How the West was preparing a "crusade" against the USSR

Soviet heavy tank T-100 from a special group of heavy tanks on the Karelian Isthmus

Winter war During the Soviet-Finnish war, the West was preparing a “crusade” against the USSR. England and France were preparing to strike at Russia from the north, from Scandinavia, and the south from the Caucasus. The war could take on a completely different character. But these plans were thwarted by the Red Army, which defeated the Finnish troops before the West began its operation.

A vital necessity

By the beginning of World War II, a clearly hostile state was located on the northwestern borders of the Soviet Union, laying claim to our lands and ready to enter into an alliance with any enemy of the USSR. Those who believe that it was Stalin who, by his actions, pushed Finland into the Nazi camp, prefer to remain silent about this. They composed and supported the myth of "peaceful" Finland, which was attacked by the Stalinist "evil empire."

Although, as noted earlier, Finland was in alliance with Estonia and Sweden to block the Gulf of Finland for the Red Baltic Fleet, cooperated with Japan and Germany, waiting for an attack of some great power on the USSR from the East or from the West, to join it and “Liberate” Karelia, the Kola Peninsula, Ingermanland and other lands from the Russians. The Finns were actively preparing for war. In particular, with the help of the Germans, by the beginning of the 1939 of the year, a network of military airfields was built in Finland, capable of receiving in 10 times as many machines as there were in the Finnish Air Force. At the same time, in Helsinki they were ready to fight against us both in alliance with Japan and Germany, as well as with England and France.

Finnish skier officer at the line of fences during the Battle of Coll. The fighting took place in Ladoga Karelia, near Mount Koll and the Kollasjoki River. This type of barriers was recognized by the Finns as relatively unsuccessful, Soviet infantrymen were hiding behind the troughs, and tanks destroyed barriers with armor-piercing shells

Attempts to find a peaceful solution

Toward the start of World War II, the desire of the Soviet leadership to strengthen the defense of its northwestern borders increased. It was necessary to protect the second largest and most important city of the USSR, not to give the fleet potential adversary (Germany or Western democracies) break through to Kronstadt and Leningrad. Push the Finnish border from Leningrad. The border passed only 32 km from the city, which allowed long-range enemy artillery to hit the second Soviet capital. Also, the Finns could inflict artillery attacks on Kronstadt, the only Baltic Fleet base, to our ships. It was necessary to decide to get free access to the sea for the Baltic Fleet. Back in March 1939, Moscow sensed the issue of transferring or leasing islands in the Gulf of Finland. But the Finnish leadership refused categorically.

At first, Moscow managed to restore defense on the southern shore of the Gulf of Finland. 28 September 1939 between the USSR and Estonia, an agreement on mutual assistance was concluded. Soviet troops were introduced into Estonia. Moscow received the right to deploy garrisons and build naval bases in Paldiski and Haapsalu, on the islands of Ezel and Dago.

12 October 1939 in Moscow began the Soviet-Finnish negotiations. The Soviet government invited the Finns to conclude a local agreement on mutual assistance in the joint defense of the Gulf of Finland. Finland also had to provide a place to create a military base on the coast. The Hanko Peninsula was proposed. In addition, Finland had to cede its part of the Rybachy Peninsula, a number of islands in the Gulf of Finland and move the border on the Karelian Isthmus. In compensation, Moscow offered much larger territories in East Karelia. However, the Finns categorically refused the agreement on mutual assistance and mutual territorial concessions.

14 October negotiations were continued. The Soviet position has not changed. Stalin said that it was necessary to push the border from Leningrad at least 70 km. The Soviet side presented its proposals in the form of a memorandum. Helsinki was supposed to lease the Hanko Peninsula for the construction of a naval base and artillery position, capable, together with coastal artillery on the other side of the Gulf of Finland, from blocking the passage to the Gulf of Finland with artillery fire. The Finns were supposed to push the border on the Karelian Isthmus, transfer to the USSR a number of islands in the Gulf of Finland and the western part of the Rybachy peninsula. The total area of ​​territories passing from Finland to the USSR would be 2761 sq. km In compensation, the USSR would transfer to Finland land with a total area of ​​5529 sq. km in Karelia near Rebola and Porosozero. In addition to territorial compensation, Moscow also offered to reimburse the cost of property left by the Finns. According to Finnish estimates, even in the event of the cession of a small territory that Helsinki was ready to give up, it was about 800 million marks. If it came to a larger concession, then the bill would go to billions.

In Helsinki, the line was dominated by Foreign Minister E. Erkko, who believed that Moscow was bluffing, and therefore should not be conceded. In Finland, general mobilization was announced, and the evacuation of civilians from large cities. Censorship was also strengthened, and arrests of leftist leaders began. Marshal Mannerheim was appointed commander in chief. The Finnish negotiators at the talks included Minister of Finance V. Tanner, who was supposed to control a more flexible politician, the head of the Finnish delegation, Yu. Paasikivi.

It is worth noting that in Finland there were reasonable heads. In the spring of 1939, Mannerheim himself proposed to compromise with Moscow. As a military man, he well understood the strategic interests of Russia. In addition, he understood that one Finnish army could not fight the Red Army. It was proposed to move the border from Leningrad and get good compensation. In October, the marshal also proposed pushing the border at 70 km on the Karelian Isthmus. Mannerheim was against renting Hanko, but offered an alternative - the island of Yussare, the location of which allowed the Russians to establish artillery interaction with the fortifications near Tallinn. Mannerheim urged Paasikivi to come to terms with the Russians. However, the Finnish president K. Kallio was against concessions, which excluded the possibility of diplomatic maneuver.

On October 23, negotiations resumed. The Finns agreed to transfer the 5 islands in the Gulf of Finland and move the border from Leningrad to 10 km. On the question of the Hanko Peninsula a categorical rejection followed. The Soviet side continued to insist on renting Hanko, but agreed to reduce the base's garrison. Also, readiness was expressed to somewhat yield on the border issue on the Karelian Isthmus.

On November 3, the last round of negotiations began. The Soviet side showed great flexibility. The Hanko Peninsula was proposed to be rented, bought or exchanged. Finally, Moscow agreed to the islands off its coast. On November 4, the Finnish delegation sent a telegram to Helsinki in which it asked the government for consent to transfer the USSR to Yussare Island on a military base and the concession of Fort Ino on the Karelian Isthmus. However, the Finnish leadership was defeated by hardliners who had lost touch with reality. On November 8, a telegram arrived in which Finland refused any options for deploying a Russian base on Hanko or the islands in its vicinity. The concession on Ino could only be caused by the concession of Moscow on the issue of Hanko. On November 9, the last meeting of the Soviet and Finnish delegations took place. Negotiations finally stalled. On November 13, the Finnish delegation left Moscow.

Batteries located in Suomenlinna fire anti-aircraft fire to cover Helsinki. Suomenlinna (Suomenlinna - “Finnish Fortress”) - a bastion system of fortifications on the islands near Helsinki

Winter War

On 26 on November 1939, an incident occurred near the village of Mainila. According to the Soviet version, Finnish artillery fired on Soviet territory; as a result, 4 were killed and 9 Soviet soldiers were wounded. After the collapse of the USSR and the “exposure of the criminal Stalinist regime,” it was assumed that the provocation was the work of the NKVD. However, no matter who organized the shelling at Mainila, it was used by Moscow as a pretext for war. On November 28, the Soviet government denounced the Soviet-Finnish non-aggression pact and withdrew its diplomats from Helsinki.

On November 30 on November 1939, Soviet troops launched an offensive. The first stage of the war lasted until the end of December 1939, and was unsuccessful for the Red Army. On the Karelian Isthmus, Soviet troops, breaking the forefield of the Mannerheim line, on December 4 - 10 reached their main lane. But attempts to break through it were unsuccessful. After stubborn battles, both sides switched to a positional struggle.

The reasons for the failure of the Red Army are known: this is primarily the underestimation of the enemy. Finland was ready for war, had powerful fortifications on the border. The Finns mobilized in a timely manner, increasing the number of armed forces from 37 thousand to 337 thousand people. Finnish troops were deployed in the border zone, the main forces defended on the fortified line on the Karelian Isthmus. The Soviet intelligence, which did not have complete information about enemy defense, did a poor job. The Soviet political leadership had unreasonable hopes for the class solidarity of the Finnish workers, which was supposed to cause a breakdown in the rear of the Finnish army. These hopes did not materialize. There were also problems in the management, organization, and combat training of troops who had to fight in difficult conditions of a wooded, swampy, lake area, often without roads.

As a result, from the very beginning a strong enemy was underestimated, and did not allocate the necessary number of troops and means to break into a strong enemy defense. So, on the Karelian Isthmus, the main, decisive sector of the front, the Finns in December had 6 infantry divisions, 4 infantry and 1 cavalry brigades, 10 separate battalions. A total of 80 settlement battalions, 130 thousand people. From the Soviet side, 9 rifle divisions, 1 rifle-machine gun brigade, 6 tank brigades fought. Total 84 calculated infantry battalion, 169 thousand people. On the whole, on the whole front, against 265 thousand of Finnish soldiers there were 425 thousand of soldiers of the Red Army. That is, to defeat the enemy, which relied on powerful defenses, forces and means were few.

Soviet BT-5 tanks that were surrounded and destroyed by Finnish troops. In the background - a broken truck GAZ-AA

Damaged T-28 tanks of the Soviet 20-th tank brigade near the captured Finnish bunker Sj4 "Poppius" at 65,5 altitude after the assault. February 1940

The reaction of the West. Preparation of a “crusade” against the USSR

In the West they were aware of the Soviet-Finnish negotiations and provoked both sides to the war. So London told Helsinki that it was necessary to take a firm position and not succumb to pressure from Moscow. On November 24, the British hinted to Moscow that they would not intervene in the event of the Soviet-Finnish conflict. Thus, the British used their traditional principle of foreign policy - “divide and rule”. Obviously, the West deliberately pushed the Finns into the war as their “cannon fodder” in order to make the most of this situation. Only a relatively quick victory of the Red Army destroyed the plans of the masters of London and Paris.

It is not surprising that as soon as Soviet troops crossed the Finnish border, this caused a tantrum of the “world community”. The USSR was expelled from the League of Nations. The Western powers generously armed Finland. France and England supplied the Finns with dozens of combat aircraft, hundreds of guns, thousands of machine guns, hundreds of thousands of rifles, a huge amount of ammunition, uniforms and equipment. Thousands of volunteers arrived in Finland. Most Swedes - over 8 thousand people.

Moreover, England and France, which were in a state of "strange war" with the Third Reich (), were going to fight with the Russians. The Germans were given the opportunity to seize Poland, here it was different. The West did not intend to yield to Russia in restoring the Russian sphere of vital interests in the northwest. Having received an excellent opportunity, the Western democracies enthusiastically began to prepare a plan of attacks on the Soviet Union. A French military mission led by Lieutenant Colonel Haneval was sent to Finland. At the headquarters of the Finnish commander in chief Mannerheim was General Clement Grankur. Representatives of the West did their best to keep Finland in a state of war with Russia.

At this time, the West was preparing a plan of war with the USSR. Anglo-French troops planned to land in Pechenga. Union aviation had to strike at important objects of the USSR. The Westerners were preparing an attack not only in the north, but also in the south, in the Caucasus. Western troops in Syria and Lebanon were supposed to prepare an attack on Baku, depriving the USSR of oil produced there. From here, the allied forces were to begin a march to Moscow from the south, towards the Finnish and allied army, which would conduct an offensive from Scandinavia and Finland. That is, the plans for war with the USSR were grandiose. With the development of these plans, the Great Patriotic War could take a completely interesting turn: England and France (the United States behind them) against the USSR.

Soviet skiers are moving forward. Winter 1939 — 1940

Soviet 203-mm howitzer B-4 at a firing position on the Karelian Isthmus. February 1940

The defeat of Finland

However, all these far-reaching plans were foiled by the Red Army. Having carried out the necessary work on the mistakes, and the corresponding training, the significantly strengthened Soviet troops launched a decisive attack on the Karelian Isthmus on February 11 of the year 1940. Actively using heavy weapons - artillery, aircraft and tanks, our troops broke through the Finnish defense and by the 21 of February reached the second lane of the Mannerheim line. 7 - On 9 in March, Soviet soldiers broke through to Vyborg. Mannerheim told the government that the army was in danger of total annihilation.

Despite the persuasion of England and France, who assured that their troops were already on their way, on 12 on March 1940, the Finnish delegation in Moscow signed a peace agreement on Soviet terms. The northern part of the Karelian Isthmus with the cities of Vyborg and Sortavala, a number of islands in the Gulf of Finland, part of the Finnish territory with the city of Kuolajärvi, part of the Rybachy and Sredny peninsulas departed to the Soviet Union. As a result, Lake Ladoga was completely within the Soviet borders. The Union has leased part of the Hanko Peninsula (Gangut) for a period of 30 years to create a naval base on it.

Thus, Stalin solved the most important tasks to ensure the national security of Russia. Hostile Finland "forced to peace." The USSR received a military base on the Hanko Peninsula and pushed the border from Leningrad. After the start of World War II, the Finnish army was only able to enter the line of the old state border by September 1941. Finnish stupidity was obvious. At the negotiations in the autumn of 1939, Moscow requested less than 3 thousand square meters. km and even in exchange for twice as much territory, economic benefits. But the war led only to losses, and the USSR took about 40 thousand square meters. km, without giving anything in return. As the ancients said, “Woe to the vanquished!” When the Finns, on the eve of the signing of the Moscow Treaty, hinted at compensation for the transferred territory (Peter the Great paid 2 million thalers to Sweden in the Nishtadt world), then Molotov answered:

“Write a letter to Peter the Great. If he orders, we will pay compensation. ”

The West was well aware of the significance of this event. Speaking in parliament on 19 on March 1940, the head of the French government, Daladier, said that for France, “the Moscow peace treaty is a tragic and shameful event. This is a great victory for Russia. ” Indeed, this was the victory of the USSR, but the great victory of the 1945 of the year was still far away.

The Finnish army unit that left Vyborg follows new positions after the signing of the Moscow Peace Treaty between the USSR and Finland, according to which the border between the countries was established on a new line. Photo source: http://waralbum.ru

Comments

[Plantagenet]

“Hearing on the radio the message that the next day after the start of the war with Finland in the city of Terijoki, the Provisional People's Government of the Finnish Democratic Republic was formed by the insurgent workers and soldiers, my father told me:“ You see, no country can fight with us - immediately there will be a revolution. "

I was not too lazy to get a geographical map and saw that Terijoki is located on the very border. "Dad," I said, "and you know, it seems to me that it was like this: our troops entered Terijoki, and the leaders of the Finnish communists arrived with them, and they proclaimed a new government." My father did not agree with this version (later it turned out that it was absolutely correct), and we made a bet. Of course, there could be no evidence at that time - whether it was so or not, but four months later the war ended, Stalin failed to achieve the creation of Soviet Finland, and the "Provisional People's Government" dissolved itself. The father said: "Yes, you were right, there was no revolution in Finland."

Georgy Ilyich Mirsky "Life in three eras"

[Vladimir_2U]

Oh, and what Solzhenitsyna is no longer to quote on a training manual?

[Plantagenet]

Does Solzhenitsyn have quotes about the "Northern War"? Then, I think they should be written to you.

[Vladimir_2U]

If only you would have brought them.
And, by the way, there is a solzh about the "winter" war.

[Plantagenet]

I quoted from the book of Mr. Mirsky. Do you think that it violates the rules of the site? If not, why flood?

[Vladimir_2U]

How cleverly you got around an uncomfortable question.

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

How cleverly you got around an uncomfortable question.

I mean, they transferred the conversation to Mirsky’s zashkvar, without mentioning the Finnish Democratic Republic in an article about the Winter War?

[Vladimir_2U]

Forgot to mention Solzh. After all, I didn’t take an interest in Mirsky (just think, another figure with a fig in your pocket), but about a lie. And then suddenly it was about the rules of the site.

[Octopus]

And what do I care about both of them? You, too, like Samsonov, did not have a government in Terioki, or what?

[Alexander Suvorov]

Plantagenet (Alexander)
George Ilyich Mirsky

Your worldly is generally an abomination, a rare geek.

[BAI]

Georgy Ilyich Mirsky "Life in three eras"

Quote better:

The results and lessons of the Soviet-Finnish war
WAR # 4/1990, pp. 33-39
Colonel P. P. CHEVELA,
Candidate of Military Sciences

[Nagaibak]

BAI "Quote Better:"
You will kill them.))) A liberde's brain will explode. They are here a few wandering under different nicknames. They themselves put the pluses along the way.))) They write the same way, they think the same way. In general ... they are identical.

[mvbmvbmvb]

I see, Mirsky ... they are.

[Nagaibak]

Plantagenet "Georgy Ilyich Mirsky" Life in three epochs "
Well, yes Mirsky it is of course the ultimate truth.)))

[Vladimir_2U]

Without this war, there could have been no Victory in the 45th.

[Plantagenet]

How did this victory affect the victory of 1945? Was Voroshilov and Shaposhnikov removed? Or because the commander of the 44th division A.I. Vinogradov - was shot in January 1940, and the commander of the 18th G.F. Kondrashev - in April 1940? However, the commanders of the remaining divisions escaped their fate, and commanded in the 41st.

[Vladimir_2U]

The fact that this victory was hard was given, and some conclusions were drawn. The simplest conclusion, but very clear - this is the approach to winter uniforms in the Red Army.

[Plantagenet]

However, the interaction between tanks and infantry was not established, the tactics of getting out of the environment were not developed, and the question of developing defensive tactics was not raised. This tragically affected the course of many operations of the first months of World War II.

[Vladimir_2U]

A lot of things have not been done, but a lot has been done and meaningfully, so continuing the example with uniforms, how much harder would be the offensive operations in the winter time in budyonnovki, overcoats and boots? That alone saved how many lives.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Plantagenet

However, the interaction of tanks with infantry was not established

In order to establish it, it took more than two years of the war - with its most severe selection and very rigorous preparation. During the pre-war peaceful year, it was impossible to overcome 10 years of doing nothing.
Tank infantry not marching a refrain sounded in reports since the conflict on the CER. But no action was taken.

Quote: Plantagenet

the issue of developing defensive tactics was not raised

Half of the 1941 exercises are defense training.
The problem of the Red Army is that the command staff, instead of first studying the Charter, accurately applying it in practice, gaining experience and starting to apply the provisions of the Charter creatively - instead of all this, the command staff did not learn the Charter, did not apply it in practice, and invented a bicycle with great blood trial and error. It came to the point that in the orders of the front-line level it was necessary to actually quote the provisions of the Charter and demand their compliance.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

and some conclusions were drawn.

Of course, they did: Germany realized that the Red Army is weak, has incompetent leadership, lack of communication, etc.

Which became one of the reasons for Germany’s decision to attack the USSR,

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Olgovich

Which was one of the reasons for the decision of Germany

One of the least significant reasons, one of the most significant reasons, is the confidence of the leadership of Nazi Germany in the inferiority of the Russian people, where the course and results of the First World War took an important place. The "Winter War", even if it ended instantly and with a convincing victory for the USSR, would have little effect on the decision of the Nazi elite. Well, just think, some kind of "lakhtars" fenced.

[Vladimir_2U]

Incidentally, the attack on France and England in 40m year is the result of the Soviet Union's heavy victory in the "Winter War"?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

By the way нападение to France and England in 40 году

and to school?

[Vladimir_2U]

Transfer of the "strange war" to the hot phase.

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Olgovich

and to school?

"You are rude, lad!" (from)

[Fibrizio]

Given that France and England were the first to declare war on Germany, it is incorrect to put the question as you wrote, to put it mildly.
And supporters of the author of this article-falsification (a whole cycle of jingoistic articles, I would say "ideological") forget about the reasons why England and France declared war on Germany.
From their point of view, the "West" was preparing to attack the USSR.
The USSR itself gave Germany the opportunity to go to its borders. If the USSR declared war on Germany at 39, I strongly doubt that the consequences would be so catastrophic. Moreover, Germany would never attack Poland if the USSR had taken a stand against it.

Other articles appeared on this site (non-engrafted authors), analytics were carried out there on the subject of the capabilities of the USSR and Germany in the pre-war period, and the comparison just said that in the mid 30s the USSR was even more technical and equipped in Germany in some areas, every year the postponement just gave odds to the Germans.

Undoubtedly, everyone is smart in hindsight, but by agreeing to divide Poland, we contributed to what happened to Europe. And our goals were not peaceful. We wanted a piece of new land with a population opposed to communism and pushing the borders.


In general, it would be extremely interesting that other authors of our favorite resource, writing articles on historical topics, would give an article an analysis of such arts. That is to say, under the cut of an authoritative opinion. Such techniques are sometimes practiced in VO. Reading this is exciting and interesting. Since usually the authors do not stoop to the level of the yellow press, but work according to the principle "criticize - suggest".

I am for the analysis of Samsonov's articles by other authors to appear on the VO.

[voyaka uh]

"I am for the fact that the analysis of Samsonov's articles would appear on VO" ////
------
It makes no sense. Nothing will work.
Samsonov is a consistent "imperial neo-Stalinist".
He invents a story, fitting any event under one scheme:
"Stalin is reviving the Russian Empire, destroyed by the West."
This is now the main trend in Russia and is very popular.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

One of the least significant reasons

From the MOST: this is what the Germans themselves say about this:

Hitler, who closely followed the course of the war and saw miscalculations in the organization of the Red Army forces and the preparation of its command, came to the conclusion that the Wehrmacht could easily cope with it. DW.com

.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

one of the most significant reasons is the confidence of the leadership of Nazi Germany in the inferiority of the Russian people where the course and results of the First World War took an important place. The "Winter War", even if it ended instantly and with a convincing victory for the USSR, would have little effect on the decision of the Nazi elite

Yeah, only the decision to attack the USSR was made immediately AFTER the Winter War, and not in 1930-39. "Coincidence", yes ...

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Olgovich

DW.com

Well, yes, Deutsche Welle already in 1940 opened the site.

Quote: Olgovich

Yeah, only the decision to attack the USSR was made directly AFTER the Winter War.

So the decision to transfer the "Strange War" into a hot phase was also made after a tough victory over Finland. The reasons for June 22 are not in the Soviet-Finnish war.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Well, yes, Deutsche Welle is already in 1940 gI opened the site.

are you broadcasting from there too?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Not in the Soviet-Finnish war are the causes of June 22nd.

And there too.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Olgovich

Yeah, only the decision to attack the USSR was made directly AFTER the Winter War, and not in 1930-39.

After - does not mean by reason of.
The decision to attack the USSR was made due to the impossibility of directly forcing Britain to peace by landing on the Islands. So the Germans had to go over to indirect actions - to deprive Britain of the last hope on the continent.
The reasons for the attack on the USSR were named by Adolf in July 1940. Here is his speech at a meeting in Berghof on July 31.07.1940, XNUMX in Halder's note:

Assumption: We will not attack England, but break up the illusions that give England the will to resist. Then we can hope for a change in her position. The war itself is won. France fell away from the "British lion." Italy fetters British troops. Submarine and air war can decide the outcome of the war, but it will last a year or two.
The hope of England is Russia and America. If hopes for Russia collapse, America will also fall away from England, since the defeat of Russia will result in the incredible strengthening of Japan in East Asia.
Russia is the East Asian sword of England and America against Japan. An unpleasant wind blows here for England. The Japanese, like the Russians, have their own plan, according to which Russia should be eliminated before the end of the war. Russian film about the victorious war! England especially relies on Russia. Something happened in London! The British were completely discouraged, now they suddenly perked up again.
Overheard conversations. Russia is unhappy with the rapid development of events in Western Europe. It is enough for Russia to tell England that it does not want to see Germany too [strong] for the British to cling to this statement as if drowning in a straw, and began to hope that in six to eight months things will turn out very differently.
If Russia is defeated, England will lose its last hope. Then Germany will dominate in Europe and the Balkans.
Conclusion: In accordance with this reasoning, Russia should be eliminated. The deadline is spring 1941.
The sooner we break up Russia, the better. An operation will only make sense if we crush the entire state with one swift blow. Just capturing some part of the territory is not enough.

© Halder F. War Diary. Daily Records of the Chief of the General Staff of the Ground Forces 1939-1942 Record for 31.07.1940/XNUMX/XNUMX

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexey RA

After - does not mean for a reason.

"after" means TIME.

Decision time, taking into account ALL factors: the impossibility of landing on the islands of Britain, drang tries, the results of a weak Winter War, etc. etc.

[voyaka uh]

In December 1940, at the Berlin talks, Hitler (via Ribbentrop)
once again tried to offer Stalin (through Molotov) jointly
crush England by military means.
But stupid Molotov screwed up. Instead of being silent and
just pass on to Stalin, he began to joke stupidly about the inability
Germany defeated England and began to demand Bulgaria
and the Turkish straits.
Hitler was furious. Molotov was sent home, and Hitler went to the General Staff
and ordered the transfer of the general plan of Barbaross to the category of operational.
Stalin was seriously scared and sent a letter to Hitler with an apology for Molotov and
a request to continue negotiations.
But it was too late. War has become inevitable.
Protocols of the Berlin negotiations and letters published.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Olgovich

Of course, they did: Germany realized that the Red Army is weak, has incompetent leadership, lack of communication, etc.

The main thing is that these conclusions were made by the leadership of the USSR. Hitherto residing in illusions about the indestructible and legendary.
The speech of the IVS at the Meeting on the results of the SFV reads like an indictment of the Voroshilov Red Army. And the "NCO transfer act" is like a sentence.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexey RA

The main thing is that these conclusions were made by the leadership of the USSR. Hitherto residing in illusions about the indestructible and legendary.
The speech of the IVS at the Meeting on the results of the SFV reads like an indictment of the Voroshilov Red Army. And the "Act of transferring NGOs" - as a sentence

All made conclusions, each his own.

and the "Act of transferring the NKO" clearly described the reasons for the disaster of the Red Army in 1941 (in advance).

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Olgovich

Germany realized that the Red Army is weak, has incompetent leadership, lack of communication, etc.

And the Finns even before 30.11.1939/XNUMX/XNUMX believed that the Red Army was very weak, it does not have tanks (AT ALL), but there are imported tractors sheathed with painted plywood, which is easily pierced with a bayonet ... And that 3/4 of the population of the USSR hates the regime, because Stalin in such conditions will start to start a war, of course ...
Those. right - do not be this war, the position that the Germans, that the Finns would not have changed ...

[knn54]

Pay attention to one more point. In each military district there was a separate air defense army. But there were also two air defense districts - Baku and Moscow.
And the threat from the Anglo-French air group stationed in Syria and Lebanon was very serious. And who knows, maybe these forces would not be in the way in Europe when Hitler attacked France.

[Fibrizio]

In hindsight, everyone is strong. The USSR had no obvious reason to help the capitalist countries.
The Germans at that time were good trading partners. Beznes was.

[BAI]

With winter uniforms, everything is not quite simple. My father told me that at first it was like this: the rank and file was white short fur coats, and the officers were black. And the sniper officers in black short fur coats were knocked out at a time. Therefore, they urgently switched to white.

[Vladimir_2U]

This is of course a flaw, but it is more important that short fur coats, not overcoats.

[Alf]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

This is of course a flaw, but it is more important that short fur coats, not overcoats.

But the Hans, who saw a lot of flaws in the Red Army, met the first winter of the war in overcoats with cockroach fur, and not in short fur coats.

[Doliva63]

Quote: BAI

With winter uniforms, everything is not quite simple. My father told me that at first it was like this: the rank and file was white short fur coats, and the officers were black. And the sniper officers in black short fur coats were knocked out at a time. Therefore, they urgently switched to white.

Father from the 43rd was at the front, neither to uniforms, nor to food, said, there were no complaints - everything was on time and in good quality. Learned, however.

[voyaka uh]

In 1943, Lend-Lease was already working in full. Everything came from America without
restrictions.

[Doliva63]

Quote: voyaka uh

In 1943, Lend-Lease was already working in full. Everything came from America without
restrictions.

From him, from Lend-Lease, I remember only American bacon and Studebaker.

[strannik1985]

How did this victory affect the victory of 1945?

The distance to KaUR is greater, i.e. more time to bring the SD into combat readiness. Petrozavodsk can take faster, force the Svir earlier, earlier connect with the Germans near Tikhvin, plus the Finnish military flotilla on Ladoga, as a result of the complete blockade of Leningrad with all the consequences.

[Fibrizio]

Having received additional territory, we pushed the front, will argue only.
But do not forget what density of warehouses and troops was on the border territory. Based on this, it is highly doubtful that someone planned to launch the enemy deeply. As a result - monstrous losses in the mate and people. As much as we lost in the first 4 months, we never lost. Well, maybe at some moments 42 years, for example, the capture of the Crimea and the Borovenkovsky cauldron.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Plantagenet

How did this victory affect the victory of 1945?

So, it was only on the basis of the SFA that the top military-political leadership understood the real state of affairs in the army: that the bravura reports of the "first red officer" who painted a picture of overwhelming power are not worth the paper on which they are written, but in fact the modern army has There is no USSR. Actually, the IVS in its concluding speech at the Meeting spoke about this.
It was as a result of the SFV that real combat training began, with real marches (and not KShU), with real exits of all units (and not just a consolidated formation of the best, according to which they set the test). Real winter training began (before that, going out into the field at low temperatures was prohibited). Aviation began to fly - the flight time rose to 60-100 hours. The Disciplinary Regulations were finally adopted (the RKKA lived for 20 years according to the temporary charter, which no one followed), and the commanders took up the discipline of the l / s. The pre-war year in many memoirs of privates and junior command personnel is described as "and then they started to drive us like squid goats".
And the funniest thing started in the field of ideology. For starters, the "Civil War cult" was done away with:

The Civil War is not a real war, because it was a war without artillery, without aviation, without tanks, without mortars. Without all this, what is this serious war? It was a special war, not modern. We were poorly armed, poorly dressed, poorly fed, but still we defeated the enemy, who had much more weapons, who was much better armed, because here the spirit mainly played a role.
So, what prevented our commanding assembly from waging a war in Finland in a new way, not in the type of civil war, but in a new way? In my opinion, the cult of tradition and experience of the civil war interfered. As our command structure is regarded: have you participated in the civil war? No, I did not participate. Go away. Did he participate? Participated. Give him here, he has a lot of experience and more.
I must say, of course, the experience of the civil war is very valuable, the traditions of the civil war are also valuable, but they are completely insufficient. This is precisely the cult of the tradition and experience of the civil war that must be put to an end, and it prevented our command personnel from immediately reorganizing themselves in a new way, on the tracks of modern war.

And then GlavPUR swung at the sacred — the invincibility of the Red Army, the cult of the offensive and the class solidarity of the foreign proletariat. Immediately after the Conference on the results of the Special Forces Council, from the high rostrum, Mehlis directly declared that there are no invincible armies, that emphasis on offensive tactics (recorded in the Charter) is destructive for the Red Army and that the foreign proletariat and the poorest peasantry, according to the experience of Finland, can actively fight for the bourgeois - instead of raising a rebellion.

[Essex62]

Confidently correct position. But he was rinsed in every way, creating the myth of a bloody and dumb fanatic. Like Lavrenty Pavlovich, the Khrushchev borosypists did not deserve to be blackened.

[rocket757]

The West was preparing a “crusade” against the USSR. England and France were preparing to strike at Russia from the north, from Scandinavia, and the south from the Caucasus. The war could take on a completely different character. But these plans were thwarted by the Red Army, which defeated the Finnish troops before the West began its operation.

Western hawks have to be reminded that there are those who need to roll their beaks and pluck their wings!
Not a peaceful, friendly environment in the Land of Soviets was ALWAYS!

[Amurets]

Push the Finnish border from Leningrad. The border passed only 32 km from the city, which allowed long-range enemy artillery to hit the second Soviet capital. Also, the Finns could inflict artillery attacks on Kronstadt, the only Baltic Fleet base, to our ships. It was necessary to decide to get free access to the sea for the Baltic Fleet. Back in March 1939, Moscow sensed the issue of transferring or leasing islands in the Gulf of Finland. But the Finnish leadership refused categorically.

How long will this nonsense about artillery shelling from Finland be? Aviation posed a threat to Leningrad. Fort Ino was thoroughly destroyed. "Konstantin A. Artamonov, on his own initiative, on May 14, 1918, at 23.30 blew up Fort Ino. In his report, K.A. Artamonov reasoned his actions quite convincingly. The main argument is that the fort could be in the hands of the White Finns, and this is for Kronstadt, and, therefore, it was extremely dangerous for the Soviet power. The senior naval commander in Kronstadt, S.V. Zarubaev, also shared the opinion about the expediency of the explosion. To the questions of the investigating commission, he replied: “I believe that the explosion of Fort Ino was caused by the situation timely ...... In December 1939, the commission of ANIMI (Artillery Scientific Research Maritime Institute) examined the fort Ino. All defensive structures were destroyed. Near the harbor there was a small house, apparently a police checkpoint. The commission noted that the restoration of the fort is connected with a huge amount of work.It is interesting that the inspection of the fort took place in winter, there was a lot of snow, however, the commission's report indicated that it was not found o not a single metal object. "http://nataturka.ru/muzey-usadba/fort-ino-nikolaevskiy.html

[Vladimir_2U]

It was a threat from long-range field artillery, if the air raid could not be repelled, then weakened, then there was no protection from shells (except for counter-battery combat, of course)

[Octopus]

Firstly, what kind of Finnish artillery of 1939 do you mean when speaking of shelling the city from a distance of 32 km? K9?

[Vladimir_2U]

The Soviet leadership harbored no illusions about Germany and the very likely alliance with Russophobic Finland (100 percent union). By the way, the case when the saying "Don't spit in the well ..." does not work: the aggressive and Russophobic Finland of that time is the well into which it was necessary to pile and concrete!

[Vladimir_2U]

"8 guns, which had the designation" 20,3-cm SK С / 34 ", and the remaining from the cruiser were converted into railway guns. They were installed on 8-axle railway platforms with carriages from 210-mm guns" Peter Adelbert ", which remained since World War I. TTX guns: caliber - 203 mm; barrel length - 12,1 m; installation weight - 86,1 tons; gun weight - 20,7 tons; projectile weight - 122 - 124 kg; muzzle velocity - 925 m / s; rate of fire - 1 shot in 2 minutes; firing range - 38 km. " about such artillery we are talking about.

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

about such artillery in question.

Finnish railway equipment? I did not expect from them.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Soviet leadership had no illusions about Germany

Is this with which it signed a friendship agreement three months ago? Why is it that the Soviet government had so few friends, even strange.

And by the way, about German railway guns. A lot of them appeared on the Finnish side, when did the Finnish-German union really become a fact? Why, by the way, Finland turned out to be a 100% ally of Germany, and for some reason England and France harnessed to bomb the USSR in the 39th, how did it happen?

[Vladimir_2U]

Were these guns? There were. So their appearance had to be taken into account.

Quote: Octopus

This is with whom it is a friendship agreement

Since when has the non-attack pact become a friendship treaty?

Quote: Octopus

for some reason England and France harnessed to bomb the USSR in the 39th

but they didn’t harness it, but why did they harness it, was it because they considered the war with Germany a fiction?

Quote: Octopus

A lot of them came from the Finnish side

Unfortunately, less long-range guns went into action, which, albeit indirectly, covered the Finns.

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Since when has the non-attack pact become a friendship treaty?

From 28.09.1939/XNUMX/XNUMX. Google, Treaty of friendship and border between the USSR and Germany

Quote: Vladimir_2U

because did they consider the war with Germany a fiction?

So who was whose ally?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

albeit indirectly, the Finns covered.

What does "indirectly" mean? Did they shoot or did not shoot, it seems to be not a matter of predictions?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

From 28.09.1939/XNUMX/XNUMX. Google, Treaty of friendship and border between the USSR and Germany

"Treaty of Friendship and Border", the usual diplomatic wording, in your opinion, should it be called "Treaty of Enmity and Border"? By the way, in the text of the treaty, the word "friendship" is only in the title, and "friendly relations" occurs only once.

Quote: Octopus

because did they consider the war with Germany a fiction?

So who was whose ally?

The agreement was not about "Friendship, cooperation and military alliance"! The agreement on military alliance with Britain, France, and before that with Czechoslovakia against Germany did not take place through no fault of the USSR!

Quote: Octopus

What does "indirectly" mean? Did they shoot or did not shoot, it seems to be not a matter of predictions?

The batteries themselves, perhaps, might not have been covered, but our troops were very actively pulling themselves. It's obvious, don't pretend to be a fool.

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Should you have called it the "Treaty of Enmity and Border"?

Was there such an agreement with Finland?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

did not take place through no fault of the USSR!

This is when the Francobrites, having surrendered Czechoslovakia to Hitler, were supposed to surrender Poland to Stalin?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

It's obvious, don't pretend to be a fool.

What is obvious to you? It seems that the whole fuss began because the Finns could shell Leningrad, so I ask, did they fire in the end?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

This is when the Francobrites, having surrendered Czechoslovakia to Hitler, were supposed to surrender Poland to Stalin?

This is how, enlighten, so be kind.

Quote: Octopus

Finns could shell Leningrad, so I ask, did they fire in the end?

So I answer you, they actively helped the Germans with manpower, pulling the Soviet troops back upon themselves, they just started to do this not from the old border, but from a much more disadvantageous one. And you turn on the fool.

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

This is how

The idea of ​​Stalin suggested the entry of the Red Army into Poland.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

So I answer you, they actively helped the Germans with manpower, pulling the Soviet troops

That is, all these conversations about the terrible threat to Leningrad from too close a border - bullshit, I understand correctly? Nobody fired at him, and he was not going to take it. Moreover, in a situation where the alliance with Germany is not can be well already is.

[Vladimir_2U]

It is now possible to say that bullshit, but then everything was serious, by the way, except for field artillery, the sea line of defense was also pushed aside. Any more or less versed person remembers the place of battleships in the pre-war naval doctrines, so it’s a shame to ignore the fears of the Soviet leadership on this subject.

[strannik1985]

Why, by the way, Finland turned out to be a 100% ally of Germany, and for some reason England and France harnessed to bomb the USSR in the 39th, how did it happen?

Judging by the Moscow talks in the summer of 1939, France and England did not want a military alliance with the USSR.

[Octopus]

Quote: strannik1985

France and England did not want a military alliance with the USSR.

They didn’t want to. How does this relate to Finland?

[strannik1985]

They didn’t want to. How does this relate to Finland?

Very simply, without allies, the USSR is forced to ensure its own security.

[Octopus]

Quote: strannik1985

without allies, the USSR is forced to ensure its own security.

You did not understand. How did it happen that in the 39th, Germany was somehow 100% ally on the drum, while Britain and France had been seriously at war?

[strannik1985]

How did it happen that in the 39th, Germany was somehow 100% ally on the drum, while Britain and France had been seriously at war?

Because Germany needs peace on the line of contact with the USSR, and France and England only indicated a certain intention and nothing more.

[Octopus]

Quote: strannik1985

world on the line of contact with the USSR

Or what? And what does Finland have to do with the line of contact of the Reich with the USSR?

[strannik1985]

Or what? And what does Finland have to do with the line of contact of the Reich with the USSR?

Or get another land front in 1939, which Hitler did not want much.
Finland's position is such that it is not averse to biting off a piece from the USSR, if there is such an opportunity, while the old and new "guarantors" of Finland were busy with each other, the USSR was solving the problem.

[Octopus]

Quote: strannik1985

Or get another land front in 1939,

That is, the USSR will also attack Germany? By this very army?

Quote: strannik1985

not averse to bite off a piece of the USSR, there is such an opportunity

What were Finland's territorial claims against the USSR in 1939?

[strannik1985]

That is, the USSR will also attack Germany? By this very army?

It is quite planned that a war with Poland is planned, there may be incidents upon reaching the border with the USSR, why take the risk?

What were Finland's territorial claims against the USSR in 1939?

In 1939? None. The situation is not profitable, but in 1941 they could have appeared, had to wait?

[Amurets]

Quote: Octopus

Finnish railway equipment? Did not expect from them

Unfortunately there were. But in the Second World War. https://topwar.ru/165236-trofejnye-sovetskie-protivotankovye-orudija-v-vs-germanii-vo-vtoruju-mirovuju.html#comment-id-9899870
But these were our three conveyors of 12 "guns of the 9th railway battery and conveyors of 180mm guns, which the Finns got on Hanko in a damaged condition. Bragin." Cannons on rails. "

[Octopus]

Quote: Amurets

that the Finns went to Hanko in a damaged condition

That is, the Soviet Union fought in the 39th in order to bring these same guns to this very Finland? Ingenious. I didn’t know about that.

[Amurets]

Quote: Octopus

That is, the Soviet Union fought in the 39th in order to bring these same guns to this very Finland? Ingenious. I didn’t know about that.

Well, we don't suck like that. After the "Winter War", the USSR nevertheless took the Hanko naval base on lease and redeployed there two railway batteries 12 "and 180 mm, which, together with the batteries of the Aegna and Naisar islands, were supposed to close the throat of the Gulf of Finland. In December 1941, when After the evacuation of the Hanko naval base garrison, the guns were badly damaged, but the Finns were able to restore them.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Octopus

Is this with which it signed a friendship agreement three months ago? Why did the Soviet government have so few friends, even countries

Illusions are your opponent.

But the conscience of the government, no illusions: 31 10.39 g its Chairman Molotov burst out such a message about "Crimes of the war against Hitlerism" , so much confidence, optimism, praise from him about Germany, that not words .. Germany is no longer ... the aggressor, but they are England against France .. FIGHTER FOR PEACE Germany etc.

Molotov: Since the conclusion of the Soviet-German non-aggression treaty on August 23, the abnormal relations that existed for several years between the Soviet Union and Germany were put to an end. The hostility, which was strongly warmed up by some European powers, was replaced by rapprochement and the establishment of friendly relations between the USSR and Germany.

Proved to be sufficientquick strike in Poland from the first German army, and then - Red Armyso that nothing is left of this ugly brainchild of the Treaty of Versailles

an interesting report, just before the Winter War:

Molotov: There is hardly any reason to dwell on those fables that are circulating in the foreign press about the proposals of the Soviet Union in negotiations with Finland. Some argue that the USSR "demands" the city of Vipuri (Vyborg) and the northern part of Lake Ladoga. Let's say from ourselves that this is pure fiction and a lie (General laughter.)

And those who were not laughing turned out to be right ...

[kalibr]

"It was proposed to rent, buy or exchange the Hanko Peninsula. Finally, Moscow agreed to the islands off its coast." A huge power offered to give an independent small state a piece of territory. Why don't we give Japan two tiny islands somewhere out there ... According to the principle - "you can't give up land." Today two islands, tomorrow a piece of land somewhere else. We can think so. The Finns couldn't! We also condemn the West's double standards ...

[Aviator_]

Why aren’t we giving Japan two tiny islands out there ...

Why doesn't Israel give the Golan Heights?

[Octopus]

Quote: Aviator_

why does not Israel give the Golan Heights?

But why?

[Fibrizio]

Because it can. But this has nothing to do with justice or legality.

[BAI]

An independent small state, a huge power offered to give a piece of territory. Why don't we give Japan two tiny islands out there somewhere

In 2019, the political and economic situation was somewhat different from the realities of 1939.

[hohol95]

The fact that London should withdraw its administration from the Chagos archipelago before November 22 was announced six months ago. Expired. British authorities refuse to implement the UN resolution.
"We have all rights to this territory. Great Britain does not hear the call of the world community. 116 UN countries expressed to us the International Criminal Court in The Hague, the International Court of Justice, and then the General Assembly ruled in favor of Mauritius. The May resolution gave London six months to withdraw his colonial administration from the islands.
The British Foreign Office said that they do not recognize the claims of Mauritius to this archipelago and are not going to give this territory. Full support. Against only six countries. That says a lot, "says Mauritian Prime Minister Pravind Jagnot.

Is there a UN resolution on the transfer of the islands of Japan?
And who is to blame for the "sons of the Land of the Rising Sun" that they do not recognize the results of the Second World War on the part of the USSR / RF?

[hohol95]

"It was proposed to rent, buy or exchange the Hanko Peninsula. Finally, Moscow agreed to the islands off its coast." A huge power offered to give an independent small state a piece of territory. Why don't we give Japan two tiny islands somewhere out there ...

What does Japan offer to exchange islands for? Or for what amount does they want to purchase or rent?
Are there any numbers of offers?

[Alf]

Quote: hohol95

Are there any numbers of offers?

There is. For "a good attitude towards Russia."

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: kalibr

Why don't we give Japan two tiny islands out there somewhere.

So let the Japanese offer us 10 times more land for exchange, like our Finns in 1939. And we will consider ...

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Amurets

How much will this nonsense about artillery shelling from Finland already be? Aviation posed a threat to Leningrad. Fort Ino was thoroughly destroyed.

Nevertheless, the Finns still had 12 "/ 52" - and from the Finnish territory the Obukhov guns theoretically finished off both to Kronstadt and to Leningrad.
And I would not harbor unfounded illusions about the ability of our intelligence to detect the positions of these weapons in advance. For in real life there is a sad experience of a two-gun 12 "battery at Cape Ristiniemi / Krestovy near Vyborg - our army team learned about the existence of this battery only after the war.

[Amurets]

Quote: Alexey RA

Nevertheless, the Finns still had 12 "/ 52" - and from the Finnish territory the Obukhov guns theoretically finished off both to Kronstadt and to Leningrad.

Three guns of the 9th battery on railway conveyors and 6 180mm conveyors. Yes, there was such a thing, but here is an article in which we discussed three years ago.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Amurets

Three guns of the 9th battery on railway conveyors and 6 180mm conveyors.

The Finns received these weapons already in 1941, during the "continuation war". So, they have nothing to do with the possible causes of SPI.

I wrote about open single-gun 12 "/ 52s, which the Finns inherited in 1918, together with the coastal defense of the former Baltic Fleet. Theoretically, they even reached Leningrad with regular shells from the Repino-Solnechnoye area.
In addition, our specialists had before their eyes a domestic lightweight long-range 12 "projectile: if we did this, then the Finns with German / English / Swedish help would also be able to. And with a similar projectile 12" 52 could get from the Zelenogorsk region to the city center.
Moreover, judging by the batteries of Cape Ristiniemi and Yarissev, the Finns had every chance to build firing positions unnoticed.

[Amurets]

Quote: Alexey RA

Moreover, judging by the batteries of Cape Ristiniemi and Yarissev, the Finns had every chance to build firing positions unnoticed.

Thank you for reminding me. "And finally - the positions themselves. Built by the Finns in the 1930s to mount 305-mm guns removed from the island of Ere. There were two guns in two spaced concrete blocks. The battery was organizationally part of 2- 4st coastal artillery regiment, defending the Vyborg Bay. " http://www.nortfort.ru/coastal/foto_ristXNUMX.html

[Octopus]

Quote: Alexey RA

Obukhov’s guns theoretically reached Finnish territory both to Kronstadt and to Leningrad.

Have you practically finished off? Or did the Finns never find time to check in three years?

[Amurets]

Quote: Amurets

Nevertheless, the Finns still had 12 "/ 52" - and from the Finnish territory the Obukhov guns theoretically finished off both to Kronstadt and to Leningrad.

Quote: Octopus

Have you practically finished off? Or did the Finns never find time to check in three years?

And here in this article is the answer to the question. Https: //topwar.ru/102628-finskaya-artilleriya-prosto-ne-mogla-dobit-do-leningrada.html

[kalibr]

Quote: Aviator_

Why doesn't Israel give the Golan Heights?

Sergei! We have already noted here that one meanness should not be justified by the presence of examples of another meanness. That is, if, simply speaking, some person broke your window, this does not mean that you thereby received an indulgence to break the windows of all your neighbors and make excuses like this: "They broke me ..."

[Octopus]

Quote: kalibr

the presence of examples of another meanness.

This is the occupation of the Golan by Israel, you have "another meanness"?

[Nagaibak]

kalibr "We have already noted here that one meanness should not be justified by the presence of examples of another meanness."
To politics, the concept of meanness is somehow strange to apply.))))))

[smaug78]

Samsonov ...

[kalibr]

Quote: BAI

In 2019, the political and economic situation was somewhat different from the realities of 1939.

Machiavelli's book The Sovereign was also not written yesterday. But all of its provisions are still relevant today.

[BAI]

But all of its provisions are relevant today.

There are certain principles that have not changed for centuries (should not at least). And the exchange of territories depends entirely on the prevailing conjuncture.

[Olgovich]

The Finns were actively preparing for war.

shortly before the Winter War, in the same 1939, the size of their army was as much ... 37 thousand people (unchanged for how many years), tankettes-32 (!) pcs. Precisely, with might and main "prepared"

By the beginning of World War II, a clearly hostile state was located on the northwestern borders of the Soviet Union

Just a few thousand km2 have been taken from them by force. and they are ungrateful. hostility fed ....

Finland should have set aside a place to create a military base on the coast. The Hanko Peninsula was proposed. In addition, Finland should have cede its part of the Rybachy Peninsula

to whom, I wonder, she was "owed"? on what basis?

The Germans were given the chance to seize Poland,

Only to the Germans? But they declared war on those, but the USSR -NO. It turns out that the West of the USSR supported ...

Western troops in Syria and Lebanon were supposed to prepare a strike on Baku, depriving the USSR of oil produced there. From here, the allied forces were to begin a march to Moscow from the south,

Baku fed the Nazis with oil. with which the West was at war. therefore, the option of air raids was considered. Moreover, the West warned the USSR about the inadmissibility of such supplies.
I would not like to see speculation about a land trip to Moscow.

Summary: in 1939-4, the USSR had to correct those gross errors (crimes). that the usurpers of power (stumbling blocks) committed against the interests of the country in 1917-1920: this is a stupid recognition of the independence of Finland (without specifying borders, division of property, etc.), stupid recognition invalid borders of Russia with Poland by decree on non-recognition of the partitions of Poland and the same stupid trip to Germany through Poland.

And the border was moved with the Finns, of course, CORRECTLY and western Russia was also returned-right.
But I had to do it under fire formally fair criticism and all because of criminal nonsense 1917-20gg. -with great losses of people and image ...

Such was their high price ...

.

.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Olgovich

to whom, I wonder, she was "owed"? on what basis?

Those. Finland USSR should not, but:

Quote: Olgovich

Moreover, the West warned the USSR about the inadmissibility of such supplies.

USSR should the west? Unambiguously, the anti-Soviet is a Russophobe machine, so that he would not consider himself there.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

USSR should the west?

Not to the West, MYSELF was to-restrain Nazism.

Although I understand you, you support Comrade. Molotov, Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR of 31.10.39:

not only pointless but it’s also criminal to wage such a warlike a war for the destruction of Hitlerism

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Unambiguously, the anti-Soviet is an automatic Russophobe, so that he would not consider himself there.

Of course, these advisers are real Russophiles : it was under them that the territory of Russia in just 18 years (from 1922 to 1940, decreased by 13 GERMANY frg-na 4 million km2-This is the current borders of Russia.

And the fastest growing Russian people brought to Russian cross in just a few decades.

Such is the "love" - ​​until death ...

[Vladimir_2U]

"... In any case, under the" ideological "flag, a war of an even greater scale and even greater dangers for the peoples of Europe and the whole world is now started. But this kind of war has no justification for itself. The ideology of Hitlerism, like any other ideological system, it can be recognized or denied, this is a matter of political views. But any person will understand that ideology cannot be destroyed by force, you cannot end a war with it. Therefore, it is not only senseless, but also criminal to wage such a war as the war for the "destruction of Hitlerism"... Here is a more complete quote. Note that this is said after the defeat in the Spanish Civil War, when England and France effectively blocked the legitimate government of Spain, after the unpunished Anschluss of Austria, after the surrender of Czechoslovakia with all its factories and resources to England and France, and after the strange start of the "Strange War" when Germany "bombed" with leaflets, not bombs. It’s clear that Comrade. Molotov spoke out against the involvement of the USSR in this war.

Quote: Olgovich

from 1922 to 1940 it was reduced by 13 GERMANY FRG - by 4 million km2 - this is the current borders of Russia

Are you talking about the national borderlands that fell away after the February "revolution" and the Civil War? So they were annexed, albeit under the guise of the Union Republics. It was the anti-Sovietists who loved them, all sorts of Gorbachevs there, Yakovlevs, Shevardnadze ...

Quote: Olgovich

And the fastest growing Russian people brought to the Russian Cross in just a few decades

Quite right, since 1991, just a few decades have passed. What about you?

[Olgovich]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Here is a quote more complete

Its meaning does NOT change:

the ideology of Hitlerism cannot be destroyed by forcenot end her war

Do you agree with her, as I understand it?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Are you talking about the national borderlands that fell away after the February "revolution" and the Civil War? So they were annexed, albeit under the guise of the Union Republics. It was the anti-Sovietists who loved them, all sorts of Gorbachevs there, Yakovlevs, Shevardnadze ...

You are given YEARS, I repeat: from 1922 to 1940 RUSSIA lost 13 Germany, 10 CRIMEAs per year. And tens of millions of the population (in 1913 figures).
These are the current borders of Russia. Now answer, "Russophile": When else Russia suffered such catastrophes, as with the "Russophiles"?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Quite right, since 1991, just a few decades have passed. What about you?

I am about the illiteracy of the "Russophiles" who do not know about the extinction of the Russian people with 1964 g and the Russian Cross from 1992

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Olgovich

It’s not only pointless, but also criminal to wage such a war as the war for the annihilation of Hitlerism

Quote: Olgovich

the ideology of Hitlerism cannot be destroyed by force, it is impossible to end its war

Cutting quotes is your hobby, that goes without saying.

Quote: Olgovich

You are given YEARS, I repeat: from 1922 to 1940, RUSSIA lost 13 Germany, 10 Crimea per year. And tens of millions of the population (in 1913 figures).
These are the current borders of Russia. Now answer, "Russophile": When else did Russia suffer such disasters as under the "Russophiles"?

Quote: Olgovich

Are you talking about the national borderlands that fell away after the February "revolution" and the Civil War? So they were annexed, albeit under the guise of the Union Republics. It was the anti-Sovietists who loved them, all sorts of Gorbachevs there, Yakovlevs, Shevardnadze ...

Wow, but I didn’t notice about tens of millions of people, didn’t you remember about the civil war and the intervention? Well, yes, yes, the "bulkokhrusty" here are completely innocent, yes.

Quote: Olgovich

I'm talking about the illiteracy of the "Russophiles" who do not know about the extinction of the Russian people since 1964 and the Russian Cross since 1992.

That you broadcast about 22-40 years, then suddenly about 64 years old, then what side? And about 1992, it’s even strange to read, in fact, frank anti-advisers have been in power since 91! You are already confused.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Cutting quotes is your hobby, that goes without saying.

Both phrases were spoken by Molotov.
The THIRD time I ask: do you agree with the speech that it is CRIMINAL to fight Hitlerism?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Wow, but I didn’t notice about tens of millions of people, didn’t you remember about the civil war and the intervention? Well, yes, yes, the "bulkokhrusty" here are completely innocent, yes.

wagging like a tail, do not "see" the question point blank

"Russophile", WHERE 13 Germany, cut off from 1922 to 1940 with people from Russia ?!

The population, ONCE AGAIN I say, in numbers 1913 g- neither the civil unleashed by you, nor your hunger is NOT.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

That you broadcast about 22-40 years, then suddenly about 64 years old, then what side? And about 1992, it’s even strange to read, in fact, frank anti-advisers have been in power since 91! You are already confused.

They betrayed the Russians with the land, from 1922 to 1940.
Russians have been dying out since 1964.
Russian Cross - since 1992, he result of "struggles" for the "happiness of the people" from 1917 -25,
from 1930

Got it, finally?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

In any case, under the "ideological" flag, a war of an even greater scale and even greater dangers for the peoples of Europe and the whole world is now started

And what did you throw out this phrase?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

after the defeat in the Spanish Civil War, when England and France effectively blocked the legitimate government of Spain, after the unpunished Anschluss of Austria, after the surrender of Czechoslovakia with all its factories and resources to England and France and after the strange start of the "Strange War", when Germany was "bombed" by leaflets, not bombs.

but what about these facts do not remember? The USSR fought directly against the Nazis back in 37, tried to restore Europe, and even Poland against Nazi Germany, and only when it became clear that war could not be avoided, only then, forcedly, it changed its rhetoric and policy to a more loyal Germany. As a result, Germany attacked the USSR with all sorts of bastards, but without the Russophobic "battlefield hyena" - Poland!

Quote: Olgovich

"Russophile", WHERE 13 FRG, cut off by you from 1922 to 1940 together with people from Russia ?!

Where are 14 union republics, with Russian people abandoned there? Abandoned by people like you!

Quote: Olgovich

They betrayed the Russians with the land, from 1922 to 1940.
Russians have been dying out since 1964.
Russian Cross - since 1992, it is the result of the "struggle" for the "happiness of the people" since 1917 - 25,
from 1930

This is just a mess in your head.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

And what did you throw out this phrase?

And what's in it? There is a war with Hitlerism. dangerous. So what?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

but what about these facts do not remember? The USSR fought directly against the Nazis back in 37, tried to restore Europe, and even Poland against Nazi Germany, and only when it became clear that war could not be avoided, only then, forcedly, it changed its rhetoric and policy to a more loyal Germany. As a result, Germany attacked the USSR with all sorts of bastards, but without the Russophobic "battlefield hyena" - Poland!

Those. you in FOURTH RPAZ evade the answer to the SIMPLE question:

Do you agree with the speech that it is CRIMINAL to fight Hitlerism?

Do not break, come on!

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Where are 14 union republics, with Russian people abandoned there? Abandoned by people like you!

Where YOU threw them from 1917 to 1940 . EVERYTHING today is strictly on TEM borders of 1917-1940. YOUR borders of YOUR states.

2. That I myself -... threw ?!

"Russophile", WHERE 13 FRG, cut off by you from 1922 to 1940, together with millions of people, from RUSSIA?!- already after the formation of the USSR, huh?

And if there was "ah, it doesn't matter", then why didn't they leave them ... to Russia ?!

This is just a mess in your head.

These are just killer (for you) FACTS,

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Olgovich

Those. you in FOURTH RPAZ evade the answer to the SIMPLE question:

On the basis of a quotation that is heavily cut off, which means that you are deliberately distorted by you, you are trying to get me to justify Nazism, I will answer your false claim with the words of J.V. Stalin: “We now have allies who, together with us, are holding a united front against the German invaders. now the sympathy and support of all the peoples of Europe who fell under the yoke of Hitler's tyranny. " Let the Nazis and their Vlasov henchmen lick pans in hell, do you understand?
Judge not by words but by deeds, England nurtured German Nazism, the USSR from the first day fought against German Nazism, somewhere in a word, somewhere with the support of anti-fascists, and somewhere directly with weapons, and only when it became clear that the war with the Nazis was incited and inevitable, only then did the USSR retreat in tactics in order to win in strategy, only then did it change politics and rhetoric regarding Nazi Germany, it was compelled!

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

You are on the basis of a very circumcised, and therefore deliberately distorted quote by you

This is Olgovich! Fitting, tweaking the numbers, taking them out of context is his strong point! To this should be added the impenetrable stupidity of formalism (for him, if it says "penis" => it is there that lies ) and tenacity worthy of a bulldozer (you’ll kill time today to refute it with figures, facts, and documents, you p., and tomorrow, as though nothing had happened, it will lead the same barrel organ, and literally the same.). Do not waste your strength on it. It's useless.

[Vladimir_2U]

Well, a complete shed to him at these same. )))

[Olgovich]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

You are on the basis of a very circumcised, and therefore deliberately distorted quote by you

The quote is given by me FULLY, liar.

And there is NO other meaning in it. Even you are not able to come up with it, and Molotov was not going to do it.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

I.V. Stalin: "We now have allies holding together with us a united front against the German invaders. We now have the sympathy and support of all the peoples of Europe who have fallen under the yoke of Hitler's tyranny. "

Here is a quote from Stalin about the allies:

France and England attacked Germany, taking responsibility for the current war. The ruling circles of England and France Germany rudely rejected...

And more:

The friendship of the peoples of Germany and the Soviet Union, sealed with blood, has every reason to be long and lasting. "

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Let Natsik and their Vlasov minions fry pans in hell, do you understand?
Judge not by words but by deeds, England nurtured German Nazism, the USSR from the first day fought against German Nazism, somewhere in a word, somewhere with the support of anti-fascists, and somewhere directly with weapons, and only when it became clear that the war with the Nazis was incited and inevitable, only then did the USSR retreat in tactics in order to win in strategy, only then did it change the policy and rhetoric regarding Nazi Germany, forcedly!

Who forced to conclude a FRIENDSHIP treaty with the Nazis, send them to take Paris, etc., mislead YOUR citizens?

PS You never answered, "Russophile",

WHERE 13 FRG cut off by you from 1922 to 1940, together with millions of people, from RUSSIA?! -after education of the USSR?

Shame .....

[Essex62]

Well, porridge in the head on the shoulders with gold epaulets. No, you are not Russophobe, this is too much. Zakrebetnik, a landowner, he is also Russian. Only when it was the fate of ordinary Russian peasants worried him. A thoroughbred dog how many heads of serfs were worth? Do not know? Was there a right life?
But I remember very surprised when a trainee at AZLK heard how a hard worker sent a secretary of the party committee on a trip. With all and nothing at all.
The Bolsheviks made many mistakes, but this is not surprising. For the first time in history, a correct, non-caste society has developed.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Essex62

Well, porridge in the head on the shoulders with gold epaulets. No, you are not Russophobe, this is too much. Zakrebetnik, a landowner, he is also Russian. Only when it was the fate of ordinary Russian peasants worried him. A thoroughbred dog how many heads of serfs were worth? Do not know? Was there a right life?
But I remember very surprised when a trainee at AZLK heard how a hard worker sent a secretary of the party committee on a trip. With all and nothing at all.

Not for me, but for Topic article, have something to say? No?
So don't fool your head

[Essex62]

Well, porridge in the head on the shoulders with gold epaulets. No, you are not Russophobe, this is too much. Zakrebetnik, a landowner, he is also Russian. Only when it was the fate of ordinary Russian peasants worried him. A thoroughbred dog how many heads of serfs were worth? Do not know? Was there a right life?
But I remember very surprised when a trainee at AZLK heard how a hard worker sent a secretary of the party committee on a trip. With all and nothing at all.
The Bolsheviks made many mistakes, but this is not surprising. For the first time in history, a correct, non-caste society has developed.

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Well, definitely, the anti-Soviet automatic russophobe,

That is, oil supplies to the Reich went for the good of the Russian people, did I understand you correctly?

[Vladimir_2U]

And the reciprocal deliveries of machines, equipment and technologies did not go to the detriment of the Reich? And yes, Romania didn’t even plan to bomb Romania with anything, it’s strange, isn’t it?

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Yes, Romania didn’t even plan to bomb anything the French and French, it’s strange, is it?

Speaking of Romania. And when and how did it happen that pro-British Romania became a German ally, do you not know?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

reciprocal deliveries of machine tools, equipment and technologies

What's wrong with them?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

Articles about Romania. And when and how did it happen that pro-British Romania became a German ally, do you not know?

Speaking of Britain, how and when did it happen that Russophobic and anti-Soviet Britain became an ally of the USSR?

Quote: Octopus

reciprocal deliveries of machine tools, equipment and technologies

What's wrong with them?

They were, and in significant quantities, the "fattest" of the well-known, example - "Luttsov", in the course of what it is?

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Speaking of Britain, how and when did it happen that Russophobic and anti-Soviet Britain became an ally of the USSR?

Very well remembered. It seems that someone has attacked Britain. Well, or she attacked, it doesn’t matter.

But nobody accidentally attacked Romania, remember?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Lyuttsov ", know what this is?

Lutsev, even wanted to write about him right away.

And how are Luttsov? A lot of profit came from the Russian people?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Octopus

It seems someone attacked Britain

Definitely not the USSR.

Quote: Octopus

But nobody accidentally attacked Romania, remember?

The return of occupied Bessarabia, and without fighting, is this an attack? Then the return of the Crimea, also an attack, according to your logic.
“In 1940, Romania agreed to transfer its oil fields in Ploiesti to the Germans for use in exchange for political and military protection. For this, the Germans began supplying captured Polish weapons to Romania,” this happened before the Bessarabian campaign. And still, for some reason they were going to bomb Baku.

Quote: Octopus

And how are Luttsov? A lot of profit came from the Russian people?

The floating battery that fired more than a thousand shells of 203 mm caliber at the enemy is a very good profit, it was probably great for the German Nazis to realize this.

[Octopus]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Definitely not the USSR.

I clarified there))

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Then the return of the Crimea, also an attack, according to your logic.

It’s scary to say something about propaganda under Crimea under propaganda. And according to the logic of the Romanian government, yes, it turned out very unpleasantly.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

this happened before the Bessarabian campaign.

This happened between the Pact and the campaign, when the USSR began to behave strangely.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

1940 Romania agreed to transfer to the use of the Germans

When the issue of bombing ceased to be relevant, in any case, for France.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Floating battery that fired at the enemy more than a thousand shells of 203 mm caliber

You really don’t understand how miserable this is, 200 tons of shells for the war? This is not to say in what condition the SLA of this armored pontoon was.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

It was probably great to the German Nazis to realize this.

The Nazis are delighted with what the Baltic Fleet is doing, in the name of success of which, including the USSR, it got involved in the Winter War.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Octopus

And how are Luttsov? A lot of profit came from the Russian people?

A lot, I suppose. The Soviet people "... used both food, and weapons, and equipment obtained under Lend-Lease. What if not only Tirpitz, but also Luttsov, went out on the way of convoys with these goods ...?" "
... The fate of the cruiser "Luttsov" is interesting. Fearing the outbreak of war with the Germans, we towed this unfinished ship out of Germany as soon as the Germans launched it - without a power plant, rudders and propellers. By the beginning of the war, they did not have time to finish building, and he defended Leningrad as a non-self-propelled floating battery "Petropavlovsk". Nevertheless, "Petropavlovsk" turned out to be the most active large surface ship of the USSR Navy. When defending Leningrad and breaking the blockade, he first out of his four, and after the failure of one gun - from three 203-mm main-caliber guns, having shot the barrels, fired 1946 shells at the Germans. It just so happened, but the actual Soviet battleships did not shoot at the Germans and ammunition: "Paris Commune" (Black Sea) used up 1159 shells from its 12 main-caliber guns; October Revolution (Baltic) - 1140 rounds; Marat (Baltika) - 1529 rounds. In total, only the cruiser Maksim Gorky, which out of its 9 180-mm guns fired 2311 shells at the Germans and Finns, covered the Petropavlovsk indicator "(Yu.I. Mukhin).

[strannik1985]

Precisely, with might and main "preparing" lol

But what about.

In total, after the formation of the territorial military system, about 1934 thousand reservists were called up for military training and exercises in less than five years (39–200). Including about 180 thousand, it was in the army environment of the territorial military system. It does not take into account the additional teachings of the autumn of 1939, produced in the era of world shelling, as a kind of preparation for war. In addition, up to 150-180 thousand “trainings” (that is, the call of one member to the training camp, and the same person could attend the training camp twice, for example, in different years) was carried out in the training system of the national guard.

(c) Slon-76 LJ
Those. annually, on average, 200% of the number of peacetime ground troops were called up for training.
And in Finland since 1923 there was an interesting military doctrine (VK-1):

The first version of the plan, VK 1, assumed an extremely favorable situation for Finland, in which the armed forces of the Soviet Union also fought against European countries throughout its western borders and did not have enough forces to oppose the Finnish army. In this situation, the Finns were ready not only to defend their independence, but also to take away some lands from their mighty eastern neighbor ...
To the north of Ladoga, the Finnish units had to go on the offensive from the Pitkäranta-Suojärvi area with the task of reaching the level of Tuloks-Vedlozero-Syamozero.
Farther north, the Finns were supposed to go on the offensive from the Lieks-Kuhmo region, capture the Rebols and be ready to develop an offensive on Rugozero. In the Suomussalmi region, Finnish ski teams were also supposed to cross the border, capture Voknavolok and continue the offensive in the depths of East Karelia and on the Murmansk railway.

(c) Bair Irincheev. The stunned victory of Stalin. The assault on the Mannerheim line.

to whom, I wonder, she was "owed"?

Of course not, the USSR had reason to expect a stab in the back in the event of a major war (as it was in the first two wars with Finland).

[Olgovich]

Quote: strannik1985

Those. annually on average called 200% of the number peacetime troops.

But what about arithmetic?

Quote: strannik1985

And in Finland since 1923 there was an interesting military doctrine (VK-1):

the USSR also had doctrines for all occasions. How else

Quote: strannik1985

Of course not, the USSR had reason to expect a stab in the back in the event of a major war (as it was in the first two wars with Finland).

There was no SNK, there were no wars. None . Everything is simple

[strannik1985]

But what about arithmetic? negative

Of the 37 thousand people of the total number of armed forces, 22-23 thousand are ground troops.

the USSR also had doctrines for all occasions. How else

There were, I write, the aggressor can be any state, regardless of size and other features.

There was no SNK, there were no wars. None . Everything is simple

However, he was and there were two wars in which Finland acted as an aggressor.

[Octopus]

Quote: strannik1985

However, he was and there were two wars in which Finland acted as an aggressor.

What are these?

[strannik1985]

What are these?

1918-1920, 1921-1922.

[Octopus]

Quote: strannik1985

1918-1920

What is 1918-1920? Before Nicholas was shot by the retinue general EIV, Mannerheim was an aggressor, or after?

Quote: strannik1985

1921-1922.

And what happened there, in 1921-1922? How, for example, did Comrade Chicherin speak about this? What was the name of the document signed following these events?

[strannik1985]

There were wars, two Soviet-Finnish wars. Say something you want?

[Octopus]

Quote: strannik1985

There were wars, two Soviet-Finnish wars. Say something you want?

That there were no Soviet-Finnish wars.
In the 18th, there were clashes between pro-German rebels and constitutional monarchists in the VKF and the surrounding area. The monarchists won, being even more pro-German than even the Bolsheviks (having called the German prince at once). Then the prince nafig, they became just constitutionalists.
In the 21st there was an exacerbation of partisanship with the involvement of "volunteers" and "vacationers". As a result of the events, an agreement was signed on strengthening the border regime in order to catch all volunteers, and not at all a peace treaty between the RSFSR and Finland.
The USSR appeared in 1922.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Octopus

In the 18th, there were clashes between pro-German rebels and constitutional monarchists in the VKF and the surrounding area.

Yeah, the intra-Finnish struggle of groups ... in the territory of another state.
And if there was no war, then what does it mean decision of the Finnish government to declare war on Soviet Russia? That is, the government of Finland did not declare war on Soviet Russia? And the Finns, like after a quarter of a century, did not have to be knocked out from Petrozavodsk and from Svir? In Ladoga in 1919, even a landing operation was carried out - and almost in the same place as in 1944.
And if there was no war, then on what basis was the Tartu Peace Treaty of 1920 signed?

[Octopus]

Quote: Alexey RA

And if there was no war, then on what basis was the Tartu Peace Treaty of 1920 signed?

Uh, no.
Started war in May 1918. Kolchak, Denikin, even Nikolai is still alive. Against this background, the Bolsheviks are by no means drawn to Russia, especially for the general retinue with the German on the throne. In October 1920, Wrangel alone was in business, and he already oiled skates and sharpened skis.
So the situation in which the war began and the situation in which it ended is not equivalent.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Octopus

There were no Soviet-Finnish wars.

Soviet-Finnish wars in 1918-22 were. In all of them, the aggressor side is Finland with attempts to annex the Soviet territories, the creation of puppet governments, etc. The actions of the USSR in 1939 are a consequence of all this.

[Sugar Honeyovich]

Quote: Octopus

Before Nicholas was shot by the retinue general EIV, Mannerheim acted as an aggressor, or after?

Both before and after.

[Olgovich]

Quote: strannik1985

Of the 37 thousand people of the total number of armed forces, 22-23 thousand are ground troops.

Yeah, they were only called to the land ....

Quote: strannik1985

There were, I write, the aggressor can be any stateso, regardless of size and other features.

So the Finns, like everyone else.

Quote: strannik1985

However, he was and there were two wars in which Finland acted as an aggressor.

Let me remind you. that immediately after recognition of independence, the SNK sent red detachments, weapons and money there to help the cr. Finns.
Ahhh, this is not aggression. this is international help

2. aggressor against ... what? The self-proclaimed SNK had .... legal boundaries?
WHO recognized them when? Let me remind you that he had nothing to do with Russia and its legal borders.
He considered his territory, Finns his. So they fought, along the entire perimeter, with Latvians, and Poles, and Romanians, etc. Illegal power is unrecognized bordersis an axiom.

[strannik1985]

Yeah, they were only called to the land ....

Basically:

When deployed in the fall of 1939, the strength was:
Ground forces, including the civil front and the merging border guards: 294 thousand people
Fleet and coastal defense (including 8650 infantry units transferred from land forces): 33,2 people
Air Force and Air Defense: 10 thousand people.
Total 337 thousand people in the ground forces, Air Force, Navy, coastal defense, civil defense, armed local security and reserve units.

So the Finns, like everyone else.

So why treat them otherwise?

He considered his territory, Finns his

So, what will prevent the recognition of Soviet territory in the summer of 1941 and attack?

[Olgovich]

Quote: strannik1985

So why treat them otherwise?

with nothing

Quote: strannik1985

So, what will prevent the recognition of Soviet territory in the summer of 1941 and attack?

nothing. as the opposite.

[strannik1985]

nothing. as the opposite.

Of course. But could Stalin risk it?
I draw your attention to the fact that in a similar situation, Churchill did not bother to occupy Iceland.

[Octopus]

Quote: strannik1985

Churchill did not particularly bother to occupy Iceland.

He also almost had Norway.

One caveat. And you certainly do not see the difference between the occupation of Iceland and the joyful appearance, I don’t know, of the Estonian SSR?

[strannik1985]

The distance to KaUR is greater, i.e. more time to bring the SD into combat readiness. Petrozavodsk can take faster, force the Svir earlier, earlier connect with the Germans near Tikhvin, plus the Finnish military flotilla on Ladoga, as a result of the complete blockade of Leningrad with all the consequences.

Of course

[Olgovich]

Quote: strannik1985

Of course. But could Stalin risk it?

He acquired not only Vyborg, but also a cruel enemy, a participant in the blockade.

Or maybe there would be another Sweden. But these are already assumptions ...

Quote: strannik1985

I draw your attention to the fact that in a similar situation, Churchill did not bother to occupy Iceland.

No comparison and no similarity.

here is the occupation of Iran 41g yes, the same as Iceland

[strannik1985]

He acquired not only Vyborg

Sweden did not attack the USSR, did not intend to block the KBF in the Gulf of Finland, had no plans to occupy part of the USSR. There is a difference.

No comparison

The German presence in Iran does not directly threaten England, but the occupation of Iceland makes it possible to better block the Island, this is a direct threat to the Metropolis.

[Olgovich]

Quote: strannik1985

Sweden did not attack the USSR

The Finns never attacked the USSR, but the Swedes, many times on Russia, on the lands of Russia, as their own, the Swedes have always claimed. No difference.

Quote: strannik1985

The German presence in Iran does not directly threaten England, but the occupation of Iceland makes it possible to better block the Island, this is a direct threat to the Metropolis.

And?

[strannik1985]

Finns never attacked the USSR

They attacked, legal nuances do not cancel the actual state of affairs. The Finns were not afraid to attack the country many times stronger than themselves.

And?

The practice of that time.

[Olgovich]

Quote: strannik1985

They attacked, legal nuances do not cancel the actual state of affairs. The Finns were not afraid to attack the country many times stronger than themselves.

They emphasize the real state of things: there was no country then, SNK is not a country.

Quote: strannik1985

The practice of that time.

Yes, but the situations are completely different.

[strannik1985]

They emphasize

In the sense of an attempt to occupation was a legitimate act? Why is that?

Yes, but the situations are completely different

Than? By May 10, 1940, the probability of the German MAO in Iceland was near-zero, the British stopped the possible, not real, threat, just like the USSR did with Finland.

[Olgovich]

Quote: strannik1985

In the sense of an attempt to occupation was a legitimate act? Why is that?

1. in the sense that a hundred times stronger than the country was not
2. everyone has their own law

Quote: strannik1985

Than? By May 10, 1940, the probability of the German MAO in Iceland was near-zero, the British stopped the possible, not real, threat, just like the USSR did with Finland.

the British stormed ... Iceland and lost hundreds of thousands?
then yes, the same ...

[strannik1985]

1. in the sense that a hundred times stronger than the country was not

1. No matter, SNK is formally stronger than Finland.
2. Does this somehow justify the Finnish intentions?

then yes, the same ...

No, it’s easier and more effective to solve a problem now than to wait for it to mature. The approach is the same.

[Olgovich]

Quote: strannik1985

1. No matter, SNK is formally stronger than Finland.

no

Quote: strannik1985

Does this somehow justify the Finnish intentions?

of course. what are they worse?

Quote: strannik1985

No, it's easier and more effectively solve the problem nowwith what to wait for it to mature. The approach is the same.

let’s snoop around the USA then!

[strannik1985]

no

Yes, the number of spacecraft by the end of April 1918 was 196 thousand people.

Of course. Why are they worse?

In the sense of occupying someone else’s territory or violating the Tartu Peace Treaty? If once violated, then why another can not?

we snarl on the USA

Is it your sarcasm?
Finland could not destroy the USSR, and Iceland England.

[sergey Mikula]

During the Soviet-Finnish war, the West was preparing a “crusade” against the USSR. England and France were preparing to strike at Russia.

And, you can ask the author of this statement - was it not a coincidence, during the Soviet-Finnish war, that the West had no other, more important war for them — well, for example, with Hitler? As I understand it, elementary logic is not a strong point of the author.

[Alexey RA]

The Soviet intelligence, which did not have complete information about enemy defense, did a poor job.

Full - did not have. But the data at the end of 1938 was complete - and the main lines of defense, as well as their strength, were known to intelligence. And materials on the defense and the Armed Forces of Finland at Meretskov were.

PROSKurov. (...) By October 1, 1939, we knew that Finland had created three defensive lines and two cut-off positions on the Karelian Isthmus. The first defensive line, intended for cover units, was located directly near the border and rested on the flanks of Lake Ladoga and the Gulf of Finland, having a length of [more than 100]. Its fortifications consisted mainly of field-type structures: trenches, rifle, machine gun, artillery. There were anti-tank installations. There was also a small number of reinforced concrete, stone and wood-earth points, the total number of which reached 50. This is the so-called pre-field.
The second line of defense that was known to intelligence on October 1.
MEHLIS. What year is October 1st?
PROSKurov. On October 1, 1939, the Second defensive line began from the Gulf of Finland and passed through Remneti, Suma, Mälkel and other points and further along the northern coast of Suvantoyarvi. The general defense system was based on the creation of 13 nodal resistances, the so-called centers of resistance for the use of rivers and lakes.
The third defensive line was represented by a resistance unit in the Vyborg area, in which there were up to 10 artillery reinforced concrete points. By October 1, 1939, the presence of up to 210 reinforced concrete and artillery points in fortified areas was established. There were a total of 210 points. These points are plotted, there was an album, which, as Comrade himself said. Meretskov, all the time lying on his table.
MERETSKOV. But not one matched.
PROSKurov. Nothing like this. The reports of the commanders of the units and reconnaissance showed that most of these points are located where indicated on the diagram.
MERETSKOV. It's a lie. In the region of Sumy there are 12 points, Korn - 12.
PROSKurov. Ничего подобного.
MEHLIS. When was this material transferred to the General Staff?
PROSKurov. Until October 1, 1939. By this time, it was known that the Finns were launching large construction works.
It was known that the Finns launched large construction work in the summer of 1939. The agents reported that intensive construction was underway.
During the summer of 1939, various reports indicated that a large quantity of various building materials was being transported. We did not have exact data in the second half of 1939.
All available information about fortifications and barriers was developed, mapped in Leningrad and sent to military units.

© Meeting at the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks (b) of the commanding staff on the collection of experience in hostilities against Finland.

[kalibr]

Quote: hohol95

Are there any numbers of offers?

Exactly what is. When the question arose about the islands, and he did not arise yesterday, Japan offered us long-term credit and access to technology. How things are now I do not know. But such an offer did occur.

[Trapperxnumx]

The only really big plus of this war is that our army made all conclusions on the shortcomings in combat and organizational training, and the army really began to change for the better.

[1970mk]

England and France wanted to attack)))) The African countries also wanted to attack .. There was nothing about "Hoteliers" ... There was no such fact in fact))) And so ... gentlemen-comrades ... then everything at all they wanted to attack))) Listen to the songs of the USSR of the 30s ... And immediately everything will become clear ... The country did not sing by chance "... and soon the whole world will become part of the Soviet country ..."
And here is a typical song from the time of the war with Finland
Take us, Suomi is a beauty
Music: br. Pokrass Words: A. D'Actil

Pine tree on the slopes curls
Frontier mean outlook.
Take us, Suomi is a beauty
In a necklace of transparent lakes!

Tanks are breaking wide openings,
Airplanes circling in the clouds
Low sun of autumn
Lights the bayonet lights.

We used to fraternize with victories
And again we carry in battle
On the roads paved with grandfathers
Red star glory.

A lot of lies over the years
To confuse the Finnish people.
Open now trustingly to us
Halves of the wide gate!

Neither the jesters nor the fools scribblers
Do not embarrass your hearts anymore.
Your homeland was taken more than once -
We come to return it.

We come to help you deal
To pay with interest for shame.
Take us, Suomi is a beauty
In a necklace of transparent lakes!

[kalibr]

The low sun of autumn ... The war began on November 30, when snow was already everywhere in Finland. The authors, in theory, could not, did not have the right to write such a thing before the 30th, right? Only after. But after was WINTER !!! But you had to write, invent music, approve at the top ... That is, the authors knew that the war would be in the fall, or who ordered it from above?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: 1970mk

Listen to the songs of the USSR of the 30s ... And immediately everything will become clear ...

The problem is that the propaganda of the USSR and the military doctrine were in two non-intersecting planes. And one cannot judge the USSR’s plans for propaganda.

It should be noted that the propaganda speeches of political and military leaders contained somewhat different tasks than the military plans developed under their leadership. So, in 1936, K. Ye. Voroshilov proclaimed the slogan that the Red Army would wage war "with little blood and on foreign territory." But this statement did not prevent the approval of the next year’s plan of evacuation from areas that may be occupied by the enemy, and the next norms of losses for the year of the war, which had very little in common with the mentioned slogan. Therefore, when analyzing preparations for war, it is very important to separate political propaganda from the real direction of military planning.

© Melia A.A. Mobilization training of the national economy of the USSR.

They began to try to eradicate this schizophrenia only after the Socialist War, when it was officially announced to propagandists that there were no invincible armies, there could be a retreat in the war, the foreign proletariat and the peasantry would not rise with the outbreak of war. Moreover, Mehlis himself stated this at an official meeting of political workers, abundantly quoting the statement of the IVS at the meeting following the results of the Federation of Forces.

[Freeman]

And also in this war "was born", who later became famous, literary hero - Vasily Tyorkin.

Read more here:
http://ristikivi.spb.ru/albums/war-terkin-1940.html?photo=15

[Knell wardenheart]

With such a fantasy, it is necessary to write plots for Russian science fiction, not historical articles)
Let me remind you - Comrade Chamberlain was the prime minister in England, who went out of his way to prevent a war in Europe - he tried by hook or by crook to shut the throat of Germany, which before the war had far fewer troops than the pre-war USSR.
In France, a similar party was in power - if not the big conservatives. These people were more than satisfied with both the post-WW1 world order and the gradual withdrawal of world trade from the clutches of the Great Depression. Attacking some kind of communists - for them it would be an economic nightmare. Think for yourself! There was nothing easier than crushing the revolution at the beginning of the "intervention" or during the period when the White movement was still strong. This was not done. Then there was a period, before the NEP, when the USSR did not yet have a strong industry, and inside the union there were fermentations of peasants who were dissatisfied with the surplus appropriation system. And then - again - there was a great moment for an attack on the USSR, but this was not done. Take the 30s, terror, collectivization, repression and the purge of the military - a huge mass of people were VERY dissatisfied with the Soviet regime - which was certainly known to "who should" both in England and in the United States. However - and then - do not attack.
And here the author will argue that the Comrade Capitalists, with a specialist, were waiting for the moment when German revanchism would ripen in Europe, and in the east - Japanese militarism, threatening their colonies - that specialist would wait for all this, so that together with an aggressive-minded Finland, which had 250k soldiers, 30 tanks and 130 planes (!!!) to attack the USSR with some aggressive plans (reflections on what the hell are the two capitalist colonial empires that had enough resources and colonies - a piece of the USSR, as usual, outside the brackets).

Yes, be afraid of God)) That we all the time climbed somewhere with our world revolution and universal happiness, which few needed (in our version). There, behind the hillock, they were afraid of us, as they are afraid of a mad dog. We have ridiculed them of the bourgeoisie by coming and cutting everyone down as we did at home -that they expected that all we do is lead to this.
All these plans to bombard our oil-bearing regions near Baku, all these security treaties with Poland - ALL THIS had the same task that the concept of "nuclear deterrence" now carries.

[Octopus]

Quote: Knell Wardenheart

than they certainly knew "who should be" both in England and in the USA.

Unfortunately no. At least in the USA. It's hard to believe, but there is no strategic intelligence in the United States. OSS in the 42nd she also died.

[Knell wardenheart]

And I'm not talking about strategic intelligence in the case of the United States. For that historical period, they more than lacked the data that Americans brought to them in their beaks employed in the deployment / construction of enterprises in the USSR, migrants, the same Leo Trotsky willingly shared his thoughts with everyone who was interested in analyzing the situation.
The American state was strictly violet at the time of the USSR, but this cannot be said about individual representatives of the establishment and capital. They carefully monitored the situation during the revolution, after the revolution and then. This promised them money or risks.
Only in our country, politics exists in a somewhat separate plane from the boble - there they always knew that one essence was different.
In Britain, the situation was somewhat different - after all, Britain was bound by treaties with the neighbors of the USSR, was closer to us and could not help but worry about the prospects for Europe. Strategic analytics was put there much better, all the same, England kept its balance of forces and alliances for centuries ..

[Octopus]

Quote: Knell Wardenheart

everyone who was interested in analyzing the situation.

There were no people interested in analytics in the States.

Quote: Knell Wardenheart

brought them in the beak the Americans are deployed

There was no one to work with them. You imagine that the FBI performed the functions of the NKVD, this is not so.

Quote: Knell Wardenheart

individual representatives of the establishment and capital

Some representatives were not interested in regime change. As now they are not interested.

Quote: Knell Wardenheart

Strategic analytics was put there much better, all the same, England kept for centuries on the balance of forces and alliances.

Exactly. Stalin and Hitler completely broke the continuous English buffer zone from sea to sea, and the Americans, without understanding anything at all, did not allow even a part of it to be restored when there was such an opportunity.

[Knell wardenheart]

Well, yes, there was no analytics .. and the largest capitals and the distribution of grants with the financing of various "international" organizations, even then, probably, were carried out exclusively out of the kindness of their soul?) You probably imagine the American capitalists as they were painted in "Crocodile" - such chubby bad guys in cylinders?) Since the Civil War (if not earlier), these guys had a wonderful tradition - to collect information. Any change in the situation in the world, where it was possible to sell something, it was their BREAD. Without an idea of ​​the situation - how could they judge where they should invest and where they shouldn't? Do you think American capital was humbly waiting for the appearance of foreign intelligence, frantically pushing its foreign assets on the principle of "how the card falls"? Of course they bought information, had agents, etc.
At that point in time, the USSR was looming over Europe as a big red monster, and it would be absurd to ignore this fact, being in idleness and "lack of interest in analytics".

[Octopus]

Quote: Knell Wardenheart

At that point in time, the USSR was hovering over Europe as a big red monster, and it would be absurd to ignore this fact, being in idleness and "lack of interest in analytics"

You, like most Soviet authors, imagine the Americans as a kind of comrade Stalin, but with American resources. This was completely wrong.

As for the dofig of clever American capital, a little earlier than the events of Comrade Comrade. Lazaro Cardenas, a big fan of Comrade Trotsky, traveled a gringo from his native Mexico with a boot in the ass, distributed land to peasants, factory workers, (American) oil - his native party. A little later than the events discussed, the same trick, only without oil, was done by Comrade Castro.

[kalibr]

Octopus! There is such a scientific journal "USA and CANADA", where very interesting articles (with links to documents, of course) on the history of the USA are published. I constantly use it, and I can briefly say that they all knew very well and it was from those who returned from the USSR, as well as the journalists who worked for us, that they were constantly invited to the committees of the Congress, where they reported what and how. You read this magazine, there are many interesting things.

[Octopus]

Quote: kalibr

they were constantly invited to congressional committees, where they reported

Oh my God, also Congress. This is who was engaged in foreign policy with us, while Cordell Hull sent the Jews back to Germany.

[Operator]

Quote: Alexey RA

Russia is the East Asian sword of England and America against Japan

Adik really went to the roof - Russia in relation to Japan is a West Asian country

[Charlie]

Quote: Fibrizio

Given that France and England were the first to declare war on Germany, it is incorrect to put the question as you wrote, to put it mildly.
And supporters of the author of this article-falsification (a whole cycle of jingoistic articles, I would say "ideological") forget about the reasons why England and France declared war on Germany.
From their point of view, the "West" was preparing to attack the USSR.
The USSR itself gave Germany the opportunity to go to its borders. If the USSR declared war on Germany at 39, I strongly doubt that the consequences would be so catastrophic. Moreover, Germany would never attack Poland if the USSR had taken a stand against it.

Other articles appeared on this site (non-engrafted authors), analytics were carried out there on the subject of the capabilities of the USSR and Germany in the pre-war period, and the comparison just said that in the mid 30s the USSR was even more technical and equipped in Germany in some areas, every year the postponement just gave odds to the Germans.

Undoubtedly, everyone is smart in hindsight, but by agreeing to divide Poland, we contributed to what happened to Europe. And our goals were not peaceful. We wanted a piece of new land with a population opposed to communism and pushing the borders.


In general, it would be extremely interesting that other authors of our favorite resource, writing articles on historical topics, would give an article an analysis of such arts. That is to say, under the cut of an authoritative opinion. Such techniques are sometimes practiced in VO. Reading this is exciting and interesting. Since usually the authors do not stoop to the level of the yellow press, but work according to the principle "criticize - suggest".

I am for the analysis of Samsonov's articles by other authors to appear on the VO.

I don’t know if in the general list of publications here, the surname of the aftar would be indicated immediately, I would not go to Samsonov’s publications. And so you come in, attracted by an interesting headline, well, and the author apparently just gets babosiki for views. Even if you do not read this nonsense

[Catfish]

T-100 participated in the Finnish company ... did not know. Thanks to the author.
True, there were something besides new tanks:

Our special forces demolition men on the Mannerheim Line. As far as I know, this was the first ever use of the Fedorov assault rifle in combat.

[Octopus]

Quote: Sea Cat

T-100 participated in the Finnish company ... did not know.

All three TT projects participated there, including the KV-1.

[Catfish]

I generally believed that this monster was shown only at the parade. I know about the participation of KV.

[Bagatur]

Finnish stupidity was obvious. At the talks in the autumn of 1939, Moscow requested less than 3 thousand square meters. km and even in exchange for twice as much territory, economic benefits. But the war only led to losses, and the USSR took about 40 thousand square meters. km, without giving anything in return. As the ancients said, “Woe to the vanquished!” [B] [/ b]
It is important that they defended their country! If you gave away what the Stalin-Krel Isthmus wanted, in fact, the Manerheim Finland line became defenseless at once! What guarantees didn’t come with her later as with the Baltic states?

[Charlie]

And what was Finland’s plan of attack on the USSR? Well, like Barbaross’s plan, did the Finns have such a plan?

[kalibr]

Quote: Sea Cat

it was the first ever

Not the first! The first in the 16th on the Romanian front. Second in Finland in the 19th ...

[Catfish]

But weren't the automatic rifles on the Romanian front? If you mean Izmaylovtsev.
Vyacheslav, where did the information about Finland come from in the 19th year? In serious work on the history of weapons, I have not met her. Share it.

[kalibr]

Konstantin! Offhand I will not say. But I remember very well that (not in the 19th !!!), and in January 1922, the Finnish communist Toivo Antikainen was appointed commander of a company of 200 skier-shooters, students of the International School of Red Commanders, whose task was to repel the White Finns invasion of Soviet Russia . This campaign, which later gained legendary fame on both sides of the border, in Kiimajärvi, was part of the Red Army’s fighting to suppress the Karelian uprising. Antikainen's detachment captured the enemy camp and wagon train on January 20, 1922, which led to the suppression of the uprising. Antikainen returned as a hero and continued to work in a military school. His military career was interrupted when he was transferred to the structure of the Comintern in 1924, and so his men were armed with Fedorov’s assault rifles. The source must be searched ...

[Unknown]

better than Comrade STALIN, no one has yet spoken about the causes of the Soviet-Finnish, so let's see, I’ll give a brief excerpt here ......................... .... We finally knew that Alexander I waged war for two years and conquered Finland, conquered all areas.

Exactly the same stories happened with the Russian troops then, as they are now: they surrounded, captured, the headquarters withdrawn, the Finns surrounded, taken prisoner - the same as it was. We knew this whole thing and believed that perhaps the war with Finland would last until August or September 1940, which is why, just in case, we took into account not only the favorable, but also the worst, and from the very beginning of the war began to prepare bridgeheads in five directions. If the war lasted and if any neighboring state intervened in the war, we had in mind to set in these directions, where there are already ready bridgeheads for 62 infantry divisions and 10 in reserve, 72 in total, to discourage the interference in this matter. But this did not come to this. We had only 50 divisions. The reserve remained the reserve - 10 divisions, but this is because our troops did a good job, defeated the Finns and pressed the Finns. From the beginning of the war, we posed two questions to the Finns - choose one from two: either make big concessions, or we will spray you and you will get the Kuusinen government, which will gut your government. So we said to the Finnish bourgeoisie. They preferred to make concessions so that there was no popular government. You are welcome. The affair is amicable, we made these conditions because we received quite serious concessions that Leningrad fully secured from the north, south, and west, and which threaten all the vital centers of Finland ......... .......... this is an excerpt from a speech following the Finnish war.

[Alexander Greene]

About the alleged "unsuccessful actions of the Red Army,
The author cited a version of the Khrushchev era, but the reality is different, it can be found in the report of I.V. Stalin at a meeting of the commanding officers of the Army Paint on April 17, 1940.

There was no underestimation of the enemy. The leadership of the USSR understood that it would be difficult to defeat such a serious force as the Finns, especially with such a line of fortifications. Stalin clearly stated in his report that the war was supposed to be held until August or September 1940, i.e. expected for 9 months.

In addition, there was a danger of the immediate entry of Western countries on the side of Finland. Therefore, Stalin and Voroshilov, understanding the political situation, did not increase the grouping of Soviet troops, the hostilities began only with the forces of the Leningrad District. Thus, they outplayed Manerheim along with his support of the world bourgeoisie.

Everyone understood that it was impossible to advance with weak troops against an obviously strong enemy. Therefore, the Russian offensive reassured both the Finns and the world bourgeoisie. After a short resistance, as expected, their units retreated beyond the fortifications and prepared to repel the assault, which began, in all seriousness, as the command set the task, before the troops. Of course, the Finnish defense was not broken. All laughed at the Red Army: tiny Finland piled on the Bolsheviks! And our military leaders were depressed — the task of the Commander-in-Chief was “not fulfilled.”

But that was not so. The primary attack was intended to open the enemy’s defenses, which was done, because the assault was serious, the Finns also fired from all means. As a result, the entire system of Finnish defense was opened. I.V. Stalin explained this in a report as follows; “We did not reveal the cards that we have another goal - to create a bridgehead, to carry out reconnaissance. If we had revealed all the cards, we would have dampened our army units. The task was this "

At the first stage, no one planned to break into the defense of Mannerheim’s troops. The first task was to use the forces of the troops of the Leningrad district of bridgeheads to concentrate troops already heading for the fighting area from the internal districts and to reconnaissance of the enemy defense system.

Thus, what we see as the initial failures of the Red Army is actually a brilliantly completed operation to create bridgeheads and open the enemy’s defense system.
The reconnaissance was carried out in battle, because there were no other opportunities to reconnoiter the strength of the fortified area. It’s impossible to make out disguised pillboxes from the air. From the frontier post, too, nothing is visible, it is not realistic to conduct front-line reconnaissance in a sector saturated with troops. But it was necessary to decide what means were needed to break through the defense, and where to aim the guns. And the opening of the defense system made it possible to accurately calculate the necessary forces and means,

And while Europe applauded "brave" Finland, troops and artillery were brought up from the internal districts of the USSR, Kaganovich ensured the secrecy of the transportation. Not a single spy noticed anything unusual.
On January 7, the Northwest Front was created. All the available KB tanks were concentrated in the main area, and on February 11, heavy artillery was rolled out for direct fire and they began to hammer concrete bunkers.

During the day, the Mannerheim Line was broken through for 7 km.
By March 1, the entire line was destroyed, Vyborg was surrounded on March 5, and the Anglo-French allies began to urge the Finns to hold out for at least one and a half to two months in order to send reinforcements. But it was too late ....

[Thunderbolt]

Quote: Alexander Green

Yes, and our commanders were depressed — the task of the Commander-in-Chief was “not fulfilled”

Stalin was not any commander in chief at that time.

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: Alexander Green

Thus, what we see as the initial failures of the Red Army is actually a brilliantly completed operation to create bridgeheads and open the enemy’s defense system.

I'm sorry, of course, but what can you call the encirclement of our divisions - a brilliantly executed operation? The fact that after the fact they have already tried to save face is, of course, understandable ... But maybe it's worth it more carefully in our time, with these "brilliantly executed" ones?

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Trapper7

Quote: Alexander Green

Thus, what we see as the initial failures of the Red Army is actually a brilliantly completed operation to create bridgeheads and open the enemy’s defense system.

I'm sorry, of course, but what can you call the encirclement of our divisions - a brilliantly executed operation? The fact that after the fact they have already tried to save face is, of course, understandable ... But maybe it's worth it more carefully in our time, with these "brilliantly executed" ones?

To lull the vigilance of the Finns and their patrons, the order was given to the troops: to attack, so the battles were serious, and in such cases everything happens, and encirclement and losses. , and the Finns would hardly reveal their defenses.

As a result, the troops under the command of Kliment Efremovich defeated Finland in three months, while they were planning to fight 9 months. And Suvorov-Rezun generally wrote. about this, that American military experts modeled these hostilities on a computer and came to the conclusion that it is impossible to take the Mannerheim line.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Alexander Green

But that was not so. The primary attack was intended to open the enemy’s defenses, which was done, because the assault was serious, the Finns also fired from all means. As a result, the entire system of Finnish defense was opened.

The Finnish defense system in the direction of the main attack was not opened as a result of reconnaissance in battle.

The exact location of the "Millionaire" was revealed to the squad commander Parminov at the end of December, during one of the night reconnaissance raids-searches behind the line of the Finnish trenches. An attempt to destroy the discovered pillbox with large-caliber artillery did not bring any noticeable damage to the pillbox. The fortress remained invulnerable.

But the result of "reconnaissance in force" was the bringing into full combat capability of 20 tank brigades - a heavy tank brigade was killed in less than a week of battles without any results.
This is how the "reconnaissance in force" performed by the Red Army looked like:

On December 17, 1939, the brigade was tasked with: supporting the advance of the units of the 50th sk (123 and 138 sd) during the attack of the fortified Khotinen nodes and a height of 65,5. The chief of staff of the 138th SD reported to the headquarters of the corps that "there is no fortification area ahead, the enemy is running." Without checking this information, the command canceled the previously assigned five-hour artillery preparation and launched an attack on the infantry of the 123rd SD with the support of the 91st TB. However, during the offensive, our troops ran into a powerful fortified enemy defense strip and were met with strong artillery-machine-gun and mortar fire. The infantry of the 138th SD, which had no experience in interacting with tanks, was cut off from them, suffered heavy losses and eventually partially lay down, and partially retreated to its original positions.
The 91st TB penetrated deep into the enemy’s defense beyond the first and second line of fences, 450-500 m, came under heavy artillery fire and, unsupported by infantry, retreated to the starting line, suffering heavy losses. On the evening of the same day, the brigade commander reported to the headquarters of the 50th Rifle Corps: “After the battle on December 17, the 91st tank battalion was not operational. 7 people were killed, 22 injured, including the commander of the battalion Major Drozdov, 16 were missing, including the commissar of the battalion Dubovsky. Of the 21 T-28 tanks sent to attack, 5 vehicles arrived at the assembly point, 2 were delivered to SPAM. The rest of the materiel needs repair, which is done. 4 cars burned down on the battlefield, 1 turned upside down with tracks in the anti-tank ditch, 1 - no one knows where. During an attack, VET up to 5 pcs., Bunkers up to 3 pcs. Due to the fact that the infantry did not go and stayed behind the gouges, which are north of the height of 65,5 to 500 m, this area is not occupied by our troops.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Alexey RA

But the result of "reconnaissance in force" was the bringing into full combat capability of 20 tank brigades - a heavy tank brigade was killed in less than a week of battles without any results.

This does not detract from the result of reconnaissance in battle .. It is impossible to postpone the war until a powerful group is built up, the patrons of Finland could enter the war. Time won here - the cannons that were ready to bring to the line were ready for the goal. they gouged all the pillboxes. Rezultat: the goals of the war were achieved in 3 months instead of 9,.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Alexander Green

This does not detract from the result of reconnaissance in battle ..

The result of reconnaissance in battle is a ground armored brigade, a ground armored rifle division, one bunker of flank fire was opened. To open the second bunker, only one reconnaissance job was required.

Quote: Alexander Green

It is impossible to postpone the war until a powerful group is built up; the patrons of Finland could enter the war.

Wait a minute ... You just wrote that:

Quote: Alexander Green

In addition, there was a danger of the immediate entry of Western countries on the side of Finland. Therefore, Stalin and Voroshilov, understanding the political situation, did not increase the grouping of Soviet troops, the hostilities began only with the forces of the Leningrad District.

That is, you can’t beat the Finns right away, and you can’t drag out the war?
In fact, just a quick defeat of Finland for the USSR was the best option - the Allies simply would not have time to intervene. And so we almost reached the Allied landing in Narvik.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Alexey RA

That is, you can’t beat the Finns right away, and you can’t drag out the war?

You do not understand me. Read the report of Stalin, he clearly explains there why it was impossible to wait until the Red Army built up a powerful group.

[Alexander Greene]

Quote: Thunderbolt

Quote: Alexander Green

Yes, and our commanders were depressed — the task of the Commander-in-Chief was “not fulfilled”

Stalin was not any commander in chief at that time.

And I did not write about this. In the Finnish War, the Commander-in-Chief was Voroshilov. If you remember, then Stalin was The Supreme commander in chief.

[ABM]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

"8 guns, which had the designation" 20,3-cm SK С / 34 ", and the remaining from the cruiser were converted into railway guns. They were installed on 8-axle railway platforms with carriages from 210-mm guns" Peter Adelbert ", which remained since World War I. TTX guns: caliber - 203 mm; barrel length - 12,1 m; installation weight - 86,1 tons; gun weight - 20,7 tons; projectile weight - 122 - 124 kg; muzzle velocity - 925 m / s; rate of fire - 1 shot in 2 minutes; firing range - 38 km. " about such artillery we are talking about.

8 guns (two in 1940, four in 1941, two in 1942) intended for the heavy cruiser Lutzov sold in the USSR were installed on the machines of Prince Adalbert - but they were never transferred to Finland, captured by the allies in Normandy in 1944 year.

[razved]

By the way, the Poles also fought on the side of the Finns, who managed to escape from the Germans in September 39th. And our future allies, and now "partners", began to send them to Finland, already from October of the same year ... As for the Swedes, they cannot forgive us Charles XII ...

[1970mk]

And to be honest? The West ... was preparing a Crusade against the USSR? And the USSR was not preparing for the campaign "The whole country did not sing songs like" ... SOON THE WHOLE world will become one Soviet republic "?