A swan song of sparrow calibers?

138
A swan song of sparrow calibers?

Let's just sum it up. During the CBO, a new concept of combat was born, for which, almost immediately, they began to invent means of both “pro” and “contra”. The massive use of small (compared to an aircraft) UAVs calls into question the effectiveness of the use of anti-aircraft missiles. Precisely because the rate of fire of air defense systems is a very conditional thing.

In addition, the small size of UAVs makes it not only impossible, but rather inexpedient, the use of such complexes as the S-300/400 on them. And this, again, is not to mention the number of UAVs that any side can launch at targets on the territory of the other. Suffice it to recall the waves of "Shaheds" that flew into Ukrainian cities, and it becomes clear that not every air defense system will be able to withstand them.



And in such a situation, MZA appears on the scene, small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery, which becomes a full-fledged player.

Moreover, suddenly aviation began to suffer damage from this type of air defense. Both ours and Ukrainian, because the planes driven by anti-aircraft missiles to low altitudes became the objects of the closest attention of the MZA.

Planes, helicopters, missiles (subsonic), UAVs - unlike the smartest SAM missile, the projectile is stupid and it doesn't care who it hits. No reverence, but very effective at times. So the real role of the MZA in the events in Ukraine is a story that has yet to be written.

But quite recently (according to historical standards) anti-aircraft artillery was practically sentenced to resignation ...

It happened in the 50-60s of the last century, when the planes began to fly very fast and very high. And it became clear that even the most powerful anti-aircraft guns 130-mm KS-30 and 100-mm KS-19 for us, 90-mm M2 and 120-mm M1 for the Americans simply cannot have the proper effect on aircraft. Lacked neither accuracy nor rate of fire.


Anti-aircraft gun KS-30

And anti-aircraft guns everywhere began to be replaced by anti-aircraft missile systems.


True, the first swallow flew in from Vietnam. The following happened there: anti-aircraft missiles (naturally, Soviet S-75s) launched American Phantoms from high altitudes, but small aircraft came under attack from small-caliber artillery. Yes, that the Soviet systems, that their Chinese copies did not differ in range and altitude, but they had a rate of fire and a large number of trunks. Note - cheap. And these cheap chirps shot down no less Phantoms than formidable rockets.

However - what's the difference if the result is important?

The masterpiece of Soviet engineering ZSU-23-4 "Shilka", on the contrary, in the 1973 war with a steel broom swept Israeli aircraft out of the range of the ZSU, to medium heights where it was possible to work with missiles. Small heights firmly remained behind the "Shilki".


It is clear that it is difficult to shoot down a high-speed Shilke aircraft, but it is possible. According to some sources, in 1973, Egyptian and Syrian anti-aircraft gunners shot down from 30 to 40 Israeli Air Force aircraft with Shilka. Perhaps, presumably - now it makes no sense to count again.

But even if "Shilki" were just a psychological weapons, which displaced Israeli aircraft higher, under the impact of missiles, it also worked out quite well for itself. There is one nuance here - the imperfection of rescue systems. Yes, a rocket hitting an engine at an altitude of 3-5 km is unpleasant, but you can save yourself. But when a shower of shells hits an aircraft at an altitude of about a kilometer and below, it’s more difficult.

Here, the benefits of the MZA became clear: the cheapness of ammunition, the practical absence of "dead zones", mobility, and as a bonus (very useful, the Afghan Mujahideen will not let you lie) - the possibility of using it on ground targets.


Moreover, the Shilka and its simplified version of the ZU-23-2 are still relevant: the firing range is 2,5 km and 1,5 km in height with a rate of fire of 4 rounds per minute (000 for the ZU-2-000 ) make the system quite suitable for use in modern conditions. Here's how it is: not a masterpiece, but no one disputes combat effectiveness. Therefore, "Shilka" and "Zushki" in Ukraine are used on both sides of the front.

Yes, in the USSR they knew how to create masterpieces ...

What about these?

These were harder and easier at the same time. In the United States, they relied on aircraft and air defense systems (in that order), the only artillery air defense system was initially the six-barreled 20-mm Vulkan aircraft, which was made in the towed version of the M167, self-propelled on the M113 chassis (ZSU M163) and prescribed on ships.


No, the Vulkan is good, its rate of fire up to 6 rounds per minute and range up to three kilometers makes it a very unpleasant close combat system. And in 000, the Israelis, with the help of the Vulcan, shot down something Syrian. But there are also a lot of shortcomings.

But in general, almost the whole world sits on the products of the Swiss company Oerlikon.


Someone buys ready-made, someone creates his own on the basis of Oerlikon. The 20-mm family of guns began with the HS model, which later received the name GAI-CO, the Germans made their Rh-202 based on it, the Norwegians FK20-2 and so on. All these are guns, the firing distance of which is from 1 to 3 km.

The 35mm GDF family is more interesting because it allows you to hit targets at a distance of up to 4 km.


And in battle, the GDF proved to be quite good, it was from these installations that the Argentine anti-aircraft gunners sentenced two British Harriers in the battle for the Falklands. GDF-002 became the platform for the German Gepard, the Japanese Type 87, the Chinese Type 90, and the Turkish Korkut.

The six-barrel version of the Swiss 35-mm gun is used in the German air defense systems Skyshield and MANTIS.


These systems are compatible with each other, are stationary and, accordingly, are used for the defense of stationary objects (for example, airfields).

Bofors (Sweden). Also trendsetters in 40 mm caliber.


From the super autocannon L/60, which fought half the world in World War II, to its descendant L/70, firing 12 km at a speed of 240 rounds per minute. Also a very popular system in the world.

However, it is worth noting that, in general, the MZA is starting to move to the 30-mm caliber.

The Czechs (also quite successful as gunsmiths) created the M53/59 Praha ZSU, a twin 30 mm cannon with a firing range of 3 km and a rate of fire of 200 rounds per minute with both barrels.


The product is extremely outdated, but nevertheless, it is still in service in a number of armies in Europe and the Middle East.

Greece "only for itself" created a 30-mm coaxial gun "Artemis-30". Firing range up to 8 km, rate of fire 800 rounds per minute.

France could afford to have two systems: a 30-mm ZSU AMX-30DCA, a twin 30-mm cannon on the chassis tank AMX-30 and 20-mm anti-aircraft gun 53T2 "Tarask" with a range of up to 6 km and a rate of fire of over 700 rounds per minute.


In general, almost all countries of the world have small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery in service with their armies. The only question is how they see its application. Today in Ukraine gives answers to many questions.

Every day there are more and more goals for MZA.

But there is also a product of modernity, a hybrid of ZSU and air defense systems - ZRPK. The anti-aircraft missile and gun system is already a product of the 21st century, although the first unit appeared in the last century. And it was again the Soviet Tunguska complex.


A combination of small but fast short-range missiles and fast-firing automatic cannons, on which two radars operated, the first detected targets, the second accompanied and illuminated those detected.

The Tunguska turned out to be a masterpiece and soon became a favorite of the tankers, as it could cover the columns on the march with very decent efficiency. 30-mm guns had a rate of fire of up to 5 rounds per minute with both barrels at a distance of up to 000 km, missiles flew at a distance of up to 3 km and at a height of up to 8 km.

The next stage of development on wheels was the Pantsir, which also carries two radars and two 30-mm machine guns, but there are more missiles (12 pieces) and they fly further (up to 20 km, up to 15 km in height).


In the rest of the world, ZRPK somehow did not work out.

China has its own. ZRPK Toure 95, the artillery part of which was copied from the Italian ZSU SIDAM-25, and the radar and missiles were their own.


In Poland, they depicted something that they called ZUR-23-2S. This is generally a semi-self-propelled gun, two Strela-2M MANPADS were screwed onto the ZU-23-2. And there was also its “modernization”, when already in the 21st century under the name ZUR-23-2KG. It was instead of the Strela that they used the "domestic" MANPADS "Thunder". But if you consider that "Thunder" is a copy from the "Needle", then it is difficult to call this creation Polish.

There is also a Serbian prototype MANPADS. Called PASARS-16 "Terminator".


On the chassis of an armored truck, the same Bofors L / 70 gun, an optical guidance system and two missiles are installed - French Mistral MANPADS, Russian Igla MANPADS or Serbian RLN-1С, created on the basis of Soviet air-to-air missiles » R-13. But this is a prototype, and whether it will go into production is still unknown.

That is, by and large, few can afford the luxury in the form of air defense systems. Meanwhile, the ongoing air war over Ukraine and Russia shows that drones, drones-kamikaze, inferior to cruise and tactical missiles in terms of charge power and range, have an advantage in stealth, penetrating where the missiles really do not reach.

And such UAVs in the very near future will be put into service in all countries capable of producing them. And those who are not able to establish production will buy. In the same Iran.

Yes, the HIMARS tactical complex and our Iskander have shown how effective hitting a target can be. But the Lancets, which destroy the equipment of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, show how this can be done not only effectively militarily, but also financially.

Shooting a Hymars at a separate tank is frankly stupid. Launch "Iskander" on the BMP - too. But the cheap and simple "Lancet" copes with this just fine. And its cost, which is important, is tens, if not hundreds of times less than that of the target it hits. And missiles capable of bringing him down.

War is not just about money. This is huge money.

And the swan song of small calibers, quite possibly, not only will not sound, we may still hear hymns in praise of small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery, which will become a shield against flocks of unmanned killers.

And here, of course, I would very much like to think that our design bureaus are working hard and fruitfully to create artillery systems capable of fighting drones. For example, with those who visit Moscow City every night.

Recently, we hosted another exhibition of achievements of the military industry "Army-2023". Where, if not there, is it possible and necessary to look for everything new? Breakthrough solutions of tomorrow, latest innovations, everything else?

Here is the latest experienced armored car "Spartak", armed with a 57-mm automatic gun SAZP-57.


Okay, we see the armored three-axle truck. Possibly a good armored truck. But it is not he who attracts the eye, but what is in his back. And in the back of it, excuse me, it has a historical value: the 57-mm S-60 cannon, which was put into service in 1950. That is, in principle, not such an old model, only about 70 years old. But she also fought in Korea, shot down American planes.

Apparently, they made more than enough S-60s in their time, and not all of them were sold to the developed armies of countries like Bangladesh, Congo, Zaire and Angola. The gun is a masterpiece, yes, even now, if it hits, it will cut off the tail of any helicopter with its projectile, and the engine will choke on such a gift.

And the range is quite - up to 6 meters, and the projectile throws at a height of 000, but the question is: what to aim with? According to the radar? Funny. The guidance set for the S-5 was at the level of the 000s, and it remained the same. At best, according to the RPK-60 radio instrument complex, if one is found in storage warehouses. Well, the rate of fire of 50 rounds per minute is so-so.

S-60 is a good gun, Grabin did not do bad ones. And appreciated in the world, where she was just not clouded. ISIS fighters installed S-60s on trucks. The Syrian army did the same.


The Armed Forces of Ukraine built several dozen MT-LBs with S-60s on the armor. But on the "Motolab" what they just didn’t stick to, it’s generally a unique conveyor. And the Armenians installed S-60 on MT-LB.


The gun, I repeat, is very, very good, even after 70 years. What is its main problem is the lack of modern ammunition and a normal rate of fire. For a modern anti-aircraft autocannon, this is critical.

Regarding projectiles. There is no doubt that the S-60s will fire shells removed from storage. It’s just that there’s nowhere to come from with new ones, we haven’t had a 57-mm caliber in service for a long time.

In 2017, there was information that the Protsenko Start Production Association (ZATO Zarechny, Penza Region) from the state corporation Rosatom was mastering the production of 57-mm shells for the Russian anti-aircraft artillery complex Derivation. The shells will be produced with a remote programmable and contact fuse. But there is no data on how "the process has gone" and whether these shells can be used in the S-60.

It is clear that the S-60 is extremely outdated precisely in terms of shells and guidance. And you can create homemade products, and you can shoot from them with direct fire, and the effect of this will be, but shoot down Drones – this is unlikely.

Another "novelty". From the Tulamashzavod Production Association, a very respected association in the arms world.
It is called ZU-23AE.


Many media excitedly told what a powerful means of struggle it turned out to be, despite, again, 70 years of age. With whom, however, it should fight, for some reason no one specified.

According to the manufacturer, three ZU-23AE can be placed at a distance of 100 meters from each other, and one operator can control all three ZU-XNUMXAE at the same time. That is, two installations will shoot where the operator with the leading memory points.

The operator is very richly equipped: he has a target tracking machine and a completely modern guidance unit. Optical, with television cameras, a thermal imager and a laser rangefinder. Well luxurious, right?

But attention! The rate of fire has been reduced from 2000 to 500 rounds per minute! As it was written in one media outlet - "In order to save shells." And two new fire modes have been introduced: single and two shots.

Saving new expensive shells - that is, elementary ones with a programmable detonation time - is something.

It turned out as always - we write with one hand, and cross out with the other. They gave the operator six barrels spaced 200 meters apart, gave modern sights and cut the rate of fire, one of the most important characteristics. Six barrels that can fire 1500 shots versus two that can fire 2. So what does that look like?

Yes, it looks great. Fools Americans twist blocks of six barrels in order to squeeze out the maximum rate of fire, and in Russia they will click single. Shells, you know, cost money ...

In general, it turns out a very strange alignment.

In the world, where they understand that new times have come, they are stirring and starting to do something in terms of defense against UAVs. But to do something is to develop something new, isn't it?

To call a rattletrap with a 70/60-year-old cannon / cannons a new development is not new. It's a well-painted old one. And why it is necessary to pass off guns as new developments, which the hands of Vasily Gavrilovich Grabin still remember on their trunks, I personally don’t know.

Well, remote-controlled “Zushki” clicking single or cutting off two shells at a time is just a masterpiece.

Yes, the ZU-23-2 is a weapon that has become history. So beautifully made that hundreds of carts from a Toyota pickup truck to a truck with a Soviet double-barreled shotgun in the back are still rushing across the expanses of the Middle East and Persia.


"Zushka" in the back is, one might say, already a classic. Despite the fact that it was adopted in 1960. Ten years after our other novelty, S-60.

There is also a ZU-23-2 in the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Naturally, in Ukraine, many installations were stored in warehouses. And in 2017, the Ukrainians were able to start producing both barrels and ammunition for them. And now they use it with might and main. But Ukrainians, by and large, have nowhere to go.

Do we need such "news"?

Well, the barrels for the ZU-23-2 are definitely being produced, there are no problems with this. As for the trunks for the S-60, I’m not sure, Krasmash, which produced the ZU-57-2, will now take on slightly different tasks. Although of a defensive nature, but as part of Roskosmos.

It is difficult to understand the value of these homemade products based on seventy-year-old guns. Maybe we just need to empty the warehouses, maybe it’s hard to say what other considerations, besides the cheapness of these “knee-knee crafts”.

But in general, the casket opens very simply.

We don't need these homemade ISIS militants and Mujahideen. It has already become clear and understandable that an UAV that can dive from the sky and destroy a tank is a given that cannot be dismissed. More precisely, you can brush it off, but it is with the help of a rapid-fire barrel.

A number of crafts can be launched into a series. Well, at least in order to unload the industry and shoot stocks of 23-mm shells.

But in our country there are thousands of modern barrels of modern 30-mm caliber with modern ammunition. Single barrel, double barrel, six barrel. To which there are modern control systems with radars that can detect the UAV and point the trunks at it. And for which - it is important - there are shells with programmable fuses. Such fuses are installed using an inductive ring when the projectile leaves the muzzle.

This is what can really protect both personnel, equipment, and objects from UAVs. Modern weapons, not homemade junk. That's what we should strive for, not the emptying of warehouses with old equipment.

Although, of course, if the emptying of warehouses and the mass production of homemade products from old guns will make it possible to increase the production of modern 30-mm guns for PDO (anti-drone defense) - I agree that this is quite possible as a temporary move.
The only concern is that we have nothing more permanent than temporary. And for a long time to meet enemy drones will be the same S-60, ZU-23-2 and people with binoculars.

But I repeat - we have room to move in this direction.
138 comments
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  1. 0
    30 August 2023 05: 35
    Thanks for the article, but is the radar of such systems (mza) capable of detecting / tracking small-sized UAVs ??? I didn’t see any shots using Shilka on the outskirts ...
    1. +20
      30 August 2023 06: 15
      70/60 year old guns are nothing new. It's a well-painted old one.
      The main thing is that it works! Low bow to Grabin!
      1. +3
        30 August 2023 20: 51
        Quote from Uncle Lee
        Low bow to Grabin!

        I agree, why not bow to Gyazev and Shipunov. They also have a worthy legacy, but there is no one to implement them in terms of ammunition and means of mobility: GSh - 23 - 6, for example.
        If Greece was able to go far:
        Greece "only for itself" created a 30-mm coaxial gun "Artemis-30". Firing range up to 8 km, rate of fire 800 rounds per minute.
        , then we could also strain ourselves?
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. +38
      30 August 2023 06: 49
      Quote: Vladimir80
      Thank you for the article

      Interesting, but for what exactly are you grateful to the author? After so many mistakes and "pulling an owl on the globe" I have an extremely negative impression. negative
      Quote: Vladimir80
      The radar of such systems (mza) is capable of detecting / tracking small-sized UAVs ???

      With great difficulty, and much depends on the specific type of apparatus (its EPR) and flight altitude. For the detection of compact drones, passive OLS with a thermal imaging channel are more suitable.
      Quote: Vladimir80
      I didn’t see any shots using Shilka on the outskirts ...

      The radar-instrument complex of the RPK-2 gun guidance of the non-modernized "Shilka" built on electrovacuum devices is the Stone Age. Very few machines brought to the level of ZSU-23-4M4 "Shilka-M4" were made, and besides, the RF Ministry of Defense was not satisfied with the price-quality ratio of the upgraded ZSU. Nevertheless, at the initial stage, the Shilki SVO were used by us, however, for the most part, not for their intended purpose, but for fire support of ground units.
      I hope that the current madness will someday stop, and I will have the opportunity to review the combat use of the Russian military air defense.
      1. +12
        30 August 2023 08: 02
        So I can understand the reverent delight of various laymen, what’s on TV and in the press
      2. +13
        30 August 2023 09: 01
        and I will have the opportunity to review the combat use of the Russian military air defense.
        I've been waiting for a long time. It is always interesting to know the opinion of a competent author on this issue.
      3. +4
        30 August 2023 11: 08
        Quote: Bongo
        I hope the current madness will end someday.

        )))
        We are waiting for the next edition of Chinese maps.

        As for air defense, the air defense system, it seems, has not given anything new, at most it has changed the emphasis in the development of SHORAD. Lasers, modules with machine guns, with 40mm grenade launchers with programmable detonation, with light guns again with programmable detonation, simplified air defense systems, laser-corrected missile systems, conventional MANPADS on vehicles. This is appearing among the Ukrainians, but rather slowly; in the Russian Federation nothing new is visible.

        Another thing is that Ukrainian history became a test for the best Soviet air defense in the world, on both sides. This could be interesting, but it’s unlikely that anyone really wants to know.
      4. +4
        30 August 2023 16: 22
        hi
        Interesting, but for what exactly are you grateful to the author? After so many mistakes and "pulling the owl on the globe" I have an extremely negative impression

        Well... for example, the “six-barreled Mantis” cannot but rejoice laughing , and the idea that "almost the whole world sits on the products of the Swiss company Oerlikon" cannot but amaze! laughing And further in the text.
        So much fun and surprise in one post.. wink

        And what should readers do when for more than a year some authors have not been "incited" to write an article about comparing the counter-RAM of the German approach with 35 mm AHEAD in Mantis and the American one with 20 mm Centurion? request

        By SABJ.
        Most recently, Gr. Marchenko / Mokrenko gave a passage about a dead end of 23 mm, even with AHEAD and reasonableness of AHEAD with 30 mm. In this article - a brief retelling with additional. thoughts about the imperfection of MZA, Grabin, etc.
        The conclusion about 30 * 165 mm AHEAD as a reasonable option, by the way, is not obvious, based on the need for the "detect, aim and hit" complex. And can we mass-produce such a complex in 30 mm?
        So, probably, for the time being, the more reasonable option is "like the Centurion S-RAM, and cheap missiles", IMHO, albeit in 23 mm caliber.
      5. -3
        31 August 2023 17: 40
        ever stop,

        Well,! Don’t insert an extra b, it certainly won’t be any worse if you haven’t strengthened the spelling for -tsya, -tsya. zzo ride
        1. -1
          2 September 2023 02: 15
          if you have improved the spelling for -tsya, -tsya. zzo ride
          ********
          And this guy forbids me to mess with us.

          And in general, in wartime the value of “pi” reaches four, and all sorts of consumables in the form of commas and other nonsense are not taken into account.
    3. +10
      30 August 2023 08: 00
      On YouTube there is a very interesting breakdown of the situation with weapons called “Top failed modern Russian weapons” - a very interesting analysis. When one thing is talked about, the situation does not seem serious, but when you begin to look at the whole situation as a whole, the hair on your head begins to move from the “achievements”...
      1. -2
        30 August 2023 11: 09
        What's wrong with that? Only a real war can reliably confirm this or that concept. Something turned out to be ineffective, something on the contrary "shot". Much more important here is the speed of reaction to identified shortcomings, and here, I would say, everything is quite good. Some shahid mopeds and lancets are worth something. There are already thousands of CR of different types! launched. And ours are not lagging behind in other drones, but there was so much whining about this.
        1. aba
          +1
          1 September 2023 15: 06
          Much more important here is the speed of reaction to the identified shortcomings, and here, I would say, everything is quite good.
          Oh is it!? I read that there are more than a hundred bald tanks without remote sensing in the NVO zone, and so one activist collects money, places orders and sends it to the database area. Although, as I understand it, this is the concern of the state, which has both factories and research institutes that live on this.
          So the state itself does not itch, especially since the millionaire generals assure everyone that the army has everything! Just like in Greece.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. 0
        3 September 2023 00: 12
        "Top failed modern Russian weapons"

        I just watched both episodes today and...
        hair starts to move
        not only on the head but in all causal places.
    4. -2
      30 August 2023 12: 05
      Well, firstly, we tested the ZSU37-2 back in Soviet times, although it did not go into production. And the ZSU 57-2 was also adopted for service, which showed its best side in Syria.
      1. The comment was deleted.
  2. +31
    30 August 2023 05: 47
    Soon there will come a moment of understanding that against most drones, the most effective means will be rapid-fire twins / quads of 5,6-5,45 caliber with bullets that fragment in flight. Ducks are not shot with bullets, ducks are shot with shot. By the way, 20 mm canister shotgun shells can also be very effective, especially if you alternate the supply of cartridges with different container opening distances.
    1. +13
      30 August 2023 08: 46
      Good old shrapnel. Yes
      Comment text is too short. Yes.
      1. +6
        30 August 2023 15: 37
        good old shrapnel

        Shrapnel is good against infantry - all shrapnel, even flying to the zenith, will still fall to the ground - if they don’t even hurt, they will scare. In the air, we will get a sphere of damaging elements, the effectiveness of which, when scattered over several meters, will tend to zero - pure mathematics. But the damaging elements flying in one direction have a chance, so there is shot and fragmenting bullets. It is true that the Finns have shells from arrows - 30 mm and each of about one and a half thousand needles with stabilizers - create an effective cone of destruction in a section about 50 meters long - they were used on Coast Guard boats, but nothing has been heard about this ammunition lately. And the duralumin boat really turned into a colander

        Here, by the way, is a ready-made solution for 12 gauge - from a good pump-action gun, you can fill up ANY drone with such a thing, only a Yakut hunter is needed.
        1. +2
          30 August 2023 21: 00
          Quote: Leader_Barmaleev
          It is true that the Finns have shells from arrows - 30 mm and each of about one and a half thousand needles with stabilizers - create an effective cone of destruction in a section about 50 meters long - they were used on Coast Guard boats, but nothing has been heard about this ammunition lately.

          This destructive element is called a “flachette”, we should have one of these for a caliber of 152 mm somewhere in our warehouses, we even have some from aviation ammunition. A terrible thing, probably prohibited by International Conventions.
          1. +2
            31 August 2023 10: 31
            Not prohibited. Also available in caliber 122. Obsolete with the introduction of armor. It is ineffective against dug-in infantry, ridiculous against technology. Against cavalry - that was the most :) Against drones - perhaps you need to try.
          2. 0
            25 November 2023 19: 58
            Already used in SVO. They showed a fighter with one flechette stuck in his helmet.
        2. The comment was deleted.
    2. +5
      30 August 2023 09: 59
      Quote: Leader_Barmaleev
      rapid-fire sparks / quads in caliber 5,6-5,45 with fragmented bullets in flight

      Pure projecting. We cannot even mass-produce shells with a remote fuse for MZA, what kind of bullets are there. The reason is banal - the actual absence of the microelectronic industry. Yes, even in the West, experimental guided bullets are exclusively large-caliber, conceptually designed for piece sniper shooting, and even in the wildest fantasies no one plans to shoot them in bursts, because, firstly, it will be insanely expensive, and secondly, it simply contradicts common sense. Why fence a garden with a small caliber, firing millions of expensive nano-filled bullets, when you can stupidly make everything much easier and cheaper, for example, a small MANPADS grenade launcher for effective distances of a couple of hundred meters maximum (it’s simply unrealistic to notice a drone further), with a relatively simple control unit ala laser trail, and with a penny remotely activated shrapnel warhead. Here, technologically, there are no problems for us today, in such dimensions everything has already been mastered since Soviet times.
      1. +4
        30 August 2023 14: 18

        Everything new is well forgotten old. These bullets are a hundred years old at lunchtime and they were abandoned at one time, since there were no suitable targets. Now they have.
        1. 0
          30 August 2023 21: 32
          Quote: Leader_Barmaleev
          These bullets are a hundred years old and were abandoned at one time because there were no suitable targets. Now they have.

          Not our method, obviously (we have good means of our own), and not even Australian, although Australian is also not ours:

          Our naval forces are quite satisfied with the system based on the GSh - 30 - 6 (EMNIP).
      2. +1
        31 August 2023 01: 09
        Passing
        Your MANPADS grenade launcher is thousands of times more expensive than a machine gun with bullets. Taking into account the fact that copters can see in good weather for several kilometers, and rise to a kilometer, or even higher, the effect of this missile will be zero. I'm for bullets! Only in a pair with millimeter-wave radar
        1. +1
          31 August 2023 09: 35
          Quote: futurohunter
          Your MANPADS grenade launcher is thousands of times more expensive than a machine gun with bullets.

          According to my estimates, three to four times more expensive than just a machine gun. And a machine gun + mini radar is a hundred times cheaper. And incomparably more efficient. About this at the very end.
          Specifically, in numbers, my conceptual vision and business case:
          1) A grenade launcher ala Aglen or Fly on the market costs less than a thousand dollars, and the cost of production is naturally several times lower, i.e. at the same capacities we produce a new grenade launcher, with communication and control units attached to the shrapnel grenade. Let a new grenade launcher (without a shoulder-mounted machine with a guidance system) cost 2000 thousand dollars. Why such a low price, because the Cornet costs about a hundred thousand, and the rocket costs twenty thousand bucks? See item 2.
          2) After thinking, I sent the laser trail nafig (along with the exorbitant appetites of the KBP). Stupidly we assemble the entire control system (including rudder control and remote detonation) on the components of the FPV drone (in theory, resistance to electronic warfare is not required). A combat FPV drone costs from $500 on the market, a thermal imager with an integrated rangefinder costs from $500, plus another $500 for a computer board and software.
          In total, with doubling production costs and kickbacks, this system will cost the consumer ten thousand dollars, including the cost of a shot of four to five thousand bucks. And this is according to the most pessimistic estimates, in theory, the price of a shot may well be comparable to a drone, because there is no video, but there is a reactive system, plus or minus.
          Quote: futurohunter
          Taking into account the fact that copters can see in good weather for several kilometers, and rise to a kilometer, or even higher, the effect of this missile will be zero.

          1) Near-zero will be just your completely meaningless machine gun. Firstly, the bullet will stupidly not reach such a height, and secondly, the effective firing range from it will be much less than 300-400 meters. For the bullet will fly up to such a distance of a third of a second, during which time the drone will move ten to twenty meters. Where are you going to go there? But these are all trifles, what about the recoil of the machine gun? Holding it on the weight, you will hit it exclusively randomly, even at point-blank range. And no radar and thermal imagers will fix the situation. Newton's law and biology cannot be overcome by electronics.
          Another thing is the MANPADS grenade launcher: here the automatic guidance of a shrapnel grenade with a shoulder-mounted detonation (not HE, because the laser fuse, wangyu, will cost exorbitantly), i.e. we easily and naturally hold the sight on the target, all corrections are solved by the computer. No return.
          The main point of the whole idea is not to shoot down everything that flies, up to and including the stratosphere, and a specialized solution to the key problem of NWO (on both sides) is to repel the attack of micro drones (I include lancet-like ones in them). So that they, in principle, could not use free-falling mini-munitions, and attack in kamikaze mode. Let them drop as much as they want from a height of a kilometer, they will not get anywhere. By doing this, we will force the strike drones to sharply grow fat, and go to a height of the same kilometer or higher, because they will be forced to use remote-controlled weapons, which will automatically increase the weight / dimensions / price of the drone by an order of magnitude. Those. we get exactly the same Bayraktar, which in the current realities shows cologne effectiveness. For the traditional MANPADS / Shell / Buk will already calmly cope with this fat goose.
        2. The comment was deleted.
  3. +12
    30 August 2023 05: 56
    A swan song of sparrow calibers?
    Periodically, now about one type of weapon, then about another, they say like EVERYTHING !!! And then suddenly it turns out that without him in any way ...
    1. +3
      30 August 2023 10: 19
      they also said so about tanks))) that EVERYTHING))
  4. +11
    30 August 2023 06: 23
    Yes, it looks great. Fools Americans twist blocks of six barrels in order to squeeze out the maximum rate of fire, and in Russia they will click single. Shells, you know, cost money ...

    - We defended our rabbi: did he smartly sell shells to us?
    For the huge mass of effective managers who now rule the show in all industries, the most important word is CHEAPER! After all, this means the opportunity to put more in your pocket! Only now there are no more women that still give birth ...
  5. Eug
    +5
    30 August 2023 06: 27
    Something I didn’t understand the situation with the ZU-23-2 - I remember that on the GSh-23-2 aircraft gun there was a cut-off, if I’m not mistaken, 5 shots per barrel. As we were explained, further still miss and senseless expenditure of shells. Is repeating such a cut-off a problem?
  6. +8
    30 August 2023 06: 36
    The problem with 23-mm or 30-mm shells is that OUR technological base cannot put a remote programmable detonation or a proximity fuse into them. 57mm is expensive and has limited rate of fire and ammo. But when the Shilka was put into service, it had a competitor in the form of the Yenisei with two 37-mm guns. Does it make sense then to turn to this project?
    Yes, I read somewhere that the AZP-57 and the Derivation cannon fire mutually incompatible projectiles.
  7. +7
    30 August 2023 07: 04
    Maybe it's time for us to restore the ZSU-57-2? The 57-mm cannon will work even on the BMP, even on the observation devices of the tanks. laughing
  8. +9
    30 August 2023 07: 10
    Something about Derivation-Air Defense has not been heard for a long time. Did they even make shells?
    1. -1
      30 August 2023 09: 50
      It is not heard, because no one needs it. It cannot bring down the carrier before the means of destruction, and cannot work on the latter. ALL. Plus, since for all the years it has been advertised so far, they have not been able to make a projectile with a programmable detonation, respectively, this degeneration of design thought cannot shoot down drones either.
    2. +7
      30 August 2023 10: 17
      The shells have been done for a long time, what to do there. The problem is in a completely different plane - in our microelectronic industry. Rather, in its infancy. Even with primitive chips for banking and SIM cards, it is not able to provide the country. EMNIP produces only 2 million chips for bank cards per year, with a need of tens of millions. And judging by the ridiculous amount of funding for microelectronics, apparently at the top they think that they somehow lived without Derivation (and many other promising developments), and beyond the norms, because it will be painfully expensive to actually recreate the microelectronic industry. The fact that the losses are higher due to the impunity of drones, so who knows about them, this is classified information, especially the structure of losses.
      1. +1
        30 August 2023 10: 41
        Totally agree with you. Caliber 5.45 has "no" range in terms of drones. Shotgun? Well, how far would Saiga shoot in 12 gauge to hit a duck? :). We have a problem, as you rightly said, in microelectronics: in the fuse itself, in the guidance system. Making a remote detonation of a projectile is not a problem. These are technologies from the early 40s of the last century. The problem is that we have such 57-mm shells, but they are undermined if there is enough metal in the target. Against plastic drones, IMHO, they are ineffective.
        So the options are: either make multi-barrel systems with a breathtaking rate of fire and ammunition consumption, or make a remote detonation of a projectile using a different technology.
        1. +3
          30 August 2023 20: 20
          “Caliber 5.45 has “no” range in terms of drones.”
          What is the required range?
          I’ll assume that more than 400 is not needed, the quadcopter is guaranteed not to be visible any further. But not letting him get closer is necessary.
          Fraction is a stretch up to 100.
          Therefore, I put a 6 with an electric drive and forced air cooling on a 5,45-barrel. So that the cooling is no worse than on board.
          And 5,45 - to increase b/c compared to 7,62.
          1. +1
            30 August 2023 20: 37
            There is no shot right away, buckshot, but it is no further than 50 meters. Even an automatic shotgun solves the issue of a ship, a too highly specialized system that needs ammo cars ... A machine gun with a rate of fire of 3-6 thousand rounds per minute, shooting with a cut-off of 30-50 rounds, this is a shotgun, only much more versatile, using a standard ammo, which wagons are anywhere, including trophy and the ability to hit targets in a decent perimeter, as well as work on manpower.
            Any automatic shotgun can cover only the car on which it is installed and nothing more. This is a dead end path. We need systems that cover at least an introductory stronghold ...
          2. 0
            31 August 2023 18: 22
            IMHO there are a lot of cartridges in shitty caliber
        2. 0
          30 August 2023 21: 12
          Detonating a projectile remotely is not a problem.


          this is not about remote detonation of a projectile, but about remotely programmed detonation - when the time (range) of detonation of a projectile is remotely programmed at the moment the projectile exits the barrel using a special programmer.
          1. 0
            31 August 2023 10: 41
            This was still on 52-K. 1939 year. Programmer according to POISOT. I programmed the projectile before inserting it into the barrel. Electromechanics.
            1. -1
              31 August 2023 12: 00
              Quote: stankow
              This was still on 52-K. 1939 year. Programmer according to POISOT. I programmed the projectile before inserting it into the barrel. Electromechanics.

              The problem is not in the fuse itself, but in its dimensions. Making a programmable blaster for small-caliber systems is quite difficult. Yes, and in 52K, programming was carried out BEFORE the projectile was inserted into the barrel. But programming must be done in real time while the projectile leaves the barrel, and this time is very short in principle. We are talking about miles seconds, and the data also changes very quickly.
              1. 0
                1 September 2023 09: 59
                The data can be corrected by the guidance system; if it knows the target’s trajectory, it can guess where it will be after the projectile’s flight time. This is milliseconds for us; this time will be enough for the computer to make calculations.
        3. The comment was deleted.
  9. +7
    30 August 2023 07: 43
    As an option, multi-barrel systems of 7.62 caliber, as the last frontier, that's where the wall of bullets is. And aim faster, and there are thousands of rounds of ammunition right at the installation, and it’s easier, more mobile, any carrier!
    1. -1
      30 August 2023 09: 10
      And if the bullets would still fall apart after leaving the barrel ...
      1. 0
        31 August 2023 10: 44
        That didn’t fly anywhere ...
        ............................
    2. +1
      30 August 2023 11: 29
      Quote: Vadim S
      As an option, multi-barrel systems of 7.62 caliber, as the last frontier, that's where the wall of bullets is. And aim faster, and there are thousands of rounds of ammunition right at the installation, and it’s easier, more mobile, any carrier!

      Quadruple "Maximov"?
  10. +2
    30 August 2023 07: 58
    From the first lines, UAVs and S400, it becomes clear that the author is a layman just like the director of the Air Defense Museum speaking on TV. Where do you guys come up from?
  11. +12
    30 August 2023 08: 05
    35 mm GDF family

    The six-barrel version of the Swiss 35-mm gun is used in the German air defense systems Skyshield and MANTIS.

    Firstly, Oerlikon GDF guns are not used in the Skyshield and MANTIS systems, they use Rheinmetall 35/1000 Revolver guns.
    Secondly, the Rheinmetall 35/1000 Revolver gun is a single-barrel revolver.


    1. +5
      30 August 2023 10: 54
      Someone buys ready-made, someone creates his own on the basis of Oerlikon. The 20-mm family of guns began with the HS model, which later received the name GAI-CO, the Germans made their Rh-202 based on it, the Norwegians FK20-2 and so on.

      The German Rheinmetall Mk 20 Rh-202, which is also used on the Norwegian FK20-2, is based on the French Hispano-Suiza 820 L / 85 gun, manufactured under license from Rheinmetall. Oerlikon has nothing to do with its development.
      By the way, the French 20 mm modèle F2 is also a derivative of the Hispano-Suiza 820 L/85.
    2. +3
      30 August 2023 18: 38
      You got ahead of me - I also wanted to point out to the Author his mistake. He probably confused with the Goalkeeper - there are 6 rotating barrels, but the caliber is 30 mm.
      1. -1
        30 August 2023 21: 39
        confused with the Goalkeeper - there are 6 rotating barrels, but the caliber is 30 mm

        Goalkeeper CIWS has seven barrels.

        1. 0
          3 September 2023 07: 39
          I counted 6 - there is a cannon from Thunderbolt, it has 6 barrels. Did they add a seventh one? For what?
  12. +4
    30 August 2023 08: 36
    Well, the rate of fire of 70 rounds per minute is so-so.

    The rate of fire is 120. 60-70 is how many loaders can feed.
    BUT! The service manual says that with continuous firing after 50-60 shots, the barrel heats up to 450-500 degrees and it needs to be cooled for 3-4 minutes with a cooling unit to 80-100 degrees. Well, we consider the real rate of fire ...
  13. The comment was deleted.
  14. BAI
    0
    30 August 2023 08: 46
    Small-caliber automatic artillery is vital for combating small-sized, high-speed ground targets - jihad-mobiles. If we had enough of it, kho.kh.ly would not break through the defenses near Kharkov
    1. +15
      30 August 2023 09: 04
      If we had enough of it, kho.kh.ly would not break through the defenses near Kharkov
      If we didn’t have a court division from the Arbat Military District standing there, leaving entire T-90s to the enemy, then the defense would not have been broken through.
      1. BAI
        0
        30 August 2023 09: 57
        The title of the Guards should, of course, be removed from her, but everything is not so simple there
        1. +5
          30 August 2023 16: 59
          The title of the Guards should, of course, be removed from her, but everything is not so simple there
          Why is it ambiguous? Very clearly. Need to disband. A complete analogy with the Life Guards Semyonovsky Regiment. In 1905, he became famous for his punitive deeds. During WWI, he did not show himself at all. So did the Tamantsy - in 1993 they shot the parliament, but in 2022 they got rid of the Sumerians. In general, it’s a shame - almost the riot police stayed there for two days, and these very quickly disappeared, only the connection disappeared, and they rushed to look for it in our rear. The officer corps there is thieves, the Arbat military district, one word.
          1. 0
            30 August 2023 18: 48
            "Parquet Division". I completely agree with you.
  15. +5
    30 August 2023 09: 09
    Is it possible to add shrapnel against drones to tank protection or develop weapons similar to boarding guns that shoot shrapnel?
    1. +2
      30 August 2023 10: 01
      And why shrapnel, if KAZ is taught to see UAVs, then the action of a directed explosion of KAZ elements is more than enough to destroy the drone.
    2. -1
      30 August 2023 13: 46
      Shrapnel is not needed.

      On heavy equipment there are additional DUM. Apparently their functionality will expand in the zenith direction.
      1. 0
        1 September 2023 02: 21
        Decipher what DUM is, it's not clear
        1. 0
          2 September 2023 19: 13
          DUM / DUBM Remote Controlled (Combat) Module. The tank already has radars in the AZ system, optics and fire control systems with stabilization and anti-aircraft capabilities are now being tried to be installed on almost any module.
  16. +3
    30 August 2023 09: 22
    Mza

    There is also the "Galpiker", ZAK, which includes the famous GAU-8 "Avenger", which, by the way, is on the no less famous "Warthog"!
  17. +9
    30 August 2023 09: 30
    The author is deeply mistaken:
    1. Radar for combating UAVs is a dubious thing; optoelectronic detection systems are more useful.
    2. The rate of fire when using remote detonation is an unnecessary thing and harmful from an economic point of view.
    Watch the video of how the Shell works on small-sized UAV exercises and all your questions will immediately disappear, the Shell works beautifully, everything around the target is in tracers, but there is no harm from this target.
    At the same time, there are demonstration videos of the work of the German MZA also on a small-sized UAV (maneuvering) with single shots, the effect is on the face.
    Several shots (when using remote detonation) may and are needed for guaranteed destruction, but nothing more, firing bursts of ammunition with this is stupidity.
    1. +3
      30 August 2023 19: 33
      Quote: Igor K
      The shell works beautifully, everything around the target is in tracers, but the target is not harmed by this.
      This is because the principle of operation of our MZA is to create a cone of destruction, falling into which the aircraft will definitely stumble upon a projectile. The trouble is that the UAV is much smaller than the aircraft, for it you need to change the parameters of the cone or switch to other methods of destruction.
      1. 0
        31 August 2023 14: 04
        I completely agree with you, now new elements of warfare have appeared, we need to learn to live in these circumstances.
  18. +1
    30 August 2023 09: 43
    The war in Ukraine once again confirmed the second law of the development of society (read weapons) in a spiral at a higher level. When ubiquitous drones surf the sky, you can't do without MZA
  19. -3
    30 August 2023 09: 49
    Not the right answer, you need a promising solution, namely the optimal solution, I see the T-55/62 with the S-60 cannon, or two 37 mm each, or a 30 mm six-barreled machine gun, AFAR radars, a thermal imager and a 360-degree swir camera and self-propelled guns on AI is now a fashionable topic, 4 ATGM Attack and 4 MANPADS, only one way or another, I would also put a course AGS on the front plate and a 12.7 mm machine gun in the commander's tower.
    This is a universal solution for both BMPT and ZRSU soldier
  20. +2
    30 August 2023 09: 56
    State Corporation "Rosatom" is mastering the production of 57-mm shells for the Russian anti-aircraft artillery complex "Derivation". The shells will be produced with a remote programmable and contact fuse. But there is no data on how "the process has gone" and whether these shells can be used in the S-60.
    It is clear that the S-60 is extremely outdated precisely in terms of shells and guidance.

    The C-60 is just a gun that sends a projectile to the target or as close to the target as possible, which is more likely at a given rate of fire, the rest of the search, aiming at the target, detonating the projectile near the target is taken over by a separate system.
    It seems to me that in the fight against small-sized UAVs, an effective means of destruction will be either a quadruple installation of machine guns of 7,62-14,5mm caliber or a 57-76mm automatic gun with remotely detonated projectiles, well, maybe as an option some kind of shotguns for self-defense directly of equipment and positions .
  21. +1
    30 August 2023 10: 13
    You can write a lot, ask questions, theorize ... The main thing is that the country has degraded. There is no leadership capable of setting a task, there are no intelligent performers capable of realizing it. And so it is in all areas.
    1. -1
      31 August 2023 15: 36
      Quote: AVESSALOM
      the country has degraded

      Not all. There are still the most sane and following the path of progress both in terms of intelligence and Darwin. We have YOU and you are our only hope.
  22. +4
    30 August 2023 10: 13
    The author is mistaken when talking about the French 30-mm ZSU AMX-30DCA. Moreover, the photo does not show her, but the AMX-13DCA ZSU based on the AMX-13 light tank. ZSU AMX-30DCA was supplied by the French to Saudi Arabia in the amount of 53 units. (1979-1982), was not in service in France.
    1. +4
      30 August 2023 11: 20
      The author is mistaken when talking about the French 30-mm ZSU AMX-30DCA. Moreover, the photo shows not her, but the AMX-13DCA ZSU based on the AMX-13 light tank

      They are similar, but from a distance you can confuse them.


      1. +2
        30 August 2023 14: 15
        We'll have to argue. The photo in the article is taken close-up and only a person who does not understand technology at all can confuse the AMX-13 chassis with the AMX-30. Moreover, your photos are made of the same size, misleading the reader - they say they are proportionate. The length of the AMX-13 is 4.9 m, and the AMX-30 is 6.6 m. As they say, feel the difference, but in your photo, I repeat, they look the same size. There is nothing to argue - the wrong photo was published.
        1. +2
          30 August 2023 16: 07
          We'll have to argue.

          You can, of course, argue, even squeeze a minus sign in polemical excitement. And you can tighten up and remember that
          Irony is a rhetorical figure in which words are used in the reverse sense of the literal
          1. -1
            30 August 2023 17: 04
            Apparently, you are a lover of arguing just for the sake of arguing. Truth doesn't interest you much. You may want to raise your rating with empty chatter. I see that on the forum they got the colonel's shoulder straps. True, the site has already promised to demote numerous marshals and "generals" for verbiage. And then he scribbles not on business and is waiting for a raise. According to your remark, you are from this brethren.
            1. 0
              30 August 2023 21: 28
              And you would read my comments, articles, maybe your opinion would change. Or does the PWC not allow it?
              1. -1
                31 August 2023 05: 41
                I doubt. And so I wasted my time on you.
                1. 0
                  31 August 2023 18: 01
                  Then read Castaneda, "The Power of Silence." Perhaps it will help. If not, then King Solomon was right (Book of Ecclesiastes, chapter 1, verse 15).
                  1. -1
                    2 September 2023 07: 56
                    It's just amazing! Can you even hear yourself? I wrote that there was a mistake in the article, and you are already referring to Ecclesiastes. Isn't it time to see the doctors?
  23. +6
    30 August 2023 10: 19
    ZSU is certainly good.
    But the question is - when will they start making aircraft hangars at airfields, or at least canopies to protect machinery / equipment?
    1. +14
      30 August 2023 11: 01
      Quote: Trapper7
      But the question is - when will they start making aircraft hangars at airfields, or at least canopies to protect machinery / equipment?

      Never, because preparing equipment in more or less comfortable conditions will destroy the military spirit. smile
      It is clear to everyone that if you exchange this:

      here it is,

      then the army will immediately collapse.

      It seems that the Air Force still believes that modern aviation can fully operate from field sites (not use them as jump airfields, but work on a permanent basis) - and they train personnel for this every day and night.
      1. +6
        30 August 2023 13: 32
        Quote: Alexey RA
        then the army will immediately collapse.

        Worse. In heat, homosexuality can happen. Not in the usual army form, but in a terrible American one.
        1. 0
          30 August 2023 15: 31
          But for the sake of a joke: what is "ordinary army homosexuality"?
          1. +2
            30 August 2023 16: 37
            And there is such a tragicomic tale from the times of the Union: on some warship, a “godok” raped a sailor of the first year of service, and the latter decided to complain to the officer:
            - Comrade Lieutenant, the sergeant major fucks me.
            - What do you want, sailor? You - he, his - his commander, the commander - I, me - the commander of the warhead, the commander of the warhead - the commander of the ship, the commander of the ship - the commander of the fleet, the commander of the fleet - the commander-in-chief of the Navy, and the commander-in-chief - the Minister of Defense of the USSR! The whole fleet is on this! All around, step by step, march to serve!
            The sailor was not weakly taken aback by the described system, and only after some time they were able to figure out that by the word "e ... t" the illiterate sailor did not mean "driving in the service", but precisely that he "commits a violent homosexual act" .. .
          2. 0
            1 September 2023 08: 34
            Quote: Letterhead
            what is "ordinary army homosexuality"?

            Initially, it meant "remove the non-ferrous metal". But colleagues suggest that I underestimate our boys.
        2. +1
          30 August 2023 19: 13
          Quote: Negro
          Worse. In heat, homosexuality can happen. Not in the usual army form, but in a terrible American one.

          Well, one country created a good fleet based on Roma, whipping and sodomy. © smile
          1. 0
            1 September 2023 02: 27
            And Ollywood made from Alexander the Macedonian blue
          2. 0
            1 September 2023 08: 25
            Quote: Alexey RA
            one country a good fleet, based on Roma, lash and sodomy

            Well, why not introduce it, the Russian fleet has nothing to lose anyway. If our boys don't do it, NATO soldiers will.
    2. -9
      30 August 2023 11: 13
      Another brainwash. Well, try to calculate the price of a concrete shelter for an aircraft, even for a Su-57, and then estimate the same price for an Il-76. And the canopies will save only from the rain
      1. +11
        30 August 2023 14: 11
        Quote: Petya Nemtsev
        Another brainwash. Well, try to calculate the price of a concrete shelter for an aircraft, even for a Su-57, and then estimate the same price for an Il-76. And the canopies will save only from the rain

        Firstly, even ordinary stainless steel canopies will perfectly protect against copters with grenades. Secondly, these canopies will not allow you to see what is inside - whether there is equipment or not.
        And thirdly - calculate the cost of already destroyed / damaged equipment and how much you can make at least simple sheds in this amount.
        At least. The simplest ones.
        This is not an overbrain, this is ordinary housekeeping and mathematics.
      2. +4
        30 August 2023 16: 33
        Quote: Petya Nemtsev
        Another brainwash. Well, try to calculate the price of a concrete shelter for an aircraft, even for a Su-57, and then estimate the same price for an Il-76. And the canopies will save only from the rain

        And what, besides sheds and capital shelters, there are no other options?
        What's wrong with a reinforced hangar - like on Khmeimim?

        And in modern times, a concrete shelter is a pointless waste of money. It looks solid, but it is redundant against UAVs, but it no longer saves from standard UAB or UR.

        Ghardabiya airfield (Libya) after the attack on 19.03.2011/XNUMX/XNUMX.
  24. +1
    30 August 2023 11: 17
    Provide each infantry fighting vehicle with a communication channel with radars mounted on separate vehicles and receive target designation from them. Guidance is clear, in automatic mode. This is a finished anti-aircraft battery
  25. +2
    30 August 2023 11: 20
    I believe that it is necessary to speed up work on creating systems for acoustic detection and guidance of weapons against small and ultra-small targets. This is not the first time I have pointed this out. I just worked in this area and know something. The physical features of the method in terms of sensitivity are far, very far superior to traditional radar and are much smaller in size. The downside is that you need to have an acoustic “passport” of the target to be able to isolate it from the general noise. But, on average, it is enough to record the sound of a target once, and these sounds are correlated with other targets of the same type...
    1. -1
      1 September 2023 02: 30
      Well, it would be nice to put your alien defendant on the drones, the radar will shine and it will fly on them
  26. +5
    30 August 2023 11: 28
    And it became clear that even the most powerful anti-aircraft guns 130-mm KS-30 and 100-mm KS-19

    "We" had another 152 mm KM-52.

    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. -1
      31 August 2023 10: 51
      Really was. Masterpiece. And not experimental, but adopted. Two batteries.
  27. +4
    30 August 2023 11: 35
    Against very small copters, you should also use rapid-fire machine guns. First of all, GshG, but YakBy is also possible, the only latter, it may be necessary to modernize, in terms of increasing the survivability of barrels, it is possible to reduce the rate of fire by 20-30%, apply modern technologies in terms of strengthening barrels (nitrocarburizing, chromium plating), especially since such there are a lot of machine guns in aircraft hanging gondolas, but they are not in demand. They can be disassembled and the machine guns can be individually mounted on any equipment, including light jeeps, such as the same tigers or light robots, by analogy with those presented in the Republic of Belarus, especially since the Uranium platform is in principle mastered by industry. Moreover, there are no problems with BC in terms of 7,62 and 12,7. Again, you can make light stationary turrets for installation in trenches with a remote control in the dugout, and hit both light drones (reconnaissance and FVP-kamikaze), and use them against manpower. At the same time, such a turret is not expensive, and even if it is hit by enemy artillery, or even by a broken FVP, the loss is not as significant as the loss of an artillery system, even on the basis of the Zu-23-2, at least 30 mm, and even more so any derivations.
    Of course, all such machine-gun and cannon systems must operate in conjunction with integrated electronic warfare and anti-drone guns, air defense is always a system and does not work well individually.
    The anti-drone of the network is also a necessity, just like a thorn in the days of PVM ...
    1. The comment was deleted.
  28. +2
    30 August 2023 12: 53
    Yeah ...
    We all rest on the Soviet legacy ...
    But is there something radically new, not based on Soviet developments and your own, on your own components, and not imported?
    And so that not in single copies, but more or less massive and used at the front?
    This is a question not only for MZA, but in general for weapons, systems and equipment.
    Well, at least there is a Lancet - more or less a massive thing.
    The Ministry of Defense and the military-industrial complex were stuck in many positions somewhere at the turn of the 80-90s ...
  29. +1
    30 August 2023 12: 57
    The author of the Soviet C60 Spark ZSU 57-2 and Shilka, by joint actions, just thinned out the Israeli Air Force in the example you gave, and the Cuban ZSU 57-2 in Angola contributed to shooting down several South African mirages. And during the rebellion of the 17th division of the Afghan army, the Afghans shot down several planes and helicopters of the Soviet and Afghan air forces with the help of ZSU 57-2
  30. 0
    30 August 2023 14: 11
    Guidance system. The same AI. For which you need not 120 nm, and not even 90 nm. Which needs modern, not vintage electronics. Then tons of shells and thousands of shots per minute are not needed. This war shows everyone that it is not mass that decides, but accuracy. Well, as it shows...
    “Today, not everyone can look into tomorrow. Or rather, not only everyone can watch. Few people can do it.”©
  31. Eug
    +1
    30 August 2023 14: 40
    As far as I know, domestic shells with RADIO EXPLOSION (on command from the detection and tracking radar, not autonomous) have been around almost since the 40s. Maybe it's worth restoring their production? After all, it is not particularly difficult to determine the radar (IR, OL) range with the issuance of a radio command even by the MH drone, and the command radio detonation is technologically quite simple ... then 57 mm. a high-ballistics cannon on an armored personnel carrier / infantry fighting vehicle / infantry fighting vehicle turns into a song - it will knock down the body kit from the tank, make holes in the enemy’s LBT, crush the reinforced concrete shelter, “remove” the air target ... isolate the signal of a radio explosion and put on it an aimed interference (in order to undermine up to or in the process of firing) is almost unrealistic ...
  32. 0
    30 August 2023 15: 05
    A few comments.

    The S-60 is an excellent weapon, but the fragmentation effect of its projectile, i.e. what is needed to defeat light drones and drones is very modest. Associated with the high ballistics of the projectile and its small diameter. Even at 76 mm, the fragmentation action is higher. It is possible to make shrapnel with a GGE of 57 mm, but it doesn’t make much sense either. Again, due to ballistics and the not very large diameter of the projectile.

    It is possible to shoot from the S-60 at drones and light UAVs, but it turns out to be expensive and difficult: you need to drag 5 tons, equip a position, etc. in order to shoot down UAVs with a combat load of 5 kg.
  33. +1
    30 August 2023 15: 32
    Well, remote-controlled “Zushki” clicking single or cutting off two shells at a time is just a masterpiece.

    That is, the author does not understand the difference between a conventional fragmentation projectile and a projectile with remote detonation. It seems to him that it is better to shoot at the sky with a fan.
    In fact, in air defense they always limit the consumption of ammunition sufficient to hit a target with a given probability. And, if the defeat did not occur, a new cycle of shelling begins with the calculation of lead, pointing to the lead point and opening fire. Just because supplies are limited, and because continuing to fire towards the target if it is hit by the first round is stupidity.
    So, the probability of hitting a target with a projectile with remote detonation is many times higher than with a conventional fragmentation projectile, so the order of projectiles with remote detonation in the queue will be much less. So there is nothing strange in this restriction.
  34. -2
    30 August 2023 16: 35
    Roman, your style is not difficult to recognize. I read and thought about what option Roman would offer, but you left the question open.
    Regarding: "Pantsyr", somewhere in the "Reporter" there was infa that: "Pantsyr" did not justify itself. They were massively placed on the Moscow heights, but the effectiveness is about zero, and there is a lot of harm from fragments.
    That's why "Pantsyri" were removed from high-rise buildings. 23mm settings are more efficient.
    But whether this is true or not, who knows?
    Comrades, Muscovites, really took the "Pantsyri" off the roofs.
    Or was this some reporter just “chattering”?
    Reporters are liars even those. So their messages must be divided by 2
    1. 0
      30 August 2023 17: 57
      I don’t really understand why to put ZPRK on high-rises. There is a high altitude above ground level, and UAVs fly low. Will the declination angle be enough for them and won’t they be able to fire from above their own territory?
  35. 0
    30 August 2023 19: 10
    I read the article and comments and am simply shocked. Look where the enemy is moving and by the way it has a good result. These are laser systems. The same SORAD system already has a laser system and successfully hits not only the entire class of small and medium-sized UAVs, but also moving vehicles (tests have confirmed defeat, the car caught fire and was destroyed) This is the path you need to follow. I think there is no need to list the advantages. Tell me, is it expensive? Yes, it’s expensive today, but the prospect will quickly justify itself. This is from the same story as the UAV. And all ZSU 23,30,57, XNUMX is yesterday and not effective.
    1. +1
      30 August 2023 23: 28
      The enemy has the same problems. The war is here and now. And there are no lasers or other fantasy on LBS. But a grenade on a helmet, from a small plastic bastard, this is as much as you want. And here is a discussion of how to avoid this, perhaps with the use of MZA or not. So get out of the shock.
  36. 0
    30 August 2023 19: 17
    Product 2A90 is made in the ballistic solution of the C 60 gun, respectively, the ammunition is interchangeable. Naturally, a power supply unit with an electronic fuse, when fired from C 60, will not work, at least on a remote channel. If the customer is interested, the valiant design bureaus will work on the programmer and automatic control and guidance devices for the C 60 as soon as possible. But the future of the fight against UAVs is autonomous hunter drones, which will simply demolish everything that did not respond to "friend or foe" in the flight mission area.
    1. 0
      30 August 2023 21: 32
      ..the future of combating UAVs is autonomous hunting drones who will simply demolish everything that has not been answered...

      "Watchbird" (Watchbird) R. Sheckley?))
  37. 0
    30 August 2023 20: 32
    Unfortunately, Shilka is outdated for a very long time and practically does not meet the requirements of today.
  38. 0
    30 August 2023 20: 56
    Shooting a Hymars at a separate tank is frankly stupid.

    A $150 missile against a $000 tank? What's stupid about that?
    1. 0
      31 August 2023 01: 01
      If the tank is moving, you can't hit it with a highmars (unless by accident). They are designed exclusively for stationary purposes.
  39. 0
    30 August 2023 21: 41
    The article is large, but somehow the author vaguely described the current trend in the MZA - an increase in caliber, a decrease in the rate of fire when using projectiles with remotely programmed fuses.
  40. 0
    30 August 2023 23: 25
    For some reason, the author forgot that there are also drones of different "calibers". And if for drones in the size of a "Lancet" and more, it makes sense to shoot both 23- and 30- and even 57mm, then for a numerous, but no less dangerous mosquito like quadrics, this is redundant and expensive. It is necessary to take a 12,7 or 14,5-mm machine gun, even with rotating barrels, even though multi-barrels can be combined with a counter-battery radar, or any other small-sized millimeter-wave radar. A cloud of bullets will be enough for any copter
    1. +5
      31 August 2023 00: 55
      The problem with drones is not the projectile. And in the "eyes"
      It makes no sense to argue about calibers if the main question is: how to notice the copter in time?
    2. 0
      31 August 2023 15: 37
      And there are even smaller drones... A little larger than a pack of cigarettes..
  41. 0
    31 August 2023 09: 46
    Against drones, it is necessary to permanently install paired, or better yet quadruple, PCTs, with night lights and thermal cameras and short-range radar. The fire density is high, the cost is cheap. Why nothing has been done at the airfields during the year and a half of war is an open question.
  42. +2
    31 August 2023 10: 01
    Why was this article even written? Verbal fornication and transfusion from empty to empty.
  43. 0
    31 August 2023 11: 57
    To protect against small UAVs, a quad ZPU based on "Maxim" is better than ZUShka. Because you still need to lead the route to the target, and the fire density and fire density are higher. Well, the copter doesn’t need much, 1 rifle bullet disables it. Moreover, this cheap solution has not yet been implemented (probably installing such airfields at all airfields and covering the planes with chain-link nets + mask nets would be cheaper than 1 IL-76.
    1. 0
      31 August 2023 15: 35
      Yes, as an option, but Maxim has a rate of fire of only 600 rounds per minute .. The aiming range is just over a kilometer ..
  44. 0
    31 August 2023 12: 54
    As part of a network-centric war, all MZA on the battlefield must be networked, search for it, automatically connect to it. This network should contain information from external target designators, regimental air defense systems, as well as other means of detection, for example, KBB or electronic warfare, while MZA located on the ground may not have their own means of detection at all, and be controlled not even from a carrier, but from external DBMS centrally.
  45. 0
    31 August 2023 13: 48
    For drones at close range, the good old 4-barreled GSHG machine gun chambered for 7,62x54R, giving up to 6 thousand rounds per minute, could work well.
  46. 0
    31 August 2023 15: 33
    That's right .. Modern drones that can be a little larger than a pack of cigarettes from an air defense system can’t be knocked down. Yes, and larger ones like Shahid or Geranium from the S-200 or S-300 are also not realistic .. But from the ZU-23 it’s quite .. Or at least the Shell ... It’s also real ..
  47. -2
    31 August 2023 19: 53
    Suffice it to recall the waves of “Shaheds” that flew into Ukrainian cities

    Is this phrase not accidental?
  48. 0
    31 August 2023 21: 25
    I think that in addition to the emphasis on frontal armor and protection, armored vehicles will receive roof armor and protection, drones will be forced to become heavier and return to the reach of small anti-aircraft systems.
    Although, it is more difficult to reduce the projection of an armored object from above - the area is much larger than the front.
    As geometers and physicists say, the ideal geometric / physical body is a ball. Only it rolls poorly on the ground, unevenly strong, but levitating! It's true!
  49. +1
    1 September 2023 09: 43
    The gun, I repeat, is very, very good, even after 70 years. What is its main problem is the lack of modern ammunition and a normal rate of fire. For a modern anti-aircraft autocannon, this is critical.


    This gun is mounted on motorized leagues for direct support, there can be no talk of any air defense functions.

    Yes, it looks great. Fools Americans twist blocks of six barrels in order to squeeze out the maximum rate of fire, and in Russia they will click single. Shells, you know, cost money ...


    If there are shells with a programmable fuse and an aiming system leading the target, then this is a justified decision, why a rate of fire of 2000 shells per minute if a cardboard UAV blows off two? Well, are you sure that the possibilities of industry allow mass production of even such shells in order to shoot less wastefully. And, well, I also advise you to watch an advertising video about the skyshield from the developers, where she fires programmable projectiles at a group of quadrocopters, in the same way, giving them a short burst.


    And for which - it is important - there are shells with programmable fuses.


    Is there any? It seems that there is not a single video where something was shot down on the SVO with such shells, but there is a video where the Pantsir at point-blank range cannot knock down a penny Syrian bug from the guns (this is also the question of the incredible rate of fire, which, like, should be an advantage).
  50. -1
    1 September 2023 13: 51
    The author is absolutely right about the 30 mm caliber. If “Tunguska-M” and “Pantsir” are too expensive to stick them in every kilometer, then what’s stopping you from taking a rotating block of barrels from a 30-mm AK-306 naval rifle and placing it on a carriage, making a fire control post for three installations with optical -electronic guidance system, group and individual. Artificial intelligence is quite capable of tracking flying objects. Give the operator the opportunity to provide both group support and individual support for each installation.
    In general, the scope for creativity is huge.
    1. 0
      2 September 2023 10: 53
      What's stopping you? Dimensions! At a distance to effectively hit targets, these monsters are too noticeable and therefore vulnerable. They are suitable for protecting the rear, not the front.
  51. +1
    2 September 2023 10: 43
    The author writes nonsense. Some kind of saboteur. There is no better way to do harm than to demand the abandonment of existing weapons due to their “imperfection.”
    Each caliber has its own purpose. For example, drones. To hit a maneuvering drone at a distance of just one kilometer, even with absolutely correct aim, you need about 4 thousand bullets or shells fired in one second. At a distance of 100 meters, 30 is enough. Naturally, for such purposes, a small caliber will be better than any other.
    .
    You can reduce the overconsumption of ammunition by using explosive shells with a preset detonation range, or homing missiles. Then the requirement for a mandatory hit is removed: the explosion of a six-inch projectile is guaranteed to destroy the drone at a distance of up to 50 meters. But it won't be any cheaper. Plus, a big gun on the front line is hard to hide.
    This alone requires having light, maneuverable, small-caliber weapons that will shoot down the same drone at least a hundred meters from the trench, and a sedentary hovering quadcopter at 500. It’s even better if the same small-caliber rifle is brought closer to the target with the help of a fighter drone.
    .
    Taking into account the location of targets in the line of sight, the main range of their display and aiming should be optical. The main weapon of destruction is a Kalashnikov light machine gun with a computerized optical sight, or a portable robotic machine gun with remote control, or something small on a fighter drone...
    .
    Naturally, the best way would be light missiles with an optical seeker.
    1. 0
      20 September 2023 00: 24
      As a result, we come to understand a light, high-speed interceptor drone that shoots shrapnel and has the functionality of a kamikaze drone.
  52. 0
    3 September 2023 07: 58
    Quote: LastPS
    there is not a single video where such shells were used to shoot down something in the air defense system, but there is a video where the Pantsir at point-blank range cannot shoot down a cheap Syrian zhuzhik from the cannons (this also goes to the question of the incredible rate of fire, which supposedly should be an advantage).

    I agree, if you’re going to spend tens or hundreds of ammunition on one drone, then it should at least be inexpensive ammunition of about 7.62 caliber, or something like that. If we use smart projectiles with a programmable fuse or adjustable ones, then common sense dictates that the consumption of such projectiles on a target such as a drone, comparable in cost to the projectile itself, should be minimal, and therefore a higher rate of fire for such weapons as Derivation does not have sense. It is compensated precisely by the accuracy of guidance and calculation of the time of detonation. Consequently, an ammunition load of 80-100 shells is enough to destroy dozens of drones.
  53. -1
    3 September 2023 13: 09
    It might make sense to create an anti-drone air defense system based on the aviation S-5, equipping it with a laser beam guidance system.
    1. 0
      3 September 2023 19: 34
      There is a feeling that we should go on the attack. Once we got there.
      Maybe then the anti-drone system won’t have time to come in handy?.. love
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  55. 0
    3 September 2023 23: 21
    Anti-aircraft missile systems are designed to destroy high-speed maneuvering targets, that is, not to destroy UAVs.
    Even worse, anti-aircraft gun systems are also not designed to destroy UAVs.
    And when Rheinmetal offers its C-RAM system based on the Oerlikon cannon to combat UAVs - this, excuse me, I would call quackery, because the maximum damage radius is 4 km, and, for example, Bayraktar has a ceiling of 8 km and in general for effective Bayraktar's operating range is 40 km.
    I want to say that in order to defeat a UAV, you need a weapon designed specifically to defeat the UAV.
    And in our time of network-centric wars, we need to start with reconnaissance means, for example, modernizing the Kolchuga passive radar, famous in narrow circles.
    From an air defense point of view, a UAV is “firewood”, a very light but cheap target, and the only goal is to make the means of destruction even cheaper.
    This is not a difficult task, but it must first be set, and then financed, that’s all.
    P.S. 2 kopecks to catch up: the USA, Germany, China and some other countries are armed with C-RAM systems that in reality are not such, including the systems mentioned right here, but that’s another topic.
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  57. 0
    20 September 2023 00: 18
    People will go to great lengths, whatever they can think of, just to avoid installing the AK-630M-2. (sarcasm)
    By the way, for some reason they don’t remember about this beauty and its creators. This is where engineering really comes close to a masterpiece.
    Now to the point. Everything is beautifully written, the old people were remembered, but how can you protect important objects near cities and the cities themselves with such rapid fire? The drone will not always fly at the upper echelon; it may also cling to the ground. And how can you hit it if there are residential buildings behind it? The old fashioned way at random? The extended front line will also need to be greatly saturated. How many of these installations will be needed to cover the conditional 100 km of the front line?
    And by the way, a video has been circulating on the Internet for a long time about how they tried to shoot a copter from a Shell. This damned quad was performing anti-aircraft maneuvers. And it was not possible to defeat him with a double-barreled shotgun. I had to shoot a rocket, which is comparable in cost to a luxury foreign-made sports car.
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