Vyborg is ours. Moscow treaty that saved Leningrad

Residents of Leningrad welcome tankers 20th tank crews on T-28 tanks returning from the Karelian Isthmus

80 years ago, on March 12, 1940, the Moscow Peace Treaty was signed, which ended the Soviet-Finnish War of 1939–1940. Russia returned part of Karelia and Vyborg, lost as a result of the collapse of the Russian Empire. Stalin decided to strengthen the defense of the northern capital - Leningrad.

Moscow's attempts to stop the war with Finland

Throughout the Winter War, Moscow made efforts to reason Helsinki and resolve the conflict peacefully. The Stalinist government reacted positively to the first peaceful probe launched by the Finnish government through the writer H. Vuolioki. On January 8, 1940, she had a conversation with the Soviet Plenipotentiary in Stockholm, A. M. Kollontai, about the beginning of peace negotiations with a view to resolving the Soviet-Finnish conflict.

Moscow accepted Sweden’s offer, expressing a desire to accept the role of mediator in order to facilitate an unofficial Soviet-Finnish exchange of views on the peace agreement. On January 29, 1940, a statement was sent to the Swedish Foreign Minister H.E. Gunther, stating that the Soviet Union, in principle, does not object to concluding peace with Helsinki, but wants to know what concessions the Finns are ready to begin.

However, unofficial Soviet-Finnish contacts were complicated by the policies of England and France. Western democracies at this time did everything to drag out the Soviet-Finnish war. London and Paris decided to attack the USSR (How the West was preparing a "crusade" against the USSR) Finland was actively supplied weapons and ammunition. Finns also supplied arms and ammunition to the United States. The Americans helped Helsinki and financially, providing a loan for the purchase of weapons. In Scandinavia, the Anglo-French expeditionary forces were preparing to land for assistance from the Finnish army. Also, Westerners were preparing an attack on the USSR in the Caucasus (a blow to the oil fields). On the southern flank, the West planned to draw Turkey into the war with the USSR.

In addition, the Finnish army has not yet been defeated. The war seemed to drag out. In these conditions, Helsinki was in no hurry with the start of peace talks. On the contrary, the Finns were looking for an opportunity to continue the war. Finnish Foreign Minister Tanner visited Stockholm three times in February 1940 and asked Sweden to send 30 volunteers for help. body. Sweden has already provided Finland with all kinds of military assistance, and supplied arms and ammunition. It did not stop thousands of volunteers from fighting on the side of Finland. The issue of the passage of the Anglo-French troops through Sweden to Finland was also decided. Therefore, the Finnish government of Ryuti took time and invited Moscow to communicate the Soviet conditions of the world.

Moscow perfectly understood the game of Helsinki. The Soviet side again took the initiative and communicated its peaceful conditions through Kollontai on February 23, 1940. At the same time, Moscow turned to the British government with a request to transfer these conditions to the Finns and take on the role of mediator in the establishment of Soviet-Finnish negotiations. The Soviet government thus tried to neutralize the British efforts to prolong the war. On February 24, London refused to take on the role of mediator.

The meeting of the Red Army units, who returned from the Karelian Isthmus, at the Kirov bridge (currently the Trinity bridge) in Leningrad. March 30, 1940

Peace talks

Meanwhile, the situation on the Soviet-Finnish front has fundamentally changed. The Red Army in February 1940 broke through the main strip of the Mannerheim Line. The Finnish army was defeated and could no longer offer serious resistance. On March 4, the Commander-in-Chief of the Finnish Army Mannerheim reported to the government that the troops in the Karelian direction were in a critical situation. Helsinki, deprived of the opportunity to continue to drag out the war and wait for help from England and France, expressed his readiness to enter into peace talks.

The government of Ryti informed Kollontai that, in principle, it accepts the conditions of the USSR, considering them as the basis for negotiations. However, under pressure from London and Paris, the Finnish government instead of sending a delegation to Moscow for negotiations on March 4 asked Moscow to clarify the passage of the new Soviet-Finnish border and the amount of compensation that Finland could receive from the USSR for the ceded territories. On March 6, the Soviet government again invited Helsinki to send a delegation for peace talks. This time, Finland agreed and sent a delegation led by Ryti. The first official meeting of the Soviet and Finnish delegations on the conclusion of a peace treaty was held on March 7, 1940. After listening to Soviet proposals, the Finnish side asked for time to consult with Helsinki.

Meanwhile, the West again made clear to Helsinki that it was ready to support Finland. The head of the British government, Chamberlain, speaking in parliament, said that England and France would continue to support Finland. London and Paris reminded Helsinki that if Helsinki wished, the Anglo-French expeditionary forces would be immediately dispatched, Norway and Sweden would not be asked again. However, the problem was that the Finns could no longer conduct military operations. The martial law of Finland demanded immediate peace.

Leningraders on Liteiny Bridge meet a column of OT-130 tanks (a flamethrower tank based on the T-26 tank) that have returned from the Karelian Isthmus. March 30, 1940

Solemn meeting of the Red Army from the composition of the units returned from the Karelian Isthmus

Vyborg is ours

The negotiations ended on March 12, 1940 with the conclusion of a peace treaty between the USSR and Finland. It was signed by the Chairman of the Government (SNK) Vyacheslav Molotov from the Soviet state, Andrei Zhdanov, member of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR, and Alexander Vasilevsky, representative of the General Staff. The agreement was signed by Finland: Prime Minister Risto Ryti, Minister Juho Paasikivi, General Headquarters Karl Walden, Member of the Foreign Policy Committee of the Parliament V. Vojonmaa.

According to the Moscow Treaty, the Karelian Isthmus with Vyborg and Vyborg Bay passed to the Soviet Union; a number of islands in the Gulf of Finland; the western and northern shores of Lake Ladoga with the cities of Kexholm, Sortavala, Suoyarvi, as a result, the entire lake was completely within the borders of the USSR; part of the Finnish territory with the city of Kuolajärvi, part of the Rybachy and Sredny peninsulas. Moscow leased part of the Hanko Peninsula (Gangut) with adjoining islands for a period of 30 years (annual rent was 8 million marks) to create a naval base on it that protects the entrance to the Gulf of Finland. Finland pledged not to contain armed vessels with a displacement of more than 400 tons in the Barents Sea and to have no more than 15 armed vessels there for defense. The Finns were forbidden to have a submarine fleet and a military in the North Aviation. Also, Finland could not create military and naval bases and other military installations in the North. Both parties undertook to refrain from attacking each other, not to enter into alliances and not to join coalitions directed against one of the contracting parties. True, the Finns soon violated this point, becoming allies of Nazi Germany.

In the economic part of the Soviet Russia agreement, the right of free transit through the Petsamo region (Pechenga) to Norway and vice versa was granted. At the same time, freights were exempted from customs control and were not taxed. Soviet citizens and planes had the right of free passage and passage through Petsamo to Norway. Finland granted the Soviet side the right to transit goods to Sweden. In order to create the shortest railway route for transit from Russia to Sweden, Moscow and Helsinki pledged to build a part of the railway, each on its own territory, to connect the Soviet city of Kandalaksha with the Finnish city of Kemijärvi. They planned to build the road in 1940.

Additionally, on October 11, 1940, an agreement on the Åland Islands was signed between the USSR and Finland in Moscow. The Finnish side undertook to demilitarize the Åland Islands, not to build fortifications there and not to provide them for the military forces of other countries. Moscow received the right to maintain its consulate on the Åland Islands to verify compliance with the agreement.

Thus, the Stalinist government, in anticipation of the war with the Reich, decided to increase the defense capability of Leningrad, the second capital of the USSR, the country's largest industrial and cultural center. It is possible that it was the transfer of the border from Leningrad that saved the city from its capture by the Nazis and Finns during the Great Patriotic War. Moscow returned the lands of Karelia and Vyborg, which belonged to the Russian Empire and transferred to the Grand Duchy of Finland, when it was part of the Russian state. The Soviet Union secured the only railway to Murmansk. The Gulf of Finland was actually turning into the inland sea of ​​our state.

The war showed Stalin the real state of affairs in the army and aviation, their readiness for military operations with a serious enemy. The armed forces, despite all the successes in improving the country's defense capabilities in recent years, were still “raw”. It took a lot of work on the bugs.

The victory in the war with Finland strengthened the position of the USSR in Eastern Europe. Small border states, previously hostile to the USSR, were forced to moderate their ambitions and make concessions. So, in the summer of 1940, Russia without war returned to its Baltic countries - Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Also in the summer of 1940, Moscow without war returned Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina to the USSR. Romania had to give in.

Residents of Leningrad welcome tankers of the 20th heavy tank brigade returning from the Karelian Isthmus to the place of permanent deployment. Pictured is a 1938 release car. April 1940

Comments

[Vladimir_2U]

At Khalkhin-Gol, our guys gave the Japanese a hard teeth, so they didn't really look in our direction, but in Finland, at the initial stage, a hat-trick "happened", and it turned out badly sideways.

[Insurgent]

Vyborg is ours. Moscow treaty that saved Leningrad

In general, the significance of the "Winter War", the impact of its results on the further course of the Second World War, which led to the Victory, is greatly underestimated.

At different times, this war was either underestimated or hushed up, then urged it to be ashamed and sprinkle ash on its heads ...

But what everyone should understand without exception, that we MUST bow our heads to the memory of the heroes.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Insurgent

the significance of the "Winter War", the impact of its results on the further course of the Second World War, which led to the Victory, is greatly underestimated

I completely agree with you, while the negative impact on the hearing, in general, but the positive aspects are completely not recalled.

[Insurgent]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

a negative impact on the hearing, in general, but the positive aspects are completely not recalled

And there can be no talk of "negative influence", the war reached the goals set by the leadership of the USSR - it secured Leningrad, made it impossible to capture "outright" + Murmansk Railway.

Need to talk about lessons war, which showed the limited ability of the Red Army to maintain a database in modern conditions.
And conclusions were drawn. But until the fateful morning of 22.06.1941 there was very little time left ...

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Insurgent

And there can be no question of "negative influence"

Still how can, unfortunately, it is not about the conclusions of the political and military leadership of the USSR, but about the conclusions of the German leadership, albeit false, about the weakness of the USSR in general and the Red Army in particular.

And conclusions were drawn. But until the fateful morning of 22.06.1941 there was very little time left ...

Namely, but if the victory over Finland were more convincing, it is possible that the USSR would have had an extra peaceful year.

[Deck]

“I met the news of the truce at the hospital in Cherepovets. They danced for joy, ”the veteran recalls. - The Finnish war was completely useless; even our country was expelled from the League of Nations ... This war was wrong, unjust. Therefore, now everyone is silent, no one talks about it. We laid there 140 thousand soldiers, 40 thousand were injured. Especially on the Karelian Isthmus. Two divisions were surrounded, ours did not leave. Everything new - tanks, artillery - everything was abandoned! Thousands of people died! The Finns legally fought, defended their territory, their homeland. We did not have any hatred towards them. It's my personal opinion. And why did we go there? Why this war was needed, I don’t know. ”
This is the opinion of Colonel Yuri Vladimirovich Tochigin, who will be 5 years old on July 99. Which was a young lieutenant at the front in late 1939 in the 44th Infantry Division. Participated in the defense of Kiev, Moscow and Tula. Now lives in St. Petersburg.
But what does the opinion of a man sitting out at -40 in the snow near Suomussalmi and coming out of the encirclement with fights mean compared to the opinion of the brave soldiers of the couch front

[Volzhanin64]

Let's now rely on the opinion of one of the veterans of that war, this is his personal opinion. Let's also support those who call for the fact that the blockade of Leningrad was senseless and it was necessary to surrender the city, thereby saving the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. So you can surrender and sell the whole of Russia, hiding behind various "humane goals". And it is not for this strategist-former lieutenant to judge the correctness and justice of that Winter War.

[Giuseppina]

sono d'accordo con te

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Deck

This is the opinion of Colonel Yuri Vladimirovich Tochigin,

Well, of course, he, from his cellar knows better than the leadership of the country from its tower.

Quote: Deck

We laid there 140 thousand soldiers, 40 thousand were injured.

Since when is irrevocable loss killed more than 3 times higher than recurring injured? Usually, everything is exactly the opposite.
Bends, with all due respect to the veteran, Colonel.

[rocket757]

The government took measures to ensure the security of its country .... it is not often when it happens peacefully, and other countries have nothing to say in our direction, because ALL did the same, if they could of course!
This is our story, accept as it was.
EVERYTHING is finished.

[Deck]

At different times this war was underestimated or hushed up,

In these times, the country was called the USSR, the one that defeated the Nazis. How did they know what they were proud of, and what not. But here Mr. Insurgent explained everything to us here.

[Bar1]

could Stalin occupy ALL of Finland? Yes, he could. But for some reason, he was satisfied with several small areas, which was one of the reasons for the siege of Leningrad. Stalin needed to take Finland as a whole or, against the backdrop of the German conquests of all of Europe, it would not look like a flagrant aggression, especially since Finland - this is RI province. But we wouldn’t get a hostile state near the borders of the USSR. Or at least move the border away from Leningrad on the verge of a big war.
In general, all these Leninist national borderlands and self-determination, up to secession, is, as we see, not just a mistake, but worse, all the national borderlands of the Republic of Ingushetia and the USSR are now enemies of Russia, therefore the policy of creating "equal" republics is not even Lenin's delusion, but what something more, a programmed policy for the collapse of Great Russia.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Bar1

In general, all these Leninist national borderlands and self-determination, up to secession, is, as we see, not just a mistake, but worse, all the national borderlands of the Republic of Ingushetia and the USSR are now enemies of Russia, therefore the policy of creating "equal" republics is not even Lenin's delusion, but what something more, a programmed policy for the collapse of Great Russia.

You're not right. The fact is that when Finland was annexed to Russia, the Finns were still a nation, but with the development of capitalism in the Russian Empire they turned into a nation and they gained a national awareness, the carrier of which was the Finnish bourgeoisie, which defended its markets and Finland could be annexed only if the Finnish Red Guard won. In the USSR, only those suburbs were united where Soviet power was established, the power of the proletariat, to which foreign prejudices are alien.

[Bar1]

Quote: Alexander Green

but with the development of capitalism in the Russian Empire, they turned into a nation and they gained a national awareness, the bearer of which was the Finnish bourgeoisie,

you don’t just need to quote Lenin. And when did the USSR fall apart in Ukraine and in Kyrgyzstan say, who won? Yes, no one. It was just that they gave the Russian lands to the nationalists and that’s all, although they could not have given it up and no one would have rocked it. So in Finland, and in Poland too at that time, the authorities were Russians and the police were also Russian, no nationalists would could take power if they did not give it to them.
And who gave? But this is the most interesting. Then he gave Lenin with his Jewish party, and in 80-90 who? Gorbachev with Yakovlev and Borka with Kravchuk. The rest did not want so much power. Here they need to figure out who they are and where they got such thoughts from.
As for the "national consciousness". This philosophical category must be grown and directed, if left on its own, then nationalism will really grow, but it must be prohibited, not supported, and there will be no "national consciousness".

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Bar1

do not just quote Lenin

Why not? Who is more authoritative in this matter: you or Lenin?
V.I. Lenin is just right, and with your answer you showed your complete ignorance in this matter. The collapse of the Russian Empire began after the February Revolution of 1917, everywhere on the outskirts came to power the national bourgeoisie, which was closely within the framework of monarchical Russia and it destroyed it. IN AND. Understanding Lenin. that it’s impossible to break peoples through the knee, he united these suburbs into a voluntary Soviet Union. This was possible only with the presence of Soviet power on the outskirts and in Russia. In 1991, the newly revived bourgeoisie destroyed the Soviet Union, the reasons are the same as in 1917.

[Bar1]

Quote: Alexander Green

The collapse of the Russian Empire began after the February Revolution of 1917,

ignorant is you, the Provisional Government did not give any land to anyone. And Lenin gave EVERYTHING and in addition to the Brest Peace. Only the Council of People's Commissars recognized independence of Finland after the October Revolution.
Such grammarians here do not know anything, but persist in ignorance. In essence, Lenin created Finland and Poland, which became hostile to the USSR.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Bar1

ignoramus is you, the Provisional Government did not give any land to anyone

And no one asked the Provisional Government; national governments were created in all the outskirts, which announced the creation of independent republics, and nothing could drive them into the empire again. The outskirts where Soviet power was established united voluntarily, and this is thanks to V.I. To Lenin. And the fact that you do not understand this, indicates that you are a victim of the exam.

[captain]

The beginning on Khalkhin Gol was not brilliant either. Therefore, Zhukov was sent there (and Colonel Bogdanov).

[DMB 75]

It is possible that it was the transfer of the border from Leningrad that saved the city from its capture by the Nazis and Finns during the Great Patriotic War

Here I completely agree, it was these kilometers that were not enough for the Nazis ..

The Soviet Union secured the only railway to Murmansk.

How many payloads will be delivered through it later ... I consider the results of the war to be positive for our country.

[Deck]

it was precisely these kilometers that the fascists did not have.

The Nazis attacked Leningrad from the south. You know?

[Kot_Kuzya]

And the Finnish fascists attacked Leningrad from the north. You know?

[Deck]

Finnish fascists

Your invention? Well done! There were always white finns, but here the increase came out

[Kot_Kuzya]

Do you know that the Finns used to have swastika and racial segregation?

[Deck]

They still have a swastika, since in Finland it is not a symbol of fascism, just as there is no fascism itself. I know about the deportation of Finns, restrictions on rights in the USSR, I hope you will be able to tell us about your discoveries about racial segregation in Finland

[Kot_Kuzya]

Well, then it will be a great discovery for you to pursue a policy of assimilation of Karelians in the occupied territories by the Finns and a policy of racial segregation, when the Finns were considered the first grade, the Karelians the second grade, and the Russians the third grade.

[Deck]

We did not have any segregation in the occupied Finnish territories (Old Finland). Those who were lucky were sent to Finland. Who was unlucky - for the Urals in the company of the Ingermanlanders, who were exiled in the 30s. And the "liberated" territories were settled by peasants from the Kostroma and Vologda regions. So there was no second or third class, let alone assimilation. And those who tried to become one, returning to their homeland, were sent to the zone for violating the "special settler" regime

[nikon7717]

Wonderful you write, immediately with the provocation of "the captured Finnish territories (Old Finland)". You immediately recognize the outcome of the war in favor of the Finns, they took it away from the poor! And the fact that they themselves had violated a bunch of laws before leaving Russia, came out with an increase in territory. About expulsion to the USSR. My grandfathers more than once told stories about the betrayal by people of nationalities with whom they fought during the Second World War. This was a necessary measure. In your example, the Finns betrayed the state in which they lived en masse, it was defended. There is no point in blaming the mirror today if the face is crooked.

[Deck]

The Finns returned to their old borders in two months, having defeated the units of the 43rd, 115th and 123rd infantry divisions of the 23rd Army of the Red Army at the village of Porlampi, the Gulf of Finland remained Finnish (except for the eastern part to the Shepelev-Stirsudden line ), which showed further actions of the CBF
"On August 28, 1941, Wilhelm Keitel sent Mannerheim a proposal to take Leningrad by storm together with the Wehrmacht. At the same time, the Finns were asked to continue their offensive south of the Svir River in order to unite with the Germans advancing on Tikhvin. Mannerheim replied that the crossing of the Svir did not correspond to the interests of Finland. that, after hearing a reminder that he made the refusal to storm the city a condition of his stay as commander-in-chief, the President of Finland Ryti, who arrived at the headquarters, responded to the German proposals on August 28 with a categorical refusal to storm the city, which was repeated on August 31.
Finnish soldiers cross the border with the USSR, summer 1941.
On August 31, Finns entered the old Soviet-Finnish border near Leningrad, thereby closing the half-ring of the city’s blockade from the north. The Soviet-Finnish border, which existed since 1918, was crossed by Finnish troops in places to a depth of 20 km, the Finns were stopped at the turn of the Karelian fortified area. Mannerheim ordered the troops on the Karelian Isthmus to go on the defensive.
On September 4, 1941, General Jodl, Chief of the General Staff of the German Armed Forces, was sent to Mannerheim's headquarters in Mikkeli. But even then he received a refusal from the participation of the Finns in the attack on Leningrad. Instead, Mannerheim launched a successful offensive north of Lake Ladoga. "

[apro]

And they turned out in 1944 a little further than in 1940. and paid for their Wishlist ...

[Insurgent]

Quote: Deck

On September 4, 1941, General Jodl, the chief of the main staff of the German armed forces, was sent to Mannerheim’s headquarters in Mikkeli. But even then he received a refusal from the participation of the Finns in the attack on Leningrad. Instead, Mannerheim launched a successful offensive north of Lake Ladoga.

Further, based on the logic and direction of your comment, von Mannerheim should be called "the savior of Leningrad", and St. Petersburgers - Leningraders, repent to him for the torn down memorial plaque?

What is this if not an attempt to rewrite history?

[Deck]

Why did the Swede Carl Gustav Emil Mannerheim become a "von"? There is no need to rewrite history here: interesting historical details are born right in your brain. Can you read something, learn at last? Not?

[Insurgent]

Quote: Deck

Why did the Swede Carl Gustav Emil Mannerheim become a "von"?

Do not carry nonsense without having an idea what you are writing about:

Mannerheim (German: von Mannerheim) - baronial and count earl.

The most famous representative of the clan is the General of the Russian Imperial Army, Marshal of Finland, President of Finland Karl Gustav Emil Mannerheim (1867-1951).

Until the early 2000s, it was believed that Mannerheim moved to Sweden from Holland. But A Finnish-Dutch group of researchers published a message in early 2007 that they had found a church book in the Hamburg archives according to which the oldest known ancestor of Gustav Mannerheim, Hinrich Marhein, was baptized at St. Jacob's Church in Hamburg on December 28 1618 year. From the record of his birth, it follows that his father was a certain Henning Marhein, who was granted citizenship of the city of Hamburg in 1607.

There is a document from which it follows that Hinrich Margain, who, after moving to Sweden, began to be called Henry, founded an ironworks here. His son in 1693 was elevated to the Swedish nobility (Swedish.) Russian. (under the name Mannerheim).

With a diploma from the Swedish king Adolf-Friedrich dated 18 (new style on February 29), 1768, Major General and commander of the Dalekarli Regiment Gustav-Heinrich Mannerheim and retired Colonel Johann-Augustine Mannerheim were elevated, with descending descendants, to the Baron kingdom of Sweden.

[fuxila]

Interesting information, about the alleged Dutch origin Mannerheim also read, and this is the first time about this study. I just didn't understand why, after all, a "von", if you yourself write that a man of unknown origin, Hinrich Margein, became in 1607 just an ordinary Hamburg burgher? Then this burgher (that is, a city dweller) left for Sweden and only his son in 1693 received the Swedish one (and his descendants after the annexation of Finland and the Russian nobility). As far as I know, the Swedish (and Russian) nobles do not have the prefix "von", especially since what follows in the text is "... the commander of the Dalecarlian regiment Gustav-Heinrich Mannerheim and retired Colonel Johann-Augustin Mannerheim ...", without any " background ". If Margein had come to Sweden as a German nobleman, then without any doubt he would have remained a "background", otherwise just Mannerheim ...

[Undecim]

Do not carry nonsense without having an idea what you are writing about:
Very correct remark. Just why you yourself do not follow him and carry this same nonsense, moreover with aplomb, although you have no idea about the issue.
In Germany, Mannerheim did not receive the titles.
Mannerheim received the nobility in Sweden in 1693. Although the tradition of using the particle “background” instead of the old Swedish form af was borrowed in Sweden and Finland from Germany in the XNUMXth century, not all noble families used it.
Therefore, the Mannerheim barons, who are included in the List of noble families of the Grand Duchy of Finland under No. 18, have never been "von", as can be seen by looking at this very list.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Deck

On September 4, 1941, General Jodl, the chief of the main staff of the German armed forces, was sent to Mannerheim’s headquarters in Mikkeli. But even then he received a refusal from the participation of the Finns in the attack on Leningrad. Instead, Mannerheim launched a successful offensive north of Lake Ladoga.

He wouldn’t be refused. A direct attack on Leningrad through KaUR was not provided for by any pre-war joint German-Finnish plans. According to these plans, the main blow was struck north of Ladoga, where the Finns, in cooperation with the Germans, were to close the "big ring", cutting off Leningrad from the rest of the country. Moreover, it was the Germans who insisted in June 1941:

so that Field Marshal Mannerheim directs the main blow of his ground forces not through the Karelian Isthmus to Leningrad, but east of Lake Ladoga in the direction of Lodeynoye Field in Svir

On August 2, the Germans confirm this plan and ask that the main forces of the Finnish army be concentrated in the Lodeinopolsky direction.
And suddenly, Keitel and Jodl suddenly break all plans and demand that Mannerheim arrange a meat grinder for the Finnish army, without stopping the offensive for Ladoga. Naturally, Mannerheim refused:

I told [Finnish President R. Ryti] that we should clarify the position of the Germans. If they take possession of Leningrad from the south, then it makes no sense to break through to the city through the fortified area at the old border, when Leningrad will in any case be in the "cauldron"

As a result, Keitel received the answer that the Finns do not have artillery and aviation to break through the KaUR, and the mobile reserve has already been exhausted - the Finns mobilized 16% of the population. And Finland can strike at the Karelian Isthmus only in the event of a successful assault on Leningrad from the German side. However, the Finns from September 1 several days fought against KaUR in the Sestroretsk and Beloostrovsky directions, found out that the BROs are mothballed, equipped and have infantry filling - and on September 9 threw this bad job.
Moreover, the Germans, instead of breaking through to meet the Finns between Leningrad and Ladoga (this was exactly what was prescribed by GA "Sever" by the next Directive), struck in the direction of Leningrad itself - and got bogged down in battles in the suburbs. Von Leeb rudely violated the order from above - and lost.
But to the north of Ladoga, the Finns not only reached Svir, but even forced it. Next was the German zone of responsibility - but the Germans were late in this direction (from the south). And Mannerheim did not want to put the Finns instead of the Germans.

[Moskovit]

How dare you encroach on the thesis of good Mannerheim.
The famous historian Nikolai Ivanovich Baryshnikov pointed out three reasons:
1) The increased resistance of the Red Army and the serious losses of the Finns, who had not yet departed from that war
2) Reluctance of the Finnish rank and file to fight. Even desertion from the front.
3) The pressure of the Anglo-Americans on Finland.
But even so, Ryti in September dreams of destroying Leningrad. Mannerheim begs the 163rd division from the Germans. Now, if they threw her to his aid ...

[bubalik]

Finland. From the history of wartime 1939-1944 | Baryshnikov Nikolay Ivanovich

[Moskovit]

I took from his conversation with the full-fledged Johan Beckmann.
Vobschem frightened Finnish krovushku shed.

[Kot_Kuzya]

Shameful war, cap-hatred came sideways. According to the results of this war, Hitler finally became convinced that the USSR was militarily extremely weak and decided to attack the USSR, which he did a year later.

[Monster_Fat]

Yeah, they wanted to "reason" the Finnish government, of course. It was for "reasoning" that Stalin created Kuusinen's "people's government", hoping to plant him in "liberated" Finland. But after the USSR was expelled from the League of Nations, and England, France, Sweden began to prepare for the landing of their troops in Finland, simultaneously with the preparation of a strike towards Baku, only then the Kremlin started talking seriously about peace talks. And yes, there is such a point of view that Hitler, and before that did not highly appreciate the quality of the armed forces of the USSR, after this war began to speak generally contemptuously about the USSR and its army, aviation and navy, and it was after this ill-fated war that he decided to quickly solve the problem with the "Red Colossus on Clay Feet" until he drew conclusions from this war and re-armed himself.

[Octopus]

Quote: Monster_Fat

that Hitler had not yet highly praised the quality of the armed forces of the USSR

This is not some kind of trouble specifically Hitler. Chamberlain also considered the Soviet military potential to be approximately equal to Polish.

Actually, this is the mistake of Barbarossa. It was believed, not only by the Germans, that the eastern campaign would be much easier french.

[denplot]

I consider Stalin’s foreign policy before the Great Patriotic War to be absolutely correct; he has done as much as possible for the country's security. Whatever the liberals whined now, everything was done right

[Olgovich]

Russia returned part of Karelia and Vyborg, lost as a result of the collapse of the Russian Empire

An alternative story has gone ....

only AFTER THE THIEF Finns declared independence and it was the Bolsheviks who themselves recognized the independence of Finland, ...... without even bothering to specify borders.

.

London and Paris decided to attack on the USSR (How the West was preparing a "crusade" against the USSR)

But comrade Stalin directly told and quite different:

Did the government and party do the right thing declared war on Finland? ..

There in the West the three biggest powers grabbed each other's throats - when to decide the question of Leningrad, if not in such conditions, when the hands are busy and we find a favorable environment so that their at that moment hit?

It would be great stupidity, political myopia to miss the moment and not try as soon as possible, while there is a war in the West, to pose and resolve the issue

And here is how Finland was preparing to "attack" the USSR (as claimed by the author):

Stalin: The Finnish army is not capable of great offensive action. The main drawback in this army is she’s not capable of great offensive actions, on the defensive, she is passive and very stingy with a counterattack, and she organizes a counterattack extremely clumsy and she always left with losses after a counterattack.

This is the main drawback of the Finnish army. It was created and brought up not for the offensive, but for defense, and the defense is not active, but passive.

Defense with deep fetish faith, faith in an invulnerable land. I can’t call such an army modern.

The killer source, told quite another, as we see, another ....

Russia returned part of Karelia and Vyborg,

FALSE: Karelia and Vyborg, which entered the educated so-called Karelian-Finnish SSR, which is to Russia, according to owls. Constitution, had nothing to do.

And only in 1956 was it destroyed ugly anti-Russian state educationcreated on Russian lands in 1940 Mr. Karelia returned to the fold of Russia.

It’s even scary to imagine if it lived to see the collapse of the USSR: today Murmask would be in the position of Kaliningrad cut off from Russia, without land communications and railways ....

[HOLMS_2000]

In your description, Kaliningrad is right behind the barbed wire.
And they wrote about the Grand Duchy of Finland with the Vyborg province repeatedly.
We must say thanks to our kings for giving this territory to the All-Russian Federation.

[Vladimir_2U]

Something there deceitful Olga writes about a lie, sort of like a bee against honey, or what?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Olgovich

FALSE: Karelia and Vyborg, which entered the educated so-called Karelian-Finnish SSR, which to Russia, according to Sov. Constitution, had nothing to do.

And by whom was Karelia and Vyborg torn from Russia?
I'll tell you:

It was this separatist who joined the Russian province to the virtually independent VKF.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexey RA

It was this separatist who joined the Russian province to the virtually independent VKF.

Surprisingly, from WHOM did Finland announce .... INDEPENDENCE in December 1917?

After all, she already .... "WAS" with her (with Russian troops in the Finnish Senate, yeah) The Turaks, apparently, were ...

PS Do you approve of the creation of the state "KFSSR"?

[apro]

Olgovich and how is it ... the Russian ampirator abandoned Finland? And Russia, too ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: apro

Olgovich and how is it ... the Russian ampirator abandoned Finland?

What nonsense?

Quote: apro

and from Russia too

[apro]

If renunciation of autocratic power. The right to own territory is rubbish. Then this rubbish is the truth.

[Olgovich]

Quote: apro

If renunciation of autocratic power. Right of ownership of the territory

WHO renounced Finland, besides the Bolsheviks, I ask again?

[apro]

Quote: Olgovich

WHO disowned Finland

The ampirator is autocrat.

[Olgovich]

Quote: apro

The ampirator is autocrat.

Bye!

[denplot]

In 1811, Emperor Alexander 1 annexed Vyborg Province to the Grand Duchy of Finland

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

the army is not capable of great offensive action.

Almost word for word - the Finns' opinion of the Red Army until November 1939

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sugar Honeyovich

Quote: Olgovich

the army is not capable of great offensive action.

Almost word for word - the Finns' opinion of the Red Army until November 1939

That is, Stalin, in your opinion ... was wrong ?!

This is already, you know, generally beyond ....

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Yes, of course I was mistaken. Finns too. In that war, so many were mistaken. Maybe this is beyond, but a fact. That’s selvah.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Oh sure, wrong.

Stalin was "wrong" about the Finnish army:

She was not created and brought up for the offensive, but for defense, and the defense is not active, and passive.

Apparently, it was necessary to consider almost a hundred conscientious tanks for one Finnish-this is the danger of attacking ... the USSR
for defense, he convened the "government of Kuusinen

But Samsonov turned out to be right ...

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Finns too.

in what?
what was supposed to happen ...

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

in what?

The fact that the Bolsheviks in Russia are very unpopular, so they will not dare to start any serious war with anyone. The fact that the Red Army is very weak - not even tanks.

Quote: Olgovich

what was supposed to happen happened ..

Exactly the opposite.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

The fact that the Bolsheviks in Russia are very unpopular, so they will not dare to start any serious war with anyone. The fact that the Red Army is very weak - not even tanks.

Are you Finn 1939?
No?
So reduce categorization. and bring the doc.

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Quote: Olgovich
what was supposed to happen happened ..

Exactly the opposite.

What, the USSR -.... did not attack?

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

Are you Finn 1939?

No. Just like you, you are not a peasant in Tsarist Russia.

Quote: Olgovich

So reduce categorization

Impossible. Because the very minimum. Necessary.

Quote: Olgovich

bring the doc.

This is please:
"On November 27, 3 days before the start of hostilities, the operational department of the General Staff of the Finnish Army ... said that" the capture of Finland will be even for a power like the USSR, an extremely difficult task, and with the help of energetic work to strengthen the defense ... you can solve this problem unbearable "

A kind of final assessment of the state of the Red Army was made on October 28, 1939, by the Statistical Bureau of the General Staff of the Army of Finland, which prepared "Notes on the fighting condition of the Red Army." "The Red Army is currently not and in the near future will not become an effective means of warfare." Therefore, "taking into account the internal political situation in the USSR, the Soviet government will not start a war, even if it is against the numerically weakest army." Further train of thought led the authors of the document to a logical conclusion: "The most insignificant misfire, failure can shock the existing political system in the USSR, and the country's leadership is aware of this."

The expectation that Finland will be able to repeat the feat of little David, who plunged the giant Goliath, the USSR, was reflected in the operational plans of the Finnish army, which operated on a vast front from the northern Ladoga region to the Barents Sea. It was supposed to go on the offensive immediately after the attack of the USSR and occupy a number of territories, primarily in Soviet Karelia. In addition to military expediency, apparently, the possibility of the local population against the Bolshevik regime was taken into account. The command of the Finnish army finally abandoned these plans only a week after the start of the "winter war", since the grouping of the Red Army in this direction turned out to be unexpectedly powerful "(Yu. Kilin).

"... we interrogated the prisoners. Some of them were still shaking in a nervous chill. As if only now they realized all the madness of the attack with small arms against armor. When asked what caused this, the captured non-commissioned officer began to tell such things that I asked the translator ... And he explained that the battalion commander had assured the soldiers the day before yesterday: the Russians, they say, do not have real tanks, but only old, foreign-made tractors. They are covered with plywood painted under armor, you can pierce it with a bayonet strike, not to mention a bullet and a grenade. " (V.S.Arkhipov)

Quote: Olgovich

What, the USSR -.... did not attack?

See above.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

No. Just like you, you are not a peasant in Tsarist Russia.

So you are not a Martian. What are we talking about ... peasants?

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Impossible. Because the very minimum. Necessary.

Yeah, clear:

Categoricality is a sign of limitation. - Confucius

Quote: Sahar Medovich

A kind of final assessment of the state of the Red Army was made on October 28, 1939, by the Statistical Bureau of the General Staff of the Army of Finland, which prepared "Notes on the fighting condition of the Red Army." "The Red Army is not currently and in the near future will not become an effective means of warfare"

And so it happened: efficiency "turned out to be zero: losses speak eloquently about this. Forgotten?

So WHERE is the General Staff about the lack of ... tanks? Lying again?

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Quote: Olgovich
What, the USSR -.... did not attack?

See above.

See above-Stalin

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

And so it happened: efficiency "turned out to be zero: losses speak eloquently about this. Forgotten?

Did everything happen as the Finns expected? Especially the result of the war? Tell them that! And we will laugh.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Did everything happen as the Finns expected?

Yes: the USSR attacked, that’s what they expected and prepared for it, having increased the army TEN TIMES in just six months

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Especially the result of the war? Tell them that! And we will laugh.

Why is the result bad?

so-called Kuusinen's "government", with which the USSR concluded an "agreement" of eternal friendship and assistance, remained in deep e, like its Finnish "army", independence was preserved, losses cannot be compared with the winner, a worthy result.

But the USSR received the worst enemy and the blockade of Leningrad from the Finnish side.
"Huge" payoff ", yes!

PS And Vyborg did not have to be surrendered in 1917, as your poor-headed oak lap-walkers did not think of anything (because all their bald lives did not work anywhere.)

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

Why is the result bad?

Instead of territorial acquisitions in the White Sea - the loss of a strategically important territory. The result is not bad, yeah. Although, of course, it could be worse.

Quote: Olgovich

USSR got the worst enemy

By inheritance from the Russian Empire.

Quote: Olgovich

blockade of Leningrad from the Finnish side.
"Huge" payoff ", yes!

Compared to the occupation of Leningrad from the Finnish side, any other side - a huge gain (and not "gain"), absolutely true.

Quote: Olgovich

Vyborg did not have to be surrendered in 1917,

Typo - in 1811

Quote: Olgovich

poor-headed oak lobotryas who do not understand anything (for all their bald lives have never worked anywhere.)

Here it is - to the very point! More precisely: a lobster.
It was not in vain that a contemporary said about him: "the ruler is weak and crafty, bald-headed dandy, an enemy of labor."

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Instead of territorial acquisitions in the White Sea - the loss of a strategically important territory. The result is not bad, yeah. Although, of course, it could be worse.

We have retained INDEPENDENCE, and your so-called. Kuusinen's "government" became universal a laughing stock, the club CLOWNS, like his so-called. Finnish "army" and its "agreement" with the whole USSR.

The fortress ....

Quote: Sahar Medovich

By inheritance from the Russian Empire.

The alternative has gone!
Tell us about the "battles" and "wars" between Finland and Russia

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Compared with the occupation of Leningrad on the Finnish - any other side - a huge gain (not a "win"), absolutely true.

Was there such a thing in your reality?

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Typo - in 1811

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Here it is - to the very point! More precisely: a shaker

I agree: the biggest was exactly one who signed the so-called. "decree. The rest of the mongrel, so, grunted

You can’t say better than the great Russian writer V. Astafiev: -

“A geek from geeks, hatched from a family of alien haters and regicide, who came to the second crucifixion of God and infanticide, being punished by the Lord for grave sins with infertility, avenging the whole world for this, brought sterility to the most lively Russian land, repaid humility in the minds of the most good-natured people, "leaving behind the clouds of chatty quitters who do not understand what labor is, what value each human life is worth, what a priceless creation of a bread field."

Quote: Sahar Medovich

It was not in vain that a contemporary said about him: "the ruler is weak and crafty, bald dandy, an enemy of labor."

Not for nothing, yes, Pushkin said about the Emperor:

You, our brave king, praise, thanks!
When the enemy shelves covered the distance,
Riding in armor, laying down a feathered helmet,
Kneeling before the high altar,
You took a swearing sword and took an oath to the saint
From the yoke to protect his native country.

Under this Emperor Russia has grown on million km2when gruntingdecreased on 5 million km2 and tens of millions of people.

Russia has never suffered such losses.

Got it, no?

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

Saved INDEPENDENCE

Well, yes, they wanted to go down the wool, and returned cropped. Happiness, that at least the head survived.

Quote: Olgovich

your so-called Kuusinen's "government" became a common laughing stock,

As well as your interim government of the "North Karelian state" before? Quits!

Quote: Olgovich

about "battles" and "wars" between Finland and Russia

If! Without any war, the tsar gave them Russian lands! Shame ...

Quote: Olgovich

Better than the great Russian writer V. Astafiev, you will not say

That's right! In terms of insanity, in statements made on the basis of bitterness all over the world, few can compete with Astafyev.
And about Lenin, a peasant, born in 1904, said better than anyone else: "God forgot about Russia for a long time, and then he remembered, caught himself and sent Lenin. And Lenin created such a happy life for us." In vain, perhaps, the peasants of Lenin, portraits in red corners next to the icons were kept ... In the Non-Black Earth Region, including

Quote: Olgovich

Not for nothing, yes, Pushkin said about the Emperor:
You, our brave king, praise, thanks!

Who at 16 was not naive!
And having matured:
"We knew him very meek,
When not our cooks
Double-headed eagle pinched
At Bonaparte's tent "

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Well, yes, they wanted to go down the wool, and returned cropped. Happiness, that at least the head survived.

Yeah, they wanted the Government of socialist Finland and friendship of Finland, but they got a party of CLOWNS (for fun all over the world) and hostile Finland

Quote: Sahar Medovich

That's right! In terms of insanity, in statements made on the basis of bitterness all over the world, few can compete with Astafyev.

Foolish talk about ... senility of others!

Something, by the way, you can dispute from the above great russian writer FACTS?

Quote: Sahar Medovich

about Lenin the best of all said a peasant woman born in 1904: "God forgot about Russia for a long time, and then he remembered, caught himself and sent Lenin. And Lenin created such a happy life for us." In vain, perhaps, the peasants of Lenin, portraits in red corners next to the icons were kept ... In the Non-Black Earth Region, including

1. Again OBS .... Gerantophile, huh?

2. To you would apply THES methods of "persuasion" that yours were applied, you and Nikolaev would hang everyone on the wall and "God of the Tsar" diligently took out and danced the hopak ...

Quote: Sahar Medovich

And having matured:

And growing up, offended by the link, he is also a man ...

But recognizes:

Forgive him wrong persecution:
He took Paris, he founded a lyceum.

And not only Paris: with it, Russia grew on million km2, while gruffing poor-heads-decreased by 5 million km2 and tens of millions of people.

Caught, no?

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

Yeah, they wanted the Government of socialist Finland and friendship of Finland, but they got a party of CLOWNS (for fun all over the world) and hostile Finland

Yeah, they wanted Great Finland for three seas, but they got ... a snout in the blood.

Quote: Olgovich

Insane talk about ... insanity of others

I see it.

Quote: Olgovich

Something, by the way, can you argue from the FACTS given by the great Russian writer?

Does he have facts? Do crocodiles fly?

Quote: Olgovich

Gerantophile yes

A patient with hallucinations, a sclerosis, a senile, a gerontophile ... well, I got an interlocutor! Keep expanding further!

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Yeah, they wanted Great Finland for three seas, but they got ... a snout in the blood.

They wanted to defend themselves and defended themselves.

And the clowns stayed with their own ... clowns from their own so-called. "government" and rebuild the acquired ENEMY. From which we soon received ...

Quote: Sahar Medovich

It is a I see.

Still, do not see yourself.

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Does he have facts?

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Keep going open up further!

BreakawayAT- lover ... old women (well, and you have tastes ...)

Shame ....

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

They wanted to defend themselves and defended themselves

They wanted to attack, but had to defend themselves with losses.

Quote: Olgovich

again acquired by the ENEMY. From which they soon received

Right In 1940 and 1944. With new losses.

Quote: Olgovich

Still-not to see yourself

Do you have one? Is this called a split personality?

Quote: Olgovich

Rakryvat-lover ... old women (well, you have tastes ...)

Do you, I see, prefer the elderly? I understand that the taste and color ... but do not get too close to me, PZHLST.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

They wanted to attack

I am turning you to Stalin!

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Right In 1940 and 1944. With new losses.

How many times did ours die more during the Winter War?
Or what to regret, women still give birth?

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Do you have one?

About insanity, you said. So it turned out funny, insanity about ... insanity ....
Or again ... sclerosis?

"You bore me" (C)

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Do you, I see, prefer the elderly?

It is YOU who drag YOUR OWN me all the time, seduce them, I with all my strength fight them off (see above).

Once again I urge you to relieve me of your, um, preferences.
Fi ...

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

I am turning you to Stalin!

And I you - to the Finnish General Staff.

Quote: Olgovich

How many times did ours die more during the Winter War?

No one seems to know exactly. Most likely at 1,3.

Quote: Olgovich

About insanity, you said.

In specific statements by Astafiev. And you said that you have problems with this.

Quote: Olgovich

"You tire me out"

Not me! And your second (or maybe there are many of them?) "I".

Quote: Olgovich

This is YOU bringing me YOUR old women all the time

And you tell me yours! In preferences we are on an equal footing ... if you were still not involved with the old people ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

And I you - to the Finnish General Staff.

I'm tired of it. And: for the tenth time you are carrying the same nonsense ....

Train out on your moth-spent loves

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

for the tenth time you carry the same nonsense

You always have nonsense (ALWAYS!). You have love for her ... And you do not love the truth. And she does not love you.

[BAI]

It is possible that it was the transfer of the border from Leningrad that saved the city from its capture by the Nazis and Finns during the Great Patriotic War.

Not "possibly", but precisely because of this, Leningrad survived.

[Octopus]

Quote: BAI

Not "possibly", but precisely because of this, Leningrad survived.

And why suddenly the RI Finns, who refused to take Leningrad, climb into the AI ​​there? This is not to mention why RI Bulgaria and Norway can be neutral in the war with the USSR, but AI Finland cannot?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Octopus

And why suddenly the RI Finns, who refused to take Leningrad, climb into the AI ​​there?

They did not refuse. They agreed on the condition that a successful German assault began. But von Leeb ruined everything.

Quote: Octopus

This is not to mention why RI Bulgaria and Norway can be neutral in the war with the USSR, but AI Finland cannot?

But because the Finns will have no choice. Old owners after July 1940 can no longer be the guarantor of the independence of Finland. And the Finns remained between the Reich and the USSR. The USSR as a guarantor of Finnish independence, you understand, is not worth considering.
The Germans remain. And what can the Germans want from a country bordering the second industrial center of the USSR, in which, for example, half of the tank plants are concentrated?
So an alliance with the Germans is inevitable.
And about neutrality ... here it’s better not to recall occupied Norway or recall Bulgaria, but neutral Hungary.

[Octopus]

Quote: Alexey RA

They did not refuse. They agreed on the condition that a successful German assault began. But von Leeb ruined everything.

And what is the difference between an alternative from RI?

Quote: Alexey RA

But because the Finns will have no choice.

Historical determinism is our everything.

Quote: Alexey RA

Old owners after July 1940 can no longer be the guarantor of the independence of Finland.

Oh, this Russian cynological approach to international politics.

Quote: Alexey RA

And what might the Germans want from a country bordering the second industrial center of the USSR,

And what did the Germans want in reality? And what did you get?

Quote: Alexey RA

The USSR as a guarantor of Finnish independence, you understand, is not worth considering.

In fact, the guarantors have not gone away. The USSR in July of the 41st even reconciled with Poland, EMNIP.

Quote: Alexey RA

and neutral Hungary.

Speaking of neutral Hungary. And what happened in Kosice on June 26? Which of the WWII participants still secret their archives?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Octopus

Historical determinism is our everything.

So there is no other globe. Whatever Finland does, it is still between the Reich and the USSR.

Quote: Octopus

In fact, the guarantors have not gone away. The USSR in July of the 41st even reconciled with Poland, EMNIP.

With the "government-in-exile" of a German-occupied country in Britain? I'm afraid Finland has a slightly different situation. Mannerheim, by virtue of a certain ... distance between him and the Allies, tried to play an independent policy.

[Octopus]

Quote: Alexey RA

It appears between the Reich and the USSR.

Correction Between the Reich and the USSR was the Baltic. Finland was between the Reich and neutral Sweden. For some reason I remember those places.

Quote: Alexey RA

tried to play independent politics

As far as I remember, Mannerheim quite managed to switch back to the side of England even in real history. So stories about determinism require a little more specificity. Finland in the "zone of influence" of the USSR in 39, you enter into determinism?

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Octopus

Bulgaria and Norway may be neutral in the war with the USSR,

Norway was not neutral in the war with the USSR.
And Finland could, but did not want to. I wanted to become Great. From the Baltic to the White and the Barents.

[Octopus]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

Norway was not neutral in the war with the USSR.

Norway was not at war with the USSR. Even the USSR, when it transferred hostilities to the territory of Norway, fought there with Germany, he did not declare war on Norway.

Quote: Sahar Medovich

From the Baltic to the White and the Barents.

They did not go to Bely and Barents, as I recall. Moreover, they were stopped by exactly the same people as the first time.

Entente.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Octopus

They did not go to Bely and Barents, as I recall.

We just went to White. Just because of the decision taken before June 22 to differentiate powers in Finland and subordinate the northern Finnish forces to the Germans (and the southern German to the Finns), the Northern Finnish units are usually united with the German ones - according to a common command body.
The Germans attacked Kandalaksha together with the Finns, and only the Finns attacked Kestengu and Ukhta.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

But Norway declared war on the USSR. But the Finns did not go, because did not have the opportunity. But they had a desire!

[Octopus]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

But Norway declared war on the USSR

What interesting news. Do not remember where else, besides the Russian wiki, can I find out about this?

[Sugar Honeyovich]

For example, here: https://norwaylife.ru/norvegiya-vo-vtoroj-mirovoj-vojne/. Or here: https://topwar.ru/11239-uchastie-norvegii-v-voyne-s-sssr-mif-o-sovmestnoy-borbe.html

[Octopus]

Quote: Sahar Medovich

For example here

Are you talking about the Quisling war, to which he mobilized 300 people? I didn’t know about it, thanks.

Well, if the Finns could also mobilize 300 people, and at least the same 6 thousand Norwegian SSs, I would not mind.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

I'm talking about the war that Quisling has OFFICIALLY declared by the USSR. Actually, the Norwegians fought against us much more than 300.

[Operator]

Quote: Deck

Mannerheim launched a successful offensive north of Lake Ladoga

Proceed, therefore, to the occupation of Soviet territory.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Operator

Proceed, therefore, to the occupation of Soviet territory.

To the liberation of the original Finnish lands - from the Gulf of Bothnia to the Urals.
It’s a pity they didn’t reach Oymyakon ...

[Octopus]

Quote: Alexey RA

It’s a pity they didn’t reach Oymyakon ...

Hm. You seem to be from St. Petersburg? Which Schengen embassy did you receive?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Octopus

Hm. You seem to be from St. Petersburg? Which Schengen embassy did you receive?

Missed - I do not have a visa.
And yes - do not confuse the current Finns with those of the time. This is something like the current Japanese and pre-war.
As a Leningrader, I have no reason to love the "poor, unfortunate" Finns of 1941.

[Octopus]

Quote: Alexey RA

I do not have a visa

Nifigase. Happens. Well, that is, theoretically exist, but in real life have never seen.

Quote: Alexey RA

This is something like the current Japanese and pre-war.

The Germans have been forgotten. Yes, about the same people.

Quote: Alexey RA

As a Leningrader, I have no reason to love the "poor, unfortunate" Finns of 1941.

You, as a Leningrader, have no reason to love a lot of people. Actually, this is the discussion about whether Leningrad owes 41 years to vicious Great Finns, royal rabid dogs, or nevertheless the native Soviet power, which did so much for Leningrad and Leningrad residents all the other years, until the 41st and after.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Octopus

Actually, this is the discussion about whether Leningrad owes 41 years to vicious Great Finns, royal rabid dogs, or nevertheless the native Soviet power, which did so much for Leningrad and Leningrad residents all the other years, until the 41st and after.

Really in the blockade of Leningrad held the Red Army and the native Soviet power? And Directive Nr. Ia 1601/41 vom 22. September 1941 Did Die Zukunft der Stadt Petersburg make up in the General Staff of the RKKF from quotes from Stalin?

[Octopus]

Quote: Alexey RA

Nr. Ia 1601/41 vom 22. September 1941 "Die Zukunft der Stadt Petersburg"

I speak Finnish poorly. Who, to whom and when gave this Directive?

[Octopus]

Quote: Alexey RA

And Directive

By the way, this is rather insulting in relation to the Great Victory, the Feat of Leningradites, this whole story. Nothing but laziness and trash of Soviet / Russian propaganda, I do not see here. OKV and Leeb published quite cannibalistic the real papers on the fate of Leningrad, but no, you need to constantly remember this nonsense. It’s very convenient for Fricke (or who?) To explain everything, you can directly take it and print it in the Pravda newspaper. Another heading to his scribble, they say Hitler Directive.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Octopus

It’s very convenient for Fricke (or who?) To explain everything, you can directly take it and print it in the Pravda newspaper.

He wrote a document to Fricke. And Raeder, otmazyvaya Kriegsmarine, officially stated that the fleet to the wording used in the document is irrelevant - Fricke only repeated the words of Hitler.

Unfortunately, he included in this document the expressions used by Hitler, which are in no way related to the case, since we were worried because nothing was being done with the shelling. Thus, he does not assume responsibility in any case, in the sense that he approved it. He only believed that he should have included Hitler’s wording in the document. The navy had nothing to do with this issue. It would not have been necessary to publish it, and, unfortunately, and very awkwardly, the expression used by Hitler was introduced into this document.

So this document actually sets out the Führer’s response to Kriegsmarine’s request regarding the fate of Leningrad (more precisely, the fleet was interested in the possibility of preserving ports and docks).

... Admiral Fricke was at the headquarters of the Führer - I don’t know for what reason - and there he spoke with the Führer in my absence. The Führer explained to him that they were planning to shell Leningrad, especially from airplanes, and he used these very exaggerated words, which were then written in the document.

[Octopus]

Quote: Alexey RA

So this document actually sets out the Führer’s response to the request

In fact, Raeder spoke quite clearly. The fleet requested the possibility of placing ships in Leningrad beyond the reach of the British, Hitler asked not to compost his brains. Since Hitler had a chatty mood that day, he did not just send Frick to hell, but half an hour sprayed saliva on the fate of the world. Fricke neatly transferred these sprays into his service to the quartermaster, not from a great mind.

Are you really going to refer to a document in which one person, at the time of publication of the deceased, retells the conversation with another person, at the time of publication of the deceased, on a subject that is not within the competence of the author and the recipients of this document? This we will leave aside the question of where this document came from in the materials of Nuremberg.

[Operator]

Quote: Olgovich

Alternative story has gone

The foundations of Finland's sovereignty were laid by Alexander I, who, as part of the Russian Empire, not only created an autonomous Grand Duchy of Finland (the territory of which never had any statehood), and even with a big hangover, joined the princedom Russian territories - the Karelian Isthmus and the northern coast of Ladoga.

[Nikolai]

Yes, he got excited and in general was a baaalsh liberal. And He also told them: statehood, the constitution, all sorts of freedoms, the army, the state bank, university, railways, and much more. And so live the grace of the Sovereign. And they are to Him (Him / Nam): the Russian genocide in 17/18, three wars, the blockade of Leningrad (again genocide), concentration camps in Karelia (and here the genocide). Do you think that since then the Chukhons have become kinder to us or not? Are we to them?

[bandabas]

And learn Russian, come in handy.

[Tamer]

In the photographs, the inhabitants of Leningrad meet the Red Army soldiers returning from the Finnish War, a difficult and bloody war. We can say that, they say, "the party and the government" caught up with the unfortunate Soviet citizens to this meeting. But nonetheless. The unity of the army and the people.
And in the 90s-2000s, those returning from the Caucasus were not welcomed like that, only families and colleagues, and the "party and government" not only washed their hands, but also allowed spitting and censure. And now the topic with Afgan is still raised sometimes, but in the Chechen campaigns somehow quietly, imperceptibly.

[Nikolai]

As a result of the short and victorious war, the strategic task of protecting Leningrad from the north was solved. But the contract of 12.03.1940/XNUMX/XNUMX by the Finns was violated. As a result, Finland lost even more, but did the Finns atone for the crimes before our People and the State ?!

[Sergey49]

Attacking Finland was a crime. The blockade of Leningrad - retribution for treachery.

[Nikolai]

You tell this to the blockade - they will tear you.

[Sergey49]

You won’t believe it, but killing an opponent does not refute his point of view - but time puts everything in its place. Giordano Bruno erected a monument after 289 years, and before that self-confident fools burned. Which, like you, did not believe in science or facts, but in other people's tales.

[Nikolai]

Do you want to say that 1 Leningraders died in the blockade from hunger, disease, cold, bombing, shelling; 200 of our citizens tortured by the Finns in the Karelian camps - "is it retribution for treachery"? And who are you after that? And what does Bruno have to do with it ...

[Sergey49]

I want to say that you are repeating the tale about the strategic task of protecting Leningrad from the north, which was created precisely to justify the idiocy of one mustached comrade because of which the soldiers died in the winter war and then the blockades.
Stalin’s idea was simple - to return the territories of the Russian Empire that were torn away from the country after the revolution (by the way, he achieved success by the end of WWII, and I would be glad if it weren’t for the huge price in human lives because of my own stupidity and narcissism). And the idea of ​​the Finns was to sit out and make money in the war, like other neutrals during the WWII.
Now about the blockades - the fault for them is entirely on Stalin and the Soviet system. Or do you mean that the Finns had to supply food to Leningrad in gratitude for the treacherous attack and bombing of their cities? Probably you are not in the know, but by order of Stalin, all food from the zones of possible occupation by the enemy was exported, including from Leningrad ... for some reason, people were not exported, it was even prohibited at first. By the way, there has never been a continuous blockade ring, this is another Soviet myth to justify Stalin for such a number of victims. Stalin would like to supply food and take people out he would have done it across Lake Ladoga without any problems, but I think he was glad to get rid of the rotten (in his apt expression) Petersburg intelligentsia. The leader did not like Leningrad and the Leningradians, and after the war he finally finished off the Leningrad elite with the "Leningrad Affair".
PS By the way, the irony of 41 years is that the USSR attacked Finland, too treacherously, without declaring war.

[Nikolai]

Cheats:
On June 21-25, the German naval and air forces acted from the territory of Finland against the USSR (this is about Finland's neutrality). On June 22, 1941, in response to the occupation of the demilitarized zone of the Aland Islands by the Finnish troops, the Finnish troops were bombarded by Soviet aviation. On June 25, the forces of the Soviet air fleet launched an airstrike on 18 Finnish airfields involved in military operations and several settlements. On the same day, the Finnish government announced that the country was in a state of war with the USSR (this is about Stalin's treachery). Regarding "I would do it on Lake Ladoga without problems" - have you been to Ladoga? It's scary there even in summer. The road of life was shot from the south and north, bombed. The fleets of Finland, Germany and Italy operated on Ladoga. Until September 8.09.41, 17, nothing was exported from Leningrad except cultural values, equipment of enterprises, institutes, specialists and children. To organize the defense, Zhukov was sent to Leningrad - which zone of occupation? On the victims: the losses of the USSR 17000000 million civilians, the rest - the loss of the army. Think XNUMX killed by the fascist beast. Well, etc. Turn your head on.

[Sergey49]

You are so funny with your Wikipedia quotes, you should at least check the sources from the links there.
On June 21-25, the German naval and air forces acted from the territory of Finland against the USSR - a reference to the book "Finland on the Way to War". I have this book and I confess I did not find such a statement in it.
And here is what it says: "In Moscow on June 23, 1941, Molotov summoned the Finnish chargé d'affaires Hünninen and asked him what Hitler's speech meant. Hünninen could not give an answer. Then Molotov demanded that Finland clearly define its position - Does it stand on the side of Germany or is it neutral? Does Finland want to have among its enemies the Soviet Union with a population of two hundred million, and possibly also Britain? The Soviet Union did not make any demands on Finland, and therefore it has every right to receive a clear answer to its questions Molotov accused Finland of bombing Hanko and flying over Leningrad.Hynninen, for its part, the Soviet Union in bombing Finnish ships and fortifying Alskari.Everyone assured that he did not know about the flights of his aircraft, but Hünninen managed to notice that there was a German plane was shot down. "
"Molotov, during a conversation on June 23, 1941, did not say a word about the German troops in Finland, which indicated an obvious desire for an agreement, about the hope of keeping Finland out of the war. But his proposal was turned to Helsinki only on the day when the Russians bombs have already rained down on the cities of southern Finland (June 25), so it immediately lost its relevance.And if Soviet diplomacy really stood on the positions of peace until now, then we can say that the superpower was unable to effectively coordinate the efforts of its diplomats and actions air force. "

From our side:
The commander of the Air Force of the Northern Front A. A. Novikov writes in his memoirs "And on the night of June 23, the air raid sounded in the city of Lenin. For the first time, anti-aircraft guns began to speak. The 194th Anti-aircraft Artillery Regiment of the Air Defense met with its fire a group of Yu- 88, flying from the Gulf of Finland. "
“Soviet pilots did not allow bombing of Leningrad, Kronstadt, Vyborg and the cities of Karelia in June. But, giving our pilots their due, we understood that the enemy's failure was largely due to the low activity of his aviation, the main strike forces of which had not yet entered into action. Logic dictated that one should not wait for the enemy to throw all aircraft into battle, that one should try to seize the initiative in the air and be the first to launch massive strikes against enemy aircraft. "
"The idea of ​​preemptive strikes on enemy airfields occurred to me on the very first day of the war ... That is why the reports received by us in the district about the bombing of such deep objects as Riga, Kaunas, Minsk, Smolensk, Kiev, Zhitomir and Sevastopol were not I was surprised only by the ease with which the enemy planes penetrated so far into our territory. This fact was alarming. It was necessary to take urgent measures to save Leningrad from the fate of cities that were violently bombed in the very first hours of the war. Such measures could be ours. active actions in the air. I expressed my views to the commanding officers of the air force of the district, they supported me. We quickly estimated our capabilities and decided that if we did not hesitate, we would be able to cope with this task.
The next day, I reported on our plan to General Popov. Markian Mikhailovich agreed with us, but said that this issue must first be agreed with Moscow, since the order to ban raids on Romania and Finland is still valid. On the same day, he called Marshal Tymoshenko. The People's Commissar consulted at even higher authorities, and permission was obtained. 540 aircraft were allocated for attacks on enemy airfields in Finland. The operation involved the Air Force of all combined arms armies of the Northern Front - the 14th, 7th and 23rd, navies and the front air group.
In the afternoon of June 24, the commander of the Northern Front, M.M.Popov, and a member of the Front's Military Council, N.N.Klementyev, approved the plan of the air operation. At the end of the day I was informed that in most units and formations, preparation for the strike was basically completed. "

And here is the Tymoshenko directive:
"" June 24, 1941
1. It has been established from reliable sources that German troops are concentrated in Finland, with the aim of striking at Leningrad and seizing the region of Murmansk and Kandalaksha. To date, up to four infantry divisions have been concentrated in the region of Rovaniemi, Kemiyarvi and an undetermined group in the areas of Kotka and north of the Hanko Peninsula.
German aviation also systematically arrives in Finland, from where it raids on our territory. According to reports, the German command intends to strike an air strike against Leningrad in the near future. This circumstance is crucial.
2. In order to prevent and disrupt the air strike on Leningrad, outlined by the German command in Finland, I order:
Starting from June 25.06.1941, XNUMX, the Military Council of the Northern Front will begin the hostilities of our aviation and rout the enemy’s aircraft day and night and destroy airfields in the area of ​​the southern coast of Finland, bearing in mind the points of Turku, Malmi, Porvoo, Kotka, Holol, Tampere, in areas bordering the Karelian Isthmus, and in the area of ​​Kemijärvi, Rovaniemi. The operation should be carried out jointly with the Air Force of the Northern and Baltic Fleets, about which to give appropriate instructions to the fleet command.
At the same time, fully alert the air defense of Leningrad, providing reliable cover for Leningrad from German air raids by a sufficient number of fighters.
Copies of the given orders shall be delivered to me by 24:00 on June 24.06.1941, XNUMX.
From the Headquarters of the Main Command, People's Commissar of Defense SK Timoshenko. "

Well, since you are a victim of Wikipedia and Soviet propaganda, you probably do not know that this mighty raid of Soviet aviation ended in a natural zilch. Since at the Finnish airfields there was not only a concentration of German aircraft, but also Finnish for the bombing of Soviet territory (Finnish aviation was pulled inland). But due to the lack of Finnish aviation and the stupidity of Finnish ground-based detection services, it was possible to successfully bomb in Finnish cities.
June 25, 1941 without declaring war, without recalling the ambassador from Helsinki, without official notification of the termination of the Moscow Peace Treaty of 1940, a massive bombing strike is launched on Finland. Well, what could the Finns do? Only fight. Maybe the Finnish leadership wanted revenge, but there was a minority in the parliament of supporters of war - and here they got a present.
Well, after such an epic failure - pulling into the war on a flat place in Finland, the generals needed to save their asses before the leader (or maybe the leader himself became uncomfortable to screw up again for several days). This is where the legends about hordes of evil Finns and Germans on their territory ready to invade the peaceful and defenseless USSR began to be born.

In Finland (at Rovaniemi and Luonetjärvi aerodromes), two long-range reconnaissance units (a total of 6 aircraft) were based, and one squadron (a total of 10 operational Messerschmitts) of Luftwaffe fighters was based at the Luostari polar airport. In addition, one squadron of German bombers (no more than 12 aircraft) from the KGr-806 air group based in East Prussia landed several times for refueling at the Finnish airfields of Utti and Malmi (southern Finland).
Active military operations of Soviet and German aviation began from the very first days of the war (that is, June 22–23), but not over Leningrad, but in the Arctic, in the sky over Kirkenes, Petsamo, Murmansk, and the Rybachy Peninsula. Both sides of the outbreak of the war were fighting, disregarding the state borders of Finland. Soviet bombers attacked military facilities on the territory of Norway occupied by the Germans, German planes bombed the Northern Fleet's main base in the Murmansk region, attacked Soviet ships in the Barents Sea, conducted air reconnaissance in the areas of Murmansk and Kandalaksha.
All sorties of the Luftwaffe aircraft in the Arctic were made exclusively from airfields in Norway (Hebukten and Banak). German fighters flew to the Finnish Luostari airfield only on June 24–25 and did not participate in the hostilities (not counting the reflection of Soviet air force attacks on the Luostari airfield) until the Wehrmacht ground troops attacked Murmansk.
Throughout the war, Mannerheim's ban on Finnish aircraft flying over Leningrad was in force.
PS You already begin to put pressure on the pity of the victims, so as not to recognize the incompetence of the country's leadership.

[Nikolai]

Well done, prepared, hooked. He wrote a lot, but the main thing here: the deployment of aggressor troops in Finland and the fighting of Germans and Finns against the Soviet Union. And in general - carefully read your texts. They contradict your conclusions. Judging the competence of management can only be more competent. They were? I do not press pity, but I have a memory. And yes, come on, ask forgiveness on your behalf from the Finnish people for the atrocities of the Soviet Union, shuffle with your foot, let it go, you’ll give a visa for 5 years. I made fun ...

[Sergey49]

Hmm, I look at the book I see a fig. Okay, stop throwing the beads.

[Nikolai]

Amazingly accurate self-criticism. I praise you.

[Deck]

You tell this to the blockade - they will tear you.

Unlike you, I have someone to ask. Grandfather fought in the intelligence of the headquarters of the Leningrad Front, grandmother commanded a workshop for sewing uniforms, my mother is alive and remembers the events of those years. The family lived in the north of the city, near the military factories. There were no bombings and shellings from the Finnish side. Only the Germans. Finnish attitude is quite neutral

[Nikolai]

Learn the materiel. Mannerheim was stopped in front of Sestroretsky on the Rusty Ditch 40 km from Leningrad. Do you get it now?

[Deck]

Rudeness congenital or just plump? Maybe you can’t measure the distance on the maps? Map of the battle formations of the 23rd Army 1942 https://www.aroundspb.ru/uploads/maps/military/1942_23a/217-0001221-1024.jpg

[Nikolai]

I see you do not understand.
On Porokhovykh, where your mother probably lived, it was quiet. Gunpowder is very far from the front line both on one side and on the other.
But the Finns did not have anything to shoot at Leningrad physically and bomb, too.
The shortest distance from the front line (Rusty Ditch - Old Village) is 25 km. The area of ​​the Rusty Ditch was in the zone of shelling from Kronstadt, the area of ​​Beloostrov and to the north - the batteries of the Rzhev landfill. It was not possible to place heavy guns near the front line (and there were none).
So good ?, vulnerable you are mine.

[Deck]

In the village of Kellomyaki (now Komarovo), the Finns in December 1941 built a battery of 254 mm guns from the Obukhov plant system. The firing range of the 235-kg shell was 29,5 km
Of the transporters of three TM-1-180 captured in Hanko (they were called 180 NRaut from the Finns), the 1st railway battery was formed, which later became part of the separate 2nd Coast Artillery Regiment (RTR 2). After repairs in 1941, they were tested by firing and obtained data on the ultimate firing range of 34,5-37,7 km
In 1943, the Finns put into operation three 305-mm railway conveyors TM-1-12, captured at Hanko. Towards the end of the summer of 1943, the 3rd Railway Battery was formed from them. For them, the Finns produced ultra-long 320-kg shells, which at an initial speed of 950 m / s could fly to a distance of 50-52 km.
Finnish railway installations usually operated in the area of ​​the Kuokkala and Ollila railway stations (now Repino and Solnechnoye). From there, 180-mm and 305-mm cannons could fire at most of Leningrad, and 152-mm Kane installations reached Olgino, Staraya village and Pargolovo. I'm not even talking about the airfields "Grazhdanka", "Sosnovka", "Ozerki", "Komendansky", But they shelled the island of Kotlin, the forts "Krasnaya Gorka", "Obruchev" ("Krasnogvardeisky"), "Totleben" ("Pervomaisky" ) and etc.
But there is no reliable evidence of shelling of the city and suburbs

So good ?, vulnerable you are mine.

Something like that. Yes, and not yours, thank God.

[Nikolai]

And you are strong in artillery. I will not complicate, see article
https://topwar.ru/102628-finskaya-artilleriya-prosto-ne-mogla-dobit-do-leningrada.html
Fucking you? - understand.