Yaroslav Osmomysl and the extinction of the first Galician dynasty

Yaroslav Osmomysl and the extinction of the first Galician dynasty

One of the first vivid episodes of the direct confrontation between the prince and the Galician boyars: the burning of Nastasya Chagrovna. Figure Claudius Lebedev


Galich appears in the annals as a devil from a snuffbox. Until 1141 there was no specific mention of him, there is only indirect information that after the death of Vasilka, his eldest son ruled here. There is no specific date for the founding of this city or any stories about it. Nevertheless, by the 1140s, Galich was a large and developed city, in terms of population occupying one of the leading positions in Russia: according to various estimates, from 20 to 30 thousand. There were enough reasons for this. Galich was lying at a profitable crossroads. In addition to the already mentioned branch of the Amber Road, which went from the Vistula to the Dniester, another route was added, going from the east to Poland, the Czech Republic and Regensburg. The city was one of the main suppliers of salt in Eastern Europe, providing all of South Russia and neighboring countries. In addition, Galich was a major center for handicraft production, and its remoteness from the borders provided its population with fairly safe living.

There were in Galicia and its own characteristics associated with its history. Apparently, it was a relatively young city, and therefore did not have time to acquire so many tribal traditions that already existed in the form of remnants in the older settlements of this region. Because of this, the class stratification was stronger here, and the boyars already existed independently of the community, acting as a powerful oligarchy that controlled the main land holdings and trades, including super-profitable salt ones. The confrontation of the boyars with the community was not yet obvious, but they already completely felt like local kings in Galich. They most likely welcomed the creation of the princely table under Ivan Vasilkovich, since this actually denoted the special significance of Galich, however, the transfer of the capital of the entire princedom to the city promised big problems - the prince wanted centralized power and, most likely, began to struggle with an overly ambitious and rich local boyars with the help of Przemysl’s, who, however, was not devoid of his ambitions, and who was exactly the same latent oligarchy, which simply envied its former suburbs.

They added fuel to the fire and other events. It has already been said that Vladimir tried to expand the territory of his principality at the expense of Volyn, supporting Vsevolod Olgovich against Prince Izyaslav Mstislavich Volynsky. Allies needed the Galicians to maintain their independence, but in 1144, Vsevolod, in exchange for support, demanded that the principality be dependent on its power. Vladimir, of course, refused, relying on a strong local army and battle in the field. However, the battle itself did not happen - when the prince went away from Galich, the army of Vsevolod of Kiev arrived in a roundabout way and took the capital under siege. Such a move took Vladimir by surprise, and he was forced to admit Olgovich’s supremacy over himself, and also to pay a huge indemnity, which burdened the townspeople with a heavy burden. The wealthiest sections of society, i.e. the boyars who were supposed to lay out the most funds to pay Vsevolod.

That is why in the same year, as soon as the prince went on a hunt, the boyars rebelled and seized power in the city. Instead of Vladimir, his nephew, Ivan Rostislavich, who ruled in Zvenigorod, was invited to the board. Without much thought, he agreed, and for a short period of time became the ruler of the entire principality. However, Ivan ruled quite a bit - learning about the betrayal, Vladimir quickly gathered an army and besieged Galich. The nephew was forced to flee the city, and the prince, returning him to his control, organized mass repressions of the boyars who had betrayed him, having executed a number of them. Two years later, Vladimir refused to recognize the supreme power of Vsevolod of Kiev, and this time he was ready for all the surprises. The Grand Duke encountered a well-prepared defense, could not take Zvenigorod, and returned from the campaign with nothing. Soon after, he died.

The next round of confrontation turned out to be connected with the great strife for Kiev between Izyaslav Mstislavich, Prince of Volyn, and Yuri Dolgoruky, Prince of Rostov-Suzdal. Vladimirko acted as an ally of the latter, since the former posed a great threat to him, however, it was necessary to take into account the fact that both applicants for the grand princely title sought to take control of the rich Volyn, which would strengthen their position in Russia after the success of the struggle for Kiev. For the Principality of Galicia, the appearance of such a strong neighbor was extremely undesirable. I had to choose the lesser of evils, which means - to fight against the current Volyn prince. After 1146, Vladimir made several trips to the neighboring territory and occupied border cities, including Shumsk, Buzhsk, Tikhoml and several others.

Reckoning came in 1150, when Izyaslav Mstislavich was able to pay close attention to Galich. Having achieved an alliance with the Hungarians, he carried out a large-scale invasion of the territory of the principality that once belonged to Volyn. The bribing of the Hungarians by Vladimir was able to stop the Volyn attack, but only for a while. In 1152, everything was repeated in the same form, and the Galician prince had to ask for peace, and return everything won back to Izyaslav, kissing on that cross. Soon after this, he violated the agreement by refusing to return the captured, showing complete disregard for the fact that he took an oath and kissed the cross (for which some modern bloggers for some reason consider him an atheist). A new war was brewing, but in 1153 Vladimir Galitsky died, and a year later Izyaslav Mstislavich died. The power in the principality passed to Yaroslav Vladimirovich, who is better known in history as Yaroslav Osmomysl.

Ivan Berladnik


Speaking about the history of the Principality of Galicia, it is impossible not to briefly mention the fate of Ivan Rostislavich, who, after an unsuccessful attempt at a coup in Galich, was forced to flee abroad, namely to Berladye (Berlad), the interfluve of the Dniester and the Danube, where the Moldavian principality will arise in the future. In the middle of the XII century, this territory was practically not controlled by Russia, however, it was inhabited by Russian people - runaways, carers, various freemen. Information on the structure and development of Berladi is extremely scarce, it is only known that immigrants from Russia founded quite a lot of settlements there, including the cities of Barlad and Galati. The latter was probably originally called Galich, and was founded by immigrants from Subcarpathia. There he managed to recruit some squad, and in the future his ties with this region will remain strong enough, as a result of which Ivan will become better known to historians not as a middle name, but as Ivan Berladnik.

Already in 1045, he returned to Russia, and entered the service of Vsevolod of Kiev, hoping sooner or later to return to the Principality of Galicia and head it, albeit in a subordinate position. Soon Vsevolod died, and Ivan Berladnik had to look for new patrons in the hope of obtaining at least some inheritance. For many years he wandered around Russia, and for many years he did not succeed. Nevertheless, together with his squad, he was able to gain some popularity, turning into the first serving prince in Russia, a mercenary prince, having managed to fight in both the South and the North. After all his victories and failures, which will be described later, he will be disappointed in life and leave Russia, having arrived in Byzantium and settled there. The prince died in 1162 in Thessaloniki, and, most likely, he was poisoned. After himself, he left his son Rostislav Ivanovich, who will become one of the last representatives of the Rostislavich Galitsky dynasty, the side branch of the Rurikovich, and lay his head in the fight for Galich.

Yaroslav Osmomysl



Reconstruction of the appearance of Yaroslav Osmomysl

Yaroslav Vladimirovich received the nickname Osmomysl either for his outstanding mind, or for knowing many languages. He is considered the most prominent prince of the Rostislavichs, and the best ruler of South-Western Russia before the arrival of the Romanovichs. Thanks to his skillful rule, the Principality of Galicia reached the peak of its strength, and Galich - the highest level of its development and wealth. The Principality under him played the largest political role in its history in Russia, reaching the peak of its capabilities without taking into account neighboring Volyn. The growth of the economy and population accelerated significantly, the land became famous for its goods, crafts, Galich controlled a significant share of Russian trade. The prince himself was very rich by the standards of his time thanks to control of such a rich city and provided a good inheritance to his children. It was his eldest daughter, Efrosinya, who became famous thanks to one of the main roles in “The Word about Igor's Regiment”. Yes, "Crying Yaroslavna" - this is about her!

Yaroslav began by raking up the problems that he inherited from his father, namely, from the war with Izyaslav Mstislavich. Two troops, Galician and Kiev, converged at Terebovli. The battle was very bloody, the Galicians suffered heavy losses - and still achieved victory. But, as they say, this victory was tactical, and Izyaslav got the strategic one. Using cunning, he was able to capture part of the Galicians' troops, and shortly after the battle ordered them to be executed. The principality could no longer fight, having lost many of its soldiers, and therefore Yaroslav was forced to go to peace, recognizing the supremacy of Izyaslav and returning the Volyn cities captured by his father. But after that, the long-awaited peace came, and Izyaslav himself, if he had any plans for the Principality of Galicia, did not have time to put them into practice, he died already in 1154. After this, Galich’s dependence on Volyn immediately evaporated, and the principality again went into free swimming.

Following this, problems began because of Ivan Berladnik, who claimed Galich. In 1056, he was with Yuri Dolgoruky, when he agreed to extradite the former prince to Yaroslav Osmomysl. Having almost sent him to certain death, under the pressure of the clergy and entourage, Yuri changed his mind, and instead of Galich sent the outcast prince to Suzdal. On the way there, Berladnik was intercepted by the people of Izyaslav Davydovich Chernihiv, who the next year became Prince of Kiev. Of course, Ivan became a political tool in the hands of the ambitious Izyaslav, and he himself did not mind being used for his own purposes, urging his new patron to action. As a result of this, the prince of Kiev advanced on a campaign against the Galician principality, with the support of the Polovtsy, Torquay and Berendey. The first thing that came under attack was Yaroslav's ally, Mstislav Izyaslavich, who was besieged in Belgorod-Kiev.

It seemed that the prince of Kiev is on a horse .... But the Berendees betrayed Osmomysl very well, as a result of which the campaign failed, and then Izyaslav had to leave Kiev altogether. The new Kiev prince, Rostislav Mstislavich, was chosen together by his father Mstislav and Prince Galich. Later, Yaroslav several times intervened in the affairs of Kiev, supporting the relatives of his ally, Mstislav Izyaslavich. Now the main military operations were conducted beyond Kiev, away from Galich, and the principality could calmly develop and solve its problems. In addition, this liberated the Galician troops, which subsequently regularly participated in campaigns against the Polovtsy, which became traditional for Southern Russia. The chroniclers describe the army of Yaroslav Osmomysl as “iron regiments”, indicating its multiplicity and high combat qualities. Most likely, at that time it had already noticeably changed in structure due to losses incurred earlier - the role of the prince's squad decreased, while the importance of the boyar militias significantly increased. In addition, mercenaries — both from neighboring countries and “free hunters” from among the Russians, could appear in the service of Osmomysl. The role of city regiments remained unchanged - but they seem to be used less and less from now on.

In 1159, Ivan Berladnik again made himself felt. Gathering in his army of hawkers and Polovtsy, he set out on a campaign on the Galician land, besieging the important suburb of Ushitsa. Nevertheless, the siege failed due to the soon approaching princely army, which defeated the army recruited from the steppes and freemen. Deciding not to postpone for later, Yaroslav Osmomysl immediately began a series of campaigns to the south, in Berladye, as a result of which soon this whole territory recognized its dependence on Galich. Chronicles claim that the power of the Galician prince reached the mouth of the Danube, where he built his merchant ships, which sent from there to many countries. Nevertheless, control over this territory remained very weak, and later Berlad continued to be land inhabited by various kinds of freemen, who poorly recognized any supreme power.

Boyars against


Initially, relations with the boyars in Yaroslav developed quite good. During the battle of Terebovli, the Galician boyars, who had recently rebelled against his father, did not let the prince into the thick of the battle, fearing to lose their ruler. In the early years of the reign of Osmomysl, they continued to support him, but gradually the relationship began to deteriorate. Yaroslav began to behave independently, and pursue the same policy of centralizing power and limiting the power and influence of the oligarchs. The Galitsky boyars did not like this approach at all, and already in 1160-61 they sent letters to Ivan Berladnik that they were ready to hand over the city to him or at least not to interfere with taking Galich if he suddenly tried to fight for the princely table again. However, these letters remained unanswered.

In the early 1170s, relations between Yaroslav Osmomysl and his wife, Olga, intensified. The reason was that for some time the prince had been living openly with his mistress, Nastasya (Anastasia) Chagrovna, who came from the Polovtsian or Berendey clan Chagrov. From both women Yaroslav had sons - Vladimir from Olga, and Oleg from Nastasya. The first from an early age showed outstanding abilities in fooling around and drinking everything that burns, while Oleg was a much more reasonable and balanced person. Added to this is the lack of love between husband and wife, which was the norm for political marriages. In the end, they simply began to live separately, which also cannot be called an extraordinary event.

The boyars, perhaps, would have avoided this family drama if, together with Nastasya, her relatives had not appeared at the court, who began to occupy important posts in the government of Yaroslav Osmomysl, pulling a blanket over themselves while sharing the “feedings”. In addition, the boyars were looking for a way to somehow restrain the prince, who began to devote too much attention to issues of government. As a result of this, when in 1171 Olga and Vladimir left Galich, the boyars fanned a tragedy of a state scale and raised a rebellion. The Chagrovichs were killed, and Nastasia was burned at the stake right in front of the prince. They unambiguously made it clear to Yaroslav that they would not put up with “princely arbitrariness,” and forced him to reconcile with his wife, wanting to see weak Vladimir in the heirs of Osmomysl.

This episode was not the first in a long history of confrontation between princely power and the Galician political elite, but the first when the actions of the boyars reached a new, completely unbridled level. They wanted a strong prince, but that in matters concerning the boyars he should be soft and supple, he would easily follow the will of the boyars; the boyars themselves for the first time showed a high level of cohesion in such intrigues, declaring themselves to be a new omnipotent elite, dictating its will to the monarchs, as it was in Hungary, and will still be in Poland. Yaroslav could not fight rich boyars, depending on them, and was further forced to adjust his policy according to their requirements.

Family Drama and Politics


After the burning of Nastasya Chagrovna, Princess Olga and her son Vladimir returned to Galich ... only so that Vladimir would soon run away from his father again, this time to Lutsk, where he was protected by Prince Yaroslav Izyaslavich, who was considered the eldest of the Volyn princes. Osmomysl this time did not trifle, and went for his son, led by an army, which included mercenary Poles. The Lutsk prince was forced to stop his patronage, but the son did not return to his father, having gone on a large voyage in Russia. For some time he passed from hand to hand either as a trump card against Osmomysl, or as a valuable hostage, until at last he was exchanged for other captured princes and returned to his father in Galich.

God loves the trinity, and therefore Vladimir decided to run away for the third time, in 1182 he went to the Volyn prince, Roman Mstislavich, where he was sent on all four sides, because any adequate prince did not want to deal with him. Having received several more similar refusals from the closest princes, Vladimir came to Turov, where for some time he received the patronage of Prince Svyatopolk Yuryevich, and then went on wandering around Russia. Having managed to visit Vsevolod the Big Nest and stay with his sister in Putivl, he returned home in 1184. Apparently, the mother's tramp ran out of money, and kind relatives were tired of enduring the progressive alcoholism and the dissolute lifestyle of this stunned, as a result of which he simply had to return home with nothing.

In 1187, Yaroslav Osmomysl lived out his last days. Already bedridden, he forced the boyars and both his sons, Vladimir and Oleg, to swear on the cross that they would keep his will. According to him, Oleg was to become the prince in Galich, who all these years was with his father and showed good inclinations of the ruler. Przemysl got to Vladimir, and then rather for the sake of appeasing the boyars, who otherwise could have arranged another rebellion on the deathbed of the prince. All those present kissed the cross and tearfully swore that it would be so, the will of the prince would be respected, and Oleg Nastasich would become the next ruler of the Principality of Galicia .... But Yaroslav Osmomysl barely lost his breath, as it became clear that no one except Oleg was interested in such an outcome. There came a new period in the history of Galich - a period of constant change of rulers and a struggle for power between many applicants and opposing factions.

The extinction of Rostislavich



A modern monument to King Bele III of Hungary in the city of Szentgotthard. The first Magyar ruler who decided to annex the Principality of Galicia to his country. What is curious, this husband was a physique of a heroic build and more than 2 meters tall - this was in the Middle Ages, when the average growth of peasants was less than today. That is, by the standards of time, it was a real giant, and in our time it would also be considered such

Almost immediately after the death of Yaroslav, the boyars rebelled in Galich, and called on the reign of Vladimir Yaroslavich. Oleg was forced to flee the city, and began to seek help from other Rurikovich. He arrived in Ovruch, to Prince Rurik Rostislavich, but did not receive the proper support, and went on. Arriving in Poland, he immediately found sympathy, received an army under his command, and easily defeated the army of Vladimir, who at the crucial moment was thrown by the Galician boyars. Oleg sat down to rule in Galich ... and was soon poisoned. Of course, everyone nodded at omnipotent boyars, and meanwhile Vladimir Yaroslavich, who again became prince in Galich, quickly returned from Hungary. Being a complete insignificance as a ruler, he seemed to become a puppet of the boyars.

However, Vladimir did not rule for long. Having a clear conflict with his father, clearly despising Nastasia Chagrovna and his half-brother Oleg, he decided that he could not follow in his father's footsteps. Therefore, becoming quickly drowned in alcohol and profligacy, he did not take a berendaika as a concubine, but simply stole a certain ass from his still living spouse, and began to live with her as if with a princess. The boyars and the community could endure such excesses of the puppets, but the trouble was that Vladimir suddenly decided to take power on himself, and began to try to rule on his own. Of course, he was immediately accused of profligacy, and asked for a way out. Vladimir’s reign took months, after which he went into exile, taking the love of his life, not married to him, with his children ...

A large political circus began, which later became for several decades traditional for the Principality of Galicia. The exiled Vladimir went to the Hungarian king, asking for his help. Help was received by them, as a result of which the Magyar army invaded the principality. In parallel with this, the Galician boyars, anticipating something was amiss, invited Prince Roman Mstislavich, who ruled in Volhynia, to be the largest player in South-Western Russia at that time, to reign. He left everything and went to Galich to rule, leaving his brother, Vsevolod Mstislavich, in Vladimir. However, having arrived in his new principality, Roman was depressed - local boyars immediately began to put sticks in his wheels, fearing that an active prince would immediately cut their wings, and the Hungarian army was getting closer and closer every day. The prince had to leave the city and look for allies to fight the Magyars ...

Vladimir, bringing Vengrov to Galich, thought that they would put him there to rule him, but he was deeply mistaken. King Bela III, having thought carefully and having estimated the wealth of the city, put his son Andras there to rule, providing his “legitimacy” with the numerous Hungarian garrison. Prince Roman’s attempts, together with his father-in-law, Rurik Rostislavich, to recapture the city, failed, and Rurik himself did not really try to help his son-in-law. As a result, Roman had to abandon Galich and return to Volyn. The Hungarian authorities began to tighten the screws more than ever, having offended not only willful boyars, but also the Galician community, which had not been in a hurry to participate in the strife. As a result, Rostislav Ivanovich, the son of Ivan Berladnik, who took part in the anti-Hungarian uprising along with his squad recruited from the same freemen with Berladi, was called up by the townspeople. The warriors dissuaded Rostislav from this campaign, but he decided that he would either win or die. He could not win, the squad fell in full force, and the outcast prince was captured. According to one information, he died from wounds received in battle, and according to another, the Hungarians poisoned him by applying poison to his wounds.

It seemed that Magyar power was about to be established over Galich, but it wasn’t there. Vladimir, betrayed by his patrons, decided to continue what was started, changing the “daddy” to a more promising one. The strongest “daddy” that he could find at that time was the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa, who still supported the last of the Rostislavichs, and forced the de jure vassals to him to return the prince to his possession. The Hungarians were not ready for this, and the local boyars, having tasted the foreign occupation, decided that they simply had no better option than an alcoholic and a womanizer. As a result of this, already in 1189, Vladimir again began to rule in Galich, the Hungarians were expelled, and the emperor received a modest monetary compensation of 2000 hryvnias, which had to be scraped off by all the Galician people.

Having sworn allegiance to Vsevolod the Big Nest, who at that time was the strongest and most influential prince in Russia, Vladimir continued to rule Galich, until he drank himself and did not split himself to death in 1199. After his death, the Rostislavich Galitsky dynasty was suppressed, which began so well and continued, and so sadly ended its relatively short history of government. Under them, the Principality of Galicia was finally formed as a fairly independent state entity, and inheritance within its borders went separately from the general ladder, which was a useful precedent for the future. The economy was seriously developed, and the southern territories expanded significantly due to conquests and colonization. At the same time, by the end of the existence of the Rostislavichs, domestic political mess and intrigues involving a large number of actors reached the point of no return and became chronic. The boyars seized upon the power and was ready for it for any betrayal and cruelty. A large and complex action with many participants was about to begin.

To be continued ...
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  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 June 2020 06: 21 New
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    Thanks for continuing the cycle!
    Regards, Vlad!
  2. Korsar4 1 June 2020 06: 22 New
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    That's interesting.
    How large was the construction of merchant ships?

    As for the authorities, it is curious how often kissing the cross could stop what happened.
    1. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 13: 32 New
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      Quote: Korsar4
      How large was the construction of merchant ships?

      With the details, alas, the complexity, but I did not think that the scale was large. On the Dniester, merchant ships and boats, if anything, were lowered to Yaroslav Osmomysl, then it’s essentially a river-sea, but who could easily give up their sea trade to some prince from Russia? And then there are not many references to the construction of merchant ships by the Galician principality. So, most likely, this was not a very large and short-term achievement.
  3. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 08: 11 New
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    Thank Artyom
    according to various estimates, from 20 to 30 thousand.
    I never thought about it, but it suddenly became interesting: by what criteria is the size of the urban population estimated? And what is it: living directly outside the walls, or are they, but with all the settlements, settlements and suburbs?
    1. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 12: 06 New
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      Quote: 3x3zsave
      by what criteria is the urban population estimated?

      The archaeological route establishes the boundaries of urban development - the Kremlin plus the settlement, explores the density of this development (the number of estates per unit area), calculates the number of estates and more ... But then the difficulties begin. If you can calculate how many children were on average in princely families, it is still very poorly possible, then how many of them were on average in peasant and (or) urban families absolutely impossible. As many as princes, more, less? What factor to take to calculate the total population?
      The senior senior offered his own coefficient, somehow justified it, it turned out 50 in Kiev - the largest city in Russia, 000 each in Novgorod and Vladimir-on-Klyazma (this is on the eve of the invasion), the rest are even smaller. There are other figures based on the same methodology, but obtained using other coefficients - Kiev is about 30, other cities are proportionate. It is difficult to say who to believe, but the scatter in half is very decent.
      By the way, from the annals it is known that during the famine of 1230-31. in Novgorod alone about 10 people were buried in mass graves, and this, of course, is not the final number of dead. However, despite such losses, Novgorod continues to pursue the same policy with the same degree of rigidity and energy, already in 000, for example, the Novgorod squad was fully fully involved in the battle at Omovzh. That is, the loss of 1234 people for Novgorod was not particularly noticeable. How many people were there before the famine? Probably not 10, calculated by the Tolochko coefficient.
      But the fact that Galich to the middle of the XII century. was one of the largest cities in Russia, along with Kiev, Novgorod, Vladimir-on-Klyazma, Chernigov, Smolensk, Vladimir-Volynsky, Polotsk and Ryazan - absolutely for sure. Under Vladimir Volodarevich, this city entered the “major league”, under Osmomysl it was firmly established in it, surpassing Polotsk and Ryazan in any case.
    2. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 13: 35 New
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      Quote: 3x3zsave
      I never thought about it, but it suddenly became interesting: by what criteria is the size of the urban population estimated?

      As a rule, they are measured by the approximate population density of the city + archaeologically proven area. But better, of course, are specific references in chronicles or other sources.
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      And what is it: living directly behind the walls, or are they, but with all the settlements, settlements and suburbs?

      It depends on where and when. If all the suburbs and settlements near the city are far away, then they are not considered. In Galich, the suburbs were directly connected with the main city, and, apparently, they were very large-scale, because they are included in the general line of the city.
  4. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 08: 20 New
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    however, the transfer of the capital of the entire principality to the city promised big problems for the princes - the prince wanted centralized power and, most likely, began to struggle with an overly ambitious and rich local boyars
    Reminds a situation with Astana. Probably, similar precedents are found more than once in history.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 08: 55 New
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        Hello Edward! I understand all this, simply, the author’s phrase led to an analogy, perhaps not quite correct.
    2. Edward Vashchenko 1 June 2020 08: 51 New
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      Anton, welcome.
      however, the transfer of the capital


      Dear author, mentioned in the list of work I.Ya. Froyanov and A.V. Mayorov (he is a student of Froyanov),
      according to their well-grounded views, this is not a formal “transfer” in the modern sense.
      There was a struggle of zemstvos or city-states, Volyn was originally a tribal center, and during the collapse of the tribal system and the transition to a territorial community, new centers appeared that fought for hegemony.
      Really Galich
      appears in the annals as a devil from a snuffbox
      .
      So it was in the Vladimir-Suzdal land: Suzdal, Vladimir, Yaroslavl.
      So, presumably, it happened in the Novgorod land: perhaps from Ladoga to Novgorod.
      And even, there were attempts, in the Kiev land, we recall Yaroslav and Mstislav.
      1. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 08: 58 New
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        Some kind of "techno-tongue" happened, I answered above.
        1. Edward Vashchenko 1 June 2020 09: 49 New
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          Some kind of "techno-tongue" happened, I answered above.

          no problems!
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 June 2020 09: 47 New
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        Closer by analogy, probably Suzdal! Vladimir and Yaroslavl towered as capitals of the specific princes leaning on the lower classes and merchants. But Suzdal arises as the boyar capital in contrast to the tribal center of Rostov! Vladimir and Yaroslavl - this is the next stage in strengthening princely power! The peak of "absolutism" conditional of course, Bogolyubovo Prince Andrei! But the "wasp" finished him !!!
        I would put Pereslavl-Zalesky specific in one row with Galich. But here, debatable!
        Regards, Vlad!
        P.S. I wonder why they deleted the comment of Edward? Not really succumbed to the landings !!! Oh, we spoiled the assistant professor !!!
        Joke!
        1. Edward Vashchenko 1 June 2020 09: 59 New
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          P.S. I wonder why they deleted the comment of Edward? Not really succumbed to the landings !!! Oh, we spoiled the assistant professor !!!

          good
          It's too late to spoil)))
          Itself deleted: I hurry, I make mistakes.
          Vladislav hi
  5. Cartalon 1 June 2020 09: 04 New
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    Perhaps Klim Zhukov and his comrades were right the army was not very numerous, otherwise the country would have been completely ruined, and then a constant strife is normal for everyone.
    1. Edward Vashchenko 1 June 2020 09: 51 New
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      Michael,
      it seems to me that this opinion is absolutely correct, K. Zhukov is very well acquainted, as a graduate of St. Petersburg State University, with the theory of I. Ya. Froianova, it is strange if he wrote differently. good
      1. Cartalon 1 June 2020 09: 57 New
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        Well, the method of calculating the size of the sites seems less dubious to me, even if all the military men lived in cities, they fed from the villages.
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 June 2020 09: 55 New
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      Glad to read you Michael!
      The army, the era of Svyatoslav, fed herself and watered herself. Each rodovich was Voinov and went after the prince to get glory and get zipuns. Although in those days, the squad was distinguished by the quality of training and weapons. It is not for nothing that the chronicler in the PVL indicates different shares from production. It is interesting to see that there is a clear division into ship and horse parties.
      By the Tatar-Mongol invasion, a professional component was formed, which was mainly horse and armored! But alas, this was not enough for the Batu hordes!
      1. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 10: 15 New
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        Bliiiin, Vlad! Well, please, finally destroy T9 on the phone !!!
      2. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 12: 27 New
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        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        The army, the era of Svyatoslav, fed herself and watered herself. Each rodovich was Voinov and went after the prince to get glory and get zipuns.

        I see it a little differently.
        Svyatoslav’s team, of course, consisted of professional warriors - completely and completely, and the vast majority of them were Scandinavian mercenaries, because the economy of that time was simply not able to feed any large military formation on an ongoing basis. The prince threw a cry, numerous relatives with his squads came to him, went on a campaign, returned with prey, and dispersed until the next time.
        Yaroslav’s campaign on the Volga lasted several years, and the others were also very long - I absolutely can not imagine that the militia participated in them. In addition, someone should work, after all ... smile
        Under Vladimir, the Scandinavian component of the Russian squad began to decrease sharply, under Yaroslav, by the end of his reign, in fact, it came to naught, all of these Haralds Hardrada, Olafy and other Ammundas ended, primarily there, in the places of their reproduction. smile
        1. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 13: 48 New
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          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Yaroslav’s campaign on the Volga lasted several years, and the others were also very long - I absolutely can not imagine that the militia participated in them. In addition, someone should work, after all ...

          So this, under Svyatoslav, was still not so developed - and agricultural, and crafts, and cities (and crafts in cities). Those who later settled down and would do business under Svyatoslav could hang around with free falcons — and so they went on campaigns with him, on foot or horseback, armed, and ready to try military success and gain military glory. Well, borrow someone else’s good, what’s already here laughing So Svyatoslav could probably use the militias. But, the stump is clear, not all, and not throughout the reign - someone had to guard the house. Maybe even some kind of rotation of the militias between the clans was - to pick up some on a campaign today, the next year - others ...
          1. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 15: 00 New
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            Quote: arturpraetor
            Those who later settled and would do business under Svyatoslav could hang around free falcons

            The Slavs are a purely sedentary people whose main occupation is agriculture. For the most part, they could break loose only under serious external pressure. It is unlikely to break away from arable land, houses to go camping for zipuns for a long time. It was not beneficial for the prince either - who would pay the tribute and why, if a substantial part of the population would spend time hiking. Moreover, leading militias into a campaign is also unprofitable from the point of view that it makes no sense to them in a long, many-thousand-kilometer campaign, that there is less in battle, and he eats as much as a professional warrior.
            Quote: Engineer
            Professional warriors and even of foreign origin are very few.

            Do not forget that in the courtyard of the Viking era, there are many of them and they crave prey and glory. And when the king of Gardariki Svendislave Ingvarson, if not a direct blood relative, then, in any case, a character close to them in spirit, in terms of concepts, announces the recruitment of volunteers for a large-scale enterprise in the east, who want to participate, of course, will be many.
            The Slavs in his squad, of course, were also - most likely, from the composition of the local Slavic nobility and their squads, but judging by the names listed in the agreements of the predecessors of Svyatoslav and Byzantium ("we are from the clan of the Russian ..."), there were few of them.
            Quote: Engineer
            The Greeks would have carried them in the first round.

            Well, the previous campaigns, starting from the first half of the XNUMXth century, when the Rus besieged Constantinople, speak of a different story.
            Quote: Engineer
            According to sources and results, Svyatoslav had a direct analogue of the "large pagan army"

            The description of the battle of Dorostol testifies, rather, to the fact that the Greeks fought precisely with the Vikings - a dense foot building, a wall of shields that the Greeks tried to break through.
            1. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 15: 06 New
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              Quote: Trilobite Master
              The Slavs are a purely sedentary people whose main occupation is agriculture. For the most part, they could break loose only under serious external pressure.

              Or during overpopulation, when the current methods of management and the area of ​​arable land could no longer provide everyone with work, or even food. In this case, the "surplus" of the population naturally turns into a military asset. It is possible that such a picture could be observed just at the time of Svyatoslav - the development of the economy did not keep pace with the demographic growth. Moreover, the situation, as I recall, is quite usual for a tribal system, many sedentary tribes broke down in migration in search of a new land and happiness, arranging invasions of the Roman and then Byzantine empires. Svyatoslav’s actions painfully resemble a similar scenario here, and in this case it becomes clear where he could have taken quite a large army in the form that the Byzantines describe it.
              1. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 15: 49 New
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                Honestly, I do not see any prerequisites for internal demographic pressure in that era. There was a lot of land, including undeveloped land, clear, plow - there was enough space for everyone, just work. Russia, after all, is not Scandinavia with its relatively small spaces suitable for agriculture and not surrounded by the sea. In Scandinavia - yes - this demographic pressure was felt, which, in fact, resulted in expansion.
                Quote: arturpraetor
                many sedentary tribes were so frustrated in migration in search of a new land and happiness,

                To do this, overpopulation or pressure from the outside, from the neighbors. In Russia, I do not see such prerequisites, it seems to me that the picture was strictly opposite - a lot of land, few people.
                1. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 15: 53 New
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                  In any case, this is just an assumption. But here is the fact that the troops of Svyatoslav were clearly not only from among the squads - for me personally a fact. It was in Russia that one could fight something with only one retinue, or cut into the little things with the steppes. But to fight the Byzantines - a considerable army is needed here, you can’t do just one squad. In "Primordial Rus" everything is described beautifully, as 1,5 Rusich scare the entire Byzantine army in the Balkans, but in reality ...
                  1. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 17: 25 New
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                    In "Primordial Rus" everything is described beautifully, as 1,5 Rusich scare the entire Byzantine army in the Balkans
                    I agree, it's funny! The army, which has been battling with the Arabs for 300 years, before that, another 100 years, with the Iranians, was fought by XNUMX savages from the northern forests ???
                    1. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 17: 35 New
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                      Well, in fairness, the main troops at that time were not in the Balkans, and especially the Byzantine army of that era ... Let's just say - if everything was fine, the Arabs would not be able to arrange what they did just shortly after. But such a slight bend of the Byzantines with such small forces is really bust. But this is a different era, Svyatoslav had to fight with another Byzantium, and even against a completely successful commander. In short, if Svyatoslav had only one squad and hired Scandinavians, he would still be unable to compete with the Byzantines, simply because of the small number of his own army.

                      Although we now generally compare the art book with real laughing And if the real with the real - I remember, the same ants on the northern outskirts of Byzantium completely attacked themselves. But they could not even have Svyatoslav’s squad! And either the Byzantines had an inferiority complex before the Ants, there were a lot of Ants. And if there is a lot, then without engaging a tribal militia it could not do. Not, well, why, for a year or so leave land for steam, or for young old people and women, and strong adult men - for a new cattle and jewelry for women to their neighbors, is there a problem? wassat It was later, when the average standard of living in Russia had risen, there was nothing for the simple people to raid - there was more work than hands, it was possible to enrich oneself with at least a craft, at least a craft, at least ... And with a tribal system, attacking neighbors for swag - then that!
                      1. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 17: 48 New
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                        Ants in the composition of which hosted the race?
                      2. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 17: 53 New
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                        Duc own. Sort of. Because at that time, the information is quite vague, and even my sclerosis is progressing. laughing From what I remembered by digging that topic - they kind of went to raids on the Byzantines. But I could be wrong, here I admit that the sources are not firmly supported request
                      3. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 17: 56 New
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                        Dear comrade Vashchenko writes that the Ants were the "cannon fodder" of the Avars. Or didn’t I understand something?
                      4. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 17: 59 New
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                        Not excluded. I suspect, dear colleague, he understands this topic better hi But, again, EMNIP, Avars - this is the end of the history of the Ants.
                      5. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 18: 05 New
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                        Perhaps I’ll be mistaken, but Edward defended his candidacy on this subject laughing
                      6. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 18: 07 New
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                        Then, all the more, he understands the topic better than me laughing Well, we will wait for his sentence on this topic. hi
                  2. Engineer 1 June 2020 18: 30 New
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                    Dear comrade Vashchenko writes that the Ants were the "cannon fodder" of the Avars. Or didn’t I understand something?

                    The raid of the Slavs, which formed the basis of the novel "Primordial Russia," occurred in 549-550. Procopius named slavs, not antes
                    Dominion of the Avars - later, at the end of the 6th century
          2. Engineer 1 June 2020 18: 40 New
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            The funniest thing that happened. Procopius calls the horsemen of Azbad "excellent" and mentions that they outnumbered the Sklava by number.
            Unfortunately, more of these feats of Slavic special forces almost never happened)
        2. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 19: 35 New
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          Quote: arturpraetor
          the army of Svyatoslav was clearly not only from among the squad

          Of course not. I believe that his army consisted of many squads, mainly Scandinavian squads of his relatives and just adventurers. Of course, his own squad was the largest and included including the Slavic component. At that time, the Slavs themselves could not set up substantial combat-ready military contingents - the natural merger of princely Rus and Slavic nobility was still far from complete.
          1. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 20: 00 New
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            Quote: Trilobite Master
            I believe that his army consisted of many squads, mainly Scandinavian squads of his relatives and just adventurers. Of course, his own squad was the largest and included including the Slavic component.

            I'm afraid, even if so, the number of troops would still be relatively small. Friends are good, but not when it is necessary to confront a country that is perfectly able to mobilize its resources and population, and quietly turns around considerable armies. One squad - this is several hundred people, the prince at that time - maybe up to a thousand. Well, how many relatives and adventurers do you need to recruit?

            All in all, this is a very, very controversial and shaky version.
            1. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 20: 14 New
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              Quote: arturpraetor
              controversial and shaky version

              From my point of view, far less precarious than driving a peasant militia through forests and steppes for several years, tearing it out of the production cycle. No, of course, by the end of the three-year campaign, they will already be able to something, but somehow it seems to me too expensive training. It’s much easier to throw a cry “to everyone”. There were plenty of unsettled Vikings.
            2. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 20: 21 New
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              Quote: Trilobite Master
              It’s much easier to throw a cry “to everyone”. There were plenty of unsettled Vikings.

              But not at least 10 thousandth army. You yourself said that the Vladimir-Suzdal principality hardly gathered such an army before the arrival of Batu, in the middle of the XIII century. And Svyatoslav already had such an army, if not more! Exclusively from squads, without boyar militia, without city regiments! At a time when not even all of Russia had been united! Here, as for me, there are too serious contradictions. If Svyatoslav used only squads, then he would not be able to recruit a large army, no squads and adventurers would be enough. And without a great army he could not have fought with the Byzantines - but he fought.

              Militias who have expressed a desire to go on a campaign can be prepared in advance. Moreover, without taking them in the period of preparation from economic activity on an ongoing basis.
            3. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 20: 49 New
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              Quote: arturpraetor
              And Svyatoslav already had such an army, if not more!

              I think less.
              Quote: arturpraetor
              Exclusively from squads, without boyar militia, without city regiments!

              Namely, since neither one nor the other, in the form in which it was a hundred years later, existed in nature. Boyars are still simple warriors, cities are small and weak to support their own forces. From the local cadres, only a militia can be formed - peasants, artisans (there were too few of them, but let them), etc. But you won’t lead them for 1000 km - they won’t go, but they will go, so they’ll be pierced along the road before the battle.
              Therefore, I’m talking about attracting Varangian substrate. There were, of course, local people, I’m not saying that everything is so simple, but not militias, but professionals from local elites. Just not the militias.
            4. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 21: 00 New
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              Quote: Trilobite Master
              I think less.

              Most likely, the opposite is more. Without the numerical superiority of Svyatoslav, the Byzantines would most likely have dared him. Or at least equal power.
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              Therefore, I’m talking about attracting Varangian substrate. There were, of course, local people, I’m not saying that everything is so simple, but not militias, but professionals from local elites. Just not the militias.

              So this, and I’m kinda not saying that they took all the militia straight and went into battle with it smile For long trips this is really not suitable. But some mobilization of local forces and means would have to be carried out. For example, to take every 10th of the family militia for a campaign, and systematically train them for the future. Or the hottest heads who did not want to delve into the ground were raked. So it’s even better than alternating the family militia. Or in some other way. But at the expense of some squads .... In general, I have already voiced my idea. With only his squads, relatives and Vikings, he would not have been able to wave with the Byzantines. Unreal.
            5. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 21: 05 New
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              Quote: arturpraetor
              to take every 10th of the militia for the campaign, and systematically train them for the future.

              This is not a militia, this is the "personnel reserve" of the squad. smile If so, then in general, I agree. smile
            6. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 21: 12 New
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              Quote: Trilobite Master
              This is not a militia, this is the "personnel reserve" of the squad.

              For Russia - the same militia. Daniil Romanovich guarantees that he had the bulk of the infantry (everything that was not city regiments) formed - in peacetime, economy and combat training were alternated, in the military they were given weapons and armor at the expense of the prince, and they fought in the general order. And, probably, Daniel also took part of such a militia on foreign campaigns (obviously not all the infantry — it’s just unnecessary). After that, it’s somehow easy for me to imagine that Svyatoslav could have not only a squad, but also such an “elective” militia in his long campaigns smile
            7. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 21: 17 New
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              Between Daniel and Svyatoslav three hundred years. During this time, a lot of things have changed: the population has grown, labor productivity and much more. I think the parallels are very doubtful.
            8. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 21: 21 New
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              Quote: Trilobite Master
              During this time, a lot of things have changed: the population has grown, labor productivity and much more.

              But in this regard, little has changed. The rural militia not far from the tribal tribe, and therefore went into oblivion in the New Time. Yes, and even figs with him, with raids on the neighbors - you also need to keep fit in case your neighbors visit you, but here the militia just plays the main role. Therefore, various kinds of manipulations, as for me, are quite possible, and parallels - with reservations - also.
  • 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 17: 15 New
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    Compared to Scandinavia at that time, there was little arable land.
    1. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 19: 38 New
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      Quote: 3x3zsave
      there was little arable land.

      It is not enough cleared and suitable for immediate sowing. But there was more than enough land for clearing and for a long time remained - just work.
      1. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 19: 49 New
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        Michael, well, you understand what it means to "clear the plot for sowing"?
        1. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 20: 06 New
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          What kind of work is this? Understand. But it was in this work that the life of our ancestors at that time consisted. To clear, plant, collect and clear again is their daily life.
        2. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 20: 26 New
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          That's it, and where is the place for the "military feat". Maximum, protect the wife from the alien rapist with an ax.
      2. Korsar4 1 June 2020 21: 08 New
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        It is still important to choose a place successfully. Not every part of the forest fit.
      3. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 21: 20 New
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        Sergei! hi
        And write an article about paleobotany!
        And then, here comrades and strive to sow the South Russian forests, high-grade wheat!
      4. Korsar4 1 June 2020 22: 02 New
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        Still, I only indirectly touch on this issue. There are many professionals and professional jobs.

        But I will postpone this thought to some far shelf.
  • arturpraetor 1 June 2020 20: 02 New
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    Quote: Trilobite Master
    But there was more than enough land for clearing and for a long time remained - just work.

    Quickly, in any case, this was not done. Land for plowing could be cleared for years, but the population could already be here and now a lot. Development follows the path of least resistance - and here the war is just that, alas and ah. In many countries, this sometimes even led to the fact that there was more free land than peasants, due to the fact that everyone went to war. In exactly the same settled peoples tied to agriculture.
    1. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 20: 09 New
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      Quote: arturpraetor
      In many countries, this sometimes even led to the fact that there was more free land than peasants, due to the fact that everyone went to war

      This could only happen if the peasants were driven forcibly or the land was looted. On a mass scale, peasants change their occupation only if there are any significant reasons that prevent them from doing their job.
    2. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 20: 13 New
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      Alas, dear colleague, I can not agree. If the peasant is free, and he has a choice - to delve into the earth at some not the best of times, and receive dubious growth, or to go to visit the richer neighbors and make them share their wealth - the peasants can easily get off the ground. Voluntarily, not from under the stick. Here, I'm afraid there will be no agreement between us.
    3. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 20: 56 New
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      You know, Artem, I somehow cannot imagine a frivolous peasant who is abandoning arable land, a house and a family to go camping, for example, from Novgorod or even Kiev, to the lower Volga or Bulgaria. Only if it is necessary to repel the raid, but it is somewhere nearby, then to return home, or if he really has nothing to do at home - there is no work, no food, no prospects.
      In Europe, such a problem could arise - the son has grown, but there is no land for him - let him go on a hike. In Russia, such a situation is unthinkable: the son grew up - they cleared the plot across the river and let it work. The tale of Kolobok was not in vain composed precisely with a sad end. smile
    4. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 21: 04 New
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      Quote: Trilobite Master
      You know, Artem, I somehow cannot imagine a frivolous peasant who is abandoning arable land, a house and a family to go camping, for example, from Novgorod or even Kiev, to the lower Volga or Bulgaria.

      Sorry, colleague, but the question does not rest on your imagination alone. If you can’t imagine it, it doesn’t mean that it wasn’t. Because people are completely different. Someone does not annoy his whole life messing with the earth. Someone is ready to despise tribal ties, if only to break out of this vicious circle. People - they are completely different. The picture that all the peasants are without exception sleeping and seeing only one thing - to delve into the ground - is oversimplified and utopian. It just doesn't happen smile
    5. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 21: 10 New
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      One in ten, of course, wants to become someone else. From this one the merchant will turn out, whether a warrior, maybe a book monk or a blacksmith, a carpenter from a gang, a robber in the forest. But nine others do not dream of anything. He lives well. smile
    6. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 21: 15 New
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      So here, actually, already something, not everyone dreamed about only the earth smile So, a certain number of peasants at any moment can get off the ground and go to the neighbors for swag. To purposefully collect such for a great trip - it’s quite possible for yourself.
  • Engineer 1 June 2020 16: 36 New
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    The Slavs are a purely sedentary people whose main occupation is agriculture. For the most part, they could break loose only under serious external pressure.

    We have facts of the migration of Slavs in the 7th century to Greece. Whole tribes. Moreover, for the same Sedov it is not a fact that this happened only under the removal of the Avar.
    A purely sedentary people can travel long distances.
    It was not beneficial for the prince either - who would pay the tribute and why, if a substantial part of the population would spend time hiking.

    We have a couple of clear evidence of the annals that Svyatoslav was little interested in things in the same Kiev. And he needs warriors.
    Do not forget that in the courtyard of the Viking era, there are many of them and they crave prey and glory. And when the king of Gardariki Svendislave Ingvarson, if not a direct blood relative, then, in any case, a character close to them in spirit, in terms of concepts, announces the recruitment of volunteers for a large-scale enterprise in the east, who want to participate, of course, will be many.

    Michael, a contemporary of Svyatoslav - Garald Sinezuby. The personality is epic and famous in sagas and western chronicles. Sit in a boat and in one or two weeks you are in his squad
    Svyatoslav for the Scandinavians noun. I will not recall a single runic inscription where, at least hypothetically, you can see a hint of it. He is nobody and there is no way to call him. And it is thousands of kilometers away.
    Well, the previous campaigns, starting from the first half of the XNUMXth century, when the Rus besieged Constantinople, speak of a different story.

    We have clear evidence that Tzimiskesos carefully prepared and gathered an army of many thousands, and only thousands of soldiers could withstand it. Places for thousands of Scandinavian pros at the same time in Russia, I do not see. Although I am a Norman.
    The description of the battle of Dorostol testifies, rather, to the fact that the Greeks fought precisely with the Vikings - a dense foot building, a wall of shields that the Greeks tried to break through.

    And which of the Western nations fought differently? Franks at Poitiers, Anglo-Saxons in Britain. Everything looks like this description
    1. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 19: 57 New
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      Quote: Engineer
      We have facts of the migration of Slavs in the 7th century to Greece. Whole tribes.

      Migrations and the readiness of a number of villagers to join the prince's squad are different things, due to completely different processes. The reluctance to deal with the reasons for the migration of the Slavs in those early years, but certainly we will not find any of them in relation to the Slavic society of the times of Svyatoslav. smile
      Quote: Engineer
      We have a couple of clear evidence of the annals that Svyatoslav was little interested in things in the same Kiev. And he needs warriors.

      Therefore, allies (not mercenaries) from the Vikings.
      Quote: Engineer
      Svyatoslav for the Scandinavians noun. I AM

      Very controversial thesis. Both his son and grandson used the "Varangians" very actively, and the service that Vladimir, that Yaroslav was considered by the Vikings is quite honorable. I do not understand why Svyatoslav should fall out of this series.
      Quote: Engineer
      Places for thousands of Scandinavian pros at the same time in Russia, I do not see.

      They gathered in Europe, I think they could have gathered in Russia. A few thousand, not tens, of course - quite.
      Quote: Engineer
      Franks at Poitiers

      Already heavy cavalry.
      Quote: Engineer
      Anglo-Saxons in Britain

      Before the Norman conquest, Britain certainly belonged to the Scandinavian world.
      1. Engineer 1 June 2020 20: 25 New
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        And I thought that I was a Norman)))
        Then to the very essence
        PVL
        In the year 6415 (907). Oleg went to the Greeks, leaving Igor in Kiev; he took with him many Varangians, and Slavs, and miracles, and Krivichi, and Meru, and Drevlyans, and Radimichi, and Polyans, and northerners, and Vyatichi, and Croats, and Duleb, and Tiver, and

        In the year 6452 (944). Igor, however, gathered many warriors: Varangians, Rus, and glades, and Slovens, and Kriviches, and Tiverts, - and hired the Pechenegs, and took hostages from them, - and went to the Greeks in the boats and on horses, trying to avenge himself.

        As we see, before Svyatoslav the Slavic element was widely attracted. Why would Svyatoslav limit it to "almost exclusively Scandinavians"?
        More general question. The concept of a people-army existing at a certain stage among European peoples seems to be refuted by no one. There is an armed people and there is an environment of leaders with weapons and better experience. Over time, the environment turns into squads and grows quantitatively and qualitatively, and the fighting qualities of the people and their role in the campaign decline. At what stage do you think the Slavs were under Svyatoslav. How is the “window” explained in which there are neither Slavic squads nor the militia, nor a combination of them, but only the Scandinavians?
        1. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 20: 41 New
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          Am I like a lightning rod today? Every ten minutes, messages are poured, I do not have time to answer, my fingers are tired. smile
          Denis, I did not claim that there were no Slavs in the army of Svyatoslav at all. I talked about the fact that the predominant element in it was most likely Varangian. The above quotations do not refute my words in any way, since we cannot judge the quantitative ratio of all the tribes listed in them.
          Quote: Engineer
          The concept of a people-army existing at a certain stage among European peoples seems to be refuted by no one.

          Yes, but this army is only suitable for a defensive war, not for many years of campaigns. They went out, fought, drove the adversary back to their more important affairs. But not for several years and for 1000 km from home with a chance to return no more than 10%.
          1. Engineer 1 June 2020 20: 45 New
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            Am I like a lightning rod today?


            He said that the predominant element in it was most likely Varangian.

            It was so much cooler
            Svyatoslav’s team, of course, consisted of professional warriors - completely and completely, and the vast majority of them were Scandinavian mercenaries,
            1. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 21: 01 New
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              Professionals - yes, I already refused mercenaries smile , the "overwhelming part" I continue to uphold. That is: the majority of the troops were attracted Varangians, some small part - the squads of local conditional "boyars" (Krivichi, Chud and others from the quote) and the prince's own squad - Russia.
            2. Engineer 1 June 2020 21: 03 New
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              Your estimate of the size of the army of Svyatoslav. Even at the level of sensations. Justification is not necessary
            3. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 21: 12 New
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              Up to ten thousand. In the Volga campaign less.
            4. Engineer 1 June 2020 21: 18 New
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              Matches mine. Therefore, I do not believe in 6-7 thousand Scandinavians under his leadership
              You know what else came to mind.
              The Scandinavians sacralize good luck. Luck is fundamentally important.

              When Gunnar returned, he told Sigmund:
              Unlucky you are a man, and give yourself up to evil deeds

              Good luck first, only then the good-bad character.

              Who is this man, asks Skafti, that he came in fifth, and he is tall, pale in face, unhappy in appearance, harsh and sinister?

              Igor Old is just a classic loser. His failure to represent the Vikings should reflect on everything he did on the children too. Another argument against the fact that there were many Scandinavians with Svyatoslav.
            5. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 21: 23 New
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              "Old" he is also very, very doubtful. These are already the notions of posterity; nobody called him like that. Well, if he were so bad, the princes would not be called by his name, as happened, for example, with Sudislav Vladimirovich, the brother of the Wise.
              And about 6-7 thousand Scandinavians - I think it was so. Both before and after, right up to the battle of Leafy.
            6. Engineer 1 June 2020 21: 28 New
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              .
              Well, if he was so bad, the princes would not be called by his name, as it happened, for example

              So another tradition. For the Scandinavians, a loser, for the Slavs the ancestor of the dynasty
              Even if several "Igor" merged into one, the father of Svyatoslav very badly finished
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 June 2020 20: 05 New
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    Good evening Michael!
    In defense of my version, I will draw your attention to the fact that up to Svyatoslav inclusively, the distribution of "gives" goes to the "squad" and "cities". Not to elders, not bright princes, not governors, but to cities! Although the list (for example, taken by Oleg) is controversial. For example, Novgorod is mentioned, which is still a quarter century old! There are still inconsistencies, I don’t remember for memory.
    The main other author of the PVL, a century later, describes the territorial division of the participants, and not personalities as in the region!
    As there, the younger squad beats Igor for a second call for tribute to the Drevlyans. I do not remember verbatim but mention Snevold!
    Wall of shields. The Vikings fought with round or drop-shaped shields, the infantry of the Slavs of the Svyatoslav era is described with large growth shields.
    Well, the last “boyars with their squads”, in the era of Svyatoslav Igorevich, the boyars is his eldest squad! Pogostnaya system, when trusted people "boyars" sat on the ground just starting to be, she is not yet 10 years old !!! This is to his death and then, mainly due to his constant absence, a number of governors were able to challenge his son Vladimir! See Polotsk. Rongwold if I'm not mistaken.
    Well, absolutely extreme! How Svyatoslav distributes his children in cities! Kiev - Yaropolk, Drevlyan Land - Oleg, Novgorod asks Vladimir !!! The best people of Novgorod, not the boyars of Novgorod.
    The same Mal in PVL is referred to as the Drevlyansky prince! But where did the rest of the "bright princes" not Rurikovich go?
    Regards, Vlad!
  • Engineer 1 June 2020 13: 54 New
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    Svyatoslav’s team, of course, consisted of professional warriors - completely and completely, and the vast majority of them were Scandinavian mercenaries,

    I can not imagine the course of events under such a condition. Professional warriors and even of foreign origin are very few. The Greeks would have carried them in the first round. According to sources and results, Svyatoslav had a direct analogue of the "large pagan army"
    On the other hand, a squad plus numerous tribal militias can be extremely dangerous. Valent will confirm
    1. Cartalon 1 June 2020 14: 24 New
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      Here the word mercenaries is most likely superfluous, Svyatoslav’s squad, this is the notorious Rus, not yet assimilated Scandinavians, and for the large pagan army they recruited Slavs, voluntarily or not, we won’t know who you refuse to rob.
      1. Engineer 1 June 2020 14: 26 New
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        Yes, even if we ignore the origin of our pros, I still do not add up.
        But with the addition of the tribal militia
      2. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 20: 01 New
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        Quote: Cartalon
        the word mercenaries is probably superfluous

        I agree. The term "allies" is more appropriate. They fought not for a fee, I mean the Varangian component of Svyatoslav’s troops, but for a share, so your remark is accepted. smile
    2. IPC 245 4 June 2020 19: 33 New
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      Right! Warriors need to be fed and maintained, not every state will pull this burden.
  • 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 16: 44 New
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    Not over, just chopped. The last Viking, Birger Magnusson, considered it best to restore order in his own country, rather than rock the boat with expansion.
  • Ryazan87 1 June 2020 11: 59 New
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    Klim Zhukov must be taken very carefully. For example, when he publicly voiced the calculations of the number of troops of Vladimir-Suzdal Rus by the volume of cultivated land, he makes a gross and obvious, not even arithmetic, but a logical mistake. Not to mention the difference in land quality. Plus, to draw conclusions from the 13th century with constant references to the practices of the 16th is a very dubious occupation.
    1. Cartalon 1 June 2020 12: 15 New
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      In general, the calculation of the size of the arable land is the most logical, and the references to the 16th century, well, who is to blame that only documents from the 16th century remained
      1. Ryazan87 1 June 2020 12: 29 New
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        The problem is not in the methodology as such, but in the figures given and ignoring the mass of curious aspects, such as operating with land use measures as measures of area.
        In terms of the lack of documents, this greatly complicates the research, but does not make adequate crude analogies of realities, separated by three centuries.
    2. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 16: 58 New
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      Klim Zhukov must be taken very carefully.
      I agree. It is always worth remembering the Second Commandment and the postulate of Descartes.
  • arturpraetor 1 June 2020 13: 45 New
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    Nuuu, the theories of Klim Zhukov are popular, and, IMHO, are partially true, but the main gag starts where he refuses the developed infantry, although there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Because of this, it turns out that he only takes into account the cavalry, the prince's squad with the boyar militia and, if very lucky, the city regiments. Which is still somewhat radical. As one friend of mine who was fond of archeology said, Klim Zhukov is a good man, but he allows too much of his reconstruction work to influence the experience of a historian. So theories can be taken into account, but I would not build them into absolute and truth. Plus, as you yourself said, the calculation of the number of military personnel exclusively by city is also doubtful.

    Here the thing is that the losses in medieval battles are, as a rule, relatively small. Very rarely, really massive bloodshed occurred. Therefore, it was necessary to try very hard to grind off the core of the squad in battles - and these are, as a rule, heavily armed warriors, capable of both foot and horse riding. Yes, these were few. But if you start attracting the militia, city regiments, mercenaries - a completely different thing begins. In addition, even large losses can be restored - in fact, in any situation, a very small part of the population and available people were recruited into the army. Active princes with loss compensation rarely had problems, the most painful losses were if they killed the core, a small squad, which consisted of highly professional and loyal warriors, whose replacement is difficult to find.
    1. Cartalon 1 June 2020 14: 20 New
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      Do we have references to infantry for the 13-14th century? , at Lipnitsa, the Novgorodians dismounted, and did not come on their own, well, and in the steppe borderland the infantry outside the fortifications is really useless.
      1. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 14: 25 New
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        As far as I remember - enough. And the city regiments were mostly on foot. Princely squads - yes, mostly equestrian, but there were quite specific reasons for that. And then, sometimes doubts arise - for example, according to unreliable information, out of 3 thousand Daniil Galitsky squads, more than half were still on foot. But it is so "one grandmother said" that is unlikely.
        1. Cartalon 1 June 2020 14: 36 New
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          Walking squad it would be strange if the prince on horseback. All the same, a direct mention is necessary that the city regiment is on foot and it went on foot outside the principality, because of the Russian campaigns in Livonia, it does not seem that there was infantry, it was robbed and dumped.
          1. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 14: 39 New
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            I don’t often work directly with sources, but in historical studies, on the basis of which the material was written, it was often mentioned that the city regiments were primarily on foot. If there was cavalry in them, then from among the local boyars.

            In addition, city raids rarely participated in raids and long-distance raids. The prince undertook such actions by the forces of his personal squad, which was mounted. Especially in the steppe they went especially cavalry - to fight the steppe, having as a ballast slow infantry, a lesson for masochists.
            1. Cartalon 1 June 2020 14: 48 New
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              Well, it means that we can assume that the infantry at the French level, if not worse, at least they took it for sieges, although lying with Buvin, the infantry was used with advantage.
              For the era of fragmentation, we definitely do not have a single capture of a foreign city. But how did I capture my own? I’m not going to figure it out, do we have descriptions of a full-fledged siege? For which you need numerous infantry.
              1. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 14: 53 New
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                Quote: Cartalon
                Well, then we can assume that the infantry is at the French level, if not worse

                Absolutely not. A rural militia is possible. City regiments were well-hired and close-knit units. The problem was that they were still on foot, and the prince could not use them of his own free will - for the regiment was the "property" of the city community.
                Quote: Cartalon
                But how did I capture my own? I’m not going to figure it out, do we have descriptions of a full-fledged siege? For which you need numerous infantry.

                With wooden fortification, everything is much simpler than with European stone. The same Klim Zhukov EMNIP claimed that some sieges could be fought by literally hundreds of people, and hundreds - this is enough for the prince's squad. But, I believe, colleagues can tell in more detail.
                1. Cartalon 1 June 2020 15: 09 New
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                  Well, it’s probably not possible to besiege hundreds with Kiev, and Kiev is the main object of the struggle.
                  We have a dilemma with the city regiment: if it is the militia of the townspeople, it is on foot, and if it is a gathering of boyars then it should be equestrian.
                  1. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 15: 16 New
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                    Quote: Cartalon
                    Well, it’s probably not possible to besiege hundreds with Kiev, and Kiev is the main object of the struggle.

                    Basic, but not the only one. And Kiev could be besieged by thousands. Here, after all, it is absolutely not necessary to form a tight ring around the entire perimeter - the city is large, it depends heavily on the supply of supplies. Block all trips - that's enough. You can also storm by no means in all areas. Yes, and the wooden fortifications, and the tree is not so strong that it burns well ...
                    Quote: Cartalon
                    We have a dilemma with the city regiment: if it is the militia of the townspeople, it is on foot, and if it is a gathering of boyars then it should be equestrian.

                    There is no dilemma. Boyars - separately, city regiment - separately. The boyar the prince could take with him, taking them "in proportion", the boyars, as a rule, just carried out military service with the prince. But not the city regiment, which was recruited from the townspeople.
                    1. Cartalon 1 June 2020 15: 30 New
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                      Well then, there should not be a confrontation along the Boyar-townspeople line, and where it is with us, different boyar groups fight in Novgorod, but not any patricians-burghers.
                    2. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 15: 33 New
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                      Boyars are the "flat men" of the community, its main representatives, leaders and voice. At the same time, there was a process of their separation from the community, but not everywhere it was the same, and not everywhere ended simultaneously. In addition, even the boyars were different - there was a small boyar that had closer ties with the community, and there was a large one, which were naturally aristocrats or even oligarchs. And yes, for reference, merchants and just rich townspeople could enter the petty nobility. So you seem just too simplistic to imagine the structure of society of that time.
                    3. Cartalon 1 June 2020 15: 51 New
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                      And you do not contradict yourself? If the boyars are community leaders, how is it possible that the city regiment is not connected with the boyars? By the way, a city regiment in the form of a militia of citizens, in general, for how long can one withdraw from a city without prejudice to economic activity?
                      Therefore, I think if a city regiment has gone beyond the principality it’s the city boyars with their people, and the militia is to protect the walls.
                      Again, how will a free community member without a boyar supply himself on a long campaign?
                      Obviously, the Novgorod boyars did not serve the prince, and in other principalities the boyars could transfer to the princely service only after the princes settled in the estates.
                    4. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 16: 01 New
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                      Quote: Cartalon
                      And you do not contradict yourself?

                      No smile
                      Quote: Cartalon
                      If the boyars are community leaders, how is it possible that the city regiment is not connected with the boyars?

                      Very simple. Participation in the campaign of the boyars is a private affair of the boyars. Participation in the campaign of the city bed from among the community members is already the work of the community members, and therefore without the consent of the veche the city regiment will not help the prince. In previous articles there were examples of how the "alien" princes of the townspeople were even denied assistance in defending the fortresses.
                      Quote: Cartalon
                      By the way, a city regiment in the form of a militia of citizens, in general, for how long can one withdraw from a city without prejudice to economic activity?

                      It goes without saying that not for long. But long military campaigns during wars were rarely conducted, and for external wars, city regiments were almost not involved, except to protect them from invasions.
                      Quote: Cartalon
                      Again, how will a free community member without a boyar supply himself on a long campaign?

                      Once again, the city regiment is a community regiment. Weapons and armor were provided by the community as a whole. A poorly equipped city regiment is the weakness of the community, its inevitable dependence on external forces, which, in strife, is fraught with the rolling of the city to the status of some Turov or Pinsk.
                      Quote: Cartalon
                      Obviously, the Novgorod boyars did not serve the prince, and in other principalities the boyars could transfer to the princely service only after the princes settled in the estates.

                      Because the conditions in different principalities and capital cities could be very different. The indicated configuration is "hospital average". And yes, as far as I remember, Novgorod nobles helped their princes in strife, if their interests coincided. When Roman Mstislavich reigned in Novgorod, and there was a war against Bogolyubsky, the Novgorod boyars clearly did not sit on the stove.

                      In short, politics, politics and politics again. And social policy. You won’t find simple answers here.
                    5. Cartalon 1 June 2020 16: 19 New
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                      Not here we have a simple question: what is the city regiment, whether it is mounted or on foot.
                      For the participation of the city regiment, a decision of the veche is needed, and who has control over the veche, boyars.
                      Perhaps the original version of the city regiment was the militia of the townspeople, but is slowly turning into the militia of the boyar corporation so beloved by Klim Zhukov, I'm sorry to get used to its terminology.
                      And in general, if a campaign to another principality takes place along the river in summer, then there may be a ship's army, and the militia of the townspeople on it, and even a military army, but if the army is poisoned from the rivers, then there is not any infantry there.
                    6. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 16: 30 New
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                      Quote: Cartalon
                      Not here we have a simple question: what is the city regiment, whether it is mounted or on foot.

                      On foot. As a military force, the boyar and city militias should be divided. Boyars are, roughly speaking, people with dough, who are hiring themselves and their retinue, sit on horses, appearing in this form at the call of the prince. With very specific goals, by the way - to weld during the campaigns of the prince. The city regiment is a community militia of its own, only highly organized due to the remaining community traditions, where, in the best traditions of collectivism, there was a common fund, due to which the city regiment armed itself in the event of war. The language of analogies, very approximate, is the Greek hippies and hoplites, or the Roman equities and the city police.
                      Quote: Cartalon
                      For the participation of the city regiment, a decision of the veche is needed, and who has control over the veche, boyars.

                      Not always. Alas, but not all theories about the social structure of Russia boil down to the fact that the boyars are always omnipotent oligarch aristocrats. I somehow feel closer to Froyanov and Mayorov, although they too sometimes have excesses.
                      Quote: Cartalon
                      Perhaps the original version of the city regiment was the militia of the townspeople, but is slowly turning into the militia of the boyar corporation so beloved by Klim Zhukov, I'm sorry to get used to its terminology.

                      Sorry, but I do not share the ideas of Klim Zhukov on this part.
                      Quote: Cartalon
                      And in general, if a campaign to another principality takes place along the river in summer, then there may be a ship's army, and the militia of the townspeople on it, and even a military army, but if the army is poisoned from the rivers, then there is not any infantry there.

                      You are still looking for simple answers to everything. Sorry, I'm not going to simplify the complex.
                    7. Cartalon 1 June 2020 16: 45 New
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                      Okay, behind, I still have little idea of ​​the infantry march hundreds of kilometers in the 12th century.
                      There are no documents, the annals in two say, while there is no time machine, there’s no way to figure it out.
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 June 2020 20: 24 New
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            Quote: Cartalon
            Well then, there should not be a confrontation along the Boyar-townspeople line, and where it is with us, different boyar groups fight in Novgorod, but not any patricians-burghers.

            And it was!
            We look at the structure of the urban community!
            Thousand-sotsky-ten-rank-and-file militias! Tysyatsky respected boyar, Sotsky and the rest are already respected, but not generous people.
            It is doubtful to take as an example the structure of the city regiments of Mr. Veliky Novgorod for all of Russia. But one thing is the regiment of the Lord, another of the Slovenian end. The first could be armored and equestrian, and the second of a mixed type. And do not forget about the ship's army !!!
            However, like hiking in Byzantium! The latter was under Yaroslav. When his son was blinded by the Romei. This is probably the last mention of ship rati and cavalry! Perhaps this is the swan song of the foot tribal militia of ancient Russia.
  • 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 17: 52 New
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    I am tormented by vague doubts about the shortage of horse stock in Russia in those days ....
    1. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 17: 56 New
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      And here you can only shrug. Maybe it was a livestock, maybe it wasn’t. In any case, the horseman is not the first person who has been seated on any horse. Dressing him, putting on shoes, training him, buying him the right horse is all, however, neither fast nor cheap. So there were obviously not many cavalry at that time, and in the future the rural militia, for example, provided far from first-class cavalry, which, however, was quite used for auxiliary purposes.
      1. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 17: 59 New
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        The question remains - what did they plow on? Dogs and deer, do not offer! laughing
        1. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 18: 02 New
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          Plowed at the mumukas laughing I mean, cattle is our everything. And draft power, and meat and dairy products, and so on and on ... The Slavs seem to have tamed this animal for a long time, and used it actively.
          1. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 18: 12 New
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            Hmmm ... "What is your evidence?" (WITH)
            1. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 18: 16 New
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              Here, I have no idea at all. This is on the topic of GVK, I can present a list of sources, and here - only sobsno information itself. It is possible that this is generally a stereotype, but it seems to be the main draft animal in the early Slavs - namely, cattle. Horses are already a somewhat later phenomenon.
              1. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 18: 22 New
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                Artyom! Sorry for God's sake! I will not oppose the defense of the doctoral!
              2. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 18: 27 New
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                And why aren't you an opponent in defending a doctoral? laughing
              3. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 18: 42 New
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                Because higher education, which did not take place in youth, by the age of 47 becomes not even a "ghostly dream." The profession that I own brings money, but does not bring satisfaction. Moreover, not documented. It remains to be a jester, in real and virtual.
                Joking does not cancel the presence of a sword, the presence of a sword does not cancel the ability to wield an ax.
          2. Engineer 1 June 2020 19: 23 New
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            Plowed and on horses and oxen
            Moreover, some archaeologists believe that more is on horseback, unlike the Germans
            The Tale of Bygone Years
            when obrin went, he did not allow harnessing a horse or ox but ordered to harness three, four or five wives in a cart

            Volga and Mikula. Bylina
            The screaming mare has a nightingale
            She’s got some silk,
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 June 2020 10: 15 New
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    Anton, good morning!
    A horse in Russia of those times was "multifunctional" with an ordinary combatant, he walked under the saddle and could pull a plow! Only a few could allow a purely war horse. This was observed later. The war of the local cavalry, receiving couples, fatherland and dachas, in most cases, they themselves plowed, sowed, stung and exported. And their "comrade" along with ordinary horses did not fly. But according to the letter, he had to expose more and military slaves! Including equestrian !!! Oh about their horses and say nothing.
    I'm afraid Mikhail and Artyom each in their own way idealize the pre-Mongol period of Russia. I think true somewhere in the middle !!!
  • 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 17: 43 New
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    I will subscribe to every word!
    As for K. Zhukov, exaggerating to the point of absurdity: “First there was heavy cavalry, and then tanks appeared” laughing
  • Engineer 1 June 2020 09: 34 New
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    Frederick I Barbarossa, who did support the last of the Rostislavichs, and forced the de jure vassals of the Poles to return the prince to his possession. The Hungarians were not ready for this, and the local boyars, having tasted the foreign occupation, decided that they simply had no better option than an alcoholic and a womanizer. As a result of this, already in 1189, Vladimir again began to rule in Galich, the Hungarians were expelled, and the emperor received a modest monetary compensation of 2000 hryvnias, which had to be scraped off by all the Galician people.

    Fritz Fritsevich in beauty thrashed. The episode clearly shows that orientation to the SRI could in other cases have a stabilizing role for the Galician principality.
    Further involvement of the South-West of Russia into the orbit of the Holy Roman Empire would be methodologically very interesting. Would there be an answer to the eternal question West for us, good or evil?
    1. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 09: 57 New
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      Denis! hi
      Now the "uzpatriots" will catch up and the academic question will spill over into another holivar.
      1. Engineer 1 June 2020 10: 03 New
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        So in fact the Principality of Galicia-Volyn entered the Western world for hundreds of years, but not as an object, but as a defeated subject. So I thought, and if this step was meaningful, independent and voluntary. And not under Poland and on, but into the orbit of the SRI
        1. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 10: 07 New
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          and so entered the Western world
          This is just about to provoke.
          1. Engineer 1 June 2020 10: 14 New
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            Let there be a holivar. Let's break up the comments in a normal, not marginal, article.
          2. Korsar4 1 June 2020 11: 53 New
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            To begin with, the Center will have to be found. It's like a Pole at Winnie the Pooh.
        2. ANB
          ANB 4 June 2020 14: 43 New
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          Subject and object must be interchanged.
          1. Engineer 4 June 2020 14: 50 New
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            You're right. Confused out of the blue
            1. ANB
              ANB 4 June 2020 19: 39 New
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              It happens that I myself confused before.
    2. Edward Vashchenko 1 June 2020 09: 57 New
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      Denis welcome
      Further involvement of the South-West of Russia into the orbit of the Holy Roman Empire would be methodologically very interesting.

      The truth is interesting, but Fritz Frantsovich, it seems to me, had something to do in more interesting places. There is some kind of modernization, in my opinion, but I do not insist.
      Would there be an answer to the eternal question West for us, good or evil?

      But is it not better for us not to rack our brains on strange questions?
      Enemies interfere, allies help.
      1. Engineer 1 June 2020 10: 12 New
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        True, it’s interesting, but Fritz Frantsovich, I think, had something to do in more interesting places

        Undoubtedly, emperors could not save the prince's ass all the time. But, let's say, during the crisis, bring a little stability from the outside. And then there is already meaningful integration. Naturally, this is a long-term strategic project. You have to think with your head, marry the German princesses, and not any Polovtsian-Berendey rabble. Give hands to the papal bishops if they too persistently begin to climb. Dad himself is to bear sole respect and respect. Agree with the community. There is no hurry with unity, but slowly unify the churches. Then, psychologically, there was no such religious tension.
        The final. The election of the emperor. The elector of Galicia and the king of Russia speaks immediately after the elector of Bohemia.
        But is it not better for us not to rack our brains on strange questions?

        I wanted a strange Monday morning.)
        1. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 10: 37 New
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          Interesting model!
        2. Edward Vashchenko 1 June 2020 13: 13 New
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          You have to think with your head, marry the German princesses, and not any Polovtsian-Berendey rabble.

          Lawless Heart,
          and they write that they were beauties,
          and the Germans are scary lol
          1. Engineer 1 June 2020 13: 17 New
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            and the Germans are scary

            In the struggle for history, all means are good))
            You can focus on the Austrians. A lot of pretty ones.
            1. Edward Vashchenko 1 June 2020 13: 26 New
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              I joked that in Germany there are also nothing))) and even among English women or UK citizens)))
              1. Engineer 1 June 2020 13: 33 New
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                I joked, in Germany, too, there is nothing)))

                1. Edward Vashchenko 1 June 2020 13: 40 New
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                  or in the middle ages
                  1. Engineer 1 June 2020 13: 43 New
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                    Is that definitely German? )))
                    Haplogroup verified? The operator approved ???)))
                    Oh, these reconstructions.
                    I do not really believe in them. Somehow I wondered about the appearance of Nefertiti. The number of reconstruction options on one material turned out to be considerable
                    1. Edward Vashchenko 1 June 2020 14: 11 New
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                      Haplogroup verified? The operator approved ???)))

                      this omission on my part needs to be corrected wassat
    3. Cartalon 1 June 2020 09: 59 New
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      For this, the SRI would have to swallow Poland or Hungary completely, and it was difficult to influence through the head.
      1. Engineer 1 June 2020 10: 18 New
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        Not necessary. Just the Principality of Galicia becomes an independent force as in the same Daniel.
        Poland and Hungary, in this case, a buffer against excessive penetration of the Germans. Southwest Russia - Germany's natural ally in its conflicts with Poland and Hungary
        1. Cartalon 1 June 2020 11: 51 New
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          In order to become an independent force, you just need to be this force. Suppose GVK becomes a vassal of the SRI, it would probably help Daniel in some kind of negotiations, while Frederick the second didn’t care much for everything happening north of the Alps, and then what? The empire is weakening and unable to protect its vassal from Poland and Lithuania, unless the Teutons are sent there.
          Novgorod could integrate into the West with the help of the Hansa on an equal footing, and even then I have little idea if it would be possible to provide protection from Moscow in the military north, they could possibly provide bread.
          1. Engineer 1 June 2020 12: 20 New
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            In order to become an independent force, you just need to be this force.

            Daniel was power. SRI is not so much a defender as a fulcrum. Putting on the SRI, we immediately take Poland into two fires. It just had to be done earlier.
            The bottleneck remains - the dynastic crisis of 1323. By this time, a dynasty closely linked by matrimonial ties with the Germans should take shape. Then there is hope to sail out
            Novgorod could integrate into the West with the help of the Hansa on equal terms,

            On equal rights never. Novgorod raw unequal appendage.
            The main problem is that Novgorod as a port sucks. Pskov is better, but "big brother is watching you"
            The second problem - dependence on grain supplies could not be overcome through imports until the 16th century. It was too late by then
            1. Cartalon 1 June 2020 12: 40 New
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              What is SRI after 1250? What can, in principle, be relied on?
              Novgorod could get equal rights if it strove for it, given the weakness and diversity of political forces in the North of Europe, conditions could be beaten out, but military assistance is unlikely.
              1. Engineer 1 June 2020 12: 47 New
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                What is SRI after 1250?

                Since 1273, the possession of the Habsburgs. Less empires, more realism. What we need
                Novgorod could get equal if it sought to take it into account given the weakness and diversity of political forces in northern Europe

                The Hanseatic are very tough. Danes will confirm
                1. Cartalon 1 June 2020 12: 50 New
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                  Is it straight ownership? The possession is Austria, it is the Habsburgs and it worried about the Hungarians, of course, butted, but I don’t remember the Poles as it is.
                  1. Engineer 1 June 2020 12: 59 New
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                    Possession is a bad word, I agree. Under the rule of the Habsburgs.
                    but I don’t remember with the Poles.

                    So we do not sit still. Instead of Kiev, we ourselves are looking towards Poland.
                    My concept has several weaknesses.
                    One of them is impossible to correctly assess the danger of Lithuania. At Daniel, without 10 minutes, the Russian principality in the orbit of Galitsky. One hundred years later, they themselves are tightly in Lithuanian politics
                    1. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 14: 22 New
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                      Quote: Engineer
                      One of them is impossible to correctly assess the danger of Lithuania. At Daniel, without 10 minutes, the Russian principality in the orbit of Galitsky. One hundred years later, they themselves are tightly in Lithuanian politics

                      If Danilka had not rammed at the end of his reign in the best traditions of East European plums of all polymers, then something good would have happened. Lithuania, after all, gained strength due to peculiar conditions, when, for example, there was the possibility of relatively easy expansion to the south and southeast. If from this direction it is supported by a centralized state with a single monarch and a strong army - and Leo even with the limited capabilities of the Lithuanians beat them - then they are not gaining strength, they are barely able to maintain the onslaught of the crusaders, and are gradually forced to strengthen ties with the Romanovichs. And voila - instead of ON, the Kingdom of Russia is on the map of Europe, only without concessions from Galicia to the Poles. And with much more centralized power. A completely different conversation ...
                      1. Edward Vashchenko 1 June 2020 14: 37 New
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                        traditions of Eastern European plums of all polymers,

                        good
    4. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 10: 04 New
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      By the way, the author is a great specialist in such puzzles.
    5. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 13: 03 New
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      Quote: Engineer
      Further involvement of the South-West of Russia into the orbit of the Holy Roman Empire would be methodologically very interesting.

      Denis, were you drawn to the alternative? smile
      Yes, not just an alternative, but an alternative to the "Russophobic" one, in which you boldly and ruthlessly surrender Russian lands - moreover, completely voluntarily, which is especially outrageous! - to some Germans, emperors-shamampereram. laughing
      But the most outrageous is this:
      Quote: Engineer
      Would there be an answer to the eternal question West for us, good or evil?

      What kind of doubt? What is good for a German is Russian death, if I do not confuse anything. laughing
      But seriously, is it good now, for example, to Czechs or Slovaks? In general, you proposed the same fate to Galich and Volhynia, as it seems to me, if you look very much in general. Of course, they would have their own specifics, of course, the fate of Poland and Lithuania could have turned out quite differently, but in general, as historical practice shows, most likely now we would have an additional bunch of small states, which are full of Central Europe, with great ambition and small opportunities - Volyn, Galicia, Polonium, Silesia, Mazovia, some Yatvagia, Zemaitiya, etc.
      1. Engineer 1 June 2020 13: 13 New
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        Denis, were you drawn to the alternative?

        Michael, good afternoon.
        I myself do not regret the alternative, but something closed here)

        Yes, not just an alternative, but an alternative to the "Russophobic" one, in which you boldly and ruthlessly surrender Russian lands - moreover, completely voluntarily, which is especially outrageous! - to some Germans, emperors-shamampereram.

        So nominally. No better and no worse than begging a label in the Horde. Although it’s better for me.))
        But seriously, is it good now, for example, to Czechs or Slovaks?

        Compared to Ukraine and Russia? The answer is obvious.
        Identity saved. Both national and cultural. And the fact of a peaceful divorce without war clearly says that people basically did everything right.
        Central Europe, with great ambition and small opportunities - Volhynia, Galicia, Polonia, Silesia, Mazovia, some Yatvagia, Zemaitiya, etc.

        The analogue of Croatia in Western Ukraine is definitely no worse than reality. The analogue of Slovenia is definitely better. That case when I'm for the notorious diversity
        1. Trilobite Master 1 June 2020 13: 42 New
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          Yes, Denis, welcome. hi
          So we will instantly move from the plane of history, even if alternative, to the plane of philosophy with its eternal question about the meaning of life. smile
          In relation to this topic, it will sound something like this: "which is better - consistently satisfying to eat and sleep peacefully in your cozy small state, or starve and freeze, building spaceships as part of an empire." Here, I am afraid, to each his own, so the question "for good or evil" in the general form has no answer. smile
          1. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 19: 06 New
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            Yes, I argued with the Doctor three years ago on this topic.
    6. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 13: 54 New
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      Quote: Engineer
      Fritz Fritsevich in beauty thrashed. The episode clearly shows that orientation to the SRI could in other cases have a stabilizing role for the Galician principality.

      Not everything is so simple with Fritz Fritsevich, given some of his kinship ties ... In the following articles this moment will still be considered from the point of view of other actors.
      Quote: Engineer
      Further involvement of the South-West of Russia into the orbit of the Holy Roman Empire would be methodologically very interesting. Would there be an answer to the eternal question West for us, good or evil?

      I would say both. Living near the West, it is easier to keep up with the life and main trends of Europe, which will soon become the "main engine of progress" on the planet. But this closeness determines participation in the entire European political mess. Sworn friends - more than successful definition laughing

      In any case, if suddenly the South-West became a vassal of the emperor, then this would be a pure formality, and it would be quickly discarded. Plus, these are the Hohenstaufen, who had relatives in Russia - when they are replaced by other dynasties, emperors will often even score vassals closer to their de jure, i.e. Poland. Their problems, all sorts of Przheysl Otakara II are much more relevant for them than the relatively distant Russia. And for Russia, by that time, the Horde policy would be more relevant.
      1. Engineer 1 June 2020 13: 58 New
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        In any case, if suddenly the South-West became a vassal of the emperor, then this would be a pure formality, and it would be quickly discarded.

        Why drop it. It is only if it becomes unprofitable
        emperors will often even score vassals closer to their de jure, i.e. Poland.

        So we, darling, will pay attention to this am
        1. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 14: 09 New
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          Quote: Engineer
          Why drop it. It is only if it becomes unprofitable

          “My dear, do you want to rape me?” “What didn’t you think about, grandmother!” “You don’t want to, but you have to ...”

          From the 1240s, Ulus Jochi will have his own special opinion on such a vassality. Empire do not care, but GVK rake in full. Yes, and the Horde citizenship in the conditions of the South-West could bring completely unexpected results. Danila Romanovich was suffering, but Lev Danilych managed to get a pretty "roof" from one little-known beclarbek, and almost all of his rule he received very specific support - both military and political - from the Horde, on such a scale that his father and from the emperor did not dream.
          Quote: Engineer
          So we, darling, will pay attention to this

          I don’t know, as an avid Aishnik, I already have a persistent allergy to ideas to conquer Poland. Well, nafig, the Poles are one of the most inconvenient for the conquest of nations: they can obey and they will, but then they will become permanent hemorrhoids. Let them better exist in the size of Poland Primordial, and try to survive against the progress of the degradation of the central government against their western Aryan neighbors. Then they themselves will come for help laughing
          1. Engineer 1 June 2020 14: 12 New
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            Already a persistent allergy to ideas to conquer Poland.

            God forbid to conquer. But to bite and stimulate separatism is it.
            1. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 14: 18 New
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              Also a so-so venture. Poland should be able to remain a buffer between Germany and Russia. And if you stimulate her ambitions towards the unification of all the Western Slavs - an impressive show is guaranteed! And most importantly - as long as there is a mahach of all the Poles, Russia can slowly decide its affairs. Well or not slowly. And by that time, all directions should be made safe to the maximum, and not get into other people's conflicts - the Turks from the south will begin to back up, and this is el zanozo in la sedalische, all the forces will have to be sent there.
              1. Engineer 1 June 2020 14: 23 New
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                Poland is secondary in a good way. I don’t know what to do with Lithuania. Gedimin’s comrades are somehow very cool in terms of abilities. As if bang - and they suddenly became stronger than South-Western Russia. If under Lev Danilovich their state is not strangled, then there are no options.
                1. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 14: 29 New
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                  Quote: Engineer
                  Gedimin’s comrades are somehow very cool in terms of abilities.

                  Only if before that they were allowed to strengthen enough. But they were allowed to do so, having made mistakes and opened up directions for expansion. Without this, Lithuania remains within the borders of plus or minus of modern Lithuania, gets stuck in the war with the crusaders, and is forced to increase its dependence on those who are not pretentious against it - i.e. Romanovichs.
                  Quote: Engineer
                  If under Lev Danilovich their state is not strangled, then there are no options.

                  It is enough to simply drive beyond the "historical" borders of Russia, holding Gorodno, Novogorodok and other cities. But here something completely different begins - after Lev Danilych there must be a strong leader. Yuri I was not at all in any way. Actually, the collapse and lightning-fast strengthening of Lithuania began precisely in his reign.
                  1. Engineer 1 June 2020 14: 35 New
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                    Lev Danilovich is the best you can count on. Do not put Julius Caesar in Galich. If I didn’t finish it, I thought that it would do so, so everything that happened later was natural. The rise of Lithuania is not just a combination of factors, but an objective course of the historical process. Accordingly, the sunset of the South-West of Russia was inevitable.
                    1. arturpraetor 1 June 2020 14: 45 New
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                      Dear colleague, let's not get ahead of ourselves all the same? Separate articles will be devoted to these matters. It will not be interesting, if we discuss them in advance. wink But no, I don’t think the strengthening of Lithuania and the decline of the South-West are logical. A lot of subjective and random led to the second, namely, the second caused such an easy and quick appearance of the first - by the time Gedimin came to power, he had no trivial competitors in Russia, a banal vacuum of power had formed there.
                      1. 3x3zsave 1 June 2020 15: 31 New
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                        Voooot! The issue of the lag in the development of individual peoples has already been discussed more than once. Moreover, in the case of Lithuania, this lag was positive.
    7. Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 June 2020 10: 20 New
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      The Galician, and later the Galician-Volyn and Polotsk reigns repeatedly received similar chances from the Western Catholic world, but did not always throw themselves into their arms. Apparently, something stopped the rulers! And even the crown did not always seduce !!!
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