Military Review

The myth of the "Mongol-Tatar" invasion

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810 years ago, in the spring of 1206, at the head of the Onon River, at the kurultai, Temuchin was proclaimed a great khan over all the tribes and received the title "kagan", adopting the name of Chinggis. Scattered and warring "Mongolian" tribes united in a single state.


780 years ago, in the spring of 1236, the "Mongolian" army moved to conquer Eastern Europe. A large army, which was replenished on the way with new and new detachments, reached the Volga in a few months and there united with the forces of "Ulas Juchi." In the late autumn of 1236, the combined “Mongolian” forces attacked Volga Bulgaria. This is the official version. stories "Mongol" empire and the conquests of the "Mongol-Tatars".

Official version

According to the version included in the history textbooks, from all over the vast region of Central Asia, Mongolian feudal princes (noyons) with their retinues gathered on the banks of the Onon river. Here in the spring of 1206, at the congress of representatives of the largest tribes and genera, Temuchin was proclaimed the Great Khan as the supreme ruler of the "Mongols". It was a tough and successful one of the “Mongolian” clans who was able to defeat his rivals in the course of bloody internecine strivings. He took a new name - Genghis Khan, and his clan was declared the oldest of all generations. Previously, independent tribes and clans of the great steppe united into a single state entity.

The union of the tribes into a single state was a progressive phenomenon. The civil wars ended. Prerequisites for the development of the economy and culture have appeared. A new law came into force - Yasa Genghis Khan. In Yasa, the main place was occupied by articles on mutual assistance in the campaign and the prohibition of deceiving the one who trusted. Those who violated these regulations were executed, and the enemy of the “Mongols”, who remained loyal to his ruler, was spared and accepted into his army. Goodness was considered loyalty and courage, and evil - cowardice and betrayal. Genghis Khan divided the entire population into dozens, hundreds, thousands, and tumens of darkness (ten thousand), thereby mixing up the tribes and clans and appointing specially selected people from confidants and Nukerov warriors as commanders over them. All adult and healthy men were considered warriors who, in peacetime, led their farms, and in wartime were taken to weapon. Many young, unmarried women could also perform military service (the ancient tradition of the Amazons and the Poles). Genghis Khan created a network of lines of communications, courier communication on a large scale for military and administrative purposes, and organized reconnaissance, including economic. No one dared to attack the merchants, which led to the development of trade.

In 1207, the Mongol-Tatars began to conquer the tribes that lived north of the Selenga River and in the Yenisei Valley. As a result, areas that were rich in ironworking were captured, which was of great importance for the armament of the new large army. In the same year, 1207, the “Mongols” subjugated the Tangut kingdom of Xi-Xia. The tangut ruler became a tributary of Genghis Khan.

In 1209, the conquerors invaded the Uighur country (East Turkestan). After the bloody war, the Uigurs were defeated. In the 1211 year, the "Mongolian" army invaded China. Genghis Khan's troops defeated the army of the Jin Empire, the conquest of vast China began. In 1215, the "Mongolian" army took the capital of the country - Zhunda (Beijing). KV further campaign against China continued commander Muhali.

After the conquest of the main part of the Jin empire, the “Mongols” began a war against the Kara-Khitan khanate, defeating which established the border with Khorezm. Khorezmshah ruled a huge Muslim state of Khorezm, which stretched from North India to the Caspian and Aral seas, as well as from modern Iran to Kashgar. In 1219-1221 "Mongols" defeated Khorezm and took the main cities of the kingdom. Then the detachments of Jebe and Subedei devastated Northern Iran and, moving further to the north-west, ravaged the Transcaucasus and reached the North Caucasus. Here they are faced with the combined forces of the Alans and Polovtsians. It was not possible to crush the united Alan-Polovtsian army "Mongols". The Mongols managed to defeat the Alans by bribing their allies, the Polovtsian khans. The Polovtsi left and the "Mongols" defeated the Alans, and attacked the Polovtsy. Polovtsi could not combine forces and were defeated. Having relatives in Russia, the Polovtsi turned for help to the Russian princes. The Russian princes of Kiev, Chernigov and Galich and other lands joined forces to jointly repel aggression. 31 May 1223 of the year on the Kalka River Subedei defeated the much superior forces of the Russian-Polovtsian troops because of the inconsistency of the actions of the Russian and Polovtsian teams. Grand Prince of Kiev Mstislav Romanovich Old and Prince of Chernigov Mstislav Svyatoslavich died, like many other princes, governors and bogatyrs, and Galician Prince Mstislav Udatny, famous for his victories, fled. However, on the way back, the "Mongol" army suffered defeat from the Volga Bulgars. After a four-year campaign, Subedei's troops returned.

Genghis Khan himself, completing the conquest of Central Asia, attacked the previously allied Tangut. Their kingdom was destroyed. Thus, by the end of Chinggis Khan’s life (he died in 1227), a huge empire was created from the Pacific Ocean and Northern China in the East to the Caspian Sea in the West.

The successes of the Mongol-Tatars are explained:

- their “chosenness and invincibility” (“The Secret Story”). That is, their morale was much higher than that of the enemy;

- the weakness of neighboring states that were experiencing a period of feudal fragmentation was split into state formations, the tribes little connected with each other, where elite groups fought among themselves and offered their services to the conquerors. The masses of people, tormented by internecine wars and bloody feuds of their rulers and feudal lords, as well as heavy tax oppression, were difficult to unite to repel the invaders, often in the "Mongols" even saw liberators, in which life would be better, therefore they were handed cities, fortresses, the masses were passive, waiting for someone to win;

- Reforms of Genghis Khan, who created a powerful shock horse fist with iron discipline. At the same time, the “Mongolian” army used offensive tactics and maintained a strategic initiative (Suvorov's eye, speed and onslaught). The "Mongols" were striving to deliver sudden blows at the enemy who had been taken unawares ("like snow on their heads"), to disorganize the enemy, to beat him piecemeal. The “Mongolian” army skillfully concentrated its forces, inflicting powerful and crushing blows with superior forces on the main axes and crucial sectors. Small professional squads and poorly trained armed militias or huge Chinese loose armies could not withstand such an army;

- using the achievements of the military thought of neighboring nations, like the Chinese siege technology. In their campaigns, the "Mongols" massively used the most varied means of siege equipment of the time: rams, battering and throwing machines, assault ladders. For example, during the siege of the city of Nishabura in Central Asia, the "Mongolian" army had 3000 ballist, 300 catapults, 700 machines for throwing pots with burning oil, 4000 assault ladders. 2500 carts were brought to the city with stones, which were laid on the besieged;

- thorough strategic and economic intelligence and diplomatic training. Genghis Khan thoroughly knew the enemy, his strengths and weaknesses. They tried to isolate the enemy from possible allies, to inflate internal strife, conflicts. One of the sources of information was the merchants who visited the interesting conquerors of the country. It is known that in Central Asia and the Transcaucasus "Mongols" quite successfully attracted to their side the rich merchants, who led international trade. In particular, trade caravans from Central Asia regularly went to the Itil Bulgaria, and through it to the Russian principalities, delivering valuable information. The effective method of reconnaissance was reconnaissance campaigns of individual detachments that went very far from the main forces. So, during the 14 years of the invasion of Batu, far to the west, right up to the Dnieper, a detachment of Subedei and Jebe penetrated, which went a long way and collected valuable information about the countries and tribes that were about to conquer. Much information was also collected by the “Mongolian” embassies, which the khans sent to neighboring countries under the pretext of negotiations on trade or union.

The myth of the "Mongol-Tatar" invasion

Empire of Genghis Khan at the time of his death

The beginning of the Western campaign

The plans of the campaign against the West took shape at the time of the “Mongolian” leadership long before the campaign of Batu. In 1207, the city of Genghis Khan sent his eldest son Juchi to conquer the tribes that lived in the valley of the Irtysh River and further west. Moreover, already then the lands of Eastern Europe that were to be conquered were included in the “ulus Juchi”. The Persian historian Rashid-ad-Din wrote in his “Collection of Chronicles”: “Juchi, on the basis of the greatest commandment of Genghis Khan, was to go with the army to conquer all areas of the north, that is, Ibir-Sibir, Bular, Desht-i-Kipchak (Polovtsian steppes ), Bashkird, Rus and Cherkas to Khazar Derbent, and subordinate them to their power. ”

However, this broad aggressive program was not implemented. The main forces of the "Mongolian" army were connected by battles in the Middle Kingdom, Central and Central Asia. In 1220, they only undertook a reconnaissance campaign by Subedei and Jebe. This campaign made it possible to study information about the internal situation of states and tribes, the routes of communication, the capabilities of the military forces of the enemy, etc. Deep strategic intelligence was carried out in Eastern European countries.

Genghis Khan transferred to the management of his son Jochi the “Kipchak country” (Polovtsy) and ordered him to take care of the expansion of possessions, including at the expense of land in the west. After Juchi's death in 1227, the land of his ulus passes to his son, Baty. Great Khan became the son of Genghis Khan Ogedei. The Persian historian Rashid ad-Din writes that Ugedei "in pursuance of the decree given by Genghis Khan to Juchi, commissioned the conquest of the Nordic countries to the members of his house."

In the 1229 year, ascending the throne, Ogedei sends two corps to the west. The first, led by Chormagan, was sent south of the Caspian Sea against the last Khorezm Shah Jelal ad-Din (was defeated and died in 1231 year), to Khorasan and Iraq. The second corps, led by Subedei and Kokosh, moved north of the Caspian Sea against the Polovtsy and the Volga Bulgars. This was not a reconnaissance campaign. Subedey conquered the tribes, preparing the way and the springboard for the invasion. The Subedei detachments pressed the Saksin and Polovtsy in the Caspian steppes, destroyed the Bulgarian "watchmen" (guard posts) on the Yaik River and began to conquer the Bashkir lands. However, Subedey could not advance further. For further advance to the west, much larger forces were required.

After kurultai 1229, the great Khan Ugedei moved the Ulus Juchi troops to help Subedey. That is, the campaign to the west was not yet common. The main place in the policy of the empire was the war in China. At the beginning of 1230, the Ulus Juchi troops appeared in the Caspian steppes, reinforcing the body of Subedei. The "Mongols" broke through the Yaik River and broke into the possession of the Polovtsy between Yaik and the Volga. At the same time, the "Mongols" continued to pressure the lands of the Bashkir tribes. Since 1232, the “Mongolian” forces have increased the pressure on Volga Bulgaria.

However, the “ulus Juchi” forces were not enough to conquer Eastern Europe. Bashkir tribes stubbornly resisted, and for their complete submission took several more years. Persisted against the first strike and Volga Bulgaria. This state had a serious military potential, rich cities, a developed economy and a large population. The threat of external invasion forced the Bulgarian feudal lords to combine their squads and resources. On the southern frontiers of the state, on the border of forests and steppes, for the defense against the steppe people built powerful defensive lines. Huge ramparts stretched for tens of kilometers. On these fortified lines, the Volgari Bulgars were able to contain the onslaught of the “Mongolian” army. The "Mongols" had to winter in the steppes, they could not break through to the rich cities of the Bulgars. Only in the steppe zone did the “Mongol” detachments advance quite far to the west, reaching the lands of the Alans.

At a council meeting in 1235, the issue of conquering Eastern European countries was again discussed. It became clear that the forces of only the western regions of the empire, “Juchi ulus”, could not cope with this task. The peoples and tribes of Eastern Europe fought hard and skillfully. The Persian historian Juvayni, a contemporary of the “Mongolian” conquests, wrote that the kurultai 1235 of the year “decided to take possession of the Bulgars, Ases and Russia countries that were located in the Batu camp, were not yet subjugated and were proud of their multiplicity”.

The collection of “Mongolian” nobility 1235 of the year announced a general march to the west. "To help and reinforce Batu" troops were sent from Central Asia and most of the khans, descendants of Genghis Khan (Chingizids). Initially, Ogedei himself planned to lead the Kipchak campaign, but Munke dissuaded him. The march was attended by the following Genghis Khan's sons Jochi - Batu, Orda-Ezhen, Shiban, Tangkut and Burke, the grandson of Chagatai - Buri and son Chagatai - Baydar sons Ogedei - Giiyuk and Kadan, sons Tolui - Munch and Buczek, the son of Genghis Khan - Kyulhan ( Kyulkan), grandson of Genghis Khan's brother - Argasun. One of the best generals of Genghis Khan, Subedei, was summoned from Kitawa. At all ends of the empire, messengers were sent with orders to the clans, tribes and nationalities under the authority of the Great Khan to assemble on a campaign.

All winter 1235-1236 "Mongol" gathered in the headwaters of the Irtysh and the steppes of the Northern Altai, preparing for the big march. In the spring of 1236, the army marched. Previously, they wrote about hundreds of thousands of "fierce" warriors. In modern historical literature, the total number of "Mongolian" troops in the western campaign in 120 — 150 thousand people is estimated. According to some estimates, the army initially comprised 30-40 thousand warriors, but was then reinforced by the allied and subjugated tribes, who deployed auxiliary contingents.

A large army, which was replenished on the way with new and new detachments, reached the Volga in a few months and there joined forces with the "Juchi ulus". In the late autumn of 1236, the combined “Mongolian” forces attacked Volga Bulgaria.


Source: V. V. Kargalov. Mongol-Tatar invasion of Russia

The defeat of the neighbors of Russia

This time Volga Bulgaria did not resist. First, the conquerors increased their military power. Secondly, the "Mongols" neutralized the neighbors of Bulgaria, with whom the Bulgars interacted in the struggle against the invaders. At the very beginning of 1236, the allied Bulgars of the eastern Polovtsi were defeated. Some of them, led by Khan Kotyan, left the Volga region and migrated to the west, where they asked for protection from Hungary. The remaining subjugated to Batu and along with the military contingents of other Volga peoples later joined his troops. The Mongols managed to agree with the Bashkirs and part of the Mordovians.

As a result, Volga Bulgaria was doomed. The conquerors broke through the defense lines of the Bulgars and invaded the country. The Bulgarian cities fortified by ramparts and oak walls, one after another fell. The capital of the state, the city of Bulgar, was taken by storm, the inhabitants were slaughtered. The Russian chronicler wrote: “The godless Tatars came from the Eastern countries to the Bulgarian land, and they took the glorious and great Bulgarian city, and beat them with weapons from an old man to a young man and a baby, and took a lot of goods, and captured the city and all the land they captured.” Volga Bulgaria was terribly devastated. The ruins of the city were converted Bulgar, Kernek, Zhukotin, Suvar and others. The countryside was also devastated. Many Bulgars fled to the north. The other refugees were received by the Grand Duke Vladimir Yuri Vsevolodovich and settled them in the Volga cities. After the formation of the Golden Horde, the territory of Volga Bulgaria became part of it, and the Volga Bulgarians (Bulgars) became one of the main components in the ethnogenesis of modern Kazan Tatars and Chuvash.

By the spring of 1237, the conquest of Volga Bulgaria was completed. Moving north, the “Mongols” reached the Kama River. The “Mongolian” command was preparing for the next stage of the march — the invasion of the Polovtsian steppes.

Polovtsi. As is known from written sources, the Torks replaced the “disappeared” Pechenegs in the XI century (according to the classical version, the southern branch of the Seljuk Turks), then the Polovtsi. But for two decades of being in the South Russian steppes, the Torks did not leave any archaeological sites (S. Pletnev. Polovtsian land. Old Russian principalities 10 - 13 centuries). In the XI-XII centuries, the Polovtsi, direct descendants of the Siberian Scythians, known to the Chinese as the Dinlins, advanced into the steppe zone of European Russia in southern Siberia. They, like the Pechenegs, had a "Scythian" anthropological appearance - they were blond Caucasian. The paganism of the Polovtsi practically did not differ from the Slavic: they worshiped the father-heaven and mother-earth, the cult of ancestors was developed, the wolf enjoyed great respect (we remember Russian fairy tales). The main difference between the Polovtsy and the Rus of Kiev or Chernigov, who were fully sedentary farmers, was paganism and a semi-nomadic way of life.

In the Ural steppes Polovtsi strengthened in the middle of the XI century, and this is due to their mention in the Russian chronicles. Although not identified a single burial of the XI century in the steppe zone of southern Russia. This suggests that initially military units, not a nationality, came to the borders of Russia. Somewhat later, traces of Polovtsians will be clearly visible. In the 1060-s, military clashes between Russians and Polovtsi became regular, although Polovtsians often act in alliance with someone from the Russian princes. In the 1116 year, the Polovtsy won up over the Yas and occupied the White Tower, from that time on, and on Don and Donets, their archaeological traces - “stone women” - appear. It was in the Don steppes that the earliest Polovtsian "women" were discovered (the images of "ancestors" and "grandfathers" were called so). It should be noted that this custom also has a connection with the Scythian era and the time of early bronze. Later Polovtsian statues appear in the Dnieper, Azov and Ciscaucasia. It is noted that the sculptures of women-Polovchanok have a number of "Slavic" signs - this is the temporal rings (a distinctive tradition of the Russian ethnos), many on the chest and belts have multipath stars and crosses in the circle, these charms meant that their mistress is patronized by the Goddess-mother.

For a long time, it was considered that the Polovtsy were almost Mongoloid in appearance, but Turkic in language. However, in their anthropology, the Polovtsians are typical northern Caucasians. This is confirmed by statues, where the images of male faces are always with a mustache and even with a beard. Türkic language of the Polovtsy is not confirmed. The situation with the Polovtsian language is reminiscent of the Scythian - with respect to the Scythians, they adopted a version (unconfirmed) that they are Iranian-speaking. Almost no trace of the Polovtsian language, like the Scythian, remained. An interesting question is where did he disappear in such a relatively short period of time? For analysis there are only a few names of Polovtsian nobility. However, their names are not Turkic! There are no Turkic analogues, but there is a consonance with Scythian names. Bunyak, Konchak sound the same as the Scythian Taksak, Palak, Spartak, etc. The names of such Polovtsian are also found in the Sanskrit tradition - Gzak and Gosak are noted in Rajatorongini (a Kashmir chronicle in Sanskrit). According to the "classical" (Western European) tradition, all those who lived in the steppes to the east and south of the state of Rurikovich were called "Turks" and "Tatars".

In anthropological and linguistic terms, the Polovtsy were the same Sarmatian Scythians as the inhabitants of the Don Oblast, of the Azov region, on whose lands they came. The formation of the Polovtsian principalities in the southern Russian steppes of the 12th century should be considered as a result of the migration of Siberian Scythians (Rus, according to Yu. D. Petukhov and several other researchers) under pressure from the Turks to the west, on lands related to the Volga-Don yas, and the Pechenegs.

Why are related peoples fighting with each other? It is enough to recall the bloody feudal wars of the Russian princes or look at the current relations between Ukraine and Russia (two Russian states) in order to understand the answer. The ruling groups fought for power. There was also a religious schism - between pagans and Christians, somewhere already penetrated Islam.

The archeological data confirm this opinion about the origin of the Polovtsi as the heirs of the Scythian-Sarmatian civilization. There is no big gap between the Sarmatian-Alanian cultural period and the “Polovtsian” one. Even more than that, the cultures of the “Polovtsian field” show affinity with the northern, Russian. In particular, only Russian ceramics were found in the Polovtsian settlements on the Don. This proves that in the XII century, the main mass of the population of the “Polovtsian field” was still constituted by the direct descendants of the Scythian-Sarmatians (Rus), and not the “Turks”. This is also claimed not written down and written sources of the XV-XVII centuries. Polish researchers Martin Belsky and Matvey Stryikovsky report the kinship of the Khazars, the Pechenegs and the Polovtsy with the Slavs. The Russian nobleman Andrei Lyzlov, author of the Scythian History, as well as the Croatian historian Mavro Orbini, in the book The Slavic Kingdom, claimed that the “Polovtsy” were related to the “Goths” who stormed the limits of the Roman Empire in the 4th-5th centuries, and "Goths", in turn, are Scythian Sarmatians. Thus, the sources that survived after the total “cleansing” of the XVIII century (carried out in the interests of the West) speak about the kinship of the Scythians, Polovtsians and Russians. Russian researchers of the 18th and early 20th centuries also wrote about this, who opposed the “classical” version of the history of Russia, composed by the “Germans” and their Russian echoes.

The Polovtsi were not “wild nomads” with whom they like to portray. They had their cities. The Polovtsian cities of Sugrov, Sharukan and Balin are known to Russian chronicles, which contradicts the concept of the “Wild Field” in the Polovtsian period. The famous Arab geographer and traveler Al-Idrisi (1100-1165, according to other 1161 data) reports on six fortresses on the Don: Luka, Astarkuz, Barun, Busara, Sarad and Abkad. There is an opinion that Barun corresponds to Voronezh. Yes, the word "Baruna" has a Sanskrit root: "Varuna" in the Vedic tradition, and "Svarog" in the Slavonic-Russian (God "welded", "bungled", created our planet).

During the period of disunity of the Rus, the Polovtsi actively participated in the showdown of the princes of Rurikovich, in the Russian strife. It should be noted that the Polovtsian Khan princes regularly entered into dynastic alliances with the princes of Russia, became related. In particular, the Kiev prince Svyatopolk Izyaslavich married the daughter of the Polovtsian Khan Tugorkan; Yuri Vladimirovich (Dolgoruky) married the daughter of the Polovtsian khan Aepa; Volyn prince Andrei Vladimirovich married the granddaughter of Tugorkan; Mstislav the Redeem was married to the daughter of the Polovtsian Khan Kotyan, etc.

Polovtsy suffered a great defeat from Vladimir Monomakh (V. Kargalov, A. Sakharov. Commanders of Ancient Russia). Part of the Polovtsy went to Transcaucasia, the other to Europe. The remaining Polovtsy, reduced their activity. In 1223, the Polovtsi were twice defeated by the “Mongolian” troops - in alliance with the Yasy-Alans and with the Russians. In 1236-1337 The Polovtsy took the first blow of Batu's army and put up stubborn resistance, which was finally broken only after several years of brutal war. The Polovtsi constituted the majority of the population of the Golden Horde, and after its collapse and absorption by the Russian state, their descendants became Russians. As already noted in anthropological and cultural terms, they were descendants of the Scythians, like the Rus of the ancient Russian state, so everything was back to normal.

Thus, the Polovtsy, contrary to the opinion of Western historians, were not Turks and Mongoloids. Polovtsi were light-eyed and blond-haired Indo-Europeans (Aryans), pagans. They led a semi-nomadic (“Cossack”) way of life, settled in the creeks (remember Aryan Vezhi - the creeks-ves of the Aryans), if necessary, fought with the Russians of Kiev, Chernigov, and the Turks, or were friends, made friends and fraternized. They had a common Scythian-Aryan origin with the Rus of the Russian principalities, a similar language, cultural traditions and customs.

According to the historian Yu. D. Petukhov: “Most likely, the Polovtsy were not some separate ethnic group. Their constant presence to the Pechenegs suggests that both were one people, more precisely. A nationality that could not be attributed either to the Russians of Kievan Rus that had been Christianized by that time, nor to the pagan Russians of the Scythian-Siberian world. The Polovtsi were located between two huge ethnocultural and linguistic cores of the super ethnic group of the Rus. But they did not belong to any "core". ... Non-occurrence in any of the gigantic ethno-massifs and decided the fate of both the Pechenegs and the Polovtsy. ” When the two parts of the two super-ethnos nuclei collided, the Polovtsi left the historical arena, were absorbed by two arrays of the Rus.

The Polovtsi were one of the first to take the blows of the next wave of the Scythian-Siberian Rus, which, according to Western tradition, are usually called “Tatar-Mongols”. Why? In order to reduce the civilization, historical and living space of the Russian-Russian super-ethnos, to solve the “Russian question” by deleting the Russian people from history.


Polovtsian steppe

In the spring of 1237, the “Mongols” attacked the Polovtsy and Alans. From the Lower Volga, the “Mongolian” army moved westward, using tactics “raids” against their weakened enemies. The left flank of the ravine arc, which ran along the Caspian Sea and further along the steppes of the North Caucasus, towards the mouth of the Don, formed the corps of Guyuk Khan and Munk. The right flank, which moved north, along the Polovtsian steppes, consisted of Mengu Khan's troops. To the aid of the Khans, who fought stubbornly against the Polovtsy and the Alans, they later advanced Subedea (he was in Bulgaria).

The “Mongolian” troops marched across the Caspian steppes on a broad front. Polovtsi and Alans suffered a heavy defeat. Many died in fierce battles, the remaining forces rolled over the Don. However, the Polovtsy and Alans, the same courageous warriors, like the "Mongols" (heirs of the northern Scythian tradition), continued to resist.

Almost simultaneously with the war, fighting in the direction of the Polovtsy took place in the north. In the summer of 1237, the “Mongols” attacked the lands of the Burtases, Moksha and Mordovians, these tribes occupied vast territories on the right bank of the Middle Volga. The corps of Batu himself and several other khans — the Horde, Berke, Storm, and Kulkan fought against these tribes. The lands of the Burtases, Moksha and Muzzles were relatively easily conquered by the "Mongols". They had a hollow advantage over tribal militias. In the autumn of 1237, the "Mongols" began to prepare for the campaign against Russia.



To be continued ...
Author:
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  1. Igor39
    Igor39 15 March 2016 05: 52
    +3
    New historical trends ...
    1. Mera joota
      Mera joota 15 March 2016 06: 17
      20
      Quote: Igor39
      New historical trends ...

      Well, while Alexander did not say anything new, except that he cited theories about the origin of the Polovtsy ...
      1. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre 15 March 2016 09: 31
        +1
        Just a better fake, in comparison with the poles of Fomenko and Co. 3/4 of the truth was taken, 1/3 of our own delirium was added, and everything was presented stylistically in a normal scientific style. Only the conclusions are advanced. Sucked out of ... something finger-like.
        1. Chiropractor
          Chiropractor 15 March 2016 10: 45
          10
          According to the text, Subedey with his corps butted Bulgaria since 1229 and could not advance much, and then the troops of the Jochi ulus were sent to him and subdued him. After that, he continued butting, achieved tactical successes, but in a strategic sense he had nothing to boast about - and at the 1235 kurultai, it was decided to strengthen the grouping with units from all over the then power, and even "From Kitav they called one of the best generals of Genghis Khan - Subedei. !!!!

          What kind of country is Kitaw I will not ask - the typo is obvious.
          But how, damn it, another Subedea was called to help Subedea? Has the supply of clones remained since the time of Chengiz Khan? Subedey - not a name, but a position, such as another general was sent to help the general?

          Reading delirium in one paragraph, you immediately lose confidence in the entire report as a whole.
          I don’t put a minus, but the article is for revision.
          1. Seal
            Seal 16 March 2016 14: 11
            +8
            Has the supply of clones remained since the time of Chengiz Khan? Subedey - not a name, but a position, such as another general was sent to help the general?

            So after all, Genghis Khan is also a position. More precisely, the position is Khan. And Shagys or Chingis is the Eastern one. Just "Eastern Khan", of which there were thousands over the centuries. This is just another puncture from professional historians. If they (well, not they, but travelers, who then brought all this information to the European courts and court historians) walked (traveled) through the Turkic lands, then to the question "Who caused this or that destruction" from their Turkic-speaking counterparts could receive the following answers:
            1) This was done by Shagys Khan (Genghis Khan). And the storyteller understands some kind of famous Khan, whose lands were located in the East. Well, a little east of those who were interviewed.
            2) This was done by Batys-Khan (Batu, Batu). This is any Khan of lands located west of those who were interviewed. Batys - Western.

            Well, from the south and from the north (from Siberia) the Turks were apparently attacked much less, and all the main claims of the Turkic-speaking storytellers put forward to the addresses of "Chinggis Khan" and "Batu Khan".
            Historians, having collected such a mass of claims to "Genghis Khan" and "Batu Khan" and stupidly not understanding that they (well, or those travelers who then brought all this information to the European courts and court historians) were told simply about their local showdowns with some eastern or western neighbors for 300-400 years, and considering that "Chinggis Khan" and "Batu Khan" are the names of specific people, they decided that such large-scale acts could have been committed by exceptionally great people. And honestly mistaken, historians began to mold the myth of the "Great Genghis Khan" and his grandson "Batu Khan" (whom historians sent to the very west).
        2. PKK
          PKK 15 March 2016 12: 50
          -3
          Yeah! Alexander Samsonov, Karamzin had a great headache. The events are described with amazing accuracy. There’s a small correction from me. In past centuries, the movement went along the rivers, it was not really possible to move overland, something serious, swamps, lack of bridges, overflowing rivers, thickets prevented forests. Yes, and when horses appeared, the question is from questions. There is an opinion that horses were brought only in the 16th century. Therefore, it would be more correct to remake and direct the arrows along the rivers.
          1. shasherin.pavel
            shasherin.pavel 15 March 2016 20: 14
            +3
            From Moscow to the Vozha River it is necessary to transfer 40 people with horses, the boat can accommodate only 000 people, a thousand boats only for the infantry. Okay with the Rusichi, where is the infantry base of the troops, and how can you remove a Tatar from a horse? The Turks, before the advent of the Janissaries (an infantry army consisting of children taken from Christians in childhood), were all on horseback and completely refused to go into the infantry. So don't "la-la". You took the text about civil transportation and only over long distances, but what if you need to go south to the source of the Don, and the rivers Oka, Vozha, Rubezh, etc. flow from west to east. From Moscow to the Nepryava, a tributary of the Don, you can only get there by dry route, since along the rivers you can only get along the Oka to the Volga and then to the Caspian.
            1. Molot1979
              Molot1979 19 October 2016 05: 52
              +1
              Perhaps this will be a world discovery for you, but before the Janissaries, the Ottomans had the infantry and it was called Yaya-Mussel. Is historical illiteracy forever?
          2. JACTUS RECTUS
            JACTUS RECTUS 16 March 2016 03: 58
            +5
            Horses appeared in the 16th century ?! This is just unique nonsense! Thank you, I haven’t laughed like that for a long time.
        3. Bersaglieri
          Bersaglieri 15 March 2016 14: 45
          +3
          Not your own delirium, but borrowed. At the "researcher" Y.D. Petukhov (the newspaper "Voice of the Universe" of the early 90s, everyone remembers?
        4. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker 15 March 2016 15: 33
          +9
          Quote: abrakadabre
          Just a better fake,

          Quote: abrakadabre
          Only the conclusions are advanced. Sucked out of ... something finger-like.

          The lovers of labor of others divorced here immeasurably ... Solid internet wiseacres ....
          So write an article as opposed to laid out here, with the facts not "sucked out of the finger."
          And it turns out goliman criticism on the empty place...
          The author is well done. I tried to raise the materials, combine the facts, connect them with logic. And if there are shortcomings, then it's not scientific work.
          The main point of the article is the proof that Mongol invasion is not a myth in spite of all the idiots who adhere to the theory of NiF, and even worse ...
          1. Talgat
            Talgat 15 March 2016 19: 55
            +5
            I agree - we respect labor

            But still I have to give a comment at least by the Polovtsians, if only because he himself belongs to the Kipchak family

            The Polovtsi - they are the Cumans - they are the Kipchaks - in the indicated centuries before the "Tatar-Mongol invasion" really occupied a huge territory of Russia and Kazakhstan, etc.

            I agree that there was no antagonism between the vast steppes of the Kipchaks and the ancient ancestors of the Russians. This is described in the Word of the Regiment, and so on - two Kipchaksikh khans took the Russian prince and went to the third Kipchak - and vice versa - all mixed up - fragmentation of both Russians and Kipchaks created a constant civil strife - where it was not important who you are Russian or Kipchak

            This is how the "yoke" lived - the question arises - maybe the Golden Horde also had positive moments? Ending strife - integration all the same - peace - safe trade routes - united state - stop raids - cities no longer burn - ??

            Regarding the roots and tongue of the Kipchaks
            Here recently one of ours from the Kazakhs - I don’t remember exactly - maybe Marek, posted the scans of the Codex Kumanikus - the ancient Roman-Kuman phrasebook

            Well, there letters like lambda were gamma, etc. - it was not clear I immediately translated into Latin
            And when I translated - everything was written in Kazakh - as if centuries had not passed

            "Uzun agashtyn basynda kus otyr - salt atuga bushes ok kerek, etc., etc.

            T e Türks we were - and the modern Kazakh language was our language - they also knew the truth in Russian

            and our khans sometimes had Russian names — they were famous, for example, Danila Kobyakovich and Yuri Konchakovich — but it’s just that Russian mothers gave them names
            And they spoke Russian - for the same reason - as I speak and write - they learned
            1. KaPToC
              KaPToC 15 March 2016 20: 57
              +2
              I want to draw your attention to the fact that the word yoke only in our time began to bear a negative meaning, earlier this word denoted a union, literally - the Mogul-Tatar union.
              1. abrakadabre
                abrakadabre 16 March 2016 10: 42
                +1
                the word yoke only in our time began to bear a negative meaning, earlier this word denoted a union, literally - the Mogul-Tatar union.
                It would not hurt to bring the source to such a radical theory.
                1. KaPToC
                  KaPToC 16 March 2016 20: 12
                  +2
                  http://semenov.academic.ru/506/иго

                  Loafer, type in the search for the meaning of the word yoke and will be in Schastye.
              2. Seal
                Seal 16 March 2016 14: 14
                +1
                Well, where does such "literalism" come from ?? And why do we not see such games in a historically reliable period? Oh, sorry, do we see such "Mughal-Tatar unions"?
              3. ver_
                ver_ 18 August 2018 00: 04
                +1
                ... yeah - while the Mongols were not from the word - at all ..
          2. Oldwiser
            Oldwiser 16 March 2016 08: 25
            +2
            If the invasion of the Mongol-Tatars into Russia is NOT a MYTH, then how can one explain the behavior of the Russian Orthodox Patriarch, who (according to the traditional history of the Miller-Romanovs !!!) in 1242 - immediately after the BATYI TAKES KIEV goes from NOVGOROD to KIEV and transfers there patriarchy, serves Hallelujah and generally COOPERATES very closely with the "Mongolian occupation authorities" in terms of ORGANIZING THE CHURCH TAMGA instead of the Mongolian tamga (!!!) and the widespread organization and opening of Orthodox monasteries, construction (with Mongolian money - a tribute to the conquered countries of Europe and Asia!) Orthodox churches in Russia (St. Sophia in Kiev is a copy of the Tsar-Grad one!), etc. etc.
            1. Heimdall47
              Heimdall47 16 March 2016 08: 46
              +4
              explain the behavior of the Russian Orthodox patriarch, who (according to the traditional history of the Miller-Romanovs !!!) in 1242

              In Russia, the patriarch appeared at the end of the 16th century.
              serves hallelujah

              How's that?
              CHURCH TEN ORGANIZATION

              The Orthodox Church does not tithe - this is an Old Testament custom.
              1. Oldwiser
                Oldwiser 17 March 2016 11: 20
                +1
                Quote: Heimdall47
                In Russia, the patriarch appeared in the late 16th century

                That's right - I apologize - Metropolitan of Novgorod and Tver.
                Quote: Heimdall47
                How's that?

                Prayer "To Glory"
                Quote: Heimdall47
                The Orthodox Church does not tithe - this is an Old Testament custom

                Peasants attributed to the monastery and paid him 10% of the crop (tithe - a tenth)
              2. Oldwiser
                Oldwiser 17 March 2016 11: 20
                0
                Quote: Heimdall47
                In Russia, the patriarch appeared in the late 16th century

                That's right - I apologize - Metropolitan of Novgorod and Tver.
                Quote: Heimdall47
                How's that?

                Prayer "To Glory"
                Quote: Heimdall47
                The Orthodox Church does not tithe - this is an Old Testament custom

                Peasants attributed to the monastery and paid him 10% of the crop (tithe - a tenth)
          3. Oldwiser
            Oldwiser 16 March 2016 08: 25
            +2
            If the invasion of the Mongol-Tatars into Russia is NOT a MYTH, then how can one explain the behavior of the Russian Orthodox Patriarch, who (according to the traditional history of the Miller-Romanovs !!!) in 1242 - immediately after the BATYI TAKES KIEV goes from NOVGOROD to KIEV and transfers there patriarchy, serves Hallelujah and generally COOPERATES very closely with the "Mongolian occupation authorities" in terms of ORGANIZING THE CHURCH TAMGA instead of the Mongolian tamga (!!!) and the widespread organization and opening of Orthodox monasteries, construction (with Mongolian money - a tribute to the conquered countries of Europe and Asia!) Orthodox churches in Russia (St. Sophia in Kiev is a copy of the Tsar-Grad one!), etc. etc.
            1. Seal
              Seal 16 March 2016 14: 17
              +2
              Myth.
              Genghis Khan is a position. More precisely, the position is Khan. And Shagys or Chingis is simply in Turkic (Kazakh) meaning "Eastern". Just "Eastern Khan", of which there were thousands over the centuries. This is just another puncture from professional historians. If they (well, not they, but the travelers, who then brought all this information to the European courts and court historians) walked (traveled) through the Turkic lands, then to the question "Who caused this or that destruction" from their Turkic-speaking counterparts could receive the following answers:
              1) This was done by Shagys Khan (Genghis Khan). And the storyteller understands some kind of famous Khan, whose lands were located in the East. Well, a little east of those who were interviewed.
              2) This was done by Batys-Khan (Batu, Batu). This is any Khan of lands located west of those who were interviewed. Batys (Kazakh) - Western.

              Well, from the south and from the north (from Siberia) the Turks were apparently attacked much less, and all the main claims of the Turkic-speaking storytellers put forward to the addresses of "Chinggis Khan" and "Batu Khan".
              Historians, having collected such a mass of claims to "Genghis Khan" and "Batu Khan" and stupidly not understanding that they (well, or those travelers who then brought all this information to the European courts and court historians) were told simply about their local showdowns with some eastern or western neighbors for 300-400 years, and considering that "Chinggis Khan" and "Batu Khan" are the names of specific people, they decided that such large-scale acts could have been committed by exceptionally great people. And honestly mistaken, historians began to mold the myth of the "Great Genghis Khan" and his grandson "Batu Khan" (whom historians sent to the very west).
            2. Uncle VasyaSayapin
              Uncle VasyaSayapin 16 March 2016 21: 37
              0
              The ROC supported the Mongols. The Mongols did not particularly touch them and they became practically independent, and any strong ruler of Russia tried to subjugate them. For the ROC, the "Tatar-Mongol yoke" is a blessing. Christianity instills in people obedience to the authorities. And the Mongols had power. And the prince, who accepted the power of the Mongols, became generally a saint. This is not a reproach to anyone.
      2. Penzuck
        Penzuck 15 March 2016 13: 04
        +4
        Quote: Mera Joota
        Well, while Alexander did not say anything new, except that he cited theories about the origin of the Polovtsy ...

        Maybe the author every day, being influenced by the works of Fomenko and Co., tries to convince himself again and again? (It is not clear what).

        Questions to the Author:
        1. If we say Kruzenshtern, then this is either a person or a ship bully
        And if WE say Goths? (Slavs, Mordovians, Khazars) then whom do we mean?
        Emperor RI will write one, Caesar another, Maestro Orbini - the third, Jordan - the third and a half. Rashid ad-Din Fazlullah ibn Abu al-Khair Ali Hamadani - FOUR. And comrade author is his authoritative opinion.
        2. If the ticket is about the breeding of fish, then we do not mention fleas living in their wool wassat
        Those. "The myth of the" Mongol-Tatar "invasion." - TOPIC.
        Divide: a. The myth of the Mongol Tatars. Have you been?
        b. The myth of the invasion. It was?
        Considering that the entire ecumene experienced the "Mongolian" scourge and served the "Mongols", it was captured by the "Mongols". Those. a certain "invasion" of some "Mongols" from 1206 to 1240 was from the direction of the "Karakorum" was evident.
        Considering that Ogedei, Subedei, Jochi, etc. are clearly not Slavic or Turkic. And also hikes throughout Yu.V. Asia and Northern China (Where there were no white nikad). And the earlier campaigns of China against the Huns and "Central Asians". That is not obvious non-Mongoloid "Mongol-Tatars" and not obvious their attitude to the "super-ethnic group of the Rus".
        3. So what is the actual disclosure of the myth and what is the truth in fact? And where is the logic?
        1. Svyatoslav
          Svyatoslav 15 March 2016 17: 32
          +2
          But apart from Fomenko and Nosovsky, do you know anyone from those who wrote this? Already a household name.
          What are you up to them .....
          Russia learned about TMI only in the XVIII. And away we go!
        2. KaPToC
          KaPToC 15 March 2016 21: 08
          +4
          At the same time, it is completely incomprehensible who these same Mongols were? Obviously, the people of the Khalkha have nothing to do with the historical Mongols.
          The second obvious fact is that historical China and modern tea are completely different states.
          The truth is that the medieval level of development of logistics does not allow to carry out all these described military evolution from China to Europe and vice versa. I draw your attention to the fact that, for example, Napoleon was not able to supply his army with much shorter distances and much more developed logistics.
          You can walk through other interesting facts: for example, about unsuccessful attempts to create catapults in our time or about how much feed horses need, but why? Indeed, the historians of the humanities and natural sciences are scorned, as are their followers.
          1. Penzuck
            Penzuck 16 March 2016 12: 46
            +2
            Quote: KaPToC
            At the same time, it is completely incomprehensible who these same Mongols were? Obviously, the people of the Khalkha have nothing to do with the historical Mongols.

            Panyatna, the ancient Mongols are Russians who switched to the Slavic language. wassat
            Quote: KaPToC
            The second obvious fact is that historical China and modern tea are completely different states.

            And?
            Quote: KaPToC
            The truth is that the medieval level of development of logistics does not allow to carry out all these described military evolution from China to Europe and vice versa.

            Tell the herders of Mongolia, Kazakhstan and Tuva, as well as the Crimean and Nogai Tatars. I'm not talking about the campaigns of A. Macedon, Hannibal, Scipio.
            "Napulion" threw 200 soldiers into battle at a time near Borodino? Oh yeah...
            And TM campaigns lasted for years.
            Quote: KaPToC
            about unsuccessful attempts to create catapults in our time

            No luck? Or maybe the performance characteristics are not correctly selected?
            Quote: KaPToC
            Indeed, the historians of the humanities and natural sciences are scorned, as are their followers.

            Oh how. Did not know...
            1. KaPToC
              KaPToC 16 March 2016 20: 27
              +3
              The Macedonian led a tiny army, Scipio and Hannibal - the unscrupulous myth-making of historians, in the sense of the scale of the hostilities, are clearly exaggerated by historians based on what the historian should be like.
            2. Molot1979
              Molot1979 19 October 2016 06: 00
              +1
              However, this is so. With great contempt. Tell the historian, it’s impossible to build pyramids even with the help of copper instruments - he’ll go to shit. Although the correctness of the techie is obvious, and even experimentally confirmed. Try to prove that it’s impossible to conduct 150 thousand horseback riders in Eastern Europe in winter, and he will use the same shit. Although the correctness of the techie is again obvious and confirmed by experiment.
          2. Uncle VasyaSayapin
            Uncle VasyaSayapin 16 March 2016 21: 53
            -2
            Napoleon’s army was mostly on foot, so it’s not entirely correct to compare them with the Mongols. The fact of the transition from Mongolia to the steppes between the Caspian and Black Seas is not a historical transition of Kalmyks (a whole nation) by historical standards.
            As for the fodder - since the Mongols came to Russia with the Polovtsy and not all the cities of Russia were plundered - so that they could prepare supplies, m. give the ROC.
            1. ver_
              ver_ 11 February 2019 06: 42
              0
              ... The Mongols never went anywhere - from a word in general ... The Mongolian People’s Republic was founded in 1920 .. They completely lost too much .. You don’t see the shores ..
              1. mister-red
                mister-red 15 August 2020 21: 48
                0
                The country of Israel was founded in 1948.
      3. padded jacket
        padded jacket 15 March 2016 13: 10
        +7
        It seems more like a fairy tale, such as about the Great Israeli Empire from the Nile to the Euphrates, about which the Zionists of Tel Aviv compose legends lol
        1. Oldwiser
          Oldwiser 15 March 2016 17: 53
          0
          The terms Egypt, Israel and Judea are originally from the Holy Scriptures and the "paws of Tel Aviv" have nothing to do with it.
        2. Oldwiser
          Oldwiser 15 March 2016 17: 53
          -3
          The terms Egypt, Israel and Judea are originally from the Holy Scriptures and the "paws of Tel Aviv" have nothing to do with it.
        3. shasherin.pavel
          shasherin.pavel 15 March 2016 20: 22
          +2
          Quote: quilted jacket
          about the Great Israeli Empire from the Nile to the Euphrates

          Let's look a little from the other side: Ancient Egypt conquered Palestine and conquered part of Syria to the borders of Mesopotamia. Israel at this time was part of Egypt ... Remember: Petro! I caught a bear! "" So bring him here! "" I can't! He crap me! does not start up ".
          1. KaPToC
            KaPToC 15 March 2016 21: 12
            0
            But in the Bible there is a description of the nature of ancient Egypt, and there is nothing about sands and deserts, but there are rivers, fields and forests, if I had not read the story, I thought that Egypt was located somewhere in central Russia.
            1. Pomeranian
              Pomeranian 16 March 2016 13: 14
              -1
              Quote: KaPToC
              if I had not read stories

              If they could have been in Bible time in the Middle East and Egypt, they would have seen rivers and forests and fields.
              1. KaPToC
                KaPToC 16 March 2016 20: 15
                +2
                Alas, in biblical times there were already sands. To see rivers of forests and fields there, one must fly into the past years for three hundred thousand.
                1. Pomeranian
                  Pomeranian 17 March 2016 09: 28
                  0
                  Quote: KaPToC
                  To see rivers of forests and fields there, one must fly into the past years for three hundred thousand.

                  The concept "fertile crescent" was not invented by me
      4. Penzuck
        Penzuck 15 March 2016 13: 23
        +1
        Dear author -> author -> author, will the article lose its meaning if renamed: "the myth of the Nazi invasion." to replace Tatars with Italians (fascists), and Mongols with Germans. And also take into account the name Adolf (red wolf) instead of Temuchzhin. And take into account that the RSFSFR cooperated with the United States (where there is racial segregation), with Germany and a bunch of National Socialist states (Armenia, Georgia) and conclude that Stalin with Hitler and Roosevelt decided to jointly attack the Jews of Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania and Belarus (and also France)? And they fought for so long, because zhYdy are the most harmful people on earth wassat .
        (I apologize if I offended anyone).
        PS: Parallels, however.
      5. shasherin.pavel
        shasherin.pavel 15 March 2016 19: 59
        0
        Quote: Mera Joota
        cited theories about the origin of the Polovtsy ...

        But it is already known that the word "Polovtsy" comes from "chaff" = straw and indicates the color of the hair. The Polovtsi were Slovenes and relatives of the Novgorodians.
        1. Molot1979
          Molot1979 19 October 2016 06: 10
          0
          This is only one of the theories that Gumilev defended. But it’s rather strange that of all the possible options, the Russians were called Polovtsy by their hair color. After all, the Russian people themselves were then distinguished by a large percentage of fair-haired people, where is the difference between their own and strangers? The Scandinavians even now are mostly blond, but didn’t our hair ancestors invoke them?
    2. ver_
      ver_ 15 March 2016 06: 40
      +2
      .. until such idiocy wanders .. Mongolia was founded in 1920 and that says it all .. The time machine does not exist .. Genghis Khan = Caesar Khan (first son) = Gaius Julius Caesar = Yuri George the Victorious - the son of Vsevolod and the grandson of Rurik Varyag Invited Trojan to rule on Russia after the defeat of Troy (the capital of the Empire) because of the crucifixion of Christ = Prince Andrei Bogolyubsky-Emperor by his own relatives for all the "good" that he did .. Illegitimly removed from office .. Rurik is the grandson of Gustamysl who ruled up to the Komnin clan: in the family were only girls and the emperor sailed to the Komnenos .. This execution led to the Crusades for the post of the Emperor .. The result - Troy was destroyed, and again the Imperial branch went from Novgorod .. Khan Gustomysl was a Novgorod citizen ..- that's why his grandson was called to Russia edit ..
      1. Darkness
        Darkness 15 March 2016 06: 55
        22
        (screaming scary)
        Doctor, where is the doctor!?!?!?
      2. nrex
        nrex 15 March 2016 08: 03
        -18 qualifying.
        Gentlemen minus, but are you confident in your knowledge of history ????
        Watch a film by Fomenko and Nosovsky, maybe your eyes will open slightly there. What you have been taught is not all true.
        1. Sweles
          Sweles 15 March 2016 08: 23
          -8
          Quote: nrex
          Gentlemen minus, but are you confident in your knowledge of history ????

          on this site, minuses do not mean that real people are behind them, an administrative resource is used here to create "public opinion", just another cutter woke up and took up his duties ...
          1. Max_Bauder
            Max_Bauder 15 March 2016 09: 48
            +9
            Another opinion about Fomenko

          2. Pomeranian
            Pomeranian 15 March 2016 10: 01
            +1
            Quote: Sveles
            on this site, minuses do not mean that real people are behind them, an administrative resource is used here to create "public opinion", just another cutter woke up and took up his duties ...

            I have nothing to do with the site administration. And I put you minus on my own as an argument. Nothing personal.
            1. Avantageur
              Avantageur 15 March 2016 12: 42
              +2
              Quote: Pomoryanin
              Quote: Sveles
              on this site, minuses do not mean that real people are behind them, an administrative resource is used here to create "public opinion", just another cutter woke up and took up his duties ...

              And I put you minus on my own as an argument.

              A good argument is that you can’t say anything.
              For me, a minus or a plus, this is just all - a mental process of medium duration, reflecting a subjective evaluative attitude to existing or possible situations.


              1. Pomeranian
                Pomeranian 15 March 2016 13: 32
                0
                Quote: Avantageur
                A good argument is that you can’t say anything.

                There is no other. Do you also refuse bonuses at work, how do you evaluate your performance?
                1. Avantageur
                  Avantageur 15 March 2016 14: 52
                  +1
                  Quote: Pomoryanin
                  Quote: Avantageur
                  A good argument is that you can’t say anything.

                  There is no other. Do you also refuse bonuses at work, how do you evaluate your performance?

                  That is, it turns out that you would, for your activity, be completely content with a plus sign instead of a prize?
                  1. Pomeranian
                    Pomeranian 15 March 2016 16: 06
                    0
                    Quote: Avantageur
                    That is, it turns out that you would, for your activity, be completely content with a plus sign instead of a prize?

                    Is this what is happening on this project, or do you think that the administration is clamping down fees for published articles?
              2. Spnsr
                Spnsr 15 March 2016 21: 31
                0
                would put a plus but
                Quote: Avantageur
                this is just all - a mental process of medium duration, reflecting a subjective value-bearing attitude to existing or possible situations.

                but said good smile
          3. Nikadonov
            Nikadonov 15 March 2016 17: 41
            -5
            Quote: Sveles
            Quote: nrex
            Gentlemen minus, but are you confident in your knowledge of history ????

            on this site, minuses do not mean that real people are behind them, an administrative resource is used here to create "public opinion", just another cutter woke up and took up his duties ...

            Stop talking nonsense! Dear Sveles, I suggest you turn on your brains and ask yourself three questions: why did this theory arise?., What does it parasitize?., And how did the "new chronology" become a global commercial project? I will try to answer you from the second question. "New chro .." parasitizes on historical flaws. Nobody denies these absurdities. Gumilyov also argued that there was no Mongol-Tatar yoke in the classical sense, but it never occurred to him to invent an alternative history and make money on it. This theory has long turned into a commercial project. Fomenko and his "disciples" have already written about 150 books. Circulations are in the millions, and you (the victim of the EG) are just the sponsor for this bunch of crooks.
            1. Oldwiser
              Oldwiser 15 March 2016 18: 10
              +2
              Quote: Nikadonov
              Already written by Fomenko and his "students" about 150 books

              And how many books (dissertations and scientific titles) were written (defended and received) by the so-called. "traditional historians"? And why did the Germans write all of Russian history (Miller and Schweitzer and others)?
            2. Oldwiser
              Oldwiser 15 March 2016 18: 10
              0
              Quote: Nikadonov
              Already written by Fomenko and his "students" about 150 books

              And how many books (dissertations and scientific titles) were written (defended and received) by the so-called. "traditional historians"? And why did the Germans write all of Russian history (Miller and Schweitzer and others)?
              1. Nikadonov
                Nikadonov 15 March 2016 18: 25
                +3
                Quote: OldWiser
                And why the whole Russian history was written by the Germans (Miller and Schweitzer and others)?

                Klyuchevsky, Solovyov, Tatishchev and others, whose story they wrote? - Zimbabwe?
                1. Oldwiser
                  Oldwiser 15 March 2016 18: 33
                  +5
                  They copied from sources that were made by the Germans in Lithuania and Poland a hundred years before them. And according to Tatishchev there are still many questions - whether the originals of his works have been preserved, or is this publishing editor Schweitzer tried (by political order of the Westerners of the Romanovs)
                2. Oldwiser
                  Oldwiser 15 March 2016 18: 33
                  0
                  They copied from sources that were made by the Germans in Lithuania and Poland a hundred years before them. And according to Tatishchev there are still many questions - whether the originals of his works have been preserved, or is this publishing editor Schweitzer tried (by political order of the Westerners of the Romanovs)
                3. Seal
                  Seal 16 March 2016 14: 31
                  +5
                  Klyuchevsky, Solovyov, Tatishchev and others.
                  (Illovaisky, Kostomarov and so on) - they did not write history. They painted with all the colors of the rainbow (Karamzin especially succeeded in this) the canvas that Innokenty Gisel gave them in his "Synopsis" (Gisel is a Prussian German who later converted to Orthodoxy).
                  The only one who really made changes to our history is Catherine II. Actually, her edits were processed by Karamzin.
                  Some got it wrong. For example, Musin-Pushkin was extremely upset that Catherine II did not react at all to his "unique find" - to "The Lay of Igor's Regiment." And the casket just opened. Having read "The Word", Catherine simply saw that this find of Musin-Pushkin contains the name of the character she personally introduced into Russian history. hi
                  And then he was counting on a decent reward lol

                  About the works of Tatishchev and Lomonosov - a big question. Most likely they were destroyed.
            3. Sweles
              Sweles 15 March 2016 18: 20
              +2
              Quote: Nikadonov
              Stop talking nonsense!


              Listen, dear, you are here once and no longer will be you, it is disgusting to answer your illiterate questions, because your existence is unconfirmed ephemeral. six posts in the past and six posts in the future, you're nobody ...
              1. Nikadonov
                Nikadonov 15 March 2016 19: 11
                +3
                Quote: Sveles
                six posts in the past and six posts in the future, you're nobody ...

                Do not look at the shoulder straps and the number of posts, but rather think about (if you have something) what they write to you in these posts. But, since you are worried about this topic, I will say that I was published on VO under a different nickname. In September 2014, I published a series of 7 articles "Angara: Triumph or Oblivion". Recently I posted on VO a series of articles "Forward to Mars", but already under a different nickname (old nickname, blocked for non-use). The first part came out, but after your comment, the article was immediately removed. Moreover, delete all posted articles from my personal account. What happened is not clear! Admins don't respond. And I recommend that you at least read the article before trolling. You were scattered there that the topic was not disclosed, etc. Naturally, it is not revealed, because it was only the first part. It's hard to guess if you haven't read this article, but immediately started banging on the keyboard, dreaming of virtual stars. By the way, normal members of the forum do not pay any attention to the "title", knowing full well how it is earned. You, a notorious troller, left the topic of conversation and turned the arrows to the "rank" and the number of posts. So, about "nobody" - you have another delirium again.
                1. Avantageur
                  Avantageur 15 March 2016 21: 02
                  -1
                  Quote: Nikadonov
                  Quote: Sveles
                  six posts in the past and six posts in the future, you're nobody ...

                  Do not look at the shoulder straps and the number of posts, but rather think about (if you have something) what they write to you in these posts. But, since you are worried about this topic, I will say that I was published on VO under a different nickname. In September 2014, I published a series of 7 articles "Angara: Triumph or Oblivion". Recently I posted on VO a series of articles "Forward to Mars", but already under a different nickname (old nickname, blocked for non-use). The first part came out, but after your comment, the article was immediately removed. Moreover, delete all posted articles from my personal account. What happened is not clear! Admins don't respond. And I recommend that you at least read the article before trolling. You were scattered there that the topic was not disclosed, etc. Naturally, it is not revealed, because it was only the first part. It's hard to guess if you haven't read this article, but immediately started banging on the keyboard, dreaming of virtual stars. By the way, normal members of the forum do not pay any attention to the "title", knowing full well how it is earned. You, a notorious troller, left the topic of conversation and turned the arrows to the "rank" and the number of posts. So, about "nobody" - you have another delirium again.

                  Anger is unrighteous, lust, greed,
                  delusion, lust, cruelty,
                  grumble, vanity, despondency, attraction, envy,
                  disgust, debauchery, the desire of another,
                  oppression, anger - these are the vices of the Children of Men,
                  people should avoid these sixteen ...

                  Pursuit of pleasures, hostility,
                  showing off his generosity, stinginess,
                  other people's oppression, lies, weakness,
                  glorification of their feelings, hatred of Lada-spouse,
                  here are the nine worst enemies of man ...


                2. Sweles
                  Sweles 15 March 2016 21: 25
                  0
                  Quote: Nikadonov
                  You, a notorious troller, left the topic of conversation and turned the arrows to the "rank" and the number of posts.


                  damn you do not even see the simple difference between the volume of posts and this virtual title, where you climb to understand historical problems. Your boorish post against Fomenko-Nosovsky says that you did not read it, but as usual you speak from other people's words. If you had previously gone into a discussion on historical topics, you should have seen people’s attitude to the key problems of Russian history, but you don’t see and will not see, so it’s better not to go here ...
        2. Captain45
          Captain45 15 March 2016 09: 22
          15
          Quote: nrex
          Watch a film by Fomenko and Nosovsky, maybe your eyes will open slightly there. What you have been taught is not all true.

          There is no god but Fomenko and his Nosovsky prophet! So what? Just what Fomenko did not come to defend his theory at a meeting of historians when he was invited?
          1. Avantageur
            Avantageur 15 March 2016 12: 49
            +4
            Quote: Captain45
            Quote: nrex
            Watch a film by Fomenko and Nosovsky, maybe your eyes will open slightly there. What you have been taught is not all true.

            Just what Fomenko did not come to defend his theory at a meeting of historians when he was invited?

            And why, "throw pearls in front of pigs"?


            1. Captain45
              Captain45 15 March 2016 13: 22
              +4
              Sorry, I'm interested, but this
              Quote: Avantageur
              And why, "throw pearls in front of pigs"?

              Your personal opinion or the opinion of Fomenko? In any case, I would be careful not to call my opponents pigs, because Fomenko didn’t come to that meeting, as the stuck kid (in your terminology) were very respected and famous scientists, historians, mathematicians and even an astronomer. And since you go to such terms, then you have to answer for the bazaar. Issued a theory-confirm. And it turns out just hollow.
              1. Avantageur
                Avantageur 15 March 2016 13: 46
                +1
                Quote: Captain45
                Sorry, I'm interested, but this
                Quote: Avantageur
                And why, "throw pearls in front of pigs"?

                Your personal opinion or the opinion of Fomenko? In any case, I would be careful not to call my opponents pigs, because Fomenko didn’t come to that meeting, as the stuck kid (in your terminology) were very respected and famous scientists, historians, mathematicians and even an astronomer. And since you go to such terms, then you have to answer for the bazaar. Issued a theory-confirm. And it turns out just hollow.

                These are here, very respected and well-known in their circles, scientists, historians, mathematicians, and even! an astronomer, they won’t accept any arguments, because if you agreed with Nosovsky and Fomenko, they would have turned out to be ordinary mediocrity, which they have been doing all their life, that is, they were picking themselves in the sandbox and counting cat poop into the new moon ...



                Quote: Captain45
                Sorry, I'm interested, but this

                Iron. to speak in vain about something or to prove something to someone who is not capable or does not want to either understand or appraise it properly

            2. Pomeranian
              Pomeranian 15 March 2016 13: 39
              0
              Quote: Avantageur
              And why, "throw pearls in front of pigs"?

              The fact is that, for example, I know where the Nosovsky-Fomenko theory came from and what it was like at the very beginning. Well, then someone decided to make some extra money on this. And away we go, but, alas, it's too late to retreat - faithful apostles will not understand.
          2. Oldwiser
            Oldwiser 15 March 2016 18: 03
            +1
            Quote: Captain45
            meeting of historians when he was invited

            The aforementioned "histories" polls consider the authors of the "new chronology" to be victims of conspiracy theory - like the West Europeans, together with the Jews, muddied the Reformation rebellion, destroyed Russia-Horde-Osmania-Atamania (formerly Mongolo-Tataria) and falsified the whole world history, inventing "antiquity" and the millennial darkness of the "Middle Ages". And there are allegedly no sources and evidence. It is possible to understand "historians" - if the "new chronology" is correct, then all the titles and scientific works of traditional "historians" are bullshit and a "commercial" project on an incommensurably large scale.
          3. Oldwiser
            Oldwiser 15 March 2016 18: 03
            0
            Quote: Captain45
            meeting of historians when he was invited

            The aforementioned "histories" polls consider the authors of the "new chronology" to be victims of conspiracy theory - like the West Europeans, together with the Jews, muddied the Reformation rebellion, destroyed Russia-Horde-Osmania-Atamania (formerly Mongolo-Tataria) and falsified the whole world history, inventing "antiquity" and the millennial darkness of the "Middle Ages". And there are allegedly no sources and evidence. It is possible to understand "historians" - if the "new chronology" is correct, then all the titles and scientific works of traditional "historians" are bullshit and a "commercial" project on an incommensurably large scale.
        3. The comment was deleted.
        4. Max_Bauder
          Max_Bauder 15 March 2016 09: 47
          +6
          about Fomenko and the new chronology

        5. Forest
          Forest 15 March 2016 09: 50
          +1
          Finger-sucked fantasy without facts?
        6. PKK
          PKK 15 March 2016 12: 55
          +1
          The engraving in the beginning is strange, the clothes are the same on both sides. Cores? Stone-throwing tools. Tell me how this tool was transported without roads, through rivers and swamps? How much does it weigh? So trust me, not the author.
          1. Oldwiser
            Oldwiser 16 March 2016 08: 39
            +1
            Quote: PKK
            how this gun was transported without roads, through rivers and swamps

            I had to assume that in the form disassembled into separate parts - the original SKD, so to speak, and before the start of the siege of the next enemy ("Varangian") fortress - assembly - commissioning and away we go ...
          2. Pomeranian
            Pomeranian 16 March 2016 14: 43
            0
            Quote: PKK
            Stone-throwing tools. Tell me how this tool was transported without roads, through rivers and swamps?

            In winter, on the ice of rivers and snow.
            1. Seal
              Seal 16 March 2016 15: 30
              -1
              And how does this fit in with this?

              CHAPTER CXLVI
              Sainfu City [Xiangfan] is described here.
              Saianfu is a noble city; twelve big and wealthy cities are subordinate
              him. Great here is trade and industry. The subjects of the great live here
              Khan, idolaters; they have paper money; they burn the dead. Silk
              there are many of them, and they weave all kinds of gilded fabrics. All sorts of things here
              a lot of. Here there is what should be in a big city.
              I will tell you, in truth, after the entire area of ​​Manga [Manzi]
              obeyed, this city did not give up for three years. Whenever an army
              the great khan came here, it stopped in the north; but from others
              sides around the city was a large and deep lake. Only from the north is the army
              the great khan could overtake the city, and on other sides by water to residents
              food was being transported. Never take the city, if this did not happen:
              three years besieged the army this city and could not take it, and it was annoying
              rati.
              Nikolay, Matvey and Marko said here: "We will think of a shell for you to master
              city. "The warriors agreed, and these words were conveyed to the great khan.
              The messengers from the army came to the great khan and report that the taxation of the city
              don’t take it, they bring food there from such and such sides and prevent it
              not allowed. And the great khan ordered to take the city at all costs. They talked
              there are two brothers and a son, Mr. Marco:
              "Great sovereign, you have masters, they make such shells that
              large stones are thrown; this city cannot stand it; cars will throw stones
              then he will surrender. "
              The great khan agreed and ordered to make those as soon as possible
              shells.
              The brothers in services were German and Nestorian Christian - good
              masters. The brothers ordered them to build two or three of these machines to throw
              stones in three hundred pounds. The craftsmen built two great cars; ordered
              the great khan took them to the army, which besieged Saianfu and could not the city
              to take. The cars came there, installed them: Tatars looked at them as a great miracle in the world. What do you say? Tired of cars and threw a stone into the city; the stone hit the house, destroys and breaks everything, made a terrible noise.
              Residents saw such an unprecedented disaster, were amazed, scared and do not know
              what to tell them and what to do. Gathered for advice, but how to escape from this
              shell, did not come up. They began to say here that if they don’t give up, that's all
              will perish; consulted, and decided to give up in every way. Sent to say
              the commander who surrenders and wants to be under the great khan. Took them
              the military leader agreed and the city surrendered. By the mercy of Nicholas, Matthew yes
              Mark came out like that, and it was a big deal. Both the city and the region are the best in
              great khan; big income to him from here.
              I told you about this city and how it was taken by those machines that
              brothers ordered to line up. Now let's leave it and talk about the city of Singui
              [Yizheng].
        7. xan
          xan 15 March 2016 15: 13
          0
          Quote: nrex
          Watch a film by Fomenko and Nosovsky, maybe your eyes will open slightly there.

          Fomenko and Nosovsky's brains can only powder those brow who cannot think logically and doubt. These two framers easily remove facts that interfere with their theory, and from other even smaller facts, the elephant is inflated. I saw their film about the Battle of Kulikovo, these two jugglers did not demonstrate anything but the shameless juggling of facts. They are populists, all their activity is not aimed at studying history, but at their own PR fame.
          1. Seal
            Seal 16 March 2016 14: 36
            +2
            And in fact, to trample mainly on foot for three or nine lands somewhere into the steppe and look for a horse army there, leaving your cities essentially defenseless - do you think there is logic?
          2. Idiot
            Idiot April 5 2016 17: 42
            0
            Ie "Khan (4)" is an honest phony and knows how to think logically. Those. 600 Mongol Tatars with 000 horses (according to official history) were able to survive in the winter of Russia. And they were also able to organize themselves into such a huge army. Let me explain: nomads, in essence, cannot live in large communities, because then they are forced to unite their herds and they will simply die of hunger. Animals need pastures, their territory will shrink with increasing livestock. Conclusion: large armies, especially cavalry (with one, two removable horses) a priori could not appear among the steppe inhabitants. For those who are especially logical, I would advise you to check how modern pastoralists live in large friendly communities, in the same Mongolia. About the Battle of Kulikovo, regarding the HYPOTHESIS (this is very important) of Nosovsky and Fomenko, either a stupid person or a conscious troll can be mocking. People are so accessible, even the clinical one will understand, - they set out their point of view, tied events to a certain area, from the point of view of toponymy, brought links to archaeological excavations in the center of Moscow, one might say, they took official historians by the ear and brought them to the Simonov Monastery. Look, study, draw conclusions !!! How did the official historical science react to this? ... I myself am a historian by education, I have a diploma, but I am not a member of the sect of official historians and am not an adherent of them. As well as I refuse to be Ivan not remembering kinship. But how were the Egyptian pyramids built and how old are they? What did archaeologists find there? Bah, these are traces of the formwork! Analysis of the cleavage of the pyramid wall was done, what is it? Is it really artificial? Conclusion: concrete was invented in the 1th century, but the ancient Egyptians invented it 200 years earlier. From a hundred-ton blocks entirely hewn and dragged by 000 slaves over 16 years (I was taught this way at school) to the construction site of the pyramids, they still built, whoever doubts is an ignoramus. Do you want Troy, now Schliemann will find ?! So what if the settlement is 5000 meters in diameter, said Troy, it means Troy! And Istanbul-Constantinople-Tsar City-Troy - this is Nosovsky and Fomenko invented. We invited them to the trial, but they did not appear. By the way, how does this trial differ from the International Tribunal in The Hague? Is there a lot of justice in The Hague? How the Egyptian hieroglyphs were read is a separate song. But they just can't read the Etruscan inscriptions. And how can an English-speaking scientist read them if they are based on the Cyrillic alphabet?
          3. Idiot
            Idiot April 5 2016 17: 42
            0
            Ie "Khan (4)" is an honest phony and knows how to think logically. Those. 600 Mongol Tatars with 000 horses (according to official history) were able to survive in the winter of Russia. And they were also able to organize themselves into such a huge army. Let me explain: nomads, in essence, cannot live in large communities, because then they are forced to unite their herds and they will simply die of hunger. Animals need pastures, their territory will shrink with increasing livestock. Conclusion: large armies, especially cavalry (with one, two removable horses) a priori could not appear among the steppe inhabitants. For those who are especially logical, I would advise you to check how modern pastoralists live in large friendly communities, in the same Mongolia. About the Battle of Kulikovo, regarding the HYPOTHESIS (this is very important) of Nosovsky and Fomenko, either a stupid person or a conscious troll can be mocking. People are so accessible, even the clinical one will understand, - they set out their point of view, tied events to a certain area, from the point of view of toponymy, brought links to archaeological excavations in the center of Moscow, one might say, they took official historians by the ear and brought them to the Simonov Monastery. Look, study, draw conclusions !!! How did the official historical science react to this? ... I myself am a historian by education, I have a diploma, but I am not a member of the sect of official historians and am not an adherent of them. As well as I refuse to be Ivan not remembering kinship. But how were the Egyptian pyramids built and how old are they? What did archaeologists find there? Bah, these are traces of the formwork! Analysis of the cleavage of the pyramid wall was done, what is it? Is it really artificial? Conclusion: concrete was invented in the 1th century, but the ancient Egyptians invented it 200 years earlier. From a hundred-ton blocks entirely hewn and dragged by 000 slaves over 16 years (I was taught this way at school) to the construction site of the pyramids, they still built, whoever doubts is an ignoramus. Do you want Troy, now Schliemann will find ?! So what if the settlement is 5000 meters in diameter, said Troy, it means Troy! And Istanbul-Constantinople-Tsar City-Troy - this is Nosovsky and Fomenko invented. We invited them to the trial, but they did not appear. By the way, how does this trial differ from the International Tribunal in The Hague? Is there a lot of justice in The Hague? How the Egyptian hieroglyphs were read is a separate song. But they just can't read the Etruscan inscriptions. And how can an English-speaking scientist read them if they are based on the Cyrillic alphabet?
        8. activator
          activator 15 March 2016 15: 41
          +1
          Quote: nrex
          Gentlemen minus, but are you confident in your knowledge of history ????
          Watch a film by Fomenko and Nosovsky, maybe your eyes will open slightly there. What you have been taught is not all true.

          It’s unclear what happened 50-60 years ago, but in the Khrushchev-Stalin disputes who is good who is bad for opponents ’saliva flew from the monitor and the official version changed three times. But what was 1500-1000 years ago they know as if they were personally present. for some reason, no one can even hypothetically imagine that the whole interpretation of events could have changed. And there were always plenty of people interested in such a substitution.
        9. KaPToC
          KaPToC 15 March 2016 21: 18
          +2
          Learn story from movies? My friend, we still have not forgotten how to read. Unlike you, we read Fomenko and Nosovsky. Firstly, Fomenko separately, and Nosovsky separately. Secondly, if history is a lie (and it is false), this does not mean that Fomenko’s inventions are true, no one has canceled critical thinking.
          1. aleksey980
            aleksey980 16 March 2016 02: 14
            +2
            Quote: KaPToC
            Secondly, if history is a lie (and it is false), this does not mean that Fomenko’s inventions are true, no one has canceled critical thinking.

            A plus!
            The fact that history is always written for those who dictate it is a fact, it is enough to take a look at our present, and what can we say about the past.
            One cannot exclude the "OBS telegraph", on the basis of which some "official" events were written and are being written. So, for example, the number of victims of the Stalinist regime magically increased to 60 million innocently killed (although some "bream" slightly reduce lol ). So it is about the Mongols, from what is reflected in the article, for example, about thousands of ballists, hundreds of catapults, etc. For example, right there on the knee, as a version: they bungled several pieces from the trees cut down at the place, then, in the descriptions, they rounded them up, and the surviving besieged with big eyes told-Oh-oh, stones fell on us "like hail", sent by the bassoons, oh, and there must be a lot of these shaitan-machines there, how can we stand here, they shot at us in thousands of dusty days ... help people, don't leave a cripple, file"Well, then the numbers are by leaps and bounds.
            And how the "OBS telegraph" works, an example is simpler on its own skin: being still a schoolboy (exactly 11th grade) I go home one summer (to my grandmother) in the village, after midnight, and on that day I was completely sober. The road had not yet been repaired, and after the rain it was slippery and in the weak light of an incomplete moon you had to look out where you put your feet. He slipped, fell on the curls, got up, dusted off his hands and walked on. The next day my mother complains, they say, why the hell did you go home drunk yesterday? ))) Or, for example, my brother froze a little on his legs in the army and went to the hospital, so in the village he was already "painted" with a disability group, like now a "wheelchair user", as his legs were almost cut off in the balls laughing
            And such a mass.
            P.S. The only thing I would like to clarify is a lie in history, yet an outright lie to write also rarely makes sense, events and facts are most likely interpreted in someone's interests, such as events in Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Algeria, Libya, etc. d. etc. only in modern times, and in the entire recorded history of mankind how many interpretations, most likely, were ...
          2. Idiot
            Idiot April 5 2016 17: 51
            0
            KARTOS: offer your version of the story, true.
        10. Seal
          Seal 16 March 2016 14: 22
          +3
          Yes, they will not open. The works of Fins can be studied only after sufficient historical insight. Otherwise, the brains will go, because there they ponah..vert. We must be able to clearly distinguish between fiNamy’s criticism of the traditional version of history (for which they have a huge plus) and attempts to reconstruct history (for them it is a minus).
        11. Molot1979
          Molot1979 19 October 2016 06: 13
          -1
          I am a certified historian and affirm that Nosovsky and Fomenko are two freaks, and the one who reads them, looks and believes, is simple. And an ignoramus. Urgently back to school, from the fifth grade.
      3. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre 15 March 2016 09: 32
        +3
        Orderly !!! Where is the orderly ?! Urgently to the ward. The patient has an exacerbation.
      4. Forest
        Forest 15 March 2016 09: 48
        +5
        Stop using hard drugs, they are harmful to mental health.
      5. V.ic
        V.ic 15 March 2016 10: 25
        0
        Quote: ver_
        Gustamysl’s grandson ... Khan Gustomysl was a Novgorodian

        In Kiev, the Khakan-Kagan "sat", in the New City - never. Look at how the sources spell out the nickname of the leader of the Novgorodians, "who called the Varangians."
      6. Starshina wmf
        Starshina wmf 15 March 2016 11: 00
        +1
        Well and nonsense. With a mental hospital or what?
      7. PKK
        PKK 15 March 2016 13: 28
        +2
        I support. Kharosh is already telling tales like a horde, a Mongol-Tatra yoke, to tell adults. It rolled when we were scoops. Now excuse me, such nonsense does not roll.
      8. KaPToC
        KaPToC 15 March 2016 21: 14
        0
        Of all your posts, the truth is only the date of the founding of Mongolia.
      9. mister-red
        mister-red 15 August 2020 21: 51
        0
        Damn, there are not even words to answer something. It is necessary to litter the brains so-so. Excellent.
    3. Sweles
      Sweles 15 March 2016 07: 33
      -17 qualifying.
      it’s disgusting to read all this, as if there were no works by Fomenko and other researchers, as if everything that was said on this forum for 4 years on TMI is all screwed up and regular top-level "historians" are still bending their line-Tatar-Mongoliango - "it was, is and will be "...
      1. Nikadonov
        Nikadonov 15 March 2016 17: 01
        0
        Quote: Sveles
        disgusted to read all this, as if there were no works by Fomenko

        The value of the "works" of the mathematician Fomenko is about the same as the "value" of your posts. If Fomenko is your idol, then consider this a compliment.
        1. Oldwiser
          Oldwiser 15 March 2016 18: 08
          0
          But indeed, the whole story is a repeated rehash of the same set of plots - the difference is only in the dating and geographical location, which was floating before the era of printing.
          1. aleksey980
            aleksey980 16 March 2016 02: 42
            +1
            Quote: OldWiser
            But indeed, the whole story is a repeated rehash of the same set of plots - the difference is only in the dating and geographical location, which was floating before the era of printing.

            How many "color revolutions" were there? In a thousand or two years, it will be possible to say that all countries, regimes and rulers are "cloned". And if you consider that the "Arab springs" under the same sauce ... a conspiracy request

            P.S. I do not presume to give an assessment to the same Fomenko and Co. ... there is a reasonable one, but they are too carried away by the search for a conspiracy, instead of facts. In addition, one of the main blocks in the foundation of chronology was knocked out by the author of the theory to which they refer (Robert Newton), revealing inaccuracies in his own calculations and conclusions.
        2. Oldwiser
          Oldwiser 15 March 2016 18: 08
          0
          But indeed, the whole story is a repeated rehash of the same set of plots - the difference is only in the dating and geographical location, which was floating before the era of printing.
        3. Sweles
          Sweles 15 March 2016 18: 14
          0
          Quote: Nikadonov
          The value of the "works" of the mathematician Fomenko is about the same as the "value" of your posts. If Fomenko is your idol, then consider this a compliment.


          your existence is as "valuable" as a post before deletion, three words per line is your limit ...
          1. Nikadonov
            Nikadonov 15 March 2016 19: 34
            0
            Quote: Sveles
            three words per line is your limit ...

            Again, another nonsense. See the post above.
      2. nrex
        nrex 15 March 2016 18: 36
        0
        The fact is that the "New Chronology" is not primarily supported by the Russian Orthodox Church. destroys all their temporary dogmas. She is uncomfortable and powerful. since any disturbance is harmful to the control of the masses. How long ago did the people come to their senses and began to return to God, but before that, how many generations grew up on the ideas of atheism? And with open mouths they listened to nonsense from the high stands like "there can be no sex in our country." Everyone is now touched by the Soviet power, but on this occasion I recommend rereading "Heart of a Dog" where Bulgakov described the essence of this phenomenon in very soft colors. But Klim Zhukov, deliberately flirting and in an offensive manner, portrays the all-knowing chronicler who has lived in all centuries. Many people don't remember here. what they ate for breakfast yesterday, and they begin to talk about what happened 2000 years ago. "New history" is just an attempt to convey to the masses that official history is not a dogma.
    4. Max_Bauder
      Max_Bauder 15 March 2016 09: 44
      +3
      about the Mongol-Tatar yoke, who are not in the know, found the place of the Battle of Kulikovo, archaeologist Oleg Dvurechensky.

    5. Vend
      Vend 15 March 2016 09: 53
      +4
      Quote: Igor39
      New historical trends ...
      Yes, these are not new trends. Everyone is trying to destroy the memory of Russian resistance during the invasion of the Horde.
      The Polovtsians were one of the first to take the blows of the next wave of Scythian-Siberian Rus, which, according to Western tradition, is usually called the "Tatar-Mongols."
      Yeah, you can’t stop the rushing fantasy laughing The horde of Genghis Khan or Batu is not only an alloy of the Mongol tribes. This is the Horde consisting of conquered peoples, ruled by the heirs of Genghis Khan.
    6. Sweles
      Sweles 15 March 2016 11: 42
      0


      Tatar-Mongol yoke...
    7. xtur
      xtur 15 March 2016 12: 17
      0
      > New historical trends.

      In the same way that the Polovtsy were made Turks, the Urartians were invented in Asia Minor and Armenia.

      Such unreasonable peoples are not so rare

      In our century, when even the remains of Egyptian pharaohs are subjected to genetic research, it is a shame not to conduct such research for all doubtful languages ​​and peoples.
    8. Avantageur
      Avantageur 15 March 2016 12: 27
      -3
      Quote: Igor39
      New historical trends ...

      Everything new is well forgotten old.


    9. Nikadonov
      Nikadonov 15 March 2016 16: 44
      +2
      Quote: Igor39
      New historical trends ...

      There is nothing new here. Take the Polovtsians, for example. The author, speaking about their Europoid origin, presents this as a sensation. Although, it has long been known (Soviet history did not deny this) that the word "Polovets" comes from the root word "sex", that is - STRAW. In conjunction with other studies (for example, excavations of the Polovtsian barrows), it was argued with a high degree of probability that the Polovtsians were fair-haired, with a European type of face.
      Quote: Mera Joota

      Well, while Alexander did not say anything new, except that he cited theories about the origin of the Polovtsy ...
    10. vezunchik
      vezunchik 15 March 2016 17: 33
      0
      we also have Chinese goods in the trash. so this does not mean that we are their direct descendants
    11. siberalt
      siberalt 16 March 2016 03: 50
      +2
      Hmm! If the "Mongols" had videoconferencing, they would have conquered the whole world in a couple of months laughing True, after that they forgot not only writing, but also how to build a state. And then they turned into nomads, right up to the 20th century and fled to one point. But how this could happen, no scientist can explain.
      1. Molot1979
        Molot1979 19 October 2016 06: 26
        -1
        You cannot explain this, because history is a dark forest for you. In reality, everything was not simple, but very simple. After the conquest of half of the world, the question arose, and who and where will rule this. There were two opinions. Kit-Buga-noyon believed that since it all began in Mongolia, then the Mongols from Karakorum should rule. Khubilai, who was sitting in China, said, "But crap, since I am in China, then we will rule from here. And you Mongols are ordinary subjects and there is nothing here!" The war began and Kit-Buga lost. So the Mongols ceased to be a privileged minority. Then, in 1368, the Chinese trampled the Mongol Yuan dynasty. The national Ming dynasty came to power. The Mints are not a flock to wait until a fresh Chinggis comes from the banks of the Onon and themselves went to visit the Mongols. As a result, at the beginning of the 15th century, the Chinese army of the Mongols fought and wiped out Karakorum from the face of the Earth. The Chinese could not really hold the territory, as a result, in the 18th century, several independent khanates existed in Mongolia. However, in the middle of the 18th century, the Qing dynasty began the final solution to the northern issue and literally wiped off part of the Mongols into powder, this was a real genocide of all living things, regardless of age and gender. This time, the Chinese occupied Mongolia rather tightly, which until the beginning of the 20th century became their vassal, and everything there changed so much that Buddhist monasteries took the main power instead of khans. And only the revolution and civil war in China itself gave the Mongols a chance to found modern Mongolia.
    12. JACTUS RECTUS
      JACTUS RECTUS 16 March 2016 04: 01
      +2
      I’m still waiting for the tartaria record to be started.
      Tales about the great Slavs who arrived from Jupiter replace any humorous programs.
  2. ovod84
    ovod84 15 March 2016 06: 03
    +5
    From the article it became clear to me that the Polovtsy were strong warriors no worse than the Mongols, who at a difficult moment threw their Alans allies and then when the Mongols took away from them everything that had been given to them as a bribe, they fled to the Russians. In the battle of Kalka, these powerful warriors again collapsed and allowed the Mongols to defeat the Russians. That's just funny.
    1. ver_
      ver_ 15 March 2016 06: 54
      -11 qualifying.
      ..on Kalka there was an inter-quarrel between relatives: Khan Mamay, uncle Dmitry Donky and Dmitry Donskoy- Khan Tokhtamysh .. for power in Mogolia = Great then called Russia .. Mogolia and Mongolia - two big differences .. Mongolia before its formation in 1920 the year still took 7 centuries .. The army in Russia was called the Horde = Military Order .. The official history of Russia was written by the Germans by order of Tsar Peter ..
      1. Forest
        Forest 15 March 2016 09: 52
        +4
        And they rewrote the sources of Europe, changing the radiation background in order to change the age of the documents, they rewrote the Chinese, Japanese. Cool Germans at Peter were.
        1. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian 15 March 2016 10: 21
          +1
          Quote: Forest
          changing the radiation background in order to change the age of the documents, they rewrote the Chinese, Japanese.

          The only fake that "Peter's Germans" succeeded in was Veles's book ...
          1. Sweles
            Sweles 15 March 2016 11: 40
            -1
            Quote: Pomoryanin
            The only fake that "Peter's Germans" succeeded in was Veles's book ...


            hold minus dude, earned nothing personal ...
            1. Pomeranian
              Pomeranian 15 March 2016 11: 42
              +4
              Quote: Sveles
              hold minus dude, earned nothing personal.

              Thank you. A reference to you, you love them. http://arzamas.academy/materials/152
              Or is everything that is not prescribed by Dr. Nosovsky and the psychiatrist Fomenko quackery?
              1. Sweles
                Sweles 15 March 2016 11: 46
                -4
                Quote: Pomoryanin
                asibki. A reference to you, you love them. http://arzamas.academy/materials/152
                Or is everything that is not prescribed by Dr. Nosovsky and the psychiatrist Fomenko quackery?


                minus not for the book of Veles, but for the untied tone ...
                1. Pomeranian
                  Pomeranian 15 March 2016 11: 51
                  +2
                  Quote: Sveles
                  minus not for the book of Veles, but for the untied tone ...

                  Yes, in general, do not care.
              2. activator
                activator 15 March 2016 19: 00
                +2
                Quote: Pomoryanin
                Quote: Sveles
                hold minus dude, earned nothing personal.

                Thank you. A reference to you, you love them. http://arzamas.academy/materials/152
                Or is everything that is not prescribed by Dr. Nosovsky and the psychiatrist Fomenko quackery?

                Actually, the work you indicated below the plinth is more observational than debunking. The same Vedas give quite reasonable explanations about the structure of the world, unlike the Bible. About the language, too, not everything is clear. This fresco, for example, dates from the third century, is made in Rome, which is interesting in the inscriptions in modern Russian. If you open it in a new tab. And probably you need to read the works of Fomenko.
                1. Oldwiser
                  Oldwiser 15 March 2016 19: 16
                  +1
                  Quote: activator
                  And probably you need to read the works of Fomenko

                  They also have enough passages, which
                  "we have not considered this issue in detail yet"
                  и
                  "the above linguistic considerations can in no way be considered evidence"

                  But the fact that in traditional chronology there are too many repetitions / duplicates is obvious.
                  It is clear that we need methods of objective scientific dating of sources, independent of the "already dated" objects of material culture and opportunistic political considerations.
                2. Oldwiser
                  Oldwiser 15 March 2016 19: 16
                  0
                  Quote: activator
                  And probably you need to read the works of Fomenko

                  They also have enough passages, which
                  "we have not considered this issue in detail yet"
                  и
                  "the above linguistic considerations can in no way be considered evidence"

                  But the fact that in traditional chronology there are too many repetitions / duplicates is obvious.
                  It is clear that we need methods of objective scientific dating of sources, independent of the "already dated" objects of material culture and opportunistic political considerations.
                  1. Molot1979
                    Molot1979 19 October 2016 06: 34
                    0
                    Yes, events are repeated. Just as 10 thousand years ago, Vasya, noting that he had restrained himself, was going to rob Petya, so it is today. The repeatability of the plot is programmed by the invariability of the initial conditions. In literature, it’s even better - in the whole history there are, it seems, 18 main subjects around which all the books of the Earth revolve.
                3. Pomeranian
                  Pomeranian 16 March 2016 09: 37
                  -1
                  Quote: activator
                  And probably you need to read the works of Fomenko.

                  I read, read, almost in handwritten form, the epoch-making work of these teachers. Again, I know the background and history of the appearance of the "New Chronology", therefore, one should not waste time on "scientific" disputes on this topic. According to the inscriptions, I will say one thing: either a late fake, or an outright fake. Have you personally seen this mural? In continuation of the topic, I will tell you a real case. Morons-tourists knocked out on the stone island of Spruce, that on Kanozero, the image of the shell of the nautilus mollusk right on the petroglyphs of the 3rd century BC. They were found well now, and not 100 years later, otherwise the next experimenters on the students developed the theory that the Russians sailed to the southern seas. Otherwise, the shell was painted, if not from the original? And by reference - this is one of the few, written in a simple language accessible to all. I also think that Veles's book is a fake.
                  1. nrex
                    nrex 16 March 2016 10: 48
                    -1
                    http://chudinov.ru/russkie-nadpisi-iii-veka-na-izobrazheniyah-hristianskih-svyat
                    yih /
                    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Чудинов,_Валерий_Алексеевич
                4. nrex
                  nrex 16 March 2016 10: 22
                  0
                  So what. then not many "historians" from our forum rushed to refute the obvious.
                  Maybe I blaspheme a little, but I want to say "DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY DO". What is THEIR knowledge? Yes, this is the opinion of another person, but all people look at this world in different ways and retell the story in their own way. There is a saying for a reason. it is worth farting on one side of the village, and on the other, they say, he was fucked up. The principle of a damaged phone has not been canceled, and over thousands of years a whole story of love and hate can grow to one bunch.
                  For rejecting another opinion I close the TRUTH from myself, and it is TRUE.
          2. Vend
            Vend 15 March 2016 17: 21
            +4
            Quote: Pomoryanin
            Quote: Forest
            changing the radiation background in order to change the age of the documents, they rewrote the Chinese, Japanese.

            The only fake that "Peter's Germans" succeeded in was Veles's book ...

            The only fake, as you put it, was successful for the Germans of Peter the Great by Norman theory. Still cling to her. So far, the Normanists have not found anything new, in support of their theory. The Slavists found so much evidence that it was possible to save the Norman theory for a long time. If they don’t write off, then someone needs it.
            1. Oldwiser
              Oldwiser 15 March 2016 18: 16
              +1
              Quote: Wend
              If they don’t write off, then someone needs it

              Naturally - Western Europeans Promote the Idologue of
              "the eternal barbarism and backwardness of the Slavs in general and the Russian bear in particular"
            2. Pomeranian
              Pomeranian 16 March 2016 09: 30
              0
              Quote: Wend
              The only fake, as you put it, was successful for the Germans of Peter the Great by Norman theory.

              And with this I am not going to argue, you are right. And before the arrival of Rurik "with his faithful squad," something similar to a state formation in the territory of Southern Russia already existed. I'm not sure about the northern one.
        2. Corsair
          Corsair 15 March 2016 10: 51
          +2
          Quote: Forest
          And they rewrote the sources of Europe, changing the radiation background in order to change the age of the documents, they rewrote the Chinese, Japanese. Cool Germans at Peter were.

          what And who saw Chinese and Japanese documents of the 11-12th century? Yes, and Europeans in those days didn’t go around much, and writing history on the gossip of merchants and ballads is certainly very accurate and true, while kings and other rulers could not provide all the information even to their own historians.
          Most historians try to adhere to officially accepted versions, because radically different versions immediately provoke all sorts of refutations and are simply not allowed to print in normal publications, with the exception of some Fomenko and others, but as you can see they are also often laughed at and humiliated.
          1. Seal
            Seal 16 March 2016 14: 41
            +2
            Most historians try to stick to officially accepted versions, because
            that the entire historical clearing from which they all feed has long been "honestly" divided. And for a long time, each historian has been cultivating and fertilizing only the garden that belongs to his teacher. Well, in the century before last, some still managed to create their own beds - for example, hitherto unknown "Hittites" were introduced into history. But now in the "historical world" everything has already settled down. And he, this "historical world" does not like very much when he begins to be agitated.
          2. Molot1979
            Molot1979 19 October 2016 06: 36
            0
            "Who saw"? Well, historians from all over the world have seen, and? Have you seen South Africa? Not? What if it's a fake and no South Africa exists at all?
        3. Pissarro
          Pissarro 15 March 2016 12: 39
          +1
          Even the Arabs copied and the Persians, very cool laughing
        4. Spnsr
          Spnsr 15 March 2016 14: 29
          -3
          Quote: Forest
          And they rewrote the sources of Europe, changing the radiation background in order to change the age of the documents, they rewrote the Chinese, Japanese. Cool Germans at Peter were.

          why do you think that the situation as with the history of Russia, they could not do with other stories too? especially in view of the fact that in the 18-19 centuries they led a wide expansion to the East, these are India, China, Japan, Egypt, and Persia at that time?!? ...
          1. Molot1979
            Molot1979 19 October 2016 06: 40
            0
            Uncle, can you imagine the amount of work? It’s just like with ordinary historians whom you don’t believe. Those still think that the ancient Egyptians built the pyramid of Cheops in 20 years. Put 2,3 ml of 2-ton blocks. That gives us 315 blocks per day. You can’t put so much with modern technicians a day, but they somehow managed with their bare hands ... The amount of falsifications, of course, will be less, but not by much.
      2. ILDM1986
        ILDM1986 15 March 2016 10: 15
        0
        Naturally what the Germans wrote, there were no historians, academies of sciences, institutes, etc. and the Germans had it all, there was a single view, an understanding of historical processes, a methodology of cognition. yes, maybe they didn’t fully understand Russian specifics, had a biased attitude, incorrectly interpreted some facts, but there was nobody better than them!
        1. Spnsr
          Spnsr 15 March 2016 20: 40
          0
          You want humor, just two decades ago, they wrote history to us on grants from Soros ...
          and academies were historians, but grants! ...
          but about historians it’s on purpose, so that they feel their inferiority ...
          after the troubles it was the same as under Stalin and Putin ...
          and Peter 1 did not tear barbarism from its clutches, it was just then that it was also at the beginning of the last century and at the end of the last beginning
      3. Starshina wmf
        Starshina wmf 15 March 2016 11: 04
        +7
        And who wrote the official history of China, India, and other Asian countries? Swedes?
        1. KaPToC
          KaPToC 15 March 2016 21: 57
          +1
          Hu from the official story? It is a myth. History is the sharpest instrument of propaganda, and not science at all, as you apparently thought.
        2. Seal
          Seal 16 March 2016 15: 36
          +4
          World history textbooks from where did they bring them to China, India, Indochina? From Europe !! The official history of China was most likely created in a Jesuit mission in China.
  3. Nikolay71
    Nikolay71 15 March 2016 06: 13
    18
    On this topic, I somehow trust Lev Gumilyov more.
    1. guzik007
      guzik007 15 March 2016 10: 47
      +5
      On this topic, I somehow trust Lev Gumilyov more.
      -------------------------------------------------- -
      I join: =)
    2. Oldwiser
      Oldwiser 16 March 2016 09: 01
      -1
      However, everything is dull with this Gumilev's "passionarity" - it is latently accumulating and accumulating, and then it "explodes" and "dissipates" (like energy into entropy), then it starts accumulating again (but into another super-duper ethnos). Again - what to do with duplicate "event streams"? Statistics, although a lie, but the thing is as stubborn as the facts.
    3. Oldwiser
      Oldwiser 16 March 2016 09: 01
      0
      However, everything is dull with this Gumilev's "passionarity" - it is latently accumulating and accumulating, and then it "explodes" and "dissipates" (like energy into entropy), then it starts accumulating again (but into another super-duper ethnos). Again - what to do with duplicate "event streams"? Statistics, although a lie, but the thing is as stubborn as the facts.
  4. Homo
    Homo 15 March 2016 06: 43
    +8
    The further from the event, the more "historians" appear with the "correct" interpretation. You might think they have a time machine. winked
    1. Per se.
      Per se. 15 March 2016 07: 22
      12
      They had "tolerance", not a time machine. This, as in the States, there are no blacks (offensive name), there are "African Americans", here - there was no invasion. Recently they brought to read the creation of Violetta Basha "There was no Tatar-Mongol invasion", our Tatars were very pleased, and in general, as there Vysotsky sang, "Only Russians are in their kin, great-grandfather was Samarin" ... By the way, in Turkey, in the city Shogut, there is a monument to Khan Byty, the Turks, who in hordes entered Byzantium, cut the Balkans, this image is close. Maybe there was no Turkish invasion of Europe, why would the Turks still offend? ...
      1. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre 15 March 2016 09: 36
        +9
        Also say that this bust is not just a portrait, but a self-portrait of Batu Khan.
        fool
        1. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre 15 March 2016 09: 49
          +6
          So you promoted, but did not answer my post.
          Is this a lifetime portrait? - NO
          Or a portrait made from the skull of Batu Khan according to the method of Gerasimov? - NO


          In what year was this bust made?
          What does its author have to do with historical science or anthropology?
          Not a single answer ...
          1. Per se.
            Per se. 15 March 2016 10: 22
            +2
            Quote: abrakadabre
            So you promoted, but did not answer my post.
            Valery, if your question is for me, then, firstly, the minus was not from me, I do not put minuses for the opinion (if only for outright rudeness), and secondly, according to the bust of Batu, address the question to the Turks. From myself I can only say that many historical portraits and sculptures were created according to verbal descriptions, or even purely according to the imaginations of artists and sculptors. Who saw Christ? Nevertheless, in Rio de Janeiro there is a grandiose statue of Christ the Redeemer, because such authenticity, probably, does not bother you.
            1. abrakadabre
              abrakadabre 16 March 2016 10: 49
              0
              So the Catholics do not claim that the statue from Rio is a lifetime portrait with photographic accuracy. But with this bust, our homegrown obsessed with Tartaria rush, as with the true last resort. And almost treatises write about the Russianness of the Mongols.
      2. guzik007
        guzik007 15 March 2016 10: 52
        +2
        Maybe there was no Turkish invasion of Europe, why should the Turks still be offended? ...
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Just do not confuse the pzhalst of the Seljuk Turks and the Ottoman Turks. These are two big differences in both origin and time spread. By the way, the Ottoman Turks have nothing to do with Batu, even if they don’t attach themselves. And this also applies to the Seljuks (although they do not pretend, because they have long been gone in nature-cut-out, without exception)
        1. Bashibuzuk
          Bashibuzuk 15 March 2016 11: 45
          12
          Bro, you carefully looked at this picture?
          There were no troubles with dates, huh?
          Look ...

          http://i.ytimg.com/vi/lYMRWX2_x8A/maxresdefault.jpg

          1. Pissarro
            Pissarro 15 March 2016 12: 42
            +4
            275 years old uncle lived out laughing wassat
            1. Bashibuzuk
              Bashibuzuk 15 March 2016 12: 54
              +1
              So it turns out that Batu Khan ... and the Oltyn Orda Devleti ...
              .
              This is actually a statement - Oltin Horde - Golden Horde, Devleti - State ..
              those. the state of the Golden Horde existed from 1227 to 1502.
              wassat Haha ... even before the defeat of Bulgaria, it came out organized in the interval between Khorezm and beyond.
              Strange, how be ....
              Next - Batu HAN - well, you have to understand that it was the Supreme Ruler.
              TITLE ruler, simply put.
              angry Again, misunderstandings ... But what was the name of the real person whom we know as Batu, Batu Khan?
              .
              Oh, history ..... and historians ...
              .
              Now let's take and find out what could happen in 1227.
              In Russia, for example.
              We hammer in a search engine ... and the very first link Wiki gives us an interesting picture.
              Prince Yaroslav Vsevolodovich (you know one) made a LARGE campaign on him.
              Sweden and the Finns were smashed, in short. A major trip, well, a very large one.
              So much so that Honorius Pope Honorius III - Demanded from the kings of Russia subject to the Roman throne.
              Hedgehog it is clear that there was a refusal.
              No brainer that sanctions followed.
              ....
              And now - QUESTION ... what were the sanctions?
              And from whom?
              So, maybe Morozov is right after all?
              .
              And reality says that the sudden emergence of the Golden Horde was buried ... by the gonorrheal Honorius and other idiots.
              There was a hike to the "last sea", where dad almost didn't bother.
              .
              And happiness was so possible ...
              1. KaPToC
                KaPToC 15 March 2016 22: 03
                -2
                A strange coincidence, but Batuhan in Latin reads like BaTuKaH, perhaps this invasion hides another campaign of Europe against the Russians? After all, there was a Golden Order in Europe, which tried to gain a foothold in the territory of the Slavs.
                1. Spnsr
                  Spnsr 15 March 2016 22: 13
                  +2
                  Quote: KaPToC
                  A strange coincidence, but Batuhan in Latin reads like BaTuKaH, perhaps this invasion hides another campaign of Europe against the Russians? After all, there was a Golden Order in Europe, which tried to gain a foothold in the territory of the Slavs.

                  or the Vatican established the Vatican laughing and the Order of the Golden Horde is the Golden Horde! and it was founded on the territory of the rebellious and now with its homosexual marriages of the White Horde laughing
          2. Oldwiser
            Oldwiser 15 March 2016 18: 23
            0
            1502 - 1227 = 275 years. Fine, Konstantin! Batu is Duncan McLoud's uncle laughing
          3. Oldwiser
            Oldwiser 15 March 2016 18: 23
            0
            1502 - 1227 = 275 years. Fine, Konstantin! Batu is Duncan McLoud's uncle laughing
        2. Molot1979
          Molot1979 19 October 2016 06: 45
          0
          Apart from the fact that historically both the Ottomans and Seljuks are Turks, and that the Ottomans themselves adhered to the exact opposite point of view. However. history is also certain that they are direct relatives. Like a grandfather and grandson. That originally Osman and Ertogrul were descendants of the former Seljuk clans who settled in Asia Minor under One of the local Kay-Kavus. And they left the former habitats because they were Mongols.
      3. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 15 March 2016 17: 57
        +1
        = Per se. "There is a monument to Khan Bytyu."
        And he has a life date or a reign date?))) However, it doesn’t matter ...))) but the date is important))) 1227-1502 !!!!))))
        Do the Turks with the numbers sucks?)))
        1. Alisher
          Alisher 15 March 2016 20: 44
          +1
          And not only with numbers ....
          In Istanbul, in the museum complex of the Khan's Palace, a map of the Ottoman Empire hangs on the wall. Guess which country is indicated northeast of Crimea, over the Black Sea steppes?
          Ukraine - no, it was not then.
          Russia - no, it’s not convenient in front of Ukraine. And not the Russian Empire.
          They have the inscription - USSR (USSR). lol
          And since both Ukraine and Russia (RSFSR) were part of the USSR, it even turned out politically correct.
      4. Seal
        Seal 16 March 2016 14: 44
        +1
        the Turks that hordes entered Byzantium, cut the Balkans
        Excuse me, what kind of Turks are you talking about?
        The whole trouble of the Greeks turned out to be that they in 1261 managed to accidentally regain Constantinople. After the capture of Constantinople (or, as the Greeks called it long before the Turks - Istimboli) by the Latins, the Greeks managed to create several states. The strongest of which was the peasant (without big cities) Nicaean Empire. The Nicene Empire was strong and most importantly, a self-sufficient, prosperous state. And therefore, it had, though not a very large, but strong army, consisting of people who had something to defend.
        But as soon as the Greeks accidentally occupied Constantinople in 1261, everything went awry. The capital was declared this huge parasite city. The bureaucratic apparatus of the former Nicene Empire, which became the Empire of the Paleologists, with the move to Constantinople, has grown tenfold. Paleologists sharply increased taxes on peasants and artisans. Those began to go broke. Accordingly, this instantly affected the army. The paleologists did not already have that mass of strong free peasants who made up the army of the Nicene Empire from the times of Vatac and Laskaris. Therefore, the Paleologists reoriented themselves to mercenaries, which again needed money. Taxes grew. But there was still not enough money.
        Therefore, the Paleologists, as a fee, began to let their mercenaries, who were the Ottomans, into the territory that had already become not very necessary to the Paleologists, the Nicene Empire. The Ottomans organized their government there, which was economically more profitable for the peasants and artisans than the management of the bureaucratic Constantinople. And the inhabitants of the former Nicene Empire began to massively convert to Islam. That is, they became Turks. Moreover, those areas of the former Nicene Empire, which were still controlled from Constantinople, also sought to go under the Turks.
        Alas, that was the reason for the success of the Ottomans.
      5. Seal
        Seal 16 March 2016 14: 48
        +2
        Remove the turban from Batu Khan (Batu Khan is just the Western Khan or the Khan of the West), put chain mail and helmet on it, put on a horse and ...
      6. ver_
        ver_ 18 August 2018 01: 03
        0
        ... Turks - * feral Russians * ...
    2. Vend
      Vend 15 March 2016 18: 30
      0
      Quote: Homo
      The further from the event, the more "historians" appear with the "correct" interpretation. You might think they have a time machine. winked

      The time machine did not appear, but new archaeological research, "new" chronographs, new research methods, and the opportunity to tell a wide range of people about their research appeared. For example, do you know that the Lombards fought with the Slavs? Meanwhile, this is written about in the "History of the Lombards". But they haven't written about this before. And a lot of such facts have been found.
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 16 March 2016 15: 51
        +2
        Quote: Wend
        For example, do you know that the Lombards fought with the Slavs? Meanwhile, this is written about in the "History of the Lombards". But they haven't written about it before. And a lot of such facts have been found.

        I’m so ... for a laugh - you know, don't know .....
        Croats with Serbs came to the lands of the Lombards during the period of the resettlement of the Slavs from the middle reaches of the Danube under the pressure of the Avars .....
        1. Vend
          Vend 16 March 2016 18: 39
          0
          Quote: stalkerwalker
          Quote: Wend
          For example, do you know that the Lombards fought with the Slavs? Meanwhile, this is written about in the "History of the Lombards". But they haven't written about it before. And a lot of such facts have been found.

          I’m so ... for a laugh - you know, don't know .....
          Croats with Serbs came to the lands of the Lombards during the period of the resettlement of the Slavs from the middle reaches of the Danube under the pressure of the Avars .....

          I am not talking about that. And that mention in the "History of the Lombards", which says that the fleet of the Slavs attacked the Lombards.
    3. Seal
      Seal 16 March 2016 15: 41
      +2
      Absolutely fair remark.
      Our ancestors did not even know about any "Mongols". And then they turned everything upside down, and even in schools they forced them to teach - that now from those idiots who do not want to think these notorious "Mongols" cannot be knocked out with a club. Apparently we will have to wait until several generations have changed, until the one that will dig up to the primary sources comes, and not scream in a bad voice that: "Yes, it is written about the Mongols in the school textbook !!"
      But documents are not so difficult to search. Moreover, they are one-two and miscalculated.
      So in 1906, on the eve of the celebration of the 300th anniversary of the Romanov dynasty, the Approved Certificate of 1613 on the election of Mikhail Fedorovich Romanov to the Moscow State was re-photographed and reprinted.
      How is it remarkable? And the fact that it was the most important state act, which was not lost (like all kinds of annals), was constantly under protection, was inaccessible for revisions. Still - who dares to edit something in the most important state document !!!
      And what made editing even more difficult was the fact that there were two copies of the Approved Certificate. And on both signatures of all members of the Council. Both copies were stored together, then disconnected, then again together. At the time of publication in 1906, one copy was stored in the Archive of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the other in the Armory.
      And unfortunately for all duty clowns from history, obsessed with "Mongols" in the Approved Charter of 1613 there is an introduction telling about the origin and formation of the Russian State.
      Yes, Batu is already mentioned in it. But in what context!
      And most importantly, there are neither Tatars nor Mongols. But there is simply a "horde", and with a small letter.
      So, here is the place we are interested in:
      “According to the great sovereign Vladimir Manamakh, I took the scepter of the Russian kingdom of kingdom, his son the great prince Yuri Vladimirovich Dolgoruky, and piety prosiya, and all the peasantry in peace and quiet.
      According to it, a congress at the Russian state in Volodimer, his son the prince the great Vsevolod Yuryevich, a champion of piety and a strong champion for the holy churches, and about the holy Orthodox peasant vrya.
      According to Vsevolod, the scepter of the Russian state contains the son of his prince the great Yaroslav Vsevolodich, he himself will observe God from Batu in Veliky Novograd and with his children and after capturing the godless Batu, the holy and immaculate peasant faith are distributed and renewed by the holy churches.
      According to him, the Great Russian State will be taken by the scepter, his son, the brave prince the great Alexander Yaroslavich, who, like Germans, show the glorious victory on the Neva, and on the godly faith of the godless Berkai tsar, the beastly wrath in the horde of tame and glorified God’s miracle after death. ”

      And what do we see?
      First. In 1613, our ancestors wrote: "... after the capture of the godless Batu", that is, they still remembered that the godless Batu was captured. It is a pity, it is not specified when and by whom. But then there was a certain "lion-hearted" king Berkay, whom Alexander Yaroslavich "tamed". When and who decided that King Berkai was the brother of the godless Batu and that they were both Mongols ??? fool
      And the second one. Our ancestors in 1613 recorded that Alexander Yaroslavich on the Neva won a glorious victory over the Germans (Germans) and not over the sveta (Swedes). Of which our ancestors in 1613 very clearly distinguished.
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 16 March 2016 15: 59
        +2
        Quote: Seal
        So in 1906, on the eve of the celebration of the 300th anniversary of the Romanov dynasty, the Approved Certificate of 1613 on the election of Mikhail Fedorovich Romanov to the Moscow State was re-photographed and reprinted.

        Yes, you sho ...? lol
        Remind - how were the "elections" of the new Tsar after several years of Troubles? And who was the daddy of the newly-minted Tsar of Moscow, what administrative resources were used in the name of the cries of "Mishan to the throne?" What prevented you from completely rewriting History already in the THAT period, the period of the change of eras, when the Rurik family was interrupted?
        The Romanovs are rogues of the beginning of the XNUMXth century, who, by the will of fate, ended up on the throne ....
        Do you speak a letter? lol
        A good example is today's Banderostan, with its official version of the History of NezalEzhnoy, leading the origins from the time long before the ancient Egyptian civilization .... laughing
        Quote: Seal
        And the fact that it was the most important State Act, which was not lost (like all sorts of annals),

        Chronicles were written by monks in monasteries - chroniclers, and not scribblers "for glory and greatness."
        And this tsidulia was kept for centuries by the Romanov Tokma as a document confirming their exceptionalism, which is supposedly not from the Romanov Bay-Byrakhty.
        1. Seal
          Seal 16 March 2016 17: 19
          +2
          How many times have I noticed that if an opponent is rude and pokes, then his comment can not be read to the end, since in 99% of cases it will be exclusively stupid. Stupidity always goes hand in hand with rudeness.

          The Romanovs are rogues of the beginning of the XNUMXth century, who, by the will of fate, ended up on the throne ....
          Yes, be the Romanovs at least three times rogues (Down with the Romanovs !!! Godunov’s descendants - to the kingdomooo !!!) - their task (their comrades-in-arms) was to exalt themselves, and not to remove the Mongols from the history. On the contrary, using the moment, they could invent such a thing .. for example, invent an ancestor who, having learned that somewhere in the Far East there is a threat to Russia - mounted his horse and with his faithful squad got to Mongolia and there he defeated Genghis Khan himself . After which he was glorified (add the level of glorification yourself ...).
          Chronicles were written by monks in monasteries - chroniclers, and not scribblers "for glory and greatness."

          Firstly, each monastery depended on secular authority. Now, if some prince (No. 1) slaughtered monasteries and gave a couple of villages to the monastery, and the other (No. 2) did not give anything, and the third (No. 3) even selected what the first gave, what will be written by the annalistic monks in chronicles in the description of the acts of the first, second and third prince?
          And secondly, where did the "monks-chroniclers" get their information from?
          1. Spnsr
            Spnsr 16 March 2016 17: 33
            +2
            Quote: Seal
            Yes, be the Romanovs at least three times rogues (Down with the Romanovs !!! Descendants of Godunovs - to Tsarstvoooo !!!)
            “According to the great sovereign Vladimir Manamakh, I took the scepter of the Russian kingdom of kingdom, his son the great prince Yuri Vladimirovich Dolgoruky, and piety prosiya, and all the peasantry in peace and quiet.
            According to it, a congress at the Russian state in Volodimer, his son the prince the great Vsevolod Yuryevich, a champion of piety and a strong champion for the holy churches, and about the holy Orthodox peasant vrya.
            According to Vsevolod, the scepter of the Russian state contains the son of his prince the great Yaroslav Vsevolodich, he himself will observe God from Batu in Veliky Novograd and with his children and after capturing the godless Batu, the holy and immaculate peasant faith are distributed and renewed by the holy churches.
            According to him, the Great Russian State will be taken by the scepter, his son, the brave prince the great Alexander Yaroslavich, who, like Germans, show the glorious victory on the Neva, and on the godly faith of the godless Berkai tsar, the beastly wrath in the horde of tame and glorified God’s miracle after death. ”

            the campaign scenario was somewhat different what else
            Seal RU Today, 15:52 And here is how our ancestors believed in 1799. The Mongols, in their understanding, have already appeared. But again, still in a rather strange way. And in 1368.
            and then they let Karamzin change the dates, rather, something else we don’t know from the board of the Romanovs
            and the dogs were lapping others were! Well they are so on the Swedes! oh yes, the Germans, the Romanovs, wanted to keep friendship redone for the Swedes, who were invented along the way !!!! laughing
          2. stalkerwalker
            stalkerwalker 16 March 2016 19: 44
            +2
            Quote: Seal
            How many times have I noticed that if an opponent is rude and pokes, then his comment can not be read to the end, since in 99% of cases it will be exclusively stupid. Stupidity always goes hand in hand with rudeness.

            Just don’t have to tear a shirt on your chests - like offended ....
            Quote: Seal
            And secondly, where did the "monks-chroniclers" get their information from?

            Well, if you were reading your nonsense, then you would surely have gone into hysterical rage, and regained yourselves at VO, so the truth would be conveyed ...
            Quote: Seal
            Yes, be the Romanovs at least three times rogues (Down with the Romanovs !!! Godunov’s descendants - to the kingdomooo !!!) - their task (their comrades-in-arms) was to exalt themselves, and not to remove the Mongols from the history

            Tokma crooks can not only erase their defeats from history, but present their "ignorance" as a divine providence.
            What Mongols are we talking about? All chronicles mention "Tatars".
            I will add, you are our sensitive ... Up to the XNUMXth century, Europe considered the Tsar of Moscow a tributary of the Horde. This is Europe, which did not reflect the raids of the Tatar-Mongol, which did not fight in the Blue Waters.
            Or is it such a fashion now, to cry and pretend to be offended, while at the same time completely denying any sources testifying to the occupation regime of the nomads who established indirect power over Russia, collecting tribute by the hands of Russian princes ...
          3. Oldwiser
            Oldwiser 17 March 2016 11: 16
            0
            Quote: Seal
            Where did the "monks-chroniclers" get their information from?

            They listened to all sorts of rumors and tales (OBS agency) and rewrote ("Old songs about the main thing" in a new way ") from other - earlier" sources "or translated" foreign literature "so to speak. That is why the "multiplier effect" of old sources is so noticeable.
          4. Oldwiser
            Oldwiser 17 March 2016 11: 16
            0
            Quote: Seal
            Where did the "monks-chroniclers" get their information from?

            They listened to all sorts of rumors and tales (OBS agency) and rewrote ("Old songs about the main thing" in a new way ") from other - earlier" sources "or translated" foreign literature "so to speak. That is why the "multiplier effect" of old sources is so noticeable.
    4. Seal
      Seal 16 March 2016 15: 52
      +1
      And here is how our ancestors believed in 1799. The Mongols, in their understanding, have already appeared. But again, still in a rather strange way. And in 1368.
      Although .. well, what time machine could, by 1799, make those of our ancestors "remember" the Mongols, about whom our more ancient ancestors, who made the Approved Charter in 1613, did not know anything?
      And how then did the Mongols move one and a half hundred years ahead compared with the year 1368, which in 1799 was for our ancestors the first year of the appearance of the Mongols within the Russian State?
      Maybe it’s really time to destroy these virtual time machines and return to the story that our ancestors imagined in 1613, without any stupid Mongols?
  5. ICT
    ICT 15 March 2016 06: 46
    20
    wink .................... crying
    1. guzik007
      guzik007 15 March 2016 10: 53
      +1
      It looks like a grilled chicken. A prettier cuter-looks like a bear: =)
    2. Former battalion commander
      Former battalion commander 15 March 2016 18: 50
      +2
      On the map, the error is not MONGOLEMPIRE but MOGOLEMPIRE. There were GREAT MOGOLS, and not MONGOLS. The concept of the Mongols appeared only in the 19th century.
  6. inkass_98
    inkass_98 15 March 2016 07: 07
    12
    Thanks, neighing! (FROM)
    The old fable continues with the Scythians (i.e., all archaeological finds do not in any way affect Samsonov’s belief that he personally came directly from the Scythians), so also the Polovtsy were added. It remains for the Huns and Bushmen (just in case) to write in Caucasians and that's it, the Nobel is provided! But in what area? KVM, medicine is closer here recourse .
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 15 March 2016 10: 18
      +1
      Quote: inkass_98
      write in Caucasians and all, Nobel is guaranteed! But in what area? KVM, medicine is closer here

      This is still harmless nonsense. Here I read the revelations of the next deputies of historical myths that there was, was a great Empire from Brest to ..., pah, damn it! From the English Channel to the Yellow Sea, and the Goths ruled in it ...
      1. KaPToC
        KaPToC 15 March 2016 22: 26
        +2
        People do not understand that the existence in ancient times of such large empires was physically impossible.
        1. Spnsr
          Spnsr 15 March 2016 22: 34
          0
          Quote: KaPToC
          People do not understand that the existence in ancient times of such large empires was physically impossible.

          people just understand what is relative today, just then
          Quote: KaPToC
          large empires
          could be!
          and as a consequence there were then the continuation of Europe of Napoleon, Charlemagne, which is Peter the Great near Poltava, Russian Empire, USSR

          and with each era they are less and less! and now small states are already breaking up !!!
        2. Oldwiser
          Oldwiser 16 March 2016 09: 17
          -1
          Quote: KaPToC
          the existence in ancient times of such large empires was physically impossible


          Is a large cavalry army stronger than individual infantry units?

          Once a year, a small detachment of the "Metropolitan Tax Service" can get to a separate inheritance for a tribute?

          If the inheritance / province sabotages the payment of tribute or even starts to riot, will in return receive a punitive expedition of the "Sonderkommando", reinforced by the "GRU special forces"?

          Again, trade routes (navigation along rivers) and caravan overland routes are infrastructure, the organization and maintenance of which are possible only in a centralized and strong empire.

          So you are wrong, dear <KARToS>
          1. KaPToC
            KaPToC 16 March 2016 20: 35
            0
            The horseman loads logistics several times stronger than the infantryman.
            A mobilized nomad is just a shepherd on a horse, and not an equestrian warrior at all.
            All the infrastructure you mentioned appeared in the 17-18 centuries.
    2. guzik007
      guzik007 15 March 2016 11: 00
      +7
      An old fable continues with the Scythians
      --------------------------------------
      And you do not consider Scythians to be Europoids?
      By the way, here is one mystery for all, stubbornly hushed up by scientists. The archaeologists of Novosibirsk, Tomsk and other large cities of Siberia, over the decades, have stirred up thousands of burial mounds dating back to the Chingizid era, and this is a collection of thousands of skulls. Plus, there are thousands of copper smelting furnaces. And, mind you, not a single Mongoloid skull, only Caucasians. Doesn't he say anything? And the settlements are all Scythian. These facts, in their own words, are stubbornly hushed up by the Academy of Sciences. They earnestly ask "not to mess up"
      1. Chisayna
        Chisayna 15 March 2016 12: 47
        -1
        Like the gold of the Scythians, found in the valley of kings 2700 (two thousand seven hundred years) approximately. But birch bark letters were not found in the mounds.
        1. Oldwiser
          Oldwiser 15 March 2016 18: 29
          0
          Quote: Chisain
          no birch bark letters were found in the mounds.

          Are there many birches growing in our steppe zone?
          1. Chisayna
            Chisayna 15 March 2016 19: 00
            +1
            I wrote about the mounds of the Tsar Valley. Every year I pass by. There are enough trees there, like other trees. This is because in Novgorod there is one culture, judging by the birch bark letters, and in Turan another.
        2. Oldwiser
          Oldwiser 15 March 2016 18: 29
          -2
          Quote: Chisain
          no birch bark letters were found in the mounds.

          Are there many birches growing in our steppe zone?
  7. Senior manager
    Senior manager 15 March 2016 07: 11
    +2
    Incomprehensible passage. The Polovtsy between the two superethnic groups of the Rus are one of their own Rus, is this understandable, the head of the second ethnic group Genghis Khan? And a lot of technical errors. The article is very similar to the declaration, although it is harmonious and understandable. In my opinion, the truth is not far away, and there is no description about the Mongol-Tatar yoke in Russia.
  8. Red_Hamer
    Red_Hamer 15 March 2016 07: 37
    +5
    The history of Russia is a serious and ambiguous topic. Unfortunately, some populists take advantage of this, they are promoting their loved ones at the same time, turning the study of this material into farce. And as you know, turn a serious topic into a farce, and you will destroy it. What both veiled and open Russophobes use. The war on all fronts, which of the youths now, knows that a fairy tale, a tale and an epic are not synonyms, but different concepts in general? The developers of moronic characters in modern cartoons do their job.
  9. Mangel olys
    Mangel olys 15 March 2016 07: 41
    -10 qualifying.
    After the conquest of the main part of the Jin empire, the "Mongols" began a war against the Kara-Khitan Khanate, defeating which established the border with Khorezm. Khorezmshah ruled over the huge Muslim Khorezm state, which stretched from North India to the Caspian and Aral Seas, as well as from modern Iran to Kashgar. In 1219-1221 "Mongols" defeated Khorezm and took the main cities of the kingdom.

    "The political conditions under which the ethnos of the medieval Tatars developed in the X-XII centuries before the start of the Mongol movement were as follows: the Chinese and Tanguts steadily advanced from the east to the Great Steppe and eastern Turkestan, the country of the Tugyzugiz and Tatars. From the west, inevitably capturing new territories, the Khorezm shahs tried to expand to the east, representing the interests of the merchant and religious nobility of the Middle East and Iran ... Thus, the medieval Tatars found themselves between two aggressive centers of world civilizations ... The Zin empire was first defeated, as the most aggressive state, " which sent troops every three years to destroy the Tatars and capture slaves "from among them ... The defeat of the main forces of this aggressor, an empire with an almost 60 million population of Chinese and Jurchens, took in principle one year and in 1215 Beijing was taken. the empire in the near future could reach Europe ... As you can see, the aggressor who threatened all of Eurasia was not It was neutralized by medieval Tatars - tribesmen and descendants of Chyngyz Khan and their associates ... After the defeat of the Chyngyz Khan Empire in 1219 against the Tatars Chyngyz Khan began a war. were as follows; within a year, the armed forces of the Khorezm shah, a country with a population of 20 million, were completely defeated ... L.N. Gumilev gave the following assessment to this fact; "What a blessing, if you think that the Chinese did not reach Europe at the turn of our era! ... So, exactly when China had the strength and power to conquer Asia and establish Pax Sinica, the Huns and Turks, and later the Mongols stopped the aggression of China to the West. And this is the merit of the steppe peoples to humanity. "" (G. Enikeev, "In the footsteps of the black legend", 2009, pp. 98-99)
    So, dear Alexander Samsonov, you need to know the subject and present it objectively.
    1. Pissarro
      Pissarro 15 March 2016 12: 54
      +4
      The capture of slaves in China was of very small scope because of its absolute unnecessity. The poor peasants sold their children into slavery and there was never a shortage of labor in China. To send expensive expeditions to catch scattered nomads on the steppes in order to capture slaves is idiocy in its purest form for overpopulated Celestial
  10. Boris55
    Boris55 15 March 2016 07: 42
    19
    "Meanwhile, in order to understand the most complete nonsense about the Mongol conquest, it is enough to turn to the data of even that historical" science "that tries to prove the opposite. Actually, what traces the Mongols left behind:

    - Written sources - 0 (zero), which is not surprising, since the Mongols received their writing only in the twentieth century (before that various alphabets of more cultural peoples adapted). However, in the Russian chronicles (even if they are littered with very late fakes), no Mongols were mentioned even once.

    - Architectural monuments - 0 (zero).

    - Linguistic borrowings - 0 (zero): just as there is not a single Mongol word in Russian, there were no borrowings from Russian in Mongol until the 20th century.

    - Cultural and legal borrowing - 0 (zero): neither in our everyday life is there anything from the Trans-Baikal nomads, nor the nomads borrowed anything from the much more cultured peoples supposedly conquered by them until the last century.

    - Economic consequences of the conquest of the world - 0 (zero): two-thirds of Eurasia were robbed by nomads, should they have brought at least something home? Let not libraries, but at least a piece of gold torn from the temples allegedly destroyed by them ... But there’s nothing at all.

    - Numismatic traces - 0 (zero): no Mongolian coins are known to the world.

    - In weapons business - 0 (zero).

    - In the folklore of the Mongols there are no, even phantom memories of their “great” past, which was noted by all Europeans who had contact with the natives, starting from the 17th century, when a wave of Russian colonization reached Transbaikalia.

    "Population genetics does not find the slightest trace of the presence of the Trans-Baikal nomads in the vastness of Eurasia, which they conquered."

    As historians composed the Mongol empire: http://79.120.77.163/WordPress/2016/03/01/%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BA-%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%
    D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%8F%D0%BB%D0%B8-%
    D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D1%83%D1%8E-%D0%B8%D0%BC/
    1. xorgi
      xorgi 15 March 2016 08: 24
      +3
      You are confusing the Mongols of Genghis Khan and the current "Trans-Baikal" Mongols.
      1. ver_
        ver_ 11 February 2019 07: 56
        0
        ... Genghis Khan - Yuri George Dolgoruky ...
    2. ovod84
      ovod84 15 March 2016 08: 27
      -5
      And for example, the word barn is not Mongolian, Altyn, etc.
      1. aviator65
        aviator65 15 March 2016 12: 12
        +4
        These are Turkic words.
        1. but still
          but still 15 March 2016 14: 59
          -1
          Quote: aviator65
          These are Turkic words.


          Or maybe Persian? smile

          By the way, the word AUL, what do you think of what origin? No, not Turkic smile And not Persian smile
          1. aviator65
            aviator65 16 March 2016 09: 12
            0
            Quote: but still
            Or maybe Persian?

            And you ask the Turks. yes
    3. egor73
      egor73 15 March 2016 08: 33
      +1
      The absence of borrowings from the Mongolian language is explained very simply. The state language of the Golden Horde was the Polovtsian (Turkic) language. Because the majority of the population were conquered Turks, and only the top-tier were the Mongols.
      1. gray smeet
        gray smeet 15 March 2016 09: 32
        +8
        An interesting detail in our history - there are a lot of maps, world globes - there are maps dating back to 1154! BUT!!! You will not find maps drawn up in Russian (Old Russian, etc.), no matter where, even if they are later. You will meet Russian cards only in the region of 1700gg. and older ... Did Tsar Ivan the Terrible go camping without maps or with maps drawn up by foreigners ??? Interestingly, the foreigners made rather detailed maps of Russia ...

        example 1570

        https://zima344h.storage.yandex.net/rdisk/e0e47180c85e70f1ef93a4ea51a85b79d1d53b


        13ba20139b0aeb09036ca14d96/56e7de4b/_1cQCcY-YYXEJeLwegEcfo2cI8zUcrDPz7YWrybbrksP


        fckGxUgAY9Y5mZZ-5rwwiZMP5EQL94XDq3Sy8WkG5Q==?uid=0&filename=1570-Anthonius-Wied-


        Russia-Moscovia.jpg & disposition = inline & hash = & limit = 0 & content_type = image% 2Fjpeg & f


        size=16648121&hid=49d2510ef382e0054425f86409eff1ee&media_type=image&tknv=v2&etag


        =2430d1c0fda88a62f99594c9d2fcb8b4&rtoken=wrt1dvHRrZTo&force_default=no&ycrid=na-


        52b8aa5ca6229823cb8d54a94a32705b-downloader7g
        1. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian 15 March 2016 10: 24
          +2
          Quote: gray smeet
          Did Tsar Ivan the Terrible go camping without maps or with maps drawn up by foreigners ???

          Find the library of Ivan Vasilich, and you will be happy, cards, arguments, facts ...
          1. gray smeet
            gray smeet 15 March 2016 10: 46
            +2
            Quote: Pomoryanin

            Find the library of Ivan Vasilich, and you will be happy, cards, arguments, facts ...


            Well, about the library of Grozny - they have been looking for it for a very long time, but they will not find it ..
            At the same time ... According to legend, the library was originally owned by the Byzantine emperors. The last of the emperors who owned the library is called Constantine XI. After the fall of Constantinople, the book collection was taken to Rome, and then moved to Moscow as a dowry of the Byzantine princess Sophia Paleolog, married to Moscow Prince Ivan III. - so what will we find there (if we find) whose cards?

            Why Ivan the Terrible .. Afanasy Nikitin, with his "Walking the Three Seas" - interestingly he moved without maps? Or, in another way, I will say - was it not for drawing up the maps that he was sent from his sovereign, Grand Duke Mikhail Borisovich of Tversky, from Vladyka Gennady of Tverskoy and from Boris Zakharyich?
            1. Pomeranian
              Pomeranian 15 March 2016 13: 49
              0
              Quote: gray smeet
              Well, about the library of Grozny - they have been looking for it for a very long time, but they will not find it ..

              But this does not mean that it is not at 100%.
            2. Seal
              Seal 16 March 2016 17: 28
              +1
              After the fall of Constantinople, the book collection was taken to Rome,

              With the sanction of the Turkish Sultan? Or her, according to legends? exported underground, one book per person?
          2. Seal
            Seal 16 March 2016 17: 25
            0
            Find the library of Ivan Vasilich, and you will be happy, cards, arguments, facts ...

            1) It is not a fact that it was at all and therefore it is pointless to look for something that did not exist.
            2) And suddenly (if it was and will be found) there will be no cards, no arguments, no facts. And one happiness in the form of hymnals, gospels and other religious literature?
            1. Pomeranian
              Pomeranian 16 March 2016 17: 35
              0
              Quote: Seal
              And one happiness in the form of hymnals, gospels and other religious literature?

              Any world historian will kiss you in the ass until you turn blue if you provide him with at least one Psalter from the library of Ivan IV.
              1. Seal
                Seal 16 March 2016 19: 45
                +1
                Quote: Pomoryanin
                Any world historian will kiss you in the ass until you turn blue if you provide him with at least one Psalter from the library of Ivan IV.

                Yes ! Historians will kiss these idioms, not realizing that they will not receive any real information about the era related to the era of I. Grozny and its predecessor. Nevertheless, they still consider the Psalms and the Gospels - for the DOCUMENTS of the era what
                1. Pomeranian
                  Pomeranian 17 March 2016 09: 31
                  0
                  Quote: Seal
                  Nevertheless, they still consider the Psalms and the Gospels - for the DOCUMENTS of the era

                  Sorry, student reasoning. Even the composition of the ink used to write the Psalter is a very important historical artifact.
      2. aviator65
        aviator65 15 March 2016 14: 49
        +2
        Quote: egor73
        Because most of the population were conquered Turks

        Why not Chinese 7
        Actually, some kind of nonsense. That is, the language of the enslaved peoples has become the STATE language of the conquering country? And did ordinary Mongols, those who are not "the top", also switched to Turkic?
        1. egor73
          egor73 15 March 2016 19: 03
          -2
          And here are the Chinese in general? Yes, everyone switched to Turkic and this is not nonsense. There are many examples in history when the conquerors adopted the culture, life and speech of the conquered peoples. And if you don’t believe that the Mongols were there at all, look at the Tatars of the Volga region - at a quarter you will see Mongoloid features.
          1. aviator65
            aviator65 15 March 2016 20: 45
            0
            Quote: egor73
            And if you don’t believe that the Mongols were there at all, look at the Tatars of the Volga region - at a quarter you will see Mongoloid features.

            So what? And why a quarter, not a third? In fact, not so far from them (compared with the Mongols) are Kazakhs and Kyrgyz. And for those, these traits are present in almost everyone.
            Quote: egor73
            And here are the Chinese in general?

            Yes, among the conquered there should have been more by definition, and the languages ​​are close.
          2. Oldwiser
            Oldwiser 17 March 2016 11: 54
            0
            Do not confuse Tatars and Bashkirs - neither one nor the other will understand. laughing
          3. Oldwiser
            Oldwiser 17 March 2016 11: 54
            0
            Do not confuse Tatars and Bashkirs - neither one nor the other will understand. laughing
      3. KaPToC
        KaPToC 15 March 2016 22: 30
        0
        You describe the Khazar Kaganate, where the majority of the population were Turks and Slavs, and the ruling elite .............. Jews, what a surprise.
    4. Forest
      Forest 15 March 2016 09: 56
      0
      And all this is, only someone closes his eyes.
      1. The comment was deleted.
    5. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 15 March 2016 10: 24
      0
      And here you have already answered your arguments a couple of times quite reasonably. Apparently, it is a useless lesson to prove proven, since you again post the same thing ..
    6. Cro-Magnon
      Cro-Magnon 15 March 2016 22: 00
      +2
      The soundest and most objective comment! Thanks! Above there was a comment about the Siberian excavations of the Scythian-Sarmatian mounds and settlements ... there is such, he himself participated twice as a student ... there are no Mongoloid skulls in these layers! There are dozens of 17th-18th-century Russian fortresses overgrown with weeds throughout the forest-forest zone of Western Siberia ... but even the 15th century "Mongol" - not a single one! Where is the legacy of the "great" empire ??!
  11. parusnik
    parusnik 15 March 2016 07: 44
    15
    Old songs about the "main thing" .. I will not be surprised at an article which will talk about how in the course of the great construction the pagan Rus of the Scythian world built the Chinese wall and dug Lake Baikal .. smile
    1. gingerbread man 59
      gingerbread man 59 15 March 2016 08: 12
      +1
      I’ll tell you that the Chinese themselves built the Chinese wall in order to isolate themselves from such a state as Tortaria. Well, nature itself dug up and dug it. Ukrainians dug up the Black Sea
      1. gray smeet
        gray smeet 15 March 2016 09: 41
        +2
        Quote: Gingerbread Man 59
        I’ll tell you that the Chinese themselves built the Chinese wall in order to isolate themselves from such a state as Tortaria. Well, nature itself dug up and dug it. Ukrainians dug up the Black Sea


        I attach the map (1636). We are looking for the "Great Wall of China" on it:
        https://zima147h.storage.yandex.net/rdisk/c47b6c824cd594e3711cac998f6cbc7e7b788e


        12b78faeed9773919c9f520d18/56e7e1bf/C76GhMiiCH__U-ue9QE5ks5ICewSgftPe8FYbVx8Kht5


        4lQa9AnlUP4LEoVkNcyWqJhLao_GV1IfpbfXrAISTg==?uid=0&filename=1666-de-Witt-Tartari


        ae.jpg & disposition = inline & hash = & limit = 0 & content_type = image% 2Fpjpeg & fsize = 2378914


        9&hid=c9ae659e0291bb84d0f2a47e8aa3cd3f&media_type=image&tknv=v2&etag=837a5dfd83f


        b61225a65d1db5047be09&rtoken=CPJmqWLkeb1q&force_default=no&ycrid=na-6f29b5ccb3f2


        61f91b31221cb83203d5-downloader10e
        1. gray smeet
          gray smeet 15 March 2016 09: 51
          0
          If you still need to add cards ...

          1636 .:

          https://zima346h.storage.yandex.net/rdisk/e9e9e7b6f7a84e0ab2e1adcd2e704d05ee2f23


          ba64e3c434c2f9413e078aeb27/56e7e8a1/OmlFHhdXIRcWsYup1MpMBLp1oOwsY4Cq_i3p_PQmRJni


          PCtelBwj4nr3onsQ8__DDHyLMyonZj8IYtbT1--FDw==?uid=0&filename=1636-Hondius-1.jpg&d


          isposition = inline & hash = & limit = 0 & content_type = image% 2Fjpeg & fsize = 16992057 & hid = 057


          5f83e30fc4c45629997609ead68b3&media_type=image&tknv=v2&etag=0422f61ef26a2e694966


          20156683b979&rtoken=2WIXBrtdtQqt&force_default=no&ycrid=na-4156edcdc1014d8c3b9e1


          221076e298e-downloader5e

          or there is another 1667:

          http://chelovechnost.narod.ru/Karty/1667-SilkRoad.jpg
          1. gray smeet
            gray smeet 15 March 2016 21: 37
            0
            If the link does not open:

            https://yadi.sk/d/vvyf5LpP4meqY
      2. Spnsr
        Spnsr 15 March 2016 21: 00
        +2
        Quote: Gingerbread Man 59
        I’ll tell you that the Chinese themselves built the Chinese wall in order to isolate themselves from such a state as Tortaria. Well, nature itself dug up and dug it. Ukrainians dug up the Black Sea

        no, you’re wrong, it’s the Ukrainians as a punishment for their sinfulness, they dug the Black Sea, spread the Caucasus Range, the Ural Mountains and the Pamirs with the Caspian Sea, the Caspian Sea to fill the mountains, otherwise there was not enough land to separate the White Horde from the Blue and Golden Hordes , and the latter among themselves, as well as show the territory of Romanov Muscovy, when the Romanovs seized the throne in Third Rome to separate the Tobolsk Cossacks from the encroachments of the Romanovs, which the Romanovs did not stop laughing laughing laughing laughing
    2. PKK
      PKK 15 March 2016 13: 02
      +1
      Remind me which side the loopholes of the Chinese wall are looking in. Don't you find it strange, for the Khan version?
      1. Pissarro
        Pissarro 15 March 2016 13: 14
        +3
        where they are supposed to look, north. The beginning of the wall, the city of Shanhaiguan, leads tourists to the place where the wall abuts against the sea. It abuts against the sea only at one end, so don’t twist, ravings of Fomenkovtsy and others break against this wall laughing
        1. Bruss
          Bruss 15 March 2016 16: 59
          0
          Pay attention http://SSMaker.ru/4c6d268e/
        2. Spnsr
          Spnsr 15 March 2016 21: 11
          0
          Quote: Pissarro
          where they are supposed to look, north. The beginning of the wall, the city of Shanhaiguan, leads tourists to the place where the wall abuts against the sea. It abuts against the sea only at one end, so don’t twist, ravings of Fomenkovtsy and others break against this wall laughing

          didn’t you know that that wall, the first one was already destroyed, time didn’t spare it, but this is a new building, which ... in general, it’s for tourists, and there’s a lot of loopholes on the drum!
          1. Pissarro
            Pissarro 16 March 2016 00: 53
            0
            Manjurs, having taken China, unlike the Chinese, did not see the point in such a defensive structure, that's for sure, the wall fell apart a lot. But it fell apart not to zero, to the ruins that restored


            The Qin people built the Long Wall as a defense against barbarians.
            A long wall grew up, and the empire rolled down.
            People today laugh at her ...
            As soon as it was announced that the walls would be built in the east,
            It has been reported that hordes of barbarians attacked in the west.
            They rushed through the ruined walls as if on flat ground,
            Robbing what they wanted and where they wanted.
            When the barbarians retreated, the walls grew again.
            The builders worked from dawn to dusk, but what was the use? ..
            Why did we build walls ten thousand long?

            Wang Sytong, Chinese historian and poet, 17th century
        3. aviator65
          aviator65 15 March 2016 21: 12
          +2
          The Great Wall of China is the greatest historical razvodilovo invented by the Chinese. Building a gigantic defensive structure for nearly a thousand years, throwing untold resources on it, and as a result get a "zilch" suitable only for demonstration to tourists and as a "brand" of former greatness is a very dubious enterprise from the point of view of common sense. It looks especially ridiculous in areas with difficult mountainous terrain (especially beautiful photo-views on many postcards, posters, wallpapers, etc.), where an attack by large forces is almost impossible. Or in the above photo. It seems that someone has fenced off a private beach. And judging by the state of this fragment, it was built much later than the great Mongol conquerors were gone.
        4. Cro-Magnon
          Cro-Magnon 15 March 2016 22: 12
          +2
          Do you see anything strange in the photo? Type of bricks of different types, colors and sizes? And even European and Russian travelers did not find the VKS point blank either in the 19th or the beginning of the 20th century ... With the suppression of boxing enthusiasm, the Russian troops moving to Beijing did not have to overcome any walls ...
          1. Pissarro
            Pissarro 16 March 2016 00: 29
            0
            Do you know Karamzin? lived in the 18th century.
            History of the Russian State, Volume 3, Chapter 8, on the Mongol Conquests
            third paragraph of this chapter

            Great stone wall serving as a fence for China, did not stop the brave Mughals: they took 90 cities there, defeated countless enemy troops, killed a lot of captive elders, as useless people.


            Further, Karamzin, History of the Russian State, Volume 9, Chapter 6, on the Embassy of Ivan the Terrible

            remembering rumors about Turkestan, Bukharin, Kashgar, Tibet, the travelers of Ioannov say in their curious report that the letter of the Mungal Queen opened for them the iron gates of the wall of China; but that, having freely reached the rich, crowded Beijing, they could not see the Emperor without having gifts to him from the Sovereign.


            That is, Karamzin knew about the wall in the 18th century, do not agree?
            1. Cro-Magnon
              Cro-Magnon 16 March 2016 07: 04
              +3
              In 1943, our soldiers stormed the Nazi EASTERN SHAFT, in 1945 stormed FORTRESS Berlin! Have you seen these ramparts and fortresses yourself? And after a couple of centuries, new karamzins and kustomarovs delving into the archives will find them and they will become REAL! So I more believe those who traveled around China for their two people and not according to all sorts of notes there Marco Polo sitting in St. Petersburg!
              1. Pissarro
                Pissarro 16 March 2016 12: 41
                +1
                Karamzin wrote about the wall, but it didn’t exist. It was later built. Denying reality is a very difficult case. laughing
                1. stalkerwalker
                  stalkerwalker 16 March 2016 16: 10
                  +4
                  Quote: Pissarro
                  Karamzin wrote about the wall, but it wasn’t there; it was later built

                  When they speak in a derogatory manner about Russian historians, trampling Schlezer and Miller along the way, when the works of Klyuchevsky and Solovyov are declared heresy of the Old Testament, what kind of debate can there be?
                  IN TRUTH
                  Denying reality is a very difficult case.

                  especially for those who do not cherish the history of the country, putting their dumb opinion at the forefront of dumb reasoning.
            2. Seal
              Seal 16 March 2016 17: 32
              +1
              That is, Karamzin knew about the wall in the 18th century, do not agree?

              Karamzin did not know about the wall. He heard about her and therefore thought he knew. As is Heavenly Jerusalem hi
        5. Seal
          Seal 16 March 2016 14: 53
          +2
          In 1945, the Red Army launched an offensive against the Kwantung Army. At least one of our military commanders left in his memoirs or in operational reports to the higher command a phrase like: "On that day, the tanks of my brigade stumbled upon the Great Wall of China"?
    3. tacet
      tacet 15 March 2016 13: 24
      +2
      Thoughts are the same, but earlier. On an article by the same author:
      tacet RU November 13, 2015 11:18
      Amused, thanks! ) I just want to continue following the author - the Slavs -Russians dug the Baltic Sea and the Arctic Ocean, and the Ural mountains were their dump.))) Well, in the text - a terrible mess, something taken from history (for example, the western border of the settlement of the Slavs- r. Elba) half of the author's "creative" approach. As for "The people take everything at face value. The people are used to trusting venerable and such important learned men. This is how history is made." It seems that the author is writing not about modern Russian society, but about the Soviet Union of the late 80s - early 90s, or about modern Ukrainian (for the most part). After the 90s, people in Russia ceased to be so naive and gullible.
  12. EvilLion
    EvilLion 15 March 2016 08: 23
    +1
    Goblin, who D. Puchkov in intelligence was about the Mongol invasion about a month ago, has a detailed explanation of how it happened and who was there. Of course, no anthropological Mongols were already there.
  13. Hooks
    Hooks 15 March 2016 08: 43
    15
    There were demons, I do not deny, but they self-destructed. (with)
    1. Oldwiser
      Oldwiser 15 March 2016 18: 42
      0
      And in general, "Ivan IV Vasilyevich the Terrible is not a real tsar !!!" laughing
    2. Oldwiser
      Oldwiser 15 March 2016 18: 42
      0
      And in general, "Ivan IV Vasilyevich the Terrible is not a real tsar !!!" laughing
    3. Spnsr
      Spnsr 16 March 2016 14: 59
      0
      Quote: Hooks
      There were demons, I do not deny, but they self-destructed. (with)

      having buried Genghis Khan, the next fifty killed those who directly buried, the next fifty killed those who killed those who buried, and so on ad infinitum
      they self-destructed
  14. todaygoodday
    todaygoodday 15 March 2016 08: 50
    +2
    Watch the movie Fomenko

    Take Fomenko seriously and the company can only be in a psychiatric hospital.
    1. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 15 March 2016 09: 44
      +3
      Unfortunately no. You would be right if Fomenko’s audience were limited only to the walls of such specials. institutions. But alas. This medial dialing has deposited in the brain the larvae of its nonsense in a very significant audience.
      And all this audience with its views has many signs of a religious cult.
      1. Oldwiser
        Oldwiser 15 March 2016 18: 50
        +1
        But the traditional chronology (Scaliger and Petavius) really went from the churchmen. So that
        Quote: abrakadabre
        many signs of a religious cult
        has just the same traditional version of the chronology (with thousands of years of Egypt, India, China, Miami, the Aztecs and Incas) and horseradish from where the megaliths came from and (Caution REN-TV)
        nuclear explosions in Mohenjadaro 30 years ago with plumbing and sewage systems at the level of ancient Rome
        1. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre 16 March 2016 10: 59
          0
          1. Nuclear explosions in these regions - have no relation to historical science. Like the unforgettable delusional REN-TV. You would still refer to TNT.
          2. If you are not aware of the essence of the scientific method of cognition, then for you really any serious science is a religious cult with unfounded assertions, theories, hypotheses ... Historical science too. But your ignorance is your problem, not those around you.
      2. Oldwiser
        Oldwiser 15 March 2016 18: 50
        0
        But the traditional chronology (Scaliger and Petavius) really went from the churchmen. So that
        Quote: abrakadabre
        many signs of a religious cult
        has just the same traditional version of the chronology (with thousands of years of Egypt, India, China, Miami, the Aztecs and Incas) and horseradish from where the megaliths came from and (Caution REN-TV)
        nuclear explosions in Mohenjadaro 30 years ago with plumbing and sewage systems at the level of ancient Rome
      3. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 15 March 2016 19: 08
        +1
        There is a certain positive effect from Fomenkovites smile :
        archaeologists and anthropologists have become much more thorough
        analyze atrefacts using different methods.
        To study grains in ancient jugs, the remains of clothes, wood,
        not just stone statues and shards.
        The radio-carbon method was verified with the
        tree rings, with annual layering method
        ice. And what happened?
        Ancient history turned out to be even older than in "pre-Fomenkovskie"
        classic times. Egyptian kingdoms for example
        flew "back" for at least several hundred years.
        1. Oldwiser
          Oldwiser 15 March 2016 19: 19
          +1
          Quote: voyaka uh
          Egyptian kingdoms, for example, flew "back" for a few hundred years at least

          And then we saw firewood with copper hacksaws?
        2. Oldwiser
          Oldwiser 15 March 2016 19: 19
          0
          Quote: voyaka uh
          Egyptian kingdoms, for example, flew "back" for a few hundred years at least

          And then we saw firewood with copper hacksaws?
        3. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre 16 March 2016 11: 05
          +1
          All of the above you have been and exists regardless of the existence of Fomenkovtsy. Just earlier, before widespread publication, only verified knowledge was allowed, having already passed the filter of scientific discussion and cross-validation. For public policy was - improving education.
          Now, any feverish delirium is published the sooner and in the greater quantities, the more delusional its content. Because the main principle is the level of sales, or as Puchkov-Goblin likes to repeat in the Intelligence Survey series: "banal loot." And delirium is sold faster and more profitably than serious science.
          After all, science, even in the form of just fiction, is a serious strain on the brain.
          1. Seal
            Seal 16 March 2016 17: 50
            +4
            Just earlier, before widespread publication, only verified knowledge was allowed, having already passed the filter of scientific discussion and cross-validation.

            What is cross validation? Is it that under the USSR at least one historical work (and the whole history is 99% either of military operations, or of preparation for military operations, or post-war actions are described immediately) was sent for review to the Academy of the General Staff of the Soviet Army?
            Yes, all historians who brazenly undertake to describe the "campaigns of A. Macedon" not only do not have a higher military education, they even do not have an initial military education. And still there .. A. Macedonsky, Hannibal with elephants on rafts on mountain rivers ..

            The problem of professional historians is precisely that they themselves, being full ignoramuses in science and technology, boil exclusively in their own juice.
            For example, a professional historian wrote a dissertation (candidate or doctoral - it doesn’t matter). He defended it in a community of exactly the same professional historians as he did, and then published it.
            I read a dissertation, for example, a chemist - and noted that everything in the dissertation concerned chemistry is complete rubbish. But a chemist, not being a specialist in military affairs, in mathematics, in philology, in physics, and so on, is unlikely to get into the bottle because of some other dissertation. And the chemist’s business is up to the mark. Moreover, the chemist will think .. well, and what, that the professional historian has mixed up in chemistry. But in the rest of the dissertation, he is all right. So why should life complicate both him and himself.

            Having read a dissertation, the same mathematician will also note that everything that concerns mathematics in the dissertation is complete rubbish. But a mathematician, not being a specialist in military affairs, in chemistry, in philology, in physics, and so on, is unlikely to get into a bottle because of someone else's dissertation. And the mathematician is up to his task. Moreover, the mathematician will think ... well, and what, that the professional historian has mixed up in mathematics. But in the rest of the dissertation, he is all right. So why should life complicate both him and himself.

            Further, the military, having read the dissertation, also notes that everything in the dissertation concerns military affairs is complete rubbish. But a military man, not being a specialist in mathematics, chemistry, philology, physics and so on, is unlikely to get into the bottle because of someone else's dissertation. Yes, and the affairs of the military to the neck. Especially since the military thinks ... so what, that the professional historian has mixed up in military affairs. But in the rest of the dissertation, he is all right. So why should life complicate both him and himself.

            So this professional historian will also become an academician :(
            1. Oldwiser
              Oldwiser 17 March 2016 12: 22
              0
              This is how our "scientists" live -
              the doll praises the cock for praising the cuckoo

              And it turns out in the opinion of such "scientists" that the Egyptians sawed wood on boards with copper saws, they learned to melt bronze immediately after copper (but supposedly to aluminum!), And the Chinese used gunpowder, they made rockets, and they did not think of firearms, bows and arrows were missing.
              Laughter, and only.
  15. semirek
    semirek 15 March 2016 08: 51
    +1
    I haven’t learned anything new from my article. I don’t put a minus.
    1. The centurion
      The centurion 15 March 2016 19: 56
      0
      Quote: semirek
      I learned nothing new from my article

      Well, not really. The author claims that the Polovtsian language disappeared without a trace. Meanwhile: "Information about the language of the Polovtsians of the pre-Mongol era (Cumans) (XI-XIII centuries) is given by the Latin-Persian-Cuman dictionary of the early XIV century (1303)" Codex Cumanicus ".

      Of the modern languages, the direct descendants of the Polovtsian and the closest to it are the Crimean Tatar, Kumyk, Karachay-Balkarian, Tatar and Bashkir languages.
  16. novel66
    novel66 15 March 2016 08: 52
    +8
    when the Mongolian Cossacks rebelled, there was a big commotion in Birobidzhan
  17. Engineer
    Engineer 15 March 2016 09: 00
    +2
    Someone Fomenko and Zadorny miscalculated like. fool How many written sources in Russia and abroad have been preserved since those times, so many archaeological finds among the people how many epics, legends and fairy tales have remained from that time to this day, but no, it's all fakes of the Romanovs’ court ... Astrakhan did not take , Kazan did not take, Shpak, Shpak took!
    1. Oldwiser
      Oldwiser 15 March 2016 18: 57
      0
      How many times have Astrakhan been taken? How many times have Kazan been taken?
      According to the traditional version of history - Ivan III took, Ivan IV (after 100 years) again (for the second time?) The same Kazan and Astrakhan took, and in the 17th century - again we take the same (officially - "we suppress the type of peasant ( ???) Stepan Razin's mutiny ").
      Where is the truth historical? And is there any?
    2. Seal
      Seal 16 March 2016 17: 54
      +1
      Someone Fomenko and Zadorny miscalculated like. fool How many written sources in Russia and foreign have been preserved since those times

      Do you ask or answer? If you answer, then I would like to see a list of what you are so confidently talking about. Well, it would be good if we could give an example of at least a genuine preserved source, clearly dated precisely by the time that the source is talking about. hi
  18. Pvi1206
    Pvi1206 15 March 2016 09: 04
    +2
    Question: is it worth replacing one historical myth with another ?!
    1. KaPToC
      KaPToC 15 March 2016 22: 37
      -2
      The question is more acute: is it worth replacing your own, state propaganda with enemy propaganda, overseas. Who are you actually? (Not you personally, but Fomenko’s supporters) Russian citizens or American spies?
      1. Spnsr
        Spnsr 15 March 2016 23: 01
        -1
        Quote: KaPToC
        The question is more acute: is it worth replacing your own, state propaganda with enemy propaganda, overseas. Who are you actually? (Not you personally, but Fomenko’s supporters) Russian citizens or American spies?

        I belittle you! where did you get such a gyroic speech from the metadic?

        and now specifically, that's it
        Quote: KaPToC
        replace state propaganda with enemy propaganda, overseas.
        what is it you are so affected by this question then?
        well and clean pa man, this
        Quote: KaPToC
        state propaganda
        the USSR has already collapsed, and more than one mine is at its core!

        so who are you
        Quote: KaPToC
        Russian citizens or American spies?


        or didn’t I understand something? the comments felt a different look !?
        1. KaPToC
          KaPToC 15 March 2016 23: 05
          -1
          What kind of rambling stream of guano? Take the trouble to state your thoughts more clearly. If Russian is not your native language, write in English.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. Spnsr
            Spnsr 15 March 2016 23: 27
            0
            Quote: KaPToC
            What kind of rambling stream of guano? Take the trouble to state your thoughts more clearly. If Russian is not your native language, write in English.

            m what is not clear?
  19. Riv
    Riv 15 March 2016 09: 27
    +4
    I read to the "Secret Legend" and gave up this useless task. Still, the author referred to "Altan-tobchi" as a historical source. Bullshit.
  20. Heimdall47
    Heimdall47 15 March 2016 09: 34
    +4
    The first half of the article, which describes the classic version of the emergence of the Mongol empire, can be read. But now, when the author goes to the Polovtsian and further, then at least take out the saints. A sharp jump from common sense to fierce delirium.
    Where do these history reformers come from, what do they lack in the traditional history of Russia? Everything is there, what a normal person needs - why pile up any nonsense?
    1. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 15 March 2016 09: 52
      +6
      And the real facts of real history from the first part are needed to ensure that in the second part it is more convenient to carry nonsense into the souls of uneducated converts. It becomes more folding and bribing.
  21. baudolino
    baudolino 15 March 2016 09: 41
    +6
    Genghis Khan was described with red hair and blond eyes. So he was one of ours too?
    And for some reason the bloodlines of Temujin merkits, for which the Polovtsy fit in, are not mentioned. For which they paid.
    1. Heimdall47
      Heimdall47 15 March 2016 09: 46
      +4
      Genghis Khan was described with red hair and blond eyes. So he was one of ours too?

      Of course from ours. And Guy Julius Caesar with Hannibal were also Rusyns. Everyone was in the same room.
      1. Chisayna
        Chisayna 15 March 2016 09: 49
        +6
        Yes, sanctions let you know. Health care funding is being cut. Those who are not violent can be released.
    2. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 15 March 2016 09: 55
      +5
      Genghis Khan was described with red hair and blond eyes. So he was one of ours too?
      Please provide the source on which this statement is made. Variants of sources like Fomenko-Nosovsky or Yenikeev (Yenikey -> Any key -> "any key") are not considered sources by definition.
      1. Riv
        Riv 15 March 2016 10: 45
        +4
        Apparently this comes from the interpretation of the legend about the origin of Genghis Khan. Rashid ad-Din writes: "A red-haired, blue- (green)-eyed man approached her very slowly every night in her sleep, and then slipped away invisibly away."

        From Rashid-ad-din: “Kubilai-kaan is the fourth son of Tului-khan ... When Genghis Khan's gaze fell on him, he said:“ All our children are red, and this boy is black-eyed, obviously he looks like [his] Uncle, let Sorkuktani run so that she gives him to feed a good nurse. ”

        Khubilai and Batu are the grandchildren of Genghis Khan. Then, following elementary logic, Batu was red-haired, and Genghis Khan, since the hair color of his children / grandchildren did not raise questions, too. Ukrainians did not have to show the genocide of the 14th century to the Mongols, but to the Turks.
    3. Starshina wmf
      Starshina wmf 15 March 2016 11: 20
      +2
      The Mongols also have red ones. He works with me red. But not the Mongol, of course, Kalmyk, though clean. There is no one of a different nationality in the family. This is precisely because we know all the ancestors up to 7, or even more than the knee. I he is a descendant of the Merkits. Polovtsy fit in with Khan Tokhta -beki and his sons. Since the Merkit army was defeated in several battles and the Khan and his sons fled to the Polovtsians. There they all died fighting with Chinggis Khan. Unlike the Kotyan khan who fled to Hungary. And the blood of Genghis Khan was a tribe of Tatars who poisoned the father of Genghis Khan and his family was in poverty after his death. Therefore, they were all destroyed. And the present Tatars have nothing to do with those except the name. And the Merkits are the most rebellious and warlike, there were scatter among other tribes.
    4. xan
      xan 15 March 2016 15: 18
      +3
      Quote: baudolino
      Genghis Khan was described with red hair and blond eyes. So he was one of ours too?

      That tochnik of yours, like Messrs. Chingizyuk, Napoleonenko and Guitar.
  22. Pomeranian
    Pomeranian 15 March 2016 10: 12
    0
    The work is very solid, if it were not for the passages in the direction of the Scythians, Sibiro, Asio, Mongolo and other Russians would be even more interesting. Here is a question for all fans of Nosovsky-Fomenko: who burned cities in Russia? For example, within a radius of 12 kilometers from the village in the middle zone, there are two settlements destroyed and destroyed in the 13th century, which, in fact, is confirmed by excavations. By the way, the arrowheads found in the 80s of the finds are not much different from those found in Northern Iran and the Caucasus. Russian arrowheads are not found in Iran. And, if anyone is interested, look at the results of excavations based on the anthropometric data of the opened burials. For some reason, skeletons, equipment and other "representatives of the old dynasty" (© Nosovchane-Fomek) on the territory
    , for example, northeastern nowhere are found before the 13 century.
    Threat. Google is omnipotent to help you with links.
  23. Oprychnik
    Oprychnik 15 March 2016 10: 38
    -1
    I feel that today there will be no consensus again.)))
    For one simple reason, traditional history is omnipotent because it is true!
    The dogmatic fanatic does not argue!)))
    On this occasion I remembered:


    From childhood, our Fedya was connected with the earth -
    Carried crushed stone and granite home ...
    Once he brought this home
    That dad and mom cried soberly.

    Fedya was very tuned as a student
    Raise archeology to the shield -
    He brought this to the institute,
    That we all cried around sobbing.

    Somehow he brought from practice
    Two rusty artifacts
    And claimed that it was an ancient treasure.
    Then one day in Elista
    Found false jaws
    The size of a moonshine.

    The diploma wrote about ancient shrines,
    About Scythians, about pagan gods,
    At the same time he swore in Latin
    That these Scythians writhed in coffins.

    He is an ancient building
    Searched with frenzy
    And often he screamed in a wild voice
    What is the trail yet
    Where do you meet pithecanthropus -
    And he hit himself in the chest.

    He decided to end his life single
    And he began to fight for a healthy life.
    "I," he said, "will find such a wife,
    That you will cry sobbing out of envy! "

    He covered all corners - and
    He was in Europe, and in Asia -
    And he soon found his ideal.
    But the ideal could not tie
    In archeology, two lines -
    And Fedya buried it again.

    Source: http://vysotskiy.lit-info.ru/vysotskiy/stihi/108.htm
  24. Glaaki
    Glaaki 15 March 2016 10: 51
    +1
    Mmmm, how nice it is to start the day with jokes from adherents of the new xp (e) onology.
  25. JonnyT
    JonnyT 15 March 2016 11: 14
    +4
    it seems to me that they are hiding something from us ........
    1. Oldwiser
      Oldwiser 15 March 2016 19: 09
      0
      On "x-true.info" there was an article "The Death of Great Tartary", so there the author generally argued that in Moscow in 1812 nuclear weapons were tested against Napoleon, and then Siberia, the Far East and the western part of the United States were subjected to massive nuclear bombardment and allegedly, therefore, the development of these territories took place already in the second half of the 19th century. laughing
    2. Oldwiser
      Oldwiser 15 March 2016 19: 09
      0
      On "x-true.info" there was an article "The Death of Great Tartary", so there the author generally argued that in Moscow in 1812 nuclear weapons were tested against Napoleon, and then Siberia, the Far East and the western part of the United States were subjected to massive nuclear bombardment and allegedly, therefore, the development of these territories took place already in the second half of the 19th century. laughing
  26. rustyle_nvrsk
    rustyle_nvrsk 15 March 2016 11: 17
    0
    What the hell did you write this "historical" article for?
  27. Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 15 March 2016 11: 34
    +1
    Once, more than six months ago, there was an article on this topic on the site. I want to find and compare it. I’ll probably find it here as well. I was immediately convinced of the absurdity of the ideas of Fomenko and Nosovsky and I am surprised that they have so many adherents.
    1. Oldwiser
      Oldwiser 15 March 2016 19: 32
      +1
      Quote: Reptiloid
      I am surprised that they have so many adherents

      Well, how - the identity of Jesus Christ has been established (Byzantine emperor Andronicus 2nd Komnenos, he is Andrei Bogolyubsky, he is Gaius Julius Caesar, he is Euclid and more than a hundred historical characters ("Tsar of the Slavs")).
      The ideological basis ("Biblical Russia") has been summed up that Russian Orthodox Christianity is the most correct religion, (then - Islam supposedly from Nestorianism and the most lame heretics are Roman-Papal Catholicism and other Protestants with Judaism)
      And so on and so forth.
      How pleasant it is to feel like a descendant of the great Russians, the Horde and the Ottomans, Cossack chieftains. laughing
      For 300 years, roughly speaking, the whole world and wild western Europe, in particular, had all the cracks.
      And then the vile Europe muddied the Reformation and phoned.
      And so far, during these 300 years of humiliation, we (Russians and Tatars) hate so fiercely.
      1. KaPToC
        KaPToC 15 March 2016 22: 41
        +1
        Although I’m not a convinced Christian, I’ll tell you that Orthodoxy is really the only right religion, it is scientific, unlike the rest.
        1. Oldwiser
          Oldwiser 16 March 2016 09: 39
          0
          Scientific religion is however powerful!

          gentlemen Bogdanov and Lunacharsky nervously smoke on the sidelines laughing
        2. Oldwiser
          Oldwiser 16 March 2016 09: 39
          0
          Scientific religion is however powerful!

          gentlemen Bogdanov and Lunacharsky nervously smoke on the sidelines laughing
    2. Oldwiser
      Oldwiser 15 March 2016 19: 32
      0
      Quote: Reptiloid
      I am surprised that they have so many adherents

      Well, how - the identity of Jesus Christ has been established (Byzantine emperor Andronicus 2nd Komnenos, he is Andrei Bogolyubsky, he is Gaius Julius Caesar, he is Euclid and more than a hundred historical characters ("Tsar of the Slavs")).
      The ideological basis ("Biblical Russia") has been summed up that Russian Orthodox Christianity is the most correct religion, (then - Islam supposedly from Nestorianism and the most lame heretics are Roman-Papal Catholicism and other Protestants with Judaism)
      And so on and so forth.
      How pleasant it is to feel like a descendant of the great Russians, the Horde and the Ottomans, Cossack chieftains. laughing
      For 300 years, roughly speaking, the whole world and wild western Europe, in particular, had all the cracks.
      And then the vile Europe muddied the Reformation and phoned.
      And so far, during these 300 years of humiliation, we (Russians and Tatars) hate so fiercely.
  28. Konstantin Yu
    Konstantin Yu 15 March 2016 11: 43
    +3
    Fomenko, Fomenko .... and Gumilev Lev Nikolaevich you not credibility? Read it and find out how to correctly analyze the chronicles ... All stories will die.
    1. Oldwiser
      Oldwiser 15 March 2016 19: 38
      0
      Quote: Konstantin Yu.
      learn how to correctly analyze the chronicles ...

      And if the chronicles are biased and rewritten (for political reasons)? And the elements of the "flow of events" are deliberately mixed up and multiplicatively multiplied (with a change in the names of characters and place names)? And how to objectively check the reliability of a source, which by definition is a hearsay?
    2. Oldwiser
      Oldwiser 15 March 2016 19: 38
      0
      Quote: Konstantin Yu.
      learn how to correctly analyze the chronicles ...

      And if the chronicles are biased and rewritten (for political reasons)? And the elements of the "flow of events" are deliberately mixed up and multiplicatively multiplied (with a change in the names of characters and place names)? And how to objectively check the reliability of a source, which by definition is a hearsay?
  29. rexby63
    rexby63 15 March 2016 12: 25
    +3
    Almost no trace of the Polovtsian language


    But what about the Codeman Cumanis? 1200 words is not a trifle
  30. unknown
    unknown 15 March 2016 12: 28
    +7
    I repeat for the gifted.

    The traditional version of the story was created by the ASTROLOGIST and NUMEROLOGIST, the EUROPECENTRIST by Scaliger

    The traditional version does not stand up to criticism. Its postulates crumble when experts from other disciplines are involved in their verification: linguists, chemists, physicists, astronomers, builders, mechanics.
    In addition to Nosovsky and Fomenko, there are Yaroslav Kesler, Kolyuzhny, Valyanskiy, Zhabinsky, Kassenko.

    As for the so-called Tatar-Mongol yoke, my teachers of the profile historical university even more than a quarter century ago argued that this was a false concept.

    Unfortunately, it is, unfortunately, that the whole traditional historical concept is false.
    1. Pissarro
      Pissarro 15 March 2016 13: 01
      -4
      yes, yes, Scaliger in China, in Persia, in Arabia, in Russia also laid out a bunch of annals in the local languages. He buried in barrows, tombs, hid in the palaces of the shahs and sultans. Where do you come from laughing
      1. KaPToC
        KaPToC 15 March 2016 22: 46
        +4
        We come from educational institutions where they teach critical thinking. There is no way to check these very heaps of annals. for example, from the ancient Greek and Roman philosophers there was not a single tract in the original, only copies of the seventeenth - nineteenth centuries of our era.
        1. Pissarro
          Pissarro 15 March 2016 23: 48
          0
          In which legal educational institution do they teach history according to Fomenko?
          1. Spnsr
            Spnsr 15 March 2016 23: 56
            +2
            Quote: Pissarro
            In which legal educational institution do they teach history according to Fomenko?

            you are a strange person!
            But is it possible to teach a person if he is not predisposed?
            Yes, even if it will be the coolest, as it is now considered, some kind of Oxford or whatever is cooler, but if people have a wooden product, then it will remain with them!
            and here are more maths who are more friends with logic! and the one in which the Soviet school laid the logic ...
            otherwise they would feel like ... oh well about that
            You may have a question, why didn’t you talk about it before? answer: before the state was stronger and there was no need for a person to search for truth, for him the state proved this to the whole world, and to him too !!!
            1. Pissarro
              Pissarro 16 March 2016 00: 40
              0
              how beautifully you move away from the direct question. You mentioned some educational institutions, so I wondered which ones teach history according to Fomenko
              1. Oldwiser
                Oldwiser 16 March 2016 09: 58
                +1
                Quote: Pissarro
                learn history by Fomenko

                "new chronology" is a HYPOTHESIS, which is not yet a generally accepted scientific theory. Therefore (so far) and "do not teach" in universities.
                There is a site www.chronologia.org, who are interested - will find and study on their own (without losing the necessary level of criticality of perception) laughing
              2. Oldwiser
                Oldwiser 16 March 2016 09: 58
                0
                Quote: Pissarro
                learn history by Fomenko

                "new chronology" is a HYPOTHESIS, which is not yet a generally accepted scientific theory. Therefore (so far) and "do not teach" in universities.
                There is a site www.chronologia.org, who are interested - will find and study on their own (without losing the necessary level of criticality of perception) laughing
              3. Seal
                Seal 16 March 2016 18: 43
                +3
                Yes, they’re not taught anywhere. We prefer to introduce the lessons of the Law of God in secondary schools, and to open departments of Theology in higher education institutions.

                But actually, why are you fixated exclusively on Fomenko and Nosovsky?
                Let me give you a more complete list.
                Fomenko can be loved / can not be loved, but it is no longer possible to "silence" his theory. This is how it was before. There were works Morozov - shut up. There was work to shorten the story Isaac Newton (yes, that one) - who knew about her? Yes, even the pro stories of the Soviet flood themselves did not know. Who knew that Jean Guardouin back in the 17-18th centuries AD about a huge part of the "ancient scriptures" proved that they are fakes.
                Who knew the work Baldaufa or Kammaera? None. They were simply hushed up. For clarity. Recently, British scientists nevertheless agreed that the Egyptian pyramids are concrete. Yes, A.T. Fomenko made a great contribution of his own. True, it would be better for him to criticize and limit himself, and not to erect his own, as dubious historical structure, as the traditional version of history.
                Now topics are developing in the West Uwe Topper, we have Kesler, Zhabinsky, Kalyuzhny, Albert Maximov, Stepanenko (nickname Chipsa) other. A very good criticism of RU-analysis was given by a wonderful chemist and physicist who had died five years ago, and in general a cool techie Stas Pokrovsky.
                Yes, I forgot about E. Gabovich (alas, also dead).

                Retired Navy Captain G. Kostylev so walked on the maritime "antique theme" that after reading his works, there will hardly be at least one sane person who will continue to blindly believe in "the great antique battles on the seas."
                By the way, not a single combat antique ship has yet been found anywhere. But supposedly "antique merchant ships" were found above the roof. And why were they (merchant ships) classified as antique ?? Yes, by the nature of the cargo they carry. Like, there were "amphorae". Damn, yes, in amphorae in the Mediterranean and the Black Sea, in the 19th century, goods were transported.

                XXXX has very good work (I will not call it far from sin. You will find it yourself - you will find it. No - not so) University. He is probably one of the most advanced and there almost legally students are introduced not only to the traditional version of the story.
                Oh, another university I remembered, it’s not a state anymore, where it’s definitely not only the traditional view of history that is given.
                Oh, Yuri Zvyagin I forgot. He remarkably hollowed the way from the Varangians to the Greeks.
                Is there some more Bychkov, Bushkov
                Lord, yes already hundreds and thousands of people around the world publish their works criticizing the traditional version and history. And you are all Fomenko, Fomenko ....

                Start with at least this:
                Military Historical Hochma G. Kostyleva
                http://www.newchrono.ru/prcv/Publ/Kostylev/xoxma.htm
                The way from the Varangians to the Greeks Yu.Zvyagin
                http://www.e-reading.club/book.php?book=1005496
    2. rexby63
      rexby63 15 March 2016 13: 25
      +3
      linguists, chemists, physicists, astronomers, builders, mechanics.


      But historians themselves do not want to connect? Ahh, I understand this sarcasm.
      1. KaPToC
        KaPToC 15 March 2016 22: 46
        +5
        Historians despise the exact sciences.
        1. Pissarro
          Pissarro 15 March 2016 23: 51
          0
          unconfirmed fact.
          1. Spnsr
            Spnsr 16 March 2016 00: 00
            +2
            Quote: Pissarro
            unconfirmed fact.

            weird! and life?
        2. Seal
          Seal 16 March 2016 18: 47
          +1
          Exact sciences interfere with historians. And professional historians in the exact sciences do not know a damn thing. Here they (professional historians) have no choice but to despise the exact sciences.
  31. but still
    but still 15 March 2016 12: 45
    0
    The Polovtsians made up the bulk of the population of the Golden Horde, and after its collapse and absorption by the Russian state, their descendants became Russian. As already noted in anthropological and cultural terms, they were descendants of the Scythians, like the Rus of the Old Russian state, so everything returned to normal.


    The struggle for the prestigious Scythian heritage continues smile

    And what to do with the representatives of the SALT-MAYATSK ARCHAEOLOGICAL CULTURE: ALANS, BULGARS, KhAZARS, who lived TO Polovtsy in the same vast area?

    What did the Polovtsi leave after themselves? Their material traces are rather primitive in comparison with the traces of their predecessors.

    As for the Scythians, many of whom, as I understand it, the author would like to be descendants of, their burials testify to family ties with Thracian tribes (bulk mounds, the custom to bury a wife, a horse with the deceased, ceramics weapons, artificial deformations of skulls , tattoos, hairstyles, gold products, etc. etc.)
    1. Warrior2015
      Warrior2015 15 March 2016 13: 18
      0
      Quote: Boris55
      Actually, what traces the Mongols left behind themselves:

      - Written sources - 0 (zero)
      However, in the Russian chronicles (even if they are littered with very late fakes), no Mongols were mentioned even once.
      - Architectural monuments - 0 (zero).
      - Linguistic borrowing - 0 (zero):
      - Cultural and legal borrowing - 0 (zero): in our everyday life there is nothing from the Trans-Baikal nomads
      - Numismatic traces - 0 (zero): no Mongolian coins are known to the world.
      - In weapons business - 0 (zero).

      Sorry, but you either have a changed consciousness, or you are a complete ignoramus in history, archeology, etc.
      Many Mongolian coins were found - from Iran to Transbaikalia.
      Changes in the arms industry even in Russia took place and our army was largely in the 14-16 centuries. built on the Mongolian and Tatar model.
      There are many borrowings from the life of nomads; this is characteristic of their western provinces - Russia, the Volga region. China, traditionally, as he always did, turned nomads into Chinese. According to descriptions of European travelers, the Mongols in China in the 14 century were already difficult to distinguish from the Chinese.

      Quote: baudolino
      Genghis Khan was described with red hair and blond eyes. So he was one of ours too?
      There is such a thing - genetics. So, according to it, relic genes of some unknown ancient race are preserved along the outskirts of Eurasia, possibly even from the Neolithic, which just gives red hair to people of different anthropological groups (they are in East Asia, Transbaikalia, and the Paleoarctic region, not to mention Europe).

      This is Sarmatian (anthropological reconstruction according to the method of Gerasimov).
      1. Pomeranian
        Pomeranian 15 March 2016 13: 42
        0
        Quote: Warrior2015
        Sorry, but you either have a changed consciousness, or you are a complete ignoramus in history, archeology, etc.

        This is not the first time I have met the "arguments" of this individual on VO. He was reasonably proved and shown everything. But he still posts them, posts and posts. Apparently he cannot read. Or your version with a change in his consciousness is correct.
  32. engineer
    engineer 15 March 2016 12: 48
    +6
    Gumilev is also not the ultimate truth, there are many controversial statements. But the fact that modern Mongolia has nothing to do with the "Mongols" of Chingiz Khan and his grandson Batu is a fact of history and archeology. And by the way, the Great Wall of China runs 600 kilometers from Beijing and 1000 kilometers from modern Mongolia. And the loopholes in the wall are directed towards Beijing. Who defended themselves from whom and when?
  33. drop
    drop 15 March 2016 12: 56
    -1
    I was interested to read this article. It is a pity that the distinguished author did not put a portrait of Genghis Khan.
    At the beginning of the 80s, I had to arrive in Mongolia with a group of generals in order to be able to deploy new weapons. We fulfilled our task, there were meetings at the highest level. At the end of one day, the officer of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Mongolia invited me to visit the local history museum. From a group of officers, we went all 3 man. When climbing the main staircase of this museum, you are greeted by the portrait of Genghis Khan. The size of the picture is approximately 6 on 5 meters. Photographing the portrait was prohibited. Yes, we had no cameras.
    Another subtlety at that period of time - to the bottom military man in the Mongolian Armed Forces, a portion of meat per 700 was relied on per day. There were still many interesting events during this trip. I have the honor.
    1. Captain45
      Captain45 15 March 2016 13: 33
      0
      Quote: Drop
      At the beginning of the 80's, I and a group of generals had to arrive in Mongolia to be able to deploy new weapons. We completed our task, there were meetings at the highest level.

      And where were you not in Choira? And about the valley where there is a monument to a member from whom supposedly the whole genus of the Mongols went heard?
      1. midshipman
        midshipman 15 March 2016 18: 47
        +2
        Dear Yuri, representatives of the USSR Air Force Main Staff flew to the military camp and to the Choira airfield for two days. I have the honor.
      2. midshipman
        midshipman 15 March 2016 18: 47
        +1
        Dear Yuri, representatives of the USSR Air Force Main Staff flew to the military camp and to the Choira airfield for two days. I have the honor.
  34. PKK
    PKK 15 March 2016 12: 57
    +5
    Quote: todaygoodday

    Take Fomenko seriously and the company can only be in a psychiatric hospital.

    I believe that Fomenko’s mathematics can be challenged only by an even stronger mathematician, and all sorts of ballerinas, home cooks will not be able to do this.
    1. Riv
      Riv 15 March 2016 16: 21
      +3
      Why is this? I’m the best one to put a kettle on. What the hell does an academician compare with me.
  35. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 15 March 2016 13: 09
    +1
    Alexander has articles that are good, then suddenly back and forth ...
    And "consistency is a sign of skill"!

    It was long accepted that Polovtsy were almost Mongoloid in appearance, and Turkic in language. However, in their anthropology, the Polovtsy are typical northern Caucasians. This is confirmed by statues, where the images of male faces are always with a mustache and even with a beard.

    I want to ask the author 1 question - have you seen the "stone women" yourself? Well, not those who are in bed are stone and statues? laughing
    I've seen - most have Mongoloid features.

    The Türkic-speaking of the Polovtsians is not confirmed. The situation with the Polovtsian language is reminiscent of the Scythian one - with regard to the Scythians they accepted the version (not confirmed by anything) that they are Iranian-speaking.
    Actually, in the Greco-Roman sources, Scythian and Sarmatian words have been preserved - albeit a little, but there are - and so they are all clearly Iranian ("East Aryan" if you like)! And there is also the Polovtsian speech recorded in the annals (I am not even talking about the surviving direct LIVING descendants of the Polovtsians in Hungary) - a very specific language, but in many respects a Turkic basis.

    Anthropologically and linguistically, the Polovtsy were the same Sarmatians-Sarmatians as the inhabitants of the Don region, Priazovye,
    In fact, anthropologically Scythians, Sarmatians and Polovtsians are very different from each other. Below is a reconstruction of the Scythian.

    Quote: Corsair
    And who saw the Chinese and Japanese documents of the 11-12 century? And Europeans in those days didn’t go anywhere

    I personally saw that there is a lot of this good even on the net. The Japanese generally have documents of the early medieval, and buildings have 7-8 centuries.
    And so, for example, many diplomats roamed across Eurasia from Europe to the Mongols and vice versa, and Marco Polo was generally a confidant of Khubilai himself.

    Below is a reconstruction, according to the method of Gerasimov, of a representative of one of the tribes that were part of the Scythian union.
    1. Riv
      Riv 15 March 2016 16: 23
      -2
      Like a black man. A mustache with a beard is clearly attached for beauty. For obvious reasons, Gerasimov’s method does not restore them. And if you remove them - well, the Negro is, of advanced years.
    2. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 15 March 2016 18: 06
      +1
      Ratnik2015 "I want to ask the author 1 question - have you seen the" stone women "yourself? Well, not those who are in bed, but stone statues?
      I've seen - most have Mongoloid features. "
      Andrei Bogolyubsky’s mother was a Polovka. Gerasimov restored by his method the appearance of the prince. Take a look.)))) Who has questions about the Mongoloid nature of the Polovtsy?))) Although it is probably not worthwhile to deny Europioids among the Polovtsian as well.
    3. Cro-Magnon
      Cro-Magnon 15 March 2016 22: 46
      +1
      Marco Polo! Are you serious or is this a joke !? Have you read the "fairy tales" of this "traveler"? The maximum of his eastern travel is the Italian colonies in the Crimea, or rather Taurida! After all, Crimea appeared only in the 15th century! Everything else is a retelling of the fairy tales of oriental merchants, according to the principle: for what he bought, but sold! lol
      Yes, and your diplomats roamed there precisely because they didn’t go further than the Volga!
  36. tacet
    tacet 15 March 2016 13: 11
    0
    As usual, mixed sour with fresh
  37. Omsk
    Omsk 15 March 2016 13: 28
    +5
    Quote: Mangel Alys
    After the conquest of the main part of the Jin empire, the "Mongols" began a war against the Kara-Khitan Khanate, defeating which established the border with Khorezm. Khorezmshah ruled over the huge Muslim Khorezm state, which stretched from North India to the Caspian and Aral Seas, as well as from modern Iran to Kashgar. In 1219-1221 "Mongols" defeated Khorezm and took the main cities of the kingdom.

    "The political conditions under which the ethnos of the medieval Tatars developed in the X-XII centuries before the start of the Mongol movement were as follows: the Chinese and Tanguts steadily advanced from the east to the Great Steppe and eastern Turkestan, the country of the Tugyzugiz and Tatars. From the west, inevitably capturing new territories, the Khorezm shahs tried to expand to the east, representing the interests of the merchant and religious nobility of the Middle East and Iran ... Thus, the medieval Tatars found themselves between two aggressive centers of world civilizations ... The Zin empire was first defeated, as the most aggressive state, " which sent troops every three years to destroy the Tatars and capture slaves "from among them ... The defeat of the main forces of this aggressor, an empire with an almost 60 million population of Chinese and Jurchens, took in principle one year and in 1215 Beijing was taken. the empire in the near future could reach Europe ... As you can see, the aggressor who threatened all of Eurasia was not It was neutralized by medieval Tatars - tribesmen and descendants of Chyngyz Khan and their associates ... After the defeat of the Chyngyz Khan Empire in 1219 against the Tatars Chyngyz Khan began a war. were as follows; within a year, the armed forces of the Khorezm shah, a country with a population of 20 million, were completely defeated ... L.N. Gumilev gave the following assessment to this fact; "What a blessing, if you think that the Chinese did not reach Europe at the turn of our era! ... So, exactly when China had the strength and power to conquer Asia and establish Pax Sinica, the Huns and Turks, and later the Mongols stopped the aggression of China to the West. And this is the merit of the steppe peoples to humanity. "" (G. Enikeev, "In the footsteps of the black legend", 2009, pp. 98-99)
    So, dear Alexander Samsonov, you need to know the subject and present it objectively.

    and where did the Tatars come from in these years? then such a people didn’t exist yet?
    in general, history as a science is too vague to unequivocally affirm this or that. Not a single written monument of those years exists, but how can you trust the copies written in the 15-17th centuries? and what to do with the most ancient church from Spain, in which all the inscriptions are made only in Hebrew and Old Slavic?
    I was tormented by the question from school, if the Mongol was at least 100 thousand, and each had 2-3 interchangeable horses, HOW COULD THEY FEED HORSES ??? the answer, like the Mongolian horses themselves did not get food from under the snow, because this Mongolian horse will most likely drown in our snows, given the 2-3-meter snowdrifts of those years. And how did this unpretentious horse carry a bagatura bound in iron? The questions are darkness, but the answers are hidden behind the darkness ...
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 15 March 2016 13: 47
      -4
      Quote: Omich
      I was tormented by the question from school — if the Mongol had at least 100 thousand, and each had 2-3 interchangeable horses, HOW COULD THEY FEED HORSES ???

      If the army was walking along a rocky desert, then yes, nothing. And if in populated areas, then straw and hay could be taken away from the locals. Since you are not happy with the version of a horse digging grass out of the snow, then tell me how wild horses live and feel great on the Tersky coast of the Kola Peninsula? There, in general, seams and snow deal with grass, believe me, no less.
      1. Omsk
        Omsk 15 March 2016 14: 15
        +7
        Can you tell me the Arctic horse population?
        And imagine a herd of 300 thousand goals? even taking into account the division of troops into three parts. how many villages need to be captured to feed such a horde? After all, the cities were burning, along with provisions. Given the population density of Russia, and even the location of many villages in deep forests ...
        And nowhere can I find how the Batu army got to Russia. If the first campaign of the sub-idea is relatively understandable - Central Asia, the Caucasus, Volga region, then where was the second campaign organized from? From Khorezm? Samarkand? According to available sources:
        - In 1235, on kurultai in the empire's capital in Karakoram, it was decided to organize the conquest of all of Europe.
        A huge army led by the grandson of Genghis Khan Batu (in Russia he was called Batu) and the 14 princes of Genghis Khan who were given to help him went on a campaign. Having fought through the Mordovian forests, it conquered the Volga Bulgarians ...

        You need to understand that now, in our time, an equestrian will not pass there, will not pass, and at that time a huge army fought in the forests for a year, i.e. and in the mud and flood ... yes all the horses there would have broken legs, but as for the rivers, not all are passable and not all lead in the right direction, either south or north. try to take a horse and, purely out of curiosity, ride a horse through the forest.
        1. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian 15 March 2016 14: 32
          0
          Quote: Omich
          Can you tell me the Arctic horse population?


          In the autumn, I saw a piece of goals in 8-9, but how many: who counted them? But keep in mind the fact that wild horses have never been found beyond the Arctic Circle. They were brought from Yakutia. And they have taken root and feel good. And they do not die of hunger surprisingly, although there is no grass on Tersky in principle: mosses, blueberry-lingonberry thickets, heather and so on.
          How do you know about the density of the rural population of the same North-Eastern Russia? For example, in the area of ​​my summer residence, I have TWO ancient fortifications, though the shafts of one are almost smelling, but you can distinguish them. That is, at a distance of 12 km TWO fortified graveyards. Why build in the wilderness and deserts?
          Regarding the "impassability" of the forest in winter, I already told one friend that there is no less snow in the North, and the terrain is even nastier than in the Volga-Oka interfluve, and in March we went fishing WITHOUT SKI (you will leave it in a stranger) on snowshoes dragging. You can pass normally. Yes, and I strongly doubt that in Russia in winter everyone sat in the huts, not sticking out their nose because of the complete lack of roads. We drove calmly: there were roads along the rivers and through the forest. Do you really think that the newcomers, as the official story goes from Central Asia, where there is no less snow and frost, and the taiga is thicker, could be afraid of Mother Nature? I have an article posted here about Evpatiy Kolovrat, read it, if it doesn't complicate it, and express your opinion.
          1. Cro-Magnon
            Cro-Magnon 15 March 2016 23: 04
            0
            If you could eat reindeer moss and throw you into the tundra ... you look, you would survive too! What do you think, they asked those horses: do they want to live on the Kola Peninsula !? request
            1. Pomeranian
              Pomeranian 16 March 2016 09: 43
              0
              Quote: Cro-Magnon
              What do you think, they asked those horses: do they want to live on the Kola Peninsula !?

              What do you think, they asked potatoes and a tomato - do they want to live on the Eurasian continent? Or at the bison: does he want to live in the Caucasus?
              You have been given a simple fact: the Central Asian horse may well feed in the unfavorable conditions of the Arctic, why, judging by the above comments, she could not feed in North-East Russia as well, where under the snow there are GRASS, not reindeer moss?
          2. Seal
            Seal 16 March 2016 19: 35
            +2
            and the roads were along the rivers and the forest.

            You would at least read about the difficulties that Napoleon met on our forest roads !! Yes, on our forest roads, even at the beginning of the 19th century, two carriages could not part. The width of the forest "road" is two meters. And then the lower branches hit the horse's face. And the coachman at the same time. And what is two meters? This means that only two riders in a row can move along it. The length of the European horse is 2,5 - 2,8 meters. The distance between the horses in depth is at least one and a half meters, otherwise they will chew each other's tails. In total, a rider in a column on a forest road occupies ... well, 5 meters, taking into account that Mongolian horses are shorter than European ones. In total, 200x2 = 400 riders will fit on a kilometer of a forest road. Oh, what am I ??? Your notorious Mongols rode two or even three horses. As there are professional historians - one horse for the Mongol marching, the other - spare, the third - for battle. Okay, let's deprive the "Mongol" of one horse. Let them ride one, and a spare one is nearby. Well then, they will go to the column one by one (+ horse). So, 1 riders and their 200 spare horses are placed on 200 kilometer of the forest road. How many Mongols did you have who decided to establish a "yoke" in Russia? 500 or 600 thousand, right?
            1. Pomeranian
              Pomeranian 17 March 2016 10: 08
              +1
              Quote: Seal
              Yes, you would at least read about the difficulties that Napoleon met on our forest roads !!

              Napoleon walked in the summer. I am simply touched by citizens whose idea is based on a computer game, as a maximum.
              That is, if you are confident in your words on 100%, then your judgment comes out:
              1. The Volga-Oka interfluve was a forest-marshy sparsely populated desert with a small population concentrated in a couple of cities with a population of 5-7 thousand people.
              2. All annals are false. For example, the message about the Lipitsky battle of April 21 is nothing but a fake and the loss of Suzdal from various sources from 9 to 17 thousand completely depopulated the whole principality. And the further direction of the various military men, for example, against Lithuania, the crusaders and others - is all lies, fantasies and fiction? Correct, where to get the army in the desert? They sent 300 cripples, they beat everyone.
              3. Nobody has ever won anyone. The Huns, Avars, Mongols are only a lie, or a later invention under which Hitler and Stalin are hiding, because it is impossible to create a large army and transfer it without mechanical traction on the road, the tails will be eaten by the lodge.
              4. The Wallenstein Army of the 17 century, which lived exclusively on local resources - is also a lie. That cannot be, there must be a centralized supply.
              5. There was no battle at the Young. 110 of thousands of Turks and Tatars just .. further about the tails of horses.
              Well and so on. It all comes from your comments.
              Now listen to a counterargument based solely on logic.
              1. The Volga-Oka interfluve was a densely populated land. About two sites in the Vladimir region, I gave an example. Who were they built for? For chanterelles with bunnies or for the local population, for nearby unfriendly Ryazan?
              2. I myself saw a "list" of an old drawing of the 15th century, which was shown to me by a local ethnographer, on which, for example, the road is clearly indicated - the Kolomna winter road, which exactly goes to one of the fortresses I mentioned above. These fortresses have not existed since the 13th century, excavations have proven.
              3. Also, based on pure logic (see the example above), the population was enough. Roads, villages with feed for horses in the form of the same grain and hay too.
              4. 500-600 of thousands of travelers are your numbers. On the right, remove the zero, it will be close to reality.
          3. Seal
            Seal 16 March 2016 19: 35
            +2
            Yes, just 2 thousand riders on the forest road will already stretch for 10 kilometers. And 10 thousand riders - 50 kilometers. Considering the speed of the Mongolian horse and the length of daylight hours, these 50 kilometers are the maximum that a rider can pass without eating and not what during winter daylight hours. That is, if 10 thousand "Mongolian horsemen" decided to leave point "P" (Ryazan) and go along the forest road to point "B" - (Vladimir), then by the time when the forest road will have to leave point "P" start moving last rider - daylight will end crying
            Well, thank God because this forest road has already turned into one gutter, along which horses do not go, but swim in the dung and pissing of the first thousand horses. hi
            Oh, and during the night all this good will also freeze lol
            Damn, and the riders still haven’t reached anywhere. belay That is, the riders at night on this pissed and shabby road will freeze together with shit lol And you need to feed the horses with something request This is a Mongolian horse that can get grass from under the snow in snowy Mongolia. And then if more than 30 centimeters of snow falls, the Mongolian horses begin to starve, and then die. And here, in our forests, the depth of snow cover will be 2 meters. And this is higher than the growth of a Mongolian horse yes
            And here, apparently, Evpatiy Kolovrat appears in a snowdrift due to a roadside oak angry
        2. Seal
          Seal 16 March 2016 19: 57
          +1
          These horses were brought from Yakutia more than thirty years ago for their needs by one local collective farm. The collective farm closed, but the horses remained. Since then, a small herd has been wandering around the Kuzomen sands. This is a breed of Yakut horses, the most frost-resistant, due to wool and thick undercoat. They eat everything they can find, because there is not much grass here, they even eat algae. In winter, they break snow with hooves and eat reindeer moss. But the main thing is that people feed them.
          Here
          http://antonsafronov.livejournal.com/18208.html
          pictures of these horses are laid out and it is told how they beg bread from tourists and it is shown how horses eat bread from a person’s hand.
          1. Pomeranian
            Pomeranian 17 March 2016 10: 12
            +1
            Quote: Seal
            These horses were brought from Yakutia more than thirty years ago for their needs by one local collective farm. The collective farm closed, but the horses remained.

            The collective farm is alive and well, it is called "Shoots of Communism". The horses were brought in for one purpose: to get money from the feds for a targeted program. Yes, some horses come to Kuzomen, but those that hang out, for example, in the Strelna area, are unlikely. You can tell the rest about horses whatever you want to anyone, but not me. I live here.
            1. stalkerwalker
              stalkerwalker 17 March 2016 15: 13
              +2
              Quote: Pomoryanin
              Yes, some horses come to Kuzomen, and those that hang out, for example, in the Strelna region, are unlikely. The rest about horses you can tell anything and to anyone, but not to me. I live here.

              I do remember....
              And there is the village of Big Kozly (Russian spelling does not work) .... wassat
              Greetings to the locals from the former crew of the valiant super-liner "Yushar", sold to the Croats in 1996 ... hi
      2. Riv
        Riv 15 March 2016 16: 29
        +1
        The Tatars rode horses of the Turkmen breed, and they are far from always able to survive in winter without leaving a person. Actually, the fact that the Tatars did not reach Novgorod is explained by the mass death of horses closer to spring.
        1. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian 15 March 2016 16: 58
          +1
          Quote: Riv
          The Tatars rode horses of the Turkmen breed, and they are far from always able to survive in winter without leaving a person. Actually, the fact that the Tatars did not reach Novgorod is explained by the mass death of horses closer to spring.

          But did the Turkmens exist in the 13 century? winked
          And with a case of horses near Novgorod somehow ... Did they go back to the steppe on foot?
          1. Riv
            Riv 15 March 2016 17: 41
            +2
            With live Turkmen, do not ask such a question by chance. First, he will fill your face, and then explain that his ancestors have lived in those places since the beginning of time (more specifically: from the beginning of the first millennium). And it will be, characteristically, right. The Turks settled in the area of ​​modern Turkmenistan just at that time. The people formed just in time for Genghis Khan. Well, as they called their horse breed at that time, the devil knows them.

            As for "went to the steppe on foot" - the Tatar rider of that time had several replacement horses, not because it was fashionable. The point is different. Imagine: a hundred went on reconnaissance somewhere near Kozelsk. A clash with the Uruses, the horse was wounded, and running on foot is really not very comfortable. So they took a couple of spare ones with them. In addition, this ensured the maneuverability of the formations, fantastic for those times. But if you have one horse, then you will inevitably begin to take care of it. You put the trophies from the packs on the confiscated cart, harness the local peasant horse into it, and tie the war horse behind and risk it only if you have nowhere to go.

            In general, by the end of the campaign, the Tatars could no longer boast crossings of one and a half hundred kilometers a day. This is also traced on the cards. If at first Tumens were thrown between besieged cities in just a few days, then after a month the pace of the attack seriously slowed down. The Russians even managed to assemble a army on the River Sit. And the Tatars' retreat later also went very slowly, although in the beginning of spring there was still no particular debauchery.
            1. Pomeranian
              Pomeranian 16 March 2016 10: 02
              0
              Quote: Riv
              Imagine: a hundred went on reconnaissance somewhere near Kozelsk. The skirmish with the Uruses, the horse is wounded, and walking really is not very convenient.

              I will not say anything about stuffing muzzles with Turkmen, because the Turkmens, as a nation, formed 300 years after the events described.
              I got the impression that many opponents think with computer game strategies and that they draw knowledge from the works of Vasily Yan. Tell me, why do you persistently believe that the army that attacked Russia did not have infantry in principle, but only horsemen? How did the maneuverable parts of the nomads break the walls of cities? How did they fight on horseback in the narrow streets? Here, explain to me these questions, and then we'll talk about speed and other things.
              1. Riv
                Riv 16 March 2016 11: 49
                +1
                You are amateurishly confusing the terms. A nation and a nation are fundamentally different concepts. The first is ethno-cultural. The second is ethno-political. Turkmens, as a people, were formed a long time ago, and as a nation - just now.
                So the Turkmen will be right, having filled your face ...

                I do not believe that the Horde had no infantry. In fact, it was a very urbanized state, with developed agriculture, crafts and trade. There should be infantry in the army of such a state. However, here you can draw an analogy with the Cossack troops - the Cossacks also had infantry, but who was taken into it? Either Cossack Lumpen, or Russian immigrants (yes, before the revolution, these categories were different and the Cossacks did not consider themselves Russian). A reference Cossack came to the service with his horse, sometimes with weapons. From such an elite cavalry and guard were formed. Suvorov, in particular, from the cavalry had only Cossacks.

                What am I doing? The Horde could well have recruited infantry on the spot. Feudalism in the yard, no single Russian state exists, no one has ever heard of patriotism. Tell the Ryazan citizen: "Let's go rob Moscow!" - and he will go with joy (alternatively, they will rob him), return with the booty and will be grateful to the Tatar commander, who provided him with this booty. The work is not difficult. Make rams, stairs, break through the gates, the Horde will deal with the defenders - and walk, flaw, your city! Then you will unfasten the common fund for the general and went to the next city. Filthy, you say? .. :)
                1. Pomeranian
                  Pomeranian 16 March 2016 12: 34
                  -1
                  Quote: Riv
                  You are amateurishly confusing the terms.

                  For God's sake. They themselves, the Turkmen, write that they came from mixing with Oguzoys not earlier than the 11 century. We will not cling to the comma after the 100500 sign.
                  Quote: Riv
                  However, here you can draw an analogy with the Cossack troops - the Cossacks also had infantry, but who was taken into it? Either Cossack Lumpen, or Russian immigrants (yes, before the revolution, these categories were different and the Cossacks did not consider themselves Russian).

                  Not Russian, but nonresident. Damn it, about the plastuns, that they were mainly infantrymen, they lied to me ... Cossacks had special forces from the lumpen ... laughing
                  However, let us leave this topic without discussion.
                  Quote: Riv
                  The work is not complicated. Make rams, ladders, break the gates, the Horde will deal with the defenders - and walk, flaw, your city!

                  Well, this is all your speculation, which has nothing to do with reality. The Ryazan people you cite could participate in the assault, for example, of Vladimir cities, but not as full-fledged warriors, but as "hashar" - unarmed and powerless slaves, whose task was, as you write, the construction of rams, throwing ditches, a tray of ladders and the "honorific" to take the first scoop of boiling resin on the head. By the way, I strongly doubt that the construction of the "shell" took place every time under a more or less large city. Firstly, this is a huge waste of time, and secondly, what was Temuter's engineering corps doing, if not transporting and quickly assembling everything necessary? And if there are engineering troops, then they also gallop, gallop on small horses, transporting ballistae in packs? In a word, based on logic, the findrs to Russia had both light cavalry, and heavy "keshikten" and infantry, which, in fact, was blown away during the storming of cities, when mobile troops roamed the environs. I believe that the Mongols had something similar to the dragoons: to the place of the battle on a horse, and then a pyehom. It is not possible to conquer half of the then world without infantry with one cavalry.
                  1. Riv
                    Riv 16 March 2016 14: 15
                    0
                    Well, read "Quiet Don" yourself, since you don't believe me. The book is historical, so as not to tryndel about Sholokhov.

                    The construction of siege weapons did not entail any particular loss of time. In cities, building material is enough, and even a ramming together - it takes only a few hours. If the Tatars carried their siege equipment between Russian cities, then they would have managed just ten years. Russia is not Europe, the distances are slightly different.

                    No one will send slaves to the assault, and even the first. Well, this is nonsense. It's even ridiculous to assume. The first thing that a slave will shout when on the siege ladder is: "Bro, don't hit! I'm Russian, we'll beat the narrow-eyed together!" A besieged garrison can grow significantly in number after such a tactical novelty.
                    No, the infantry must be interested in victory.
                    1. Pomeranian
                      Pomeranian 16 March 2016 14: 34
                      0
                      Quote: Riv
                      Well, read "Quiet Don" yourself, since you don't believe me. The book is historical, so as not to tryndel about Sholokhov.

                      Quiet Don is one of my favorite books. With all due respect to you and the author, this novel is fiction.

                      Quote: Riv
                      The construction of siege weapons did not entail any particular loss of time.

                      Attract a dozen friends and build a ram in an hour, capable of breaking through the gates. And everything will fall into place. And they also did stone-throwing machines every time again, resembling ??

                      Quote: Riv
                      No one will send to assault slaves, and even the first. Well this is stupid. It’s even funny to suppose.

                      Reading what you wrote is ridiculous. Especially this one:
                      Quote: Riv
                      The besieged garrison can significantly grow in number after such a tactical novelty.
                      wassat

                      The use of "hashar" from the captives is a fact. Filling up ditches, dragging the same battering ram is their job. The use of prisoners as a "human shield" is also an indisputable thing, and on the stairs, if I stick a spear in your ass, yell whatever you want, but quickly climb up. And the first warrior will knock you down with a stone, an arrow, a spear or a log, because the enemies are following you along the stairs. Only fools can wait until they reach the top of the wall. By the way, I would not delude myself with any special "moral and strong-willed quality" of the inhabitants of Russia in the 13th century. Ordinary people with their fears are like mine.
                      1. Riv
                        Riv 16 March 2016 18: 00
                        0
                        What are the children's ideas about the war ... :) Do you play Starcraft? That's noticeable. I already found out everything about your knowledge, a further conversation is unnecessary. Go knit wool chain already.
                      2. Pomeranian
                        Pomeranian 17 March 2016 10: 14
                        0
                        Quote: Riv
                        Do you play Starcraft? That's noticeable.

                        Actually, I went through two real wars and grew up long ago from the age of computer games, unlike you. I have the honor!
          2. Seal
            Seal 16 March 2016 20: 08
            +2
            In general, by the end of the campaign, the Tatars could no longer boast crossings of one and a half hundred kilometers a day. This is also traced on the cards. If at first Tumens were thrown between besieged cities in just a few days, then after a month the pace of the attack seriously slowed down.

            Did you find the real operational maps of the "Mongol-Tatar" army headquarters?
      3. Severomor
        Severomor 15 March 2016 19: 51
        +2
        Quote: Riv
        ..... that the Tatars did not reach Novgorod, explain the mass death of horses closer to spring.


        Dear, well, you are a competent person, decent posts, it’s nice to read.
        Two powerful trading (and naturally) rich cities of Novgorod and Smolensk.
        They didn’t get to Novgorod .... slaughter (everything is as always)))))). And to Smolensk?
        Intelligence of the greatest army screwed up? )))
        1. aviator65
          aviator65 15 March 2016 21: 40
          +2
          Here is another nuance - not the Tatars, but the Mongols, who rode horses of the Mongolian breed through the forest thickets of early medieval Russia and besieged the cities mainly in winter, when the snow was waist-deep.
          Yes, indeed, Smolensk seems to have gone wrong, but with what stubbornness some insignificant in economic and strategic terms Kozelsk or Torzhok was besieged! And what is characteristic, these sieges happened just when there were "separatist" sentiments among the princes there, in relation to the same Tver, for example.
          1. Pomeranian
            Pomeranian 16 March 2016 09: 56
            0
            Quote: aviator65
            And what is characteristic, these sieges happened just when there were "separatist" sentiments among the princes there, in relation to the same Tver, for example.

            I would like to know the name of the Torzhok prince. Can you help me?
        2. Riv
          Riv 16 March 2016 05: 44
          +1
          In March, there is no particular thaw in northern Russia. Well, take a look outside - are there any bad roads?

          As for Smolensk, it’s a dark matter, because the Tatars actually got there. But ... they did not begin to storm the city. Why is it really a mystery. At that time, the city was richer than Kiev. There are some vague references to the negotiations, that the ambassadors of the Smolensk Tatars were executed (that's what I never believe), but I have no reasonable explanation. If the city paid off, then how much did you have to go wild so that the robbers would not be ashamed of the rest?
          1. Pomeranian
            Pomeranian 16 March 2016 09: 57
            0
            Quote: Riv
            As for Smolensk, it’s a dark matter, because the Tatars actually got there.

            They were smashed.
            1. Riv
              Riv 16 March 2016 10: 41
              +2
              "Mercury obeyed the command of the Mother of God and at night went to the enemy camp where, according to his life, he destroyed many enemies, including a certain giant who made everyone fearful with his strength. During the battle, the son of the slain giant cut off Mercury's head, but the Tatars fled in fear:" persecuted by some unknown force, they fled from the city, under which so many of the best fighters perished, and fled from the borders of Smolensk. "

              Или:

              “Having defeated the Tatars, the saint fell asleep and was beheaded by the enemies. Then, taking his head in his hands, he came to the city gates in order to tell the past ... and another icon of the Guide. "

              Yes, it will be cooler than Spielberg's Star Wars. Master Yoda nervously smokes on the sidelines and tries not to shine in vain. Darth Vader generally climbed under the bunk, so as not to touch. :)))
              In fact, the first use of a combat zombie against a bushman is described in military history.
              1. Pomeranian
                Pomeranian 16 March 2016 12: 43
                0
                Quote: Riv
                Yes, it will be cooler than Spielberg's Star Wars. Master Yoda nervously smokes on the sidelines and tries not to shine in vain. Darth Vader generally climbed under the bunk, so as not to touch. :)))
                In fact, the first use of a combat zombie against a bushman is described in military history.

                However, foreign troops did not reach Smolensk. Fact is fact.
                1. Riv
                  Riv 16 March 2016 14: 31
                  0
                  No, that’s exactly what they got. But they did not storm. I don’t know if the zombies were released, or something else, but Smolensk survived.

                  A possible reasonable explanation: Smolensk was then the gateway of Russia to Europe, and Batu was not in a position to quarrel with Europe so far. Didn't the name Mercury surprise you? Purely Russian, right? But he is not Russian either, but from Moravia, if the wiki is not lying. Climbed a little far behind the great martyrdom. Perhaps a merchant, or a priest. Such a person could easily take part in the embassy, ​​he could threaten with some kind of "trade sanctions". The Tatars treated trade with all respect. The merchant, who allowed himself too much in the conversation, was shortened by a head, but they listened to his arguments and were satisfied with relatively small compensation. Quite a logical version.

                  The army commander could simply not risk taking the richest city. Who is there to command the Tatars? If not Genghiside, then Baty would have torn off his head himself so that he wouldn’t get too much. And then we somehow agreed and there are references to the fact that the Smolensk princes fought on the side of the Tatars.
                  1. Pomeranian
                    Pomeranian 16 March 2016 15: 04
                    0
                    Quote: Riv
                    I don’t know if the zombies were released, or something else, but Smolensk survived.

                    Yes, they defeated their advance detachment and all. Zombies are not zombies, but the governor Mercury defeated them. And then you write, sorry, outright nonsense. Let's sort through the shelves.
                    Quote: Riv
                    A possible reasonable explanation: Smolensk was the gateway of Russia to Europe at that time, and Batu could not quarrel with Europe so far.

                    It is your opinion how Smolensk falls, so the whole of Europe will rise on Batu, to save heretical schismatics? I understand subtle trolling is sometimes useful, but here it is. Agree nonsense
                    Quote: Riv
                    Did the name Mercury surprise you? Purely Russian, right? But he is not Russian, but from Moravia, if the wiki does not lie. Climbed far away for great martyrdom. Perhaps a merchant, or a priest.

                    No, not surprised. As the name of the Pskov voivode Dovmont, the Moscow governor of Bobrock and others, is not surprising, all the more so since the Russians, Greek, Latin and other names were inundated in the 13 century. Moreover, the transition of the nobles to the service of another sovereign was in the order of things.
                    Quote: Riv
                    Tatars treated trade with all respect.

                    That is, the Tatars did not rob merchants in principle? According to the Smolensk annals (of course, obvious lies !!) there was no battle under Longevity, and was Mercury just a marketer with a long tongue?

                    Quote: Riv
                    The army commander could simply not risk taking the richest city. Who is there to command the Tatars? If not Genghiside, then Baty would have torn off his head himself so that he wouldn’t grab too much.

                    That is, Jebe, Burundi and Subudai were Genghisides !!! ??? Arrived ... Curtain.

                    Sorry, but after THIS, further discussion is considered pointless.
                    1. Riv
                      Riv 16 March 2016 15: 42
                      0
                      Mercury is not from Greek, but from Latin. The Greeks had Hermes. Don't you even know that? It’s sad ... And it would be better if you didn’t remember Longmost. The fact is that it is just mentioned in "The Word of Smolensk about Mercury." The source is certainly trustworthy. :))) Fighting zombies and a headless commander, remember?

                      Indeed, further discussion does not make sense. Well, what am I supposed to argue with a layman?
                    2. Pomeranian
                      Pomeranian 16 March 2016 16: 11
                      0
                      Quote: Riv
                      Well, what am I supposed to argue with a layman?

                      Quote: Riv
                      If not Genghiside, then Baty would have torn off his head himself so that he wouldn’t grab too much. And then we somehow agreed and there are references to the fact that the Smolensk princes fought on the side of the Tatars.

                      Sorry, Mr. Academician. Guilty, you should not mind in your current state. One request: tell your doctor so that you increase the dose of haloperidol. Your positive disorders are progressing. Good luck.
            2. Oldwiser
              Oldwiser 17 March 2016 12: 56
              0
              Headless Horseman - 700 Years Before Main Read laughing
              For the record! Upper class!
      4. Pomeranian
        Pomeranian 16 March 2016 09: 46
        -1
        Quote: Severomor
        And to Smolensk?

        They were beaten there. And if you are interested in the topic, read about Mercury Smolensky.
      5. Oldwiser
        Oldwiser 16 March 2016 10: 10
        0
        Quote: Severomor
        Intelligence of the greatest army screwed up?

        Presumably, they were frightened by the "indestructible iron power of the Livonian-Teutonic Order" (after all, the Battle of the Ice in 1240 has not happened yet?) laughing
    2. The comment was deleted.
  38. KaPToC
    KaPToC 15 March 2016 22: 50
    +1
    The locals didn't have that much feed
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 16 March 2016 09: 47
      0
      Quote: KaPToC
      The locals didn't have that much feed

      How do you know these things?
      1. KaPToC
        KaPToC 16 March 2016 20: 23
        0
        I have an agricultural education, I have an idea.
        1. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian 17 March 2016 10: 17
          0
          Quote: KaPToC
          I have an agricultural education, I have an idea.

          Is it the same as one citizen (see above) who believes that horses fed exclusively on hay?
          1. KaPToC
            KaPToC 17 March 2016 18: 22
            0
            But you, as a true city dweller, know for sure that the rolls grow on trees and you can argue with confidence with us, the collective farmers.
          2. aleksey980
            aleksey980 17 March 2016 19: 16
            0
            Quote: Pomoryanin
            Is it the same as one citizen (see above) who believes that horses fed exclusively on hay?

            If this is you about me, then you frankly got excited.
            I will add: I have a feeling that some people, in order to understand what they are talking about, require formulations of absolutely academic accuracy and in all cases listing the entire spectrum of those involved, directly or indirectly, in saying things. This is not just for you. And it becomes incomprehensible how they generally communicate in everyday life, in colloquial speech, where much is generally omitted, or even allegorically presented or goes in a completely obvious context.
  39. Cro-Magnon
    Cro-Magnon 15 March 2016 22: 57
    +2
    According to you, then along the entire Siberian highway there were settlements in a thousand houses with supplies of hay and straw every 5 versts ??? The example with the Kola horses is stupid! There is a concept of population density! If the army, as in the novel "Until the Last Sea", will be dispersed along the advance front and in depth for 2-3 weeks between the detachments ... then this is no longer an army! How to manage it, how to instantly gather it into a fist? On the radio !?
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 16 March 2016 09: 54
      -1
      Quote: Cro-Magnon
      The Kola horse example is stupid!

      Why is he stupid if he proves that a horse is able to feed in harsh environmental conditions? Do you think that in the 13 century near Vladimir the climate was harsher than on the Kola Peninsula today ??
      Quote: Cro-Magnon
      In your opinion, then, along every Siberian tract, were there every 5 versts of a settlement in the thousand houses with reserves of hay-straw?


      Where near Tver and Ryazan of the 13th century passed the "Siberian tract", do not remind? And I will repeat once again that only in the area of ​​the village, where I have a dacha in the middle lane at a distance of 12 km, there were TWO fortified towns. For whom were they built? To hide foxes and hares or the local population, which did not fit in one ?? And what about straw hay - have you heard anything about "opolye"? And the same excavations show that much earlier than the Mongol invasion in the Volga-Oka interfluve there were VILLAGES with a length of streets of one and a half kilometers.
      Quote: Cro-Magnon
      How to manage it, how to instantly collect in a fist? By walkie-talkie !?

      The devil knows how Napoleon and Julius Caesar fought without walkie-talkies ...
    2. Oldwiser
      Oldwiser 17 March 2016 13: 05
      0
      Quote: Cro-Magnon
      how to instantly collect in a fist? By walkie-talkie !?

      Well, if we find copper-cadmium batteries in Babylon, and "acoustic antigravity" is used in the construction of the Egyptian pyramids, then why can't a "telepathic telegraph" exist among the Mongol-Tatars? laughing
  40. aleksey980
    aleksey980 16 March 2016 17: 13
    +1
    Quote: Pomoryanin
    If the army was walking along a rocky desert, then yes, nothing. And if in populated areas, then straw and hay could be taken away from the locals. Since you are not happy with the version of a horse digging grass out of the snow, then tell me how wild horses live and feel great on the Tersky coast of the Kola Peninsula? There, in general, seams and snow deal with grass, believe me, no less.

    I note right away - NOT Fomenkoid. BUT in the official history there really are inconsistencies, pulls by the ears and outright folklore. So what is the benefit of the financial and financial institutions, Gumilevs, etc. there really is, since uncomfortable questions must be asked without fail and someone must take on this role, which the dogmatists will always "spit on", another thing is that debunking some fraud, doing them yourself is an unheard-of arrogance and bestiality. To be honest, I do not fully believe in either the official or the new stories.
    On the subject:
    A wild horse has a much lower energy expenditure (whatever you want, in Joules, calories, etc.) than that of a riding, pack, and even more fighting and all, practically, the vital activity of a wild horse is aimed at finding and obtaining food. Well, when should a horse work and carry a rider, if only in order not to die it has to constantly get food? In addition, a war horse must be kept in excellent physical shape, which in itself requires a fairly high-calorie (by horse standards) food. As for straw, for example ... Have you ever kept large livestock, horses or cows, do you know how much they need? I know, from the age of 8 they put on a haystack, and from the age of 10 my grandfather made my first little braid (thank God that by the age of 19 it was over). Straw has an extremely low nutritional value and is used only as an additive, and it is generally contraindicated for young animals due to the fact that it is a rather coarse feed. Farmers always prepare enough hay to feed the existing livestock with a very small supply, in case some of it starts to "burn" (that is, to rot), I'm not sure that there was enough salt before to pour the hay stored not in whiskers, but under the roof. So if you take away their supply, then this is minuscule, if you take away everything from them, then for the described quantity it is also minuscule, besides, the population of the villages was very small. Plus the rest of the logistics. For example, in an article about 2500 carts of stones. The spread in the volumetric weight of stone rocks is quite large, from a ton per cubic meter, to almost three. Conventional carts for transporting stones are of little use due to their low carrying capacity (500-700 kg), so it is logical that it is reasonable to carry them with heavy carts and for this you need the appropriate traction horses, the same 2500 heads (add this livestock to the riding and war horses of warriors ). But a heavy cart needs a relatively normal road, otherwise you will take it out and repair it longer than driving. River routes suggest either floating craft, but I did not hear any mention of them from the Mughals, and how to drag them between non-communicating rivers (it is possible, of course, the ships were dragged, but in those conditions it would slow down the progress sooo much). Remains "winter roads" on the ice. But even here it is not an easy task. First, there should be auxiliary "tramplers-cleavers", and this is also an additional livestock of people and horses, and the time on the march is inexorably stretched and all this time it is necessary to feed both horses and people.
    In general, tired of writing, carried away repeat , I'm calling. The invasion, I am sure that it was, like the Battle of Kulikovo, and much that, but some historians should reduce the "bream" and seriously revise the timing, opportunities and area of ​​expansion.
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 16 March 2016 17: 23
      0
      Well-reasoned reasoning. I’m not even going to dispute anything except one thing: gentlemen, comrades, do you think that with the onset of winter, life in Russia completely died away? There was no doro, no one went anywhere: neither to the bazaars, nor just to visit the neighbors? Well, it's stupid to think so. Yes, I’m already tired of giving an example about the TWO fortified towns available in the 12 radius of km. For whom were they built, if not for the locals, who did not fit in one? Princely summer cottage? And this is not even a densely populated, developed Vladimir opole ..
      Quote: aleksey980
      Remains "winter roads" on the ice. But even here it is not an easy task. First, there should be auxiliary "tramplers-cleavers", and this is also an additional livestock of people and horses, and the time on the march is inexorably stretched and all this time it is necessary to feed both horses and people.
      1. aleksey980
        aleksey980 16 March 2016 17: 48
        0
        Quote: Pomoryanin
        Well-reasoned reasoning. I’m not even going to dispute anything except one thing: gentlemen, comrades, do you think that with the onset of winter, life in Russia completely died away? There was no doro, no one went anywhere: neither to the bazaars, nor just to visit the neighbors? Well, it's stupid to think so. Yes, I’m already tired of giving an example about the TWO fortified towns available in the 12 radius of km. For whom were they built, if not for the locals, who did not fit in one? Princely summer cottage? And this is not even a densely populated, developed Vladimir opole ..

        There is absolutely nothing to argue with. But I am not saying that life froze, claims only to some figures and, possibly, some "pulled" events, but let those who sit in the archives and dig in the field understand the events, personally I can not be an expert in this, like the overwhelming majority of people, including the local community, who "dig" only among what others have posted on the Internet and, in the majority, are versions and interpretations.
        1. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian 17 March 2016 10: 41
          +1
          Quote: aleksey980
          I personally cannot be an expert in this, as well as the overwhelming majority of people, including the local community, who "dig" only among what others have posted on the Internet and, for the most part, are versions and interpretations.

          I do local history as an amateur, of course. And all my calculations on this topic are based solely on data obtained on one particular site of the Vladimir-Suzdal Principality. The conclusions are as follows:
          1. The invasion in the 30 of the 13 century to North-Eastern Russia was.
          2. Cities and settlements were looted and burned.
          3. The population of the area was relatively dense. One example is the Lipitskaya battle of April 21. The loss from 9 to 17 of thousands of warriors of fatal harm to the Vladimir principality did not cause. Putting another 30-40 of thousands of fighters for the population was not an overwhelming burden.
          4. There was enough stock of fodder (I’ll tell you a secret: the best horse feed is grain, not hay) to feed 100-150 thousand horse heads. I do not consider Subbedean an idiot who waged war without intelligence.
          5. The movement of large forces in the winter, including convoys along the territory of the Vladimir-Suzdal principality, was quite possible, for example, along the channels of frozen rivers or along roads - winter roads. Transportation of cargo on trampled snow is much easier than in summer on dirt roads, so it is possible to transport the same grain and siege park.
          I have an article uploaded here, go to my office and read about Evpatiy Kolovrat. I would like to know your opinion.
          1. aleksey980
            aleksey980 17 March 2016 17: 14
            +1
            Quote: Pomoryanin
            (I’ll tell you a secret: the best feed of a horse is grain, not hay)

            I’ll tell you a secret: I’m in the know.
            On the territories of relatively densely populated regions of the European part, it is quite natural that it was easier to move around the year and fodder there is not such a shortage. In areas with low density, all this is more problematic. Warriors are not cavalry in terms of cost and complexity of maintenance.
            And in general, he never claimed that there was no massacre and that they did not pay tribute (to this day, the subjects of the federation (states, regions, etc.) pay a tax (read "tribute") to the central administrative apparatus, and the people pay taxes to these subjects) ? Then all with each other then cut, then put up in order to cut others. This is the norm at the time.
            Those. there are facts of stabbing and conflagration, and then, who gets what from where and where - interpretations. What faithful - h.z. Recorded minuscule, and almost everything was written "from the words" and not always eyewitnesses, and an eyewitness to an eyewitness, a great strife. The lists were made by hand, and not all monks were scribes, and some were creative personalities in general, and some, perhaps, still lacked "epic character". Dates, for the most part, are also conditional. From here the versions and srachi are taken on their soil.
            Depending on the winner and his line of conduct, after a couple of hundred years, perhaps, will study the Russian-Ukrainian war of 2014-2016, with especially fierce hostilities in the Donbass. And maybe even some kind of perversion of Putin with quarries and trunks of cowards, like what was written about Beria. And what, technology, cartridges and other things there in the ground in bulk, and the rest is a matter of "correct" interpretation. request
          2. aleksey980
            aleksey980 17 March 2016 18: 45
            +1
            Quote: Pomoryanin
            I have an article uploaded here, go to my office and read about Evpatiy Kolovrat. I would like to know your opinion.

            I read it. Interesting. It's a good start, but ... "The Agriculture Sword"? Are you serious or trolling?
            You have a good version about the fortified point. And, in my opinion, this "kladenets sword" is nothing more than the choice of a good position and competent tactical planning. When Yevpatiy was in Ryazan, it would be logical to assume that he did not assemble the detachment at once (according to the text, those "whom God kept outside the city" joined him) and immediately, in a state of passion, rushed to take revenge on the Basurmans. So he had time to inspect the battle site and analyze what he saw. The place of the battle will tell an experienced warrior a lot. Therefore, he could work out some kind of plan. And, probably, even take measures that reduce the effectiveness of the enemy's main methods of waging combat.
            And about "chopped to the saddle", "bit right and left, this way and that" ... Well, you know that then they did not write reports, and also did not exist, even conditionally dry, journalism with military men and embellishment, especially magnificently - flamboyant, were the norm, moreover, for a long time and later, especially considering that the then chroniclers were almost without exception monks and had no more relation to the military cause than modern monks.
            So again: we have a described fact (especially if it is, at least indirectly, confirmed by excavations), but described not by a military man "from words", but perhaps from rumors, with an obvious folklore bias of a scribe, and then again - interpretations.
            But in general: the feeling is ambivalent ... You need to be reminded, for this a plus, but for the weaving of mythology minus.
            1. Pomeranian
              Pomeranian 18 March 2016 09: 50
              0
              Quote: aleksey980
              The Agriculture Sword? Are you serious or trolling?

              What is trolling? I believe, for example, the guys comrade Himmler were not clinical idiots, since they tried to start looking for him. The truth was not there.
              By the way, you are completely skeptical about this scenario. There are a lot of strange and inexplicable things in the world. Moreover, the possession of the Agric sword is attributed to real historical figures (see article), and there is no smoke without fire.
              1. aleksey980
                aleksey980 18 March 2016 12: 46
                +1
                Quote: Pomoryanin
                What is trolling? I believe, for example, the guys comrade Himmler were not clinical idiots, since they tried to start looking for him. The truth was not there.
                By the way, you are completely skeptical about this scenario. There are a lot of strange and inexplicable things in the world. Moreover, the possession of the Agric sword is attributed to real historical figures (see article), and there is no smoke without fire.

                In "many strange and inexplicable" I quite believe ... no, not so - I know that there is "strange and inexplicable". But one thing, something like tele- or psychokinesis, and another thing "magical" wunderwales. In addition, once what we use today, as a matter of course, would seem very "strange and inexplicable". There are simply no means of fixation and measurement yet. Therefore, while there is no explanation, there is no such thing in official science. Another thing is that sometimes the objections are similar to the resolution of the Paris Academy of Sciences: "Stones cannot fall from the sky, because there are no stones in the sky." request .
                The Germans (and not only) were also looking for Shambhala, and much more. The smoke of such a fire, probably 99 percent, in the mouths of retellers and each time this smoke is thicker and higher.
                Guys comrade. Himmler and others like them, quite centrally and purposefully doing the same thing that some are now trying to occupy with us, bringing out "Vedic" ways of life and so on, only now, and then and now, per gram of facts, there are kilograms of assumptions and fictions. The Hitlerites had a very specific goal - to promote the idea of ​​the exclusivity of the Aryans and to create an additional lever of control over the masses. So it’s not surprising that we were looking for, tested and used, any idea.
                1. Pomeranian
                  Pomeranian 18 March 2016 13: 07
                  0
                  Quote: aleksey980
                  Smoke from such a fire, probably in 99 percent, in the mouths of retellers, and each time this smoke is thicker and higher.

                  You explained everything correctly. However, I put forward just a version that seems very, very reliable to me. I pointed out in the article that everyone who owned this toy was dying from an incomprehensible disease (except for Peter of Murom, he was lucky with his wife and cured). Local historian Rodionov, who, in fact, was engaged in saber search, was completely healthy during our last meeting in the village. He was just going to dig something. And suddenly, after three weeks, she dies from a strange sore. I’m a mentally healthy person, I go through the mandatory commission twice a year, the work is like that, but to call everything simple here is a coincidence - well, it doesn’t work.
                  1. aleksey980
                    aleksey980 18 March 2016 17: 58
                    0
                    Quote: Pomoryanin
                    However, I put forward only a version that seems to me very, very reliable.

                    smile Not a single normal person, with no evidence for or against, will say "this cannot be, because it can never be" (a well-known formula). A normal person, especially a scientist, will say that at the moment there is no confirmation or that at this stage of the development of science, we can neither check nor deny. As with God:
                    -God exists!
                    -Prove that there is!
                    -And prove that no!
                    So here, it is possible that they exist or existed or will still create some kind of stray for concentration of psychophysical, mental or any other internal energy or something else. But they still need to be managed. According to the current state of evidence, the gopher may be there, or maybe they have all died request ... Who said that many of the "artifacts" mentioned here and there, which seem to be not fabulous, but epic, are not allegories? Epics, too, seem to be based on historical personalities and events, but they describe not "on the basis", but "based on", and with a clearly folklore content.
                    Quote: Pomoryanin
                    I pointed out in the article that everyone who owned this toy was dying from an incomprehensible disease (except for Peter of Murom, he was lucky with his wife and cured). Local historian Rodionov, who, in fact, was engaged in saber search, was completely healthy during our last meeting in the village. He was just going to dig something. And suddenly, after three weeks, she dies from a strange sore.

                    As a rule, those who are truly capable of interacting with such matters, and not charlatans (of whom there are more), for example, are treated, after such treatment they themselves are ill for a long time (if they do not cripple something else in the body). For 14 years this year, how I live with such a person wink . But she is not strong and does not use it, because she herself is then sick and very sick.
                    The topic, of course, is interesting, but flood is probably enough, otherwise the moderators will lead the bathhouse laughing These posts would be moved to your topic, but alas, I do not have the tools and authority.
                  2. Pomeranian
                    Pomeranian 18 March 2016 21: 27
                    0
                    Actually, I didn’t write this article with the Condachka. I consulted with many, the same Seryoga (God bless his soul) told me a lot of things. The version was such that the artifact remained either from the aliens (which I do not believe in), or from the civilization of the pyramid builders, Mohenge Daro and other things, which I have no doubt). I agree that I don’t want to go to the bathhouse, so if you do, write to PM. And lastly: The sword is reality. Believe the word.
                    Quote: aleksey980
                    14 years this year, how I live with such a person

                    And I'm 25 ... wink
    2. Seal
      Seal 16 March 2016 20: 23
      +1
      life in Russia completely stopped?

      And in what figure do you define the entire population of Rus "of that time"?
  41. Spnsr
    Spnsr 16 March 2016 17: 27
    +1
    Quote: aleksey980
    River routes suggest either floating craft, but I did not hear any mention of them from the Mughals, and how to drag them between non-communicating rivers (you can, of course, dragged the ships, but in those conditions it would have slowed down the progress very much). Remains "winter roads" on the ice. But even here it is not an easy task. First, there should be auxiliary "tramplers-cleavers", and this is also an additional livestock of people and horses, and the time on the march is inexorably stretched and all this time it is necessary to feed both horses and people.
    In general, I'm tired of writing, I got carried away with the feel, I'm calling. The invasion, I am sure that it was, like the Battle of Kulikovo, and much that, but some historians should reduce the "bream" and seriously revise the timing, opportunities and area of ​​expansion.

    and also add the use of boats, sledges, and elephants to haul load-lifting sleds! laughing believe me, a year or two will pass and they will find another artifact, or they will attribute the mammoths found in Siberia to the combat heavyweights, who dragged food and shells in the campaign — stones, and in combat conditions turned into assault units ... laughing
  42. Severomor
    Severomor 16 March 2016 23: 07
    0
    Quote: aleksey980
    A wild horse has much less energy consumption than a riding, pack, and especially a fighting one, and all, practically, the life of a wild horse is aimed at finding and obtaining food. Well, when does a horse work and carry a rider, if she just needs to get food for a reason not to die? In addition, the war horse must be maintained in excellent physical shape, which in itself requires quite high-calorie (by horse standards) food

    Verify the truth. I constantly try to reach out and post the definition of you.
    Comrades, look at everything with common sense
    10 people are 000 horses, no matter how hardy they need to be fed.
    Dear "Pomorian" tebenyovka (feeding horses in the steppe) and a military campaign are completely different things. During the day, the horse runs hundreds (HUNDREDS) meters (METERS) per day.
    I willingly believe that you and a few people walked in deep snow ..... in snowshoes or something else ...
    But there is an army and a military campaign. A person can go along riverbeds, but an army, a convoy (although they say they didn’t have a convoy))))) yeah, there wasn’t (sarcasm)

    Dear Riv! You somehow called yourself a technofascist. I sometimes to your posts, with iron arguments, simply applauded. But here's the thing with the yoke and the so-called Tatar-Mongols interferes incl. iron logic?
    I incorrectly put a smile in a post about Novgorod, they didn’t understand that. It was sarcasm and disbelief. They stopped, as they say because of the mud. Yeah. Absolutely right - in March there is no thaw. And they did not go to Smolensk. For some reason, the two largest trading cities did not plunder ???

    I repeat about the supply of the army, convoy and logistics:

    Carl von Clausewitz "1812":
    “We could never understand those who so stubbornly uphold the idea that Napoleon should have chosen a different path for his return trip, and not the one along which he came. Where could he have been content with the army besides stockpiled warehouses? What could give the undeveloped terrain of the army, which could not lose time and was forced to constantly settle bivouacs in large masses? Which food commissioner would agree to go ahead of this army to requisition food, and which Russian institution would follow his orders? After all, in a week the whole army would starve to death. ”
    1. The comment was deleted.
  • Seal
    Seal 16 March 2016 19: 00
    +1
    wild horses on the Tersky coast of the Kola Peninsula?

    Who lied to you that they were "wild"?

    These horses were brought from Yakutia more than thirty years ago for their needs by one local collective farm. The collective farm closed, but the horses remained. Since then, a small herd has been wandering around the Kuzomen sands. This is a breed of Yakut horses, the most frost-resistant, due to wool and thick undercoat. They eat everything they can find, because there is not much grass here, they even eat algae. In winter, they break snow with hooves and eat reindeer moss. But the main thing is that people feed them.
    Here
    http://antonsafronov.livejournal.com/18208.html
    pictures of these horses are laid out and it is told how they beg bread from tourists and it is shown how horses eat bread from a person’s hand.
  • Pissarro
    Pissarro 17 March 2016 17: 07
    +1
    I was tormented by the question from school, if the Mongol was at least 100 thousand, and each had 2-3 interchangeable horses, HOW COULD THEY FEED HORSES ??? the answer, like the Mongolian horses themselves did not get food from under the snow, because this Mongolian horse will most likely drown in our snows, given the 2-3-meter snowdrifts of those years. And how did this unpretentious horse carry a bagatura bound in iron? The questions are darkness, but the answers are hidden behind the darkness ...


    This is just the easiest question, since the answer to it has been tested in practice.
    During the Second World War in the Red Army was delivered from Mongolia half a million horses.
    She didn’t drown with snow laughing
    It was not bagatura that carried it (by the way, the 13th-century armor is not knightly 15th, the iron is much smaller there), but for example an easel machine gun with zinc cartridges or a mortar with mines. Which weighs more than any armor.
    Mongolian arat cattle breeders sold about half a million to the Red Army and donated more than 30 thousand horses. “At first we thought that such small horses would not take away soldiers with full equipment, But the Mongolian proverb that the strength of a horse is learned in running turned out to be true. Having passed difficult military roads on Mongolian horses, we made sure that they are strong, do not know fatigue and are unpretentious In short breaks between battles, they themselves nibbled the grass, gnawed the bark of trees and were always ready to join the battle. They sensed danger together with the owner, their gait was light and silent, so that the enemy did not notice the approach of the whole cavalry regiment, which made it possible to quietly go to the rear of the enemy. And before the long journey, the Mongol horse sniffed the owner and whinnied quietly, releasing rare drops of tears from clever eyes "..


    Leo Dovator walked for weeks on the rear of the Nazis with two cavalry divisions, without supplies. What prevented the same from doing a pair of Mongolian Tumens? Horses in the absence of supply calmly ate pasture
  • Chisayna
    Chisayna 15 March 2016 13: 37
    0
    Every year I go to Lake Dus-Hol. I drive along M-54 past Turan. I see excavations of mounds of the Scythian period with my own eyes. But no matter how much some would like, they don’t find in mounds, birch bark letters and silver hryvnias. And bast shoes by the way, too do not find.
  • bnk204
    bnk204 15 March 2016 14: 06
    +1
    Once I read Kalashnikov's book "Genghis Khan" as a schoolboy, and so. Temuchin's father, Yesugei, was poisoned by the Tatars, by the way, neighboring tribes, and then Temuchin avenged his father, defeated and cut out all the Tatars, leaving only children no higher than the axis of some kind of araba. As I understand it, these are not the Tatars who live in Tatarstan, but some other Tatars, but I still don't understand why the Mongol-Tatar army is called, which conquered half of the world. In short, I do not believe in invasion either.
    1. Mangel olys
      Mangel olys 15 March 2016 14: 18
      0
      Quote: bnk204

      Quote: Omich
      Omsk

      http://tartareurasia.ucoz.com/publ/knigi_enikeeva_gr/5
    2. Silhouette
      Silhouette 15 March 2016 16: 41
      +1
      What do you believe in? What was it? Formulate, please.
      1. bnk204
        bnk204 15 March 2016 19: 56
        +4
        It’s hard for me to write what I believe, probably easier, what I don’t believe. I do not believe in the conquest of Genghis Khan.
        History is full of mistakes, because they write a false story for their own benefit, but the truth, as always, interferes with many.
        For example, I do not believe that Genghis Khan shuffled his army, dividing into thousands, hundreds, tens. This is impossible, in ancient times people were divided into clans, tribes, and wandered, maintaining their tribal system. Each clan exhibited a squad, let’s say so, and at the head was a noble warrior, a feudal lord. They will not mix and is divided into tens and hundreds, why? unclear.
        In Central Asia, in broad steppes, not so long ago, in the 19th century, even at the beginning of the 20th century, people lived in yurts, roaming from place to place, raised livestock, did not engage in agriculture, there were no cities. The old films depict the life of nomads and one can imagine that they lived in approximately the same way in the 13th century. It is difficult for me to imagine that a formidable force emerged from these yurts led by Genghis Khan or Batu and conquered the floor of the world.
        Well, the Mongols couldn’t make an invasion right up to Hungary, conquering Russia along the way.
        1. aviator65
          aviator65 15 March 2016 21: 50
          +2
          Sometimes you just need to include logic and common sense. It is also good to have a real idea of ​​the way of life of nomadic peoples. Then many historical "common truths" begin to raise strong doubts. Only, to the deepest regret, the audience does not particularly favor those who are in doubt. hi
  • Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 15 March 2016 14: 20
    +2
    Well, where are so many cons then?!? It seems I write objective, strictly scientific things! or alternativeists, when the facts are not enough, they are knocked down by minuses?

    Quote: Omich
    and where did the Tatars come from in these years?

    The "Tatars" tribe, as noted above, is one of the tribes of the people conventionally called "Mongols". By the way, the enemies of the Chingiz clan - and therefore those who survived the bloody war were put in the front lines as suicide bombers.

    Quote: Omich
    Not a single written monument of those years exists, but how can one trust the copies written in the 15-17 centuries?
    Well, look, or better READ The Secret Tale, a genuine Mongolian historical narrative. There are also Chinese chronicles preserved in the original of the 14th century.

    I remember the words of one Chinese or Mongolian officer of the office at the headquarters written there, "What a pity, during the years of the greatest conquests, the level of education among the Mongols was almost zero and there was no developed chronicle."

    Quote: Omich
    and what to do with the most ancient church from Spain, in which all the inscriptions are made only in Hebrew and Old Slavic?
    More about this please. Have you accidentally mixed Old Slavic with Old Gothic?

    Quote: Chisain
    But no matter how much some would like, they don’t find birch bark letters and silver hryvnias in the mounds. By the way, they don’t find bast shoes either.
    In fact, the Scythians NEVER wore bast shoes. Judging by the images, they wore soft leather ankle boots.

    About the scriptures on birch bark - an open question, according to some, they probably used parchment (skin), like many other Indo-Iranian peoples.

    Here is the promised Sarmatian (scientific reconstruction), as you see anthropologically different from Scythian, but both of them are Caucasians. With dinlinov and Polovtsy - the situation is different. Just how to insert a few pictures - I do not know.
    1. Riv
      Riv 15 March 2016 16: 34
      +6
      Forget the Secret Legend. No Chinese source older than two hundred years can be considered reliable. And forget about "Altan Tobchi". It was generally written in the 18th century.
  • Chisayna
    Chisayna 15 March 2016 14: 33
    +1
    Soft leather ankle boots are ichigi or idyks. And there is Lake Chagytay-Chagatay. And changys-changis-changiz, in Tuvan it is one or the first.
  • but still
    but still 15 March 2016 14: 39
    +2
    In addition to archaeological evidence of the similarity of Scythian and Thracian burials, there are also written sources:
    1. In book 1 "Geography" Strabo writes that in ancient times the name "SKIFS" was used to name people who lived north of the modern Greeks. That is, the Thracians are also included in the Scythian ethnos.
    2. Kasiy Dion categorically declares that the Thracian tribe DAKI is a branch of the Scythians. Geta and Dacians are known to be the same people who spoke the same language as MIZA and other Thracian tribes that lived south
    3. Stephen Byzantine also writes clearly: "Skuti Ethnos Trakon" - Scythians - Thracian people.
    And the name SKIFA itself (in Greek "F" sounds in Russian "F", and in Bulgarian "T", for example: Fedor-Feodor-Theodor, Thraki-Truki, etc.) in Bulgarian the word SKITI is easily explained - Strabo conveys the meaning of the word from the Greek word for WANDERING (Σκύθας έκάλουν ή Νομάδας) - WANDERING-WALKING, WOMANING. In modern Bulgarian language the word SKIT-AM, SKIT-NIK is a frequently used word.

    So, dear author, look for the Scythian-Russian connection without looking up from the obvious Thracian-Scythian connection -.....-...-....-...... (several previous peoples before the formation of the Russians) - RUSSIAN and many other modern peoples smile If you dig well, then we conclude that the heirs of the SKIFS are many different modern peoples. Just like the heirs of the Thracians.
    1. Seal
      Seal 16 March 2016 15: 02
      +3
      1. In book 1 "Geography" Strabo writes that in ancient times the name "SKIFS" was used to name people who lived north of the modern Greeks. That is, the Thracians are also included in the Scythian ethnos.

      Yes, there is this type of "historical character" a certain "Strabo".
      How much history does oblique or cross-eyed know?
      Oh, yes, I must explain what the squint has to do with it. So after all "strabon" is not a name or a surname. This is a NAME. from lat. strabo - oblique, cross-eyed.

      So, what is the "antique" oblique (Strabo). We read in the official history: "The famous Greek geographer Strabo was born around 64/63 BC and died around 23/24 AD. He was a contemporary of the formation of the Roman Empire and the end of the Hellenistic era .."
      We think that at least one genuine line remains from him? It turns out that even the official story admits that no, it didn’t.
      How interesting write all kinds of scholars: "The first work of Strabo was the" Historical Notes "that have not reached us, conceived as a continuation of Polybius's" History ".."
      Here are the magicians !!! On the one hand, they write that they are NOT COME. But then they begin to fantasize about how exactly they were "INTENDED"!

      And when for the FIRST time the "works" of this ancient Strabo surfaced?
      "Work" by Strabo was first published by a certain Swiss philologist Isaac de Casaubon (1559-1614) in 1587.
      Before this, the works of Strabo were unknown.
      Most likely this same Isaac de Cazaubon wrote this very geographical work. And "Strabo" is his pseudonym for writing. History is silent whether Isaac de Cazaubon was cross-eyed, but it is possible that he was. If I were lame, I would most likely take the pseudonym "Claudius" - lame :)
      1. but still
        but still 16 March 2016 15: 46
        +1
        You didn’t like Strabo as a source smile okay. what can you say about Cassius Dion and Stephen the Byzantine?

        And what to do with the similarity of the archaeological finds of the Scythian and Thracian mounds? True, the style of the Scythian products is somewhat different, the "animal", apparently acquired after the SKITANIA from the Balkans in the Persian lands, there the Thracian language was also changed to one of the Iranian languages, BUT the connection and kinship of the Scythians with the Thracians is obvious smile
  • Bersaglieri
    Bersaglieri 15 March 2016 14: 48
    +2
    "Researcher Yu.D. Petukhov" is quoted by the author of the material many times. Consequently, these things are ethnofantastic.
  • Burmistr
    Burmistr 15 March 2016 14: 54
    +1
    Sorry, the article is nonsense

    official history - complete nonsense, with real history having practically nothing in common

    therefore, there’s nothing to talk about who read what is there and is trying to prove to each other here

    from That (s) I ...

    historical process (chronology) - 2nd level of priority in global governance)))
    http://zakonvremeni.ru/publications/23-outlook/2064-six-priority-of-rule.html

    we are surrounded by a sea of ​​lies, you can’t even imagine what its scale

    here somewhere I saw a dialogue about who was building the Chinese wall when))))
    this building was built in the middle of the last century, this is reliable information
  • Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 15 March 2016 15: 51
    +1
    In continuation of the topic, to make it clearer how the type of nomadic population as a whole anthropologically changed from Transbaikalia to the Urals.
    So the Scythians are about the 8-1 centuries. BC.

    Anthropologically EXTREMELY close to the Slavs. In general, no one argues with this fact in science, JUST PREFER DO NOT SPEAK.

    Sarmatians are approximately 1-5 centuries. AD
    As you can see, they are also Caucasian, but other than Scythians, in some ways they are close to Poles or even Lithuanians (therefore, there is some historical truth in Sarmatism).

    Then - various ethnic groups with different degrees of Mongoloidity (Toharas, Kushans, Dinlins, etc.) have already gone.

    And now a little astonishment. This is a scientific reconstruction of the Tocharian princess (her mummy was found in one of the "ice mounds").
    Indeed, the Caucasian type, only there is some admixture of Mongoloidity. Her hair was auburn or dark blond.

    And then the Türks and then the Polovtsians, with an even greater share of Mongoloidism, went from them. Their reconstruction later.
    1. but still
      but still 16 March 2016 16: 41
      0
      Ratnik 2015 RU Yesterday, 15:51

      In continuation of the topic, to make it clearer how the type of nomadic population as a whole anthropologically changed from Transbaikalia to the Urals.
      So the Scythians are about the 8-1 centuries. BC.

      Anthropologically EXTREMELY close to the Slavs. In general, no one argues with this fact in science, JUST PREFER DO NOT SPEAK.

      Sarmatians are approximately 1-5 centuries. AD
      As you can see, they are also Caucasian, but other than Scythians, in some ways they are close to Poles or even Lithuanians (therefore, there is some historical truth in Sarmatism).

      Then - various ethnic groups with different degrees of Mongoloidity (Toharas, Kushans, Dinlins, etc.) have already gone.



      Of course they are close anthropologically to the Slavs, because the so-called Slavs are most likely the Thracian tribes (there were 90-140 of different names).

      Sarmatians, say, about 1-5 century. Yes, it was in those territories where Scythian traces were found, then the state of Ancient Great Bulgaria (the 7th century) arose, and before that this territory was inhabited Bulgarian tribes with a different name and Alans. On the same territory is the Salt-Mayak archaeological culture, the carriers of which are Alans, Bulgarians and Khazars. After the Khazar Khaganate from the Alans, Bulgarians (made up about 60% of the population) and the Khazars, WHICH PEOPLES have occurred? Yes, and Polovtsy is possible, and other nations. I do not want to offend anyone without calling his people - many different nations happened. And then the Russians.
      The ancestors of the Thracians in the Balkans (7 thousand years BC! Culture of Varna, Mycenaean culture - even before the appearance of the ancestors of the Greeks in the Balkans, later the culture of Vinci and others) - the ancestors of the Thracians navigators - Pelasgians and other Thracian peoples - Scythians (most likely after migration to the northeast after the Trojan War, or after the conquest of part of the Balkans by the Persians) - the Sarmatians - Alans, Bulgarians and Khazars - further many nations, including Russians.
      Those. The peoples of the Balkans - Thracians - Persians - Scythians - Sarmatians - Alans, Bulgarians, Khazars - several peoples - both Russians, Ukrainians and other peoples.
    2. Bersaglieri
      Bersaglieri 16 March 2016 17: 46
      0
      Semitic type face under reconstruction.
  • Spnsr
    Spnsr 15 March 2016 16: 13
    +2
    who confidently upholds his slavish origin and backwardness, and give this comment a minus for late appearance and development.
    who believes in the sincerity and purity of the Western press and interpreters of history, and at least the great Patriotic war, go and lower your account rating!
    laughing who at mathematicians observes the lack of logic ... the cons ended, oh well what little things, there are other comments, put there laughing
    little remark
    All adult and healthy men were considered warriors who maintained their household in peacetime and took up arms in wartime.
    It reminds me of the Cossacks, there is no link from where the quote comes from, but often there is a description that, like two drops of water, is similar to the history of Russia, but is attributed to everyone, but not to Russia or to neighboring nations! ...
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 15 March 2016 18: 09
      -4
      Quote: SpnSr
      who believes in the sincerity and purity of the Western press and interpreters of history, at least the great Patriotic war,


      You know people believe or do not believe in God! Believe in the press is not necessary. We must open the books of Western authors, well, at least David Nicolas and read. You can Alan Pierce about China, there are a number of books (Google to help!) Relating to our history. You take and read. And then you feel the difference between the press and science.
      1. Spnsr
        Spnsr 15 March 2016 19: 24
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        . And then you feel the difference between the press and science.

        I'm just about science, which contradicts itself, or where the events of some are attributed to others ...
        and about the press, it also forms the perception and background of the environment, and then someone writes a work in which he describes events, it's about modernity ...
        and the past, it’s nothing without the present, about extinct civilizations, it was either earlier, when the present civilization wasn’t there, and we didn’t touch, or it’s a fiction ... and at least it’s impossible to look at the past without considering the present, but the present to me says that people on the planet appeared at the same time, there are no ancient peoples and young people, and not a single people disappeared anywhere, just for one reason or another it was renamed one or the other (examples Ukraine, Turkey ... yes, you can list a lot, for example, the collapsed Yugoslavia and education on its basis are many different, with the exception of those who have remained faithful to their past ...)
        and this is at least equality ...
        Moreover, the events of today tell me that the territory of Russia, including before the time of troubles, was such, and in the development of the mental and technological it was never inferior to the West ...
        and talk about the fact that Peter1 type pulled Russia out of the clutches of barbarism empty, especially since both Stalin and Putin snatched from such claws ... and again Russia is technologically and mentally backward ...
        it’s in general terms, for me it’s more like the truth here there is a demotivator, it is like the Russian Empire and the USSR and with each new era less and less and with Ukraine now ... and with all these disputes about history there’s an even greater opportunity to the fragmentation and reduction of Russia ... and the most amazing thing is that people are shown crafts about the antiquity of these or those and about the late appearance of Russia and people believe and convince others with insults ..
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 16 March 2016 06: 42
          0
          You all this is not readable on the basis of what you wrote? As I understand it, you have a mess in your head, because the ambiguity in words is, first of all, ambiguity in thoughts. Second, it is clear that you have not read either the books of Western authors or their articles. You have the most vague ideas about science, which is also obvious. Well, and your Russian language was clearly the second foreign language, which is already there. And you are showing this to us with an aplomb worthy of a better application. Maybe it's better to use a shovel in your hands and into "dirty work" - to dig the earth ?!
          1. Spnsr
            Spnsr 16 March 2016 08: 45
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            You all this is not readable on the basis of what you wrote? As I understand it, you have a mess in your head, because the ambiguity in words is, first of all, ambiguity in thoughts. Second, it is clear that you have not read either the books of Western authors or their articles. You have the most vague ideas about science, which is also obvious. Well, and your Russian language was clearly the second foreign language, which is already there. And you are showing this to us with an aplomb worthy of a better application. Maybe it's better to use a shovel in your hands and into "dirty work" - to dig the earth ?!

            hurt? and so right away with insults? Isn’t the fact:
            and talk about the fact that Peter1 type pulled Russia out of the clutches of barbarism empty, especially since both Stalin and Putin snatched from such claws ... and again Russia is technologically and mentally backward ...

            and this is not objective:
            and the past, it’s nothing without the present, about extinct civilizations, it was either earlier, when the present civilization wasn’t there, and we didn’t touch, or it’s a fiction ... and at least it’s impossible to look at the past without considering the present, but the present to me says that people on the planet appeared at the same time, there are no ancient peoples and young people, and not a single people disappeared anywhere, just for one reason or another it was renamed one or the other (examples Ukraine, Turkey ... yes, you can list a lot, for example, the collapsed Yugoslavia and education on its basis are many different, with the exception of those who have remained faithful to their past ...)

            as one of my colleagues used to say "this is life, and this is war", but it is objective

            a little gag was:
            Moreover, the events of today tell me that the territory of "Russia", including before the turmoil, was like that, and in the development of mental and technological development it never yielded to the West ... this is in general terms, for me it looks more like the truth there is a demotivator
            , this, like the Russian Empire and the USSR, and with each new era, is becoming less and less with Ukraine now ... and with all these disputes about history, there’s even greater opportunity for the fragmentation and reduction of Russia ... and the most amazing thing is that people are shown crafts about the antiquity of these or those and about the late appearance of Russia and people believe and persuade others with insults ..
          2. Spnsr
            Spnsr 16 March 2016 09: 13