Project 22160 Corvettes: benefit performance of the ugly duckling

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Project 22160 Corvettes: benefit performance of the ugly duckling

There were so many comments in Russia about the Project 22160 ships, and there was a place on our pages. For example, here: "Innovative insanity" of patrol ships of project 22160 Maxim Klimov. Furious, controversial, but to the point.

In fact, project 22160 is really the most failed naval ship project in stories new Russia. The ships' disadvantages not only outweigh their advantages, there are no advantages! The small displacement resulted in insufficient seaworthiness. Modular weapons were never developed and produced, and the ships went into service with simply ridiculous weapons: a 76 mm cannon and a pair of 14,5 mm machine guns.



Indeed, in terms of actual weapons, Project 22160 has no analogues in the world. You can be proud, because only anti-sabotage boats are weaker.

Plus, the “innovative” lines (Russia is really obsessed with innovation) turned out to be so unsuccessful that the speed of the ships was at the level of armored cruisers from the Russo-Japanese War.

The only advantage is its quite decent autonomy and cruising range. True, at a frankly pathetic speed of 16 knots.

And suddenly - here you are! Solemn reports that these ships turned out to be almost the most useful in repelling naval attacks drones September 13 and 14 to the ships of the Black Sea fleet Russia.

Some are already saying out loud that these ships turned out to be the most effective weapons countering maritime drones. It's debatable, but we'll try to figure out how it all happened. And how “unique combat capabilities” these ships actually have. For everyone must be rewarded according to his deeds, isn’t it?

A bit of history.


Project 22160 was created by the Northern Design Bureau from St. Petersburg, conceived as an ordinary patrol vessel, without “unparalleled” ones, without any power and record-breaking characteristics. In general, it’s an ordinary rank 3 patrol corvette. In the future - with guided missile weapons, without prospects - well, in the end the fleet received without prospects.

The tasks that such corvettes must perform are simple and uncomplicated: patrolling a 200-mile economic zone, chasing away pirates and smugglers, if any, providing assistance to those in distress at sea, participating in monitoring operations, protecting various objects such as the Crimean Bridge and so on.

In wartime, such ships, in addition to patrol service, must search for and attack enemy submarines, fight surface ships of their class and below, strike enemy sea and ground targets, solve air defense problems, and provide support to their older brothers, corvettes and frigates. In general, it does everything that a universal ship should.

So, Project 22160 corvettes cannot do any of the above. Simply because they have nothing.


In general, missiles are a kind of fetish for our fleet. It all went back to Soviet times, and every ship in our fleet was required to carry something from the missile arsenal on board. Frighteningly deadly.


This applied to everyone - from an aircraft-carrying cruiser, which became a cruiser, and not an aircraft carrier, because it had a solid set of anti-ship monsters, to a small missile boat with four small missiles, which, nevertheless, could seriously puzzle the same corvette or frigate.

And in general, the idea was quite good: the output was perhaps a strange fleet, variegated, but bristling with a huge number of missiles of various calibers.

But the patrol ship project 22160 became such an exception.


Let me quote from one of our large media outlets on the topic of armament of type 22160 corvettes.

“The small displacement of the Project 22160 patrol ship did not allow it to be equipped with a universal launcher of the modern Kalibr missile system - the same as on the small Karakurt missile ships or corvettes and frigates of modern projects.”


Corvettes and frigates of modern projects, with a stretch, let's say okay. The Vasily Bykov was laid down in 2014, which clearly makes it an old ship of an outdated design, doesn’t it?

Let's look at "Vasily Bykov" and "Karakurt" in terms of displacement and armament.


"Karakurt" is small, but very poisonous.


Standard displacement "Vasily Bykov"/"Karakurt" - 1500/800 tons

Artillery: 1 x 76mm on both ships.

Extra charges:
"Vasily Bykov" - 2 x 14,5 mm "Sting"
"Karakurt" - 2 x 12,7 mm "Kord"

Flak:
"Vasily Bykov" - no
"Karakurt" - 2 × 6 30-mm ZAU AK-630M or 1 x 2 30-mm "Pantsir-ME"

Anti-aircraft missiles:
"Vasily Bykov" - 8 MANPADS "Igla-S" or "Verba"
"Karakurt" - 8 MANPADS "Igla-S" / "Verba" or 6 missiles of the "Pantsir-ME" complex ("Pantsirs" are installed on all ships of the project, starting from the third).

Tactical missile weapons:
"Vasily Bykov" - no
“Karakurt” - 8 UVP 3S14 cells for “Caliber” or “Onyx”

Now, if someone has righteous indignation at the fact that something incomprehensible is happening at all, and how so many weapons were stuffed into an 800-ton ship, but there was no room for a 1500-ton corvette, then it’s not worth it.

"Vasily Bykov" has a helicopter.


And this requires a lot of space. Plus, if you look at the autonomy figures, the Vasily Bykov can patrol at sea for up to 60 days, but for the Karakurt this figure is four times less.

The struggle between autonomy and helicopters against missile weapons ended with some kind of compromise: Project 22160 was made, seemingly, modular. That is, according to the combat mission, the ship could be equipped with what it needed: missile, anti-submarine and other types of weapons. And by default, the ship remained practically “empty”: without missile and torpedo weapons.

In general, the equipment turned out to be interesting: there is a good Positive-MK radar, but only a 76-mm gun is “attached” to it. There is an Ariadne sonar, but there are no depth charges, no anti-submarine torpedoes, nothing that could be used to attack a submarine. All this was supposed to be done later. This is how we usually do it.

“Vasily Bykov” and the rest of the corvettes were supposed to receive specially developed container launchers for the Kh-35 “Uran” anti-ship missiles or “Caliber-K” cruise missiles. According to the project, each ship was supposed to take on board two containers with four missiles each.

But alas, the SVO began, then complications began at sea, and all four ships of Project 22160 were left with a cannon and two machine guns in terms of armament.

But don't discount the radar.

In general, the main means of detection for corvettes is the Fourke radar, which operates in the 10 cm range. This radar cannot be called optimal specifically for working on stealthy low-flying and surface targets (especially surface ones); its tasks lie on a slightly different plane.

But the ships of Project 22160 turned out to have a trump card - this is the Pozitiv-MK radar, operating in the 3-cm wavelength range (X-band).


The radar was installed naturally for the use of missiles. Otherwise, why would a patrol corvette have a radar that can “look” at 300 km? With a phased array antenna... Yes, the Positive will not take as many targets as the Fourke can take for escort, but it doesn’t need it. But he takes on small-sized targets, and, as practice has shown, quite well.

So it turned out that, on the one hand, a good radar coupled with the fire control system of the MP-123 “Baghira” and the AK-176MA-01 with a rapid-fire 76-mm cannon is more than enough to see and destroy such a difficult target as a six-meter boat without a crew.


In general, when I watched the video from on board one of the boats that had not sailed, I had a clear confidence that they were shooting at it from an onboard MTPU with a 14,5 mm machine gun. The 76mm gun was hitting another boat.

This suggests that the crew of the corvette had very decent training, since this happened at night. That is, the crew at least had a night vision device that the gunner could and knew how to use. Plus the necessary skills in shooting practice. Yes, the boat was able to get quite close to the ship, but the calculation worked as it should and the boat did not reach.


And on Project 22160 corvettes, you can additionally install 12,7-mm Cordas, which are quite suitable for working against such targets as uncrewed kamikaze boats.

Now someone can say: this has already happened somewhere. That's right, here it is:

Anti-aircraft guns that won't fire into the sky against torpedoes for beggars
Swan song of sparrows?

And there was an article a year ago about hunting for drones using an aircraft with a piston engine and high-speed machine guns of the ShKAS type.

And in principle, everything turned out as predicted. And the events of September 13 and 14 only confirmed the predictions made. On September 13, “Vasily Bykov” destroyed three naval drones, and on September 14, the same type “Sergey Kotov” was attacked by five. And all five kamikaze boats were destroyed.

Indeed, under such conditions, missiles would be practically useless. The target sizes are too small, they provide too little heat or radar response to the radar, and they are too cheap.

Whatever one may say, modern anti-ship systems are created to work against normal ships, and not against targets the size of an inflatable boat. And here a rapid-fire artillery system, and even a machine gun, look more preferable.

So it turned out that a patrol ship with a cannon and two machine guns became a more effective fighter of naval drones than a similar corvette, but armed with missiles. The paradox of war, but it is what it is.


But Project 22160 ships also have helicopters. This is also a very effective weapon against kamikaze boats. A helicopter from above will be able to easily see the boats by their wake. And if you don’t attack with airborne weapons (and now it would be nice to have machine guns on all reconnaissance helicopters), then give exact coordinates to the ship.

And here the greater autonomy of patrol corvettes also turns out to be very useful, especially if we remember the assurances of some people on the other side that they will have as many kamikaze boats as necessary.

That is, there simply must be a patrol service in places where such mine ships may possibly approach our borders. Kamikaze boats should be destroyed not in ports, but far away on the approaches to them.

It is clear that project 22160 is not only not the most successful in our fleet, it is rather the most unsuccessful. And therefore, after the last two ships are accepted into the Black Sea Fleet, no more will be built, and this is an absolutely correct decision. But with six ships that can combat maritime drones very effectively, it would be criminal not to do so to the fullest.

The only thing that can complicate the work of these ships is the complete defenselessness of the ships in terms of air defense. It simply doesn’t exist; several MANPADS are an opportunity to shoot down a drone, but not a modern aircraft that decides to attack a corvette. Therefore, if we are seriously talking about the fact that Project 22160 corvettes will actually patrol the waters at a distance from coastal complexes, then it simply needs at least minimal protection from aircraft and anti-ship missiles.

Moreover, an excellent radar already exists. It would just be a shame to lose such useful ships from the actions of enemy missilemen or pilots. Protecting and guarding ports directly at their entrance is also not the best, because it risks the fact that sooner or later a kamikaze boat will slip past the defenders.

In general, there is something to be surprised and happy about, and something to think about.
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  1. +13
    22 September 2023 04: 01
    So it turned out that a patrol ship with a cannon and two machine guns became a more effective fighter of naval drones than a similar corvette, but armed with missiles.
    Yes, because the naval base was guarded by something that was unsuitable for other purposes, in the conditions of a strange war, that’s all
    1. +20
      22 September 2023 07: 00
      A warship of the Russian Navy must be capable of fighting. But modern naval combat can only be waged by a multi-purpose guided missile ship. Or a formation of ships performing a specialized task, an amphibious operation, an anti-submarine operation, an anti-mine operation, a convoy operation, and the list goes on. Not only a limited battle with a converted jet ski of a country without a navy or air force, but to be able to at least protect itself from modern means of attack by incredible partners and, ideally, also complete the task. 22160 will not even be able to protect itself from underwater, air, or missile threats. And yes, all these threats are quite within the capabilities of a multifunctional guided missile corvette/frigate. You can remember the 61st project, which is from the 60s, which has much more in total than the two 22160, and to Istanbul for a couple of weeks he would have taken a helicopter for you.
      And I would give it for thirty knots if such a need arose. That is, a normal warship of a 60-year-old project laughs at an innovative one with “limited combat effectiveness.” 
      1. +5
        22 September 2023 07: 06
        A modern naval battle
        - interesting remark... What should it be like?
        1. +3
          22 September 2023 08: 34
          Quote: Reklastik
          A modern naval battle
          - interesting remark... What should it be like?

          What modern weapons of destruction do you know that are applicable in the open sea?))) These are what a modern ship should use and be protected from them. But this ship cannot be released from the base)) or even better, welded to the pier)
          1. +4
            22 September 2023 12: 30
            Modern means of destruction are now swarms of drones, both air and sea.
            And a guided missile ship is far from optimal against them; the optimal ship is a carrier of its own drones, which has powerful small-caliber anti-aircraft/anti-boat artillery.
            1. 0
              22 September 2023 14: 54
              That is, the same ship in the dimensions of a corvette or frigate at a minimum? Then what is unique about this ship? If it turns out the same thing, only the UAV as an addition
              1. +1
                23 September 2023 06: 36
                Well, how about “the same thing”? URO takes up space and costs money. The corvette-frigate has neither cabins for UAV operators, nor a hangar for them and spare parts. And the runway on a corvette-frigate is much smaller, which means fewer UAVs can be kept in the air at the same time.
                There is nothing at all for naval drones on corvette frigates, but 22160 has a special hangar and a crane at the stern.
          2. -1
            22 September 2023 17: 09
            Quote: JD1979
            Quote: Reklastik
            A modern naval battle
            - interesting remark... What should it be like?

            What modern weapons of destruction do you know that are applicable in the open sea?))) These are what a modern ship should use and be protected from them. But this ship cannot be released from the base)) or even better, welded to the pier)

            Yes, judging by what we saw, even when pulled ashore, the target is still destroyed...
          3. 0
            22 September 2023 17: 28
            Quote: JD1979
            Quote: Reklastik
            A modern naval battle
            - interesting remark... What should it be like?

            What modern weapons of destruction do you know that are applicable in the open sea?))) These are what a modern ship should use and be protected from them. But this ship cannot be released from the base)) or even better, welded to the pier)

            Then all your ships will be the size of a destroyer. Even the US cannot afford this.
        2. +3
          22 September 2023 09: 14
          Quote: Reklastik
          What should it be?

          It is carried out in all environments simultaneously. And the ship must be able to control these environments, be able to conduct an effective defense in such an environment and inflict damage on the enemy.
          1. 0
            23 September 2023 06: 38
            Well, 22160 can control all three environments (unlike, for example, Karakurt), but at a minimum, at the PPDSS level. This is sufficient against drones, as was demonstrated in the Black Sea.
          2. +3
            23 September 2023 19: 37
            Quote: Doccor18
            Quote: Reklastik
            What should it be?

            It is carried out in all environments simultaneously. And the ship must be able to control these environments, be able to conduct an effective defense in such an environment and inflict damage on the enemy.

            If we talk about ships of approximately the same VI and corvette class, then we must remember that the main task of a corvette is the anti-aircraft defense of bases, ensuring the output of SSBNs, SSGNs and MAPLs to the database, as well as conducting OVR. These are by definition littoral ships. But we don’t have such people. And Projects 20380 and 20385 are built in a relatively limited series, are too expensive and are not optimal in terms of armament.
            But about a month ago there was information that Kolomna had cast the first cylinder block for the R-500 (on which they still could not agree with the Moscow Region on an interesting series for production) and was already ready to cast the second such cylinder block. The power of this engine is 10 hp, it is medium-speed and a direct relative of those diesel engines that are installed on projects 000 and 22350\20380, and should also be installed on two new BDKs that are being built in Kaliningrad.
            And this is truly an event.
            If we have such an engine, then very interesting prospects will open up not only for improving the characteristics of Project 22350, but also... for creating a normal light corvette - that very “Super-Karakurt”. Moreover, its power plant can be made both on two such diesel engines (then with a VI of 1200 tons, its speed can be up to 30 knots), and according to the classic three-shaft/three-engine scheme for Karakurt. Then its VI can be 1500 and even 1700 tons at a speed of over 30 knots. The armament of such a corvette should be like that of the Karakurt + anti-submarine complex. BUGAS and submersible sonar on the foot, "Package-NK" with two launchers on the sides. A helicopter hangar is not needed (these are littoral ships, after all), but a helipad can be provided. Air defense - "Pantsir-M" and the corresponding radar. The strike complex is UKSK with 12 cells, in which, depending on the tasks at hand, there can be both PLUR and anti-ship missiles "Onyx\"Zircon" and\or "Caliber". And a 100 mm gun.
            The cost of such a ship will be around 12 billion rubles. (Karakurt has 8-9 billion rubles, depending on the air defense system, with Pantsir about 9 billion). This will turn out to be a very playful, seaworthy and toothy universal BMZ ship, made exclusively on available components. Therefore, R&D will not take much time (we don’t have it anyway), and production should be entrusted to “Pelle” (as well as R&D), as well as “Zelenodolsk” and the Kerch “Zaliv”.
            In the Far East it is better to find a contractor not in Komsomols-on-Amur, but in Primorye. Without distracting the ASZ from work on corvettes 20385 and frigates 22350.1.
            Such ships will be able not only to effectively search for enemy submarines in a group and protect the water area, but also to carry out strike missions to defeat enemy ships and strike coastal and land targets. If such (strike) missions are carried out at some distance from the bases, they can/should be led by a frigate with a medium-range air defense system.
            Ships of this class and this configuration/armament composition should be in all fleets of the Russian Navy in sufficient quantities. At the Pacific Fleet - at least 12 pieces. (6 pieces each in Kamchatka and Vladivostok), in the Northern Fleet - from 6 to 12 pieces. , in the Baltic - 6 pcs. , in the Black Sea Fleet - up to 12 pcs. taking into account their services in the Mediterranean Sea as part of the 5th operational squadron.
            If such a program is adopted and implemented as soon as possible, the issue of ensuring the security of the BMZ, including the exclusive economic zone of the Russian Federation, will be resolved. And this decision will not be ruinous.
            And Kolomna will receive a very good and long order for its new R-500 diesel engines. Which will be in demand not only for these corvettes and frigates, project 22350.1X, but also for new/promising UDC and BDK, integrated supply ships of the Fleet, high-speed fleet supply tankers, as well as in the civilian sector.
            If only “effective managers” don’t fall in love with such opportunities.
            hi
            1. 0
              23 September 2023 20: 06
              6 missiles of the Pantsir-ME complex

              In general, the Pantsir-M air defense missile system has a 32 missile missile system + 8 missile defense missiles on the combat module
              only 40 missiles
              1. 0
                24 September 2023 10: 41
                Quote: Romario_Argo
                In general, the Pantsir-M air defense missile system has a 32 missile missile system + 8 missile defense missiles on the combat module
                only 40 missiles

                I know this, but for the life of me I don’t understand who you quoted. request
          3. -1
            23 September 2023 22: 25
            Quote: Doccor18
            And the ship must be able to control these environments, be able to conduct an effective defense in such an environment and inflict damage on the enemy.

            Theoretically, it should, but in practice, the “bad” patrolman copes with the current threat, and the great cruiser received a couple of Neptunes in the side. So in the current war, a patrolman is preferable to a cruiser, no matter how excited the local public is about destroyers and aircraft carriers.
            1. 0
              24 September 2023 21: 08
              Are 10 Av for 100000 vi still needed? Nkzhny already now (not after the Finnish divisions) are steppe for both the Caucasus and the Altai and the shores of the Caspian Sea. + mountain brigades. To Asia.
      2. +7
        22 September 2023 12: 00
        Quote: ZhEK-Vodogrey
        You can remember the 61st project,

        Let's remember! For example, I remember how the BOD Resolute heroically chased Japanese fishermen under the Soviet flag at the Moroccan Fish Bank, did he need it? I remember how the BOD Skory convoyed bulk carriers with military cargo to Libya, how the BOD Soobrazitelny changed the EM. Bedovy in Luanda on the Argentine wheat line, as the BOD Provovny exchanged the BOD Smetlivy in the South Atlantic on the Patagonian shelf to protect our fishermen!
        And who then laughed at whom???
      3. +5
        22 September 2023 12: 11
        Quote: ZhEK-Vodogrey
        A warship of the Russian Navy must be capable of fighting. But modern naval combat can only be waged by a multi-purpose guided missile ship. Or a formation of ships performing a specialized task, an amphibious operation, an anti-submarine operation, an anti-mine operation, a convoy operation, and the list goes on. Not only a limited battle with a converted jet ski of a country without a navy or air force, but to be able to at least protect itself from modern means of attack by incredible partners and, ideally, also complete the task.

        You have just thrown out everything from the Navy except ships of the first and partly the second rank.
        The only question is: how can these proud beauties get out of the harbor? Who will provide PLO and PMO at the exit/entry and generally at the base on standby? wink

        The Navy has a cloud of small specialized ships that are incapable of conducting a full-fledged naval battle, but are invaluable in terms of military operations. And, in order not to receive a reproach from opponents for bias in comparing the corvette with a full-fledged multi-purpose URO ship, that is, EM, it would be better to compare the patrol 22160 with them.

        Moreover, even in comparison with the “standard” MPK, our patrolman still acts as a deaf dove of peace. But what else can you expect from PSKR BOHR - it was originally designed for a completely different department.
        1. +3
          22 September 2023 17: 52
          Quote: Alexey RA
          What else can you expect from PSKR BOHR - it was originally designed for a completely different department.

          That's the whole point.
          But there is an opportunity to sweeten the pill a little.
          1. 22160 is carried by a HELICOPTER! But for some reason no one remembers him. And the helicopter can: carry 2 small-sized ET-1 type PLO torpedoes. 12 RGAB - enough for a cut-off barrier. The same skewer can carry 2 X-35U anti-ship missiles (it can change the ammunition a couple of times if necessary). At the very least, there is a GAS, you can also work on the VNTs... The radar is also there... (So what else do you need the devil!? (c))).
          Next.
          2. Space for special load containers is available. Load them with "shelves" with GERANIUM, like the Persians do - here's a raider for you! Geranium has D=1000+ km.
          3. If you don’t want to “do floriculture”, take a block with an air defense system. At least the same PANTSIR-ME. Cheap and cheerful. etc. The shift load can be different, you just need to want it and not be a goon with R&D.
          About the spit. Our relic Ka-27 (PS/PL, etc.) should have occupied a space in the museum of the history of naval aviation for a long time. But the old man continues to be raped in every way! Cause? There is no money for a new ship-based helicopter. There are projects, there is a desire... but “there is no willpower!” (c)
          4. Project 22160 patrol ships can also carry UUVs for monitoring offshore gas pipelines. There are at least 2 of these at the Black Sea Fleet! That’s why 6 units were built here...at the request of the “poor Gazprom oligarchs.”
          And then suddenly the SVO happened... And they had to “solve problems that are not typical” for a PC.
          Somehow, however.
          AHA.
          1. +3
            22 September 2023 18: 47
            Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
            1. 22160 is carried by a HELICOPTER! But for some reason no one remembers him. And the helicopter can: carry 2 small-sized ET-1 type PLO torpedoes. 12 RGAB - enough for a cut-off barrier. The same skewer can carry 2 X-35U anti-ship missiles (it can change the ammunition a couple of times if necessary).

            Maybe. For one flight. Because, as I already wrote, there is no cellar or ASP lift on the ship.
            At the Air Base, this topic was discussed for several months - with diagrams of the stern and detailed photos of the helipad. We compared it with 20380, which has all this. But at 22160 nothing was found for storing and transporting ASP.
            Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
            At least there is GAS

            With a range of about a kilometer? wink
            Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
            2. Space for special load containers is available. Load them with "shelves" with GERANIUM, like the Persians do - here's a raider for you!

            What for? The army does the same thing much more successfully. Not if we follow the old rule that no matter what the sailor does, he just gets bored, then - yes, let the Geraniums be launched. But every time the “geranium bearers” enter positions from which their UAVs can cover areas inaccessible to ground forces, it will turn into a full-fledged interspecific operation and will divert so many forces that the army will quickly close this shop, declaring that all these forces must be at the front to fight, not to amuse admirals.
            Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
            3. If you don’t want to “do floriculture”, take a block with an air defense system. At least the same PANTSIR-ME. Cheap and cheerful. etc.

            The problem is that the 22160 requires an autonomous warhead mounted on the deck or on the superstructure. Any other designs will require radical work to adapt the ship’s structures.
      4. +2
        23 September 2023 14: 17
        Modern combat, not only naval, and not only modern, is a very vague concept. It is impossible to be strong everywhere and at once; it is not possible demographically, financially, and for many other reasons. That is why there is an imperative - “reasonable sufficiency”. Which is applicable to almost everything.
    2. AAK
      +5
      22 September 2023 07: 04
      EMNIP for 5-7 years, model 22160 has been walking around all exhibitions, on which you can see 6 UVP for anti-aircraft missiles (4 between the gun and the wheelhouse and 1 on each side of the hangar) and 2 “Package-NK” and even instead of the Ka-27PL there is a “Katran” “... I didn’t see “Uranov” and “Kalibr” on the model... apparently they will be placed on the model for subsequent exhibitions...
      1. +10
        22 September 2023 12: 18
        Hehehehe... model 22160 with an air defense system between the gun and the wheelhouse is always referred to by adherents of the modular patrol - Well, there’s a place provided to put an air defense system. And they are very surprised when they are told that the place shown on the model in the real 22160 naval order is occupied by cabins and social amenities. And the question "where will we install the air defense missile system radar, the same "Nuts", and whether the cables for the complex were laid on the built ships“generally causes stupor - because in their minds, an air defense system is only an air defense system. smile
      2. +2
        23 September 2023 20: 11
        Quote: AAK
        For 5-7 years, model 22160 has been walking around all exhibitions, on which you can see 6 UVP for anti-aircraft missiles (4 between the gun and the control room and 1 on each side of the hangar) and 2 “Package-NK” and even instead of the Ka-27PL there is a “Katran”

        Yes, they have already sent both the USC and its leader Rakhmanov with these fantasies. They sent it far. And extremely categorically.
        The Navy doesn’t need ships like this, no matter how you brush them. These six are in the Black Sea Fleet and will carry out the OVR and look after the pipelines. Well, patrol services. Since there is already a job, there will be a job.
        But the Navy needs normal, full-fledged, inexpensive but still multifunctional light anti-submarine corvettes BMZ.
        Quote: bayard
        the same "Super-Karakurt". Moreover, its power plant can be made both on two such diesel engines (then with a VI of 1200 tons, its speed can be up to 30 knots), and according to the classic three-shaft/three-engine scheme for Karakurt. Then its VI can be 1500 and even 1700 tons at a speed of over 30 knots. The armament of such a corvette should be like that of the Karakurt + anti-submarine complex. BUGAS and submersible sonar on the foot, "Package-NK" with two launchers on the sides. A helicopter hangar is not needed (these are littoral ships, after all), but a helipad can be provided. Air defense - "Pantsir-M" and the corresponding radar. The strike complex is UKSK with 12 cells, in which, depending on the tasks at hand, there can be both PLUR and anti-ship missiles "Onyx\"Zircon" and\or "Caliber". And a 100 mm gun.
        The cost of such a ship will be around 12 billion rubles. (Karakurt has 8-9 billion rubles, depending on the air defense system, with Pantsir about 9 billion). This will turn out to be a very playful, seaworthy and toothy universal BMZ ship, made exclusively on available components. Therefore, R&D will not take much time (we don’t have it anyway), and production should be entrusted to “Pelle” (as well as R&D), as well as “Zelenodolsk” and the Kerch “Zaliv”.
    3. -2
      22 September 2023 10: 04
      What are you thinking? Fasten the Tor-2 to the stern with chains, as you have already done... And it will do... fellow
      1. +8
        22 September 2023 12: 20
        Quote: Monster_Fat
        What are you thinking? Fasten the Tor-2 to the stern with chains, as you have already done... And it will do... fellow

        Not just "Tor-2", but ABM "Tor-M2KM". The Ministry of Defense did not issue an order for the development of which, did not pay for R&D, and did not order the module itself. laughing
        1. +1
          23 September 2023 20: 18
          Quote: Alexey RA
          The Ministry of Defense did not issue an order for the development of which, did not pay for R&D, and did not order the module itself.

          The Moscow Region ordered very little at all. And what was ordered was not always paid for. The “Main Temple of the Russian Army” and the modernization of forts are much more important for tourists. And we will defend ourselves from the adversary with icons...
          Everything is like under Nicholas-2.
          It’s a pity that “Orthodox magic” did not work against the Japanese and Germans. lol
          1. +1
            24 September 2023 00: 03
            Under Nicholas 2, three dreadnoughts were built in Nikolaev in six years, which were larger than Moscow and newer at that time. And then they fought not with Ukraine, but with one of the leading economies in the world.
            1. 0
              25 September 2023 12: 19
              Quote from alexoff
              Under Nicholas 2, three dreadnoughts were built in Nikolaev in six years, which were larger than Moscow and newer at that time.

              Oh, it’s better not to remember this story. And he will immediately come up with the delivery of the state-owned Admiralty for free rent with the right to buy to an incomprehensible joint-stock company, which at the time of the transfer of property did not even have a Charter and did not hold a meeting of shareholders. And also an advance payment for the construction of the LC in an amount sufficient for the government to be able to rebuild this admiralty itself. And if you dig further, then figures such as Admiral Nilov, and behind him Surname, will stand behind the shareholders of the joint-stock company. wink
              And yes, these LCs were traditionally built with the help of foreign orders.
              The order in England for turbines, auxiliary mechanisms, propeller shafts and stern tube devices, placed by the Russud company at the John Brown plant, also caused a lot of excitement.

              It’s good that they didn’t order anything from Germany - like they did for Izmailov. smile
    4. 0
      22 September 2023 18: 07
      Any boat can be stuffed with cords with thermal protection and night vision devices. I don't see a problem at all. In WWII, anti-aircraft guns of much larger calibers were placed on every square centimeter
    5. 0
      23 September 2023 06: 19
      And shipping security. And the protection of oil pipelines.
  2. +6
    22 September 2023 04: 35
    But how technically difficult is it to attach a Pantsir-M, Broadsword, Kortik-M or even a Dagger (which is an air defense system) to this ship somewhere behind the radar, converting the hangar for a helicopter? Well, here we have all our aviation standing in the open air for decades and nothing will tolerate a helicopter on the street. If it’s so difficult to plow vertical shafts, then what’s stopping you from attaching Uranium anti-ship missiles to the sides near the hangar exit? Or a pair of Packet-NK, since there is a hydroacoustic station? Well, they didn’t make the modules, so what can you do? There are questions for the prosecutor’s office. But why can’t we permanently attach something that has been on other ships for a long time? It is clear that this is not two comments to write on VO, but such wastefulness is completely incomprehensible - the ship exists, somehow it floats, there is not much money and there is no prospect of it, so why not attach something missile-based to this floating radar with a machine gun? Well, the sailors will make room, somewhere new wires will have to be laid, but the combat potential will immediately increase from almost zero to at least an RTO
    1. +7
      22 September 2023 04: 44
      Quote from alexoff
      Well, here we have all our aviation standing in the open air for decades and nothing will tolerate a helicopter on the street.

      In a stormy sea, and even with such a tonnage, the conditions will be harsher, to put it mildly.
      1. +4
        22 September 2023 12: 38
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        In a stormy sea, and even with such a tonnage, the conditions will be harsher, to put it mildly.

        Pre-departure preparation and post-flight service will be especially good. Technicians will be simply ecstatic at the opportunity to work in the fresh air of a helipad, and even from ladders/hoods. smile
        1. +3
          22 September 2023 16: 00
          On a stepladder and hood, in “fresh” weather, and in a hangar it will not be fun. No one will simply carry out such work; they will wait for the weather to improve.
          1. 0
            22 September 2023 16: 12
            Quote: TermNachTER
            On a stepladder and hood, in “fresh” weather, and in a hangar it will not be fun. No one will simply carry out such work; they will wait for the weather to improve.

            The problem is that by the time the weather improves, the plane must be ready for departure.
            And the permissible conditions for working in a hangar are still somewhat wider than on the site (The morning is gray. The rods are slimy. In icy water smile ). Moreover, on a completely unequipped site.
            1. 0
              23 September 2023 14: 20
              Is it better to fly upside down from 2,5 m, with the engines unhooded or the top step of a stepladder? Do you think the head of the warhead will want to be held accountable for injuries to personnel?
              1. 0
                25 September 2023 12: 25
                Quote: TermNachTER
                Do you think the head of the warhead will want to be held accountable for injuries to personnel?

                And he will be between Scylla and Charybdis. On the one hand - TB and possible injuries. And on the other hand - The first after God and failure to comply with his orders in combat conditions. sad
                But it’s better to do the pre-flight in the hangar - at least there’s something to fasten yourself to.
    2. +3
      22 September 2023 07: 42
      There is a “reserved” place for an air defense system in the form of a basketball court. And it seems like Thor is working his way there
    3. +6
      22 September 2023 12: 35
      Quote from alexoff
      But how technically difficult it is to attach Pantsir-M to this ship

      Ten tons of mass on the roof of the hangar. Plus below-deck volumes for RAV cellars and reloading mechanisms.
      Quote from alexoff
      Broadsword, Kortik-M or even Dagger (which is an air defense system)

      It is impossible in principle due to the lack of these systems in warehouses and in production. The last "Dirks" from the stock went to the Indians - that's why, by the way, out of all 20380 ZRAK received only the lead ship. But there was no “Dagger” even for “Kulakov”, which since Soviet times had been equipped with only one air defense system - we had to install “Gibka”.
      Quote from alexoff
      Well, here we have all our aviation standing in the open air for decades and nothing will tolerate a helicopter on the street.

      Yeah... until the first storm. And then the crew will pay its cost. smile
      Quote from alexoff
      Or a pair of Packet-NK, since there is a hydroacoustic station?

      22160 does not have GAS PLO. And regarding the “Packets,” Klimov has repeatedly written that their launchers are heavy, and the dynamic loads from the launchers on the ship’s structure are too great. In short, you will have to cut the body and reinforce the installation sites.
      1. -2
        22 September 2023 13: 39
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Ten tons of mass on the roof of the hangar. Plus below-deck volumes for RAV cellars and reloading mechanisms.

        Well, the hangar will no longer be a hangar, it will definitely feel better. You can also reduce it in size. The shell is not too high in height and should not go under the deck. Or is it just a bummer, the ship will fall apart, capsize, and the whole skiff?

        Quote: Alexey RA
        Yeah... until the first storm. And then the crew will pay its cost. smile

        Chain him like Thor to the deck. Or write it off altogether. What's the point of this helicopter now?
        Quote: Alexey RA
        In short, you will have to cut the body and reinforce the installation sites.

        Well, this seems to me to be a feasible task, cheaper than making a new anti-submarine boat. But if there is no GAS, then you can limit yourself to Uranium
        1. +1
          22 September 2023 16: 26
          Quote from alexoff
          Well, the hangar will no longer be a hangar, it will definitely feel better.

          It won’t make it any easier - instead of equipping the hangar, you’ll have to build a reinforcement structure for the roof and cutouts in it for a ten-ton module.
          There will also be an interesting task - what to do with the “horns” from the radar above the very edge of the hangar.
          Quote from alexoff
          You can also reduce it in size.

          The height cannot be changed - otherwise we will demolish everything from the roofs of small hangars and narrow the firing sector.
          Quote from alexoff
          Chain him like Thor to the deck. Or write it off altogether. What's the point of this helicopter now?

          What about the inspection of ships, for which 22160 were sent on patrol? DSHL? Or “Zodiacs” And how long will this acrobatics last, taking into account the fact that to use boats 22160 you need to approach the ship. I'm not even talking about the danger of getting into a "Sydney" - "Cormoran" situation.
          By the way, here is an interesting photo - a DShL on the slip of one of 22160. The height gap is impressive, right? But the climb through the lapport has only just begun.

          Quote from alexoff
          Well, this seems to me to be a feasible task, cheaper than making a new anti-submarine boat.

          It’s easier to make a new normal light TA for the “Package” torpedo instead of the “gun with torpedoes”. But for this, something needs to be done with the industries for which “Paekt” in its current form is more profitable.
          1. -1
            22 September 2023 17: 25
            Quote: Alexey RA
            It won’t make it any easier - instead of equipping the hangar, you’ll have to build a reinforcement structure for the roof and cutouts in it for a ten-ton module.

            From below, the Shell will rest on the floor of the hangar, which somehow supported a helicopter of approximately the same mass. As far as I remember, together with the under-deck Pantsir system, which is 4.5 meters high, finalizing the design will probably cost several times less than the air defense system itself.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            There will also be an interesting task - what to do with the “horns” from the radar above the very edge of the hangar.

            To be honest, I don’t know what kind of horns these are, I would suggest moving them closer to the nose. But if the hangar is no longer needed, then the air defense system can be placed somewhere behind the hangar closer to the stern, like at Karakurt.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            What about the inspection of ships, for which 22160 were sent on patrol?

            Since it is obvious that they will not sail further than the Black Sea, why not send helicopters from the unsinkable aircraft carrier Crimea? And use the ship as much as possible for jumping and refueling.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            It’s easier to make a new normal light TA for the “Package” torpedo instead of the “gun with torpedoes”. But for this, something needs to be done with the industries for which “Paekt” in its current form is more profitable.

            As I already wrote, this has been going on at VO for years and it should be on the “Prosecutor’s Review” website or something like that, it’s a pity that there isn’t such a thing.

            It’s good that no one wrote anything against the anti-ship missile system, apparently it’s not difficult
    4. +1
      22 September 2023 13: 33
      The point is that scolding the simplest patrol officers is not carrying bags. So why doesn’t the fleet roll out the MRK pr.1239 for patrol duty? And anti-ship missiles, and air defense systems, and a gun with metal cutters, and a radar... Don’t answer. I know it myself: “after all, this is different!”
      1. +1
        22 September 2023 15: 12
        Scharnhorst - it is possible that the problem is in their condition, and also in quantity. It is possible that the problem is the incompetence of the fleet command, the desire not to lose more warships as was the case with Moscow, and it is not known whether the two pennants that received missiles, including the Rostov-on-Don submarine, will ever really be restored.
        1. +1
          22 September 2023 16: 42
          The problem is in the detection tools. To fight fire ships you need a good radar and good optics, which Soviet dinosaurs do not have.
      2. -1
        22 September 2023 15: 24
        Quote: Scharnhorst
        The point is that scolding the simplest patrol officers is not carrying bags.

        So how much did these simple low-speed patrol vehicles cost? And why, given their size, are there so few installed on them? Why not make them more complicated, because it is definitely easier and cheaper than building new ones?
        Quote: Scharnhorst
        So why doesn’t the fleet roll out the MRK pr.1239 for patrol service? And anti-ship missiles, and air defense systems, and a gun with metal cutters, and a radar... Don’t answer. I know it myself: “after all, this is different!”

        I don’t have the slightest idea why the fleet uses only a few ships, perhaps they are skimping on fuel, perhaps there are red lines that it is impossible to fight smartly, that’s why they sent a couple of ships to Zmeiny, and the rest stood in the port, because these ships did nothing from the first days, although They could stupidly use artillery mounts to demolish, for example, a bridge in Zatoka or a port in Odessa. Submarines are generally needed for fun, apparently, because they could also patrol and sink boats. But the counter question is - what will go wrong if not the simplest patrol officers join the bora and the simoom, but complex patrol officers with air defense and anti-ship missiles?
        1. 0
          22 September 2023 16: 43
          They cost three times less than frigates 11356, not to mention the expensive 20350.
          1. 0
            22 September 2023 17: 05
            But in fact, for a third the price of a frigate, in terms of combat capabilities, the result was something on the level of an artillery boat 1208 with a helicopter, 21630 and it has more weapons.
            1. +2
              23 September 2023 06: 25
              Three patrolmen can cover three times the area of ​​one frigate for the same price.
              That's basically all.
              Against “terrorist” threats (low intensity, but distributed over a large area), large, sophisticated systems are almost useless; they are not enough to cover everything. That’s why on land there are MRAPs with machine guns, and at sea there are patrolmen.
              1. +1
                23 September 2023 14: 23
                Even the mattress makers, with their Bjorks, realized that for secondary tasks it was necessary to have simpler and cheaper ships. True, their “constellation” still doesn’t turn out to be cheap)))
              2. -1
                24 September 2023 00: 07
                In general, these don’t seem to be patrol officers, but there were some modules that were supposed to be something better than one artillery mount and a helicopter. But there are no modules, and there are no pirates either. During the war, guns were welded on civilian ships, but in 2023 faith does not allow welding missiles?
  3. +9
    22 September 2023 04: 50
    In general, there is something to be surprised and happy about, and something to think about.

    It seemed that after the sinking of the Moscow RK there was nothing to be surprised at, but another reason for surprise appeared in the form of a “traumatized” submarine...
    * * *
    Let me repeat myself, let my message look strange, but I assume that the creation of a fleet should presuppose a known goal and purpose, right down to the composition and purpose of specific types of ships... Simply put, the ships of the fleet should act in a comprehensive manner (as part of an order), where everyone has their own purpose and their own area of ​​responsibility for the safety (combat readiness) of the whole.
    One thing is clear: it is impossible to create a universal ship, and size does not always matter, but the creation of ships that do not have a priori advantages is the height of mismanagement and stupidity. Perhaps criminal stupidity...
    1. +5
      22 September 2023 06: 56
      Quote: ROSS 42
      that the creation of a fleet should presuppose a known goal and purpose, down to the composition and purpose of specific types of ships..

      Absolutely so, it should be considered an axiom, but something again, time after time, using the old rake...

      Quote: ROSS 42
      Simply put, fleet ships must operate in a comprehensive manner

      And not just ships, but everything in the Navy.
      Quote: ROSS 42
      One thing is clear: it is impossible to create a universal ship

      But we must try to do this, because over time all systems decrease somewhat in size and weight, which means a multi-purpose aircraft carrier/destroyer/nuclear submarine/frigate/KKS should become the basis. The mighty USSR tried, not from a good life, to “figure it out for two” (956 and 1155), but quickly realized that this was a utopia...

      Quote: ROSS 42
      and size doesn't always matter

      Almost always, because the larger the ship, the more combat capabilities, better seaworthiness and survivability, etc. But it is clear that without fanaticism...
      1. +3
        22 September 2023 16: 06
        Gigantomania is also not always good. A large ship requires a powerful power plant, such a plant requires a lot of fuel, etc., etc., ad infinitum. Secondly, construction and renovation. Large ships require large slipways and large docks for repairs, and there are not very many of them either. And this is just the beginning, we can continue for a long time.
        1. 0
          22 September 2023 18: 15
          Agree. It’s good for us to have ships that, if necessary, can be transferred from one theater of operations to another along inland rivers
          1. +1
            23 September 2023 14: 27
            It would be nice. But firstly, not everything will pass through inland waterways. (Although at one time, in Nizhny, they built nuclear submarines of considerable size). Secondly, there is a Pacific Fleet, which cannot be reached by internal routes. Yes, and the storm is there, “bless you,” and this requires appropriate seaworthiness, which entails the appropriate dimensions and freeboard height.
    2. +1
      22 September 2023 12: 43
      Quote: ROSS 42
      Let me repeat myself, let my message look strange, but I assume that the creation of a fleet should presuppose a known goal and purpose, down to the composition and purpose of specific types of ships.

      The worst thing is that the Navy has the most important goal and task, without which any other naval construction makes no sense. But the fleet stubbornly ignores it or carries it out purely formally, concentrating only on one link and not paying attention to others.
    3. +3
      22 September 2023 13: 44
      Not to spite your comment, but an example from another industry. MTLB - and they were in no hurry to adopt it into service, so come, give it, get out. But with market relations, we are now almost at the forefront of progress in all spheres of life. lol
  4. +3
    22 September 2023 04: 52
    Bagheera performed well. Good station, especially in the latest modifications
  5. +1
    22 September 2023 05: 21
    so it seems in July Mistakhov from AK Bars stated that a decision had been made to install Resurs and air defense systems on the last two ships
    container Calibers..or is this just another blah blah?,,,,,..
    https://ria.ru/20230708/korabli-1882921028.html
    1. +3
      22 September 2023 09: 50
      And how will a “resource” with expensive missiles and “Calibers” help against naval drones?
      The larger and more sophisticated the ship, the more expensive it is.
      The more expensive it is, the fewer such ships there are.
      The fewer such ships there are, the smaller the area they can protect from numerous and inconspicuous enemies.
      In total, to solve this problem you need a lot of cheap patrol officers, even if they are poorly armed. This is what we see - patrol ships are in first place in defeating naval drones (13 have already been destroyed).
  6. +3
    22 September 2023 05: 47
    The problem is that design bureaus and shipyards found themselves free to float after the collapse of the USSR, and were even privatized. The order, control, and design thought disappeared. It has become like in the West, lobbyism, nepotism, corruption. Example of the USA with littoral ships. Shipbuilding yards and design bureaus acquired patrons from former or current fleet commanders. And everyone promotes their product, no matter what it is in terms of combat characteristics.
    Hence the long production times and quality of ships.
    In principle, who is stopping you from equipping at least one ship of Project 22160 with everything that is planned and showing it in all its glory. Place containers with missiles (any kind) and other planned weapons.
    And so the commander left and the next one begins to promote his toy. soldier
    1. +4
      22 September 2023 07: 22
      Quote: V.
      The problem is that design bureaus and shipyards found themselves free to float after the collapse of the USSR, and were even privatized. The order, control, and design thought disappeared. It has become like in the West, lobbyism, nepotism, corruption. Example of the USA with littoral ships. Shipbuilding yards and design bureaus acquired patrons from former or current fleet commanders. And everyone promotes their product, no matter what it is in terms of combat characteristics.
      Hence the long production times and quality of ships.
      In principle, who is stopping you from equipping at least one ship of Project 22160 with everything that is planned and showing it in all its glory. Place containers with missiles (any kind) and other planned weapons.
      And so the commander left and the next one begins to promote his toy. soldier

      These same private shipyards in the USA produced a huge series of good Arleigh Burke destroyers.
      1. +3
        22 September 2023 08: 28
        Because someone, concerned about the combat effectiveness of the fleet and not about their own money, pushed and made sure that not too much was stolen and that the project was completed. The enemy also has such bosses. Private traders themselves won't do anything to the detriment of money. There was an order, they fulfilled it. A state shipyard would do it with the same success.
      2. +1
        22 September 2023 16: 12
        Ha - ha three times))) who told you such nonsense?))) "Bjerki" were built and are now being built according to government orders. The company receives financing and begins construction. As the work is completed, he receives further payments and so on until the ship is transferred to the fleet.
    2. +5
      22 September 2023 12: 47
      Quote: V.
      In principle, who is stopping you from equipping at least one ship of Project 22160 with everything that is planned and showing it in all its glory. Place containers with missiles (any kind) and other planned weapons.

      Mmm... let me think. what
      The lack of all weapon modules that should have been installed on 22160 may be hampered (as well as the lack of the largest forward installation site for modules). For the Navy ordered modular patrol ships, but did not order modules for them.
      No, it's some kind of nonsense. It’s clear that Obama, Trump and Biden are interfering! wink
  7. +9
    22 September 2023 06: 03
    Regarding the helicopter... A helicopter needs time to prepare and take off. This is not a car, you put the key in and drive away, but when attacked by drones, no matter what, this time does not exist. So a helicopter is a dubious plus in defense. And its restrictions on waves and wind are quite strict.
    1. 0
      22 September 2023 06: 05
      Quote from Voronezh
      A helicopter needs time to prepare and take off.
      That’s right, it’s impossible to conduct round-the-clock patrols with just one helicopter.
    2. +4
      22 September 2023 09: 43
      But the helicopter is capable of landing an inspection team, which the patrolman has already demonstrated once. Successfully.
    3. 0
      22 September 2023 16: 13
      A very reasonable idea. In the current situation, a helicopter and aviation kerosene on board are not only useless, but also dangerous.
  8. +1
    22 September 2023 06: 12
    22800 "6 missiles of the Pantsir-ME complex" ? He 32?
    1. 0
      22 September 2023 08: 39
      Probably 8 or 12, I don’t remember the picture, 32 would be the total BC for installation
  9. The comment was deleted.
  10. +3
    22 September 2023 07: 44
    And they were promoted by one of the ex-commanders in chief, who now works at USC as an adviser.
    1. +1
      22 September 2023 12: 54
      Quote: huntsman650
      And they were promoted by one of the ex-commanders in chief, who now works at USC as an adviser.

      Who resigned for health reasons after order 22160 - and immediately settled in the chair of the chief adviser to the President of USC on military shipbuilding. In short, I fit into the market.
      1. 0
        23 September 2023 14: 31
        The situation is similar everywhere. Before the admiral's (general's) chair in the Pentagon had even cooled down, its occupant had already landed in a private chair from a company supplying the Pentagon with relevant products. His salary just became several times larger.
        1. +1
          25 September 2023 12: 30
          Quote: TermNachTER
          The situation is similar everywhere. Before the admiral's (general's) chair in the Pentagon had even cooled down, its occupant had already landed in a private chair from a company supplying the Pentagon with relevant products. His salary just became several times larger.

          So the Yankees are generally a classic. There, the cycle of government structure - business - government structure has been established for a long time and works like clockwork. We can say that personal wool and state wool have grown together there. smile
          On January 15, 1953, the Senate Military Affairs Committee discussed his candidacy for the post of Secretary of Defense. When asked whose interests would be more important for the future minister - the country or his company, Wilson replied: “I used to believe that what is good for our country is good for General Motors, and vice versa. It is the same"

          You can also remember Dick “Halliburton” Cheney and the war in Iraq, during which most of the “tasty” contracts, by incredible coincidence, went to Halliburton. smile
  11. +7
    22 September 2023 08: 30
    The success of these "useless" ships is ensured by an effective combination of reconnaissance and combat control systems. This once again proves that one cannot stupidly compare the number of missiles and the power of their warheads. (Like the caliber of guns, km/h speed, etc.) Because any shooting begins with reconnaissance of the target. An armed blind man won't shoot much.
    As for this particular project, if anyone remembers, it was originally planned to place a “calm” air defense system there... With it, the ship would have looked completely different.. And, I think, it could well have carried out a combat watch in such a configuration the Zmeiny area without fear of “Neptunes” And inflatable boats with “brimstones and start tracks”, thereby ensuring a reliable exit for Russia from the grain deal.
    1. +1
      22 September 2023 09: 40
      So at one time he patrolled near Zmeinoye quite successfully, with the Tora module on the runway.
      1. +1
        22 September 2023 16: 24
        Thor, it’s good.. But with this placement, it gets a drop-dead dead zone in the front hemisphere.. And secondly, it occupies the flight deck, which any “alligator” could well use..
  12. 0
    22 September 2023 08: 33
    In my opinion, on the “Karakut” in the “Pantsir” there are two GSh 6 30 mm cannons, that is, two six-barreled guns in the “Pantsir”, and not 2 30 mm, as reported here in the article about TTD, which in this case means double-barreled 30 mm guns... I write “in my opinion” because it is possible that the latest “Pantsir M” really no longer has two six-barreled 30 mm cannons, but two double-barreled 30 mm cannons.
    Experts, please explain!
    1. +3
      22 September 2023 13: 07
      Quote: north 2
      In my opinion, on the “Karakut” in the “Pantsir” there are two GSh 6 30 mm cannons, that is, two six-barreled guns in the “Pantsir”, and not 2 30 mm, as reported here in the article about TTD, which in this case means double-barreled 30 mm guns

      The author simply confused the land and sea "Shell".
      The land version of the Pantsir, if it has a cannon unit, has two 2A38 twins:

      And the marine ZRAK, despite having a common name with its land counterpart, is de facto a combination of the carriage and cannon part of the “Kortik” (developed by the same design bureau) with the missile defense system and electronics of the land “Pantsir”. And on the "Kortika" there were exactly brrrrrrt - six-barreled AO-18K / 6K30GSh.
  13. +2
    22 September 2023 08: 48
    Instead of the Ka-27, you can place the Ka-226 with two GSh-23 hanging containers, or 12.7 mm machine guns. And then it will fit
    An Ak-630m at the stern is mandatory for everyone, or an air defense missile system module with 30 mm cannons, a Pantsir or similar.
    And it will work, the Ka-226 can also be used as an anti-submarine helicopter, it can easily take buoys and a couple of depth charges or one APR, but at the moment this is not relevant, now we need a GSh-23 and a radar soldier
    1. 0
      22 September 2023 15: 06
      Quote: air wolf
      Instead of the Ka-27, you can place the Ka-226 with two GSh-23 hanging containers, or 12.7 mm machine guns.

      Where can I get them from Rostec releases? There are no engines.
  14. +4
    22 September 2023 09: 08
    Here the question is, how many successful episodes of using backing were there on ships at sea? 0. There are 2 relatively successful episodes of the raid on Sevastopol that year. And the attack on the large landing ship in Novorossiysk. That is, both episodes are hopes for the security of ships in the base. Accordingly, the personnel rest thinking that they are safe.

    And at sea, the conventionally toothless scout kicked away from the boats. And if there are 30 of them here, the cruiser won’t be able to handle it
    1. +3
      22 September 2023 09: 42
      There the detection means are primary. Both the scout and the patrolman have very decent ones.
      And then, many machine guns can already be provided by the Marines.
      But better, of course, are modules like “Narwhal”; there are persistent rumors that they will also be installed on patrol units.
  15. -1
    22 September 2023 09: 40
    I remember there was a heated discussion on this resource about the uselessness of Project 22160, but the war put everything in its place))) and after the war it will be possible to talk about the modular installation of weapons. Including both “uranium” and “calibre” in container installations. According to the media, the last building of Project 22160 will go into operation already having a built-in "Thor". Considering that as the war progressed, they added range and b/c to it, it will turn out quite well.
    1. +4
      22 September 2023 09: 54
      At the time the series began, there simply was not a single normal air defense system for such ships. Therefore, we simply left a place and, fortunately, just in case, we covered the TOP module.
      TOR-MF would be ideal there, I really hope that they will finish it, but obviously this will not be very soon.
      Well, a couple or even four Narwhal modules with Cords. And that’s it - there’s no need to increase the price anymore, such boats should be cheap.
  16. -1
    22 September 2023 10: 29
    Are these the same corvettes on which land-based TORs were installed?
    1. 0
      22 September 2023 10: 41
      Not land ones, but modules specially designed for this purpose.
      Is it so surprising that modular air defense is installed on a modular ship?
      1. +7
        22 September 2023 11: 41
        Quote: keleg
        Not land ones, but modules specially designed for this purpose.

        These are the ground-based Tor-M2KMs, which are designed to organize target air defense. And weapons sudo during mobilization.
        For a ship, a 15-ton autonomous combat module (ABM) on a helipad, with a rotating turret, limited ammunition, a radar that does not see anything in the bow sectors, and a crew sitting in the module itself is an ordinary ersatz.
        The most painful place of ABM at sea is the BC. It is on land that a TZM can approach the module and recharge the UVP. But at sea there is no TZM, and you can only rely on the BC, which is already in the UVP. Even if there is a 16-round launcher, then these are 8 targets, some of which will be false. And that’s it - then the ship is defenseless from the air.
        Quote: keleg
        Is it so surprising that modular air defense is installed on a modular ship?

        Yes. It’s surprising that a land ABM is attached to a specialized modular ship on the helipad with chains and ropes, depriving the ship of a helicopter. Despite the fact that, according to the concept of a modular ship, weapon modules must be installed in specially designated volumes in the hull, without interfering with the use of other weapon systems.

        And the funny thing is that no one ordered the "Tor-M2KM" ABM "Kupola" - this is an initiative development. Which got the opportunity to work from the deck only because the design bureau needed an experimental stand to test the seaborne Tor-MF. Even ship tests were carried out method of horizontal connections - the design bureau management agreed with the Black Sea Fleet.

        In the case of 22160 modular air defense system healthy individual - this is not a single ABM, but a set of 6-8 separate modules connected to pre-wired wiring and installed in optimal locations. The radar module is mounted on a mast so that the shaded sectors are minimal. The control module, or rather the workplaces of the operators and the commander of the air defense system, are located in the CIC. And 4-6 UVP modules fit into slots under the upper deck (or in the superstructure). And no monstrous control cabins or rotating towers.
        1. +1
          22 September 2023 12: 25
          And adapt such a “healthy person kit” for each ship? No, this is wild re-engineering and again attempts to make an ideal solution somewhere in the future.
          The current TOR module (with 16 new missiles, of course) is quite functional, it doesn’t matter what it is to defend - a patrol boat, an icebreaker, or a naval base. And this is the optimal cost solution.
          Yes, this is not ideal. But a modular solution is always imperfect, but it works.
          1. +2
            22 September 2023 13: 25
            Quote: keleg
            And adapt such a “healthy person kit” for each ship?

            No. The set consists of standard modules of standard dimensions. And places for modules should be laid out when designing a ship - depending on the purpose and class. For small ones, 2-4 UVP with 1 radar will be enough, but for large ones, the set will have to be expanded.
            Quote: keleg
            The current TOR module (with 16 new missiles, of course) is quite functional, it doesn’t matter what it is to defend - a patrol boat, an icebreaker, or a naval base.

            It is suboptimal in terms of weight, layout solutions and ammunition (8 targets / decoys - and in the base). And it is suitable only as a temporary measure - for the hasty arming of mobilized civilian courts.
            Specially designed warships must carry full-fledged air defense systems or at least standard installation sites for them. And not like now, when the advertised modular ship does not have a single combat module, and there are only two places for installing any modules. wink
            This whole carousel with ABM is a direct consequence of the fact that the Navy decided in the mid-2010s that it did not need Kupol’s products; it would make do with Pantsir-M.
        2. 0
          22 September 2023 16: 18
          These were old modules for eight missiles.
      2. +3
        22 September 2023 16: 17
        These were ordinary "Torahs", in a stationary version, from some import order. Those that were rejected, so they were adapted to the ship. They even have their own power plant, which is in no way connected with the ship’s.
      3. +1
        22 September 2023 20: 19
        It's surprising that you call the land-based Thor confused
  17. +2
    22 September 2023 11: 15
    Project 22160 is really the most failed naval ship project in the history of new Russia.
    [/ Quote]
    Well, this is just the fantasy of an offended captain of the 3rd rank, accepted as truth on the pages of VO, including at your suggestion, Mr. Admiral! Unlike Klimov, you, Roman, can be forgiven for this...after all, to be a wide-profile specialist in the topic of crawling, flying, jumping and floating equipment does not necessarily require knowledge of the economic and military component of the Navy in peacetime!
    [quote]The tasks that such corvettes must perform are simple and uncomplicated: patrolling a 200-mile economic zone, chasing away pirates and smugglers, if any, providing assistance to those in distress at sea, participating in monitoring operations, protecting various objects like that the Crimean Bridge and so on.

    Mister Admiral, the only task of these corvettes is to guard convoys in peacetime! And these “Bulls” were supposed to work on the Tartus-North Africa line! This is why they have increased autonomy, and a helicopter on board, and the Pozitiv-MK radar with the Ariadne sonar system, also from here!
    Even the fact that the Bykovs are in service only with the Black Sea Fleet did not bother the captain of the 3rd rank or you! You and I have already found out, but the submariner, Romanian, captain of the 3rd rank, due to his youth, had not even heard about how warships of the 1st and 2nd ranks, exhausting their materiel, heroically protected fishing areas in the vast oceans, protected convoys with capitalist wheat heading to the richest and happiest country! So, in order not to kill new corvettes and frigates with such “housework”, these “ugly ducklings” were created!
    hi
    1. 0
      22 September 2023 13: 16
      Quote: Serg65
      You and I have already found out, but the submariner, Romanian, captain of the 3rd rank, due to his youth, had not even heard about how warships of the 1st and 2nd ranks, exhausting their materiel, heroically protected fishing areas in the vast oceans, protected convoys with capitalist wheat heading to the richest and happiest country!

      EMNIP, all sorts of little things were placed for the direct protection of fishermen - heavy-duty ships and small ships. And the big guys from OPESK looked after the kids with one eye.
      1. +1
        22 September 2023 14: 27
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Every little thing was put on the direct protection of the fishermen

        TSCH did not go further than Alboran and the Persian Gulf, even if they were part of OPEC. Despite the fact that there were 18 Aquamarines in the KChF, there were no more than 8 pennants on the BS from Dahlak to Albaran... and 2 MTs were constantly in Tartus, and with the beginning of the Persian conflict they became sorely lacking! Las Palmas, Canacry, Sao Tome, Luanda and Antarctic waters were inaccessible to Aquamarines!
        1. 0
          22 September 2023 16: 31
          Quote: Serg65
          TSC did not go further than Alboran and the Persian Gulf

          "Scout", EMNIP, in 1991 guarded fishermen behind the Pillars of Hercules.
  18. +5
    22 September 2023 11: 23
    Project 22160 was created by the Northern Design Bureau from St. Petersburg, conceived as an ordinary patrol vessel, without “unparalleled” ones, without any power and record-breaking characteristics. In general, it’s an ordinary rank 3 patrol corvette.

    Seriously?
    Project 22160 was not created at all as a ship for the Navy, much less a mythical “patrol corvette.” 22160 was made for a completely different department, as is clearly evidenced by the list of its tasks, copied into the naval version:
    According to the demonstration materials of Zelenodolsky NW, presented at the Army-2016 and IMDS-2017, as well as data from the OSK website, the main tasks of PC 22160 are:
    - border patrol service for the protection of territorial waters;
    - patrolling the 200-mile special economic zone in neutral and territorial waters;
    - suppression of smuggling and piracy;
    - Search and assistance to victims of maritime disasters;
    - environmental monitoring of the environment;
    - in wartime:
    guarding ships and vessels at the transition by sea, protecting naval bases and water areas in order to warn of an attack by various enemy forces and equipment.

    Attention, question - ships of which department are required by law to carry out all peacetime tasks of 22160? wink

    22160 is an ordinary PSKR of a “new concept” - a specialized ship for military personnel (and not a remake of a naval ship), a minimum of weapons, a maximum of autonomy and comfort. Which Zelenodolsk was able to push into the Navy.
    1. 0
      22 September 2023 16: 27
      Well, there are a bunch of BCHR ships on the Black Sea. Why are they still unable to knock out a single enemy BEC, what do they lack for this?
      1. 0
        22 September 2023 18: 50
        Quote: keleg
        Well, there are a bunch of BCHR ships on the Black Sea. Why are they still unable to knock out a single enemy BEC, what do they lack for this?

        It is possible that they belong to a different department and perform different tasks.
  19. -2
    22 September 2023 11: 39
    Just yesterday, Roman’s colleague on the site Staver published an article about how lying in war is a crime. The actual adoption of this subject is a canonical example of, I’m not afraid to say, a crime
    1. +2
      22 September 2023 12: 19
      But without this “crime,” the Black Sea Fleet would now be unable to protect oil pipelines or defend merchant ships. There would simply be no one to do this, stupidly in terms of numbers - one frigate is worth as much as three patrol officers.
      1. +3
        22 September 2023 13: 14
        Quote: keleg
        But without this “crime,” the Black Sea Fleet would now be unable to protect oil pipelines or defend merchant ships.

        That is, either 22160 or nothing? belay
        And where do these conclusions come from? Especially if you remember that order 22160 was made instead OVR corvettes. So without 22160, the fleet would have PLO corvettes.
        1. 0
          22 September 2023 14: 31
          Quote: Alexey RA
          order 22160 was placed instead of OVR corvettes.

          Okay Alexey, then why did all 22160 of them gather at the Black Sea Fleet? Why didn’t you get to the BF, for example?
          1. +2
            22 September 2023 16: 34
            Quote: Serg65
            Okay Alexey, then why did all 22160 of them gather at the Black Sea Fleet? Why didn’t you get to the BF, for example?

            But because in other fleets the miracle built turned out to be no candle to hell, no poker to God ©.
            So they came up with the task of “fighting pirates off the coast of Africa” for him - and actively promoted it... until it became clear that they had better not go further than Tartus. And then they were left with only the security of the Syrian Express.
            In general, it was not the ship that was tailored to the tasks, but the tasks to the ship. Although at first there were a lot of plans for 22160 in the Navy, they seriously wanted to load it with OVR tasks. smile
            guarding ships and vessels at the transition by sea, protecting naval bases and water areas in order to warn of an attack by various enemy forces and equipment
        2. 0
          22 September 2023 16: 36
          And what kind of air defense would those “PLO corvettes” have?
          1. +3
            22 September 2023 19: 01
            Quote: keleg
            And what kind of air defense would those “PLO corvettes” have?

            In the Zelenodolsk variant (diesel-diesel iteration of their beloved 11661), all variants of the Gepard had ZRAK or ZRAK + AK-630M. So they would install Pantsir-M. Standard, not fastened with chains. wink
  20. +4
    22 September 2023 12: 01
    There is an Ariadne sonar, but there are no depth charges, no anti-submarine torpedoes, nothing that could be used to attack a submarine.

    And there is no GAS to detect it. For "Ariadne" is a short-range sonar for detecting PDSS.
    To work on submarines you need a "Minotaur".
    And on Project 22160 corvettes, you can additionally install 12,7-mm Cordas, which are quite suitable for working against such targets as uncrewed kamikaze boats.

    Or maybe you shouldn’t always rely on the Brain Mark 1 control system with Eyeballs Mark 1 detection tools? There are normal DUBMs - with EOS and heating.
    Or is it inappropriate for a Russian sailor to relax in the warmth at the control panel - it is imperative that he personally stands behind a machine gun on the upper deck - in rain and snow, in hot summers and piercing winters? wink
    But Project 22160 ships also have helicopters.

    One helicopter. And only Ka-27PS. Because at 22160 there is no ASP cellar and an ASP lift. And any attack or anti-submarine helicopter will be a one-mission machine.
    The only thing that can complicate the work of these ships is the complete defenselessness of the ships in terms of air defense. It simply doesn’t exist; several MANPADS are an opportunity to shoot down a drone, but not a modern aircraft that decides to attack a corvette.

    MANPADS are a hypothetical opportunity to shoot down a kamikaze UAV. A MANPADS protects against an attack UAV with UAB and guided missiles much like a pistol does against a sniper.
    1. 0
      22 September 2023 16: 37
      Despite the fact that the Ka-29 flew from 22160 for inspection, there is a video of the landing.
      And in the assault version.
      1. +1
        22 September 2023 19: 03
        Quote: keleg
        Despite the fact that the Ka-29 flew from 22160 for inspection, there is a video of the landing.
        And in the assault version.

        So that’s what I’m writing about - what’s loaded on the shore, that’s what we fly with. Reloading only in the base.
  21. +1
    22 September 2023 13: 07
    MANPADS are not such a bad option, with the help of radar they can detect a target on approach, and the same Verba seems to be able to shoot down cruise missiles. The ship is not particularly big enough to launch anti-ship missiles for its sake, and if they want to overwhelm it, then even the module with the Shell will not be of much help.
    1. +1
      22 September 2023 13: 10
      Quote: KosR
      MANPADS are not such a bad option, with the help of radar they can detect a target on approach, and the same Verba seems to be able to shoot down cruise missiles.

      And who will hit the patrolman with a cruise missile or a large anti-ship missile? Most likely, something “Bayraktar-like” will fly in, and an ATGM or UAB will drop from 7-8 kilometers away. Alas, we still have problems with detecting UAVs.
      1. +1
        22 September 2023 13: 17
        It won’t work with 7-8, the range of the AK-176MA is 15 km horizontally and 11 km altitude.
        If you need to go further, you can have time to fly a helicopter with V-V missiles to a slow target like the Bayraktor.
        1. +2
          22 September 2023 16: 37
          Quote: keleg
          It won’t work with 7-8, the range of the AK-176MA is 15 km horizontally and 11 km altitude.

          If the UAV is detected. Otherwise, we already have surveillance UAVs flying over the positions of air defense missile systems with impunity.
          Quote: keleg
          If you need to go further, you can have time to fly a helicopter with V-V missiles to a slow target like the Bayraktor.

          But he is not there. On 22160 - only PS. Because there is nowhere and nothing to store and transport the ASP to the place of suspension on the ship.
      2. -1
        23 September 2023 03: 31
        In general, they launched at Bykov and anti-ship missiles (this is not exact, but I’m sure they were launched not only at the tug), and he met with bayraktars, and according to Ukrainian propagandists, he sank 15 times, the last time a week ago.
  22. +2
    22 September 2023 14: 15
    Two nuances.
    The first is that Bykov has almost 2000 tons, not 1500. The closest analogue in terms of displacement for him is project 11661E, or the unbuilt 11664, or another Zelenodolsk project, which is not publicized in the open media, and I will designate it as 1166X
    The latter was powered by Kolomna diesel engines instead of turbines.
    Accordingly, in addition to Bykov’s weapon, another 8 calibers, two Broadswords, and even a hangar fit into the hull with the same displacement and better seaworthiness.
    Therefore, the argument about displacement is irrelevant, Roman.

    As for everything else, you don’t know the details of how “Kotov” fought off the Ukrainian fire ships, and at what cost, that’s why you write this, if you knew, you wouldn’t write. Maybe after the war this case will be declassified, compare this with how the same “Ivan Khurs” fought.

    These ships have no value; they are used simply because there is nothing else. That's all. And they did not show any effectiveness, alas.
    1. +1
      22 September 2023 16: 25
      Well, that is, if it weren’t for the patrolmen, there wouldn’t be ships in the entire fleet against the fireships?
      And at the same time “no value”?
      Strange logic, especially considering that ships 22160 have already destroyed 13 enemy BECs. More than all other projects combined.
      1. +1
        22 September 2023 19: 10
        Quote: keleg
        Well, that is, if it weren’t for the patrolmen, there wouldn’t be ships in the entire fleet against the fireships?

        If there were no orders for patrol officers, the Navy and Zelenodolsk would still have come to a mutually beneficial agreement (for the leadership smile ) agreement, and the plant would have put out an order for other ships - at least for the Albatross - the eleventh version. And they would destroy the fire ships.
        And Chirkov would be cursed for the construction of these MPKs, citing as an example posters and models of an innovative modular super-patrol vehicle, which in theory would cover the MPK like a bull protects a sheep. laughing
        Quote: keleg
        Strange logic, especially considering that ships 22160 have already destroyed 13 enemy BECs. More than all other projects combined.

        Quote: timokhin-aa
        they are used simply because there is nothing else to do.
      2. -1
        23 September 2023 03: 33
        So the other ships did not sleep and also did not receive a fireship, apparently the landmen decided to choose easier targets
      3. +2
        27 September 2023 14: 36
        If it weren’t for the patrols being taken away, something valuable could have been built instead.
        It’s really useless to explain this to stubborn people.
    2. 0
      22 September 2023 19: 06
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      or another Zelenodolsk project that is not covered in open media, and I will designate it as 1166X

      Didn't they immediately sell another fifth "Cheetah" - with import substitution of MTU to Kolomna? And they have had projects for a corvette with CODAD for a German power plant for a long time.
      1. +2
        27 September 2023 14: 37
        Like yes, just for some strange reason they didn’t show this project. 11664 was shown, but this one was not. And then the design bureau was completely suppressed, as if it was not needed. Maybe they would have overclocked it if it weren’t for 23900.
        In general, at a certain moment I began to think that we were going on with a conspiracy to prevent the building of sane anti-submarine forces.
  23. -2
    22 September 2023 15: 16
    Where are the deck-mounted machine gun mounts with drives, stabilization, barrel cooling and increased ammo capacity? All ranks responsible for the armament of the Navy should be demoted, stripped of their seniority, and sent to the front. Even the filthy cretins who in the 21st century put air defense systems with rotary launchers on ships .It’s clear whose ears are sticking out, the main innovator of all Rus'.
    1. +2
      22 September 2023 16: 06
      Quote: Foma Kinyaev
      Where are the deck-mounted machine gun mounts with drives, stabilization, barrel cooling and increased ammo capacity?

      Where there are marine diesel engines and new deck helicopters. They are waiting for the admirals to guarantee a SERIES. At least hundreds of pieces. Nobody will make 1-2 pieces under the personal foolishness of another gold-purchasing tyrant. This will simply ruin the developer and you will not find a manufacturer. In the 90s, many design bureaus tried to do something for the fleet. We adapted our developments. But, as it turned out, the fleet doesn’t need anything...
    2. 0
      22 September 2023 16: 38
      "Narwhal" is already in series, they promised to be on ships by the end of the year.
  24. -3
    22 September 2023 15: 17
    What surprises me in the history of our naval suffering is its kind of devilish, hopeless cyclicality. It’s as if we are walking in circles, over and over again trying to build a fleet and over and over again building some kind of misery, always being late and always in the end finding ourselves forced to “sink” ships in bays, remove “guns” from them, and enroll teams in the assault infantry and throw it to perform feats with rifles and machine guns.
    The current situation of the Black Sea Fleet is strangely reminiscent of Port Arthur. The fleet also turned out to be technically insolvent, and the flagship was also lost. Also, ships stand in bays, barely able to defend themselves and, at best, fire at ground targets with their “main caliber.” But a lot of naval “rattles” have been designed at exorbitant prices and are not mass-produced, since no one needs them.
    I understand that, for example, torpedoes and anti-ship missiles are the “main caliber” of our fleet, special radars and sonar are its eyes and ears. All this has its own specific characteristics. But why the hell in a country where excellent artillery systems have been created for the ground army, including modular ones, are fire ships being shot by sailors with machine guns, as if we were in 1905? Why aren’t artillery and missile modules from infantry fighting vehicles installed on ships? The same Bakhcha? Or a weapon module from the BMP-3? Or will someone now argue that a machine gun is better than a 30 mm cannon? Is the "Kastet" ATGM bad for shooting fire ships at a range close to the horizon? Why is there some kind of unique, never used 76-mm cannon on the bow of this ship, and not a standard combat one?
    1. +4
      22 September 2023 16: 40
      Look at the rate of fire of a 76 mm cannon, it is used as an air defense system with guidance from optics and radar. An ordinary landlubber cannot do this at all.
      1. +1
        28 September 2023 03: 20
        Quote: keleg
        Look at the rate of fire of a 76 mm cannon, it is used as an air defense system with guidance from optics and radar. An ordinary landlubber cannot do this at all.


        What can a 76-mm anti-aircraft gun shoot down now? The effectiveness of anti-aircraft artillery was not God knows even during WW2. Especially if there is only one gun for the entire ship. She won’t even put up barrage fire, especially when attacking from different azimuths. The plane is too tough for her. RCC too. Subsonic missile? Low probability. Helicopter? How will he end up in the affected area?
        Drone? Can’t a 30mm cannon cope with it? Its problem is not to hit, but to detect, to detect.
        And if this cannon is so good, then why do they shoot fire ships with machine guns? Are they demonstrating naval toughness? We landlubbers don’t understand? How many times in life does this gun even have a chance to be used on a target? I remember there was a video where our border guard stopped a Japanese poacher in the Far East. He threshed on its stern about 10 times without much result. The Japanese kept his course. What happens? This gun is weak against surface targets and ineffective against air targets, right? Or not?
        I ask again, if this cannon is so good, why do the sailors shoot fire ships with machine guns? Because the time it takes to get into combat position is half an hour? Or what?

        In my opinion, it’s time for our fleet to moderate its ambitions and take a sensible look at its wants. Many weapon systems on ships now look like outright eccentricities. Oh, sorry, a tribute to maritime tradition. Universal 76mm cannon on the nose? Like an anti-aircraft gun? What's the main caliber? Seriously? Wouldn't it be better to put several Gibka complexes on the ship? With packs of MANPADS. There will be protection on at least two sides at the same time. And from the stern too. Or can this cannon fire towards the stern? In the war of 888, ours sank Georgian boats with anti-aircraft missiles. Why? The anti-ship missile system is too large for such a purpose. Or maybe a barreled ATGM of a tank gun would be better than a missile defense system? Is 5-7 km of controlled flight not enough?
        Don't you get the feeling that the art system on the bow of this boat is a little ideotic by today's standards?

        And most importantly. Modern ships of our fleet are too expensive and too low-tech. They are produced too slowly and cost too much. This boat cost no less, but 100 million dollars. And it was recognized as not meeting the needs of the fleet. This is essentially money thrown into the sea. Aren't naval experiments and traditions a little expensive? Money is spent, ships are built, but for some reason the fleet is not strengthened. Maybe because too much attention is paid to naval rattles like “universal” guns? Wouldn't it be better to spend the money on reviving the domestic marine engine industry?
  25. 0
    22 September 2023 17: 36
    War at sea has changed and now something like a Hemingway fishing boat will be more useful for fighting inflatable boats and plastic fire ships.
  26. +1
    22 September 2023 21: 08
    I would like to draw your attention to the name of the type of this vessel: Patrol ship. A patrol ship must first of all be tailored for detection tasks. Did this ship cope with this main task? Yes. 5+. Because he not only discovered, but also hit all the targets. And the trend is that targets of this type will become a constant threat at sea. Therefore, the ship is quite suitable for its tasks and should continue to be produced. narrow range of weapons? This means it should be used as part of a formation, where its systems that detect the enemy will be supplemented by the firepower of ships that are designed to work on targets of other types.
    Modularity as an idea is also good, because... in theory, allows you to equip a ship for a specific type patrol officers tasks. The fact that the modules are not ready yet is a matter of time. What I agree with from criticism is that already in the 21st century it was possible to install modern autonomous combat modules, supplemented by ATGMs, instead of machine guns. As for the 76-mm gun, it’s just fire!) It showed only part of its capabilities, because... It can also work against air targets - the same drones.
    1. +1
      25 September 2023 12: 39
      Quote: Ivan Mak_2
      Modularity as an idea is also good, because... in theory, it allows you to equip the ship for a specific type of patrol mission. The fact that the modules are not ready yet is a matter of time.

      And when the modules are ready, it turns out that there is nowhere to put them. Because on the real 22160 there are only two places left in the stern for modules in the dimensions of containers - that’s all.
    2. +1
      28 September 2023 03: 32
      Quote: Ivan Mak_2
      5+. Because he not only discovered, but also hit all the targets.

      You understand that unmanned fire ships are just the beginning. The next step will be to install remotely controlled machine gun turrets on them. The Russians will show that they are hitting the fire ships while standing on the deck at full height, and the British will put a machine gun or, even simpler, a grenade launcher on the fire ship. One burst of grenades. But that’s enough for the “naked” machine gunner.
      Shooting must be carried out in semi-automatic mode, at least through an OLS with an IR channel and a ballistic computer. And people must be protected by armor.


      Quote: Ivan Mak_2
      Modularity as an idea is also good, because... in theory, it allows you to equip the ship for a specific type of patrol mission.


      Good. But not in the US form. The US people came up with outright nonsense. Because no one will ever store 5 modules for one ship somewhere and keep 5 crews for all occasions. And installing modules is time-consuming and expensive.
      Modules must be installed on ships during construction once and for all. The series will thus consist of a universal platform with cells into which the combat module will be mounted, creating a whole family of combat vehicles based on ONE project.
  27. -2
    22 September 2023 22: 15
    Quote: abc_alex
    Where there are marine diesel engines and new deck helicopters. They are waiting for the admirals to guarantee a SERIES.

    In modern conditions, a serious danger threatens from small unmanned vehicles, so machine gun installations with automatic drive and increased rate of fire are needed on every Navy ship, and you can take land modules as a basis by adding a cooling system to them - attaching a casing with antifreeze and a pump is a couple of trifles.
    1. +1
      28 September 2023 22: 07
      Quote: Foma Kinyaev
      Quote: abc_alex
      Where there are marine diesel engines and new deck helicopters. They are waiting for the admirals to guarantee a SERIES.

      In modern conditions, a serious danger threatens from small unmanned vehicles, so machine gun installations with automatic drive and increased rate of fire are needed on every Navy ship, and you can take land modules as a basis by adding a cooling system to them - attaching a casing with antifreeze and a pump is a couple of trifles.


      Does this mean abolishing naval snobbery? Admit that the brave sailor will shoot from the same weapons that were made for the vulgar landmen? What are you talking about? Did you get three minuses? I'm sure there are two midshipmen and someone with rank. Those who are firmly convinced that a mile is more convenient than a kilometer, a gangway is not the same as a gangplank, a cook and a cook are fundamentally different professions, and in a latrine people do fundamentally different things than in a toilet. :) :) :)
      I am also sure that land-based weapons systems are no worse, and often better, than sea-based ones. If only because they develop much faster and have more experience in use. But try to force the Moremans to admit this? To do this, you must first deprive them of all their ships and force them to “walk on dry land as if on the sea” in formation for 10 years. :)
  28. +1
    22 September 2023 23: 38
    Quote: Alexey RA
    What about the inspection of ships, for which 22160 were sent on patrol? DSHL? Or “Zodiacs” And how long will this acrobatics last, taking into account the fact that to use boats 22160 you need to approach the ship. I'm not even talking about the danger of getting into a "Sydney" - "Cormoran" situation.


    And if a helicopter with a landing party stumbles upon the Cormoran, how will 22160 help it? Would it be frowned upon to watch the radar? Or shoot from the maximum distance with 76mm? After all, he won’t even be able to catch up. At least he needs some missiles.
    1. -2
      25 September 2023 12: 59
      Quote from: dmiitriy
      And if a helicopter with a landing party stumbles upon the Cormoran, how will 22160 help it?

      The one that won't drown. The principle of lesser evil - it is better to sacrifice a helicopter than a warship.
      Quote from: dmiitriy
      Would it be frowned upon to watch the radar? Or shoot from the maximum distance with 76mm?

      He will report upstairs and wait for MA to arrive.
  29. 0
    23 September 2023 00: 19
    Well, isn’t it fate to put Ptitselov or Sosna air defense systems on the ship, plus add anti-aircraft machine guns on the sides? Yes, at least install the same ATGM Vikhr or Cornet. And there will be a decent combat unit for fighting drones
    1. 0
      25 September 2023 13: 05
      Quote from Alorg
      Well, isn’t it fate to put Ptitselov or Sosna air defense systems on the ship, plus add anti-aircraft machine guns on the sides?

      Sosna’s naval use somehow hasn’t worked out since the days of 11661 and 22350 - the ZRAKs on them lost their missile part and became ZAK.
  30. +2
    23 September 2023 01: 26
    The appearance of this “ugly duckling” - the corvette of Project 22160, is associated with the “madness” of the US naval command, in 2010 - 2012, on the modularity and versatility of warships... True, the “restoration” of the mental state regarding the versatility of naval platforms, among the Stars and Stripes, came quite quickly under the influence of natural American pragmatism, analysis of the idea, modeling and banal economic calculation of the costs of the proposed Wunder Waffen, but domestic “skulls” writing performance characteristics and technical specifications for promising ship projects, for The Russian Navy found itself “captive” of American illusions regarding any modularity and multi-vector nature of naval combat platforms, much longer, which explains the appearance of this corvette project... There is an opinion that this “American illusion” was simply “planted” in Russia, in in the form of a working concept of technology. rearmament of the US Navy, which was “grabbed” by very “advanced” domestic “skulls” in matters of defense... And the work “boiled”, although there was mature analysis and criticism with factual evidence, but who listened and heard it.... Was , a very decent budget was allocated for this “business”, heads were spinning from personal capabilities and plans regarding participation in this budget.... But to control the process of creating this corvette, from the design bureau to the last “aligned partner” in terms of armament and equipment, is not “ this is a royal business" for generals - admirals from shipbuilding, and with military-technical intelligence, something has not worked out lately... And, most importantly, victorious reports regarding the prospects of modularity and multifunctionality of ships of the future Navy have gone "up" ... In short, the budget was spent with great love and diligence, and "New Vasyuki" in "marble and bronze" was presented to the state and its taxpayers... Thank God that, by a strange coincidence, work was found for "New Vasyuki" Black Sea theater of operations... Although...
    1. 0
      23 September 2023 06: 28
      The USA has nothing to do with it at all. 22160 is similar primarily to European OPVs and was intended for SOF operations in Africa.
      Modules are a mobilization option, that’s why they were made “secondarily.”
      1. +1
        24 September 2023 14: 22
        Dear keleg! USA - very much, even, “and”... Read the primary sources from 2010 - 2012. Regarding the plans of the US shipbuilding program, about Europe, I won’t even “bother”...
      2. 0
        27 September 2023 14: 39
        It was not intended for this, no need to lie.
  31. +2
    23 September 2023 08: 30
    I like the author’s publications. The writing is unimaginable. He knows everything and has been everywhere (just like in the old joke about Vasily Ivanovich). And about space with aviation, and about ships with submarines, and about armored vehicles, and about UAVs with electronic warfare, and about operational work (including intelligence work) of “organs”, and about engineering troops (I just haven’t mentioned the railway ones yet), and about tactics and strategy, and about the history of geopolitics, and let alone talk “for real”, small arms, ammunition, local government and “how we can develop Russia” - don’t go to your grandmother - you won’t find a better specialist. What about the lyrics?! These are masterpieces of depth and volume, generously flavored with photos from the Internet! Where is “War and Peace” with 55 volumes by Ilyich (I wonder: how many volumes would Ilyich have sculpted if he had the Internet at his disposal, and what details would Tolstoy have told us about Austerlitz and Borodino?). And you can’t blame him for being a know-it-all and graphomaniac - which you can’t do for the sake of stable line-by-line payment. What about the tone? Mentors of the past will be jealous. And what about the article titles?! As soon as it hits you with all the recognizable proletarian directness, you want to read it right away, so that you can retell it to your grandchildren at night. True, there are some irresponsible opponents who strive to catch someone in a lie. For example, about the purchase of Finland by the Russian Empire at one time. Little do they know that a genius has no business studying a topic - he needs to write. Well, he took a quick look at Wikipedia’s article by another genius and what’s wrong? Envious people, however...
    1. +1
      23 September 2023 09: 42
      It is clear that project 22160 is not only not the most successful in our fleet, it is rather the most unsuccessful. And therefore, after the last two ships are accepted into the Black Sea Fleet, no more will be built, and this is an absolutely correct decision.

      In my opinion, this author’s categorical conclusion is not supported by sufficient argumentation and contradicts a specific successfully completed combat mission, so in this case I would like to see more balance in the assessments. It is clear that in our imperfect world you can find both pros and cons in any project. It seems that we would have seen much more capabilities of this vessel if the customers themselves had been more consistent and achieved the readiness of the initially intended modules, but here again the question is more about implementation than about the idea itself. In general, the material presented is quite interesting, for which I thank the author.
  32. 0
    27 November 2023 15: 03
    I regularly read all kinds of negativity towards project 22160. It is deserved.
    But why is everyone silent about other ships? Is everything okay there?
    For those who are not quite in the subject:
    6 ships 22160(1800 t full) - 1 × 76,2 mm AU AK-176MA, 2 × 14,5 mm MTPU-1 “Sting” + MANPADS 8 missiles
    12! ships 22120 (1155—1276 t (full)) - 2 × 12,7 mm detachable machine gun mounts 6P59 + AK-306M + MANPADS
    14! Ships 22460 (750 t (full)) - AU AK-630; + MANPADS 8 missiles
    5 Ships 22100 (3200t) - 1 piece 76,2 mm AK-176M, 2 pieces - 14,5 mm MTPU,
    Almost 40! Ships according to plan with minimal weapons.
    1. +1
      3 December 2023 19: 50
      All these patrol ships were not prevented by a Bridgestone-class missile.
  33. -1
    17 December 2023 23: 02
    Well, what can I say. The F16s have not yet appeared at the front.
    So, we’re basically finished.
    The UA fleet inflicted such losses on us that mother, don’t worry. Moreover, without having your own ships!
    Or is the public not aware?
    Again, articles about everything and nothing...
  34. 0
    25 December 2023 15: 54
    Don't tell my slippers. The corvette shoots boats floating on the surface of the sea, which means it is very successful! It’s a pity I didn’t take a photo in Sevastopol, seeing how this shit with a land shell was standing on the helicopter deck in the roadstead. They probably would have put a tank on his nose to arm him somehow, but there’s not enough space there.