"The myth of the" Mongols from Mongolia in Russia "is the most ambitious and monstrous provocation of the Vatican and the West as a whole against Russia"

Obviously, the invasion of Eastern Europe and Russia in 1236-1240. from the East was. This is indicated by stormed and destroyed cities and fortresses, traces of battles and ravaged settlements. However, the question is who are the Mongol Tatars? Mongolian Mongoloids from Mongolia or someone else? Is it not a fake "Mongols from Mongolia", launched into life by a spy of Pope Plano Carpini and other agents of the Vatican (the worst enemy of Russia)? Obviously, the West has been playing its own game to destroy Russian civilization not from the 20th century, not even from the 18th-19th centuries, but since its inception, and the Vatican was the first “command center” of the western project.

One of the main methods of the enemy is information warfare, the distortion and rewriting of genuine stories, the creation of so-called. black myths: about the original "savagery of the Slavs"; that the Russian statehood was created by Viking-Swedes; that written, culture, and the “light of the true faith” to the Russians were brought by the advanced Romani Greeks; about the "traitor" Alexander Nevsky; about the "bloody tyrants" Ivan the Terrible and Stalin; about the “Russian invaders” who captured one-sixth of the land and turned it into a “prison of nations”; that the Russians took over all the achievements of civilization from the West and the East; about drunkenness and laziness of Russians, etc. In particular, the myth of "Ukraine-Russia" is now launched in Ukraine-Little Russia, that is, Russians have cut off the story for several more centuries. It is clear that in the West with great pleasure will support this black myth.

One of these myths is the myth of the “Mongol-Tatar” invasion and yoke. According to the historian Yu. D. Petukhov: “The myth about the“ Mongols from Mongolia in Russia ”is the most grandiose and monstrous provocation of the Vatican and the West as a whole against Russia”. A careful examination of the issue brings up too many inconsistencies and facts that contradict the “classical” version:

- How could the semi-wild shepherds (albeit belligerent) crush such developed powers as China, Khorezm, the Tangut kingdom, march through the mountains of the Caucasus, where warlike tribes lived, crush and subdue dozens of tribes, crush the rich Volga Bulgaria and Russian principalities and almost capture Europe, easily dispersed troops of the Hungarians, Poles and German knights. And this is after heavy battles with the Rus, Alans, Polovtsy and Bulgars!

Indeed, from history it is known that any conqueror relies on a developed economy. Rome was the foremost power of Europe. Alexander of Macedon relied on the economy created by his father Philip. With all his talents, he could not have done even half of his accomplishments if his father had not created a powerful mining and metallurgical industry, strengthened finances, and carried out a number of military reforms. Napoleon and Hitler had under him the most powerful and developed states of Europe (France and Germany) and practically the resources of the whole of Europe, the most developed, in terms of technology, parts of the world. Before the creation of the British Empire, over which the sun did not set, there was an industrial revolution that turned England into the “workshop of the world”. The current "world gendarme" - the United States has the most powerful economy of the planet, and the ability to buy "brains" and resources for paper.

And the real Mongols at that time were poor nomads, primitive cattlemen and hunters who were at a low level of primitive communal development, who did not even create a pre-state education, not to mention a Eurasian empire. They simply could not crush, and even relatively easily, the advanced powers of the time. This required a production, military base, cultural traditions, which are created by many generations of people.

The Mongols did not have the necessary demographic potential in order to create a large and strong army. Even now, Mongolia is a deserted, sparsely populated country with minimal military potential. It is obvious that almost a thousand years ago she was even poorer, with small kinds of shepherds and hunters. There were tens of thousands of well-armed and organized fighters who went to conquer almost the whole continent, there was simply no place to go.

Thus, the wild nomads, hunters had no opportunity in the blink of an eye to become the invincible people-army, which in the shortest (by historical standards) terms crushed the advanced powers of Asia and Europe. There was no cultural, economic, military or demographic potential. There was no military revolution (like the invention of the phalanx, the legion, the domestication of the horse, the creation of iron weapons etc.), which could give an advantage to any nationality.

- The myth of the “invincible” Mongol warriors was created. They were described by the wonderful historical novels of V. Yana. However, from the point of view of historical reality, this is a myth. There were no "invincible" Mongol warriors. Armament "Mongols" did not differ from the Russian soldiers. Numerous archers and archery tradition is an ancient Scythian and Russian tradition. A clear and uniform organization: the cavalry forces were divided into dozens, hundreds, thousands, and tumens of darkness (10-thousand corps), headed by foremen, centurions, thousandths and temniki. This is not the invention of the "Mongols". For thousands of years Russian troops shared in a similar way, according to the decimal system. Iron discipline was not only the "Mongols", but also in the Russian squads. The "Mongols" preferred to conduct offensive actions - the Russian squads also acted. The siege technique was known to the Russes long before the "Mongol" invasion. The same Russian prince Svyatoslav stormed the enemy strongholds with the help of rams, stencils and throwing machines, assault ladders, etc. "The Mongols" could make long hikes without carts, without replenishing food supplies. However, the soldiers of Svyatoslav, and later later Cossacks, also acted. It is reported that the "Mongols" even "women are warlike, as they are: they shoot arrows, ride horses astride, like men." We recall the Amazons of the Scythian times, Russian Polarians, that is, this is one tradition.

Wild Mongol nomads did not have such a military tradition. Such a tradition is created by more than one generation, for example, the legions of Rome, the phalanx of Sparta and Alexander the Great, the invincible ratios of Svyatoslav, the Wehrmacht’s iron tread. Only the descendants of Great Scythia, the Russes of the Scythian-Siberian world, had such a tradition. And so all the countless works of art, novels and films about the "Mongol warriors" who destroy everything in their path is a myth.

“We are told about the Tatar-Mongols, but it is known from the course of biology that the genes of the Negroids and Mongoloids are dominant. And if hundreds of thousands of Mongol warriors, destroying the troops of the opponents, passed through Russia and the floor of Europe, then the current population of Russia and Eastern, Central Europe would be very much like modern Mongols. Let me remind you that during all the wars, women were prey and subjected to mass violence. Mongoloid features include short stature, dark eyes, hard black hair, dark, yellowish skin, cheekiness, epicanthus, flat face, poorly developed tertiary hair (beard and mustache practically do not grow, or very thin), etc. Described is suitable on modern Russians, Poles, Hungarians, Germans?

Archaeologists, for example, see S. Alekseev's data, digging up the places of fierce battles, find mainly the backbones of Caucasians, representatives of the white race. There were no Mongols in Russia. Archaeologists find traces of battles, pogroms, burned and destroyed settlements, but there was no “anthropological Mongoloid material” in Russia. The war really was, but it was not a war between the Rus and the Mongols. In the burial grounds of the time of the Golden Horde, only Europoids found the bones. This is confirmed by written sources, as well as drawings: they describe the warriors- "Mongols" of the European appearance - blond hair, bright eyes (gray, blue), tall growth. Sources draw Genghis Khan high, with a luxurious long beard, with “lynx”, green-yellow eyes. The Persian historian of the time of the Golden Horde Rashid hell Dean writes that in the genus of Genghis Khan, children "were born mostly with gray eyes and fair-haired." In the miniatures of the Russian chronicles there are no racial differences, and there are no serious differences in clothes and armaments, between the “Mongols” and the Russians. In Western Europe, on engravings "Mongols" are depicted in the image of Russian boyars, archers and Cossacks.

In reality, the Mongoloid element in Russia in small quantities will appear only in the XVI-XVII centuries, together with the service Tatars, who, being Caucasians themselves, will begin to acquire Mongoloid signs on the eastern borders of Russia.

There was no invasion and "Tatars". It is known that before the beginning of the XII century, the Mughal mighty and Tatars-Turks were hostile. “A Secret Story” reports that the warriors of Temujin (Genghis Khan) hated the Tatars. For a while Temuchin subjugated the Tatars, but then they were completely destroyed. Already much later, the Tatars began to call the Bulgars - residents of the state of Volga Bulgaria on the Middle Volga, which became part of the Golden Horde. In addition, there is a version that the Tatar, translated from Old Russian (Sanskrit), is only a distorted "Tataroh" - "the royal horseman."

In this way, The "Mongols" who came to Russia were typical representatives of the Caucasian race, the white race. There were no anthropological differences between the Polovtsy, the "Mongols" and the Russians of Kiev and Ryazan.

- The notorious "Mongols" have not left a single (!) Mongolian word in Russia. The familiar words from the historical novels “Horde” are the Russian word Rod, Rada (the Golden Horde is the Golden Clan, i.e., royal, of divine origin); “Tumen” - the Russian word “darkness” (10000); “Khan-Kagan”, the Russian word “Kohang, Kohany” - beloved, respected, this word has been known since the times of Old Russia, as it was sometimes called the first Rurikovich (for example, Kagan Vladimir). The word “Byty” is “father”, the respectful name of the leader, as they still call the president in Belarus.

- During the Golden Horde, the population of this empire - mainly the Polovtsy and the descendants of the "Mongols", was no less than the population of the Russian principalities. Where did the Horde population go? After all, the former lands of the Horde became part of the Russian state, that is, at least half of the population of Russia should have Turkic, Mongolian roots. However, there are no traces of the Turkic and Mongoloid population of the Horde! The Kazan Tatars are considered descendants of the Volgar Bulgars, that is, the Caucasians. Crimean Tatars are not related to the core population of the Horde, it is a mixture of the indigenous population of the Crimea and many external migration waves. It is obvious that the Polovtsy and the Horde simply disappeared into the relative Russian people, leaving no anthropological or linguistic traces. As before, the Pechenegs dissolved, etc. All became Russians. If it were the "Mongols", then the traces would remain. Can not such a huge array of people simply dissolve.

- The term "Tatar-Mongols" is not in the Russian chronicles. The Mongolian ethnic groups themselves called themselves “Khalkha”, “Oirats”. This is a completely artificial term that P.Naumov introduced in 1823 in the article “On the attitude of the Russian princes to the Mongolian and Tatar khans from 1224 to 1480.” The word "Mongols", in the original version of "Mogul" comes from the Korneslova "could, we can" - "a husband, a powerful, powerful, powerful." From this root comes the word "Mughal" - "the great, powerful." It was a nickname, not the self-name of the people.

From school history we can recall the phrase "Great Moguls". This is a tautology. Mogul and so in translation - great, he became Mongol later, as knowledge was lost and distorted. It is obvious that the Mongols could not be called "great, powerful" then, and at the present time. Anthropological Mongoloids "Khalkhu" never reached Russia and Europe. Mongols in Mongolia only from Europeans in the 20th century found out that they captured half of the world and they had a “shaker of the Universe” - “Genghis Khan” and from that time they started a business on this name.

- Alexander Yaroslavovich Nevsky very much acted in coordination with the “Horde-Rod” Baty. Batu struck in Central and Southern Europe, almost repeated the campaign "scourge of God" Atilla. Alexander also smashed Western troops on the northern flank - defeated the Swedish and German knights. The West received a strong blow, and temporarily refused to attack the East. Russia got the time to restore unity.

Not surprisingly, many, including Russian (!), Historians accused Alexander of “treason”, that he betrayed Russia under the yoke of “yoke” and made an alliance with the “trashy”, instead of taking the crown from Pope and make an alliance with the West in the fight against the Horde.

However, taking into account the new data about the Horde, the actions of Alexander become completely logical. Alexander Nevsky went to the alliance with the Golden Horde is not out of desperation - of the two evils, choosing the lesser. Becoming the adopted son of Khan Batu and the spiritual brother of Sartak, Nevsky strengthened the Russian state, which included the Horde and the unity of the Rus superethnos. The Russians and the Horde were two active cores of a single ethno-linguistic community, the heirs of the ancient Scythia and the Aryan country, the descendants of the Hyperboreans. Alexander closed the “window to Europe” for several centuries, stopping the cultural (informational) and military-political expansion of the West. Having given Russia the opportunity to grow stronger and preserve the originality.

- There are many other inconsistencies that destroy the overall picture of the "Mongol-Tatar" invasion. Thus, in the Legend and the Mamayev Massacre, a Moscow literary monument of the 15th century, the gods are mentioned that were worshiped by the so-called "Tatars": Perun, Salavat, Recly, Horse, Mohammed. That is, even at the end of the XIV century, Islam was not the dominant religion in the Horde. Ordinary "Tatar-Mongols" continued to honor Perun and Khors (Russian deities).

The “Mongolian” names Bayan (conqueror of Southern China), Temujin-Chemuchin, Batu, Berke, Sebedi, Ugedei-Guess, Mamai, Chagatai-Chagadai, Borodai-Borondai, etc. are not “Mongolian” names. They clearly belong to the Scythian tradition. For a long time, Russia on the European maps was designated as the Great Tartary, the Russian people were called the White Tatars. In the eyes of Western Europe, the concepts of "Russia" and "Tartary" ("Tataria") have long been united. At the same time, the territory of Tartary coincides with the territory of the Russian Empire and the USSR - from the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea to the Pacific Ocean and to the borders of China and India.

To be continued ...

Comments

[ovod84]

The reverse is nonsense. The Mongols had no traditions, etc. let's take the Huns who also traveled the same path and came to Europe. I’ll explain about the Caucasus mountains in the 1230s by cunning Derbent, sending water with the help of traitors and then moving across the plain Dagestan further into the steppe. In 1242 the Mongols tried to go into the mountains but were defeated, they could not control the mountainous areas, although the rulers were formally recognized the power of the Mongols. Recently, Ron TV said that the atilla was blond and the Huns were also bright. Better do something useful than write nonsense

[Nicholas C.]

History is an object such that the more you know, the more questions. Here, for example, Polovtsian:

Why, if the Polovtsy-Türks, the Mongol-Türks wanted to destroy them so much that, it turns out, they did destroy them - now there are no Turks in the southern Russian steppe. The Polovtsian capital Sharukan was already near Kharkov. And why didn’t they take their place?

The Russian annals cover the Polovtsy how much in vain, words and then expensive paper without sparing. Filthy - not a curse - it's just unchristian. But in the annals even “hellish sotons” are present. (I think I rule one! Letter). However, Nestor likewise winged and Russian tribes, except the glades who converted to Christianity, while they remained pagans. All these filthy (Russian and Polovtsian) in the annals - their filthy.

That's what. When the Russian prince took his wife from other lands, she was necessarily forced to accept Orthodoxy. And when they took Polovanka as their wives, they did not force Orthodoxy to accept. Why? At least chronicles about the adoption of Orthodoxy are not written by the Polovtsians. People build versions, they say, Polovtsy, were Christians, only Nestorians, and the church anathematized them, so the Polovtsy are filthy. But the Catholic and others at marriage to the Orthodox were forced to be baptized in the Orthodox rite. Why is Polovanka not?

[Nicholas C.]

Quote: Author Samsonov Alexander

How could the semi-wild shepherds (albeit warlike) crush such developed powers

On the example of Central Asia. The indigenous population there is Iranian. Persia is just an ancient developed power with a great culture, incl. literature. But the SA says, except for Tajikistan, in the language of the winners - the Türks. Turkic language from the same Altai language family as Mongolian, Manchu. And according to the genotype, the Central Asians now are a cross between Mongoloids and Iranians (where more, where less). It turns out, crushed. And there is evidence of conquest.

PS. I can explain why such a conquest was possible. Many more letters are needed.

[Cap.Morgan]

Quote: Nikolay S.

Quote: Author Samsonov Alexander

How could the semi-wild shepherds (albeit warlike) crush such developed powers

On the example of Central Asia. The indigenous population there is Iranian. Persia is just an ancient developed power with a great culture, incl. literature. But the SA says, except for Tajikistan, in the language of the winners - the Türks. Turkic language from the same Altai language family as Mongolian, Manchu. And according to the genotype, the Central Asians now are a cross between Mongoloids and Iranians (where more, where less). It turns out, crushed. And there is evidence of conquest.

PS. I can explain why such a conquest was possible. Many more letters are needed.

I read somewhere that in the 18-19 centuries in the Ottoman Empire a variant of the Old Persian language was adopted. So who was the winner? This does not mean anything.
In Russia, for a century all the nobility spoke in French. For example.

[Sweles]

Quote: Cap.Morgan

In Russia, for a century all the nobility spoke in French. For example.

no, it's not right, in the 18th century they mostly spoke German at the Russian court, because in fact all the nobles were Germans, and only at the end of the 18th century for some reason they switched to French and spoke before World War II, then they refused from French too, switched to Russian , that was such a "Russian" know ...

[saigon]

I really wanted to learn about the German capital in the 18th century. A powerful discovery about the origin of the nobility of the Russian Empire. Probably the Sheremetyevs, Bestuzhevs, Kutuzovs and other surnames come from non-Germans? What (German) language was spoken in Russia in the 18th century? Saxon, Gessen, Barsky? And this is so offhand the largest dialects whose carriers simply did not understand each other. Do you know that only under Napoleon, in principle, the French language became common for France? Do you know that the area around the city of Paris was called Ile de France (possibly spelling confused) translation of the French island. And in the same France, with kings, there were many local dialects of Provence, Breton, Gascon, limousine and distance according to the list. And again, speakers of dialects or languages ​​(as you wish) did not understand each other. Such are the comments about the German language of the Russian nobility.

[AVATA-ta-R-in]

As for the Ile-de-France, il- from the Tatar-Turkic-country- i.e. * country of francs * and how such an option - franks are turks?

[Mahmut]

By the way about the Polovtsians. Why they were called that, but because their hair was the color of the chaff. That is, the color of rye straw. They could be Germans or Irish, but not Turks. When the busurmane was taken to the "full". Full - so the Poles call Poland. Well, the Khazar coat of arms on the flag of Ukraine clearly indicates not its eastern origin. And Mamai came to Russia not from the east but from the Crimea. It is a pity that Lomonosov's archive was destroyed. Modern historians, although they find many non-junctions in the official history, are not able to create their own, fully alternative history themselves. And this is facilitated not only by meager historical facts, but also by purely departmental self-interest - if we recall the persecution of "freelance historians" Fomenko and Nosovsky.

[Nagaibak]

Sveles "no, that's not correct, in the 18th century they mostly spoke German at the Russian court, because in fact all the nobles were Germans."
As always, you are talking nonsense, but nothing is the norm for you. There are all kinds of Velvet books; it is clearly indicated which of the nobles are from. These are well-known things. Although if we take into account that the Romanovs replaced all the documents)))))).
But seriously, the Germans certainly were. But, even more nobles from the Polish and Lithuanian gentry, the Horde, etc. And with the accession of Georgia there is generally no way to spit on the prince.
“Before being included in the nobility lists, the gentlemen of Russia belonged to the class of boyars. It is believed that at least a third of boyar families came from immigrants from Poland and Lithuania. However, indications of the European origin of one or another noble family sometimes border on falsification. here are the legends about the departure of the ancestor from the countries of the East more often correspond to reality. ”As N.A.Baskakov noted,“ often the Western origin is artificially attributed to the founder of the clan with a clearly pronounced eastern, Turkic origin surname, but, as a rule, information in genealogies about the eastern origin of the surname are more or less accurate and are confirmed by the corresponding oriental names and nicknames of their ancestors. ”Baskakov NA Russian surnames of Turkic origin. M., 1979, p. 10.
*** We have all the pillar noble families from the Varangians and other aliens. M. Pogodin.
“Our nobility, not of feudal origin, but gathered in later times from different sides, as if to replenish an insufficient number of the first Varangian aliens, from the Horde, from the Crimea, from Prussia, from Italy, from Lithuania ...” Historical and critical passages M. Pogodina. Moscow, 1846, p. 9.
In the essay “On Damage to Morals in Russia, Prince M.M. Shcherbatov (1733-1790), a descendant of an ancient boyar clan, complained about the “opodlenie” of the nobility, that is, the penetration of persons from other classes into it. He believed that the new noble ranks are usually given to “breeders and merchants,” that is, those from whom, according to Shcherbatov, “grandfather stole, his son robbed, and his grandson robs” (article “Thoughts on the Nobility”, p. 78).
Some Russian noblemen have their origin from the Grand Duke Rurik and then descend from the Grand Duke Vladimir, other noble people who have left have their origin in the crowned heads; many surnames, although they do not take a kind from the sovereign, were descended from very noble people who went to the service of the Grand Dukes of Russia, consider several centuries of their antiquity and adorned themselves with famous merits to our country. - From the speech of Prince M.M. Shcherbatova at a meeting of the Penal Commission. Sat Russian Imperial Historical Society, vol. 4, p. 192.
Such as Buturlins, Chelyadnins, Kutuzovs declared their Germanic origin, Morozovs and Velyaminovs had Varangian roots. Some of the boyars were Polonized Western Russians. Others announced a "Prussian" origin ... "Prussian" in this case, apparently, meant Germanic. This group included the Khvostovs, the Romanovs (originally known as the Koshkins, and then the Zakharyins) and the Sheremetyevs. The Golovins and Khovrins had Greek roots. Some of the best Moscow boyar families were “Tatar” (Mongolian or Turkic). Prominent among them were the Bulgakovs, the Velyaminov-Zernovs (not to be confused with the original Velyaminovs), the Saburovs and the Godunovs were branches of this genus. The Arsenievs and Bakhmetyevs settled in Russia at the end of the XIV and in the middle of the XV centuries, respectively. Vernadsky G. Mongols and Russia, p.375. "

[Sweles]

Quote: Nagaibak

As always, you are talking nonsense, but nothing is the norm for you.

Well, why this excursion? It just seemed to you that they answered my words. It is enough to pay attention to such a fact as the fact that already under Peter the Great, and everything becomes clear how the "sovereign" tyrannical usurper was in charge of his best people when Peter "opened the window" then all the European shit climbed into this window. But in order to give themselves legitimacy in Russian society, they began to assign themselves Russian surnames. This is the same as now, like Ivanov according to his passport, but in fact he is bursting, and pey_saty (a joke on topvo and side_sy cannot be said), and cut off ...

[but still]

Word BOYARINBy the way, of Bulgarian origin, in Old Russian they wrote, as in Old Bulgarian, BOLARIN (in modern Bulgarian it was left - Bolyarin), which speaks of the Bulgarian origin of the Old Russian aristocracy.

[but still]

Who secretly put a minus - prove that the word BOYARIN not of Bulgarian origin!

[Seal]

I did not minus. However, I want to draw your attention to words such as:
- "Bauer" (German);
- "Boer" (Dutch);
- Baron. The term "gypsy baron" is also widely known. It has nothing to do with the title of nobility. Baro in gypsy means "big, chief".

[but still]

How did the Germanic languages ​​influence the Old Bulgarian? What kind of historical contacts were there for this? Well, let's say your fantastic assumption that the Bulgarian word BOLYARIN comes from "Bauer" (German) , then the German word came from:
Origin:
Dem Wort liegen das althochdeutsche Neutrum (möglicherweise auch Maskulinum) bur (Wohnung, Keller) und das mittelhochdeutsche maskuline Substantiv būr (Vogelkäfig) zu Grunde.


You also the word Bolyarin / boyar from the word boiler print

[but still]

And why did the Varangians-Rurikovichs not enter the German word BAUER into the Old Russian language, but used the Bulgarian BOLYARIN / BOYARIN, what did the Varangians use foreign words in the presence of their Varangian? The Vikings would magnify their close associates in Russia with the Edelsmen ... or then they still have not formed edelshaft?

[Seal]

So maybe there's just Old Bulgarian nothing to do with it? What year do you have an authentic document in Old Bulgarian with the mention of this word? Can I see it?

[but still]

Seal (1) RU Today, 02:56 ↑

So maybe there's just Old Bulgarian nothing to do with it? What year do you have an authentic document in Old Bulgarian with the mention of this word? Can I see it?

Judge for yourself - the Bulgarian (Danube) state was formed before the state of Russia. Christianity was also officially adopted earlier. Bulgarian literature also appeared earlier. Moreover, the Old Russian state adopted Christianity thanks to Bulgarian confessors and Bulgarian liturgical books. So the first old Russian books corresponded with the Bulgarian. Yes, and Princess Olga herself was a Danube Bulgarian. So Old Bulgarian, it is the so-called Church Slavonic, very much more so.

[but still]

Someone is minus, but WORD can not refute my words ...

[Seal]

Again. What year do you have an authentic document in Old Bulgarian with the mention of this word? Can I see it?

Yes, and Princess Olga herself was a Danube Bulgarian.

For starters, it would be nice for you to prove that it was documented at all. Moreover, at the time that the official version of the story allots to her.
And only then also prove that she was a Bulgarian. Or a chisel

Old Russian state converted to Christianity thanks to Bulgarian confessors

That is, you insist that in the beginning brought bogomilism to Russia?

[but still]

So you acknowledge meansthat the Bulgarians "brought Bogomilism to Russia" Yes, in the same way as in Russia the official Orthodox faith was "brought"

About Princess Olga. Do you question its existence? But what about Old Russian literature? Do you have any old Russian literature, in your opinion, where is it written about? But what about your ROC, where is it considered a saint?

As for the Bulgarian word BOYARIN / BOLARIN. In the text of the Bulgarian priest (you prompted me about bogomilstvo ) "Conversation against the Bogomils" of Cosmas Presbyter, 10 century you will find the word BOLYARIN (in the Wikipedia section "literature" in the text of Popruzhenko there is an alphabetical index of the words of the analyzed text, so there you will find the word BOLYARIN with the letter "B")
And now you find the word BOYARIN in the old Russian text,
written before the 10th century or at least 10 centuries

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%B7%D1%8C%D0%BC%D0%B0_%D0%9F%D1%80%


D0%B5%D1%81%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80

[Seal]

So you admit, it means that the Bulgarians "brought Bogomilism to Russia"

What do you mean, I admit?
I just asked you a question

That is, you insist that in the beginning brought bogomilism to Russia?

Based on the widespread version that the Bulgarians were passionate about bogomilskoy.

In the text of the Bulgarian priest (you told me about bogomiliya smile) “Conversation against the Bogomil” by Kozma Presbyter, 10th century

The text itself, clearly dated to the 10th century, and not stories about the text - to the studio !!

[but still]

It’s not good to get out - have valor!

The text itself, clearly dated to the 10th century, and not stories about the text - to the studio!

I clearly indicated where on the Internet, without looking up from the sofa , you can read the analyzes of the text of Kozma Presbyter. Repeat again? In Google write the words "Kozma Presbyter", there is an article about him in Wikipedia, there is also one of the pages of the list of the ancient text in scanned form. Below, in the section "Literature", there are links - click the scanned book of the scientist Popruzhenko, where he analyzes the text. Next, find the alphabetical index of the words of the ancient text, on the letter "B" you will find the word "BOLYARIN". This is a sofa reading option.
The second option is to find in Google where the ORIGINAL lists of the text of Kozma Presbyter are stored (there are several of them in Russia), find out IN WHICH MUSEUMS or ARCHIVES they are stored, and, - go personally to study the originals of ancient texts

[Seal]

Lord, what a nerve. You have made a completely cheating conclusion from my words and now require me to show valor in what? To get involved in your cheating discussion?

Why does everyone as confident as you NEVER confirm their words? Damn, well, everything is just like a carbon copy! You, that everyone was kept in one madhouse? Why does everyone always write the same thing: "

find in google where the original documents are stored (the name of the document varies depending on the topic of discussion) find out in WHICH MUSEUMS or ARCHIVES they are stored, and, - go personally to study the originals of ancient texts

Remember once and for all.
1. Decent people give always give a direct link, and do not give advice to search in Google.
2. If instead of a direct link they give advice to search in Google - this means only one thing that the one who gives such advice didn’t even see the document he is talking about.
3. And if the one who sends to Google to look for something that he himself did not see, then forgive me, but what should I call such a character? (you in this case).
4. Well, if you understand what you should be called, then I'm sorry, do not be offended if you are sent to a known address.
So either you begin to behave correctly and confirm your words by direct links to genuine documents clearly dated by the time of writing (in the case of Kozma Presbyter, the document should be dated no later than the end of the 10th century) - or they will just silently minus you, thereby showing your Attitude to your arrogant fraudulent voice without entering into a discussion of your voice.

[but still]

You have a tantrum. Take it easy. And demand the originals of the documents referred to by the author of the article where we write in room 6.

[Seal]

That is, you acknowledge that you, just like the author, are in Chamber No. 6, since neither he nor you have any supporting documents? With this statement of the question, I absolutely agree.

[but still]

It is commendable that you out of obstinacy even began to read Have you read Ward 6 yet? Although you can read and read (I look in the book and see @ yoke)

[but still]

WHERE WAS THE GRAND THE GREAT PRINCESS RUSSIAN OLGA?

Here is a detailed article in a public language:

http://www.kray32.ru/interes010.html

[Seal]

Here is a detailed article in a public language:

I also explain in the public Russian language. Any historical book or historical article is only worth reading if photocopies of original documents clearly dated by the time of their writing, relating to the time described in the book or article of events are attached to it in the form of attachments or somehow.
If nothing is attached to a historical book or a historical article, this means that the book or article reflects only the personal point of view of the author (group of authors) on the possible reconstruction of "ancient historical events".
There is no need to pass off someone’s personal points of view, albeit beautifully written, as historical truths. This is stupid and ugly.

[but still]

An article in clear Russian gives you citations with links to specific texts. There are also quotes from Byzantine texts. You write in Google the name of the text and read about it.

When you read a scientific text, do you read all the texts to which the author refers? In this case, 10 pages of scientific text will require at least 10000 pages of sources, on the basis of which a readable text is compiled. Therefore, so that it is not, as you say, "stupid and ugly", the authors only refer to the sources and used literature

I’m already afraid that you will send me the Tale of Bygone Years, or the Word about Igor’s regiment in the ORIGINAL should be presented to you here

[but still]

Well, at least you don’t send to the Hermitage for any ORIGINAL

[KaPToC]

The originals of these works do not exist in nature.

[but still]

There are originals of LISTS

[KaPToC]

Originals of the 17-18th century

[but still]

LISTS 12-13 centuries original work 10th century The following have been preserved:

The earliest texts that have reached us are considered to be three excerpts from the Conversation:

1) “The Word of Cosmos of the Holy Apostle about those who want to be weathered in black robes” in a parchment collection of Russian origin of the XIII-XIV centuries; [1] 2) “Tell me how to order books of honor” - a passage in a Greek collection of the XIII century; [2] 3) “The Word of the Church Rank” - excerpt on a parchment sheet XII-XIII centuries. [3] and the revision of “On the doctrine of faith” - in the Serbian collection of the late XIII — beginning of the XIV century., Owned by P. Srechkovich

You laugh, but be consistent and principled - if you do not recognize the work of the Bulgarian monk Presbyter Kuzma "Conversations against the Bogomils" 10th century и LISTS his works 12-14 centuriesthen do not recognize and dating The Tale of Bygone Years (12th century), as the original is not preserved, but there are only lists in the Lavrentievsky and Ipatievsky arches of the 14-15th century. But how do we relate to the masterpiece of ancient Russian literature, A word about Igor's regimentwhose not only the original has not been preserved, but there are no lists either?

[but still]

Seal, what are you silent? You got into an argument, wrote a lot of bukof, I proved to you that the word BOLYARIN / BOYARIN is of Bulgarian origin. Now you are pleased to find the word Boyarin, mentioned earlier than in Bulgarian, in the ancient Russian books

[Seal]

I proved to you that the word BOLYARIN / BOYARIN is of Bulgarian origin.

What-oooh ??? You "proved" ???

[but still]

Take off your silly stubborn glasses and see

[Seal]

But what about the masterpiece of ancient Russian literature, the Word about Igor's regiment, whose not only the original has not been preserved, but there are no lists?

Treat him exactly as Catherine II reacted to him when Musin-Pushkin tried to hand her this "masterpiece" of yours, counting on a reward. She showed no interest in your "masterpiece". Which made Musin-Pushkin very sad. It turned out that it was enough for Catherine II to have a quick look at this "masterpiece" in order to understand what it really is.

[but still]

But what about the RAS (Russian Academy of Sciences)? You out of obstinacy act unpatriotic It is even mildly said. To be more precise, it is harmful

[Seal]

In 1937, did your grandfather or your grandmother prove that they were right in everyday matters in the same way — knocking on neighbors in the NKVD that neighbors are wreckers and enemies of the people?
If there is evidence - I do not need any Academy, that with anything that has been proved is to agree.
And if there is NO evidence, then at least refer to three Academies. But there was no evidence, and never will be. Accordingly - my consent will not agree with the unproven.

[Seal]

I’m already afraid that you will send me the Tale of Bygone Years, or the Word about Igor’s regiment in the ORIGINAL should be presented to you here

Do not be afraid. After you admitted that you, along with the author of the article, are in ward No. 6 - I will not demand anything from you.
Especially since you, as an honorary patient of Chamber No. 6, cannot reach, that I am always talking about DOCUMENTS.
And for some reason you suddenly decided to be afraid that I would start demanding the originals of fiction from you: PVL and SPI.
Take the medicine or little bump and calm down.
Firstly, neither PVL nor SPI are documents;
Secondly, their originals do not exist in nature;
In the third, even Catherine II did not recognize SPI. And then she understood a lot about history, since she herself had contributed a lot to the ancient history of Russia.

[but still]

You have personally sunk into a puddle of your own ignorance. So not only have you slapped yourself, you are also stubbornly trying to get out, writhing like a worm in your own puddle, sinking head over heels in your own mud. And we could have come out of the situation with honor and dignity (having joked, or with the words “didn’t hear”, “didn’t know”) ... But apparently you have this type of behavior in the norm - over there in a different topic and with other commentators behave in a similar way ... They slapped themselves, so they are also ready to dirty your Russian scientists for the sake of stupid stubbornness.

[Seal]

I am not entering into a discussion with the inhabitants of House No. 6.

This is the prerogative of orderlies.

[Penzuck]

Quote: Seal

- "Bauer" (German);

Bauer is a peasant.

[Seal]

Bauer is a peasant.

Landowner.

[Penzuck]

Quote: Seal

Landowner.

Farmer and the landowner are two different things.

Eat Vitamin - calm down.
build - sow in one of the values.
Open the dictionary and read.

[Seal]

The word "Bauer" has extensive semantics and can be translated as a peasant, a farmer, and a fist. Bauer is a farmer (Landwirt) and a landowner (Landherr) or a serf (Leibeigener) or a fist (Großbauer).
However, experts note that our term "peasants" can be translated into German as "Bauern", but not vice versa.

[but still]

Well, of course, a common Indo-European root can be deduced from any word, and all words of all languages ​​of the Indo-European language family are related. As for the word BOYARIN / BOLARIN, it appeared in Russian from the Danube Bulgarians.

[Seal]

Halva, halva, halvaaaaaa

[but still]

Nothing to answer?

[Seal]

And what else can answer idle talk?

[but still]

You have epaulets and stars, but the honor of valor and dignity is not.

[Penzuck]

Bauer is a person who, on his or her own land, processes it himself or hires others.

http://enc-dic.com/fasmer/Bojarin-1907/
Boyarin, on the other hand, is an aristocrat; he does not wave a hoe and does not twist cows.
For the first time, boyars (bolyars) appear in the First Bulgarian Kingdom. Boyars called the representatives of the military aristocracy. They made council under the king and enjoyed privileges.
Bulgarians (became famous) and Bulgars (Turkic-speaking) brought this word to the Slavs
bai "noble, rich" + -är, that is, "noble person", whence the boliarin was obtained as a result of the influence of the bolia.
Boliy` - Explanatory Dictionary of Dahl`. church. cf. degree from great, great; more.

[Seal]

They made council under the king and enjoyed privileges.

The decree of the Bulgarian Tsar on the creation of the Bolshevik Council - to the studio !!!
The decree of the Bulgarian king "On the establishment of privileges for the Bulgarian bolars" - in the studio !!!

But blah-ball-blah is not necessary here.
And dear V. Dal is a collector of expressions of the Russian language, and not a researcher of their "antiquity."

[but still]

Wipe your eyes stubborn given to you Fasmer etymology And Dahl's explanatory dictionary

So you are again trying to discredit recognized scientists? Who are you?

[Seal]

Once again especially for idiots.

And dear V. Dal is a collector of expressions of the Russian language, and not a researcher of their "antiquity."

Farmer too.
They collected and described what they managed to find. Without going into the study of the "antiquity" of the origin of the expressions found.
How much are all the characters Those who brazenly push their fantasies, not being able to bring at least one proof argument, invariably go over to this "yes, who are you?"

[yastr]

))) this does not mean anything. Why not the other way around?
In modern Russian, many words have been lost or some letters have been added, and the same meaning in this term is very easily explained by the commonality of all Slavic languages.

[but still]

yastr RU Today, 17:09 ↑

))) this does not mean anything. Why not the other way around?

Well, of course, on the contrary, the Old Russian state appeared before the Bulgarian (Danube), the Scythians Rusich adopted Christianity earlier and the Old Russian literature appeared before the Bulgarian.

And the Volga Bulgars Rusich-Scythians taught helmets and weapons (with Arabic script) to make. And the Volga Bulgars saw the Kremlin in Moscow and then copied it in Kazan. And the Mongol Rusich-Scythians on horses taught to ride!

In how tricky - if anything is Russian, it’s Russian, but if it’s NOT Russian, it’s SLAVIC! By the way, this trick to the word BOYARIN / BOLARIN does not work - the Western Slavic-speaking peoples do not have this word. This word was used only in those lands where there was a Bulgarian kingdom (Vlahia, Moldova) and Bulgarian influence (Kievan Rus)

[Spnsr]

Forgive me, of course, generously!
but it’s not appropriate to talk about antiquity, unless of course you think that two civilizations, one ancient and the other, live on planet earth!
the fact is that the emergence of states on the territory of Eurasia began to occur at the turn of the 15-16 centuries, even before the appearance of the Romanovs in Russia, but it seems to me that with their active participation, which contributed to their coming to power in Third Rome (or, so as not to embarrass anyone, as Moscow is now called) ... and the rest went on already when they were on the throne of the Russian Empire!
so to talk about the birthright (in terms of states), and even more so to dispute the dependence of the structure of influence on the emergence of the Russian Empire, this honest word is empty, especially since Bulgaria arose after the Ottomans first began to crush their peoples with Islam, and then, the basis of this emerging theory of Pan-Slavism among the Romanovs, and the liberation of "enslaved peoples", not only from the USSR and the Communist Party, but from the Ottoman Empire, the subject of which Bulgaria was ....
the campaign the most honest in history is the Armenians, since they believe that the very first document in their archives dates from 1607 .... just the time of the formation of the first states that were originally subjects of one large federation ....

[but still]

Listen. We are all writing comments to an article on a historical topic. We talk about historical events and the relationship of peoples. In your comments, you showed the generally accepted views of Russians and Russian-speaking representatives of the countries of the former USSR about the Bulgarians only as a people liberated by the Russian Empire from the Ottomans. In Bulgaria, everyone knows the fact of Liberation, no one denies it, this part of the Bulgarian history connected with Russia is described in textbooks. Why then do you and some commentators deny the facts of the Bulgarian contribution to the formation (religious, spiritual, cultural) of the ancient Russian state? And there are 2 such influences in the history of Russia - in the scientific community they are called "The first and second South Slavic influence. It turns out that Russia is a part of the Bulgarian history (Liberation from the Ottomans). But Bulgaria does not appear as a part of Russian history. Why do you deny the Bulgarian contribution to the development of ancient Russia? By the way, you, like the majority, obviously draws information mainly from the media - a formatter of public opinion. But you read what they write in your academic circles in Russia:

A significant part of books, and in particular liturgical ones, was brought in the X-XI centuries. from Bulgaria. Old Slavic (Old Bulgarian) and Old Russian languages ​​are so close that Russia was able to use the already prepared Old Slavic Cyrillic alphabet created by the great Bulgarian enlighteners Cyril and Methodius [1] in the XNUMXth century, and the Bulgarian books, being formally “foreign-language”, essentially did not require translation; individual features of the Bulgarian morphological system, as well as part of the vocabulary of the Bulgarian language (the so-called Old Slavicism) were included in the system of the Old Russian literary language.

History of Russian literature of the XNUMXth - XNUMXth centuries
Ed. D. S. Likhachev
Textbook manual for students of ped. in-to
http://www.libs-web.ru/philol/lihachev/1_2.html

And to say that Bulgaria "emerged after the Ottomans first began to crush their peoples with Islam" is the height of ignorance. But I am sympathetic to this - you say what you hear in the media. So read a little before writing a comment.

[Spnsr]

Quote: but still

And to say that Bulgaria "emerged after the Ottomans first began to crush their peoples with Islam" is the height of ignorance. But I am sympathetic to this - you say what you hear in the media. So read a little before writing a comment hi

in general, you are right, but only that information about the past is drawn from the real present and more or less objective past, that past, which could not be greatly obscured, as interested parties began to appear in the flow of information, and they already did everything to Do not shut up the fact of an event! and texts earlier than the 18th century, excuse me, no matter what institution, even a very respected one does, it will nevertheless voice either the information necessary for politicians or, what’s more terrible, the information will fit the prevailing interpretation of history ... this is the minimum of acceptable interpretations!
now there’s a bit of politics and psychology, or political psychology, well, or how anyone looks at it !: in sight is a large empire, the bloodthirstiness of which is obvious to some allies among themselves, while some have their own vision of the dismemberment of this state (for them, an empire), and others are different, despite the fact that before all this was the Russian World (if you remember there is a mention of Western Russia - the White Horde, Eastern Russia - the Golden Horde, and Southern Russia - the Blue Horde), they just had the mind to change the dynasty! and it remained to finish off entire areas that were dangerous ... but the collapse of some entailed the emergence of others, both the Russian Empire and Europe, the Kingdom of the so-called Karl, they write that the Swede, but he climbed into the buffer territory, where he clashed with Peter , then Napoleon, but how many times Europe regained its size, and constantly climbed east, constantly, as soon as they, because of their size, begin to feel significance, wait for them in Russia ...
the destruction of the old, entails the creation of new ones, and this is an axiom, if you look at the world soberly ....
and this, and an attempt to document, if not their claims to the territory, then at least give a message, so that those to whom the message is addressed do it yourself! perhaps the Pan-Slavic theory was voiced specifically for Bulgaria, but had an effect on another vast territory ....
Well, all right, with Bulgaria and the Ottoman Empire it turned out the same way as with Ukraine now, despite the fact that Bulgaria now at least the government has a hand in this, even just playing along!
no one reduces Bulgaria, there are simply objective facts that contradict your statements !!!

[Penzuck]

Quote: SpnSr

there are simply objective facts that contradict your statements !!!

WASSA! YOU KRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT!

Quote: SpnSr

Western Russia is the White Horde, Eastern Russia is the Golden Horde, and Southern Russia is the Blue Horde),

There are objective facts?
The existence of Mordvins, Udmurts, Komi, Mari, Khanty and Mansi, Hungarians, Bulgars, Burtases (extinct), Murom, Meshchera (Turkized) who do not want to fit into your "pan-Slavic" nonsense.
If you think that the "Romanovs" invented them - a flag in your hands and a drum around your neck.

[Spnsr]

why so much aggression?
although it

Quote: Penzuck

WASSA! YOU KRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT!

can tell you about the breakdown of the template that you are still trying to cling to with a statement like this

Quote: Penzuck

There are objective facts?
The existence of Mordvins, Udmurts, Komi, Mari, Khanty and Mansi, Hungarians, Bulgars, Burtases (extinct), Murom, Meshchera (Turkized) who do not want to fit into your "pan-Slavic" nonsense.

although there was a self-name, but the first description falls on the end of the 18th century, and this, on the contrary, confirms what I write in comments.
the fact is that in the description, you can define self-name or belonging to the family as nationality, and moreover, give any background, depending on what kind of relationship with the government ....

Quote: Penzuck

If you think that the "Romanovs" invented them - a flag in your hands and a drum around your neck.

- and this, in general, I don’t want to touch it stinks! as if not for an adult!

[but still]

Quote: SpnSr

although there was a self-name, but the first description falls on the end of the 18th century, and this, on the contrary, confirms what I write in comments.

READ:
https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%91%D1%8A%
D0%BB%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F

......

[Spnsr]

I don’t want to offend you, and first of all, because I can’t give you examples from the material, this is not a small work, and I don’t have enough time just to share impressions that are based literally on the same story, which you and the others are reading, only my perception has an impact both objective reality and the nearest relatively objective past. relative because the story is also hushed up, to be more specific, what comes to us even from the history of the Romanov era or from the era of the USSR is a voiced story that we wanted to voice, or from the whole stream of information wars we managed to hear ...
in my opinion, one cannot study the history of the distant past without evaluating the present and

and more or less objective past, that past which couldn’t be greatly missed, as interested parties began to appear in the flow of information, and they did everything possible so as not to silence the fact of this or that event!

Regarding the "traditional" history, it is easier to believe in Greek and Roman mythology, especially in view of the fact that even before the 17-18 centuries the peoples inhabiting the territory of Russia, and not only, belonged to tribal beliefs! And this often could be based on belief into ancestors and their veneration ... and this is permissible deification of an ancestor (go to church, this is perhaps a distant example, but there are faces of saints, and they are our ancestors, and if I understand correctly, you have the same, it is difficult to say how much Orthodoxy changed after Peter's reforms, but that is)

By the way, there are western, eastern Slavs on the map, but no southern !!!
I will not dispute!
but, if you spread this map over the entire territory of Eurasia, then this map may have a slightly different look, and change the arrow to the north to the opposite, i.e. due to the tribal city of Bolgar (there were no nationalities before the 18-19 centuries, the population was named in a big city, the name of the genus was also the basis of the name, and if the tribal union is likely to be linked to the locality) this map will take a different look (someone put on the site the map of genetic resettlement on the ground is a little removed, but !!! (by the way, it seems there was even a link to the text) the photo somehow inserted into the comment and remained)

I will try to find time and show texts and what causes doubts about them
and put on them tracing paper of the modern and near objective past. enough time and mood !!!

[but still]

By the way, there are western, eastern Slavs on the map, but no southern !!!
I will not dispute!

Look more closely - on the map, where the legend is, under the numbers there is an orange rectangle and it says south slavs. Although I adhere only to the term Slavic-speaking according to the generally accepted classification of languages ​​(although some languages ​​were simply stuck in some groups there because of not knowing where to stick them). After all, the British, the Dutch and the Swedes do not call themselves "Germans", just as the French with the Portuguese and Romanians do not call themselves "romances". Can you imagine this - brothers Hungarians, Finns and Udmurts, eh? So it should be with "Slavism" - a group of Slavic-speaking peoples. But only.

And where does the spread of haplogroups? Let's not stray so far from the topic. So we get to Ethiopia.

[Penzuck]

Quote: SpnSr

can tell you about the breakdown of the template that you are still trying to cling to with a statement like this

Exactly! Mordvin-Erzya Evseviev traveled to the Mordovian villages in the 19 century and personally recorded Mordovian songs, epics, legends, which reflect both social, everyday, and historical moments. Be it relations with the Russians, Nogais, Tatars or with Pugachev, who is called the "Mordovian prince" because he raised the Mordovians to revolt against the Romanovs. And the Romanovs, in your opinion, invented the Mordvins? And songs were invented and fairy tales? And folk cuisine, traditions, gods?
What aggression is there, you need to communicate affectionately ...

[Spnsr]

yes you are a pervert, my friend!

Quote: Penzuck

And do you think the Romanovs came up with Mordvinians? And the songs came up with fairy tales? And folk cuisine, traditions, gods?

why the Romanovs, Evseviev, then the description went on, and the more beautiful you describe the brighter your ancestors will be !!! I won’t argue, you yourself said the 19th century, and you yourself said that Pugachev

with Pugachev, who is called the "Mordovian prince"

so you’re kind of trying to prove what you have learned, but you don’t know how to read!

Regarding the "traditional" history, it is easier to believe in Greek and Roman mythology, especially in view of the fact that even before the 17-18 centuries the peoples inhabiting the territory of Russia, and not only, belonged to tribal beliefs! And this often could be based on belief into ancestors and their veneration ..., and this is permissible deification of the ancestor (go to the church, this is perhaps a distant example, but there are faces of saints, and they are our ancestors)

the population of the entire state is called TATARAVYA, as it is now RUSSIANS

Until the 18th and 19th centuries there were no nationalities, the population was called in a big city, the name of the genus was also the basis of the name, and if the tribal union is, then it’s likely to be linked to the area, for example, the center of the Volga region of the Bulgarians!

[but still]

In the globalist Russian-Siberian!

I clearly showed you the presence of Bulgarian STATES and on the Danube and in the northern Black Sea coast in 7 century. And the Bulgarians were not called the city of Bulgarians on the Volga, because Bulgars on the Volga and Kama came there from Ancient Great Bulgaria from the Black Sea.

And then they started working and just listen to yourself:

Until the 18th and 19th centuries there were no nationalities, the population was called in a big city, the name of the genus was also the basis of the name, and if the tribal union is, then it’s likely to be linked to the area, for example, the center of the Volga region of the Bulgarians!

As for the Finno-Ugric peoples - in vain you read that - they are not mentioned as peoples since the 18-19th centuries, as you are imposing on everyone, but from the Tale of Bygone Years, maybe earlier - I have not read about it, but I will certainly read it.

Country Biarmia http://www.tomovl.ru/komi/Biarmia.html

[but still]

And what's that? Traces rusich Scythians?

Археология

Cherkaskul culture - the culture of the Bronze Age in the south of the Urals and Western Siberia

Mezhovskaya culture - Bronze Age culture in the Trans-Urals and Western Siberia

Ananyinskaya culture - the culture of the Iron Age in the Middle Volga

Pianobor culture - the culture of the Iron Age in the Volga and Ural regions

Bakhmutin culture - the Iron Age culture in the Southern Urals and Prikamye

Dyakovskaya culture - the culture of the Iron Age in Central Russia

Gorodets culture - the culture of the Iron Age in southern Russia and the Volga region

Karayakupov culture - the culture of the Iron Age in the South Urals

Kushnarenkovskaya culture - the culture of the Iron Age in the South Urals

Mazunin culture - the Iron Age culture in the Kama region and in the lower reaches of the Belaya River

Sargat culture - Iron Age culture in Western Siberia

[Spnsr]

Quote: but still

Globalist

not that word! no one says that some kind of tribe did not have their own view of the world, especially in view of occupation or habitat ....

Quote: but still

And then they started working and just listen to yourself

maybe it worked out, but I share more my impressions of what my acquaintance with history makes me and listen not only to myself, but exactly what makes me impress!

Quote: but still

read - they are not mentioned as peoples from the 18-19 centuries

I will not dispute, and simply because there will not be much time at all, and there will be a huge number of documents and crafts to confirm the "traditional" version of the story, but a quote from the text link to the site that you gave

(13.7.1890 - 30.11.1949/XNUMX/XNUMX)

, but it’s one look, and the other, it’s probably some kind of self-name, but not necessarily the state that was used to designate the place, but not the fact that

Scandinavian name for the White Sea coast. Dvinsk land, others associate this name with Perm of Russian chronicles and, accordingly, with the basins of Vychegda and Kama. In the light of modern ideas, the probability of episodic visits by Scandinavians in the 8-10th centuries is not ruled out. some areas of the European North of Russia, in particular, the Northern Dvina basin. The hypothesis of Professor Dmitry Vladimirovich Bubrich (13.7.1890 - 30.11.1949/XNUMX/XNUMX), according to which the ancient Russian ethnonym Perm (Perem) and the Old Norse "Beormas" formed on the basis of the Finnish-Karelian Rera-maa (distant, northern land, Zavolochye), is considered the most acceptable. . So the Baltic-Finnish peoples called the land lying east of the Dvina land, and later the Russians transferred this term to the land where the ancestors of the Komi peoples lived.

this is not a hypothesis, and especially since the authors are already under the influence of "traditional" history ...

[Penzuck]

Quote: SpnSr

yes you are a pervert, my friend!

Wrong word ... Keyword: "collected", i.e. I traveled around Mother Russia in the villages and in the villages, listened to the old people, and recorded what the girls were singing ...
And you "invented" to de: "the ancestors seem to be ancient." It turns out that the Mordovians lived in the caves, and the Slavs galloped past her to and fro. And then the "communists" came and came up with everything ... and Mordovians and languages ​​and songs. Good people....
The last paragraph is a masterpiece. Like the Mordva-Erzi (in the Chuvash furrier EMNIP), there was an ARZAMAS center, so it remained ... As the word HOMELAND was. MASTOR-AVA - so it remains.
As there were fools in Mother Russia, it never ends ... And not any toponyms, be it Penza, Uza, Exiles, Kolyshily, Pachelma, Moksha, Mokshan, etc. they won’t convince you ... The Romanovs, the Communists and the railway masons probably also invented them, and the most terrible Vatican ... Maybe UFOs founded Penza?

[andj61]

Quote: Nikolai S.

It turns out, crushed. And there is evidence of conquest

The situation is exactly the same in Europe. "Wild" Germans and Slavs destroyed the great Roman Empire!
True, there was a question about savagery. The Romans actually had a Bronze Age, they even made weapons from bronze, and only at the end of the imperial period did they begin to massively use iron products, and even then this technology was adopted from the "wild" Germans, Gauls, and Slavs. At the same time, they formed their legions from these peoples, but with weapons produced according to the technologies of these peoples.
So regarding the construction of the state, all kinds of different laws, trade, luxury goods and consumption, the organization of the army, tactics and strategy of warfare - the Romans were ahead. But as regards the military economy, this is a big question ...
And what do we really know about that long, almost 2000 years ago, history of these peoples, their culture, technologies, states, to consider them wild?
Historical evidence in stone, parchment, on metal - preserved. They built stone from the south, where there was little wood. But wood, birch bark is short-lived material, but in a temperate climate it is much more accessible than stone. And if old historical monuments have not been preserved, this does not mean that they did not exist at all and that the people were wild.

[bandabas]

Let's go further into the depths of the centuries. Let's remember the Trojan War. The Achaeans won. And then the Dorians came to visit them. And then the legendary Sparta appeared. But everyone called themselves Greeks.

[andj61]

Quote: bandabas

Let's go further into the depths of the centuries. Let's remember the Trojan War. The Achaeans won. And then the Dorians came to visit them. And then the legendary Sparta appeared. But everyone called themselves Greeks.

None of them called themselves Greeks ...

Self-name - Hellenes (plural Greek Έλληνες (cf. Greek Elins, Greek (att. And ion) hellenes, Dor. And Aeolian ellanes)), are named after the Greek ancestor in Greek mythology - Ellina. Initially, the Greeks called one of the Thessalian tribes. The Greeks call their country "Hellas." At the same time, Hellas was originally called one of the regions of Thessaly and one of the cities of this region. The Greeks call their language “Hellenic” (ελληνικά Elinik), and their religion “Hellenism”. In ancient times, Έλληνες was also the official name of the Corinthian Union; at the same time, the ethnonym Panellins was used.
In ancient times, the Greeks also called themselves Achaeans, by the name of one of the branches of the Hellenes, named because of the ancestor of the Achaeans in Greek mythology - Achaeus, Danians, which coincides with the name of one of the peoples of the sea, the Argivians (more correctly, the Argeys, Argivians, from their Latin name - Argivi), from the name of the city of Argos, by which Argolis was called in antiquity, all Peloponnese and even all Greece.

Only Europeans call them Greeks ...
In the east, the Greeks are called Ionians, by the name of one of the branches of the ancient Greeks, named because of their ancestor - Jonah. Thus, the Armenians, for example, call Greece "Hunastan", the Jews - "Yavan", the Arabs - "al-Yunan", the Turks - "Yunanistan" (literally "the land of the Ionians"). Georgians call the Greeks "Berdzneby", in the singular - "Berdzeni", Greece "Saberdzeneti". According to one version, this name is related to the word "brdzne" - wisdom. Adygs call the Greeks "Urym", which comes from the Turkish-Turkish term Rum - Rome.

[bandabas]

Good. You’re right, I wrote without thinking until the end. We’ll call them Hellenes. You can call it anything you like. From the change of terms the essence does not change. The bottom line is that fresh blood has come.

[Kasym]

The author mixed everything, turned it over under "his theory". For example, I'm not going to argue that among us Kazakhs, every 5-6 has a common ancestor with the Slavs (18%, haplogroup R1a1; "in general, among Kazakhs there are carriers of all haplogroups, which was a sensation among geneticists"). This says that the "penetration" into the Great Steppe came from all directions (2% have a common ancestor with the Arabs, 12% with the Caucasians, 5% with the Finno-Ugric peoples, all the rest are less than 2%, over 40% have their roots).
Nomads were united by Genghis Khan into one people, into one army. And the divided Slavic principalities simply could not resist such a UNION. Subsequently, the Slavs, Germans, etc., followed this example.
The origin of the words "Mongol", "Cossack" (it would be correct not a Kazakh, but a Cossack), "ataman" has Turkic roots. And this has already been discussed a thousand times on the site.
I do not want to say that Genghis Khan was a Kazakh (there were no such people then). But he introduced this word into everyday life, this is one of the three strategies of Genghis Khan. And the word MONGOL (numerous), he also introduced. The fact that he was a Turk does not cause any doubts among ours. Rod Borzhiginov, but since he became great, then he was given the opportunity to organize his clan (now it is a clan TORE).
Let the author show at least one descendant of Genghis Khan, and we can (3-5 thousand families)!

[bandabas]

And if you take in Eurasia, maybe 1000000 families?

[Kasym]

The direct descendants of Genghis Khan are considered children by his "elder" wife Borte, from the Konrat clan (Middle Zhuz of Kazakhs) and one adopted son. My wife is also of this kind.
Neither the Kyrgyz, nor the Mongols, nor the Tatars, etc. cannot point a finger at any family and say that they are descendants of Genghis Khan. My neighbor Maksut from the Tore clan is a direct descendant of Genghis Khan by his son Chagaday.

[Oldwiser]

and how many steps are in the family tree from your neighbor Maksut to Chagaday (the son of Genghis Khan), dear "Kasym"?

[Oldwiser]

and how many steps are in the family tree from your neighbor Maksut to Chagaday (the son of Genghis Khan), dear "Kasym"?

[Kasym]

Direct descendants are only along the male line.
And how many steps, who knows.

[Oldwiser]

If the chain of the family tree is not fixed (it is not known how many steps), then how is it known that the "root node of the tree" is exactly <CHAGADAY>?

[Oldwiser]

If the chain of the family tree is not fixed (it is not known how many steps), then how is it known that the "root node of the tree" is exactly <CHAGADAY>?

[Kasym]

It’s enough for us that he is from the Torah family. For example, I am from the Zhalairov clan, among the Jalirs I am from the Myrza tribes, among the Myrz I from the Baibishe tribes, among the Baibishe I am from the Ak-Bota tribe. For example, Genghis Khan Mukhali was from Jalairov. Among the Torah there is the same gradation, which indicates from whom his line leads.

[Talgat]

All right Kasym says

I myself am a Kipchak (Kipchaks - they are Polovtsy, they are Kumans, etc.) - but most of the Kipchaks settled in the Russian people (but also in other peoples) But among the Kazakhs, some Kipchaks retained the name of the genus. Moreover, the descendants of the Kipchaks are not only the Kipchak clan, but other Kazakh clans

I have relatives of the Torah - they are in a "special position" - they really lead the genealogy from the children of Chinggis Khan - this is a genus of Chingizids and this has been conducted since antiquity
Any Kazakh knows this.

[KaPToC]

Claims for kinship with the great? Everyone who believes that he is a descendant of Genghis Khan (Napoleon, Hitler, Jesus Christ) can visit their great ancestors, since they are in the same chamber.

[Chisayna]

I’ll support you, in Tuva there is Lake Chagytay-Chagatai. And in Kazakhstan there is no such lake. I have never heard from Tuvinians that they are descending from Subudai or Genghis Khan, even though Tuva borders on Mongolia.

[Kasym]

The Bordzhigin clan originates from Altai, the Jalairov clan also from there, the Skin clan from the Arabs, the Usyun clan from China, etc.
Genghis Khan (Temujin) was born on the banks of the Onon River (northeastern Mongolia and the Trans-Baikal Territory). By the way, the western part of Mongolia (Altai Mountains) is mainly inhabited by Kazakhs and Altai peoples, there were no modern Mongols until the middle of the last century.
Kartos, where does greatness, etc.? Simply, the nomads were able to unite into a single people (union) and showed that such a UNION could. Or do you want to say that the Slavic tribes conquered China, India, Persia, Central Asia, the Middle East, etc. at that time? Organized the Horde and the Yuan Dynasty in China? It was the UNION of all the peoples of the USSR that helped us in the Second World War, and I do not think that the Russian principalities (territories) themselves could have resisted all the Nazis of Europe in such a war of annihilation.
Those descendants of the warriors of Attila are the modern Hungarians-Magyars. And among the Argyn clan (my mother's clan, the Middle Zhuz of the Kazakhs) there is a Magyar tribe. Geneticists have proven their direct relationship. Where is some greatness here? It's just that Atilla was a robber for the nomads of the Great Steppe, who was driven out and declared "outlawed". Return to his homeland was "ordered" for him - they would have killed all the cases, so he settled on the territory of modern Hungary.

[Seal]

About the Batu and Genghis Khan. Let’s take the Turks, for example, the Kazakhs, since they seem to be there and if, what, they’ll correct them, the orientation toward sunrise and sunset is taken as the basis for orientation in space. In the Kazakh language, sunrise is shygys, sunset is batys. Hence the East-Shygys, and the West-Batys. The main holy direction of the Turks (Kazakhs) was and remains the "East".
If you face east, then on the right (in the Kazakh language “right side” - “he”) will be Ontustik-South, and on the left (in the Kazakh language - “sol”), respectively, Soltustik-North. In this regard, everything located to the west of the steppe for the Kazakhs had the prefix "batu", and to the east - "shygys." Hence, the ruler of any western from the habitat of the Turks (Kazakhs) was called Batu-Khan (Batu). And the one who ruled east - well, for example, China - was Shygys Khan (in our pronunciation, Genghis Khan). That is, all of these Batu, Batu, Batys, and Shagysy (Genghis) could be (and were, after all, the West is full of all sorts of “Karls”) the names of both specific people and common names for all khans-rulers of these areas and territories. By the way, Genghis Khan is simply any “Solar Khan” or “Eastern Khan” and in the language of a number of Volga non-Turkic peoples. But apparently, the Volga peoples still nevertheless adopted this term, well, for example, among the Tatars.

Genghis Khan is a position. More precisely, the position is Khan. And Shagys or Chingis is the Eastern one. Just "Eastern Khan", of which there were thousands over the centuries. This is just another puncture from professional historians. If they (well, not they, but travelers, who then brought all this information to the European courts and court historians) walked (traveled) through the Turkic lands, then to the question "Who caused this or that destruction" from their Turkic-speaking counterparts could receive the following answers:
1) This was done by Shagys Khan (Genghis Khan). In the understanding of the narrator is some famous Khan, whose lands were located in the East. Well, a little east of those who were interviewed.
2) This was done by Batys-Khan (Batu, Batu). This is any Khan of lands located west of those who were interviewed. Batys - Western.

Well, from the south and from the north (from Siberia) the Turks were apparently attacked much less, and all the main claims of the Turkic-speaking storytellers put forward to the addresses of "Chinggis Khan" and "Batu Khan".
Historians, having collected such a mass of claims to "Genghis Khan" and "Batu Khan" and stupidly not understanding that they (well, or those travelers who then brought all this information to the European courts and court historians) were told simply about their local showdowns with some eastern or western neighbors for 300-400 years, and considering that "Chinggis Khan" and "Batu Khan" are the names of specific people, they decided that such large-scale acts could have been committed by exceptionally great people. And honestly mistaken, historians began to mold the myth of the "Great Genghis Khan" and his grandson "Batu Khan" (whom historians sent to the very west).

[Seal]

It's just that Atilla was a robber for the nomads of the Great Steppe, who was driven out and declared "outlawed".

Like it was announced on the radio - and at once in all auls and kishlaks and nomadic camps of the Great Steppe, everyone knew that a certain "Attila" was outlawed?
Yes, even in the 18th century, in Siberia and the Far East, we learned about a change of power in St. Petersburg when this next power was already irrelevant.

Return to his homeland was "ordered" for him

Was the border guards of the Great Steppe vigilantly watching this? Or customs officers? Apparently at all checkpoints from Europe to the Great Steppe hung portraits of Attila?
And for some reason, all these precautions did not prevent Atilla, according to the traditional version of history, from becoming the master of almost all of Europe, including present-day Ukraine, the Kuban and Rostov Region, and a number of other southern Russian regions.

[Kasym]

Dear Sergey Petrovich! I don't even want to argue. See grew up. site "AnAgA", section "peoples", find "Kazakhs". Or see the Chinese chronicles, where there are even portraits of Chigizkhan. Or explain to the Chinese that they did not have the Yuan dynasty, which was founded by the grandson of Genghis Khan Kubilaykhan (they write differently) - the son of the middle sons (Ogedei or Chagadai) of Chingiz, therefore they also consider their own. Kalmyks, Altai, etc. also speak the TRUTH, because he took as wives from all tribes-peoples and there are certainly descendants. I say that we also have them and we can even point our fingers, because the "older" wife is from the Konrat clan (Middle Zhuz of Kazakhs, my wife is from this clan, or do you want to prove to her that she is not from this clan ?!). I am sure that they are among the RUSSIANS! There are also MONGOL and CHINESE! Tell the Azerbaijanis that they did not have the Jalairid dynasty, who ruled in the 13-14 centuries.
You can believe it, but you can not. This is your RIGHT and TRUTH! What should I argue? These are the Hungarians, not us, who took the initiative to hire an independent, international team of geneticists and prove that our Magyars are their direct relatives. Not me, but the Hungarians with the Turks come here at the highest level and say that they have come home, to their homeland. I'm just trying to be somehow scientific. And about the robber - these are our legends. Let it be your way. By the way, this is the only authentic grave of the great conquerors. Tamerlane from the Barlas clan. Was not Khan. Emir. And for some reason he was a Rogue too. Why? Sergei Petrovich, you should have a discussion with our "Marek" on these topics, but he has not been seen for a long time. He "defended his thesis" about Attila . If anything, on the site you can search for his comments. All the worst.

[Seal]

Dear Sergey Petrovich! I don’t even want to argue.

Thank. So Shygys, Batys, Ontustik, Soltustik were not mistaken with the Turkic terms. And then brought from memory.

[starshina wmf]

We in Kalmykia say that we are the descendants of Genghis Khan, we mean that we were in the army of Genghis Khan, but we are not his direct descendants. There is a very large clan of Torgouts, which, by name, is considered to have come from the guard of Genghis Khan. Inside this clan they are subdivided into smaller genera. Although among the rest they call themselves bargains. All.

[starshina wmf]

For example, we have no one in a "special position." All clans are equally proud of their ancestors.

[starshina wmf]

Well, for example, I'm kind of merkit. But this does not mean that I am a descendant of the Merkit khan Tokhto beki. I noticed that in Kazakhstan, all descendants of Genghis Khan or relatives of his grandchildren do not spit.

[Kasym]

Sergeant Major-Mingiyan, Dear! Well, where do I write that Genghis Khan was a Kazakh! You have beguiled something. There was no such people then. It was he who rather mixed him up, and he was born 500 years ago. I write that there are his descendants on the "older" wife. And that's all. I write that we have a separate genus. And how do I know why the ancestors decided so. Well, do you have any questions? How do I know why they decided to divide into ZhUZs and lead 2 genera? You can build a sea of ​​versions, I just write what my father, mother, grandfather, dyatki gave me. And I will emphasize again. And geneticists have proved that there are his descendants all over the world. So among the Kalmyks there are also among the Mongols, etc. I'm talking about the Kazakh branch, along Borte (since it is from Konrat). We assert this without any genetics. And that's all. I am writing that the Kazakhs are a union of nomadic peoples, there may be some sedentary. And we have different roots. Turkmens, Kyrgyz, Altai peoples, etc. did not join. Well, what's the big deal, it's their right. I just described the structure of our people and that's it. And each clan has the same gradation as the respected torgout, and some a little different. So we are already related. Kazakhs say: "A Kazakh will find a relative everywhere!"
I just want to say that the descendants of the direct 3-5 thousand .. Torah in the early 90s gathered in Kyzyl-Orda (the old capital of Kazakhstan). There were about 1-1,5 of them; as my father-in-law said. Agree that among approximately 9-10 million Kazakhs (in Kazakhstan and about 14-15 in total) this is not such a big family. Those argyns and naiman, each, half a million. And other clan tribes have no less weight, there is and cannot be any humiliation. The genus of ANAS, for example, is also small. And no one will ever say that he is a descendant of Genghis Khan; except torah. This is unequivocal, because everyone is proud of their family, but together we are Kazakhs. All. You apparently misunderstood what I wrote.
Recently they wrote that the largest Kazakh family is Argyns for 650 thousand .. As they thought, I can’t imagine.

[Sweles]

Quote: Kasym

(Middle Zhuz Kazakhs) and od

back in the 19th century there was the Elder Horde, the Middle Horde, but when did the Zhuzes (a hundred) appear instead of the Horde?

[Kasym]

For Kazakhs, which consist of three Zhuzes + 2 genera separately (Leather and Torah). The genus Skin originates from the prophet and it is not for us, the modern Kazakh, to violate this gradation and deny what the ancestors bequeathed. I already wrote about the Torah (Genghisides). Since the ancestors decided so, then this makes sense.
And Zhuzy. There are several versions of the origin. For us, the Kazakhs, this primarily speaks of the place of origin of each of us (we did not have cities), it says from which places this person. And the second one. Genghis Khan divided the Great Steppe between the Elders, Middle and Younger sons (from Borte). And the tribes that inhabited these places in one Zhuz: Senior Zhuz (south), Middle Zhuz, Junior Zhuz (such a gradation was introduced after Genghis Khan, his descendants, Khans). And this does not mean that the Younger obeys the Elder, etc. .. Such is the structure of the Kazakhs and it is not for us to violate it.

[KaPToC]

The Trojan War is not an invention of even historians, but of a fiction writer.

[Seal]

The Achaeans defeated.

Is not a fact. The "winners" were received at home very badly.

[Alexey-74]

Self-name - Hellenes

[Mobius]

Quote: andj61

The situation is exactly the same in Europe. "Wild" Germans and Slavs destroyed the great Roman Empire!
True, there was a question regarding wildness.

What do we want from a slave parasite empire?

One has only to take a closer look, and it is clearly visible that all the splendor of Rome was spent on pumping resources from the conquered peoples and states (including human, cultural and intellectual).

By the way, now there is a similar parasite state ...

[ver_]

... the Roman Empire is a myth .. according to legend, it was founded by 2 brothers ... who were fed by a she-wolf .. Speaking of birds: according to the analysis of the she-wolf’s material, 15th century smelting ..

[nadezhiva]

Quote: Nikolay S.

Turkic language from the same Altai language family as Mongolian, Manchu. And according to the genotype, the Central Asians now are a cross between Mongoloids and Iranians (where more, where less). It turns out, crushed. And there is evidence of conquest.

Speaking A, say B. Let us then about the genetics of the Slavs. Short:

In human DNA, 46 chromosomes, half he inherits from his father, half from his mother. Of the 23 chromosomes received from the father, the only one - the male Y chromosome - contains a set of nucleotides that is transmitted from generation to generation without any changes for millennia. Genetics call this set a haplogroup. Every man who lives now has exactly the same haplogroup in his DNA as his father, grandfather, great-grandfather, great-great-grandfather, etc., in many generations.
Currently, owners of the Russian haplogroup R1a1 make up 70% of the total male population of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus, and up to 80% in ancient Russian cities and villages. R1a1 is a biological marker of the Russian ethnic group. This set of nucleotides is the “Russianness” in terms of genetics.

If there was a real Tatar-Mongol yoke - where are its traces? Genetics are silent. Indeed, Tatarstan was included in a rough calculation of these 70%, where R1a1 clearly should not dominate.

[Mr. Pippers]

Quote: nadezhiva

If there was a real Tatar-Mongol yoke - where are its traces?

And where are the traces of Napoleon’s campaign against us, for example ?!
What a mania to think, if we had an IGO, then we must have had a "bardel" ?!

[nadezhiva]

I even hesitate to ask: how can you compare the duration of the "Tatar-Mongol yoke" and the round trip (one-time) of the French army?

[Alexey-74]

many burials of French (not only of course Napoleonic soldiers in general) on the territory of Russia along the entire route. Well, plus the official literature. And so on. And from the "Mongol-Tatars" there is nothing at all ...

[aviator65]

Quote: Misters Pippers

And where are the traces of Napoleon’s campaign against us, for example ?!

And such lines as "Tell me, uncle, it's not for nothing ..." don't come to mind? They didn't hear about the Borodino field either7

[Alexey-74]

That's what this is about ... genetics is a very accurate thing, the Mongoloids, in theory, could not help but leave a genetic trace among the Slavs, but this is not, archaeological finds have not confirmed at least indirect signs (household items, burials, and other presence of another race). Antique images (usually foreign) - none of them have images of classical Mongols ... and much more

[Alexey-74]

I do not agree, the ethnic group living in Central Asia developed in parallel with the tribes from Mongolia (current name) and Northern China. Tajiks, Uzbeks, Afghans, Pakistanis - all Iranian-speaking group. The mixing of ethnic groups has always occurred (the same Tajiks are fair-skinned and have normal eyes, there are dark-skinned with more pronounced mogholoid features) .... and this does not prove that it was the Mongols (mogoloids) who left their mark on the Iranian-speaking ethnic group - this could happen in a completely natural way

[Sensatus]

The author refutes the myth that only the Mongols lived in the Golden Horde. I’m wondering where he got this myth from. It seems that both official science and other historians (for example, Gumilyov) do not claim this.
The same Gumilyov clearly says that there were few Mongols, so they built an empire on the principle of establishing somewhere their own managers over territories inhabited by the local population, and somewhere (like in Russia) loyal rulers from the local nobility.
And power control over the territories was carried out due to the lightning-fast transfer of horse troops from one part of the empire to another, if necessary.
If not all, then most empires were built similarly. Take Roman, British, etc.

Therefore, the text reminds me of the fight against windmills.

[Snow]

Respect to the author. And the disadvantages are set for you from your own ignorance and from the herd feeling.
Article MINUS!

[Gunxnumx]

In my opinion, the author is likened to Murat Aji. A lot of emotions. Unfortunately, the great steppe empires left few material traces. But this does not mean that they were not.

[Gunxnumx]

In addition, in my opinion, that the steppe inhabitants on the expanses of Eurasia in the pre-Turkic period were typical Caucasoids have long been known. In general, ethnogenesis is a very complex and interesting thing.

[Sirocco]

Quote: Sensatus

And power control over the territories was carried out due to the lightning-fast transfer of horse troops from one part of the empire to another, if necessary.

Are you serious? Lightning fast, how many weeks? I remember my great-grandmother told me how they went as pilgrims to Kiev from the Yekaterinoslav province, I can confuse something, but it seems this way took about 30 days.
A lightning strike is Syria today, with our VKS, from whose actions the terrorists whined, and the Western partners asked for a break to recover.

[Sensatus]

I remember the great-grandmother told

Instead of listening to the great-grandmother and judging by it the logistics of the Tatar-Mongols, you better study history. The same army of the Tatar-Mongols moved almost non-stop. For each warrior there were several horses, which alternated as fatigue.
And you’re talking about pilgrimage here. That is why the Mongols conquered half the world, and not your great-grandmother.

[ver_]

.. even visit Vika at the expense of the Mongols - they are a product of the beginning of the 19th century - in those days they didn’t smell ..

[Sirocco]

Quote: Sensatus

Instead of listening to the great-grandmother and judging by it the logistics of the Tatar-Mongols, you better study history.

You look savvy in history, too much))))))
At least ten horses, who will shoe them for you, where will you take so much metal? Arrow spears, harness, food, or will they meet you with bread and salt, or will they be met ????
Can you even imagine what kind of herd of horses it is, if even 5 thousand people ????

Quote: Sensatus

That is why the Mongols conquered half the world, and not your great-grandmother.

In how my grandmother was telling you)))) Your grandmother didn’t match her, mine went to the Lavra herself, was God-fearing and raised all of them like that, so you’re not a couple, not to my grandmother
Go, conquer the world yourself.)))))

[Mr. Pippers]

Quote: Sirocco

At least ten horses who will shoe them for you,

And what are they, on the stone pavement galloped all the way ?!
Why shoe it on arable land ?!

[aviator65]

Quote: Misters Pippers

Why shoe it on arable land ?!

You can ask professional riders or cavalrymen about this, about "on-field-arable land". And also look at the map, estimate the approximate route of movement of that army - continuous fields and arable land!

[Spnsr]

Quote: Sirocco

What my grandmother was telling you about)))) Your grandmother didn’t match her, mine went to the Lavra herself, she was God-fearing and raised everyone like that, so you’re not a couple not to me not my grandmother laughing

! Really! there are a lot of scorched hystorics who shake with some sort of scribbles, present some crafts, presenting them for artifacts ...
and when you begin to compare their stories with what the ancestors told, they do not allow eyewitness accounts with frenzy and with foam at the mouth ...

[aviator65]

As I understand it, your historical knowledge was obtained from personal conversations with witnesses and eyewitnesses of the described events, and not from different "scribbles", as if they were written or recorded behind them?

[Spnsr]

Quote: aviator65

As I understand it, your historical knowledge was obtained from personal conversations with witnesses and eyewitnesses of the described events, and not from different "scribbles", as if they were written or recorded behind them?

I understand you to me?
no need to clumsy!
from my comments perfectly understandable and what I mean! moreover, what I’m talking about is confirmed by other commentators, for example, about Cossacks

RUSS (3) RU Yesterday, 10:31 ↑
Quote: SpnSr
that the descendants of the army of the horde, this is the Cossacks ...

The most common mistake is to consider that the Cossacks were completely Orthodox. In reality, everything was much more interesting. The bulk of the Cossacks, both Ukrainian and Russian, was certainly Orthodox, but ...
The part of the registry Cossacks consisted of the very real ERZ, which caused a bathhert among the anti-Semites who were not in the register. (more details, w: Jews in the Ukrainian Cossacks);
a considerable number of Cossacks in the Urals were Old Believers who professed pre-reform Orthodoxy, which, in fact, was not encouraged by the authorities, to put it mildly, but they still turned a blind eye to this Cossack fad;
part of the Zaporizhzhya Cossacks professed Arianism, a special unorthodox kind of Christianity, condemned as heresy. Where they got this faith from is not really known - either from the last Crimean Goths, or from the Bulgarians - legends are dark on this score. However, by the eighteenth century there were no Arians among the Cossacks, but there is unconfirmed information that secret Aryan communities remained in the Don and the Caucasus right up to the beginning of the XNUMXth century;
the Tatars-Meshcheryaks and Bashkirs entering the Orenburg army were, of course, Muslims;
the Kalmyks (sic!) entering this very Orenburg army professed, of course, Buddhism. True, then SUDDENLY somewhere everyone disappeared, but this is another matter;
Buddhism, of the same kind (Lamaism) as the Kalmyks professed the Buryats, who were part of the Transbaikal army;
but the Nagaybaks, members of the Orenburg army — the Turkic people, akin to the Tatars and Bashkirs — on the contrary, in the name of fulfilling mutually exclusive paragraphs, were Orthodox.

, but for some reason some with some kind of perverse interpretation! how Mongolian horses jump from Mongolia with love 250 km a day, or even lightning fast!
when you read a story, throw away the extra background, and compare it with other eras, especially closer ones and described more closely and with minimal distortion!
I won’t stress that you read my comments on ..., but I would like to have a reasonable discussion about how the Mongols jumped at lightning speed, led by Genghisides, from whose family the whole of Kazakhstan is, riding Mongolian horses on the steppes of Siberia and the deserts of Central Asia ...

[alicante11]

Instead of listening to the great-grandmother and judging by it the logistics of the Tatar-Mongols, you better study history.

But the story says how you can feed several tens of thousands of horses? For some reason, even in the 19-th century there were problems with this. And if it's ... winter? I understand that Mongol horses eat both moss and reindeer moss from under the snow. But you don’t even get enough reindeer moss on such a herd, which, by the way, is absent in the middle part of Russia.
And also it was necessary to feed also not one ten thousand horsemen themselves. I understand that a Mongol can eat one piece of horse meat, beaten by his own ass about the croup of a horse. But you won’t last so long. Sometimes you need to eat normally.
And still it is necessary to carry battering guns, which were probably heavier than siege mortars, although lighter than the "Big Bertha". It is possible that these machines were assembled on site using wooden parts cut "on the ground", but even in this case the weight of metal parts, any blocks, ropes, will be very significant. And the metal for forging new sabers, arrowheads?
And all this must be taken, and also on horseback, because cars are not expected. So how many horses were supposed to be there and what did they feed them all the same?
That is why, in general, all sorts of general staff there invented, the calculation of supply standards, the construction of supply chains. How many copies were broken for intercepting and protecting communications. Why all this? And Napoleon was stupid that he scattered his army to protect communications so that he no longer had a numerical advantage over Borodin. And it was only necessary to remember the secret of the Mongols, and happiness would be to the conquerors.

[saigon]

In addition to your questions. And what did the siege weapons build on the steppe? Sabers sog? They didn’t use axes, they strained with forests and boards in the steppe. Just like with carpentry. Trifles, and trifles they are important.

[Pissarro]

So the horde turned out to be smarter than Napoleon, it was not going to occupy anything in Russia, its forces would not be physically enough for it. By threatening to use force and using force against violators, it forced the Russian fragmented principalities to pay tribute. That's all. And stupidly sit in a burnt city and think of what other cat or rat to eat, these are European realities that have nothing for the Asian war

By the way, several tens of thousands of horses with cannons, from Moscow to Paris, traveled through unfriendly territory from 1812 to 1815, and somehow did not rest. Why do you think that the khan did not have a service that was responsible for the logistics and feeding of people and horses? The ancient Egyptians already had such services

[Avantageur]

Quote: Pissarro

Why do you think that the khan did not have a service that was responsible for the logistics and feeding of people and horses?

Yeah, it was ... There was also a delivery service for Tajik merchants, which the Doshiraks laid out in yurts ...

 Show / Hide text

[Seal]

The ancient Egyptians already had such services

The charter of the logistics service of the ancient Egyptians, approved by the pharaoh .. by the way, what kind of pharaoh? - to the studio !!!

[Seal]

How wide do you think the forest road on the route from Ryazan to Vladimir in the 13th century?
What is your height of the snowdrifts in the forest in winter on this route?
What is the snow height on the forest road itself?
How often did residential settlements meet on the route from Ryazan to Vladimir in the 13th century?
How large were these settlements?
Did the locals have horses and in what quantity? (from here you can calculate the volume of hay harvested for the winter).
How many millions (or hundreds of thousands?) Of people lived in the Northeast Region (or in the current Central Federal District) in the 13th century?

[Pissarro]

all of the above is not very different from the road between Smolensk and Moscow, which only became crushed in the 18th century, and before that it was just a direction. But at the same time, Russian armies traveled to the West along it, tens of thousands of Poles and Lithuanians, and somehow on the way they managed not to rest and did not eat their horses. Because, like the Mongols, they understood what supplies were and what you didn’t understand. In your view, the army is some kind of crowd of freaks, greedy for robberies, who cannot plan a week ahead that they will eat and their horses. And any trip is planned in advance, and the questions that you are voicing here were decided long before the trip, even in the planning stage, and those responsible for the supply were appointed

[Seal]

Excuse me, are you able to give specific answers to specific questions? Repeat again?

[Pissarro]

Before the construction of railroads, even in the 19th century, logistics did not differ much from 13th century. The same pack animals and carts. And there was no difficulty in transporting thousands of cavalry across Russia, both in their own and in hostile terrain. The Crimean Khan is almost not every year horse-drawn masses traveled to Russia or Lithuania along woodlands, where they had already made cuts and put in prison, it didn’t hinder him much, it slowed down a little, it required a lot of effort for reconnaissance.

There is no difficulty in transferring the cavalry unit to any distance with your marching course, if there were a competent commander and headquarters under him. The Mongols had both of them. The rest is a matter of technology, sit down plan.

To think that when planning a trip, the supply manager is going to feed people and horses for months with feed is cretinism. There are documents from Timur, who, however, 200 years later, clearly planned how much would it cost to cross the steppe thousands of distances with his army.
There are even documents of the ancient Metridates, which had been storing grain for several years, for the company.

I repeat, why do you consider ancient commanders cretins?

[Seal]

The third time I urge you to specifically answer specific questions.

How wide do you think the forest road on the route from Ryazan to Vladimir in the 13th century?
What is your height of the snowdrifts in the forest in winter on this route?
What is the snow height on the forest road itself?
How often do you think there were residential settlements on the route from Ryazan to Vladimir in the 13th century?
What do you think were the size of these settlements?
In your opinion, did the locals have horses and in what quantity? (from here you can calculate the volume of hay harvested for the winter).
In your opinion, how many millions (or hundreds of thousands?) Of people lived in the Northeast Region (or in the current Central Federal District) in the 13th century?

Why, when you are respectfully asked to give a specific answer, your opinion disappears somewhere?

[Pomeranian]

Quote: Pissarro

.An any trip is planned in advance, and the questions that you are voicing here were decided long before the trip, even in the planning stage, and those responsible for the supply were appointed

It’s hard for citizens who have grown up on computer strategies to prove anything. I believe that Subedey was not an outspoken fool, and the crop collected in the summer of 1236 in the north-eastern Russia was taken into account in the formation of the shock army in full.

[Pomeranian]

Nothing that I interfere in a scientific dispute?
1. Judging by the "list" that I saw, "Kolomna winter road" - Minsk highway of the times of the USSR.
2. I don’t know, but walking in the snow of any depth is possible if there is a human resource with snowshoes or skiing. (The second is worse, cling to a worm).
3. The population density was no less than in the 19th century. Did you hear anything about Vladimirskoe Opolye?
4. On 12 km TWO fortified fortifications. Akkurat on the likely advance of the Mongol-Tatar troops. Probably very tight.
5. The main feed for the horse is grain. Any. Sheep and goats are fed with hay. Record for memory, useful.
6. I don’t know, but the fact that the loss of 9-16 of thousands of fighters in the Battle of Lipitska did not play absolutely any impact on the fighting ability of the Vladimir-Suzdal Principality.
7. Question to the opponent: can a horse take away 150 kg of oats in packs or not?

[Seal]

If you decide to intervene, then intervene correctly. First give your specific answers to specific questions, and then ask your own.
I will repeat the questions specifically for you.
How wide do you think the forest road on the route from Ryazan to Vladimir in the 13th century?
What is your height of the snowdrifts in the forest in winter on this route?
What is the snow height on the forest road itself?
How often do you think there were residential settlements on the route from Ryazan to Vladimir in the 13th century?
What do you think were the size of these settlements?
In your opinion, did the locals have horses and in what quantity? (from here you can calculate the volume of hay harvested for the winter).
In your opinion, how many millions (or hundreds of thousands?) Of people lived in the Northeast Region (or in the current Central Federal District) in the 13th century?
And further. If you do not have enough knowledge or arguments, then the most stupid thing to do is try to go over to the personality of your opponent. And even more so determine his age. Or, as others still love - nationality. Fucking you Wang. Actually bad. Take a word.
But since you have crossed. then let me inquire. Do you have any military education? And in what troops did you serve military service?

[Vicbr]

Moreover, several thousand soldiers walked in the winter along the winter steppe with three horses. I wonder what they fed them. Even in the summer after the passage of the first thousand, only dust remains, and the horse does not eat dust.

[Pissarro]

if you don’t believe, Mongolia and northeast of China is the birthplace of oats. From there he went around the world from the second millennium BC. And imagine, the Mongols fed them horses, like hundreds of armies before them, and hundreds of armies after them

[Pomeranian]

Quote: Vicbr

Moreover, several thousand soldiers walked in the winter along the winter steppe with three horses. I wonder what they fed them.

Nothing, do I have a fight?
Rams !! The horse was fed with GRAIN! GRAIN !! A sack of oats for a day or other grain with a supply of a month to take away on a pack horse is not difficult.! Rams !!!
Fu ... let go. Thank you.
Threat. Now calmly, about farming. In conquered Iran, Central Asia, there lived entirely savages engaged in hunting and gathering? And the Volga does not flow from the Middle Russian plain to the Caspian.

[KaPToC]

Well, the nomads harvested grain undoubtedly by Dutch harvesters.

[Pomeranian]

Quote: KaPToC

Well, the nomads harvested grain undoubtedly by Dutch harvesters.

Undoubtedly, they either traded or bought from settled residents. Or taken away. Fdyenko reform, in action ...

[KaPToC]

The conquest of the Mongols began with China? There is one problem, horses do not eat rice. Oops, the great conquest of the world by the Mongols failed at the very beginning.
Your passage about Fursenko - are you talking to yourself?

[saigon]

Small question . And what do you apologize for eating a lot of horses? Grass? so it’s not enough for everyone. This is not a dispute about the Tatar Mongols, but a sarcastic remark. Gentlemen, professional historians lie or are mistaken when speaking of hundreds of thousands of troops. Oh, the zeroes were added to the units, which would be more beautiful, and even fences. Eat horses, eat warriors, Aa everyone needs to eat. But canned goods have not been invented yet, since the Middle Ages. And how to manage the fast march of 100 thousandth troops? Radio is not in nature. Most likely there were many smaller armies.

[Gunxnumx]

I read that the army was moving on a wide front, precisely with the aim of feeding horses. And people were rather unpretentious and fed on a roundabout hunt. By the way, Temirlan in 1389-1391 made several campaigns, through deserted, low-water steppes, against the Golden Horde. It seems to be documented. Karsakpay inscription of Timur is kept in the Hermitage.

[Seal]

I read that the army was moving on a wide front

What does it mean to "move on a wide front" while moving in a forest region, which in the 13th century was the whole of North-Eastern Russia?
Well, for comparison, the degree of forest cover in this region was ... well, like now in the Arkhangelsk region. Just find some vast forest and try to ride in it "wide front" in winter.

[Pomeranian]

Quote: Seal

in the Arkhangelsk region. Just find some vast forest and try horseback riding in it "

What are you! It is necessary to drive archaeologists-forgers who unearthed villages in the Suzdal region with a street length of one and a half kilometers! To drive! Damn, forests and swamps, thiulen said.

[Seal]

Are you able to distinguish the term "forest" from the term "village"? Or did your Fursenko obscure your eyes so that you confuse the village with the forest? And excuse me, you don't confuse yours with a finger yet?

[Pomeranian]

Quote: saigon

And what do you apologize for eating a lot of horses?

Look, urban infantile theorists! CORN!! CORN!! GRAIN !! (may Raymond Richard Martin forgive me) HORSEED Horses! Oats, for example, what, in the ass hay ?? 5 kg of oats per day per horse. Norm.

[Pomeranian]

Quote: saigon

Small question . And what do you apologize for eating a lot of horses? Grass?

CORN!! They ate the grain. Norm 5 kg per head per day. 150 kg per pack horse - for 10 days stock. And there you can rob the city. What is not clear ??

[ruAlex]

The truth is somewhere nearby as always but this, for example, "There were several horses for each warrior" And they were clockwork horses, according to your reasoning, too, apparently with lightning speed on the go, so to speak, I will not go into details, but here is one of the last large-scale horse battles, namely Napoleonic ones. The peasants leaving the partisans left behind scorched ashes, so to speak, scorched earth tactics, no fodder for you, and the French at the beginning ate horses, and then ... And they forgot about any lightning speed. And you say.

[ydjin]

Quote: ruAlex

The truth is somewhere nearby as always but this, for example, "There were several horses for each warrior" And they were clockwork horses, according to your reasoning, too, apparently with lightning speed on the go, so to speak, I will not go into details, but here is one of the last large-scale horse battles, namely Napoleonic ones. The peasants leaving the partisans left behind scorched ashes, so to speak, scorched earth tactics, no fodder for you, and the French at the beginning ate horses, and then ... And they forgot about any lightning speed. And you say.

That's right, and turned into a trash from fr. Cheval (horse). And also in the skiers, when entering the Russian village with the words, -sher ami (dear friend) fr. Asked for a meal!

[Seal]

That's right, and turned into a trash from fr. Cheval (horse). And also in the skiers, when entering the Russian village with the words, -sher ami (dear friend) fr. Asked for a meal!

trash is either waste from the sewing process (flaps, scraps, or things that have become unusable or bored, and prepared for alteration.

Lovo shaomyga was also considered dialectal at the end of the 1845th century, as evidenced, for example, by its placement with a number of derivatives in "Materials for an explanatory regional dictionary of the Vyatka dialect" by N.M. Vasnetsov (1889-XNUMX):
"Sharomyga, Sharomyga. Real. Cheatful; loving to use on someone else's account; deceiver." Sharomyga on, deceive you. - This ball will give nothing. "
Sharomyzhka. Free, not acquired by labor. "He loves to live on a ball."
Sharomyzhka. Nar. Darom; cheating; deception. "It's all right, can't it be like a ball."
Sharomyzhnik. Sharomyga. Operating with gypsy qualities.
To play a ball, vb average To cheat, to deceive for well-known selfish purposes "[Vasnetsov 1907: 348-349].
Judging by the "Inverse Index to the Dictionary of Russian Folk Dialects", not all of these words will be included in this dictionary [Inverse. 2000].
Academician V.V. Vinogradov was interested in the origin of the word sharomyga: only his summary of the polemics in the Voronezh "Philological Notes" of 1889-1890 was preserved in his archive. about the origins of this word without conclusions. This draft material was published in a collection of works by the scientist under the misleading title of the article and edited by N.Yu. Shvedova [Vinogradov 1994: 741].
The first experience of its etymologization, which had nothing to do with the events of 1812, refers to the time of the first lexicographic fixation of the word sharomig, as is still considered not only among amateurs.
The famous Russian orientalist V.V. Grigoriev (1816-1881), who analyzed eastern words from the "Experience of the Regional Great Russian Dictionary", drew attention to the word sharomyga and suggested its non-Russian origin, although not eastern: "Sharamyga. The origin of this word is not at all eastern, but I think it is not superfluous to explain it: this is a spoiled French cher ami. How cher ami acquired the meaning of "cheaters", "a deceiver who loves to receive everything for free" - it will be explained from the customs of the well-known class of women "[Grigoriev 1852: 70].
Etymology V.V. Grigoryeva, it seems, did not receive support, but IN AND. Dahl later in his "Explanatory Dictionary" called the rapprochement of the Russian sheromyg with the French cher ami comic. Unexpectedly recorded by V.I. Dahlem, in a very laconic form, the joke received amplification and became a science-like humorous one signed by I.-k in the comic magazine "Dragonfly" on July 13, 1880, where attention is drawn (in deviation from the common spelling) to the spelling of w instead of z.
http://www.philology.ru/linguistics2/dobrodomov-09b.htm

[Alexey-74]

you are wrong, the level of the conquered states was much higher .... the speed of their (Mongols) movement is not military tactics and strategy. The fact that the Mongols were simple warlike nomads is a fact. But tell me how they managed to conquer China so quickly. Go half the world and conquer all. Movement speed alone is not enough here ....

[Seal]

the speed of their (Mongols) movement is not military tactics and strategy.

And actually what is the speed of "their (Mongols) movement"?
And can the speed of movement of a Mongol be more than the speed of movement of his Mongolian horse?

[Sensatus]

Lightning strike is Syria today, with our videoconferencing

Our VKS in Syria appeared 4 years after the start of the war. The same Mongols, having information from the field, reacted much more quickly. Therefore, lightning speed is not the speed of a single military unit, but the time that elapses from the beginning of the riots to the moment when the army is ready to suppress this mess. And here are the same few weeks - quite a lightning reaction.

[Dewa1s]

by telegraph or satellite they had information from the field?

[Sensatus]

by telegraph or satellite they had information from the field?

Back in 1206, Genghis Khan legalized the service of messengers (Yam). It is sometimes called the postal service. The Yamskoe department was created. It was ordered to inform Genghis Khan and later his successors of each important event as soon as possible.
The whole empire was covered with a network of horse stations, which were located at a distance of 30-60 km. apart along the main caravan routes.
At these stations, couriers succeeded each other. The reports were on the way even at night. For this courier was accompanied by soldiers with torches. Thus, the emperor received reports from places at a distance of ten days' journey per day. Marco Polo, in his book on a trip to Mongolia and China, wrote that about 10 thousand postal horse stations and up to 200 thousand horses at a time were involved in the entire service. Half of the horses grazed, and half were ready.
At that time, there were no analogues of the Mongolian postal service with information transfer speed anywhere in the world.

But in general, before discussing topics and putting cons I recommend that you familiarize yourself with the subject in more detail.

[Sirocco]

Quote: Sensatus

But in general, before discussing topics and putting cons I recommend that you familiarize yourself with the subject in more detail.

Exactly. Meet me. And do not pull by the ears.

[alicante11]

The whole empire was covered with a network of horse stations, which were located at a distance of 30-60 km. apart along the main caravan routes.

The question is, and where did it all go?

Marco Polo wrote that about 10 thousand postal horse stations were involved in the entire service and up to 200 thousand horses at a time. Half of the horses grazed, and half were ready.

Lord, how many horses did they have? After all, this is only pit, and also the army. And how much did it all cost?

At that time, there were no analogues of the Mongolian postal service with information transfer speed anywhere in the world.

Yeah, that’s the trick here too, too implausible if you start to think.

[Oldwiser]

It is very likely that the first-class liar was this "Marco Polo". He sat himself with Tsar-Grad, never went away from the nearest cannabis incense, and composed "science fiction novels."

[saigon]

Marco polo is not serious with him, and the lions and tigers in China are rummaging together.

[KaPToC]

You realize that your Mongolian postal service didn’t leave a single document based on the results of its activity, it wasn’t in nature, it’s another invention.

[Seal]

But in general, before discussing topics and putting cons I recommend that you familiarize yourself with the subject in more detail.

And what does he get to know? You did not give a link to the resource where the "Charter of the Mongolian-Yamskaya post" is posted from where you apparently draw your inexhaustible knowledge of the subject. By the way, was the charter approved by Genghis Khan himself or by his deputy?
And the breed of "pit horses", which is not indicated in the Charter?

[Rivares]

Quote: Sensatus

Marco Polo, in his book on a trip to Mongolia and China, wrote that about 10 thousand postal horse stations and up to 200 thousand horses at a time were involved in the entire service.

He also described Genghis Khan as a fair-haired European.

[aviator65]

And with the Mongols, how were things? What language were written?
As for the testimonies of Marco Polo, then he has miracles there and are better described! Only for some reason neither about tea (Chinese) nor about hieroglyphs (Chinese) is mentioned anywhere.

[Pomeranian]

Quote: aviator65

And with the Mongols, how were things? What language were written?

On whatever. Languages ​​may be different, but one written language.

[aviator65]

Quote: Pomoryanin

On whatever. Languages ​​may be different, but one written language.

Wow! English, German, Russian, Chinese, Korean, Japanese - we write everything the same way! And Genghis Khan, apparently, was a polyglot or had an army of translators with diplomas from Patrice Lumuba.

[Pomeranian]

Quote: aviator65

Wow! English, German, Russian, Chinese, Korean, Japanese - we write everything the same way! And Genghis Khan, apparently, was a polyglot or had an army of translators with diplomas from Patrice Lumuba.

Strange you get some irony. I wonder if the British, Koreans or residents of Bombay without a graduate diploma from Lumbumbat will understand the image below?

[aviator65]

I get it. The Mongols used pentagrams ... and emoticons; Then, of course, everyone has one written language!

[Pomeranian]

Quote: aviator65

I get it. The Mongols used pentagrams ... and emoticons;

Sorry if I was rude. Tired of idiots discussing this topic. Spring exacerbation in a certain category of citizens is evident. Do not tell me the character, if not a stylized pictogram, then what?

[Pomeranian]

Quote: Sensatus

But in general, before discussing topics and putting cons I recommend that you familiarize yourself with the subject in more detail.

I gave you a plus, but I get the impression that a shkolota is participating in the discussion: "Fursenkov's nest chicks" or "calibers" of all stripes and shades that have become bronzed to nowhere.

[Seal]

Back in 1206, Genghis Khan legalized the service of messengers (Yam). It is sometimes called the postal service. The Yamskoe department was created. It was ordered to inform Genghis Khan and later his successors of each important event as soon as possible.

Genghis Khan's decree "On the formation of the Messenger Service" - into the studio!
Genghis Khan's decree "On the creation of the Yamsky Department" - into the studio!
Genghis Khan's decree "On information support for me and my successors" - to the studio!

[Seal]

From the work "Was there a boy"

It is said that the Yamsk service (i.e., the system of postal stations with replaceable horses) was brought to Russia by the Mongols. However, the so-called "Yaman chase" has existed in our penises since time immemorial. We are no longer talking about the fact that the famous highway connecting the Saray-on-Volga and the legendary Karakorum suddenly falls into oblivion. After the death of Batu, the great empire, spread half the world, wonderfully melts away like loose snow under the rays of the spring sun. At the same time, it was found in no less surprising way that the mailing system was functioning properly in Russia long before the advent of the notorious Mongols. For example, the chronicle reports how Princess Olga started a trip to Novgorod in 947, during which she not only cleaned the roads and arranged the bridges across the Dnieper and Desna, but also became very concerned about the state of the so-called carts.
What is the cart and what is it for? This thing was widespread in the Middle Ages and was a kind of conscription, the burdens of which placed a heavy burden on the shoulders of the local population. Every messenger, vested with special powers, had every right to receive fresh horses, food and fodder in the city or village of any principality and continue his journey. River crossings also did not cost him a penny - the treasury paid for everything. The duty to maintain the wagon in good condition (to repair roads, bridges, crossings, etc.) rested with the local authorities, which, of course, were not enthusiastic about this. Chronicles recorded outbreaks of discontent among townspeople and villagers about how far the “wagon duty” had fallen from.
Whatever it was, but by the end of the X century. Yamsk service in Russia has become ubiquitous. In 1021, the equestrian squad of Yaroslav the Wise, pursuing the Polotsk prince Bryachislav, overcame about 800 km in a week, which automatically assumes not only the presence of roads, but roads that are properly equipped. In 1097, the blinded prince Vasilk Rostislavich was delivered from Kiev to Vladimir-Volynsky. The chronicler specifically emphasizes that the November roads were far from a fountain: they traveled "along an uneven path." But even the “uneven path” did not prevent to overcome the 500 km train convoy in six days. Incidentally, riding oduvukon was not an invention of the Tatars either. In Vladimir Monomakh's “Teaching to Children” we read: “Vseslav Smolensk burned, and I rushed off with Chernigov riding with underwater horses.” Submarine horses are nothing more than spare horses that allow the rider to travel long distances: on the march he changes from a tired horse to a fresh one and thereby runs twice as long a path.
But starting from the XI century. inns are already operating at full speed on Russian routes, and local residents, cursing “wagon duty” as usual, make an exception for ferry crossings, since this service was paid, and part of the money fell into the pocket of the “wagoners”. In short: the Yamsk service in Russia existed a long time ago, coped well with its duties and arose long before the notorious Mongol invasion.

[Pomeranian]

Quote: Dewa1s

by telegraph or satellite they had information from the field?

Near Plevna in 1878, satellite phones refused. Apparently, that's why they fussed for so long.

[varov14]

Mongoloid chtoli, resentment gnaws that modern science on genetics is beginning to debunk myths.

[starshina wmf]

and you seem to gnaw at resentment. that some wild barbarians from Asia defeated half of Europe and it wasn’t your ancestors. The Batu army that came to Russia consisted of the peoples of Central Asia and the same subjugated principalities. The Mongols were only commanders and guards. Approximately 4 thousand people. And they have discipline was iron. Yes and why if there were 3 centuries of the Horde, everyone should be half-blood. The Horde simply forced to pay tribute and went to the steppes. First the princes were elders and that's all. As it is written in one komment. What was the brothel there or what? Let's then remember about 2 millions of Germans, because it wasn’t that, but in geyropov Believe what happened.

[Xsanchez]

Historians have already proved that history was "written" (i.e. distorted) by one of the founders of "modern history" Scalliger Joseph. He wrote it by order of the Pope, and Jesuit monks helped him in this dark matter. Historical records and works scholars contradicting this newly conceived work called "Chronology" were very quickly and thoroughly destroyed (burned and anathematized). This period in history is known as the "reformation"
The 17th century, in which the whole history until the 17th century was shamelessly distorted. Scientists historically confront the falsification of history. Example: no Troy fraudster and thief Schliemann dug up, a settlement 500 meters in diameter could not have a population of more than 50 thousand inhabitants (no water supply or sewage , neither fortification, nor the remains of high walls, nor even roads). The same crap was invented about the Mongols. Even they could lie more plausibly, as you can believe that the 50 thousandth army under its own power, with herds of horses and sheep, could go almost 6000 km in the taiga, where even now with no roads, food net.Sovremennaya army throw 50 people over a distance of 000 km is not able! And so, by the way, always deceiving.

[Turkir]

The version of the infamous Fomenko has nothing to do with logic.

[saigon]

Well, they didn’t seem to go through the taiga. I'm talking about the Mongols, but the army of Kolchak then Omsk to Irkutsk was not going by rail. And they went in the winter and the frosts were fierce. Such are the things, such an ice trip in Siberian.

[Seal]

the Kolchak’s army then Omsk went to Irkutsk and not by rail

Yes, actually Kolchak’s army was retreating just by rail. And even on trains. And Kolchak himself and all the gold - it rode in the cars. Yes, there were rearguard units that walked part of the way, since they walked in conditions when the whole army had already left and therefore the red partisans felt at ease — either they would take the paths apart, then the locomotives would break, then they would simply arrange an ambush ..

[Pissarro]

They could even lie more believable, as one can believe that the 50 thousandth army, under its own power, with herds of horses and sheep, could go almost 6000 km through the taiga, where even now there are no roads, there is no food

The south of Siberia and the north of Kazakhstan is not the taiga, but the steppe. Even for ancient commanders to calculate how much resources it takes to move an army of a certain number to a certain distance was not a big task, this is the arithmetic of a class so third. How much a horse eats, how many people, how many people and horses, how much they walk in a day with a walking step, what is the terrain, are there and what is the enemy in this area. Ancient Chinese Sun Tzu already left us this arithmetic

. The modern army is not able to transfer 50 people to a distance of 000 km

The armies of the world are doing just that in exercises, and they are putting it into practice. During what period did the fortieth army enter Afghanistan, during what period was Czechoslovakia occupied? talk about the days

[KaPToC]

I want to disappoint you, modern armies move long distances by rail or by ship. No modern army is capable of marching on its wheels without external supplies of six thousand kilometers.

[Pissarro]

where did you get that the horde had no supply? Any army has had convoys since ancient times

At the expense of railways and ships. The 40th army, one hundred thousand people entered Afghanistan. There are no railways and seas in Afghanistan, the supply was mainly carried out on wheels.

[Seal]

The 40th army, one hundred thousand people, entered Afghanistan

But on our side of the border (to the gathering place), the army personnel were delivered by rail or by air. And subsequently, airfields in Afghanistan operated with a triple load.

[Pomeranian]

Quote: Pissarro

Any army has had convoys since ancient times

Well, now they will start to kick you, because in many people's heads the picture is worth: a cross-eyed ragged man with a saber, with three horses, eating raw horse meat. Meanwhile, horses were digging grass out from under a three-meter snowdrift ...) Of course they were. Batu even had a special engineering tumen, engaged in various sapper and not very jobs. The boss was Temuther Temnik.

[Seal]

Batu even had a special engineering tumen, engaged in various sapper and not very jobs. The boss was Temuther Temnik.

Excuse me, well, share from what such a bottomless well do you all draw everything and draw your historical fantasies? Moreover such super specific?

[Pomeranian]

Quote: Seal

Excuse me, well, share from what such a bottomless well do you all draw everything and draw your historical fantasies?

I am smart and live a long time. But Google is omnipotent to help you if you can’t get to the library or archives.

[Seal]

I am smart and live a long time.

Oh, excuse me, Mr. Everlasting w ... d, did not recognize. Well, how was Genghis Khan doing there when you last saw him? And by the way, where did your rendezvous take place with him?

[aviator65]

Quote: Pissarro

The south of Siberia and the north of Kazakhstan is not the taiga, but the steppe.

But what about the fact that a thousand years ago the taiga was also denser and located south, because it was not cut down as intensively as over the past 200 years, and the steppe also had not yet advanced so far north. And the rivers were much more full.

[Alexey-74]

plus .... falsification is putting it mildly, unfortunately we lost a huge amount of documents during the dominance of the Germans in the Academy of Sciences. Why Lomonosov was very much outraged by everything that they presented as "the history of Russia" ...

[aviator65]

Quote: Xsanchez

Historical records, and the works of scholars contradicting this newly conceived work called "Chronology", were very quickly and thoroughly destroyed (burned and anathematized). This period in history is known as the "Reformation"
17th century, in which the whole history until the 17th century was shamelessly distorted

By the way, this falsification also played into the hands of our churchmen. Rather than admitting that Orthodox Christians - princes in their civil strife with great pleasure exterminated their own fellow believers, and not sparing either Orthodox shrines or Orthodox clergy, it is better to blame everything on "infidel conquerors", yes "filthy yoke."

[Mr. Pippers]

Quote: Sensatus

Our VKS in Syria appeared 4 years after the start of the war. The same Mongols, having information from the field, reacted much more quickly.

I will upset you, these "4 years" were not reacted by the military - the military would have had a couple of minutes to react

[Alexey-74]

how do you worry about the Mongols ....

[Rorabek]

Also, the excellent cavalry of the Mongols, the presence of several swing horses and the absolute unpretentiousness in the campaign made it possible for the Mongol to make transitions dizzying in speed. 1000 kilometers per week was the usual pace (the European army usually traveled 150-200 kilometers per week), and with some dexterity, advanced units could cover up to 200-250 kilometers per day. Thus, a lot of enemy cities were taken by surprise, and their foot troops disastrously did not have time.

[KaPToC]

Go camping for a week, for a thousand kilometers, you will immediately understand how you are mistaken. Take an interest in driving regulations for equestrian units and leisure standards for horses.

[starshina wmf]

The steppes wandered their whole life to gather a kibitka for them in 15 minutes like 2 fingers. Moreover, women gathered. They moved forward in detachments. In the detachments, basically all of their own, from someone else’s kind, were not allowed.

[KaPToC]

A classic delusion, nomads roamed within the very limited limits of their territory.

[aviator65]

Quote: Rorabek

Also, the excellent cavalry of the Mongols, the presence of several swing horses and the absolute unpretentiousness in the campaign made it possible for the Mongol to make transitions dizzying in speed.

As the saying goes "it was smooth on paper ..." Do you know the continuation?
One gets the impression that these are not nomadic warriors, but some kind of terminators, just "universal soldiers", solid Schwarzeneggers with vandams! They require neither sleep, nor rest, nor food, and at the same time they are absolutely not killed! As 50 - 100 - 150 thousand set out on the campaign, they did not lose a single one for the entire journey from China to Europe. Cavalry is, of course, good for the steppes and wide fields. But what about in the forests of the Russian central zone, somewhere near Vladimir, but near the walls of the same Moscow of the XIII century? The forests were denser then than they are now, and the roads are already.

[Seal]

Are you at least approximately aware of the tactical and technical data of the Mongolian horses? Would you like to look into the Great Soviet. Encyclopedia? Or read a smart book about the horses of S.M. Budenny?

[aviator65]

Horses are good! But I am more interested in the TTD of their riders. Or did the horses themselves take the cities themselves?

[Vadim42]

I support, to Syria almost twice as fast as from the Far East to Moscow. The road was at the beginning of winter, before a lot of snow.

[Mr. Pipper]

Quote: Sensatus

The author refutes the myth that only the Mongols lived in the Golden Horde. I’m wondering where he got this myth from.

I explain - this is an old method of "writing alternatives" - they come up with some arguments and assertions, attribute these assertions to official science (although it has never stated anything like that!) And then they refute these arguments and slip their game under the "refutation" weak brain of "reading alternatives"!

[novel66]

I am a reading alternativeist, I don’t think my brain is weak, I’m used to trust logic and expediency.

[Mr. Pippers]

Quote: novel xnumx

used to trust logic and expediency.

It's cool, but I will disappoint you - this world is not cognizable by logic at all, it is limited and the vast majority of logical conclusions always turn out to be erroneous.
This is all because (without going into complex terms) logic is a sign of the consciousness of a living creature, not its intelligence!
Therefore, trust the scientific method and facts - that is, official science and its conclusions - this is more correct.

[saigon]

Official History has a distant relation to science so blah, and for the sake of the moment or ruler, the facts of history change just like the color of a chameleon.

[varov14]

Lightning fast through Siberia on the road, this is something, again, it turns out to be genetically inconsistent with genetics.

[ver_]

..this myth came from Soviet historians who were translating ancient Chinese scrolls written in hieroglyphs, which had not been used in China for a long time (dead) and which described news coming with caravans from Europe in the 12-13th century .. For which they received state awards and ranks .., but they modestly kept silent about the fact that Genghis Khan had a large fleet ...

[Oldwiser]

Quote: ver_

Genghis Khan had a large fleet ...

Let me be curious - on what sea (s) did this "Genghis Khan's large fleet" sail? To Genoa and Venice? Or (why not waste time on trifles) - from China to the Filipinas?

[Turkir]

Oh, how many wonderful revelations .. Genghis Khan’s large fleet was based in Sevastopol .. one can also assume Sakhalin or Japan.
OldWiser, our "opponents" can read, I can't understand the meaning of what is written.
I already put the minuses of those commentators to whom I, for interest in history, put the pluses. Two fleets, you can write and three fleets. What's the difference? Yes, and the authorities are appropriate, such as Akunin.
Mythical thinking does not know about the existence of scientific thinking. At school they are not told this. The Russian philosopher Losev helped me understand this phenomenon with his wonderful book "Dialectics of Myth."
Logic, dialectics is not included in the conceptual apparatus of mythical thinking, it has its own laws.

[Oldwiser]

Quote: Turkir

conceptual apparatus of mythical thinking, it has its own laws

I agree with you, dear <TurKir> (Turkish king?) - for

I believe because it is absurd

[Oldwiser]

Quote: Turkir

conceptual apparatus of mythical thinking, it has its own laws

I agree with you, dear <TurKir> (Turkish king?) - for

I believe because it is absurd

[saigon]

Well, it seems they say about the landing in the land of samurai. And the samurai still won with the help of the divine wind. But it is interesting if 10 thousand Mongols or Huns or other Asian nomads landed in Japan. How long would glorious samurai last with their battle tactics against a cohesive and most importantly disciplined nomad army?

[Seal]

How long would glorious samurai last with their battle tactics against a cohesive and most importantly disciplined nomad army?

And where did these close-knit and most disciplined nomadic armies go in a historically more reliable, that is, in the period closest to us? Nomads, for example, in the 18th century was even higher than the roof .. well, where in the 18th century are the close-knit and most disciplined armies of these nomads?

[Alexey-74]

according to the official history of Russia (which, by the way, is taught in the 6th grade), the Mongols had ships captured from the Chinese with their help, they wanted to land in Japan, but a raging storm sank the ships and Japan was saved ... according to the 6th grade history, the Japanese later nicknamed this saving wind saved them from the invasion of -kamikaze ... like that ... It seems that the Mongols were pulled by their ears to conquest throughout Eurasia ... only the Mongols themselves for some reason do not know anything about this ..... ( rather, they didn’t know until they were told about Timujin), but this is about om says, if the ethnic group is not even the oral traditions, what is wrong here ...

[Balagan]

The hieroglyphs that are dead in China today were used thousands of years before Genghis Khan. And those that were written recently - in the last fifteen hundred years - so they are still used, with the exception of individual reforms. Reformed characters are well known to specialists, but simply translators just look through the dictionaries.
And the fleet of Temuchin (the uncle who worked as Genghis Khan in 1206-1227) was so-so. Kublai really had a fleet.

[Fox]

Quote: Sensatus

And power control over the territories was carried out due to the lightning-fast transfer of horse troops

in my family the Cossacks were ... he himself rode a horse ... try, you are our lightning fast
a reference to Gumilyov ... was he there? did he see everything and participated?

[Seal]

And power control over the territories was carried out due to the lightning-fast transfer of horse troops from one part of the empire to another, if necessary.

Name the breed of "lightning" horses.

[Alexey-74]

according to Gumelev, the Mongols are the backbone of the army of Temujin, Batu and others .... but the conquered territories require constant monitoring and no matter how fast the Mongols at that time they had resources (especially human - in the pure form of the Mongols) to hold a huge empire in obedience ... a lot of incomprehensible, that it was, but in a different way .....

[Penzuck]

Quote: Alexey-74

according to Gumelev, the Mongols are the backbone of the army of Temujin, Batu and others .... but the conquered territories require constant monitoring and no matter how fast the Mongols at that time they had resources (especially human - in the pure form of the Mongols) to hold a huge empire in obedience ... a lot of incomprehensible, that it was, but in a different way .....

Carrot and stick.

[RUSS]

Quote: Nikolai S.

Why, if the Polovtsy-Turks,

Strange, but the myth of the “truly Aryan” appearance of the steppes who inhabited the Wild Field in the XNUMXth – XNUMXth centuries stubbornly roams the pages of popular literature. “There is evidence,” writes S. A. Pletneva in the book “Disappeared Peoples,” “testifying that the Polovtsy were mostly fair-haired and blue-eyed. From here, as if, the Russian name came to be - "sex", that is, light, like sex - straw. "

It’s easy to write to a desk researcher! First, let's start with the fact that “sex” and “straw” are far from the same thing. It is enough to go to the peasants in the village - they distinguish them well. Straw is the dried stalks of rye or wheat - long, bright, beautiful. It is suitable both for laying cattle and for the roof for huts. But sex is not without reason a synonym for the word "rubbish." Polov, as Vladimir Dahl writes, “is a wallpaper from threshing, a broken husk.” It is rather grayish and dirty in color. In size - a little longer than the nail. And it doesn’t look like straw at all!

So if the Polovtsy were named after the sexes, then by no means for the ceremonial appearance. The Franciscan monk Guillaume de Rubruck, who traveled around the Black Sea steppes in 1253, unlike modern experts on ancient nomads, saw them personally. He clearly did not like the Polovtsy: “Even when we were sitting under our wagons for the sake of the shade, since there was intense heat there at the time, they pestered us so annoyingly that they crushed us, wanting to examine our things.”

Rubruk did not notice anything unusual in the appearance of these annoying people. Rather, they were struck by their hygiene habits, which were completely shameless: “If they had a desire to empty their stomachs, they did not move away from us as much as you can throw a bean grain; not only that, they made their sewage next to us in a mutual conversation "... Well, cattle, and nothing more! And not a word about "fair-haired" and "blue-eyed ™."

Meanwhile, Rubruk was not just the ambassador of the French king Louis Saint, but also a wonderful, speaking in modern, “journalist”. He recorded all the unusual, amazing facts that he managed to meet on the way. Having visited the Goths who lived on the southern coast of Crimea, he immediately noted that there were “a lot of them” and that their language was German. When he got to the Tatars, he carefully described their appearance in the chapter “On the Shaving of Men and the Dress of Women”: “All women are surprisingly obese; and one in which

[Turkir]

An interesting note about sex. About Pletneva, I can add that she is aggressive towards her opponents, categorical in her judgments, an ardent "Norman".
-----
About the "Polovtsy", they are also Kypchaks. This is a very contradictory information that still requires deep research. Then they, according to the definition of the "Mongols," "our grooms", for whom the Russian princes stood up and thanks to the same Polovtsy lost the battle despite the superiority of forces. Then they suddenly become allies of Batu Khan and the basis of his army, i.e. our rulers. The "Polovtsian" question is very important for this period of history, but so far there is no reason to believe that it has been finally settled.

[Pomeranian]

Quote: RUSS

Strange, but the myth of the “truly Aryan” appearance of the steppes who inhabited the Wild Field in the 11th – 13th centuries stubbornly roams the pages of popular literature.

In my opinion - the best comment on this topic.

[Gorinich]

There is an assumption that the Polovtsians are tribes engaged in "fishing" (raids and robberies). I cannot judge how true it is, but joint marriages are not uncommon between Polovtsy and Rusichs (sources indicate this). By the way, I still remember that announcement on TV when they said that "The Tale of Igor's Regiment" may have been written by a captured Polovtsian ...

[Turkir]

By the way, I still remember that announcement on TV when they said that "The Tale of Igor's Regiment" may have been written by a captured Polovtsian ...

Oh, "Russian" historians will tell you a lot, for example, that Russians are not Russians, and so on. Television is certainly a source of knowledge for a person interested in their history. Foreign TV is best suited for this.
------
And reading books is long and boring, there are a lot of "bukaff". For those who still want to know what and for whom the "Word about ..." was written, I advise you to read the book "The Golden Word of Russia". A good start for lovers of the Russian language and their history.
"..they have tension, they open up, .."
More than 800 years have passed, but everything is clear. What was the name of this language?

[Gorinich]

Actually, this message flashed back under the USSR, but it was only once and more than that was not remembered. You can assume that I was not sober that day. True, the question about the author will still remain.

[Xsanchez]

Moreover, Russian princes often married and married their daughters to Polovtsian khans. By the way, when, much later, New Russia was formed on the territory of the Wild Field, it was little populated, but not depopulated!

[andj61]

Quote: Nikolai S.

Filthy - not a curse - it's just unchristian.

Actually, many linguists consider the words "plow", "arable land", "plowman" and "" to be related.
That, supposedly, initially plowing-panging meant working — and only! Grazing cattle is also work. If the farmers had already distinguished their military class, and they fought, mainly (with the exception of absolutely critical cases), they were the ones, then almost everything was fought with the nomads, that is, workers or filthy. So it’s hardly unchristian - rather, just nomads. Moreover, nomads were called filthy even before the universal adoption and rooting of Christianity in Russia. And after that, the mass of nomads was also Christians, though mostly of the Nestorian sense.

[Turkir]

Moreover, nomads were called filthy even before the universal adoption and rooting of Christianity in Russia.

This is a true and subtle remark, which refutes all the evidence made by linguists. They love to fence the garden from scratch.
This observation also refutes those linguists who derive this word from the Latin "paganus". I stopped at your comment when I wanted to make the same argument about which you wrote before me. It is very strange that you yourself did not notice this contradiction and the weakness and far-fetchedness of linguistic "arguments".
"To work" in the old sounding remained in the Ukrainian dialect: "turbovati", from the word "tour".

[Mr. Pipper]

Quote: Nikolai S.

History is a subject such that the more you know, the more questions

Indeed - the less you know, the better you sleep - everyone urgently needs to pray, fast and read Fomenko and Samsonov about millennia of the glorious history of Raseyushki!

[aviator65]

Quote: Mister Pipper

Everyone urgently pray, fast and read Fomenko and Samsonov about the millennia of the glorious history of Raseyushka!

Do not want to - do not read. You are more comfortable with a miserable, truncated story - stay with your own.

[Spnsr]

Quote: Mister Pipper

millennia of the glorious history of the Raseyushka!

and what is so offensive about the Motherland then?

[g1v2]

The distribution of haplogroups in Eurasia shows quite clearly about everything. We see the spread of the r1a group, which is characterized by the Slavs and see its borders. The western border of the Slavic haplogroup runs approximately along the border of the old GDR and the FRG, i.e., along the border of the lands of the Western Slavs and Celtic tribes with the haplogroup r1b (Berlin is a Slavic city if that ) The northern border is approximately the Leningrad region, where there is a mixture with the Finno-Finnish haplogroup N1C. The south is the border of Kazakhstan, and then comes the powerful center of the Slavic haplogroup in Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan with branches in Pakistan and northern India. In the northern regions of India, the haplogroup R1A is represented only among the higher caste, it could not have originated in India - most likely the conquerors brought it. Between the two main parts of the Slavic haplogroup in Eastern Europe and Central Asia there is Kazakhstan, populated mainly by the Mongolian haplogroup c3.
The result is simple - for several thousand years, pre-Slavic tribes with haplogroup R1A came from Central Asia and assimilated the natives with haplogroup i2 and they walked until they clashed with the Balts and other Finno-Ugric tribes with haplogroup n1c. Part of this remained in Central Asia, part went to the forests, and part wandered in the steppes - the Pechenegs and Polovtsy. That is why the Russian princes with them so closely contacted and mixed the clans - they still remembered that they were kindred peoples. Then the Mongols came and tearing this territory in half, moving their tribes to the territory of Kazakhstan, and then they drove the conquered and ousted tribes of the Polovtsy and other steppe-related peoples to the Slavs, while the Mongols themselves only commanded, and the Batumen Tatyns already consisted of Uzbeks, Polovtsy and etc., which already went to the Russian principalities and to Europe and which were called Tatars by the name of the tribe destroyed by Genghis, whose name he extended to the conquered nomadic peoples. So we get that the Mongol tribes left their haplogroup only in the territory of Kazakhstan and part of Siberia.
The fact that the Kirghiz are much more similar to the neighbors of the Kazakhs, despair and have different blood is explained by the habitat - hereditary signs due to the habitat. For example, one of the Cameroonian tribes has a Celtic haplogroup, while ordinary Negroes seem to be. Habitat.
At the same time, among the Serbs, the Slavic haplogroup is much weaker than that of the Kirghiz, for example, but they are Slavs by culture, and not by blood. Turkic peoples are also characterized by a common culture and religion, and not by blood, and may include peoples with different roots.
If specifically in Russian, then we arose as a result of a tribal union of three Ugrofin peoples (Chud, Meria and all) and two more numerous Slavic (Krivichi and Ilmen Slovenes). Later, as the spread went south, the Slavic haplogroup became more common.

[figwam]

And such an opinion.

[g1v2]

The Battle of Kulikovo is already a much later moment. At that time, both the Russian principalities and the Golden Horde were parts of a single feudal state. The feudal society has its own laws and nationality does not play any role - all solve only dynastic issues. Mamai was not a Chingizid, which means Dmitry Donskoy of the Rurikovich clan, who was a prince (an analogue of the West European duke) and whose clan was more senior (had a golden paizu) than Mamaia, could completely not recognize his authority and give a hat. When Chingizid Tokhtamysh came to Russia after that, he exponentially burned Moscow, accusing that Dmitry Donskoy had been rat rat taxes for 10 years without paying him or Mamaia. At the same time, all the princes who were in alliance with Donskoy on Kulikovsky Field ran away, since Tokhtamysh, being a royal family, had the right under the then laws to deal with a vassal, albeit as senior as Dmitry Donskoy. Moreover, Donskoy after that went to negotiate with Tokhtamysh, recognizing him as the ruler of a state-type - like, he beat the usurper for the sake of the real Tsar. In general, the parties decided that the burning of Moscow was compensation for the non-payment of dough for 10 years.
Feudal society and national have different laws. And the battle on the Kulikovo field, according to the then laws, was an element of the civil war. It was not a battle of the Russians for liberation, but the dismantling of the vassal prince from a high-ranking Rurikovich clan with the impudent upstart Mamai from a lower clan who wanted to take tribute from him. Then Tokhtamysh came from the royal family of Genghisides, whom Mom had beaten before and established his ass on the throne of the Golden Horde.

[Spnsr]

Quote: g1v2

Tokhtamysh being a royal family, according to the then laws, had the right to deal with a vassal, albeit as senior as Dmitry Donskoy

for which then, twice as much I received a tinsel from Emir Timur !!! and so ingloriously ended his days !!! who also plundered part of his land

[g1v2]

Well, Timur helped Tokhtamysh in the struggle for the throne of the Golden Horde, and then he became the ruler of the Golden Horde forgot and forgot who helped him. Timur became related to the Genghisides by marrying Saray-mulk khanim from the genus of Genghisides and formally got the right to claim power. In addition, he was the ruler of the Chagatai ulus, and Tokhtamysh with his help became the ruler of the Juchi ulus (Golden Horde). That is, they were already at war as rulers of neighboring states. Moreover, Timur did not try to conquer the ulus - he clearly punished the treacherous Tokhtamysh, and, at the same time, redirected trade flows.

[Spnsr]

Quote: g1v2

Moreover, Timur did not try to conquer the ulus - he clearly punished the treacherous Tokhtamysh

quite logical!
but who is this?

Quote: g1v2

Genghiside

?
and this, Jochi ulus, is it a golden horde? and what other hordes were there? and what is a horde?

[g1v2]

Well, it’s better then to read the literature after all, if the topic is of interest, but if in a nutshell. Already in the 13th century, the Mongol state fell into uluses led by the descendants of Genghis Khan. Feudal fragmentation in Mongolian. China seceded, led by the grandson of Genghis Khan Khubilai, and then there was a split into several independent uluses. The largest are the Juchi ulus - it is the Golden Horde (all that is west of the Aral Sea), the Chagatai ulus (approximately Kyrgyzstan, western China and part of Tajikistan) and the state of the Hulaguids (Iran, part of Asia Minor, the Caucasus and neighboring lands). In general, the Russian lands were vassals of the Jochi ulus - he is also a golden horde.

[Spnsr]

Quote: g1v2

Well, it’s better then to read literature

as I understand it, Genghisides is in Russian, a descendant of the royal family? if so, then why not speak from the khanate, namely chindgizid?

[Seal]

as I understand it, Genghisides is in Russian, a descendant of the royal family? if so, then why not speak from the khanate, namely chindgizid?

Apparently they want to be known as smart. In general, there were thousands of Genghis Khan. Any khan that is east of another khan is for a more western khan - Shagys-Khan (Genghis Khan).
And the western khan himself for his eastern neighbor is Batys-Khan (Batu-Khan, Batu).

[Spnsr]

Quote: Seal

as I understand it, Genghisides is in Russian, a descendant of the royal family? if so, then why not speak from the khanate, namely chindgizid?

Apparently they want to be known as smart. In general, there were thousands of Genghis Khan. Any khan that is east of another khan is for a more western khan - Shagys-Khan (Genghis Khan).
And the western khan himself for his eastern neighbor is Batys-Khan (Batu-Khan, Batu).

here is another interpretation of the story outlined Batys Khan (Batu Khan, Batu) and it turns out VATICAN or, well, shorter west VATICAN
and they urinated west and east for centuries, then again bull is planned

[Seal]

If you personally did not know something, then why shout about it so loudly?

". Let’s take the Turks, for example, the Kazakhs, since they seem to be there and if, what, they’ll correct them, the orientation toward sunrise and sunset is taken as the basis for orientation in space. In the Kazakh language, sunrise is shygys, sunset is batys. Hence the East-Shygys, and the West-Batys. The main holy direction of the Turks (Kazakhs) was and remains the "East".
If you face east, then on the right (in the Kazakh language “right side” - “he”) will be Ontustik-South, and on the left (in the Kazakh language - “sol”), respectively, Soltustik-North. In this regard, everything located to the west of the steppe for the Kazakhs had the prefix "batu", and to the east - "shygys." Hence, the ruler of any western from the habitat of the Turks (Kazakhs) was called Batu-Khan (Batu). And the one who ruled east - well, for example, China - was Shygys Khan (in our pronunciation, Genghis Khan). That is, all of these Batu, Batu, Batys, and Shagysy (Genghis) could be (and were, after all, the West is full of all sorts of “Karls”) the names of both specific people and common names for all khans-rulers of these areas and territories. By the way, Genghis Khan is simply any “Solar Khan” or “Eastern Khan” and in the language of a number of Volga non-Turkic peoples. But apparently, the Volga peoples still nevertheless adopted this term, well, for example, among the Tatars.

[KaPToC]

This zhezh is so convenient for the West to issue a crusade against the Russians for the Mongol-Tatar invasion from the east.

[KaPToC]

Batys is not Baty, but Shagys is not Genghis
And Nevsky is not a Prussian, but a real Rusak.

[g1v2]

Genghisides means that he is from the descendants of Genghis Khan. That is, it was the derivation of the genealogy from Genghis Khan that allowed him to claim power. That is, it is precisely the royal dynasty, whose representatives ruled in the state into which the state of the Mongols fell apart. As in the Russian principalities ruled Rurikovich - the descendants of Rurik or the Habsburg dynasty in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. And when one of the branches of the Rurikovich was stopped, then as a rule the princedom was occupied by a prince from another branch of the Rurikovich. The princely dynasty however. After declaring himself Ivan the Terrible king in 1547, she became a royal dynasty. Considering that in those days they bred actively, even now it is quite possible to find a descendant of Rurik. When American researchers tried to determine the haplogroup of Rurik’s descendants, for example, about a dozen representatives of the genera who derived their genealogy from Rurik were examined. Tsch, I think that the descendants of Genghis Khan runs even more around the world.

[Seal]

Genghis Khan

Which Genghis Khan? There were thousands of them !!! Again. Shagys Khan, or in our pronunciation, Genghis Khan, is any Khan living east of the place where the observer stands.
But Batys Khan (Batu, Batu Khan) is any khan living west of the place where the observer stands.
If the observer moves west, then the khan who was Batys Khan yesterday for the observer (since he was west of the observation point) today has become Shagys-Khanom, since he has become east of the observation point.
And for Europe, they are all exclusively Shagys-khans (Genghis-khans). Therefore, it was necessary to mold from the western khans (batys-khans) a certain "grandson of Genghis Khan" - Baty.

Shagys and Batys is a designation of East and West in Turkic. That's all.

[Rivares]

Quote: g1v2

a high-ranking clan of the Rurikovich with an impudent upstart Mamai

By the way, but as the name and surname of Mamaia, the story is silent)))

[Oldwiser]

Well, there is a version that the name was comrade Mama Ivan, by the name of Velyaminov, and by position he was dark (10).

[Oldwiser]

Well, there is a version that the name was comrade Mama Ivan, by the name of Velyaminov, and by position he was dark (10).

[Rivares]

Quote: g1v2

a high-ranking clan of the Rurikovich with an impudent upstart Mamai

By the way, but as the name and surname of Mamaia, the story is silent)))

[skrabplus.ru]

Read Fomenko and Nosovsky-facts more!

[Sergey-8848]

Here we are attacked by a disaster - snowy. Now. Everyone who has the strength, intelligence and conscience came out to deal with her. Someone went sideways, someone did not care.
None of us living (even a hard worker, even a slob) did not even think of sharing on a national basis. There is a problem - we will solve it, and it will not be. And no one will ever ask anyone where he was? But treating each other is a must, because you have to be no worse.
This is the Orenburg region, these are Russians, Ukrainians, Tatars, Bashkirs, Kazakhs, Mordovians, Chuvashs, Germans, Mari, Udmurts, Belarusians, Jews, Kalmyks, French. Tajiks, Uzbeks, Turkmens and Kyrgyz are just relatives (when native, when - first cousin).
Our region and my city is Russia?

[the most important]

Quote: Nikolai S.

History is an object such that the more you know, the more questions.

You're right!!! But don't worry, we Russians have won !!! And about the Mongols, the absolute truth - they themselves are shocked that the "three shepherds" captured half the world.

[RomanS]

Right! And the Ancient Ukrainians dug up the Black Sea!

[Sweles]

Nnda is cool Samsonov writes in his last article, the day before yesterday wrote that there were Tatars and Mongols, today he writes that he didn’t, that he wants to and writes.
Firstly, if there was no TMI, then it is necessary, somehow, to adhere to the logic in historical constructions, if there was no Mongol empire, then there was a Russian empire, and the Russian empire has its roots in the Roman one, therefore there is already a version that

Indeed, it is known from history that any conqueror relies on a developed economy. Rome was the foremost power of Europe. Alexander the Great relied on a farm created by his father Philip. With all his talents, he would not have been able to make half the accomplishments if his father had not created a powerful mining, metallurgical industry, strengthened finances, and carried out a number of military reforms

already, too, does not stand up to criticism, especially about the "powerful mining and metallurgical industry" of the ancient Greeks - this is Samson's lies, there are no facts. This, too, would have to be cleared somehow.
Secondly, moving away from understanding the "Mongolian Empire" in its traditional form and moving on to the RUSSIAN-HORDAN EMPIRE, it becomes necessary to understand what the WEST is with its Catholic-Protestant, commercial culture and its claims to "Roman" origin. Here is an uncultivated field for research.
In Latin, EUROPE is EAST i.e. the advance of Catholicism on the Russian world went from the west - to the east, conquering the Slavic lands and creating new peoples from the Slavs. These are the Etruscans, Luga’s lands on modern German lands. Here is this HISTORY, as the Slavs conquered, we do not know at all.
And even Samsonov, if you rely on the ideas of Fomenko-Nosovsky, then you should not bashfully replace them with the opinions of any plagiarists Petukhov and others.

[Xsanchez]

If we follow the theory of Fomenko-Nosovsky, then the ancient Roman empire did not exist, at least not 3-1 century BC, but 12-14 centuries AD, and all the ruins, supposedly having 2 years of history, led the Renaissance. Karl is completely invented (because he didn’t leave a single material evidence of his existence). Correct, believe more to Western historians: we, it turns out, are invaders of the Baltic states and dill! Westerners are not even imagining this, they are already faking it before our eyes Good luck and patience in the study of history.

[Penzuck]

Quote: ovod84

bullshit sounds

I will support.
1. It is foolish to talk only about the Khalkha tribe and about the territory of modern Mongolia. Do the Mongols have border posts along nomads? Not. Those. where the Mongols wander - there is Mongolia.
2. Note - there was no single people of the Mongols. The distances between the nomads are huge. individual tribes and clans could unite, act together and absorb other non-Mongol nomadic and non-nomadic tribes. Known examples of the Scythian dynasty of the kings of Medes? The same dynasty of the Parthian kingdom taxied and hung Lyuli Krasus in Scythian style. Kipchak dynasties are known ... why not be Mongolian?
3. Why don’t you admit that the Mongols simply disappeared into Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, etc.? And the people of the Khalkha are driven into the desert? Someone asked the Chukchi whether they want to freeze in the far North?
4. And repeat the mantra: "There is no Mongoloid in Russians" ...
Was Mongolia formed in the 20th century? The state of the Kazakhs is also in the twentieth.
You will say that the Chinese and Kazakh are, to varying degrees, Mongoloids. But this only proves that the Turkic allies (tributaries, vassals) of the Mongols multiplied faster, and I will say the same about the peoples of the Volga region.
5. Compare B. Obama and A.S. Pushkin. The first semi-European. He had a second Negro in his family in the n-th generation, and he became like a gypsy when he was tanned by the sun.

[Sirocco]

Quote: Penzuck

1. It is foolish to talk only about the Khalkha tribe and about the territory of modern Mongolia. Do the Mongols have border posts along nomads? Not. Those. where the Mongols wander - there is Mongolia.

I don’t know how it goes about the pillars, I don’t know about the distances of the former tribes of Mongolia.
I am sure of one that in the territory of modern Mongolia, Buryatia, Kyrgyzstan, there are no remains of a great empire (similar to the remains of the Roman Empire) of Byzantium, Egyptian pyramids (I am sure that the Egyptians have no relation to these pyramids) and other remains in South America.
Please explain to me where are these remnants of a highly developed civilization? (palaces of the chamber, etc.) Where is the mining and processing of metal, (trowing, arrowheads, horseshoes and other utensils) how was this all done, delivered to the soldiers across thousands of kilometers? Where are the traces of blacksmithing in Mongolia? NO. Moreover, as we are told, they walked across the whole territory of Russia, who fed them, shod, dressed, treated, provided that they walked along enemy territory, and they were not met with bread and salt. According to history, such a Mongol Blitz krieg is obtained, for a month. Doesn't it seem strange?
How was the logistics organized then?
All this can be compared with the operation of our air forces in Syria, if there had not been the Syrian Express, the use of high-tech intelligence, assistance from the local population and the Syrian authorities, there would have been no such successful defeat of Daesh.
Well, the cherry on the cake,
As you explain, the fact that the power of the Golden Horde did not destroy the church in those years, but rather built, there was no destruction of religion, as in any actions of aggressors in such wars. ????
So these doubts have personally crept in for me for a very long time.
It was not in vain that the Alexandria Library was burned, the search for the library of Ivan the Terrible, and the persecution of Lomonosov, were also in vain organized by Western historians who served in Russia in those years.
That which did not burn out, then rotted, and it is difficult to find out the history of Russia, the whole trouble is how to distinguish truth from lies?
Grains and tares, as in the bible.

[Penzuck]

Quote: Sirocco

I don’t know how it goes about the pillars, I don’t know about the distances of the former tribes of Mongolia.

1.Very bad.

Quote: Sirocco

Please explain to me where are these remnants of a highly developed civilization?

2. Moreover, civilization (cities) and a nomadic way of life? Hungarians settled? Donkey. Will Pest and Build? And where are the traces of the Hungarian empire in the Kama region (Volga region)? Well, where the nomads settled there and left cultural marks. Nomadic Manchus invaded northern China and proclaimed Qing. Nomadic tribes invaded India - Mughal Empire. And the places of their temporary camps along the nomadic routes were temporary and were not cities. As for the Karakorum and other cities, they grew and developed only along stable trade routes and fell apart with their desolation. Besides, take the Crimean Tatars and Turks - where are the traces of their "highly cultured" civilizations?

Quote: Sirocco

Where is the mining and processing of metal

Southern Urals. Altai ... etc. Didn't Russian explorers find the "traces" of the "Chud mines" in the 17th century? Didn't the Tungus have metal weapons? And you can take tribute not only with swords, but also with stripes ...
Do you think the Mongols did not have copies, since the trees do not grow in the steppe?

Quote: Sirocco

How was the logistics organized then?

Ask Tuvan and Mongolo-Buryat shepherds about this.

Quote: Sirocco

As you explain, the fact that the power of the Golden Horde did not destroy the church in those years, but rather built, there was no destruction of religion, as in any actions of aggressors in such wars. ????

In China, they did not destroy either. AND?

[Sirocco]

Quote: Penzuck

In China, they did not destroy either. AND?

You mixed everything that is possible and that is impossible, flies, cutlets, sleepers, wings.
India - Ural, distances do not bother you? You inattentively read my post, and I'm not a kindergarten teacher to chew on you.
For you I’ll try to explain on the fingers.
Sit on a horse in Buryatia, take food and everything you need to take away (for how long you will have enough) and follow the horse to Zlatoglava how you will be able to get there without a blacksmith who will reforges the horse, repair the harness, eat what you will feed the horse, (if winter). It's like a service station, for a car.
There are none of them on the track, and you go five.

Quote: Penzuck

Ask Tuvan and Mongolo-Buryat shepherds about this.

I live here, that is, in Buryatia, therefore I ask you not those I know personally

Quote: Penzuck

In China, they did not destroy either. AND?

China, China.
So what's up with China? I don’t remember Tataro of the Chinese invasion, what about China? More.

[Penzuck]

Quote: Sirocco

You mixed everything that is possible and that is impossible, flies, cutlets, sleepers, wings.

but. And you break my arguments consistently.

Quote: Sirocco

India - Ural, distances do not bother you?

b. Is this an argument? Invasion in the 1717 of the Crimean Khan Girey? 10 000 horsemen. The result of the campaign - 30 000 prisoners. And now the distance from the nomads of the Kuban Horde to Penza? 950 km in a straight line. 30 km per day: a month to go.

Quote: Sirocco

get without a blacksmith

in. What do you need to shoe a horse? 1. Horse.
2. Horseshoe (4 pcs + spare)
3. Nails
4. Hammer.
5. Knife (to clean the hoof)
6. A person is able to raise the leg of a horse (horse), clean the hoof, attach a horseshoe, nail the horseshoe to the hoof with nails. To do this, IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO BE A KUZNET, THERE IS A MORE PROFESSIONAL WARRIOR.

Quote: Sirocco

I live here, that is, in Buryatia, that's why I ask you, and not those I know personally

d. Read point b and c and compare, or do you chew from the kindergarten? And Google will tell you more.

[Seal]

Nomadic Manchus invaded northern China and proclaimed Qing.

Why nomadic? Indeed, according to your traditional version of history, the Manchus are Jurzhen, who had a powerful state in China, but were allegedly defeated by the "Mongols" in the late 12th-early 13th centuries of our era.

Nomadic tribes invaded India - Mughal Empire.

And why are these nomadic? You do not confuse pastoralism with nomadism. The most typical example of nomadic peoples is the gypsies. And if people who are engaged in pasture cattle breeding are registered as nomads, then almost all Cossacks in the 19th century will turn out to be "nomads".

[Penzuck]

Quote: Seal

The most typical example of nomadic peoples is gypsies.

Hungarians, Bulgaro-Bulgarians ... Khazars, Pechenegs. The fact that they possessed / have a different degree of sedentary, I do not deny ...

Quote: Seal

these are the jurzhenis who had a powerful state in China,

The Jews, for example, "had a powerful state" in Egypt, and then "migrated" their own, took away the lands of the settled Canaans, otgenocidili a little, assimilated a part and settled.

[Mr. Pipper]

Quote: Sirocco

Please explain to me where are these remnants of a highly developed civilization? (palaces of the chamber, etc.)

What else nafig highly developed civilization?!
Nobody talks about a highly developed civilization - there was a horde of nomads, which in "hand-to-hand" was stronger than the more developed peoples around them and only

Quote: Sirocco

According to history, such a Mongol Blitz krieg is obtained, for a month.

For decades they went west!

[ver_]

.. why everyone confuses Mogul with Mongolia - these are two different things .. Mogul = great, and Mongolia State of 2 year of birth ..

[Mr. Pippers]

Quote: ver_

why everyone confuses Mogolia with Mongolia - these are 2 different things .. Mogolia = great, and Mongolia State of 1920 year of birth ..

Mughal Empire in India
Mongol Empire from the territory of modern Mongolia.
Regarding the state - in general, "statehood" and the history of the Mongols is very ancient, but it just so happened - that the nomads of the state in our usual form are not able to create for objective reasons, in no way dependent on their personal qualities - states are created by farmers

[Balagan]

Farmers ... And where does the concept of "nomadic empires" come from? Nomads also created many states. But their system turned out to be less tenacious.

[KaPToC]

Can you give an example of nomadic states?

[Seal]

And where does the concept of "nomadic empires" come from?

Yes, from the pseudohistorical jokes abundantly distributed by professional historians.

[Alexey-74]

Well then, tell me what territory the great Mughals occupied (geographically) and what ethnic group there taxied

[Sirocco]

Quote: Mister Pipper

For decades they went west!

Here you have the flag in your hands along with Penzuck, or rather a horse between your legs, and try to make the way, but not along the track. and cross country.
PS
Do not forget to just act on the way as invaders of the Russian land, "rob" in the villages, and see where you will be, and how far you go.

[Pissarro]

trying to prove the impossibility of riding a horse on the steppe?

[alicante11]

Nobody talks about a highly developed civilization - there was a horde of nomads, which in "hand-to-hand" was stronger than the more developed peoples around them and only

Yeah, this is from the same area that we threw corpses and iron in the Second World War? The army can win only due to advanced technology.

[Mr. Pippers]

Quote: alicante11

The army can win only due to advanced technology.

What else advanced technology in those years that Russia has that of the Mongols ?!
Although, the Mongols had a more powerful "technique" - a lot of horses and bows

[Balagan]

After 1000, they will also be surprised - but where do the Russians and Americans have advanced technology from? What could they come up with sensible in the twentieth century?

[KaPToC]

You are so stupid that you do not distinguish a hunting bow from a combat bow.

[alicante11]

What other advanced technology in those years that Russia has that of the Mongols?

That's exactly what. And since there could not be victories, then they did not exist.

[Pissarro]

the army wins the war only at the expense of organization and morale. There are many examples when a more technologically advanced adversary was defeated

[KaPToC]

It would be nice to give an example, so as not to be unfounded?

[Pissarro]

The battle of Dienbienfu, the paddlers plucked from the Vietnamese. Who is the world colonial power with an atomic bomb, and who savages from the jungle with trophy weapons will figure it out? The Vietnamese won.
Afghanistan can be remembered and the complete destruction there of the English army in the 19th century
yes the whole story in such examples

[Seal]

The Vietnamese won.

Under Diebienfou, who had our T-34s and Katyusha-type multiple launch rocket systems (although more likely of the Luka Mudischev type, which in fact were our multiple launch rocket systems during the period of the end of the Great Patriotic War, but which in literature continued to be called, like multiple launch rocket systems of the first years of the war - "Katyusha").

[Seal]

Oh, some specialist drew a minus. Showing http://army.lv/en/den-ben-fu.-srazhenie/2308/4035

Under Dien-Bien-Fu, Ziap had twenty to twenty-four 105 mm howitzers, fifteen to twenty 75 mm howitzers, twenty 120 mm mortars, at least forty 82 mm mortars, eighty 37 mm anti-aircraft guns (probably with calculations from the Chinese), 100 anti-aircraft machine guns and from twelve to sixteen Katyusha rocket launchers (each with six guides).
Everything else, the communists favored the area. They occupied positions at dominant heights, rising above the runway by 3000-4000 meters and above the enemy fortifications by 1500-2000 meters. This gave the gunners the opportunity to conduct survey fire on the positions of the French, that is, to use a primitive, but effective way to “aim through the barrel.” Dense vegetation that covered the mountains allowed the Vietnamese to disguise artillery and air defense systems, as well as secretly relocate infantry units from one point to another.
During the 55-day battle, the Vietnamese fired at least 93 artillery shells at the enemy.

[novel66]

why did they go west, for which, excuse me, figs ??

[Mr. Pippers]

Quote: novel xnumx

why did they go west, for what, sorry, figs

And they have Akiyans from the east, and chill out from the north, and in the south the jungles and horses do not run there - where else could they ride, or in a circle if the neighbors are strong or where they will jump when the neighbors are weak

[Alexey-74]

this is a big question .... it is assumed that the "Mongols" did not know geography at all and did not even know what lay ahead .... with a developed strategy, this does not happen any military leader should study the enemy and generally know its location, but then they just went to West - for what ????

[aviator65]

Quote: novel xnumx

why did they go west, for which, excuse me, figs ??

By the way, the most interesting question. Probably in the west, grass for sheep was sweeter ...

[Seal]

How for what? Each hulk-Mongol for hundreds of years was born with the only fix idea - someday go far to the West, find the city of Ryazan and burn it. If the task cannot be completed by itself, the fix idea is passed on to the son. If the son fails to go to the West and burn Ryazan there, then the task is transferred to the grandson. Etc.

[Turkir]

Not quite that simple. The weapons of the army of Genghis were better. If the English (famous) archers fired 200-300 meters, then the range of the Genghisides was at least 500 meters. Some archers fired at 700 meters. Rate of fire, range and continuous (!) Replenishment of arrows transported on carts.
Discipline, removable horses and the best weaponry and tactics are the ingredients that not only Russians have to deal with. Underestimating these things has led to dire results. Why would they "hand-to-hand" in which the Russians were strong?
Underestimating the enemy, ignorance of his technical and tactical capabilities always leads to defeat.

[Mr. Pippers]

Quote: Turkir

Why would they "hand-to-hand" in which the Russians were strong?

This is figurative for those who think in terms of the 20th century - victory - powerful weapons - powerful industry - big cities with institutions

[Turkir]

I am surprised that you do not know the obvious things. Why write comments on a topic that is not interesting to you?
What does your sentence mean: "This is figurative (!) For those who think in terms of the 20th century"? You probably think that if you put smart words together in one sentence, you get a "smart" meaning? You are wrong.

[Seal]

Some archers fired at 700 meters. Rate of fire, range and continuous (!) Replenishment of arrows transported on carts.

And then Yermak appeared in Siberia. So what ? Probably for over 300 years, the "descendants of Chingizids" developed their skills so much that their bows probably fired a kilometer, and the logistics of continuous replenishment of arrows by using high-speed carts reached heavenly levels?

[Rivares]

Quote: Turkir

Underestimating these things has led to dire results. Why would they "hand-to-hand" in which the Russians were strong?

And in historical documents there is a description of the foot "Mongols" of their weapons and tactics.

[kumaxa]

200 meters with a bow you are laughing! the slaughter range of such weapons is very doubtful. no more than 70 meters and subject to a static target position. and provided that it is difficult to compound bow. I read a book on the culture and life of the ancient Siberian peoples, there is a description of such a bow no more than 70 meters and with a certain type of arrow. Also, such a bow is very complex and expensive in production and operation of weapons. in general, such bows are the lot of warlords.

[Riv]

But the British didn’t know about it, loshars! The reconstruction of one of the English bows found on board the Mary Rose allowed us to establish that an arrow weighing 53,6 g flies off to a distance of 328 m. In general, the record for the range for it is more than 500 m. At the same time, the English long bow has wood simple construction.

Perhaps this is a very strong witchcraft? At least stronger than the Siberian shaman.

[Turkir]

You're right. The range of firing from an English bow depended, of course, on the physical abilities of the archer himself, and not only on the bow itself.
And the bows, we will call from the usual, Tatar-Mongol, at the end had horn or bone plates, a kind of spring. Compound bows.
The force had to be applied less, the arrow flew further, and the bow was smaller than the English!
There is an interesting book by Y. Shokarev "Bows and Crossbows".

[KaPToC]

Why do you give us an example of English bows? The Russians had complex bows, and in this component, the Russians were not inferior to the mythical Mongols in anything but superior.

[Riv]

Less power? Here you are mistaken. The law of conservation of momentum has not been canceled. The greater the acceleration of the arrow, the higher its speed and the further it will fly away. If the Tatars had a bow suitable for shooting from a horse (and it was), then it should be tighter than a long yew bow.

Actually, the Tatar bow was so strong that there were special techniques for stringing the bowstring. At the Battle of Panipat, Babur's archers began firing from a distance of 200 steps, completely disorganizing the front ranks of the enemy. For comparison - gunners with only a hundred.

[KaPToC]

Exactly, the law of conservation of momentum. With what force the archer will pull the bowstring, the arrow will fly with such force and fly, the bow does not give any additional energy to the arrow. The bows of Russian warriors were likewise adapted for firing from a horse.

[Riv]

Still, Russian bows were on average weaker. As in Europe, our bow was more of a common weapon. The princely squads were not distinguished by a high number and the combatants could not create a high density of fire. Accordingly, not that quality, not that power. Google the photos yourself, make sure.

There is one more nuance. Horse speed at a gallop is an additional and very serious increase in arrow speed. That is, the Tatar horse archer, in principle, could fire at the enemy’s formation without even approaching the distance of the return shot. And of course, in any case, his shot was the first.

Something had to be opposed to this tactic. And as soon as Russia got a little freaked out, experiments began with crossbows / self-arrows, and then with firearms. Again, above all, they were the weapons of the townspeople.

[KaPToC]

This is all your fiction, excavations have shown that the Mongolian and Russian bows are completely identical. There were few Russian warriors, but the Mongols TOTAL four thousand horsemen - countless hordes.
Walking archers over horseback have several advantages, firstly a denser formation, which means a denser volley of arrows, secondly standing on the ground, you can aim much more accurately than when shooting from a horse galloping, have you ever mounted a horse?
About how an arrow launched from a gallop flies on - this is generally the darkness of ignorance. She can fly a little further, only a galloping horse will cover this difference faster than a rider firing one single arrow.

[Riv]

I didn’t just sit on a horse. I went to her, but more about that another time.

And the Tatar bows (forget your "Mongolian" ones) differed from the Russians very seriously (after a certain unification took place), and the archers did not become a dense formation. From the word "never". On the contrary: the formation of foot archers was always loose, in several lines, and even stakes were stuck into the ground between each other.
And the arrow from the horse flies further and hits harder. Well, physics. The speed of the horse at a gallop is 60 km / h, the speed of the arrow is 300 km / h. 20% in the black.

In turn, I will also ask: what class are you in?

[KaPToC]

You are mistaken, archers could act both in tight formation and in alluvial formations, but in any case it was a formation, if you shoot with a canopy the formation could be in several rows. In this case, horse archers simply have nothing to oppose except hasty flight.
How much increase in speed an arrow will receive depends on its weight. A light arrow has a high initial speed and will receive a small increase, a heavy arrow has a much lower initial speed and, accordingly, the increase in speed will seem higher (in percent). In general, a lot depends on the type of arrow, and if a long-range arrow does not hurt a Russian combatant, it will kill a nomad.
If I went to first grade thirty years ago, now I'm in thirtieth grade? What an idiotic question? If you are older this does not mean that you are smarter.

[Riv]

Well, this is how to look. Say: a fifth grade student knows that speed is a vector quantity, and kinetic energy depends (surprise!) On SQUARE of speed. Therefore, with an increase in the speed of the arrow by 20%, its energy, and with it the breakdown force, increases by 44%. At the same time, with an increase in the mass of the boom by 20%, the kinetic energy will increase by the same 20%.

That is why, to a certain limit, it is more profitable to reduce the mass of the boom rather than increase it. A lighter arrow gives the bow greater acceleration and therefore greater speed. In sports shooting at a range, short arrows with sipper were used and are used. Here with this:

Such things, young man ...

[Spnsr]

Riv (4) RU Today, 09:49 ↑

you will forgive me, but there is one thing, but an archer riding a horse gets minus 20%, you wrote such numbers, resistance to your shot, not acceleration, but a horse riding a horse gets + 20% to the breakdown power flying on meeting the arrow ... can read physics more carefully ...
there’s a very fine line, if the applied effort when launching the arrow can overcome the resistance barrier, then a similar effect may be possible, but this requires more effort and this does not need to disperse the arrow on the horse, but to improve armament or train the force, and the arrow will fly to the usual distance, if not less, due to resistance + the distance traveled (skipped ) the rider.
the effect of the jump in front of the formation during shooting is carried out by the fact that the rider, to the extent of his mobility, becomes a difficult target for the enemy archer, and can shoot to the full depth of the formation, which, to the extent of his cohesion, is a big target, but if he meets the arrow when he meets on the move, then she will be met by him with the mass of the arrow mass of her speed and the speed of the rider himself, this is rude at the same time very rude, but what you write contradicts the laws of physics !!!

[Riv]

an archer riding a horse gets minus 20%, you wrote such numbers, resistance to your shot, not acceleration

I do not quite understand the meaning of this phrase. What other resistance?

but the horse riding on a horse gets + 20%

Not + 20%, but those same 44% due to the addition of speeds. But! The footman stands still, he is not running anywhere. And the rider can shoot one or two times from a safe distance, take advantage of his speed and landing height on a horse (well, the higher you climb, the farther the arrow flies away, right?) And turn the horse before it enters the infantry shelling zone.

But actually it's cool: "a horseman riding a horse". Are you playing cap, dear heart?

with the mass of the arrow of its speed and the speed of the rider himself

Although no, it is unlikely ... Most likely the fourth-fifth class, right? Well, a normal adult will not write such a thing ...

[Spnsr]

Quote: Riv

an archer riding a horse gets minus 20%, you wrote such numbers, resistance to your shot, not acceleration

I do not quite understand the meaning of this phrase. What other resistance?

the impending flow of air, or you do not take air into account at all and it is not resistance?

Quote: Riv

and (well, the higher you climb, the further the arrow flies away, right?) and

and this is not the acceleration applied by a galloping horse! but rather a favorable position!

Quote: Riv

Although no, it is unlikely ... Most likely the fourth-fifth class, right? Well, a normal adult will not write such a thing ...

so that it was accessible, and then the formulas for the student of grade 4, it will be difficult ...
but in general, you delight me with what agility and agility you maneuver between the heaping flow of information and do not forget to insist on your own when you feel that this is not the direction of human activity, and it will not go deeper into the meaning of the discussion .... plus to you

[Riv]

acceleration applied by a prancing horse!

Have you heard a dull hit? This Petrosyan crashed into a swoon of envy.

[Spnsr]

Quote: Riv

acceleration applied by a prancing horse!

Have you heard a dull hit? This Petrosyan crashed into a swoon of envy.

didn’t you know that in order to give some object additional acceleration in order to go beyond a certain coordinate system in which the weight of the objects move relative to some zero point with the same acceleration, you must at least, if you take a rider, put him on a horse and to whip a horse, well, probably with a whip, so that this horseman with a bow would change his position relative to other standing warriors ... in a coordinate system in which the wagon with Genghisides is a conditional zero! but in the coordinate system, in which the sun is the reference point, then, as if instantly the Mongolian horse, even under the guise of a Turkmen horse, did not move from Ulanbator to Ryazan, it will accelerate with the same acceleration with which the earth rotates around the sun ....

[KaPToC]

Light arrows are hunting or sporting arrows, such an arrow will not penetrate even light armor, during the war, battle arrows were used, which are much heavier.
In addition, I deny the very fact of increasing the speed of the arrow if the rider jumps, the question is that the rider covers the difference in seconds and falls under the shelling of the infantry.
And yet, the Russians are physically stronger than the Mongols and, accordingly, can pull the bow harder.
So grandpa ...

[Seal]

Horse speed at a gallop 60 km / h

Excuse me, what kind of horse are you talking about now? Are you talking about the "Mongols"?

[Riv]

Another Mongolian fan ... Love since childhood? I understand...
However, the Horde rode horses of the Turkmen breed.

[Seal]

Princely squads did not differ in high numbers and combatants could not create high density of fire. Accordingly, not that quality, not that power. Themselves google photosmake sure.

I mean, do you suggest looking in Google for photos of 13th century prince warriors? And, although I’m embarrassed, I’ll ask, did professional photographers take photographs of prince warriors or did vigilantes take selfies?

[Riv]

Well, who's stopping? Look for it. But in general, historians estimate the strength of Alexander Nevsky’s squad at about 400 people. And without Google it’s clear that for a massive shelling this is not enough.

[KaPToC]

The firing range primarily depends on the physical strength of the archer, the small clumsy Mongols could not physically shoot further than the Russians.

[Alexey-74]

They also taught them how to storm cities and fortresses from childhood ...? here you don’t just need to be able to shoot well with a bow. Russian combatants were also very good soldiers ....

[Riv]

There were, yes ... But who told you that the combatants were defending themselves, and not storming the same cities along with the Tatars? How many times did the same Nevsky Tatars attract for their showdowns? How many Russian princes, along with the Tatars, went to Europe?
In the courtyard there is feudal fragmentation, no one has heard of patriotism, and there is still no "United Russia" (pun!). What prevents the prince of Smolensk from fleeing with the Tatars to Moscow? Nothing. On the contrary: he will say thank you if they call.

[xtur]

> In the courtyard there is feudal fragmentation, no one has heard of patriotism, and there is no "United Russia" (pun intended!)

Nevertheless, although many important questions remain with the "Mongol" conquest, there are also a lot of undoubted facts.

The Mongols conquered Iran and Armenia - countries that had their own tradition of historiography, which arose almost a thousand years before the appearance of the "Mongols", and, accordingly, the "Mongol" conquest was described by Armenian historians.
The Cilician king of the times of the Mongol conquests, he himself was a historian, and described in detail the conclusion of an alliance between the Mongols and Cilicia (we are of course talking about an unequal alliance).

The Mongols spent 100-200 years in the region, the Armenian princes regularly visited them in the capital to get a label on power, many times they fought with the Mongols against the Asia Minor Seljuks.

Armenians have practically no Mongolian genes in their blood, but Lezghins have about 30% of Mongolian genes in their blood, if my memory serves me right.
So there is no reason to doubt the conquest and anthropology of the bulk of the troops. But at the same time, it may well turn out that the ruling dynasty / tribe, and many of the participants were Indo-Europeans, because among them there were many Christians, albeit Nestorians.

But how the "Mongols" managed to conquer what they conquered is really a question-question.

[Seal]

The Mongols conquered Iran and Armenia - countries that had their own tradition of historiography, which arose almost a thousand years before the appearance of the "Mongols", and, accordingly, the "Mongol" conquest was described by Armenian historians.

I would advise you to be careful with Armenian historians. According to the information posted on the site of Armenian archivists, the oldest DOCUMENT for archival storage in the Republic of Armenia dates back to 1607 AD. Everything that is considered more ancient is, alas, everything that does not carry any historical information - religious texts, all sorts of gospels, Bibles, a textbook and textbooks.
And further. Specifically in Armenia there is another big problem.
Archivists know her. Millions of written scrolls are stored in world museums (and scrolls, this is precisely the first DOCUMENTS). But all over the world there is not a single scroll in Armenian!
And this problem is recognized by the Armenian archivists themselves. It is very easy to see this. You just type in the GUGL "there are no Armenian manuscripts of the scrolls" and you get bitter complaints from your archivists that: "The Armenians did not find the manuscripts wrapped in the form of scrolls."
However, in the entire writing world, all documents up to the 17th and 18th centuries, that is, up to the invention of postal envelopes, were written on separate sheets of paper, which implies their subsequent wrapping in the form of a scroll and its sealing. Just look at the painting by John Trumbull "The Signing of the US Declaration of Independence", written in 1819 - even in this painting we see documents in the form of scrolls.
Well, Armenia is probably just a "unique" country, which in its "many thousand-year history" managed to do without written DOCUMENTS at all! But with a mass of supposedly ancient "handwritten books". But all of them, as I indicated, do not carry any historical information, since all of them, like a sin, are books of religious content, medical books, textbooks, and so on.
Alas, in real life this does not happen!
And this is typical for the history of Middle-earth, including Rohon, Gondor, Mordor, etc.

[xtur]

> With Armenian historians, I would advise you to be careful

If I need advice on Armenian history or culture, I will find someone to ask him for.
PS. By the way, we wrote not only on parchment, but also on stones, in the sense on the rocks.


But to the whistleblowers of antiquity of Gondor, there is not enough time to know anything about the subject of exposure

PSPS And we also found the oldest shoes, wine, wheat and religious temples. But that also means nothing, of course

> Well, Armenia is probably just a "unique" country

Yes, it is, without any quotation marks. A country in which, even according to the traditions of the Sumerians, they knew the secret of immortality, and then it went into the Bible, like the world tree of Eden (from which they ate apples).

I’m not talking about immortality now, but about the uniqueness that was recognized even in such an antiquity, in which there were neither Greeks, in all their varieties, nor Romans, and in general there was nothing Western

PS. I also spoke about genetic research, but it was not enough for the whistleblower of Armenian antiquity to pay attention to this.

[Seal]

PS. By the way, we wrote not only on parchment, but also on stones, in the sense on the rocks.

And what prevented you from asking smart people before? You would be answered that science has not yet learned to date damage to stones, including those made artificially in the form of cutting or peeling.
And further. It was about DOCUMENTS. However, if you think that you placed documents on the rocks, then the flag is in your hands and sent to a mental hospital.
However, even the question of which people made inscriptions on the rocks for science remains open.

[xtur]

> What prevented you from asking smart people before? You would be told that science has not yet learned how to date damage on stones

I asked who I needed - I’m sure that of the two of us, it’s you who do not speak Armenian written and Armenian verbal to read the works of Armenian historians in their native language.
and about the methods of dating I have an idea

> It was about DOCUMENTS

I started the speech, so I know what she was talking about, not for you to teach me. And it was also about genetics, which the Mongols inherited next to Armenia.

> However, even the question of which people made the inscriptions on the rocks for science remains open

again, depending on what kind of science. Normal science has long proved that the entire written language of the Armenian Highlands starting from 3 BC and until the creation of the Armenian alphabet is a single script, and genetics also proved that the Armenian genes were formed already in 000 BC, and religion already was Armenian, and language - because these are all factors of isolation of genetic material, without which only divine influence will have to explain the complete indistinguishability of the Armenian genes of antiquity and modern

[Seal]

You and your pseudo-history are only getting underfoot. And you play into the hands of an idiotic version of the Mongol conquest of the world. Here, enjoy your "origins".

Strabo "Geography":
"12. The ancient history of this nation is approximately the following. As I said, Armen from the Thessalian city of Armenia, located between Fera and Larissa on Lake Beba, went on a campaign to Armenia with Jason. Kirsil from Farsal and Media from Larissa, participants in Alexander's campaign, claim that Armenia received its name from him. Part of Armen's companions settled in Akilisen (which in former times was subject to the Sofenes), while others - in Sispiritis up to Kalachena and Adiabena behind the Armenian mountains (in Asia Minor - R.G.) It is further said that the clothes of the Armenians are Thessalian; for example, long tunics, called Thessalian in the tragedies, tied with a belt around the chest, and outer clothing with fasteners ... "
"Armen came from Armenia - one of the cities near Lake Bebeida, between Feram and Larisa. Armen’s satellites occupied the regions of Akilisenu and Sispiritida up to Kalahana and Adiabena, and he even left Armenia of the same name with him." (Strabo. "Geography", XI part, p. 503)
Strabo brought all this, referring to the natives of Thessaly - Kirsil from Farsal and Midia from Larisa - the participants of the campaign of Alexander the Great.
And the Roman historian of the III century, Mark Junian Justin, also noted that Armen was from the city of Armenia in Thessaly (near Lake Bebeida) and was the founder of Armenia. And on the north-eastern coast of the Aegean was the region of Thrace, which became the next parking lot of Armenians, who, having got here, further settled in Phrygia in Asia Minor. Then the Armenians settled inland Asia Minor - south of Lake Van and at the source of the Euphrates - that is, at the junction of the borders of modern Turkey, Syria and Iraq. It is this route Thessaly-Thrace-Phrygia and further to the Euphrates River and the south of Lake Van that the ancient authors have shown as a way of nomadizing Armenians.
And according to the "father of history" Herodotus, Phrygia was located next to another historical area - Cappadocia. At the time of Herodotus (XNUMXth century BC), the ancestors of the Armenians lived "higher than the Assyrians", up the Euphrates - the river that separated, according to the historian, Armenia from Cilicia. He specifically noted that the Armenians came to their country from the West. Herodotus also indicated that the Armenians are descendants of the Phrygians.
And Strabo (I B.C. - I C.E.) writes about a new Armenia in Asia Minor, where the Armenians moved from the Balkans: "Araks (Araz - R.G.) flows through Armenia, and Cyrus (Kura - R .G.) - through Iberia and Albania ... "" The largest of them is Cyrus. It originates in Armenia ... ".
The fact that the ancestral home of the Armenians is located outside the South Caucasus and even Asia Minor is written by the outstanding Russian scientist I.M.Dyakonov. Based on a linguistic analysis of the ancient Armenian language, "it is revealed, first of all, that it is Indo-European ...". Further, Dyakonov states: "since the ancient Armenian language is not related to the languages ​​of the autochthons of the Armenian Highlands - Hurrit, Urartu, it is clear that it is brought here from the outside." Similar conclusions were reached in a special study on the "pre-Caucasian homeland" of Armenians, the famous Armenist G. Kapantsyan, who believed that Armenians should be confined mainly to the space between the upper reaches of the Euphrates (Kara-su), Chorokh and Araks, where they relocated Balkan (Thessaly).

Based on the above, it can be stated that the Armenians are not the autochthons of Asia Minor, especially the South Caucasus.

[KaPToC]

I want to add about "autohonts". There is Jewish autonomy in Russia, and before the war there was German autonomy, two more indigenous peoples of Russia. Other "indigenous" peoples of Russia are as indigenous as the Germans, the only difference is that their arrival on the Russian land was erased from history. On the territory of Russia there is only one autokhont - Russians, during the excavation of the sites of ancient people on the territory of Russia, no other genetics are found, and the Finns, and the Hungarians, and the Mongoloids came later, practically in our time.

[xtur]

> You are just getting underfoot with your pseudo-history.

I don’t like being rude, but even less like it when others do it. (H)kick, I wrote clearly in Russian - there are genetic studies of the Armenian genome, carried out by Western scientists:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/11/science/study-backs-5th-century-historians-dat
e-for-founding-of-armenia.html? smid = fb-share & _r = 0


it says about factors that contribute to genetic isolation - language, religion, writing


on the study of various myths about the origin of Armenians, and not only Greek:
http://vizantarm.am/page.php?369

[Riv]

Well, make a simple conclusion: there were no Mongols. There were the most ordinary Turks, or rather, peoples of Turkic origin. The entire "Mongol conquest" is the first attempt in history to create a multinational state by uniting these peoples. And a successful attempt! In the future, the Horde broke up, but this is the most common occurrence. What was once collected was again united under the hand of the Moscow tsars, and the last this time were the Central Asian peoples. Those with whom the Horde began.

[revnagan]

Quote: Sirocco

Please explain to me where are these remnants of a highly developed civilization?

The Germanic tribes that invaded Rome and destroyed the Roman Empire also did not have the signs of a highly developed civilization. However, they took, surged, and smashed everything to smithereens.

[Sirocco]

Quote: revnagan

The Germanic tribes that invaded Rome and destroyed the Roman Empire also did not have the signs of a highly developed civilization. However, they took, surged, and smashed everything to smithereens.

It was not on the territory of Mongolia, not a single developed mine of those years was found, as well as the remains of traces of forges and metal smelting furnaces in large quantities. Well, there is no such thing. Or, as in a Jewish joke, they were sold to enslaved themselves, they say buy a couple of arrows from us, we will sell you.

[saigon]

As a matter of fact, the civilization of Gaul and Germany was slightly inferior to Roman. What the hell is Julius Caesar roaming around Gaul for several years? Robbed. So it was something to rob. On the territory of Germany, Poland, Austria, h
The Czech Republic has found a lot of cities from the time of Roman civilization, which were not built by Rome, but existed before the Roman invasion.

[Riv]

You are not in the subject. Rome was indeed taken by the Germans, but ... these were the Germans who wore armor and weapons of the Roman model and obeyed quite normal officers (also Germans). No "tribes", quite a normal army.

At the end of the Roman Empire (around the time of Magna Maximus), the recruitment of legionnaires from barbarian tribes in the limitrophic provinces became widespread practice. It was a specific people, and it was not for nothing that Maxim opened a long list of "soldier" emperors. The legionnaires put on the throne whoever they wanted and they were no longer attracted to fight.

And when the Goths invaded Italy, it turned out that many of them still have old friends in the legions. Looting is nicer together. Roman troops massively sided with Alaric, and besides, he still freed slaves (among whom were also full of Germans) and took part of them into his army. The result is predictable: Rome fell. There is evidence that the gates of Rome were opened to the Goths by slaves.

[varov14]

It remains to rely on genetics, if, for example, during the excavation of some "Arkaim" bones are found and they belong to some gypsies, the whole question is closed, there is nothing to attribute other people's merits to others

[Mr. Pippers]

Quote: varov14

if, for example, during the excavation of some "Arkaim" bones are found and they belong to some gypsies, the whole question is closed

Genetics and haplogroup are slightly different things - there are even blacks in Africa with the "Aryan group" but purely genetically they are blacks

[Alexey-74]

If you collect all the information about the Mongol Tatar Mig, then the conclusion suggests itself, there was no such Yoke for almost 300 years ... I think the primary attack on Russia was (the question of whom) ... then the principalities were constantly at war with each other ... and the concept of yoke arose by itself (the same civil war) and the "Tatars" participated in supporting the troops on one and the other side .... therefore, on the Kulikovo field, the Tatar cavalry participated in both sides, the Genoese infantry on the side of Temnik Mamai ...

[Seal]

As you explain, the fact that the power of the Golden Horde did not destroy the church in those years, but rather built, there was no destruction of religion, as in any actions of aggressors in such wars. ????

Or maybe so?
The most suitable candidate for "Batu" is (the version of Albert Maksimov, available on the Internet) the son or grandson of Yuri (George), who is the son of Andrei Bogolyubsky. About him, traditional history says that he, having left Russia after the murder of his father - the first monarch of Russia, Andrei Bogolyubsky - settled first with the Polovtsy, since he had a partially Polovtsian origin, like 2/3 of the princes of Ancient Russia. Then Yuri Andreevich became the husband of the Georgian "Queen Tamar". But then I sort of discovered homosexual inclinations, for which she was expelled. Nevertheless, he twice invaded Georgia with an army, and both times had the support of the Georgian princes, but allegedly both times unsuccessfully and after the second time disappeared somewhere.
Nevertheless, traditional history says that some "Tatar-Mongols" nevertheless conquered Georgia. And then the Tatar-Mongols went to Russia. Well, given that the term "Tatar" is a horseman or a horseman, and a Mogul is a great one, it turns out that "Tatar-Mongols" are just a great cavalry army. Or the mounted army of the great.
From here it becomes absolutely logical and understandable those actions that traditional Tatar-Mongols conducted in Russia.
Firstly, their number should be considered 500-600 times less than the traditional 500-600 thousand (and even each with three horses). And the movement of one thousand horsemen in winter Russia, and even then not always in one crowd, but in 200-300 people, raises no questions. Secondly, it becomes clear why the "Tatar-Mongols" were well oriented in the vastness of Russia. It becomes clear why the "Tatar-Mongols", approaching the next city, first demanded that the residents surrender the next city to them, saying that your prince is not real or not the one, promising that if the gates are opened, there will be no punishment or only one prince will be punished ... Therefore, it becomes clear why many cities themselves opened the gates to the "Tatar-Mongols", which, in fact, were very few. But by the way, all the battles of the early Middle Ages were fought by VERY SMALL "armies", in which if there were 500 people, it was already "a lot". Residents, making sure who exactly returned, simply recognized the right of the senior branch (descendants of Andrei Bogolyubsky) to rule and opened the gates.
Where is Yuri Georgievich himself? Well, maybe he was bred under the name of a certain commander and mentor of Batu, a certain Subudai, who, according to traditional history, was very old (Yuri Bogolyubsky should be 1236 years old by 70), but Batu listened carefully to him.
Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, unlike his brother Yuri, recognized the rights of his relatives through his uncle (the elder brother of his father) - and remained safe and sound. And even in high esteem and in power.
But having taken power in Russia, the descendants of Yuri Andreyevich, in order to make it more convenient to observe the Caucasus and the Caspian region, founded their stake on the Volga. In the middle of their new state. This was the so-called Horde, where the princes traveled so often.
However, after some time, life outside of Russia, and therefore marrying local beauties, made the more distant descendants of Yuri Andreyevich their warriors (despite constant recruiting for the squad with Russia) no longer completely Russian, and then completely non-Russian. After that, troubles began between the Horde and Russia.
What is characteristic is that a large number of the so-called “Tatars” in the traditional history left the Horde and moved to Russia. But everything falls into place, if we assume that those who were still Russian 5-6 generations ago were returning. And remembered that. Therefore, we don’t need to scrub us while trying to find a Tatar.

[KaPToC]

At some point in history, when rewriting it, many professions suddenly became nationalities, on paper, but we learn history from paperwork. So such nations as Varangians, Vikings, Tatars, Cossacks and many others appeared, glades suddenly became Poles, priests became Greeks, Ukrainians, Ukrainians.

[venaya]

Quote: KaPToC

At some point in history when rewriting it many professions suddenly became nationalities ... So nations like Varangians, Vikings, Tatars, Cossacks and many others appeared, glade suddenly became Poles, priests - Greeks, Ukrainians, Ukrainians.

It becomes pleasant that many are already beginning to realize this, but even here, on VO, sometimes such zombie articles like "Etruscans are not Russians" appear. The only thing I want to clarify is that NLP zombification often bears fruit, as many still believe that the term "Poles" comes from the word "field", which clearly does not correspond to the research conducted. After all, the Latin term "Polonia", both the alphabet and the concept itself, is alien for these places, that is, simply an occupation, or a consequence of conquests. The origin of this word is based on the ancient Russian word "full", that is, "production", "goods". Previously, this territory, part of Porusia, had the name "Volleva Rus", which is quite consistent with the current concept of "Porto-free", that is, a place for free trade, and even by slaves. I hope that in the future we will jointly be able to debunk commonly accepted misconceptions everywhere.

[Cap.Morgan]

Such a thing took place under False Dmitry I. In the closer past.
Godunov’s associates at some point refused to fight him and the Pretender (or maybe not) triumphantly entered Moscow. Or the return of Napoleon with about. St. Helena.

[black]

Reflections on the topic ... This is good. But genetics is a science. Articles on the topic of whether there was a TMI appeared back in 1995 in the Military + Historical Journal. Too much factual material has been accumulated to simply dismiss it.

[Turkir]

Horses mixed in a bunch, people ...

[Seal]

1. I.e. where the Mongols wander - there is Mongolia.

And what, do you think the Mongols or other nomads roam haphazardly? Only gypsies roam haphazardly. And even that is not all.
2.

Known examples of the Scythian dynasty of the kings of Medes? The same dynasty of the Parthian kingdom taxied and hung Lyuli Krasus in Scythian style. Kipchak dynasties are known ...

How are they "known"? What, there were some retinues left, such as a letter from the ruler of the Scythians to someone from those whom he respected with the words "My friend, come to visit. I have a holiday - a son was born. He will continue my dynasty." And on what basis is your confidence that there was no one "Krasus" a "Parthian dynasty" in Scythian way hung with lyulya? Or maybe the dynasty is Parthian, but porphyry?
3.

Someone asked the Chukchi whether they want to freeze in the far North?

But did anyone ask Arabs or Yemenis if they want to roast on their peninsula?
4.

And repeat the mantra: "There is no Mongoloid in Russians" ...

If geneticists have proved that they don’t, but individuals who don’t know about it all sing and mantras about the Mongoloid Russians, then why can't they answer in the same way?
5.

Compare B. Obama and A.S. Pushkin. The first semi-European. He had a second Negro in his kin in the n-th generation, and he became like a gypsy when he sunbathed in the sun.

Are you sure that A.S. Did Pushkin even have a Negro in his family? What, just because his ancestor Hannibal held the position of "arap" for some part of his life? So the Araps were called both Indians and Persians and Arabs !! And why would Hannibal suddenly develop mathematical abilities if he were a real Negro? And why did A.S. Pushkin himself in one of his poems about himself say that he can show, how can a faithful Jew be distinguished from the Orthodox?

[Spnsr]

you can still make a description of the Cossacks, or rather, those who were later called Cossacks, this is a people who did their own business, but at any moment could mount a horse and go on a military campaign ... then the women - women warriors, I will not emphasize the Amazons, but this is a retelling of my grandmother, the Ural Cossack, father, brothers, and her husband who served in Turkistan ....
yet, this is not from the words of the grandmother, she would tell me such a thing, but my mother, it was such that when the male husband went to war, the responsibility for the continuation of the family lay with the father of the warrior, it was not like the son left to fight, and the father immediately rushed to spud his wife, but if the son did not return, then the woman had to leave her son, and this was at the end of the year before last at the beginning of the last century ... the so-called polygamy, which in Islam was interpreted in its own way. .., you will not find it in the literature, it’s difficult to explain the reasons, maybe religion I held the qualification, fighting for the purity of religion, but I have no reason not to trust the retelling of my ancestors ....
and if you discard the Romanov interpretation of history, where the Cossacks are runaway peasants, and reasoned sensibly about the nature of the Cossacks, and bring in the interpretation of the author of the article, then the idea that the descendants of the horde army is the Cossacks is very obvious ...
and it could be Polovtsy and Pichenegs who suddenly disappeared somewhere

[RUSS]

Quote: SpnSr

that the descendants of the army of the horde, this is the Cossacks ...

The most common mistake is to consider that the Cossacks were completely Orthodox. In reality, everything was much more interesting. The bulk of the Cossacks, both Ukrainian and Russian, was certainly Orthodox, but ...
The part of the registry Cossacks consisted of the very real ERZ, which caused a bathhert among the anti-Semites who were not in the register. (more details, w: Jews in the Ukrainian Cossacks);
a considerable number of Cossacks in the Urals were Old Believers who professed pre-reform Orthodoxy, which, in fact, was not encouraged by the authorities, to put it mildly, but they still turned a blind eye to this Cossack fad;
part of the Zaporizhzhya Cossacks professed Arianism, a special unorthodox kind of Christianity, condemned as heresy. Where they got this faith from is not really known - either from the last Crimean Goths, or from the Bulgarians - legends are dark on this score. However, by the eighteenth century there were no Arians among the Cossacks, but there is unconfirmed information that secret Aryan communities remained in the Don and the Caucasus right up to the beginning of the XNUMXth century;
the Tatars-Meshcheryaks and Bashkirs entering the Orenburg army were, of course, Muslims;
the Kalmyks (sic!) entering this very Orenburg army professed, of course, Buddhism. True, then SUDDENLY somewhere everyone disappeared, but this is another matter;
Buddhism, of the same kind (Lamaism) as the Kalmyks professed the Buryats, who were part of the Transbaikal army;
but the Nagaybaks, members of the Orenburg army — the Turkic people, akin to the Tatars and Bashkirs — on the contrary, in the name of fulfilling mutually exclusive paragraphs, were Orthodox.
a little Cossack exotic: there were among the Cossacks and natural pagans (Tungus, Yakuts), which were part of the Siberian, Irkutsk, Yenisei, Trans-Baikal and Yakut regiments. It is clear, of course, that they took only the baptized, but even with the cross on their chest and with Orthodox names, these people continued to honor their gods. Part of the Terek and Don Cossacks professed the so-called “Saturday faith” - that is, while being formally Orthodox, they also observed part of the Jewish rites, for obvious reasons not advertising this. Another small part of the Don, Terek Cossacks professed real Judaism - and in its most archaic form, probably inherited from distant Khazar ancestors. This, too, was in every possible way hidden from strangers, but the anti-Semitic laws of tsarist Russia in relation to Jewish Cossacks were practically not respected - and the truth is, well, what kind of Cossacks are Semites? And how to take double Jewish tax from them when they have tax benefits? Finally, the most little-known and little-studied part of the Cossacks, the Astrakhan, professed another kind of Judaism - the so-called Karaism, recognizing only the Torah and not recognizing the Talmud, - something like the Jewish Old Believers.

[Spnsr]

Quote: RUSS

In fact, everything was much more interesting.

the description of nationalities in Russia began at the end of the 18th century, literally like the nationalities of the population of the entire planet, especially its Asian part and part of Europe, with the exception of the minority, which formed earlier and was most likely the cause of the collapse of large empires, for fear of being absorbed by these empires.
I will not say that those nationalities that lived on the territory of present-day Russia did not have names, but these names were more often tied to the locality, or to the city, like the Kazan Tatarav, Astrakhan Tatarav, and in general they were all just Tatara, because they lived in Tataria. .., as it can be said now, Moscow Russians, Crimean, etc.
as a justification I can give an example of modernity, this is Ukraine, a little earlier, Turkey, when there were both Yugoslavs and Czechoslovakians, who now, for whatever reason, have become those nationalities that are now present in those territories, including new ones ... because large united people are not needed ...
the separation of Pakistan from India in the last century led to the emergence of Pakistanis, and as in India and Pakistan, in Iraq and Iran there are still prerequisites for crushing, and in every state formation, there are these prerequisites ...
somewhere these prerequisites are indicated by religious views, somewhere inherent in the names of nationalities, nationalities of states in the neighborhood!
but the most important thing is that these prerequisites were laid in the middle of the late 17th-19th centuries, but rather as far back as the 20th century !, and not earlier, as everyone here is trying to assert ...
The prerequisites for such a statement lie in the emergence of Turkey and Ukraine in the 20th century, despite the fact that Ukraine as a subject of relations is being formed only now ....

[Rivares]

Quote: SpnSr

and if you discard the Romanov interpretation of history, where the Cossacks are runaway peasants, and reasoned sensibly about the nature of the Cossacks, and bring in the interpretation of the author of the article, then the idea that the descendants of the horde army is the Cossacks is very obvious ...

And the annalistic mention of the Ryazan Cossacks? In the stove)))

[Spnsr]

Quote: Rivares

And the annalistic mention of the Ryazan Cossacks? In the stove)))

and not only them! and so, each subject of the federation (read the Tatars) has its own power structures, here you have the Ryazan Tatara (read the Ryazan Cossacks, Kazan, Astrakhan) ....
I can still add about the firebox ....
if we interpret the horde as an order, then a modern example, the constituent entities of the Russian Federation have their own legislation, it is consistent with the federal one, but each constituent entity of the federation can be a horde — the Kazan Horde, the Astrakhan Horde, the Ryazan Horde, and so on, 87 and each has a prince who interprets the law and its position at its discretion ....

[Spnsr]

Quote: Rivares

A annalistic mention

a little clarification
now the yoke would be interpreted as a dictatorship
Tataria - the state, Tataria, it’s like now the Russians ...

[Riv]

Oh, lie! .. :)

There are no Ural Cossacks, and there cannot be any "Ural Cossacks" in the Urals now. This is a sad story, in fact. In 1917, the Ural army was the only Cossack army that remained loyal to the monarchy. It also fought the Reds to the very end. Many died in the battles of the Civil, and when it became clear that the Reds were winning, all the people withdrew from their habitable places. A transition to Persia was undertaken, away from the Bolsheviks. They were not pursued, but only every tenth, about five thousand people reached the shores of the Caspian.

Therefore, the Ural Cossacks no longer exist. None of those Cossacks returned to Russia; there is no one to revive him. And all modern attempts should be considered in the category of show-offs and clowning. So there is less imagination, a native heart.

[Spnsr]

Quote: Riv

Therefore, the Ural Cossacks no longer exist. None of those Cossacks returned to Russia; there is no one to revive him. And all modern attempts should be considered in the category of show-offs and clowning. So there is less imagination, a native heart.

Excuse me, are you conducting a dialogue with me?
if with me, then about the Ural Cossacks, I look, you are very knowledgeable! but it’s more like what you were doing stuffing now, otherwise I didn’t have a dialogue with you, as I was now an Iranian ....
and yet, there was talk about

Quote: Riv

revive

?
judging by how much you are aware of the Ural Cossacks, and judging by the reaction to the dialogue, a resident of the territory that is now called Kazakhstan! and which the Romanovs in the 18th century did not know what to call Nagayts, Kaisaks or Kalmyks, but in view of the Pugachev uprising, they decided, although they themselves were still confused for some time, and the Communists, because

Quote: Riv

In 1917, the Ural army was the only Cossack army that remained loyal to the monarchy. It fought against the Reds to the very end.

brought specifics to this question ...
but it’s not so simple when the Communists gave names to the republics of Turkestan, including the Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Turkmen, Tajiks who were already there, and in general created the territory that you just named

Quote: Riv

A transition was made to Persia, away from the Bolsheviks

...
you look carefully, maybe those Russians who are among you are the very Cossacks, and they have more reason to say that they belong to the Genghisides ...

[Riv]

Looked around. Clowns posing as Ural Cossacks were not found. No other suggestions? Then the question is closed.
Less lie.

[Spnsr]

Quote: Riv

Looked around. Clowns posing as Ural Cossacks were not found. No other suggestions? Then the question is closed.
Less lie.

you are not polite type!
and most importantly, the psychological moment of your koment tells me that you are trying to upset me with your insult, which can contribute to a change in the course of my thoughts, and the statement

Quote: Riv

Less lie.

this is an attempt to cover up your lies, you know, there is such a saying, the cap is lit on a thief, and that’s what this is about!
I didn’t say anything that would be contrary to reality, but you piled up three boxes of muti, that if you ask what you are talking about, you will get confused, at least one of your comments will already lead you out of the Mongol and make you Turk!
but if you go back two or three decades ago, there were still no Türks, but there were Türkic-speaking tribes! and these are not only people of Mongoloid appearance, but also quite Europioid, at least take modern Tatars!
if you carry something, then really accompany it with proportionate and objective facts of life! and do not jump from the direction of the interpretation of the material under discussion, to another interpretation ...

[Nikolay K]

Obviously, the invasion of Eastern Europe and Russia in 1236-1240 years. from the East was

Thank you, Samsonov Alexander, that at least you do not consider it the Vatican’s misinformation and the search for the West.
In general, your argumentation is "convincing": look at the current Mongols, could they have conquered half of the world. I think then ancient Greece was a myth, look at the poor Greeks, how could they give birth to so many philosophers. And there was no Roman conquest - look at these Macoronians. And the Egyptian pyramids are probably a provocation, built by order from the Vatican.

[voyaka uh]

"at least you don't think this is Vatican disinformation and a search for the West" ////

It remains to prove that the Vatican itself is the Mongoloid nomads (this is not difficult -
Samsonov’s methods)
and the picture will turn out smooth: the European-style East versus the Mongoloid West .

[Snow]

Samsonov's article MINUS!
You can look at this topic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXpB6se9QbM

[Penzuck]

Take a look at the modern map of the Finno-Ugric peoples. Some of them are explicit Mongoloids and they have an Ugric branch (Khanty + Mansi). the more Caucasian (Udmurts) and even more Caucasian (Erzi-Moksha) have different languages, while Finns of Estonians and Hungarians obviously have different languages ​​too.
We draw a finger on the map from Khantymantiysk_do_Permi_do Penza to Moscow, to Vologda, to Estonia. And in splendid isolation in the south - Hungary.
And why? Because the Hungarians are a nomadic people who passed through a wild field and grabbed the mountains. It is very difficult to gain a foothold in the steppe. Over time (X-XI centuries) the newcomers-Hungarians assimilated with the local population (Wallachians) and, having adopted many of their customs, culture, words of their languages, moved to a settled residence. And then, back in the 13th century, the yas were assimilated. And why are Hungarians not MONGOLOIDS? Although the closest relatives of the Khanty and Mansei? Where are Turkisms in Hungarian? Where are the Mongolian words? Where are the Slavic ones? where are the Scythians? Keep in mind that 7 Hungarian and (3 Khazar clans) 1 Kavarar tribe participated in the war of Byzantium and Bulgaria. Obviously, with such a number of "Turks" "Mansei" cannot be converted into "Finns". Considering that the Magyars served the Khazars, it means they could also get "white girls" from the Mordovians, Bulgars, Burtas, Slavs ... For 300 years they could turn white.

[Captain45]

Quote: Penzuck

more Caucasoid (Erzi-Moksha) other languages, the Finns of Estonians and Hungarians obviously also different.

Judging by the nickname, you are a resident of Penza or the Penza region, then you know Mordva-Erzya, and so you will be surprised, but Erzy, Finns and Hungarians have a very similar language, many words have the same sound and meaning and refer, as you noticed to Finno - Ugric group. So the Finns, Hungarians and Mordva-Erzya turn out to be one people, and some live in Scandinavia, others in Central Europe, and still others are closer to Asia.

[Penzuck]

Quote: Captain45

Judging by the nickname, you are a resident of Penza or the Penza region.,

Anto yes.

Quote: Captain45

you will be surprised

Anto no.

Quote: Captain45

as you noticed to the Finno-Ugric group.

Khanty (Mongoloids) + Mansi (Mongoloids) + Hungarians (Caucasians) - the "Ugric" part.
OTHER (ALL EUROPEOIDS) actually "Finnish" part.
Komi-Permyaks “Komi-Permyaks are below average height, have a weaker constitution than the native Russians; hair is predominantly blond, light brown or reddish, eyes are gray, nose is often upturned, face is wide, beard is small, although there are individuals and with dark brown hair, brown eyes, dark skin, a longer face and thin nose ”[6].

[Rivares]

Quote: Penzuck

Khanty (Mongoloids) + Mansi (Mongoloids) + Hungarians (Caucasians) - the "Ugric" part.
OTHER (ALL EUROPEOIDS) actually "Finnish" part.

Guys, according to the haplotype, you can’t divide these ethnic groups. Look at the map for mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA). This is DNA that is transmitted only through the mother. Then the situation will clear up))

[Penzuck]

Quote: Rivares

Guys, according to the haplotype, you can’t divide these ethnic groups. Look at the map for mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA). This is DNA that is transmitted only through the mother. Then the situation will clear up))

It does not make sense. For the people perish when they lose their tongue.

[Rivares]

Quote: Penzuck

This makes no sense. For the people perish when they lose their tongue

Very controversial statement. The original Russian language was reduced 3 times, the annals of 1100 are few who can read, but the people are alive ...

[Penzuck]

Quote: Rivares

Aboriginal Russian language 3 times reduced

1. "A very controversial statement" -

Quote: Rivares

few people can read the chronicle vault of 1100 of the year

2. The road will be overcome by a walker

Quote: Rivares

but the people are alive ...

3. Do you deny language development? Do you deny the development of the people? Is not Russian Slavic?

[Seal]

It does not make sense. For the people perish when they lose their tongue.

The first thing the children hear is the words of the mother. In the language of mothers.

[Penzuck]

Quote: Seal

The first thing the children hear is the words of the mother. In the language of mothers.

De Slavs-Aryans-Scythians came to precisely mean, they took for themselves the wives of the Khantymans, and voila: the Hungarians.

[Turkir]

Here are a few examples of Slavic words - tools and household items included in the Hungarian language: kasza - braid; gereblye - rake; lapat - shovel; veder - bucket; Bogopa - harrow; szan - sled; patko - horseshoe; jarom - yoke;
palca - stick; szita - sieve; ladik - boat (boat); abrencs -
hoop; rosta - sieve; szekercse - an ax; jaszol - yasla;
szena - hay; szalma - straw, etc.
Here are the names of some plants: ugorka - cucumber; 1ep - flax; t a k - poppy; kalasz - spike; kaposzta - cabbage; cseresznye - sweet cherry; dinye — melon; bab - bean; retek - radish; szilva - plum; javor - sycamore. Of particular interest is the word “yk” - a beech, which some Normans consider to be absent from the Slavs - the Hungarian word clearly shows that at the beginning of the XNUMXth century it was an ordinary folk “Russian” word on the southern slopes of the Carpathians.
We also give the names of some animals: pava - pava; bolha - flea; raj - swarm (of bees); vidra - otter; vereb - sparrow; szuka—; medva - a bear (not the Ukrainian "witch"), vaiju - a crow; szarka — magpie; galamb - dove; bivaly - buffalo; rbc - spider, etc.
Interesting words related to Christianity: rar - pop; piispok - bishop (Polish "biskup"); kereszt - cross: angyal - angel; oltar - the altar; abrazat - image; kereszteny - baptized, i.e. Christian; szent kereszt - holy cross; pogany - (pagan); pokel - hell (Ukrainian.) \ konyv - book.
Similar words clearly show that Christianity penetrated the Hungarians through the Slavs. udvar - yard (it is clear that the concept of “yard” was completely alien to the nomad, and he borrowed it from his settled neighbors); ulcza - street;
korcsma — tavern; halom — a hill; beszed - conversation; vacsora - supper (Ukrainian.) \ gat - gat; gatolni - to drive; ganaj - pus; szalona - corned beef; kasa - porridge5; ebed - lunch; pecsenye - cookies; zsir - fat; malaszt - mercy; borotwa - razor;
szomszed - neighbor; lab - paw; nyavalya - bondage; rab - slave; baba - woman (childbirth perpetrator); szolga - servant; iga - yoke; goromba - rude; gomba - lip (it is interesting that Ukrainians still have a mocking expression: "shchi gambi inflating" - obviously, in ancient times, "lip" was pronounced "gemba"); zalog - pledge (in Ukrainian "squad");
szikra - spark; kalacs - kalach (Ukrainian "kolach", however, is more correct, as it comes from the word "kolo", "circle"); kavasz - kvass (a word known since Attila!); csorda - a series (Ukrainian "herd"); cseber - a bucket (in Ukrainian, “tseberko”); olaj - olea (vegetable oil); salata - salad
(the word is not Slavic, but, obviously, borrowed by the Hungarians through the Slavs).
Interesting names of professions: takacs - weaver; kalapacs - riveter; kovacs - koval (blacksmith)
Etc.

[Penzuck]

Quote: Turkir

Here are a few examples of Slavic words - tools and household items included in the Hungarian language:

Thanks for the comment.

[Pig]

"" Recently it was said on Ryong TV that Atilla was blond and the Huns were also fair. "
and on ren-tv they say that the Egyptian pyramids were built by aliens!
as for the Huns ...
those Huns that reached the western border of Rome were very different from those who, 300 years before, had begun a campaign to the west ...
in principle, they only have the same name "Huns", but otherwise it was a completely different people

[Vend]

However, the question is who are the "Mongol-Tatars"?

The answer is simple, the horde of the Mongols consisted not only of the Mongols, but of the conquered peoples.

How could the semi-wild shepherds (albeit warlike) crush such developed powers as China, Khorezm, the Tangut kingdom

And how could the vandals, Goths, Huns, etc., crush the Roman Empire? It is common for any young people to learn from a more developed neighbor. The Romans generally borrowed from their neighbors, even those that were lower in development.

[ver_]

... easy and simple - the Roman Empire did not exist .. The newly-born state formations come up with ancient stories of origin and development .. writing off from the history of other states ..

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: Wend

And how could the vandals, Goths, Huns, etc., crush the Roman Empire?

I want to add that at the final stage, the Roman Empire was also finished off by the Slavs.
But....
The last nail in the coffin of civilized Romans was driven by the Avars (which are mentioned in the Russian chronicles as mods).
It was the invasion of the nomadic Avars that contributed to the departure of the Slavs from their original places.
And those Avars came from the vast expanses of Asia. It is not known where it is from, because there were no other mentions in the history besides those that were, they fought with the Roman Empire, and at times very successfully, entering into a military alliance with the Slavs, or conducting military operations against them.
The invasion of nomadic tribes under a common beginning from Asia (which at that time began beyond the Tanais-Don River) within Europe long before the arrival of the Tatar-Mongol along the same route.
Hence the question - is the invasion of Obrov-Avars also a myth?
Are there too many divorced self-declared Internet acadicians who are ready to spit on the classic story from a high bell tower, i.e. in the Internet?

[RUSS]

Quote: ovod84

It sounds like nonsense. Mongols had no good traditions.

Most confusing and alarming is the comparison that, even now, Mongolia is a poor and sparsely populated country, and about 900 years ago, in general, savages, BUT as an example Ancient Egypt, this empire waged aggressive wars in northern Africa and the Middle East at that time had a highly developed culture and a religion, the religion of which has been worshiped for several millennia, longer than Christianity as a whole. So what was Egypt like and what is it now? The same thing about Macedonia under Alexander who seized the floor of the World, and where is Macedonia now, and in general even mediocre silent Greece? Or Rome? Where is that great Rome? The Italians remained, who do not know how to fight, unlike their ancestors.

[KaPToC]

No need to refer to the ancient world as an argument, it is completely invented. The younger the state - the more ancient history it writes to itself, until recently, the most ancient were Jews, then most recently the most ancient were Ukrainians.

[Simon]

Story, friend, not bullshit! They work on it and study it. We must know our roots!

[Alexey-74]

You are following the official version. You know what I want to say having two higher educations (one historical), and also after many personal research - I still very much doubt the "Mongol-Tatar" Yoke, as it is customary to classically consider it ... believe me, there are a lot of controversial points, including the ethnic group of the so-called Mongols

[Seal]

let's take the Huns who also traveled the same path and came to Europe

And how are you going to take them, if the official academic science does not at all equate those near-Chinese "Huns" and European "Huns".

[Pig]

a set of unscientific nonsense with Ren-tv ... on a site claiming to be serious, you can’t post such nonsense!
"" "In the burial grounds of the Golden Horde, only the bones of Caucasians are found. This is confirmed by written sources, as well as drawings: they describe the warriors-" Mongols "of European appearance - blond hair, light eyes (gray, blue), tall." "
I would like a reference to the materials ... where have such burial grounds unearthed?
"" "Sources paint Genghis Khan tall, with a luxurious long beard, with" lynx ", green-yellow eyes" ""
those. does not deny that Genghis Khan was a Mongoloid?
comparing the Mongols who came to Russia in the 13th century and the "Mongols" of the time of the Mamayev massacre is at least not correct ...
"" "Mongolian names Bayan (conqueror of South China), Temuchin-Chemuchin, Batu, Berke, Sebeday, Ogedei-Guess, Mamai, Chagatai-Chagadai, Borodai-Borondai, etc. are not Mongolian names. They clearly belong to the Scythian tradition "" "
the author heard something about the "Scythian-Siberian world"?
"" The "Mongols" who came to Russia were typical representatives of the Caucasian race, the white race. There were no anthropological differences between the Polovtsy, "Mongols" and the Russians of Kiev and Ryazan.
I would like to know what such confidence is based on? from what sources is this taken? evidence, in short ...

[Cap.Morgan]

I would like to ask you a question.
If you throw a bunch of links now, will this be proof for you, or will you require links to links?
The author relies on simple logic.
The army of Genghis Khan would simply eat all the oats and Turkish delight in the area. Hold her on a campaign for at least a week. Or the entire army did not exceed several thousand. But with a small army, vast enemy lands cannot be conquered. Logic is the queen of evidence. And not the fabrications of swindlers from history, writing for the sake of momentary profit.

[Pig]

It has already been proven that the "Hordes of Genghis Khan" were not so "huge" ... the Mongols, therefore, became one of the most effective conquerors because they took into account all these feeding problems!
for example, the Batu horde that rolled up North-Eastern Russia numbered no more than 40-50 thousand soldiers
so a reference to the studio! yes, the link is not anti-scientific sites where they generate such nonsense, but to the official ones - where it is indicated who dug the burial grounds, where and when, as well as a link to the mentioned "written" sources ...

[andj61]

Quote: Pig

for example, the Batu horde that rolled up North-Eastern Russia numbered no more than 40-50 thousand soldiers

In fact, Chivilikhin in his novel-essay "Memory" examines this moment about the "countless" troops of nomads and comes to the conclusion that this simply did not happen. He takes a well-known episode - the siege of Kozelsk by Batu's troops. He comes to the conclusion that there can be no question of any tens of thousands there. And so much would not fit near the city, and it is impossible to feed horses and people, especially in winter - and the siege lasted more than a month.
Anyway, 30 troops are very, very many. Professional cavalrymen — and such were still encountered in the 000s and 70s of the 80th century, said that the cavalry division — 20–5 thousand during the war — could not go along the steppe with a front of 7 km for more than a day — everything was trampled on, finding feed going for advanced was difficult, it was possible to feed the horses only with their portable forage. And if there were not 1, but 5? 000 30? or 000? And if this is not the steppe, but there are very few forests and roads? The population is also small and fodder with the invaders to share the desire does not burn? How to feed horses for a long time? Therefore, the raids were carried out mainly after the harvest, and if the raid deep into the country, then in the winter after freezing, they walked along the frozen rivers.
Chivilikhin generally believes that the army of Batu numbered far less than 10, and left with the victors with a loot in general a thousand or two ..

[Pig]

"" He takes a well-known episode - the siege of Kozelsk by the troops of Batu ""
Kozelsk was besieged not by the whole Horde but just by one of the units

[ver_]

.. the siege of Kozelsk by the army of Khan Batu = Yaroslav Vsevolodovich was caused by the epidemic in Kozelsk and it was not his goal to take the city; the goal was to burn and prevent infection in other cities ..

[andj61]

Quote: Pig

"" He takes a well-known episode - the siege of Kozelsk by the troops of Batu ""
Kozelsk was besieged not by the whole Horde but just by one of the units

There was Batu - and the whole Horde came there. Then the detachments dispersed from the city - it was also necessary to feed themselves, but in winter it was not so easy to do this, especially since they were sitting in one place.

Quote: ver_

.. the siege of Kozelsk by the army of Khan Batu = Yaroslav Vsevolodovich was caused by the epidemic in Kozelsk and it was not his goal to take the city; the goal was to burn and prevent infection in other cities ..

Winter epidemic? This is something new ... Usually all epidemics happened in spring, summer, autumn.
Moreover, in order to simply burn down the city, it was not necessary to plunder it first. And the goal here was one - to get "good", food, fodder for horses. And to engage in battle with the infected meant to be infected yourself. This version of Nosovsky-Fomenko is generally extremely weak. Okay, there would be only Kozelsk, but after all, a bunch of cities were taken "on the spear"! Was it an epidemic too?

[kumaxa]

and they forget the physiology of the human body, no matter how skillful and hardy the rider is, what a comfortable saddle you have, and the spine and small fellow will remind of themselves after a day's jump.

[Balagan]

Of these 40 thousand Mongols themselves, there was, I do not remember, a figure, but less than 10%.

[Seal]

for example, the Batu horde that rolled up North-Eastern Russia numbered no more than 40-50 thousand soldiers

Is this according to Genesis Khan’s approved staffing table?

[Snow]

Read about the tactics of nomadic conquests. The last conquest of China by the Manchus is well described in history.

[Seal]

And that the Manchus are already nomads? But what about the traditional version of the story, which claims that the Manchu are Jurchen?
Initially, the Jurchen culture was formed in the basin of the Sungari and Amur rivers. However, in ancient times, Amur was not regarded as a single water artery, but it was believed that its upper and middle course is an inflow of Sungari. Lower Amur is a continuation of the Sungari, which flows into the sea.
Jurchen settlements.
The Jurchen lived in un fortified and fortified settlements (hillforts), which were usually located along river banks. Settlements are settlements fortified with ramparts and moats. In the Amur Region, Jurchen dwellings were excavated on the hillforts of Mount Shapka (village of Poyarkovo), Kuchugury (village of Markovo), Novopetrovskoye. The Jurchens built fortified settlements of various types. It depended on the landscape and fortification traditions that the builders followed, drawing on the experience of neighboring peoples: Bohai, Koreans, Khitan, and Chinese. The Jurchen household was diversified. They bred pigs, horses, bulls, dogs. They were also engaged in agriculture, plowed the land using the draft power of animals. The hunt was not forgotten either. They hunted Manchurian deer, moose, goats, bears, tigers, wild boars, wolves, pheasants. An important place in the Jurchen's economy was occupied by fishing, as evidenced by ceramic and stone sinkers and fishing hooks found on the monuments. They also hunted by gathering, flight-keeping, they mined gold and river pearls.

[Snow]

Author PLUS! Article MINUS!
Such articles are possible only against the background of a deterioration in the quality of education in the country. Here are all sorts of Zadornovs and appear.

[guzik007]

Such articles are possible only against the background of a deterioration in the quality of education in the country. Here are all sorts of Zadornovs and appear.
--------------------------------
and the earth rests on three pillars: =)
Unfortunately, the bony thinking of most people rejects any thoughts and ideas that break their habitual ideas about the world that have been drilled into their heads since childhood. they, like ostriches, hide their heads in the cozy sand, stubbornly refusing to accept anything new. This is what the "Zadornovs" use, trivializing really fresh data that could give a new look at their history.
The very same Petukhov, with all the innovative thought that was certainly present in his works, gave reason to not take his work seriously. You think where it came from: the Etruscans are Russians? Yes, all the same Roosters.
But in our time, many really serious scientists and scientific schools have doubted that "Mongols" are not exactly "Mongols".

[Pig]

"" many have doubted in our time ""
doubted but did not prove! and until it is proven all this is fiction

[guzik007]

"in our time many have doubted" "
doubted but did not prove! and until it is proven all this is fiction
-------------------------------------------------- -----------------
Dear pig, hmm, .. you look like it .. (smacks of Freudianism, because the neck of the pigs is horizontal and the stars cannot see it). So, dear Pig. As for the evidence, well, look in the internet for the work of Novosibirsk archaeologists on this topic-8000 skulls of their Siberian mounds of that era, and not one Mongoloid. Do you need material evidence? Well, why do you think that something should be presented to you on a silver platter. Seek, and ye shall find.

[Pig]

"" -8000 skulls of their Siberian burial mounds of that era ""
what TOY era ??? Or do you mean BEFORE the Mongolian population? In Siberia, many different people lived before the Mongols!
"Why do you think that you should bring something on a silver platter" "
Ha! I believe that a person should be responsible for his words! and even more so if he puts them on public display!
otherwise you ask to prove what was written and they start to drive you a blizzard about Freud and the stars;) you still show your ren-tv as "proof" ...

[KaPToC]

Is it a respected video, those who did not doubt, also did not prove anything, historians create history without any evidence. Axiomatics is inherent in science; history does not have it. History is based on the authority of previous historians, and not on some kind of scientific basis and evidence. The main and only proof of the historian is the authority of another historian.

[andj61]

Quote: KaPToC

Is it a respected video, those who did not doubt, also did not prove anything, historians create history without any evidence. Axiomatics is inherent in science; history does not have it. History is based on the authority of previous historians, and not on some kind of scientific basis and evidence. The main and only proof of the historian is the authority of another historian.

To the very point! There is a version of an authoritative historian - they repeated it hundreds of times twice, you see - this is not a version, but an axiom! Moreover, the one to dispute is an unscientific heresy ... So there is an axiomatics in history, only not supported by anything, except for the results of excavations. But excavation is such a thing. Imagine if a landfill near a major city in a thousand years, archaeologists dig up?
And what conclusions can be made? In principle - whatever!

[ver_]

..elementary, Watson is an example of a ruin .. the history of the ancient world is taught at school and zombies of children ..

[venaya]

"The myth of the" Mongols from Mongolia in Russia "is the most ambitious and monstrous provocation of the Vatican and the West as a whole against Russia"

I fully support the article itself and the position of the author! The article is a definite plus (+).
A huge number of inconsistencies, the so-called official or traditional history, in this article is almost completely explained by the normal scientific language, without any traditional in this case, substitution of concepts, which clearly stands out this author.

[BIP PS FSB RF]

Fomenkoids Otake!

[guzik007]

Fomenkoids Otake!
---------------------
and you do not confuse horseradish with a finger. The article does not refer to Fomenko’s fabrications. Personally, I think that he was very confused with the brahms of his mathematics. but 10 percent in his work makes you think. For the logic is still traceable, but, unfortunately, there are a lot of overlaps.

[Oldwiser]

Quote: guzik007

but, unfortunately, there are a lot of overlaps

And especially the appeal to the Bible (Egypt = Babylon = Assyria = MOSH), as the last argument, on the alleged basis that

European rebels-reformers distorted and rewrote world and Russian history, but left <in the form of the Bible> a more or less correct version - "for the consecrated"

[Oldwiser]

Quote: guzik007

but, unfortunately, there are a lot of overlaps

And especially the appeal to the Bible (Egypt = Babylon = Assyria = MOSH), as the last argument, on the alleged basis that

European rebels-reformers distorted and rewrote world and Russian history, but left <in the form of the Bible> a more or less correct version - "for the consecrated"

[Snow]

The article is good only for realizing the feeling of national greatness "that we have been lied to all our lives."
It is unfortunate that such an Author as Samsonov writes such a fucking thing.
You say "inconsistencies in history"? Are you a historian to judge this? - You're just repeating. Read academicians, not charlatans, read those who own real scientific works, not thin ones. books, read to those who excavate, etc.

[Pig]

I'm afraid you will not understand here

[Seal]

Correctly afraid. Stupid statements are not welcome here.

[guzik007]

Snow

. Read academics,
-------------------------
Well, about many of the noneshnie academicians I can advise one thing, read the brilliant books from the Forbidden Archeology cycle. It clearly explains how and why stunning finds are gathering dust in storerooms, how scientists who dare "encroach on the foundations" are hounded and driven away.
I understand academics — admit the facts — and you admit that all your regalia and labors are nothing more than waste paper.

[ver_]

..history is not science ..

[Seal]

Are you a historian to judge this?

You see, Mr. Snow, what's the problem. 99% of history consists of military operations, troop movements (campaigns), preparation for military operations ... and the like, in general, with everything related to military operations. Can you personally name at least one "historian" who has at least a basic military education? And at least one historian with a higher military education?
So what kind of devil are all these utter ignoramuses in military affairs undertaking to explain to all of us how the "army of Alexander the Great" fought there. And what kind of devil do you indulge in this?
Maybe historians give their historical academic works on issues related to the description of ancient conquests and campaigns before they are sent to print for review at the Academy of the General Staff? Yeah, we ran away. Although they are historians, even they have the intelligence not to give their "historical works" for examination to professionals.

Peaceful history largely consists of the development of painting, sculpture, architecture and so on.
Can you personally name at least one historian who is at least a little recognized artist, sculptor, architect or just a builder?

Another story consists of the development of medicine, chemistry, physics, astronomy and cartography, and so on.

You personally can name at least one historian who is at least a little recognized physician, chemist, physicist, astronomer or cartographer.

I'm not talking about the history of shipbuilding. I guarantee you that none of the historians, even those who in their academic books extensively discuss the advantages of small Athenian ships versus clumsy Persian ones, is not closely related either to shipbuilding or to navigation (navigation).

[saruman]

Yes ... Most commentators apparently taught history on the table of contents of school books and on television.

Quote: venaya

A huge number of inconsistencies, the so-called official or whatever traditional history

Historical science studies "a huge number of inconsistencies" just by scientific methods, and does not engage in "logical" adjustment to its fantasies, like Fomenko-Nosovsky. Samsonov - to the same place, a fighter with "windmills". They fight myths that they themselves create. The Mongol-Tatar invasion and yoke are presented by cartoons and films for children ...

[saruman]

Yes ... Most commentators apparently taught history on the table of contents of school books and on television.

Quote: venaya

A huge number of inconsistencies, the so-called official or whatever traditional history

Historical science studies "a huge number of inconsistencies" just by scientific methods, and does not engage in "logical" adjustment to its fantasies, like Fomenko-Nosovsky. Samsonov - to the same place, a fighter with "windmills". They fight myths that they themselves create. The Mongol-Tatar invasion and yoke are presented by cartoons and films for children ...

[Pig]

"" taught history from the table of contents of school textbooks and on TV ""
Ren-TV should be banned! because the damage from the "activity" of this channel is colossal ... breeds obscurantists on an industrial scale

[Seal]

Historical science (damn, already ridiculous), in your opinion, what is the quintessence of all other sciences? And if it’s not, then what kind of devil does she undertake to explain to us in which she herself does not understand anything?

99% of history consists of military operations, troop movements (campaigns), preparation for military operations .. and the like, in general, with everything related to military operations. Can you personally name at least one "historian" who has at least a basic military education? And at least one historian with a higher military education?
So what kind of devil are all these utter ignoramuses in military affairs undertaking to explain to all of us how the "army of Alexander the Great" fought there. And what kind of devil do you indulge in this?
Maybe historians give their historical academic works on issues related to the description of ancient conquests and campaigns before they are sent to print for review at the Academy of the General Staff? Yeah, we ran away. Although they are historians, even they have the intelligence not to give their "historical works" for examination to professionals.

Peaceful history largely consists of the development of painting, sculpture, architecture and so on.
Can you personally name at least one historian who is at least a little recognized artist, sculptor, architect or just a builder?

Another story consists of the development of medicine, chemistry, physics, astronomy and cartography, and so on.

You personally can name at least one historian who is at least a little recognized physician, chemist, physicist, astronomer or cartographer.

I'm not talking about the history of shipbuilding. I guarantee you that none of the historians, even those who in their academic books extensively discuss the advantages of small Athenian ships versus clumsy Persian ones, is not closely related either to shipbuilding or to navigation (navigation).

[Andrey Yuryevich]

every writer, historian, simply contemporary, interprets events in his own way ... therefore, we will never know the truth. It will always be "somewhere nearby."

[venaya]

I assure you, usually both writers and historians are financed by someone or have any other effective impact on them, so they should not seek the truth. Scientific research is another matter. It does not always succeed in controlling the interested parties. It is better to rely on these researchers and rely on it, it will be more reliable.

[Andrey Yuryevich]

Quote: venaya

Scientific research is another matter. It does not always succeed in controlling the interested parties. It is better to rely on these researchers and rely on it, it will be more reliable.

what is the "scientific research" based on? - on the same manuscripts and manuscripts, in which not necessarily reliable facts are stated, the circle has closed ...

[venaya]

Quote: Andrey Yurievich

what is the "scientific research" based on? - on the same manuscripts and manuscripts, in which not necessarily reliable facts are stated, the circle has closed ...

Of course not and no! Last year's fires in scientific libraries in Moscow and Washington only confirm the experience of many thousands of years that it is simply unacceptable to rely on fire-hazardous and easily falsified sources of "information" now. Fortunately for us, in the modern world there are already other, new methods of analysis and research of our past, they are fundamentally impossible to forge, as has been practiced for a very long time. So the vicious circle is opening now. Here it is important to find loopholes for publications for a wide range of interested people, and in this matter, there are still quite significant difficulties. I hope that in the course of time these problems will be gradually overcome, it really takes effort and even courage.

[Andrey Yuryevich]

Quote: venaya

fires in science libraries

and the fires earlier, all over the world, do not tell you anything, and the loss of the Alexandria Library? let's be on our toes: after a certain time, archaeologists find the Americans' interpretation of the "victory in the 2nd MV", and our archival data disappears forever ... what the descendants will know ??? right ... the Americans won ... (well, that's it, offhand ) this is how history is distorted ... I won't say how many times a Bible census is suspected ... in the end: we know what we know.

[venaya]

I did not understand this comment. After all, this is exactly what I am writing about. That the Bible, the oldest reliable instance no more than 400 years old, is not found older. Hence, talking about earlier Christianity is generally not right. The same story is with libraries, so written sources on paper cannot, in principle, be the ultimate truth. Another matter is different sources of information, the same genetics, archeology, geology and, more recently, the meteorology of the past millennia provide much more reliable information that cannot be trusted. And what is written with a pen or easily burns out, or is subject to serious correction of interested parties, that is, fakes. So I don’t intend to trust book ravings sucked out of my finger, not confirmed by other reliable sources of information. But to deny absolutely everything - this is also an unacceptable extreme, if there are new sources of information, for example archaeological, they should always be taken into account. So we still have some reliable knowledge, for example, factories built under Stalin and a huge country.

[ver_]

... to the article about the birds: the Ivan the Terrible library disappeared during the Romanov era, the Germans wrote the history of Russia by order of Tsar Peter, during his reign many church books were seized and frescoes were cut down ..
The Bible writes about Sodom and Gomor, a volcano destroyed by God, the punishment of God for sins .. There is a small obelisk with a date - 1648 - shortly before the birth of Peter - so the Bible was written later ..

[Oldwiser]

Quote: ver_

There is a small obelisk with a date of 1648

This is where, after all, in Sodom? or in Gomorrah?
Judging by the Bible, it’s like different geographical objects

[Oldwiser]

Quote: ver_

There is a small obelisk with a date of 1648

This is where, after all, in Sodom? or in Gomorrah?
Judging by the Bible, it’s like different geographical objects

[Mr. Pippers]

Quote: ver_

the history of Russia was written by the Germans by order of Tsar Peter

Yes, how much is already possible - well, then we did not have educated people capable of writing the same story or building a ship - what else did "Petram" do, how to invite specialists from abroad and study there first!
Yes, these "Germans" built Academies-Universities for us, but we still were mostly illiterate until the middle of the 20th century, so now we should be offended that the "Germans" wrote history to us, if we have such a "great" the story was that we ourselves could not even write it!

[Mr. Pippers]

Quote: Andrey Yurievich

archaeologists find the American interpretation of the "victory in the 2nd MV", and our archival data disappears forever

The data of the Americans is practically no different from ours - if we are talking about history, of course, and not "news" on political resources.

[Pig]

"" every writer, historian, simply contemporary, interprets events in his own way ... ""
this is the difference between SCIENCE and idle speculation - in SCIENCE a free interpretation of events is not allowed! SCIENCE operates with proven facts and does not allow formulations like "maybe" and "probably" ...
if someone has a theory different from the official version - he must PROVE it !!! prove it in the established manner using sources and facts ...
but here is just a bunch of words, with tugged, torn out of context and unconfirmed "facts" ...
Naturally, there are many inconsistencies in the official historical science - this is due to the fact that history as a science began to develop recently - from the end of the 19th century. - but if in the official science they write "no data" or "unknown", then similar authors replace historical facts with their own idle fictions and in order to fog up they write something like: "official science is lying !!!"
there are a lot of white spots in history and such false scientists as Fomenko very cleverly use this ...
this is the Russian version of Svidomism ("scientists are lying to you, but we know for sure!")
want to be in the know? buy yourself a textbook on archeology (you can download it online) - you will learn a lot of new things!
about such "research" only harm because mislead unprepared people

[Sweles]

Quote: Pig

there are a lot of white spots in history and such false scientists as Fomenko very cleverly use this ...
this is the Russian version of Svidomism ("scientists are lying to you, but we know for sure!")

you’d like to cover your uncle’s mouth, since you can’t say not only smart, but your own ...

Quote: Pig

buy yourself a textbook on archeology (you can download it online) - you will learn a lot of new things!
about such "research" only harm because mislead unprepared people

from the textbook of archeology Sarai is the capital of the Golden Horde, according to all the manuscripts-sources a huge, rich city is the center of the world, and on the excavations there is a pile of broken bricks without any historical reference to anything or the famous Karakorum is the capital of the Mongol Empire, so it does not exist at all, as well as the "Tatar-Mongol empire" itself ...

[Pig]

"" You should cover your uncle's mouth, since you cannot say not only smart, but also your own ... ""
with this phrase you have proved that you have NO intelligible arguments!
The "Golden Horde" exists, but the "Tatar-Mongol empire" does not!
but the fact that they didn’t find Karakorum proves nothing! Troy was also searched for a long time ...
I tell you: EVIDENCE is needed and not idle inventions ...

[Sweles]

Quote: Pig

but the fact that they didn’t find Karakorum proves nothing! Troy was also searched for a long time ...

and how many more years will you have enough to find a karakorum 50, or will you handle up to 20g?
Andrei Schliemann, a Jew, a charlatan, a falsifier, first robbed the Russian army, then stamped gold trinkets with this money, passed it off as a "priam's treasure", found ruins on the turret, since there is a lot of that and here is a "troya" for you, and then he stamped another bunsulets and "opened" the "Minoan" palace, at least it would have stopped, otherwise he would have "discovered" something to the delight of the Tradicians ...

[Pig]

"" Andrey Schliemann, a Jew, a charlatan, a falsifier "
Oh yeah baby! everything is clear with you ... in principle, you could guess by nickname

[Sweles]

Quote: Pig

"Andrey Schliemann, a Jew, a charlatan, a falsifier"
Oh yeah baby! everything is clear with you ... in principle, you could guess by nickname

do you disagree with something uncle?

[KaPToC]

Schliemann is undoubtedly a great man, because he found a city invented by the writer to surpass it in grandeur you need to find the state and empire of the moon.

[andj61]

Quote: KaPToC

Schliemann is undoubtedly a great man, because he found a city invented by the writer to surpass it in grandeur you need to find the state and empire of the moon.

You can still dig up Hogwarts ...

[Mr. Pipper]

Quote: Sveles

you would uncle to cover her mouth

Bravo!
You have once again demonstrated to all of us the true face and educational level of "alternatives"

[What a]

The study of human genes is the most accurate science that can answer all questions of history, for example, the Spaniards turned out to be 80% Arabs, although officially they consider themselves Europeans.

[PKK]

Finally, the first more or less adequate article about those times. But the same one suffers from unnecessary accuracy and assertions. It can be said for sure that the war was always and the people mixed up quickly. It is known that there were two Center of the Force, one in Europe, the second in Tartary, old land was called Siberia. Personally, I was disappointed that when Suvorov defeated Tartary, 14 regiments of the Don Cossacks went with him, I myself came from the Don, but not from the lands of the Don Army, but to the south, from the lands of Tartaria .. Then they defeated Yaitsky and Volzhsky Cossacks. Cossacks fought with the Cossacks.

[Mangel olys]

I have never found or read such nonsense. The author has a very "inquisitive" mind Who is the customer of the article?

[Shurkowski]

"such nonsense ..." - a reinforced concrete argument covered with a multi-meter layer of armor on top, nothing can break it through, no one has been able to break it yet. However, it is pointless to refute it due to its absence as such.

[Mangel olys]

Quote: Shurkowski

"such nonsense ..." - a reinforced concrete argument covered with a multi-meter layer of armor on top, nothing can break it through, no one has been able to break it yet. However, it is pointless to refute it due to its absence as such.

Here I am about the same!

Look how, even the Japanese know that Chyngyz Khan is not a Tatar, but a Russian epic hero.

[starshina wmf]

So the Japanese, in full measure, believe that the Russians treated them with a nuclear bomb.

[V.ic]

Quote: Mangel Olys

I have never found or read such HUNDRED.

Then read not "such nonsense":
"The author of the 9th century Abu-Abdalah Garnati wrote that in 0 AH the Prophet Muhammad sent three of his companions to the Bulgar, who supposedly miraculously healed the sick daughter of the Khan and stayed in Bulgar for three years, built mosques there and spread Islam. of these companions stayed in Bulgar and married the healed daughter of Khan Tuy-bik. " http://komanda-k.ru/%D2%A0%D0%B1%D82%0%D0%B1%D80%1%D81%1%D82%0%D0%B0%D0%BD/%DXNUMX% B
8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B0-%D1%8
3-%D0%B1%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80-%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80

[Mangel olys]

Quote: V.ic

Quote: Mangel Olys

I have never found or read such HUNDRED.

Then read not "such nonsense":
"The author of the 9th century Abu-Abdalah Garnati wrote that in 0 AH the Prophet Muhammad sent three of his companions to the Bulgar, who supposedly miraculously healed the sick daughter of the Khan and stayed in Bulgar for three years, built mosques there and spread Islam. of these companions stayed in Bulgar and married the healed daughter of Khan Tuy-bik. " http://komanda-k.ru/%D2%A0%D0%B1%D82%0%D0%B1%D80%1%D81%1%D82%0%D0%B0%D0%BD/%DXNUMX% B

8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B0-%D1%8

3-%D0%B1%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80-%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80

Eh Victor, what is this link, a link to an "authoritative source"? :

"The Wanderers were born on Lake Glukhom in June 1993, when the Team of young and green mattress-students of the Faculty of Accounting and Economics of the Kazan Financial Economic Institute in Kazan (UEF KFEI)"

collecting legends and tales.

[c3r]

The past is, of course, good, and the good past is even better. But to finish painting a picture of a great artist with your own hand is stupid. The history of Russia already has enough heroic and shameful moments that must be known and taken into account in moving into the future. All these epics arise from, for a weak official position on the history of the state. We cannot figure out in any way in the immediate Soviet past (ask on the street about the attitude towards such a statesman as Stalin and you will not get a definite answer), but here we swung to the times of ancient Russia and the Horde. fantasy style is pleasant and understandable from a "scientific point of view", but look at neighboring Ukraine, where the distortion of traditional history gives rise to nightmares!

[Griboedoff]

They knead porridge ... Everyone is trying to paint the antiquity of their peoples. For me, it is extremely difficult to talk about ethnic roots on the territory of the great steppes that stretch from China to the Alps. The peoples mixed so many times and so high quality that the Kazan Tatar genetically turns out to be a hodgepodge of the millennium that has formed from various nations.
The same is about the Mongols who came to Russia. In general, even classical history does not claim that these were the Mongols who, decades before, started from the Mongolian steppes. After all, not only thanks to some unique military technology, the Mongols captured so much, but also because they were religiously tolerant and successfully attracted ordinary people to their side (and not always in humane ways). It is obvious that those "Mongols" who came to Russia were already a hodgepodge of steppe and Central Asians, in which ethnic Mongols constituted only a small part.

[ovod84]

I agree with you. I think there, along with the Mongols, there were many other peoples from the occupied countries. for example, Batu’s campaign in Europe, where the Mongols included regiments of the Galician prince Daniil Romanovich.

[venaya]

An amazing attachment to the term "Mongol", which appeared only in the XNUMXth century, before that it had never been encountered anywhere. There was an "Empire of the Great Mughals", there are reliable sources about this, but it should be borne in mind that in this empire the imperial language was the dialect of the Russian language, the language and writing of Sanskrit, or rather its more modern form, the Hindi language, which is used and even is still the state language. ... So the very term "Mongol" arose in the minds of cabinet prefesors at the direction of the customers. By the way, in the XIII century, the tribes living there now did not live in the territory of modern Mongolia, they came there much later, around the XVII - XVIII centuries, there are scientific studies on this. So it is in no way competent to use the term "Mongol" to refer to the people of the XNUMXth century, there were no such people at that time.

[Gorinich]

The first sober comment.

[Cap.Morgan]

Quote: Griboedoff

They knead porridge ... Everyone is trying to paint the antiquity of their peoples. For me, it is extremely difficult to talk about ethnic roots on the territory of the great steppes that stretch from China to the Alps. The peoples mixed so many times and so high quality that the Kazan Tatar genetically turns out to be a hodgepodge of the millennium that has formed from various nations.
The same is about the Mongols who came to Russia. In general, even classical history does not claim that these were the Mongols who, decades before, started from the Mongolian steppes. After all, not only thanks to some unique military technology, the Mongols captured so much, but also because they were religiously tolerant and successfully attracted ordinary people to their side (and not always in humane ways). It is obvious that those "Mongols" who came to Russia were already a hodgepodge of steppe and Central Asians, in which ethnic Mongols constituted only a small part.

Classical history just claims that these were the ancestors of the present inhabitants of modern Mongolia.
As for the mixing of peoples, an example is the modern Caucasus.
Somehow they are not very mixed there. Although they live nearby for thousands of years.
Therefore, now on our land there should be a clearly expressed Mongolian ethnic group as an indigenous people. But just this we do not observe.

[What a]

An example of A. Makedonsky, he also had peoples in the army that he conquered.

[Seal]

What, the combat schedule of the army of A. the Great was discovered? Show the find?

[Pvi1206]

10 facts about the Vatican. http://fkt.moost.ru/vatikan.php

[Aleksander]

the words "Horde" is the Russian word Rod, Rada (Golden Horde - Golden Rod, that is, royal, of divine origin); “Tumen” - the Russian word “darkness” (10000); “Khan-kagan”, the Russian word “kohan, kohan” - beloved, respected,. Word "Existing" - "Old Man»

Surprisingly familiar "proofs" a la:

-since in medieval Europe surnames were given, as a rule, at the place of origin of a person, it is easy to guess that Christopher Columbusreferred to in Portugal Colomwas originally from Kolomyia, known, by the way, from the XIII century and is now the district center of Ivano-Frankivsk region.
the skipper on the ship "Santa Maria" was Juan de Coswhose name is supposedly easily deciphered as Ivan Kozak. etc.

[V.ic]

Quote: Aleksander

Surprisingly familiar "proofs" a la:

Would you be so kind as to compare the mentioned term "Orda "and the German term"Ordnung ". In both cases, we are talking about ordering. In the Russian term, we mean the organization of society. In the German term, the main meaning is precisely the establishment, ordering in a particular case. This similarity cannot be explained by chance. The relationship of these concepts is obvious. / The comparison I took from L. . N. Gumilyov. /

[Sweles]

if you want to know about the Horde then please

-ORDA - in Russian, the medieval Mongolian army, a synonym for disorder (went on the offensive horde, damned horde, etc.)
-ORDUNUNG- order (it)
-ORDER-order in business
-ORDER- ship formation
-ORDEN-reward for valor
-L-ORD- LORD
-n_a (O) P_ (o) _D- people-clan-horde-
-p_OR_ya_D_ok- order
-sub_ ORD_information-submission, power

Let's continue there are more new words (not my observation)
-Proud, Simeon the Proud is Simeon the Horde
-solid
-wORD-word
-wOR_l_D-world
-swORD-sword, saber, rapier
-BARDAC- mess
chords and flanges are borders, these concepts go from the borders of states
-MORDOVIA- region, country
-Morda is the obvious antonym in meaning, a vulgarization of the meaning of the word
-CABARDU- obviously from the Horde
here you can also include the toponyms ORD_es-i-Monte Perdida - national park in Spain
somewhere I saw ODESSA-ORDESSA on old maps, you need to search
-d_a (O) RDA_nely- quite a definite toponym -binding to a place, and therefore to the state, and therefore again to the ORDER-ORDER
-kav_ARDA_k-distorted to DEFECT, or rather the beginning of the word from DAMAGE, and the rest of the Horde is done on the same principle as the BARDAC, i.e. worsen and vulgarize the meaning of the ORD-ORDER
-CAVALERGUARDS, GUARDEMARINS- Horde seems to be read in the root, but here probably in a different way, comes from the French. GUARD, and fr. GUARD -Garage is a Russian garden-fence-enclose -city, however, it may also have gone from the Horde
-PORTS - in the sense of pants, well, the same thing to vulgarize the meaning of the ORDER -ORDS
-PORT-PORT -ORDA here definitely
-D_ORT_MUND- at the root of the Horde
-Ko_ORD_INATY- this is what I like unambiguously showing the direction to the HORDE AND THE SELF-WORD is Russian, the Russian prefix is ​​K
-Ort - (from Greek orthos - direct) - the same as a unit vector.
-Portugal
-FORT- to the Horde- to the Horde
those. forts are the Horde outposts
-NORD -On the Horde

so what do we see? this is the very medieval Great Horde - AUTHORITY, in all languages, ORDER, and only in the most distorted- Russian mess, how does it happen that the languages ​​of the world have preserved the memory of the previous great order of things, and we are told that it was a great mess?

those. as we see, the Horde was the basis of modern civilization ...

[guzik007]

those. as we see, the Horde was the basis of modern civilization ...
-------------------------------------------------- -----------------
Join us!
And I’ll add my own thoughts
TATAR-tat-ar.
1.tat (slim-beautiful in Tatar) -Russian: become, STAT
2. ar, well, here it’s clear, ar, arias (husband, man)

Well, what happened, and what language does it belong to? : =)

[Sweles]

Quote: guzik007

Join us!
And I’ll add my own thoughts
TATAR-tat-ar.
1.tat (slim-beautiful in Tatar) -Russian: become, STAT
2. ar, well, here it’s clear, ar, arias (husband, man)

Well, what happened, and what language does it belong to? : =)

Well, why are you bringing your nonsense here?

[guzik007]

Well, why are you bringing your nonsense here?
--------------------------------------
Oh yeah ... Well, we have Veles. Well, I'm sorry for the nonsense. I'll go and repent: =) for it is a sin: shaggy, shaggy and raw horse meat from under the saddle the last finished yesterday: =))

[Rivares]

Quote: Sveles

Well, why are you bringing your nonsense here?

And how is this combination
Tara is an ancient Slavic goddess.
Tarkh is an ancient Slavic god.
TARKHTAR (on the maps of TARTARIA)

[V.ic]

Quote: guzik007

tat (slender-beautiful in Tatar)

... something inspired: "thief" / robber /.

[starshina wmf]

Tat earlier in Russian is a killer.

[Seal]

Mordechai forgot .

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Seal

Mordechai forgot .

SchA Chisyna will come with her SCS-catfish and slap you.

[Aleksander]

Quote: V.ic

Would you be so kind as to compare the mentioned term "Horde" and the German term "Ordnung".

Excuse me:

Christopher Columbus (Spanish: Cristóbal Colom) is the discoverer of America.
Ukrainian city Colomia.

Quote: V.ic

You cannot explain this similarity by accident. Obviously the relatedness of these concepts

-

[V.ic]

Quote: Aleksander

Christopher Columbus (Spanish: Cristóbal COLOM)

The answer is: Yandex-Translator (Spanish): "Christopher Columbus" = "Cristóbal Colón". Colom is Italian and French. The "Yuzan" version of your browser "does not dance".

Quote: Aleksander

Ukrainian city of COLOMia.

"Kolomyia" / Ukrainian /,"Kolomyya "/lat./, Kołomyja (Polish); You, dear, do not fit your words with facts.

[Oldwiser]

If you don’t like the German Ordnung, let there be an English Order - the meaning is the same (only in merchant English also appears the meaning of the order)

[Oldwiser]

If you don’t like the German Ordnung, let there be an English Order - the meaning is the same (only in merchant English also appears the meaning of the order)

[gozmosZh]

zaminusili!)) Well it was sarcasm. Yes?

like the famous decryptor Zadornov. ))) police - pretty faces, police - filthy faces.

[Darkness]

Doctors, doctors in the comments?
Your help is urgently needed !!!

[guzik007]

Doctors, doctors in the comments?
Your help is urgently needed !!!
---------------------------------------
Yes, here I am, what’s wrong with you, patient? : =))

[Mr. Pipper]

Quote: Darkness

Doctors, doctors in the comments?
Your help is urgently needed !!!

Vodka! Urgently need vodka!

[Cartalon]

Brad is not worth discussing, as I read a wonderful parody back in the 19th century to writing, they very well proved that Napoleon was not there, and his whole story is a solar myth.

[surrozh]

There are really many historical inconsistencies, but then whoever conquered China, there, according to written sources, the Mongols are easily traced. But this is probably the topic of a future article.

[Glot]

What a nightmare, the dusk of consciousness.
Author, stop making people laugh. Do not write anything, not yours.
Well it is necessary to manage, think, and even more so write such nonsense ...

[Mr. Pipper]

Quote: Glot

What a nightmare, the dusk of consciousness.

Greetings!
I went to "paugarat" a little, but I feel my brain and psyche are starting to pass slowly

[Glot]

Greetings!
I went to "paugarat" a little, but I feel my brain and psyche are starting to pass slowly

Good day. )))
Oh, yes, I am already watching "Black General". ))))
I don’t even want to comment on THIS, much less argue with the followers of such nonsense.
It is enough to read and laugh from the heart, as well as from the material itself, and from some empty-headed commentators. )))
What kind of vacuum should you have in your head, talking about "Baty - Baty", "Hordes - Coordinates" and so on? There isn't even a vacuum, just one solid bone, like billiard balls. )))
Tin in general, just tin ...

[Mr. Pippers]

Quote: Glot

Oh, yes, I am already watching "Black General".

You offend me, my friend, I'm already at least four times "dead marshal"

Quote: Glot

It is enough to read and laugh from the heart, as well as from the material itself, and from some empty-headed commentators.

That's for sure, although some comments and articles are hard to leave unanswered.
PS About "Bath" I also got through, almost to tears

[Glot]

PS About "Bath" I also got through, almost to tears

Yes, there is not only about "Bath", there, whatever you take, all the tears cause. Tears from how many d.i.i.l.o. have spawned God ... horror ... It's not even funny.
It makes no sense to answer them in principle. Downs will not hear ... They will only repeat with slobbering mouths "HORDS-PORTS-BOARDS ... ABORTIONS"
By the way, for dauno-horD:
MOUTH-OT-ORD-ORDA. And what, also from the Horde.
That's just, it is better for them to keep their hordes-mouths-mouths closed.

[Spnsr]

Quote: Glot

Yes, there is not only about "Bath", there, whatever you take, all the tears cause. Tears from how much. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... then they were fruitful, God ... horror ... It's not even funny.

old man, yes I’ve looked at you in general, don’t you see the edges? if you don’t share the point of view of someone, this should not give you the right to speak like that about others ...
you’re simpler somehow, otherwise I’m watching you are a real ossified hystorik who has no reciprocal arguments except insults ...

[Glot]

old man, yes I’ve looked at you in general, don’t you see the edges? if you don’t share the point of view of someone, this should not give you the right to speak like that about others ...
you’re simpler somehow, otherwise I’m watching you are a real ossified hystorik who has no reciprocal arguments except insults ...

And I'm used to calling things by their proper names, and d.u.r.a.c.u. everyone is used to saying who he is. Excuse me, such a character. )))
Something you do not like? Your right, it’s not yours to me, the area with the device. )))
Still have questions? No ? Bye !!! )))

[Spnsr]

Quote: Glot

old man, yes I’ve looked at you in general, don’t you see the edges? if you don’t share the point of view of someone, this should not give you the right to speak like that about others ...
you’re simpler somehow, otherwise I’m watching you are a real ossified hystorik who has no reciprocal arguments except insults ...

And I'm used to calling things by their proper names, and d.u.r.a.c.u. everyone is used to saying who he is. Excuse me, such a character. )))
Something you do not like? Your right, it’s not yours to me, the area with the device. )))
Still have questions? No ? Went to *** !!! )))

Yes, you are also a wobogi!
sorry, client psychiatric hospital!

[Glot]

Yes, you are also a wobogi!
sorry, client psychiatric hospital!

No, it’s plunging into this topic that you feel like you have visited a psychiatrist. )))
I see you, too, from the "Tartarians". Rest defective. )))

[Spnsr]

Quote: Glot

No, it’s plunging into this topic that you feel like you have visited a psychiatrist. )))
I see you, too, from the "Tartarians"

mallet!

[Glot]

mallet!

Small or small?
Or is it written in Tartarian MALA?
So I’m leading to that, with our education being tight, that’s why this is all a problem.
And education is not necessary for those who sit high, because the dumber the herd, the easier it is to manage.

In general, okay man, I’m not going to argue here and argue. This is all empty.
If I hooked you - sorry, not from evil, but just all this dullness already got silly, that's all. Nothing personal as they say and do not keep a stone in your bosom. )))
Understand that all these games are verbal - silly things, to say the least.
In general, okay, well, its these discussions. They are not worth swearing about them.

[Spnsr]

Quote: Glot

If I hooked you - sorry, not from evil, but just all this dullness already got silly, that's all. Nothing personal as they say and do not keep a stone in your bosom. )))
Understand that all these games are verbal - silly things, to say the least.
In general, okay, well, its these discussions. They are not worth swearing about them.

I wrote what I wanted to write, but since

Quote: Glot

Small or small?

I think it’s clear what was said there!
yes, the horde is jumping

[Spnsr]

and again, to consolidate the material, maybe another bone will pierce your consciousness and create a different stereotype

the description of nationalities in Russia began at the end of the 18th century, literally like the nationalities of the population of the entire planet, especially its Asian part and part of Europe, with the exception of the minority, which formed earlier and was most likely the cause of the collapse of large empires, for fear of being absorbed by these empires.
I will not say that those nationalities that lived on the territory of present-day Russia did not have names, but these names were more often tied to the locality, or to the city, like the Kazan Tatarav, Astrakhan Tatarav, and in general they were all just Tatara, because they lived in Tataria. .., as it can be said now, Moscow Russians, Crimean, etc.
as a justification I can give an example of modernity, this is Ukraine, a little earlier, Turkey, when there were both Yugoslavs and Czechoslovakians, who now, for whatever reason, have become those nationalities that are now present in those territories, including new ones ... because large united people are not needed ...
the separation of Pakistan from India in the last century led to the emergence of Pakistanis, and as in India and Pakistan, in Iraq and Iran there are still prerequisites for crushing, and in every state formation, there are these prerequisites ...
somewhere these prerequisites are indicated by religious views, somewhere inherent in the names of nationalities, nationalities of states in the neighborhood!
but the most important thing is that these prerequisites were laid in the middle of the late 17th-19th centuries, but rather as far back as the 20th century !, and not earlier, as everyone here is trying to assert ...
The prerequisites for such a statement lie in the emergence of Turkey and Ukraine in the 20th century, despite the fact that Ukraine as a subject of relations is being formed only now ....

[bya965]

I will write simply. Kalmyks and Mongols are one nation. They all have the same language, culture, etc. Only some say I'm a Mongol with a brush, while others I am a Mongol without a brush. In the middle of the 18th century (I can lie, I write from memory, too lazy to answer delirium) a part of the Kalmyks went to Mongolia and still lives there.
1. Kalmyks are Don Cossacks (in any case, according to the latest census, in the OFFICIAL documents if the Kalmyk speaks a Cossack, write Kalmyk, or, for example, a Chinese says ethnicity x y or x y x y y (in any case, the Chinese are official) the site is blocking, I'm outraged), write Chinese)
2. I drank with them many times (real Mongols, by the way doctors of sciences in physics), you feel comfortable drinking with them, like with Russians. You can argue, quarrel, hangover in the morning, but they will never quit, they will not set you up, they will not betray you. Maybe we have these qualities from them, they have not been noticed by other Slavs.

[Humpty]

Quote: bya965

In the middle of the 18th century (I can lie, I write from memory, too lazy to answer delirium) part of the Kalmyks went to Mongolia and still lives there.

Memory fails you. Comrades Kazakhs from the forum can, if they wish, make amendments, if they are not too lazy. I'm lazy . And you are not accurate with the name of the unprintable nationality. The last letter in the name is not "y", but "and". We know them as Dungans. More precisely, they are not Chinese, but a rare variety of Chinese.

[bya965]

Quote: Humpty

Quote: bya965

In the middle of the 18th century (I can lie, I write from memory, too lazy to answer delirium) part of the Kalmyks went to Mongolia and still lives there.

Memory fails you. Comrades Kazakhs from the forum can, if they wish, make amendments, if they are not too lazy. I'm lazy . And you are not accurate with the name of the unprintable nationality. The last letter in the name is not "y", but "and". We know them as Dungans. More precisely, they are not Chinese, but a rare variety of Chinese.

Since the 1771th century, with the assimilation of the Gregorian calendar, Tsagan Sar in Kalmykia was not celebrated precisely as the beginning of the calendar year, but the Volga Kalmyks, who migrated from the Russian Empire in XNUMX, retained the traditional ritual: their descendants living in Xinjiang (PRC) note Tsagan Sar is like New Year.

In 1771, the outcome of a large part of the Kalmyks from the banks of the Volga to Dzungaria occurred. There are two main reasons for this event: 1) the influence of the Manchu-Chinese diplomacy of Qing Beijing, which wanted to attract the Volga Kalmyks to assist in the success of the resolution of the Dzungarian issue; 2) the oppression of Kalmyks by the Russian government.

This is from different wiki articles. And where does the Kazakhs.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Монгольские_народы
read
The Mongolian peoples are a group of related peoples who speak Mongolian languages ​​and are closely connected by a common centuries-old history, culture and traditions.

They inhabit the north of China, Mongolia and the regions of the Russian Federation - the Republic of Buryatia and Kalmykia, the Irkutsk region and the Trans-Baikal Territory [6].

More than 10 million people belong to the Mongols. Of these, 3 million are in Mongolia, 4 million are in the Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region, and up to 3 million are in Liaoning, Gansu, Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region and other regions of China.

[Chisayna]

They forgot Yakutia. The Yakut language is similar to the Buryat language.

[bya965]

Quote: Humpty

And you are not accurate with the name of the unprintable nationality. The last letter in the name is not "y", but "and". We know them as Dungans. More precisely, they are not Chinese, but a rare variety of Chinese.

Not too lazy, I did not find the basic document for listing nationalities. In the search, the census results are crushed.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Национальный_состав_населения_России_в_2010_году#.
D0.94
read
Dungane (Lao x y y x y y, x y y, huizu) - 1651

[Humpty]

Quote: bya965

Dungane (

So the base document is inaccurate.

[bya965]

Humpty You can find something yourself, like a child, by golly.

I repeat during the census, a document was formed (twenty pages long) for entering nationalities, such a table of correspondence. In it, the word Chinese is mentioned about twenty times. She looked like that
.....
x y y | Chinese
x u x x y | Chinese
...
Huizu | Chinese
...

The word xy th was mentioned three times. I won a couple of disputes. For the inhabitants of Russia, most Chinese are just Chinese. And in general, there is no such nationality. There are Chinese people. consisting of many nationalities. For example han

I searched there for the word Cossack.

[Mr. Pippers]

Quote: bya965

And in general, there is no such nationality.

Absolutely right - the Chinese is like an American, but the Americans are even more united than the Chinese

[kumaxa]

so began for health ended as usual.

[Ogogoshka]

The article smacks of frank Fomenkovism. A lot has been put together in a heap, but there are no facts, only roundabout assumptions.

[gozmosZh]

Fomenko and Nosovsky are not historians, but mathematicians. and they explain everything with mathematical precision.
http://my.mail.ru/mail/5kov-57/video/19

although the devil knows what was there before. until we invent the time machine, we will live by guesses.

[alex-cn]

"After all, it is known from history that any conqueror relies on a developed economy. Rome was the advanced power of Europe."
But then finished off his German tribes and tribal associations! Not so simple...

[97110]

Quote: alex-cn

But then finished off his German tribes and tribal associations! Not so simple...

The work of the local elite. The same Khrushchev, MM and EBN. Only there was no tyrnet - more time was gone. They blamed everything on the poor Germans as they had stolen. The Germans were supposedly wild, they put up tents in houses and burned bonfires. Painting Maidan - do not find?

[igordok]

Quote: alex-cn

"After all, it is known from history that any conqueror relies on a developed economy. Rome was the advanced power of Europe."
But then finished off his German tribes and tribal associations! Not so simple...

Why go so far? Remember WWII. Super economy of Germany, and perhaps the whole of Europe against the newly created, not fledgling economy of the USSR. The numbers do not always win.

[gnv731]

In vain you downplay the economy of the pre-war USSR, its economy was not much inferior to the German one, plus its resources.

[igordok]

The pace of development was high, but did not manage to reach the level of Germany. The defense industry is almost equal.

[Oldwiser]

Quote: igordok

The numbers do not always win

The triumph of spirit over matter? Oh well

What is the strength, American? Strength - it is in the TRUTH

c / f "Brother-2"

[Oldwiser]

Quote: igordok

The numbers do not always win

The triumph of spirit over matter? Oh well

What is the strength, American? Strength - it is in the TRUTH

c / f "Brother-2"

[Seal]

But then finished off his German tribes and tribal associations!

Is this also known from history? Or all the same from history books?

[digo]

God knows how it really was. But questions are raised in the article, partly interesting ...
The fact that history is rewritten to order is a fact. Take, for example (where the participants are still alive), the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945 (such as Bandera, the hero-liberator, defender of women and children !!! and so on), Georgia in 2008 (the West claims that Russia attacked !! !) Ukraine (Russia sent troops !!!), Minsk agreements (Russia does not comply with them, and Savchenko must release !!!), migration to Europe (migration began only after the Russian air forces supported Assad !!!), Syria ( Russian VKS bomb only civilians !!!) ... You’ll get tired of listing everything ... Statements of the modern West that only Russia is to blame for everything ... And this is in this age of information technology! What happened then? In the absence of television and radio? Carry any nonsense - for the truth will pass ...
The only similarity is Russia, which is always presented with barbaric, weak-willed, weak, stupid slave-cattle people ... I don’t know how it was in Russia when I wasn’t ... But today I’ll say - Western "experts in Russia" are lying, and many people know this better than me ...
Hence the conclusion: given that the West has hatred of Russia in blood, then it is believed neither today nor yesterday ... And therefore, the history of Russia, written by Western scholars, causes great doubts ...
Sorry if that ...

[Cap.Morgan]

This is so.
But the written sources are mainly Greek and Roman, then Polish, Venetian ...
Our sources are almost not preserved.

[Seal]

Only Czech sources speak about the famous battle with the "Mongol-Tatars" at Legnica, where the "Mongol-Tatars" were letting terrible smoke on the Czech and other troops. Moreover, all these sources in the same 19th century were exposed as a fake. The author of the fake Czech manuscripts is Dr. Vaclav Hanka.
http://chrdk.ru/sci/2015/8/13/kak_falshivki_pomogli_sozdat_cheshskuju_identichno

st /

Everything seemed to be exposed, everyone recognized, but the "details" of this "famous battle of Legnica" are still wandering from one historical thesis to another.

You see, in fact, you have to be extremely careful about all sources. Greek, Roman, Polish, Venetian including. Those who made often made their "historical sources" not for profit, but for the love of art or for a good purpose - to improve the historical image of their country.
But nevertheless, they had pride. And many have always wanted to have the opportunity in the aftermath, when their "sources" will occupy a position befitting their greatness in the list of the most authentic historical documents, still have the opportunity to prove their authorship. Therefore, they often left marks invisible to the prying eye. Well, for example, such that when reading the first letters of the lines in a certain order - well, there after one line or through a more complex algorithm, or this label was hidden in the text itself - you could read something like, well, if according to the modern, then for example : "Shitt + Alt + Del = reboot".

[kalibr]

Quote: DIGO

History of Russia, written by Western scholars-historians

Have you read it? At least something, at least some book by some author. I don’t presume to speak for the Germans, I don’t know, for the French — I don’t know either. But for the British ... at least one "bad book" of the famous English historian, where he describes our history.

[skrabplus.ru]

There are, like mathematics, Nosovsky and Fomenko. I read them 3 books New Chronology of Russia, Moscow and something else. In general, mathematics are right. They prove by historical inconsistencies and historical documents, frescoes that history is distorted to the impossibility, that the story of temporary years is shifted by 1000 years. A lot of interesting things. Rho America including. I recommend reading!

[kalibr]

Alexey, do you know the history so well that you are able to appreciate it, to separate flies from cutlets, so to speak? You have a history education, there are publications on historical topics, right? Or did you have one semester of history at your university and you passed that one?

Clear! If it’s minus, and the comment has been deleted by the moderator, then I guessed it: the youngest scoop of the dump truck convoy decided to make the scientific world happy with its competent opinion!

[parusnik]

Woland, nervously on the sidelines, smokes "Our Brand" .. they will finish off the poor with exposing "black magic", and even with a sequel ...

[Humpty]

Dear Alexander . Where have gone and who those "Mongols" were is not clear. And traces of the Mongoloid presence from the invasions might not remain. Whether anyone likes it or not, Russian women who were raped by the Mongoloids, if they could not get rid of them, then at birth they themselves eliminated the consequences of the rape.
It was very close even in the 20th century. In particular, 100 years ago in Wed. In Asia, thousands of Russian women, old women and tiny girls were raped by the brutal and lost their human appearance, typical Mongoloid. The consequences are eliminated by the affected women.

[Cap.Morgan]

Quote: Humpty

Dear Alexander . Where have gone and who those "Mongols" were is not clear. And traces of the Mongoloid presence from the invasions might not remain. Whether anyone likes it or not, Russian women who were raped by the Mongoloids, if they could not get rid of them, then at birth they themselves eliminated the consequences of the rape.
It was very close even in the 20th century. In particular, 100 years ago in Wed. In Asia, thousands of Russian women, old women and tiny girls were raped by the brutal and lost their human appearance, typical Mongoloid. The consequences are eliminated by the affected women.

Is it right that all the old women and little girls have been killing their children for at least decades?
And is this in a Christian believing country? Oh ...

[Humpty]

Quote: Cap.Morgan

Is it right that all the old women and little girls have been killing their children for at least decades?
And is this in a Christian believing country? Oh ...

They were sometimes killed under the threat of capture in slavery. And children from strangers ..., yes, yes, in a Christian country.
During the events of 100 years ago, about which he hinted, one case was recorded (by the way, by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs) - an exception. Exceptions were rare.

[Uncle VasyaSayapin]

The Mongols captured Russia, found support from the Russian Orthodox Church, subjugated the princes, imposed tribute and went into the steppe. Someone even wrote about the fact that in Russia there were Mongol garrisons, at least as GSVG.

[Oldwiser]

Quote: Uncle VasyaSayapin

in Russia there were Mongol garrisons, at least as GSVG

But why go far? We take a list of Cossack troops (Donskoy, Zaporizhzhya, Yaitskoye, ...) and the army (Cossack) - it is the analogue of our military district.
In central Russia - no, because it was the metropolis of the empire.

[Oldwiser]

Quote: Uncle VasyaSayapin

in Russia there were Mongol garrisons, at least as GSVG

But why go far? We take a list of Cossack troops (Donskoy, Zaporizhzhya, Yaitskoye, ...) and the army (Cossack) - it is the analogue of our military district.
In central Russia - no, because it was the metropolis of the empire.

[Forget]

The word Horde, this is not a Russian word, this Turkic word is translated as a center.

[ver_]

..Orda - military order or army ...

[egor73]

[quote = venaya] [quote] "The myth of the" Mongols from Mongolia in Russia "is the most grandiose and monstrous provocation of the Vatican and the West as a whole against Russia" [/ quote]
I fully support the article itself and the position of the author! The article is a definite plus (+).

Yes, there are only enemies around! The Pope did not sleep at night, he was thinking about Russia: how could she replace history. What's the point? Show that we fought with ourselves, and not with the Mongol conquerors?

[venaya]

Indeed, there are only enemies around! How did you notice this so quickly?
Let us recall only the last two World Wars, when we were pitched against our blood brothers of the R1a1 haplogroup by the "Germans" (nimEchina) who were forbidden to write and speak in the autohonous (that is, native) Western Russian dialect of the Russian language no more than 500 years ago (officially in 1914 th year). And the wars with the Swedes (s-ven-s - Scandinavian Venets), whom the Finns call "rosolaenen", and by the way the Finns call us the same ven-ets. Does this still surprise you? We are constantly being pitted against our direct relatives, the events on the outskirts of Russia, now in Ukraine, are you still not convinced of this? Yes, and the Napoleonic Wars - of the million who crossed the Niemen, most were also slavs. Think about it at your leisure.

[egor73]

Yes, in general, all people are brothers. All descended from Adam and Eve. And any war is fratricidal.

[starshina wmf]

But Eve went twice left along the course.

[Amurets]

Quote: egor73

Yes, there are only enemies around! The Pope did not sleep at night, he was thinking about Russia: how could she replace history. What's the point? Show that we fought with ourselves, and not with the Mongol conquerors?

I don’t know what, but if you look at the history of Europe, Pope Gregory fought Emperor Frederick. He was not up to Russia. See the 6th Crusade.
http://fb.ru/article/176038/krestovyie-pohodyi-tablitsa-i-datyi и император Римской империи Фридрих II.А особенно кто участвовал в этой сваре.
http://historic.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000032/st051.shtml А по этой ссылке можно посмотреть что происходило в Евразии в эти годы.Это просто хронологическая таблица.

[digo]

Quote: egor73

Yes, there are only enemies around! The Pope did not sleep at night, he was thinking about Russia: how could she replace history. What's the point? Show that we fought with ourselves, and not with the Mongol conquerors?

The tasks of the Roman Church are to rule the world. At least it used to be. Yes, no one is hiding it. Most of the conquest wars under the auspices of the Catholics began (all kinds of crusades), as well as the persecution of other religions and paganism (complete rejection of the religions of the Indians in America). And here in Russia Orthodoxy got out of control ... You see, Christianity is saturated with the Russian spirit ...
Well, the popes are not fools of tea, so they decided to cut off the roots of the Russian peoples, such as we are civilization and culture, and you are so lapadniki, idiots, are incapable of anything, you can only obey the newly arrived kings and any invaders ... And then your faith is false ...
... i.e. while rewriting history, they strove to dust their brains in such a way (as in Ukraine today) that the Russian people will decide that they really have a sheep’s heart and will run into a common flock under the power of a shepherd (pope) in the Vatican ...
Like something, although who knows?

[Oldwiser]

Well, in the official history of the Christian Church, everything is described a little differently - at first they were divided into the Western (Latin Catholic) and Eastern (Greek Orthodox) churches (and, interestingly, this happens at about the same time as the appearance Islam and Judaism), and only then the ROC separated from the Patriarch of Constantinople (ecumenical) and in fact became the "Russian Catholic Orthodox Church."
And in the era of the Reformation, numerous heresies - Protestants (Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans, etc.) separated from the Latin Catholic (papal) church

[Oldwiser]

Well, in the official history of the Christian Church, everything is described a little differently - at first they were divided into the Western (Latin Catholic) and Eastern (Greek Orthodox) churches (and, interestingly, this happens at about the same time as the appearance Islam and Judaism), and only then the ROC separated from the Patriarch of Constantinople (ecumenical) and in fact became the "Russian Catholic Orthodox Church."
And in the era of the Reformation, numerous heresies - Protestants (Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans, etc.) separated from the Latin Catholic (papal) church

[Seal]

Yes, there are not so much dad as Poles tried to present themselves as the last outpost of European civilization. Further east of Poland they say only the yoke and the Tatars. Well, dad and all his services, well, just agreed with the version of the Poles. And they began to officially support her.

[Seal]

Quote: egor73

Yes, there are only enemies around! The Pope did not sleep at night, he was thinking about Russia: how could she replace history. What's the point? Show that we fought with ourselves, and not with the Mongol conquerors?

Why don’t you want to understand one very elementary simple thing - every sovereign, every state, every people WANTS TO HAVE A BEAUTIFUL HISTORY. And I always wanted to. But a beautiful story can only happen in comparison with something ugly. The story of one courtyard or one village can turn out beautiful if there is a yard (village) with an ugly history nearby for comparison. The history of one country (people) can turn out to be beautiful if a country (people) with an ugly history is nearby for comparison. And if there are no such candidates for ugliness, then they just need to be invented.
Why Europe and why the Pope. Yes, everything is simple. All the Catholic countries of Europe, as they were before the Reformation, were equally close to the Pope. And he could not allow one Catholic country, no matter how large or small, to create a beautiful story for itself by smearing the history of a neighboring Catholic country with black paint. What does it mean ? And this means that before European writers who create beautiful stories of their countries, the following paths were opened:
- to smear with black paint "szykhmatics-Muscovites", in which the Poles were especially zealous. And the Swedes.
- smear with black paint all Muslims (well, this is the holy duty of every Catholic writer of those times)
- smear with black paint all the pagans (well, in this matter, ours tried)
- to invent “ancient peoples” that did not exist in reality and courageously beat them in “ancient battles” that did not exist in the same way.

But after the Reformation, when Germany, Denmark (and Norway and Sweden) became Protestant from Catholic countries, that is, enemies of Rome, the History of Rome began to be written, including sections on the "destruction of the Great Roman Empire" by barbarians Germans and barbarians-Goths , immigrants from Sweden. And also create cycles of stories about the brutal raids on the peaceful European countries of the "Normans".

[starshina wmf]

And the history of China, India, etc. Westerners and Vaticans also wrote? I haven’t read such nonsense for a long time. You write everything about dill, but you yourself haven’t gone far. Maybe you dug up the White Sea too? Yes, the Russian language is full of words somehow related to Mongolian and Turkic. The Mongols had the most advanced training at that time. Espionage, ambushes, feigned retreat. And there are many other methods. The Mongolian troops will have more strength and strength. The princes made up about 500 people, maybe more or less. militia of peasants and subjects. in the Mongolian army every soldier .With childhood on a horse, creeping from the bow, rubit.Do still Tuvinians, Kalmyks knife in karmane.A Khalkha Mongols is the name of the western Mongols, Kalmyks Oirats our ancestors and Jungars.

[gnv731]

Of course, from childhood shoots and cuts. Where is the saber? Where did the amount of iron come from in the steppes of Mongolia? And who processed it? And who made the arrowheads?
Hunting and military affairs are actually different things. And the "wild shepherds" took it and learned. At the same time, somehow they learned how to destroy the walls of cities that were not in Mongolia. To make battering tools, the creation of which requires knowledge of mathematics and engineering fundamentals, and even the forest requires stones for throwing. Probably in Mongolia there is a lot of forest and everywhere there are pebbles of the right size. And while they were studying, they probably ate heavenly manna, because they did not have enough time for cattle breeding. Yes, and who instilled in the Mongols "advanced combat training"? Who in the steppe, where is the nearest camp a hundred kilometers away, to ambush? Wolves and jackals? Where do these skills come from?
Have you ever wondered why nomadic tribes live in a distance from each other? Perhaps because cattle grazing is needed for food. To collect such tribes into a large horde, instill military discipline in them and teach them how to take protected cities is somehow problematic, who do you think will feed and dress them, women and old people?
By the way, there were also articles about the history of China in which it was argued that the Jesuits, that is, the Vatican, were involved in the creation of this story. There are also many inconsistencies in their history.

[Chisayna]

Hehe, how many tips were taken from the mounds of Siberia. There were not only tips, but also swords and so on. You are like a Ukrainian. They write: what a huge state the Scythians had. And the descendants of the Scythians are Ukrainians naturally. Further, they The Scythian possessions extended to Altai-Sayan. The Scythian gold from Arzhaan-2 belongs to Ukraine, since it is the outskirts of the Scythian empire. And the center of the empire was on the Dnieper.

[Pomeranian]

Quote: gnv731

Where did the amount of iron come from in the steppes of Mongolia? And who processed it? And who made the arrowheads?

Theoretically, getting iron (if you know how) is not a big problem. For example, to extract from the swamp ore or barter from the Chinese for fur iron kritz. And To make in a primitive forge is also not a problem. Do you think the nomads did not have blacksmiths and other artisans?

Quote: gnv731

Probably in Mongolia there is a lot of forest and everywhere the pebbles of the right size lie.

Smiled. Well here is http://www.legendtour.ru/rus/mongolia/informations/flora.shtml
read it. About the pebbles.

[starshina wmf]

Your Americans are to blame now, and earlier the Vatican. Like dill, Russia is to blame everywhere.

[Seal]

Why don’t you want to understand one very elementary simple thing - every sovereign, every state, every people WANTS TO HAVE A BEAUTIFUL HISTORY. And I always wanted to. But a beautiful story can only happen in comparison with something ugly. The story of one courtyard or one village can turn out beautiful if there is a yard (village) with an ugly history nearby for comparison. The history of one country (people) can turn out to be beautiful if a country (people) with an ugly history is nearby for comparison. And if there are no such candidates for ugliness, then they just need to be invented.
Why Europe and why the Pope. Yes, everything is simple. All the Catholic countries of Europe, as they were before the Reformation, were equally close to the Pope. And he could not allow one Catholic country, no matter how large or small, to create a beautiful story for itself by smearing the history of a neighboring Catholic country with black paint. What does it mean ? And this means that before European writers who create beautiful stories of their countries, the following paths were opened:
- to smear with black paint "szykhmatics-Muscovites", in which the Poles were especially zealous. And the Swedes.
- smear with black paint all Muslims (well, this is the holy duty of every Catholic writer of those times)
- smear with black paint all the pagans (well, in this matter, ours tried)
- to invent “ancient peoples” that did not exist in reality and courageously beat them in “ancient battles” that did not exist in the same way.

But after the Reformation, when Germany, Denmark (and Norway and Sweden) became Protestant from Catholic countries, that is, enemies of Rome, the History of Rome began to be written, including sections on the "destruction of the Great Roman Empire" by barbarians Germans and barbarians-Goths , immigrants from Sweden. And also create cycles of stories about the brutal raids on the peaceful European countries of the "Normans".

[starshina wmf]

The Scythians lived mainly in the southern part of modern Russia. And the Slavs lived in the northern, forest part. So not all Russ are Scythians.

[ver_]

.. yes, how much can you write this whole idiocy about the Mongols .. Mongolia was formed in 1920 - at the time of Baron Ungern and Suchebator ..
Khan Batuy = Yaroslav Vsevolodovich = Yaroslav the Wise = Ivan Kalita - the second son of Vsevolod.
Genghis Khan = Caesar Khan = Gaius Julius Caesar = Yuri George Dolgoruky = St. George = George the Victorious - the first son of Vsevolod, therefore Caesar ..

Alexander Nevsky = Alexander the Great = Khan Berke = Simeon the Proud - beloved son - the right hand of Khan Batu = Yaroslav Vsevolodovich ..

Two invasions of the Huns on Europe - 2 campaigns of Russia, both brothers made a campaign, the second campaign after the death of George made Yaroslav = Khan Batuy and founded the Vatican ..

[V.ic]

Throwing poop at the author is not constructive! The article is interesting. The fact that the Mughals / "Mongols" are related to Mongolia only by name is a no brainer. The author has no indication / yes, and other authors too / where the centers of Tartary / Tataria were located. This is the weakness of his arguments. When the Vtikan archives will be available to Russian historians, then / possibly / the truth will be revealed.

[Oldwiser]

Quote: V.ic

where were the centers of Tartaria / Tataria located

Kazan, Samara, Tsaritsin (now Volgograd) and Astrakhan - why not options?

[KaPToC]

There is an opinion that Tsaritsin (now Volgograd) is the very same Constantinople, on whose gates a shield was nailed.

[Oldwiser]

Quote: V.ic

where were the centers of Tartaria / Tataria located

Kazan, Samara, Tsaritsin (now Volgograd) and Astrakhan - why not options?

[Tired]

Here, and on RenTv, Igor Prokopenko now generally states that the Russians built their civilization 2 million years ago in Siberia and Voronezh. Moreover, it is Russian and civilization. One of the two, or this is mass insanity or is preparing the way for a new ideology (more precisely, the old ideology, but for new suckers who will be seduced by this Aryan slop for another war). I hope that this stupid provocation still fails. It was still not enough that Putin turned out to be the domestic analogue of Hindenburg.

[Adik89]

Actually, the word "Horde" is a Kazakh word of Turkic origin. Means "Center", a synonym for "Capital", consonant with the word "Orta" which is translated as the center.
Kazakh word of Turkic origin "Khan" is the title of ruler. Consonant with the word "Khan" (Khan) - "Blood". For example, the word "Khanate" is translated in Kazakh as "Kandyk" - "Consanguineous, descendants of one kind".
And the word "Kagan" is pronounced in Mongolian "Ha Kan", ancient Turkic "Khaan" - translation of "Great Khan"

I ask you to judge not strictly, but we have these words and they sound, they mean just that. Without any changes. Then draw your own conclusions.

[Gorinich]

The whole question is that the steppe does not have its own written sources. Although from my personal (not scientific) point of view, the steppe was not previously divided into peoples, but only into genera. And to a certain extent it was monolithic in its way of life. Therefore, "Ancient Mongolia" can be placed in the center of the Kazakh steppes ...

[KaPToC]

Playing with words, you suck evidence from the finger, twenty-first. Consonant words can be found even in Africa, this does not prove anything.

[egor73]

Quote: ver_

.. yes, how much can you write this whole idiocy about the Mongols .. Mongolia was formed in 1920 - at the time of Baron Ungern and Suchebator ..
Khan Batuy = Yaroslav Vsevolodovich = Yaroslav the Wise = Ivan Kalita - the second son of Vsevolod.
Genghis Khan = Caesar Khan = Gaius Julius Caesar = Yuri George Dolgoruky = St. George = George the Victorious - the first son of Vsevolod, therefore Caesar ..

Alexander Nevsky = Alexander the Great = Khan Berke = Simeon the Proud - beloved son - the right hand of Khan Batu = Yaroslav Vsevolodovich ..

Two invasions of the Huns on Europe - 2 campaigns of Russia, both brothers made a campaign, the second campaign after the death of George made Yaroslav = Khan Batuy and founded the Vatican ..

Oh, another "historian". Spartacus = Stenka Razin, Caligula = Ivan the Terrible = Joseph Stalin. Spring. Exacerbations.

[Chisayna]

Yes, he, that is, "ver" is not violent, only sometimes he finds it.

[kit_bellew]

I will not argue with foaming at the mouth, but ... There is one "but" that puzzled me somewhere from the 5th grade of secondary school (I studied in the USSR). Where is Mongolia and where is Kievan Rus? I can well admit that the Mongols (in the sense of the ancestors of the modern inhabitants of Mongolia) opened their mouths to neighboring China and did not even choke. But then what? Left in the rear a power that undoubtedly surpasses them in everything (technology, economy, social structure), and flooded to conquer the world? Central Asian states, then India (the history mentions the Mughal Empire, which existed just in India), then the Trans-Volga states, then Russia and further to the west? Why are there so many people in microscopic Mongolia? and only people are few. Each warrior must still be armed, dressed in armor and provided with at least two horses. And is this all Mongolia? Or is it all they borrowed in China, and the Chinese are angel souls! - gave it with pleasure? Come again, don't you feel sorry for anything?
Just the official version looks like complete nonsense. This was obvious even to an 11-year-old kid.
PS: the word "horde" has the same root as "order" and "ordnung". The word is Indo-European, not Turkic.

[novel66]

my friend, straight my words

[novel66]

my friend, straight my words

[Pomeranian]

Quote: kit_bellew

Where did so many people come from in microscopic Mongolia?

From there it came from, and from where in microscopic Macedonia

[Seal]

From there it came from, and from where in microscopic Macedonia

Correctly. Everything is taken from historical jokes.
In the novel “Penguin Island”, Anatole France frankly scoffs at the writers of historical treatises:

“Writing a story is extremely difficult. You probably never know how it all happened, and the more documents, the more difficulties for the historian. When only one single evidence of a fact has been preserved, it is established by us without any hesitation. Indecision arises only in the presence of two or more evidence of an event, since they always contradict one another and cannot be reconciled.
Of course, the preference of one or another historical evidence to everyone else often rests on a solid scientific basis. But it is never so strong as to resist our passions, our prejudices and our interests or to prevent the manifestations of frivolity inherent in all serious people. That's why we constantly portray events either biased or too loose ...
- Your Majesty! I told him. “I ask you to help me with your enlightened advice.” I put all my strength into making a story, but nothing works out for me!
He shrugged his shoulders.
- Why, darling, so trouble yourself with the compilation of historical work, when you can simply write off the most famous of the available, as is customary? After all, if you express a new point of view, some original idea, if you portray people and circumstances in some unexpected light, you will surprise the reader. And the reader does not like to be surprised. In history, he seeks only nonsense, long since known to him. Trying to teach the reader something, you will only offend and make him angry. Do not try to educate him, he will scream that you insult his beliefs.
Historians rewrite each other. In this way, they save themselves from unnecessary labor and from accusations of arrogance. Follow their example, do not be original. An original-minded historian causes widespread distrust, contempt, and disgust.
“Really, sir, do you think,” my interlocutor added, “that I would have achieved such recognition and honor if I had introduced any innovations into my historical books!” Well, what is innovation? Insolence is all! ”

Don't you find that it painfully resembles the working methods of other professional historians? Their critical opuses directed against the authors of alternative versions contain nothing but contempt, disgust, and righteous anger. And in fact: miserable amateurs with a pork snout climb in a Kalash line, impure unclean fingers in an opening wound, ulcerate, giggle and prevent busy people from quietly copying each other.

[Riv]

The article is a rare nonsense. This time I will not comment on the messenger of the madhouse, but for those interested in the question I refer to Bushkov's book "Genghis Khan. Mysterious Asia." It is written simply, accessible, justified and just right for someone who wants to understand the topic without shoveling tons of scientific and pseudo-scientific works. All questions to which the author of the article does not know the answers are covered in it.

Although the little things and in this book there is something to get to the bottom ... Regarding the Turks, as Huber-races, for example.

[Adik89]

Quote: kit_bellew

I will not argue with foaming at the mouth, but ... There is one "but" that puzzled me somewhere from the 5th grade of secondary school (I studied in the USSR). Where is Mongolia and where is Kievan Rus? I can well admit that the Mongols (in the sense of the ancestors of the modern inhabitants of Mongolia) opened their mouths to neighboring China and did not even choke. But then what? Left in the rear a power that undoubtedly surpasses them in everything (technology, economy, social structure), and flooded to conquer the world? Central Asian states, then India (the history mentions the Mughal Empire, which existed just in India), then the Trans-Volga states, then Russia and further to the west? Why are there so many people in microscopic Mongolia? and only people are few. Each warrior must still be armed, dressed in armor and provided with at least two horses. And is this all Mongolia? Or is it all they borrowed in China, and the Chinese are angel souls! - gave it with pleasure? Come again, don't you feel sorry for anything?
Just the official version looks like complete nonsense. This was obvious even to an 11-year-old kid.
PS: the word "horde" has the same root as "order" and "ordnung". The word is Indo-European, not Turkic.

Horde is a Turkic word, although the order is also similar. Probably, if we take even the oldest, then probably at the very beginning in Eurasia there was only one language. Well, except for Chinese :) you’ll understand his fucking, and in addition you’ll break your tongue

[verb]

Summarizing everything written, we can summarize:
1. The development of mankind is inseparable from the development of science
2. History is science
3. If there were no doubts and curiosity, there would be science as such, we would still be sitting on the trees and eating bananas, what kind of wheel is there, and without it it’s nice
4. Tapering in any branch of knowledge slows down, or even completely stops forward movement
5. In dialogues, truth is born. DIALOGUES! But these "nonsense, nonsense, bullshit" are not a dialogue.
6. Doubt, and you will be "happy"

[Amurets]

Quote: verb

Summarizing everything written, we can summarize:

Quote: verb

5. In dialogues, truth is born. DIALOGUES! But these "nonsense, nonsense, bullshit" are not a dialogue.

Quote: novel xnumx

Well, let's forget about the superman Mongols and look for robust versions. well, at least we will discuss them - by golly they are no more crazy than the epic drang tries from the Mongols

I completely agree with this. I agree that the article is polemic and scandalous. And who can argue that going in the direction set by the author, we will not come to the truth. The truth may lie somewhere in the way, there may be a stone at the fork, but many questions the author and forum users put it right, but there are no answers to them. Here somehow you need to look for answers to these questions in the entire history of Eurasia at that time, and not a separate region or event. Over the years, only the appearance of the picture as a whole can be made up, individual strokes can no longer be see. And do not offend anyone there is a minuscule and minus, but we must give our reasons. There is a lot of history in this period in the history of Siberia and the Far East, the Volga region, Southern Russia. There are no studies whatsoever. And where is the Kalka River, no one knows. Here are two links, but the place is conditional, contractual. That's what you need to rely on, look for the place and time when it started and unwind the ball in both directions: before and after this battle
http://masterok.livejournal.com/2209978.html
http://donbass.name/936-gde-zhe-legendarnaja-reka-kalka.html

[Riv]

Truth is not born in a dispute with the insane. Let himself discuss with himself in front of the mirror.

[Amurets]

Quote: Riv

Truth is not born in a dispute with the insane. Let himself discuss with himself in front of the mirror.

Yes, we are not arguing with the author, but by ourselves. The author simply threw in such a topic. The topic is interesting, purely historical. Where did Russia go, what was on the Kalka river and where is this river? The official history cannot answer these questions. But maybe these disputes will help somehow find a way for researchers? Where did the Principality of Tmutaprakan come from? Are there many white spots especially, there are a lot of questions in our region? In fact, Siberia and the Far East were studied after the Cossacks: Ermak, Siberia, Poyarkova, Khabarov went to Cupid: Manchu lived along Amur Daury, Evenki. They did not leave written monuments, the same situation in Eastern Siberia and where the Tatar-Mongols came from is unclear. These are links to the official history of the Amur region. Here and draw conclusions.
http://www.amurobl.ru/wps/wcm/connect/Web+Content/AMUR/Main_site_area/siteArea_a
murObl / istor / hisory1? presentationTemplate = print_staticPage_pt

http://www.amurobl.ru/wps/wcm/connect/Web+Content/AMUR/Main_site_area/siteArea_a
murObl / istor / hisory1? presentationTemplate = print_staticPage_pt

[Forest]

For such articles it’s already necessary to ban, so that the people do not take down the roof. Do not understand anything, make terrible mistakes - and rewrite history.

[Riv]

But the author has a black belt for cooking. Kills one cutlet to death.

[novel66]

History is still driven by economic expediency. Look at the map of the world and think - what the hell is a wild nomad (and there are no others) to scramble for distant lands? Let's say they set out on a campaign, but after the first capture they will settle on what they have conquered, they will chew their lives and beat slaves on the heads with a whip. They will not go further because there is no need - life is good! Hike to the "last sea" ?? What is this? Well, let's forget about the Mongol supermen and look for sound versions. Well, at least let's discuss them - by God they are no more crazy than the epic Drang nah West from the Mongols ..

[kalibr]

Yes, everything is there to discuss something. If you don't know, it doesn't mean that you don't. And there was need and expediency ... Everything was. And the magazines were and are "Questions of history", "History in detail", "Motherland", "History of state and law", "History illustrative" - ​​this is only what is in Russian tongue and not yellow. What of this, Roman, is on your table?

[Gorinich]

The only thing we can agree with is that the Mongols and the Mughals are different concepts. And modern Mongols have nothing to do with the Golden Horde. As for the Mughals, it is necessary to understand here, but there are practically no documentary sources.

[Sweles]

Quote: Gorinich

that the Mongols and the Mughals are different concepts

exactly as a sideboard and sideboard ...

[novel66]

like a canal and sewer ...

[ver_]

..Mogolia, Ruthenia (country of military people), Scythia, the country of the Gaidarics (cities) in ancient times called Tartaria Russia ..

[Rorabek]

The author writes utter nonsense ... on tactics and operational art of using maneuverable troops (cavalry) he has no idea ... Veliky Suvorov won not by number but by skill ... after the defeat of the Russian troops on the Kalka river (superior in human resources, it didn’t really help, complete defeat and feast on the bodies of wounded Suzdal) the Mongols went into Bulgaria and raked to the fullest, because of that they fell for their own main trick:
(tactical technique) an imaginary retreat in order to spread the attacking enemy and then a crushing counterstrike, and here superiority in strength and means does not matter ... it is enough to coordinate the strike group in time and place ... and so 4000 Mongols were captured by the Bulgars and the battle went down in history as a "ram" ... proud and self-confident (as it turned out later) Bulgars exchanged prisoners for the same number of rams, which mortally offended the Mongols ... the Mongols gathered their strength (3 years preparing) and, making maximum efforts, defeated Volga Bulgaria ... here's to you, why not history

[KaPToC]

Behind Suvorov's back was a centralized state, and not rare nomads scattered over a large area. Suvorov led into the battle professional military, not shepherds. An imaginary retreat acts only against irregular troops, a regular army will not pursue anyone without an order, no matter how you pervert.

[Seal]

Suvorov won precisely that with the ability to create numerical superiority. This is the main task of all commanders. So that even having, in principle, a force smaller or equal to the enemy in the direction of the main strike, an advantage is achieved.

[Aposlya]

Quote: Penzuck

4. And repeat the mantra: "There is no Mongoloid in Russians" ...
Was Mongolia formed in the 20th century? The state of the Kazakhs is also in the twentieth.

The state of the Kazakhs was formed in fact in the 15 century ...

[Sweles]

Quote: Aposlya

The state of the Kazakhs was formed in fact in the 15 century ...

Is there any evidence?

[Penzuck]

Quote: Aposlya

The state of the Kazakhs was formed in fact in the 15 century ...

I don’t argue with you. One thing is the Modern State of Greece, the State of Sparta, and the post-Hellenistic state of the Sassanids or Byzantium, the Ptolemaic dynasty in Egypt. Or Trapezud for example? Here the scale is different and the meanings are different and the "Greeks" are different.
The same is with one of the Mongolian tribes of Khala, Kalmyks, Oiratays, etc. In short "Mongols".
You will not argue that the modern state of modern Kazakhs appeared only in the twentieth century? It was in this context that I spoke.

[Adik89]

Being dissatisfied with the harsh policies of Abulkhair, some of the tribes, led by the Sultans Zhanibek and Kerey, were forced to migrate to Mogolstan (Khan Yesen Buga), located in the interfluve of the Shu and Talas rivers, now Almaty, where they created an independent state entity - the Horde, which was assigned the name Kazakh khanate

[Penzuck]

Quote: Adik89

Being dissatisfied with the harsh policies of Abulkhair, some of the tribes, led by the Sultans Zhanibek and Kerey, were forced to migrate to Mogolstan (Khan Yesen Buga), located in the interfluve of the Shu and Talas rivers, now Almaty, where they created an independent state entity - the Horde, which was assigned the name Kazakh khanate

Speak right. However, suppose that a stronger nomadic tribe would have knocked out all the "Kazakhs" from the territory of modern Almaty (as I understood then, they separated themselves from the rest of the Turks). Well, would it have proclaimed its "state", would the state of "Kazakhs" remain then, even if the Kazakhs had not lost their Kazakh self-identity?
And I do not in the least diminish the ability of the Kazakh ethnic group to self-organize. However, the state and public education are two different things.

[Adik89]

Yes, just Kazakh is Kazakh :) We differ from other Turks in language, culture and appearance;) Although it is probably difficult for you to distinguish us from other Asians and Turks. Today's Turkey is not the Turks but the Seljuks, a tribe that came from Azerbaijanis, Uzbeks and Tajiks.
1) Khan Batuy created the Golden Horde, the territory is larger than modern Kazakhstan. The first attempt of self-identity of the Kazakhs.
2) The Golden Horde fell from the onslaught of Tamerlane, a new state of Ak Orda "White Horde" was formed with the territory of present-day Kazakhstan. This is the second attempt at self-identity of Kazakhs.
3) After the fall of the Ak Orda, 2 states were formed, these are the Nogai Horde and the Kazakh Khanate.
4) The Kazakh Khanate, after successful campaigns against the Uzbeks, Mogolstan and the Oirat (Kalmyks) tribes, began the annexation of the Nogai Horde. So the divided people reunited.

[Penzuck]

Quote: Adik89

Although it is probably difficult for you to distinguish us from other Asians and Turks.

It happens.

Quote: Adik89

So the divided people reunited.

This is the key question. For this article. Who is divided?

[starshina wmf]

Well, what about the successful campaigns against the Uzbeks, the Mongols and the Dzungars, and the annexation of the Nogai horde, this is what my grandmother said in two. The Dzungar khanate was defeated by the Manchus and the Halkh Mongols who joined them, and the Nogai horde was destroyed by the Oyrats (Kalmy) who came from Dzhungarai. Where are the Nogai steppes now? Right in Dagestan and in the Stavropol Territory.

[Adik89]

When the accession of the Nogai Horde took place, half of them migrated without recognizing the Chingizids as legal rulers in Russia, the Crimea, the Caucasus and Ukraine. And so the Russian Cossacks appeared! We are still divided into Zhuzes, Tribes and Childbirth.

Here is the story of the Sherkesh clan.

The Sherkesh tribe is one of the main tribal divisions of the Kazakhs of the Younger Zhuz, a member of the Bayula tribal association. Bayuls (literally - “rich in offspring”) - a tribal union that included 12 “ru” (clans): Sherkesh, Adai, Altyn, Alasha, Bersh, Kyzylkurt, Yesentimir, Maskar, Taz, Tana. According to popular genealogical traditions, Sherkeshi are direct descendants of Alshyn, the son of the ancestor of the Younger Zhuz Bekarys, who, in turn, was the youngest son of the legendary Kazakh. According to one version, the Kazakh name Sherkesh in the language of Karachais, Balkars and Kumyks sounds like a Circassian. Circassians / Sherkeshes and Sherkeses are the name of the same medieval Turkic tribe, pronounced differently from different Turks.

According to modern scholars, Sherkeshi come from medieval naimans, as indicated by the traces of their tribal tamgas, which ascend to the all-Taiman tamga. Rod Sherkesh has a long history. Their ancestors migrated from Mongolia to the territory of the North Caucasus and the Don region of the 8th-9th centuries along with the Berish, Issyk, Tana, Tama, Alasha and other genera included in the Bayula alliance. In the 11th century, Sherkesh joined the Polovtsy. In the 13th century, Sherkesh were defeated by the Mongols. Together with the Berish clan, the Sherkesh rebelled several times against the Mongols, but Batu Khan’s troops brutally cracked down on the rebels. But the power of the Mongols did not last long, so, at the end of the 14th century, the Sherkeshes supported the Nogai Khan and freed themselves from the Mongol yoke. At the head of the Sherkesh clan were not Genghisides, but Murza, whom our fellow tribesmen chose from their midst. At the end of the XNUMXth century, after the capture of Kazan and Astrakhan by Ivan the Terrible, Sherkeshi migrated for the most part to the territory of the Volga and became one of the Kazakh clans. At present, Sherkeshs are settled in Atyrau, West Kazakhstan and Mangystau regions of the Republic of Kazakhstan, Astrakhan region of the Russian Federation.

Sherkesh. In historical records of the Sherkesh tribe there is very scarce and, in addition, conflicting information, which does not make it possible to identify its origin. One of the sources indicates that in the X century. Circassians of the Caucasus were called slopes [24]. In another source we read: “During the famous Nogai Khan, Circassians from the Caucasus were called up and they were located near the city of Rylsk, they called themselves Kazakhs” [25]. However, other historical information contradicts the above.

Observing the elements of Turkic languages ​​in the speech of the natives of the western part of the Caucasus (in particular, Kabarda), N. A. Aristov comes to the following assumption: “One can suspect that the very name of the Circassians was brought to the foothills of the Caucasus by unions of Turkic clans of the same name” [26] . Judging by this, in the union of Turkic clans or tribes, a clan called Circassians has long existed. This is confirmed by some geographical names in territories once inhabited by Turkic tribes. For example, the right tributary of the Katun River, which flows into the Ob, is called Cherkish [27].

[starshina wmf]

Kalmyks have a surname Sherkeshov.

[Rorabek]

During the battle on the river. The Kalke, the Mongols, supposedly "retreated" from 6 to 12 days and numerous Russian regiments were destroyed SEPARATE and CONSEQUENTLY ... because each PRINCE considered himself smarter and more important than the other and underestimated the enemy ... remained behind the river (did not go on the attack ) Suzdal regiments, but the Mongols returned to them, ... for 3 days there was a fierce battle surrounded, then the Mongols promised life for surrender and deceived ... they set tables on the survivor and feasted victory ... here's another story for you ... did I invent it myself ??? ... probably and possibly

[Riv]

HZ, who invented this istria. But imagine: you, a simple Russian warrior, have been fighting for three days surrounded by an unknown people whose appearance disgusts you. Three days of logging, many of your comrades are killed, no prisoners are taken. There is no chance of winning. Everyone has already understood this and are trying to sell their lives more expensive. And on the third day, some sort of wanderer without a clan or tribe offers you to give up. He promises that they will save their lives and let them go home.
Will you believe Hardly...
Why do you think your ancestors are idiots?

[Rorabek]

Well, at first: I don’t consider anyone idiots, in view of the simple position that I was not and could not be a participant in the above events, for obvious reasons, secondly my ancestors of the Bulgars, and together with the ancestors of the Chuvashs, defeated the FIRST Mongol army in
“Everyone is sure that the army of Chinggis Khan did not know defeat in Europe. But this is not so. She was beaten and not anywhere, but on the Volga.
History textbooks for schools diligently keep silent about this fact, works of art bypass. Fortunately, special literature is forced to briefly cover it. For example, "History of the TASSR" from 1973 describes it in as many as two sentences. "In the late autumn of 1223 the Bulgars came out to meet the Mongols, set up ambushes in several places, and when the Mongols ambushed them, the Bulgars surrounded them from all sides and killed almost all of them. Only a few, having escaped ... ... ... reached the headquarters of Genghis Khan ... ... .... "
And all about that. No one even notices this information. Although it - this victory of the Bulgarians - was of great importance for the fate not only of the peoples of modern Russia, but of the whole of Europe.
In the collection of Bulgarian chronicles "Djagfar Tarihi" ("History of Djagfar"), this battle is called "The Battle of Sheep" and dates back to September 1223. Here is how it was. After the Battle of Kalka and the capture of Kiev, the troops of Genghis Khan went to the Volga Bulgaria. Having learned about this, the Bulgarians began to prepare for the meeting. They built special fortifications near the Zhigulevsky mountains, lured the enemy there and completely defeated him. Only a few escaped. A huge number of Mongol-Tatars were taken prisoner. "Jagfar Tarihi" names the number 4 thousand. The Bulgarians did not kill them or even sold them into slavery. They traded them for rams. On the shameful condition for Chinggis Khan: one soldier - for one ram. Apparently this mockery could not bear the soul of the "shaker of the universe": three years later, Chinggis Khan died.
Thirteen years after that, the Tatar-Mongols stormed the Volga Bulgaria. There are known large campaigns in 1229,1232, 1235 and 1236, but each time they were beaten and retreated. And only in XNUMX, having gathered innumerable hordes, they managed to overcome it and break through the Volga to the West, to the Russian lands. What people, what state of Europe held back the onslaught of the Tatar-Mongol troops for at least one year? "

[ver_]

..Genghis Khan died long before Kalki, like Batu Khan .... Kalka and Kulikovo Field are one and the same event ..

[Rorabek]

Battle on the Kalka River (May 31, 1223) - the battle between the combined Russian-Polovtsian army and the Mongolian corps, operating in the framework of the campaign of Jebe and Sub-Eday in 1221-1224.
The Kulikovo Battle [8] (Mamaevo or the Battle of Don) - a decisive battle between the united Russian army led by the Moscow Grand Duke Dmitry Donskoy and the army of the Beklyarbek of the Golden Horde Mamaia, which took place on September 8, 1380 between the rivers Don, Nepryadva and Beautiful Sword, on Kulikovo Field - a historical area known by medieval sources (currently located in the southeast of the Tula region).
August 18, 1227 (65 years old) the death of Genghis Khan ... the founder and first great khan of the Mongol empire, uniting disparate Mongol tribes; commander who organized the Mongol invasion campaigns in China, Central Asia, the Caucasus and Eastern Europe. The founder of the largest continental empire in the history of mankind. Wikipedia

FUCKING ONE AND ALSO, learn the materiel

[Seal]

Excuse me, but on the basis of what documents do you personally study the materiel?

[Riv]

You changed the subject so gracefully, but actually it was not about the "battle of sheep", but about the battle of Kalka. Actually, both of them had no serious historical or strategic significance for the Russians and Bulgars and did not decide anything. But they gave a lot to the Tatars. It must be remembered that the Horde survived the battle at Kalka after they had defeated the Polovtsy and Alans and after that they were defeated by the Bulgars. Nevertheless, deep exploration could be considered successful. Several years later, Batu brilliantly proved this.

Tales of the great disorder of Genghis Khan - there are tales. Well, three years have passed! What, all these three years of sadness could not recover? Probably stopped eating and drinking, poor thing ... :)

[Rorabek]

There is nothing similar, there is a direct connection ... after the victory at Kalka, the Mongols decided to break the Bulgars along the way, and they were already with "prizes" (any victory bears fruit in the literal and figurative sense), ... so all the prizes remained with the Bulgars, but that's another story, and the rear and supply

[Riv]

You were there? Jebe and Subudai consulted right in front of you, since you so confidently say: "have decided"?

[starshina wmf]

the first time I heard that the Mongols would take Kiev after Kalka. Enlighten the ignoramus. At the battle of Kalka there was not Genghis Khan's troops, but the advanced squad Subudey Bagatura. Sent in pursuit of the Shah of Khorezm. He passed through modern Iran, Azerbaijan. Georgia and Dagestan entered the territory of the Polovtsy, where he met with an army of Russians and Polovtsy. Applying the tactics of flight, they trapped and destroyed the combined forces. The Polovtsians fled and abandoned their allies. And the Mongols who were already tired and thinned came to Bulgaria. they won. but when fresh troops arrived. then the Bulgars pressed the hat so that they completely disappeared from the steppes. And now they themselves don’t know who they are Bulgarians or Tatars.

[Riv]

Well, actually you can’t argue: really after. A few years have passed. :)

[Seal]

They built special fortifications near the Zhiguli Mountains

What are "special" fortifications? Specially built (then what) or some special, specially for the Mongol-Tatars, others (Bashkirs) and they are not caught?

lured the enemy there

Well, are you just intrigued? What Bulgars there, planted naked women?

and completely defeated him.

And how was it defeated? Outside, or did the Bulgars have to enter and inside these "special fortifications"? What's the point?

Only a few escaped.

What, not everyone was lured or someone managed to get out?

A huge number of Mongol-Tatars were taken prisoner. "Jagfar Tarihi" names the number 4 thousand.

A good book of course, it was only written 500 years after the events described in it.

The Bulgarians did not kill them and did not even sell them into slavery. They exchanged them for sheep.

And what about the sheep that the "Mongol-Tatars" were leading? Or sent messengers to Mongolia for the rams?

On the shameful condition for Chinggis Khan: one soldier - for one ram. Apparently this mockery could not bear the soul of the "shaker of the universe": three years later, Genghis Khan died.

That is, the Bulgars of the Mongol-Tatars then captured someone who was released to Genghis Khan with a proposal to exchange prisoners for sheep? And if Genghis Khan would not be at home? Well, who knows where the shock of the universe shakes the universe?
And what actually awaited the soul of Genghis Khan for three whole years? Arrows in the foot?

[Rivares]

Quote: Rorabek

For 3 days there was a fierce battle surrounded, then the Mongols promised life for surrender and deceived ... they set tables on the survivor and feasted ... there’s another story for you.

And a history textbook from the time of Ivan the Terrible says that they agreed on surrender with certain wanderers and the name of their prince is mentioned, who kissed the cross that would not touch anyone.
And then they burst in and hacked everyone, and the feast was made for THREE !!! (just) princes. Moreover, before the battle, the "Tatar-Mongols" offered the princes to settle the matter peacefully and leave their land ...

[starshina wmf]

I put a minus, but it adds a plus, I put a plus komenty, there is a minus of 1 point. Decide what.

[JonnyT]

very interesting topic, but let's not rush from one extreme to another .......

I only agree that the official version is very distorted relative to reality .....
Perhaps there was no such invasion, but there was a "showdown" of the empire with recalcitrant outskirts ...
The Mongols (or someone else) could well "crush" the neighboring tribes. Recruit an army and organize the production of weapons and conduct long-term conquest raids.
The Golden Horde had many large cities, with high-tech production at that time (metal processing) and developed trade.

No need to consider yourself the most and blame the Vatican for everything (State Department of the European Union)

[Spnsr]

Quote: JonnyT

No need to consider yourself the most and blame the Vatican for everything (State Department of the European Union)

who is behind the destruction of large states! and we can say who, just look at how many large empires there were after the collapse of the previous ones!
England, France and .... Russian Empire!
they even peed among themselves in North America! another question is what kind of war with the Confederates, it looks more like a battle between themselves, France - Canada, England and Russia, after which Russia ceded Alaska to the USA, but initially having accumulated England there, not allowing it to establish itself individually !!!
IMHO!
I’m not looking for a conspiracy, but after the collapse of the Ataman Empire, and the collapse of India, China, Persia with all the ensuing states, the Ottoman Empire with the advent of Turkey and the Balkans, each of the first lines listed, received its own level of influence in literally every formation ...
but not one stopped there, the collapse of the Russian Empire does not need to be described, and the formation of the USSR, what broke them here ??? but the USSR quickly assumed the size of the Russian Empire, but the collapse of the USSR, with the Turkic map laid down during the formation of Turkey, led to today's results ...
The British Empire, as it were, would also perish ... or maybe transform (USA) ....
or maybe there is some kind of agreement on the rules of life, an example of which the EU! the smaller and weaker the state will be both in the military and in the economic sense (the goal of the liberals in the collapse of the USSR is the division of labor between states), the easier it is to manage it, including economic methods .... because of which there is a fragmentation of large states on small and, as a result, the absorption of the EU ... for example, if Ukraine were small and already with today's economy, it would have been swallowed up, the same situation with Turkey, this is about its entry into the EU! and also about Ukraine, the more a piece is torn off from the Russian world, the smaller the large state will become, and it’s not even about Brzezinski’s theory ...

[Spnsr]

based on obvious facts, you start to look at history from a different perspective
there were three hordes, the horde is order! Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and Islam - but not this Islam that comes to us from Arabstan.
three orders of the golden horde, the white horde, and the blue horde! all these fig-tales about the invasion of Russia must be spread across the territory, which is now called Eurasia ...
the white horde broke up by itself, someone did not want to pay taxes, wanted to gain independence, or maybe wanted to change the dynasty, this happened in Europe (the white horde), and in order not to be swallowed again, that is, displaced even from a little power, he had to break up other empires, or to start bleed among themselves! despite the fact that when in the 16th century the Ottomans went to Moscow, that big empire (blue horde) was already split!
then the Romanovs came to power, they still did not know what was around, except for Europe, they might have noticed that the first maps of Europe and the European part did not even reach the Urals, and here begins the scribbling of history and nationalities to tear piece by piece for themselves!
when Europe and the Romanovs took up the Ottoman Empire, it first tried to lead everyone to Islam .... but it didn’t succeed, it enslaved the enslaved peoples anyway (especially since the USSR), especially since the Ottoman Empire imposed Islam, and tried to keep the territories by genocide, the Balkan peoples, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan were torn away, and Turkey was laid down on the part of the Ottoman Empire, and the Turkic card (a kind of trump card) was laid down rather under the Romanovs, but it crashed under the USSR
here, America has grown up, the collapse of Persia with a protracted war between Iran and Iraq, India with the advent of Pakistan, the so-called now China!
it was the same in Europe, but it is now regaining the size of a white horde, even more when you consider that the balkans are now also tending to the same place, and the Slavic card that played under the Romanovs is not playing now ....
but why do they need it? any association of them, Napoleon, Hitler for some reason brought them to our territory! but then there was no us, and now they are pulling everyone in NATO! think about it

Quote: JonnyT

No need to consider yourself the most and blame the Vatican for everything (State Department of the European Union)

how is the version of the story !? of the obvious and objective events of literally today, just such an interpretation begs!
and yet, after such a perception, people with a traditional history seem so petty in their search for evidence of the endurance of Mongolian horses ....
I do not want to offend anyone!

[Neophyte]

In historical science there is a concept of migrations of peoples? However, where did the Scythians and
Sarmatians? The same Huns, supposedly were from the Trans-Baikal regions? So, in modern Hungary, in the local Magyar dialects there are a lot of words from the Kirghiz-Kaisak (Kazakh) peoples, and Attila is a national hero! Lyakhs, for example, consider themselves descendants of the Sarmatians, which is a priori, controversial! The resettlement of tribes from East to West occurred very slowly, a lot depended on pastures, since these tribes were nomads! Raids and wars always depended on the availability of food for horses, and the nomads did not use grain! So that the author of the article is right! The innumerable supposedly hordes would not have been able to feed in a wooded and swampy area, which was then the Great Russian Plain! These stories speak of the advancement of the "Tatar-Mongols" in the southern regions and only when there was fresh grass cover!

[Penzuck]

Quote: Neophyte

The innumerable supposedly hordes would not have been able to feed in a wooded and swampy area, which was then the Great Russian Plain! These stories speak of the advancement of the "Tatar-Mongols" in the southern regions and only when there was fresh grass cover!

In the second half of the XVII - the first quarter of the XVIII century. Penza was repeatedly attacked by Azov, Nogai, Kalmyks, Bashkirs. In July 1680, the enemy succeeded in destroying the townships and settlements; the last attack on Penza took place at the beginning of August 1717. The campaign of the Nogai, Circassians, Circassians was led by the "Saltan" (military leader) Bakhty-Girey, a representative of the Khan dynasty of the Crimean Tatars. The siege of Penza lasted from 3 to 7 August, but the fortress could not be taken. As a result of this attack, by decree of the tsar, the 4th dragoon regiment was deployed between Penza and Saratov, after which the Kuban raids ceased. In the XVIII century. Penza lost all strategic and tactical importance, thus completing its military history.
So the garrison is up to 1000 people, residents of the settlement of 1000 + residents of the posad. those. together with the troops of 5-7 thousand people. And the besiegers were: about 10 000 people. Captured around 30 000 as a result of the entire campaign

[SokolfromRussia]

The site seems to have nothing more to publish, since they put such nonsense ...

[Sweles]

Quote: SokolfromRussia

The site seems to have nothing more to publish, since they put such nonsense ...

apparently, this is some kind of general information policy of all the Russian media representing a stinking pit of deceitful, half-dead and propaganda information dumped on the heads of a controlled plebs.
And the owners of the information do not even bother with any plausibility, the same full-time top "historian" Samsonov writes on demand on any topic. Last time I wrote that there was a Tatar-Mongolian, now I wrote that there was no Tatar-Mongolian. And all the dregs rose from the bottom of the sewer - "yes, yes it was, no, no, it was not."
You can already say for sure looking at today's comments, the essence and meaning of such stuffing on historical topics is just to chat about something, you can talk about it for years, about the same thing - "TMI was, TMI was not." And it becomes quite clear, that you are not talking with people, but at best with paid infoleshim who have several faces, who write the same thing in different words, then they disappear and new "personalities" appear and so on ad infinitum ...

[gnv731]

The article has reasons to think. As a resident of the countryside, I will talk "in a peasant way." Do you know how much hay a horse / cow eats? To provide feed for the cow for the winter, a large tractor hay wagon is required, plus compound feed. Now let's imagine how a hundred-thousand-strong army captured Russia in winter.

Writer Yang writes that the Mongols rode on 2 horses, on the third they transported the required supplies. Try to find food for 200-300 thousand horses in winter, fairy tales about how horses hoofed snow and eat dry grass are somehow not convincing, at least in our Orenburg conditions they are not confirmed. Especially if the snow meter deposits. Yes, roe deer, moose winter. But they have their own habitat and there are not hundreds of thousands of heads, in a limited space.
A large number of cattle was required to feed the warriors. With significant physical exertion, nutrition should be appropriate. It is also necessary to take into account a large number of draft horses carrying wall-hung guns and other military equipment. And also stones for wall-hung guns (pebbles should more or less meet certain standards and everywhere such stones do not roll).

As a result, it turns out that a hundred-thousand-strong army must carry with them more than half a million heads of cattle, hundreds of tons of cargo (yurts, carpets, felt felt, etc.), firewood and feed (after all, there is little firewood in the steppes, and even a "hardened Mongol" And to drag over distances of thousands of kilometers in the absence of roads. Let those who doubt this article try to cross a couple of three regions of Russia in winter, sleeping in the "fresh" air, on 2-3 horses off-road. Or arrange logistic supply of an army of tens of thousands of people off-road using horses.

It should be noted that each warrior used tens of kilograms of iron (arrowheads, because they fired a lot, protection for the body, swords that break down in battle and require replacement or repair, boilers for food, on raw meat, crawling under the saddle of a horse, is unlikely you can fight for years, portable forges for the repair of weapons). Where does this iron come from? If in Russia 300 years ago there were no iron shovels and plows, and the land was cultivated with wood, since there was little iron and it was expensive.

We should not forget about the organization of troops. Professional warriors, who have been trained since childhood, can break up shepherd detachments ten times greater in number.

It is worth pondering where did yesterday's shepherds get their sword fighting skills and the "elven" skill of archery. Are they in the steppe under the harshest natural conditions, is that the only thing they do? Look at the inhabitants of our far north, great martial art is not among their merits. Or take the natives who were colonized by the conquistadors. Why were the aborigines, with total superiority in human resources and knowledge of the characteristics of their land, exterminated? This is reminiscent of the inconsistencies in Darwin's theory that man descended from ape. When asked why monkeys are not turning into humans now, they say that the conditions are not the same.

And, in the end, where so many shepherds came from, with a shortage of food and high mortality, because there were no supermarkets in the Mongolian steppes then.

There are a lot of such "why" to which the official version of history cannot clearly answer. How can he not answer the question of who lived in Arkaim and why they left it, who lived in neighboring settlements older than the pyramids and where did these people go. Why the Chinese and Japanese, with significant human resources, did not populate Siberia and the Far East, after all, according to the official version, it is not clear who lived there backward small tribes.

[Chisayna]

Well, as it were, wrestling, archery, horse racing are the nomad’s favorite sports. In August, a holiday, there you can see it all. I saw how standing on a horse they mounted an arrow in a sack, and you can do it. Siberia is full of mountains , and that means ores. There is also a lot of coal. I have already written and will write. They do not find in the mounds of the Valley of Tsars-bast shoes, Novgorod birch bark letters, hryvnias and other artifacts of Ancient Russia.

[gnv731]

Naturally, you will not find birch bark and bast shoes, but they rot.
Horse racing and archery, this is not an explanation of the great martial art. War and hunting are different concepts.
Reindeer herders also arrange reindeer races, and practice the "Nanai boys" wrestling, and throw lasso aptly. Why didn't they capture the whole world then?

[Chisayna]

Fighting, archery instills a spirit. Or is it their hobby? Every year I go through the Valley of the Kings, there are 200-300 (two hundred or three hundred) volunteers in the excavations. Read about Arzhaan-2. And compare with the excavations in Novgorod. And the climate in the Valley of the Kings is not damp as in the northwest, if the grain is preserved.

[gnv731]

Alaverdi. Come to Arkaim, according to some estimates, the age of the ancient settlements there exceeds the age of the Egyptian pyramids.

At the expense of the persistence of the Russian spirit and confirmations are not required. Many episodes of the second world example.

At the expense of excavations in Veliky Novgorod, again the climate, and even archaeologists did not reach many historical layers.

And in our Orenburg region near my village, excavations are being carried out, a large number of historical artifacts have been found, burial mounds with ancient burials have been found.

And so what? I am simply expressing my distrust of the official interpretation of the Tatar-Mongol invasion that exists now. And I continue to argue that small nomads living at a great distance from each other cannot create an army of many thousands and go tens of thousands of kilometers, simultaneously destroying countries that are more developed in technical and military terms. I am closer to the version that the Tatar-Mongolian army is represented by a combined "hodgepodge" of many nationalities and this army was used as an instrument of squabbles between princes and khans. And the Mongols were made, excuse the expression, "locomotives."

Here are some recent examples of how history is being rewritten: according to official versions, in 17 the Bolsheviks overthrew the tsar with money from foreign intelligence services. According to other versions, for example, Fursov, whom I respect, his entourage was behind the overthrow of the tsar, many of whom were fueled by foreigners. The Bolsheviks did not overthrow the tsar. Again, there are "stories" about how well life was before the revolution, how the country was developing rapidly, how "the evenings were delightful to the crunch of a French roll." In fact, the elite completely cut themselves off from the people, despising them, even choosing a foreign language as their home language, building castles and resting "on the waters" abroad, and the country was degraded. Every year it lags behind the West more and more in technical and intellectual development.
The second example is the Great Patriotic War. "Our Tang friends" in their schools teach that Hitler was defeated by the Western coalition, and the Japanese are taught that the Soviets dropped the atomic bomb on them. Although Hitler was "nourished" on the money of America and Britain and the national team of all of Europe fought on his side, supporting him with both people and equipment.

Fifty years later, perhaps in the official versions about this war there will not be a word about the USSR.

Same thing with ancient history. For example, Christianity is very jealous of the history of pre-Christian Russia. It is so jealous that we have practically no Slavic names left, mainly Greek and Jewish.

[Chisayna]

I can say the same thing. Come to Kyzyl, to the local history museum. Only inspect the exhibits carefully. And then the template will tear. There are arrowheads, their age is more than a thousand years old and chain mail and swords. And Scythian gold, age 2700 years.

[Chisayna]

Yes, but with the Scythian gold, an unpleasant story happened, something like the Altai princess. Archaeologists from St. Petersburg almost appropriated this gold, there were rumors that they found a buyer for gold abroad. And only the intervention of Shoigu returned the Kyzyl golds. Yes, and yours the question is about metal. In Tuva, coal goes to the surface of the earth. Stupidly come and pick up. There is coal, there are still mountains all around, which means there is iron and copper ore. And from Kyzyl to the border with Mongolia it’s only 150 km. For nomads, this is not the distance.

[gnv731]

Excerpt from the article: "Anthropological and genetic studies have established the absence of her belonging to the Mongoloid race and showed a pronounced belonging to the Caucasians, which was even more clearly confirmed by the reconstruction of the face of the girl from the mound on a craniological basis." The address of the article is http://posibiri.ru/altajskaya-princessa/.

For fun, I googled a couple more articles, the same everywhere. Analysis shows that "Princess Ukok" belongs to the Caucasian race. The reconstruction of her photo in "Unloved Vicki" shows that she has Caucasian features.

So, what does the break in the template have to do with it? This once again proves that the Scythian tribes were of the European race and cast doubt on the Tatar-Mongol invasion.

And what about the fact that there are mountains? In the Urals, mass processing of ore began under Peter 1.

In fact, there is a big difference between the availability of natural resources and their processing. And the nomads differ from the settled tribes in the absence of a permanent place of stay. Herds need to be grazed, however. Or do you know the nomads who carry with them a forge, a furnace for smelting metals, tools, coal and ore reserves?

The production of metal products requires a sedentary lifestyle and the continuity of generations of craftsmen who transfer experience to their descendants. And how does this fit with the nomadic peoples? Here it is necessary to decide whether you graze cattle, or work in production. Otherwise, in your words, a pattern break may occur.

[Chisayna]

How did the Uyghur and Kyrgyz khanates live here without blacksmiths? Probably blacksmiths came to them from Novgorod. And what about Mount Elegest. It has ancient mines over a thousand years old. Again, the Novgorodians mined ore there like that? The ancient nomads were so stupid that they didn’t could master blacksmithing. And who built Por-Bazhyn? Drevlyane or clearing probably?

[Chisayna]

About the princess of Ukok. I did not write that she was a Mongoloid. Yes, and with her everything is not so clean. They violated her temperature regime of storage. The mummy underwent deformation, mold appeared, so find something else.

[Chisayna]

In your "unloved Vicki" I found the settlement of Hovu-Aksy, near it ancient mines dating back to the Bronze Age and the Early Iron Age were found. Who developed these mines, again Novgorodians or Pskovites?

[Seal]

And Scythian gold, age 2700 years.

And that, on the gold of the Scythians, the manufacturer's stamp "Made in Skyfia, 700 BC" stands so directly. (in Scythian of course)?

[Chisayna]

Archaeologists from St. Petersburg said that the Scythian gold was 2700 (two thousand seven hundred years). But few believed them. It was necessary to drive them out of the republic in disgrace. And make them pour it back, all the mounds that were excavated. Now everyone will know that archaeologists from St. Petersburg, liars and unclean on hand.

[Seal]

Some such archaeologists 10 or 15 years ago found a copper helmet, the most natural, the most ancient, but I just don’t remember where, either on the islands of Greece, or in the west of Turkey - well, in general, they were found where it was supposed to be.
All the raspberries were spoiled by a relative of one of the archaeologists. He, damn it, turned out to be a chemist. And taking advantage of family ties he pulled off a microscopic piece of copper from his helmet. And conducted an isotope analysis. Copper was of Chilean origin.

[Chisayna]

Here I am about the same thing. Archaeologists from St. Petersburg are liars and scammers. What is the Scythian gold? What are the Scythians-Caucasians. There are no such Scythians and never have been.

[Chisayna]

And yet, these archaeologists from St. Petersburg have set their sights on Por-Bazhyn. Don’t let it out! Let them search for color blooms in their land areas, dumps, homeless people in the Lena oblast, they will be more useful. And people will not be mislead

[starshina wmf]

Nobody defeated the Chukchi at all. The units that sent them all were destroyed.

[KaPToC]

Each type of activity has its own professional tools. A bow is a tool of a hunter, not a shepherd.

[Seal]

favorite sports of nomads.

Are you talking about the Mongolian Mongols or some other nomads?

[Chisayna]

And about the Mongols and about other nomads. And yes, I almost forgot. In the mounds of the Valley of the Kings, there are not Scythian-Europeanoids (there are none and there weren’t-it’s a lie of archaeologists from St. Petersburg) but homeless people from the Kyzyl morgue, here.

[Seal]

But did you actually see the Mongolian races?

[Riv]

If you open a barn with historical knowledge, then the number of Tatar troops that defeated Russia is estimated at 60.000 people.

But, as in the well-known vulgar joke, there is a nuance: the yard was full of feudalism. There has never been such a Russia. There were Smolensk, Moscow, Ryazan, etc. The princes of the cities fought with each other over and without reason. A rare year passed without a war. Therefore, the Tatars could well recruit infantry from local residents ("Ryazan, let's go rob Moscow!" "Let's get together now, five seconds!") And even princes with their squads. Mentions of how the Russian princes are on the side of the Horde can be counted in dozens.

Of course, the Horde troops were used in the same way in the princely showdown. The same Nevsky how many times in this noticed? So the figure of 60 thousand is likely to be too high.

[Riv]

If you open a barn with historical knowledge, then the number of Tatar troops that defeated Russia is estimated at 60.000 people.

But, as in the well-known vulgar joke, there is a nuance: the yard was full of feudalism. There has never been such a Russia. There were Smolensk, Moscow, Ryazan, etc. The princes of the cities fought with each other over and without reason. A rare year passed without a war. Therefore, the Tatars could well recruit infantry from local residents ("Ryazan, let's go rob Moscow!" "Let's get together now, five seconds!") And even princes with their squads. Mentions of how the Russian princes are on the side of the Horde can be counted in dozens.

Of course, the Horde troops were used in the same way in the princely showdown. The same Nevsky how many times in this noticed? So the figure of 60 thousand is likely to be too high.

[Bruss]

Another nuance is the estimated number of princely squads (regiment, division, or whatever it has there)! What I mean!? Who could be recruited and from whom to choose? This is a lifelong deal! This man will never sow and graze, for he becomes dependent on the prince and (or) prey from the campaign. Therefore, than this person should stand out from the general population! There may not be any skills, but the physical form must be!
A modern example, as a model for reasoning: the part of the Soviet army, in which I served in military service, was staffed with guys whose height could not be less than 180 cm. So candidates were collected in all nearby and not very regions. And we barely recruited the necessary 300! (Please note, THREE people) once every six months. And if we assume that hundreds of cavalrymen with full armor are more than enough for the prince, then the "Mongols" (rzhunemagu) will have enough for a successful "invasion" of three hundred men for their eyes, and even inviting the Ryazants to rob Maaskwa is a win-win operation!

[Riv]

If you open a barn with historical knowledge, then the number of Tatar troops that defeated Russia is estimated at 60.000 people.

But, as in the well-known vulgar joke, there is a nuance: the yard was full of feudalism. There has never been such a Russia. There were Smolensk, Moscow, Ryazan, etc. The princes of the cities fought with each other over and without reason. A rare year passed without a war. Therefore, the Tatars could well recruit infantry from local residents ("Ryazan, let's go rob Moscow!" "Let's get together now, five seconds!") And even princes with their squads. Mentions of how the Russian princes are on the side of the Horde can be counted in dozens.

Of course, the Horde troops were used in the same way in the princely showdown. The same Nevsky how many times in this noticed? So the figure of 60 thousand is likely to be too high.

[novel66]

great buddy !! only economics - the Mongols were exclusively invented by sofa historians, and you are looking at the essence!

[novel66]

wonderful view from an economic point of view! the Mongols invented couch scientists, well, they could not take this into account.

[Rorabek]

Fine and well-reasoned conclusions, but: the fact is that the Mongol cavalry, like any horse of the steppe peoples, HAD NO LIABILITY and CARRYED EVERYTHING AND BORNED ... therefore there were no boilers of any other property ... so to speak, national features troops are usually individual

[Riv]

And what evidence is there of the lack of convoys in the Horde?

[Rorabek]

They literally transported horse meat under the ass, specially processed meat (Kazylyk is called by the Tatars, I don’t know by the Mongols) ... intelligence always determined places for feeding horses (pasture), and competent commanders planned the route for the advance of horse groups determined according to this factor ... in those days, people were also literate, in their own way
the main principle of the Mongolian cavalry is high mobility, ... Suvorov also liked to say "speed and onslaught"

[Riv]

Eating horses ... Meat under the ass ... Dear young man, you believe fairy tales in vain. Who told you that?

In 1237, the Tatars invaded Russia WINTER. What other places to eat? Can you imagine how long it will take to feed a horse grass out of the snow? Probably no less than thawing this your little tongue, which, incidentally, does not tumble under your ass, but is (surprise!) A home-made sausage.

In general, thanks for your post. He laughed. Especially about the sausage smiled. :)))

[ver_]

..the population of "Mongolia" in the 13th century - 15 thousand people, together with women, old men, old women, children .. So there are no more than 4 thousand people at the age of a Warrior ... You yourself can conclude how many "warriors" went on a campaign? ...

[Rorabek]

Rosstat data ???

[Pomeranian]

Quote: gnv731

Do you know how much hay a horse / cow eats? To provide cow feed for the winter, a large tractor cart of hay, plus feed, is required. Now imagine how a hundred thousandth army captured Russia in winter.

I will tell you a terrible secret. the best feed for a horse is grain.

[Seal]

Quote: Pomoryanin

I will tell you a terrible secret. the best feed for a horse is grain.

And, what, big grain wedges in the Ryazanschina or in the Vladimir region? And how is the yield? And what was actually grown? Wheat or rye?

[Pomeranian]

Quote: Seal

And, what, big grain wedges in the Ryazanschina or in the Vladimir region? And how is the yield? And what was actually grown? Wheat or rye?

Well, I’ve already seen the level of your knowledge: the school curriculum, excuse me generously. What kind of wheat? Rye, barley. Yield, given the climatic features of the middle of the 13 century, is not very record-breaking, but it was enough. Tell me, why do you consider Subedea and Batu to be complete idiots who did not send intelligence to Russia and did not find out the level of reserves, given the summer harvest of 1236 of the year? I doubt that they were dumber than you.

[Seal]

I apologize generously. Apparently I studied at such a good school, compared to which it’s a shame to name your school and school.

A Mongolian horse can eat rye?

Yields, given the climatic features of the mid-13th century, are not very record-breaking, but enough

Enough for whom? To the population?
Or cattle? Or to the population and livestock?
And actually, what volume of the crop as a whole could be in that region?

Tell me, why do you think Subedea and Batu are complete idiots who did not send intelligence to Russia and did not find out the level of stocks, given the summer crop of 1236?

What does it mean to send intelligence? Intelligence is how much? One scout? 10 scouts? 100 scouts? 1000 scouts?
And what, all these scouts were agronomists, able to determine the future crop by one type of sprouts? and what, did they all go around the princely collective farms or confine themselves to selective monitoring of the fields? But this is bad luck - even under the USSR, the yield on neighboring collective farms could differ significantly.
And did the scouts even identify a rye crop that they had never seen before?
And what, the princely counterintelligence could not catch a single Subedean-Batyevsky scout?

I doubt that they were dumber than you.

Do not doubt. Regarding himself, too

Excuse me, you are not tired of all the new and new details and "Tatar-Mongol invasion" from your fingers to suck? You will be left without fingers at all, forgive generously for taking care of your fingers, you still have to knock and knock on the keyboard with them.

[Pomeranian]

Quote: Seal

Apparently I studied at such a good school, compared to which it’s a shame to name your school and school.

Well, where am I going to you, the thinker theorist. We somehow all pens, pens ... For example, I know that a horse is any grain, and not just hay. Best of all, of course, oats, but rye will go.

Quote: Seal

And actually, what volume of the crop as a whole could be in that region?

You don’t wag your tail here. Apparently, the harvest was good in 1237, otherwise you wouldn’t attack. No matter how many ugliness, people always get their own grain for food and cattle for food. Enemies came and they took everything.

Quote: Seal

And did the scouts even identify a rye crop that they had never seen before?

well yes. All around are such stupid people (except you, of course) that they did not bother to find out from the merchants: what do they offer more at the auction in the autumn of the 1237 of the year in Ryazan and Vladimir? Is there a loaf of bread with hay on sale and how much? What is the condition of roads and ice on the rivers? It’s simple in your computer shooter, but it’s a bit more complicated in life. A clear calculation: the condition of roads, fortifications, the harvest of last year - all this was in Batu and Subedea, from merchants, traitors or their own intelligence. I repeat, were they really dumber than you, having attacked Russia with a kondachka?

Quote: Seal

Excuse me, you are not tired of all the new and new details and "Tatar-Mongol invasion" from your fingers to suck?

This is just my knowledge. Against your ignorance. I have the honor!

[Seal]

I have the honor!

Yes, you have your "honor" 10 times a day. Maybe give her a break already?
Again:
a) What is your military education if you are talking about your "knowledge" that is incomprehensible neither to me, nor to the mass of the local people.
b) Did you actually serve in the Army? If "yes" - in which troops and by whom?

A clear calculation: the condition of roads, fortifications, the harvest of last year - all this was in Batu and Subedea, from merchants, traitors or their own intelligence.

Tell me honestly, who have you read? Pikula, or what?
Yes, at least once in a while, turn on your head. At the beginning of the 17th century, the Kalmyks Mongoloids appeared on our territory. So what ? Did they forget that first they need to send intelligence and so on?

Your knowledge .... your knowledge ... yes, you really have no knowledge. Some unfounded historical fantasies.
Have you ever been familiar with the text of the Approved Charter in 1613? Are there any Mongols? Are there any Tatars?
Have you studied all the birch bark letters found in Russia and Belarus? So what ? Is there at least an indirect hint of the Mongols in them? And to the Tatars? What about the Baskakov?
And with the 1799 book of the printing house of the Russian Academy of Sciences: "Description of the peoples living in the Russian Empire." Do you know what it says about the appearance of the Mongols in Russia? You don't know shit !!! And with honor you have, how could I put it mildly for you .... well, consider that the problem!

[Seal]

Well, where am I going to you, the thinker theorist. We somehow all pens, pens ... For example, I know that a horse is any grain, and not just hay. Best of all, of course, oats, but rye will go.

Well, I'm sorry .. you are the same. Which is all pens ... pens. Maybe you still need to stop handles, and try to find a woman? And then you apparently do not have a free head to think for a minute. Playful pens take away all the time, right? Maybe you would know then that rye can be given to horses exclusively in small quantities. From rye in horses, colic in the stomach happens. And it is necessary to accustom her to rye gradually.
Damn, you need to gradually accustom to any new feed of horses. If a Mongolian horse has been eating grass for millennia, then its stomach is tuned to digest grass. And if she was suddenly suddenly driven away from her native pastures, they were driven on a hike, where they began to feed exclusively oats - and that could be a problem.
And you need to drink horses. Of course, a horse and snow can crawl. But she needs to drink.

You don’t wag your tail here. Apparently, in 1237 the crop was good, otherwise you wouldn’t attack

When you write answers to people - try to stop .. this is the most pens. Otherwise, your "tail" so to speak - it crawls into your answer. Like now.
This is that historical argument

Apparently, in 1237 there was a good harvest, otherwise they would not have attacked

Damn, you in your arrogance of creating unsubstantiated arguments surpassed Fursenko himself by an order of magnitude !!!
I guess this is your masterpiece
Apparently there was - therefore attacked.
I’ll bring it into the collection.
To the collection of nonsense expressed by opponents.

The rest is waiting for you to finally share with me and others the level of your military education and military experience in the army.
For I can no longer disassemble your babble. I laugh so that fingers do not hit the keys.

[KaPToC]

Is writer Yang writing? Are you kidding me? Let’s write a story based on what writers write, such as the writer Wells.

[Pomeranian]

Quote: KaPToC

Is writer Yang writing? Are you kidding me? Let’s write a story based on what writers write, such as the writer Wells.

In the "Lives" of the saints, the true truth is often written. I write without a trace of irony.

[Seal]

In the "Lives" of the saints, the true truth is often written. I write without a trace of irony.

This is the same and sad that without a shadow of irony. Faith clearly replaces knowledge for you. And weaning to think.

[Seal]

But believe it?

Albert Maksimov has an interesting version. Perhaps these were small detachments of the son of Yuri Bogolyubsky. That is, the grandson of the first Russian autocrat Andrei Bogolyubsky. It is believed that Yuri Bogolyubsky, pursued by his uncle - Vsevolod the Big Nest, was forced to flee to the Polovtsy, and then, having been the husband of the Georgian queen Tamar, then disappeared somewhere. And if he did not disappear, but lived quietly, for example, in the Nicene Empire. And already his son wanted to restore power and punish the descendants of Vsevolod-Big Nest. Here he (the character of Batu Khan) and his elderly father (the character of Sudebei-bagatur, who, according to the traditional version of the story, was Batu, as it were, "like a father"), accompanied by a small detachment (maximum of several thousand people) arrive in Russia and first explain , who they are and why they appeared here. And they work neatly. They don't go to their cities. Therefore, neither Smolensk, nor Chernigov, nor Novgorod, nor Polotsk, nor Pskov and so on, which apparently were not part of the principality of Andrei Bogolyubsky, were not affected. Even the youngest sons of Vsevolod the Big Nest and their descendants, who, due to their age, could not be involved in the murder of Andrei Bogolyubsky and the persecution of Yuri Bogolyubsky, are treated quite gently.
Having established his power, the grandson of Andrei Bogolyubsky, accustomed to life in the south, most likely settled south, on the Kuban or on the Lower Volga. Where did the princes appointed by him go with reports.
By tradition, the Bogolyubsky patronize the church - in Russia there is a tremendous growth of monasteries, new dioceses are being established.
Then, the grandchildren or great-grandchildren of Andrei Bogolyubsky's grandson, who are in the south, accept Islam, that is, they become non-fertile. But this does not greatly affect the attitude of the so-called "Horde" (the rates of the descendants of the Bogolyubskys) and Russia. Whoever wants to move from the Horde to Russia - he calmly moves to Russia, who wants - on the contrary, goes from Russia to the "Horde".
In general, here is such a beautiful version.

[srha]

Steppes, nomads - an invincible army. Yeah.

Nomads of the Kazakh steppes have such a word - jute - extinction of cattle from cold or drought and subsequent hunger. And sometimes there is a big jute until the 30s of the last century marked in the steppe with a frequency of 10-12 years:

"The jutes were different, sometimes partial, sometimes large, devastating for the entire Kazakh steppe. With each large jute, a huge mass of nomads lost their livestock and turned into beggars." How they cursed fate for the fact that, having deprived them of their livestock, the jute did not carry away and them themselves, but doomed them to a slow death by starvation. Such jutes took away thousands of human lives ... Could a person feel like the master of nature? [14, C.26]. If large jutes were repeated approximately every 10-12 years, then partial ones were almost annually here and there. Jutes 1855-1856; 1867-1868; 1879-1880; 1891 were fatal in their consequences. -1892; 1903-1904, 1910-1911, etc. Kazakhs singled out large and small jutes, which occur with different frequency. So large (large) jutes usually fall on the year of the hare according to the animal calendar. jutes every 36 years, they were called "ulkun-jute" (great jute). In such years, 60 percent of horses died, half the number of sheep and camels, almost the entire number of goats. Almost half of the many nomads died out.

Source: http://e-history.kz/ru/contents/view/1839
© e-history.kz "

Someone believe that nomads lived better in the 13th century than in the 19th? But can a community that periodically and quite often fails to manage its feed collect, feed, arm, train and organize a campaign against its neighbors (by the way an order of magnitude more stable and productive due to the use of agriculture) of a powerful army? For some reason, it seems to me that on the second point everything is collapsing.

So not the nomads got it ...

By the way, if someone remembers Davlet Giray with his campaigns in Moscow or the Kazan and Astrakhan khanates conquered before, or even the Bulgars and Khazars, then please take into account that their nomadic troops relied on farmers and, even, cities (craft-quality armor and weapons). And Davlet on the Ottomans.

[Pomeranian]

Quote: srha

Does someone believe that nomads lived better in the 13 century than in the 19?

Do you consider climatic conditions? They can differ significantly in different eras. Look out on the street.

[srha]

I do not even understand what you mean? In fact, nomads are not found in the forests! And they are found in the steppes and deserts. But even if there appears a Garden of Eden in paradise conditions, then there will be no nomads there anymore - they migrate with their steppe herds to the steppe.

Therefore, just in case, let me remind you that the steppes are zones where precipitation falls irregularly and insufficient even for tree growth. And then the usual annual deviations and, as a fact, periodic jutes with nomadic farming.

And if somewhere, once the climatic conditions are changing, then the type of landscape is changing. And for the appearance of young oak forests, 20 years is enough. So the forests did not grow there. Apparently the climate was still harsh.

By the way, there are more problems in the steppes than in the forest belt, not only because there is less water, less grub, but also because there is a more continental climate, more temperature differences, both daily and seasonal, big problems from uneven precipitation, stronger wind, more infrastructure costs, etc.

[Pomeranian]

Quote: srha

I do not even understand what you mean?

How about what? Mild climate with sufficient moisture in the summer. Let not quite a good example - the Hungarian Pashta. The climate is quite suitable for increasing livestock and population growth. Considering that the cooling in Europe began in the 12 century, the amount of precipitation in the Siberian steppe zone, respectively, increased. There could be good climatic conditions for the growth of livestock and population.

[srha]

Could not. If the forest does not grow, then the conditions are worse.

By the way, do you really think that steppe herds are comfortable in "sufficient moisture"?

But even if the balance shifted and the number increased sharply. So the probability of an epidemic plague will jump sharply. Here, in the past, 2015, they wrote that 3/4 saigas died in the steppes. And in my memory this is not the first time.

But even the ancient shamans dealt with this.

The following question arises - what productivity does the nomadic economy provide? How many times less settled? How many people will be able to feed a hectare of steppe, and how many hectares of arable land? The difference is an order of magnitude, if only because the nomadic economy produces meat products, and arable land provides grain. But actually the difference is much greater. During nomadic cattle breeding, pastures are practically knocked out by hoofs of numerous flocks, while when settled, pastures are used more efficiently, and feed is still being harvested without trampling.

Other reasons can probably not be considered, such as infrastructure, the costs of a nomadic way of life - you will not take away anything large and productive with you, neither a mill, nor a forge, and even the best yurt is worse than a bad house.

Here's another oddity, Yermak, already in the 16th century, with an eight-hundredth detachment, drove the heirs of "multi-hundredthousand" nomads across Siberia. And none of the former hordes migrated to Russia (and other countries as well), did they really prefer to die out in the steppes, or never were these hordes there?

So the nomads could not ... Sedentary Chinese, Central Asian, some other unknowns, the Lemurians could be, but not nomads - it was difficult for them to feed the family.

And it’s interesting why, as soon as the data compiled by bureaucrats (18,19 centuries) appear, the population of nomads is rare and frail, and as soon as the annals and historians are an epic force ...

[Seal]

Considering the fact that the cooling in Europe began in the 12th century

Lord, how many times do you have to catch your hand in order to stop your playful hands, with which you do and cheat?
Well, that's where, from what bottomless well of your nonsense, you pulled this nonsense about "cooling in Europe since the 12th century"

Where does it get cold first? Damn, this fan of apparently Gumilyov and Pikul, now really will say that in Africa
In fact, in the first place, it begins to get colder in the north. And what do we have in the North? And in the north we have Greenland. And that we have Greenland, frozen and died out in the 12th century? No, according to the traditional version of history (I don’t even try to explain other more scientific versions of history to you - you don’t even know the traditional version of history) Greenland flourished in the 12th century.

The Greenland colony was an independent republic until 1261, when its population swore allegiance to the Norwegian king. The deterioration of the climate, which began in the XIV century, made agriculture and cattle breeding more difficult on the island and contributed to the acceleration of the decline of the Greenland colony.

What say scientists specializing in climate.

A series of volcanic eruptions in the middle of the 13th century could have been one of the triggers of the "Little Ice Age" - an era of severe cooling in the late Middle Ages and in modern times, American geophysicists say.

To date, the exact time frame for this cooling period has not been determined. According to NASA's official definition, the Little Ice Age lasted with short warm "breaks" from 1550 to 1850. Most climatologists and geophysicists associate its active phase with a drop in solar activity in the period from 1640 to 1710, which was called the Maunder minimum.

As the researchers note, many European chronicles of the Middle Ages contain references to a series of unusually cold autumns and winters that destroyed the harvest and brought with them the "Great Famine" of 1315-1317. After that, a period of sharp cooling of the climate began - glaciers began to advance in northern Scandinavia, snow appeared in Italy, and rivers began to freeze in Scotland and England in winter, which had not been observed before.
In their work, scientists have studied 94 fragments of "fossil" moss, the age of which ranged from 800 to 2000 AD. Most of the plant remains were found in the late 13th century and early 14th century. This indicates that during that era, climatic conditions deteriorated sharply, which led to the almost simultaneous death of plants and their burial under the glacier.

Maybe it’s enough for you to suck your fingers on your playful little hands?

[Seal]

Do you consider climatic conditions?

Just take into account. Do you consider? Do you know what climate is in Mongolia? If you don’t know, then I inform you that Mongolia has a sharply continental climate. It is characterized by low snow and dry snow. And if it's cold, it's cold. The temperature per day from minus to plus twice does not jump. That is, the snow cover in Mongolia is small and dry. Therefore, unpretentious Mongolian horses growing from our ponies, even without being savvy, can easily get grass from under the snow.
And on the Middle European Plain, the climate is Atlantic. It means that ? That there is a lot of snow. And temperature drops from minus to plus form an crust of crust on the snow.
And what do unpretentious Mongolian horses do when once every ten to fifteen years some winter cyclone comes to Mongolia in winter, carrying snow and temperature drops from minus to plus and back?
That's right, unpretentious Mongolian horses begin to die massively! Because it is not able to break through the crust of the infusion. It hurts them, the ice cuts the legs!

[Pomeranian]

Quote: Seal

Do you know what climate is in Mongolia? If you don’t know, I inform you that Mongolia has a sharply continental climate

Well, I understand that you are an opponent, not older than 35 years old. Well, I can’t do anything about it, I have a Soviet education, and you have a Russian, model of Comrade. Fursenko, therefore, I know that in the 13 century the climate in the Mongolian steppes turned from arid to humid due to the onset of global cooling in the northern hemisphere. And google to help you. To help me were archives and libraries. For the rest, your thinking is what an iPhone or an iPad will advise (I get confused all the time, excuse me) alas and ah. I have the honor!

[Mr. Pipper]

I'm shocked

How could the semi-wild shepherds (albeit warlike) crush such developed powers as China, Khorezm, the Tangut kingdom

And indeed!
How could the "semi-wild shepherds" (probably all the same nomads!) Crush the slightly less semi-wild "China and so on" in the age of feudal fragmentation, when "hand-to-hand fighting" was deciding on the battlefield
Or does the author think that +8 to arithmetic and +12 to astronomy gave a bonus to the "attack" of the Chinese ?!
But fig - did not give!

any conqueror relies on a developed economy

Yeah - the nomads relied on horse breeding and bow making, this gave +48 to the attack on the "pihota"

Even now, Mongolia is a deserted, sparsely populated country with minimal military potential.

But count, author -> author -> author, that now Mongolia is THREE COUNTRIES - One of which is the province of China, and Raseyushka is 17 countries - and how was it that the Finns could launch a rocket into space ?!
In general, brilliant, we are waiting for proof that "the Arabs of Egypt could not build the great pyramids" !!!!!

For thousands of years, Russian troops were divided in a similar way, according to the decimal system.

well if for millennia then yes, you really can't argue with this "argument" - it's most likely hopelessly "
In general, the decimal system is not because "Scatter is the birthplace of the elephant", but because a person has 10 fingers on his hands!

[Penzuck]

author -> author -> author, - hehe identity A_ftor wrote?

[Mr. Pippers]

Quote: Penzuck

also A_ftor wrote

Yeahhhh

[Riv]

And ten on my feet too ... Vague doubts torment me that you think the wrong fingers.

[Mr. Pipper]

from a biology course it is known that the genes of Negroids and Mongoloids are dominant.

FAQ ?! Urgently read at least a little bit on GENETICS - the USSR school textbook on biology does not roll here at all
I recommend starting with the main one and not writing nonsense: genotype + external environment + random changes → phenotype
So genes are a genotype, and appearance is a phenotype!
And with dominant genes an even bigger jamb, but it takes a long time to paint

[Pomeranian]

Quote: Mister Pipper

And with dominant genes an even bigger jamb, but it takes a long time to paint

I’ll increase your rating. A very sensible remark.

[Mr. Pippers]

Quote: Pomoryanin

I’ll increase your rating.

Thanks - but it's useless

[bbss]

No, Martians !!!

[Inq]

Already tired of these neo-pagans. The passage about the thousands of years of the division of Russian troops into detachments especially delivered. Alexander Nevsky as the adopted son of Batu ... The author accepted the potion potion. However, there is plenty of such heresy in the open spaces of Runet. It’s not clear how she appears here.

[sakmasaget]

we are all from mars

[friend of animals]

What heresy. And without facts, only speculation at the level of money at the entrance. “How could they,” “how could they,” “but it can’t be.”

The phrase “How could semi-wild shepherds (even warlike ones) crush such developed powers...” is especially surprising.

The author should take an interest in the invasions of barbarians and nomads that have occurred since time immemorial, otherwise he clearly has a gap in knowledge.

[Bort radist]

Sharp 180-degree turns are always stressful. Especially in history. For the average person and sensations it will do. Offhand, I can sow some doubts. There was a discovery against the background of which the Mongol-Tatars (or someone else) could accomplish great conquests. Invention of stirrups. Allowed for targeted shooting at speed while standing in stirrups and cushioning with knees. From birth the child lived in the saddle. They ate and slept and after several generations a community of man and horse was formed, a kind of Centaur. Mutual understanding was at the level of intuition. These combinations provided a tangible advantage in battle. About genes. Yes, there are dominant and recessive. Brown eye color is dominant. It is true that a person with brown eyes can have two brown genes. And the possible option is one gene for blue eyes, the second for brown eyes. Simply put, such a man can have children with blue eyes from a blue-eyed woman. That is, it is possible to “dissolve” dominant traits. Biology.

[Warrior2015]

Alexander, your article seems to be okay, otherwise it’s just terrible... Maybe stop writing nonsense about the Mongols?

crush the rich Volga Bulgaria and the Russian principalities and almost capture Europe, easily scattering the troops of the Hungarians, Poles and German knights. And this is after heavy battles with the Rus, Alans, Polovtsians and Bulgars!

The Alans and Polovtsians were defeated by only one corps. Europe was not captured at all, despite a number of victories, there were also defeats. The wealth of Volga Bulgaria is compared with whom, with the surrounding forest tribes? and if you compare it with Venice?

Quote: Sirocco

It was not for nothing that the Library of Alexandria was burned,

Excuse me, which of the 5 times it was burned do you mean?

Quote: Sveles

what is the WEST with its Catholic-Protestant, merchant culture and its claims to “Roman” origin

Actually, study the economic history of the formation of the state of Genghis Khan and you will understand that it was on the MERCHANTS, their protection and prosperity that the Mongolian economy was built. Herding sheep is just grazing sheep.

[Seal]

Actually, study the economic history of the formation of the state of Genghis Khan

Can I be curious? On the basis of what documents did you study the economic history of the formation of the “state of Genghis Khan”?

Excuse me, but exactly which of the thousands of various “Genghis Khans” do you have in mind?
And I added a plus for you for the “library”

[Will]

Genghis Khan's real name was Timchak, he was the ruler of Siberian Rus', the remnants of which were finished off by Peter 1 and the Rarog falcon was depicted on his banner, and only Russian princes could depict a falcon on the banner then. The so-called Batu in Rus' was affectionately called Batya, and Christians gave him the name godless king Batyga. Out of two hundred Russian cities, he burned 12 or 14, I don’t remember exactly, but historians are silent about the fact that in these cities there were princes proteges of the Vatican who converted to Catholicism, some later fled to Europe. He marched through Vedic cities and people greeted him as a liberator from Christianization, because even historians do not deny that after Batu, the civil religious war stopped in Rus'. He sent his son Sartak to Alexander Nevsky (further proof that Spartak was a Rusich by blood) with 10 selected warriors on horses, whose bellies were even encased in armor and they were armed with sorcerer swords that cut the knights in half, by the way, the Japanese licked off the uniforms of these swords, but they could not achieve quality, these swords were reforged about 000 times and they cut off hair on the water, and he made Alexander Nevsky his named son and did not go to Novgorod, because they agreed to make Alexander reign. Well, then he destroyed all the knightly troops of the Vatican, which were supposed to fall on Rus'. In the Battle of Liegnitz, Dad destroyed the entire army of the Pope and 6 bags of the severed right ears of only noble knights were thrown at his feet, and it is difficult to say how many ordinary soldiers were killed, but most likely several hundred thousand, and the Pope fled to France. But he was prevented from finishing off the Vatican and putting an end to Christianity by the news that the fifth column had killed his father and he had to urgently return back. And it is correct to call that Great Siberian Empire Tar - Aria and the word Tatars was formed from the name Tartaria or distant space, remember the expression to fall into tartars.
Recently, Alisher Usmanov bought ancient maps of Tar - Aria and made an exhibition in Moscow.

[Chisayna]

Well, you and “ver” are from the same ward. But what should you do? Those who are not violent can be released.

[starshina wmf]

If you wrote seriously, then you need to go to the hospital just in case. But if you wrote ironically, then it’s funny.

[Djozz]

I have a question, how many warriors were in the Horde that attacked Rus'? From your answers, I will have the following questions, thank you!

[Oprychnik]

I read the comments. I'm pleased.))) But... You can't say better than Mikhail Evgrafovich.)))
“If the ancient Hellenes and Romans were allowed to sing praises to their godless leaders and to hand down their vile deeds to posterity for edification, will we, Christians, who received light from Byzantium, turn out to be less worthy and grateful in this case? Will there really be glorious Nero in every country? , and Caligulas, shining with valor, and only we won’t find such in our own country? It’s ridiculous and absurd to even imagine such awkwardness, let alone preach it out loud, as some freedom lovers do, who believe their thoughts are free because they are in their heads , like flies without shelter, they fly here and there freely.
Not only the country, but also every city, and even every small city - and it has its own Achilles, shining with valor and appointed by the authorities, and cannot not have it. Look at the first puddle - and in it you will find a reptile that surpasses and obscures all other reptiles in its wickedness. Look at the tree - and there you will see one branch that is larger and stronger than others, and, consequently, the most valiant. Finally, look at your own person - and there, first of all, you will meet the head, and then you will not leave the belly and other parts without a sign. What, in your opinion, is more valiant: is your head, although stuffed with a light stuffing, but behind all that grief rushing, or your belly, which strives downwards, and is only suitable for making... Oh, your truly frivolous freethinking!"

[WHITE CAT]

“Is there life on Mars? Is there life on Mars? Science doesn’t know for sure.” What we are arguing were the Mongols from Mongolia or not, only Ukraine knows for sure. It seems like a lawsuit was brought against Mongolia. They want a lot of money as usual. But seriously, all this is fortune telling based on... who likes what more. Even in the history of the 20th century, we cannot figure it out in the presence of a gigantic volume of documents of all kinds. And you were carried back to the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries.

[maximon2005]

Unpredictable Russian history...

[Kenneth]

Yu.D. Petukhov is a science fiction writer and, according to Strugatsky, a considerable graphomaniac. Considering his historical findings is like taking seriously the historical delights of the detective writer Bushkov.

[bnk204]

The words “Horde”, familiar from historical novels, are the Russian word Rod, Rada (Golden Horde - Golden Rod, i.e. royal, of divine origin); "tumen" - Russian word for "darkness" (10000); “khan-kagan”, the Russian word “kohan, kohany” - beloved, respected, this word has been known since the times of Ancient Rus', this is how the first Rurikovichs were sometimes called (for example, Kagan Vladimir). The word “Bytyy” is “father”, a respectful name for the leader, which is how the president is still called in Belarus.

This requires careful research by learned linguists, for example: the Turkic word “kara” is translated into Russian as “black”. Next: kara - chara - enchanting - black. (Cossack is a Cossack, but not a Cossack)

[andrew42]

Despite the odiousness and pathos of many of Petukhov’s sayings (past and present), on the whole I agree with him. At that historical stage, the so-called “Mongol-Tatar invasion” can be characterized as a “Vedic reaction” after the harsh Christianization of the Eastern Slavic lands. Everything looks logical: during the time of Svyatoslav Igorevich, the unity of the Slavic lands was restored, the creation of a powerful superpower was planned on the basis of common Vedic traditions, related languages ​​and complementary value systems of all tribes of the East European Plain, and then the Balkans with Moravia / Bohemia (I dare to remind , that even later, in their youth, Vladimir Monomakh and Oleg Svyatoslavich Chernigovsky, as if nothing had happened, went with troops to Bohemia, participating in the Polish-Czech civil strife, that is, the memory of unity was still there, and not small). The process of creating a Slavic superpower was broken by the Constantinople emissaries who brought Vladimir the “Red Face” to power - through fratricide, the use of mercenaries, when Russian blood had not yet been absorbed into the Bulgarian land of Preslava and Dorostol. After this, the general Christianization of the Russian lands began, somewhere more or less bloodless, in many areas through the brutal actions of the squads of the proliferating princes of the house of Rurik, who adopted Christianity. This is where the “Polovtsian question” arises. Even according to Karamzin, white threads creep out. The Polovtsy first of all “go” to the borders of Zalesskaya Rus, and Vsevolod Yaroslavich very successfully “negotiates” with them. At the same time, the Polovtsians, without hesitation, attack the possessions of Izyaslav Yaroslavich, the Kyiv land - yes, that same Izyaslav whom the Kievans drove out twice and who ran around “Europe” asking for papal or German troops, ready to accept the title of Catholic king. According to Karamzin, the Polovtsian khans are “fearful” of attacking the Chernigov land, since Svyatoslav Yaroslavich, later the Grand Duke and head of the “Russian party” from a religious point of view, he brought them to their senses in a couple of clashes (this is understandable, those who want to plunder can be found in any army, - put in place). His son, Oleg Svyatoslavich, was the best friend of the Polovtsians, who in every possible way supported the Chernigov land against the expansion of the “Monomakhovichs” from Kyiv. The creators of the new center of Rus' in Zalesye - Yuri Dolgoruky, his son Andrei Bogolyubsky - one is the husband of a Polovtsian woman, the second, respectively, is the son of Yuri’s Polovtsian wife. Thus, there is no particular need to look for the source of the “Tatar-Mongols” - this is the same Polovtsian steppe in which the cities stood (according to Karamzin, the same Vladimir Monomakh ravaged the “cities” (“”) during his campaigns for the Donets). The “invasion of the Mongols” for many centuries cemented dual faith in Rus', that is, the coexistence of the faithful Christian church and “pagan” (forgive the mocking term, but it’s clearer) traditions, more precisely the Vedic tradition. That is why bonfires were not lit in Rus', and it did not come to the Inquisition.

[Seraphimamur]

Article plus. Logically, the “Tatar-Mongol” invasion does not work.

[Captain45]

I gave the article a minus because upon careful reading I discovered a bunch of inconsistencies and contradictions. A few years ago I had a chance to read A. Bushkov, I don’t remember exactly, it seems “Rus' - history, myths, legends”, he laid out the theory of TMI more clearly, more convincingly that - Li. And, as was rightly noted in the commentary above, yesterday Samsonov argued that TMI existed, but today it no longer exists. It evaporated overnight. Even Zadornov did not hear this.

[Letterksi]

Recently I watched the film "Mikhailo Lomonosov" 1986. There, Lomonosov criticizes the “father of Russian history”, the German Miller, well. Our history, just like the history of Europe, was not written by whom and for what purposes. The same Miller redid the dates and made changes to Tatishchev’s history after his death. Karamzin, who wrote the History of the Russian State, clearly wrote it from Miller to suit the needs of the Romanovs.

Right now they are rapidly writing their stories for countries such as Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, etc. You have to build your statehood on the basis of something and justify your existence with something. Moreover, the task is to disassociate ourselves from the history of Russia as much as possible, and to look presentable and independent. They are trying to “climb” further into the centuries, preferably beyond the aisles of Russian history. For example, celebrating the millennium of Kyrgyz Manas, the two thousandth anniversary of Kazakh statehood, etc. Are you smiling? ...but in vain!

In the Moscow Armory, ancient Russian helmets and shields have Arabic script. Could this be? ...and this is a fact!

Look what the Greeks, Bulgarians and Spaniards look like after the Turks walked along the European shores of the Mediterranean Sea? And see what you look like when you look in the mirror? Has anyone captured your great-great-grandmothers? Mine are gone! )))

I think that nowadays there are much more mixed marriages than ever before. There are now many more people who are crazy (not from the word insanity, but from the word crossbreed) than ever before. Such marriages have already become the norm in the CIS countries

The whole story is falsified. We don’t really know anything about the true history of ours and our neighbors.

I would like to see the materials the author refers to

[Talgat 148]

550 years of the Kazakh Khanate were celebrated in Kazakhstan!!! And not the two thousandth anniversary!!! It’s vile of you to write slander against the people!!

[Letterksi]

The error does not change the essence. A counterfeit remains a counterfeit.

Before putting three exclamations. sign and accuse of meanness, understand between the concepts of “people”, “history” and “state”

[Talgat 148]

For people like you, everything in Kazakhstan is fake, there is no history, no people, no state! There is nothing good at all! But you still live here!

[Letterksi]

Why didn’t you add your favorite saying “Suitcase - station - Russia” here?

“Everyone is talking about what, but a hungry person is always talking about food,” - This is a proverb about you. All conversations come down to only one thing: “Why do you still continue to live here?”

I will answer: “I definitely won’t ask you where I should live.”

[Talgat 148]

I won't say that. You're just waiting for it. I won’t give in to your idiotic provocations. You are just a rotten radish!!! Don't bother answering.

[Letterksi]

Why did you change the checkbox? Have you moved yet? Did you mix up the proxy server? Or are you now caring for Estonia?

[Talgat 148]

Fuck knows why.. but you’ll never get it! !!! !!!

[Talgat 148]

Another Kazakh flag!!! We must live the life of the people, Father!

[ovod84]

The ancient Russians dug the Dnieper, in general this is what we can say about this article, we can add the ships and speeches of Zadornov. Let's not be like the ancient Ukrainians.

[but still]

Were the Mongols - were they not - were they not Mongols, or were they?

Let's see what archaeologists tell us - ZOLOTAREVSKY MASSACRE near the Sura River in the Penza region - There are more than a thousand arrowheads alone! The richest archaeological source!

“To make the scale of the battle more clear to you,” says Gennady Belorybkin, “I will give you the following example. This territory at the beginning of the XNUMXth century was part of Volga-Kama Bulgaria. So, throughout Volga Bulgaria there are, perhaps, several hundred arrowheads, "found over many years of archaeological research. And here in one place there are more than a thousand of them! At the site of the massacre we also discovered a huge number of fragments of sabers - the main weapon of that time. Even in all of Ancient Rus', such a number of parts of saber weapons probably would not be found."

http://www.itogi.ru/archive/2003/45/90027.html

[kalibr]

An article about Zolotarevka has already been written and will be published next week. These words of Belorybkin are also there. Moreover, the arrowheads are very clearly typologized based on finds in Mongolian burials, which M.V. Gorelik wrote about in detail at one time.

[but still]

Great! We are waiting for the article

[Pomeranian]

Has spring come? Anyway.
I would like to hear from the author of this article (left without rating, the work must be respected) or those who support him answers to the following questions:
1.What kind of developed state did the Huns or Avars have?
2. Who is more knowledgeable in military matters: the Don Cossack or the peasant of the Samara province of the 20th century? On the question of the identity of military training of the population of north-eastern Rus' and the Mongol-Tatars.
3. Based on the images: could an artist of the 16th century know reliably what they were wearing, what the helmets, weapons and equipment of the warriors of the 13th century looked like?
4. The Polovtsy and Horde disappeared into the “related” people. How has this been proven, other than the example of the Negroid gene?
5. Did the West stop constantly encroaching on weak, defenseless Rus' thanks to the joint actions of Alexander and Batu? Are you seriously?

[KaPToC]

Quote: Pomoryanin

Who is more knowledgeable in military affairs: Don Cossack

Where is the Don Cossack, and where is the Mongolian shepherd?

[Pomeranian]

Quote: KaPToC

Where is the Don Cossack, and where is the Mongolian shepherd?

Where is the 13th century and where is the 20th?
Let me explain it to you in a more understandable language. The most labor-intensive farming activity is farming. And the most expensive thing is grain farming. Therefore, a nomadic herder has much more time to improve his combat skills than a peasant farmer living in a risky farming zone. Do you understand my point now?

[KaPToC]

The life of a cattle breeder is VERY hard, he does not have time to improve his fighting skills, and if he goes on a campaign, his family will die of hunger.
Although farming is more expensive than cattle breeding, it is also more productive. Our entire civilization began with the fact that the farmer had a surplus of labor. All nomadic pastoral cultures that have survived to us survived while being part of agricultural states. During their time as part of the Russian Empire, the Kazakh population grew one hundred times.

[Rorabek]

Everyone is sure that Genghis Khan’s army did not know defeat in Europe. But that's not true. They beat her, not just anywhere, but on the Volga.
History textbooks for schools diligently keep silent about this fact, works of art bypass. Fortunately, special literature is forced to briefly cover it. For example, "History of the TASSR" from 1973 describes it in as many as two sentences. "In the late autumn of 1223 the Bulgars came out to meet the Mongols, set up ambushes in several places, and when the Mongols ambushed them, the Bulgars surrounded them from all sides and killed almost all of them. Only a few, having escaped ... ... ... reached the headquarters of Genghis Khan ... ... .... "
And all about that. No one even notices this information. Although it - this victory of the Bulgarians - was of great importance for the fate not only of the peoples of modern Russia, but of the whole of Europe.
In the collection of Bulgarian chronicles "Djagfar Tarihi" ("History of Djagfar"), this battle is called "The Battle of Sheep" and dates back to September 1223. Here is how it was. After the Battle of Kalka and the capture of Kiev, the troops of Genghis Khan went to the Volga Bulgaria. Having learned about this, the Bulgarians began to prepare for the meeting. They built special fortifications near the Zhigulevsky mountains, lured the enemy there and completely defeated him. Only a few escaped. A huge number of Mongol-Tatars were taken prisoner. "Jagfar Tarihi" names the number 4 thousand. The Bulgarians did not kill them or even sold them into slavery. They traded them for rams. On the shameful condition for Chinggis Khan: one soldier - for one ram. Apparently this mockery could not bear the soul of the "shaker of the universe": three years later, Chinggis Khan died.
Thirteen years after that, the Tatar-Mongols stormed the Volga Bulgaria. There are known large campaigns in 1229,1232, 1235 and 1236, but each time they were beaten and retreated. And only in XNUMX, having gathered innumerable hordes, they managed to overcome it and break through the Volga to the West, to the Russian lands. What people, what state of Europe held back the onslaught of the Tatar-Mongol troops for at least one year? "

[but still]

Yes, the history of the Bulgars and Bulgars for centuries is deliberately not only kept silent, it is demeaned or attributed to other peoples (since in the Byzantine, Arab, and Persian chronicles the Bulgars/Bulgars are mentioned and it is impossible to hide their glorious past). Yes, the Volga Bulgars heroically held back the Mongols, just as earlier the Danube Bulgars saved the world from the Arab invasion - in 718 g at ​​the walls of Constantinople TERVELruler Danube Bulgaria (son of Asparukh), coming to the aid of Byzantium, defeated the Arab troops. After this event, TERVEL was canonized as a saint with the name Trivelius Teoktist.

[kalibr]

I don’t know how it is kept silent: together with David Nicol, I published in England in 2013 the book “Armies of the Volgar Bulgars & Khanate of Kazan 9th-16th cent/ Osprey MAA-491/ He dug for his part, I dug for mine, starting from the museum in Kazan and Bulgar and ending with Mari, Yelabuga... oh, I wrote everywhere and from where I got materials. Probably all the museums in the region were surveyed for photographs of artifacts. So the West has a good idea of ​​what it was and how. Maybe they will translate it here too. We like to translate books by “Western” authors!

[but still]

I looked online and read, although so far only the first page - reading in English is tiring when you're not used to it...

[yver]

I AM CHELDON. My ancestors always lived in the Shadrinsky district of the Kurgan region even before Ermak and his people arrived there. Under Soviet rule and naturally before that, there were Cheldonian and Russian villages. But the Cheldons are the same Russians, but they have inhabited the east of our country since time immemorial. There is practically no written information about the Cheldons, and I learned about my origin from my father, he from his ancestors, and according to the passport they are all Russian. We have always known that the Cheldons are a separate people in Russian civilization, who have now lost their identity, mixed with the newcomer Russians and become united. But you don’t want to lose your roots, you need to know where YOU come from. By the way, the Cheldons, at least of our kind, used two calendars almost before the Great Patriotic War, a modern one and one from the creation of the world in the starry temple. The official history regarding the Horde invasion, the development of the east of our country and the “depth” of our origins has always been at odds with the knowledge about my family. Judging by the accounts left by my ancestors, our history is more than 7,5 thousand years old and we have always been the masters of the land on which we live to this day! Only now, when new artifacts begin to appear, at least for me, knowledge about our ancestors organically overlaps with history about which we still know very little.

[Cossack Ermak]

Get a genetic test. You just have to have unique genes. No nation can boast of living in one place for 7500 years.

[yver]

You apparently don’t know that before Peter I in Russia there was a different calendar and now the year is 7524 from S.M.Z.H. And the Russian people have always lived on their land. I can do as many tests as you want, come and get it.

[kumaxa]

and before Peter’s reforms of the church, chronology in Rus' was carried out from the creation of the world and not from the birth of Christ. This is true. I even remember talking about this in history class at school. Believing grandmothers also mentioned this chronology. But it was presented as religious obscurantism. According to scientists, civilization itself is no more than 4-5 thousand years old.

[Rivares]

Quote: yver

By the way, the Cheldons, at least of our kind, almost before the Great Patriotic War used two calendars, modern and from the creation of the world in the star temple

By the way, does the dating coincide with the chronicles from Adam or from the creation of the world (Christian monks easily confused these concepts in the chronicles)?

[Pomeranian]

What an interesting and informative debate!
I would like to hear from the authors of the article and their supporters answers to the following questions that arise when reading the second part.
1. What developed state did the Huns or Avars have?
2. Who was better in military terms in the example of the 20th century: a Cossack or a peasant from the Ryazan province and a semi-professional nomadic soldier or a smerd from the Ryazan principality?
3. How could an artist of the 15th century know what the enemy warriors of the 13th century were wearing, what kind of weapons and equipment they had?
4. Did the Polovtsians and Horde dissolve into related peoples? Why in the Russians, and not in the Crimean Tatars and other nomads of the Wild Field?
5. The evil West slept and saw how to offend the innocent lamb-Rus, who only knew how to fight them off, and the Russians never went on campaigns to the West and never recaptured lands? Are you serious?
6. What kind of joint actions could there be between the troops of the Mongols and Alexander Yaroslavich against Europe, if there were over a hundred states in it that were in permanent war with each other?

[Serge]

1. Didn’t the Uhunns and Avars have a state? People were just wandering around foreign lands and that’s all?
2.Who was better in military terms, the mustacheless boys from Podolsk cadets with Molotov cocktails or Guderian’s tank formations?
3. And where did the German “historian” in the service of the Russian Empress know about the yoke, the Varangian theory of Russian statehood?
4. And who says that these peoples dissolved only in the Slavs? Some are Slavic, some are Turkic, what does that change?
5. and evil Rus' tried to impose its faith on at least someone in the west or east, as the Latins did? Earth after earth, and faith, respected, always came first for the Russians.
6. Here they are, yes it was in the order of things. The Russians fought in other armies constantly, just as the Crimean Tatars subsequently united with the Russians, then with the Poles, then with the Turks... damn, one of the conditions when the Russian prince received the label for the great reign was the participation of the Russians in joint campaigns and The fragmentation of Europe has nothing to do with it.

[Pomeranian]

Quote: SergiK

The fragmentation of Europe has nothing to do with it.

If these are the answers to my questions, then, sorry, I didn’t understand anything.
But, as a polite person, I will answer you.
1. I ask the author of the article about this: what kind of state did the Huns or Avars have if he claims that without a strong centralized state it is impossible to wage a victorious war of conquest. Neither he nor you answered me.
2.Equal. Both those and others are professional military men.
3. I don’t understand what we’re talking about. About Karamzin, I guess?
4. Changes a lot.
5. So, trips to the east and the baptism of “wild tribes”, for example, Zakamya, is that a trifle? And the West did not impose its faith on us, not much time passed after the schism of the church and there were a lot of different heresies, they had to be dealt with. The West, first of all, fought with pagans and non-Christians. And the Russians somehow even went on a Crusade once.
6. You, most respected one, do not confuse the eras. And what did the appanage military prince of a distant state mean to Batu Khan?

[Seal]

1. What developed state did the Huns or Avars have?
At this stage of the development of science, no one can know about this. Maybe then, after many years, science will be able to remove sound information from any medium (from granite, from basalt, or even from outer space) about what once happened on Earth. In the meantime, even the assumption of this is already in the realm of fantasy.
2. Who was better in military terms in the example of the 20th century: a Cossack or a peasant from the Ryazan province and a semi-professional nomadic soldier or a smerd from the Ryazan principality?
Also a stupid question. Of course, first of all I would like to answer that, based on the example of the 20th century, the Cossack was better in military terms, and not the peasant of the Ryazan province. But .. even if we imagine that there were no firearms, then everything still turns out not so clear. The Cossack has the skills of horse riding, wielding a pike and chopping with a saber. And the peasant has experience in using a spear and a scythe. And what a scythe is in the hands of a peasant was well demonstrated by Polish and Lithuanian peasant cosigners during the uprising in Poland of 1863-1864. And if a peasant goes after a bear in the summer with a spear, and in the winter he also sets a snare and hits a squirrel, then I personally cannot vouch for the Cossack’s victory in a fight with a peasant.
A peasant from Ryazan and other provinces, who had completed the course as a young soldier in the tsarist army, always beat semi-professional nomadic soldiers.
3. How could an artist of the 15th century know what the enemy warriors of the 13th century were wearing, what kind of weapons and equipment they had?
Out of nowhere. Yes, in fact, with battle painters in the 15th century, you know, it wasn’t very good.

4. Did the Polovtsians and Horde dissolve into related peoples? Why in the Russians, and not in the Crimean Tatars and other nomads of the Wild Field?

What are “other nomads of the Wild Field”? In addition to the Crimean Tatars and the near-Crimean Tatar hordes, only Nogais, and then Kalmyks, roamed there. And the Polovtsy could have migrated to Bulgaria or the Kuban.

5. The evil West slept and saw how to offend the innocent lamb-Rus, who only knew how to fight them off, and the Russians never went on campaigns to the West and never recaptured lands? Are you serious?

Why was there any need to “go” somewhere when before, almost everything up to and including the Elbe was Slavic. And in some places even to the Rhine.

6. What kind of joint actions could there be between the troops of the Mongols and Alexander Yaroslavich against Europe, if there were over a hundred states in it that were in permanent war with each other?

Since the Mongols are a myth, there could be no campaigns.

[qwert]

Quote: Cap.Morgan

I read somewhere that in the 18-19 centuries in the Ottoman Empire a variant of the Old Persian language was adopted. So who was the winner? This does not mean anything.
In Russia, for a century all the nobility spoke in French. For example.

Cool. I didn't think about it. It turns out that the French conquered Russia. And the French nobility ruled it)))))

[kumaxa]

her! High society is ruled by kitsch! https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsch, that's who will be interested. That's how they lived in the 18th-19th centuries, that's how they live now.

[qwert]

Quote: Rorabek

For example, “History of the TASSR” from 1973 describes it in just two sentences. “In the late autumn of 1223, the Bulgars came out to meet the Mongols, set up ambushes in several places, and when the Mongols passed the ambushes, the Bulgars surrounded them on all sides and killed almost everyone. Only a few, having escaped………reached the headquarters of Genghis Khan………. "

The main thing is not to confuse Tatars and Bulgars. These are different peoples. And even in the 1911 census, the population of Kazan was divided equally between Bulgars and Tatars (not counting other nationalities). And only during the first census, due to the fact that there were many Tatars in the All-Russian Central Executive Committee and other leading Bolshevik bodies, all the Bulgars were recorded as Tatars. And since then, the Tatars have been proud of the merits of another people, who even outwardly differed from them.
I have nothing against the Tatars, I just feel bad for the Bulgars

[Rorabek]

I dare to say that the Bulgars are called TATARs... so there are no Tatars... what is there to be proud of... the inhabitants of Tatarstan have always been different from the inhabitants of Mongolia and there is no connection... it’s just that someone once usurped and named the whole people with a different “name”...yes, supposedly Genghis Khan himself slaughtered the Tatar (Mongolian) tribe for the death of his father when he was still a boy

[Oprychnik]

The other day, on the Internet, I came across this map with a telling caption: “Which country did they screw up...”)))

[Rorabek]

So the Mongols!
It would seem that they live in yurts, there is no written language, no technology, or even proper statehood. So, a set of tribes that squabble with each other over women, sheep and other petty reasons. And here you go! In just a hundred years, from a small, unknown tribe, they turn into the greatest empire, equal in size only to the British Empire of the 19th century! How could this happen?

---------------------- ----------------------
In the minds of the average person, the Mongols are countless millions of poorly armed, rotten-toothed, cross-eyed hobbits on small horses, who almost slaughter everyone indiscriminately. However, reality, as often happens, was not quite like that, if, of course, not at all like that.
Let's start with the fact that in the 12th century there were about 40 thousand ethnic Mongols themselves with children and women. And there are even fewer warriors. And even then, if we consider the Merkits and Keraits and other tribesmen of the ethnonym “Mongols” to be Mongols. You won’t fight head-on with such an army for a long time, even if you were three times rich, but the million-strong Chinese army will beat you down once or twice. So what did the Mongols come up with so uniquely in the 13th century that they conquered China and Central Asia and the Caucasus and Rus' and India?
Oddly enough, the tactics of the Mongols are now being quite successfully repeated by the Americans in Iraq/Afghanistan. The tactics are: “strike from afar, then clear out those who remain.”
Light horsemen shoot from afar with bows, disrupting and mowing down dense ranks of opponents, and make a bunch of feints (false retreats, ambushes, stretching the formation in different directions). At the same time, due to the overwhelming skill of archery and the range of the bows, they themselves stay behind the enemy’s striking zone. The tactics of alternating “waves” forced the enemy to be on the defensive for a long time and melt away in numbers. Each Mongol had several clockwork horses. One of them was usually intended for transporting spare arrows/bows and was located in the rear. The rider, who had shot all 30–40 arrows from the quiver, returned to the back rows to replenish his supply of arrows and take a break from physical exertion. A few minutes later he returned with another batch of arrows and again fired them at his opponents. There could be a lot of such waves, the shelling could last for hours.
When the wounded/shot enemies, who, no matter how hard they tried, could not catch up with the Mongols (and if they tried, they died even faster), scattered the formation and began to scramble, the heavy armored Mongol cavalry entered the battle and with a powerful blow smashed even those centers of resistance that remained on battlefield.

[Rorabek]

As a result, the losses of the Mongols and their opponents usually varied significantly. It is known that near Kermanshah the Mongols killed about 20 enemy soldiers, losing about a hundred of their own (the data can be considered very accurate, since both the Arabs and the Chinese give the same numbers). And a similar result was almost everywhere.

Another benefit from such victories was the enormous experience that the Mongol soldiers gained by winning battles every now and then, rather than dying after the first or second battle. “Expa” among the soldiers was accumulated by the wagonload, and “left-handedness” in the Mongolian environment was a very common occurrence. The matter was “on the conveyor belt.” Over the years, the Mongols acquired more and more skills and techniques, accumulated them, cleverly adopting armored cavalry in Parthia, battering guns in China, and including a bunch of foreign specialists in their army.

Well, another very important moment for the victories of the Mongols. They had a perfectly established communication system. If the same Russian princes, “beating like lions,” often did not know what was happening on the neighboring flank, then the Mongol noyons usually steered the battle from afar, sending out dozens of messengers, raising special flags, and giving sound signals. And their army was controlled literally “at the tips of our fingers.”
Also, the excellent cavalry of the Mongols, the presence of several swing horses and the absolute unpretentiousness in the campaign made it possible for the Mongol to make transitions dizzying in speed. 1000 kilometers per week was the usual pace (the European army usually traveled 150-200 kilometers per week), and with some dexterity, advanced units could cover up to 200-250 kilometers per day. Thus, a lot of enemy cities were taken by surprise, and their foot troops disastrously did not have time.

Possessing a very small ethnic number, the Mongols learned to “roll before them” the warriors of the conquered countries, throwing them without pity into the most intense parts of the battle, while themselves almost always remaining without casualties. It was the conquered Tatars who mainly terrified Rus'. Ethnic Mongols only provided leadership and taught tactics and strategy, rarely participating in battles themselves.

Last thing. The Mongols very often won thanks to intelligence rather than strength. For example, it is known that the huge army of the Hungarian king began to scramble after specially trained Mongol horsemen rushed in battle around their ranks and shouted in Hungarian “Save yourself! Run! Order to retreat!” By the way, many cities often opened their gates, frightened by stories about the invincibility of the Mongols, thanks to which they almost always remained untouched, paying only tithes.

[Rorabek]

While the rank-and-file soldiers were shooting, the commanders and heavy cavalry stayed behind
As a result, half of the world was conquered, many Asian dynasties traced their ancestry back to the Mongols, and in general it was all money, women and other blackjacks. However, the Mongols did not have time to multiply greatly in 100 years and almost everywhere found themselves dissolved among the conquered peoples. In Mongolia itself there is still the cult of Genghis and the Middle Ages. Because for them, the most wonderful times are in the past, which means they need to live the way they lived then.

[kumaxa]

and you read Mongolian mythology! I’m not sure that with such reverence they would rush to conquer! in the 20s, when UNGERN came to them to replenish the troops to fight the Reds, this myth was invented. and no repressions or convictions of this count forced the Mongols to rise up to fight the Reds. But they believed the Reds. CHOIBOLSAN is their national hero and not Genghis Khan, who is far from them!

[but still]

Here is another version:

[but still]

Here’s another interesting thing about the Bulgarian warriors - especially about SKULL TREPANATION, ARTIFICIAL ELONGATION OF THE SKULL (such operations were performed by the Thracians, the Scythians, and, it turns out, the medieval Bulgarians!

Lgars)

[but still]

And Svyatoslav wore a forelock according to Bulgarian tradition

[but still]

Someone gave me a minus... So Svyatoslav didn’t wear a forelock? This is how he is depicted on monuments. According to the ancient description. Or is wearing forelocks not an ancient Bulgarian tradition of the nobility? Yes, Ukrainian Cossacks also wore forelocks, just as earlier Bulgarian noble warriors had forelocks So Svyatoslav has a forelock...

[Warrior2015]

Quote: gnv731

Where did this iron come from? If in Rus' about 300 years ago there were no iron shovels and plows, and the land was cultivated with wooden ones, since there was little iron and it was expensive.

Yeah, there's just a problem - the plow rakes have always been iron and they are found archaeologically.

Quote: Rorabek

Apparently the soul of the “shaker of the universe” could not bear this mockery: three years later Genghis Khan died.

Yeah, but the consequences of the injury just passed by. And he died before the invasion of Rus', as they correctly said.

[Talgat 148]

It's all WE!!! Kazakhs!!! (Cossacks)!!!

[Talgat 148]

Ask Azamat from Kamyzyak! ))))) he knows for sure! )))

[Inco]

I was looking at old maps online. so for some reason “Mogol” and “Mongol” are two different territories.

[Balagan]

More nonsense on historical topics.

Mongolian weapons were no different from Russian ones. If the author had not been lazy and looked through the works of Mongolian medievalists, he would have found many differences. On the other hand, we can just as well say that at the end of the twentieth century. African weapons were no different from Soviet-Russian ones. And what? Will we consider Africa Russia?
It has long been known that the system of organization of the Mongol army is not Mongolian - they copied it from the Jurchens.

About biology. There is one ethnic group that just refutes the stated thesis about the dominance of genes. I'm talking about the Turks - Yakuts, Azerbaijanis and Turks - related peoples, like Russians, Little Russians and Belarusians. And what - everyone has an Asian type of face?

There were no anthropological differences between the Mongols and Russians. Why then are there different skeletons in the graves? Are they transformed after death? Another aspect is whether there were Caucasians in the Mongol army? Well, one might just as well be surprised that in Napoleon’s army that attacked Russia there were not only Frenchmen, or that the army that invaded the USSR in 1941 consisted not only of Germans.

Oh, great linguistics! In fact, the Mongols dragged four Jurchen words into the Russian language, which we still use today, and a bunch of our own. And with such linguistic interpretations, you can take any language of this planet and dig up a bunch of Russian words there.

The Mongols learned about Temujin from the Europeans (this is a man who worked for them since 1206 as the next elected Genghis Khan, but whose position is often used today as a name). In Mongolia, both he and a number of his descendants, who left several cities, were always remembered. Some of them are being actively explored today, for example the city of Yesungu.
However, the theme of ancient Mongolian cities, as I understood from the text, is as surprising for the author as the program shown the other day (I don’t remember which channel, I just clicked during the commercial), where the Frenchman was wildly surprised by traffic jams in Moscow. Like, where did these barbarians get their cars? Well, Putin and other bosses have it, but how can these ten cars create kilometer-long traffic jams throughout the entire city?..
There is an interesting city in Mongolia, Chintolgoy-Balgas, although this was almost 300 years before Genghis Khan, so London and Paris in the same XNUMXth century looked like provincial villages against its background. Well, this is so, between the lines, as an educational program for the author.

Mongol-Tatars is an artificial term, like the Byzantines. If the author were attentive, he would dance at the word “mengu”. Google to the rescue.

About gods - even today, some Russians in Siberia continue to revere the gods that their ancestors worshiped in the Bronze Age. It's a matter of conscience, however. Do not touch the faith of your subjects not in the XNUMXth century. came up with it.

Mixing Tataria and Tartaria is as adequate as a table and a chair, whatever - one letter does not change the meaning. Almost like that joke when an old professor came to work with a black eye. As I was passing, I heard a demobilized paratrooper talking to his friends and saying: “there was one dick in my company,” to which the professor corrected him: “not in the company, but in the mouth, young man.”

Well, if it is so fashionable to sin against our chronicles, then you can look through “Yuan shi” and “Koryo sa”, there is also a lot about the Mongols. And if the author is not too lazy to find these modern publications, he will find in them a lot of references to other documents of those times.

[Oprychnik]

“Well, if it’s so fashionable to sin on our chronicles, then you can look through “Yuan shi” and “Koryo sa”, there is also a lot about the Mongols. And if the author is not too lazy to find these modern publications, he will find in them a lot of references to other documents of those times."

Do you naively continue to believe in “reliable” chronicles?))
There's no need to go that far.
"On April 17, 1917, the Belgian newspaper L`Independance belge,
published in London, reported that near
the Belgian city of Koblenz, occupied by the German
army, a processing factory began operating
corpses. The bodies of dead German soldiers arriving there
soldiers were processed into oil for lubrication and
feed for pigs. The message was accompanied by
evidence of boiling corpses. L`Independence belge
referred to the Dutch Leiden, in which,
however, there is no information on this matter
published. On the same day, the English Times and Daily Mirror reprinted
this note, comparing it with information from a reporter from the German publication LokalAnzeiger
that close to the front line he had a chance to feel
the most pleasant smell. When translating the note into English it was done
several errors, which resulted in
horse carcasses turned into corpses, and
glue in quicklime used
for disinfection of corpses. On the next
day talk about further atrocities
The Germans have overwhelmed all of England."

This was less than 100 years ago. Tell me honestly, do you believe this at least a little?
And Homer too? (We’ve already talked about Schliemann here.)
ANY written evidence that is more than 300 years old, rewritten a hundred or a thousand times, and often simply pulled from thin air with grammatical errors, from damaged and mouse-eaten texts, burned in many fires, edited repeatedly in accordance with the current political moment and ruling dynasty.

[Oprychnik]

But the caesura did not miss the reply joke, although there was not a single obscene expression in it...)))

[kalibr]

A newspaper is not a chronicle! Then literate people served GOD and considered lying a sin; they valued the written word (by the way, this is also in the chronicles).

[starshina wmf]

The joke is funny.

[Seal]

There is an interesting city in Mongolia, Chintolgoy-Balgas, although this was almost 300 years before Genghis Khan, so London and Paris in the same XNUMXth century looked like provincial villages against its background. Well, this is so, between the lines, as an educational program for the author.

Well, academic science considers it a city of the “Khitan Liao Empire.” And there the population... is the same as in all of Europe combined.

Well, if it’s so fashionable to sin on our chronicles, then you can look through “Yuan shi” and “Koryo sa”, there’s also a lot about the Mongols

Well, our admiration for foreign countries is simply ineradicable. For some reason, many are sure that abroad the snow is whiter and the air is cleaner and the lard is tastier and the chronicles are more reliable and the bees don’t sting...

[engineer]

Modern Mongols have no relation to the “Mongols” of Genghis Khan and his grandson Batu. This is an archaeological fact. The Great Wall of China runs 600 kilometers from Beijing and 1000 kilometers from modern Mongolia. The Mongols of Genghis Khan were the SCO countries.

[Yereke]

)))) yes, there were no Mongols, but it was also mean for them to admit that instead of the Mongols there were TURKS (the current Tatars-Kazakhs (tribes of Kereits, Merkits..) - Bashkirs-Ozbeks-Gagauz-..) so now they have come up with another lie about VANYA blond Mongolian))). Mongol for this means scribblers, from the word MYN-thousand (Turkic Kazakh) -KOL (hand or army)... and by the way, the eldest son of Zhosha, or in your opinion Jochi, is buried in the current Karaganda region from where Attila came before them...

[Chisayna]

Here in VO, there was an article about Tuva. How Tuva helped the USSR in the Second World War, but that’s not the point. But the fact is that then in 1941-45, there was no good asphalt road on the Usinsky tract as there is now. All carts and herds of cattle the Tuvans drove on their own. There were few cars in Tuva then, none at all. So, from Kyzyl to Abakan there are 400 km of mountain road, the Vesyoly pass alone is worth it. And there were no avalanche galleries at all then. And the Tuvans drove herds of horses and herds of cows on their own. It took them about 10 (ten) days to travel. And all these days they were in saddles, but they were not used to it, they had been on horses almost since birth, natural riders at that time.

[Oprychnik]

A good discussion with a conclusion, just like in this lovely cartoon.

[kalibr]

A good discussion happens when the questioner knows half the answer, and the one who answers refers not to himself, but to documents. For example, was Stalin good according to Samsonov? Good! This means that the newspaper Pravda, which he often edited himself with a blue pencil, is good! Source! And in it, in issue 356 for December 24.12.1941, 2, on page 1941, we read the article by A. Novikov - Alexander Nevsky. Then it became relevant to write about the commanders of the past. And so we read: the author gives excerpts from both our and German chronicles, without indicating their names, but this is a newspaper. And there are many passages, but not a word about the fact that the knights clad in armor drowned in the lake. Not a word! That is, people understood that cinema is cinema, and history is history. Today many people do not understand this and... what kind of discussion can there be with such people? Let them learn their native history at least at the level of “Truth! XNUMX!”

[Oprychnik]

Yes. What kind of discussion can there be with a fanatical follower of Yossi Scaliger, a stunning Red Indisputable Quotation Book, and ready to send those who disagree and do not have the title of Academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences to labor camps for re-education?)))
Well, no need to be arrogant. Your materials are interesting. It’s not without pleasure that I get to know them. But, you must admit, some people, it is clear that those not in your environment, may have a different point of view.

[Loki_2]

2 Author Samsonov Alexander
Mikhail Zadornov log in with your name ;)

[marat023]

When I served in Tyva, I drove horses from a post to an outpost 120 km away without the skills in 12 hours in January

[Dal arya]

It's very strange, of course, to read something...
Once upon a time there lived Russians, they traded with the West, merchants went there, but they did not know at all what was in the East and did not trade with the East.
And then suddenly, out of the blue, an unknown people attacked Rus'... who, by the way, traveled thousands of kilometers to Rus'...
And why didn’t the Mongols conquer the West is the question? They say that Rus' stopped them, but how is it that they conquered Rus', what prevented them from conquering all of Europe?
In general, this entire version with the invasion is stitched with white thread.

A separate topic is Tartaria, Tataria and Kazan.
According to my version, the Russian roots of words are the simplest words themselves, so the root ,, kaz,, is translated as -., value,,.
Goat gives milk
Treasury - collection of wealth
Execute - deprive life of value
Decree is a valuable document
And here the word “Kazan” comes out as the most valuable city for the Russians, because it is located in the East itself, where Tartary is, which the Russians apparently always revered, right up to the oprichnina of Ivan the Terrible, when he gave the kingdom in Moscow to the Tatar, thus recognizing his supremacy, the supremacy of Tartatia and not the Tatar people, of course.

[AID.S]

Once again I am convinced here that history is what everyone believes or wants to believe and how they imagine it. It would be more fun if those commenting on it indicated their levels of education or academic titles on the topic under discussion.

[kalibr]

That would be really interesting!

[Alexander Greene]

The article is an ordinary dummy. According to the author, there was no Tatar-Mongol invasion, there were no burned Russian cities, no burned Kiev with the destroyed Sofia, there was no defense of Kozelsk, Alexander Nevsky did not go to the Horde and was not poisoned there and he died on the way to Novgorod in a small town called Gorodets. The author argues without evidence about the impossibility of the Mongols conquering Rus', even citing Nazi Germany as an example. But he forgets that the Horde absorbed the economic and industrial potential of almost all conquered peoples, including Central Asia and the Caucasus, where weapons skills were very well developed. The author also forgets the example of the destruction of civilized Rome by uncivilized barbarians. The conquest of Rus' by the Tatars occurred in the 13th century, they were freed from it only under Ivan III in the 15th century, and Ivan the Terrible finally defeated the Horde. These are not so distant times, this is not the 800s. the first millennium, when there was no written language in Rus', therefore, much evidence of the existence of the Tatar-Mongol yoke has been preserved.
And the people’s memory still remembers that an uninvited guest is worse than a Tatar.

[KaPToC]

But we’re not saying that an uninvited guest is worse than a Mongolin?

[are valid]

Quote: andj61

And what do we really know about that long, almost 2000 years ago, history of these peoples, their culture, technologies, states, to consider them wild?

[Warrior2015]

Quote: andrew42

in which the cities stood (according to Karamzin, the same Vladimir Monomakh ravaged the “cities” (“”) during his campaigns for the Donets).

The "cities" of the Polovtsians are ordinary "encampments" that were made for a certain period - a ring-shaped structure of yurts, surrounded by a Wagenburg of carts. That's the whole city... But the city is a "fortified settlement"! and our ancestors thought so and called it so in the chronicles.

Quote: LetterKsi

In the Moscow Armory, ancient Russian helmets and shields have Arabic script. Could this be? ...and this is a fact!

Banal import. We had a problem with high-quality iron ore after being pushed back from the Carpathians and before reaching the Ural Mountains - East Slavic blacksmiths were content with “swamp iron” or imported both metal and finished products.

Quote: qwert

Cool. I didn't think about it. It turns out that the French conquered Russia. And the French nobility ruled it)))))

Culturally in the 18th century - without a doubt. BUT ONLY CULTURAL. For example, during the wars with Napoleon, often Russian officers of even low ranks spoke and read French perfectly and read captured French documents without problems, and in order for French officers to translate any captured document it was necessary to look somewhere for a Pole or a Jew, although if only they knew a little Russian.

But our nobility was largely German by blood. And before that, there was a large share of Tatar and, strange as it may seem, Swedish blood. The “Russification” of the Russian aristocracy began actively only in the mid-19th century.

[Hurray]

Lord, Topvar seems to be a solid site, but don’t print these opuses of the “historian” Samsonov anymore. Please don't embarrass yourself. Persian, Georgian and Armenian chronicles are very interesting.

[Seal]

Persian, Georgian and Armenian chronicles are very interesting.

I don’t know about the Persian ones, but there are big questions regarding the Georgian and Armenian ones.
I would advise you to be careful with Armenian historians. According to the information posted on the site of Armenian archivists, the oldest DOCUMENT for archival storage in the Republic of Armenia dates back to 1607 AD. Everything that is considered more ancient is, alas, everything that does not carry any historical information - religious texts, all sorts of gospels, Bibles, a textbook and textbooks.
And further. Specifically in Armenia there is another big problem.
Archivists know her. Millions of written scrolls are stored in world museums (and scrolls, this is precisely the first DOCUMENTS). But all over the world there is not a single scroll in Armenian!
And this problem is recognized by the Armenian archivists themselves. It is very easy to see this. You just type in the GUGL "there are no Armenian manuscripts of the scrolls" and you get bitter complaints from your archivists that: "The Armenians did not find the manuscripts wrapped in the form of scrolls."
However, in the entire writing world, all documents up to the 17th and 18th centuries, that is, up to the invention of postal envelopes, were written on separate sheets of paper, which implies their subsequent wrapping in the form of a scroll and its sealing. Just look at the painting by John Trumbull "The Signing of the US Declaration of Independence", written in 1819 - even in this painting we see documents in the form of scrolls.
Well, Armenia is probably just a "unique" country, which in its "many thousand-year history" managed to do without written DOCUMENTS at all! But with a mass of supposedly ancient "handwritten books". But all of them, as I indicated, do not carry any historical information, since all of them, like a sin, are books of religious content, medical books, textbooks, and so on.
Alas, in real life this does not happen!

[Alekst]

another nonsense

[Seal]

Quote: Pig

They also searched for Troy for a long time...

And did you find exactly what you were looking for? Like a piano in the bushes?