Military Review

Anti-Russian and anti-state white project

409
"Court stories will not fall upon us, who remained in Russia and honestly fulfilled their duty, but on those who prevented this, forgetting the interests of their Homeland and sneering at foreigners who are obvious enemies of Russia in its past and future. ”
General M. D. Bonch-Bruevich



Even in the Soviet Union there was a myth that the White movement was monarchical: "The White Army, the Black Baron again prepare the royal throne for us." In the post-Soviet era, this myth was significantly complemented by the fact that whites began to be considered carriers of Russian state patriotism.

They say that whites saved Russia, and the “bloody reds” killed her. Although in reality whites were ordinary mercenaries of Russian pro-Western capital and global capital. The Russian pro-Western, liberal-bourgeois elite of society (the February lists), overthrowing the tsar and destroying the autocracy, dreamed of making “sweet Europe” of Russia, turning it into a peripheral part of European civilization. However, it did not work out. The Westernizers did not know Russia and the Russian people at all. A Russian unrest began, aggravated by the destructive, stupid actions of the pro-Western Provisional Government.

Fevralista-Westerners quickly remained at the broken trough and lost power, which the Bolsheviks took in the center, and on the outskirts of the nationalists and Cossacks. But they did not want to accept and live quietly in Paris or Venice. In addition, there was an external order: the owners of the West wanted to destroy the Russian civilization and the Russian superethnos, their main conceptual and geopolitical adversary, once and for all. Therefore, hastily began the creation of nationalist and white governments and armies that transferred the already ongoing Civil War (the peasant war began immediately after February, like the criminal revolution) to a new, more serious level. As a result, whites appeared as mercenaries of the masters of the West.

Anti-Russian and anti-state white project


The mythical picture of the guarantors and cornets, who began to defend the Motherland with their chests, “for the faith, the king and the Fatherland” and in the moment free from fighting with tears in their eyes, “God Save the Tsar!” No wonder one of the most prominent and talented white generals, Lieutenant-General Ya. A. Slashchov-Krymsky, leaving the White Army and going over to the Reds, wrote an article: "Slogans of Russian patriotism in the service of France." This is all the essence of the White movement is the service of the owners of the West under the cover of the slogan of salvation "united and indivisible Russia". From here comes the complete moral decay of the white elite, who understood or, at the subconscious level, felt her traitorous role in relation to the people.

The White movement, having received material aid and military aid from the West and Japan - in the form of direct intervention (invasion) of the western and eastern invaders, quickly lost even the external forms of the patriotic movement. In this way, The anti-Soviet counter-revolution appeared as a pro-Western force, leading to the loss of the integrity and independence of Russia, the complete destruction of Russian civilization and superethnos. The great Russian scientist D.I. Mendeleev, starting to create “Russian studies”, put a minimum condition in this idea: “survive and continue independent growth” of Russia. This is precisely the minimal, unchanging and fundamental task of Russian statehood. If at the same time Russia becomes a great developed power, then the task of Russian statehood is performed not at the minimum, but at a high level (as under Stalin). The whites fought for power on the ruins of “old Russia” and went under the masters of the West. No patriotism (except in words), one “business” - power and property, the ability to continue to parasitize on the people.

It is clear that the Russian people instantly saw through the vile essence of the White movement. This predetermined the loss of broad popular support and the defeat of the White Army. Even most of the officers of the former imperial army, which received pro-Western liberal upbringing and education in many respects, but remained Russian in their hearts, realized this and supported the Reds, since they really supported restoration of Russian statehood and great Russia. Half of the generals and officers of the General Staff, the color of the imperial army, began to serve in the Red Army. In the Red Army, the Tsarist generals and officers went to serve almost exclusively not for ideological, but for patriotic reasons. The Bolsheviks had a project and a program for the development of Russia as an independent power, and not the periphery of a European (Western) civilization. General M. D. Bonch-Bruyevich later wrote: “Rather, by instinct, than by reason, I was drawn to the Bolsheviks, seeing in them the only force capable of saving Russia from collapse and complete destruction.”

Excellently showed the essence of the views of Russian generals and officers who joined the Red Army, General A. A. Brusilov. The appeal “To all former officers, no matter where they are,” addressed by a large group of former generals of the Russian army led by Brusilov 30 in May 1920, when there was a threatening situation on the Polish front, said: “In this critical historical moment of our national life, we, your old comrades, appeal to your feelings of love and devotion to your homeland and appeal to you with an urgent request to forget all the insults, whoever and wherever they inflicted, and voluntarily go with complete selflessness and hunting to the Red Army and with it’s not a matter of fear for conscience, so that by our honest service, not sparing our lives, to defend dear Russia by all means and not to allow her to be plundered, for in the latter case she may be irretrievably lost, and then our descendants will curse us rightly and correctly blame that, because of the egoistic feelings of the class struggle, we did not use our combat knowledge and experience, we forgot our native Russian people and ruined our mother Russia. ”

Even the anti-Soviet historian M. Nazarov noted in his book “The Mission of the Russian Emigration”: “The orientation of the White movement to the Entente made many people fear that when White won, the foreign forces behind them would subordinate Russia to their interests.” The Red Army was increasingly perceived as a force restoring statehood and sovereignty of Russia.

Obviously, the The anti-Russian and anti-state nature of the pro-Western bourgeois-liberal (in the future white) project has matured and manifested itself even before the beginning of the turmoil. Union with the West during the Civil War only finally revealed this essence. It was the pro-Western bourgeois-liberal forces (the February lists) that crushed the Russian autocracy in February, which led to the collapse of the project and the Romanov empire. Westerners dreamed of leading Russia along the western path of development, for them the ideal of state, social and economic structure was England and France. The top of Russia - rotted aristocracy along with the grand dukes, nobility, generals with a part of senior officers, industrialists and bankers, the bourgeoisie and capitalists, the leaders of most political parties and movements, the liberal intelligentsia - dreamed of being part of the "enlightened West". Westerners were for the "market" and "democracy", the full power of the "owners of money," the owners. But their interests did not correspond to the national interests of Russia, the matrix code of the Russian civilization and the people. This radical rift and caused Russian distemper. In Russia, unrest begins when popular (national) interests are violated in the most despicable way, which happened in the 1917 year.

The essence of the pro-Western bourgeois-liberal (white) project, its anti-Russianness and anti-statehood are well reflected in the "Landmarks" and "From the Depth", and the writer V.V. Rozanov, and eyewitnesses of the "damned days" - I. Bunin and M. Prishvin . So, in Bunin's "Cursed Days" on each page we see one passion - the expectation of the arrival of the Germans with their ordnung and gallows. And if not the Germans, then at least some kind of foreigners - if only they would have occupied Russia as soon as possible, drove back into the mines and the rednecks that had raised their heads. “In the newspapers - about the beginning of the German offensive. Everyone says: "Oh, if only!" ... Yesterday B. was visited by decent people - and all in one voice: the Germans, thank God, are moving, took Smolensk and Bologoe ... Rumors about some Polish legions who also supposedly go to save us ... The Germans do not seem to go, as they usually go in war, fighting, conquering, and "just go by rail" - to occupy Petersburg ... After yesterday evening's news that Petersburg was already taken by the Germans , the newspapers were very disappointed ... As if the German corps had entered St. Petersburg. Tomorrow the decree on the denationalization of banks ... Saw V.V. fervently insulted the allies: they enter into negotiations with the Bolsheviks instead of going to occupy Russia ... "

And further: “Rumors and rumors. Petersburg was taken by the Finns ... Hindenburg is not going to Odessa, or to Moscow ... Everything, we are waiting for help from someone, from a miracle, from nature! Now we go daily to Nikolayevsky Boulevard: did not leave, God save, the French battleship, which for some reason is looming on the roadstead and in which it still seems easier. ”

This is shown very strongly in M. Bulgakov’s play The Days of the Turbins, written on the basis of the White Guard novel. The Turbins brothers and their friends are presented to us as carriers of Russian officer honor, like the type of people from whom we should take an example. But if we look at justice, then we see how the “White Guard” - officers and junker men, fire rifles and machine guns at certain “gray people” and serve the Germans and their puppet hetman. What do they protect? Here's what: “Both strikes of lieutenant stacks on faces, and shrapnel quick fire on recalcitrant villages, backs torn by ramrods of hetman serdyuk, and receipts on pieces of paper by the majors and lieutenants of the German army: . Good-natured, contemptuous laughter over those who came with such a receipt to the headquarters of the Germans in the city. "

And the “gray” people who were shot at by white officers, defending the hetman and the Germans, and at the same time dreaming of invading the French and Senegalese in Russia, are Russian soldiers and peasants brought by the old “elite” to the Civil War. And these officers are samples of honor and patriotism? Obviously not. Generals Brusilov and Bonch-Bruyevich, Colonel Shaposhnikov, non-commissioned officers Rokossovsky and Chapaev - these are examples to imitate and educate the younger generation in the spirit of love for the Motherland.

Thus, the whites were ready to rely even on the Germans, like Ataman Krasnov, even on the French, British and Americans - like Denikin and Kolchak. Meanwhile, the red feverishly recreated the Russian (Soviet) statehood and the army to repel the interventionists and their local slaves. At the same time, to build a country where there will be no social parasites, where everyone will be able to get such an education as their intellectual potential will allow them to create powerful science and industry so as not to depend on the West.

The “Supreme Ruler” of Russia, Admiral A.V. Kolchak, whom representatives of the modern liberal public of Russia so loved (apparently, they saw “their own”), was a real “condottier”, a mercenary of the West, supplied by the owners of Great Britain and the USA. He wrote literally about the Russian people as the extreme Russophobe of perestroika: "a wild and distraught (and devoid of similarity) people unable to get out of the psychology of slaves." Under the rule of Kolchak in Siberia, such cruelties were committed against this people that the peasant uprisings in the rear of the white army became almost the main factor for the defeat of the whites. In addition, Kolchak was a prominent February-revolutionary, with his fate crushed the royal throne.

In present-day Russia, A. I. Denikin tried to make a national hero. They note that he did not help Hitler and wished the victory of the Red Army in the Great Patriotic War. But it is in its declining years. And during the time of troubles, Denikin de facto served the masters of the West. As noted by the remarkable Russian writer and researcher during the Revolution and the Civil War in Russia, V.V. Kozhinov: “Anton Ivanovich Denikin was in unconditional submission to the West.” Biography A. I. Denikin D. Lekhovich defined the views of the leader of the White movement as liberalism and hopes that "the Cadet party can lead Russia to a constitutional monarchy of the British type", so that "the idea of ​​loyalty to the allies [Entente] acquired the character of a symbol of faith."

You cannot separate the White movement and foreign intervention, as often do anti-Soviet researchers, supporters of whites. They are inextricably linked. Without the intervention of the Western powers and Japan, the Civil War in Russia would not have taken such a scale. The Bolsheviks would have suppressed the centers of resistance of the whites, separatist nationalists, Basmachis and bandit groups much faster and without such big sacrifices. Without Western deliveries of weapons and materials, the whites and national armies would not have been able to expand their activities.
Author:
Articles from this series:
Smoot. 1918 year

How to create a volunteer army
How the battle for the Don began
"Your talk is not needed by the working people. The guard is tired!"
100 years of the Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army and Navy
Who incited the Civil War
White fought for the interests of the West
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  1. Albatroz
    Albatroz 13 February 2018 07: 18
    +8
    There was a motley mosaic, a palette of past movements. The war of all against all, based on what is at hand.
    Of course, there was no single project in the modern sense
    And the anti-state in white was no more than in red. Someone relied on the Germans, someone on the allies, and someone on the Chinese and Magyars)
    People from both sides fought for a vision of the future of Russia, a mixture of all classes and classes.
    Well, what happened - what happened
    1. Albatroz
      Albatroz 13 February 2018 07: 20
      +11
      most of the officers of the former imperial army, who received largely pro-Western liberal upbringing and education

      This is where they got it - in the ensign schools or something)))
      Little remained of the officers by the year 17 — mainly workers, peasants, and labor intelligentsia. In these schools, methods of handling weapons were not always comprehended, and there were no EDUCATIONS at all.
      Well and so on
      1. Basil50
        Basil50 13 February 2018 08: 22
        +15
        It is very unpleasant to realize that there are too few who can think.
        For three hundred years the Romanovs and their hangers-on, to one degree or another of their understanding, were engaged in the integration of RUSSIA into the * system of Western values ​​*. Even the managers on the estate were hired by the Germans, in imitation of the royal house. In 1917, it was the French and the British who decided to demolish the tsar and make RUSSIA an official colony. Moreover, the Germans seem to be almost defeated.
        The events of those days are known by documents, but still there are those who lie about events and about * aspirations * of such cute and educated * knights of the white movement *. There are those who make * white and fluffy * atamans and just bandits, like Antonov and other batiks.
        Politically-laden criminals began to appear in the young SOVIET REPUBLIC. There are still * concepts * formulated by crime ideologists. But the fact that former officers of A have become ideologists of crime is still somehow falling. And the fact that * Soviet raspberries told the enemy - Yes * is also hushed up somehow. After the war, criminals killed those who dared to fight against the Germans, says a lot.
        Today's counter-revolution was also accompanied by a riot of criminals.
        So we can conclude both about foreign administration and about the link with criminals to those who care about * Eurointegration * of RUSSIA so much, let them dress up in any words, the connection is obvious.
        1. captain
          captain 13 February 2018 11: 14
          +9
          Quote: Vasily50
          It is very unpleasant to realize that there are too few who can think.
          For three hundred years the Romanovs and their hangers-on, to one degree or another of their understanding, were engaged in the integration of RUSSIA into the * system of Western values ​​*. Even the managers on the estate were hired by the Germans, in imitation of the royal house. In 1917, it was the French and the British who decided to demolish the tsar and make RUSSIA an official colony. Moreover, the Germans seem to be almost defeated.
          The events of those days are known by documents, but still there are those who lie about events and about * aspirations * of such cute and educated * knights of the white movement *. There are those who make * white and fluffy * atamans and just bandits, like Antonov and other batiks.
          Politically-laden criminals began to appear in the young SOVIET REPUBLIC. There are still * concepts * formulated by crime ideologists. But the fact that former officers of A have become ideologists of crime is still somehow falling. And the fact that * Soviet raspberries told the enemy - Yes * is also hushed up somehow. After the war, criminals killed those who dared to fight against the Germans, says a lot.
          Today's counter-revolution was also accompanied by a riot of criminals.
          So we can conclude both about foreign administration and about the link with criminals to those who care about * Eurointegration * of RUSSIA so much, let them dress up in any words, the connection is obvious.

          Of course, Blank, Bronstein, Zinoviev (Ovsey-Gershen Aaronovich Radomyslsky, in his youth also bore the name of his mother Apfelbaum), Kamenev (Rosenfeld), Grigory Yakovlevich Sokolnikov (aka Gersh Yankelevich Diamond), Lazar Moiseevich Kaganovich, Yeritsky-URITSKIY Movshevich Sverdlov, V. Volodarsky (real name Moses Markovich Goldstein); Rozalia Samoilovna Zemlyachka (nee Zalkind) ..... How many Russian patriots saved Russia, especially those who were in the Bund.
          As children, the Bolsheviks surprisingly fulfilled the plan for dividing Russia, which the United States brought to the Paris Conference following the results of the World War. Everything fell away from Russia during the 75 years of the rule of the "patriots", except for Siberia. But if anyone remembers, then already in the 90 years the “Siberian” nationality began to appear.
          In the young Soviet republic, a lot of criminals held government posts. For example, the famous "Camo". Engaged in bank robberies. He is our national hero, just like Kotovsky, from crime, became a national hero.
          And who is today's counter-revolution? HER were they brought from the USA to us? Or maybe from Germany? No, they are all kids, nephews, grandchildren of the elite of the Soviet Union. And where do the children of the general secretaries live? Maybe in Moscow? No, they are all preparing a revolution beyond the hill. Probably very risky and suffering there.
          Dear Mr. Samsonov, send them money (to the children) so that they could return from the USA and the EU and continue the glorious deeds of their parents regarding the collapse of Russia.
        2. Basil50
          Basil50 13 February 2018 13: 31
          +18
          Like there: * Jews, Jews, only Jews around *.
          But for some reason, Nicholas II is never criticized for the frank sale of the interests of the RUSSIAN EMPIRE to the Rothschilds.
          Temporary are not criticized for the arrest of the king, the collapse of the state machine of the RUSSIAN EMPIRE, for the collapse of the warring army, for the amnesty of criminals, for treaties with the Entente on the occupation of RUSSIA.
          But how much hatred for the Bolsheviks and personally for Vladimir Ilyich Lenin. Gather rumors, outright lies, and even copyright fakes.
          It’s a pity that there will be nothing to liars
          1. dSK
            dSK 13 February 2018 16: 43
            +2
            Quote: Vasily50
            interests of the RUSSIAN EMPIRE

            Gentlemen, “historians,” what kind of Russia did the “Romanovs” accept in 1616 after the Polish occupation, and what kind of Empire did they “surrender” in 1917? In vain do you hope that
            there will be nothing to liars
            "I tell you, for every idle word that people say, they will give an answer on the day of the trial: for from your words you will be justified, and from your words condemn. " (Matthew 12: 36-37)
          2. Basil50
            Basil50 14 February 2018 10: 08
            +2
            dsk
            In fact, the Romanov clan was one of the initiators of the Time of Troubles and the invitation of the Poles and the hiring of Swedes. In payment, the Poles were given the whole of Western Russia. In payment, the Swedes * presented * the north of Russia up to GREAT NOVGOROD.
            1. captain
              captain 14 February 2018 15: 53
              +1
              Quote: Vasily50
              dsk
              In fact, the Romanov clan was one of the initiators of the Time of Troubles and the invitation of the Poles and the hiring of Swedes. In payment, the Poles were given the whole of Western Russia. In payment, the Swedes * presented * the north of Russia up to GREAT NOVGOROD.

              And why do not you criticize Lenin for the surrender of Poland, Finland, the Kars region, for the creation of semi-states like Ukraine (as a result, the current war in the Donbass). Why do not you criticize Lenin and his friends for Ukrainization and the invitation of Grushevsky from Lviv with several thousand teachers of the semi-Polish language?
              1. revnagan
                revnagan 19 March 2018 16: 33
                0
                Quote: captain
                And why do not you criticize Lenin for the surrender of Poland, Finland, the Kars region, for the creation of semi-states like Ukraine (as a result, the current war in the Donbass).

                Because an intelligent person does not ask such stupid questions, everything is clear to him. Poland, Finland NEVER WERE RUSSIAN EARTH. In RI neither Psheks nor dates served in the army, did not pay taxes, they had local, not Russian, Legislation. In those conditions, with the West’s support for the national aspirations of the Psheks and Chu Khontsy, attempts to keep them within Russia would lead to even more bloody victims, which the new state could simply “not pull.” And everything else that the Bolsheviks gave over Brestsky They returned to the world very quickly. In Ukraine: and I want to ask (in Zadornov’s voice) “uncle captain, where is Lenin, and where is the Donbass?” Before Russia left millions of Russians throughout the former USSR to the famous Yeltsin’s, take independence, as much as you want, nationalists successfully "crushed" not only in Ukraine, but in all national suburbs.
            2. Gopnik
              Gopnik 14 February 2018 16: 55
              +1
              The Romanovs did not give anything to the Swedes and Poles, on the contrary, they recaptured Novgorod, but Smolensk and Chernihiv simply could not.
              1. revnagan
                revnagan 19 March 2018 16: 07
                0
                Did the Romanovs give the Americans 20% of the RUSSIAN EARTH. Did you forget Alaska? And did the Bolsheviks “hold on” to the Russian land, and then quickly and more than returned everything: Bessarabia and Western Ukraine and Belarus ... and half of Sakhalin that the Romanovs are ready were a present to the Japanese ...
      2. Adjutant
        Adjutant 13 February 2018 10: 00
        +5
        This is where they got it - in the ensign schools or something)))
        Little remained of the officers by the year 17 — mainly workers, peasants, and labor intelligentsia. In these schools, methods of handling weapons were not always comprehended, and there were no EDUCATIONS at all.

        Exactly.
        Only in the cavalry, artillery, and military units did the main personnel remain.
        And this is a minority of the army
    2. rkkasa xnumx
      rkkasa xnumx 13 February 2018 08: 08
      +13
      Quote: Albatroz
      anti-state in white was no more than in red. Someone relied on the Germans, someone on the allies, and someone on the Chinese and Magyars)

      That is, on one side there are whites with support from the STATES - France, England, Germany, Japan, USA, etc. And on the other - red, on the side of which, Chinese and Magyar VOLUNTEERS, without any support from the STATES.
      Both the Chinese and Magyar VOLUNTEERS were stronger than the STATES ... strong devils laughing laughing laughing
      1. Dzmicer
        Dzmicer 13 February 2018 08: 12
        +7
        Do you yourself understand that it clearly follows from your statement that there was no substantial support from the STATES for good?
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 13 February 2018 08: 51
          +17
          did not have substantial support from the STATES?

          In February 1919, an agreement was signed on the supply of loans to 100 aircraft for the Armed Forces of the South of Russia "with full combat equipment, a wireless telegraph, repair shops and spare parts, which were intended for the English landing in Russia". Aircraft deliveries (model RE-X) took place over two months. By the end of September, the total cost of air shipments of the All-Union Federal Air Transport System alone was 1919. 453 thousand pounds. Tanks shipped under Shcherbachev’s contracts with the British War Department (rhombus models (Mk-V and Mk-V), Whippet - greyhound (Mk-A), began to arrive in Novorossiysk in March 1919. In the report of Shcherbachev it was reported about 12 tanks sent to the address of VSYUR. In July, 74 similar tanks were added to existing tanks of the type. Perhaps these figures are even underestimated, since only the Red Army captured the tanks in 1919 - 1920. in the south of Russia there are 73 units (56 MK.V and 17 “Whippets”). The tanks sent by the FSSJ remained partially at the bases of Rostov-on-Don and Novorossiysk. These tanks captured the Reds. British war department fully provided for the needs of the white armies in artillery and small arms. It should be borne in mind that back in 1915 in English factories Russian orders for three-line Mosin rifles and cartridges for them were placed. Now these "Russian rifles" and cartridges (their stock in English warehouses was 80 million units), the actual English samples (models of Lee-Anfield, Enfield-Mauser) were sent to Russia by the white armies. At the same time, the army of generals Denikin, Yudenich and Miller it was decided to rearm exclusively English weapons, and the army Kolchak - Russian rifles. In VSYUR was sent 73 425 British rifles and prepared to send another 100 thousand. Fully equipped and artillery parks, mostly English 18-pound field guns and 45-linear howitzers. For example, by the end of May 1919, the armed forces in southern Russia received 6 batteries of 18-pound field guns and two 45-inch howitzers from the UK. An important place in the military supply of the white armies was occupied by English uniforms. In the south of Russia, new military units received, as a rule, full english uniform. In addition to military equipment, supplies from England and civilian equipment were also of no small importance. A loan of 500 thousand pounds was opened for "satisfying the needs of the railways of the South of Russia" (in particular, 2 thousand tons of rails, 98 steam locomotives and 200 wagons) Large shipments of drugs and hospital equipment were sent to Revel, Arkhangelsk and Novorossiysk. In Yekaterinodar, at the expense of the English government, two radio stations were mounted, one of which combined London, Paris, Ekaterinodar and Omsk in the common information space, the other was intended for communication with Constantinople. Only in February-March of 1919, according to the Denikin Procurement Administration, the Entente countries received Novorossiysk port 1840 machine guns, 33200 rifles, 64 guns, over 90 million cartridges, 211 thousand shells, 72 truck. In April - May, cargo was delivered to the Volunteer Army on another 54 steamboats. At this time, shipments from England to Siberia and southern Russia increased significantly. Prince Yevgeny Trubetskoy, who was then in Yekaterinodar, testified that “military material began to arrive from England in such abundance that The volunteer army did not have time to unload it. The British complained about the slowness of unloading". The same thing told Trubetskoy about the Caucasus, returned from there in April 1919, General I.G. Airedale “Obviously,” wrote Trubetskoy, “that in the spring of 1919 there was some kind of turning point in the attitude of England towards us.” There is no doubt that the White armies owe this fracture primarily to the new British Minister of War Winston Churchill. When sending to the South of Russia in April 1919, the new head of the British military mission, Major General Holman, the Minister of War sent Denikin a personal letter with him. where he promised all kinds of help in the task of “breaking the Bolshevik tyranny.” From March to September, 1919, the All-Russian Union of Liberal Democratic Forces received from the British 558 guns, 12 tanks, 1685522 shells and 160 million rifle cartridges [/ b [b]] in. In the summer of 1919, when the White Army broke through the front in the Donbass, the Entente strengthened material assistance to Denikin. The national center reported to Moscow: “The British carry out their assistance methodically and continuously. While they delivered everything to the army in 100 thousand people. Everything is of excellent quality, everything is solid, there are many. Overwhelmed with medicines. There are armored airplanes, with British pilots. Little by little, the army changes into English uniforms. We look forward to further transports. ”In October 1919, W. Churchill, under the influence of the successes of General Denikin’s troops, announced the decision of the government to 14,5 Million Pounds to send weapons. Major General Holman, head of the British military mission, told I. Denikin: “I received the following telegram from the Minister of War from London: Yesterday I received a CABINET sanction for an additional supply of military supplies and supplies for Your Excellency’s Armies worth 14,5 million pounds including ships and shipping costs. These military supplies represent a quarter of all our military stocks and therefore consist of objects with which we can freely dispose. http://maxpark.com/community/8/content/1291757
          Maltsev D. A. Sbornik RUSO “Military intervention and civil war in Russia (1918 -1920 years). And this is only the south of Russia. Naturally, the FSE lied.
          1. avva2012
            avva2012 13 February 2018 08: 57
            +11
            Well, so that you shouldn’t crush the water in a mortar, fret, or fret, you should read the information from the other side:
            At the end of 1918 - February 1919. The troops of the Dobarmia defeated the Soviet 11 Army and captured the entire North Caucasus. In order to consolidate efforts to combat the Bolsheviks, relying on financial and material and technical assistance from the Entente countries (mainly England), A. I. Denikin and P. N. Krasnov on December 26, November 1918 (January 8, 1919) concluded an agreement on the formation of the "Armed Forces in the South of Russia" (VSYUR) led by Denikin. An integral and main part of them was Dobrarmiya, renamed 10 (23) on January 1919 to the Caucasian Volunteer Army, commanded by Lieutenant General Baron P.N. Wrangel.
            Andrey Shkuro - Civil War in Russia: Notes of a White Partisan.
            Enjoy: https://profilib.net/chtenie/103019/andrey-shkuro
            -grazhdanskaya-voyna-v-rossii-zapiski-belogo-part
            izana-94.php
          2. Dzmicer
            Dzmicer 13 February 2018 08: 58
            +5
            Searching for this book on the net did not return any results. Are there any other sources?
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 13 February 2018 09: 00
              +4
              https://profilib.net/chtenie/103019/andrey-shkuro
              -grazhdanskaya-voyna-v-rossii-zapiski-belogo-part
              izana-94.php Change the network, for example, if "did not give results."
              1. Dzmicer
                Dzmicer 13 February 2018 09: 09
                +6
                Maltsev D. A. Collection of Russo “Military intervention and civil war in Russia (1918-1920).

                I meant this book here. I express my gratitude for the link to Skuro, it will be interesting to take a look, although I do not like the irregulars.
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 13 February 2018 09: 16
                  +9
                  You do not know how to work with sources? There is a link to the book, which may not be on the network, but it may not be so. Look at Ozone, for example. In general, information about the help of the Entente of dobrarmia is still that "secret".
                  1. Dzmicer
                    Dzmicer 13 February 2018 09: 19
                    +7
                    It would be interesting to look at a study comparing aid from the Allies with the resources of the captured royal military depots that went to the Bolsheviks.
                    The results of the civil war suggest that the correlation will by no means be in favor of dobrarmia.
                  2. Varyag_0711
                    Varyag_0711 13 February 2018 09: 49
                    +14
                    Alexander, welcome! hi To whom and what are you trying to prove? This is a well-known fascist henchman. I beg you, stop feeding the trolls, they do not come to look for the truth here, but to ruin everything and everything, to which their sweaty little arms reach out.
                    1. Dzmicer
                      Dzmicer 13 February 2018 10: 16
                      +6
                      Get back in touch, my dear? What do you think, what rudeness, insults, accusations and provocations of a supporter of a totalitarian quasi-religious ideology, whose adherents (like you) have killed more Russian people than Hitler's flayers, can have on me or on a respectable society?
                    2. avva2012
                      avva2012 13 February 2018 10: 51
                      +9
                      Alexei, dear, I do not give him information. Do you really think that I have an assumption that he will buy this book on Ozone: Maltsev D. A. Sbornik RUSO “Military intervention and civil war in Russia (1918 -1920 years)?” That he, that the lieutenant, they are not for knowledge sitting on the site. This information is for those who are interested in the history of their native country. For them, this country is not native. And about, "feed the troll," then late, already fed. It is necessary at the appearance of such not to respond.
                      1. Varyag_0711
                        Varyag_0711 13 February 2018 11: 06
                        +10
                        avva2012 Today, 10:51 ↑
                        And about, "feed the troll," then late, already fed.
                        Yes, you are right, unfortunately really fed ...
                      2. Dzmicer
                        Dzmicer 13 February 2018 12: 24
                        +3
                        Do you really think that I have an assumption that he will buy this book on Ozone: Maltsev D. A. Sbornik RUSO “Military intervention and civil war in Russia (1918-1920)

                        There is no such book on Ozone.
                        The search engine about it also does not give out absolutely no information. Both about the book and about the author. From which we can conclude:
                        a) this book is an unknown booklet dusting somewhere in the archives of some provincial library;
                        b) it is not in nature, which is more likely.
            2. BAI
              BAI 13 February 2018 09: 43
              +5
              Everything is on "Militer" http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/shkuro_ag/ind
              ex.html
          3. Lieutenant Teterin
            Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 09: 09
            +7
            Hm. You’d better teach a real story instead of quotes taken out of context. https://topwar.ru/974-kak-soyuzniki-belym-pomogal
            i.html
            Read and enlighten — how REALLY the English and French “helped” the whites.
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 13 February 2018 09: 30
              +13
              Read and Enlighten

              Sami Starikova N.V., read and educate. It’s not a bad idea, of course, to replace the w / masons with the “Englishwoman”, which spoils everything. You can understand Starikov, or else, the M-Masons, it smells like a yellow house and good orderlies nowadays.
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 13 February 2018 09: 58
                +1
                Quote: avva2012
                It’s not a bad idea, of course, to replace the w / Masons with the “Englishwoman”, which spoils everything.

                That is, the Anglo-Saxons are not "partners" to us?
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 13 February 2018 11: 25
                  +3
                  That is, the Anglo-Saxons are not "partners" to us?
                  Our partners are in the vocabulary of the GDP, so ask him.
                  1. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 13 February 2018 13: 07
                    +1
                    Quote: avva2012
                    Our partners are in the vocabulary of the GDP, so ask him.

                    That is, they are not our enemies?
                    1. avva2012
                      avva2012 13 February 2018 15: 17
                      +2
                      I already told you who should be asked. I didn’t call them partners, so everything is there.
                      1. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 13 February 2018 16: 36
                        +1
                        Quote: avva2012
                        I didn’t call them partners, so everything is there.

                        Actually, I took the word partners in quotation marks, and besides, if you did not notice
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        That is, they are not our enemies?
                    2. avva2012
                      avva2012 13 February 2018 16: 51
                      +2
                      Do you take an example from Olgovich? He began to ask the same banal question from a post in prst. Have you decided to join? N. Starikov, an ordinary provocateur. He introduced a number of fakes into circulation under pseudo-patriotic rhetoric. Ordinary gn.ida paid. So I do not care what he claims and what does not.
              2. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 10: 25
                +6
                You, of course, have the right not to trust the conclusions of Mr. Starikov, just as I do not trust them. But ignore the quotations of Denikin cited by him in which he speaks of real help from the Entente, of its meager volume and untimelyness (especially since you yourself refer to Denikin) is, as you deigned to say, “it smells like white orderlies.”
                1. novel66
                  novel66 13 February 2018 11: 02
                  +2
                  and here you are, lieutenant!
                2. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 13 February 2018 11: 51
                  +5
                  Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
                  Ignore Denikin’s quotes quoted by him, in which he talks about real help from the Entente, about its meager volume and untimely

                  Let's not forget about the QUALITY of this "help": junk, incomplete, marriage. trash: I remember the fact of sending ... FENCER swords and masks! Or planes on which out of 10 it was impossible to fly on 8
                  1. Lieutenant Teterin
                    Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 12: 25
                    +7
                    Exactly. This "help" was provided on the principle: "Take it wise, that we are worthless." In the contracts they wrote beautiful promises, but they were not going to keep them.
                    1. Okolotochny
                      Okolotochny 13 February 2018 12: 50
                      +11
                      So were there any contracts? I mean helping the white movement? That is, they waited and wanted help? So then what to argue: "Little, old, bullshit"? Didn’t they understand what foreigners would want for their help? I’m not talking about the amount of help, but about the fact. That is, they consciously took help from the interventionists.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 13 February 2018 13: 19
                        +5
                        Quote: Okolotochny
                        Do foreigners want for their help? I'm not talking about the amount of help, but about the fact

                        It is possible about the size: the Bolsheviks forever gave the German invaders a third of the country. For maintaining his power.
                        Today’s western border of Russia practically coincides with the Brest shame!
                      2. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 13 February 2018 13: 57
                        +2
                        Quote: Okolotochny
                        I’m not talking about the amount of help, but about the fact.

                        Were the Bolsheviks going to power wearing white gloves?
                      3. Lieutenant Teterin
                        Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 13: 57
                        +5
                        Of course there were contracts. Because the white movement was the successor of the Russian Empire and the Russian Republic, who waged war with the Germans in alliance with the Entente. The Bolsheviks who seized power — concluded a separate peace with the Germans. So it was logical for White to ask for help from the Allies in the struggle against the Bolsheviks who had captured their native country.
                    2. avva2012
                      avva2012 13 February 2018 15: 05
                      +7
                      That is, tanks that were not produced in the Republic of Ingushetia, is it "take it wise, what is it worthless to us"? The most modern weapon at that time? And what else could they give? They didn’t have a "death star," and so, against the Bolsheviks, do you think they would not have given? You, along with Starikov, are very similar to people "mowing under the insane." The Marxist ideology, which promised not to leave stone to stone from the capitalists (read the Manifesto carefully) and they, that is, the capitalists, would calmly watch how Marxism wins in the country richest in resources? Do you, for id.otov, people think or impudent beyond measure?
                      1. avva2012
                        avva2012 13 February 2018 15: 08
                        +4
                        Let me remind you: "The history of all hitherto existing societies was the history of the struggle of the classes.
                        The free and slave, patrician and plebeian, landowner and serf, master and apprentice, in short, oppressing and oppressed, were in eternal antagonism towards each other, waged a continuous, sometimes hidden, now obvious struggle, always ending in a revolutionary reconstruction of the entire public building or the general death of those fighting classes ".....
                        https://www.marxists.org/russkij/marx/1848/manife
                        sto.htm # ch1
            2. Hantengri
              Hantengri 13 February 2018 09: 38
              +7
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              Hm. You’d better teach a real story instead of quotes taken out of context. https://topwar.ru/974-kak-soyuzniki-belym-pomogal
              i.html

              To learn the "real" story according to Starikov? Are you serious? laughing

              For general development: https://books.google.co.uz/books?id=_dQwCgAAQBAJ&
              amp; printsec = frontcover & hl = ru # v = onepage & q
              & f = false
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 13 February 2018 09: 58
                +3
                Quote: HanTengri
                To learn the "real" story according to Starikov? Are you serious?

                "Russia. Crimea. History", "Stalin. We Remember Together", "NKVD Troops at the Front and in the Rear"?
                1. Hantengri
                  Hantengri 13 February 2018 10: 19
                  +4
                  But besides questions directly related to historical events, I really want to ask Mr. Starikov: what is plagiarism and why are the writers who use it despised?

                  What are the names of people who make unproven allegations? Where is the place for the “historians” who substantiate their concepts, using information only from sources such as the recollections of people in the dustbin of history? What is the name of the authors who dissect citations, giving the exact opposite meaning to the original text? ..

                  On Starikov’s VKontakte page, I tried to find out some points of his overwhelming “creativity”, and asked: “Nikolai Viktorovich, can you tell me what memoirs Bukharin wrote?” After a couple of hours I received the answer: "None." Then he was asked the following question: “And how to understand this?”

                  “However, when the real moment of dispersal of the parliament came at night, then a serious hysterical attack occurred with Lenin. "... We almost lost him," Bukharin will write in his memoirs. " (Quote from the book "Who killed RI?")

                  This “historian” did not risk entering into a dialogue with me anymore. (from)
                  Peter Balaev
                  "ANTI-Starikov. Why is history still a science?"
                  1. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 13 February 2018 13: 55
                    +2
                    Quote: HanTengri
                    I would like to ask Mr. Starikov: what is plagiarism and why are the writers who use it despised?

                    As for plagiarism, this is appropriation of authorship of other people's ideas, so I would like to ask Mr. Balaev not to use smart words, the meaning of which is unknown to him.
                    Quote: HanTengri
                    he will write in his memoirs Bukharin. " (Quote from the book "Who killed RI?")

                    As for the word memoirs, it is quite likely that the speech was about a banal typo - at first it was a question of Bonch-Bruyevich’s memoirs.
                    In addition, Kamenev S. takes this moment apart.
                    https://bookz.ru/authors/sergei-kremlev/lenin-v-_
                    335 / page-7-lenin-v-_335.html
                    At the same time, he first refutes the fact that Lenin had a nervous breakdown accompanied by laughter, then he cites Kedrov’s recollections that Lenin:
                    “At the most interesting moments, especially during the speech of the elected chairman of the meeting, Chernov ... Ilyich laughs uncontrollably”
                    But then he announces that Kedrov supposedly mixed up different meetings.
              2. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 10: 41
                +7
                I already answered above, I will answer you too — the article does not value the conclusions of Mr. Starikov, but the quotes from Denikin.
                1. Hantengri
                  Hantengri 13 February 2018 11: 20
                  +4
                  Old people are glorious in that they love to overshoot quotes and invent non-existent memoirs. A link to the analysis of his "historical method" I gave above. hi
                  1. Lieutenant Teterin
                    Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 12: 28
                    +4
                    I agree with you, Starikov is very specific. But what makes the article that I bring so valuable is the fact that Denikin’s quotes given in it are easily checked against the text of the really existing Denikin’s “Essays of Russian Troubles”.
                2. avva2012
                  avva2012 14 February 2018 02: 29
                  +2
                  For whom are quotes from a beaten general valuable? For the same disadvantages? As one character says, "everyone has an excuse, like a hole ..." in the form of a physiological hole.
          4. Olgovich
            Olgovich 13 February 2018 10: 26
            +8
            Quote: avva2012
            Naturally, the FSE lied.

            Not tortured to highlight in bold? lol
            These figures are Tears in comparison with the weapons captured by the Bolsheviks, 12 millionth Russian Army.
            And it was the betrayal of the allies (non-delivery of the necessary equipment and weapons) that caused the defeat.
            1. Okolotochny
              Okolotochny 13 February 2018 12: 56
              +8
              Olgovich, here
              And it was the betrayal of the allies (non-delivery of the necessary equipment and weapons) that caused the defeat.
              most Russian history teachers will disagree with you. Main reasons:
              1. The disunity of the white movement - single and indivisible, monarchy, republic, etc. They could not even agree among themselves, they spoke from different parts of Russia, at different times. What is interesting is the senior officers.
              2. Arrival of the interventionists - for the people it was a red rag for the bull.

              And the Reds acted together, finding support from the people.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 13 February 2018 13: 24
                +3
                Quote: Okolotochny
                1. The disunity of the white movement - single and indivisible, monarchy, republic, etc. They could not even agree among themselves, they spoke from different parts of Russia, at different times. .

                Naturally: the people of ALL views and currents were united only in the fact that the usurpers of power should be fought back, i.e. restore the will of the people!
                Quote: Okolotochny
                And the Reds acted together, finding support from the people.

                Yeah, almost 50% of the deserters in the army, and this, with the wildest repressions against their families, is "support"!
                1. Okolotochny
                  Okolotochny 13 February 2018 17: 31
                  +10
                  Olgovich, so without the support of the people, the Reds would not have succeeded. It turns out that the whites lost because the help of the “allies” was small and insufficient, and the reds did not have the support of the population? And who did she have? Do whites? And why then lost the red, if the people were for them? The puzzle, huh?
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 15 February 2018 10: 27
                    +1
                    Quote: Okolotochny
                    And who did she have? Do whites?

                    White had-see. ELECTION results in Inst. Sobr.
                    Quote: Okolotochny
                    And why then lost the red, if the people were for them? The puzzle, huh?

                    In gr. took part in the war Five percent of the population, Fifty percent took part in the elections. Do you catch the difference?
                    In the gateway, the bandit is also stronger than a normal person. The puzzle, huh?
                2. Okolotochny
                  Okolotochny 13 February 2018 17: 35
                  +10
                  Naturally: people of ALL views and currents were they are united only in that the usurpers of power must be fought back, i.e. restore the will of the people!

                  So why DON'T GIVE? Generals and admirals with combat experience behind them? They were divided. And the reason is not at all a small amount of help to the "allies." They did not have unity. In his views on the future, someone exceeded personal ambitions. And the Reds had unity. Even without the help of the "allies."
            2. avva2012
              avva2012 13 February 2018 15: 32
              +5
              Not tortured to highlight in bold?
              And you, what is so caring today? Nurse, didn’t forget to endure the duck and it was freshened up in the room? Believe me, good irony starts with self-irony, and you have a tight time with it, as well as with the reliability of what you write here. It is difficult to say what the problem is, but perhaps the ability to humor, sarcasm, irony, is combined with intelligence and vice versa, if there is one, a person is able to joke. ps I will not say what I get with sarcasm, but you have a very difficult case. Leave, you are interesting to others.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 13 February 2018 16: 52
                +1
                Quote: avva2012
                And you, what is so caring today? Nurse, I didn’t forget to endure the duck and the room freshened up?

                Do you think duck removal is so beneficial for you? lol
                Quote: avva2012
                Believe me, good irony begins with self-irony, and you have a tight time with it, as well as with the reliability of what you write here.

                Why would I believe you constantly lying-believe? belay
                Quote: avva2012
                It is hard to say, what is the problem, but perhaps the ability to humor, sarcasm, irony, combined with intelligence and vice versa, if there is one, a person is able to joke.

                The fact that you (Klitschko-2) have difficulty expressing your thoughts has been noticed for a long time. And, sadly, constant exercises for the future do not suit you request
                Quote: avva2012
                ps I will not say what I get with sarcasm, but you have a very difficult case. Leave, you are interesting to others.

                Where did you see me ... sarcasm, dear man? belay lol
                Falling ...
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 14 February 2018 02: 45
                  +3
                  Here. In the form of emoticons, distortion of words, repetition of the opponent of his own words, all these are your "tanker, Klitschko 2". Rather, you think this is sarcasm, irony. Tight with associations, oh, how tight. Everything that goes beyond the training manual, for you already causes a blockage of the thought process. For a long time already there were suspicions that similar, to you, activity, dries brains. Now, we can say, confirmation is received. I hope Science will not forget you. Perhaps the descendants will not erect a monument, but, alas, I am not Pavlov.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 14 February 2018 07: 55
                    +1
                    Quote: avva2012
                    Here. In the form of emoticons, distortion of words, repetition of the opponent of his own words, all these are your "tanker, Klitschko 2". Rather, you think this is sarcasm, irony

                    Tanker and Klitschko-2 is not irony and not sarcasm, this is a statement of FACTS. Do you recall your nicknames? lol
                    Quote: avva2012
                    Tight with associations, oh, how tight.

                    Your ratings are very important to me! lol
                    Quote: avva2012
                    Everything that goes beyond the training manual, for you already causes a blockage of the thought process.

                    lol
                    Quote: avva2012
                    .. Perhaps the descendants will not erect a monument, but, alas, and I'm not Pavlov.

                    belay And now IN RUSSIAN express your "thought", comrade. Klitschko 2.
                    hi
                    1. avva2012
                      avva2012 14 February 2018 12: 19
                      +3
                      I knew that you would not understand, it wasn’t written for you, but did someone appreciate it? smile But for you, personally, I’ll still explain. The monument was erected to the dog, as a symbol of the animal that served science. Including physiologist Pavlov.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 14 February 2018 12: 25
                        +1
                        Quote: avva2012
                        I knew that you would not understand, it wasn’t written for you, but did someone appreciate it?

                        Who, nicknames, will understand you? yes
                        Quote: avva2012
                        Monument delivered dog. Includingphysiologist Pavlov.

                        Comrade Klitschko2, you are in shock today. good
                        Pavlov, among .... dogs belay lol laughing
                        PS In Russian, I must say, not "including", but "EXCEPT" hi
                    2. avva2012
                      avva2012 14 February 2018 15: 09
                      +3
                      They did not understand, well, and did not need, lissencephaly, rarely, but it occurs. smile
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 14 February 2018 15: 23
                        0
                        Quote: avva2012
                        They did not understand, well, and did not need, lissencephaly, rarely, but it occurs.

                        Teach RUSSIAN LANGUAGE, Comrade Klitschko2, so that more monuments do not work out "dog Pavlov" lol laughing wink
          5. Monarchist
            Monarchist 13 February 2018 12: 58
            +4
            Kamrad Avva, you brought some interesting data, but on our site there was already evidence that the Entente was not in a very “hurry” to help Denikin. Denikin himself has completely different numbers in his book: Essays on Russian Troubles. Apparently, Maltsev knows better what and how the "Volunteer" army was equipped, or maybe as they say: "truth between the legs."
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 13 February 2018 15: 41
              +6
              Vyacheslav, you, like me, lived a little bit, saw something? Denikin, the beaten military commander. These are "clumsy excuses," as they said in childhood. Compare with the memoirs of fascist generals. There, after all, are solid if. If it weren’t for frost, if it weren’t for du.rak, Hitler, etc., etc. The property, this, of losers, is to blame on someone. What is better, Denikin? Find Maltsev's book and there, obviously, there are links at the end. Read them, and then tell someone who is between your legs.
        2. rkkasa xnumx
          rkkasa xnumx 13 February 2018 09: 07
          +10
          Quote: Dzmicer
          it clearly follows from your statement that the good government did not have any substantial support

          From my statement it follows that comparing support from STATES with support from VOLUNTEERS is stupid.
          The Reds won not because they were supported by volunteers, but because the vast majority of their own citizens were on their side.
          Just as an example, in the war against the USSR, many volunteers fought on the side of Germany, but there were almost no foreign volunteers on our side. However, Germany lost.
          Or in Spain in the 30s. Which side were the more volunteers? And who won?
          So volunteers, this is the tenth thing.
          1. EwgenyZ
            EwgenyZ 14 February 2018 00: 09
            +2
            Quote: rkkasa 81
            The Reds won not because they were supported by volunteers, but because the vast majority of their own citizens were on their side.

            Well, if you follow your logic, the Reds in 1991 did not receive “people's support” and the USSR fell apart! Then why all the lamentations and references of the neocommis to the offensive attitude of the authorities towards the will of the people expressed in the referendum of March 17, 1991? Why at the beginning of the year did the people "stand" for the USSR, and at the end did not "lift a finger" to save the country? Since people let the country collapse quietly, then there was no "support of the people" for its preservation?
        3. EwgenyZ
          EwgenyZ 13 February 2018 23: 49
          +1
          Quote: Dzmicer
          Do you yourself understand that it clearly follows from your statement that there was no substantial support from the STATES for good?

          On hardly, it was just a "figure of words", the main thing is to express "approval" of the article, that's all.
        4. Alex
          Alex 3 March 2018 20: 08
          0
          Quote: Dzmicer
          Do you yourself understand that it clearly follows from your statement that there was no substantial support from the STATES for good?

          But what about Churchill’s statement about Denikin’s army, “This is MY army”? Or did Sir Winston mean exclusively the power of his charm?
      2. Albatroz
        Albatroz 13 February 2018 10: 26
        +4
        That is, on one side there are whites with support from the STATES - France, England, Germany, Japan, USA, etc. And on the other - the Reds, on the side of which, Chinese and Magyar VOLUNTEERS, without any support from the STATES

        The RSFSR was also not alone, as it were: Turkey, the Bavarian and Hungarian Soviet republics, the Finnish social republic. But the possibilities and quality of support and interaction, the power of states and the duration of their existence are the third question.
        1. rkkasa xnumx
          rkkasa xnumx 13 February 2018 10: 59
          +5
          Quote: Albatroz
          The RSFSR was also not alone, as it were: Turkey, the Bavarian and Hungarian Soviet republics, the Finnish social republic

          Yeah ... and the Reds got a lot of help from these mighty states?
          Quote: Albatroz
          the possibilities and quality of support and interaction, the power of states and the duration of their existence - the third question

          No, this is a matter of primary importance.
        2. Alex
          Alex 3 March 2018 20: 19
          +1
          Quote: Albatroz
          The RSFSR was also not alone, as it were: Turkey, the Bavarian and Hungarian Soviet republics, the Finnish social republic.

          Interestingly, is the support of the Kumbo-Yumbo tribe also essential? Do you yourself even believe in what you wrote?
    3. avt
      avt 13 February 2018 09: 53
      +8
      Quote: Albatroz
      And the anti-state in white was no more than in red. Someone relied on the Germans, someone on the allies, and someone on the Chinese and Magyars)

      bully Oh, I have these crunchbun fans! bully The Reds generally preached the idea of ​​World Revolution and Internationalism, so that they have
      Quote: Albatroz
      Chinese and Magyars)
      , Serbs, from prisoners by the way and other people who went for the idea. There is no comparison with the whites, who were directly supervised, like Kolchak’s mission, led by General Janin, who later leaked it by the way, backed up by specific interventionists in the rear. If you do not see the difference - your trouble, but not our problems.
      1. Albatroz
        Albatroz 13 February 2018 10: 35
        +6
        I'm not a fan of crunch buns
        Maybe someone wants to rotate loaves wink
        Joke
        DIRECTLY supervised as Kolchak’s mission led by General Janin,

        They curated so well that they surrendered. We used foreign aid to a greater or lesser extent. And (as Denikin or Wrangel write) - while it was needed. That is, in their own interests.
        By the way, when Mannerheim asked Kolchak the question of a possible attack on Petrograd in exchange for territory, Kolchak said: "I do not sell Russian land."
        And someone leaked a bunch of territories across the Brest Peace - just to sit in an armchair.
        And it doesn’t happen like this - we are alone good (white, fluffy, RSFSR), and all the rest are entirely villains, enemies and fools (all the rest).
        1. avt
          avt 13 February 2018 11: 14
          +5
          Quote: Albatroz
          They curated so well that they surrendered.

          A used condom is also thrown away. In the case of Kolchak, they also grabbed a piece of gold, which he had advanced for the purchase of weapons.
          Quote: Albatroz
          We used foreign aid to a greater or lesser extent. And (as Denikin or Wrangel write) - while it was needed.

          bully And what about the used condom, and even thrown out the window onto the street in memoirs, scribbling there, the one who threw it there is not interested. But the children are unreasonable, they found an object under the window, thoughtlessly, they could inflate it like a balloon, which, in fact, the "nobles" who threw off their bast shoes in 1991 from the noble assembly of the Proletarsky district did so.
          Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
          In other words, do you acknowledge that the red didn't give a damn about Russia because they fought for the utopia of the “World Revolution”, and Russia was just a consumable for them?

          bully Is it really late? bully That's how they lived, they lived, but suddenly they read the comments on VO and ... it dawned on us! bully And Marx did not try to read with Engels, and then Lenin? Well, at least a little work, where ,, The ghost wanders through Europe, the ghost of communism ... "The manifest is called. bully Try in Lenin's way, “To study, to study, and to study again.” The bourgeoisie at the okiyan do not disdain to study these things at universities to this day.
          1. Lieutenant Teterin
            Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 13: 08
            +4
            Before you gibberish, you would read Mr. Samsonov’s articles similar to the one we are discussing now. He then ignores the works of Messrs. Marx, Engels, and Ulyanov, calling the Bolsheviks "statesmen" who think about the fate of Russia, which is fundamentally wrong. My colleagues and I seek to refute his insinuations, and you have just brilliantly confirmed our position.
            I have only one question for you: Do you also share the position of the Bolshevik gentlemen that the “world revolution” is more valuable than Russia?
        2. Looking for
          Looking for 13 February 2018 17: 35
          +3
          The Brest peace was the only right decision for Russia at that time. A separate peace is always a salvation for a weaker opponent. I WANT TO ASK ALL THIS MONARCHIC GRAB IF IF GERMANY HAS SEPARATED A SEPARATE WORLD IN 1945, I WAS 1945. and there would be victory in general ??? !!!
          1. Dart2027
            Dart2027 13 February 2018 19: 12
            +1
            Quote: Seeker
            IF GERMANY HAVE CONCLUDED A SEPARATE WORLD IN 1945 WITH A WEST, would 1945 be the year of Victory. And would there be Victory at all ???

            There was no victory in 1945? What do you smoke?
          2. Olgovich
            Olgovich 14 February 2018 08: 58
            +1
            Quote: Seeker
            a separate world is always salvation for a weaker opponent

            That's right, therefore, the Bolsheviks also SAVED Germany, which had already lost, from being defeated by Russian bread and Russian gold-for the preservation of their power.
      2. Lieutenant Teterin
        Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 10: 44
        +6
        In other words, do you acknowledge that the red didn't give a damn about Russia because they fought for the utopia of the “World Revolution”, and Russia was just a consumable for them?
        1. Bouncer
          Bouncer 13 February 2018 11: 55
          +19
          I applaud you Poruchik and Olgovich
          At the root of everything is that social experiment was for someone the most important thing.
          The rest is just a toolkit
          And as written above
          And someone leaked a bunch of territories across the Brest Peace - just to sit in an armchair.
          - vivid confirmation of this. Hold on to power - there will be a world revolution and all that. And Russian interests will come in fifth place.
          A beast encircled in a lair - it can be beaten off (I mean Civil), and even more so the one who has the key resources and capacities of central Russia and not the miserable crumbs of the outskirts (that is, the red ones) will win.
          The resources of the core of the empire were enough - to fight off all: the Whites, the Entente, the Fourth Union. And to conquer all civilian life under paralysis of the economy and military communism. What resources were there!
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 13 February 2018 12: 35
            +4
            Quote: Bouncer
            At the root of everything is that social experiment was for someone the most important thing.

            So Ilych bluntly said to him: " It’s more interesting to participate in EXPERIENCE! "
            He set EXPERIENCES over Russia, b! angry
        2. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene 13 February 2018 18: 33
          +4
          Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
          In other words, do you acknowledge that the red didn't give a damn about Russia because they fought for the utopia of the “World Revolution”, and Russia was just a consumable for them?

          Instead of Starikov, you are better than V.I. Lenin and I.V. Read Stalin. The patriotism of the working masses is distinguished by the patriotism of the bourgeoisie
          IN AND. Lenin emphasized that the Bolsheviks did not deny the slogan of "defending the fatherland" in general, but only in a reactionary war that only benefited the capitalists.
          IN AND. Lenin wrote on this occasion: “We have been defenders since October 25, 1917. We are for the“ defense of the fatherland, ”but the domestic war we are heading for is a war for the socialist fatherland, for socialism, as the fatherland, for the Soviet Republic, as a detachment World Army of Socialism ”(VI Lenin Works, fourth edition. vol. 27, p. 136-137).
          The foundations of Soviet patriotism were laid in October 1917. I.V. Stalin said: “In the past, we did not have and could not have a fatherland. But now that we have overthrown capitalism, and we, the people, have power, we have a fatherland and we will defend its independence ”(Stalin I. Works, vol. 13. M., 1952, p. 39).
          1. Dart2027
            Dart2027 13 February 2018 19: 13
            +1
            Quote: Alexander Green
            “We have been defenders since October 25, 1917. We are for the“ defense of the fatherland, ”but the domestic war we are heading for is a war for the socialist fatherland, for socialism as a fatherland, for the Soviet Republic, as a detachment of the world army of socialism”

            That is, not for Russia, but for socialism?
            1. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 13 February 2018 20: 01
              +5
              Quote: Dart2027
              That is, not for Russia, but for socialism?

              For socialist Russia. And why is it bad? All honestly work, nobody exploits anyone.
              1. Gopnik
                Gopnik 13 February 2018 20: 35
                +1
                And where is the word "Russia"?
                1. Hantengri
                  Hantengri 13 February 2018 21: 24
                  +3
                  Quote: Gopnik
                  And where is the word "Russia"?

                  You already decide: you "checkers", or "go"? laughing
                  1. Gopnik
                    Gopnik 13 February 2018 22: 00
                    +2
                    I decided a long time ago, I’m Russia
                    1. Alexander Greene
                      Alexander Greene 14 February 2018 01: 06
                      +5
                      Quote: Gopnik
                      I decided a long time ago, I’m Russia

                      And why gopnik Russia? To arrange a gop-stop?
                    2. Hantengri
                      Hantengri 14 February 2018 10: 29
                      +2
                      Quote: Gopnik
                      I decided a long time ago, I’m Russia
                      Those. You "checkers" (the word "Russia", given explicitly)? laughing
                      Quote: Alexander Green
                      “We have been defenders since October 25, 1917. We are for the“ defense of the fatherland, ”but the domestic war we are going to is a war for the socialist fatherland, for socialism as a fatherland, for the Soviet Republic, as a detachment of the world army of socialism” (Lenin V.I. Works, fourth edition, vol. 27, p. 136-137).

                      And since here the word "Russia", in explicit form, is not given, then Lenin, stopudovo, means Honduras !? lol
                      1. Gopnik
                        Gopnik 14 February 2018 13: 11
                        +1
                        Including and Honduras, yes, which will inevitably affect the world socialist revolution, according to fool dreamers
              2. Dart2027
                Dart2027 13 February 2018 22: 52
                +1
                Quote: Alexander Green
                For socialist Russia. And why is it bad?

                Socialism and Russia are still different things.
                1. Alexander Greene
                  Alexander Greene 14 February 2018 01: 05
                  +4
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  Socialism and Russia are still different things.

                  Who told you that? In Russia, the common people always had a communal, social way of life, Marx and Engels even considered the Russian community as an element of socialism.
                  1. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 14 February 2018 06: 21
                    +3
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    Who told you that?

                    The Bolsheviks when they began the struggle with Great Russian chauvinism.
                    And the fact that Russia existed long before the ideas of socialism, and still exists.
                    1. Alexander Greene
                      Alexander Greene 14 February 2018 21: 11
                      +2
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      The Bolsheviks when they began the struggle with Great Russian chauvinism.
                      And the fact that Russia existed long before the ideas of socialism, and still exists.

                      Firstly, Great-Russian (great-power) chauvinism has nothing to do with Russia, as such.
                      After all, what is, generally great-power chauvinism? This is the aggressive policy of the bourgeoisie, aimed at enslaving other nations, dominating one nation over another, inciting ethnic hatred, and the bourgeoisie is not even a part of Russia.
                      And secondly, if we assume that Russia is an ancient country, then on its territory, as elsewhere, there was a primitive communist communist society.
                      1. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 14 February 2018 22: 19
                        +1
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        First, Great Russian (great power) chauvinism has nothing to do with Russia, as such
                        Kemsky parish to give?
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        and the bourgeoisie is not even a part of Russia
                        And then who?
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        then on its territory, as elsewhere, there was a primitive communal communist society.
                        That is, communism is possible only among savages, with virtually zero level of technical development?
                      2. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 15 February 2018 22: 10
                        +1
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        That is, communism is possible only among savages, with virtually zero level of technical development?

                        Dear, what school did you study in with the USE? In the USSR, even schoolchildren for UO knew about socio-economic formations and the direction of progress
                2. Hantengri
                  Hantengri 14 February 2018 10: 38
                  +1
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  Socialism and Russia are still different things.

                  But feudalism and Russia, capitalism and Russia are the same thing? Maybe, nevertheless, do not confuse the country and the OEF?
                  1. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 14 February 2018 12: 08
                    +2
                    Quote: HanTengri
                    But feudalism and Russia, capitalism and Russia are the same thing?

                    No feudalism is feudalism, capitalism is capitalism, and Russia is Russia. But the same applies to socialism.
                    1. Hantengri
                      Hantengri 14 February 2018 23: 02
                      +2
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      No feudalism is feudalism, capitalism is capitalism, and Russia is Russia. But the same applies to socialism.

                      Your logic is strange ... can you name the period of history when Russia was just Russia and there was not even any, even the most overwhelming OEF in it? laughing No, well, if you can’t with Russia, call any other state without a dominant OEF !!! laughing

                      PS This is to the effect that statements like:

                      Quote: Dart2027
                      Socialism and Russia are still different things.


                      Quote: Dart2027
                      No feudalism is feudalism, capitalism is capitalism, and Russia is Russia.

                      Are nonsense well oh very gray mare.
                      1. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 15 February 2018 05: 56
                        +1
                        Quote: HanTengri
                        Can you name the period of history when Russia was just Russia and there wasn’t any, even the most overwhelming OEF in it?

                        A country is a country, and a political and economic system is a political and economic system. For example, in England and France there was a monarchy, but this did not make them one state.
          2. Olgovich
            Olgovich 14 February 2018 08: 59
            +1
            Quote: Alexander Green
            Instead of Starikov, you are better than V.I. Lenin and I.V. Read Stalin. The patriotism of the working masses is distinguished by the patriotism of the bourgeoisie

            Bredyatinu read for yourself. By the way, it’s clear what you are reading. lol
            I.V. Stalin said: “In the past we did not have and could not have a fatherland

            They didn’t have, but normal Russian people- the Fatherland HAS already been almost a thousand years old!
            1. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 14 February 2018 21: 13
              +3
              Quote: Olgovich
              Quote: Alexander Green
              Instead of Starikov, you are better than V.I. Lenin and I.V. Read Stalin. The patriotism of the working masses is distinguished by the patriotism of the bourgeoisie
              Read bredyatin yourself.

              All smart people read Lenin, one you rest against.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 15 February 2018 10: 36
                +1
                Quote: Alexander Green
                All smart people read Lenin, one you rest against.

                Smart people certainly read one grandfather to wonder at the depths dullness, rudeness, naivety, Russophobia, cruelty and illiteracy of the client.
                1. Alexander Greene
                  Alexander Greene 15 February 2018 22: 18
                  +2
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Smart people, of course, read one grandfather to be surprised at the depth of stupidity, rudeness, naivety, Russophobia, cruelty and illiteracy of the client.

                  And you read, maybe change your attitude. Of those who read the works of V.I. Lenin, no one has said so. Again, one you ...
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 16 February 2018 09: 13
                    0
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    And you read, maybe change your attitude. Of those who read the works of V.I. Lenin, no one has said so.

                    In RUSSIAN, do not understand? I will repeat
                    :Smart peoplecertainly read one grandpa, hto be surprised the depth of stupidity, rudeness, naivety, Russophobia, cruelty and illiteracy of the client.

                    Those. read. And I recommend that you read the rare “state” and “revolution” work: the “work and state” revolution: EVERYTHING that he “cracked” there turned out to be Nonsense: about the uselessness of the army, the police, etc. yes
                    1. Alexander Greene
                      Alexander Greene 16 February 2018 20: 17
                      +3
                      Quote: Olgovich

                      In RUSSIAN, do not understand? I will repeat
                      :Smart peoplecertainly read one grandpa, hto be surprised the depth of stupidity, rudeness, naivety, Russophobia, cruelty and illiteracy of the client.

                      Those. read. And I recommend that you read the rare “state” and “revolution” work: the “work and state” revolution: EVERYTHING that he “cracked” there turned out to be Nonsense: about the uselessness of the army, the police, etc. yes

                      I understood: you are not only learning, but treating is too late.
                  2. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 17 February 2018 06: 23
                    0
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    Got it: You are not only learning, but treating is too late.

                    Can you really understand something ......? belay lol laughing
                    1. Alexander Greene
                      Alexander Greene 17 February 2018 17: 30
                      +3
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Can you really understand something ......?

                      I’m not like you, you don’t want to understand that the pendulum again swung to the left side. Your horror stories about socialism of the end of 80-90 they do not act on anyone.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 18 February 2018 08: 06
                        0
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        I’m not like you, you don’t want to understand that the pendulum swung again to the left side. Your horror stories about socialism of the end of 80-90 they do not act on anyone.

                        These are the brains "swinging", not the "pendulum"yes
      3. Gopnik
        Gopnik 13 February 2018 14: 21
        +2
        Quote: avt
        The Reds generally preached the idea of ​​World Revolution and Internationalism,


        Yes you are right. The Reds were anti-state and anti-Russian forces. Unlike the patriots of the “whites,” who fought for Russia.
        1. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene 13 February 2018 18: 37
          +4
          Quote: Gopnik
          Yes you are right. The Reds were anti-state and anti-Russian forces. Unlike the patriots of the “whites,” who fought for Russia.

          Just surprisingly, the Reds defeated the whites under the slogan "The Socialist Fatherland is in danger!" And the peoples of all of Russia: both the center and the outskirts supported it.
          1. Dart2027
            Dart2027 13 February 2018 19: 15
            +1
            Quote: Alexander Green
            The socialist fatherland is in danger!

            They won under the slogan that everyone will live richly (land for peasants, factory workers), though everything turned out to be more complicated.
            1. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 13 February 2018 20: 03
              +6
              Quote: Dart2027
              They won under the slogan that everyone will live richly (land for peasants, factory workers), though everything turned out to be more complicated.

              "For a rich life"? Give at least one such slogan among the slogans of the civil war.
              Under such a slogan, the USSR was destroyed in 1991, they said that if we did not have Soviet power, we would live like in a "rich" Europe. But they didn’t say that not everyone will heal like that.
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 13 February 2018 22: 55
                +2
                Quote: Alexander Green
                "For a rich life"? Give at least one such slogan among the slogans of the civil war.

                Do you have other explanations for the slogan "land for peasants and factory workers"? Well, how else can this be understood?
                Quote: Alexander Green
                Under such a slogan, the USSR was destroyed in 1991.

                And there is. As they say there is nothing new, but there is a forgotten old. Now, by the way, they say the same thing - they say take away Putin’s power and ...
            2. Hantengri
              Hantengri 13 February 2018 21: 44
              +3
              Quote: Dart2027
              They won under the slogan that everyone will live richly (land for peasants, factory workers), though everything turned out to be more complicated.

              Please explain by what superlogical reasoning wassat You deduced from: "Land to the peasants! Factories to the workers! Peace to the peoples!" - "everyone will live richly"?
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 13 February 2018 22: 54
                +1
                Quote: HanTengri
                by what superlogical conclusions wassat did you deduce from: "Land to the peasants! Workers' factories! Peace be to the peoples!"

                Do you have other explanations for the slogan "land for peasants and factory workers"? Well, how else can this be understood?
                1. Alexander Greene
                  Alexander Greene 14 February 2018 01: 19
                  +4
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  Do you have other explanations for the slogan "land for peasants and factory workers"? Well, how else can this be understood?

                  Of course. Stalin understood this: "Ensuring the maximum satisfaction of the constantly growing material and cultural needs of the whole society through the continuous growth and improvement of socialist production based on high technology." But the satisfaction is not of all needs, but one that leads to full welfare and free, comprehensive development of all members of society, to the elimination of all social inequality. After all, the goal of socialism, defined by the founders of scientific communism, is the destruction of classes.
                  1. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 14 February 2018 06: 23
                    +1
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    Of course. Stalin understood this

                    He is yes. But some Vanya, who had three classes of the parish church, did not know such words.
                2. Hantengri
                  Hantengri 14 February 2018 10: 43
                  +2
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  Do you have other explanations for the slogan "land for peasants and factory workers"? Well, how else can this be understood?

                  Do you have a binary mindset? Only 0-poverty and 1-wealth? There are no intermediate states?
                  1. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 14 February 2018 12: 11
                    0
                    Quote: HanTengri
                    Only 0-poverty and 1-wealth? There are no intermediate states?

                    That is, with the fact that the people did not go for abstract ideas, but for concrete promises of material wealth, do you agree?
                    1. Alexander Greene
                      Alexander Greene 14 February 2018 21: 16
                      +3
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      He is yes. But some Vanya, who had three classes of the parish church, did not know such words.

                      Quote: Dart2027
                      That is, with the fact that the people did not go for abstract ideas, but for concrete promises of material wealth, do you agree?

                      When Stalin wrote this, there wasn’t any such “Van” anymore, they all finished a minimum of educational program, where they taught political literacy, and until they understood, they gave them Peace, land, work. “Vanya” with three classes didn’t think about enrichment. He just wanted to work honestly and live.
                      1. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 14 February 2018 22: 21
                        0
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        When Stalin wrote this, there weren’t any such “Van”

                        If you didn’t pay attention, then it’s about 1917, and it’s about those “Vanyas”.
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        “Vanya” with three classes didn’t think about enrichment.

                        And what prevented him from doing this before the revolution?
                      2. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 15 February 2018 22: 32
                        +2
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        “Vanya” with three classes didn’t think about enrichment.
                        And what prevented him from doing this before the revolution?

                        Don’t you know? Gathering his meager harvest on a piece of land and distributing his debts with his fist, Vanya sat down and thought what he would do until the next harvest.
                    2. Hantengri
                      Hantengri 14 February 2018 23: 32
                      +1
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      That is, with the fact that the people did not go for abstract ideas, but for concrete promises of material wealth, do you agree?

                      Not really, IMHO. The people (peasants) longed for the abstract "truth" and "justice", expressed, in accordance with the petty-bourgeois psychology of the peasantry (I. Me. My.), In a completely material division of landowner land. Workers are harder.
                      1. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 15 February 2018 05: 58
                        +1
                        Quote: HanTengri
                        expressed, in accordance with the petty-bourgeois psychology of the peasantry (I. Me. My.), in a completely material division of landowner land

                        Simply put, sought enrichment.
                        Quote: HanTengri
                        Workers are harder.

                        Well, how else to understand the "factory workers"?
    4. Monarchist
      Monarchist 13 February 2018 12: 41
      +6
      Albatross, you are absolutely right: in the conditions of utter confusion, when all the foundations collapsed, the course certainly began: "the war of all against all, based on what is at hand."
      Now it’s so good to sit on the sofa, disassemble what it was 100 years ago. And try in those conditions not to go crazy.
      White fought for his vision, and red for his vision of the future.
      1. Alexander Greene
        Alexander Greene 13 February 2018 18: 40
        +4
        Quote: Monarchist
        White fought for his vision, and red for his vision of the future.

        This is true, the white fought to regain the privileges of the overthrown classes to parasitize the people, and the red fought to rid the people of these parasites.
        1. Gopnik
          Gopnik 13 February 2018 20: 37
          +2
          Is that what you were taught in kindergarten? Level corresponds
          1. Alexander Greene
            Alexander Greene 14 February 2018 01: 23
            +4
            Quote: Gopnik
            Is that what you were taught in kindergarten? Level corresponds

            No, before. I absorbed it with mother’s milk. My parents lived under tsarism and I know a lot about that life firsthand.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 14 February 2018 09: 38
              +1
              Quote: Alexander Green
              My parents lived under tsarism and I know a lot about toh life firsthand.

              Do you understand what you should be in the area 95 years? lol
              1. Alexander Greene
                Alexander Greene 14 February 2018 18: 54
                +4
                Quote: Olgovich
                Do you understand what you should be around 95 years old?

                Is that bad? I was well preserved, did not drink, did not smoke, ate environmentally friendly Soviet products, wore Soviet clothes made from natural fabrics, I was not nervous that I would be fired from work and I would not pay the mortgage, so my brains would not wedge, "dead with braids" do not seem, I look 25-30 years younger. Everyone is jealous!
                1. Reptiloid
                  Reptiloid 14 February 2018 19: 54
                  +3
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Do you understand what you should be around 95 years old?

                  Is that bad? I ............., I look 25-30 years younger. Everyone is jealous!

                  Good evening, Alexander! How many meetings on TV with Veterans of the Great Patriotic War, Veterans of Labor, other honored people were on TV ... An amazingly strong socialist generation !!!!!! It’s good that there is evidence of that life. And I myself spoke with some elderly people personally, very interesting memories of many
                2. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 15 February 2018 10: 53
                  +1
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  Is that bad?

                  wonderful! but -falselyAs all among the Bolsheviks
                  1. Alexander Greene
                    Alexander Greene 15 February 2018 22: 37
                    +3
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    wonderful! but deceitfully, like all the Bolsheviks

                    And where did you see "deceitfully"?
                    I really: "... well preserved, did not drink, did not smoke, ate environmentally friendly Soviet products, wore Soviet clothes made from natural fabrics, I was not nervous that I would be fired from work and I would not pay the mortgage, so my brains would not be wedged , "dead with braids" do not seem, I look 25-30 years younger. Everyone is jealous! "
                    But you have a sick imagination, then you are "dead with braids" ghosts, then something else.
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 16 February 2018 09: 20
                      0
                      Quote: Alexander Green
                      А where did you see "lying"?

                      You, t. liar: You are neither 95 years old, nor 90, nor 85.
                      Quote: Alexander Green
                      I really: "... well preserved

                      Exempt Party Member, Member lol (instructor, lecturer) of the district committee or trade union committee is a large part of your "life".
                      1. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 16 February 2018 20: 21
                        +3
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        The freed party organizer, member (instructor, lecturer) of the district committee or trade union committee is a large part of your "life".

                        Well, you see, you yourself thought up everything for me, you are our dreamer ...
                    2. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 17 February 2018 06: 26
                      0
                      Quote: Alexander Green
                      Well, you see, you yourself thought up everything for me, you are our dreamer ...

                      Did you refute something, that is, a liar?
                      1. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 17 February 2018 17: 33
                        +3
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Did you refute something, that is, a liar?

                        What for? I like the way you fantasize, thereby making you more stupid.
    5. Serge khan
      Serge khan 15 February 2018 02: 20
      +2
      Some relied on the Germans, some on the allies, and some on the Chinese and Magyars

      Do not distort, feathered. “Someone” first tried to regain power on the Kaiser bayonets, then this “someone” switched to English and French supplies. And the opponents of "someone" took in their ranks volunteers - Hungarians, Latvians, Chinese. And by the way, Czechoslovakians,
      fighters of the Czechoslovak corps, who went over to the side of the Russian people who overthrew their vampires - among whom was, for example, the great writer Yaroslav Hasek.
  2. Olgovich
    Olgovich 13 February 2018 07: 28
    +7
    .
    Although in reality, whites were ordinary mercenaries of Russian pro-Western capital and global capital.

    . The author forgot that almost ALL the so-called The "Leninist Guard", which carried out the Thief, was recognized in the USSR in 1937-53 German, American, Japanese, Polish, Argentinean, etc. SPIENES yes and hired by the Nazis and the West. (People's Commissar Krylenko: it was true that he was making excuses that he “didn’t speak American.” But the Stalinist investigators pulled this venal hireling by the ear, as well as other sneaking and disguised enemies of the people !!
    And it dragged on, it seems .... from pre-revolutionary times. There were agents of the Mousavat rakhvedka and secret police, etc. I think the author will not argue with Stalinist justice?

    Shame on the mercenaries of the West Nahamkins, apfelbaums, Rosenfelds and other brilliants-mercenaries of the West (exposed in 1937), we carry out the thief on the instructions of the West, as it turns out !! yes
    1. apro
      apro 13 February 2018 07: 42
      +7
      Dear Olgovich, after the Peter the Great Romanov dynasty, whose was? Especially Catherine 1? And how much German blood was there in them? And who were the Gottopol Holstein people, what interests did they represent? Almost the entire noble brethren who did not become impoverished were foreigners in their country
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 13 February 2018 07: 55
        +6
        Quote: apro
        Dear Olgovich, after the Peter the Great Romanov dynasty, whose was? Especially Catherine 1? And how much German blood was in them?

        We are not talking about blood, but the SALES of the West, which, it turns out, among the very top of the Bolsheviks, was without count
        Yes, the whites were angels against this background, among them there were no people at the level of the people's commissars of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Defense, the NKVD, the MGB, financial-foreign spies and fascists yes
        1. apro
          apro 13 February 2018 08: 11
          +11
          Quote: Olgovich
          Yes, the whites were angels against this background, among them there were no people at the level of the people's commissars of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Defense, the NKVD, the MGB, financial-foreign spies and fascists

          Here from this place in more detail. But it’s not clear whether the kolchak is included or not. Or the wrangel which the fleet stole from the country and sold out. Or Denikin taught Amers how to fight the USSR or Semenov is a very colorful character in the Japanese service. ... well, you know what flag.
          1. Lieutenant Teterin
            Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 09: 18
            +6
            Wrangel actually took the fleet out of the hands of those who sought to sink the fleet.
            6 June (24 May) 1918, Lenin's envoy arrives on the Black Sea. This is a member of the Marine Board sailor Vakhrameev. He has with him the report of the Chief of the Marine General Staff with a concise resolution of Vladimir Ilyich:

            "In view of the hopelessness of the situation proved by the highest military authorities, destroy the fleet immediately."
            https://topwar.ru/830-pochemu-lenin-i-trockij-uto
            pili-russkij-flot-chast-2.html
            Good "patriots-statesmen" sinking ships capable of becoming a significant force of the foreign policy power of the state ...
            1. apro
              apro 13 February 2018 09: 47
              +2
              After the civil war ??? I understand everything but that!
              1. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 10: 45
                +5
                Would you like to leave the ships to those who tried to drown them?
            2. avt
              avt 13 February 2018 10: 02
              +5
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              Wrangel actually took the fleet out of the hands of those who sought to sink the fleet.

              Yeah, and they sold all the less commercially profitable vessels. The rest was easier to sell than to drag in the USSR, which was done.
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              Good "patriots-statesmen" sinking ships capable of becoming a significant force of the foreign policy power of the state ...

              bully fool Aspadin ,, patriot "didn’t forget to mention under what conditions a part of the squadron was flooded and at the same time the fact that the remnants left for the Germans? What Wrangel was then then ??? Or new circumstances opened-Wrangel served Kaiser !? wassat Although why let the brains as simple as a mooing, the fact that in fact, unlike the Baltic, there was simply nowhere to go red with the ships, as Lenin’s telegram testifies, but this is not important, but it’s important to walk exclusively for
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              Good "patriots-statesmen" sinking ships

              Quote: parusnik
              Olgovich somehow forgot how during the WWI the liberal press poisoned the imperial family, hinting at its connection with Germany.
              Phew! Which is harmful. bully Took, and vulgarized everything bully And the fact that it was not the Bolsheviks, but quite a true guardian of the monarchy who spread rumors, left it for a snack. bully
              1. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 10: 50
                +5
                Quote: avt
                Yeah, and they sold all the less commercially profitable vessels.

                When there was no other choice, the evacuated army began to starve.
                Quote: avt
                there was simply nowhere to go red with the ships

                Yeah. First they unleashed the Civil, then the shameful “peace” was signed with the Germans, and then “there is nowhere to go.” Tell me, and your Bolsheviks, when they gave half the country to the Germans, what did they think?
                1. avt
                  avt 13 February 2018 11: 20
                  +2
                  Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
                  When there was no other choice, the evacuated army began to starve.

                  bully Is it necessary to be sad and cry from this place? bully
                  Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
                  Tell me, and your Bolsheviks, when they gave half the country to the Germans, what did they think?

                  request bully Well this is decidedly impossible ..... bully Yes, unlike the different, temporary "rulers and other White Guards, it’s quite a bit that
                  Every revolution is only worth something if it can defend itself.
                  by any means available.
                  It’s not enough to take power, it needs to be kept!
                  What Lenin did with a company of like-minded people of varying composition.
            3. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 13 February 2018 18: 45
              +3
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              Good "patriots-statesmen" sinking ships that can become a significant force of the foreign policy power of the state ..

              Interestingly, what would you write if the Bolsheviks did not drown the fleet and gave it to the Germans? A scream would probably be .....
            4. revnagan
              revnagan 19 March 2018 17: 04
              0
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              Good "patriots-statesmen" sinking ships capable of becoming a significant force of the foreign policy power of the state ...

              ... German. The fleet was supposed to go to the Germans, according to the conditions of the Brest Peace. Didn’t they know? So, it was necessary to give the fleet to the Fritz? And the foreign political power of which state would you like to strengthen the Black Sea Fleet?
          2. parusnik
            parusnik 13 February 2018 09: 37
            +12
            apro
            Olgovich somehow forgot how during the WWI the liberal press persecuted the imperial family, hinting at her connection with Germany. And the empress was like a German spy at all with the liberals. And there she was knurled .. Lenin is a German spy ..
            1. novel66
              novel66 13 February 2018 11: 05
              0
              Gorbachev, Yeltsin ??? laughing
              1. avt
                avt 13 February 2018 11: 28
                +3
                Quote: novel xnumx
                Gorbachev, Yeltsin ???

                request Well, it’s just that someone who forgot in the USSR, or pretended to be “forgotten,” remember, if years allow, how the intelligentsia shuffled into the stage setting in the “lights” over
                ... as we move forward, the resistance of the capitalist elements will increase, the class struggle will intensify .... It is impossible to imagine that socialist forms will develop, crowding out the enemies of the working class, and the enemies will retreat silently, giving way to our progress, that then we will move forward again, and they will retreat again, and then “unexpectedly” all social groups without exception, both fists and the poor, both workers and capitalists, will be “suddenly”, “imperceptibly”, without fights s and anxieties in the bosom of a socialist society. Such tales do not exist and cannot exist at all, in the atmosphere of the dictatorship of the proletariat - in particular.
                1. novel66
                  novel66 13 February 2018 11: 32
                  +2
                  Years even allow one to remember the study of Leninist works and his admiration for the hammered formulations and clarity of presentation. and perestroyka ----- squeamishness only
        2. avva2012
          avva2012 13 February 2018 08: 30
          +4
          among them were not People at the level of People’s Commissars of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Defense, NKVD, MGB, Financeforeign spies and fascists
          The word "people" did not highlight.
          Specifically, how they were gone, from about the thirtieth minute, and so, albeit a long video, but interesting, in my opinion.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 13 February 2018 09: 49
            +6
            Quote: avva2012
            The word "people" did not highlight.

            You again do not understand Russian. there were no people among whites TOP level leadership of a huge country- turned out to be "fascists and traitors" (see 37-53).
            Quote: avva2012
            so, albeit a long video, but interesting, in my opinion.

            Dumb agitation, in my opinion.
            1. avt
              avt 13 February 2018 10: 12
              +7
              Quote: Olgovich
              Dumb agitation, in my opinion.

              Well, rather a dull look from hunchbacked times, an intellectual educated by the media, who felt himself at once a member of the noble assembly of the Proletarian district. And do not talk about the facts about this completely completely closed topic, without statute of limitations. So I don’t even know which of the people who voiced this topic in the media, Aron Pyatnitsky seemed to be leading him to the archive of the Administrative Department of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, and he led it in combination with work in the Comintern.
            2. avva2012
              avva2012 13 February 2018 15: 55
              +3
              Dumb agitation, in my opinion.
              You might think you watched this video. If you count your comments appearing (for example: Today, 09: 49),
              then where did you get the time to watch? By the way, what is this "agitation" about?
        3. BAI
          BAI 13 February 2018 10: 05
          +7
          Yes, the whites were angels against this background, among them there were no people at the level of the people's commissars of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Defense, the NKVD, the MGB, financial-foreign spies and fascists

          Then we must give the floor to the direct participants in those events:
          Speech P. N. Milyukov at a meeting of the State Duma. (From the transcript of the meeting on November 1, 1916).

          A German document was published in the French yellow book, which taught the rules on how to disorganize an enemy country, how to create fermentation and unrest in it. Gentlemen, if our government wanted to deliberately set this task, or if the Germans wanted to use their means, means of influence or means of bribery, they could do nothing better than do what the Russian government did (Rodichev places: "Unfortunately, this is so").

          Of particular interest was the editorial in the Neue Freier Press of June 25. Here’s what this article says: “No matter how old Stürmer gets rid of it (laughter), it’s still rather strange that German (laughter) will lead foreign policy in the war, which has come out of pan-Slavist ideas. Minister-President Stürmer is free from fallacies, He didn’t promise, gentlemen, mind you, that without Constantinople and the Straits he would never make peace. are right , Not wanting union with England. He will not say, as Sazonov, you need to disarm the Prussian military helmet. "

          Where do German and Austrian newspapers get this confidencethat Stürmer, fulfilling the desire of the right, will act against England and against the continuation of the war? From the information of the Russian press.


          Who is making the revolution? Here's who: it turns out, it is made by city and zemstvo unions, military-industrial committees, congresses of liberal organizations. This is the most undoubted manifestation of the coming revolution. "Left parties," the note says, "want to continue the war in order to organize and prepare a revolution in the interim."

          Gentlemen, you know that, in addition to such a note, there are a number of separate notes that develop the same idea. There is an indictment against the city and zemstvo organization, there are other indictments that you know. So gentlemen, that idefix of the revolution coming from the left, that idefix, insanity on which is obligatory for every member of the cabinet (votes: “That's right!”), And this idefix sacrifices everything: a high national impulse to help the war, and the beginnings of Russian freedom, and even the strength of relations with the allies.

          When, with more and more perseverance, the Duma recalls that it is necessary to organize the rear for a successful struggle, and the authorities continue to repeat that to organize means to organize a revolution, and consciously prefers chaos and disorganization - is this stupidity or treason?

          It is therefore impossible to blame the population if it comes to the conclusion that I read in the statement of the chairmen of the provincial administrations. You must also understand why we have no other speech today than the one I said: seek the departure of this government. You ask, how do we begin to fight during the war? Why, gentlemen, only during the war are they dangerous. They are dangerous for war: that is precisely why during the war and in the name of war, in the name of the very one that made us unite, we are now fighting with them. (Voices on the left: Bravo. Applause.)

          Those. in fact, the entire government is traitors.
      2. Lieutenant Teterin
        Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 09: 14
        +6
        Dear apro, why do you, like the Nazis, calculate in whom how much blood? Catherine II, having arrived in Russia, first learned the Russian language and until the end of her days was immersed in Russian culture and even wrote plays based on Russian folk motives. And her descendants were the same. One is Alexander III, who demanded that his child's teacher: “I need normal Russian children,” which is worth it.
      3. Gopnik
        Gopnik 13 February 2018 14: 24
        +1
        In the sense of "whose" ??? Russian, of course. Didn’t go to school?
    2. rkkasa xnumx
      rkkasa xnumx 13 February 2018 07: 56
      +7
      Quote: Olgovich
      practically ALL the so-called The "Leninist Guard" that carried out the Thief in the USSR was recognized in 1937-53 as German, American, Japanese, Polish, Argentinean, etc. SPIEN and hired by the Nazis and the West

      Announce the entire list please ... This very so-called "Leninist guard." And on what grounds did membership in this guard come to light. And which of them was destroyed.
      By the way, and Molotov-Kaganovich-Voroshilov-Mikoyan-Malenkov-Zhdano
      v-Kalinin-Zemlyachka-Stalin, is it the "Leninist Guard" or not?
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 13 February 2018 09: 25
        +7
        Quote: rkkasa 81
        Announce the entire list please ... This very so-called "Leninist guard"

        There is no educational program, dear man. Something you might know: THE FIRST composition of the so-called "Council of People's Commissars" lol October 26, 1917-destroyed. Without a trace.
        Moscow processes are also unfamiliar? And 70% of the so-called "congress of winners", carved to the root, unknown? Also no? So take the file binder of the glorious 30s; there are lists of the top gangsters.
        Quote: rkkasa 81
        By the way, and Molotov-Kaganovich-Voroshilov-Mikoyan-Malenkov-Waiting
        in-Kalinin-Countrywoman-Stalin

        Zalkind (secretary Motovilikhinsky RK RCP (b) of the city of Perm, 1924), zhdanov (From 1922 to August 1924 Head propaganda department (APO) Nizhny Novgorod Provincial Committee of the RCP (B.), Malenkov-STUDENT lol are people of the level of Bronstein, Rosenfeld, Apfelbaum ?! WHAT is the matter with you, dear man ?! fool You would have included Manyasha and Annyasha with Nadusha in the list of "guards". lol And it’s completely scanty stub -You’ve got a list. request
        By the way, do not forget that Kalinin and Molotov's wives were notorious enemies of the people. And who are their husbands after that? Wow- "guard" belay am
        You are more thoroughly approaching work, that is, in a party way! yes
        1. Varyag_0711
          Varyag_0711 13 February 2018 10: 04
          +11
          Olgovich Today, 09: 25 ↑
          There is no educational program, dear man.
          Well, why? For example, an educational program would not hurt you.
          ALL the first composition of the so-called "Sovnarkom" lol of October 26, 1917-destroyed. Without a trace.
          It will probably be a great discovery for you to learn the fact that history has the property of repeating itself and has its own laws. So it’s not a secret to anyone that any revolution eats those who gave birth to it. What happened to Danton, Robespierre, Marat and other first persons of the French revolution? Or, by your logic, were they all foreign spies too?
          So your next attempt to pull an owl on the globe for the hundredth time failed because of your complete ignorance and ignorance ... laughing
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 13 February 2018 10: 41
            +6
            Quote: Varyag_0711
            Well, why? For example, an educational program would not hurt you.

            Because the respected VO implies a certain, rather high level, knowledge of VO citizens. Are you able to refute something from what I have given? Not? Inactive? Why then litter in vain?
            Quote: Varyag_0711
            I will probably be a great discovery for you to learn the fact that history has the property of repeating itself and has its own laws. So it’s not a secret to anyone that any revolution eats those who gave birth to it. What happened to Danton, Robespierre, Marat and other first persons of the French revolution? Or, by your logic, they were also all spies

            They are not, but the Lenin so-called "guard" -YES: read the same solutions Stalin ships. yes
            Or are you against Comrade himself? STALIN ?! belay am lol
            On the poster: "Eradicate the hires of fascist intelligence!" yes
            1. Varyag_0711
              Varyag_0711 13 February 2018 10: 50
              +9
              And what are you trying to prove to me? In fact, everything is simple and prosaic. The entire so-called Leninist guard eventually divided into two camps, which saw the future of Russia in completely different ways. As a result, the Trotskyists lost, but the fact that they were later exposed as foreign spies is not so true. Trotsky was ready to drown Russia in the blood of the world revolution, and Stalin saved the country and made him a world superpower.
              So I don’t see any contradictions here, everything is quite logical and logical.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 13 February 2018 11: 56
                +3
                Quote: Varyag_0711
                And what are you trying to prove to me?

                Repeat AGAIN? belay Well, well, for tankers:
                almost ALL so-called The "Leninist Guard" that carried out the Thief in the USSR was recognized in 1937-53 as German, American, Japanese, Polish, Argentinean, etc. SPIEN yes and hired by the Nazis and the West.

                Knock a knot on the nose. hi
                1. Varyag_0711
                  Varyag_0711 13 February 2018 12: 24
                  +7
                  Olgovich Today, 11: 56 ↑
                  Knock a knot on the nose. hi
                  Hack yourself, do a favor, and even better suicide "abstena". And in a knot you can twist a member, they say it helps some from verbal diarrhea. laughing
                  And what of the fact that in the 37th year they plagued those who did not agree with the Stalinist vector of the country's development? What is not logical in this, are you our homegrown tanker?
                  Napoleon dared the entire former elite of the French Revolution, became emperor, but in the end they demolished him. True it was not demolished by the French.
                  Cromwell dug up after death and hanged, so what?
                  Olgovich, you are so stupid and ridiculous in your worthless attempts to challenge the laws of history that it goes beyond any reasonable limit. What exactly are you trying to prove by what everyone already knows? Well, Stalin shot those who prevented him from building a country, and what of that? Just that he accused them of espionage? And what should he have blamed them? The fact that they specifically went against his vision? So this is an elementary policy, neither better nor worse than the politics of other world leaders.
                  Your overseas owners in batches destroy their own henchmen-sixes and do not even bother much with the justification of their actions, and so what?
                  The Bolsheviks and Stalin acted exactly as the situation required, and judging them from a modern point of view is not just stupid, but criminal. However, you are a state criminal, it’s a pity that you don’t get enough of all the ice axes, and you’re too small a bird for an ice ax.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 13 February 2018 13: 05
                    +3
                    Quote: Varyag_0711
                    And in a knot you can twist a membersay some help from verbal diarrhea

                    Bgavo, comrade Bolshevik, But! - how are you all sadly monotonous! request lol
                    Quote: Varyag_0711
                    И what from what in the 37th year plagued those who did not agree with the Stalinist vector of the country's development?

                    Shaw, AGAIN ?! belay Yeah. ... Okay:
                    almost ALL so-called The "Leninist Guard" that carried out the Thief in the USSR was recognized in 1937-53 as SPIES and mercenaries of the Nazis and the West.

                    Tie a knot with an ax! yes
                    Quote: Varyag_0711
                    Olgovich, you are so stupid and ridiculous in your worthless attempts challenge the laws of historythat it goes beyond any reasonable limit.

                    Act, at least announce yes
                    Quote: Varyag_0711
                    Well, Stalin shot those who prevented him from building the country and what from? Just that he accused them of espionage?

                    but none of that: the spiders gobbled up each other’s bank, and with them. request Top officials of the state-foreign mercenaries- THAT is significant! Amazing! good
                    Quote: Varyag_0711
                    The Bolsheviks and Stalin acted exactly as the situation required, and judging them from a modern point of view is not just stupid, but criminal. However, you are a state criminal, I’m sorry only you can’t get enough of all the ice axes, and you’re too small a bird for an ice ax.

                    Are you Lenin? And the ice ax got exactly - Leninists - from the comrades in struggle yes
                    Are you always ready? hi
              2. avva2012
                avva2012 14 February 2018 16: 51
                +3
                Alex, have you watched?
            2. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 13 February 2018 18: 52
              +3
              Quote: Olgovich
              On the poster: "Eradicate the hires of fascist intelligence!"

              And where is it written here that we will eradicate the Leninist guard? You really do that: pull something onto something.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 14 February 2018 09: 51
                +1
                Quote: Alexander Green
                And where is it written here that we will eradicate the Leninist guard?

                SURNAMES of the "Leninists" who ate each other - read in the NEWSPAPERS of the 30s (Moscow Processes) - they did not fit on the posters!
                The uppermost Leninists (they are also gangsters of the 30s) are indicated in a letter to the congress of the imperishable grandfather: ALL mentioned-problems Leaders. yes
                1. Alexander Greene
                  Alexander Greene 14 February 2018 19: 04
                  +3
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  SURNAMES of the "Leninists" who ate each other - read in the NEWSPAPERS of the 30s (Moscow Processes) - they did not fit on the posters!

                  In the newspapers of the 30s also it has never been written anywhere that the Leninist Guard is being destroyed, because living in the time of Lenin does not mean yet to be Leninist.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 15 February 2018 11: 17
                    +1
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    In the newspapers of the 30s also it has never been written anywhere that the Leninist Guard is being destroyed, because living in the time of Lenin does not mean yet to be Leninist.

                    Surnames the guards wrote in the newspapers, on the lists of the DESTROYED.
                    What KILLED ZINOVIEV, Trotsky, Bukharin and Kamenev, Pyataks, Roars, etc. for you, NOT the Leninist guard, says that you read illich badly.
                    A SHAME! lol
                    1. Alexander Greene
                      Alexander Greene 15 February 2018 22: 45
                      +2
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      LOST Zinoviev, Trotsky, Bukharin and Kamenev, Pyataks, Rykov, etc. for you are NOT Lenin’s guards, it means that you read Ilich badly.

                      And where did you get that this is the Leninist guard? Zinoviev and Kamenev gave the time of the October uprising, Trotsky, whom Lenin did not call Jude-Trotsky, disrupted the Brest negotiations, after which the world had to be concluded on even more difficult terms, Trotsky supported Bukharin, and negotiated with the Left Socialist Revolution rebels about the arrest of Lenin, Rykov and Pyatakov also have many sins.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 16 February 2018 09: 26
                        0
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        And where did you get that this is the Leninist guard? Zinoviev and Kamenev gave the time of the October uprising, Trotsky, whom Lenin did not call Jude-Trotsky, disrupted the Brest negotiations, after which the world had to be concluded on even more difficult terms, Trotsky supported Bukharin, and negotiated with the Left Socialist Revolution rebels about the arrest of Lenin, Rykov and Pyatakov also have many sins.

                        It is THEY that are mentioned in the "Letter to the Congress," the grandfather lived with them all his conscious life with them, built the party and carried out the "work". Learn!
                        Stalin was less and less with Lenin.
                      2. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 16 February 2018 20: 32
                        +2
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        It is THEY that are mentioned in the "Letter to the Congress", the grandfather lived with them all his conscious life with them, built the party and carried out "work".

                        You never know who V.I. Lenin remembered in his letters, do you think everyone should be reckoned with the Guard? Have you really got out? Guard does not betray. I repeat: Trotsky fought with Lenin in 1903, Kamenev and Zinoviev gave the date of the uprising, Bukharin was going to arrest Lenin in July 1918.
                      3. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 17 February 2018 06: 38
                        0
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        You never know who V.I. Lenin remembered in his letters, do you think everyone should be reckoned with the Guard?

                        You are hopelessly UNLIMITED: "letter to the congress" -political testament venbolic, not any letter
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        Have you really got out?

                        Nervous? lol Still your friends would ate each other, like spiders in a bank.
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        I repeat: Trotsky fought with Lenin in 1903, Kamenev and Zinoviev gave the date of the uprising, Bukharin was going to arrest Lenin in July 1918.

                        Bronstein fought TOGETHER with grandfather from 1917 to the end. Do you remember his posts? Grandpa, etc., putting the ENEMY on SUCH posts?
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        Kamenev and Zinoviev issued the date of the uprising

                        Therefore, the bald put them in the highest posts and praised in the will! lol fool laughing
        2. rkkasa xnumx
          rkkasa xnumx 13 February 2018 10: 51
          +8
          Quote: Olgovich
          There is no educational program

          In general, you came up with a word about the "Leninist guard."
          Quote: Olgovich
          ALL the first composition of the so-called "Council of People's Commissars" of October 26, 1917-destroyed. Without a trace

          Again nonsense.
          Nogin, Lunacharsky, Skvortsov, Stalin, Elizarov, Kollontai, Essen - were not destroyed. Paul Council of People's Commissars.
          Quote: Olgovich
          Bronstein, Rosenfeld, Apfelbaum

          Guard of three people? Cool Guard ... Oh and Olgych, oh and Brehlo ...
          Quote: Olgovich
          included in the list of "guard"

          So what kind of beast is this - the "Leninist Guard"? You yourself refuse to identify the signs of this same guard.
          1. Varyag_0711
            Varyag_0711 13 February 2018 11: 15
            +11
            rkkasa 81 Today, 10:51 ↑
            Guard of three people? Cool Guard ... Oh and Olgych, oh and Brehlo ...
            Well, fucking is not tossing bags ... Moreover, olgovich most likely doesn’t bribe for nothing. In other matters, if he lies for free, then he is even more fool stupid than i thought about him request .
            1. rkkasa xnumx
              rkkasa xnumx 13 February 2018 12: 00
              +6
              Quote: Varyag_0711
              In addition, olgovich most likely doesn’t breeze for nothing. In other matters, if he lies for free, then he is even more stupid than I thought about him.

              Not, all the same, he looks more like a paid troll than a stupid liar for whom he claims to be.
              Okay, I’ll feed him one more kament, and wake him up. Enough with him for today, already full should be.
          2. Olgovich
            Olgovich 13 February 2018 11: 38
            +4
            Quote: rkkasa 81
            In general, you came up with a word about the "Leninist guard."

            You decide about the "nonsense." Do you think this is a "convincing argument"? lol
            Quote: rkkasa 81
            Again nonsense.
            Nogin, Lunacharsky, Skvortsov, Stalin, Elizarov, Kollontai, Essen - were not destroyed.

            HOW-those who SUCCESSED (fortunately) to die before the 30s, could be shot? belay Speech naturally about surviving to blessed 37-38 years. yes
            And Stalin, who destroyed them, HOW could he shoot himself? fool
            Quote: rkkasa 81
            Guard of three people? Cool Guard ...

            Nope, this is Yours Malenkov (student), Zalkind (secretary), Zhdanov (zamzav) - Lenin's Guard lol laughing You would teach a HISTORY before you are so disgraced. yes
            Quote: rkkasa 81
            So what kind of beast is this - the "Leninist Guard"? You yourself refuse to identify the signs of this same guard.

            You, like Comrade Abba, from the FIRST time, don’t you understand? belay
            For tankers I repeat:
            :
            ALL the first composition of the so-called "Sovnarkom" lol of October 26, 1917-destroyed. Without a trace.
            Moscow processes are also unfamiliar? And 70% of the so-called "congress of winners", carved to the root, unknown?
            hi
            1. rkkasa xnumx
              rkkasa xnumx 13 February 2018 12: 02
              +4
              Quote: Olgovich
              Zalkind (secretory)

              Judging because you wag Olhich hmm ... tail, you are a secretary.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 13 February 2018 13: 15
                +3
                Quote: rkkasa 81
                fishing because you wag hmm ... Olhich ... tail, you are a secretary.

                You do not follow the precepts of your "eternally living" grandfather: "Learn, study, etc."! yes
                Stupidly torn from Wiki TT. Malenkova (a student under Lenin), Zhdanov and Zalkind-like "Lenin's guard", and flopped into a puddle! lol
                Not party, comrade rrrka! hi
          3. revnagan
            revnagan 19 March 2018 17: 06
            0
            Quote: rkkasa 81
            Oh and Olgych, oh and brehlo ...

            But HOW it breaks! Fervently, with a twinkle! Even he believes in his words!
  3. shcishcok
    shcishcok 13 February 2018 07: 41
    +5
    all repeats. again, the pro-Western puppets of the government are trying to legitimize the subordination of Russia to the West. Again, it all starts from the top.
  4. ALEA IACTA EST
    ALEA IACTA EST 13 February 2018 07: 48
    +3
    Apparently, reds of all shades from deep patriotic convictions incited soldiers to treason.
    1. Bouncer
      Bouncer 13 February 2018 11: 57
      +17
      Which red ones?
      And whose soldiers?
  5. baudolino
    baudolino 13 February 2018 07: 58
    +8
    The eternal question - who is right, the rebel Maidan or the Donbass rebelled after him?
    The winners write the story. And the Reds in 1991 not only lost, but shamefully blown away. What showed the fallacy of Marxism-Leninism and the futility of millions of victims thrown on the altar of communism.
    1. avt
      avt 13 February 2018 11: 32
      +3
      Quote: baudolino
      And the Reds in 1991 not only lost, but shamefully blown away. What showed the fallacy of Marxism-Leninism and the futility of millions of victims thrown on the altar of communism.

      Actually then brilliant foresight .... Comrade Stalin
      Quote: avt
      ..on our advancement, the resistance of the capitalist elements will increase, the class struggle will intensify .... It is impossible to imagine that the socialist forms will develop, crowding out the enemies of the working class, and the enemies will retreat silently, giving way to our advancement, which then we will move forward again, and they will retreat again, and then “unexpectedly” all social groups without exception, both fists and the poor, both workers and capitalists, will be “suddenly”, “imperceptibly”, without struggle and tribulations, in the bosom of a socialist society. Such tales do not exist and cannot exist at all, in the atmosphere of the dictatorship of the proletariat - in particular.

      bully
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 13 February 2018 12: 01
        +3
        Quote: avt
        Actually then brilliant foresight .... Comrade Stalin
        Quote: avt
        ..As we move forward, the resistance of the capitalist elements will increase, class the struggle will escalate ..

        Dumber than this conclusion, of course, it is impossible to imagine: classes ALREADY not, but class the struggle is escalating. Martians apparently continued to "fight" lol
        1. avt
          avt 13 February 2018 12: 58
          +2
          Quote: Olgovich
          Dumber of this conclusion, of course, it is impossible to imagine: there are ALREADY no classes, and the class struggle is escalating.

          bully
          Well, this is positively interesting, ”the professor said, shaking with laughter,“ what you have, whatever you grab, there is nothing! ” -
          And even the objective reality given to the sensation since 1991 by the adherent of the perestroika is not a decree. bully Not . Of course, one can live in one's virtuality of the noble assembly of the Proletarian region, flip through the “Spark” of the times of Korotich ... But this is already from the field of psychiatry.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 13 February 2018 13: 28
            +2
            Quote: avt
            Professor, - what is it that you have, whatever you grab, there is nothing! -
            And even the objective reality given to the sensation since 1991 by the adherent of the perestroika is not a decree. Not . Of course you can live in your own virtuality of the noble assembly of the Proletarian region, flip through the “Spark” of the times of Korotich. ... But this is already from the field of psychiatry.

            This is yes ... lol
        2. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene 13 February 2018 19: 12
          +4
          Quote: Olgovich
          Dumber of this conclusion, of course, it is impossible to imagine: there are ALREADY no classes, and the class struggle is escalating.

          Do not show your ignorance that Marxism teaches that classes and class struggle will die out only when building complete communism.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 14 February 2018 09: 58
            +1
            Quote: Alexander Green
            Do not show your ignorance that Marxism teachesthat classes and class struggle will die out only when building complete communism.

            Classes have long been LIQUIDATED. And the class -.... is amplified. What's wrong with you?: fool lol
            Illiterate is the one who believes that "Marxism" can teach something
            1. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 14 February 2018 19: 13
              +4
              Quote: Olgovich
              Illiterate is the one who believes that "Marxism" can teach something

              And you take a closer look at what is happening around: some have private property and people who do not have it work for them, the former have millions of incomes, others have a penny. And you say that these groups of people are no different?
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 15 February 2018 11: 19
                +1
                Quote: Alexander Green
                And you take a closer look at what is happening around: some have private property and people who do not have it work for them, the former have millions of incomes, others have a penny. And you say that these groups of people are no different?

                And in groups people are ALSO different. EVERY person is Unique. AND?
                1. Alexander Greene
                  Alexander Greene 15 February 2018 22: 55
                  +4
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  And in groups people are ALSO different. EVERY person is Unique. AND?

                  How illiterate you are, you don’t even want to think right. With your reasoning behind the trees you do not see the forest. People are individual, but they have something in common, for example, if they have private property and they have wage workers, this group belongs to the class of the bourgeoisie and those who do not have such property belong to the class of proletarians.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 16 February 2018 09: 31
                    0
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    How illiterate you are, you don’t even want to think right

                    The telegraph pole is smarter than you. hi
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    if they have private property and they have wage workers, this group belongs to the class of the bourgeoisie and who no such property belong to the class of proletarians.

                    Bourgeois, return the apartment to the state! And let the kids give it back! am
                    1. Alexander Greene
                      Alexander Greene 17 February 2018 17: 56
                      +3
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      The telegraph pole is smarter than you.

                      Could not be a photograph of a pillar of please in the studio.
    2. Alexander Greene
      Alexander Greene 13 February 2018 18: 58
      +6
      Quote: baudolino
      The winners write the story. And the Reds in 1991 not only lost, but shamefully blown away. What showed the fallacy of Marxism-Leninism and the futility of millions of victims thrown on the altar of communism.

      And in France, after the Great Bourgeois Revolution, the monarchy was restored. She was blown away too, or what?
      Not yet evening. The victory of the world socialist revolution is yet to come.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 14 February 2018 10: 01
        +1
        Quote: Alexander Green
        Not yet evening. The victory of the world socialist revolution is yet to come [/ b].

        Again a sectarian with a flood ...
        1. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene 14 February 2018 19: 16
          +4
          Quote: Olgovich
          Quote: Alexander Green
          Not yet evening. The victory of the world socialist revolution is yet to come [/ b].
          Again a sectarian with a flood ...

          Flood ?! Why are you so afraid of her?
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 15 February 2018 11: 21
            +1
            Quote: Alexander Green
            Flood ?! Why are you so afraid of her?

            I'm afraid ?! belay fool lol
            No, it's just FUNNY! yes
            1. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 15 February 2018 23: 06
              +2
              Quote: Olgovich
              No, it's just FUNNY

              Boo-and-boo! It is evident that you are very afraid, since a nervous laugh is beating you.
              1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Olgovich
            Olgovich 16 February 2018 09: 34
            0
            Quote: Alexander Green
            Boo-and-boo! It is evident that you are very afraid, since a nervous laugh is beating you.

            Who is afraid of a shabby, tattered hissing cat imagining herself a tiger? fool lol
            Nobody: everyone just laughs, yanks his mustache and hits the head. So with her ....
  6. Dzmicer
    Dzmicer 13 February 2018 07: 58
    +8
    Hutspa again.
    The Bolsheviks abolished the Russian state, its institutions and legislation (as bourgeois remnants), put the Russian people in an oppressed position with respect to small nations ("" ... internationalism from the side of the oppressive or so-called “great” nation (although great only by its violence, great so as great as a muzzle) should consist not only in observing the formal equality of nations, but also in such INEQUALITY that would compensate the oppressing nation for the nation large, the inequality that develops in life eskoy "V.I. Ulyanov), and the anti-Russian and anti-state project, it turns out, was represented by those who offered them decisive and effective resistance.
  7. Alex_59
    Alex_59 13 February 2018 08: 14
    +3
    As always, the denseness in the subject rolls over so much that no objective conversation is possible. The rape of the corpses of monarchism and Bolshevism continues.
  8. parusnik
    parusnik 13 February 2018 08: 16
    +10
    OG Goncharekno in his study “The White Guards Between the Star and the Swastika”, pointed out interesting details during the evacuation of the “whites” from the Crimea, Novorossiysk .. Someone huddled on the deck, and someone walked their dogs .. Distribution food was also not fair. It came to the point that in order to avoid hunger riots, we had to requisition surplus food from wealthier passengers. Upon the arrival of ships and ships in Turkey, the French allies appropriated the taken out civilian cargo, fabrics, tea, sugar, and others for the total amount about 133 ml. francs. "White" yesterday, fought for a "brighter present" today .. For Abramovich and Co., for mortgages and taxes ...
  9. Cartalon
    Cartalon 13 February 2018 08: 52
    +9
    What the hell are these agitators doing in the story section?
  10. Lieutenant Teterin
    Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 09: 05
    +9
    The article is a fat minus. The author, despite the fact that he positions himself as a communist, with perseverance worthy of a better application, follows the ideological principles of the Goebbels genosses — he repeats dozens of times a lie in the vain hope that she will be accepted as truth.
    Lieutenant General Ya. A. Slashchov-Krymsky, leaving the White Army and joining the Reds, wrote an article: "Slogans of Russian patriotism in the service of France."

    To cite the example of the Judas-careerist Slashchev, who betrayed his own, having crossed over to the Bolsheviks, is, of course, strong ... He, justifying himself, could not only France, to drag cephalopod sharkworms from Alpha Centauri.
    The White Movement, having received material assistance and military assistance from the West and Japan

    Yeah. The volume of this help was so "great" that the white people then cursed their allies in different ways for a very long time. This was an article on "VO".
    the task of Russian statehood was accomplished not at a minimum, but at a high level (as under Stalin).

    Here is how? This means that in the name of Russian statehood, Dzhugashvili pursued a policy of “Ukrainization” and “indigenousization”, cut Central Asian “republics” from the RSFSR, which, under article 17 of the 1936 Constitution, had the right to secede from the USSR. In the name of the same statehood, he apparently did not support the creation of his Communist Party in the RSFSR, and the “Leningrad affair” in his accusation had the phrase “creation of the Russian party”?
    Half of the generals and officers of the General Staff, the color of the imperial army, began to serve in the Red Army.

    False. On the side of the Reds, no more than 20% of officers fought, most of whom were forced to serve by threats to them and their loved ones.
    The conclusion from the article is simple — justifying the Bolsheviks, who in the difficult years of the war made every effort to defeat their homeland, and after the seizure of power organized social genocide in order to maintain power, Mr. Samsonov pours water into the mill of various extremists, encouraging their activities.
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 13 February 2018 09: 40
      +8
      No more than 20% of officers fought on the side of the Reds
      Kavtoradze A.G. “Military Specialists in the Service of the Republic of Soviets of 1917-1920.”
      70.000-75.000 people served in the Red Army, that is, approximately 30 percent of its total composition (a smaller proportion than the number of general staffists, which had its own significant reason). However, this figure - 30 percent - is essentially disorienting. For, as A.G. Kavtoradze, another 30 percent of the officers in the 1917 year turned out to be outside any army service in general (decree. Op., P. 117). This means that the Red Army did not serve 30, but about 43 percent of the officers available by 1918, and 57 percent in the White (about 100 000 people). The officers of the General Staff "(p. 181) in the Red Army were 639 (including the 252 general) people, which amounted to 46 percent - that is, in fact about half - who continued to serve after the October 1917 year of the General Staff officers; in the White Army there were approximately 750 people (cit. cit., p. 196-197).
      "Questions of History," 1993, N 6, p. 189: "the total number of personnel officers who participated in the civil war in the ranks of the regular Red Army was more than 2 times the number of personnel officers who took part in hostilities on the side of the whites." Interesting statement?
      most of whom were forced to serve by threats to them and their loved ones.
      Fseh?
      1. Lieutenant Teterin
        Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 10: 53
        +4
        Kavtoradze is a Soviet historian and wrote under the ideological press of the party. My data is based on research by Doctor of History Sergei Volkov, who studied biography of the Russian officer corps for 30 years.
        1. Alex_59
          Alex_59 13 February 2018 12: 24
          +6
          Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
          Kavtoradze is a Soviet historian and wrote under the ideological press of the party. My data is based on research by Doctor of History Sergey Volkov

          Volkov - a perestroika historian and wrote under the ideological press of Yeltsinism))))
          This is ridiculous. The fact that someone pressed on Kataradze still needs to be proved. But comrade Volkov S.V. does not hide his bias towards history. In particular, he was the co-chair of the nationalist organization RONS (prohibited in the Russian Federation). What clearly speaks of this man and his views. He is not objective.
          1. Lieutenant Teterin
            Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 13: 32
            +2
            The press of Yeltsinism is a good joke. Especially when you consider that then there was no ideology.
            Quote: Alex_59
            In particular, he was the co-chair of the nationalist organization RONS

            Present evidence, please. The text of the memorandum of association. Or an interview with the "co-founder."
            1. Alex_59
              Alex_59 13 February 2018 13: 50
              +2
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              Especially when you consider that then there was no ideology.

              Lack of ideology is also an ideology.
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              Present the evidence, please.

              Wikipedia says. Write to him personally, ask.
              1. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 17: 30
                +1
                Wikipedia, as a source ... A source of tremendous reliability, there is nothing to say. wink
                1. Alex_59
                  Alex_59 14 February 2018 07: 25
                  +3
                  Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
                  Wikipedia, as a source ... A source of tremendous reliability, there is nothing to say.

                  Yes, no matter how special it is to prove something. If the people were against it, they would have demolished this article on Wiki, since anyone can do it. The point is something to fake? Well, he was a member of RONS and all right. There, in his biography, several more offices of a monarchist-Black-Hundred character are indicated. I don’t think that some ordinary, historian who is not necessary to anyone except me and Poruchik, is the object of deliberate falsification of his biography, especially during his lifetime.
            2. avva2012
              avva2012 13 February 2018 16: 18
              +3
              Especially when you consider that then there was no ideology.
              Did you pay any attention to the color of the national flag? Yes, and ideology, always only accompanies the economy and is an instrument of the ruling class. The economic formation with private ownership of the means of production, what is called? Accordingly, the ideology from the year 1991, which?
              1. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 17: 32
                +1
                Excuse me, are you able to speak only with quotes from a textbook of Marxist "political economy"? Do you really need to clarify the delusional nature of your thesis about the connection between economics and ideology?
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 14 February 2018 05: 56
                  +4
                  And what about you, "Marxist political economy" is not a source for quotations? And explain, nevertheless, to me siroma, "the delirium of my thesis"? For example, to begin with, what is ideology, in your opinion, and then how it is not related to the economy. And then from your comment, it appears that this is such a commonplace as twice two. And, suddenly, who does not know, and suddenly, you ..?
            3. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 13 February 2018 19: 16
              +3
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              The press of Yeltsinism is a good joke. Especially when you consider that then there was no ideology.

              You are mistaken, there is always an ideology, the Yeltsin clique had an ideology of anti-communism bourgeois.
        2. avva2012
          avva2012 13 February 2018 16: 10
          +2
          30 years studied the biography of the Russian officer corps.
          All xnumx thousand? And according to your statement, even more. And two more questions, "a link to the names of those whose families were held hostage when the military specialist fought against Denikin?" and "according to the work of Kavtoradze, did they check the links?"
      2. Olgovich
        Olgovich 13 February 2018 11: 13
        +6
        Quote: avva2012
        70.000-75.000 people served in the Red Army, that is, approximately 30 percent of its total composition (a smaller proportion than the number of general staffists, which had its own significant reason). However, even this figure - 30 percent - is essentially disorienting. For, as A.G. Kavtoradze, another 30 percent of the officers in 1917 were outside any army service in general (decree. Op., P. 117). This means that in the Red Army, not 30, but about 43 percent of the available officers by 1918 were serving, and in the White, 57 percent (approximately 100).


        Junk is all this. Here are the latest data:
        the total number of officers was approximately 276 thousand people. (including those who, at the time of the October Revolution, had not returned to service due to disruption or were fired by the Provisional Government; both, however, participated in the events of the civil war and were the subject of reprisals). Approximately 170 thousand of them (about 62%) fought in the white armies, 55–58 thousand (19–20%) of the Bolsheviks (excluding captured white officers), and up to 15 thousand in the armies of the newly formed states. (5–6%) and a little over 10% - 28–30 thousand did not take part in the civil war, mainly because the vast majority (over 2/3 of those “not participating”) were exterminated by the Bolsheviks in the first months after the collapse of the front (end of 1917 - spring of 1918) and during the "red terror".

        Ist .: Volkov Sergey Vladimirovich
        The tragedy of Russian officers


        Quote: avva2012
        Fseh?

        Use: September 5, 1918 in Soviet Russia the institution of hostage officially appeared, legalized by order of the head of the NKVD G.I. Petrovsky.
        Trotsky, extended it to families of former officers and military officials. His order of September 30 read:
        “The treacherous escapes of the officers in the enemy’s camps take place to this day. These monstrous crimes must be put to an end without stopping at any measures. Defectors betray Russian workers and peasants to Anglo-French and Japanese-American robbers and executioners. Let the defectors know that they at the same time betray their own families: fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, wives and children.
        I order the headquarters of all the armies of the Republic, as well as the district commissars, to submit by telegraph to a member of the Revolutionary Military Council Aralov lists of all commanding officers who have escaped into the enemy camp with all the necessary information about their marital status. I entrust to Comrade Aralova the adoption, by agreement with the relevant institutions, of the necessary measures to detain families of defectors and traitors ”[

        On the basis of this atrocity, the order for the families of ALL officers was already followed (PREVENTIVE measures:
        “By order of the Chairman of the Revolutionary Council of the Republic, Comrade Trotsky, it is required to establish the marital status of the command staff of former officers and officials and to retain in responsible posts only those of them whose families are located within Soviet Russia, and a message to everyone on a personal receipt - his betrayal and betrayal will entail arrest his family and that, therefore, he assumes, therefore, responsibility for the fate of his family ... "

        Beasts were treated with people according to its atrocious laws ...
        1. Monarchist
          Monarchist 13 February 2018 14: 10
          +3
          Olgovich, in the civil war there are no right or right. Every war is a tragedy, and a civil war is a tragedy in a cube. It is very bad that the Russians killed the Russians for the sake of different foreigners. And the comrade Trotsky Ghoul, he and his followers are no better than the Nazis: taking women and children hostage
        2. avva2012
          avva2012 13 February 2018 16: 22
          +3
          Read above about Volkov, as it turns out, a homegrown Nazi. Great source. However, like all of you.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 13 February 2018 17: 05
            +1
            Quote: avva2012
            Read above about Volkov, as it turns out, a homegrown Nazi

            Excellent source, independent, doctor of sciences. In contrast to your Soviet so-called “historians,” who were so insulted by Marxism-Leninism, who so isolated themselves, hesitating after the party’s line, that so far there has been no history of coincidence. Shame ....
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 14 February 2018 06: 32
              +3
              In contrast to your Soviet so-called “historians” who were crushed by Marxism-Leninism

              In the scientific works of Soviet historians, there are references. Did not try to disassemble at least one of the books, Soviet historians? For example, to read all the literature that is indicated there, and then, articulately, to explain what their mistakes, distortions, and even more so, "bruised". Forgive me, for starters, you will learn how to work with sources, otherwise you don’t produce anything material yourself, acre of foam at your mouth. Take Kavtoradze A.G. "Military Specialists in the Service of the Republic of Soviets of 1917-1920." and calmly, thoughtfully, and reasonably explore. For example, "reference No. 1 does not correspond to the data set forth by the author in his work, therefore this is why; reference No. 2, distorts information, because, according to archival sources, it is said that and that." And further along the rest of the numbers. And then there’s going to be a conversation, and so, like, all Soviet historians will be called “bruised”, this is stupidity and lack of culture.
              The fact that the fascist “historian” Volkov is supposedly independent, I want to ask the question, “from whom, is he independent and why?”. And also, "but makes his independence true, if, moreover, is he a Nazi by conviction?" By the way, Nazi and fascist ideology is prosecuted under the Law in the modern world, and even more so in the Russian Federation. In general, the historian Sergei Vladimirovich Volkov, in Soviet times - an expert on the early history of Korea, an employee of the Institute of Oriental Studies. In 1989, he became a doctor of historical sciences, i.e., according to his main theme, a Korean historian. Numerous factual errors in the works of S. Volkov are criticized by a number of historians: A. Emelin. About the book of S.V. Volkov "Officers of the Navy and the Maritime Department" // Genealogical Bulletin. Vol. 24. SPb, 2006. S. 58 − 65., M. Igumnov. Unexpected historical “discoveries”. Review of the book by S.V. Volkov “Why the Russian Federation is not Russia yet” // Homeland No. 8, 2011., R.M. Abinyakin. Former officers - prisoners of the Oryol concentration camp. 1920 − 1922 years // Questions of history. No. 11, 2010. S.80 − 93., N. Manvelov On the writings of the historian Sergei Volkov., Yu. Bakhurin and others. Did not try to read criticism?
              1. Varyag_0711
                Varyag_0711 14 February 2018 09: 17
                +8
                avva2012 Today, 06:32 ↑ New
                Questions of history. No. 11, 2010. S.80−93., N. Manvelov On the works of the historian Sergei Volkov., Yu. Bakhurin and others. Did not try to read criticism?
                Alexander, hi I watch and the battle continues again and my heart is anxious in my chest?
                I’ll tell you a terrible secret, all the bakers in their essence are Nazi fosterlings, especially a “dzimser” is sinning with this, apparently, this is a former “little girl”, an ardent and frank fascist who defends their views and even doesn’t hide it. The same thing can be said about olgovich, Teterin, Russ and other lovers crunch baguette. This ideology is close to them, it is their second "I", although they are intensely masking it under false patriotism.
                Their spiritual leaders are Kiril Vladimirovich Romanov, Ataman Krasnov, General Skuro, all the ardent anti-Soviet, scoundrels and traitors. So the apple does not fall far from the apple tree, or rather what is pop, such is the arrival.
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 14 February 2018 12: 34
                  +3
                  Well, yes, they are. NTSovskie fosterlings. That office, which was friends with the Nazis, and then with the new owners from Langley. The more I read about the white movement abroad, the more I wonder who came up with the idea that they were against Hitler. Solid fascist bedding.
                  1. Varyag_0711
                    Varyag_0711 14 February 2018 12: 46
                    +8
                    Alexander, absolutely true. Here they all like to cite Denikin as an example, well, what a fellow, they didn’t make a deal with Hitler, while completely forgetting the fact that Denikin collaborated with the Americans and even drew up a complete plan to attack the USSR. Well, just an example of an "incorruptible Russian general", you will not say anything ... laughing And if we dig our entire white emigration, then in 90-95 percent of cases it turns out that they either directly collaborated with Hitler, or indirectly supported the attack on the USSR, with money, agitation or other means. Well, then, they actively began to cooperate with the Americans or the British, again to the detriment of the USSR. In general, the true "patriots" of Russia, the so-called "color" of the nation. Although, grandfather Lenin gave them the most correct assessment, calling them the shit of the nation!
                    1. avva2012
                      avva2012 14 February 2018 14: 33
                      +2
                      Denikin, began to cooperate with the British against his country. In exile, he remained on their salary. It is natural to call, like his other comrades in the white movement, to support Hitler, he could not, nevertheless, Great Britain formally fought with Great Germany, as she called herself. Could deprive of contentment. After the war, joyfully darted to the Americans. And that, as he wrote, the Moldavian correspondent under the French flag, "I really wanted to eat."
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 15 February 2018 11: 27
                        +1
                        Quote: avva2012
                        Denikin, began to cooperate with the British against his country.

                        Short-term regimen (long gone) - NOT a country.
                        He served his millennial country of Russia, which was BEFORE you, survived with difficulty with you and IS after you.
              2. Olgovich
                Olgovich 14 February 2018 10: 48
                +1
                Quote: avva2012
                In the scientific works of Soviet historians, there are references. Did not try, at least one of the books, Soviet historians, to disassemble?

                Have you tried to make out the history of Soviet LIBRARIES? Not? And it’s a pity: they had a very busy and “interesting” life: for all 70 years: they then loaded funds with books of owls. "scientists", "historians" of the "leaders" then burned them, then again loaded with others and again, destroyed, etc., and God forbid make a mistake! lol
                Quote: avva2012
                , what are their errors, distortions, and even more so the "bruising" of A. Kavtoradze "Military specialists in the service of the Republic of Soviets 1917-1920

                Volkov dismantled, pointed and proved.
                Quote: avva2012
                and so, like, to name all Soviet historians knocked down it is stupidity and lack of culture.

                Distort: ​​Crouched dictatorship of the ith party.
                Again, you don’t know anything: YOUR “historian” Pokrovsky, with the company and the party, DESTROYED Russian historians and Russian historical science, then destroyed the school of Petrovsky and his “foster historians”, then destroyed the next “historians”, then rehabilitated Petrovsky again and so on. .d. For you, this is the norm, but for NORMAL people, WILDNESS
                Quote: avva2012
                The fact that the fascist "historian" Volkov is supposedly independent, I want to ask the question, "from whom, is he independent and why?"

                Non-fascist historian Volkov is independent of your illiterate party and its idiotic dictate
                Quote: avva2012
                Numerous factual errors in the works of S. Volkov are criticized by a number of historians:

                What is this "criticism" worth, for example, of the "historian" Abinyakin;
                The historian of the White movement S.V. Volkov (3) reduced the question of the fate of former officers exclusively to reprisals against them, almost without funding sources for a number of a priori and ideologically biased statements
                .
                Never mind! He did not refute anything, he did not prove anything, he simply expressed his unreasonable opinion. Chatter!
                But it’s good for you hi
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 14 February 2018 12: 41
                  +2
                  You showed a master class, work with sources. laughing Work further, a start has been made.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 14 February 2018 14: 06
                    +1
                    Quote: avva2012
                    You showed a master class, work with sources. Work further, a start has been made.

                    Why this garbage? request
                    1. avva2012
                      avva2012 14 February 2018 14: 57
                      +4
                      Do not want to, do not work, but garbage from the head, it is necessary to remove, and not ask, "why." Unsanitary conditions are dangerous in every sense. I doubt that you have a chance, but try, nevertheless, it will suddenly work out. smile
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 14 February 2018 15: 19
                        +1
                        Quote: avva2012
                        Do not want, do not work, but trash ...

                        You again do not understand the Russian language.
                        Why THIS:
                        Quote: avva2012
                        You showed a master class, work with sources. Work further, a start has been made.

                        verbal garbage?
                        Litter the discussion empty chatter. request
                    2. avva2012
                      avva2012 15 February 2018 03: 23
                      +2
                      Clutter up the discussion with empty chatter.

                      Is it really interfering so much? crying Sorry, your internal dialogue is "very important to us." And if the crack bothers you, move your head away from the transformer, perhaps this will help you. Thanks for attention. bully
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 15 February 2018 11: 32
                        +1
                        Quote: avva2012
                        Is it really interfering so much? Sorry, your internal dialogue is "very important to us." And if the crack bothers you, move your head away from the transformer, perhaps this will help you. Thanks for attention.

                        Again, verbal garbage. request
                        Theme, remember?
                        If there is NOTHING to say. it’s better, apparently, to remain silent, and not to bother people with a “monument” "Pavlov's dog" lol hi
                2. Varyag_0711
                  Varyag_0711 14 February 2018 12: 59
                  +8
                  Olgovich Today, 10: 48 ↑
                  Non-fascist historian Volkov is independent of your illiterate party and its idiotic dictate
                  This is this same "wolf historian" ...?!
                  Previous Entry Share Next Entry
                  Historian Volkov as a consistent Februaryist
                  zadumov
                  March 15th, 2016
                  Zadumov
                  Still, S.V. Volkov is a Februaryist.
                  He does not just sympathize with the conspirators, such as Alekseev, he associates himself with them. He ignores all facts against them. The participation of the Entente countries in the conspiracy is denied. “England has nothing to do with it” is his verbatim quote. But the tales about Rasputin, his influence on Nicholas II and even the "psychic abilities" of the Siberian peasant - this Volkov can retell in the most confident tone.
                  As a result, Volkov believes that Nicholas II did indeed sign his renunciation, was a weak politician.
                  Most of all, this approach to the events of 1917 reminds me of Kerensky’s interview, which will soon be posted on the Russian Interest website. Oddly enough, but Kerensky fully confirms the picture of the world of the Bolsheviks, only makes other accents. The bad guys are Bolsheviks, and the good ones are the Februaryists and his friends. But also, Nicholas II is a weak politician, Rasputin, there are no British ...
                  With the same success, one can refer to the same "great historian" Rezun-Suvorov and the even greater liar and scoundrel Solzhenitsyn. Here they are your idols, scoundrels and traitors, however, like you yourself.
                  1. Gopnik
                    Gopnik 14 February 2018 13: 20
                    +1
                    what difference does it make, whether he is a Februaryist, a Decembrist or a Septemberist? Yes, even a homosexual. The fact is that Volkov did just a gigantic job, creating a database of WWI officers and tracing their fate, the result was simply dry numbers and percentages that any historian who would have done the same job would get it. Therefore, its data can and should be trusted
                  2. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 14 February 2018 14: 11
                    +1
                    Quote: Varyag_0711
                    С as much success You can refer to the same "great historian" Rezun-Suvorov and an even greater liar and scoundrel Solzhenitsyn. Here they are your idols, scoundrels and traitors, however, like you yourself.

                    What kind of "with"?
                    What do you want to say?
                    When in RUSSIAN learn to express your so-called "think"? request
                    1. Varyag_0711
                      Varyag_0711 14 February 2018 15: 10
                      +8
                      Olgovich Today, 14: 11 ↑
                      When in RUSSIAN learn to express your so-called "think"? request
                      Our folk wisdom says: to teach a fool, only to spoil ...! laughing
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 14 February 2018 15: 16
                        0
                        Quote: Varyag_0711
                        Our folk wisdom says: to teach a fool, only to spoil ...!

                        Well then, stay "unspoiled" yes
    2. Alex_59
      Alex_59 13 February 2018 10: 12
      +8
      Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
      No more than 20% of officers fought on the side of the Reds, most of whom were forced to serve by threats to them and their loved ones.

      Mr. Lieutenant, do you have imagination? Can you imagine that thousands of officers were forced to force them into service with fierce enemies? Are they all general polls of Vlasov? Why are you interfering with dirt like that? And after all, it turns out that after these miserable threats they not only worn themselves out and stuck their honor in one famous place, but also served their enemies so successfully that they won ...
      It is just a dream of reason. Here, without experiencing any love for the Bolsheviks - how can one mock his story in this way?
      1. Lieutenant Teterin
        Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 10: 55
        +5
        Dear, they took hostages from their families. Do you understand? Mothers, wives, children. A mentally healthy person values ​​the lives of his relatives if you do not understand this. Nobody took the family hostage from the Soviet general Vlasov when he went over to the Nazis.
        1. Alex_59
          Alex_59 13 February 2018 11: 27
          +4
          Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
          Dear, they took hostages from their families. Do you understand? Mothers, wives, children.

          No, I don’t understand. Some bastards, fierce enemies come to you (for example, for clarity, the same monsters as the Nazis), take the family hostage and say - now you command the division of our troops, otherwise we will shoot your family. And you begin to command this division with full dedication, with passion, showing all your skills and talents to ensure victory, so what? Not a bullet in the forehead. Do not sabotage. Not an attempt to escape. No, honest service, you go and fight, you kill thousands of your compatriots.
          I do not believe in this lubok. What for the Bolsheviks so many unreliable potential traitors in their ranks? How to control them and evaluate their activities, how to manage?
          Let's get a roll call list. From whom and under what circumstances were the families taken hostage, and how did they effectively fight until the Reds won.
          Otherwise, this is an empty chatter. I also admit that some military experts could be held this way in view of the value of their knowledge, in those areas where the Bolsheviks did not have specialist volunteers in the right quantity. But not all the same. This is a sure way to defeat trust to fight such forced laborers.
          1. Lieutenant Teterin
            Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 12: 07
            +3
            For any sane person, family is a priority — such is human nature. And the "military experts" did not command "with bestowal" because: a) the Reds fought with the Whites for 4 whole years; b) commissioners, who possessed tremendous powers, looked after the “military experts”. Even the "red" authors write about this quite openly.
          2. Lieutenant Teterin
            Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 12: 21
            +4
            Do you think that the lists of names are preserved? Especially after the Second World War.
            Here is an article confirming the fact of hostage of the families of officers. http://forum.amahrov.ru/viewtopic.php?id=7801
            The author, of course, seeks to whitewash the Bolsheviks, but through gritted teeth he admits — yes, they took hostages. Some were killed, but they did not dare to mass repressions, preferring to crush with a threat.
            1. Alex_59
              Alex_59 13 February 2018 12: 31
              +4
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              Here is an article confirming the fact of hostage of the families of officers.

              I did not deny the fact of "hostage" as such in general, and to the families of individual former tsarist officers in particular. I know perfectly well what it was. But so that the MOST serving officers from the Reds would do this under duress ... this is excusable first-rate nonsense.
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              Do you think that the lists of names are preserved?

              I believe that if 2 is multiplied by 2 then there will be exactly 4. Not about four, but exactly four. And if you do not have lists of specific officers who are forced to serve the Bolsheviks because of taking their families hostage, then the statement "most of whom were forced to serve by threats to them and their loved ones." - false. If you think that you can grind any nonsense you need without bothering with accurate evidence, then you are a propagandist and an interested person who aims to deliberately distort our history for personal gain.
              Understand, I do not sympathize with the Bolsheviks. And I do not hate white people. In general, I do not feel such feelings for political corpses; they are equally indifferent to me, like people of the Stone Age. That is why I see no reason to shield some and extol others. Especially using such childish argumentation.
            2. avva2012
              avva2012 16 February 2018 19: 04
              +2
              http://forum.amahrov.ru/viewtopic.php?id=7801 Автор, конечно, стремиться обелить большевиков

              “So, due to a number of objective reasons, repressions against families of military experts did not spread in Soviet Russia. If such measures were practiced in red, the anti-Bolshevik press would not suppress them, but, on the contrary, exaggerating many times, tried to give them maximum publicity. However, nothing There wasn’t anything like that, even in anti-Bolshevik sources mentioning hostage-taking of military families single, their reliability is not verifiable.“Why do you need a check? Why do you need certainty? You better know what you don’t know, you’ll come up with a non-policeman. I understand that, in general, a khan with an evidence base, since you brought a similar source? Where is it noted that they were are single, and their reliability cannot be verified. There is no other information, but it is necessary to prove our fabrications. Sorry.
        2. BAI
          BAI 13 February 2018 13: 42
          +3
          Dear, they took hostages from their families.

          Do not distort.
          They took hostages so that he would not serve the whites. Forcibly, nobody pulled class alien elements into the Red Army. On the contrary, they expelled, but in vain.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 13 February 2018 15: 03
            +2
            Quote: BAI
            They took hostages so that he would not serve the whites. Forcibly nobody pulled class alien elements into the Red Army

            You would know about FORCED mobilization in the Red Army since May 1918
            1. BAI
              BAI 13 February 2018 21: 07
              +3
              Private, not officers. Give at least one example when a tsarist officer was forced to serve in a command post in the Red Army.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 14 February 2018 10: 52
                +1
                Quote: BAI
                Give at least one example when a tsarist officer was forced to serve in a command post in the Red Army

                ALL officers DRAWN.
        3. Alexander Greene
          Alexander Greene 13 February 2018 19: 24
          +3
          Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
          Dear, they took hostages from their families. Do you understand? Mothers, wives, children.

          Do all have 70 thousand? Multiply 70 thousand families by the average family, how much will it turn out? Where so much to contain and how to feed?
      2. Olgovich
        Olgovich 13 February 2018 11: 19
        +3
        Quote: Alex_59
        Did they threaten you to force them into service with fierce enemies?

        If you take your family hostage, deprive them of rations (and there is no other job in the economy destroyed by the Bolsheviks), then you are sure to go.
        Where are you going?
        1. Alex_59
          Alex_59 13 February 2018 11: 30
          +7
          Quote: Olgovich
          then you are sure to go.

          On their own people are not judged. You would go for Hitler too, I believe with pleasure. Rations are more important.
          Quote: Olgovich
          Where are you going?
          I expect from you an accurate list of 60 of thousands of villages that died due to the deliberate actions of the authorities in the USSR.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 13 February 2018 13: 34
            +2
            Quote: Alex_59
            On their own people are not judged. Rations are more important.


            There simply was no other way for the military families to survive — either to serve for fear, or to doom the family to torment and death.
            Quote: Alex_59
            I expect from you an accurate list of 60 of thousands of villages that died due to the deliberate actions of the authorities in the USSR.

            You were given a source, Or are you also a tankman, like Ava and others, who need to BE REPEATed countless times? request
            "Itself. Itself!" hi
            1. Alex_59
              Alex_59 13 February 2018 13: 56
              +4
              Quote: Olgovich
              There simply was no other way for the military families to survive — either to serve for fear, or to doom the family to torment and death.
              Well yes, I get it. And a crowd of healthy men in epaulettes humbly went to kill former colleagues. Norm good

              Quote: Olgovich
              You were given a source, Or are you also a tankman, like Ava and others, who need to BE REPEATed countless times?
              I am not a tanker, I am closer to the missile forces and aviation. Regarding the source - please be kind, please repeat, otherwise you write so much on the forum, I do not have time to track all your matches. If there will be all 60 of thousands of villages by name indicating the date and reasons for the killing, I will be delighted.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 13 February 2018 15: 11
                +1
                Quote: Alex_59
                Well yes, I get it. And a crowd of healthy men in epaulettes humbly went to kill former colleagues. The norm

                They were called up to the army, supposedly, of the country, and not to the NKVD. And the army usually exists to protect against EXTERNAL aggressors. Again incomprehensible? belay
                Several thousand generally voluntarily went into the "veil" to protect against it. occupiers.
                Quote: Alex_59
                I am not a tanker, I am closer to the missile forces and aviation.

                And by the "speed" of understanding, the "tanker" hi
                Quote: Alex_59
                Regarding the source - please, please repeat, otherwise you write so much on the forum

                I wrote exactly YOU. I repeat: L.N. Denisova "The Disappearing Village of Russia"
                1. Alex_59
                  Alex_59 14 February 2018 07: 19
                  +4
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  And by the "speed" of understanding, the "tanker"

                  I hope the Soldafon-Petrosyan humor gives you joyful moments, have fun on health. hi
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  I wrote exactly YOU. I repeat: L.N. Denisova "The Disappearing Village of Russia"

                  "Just for you" is in a personal, but I do not watch letters from you. In fact. I downloaded the specified book and I'm very saddened, because there is not a word about how the councils violently and deliberately destroyed the rural population and villages. There is not even a list of 60 thousand villages allegedly destroyed with intent. And this is very sad, I would study this list, especially in my region. It is very interesting how many villages the authors of such a list could put in the "exterminated" and which ones. For example, a good half of the microdistricts of my city built up during the Soviet era are called villages that flowed into the metropolis. And this, of course, is very cruel - pay attention to how sadistic the communists creeped up the unsuspecting villages by building cities, and then they suddenly resettled the inhabitants, demolished the empty barracks and built stone high-rise buildings. This is undoubtedly monstrous. I’m also wondering if those villages and villages that the communists cynically filled with the population and transferred to the status of the city will be included in this list? I hope you, Olgovich, as an objective researcher, have also studied this issue and can name the exact number of villages and settlements in the non-black soil developed in cities during the Soviet period. Or weak?
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 14 February 2018 11: 14
                    +1
                    Quote: Alex_59
                    I hope the Soldafon-Petrosyan humor gives you joyful moments, have fun on health.

                    Thank you, good! yes
                    Quote: Alex_59
                    there is not a word about how the advice is violent and intentionally destroyed the rural population and villages

                    Who speaks of "premeditation"? fool
                    EVERYTHING that the Bolsheviks-tens of millions of starved to death, cannibalism, corpse-eating, the Russian Cross, turned by them into the desert of the Non-Black Soil, etc., did them all NOT intentionally, but because of their unreasonableness and illiteracy.
                    Quote: Alex_59
                    There is not even a list of 60 thousand villages allegedly destroyed with intent.

                    You have been given a monograph, if you understand WHAT it is. EVERY phrase in monographs (and here too) is confirmed by LINKS.
                    The statement about the dead 60 thousand (from 180 thousand) villages has a link. Open the link and READ!
                    "She herself!" yes
                    Quote: Alex_59
                    I also wonder Will those villages and villages that the Communists cynically filled with the population and transferred to the status of the city be put on this list? I hope you, Olgovich, as an objective researcher, studied this issue and you can name the exact number of villages and towns in the non-chernozem region developed in cities during the Soviet period. Or weak?

                    Read the MONOGRAPHY of Denisova, open and study the links, it is SO curious people who satisfy their interests. It is difficult to read, tedious, very long ... So this is not fiction, but scientific work.
                    wink Weak?
                    1. Alex_59
                      Alex_59 14 February 2018 15: 00
                      +3
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      The statement about the dead 60 thousand (from 180 thousand) villages has a link. Open the link and READ!

                      Well, I read, not a question. Only it will take some time. Could still lay out, since you have this innermost knowledge. I don’t see a problem.
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      So this is not fiction, but scientific work.
                      Weak?

                      You have a lot of arrogant words about the case. So the data on how many villages have been transformed into cities per ter. you do not have non-black soil. This is a sad, objective researcher, and even calling for "herself, herself" could raise these numbers. But they do not seem to fit into your theory, so you do not want to advertise them. We have to take the scientific work upon ourselves.
                      So, from 1917 to 1991 years, in the territory of non-black soil from villages and villages to cities, 277 settlements were transformed. That is 3,7 facility per year. From these 277 cities, 74 cities were built from scratch. From scratch - this means that a significant part of the capital buildings was erected in a clean field, and partly by the demolition of several small villages that fell into the line of the new city. It is important to note that, due to the increase in the area, the towns regularly absorbed the surrounding villages, and the newly formed cities could incorporate a dozen previously existing villages. For example, the city of Berezniki was founded on the site of 11 towns and villages. They were not destroyed, but administratively subordinated to a new entity - the city of Berezniki. At the same time, on the construction area of ​​this city, 1926 rural residents lived in 7000, and in 1939 there were already 51000 urban residents. And this is a typical situation.
                      At the moment, there are 511 cities in the non-black soil regions. 277 of them are the result of the development of the Soviet era. In other words, 54% of the cities of non-black soil owe their appearance to the Soviet period of history, and 15% of them were built from scratch.
                      The numbers are confirmed by population statistics.
                      1926 g. - 147 million people, of which 26,3 million city dwellers
                      1980 g. - 264 million people, of which 166,2 million city
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 14 February 2018 15: 52
                        0
                        Quote: Alex_59
                        . Could still lay out, since you have this innermost knowledge. I do not see a problem.

                        Why crush water in a mortar if there are no problems? request
                        Quote: Alex_59
                        You have a lot of arrogant words about the case.


                        Arrogant is how? belay
                        Quote: Alex_59
                        So, 1917 on 1991 over the years on the territory of non-chernozem territory from villages and villages to cities 277 settlements were transformed

                        - for 74 years! - It's a disgrace ..... And at the same time, they made the TARGET without people in the heart of Russia, where less than a hundred years ago they KILLED for a piece of land.
                        Quote: Alex_59
                        The numbers are confirmed by population statistics.
                        1926 g. - 147 million people, of which 26,3 million city dwellers
                        1980 g. - 264 million people, of which 166,2 million city

                        These are disaster figures, if you do not understand.
                        1917 g-145 million (within the RSFSR). Over 10 years (1926 g), a total of 2 million growth. Despite the fact that before the thief the population annually increased by about 3 million people.
                        Since 1964, Russians are dying outhttp://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/2010/0417/tema02.p
                        hp .. THE FIRST in Europe to achieve this: before the French, who until 1917 and in the soles of Russia were not suitable.
                        The Russian Cross is a consequence of the policy of the "party".
                        Where will you take the Russians now?
                        Or invite classy close Chinese? Arabs? Negroes?
    3. BAI
      BAI 13 February 2018 10: 13
      +8
      To cite as an example the Judas-careerist Slashchev, who betrayed his own, having crossed over to the Bolsheviks, this, of course, is strong ...

      Of course, we must follow the brilliant, until the end of the patriotic General Krasnov:
      I ask you to tell all the Cossacks that this war is not against Russia, but against the Communists, the Jews and their minions who sell Russian blood. May the Lord help German weapons and Hitler! Let them do what the Russians and Emperor Alexander I did for Prussia in 1813 [36] [37]
      1. Lieutenant Teterin
        Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 11: 00
        +4
        On the Cossack separatist Krasnov, you wanted to say?
        1. parusnik
          parusnik 13 February 2018 12: 46
          +5
          Is this Krasnov a separatist? Not a valiant white general? Yes, he was side by side with A.I. Denikin, on the contrary, as someone under the name Gopnik of the plague of Bolshevism ISIS of the 20th century put it, fought ..then together with Hitler, shoulder to shoulder .. Just think of it, he sniffed with the Germans. .so against whom, against the German hirelings of the Bolsheviks .. The empress, too, according to the liberal press, called a direct Kaiser on the phone .. And the Kuban Cossacks were also separatists, moreover, the Cossacks of Taman swore an oath to the Kaiser .. I am just silent about the glorious ataman Semenov, true patriot, on the content of Japan .. I did not get along with everything savior of the fatherland and the Omsk Director, Kolchak, later Merkulovymi..A brothers got on well with the Japanese ...
          1. Lieutenant Teterin
            Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 13: 20
            +3
            Yes, Krasnov is a separatist, and I have never denied this. The man considered himself more a Cossack than a Russian citizen, and with the seizure of power by the Bolsheviks, he was more concerned about the "independence of the Don Army", as a result of which he turned to the Germans.
            1. parusnik
              parusnik 13 February 2018 15: 09
              +4
              Lieutenant, Krasnov earlier turned to the Kaiser back in 1918 ... when his German spies the Bolsheviks in 1917 released on parole ...
              1. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 17: 36
                0
                Actually, I meant 1918. And cooperation with the Nazis is beyond the limits.
        2. BAI
          BAI 13 February 2018 13: 17
          +5
          On the Cossack separatist Krasnov, you wanted to say?

          If you can more accurately express myself, I would like to say: At the renegade Krasnov "
          In accordance with the conclusions of the Main Military Prosecutor's Office on the refusal of their rehabilitation, the rulings of the Military Collegium of the Supreme Court of the Russian Federation of December 25, 1997, German citizens Krasnov P.N., Shkuro A.G., Sultan-Girey Klych, Krasnov S.N. and Domanov T. I., were recognized as reasonably convicted and not subject to rehabilitation, about which all initiators of appeals on the issue of rehabilitation of these persons were notified.

          On January 28, 2008, the Council of Atamans of the organization “The Great Don Host” made a decision, which noted: “... historical facts indicate that an active fighter against the Bolsheviks during the Civil War, writer and publicist P.N. Krasnov during the Great Patriotic War collaborated with fascist Germany; <…> Attaching exceptional importance to the above, the Council of Atamans decided: to refuse the petition to the non-profit foundation “Cossack Abroad” in resolving the issue of the political rehabilitation of P. N. Krasnov ”[46]. Viktor Vodolatsky himself emphasized: “The fact of his cooperation with Hitler during the war makes the idea of ​​his rehabilitation completely unacceptable for us” [46]. The initiative was condemned by veterans of the Great Patriotic War and representatives of the Russian Orthodox Church [48].

          Which he is recognized by the prosecutor's office, historians, the Cossacks and (not respected by me) the Russian Orthodox Church.
    4. avt
      avt 13 February 2018 13: 03
      +7
      Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
      No more than 20% of officers fought on the side of the Reds, most of whom were forced to serve by threats to them and their loved ones.

      bully good They cried, pricked, but ate a cactus, so much so that, together with the Bolsheviks, they stole the remaining 80%, “knights in white robes” bully
      Quote: avva2012
      Served in the Red Army, 70.000-75.000 people, tons

      Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
      Kavtoradze is a Soviet historian and wrote under the ideological press of the party.

      bully Fy fsё frete-ee-ee !!!
      Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
      Sergei Volkov, who studied biography of the Russian officer corps for 30 years.

      As one American, Stalin’s repressions on the "memories of" emigrants? He wrote a handbook for all the "de-Stalinists" whom they refer to as the Bible Or as a tackler Solzhenitsyn in his chronicles, without even visiting the GULAG archives upon arrival? bully
      1. Lieutenant Teterin
        Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 13: 30
        +4
        The article that I cited, you seemed embarrassed to read. It happens.
        It was not 80% of the officers who fought on the side of the whites, but less, about 62%, because some officers who received the rank in wartime simply settled “in civilian clothes” and hid their past.
        And yes, civil wars are won not by those who have more officers, but by those who do not hesitate to take any measures, including lying to people wholeheartedly. The Bolsheviks took a number of what they themselves say — read any sources on the GW. By bribing, threats, propaganda, artificial hunger, they managed to secure an advantage. Because in the Civil War between a politician and a military politician will win. And the Bolsheviks were terrorist politicians.
        As for the objectivity of Soviet historians ... First you read the Soviet history textbooks for 1951 and, say, 1963. Compare - and get the answer to the question of whether Soviet historians can be considered objective.
        But the lie about the denunciations of Solzhenitsyn in the camp could not be repeated. I’m ashamed all the same.
        1. avt
          avt 13 February 2018 14: 02
          +5
          Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
          But the lie about the denunciations of Solzhenitsyn in the camp could not be repeated. I’m ashamed all the same.

          It’s a shame not to know the chronicler’s gistoria, although .. to the sectarians it is useless to explain this.
          Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
          The Bolsheviks took a number of what they themselves say — read any sources on the GW.

          bully Again, it’s utterly useless for the sectarian of the noble assembly of the Proletarian region to explain a simple fact, like a lowing, fact - So this is the complete and unconditional surrender of the white movement! Which, in fact, could not attract the people to their side. By the way, all these Osad okhvitsery, gaa-aluba princes, those same Alekseev-Kornilov-Rus betrayed their king and the power of their ruling class. So in fact the Bolsheviks .... also paid off for February 1917 with specific traitors !!! bully And with some people like General Ruzsky, who actually arrested Nikolashka the Bloody and arrested at the Dno station, they completely executed the verdict for treason. bully
          1. Gopnik
            Gopnik 13 February 2018 14: 42
            +3
            You write some triviality. It is clear that the Reds were able to mobilize more people into their army and therefore won the Civil War.
            The Reds participated in the February Revolution and saluted it, just as they had betrayed the king, and even killed him. And to listen to you, you write them down as monarchists.
            1. parusnik
              parusnik 13 February 2018 15: 14
              +3
              The Reds participated in the February Revolution and welcomed it
              ..Is this about Kirill Vladimirovich Romanov? He was the first member of the imperial family to violate the oath of the tsar and declare that he personally and the military unit entrusted to him went over to the side of the State Duma and were glad of the revolution.
              1. Gopnik
                Gopnik 13 February 2018 15: 28
                +2
                With elementary logic, you’ve got absolutely bad luck ... The fact that the Reds participated in the February Revolution does not mean that only they participated in it.
                1. parusnik
                  parusnik 13 February 2018 15: 37
                  +4
                  Oh how! And who do you think are the Reds, the participants in the February Revolution, the women who staged the demonstrations, and to what color do the workers from the military-industrial complex of the military industry belong ... And did the white people participate in the February Revolution?
                  1. Gopnik
                    Gopnik 13 February 2018 15: 48
                    +2
                    Yes, the future "reds" in a future civil war are, first of all, the majority of workers and soldiers of the garrison. Yes, future “whites” also participated. Although, judging by the fact that the Bolsheviks even confidently won the elections in the U.S. in Petrograd, most of the participants in the February Maidan in the future war will be "red".
                    1. parusnik
                      parusnik 13 February 2018 15: 53
                      +4
                      But still, who are the white ... who participated in the February revolution from the future white ... name the red ones and the white ones ... Guchkov, Milyukov, Kerensky, Nekrasov who they are white or red .. Continue ..
                      1. Gopnik
                        Gopnik 13 February 2018 16: 08
                        +2
                        for example, the former Semenovsky regiment, which switched to the white.
            2. avt
              avt 13 February 2018 16: 17
              +5
              Quote: Gopnik
              The Reds participated in the February Revolution and saluted it, just as they had betrayed the king, and even killed him.

              request Great is the wisdom of the people in their sayings - ,, To teach fools to only spoil " request
              Quote: Gopnik
              "Reds" participated in the February revolution

              That's for sure! Even new-mannered movies show where exactly these
              Quote: Gopnik
              The Reds

              were until February, ALL the defendants were painted and not Dzerzhinsky, but the front commander, General Ruzsky, who had arrested the tsar, but ... even if the number on the head is comic. They will believe in the glitches of Radzinsky, who, along with the KGB major Aldonin, buried his skulls ... and then solemnly discovered bully And do not care the statement of specific leaders of that time - ,, Nobody will ever know what we did with them. "Mitrofanushki on the march are insane.
              1. Gopnik
                Gopnik 13 February 2018 16: 25
                +1
                Quote: avt
                Great is the wisdom of the people in their sayings - ,, To teach fools to only spoil "


                This, of course, explains your ignorance, but does not justify it.

                Quote: avt
                were before February, ALL the defendants were painted, and not Dzerzhinsky, but the commander of the front, General Ruzsky, who had arrested the tsar, but ... even if the number on the head is comic. They will believe in the glitches of Radzinsky, who, along with the KGB major Aldonin, buried their skulls ... and then solemnly, "discovered" .


                Can you somehow explain this stream of consciousness?
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 13 February 2018 17: 08
                  0
                  Quote: Gopnik
                  Can you somehow explain this flow consciousness?

                  He is constantly in it, TONET .... lol
                2. avt
                  avt 13 February 2018 17: 16
                  +6
                  Quote: Gopnik
                  Can you somehow explain this stream of consciousness?

                  I return such sectarians to the world of reality on a paid basis.
          2. Lieutenant Teterin
            Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 18: 11
            +2
            Quote: avt
            although .. to the sectarians it is useless to explain.

            In this you are right — it is useless to explain to sectarians, therefore I do not expect to reach out to your conscience and your consciousness, but I count on other people reading this comment.
            It has long been refuted: https://corporatelie.livejournal.com/1453.html
            that Solzhenitsyn allegedly wrote denunciations. The story with the slander allegedly written by him was made up, and the paper was a fake. Solzhenitsyn agreed to a graphological examination, but the person who accused him flatly refused this examination. It is clear why — an examination would immediately reveal the falsity of the paper.

            Quote: avt
            So this is the complete and unconditional surrender of the white movement!

            And again, you interpret the facts exclusively in the light you need. Why do you need to explain common truths, like a college student? The mass nature of the spacecraft was caused not by “popular support”, but by the large number of provinces captured by the Bolsheviks and effective political methods of mobilizing the population. Once again I say — in the Civil War, the most unprincipled, cruel and cynical participant wins. Look at Syria. Huge territories of the country are seized by terrorists, a legitimate government is held with the help of Russia. Do you really say that on the lands seized by terrorists, the population supports terrorists, and the legitimate government “unconditionally surrendered”?
            1. avt
              avt 13 February 2018 19: 19
              +2
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              The mass nature of the spacecraft was caused not by “popular support”, but by the large number of provinces captured by the Bolsheviks and effective political methods of mobilizing the population.

              bully The sect of the bakers is indestructible in tenacity. bully How, with what kind of "terror" will you force you to fight for yourself in arms?! Moreover, the people who have been let through your First Nicholas the Bloody through the First World War for 4 years ???
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              the crowded provinces captured by the Bolsheviks

              When the Soviet Republic got bored to the spot around Moscow! Your ,, white knights "stupidly pissed off precisely because of their lack of ideality. And you can be calm being
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              like a college student

              if you don’t learn the lessons of History, get a repeat no matter how many spells about the collapse of the “natural” mantra sang. Unlike the homegrown, “noble” people who threw off the bast shoes of impostors, the same Marxism carefully studies universities. And the experience of Soviet Russia too. If they hadn’t stupidly blamed with their monarchism, they would have really seen that current globalism is the tracing-paper of Trotsky’s permanent revolution. And if one looked at the stormy youth of the Western elite at the helm of public policy, they would have been completely sure that the real Trotskyists. Like Chubais, who does not hide his sympathy for Trotsky. And the film-anthem to Trotsky for the centenary of the Great October Revolution was not just painted on the first channel. So the monarchical asad of nobility ... stock up on party tickets. bully
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 14 February 2018 11: 24
                +1
                Quote: avt
                How, what kind of "terror" do you force to fight for yourself with weapons in your arms ?!

                Terror against FAMILY, famine against FAMILY, deprivation of home FAMILY
                Quote: avt
                Yes, even the people who have been passed through World War I for 4 years already by your Nicholas the Bloody ???

                Such atrocities that the Bolsheviks committed against the people, and there was no mention of any war
                1. Alexander Greene
                  Alexander Greene 14 February 2018 19: 26
                  +3
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Such atrocities that the Bolsheviks committed against the people, and there was no mention of any war

                  White were worse. They were still gathering forces, and they already caught workers from sub-detachments, ripped open their bellies, stuffed with grain and sent them to cars in cars.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 15 February 2018 11: 39
                    +1
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    They were still gathering forces, and they already caught workers from sub-detachments, ripped open their bellies, stuffed with grain and sent them to cars in cars.

                    A worker from food detachments is no longer a worker, but a bandit to be destroyed. Destroyed by their peasants, who were trying to rob and doom to starvation
                    “Carriages with open bellies” is something new belay
                    1. Alexander Greene
                      Alexander Greene 15 February 2018 23: 41
                      +1
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      A worker from food detachments is no longer a worker, but a bandit to be destroyed. Destroyed by their peasants, who were trying to rob and doom to starvation
                      “Carriages with open bellies” is something new

                      Firstly, food detachments procured bread at solid state prices, they didn’t just take anything from anyone. The surplus was requisitioned only from saboteur fists.
                      Secondly, you need to be seriously treated, you no longer perceive the text. Where did you see Wagons with Opened Stomachs? And about the open stomachs of food detachments and the death train to Moscow, read in the memoirs.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 16 February 2018 09: 47
                        0
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        Firstly, food detachments procured bread at solid state prices, no onewhy didn’t they just take it away. The surplus was requisitioned only from saboteur fists.

                        Leave your nonsense for the same Bolshevik sectarians.
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        Secondly, you need to be seriously treated, you no longer perceive the text. Where did you see Wagons with Opened Stomachs? And about the open stomachs of food detachments and the death train to Moscow, read in the memoirs.

                        You. lol
            2. avva2012
              avva2012 14 February 2018 06: 44
              +3
              It has long been refuted: https://corporatelie.livejournal.com/1453.html

              corporatelie- "This blog:" is simply an attempt to present a subjective (private) position on some historical issues graduate student St. Petersburg Institute of History of the Russian Academy of Sciences (2012-2016) and doctoral student at oxford university (2016-), and now still rather chaotically and chaotically structured drafts of the alleged candidate dissertation "Mortality of prisoners in the penitentiary system of the Russian Empire and the USSR: a comparison in a historical context." Not tired of climbing enemy bins?
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 14 February 2018 11: 26
                +1
                Quote: avva2012
                corporatelie- "This blog:" is simply an attempt to present a subjective (private) position on some questions of the history of a graduate student of the St. Petersburg Institute of History of the Russian Academy of Sciences (2012-2016) and a doctoral student at Oxford University (2016-), and now it is still rather chaotic and chaotic structured drafts of the proposed Ph.D. thesis "Mortality of Prisoners in the Prison System of the Russian Empire and the USSR: Comparison in a Historical Context". Not tired of climbing enemy bins?

                You are the facts given there, can refute? Not?
                So why waste in vain? request
  11. bober1982
    bober1982 13 February 2018 09: 22
    +6
    The article is ridiculous and illiterate, how can one talk about Bulgakov’s play in such a way!
    Samsonov, Russian officers and cadets defended the Russian city of Kiev from the gangs of Petlyura, then there were no whites, no need to compose, read a book at your leisure.
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 13 February 2018 09: 46
      +5
      Quote: bober1982
      Russian officers and cadets defended the Russian city of Kiev from the gangs of Petlyura

      Are you sure about that?
      1. bober1982
        bober1982 13 February 2018 10: 04
        +5
        Have you read the book? With whom did the burry Colonel Nai-Tours, Nikolka, Turbin and his comrades fight?
        And whose gangs seized and terrorized the Big City, then there was no red spirit.
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 13 February 2018 10: 17
          +2
          Quote: bober1982
          And whose gangs seized and terrorized the Big City, then there was no red spirit.

          Honestly. There is a book, but I have not read it. Video from 34 min:
          1. bober1982
            bober1982 13 February 2018 10: 22
            +5
            Quote: Boris55
            There is a book, but I have not read it.

            And I have this book - desktop, I recommend.
            With all due respect to Basov (director), he, like any great artist, can allow some liberties. The book is completely different.
            By the way, the play is well known Days of Turbines - Stalin's favorite.
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 13 February 2018 10: 52
              +2
              Quote: bober1982
              With all due respect to Basov (director), he, like any great artist, can allow some liberties. The book is completely different

              It so happened that the movie "Turbine Days" was watched before it acquired the book. I liked the film and reluctance to spoil the impression, but suddenly ... Regarding artistic fiction, it is present both in the director and the writer. In addition, different people assimilate information in different ways: some are better written, others are oral. hi
              1. bober1982
                bober1982 13 February 2018 11: 02
                +4
                Basov had a television show, he was limited in showing action, if you take a modern film - a lot of directorial fantasies, and the film in my opinion is unsuccessful.
                During the Civil War, Bulgakov served both white and red, he had less fantasies than modern masters.
                1. Gopnik
                  Gopnik 13 February 2018 14: 43
                  +1
                  And where did the Bulgakov serve with the Reds?
                  1. bober1982
                    bober1982 13 February 2018 14: 58
                    +1
                    Bulgakov served for mobilization for everyone, as a military doctor - for Petlyura (deserted), for the Reds (deserted), the white army, he also did not consider his own.
                    1. Gopnik
                      Gopnik 13 February 2018 15: 02
                      +2
                      That's about the red, to be honest, did not listen. And when and where did Bulgakov serve in the Red Army?
                      And how do you know that
                      Quote: bober1982
                      the white army, he, too, did not consider
                      ?
                      1. bober1982
                        bober1982 13 February 2018 15: 11
                        +2
                        Unfortunately, during this difficult period Mikhail Afanasevich became interested in morphine, unfortunately. He, as you might guess, did not consider any army to be his own.
                        Quote: Gopnik
                        And when and where Bulgakov served in the Red Army

                        During the period of a large change of power in Kiev, he incidentally has an autobiographical story Extraordinary adventures of the doctor
          2. avt
            avt 13 February 2018 13: 06
            +7
            Quote: Boris55
            Honestly. There is a book, but I have not read it.

            In vain. What you give as an example is “two big differences.” Bulgakov has a book on this subject and a SCENARIO for a theatrical production. Comrade Stalin’s favorite thing, by the way.
            Quote: bober1982
            With all due respect to Basov (director), he, like any great artist, can allow some liberties. The book is completely different.

            Naturally, as explained above, while Basov perfectly filmed precisely the SCRIPT of Bulgakov, and not the book. But the new series was shot according to a new scenario, not Bulgakov’s, based on the book.
        2. parusnik
          parusnik 13 February 2018 12: 49
          +3
          With whom did the burry Colonel Nai-Tours, Nikolka, Turbin and his comrades fight?
          ..We fought with Petliura, and defended the Ukrainian Power of Skoropadsky, the former tsarist general ...
          1. bober1982
            bober1982 13 February 2018 12: 57
            +4
            Quote: parusnik
            ..We fought with Petliura, and defended the Ukrainian Power of Skoropadsky, the former tsarist general ...

            Skoropadsky escaped, there remained a defenseless city and small detachments of Russian officers and junkers, they did not defend any Ukrainian Power.
            1. Okolotochny
              Okolotochny 13 February 2018 17: 54
              +7
              They protected the cat so that it did not become a whale.
              1. bober1982
                bober1982 13 February 2018 18: 00
                +2
                and when Bulgakov asked ......But what about the whale? , with M.A. Ukrainian-anxious comrade ceased to say hello.
            2. parusnik
              parusnik 13 February 2018 18: 34
              +2
              Kaaak? ... But Leonid Yuryevich Shervinsky comes out as a traitor, went to the adjutants at Getman .. And the turbines and the rest just sat in uniforms in apartments and did not serve anyone, as soon as Petlyura went to Kiev decided to defend Kiev ..
              1. bober1982
                bober1982 13 February 2018 18: 53
                +1
                In the arrogant eyes of little Shervinsky .........
                Well, what do you want from this type.
                1. parusnik
                  parusnik 13 February 2018 19: 06
                  +2
                  We are not talking about Shirvinsky ..
                  Skoropadsky escaped, there remained a defenseless city and small detachments of Russian officers and junkers, they did not defend any Ukrainian Power.
                  ..Before the flight of Skoropadsky, there were no detachments of officers and junkers? .. They appeared after the flight of Skoropadsky ..? .. Do not answer .. I read the White Guard ...
                  1. bober1982
                    bober1982 13 February 2018 19: 12
                    +1
                    Quote: parusnik
                    Do not answer

                    And you ask the questions themselves, curious. I really want to answer, but if the request is such ......
                    1. parusnik
                      parusnik 13 February 2018 19: 21
                      +5
                      And the meaning ..? An opponent wrote to you that you didn’t read the novel, you didn’t use his knowledge .. I summed up that I read the novel, you read the novel .. everything is written as it was .. Hmm .. you ask questions .. Yes, I asked, it was interesting read your answers in which hope shone .. what if he didn’t read? ..I'd like to answer..we will post excerpts from the novel to each other ... I don’t see the point .. hi
                      1. bober1982
                        bober1982 13 February 2018 19: 25
                        +2
                        And to you my sincere respect and respect.
                  2. Okolotochny
                    Okolotochny 13 February 2018 20: 40
                    +9
                    That's right, Alexey, I'm talking about the same thing. The white movement did not have a common idea. No, one was lime red. But this is a minimum program. And here is the void. Because of this, they lost. Without an idea, the people did not follow them.
                    1. parusnik
                      parusnik 13 February 2018 21: 23
                      +4
                      The ideas of the White Movement came true today ... rather in 1991 .. Compare, in 1918, the nationalists came to power in the Baltic States and in 1991. well, the same thing ... And so in all republics .. And in Russia the same centrifugal actions took place in 1991 that in Russia 1918 .. all the Kuban Rada, Don, Bashkir, Tatar Kurlutai .. The Bolsheviks delayed by 75 years what was supposed to happen after February 1917 .. and would happen .. Let's say .. the white won ... Denikin took Moscow ..And all the outskirts of him happily fled? Transcaucasia, Central Asia, the Baltic States, Finland, Poland, Ukraine..A I would give Bessarabia a wash of face with tears in her eyes .. they say take it only for you .. I doubt it .. In the Caucasus, Central Asia, the British put their bulldog’s eyes .. In Ukraine, France .. German positions were strong in the Baltic states, in the Far The East was claimed by the USA and Japan .. And that White Russia would go to war with Europe, the USA and Japan .. for what kind of bumps .. Again, Russia needed to repay the debts taken from these countries during the WWII .. the allies would have claimed anyway .. Such happiness rushing into the hands .. Would be in bondage to the ears ... But why do they believe in the decency of the allies .. Guys, carefully read the story .. Who are our allies ..? These are the countries that, fearing the strengthening of Russia in the Balkans, started a war against it in 1855. Also, 23 years later they deprived Russia of "gold medals" at the Berlin Congress .. for its successes in the Russian-Turkish war of 1877-78 .. They are they helped Japan in every possible way during the Russo-Japanese war .. Why? They feared the strengthening of Russia in the Far East .. And after the victory of the White movement, in the civil war, they would have rushed to restore Russia free of charge, to strengthen its power ..? If many people believe in it .. I don’t believe .. Yes, and the situation today, all European countries understand that Krymnash and everything is legal, they don’t want to recognize .. Why? All the same, strengthening Russia is not beneficial ... Therefore, the tears for White Russia and the movement are not clear to me ...
                      1. Okolotochny
                        Okolotochny 13 February 2018 21: 31
                        +7
                        It is hard to disagree with you. And the "allies" - in the 90s, and many now have waited and are waiting for the "allies" of technology and investment. Indeed, neither one nor the other. We climb ourselves.
  12. Ural resident
    Ural resident 13 February 2018 10: 03
    +12
    Well, in the best traditions, marginal Stalinists are trying to prove that the Red Terror was the only truth.
    it has long been understood that a civil war was inevitable due to accumulated contradictions, and this was a big disaster for Russia. Both were good - the white shot, and the red shot even more.
    However, I do not agree that White was fulfilling someone's order. The principles of the monarchical structure of the country were unshakable for them, and they defended them. So they were brought up, grew up on these principles. As a result of white emigration, the country has lost about 2 million educated, patriotic people, in fact, the national elite, which we now lack. Emigrated with families, children.
    The further life of emigrants outside Russia, depression, the desire to return to their homeland is known. I think I don’t have to talk about Kutepov’s camp near Gallipoli. Many later returned under an alleged amnesty, but the Soviet government did not forgive ideological opponents. Flooded barges are an example.
    All ideas to classify the opponents of the Reds as enemies of the motherland are criminal - it was under these slogans that the Russians of Russia went to kill - the main basis to bring. Enough to sow discord in society - people have the right to their views. And these stamps about liberoids are also fed up with something like that. There is nothing wrong with liberalism, and those employees of public state-sponsored organizations that pretend to be liberal views, are not liberals, they are just as ideologically pumped up and do not recognize a different point of view.
    1. Dzmicer
      Dzmicer 13 February 2018 10: 42
      +6
      hi My regards!
      already understood long ago that a civil war was inevitable due to accumulated contradictions

      These "unsolvable contradictions" exist only in the Marxist rechkarya, the war was caused by the concrete actions of specific people, whose activities may well be condemned both from the point of view of morality and from the point of view of law.
      The principles of the monarchical structure of the country were unshakable for them, and they defended them.

      Let me disagree: there were an absolute minority of monarchists in the ranks of the dobrarmia (of all the formations, except that the Drozdovites can be clearly attributed to the pro-monarchist). The “whites” primarily defended the principle of legality, by no means a monarchist one.
      There is nothing wrong with liberalism

      For this phrase, local elders, whose idea of ​​liberalism is fostered by "ethnic liberals" on a salary from Zhmerynka and Konotop (whose ancestors were mostly Chekists / NKVD officers / prominent party members or other Rusorez), are likely to be ostracized, called a fascist henchman, a bald man and generally fascist. laughing
      1. Alexander Greene
        Alexander Greene 13 February 2018 19: 49
        +3
        Quote: Dzmicer
        HB was caused by specific actions of specific people,

        This is called foolishness. Civil war is caused by objective reasons - peacefully insoluble contradictions that accumulate in society.
        1. Dzmicer
          Dzmicer 13 February 2018 21: 10
          +1
          Kaltanai-maltanai-width-vyrin-mordekhai

          Ugh, a Masonic re-shoot.
          1. Alexander Greene
            Alexander Greene 14 February 2018 01: 32
            +4
            Quote: Dzmicer
            Kaltanai-maltanai-width-vyrin-mordekhai
            Ugh, a Masonic re-shoot.

            Are you talking to me? Then not at the address. Your vyser is really Masonic.
        2. Dart2027
          Dart2027 13 February 2018 22: 57
          0
          Quote: Alexander Green
          Civil war is caused by objective reasons

          Each accident or catastrophe has a name, surname and patronymic.
          1. Alexander Greene
            Alexander Greene 14 February 2018 01: 27
            +3
            Quote: Dart2027
            Each accident or catastrophe has a name, surname and patronymic.

            Does the global flood have it too?
            1. Dart2027
              Dart2027 14 February 2018 06: 25
              +1
              The Lord decided to punish mankind for sins and sent a flood to them. As you can see there.
              1. Alexander Greene
                Alexander Greene 14 February 2018 21: 23
                0
                Quote: Dart2027
                the Lord decided to punish mankind for sins and sent a flood to them. As you can see there.

                The Lord is nothing more than a myth, and the flood was real, how can a myth do something material?
                1. Dart2027
                  Dart2027 14 February 2018 22: 23
                  +1
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  The Lord is no more than a myth, and the flood was real

                  Firstly, the global flood is also no more than a myth.
                  Secondly, do you know the difference between human activities and natural phenomena?
                  1. Alexander Greene
                    Alexander Greene 15 February 2018 23: 16
                    +1
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    Firstly, the global flood is also no more than a myth.
                    Secondly, do you know the difference between human activities and natural phenomena?

                    Firstly, science proved that the global flood was on earth, and secondly, the civil war, like all natural disasters, occurs due to objective conditions and reasons.
                    1. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 16 February 2018 05: 53
                      +1
                      Quote: Alexander Green
                      First, science has proven that the Flood was on earth.
                      What about the Noah's Ark?
                      Quote: Alexander Green
                      civil war, like all natural disasters occur
                      Because they are organized by very specific people.
                      Quote: Alexander Green
                      Dear, what school did you study in with the USE? In the USSR, even schoolchildren for UO knew about socio-economic formations and the direction of progress

                      In schools of the USSR they said a lot of things ... But in practice it turned out that these were only beautiful words.
                      Quote: Alexander Green
                      Don’t you know? Gathering his meager harvest on a piece of land and distributing his debts with his fist, Vanya sat down and thought what he would do until the next harvest.
                      That is, the peasants only thought about the promise of the Bolsheviks to make them rich. By the way, the fist is also a peasant.
    2. Varyag_0711
      Varyag_0711 13 February 2018 10: 44
      +10
      Resident of the Urals Today, 10:03
      The principles of the monarchical structure of the country were unshakable for them, and they defended them.
      Yeah, the principles were so unshakable that the whole officer corps refused the "king-priest" and the oath given to him. Note that they did not take the oath to Russia, but to the autocrat personally!
      As a result of white emigration, the country lost about 2 million educated, patriotic people, in fact, the national elite, which we now lack.
      But this is generally pearl! Particularly touched by the pearl about the "patriotic people" ... laughing fool The patriotic remained to serve Russia, and no matter what system was established in it. And just the industrialists, liberals of all stripes and other trash fled to the West, i.e. all those who, over the years of their existence, mercilessly robbed their people and country.
      All ideas to classify the opponents of the Reds as enemies of the motherland are criminal - it was under these slogans that the Russian Russians went to kill
      Another bullshit. Krasnov, Shkuro, Vlasov were also Russian, however, this did not stop them from getting under the banner of Nazi Germany and going with the Germans to destroy their own people. Exactly the same Russian traitors today are trying to destroy modern Russia, name or name yourself guess?
      1. bober1982
        bober1982 13 February 2018 10: 49
        +3
        Quote: Varyag_0711
        Vlasov

        Why this member of the CPSU (b) was included on his list, got excited.
        1. Varyag_0711
          Varyag_0711 13 February 2018 11: 02
          +9
          bober1982 Today, 10:49 ↑
          Why this member of the CPSU (b) was included on his list, got excited.
          And what, a member of the CPSU (b) is not a person? Why can a member of the CPSU (b) not be an ordinary traitor, let alone a Russian? It was that the murder of Russians by Russians was blamed, what does he have to do with a member or not?
          In the Donbass, Russians are now killing Russians, despite the fact that some of them imagined themselves to be either ancient Ukrainians or Ukrainians. And what of that? Does this somehow change the fact that some Russians are killing others? Or do you think one Russian can kill your fellow citizens, but not others?
          I don’t know how much you can consider Russian dogs, Chubais, Gozman, Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Yakovlev, Gaidar, tsipko, amnuela and other scum, exactly one thing, they are citizens of our country and it would be my holy duty to kill people like them. So why didn’t my ancestors have the right to destroy the same gozman and chubais of that time, which all the bakers here consider to be “the elite of society” and “the color of the nation”? Such a “color” simply needed to be rooted in the bud, which the Bolsheviks did with success, though not completely, they didn’t complete it all, and then they climbed out after 1991. Including you ... negative
          1. bober1982
            bober1982 13 February 2018 11: 06
            +4
            Quote: Varyag_0711
            the truth is not until the end, not all finalized

            This is because then they themselves all finalized, speaking your language.
            1. Varyag_0711
              Varyag_0711 13 February 2018 11: 19
              +9
              Judging by the presence on the site of you, olgovich, Teterin, dzimser, Russ and other traitors, the NKVD was clearly underworked. However, what my grandfathers did not finish, I will have to finish either me or my children!
              1. bober1982
                bober1982 13 February 2018 11: 26
                +4
                Dear comrade, why talk such nonsense?
              2. Dzmicer
                Dzmicer 13 February 2018 11: 48
                +5
                Judging by the presence on the site of you, olgovich, Teterin, dzimser, Russ and other traitors, the NKVD was clearly underworked. However, what my grandfathers did not finish, I will have to finish either me or my children!

                A bright communist future will come when the last surviving communist "finalizes" the penultimate, not otherwise))
                1. bober1982
                  bober1982 13 February 2018 11: 59
                  +4
                  Quote: Dzmicer
                  A bright communist future will come when the last surviving communist "finalizes" the penultimate, not otherwise))

                  It is unlikely that then the Trotskyists (unfinished) and unfinished grandfathers will replace them (modified).
              3. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 12: 03
                +5
                Oh, how do you look, I confess my love for massacres again? Please continue, you are doing more than a dozen objective historians to discredit the left idea. I promise you, when we send the last left fanatic from Russia to the DPRK, I will personally deliver the order to you. For the active struggle against communism. wink
                1. Varyag_0711
                  Varyag_0711 13 February 2018 12: 35
                  +8
                  And why do I need the order of the aunt, especially from you? I agree to the medal "Our cause is just, we will win!" Better yet, do mercy, shoot yourself, and the world will become cleaner, and we will not have to bury our hands on you ... laughing
                  P.S. Exiled, see that you yourself are not expelled, forward feet ... wassat
                  1. Lieutenant Teterin
                    Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 13: 16
                    +5
                    You are a funny person. You just have to scold and threaten someone. But by the way ... Your mental problems, because of the damage that they cause to the spread of left ideology, excite me a little less than not at all.
                    On the contrary, your activity in the comments is the best confirmation of my thesis that the leftist ideology deprives people of humanity, replaces the concept of law with lawlessness and is inherently poisonous to any society.
                2. Monarchist
                  Monarchist 13 February 2018 13: 34
                  +3
                  Lieutenant, thanks for the humor. But seriously, in my opinion: the deportation of someone, left, right and shorty or giants is arbitrariness, and arbitrariness is not gut
                  1. Dzmicer
                    Dzmicer 13 February 2018 17: 03
                    +3
                    If on the basis of law and by a court decision, then not arbitrariness, but fair retribution laughing
    3. parusnik
      parusnik 13 February 2018 12: 58
      +3
      For them, the principles of the country's monarchical system were unshakable.
      ... So why did the generals for whom the principles of the country's monarchical system are unshakable recommend that Nicholas II abdicate? .. The unshakable monarchist Kornilov arrested the imperial family, why didn’t he refuse ... The family was taken hostage? .. The unshakable monarchist Mannerheim fought as a civilian for Great Finland, and not for a single and indivisible Russia ...
    4. Monarchist
      Monarchist 13 February 2018 13: 50
      +3
      A resident of the Urals, you are absolutely right: stop sowing discord in society already. "You’ve started talking about libroids, let me continue: in fact, 2/3 of the current" people holding power "in Ukraine and in Uzbekistan, or even where, they are ALL in the past they shouted: “Glory to the CPSU, our steering party and so on.” Already a dozen years ago, somewhere on TV in I heard a wise phrase: “the democrats were not yet in power. If power is now changed, then half of today's democrats will have certificates of party experience from the pre-revolutionary era. "
      1. Alex_59
        Alex_59 13 February 2018 14: 25
        +3
        Quote: Monarchist
        You talked about libroids, let me continue: in fact, 2 / 3 of the current “power holders” both in Ukraine and in Uzbekistan or elsewhere, where they all shouted in the past: “Glory to the CPSU, our steering party and others.”

        This does not mean anything. If only because the “God-bearing people” until the 17 year were mostly baptized and sang “God save the king,” and after the 17 year, he suddenly started shooting priests, demolishing churches and doing other role-playing games. All revolutionaries are a product of the tsarist era, a product of education, customs, moral principles. And some even studied at the theological seminary, and they learned something there, which then tore off all the fuses.
        Therefore, do not entertain yourself with illusions. Bolshevism and the spirit of revolution in general became possible and found a popular response precisely because the atmosphere of tsarist Russia contributed to this. How the spirit of perestroika became possible thanks to errors in the management of the USSR. No one did more for the collapse of RI than Nicholas II, and no one did more for the collapse of the USSR than later the CPSU. And the matter is not in the party or imperial past. People tend to change their views throughout life. The same spiritual seminary, having experienced the intoxication of Bolshevism, then deviated so much from the canons that he was some damned “real” revolutionaries. And Putin is no more a communist than a Stalin monarchist.
    5. avva2012
      avva2012 13 February 2018 16: 37
      +4
      "Kutepova under Gallipoli"
      About the "Union of Russian Terrorists" did not read? About how the Gallipoli served the Nazis, too? It happens.
    6. avt
      avt 13 February 2018 17: 35
      +4
      Quote: Resident of the Urals
      However, I do not agree that White was fulfilling someone's order. The principles of the monarchical structure of the country were unshakable for them, and they defended them. So they were brought up, grew up on these principles.

      bully The evening of humor continues! Laurels of Petrosyan seem ?? WHAT, in what direction did anyone stutter about the monarchy ?? ,, Russia was not Romanov’s patrimony "-was, for a single, indivisible -was.
      Quote: Resident of the Urals
      However, I do not agree that White was fulfilling someone's order.

      There wasn’t an order, but a short leash was. Like intervention. In fact, White was the point of intervention, while they were chopping with the Reds, they quietly robbed in the rear - they took out the already paid property, Kolchak was divorced into gold, and then merged. understood - not to sit.
      Quote: Varyag_0711
      Note that they did not take the oath to Russia, but to the autocrat personally!

      Nicholas, by the way, was also the main one by faith, for a minute, the post of Patriarch Petya No. 1 was abolished and he was directly appointed the head of the church according to the Anglican model. So, everything appears to be DOUBLE betrayal in February 1917, the asad-a-ah ahfitsery-s-gal-princes accomplished something else. They also leaked the head of the Russian Orthodox Church at the station Dno into the wagon toilet. And now FROM US require some kind of repentance, or at least
      Quote: Resident of the Urals
      Enough to sow discord in society

      wassat bully
      The beast of the most fierce pity is no stranger. I am alien, so I am not a beast.
      But it is possible according to our classics
      Well Paramon! I, a sinful person, would purposely sign up with the Bolsheviks in order to ... shoot you. He would have shot him, and would instantly be discharged back.
  13. Opera
    Opera 13 February 2018 11: 02
    +11
    Indeed, there is absolutely no sense in further comments of such articles! Everything is clear what will happen after reading the first paragraph! The author with his articles seems to be running from the rally to the rally, leading the crowd! "Doooooo hired by the world bourgeoisie !!!! Dooooooo, the crowd responds! The Bolsheviks are the saviors of Russia !!! All power to the Soviets, etc." Now there is such a tendency - the Bolsheviks, except for saving Russia in general, seem to have done nothing! It was the liberals of the Tsar who overthrew, and the Bolsheviks then just killed him with the whole family a little bit, by chance completely! And now, seeing such a terrible situation, they simply decided to save Russia! Well, how right is the word of Russia without the Tsar then ?! So comrades flooded with Lenin and comrades on ships and in mail cars from the states and other Germany to save Russia! We all know, gentlemen, where you can actually find real saviors of Russia! Certainly not in Russia! In Russia, people live, work, defend it in general, so ... do nothing! But the real saviors of the motherland are more and more in Europe and do not sleep at night over the oceans - everyone thinks about Russia! He’s a Russian man - Ivan! And in order to explain to him how to live right after all, it is imperative that some representative of the nation most offended in the world must climb an armored car !!! I don’t want him, but he’s climbing everything, scrambling for many many years !!! He thinks about Russia, but what about! And Latvians with Magyars and Chinese also can’t eat straight if in Russia, something in their opinion is not in order! Russian, then he himself will not guess! And the Poles are even more conscientious than the Jews! Poles are generally traditionally ready for Russian happiness to fight even to the last Russian !!! But not at the front! Preferably in the Cheka, Cheka, OGPU, NKVD, etc. The specifics are! And that’s all you don’t think. No intervention is called! This, as with the Bolsheviks, is fraternal international help! So there you go! And about General Slashchev ... The general did not pass, as one can understand from the article from the white army to the red. From emigration, he returned to Soviet Russia and taught the red commanders the science of victory. Loved Slashchev Russia. And many Russian officers followed him, believing in the revival of the country. It all ended once again, as in all the previous ones - badly! Almost everyone was shot! When the struggle of the foreigners for Russian happiness finally shook the Russians and an ungrateful Russian uprising broke out across the whole country against different tribal boys with Mausers in leather jackets! Well, those military experts who were then shot dead already in the 30s! So then they retreated to Moscow! And who knows how it would all end if it were not for the simple Russian men who do not understand their happiness!
  14. Monarchist
    Monarchist 13 February 2018 13: 08
    +3
    Quote: avva2012
    That is, the Anglo-Saxons are not "partners" to us?
    Our partners are in the vocabulary of the GDP, so ask him.

    I think V.V. knows your value to our "well-wishers" worse than you, but the rules of decency and needs force him to choose expressions
  15. Curious
    Curious 13 February 2018 13: 17
    +4
    One moment is incomprehensible. How much can you respond to these attacks. After all, it should be clear to the children that the history itself is such a damn thing for such authors. The purpose of these articles is one - to throw away more sewage and to scatter them harder. No, each time the same figures rise from the trenches and the "battle" of "Bulkhrusts" and "Bolsheviks" continues.
    And while there will be a reaction, there will be a proposal from such "historians" - conjuncturers. And then we will be surprised and lament that the Germans rewrote the history for us. Yes, we better rewrite it ourselves than the Germans.
  16. besleney59
    besleney59 13 February 2018 13: 57
    +6
    The author consciously or not juggles the concepts. The white movement was far from sinless. But it was led by people, for the most part, the Russians and the Orthodox ... lost, for decades they were slandered and dishonored. Nobody canceled the defeated principle ... the Bolshevik movement (red draft) was led by people who called themselves internationalists ... so that no one doubts this, in 1918 the law on "anti-Semitism" was adopted, providing for the death penalty ... they won ... to the author, I would strongly advise you to look for a leader in the works of the red project (the work of Trotsky, Lenin .. Zinoviev, Uritsky, Bukharin, etc., etc.) is something positive about the Russian people, their state and national identity ... but in general I would like to give an excerpt from a 1995 article of Russian Orthodox history: The desire to impose futile disputes on the Russian public. To spark imaginary contradictions among the patriotic movement, especially in relation to the Soviet period of Russian history. Know the Russian people: those who consider the 1917 revolution a disaster, and those who want to see in our recent history Oria especially the bright side, you do not have to argue! There is no doubt that the last decades of Russian life are a great heroic time! You just need to remember that greatness is not that we shot at each other on the fronts of the civil war, not that we believed the crafty leaders, ravaged the peasantry by collectivization, brought the Cossacks to the root, allowed an orgy of mass anti-Russian terror, rampant sacrilege, godlessness, godlessness! No! Heroism is that in spite of all this, at the cost of incredible sacrifices and terrifying deprivations, we kept in our souls a spark of faith, love for the Motherland, that we twice (after the revolution and World War II) rebuilt a country turned into ashes, despite everything created a powerful power, economy, invincible army ....
  17. Lexus
    Lexus 13 February 2018 15: 08
    +4
    And what is a “white project”?
    Lovers of balls, champagne ... the crunch of French rolls.
    Invaders were invited to fight their own people.
    I don’t want to draw parallels, but they themselves beg.
    Thanks to our ancestors that this evil spirits were thrown out, thanks to many TRUE RUSSIAN officers and generals who stayed with their homeland in difficult times and helped ordinary people in the struggle for a free future! hi
  18. RUSS
    RUSS 13 February 2018 16: 40
    +5
    Again Samsonov and again with a pseudo-historical article in the History section request
    It is not clear why and for what purpose VO posts his articles? On the one hand, it attracts more commentators, but on the other hand, VO with such articles is slipping into the yellow press ..... It is depressing that the youth here reading his rubbish can take them for historical facts .....
    One thing that reassures me personally is that this comrade is not allowed to draw up a textbook and generally to decent historical societies and communities.
    So, that even here "darling will take" by typing his articles.
    Write Shura, write!
  19. parusnik
    parusnik 13 February 2018 16: 55
    +3
    Gopnik,
    You do not leave the topic, we are talking about the February Revolution about its participants .. In February 1917, the Semenovsky regiment did not defend the monarchy .. What you wrote about in 1919 was not a whole regiment, but a battalion .. All the same, explain who was white during the February Revolution, you already wrote about the Reds, soldiers, workers ... Let us return to the aforementioned Kirill Vladimirovich, he is with the Guards crew, who is red or white ... during the indicated period ..
    1. Gopnik
      Gopnik 13 February 2018 18: 03
      +2
      During the February Maidan there were no more white and red, because it is a division of a later time, a time of civil war. Then, both the Reds and the Whites were participants in the February Revolution. Also in the composition of those and those were persons who did not participate in the February events. Moreover, I suspect there were more white people who did not accept February. All clear?
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 13 February 2018 18: 38
        +4
        Not long ago, you argued the opposite ...
        Moreover, I suspect there were more white people who did not accept February.
        ... And who is this, enlighten ... if you suspect, your suspicions are based on something ... Share, please ...
        1. Gopnik
          Gopnik 13 February 2018 20: 47
          +1
          Quote: parusnik
          Not long ago, you argued the opposite ...


          Where? And what exactly is the “opposite”?

          Quote: parusnik
          ... And who is this, enlighten ...


          For example, N.I. Ivanov, Drozdovsky, Kutepov
          1. parusnik
            parusnik 13 February 2018 21: 38
            +2
            The fact that the Reds participated in the February revolution does not mean that only they participated in it.
            .
            ..
            During the February Maidan there were no more white and red
            ...
            For example, N.I. Ivanov, Drozdovsky, Kutepov
            ... Yes, the latter organized resistance, the first tried, they didn’t give .. And Drozdovsky, he was at the front .. But as a result, all three took the oath to the Provisional Government .. And none of the three made attempts to free the imperial family ..
            1. Gopnik
              Gopnik 13 February 2018 22: 36
              +1
              Well, yes, in February there were no more reds and whites, but the future reds participated in it. It's like that.
              Of course they did. As the emperor called for.
  20. Looking for
    Looking for 13 February 2018 17: 17
    +1
    Quote: Albatroz
    The RSFSR was also not alone, as it were: Turkey, the Bavarian and Hungarian Soviet republics, the Finnish social republic.

    And what does Turkey have to do with ????
  21. Okolotochny
    Okolotochny 13 February 2018 17: 24
    +9
    Dart2027,
    Let's without presenting each other? He simply asked the supporters of the white movement. I am not saying anything. Each supporter here has its own truth, each sprinkles links "to the only true sources." We argue in order to understand and prevent such events from happening on, or to smear each other with feces?
    1. Dart2027
      Dart2027 13 February 2018 19: 25
      0
      Quote: Okolotochny
      Each supporter here has its own truth, each sprinkles links "to the only true sources."

      In almost any GV, weaker parties resort to the help of foreigners. This is a historical axiom about which Machiavelli wrote. Now, by the way, the same thing. It is another matter that declaring even Lenin, even Kolchak, even Hitler as a hired agent or spy is wrong. Cooperating with intelligence agencies and being their agent is not the same thing.
  22. Okolotochny
    Okolotochny 13 February 2018 17: 28
    +8
    Lieutenant Teterin,
    Olgovich, Poruchik, were the tsarist generals and admirals so stupid that they did not understand the true intentions of the "allies"? After all, did everyone graduate from the academy? Didn’t they understand what the Allies would want in exchange for help? Alright when gold and future concessions. After all, the TERRITORIES also wanted, or not? I’m talking about this.
    1. Lieutenant Teterin
      Lieutenant Teterin 13 February 2018 18: 15
      +2
      In this situation, the “Allies” could be “sent” to hell away after the victory. At that time, the fate of the Fatherland was more important, but after the victory over the Bolsheviks, anything could be done. Although we refer to the decision of the newly convened Constituent Assembly and say that "they say that the people do not approve of our treaties, we can do nothing." And the "allies" would be wiped out. Because to fight with huge Russia after 4 years of positional massacre of WWII, their society simply could not stand it.
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 13 February 2018 18: 56
        +5
        [b
        ] And the "allies" would be wiped out.
        [/b.BIZ... Are you sure of this? ... And who would give the money to restore Russia, patriotic Russian capital? ... And why fight ... A simple example of Soviet Russia was nearly strangled in economic sanctions. . But the Rapallo Treaty of 1922 broke through the blockade .. But do not forget why RI, Austria-Hungary, Turkey were the weakest links in the chain of imperialist states, they did not live at the expense of colonies like England, France
        1. Gopnik
          Gopnik 13 February 2018 20: 51
          +1
          Quote: parusnik
          And who would give the money to restore Russia


          And who gave the USSR?
          1. parusnik
            parusnik 13 February 2018 21: 45
            +5
            And who gave the USSR?
            .. somehow? Don’t you know, the Germans ... They gave Lenin money for the revolution, well, there’s not much left .. And yet, at the expense of the loot, the Bolsheviks, this ISIS plague of the 20th century, as you so deigned to say, robbed Russia and let's build factories, create institutions, etc., specifically to destroy the Russian people ....
            1. Gopnik
              Gopnik 13 February 2018 22: 38
              +1
              Well, from internal resources. And the whites would not be in isolation, and the same Germans would really give reparations. In general, no problem, even Poland and Finland got out normally.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 14 February 2018 11: 50
                +1
                Quote: Gopnik
                Well, from internal resources.

                Squeezed EVERYTHING, without a trace. They plunged the people into the wildest POVERTY: until the 1950s they lived WORSE worse than in 1913. Since 1964, they DIED.
                A terrible price for the ambition of a handful of experimenters.
                1. Alexander Greene
                  Alexander Greene 14 February 2018 21: 29
                  +3
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Squeezed EVERYTHING, without a trace. They plunged the people into the wildest POVERTY: until the 1950s they lived WORSE worse than in 1913. Since 1964, they DIED.
                  A terrible price for the ambition of a handful of experimenters.

                  Your ancestors plunged the country into devastation and poverty, unleashed a civil war, could not accept that they could no longer sit on the neck of the people and parasitize.
                  A bunch of the bourgeoisie, relying on the world bourgeoisie, on peace imperialism tried to strangle the world's first workers' state. None of them bothered that the USSR was successfully building a new community, a new life, that the whole working people had a future.
                  1. Alexander Greene
                    Alexander Greene 14 February 2018 21: 50
                    +3
                    I apologize for the errors in the previous comment, the computer crashed several times and could not be fixed.
                    I repeat without errors.
                    A bunch of the bourgeoisie, relying on the world bourgeoisie, on world imperialism, tried to strangle the world's first workers' state. None of them was disturbed by the fact that a new society, a new life was being successfully built in the USSR, that the whole working people had a future and confidence in the future.
                  2. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 15 February 2018 11: 45
                    +1
                    Quote: Alexander Green
                    Your ancestors plunged the country into devastation and poverty, unleashed a civil war, could not accept that they could no longer sit on the neck of the people and parasitize.

                    BEFORE you, there was NOT a civil war. Most of the enemies of the people (millions), also only with you.
                    In poverty, wild until the 1950s, with carnivore and cannibalism, also lived with you.
                    This was nowhere in the world, only with YOU!
                    1. Alexander Greene
                      Alexander Greene 15 February 2018 23: 25
                      +2
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      This was nowhere in the world, only with YOU!

                      Learn world history, the civil war was even in America, beloved by the liberalists.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 16 February 2018 09: 51
                        0
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        Learn world history, the civil war was even in America, beloved by the liberalists.

                        Carnivore and cannibalism there was only you! He was nowhere else!
                        Chop it on the nose!
                      2. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 16 February 2018 20: 49
                        +2
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Only YOU had corpse eating and cannibalism! He was nowhere else!

                        Perhaps they were, only in other countries there were no such cruel enemies as those of the Soviet regime, and there were no individuals like you who inflate and relish it.
    2. Gopnik
      Gopnik 13 February 2018 20: 51
      +1
      Quote: Okolotochny
      After all, the TERRITORIES also wanted, or not? I’m talking about this.


      What, dei-no? What are the specific territories?
      1. Okolotochny
        Okolotochny 13 February 2018 20: 55
        +8
        And you look at the presence of foreign troops in the Republic of Ingushetia during the Civil War? This is actually a map of the division of spheres of influence and territories.
        1. Gopnik
          Gopnik 13 February 2018 22: 39
          +1
          No, this is not a partition map; these territories were not required from Russia.
          1. Okolotochny
            Okolotochny 14 February 2018 12: 38
            +9
            On the fence, sometimes there are words written. Call it what you like, but foreign military contingents were present on the territory of the Russian Federation, even participated in hostilities, and in executions as well. So the reason for their presence in Russia? Help the white movement? But you say that the help was scanty? What are the troops for? To control financial flows, what would not be a cut?
    3. Olgovich
      Olgovich 14 February 2018 11: 44
      +2
      Quote: Okolotochny
      Olgovich, Poruchik, were the tsarist generals and admirals so stupid that they did not understand the true intentions of the "allies"?

      The true intentions of the allies are to respect the interests of their countries and their peoples.
      It `s naturally. And in the end, the whites with their One and Indivisible proved to be less profitable for them than the Bolsheviks, who agree on EVERYTHING, if only to maintain power even in a piece of Russia
      Quote: Okolotochny
      Didn’t they understand what the Allies would want in exchange for help?

      And WHAT did they want? money and goods, preferences in the economy. It `s naturally. .
      Quote: Okolotochny
      . After all, the TERRITORIES also wanted, or not? I’m talking about this.

      No, of course: it was the Entente who expelled the German occupiers from Russia, where they were sent by the Bolsheviks. But you could not do it! Then the SAMI allies left Russia shortly after the end of the WWII.
      It was the USA that FORCED Japan to get out of the Far East — they might not have done so.
      these are facts and not the fabrications of the Bolsheviks.
  23. Captain Angry
    Captain Angry 13 February 2018 18: 16
    +5
    It can be added that just at the declining years of A.I. At the end of World War II, Denikin turned to the U.S. government with a call for a crusade against the USSR and the early start of a war against the Union, apparently for this he was reburied in the cemetery of the Donskoy Monastery in Russia. You can’t throw anything out of your life.
    1. RUSS
      RUSS 13 February 2018 19: 20
      +3
      Quote: Captain Evil
      It can be added that just at the declining years of A.I. At the end of World War II, Denikin turned to the U.S. government with a call for a crusade against the USSR and the early start of a war against the Union, apparently for this he was reburied in the cemetery of the Donskoy Monastery in Russia. You can’t throw anything out of your life.

      Nonsense.
    2. Dart2027
      Dart2027 13 February 2018 19: 36
      +3
      Quote: Captain Evil
      appealed to the US government with the appeal of the crusade against the USSR and the early start of the war against the Union

      Did he apply? In the memorandum “Russian Question”, he called not to mix people and communism in case of war, but did not call to attack the USSR.
  24. RUSS
    RUSS 13 February 2018 19: 30
    +3
    Samsonov attached a fake photo to the article laughing

    “The first film adaptation of the Kappel’s attack was shown in the Soviet feature film“ Chapaev. ”Impressive shots from the film led to believe that such an attack was in fact. However, historians who studied the military way of parts of Vladimir Oskarovich Kappel do not find evidence of this. Parts of Chapaev and Kappel never met each other in battle - the enemy of the Kappel Volga Corps was not the 1918th Chapaev’s division in June 25, but the 24th Infantry Division [8]. Lieutenant Colonel of the General Staff V. O. Kappel could use this technique earlier, on the Volga, during the command of the units of the People’s Army.Later, when the Red Army took up a regular basis, such a technique probably could not be effective, and therefore it is doubtful that it could be used in battle. the uniform uniforms in which the white men dressed in the Chapaev movie were dressed, the Kappelevites had only to dream - they often dressed in what they had to, it was very bad with supplies. "

    Samsonov, at least you do not insert cartoon photos, but real ones, and indeed the article is your cartoon and fiction as well as the “Kappel attack” so that’s all right!
  25. Lenivets2
    Lenivets2 13 February 2018 20: 51
    +5
    How much can you provoke people and arrange an endless srach?
    What are you trying to achieve? fool
  26. parusnik
    parusnik 13 February 2018 21: 47
    +1
    Okolotochny,
    Yes ... as then ..
  27. Altona
    Altona 13 February 2018 22: 32
    +2
    Quote: Gopnik
    I decided a long time ago, I’m Russia

    ------------------------------
    What bourgeois Russia is now we see clearly. The Olympics without a flag and anthem, squeezed diplomatic property by a larger predator, spitting on Russia's merits in everything.
  28. Altona
    Altona 13 February 2018 22: 36
    +2
    Quote: Lenivets2
    How much can you provoke people and arrange an endless srach?

    ----------------------------
    Samsonov, in principle, wrote everything correctly, but there are a lot of people on the forum trying to conquer the Civil War. I am not against Lieutenant as a re-enactor, but his views personally seem wild to me, because the desire to have accelerants and epaulettes completely kills critical thinking.
    By the way, it’s funny to read comments that are replete with quotes from famous memoirists. A person who writes memoirs does not always give correct assessments of what is happening and is subjective to the extent of his lack of education in other areas except the military.
  29. mar4047083
    mar4047083 13 February 2018 23: 40
    +2
    Ostap suffered.
    1. Curious
      Curious 14 February 2018 00: 08
      +3
      Rather - it blew!
      1. mar4047083
        mar4047083 14 February 2018 00: 40
        +2
        V.N. Do not distort the classics. In our enlightened age, it is not humane to evaluate the "works" of individual authors. The author tried, strained, and you carried. Well pick up an epithet softer. Everyone suspects that the author has chronic diarrhea, but no one talks about it publicly.
  30. Dimmih
    Dimmih 14 February 2018 04: 42
    +6
    And the Reds were therefore pro-Russian statists? Yes, Poland, the Baltic states and Finland fell off, this is of course a state approach, truly. The author is just gushing some kind of slop. There was a civil war, there are no heroes in it and cannot be. Well, what heroes when the citizens of one state exterminate each other with mutual frenzy? This topic is still bleeding, so it would be wise to write on this topic to historians, and not to propagandists such as Samsonov. In order to maintain civil peace in the country, and not to split the country, some are for the whites, and some are for the red.
  31. lindir.elve
    lindir.elve 14 February 2018 07: 46
    +2
    "Kolchak was a revolutionary revolutionary"Polynkov, is that you? And what dill do you smoke? !!
  32. Laurus
    Laurus 14 February 2018 21: 30
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    Quote: Okolotochny
    Do foreigners want for their help? I'm not talking about the amount of help, but about the fact

    It is possible about the size: the Bolsheviks forever gave the German invaders a third of the country. For maintaining his power.
    Today’s western border of Russia practically coincides with the Brest shame!

    Oh, wey, what a big word - FOREVER. But nothing that this "forever" ended very, very soon?
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 15 February 2018 11: 50
      +1
      Quote: Laurel
      Oh, wey, what a big word - FOREVER. But nothing that this "forever" ended very, very soon?

      But was there nothing in the agreement "very soon"? Gave ALWAYS.
      ANTANTA canceled Brest and brought the Germans out, but might not have canceled it. Iliche is nothing to do with!
  33. Hantengri
    Hantengri 14 February 2018 22: 05
    +1
    Gopnik,
    Quote: Gopnik
    Including and Honduras, yes, which will inevitably affect the world socialist revolution, according to fool dreamers

    Yes of course! You are absolutely right! Lenin, March 12, 1918, in the work “The main task of our days”, I only thought about Honduras! At that time, he simply had no other worries !!! laughing
  34. M. Michelson
    M. Michelson 15 February 2018 07: 13
    0
    All this is a simplification.
    1. Specifically, the "black baron" really was a monarchist (a rare phenomenon in the White movement). So the song is right here.
    2. The fate of the white resistance was in fact much more tragic than it is customary to imagine. Because in October 17th, a gang of villains, obsessed with the world revolution and nothing more, really came to power, and those who opposed them were generally right. But the year 1919 turned everything upside down: the Communists, having (thanks to the wise Leninist policy) without allies, nevertheless, did not surrender, but led a mass uprising against the old order, and the white "saviors of the Fatherland" were overgrown with sponsors, like shells, and new and new debt on loans. So the Communists unexpectedly ended the war with nationalists, and their opponents, patriots, with corrupt skins.
    3. The grimace of history was that the Russian Empire was neither "Russian" nor Russian, but more anti-Russian (hello to Stalin with his epaulettes), which imposed European orders alien to the population. Therefore, the Civil War was essentially a national liberation uprising under the guise of a class.
  35. wersa
    wersa 18 February 2018 22: 40
    0
    Quote: Samsonov Alexander
    Anti-Russian and anti-state white project

    Actually, “whites” is the Bolshevik name of Russians and Cossacks. Because it was the not-so-large Russian population of the former Russian Empire that fought with the “reds” in this army. And also the bulk of the Cossacks who joined them.
    Therefore, to call the whites “an anti-Russian and anti-state project” is ... there are not even words.
  36. ser -siz
    ser -siz 28 February 2018 16: 35
    0
    Tell me how to ask a question on the site?