Expedition to the ancestors: a stopover or agro-revolution on the ground

Still from the film “One Million Years BC” (1966). A more cultured woman treats Tumak to a vegetable from the garden! It could be so, and why not?

“...for the earth itself produces
first the greens, then the ear,
then the full grain in the ear.”
Mark Gospel 4:28

Is it really not clear that your house is a prison,
And they take you for a lackey?
And I... I walk on the rooftops by myself,
And I don’t know how to lick hands.
Yes, you can follow the bear's trail,
Participate in a fight.
I’m sorry, but you won’t see freedom!” –
That's what the Cat said to the Dog!
Author: Maid of the Mist

Migrants and migrations. The main direction of the articles in our series is the story about the fate of Homo Iter, that is, the “traveling man,” because throughout his ancient history, as we have already seen, all he did was move from one region to another, from continent to continent. However, this path “was not easy and uneasy.” And although our ancestors walked forward during the day, and perhaps even at night, their journey took not years, or even centuries, but whole thousands of years, during which, by the way, many neoanthropes and even the same Neanderthals lived in the same places.

Stone knife from Denmark. It was very difficult to make one, but our ancestors learned how to make such knives! National Museum of Denmark, Copenhagen

Less dependency, more people!

But living in the same places, people experienced difficulties in obtaining game, which became frightened, or even left the places where it was intensively exterminated. The transition from gathering and hunting to agriculture helped cope with the emerging problem of food shortages, and at the same time it changed humanity itself. But this required domestication (i.e. domestication) of plants and animals in limited areas. The oldest traces of agriculture, dating back 10 years, were discovered by archaeologists in the Levant, and from there it spread to Europe, North Africa and Central Asia.

I wonder if women of that time were as warlike as shown in “A Million Years...”. And yet... how covered were they with clothing?

In the 150 years preceding the “agro-revolution,” neoanthropes, who had previously lived on pasture, populated almost the entire planet, regularly making seasonal migrations in search of prey. But since they wandered on foot, mothers carried their children on themselves, while a woman could neither feed nor carry more than one child. Therefore, “extra” children may have even been killed. Therefore, human population growth remained low for millennia. But having learned to breed certain species of animals and plants, humanity began to depend less on many random factors of the nature surrounding them, replacing this complex dependence with a simpler one - on only a few representatives of flora and fauna.

Rock art of Tassilin-Adjer (North Africa), VI thousand years BC. e. Cows and a dog with a crochet tail!

From gathering to sowing

By the XNUMXth millennium BC. e. some groups of neoanthropes switched to sedentary life in fertile areas. There was enough food there all year round, and as a result the population began to increase at a rapid pace. This forced the transition to agriculture, which made it possible, through only a slight additional increase in labor costs, to obtain significantly more food products per unit area. Settlement, population growth and dependence on agriculture immediately led to an increase in the number and size of settlements, collectively contributing to the development of more complex social relations, the emergence of classes, and ultimately cities and civilization.

The oldest traces of agriculture are the remains of wild species, only slightly modified by human intervention. It is known that the first food crops were grains and legumes, the seeds of which are rich in nutrients such as carbohydrates and proteins. And besides, they are also easy to store and germinate after sowing.

Agricultural polyculturism: where did it come from?

If scientists are still arguing about whether Homo sapiens (or his ancestors) appeared in one place or in several, then with regard to agricultural crops it is known for sure that they originate from several centers of domestication. What they have in common is only the thermal regime, that is, the presence of natural climatic conditions convenient for farming.

Thus, Southwestern and Central Asia gave humanity wheat, rye, barley, oats, lentils and peas (regular and Turkish), as well as radishes, carrots and parsnips. Here, apple, pear, date palm, fig, grape, and olive were domesticated.

From Southeast Asia it received rice, soybeans and mung beans, as well as taro and yams. Apricots, bananas, citrus fruits, mangoes, coconuts, sago, eggplant and tea all come from China. Or rather, from the territory that is China today, and again, from Southeast Asia.

Tropical Africa is sorghum, millet and cowpeas (and also pigeon peas), oil palm, sesame, coffee, tamarind and watermelon.

Mexico is corn and beans, as well as red peppers, pumpkins, tomatoes and avocados.

In many regions, root crops now play an important food role, for example, in the temperate zone - these are potatoes that were once cultivated in the Andes, and in the tropics - cassava (cassava), yams, sweet potatoes and taro, which also come from there.

The north of South America gave humanity guava and pineapple, cashews, cocoa, peanuts and quinoa.

And India became the homeland of cucumbers, where their non-domesticated relatives still feel great there.

Even Europe, which is cool in terms of climate (though the south and the Mediterranean region) can boast that it has also sufficiently enriched the agricultural culture of Homo sapiens. The same carrots, turnips, beets, radishes, peas and flax became domestic plants here.

The revolution has a beginning, but no... end!

Archaeological evidence suggests that the agricultural revolution began about 10 years ago, that is, during the Neolithic era in the so-called “fertile crescent” region of Southwest Asia. Charred seeds and chaff of barley, wheat, various legumes, as well as bones of domestic goats and sheep are found here. Moreover, judging by radiocarbon dating, agriculture arose approximately 000 years earlier than cattle breeding.

Agriculture spread gradually, paralleling the growth of settlements, the development of irrigation and terracing methods, and the introduction of fruit crops, in particular the date palm, figs, grapes and olives. By the end of the Western Asian Neolithic (ca. 6 years ago), agriculture began to be practiced in Europe, North Africa, Central and South Asia.

In China it appeared in the period from 9000–8000 BC. e., in America - approx. 5 years ago and Tropical Africa - 000 years ago. By the start of global European expansion in the 4th century, agriculture and pastoralism fed Eurasia, Africa, and Central and South America. That is, the selection of domestic plants continued for a very long time. It hasn't ended today...

Watercolor copy of a cave painting of a wolf-like dog, Font de Gosme cave, France. The drawing is 19 years old. Watercolor painted in 000 by archaeologist Henri Breuil

In line for domestication...

Plants were domesticated on all inhabited continents except Australia (farming arrived there with European colonists in the XNUMXth century), but animals were domesticated primarily in Western Asia, where people first acquired sheep, goats, pigs and cows, and later donkeys and camels. . Pigs and cattle were also domesticated independently in South and East Asia, where humans first introduced chickens.

They began to raise cows and pigs on their own in Europe; In the southern Russian steppes, a horse was tamed for the first time, which became an event of paramount importance. But few domestic animals appeared in the New World: in North America it was the turkey, and in the South it was the llama and alpaca. But in Africa and Australia there were no animals suitable for domestication at all.

Animal domestication map:
A – southwestern steppes of Eurasia, B – Central Asia, C – Southwest Asia, D – Indus Valley, E – China and Southeast Asia, F – Southeast Asia, G – North America, W – Mexico, I – northern part of South America, K – region of the high Andes, L – Central Africa;
1 – reindeer, 2 – horse, 3 – pig, 4 – cow, 5 – goat, 6 – donkey, 7 – dromedary camel, 8 – Bactrian camel, 9 – sheep, 10 – yak, 11 – zebu, 12 – buffalo, 13 – chicken, 14 – turkey, 15 – guinea pig, 16 – llama, 17 – alpaca. Rice. A. Shepsa

But the first was a dog!

But the question is, which animal was the first to be domesticated?

And the answer to it will be truly surprising, although quite logical - not a pig, not a cow or a sheep, but... a dog! Fossil remains of domesticated dogs have been found in Siberia, and the age of a domestic dog from the Altai Razboinichya cave, discovered back in 1975, is estimated at 33,5–34 thousand years.

The remains of ancient dogs were also found in the Czech Republic (Předmosti). Here their age dates back to 24–27 thousand years BC. e., in Ukraine - 15 thousand years BC. e., in America, Utah - 11 thousand years BC. e., China - 7–5,8 thousand years BC. e. Moreover, there are the remains of a dog buried next to people - this is the Bonn-Oberkassel dog, age 14 years.

Site of Neolithic people. Illustration from a textbook on the history of the Ancient World for grade 5. 60–70 last century

Tells the dog's menu...

Interestingly, a study of the mitochondrial DNA of the oldest domestic dog in America (from Alaska) aged 10-15 thousand years old showed that its ancestors separated from other dogs about 16,7 thousand years ago.

It turned out that during its lifetime this dog ate fish and the meat and bones of seals and whales. That is, this confirms the hypothesis that the first migration of people and dogs to America took the northwest Pacific coastal route, and not along the central continental corridor between the glaciers.

Big and furry...

What were they like, the first domestic dogs? First of all, let's say that the structure of the skull of prehistoric dogs was very different from prehistoric wolves. In addition, prehistoric dogs were large and most likely furry. The dog is considered the first animal that man managed to domesticate.

But further in the history of the relationship between man and dog, everything is covered in “dark darkness.” True, it is believed that dogs took the first step towards getting closer to humans. They ate scraps at the sites of primitive people, gnawed bones, and accompanied people on hunts. And people realized that dogs were useful to them and began to breed them on purpose, discarding the stupid and noisy ones, preserving the lives of the smart and obedient ones.

The benefits of dogs for primitive hunters were obvious: they helped hunt, guarded camps, on cold nights dogs slept with people and warmed our ancestors, however, primitive people sometimes ate prehistoric dogs. And people appreciated dogs already in that distant time, as evidenced by the burials of dogs, and they were often buried with their owner.

In 2020, it was proven that modern wolves and dogs have different genetic lines and, therefore, are not relatives, which means they came from different ancestors. It is possible that the dog's ancestor was a Pleistocene wolf, which later became extinct.

Well, just a very wild domestic cat! It is believed that the desire to chase a running mouse is inherent in a cat at the genetic level. https://pets-expert.ru

It wasn't cats that got people interested, it was cat people!

In the same area of ​​the “fertile crescent” and also “not on the move”, but already during sedentary life, the domestication of the cat took place. For a long time it was believed that cats were domesticated in Egypt 5-6 thousand years ago. But in 2004, French archaeologist Jean Denis Vigne found a human grave on the island of Crete dating back to the 10th–XNUMXth millennium BC, and half a meter away from it another grave of a kitten. But cats did not live on the islands of the Mediterranean Sea, which means that humans brought cats to Crete, and that cats were domesticated more than XNUMX thousand years ago.

Today it is believed that approximately 10,5 thousand years ago, representatives of the cat tribe began to bring tangible benefits to people, primarily in the lands of Palestine. They began hunting mice that bred near the granaries, and thereby attracted the attention of the inhabitants of the local settlements. They began to feed the cats and lure them to the houses, and children played with the kittens. This is how cats were gradually and imperceptibly tamed, although elements of savagery are still preserved in them. Cats do not depend on humans when choosing a mate, they are excellent at getting their own food and are able to survive in a wide variety of weather conditions.

Even a modern cat can spend a whole day in a tree in winter, only occasionally going down to the grocery store to ask compassionate people for food. And you can be sure that the kitty will get hers!

Nevertheless, in ancient times cats were highly valued. In the same Egypt, a cat turned into the goddess of joy, love and fun Bastet, dead cats were mummified, and the death penalty was imposed for killing a cat! Cats were forbidden to be taken out of Egypt, but apparently they were taken out anyway.

In addition, they also came to Europe from other places, for example, from Western Asia, so that already 2 thousand years ago they were widespread here.

To be continued ...

Comments

[tlauicol]

So it was) ) Good morning everyone! Read the article and enjoy

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

The dog is considered the first animal that man managed to domesticate.

I did not expect such betrayal from Vyacheslav Olegovich!!!
Although you can’t argue against the truth, it remains ironic to add that “the cat is the first animal that tamed man”!!!
Good morning everyone and have a nice day!
Regards, Kote!

[Luminman]

Quote: Kote pane Kohanka

“The cat is the first animal that tamed man”!!

A cat is a useless animal, as Polygraphych also said...

[Richard]

Herbivores and chickens are considered the first domestic animals after dogs.

This is where, as a rural resident, I would disagree with the author. Let's not touch the chickens - they will find food for themselves in any pen and can overwinter in caves, but herbivores in pens can find natural food only in certain seasons, and even during the warm period they require regular feeding migration - changing pastures. It would be more logical to assume that people initially began to domesticate not herbivores, but omnivores - pigs and the like. It is easier to feed them - there is no need to prepare food for the winter. A good example is the modern wild tribes of the Amazon aborigines. Their villages are inhabited not by goats and swamp deer Blastocerus, but by peccary pigs and monkeys. They are first caught by hunting, kept in captivity - and their offspring, “live canned food”, born in captivity, walk freely during the day through the villages of the aborigines and look for food and scraps for themselves. They are driven into pens only at night.

[kalibr]

Quote: Richard

This is where, as a rural resident, I would disagree with the author.

Richard is here, I can't say anything. Don't know. I didn't come up with it myself...

[Richard]

Yes, I’m not disputing you, or your source, which you did not indicate - I’m just thinking from a practical point of view.
Good afternoon, thanks for the interesting article.

[shikin]

The mountain villages of Svaneti (Georgia) used to be full of such semi-wild pigs, but now I don’t know. They ran around on their own, like dogs. And the streets were very clean :)

[ANB]

Come to Abkhazia and travel south of Sukhum.
Free-range cows and pigs.

[Alexey Alekseev_5]

And in Yakutia I saw small shaggy horses. At -45 they wandered around the village and the surrounding area and when asked who they belonged to, no one could say anything. The natives considered them part of the landscape

[Sergey Sfiedu]

but herbivores in pens can only find natural food in certain seasons,

Who knows. Most likely, it was not adult cows and goats that were tamed, but calves, kids and lambs. Moreover, on the Central Russian Plain, and in the Levant, where you can find grass even in winter

[3x3zsave]

I did not expect such betrayal from Vyacheslav Olegovich!!!
Dogs rule!!!
In dog wee trust!

[Frettaskyrandi]

The oldest traces of agriculture, dating back 10 years, were discovered by archaeologists in the Levant, and from there it spread to Europe, North Africa and Central Asia.

The oldest traces of agriculture were actually found in the Levant, on the southern shore of Lake Gennesaret in modern Israel (Ohalo II). Only their age is 23 years (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC000/)

[Eugene Zaboy]

Archaeological evidence suggests that the agricultural revolution began about 10 years ago, that is, during the Neolithic era in the so-called “fertile crescent” region of Southwest Asia. Charred seeds and chaff of barley, wheat, various legumes, as well as bones of domestic goats and sheep are found here. Moreover, judging by radiocarbon dating, agriculture arose approximately 000 years earlier than cattle breeding.

Agriculture spread gradually, paralleling the growth of settlements, the development of irrigation and terracing methods, and the introduction of fruit crops, in particular the date palm, figs, grapes and olives. By the end of the Western Asian Neolithic (ca. 6 years ago), agriculture began to be practiced in Europe, North Africa, Central and South Asia.

Rather, in the "fertile crescent" agriculture, or at least its basic foundations, came from Eurasia. The development of agriculture in the “fertile crescent” is too explosive. There wasn’t, there wasn’t, and suddenly an explosive variety of wheat, barley, legumes and all in one area appears. Moreover, in time it is quite close to the period of residence of the Eurasian population in the region, which moved south due to the Ice Age. Probably, the combination and exchange of accumulated skills led to the rapid growth of agriculture and the diversity of crops grown.

It was the narrow passages between the Mediterranean, Black and Caspian seas that ensured a high concentration of population in the area of ​​the “fertile crescent”, which ensured a variety of agriculture in a short period of time.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

It's the narrow passages

Come on. What do passages have to do with it? To get a large population, people first had to find something to eat. God knows where the ancient Natufians came from, but God himself ordered them to switch to agriculture when, after the Ice Age, the hills turned green with thickets of wild wheat and barley. However, not only in the Levant. The first Cossacks who came to Semirechye were amazed by the fields of wild barley. It was a sin for ancient people not to take advantage of such a gift - they could forget about nomads and build permanent huts and dig granaries (pits). Moreover, the first experiments took place even before the Younger Dryas, but when it ended 11 thousand years ago, it finally became warmer, the grains began to sprout, and then the “explosive growth” began, first of intensive gathering, and then of agriculture. Well, settling down made it possible to engage in livestock farming. First in the Levant, but not only - independently of it, there were several more centers of initial domestication of plants - if memory serves - in Central Asia, China, East Africa, Mexico (with its surroundings) and Peru (with its surroundings).

[Eugene Zaboy]

Liked! Especially about the first Cossacks. Impressive!

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

The first Cossacks who came to Semirechye were amazed by the fields of wild barley.

Did they tell you this themselves? Or grandpa?

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

Moreover, the first experiments took place even before the Younger Dryas, but when it ended 11 thousand years ago, it finally became warmer, cereals began to sprout, and then the “explosive growth” began, first of intensive gathering, and then of agriculture.

There is a serious contradiction hidden in this sentence.

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

God knows where the ancient Natufians came from, but God himself ordered them to switch to agriculture when, after the Ice Age, the hills turned green with thickets of wild wheat and barley.

On the one hand, you associate the appearance of cereals in the Levant with the influence of the Ice Age, on the other, you consider cereals to be typical plants of this region. Most likely, they came with migrants from the North fleeing the pressure of the glacier. This is the only way everything will fall into place. Naturally, the crops were subjected to selection at the level of that time. This is approximately the same as the distribution and selection of the walnut, from the wild state, with a hard shell, to the cultivated walnut and the South American pecan, which, apparently, originated from the walnut. So, wild fields of wheat and barley may not be as wild as the pecan groves in the Amazon jungle.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

Did they tell you this themselves? Or grandpa?

It's not nice to bully. This is from a book from the Soviet period, dedicated to the archeology of the Neolithic in Turkmenistan. Didn't you know that the Cossacks lived in Semirechye?

On the one hand, you associate the appearance of cereals in the Levant with the influence of the Ice Age, on the other, you consider cereals to be typical plants of this region.

There is a contradiction in your head. Barley and wheat are typical plants of this region; their remains, subjected to heat treatment, were found on the teeth of Neanderthals in Iraq. But when it’s cold, they grow poorly; a tribe’s economy cannot be built on them. But as it gets warmer, the time has come for cereals.

Most likely, they came with migrants from the North fleeing the pressure of the glacier.

Why suddenly? Where have you seen wild wheat in the North? There are a few islands in the very south of Europe, the northernmost is Crimea, but very, very few. And in the Middle East and Central Asia it is still growing. And how do you imagine “brought”? In your opinion, did the Cro-Magnons sow wheat? He's up for the Nobel Prize.

So, wild fields of wheat and barley may not be so wild after all.

.
Yeah. You've done something completely strange. Wild wheat differs from wild wheat both externally and genetically, and wild wheat and barley from the Levant have been studied like no other plant.

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

It's not nice to bully. This is from a book from the Soviet period, dedicated to the archeology of the Neolithic in Turkmenistan. Didn't you know that the Cossacks lived in Semirechye?

It's not that I'm being sarcastic, sorry. A book from the Soviet period is certainly good; it gives an idea of ​​the level of knowledge of that period. However, everything flows and the understanding of human history changes every day, following discoveries. Is it possible to say today that Cossacks existed during the Ice Age, even if the domestication of horses during that period looks doubtful? What is a Cossack without a horse?

In your opinion, did the Cro-Magnons sow wheat?

Again, Cro-Magnons, from the French town of Cro-Magnon, are unique in their own way. They are distinguished by an unusually large brain, comparable in volume to Neanderthals, and are no longer repeated. Or did I miss something?

[Sergey Sfiedu]

Is it possible to say today that Cossacks existed during the Ice Age, even if the domestication of horses during that period looks doubtful? What is a Cossack without a horse?

Continues to be naughty. Those. essentially nothing to say.

They are distinguished by an unusually large brain, comparable in volume to Neanderthals, and are no longer repeated. Or did I miss something?

Missed it. Firstly, the Cro-Magnons are not only the inhabitants of the Cro-Magnon cave, but all the sapiens of Paleolithic Europe. And their brain, at least in average and more than in modern people, it fits well within the species boundaries of the norm. Secondly, we cannot definitely say whether Cro-Magnons were smarter than modern sapiens. Nowadays, intelligence does not depend on the size of the brain, if it (size) falls within the normal limits.

[Eugene Zaboy]

It is difficult to determine how long the Cro-Magnons lasted and what happened to them. Presumably they were gradually absorbed into the European populations that came later.

Actually, Britannica writes this. In fact, with Cro-Magnons the question is uncertain. Especially with the find in the town of Cro-Magnon,

[Sergey Sfiedu]

What's the question? Britannica writes a well-known truth. It looks like you simply have a misunderstanding of the term Cro-Magnon. I’ll try (from memory) to explain.
Cro-Magnons -
- in the narrow sense - people whose remains were discovered in the Cro-Magnon cave.
- in a broader sense - sapiens who lived in Europe 50-20 thousand years ago.
- in an even broader sense - the entire Paleolithic sapiens population of Eupropia.
What specifically bothers you? What is so supernatural discovered at Cro-Magnon that we must reject existing ideas about the sapiens of Europe?

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

I'll try (from memory) to explain.
Cro-Magnons -
- in the narrow sense - people whose remains were discovered in the Cro-Magnon cave.
- in a broader sense - sapiens who lived in Europe 50-20 thousand years ago.
- in an even broader sense - the entire Paleolithic sapiens population of Eupropia.
What specifically bothers you? What is so supernatural discovered at Cro-Magnon that we must reject existing ideas about the sapiens of Europe?

The fact is that the article from Britannica directly states that not everything is certain with the Cro-Magnons.

It is still hard to say precisely where Cro-Magnons belong in recent human evolution

It is also stated:

The prehistoric humans revealed by this find were called Cro-Magnon and have since been considered, along with Neanderthals (H. neanderthalensis), to be representative of prehistoric humans.

Or in Russian:

The prehistoric people discovered by this find were called Cro-Magnons and have since been considered, along with Neanderthals (H. neanderthalensis), to be representatives of prehistoric humans.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

It is still hard to say precisely where Cro-Magnons belong in recent human evolution

So will we focus on Britannica? Well, let's also connect VIKI! However, one can agree with them - they didn’t write that the Croms are not sapiens, but wrote “it’s difficult to say what place they occupy in the recent evolution of man,” which can be understood as you wish. Indeed, modern Europeans basically descendants of later migrants, not Cro-Magnons, so there seems to be nothing to complain about. Instead of gaining knowledge from encyclopedias, read anthropologists.

The prehistoric people discovered by this find were called Cro-Magnons and have since been considered, along with Neanderthals (H. neanderthalensis), to be representatives of prehistoric humans.

Here you can subscribe to every word without a doubt.

[Eugene Zaboy]

I will continue to develop the previous one. What else Britannica says:

Cro-Magnons were the first humans (genus Homo) to have a prominent chin.

Или:

Cro-Magnons were the first humans (genus Homo) to have a prominent chin.

What is all this for? Where the Cro-Magnon originated and from whom is not clear. One thing is clear, he, along with the Neanderthal, is considered the ancestor of man. If a hominid came to Europe and, after contact with a Neanderthal, turned into a human, then the homeland of Homo Sapiens is Europe. If it’s the other way around, then it’s also Europe, but at a stretch, because of the jaw. However, the timing is unclear. Since the ancestors of the Neanderthals lived in Europe for more than 3 million years. This is where the question arises. When man came out of Africa. Again, which one of them is a person? The one with the brains, or the one with the big jaw?

[Sergey Sfiedu]

Cro-Magnons were the first humans (genus Homo) to have a prominent chin.

Is anyone arguing?

Where the Cro-Magnon originated and from whom is not clear.

Game is wild. March to the site anthropogenesis.ru and the forum of the site "Problems of Evolution".

One thing is clear, he, along with the Neanderthal, is considered the ancestor of man.

Right now. You personally can think whatever you want. And anthropologists have not argued for half a century about who, how and where. The Neanders and Croms were not human ancestors. Both are people. Only Neander is H.neandertalensis, and Cro-Magnon is the European populations of H. sapiens (and, by the way, Cro-Magnons are not a single genetically and morphologically wave, but rather diverse people in terms of time and routes of arrival in Europe, morphology and genetics). At least for the sake of decency, read the books of our and foreign popularizers - Drobyshevsky, Sokolov, Dawkins, Harare, etc. Well, if you read Science and other Western magazines, articles periodically appear there on the problems of evolution.

[Eugene Zaboy]

I had just decided, on the basis of your previous post, that points of contact had begun to appear for us, when we again jumped over the bumps.

Firstly, I refer to Britannica, because it is a serious accumulating work of outstanding specialists on the topic. It is difficult to argue with their opinion, which has been edited many times.

Drobyshevsky does not always inspire confidence, because he gets carried away and takes a subjective position, drawing strange conclusions. Often, without noticing it, he literally quotes Klesov, and then pours water on him as if from a bucket. Not very correct behavior.

The lyrics are over.

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

One thing is clear, he, along with the Neanderthal, is considered the ancestor of man.

Right now. You personally can think whatever you want. And anthropologists have not argued for half a century about who, how and where.

Let's be objective and pay attention to important points regarding Cro-Magnons, especially from

a shallow cave at Cro-Magnon near the town of Les Eyzies-de-Tayac in the Dordogne region of southwestern France

.

Why did I get attached to this? Are you confused by the dates?

The human bones found in the topmost layer proved to be between 10,000 and 35,000 years old.

This is nonsense! The find dates back to 10 - 35 thousand years ago? Sculpt whatever you want.
It’s one thing if they ended up there 10 thousand years ago, and quite another if they ended up there 35 thousand years ago. Before the Ice Age and after the Ice Age ends and everyone claps their hands. 1. I would like to see the results of DNA research, where are they?
2. For some reason, no one thought to conduct research on the effects of freezing on bones for 25 thousand years. Isn't it strange?

Are you sure that after 25 thousand years, with repeated annual freezing from the bones, something will remain except molecules? And there are whole bones.

It would seem that this question lies on the surface and the results would significantly narrow the time period. This is probably not beneficial for too many people. If they ended up there about 10 thousand years ago, then these are practically modern people; if 35 thousand years ago, then they may turn out to be direct descendants of Neanderthals. Both results break the hypothesis of human exit from Africa. That's all.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

This is nonsense!

What other nonsense? I suspect that the people from the Cro-Magnon cave are of little interest to anyone (except you) - there are much more ancient specimens. They are mainly studied. For example, the Cro-Magnon man from Bacho-Quiro has a much more accurate dating, and a genetic study was carried out. However, look not for Britannica, but for a more specialized anthropological publication, perhaps. You will find something interesting based on the people directly from Cro-Magnon.

literally quotes Klesov, and then pours water on him as if from a bucket.

This is not S.V. quotes Klesov, and Klesov uses generally accepted genetic data. You will decide whether Svante Pääbo or Klesov is your authority. If Klesov, then you will never get to the bottom of the truth.

.I would like to see the results of DNA research, where are they?

Well, if you are a supporter of Klesov, then you must understand something about genetics. So answer the question yourself - why bones from Cro-Magnon are not suitable for genetic testing.

For some reason, no one thought to conduct research on the effects of freezing on bones for 25 thousand years.

Why are you saying that you haven’t researched it? They probably researched it. Not specifically from Cro-Magnon, but they are not fundamentally different from the others.

if 35 thousand years ago, then they may turn out to be direct descendants of Neanderthals.

Cro-Magnons cannot be direct descendants of Neanderthals, this became clear to anthropologists at least half a century ago. The morphology and genetics there are completely different. Just as a dinosaur cannot descend from a crocodile, sapiens cannot descend from a Neanderthal.

Are you sure that after 25 thousand years, with repeated annual freezing from the bones, something will remain except molecules?

The bones of Neandertelians and Heidelbergers are hundreds of thousands of years old, nothing, they were preserved somehow.

It would seem that this question lies on the surface and the results would significantly narrow the time period. This is probably not beneficial for too many people.

Are you into conspiracy theories? Then this is not the place for you, this is still a historical site

Both results break the hypothesis of human exit from Africa.

False scientists have broken your brains - that’s all.

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

if 35 thousand years ago, then they may turn out to be direct descendants of Neanderthals.

Cro-Magnons cannot be direct descendants of Neanderthals, this became clear to anthropologists at least half a century ago. The morphology and genetics there are completely different. Just as a dinosaur cannot descend from a crocodile, sapiens cannot descend from a Neanderthal.

Artifacts of the Aurignacian culture from the Bajondillo Cave (Malaga, Andalusia) indicate that modern man lived in the south of Iberia 44 thousand years ago[5][6]. Findings from archaeological excavations in Willendorf (Austria), including the later "Venus of Willendorf", show that modern man of the Aurignacian culture appeared there about 43,5 thousand years ago and may have had contact with the last Neanderthals[3]. A study of teeth from Manot Cave, dating back 38 years ago, showed that representatives of the Aurignacian culture arrived in the Levant from Europe about 000 thousand years ago[40].

Evidence suggests that Cro-Magnons probably had contact with Neanderthals and that they also arrived in the Levant from Europe. You probably have reasons, other than your personal opinion, to assert that the Cro-Magnons, or their ancestors, like the Denisovan people, did not leave joint offspring. Neanderthals, by the way, even lived in Israel, not only in Iran and Iraq. Human genetic studies confirm the presence of traces of Neanderthal DNA in all people surveyed on the planet. However, you state that:

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

Cro-Magnons cannot be direct descendants of Neanderthals, this became clear to anthropologists at least half a century ago. The morphology and genetics there are completely different. Just as a dinosaur cannot descend from a crocodile, sapiens cannot descend from a Neanderthal.

Don't your words sound strange? Where then did Neanderthal DNA come from in the modern human population? Therefore, it is necessary to conduct thorough studies of Cro-Magnons, especially the first finds, the DNA level of Neanderthals will show who descended from whom and where. If this is interesting and important to you. Something like this.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

Evidence suggests that Cro-Magnons probably had contact with Neanderthals

Who is arguing?

that they arrived in the Levant from Europe.

Sapiens lived in the Levant long before the individual from Manot Cave arrived there from Europe. However, have you arrived? Where is the quote from? Who did the research? Once again, look at the publications over recent years - there is plenty of evidence of the settlement of Europe from the Levant. There is no evidence of the settlement of the Levant from Europe.

Don't your words sound strange? Where then did Neanderthal DNA come from in the modern human population?

Do you have problems with the Russian language? You don’t read the literature on anthropology at all and decide to draw conclusions on a global scale? Are you too lazy to go to the site anthropogenesis.ru and study its materials? Don't have time to read "The Missing Link"? Just browse popular science aggregators (such as “Nike Science” and “Elements.ru”)? Neanderthals are not our direct ancestors - this is generally accepted. The admixture of Neanderthal genes is an admixture from the displacement of sapiens and Neanderthals. That's why there is so little of it.

Therefore, it is necessary to conduct thorough research on Cro-Magnons.....the DNA level of Neanderthals will show who descended from whom and where.

Already done. Just Google it.

, especially the first finds,

I asked you to think about why there is no point in conducting a DNA analysis of bones discovered a long time ago. Didn't think of it?

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

Sapiens lived in the Levant long before the individual from Manot Cave arrived there from Europe. However, have you arrived? Where is the quote from? Who did the research? Once again, look at the publications over recent years - there is plenty of evidence of the settlement of Europe from the Levant. There is no evidence of the settlement of the Levant from Europe.

Are you sure?
What do you say to this:

This suggests that the Manot people could be closely related to the first modern humans who later successfully colonized Europe. Thus, the anatomical features used to support the 'assimilation model' in Europe might not have been inherited from European Neanderthals, but rather from earlier Levantine populations. Moreover, at present, Manot 1 is the only modern human specimen to provide evidence that during the Middle to Upper Palaeolithic interface, both modern humans and Neanderthals contemporaneously inhabited the southern Levant, close in time to the likely interbreeding event with Neanderthals2,3.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature14134

Or for this:

However, in recent years there has been increasing evidence that this was also characteristic of other populations, such as Neanderthals (H. neanderthalensis).

https://nplus1.ru/news/2022/05/12/nesher-ramla/amp

Israeli scientists announced the discovery of a new species of ancient people, who, according to some characteristics, are an intermediate link between Neanderthals and the ancestors of modern humans. They published the research results in the journal Science.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abh3169

Or that:

In the territory of the Nahal Mearot reserve, archaeologists over 90 years of work have discovered the remains of five different cultural eras of the Lower, Middle and Upper Paleolithic:
- Acheulian (500-200 thousand years ago)
- Mugarian (150-100 thousand years)
- Mousterian (100-40 thousand years)
- Aurignacian
- Ahmar (40-20 thousand years)
- Natufian (12-9 thousand years).
In Tanur Cave, evidence of three different ancient human cultures was found: Acheulean, Yabrud and Mousterian.

One of the most interesting finds here is the skeleton of a Neanderthal woman, found in the Mousterian cultural layer.

The theory that Neanderthals were exclusively carnivores has now been called into question by several studies

University of York archaeologist Dr. Stephen Buckley previously published research on the presence of traces of plant foods on the teeth of Neanderthals, including those prepared and possibly used for medicinal purposes.
https://www.bbc.com/russian/science/2014/06/140626_neanderthal_oldest_faeces.amp

You can do this for a long time.

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

Are you sure that after 25 thousand years, with repeated annual freezing from the bones, something will remain except molecules?

The bones of Neandertelians and Heidelbergers are hundreds of thousands of years old, nothing, they were preserved somehow.

In the period from July 22 to August 17, 2015 on the island. Bely, Yamal district of the Yamal-Nenets Autonomous Okrug, with the support of the government of the Yamal-Nenets Autonomous Okrug, a search team was carried out within the framework of the regional project “Kara Expeditions”. One of the goals of the search expedition was to discover the burial places of military personnel and civilians who died as a result of the tragedy on August 12, 1944 in the Kara Sea when three ships from the BD-5 convoy, which was sailing from the White Sea to the island, were sunk by a German submarine. Dixon. The search for burials involved the exhumation of the buried, followed by their examination and reburial.

The dried bone remains were odorless, dry, light, completely devoid of a fatty component, the articular surfaces were without cartilaginous tissue, and chipping of the compact layer of bones was noted (weathering, scarification).

Only 60 years have passed and there are already clear signs of bone destruction. Imagine what will happen in 25 thousand years. It doesn’t hurt you in winter, at temperatures below -20 degrees, to go into the forest and listen to how tree trunks are torn apart in the cold. Ice breaks granite, but hygroscopic bones easily.

The invention relates to forensic medical examination and can be used to identify the conditions for the formation or absence of post-mortem injuries to the skull when the heads of corpses freeze. If freezing occurred from the back of the head and parietal areas, then no damage to the skull bones was observed. If the neck and foramen magnum are frozen, damage to the skull bones is observed in the form of fractures or divergence of cranial sutures. The method allows you to determine the direction from which freezing occurred.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

Only 60 years have passed and there are already clear signs of bone destruction. Imagine what will happen in 25 thousand years. It doesn’t hurt you in winter, at temperatures below -20 degrees, to go into the forest and listen to how tree trunks are torn apart in the cold. Ice breaks granite, but hygroscopic bones easily.

Well, if it were otherwise, we would live in a forest made of bones of animals and people who died thousands and hundreds of thousands of years ago. Where the bones are found - in Europe, mainly in caves. Why? The answer is on the surface. Did you guess it?

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

Well, if it were otherwise, we would live in a forest made of bones of animals and people who died thousands and hundreds of thousands of years ago. Where the bones are found - in Europe, mainly in caves. Why? The answer is on the surface. Did you guess it?

That is why you claim that man came out of Africa. Only, unfortunately, African finds do not contain traces of DNA, so you can wag your tongue whatever you want, tying hominid bones to humans. This is something like the South American capuchin, which still cracks nuts with stones, instead of primitive man. Today all museums in the world are filled with these stones.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

Only, unfortunately, African finds do not contain traces of DNA, so you can wag your tongue about anything

Has morphology been canceled yet? So, genetic data mainly confirm the conclusions that anthropologists draw on the basis of morphology.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

And yes, it is geneticists who insist most strongly on the African origin of man!

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

And yes, it is geneticists who insist most strongly on the African origin of man!

You know! Israeli scientists also, literally in unison, insisted on this. And now, in the same chorus, they claim a revolution in science, having discovered a transitional link between Neanderthals and humans. Moreover, they, quite rightly, single out Neanderthals from the Levant, from whom the transitional form found in Israel originates. What does this mean, almost unambiguously? This suggests that the Manot people descended from Neanderthals from the Levant, Neanderthals from the Levant descended from Neanderthals from Europe. Where does the arrow point? The arrow points from North to South, whether you like it or not. That is, in this way, from group to group, from population to population, gradually decreasing in percentage, the DNA of Neanderthals was transferred to modern man, not from Africa, but to Africa. It turns out that Neanderthals directly or indirectly reached the southern coast of Africa, creating the modern form of people. It remains to find the previous waves of the arrival of the ancestors of Neanderthals from Europe or other continents to Africa and everything falls into place.

[Eugene Zaboy]

I am forced to write several comments on one issue.

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

Missed it. Firstly, the Cro-Magnons are not only the inhabitants of the Cro-Magnon cave, but all the sapiens of Paleolithic Europe.

As you know, Cro-Magnons are considered separately from Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens precisely because of the discovery in the Cro-Magnon cave by many researchers for many reasons. First of all, because this group is one of a kind. No one knows how to classify them and does not risk doing so. If this is done, then the conclusions may contradict the hypothesis of human exit from Africa, and Neanderthals may turn out to be the direct ancestors of Homo Sapiens.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

Excuse me, where did you pick up this nonsense? Many researchers - these are Klesov, Fomenko and Chudinov, on whom there is nowhere to put samples? Cro-Magnons are quite typical speriens, which is accepted by almost everyone sane anthropologists. One can argue about the sapience of people from Jebel Irhoud or Peloponnesian Man - but questioning the sapience of Cro-Magnons is beyond the bounds of rationality.

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

One can argue about the sapience of people from Jebel Irhoud or Peloponnesian Man - but questioning the sapience of Cro-Magnons is beyond the bounds of rationality.

You said it.

Quote from Eugene Zaboy

If this is done, then the conclusions may contradict the hypothesis of human exit from Africa, and Neanderthals may turn out to be the direct ancestors of Homo Sapiens.

I wrote this. What is the difference?

[Sergey Sfiedu]

It's pointless to even argue with such wild ignorance. At least learn a little, then start talking about the ancestors of sapiens and the place of their origin.

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

It's pointless to even argue with such wild ignorance. At least learn a little, then start talking about the ancestors of sapiens and the place of their origin

Sergey, maybe you can tell me what to study? So far, everything that I have read about the origin of Homo Sapiens is assessed in the sources as “possible”. Therefore, this is not even a theory, but just another hypothesis.
Is it worth breaking spears where there is no evidence?

If you find a consistent chain of ancestors of Homo Sapiens in Africa, let me know and I will take note. In the meantime, we'll have to wait for your evidence. Good luck on this difficult path!

[Sergey Sfiedu]

If you find a consistent chain of ancestors of Homo Sapiens in Africa, let me know and I will take note.

May you be happy:
https://antropogenez.ru/species/27/ и далее люди из Джебель Ирхуд.

everything that I have read about the origin of Homo Sapiens is assessed in the sources as “possible”.

Get used to it. This is the science of anthropology. New research always makes adjustments to old ones. 100% truth can only be found in a cemetery, and not always.

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

May you be happy:
https://antropogenez.ru/species/27/ и далее люди из Джебель Ирхуд.

In almost all studied parameters - skull, lower jaw, brain, various teeth - people from Jebel Irhoud find themselves exactly in the middle between modern us (including Upper Paleolithic Cro-Magnons) and more ancient ones - Heidelbergensis, Neanderthals and African Middle Pleistocene people. This in itself is great, but a couple of features attract special attention.

Practically speaks of the creation of another transitional form by aliens. Exactly what Klesov was talking about.

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

Why suddenly? Where have you seen wild wheat in the North? There are a few islands in the very south of Europe, the northernmost is Crimea, but very, very few. And in the Middle East and Central Asia it is still growing. And how do you imagine “brought”?

It is incorrect to compare post-glacial Eurasia and pre-glacial Eurasia. These are not comparable categories in terms of geography and climatic conditions. Yet again. The Ice Age did not fall on Eurasia, as in the cartoon, but developed over thousands of years. The ancestors of people, flora and fauna moved. Therefore, what was found in the teeth of the Neanderthals of Iraq could have grown in Europe, or something similar, naturally before the Ice Age. Naturally, it’s not for me to decide, but if today it is present in Crimea, then why more than 30 thousand years ago it could not grow in Rostov?

Your mistake is that you confuse the past and the present.

Tree ferns grow in Australia today. They used to grow in Europe.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

could have grown in Europe, or something similar, naturally before the Ice Age. Naturally, it’s not for me to decide, but if today it is present in Crimea, then why more than 30 thousand years ago it could not grow in Rostov? Your mistake is that you confuse the past and the present.

History is an evidence-based science. Could wild wheat grow in Rostov? She could. Has it grown? Is not a fact. Find seeds or pollen, then we will know whether it grew or not. But... How does this affect the fact that she was domesticated in the Levant? If you find granaries, sickles, grain grinders in Rostov earlier than in the Levant - this will be the result, but otherwise it’s just fantasy on your part.

[Eugene Zaboy]

If a Neanderthal with European roots ate wheat in Iraq and did not die from toxicosis, this says a lot. Wheat is not only nutritious, but also allergenic. Especially for species trying it for the first time. So the chances of finding wild wheat in Rostov increase. You just have to look for it, someone. For example, do soil analyzes of historical periods.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

How would this change the fact that wheat was first domesticated in the Levant?

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

How would this change the fact that wheat was first domesticated in the Levant?

Wheat in the Levant bears the mark: “I am the first wild wheat”?

[Sergey Sfiedu]

If by “stamp” you mean existing scientific data, then the wheat from the Levant bears a “stamp” (and what a stamp!) - “I am the oldest wheat discovered that people collected in granaries, and I am the ancestor of the most ancient domesticated wheat!” .

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

Yeah. You've done something completely strange. Wild wheat differs from wild wheat both externally and genetically, and wild wheat and barley from the Levant have been studied like no other plant.

Many have spoken out regarding the domestication and selection of plants and animals by our ancestors. I will add from myself. For some reason, the expression domestication and selection of plants and animals by humans is found in all sources. At the same time, there is a huge amount of work indicating differences in human populations at the level of genetic changes under the influence of plants and animals. It would probably be correct to say mutual domestication and selection. If a social group is engaged in the domestication and selection of a plant or animal, then the plant and animal are engaged in the domestication of this social group of people, with the inevitable result. Of course, this undermines man’s faith as the creator of all things on earth, but this is actually so. Even cats rewarding people with Toxoplasmosis changes their consciousness. If We want to identify social groups that domesticated wheat, oats, walnuts or cows, we need to look for people who have maximum tolerance to wheat gluten, nuts and cow's lactose and who derive maximum benefit from these products. Most likely, the process took many millennia and all subjects reacting to allergens were rejected (died) from toxicosis, or adapted by changing their body, right down to their DNA. That is why the Cossacks are not suitable for the role of wheat domesticators, since they are not very friendly with wheat gluten, for the most part.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

Even cats rewarding people with Toxoplasmosis changes their consciousness.

This is very controversial. The topic is inflated by journalists.

You need to look for people who have maximum tolerance to wheat gluten, nuts and cow's lactose and get the maximum benefit from these products.

Again - now there are huge populations of people who do not have lactase - why haven’t they died out? The Mediterraneans still do not digest milk well, the Greeks and Romans were amazed at the barbarity of the Germans who drank milk - and what a mark they left in history, if only everyone could do that! But cows were bred, nevertheless, and cheeses were respected. All sorts of Maasai, Kikuyu and others like them lived like milk and blood - and nothing - somehow they did not die out. Allergy to wheat protein is quite rare. Walnut? Did people have to adapt to it too? Yes, he did not give birth for ten years - and there was no hunger.

That is why the Cossacks are not suitable for the role of wheat domesticators,

Why the hell are you openly fooling around with the Cossacks? In what century did they come to Semirechye?

since they are not very friendly with wheat gluten, for the most part.

Who told you such nonsense? I am a Cossack by origin. No one in our family suffered from wheat protein intolerance. For their service, the Cossacks received land and grew wheat. And bread was the main food product. Some kind of suicides.

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

Even cats rewarding people with Toxoplasmosis changes their consciousness.

This is very controversial. The topic is inflated by journalists.

It sounds like what is debatable for you is what you do not like or does not correspond to your views, and what is undeniable is what you agree with.
Toxoplasmosis and its effects on cats and humans have been studied in detail for a long time. There is no need to question the obvious and proven. You can read it yourself or talk to any veterinarian. This is a topic from the basic course that everyone should know.

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

You need to look for people who have maximum tolerance to wheat gluten, nuts and cow's lactose and get the maximum benefit from these products.

Again - now there are huge populations of people who do not have lactase - why haven’t they died out? The Mediterraneans still do not digest milk well, the Greeks and Romans were amazed at the barbarity of the Germans who drank milk - and what a mark they left in history, if only everyone could do that! But cows were bred, nevertheless, and cheeses were respected. All sorts of Maasai, Kikuyu and others like them lived like milk and blood - and nothing - somehow they did not die out.

Pay attention to the texts above, We are talking about different things.
What I mean is that the social group involved in the domestication and selection of cows should absorb milk as well as possible compared to others. You argue that others drink milk and do not die. A separate topic, very large and problematic. I can say one thing. The majority of the world's population is contraindicated in consuming wheat gluten or cow's lactose in large quantities. Affects cognitive abilities, impairs memory.

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

Why the hell are you openly fooling around with the Cossacks? In what century did they come to Semirechye?
since they are not very friendly with wheat gluten, for the most part.

Who told you such nonsense? I am a Cossack by origin. No one in our family suffered from wheat protein intolerance. For their service, the Cossacks received land and grew wheat. And bread was the main food product. Some kind of suicides.

Let's start with the fact that the Cossacks did not come to Semirechye, but their ancestors came, who returned from there as Cossacks, having developed these traditions in order to survive in the conditions of Semirechye. If they formed there at all, that’s another question. If you mean the Yezidis, then they are not Cossacks, but Kurds, these are the same Yezidis who only converted to Islam. The Cossacks may be related to the Yazidis, but in any case, the Yazidis are descendants of immigrants from Eurasia and the local population, from mixed marriages. It is impossible to single them out, because there were many Ice Ages and it is impossible to find the first Adam and Eve, and it is impossible to figure it out in the social groups that participated. We must proceed from the fact that the last millennium does not play any role. Cossacks, as an ethnic group, are much deeper and are still susceptible to the influence of gluten and lactose.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

Toxoplasmosis and its effects on cats and humans have been studied in detail for a long time. There is no need to question the obvious and proven. You can read it yourself or talk to any veterinarian. This is a topic from the basic course that everyone should know.

This topic is currently being studied and there are no final conclusions. As far as I follow popular science news, according to the latest data, any super-noticeable effect of toxaplasma on people is not confirmed. People are not mice.

What I mean is that the social group involved in the domestication and selection of cows should absorb milk as well as possible compared to others.

For what? People domesticated cows not for milk, but for beef and hide. Milk is a side benefit, albeit a pleasant one. In theory, the idea seems to be correct - carriers of lactase genes should have an advantage and squeeze people without these genes out of the population. But alas - practice refutes this hypothesis - neither the Mediterraneans, nor the Masai, nor the Mongols, who for the most part do not have lactase genes, became extinct, Although they actively breed cows, the Maasai and Mongols also have milk as one of their main foodstuffs. They write that lactase genes are associated with other traits. Perhaps it’s their fault, but maybe and completely an accident.

[Eugene Zaboy]

Have you ever eaten wild berries or nuts? You find yourself in a forest, or on a field, and around you there are only blueberries, or raspberries, or bird cherry. You eat it, eat it with force, you want to eat, but there is nothing else around. You have to walk to get to another food, and it may take a long time, and it is not safe. Why am I talking?
Ancient people preferred to use what was at hand, here and now, even if it was already boring and sickening. Therefore, toxicosis and other problems associated with the consumption of the same food were constant companions of the future person. In the office it is easy and simple to develop theories that are divorced from real life and therefore unviable. All living organisms are guided by expediency when choosing goals. The elk eats fly agarics to the point of intoxication, the elephant fills its stomach with fermented fruits, not in order to rush into a fight or destroy villages. They eat it because food is nearby.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

In the office it is easy and simple to develop theories that are divorced from real life and therefore unviable.

That's it. So don’t make up problems out of thin air. There could be toxicosis due to some products. Or it might not have been. Before intensive gathering of grains, people did not eat the same food for obvious reasons, so there was no particular problem. And there is no scientifically reliable evidence that wheat protein intolerance was more common in the Epipaleolithic and Neolithic than it is now. If you prove that you were there more often, I will agree. For now, general words are just general words.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

Let's start with the fact that the Cossacks did not come to Semirechye, but their ancestors did,

You are wrong. It was the Cossacks who came to Semirechye. All sorts of Yezidis and others like them have nothing to do with it. They arrived and saw clearings overgrown with wild barley. We tried to mow it, but it didn’t work; wild barley’s grains fall off when mowing. Where does the role of the Cossacks end in this story? I talked about them because in the Middle East and Central Asia, wild wheat and barley still grow. All. I hope the conversation about Cossacks in this thread is over.

[ee2100]

For a middle school student, the article seems normal. And for this “history” section it’s just a shame.
I hope the author knows the meaning of the word selection. And how does he explain that in different parts of the globe, almost at the same time, Homo sapiens took up and began breeding agricultural crops? No way. I just took it and listed what and where a person is believed to have cultivated.
And another discovery by Shpakovsky: “That’s why “extra” children were probably even killed then” (c)
Or perhaps not. And most likely not!
Good morning everyone!

[kalibr]

Quote: ee2100

And how does he explain that in different parts of the globe, almost at the same time, Homo sapiens took up and began breeding agricultural crops?

I give this opportunity to you, Alexander. Here you can show off your erudition and show off your skills as a rhetorician - everything is at your service. But what to comment on, what to discuss?

[kalibr]

Quote: ee2100

Or perhaps not. And most likely not!

Rather yes than no. But I won't ask. Perhaps someone will find examples from ethnography when this was practiced among primitive tribes in our time. And if so, then why not be the same in times...new...

[Monster_Fat]

Back in “Soviet times,” I accidentally bought a superbly illustrated, encyclopedic format book on excellent glossy paper called “A Leap into the Past.” This book, based on extensive material, examined the life of people of ancient times, their culture, technology, weapons, etc. Moreover, using the example of recreating all this in modern conditions and analyzing the results obtained. The book is simply most interesting. I read it.

[Richard]

The book is simply most interesting. I read it.

Wonderful book! We have it at home. In 89, in an Ashgabat bookstore, my wife jokingly drew my attention to the author’s surnames - Yaroslav Malina and Renata Malinina. They started leafing through it, became interested, and eventually purchased it. Subsequently, back home, both son and daughter re-read it with pleasure.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

And how does he explain that in different parts of the globe, almost at the same time, Homo sapiens took up and began breeding agricultural crops?

It's warmer. While it was cold, wheat and rice did not grow well.

[Glory1974]

And how does he explain that in different parts of the globe, almost at the same time, Homo sapiens took up and began breeding agricultural crops?

The official story says that somehow everything happened by accident. But logic says that someone purposefully studied plants and spread knowledge among people. And no one can explain the origin of, for example, corn, because it does not grow without humans. It must be peeled, the grains removed and prepared for sowing, otherwise it will rot. But this cannot be said, because in our society it is considered obscurantism - ancient people could not engage in selection, much less genetic modification.

[paul3390]

But let's say cassava, one of the main crops in many places, is generally poisonous. Lethal dose - 400 grams!! And in order to eat it, you must either dry the flour for a long time, or cook it and cut it into small cubes... Moreover, long-term use in violation of technology leads to extremely unpleasant consequences. Here it is - HOW did it manage to become a food product in such situations?

[Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov]

Here it is - HOW did it manage to become a food product in such situations?

Like Fugu fish and many other things - “you really want to bite.”

[paul3390]

Fugu is the result of purely Japanese peculiar foppery. In other places, they don’t eat it at all. And in Japan it is by no means a mass food product...

And poisonous cassava hamsters at least a third of the globe...

[Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov]

And poisonous cassava hamsters at least a third of the globe...

This is also foppishness, we could go to America to get some potatoes.

[paul3390]

So - cassava is just from America... And there, having quite harmless potatoes, they ate them for some reason...

[Richard]

They ate everything - everything that grew edible in the given area and then cultivated it. In regions with a tropical climate, this became cassava; in the foothill plains of the Andes, this became potato. There is no point in comparing them - after all, the habitats of these root crops are different.

[paul3390]

Well, imagine - your overly voracious and curious fellow tribesman dug up a root and devoured it. After which, after two days of terrible torment, he safely left for the Land of Eternal Hunting. Question - will you continue to experiment with this root even from hunger?

Let me remind you - the lethal dose of raw cassava is only 400 grams!!!

[Richard]

Let me remind you - the lethal dose of raw cassava is only 400 grams!!

Well, that is if you consume it raw. Usually, ground cassava mixed with water is placed in a thin layer in the shade, where it dries for 5-6 hours. This results in complete evaporation of the cyanide.

Question - will you continue to experiment with this poisonous root even from starvation?

The answer is obvious - of course, ancient people continued to experiment with cassava and eventually adopted it into their diet. Thanks to its unpretentiousness, cassava is easy to cultivate and produces a rich harvest. Today, cassava is the third largest source of dietary carbohydrates in the tropics after rice and corn. Today it provides 37% of the food consumed in Africa by caloric value.
Good afternoon, Pavel! I always enjoy reading your thoughtful comments.

[paul3390]

Of course, ancient people continued to experiment with cassava

Well, I don’t know - I personally don’t have the slightest desire to experiment with, say, toadstool, in the hope of finding a way to make it edible... Moreover, try it on yourself... And I don’t think that my distant ancestors were very different from me in this matter..

Thank...

[Richard]

A couple of months ago, one of our colleagues wrote how, as a child, he and his mother decided to make a salad from dandelions. They cooked it and threw it away; they couldn’t eat it—the bitterness was terrible. And in the villages, from time immemorial, we have made salads from dandelions, cooked cabbage soup, and stewed them with meat. Yes, we do it today at the beginning of summer. And the bitterness is removed very simply - the collected dandelion leaves and flowers are soaked in cold water for a couple of hours and that’s it. And this is not modern know-how; someone else came up with this idea many hundreds, and maybe even thousands of years ago. And I strongly suspect that not the first time, but they were purposefully looking for a way to remove bitterness.

[paul3390]

We were looking for a way to remove bitterness.

Looking for how to remove bitterness is one thing, but trying it on yourself will kill you like all the previous experimenters, or this time it will blow you away - you must agree, it’s completely different..

[Sergey Sfiedu]

“I personally don’t have the slightest desire to experiment with, say, toadstool” - the mass of people have consumed and are still consuming fly agaric mushrooms. Some kind of maniacs...

[Glory1974]

The answer is obvious - of course, ancient people continued to experiment with cassava and eventually adopted it into their diet.

After each unsuccessful experiment, one experimenter went to the land of eternal hunting.
The most logical explanation is that it was a laboratory, with some kind of equipment that allows you to take samples and analyze the composition, identify poisons and substances beneficial to the body. Then, using a laboratory method, develop a technology for removing poisons, test it, make sure it is safe, inform everyone how to cook properly .

[YEHU]

You'll be experimenting out of hunger. Die like this.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

"And there, having quite harmless potatoes"
Wild potatoes for the most part are not at all harmless. Not poisonous, like cassava, but simply very bitter, practically inedible. And wild watermelons are also very bitter! And the peppers are absolutely terrible!

[brondulyak]

The toxin contained in the meat of fugu fish strengthens and enhances male power, described in “Sakura Branch” by V. Ovchinnikov.

[kalibr]

Quote: glory1974

But this cannot be said, because in our society it is considered obscurantism - ancient people could not engage in selection, much less genetic modification.

Who said that? It is precisely about selection in ancient times that people talk and squeak about today.

[Frettaskyrandi]

And no one can explain the origin of, for example, corn, because it does not grow without humans.

You wrote something stupid. Firstly, the origin of corn has long been explained (https://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=114445#:~:text=The%20earliest%20physical%20evidence%20for,Mexico%2C%20not%20the %20highland%20areas.)
Secondly, its wild ancestors still grow well today without human help.

It is advisable to read before typing on the keyboard, otherwise your nonsense will be spread across the Internet by the same ignoramuses.

[Glory1974]

Have you yourself read the article to which you provide a link? Let me quote you excerpts:
It is written in black and white: “Corn does not grow in the wild without humans.”
The ancestor of corn is considered to be the inedible plant teosinte. There are several theories about the origin of corn, this is one of them. According to this theory, the Indians carried out selection for several thousand years.

[Fat]

Quote: glory1974

And no one can explain the origin of, for example, corn, because it does not grow without humans. It must be peeled, the grains removed and prepared for sowing, otherwise it will rot. But this cannot be said, because in our society it is considered obscurantism - ancient people could not engage in selection, much less genetic modification.

Well, it must be said that “they couldn’t engage in selection.” They have been “doing” selection (selection) for about 6-7 thousand years. A more or less modern form of maize appeared about 4500 years ago, and began to be “domesticated” 12 thousand years ago. During this time, simply selecting more successful grains and improving growing conditions. Have you heard about the American “three sisters”?
Wild relatives of corn are known: this is teosinte (Balsas teosinte).

[Glory1974]

Do you seriously believe that the Indians engaged in selective breeding for several thousand years? I think in 10-15 years they would give up the hopeless business. Either their civilization is much smarter than ours, and their planning horizon is not 10-50 years, but for millennia.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

The official story says that somehow everything happened by accident.

Rave. It's not even a coincidence. Why - my post above.

And no one can explain the origin of, for example, corn.

Still they try. And it seems even sensible. Google it

[YEHU]

Likewise, a sheep cannot survive without a person. And you and I are outside of society. And who selected us like this, along with corn?

[Glory1974]

and a sheep cannot survive without a person. And you and I are outside of society. And who selected us to be like this?

Good question. And there is no answer to it either. Why can’t a person, the only living creature on planet Earth, exist without clothes, without specially built dwellings. Who created us like this? Why, over the years of evolution, have we not developed hair, like animals, because it’s easier to survive this way? And there are many other reasons why.

[paul3390]

took up and started breeding crops

Selection is fine, but why the hell does he need bread? It's a lot of hemorrhoids - grinding flour on a stone millstone, and even with stone chips? When it’s much easier to simply cook delicious porridge with meat and herbs from grain...

[Fat]

Quote: paul3390

When it’s much easier to simply cook delicious porridge with meat and herbs from grain...

Greetings Pavel. In order to cook you need a pot (knowledge of ceramic technology). And to grind the grain, you only need a couple of stones.

[paul3390]

So, did ceramics appear almost simultaneously with agriculture? In addition, many peoples cook excellent soups and porridges in a leather wineskin with hot stones...

[Fat]

The dough can be prepared in any container by mixing coarse flour with water.
To obtain an unleavened cake, you only need a well-heated flat stone. I think that porridge and bread cakes coexisted quite well

[Waterways 672]

There won’t be much benefit from whole grain porridge; the body won’t absorb this porridge. Roughly speaking, what goes in, comes out. Take pearl barley, for example, to obtain this cereal, the shell (bran) is separated from the grain, which can be used to feed livestock. If the grain is crushed, the shell will collapse and the grain will be digestible.

[paul3390]

Well, it seems like flour isn’t made from whole grains either?

[Waterways 672]

There are different types of flour.
Whole grain flour is made from whole grains and contains bran, in contrast to the so-called white flour, which is made only from part of the grain after removing the outer shell and germ from it, by cleaning and grinding.

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote: Waterways 672

There won’t be much benefit from whole grain porridge; the body won’t absorb this porridge. Roughly speaking, what goes in, comes out.

Use the free recipe - I recommend it. I use it myself often. Take plain wheat. Rinse well. Fill no more than half of it into the thermos. The thermos must be of high quality in order to maintain the temperature with minimal losses. Rinse with boiling water to warm up and send. After that, add salt and fill with boiling water, even a full thermos. After at least 3-5 hours you can try. I often leave it overnight, but sometimes it gets soggy. It all depends on the hardness of the wheat. I'm sure you'll like it. You can drink the infusion of water; it is quite a suitable drink. So, they could bury wineskins with grains filled with water under the fire and have a wonderful breakfast in the morning. Nothing will burn and will cook perfectly while everyone is sleeping. We cooked leg of lamb this way, albeit without water, more than once.

[Richard]

But why the hell did he need bread? It's a lot of hemorrhoids - grinding flour on a stone millstone, and even with stone chips? When it’s much easier to simply cook delicious porridge with meat and herbs from grain...

I guess, maybe because you can’t take porridge with you on a multi-day hunt, unlike cakes made from cassava flour or grains on hot stones. Yes, and you need to cook the porridge in some kind of container. This is a must see when cooking pots appeared

[Sergey Sfiedu]

This is a must see when cooking pots appeared

In the Levant, pots appeared around the same time that people became addicted to bread. But in East Asia - much, much earlier. The ancestors of the Japanese, Koreans and Chinese were already a very unique, patient and inventive people.

[paul3390]

Yes - the Jomon phenomenon. There is no agriculture, but there is ceramics. And what kind..

[paul3390]

You can’t take porridge with you on a multi-day hunt

How can you take it? Hard-boiled cold - yes easily. By the way - many places do this - they take a lump of porridge with lard and don’t sweat it. You can eat it just like that.

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote: Richard

Yes, and you need to cook the porridge in some kind of container. This is a must see when cooking pots appeared

They could make cauldrons from birch logs, cover them with a lid, wrap them in burdocks and bury them shallowly under the fire at night. In the morning, for breakfast, the porridge is ready. A pot like this won’t burn, but carrying it with you is not sugar. Also, food wrapped in burdock leaves and coated with liquid clay cooks perfectly and does not lose moisture. There are many recipes on how to do without dishes. The clay becomes hard, but does not burn, so shards cannot be found, they quickly disintegrate. If you only check for the presence of clay, near the hearths.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

grind flour on a stone millstone

In the Levant, near the sites of ancient people, strange cone-shaped depressions are found in the rocks. It is believed that these are mortars for wild grains and the first domesticated wheat and barley. You can also make mash and beer from them, which is what our ancestors probably did.

[ANB]

. When it’s much easier to simply cook delicious porridge with meat and herbs from grain...

This is what I read in some history book. The option is quite plausible.
You'll get tired of cooking whole grains. Even now. That's why it was crushed. And now there is such cereal.
History:
A woman was crushing grain into cereal.
I got tired and just started moving stones. Instead of cereal, it turned out to be flour. You still want to eat, dilute it with water, boil it - it’s edible. The first bread was unleavened - fried flour with water (first the dough, then fry. Although in Tibet it’s the other way around). Some peoples eat this only.

[YEHU]

It’s easy to cook now. But ancient people didn’t immediately learn how to make pots.

[kor1vet1974]

But the question is, which animal was the first to be domesticated?

The Soviet cartoon is excellent, “The Cat Who Walked by itself,” based on the fairy tale by R. Kipling.

[Korsar4]

I love this cartoon. I quote. I show it to the children. A brief history of the young world.

[Gomunkul]

But since they wandered on foot, mothers carried their children on themselves, while a woman could neither feed nor carry more than one child. Therefore, “extra” children may have even been killed. Therefore, human population growth remained low for millennia.

Author, a bold statement! If you turn on the logic, then everything falls into place:
1. Increasing the size of the tribe is an objective necessity of the time; the larger the tribe, the more resistant it is to survival.
2. Natural selection at that time worked with a bang, if you did not die from disease, then there was a high probability of dying from hunger, in a tribe in which there are many people who can collect (prepare) more food.
The list can be continued, but I highlighted the main thing: - survival.

[paul3390]

there was a high probability of dying from hunger

In general, in the old days, hunter-gatherers had to try very hard to glue their fins together from hunger... Because there was just a lot of variety of game and plants around. The Avon - Algonquin tribes in Canada, for example, collected so much wild rice from the swamps that they even sold it to whites for the winter.. But this is Canada - by no means the most fertile land.... I’m not talking about the famous bison.. Of which there were actually tens of millions.

Rather, the early farmers took risks - and the yield of the first varieties was scanty, and in case of crop shortages, serious problems began - the game around the settlement had definitely been eaten up for a long time...

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

In general, in the old days, hunter-gatherers had to try very hard to glue their flippers together from hunger.

The area of ​​residence and the time of year influenced a lot. In winter in Siberia you cannot eat without an iron weapon. Today the wild predator avoids humans. Before the advent of firearms, wolves in the cold winter season in the village could slaughter a flock of sheep together with the owner. Dogs are still being killed on the outskirts of cities in February. About the connecting rod bear, even today they mix reality with fiction. In the summer the brown one will leave, and in the winter it will easily catch up with the horse.

[stankow]

Even the most seedy village can assemble a squad of 10-15 men. So, with bows and spears, she will immediately indicate to the local wolf pack whose territory is already there and that it is not worth approaching even an individual person. Wolves learn quickly even without firearms. And they remember. Those who don’t remember didn’t survive.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

Collecting wild rice in large quantities is already proto-agriculture; rarely does anyone have such a blessing. And so hunter-gatherers are no strangers to suffering from hunger - “the crocodile is not caught, the coconut does not grow.” The benefit of agriculture and livestock farming is that a unit of territory can feed many more people.

[Carib]

In my youth in 1988, on a sports tourist trip in the highlands of Abkhazia, we descended a gorge along the banks of a mountain river in August. I was very surprised by the huge number of wild grapes, apple trees, and cherry plums. Wild because everyone had a different taste: sour, bitter, sour-bitter, slightly sweet. It was extremely rare to find tasty ones. Similarly, during a hike in the Western Tien Shan in August 1986 in the Brich Mule area in the mountains near the trails there are a lot of wild apple trees, at altitudes of 1500 -2500m. Obviously, they couldn’t get there themselves; people scattered them while chewing apples while crossing between valleys or while hunting for wild sheep and goats.

[Waterways 672]

Now in Russia, in particular in the North-West, many apple trees have appeared that have grown by self-sowing, one might say. There are places where it’s as if someone specially planted an apple orchard. Typically, apple trees appear in places where there has been no plowing or other agricultural activity for a long time. There are different apple trees - both wild and quite normal varieties. Where did they come from? This is most likely due to the life activity of birds.

[Richard]

during a hike in the Western Tien Shan in August 1986 in the Brich Mule area in the mountains near the trails there are a lot of wild apple trees, at altitudes of 1500 -2500m.

The sensational discovery of the international archa-paleonological expedition in Madygen and Tash Kumyr (Kyrgyzstan Southern Tien Shan) was the so-called. "Kumyr grave" 14 thousand years old. years in which, among the bone remains, a decayed bag of animal skin with stone tips and seeds of Tien Shan sweet apple trees was discovered. Presumably it was an ancient traveling barter trader, the so-called. -Ancient primeval traveling Merchant. Using the latest technology and the DNA of European and Asian apple trees, biologists from Oxford in 2022. They established that these were the first edible sweet apples on the planet, which ripened in the mountainous regions of present-day Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan under the bright sun at altitudes of more than 2 thousand meters, from where similar traders spread everywhere.

[Glory1974]

In 2020, it was proven that modern wolves and dogs have different genetic lines and, therefore, are not related

How do they mate and produce offspring? And where did the wild dogs from which the domestic ones originate go?

[Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov]

How do they mate and produce offspring? And where did the wild dogs from which the domestic ones originate go?

In addition to wolves, the dog tribe also includes jackals and coyotes. Read Konrad Lorenz's "A Man Finds a Friend", where this topic is covered very well, for its time, of course.

[Richard]

In addition to wolves, the dog tribe also includes jackals and coyotes.

Not only. There are also foxes, and wild dogs, and the now extinct Leptocyons and the ancestors of our modern dogs - Kyon dogs, which lived in the wild quite recently, and which were mentioned by Aristotle.

[3x3zsave]

With approximately the same species diversity, the adaptive apparatus of canines is much better than that of cats. In other words, canines live everywhere, from Novaya Zemlya to Australia. And yes, it was not cats who were the first to visit Antarctica and space!

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: 3x3zsave

With approximately the same species diversity, the adaptive apparatus of canines is much better than that of cats. In other words, canines live everywhere, from Novaya Zemlya to Australia. And yes, it was not cats who were the first to visit Antarctica and space!

Friends cats prefer to live next to the refrigerator, not in it!!!

[Sergey Sfiedu]

However, dogs did not come from jackals, coyotes, or foxes, but from wolves. As for different genetic lines, this is more of a catchphrase. It is clear that the wolves who lived 20 thousand years ago are not exactly the same as modern wolves, but they are not so different from them - both genetically and externally. The main difference is that the wolves of that time began to be tamed, most likely as adults (there are interesting features here), while modern wolves, as an adult, are, as a rule, not tamed.

[stankow]

Rather, the puppies killed the she-wolves to be tamed. Even an adult wild dog cannot be tamed, where do you want an adult wolf...

[Sergey Sfiedu]

Only wolf cubs of milk age are tamed. Which seem to have problems with the digestibility of human milk. And puppies that are able to eat something besides milk are no longer tamed. At least that's what they write, I haven't checked it myself.

[Bolt cutter]

The desire to chase a running mouse is inherent in a cat at the genetic level

Yeah, shazz Grandma's cat, having eaten sour cream, calmly watched as mice marched around the kitchen in marching order .

[paul3390]

Mine was cooler - the cat from the refrigerator watched with great interest how my wife was jumping around the kitchen catching a mouse.. And she even gave advice while sitting on top.. Like - come in from the left, you incompetent idiot, catch her with her manicured claw, claw...

[Gomunkul]

Mine was cooler

I had a cat, and he caught mice exclusively through a mousetrap. In the evening he came up to his father, meowed (reminding him that he needed to set a mousetrap), then after the mousetrap went off, he ran after his father so that he would give the mouse he came across to him. He was such a hunter. Cats are different, just like people.

[YEHU]

Exactly. I brought our Yashka a mouse caught at work. He followed him, sniffed him, touched him with his paw. But things didn't go any further.

[paul3390]

In this whole harmonious and beautiful picture of the development of civilization, the phenomenon of the North American Indians is interesting. When some of the tribes were still engaged in agriculture, but their closest neighbors were not. Let's say the Pawnee grew corn, but the Osage no longer did. Moreover, nomadic hunters were happy to exchange the skin for, say, maize and tobacco, but they themselves did not want to do this at point-blank range. Despite the type of benefits of farming and the presence of an example right next door. Those practicing agriculture directly said that they do it not because they really want to, but because the gods told them so..

This is a very interesting point, since it characterizes the contact between hunter-gatherers, who had no other sources of food, such as pastoralists, and early farmers. And we see that hunters for some reason don’t see any advantages of picking in the ground...

[Sergey Sfiedu]

Well, the same thing was described in Africa, in Papuasia, and probably once happened in Europe. But where are the hunter-gatherers now, and where are the farmers? Almost everywhere, farmers have driven hunters out to the worst places.

[YEHU]

So while there was enough game, no one tried to swing a hoe in the sun. There was no Greta Thunberg on our ancestors. They killed all the megafauna.

[ALARI]

But the author doesn’t want to explain how long people have been breeding? Did people need to eat or conduct experiments? Where did the time and resources come from if they were semi-nomadic, sowed and left, came when ripe, gathered and ate?

[Sergey Sfiedu]

They were semi-nomadic, sowed and left, came ripe, gathered and ate?

Not even close. At first there was proto-agriculture (intensive gathering). After the end of the last Ice Age, many wild, tasty plants appeared, including barley and wheat in large quantities. People quickly realized that if they poured excess grain into a hole, there would be enough until the next harvest. They learned to thresh grain, make sickles from wood and flint or obsidian, learned to cook porridge and bake cakes, made friends with cats so that they would chase mice, began to build houses and villages, and only when the harvest from the fields of wild wheat (and barley) became scarce, they began sowing them, and over time, selection.

[Frettaskyrandi]

In 2020, it was proven that modern wolves and dogs have different genetic lines and, therefore, are not relatives, which means they came from different ancestors.

Here the author, apparently, either used an unreliable source, or simply could not translate correctly, since all modern genetic studies show that the gray wolf is the closest living relative of the dog.

The latest publication on this issue was in August of this year within the international project Dog10K project - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37582787/

[Frettaskyrandi]

If scientists are still arguing about whether Homo sapiens (or his ancestors) appeared in one place or in several, then with regard to agricultural crops it is known for sure that they originate from several centers of domestication.

In accordance with the scheme proposed by N. Vavilov and still relevant today, there are eight such centers.

Centers of origin of cultivated plants: 1. Central American, 2. South American, 3. Mediterranean, 4. Central Asian, 5. Abyssinian, 6. Central Asian, 7. Hindustan, 7A. Southeast Asian, 8. East Asian.

Even Europe, which is cool in terms of climate (though the south and the Mediterranean region) can boast that it has also sufficiently enriched the agricultural culture of Homo sapiens. The same carrots, turnips, beets, radishes, peas and flax became domestic plants here.

The Mediterranean center - the Balkans, Greece, Italy and most of the Mediterranean coastline - has enriched Homo sapiens agriculture with eighty-four plants.
In general, Vyacheslav Olegovich, today’s article is frankly weak compared to the previous ones.

[kalibr]

In this case, your comment is even more valuable!

[Frettaskyrandi]

In this case, your comment is even more valuable!

A great man is adorned with modesty. He is not flattered by honors and fame

Ludwig is a historical feature film-drama directed by Luchino Visconti.

As for me, it was still worth dividing the topic into at least two articles - domestication of animals and domestication of plants. However, the topics are too voluminous and it is impossible to cover both in a short article.

[kalibr]

Quote from Frettaskyrandi

However, the topics are too voluminous and it is impossible to cover both in a short article.

I thought about it, but for a number of reasons it turned out to be impossible.

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote from Frettaskyrandi

As for me, it was still worth dividing the topic into at least two articles - domestication of animals and domestication of plants. However, the topics are too voluminous and it is impossible to cover both in a short article.

It would be interesting. In particular, a DNA marker of the walnut-pecan split should, with a high degree of probability, show a younger date for the appearance of humans in the Amazon. It wasn’t the nut itself that stomped there, and it doesn’t have wings. If, of course, there are reliable dating mechanisms for these points. This, one might say, is a message from the ancestors to future generations (I was there!). As is the history of the appearance of the walnut, which is obviously a product of selection.

[Eugene Zaboy]

In China it appeared in the period from 9000–8000 BC. e., in America - approx. 5 years ago and Tropical Africa - 000 years ago.

It could have appeared much earlier.

The pollen returned dates between 23,000 and 21,000 years old, and OSL showed the quartz grains were buried between 21,400 and 18,000 years ago, the team reports today in Science.

However, their initial data covered only about 0.1% of the Amazon's 6.7 million square kilometers. So, they combined the data of both the newly described earthworks and the previously reported ones to statistically predict how many more earthworks might be hiding in the basin. Taking into account such variables as temperature, precipitation, soil type, and distance to bodies of water, the researchers estimate that 16,187 earthwork sites remain undiscovered in the Amazon rainforest, they report today in Science. If they're right, more than 90% of ancient earthworks remain concealed under the canopy.

[Frettaskyrandi]

It could have appeared much earlier.

Or maybe it couldn’t. It’s too early to sound fanfare here.

Bennett et al. (1) used radiocarbon dating of Ruppia cirrosa seeds associated with buried human tracks from Lake Otero in New Mexico to argue that humans lived in North America approximately 23 to 000 calendar years before the present (21 to 000 ka . years ago). Although we agree that the initial human occupation of the Americas may ultimately date back to the beginning of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) ( 23 , 21 ), we are not convinced that their radiocarbon chronology is conclusively reliable. Dating ruppia seeds is problematic because they use dissolved inorganic carbon (DIC) in their photosynthesis and can be dated thousands of years older than their true age.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4678

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote from Frettaskyrandi

Or maybe it couldn’t. It’s too early to sound fanfare here.

This refers to new data published just yesterday in Science. For evidence, they used pine pollen and quartz, not aquatic plants. This made it possible to reliably revise the dating. Pines grew in this place before the Ice Age. You can check the original in Science or any other sources have been reprinted today.
For example: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ancient-footprints-affirm-people-lived-in-the-americas-more-than-20-000-years-ago/

Ancient Footprints Affirm People Lived in the Americas More Than 20,000 Years Ago
A new study suggests humans arrived in the Americas before the height of the last ice age more than 20,000 years ago

By Tom Metcalfe on October 5, 2023

The researchers determined the ages of pollen grains and tiny quartz crystals in sediments beside the footprints, which are buried a few feet below the surface. The work confirms a 2021 study's findings, which were based on radiocarbon dates from aquatic plant seeds in the sediments. The new results “are statistically indistinguishable from the seed ages,” says Jeff Pigati, a geologist at the US Geological Survey and co-lead author of the new study. “We've now got three different dating techniques—radiocarbon dating of the seeds, radiocarbon dating of the pollens and luminescence dating of the quartz—that all show people were there.”

But the alternative dating methods refute that idea, says co-lead study author Kathleen Springer, a USGS geologist. “It's a paradigm-shattering result,” she says. “People were in New Mexico during the Last Glacial Maximum, when the massive ice sheets farther north were [impassable]—that just flies in the face of all ideas about migrations and migratory routes,” she adds, referring to the last ice age's peak , which occurred between 26,000 and 20,000 years ago.

The new dates confirm the picture of a now vanished landscape at White Sands more than 20,000 years ago, when camels, elephants and giant sloths roamed beside a lake and were probably prey for human hunters. And the human footprints suggest people arrived there up to 30,000 years ago, before the ice sheets made migration from the north impossible.

Looks quite convincing. Voluntarily or unwittingly, Americans are getting closer to confirming the conclusions of Klesov, who argued that man appeared in America earlier than 60 years ago. It turns out that his method works quite reliably and there is no need to drip. It's cheaper to move in the opposite direction.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

Nevertheless, yes, it’s too early to sound the fanfare. Confirmation from other sources is needed, because one study may contain an error.

Americans are getting closer to confirming the conclusions of Klesov, who argued that man appeared in America earlier than 60 years ago.

“Between 26 and 000 years ago” and “before 20 years ago” are a significant difference. Klesov has a strong reputation as a visionary.

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

“Between 26 and 000 years ago” and “before 20 years ago” are a significant difference.

I agree, but the movement is in that direction.

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

Klesov has a strong reputation as a visionary.

However, this does not bother Western scientists. As always, merits will be assessed posthumously. First, a Nobel Prize from the West, and then well-deserved recognition in our homeland. It’s safer and calmer this way.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

I agree, but the movement is in that direction.

Not really. Sapiens reached Australia 55 thousand years ago, if not earlier, and in theory they should have reached America soon. It's a pity Beringia let us down. Some strange first signs of human existence in America - not in North America, but in South America, and very limited. What a legacy the Clovisites have left! And these pioneers have the feeling that they soon died out, leaving neither descendants nor noticeable traces.

However, this does not bother Western scientists.

We know about this from the words of Klesov himself. I suspect that if you ask these scientists about him today, they won’t even remember.

First, a Nobel Prize from the West, and then well-deserved recognition in our homeland.

All that's left is to get the Nobel Prize in the West.

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

Not really. Sapiens reached Australia 55 thousand years ago, if not earlier, and in theory they should have reached America soon. It's a pity Beringia let us down.

Are you sure that it was the “sapiens” who got there? There are other opinions:

Neanderthals and humans may belong to the same species, scientists say. This could rewrite the history of our evolution.
Marianne Geno January 1, 2024 3:36 am ET

The first Neanderthal fossils were discovered almost 200 years ago. One would think that by now scientists would have made up their minds about whether they should be designated as a separate species from Homo sapiens.

But it turns out it's a hotly contested topic, Antoine Balzo, a paleontologist at the National Museum of Natural History in France, told Business Insider.

“When we first discussed fossils in the 19th century, there was no real debate about whether it was a specific species or not, simply because humans were seen as a species at the time, but by default,” he said.

These lineages split about 500 years ago—relatively recent in the history of human evolution, but long enough ago that they look significantly different. For many, this evidence was enough to close the debate: Neanderthals and Homo sapiens were separate species.

This view began to change in 2008, when Swedish geneticist Svante Pääbo achieved what was thought impossible: he sequenced the Neanderthal genome by extracting DNA from ancient bones.

Through his research, Pääbo was able to show that most of us have a little Neanderthal in us. In fact, he showed that most living humans contain about 2% Neanderthal DNA.

Evidence also suggests that human and Neanderthal ancestors likely had children when they lived together about 50 years ago.

This news created a dogmatic rift, reopening the possibility that Neanderthals and humans should be considered the same species.

After all, according to the strict biological definition of species, animals of different species should not produce fertile offspring.

“It was definitely a game changer at that point,” Laura Buck, an evolutionary anthropologist who studies hybridization between hominin species, told BI.

Such is the case with Paul Pettit, an archaeologist at the University of Durham in the UK who specializes in the Paleolithic era.

“Even, say, 20 years ago, the behavior of Neanderthals was considered quite stupid, or at least quite limited, and Homo sapiens, on the contrary, was considered to be quoting Shakespeare, dancing around Europe,” he joked.

“It’s nonsense, of course, but it’s a very deeply held view,” he said.

Angela Saini, author of Transcendence: The Return of Racial Science, argues that there is a real risk of getting it wrong. Those who today have more Neanderthal DNA may be mistakenly considered inferior.

“This is what particularly angers me. It's something that only, you know, a hundred or so years ago, supposed similarities between Neanderthals and Aboriginal Australians were used as justification to take modern humans out of the fold of humanity,” she said.
“If Neanderthals and Denisovans had survived, how would we cope today?” - said Paabo.

“Would we experience even more racism towards them than we experience among us today - because in some respects they were indeed different - or we might think differently and say that if they had been we have today, wouldn't we just have one type of people? " he added.

[Aviator_]

also in South and East Asia, where people were the first to have chickens.

I don’t know how it is in these places, but wild chickens were found in abundance in the spurs of the Pamirs back in the 30s of the last century. In particular, it was at this time that my grandfather went to collect eggs from wild chickens in the Fergana Valley. We drove along Kasan-say, which flows near Namangan. He said they brought it in cartloads.

[Alexey Alekseev_5]

They killed children... Shpakovsky went completely brutal. This is truly woe from the mind.

[Eugene Zaboy]

In fact, with an average estimated speed of population movement of 1 kilometer per year, there was no need to kill children. Most likely, the living conditions of ancient people were more comfortable than researchers imagine. If we assume that the eggs of wild chickens were transported by carts. After the discovery of Urengoy, the staff, for many years, were fed wild birds and animals, obtained almost industrially. Until stocks run out. Collecting eggs of wild birds (for example, rooks and crows) was also entrusted to children, some 50 years ago.

[tlauicol]

Quote: Alexey Alekseev_5

They killed children... Shpakovsky went completely brutal. This is truly woe from the mind.

Many modern tribes did this in the 20th century

[Sergey Sfiedu]

It seems to be more common among farmers in areas of risky farming. . Hunter-gatherers, as a rule, had enough of the natural death of children from hunger, cold, infections, predators + miscarriages among women during migrations. But they also had infanticide

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

Hunter-gatherers, as a rule, had enough of the natural death of children from hunger, cold, infections, predators + miscarriages among women during migrations.

What transfers? How do you imagine that? The Neanderthal man rolls up a mountain of skins, about 100 kilograms, and places this bundle on the powerful neck of his wife. He places the children on top. Does he himself collect spears, stone axes, food supplies and, with all this completely non-tourist junk, migrate hundreds of kilometers? Impossible. If they moved, they moved from site to site over very short distances, gradually moving in a certain direction over thousands of years. Yes, the hunters made marches, but then returned. Everything is like ours. I went on vacation and to work.
Can you imagine how much aurochs skin weighs?

[Alexey Alekseev_5]

They killed children... Shpakovsky went completely brutal. This is truly woe from the mind.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

They killed children... Shpakovsky went completely brutal. This is truly woe from the mind.

Infanticide was quite widespread. Google it.

[faterdom]

Symbiosis with dogs is probably much older. Once I watched a film about the life of a pack of hamadryas, they kidnapped a wolf puppy, and he, having grown up in this pack, became its member, a little unusual, but full-fledged and nomadic with it.
And the opposite examples under Mowgli are common knowledge.
Here and there are pack animals, higher ones, mastering methods of organized hunting, with a hierarchical social consciousness, and this allows them to integrate into society.
Cats are something else; we are an element of their convenient individual destiny. From their point of view, they are the main ones.

[Sergey Sfiedu]

flocks of hamadryas, they kidnapped a wolf puppy

Hamadryas live in Africa, but there are no wolves in Africa. African wolves = jackals, jackals are highly tamed. Wolves are being tamed (at least that’s what they write, don’t throw slippers if there is other data) only in dairy age. I started eating meat - that’s it, you can’t tame it. It turns out that in order to tame a wolf, primitive women had to breastfeed puppies (the Ainu fed bear cubs this way, but is human milk suitable for wolf cubs?). True, there is another option that the psychology of ancient wolves was different from the psychology of modern ones, and was closer to curious and friendly jackals.

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quote: Sergey Sfyedu

Therefore, it is necessary to conduct thorough research on Cro-Magnons.....the DNA level of Neanderthals will show who descended from whom and where.

Already done. Just Google it.

Googled it! See above.

[certero]

Well, how can we not mention potatoes?