledge.

      discussion? You don’t know what it is. Your credo and way to earn it is to repeat what others have said, likening to a parrot, because you don’t have one, and then run back and bite your heels. And there’s nothing to do with the polemic here.
      1. Bar1 25 May 2020 21: 36 New
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        honestly, it’s disgusting sometimes here to be in company with these. They are not interested in science, they do not need facts, they are not interested in any future. They need only one thing, to defend the past that was not built by them and before them. This is staff. They are not able to talk on the topic, or around and around, and when you bump your nose, like lousy kittens always predictably jump off the topic and turn to personalities, like this eleventh.
  • Bar1 26 May 2020 08: 43 New
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    can you imagine how beautiful it sounds - you cattle, instead of the rough you cattle ...
  • arturpraetor 25 May 2020 14: 28 New
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    Quote: Bar1
    Voloshuk is a Ukrainian historian, the reliability of his research is not high precisely because Ukrainian history has ceased to meet all scientific criteria

    Sorry, but I do not care about the nationality of the authors. Unlike some, the politota did not replace the convolutions in my brain, and I judge the quality of the material by the material itself, even if the work on the subject of the Galicia-Volyn principality will be called "On the reproduction of butterflies in the conditions of Subcarpathia", and Tatamba Mumumba from Zimbabwe will write it , never in this Subcarpathia never been.
    The author of the article posted his articles on another site

    After publishing the article on this site. With an indication of the source from the topwar. All according to the rules. Once again - first the article is published here, laid out in the "History" section, and then transferred there. Not the other way around. On the contrary, it’s just impossible. No double standards, read the rules carefully.
  • kalibr 25 May 2020 07: 45 New
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    Quote: vomag
    It is only with YOU Russians that the story begins in the 8th-9th century with ALL neighbors 3-5th century BC ...

    Dear Sergey! It would be very nice if you, armed with the knowledge that YOU possess, in turn, wrote your material about how you see it. I am sure that the editorial board of VO reacted to such an article with full understanding. For example, I would be interested to know what this knowledge is based on, sources - written and archaeological, well, etc. There were articles by Eduard Vashchenko about the ancient Slavs, but perhaps your material will be better structured and contain more interesting facts. In any case, that would be nice ...
    1. Bar1 25 May 2020 08: 11 New
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      Quote: kalibr
      I am sure that the editorial board of VO treated this article with full understanding


      no, no no, ideologically inconsistent infa fails on fuel.
    2. rich 25 May 2020 09: 45 New
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      I liked the article. Thanks to the author.
      One small remark is IMHO. The author was obliged to refer to the Galicia-Volyn annals - a 1201th-century annals devoted to the history of Galicia and Volhynia. It is preserved in the Ipatiev Chronicle. Covers the events of 1291. It is considered the main source on the history of the Galicia-Volyn principality.

      At first, the annals consisted of separate historical stories. Only during the creation of a common record was a chronology introduced. According to the content and linguistic-stylistic features, the Galician-Volyn annals are divided into two parts:
      1. The Galician Chronicle (1201-1260), compiled in Galicia, which is based on the chronicle of the times of Prince Daniil Romanovich Galitsky;
      2. The Volyn Chronicle (1261-1291), compiled in Volyn, where events on the Volyn lands are more displayed in the reign of Vasilk Romanovich and his son Vladimir.
      Linguistically, the border between the Galician and Volyn annals clearly runs through the years 1260/1261 [1], however, the textological features characteristic of the Galician chronicle (quotes from the compilation chronograph) are found until 1265. Based on the textual data, we can talk about active editing of the end of the Galician chronicle ( 1261-1265) the editor of the Volyn annals.
      A significant place in the Galicia-Volyn annals is the history of the culture of the Galicia-Volyn principality. From the previous Old Russian annals, the Galicia-Volyn annals are distinguished by an almost complete absence of church subjects.
      1. rich 25 May 2020 09: 56 New
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        You can get acquainted with the text of the Galician-Volyn annals and comments on it on the website of the "Complete Collection of Russian Annals", at the link - http://psrl.csu.ru/toms/GVL_2005.shtml
        1. Bar1 25 May 2020 10: 40 New
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          Quote: Rich
          You can get acquainted with the text of the Galician-Volyn annals and comments on it on the website of the "Complete Collection of Russian Annals", at the link - http://psrl.csu.ru/toms/GVL_2005.shtml


          You can get acquainted with comments by the link, but not with the annals themselves.
          1. rich 25 May 2020 11: 21 New
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            Hello Paul hi
            You can get acquainted with comments by the link, but not with the annals themselves.

            Open the indicated site, click this icon indicated on fig. and download the material in djvu format.

            scientific commentaries go up to page 77, and from page 77 the text of the Galician-Volyn annals begins
            .
            Everything is simple hi
            1. Bar1 25 May 2020 12: 15 New
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              Quote: Rich
              scientific commentaries go up to page 77, and from page 77 the text of the Galician-Volyn annals begins


              is that the original?

              Quote: Rich
              then you actually mean? In which list exactly?

              you wrote in the Galician annals, and the picture is from the Radzivilov annals.
              Is there an illustration in the Ipatiev Chronicle? They don’t write about it.
          2. Hantengri 25 May 2020 11: 26 New
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            Quote: Bar1
            You can get acquainted with comments by the link, but not with the annals themselves.

            Vision problems?
            There, after all, Russian on the screen says:
            The text of the Galicia-Volyn annals (prepared for publication by V. Yu. Franchuk)

            and also indicated that this text can be found on page 77
      2. Bar1 25 May 2020 10: 39 New
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        Quote: Rich
        It is considered the main source on the history of the Galicia-Volyn principality.



        But what are the illustrations in the Ipatiev Chronicle?
        1. rich 25 May 2020 11: 37 New
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          But what are the illustrations in the Ipatiev Chronicle?

          What do you actually mean? In which list exactly?
          There are two main lists of the annals (Ipatievsky and Khlebnikovsky) and four derivative lists dating back to Khlebnikovsky:
          1.1.Ipatievsky (Academic) list. On 307 sheets (one of the options for citing it is for this division). Dated to the end of the 1420s [1]. In the XVII century, this list was in the Ipatiev Monastery near Kostroma, from where the chronicle got its name. In 1809, it was found in the Library of the Academy of Sciences by historian Nikolai Karamzin. The list is written in five handwritings, but researchers did not agree on where the chronicle was written. Currently stored in the Library of the Academy of Sciences.
          1.2.Khlebnikovsky list (Nestorovsky list). It dates from around 1560, probably created in the Kiev Pechersk Monastery. A number of sheets in it are confused, others are lost and restored according to an older list. It was discovered among the manuscripts of the merchant Pyotr Khlebnikov in 1809 by Karamzin and put into scientific circulation.
          2.1. Pogodinsky list. It dates from around 1620. It is a copy of Khlebnikovsky. At one time, it belonged to Mikhail Pogodin. After acquiring the collection of Pogodin in 1852, Nicholas I, along with other manuscripts, entered the Public Library.
          2.2. List of Yarotsky. Dated in 1651, entered the Library of the Academy of Sciences in 1910 from Y. V. Yarotsky, director of a commercial school in the city of Kremenets, Volyn province. It is a revision of the Khlebnikov list.
          2.3.Ermolaevsky list. It dates from the 1710s, allegedly made in Kiev for Prince Dmitry Golitsyn. This list in textual terms goes back to Khlebnikovsky, but has more vivid lexical features of Ukrainian origin and many discrepancies, printed separately in the 1908 edition, in a special Appendix. Comparison with the Khlebnikov list shows that most of the discrepancies of the Ermolaev list appeared as a result of the banal mistakes of the scribe, who was very inattentive and also poorly understood the old Russian text. From the litter on the manuscript it follows that the list at different times belonged to Vasily Alekseevich Golitsin, the Moscow merchant Matvey Gavrilov, who sold it in 1769 to Ivan Kozmin. Then the list fell into the collection of Alexander Ermolaev, and in 1814 was acquired by the Public Library.
          2.4 Krakow list. It was made for the Polish historian Adam Narushevich around 1795-1796. This is a copy of the Pogodinsky list, which was rewritten in Latin letters for the convenience of the customer. It is of value as a source of reconstruction of several fragments of the Pogodinsky list lost after 1796.

          Ask a specific question hi
      3. arturpraetor 25 May 2020 14: 29 New
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        Quote: Rich
        the second must necessarily have referred to the Galicia-Volyn annals

        Indicated in a previous article in the list of sources hi
    3. Trilobite Master 25 May 2020 12: 57 New
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      Quote: kalibr
      It would be very nice if you, armed with the knowledge that YOU possess, in turn, wrote your material about how you see it.

      Do not wait, Vyacheslav Olegovich! laughing
      The proud descendant of the Slavic Aryans of the boreal world should not justify to anyone, should not prove anything to anyone, should not bother with anything at all! For the great accomplishments of his ancestors, we, stupid worms at his feet, udo-reptiloid offspring, henchmen of the Masters of the West, looking at his bright face, should with exceptional obsequiousness pick up the pearls of his wise words, sparingly dropped from his lips to us for reproach and edification.
      In other words, we have a lot of honor. Enough and fifteen words in the comment, you can’t count on more.
  • tihonmarine 25 May 2020 08: 58 New
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    Quote: vomag
    It is only with YOU Russians that the story begins in the 8th-9th century with ALL neighbors 3-5th century BC ...

    Especially in the United States, well, of course, at the outskirts, which originates from the Sumerians.
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 May 2020 07: 13 New
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    Good morning Artyom!
    It seems to me that you have missed an interesting aspect by joining Svyatoslav Igorevich of South-Western Russia. In fact, in the wake of our chroniclers, you have ignored the Ugrian invasion of Europe. Given the family ties of Prince Svyatoslav, it is possible - it was a Hungarian-supported campaign or banal selection of Red Russia after the final acquisition of the fatherland by the Ugrians in Panionia. At the beginning of its reign, Russia was in close allied relations with the Hungarians and the Pechenegs.
    Regards, Vlad!
    1. kalibr 25 May 2020 07: 40 New
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      I read similar articles and comments, and I can only rejoice. My knowledge remained at the level of Mavrodin’s book “Ancient Russia” and other publications of those years. Well began to write today on the history of our ancestors, and comment too!
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 May 2020 07: 46 New
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        Good morning Vyacheslav Olegovich. Thanks for the kind word. Another aspect is interesting here. It was not through the lands of understudies and northerners that the equestrian part of Prince Svyatoslav’s army returned after the defeat in Bulgaria. I think at that time it was the territory of Kievan Rus. Otherwise, the movement would be associated with the fighting.
        1. kalibr 25 May 2020 07: 50 New
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          Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
          understudies

          Something I don’t know such ... And as regards the "aspect" ... All the affairs of that time are covered with darkness, the veil of centuries hides our vision of human affairs, and the earth hides their damp cheese and their belongings. Where to dig to confirm what you have said, where to look for texts of letters telling the story ... I look at the Zolotarevsky hillfort ... is standing in a forest from a mast pine forest. But after all, when the battle was in full swing there were fields around ... But behind the trees ... fields are not visible!
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 May 2020 09: 47 New
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            Guilty, did not read your comment. Of course - dulebs.
      2. Pane Kohanku 25 May 2020 10: 44 New
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        my knowledge remained at the level of the book Mavrodin "Ancient Russia"

        Vyacheslav Olegovich, here I was, before acquaintance with VO and an honest company, I did not think much for the ancient Slavs. But one of the first weapons I read was the book of the author you mentioned (with my son). "Russian rifle." In the era of "pre-Internet" - scrupulous serious research. I recommend to everyone interested, there is a free download on the Internet. hi
    2. arturpraetor 25 May 2020 14: 34 New
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      Yes, it is possible. I missed this moment, thanks for the addition hi

      In general, with regard to omissions, I climbed into my old work on the same topic in AI yesterday, there, under the Romanovichs, the first was essentially the real one .... It turned out that the current cycle on real history is much less detailed, many details on real in AI were painted more wassat He began to transfer these details to future articles, but then threw it away. Otherwise, 15 articles are inflated in 30. Correctly, absolutely rightly, I wrote in the first article:
      In general, as already mentioned above, the whole cycle is only an attempt to bring everything together and give the most general, but integral picture of the history of the development of South-West Russia in the Middle Ages, and therefore each person who desired more details can safely get acquainted with them, having studied materials from the current list

      Because of the details - a wagon, and a small cart. And a train laughing
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 May 2020 07: 35 New
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    As a topic for discussion. Artyom, while studying material on the Galician-Volyn Rus, you came across the mention of "thousand"! In essence, speaking about the role of the “community (city) militia”, it must be understood that this is partly a tracing-paper of the military structure of the tribal army. Moreover, the Slavs have a fairly structured structure (ten, sotsky, thousand). These institutions are often covered in Novgorod land, occasionally in Vladimir Suzdal. I dare to suggest. At an early stage, having annexed the lands of the future Galicia-Volyn principality to the tribal nobility, significant damage was done. Perhaps this is due to Polish rule. The same Vladimir Svyatoslavovich calls the cities of Chervonnaya Rus his patronymic. The boyar itself, could only form under the prince's squad. Indirectly, this confirms that tribal unions dominant under Svyatoslav, during the reign of Vladimir, go to secondary roles. I suppose that the boyars of South-Western Russia are nothing more than the process of merging the boyar neighbors of the first Kiev princes and the local communal elite. From here and the main difference between the "bees" is their ability to lean on the ground!
    So there are more questions than answers!
    1. Edward Vashchenko 25 May 2020 08: 21 New
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      Vladislav,
      support for the "thousandth", an extremely important military institute, by the way, in Moscow disappeared only in the XV century.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 May 2020 14: 50 New
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        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
        Vladislav,
        support for the "thousandth", an extremely important military institute, by the way, in Moscow disappeared only in the XV century.

        And I want to emphasize - how it disappeared !!!
      2. Trilobite Master 25 May 2020 19: 59 New
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        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
        By the way, in Moscow it disappeared only in the XNUMXth century.

        Greetings, Edward.
        Is it in the XV century.?
        It seemed to me that in Moscow the Thousands ceased to be appointed at the end of the fourteenth century. Am I missing something?
        1. Edward Vashchenko 25 May 2020 20: 55 New
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          Michael,
          good evening,
          Sorry for not responding right away. Tysyatsky, as I recall, was last mentioned in the period of the 40s of the XNUMXth century, the period of the so-called “feudal war”, according to another version: new and old orders in the North-East of Russia, and the participation of representatives of old institutions was logical.
          Yours faithfully,
    2. Gato 25 May 2020 13: 02 New
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      Good time, Mr. Cohan!
      tracing the military structure of the tribal army. Moreover, the Slavs have a fairly structured structure (ten, sotsky, thousand).

      For some reason, it seemed to me that the ten, sotsk and thousand were more related to, so to speak, civil-administrative elected posts, and not to purely military ones.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 May 2020 14: 34 New
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        I’m not a pan, but a cat!
        With the loss of the clan-tribal marker, when each male member is a howl (warrior). Purely military elected posts (of the tenth, hundredth and thousandth) become civil-administrative, but do not lose their authority in the event of war and emergency situations and disasters. For example during a fire!
    3. arturpraetor 25 May 2020 14: 41 New
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      Tysyatsky - of course, met. But he didn’t dare to describe the structure of the community in more detail - it just so happened that half of the article was not entirely in topic.

      It is possible that you are absolutely right, dear colleague. Moreover, your calculation looks quite logical and holistic, as from my bell tower. So, I’m afraid that a big discussion will not work here - unless it’s only for me not to specifically take the position of “Baba Yaga against!”. In general, the topic of the annexation of Southwest Russia to the Rurikovich state is rather chaotic, there are more gaps than answers, and therefore it could be in any way, including - as you pointed out. And even cooler, down to the reptilian landings laughing

      But in any case - Vladimir very qualitatively connected this region to Russia. To accept the Rurikovich is one thing, but for one or two generations to become completely attached to them, and no longer really consider other options - this is completely different. When Kormilichich moved to riches a couple of centuries later, this caused a storm of indignation and rejection - only Rurikovich could be a prince.
      1. Trilobite Master 25 May 2020 20: 16 New
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        Quote: arturpraetor
        To accept the Rurikovich is one thing, but for one or two generations to become completely attached to them, and no longer really consider other options

        I intervene a bit.
        It is with reference to Galich that everything looks like a scruff-over. The general rule is that older cities have wider traditions of democracy, a stronger veche. Examples - Novgorod, Pskov, Rostov, Suzdal until a certain point - Kiev. New cities, built by the princes as strongholds - Vladimir-Volynsky, Vladimir-on-Klyazma, Moscow, Pereyaslavl-Zalessky, Tver, etc. did not have such traditions and never dared to confront their overlords.
        But Galich is something strange and does not fit into the general row. Not only that, the Galicians were constantly trying to indicate something to their prince, but also hesitating a little, invited themselves to be a ruler, for example, a Hungarian prince. And the case with Kormilichich is generally unique.
        In addition, let’s forget again about the Bokhov princes. Although personally I am inclined to believe that they were Rurikovich, but there is an opinion that they were not even Slavs, that is, in general, some kind of foreign phenomenon in the heart of the Old Russian state.
        So here the question is very difficult.
        1. arturpraetor 25 May 2020 20: 30 New
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          Quote: Trilobite Master
          The general rule is that older cities have wider traditions of democracy, a stronger veche.

          Yes, there were still strong traditions from the time of tribal relations. And tradition, as practice shows, is everything in Russia. smile
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          New cities, built by the princes as strongholds - Vladimir-Volynsky, Vladimir-on-Klyazma, Moscow, Pereyaslavl-Zalessky, Tver, etc. did not have such traditions and never dared to confront their overlords.

          Nuuuu, I would argue. "New" cities with new communities were able to spin. When Vladimir Mstislavich slightly “threw” the Vladimirites, having arbitrarily left the table, and then tried to return, the townspeople showed him a fig - they say he left, he himself planted another prince, go for a walk. So here, most likely, everything is somewhat more complicated ...
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          But Galich is something strange and does not fit into the general row. Not only that, the Galicians were constantly trying to indicate something to their prince, but also hesitating a little, invited themselves to be a ruler, for example, a Hungarian prince.

          Yes, nothing strange, in principle. Everywhere where an oligarchy is formed, where there is a lot of dough, trash, fumes and sodomy begin. And Galich, no matter what he said, was a very rich city, with a bunch of "profitable" feeds, on which the Galician boyars were enriched. In addition, the city most likely grew from some village to a giant by 20-30 thousand, the population was only 100-150 years old, even by the XNUMXth century it was still young, it was deprived of many remnants of a tribal system and a more precarious situation forever .. In short, very favorable soil for the emergence of an extremely arrogant and power-hungry boyars. This is precisely the case where the city was not dominated by the community, not by the fragile balance between it and the boyars, but namely that the boyars themselves, moreover, became oligarchs. Is it a joke - considerable profits from trade and crafts. so also saltworks - and salt is then worth its weight in gold! And the boyars were fed for a long time from this matter, as oligarchs from oil feed today. That money was pumped up to the "squirrel" ...
  • Edward Vashchenko 25 May 2020 07: 49 New
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    Thank you dear author for the topic raised.
    But I can not help but make a few conceptual comments.
    First, there are very few sources in the western part of Russia; there are practically no sources for this period. The same Maiorov, who deals with this topic in more detail today, hypothetically deduces many points, there are very not bad data from archeology, but they do not add anything in terms of the narrative.
    The second important point, in the list of historiography, I emphasize historiography, and not sources (the sources we have for this period are annals and archeology, grafitti, birch bark, etc.), you indicated the contemporary works of Mayorov and his teacher I.Ya. Froyanova, who developed in detail the concept of social relations in Russia of this period.
    By the way, Grushevsky and his views, mentioned in a previous article and debates, of course, in the XNUMXst century, in many respects already largely a virtue of historiography, science has taken seriously far ahead of his views.
    In this framework, there is no need to talk about any fragmentation; Russia or the “Rurikovich empire” was a confederation of subordinate tribes, where the northern tribes appeared together with the hegemonic Rus, and later the “Rus” went to Kiev, to the glades.
    In the state plan, these are territories with a pre-state, pre-class structure. And this applies to the entire territory of Eastern Europe. The community did not sparkle with colors - it was the core of everything. Period X - XI century - the time of the collapse of tribal relations and the transition to a territorial community.

    Without an understanding of these fundamental concepts, the whole story seems to be blurred, confused, turned into a story "from Karamzin" about the princes' trips back and forth, and again about "feudal fragmentation."
    However, this is less relevant to this work.
    Best regards
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 May 2020 08: 01 New
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      Good morning Edward.
      In the state plan, these are territories with a pre-state, pre-class structure. And this applies to the entire territory of Eastern Europe. The community did not sparkle with colors - it was the core of everything. Period X - XI century - the time of the collapse of tribal relations and the transition to a territorial community.

      This in my head spun, but could not express in human language! Thank!!!
      1. Edward Vashchenko 25 May 2020 08: 19 New
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        Good morning,
        hi
      2. tihonmarine 25 May 2020 09: 05 New
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        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        This in my head spun, but could not express in human language! Thank!

        I also support this opinion.
    2. arturpraetor 25 May 2020 14: 55 New
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      Quote: Edward Vashchenko
      By the way, Grushevsky and his views, mentioned in a previous article and debates, of course, in the XNUMXst century, in many respects already largely a virtue of historiography, science has taken seriously far ahead of his views.

      By itself. But this does not make Grushevsky completely unsuitable. I would not have indicated him in the list of sources if I had not constantly met references or discussion of his theses in the works of the same Mayorov. Not regularly, but still not uncommon, and for other authors too - in this case, deleting Grushevsky from the list of sources would be somewhat ... Inappropriate. Although I did not take practically any information from this material for this cycle. More precisely, I can’t even recall anything specifically, but it’s possible that it’s sclerosis laughing
      Quote: Edward Vashchenko
      In this framework, there is no need to talk about any fragmentation; Russia or the “Rurikovich empire” was a confederation of subordinate tribes, where the northern tribes appeared together with the hegemonic Rus, and later the “Rus” went to Kiev, to the glades.

      Dear colleague, you understand that if I said in the body of the article that “there was no single Russia”, and further down the list, I would have been anathematized and “ordered” by a part of the local public that is not particularly skepticism and analysis. me to the killer? request That’s why you have to beat around the bush, describing Russia as essentially a highly developed confederation of tribes, but not to point it out directly. I myself fully share this theory, since I began to come to it even before I became acquainted with the works of respected Froyanov and Mayorov.
      Quote: Edward Vashchenko
      The community did not sparkle with colors - it was the core of everything. Period X - XI century - the time of the collapse of tribal relations and the transition to a territorial community.

      Let's just say that my views are somewhat ... Different from what is voiced by Froyanov and Mayorov on this part. Perhaps due to the fact that I, as Aishnik, used to see the forks and opportunities that were not realized. IMHO, in the time of Vladimir and Yaroslav, the community was already beginning to gradually lose its role, yielding to the state - but after the death of the latter, strife began, and the process was roughly interrupted right in the middle of the way. That is, while maintaining centralized power in Russia, communities would quickly leave the stage or degenerate into something new, but in the current political conditions, they unexpectedly received a powerful impetus for development and renewed their appearance and role. Therefore, he wrote that the communities suddenly "began to play with colors." And then the process of merging small tribal communities into territorial ones, having common interests throughout the princedom-land, has just gone on.

      However, who am I to argue with serious and respected historians? This is all nothing more than personal opinion and theory.
      1. Edward Vashchenko 25 May 2020 18: 00 New
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        Artem,
        Thank you for the detailed and very clear answer, we have no particular discrepancies in this.
        As colleagues pointed out, and they are not alone, I am “fooled” here by excessive academics, and a different work experience allows me sometimes to be too categorical.
        Dear colleague, you understand that if I said in the body of the article that “there was no single Russia”, and further down the list, I would have been anathematized and “ordered” by a part of the local public that is not particularly skepticism and analysis. me to the killer?

        YOU are certainly right, but, frankly, I continue the Slavic cycle - I will write about it, however, and in it I constantly bring to these points, unfortunately, many do not hear this, so there is work to be done.
        My opinion, in no case do I impose on you, the historian is sometimes forced to write against the will of the public, does the astronomer do this?
        However, this has nothing to do with the topic of our easy discussion.
        Yours faithfully,
        Edward
        PS And thanks for the answers!
        1. arturpraetor 25 May 2020 18: 32 New
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          Quote: Edward Vashchenko
          YOU are certainly right, but, frankly, I continue the Slavic cycle - I will write about it, however, and in it I constantly bring to these points, unfortunately, many do not hear this, so there is work to be done.

          Good luck in this difficult matter. hi I do not always directly voice my thoughts, because I strongly dislike conflicts, they morally oppress me, and to prove something to someone when he has a question of faith .... In general, the lesson is not for me. Even the current cycle is only an opinion, not a statement that it was. For, of course, I believe that I am right in my statements, but as a rule the picture that looms in my head can be very different from the usual one for the public, which is why conflicts arise - about the ancestral home, about the community, about the infantry of the Russians . Sometimes such conflicts are resolved to mutual satisfaction, and come down to a completely constructive discussion. And sometimes not ...
          Quote: Edward Vashchenko
          My opinion, in no case do I impose on you, the historian is sometimes forced to write against the will of the public, does the astronomer do this?

          History is generally an interesting thing: guessing with the wishes of the public is unrealistic. Especially in the topwar, where a wide selection of people with completely different views.
          Quote: Edward Vashchenko
          And thanks for the answers!

          Thank you for reading and commenting. hi
          1. Trilobite Master 25 May 2020 20: 17 New
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            Colleagues, reading the materials of your discussions is both pleasant and helpful. Thank.
  • Andrei Nikolaevich 25 May 2020 07: 59 New
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    Return Volyn to the Poles. She's like a lady with a venous disease. With whom it draws closer, the problems begin. Let the local Papuans Poles educate, as in the old days. You look and grow wiser. What I doubt ..
  • knn54 25 May 2020 08: 31 New
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    1.Volyn got its name from the ancient city of Volyn and the Volyn tribe (Buzhan and Duleby) with the main city, Vladimir Volynsky, occupied places on the right bank of the Western Bug and extended through the upper reaches of the Pripyat to the Southern Bug. Since DEEP antiquity, it was subordinated to the Kiev princes.
    2. The Galician land consisted of two parts: mountainous and flat. The mountainous part was located on the eastern slopes of the Carpathians and the main city had Galich on the river. Dniester. The plain part extended to the north, to the Western Bug, and was called the “Cherven cities”, named after the ancient city of Cherven with its suburbs.
    As the far outskirts of the Russian land, the Galician land was not attractive to the princes.
    Only at the end of the 11th century the great-grandchildren (essentially outcasts) of Yaroslav the Wise will form a principality with the capital in the city of Galich.
    At the end of the 12th century after the death of Yaroslav Osmomysl, unrest began in Galich and the family of the Galician princes ceased in them. The Volyn prince Roman, father of Daniil Galitsky, took control of the Galician principality. A ONE significant Galician-Volyn principality was formed, and in the “future” the kingdom.
    Geographical-South-Western Russia.
    1. Bar1 25 May 2020 08: 38 New
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      Quote: knn54
      Volyn got its name from the ancient city of Volyn and the Volyn tribe

      Well, this is understandable, Volyn is from Volyn, Kiev is from Kiy, the Caspian is from Caspian, Moscow is just not clear from whom.
      And then these Volyn people what? So you can throw stones for a long time.
      - Volyn is a will?
      Free people, like
      -Wilful -will
      quite in Russian.
      1. tihonmarine 25 May 2020 09: 07 New
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        Quote: Bar1
        Well this is understandable, Volyn is from Volyn, Kiev is from Kiy, the Caspian is from Caspian, Moscow is just not clear from whom

        Sumerians speak from Muscovites.
        1. Bar1 25 May 2020 09: 17 New
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          Quote: tihonmarine
          Quote: Bar1
          Well this is understandable, Volyn is from Volyn, Kiev is from Kiy, the Caspian is from Caspian, Moscow is just not clear from whom

          Sumerians speak from Muscovites.

          not the other way around.
      2. Trilobite Master 25 May 2020 13: 31 New
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        Quote: Bar1
        Volyn from Volyn

        The British Newcomers irrefutably proved that the name "Volhynia" comes from the English word "wall" - a wall. Bring back the original British wallyn lands to their rightful owners!
        They proved the origin of the name Kiev from the English. key [ki:] is the key, and the Caspian Sea is the essence of Coast of Peace - the shore of the world.
        Well, as for Moscow, then everything is simple ^ Moscow = Mascow = Mass Cow, that is, a "fat cow", a city of cattle breeders.
        British linguistics is irrefutable, so le sculpt here hunchback and do not mislead the people. Or refute their construction and do not forget the links to the studio, otherwise it does not count!
    2. rich 25 May 2020 09: 00 New
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      Cherven cities - in Russian chronicles the name of a group of cities in the upper reaches of the Western Bug and the upper reaches of the Styr River. The name comes from the city of Cherven.
      They were first mentioned in 981, when Vladimir I Svyatoslavich conquered them from the Poles. In 1018, Svyatopolk returned them to Boleslaw I in gratitude for their help in seizing power in Kiev, but in 1031 the Poles returned them in exchange for help in conquering Mazovia. During the period of feudal fragmentation, they were part of the Volyn and Galician-Volyn principality, in the XIV century they were again captured by Poland. The region of Cherven cities was subsequently known as Chervonnaya Rus. Today, these cities are located in Poland, Ukraine and Belarus.
      Included are Cherven, Volhynia, Hill, Belz, Brody, Suteysk, Komov, Yaroslavl, Ugrovesk, Schekarev, Pillars, Vsevolozh, Plesnesk, Vereshchin, Berestye, Kamenetz, Vasilkov, Dorogichin, Volodava, Melnyk, Bryneshev, Przemysl, Reshlya, Reshlya , Lyubachev, Sanok, Perevorsk and others.
      1. rich 25 May 2020 09: 03 New
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        In historical science, the problem of the localization of Cherven (and thereby other Cherven cities) was the subject of many hypotheses: over the Dniester - Chervonogorod, near Kholm / Helm (Cherneev - Cherneyev (Polish)), and finally according to the results of archaeological research that was carried out in 1950— 1960s, Cherven is localized in Poland near the modern village of Chermno.
        photo 1 Cherven hillfort
    3. Operator 25 May 2020 11: 03 New
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      The author stubbornly uses his fantasy name “Volyn” instead of the historically substantiated “South-Western Russia”, “Galician-Volyn Principality” and “Red Russia”.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 May 2020 11: 18 New
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        Quote: Operator
        The author stubbornly uses his fantasy name “Volyn” instead of the historically substantiated “South-Western Russia”, “Galician-Volyn Principality” and “Red Russia”.

        Good morning, Andrey! You yourself answered the problem. There are historical names, there are modern ones! In principle, we all understand what the Author writes about!
        If you take in general. Southwest Russia is a broader concept than the Galician-Volyn principality, and Chervonnaya Russia is more ancient.
        If I describe the events before the Pugachev riot and I use the definition of the Urals, and not Stone or Stone Belt. You will understand me.
        Regards, Vlad!
        1. Operator 25 May 2020 11: 32 New
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          The author’s goal is not to modernize historical names, but to try to unfoundedly argue his hypothesis about “Volyn” as the center of the origin of the Slavs (see the first article) laughing
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 May 2020 11: 36 New
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            Andrew! Again, "money for fish" !!! Read Artyom's comments on the first article.
            "I also destroyed the church"?
          2. arturpraetor 25 May 2020 15: 04 New
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            And juggling again. In the comments on the previous article, I already said that the material before the pre-Rurik times turned out by chance, and was not originally planned. But yes, of course, I want Volyn to be the cradle of not only the Slavs, but also humanity!
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 May 2020 16: 26 New
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              Quote: arturpraetor
              And juggling again. In the comments on the previous article, I already said that the material before the pre-Rurik times turned out by chance, and was not originally planned. But yes, of course, I want Volyn to be the cradle of not only the Slavs, but also humanity!

              Duc and cats by direct secret ballot in Volyn chose their servant! Dogs still cannot forgive this !!! wassat
              1. 3x3zsave 25 May 2020 20: 53 New
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                Here are just no need to touch the dogs !!! am laughing
                1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 May 2020 22: 10 New
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                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  Here are just no need to touch the dogs !!! am laughing

                  Man, especially for you tomorrow, I’ll take a picture of how Mom’s cat Stesha sleeps badly in a doghouse !!! And Mosya’s dog guards this impudent moustached snout with true dog zeal !!!
                  1. 3x3zsave 25 May 2020 22: 21 New
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                    I will be grateful!
                    The purpose of dogs is to love and guard. Motto: "Loyalty (to people, do not understand)"
                    1. Liam 25 May 2020 22: 25 New
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                      Quote: 3x3zsave
                      I will be grateful!
                      The purpose of dogs is to love and guard. Motto: "Loyalty (to people, do not understand)"

                      Our weaknesses are a continuation of our strengths.
                      Dog fidelity - has a negative connotation when applied to people
                      1. 3x3zsave 26 May 2020 07: 17 New
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                        negative connotation
                        This is envy.
                      2. Liam 26 May 2020 07: 41 New
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                        It is unlikely that people tend to endow and project the motives and manifestations of their emotions on dogs. But the dog is not a person and is not endowed with such emotions. Its behavior, in strict accordance with the science of Darwin’s grandfather, is determined only by instinct and survival
                      3. 3x3zsave 26 May 2020 07: 48 New
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                        From the point of view of the next bearer of the mind, human emotions are also a manifestation of animal instincts, because they do not carry a rational grain.
                      4. Liam 26 May 2020 07: 52 New
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                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        From the point of view of the next mind carrier

                        What is this?)
                        Dogs in the vast majority of cases get used to the new owner quite easily and quickly. They are enough to feed and take care of them. And who exactly is not very important for them
                      5. 3x3zsave 26 May 2020 08: 00 New
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                        What is this?)
                        Artificial intelligence. I am a supporter of the Kurzweil theory.
  • arturpraetor 25 May 2020 15: 03 New
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    Quote: Operator
    The author stubbornly uses his fantasy name “Volyn” instead of the historically substantiated “South-Western Russia”, “Galician-Volyn Principality” and “Red Russia”.

    Oh, the Great Juggler of all time appeared!

    For those who are in the tank, or those who are interested in why I say one way or another:
    - Volyn. The root of this term goes to the name of the tribes that lived in this territory, so this term is applicable to the territory at any time after the IV-V centuries. Therefore, it is used widely, and is absolutely historically justified, although the comrade above does not think so for some reason.
    - Southwest Russia. This territory became Russia after the accession of Vladimir. Before that, it would be incorrect to call her Russia.
    - Galician-Volyn principality. It appeared in 1199. Using this term before this date is incorrect.
    - Pure Russia. She is Cherven cities. Does not include the entire territory of the Southwest.
    Well, of course, I can alternate all these terms when it will be appropriate to use them, since there are requirements of the literary style, and repetitions of the same too often are bad manners.
  • rich 25 May 2020 09: 34 New
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    From the ancient Galicia-Volyn principality of the XNUMXth — beginning of the XNUMXth century, defenses remained, the so-called
    "towers of the Volyn type (" pillars "), characteristic of Western Russia - the Galicia-Volyn principality and under its influence Gorodensky and Turovo-Pinsk principalities.

    Only two stone towers have survived to our time - in the Belarusian city of Kamenets and the Polish village of Stolpye in the Kholmshchyna. The ruins of the tower in Belavino near Helm were destroyed during the Second World War.
    Photo 1. Kamenets tower the most well-preserved defensive tower of the Volyn type and at the same time the highest. Built in 1271–1288

    Photo 2. Tower in Stolpje the medieval tower of the “Volyn type” in the village of Stolpye in the Kholmshchina, at a distance of 8 kilometers from Chelm. The oldest stone building in eastern Poland, a monument of architecture of Ancient Russia.

    Photo 3. Pyatnichanskaya tower Pyatnichanskaya tower in the village of Pyatnichany. monument of architecture of Ancient Russia. XIII - mid XV century

    Photo 4. Kholm tower monument of architecture of Ancient Russia. 1240s

    As P.A. Rappoport wrote, the construction of towers was a reflection of the siege tactics that changed at the beginning of the XNUMXth century, which instead of passive became more active, using stone-throwing machines and assaults, which, in turn, influenced the organization of defense and the construction of fortresses. There was a need for the construction of fortified stone towers, standing in the system of wood-earth fortifications, from which it was possible to conduct circular fire “near the city”. The towers made it possible to significantly increase the firing range, reduce dead (unshootable) zones and conduct circular, and in some cases, apparently flanking, shelling of the most threatened areas from the floor of the fortresses. In the conditions of the Mongol invasion, one of the few regions of Russia in which new defensive towers could be built was Galicia-Volyn Rus.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 May 2020 11: 42 New
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      I will supplement it. Hill and Kamenetz are practically the only fortress cities that survived during the invasion of the Tatar-Mongols!
      Regarding stone architecture, in addition to South-Western Russia, it has been preserved in the Novgorod and Pskov lands. As a fact, Danila Aleksandrovich welcomed Pskov craftsmen during the construction of a stone church in Moscow.
      1. Pane Kohanku 25 May 2020 13: 20 New
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        Regarding stone architecture, in addition to South-Western Russia, it has been preserved in the Novgorod and Pskov lands.

        Exactly. Novgorod and Pskov lead in the number of churches, a number of them are pre-Mongol. Many more modern churches there stand on old foundations - simply because the previous building either collapsed or burned down.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 May 2020 14: 03 New
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          Nikolay, in this case, after the invasion of Batu, the stone architecture of the Vladimir-Suzdal lands dies! Until the Mongol Intercession-on-Nerl, the Dmitrievsky Cathedral in Vladimir, the top of the Stone Building, for me it is a reality marker yoke, which has dipped a number of crafts from the history of Russia. Something was restored, but how much was lost forever !!!
          1. Pane Kohanku 25 May 2020 14: 30 New
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            Something was restored, but how much was lost forever !!!

            in this sense, the Northwest was lucky, there the canons were not violated.
            By the way, here is another object that has radically changed the look. There were three cathedrals of Hagia Sophia in Russia - in Kiev, Novgorod, and in Polotsk - the smallest of them stood there. Here is his model, the Polotsk Cathedral, in its original form.

            During the Northern War, a powder depot was built in it. Long, short, but there was an explosion. Naturally, the cathedral was swept away. By the middle of the 18th century, a new foundation was rebuilt on the old foundation, even sections of the old masonry walls remained. But already (feel the influence of Poland-Lithuania?) In the Vilnius baroque style! So he remained.

            And here is another Polotsk rarity - the Transfiguration Church, XII century. This has retained its original appearance, but the frescoes suffered terribly. All photos are mine, 2017.
    2. arturpraetor 25 May 2020 15: 05 New
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      On the pillars will be further, I have not yet reached those times. There are many interesting things in general related to military affairs under the Romanovichi hi
  • Operator 25 May 2020 10: 51 New
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    The map of Ruska Zemlya was especially delivered as of the 10-11th century - without Novgorod and Novgorod Land laughing

    Along the way, the author does not understand the meaning of the word “community” (full name “territorial / rural community”), its place in the structure of society (between the clan and the tribe / principality), the way of governing (the council of elders of the clans and customary law) and the organization of the community militia .

    And also ignores the oligarchic system (in the person of the boyars, merchants and wealthy citizens) in Russian cities of that period, telling about an unknown phenomenon in history - the urban community.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 May 2020 12: 00 New
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      Here you can argue, according to the research of Fortyanov, the urban community in Russia was.
      Your common mistake with Artem is that you are trying to see exactly the western-style urban community. The domestic community did not know such frills, but evolved independently preserving the tribal and tribal institutions and acquiring the feudal system. The generic trait accumulated communal traits of the territorial volost administration, and even at some point the prerequisites for the division of the shop began to appear. But everything was brought down by the invasion of Batu. In the end, we got the Institute of Mashiness.
      The main marker of the tribal community “every man is a warrior” played a significant role both during the formation of Russia and in the ensuing civil strife.
      Novgorod, Vladimir-Suzdal, Pskov militias more than once or twice put an end to the battlefields! To deny the role of the Galicia-Volyn militia I think is not productive.
      I already mentioned above, Kholm and Kamenetz resisted the invasion of the Tatar-Mongol! I think this is the merit of their militias!
      1. Operator 25 May 2020 14: 02 New
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        I already wrote what a territorial community was like during the tribal system and at the beginning of its decomposition: a collegial self-government body of several geographically close clans in rural areas (a council of clan elders with advisers from elders - guardians of customs).

        Russian cities in the 10-11th century were former tribal centers, among whose inhabitants there was no clan division, therefore there was no such self-government body as a "community"; the cities were ruled by the oligarchy (boyars, merchants, prosperous artisans) together with the prince - just like in any other medieval European city.

        The terminological problem is that all folkhistorics rested their horn on a community of the 19th century, which degenerated to the synonym “population of a particular village / village, consisting of separate families and participating in the periodic redistribution of farmland”. Self-government in such a community consisted of an appointed headman and the principle of mutual responsibility of all heads of families.
    2. rich 25 May 2020 12: 02 New
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      Operator: A map of Ruska Zemlya was especially delivered as of the 10-11th century - without Novgorod and Novgorod Land laughing

      Yes, it seems that on this map there are Novgorod, and Pskov, and Ladoga, and Izborsk request

      PS. minus is not mine
      1. Operator 25 May 2020 13: 52 New
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        I apologize - there is Novgorod, there is no Novgorod Land with a border along the White Sea.
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 May 2020 14: 44 New
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        Andrew map 10-11 centuries! Dashing Novgorod fellows have not yet reached the White Sea and the Stone, have not paid tribute to furs from the Miracles of Zavolnaya, Samoyadi, Perm and Zyryan !!!
        Here the 12th century will come and in the map given by Artem there will be an extensive hatching of the lap lands of the Lord Veliky Novgorod !!!
    3. arturpraetor 25 May 2020 15: 08 New
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      Read Froyanov and Mayorov. They currently have the most substantiated and fundamental research on the topic of the socio-political structure of Russia. True, you will not like these works, since it does not say that the Operator is absolutely right.

      It was not I who drew the map, I took it first of all in order to illustrate the approximate territories of the Volyn land during its accession to Russia. Of course, he didn’t look at the North, of course. But yes, the Titanic, too, I drowned, I repent laughing
      1. 3x3zsave 25 May 2020 21: 22 New
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        But yes, the Titanic, too, I drowned, I repent
        This is what we came up with Windows
        this we defaulted
        We played live beatles
        and aging Adrian Paul "(C)laughing
  • Engineer 25 May 2020 13: 18 New
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    Still scolding the article. But not the author)
    There is very little Galician-Volyn land
    The private has dissolved in general.
    The author touched upon global and debatable topics, such as the role of the medieval infantry in Russia, ladder law and the invitation of princes, etc. Along the way, he pulled the antique hoplites. All this is superfluous in my opinion.
    had analogues in Western Europe, which can be called the Flemish city police or the Scottish infantry

    These are completely different things. The Flemish militia is primarily a guild. The Scottish is a clan, and the aristocracy often becomes on foot with commoners.
    In Novgorod - the militia at the ends-districts. That is, these are units united by the neighborhood. But not a bunch of colleagues or relatives.
    Here is the formulation of questions to which I would try to give an answer.
    Volyn land - the periphery or local center in the 9-11 centuries? Comparison of economics and military power.
    List the cases when the principality acted as an independent force.
    Local centers of Volyn land, position, comparative characteristic
    Show the status of Galich- (at that time insignificant as for me)
    About the development of Volyn itself is not said. Prerequisites for further growth are not named

    Water.
    In no case do not want to offend the author.
    1. arturpraetor 25 May 2020 15: 20 New
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      Quote: Engineer
      There is very little Galician-Volyn land
      The private has dissolved in general.

      You see, what’s the matter here ... Particular is the social-political structure of Russia at that time. That is, roughly speaking, a description of how the mechanism of society works. Without understanding this, it will be difficult to correctly understand the following description - therefore I had to make a remark on half the article. And this will come more than once. Without an explanation of the nature of the course of events, it will be difficult to explain the events themselves. Therefore, I prefer to be distracted by related topics directly during the story, and not then repeat important points 100500 times in the comments.

      Yeah i'm a bore laughing
      Quote: Engineer
      Along the way, he pulled the antique hoplites.

      This is just a language of analogies, so that people can understand who is kudy, and what’s what. True, I only now realized that the general reader may not know the basis of the formation of hoplite groups either ...
      Quote: Engineer
      These are completely different things.

      Different, but similar. That of the Flemings, that of the Scots, that the urban community has one root - community, social proximity. People who form units know each other, have common goals and values. This is an important requirement for increasing the organization of infantry, without which it is a simple rabble, unable to withstand any serious enemy. For example, if you pull people in different villages in Flanders, in Russia, give out weapons and put them in operation, they will not have the same cohesion and unity as that of the guild guards or members of one community. Therefore, they can easily be broken up and broken.
      Quote: Engineer
      That is, these are units united by the neighborhood. But not a bunch of colleagues or relatives.

      Neighborhood within the community. This is somewhat different than modern relations between neighbors. smile That is why I spoke about the hoplite phalanx. There, city dwellers, also seemingly just neighbors, formed a staunch infantry that kept the system and maintained unity. And this is not my analogy, but Mayorov’s EMNIP.
      Quote: Engineer
      Volyn land - the periphery or local center in the 9-11 centuries? Comparison of economics and military power.

      With a lack of information?
      Quote: Engineer
      List the cases when the principality acted as an independent force.

      Again, with a lack of information?
      Quote: Engineer
      Local centers of Volyn land, position, comparative characteristic

      This, in my opinion, is already a strong bias towards the details. Here an attempt to cover the entire history of the region as part of Russia, and the editors even looked askance at 15 articles. In this case - only the course "gallop across Europe"
      Quote: Engineer
      Show the status of Galich- (at that time insignificant as for me)

      About which until 1141 nothing is known, but the story is still about earlier times? smile
      Quote: Engineer
      About the development of Volyn itself is not said. Prerequisites for further growth are not named

      Because it is told about its accession to Russia, its HISTORY as a set of events, and the ground is being prepared for the following articles.
      1. Engineer 25 May 2020 15: 41 New
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        What the Flemings have, the Scots have, the urban community has one root - community, social proximity

        I fundamentally disagree. The Scots have close intimacy, not social.
        That is why I spoke about the hoplite phalanx. There, city dwellers, also seemingly just neighbors, formed a staunch infantry that kept the system and maintained unity. And this is not my analogy, but Mayorov’s EMNIP.

        The analogy is unimportant. The ancient phalanx was rallied primarily by polis morality, to which Europe did not grow up in the 13th century. This is a very special phenomenon. In one system, landowners, children of major merchants, public works contractors, philosophers and public figures. Descendants of the most ancient clans, leading the genealogy from the gods and children of artisans dropping out in people. There began Iphicrates, the son of a shoemaker. The material basis of the phalanx is the property qualification. Moral- polis worldview. We are the Athenians, the children of Kekrop, the tribesmen of Theseus. We Thebans are the descendants of those who fought against the Seven.
        Polis morality - an exceptionally high level of self-awareness
        In the case of ancient Russia, this is a territorial, regional, small-town proximity. There are no clans and there is nothing similar. The shop structure is a very late tracing paper from Europe, although there were mostly craft streets.
        1. arturpraetor 25 May 2020 15: 49 New
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          Quote: Engineer
          The Scots have close intimacy, not social.

          This is when several thousand people stand on foot, and they are all close relatives to each other? smile
          Quote: Engineer
          There are no clans and there is nothing similar.

          This is where our fundamental disagreement with you lies. You think nothing of the kind happened. I agree with Froyanov and Mayorov, who are called “communities of Russian clans” as a sort of community — a set of people who solve the main issues with common efforts, are accustomed to mutual assistance and unity, and therefore are able to hold the order firmly, comparing favorably with the system of rural militias who they do not know each other well, and are not particularly inclined to be heroic. Just like the cohesive guilds and the cohesive clan infantry of the Scots. And the cohesive hoplites of the Greek polis. The resistance of the infantry is obtained only in this way, by social proximity and unity - or drill, but far from drill ...

          However, I am not saying that it was exactly that way - I myself simply support this theory. But you have every right to support other theories, and you may well be right, but I could be wrong. This can be the end of this topic - well, tea, not some of the commentators noted here who are not nice to life without confirmation of their absolute rightness laughing
          1. Engineer 25 May 2020 15: 57 New
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            This is when several thousand people stand on foot, and they are all close relatives to each other?

            Half so). Half of relatives, only close distant, seventh water on jelly. But everything matters to the Scots. Remember Rob Roy Walter Scott.? The second half - the same relatives from the traditionally friendly clan (new)
            This is one of the reasons why there were often several shiltrons (three at the time of Bannockburn)
            However, I am not saying that it was exactly that way - I myself simply support this theory. But you have every right to support other theories, and you may well be right, but I could be wrong. This can be the end of this topic - well, tea, not some of the commentators noted here who are not nice to life without confirmation of their absolute rightness

            Well, how then to holivar ??? laughing
        2. Mihaylov 25 May 2020 16: 18 New
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          The analogy is unimportant. The ancient phalanx was rallied primarily by polis morality, to which Europe did not grow up in the 13th century. This is a very special phenomenon.

          And I will support the author, in my humble opinion, the analogy with the phalanx is appropriate, morality is morality, and the principles of acquisition are similar based on the territorial community, that is, something like this:
          Quote: Engineer
          In Novgorod - the militia at the ends-districts. That is, these are units united by the neighborhood. But not a bunch of colleagues or relatives.

          Recall Sparta: 5 "big suckers", at least initially, most likely - the representation of 5 territorial units, those villages of which Sparta consisted.
          1. Engineer 25 May 2020 16: 41 New
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            Here the trap is that, if desired, everything can be reduced to territorial acquisition.
            The workshops have a specific localization, which means territorial acquisition in Flemish
            Clans have their own territory - territorial acquisition in Scotland
            Militia at the city ends - territorial acquisition in Novgorod
            Etc.
            Discas went precisely for morality. What unites all these militias?
            In each case, I see my sociocultural phenomenon. Each phenomenon has its own genesis. There are more differences than similarities.
            Corporate (guild) moral in Bruges
            Regional (let it be urban communal, no objections) in Novgorod
            The blood relationship morality (kinship remained the most powerful social factor) in Scotland
            Polisna in ancient Greece
            1. arturpraetor 25 May 2020 17: 02 New
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              And morality rests on the awareness of community. Within a clan, policy, workshop, or community. The most important thing is that this association of people should exist and be close for a long time. The community gives such intimacy, gives morality.

              In all the sociocultural phenomena you have indicated, the essence is the same - people who know each other in peacetime, are close to each other, live close and do common things, fight on foot better, hold the line better than randomly selected people who did not know each other before as they dressed in armor and picked up a spear. This is directly stitched in the mentality, in the way of life - the community members know each other and help each other all their lives. Like clan relatives. Like the guilds. Like citizens of the policy. Moreover, without the recognition of community, there would be no clans or workshops - so, a selection of people. Medieval collectivism, if I may say so - its origins may be different, but the essence always remains the same. This is all "natural" strong infantry. "Artificial" is obtained by training a large mass of people who are randomly recruited anywhere and at the beginning of training do not know each other.
              1. Engineer 25 May 2020 17: 12 New
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                In all the sociocultural phenomena you have indicated, the essence is the same - people who know each other in peacetime, are close to each other, live close and do common things, fight on foot better, hold the line better than randomly selected people

                So who is arguing. Here are just the reasons and essence of the community in each case is different. A clothmaker and a blacksmith living in neighboring houses will never be as close to Bruges as they are to Novgorod. Some have corporate discord up to massacres, while others have community closeness. A Highlander will despise the inhabitants of the lowlands to whom he sells wool, even though they live a couple of kilometers. But a distant relative (with a common name heh) the hell out of where he recognizes instantly.
                Moreover, without the recognition of community, there would be no clans or workshops - so, a selection of people.

                Again the key disagreement. Your consciousness determines being)
                1. arturpraetor 25 May 2020 17: 27 New
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                  Quote: Engineer
                  Again the key disagreement. Your consciousness determines being)

                  Nope. Just the very essence of such phenomena as the clan and the workshop rests on the awareness of community. The clan and the workshop primarily appears in the minds of people who, because of either consanguinity or joint labor and earnings, recognize themselves as socially close people and are ready to help each other cope with the challenges of our mortal world. Without this awareness, without tradition or sober calculation, there will be no clan - if its potential members ignore family ties. There will be no workshop, the workshops will both come together to work together and run back to their homes to craft, if they do not realize that it will be more profitable for them to work together.

                  There will not be a strong infantry system - the desire to keep the formation, not to run away, not to show the back to the enemy is much more likely to arise when the infantryman stands side by side with his neighbors, relatives, close friends in the community. A kind of subconscious mutual responsibility, when "poke" and hit in the mud with a face in front of those with whom you live near, is unacceptable. The strong infantry system, the main sign of its quality, is formed primarily in the minds of infantrymen - so maybe you are right. In these cases, people's awareness of something is more primary than its actual appearance. It’s like a rational person - he either realizes himself rational, or remains a monkey, no matter what his existence is.

                  The community is a close phenomenon, only a large one. It can be compared with a clan, where instead of blood relationship, the determining factor is the awareness of the common interests of people living next to each other. A beat and dad to beat more fun smile If we take into account the remnants of tribal traditions, then the community just turns out to be quite cohesive. This is not a collection of random people, not a selection of "man to man is a wolf." I have already pointed out above that, IMHO, communities in the same X-XI centuries should have lost their role, crushed - but only if they retained a strong central authority, or with the advent of conditionally classical feudalism (hereinafter abundant holivar on the subject of what feudalism is). Because of the strife, we had unique conditions that except us existed in Sweden (where, by the way, there were also “evil” infantrymen-communes), and the community remained strong and highly organized. Therefore, the factor of community of people is preserved.
  • Trilobite Master 25 May 2020 13: 39 New
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    I was carried away by the controversy, I forgot to thank the author for the article. Artyom, thanks! hi smile
    Because of some characters, the actual content of a good article has no time to discuss. smile
    I will re-read later and engage in criticism. smile
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 25 May 2020 14: 48 New
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      Quote: Trilobite Master
      I was carried away by the controversy, I forgot to thank the author for the article. Artyom, thanks! hi smile
      Because of some characters, the actual content of a good article has no time to discuss. smile
      I will re-read later and engage in criticism. smile

      Yeah, if in fact - I’ll come in the evening and distribute to all the matryoshkas by deserved earrings, well, lyuley in general !!! lol
    2. arturpraetor 25 May 2020 15: 43 New
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      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Artyom, thanks!

      Thank you for reading hi

      Immediately I apologize to many colleagues that I can not respond to their comments. There is work, plus other projects, plus a lot of other things - and 40-50 comments already on the move, even before I came to the site under the article. Somehow this is the most, I do not have time to do everything belay
      1. Trilobite Master 25 May 2020 16: 06 New
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        Toward evening, we will analyze the article on the shelves, Artem. Now there is enough time only for swearing with inadequacies. smile
        At the first reading, several questions arose, it was necessary to formulate, think, tighten the materiel ... smile
        To start the discussion, the first question is about Prince Rostislav Vladimirovich.
        the grandson of Yaroslav the Wise considered his position too precarious and unpromising, because in 1064 he left the princely table in Vladimir-Volynsky and went to Tmutarakan.

        It is unlikely in Russia that then, that later, there was a place less attractive to the prince than Tmutarakan. And to voluntarily change the Volyn principality to it, next to Kiev ... more than doubtful. I believe that Tmutarakan, in order to realize his ambitions, Rostislav chose exclusively as the point farthest from his greedy uncles, where it would be most difficult for them to get it. And from Vladimir-Volynsky they most likely explicitly “asked” him - a too fat piece for a young man, and even without a “roof” among greedy relatives ... smile
        1. arturpraetor 25 May 2020 16: 18 New
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          Quote: Trilobite Master
          To start the discussion, the first question is about Prince Rostislav Vladimirovich.

          It is possible that you are right. Perhaps even most likely. True, as for a man who decided to escape from his uncles, Rostislav still chose a place that wasn’t the most successful - he still had to deal with his uncle laughing
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          And from Vladimir-Volynsky they most likely explicitly “asked” him - a too fat piece for a young man, and even without a “roof” among greedy relatives ...

          But this is a more logical version. Actually, I thought about this during the writing process, but somehow I was in a hurry to go to the Rostislavichi (the topic of the next article), and somewhere (I don’t remember where already) I met the explanation given in the article ... And somehow everything was lost . We assume that this is a lack of style "galloping across Europe" - otherwise I would have been able to get a weighty monograph when trying to consider all the details. I'm trying to justify myself repeat

          By the way, Tmutarakan is not such a bad place. Near the sea, a trade route passes through the Kerch Strait (one of the branches of the Silk Road, which crossed from land to sea in Tan). There, Italians even kept their trading posts. That is, Tmutarakan is a kind of "small Bosphorus" with a "small Constantinople." Not the most disadvantageous place to reign.
  • DDT
    DDT 25 May 2020 21: 55 New
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    Here on the map in large beechAFFs, - "Old Russian state" ... Question, did THEY know that they were Old Russian? drinks drinks
  • Operator 26 May 2020 11: 19 New
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    Quote: arturpraetor
    The root of this term goes to the name of the tribes that inhabited this territory

    On the territory of historical Volhynia, dulebs lived suddenly. Volhynia and Volhynians by the name of the corresponding city - Volhynia (Volny) began to call this territory and population only in the 10th century immediately before entering the Russian Land. Volyn is geographically part of the Ukrainian-Belarusian Polesie (Western Russia) and contrasts sharply in terms of natural and climatic conditions and ethnic composition with Galich, located in the foothills of the Carpathians and originally inhabited by white Croats.

    And yes - the territory of historical Volyn constitutes only a small part of Cherven Russia and is absolutely not identical to the Galician-Volyn principality
    1. arturpraetor 26 May 2020 14: 23 New
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      Quote: Operator
      before entering the Russian Land state

      Is Russian Land the name of the state?
      Quote: Operator
      Volyn is geographically part of the Ukrainian-Belarusian Polesie

      Yes. Within modern borders smile
      Quote: Operator
      And yes - the territory of historical Volyn constitutes only a small part of Cherven Russia and is absolutely not identical to the Galician-Volyn principality

      Firstly, it never dawned on you that the Cherven cities, Chervonnaya Rus are only a small part of the South-West. Later this term was extended by some to the entire region, but in fact it is only the western part on the border with Poland, where the dulebs lived. No one in their right mind regards Volyn and Subcarpathia as a medieval city of Cherven. You take the term from one era, impose it on another - and at the same time try to blame something like me. Are these double standards, or are you just an ignoramus? laughing
      Secondly, when entering the structure of Russia in the X century, all the territories of the South-West formed ONE inheritance. With the capital in Vladimir-Volynsky. Therefore, to call ONE inheritance, while it remains so, Volhynia is quite appropriate, for no one then called it Southwest or Chervona Rus (for there were Cherven cities, which were only part of the territory). The current article covers the history of just ONE inheritance. When it is divided, the Cherven cities, Volyn, and Berestye, and Subcarpathia will be separately mentioned. Oh yes, until the middle of the XII century there was no Galician principality, since the Rostislavichs ruled in the Przemysl principality, which was located on the territory of Subcarpathia and stood out from a single principality with a capital in Vladimir-Volynsky. And only when the capital was transferred to Galich did it appear that the Principality of Galicia. Will you also blame me for this? smile

      If you do not know the story well, pull terms from one era to another, and want everything to be as simplified and understandable for you personally - you have no place in the discussion of these articles. I'm not going to play with you.
      1. Operator 26 May 2020 14: 37 New
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        Russkaya Zemlya (abbreviated as Russia) is a standard term for Russian annals of the pre-Mongol period. As well as, for example, Novgorod Land or Zealand from German chronicles (from the words "see" - sea and "land" - land).

        Chervona Rus is the term from the textbooks on the outskirts (from Polish “Chervony”), the original Russian name is Chervona Rus (from Russian “Chervony”).

        Do not pull the owl (Volhynia) onto the globe (south-west of Russia) and you will be happy laughing
        1. arturpraetor 26 May 2020 14: 44 New
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          Quote: Operator
          Chervona Rus is the term from the textbooks on the outskirts, the correct Russian name is Chervona Rus.

          Only in your imagination. If Chervonnaya Rus is from Ukrainian textbooks, then the Russian word "Chervonets" is also quite a bit for itself. And cho sounds the same smile Or Cherven Russia, or Chervonnaya, or Cherven cities. Although at different times, these terms may have different meanings. Nobody uses the word "Red", except you, not a single dictionary even knows such a word. Does it bother you that it looks like the Ukrainian word, and your gentle Nazi feelings immediately say that this cannot be? smile

          PS In Ukrainian textbooks, this term sounds like "Chervona Rus."
          1. Operator 26 May 2020 14: 47 New
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            Chervonets - originally the name of the Polish gold coin, all of a sudden.
            1. arturpraetor 26 May 2020 14: 50 New
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              Yeah. But the Poles do not know, they called their zloty coins laughing And the old Russian term "Pure Gold", it turns out, is laced with the Poles. Which also do not know about it.

              You with such knowledge in historical terms can not deal with history. You DO NOT KNOW THEM.
              1. Operator 26 May 2020 15: 03 New
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                Zloty is a yellow gold coin, and a chervonets is a gold alloy coin with red copper.

                Learn materiel and you will be happy laughing
                1. arturpraetor 26 May 2020 15: 13 New
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                  Well, find three sources not referring to each other about the Polish gold coins. So that the Poles themselves would call them that, and not about the Russian language, it was written about the Polish chervonets. Because even the search engine when querying "Polish dime" does not produce a single specific result laughing And even a search in Polish does not give any specifics. That is, the Poles that the chervonets is their coin are not in the know.

                  In general, it’s funny to watch a person who is trying to pull the real on his Wishlist, and the real is kicking hard. The original Russian coin - the chervonets - suddenly became Polish! This is most likely because in modern Russian there is no word "red", but in Ukrainian it is. What a mess!
                  1. Operator 26 May 2020 15: 17 New
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                    Chervonets - this is a descriptive Polish, and then the Russian name of any coins from an alloy of gold and copper, and not a specific face value of the coin.
                    1. arturpraetor 26 May 2020 15: 31 New
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                      Well, figs with them, with coins - this is not directly related to the topic. And what directly concerns the topic? That's right, Red Russia. Can you give three sources that are called Pure Russia, without referring to each other? Because the search engine gives a lot of results for “Red”, because there is such a Slovak word, but “Red Russia” refuses to be found at all, and automatically corrects for Red. World conspiracy of Zhidomasons against the Russian language? laughing
                      1. Operator 26 May 2020 15: 47 New
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                        But you yourself are positioning yourself as a researcher of innovations in Russian history - you also have cards in your hands according to the historically correct name of Russian lands bully
                      2. arturpraetor 26 May 2020 15: 50 New
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                        The drain is counted; you cannot provide proofs for your words laughing
                      3. Operator 26 May 2020 15: 52 New
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                        I don’t want to - because of laziness to look for them.
          2. Undecim 26 May 2020 18: 35 New
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            The first Polish gold coin was called czerwony złoty. It began to be minted in 1528. But this is a common name. Officially, the coin was called ducat.
            1. arturpraetor 26 May 2020 18: 58 New
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              Yes, I already found the information. not my most successful example was. However, Chervonnaya Russia (the generally accepted term I don’t even know since when) doesn’t become Chervona (why not? Why Chervona and Chervenskaya?), The search engine stubbornly refuses to find this “Chervona Rus”, and there’s nothing in any historical I didn’t see her request
              1. Undecim 26 May 2020 19: 07 New
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                Сzerwony złoty is not a dime. Chervonets is an exclusively Russian word. And with Red Russia, a friend sculpts a hunchback on the wall. Never mind. There is an established terminology - Chervona Russia and synonyms - Galicia and Cherven cities, used at different times.
                1. arturpraetor 26 May 2020 19: 20 New
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                  That is, I was not mistaken. Well thank you for the clarification hi Although I can still find some specific names for specific regions, this is essentially the material of the following articles. Should I leave something for later? wassat
    2. Undecim 26 May 2020 18: 58 New
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      Pure Russia - the term from the textbooks on the outskirts
      Cameraman, you sculpt a humpback against a wall, but you do it with an academic aplomb. If you follow your logic, then the most modern and largest Russian spelling dictionary of Lopatin is an outskirts textbook.
      1. Operator 26 May 2020 19: 21 New
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        You perfectly understood what I had in mind - most historians of the RI / USSR who specialized in the topic of southwestern Russia were of Little Russian origin, such as Grushevsky and Co., who formed the ideology of Ukrainophilism (used by the Bolsheviks during the so-called indigenousization in the Ukrainian SSR) and included in the Soviet historical circulation terms from the Polish surzhik - he is also the Ukrainian language (not to be confused with Little Russian).
        1. Undecim 26 May 2020 19: 26 New
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          And you decided to overshadow the historians of the Russian Empire and the USSR and introduce a new term into the historical circulation. True, apart from a few people on the VO website, the scientific community has not noticed your attempt.
          1. Operator 26 May 2020 19: 31 New
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            Once you have to start, naturally, not from historians or, all the more, from the VO participants, but from the Ukrainians bully