Versus. Ka-52 versus Mi-28N: an unexpected final conclusion

198

A little even somehow sluggishly, but for ten years there was a discussion on the Web of two attack helicopters that were in service with the Russian army. We are talking about the Mi-28N "Night Hunter" and the Ka-52 "Alligator". The machines are both similar and completely different.

There is no point in arranging another comparison of LTH figures; many people have done this before us. However, it makes sense to walk, because this is the only way to draw certain conclusions on which of the cars is better and why. Or not to draw these conclusions. However, first things first.



Not so long ago we talked about these machines separately, so it's not worth repeating.
Ka-52. Ruinous perfection
Attack helicopter Mi-28N: try to criticize

Engines, propellers and more



The engines of the Klimov helicopters, VK-2500, are completely identical.


True, in the Mi-28N part of the energy is spent on the rotation of the tail rotor, but this is not critical, and the Ka-52 has a real advantage at high (by helicopter standards) altitudes. If translated into figures of the maximum working height, then the Ka-52 can climb 500 meters higher. Another question - is it necessary?

Helicopter pilots who have flown both machines say that the Mi-28N is lighter and easier to fly. Another issue is that it is difficult to imagine in general an apparatus that is more difficult to control than a combat helicopter.


The Ka-52 is shorter, the Mi-28 has a smaller vertical profile. When entering the vortex ring mode, the Mi-28N demonstrates greater stability, but, unlike the Ka-52, it does not like side wind when landing and hovering, especially from the right side.


The Ka-52 has its own huge drawback: with very sharp maneuvers, an overlap of the blades can occur, which leads to disaster. This happened in practice and even ended in the death of pilots.

Plus, the coaxial layout of the propellers of the Kamov machine is a perfectly balanced aerodynamic system, and damage to even one blade leads to the failure of the machine, followed by an accident or disaster. And two screws quite obviously double the chance of damage to the screws from air defense.


Mi-28N inherited amazing survivability from its ancestor Mi-24. In Afghanistan and Chechnya, Mi-24s flew to the base and landed even with a completely lost propeller blade. But the Ka-52 has an ejection crew rescue system, which is very, very useful. However, we talked about rescue systems in previous articles.

The Mi-28N is more powerfully armored than the Ka-52, but the Kamov machine is definitely more maneuverable. For the Ka-52, they chose the layout of the crew members side by side, in the Mi-28N the pilot and operator sit one after another. Being nearby, pilots can interact better, especially in combat when the radio channels are overloaded, but the Mi-28N has better side visibility.

In addition, the Ka-52 kit includes the Vitebsk complex, which monitors missile launches and activates systems that make it difficult to hit a helicopter: interference, heat traps, and so on.

We will talk about helicopter guidance systems at the very end, since they contain one “highlight”, which determines the use of helicopters in the way it is happening today.

weaponry



Gun 2A42 caliber 30 mm.


The firing range is about 4 km. But on the Mi-28N it is in the bow, rotates 220 degrees to the left and right. Ammunition only 250 shells. In the Ka-52, the gun is located near the center of mass, respectively, it shoots more accurately, but guidance causes problems, the gun is not only deviated from the longitudinal axis of the helicopter, it is pointed up and down by 12 degrees and to the right by 30. To shoot at targets on the left, you have to turn helicopter. But the ammunition load is 460 shells.


The missile armament is almost the same, but the Ka-52 has more hardpoints, 6 nodes allow you to carry up to 2000 kg of weapons, and 4 nodes of the Mi-28N - 1600 kg.

In principle, the set of weapons is similar, but the main strike force of the Mi-28N is still outdated Ataka ATGMs with a launch range of up to 6 km. The Ka-52 is armed with the Whirlwind ATGM, which can operate at a distance of up to 10 km. However, "Attack" has radio command guidance, which gives the enemy less chance to close than "Whirlwind", which is guided by a laser beam.

Mi-28 can take 16 "Attacks", Ka-52 takes 12 "Whirlwinds".

In addition, the Ka-52's standard armament includes Igla-V or Igla-S air-to-air missiles, which makes the helicopter protected from air attacks.

Guidance and observation



Here, in my opinion, the two helicopters have the most differences. The Ka-52 with its Argument-2000 sighting and flight navigation system is utterly good.

"Argument-2000" for the Ka-52 is:
- on-board digital computer (BTsVM) "Baguet-53";
- flight and navigation complex PNK-73DM;
- round-the-clock surveillance and flight system TOES-520;
- round-the-clock search and sighting system GOES-451 (connected to the Arbalet radar);
- radar complex "Crossbow";
- airborne communication complex BKS-50;
- airborne defense complex "Vitebsk";
- avionics with the use of MFD and helmet-mounted target designation and indication systems (NSCI);
- dual control of the complex, the same for both crew members, grouped on their helicopter controls.

Versus. Ka-52 versus Mi-28N: an unexpected final conclusion

Mi-28N:
- computer system based on the computer "Baget-53";
- navigation equipment as part of the high-precision INS-2000 and the SBKV-2V-2 strapless heading system, satellite navigation system, long-range navigation radio system;
- detection system for radio-electronic and laser irradiation and UV direction finder L-150-28;
- automatic control system (ACS);
- control system weapons;
- helmet-mounted target designation and indication system;
- surveillance and sighting station for detecting and recognizing objects, aiming, capturing and auto-tracking objects via television and thermal imaging channels.
- observation and flight system of a pilot with night vision goggles, designed for round-the-clock survey of the area, search and detection of objects (landmarks and obstacles).
- television channel, thermal imaging channel, laser range finder;
- helicopter aerobatic complex;
- on-board communication complex KSS-28N-1, which allows you to exchange data with other helicopters and ground control points.
- thermal television complex "Okhotnik", which converts images received via optical and thermal imaging channels into a single background image of the target under any weather conditions and at any time of the day. The complex allows you to automatically detect, capture and track targets up to processing.

The difference is visible. The Ka-52 has more modern and compact equipment, but the Mi-28 set is more sophisticated and allows you to receive intelligence in a visual form convenient for the operator and transmit it in a timely manner to operators of other helicopters or other enemy weapons.


In addition, the Ka-52's Arbalet radar is installed in the bow, that is, the helicopter basically "looks" ahead. On the latest models of the Mi-28N, the Arbalet was installed in the over-bush version, and on the Mi-28NM modification, a new H025 radar is installed at the top.

The over-sleeve placement of the radar allows not only to “look” at 360 degrees, but also “peep out” from behind shelters for a short time, analyze the situation and strike, appearing from behind the shelter just enough to simply launch missiles.

Feature of application



From the numerous shots coming from Ukraine, it is increasingly possible to see that helicopters are working in pairs. It is the combination of Mi-28N + Ka-52 that turns out to be very effective.

After watching a sufficient number of videos, we can conclude about the use of helicopters as follows: the Mi-28N usually flies first, playing the role of a reconnaissance gunner. And behind him at a short distance is the Ka-52.

Quite logical, since the Mi-28N has better armor and detection systems. In addition, the Mi-28N cannon provides a larger angle of fire without changing course and reducing speed. Therefore, the Mi-28N plays the role of a reconnaissance aircraft, providing the crew of the Ka-52 with data on targets. And he starts working on the goal first. And the Ka-52 plays the role of covering, including from the air, and delivers the final blow with its impressive set of weapons.


I am sure that helicopters work in exactly the same way at night, hunting for Tanks and other armored vehicles of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. The Mi-28N detects targets with its set of equipment, after which, according to its data, the quieter Ka-52 carries out a local Armageddon for armored vehicles.

As a result, we can say that the helicopters are almost equal. Neither has advantages over the other, and if it does in some way, these advantages are offset by other factors. By and large, until the new Ka-60, which should carry out reconnaissance functions, went into production, two helicopters, different and similar, are a very balanced pair.

One (Mi-28N) is more loaded with search and information exchange equipment, the second (Ka-52) has more weapons on board, which can be effectively used from a greater distance.

So while there are talks and comparisons, in fact, a very effective pair of Mi-28N and Ka-52 is successfully working on a wide variety of targets in Ukraine. Complementing and helping each other.

More than once, the thesis that balance is better than any remarkable properties and characteristics has already arisen. In our case, we got an efficient and balanced system. Given that the Mi-28NM and Ka-52M with reinforced armor, more modern radars, and more powerful engines will soon go into production, the pair will be further developed.

And in the future, perhaps, flight exercises for combat coordination of these helicopters will appear in the training programs of the Aerospace Forces.
198 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +47
    31 March 2022 04: 41
    I liked it.
    My opinion: if
    It is the combination of Mi-28N + Ka-52 that turns out to be very effective.

    Then subsequent upgrades of both machines should minimize their shortcomings, which will allow this bundle to achieve maximum efficiency ...
    1. +23
      31 March 2022 05: 15
      a very effective pair of Mi-28N and Ka-52 successfully works for a wide variety of purposes
      In short, they complement each other! Well, both are good in their own way!
      1. 0
        15 July 2022 15: 24
        Mi-28 is a night hunter, cannot fight at night, pilots call night glasses "death to pilots", the commander-in-chief of the air force and now a senator smashed it to smithereens: - Why did the Russian leadership call the Mi-28N a failed helicopter?
        Harsh criticism of the manufacturers of Russian helicopters was heard from the mouth of not just anyone, but the former commander-in-chief of the VKS, now the head of the Senate defense committee. “The pilot doesn’t see anything, the pilot doesn’t hear anything,” Victor Bondarev describes problems with the avionics of the Mi-28 helicopter. And this seems to be just the tip of the iceberg. The problem concerns not only combat helicopters.
        Again a blood clot - from tracers and cannon fire, explosions and shooting on the battlefield in these glasses, as you look at welding, the pilots say, then your eyes hurt terribly and you don’t see or understand anything in battle.

        The head of the Senate Committee on Defense and Security, former commander-in-chief of the VKS, Viktor Bondarev, said that the Russian “defense industry” had corrected a number of flaws in the Mi-28 “Night Hunter” helicopter, but the electronics remained “disastrous” there.

        “The pilot does not see anything, the pilot does not hear anything. These glasses, which are worn by pilots, are called "death to pilots". The sky is cloudless - everything is fine, and if there is a smoke, three days with red eyes go, ”Bondarev said. He spoke about this at a meeting on legislatively ensuring the work of the defense-industrial complex. According to the ex-commander-in-chief, the Ministry of Defense does not sufficiently finance design developments.
    2. +5
      31 March 2022 06: 16
      Quote: ROSS 42
      subsequent upgrades of both machines should minimize their shortcomings,

      So it is Here is what they wrote in 2021 Modernized anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM) "Vikhr-1" will be part of the armament of the Mi-28N ("Night Hunter") attack helicopter manufactured by the Rostov plant "Rostvertol". This was reported to TASS by a source in the military-industrial complex.https://xn--b1aga5aadd.xn--p1ai/2021/380667/
    3. +27
      31 March 2022 06: 39
      Even more effective would be a pair of machines of the same type, in which the disadvantages of both types would be eliminated and the advantages would be summarized. And not only in combat, but also in operation.
      1. +9
        31 March 2022 10: 39
        Quote from yahontovyi
        Even more effective would be a pair of machines of the same type, in which the disadvantages of both types would be eliminated and the advantages would be summarized. And not only in combat, but also in operation.

        For all the good, against all the bad. Hey young man! bully
        1. 0
          April 2 2022 09: 07
          Quote: Mavrikiy
          Quote from yahontovyi
          Even more effective would be a pair of machines of the same type, in which the disadvantages of both types would be eliminated and the advantages would be summarized. And not only in combat, but also in operation.

          For all the good, against all the bad. Hey young man! bully

          Ahah, I was just about to write the same thing and saw your comment good drinks
          1. 0
            9 June 2022 18: 28
            A sparrow can fly, but can they crawl to throw a bottle under tanks, that's what some who know about priorities need.
      2. +5
        31 March 2022 12: 13
        Quote from yahontovyi
        Even more effective would be a pair of machines of the same type, in which the disadvantages of both types would be eliminated and the advantages would be summarized. And not only in combat, but also in operation.


        It is only necessary to understand that the irreparable shortcoming of one becomes the shortcoming of everyone in the group.
        And don't forget about it.
        1. +1
          16 May 2022 02: 20
          Far from a fact. The disadvantage can be stopped by the dignity of the second. A group of narrow specialists, in my experience, is more effective than a group of generalists.
    4. +26
      31 March 2022 06: 52
      Quote: ROSS 42
      Then subsequent upgrades of both machines should minimize their shortcomings, which will allow this bundle to achieve maximum efficiency ...

      recourse Not unequivocally. Rather, the bundle will be able to achieve maximum efficiency by strengthening the strengths of the machines. recourse For minimizing their shortcomings will turn them into each other. feel
      1. +9
        31 March 2022 07: 23
        Quote: Mavrikiy
        .Rather, to achieve maximum efficiency, the bundle will be able to strengthen the strengths of the machines. For minimizing their shortcomings will turn them into each other.

        Absolutely correct remark.
        Balanced vehicles do not have the advantages due to which machines can complement each other.
      2. 0
        31 March 2022 08: 12
        Quote: Mavrikiy
        Not unequivocally. Rather, the bundle will be able to achieve maximum efficiency by strengthening the strengths of the machines. For minimizing their shortcomings will turn them into each other.

        There is no need to turn them into each other. It is necessary to compensate for the shortcomings of one with the merits of the other ... This is what the bunch of the couple shows ...
        Strengthening strengths is possible, you just need to pay attention to:

        1. +8
          31 March 2022 13: 21
          Already invented and partly tested.

        2. +4
          31 March 2022 22: 47
          When creating the Mi-28, such an arrangement was also considered

          http://www.airwar.ru/enc/ah/mi28.html
          And about the comparative tests of the Mi-28 and Ka-50 on the "Corner of the Sky" they write the following
    5. +22
      31 March 2022 07: 03
      Apparently the author is not too well versed in the topic.
      1. +4
        31 March 2022 08: 23
        There is a feeling that the author was generally brought ...
      2. +7
        31 March 2022 10: 01
        In order to write different nonsense, it is not necessary to know!
      3. 0
        April 1 2022 04: 18
        Apparently the author is not too well versed in the topic.


        Well, why, the article is good for those who are not in the subject, generally cognitive for schoolchildren, for example, but for "rolls grated here" laughing and especially specialists, everything is too superficial, like an essay for grade 10.
    6. +1
      April 1 2022 17: 16
      And the author did not mention such an advantage of the coaxial scheme as the absence of a tail boom, that is, if it is hit, a classic helicopter will inevitably crash, but coaxial machines may well continue flying .. Here is a video of the Mi-28 defeat .. It is stated that the pilots are alive ..
  2. +7
    31 March 2022 05: 09
    I don’t know how it is now, in the 90s flights of mixed pairs of Mi-8 + Mi-24 were banned. Therefore, if interaction was necessary, 2 pairs (2 Mi-8 + 2 Mi-24) were used.
    1. +18
      31 March 2022 05: 30
      And now, only as an exception are allowed. Unfortunately, I don’t know where this “moment” list came from by the Author.
      I have different information, the Ka-52 groups go first, as more secure and with perfect means of vehicle control. Vitebsk and the crossbow over the crossbow are a more decisive factor + the possibility of ejection.
      The described ability of "survivability" is more shady than the continuity of the Mi-28 and Mi-24, in principle, made me scratch my head.
      1. +29
        31 March 2022 05: 42
        There was a video showing how the KA-52 was hit 18 times during the attack (the best advertisement) and the pilots managed to land the damaged car ... the survivability and maneuverability of the car is impressive ... such a car is perfect for an attacking battle.
        1. +14
          31 March 2022 10: 54
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          There was a video showing how the KA-52 was hit 18 times during the attack (the best advertisement) and the pilots managed to land the damaged car ... the survivability and maneuverability of the car is impressive ... such a car is perfect for an attacking battle.

          How much I read about these two helicopters, I always came to the same opinion: the KA-50Sh is a breakthrough into the future, and the MI-28N is just another good helicopter from Mil Design Bureau ...
      2. +36
        31 March 2022 08: 28
        Duc and on the video absolutely the opposite of the author is happening first, the KA-52, followed by the MI-28 and only in the daytime, there are no shots of using the MI-28 at night .. The overlap of the blades is possible at such angles of attack that the classics never dreamed of, and for long before reaching these, the classic propeller cuts the tail boom for the same reasons, the same nonsense and about the difficult controllability of the coaxer, everything is exactly the opposite .. In general, the author is either incompetent or everything is much sadder ..
        1. +3
          April 1 2022 12: 12
          The author apparently joked about the visibility of the Mi-28. The location of the glass and chubby cheeks directly speak of "better" visibility. The fact that the pilots of the Ka-52 sit side by side and like this reduces visibility, yes, but that’s why there are two of them, so that you can look around in 4 eyes. About the gun is also a joke, what's the point in the angles of rotation and inclination, when the accuracy is like that of a drunk after urinating when urinating? In general, the Ka-52 is a weapon of war, and the Mi-28 is just a good car, but it’s not a fact that the old Mi-24 is better in combat use
    2. +1
      31 March 2022 05: 49
      This I mean that different types of machines with different optimal modes, different (albeit similar) capabilities can hardly be effectively used as part of one tactical unit (pair). They can interact, but only interact as part of their tactical groups.
    3. 0
      April 1 2022 16: 40
      I read somewhere that the ka-50 in the eighties was thinking about external target designation using the Ka-37 and Ka-137 drones, which were built even in the nineties but were not used for their intended purpose, and the ka-52 is a simplified version, and the original idea with drones and one crew member more and more promising and more efficient and better
  3. +31
    31 March 2022 05: 16
    "The Ka-52's gun is located near the center of mass, respectively, it shoots more accurately, but guidance causes problems,"

    Nonsense.
    The pilots say that the ka52 shoots much more accurately from a cannon.
    This is due to the cunning design of the carriage. And the mi28 is very sausage from the recoil after the first shot. In addition, the ka52 easily performs the "funnel".
    1. +10
      31 March 2022 08: 30
      4.2 times in comparison with the MI-28, due to the location in the center of mass and hydraulic drives, the accuracy reaches ..
    2. +5
      31 March 2022 09: 05
      Well, this is how smart people did it, they understood that they would shoot either strictly along the course, or from hovering, when the car, which in itself is very stable in hovering, can be very easily turned. And they did not reproduce this meaningless turret with wild turning angles from the Mi-24, as they did on the Mi-28. On the fly, you can still shoot from it only along the course.
      1. -11
        31 March 2022 10: 13
        All troubles are from the mind. This is how the Ka-52 can shoot itself. There was an article on this topic. Let me remind you that such an arrangement of the gun "has no analogue in the world"
        1. +14
          31 March 2022 10: 38
          A malfunction in the gun control system, as we see, did not lead to anything fatal.
          What, only the Ka-52 has breakdowns?
        2. +10
          31 March 2022 10: 39
          Most likely installation and configuration shoals .. that is, the human factor, and not a designer's mistake ..
      2. -9
        31 March 2022 12: 17
        Quote: EvilLion
        Well, this is how smart people did it, they understood that they would shoot either strictly along the course, or from hovering, when the car, which in itself is very stable in hovering, can be very easily turned. And they did not reproduce this meaningless turret with wild turning angles from the Mi-24, as they did on the Mi-28. On the fly, you can still shoot from it only along the course.


        Why does the same Apache know how to perfectly shoot "off course" and his turret is not meaningless?
        Maybe just because everything was calculated better there?
        1. +6
          31 March 2022 13: 40
          Well, he also has a much weaker gun
          1. -5
            31 March 2022 14: 03
            Quote: NOMADE
            Well, he also has a much weaker gun


            But it does work.
            Does it make sense to put weapons more powerful if it limits you in 95% of cases?
            1. +1
              31 March 2022 19: 30
              In the competition with the Ka-50, it was necessary to offer a gun of no less power
              1. +2
                31 March 2022 21: 13
                Quote: KERMET
                In the competition with the Ka-50, it was necessary to offer a gun of no less power


                As a result, we got half a less functional ersatz, but powerful.
                1. +1
                  April 1 2022 00: 38
                  Milevtsy got it, Kamovtsy's cannon is all right. The task for TTZ was to surpass Apache - a smaller caliber would not have rolled, just as it had not rolled with the Milevites
                  1. +1
                    April 1 2022 01: 21
                    I wonder why they didn’t put a 2A42 cannon on helicopters instead of 2A72?
                    Although its accuracy is lower, it is lighter (84kg versus 115 for 2A42) and its recoil is three times lower.
                    1. 0
                      April 1 2022 14: 36
                      At the time of the creation of the Ka-50 2A72, as I understand it, there were no problems with the mass and recoil of the Ka-50 with 2A42, but the Milevites could look at it, but does the accuracy spoil everything?
            2. +1
              31 March 2022 22: 28
              The meaning is hidden in the history of the emergence of this or decision. In this case, first of all, in the tactical and technical specifications for the new machine, it was especially emphasized that the helicopter should be superior to foreign counterparts. Secondly, the Milevtsy initially intended to use a 30-mm gun (it was just such a gun that was installed on the first model of the new helicopter), they also did not invent a location - many developments were transferred from the Mi-23.
              But the competitors (Kamovites) set a completely different bar. Putting a smaller caliber is another trump card for a competitor in the competitive struggle.
        2. +11
          31 March 2022 13: 57
          "Apache" low ballistics gun 30x110 s 800m/s
          The KA-52\Mi-28 has a 30x165 high-ballistic gun with 960 m/s
          Accordingly, Apache has lower recoil and accuracy. soldier
          1. -6
            31 March 2022 14: 28
            Quote: Protos
            "Apache" low ballistics gun 30x110 s 800m/s
            The KA-52\Mi-28 has a 30x165 high-ballistic gun with 960 m/s
            Accordingly, Apache has lower recoil and accuracy. soldier


            Well, the Mi-28 is 3 tons heavier ...
            It seems that it would be possible to more successfully design a suspension, a shoulder to the center of mass, in order to compensate for the greater return?

            And the most important thing.
            The M789 HEDP projectile fired from the M230 and the 3UBR6/8 projectile fired from the 2a42 have the same penetration. 20-25mm armor.
            And in fact, those targets that came under fire are completely on the drum, with which gun and with which shells they are fired at.
            A little more precise, or a little faster.
            All the same, an automatic gun will give a more than sufficient probability of hitting a target. And the hit of at least one projectile on the LBT is an almost guaranteed decommissioning of this LBT.
            But only with a competent weight distribution, a minimum of recoil, more hits occur with fewer shots.
            It’s one thing to shoot at a training ground on a rigidly fixed frame, it’s another thing in the air.
            And the angles of shelling targets, namely high-quality, targeted shelling, are much more important than the speed of the projectile.
            1. +2
              31 March 2022 22: 39
              Quote: SovAr238A
              And the most important thing.
              The M789 HEDP projectile fired from the M230 and the 3UBR6/8 projectile fired from the 2a42 have the same penetration. 20-25mm armor

              Everything, as always, is in the details. According to the TTZ, a high cost / efficiency indicator was prescribed for new helicopters
              At that time, the 2A42 was a cannon already mastered by the army - it uses regular ammunition, and the M230 is a gun specially designed for a helicopter, besides, the M789 HEDP, as far as I know, is a cumulative projectile, which means it’s more expensive to love.
              For the same 2A42 cannon, the Belgians developed a projectile with almost twice as much armor penetration, it's all about the price.
              1. -1
                31 March 2022 23: 01
                Quote: KERMET
                Quote: SovAr238A
                And the most important thing.
                The M789 HEDP projectile fired from the M230 and the 3UBR6/8 projectile fired from the 2a42 have the same penetration. 20-25mm armor

                Everything, as always, is in the details. According to the TTZ, a high cost / efficiency indicator was prescribed for new helicopters
                At that time, the 2A42 was a cannon already mastered by the army - it uses regular ammunition, and the M230 is a gun specially designed for a helicopter, besides, the M789 HEDP, as far as I know, is a cumulative projectile, which means it’s more expensive to love.
                For the same 2A42 cannon, the Belgians developed a projectile with almost twice as much armor penetration, it's all about the price.


                There is such a text on the Internet.
                Despite the planned unification, the various requirements put forward by the types of aircraft to their own 30-mm systems eventually led to the fact that the SV, Navy and Air Force cartridges are not interchangeable.
                According to the history of development, unification is as good in theory as it is bad in practice. As a result of the decision taken by the Armaments Department of the Ministry of Defense to create a single cartridge, the power of the land cartridge turned out to be significantly underestimated (by restrictions on the length of the sleeve, the mass of the propellant charge, the estimated pressure of the shot), as a result, the cartridge is noticeably inferior in ballistics to the standard NATO land cartridge 30 × 173 mm. (With the newly developed BPS 3UBR11, this problem has been mitigated, although the literal TTX still has a small performance gap) On the contrary, for arming helicopters, the cartridge turned out to be overweight (relative to the cartridge of the M230 system common in NATO), like the 2A42 land gun itself, the consequence is much times smaller transportable ammunition, although 30 × 113 mm shells have a lower mass, explosive filling and fragmentation effect compared to 30 × 165 mm
                1. +6
                  April 1 2022 00: 34
                  Yep, Wikipedia has it...
                  But the text does not negate the fact that the unification of the ammunition between the battlefield vehicles (BMP and Ka-50, Mi-28) for the 2A42 gun is complete. The gun performed well in dusty and smoky conditions (this is a plus for low-altitude use). And helicopter designers needed to proceed from what had already been adopted in service (if they demanded a new gun specifically for their helicopter, and even a new cartridge to be released for it ... - this would have ended their participation in the competition)
                  1. -2
                    April 1 2022 11: 45
                    Quote: KERMET
                    And helicopter designers needed to proceed from what had already been adopted in service (if they demanded a new gun specifically for their helicopter, and even a new cartridge to be released for it ... - this would have ended their participation in the competition)


                    That is, we again step on our own rake ...
                    We deliberately worsen our own complex combat characteristics, if only not to fly past the competition.

                    And what about the real combat use - all bullshit.
                    The main thing to do is that you don’t have to fight yourself ...
                    And no responsibility.
                    Another eyewash and cut at any cost.
                    1. +2
                      April 1 2022 15: 45
                      War is an economy, and even under ideal conditions (no corruption, etc.), designers have to listen to the military (they give tasks for what they want), the military has to listen to industrialists (they say what they can do and what not and in how much it will cost financially) Military equipment is a complete compromise
                  2. -1
                    April 6 2022 10: 20
                    For SovAr238A (Al-Actually, the 2A42 has a high rate of fire of up to 500 rds / min. Which is important for firing at air targets. And it was created on the basis of the GSh aircraft gun. So hitting the unification of 30-mm cartridges in the USSR means not knowing the subject .
            2. -1
              April 1 2022 10: 11
              There is a video of the execution of one piece of the Grad MLRS, about six shots missed, one hit. You can see how the shells fall one after another. I don't know who fired. Normal shi is accuracy?
          2. 0
            31 March 2022 19: 53
            But Apache has much more ammunition - 1200 shells, they do not save shells, they pour dushmans like from a hose.
            1. +1
              31 March 2022 20: 54
              Quote: Mikhailov V.B.
              But Apache has much more ammunition - 1200 shells, they do not save shells, they pour dushmans like from a hose.

              It seems to have been on the first versions, now they have reduced the ammunition to 500 shells (which is still twice as much as on ours), and the released volume was given for additional electronics.
            2. +1
              April 1 2022 12: 53
              The key word is "Dushmanov" .. The Ukrainian army is not a dushman in any way .. And yes, we didn’t supply MANPADS to dushmans, but the United States of Ukraine is very much ...
              1. -2
                April 1 2022 17: 00
                Quote: max702
                The key word is "Dushmanov" .. The Ukrainian army is not a dushman in any way .. And yes, we didn’t supply MANPADS to dushmans, but the United States of Ukraine is very much ...

                They didn’t deliver in Vietnam ... Yes, almost all the countries with which the United States fought used our weapons and our instructors and intelligence data and our mercenaries were
                1. +1
                  April 1 2022 17: 10
                  We seem to be specifically talking about dushmans and 404th .. And what is there and when, then we will discuss.
                2. The comment was deleted.
          3. +1
            April 1 2022 00: 37
            Do not write nonsense about low ballistics and accuracy.
        3. The comment was deleted.
        4. 0
          31 March 2022 15: 33
          Maybe because it shoots from a hover. And good luck on the move.
          1. +2
            31 March 2022 21: 09
            Quote: EvilLion
            Maybe because it shoots from a hover. And good luck on the move.


            Haven't you seen this video?

            But this must have been seen by everyone who is interested in the topic ...

            or is it this?


            Maybe you shouldn't deny the facts?
            Just because these are other people's facts, and not ours?
        5. +1
          31 March 2022 22: 16
          You are mistaken, the accuracy of the Apache firing from the turret is the weak point of this helicopter.
          1. 0
            31 March 2022 23: 02
            Quote: Torins
            You are mistaken, the accuracy of the Apache firing from the turret is the weak point of this helicopter.


            bad accuracy?
            https://youtu.be/_Os5CmHRCuE
        6. 0
          1 May 2022 09: 27
          the Apache shoots, but I haven’t heard anywhere that it’s just fine. Probably because he has a large ammunition. To compensate for the low accuracy, the ability to naughty without saving.
        7. 0
          16 May 2022 02: 32
          the same Apache can
          I remembered a joke about an elderly sexual giant - "... but my neighbor says ... ... well, you say so too"
      3. 0
        April 1 2022 17: 29
        there were no turrets on the mi24p. the gun is generally rigidly fixed.
  4. +2
    31 March 2022 06: 01
    Everything is simple, ideal and universal does not happen! Loners are in Hollywood, strength is in the team!
  5. +3
    31 March 2022 06: 04
    In general, nothing new. How many years these devices have been compared, so much this conclusion exists
  6. +3
    31 March 2022 06: 35
    it is possible that flight exercises for combat coordination of these helicopters will appear in the training programs of the Aerospace Forces
    From which it follows that the described scheme of work is pure improvisation.
  7. +3
    31 March 2022 08: 11
    The active use of the Ka-52 and Mi-28 in a special operation is a good practice for combat coordination. Theory, simulations and training sorties still can't replace real combat.
    Just like in Afghanistan and Syria, shortcomings and weaknesses are revealed. Tactics are being adjusted.
    If possible, the military-industrial complex promptly modernizes.
    Our Air Force will be stronger and more combat-ready.
    And last but not least - international advertising of our technology. Many customers will have no doubts that it is worth choosing from what is offered on the market. Proven, proven in practice is always more attractive than paper advertising, even the most beautiful.
  8. +19
    31 March 2022 08: 17
    As for the fact that helicopter pilots say that it is easier to fly the 28th ... Maybe for those who have previously flown Mil aircraft? Because I've heard the opposite.
    As for the overlap of the blades - if the Mi-28 tried to enter a similar mode in which this happens, then it would most likely cut off its tail boom. As for damage to the blades - both machines allow them to be shot through, but if the blade is completely lost .... Does Mi have a screw that is not balanced and he won’t notice it?.....
    And about the bundle - two different helicopters in service is an additional burden (expenses) for all logistics.
    Best link: group
    Ka-50 and Ka-52 as a command.
    1. +1
      31 March 2022 08: 31
      And KB MIL then what to close?
      1. +9
        31 March 2022 08: 49
        Quote: max702
        And KB MIL then what to close?

        They can focus on transport vehicles. But the Mi-24 has another not mentioned, but useful option, like the presence of a small cabin for the evacuation of downed crews.
        1. +2
          31 March 2022 08: 55
          The pennies there are completely different.
        2. -4
          31 March 2022 09: 30
          Quote: musketone64
          But the Mi-24 has another not mentioned, but useful option, like the presence of a small cabin for the evacuation of downed crews.

          No need to drag in an unnecessary volume here, inherited from the "parent" MI-8
          1. +2
            31 March 2022 12: 28
            No need to drag in an unnecessary volume here, inherited from the "parent" MI-8

            I made an unfortunate typo. feel I meant Mi-28. There is a capacity for 2-3 people. just to sit down and pick up comrades from a downed helicopter.
            1. +1
              31 March 2022 18: 33
              Quote: musketone64
              I made an unfortunate typo. I meant Mi-28. There is a capacity for 2-3 people. just to sit down and pick up comrades from a downed helicopter.

              No. Mi-24, 35 have a landing compartment for 4 seats. The Mi-28 is finally deprived of this option.
              1. +3
                31 March 2022 18: 51
                As for the Mi-28, I may have missed something, but I know for sure that the Mi-24 accommodates a paratrooper squad of 8 people. Since it was originally conceived as a "flying infantry fighting vehicle".
                1. 0
                  31 March 2022 20: 11
                  Quote: musketone64
                  As for the Mi-28, I may have missed something, but I know for sure that the Mi-24 accommodates a paratrooper squad of 8 people.

                  Yes, up to 8 hi
                  1. +3
                    31 March 2022 23: 26
                    Quote: musketone64
                    I meant Mi-28. There is a capacity for 2-3 people. just to sit down and pick up comrades from a downed helicopter.

                    Quote: Adrey
                    No. Mi-24, 35 have a landing compartment for 4 seats. Mi-28 is finally deprived of this option

                    There is such an option
                    .... The rear compartment of the radio equipment has quite roomy free volumes, allowing it to be used as a cargo (for transporting airfield equipment when relocating a helicopter or evacuating the crew of another helicopter) ....
                    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-524.html
                    1. IVZ
                      0
                      2 May 2022 11: 38
                      The capacity of this compartment is 2 people, although 3 people were originally declared. But to use it, you need to turn off the left engine.
              2. +7
                31 March 2022 20: 38
                28 also has a small department. Chel is right.
                1. +1
                  31 March 2022 20: 46
                  Quote: Dost
                  28 also has a small department. Chel is right.

                  Maybe. I won't argue hi
                2. +3
                  31 March 2022 21: 12
                  There is a small "box" full of all sorts of aggregates. In general, something like a "toilet" on a Su-34, not quite what the people imagine.
                  1. +2
                    31 March 2022 22: 08
                    Well, it allows you to evacuate. Remember the film Narmandia-Neman, when the baron was transporting his technician? Here is the same kennel.
                3. 0
                  31 March 2022 22: 43
                  But in the TTZ, a transport cabin was not structurally provided for for the new helicopter - the Milevites apparently stuck it "out of habit"
              3. The comment was deleted.
          2. +3
            31 March 2022 13: 30
            The Mi24 is not at all the heir to the Mi-8; it has a completely different concept.
            Mi-8 was originally transport.
            Mi-24 was originally a "flying infantry fighting vehicle"
            1. -1
              31 March 2022 18: 36
              Quote: kytx
              The Mi24 is not at all the heir to the Mi-8; it has a completely different concept.
              Mi-8 was originally transport.
              Mi-24 was originally a "flying infantry fighting vehicle"

              Google the history of the Mi-24. The first experimental version even had a cockpit layout like a figure-eight, with the pilots landing side-by-side. The base is Mi-8.
              1. +2
                April 1 2022 01: 01
                Quote: Adrey
                The first experimental version even had a cabin layout like a figure eight,
                In the common people "glass"
                ... The Mi-24A transport and combat helicopters were built by the plant in Arseniev for five years. In total, about two and a half hundred of them were released. A number of helicopters were produced in the training version of the Mi-24U (Product 244), which was tested in 1972 and differed from the combat version by the absence of a nose machine gun. Instead, full-fledged control levers and flight and navigation equipment were installed in the front cockpit of the instructor pilot ....

                Ball option and with fenestron
        3. 0
          16 May 2022 02: 39
          the Mi-24 has another not mentioned, but useful option, like the presence of a small cabin for evacuating downed crews

          The cabin of the Mi-24 is not for evacuation, but for the delivery of troops. It is not so small, 8 seats, it seems. But the concept failed, the engines did not pull the mass. And he was just a drummer. A good drummer. The Mi-28, as far as I remember, also has a cabin for 2 people. Here it is for evacuation.
      2. +1
        31 March 2022 09: 28
        Quote: max702
        And KB MIL then what to close?

        For a change, make it really work, and not endlessly use and reuse the well-deserved eight and cut the budget.
        1. -2
          31 March 2022 10: 01
          They followed the path of the MIG Design Bureau when the main thing is connections in the leadership, and not good quality work, because everything can be decided by family and kinship. The result will be the same..
          1. -1
            31 March 2022 10: 16
            Quote: max702
            The result will be the same..

            Result on face request hi
    2. 0
      31 March 2022 08: 36
      I agree with you very much. And about the side wind you need to add. By the way, pilots who flew airplanes are intuitively easier to master "Kamov" machines.
  9. Hog
    +8
    31 March 2022 08: 33
    Well, I don’t know, I constantly see pairs of Ka-52s, sometimes Mi-24s and Mi-28s flash by.
    IMHO: The main load fell on the Ka-52, as more tenacious in combat conditions (Vitebsk, Catapults).
    PS: The Ka-52 was created as a reconnaissance-strike, but the author has the opposite)
  10. +7
    31 March 2022 08: 37
    And you can video where first MI-28 and then KA-52. I've seen exactly the opposite!
    1. +1
      31 March 2022 18: 48
      That's what I'm very interested in! On all videos, the Ka-52 goes first
  11. +13
    31 March 2022 09: 02
    The Ka-52 has its own huge drawback: with very sharp maneuvers, an overlap of the blades can occur, which leads to disaster. This happened in practice and even ended in the death of pilots.

    Plus, the coaxial layout of the propellers of the Kamov machine is a perfectly balanced aerodynamic system, and damage to even one blade leads to the failure of the machine, followed by an accident or disaster. And two screws quite obviously double the chance of damage to the screws from air defense.


    The Ka-52 did not have a single case of overlap. And in general, this phenomenon is very rare, coaxials have been used for a long time, and there were isolated cases. Colonel Vorobyov crashed due to an overlap on the Ka-50 in some very wild maneuvering. At the same time, any helicopter of the classical scheme immediately goes in a spiral to the ground, in the event of a tail rotor failure, and the main oscillations of the blades with blows to the tail boom are no less terrible thing than overshoot. It's just a little easier to drive a coaxial into a vortex ring.

    The probability of hitting the blades depends on the area of ​​​​the blades, and let it be known to the "expert", it is the SAME for machines of equal mass.

    Helicopter pilots who have flown both machines say that the Mi-28N is lighter and easier to fly.


    From the point of view of the principle of helicopter control, this is just nonsense, since the directional stability of a classical helicopter is determined by how much the tail rotor fends off the reactive moment of the main rotor and various random factors, such as wind. Yes, and on the main rotor there is always an asymmetry of lift, because on one side the blade is leading, on the other it is lagging behind. Therefore, a helicopter with a tail rotor will always “float”, it is for this reason that helicopters with a symmetrical carrier scheme (in addition to US co-aligners, there are also Kaman synchropters that occupy just the niche of hanging work) are so popular as flying cranes and when landing on very limited areas with false conditions. If this were not so, and the souska did not give critical bonuses to controllability, then no one would deal with it, because it is more expensive and less effective for civilian helicopters flying from Fri. And on Fri. B. due to the greater resistance of the column of screws. That is why the Ka-60\62 is misaligned. For the military, the cost of the carrier system against the background of the cost of everything else is not critical, and the share of additional. the resistance of the carrier system of a helicopter hung with missiles should be less than that of civilian vehicles, plus there is also a developed lifting wing, also a source of resistance.

    After watching a sufficient number of videos, we can conclude about the use of helicopters as follows: the Mi-28N usually flies first, playing the role of a reconnaissance gunner. And behind him at a short distance is the Ka-52.


    I didn’t see much of the Mi-28N at all on the former. Ukraine. Perhaps because the Ka-52 is simply more photogenic. But a scout from a helicopter, who doesn’t even have a radar, is so-so. Where is the overhead radar ball? Have they been finalized and put on all cars?
    1. NKT
      +3
      31 March 2022 12: 02
      Mi-28NM has already been spotted in Ukraine.


      https://vk.com/wall-4144008_1037520?ysclid=l1erp2w528
      1. 0
        April 1 2022 01: 07
        Quote: NKT
        Mi-28NM
        Mi-28NM looks like this (without a nose locator)
      2. 0
        April 2 2022 10: 42
        This is Mi-28UB
        1. 0
          April 2 2022 13: 17
          That is 28 nm .....
          1. 0
            April 3 2022 13: 29
            701 board yes Mi-28nm, and which near Kamaz is 28ub
  12. +1
    31 March 2022 09: 07
    How can the progressive twin-rotor KA-52 scheme be compared with the historical single-rotor MI-28 scheme?
  13. 0
    31 March 2022 09: 16
    NM and M voiced a single avionics and weapons. The country needs a single attack helicopter. And it is possible to justify the use of three attack helicopters (even four) Mi24, Mi35, Mi28, Ka52 ..... which is what is happening now. The old Mi24 will not be allowed to retire, he "insures" the youth.
  14. 0
    31 March 2022 09: 35
    Give more helicopters, good and different!
    1. 0
      April 1 2022 10: 24
      Maybe soon there will be convertiplanes.
  15. +12
    31 March 2022 09: 47
    And what is the surprise of the conclusion? Everything is “done” with us: which is better: T-72/90 or T-80? Both. AK or AEK? Both. Typhoon-K or Typhoon-U? Well, they did, they tried ... Why should they close the plant now?
    You look at the transport Mi and you can see that each is a stage behind which there are colossal amounts of design and research work, hence the record achievements in many respects.
    And you look at the Mi-24 and 28 ... Once the Americans decided to radically shovel their "Iroquois" into a drummer ... and "Mi" are already collective farms "analogous" from the Mi-8 (after all, with the passenger compartment!). And then the Americans washed down the Apache. And "Mi" che suckers? We can too! And here's "Night hunter on uneven terrain."
    And this "cheating off" comes through literally from all the cracks. Yes, even at the concept level: "Apache" is not an "end in itself", it is specialized anti-tank helicopter, this is an asymmetric response to the huge number of tanks in service with the USSR / China / ATS countries. And in this role, he is good, and only then everything else. And what is the Mi-28 for our troops? It has no idea. Yes, in terms of performance characteristics, he is developing the Mi-24 (from which everything superfluous has finally been thrown out), but nothing more. The company "Mi" has nothing more: even after so many years they cannot properly assemble its "muzzle", and it flies like a Rubik's cube.
    And "Ka" with their Ka-50 and 52, during the development, they proceeded, first of all, from the tasks. They did not begin to cut the existing decks, namely designed helicopter. And the result is visible. For example, his cannon stands like this, not because you can’t put it in another way, but because “it’s necessary”. The Mi-28 has "like on Apache" (only that one has less energy shot, so you can shoot at an angle to the course, but our horseradish bother - they took the standard 2A42). And this is the case in everything: for Ka they try to minimize the probability of defeat (and give the opportunity to escape when it has already "arrived"), for Mi - they hung armor, for Ka they integrated and universalized pilots as much as possible, for Mi they stuck between armored wall pilots.
    And then, in order to justify all this "craft" it was necessary to start coming up with such "special" methods of application, for which, without the Mi-28, "well, no way." "AEK is too complicated for conscripts", and "Armata is an excessively powerful tank, the T-90 is quite enough", and "Su-57 is the best 6th generation fighter" of course.
    Unexpected conclusions?
    1. +6
      31 March 2022 13: 11
      Quote: CouchExpert
      And what is the surprise of the conclusion?

      What do you want from an amateur? Romek is a journalist .... If the facts do not correspond to the conclusions of the journalist, so much the worse for the facts!
    2. +4
      31 March 2022 15: 36
      When the Mi-28N went into the Ka-52 series, there was nowhere to produce, otherwise they were both from the USSR, where they did not have time to resolve the issue. The actual decision under Yeltsin with the launch of the Ka-50 in the series simply got up, then part of it touched the Ka-52 and went.
  16. +1
    31 March 2022 09: 57
    Quote: max702
    And KB MIL then what to close?

    They were combined into one KB.
    1. +6
      31 March 2022 10: 22
      Quote: Pavel57
      They were combined into one KB.

      Why are Kamov people freeloaders? They themselves work well, it would be better if they added funding at the expense of design bureaus that make the appearance of work.
  17. +2
    31 March 2022 10: 15
    The Ka-52 has its own huge drawback: with very sharp maneuvers, an overlap of the blades can occur, which leads to disaster.

    At the same time, the tail boom is cut off on the Mi-28 with no less serious consequences.
  18. +6
    31 March 2022 11: 24
    The K52 is better than the Mi28, if only because it is the only combat helicopter in the world with an ejection system. And the life of a pilot is the most important thing, "hardware" will come with time!
  19. -2
    31 March 2022 11: 50
    The gun still needs to be changed for both machines, for something less powerful and with a large ammunition load of at least 700-900 shells. 2A42 is clearly not for turntables IMHO.
    1. +4
      31 March 2022 12: 45
      What problems does the Ka52 have with the cannon? With Mi28, maybe yes .... you can put GSh-2-23
  20. -1
    31 March 2022 11: 59
    In my opinion, it is necessary to develop unmanned versions of attack helicopters. In real combat, they carry a large amount of weapons and follow the instructions of the crew of the leading vehicle, which is under their cover (as an option - remote control). Or they work offline on previously reconnoitered targets.
    1. 0
      April 1 2022 14: 48
      Progressive humanity is moving towards the UAV and its connection with the Helicopter and Kamikaze Drones on the suspension and the 3rd generation ATGM on the helicopter ....... something like that.
  21. 0
    31 March 2022 12: 06
    Here, in my opinion, the two helicopters have the most differences. The Ka-52 with its Argument-2000 sighting and flight navigation system is utterly good.

    So, for this reason, the Ka-52 is positioned as a reconnaissance-strike, and the Mi-28N is more like a strike.
    1. 0
      April 1 2022 02: 54
      Some kind of blind-sighted boxer? He can hit, but he doesn’t really see where, and his hands are crooked.
    2. 0
      April 1 2022 14: 49
      Even the Americans have already relied on Apache and removed the Scout Kiowa
  22. +1
    31 March 2022 12: 51
    Quote: Adrey
    Quote: Pavel57
    They were combined into one KB.

    Why are Kamov people freeloaders? They themselves work well, it would be better if they added funding at the expense of design bureaus that make the appearance of work.

    It is called - National Center for Helicopter Engineering named after M. L. Mil and N. I. Kamov -
    1. 0
      31 March 2022 18: 41
      Quote: Pavel57
      Quote: Adrey
      Quote: Pavel57
      They were combined into one KB.

      Why are Kamov people freeloaders? They themselves work well, it would be better if they added funding at the expense of design bureaus that make the appearance of work.

      It is called - National Center for Helicopter Engineering named after M. L. Mil and N. I. Kamov -

      And this is unfortunate. And so we have competition, well, very specific, and now it will disappear altogether.
      For those who really did something, looking at how the "neighbors" sitting on the fifth point of the same money receive incentives to decrease.
      Not my industry, but I wonder what the association is? Everything remained as it is, only an add-on was put on top to receive and distribute money?
  23. +2
    31 March 2022 13: 02
    Without Vitebsk, the mi28 is generally useless.
    Ka52 is safer for the crew, more ammo cannons, more weapon suspension pylons, etc., etc.
    It is clear that the miles crap one's pants
  24. -1
    31 March 2022 13: 04
    Quote: Zaurbek
    What problems does the Ka52 have with the cannon? With Mi28, maybe yes .... you can put GSh-2-23

    For both machines, very strong recoil, large spread...
    1. -1
      31 March 2022 16: 19
      For both machines, very strong recoil, large spread ... - I support it entirely. 2A42 was created for the land under the interspecific 30-mm cartridge. The power of the 30 mm cartridge in this version is excessive for a helicopter.
      1. +1
        31 March 2022 16: 48
        Quote: Diplomingenieur
        For both machines, very strong recoil, large spread.

        For all helicopters in the world, firing from a cannon is a very strong recoil, a large spread.
        There is a video from Afghanistan, where the Apache could not get a cannon into the house.
        1. 0
          April 1 2022 14: 52
          The guns are different ..... the accuracy is different ..... The Ka52 shoots all our planes and helicopters in competitions and exercises ..... although the shell is + or - one. Apache has a 30mm with a short sleeve - almost a grenade launcher. A10 30mm with a sleeve is longer than 2A42 and more powerful.
    2. 0
      April 2 2022 13: 15
      Ka52 shoots the most from a cannon
  25. The comment was deleted.
  26. 0
    31 March 2022 13: 57
    There is a lot to talk about comparing the losses of the Ka-52 and Mi-28.
    1. +2
      31 March 2022 14: 02
      Mi28 kept away from dangerous alterations
      1. 0
        31 March 2022 15: 28
        It would be interesting to know why?
        1. The comment was deleted.
  27. -1
    31 March 2022 14: 05
    The author, as it were, did not fully reveal the shortcomings and advantages of these machines. The Mi-28N + Ka-52 bundle just covers all the shortcomings of the machines
  28. +3
    31 March 2022 17: 21
    If translated into figures of the maximum working height, then the Ka-52 can climb 500 meters higher. Another question - is it necessary?

    When working in the mountains, this question will not arise. It's definitely there.
    1. +1
      April 1 2022 13: 18
      On this issue, in general, in general, a fierce lie,The unique ability of coaxial rotors to keep their total thrust unchanged during pedal deflection and turning at constant engine power provides the combat Ka-29 with a special advantage over the Mi-24 when performing hover maneuvers and low flight speeds, including at extremely low altitudes. This is especially pronounced at high air temperatures, as well as in mountainous conditions at significant barometric heights. The maneuverability of the Ka-29 in terms of performing pedal turns is maintained from sea level to a static ceiling of 3700 m.

      A single-rotor Mi-24 with a tail rotor on a static ceiling of 2000 m is only capable of hovering without performing turns. In order for it to be able to perform turns with the angular velocity of rotation of the coaxial Ka-29 on its static ceiling, its officially declared ceiling must be reduced by 400-500 m. At this altitude, the engines will operate at a mode below takeoff, providing the necessary power reserve for turning the tail rotor during reversals. In case of failure of one engine in flight, the coaxial helicopter retains the same maneuverability in terms of pedal turns as with two working engines. Mi-24 with a tail rotor is simply not available.

      That is, a similar picture is observed in all comparisons of coaxial and classical turntables.
  29. 0
    31 March 2022 17: 23
    Quote from yahontovyi
    Even more effective would be a pair of machines of the same type, in which the disadvantages of both types would be eliminated and the advantages would be summarized. And not only in combat, but also in operation.

    That doesn't happen. Read Mikhalkov's fable "Elephant-painter". You are suggesting something like this. The amazing qualities of something (any) are obtained only at the cost of weakening other properties.
  30. +3
    31 March 2022 17: 38
    I am not an expert, and I do not know which of the helicopters is better, but let's look at the facts. Russia, according to Military Balance, has more than 90 Mi-28s and more than 127 Ka-52s. The difference is not very significant. But in the footage from Ukraine, we see mainly the Ka-52. Cause? Is it because the Syrian experience revealed the advantages of the Ka-52 over the Mi-28?
    1. -2
      31 March 2022 19: 06
      Quote: Diplomingenieur
      For both machines, very strong recoil, large spread ... - I support it entirely. 2A42 was created for the land under the interspecific 30-mm cartridge. The power of the 30 mm cartridge in this version is excessive for a helicopter.

      Quote: Ramzaj99
      For all helicopters in the world, firing from a cannon is a very strong recoil, a large spread.
      There is a video from Afghanistan, where the Apache could not get a cannon into the house.

      It is energetically more profitable to disperse a projectile in a gun barrel than using a rocket engine (if we compare the ratio of the mass of the cartridge case with gunpowder to the mass of the projectile, and the ratio of the mass of the rocket engine to the mass of the warhead), therefore, the gun is installed on helicopters, but not where it should be from the point of view of recoil , that is, they are placed in the nose of the helicopter under the cockpit, as a result, the line of recoil force passes at best (if you shoot strictly along the axis of the helicopter) under the helicopter and it nods, if it turns to the side (there is a large shoulder of the moment.) therefore airborne shooting is not effective at all. In order to shoot where it is necessary, the gun should be placed in the place of the cockpit as close as possible to the gearbox, and the pilots should be transferred to the tail of the helicopter by the gearbox, let them control on monitors with television cameras, this is unusual and somewhat inconvenient, but it will be safer for the pilots, they will be covered by the gearbox.
  31. +1
    31 March 2022 19: 43
    Quote: NOMADE
    Well, he also has a much weaker gun

    So this is the balance of compromise solutions. Why take a land gun with a recoil of several tons?
    1. 0
      31 March 2022 20: 50
      The answer is obvious even to you - to get more firepower? And her accuracy is better than on Apache
      1. 0
        April 1 2022 13: 28
        Quote: KERMET
        The answer is obvious even to you - to get more firepower? And her accuracy is better than on Apache

        Did you compare the accuracy data yourself? Can you bring?
        In truth, and not from duropedia, your favorite system has never been distinguished by this indicator.
        1. 0
          April 1 2022 15: 18
          Who will tell you the truth wink
          And the accuracy data has already been discussed and cited more than once on various specialized forums, believe it or not
  32. +2
    31 March 2022 20: 57
    the main advantage of the ka52 is the normal ejection system. I can’t imagine how the designers of the 28th managed without it, in a real battle the crews are suicide bombers. that's why they let the 52s go on dangerous missions, as in the same gostomel
    1. 0
      April 2 2022 12: 50
      It is strange to talk about "suicide bombers" because of the lack of a catapult. In a real battle, an ejected crew on enemy territory would rather regret it. But hope, as they say, does wonders. And the catapult gives pilots hope ... but nothing more.
  33. +1
    31 March 2022 21: 00
    Quote: Vadmir
    But in the footage from Ukraine, we see mainly the Ka-52.


    because the ka52 has a crew ejection system in case, for example, a stinger hits. and the mi28 crew are suicide bombers. that’s why more than 52s fly
  34. +1
    31 March 2022 21: 26
    EMNIP, the Mi-28 also has a small cargo compartment in the stern, which makes it possible to evacuate the crew of a downed helicopter that landed on an emergency landing ... It's worth a lot!
  35. 0
    April 1 2022 00: 24
    But purely outwardly, the beauty of the Ka 52 is prettier! A sort of air terminator, once you see and immediately fall in love!
    1. +1
      April 1 2022 20: 37
      Ka-50 was more brutal bully
  36. -6
    April 1 2022 02: 14
    Great article. Moderately critical, informative and gives a good understanding for ordinary citizens. good
  37. -2
    April 1 2022 08: 35
    However, if you carefully study YouTube materials, you will find at least 3 downed Ka-52s in Ukraine. Two of them burned down. At least one with a crew. And for the most part, I see more Ka-52s working ...
  38. 0
    April 1 2022 13: 17
    in the Mi-28N, part of the energy is spent on the rotation of the tail rotor

    And for the Ka-52, nothing goes to the second main rotor? request
    1. +2
      April 1 2022 13: 52
      I was given cons, although everyone recognizes the fact that the Mi-28N Ka-52 and Apache guns cannot provide accurate shooting, but since I am not writing for the sake of pluses, I will continue
      if the helicopter is supposed to be equipped with a cannon, then it is necessary to design it around the cannon, and for the sake of the cannon, something like a tank, and if it is designed separately, then you will have to think about where to stick it into it or stick it, as a result, the cannon is molded in front under the cockpit, far from the center of mass, but the laws of mechanics cannot be deceived, and in the end the gun shoots just as exactly as if we raised the machine gun on outstretched arms above our heads. There are two ways out of this situation, change the gun to a machine gun or move it as close as possible to the center of gravity of the helicopter move the cockpit to the tail, by the way, in the Mi-28N there is a special cargo compartment. if you go the second way, you can significantly increase the caliber, with a helicopter mass of about 10 tons, the caliber can be 57mm or even more, remember the Beech XA-38 "Grizzly" attack aircraft, with a 75mm gun
      1. 0
        April 2 2022 06: 39
        On the Tunguska, the guns were also on the sides of the tower and they said that they would definitely not shoot. If there are two synchronous guns on the Ka-52, even smash it more, with guidance + -15 °, stabilization. If you make a helicopter around the gun, then he will need KAZ. Actually, it would be interesting. Helicopter invulnerable to MANPADS, with KAZ.
      2. DO
        0
        April 5 2022 13: 45
        agond,
        as a result, the gun shoots just as accurately as if we raised the machine gun on outstretched arms above our heads. There are two ways out of this situation, change the cannon to a machine gun or move it as close as possible to the center of mass of the helicopter, but for this you will have to move the cockpit to the tail

        There is a third way out - an unmanned execution of an attack helicopter.
    2. +2
      April 1 2022 15: 16
      What if you think about it? You yourself wrote the second carrier screw.
      1. 0
        April 1 2022 15: 21
        Quote: KERMET
        What if you think about it? You yourself wrote the second rotor.

        So I thought and asked a question to the author of the article, who pointed out that one of the shortcomings of the Mi-28 is that it spends part of the energy on rotating the second (tail) propeller. And for some reason he did not notice that the Ka-52 also had two propellers.
        1. +1
          April 1 2022 15: 25
          No, you didn’t understand that there are rotors, but there are rudders that do not create lift and even in straight flight or hover take away engine power, there are no such “freeloaders” on the Ka-50, but this is approximately (I don’t remember exactly) 10-20 percent of total thrust
          1. 0
            April 1 2022 15: 36
            This link has already been cited here, there is a description of the advantages in the characteristics and piloting of the coaxial scheme
            http://www.airwar.ru/enc/sh/ka29.html
    3. 0
      April 2 2022 13: 13
      It’s leaving ..... But Asya’s lifting force goes down ..... And on the 28th part goes sideways
    4. The comment was deleted.
  39. 0
    April 1 2022 13: 32
    until the new Ka-60 went into production, which should carry out precisely reconnaissance functions

    So the Ka-60 is a prototype of a multi-purpose helicopter, but not a strike and reconnaissance one ...
    1. 0
      April 1 2022 14: 01
      Quote from huntershooter
      So the Ka-60 is a prototype of a multi-purpose helicopter, but not a strike and reconnaissance one ...

      Isn't the concept of "multi-purpose" intelligence included? Mi-8 is also multi-purpose, but successfully performs the functions of both strike and reconnaissance.
      1. 0
        April 4 2022 16: 59
        It can conduct reconnaissance, but it will never fully perform the functions of ka 52 and mi 28 either in reconnaissance or in attack. Ka 60 is just closer to mi 8 in ideology.
  40. 0
    April 1 2022 15: 54
    Quote: Adrey
    Quote: Pavel57
    Quote: Adrey
    Quote: Pavel57
    They were combined into one KB.

    Why are Kamov people freeloaders? They themselves work well, it would be better if they added funding at the expense of design bureaus that make the appearance of work.

    It is called - National Center for Helicopter Engineering named after M. L. Mil and N. I. Kamov -

    And this is unfortunate. And so we have competition, well, very specific, and now it will disappear altogether.
    For those who really did something, looking at how the "neighbors" sitting on the fifth point of the same money receive incentives to decrease.
    Not my industry, but I wonder what the association is? Everything remained as it is, only an add-on was put on top to receive and distribute money?

    Consolidation is, in fact, not amalgamation, but absorption. To those who are closer to the feeder of the more distant. Approximate, in most cases, not more talented, but more prohindest. So, the swindler Tupolev cleared a clearing for himself with bomber aircraft. Ruining the wonderful teams of Myasishchev, Yakovlev. Stealing a lot of their ideas. Now the same thing is observed in the merger of MIG and SU. Aviation in the USSR is the only thing that was at the world level, and only thanks to the competition of design bureaus and factories. We will only remember and regret the past.
  41. +1
    April 1 2022 16: 00
    Quote: KERMET
    War is an economy, and even under ideal conditions (no corruption, etc.), designers have to listen to the military (they give tasks for what they want), the military has to listen to industrialists (they say what they can do and what not and in how much it will cost financially) Military equipment is a complete compromise

    I will say more - the work of a designer of any type of product is a painful search for compromises. Only the choice of something more important, and only in this particular example, at the cost of reducing the (inevitable) other characteristics, does a machine appear that is superior to others, but only in some fairly narrow corridor. It is possible to surpass many machines. in some settings. It is impossible to surpass in all parameters, even the only one.
  42. -1
    April 1 2022 18: 36
    The downing of a Russian Mi-28, which was hit in the tail, due to which the helicopter lost its tail boom. The crew took the car away from the residential area. Both crew members survived and were evacuated.

    https://t.me/istorijaoruzija/50628?comment=6510937

    1. 0
      April 5 2022 12: 36
      They often write about the heroic withdrawal from development, but
      after the separation of the tail boom from the helicopter of the classical scheme, it is difficult to talk about controlled flight
  43. 0
    April 1 2022 19: 02
    Quote: SovAr238A

    Another eyewash and cut at any cost.


    That is, making a zoo from a pile of incompatible ammunition is not a cut?
    Well, it's good to be rich and healthy...
  44. +2
    April 1 2022 21: 44
    Explain to me how this same "work in pairs" can be practically carried out if these types of machines are in different shelves?
    1. +3
      April 1 2022 21: 55
      It’s just that the news showed how the Ka-52 made an emergency landing, showed holes from 7.62mm bullets, one pierced the skin and damaged the pipeline, after which all the kerosene flowed out of it in a few minutes, and the second penetration was 7.62mm in the cockpit area, but the bullet is a quote from the pilot "got entangled in the wires .. and therefore did not wound him in the leg", the bullet itself was presented, it seems that the helicopter is not armored at all
  45. 0
    April 2 2022 11: 04
    You heard how the KA-52 flies up and it is called quieter, its claps of blades are heard for five or more kilometers, which is why it goes second so that it would be a surprise for MANPADS.
  46. 0
    April 2 2022 12: 01
    By the way, those who are especially attentive and inquisitive could notice in old videos from the scene the sometimes flashing 28s at "jump airfields" or busy ones.
  47. 0
    April 2 2022 12: 36
    Not an article, but a direct laudatory ode to both helicopters. But everything is decided not in technical minor advantages and disadvantages, but in the cost of production and the possibility of mass production of the machine. No one in the war needs a super-duper car in a single or even a dozen or two copies. We need a car, MASSIVE, even with somewhat weak characteristics. Modern air defense does not care what bells and whistles inside the car, anyway the car will inevitably be destroyed. And now, in order to replace a downed one, a massive and cheap car is needed. As far as I understand, none of the described machines satisfies this most important criterion. Alas, this means that these machines are not for real war, but for show-offs. Maybe someone will not agree with me, but even the war in Ukraine showed this. There, ancient Soviet helicopters perform their tasks, but what else is needed?
  48. +1
    April 2 2022 18: 58
    No... gentlemen. Mi-28 is not even Mi-24 at all ... and even more so not Ka-52. Of course, we have two competing design bureaus. But the Ka-52 is without a doubt (according to Kvachkov) the best in the world. You don’t have to suffer x --- it, Mi are amphibious transport helicopters, (perhaps the best in the world), but Ka are attack helicopters. The fact that a s..any Stinger breaks the Mi-28 in half shows that the scheme is not "survivable". But he fails to break the Ka-52. So "Caesar is Caesar's and locksmith's is locksmith's." Well, the Kremlin will probably draw conclusions ....
  49. DO
    -1
    April 2 2022 21: 59
    the conclusion about the use of helicopters is as follows: the Mi-28N usually flies first, playing the role of a reconnaissance gunner. And behind him at a short distance is the Ka-52.
    Quite logical, since the Mi-28N has better armor and detection systems. In addition, the Mi-28N cannon provides a larger angle of fire without changing course and reducing speed. Therefore, the Mi-28N plays the role of a reconnaissance aircraft, providing the crew of the Ka-52 with data on targets. And he starts working on the goal first. And the Ka-52 plays the role of covering, including from the air, and delivers the final blow with its impressive set of weapons.

    the Ka-52 has an ejection crew rescue system

    Here the following conclusion suggests itself: to convert the Mi-28 into a drone. The co-pilot of the Ka-52 should act as an operator controlling the unmanned Mi-28.
    For in attack helicopters, the most expensive thing, in every sense, is the pilots.
    1. 0
      April 3 2022 09: 27
      Quote: Angry
      The fact that a s..any Stinger breaks the Mi-28 in half shows that the scheme is not "survivable". But he fails to break the Ka-52

      But in general, is it possible in principle to create a helicopter capable of enduring a hit by a MANPADS missile, that is, a small (keyword portable) missile with a launch weight of 10-12 kg ?, if not, what to do?
      1. DO
        0
        April 3 2022 13: 58
        agond, it remains to make an unmanned attack helicopter, and a manned helicopter that controls it, which does not climb into hell.
        The scope of such a bundle is mainly the front line of the enemy’s defense, because during a “deep flight”, the enemy will try to shoot down a manned helicopter in the first place.
    2. 0
      April 5 2022 12: 32
      The coaxial scheme, by the way, is also more suitable for a drone in terms of controllability in flight
      1. DO
        0
        April 5 2022 13: 29
        KERMET, for a drone, the question is much more important, which scheme is cheaper to manufacture. For an attack unmanned helicopter in a technological conflict does not live long, in fact it is a consumable.
        1. 0
          April 5 2022 14: 48
          I agree, just as I agree that the simpler, the cheaper. And now try to go to any "Children's World" or type in the search engine flying toys of helicopters - most of the models are made in a coaxial pattern - because it's so corny easier to stabilize its flight
          1. DO
            0
            April 5 2022 15: 15
            Kermet, I don't know. For real and not toy combat attack helicopters, only design bureaus together with manufacturers can reliably calculate the cost of production of single-rotor helicopters with a tail rotor, and twin-rotor coaxial ones.
            On the net, I have met the opinion several times that single-screw ones are cheaper. However, the reliability of these estimates is unknown.
  50. +1
    April 3 2022 18: 51
    The tail boom is the main drawback of Mil helicopters. How many lives of pilots were claimed by the separation of the beam. The Kamov helicopter is more tenacious in this regard. This is the main difference.
    1. 0
      April 4 2022 15: 51
      Quote: Redfox3k
      The tail boom is the main drawback of Mil helicopters. How many lives of pilots were claimed by the separation of the beam. The Kamov helicopter is more tenacious in this regard. This is the main difference.

      The main means of destroying helicopters now is guided missiles, in particular MANPADS. Warhead detonation is carried out by contact action. When a warhead with a RDX charge of 1 kg is contacted, is there any difference which part of the structure will be torn off, the tail boom, cockpit or gearbox? The warhead parameters are chosen so as to cause unacceptable damage to the target (helicopter). Do not make global conclusions.
      1. 0
        April 5 2022 12: 29
        The tail rotor, tail and end booms, long transmission, elements of the control system loaded in flight, according to the experience of military conflicts in Vietnam and Afghanistan, bring up to 30% of irretrievable combat losses of single-rotor helicopters from small arms fire from ground forces weapons and collision of tail rotors with obstacles
        1. 0
          April 5 2022 14: 52
          Strictly speaking, the ranking of structural elements, components and systems of a helicopter that are critical in terms of vulnerability depends on the given weapons. If this is a small arms, for example, 7,62 mm (Vietnam), then the crew, the tail rotor drive shaft, and the fuel system are significant. The increase in the caliber of weapons to 12,7 mm (Afghanistan) did not fundamentally change the picture. If this is an MZA with a caliber of 30 mm and higher, let's say a caliber of 35 mm, beloved in Germany and Switzerland, then everything will float. A single hit in any part of the helicopter structure with ammunition containing 80 - 120 g of explosives provides an unambiguous termination of the flight, at least in the form of a disruption of the mission. And if MANPADS dominate the battlefield, and only the states have supplied them to Ukraine, and only recently, two thousand complexes, then the priorities in ranking vulnerable elements have changed once again. And I repeat, the detonation of a warhead, already with an explosive mass of one kg, with a delay in detonation after contact with the surface of the helicopter, inside the structure, and regardless of whether there is a tail boom or not, unequivocally leads to the death of the machine.
          Naturally, the question is, what to do? Probably the same as the states, drastically increasing the flight speed of a twin-rotor apparatus, introducing a third pusher propeller and maximizing visibility reduction in all parts of the EM spectrum.
          1. 0
            April 5 2022 15: 19
            Quote: Diplomingenieur
            Naturally, the question is, what to do? Probably the same as the states, drastically increasing the flight speed of a twin-rotor apparatus, introducing a third pusher propeller and maximizing visibility reduction in all parts of the EM spectrum.

            The introduction of higher speeds will lead to worse maneuvering and less time for recognition and engagement of the target by the pilot, are there attack aircraft with high speeds? In the same Mi-24, speed was the main argument; in the AN-64, the Americans took a different path
          2. +1
            April 5 2022 15: 43
            Quote: Diplomingenieur
            And I repeat, the detonation of a warhead, already with an explosive mass of one kg, with a delay in detonation after contact with the surface of the helicopter, inside the structure, and regardless of whether there is a tail boom or not, unequivocally leads to the death of the machine.

            Maybe it will be so .... when the percentage of MANPADS hits is 100%. So far, even a simple heat trap makes it possible to divert detonation to a more or less safe distance, and in what sector do you think most missiles are blown up and fragments of MANPADS are scattered?
            1. 0
              17 June 2022 14: 25
              If you read the performance characteristics of even old Soviet MANPADS, needles, arrows, they have a hit probability of 0,5. Stingers are still a more advanced complex. Thus, if there are 3-4 missiles launched, the probability of hitting a helicopter rises to 90% or more.
      2. 0
        April 5 2022 15: 15
        Quote: Diplomingenieur
        The main means of defeating helicopters is now guided missiles, in particular MANPADS

        Which does not exclude the fire impact of small arms of various calibers.
        We are not saying that with the appearance of nuclear weapons in service, all others have lost their relevance?
  51. 0
    April 3 2022 21: 39
    It seems to me that this war will show the main thing: performance characteristics are important, but not that much. The main thing is tactics of application and mass application. The performance characteristics of the weapons themselves are extremely important. I really miss hellfire or the famous shot - I forgot.
    But I’m really interested in what’s happening in the military-industrial complex now. It is already obvious that the total losses in helicopters and aircraft are approaching fifty, and maybe more. Of course, for many armchair warriors (which I am), this will be news, but it is a fact. How are things going with aircraft replenishment? what about sports substitution, etc. We are at war with Ukraine, this is not NATO. Albeit with full reconnaissance from NATO and support. There is a lot to think about.
  52. +1
    April 4 2022 13: 34
    Two beautiful helicopters. BUT. No matter how much you want it, you need to choose one, the whole world does this, I repeat, no matter how much you want it. And so we have deunification in almost everything except engines. Even guided missiles are completely different with almost identical characteristics. All this puts a heavy burden on the budget; two completely different systems with almost identical characteristics need to be produced and maintained for forty years. And so we have everywhere in the army - air defense, tanks, cars, aviation and everything else. It's a pity. And the helicopters are very good, one of the few types of equipment in the Russian Armed Forces that are truly modern and are at the level of their analogues and even surpass them.
    1. +1
      April 4 2022 18: 50
      Quote from: max_everhead
      And so we have deunification in almost everything except engines. Even guided missiles are completely different with almost identical characteristics. All this places a heavy burden on the budget; two completely different systems with almost identical characteristics need to be produced and maintained for forty years.

      Unification, standardization, uniformity are certainly a necessary thing, but how to achieve it on the topic of which helicopter is better can only be answered after analyzing statistical data, and in general it is not very easy to find the optimal solution, and then no one has coaxial combat helicopters like us
  53. 0
    April 5 2022 22: 41
    Quote: KERMET
    Maybe this will happen... when the hit rate of MANPADS is 100%. So far, even a simple heat trap makes it possible to divert detonation to a more or less safe distance

    So it is already close to 100%. Your ideas are simply outdated. Well, yes, they kind of took everything and left it at the same level as it was 40 years ago. But there is an inapplicable truth: the development of means of destruction is ahead of the development of means of defense.
    And where did the noise-resistant two-channel IR/UV seekers go? Which do not respond to heat traps.
    That’s why they pump up the military forces of even third world countries with MANPADS. Therefore, Türkiye has mastered the licensed production of the Stinger.
  54. 0
    April 12 2022 22: 17
    Ka 52 and Mi 28 N give excellent results. Russia has successfully used both models. I wonder if the black shark Ka 50 would have been used as well.
  55. -2
    April 13 2022 13: 01
    Wow, what an article. Well, let's arrange an analysis.


    True, the Mi-28N uses part of its energy to rotate the tail rotor, but this is not critical


    Why is this not critical? The RV consumes up to 10% of the power of the control system. That is why designers work with alternative schemes.

    and the Ka-52 has a real advantage at high (by helicopter standards) altitudes. If we translate into figures for the maximum operating altitude, then the Ka-52 can climb 500 meters higher. Another question - is it necessary?


    Still as it should be. And the point here is not so much the altitude, but the power reserve for vertical maneuver.

    Helicopter pilots who have flown both machines say that the Mi-28N is lighter and easier to fly.


    It looks like the author was deceived. The coaxial circuit, due to its symmetry, is easier to control.

    Another question is that it is difficult to imagine a device that is more difficult to control than a combat helicopter.


    Certainly. For example, Mi-2.

    The Ka-52 is shorter, the Mi-28 has a smaller vertical profile.


    This is just not critical. And due to the low-mounted NV on the Mi-28, the pilot in flight looks through its plane, which is tiring.

    When entering the vortex ring mode, the Mi-28N demonstrates greater stability,


    What nonsense? If you fly into a vortex ring, you don’t need to think about stability, but get out of it quickly. And here, first of all, you need to look at the graphs of the modes of both helicopters, in which they fall into this mode. However, during my service I saw only a few cases when people fell into this regime. And then, the pilots tried very hard.

    but, unlike the Ka-52, when landing and hovering it does not like cross winds, especially from the right side.


    But this is a big problem. There were plenty of cases when it spun during landing/takeoff.

    The Ka-52 has its own huge drawback: with very sharp maneuvers, an overlap of the blades can occur, which leads to disaster. This happened in practice and even ended in the death of pilots.


    Sharp maneuvers are contraindicated even on the Mi-28; the beam can easily be demolished.

    Plus, the coaxial layout of the propellers of the Kamov machine is a perfectly balanced aerodynamic system, and damage to even one blade leads to the failure of the machine, followed by an accident or disaster. And two screws quite obviously double the chance of damage to the screws from air defense.


    Which ones are doubled? Six blades of the Ka-52 and five blades plus RV on the Mi-28.

    The Mi-28N inherited amazing survivability from its ancestor Mi-24. In Afghanistan and Chechnya, Mi-24s flew to the base and landed even with a completely lost propeller blade.


    The blades, including the spar, were shot through. Loss of some sections too. But a completely lost blade is already a disaster.

    From the numerous shots coming from Ukraine, it is increasingly possible to see that helicopters are working in pairs. It is the combination of Mi-28N + Ka-52 that turns out to be very effective.


    Legacy of the nineties. When they lost their Afghan experience and are starting to make mistakes again. Steam, and even more so in such conditions, leads to increased losses. Afghan showed the optimal strike group: four attack helicopters (at that time Mi-24) and a pair of Mi-8 for PSO.


    More than once, the thesis that balance is better than any remarkable properties and characteristics has already arisen. In our case, we got an efficient and balanced system. Given that the Mi-28NM and Ka-52M with reinforced armor, more modern radars, and more powerful engines will soon go into production, the pair will be further developed.



    Not this way. The shortcomings of the Ka-52 can easily be eliminated by modernizing the avionics and weapons. While the Mi-28 has a number of defects that can only be eliminated by discontinuing its production:
    - impossibility of use from jump platforms without their preliminary preparation, the tail rotor is very low;
    - unsuccessful main gearbox, which limits the already low speed;
    - the pilot looks through the plane of the propeller, which is tiring;
    - it is impossible to accept NAR in series, the engine entrance is close;
    - only four suspension points.
  56. The comment was deleted.
  57. 0
    17 June 2022 14: 19
    In conditions of massive use of MANPADS, the answer to this question is completely closed. Aviation pilots are valuable and their rescue in the event of a helicopter defeat is a priority task; people must be provided with the possibility of rescue. It is three orders of magnitude more difficult to train a pilot than a tank driver; in addition, even a tank driver has the opportunity to get out of a damaged vehicle, but a pilot in the air does not. Mi-28 pilots DO NOT have the ability to eject.
  58. 0
    25 June 2022 12: 01
    Suck it already with your Mi28. We saw how they fall. But Ka52s don’t come out of the sky 24/7 to iron in the sky, mom doesn’t worry. It’s obvious who is for the fight and who is sitting on the saw
  59. 0
    23 August 2022 13: 24
    So far, only 300mm MLRS have been ordered in the new government order. I would like to train such a Tulumbas-super on a helicopter for direct fire.
  60. 0
    15 September 2022 05: 12
    15 years ago, TV-3 was accelerated by one and a half times and as a result it was more economical, but less resource-consuming and not more reliable than TV7-117ST. So, on the contrary, it is necessary to reduce the speed and power; the UEC does nothing at all to make it more powerful.
    Let them make the new VK-4000, that’s a different story. All for the Hero of Labor of the Russian Federation.
    And so they went to hell.
  61. The comment was deleted.
  62. 0
    16 May 2023 07: 35
    Before the SVO, the Ministry of Defense did not need the Ka-52; they were sold to the Arabs, since the tender for the production of combat helicopters was taken by the MI-28. Could this be allowed to happen?
    In addition, this article does not note the important superiority of the Ka-52 over the Mi-28. If the Mi-28 helicopter is hit in the tail, it becomes inoperable. The survivability of the Ka-52 is much higher. I really hope that after the completion of the SVO, such a unique combat helicopter as the Ka-52 will not fall into the category of being useless to anyone, as was the case before.