Madsen-Rasmussen and Smith-Condit rifles: small steps towards excellence


The Madsen-Rasmussen M1896 rifle, presented at the U.S. automatic rifle contest before World War I. View of the receiver on the right


Weapon from around the world. One of the first automatic rifles, adopted and especially used in the First World War, was, as you know, the famous BAR - the M1918 rifle designed by John Moses Browning. Created by him in 1917, under the cartridge .30-06 Springfield (7,62x63 mm), it was intended primarily for arming the US Expeditionary Force, which had fought in Europe before with Shosh and Hotchkiss machine guns. But she fought there a little and really managed to prove herself later, namely on the battlefields of World War II, as well as in the Korean War and the "dirty war" in Vietnam. Of course, it is difficult to call it a classic rifle, since it is very heavy and, being equipped with a two-legged gun, is more suitable for the role of a light machine gun. In this capacity, it was subsequently used just like that, but the fact that it was a “rifle” was fixed forever in its name. This is all known and there is nothing new in it.

Of interest is the atmosphere in which this weapon was created, that is, whether Browning’s development was a unique phenomenon or if there was already something in this area, that is, some samples of such rifles were already created, and he could familiarize themselves with them, see advantages and disadvantages and then strengthen the former and get rid of the latter already in its own design.

And here it turns out that even in the years preceding World War I, the military department of the U.S. Army was considering the possibility of adopting a self-loading rifle, and this despite the fact that they generally already had a Springfield 1903 military rifle. However, in the following 1904 and then again in 1909, this department developed and published a testing procedure for new semi-automatic rifles that could be submitted for its consideration. That is, the designers got at their disposal all the performance characteristics of their future rifles and they had only to tighten their heads and create something that as fully as possible corresponded to these requirements. And, by the way, between 1910 and 1914 it was in the United States that seven different models of self-loading rifles were created and tested. That is, work in this area was quite intense. Among these seven samples were the Madsen-Rasmussen, Draise, Benet-Mercier, Khelman, Bang rifle, a sample from the Rock Island Arsenal and one of the Standard Armz company samples.


Bang rifle, appearance and device. (Photo from the instruction manual)

Of all this number, two foreign rifles attracted attention. This is the Bang rifle and the Madsen-Rasmussen rifle. The Bang rifle was the first successful semi-automatic rifle presented to the U.S. Department of War. It was developed by the Dane Soren Hansen in 1911. Two copies were sent to the Springfield arsenal for testing, where they made a very positive impression on his staff. Both rifles functioned very well, despite some flaws discovered. In particular, in order to meet the weight requirement, that is, be no heavier than the Springfield 1903 rifle, Hansen made a very thin barrel and removed a maximum of wood from the forearm. All this led to the fact that the trunk began to quickly overheat, and this, in turn, led to carbonization of the inner surface of the box.


US Patent Office Patent Documentation

The rifle had a very unusual automation system. On its barrel in the muzzle was a sliding cap connected by a rod to the bolt. Powder gases, leaving the barrel, pulled this cap forward, and the shutter, accordingly, due to this action, first opened, and then went back. Further, a return spring compressed by this movement came into play, and the whole cycle was repeated.


Protective cap on the barrel. At that time was considered an important affiliation.

As for the Madsen-Rasmussen rifle, it can rightfully be called the mother of all automatic rifles in general. Back in 1883, the Danish army officer W. Madsen, together with the director of the Copenhagen arsenal J. Rasmussen (he later changed this name to Bjarnov) began to create a fundamentally new type of rifle, which was supposed to have automatic loading and reloading. In 1886, they completed the development of the project and offered it to the Danish army.


Madsen-Rasmussen rifle M1896. Left view. (Royal Arsenal of Denmark, Copenhagen)

The rifle was developed under the unitary cartridge 8x58 mm R from the Krag-Jorgensen rifle, which had sufficiently high characteristics, and also lacked the shortcomings of cartridges equipped with black smoke powder.


And so the M1888 rifle looked inside. And how could all this work?

The designers proposed a new and very original automation scheme, which used the recoil force of the barrel during its short course. Of course, in our today's opinion, their system looked really quite unusual, but it was quite functional and even got its characteristic name: Forsøgsrekylgevær (“Experimental recoil rifle”).


Madsen-Rasmussen rifle M1896. (Royal Arsenal of Denmark, Copenhagen)

The main part of the rifle was a metal receiver, to which the barrel was movably attached in front and the wooden forend was motionless. In its rear part there was a frame on which the trigger mechanism was mounted and the buttstock was attached with a straight neck. The right wall of the receiver had the form of a door, which was tilted sideways and back to service the parts inside, and in the closed position it was fixed with a latch. The hole for ejecting spent cartridges was located below, and was designed in the form of a triangular pipe. Ready-to-use cartridges were in a holder that was inserted into the grooves of the receiver shaft. Due to their own weight, they descended into the mine, where a special lever applied the next cartridge to the delivery line. The authors did not provide for any springs that facilitated the delivery of cartridges into the receiver, since they believed that the simpler the design, the better.

However, this could not be said about the automatic equipment of the Forsøgsrekylgevær rifle, since it also used a shutter swinging in the vertical plane, and at the same time recoil the moving barrel. Therefore, on the inner surface of the receiver there were a lot of all profiled grooves that interacted with the protrusions and levers, which, firstly, complicated the very design of this rifle, and secondly, complicated (and made it expensive!) Its production. By the way, her trigger system provided firing with only single shots. And only later, when on the basis of this rifle made the "Madsen machine gun", he was changed so that he could shoot continuously.


M1888 rifle. Pay attention to a very thin and short bayonet. And he could not be different, since otherwise he would have upset the balance of the barrel and the operation of automation. (Royal Arsenal of Denmark, Copenhagen)

The designers developed two samples of their M1888 and M1896 rifles, and both of them were adopted and limited, not in mass quantities, used in the Danish army until the mid-thirties of the last century, and only then were decommissioned due to their complete and hopeless obsolescence, as moral as well as physical. Nevertheless, both designers, not stopping there, offered their rifle to several countries at once, and even, including, as we see, in the USA.


The rifle "Smith Condit." Left view. Looks pretty elegant, right?

But the rifle presented by Standard Arms, also known as Smith-Condit, named after its developers Morris Smith and company secretary V.D. Condita was her own, American design. The company, founded in 1907, had high hopes for it. With a capital of a million dollars, she acquired a factory that planned to hire 150 workers and produce 50 rifles a day (source: Iron Age magazine, May 23, 1907).


One of the drawings of the patent application for the Smith Condit rifle from 1906 (US Patent Office)



One version of a rifle signed by Morris Smith from 1906 (US Patent Office)

But all these hopes did not come true. The reason is military tests. According to their results, the rifle was modernized, however, the “Model G”, produced in the amount of several thousand units, was possible to sell only in the civilian arms market. The military did not take her.


Smith Condit Right

She was tested twice in 1910 and rejected both times, primarily because they considered her too difficult for military service.


Receiver

As for its design, it had a classic gas piston mechanism located under the barrel. The piston consisted of two parts, the latter having a U-shape and thus “flowed around” a five-shot magazine. When fired, the piston first unlocked the bolt, and it began to move backward, removing and pushing out the shot sleeve, and then, under the action of the spring, went forward, loading a new cartridge into the barrel. The rifle had a cut-off of the gas mechanism, which turned the rifle into ordinary weapons with a sliding bolt, which the military at that time considered very important. For 1910, such a decision should be considered unnecessarily complicated and in the future, by the way, it was decidedly abandoned.


Shutter handle

Interestingly, the test rifle was presented in three different calibres. Under the standard 7,62 × 63 mm springfield cartridge, 30/40 Krag-Jorgensen cartridge, and the third, 7 mm caliber. But in the end, this rifle “didn’t go” under any of them.


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  1. Theodore 14 January 2020 18: 46 New
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    Stronger and simpler than Mosinki - there’s no beast!
    1. kalibr 14 January 2020 19: 20 New
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      There is. Mauser M1898. It was forbidden for ordinary soldiers to separate the reflector cut-off on their own, but it was believed that the soldiers could insert it incorrectly and it would break. There was no such detail in the Mauser.
      1. Catfish 14 January 2020 22: 23 New
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        Good evening, Vyacheslav! hi I wanted to say the same thing, but I was too late with this. True, I wanted to point out that Mauser was not copied only by the Papuans, but the Trehline was somehow not very. Finland and Poland do not count for an obvious reason. And at Mauser the shutter was just a brilliant design, to this day they are copying. smile
        He looked at the photograph of Madsen-Rasmussen M1896 and immediately in his memory the Madsen handbrake arr. 1902 year. Almost twins, right? So later, Madsen realized his ideas in a pretty good machine gun.

        By the way, no matter what they say about the "inertia" of the tsarist government, Russia was the first to adopt the light machine gun for the cavalry, or, as it was called then, the Madsen submachine gun.
        1. kalibr 15 January 2020 07: 45 New
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          Quote: Sea Cat
          Almost twins, right? So later Madsen realized his ideas in a pretty good machine gun.

          Exactly!
        2. Pane Kohanku 15 January 2020 11: 17 New
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          Hello everyone, I love ballet! drinks
          Ready-to-use cartridges were in a holder that was inserted into the grooves of the receiver shaft. Due to their own weight, they descended into the mine, where a special lever applied the next cartridge to the delivery line. The authors did not provide for any springs that facilitated the supply of cartridges inside the receiver, since they believed that the simpler the design, the better.

          I'm wondering how reliable this design was? what
          1. 3x3zsave 15 January 2020 15: 22 New
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            I love ballet!
            Eifman, damn it! laughing
            1. Catfish 15 January 2020 17: 12 New
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              Adolf? Sturmbannfuhrer SS and war criminal? For what? wassat
              1. 3x3zsave 15 January 2020 17: 57 New
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                Sturmbanfuhrer, he is Eichmann, and Boris Yankelevich Eifman is one of the leading choreographers in the world. laughing tongue
                1. Catfish 15 January 2020 19: 42 New
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                  Well it is necessary, but I didn’t know ... request
                  1. 3x3zsave 15 January 2020 19: 54 New
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                    It happens ... Mosin, perhaps, also did not appreciate Kshesinskaya's “Fuete”.
                    1. Catfish 15 January 2020 20: 18 New
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                      Kshesinskaya ... Matilda, if I am not mistaken? UK infantry tank. No, Anton, I won’t argue with you over tanks. FOOT - so FOOT ... request
                      1. 3x3zsave 15 January 2020 20: 26 New
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                        Do not need. Tanks are not my profile. That's about women, loot and the Holy Inquisition can be cut to the ears.
                      2. Catfish 15 January 2020 20: 32 New
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                        Tanks - not my profile

                        Well yes, not mine ... laughing And "crawling around the corner on a tropical island"? Don't be shy, buddy. drinks
                      3. 3x3zsave 15 January 2020 20: 41 New
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                        It was a collective image, which the mass unconscious (!) Brought to the point of absurdity, applying their own impressions of the commentary to the image of the author thereof.
                        To say it: nefig arrows translate! With whom you lead - from that and fly!
                      4. Catfish 15 January 2020 20: 46 New
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                        With whom you lead - from that and fly!

                        The quote is not accurate: "With whom you lead, you will be typed with that." drinks
                      5. 3x3zsave 15 January 2020 20: 54 New
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                        Of course not accurate. In the original: "With whom you will lead, from that you will fly" laughing
                      6. Catfish 15 January 2020 20: 59 New
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                        Well, here you are again about women ... What is it that you constantly have arrows on them being translated? "Without women, there is no life in the world, no!" (WITH) love
                      7. 3x3zsave 15 January 2020 21: 06 New
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                        "-Locksmith Sidorov, what are you thinking, looking at the adjustable spanner number 4?
                        -About a woman ...
                        -Why????
                        "And I always think of her."
                      8. Catfish 15 January 2020 21: 19 New
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                        "A Cossack to the war as needed,
                        And let the gray hair shine
                        A German, he’s a hell of an enemy, but a man,
                        And women are the last thing! "(C).
                      9. 3x3zsave 16 January 2020 07: 23 New
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                        "First of all, we will break the planes!"
                      10. Catfish 16 January 2020 07: 43 New
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                        "Well, and the girls? And then the girls!"
                      11. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 10: 00 New
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                        "Well, and the girls? And then the girls!"

                        Hussars! I am not Eifman, and even more so, not Eichmann. And not even Tchaikovsky. stop And I took the phrase about ballet from here, from Martinson:

                        Do any of you answer me, how reliable was the supply of cartridges under their own weight, without a spring? am or crookedly in a hurry take a gun in your hands - everything does not shoot? request
                      12. Catfish 16 January 2020 10: 16 New
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                        One of you will answer me how reliable the supply of cartridges was

                        Hi Nikolay hi But the devil knows how reliable it is, he has never used it, but I think that this is not a good idea. Dust, sand, snow, and shooting with a hand in a battle is problematic, you won’t follow every minute so that you have a steady shot. In the card cases installed on the machines, this feeding system was used, but there is a machine, a stationary device, so to speak. request
                        PS And the girls are all like strong, sort of model for the famous "Girls with a paddle." laughing
                      13. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 10: 44 New
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                        PS And the girls are all like strong, sort of model for the famous "Girls with a paddle."

                        You, dashing ulanam, if only to talk about girls, but sing songs! wink although from the Jamaican rum it still will not be .... drinks
                        In general, the figures are even thin for that time. what look at Soviet art before the war - Deineka, Samokhvalov, for example. There, their models were no match for modern young women kept from social networks! stop
                      14. Catfish 16 January 2020 11: 18 New
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                        Does Deineka have women? There are all proletarians. laughing

                        Although this is more like a whore.
                      15. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 12: 09 New
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                        There are all proletarians.

                        it seemed to me that his post-war painting is different from the pre-war one. what Obviously, less bias in propaganda. After the grief that the country suffered, it was apparently not up to the image of socialist achievements. Or he just changed with age and experience. request
                        Although this one is more ....

                        if it's cosplay, then the innocent. hi
                        I came across the vastness. The girl cosplay the Witcher's girlfriend. The model girl's name is Lada Lumos. Judging by the peculiarities of fortification, the background of the Novgorod Kremlin seems to be superimposed. hi
                      16. 3x3zsave 16 January 2020 19: 22 New
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                        The witch's friend Geralt's name was Jennifer, she smelled of gooseberries and lilacs.
                      17. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 19: 24 New
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                        The witcher Geralt's girlfriend, called Jennifer

                        I did not read. I just remembered my acquaintance with the video game, and recalled that Geralt was naughty with this girl too. lol
                      18. 3x3zsave 16 January 2020 19: 31 New
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                        If you believe Sapkovsky, he was not naughty, he loved. About like me.
          2. 3x3zsave 16 January 2020 10: 16 New
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            Perhaps not right, but was this principle not implemented by Gatling?
          3. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 10: 41 New
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            Perhaps not right, but was this principle not implemented by Gatling?

            Yes, but Konstantin is right - there is an easel system, and the store will not go anywhere. A rifle must be twisted in the hands. request
          4. Catfish 16 January 2020 15: 42 New
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            But this miracle is already 1895.

            Straight monster some of the "Mad Max". wassat
          5. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 16: 15 New
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            Straight monster some of the "Mad Max".

            EMNIP, card cases were equated with artillery, and they did not really understand how to use it on a gun carriage. Hence the sunset of such weapons.
            And how did mitrallosis differ from the card case (i.e. Gatling's scheme)? and what was the recharge system there? drinks
          6. 3x3zsave 16 January 2020 17: 18 New
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            What a sweetheart !!!
          7. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 17: 49 New
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            What a sweetheart !!!

            Kind people, for the first time in a year I ask serious questions, and you are attracted to rum and women! belay although, by definition, I should be in the Ban Loaf! request
            I immediately remembered Kozma Prutkov:
            Continue the attack boldly
            Though you have a bullet in the forehead -
            See how they get into business
            Glazenap and Butenop.

            And when they’ll hang up,
            Do not pass the ruddy women -
            Watch them dove
            Butenop and Glazenap.

            You yourself will figure out which one of you is! laughing
            Just shout at least Viktor Nikolaevich, call me to enlighten on the peculiarities of the work of mitraliasis, in contrast to the card case! fellow drinks
          8. 3x3zsave 16 January 2020 17: 58 New
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            and you are drawn to rum and women!
            And what else should we be pulled ???
            On the Pepsi and hermaphrodites? negative
          9. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 18: 04 New
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            And what else should we be pulled ???

            - Mom, mom, I want to go to the toilet!
            Mom (dreamily rolling her eyes): - And I ... to Paris ....
            I suddenly sharply realized who helped the good doctor Sigmund Freud invent psychoanalysis and reduce everything to the instinct of reproduction. wink yes, yes, it was locksmith Sidorov! laughing
            -Locksmith Sidorov, what do you think, looking at the adjustable spanner number 4?
            -About a woman ...
            -Why????
            -And I always think about her.


            Anton and Konstantin, what do you think when looking at Gatling's card holder? laughing i'm about the way to reload.
          10. Catfish 16 January 2020 18: 17 New
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            It recharges itself, the main thing is to turn the handle, and the rest is like in an economic meat grinder, with the only difference being that minced meat falls out of the meat grinder directly from the “muzzle cut”, and meat is stuffed at a distance from the card case with mitralosa. laughing soldier
          11. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 18: 31 New
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            and in a case with mitrales, meat is stuffed at a certain distance.

            Mitraliasis in my opinion - the block of trunks does not rotate. Unlike Gatling's card case, weapons with a rotating block of trunks. I can be mistaken, because, it seems, in our literature they are not especially disassembled. request
            The word "mitrallose" is French. Here is the French mitrallosis of Reffy. Trunks do not rotate.
            Question: 1. How did it charge. 2. did all the trunks fired in one gulp at the same time, or was there an alternate descent?

            we didn’t invent such systems, the Russian gambler Gorlova repeated the Gatling scheme (in 2018, I posted my photos of these weapons from the Artillery Museum on the forum, too lazy to look). drinks But just with Gatling, everything is clear, but no fig is not clear with this "organ." what
          12. Catfish 16 January 2020 18: 50 New
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            There, a certain cartridge was inserted into the breech with the number of cartridges, respectively, the number of trunks, each cartridge opposite its own barrel. Behind this "clip" with cartridges there was a unit with spring-loaded strikers also for the number of barrels and cartridges. Drummers rested on a steel plate and when the handle was rotated, holes in front of them alternately opened and a shot occurred. While one such cartridge was shot, the chargers filled the remaining "clips" with cartridges and the fire could be conducted almost endlessly. On some samples it was possible to shoot in one gulp.
          13. kalibr 16 January 2020 18: 59 New
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            Quote: Sea Cat
            Drummers rested on a steel plate and when the handle was rotated, holes in front of them alternately opened and a shot occurred.

            No not like this! This plate had a profiled top edge. The handle was twisted, the plate went down and the strikers went down in turn - and bang-bang!
          14. Catfish 16 January 2020 19: 01 New
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            Each inventor had his own idea. smile
          15. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 19: 03 New
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            No not like this! This plate had a profiled top edge. The handle was twisted, the plate went down and the strikers went down in turn - and bang-bang!

            Vyacheslav Olegovich, thank you very much! I know little about these weapons! hi
        3. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 19: 00 New
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          While one such cartridge was shot, the chargers filled the remaining "clips" with cartridges and the fire could be conducted almost endlessly. On some samples it was possible to shoot in one gulp.

          voooot! What I tried to learn from all of you! good drinks
      2. kalibr 16 January 2020 19: 01 New
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        I had an article about Reffy. And this time being in the Museum of the Army, I covered it all ...
      3. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 19: 26 New
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        And this time being in the Museum of the Army, I covered it all ...

        need to do the Schengen again .... what
        I did not talk about my visit to the military museum in Zakynthos? They came to him twice - closed! Well, the Greeks do not want to work, not a season, sir! request
  2. 3x3zsave 16 January 2020 18: 22 New
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    Actually, that sounds different.
    "I fucked up !!!!" And at this moment, you will realize your doom before a fait accompli! Let Armageddon come, but the child has made an irreversible and now we need to move, otherwise ... The easiest option: the child will notify all neighbors of this with acoustic power comparable to the “Jericho trumpets”. Worse when it trails off!
  3. 3x3zsave 16 January 2020 18: 42 New
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    And I’m talking about the era when women were beautiful, men were brave, distances were huge, pistols were great, and purses were thick.
  4. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 18: 46 New
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    women were beautiful, men were brave, distances were huge, pistols were great, and purses were thick

    16th century, time of conquistadors, discoveries, Eldorado and Lope de Vega? wink
  5. 3x3zsave 16 January 2020 18: 48 New
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    No, the end of the 19th. My favorite steampunk. Sorry, I can’t find this quote. Improvising, paraphrasing ...
  6. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 19: 49 New
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    women were beautiful, men were brave, distances were huge, pistols were great, and purses were thick

    then say when you were the women are huge, the men are great, the purse is brave, the pistols are thick, the distances are beautiful ...... what
  7. 3x3zsave 16 January 2020 20: 04 New
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    Uh, no! Yours, Nikolai, craving for matriarchy and tribal values, does not find a response in my Herz, e! laughing
  8. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 20: 06 New
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    Nicholas, a craving for matriarchy and tribal values, finds no response in my Herz, e!

    I don’t have any craving for matriarchy. We are just women, sir, I really adore them! wink (although it seems that you and Konstantin are far away .... what ) I will not switch to German; you, as usual, will call my pronunciation below any understanding. drinks
  9. 3x3zsave 16 January 2020 20: 19 New
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    Essessely! From your "ish", I feel the stirring of Siegfried and Hagen in the tombs! But Goethe and Heine, the poor fellow, weep because of the "Ramstein" accent, and others like them, the whole Bundesrepublic.
  10. Catfish 16 January 2020 19: 03 New
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    And I’m talking about the era when women were beautiful, men were brave, distances were huge, pistols were great, and purses were thick.

    And there were no tanks ... soldier
  11. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 19: 05 New
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    And there were no tanks ...

    during the Boer War, "armored vehicles" were used with a steam tractor towing armored trailers and a cannon. wink
  12. Catfish 16 January 2020 19: 20 New
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    They had an armored train there, with a ship’s gun and everything else with something armored.


  13. 3x3zsave 16 January 2020 19: 07 New
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    Of course, there were no tanks, but the "machine of differences" was already
  14. Catfish 16 January 2020 18: 20 New
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    "The battle is over, the Gentiles surrendered,
    Everyone has become a Russian slave,
    Look how out of breath
    Butenop and Glazenap. "(C)
  15. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 18: 35 New
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    But the enemies are retreating
    A chill penetrated their hearts -
    See how they scare
    Glazenap and Butenop.


    exactly about both of you! laughing drinks
  16. Catfish 16 January 2020 18: 35 New
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    Both that, and another as a matter of fact same. Mitraille translated from French means buckshot. And they all acted on the same principle, one fighter twisted the handle, the second aimed, and the third "poured" cartridges on top of the receiver. There were mitrales with a horizontal block of trunks and there were “gatlings” with a rotating one, the latter were much more progressive in the sense of homicide, for they gave a higher rate of fire.
  17. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 18: 39 New
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    There were mitraliasis with a horizontal block of trunks

    But how did the mechanism work? alternate descent? or simultaneous salvo?
    here is Nordenfelt. Clear. on top of the box with cartridges. Below is the lever. I’ll venture to suggest an action: the second number pulls the lever - the old cartridges flew out, the next batch of cartridges entered the barrels. Is the descent simultaneous?
  18. kalibr 16 January 2020 18: 57 New
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    Quote: Pan Kohanku
    Is the descent simultaneous?

    But how could it be simultaneous if the trunks were closed and opened in turn? There was a shaft with protrusions that alternately moved the bolts back and forth, and they removed the sleeves. That is, you turn faster - shoot faster, but not in one gulp!
  19. Catfish 16 January 2020 19: 00 New
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    Kohl, it’s not that anymore, it’s a ship’s gun exclusively against mine (torpedo) boats, Hotchkiss, if I’m not mistaken, though it worked all the same way. On the left, loader, descent at the gunner and it shoots only in one gulp.
  20. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 19: 09 New
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    Kohl, it’s not that anymore, it’s a ship’s gun exclusively against mine (torpedo) boats, Hotchkiss

    No, Konstantin, this is Nordenfelt, although the gun is a ship’s one. The Hotchkiss cannon was made according to the Gatling scheme - there the trunks rotated. Here is Hotchkiss from ArtMuseum. It seems that my photo is also 2018. drinks
  21. Catfish 16 January 2020 19: 23 New
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    Precisely, Nordenfeld, it was signed there, and he, with a smaller caliber, was also a "horizontal man".
  22. Catfish 16 January 2020 19: 28 New
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    This is no longer a "meat grinder", but in general a devil.

  23. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 19: 36 New
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    This is no longer a "meat grinder", but in general a devil.

    in the Middle Ages, a similar scheme was called an "organ" (especially for Anton, emphasized tongue ) or ribadekin. hi
    Why am I wound up? hi
    During the defense of Port Arthur, Captain Shmetillo created a local "miracle weapon." Several old Manlicher rifles, inherited from the Chinese, were taken, placed on a common frame, and special devices were brought to them, allowing them to simultaneously reload and shoot. That is, they recharged at the same time, and shot, as I understand it, also at the same time. So it became interesting to me, but according to what principle did mitrallise work - in one gulp or separately fired? request drinks and you do not judge strictly Pan Glass! laughing
  24. Catfish 16 January 2020 19: 40 New
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    in the Middle Ages, a similar scheme was called the "organ" (especially for Anton emphasized the tongue accent)

    Well, tell me why, just seeing the word organ immediately thought about Anton? laughing laughingdrinks So you can not explain ... good
  25. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 19: 43 New
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    Well, tell me why, just seeing the word organ immediately thought about Anton?

    it’s time to turn to a psychoanalyst (such a strong one, according to Freud!) to build with our associative ranks, father .... laughing drinks
  26. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 19: 14 New
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    On the left, loader, descent at the gunner and it shoots only in one gulp.

    From Warhead:
    Gatling’s serious competitor was the card-holders of the English company Nordenfeld, which arose on the basis of the patents of the Swede Palmkrantz from 1873. In these systems, trunks, from one to ten in number, were stationary, side by side. Each barrel had its own movable back-and-forth shutter and was fed from a separate store. For firing, the handle located on the right was used. the triggers were descent after locking in turn, with a slight delay - at the moment the handle came to its extreme forward position.

    Together - we are force! Look, what a mystery they figured out! good drinks
  27. Catfish 16 January 2020 19: 34 New
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    And all their efforts crashed about this simple device that no one wanted to recognize for a long time.
  28. Catfish 16 January 2020 19: 36 New
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    Until Cecil Rhodes tested it on the Lobengula warriors.
  29. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 19: 42 New
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    Until Cecil Rhodes tested it on the Lobengula warriors.

    the first machine gun delivered to Russia was examined by Alexander III. On the stand it is written that this machine gun is 11,43 mm. But opinions differ. There he is.
  30. Catfish 16 January 2020 19: 50 New
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    Dad Maxim with his baby. good fellow
  31. sharp-lad 14 February 2020 22: 25 New
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    But almost banned, for not humanity. smile
  32. Catfish 14 February 2020 23: 21 New
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    Here are the bastards !!! am
  33. Catfish 16 January 2020 15: 40 New
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    Dr. Richard Gatling patented his "revolving gun" in 1862. And then its release began - i.e. The meat grinder was appreciated immediately. smile
  34. 3x3zsave 16 January 2020 18: 45 New
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    Fu, Konstantin! How can, in a living person, mmm, poke a copulative organ!?! negative laughing laughing
  35. bubalik 15 January 2020 21: 27 New
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    crawling around the corner on a tropical island
    lol drinks so it was ,,,
    collective image that is massive
    the unconscious (!) brought to the point of absurdity, applying their own impressions
    what what words, I have not heard crying
    Tank, he is the tank tongue
  36. Catfish 15 January 2020 22: 08 New
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    Hi Seryoga! Dive into the trench, otherwise Anton will smear me with tracks on the asphalt and I will not see a tropical island with sultry mulattos in the sand. laughing drinks
  37. 3x3zsave 16 January 2020 07: 22 New
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    "Tick, lads! All bi back!" (WITH)
  38. Catfish 16 January 2020 07: 42 New
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    For every "bi-back" - our "back-fire!" drinks
  39. 3x3zsave 16 January 2020 08: 32 New
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    "Here the people went: you spit in the face - they’re climbing into a fight! request
  40. Catfish 16 January 2020 08: 48 New
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    "We gave him vodka, yeah ... We gave him vodka, our friend fell ..." (S. almost) drinks
  • Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 17: 05 New
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    Well it is necessary, but I didn’t know ...

    Adolf? Sturmbannfuhrer SS and war criminal?

    (with a German accent, barking): - And you, Jamaican partisan, will be puff-puff, schissen for such ignorance! soldier
    1. 3x3zsave 16 January 2020 17: 17 New
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      Weller in the "legends" has a wonderful story about Conan Young and Rudolf Abel.
      1. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 17: 41 New
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        Weller's "legends"

        I repent, did not read it. Generally. recourse
      2. 3x3zsave 16 January 2020 17: 51 New
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        No problem! I can make a program of "extracurricular reading" laughing Let's start, perhaps, (I'll scratch my turnip) ..., with Montaigne!
      3. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 17: 55 New
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        Let's start, perhaps, (I'll scratch my turnip) ..., with Montaigne!

        then with Rabelais and Cobalt Tungsten von Eschenbach. laughing by the way, the latter has the novel "Titurel". Funny word - somewhat reminiscent of Mikhail Starolatinsky’s free translation "the goal is to smack cicero." laughing drinks
  • Korsar4 15 January 2020 20: 01 New
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    "They want to show their education, and always talk about the incomprehensible" (c)
    1. 3x3zsave 15 January 2020 20: 08 New
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      "He didn’t study at gymnasiums. He graduated from the Page Corps." (WITH)
      1. Korsar4 15 January 2020 20: 17 New
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        "Not me, sovereign emperor
        From a cadet elevated to a junker? "(C).
        1. 3x3zsave 15 January 2020 20: 50 New
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          "But only the ashes of your cigarettes,
          This is the ashes of empires "(C)
          1. Korsar4 15 January 2020 21: 16 New
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            "Like someone's cigarette
            Stop light at night "(s).
            1. 3x3zsave 15 January 2020 21: 20 New
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              "And you and I go to a friend,
              And the "white sea" in a circle,
              And we take the guitar
              And we start to sing "(c)
            2. Korsar4 15 January 2020 21: 30 New
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              "Replace the guitar
              Electric organs, electric piano and electric saw "(c).
            3. 3x3zsave 15 January 2020 21: 34 New
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              "The iron horse replaces the peasant horse!" (WITH)
            4. Korsar4 15 January 2020 21: 41 New
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              "A little horse leads a bridle under a bridle" (c).
            5. 3x3zsave 15 January 2020 21: 51 New
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              "Threw off the cart,
              Led about
              God save you horses!
              I’m coming to the whole! "(C)
            6. Korsar4 15 January 2020 21: 57 New
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              "A woman with a cart is easier for the mare."
            7. 3x3zsave 15 January 2020 22: 00 New
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              "You’re a Russian share, a female affiliate!" (WITH)
            8. Korsar4 15 January 2020 22: 33 New
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              +2
              "You are heavy, joyless,
              Heavy, bitter "(c).
            9. 3x3zsave 16 January 2020 08: 36 New
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              "Hard and plain
              Life of the Soviet artist "
  • bubalik 15 January 2020 21: 43 New
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    - And she will not come alone, she will come with a blacksmith.
    “With which smith?” No, we don’t need a blacksmith. What am I, a horse or something?
    - Bless. Well you please make an offer ...
    - So, free! You don’t see, we play.
    (C)
  • 3x3zsave 15 January 2020 21: 57 New
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    "Hang on, angels!
    Look, I'm playing! "(C)
  • Catfish 15 January 2020 20: 20 New
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    "They drive a state car for personal need" (C)
    1. Korsar4 15 January 2020 20: 32 New
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      "And do not confuse your personal wool with the state!" (with).
      1. Catfish 15 January 2020 20: 35 New
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        "The state is me!" (c), more precisely - they, therefore, drive a car.
        1. Korsar4 15 January 2020 20: 43 New
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          "The Kingdom is not enough. I have nowhere to roam" (c).
  • Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 12: 21 New
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    Eifman, damn it!

    for those especially dedicated - I love musicals more. Remind me? tongue
  • Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 17: 40 New
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    It is very reliable, especially on its side, and even better upside down! laughing
    1. Catfish 15 January 2020 20: 51 New
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      "The king was going on a trip to a foreign country, the queen dried a bag of crackers for him ..." (c)
      1. 3x3zsave 15 January 2020 21: 01 New
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        “The pirate’s grandmother was collecting for robbery” (C)
        1. Catfish 15 January 2020 21: 16 New
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          "There is a hut on the mountain, and grandmother lives in it,
          Oh, and a harmful old woman, she doesn’t let her granddaughter get married. "
          1. 3x3zsave 15 January 2020 21: 27 New
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            "And your Ulyanka, don’t give us a gift either! And don’t do this and do not give a dowry!" (WITH)
    2. Pane Kohanku 16 January 2020 10: 04 New
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      It is very reliable, especially on its side, and even better upside down!

      here I even doubt .... what
  • san4es 15 January 2020 14: 45 New
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    Quote: Sea Cat
    .... and immediately remembered Madsen's handbrake arr. 1902 year ..


    recourse
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH5tgFEfzaU&t=65s
    Hello everyone hi Vyacheslav - thanks.
    1. Catfish 15 January 2020 15: 09 New
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      Great movie! Sasha, thanks! drinks
    2. voyaka uh 16 January 2020 23: 16 New
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      Thank you for the video. I read in some fiction about the Madsen machine gun,
      but had no idea what he was.
      However, it is conveniently and quite modernly made!
  • Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 05: 21 New
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    Quote: kalibr
    There is. Mauser M1898. It was forbidden for ordinary soldiers to separate the reflector cut-off on their own, but it was believed that the soldiers could insert it incorrectly and it would break. There was no such detail in the Mauser.
    Well, for example, Mosinka does not have a fuse as a separate part, so Mosinka is definitely not more complicated than Mauser. In general, in the Republic of Ingushetia, a soldier was considered a wry-handed fool, they even created a Nagan “soldier” specially without self-cocking, and the cutoff in Mosinka was needed because of the flange cartridge, and by the way it was combined with a reflector.
  • Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 05: 29 New
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    The designers proposed a new and very original automation scheme, which used the recoil force of the barrel during its short course. Of course, in our current view, their system looked really quite unusual,
    Such a scheme is used in CPV, and in M2 Browning 50 cal. , and then it is more than common all over the world. So it’s hard to call this unusual scheme.
    Ready-to-use cartridges were in a holder that was inserted into the grooves of the receiver shaft. Due to their own weight, they descended into the mine, where a special lever applied another cartridge to the delivery line
    If the device serves for storing cartridges, quick loading and remains in the weapon until the cartridges are used up, then this is not a clip, but a pack.
    1. Catfish 15 January 2020 17: 24 New
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      The designers proposed a new and very original automation scheme, which used the recoil force of the barrel during its short course. Of course, in our current view, their system looked really quite unusual,
      Such a scheme is used in CPV, and in M2 Browning 50 cal. , and then it is more than common all over the world. So it’s hard to call this unusual scheme.


      You should at least take a look at when this automation scheme was proposed, and when Browning created his "fifty dollars", and even more so when Vladimirov created his own machine gun. With one, the difference is about fifteen years, with another half a century. Who knew this scheme until Madsen thought of it?
      1. Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 17: 38 New
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        Eyes developTake a closer look at least at this:
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        Of course on our current view their system looked really quite unusual
        Hedgehog is clear that then any automation scheme was unusual, original and possibly innovative. But not today!
        1. Catfish 15 January 2020 19: 39 New
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          Eyes develop


          Are you rude in the absence of arguments, or simply out of a love of art?
          1. Vladimir_2U 16 January 2020 03: 23 New
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            Quote: Sea Cat
            Eyes developTake a closer look at least at this:
            This is no more rudeness than:
            Quote: Sea Cat
            Would you at least take a look

            You didn’t bother to look carefully:
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Of course,
            in our opinion today
            their system looked really quite unusual
            Once again, for not bothering: on our today взгляд. These are the words of the author of the article.
            1. Catfish 16 January 2020 07: 08 New
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              Develop your eyes Look at least carefully at this:
              This is no more rudeness than:
              Quote: Sea Cat
              Would you at least take a look

              You have a very peculiar look at your own rudeness, and in continuation:
              Once again, for not bothering:

              But these are not my problems, but those people who have the dubious pleasure of talking with you in real life.
              1. Vladimir_2U 16 January 2020 07: 12 New
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                Quote: Sea Cat
                Are you rude in the absence of arguments, or simply out of a love of art?
                And you give arguments against:
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Of course on our current view their system looked really quite unusual

                or will my "rudeness" hypothetical exaggerate? For the love of art, of course. After all, you have a carriage of arguments.
                1. Catfish 16 January 2020 07: 17 New
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                  ... will my "rudeness" hypothetical exaggerate? For the love of art, of course.

                  I will not, you are simply not interesting to me. request
                  1. Vladimir_2U 16 January 2020 07: 21 New
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                    Clearly, there are no arguments.
      2. kalibr 16 January 2020 16: 16 New
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        Konstantin! Well, the man was given a “today's look”, and he clung like a burdock to his ass. This is how people recently clung to the word “riveted”. One even brought a riveting scheme. Not in the know, they say, the author. Well, what can you do if the brain foam is damp. And yet, it is for us that today's view of the system is simply unique. And not because the recoil of the barrel was applied there with a short stroke, but by the fact that this principle is connected with a swinging shutter, which does not connect to the barrel in any way, but only supports it. That is, the barrel gives back, and the bolt while moving with the bolt frame screwed onto the barrel inside the receiver (!) Moves first up, then down, then it becomes in the middle and rests on the bottom of the sleeve. The shutter has nothing to do with the extraction and chambering of the cartridge into the barrel! How do you like this mechanism? And I did not write about this in detail, because here in VO there was already my detailed article about the Madsen machine gun. That's all. A person simply does not know all these details, that’s all.
        1. Catfish 16 January 2020 16: 50 New
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          Thank you, Vyacheslav. hi

          A person simply does not know all these details, that’s all.


          But like any amateur ambition above the roof. request
  • Baron pardus 8 June 2020 09: 11 New
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    Before talking about rifles, it’s best to shoot them. , disassemble assemble. I have 5 rifles. Mauser K98, or rather its Czech version (with a chromed barrel), Mosinka (and Finnish, with a heavier barrel and a semi-pistol butt), Mosinka Sovetskaya, Lee Enfield MK4 and Lee Enfield 2A1. By absolutely all indicators, the mosquito is the worst of them. Inconvenient fuse, to distort the shutter you need to take it away from the shoulder, you need to remove the clip manually. The Soviet mosquito is even more uncomfortable than the Finnish one. (The Finnish one is heavier and, at least mine, more precisely, but the shutter goes smoother and the trigger is better, and the semi-pistol butt drives the straight butt in the minus). Mauser is absolutely in all respects better than a mosquito not just a head, three heads. The shutter slides more smoothly. The shutter handle is closer to the trigger, a convenient fuse, you do not need to pull out the clip, it flies out when closing. I can’t say that my Mauser is much more accurate than my Finnish mosquito, but more precisely. And Lee Enfield covers all these rifles like a bull to a sheep. Convenient, application specialist, quick reload, large store capacity. To cock at shutter closure is therefore faster. The shutter slides like silk over silk. And Enfield 2A1 still eats NATO cartridges 7.62x51, which are cheaper than Mauser. Mauser is a little more accurate than whether the enfield if you shoot more slowly. But in a real situation, the difference in accuracy is zero. But in the debate, I’ll make 30 shots from emfield until you shoot 20. From the collection of rifles, by the sum of the indicators, there is absolutely nothing better than Lee Anfield, and there wasn’t. Well, Mauser’s cartridge is more powerful, but it doesn’t make much difference for the infantryman on the hunt or in the war. But the ability to bum 10 times while the opponent bob 7 times - this is important. Yes, and Lee Anfield’s butt is very, very convenient.
  • Pedrodepackes 14 January 2020 21: 19 New
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    Quote: Theodore
    Stronger and easier Mosinki - still no beast

    so yes, only we are talking about automatic (self-loading) rifles
  • 3x3zsave 14 January 2020 19: 02 New
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    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich! True, I was a sinful affair, I thought that your friend purchased a new copy in his collection. Painfully pictures are good!
    1. kalibr 14 January 2020 19: 17 New
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      Alas, Anton! For a long time he did not have. Maybe that is. But then, I’m glad to inform you that I wrote an article on "antique". You “reproached” me, so the “inner voice” whispered to me right away that ... “we have to do it” and it went very well. So most likely this week will be.
      1. 3x3zsave 14 January 2020 19: 47 New
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        For a long time he did not have.
        We are all here, “scary, like busy people,” but still you should not forget about old friends!
        "Antique" is great! Over the past year - a rare "bird" in our "swamp"!
        1. kalibr 14 January 2020 20: 12 New
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          Quote: 3x3zsave
          but still you should not forget about old friends!

          To friends - everything, to enemies - the law!
  • Alf
    Alf 14 January 2020 19: 21 New
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    I personally think that in the world there were only two real self-loading rifles in the first half of the XNUMXth century, SVT and Garanda. After the war, the SVD was added, but it is not infantry.
    1. kalibr 14 January 2020 19: 23 New
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      General Mondragon had a good rifle. It required leaving, yes, but for its time it was very good.
      1. Alf
        Alf 14 January 2020 19: 24 New
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        Quote: kalibr
        General Mondragon had a good rifle. It required leaving, yes, but for its time it was very good.

        Maybe, but how big a war did it go and how much did it release? And Garand was noted in Korean.
        1. kalibr 14 January 2020 19: 26 New
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          “Garand” because it turned out that before his eyes he just didn’t have anything, including the “Mondragon”. So little by little perfection is achieved.
          1. Alf
            Alf 14 January 2020 19: 30 New
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            Quote: kalibr
            “Garand” because it turned out that before his eyes he just didn’t have anything, including the “Mondragon”. So little by little perfection is achieved.

            Maybe.
  • Undecim 14 January 2020 20: 44 New
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    As for the Madsen-Rasmussen rifle, it can rightfully be called the mother of all automatic rifles in general.
    A highly controversial statement.
    Firstly, automatic rifles and self-loading rifles should be divided.
    The Madsen-Rasmussen rifle was self-loading.
    Secondly, a little earlier Manliher created his self-loading rifle.

    Automation - recoil barrel with a short stroke. But the cartridge with black powder 11x58R Werndl Rifle Mod. 1877 was completely unsuitable for self-loading and automatic rifles. But her device contained all the necessary solutions.
    By the way, Madsen and Rasmussen also started with black powder and also unsuccessfully.
  • Narak-zempo 14 January 2020 21: 38 New
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    Protective cap on the barrel. At that time was considered an important affiliation.

    Condoms were in short supply laughing
  • shinobi 15 January 2020 01: 33 New
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    It turns out Smith-Condit Grandpa Garanda?
    1. Alf
      Alf 15 January 2020 20: 12 New
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      Quote: shinobi
      It turns out Smith-Condit Grandpa Garanda?

      Judging by the picture above, Garand could not be the grandson of Smt-Condit. laughing