Anti-aircraft guns that won't fire into the sky against torpedoes for beggars

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Anti-aircraft guns that won't fire into the sky against torpedoes for beggars

Rockets are, of course, good. It's unpleasant for ships, it's deadly for planes, it hurts cities. A missile today is an excellent means of attack and a good means of defense, since only a missile can shoot down a missile. Mainly because of speed and small size.

The rocket has marine relatives. These are torpedo missiles, they are generally a separate conversation and just torpedoes. All in all, story developed normally: rockets in the air, torpedoes underwater, a hybrid of rockets and torpedoes in both environments.



And now we have unforeseen scenario drones- kamikaze or single-use unmanned aerial vehicles. And literally over the past few years, these devices have evolved very much and from reconnaissance they have become quite shock.


This applied to air UAVs, but if you can hang a couple of VOG-type grenades on a completely civilian copter, then why are the devices that float on the water surface worse? Moreover, they can simply be made more and cram more explosives?

Actually, this is what was done.

But let's see what is a maritime drone at its core? This is just a boat, with a decent gasoline engine that allows you to sail far and fast (relatively, of course), a control system on a satellite channel and, in fact, a valuable load of explosives with some kind of detonator.


I must say that the idea itself is not new, it was implemented by our ancestors back in the 30s of the last century, creating a small submarine of the APSS project and G-5 radio-controlled torpedo boats. Germans, Italians - all were later. But the idea of ​​controlling a boat with an explosive charge has been around for a long time, it’s just that the controls were not quite suitable for such tasks.

And besides, boats stuffed with explosives had only one advantage: a lot of explosives could be laid. This mainly made sense when undermining bridges, for everything else, torpedoes served perfectly.

Now it is worth saying a few words about torpedoes.


The torpedo has also evolved over the past hundred years and from a deadly blank, capable of simply walking in a straight line or describing circulation, has turned into a remotely controlled weapon or even independently searching for a target using hydrophones or sonars.

In principle, the torpedo is still the most difficult naval weapon to detect. She goes under water, you can only hear her, but this is also a problem, because the torpedoes are getting quieter. Yes, difficulties with the carrier, because it is either a submarine or a ship. Torpedo bombers died out as a class a long time ago, although during the Second World War they had just a huge number of sunken ships.

So yes, surface ship or submarine. Any of these carriers can launch a torpedo into an enemy ship. Modern torpedoes can be used both against surface ships and submarines, fortunately, the cruising range and immersion depth allow.


You can even say that basically torpedoes are intended for submarines, the ship is quite good and the missiles come in.

Let's look at the drone and the torpedo, placing them side by side. Drone - Ukrainian "Mikola-3", caught near Sevastopol, we will take our USET-80 torpedo, as the most serving in our navy.


"Mikola" is lighter, only about a ton. USET-80 weighs about two, but everything is clear here, movement in a dense aquatic environment is forcing.


The drone has a conventional gasoline engine, while the torpedo has an electric battery. The speed characteristics are approximately equal, for the boat 60 km / h, for the torpedo 45 knots, which in terms of gives almost 70 km / h. The range of the torpedo is up to 18 km, the boat can be at sea as long as the fuel supply allows, it is stated up to 60 hours.

The combat component is also approximately the same: a boat can take up to 200 kg of explosives, a torpedo has 300 kg. The torpedo is guided by itself, the boat must be guided manually.

The cost of the boat is approximately more than 16 million rubles, the cost of USET-80 is 30 million rubles.

In general, as you can see, the comparison is not in favor of an unmanned boat. It is more visible, more vulnerable (more on that below), it seems to have more autonomy, but as soon as we remember the autonomy of a submarine, it becomes sad.

In general, such a marine drone is a torpedo for the poor.

Yes, they were used by all sorts of bearded guys on ships, and just here lies the answer to the most important question: if a marine drone is worse than a torpedo, then why is it used?


That is why they use it because torpedoes cannot be used! Well, where, tell me, do the bearded men in the Persian Gulf or off the coast of Sudan have ships and submarines?

By the way, the same applies to the Ukrainians.

"Ivan Khurs" and "Priazovye" were attacked by such controlled boats precisely because the Ukrainians have nowhere to launch a torpedo! There is not a single ship left in the Ukrainian Navy capable of taking torpedoes on board and launching them! No one!

The casket opens very simply. Not a single torpedo tube remained for the entire Ukrainian navy. That's why kamikaze sea drones, fortunately, they exist.

And here, no matter how comical it may look, it's time to talk about protection against guided under-torpedoes, because for all their wretchedness, they pose a real threat to ships. Especially for those who are not armed in such a way as to repulse these units.

And it is not easy to defend against a floating guided mine. The fact is that somehow such a threat as a five-meter floating explosive carrier assembled in a garage from absolutely civilian components was not even foreseen.


Let's think about how to neutralize such a threat carrier as a low-lying in the water, controlled at a great distance apparatus.

1. Rockets. I think the result will be satisfactory, but nothing more. Anti-ship missiles are simply stupid to use, the target is small.


Anti-aircraft missiles are more interesting as an option, but there are doubts that the IR-GOS will clearly capture a small engine. Air defense missiles hit air kamikaze drones, but it will be more difficult to do this at sea due to the fact that there is no such temperature difference as at altitude. Although here, too, there may be different conditions.

2. Artillery guns.


It's a pointless and merciless thing: to hit a 76-130-mm gun even with radar guidance at such a target as a five-meter boat. The rate of fire will not allow covering a vessel dancing on the waves at a more or less working distance, and then a “dead zone” begins with such guns.

3. Air defense artillery.


Here it is more interesting. Barrels that have guidance from the radar, with a higher rate of fire, so they can definitely become an obstacle in the way of a drone boat. It was not in vain that Russian ships fought back with the help of MTPU, a naval pedestal machine gun mount with a 14,5 mm Vladimirov machine gun.


MTPU is guided completely manually, however, according to the radar, so the defeat of suicide boats indicates a very high level of training of Russian sailors, the installation does not have a high rate of fire, so the accuracy of the calculation is very important here. And one bullet is enough for the drone to spread the giblets over the water surface.

And if, instead of a manually operated MTPU, we have a similar installation with servo drives or hydraulics, and besides, it’s more rapid-fire ... You can even make a 12,7 mm caliber, a 14,5x114 mm cartridge is clearly redundant for a plastic boat with a motor.

4. Electronic warfare.


Here, in theory, everything is gorgeous. On these Mikols, you can easily see the Starlink terminal, which you can light up easily and simply, and the drone can simply turn into a boat with explosives. In general, it is interesting, in the event of jamming, how the processes will go, the Mikola will turn into an unguided torpedo or simply start blowing bubbles on the spot.

But there is a downside. The electronic warfare station weighs a lot and not every ship can be installed on it. So, in fact, I cut off the connection between the drone and the operator and hello, catch the boat and take it apart for parts, nothing will happen. But the trouble is, yes, it's easier to put machine guns than antennas and all other electronic giblets.

Of course, for any type of weaponry, radar equipment and thermal imagers are needed. The latter are very useful at night, they will complement the radar in the process of detecting low-sided trouble carriers.

The result is some kind of “Back to the Future”, during the Second World War, when by its second half large ships massively abandoned catapults with seaplanes and torpedo tubes and put small-caliber anti-aircraft guns wherever possible. Well, at least that's what the Americans and the British did, taught by Japanese and German pilots.

Shall we take a little excursion into history? It is small, but impressive.

Take the American Fletcher-class destroyer.


Built in a huge series of 175 ships and plowed the whole war in a way that many never dreamed of. There, in terms of anti-aircraft weapons, there were many experiments worthy of a separate article, but by 1943 they settled down on this set: 5 twin 40-mm Bofors and 7 single-barreled 20-mm Oerlikons. That is, 10 40mm barrels and 7 20mm barrels.

Now let's look at our destroyer leader "Tashkent".


The ship is larger than the Fletcher (4000 tons of total military equipment versus 3000 for the American) was armed with a twin 76-mm turret, 6 37-mm anti-aircraft guns and 6 12,7-mm machine guns.

There is a difference, right? No, the Fletchers too aviation drowned, 4 destroyers were sunk during the entire war with bombs and aerial torpedoes, and 6 kamikazes were sunk only in the battle for Okinawa! And in total, the Fletchers account for 1 Japanese battleship, 10 destroyers, 21 submarines and a bunch of other ships. Own American losses of "Fletchers" during the war - 18 destroyers.

But here it is not worth comparing the number of Japanese aircraft, because "Tashkent" in its battle, where it received heavy damage for the first time, could not fight off THREE aircraft that bombed from a height of about 4000 meters. But they were tough pilots who knew how to accurately place bombs.

But the second raid, after which the ship ended up in its last repair, where it was finished off, happened after the air defense was strengthened during the first repair. And "Tashkent" was hollowed out all day, making more than 90 sorties. Yes, the leader was damaged, but he got to the base, and three downed planes are three downed planes. By those standards, a lot.

And all they did was replace the useless 45-mm anti-aircraft guns with machine guns.


This historical digression shows one thing: the more trunks look into the sky, the easier it is for the ship to live. The next appearance of remotely controlled suicide boats, and they are not drones, but remotely controlled boats, requires some revision of the entire concept of ship defense.

Of course, MTPU has already shown some effectiveness, but alas, this is a very big dependence on the shooter, his skills and abilities. Remotely controlled (preferably by a computer according to radar data) weapon stations with stabilized guidance, controlled according to data from shipborne radars - this will be a very serious barrier to homemade explosives.

But do not forget about the number of trunks. It is clear that suddenly hundreds of machine guns will not come out of nowhere, the trunks of which will bristle the ships of the Black Sea Fleet, but in addition to the MTPU 3-4 "Korda" - this is very decent. Moreover, at least one such machine gun must be equipped with a thermal imager.


Of course, it is difficult to take and equip all ships with combat modules, but we know how to get out. By the way, "Berezhok" would be great, it has everything, both sights and a stabilizer, it would only be necessary to remove the grenade launcher - and a wonderful module that can find a place on the ship.


But this does not negate the increase in the number of trunks on board.

Here is the simplest example: "Ivan Khurs" was attacked at the exit from the straits. And if this happens directly in the strait? In a narrow place filled with a large number of civilian boats, some of which may turn out to be somewhat different from what they really are?

Yes, who said that "Mikola-4" will not look like an ordinary boat with an awning? Easy! And the crews on duty will not have much time to "buy" the suddenly appeared enemy.

The alignment is as follows: the command of the Black Sea Fleet simply needs to develop a concept for anti-sabotage combat on ships that may be in the area of ​​​​action of Ukrainian remote-controlled suicide boats. And the best solution may be to simply increase the heavy machine guns on board the ship, coupled with trained crew from among the Marines of the fleet.

And "torpedoes for the poor" will not be terrible. Of course, provided that the radar operators also do not feel relaxed behind the consoles.

So the call to give ships anti-aircraft guns that will look down is not so stupid as it might seem at first glance.
74 comments
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  1. +15
    20 June 2023 03: 20
    It's a pointless and merciless thing: to hit a 76-130-mm gun even with radar guidance at such a target as a five-meter boat.

    Mildly, very mildly, debatable. In addition to the actual direct hits, there is also a fragmentation action and a high-explosive one. And the installation of programmable fuses is also there.
    And the best solution may be to simply increase the heavy machine guns on board the ship, coupled with trained crew from among the Marines of the fleet.
    And then bam, the arrival of anti-ship missiles.
    1. +5
      20 June 2023 07: 01
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      Mildly, very mildly, debatable. In addition to the actual direct hits, there is also a fragmentation action and a high-explosive one. And the installation of programmable fuses is also there.

      Quite right, it all depends on the detection range of such shock drones and on the distance of opening fire.
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      And then bam, the arrival of anti-ship missiles.

      For this there is a ship's air defense.
      By the way, it is the same ship's air defense that can work quite effectively against such targets with its 30 mm. automatic machines with radar and OE (optical-electronic) guidance. And if the Pantsir-M air defense system is deployed on ships, then its short-range missiles could hit such targets at their detection range with a millimeter / extreme centimeter radar. Fortunately, missiles with radio command guidance are not large and not too expensive for such a dangerous target.
      Well, sticking bollards with machine guns along the sides also does not hurt, as the last line of defense of the ship from such kind of threats.
    2. +3
      20 June 2023 08: 48

      DShKM aboard the frigate "Regele Ferdinand"
      DUM from the Romanian company Digital Bit
      A line under the general name AGIL





      1. +4
        20 June 2023 09: 42
        Quote: Mister X
        DShKM aboard the frigate "Regele Ferdinand"
        DUM from the Romanian company Digital Bit
        A line under the general name AGIL

        Good decision . We have a "Kord" with a remote control on the T-90M, it is possible to make a ship version based on this installation. And perhaps she is.
        But this is still the last line of defense of the ship.
        1. 0
          2 August 2023 09: 12
          Raptor boats have a serial DUM with KPVT
      2. -1
        20 June 2023 18: 12
        Beautiful, how. But, imagine a situation where there are several attacking boats and they are armored. Such a setting may not be enough given the small capacity of the tape and the relatively weak impact of bullets in caliber 12,7 mm.
        1. +4
          20 June 2023 18: 33
          Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
          But, imagine a situation where there are several attacking boats and they are armored.

          Then it will be a hefty tank, and ordinary artillery will drown it.
          1. +2
            21 June 2023 03: 19
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Then it will be a hefty tank, and ordinary artillery will drown it.

            Which is not on "Khurs" ...
            1. +3
              21 June 2023 20: 08
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Which is not on "Khurs" ...

              But don’t you think that it’s too expensive to develop a type of weapon that is suitable only against a couple of ships of a potential enemy, which have no combat value, besides?
              1. 0
                22 June 2023 03: 25
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                But don’t you think that it’s too expensive to develop a type of weapon that is suitable only against a couple of ships of a potential enemy, which have no combat value, besides?

                Well, what are these firewalls - a new look? Even discarding the fact that these are firewalls. Just a special case of an unmanned boat. Compared to UAVs: even in development - a penny, because staying in the air and on the water is not a task comparable in difficulty.
                Well, attack the Khurs boat with a 20-30 mm machine gun, what would happen to the Khurs? And there are more than one thousand of such boats from anyone.
        2. +2
          20 June 2023 18: 35
          Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
          there are several attack boats and they are armored

          Gyurza armored boats have light aluminum armor, it can only protect the crew from 7,62 mm caliber bullets.
          And only Batman has armored drones)
          1. +1
            21 June 2023 13: 37
            Are armored boats rare? You can book a floating drone without any serious problems.
            1. 0
              21 June 2023 18: 17
              Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
              You can book a floating drone without any serious problems.

              Can.
              Will the weight of the armor affect speed and maneuverability?
            2. +3
              21 June 2023 18: 52
              From the CPV? Then you have to put armor from the old destroyer. He will easily break through one from the new one.
        3. 0
          21 July 2023 17: 23
          Kpvt pierces more than 20mm of armor at a distance of 800m (it’s unrealistic to hit it manually that far). KORD / UTES / DShK UP TO 20mm per 100 meters and mine 10 mm per 1 km ...
          To give the drone more armor, you need to increase its size and dviglo, which means it will be easier to detect. And these drones are plastic, they can be shot with BZs from the PCM.
    3. 0
      21 July 2023 17: 14
      Well, not to the detriment, but to train the sailors on duty to shoot from machine guns and issue roughly 4 machine guns with optics so that everyone looks in their own direction and every 2-4 hours this is the norm, no costs, no design changes, and not even necessarily Cord, PKM as a whole is enough with armor-piercing incendiary ones. In the end, if the sailor starts shooting, the anti-aircraft gunners will support him.
      The 105 and 130 mm guns also have normal speed, it’s hard on such small targets, of course, but even if it hits nearby, it’s likely that if it doesn’t hit, it will deviate from the course or turn it over.
      76 is really a small caliber, I would change it to either 57 or 30 mm automatic.
  2. +10
    20 June 2023 03: 27
    Are sea drones visible from an air drone? Then a drone should hang over every ship of the Russian Navy around the clock. You just need to increase the crew by 3-4 people, and 3-4 drones and the same number of drone operators. Is there really no money in the budget of the same Black Sea Fleet for the purchase and training of operators?
    1. +5
      20 June 2023 05: 45
      Do admirals need it? They do not go to sea. Well, if you just take out the ports of the enemy, then life will become easier.
    2. +4
      20 June 2023 10: 07
      Quote: Mekey Iptyshev
      the drone should hang around the clock

      What if the weather is bad?
      1. -2
        20 June 2023 21: 51
        Quote: Mister X
        What if the weather is bad?

        Phased array radars are needed, weather is not a problem for them and they are best at finding targets both in the air, above water and on water. On larger ships above the top mast for optimum visibility. And for destruction, rapid-fire assault rifles of caliber from 20mm, with a programmable ammo filled with tungsten buckshot and a parallel tape with BOPS, in the case of a well-protected target, such as anti-ship missiles. One AFAR radar will allow you to identify and track several targets at once, but there should be several machine guns for hitting targets, since an attack on flagships and other large and important ships can be carried out by dozens of such surface drones at the same time. The design of such a drone can be made of Kevlar thick enough to withstand even 12,7 hits, because distances and immersion in water must be taken into account. In addition, Kevlar can be used to reduce radio contrast and weight. But it is necessary, it is not necessary, the reality is harsh and nothing will appear quickly of course. But it is worth expecting massive attacks by a whole swarm of such drones in the near future, and here it is necessary to urgently supply the sailors with good optics and supply several cords, DShK, or KPVT and train and train so that the sailors get a seagull in och .. ko from km.
        1. +1
          21 June 2023 07: 17
          Quote: karabas-barabas
          We need a phased array radar

          And ask the storm to calm down.
          And it's impossible to fly.
          Neither manned nor unmanned.
          1. 0
            21 June 2023 21: 56
            Quote: Mister X
            And ask the storm to calm down.

            What storm? I didn’t write about a UAV with a radar, but I’m talking about a radar station above the ship’s mast. A constantly hanging UAV looks like nonsense, since the meaning of an UAV flying around a ship is generally incomprehensible when it is possible to install a radar station on a mast, as they do all over the world on modern ships. Here, apparently, according to the minuses to me and the pluses for the crazy idea of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbhanging UAVs, lovers of spherical horses in a vacuum gathered to discuss this article.
    3. +5
      20 June 2023 18: 36
      Quote: Mekey Iptyshev
      You just need to increase the crew by 3-4 people, and 3-4 drones and the same number of drone operators.

      And persuade the wind not to blow.
    4. 0
      20 June 2023 22: 15
      Yes, not necessarily a drone, raise the mast 50-70 meters with cameras and you can already see for many hundreds of meters around each boat along diverging waves
    5. -1
      21 June 2023 01: 06
      Then a drone should hang over every ship of the Russian Navy around the clock.


      Yes, a small tethered airship on which RADAR ANTENNAS are installed, radar and optoelectronic equipment.
      1. +1
        21 June 2023 07: 20
        Quote: assault
        small tethered airship

        One has already flown over the USA.
        The wind took...
        There was hysteria in the press for 2 weeks.
  3. +3
    20 June 2023 05: 28
    "Speed ​​characteristics are approximately equal, the boat has 60 km / h,"
    The speeds of all floating objects are measured in knots. There is no division. Who can conveniently translate into km / h.
    1. -1
      20 June 2023 10: 20
      For sailors, forgive me, only a certain substance floats, everything else goes. This is just in addition to knots and km/h.
    2. mz
      +5
      20 June 2023 14: 08
      Quote: Coward
      The speeds of all floating objects are measured in knots. There is no division. Who can conveniently translate into km / h

      No, only floating in the sea-ocean. The speed of river vessels is measured in km/h.
    3. +2
      20 June 2023 16: 57
      What do you want if the author of this opus cannot correctly recalculate nodes in km / h?
      "... the torpedo has 45 knots, which in terms of gives almost 70 km / h."
      These same 45 kn give in terms of not "almost 70", but a full 83 km / h.
    4. -1
      20 June 2023 20: 09
      And the threads are in inches. And displacement in registered tons©. And there is also an extreme exit and sailing ships. But we will not engage in perversions. Let's speak Russian and use the SI system, right? Or show-offs are more expensive than money?
      1. +2
        20 June 2023 22: 49
        A nautical mile is a very standard unit of measurement equal to 1 minute (40.000 km equator / 360 degrees / 60 minutes = 1.852 km)
  4. UVB
    +12
    20 June 2023 05: 41
    45 knots, which in terms of gives almost 70 km / h.
    45 knots is 83,3 km/h.
  5. +5
    20 June 2023 06: 04
    the problem of unmanned kamikaze boats is not even in destruction, but in detection. This requires thermal imaging cameras "around" and continuous monitoring
  6. +1
    20 June 2023 06: 10
    After all, the ship is limited in size, you need to look at what and how much you can. In my opinion, GSHG and YaKB would be suitable, but with thermal imagers and the possibility of guidance along the radar bearing. And shipborne electronic warfare should be mandatory if it needs to be done now.
  7. Eug
    0
    20 June 2023 06: 31
    I read about the installations of an inventor from Australia, like a bullet-caliber MLRS, a crazy rate of fire during capacitor initiation and a wall of fire, though at a short distance. The most interesting thing is that they even overcame armor by softening it with a massive hit on a limited area, and, as far as I remember, you can shoot almost with your hands with a reasonable number of barrels. It was proposed as an air defense of small boats, "didn't work" due to the impossibility of quick reloading, perhaps how will the Anti-Drone Defense (PDO) tool be successful? The question, as for me, is the range.
    1. +4
      20 June 2023 06: 48
      Quote: Eug
      I read about the installations of an inventor from Australia

      "MetalStorm" seems to be a one-time crap with a fatal flaw in the form of a very different initial speed of the first and last shots.
  8. +6
    20 June 2023 06: 36
    It must be said that the idea itself is not new, it was implemented by our ancestors back in the 30s of the last century, creating a small submarine of the APSS project and G-5 radio-controlled torpedo boats. Germans, Italians - all were later.

    The first experiments with “remote-controlled” (by wire and radio from a self-propelled boat) boats (with explosives) were carried out in Kaiser Germany back in 1916. Source in Russian "Unique and 6 military equipment" by Katorin.
    They were called Fernlenkboot, abbreviated as Fl.


    Built in two series: the first with Fl1 pr Fl12, the second with Fl13.

    All the good days!
    1. +3
      20 June 2023 12: 21
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      The first experiments with “remote-controlled” (by wire and radio from a self-propelled boat) boats (with explosives) were carried out in Kaiser Germany back in 1916.

      In 1917, the Germans even managed to get one of the FL into the MN "Erebus". And by the end of WWI, the Reich already had radio-controlled demolition boats controlled from an aircraft.
  9. +7
    20 June 2023 06: 54
    Strange, but the Azov reconnaissance ship fought off the firewalls with the help of the standard AK 630 complex. Almost all of our ships are armed with these complexes or similar ones: Duet, Broadsword, Kortik, Pantsir-M, AK 306.
    Many auxiliary vessels and small ships and boats have standard 14,5 mm MPTU.
    Why these inventions of a bicycle in the form of "Berezhka"?
    1. +1
      20 June 2023 12: 14
      The AK-630 is a rather large and expensive unit, not suitable for every boat or small ship. 14,5 MTPU, as it were, has drawbacks that do not allow you to fully rely on it. The resource of the barrel before overheating is 150-200 shots, the capacity of the tape is 50 rounds, the absence of a night sight and manual aiming from a standing position. There are also complaints about delays in firing.
      DBMS with 12,7 mm machine guns are also not very suitable when it comes to ship survivability. Due, again, to the low resistance of the barrel and the low capacity of the tape. 7,62 mm PKT may not be enough due to low penetration.
      So, ideas to adapt something land-based and inexpensive may well have the right to life. Starting from the land-based ZU-23-2 and returning to the naval 25-mm twin universal gun 2M-3 with the installation of modern sights.
      1. +1
        20 June 2023 21: 38
        As usual, we attract the ears.
        12,7 on the DUM can have a much more survivable barrel than the same machine gun in the infantry version.
        Weight is not important. A queue of several hundred shots is much easier to organize than screwing a ZUSHKA with blue electrical tape to the deck.
        1. 0
          21 June 2023 13: 44
          Here's how to make an appropriate, much more tenacious, barrel, put it on right away, then it won't be far-fetched. Even on land vehicles, the 7,62 PTK barrel must be replaced when it overheats. Although how do you know?
          Doesn't the capacity of the cartridge box seem insufficient? After all, the barrel of your newest system does not overheat, and can pour out fire endlessly.
          1. 0
            23 June 2023 20: 40
            Infantry 12,7 and that one is under modernization about the new barrel. Follow the news. And the profile marine is a matter of desire.
            I'm talking about the box. How much should fit in it? 250? 500?
            For a plastic boat the size of a fishing boat, a few hits are enough. Vibration will do the rest.
            But something weighing a ton and hydrofoils may already have armor. Fortunately, the projection is scanty. And there that 12,7 that 23 makes no difference.
    2. 0
      20 June 2023 21: 31
      And what's so strange???? This is a standard task for this type of weapon.
  10. +1
    20 June 2023 07: 12

    Vladimir UU is right: that's what you need. The projectile is sensible
  11. 0
    20 June 2023 07: 28
    . The electronic warfare station weighs a lot and not every ship can be installed on it.

    And now it’s for everyone - electronic warfare combined with a radar.
  12. +5
    20 June 2023 08: 17
    Every donkey is good at kicking a dead lion. On the way from Sevastopol, the leader of "Tashkent" was repeatedly attacked by enemy bombers. And he received the most serious damage not from !!! Three aircraft from a height of 4000 m, and from a raid by dive bombers, according to the memoirs of those who participated in the last campaign of the "blue cruiser", there were several raids, involving from 9 to 22 aircraft.
    And despite the damage to the cars and steering, the leader reached the port.
    1. +1
      20 June 2023 12: 18
      Quote: Severok
      And he received the most serious damage not from !!! Three aircraft from a height of 4000 m, and from a raid by dive bombers, according to the memoirs of those who participated in the last campaign of the "blue cruiser", there were several raids, involving from 9 to 22 aircraft.

      We read carefully:
      But here you should not compare the number of Japanese aircraft, because "Tashkent" in his battle, where he received heavy damage for the first time could not fight off THREE aircraft bombing from a height of about 4000 meters.

      The first time "Tashkent" received heavy defeats on August 30, 1941.
      At 15 hours 42 minutes, the commander of the signalmen's department, foreman of the 2nd article AM ​​Tsepin and the signalman A.A. Gordienko reported to the commander of the leader about the appearance of enemy aircraft: "Three aircraft at the zenith!" At 15:45, bombs rained down on the leader. Yu-88 bombers attacked Tashkent from level flight at a heading angle of 90° and dropped 4000 high-explosive bombs of 12 kg each from a height of 250 meters. Anti-aircraft fire was opened on the aircraft, and the commander of the leader V.N. Eroshenko gave commands: "Full speed ahead!" and "Right to Board", which were immediately and accurately executed. The leader rolled to the right, rapidly increasing speed to 24 knots. But this was not enough.

      One 250-kg aerial bomb exploded near the stern of the ship on the starboard side (area 192 - 205 frames) between the leader's hull and the exit point of the propeller shaft. The hull of "Tashkent" received a strong concussion from a powerful hydrodynamic impact. The leader was thrown sharply to the left, and cascades of outboard water fell on the upper deck. The lighting went out, the steering gear stopped working, the trim to the stern began to increase, increasing immediately by 0,15 meters. The heavily damaged ship stopped and if a new attack from the air followed now, the "Tashkent" would be sunk. But the unloaded three "Junkers" flew away, and, fortunately, they did not wait for a new raid. The struggle for the survivability of the ship began.

      And the reason for these damages was not only weak air defense, but also the fact that in the zone of enemy aviation the leader had only half of the boilers under steam, which limited his speed to 24 knots.
  13. +7
    20 June 2023 10: 31
    It must be said that the idea itself is not new, it was implemented by our ancestors back in the 30s of the last century, creating a small submarine of the APSS project and G-5 radio-controlled torpedo boats. Germans, Italians - all were later.

    Yes Yes Yes, Russia is the birthplace of elephants. © smile
    The first successful attack by remote controlled exploding boats was on October 28, 1917. The wire-controlled Fernlekboot boat hit the side of the Erebus monitor - but the monitor's PTZ extinguished the energy of the explosion.
    And in May 1918, the Germans already had Fernlekboot Type B ready - with radio control. But, as often happens, the wunderwaffe was late for the war ... smile
  14. +3
    20 June 2023 11: 55
    Anti-aircraft missiles are more interesting as an option, but there are doubts that the IR-GOS will clearly capture a small engine.

    And which of the naval air defense systems has missiles with IR-GOS? Well, except for MANPADS and all sorts of "Gibok"?
    The bulk of the missiles have either PARL GOS or RKTU. In the first case, you need a reflected signal from the target of sufficient power to capture the seeker. In the second, the calculation must see and guide the target either through the radar or through the optical channel - so that the missile guidance point coincides with the target.
    It's a pointless and merciless thing: to hit a 76-130-mm gun even with radar guidance at such a target as a five-meter boat.

    And what, remote grenades and other shells with adjustable detonation time were canceled? What will happen to the surface of the boat and guidance equipment after the arrival of fragments / GGE from a 76-100 mm projectile?
    Take the American Fletcher-class destroyer.
    Built in a huge series of 175 ships and plowed the whole war in a way that many never dreamed of. There, in terms of anti-aircraft weapons, there were many experiments worthy of a separate article, but by 1943 they settled down on this set: 5 twin 40-mm Bofors and 7 single-barreled 20-mm Oerlikons. That is, 10 40mm barrels and 7 20mm barrels.
    Now let's look at our destroyer leader "Tashkent".
    The ship is larger than the Fletcher (4000 tons of total military equipment versus 3000 for the American) was armed with a twin 76-mm turret, 6 37-mm anti-aircraft guns and 6 12,7-mm machine guns.
    There is a difference, right?

    Between the air defense of 1942 and the air defense of 1944? Let's compare the pre-war "seven" with "Giring" ...
    The Fletcher's air defense for 1942 is 127/38, one "Chicago piano" (who got it) and several Oerlikons. And the "Bofors" went only in 1943, and the air defense increased gradually.
    This historical digression shows one thing: the more trunks look into the sky, the easier it is for the ship to live.

    The example of the Japanese shows that the matter is not in the trunks alone. It is possible to force MZA at least all the decks and roofs of the towers, but if there is not or there is not enough normal SUAO for them, then these installations will only be a means of psychologically calming the crew.
  15. -1
    20 June 2023 12: 32
    Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
    And if this happens directly in the strait? In a narrow place filled with a large number of civilian boats, some of which may turn out to be somewhat different from what they really are?

    Well, it's like shitting in front of the door of Erdogan's apartment and leaving a note who did it ....
    Even Ukraine will not agree to this.
    Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
    Air defense missiles hit air kamikaze drones, but it will be more difficult to do this at sea due to the fact that there is no such temperature difference as at altitude

    Interesting for tanks, cars, just people who are
    on the ground, even in the Syrian summer they get (not missiles, maybe zhorogo), but here against the background of some water, where the temperature is rarely more than +25 degrees C ...
    but there is not .... "there is no such difference"
    don't like IR, get laser
    [media=https://youtube.com/shorts/GngE2wTqAuw?feature=share]
  16. +4
    20 June 2023 12: 33
    And who said that Mykola-5 would not be the carrier of a full-fledged torpedo that delivered it to the launch range? I don't want to rant, but...
    1. 0
      20 June 2023 17: 25
      It can be easier to attach a semi-submersible float with a motor-generator and a supply of fuel, a snorkel with a communication system and a camera, and torpedo engines to the torpedo. Some difficulties with guiding a torpedo are solvable after a reset. A variant of a mine-torpedo, when the carrier drops a torpedo on the ground in the area of ​​​​the passage of ships in the standby mode and search for a target. Yes, and dropping from an aircraft with a planning unit and parachute braking is quite possible.
      1. +1
        21 June 2023 10: 37
        Quote from ustsv
        A variant of a mine-torpedo, when the carrier drops a torpedo on the ground in the area of ​​​​the passage of ships in the standby mode and search for a target.

        And so we smoothly came to the good old jet-pop-up mine. smile
        Or to an anchor mine with a homing torpedo as a striking element (something like "Kaptor").
  17. 0
    20 June 2023 12: 51
    IMHO, there are two things.
    On the one hand, it is relatively easy to strengthen the defense with near-light machine guns.
    develop a methodology for the main caliber - canister shells.
    reinforce universal air defense again.

    On the other hand, the method of attacking with similar forces in the 20th century is a massive attack under the cover of smoke, reb weapons and possibly blinding weapons.
    Yes, until they figured out how to drag and launch missiles or torpedoes close to such a boat. But the idea is simple.
    How then to act?
  18. 0
    20 June 2023 15: 11
    By the way, "Berezhok" would be chic

    This is not a pedestal with a machine gun, the vertical aiming angles in this case lead to a large dead zone.
    AK in caliber 57-76 with air blast shells or RBU
  19. 0
    20 June 2023 15: 33
    at WHAT exit from the straits was the crunch attacked?)))))))))))))
  20. +1
    20 June 2023 16: 22
    Of course it's not stupid. There is a 30-mm six-barreled machine gun, but it is very heavy. Besides, it's expensive. In the Second World War, ours used 12,7 mm DShK anti-aircraft machine guns, a worthwhile thing. My 18-year-old aunt at that time in 1944, as part of the calculation, filled up the Yu-88, I remember how, as a small child, I proudly held the medal For Courage in my hands. It was a single variant. And then 4x12,7 mm appeared, this is generally trash. Sighting range - more than 2 km, the rate of fire is excellent. Not expensive, not heavy, effective. Put 1 on each side. But we will still encounter drones, the 404th can only afford them. And river armored boats. But the latter will not trample in the sea, they will drown.
    1. +1
      21 June 2023 10: 47
      Quote: Glagol1
      There is a 30-mm six-barreled machine gun, but it is very heavy.

      A little more than one ton in the AK-306 variant. He would also have a normal SUAO ...
      Quote: Glagol1
      And then 4x12,7 mm appeared, this is generally trash.

      Uh-huh ... only a bourgeois death - because 12,7 x 4 is for the most part either "Vickers" or "Browning". Well, either the Czech quadruple DShKM.
      Of the four-barreled ZPUs, we had ZPU-4 under 14,5 KPV.
      Quote: Glagol1
      Sighting range - more than 2 km, the rate of fire is excellent. Not expensive, not heavy, effective. Put 1 on each board.

      And sow the sea with bullets. Without stabilization, with manual guidance with handwheels - yes, from a moving ship in a wave.
      Do you want to not only shoot, but also hit? Install a normal remote-controlled module with a machine gun, power drives and a normal ECO. Or MTPU with the simplest "muscle guidance". smile
  21. +1
    20 June 2023 16: 29
    4X12,7, if done with a good vertical tolerance, and could work on air drones. Reach in height of 1,5 km and a little higher.
  22. +2
    20 June 2023 17: 37
    Torpedoes for the poor will be developed, and 2 machine guns, as on Khursa, will not be saved from a flock of such boats.
    Berezhok is a good idea, including the fact that there is also Pturs, with which you can close the far zone.

    I think the Shells with a combination of missiles and cannons will also look good.

    But will unmanned torpedo boats appear. Conditionally unmanned G-5, equipped with a homing torpedo with a range of 5 km. A machine gun will definitely not help here.
  23. +1
    20 June 2023 20: 47
    By the way, "Berezhok" would be great, it has everything, both sights and a stabilizer, it would only be necessary to remove the grenade launcher - and a wonderful module that can find a place on the ship.
    For sailors, land weapons are not suitable, they need to be adapted.
    And so - you can also make a naval ATGM against boats. Only to shoot not directly (the target will not be visible, the waves will close everything), but in an arc
    1. 0
      21 June 2023 13: 58
      Quote: bk0010
      And so - you can also make a naval ATGM against boats. Only to shoot not directly (the target will not be visible, the waves will close everything), but in an arc

      Uh-huh ... and so that the GOS / SU allows you to independently search for a target in the sector along the flight path and, after capturing, aim at it without the participation of an operator.
      In general, a "product 305" with an improved seeker. Or our answer to the sea "Hellfire". smile
  24. 0
    20 June 2023 22: 05
    Mdaaa...! 1. How tired of these "droneloids"! How much can you say that "drone" is a term for a UAV, adopted back in the 30s of the last century!? Well ... "for a bastard" to call this "Mykola" a drone boat, a fireman, a fireship boat, design bureau? Not feng shui?
    2. Where did the author get such a "revelation from above" that a torpedo can only be launched from a torpedo tube or dropped from an aircraft, and therefore the absence of "torpedo bombers" forced the Armed Forces of Ukraine to resort to firewall boats? And what about the "human-controlled torpedoes" of the "Biebers" and other similar WW2 awesomeness that do not require torpedo tubes?
    3. But anti-aircraft guns against "semi-submersible" firewalls and small submarines are not a bad idea, but have long been known! Just don't "small things"! Why do we need machine guns, albeit large-caliber ones? When are there "supercavitational" 30-mm "Swimmer" shells? It can be said that it is an almost universal "weight" for solving a variety of military problems!
  25. +1
    20 June 2023 23: 30
    The author forgot one more remedy against torpedoes and surface drones - this is RBU.
    Yes, and the detection of such drones as well as torpedoes is better for anti-aircraft defense systems.
    Therefore, one of the ways out will be the installation of anti-aircraft defense systems on ships.
    And given the deplorable level of PLO in our fleet, this will not be superfluous at all.
  26. 0
    21 June 2023 01: 32
    "Arbalet-DM" was adopted by the RF Armed Forces in 2017.
    The module can be installed on wheeled and tracked armored vehicles, surface vessels and fixed guard posts. The armament of the module is a 12,7 mm KORD machine gun with 150 rounds of ammunition or a 7,62 mm PKTM machine gun with 250 rounds of ammunition.
    The module can capture and automatically track targets from a standstill and on the move, a television camera allows you to recognize a target at a distance of 2,5 km, thermal imaging - up to 1,5 km. The sighting system is also equipped with a laser rangefinder.


    Remote combat module "Crossbow-DM" is mass-produced by the Degtyarevsky plant in the city of Kovrov.
    Placing an order and installing 2-4 modules on all military and patrol ships and boats is a fairly simple and not very expensive topic, given the small number of Black Sea Fleet combat units.
    As an additional armament for ships to protect against marine drones and torpedoes, rocket launchers (RBU) modified through the use of modern electronic means could become
    In addition to more accurate target designation, it is possible to use "smart" homing munitions of various effects on drones, both damaging and radio-electronic, capable of drowning out control channels or diverting the drone / torpedo away from the protected object.
  27. -1
    21 June 2023 21: 00
    Ivan Khurs must undergo modernization, as I see it: on the bow of the AK-630M, on the stern there are two cliffs on the sides and a pedestal with two MANPADS, so you can resist both surface and air UAVs.
  28. 0
    27 June 2023 19: 55
    And what anti-submarine, anti-torpedo nets have already been canceled?
    Why such difficulties?
    Raise the net half a meter / meter - and all the love. Your drone will burn its motor trying to break through the obstacle with its nose.
    Maybe I don't understand recourse
  29. +1
    29 June 2023 11: 07
    The drone has a conventional gasoline engine, while the torpedo has an electric battery. The speed characteristics are approximately equal, the boat has 60 km / h, the torpedo has 45 knots, which in terms of almost 70 km / h

    Actually over 80. hi
  30. 0
    29 June 2023 11: 17
    By the way, "Berezhok" would be great, it has everything, both sights and a stabilizer, it would only be necessary to remove the grenade launcher - and a wonderful module that can find a place on the ship.

    "Berezhok" may not be necessary, but the remote module from the BTR-82A is quite in place. what
  31. -1
    21 July 2023 13: 27
    Against such a threat, it will be ideal, as it sounds not blasphemous on our site. This is a Javelin. Yes . Yes. It is he. The missile is homing. Against the background of cold water, it can quickly notice and aim at the target. Hits the target with an indirect hit. And from above. Think. Act. The waves are not a hindrance. Several automatic launchers on the sides. And there will be happiness. Fight off such a threat. True, a third-generation ATGM missile needs to be made. To start.
  32. 0
    29 July 2023 13: 50
    machine guns on towers with remote control have long been implemented in tank troops. The modules are operational, not requiring much effort for rework, etc. Installing them on ships will not be a big effort.
    1. 0
      19 November 2023 11: 56
      An unmanned boat is just the beginning, the berries will come when a drone with a snorkel and a satellite dish on it appears, and we need to think about how to deal with them now. The detection range of a snorkel using a radar installed on a ship is an order of magnitude less than that of a surface boat, and the remaining few kilometers to the target the drone can travel on batteries like a classic torpedo without the use of a snorkel
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