Military Review

Corvettes that will go into battle

210

Corvette of project 20380, it seems, will become the most massive ship in the Navy. But its shortcomings must be overcome. Photo: Vitaly Spirin, nordsy.spb.ru


Good news about the restart of production of corvettes at the Amur shipyard (ASZ) should not lead to the flaws inherent in these ships being transferred from one ship in a series to another. Now, until a contract for the production of these ships is signed and their final appearance is not "frozen", it is of great importance to raise the issue of eliminating the inherent defects of these corvettes.

Let's make a reservation right away: we are not talking about revealing ALL flaws yet. The fact is that some of them (for example, the use of the RTPU SM-588 for launching torpedoes of the Packet-NK complex instead of normal torpedo tubes or the lack of full-fledged hydroacoustic countermeasures) simply cannot be eliminated if the strict instructions of the Minister of Defense S.K. ... Shoigu to the head of the united shipbuilding corporation A.L. Rakhmanov: "No new ROCs."

Therefore, it is worth raising exactly those problems that can be solved without starting the development of systems that we do not have in mass production, so that the problem is solved as quickly as possible and for the minimum money. But first, it's worth making an excursion into history corvettes of the project 20380 and 20385.

Difficult children of shipbuilding


The creation of project 20380 corvettes began in the late 90s. the last century in the conditions of extreme underfunding of the Ministry of Defense. Initially, the question was this: to start building at least something (and it was originally conceived with practically no development work, R&D), in order to simply preserve surface shipbuilding. So, for example, torpedoes were planned in a caliber of 53 cm, finished products and, in general, the development of something new on the corvette was one: a power plant from the 16D49 engines of the Kolomna plant and a new transmission RRP12000. Everything else was basically planned for serial production.

Note: objectively, the situation at that moment was not so critical and the fulfillment of large export orders for ships showed this clearly. In addition, the Navy has largely driven itself into the stranglehold of severe underfunding, actively participating in the "mistake worse than a crime" with START-2 and the Borey-Bulava program (with an exorbitant protrusion of the NSNF role and squeezing everything else for this).

Those. There was a real opportunity to take a close look around and choose the really optimal option (a good example is the Project 22350 frigate, which appeared that way). But ... subjective factors were at work (including the dissertation of the then Commander-in-Chief of the Navy).

Taking into account the fact that in the early 2000s, the prospects for project 22350 were vague and the only serial surface warship turned out to be a corvette of project 20380, it began to rapidly overgrow ROC.

At the same time, there was nothing wrong with the fact of the OCDs themselves, the problem was in their organization, especially when the most complex and technically risky work deliberately (that is, hiding his head from quite expected problems like an ostrich) shifted to the last stages of implementation, after which, of course, “completely unexpectedly” (for the leaders of these developments) “winter came”, more precisely, very serious problems and delays began (both technical and due to the same naive funding schedule: “at the last moment we will give everything” and “finish us all in a year or two ").

However, the most disastrous thing was that the new corvettes by their "fathers" were actually considered not as warships, but as "flag demonstrators", "technology demonstrators" and "pictures for export."

In narrow circles, the phrase attributed to the former chief of the 1st Central Research Institute of Naval Shipbuilding, said "about" is widely known:

“We will not fight with anyone. The corvette is needed to display the flag. "

A few years later there was the first sea battle in the XNUMXst century - "Mirage" against Georgian boats, but this principle, attributed to I.G. Zakharova, pursues our corvettes as some kind of evil fate. They are still being built as if they were made not for the war, but "for the sake of it."

The situation is aggravated by the organizational problems of the Navy and the complete lack of coordination between scientific institutions. fleet.

So, the real "customer" is the Ministry of Defense (Department of State Defense Order, DOGOZ), and this is not a formal accountant, but a structure that directly leads and supervises the ROC. Moreover, in the Navy itself, the surveillance radar is the RTS (radio-technical) service, and the SAM and SAM is the RAV (missile and artillery armament) service. The fact that at the exit of this process the air defense missile systems are beaten either into “milk” or only at extremely simple targets (such as the RM-15M) is “not concerned” by the ERP personnel, this is the “RAV problem”.

Moreover, this whole fable of Krylov ("Swan, Cancer and Pike") is supervised by various institutions! In the pre-Serdyuk period, the Operations Directorate of the Navy stood above them, which was successfully defeated during the reform (the last person who fought for its restoration, Admiral Suchkov, passed away back in August 2013).

Corvette air defense problem


The head corvette was built with the Kortik-M anti-aircraft missile and artillery system (ZRAK BR). At the same time, the issue of placing 2 ZRAK on board (in the stern without a system for storing and reloading missiles) was initially considered, together with a command module with a radar "Positive-M" (3-cm range).

The installation of "Kortik", which initially had a parameter of 300 m (ie, capable of hitting targets that went directly to the ship) was due to the loss of the possibility of mass production of the "Dagger" air defense system and the unavailability of the promising Redut air defense system. At the same time, in the future, the series provided for the replacement of "Kortika-M" with "Pantsir-M" (which had much higher performance characteristics). The option was quite working, but ... for beach conditions.


Lead ship of the project, corvette "Guarding" with ZRAK "Kortik-M"

Note: Target heading parameter - the shortest perpendicular distance from the center of the coordinate system, in which the weapon is located, to the projection of the target flying on the horizontal plane. Or more simply: the length of the perpendicular to the projection of the target's trajectory onto the surface (sea, land), drawn from the point from which the target is fired. The higher the heading parameter, the more difficult it is to hit the target, the higher the speed of what is hitting the target (projectile or missile), and the higher the requirements for aiming and guidance. "Zero" parameter is the simplest case, the target goes directly to weaponthat should amaze her.

There were three main problems: a small parameter, restrictions on the defeat of maneuvering targets and a meteorological mm-range of a firing radar - it was corny "blind" not only from rain, but also from dense fog.

The first of this composition from the corvette was removed the stern "Kortik" and the surveillance radar "Positive-M" - in favor of the radar "Fourke", the problems of which were initially clear to the specialists.

From the first serial corvette "with things on the way out" they asked for a "Kortik". Instead, the Redut air defense system that did not exist at that time was installed.

Purely formally, according to the performance characteristics, it was the "best option" (the affected area is larger, the parameter, the all-round shelling is provided), but it was "SAM, which does not exist", moreover with extremely expensive anti-aircraft guided missiles - SAM.

At the same time, "Redut" itself, in fact, did not exist as an air defense system, as a complex. In fact, they were the SAMs themselves with an active radar seeker. In the ship part of the complex, there were simply no means of radio correction of the missile defense system. The corvette housed a launcher for 12 cells (12 missiles 9M96 or 48 missiles 9M100), BIUS "Sigma", which developed the point of inclusion ("opening") of the seeker, and the flight mission of the missile defense system according to the surveillance radar. The target of the missile seeker must find itself.


Launch of the 9M96 SAM system of the anti-aircraft missile "complex" (quotation marks are quite appropriate here) "Redoubt" from the corvette of project 20380

The requirements for targeting from the radar corresponded to the "Positive-M". Errors from "Fourke" were much more than acceptable. In addition, Fourke, operating at a wavelength of 10 cm, had serious problems in working in the drive layer (for targets at ultra-low altitudes) at the physical level.

This was superimposed on the fact that "Redut", having no line of radio correction of the anti-aircraft guided missile, worked on the principle of "fire and forget", i.e. even simple target maneuvers provided a high probability of evading missiles.

Of interest is the assessment of one of the specialists, for obvious reasons, extremely tough and emotional.

... no one is interested in how, in fact, these, no doubt, excellent missiles will fly in the absence of a radio correction line and disgusting target designation from "Fourke" ... So to speak, according to the "fire and forget" scheme. About what!!!!!!! About the goal? Or a rocket? ... the developers of the air defense missile system diligently bypass all sharp corners, such as: "How will your missile defense system see the target in case of target designation errors in the region of 1 degree?" ... Answer: he will see ... Etc.

It was written back in 2006!

Those. all the catastrophic consequences of such a replacement for the air defense of the corvette by officials were immediately understood, but "We will not fight with anyone ... Corvette is needed in order to show the flag ..."

In this situation, the air defense of the corvette became a very good artillery radar "Puma", which actually provided target designation for the "Reduta" (through the BIUS "Sigma"). It is clear that this option was actually a "crutch"; The 360-degree engagement zone of the "Redoubt" was "cut" to the small sector of the "Puma", the channeling of the air defense missile system sharply decreased, the working time increased, and artillery could be used only according to the data of optical sighting devices, despite the fact that the gun of this ship could well used in repelling a missile or air strike.


Fourke, Monolith, Puma and a metal mast creating a "blind sector" in the stern

The tests of the head corvette clearly showed all the problems of the Fourke, but instead of replacing it with the Positive-M, the Navy got involved in a scam to develop a "promising" integrated tower-mast complex (IBMK) "Zaslon", and an organization that did not have any experience in such developments. Subsequent events clearly show that the "justification" for this was far from "technical."

The IBMK, which has not passed the tests and has not shot down a single air target so far, was installed on the last ships of Project 20380 (ie, we actually have not “ships for the fleet”, but “ships for the IBMK”).


Corvette "Aldar Tsydenzhapov" with IBMK. There are suspicions that it will take a long time to successfully hit an air target with this ship. And its price would unpleasantly surprise anyone


The degree of "adequacy" of the development of the IBMK and its accompaniment by the Navy and the Ministry of Defense (DOGOZ) clearly shows such an example that, despite the critical problem of the missile defense missile system for the "Reduta" (on the "rake" of which the Navy "with rapture" x), the installation of the RC for the IBMK was not planned. As the specialists of Zaslon JSC said at IMDS-2000 about this: “The customer did not order this for us”.

That is, the corvette with the IBMK is obviously unable to shoot down maneuverable targets.

From the article by A.V. Zhukov "On the issue of substantiating the requirements for the radar for detecting targets of the shipborne air defense system of the near border" (magazine TsNII VK "Marine Radioelectronics", No. 4, 2004):
... for missiles with a seeker, the use of SOCs with coarse target designation will lead to a chaotic survey of missiles along the stream of targets, and, consequently, the skipping of individual targets without firing.

As for the cost of the IBMK "Zaslon" itself, then, according to experts, it is "close to the cost of the entire head corvette." In general, taking into account such "guidance" and "support" from the Ministry of Defense and the Navy, it is even surprising that the "Zaslon" was so "cheap".

However, the appetite comes with eating. And a "new innovative project 20386" appears. How and with what “tail of uncomfortable questions” (to which the Navy was never able to answer anything intelligible)? Read the articles about it "Worse than a crime. Construction of project 20386 corvettes is a mistake" и "Corvette 20386. Continuation of the scam"... It should be noted that these articles had a great resonance, and among the consequences of the second of them, information appeared about the development of the missile defense missile system for the Corvette "Redut" and an emergency reworking of project 20386 began. But that's another story.

There are also questions about the AK-630M anti-aircraft guns installed on the corvette in the amount of two units.

Today their real efficiency is very low, and their developer himself writes about this directly.

From the article by A.V. Zhukov "On the effectiveness of naval artillery installations in repelling anti-ship missiles":

... the answer to the question about the low efficiency of the existing domestic artillery complex AK-630M is in a completely different plane. ... In the AK-630M complex, the quality measurement system, gun mount and fire control system MR-123 MTK 201 are made in the form of four independent posts and are located at different seats ... Separate placement of the gun mount and control system in the AK-630M leads to large firing errors from for the impossibility to take into account the deformation of the ship's hull and inaccuracies in the correction of the parallax between the posts. Shooting errors reach 6 mrad instead of 2 mrad in the "Goalkeeper" complex.
... a multi-point scheme is sometimes offered in domestic complexing systems. Obviously, the effectiveness of artillery fire in this case will be low, which will discredit not only the caliber of the shells, but also the benefits of gun mounts in the short-range air defense system ...
Only a single-post artillery complex with a 30-mm installation and a full-size all-weather control system, radar and optical-electronic (heat-television), will ensure the high efficiency of the nearest border of the ship's air defense.



A blind sector in the stern of the mast, anti-aircraft guns are not the most effective today, and the firing sectors could be better

Air defense is the most "difficult" problem of this ship, it reduces its combat stability during an air or missile strike to almost zero. It must be solved, and on new, not yet built ships, it can be solved with "little blood" - quickly, inexpensively, and, as S.K. Shoigu, - "without OCD."

Solving the problem of air defense of corvettes


In fact, today we have three fundamentally different air defense systems for a small displacement ship:

1. "Redoubt" (all-round shelling, the largest engagement zone and channel, but the inability to defeat maneuvering targets, extremely expensive missiles and the problem of missing targets in a dense salvo).

2. "Pantsir-M" (cheap missiles, but problems with the defeat of maneuvering targets and especially - the acute meteorological dependence of the complex).

3. "Tor-FM" ("machine for shooting down targets", but with significant restrictions on the sector and range of the affected area).

Objectively speaking, not a single air defense missile system separately provides reliable air defense (and this "swan, cancer, and pike" is a clear example of the "quality" of "scientific" support for the development of the Navy today). Ideally, an integrated system is needed, with the ability to upgrade previously built ships and provide them with reliable air defense.

The problem of hitting maneuvering targets for the "Redoubt" is treated simply: by installing a radio correction channel for missiles, technically it is possible and must be done by the Navy yesterday (but it has not yet been done).

In fact, we have a situation that, due to the dense "shish kebab" (a term used by experts to describe an anti-ship missile strike), the approach of an anti-ship missile system with a standard anti-ship missile system “Harpoon”, due to the absence of the “Redoubt” RC, deliberately misses targets (anti-ship missiles) on board. Those. Air defense of the corvette with "Redoubt" against the salvo of even old "Harpoons" is obviously not provided. Taking into account the arrival of the new LRASM anti-ship missiles from the so-called partners (with much less visibility and capture range of the missile defense missile system), the situation is even worse.

For the "near zone" air defense, of course, you need a good all-weather firing radar with "tight control" of the situation - targets and missiles fired and their radio correction. This approach is implemented in ZRAK "Pantsir-M", however, with a very acute issue of meteorological dependence (taking into account the mm-range of the "Pantsir" firing radar).

The old "surveyor" "Pantsir" became the naval "Fourke" (with all its problems). On the new "Pantsir" they switched to a shorter wavelength range ("long centimeters"), but the feasibility of such a range for sea conditions raises questions (especially considering the "threat of LRASM).

As a result, the placement of the Pantsir-M ZRAK on the corvette is currently impossible and impractical. It is impossible to allow such a situation when the ship's air defense "ends" with the onset of bad weather (and this is exactly the case with the "Pantsir").

Corvettes that will go into battle
Kamchatka cyclone. In such weather, "Pantsir-M" is practically incapable of combat

At the same time, the question is very acute (including for the RTOs of project 22800) to replace the millimeter shooting radar "Pantsir" with a radar of at least a 2-cm range. Life will make you do it anyway (and God forbid, that would not be a bloody combat experience). There are compact and efficient radar stations with "short centimeters" that reliably operate on inconspicuous targets in the drive layer.

Corvettes, however, need a quick fix. And it is.

The main thing is to return to the "Positive-M" surveillance radar, originally planned for corvettes. For target designation of missile weapons - "Mineral" (with passive HEADLIGHTS, as on project 22800), for artillery - radar "Puma".

A similar composition of weapons was installed on the first MRK of project 22800, and these design solutions of the "Karakurt" may well be taken for the new corvettes, especially since they are much more successful than on the project 20380 (for example, the "blind sector" of the surveillance radar in the stern has been eliminated) ... In addition, it will improve inter-ship unification.


MRK project 22800 "Karakurt" - almost the same radar, which is needed, pay attention to the radio-transparent insert in the mast. No blind spots

Of course, it is necessary to install radio correction equipment, but this trouble of all corvettes must be eliminated comprehensively for all ships with "Redoubt" and separately from the contract of JSC "ASZ".

Taking into account the high cost of the 9M100 missile defense system, and, most importantly, the fact that in the series, each 9M100 missile launcher means an unreleased 9M96 missile defense system (taking into account the fact that 9M96 are extremely valuable and important for the air defense of the Navy and the country, and they are needed in the largest possible series), it is highly advisable to replace the 9M100 missiles with the 9M338K radio command missiles (with the installation of a control system based on the "Torah"). This solution also solves the acute problems of "bare stern" for the corvettes of the previous construction.

Issue 9M338K should be considered in the order of subsequent modernization, and not a future contract of ASZ JSC.

Offensive weapon


S. Shoigu earlier in one of his speeches voiced the need to increase the number of warships with the "Caliber" missile system. Alas, the project 20380 corvette is not equipped with it. A strange situation arises when we are building small, less than 1000 tonnes of displacement, RTOs capable of using "Calibers" (and, when the firing system is refined, both "Onyxes" and "Zircons"), and large and multipurpose corvettes, which are incapable of this.

It is known that one of the initiators of the mass introduction of the KRO "Caliber" in the Navy is President V. Putin. It is also known that a series of six corvettes, which are planned to be built at the ASZ, will be built on the personal instructions of the president.

In such a situation, it would be logical if the new corvettes were armed with missiles of the Caliber family. For this, it is necessary that instead of project 20380 with a changed composition of electronic weapons (another radar), the ships of project 20385, with the same proposed radar (with "Positive-M"), would be laid according to the finished working design documentation (with minimal changes).


Above 20380, below 20385. In the latter, instead of KRO "Uran" used UKSK with vertical launch units 3S14

Firstly, there will be no difference between 20380 and 20385 in terms of the complexity of construction for the NEA. The ships are in many respects similar, partially unified, the documentation is ready.

Secondly, the construction of just such ships corresponds to the correct position of V. V. Putin and S. K. Shoigu in terms of saturating the fleet with carriers of the Caliber missiles.

Thirdly, such a solution allows in the future to refuse from duplicating such corvettes in terms of the capabilities of the class of ships - MRK, and, accordingly, save money on this. Now each corvette will be able to replace the MRK when striking ground targets.

Fourthly, equipping the corvette with a 3S14 vertical launch installation will allow the use of anti-submarine missiles (PLR) from it.

The latter, taking into account the catastrophic state in which the ship is aviation and the fact that the Ka-27 helicopters, after the so-called modernization, can be considered combat-ready only conditionally, are the only "long arm" of the corvette that allows them to strike an enemy submarine found at the detection range limit of the sonar complex. A corvette without submarines and with our helicopters is a target for submarines.

He, but with a PLR, becomes a hunter, not a prey. Thus, in order to provide corvettes with real combat capability in our reality, it is necessary to move from project 20380 to 20385 with a changed composition of the radar complex.

Some other questions


For solving other (multipurpose tasks) side boats are very important, incl. with the possibility of using unmanned boats (BEC). Unfortunately, the project 20380 corvettes have launching devices for boats that cannot be used in stormy conditions, and ineffective boats. The presence of an "admiral's boat" on the corvette (instead of a worker) causes some bewilderment. The BL-680 boat has a number of serious shortcomings (see the article "Boat scam"), the main thing is that it is impossible to create an effective BEC on its basis.

Replacing these boats and SPU with modern ones is possible and extremely urgent, but here it is necessary to understand that a boat + SPU is a single complex on a ship. Without an effective SPU, the use of boats in stormy conditions is impossible, while the mass of such an SPU can be 1,5-2 the mass of the boat itself.

In the part of hydroacoustics, a BUGAS installation with the longest antenna is required.

The deadlines for the new corvettes are very tough (the delivery of the entire series must meet within the framework of the current GPV), funding is extremely limited, so it is necessary to clearly divide what the Navy needs to do with corvettes "in general" and specifically with ships under the declared state contract with AO ASZ, and first of all, the question is under the "ASZ" contract.

Obviously, question number 1 now is the replacement of the radar system with a combat-ready one: without it, the corvette will be nothing more than a target, and not only for submarines.

Question # 2 - the decision to install the UKSK, i.e. construction of a series according to project 20385.

At the same time, a decrease in the cost of the radar complex (and many times in this case) will allow to pay for the armament of the corvette with "Caliber" and other missiles used from the 3S14 UVP, including PLR, with a general reduction in the price of the entire ship compared to 20380 with the installed IBMK. Such ships will not only be more combat-ready than the usual 20380, not only better armed than the 20380, but also cheaper.

Another solution to reduce the cost may be the replacement of the composite superstructure with a steel one (hopes for a significant reduction due to composites of the ESR superstructure of corvettes were not confirmed on production ships).

You cannot miss the opportunity to reduce the cost of a ship without reducing its combat capabilities.

Conclusion


Speaking about the disadvantages of corvettes, we must also mention the good: the industry (including the NEA) has done a great job of bringing this project into a combat-ready state. So, on the last corvette handed over by the ASZ, "Gromok", those shortcomings from which the Baltic corvettes and partly "Perfect" suffered.

On the ship, almost everything is working, the reliability of the 100-mm gun has been brought to an acceptable level, the exchange of information in the group is working, the main power plant has been brought up. The ships of the project 20380 began to confidently navigate the distant sea zone.

Questions remain only on repelling missile strikes, and another radar will solve them.

It is necessary, while preserving the positive experience of fine-tuning these ships, which the NEA has today, to solve the problems mentioned above. According to experts in the field of shipbuilding, only the replacement of the radar and the abandonment of composites in favor of steel will reduce the cost of the ship by 25-30%, while increasing its combat capabilities. There are no objective obstacles to this.

This means that this must be done as quickly as possible.
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Articles from this series:
A victory of common sense: the corvettes are back! Bye for the pacific
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  1. Sahalinets
    Sahalinets 17 August 2020 07: 01 New
    13
    Well, the question was obviously like this - either to build at least something, or not to build anything and completely ruin the industry due to the complete loss of personnel.
    And the trouble with weapons is still Soviet - each developer shoves his own. But there is also a Soviet remedy - to appoint a specific person to be responsible for the project as a whole and to answer seriously, and not as it is now - with the transition to another, no less lucrative job.
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 17 August 2020 07: 58 New
      +8
      Quote: Sahalinets
      Well, the question was obviously like this - either to build at least something, or not to build anything and completely ruin the industry due to the complete loss of personnel.

      THE QUESTION OBVIOUSLY IS TOMORROW OUR SHIPS WILL GO TO BATTLE.
    2. arkadiyssk
      arkadiyssk 17 August 2020 09: 50 New
      -13
      And so you are not losing the industry? Like this tiny order for 6 corvettes will help the ASZ survive? Where did this ecstasy come from - Ura Shoigu gave money! We gave an order for corvettes!
      Just count: the ASZ has been building a corvette for 5 years, i.e. this order is for 10 years. The corvette costs 15 billion. 7.5 billion a year will go to them in the budget. 4000 employees and if you dream up and accept 100 tr. per person salary with all taxes, it turns out that the plant spends only 5 billion a year on payroll. But the corvette has a prime cost (at least half of the price) - the cost of equipment that needs to be given to subcontractors, the cost of metal. Whatever one may say, this order does not need to be happy, but to scream in pain, tk. even with it, the plant runs into guaranteed debts of 3-4 billion a year. This means that there will not be any super specialist welders there, but there will be slaves on a black salary of 40 tr. there will be left-handed firms subchikov that would not pay taxes and there will be corvettes of the same quality. :(
      1. Sahalinets
        Sahalinets 17 August 2020 10: 37 New
        +7
        Believe it or not, the Russian budget is not rubber. Although if you are personally ready to give your income to the Ministry of Defense, then we are all for it! wink
        1. antivirus
          antivirus 17 August 2020 12: 41 New
          0
          if the truth is told here - to the prosecutor, if on the contrary: a difficult, viscous struggle for an ideal - fans at work, lobbyists for individual decisions.
        2. unknown
          unknown 23 August 2020 07: 33 New
          +1
          It is necessary to introduce a new fashion for oligarchs, not for yachts, but for corvettes and frigates for the Russian fleet.
          1. timokhin-aa
            23 August 2020 09: 32 New
            +2
            Incidentally, this is possible. Corvette URO "Vladimir Potanin". I would not be surprised if some would agree. But it’s hard even for an oligarch to ditch 20 yards of cash at once.
            We need cheaper ships if we want to do that.
      2. Tuzik
        Tuzik 17 August 2020 11: 27 New
        11
        I was always shocked by the construction time, I judge by oil platforms, which are larger in displacement, and are being built by private companies. The body, np, which is much more complicated in geometry, is welded in a maximum of six months, the inner tube is crammed even faster, since half of the dimensions are installed during the welding of the body. From here, save in the payroll, one thing you will pay 5 years salary for one object, another thing half a year, and the ph is part of the cost of the ship. And this is what we rivet so quickly np. And the Chinese rivet theirs probably even faster, I give 4 months for them to go to a frigate, Why do we have a boat of 5-10 years in 2 ct? do? It seems to me that we need to deal with this, either it is not the complete competence of the management (namely, the planning of work), or sawing, or just sabotage. By the way, these effective managers, daughters, sons, who come to manage complex production enterprises, are enraged, and they themselves have not even seen gas welding, and the head rots from the head, and such a PPC begins at the enterprise, marriage, losses, leaving valuable personnel, recruiting employees for ad from asia.
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 17 August 2020 15: 51 New
          +5
          Quote: Tuzik
          the hull np, which is much more complicated in geometry, is welded in a maximum of six months, the inner tube is crammed even faster, since half of the dimensions are installed during the welding of the hull. From here, save in the payroll, one thing you will pay 5 years salary for one object, another thing half a year, and the ph is part of the cost of the ship. And this is what we rivet so quickly np. And the Chinese rivet their probably even faster, I give 4 months for them to go to a frigate, Why do we have a boat of 5-10 years in 2 ct? do? It seems to me that we need to deal with this, either it is not the complete competence of the management (namely, the planning of work), or sawing, or just sabotage.

          There is a good example of HOW you can work with a NORMAL organization - "Pella"
          Head 22800 was made faster than head 1234 in the USSR !!!
        2. Strannik96
          Strannik96 17 August 2020 22: 13 New
          +2
          The fact is that drill ships, drilling platforms, pipe-layers are stuffed with basically the same systems: Kongsberg - positioning, rarely Convertible, Wärtsila, Siemens, Alstom, ABB - drives. Diesel - Wärtsila, CAT, Azipod: ABB, Rolls-royce. Siemens, ABB - plc. By the way, two drilling platforms for Gazflot have an underwater part - they were built in Vyborg, and then equipment was supplied to Korea
      3. Fizik M
        Fizik M 17 August 2020 15: 54 New
        +3
        Quote: arkadiyssk
        Will this tiny order for 6 corvettes help ASZ survive?

        This is not "tiny" it is BEFORE 2027, and the delivery of ships.
        Obviously, there will be more orders for the next GPV.
        Quote: arkadiyssk
        Hurray Shoigu gave money!

        The money was given by the Supreme Commander (his order), but Shoigu was clearly not happy with it (see video)
        Quote: arkadiyssk
        So there will be no super specialists there.

        They ALREADY IS. Delivery of orders 20380 has ALREADY shown it.
        Plus, REAL actions are now being taken to ensure that the enterprise is not so much "rescued" as it is to make it the industry leader!
  2. Disant
    Disant 17 August 2020 07: 15 New
    +3
    great double photo for comparison! what you need for dummies.
    Explain what prevents to lick the location of the towers of the masts of the enemy? Or are they, too, in the fog and rain, heavenly?
  3. bayard
    bayard 17 August 2020 07: 17 New
    +2
    If such an arrangement for the future Amur corvettes is chosen, it will be a great boon for the Navy.
    And even with cost savings.
    Upset the Pantsir-M radar ... did not expect such a blunder from its designers ...
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 17 August 2020 08: 01 New
      +7
      Quote: bayard
      Upset the Pantsir-M radar ... did not expect such a blunder from its designers ...

      open any directory and see attenuation for this range (it is "close to 8mm")

      but we got into it because at one time there were problems with working in the drive layer (for mm everything is OK there) ...
      only now, a long time ago, they did see radars that do it successfully, and even in complex GMU (which is not provided by mm radar)
      1. bayard
        bayard 17 August 2020 16: 03 New
        +2
        At one time, I served in the ground air defense - air defense of the Country (still the USSR), and at that time they did not intervene in the millimeter range for ground radars, only aviation was going. But for so many years to deal with the topic of marine radar (Pantsir-M) and not bother checking the selected range in conditions of fog, cloudiness, sea dust, just high humidity ... this is amazing.
        But it is already familiar to the modern government and the Army.
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 17 August 2020 16: 20 New
          +3
          Quote: bayard
          But for so many years to deal with the topic of marine radar (Pantsir-M) and not bother checking the selected range in conditions of fog, cloudiness, sea dust, just high humidity ... this is amazing.

          Everyone knew everything. ORIGINAL.
          mm-range is VERY GOOD, for example, for the OMS AK-630M where it is ... NO !!!
          1. bayard
            bayard 17 August 2020 16: 30 New
            +2
            Quote: Fizik M
            Everyone knew everything. ORIGINAL.
            mm-range VERY GOOD, for example, for the AK-630M control system

            This means that such a range cannot be selected as the main radar, but only for target designation in the near zone. We have a northern country, so fogs, high humidity, low clouds are the standard conditions for combat services ... However, it seems to have been offered initially for the air defense of the near zone of cruisers and destroyers ...
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 17 August 2020 16: 33 New
              +1
              Quote: bayard
              This means that such a range cannot be selected as the main radar, but only for target designation in the near zone

              on the Soviet "Lion" it was - and cm and mm
              1. Cyril G ...
                Cyril G ... 17 August 2020 19: 19 New
                +3
                Yes, two ranges. Switched manually.
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 17 August 2020 17: 59 New
          +1
          Quote: bayard
          At one time I served in the ground air defense - air defense of the Country (still the USSR), and at that time they did not intervene in the millimeter range for ground radars, only aviation was going.

          EMNIP, they wrote about the problems of millimeter-wave radars back in the late 80s in the ZVO - in relation to military air defense. They say that the radars are accurate and small-sized, but "short-range" - and you need to very carefully choose the operating frequencies in order to stay within the limits, EMNIP, of two "windows" in which the attenuation is minimal. Or put them where short range is not so critical.
          1. Fizik M
            Fizik M 17 August 2020 20: 27 New
            +1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            EMNIP, two "windows" in which the attenuation is minimal

            our ZRAK in the "long window", but this "windows" ATMOSPHERIC
            but if even a small drizzle is added to the normal atmosphere, then a "fur animal" comes to the mm-channels
          2. bayard
            bayard 17 August 2020 23: 15 New
            +1
            I remember reading. but more came across about the "mm" range for the radar of fighters (USA, NATO) and what hopes were pinned.
      2. Shopping
        Shopping Mall 18 August 2020 09: 18 New
        +1
        Quote: Fizik M
        Quote: bayard
        Upset the Pantsir-M radar ... did not expect such a blunder from its designers ...

        open any directory and see attenuation for this range (it is "close to 8mm")

        but we got into it because at one time there were problems with working in the drive layer (for mm everything is OK there) ...
        only now, a long time ago, they did see radars that do it successfully, and even in complex GMU (which is not provided by mm radar)


        How strong is the attenuation? This I mean, whether the complex will be completely "blind" or a certain area of ​​work will be preserved.

        The detection range for Pantsir-SM is declared at 75 kilometers, damage is 40 kilometers. It can be assumed that the range of destruction is limited primarily by the energy characteristics of the missiles. Accordingly, even taking into account the influence of weather conditions, is it possible that the excess power of the Pantsir radar will be able to ensure the range of the air defense missile system at a distance of 15-20 kilometers?
  4. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 17 August 2020 07: 46 New
    +2
    Thanks for the detailed and explanatory article. Even not a sailor could understand.
  5. Bez 310
    Bez 310 17 August 2020 10: 07 New
    +1
    "... will reduce the cost of the ship by 25-30% ..."
    And who needs it?

    I see, in the comments they abruptly switched
    to discuss the capabilities of our aircraft in
    armed conflicts, and even war.
    Well, this is a very interesting topic, but in
    due to the fact that there is little objective data, yes
    and everyone is bored with reasoned debate,
    I propose to go straight to the insults!
  6. Fizik M
    Fizik M 17 August 2020 10: 36 New
    +5
    Quote: Bez 310
    I see, in the comments sharply re-spoken to the discussion

    They have not "crossed over" to anything.
    An obvious bot with tons of flooding appeared and real THEME and ABSTRACTS went to the "background"
    1. Bez 310
      Bez 310 17 August 2020 11: 30 New
      -6
      Quote: Fizik M
      An explicit bot with tons of flooding appeared

      I do not know...
      This "bot" raises interesting questions,
      true, not quite on the topic of the article.
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 17 August 2020 15: 49 New
        +1
        Quote: Bez 310
        This "bot" raises interesting questions,
        true, not quite on the topic of the article.

        the questions are interesting, but here is the bot's level of discussion - "speeches from an armored car"
        so the fact that this flood was demolished - they did the right thing - the real meaning of it is 0%
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 17 August 2020 11: 52 New
      +3
      On the topic - I have a question about the OMS of shells, but to ask it, you need to see something, so I can only formulate it in the evening
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 17 August 2020 12: 19 New
        +3
        In my opinion, in the issue of weapons, one type of UVP should be available - UKSK. However, you need to have them of different lengths.
        In this case, all available missiles should be able to load into all existing UVP. That is, the unification of all connectors and so on ...
        1. garri-lin
          garri-lin 17 August 2020 12: 47 New
          +6
          This is the case today. This is no longer suitable for tomorrow. Size constraints restrict development. It is necessary to come to a unified large-sized cell where the TPK of missiles of any size will be recruited. And by reason, a military analogue of usb has long been needed. So that both food and infa through one time.
          1. Fizik M
            Fizik M 17 August 2020 16: 24 New
            +2
            Quote: garri-lin
            This is the case today. This is no longer suitable for tomorrow. Size constraints restrict development.

            for the entire foreseeable future of the cell size of our UKSK - "for the eyes and for the ears"
            but the Americans, yes, with the "size" Mk41 flew ...
            1. garri-lin
              garri-lin 17 August 2020 16: 31 New
              0
              Anti-aircraft TPKs, several pieces per cell. And if without a cell, then even more is possible. BC increases while maintaining the size. As for Zircon, it sometimes surfaced that the size limitation dragged out the development. And perhaps the rocket has risen in price. Didn't fit in. The performance characteristics did not correspond to the task.
              1. Fizik M
                Fizik M 17 August 2020 16: 35 New
                +1
                Quote: garri-lin
                emerged

                this is the most accurate word laughing
                ... as opposed to what actually happened according to "Zircon"
                1. garri-lin
                  garri-lin 17 August 2020 16: 57 New
                  0
                  And you just know what's there and how. At first, people with education and work experience did not believe that the declared performance characteristics could fit in this size. As an argument, why then Onyx is not so mega-cool.
                  1. Fizik M
                    Fizik M 17 August 2020 17: 09 New
                    0
                    Quote: garri-lin
                    work experience

                    trolls and balabols on internet forums?
                    Quote: garri-lin
                    the declared performance characteristics can be in this size will fit

                    doubts were;)
                    however, these requirements were with a "large margin" (and another good question - are they redundant !!!), so there was an opportunity to "roll back"
                    but - "it worked"
                    Zircon has problems, but in a completely different plane
                    1. garri-lin
                      garri-lin 17 August 2020 17: 25 New
                      0
                      Fly 600+ km (according to GDP, more than a thousand, but this is not accurate) at a speed of Mach 8+. And carry 400 kg of warheads. And that's the size of Onyx. Well, a little more. This is a breakthrough. This is a huge step for the Russian military-industrial complex. And since you are talking about problems, please explain which ones. Shoigu seems to have reported that the tests are over.
                      1. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 17 August 2020 17: 28 New
                        0
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        Shoigu seems to have reported that the tests are over.

                        yes
                        however, he did not specify WHAT tests laughing
                        open GOST RV 203, there it is ("what are the tests and stages" written wink
                      2. garri-lin
                        garri-lin 17 August 2020 17: 58 New
                        0
                        I already know what kind of trials there are. And it was clear that the tests were not final. Not state acceptance. But if the problems would not be just advertised. So everything is as planned.
                      3. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 17 August 2020 20: 26 New
                        +1
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        But if the problems would not be just advertised. So everything is like

                        a very naive view of reality laughing
                        as an example, I can cite the same corvettes, about the "successful firing" of which the officers "informed the media" sometimes even in cases when there was "work in the plan", but in fact the ships did not even leave the base belay
                      4. garri-lin
                        garri-lin 17 August 2020 21: 09 New
                        0
                        Well, if we take strategic important developments such as Poseidon or Sarmatian, the secrecy and dosage of information was respected. Zircon is a closely watched development. Lies and inaccuracies are fraught.
                      5. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 17 August 2020 21: 26 New
                        +1
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        Well, if we take strategic important developments such as Poseidon or Sarmat, the secrecy and dosage of information was respected

                        Are you talking about the "massive coverage" of "intimate details" of the topic on procurement.gov and publications that have passed all the required "first departments"? laughing
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        are watching closely. Lies and inaccuracies are fraught.

                        belay
                        Well, if VVP said "cast iron" about luminium, then so be it - "cast iron" no
                      6. garri-lin
                        garri-lin 17 August 2020 22: 16 New
                        0
                        I meant that readers and news "watchers" are watching.
                      7. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 17 August 2020 22: 22 New
                        0
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        I meant that readers and news "watchers" are watching.

                        yes not only "follow"
                        see for example what was arranged in the thread about Status-6 on the Courage forum laughing
                        and on VO, by the way, they "blazed", so after 800 comments to my article "Status scam" the administration closed the comments angry
                      8. garri-lin
                        garri-lin 18 August 2020 00: 03 New
                        0
                        The status was a very thoughtful stuffing.
                      9. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 18 August 2020 00: 05 New
                        +1
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        The status was a very thoughtful stuffing.

                        it was not stuffing
                        read from A. Kolesnikov, he described it quite reliably
                        But not all laughing
                      10. garri-lin
                        garri-lin 18 August 2020 01: 58 New
                        0
                        I haven't read Kolesnikov's. But in general, let at least Vova personally say that it is not stuffing, I still don’t believe it. Too on time. Too precise. The consequences are too small for the perpetrators. Well, zhurnalyugi who have such a permit are not fools. They understand that the shavings will be removed from them to the very kocharyzhka.
                      11. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 18 August 2020 04: 05 New
                        +1
                        as it was, I (and not only me) said
                        and what to "believe" is the right of everyone
                      12. garri-lin
                        garri-lin 18 August 2020 10: 44 New
                        0
                        Have you personally been there? To know how it was?
                      13. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 18 August 2020 12: 00 New
                        0
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        And you personally

                        I personally ****** bully
                        but specifics on public resources will be superfluous
  • garri-lin
    garri-lin 17 August 2020 11: 27 New
    +3
    Thanks to the author for the work. Informative. Only one BUT is not necessary about Caliber. It is necessary about UKSK.
    1. Angry
      Angry 17 August 2020 14: 20 New
      -4
      You know, we cannot live without Calibers. Of course, one should not be deceived by this CD, but it is better that it is than it simply does not exist. Therefore, the thought comes that on the basis of pr.20380 corvettes it is possible to create a rocket ship, probably with half a hundred CR. That is, to create a purely shock corvette. How to do it? Of course, there are many options, but here's a dilettante look: 1- instead of the nasal VPU Reduta one or two UKSK. 2- instead of a hangar for an PLO helicopter, a few more ... maybe 4 UKSK? 3- VPU Reduta, to the helipad, type 20385 ... One Canadian grandfather, he drew something like that in the internet a few years ago. And such ships would be very, very popular in the DMZ as part of our ship formations, especially since there is a lot more that can be crammed into the UKSK ... "which our wise men have never dreamed of." One such could replace the Karakurt brigade. And how much stronger would be our tactical ship groups, say, consisting of one frigate, one PLO corvette and one such URO corvette ...
      1. garri-lin
        garri-lin 17 August 2020 14: 50 New
        +4
        Is the Arsenal ship the size of a corvette? Absolutely unnecessary. For such purposes, a larger hull with greater seaworthiness and autonomy is needed. And the body itself without missiles should cost a minimum.
  • Scharnhorst
    Scharnhorst 17 August 2020 12: 47 New
    +1
    I can understand the "dizziness of success" by the authors who received two formal replies from the MO, but further reading of the articles passing into an alternative reality is boring. Even Oleg Kaptsov gives more weighty arguments with numbers and calculations, examples from history, in an attempt to reasonably defend the need for armor protection on modern ships. An attempt on a corvette to surpass the "Arleigh Burke" air defense with "Aegis", with missiles with an active seeker and with radio correction is utopian. In PLO - a towed antenna, GAK, PLUR in 3S14, anti-torpedo protection at the level ... - Our BOD is only trying to be converted into a frigate and not the fact that it will end with success. Well, it is not accepted to criticize Putin for “The calibers on the corvette are not accepted - we approve for project 20385! to please corporate ambitions.
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 17 August 2020 12: 54 New
      +4
      Quote: Scharnhorst
      in the fleet, only air defense systems of land variants and design bureaus are effective, as it was in the Union,


      SAMs were unified. In fact, the air defense systems themselves were developed from scratch.

      Well, it is not accepted to criticize Putin for "Calibers on a corvette - approvals for pr. 20385!"

      Actually, he was just right
    2. timokhin-aa
      17 August 2020 14: 00 New
      +2
      I can understand the "dizziness of success" by the authors who received two formal replies from the MO


      and the series of ships that the authors sought.

      An attempt on a corvette to surpass the "Arleigh Burke" air defense with "Aegis", with missiles with an active seeker and with radio correction is utopian.


      And what's utopian here? Choose between a working air defense for a billion and a non-working one for 5+. Not working at all, in principle.
      So see?

      Even Oleg Kaptsov gives more weighty arguments with numbers and calculations, examples from history, in an attempt to reasonably defend the need for armor protection on modern ships.


      Isn't she there? On the Nimitz there are TENS OF THOUSAND TONS of this very "armor", just in a modern version. Let's say we also have something - where it makes sense in the rocket era and the technical ability to do it.

      Kaptsov simply does not know some of the details, that's all.
      1. Nemchinov Vl
        Nemchinov Vl 18 August 2020 01: 16 New
        0
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        And what's utopian here? Choose between a working air defense for a billion and a non-working one for 5+. Not working at all, in principle.
        /// there is clear and logical.
        it is not clear that:
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        1. "Redoubt" (all-round shelling, the largest engagement zone and channel, but the inability to defeat maneuvering targets, extremely expensive missiles and the problem of missing targets in a dense salvo).
        2. "Pantsir-M" (cheap missiles, but problems with the defeat of maneuvering targets and especially - the acute meteorological dependence of the complex).
        3. "Tor-FM" ("machine for shooting down targets", but with significant restrictions on the sector and range of the affected area).
        ?!
        and why option 4. "Calm-1" was not considered. which for a given corvette would be the most optimal ?! Both for the price and for the effective range of the SAM ?!
        You can save 20380/5 by replacing "Redoubt" with "Shtil-1", and by arming the PLUR (for example, through the UKSK) !!.
        Or it will replace it with 11664 (on the GAK and GEM that were run in at 20380), with the UKSK and IMMEDIATELY Shtil-1, not Redut (!)... Without repeating mistakes so to speak. ?!
        1. timokhin-aa
          18 August 2020 08: 25 New
          -2
          Are you aware that Calm isn't just about launchers?
          1. Nemchinov Vl
            Nemchinov Vl 18 August 2020 12: 04 New
            0
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Are you aware that Calm isn't just about launchers?
            Yes. that's why when you wrote in the article -
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            In fact, today we have a small displacement ship three fundamentally different air defense systems:
            , the question arises, why did Alexander stubbornly fail to mention fourth ?!, namely "Calm-1" .... ?! Perhaps he is afraid that in order to "enter" let's say the same 24 cells PU 3s-90 (Calm), and at least 8 cells UKSK (for the possibility of using PLUR / PKR), .... will have to slightly alter the original hull architecture for weapons systems 20380 ... and to a lesser extent 20385 ?!
            And then the most visible becomes, the fact that the proposed now (but not yet fully formed, i.e., more flexible in essence, outline project 11664), correctly setting the requirements of the Navy to the Zelenodolsk Design Bureau, (making work on errors 20380 ...(!) and taking into account the jambs made in it), you can get exactly what you need for OVR (PLO in BMZ) ?!... That is, it is the Zelenodolsk corvette 11664, which they have already offered to Putin (it seems in the Crimea last year). At the power plant, run-in on 20380/5, with the same GAS "Zarya-2", and preferably with a towed low-frequency range antenna, already with the UKSK (as the design bureau and the plant initially proposed), with the Shtil-1 air defense system, with
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            surveillance radar "Positive-M". For target designation of missile weapons - "Mineral" (with passive HEADLIGHTS, as on project 22800), for artillery - radar "Puma".
            so that initially the project is not unnecessarily - "overloaded" by unnecessarily expensive electronics, but on the contrary, was maximally unified with the already produced units of the fleet ?!
            Yes ... and there below, Mr. Klimov, laid out a diagram of the alleged paired uses of the IPC, which clearly "familiar features are visible", just from the genus Zelenodolsk "Cheetah".... ?! hi
            1. timokhin-aa
              18 August 2020 20: 17 New
              -2
              There just another ship will have to be done
              1. Nemchinov Vl
                Nemchinov Vl 18 August 2020 23: 05 New
                0
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                There just another ship will have to be done
                The Navy and need another ship, as follows from your article - capable (!)And not 20380/5 in their existing view ?!. А... with a sane and capable air defense system. Б... with the possibility of using PLUR / RCC (maximally unified, and that means with UKSK).
                1. timokhin-aa
                  19 August 2020 08: 16 New
                  -2
                  "Other" in the sense of a 100% new project. This is unrealistic right now.
                  1. Nemchinov Vl
                    Nemchinov Vl 24 August 2020 01: 40 New
                    -1
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    "Other" in the sense of a 100% new project.
                    it is 100%, will not (shouldn't be NEW), as GEM (!), GAK (!), UKSK (!), will already be the same - WORKED at 20380 (!).... and you you definitely understand this (!).... The question is in the placement of the air defense system (!), and its actual efficiency (!)... Is not it ?! ., And if we are talking about ours with you (not even a dispute / discussion), then you dear, admitting - the actual incapacity of 20380, you yourself preferred to disown from making CRITICAL changes into project 20380 in order to make it truly capable of implementing functions is OVR (!).... that is, roughly speaking, we went according to the principle - "anyhow it's better than nothing"....?! but problems in fact it DOES NOT SOLVE !!!!! and 1166X (as you call it), apparently from "other office of interest", and you, together with Klimov jam, (turning attention away from him), calling conditionally - unpromising ?!.. That is, I don't understand what is rightfully called PATRIOTISM, and what is METEORISM, due to the defense of specific interests, for example KB "Almaz", and not KB "Zelenodolsk" ?!.... !!!! Alexander, you are in the subject ?!
                    1. timokhin-aa
                      24 August 2020 09: 52 New
                      0
                      You are more careful with expressions, I am not a doctor for you to pass all this through yourself. I have presented the arguments against Calm.
                      Information on 1166X is classified up to the project number, you can't write anything about it at all, I described the pros and cons of the transition from the 20380/20385 platform to the Zelenodolsk corvette in a separate article, what else do you need?
                      Exhale, or pour it all out to someone else.
                    2. Fizik M
                      Fizik M 24 August 2020 13: 35 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Nemchinov Vl
                      and 1166X (as you call it), apparently from "another office of interests", and you, together with Klimov, are jamming it (turning your attention away from him), conventionally calling it unpromising?! ..

                      Monsieur FUCK!
                      "Cheetah for the Navy" - PASSED, after the start of the SCAM with the UDC.
                      For there is NO TP, and today there is NO OPPORTUNITY to develop it in a short time.
                      "Cheetah for the Navy" strangled PERSONALLY MISTAKHOV.
                      PM
            2. Fizik M
              Fizik M 24 August 2020 13: 39 New
              +1
              Quote: Nemchinov Vl
              Yes ... and there below, Mr. Klimov, laid out a diagram of the alleged paired uses of the IPC, which clearly shows "familiar features", just from the Zelenodolsk "Cheetah" family ....?!

              Little Johnny, Klimov clearly wrote that what was possible and real a year or two ago (OVR corvette from ZPKB) is now FSE
    3. Fizik M
      Fizik M 17 August 2020 15: 46 New
      -1
      Quote: Scharnhorst
      An attempt to surpass the Arleigh Burke air defense system with the Aegis on a corvette,

      fool
      YOU are exactly carrying this ACHINA in a sober mind?
      Quote: Scharnhorst
      Well, it is not accepted to criticize Putin for "Caliber on the corvette

      YOU "burn" from the GDP?
      from the actual point of view, it was on his "kicks" that the Navy took the "Caliber"!
      Quote: Scharnhorst
      in the fleet, only air defense systems of land variants are effective

      DON'T BREAK SHOOT, IT HURTS HER !!!
      THE FLEET HAS NEVER BEEN "LANDLAND SAM", there was a unification of the SAM !!! but the hardware of these air defense systems was fundamentally different
    4. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 17 August 2020 18: 19 New
      +3
      Quote: Scharnhorst
      For myself, I concluded: only air defense systems of land variants and design bureaus are effective in the fleet as it was in the Union

      If the navy were land-based air defense systems, then the fleet did not have to put the "Gibka" on the "Kulakov" instead of the missing "Dagger". For the army has no problems with the Torahs.
  • kig
    kig 17 August 2020 13: 00 New
    0
    How not to remember 1937 ...
  • Angry
    Angry 17 August 2020 14: 04 New
    +3
    Well, that's a good objective article. And I am very glad that there is "light at the end of the tunnel." Thank you guys!
  • edsw
    edsw 17 August 2020 14: 47 New
    -5
    For 20380, the best option is the shell of m. I don't understand why the author so categorically declares that it is not all-weather. Well, seriously ... a new complex and it is not accepted as all-weather? Seriously?! This is nonsense, the head needs to be turned on sometimes, it would not even be accepted into service then.
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 17 August 2020 15: 30 New
      +7
      Quote: edsw
      For 20380, the best option is m.

      visually

      [/ Center]
      Quote: edsw
      Well, seriously ... a new complex and it is not accepted as all-weather? Seriously?! This is nonsense, the head needs to be turned on sometimes

      fool
      Delirium is now YOU! YOU did physics at school at all? Or did YOU graduate from it "with a certificate" (about "listening")? lol Or YOU have "google on coupons", and before talking nonsense on the forum YOU are not able to read elementary about the attenuation of EMW in the atmosphere, depending on hydrometeorological conditions?
      Even the last mongrels know about the mm-range of the "Pantsir" firing "lock"!
      1. edsw
        edsw 17 August 2020 15: 55 New
        -8
        That is, you are the only one here so smart, and there are only fools that they are adopting a non-all-weather complex? It's clear that the rook is broken, bring a new one
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 17 August 2020 16: 01 New
          +2
          Quote: edsw
          That is, you are the only one here so smart, and there are only fools that they are adopting a non-all-weather complex?

          fool
          boy, did you pass the PHYSICS at school?
          or just "smesharikov" looked? lol
          1. edsw
            edsw 17 August 2020 16: 44 New
            -5
            The level of intelligence of the interlocutor is visible. Right away "physics", "smeshariki" can be seen as a very "smart" specialist. If you cannot answer on the merits it is better to be silent.
      2. edsw
        edsw 17 August 2020 15: 59 New
        -5
        And someone else can throw me a link where they wilted that the shell is not all-weather? Those photos that you threw off can just as well throw off a photo of a certain goalkeeper and shout that all NATO ships do not have all-weather air defense. In general, since you are so smart, and you know the physics of primary classes why not in the design bureau or even cooler in the headquarters of the Navy? Everyone here is smart from their sofas.
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 17 August 2020 16: 02 New
          +2
          Quote: edsw
          In general, if you are so smart

          understandably ... "why don't you go in formation" lol
          Don't tear the trampoline, DOOR. laughing
          1. edsw
            edsw 17 August 2020 16: 38 New
            -3
            You have not answered an answer. Since you all know why you are here?
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 17 August 2020 16: 45 New
              -1
              Quote: edsw
              You have not answered an answer. Since you all know why you are here?

              Face about the table, two-handed man!
              1. edsw
                edsw 17 August 2020 16: 48 New
                -7
                Why do you almost shy away from answering? If you are smart and everyone knows why you are sitting here and not chopping the truth in the offices of the General Staff? Or you don’t know words other than "bad"? Unlike you, I learned physics for a long time, but you probably still have to))))
                1. Fizik M
                  Fizik M 17 August 2020 16: 58 New
                  +1
                  Quote: edsw
                  and not the truth uterus chop the offices of the General Staff?

                  why do you think so? the offices of the High Command and the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation are well known to me

                  Unlike you, I learned physics for a long time, but you probably still have to))))

                  fool
                  Monsieur, YOU are here in physics from your "pants" YOURSELF "REMOVED". PERSONALLY lol
                  1. edsw
                    edsw 17 August 2020 17: 08 New
                    -3
                    What are you carrying, what pants, from whom you took off)))) Okay, I started my discussion not with the fact that mm should see targets in any weather if you read carefully, but with the fact that the new complex should see targets in any weather. If not, then in my opinion this is at least strange
                  2. edsw
                    edsw 17 August 2020 17: 09 New
                    -3
                    And if you are so well "familiar" why are you here to prove the failure of the shell m, and not there?
                    1. Fizik M
                      Fizik M 17 August 2020 17: 17 New
                      +2
                      Quote: edsw
                      not there?

                      and there too laughing
                      by the way, many bosses were very and very unpleasantly surprised (they had time to forget physics)
                      1. edsw
                        edsw 17 August 2020 17: 28 New
                        -1
                        Okay. And how was a complex that is not all-weather adopted into service in the second decades of the 21st century?
                      2. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 17 August 2020 17: 59 New
                        0
                        Quote: edsw
                        And how was the complex that is not all-weather adopted into service in the second decades of the 21st century?

                        easily
                        and he is not the only one, see the same "Pine"
                      3. edsw
                        edsw 17 August 2020 18: 19 New
                        +1
                        And how is this problem solved in the West in short-range systems? The same RIM-116 with which many NATO ships are armed for a minute, most likely also has restrictions on use in difficult weather conditions (I take into account its infrared homing system).
                      4. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 17 August 2020 18: 45 New
                        0
                        Quote: edsw
                        And how is this problem solved in the West in short-range systems?

                        PGSN which "suffices" the anti-ship missile system for an operating seeker, and in the near zone of the target, the effectiveness of a small warhead is provided by the IR-seeker
                        this was RAM originally
                        then we added our "analogue of Flexible" (with a radar channel)
                        and then ... returned to the Phalanxes (on a number of ships)
                        Sparrows and standards with guidance have all the rules (there RL in the correct range)
                  3. bk0010
                    bk0010 17 August 2020 22: 20 New
                    +3
                    This is a very interesting story. In short, the armor was not made for the Russian Federation (in general), for the desert. Then they decided to sell it to someone else, but for this it was necessary that it was in service in the Russian Federation. The groundmen rested tightly - don't fucking say, let's not take this instead of Tunguska, and Torah is not a competitor at all. They rolled out a bunch of comments (
                    1) real results of firing tests showed a low possibility of a complex for firing targets that maneuver and fly with a heading parameter of more than 2-3 km
                    2) the possibility of firing at targets flying at speeds greater than 400 m / s has not been confirmed, although a speed equal to 1000 m / s is given in the technical characteristics of the complex
                    3) the maximum firing range of 20 km is provided for aerial targets flying at a speed of no more than 80 m / s (on the E-95 target), since the available overloads of SAMs at this range do not exceed 5 units.
                    4) the main disadvantage of a bicaliber missile ***** is the lack of an engine in the march stage of the SAM, as a result of which, within the declared damage range, the rocket will move with negative acceleration of the order of 50-30 m / s 2, which leads to the appearance of such non-linearities in the input signal missile control loop, which lead to an increase in errors of its guidance on actively maneuvering target
                    5) the capabilities of the complex to defeat the TBR, OTR and their warheads when using a hypersonic missile with a warhead weighing 4 kg have not been confirmed
                    6) the presence of only two methods of pointing missiles ***** (according to the three-point method; according to the half-straightening method) limits the capabilities of the complex to defeat various types of air-defense systems with difficult environmental conditions (maneuver, interference, NLC, a hovering helicopter, UAV, etc. d.).
                    7) The control system for the detonation of the warhead of a hypersonic SAM, functioning according to the signal from the SAM system in accordance with the established range difference between the target and the missile, can be effective only when the SAM is guided by ****** by the full straightening method, and when the SAM is guided by the "three points ”and half straightening only works when the target moves directly to the firing combat vehicle ZPRK
                    8) in the aforementioned last case, the effectiveness of hitting a target may turn out to be low due to the phenomenon of ricocheting of the striking elements of the combat chat, since in this case their velocity vector will be directed at a small angle to the target’s surface
                    9), effective coordination of missile defense missile equipment (the area of ​​operation of the non-contact target sensor, NDC and the area of ​​the strike of striking elements of warheads), as well as the prevention of the operation of NDC SAM missiles from the underlying surface when firing at the NLC, is not ensured
                    10) the influence of weather conditions (rain, fog, hydrometeors) on the reduction of target detection range for the developed millimeter wave range developed by the radar center is 10-50 times stronger than the variant of the air defense system with the centimeter wave range radar, and this drawback cannot be compensated for by the presence of air defense systems " Patsir-S1 "optoelectronic kaal for tracking the CC, due to the negative dependence of the latter on weather conditions
                    11) the large overall dimensions of BM ZRPK on a wheelbase, especially in height (in combat position 5,65 m), as well as the lack of armor protection of the fire set, equipment compartment (SOTs, SSSR, SUO) do not allow the use of air defense systems at the leading edge in combat and pre-battle formation covered forces
                    12) the dimensions of the BM ZPRK in the stowed position on the wheelbase (4, 374 m) do not allow transporting it by rail, since the permissible loading height (1T) is 3,8 m, while dismantling the equipment compartment and loading it onto the platform for transportation with the help of a special crane it takes 3 hours for one BM, and also requires the presence of a special crane and equipment.
                    Unloading and installation of the equipment compartment during railway transportation require the same labor costs (3 hours) and the presence of a special crane.
                    13) BM dimensions increase labor costs for the engineering equipment of the launching position in comparison with other air defense systems (air defense systems) of military air defense
                    14) the time of transferring the complex from traveling to combat when using the "OES Mode" (with a thermal imager) exceeds the stated 5 minutes (actually 8-9 minutes)
                    15) the loading time of the full ammunition with the help of TZM is quite large and is 25-30 minutes.
                    ). Finally managed to match Pantsir in the air defense. They began to finish it on the sly, now Pantsir-SM is coming out with an interesting range. But the range of operation of the radars, the bicaliber of the missile and the problems with the inefficiency of firing from the cannons remain.
                  4. sivuch
                    sivuch 19 August 2020 11: 29 New
                    0
                    Well, let's put some of the comments were just far-fetched. Let's say, about the maximum target speed of 400 m / s, it's just a lie. Loading the BC at Tunguska - the same 25-30 minutes and do not chirp, and I remember that at the Tors it is no better. (With complete impossibility of loading manually)
                    And some of the comments to the Moroccan Shell, in principle, do not apply.
  • timokhin-aa
    17 August 2020 16: 13 New
    +2
    And here is the author, it's physics!
    1. edsw
      edsw 17 August 2020 16: 39 New
      -1
      I do not argue, but it seemed strange to me that now a complex with such restrictions is being adopted ... after all, in this case, I went to resume the production of a dagger
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 17 August 2020 17: 01 New
        0
        Quote: edsw
        ... because in that case I went to resume the release of the dagger

        AGAIN
        AT THE PANTSIR MM-RANGE OF THE SHOOTING LOCKER STILL FROM THE BOARD
        ORIGINAL!
        1. edsw
          edsw 17 August 2020 17: 59 New
          0
          The shell has its own radar guidance mm range 1PC2-1E "Helmet", and not from the dagger
          1. Fizik M
            Fizik M 17 August 2020 20: 23 New
            0
            Quote: edsw
            The shell has its own radar guidance mm range 1PC2-1E "Helmet", and not from the dagger

            read carefully
            I wrote not about the "materiel" but about the RANGE
            it is very close at the shooting lock "Kortik" and "Pantsir"
      2. timokhin-aa
        17 August 2020 17: 23 New
        +6
        And the fact that, for example, we have torpedoes in service with boats that will not hit any target does not bother you? And the fact that ships are being built armed with one cannon? We are now not looking at combat effectiveness at all.
        1. edsw
          edsw 17 August 2020 17: 49 New
          -3
          And you are apparently personally reported on the results of each torpedo firing. As for the cannon, apparently it means 22160, but the ship is delusional, but it's better to drive it to the shores of Somalia than some 1155 or 1144. You see, I don't believe that everything is fine in the Navy, just if you read you and your articles, you get the impression that there is one hopeless darkness ... apparently in the 90s and early 2000s it was better, I admit it
          1. Fizik M
            Fizik M 17 August 2020 17: 58 New
            +2
            Quote: edsw
            personally report on the results of each torpedo firing

            it is not necessary
            I have enough (including that for them to develop ONR-2030 http://federalbook.ru/files/OPK/Soderjanie/OPK-10/III/Borisov.pdf) their device

            Quote: edsw
            22160, but the ship is crazy, but it's better to drive it to the shores of Somalia than some kind of 115

            the problem is not only that the 1155 has TWO helicopters, but also that 22160 has extremely unpleasant restrictions on the use of helicopters and boats in waves
            but in general, in the oceanic zone, they were first of all 11540
            1. edsw
              edsw 17 August 2020 18: 04 New
              -2
              I'm not talking about helicopters now. I read at the airbase on the question of why it took so long to repair 1155, etc., and there they answered that their resource was already at the limit, 22160 from my bell tower was seen exactly as a "chaser" of pirates so as not to waste the resource of a few ships of 1, 2 rank. Well, as in a year or 15 or 16 about all this mosquito fleet, one person said "either the fleet will receive such ships now, and then someday frigates, or now it will not receive anything.
              1. Fizik M
                Fizik M 17 August 2020 18: 43 New
                +1
                Quote: edsw
                1155, etc., and there they answered that their resource was already at the limit, 22160 from my bell tower to be seen exactly as a "gonyalshik" of pirates

                patrol officers - needed, and for a wide range of tasks
                but 22160 is not a patrolman - but a "spasm of naval thought"

                Quote: edsw
                Well, how in a year or 15 or 16 about this whole mosquito fleet one person spoke about "

                don't talk nonsense, it hurts! "Karakurt" clearly showed that instead of this crap of Project 22160, a series of good OVR corvettes could normally go now
              2. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 17 August 2020 19: 25 New
                +3
                Quote: edsw
                22160 from my bell tower to be seen exactly as a "chaser" of pirates so as not to waste the resource of a few ships of 1, 2 rank

                22160 is the killer of the OVR corvette.
                The Commander-in-Chief does not see a prospect in the creation of ships previously designated as "Corvette OVR". One of the main tasks of the OVR is to ensure the protection and defense of naval forces in the areas of naval bases and in the territories adjacent to them. This task is now carried out by coastal surveillance equipment, stationary sonar stations and coastal missile and artillery troops, armed with anti-ship missiles of different ranges, as well as anti-submarine and attack aircraft.
                Having abandoned the corvette, the Navy turned to the idea of ​​creating patrol ships - less armed, but with greater autonomy and versatility, capable of, inter alia, go on long trips.
                © Navy Commander Chirkov. 2014
                It was because of 22160 that the fleet lost 6 years and is now frantically trying to reanimate the deceased OVR, generating ideas such as modernizing the "Albatross" dear Michal Sergeich.
          2. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 17 August 2020 19: 27 New
            +3
            Quote: edsw
            crazy, but it's better to drive him to the shores of Somalia than some kind of 1155 or 1144.


            It was better to drive a trawler converted into an anti-piracy ship. What to occupy the shipyard with a crazy ship, given the onset of full well ... with OVR.
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 17 August 2020 15: 07 New
    +3
    Good historical analysis, reasonable proposals ... they would be in the ears of the bosses ... let's see ... request
    As a recommendation, an economic analysis of options would also be appropriate, you speak qualitatively, but practically without numbers, and this is important and clear. hi
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 17 August 2020 16: 04 New
      +3
      Quote: DrEng527
      As a recommendation, an economic analysis of options would also be appropriate, you speak qualitatively, but practically without numbers., And this is important and clearly

      The most important figure here is that the cost of the "tower" of the IBMK "Zaslon" has already "skyrocketed" almost to the cost of the head corvette. But the "pharmaceutical accuracy" is superfluous here, because the scoundrels from the article will already "blaze"
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 17 August 2020 15: 41 New
    +3
    Quote: Scharnhorst
    I can understand the authors' dizziness with success

    there is no "dizziness"
    the laying of new corvettes according to the "last option" 20380 (with IBMK "Zaslon" and without UKSK) will be "a mistake worse than a crime"
  • prior
    prior 17 August 2020 16: 01 New
    +3
    The article, to put it mildly, upset.
    The issues discussed in it should be considered in the Ministry of Defense, in the Navy, in specialized institutes, but not on an open website on the Internet. Or, in the indicated instances, no one needs it, and the authors through the VO website are trying to shout to those responsible for this matter, more precisely to the irresponsible.
    It seems that the fleet is not an ally of Russia and is not being built for military operations at sea, but a set of mock-ups for a parade, to demonstrate a flag.
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 17 August 2020 16: 18 New
      +3
      Quote: prior
      The issues discussed in it should be considered in the Ministry of Defense, in the Navy, in specialized institutes, but not on an open website on the Internet.

      on how these issues are "considered" in the Navy and Ministry of Defense:
      https://neva.versia.ru/glava-peterburgskogo-oboronnogo-predpriyatiya-zaslon-okazalsya-krupnym-korrupcionerom
      Well the fact that the air defense of the corvettes "according to the project" (agreed and adopted by the Navy and the Ministry of Defense) will be FACTORY NOT PROVIDED, the specialists SCREAMED IMMEDIATELY! This was written back in 2006.!!! -
      Criticism of project 20380 ... no one is interested in how these undoubtedly excellent missiles will actually fly, in the absence of a radio correction line and disgusting target designation from "Fourke" ... So to speak, according to the "fire-forget" scheme. About what!!!!!!! About the goal? or about a rocket? ... the developers of the air defense missile system diligently bypass all sharp corners, such as: And how will your missile defense system see the target in case of target designation errors in the region of 1 degree? ... The answer is - He will see ... etc.
      ... if we take the statement of I.G. Zakharova: We will not fight with anyone. Corvette is needed in order to demonstrate the flag of the point, then of course all the way. And if tomorrow is a war ...


      The fact that JSC "Zaslon" is now "VERY NOT LIKE" the prospect of losing a very fat budget piece is a rhetorical question.

      Google who the current director of "Zaslon" Adamene is! Yes, "there is nowhere to put the hallmarks on it," and it was he who drove the ASZ in the ass, with a fat export contract!
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 17 August 2020 16: 10 New
    +2
    clearly by attenuation
  • Tektor
    Tektor 17 August 2020 16: 25 New
    +4
    Nice look at the problem. I support project 20385 with Mineral, UKSK, Thor-FM at the stern, a long BUGAS antenna and an anti-submarine helicopter.
  • Alexey Petrovichev
    Alexey Petrovichev 17 August 2020 18: 41 New
    +1
    Totally agree
  • edsw
    edsw 17 August 2020 18: 45 New
    0
    Quote: Fizik M
    don't talk nonsense, it hurts! "Karakurt" clearly showed that instead of this crap of Project 22160, a series of good OVR corvettes could normally go now

    For example? Which ones? 20380 who have been building for 5 years? Or a new environment that will go 10 years?
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 17 August 2020 18: 54 New
      +4
      Quote: edsw
      Which ones? 20380 who have been building for 5 years?

      22800 had a problem with the power plant
      now their "stars" are gone
      "acceleration" from VGK helped
      Quote: edsw
      Or new environs that will go 10 years?

      technical project in 9 MONTHS
      there is even a project number (popularly "blackjack")
      the pace of construction is close to the "karakurt", with the amendment that there are initially no problems in the series with the power plant (Kolomenskaya)
      see

      https://vpk.name/news/235005_ob_ekstrennyih_merah_po_razresheniyu_kriticheskih_problem__nashego_nadvodnogo_korablestroeniya.html
      this is based on the document "before Sochi"
      and then we compare the number of new ship orders in Sochi with
      Obviously, the Navy and the military-industrial complex critically need a massive series of effective ships, both for the near and far zones.
      And that "what is" is expedient:
      increase the 22350 series by at least one more 2 units (3 each for the Northern Fleet and the Pacific Fleet);
      increase of 11771 series by 2 units (for the Black Sea Fleet and Pacific Fleet);
      1. bk0010
        bk0010 17 August 2020 22: 26 New
        -1
        ... from decommissioned ships
        Second hand for new ships? Are you seriously? Who will sign this, who will take on the guarantee?
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 17 August 2020 22: 37 New
          +3
          Quote: bk0010
          Second hand for new ships? Are you seriously? Who will sign this, who will take on the guarantee?

          what are the technical problems? (I'm not talking about legal troubles!)
          yes, the whole world does this, incl. rich "Westerners"
          1. timokhin-aa
            18 August 2020 08: 23 New
            +1
            Yes, and we do. With Boreas. wink
        2. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 18 August 2020 09: 47 New
          0
          Quote: bk0010
          Second hand for new ships? Are you seriously? Who will sign this, who will take on the guarantee?


          The guns and even the air defense missile system, not to mention the anti-ship missile launchers, were rearranged several times in different fleets, including the British for sure.
          Second, what is the problem with the guarantee. Overhaul of the product is being carried out, they give a guarantee according to all the rules ...
  • Volly
    Volly 17 August 2020 21: 39 New
    +2
    I have a few questions:
    1. Why do we need 20385 when there is 22350? What is the problem to build 22350 at the NPP? If there is a problem with a transport dock, then what is the problem with building such a dock?
    2. How does the author see the ideal OVR corvette?
    3. How does the author see the ideal OVR corvette without taking into account the new environment?
    4. How does the author see the entire line of surface ships?
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 17 August 2020 21: 55 New
      +2
      Quote: Volly
      Why do we need 20385 when there is 22350?

      Without wretched Barrier the corvette of Project 20385 will be released about 2 times cheaper than the frigate of Project 22350.
      This is enough, let's say.
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 17 August 2020 22: 14 New
        +3
        Quote: Cyril G ...
        Without the miserable Zaslon, the corvette of Project 20385 will be released about 2 times cheaper than the frigate of Project 22350.
        This is enough, let's say.

        there is more difference
        3 definitely works (if done according to the mind)
        1. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 17 August 2020 22: 50 New
          0
          There, with a standard case of project 20380, you can seriously save money. For example, change the A-190 for AK-176MA, Puma for Bagira, etc. etc.
      2. Volly
        Volly 19 August 2020 13: 36 New
        0
        And if we compare Polyment-redoubt at 22350 and Positive-redoubt at 20385 (if they put it), then what are the differences? (range, number of targets, cost, mass - what is the order of difference?)
        1. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 19 August 2020 13: 56 New
          0
          Wait to compare nada for a start Polyment-Redoubt (22350) and simply Redoubt (20380), then think about which is better
    2. Fizik M
      Fizik M 17 August 2020 21: 58 New
      +2
      Quote: Volly
      Why do we need 20385 when there is 22350?

      1 has serious production limitations on the series
      2. For effective control of BMZ, a distributed "network" of carriers of effective search tools is needed, i.e. need a BIG SERIES
      Quote: Volly
      2. How does the author see the ideal OVR corvette?
      3. How does the author see the ideal OVR corvette without taking into account the new environment?
      4. How does the author see the entire line of surface ships?

      https://vpk.name/news/235005_ob_ekstrennyih_merah_po_razresheniyu_kriticheskih_problem__nashego_nadvodnogo_korablestroeniya.html
      was written on the basis of the document "upward" prepared before Sochi, and its consequences were
      now the situation has changed somewhat, but there is no time to paint in detail
      1. Volly
        Volly 18 August 2020 21: 54 New
        0
        https://vpk.name/news/235005_ob_ekstrennyih_merah_po_razresheniyu_kriticheskih_problem__nashego_nadvodnogo_korablestroeniya.html


        Thanks for the link. Conceptually, given that these are mobilization projects, I fully agree.

        22350 has serious production limitations for the series

        And what are the restrictions? What is the bottleneck?
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 18 August 2020 22: 35 New
          +1
          Quote: Volly
          And what are the restrictions? What is the bottleneck?

          reducer
          more precisely, the organization of work on them
          at the moment, the domestic gearbox for the power plant 22350 is not only not installed on the ship (as Rakhmanov and ZMO stated - that is, their subordinates deceived them!), but it did not even make it to the "Saturn" stand!
          1. Volly
            Volly 19 August 2020 10: 20 New
            +1
            reducer

            There was a cautious assumption on the forums that there was a chance that the gearbox would still reach Saturn by the end of the year.
            But it turns out that for several years the gearbox for the 22350 will really be a bottleneck.
            And then it turns out that the bookmark is now the next modification 20380 with Caliber and Positive is more than justified.
            Then more questions arise:
            1. Where else can you build 20380 and in what quantities?
            2. How relevant are expeditionary frigates now?
            3. What is the 22350M? What kind of power plant? How quickly can this power plant be created?
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 22 August 2020 08: 51 New
              +3
              Quote: Volly
              1. Where else can you build 20380 and in what quantities?

              Amber, Pella, Bay, Zelenodolsk
              but the quantity - you need to "look individually"
              Quote: Volly
              2. How relevant are expeditionary frigates now?

              relevant
              both in the far and near zone (group basing vert, but - NORMAL VERT IS NEEDED!)
              Quote: Volly
              3. What is the 22350M? What kind of power plant? How quickly can this power plant be created?

              completely GTU
              designation and type "shone" (they were in open, but non-public documents of the USC), I will look at the sources
              Quote: Volly
              How quickly can this power plant be created?

              technically fast
              but "organizationally" - HZ
              Stepan # 21.08.2020/19/25 XNUMX:XNUMX @ tank_bd # 21.08.2020/04/16 XNUMX:XNUMX
              tb> Retvizan >> I wonder how long it can take to test a unit? 3 months, half a year? Well, not a year !?
              Stepan >> Probably the same at the "Zvezda-Reduktor" thought when they started to test: D
              tb> Stepan and if it's not a secret what was the problem? the stands were functioning incorrectly? Did you need a file reducer? Did the staff not understand what to do? are the regulations?

              A little bit of everything, but the main problem is personnel. In the management of "Z-R" there is no one related to gearboxes in particular, and to mechanical engineering in general, hence the complete lack of understanding of the assembly and testing processes, I generally keep quiet about metalworking. The head of the test bench (until recently) is a young computer scientist : D, what could he be experiencing? Sinara again pushed its director through the board of directors of Z-R, so I'm afraid it won't be better :(

              http://www.balancer.ru/g/p8970281
              1. Volly
                Volly 23 August 2020 13: 18 New
                +1
                technically fast
                but "organizationally" - HZ

                If so, then it is difficult for me to understand what is in people's heads. I somehow happened to communicate with people who understand the importance of specialists, although they set themselves the goal of cutting down the loot.
                Isn't it clear that unprofessionalism will come back to haunt sooner or later? I wonder how this problem will be solved? It is clear, however, that you need to attract personnel. There are still suggestions that corporate wars are hindering this.
                Exactly the same questions about pushing non-working projects. After all, you will then fly over the head if something happens.
                1. Cyril G ...
                  Cyril G ... 23 August 2020 14: 47 New
                  0
                  Quote: Volly
                  the identification of non-working projects. After all, you will then fly over the head if something happens.


                  Even if they think of the life credo - to cut a couple - you might not even have time to reach the ladder .... And the transition to the personal category should not be discounted.
                  No, I don't understand them ...
  • Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 17 August 2020 21: 54 New
    +2
    Quote: Fizik M
    visually


    This beautiful picture says that the corvette was designed by goofs who have no idea how it is there in the sea. In the Sea of ​​Okhotsk and the Pacific Ocean, freezing of the bow tower was normal. But where it will pass painlessly in the case of a cannon, with an air defense missile system / air defense system such as a Dirk or Pantsyr it will end badly
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 17 August 2020 22: 02 New
      +2
      it was said by the "ideologist of the corvette":
      “We will not fight with anyone. The corvette is needed to display the flag. "
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 17 August 2020 22: 06 New
        +2
        Yes, I kind of do not doubt this kind of beautiful-minded idiocy. How was it in your flotilla - what else are you seriously going to fight? Type C.
        We have army men with pilots and by the way with the marines have been fighting continuously for the last 30 years, and admirals pose themselves as just clinical idiots from time to time ...
  • Scharnhorst
    Scharnhorst 18 August 2020 00: 00 New
    -2
    Here's an interesting question: why did many experts get their tongue sucked in ... after the Black Sea Fleet has already successfully operated a series of admiral's frigates? There were no less critics than now. A decision was made, the ships were built, and they did the right thing in a critical situation that they did not rely on unfinished weapons. Now to the debate about fading in bad weather. And the gsn anti-ship missile system will not go blind in the same conditions, and the conditions for searching for a ship against the background of the underlying surface are always more difficult than in open space, albeit at a low altitude of a contrast target. The unmasking factor of the Doppler effect is also not in favor of RCC. Well, I hope the energy potentials of the GOS anti-ship missiles are not comparable to the ship's air defense missile system locator, as are the gains of antenna devices. In the end, the anti-ship missile flying above the waves will freeze up no less - the tea is also not all-weather!? ...
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 18 August 2020 00: 10 New
      +3
      Quote: Scharnhorst
      sucked into the well ...

      apparently YOU are about yourself lol
      Quote: Scharnhorst
      the Black Sea Fleet is already successfully operating a series of admiral frigates

      because there is a very significant difference between OPERATION and COMBAT USE (BY DESIGNATION)
      and 11356 has very serious "shoals" in terms of combat capabilities ...
      Quote: Scharnhorst
      And the GSS RPC will not go blind in the same conditions

      fool
      do you speaker rushen?
      above in RUSSIAN and it is quite clearly written about the frequency ranges
      and the overwhelming majority of the GOS RCC is just in "short centimeters"
      - by the way, this was one of the reasons that the Americans in the "shpay" climbed to the suboptimal DM BH - to be able to freely press the EW GOS anti-ship missiles without restricting themselves in the review for the simultaneous operation of missiles

      (mm-channel on some anti-ship missiles is, for example, Saab's "15", but this is exactly an ADDITIONAL channel)
      Quote: Scharnhorst
      Eventually flying over RCC waves will freeze up no less - tea is also not all-weather!? ...

      How are you with vision? see the prefix "ABOVE" in yourself?
  • Sanya S.
    Sanya S. 18 August 2020 09: 45 New
    +1
    The trouble guys we have nowadays is one - hefty - firstly: decisions are made not by knowledgeable people (Putin and Shoigu), and secondly: decisions are made not to increase the combat readiness of the fleet (and in general for the Armed Forces), but on the inside political reasons (at the ASZ they pinned themselves with a state order against the background of a demonstration), they just threw a bone to the people to shut up, and what they will build there is not so important
  • Polar Bear
    Polar Bear 18 August 2020 11: 24 New
    -1
    It's good that there is a critical sober view of this corvette. And then quite often, we have the best caps in the air. I heard that these corvettes are unsuccessful. One of them burned for a whole day in a raid in Denmark in front of NATO sailors, who arrived on board with their fire extinguishing equipment to help put out the fire. The fire on the corvette cost the sailor Tsydenzhapop his life. And if not for this guy, then perhaps the corvette would have burned down completely. And all this without war, without damage, on new ships and in the base! And how many accidents and incidents that have not been published? There are probably dozens of them, if not hundreds. The main mistake is the choice of the designer, who had never designed ships larger than 500 tons before. But we have shortcomings in all types of weapons and it’s very bad that they don’t write about them, since the silence of shortcomings and harshness, we already know what leads to defeats 41 years old.
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 18 August 2020 20: 13 New
      +3
      Quote: Polar Bear
      The fire on the corvette cost the sailor Tsydenzhapop his life. And if not for this guy, then perhaps the corvette would have burned down completely.

      Tsydenzhapov died in a fire on the destroyer Bystry pr. 956 ...
      The corvette is technically not brilliant, but it has already been brought to mind in terms of reliability - in terms of proof, 2 BF corvettes went to the Red Sea. And the frigate on similar diesel engines of the D49 series made a trip around the world.
      1. Polar Bear
        Polar Bear 19 September 2020 11: 44 New
        0
        Are you serious? To go to the Red Sea and back is only 1 thousand diesel work. Around the world is 2,5-3 thousand hours of work. And the ships and the diesel, respectively, are new. This is only something outstanding for the land and for the military.
  • reader65
    reader65 18 August 2020 19: 19 New
    0
    Respect to Klimov and Timokhin. We would have had more people who are not indifferent to the future of Russia, you see, everything would have improved. And everything can be fixed quickly if Klimov is appointed commander-in-chief of the Russian Navy with the right to shoot one person a day.
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 19 August 2020 05: 14 New
    +1
    report addressed to VGK

    To the Supreme Commander-in-Chief of the RF Armed Forces
    To the President of the Russian Federation
    Putin, Vladimir Vladimirovich.



    Report.

    According to the statement for the media of the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, Admiral Evmenov, on behalf of the President of the Russian Federation, materials are being prepared for concluding a state contract for the construction of 6 corvettes of project 20380 at Amur Shipyard JSC (ASZ JSC). Taking into account the critical state of the Pacific Fleet's ship composition, insecurity of deployment and combat stability of the naval strategic nuclear forces (NSNF), this order is extremely necessary.
    At the same time, of course, the critical shortcomings of project 20380 (with which the project is currently "limited combat-ready") in terms of anti-submarine weapons and air defense of the ship must be eliminated.
    1. An effective solution to anti-submarine problems unambiguously requires the presence in the ammunition of the corvette of anti-submarine missiles (PLR) "Answer" of the missile weapon complex (KRO) "Caliber". In fact, without submarines, a corvette, even with good search means, is a "game" for enemy submarines (submarines), and with submarines - a "hunter" for them.
    2. The Ka-27M helicopter can in no way replace the PLR ​​corvette, due to extremely low characteristics and search capabilities (both the outdated high-frequency lowered hydroacoustic station (OGAS) "Ros-VM", and the RSB-16M radio acoustic buoys) and defeat PL.
    3. Taking into account the versatility of launchers for the PLR ​​"Answer" and other missiles KRO "Caliber", the possibility of launching with it the missiles "Onyx" and "Zircon", on the new corvettes it is definitely necessary to place a launcher for missiles "Onyx" / "Caliber "/" Onyx "/" Zircon ", i.e. new corvettes of JSC "ASZ" should be built according to project 20385 (with KRO "Caliber").
    4. Taking into account the strict funding limitation, construction time, the only possibility of this is the replacement of the extremely expensive radar complex (RLC) of the IBMK "Zaslon" with the used and effective products "Positive-M", "Monument" (or "Monolith"), " Puma ".
    Note: today - not a single air target was shot down by the IBMK "Zaslon", taking into account the acceleration of the deadlines for the delivery of the lead ship with it to the Navy (the "Thundering" corvette), there are good reasons to believe that certain persons would like to conduct tests in obviously simplified conditions (not related to real combat conditions, for example, shooting at targets (RM-15M) with a height and visibility (EPR) more than an order of magnitude greater than real targets). Here it is necessary to mention the massive disruption of JSC "Zaslon" (developer of the IBMK) of work on radar topics for aviation.
    The decision to install the IBMK "Zaslon" on new corvettes is a "time bomb" under the entire program, since :
    • until now the real working capacity of the IBMK (and the ability to solve problems for its intended purpose) has not been ensured, and all the terms for this have been disrupted by the developer;
    • there are good reasons to believe ...

    • for counterparty work under the project 20380 IBMK "Zaslon" is the most expensive and risky component, while the necessary tasks are reliably performed by serially produced products with many times lower cost.
    5. Another factor in saving financial resources and ensuring the specified construction time frame may be the replacement of a composite superstructure with a metal one. Previously, the installation of an expensive composite superstructure was justified by the thesis of "reduced visibility", which was not confirmed by real tests of serial ships.
    6. Work on the revision of the project 20380 for this does not require the implementation of additional R&D, and can be performed within the framework of the "serial" GOST RV 307 as a "revision of the serial project". These works do not require additional funds, because the cost of corvettes, which are much more effective in terms of combat capabilities, is lower than today's "game" of project 20380, and the overall time of work is ultimately reduced (which allows the fleet to reliably rely on new ships).
    7. The proposed "mobilization" version of the project 20380/20385 (with the KRO "Caliber", with the "Positive-M" instead of the IBMK "Zaslon") has high combat qualities, moderate cost, reliably provided for the capabilities of mass serial production by counterparty supplies, and is suitable for construction in many shipyards.
    Thus, with a slight revision of the project 20380 (without additional R&D), its main disadvantages can be eliminated (with a simultaneous multiple increase in combat potential), the cost can be significantly reduced and the mass serial construction of new ships for the Russian Navy can be reliably ensured.
    I am reporting on your decision.
    15.08.2020g.
    Yours faithfully,

    captain 3rd rank in reserve Klimov Maxim Alexandrovich



    1. reader65
      reader65 19 August 2020 06: 00 New
      0
      Oha. And the circle is complete. That is, MOs must voluntarily refuse kickbacks. Unlikely.
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 19 August 2020 06: 14 New
        +1
        Quote: reader65
        That is, MOs must voluntarily refuse kickbacks. Unlikely

        I am not a prosecutor, and their kickbacks don't interest me, my goal is high combat capability of the Russian Navy and Armed Forces
        1. reader65
          reader65 19 August 2020 07: 40 New
          +1
          So they will build these towers, even if you crack.
          1. reader65
            reader65 8 September 2020 08: 05 New
            +1
            Latest News:

            "New corvettes of project 20380 will receive the Zaslon radar system."

            The patron of the hike is at the highest level barrier. And bought everything and everyone. Or traitors.
            How else to explain the continuation of the construction of incapacitated ships.
        2. Nemchinov Vl
          Nemchinov Vl 22 August 2020 01: 32 New
          +2
          Quote: Fizik M
          I am not a prosecutor, and I am not interested in their kickbacks, my goal is the high combat capability of the Russian Navy and Armed Forces
          sw. Maxim, but you and Timokhin, you perfectly understand that in its current form 20380 is a marriage (if you call things in their own names) (!)... It is not suitable as a mass unit - OVR. first because of, lack of a capable air defense system ?! (but the trouble is, in a dialogue with Tmokhin, I posed to Alexander the question why fourth SAM except voiced in the article three ?!... in response, I received everything except the answer in essence. ?!) ... Second by reason of lack of the possibility of using PLUR (yes, theoretically in model 20385 this has already been fixed, but IT IS MORE EXPENSIVE !!! and all the same without a capable air defense system ?!, and this despite the fact that the price tag of the last 20380 has already exceeded 22,5 /according to Timokhin/ billion rubles ?!.... Why not invite the Navy to pay attention to 11664 ?! He and Calm, at the same power plant, with the same GAK, will now be much easier to re-transform, exactly what is needed for the Navy ?! (if it's not difficult to watch the dialogue with Alexander Timokhin, it will be much easier to understand the train of thought) .... Otherwise, it turns out that A. Timokhin stands for the change 20380 (!), but without the necessary coordination changes (SAM and PLUR) (!), otherwise, as he put it, -
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          "Other" in the sense of a 100% new project. This is unrealistic right now.
          ?! those. saying "ONCE" does not have to say "TWO" ?! ....
          1. Fizik M
            Fizik M 22 August 2020 02: 12 New
            0
            Quote: Nemchinov Vl
            (but the trouble is, in a dialogue with Tmokhin, I posed to Alexander the question why the fourth air defense system is ignored except for the three voiced in the article ?!

            You answered
            Quote: Nemchinov Vl
            Why not invite the Navy to pay attention to 11664

            Imported power plant
            Specifically about this "last figure" of the project
          2. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 22 August 2020 08: 40 New
            +1
            Project 20380 can be eee simplified significantly and brought to the required level.
          3. timokhin-aa
            22 August 2020 11: 34 New
            -1
            You do not compare the volumes of processing. For Calm, you will have to redo everything above the bulwark. The whole superstructure, BIUS (put outdated or merge Calm with Sigma), 4 Nuts come with it.

            Where are you going to stick this on the corvette? What will happen to the top weight there?

            The most important thing is that the same result is obtained by the radio correction equipment, and the elimination of the "Fourke" error by replacing it with Positive. This will also be a win for unification - they put the same radar on Karakurt.
            And with the complete transfer of the Karakurt radar and the introduction of radio correction, it will be even more economical with the SAME result.

            Plus the factor that mass character is needed for the 9m96 SAM. Calm here flies at all points.
  • sivuch
    sivuch 19 August 2020 11: 38 New
    0
    There were three main problems: a small parameter, restrictions on the defeat of maneuvering targets and a meteorological mm-range of a firing radar - it was corny "blind" not only from rain, but also from dense fog
    In general, everywhere they will send about the following about the SSTs - radar for target tracking and missile guidance with phased array of millimeter and centimeter ranges 1PC2 / 1PC2-1E "Helmet" (NPO Fazotron); manufacturer - JSC RATEP.
    Another thing that I do not remember is whether it was mentioned where, which specific cm range: 2-3 or 6-9
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 22 August 2020 02: 14 New
      +1
      Quote: sivuch
      In general

      surveyor - "long centimeters"
      shooting - "long millimeters"
      PM
      1. sivuch
        sivuch 23 August 2020 08: 57 New
        0
        More like an ellipsis. That is, contrary to the descriptions, the SSTS is not a 2-band?
        To make it clear, I have not been associated with shipbuilding for a very long time and I only take information from the Internet.
        So I just want to clarify, but not get into a squabble.
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 20 August 2020 13: 07 New
    +1
    It is of "interest" to respond to a forum that claims to be "semi-professional" wassat and "best" fool "maritime forum of runet" lol
    https://forums.airbase.ru/2020/08/t85910_320--ctorozhevye-korabli-korvety-proekta-20380-stereguschij-5.3137.html
    frisky 110 # 19.08.2020/09/44 XNUMX:XNUMX
    It is necessary to take the enterprise and the designers of that enterprise out of the state, approximately to the Magadan Territory. I say exactly, everything will be in half a year - a year. Comrade Stalin has worked out the scheme.

    Those. SCAM of the famous "fat cats" of the Navy and the military-industrial complex, but repression to the DESIGNERS.
    Even the minimal movement of the cerebellum, which needs to start with those who developed and signed the TTZ, simply does not arise ...

    RalF! # 19.08.2020/10/39 XNUMX:XNUMX
    Of course, I'm not studying for a hull, but replacing a composite superstructure, even with an aluminum one, will inevitably lead to a significant increase in its mass, and an increase in the "upper weight" with the corresponding questions of stability and seaworthiness. the project as a whole.

    Theoretically, the mass of an AMG superstructure should be close to that of a composite one.
    However, taking into account the problem of the stiffness of the composite superstructure, etc. its reinforcements and foundations, no matter how it turned out that the "composite" 20380 did not reach the level of steel in terms of weight.
    In any case, there is no talk of "abolishing physics". If steel does not pass through the mass, let the composite remain. But the question should not only be "discussed in the smoking room by experts", but raised by the management (ie, specialists would have the opportunity "not to discuss in the smoking room" to report at the corresponding meetings), and this was the purpose of the article and the report.

    RalF! # 19.08.2020/10/39 XNUMX:XNUMX
    In terms of air defense and weapons, it is not special, but it seems to be sound, with the proviso that the use of ZRAKs instead of 630s on 380s is hardly possible due to the composite superstructure, but I wrote about its replacement above.

    ZRAK is out of the question
    and it was clearly written in the article
    RalF! # 19.08.2020/10/39 XNUMX:XNUMX
    It would also be unrealistic to place the SPU on this project in its current form. And in general, isn't it too much for a ship of this class?

    REALLY. BUT no one even set such a task for the "Bars" (the developer and manufacturer of SPU 20380).

    РПМ-80 #20.08.2020 05:39 @V.Poster#19.08.2020 15:13
    V.Poster> Are you discussing another opus fiction of Messrs. Klimov and Timokhin? I won't even read, there is one diagram ...
    I worked during it in an organization that was developing, though not the corvette itself, but one of its key complexes (common with 22350 :)).
    And about the "peculiarities" of the organization of financing the ROC of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation in those days, as well as the behavior of this respected customer (at least in relation to "my" product), he writes 100% correctly.
    And I have heard Klimov from someone or simply speculated (as he often loves), I don't know.
    But below that:
    "... their" fathers "considered the new corvettes, in fact, not as warships, but as" flag demonstrators "," technology demonstrators "and" pictures for export " I'll probably even subscribe, because it's true: D
    But he is fundamentally wrong about the Zaslon - everything is there, from financing R&D in general to organizing and conducting PI, although it is not ideal, but it is already close to how it should be - if done wisely.
    Compared to the times of development of RP and 9M96, this is not even heaven and earth, but a parallel universe!
    Although, in general, everything will be visible anyway - and this year;).
    Well, as for his proposal to replace the IBMK with the Positive-Mineral "bundle" - not even mentioning that this will require a complete redevelopment of the ship's REV and the superstructure (at least) with all the consequences, this is also in itself ... Klimov is just does not understand (even approximately) how the IBMK should work in conjunction with the 9M100 and 9M96 and what tasks it (in general) is capable of solving.
    Although, after all, he is a BC-3 and should not understand such "subtleties" - and such trifles are not in rank for a strategist, he (together with the main command) has tasks that are much wider and more voluminous: D

    1. Monsieur RPM-80 loves to speculate and DON'T (whose "shutter ears" have "grown and stick out")
    2. About the "Barrier" he has an ABSOLUTE LIE (well, except for really his "fat funding"). "At the exit" FACTS ON THE FACE - NOT A SINGLE GOAL FAILED. As an opposite example, I can cite Phazotron, which back in 2010. from their prototype AFAR they shot down the VTs (by the way, they overtook NIIP with this)
    3. About "it will be seen" "this year", - MAY be, but when shooting in FACTORY SIMPLIFIED CONDITIONS. There is no question of compliance with the requirements of the battle.
    4. About how the CORRECT radar with AFAR should "look like" - see the materials of the research work "Chistik" (this is what "later became the" Squirrel ", at one time they were on procurement) and compare with the" golden log "of the" Barrier "
    5. "Klimov simply does not understand (even approximately) how the IBMK should work in conjunction with the 9M100 and 9M96 and what tasks it (in general) is capable of solving." - and this is just a FALSE LIE, because in the "Barrier" WANTED TO CHEEK on ZUR ("we did not pass this, we were not asked this " - ABOUT from their specialists, and Adamene himself said the same thing!), And began to work on this topic only after they began to poke in their face ARTICLES by Klimov and Timokhin... However, the RMP-80 KNOWN STUFF, and frankly "includes the fool" about the "Positive-M", the parameters of which initially corresponded to the specified missiles!
    6. And the "increased modesty" of this RPM-80 on the absolutely insane and inflated cost of the IBMK "Zaslon" (which practically caught up with the cost of the ENTIRE head corvette).

    PS
    I know very well what JSC "Zaslon" is.
    - A COMPLETE failure on all aviation topics (including the recent raider seizure of the Su-34 and Ka-52, which in the very near future will have extremely grave consequences for the country)
    - COMPLETE FAILURE on mine action ("French fraud") and active sabotage of ALL topics on it
    - the fact that these are such "SUBSTANCES" as Lysenko and Adamene (on which "there is nowhere to put the stamps") that "surfaced" on "Zaslon" and which were accepted by Gorbunov with "open arms"
    etc.
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 22 August 2020 08: 41 New
      +1
      Quote: Fizik M
      Those. SCAM of the famous "fat cats" of the Navy and the military-industrial complex, but repression to the DESIGNERS.
      Even the minimal movement of the cerebellum, which needs to start with those who developed and signed the TTZ, simply does not arise ...


      Such is the professionalism
  • Alexander Marat
    Alexander Marat 20 August 2020 14: 19 New
    0
    OVR ships !!! .... and we cannot bring them to mind.
  • Sckepsis
    Sckepsis 20 August 2020 18: 02 New
    -2

    Such ships will not only be more combat-ready than the usual 20380, not only better armed than the 20380, but also cheaper.

    Something there is reason to doubt such a statement of the authors.
    1. timokhin-aa
      20 August 2020 19: 31 New
      +1
      What reason do you have? The Zaslonovskiy RLK costs the same as the Karakurt MRK without the Pantsir. And nothing knocks down yet (already a year ago).
    2. Fizik M
      Fizik M 21 August 2020 14: 27 New
      +2
      Quote: Sckepsis
      Something there is reason to doubt such a statement of the authors.

      1. Positive + Mineral + Puma cost about 3-4 times less than the "tower" of the "Barrier"
      2. The price list of UKSK fits into this difference with a huge margin
  • Devil13
    Devil13 21 August 2020 11: 51 New
    0
    Hmm, I'm reading the beginning of the article and more and more questions to the individuals who did this, instead of
    12441, laid down already in 1997.

    Authors, I am sincerely grateful to you, and I hope that you will write your letters to the Moscow Region again and try to reach out.

    About torpedo tubes - yes, even if you just "put in a row" on board, rigidly fixing (like torpedo tubes in the early 20th century on the same Varyag), there will be more sense (like the BC). 21st century in the yard, why the heck do you need a heavy rotary PU? The torpedoes will deploy themselves to the target. Is it really so expensive to simply lay the launch pipes in a row and check their performance, provided that these pipes have already been checked separately and all commissions have been passed? Under the condition of preserving the mass of the complex on board and the location?

    About UKSK: the optimal number of launchers is from 8 (for a missile salvo of anti-ship missiles) to 16 (where to put PLUR in?) If we have a Multipurpose ship. In my understanding, the multipurpose frigate loaded it quickly (how long does it take to reload the uksk? And the Italians will convert their multipurpose frigate completely in 8 hours) and go ahead. Or right in the sea, was close to the area (for example, an anti-submarine aircraft spotted the nuclear submarine, and it needs to be "escorted") and began to complete the task.
    Of course, this is the ideal. Again, the OCD has been worked out, the number of launchers should not affect the environment of the OCD, etc. yes, if it drags on time - to hell with it, but still ...
    For the inclined launchers for the Caliber (to put it in the PU for the onyx from the "Nakat") are still OCD and again 5 years for "testing".

    About boats: there are boats from Kalashnikov, which, by the way, are also purchased by the fleet. TK-16 won't work?

    About the helicopter:
    In general, a helicopter is a noticeably increasing detection and targeting range, these are rescue and landing, anti-submarine operations, and it is very sad if the modernization ruined them, as follows from the article. But there would be a platform - the UAV and the turntable can be found later ...

    About mrls - here, of course, you entered into a stupor. I was hoping that the polyment-redoubt without their MRLS was finally taught to shoot missiles - but nifiga, it turns out.
    The "Armor" has a shit radio correction system, in terms of the missiles themselves, if you watch the video from Syria - you can see how the missile is sausage on the trajectory. Yes, and how they used cannons to smear 3-4 snouts during exercises, also op. An excellent complex, even though the shell-me more resembles a chestnut than its analog on wheels.
    Thor is yes, the best choice. But the range ... Although, for the near zone ...

    The Corvette's air defense must provide both self-defense air defense and at least an umbrella for the compound, 50 km.
    1. Nemchinov Vl
      Nemchinov Vl 22 August 2020 01: 02 New
      0
      Quote: Devil13
      The Corvette's air defense must provide both self-defense air defense and at least an umbrella for the formation, km by 50.
      and this "Calm-1" is just (!). ?! But understand why this "bunch of authors" his "stubbornly ignore", I personally cannot understand ... ?! Black Sea 11356 Р / М, it seems like they don't complain about him (Calm-1) ?! .... Which is quite suggestive that he is still capable....
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 22 August 2020 02: 03 New
        -1
        Quote: Nemchinov Vl
        But to understand why this "bunch of authors" it is "stubbornly ignored", I personally cannot understand

        stupid because "passed"
        "Sh-1" is too heavy, and most importantly, the project needs to be seriously redesigned for it
        by the way, he was quite considered as an air defense system for a corvette (which was reflected in open print sources)
        1. unknown
          unknown 23 August 2020 07: 29 New
          0
          "Calm-1" - heavy?
          Compared to "Redoubt"
          And what exactly is heavier?
          VPU?
          Or the complex itself as a whole?
          A rocket, but heavier.
          But, and warheads are heavier.
          It can also be used as an anti-ship, against small surface targets.
          1. timokhin-aa
            23 August 2020 09: 34 New
            +1
            Rocket and PU - God be with them, look how many radar stations are needed for Calm to shoot. There, in principle, the electronics are larger and heavier, the antennas are much larger and they are also heavier, well, it works with the BIUS "Requirement", and on the corvettes there is a new "Sigma". They must be spliced!
            And most importantly, the mass production of the 9M96 rocket is needed, it looks like it will become one of the basic missiles of the Armed Forces as a whole.
            Taken together, all this makes "Redoubt" uncontested.
            1. Cyril G ...
              Cyril G ... 29 August 2020 17: 30 New
              0
              Firstly, there seems to be a new Shtilevskaya SAM with ARGSN. Which no longer needs Nuts, sort of. Although fig knows him
              Secondly, yes, time is irrevocably lost for the Calm Hurricane. It had to be made the main air defense system from the end of the 70s. Now FSE. from the word in general
      2. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 22 August 2020 08: 43 New
        +1
        But take this and figure out what conceptually air defense systems we need ..
    2. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 22 August 2020 11: 32 New
      0
      Quote: Devil13
      For the inclined launchers for the Caliber (to put it in the PU for the onyx from the "Nakat") are still OCD and again 5 years for "testing".


      I have not bought into the groans of our naval bureaucrats for a long time. Why OCD? To cut it for 10 years, and close it due to non-confirmation of the OCD goal? Maybe for a start you just need to test the Caliber with an inclined launcher?
      The second question is Project 949AM. Inclined PU APKR declared as used, including for the start of the Caliber.
      What conclusion should I draw !?
      1. Devil13
        Devil13 22 August 2020 14: 48 New
        0
        And you read what is required for the recognition of a PU serial and combat-ready. What is the test program, what is being worked out, the minimum number of starts, the minimum amount of checks and work.
        1. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 22 August 2020 14: 53 New
          0
          Quote: Devil13
          read what is required for the recognition of a PU serial and combat-ready. What is the test program, what is being worked out, the minimum number of starts, the minimum amount of checks and work.


          There is no need. Evaluated without any problem. Either it works or it doesn't work. And I am quite aware that the naval bureaucracy is quite capable of substantiating what is, in principle, unjustified ...
        2. timokhin-aa
          23 August 2020 09: 36 New
          +1
          I agree with you basically, but the fact that we have hellish requirements in regulatory documents in some places is also a fact.
        3. Fizik M
          Fizik M 29 August 2020 12: 11 New
          +2
          Quote: Devil13
          And you read what is required for the recognition of a PU serial and combat-ready. What is the test program, what is being worked out, the minimum number of starts, the minimum amount of checks and work.

          I know wink
          my first TK was just for the launcher (alternative to the "package") laughing
          and I remember well the surprised-pitiful reaction laughing specialists from GNPP and KBM when at a technical meeting I said that I would do the technical specification in "2 weeks"
          In the end, I did it in 2 months, but I was not ashamed of him
        4. Fizik M
          Fizik M 29 August 2020 12: 14 New
          +3
          Quote: Devil13
          what is required for the recognition of a PU serial and combat-ready. What is the test program, what is being worked out, the minimum number of starts, the minimum amount of checks and work.

          Taking into account the ready for this "board" of serial missiles, it is enough to "shake the frame" and check the launch equipment for EMP (here, yes, money is required, but "there are options")
          at RVII I would "score"
          take the products themselves from the "periodicals" (shoot them anyway)
          all work can be really carried out within the framework of the serial 307 GOST RV
          1. Devil13
            Devil13 31 August 2020 11: 23 New
            0
            My compliments, seriously. If someone can break it and do it - 10 out of 10.
  • Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 22 August 2020 22: 16 New
    +1
    Once again on the concept of naval air defense

    The first type - SAM self-defense - D start up 15-25 km, rockets should be as cheap as possible for him. Then bish with RKTU. SAM SO - guided launchers / vertically starting torus type. But Pantsyr's rocket is several times cheaper. The conclusion must be a guiding PU + SU of the arctic Pantsyr type.
    The second type is the medium-range air defense system, from D start to 125 km, the task is to defeat the carriers of anti-ship missiles, anti-ballistic missiles and, most importantly, the carriers of SDB, UAB and others. SU - radio correction + ARGSN. UVP Reduta / UKSK
    The third type is the long-range air defense system from Dpusk 400-500 km. The main task is to defeat aircraft and reconnaissance UAVs, CU and AWACS within the radio horizon, the second is to defeat anti-ship missile carriers, etc. Launch from UKSK. SU - radio correction + PRGSN + ARGSN. Optional anti-missile for engaging targets in space. Start from UKSK.
    Combined missile and artillery systems are not the best option. Better to have missiles separately, Cannons separately ...
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 24 August 2020 13: 37 New
    +2
    Quote: Nemchinov Vl
    That is, it is not clear to me what can rightfully be called PATRIOTISM, and what is METEORISM, because of the defense of specific interests, for example, KB "Almaz", and not KB "Zelenodolsk"?! ....

    VOVOCHKA, did the orderlies give you vitamins in the evening?
    ZPKB is now over the ears in UDC SCAM (inspired by AkBars)
    resources for something else and serious STUPID NO
  • ZEMCH
    ZEMCH 4 September 2020 19: 48 New
    0
    Many articles have been written about PLO corvettes, everywhere it is indicated the need for a helicopter submarine ...
    Where are we going to get helicopters? Ka-27s are not being produced, only upgrading to the Ka-27M variant during repair. After modernizing the submarine with a Ka-27M helicopter, it can be called with a stretch))) Kamov's design bureau "Lamprey" failed, so what helicopters will we use on the ships under construction?)))