Ceremonial splendor and combat effectiveness. About the Main Naval Parade and not only

The main naval parade has already become a tradition

Russia has a long story naval parades. They have been around for as long as the navy. But at different times there were different phenomena behind the parades. Sometimes they marked the won wars or the high level of combat readiness achieved. Sometimes, on the contrary, they masked gaping gaps in combat training or in the theory of combat use, at worst, problems with morale behind their brilliance. And if such a "camouflaged" fleet was then forced to fight, then it ended badly.

The era of naval parades began at the same time when the fleet itself began - in Peter's times.

Start. Peter the Great

It all started with the Great Embassy and the king's stay in England. King William III ordered that Peter Mikhailov (the First) be shown everything that interests him in English navy, up to the presence at the review and fleet maneuvers on the Spithead roadstead. Peter was jubilant, he was on deck all day, he climbed the masts, trying to understand everything ...

Only ten years ago, he first saw a sailing boat, and now before his eyes was a real and effective "instrument" of sea power (and helpfully "open").

In subsequent years, Peter I showed that he was not just a "tsar-carpenter", but an outstanding statesman, strategist who, in an extremely unfavorable military-political and economic situation, managed to win the Northern War and make a backward agrarian country an empire. This happened in battles, where the "hands" of the state were the army and the navy, and the latter, completely new for the state, had (thanks to the genius of Peter) a clear and clear concept of conceptual development and intended use at the "strategic level", as a result of which it grew very quickly tactically.

The example of Peter is underestimated today, and he is extremely important. During the Northern War, Russia faced a power that had not only a stronger army and navy, economy, but also significant naval experience. It would seem that there is no point in investing in a war at sea against such an enemy. But Peter didn't just invest. He was able to formulate principles, starting from which the weaker Russian fleet at that time successfully waged its war against Sweden. He created his own doctrine, on the basis of which the fleet fought and won the war (providing both landings in Sweden and the "interception" of Baltic trade in Russian ports).

Having a clear and precise understanding of what and why they were doing, the Russian sailors began to defeat the enemy against whom, in theory, they should have had no chance.

Today we are in a somewhat similar situation: there are a lot of rivals and coalitions around, unconditionally hostile to our country and having superiority in forces at sea. And the example given by the first Russian emperor is more relevant today than ever.

Peter, who loved holidays and understood the great political and educational role of a worthy celebration of "victories", after the first major victory of the Russian fleet in 1714 at Gangut, staged the first naval parade in St. Petersburg.

Parade in honor of Gangut, engraving by A.F. Zubov and P. Picart

A huge naval parade took place on August 11, 1723 at the Kronstadt raid after the victory over Sweden in the Northern War. The fleet, which played a strategic role in the war, met with dignity its first "ship" - a small boat, from which the Russian fleet began, at the tiller of which was Peter the Great himself. The boat passed along the entire formation of the ships saluting it (only battleships - 21, more than 1,5 thousand guns in total).

Victory parade over Sweden

Unfortunately, Peter I did not leave the descendants of the written concept of sea power for Russia. The introduced charter of the fleet turned out to be rather a "step back" from what and how the fleet was successfully doing in the Northern War ... And although the fleet had many victories and achievements ahead, there were also periods when it existed rather by inertia, without a clear goal and clear for all sense (with a corresponding "failure" of its combat readiness).

Admiral Lazarev and the Crimean War. About real combat training and show

There are two known pictures of the fleet reviews with the participation of Nicholas I: A.P. Bogolyubov. "Review of the Baltic Fleet" 1848, and Aivazovsky "Black Sea Fleet" in 1849

Bogolyubov A.P. Review of the Baltic Fleet. 1848 year

At the same time, it is important to understand that there was an understanding that “things are heading for war”, and the reviews were not just a “drill”. Nicholas I was interested in the real combat capability of the fleet. And soon it had to be tested in practice. But the times were far from Peter's time.

The realities of that era were excellently described by the historian Sergey Makhov:

In the 1840s. For the first time, our Naval Department was concerned with the question that there is a fully combat-ready ship. We thought for a long time, argued, and in the end decided: a combat-ready ship is a ship that can at least withstand the fire of its guns and not fall apart in a strong wind. We were delighted! Class! Formulated gracefully and beautifully! We decided to apply this principle to the available ships and a little ... ate fish soup: out of 35, only 14 can withstand the fire of their guns and not fall apart.
The problem was that the elegant formula had already been voiced before Tsar Nikolai Pavlovich. Frightened ... But the need for inventions is cunning ...
Nikolai listened to these verbal escapades and ... asked to explain in normal Russian what was meant ... The admirals were afraid to explain, and the tsar did not fully understand anything. And he asked his son Konstantin to figure out what was going on with the tarry asses.
Konstantin figured it out. By 1853. When the Crimean War had already begun and it was too late to take measures. They say he swore for a long time.

When the war had been raging for a year, in 1854 the military council of the Baltic Fleet decided to completely abandon active operations, giving the sea to the enemy. This decision of the council made Nicholas I exclaim in anger:

"Was the fleet existed and maintained for that, so that at the moment when it is really needed, I was told that the fleet is not ready for the job!"

The Baltic Fleet was not ready ... Then came emergency measures that did not allow the Allies to break through to the capital, but it was just an "impromptu". The fleet, which looked beautiful and powerful at the imperial review in 1848, turned out to be absolutely unsuitable for business and battle.

The inspection of the Black Sea Fleet by the emperor took place in 1849, but the situation there was absolutely opposite to the Baltic one.

Review of the Black Sea Fleet in 1849 (Aivazovsky, the artist witnessed the review, accompanying Nicholas I)

In 1849, the Black Sea Fleet is not only in a combat-ready state under the command of the reformer Admiral Lazarev, it was "at the peak of its form", being ready to give battle to any enemy, even the Turks, even the French, even the British, even the devil himself ... And win!

On October 8, 1833, Lazarev became the commander of the Black Sea Fleet. Combat training at the Black Sea Fleet: horror, the fleet did not go to sea for three years.

Sergey Makhov speaks:

Having become a fleet commander, Lazarev set two main tasks: training crews and creating a normal material base ...
In 1834, "Cannon Exercise", "Rules for Preparing a Ship for Battle", "Instructions for Lieutenants on Watch", etc. were introduced as mandatory. Lazarev, probably for the first time in the Russian fleet in 1841, conducts training battles between squadrons.
Lazarev fully supports those officers who show a passion for command. In English style, he supports the Master and Commander Institute, advancing first of all those who have experience in independent command and navigation.
The barbarian-Anglophile Lazarev swung at the sacred - he demanded and believed that it is necessary to promote and appoint people only according to their ability. And that their origin and connections do not play any role!
...
And as a result, by 1841, Mikhail Petrovich succeeded: Lazarev made a combat, normal, floated fleet on the Black Sea. Which in every possible way improved its combat training, conducted practical sailing and shooting at sea, but which still lacked the infrastructure.
What is the great merit of Lazarev? He actually not so much made up the states (of the fleet), but also fully complied with them. But the problem was not only to build, the fact is that our shipyards could only build 1 battleship at a time. And Lazarev begins a complete modernization of the shipbuilding industry ...

All this is described in detail in the excellent articles by Sergey Makhov, we will highlight the main thing:

Lazarev pays attention to real combat training, he does not care about parades and shagistika.
Menshikov, who visited Sevastopol in 1836, was not particularly pleased with the passage of the troops of the Sevastopol garrison in the parade formation. He writes to Lazarev: “You have no expert in this respect. Shouldn't I send you an Exercirmeister? " To which the fleet commander says that he is not interested in how they walk, the main thing is how they will fight... At this time in the Baltic Sea, forgetting about the real study, sailors drill on the parade ground and learn to step. For the prince and the emperor are pleased to see this.

And "tomorrow there was a war" ... Alas, Lazarev was no longer alive, and the system he created had a key element of himself not only as a talented reformer admiral, but also as a person whom the sovereign trusted unconditionally.

The victory in Sinop over a weak enemy (the Turks) was the trigger for England and France to enter the war, and the landing of a large allied assault force in the Crimea. The Black Sea Fleet was inactive, having given the sea to the enemy ... At the same time, today it is known that our enemy was in a very bad condition, and by giving him a battle (which Kornilov demanded), our fleet had a great chance of getting its Trafalgar. Alas, instead, everything ended with the sinking of ships (the first of which were sunk in general with guns and supplies) ...

And the preparation of the fleet has not gone anywhere, as an example - the battle between steam frigates on June 3, 1854 ... The British (Close) for some reason designated this battle on June 11, but it also says that “the enemy had organized an excellent look-out service along the coast, and noted and reported every movement of the frigates ”, but the battle was really on an equal footing. For - suddenly! - the sailors and captains did not know that the British could not be defeated, that, according to some ... "It is contraindicated for Russia to fight at sea", they just did what they knew how. What difference does it make who to shoot at? An Englishman dies in exactly the same way as a Turk.
But mind you - this is no longer the policy of the fleet, but an initiative ...
And finally, the September 9 meeting [on the flooding of the fleet]. The fleet leader is gone. The plans were disrupted. Fighting is prohibited. There are squabbles inside the fleet that have not yet broken out, but just about. At the same time - do not forget - the cover in the form of Lazarev is no longer there, and if anything - they will be judged by the charter, which preaches only unconditional obedience and caution.

We see an anti-example in relation to Peter. Only one admiral has an understanding of why a fleet is needed and how it needs to be managed, the rest of those in power have only a vague understanding that, generally speaking, a fleet is needed, but nothing more.

As a result, the replacement of combat training with show and shagistika. It looks great, but, alas, it does not help to fight.

On the Black Sea, the situation is somewhat different - a combat-ready fleet was created, but alas, the only person who had an understanding of what and how to use it died.

Left without a clear understanding of why they exist, the sailors abruptly give up. The rest is known. Large-scale reviews did not help.

Almost like today. Early XNUMXth century

At the end of July (according to the old style) of 1902, the highest inspection of the Imperial Navy ships took place in the roadstead of Revel (now Tallinn). Emperor Nicholas II, German Kaiser Wilhelm II, German ships were present as "guests". Soon, most of the new warships participating in the review went to the Pacific Ocean, to the new naval base in Port Arthur.

Squadron battleships "Victory" and "Retvizan" at the parade in honor of the meeting of Emperors Nicholas II and Wilhelm II in 1902

Inspections of the ships became regular for some time. In 1903, the Baltic Fleet took part in a grand celebration on the occasion of the 200th anniversary of St. Petersburg. And in 1904, when the Russo-Japanese War was already underway, the 2nd Pacific Squadron, which was destined to pass around the world and meet with the Japanese fleet in the strait near Tsushima Island, and almost completely perish (the remaining ships surrendered , only a few ships and a messenger ship broke through to Vladivostok).

"Retvizan" in Port Arthur. "Victory" in the same place, not far away

It must be said that the holidays and celebrations with the participation of the fleet in Russia in those years were very large-scale and spectacular, and the prestige of the naval service was high. In combat readiness, however, there were such failures that cost Russia a brutal defeat in the Russo-Japanese War, with dire political and, which is still underestimated, psychological consequences.

At the same time, before the outbreak of the Russo-Japanese War, many domestic sailors clearly underestimated the complexity and responsibility of the case to which they dedicated themselves (“there were many good sailors, but there were very few good sailors”).

From the book of V. Yu. Gribovsky "Vice-Admiral Rozhestvensky":

There is no doubt that the July "show" of 1902, organized by Rozhdestvensky with the participation, on duty, of his subordinates and (according to the established custom) the admiral-general and the head of the ministry, was purely ostentatious ...
At the end of the maneuvers and firing, Wilhelm at Tirpitz said to Nicholas II:
- I would be happy if I had such talented admirals as your Rozhestvensky in my fleet.
Nikolai believed him, and treasured his opinion, smiled happily. He first kissed ... Grand Duke Alexei Alexandrovich, and then - Rozhdestvensky. The admiral, in a fit of highly subservient feelings, bent down, grabbed the tsar's hand and pressed his lips tightly to it, but then he straightened up and, wishing to strengthen the impression made on the crowned sovereign, firmly declared:
- That would be when we fight, your imperial majesty.

Then there was Port Arthur and the Tsushima defeat of our fleet. Before the departure of the 2nd Pacific Squadron, Rozhestvensky himself already looked at his combat prospects in a completely different way. But it was too late. It was necessary to prepare for war earlier, now it was only necessary to fight. But behind our sailors there was insufficient and frankly weak preparation of the fleet for the war that had actually begun and was already underway (from strategy in general to the choice of the type of shells) and too much ceremonial gloss.

In 1908, a book was published in Geneva "Panama of the Russian fleet" Boris Tageev, a man of amazing biography, released under the pseudonym Rustam Bek. The word "Panama" in the old days was used (and in some places it is still used) in the meaning of "scam". After the huge scandal that erupted in France in 1892-1893 due to the monstrous corruption and theft in the construction of the Panama Canal, any fraud on an especially large scale began to be called "Panama".

The book was of a revelatory nature and was devoted to the disclosure of vices that were characteristic of the Russian imperial fleet in the pre-war years and at the beginning of the war with Japan. Tageev knew the topic well - he himself took part in the war, served in Port Arthur and was captured by the Japanese.

Here is just one quote from this work:

All the submission telegrams about the combat readiness of the fleet flew, and the whole of Russia, through the rattling weapons "Novoye Vremya" and similar publications, I read about the mighty stronghold in the Far East in the person of the Pacific Ocean squadron.
Thanks to the lackey newspaper "Novy Kray", Lieutenant Colonel of the Maritime Department P.A. Artemyev, the combat training of our fleet was inflated to the last degree. Flattering, laudatory articles were reprinted by Russian newspapers, and the bribed French organ in Shanghai, "Echo de Chine", echoed its Amur comrade, fogging the already giddy heads of the sailors.

The rest is known. But how similar it is to what we are seeing today!

Our days. GVMP-2020

At the end of July, Russia traditionally celebrates the Day of the Navy. In 2020, this day falls on July 26, and at the same time the Main Naval Parade took place in St. Petersburg.



Parades are good, but only when the troops and forces represented at them are combat-ready without reservation. In the case of the Russian Navy, this is not entirely true, and instead of a feeling of indestructible military power, the Main Parade evokes completely different associations, mainly with the times of Nicholas II and Rozhdestvensky.

The “facade of the parade” should not cover up the real problems of the fleet, the fact that everything was “beautiful in the parade” should not be an excuse for the existence of critical problems of our fleet (the level of which even means defeat, but defeat in war).

And this is the main problem of our GVMP! We now have “everything is fine”, the problems are not just “no”, they “simply cannot but be”! Moreover, all this is happening not only at the level of the layman, but also at the "top military-political leadership." In fact, our Main Naval Parades serve precisely to replace real work with a bright picture.

There are questions about which ships participated in the parade.

Why "drag" a Project 949A nuclear submarine cruiser (APCR) to the GVMP? Yes, this is still a powerful strike ship (under skillful control and command), a factor of which is still perceived by the US Navy as a sword of Damocles. However, the modernization of the agro-industrial complex of project 949A and only 3 generations of nuclear-powered ships was disrupted (moreover, it was actually deliberately disrupted), and only a few units of nuclear-powered ships of the 3rd generation will actually be able to get the long-established medium repair (with modernization) in the future. Today, in terms of its technical level, the Orel AICR presented at the GVMP corresponds to the technical level of the mid-80s, while having serious operating restrictions!

The acute issue of the small residual resource of the agro-industrial complex, which, instead of combat training at sea and long-distance campaigns, is knocked out on the parade, is no longer discussed. In the end, if you need a nuclear-powered ship at the GVMP, then there is a representative "atomic self-propelled test stand" of project 941UM "Dmitry Donskoy", the resource of which was restored after a medium repair, but which has long had no combat value.

The modernization of the ships that were still quite suitable for business, disrupted by the Navy, is especially clearly visible on the example of the participants of the GVMP: the raid and base minesweepers (details in the articles of M. Klimov "What's wrong with our minesweepers" и "What's wrong with the" newest "PMK project 12700").

In their present form, these are long outdated and absolutely worn out units that do not have any combat value (just carry the flag at the parade). Why put this shame on the Navy at the GVMP?

Especially taking into account the fact that abroad they are quite successfully modernizing the ships of our export projects, incl. mine action.

Vietnamese minesweeper of project 266E with modern anti-mine devices PLUTO

Why was it disgraced by the demonstration at the GVMP not just of the imported mine-action system DIAMAND (of which BEC INSPECTOR is a part), but of an actually incapable of combat system, unable to solve problems in any difficult (real) conditions? Moreover, the imposition of which on the fleet was accompanied by very foul-smelling details and the squeezing (for the sake of "import") of successful domestic developments.

An example of an international cut of Russian money: BEC INSPECTOR against the background of the PMK project 12700. The boat, according to the mind, should be placed on an anti-mine ship, but alas, it cannot

Of interest is the fact that they did not show at the GVMP-2020, namely, the "Thundering" corvette of project 20385. Once this ship promised to become a development of the 20380 series and at the same time the founder of a new one. But it did not grow together.

I would like to know: why he did not participate in the parade? At one time, the fact that the customer had not yet accepted the ship did not prevent the frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" from being demonstrated at the parade. Is everything okay with "Thundering"? It should be borne in mind that this ship is equipped with a fundamentally new, rather complex and very expensive radar system. Who and why pushed this radar on the ship of the near sea zone, which should be massive and cheap, is unclear. Does this ship with its expensive radar shoot down air targets?

Corvette project 20385 "Thundering"

The fact that the new corvette was not shown at the parade is alarming. It's somehow not our way to hide the newest ship. There is a statement in the media of the ex-director of the Severnaya Verf about "accelerated state tests" in order to hand over the ship to the Navy by the end of August, however, given the fact that today the "Zaslon" radar of the "Thundering" could not ensure the downing of a single air target, the absence of "Thundering" on the GVMP is, rather, "remove the Supreme from the eyes" (so that uncomfortable questions do not arise).

The situation with the marine aviation...

Symbolic photo. A rescue seaplane with problematic seaworthiness, and two museum pieces, but they are not in the role of museum pieces at the parade!

There has been no naval missile-carrying aviation since 2010, the Aerospace Forces did not find even one Tu-22M3 from the Long-Range Aviation for the Supreme Commander-in-Chief and the GVMP. This is very symbolic: if a war happens, the Aerospace Forces will not give aircraft to the fleet. Their tasks in bulk. Yes, and preparation for flights over the sea and strikes against aircraft carrier groups and ship formations need special (including in terms of interaction with the Navy).

Demonstration of absolutely ancient Il-38s at the parade is like giving up on anti-submarine aviation in general: something flies there, and okay ... If the Il-38N with the Novella can still do something, then the Il-38 with the original search sighting system "Baku" practically lost its combat significance back in the 90s.

Helicopters, too, could not evoke positive emotions: the Ka-27 and Ka-29 are no longer produced in Russia, the promising Lamprey is still very far away, in fact we do not have serial marine helicopters. On the modernized Ka-27 shown at the parade, there is a high-frequency GAS, ineffective for searching for submarines, and ... the search and targeting system (PPS) is completely absent. Installed instead of the "native" for the Ka-27PL PPS "Octopus" "crutches" in the form of command-tactical and radio-hydroacoustic systems can in no way be a replacement for the "cut out" PPS "Octopus".

With all this, there is certainly a good thing, and at GVMP-2020 it was the first serial frigate "Admiral of the Fleet Kasatonov" of project 22350. The fleet, the Ministry of Defense, the defense industry have done a lot of work on fine-tuning the project, and now, despite a number primarily in terms of anti-submarine defense, including because of the Ka-27M helicopter), this is a very worthy project that can be truly proud of.

A series of new IRAs of project 22800 was launched, which convincingly showed that our industry, with a normal organization, is able to build fully combat-ready ships quickly and inexpensively. With RTOs, however, there is a question: about ¼ of the cost of a strike aircraft carrier has been invested in the series of "Karakurt" and "Buyanov-M". The question arises: do they also need to be protected from submarines and aircraft? It would be much more logical to create such ships as multipurpose.

But, alas, the fleet today has a new religion - "calibrating". The matter is important and useful, but the matter should not be reduced to it alone. The main threat to Russia from the sea is underwater. Ships should be able to somehow fight submarines.

We do not have this understanding.

Nevertheless, the ships of Project 22800 "turned out", it is especially worth noting the truly outstanding work of the designers. They would still have the correct tactical and technical task ...

And in aviation there are new Su-30SM and MiG-29KUB naval fighters. Both are very useful, the only pity is that they are few.

Su-30SM. Photo from GVMP-2019. The plane is very "to the place" replaces the Su-24M, but slowly

The brand new "Varshavyanka" for the Pacific Fleet, the submarine "Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky", the first missile carrier "Caliber" built for the Pacific Fleet passed in service in Kronstadt. True, I immediately want to ask the question: is there a sane telecontrol for torpedoes there? Anti-torpedoes? Possibility to apply PLUR? Low frequency towed extended antenna? The answer to all questions is no. And why?

But because it was more important for some to report that the boat was built than to strain and hand over to the Navy a ship that was combat-ready without discounts. But instead of anti-torpedoes (and effective anti-torpedo protection), the boat received journal entries about participation in the parade.

And this is also a symbol.

And the GVMP, and those ships that pass in parade on this day, and naval aviation today as a symbol of the Navy as a whole: money is invested, ships are being built, but without effective weapons. Yes, our strike missiles are traditionally strong and effective, but you still have to get to the point of the salvo!

New "ones" are added, but critical vulnerabilities remain, each of which is capable of sinking the Navy even in a war with a weak but competent enemy.

Like a soldier who has everything - absolutely everything except the cartridges. And nowhere to take cartridges. At the same time, one cannot say that he is not good for anything. He is healthy, physically trained, more or less trained, well equipped.

He is simply de facto unarmed. But it doesn't matter for parades, does it?

Conclusion

The military parade is not just a holiday. It is a symbol of military power, and it is not for nothing that the concept of “review” exists in something similar in content. This is a show of military strength. Show your citizens to create a sense of belonging, pride and confidence in the power of the society of which they are a part.

Show to other nations: some to be afraid to attack, others to believe in the capabilities of a potential ally.

Parades are an important element of international diplomacy. You can recall the grandiose parades in England at the Spithead Raid. In 1937, the Soviet battleship Marat was present at the parade in honor of the coronation of George VI.

"Marat" in England

The irony of the situation is that it was the review and maneuvers at the Spithead raid, shown by William III to Peter, that became one of the key factors that made Russia a maritime power. In this regard, the emotional reaction in the British media to our Main Naval Parade is not surprising.

It is also necessary to note here a very worthy representation of Russia at the parade in honor of the 70th anniversary of the PLA in 2019 in Qindao. The newest frigate of project 22350 "Admiral Gorshkov" took part in it, which was much better than if an old Soviet-built ship had come from the Pacific Fleet. "Gorshkov" showed our neighbors that no matter what crisis we are in in terms of shipbuilding, our designers and engineers are still capable of creating modern military equipment, and the industry, albeit slowly, is beginning to overcome the crisis. This was an important signal.

But behind "ceremonial diplomacy" there should be real opportunities, and in the case of the Navy, they should imply the absence of serious vulnerabilities.

We can afford to build few ships, but we cannot afford to leave "holes" in defenses, for example, in mine action capabilities.

On the way, our submarines are outdated compared to the enemy's boats, but their potential must be realized to the maximum, with all means of hydroacoustic countermeasures, anti-torpedoes and a high level of crew training, primarily tactical. Then the message, which is the parade, reflects reality and brings unconditional benefit to the country.

But if the parade is a giant bluff, and if it is followed by what followed the ceremonial parades of the beginning of the last century (Port Arthur and Tsushima), then the effect of the parades turns into a catastrophe, and allies and opponents completely lose faith and fear. But the most important thing is that the faith in the power of the population is completely and unconditionally lost.

People love to watch parades, but if they feel cheated, the consequences will be unpredictable ...

Had we now even enter into sluggish clashes with some competent adversary who will be able to "work out" on our weak points (mine and anti-submarine defense, for example), not allowing ourselves to impose those scenarios in which we are strong (a fight with any surface ships), and our political system will receive a blow from which it will never rise. The most powerful propaganda convinced the people that we are, if not the strongest in the world, then almost the most.

Several submarines destroyed "dry" and a mined base, from which we cannot quickly and without losses get out, will give the population the impression not only that they have been lied to, but that the entire state machine is weak, inferior and unusable.

At the same time, due to the fact that crowds do not know how to think rationally, everything that comes from the authorities will be considered a lie. Even the truth.

And this is already a revolutionary situation.

So naval parades, behind which there is no real power, can go so sideways to us that it defies any description. This does not mean that they should not be carried out, in any case. They are needed and exactly in the form in which they are carried out. They just should not replace real military capabilities.

Parades are needed. But the military strength shown at the GVMP must be real. Without a single props element. Real minesweepers with real, not museum, mine action capabilities, real and not mythical anti-torpedoes on all warships and submarines without exception, real sonar stations on ship helicopters, and not rarities from which the Turks would fall to the ground laughing.

Now, unfortunately, this is not the case, and for our country it is very dangerous.

Comments

[Grandfather]

too many props and lies, it has become in our country, from top to bottom.

[marchcat]

But the most important thing is that the faith in power among the population is completely and unconditionally lost.

There are still those who firmly believe ... those who voted "for" zeroing.

[bistrov.]

Quote: Dead Day

too many props and lies, it has become in our country, from top to bottom.
Reply

In any country lies above the roof, but you should not shit on your country.

[Courier]

I agree, you should not shit.

We must wait hard for the new June 22, 41. New blitzkrieg, new millions of victims.
But you shouldn't shit, don't you dare, the king's reputation is under threat!

[bistrov.]

Quote: Courier

We must wait hard for the new June 22, 41.

Just don't panic. "Some" like to go into hysterics ....

[snucerist]

Yes, you don't need to shit.
You just have to hush up all the problems.
You just have to shout from each iron "urrrya !!!" how much dope there is 24 hours a day.
And everything will be all right.

[georgigennadievitch]

You, like the author, are too categorical. Of course, everything should be twice as much or better, but so far. And in general, the fleet is becoming one of the main strike forces of our Armed Forces.

[timokhin-aa]

Formally it becomes, but in fact it does not. Like a soldier without bullets.

[timokhin-aa]

What does "shit" mean in your understanding?

[bayard]

A citizen is simply not familiar with the concept of "CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM".

[dauria]

A citizen is simply not familiar with the concept of "CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM".

So there is nowhere to meet ... The concept is, criticism is not allowed.
As with a unicorn - there is a word, but no beast.
To the author - the article is strong. I hope ours will not get involved in a "light war" calculated on fright. Well, and if the carnage is grown-up, then the role of the mighty US Navy in the Cuban missile crisis has been reduced to a simple "go under the bench, you do not decide here."

[max702]

Here you need to understand, and what is the need for a fleet in general? There are two serious opponents, NATO and China .. Any of them will immediately turn into a nuclear war, because without the use of nuclear weapons, the loss is unambiguous and inevitable, and this situation will continue in the coming decades .. With the rest of the countries, the issue can be resolved even without the use of the fleet .. That's the question for What do you need a fleet if you still get a nuclear club? By and large, the fleet is only needed for escort operations and against pirate actions ... That is, the task of the ships is to escort the necessary ship without letting it be arrested by some police force and to repulse the pirates' thugs, if there is a conflict with a serious warship, then the whole task is to report this to the headquarters .. All .. Then completely different forces and means will be involved .. No one is going to really fight at sea, because in this case, the blow will have to be done first of all on the headquarters that make such decisions, which has never happened before in the history of mankind, previously sending galleons , battleships and other headquarters did not particularly risk anything, but now the risk is enormous, and the answer will be almost instantaneous and everyone understands this ... Therefore, it makes no sense to invest seriously in the fleet, even the United States is beginning to understand this, although they have this one of the most important industries in the country. That is why the calibers are shoved into each ship with them at least something useful can be done, unlike other weapons pribluds.

[Bashkirkhan]

did not show at the GVMP-2020, namely - the corvette "Thundering" project 20385. Once this ship promised to become the development of the 20380 series and at the same time the founder of a new one. But it did not grow together.
I would like to know: why he did not participate in the parade? At one time, the fact that the customer had not yet accepted the ship did not prevent the frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" from being demonstrated at the parade. Is everything okay with "Thundering"?

"Thundering" at the time of the parade was in the floating dock of the "Severnaya Verf". Yesterday they were supposed to be launched.

[timokhin-aa]

I know. I will never believe that they would not have had time to prepare him even for standing in the roadstead.

[Bashkirkhan]

The corvette was not handed over to the fleet, the terms have gone far to the right. Preparation for the parade and participation itself is also a time. At the same time, "Thundering" has already participated in the parade last year.

[timokhin-aa]

From Maxim, quotes from an interview with the general director of Severnaya Verf:

- When is the delivery of the Project 20385 "Thundering" corvette expected?

- At the end of November, we plan to bring the ship to the factory sea trials with a deadline of October 2019. We plan to submit it earlier.

https://tass.ru/interviews/5590184

And, after almost two years

- When is Severnaya Verf planning to hand over to the Russian Navy a Project 20385 Thundering corvette? At what stage of state tests is it?

- "Thundering" will come to the plant next week. It will undergo minor improvements, and in early July it will go to the completion of state tests, after which it will return to the plant. And at the end of August we plan to transfer it to the Navy.
The ships showed very good performance in nine months of testing. There were no malfunctions either with the frigate "Admiral of the Fleet Kasatonov" or with the corvette "Thundering" during the test period. The only question is a more thorough check by the Ministry of Defense of all the technical characteristics of weapons systems, energy and so on. I believe that the plant will fulfill its obligations for these two ships.

12.06.2020

Nothing like that - at the end of August to hand over to the Navy, especially taking into account that all the deadlines for this have long been thwarted, and the Zaslon radar is not Shmog to ensure the shooting down of a single air target.
At the same time, from 20385, even the Puma radar control system was "thrown out", which had previously become the "salvation" for the "Fourke" radar of 20380 corvettes (firing was carried out precisely through the "Puma")

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: timokhin-aa

At the same time, from 20385, even the Puma radar control system was "thrown out", which had previously become the "salvation" for the "Fourke" radar of 20380 corvettes (firing was carried out precisely through the "Puma")

Yes, they did everything "wisely" to spoil the ship completely. However, there are no limits to human stupidity, according to rumors - even by design, shelter, by the way, AFAR does not implement the transmission of radio correction commands to missiles. Was it really impossible to standardize the ships of Project 22800 and Project 20380 by installing a Marine Armor. However, this is also obvious in the example of both Thundering and Shaposhnikov's modernity, the sawmills of the Budget from the military-industrial complex and the command of the fleet finally found each other and merged in ecstasy ...

[bayard]

Quote: timokhin-aa

and the "Zaslon" radar is not "Shmog" to ensure the shooting down of a single air target.

If it had only been about the "Barrier", it would not have stood in the dock, but would have dangled at the wall, and took part in the parade. There seems to be a whole range of problems.
And the problems with the "Barrier" are especially depressing, because the turrets with them ("Barriers") have already begun to be installed at 20380 as regular ones.

[Bashkirkhan]

Quote: bayard

turrets with them ("Barriers") were already installed at 20380 as standard

The masts of the extreme four 20380 and 20385 are, in my opinion, different in shape. At 20385, the superstructure was designed for a mast. At 20380, the new mast was designed for a superstructure. Let's see how the corvette "G RF Aldar Tsydenzhapov" will pass the state tests.

[timokhin-aa]

There the mast structures are different, the radars are very similar to each other.

[Bashkirkhan]

The corvette "G. RF Aldar Tsydenzhapov" IBMK is very expensive, there will obviously not be a large series. And as you have pointed out repeatedly in publications in
A hole has formed in the near sea zone. Whence it follows that in the very near future a certain IPC will appear to replace the old Soviet 1124. Perhaps, on the basis of 22800, as you pointed out, or a fundamentally new development - small, inexpensive, and of which at least two dozen can be built. But time has already passed, of course.

[timokhin-aa]

There is a damning complex of circumstances.
IPC to do again - there are no diesels, we have an available power plant, this is only DDA-12000 from the corvette.
Corvette to do - GAS Zarya is expensive, the production cycle is long, and not only for her.
And the time has already passed, as you wrote.

[Bashkirkhan]

As I understand it, while the era of the sailing fleet was still Russia was even more or less able to fight at sea, and with the advent of steam engines to this day, everything is very ambiguous. I don’t know where we’ll end up.

[timokhin-aa]

Despite the fact that it was only in the heads. In the theory of combat use and the military-political leadership's understanding that the fleet is needed as a type of armed forces.
If this comes, everything else will come.
In the same Russian-Japanese game, it was possible, if not to win at sea, then to reduce to a draw.
But it was necessary to understand a simple thing - the first purpose of the fleet was to destroy the enemy's fleet or weaken it, preventing him from establishing uncontested dominance at sea.
An example showing that everything was possible can be considered the raid "Cupid" for example.
Minus two battleships for the Japanese.
That is, it was necessary to use any opportunities, to approach the issue creatively.
To be honest, the bottom we hit is a good place to rethink.

[Bashkirkhan]

Quote: timokhin-aa

raid "Cupid" for example.

Yes, "Cupid" greatly annoyed the Japanese. And that is because he set the mines farther from the coast than planned.

[Nemchinov Vl]

Quote: timokhin-aa

There is a damning complex of circumstances.
IPC to do again - there are no diesels, we have an available power plant, this is only DDA-12000 from the corvette.
Corvette to do - GAS Zarya is expensive, the production cycle is long, and not only for her.

on the same power plant and with that GAS, it is necessary to make corvettes 1124 to replace 11664, only with the Shtil-1 air defense system, and not the Redoubt !!!. and will not No more hemorrhoids to replace MPKsheu ...

[Ilshat]

which had not only a stronger army and navy, economy,

And why the economy?
Russia surpassed Sweden in population 5 times, in territory all 10 or more ...
And the productivity of the land is not comparable - either the indoor climate of the Russian Plain, black soil, or the cold Swedish swamps and mountains ...
Backwardness - yes, there was ...
But the size of the economy of agrarian countries, and then everyone was like that, is determined by the collection of taxes from agriculture, that is, by population and territory.

[timokhin-aa]

But the size of the economy of agricultural countries, and then everyone was like that, is determined by the collection of taxes from agriculture, that is, by population and territory.

Take a look at Holland. And compare the yield of anything in the Baltics, for example, and somewhere in the Voronezh region.

[Ilshat]

Or look at the map?
The war was not with Holland.
Russia is not only Voronezh.

[timokhin-aa]

You did not understand. With Holland, I illustrated your thesis that all countries were agrarian.
Not all.

Russia is also Arkhangelsk and Tobolsk. Well, compare with them, no question. Yes, at least with anything.

[Ilshat]

And yet, even now, without Ukraine, Russia ranks first in the world in terms of the area of ​​chernozems.
Where was it near Poltava?
Stick a stick there - it will bloom!
I do not compare Sweden with Tobolsk, but with Russia.

[timokhin-aa]

The question is that even then there were a lot of countries that earned not only on agricultural, but in some cases simply NOT on it. The most extreme example of such a country is Holland.
Sweden was also in this club.

[Ilshat]

Which does not mean at all that this is enough to compare with a country many times superior in territory, population, natural resources, climate, etc. etc.

[English tarantas]

And the meaning then was from the land and people, while you bring grain and people from the south to St. Petersburg, half of them will remain and a lot of time will pass

[parusnik]

Another worries about how many military shipyards on the Black Sea coast ... One or two and missed ... Ships not only need to be built, but also to be repaired, modernized ...

[Undecim]

Parades are needed. But the military strength shown at the GVMP must be real.
Window dressing is an ancient and all-embracing tradition, rooted in the hoary antiquity, in the days of the kings and boyars.
This method for manipulating the mass consciousness, creating illusions and conditions for controlling the masses and even for covering one's own ass is very effective today, therefore no one is going to give it up. Moreover, at all levels.

[Octopus]

Quote: Undecim

therefore no one is going to give it up.

)))
Golda Meir seems to have formulated something like this: Israel has no money for parades, and Israeli soldiers have no time for that.

But we don't have Golda Meir here, of course.

[Vitaly gusin]

Quote: Octopus

Golda Meir seems to have formulated something like this

In the sense, yes, but in general it was so
"1968. The last military parade in Israel after the Six Day War in liberated Jerusalem. The parade was attended by about 4500 military personnel, over 400 units of military equipment (not counting trophies), as well as 400 aircraft.
Seeing the estimate for the parade held, Golda Meir said that there would be no more military parades in Israel - they are ruinous for the country. She added that only African dictators hold military parades, and Israel's military power is at such a high level that it does not need constant demonstrations. Since then, no military parades have been held in the country. "

[Octopus]

Quote: Vitaly Gusin

military parades are held only by African dictators,

)))
How are you and Ms. Meir about the great geopolitics)))

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Octopus

How are you and Ms. Meir about the great geopolitics)))

Yeah ... François Mittterand and the other Chiracs now felt hurt.

[Cyril G ...]

I've also thought about them. Great African dictators! Oops! What a surprise! Sometimes it is better to chew shorter.

[Octopus]

Quote: Alexey RA

François Mittterand and the other Chiracs now feel hurt

Offended under the bunk.

[Vitaly gusin]

Quote: Octopus

How are you and Ms. Meir about the great geopolitics)))
Reply

Thank you very much for appreciating me so highly, but my only achievement is that I corrected you.
I can only assume that she knew what she was talking about.

[Octopus]

Quote: Vitaly Gusin

I can only assume that she knew what she was saying

)))
I also completely agree with her.

[timokhin-aa]

And she added that only African dictators hold military parades

This is, to say the least, not so.

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: Octopus

But we don't have Golda Meir here, of course

To be equal to a woman, and even a Jewess, and even from Kiev? Zashkvar, however.

[Vitaly gusin]

Quote: Narak-zempo

To be equal to a woman, and even a Jewess, and even from Kiev? Zashkvar, however.

1 She is a woman and was the head of state.
2 A Jewess is no worse than another nationality.
3 And what, for you, a woman from Kiev is somehow different from a woman from any other country and city?
Before writing, think if you can.
You don't have to answer.

[Undecim]

Oh, show people fuss, I see the cons.

[timokhin-aa]

I have nothing against showing off. Have you been to an air show with aerobatic teams?
It's really great, especially for children and teenagers.
The problem is that with us and in the Navy, this has replaced real work.

[Undecim]

I have nothing against showing off. Have you been to an air show with aerobatic teams?
There were. Only an air show and window dressing are two different things. Absolutely.

[timokhin-aa]

Well, parades-reviews also have their own meaning.

[Undecim]

They have, who can argue.

[Andrey.AN]

"Show-off" does not replace real work, any show is a real teaching, public, for the whole world. Such parades are a good annual exam, if they are capable of them, then they are capable of a lot, and if they are not capable of them, then problems. For the Russian Federation, of course, the Navy is not ahead of all forces, as in countries with a concentration of human and industrial resources on the coast, and crowds of vandals on barges will not go to us, not resort shores, from the landing sites available for landing, the landing force will not pass mosquitoes, wolves and bears to the nearest villages. Here you need to understand that each ship has its own role, basically it is the protection of the bases of the submarine fleet and expeditionary forces, to support Kuznetsov and the same submarine fleet. By the way, the guard is not sickly.

[timokhin-aa]

... For the Russian Federation, of course, the Navy is not ahead of all forces

but this does not mean that he must be kept in a state of incapacity.

and crowds of vandals on barges will not come to us,

but unknown mines on the NSR may appear, for example. And we have zero minesweepers capable of fighting modern mines.

from the places available for disembarkation, the troops will not pass mosquitoes, wolves and bears to the nearest village.

I always want to show such theorists a map of Russia. Well, see it already, please.

Here you need to understand that each ship has its own role, basically it is the protection of the bases of the submarine fleet

Yes, you are the great genius of naval warfare, I see. On the other hand, yes - what population, so is the fleet.

[kepmor]

the deepest respect to the authors for the article !!!!
If only the lazy one does not speak about the huge gaps in the very concept of building the fleet and the lowest efficiency of the USC, then there is complete silence about the intensity and quality of combat training, as well as about the holy of holies - the technical readiness of ships and aircraft ...
and it's not just a certain degree of secrecy ... it's just that the "polar fox" whines there for a long time and plaintively ...
I will not disclose naval sources of information ... this is despicable ...
there are more than enough regular, prigozhenny ones ... these would hardly have missed, say, a search anti-submarine operation by the forces of the Kola or Kamchatka flotilla with practical firing of the same PLUR and torpedoes ... or ZTU forces of the Northern Fleet or Pacific Fleet, when all the "living" , and they shoot everything they can and cannot ...
why not heard, but because it simply does not exist ... there are parades with visits, but there are no KUGs with KPUGs in the sea ... fireworks with fireworks every other day, and there are no volleys of guns and tracers from anti-ship missiles and anti-aircraft missiles into the range ...
personally participated in such exercises, which were commonplace until the early 2000s ...
yes, the 90s were dashing ... but the fleet was also dashing then ... but sometimes they went "on the verge of a foul" and under personal responsibility ...


and then the ships of a fresh ball did not shine ... and no one sewed Stalin's uniforms for us ... and the officers received less than the bus driver ...

[timokhin-aa]

anti-submarine operation by the forces of the Kola or Kamchatka flotilla

And the ships to count in these flotillas? And the planes? How to carry it out? Now, for one more or less noticeable operation, it is necessary to literally drive the entire fleet, and the Pacific Ocean may not be enough.

My third article on "VO" was called "Fleet without ships" and for a reason, alas.

[Andrey.AN]

It is necessary to take into account over-the-horizon radars such as Container or Arc, etc. cover and target designation the entire adjacent water area of ​​both the Pacific and Atlantic oceans, if something pops up, by itself, unaccompanied by an atomic (they have no others) American submarine, there will not be much risk - the long-wave underwater communication will fire them (now waves of any length are detected after modulation from portable high-frequency interferometers), in order to communicate via a satellite, you have to surface, and they do not know exactly what KRET has and whom it has supplied. Modern anti-submarine operations may look very different. Now in general on the planet there are no nooks close to the surface.

[Andrey.AN]

By the way, surely all deep-sea approaches are mined with some kind of pale, without permission you can't go through, approach a torpedo launch to our land, suicide, a missile attack, too, the game of an idiot betting on the weakest chance. Sane people, with a lower chance than 50%, do not make bets, and those who want to raise their investment repeatedly, need 99%.

[Andrey.AN]

I look minus someone. Probably fills the aikyu test, feeling like an academician member of the examination committee, maybe they think that Americans like to put their skin on psychics and illegal immigrants, but you never know, these turned on checkboxes think, maybe they see themselves in nature, those who do not learn from them was written?

[timokhin-aa]

You are minus because you write nonsense. To just comment on you, I would have to write a separate article, such is your concentration.
This is unpleasant for people. Insults human dignity.

Better read something. Do not write, read. Now, for example, the Ministry of Defense has posted a military encyclopedia on its website, there are a lot of interesting things. For example, there is a definition of what is "target designation".
Well, all sorts of smart books. On radar, military history, electronic warfare, etc.

Well, then write.

[Andrey.AN]

Which one of your merits I offend, specify. And it's not clear what dignity the anonymous miners have, they guess well on the checkboxes, where to put them in the test? I have not tried these worthy ones at all in an honest dispute, they are extinguished in bushes like oak pawns.

[Andrey.AN]

Indeed, people have many advantages and disadvantages. What dignity have I touched on you?

[timokhin-aa]

I hate to see that a person can voluntarily give up the ability to think. And it is insulting to think that on formal grounds such a person is my equal.
Other people seem to feel the same way.
So they mold the cons for you.
But chances are, judging by the coherent written language that you demonstrate, self-education can help you.
Throw off the shackles, so to speak.

[The leader of the Redskins]

Eh! I was 35 years ago in Pereslavl-Zalesky. In the museum of that very "Botika". I really liked the little pushers then - the caliber is just a walnut!)))

[Indifferent]

I agree that not all is well in the Navy. But for some reason the author forgot that the foe is even worse! There are generally women and libers rule!

[Bashkirkhan]

Yes, even if in Russia buggers rule these positions as an admiral, if the result is a modern balanced fleet like the Anglo-Saxons.

[kepmor]

tooting...
by the way, the very concept of overgrowth in our time has changed dramatically ...
now it is not sexual orientation that determines the distortion, but the position in life and attitude towards others ...

[Bashkirkhan]

"You know Abram, Moishe is a homosexual.
- And sho does not give money?
- No, in a good way. "

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: Bashkirkhan

Yes, even if in Russia buggers rule these positions as an admiral, if the result is a modern balanced fleet like the Anglo-Saxons.

Then the spiritual bonds will rust and the ships will fall apart altogether.

[unknown]

1. In a healthy society, this should not be more than three percent.
What is our percentage threshold for getting into the Duma?
2. In the US, whites - 43 percent
FORTY percent of them are descendants of German settlers.

[timokhin-aa]

I care about American problems only in the sense that we could use them to our advantage.
They are not a justification for their own degradation. For me at least.

[Cyril G ...]

While the enemy is better and much, despite the extravaganza of collisions and accidents. It is necessary to try very hard to break such a structure as the Navy, although the American liberals are clearly trying, but then it is even more difficult to restore it. We ourselves are a living example of this

[Dmitry Vladimirovich]

I agree with the authors.
I started to watch the parade, but the bravura delights of the journalists and the poor composition of the ship's group do not go together ...
It became disgusting - "the king is naked ..."
There is little to be happy about - to work, work and work on the fleet!

The townsfolk got their spoon of honey in a barrel of ointment.

[Vladimir1155]

I fully support the distinguished Maxim Klimov and Sergey Timokhin

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: vladimir1155

Sergey Timokhin

Alexandra only

[Vladimir1155]

Sorry confused

[Sailor]

I agree with the author of the article 100000%, we have almost no fleet! And there is no naval aviation at all!

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Sailor

we have almost no fleet! And there is no naval aviation at all!

Resuscitation on the way: (clickable)

[Sailor]

It will be built on the way for 20 years, but it is needed the day before yesterday.

[Earthshaker]

The parade should not be instead of victories, the parade should be after the victory.

[timokhin-aa]

Yes, it can be completely without a war, the question is that it should not replace real combat readiness.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Earthshaker

The parade should not be instead of victories, the parade should be after the victory.

Do you propose to return to the Peter's practice of LOOKING at the ship composition of the fleets?
Then the supreme heart attack is enough! And Kozhugetovich would have to squeeze his "shoigushka", which he, contrary to tradition, hung on the ears of the naval commanders! (Shame! I do not like the "airfields, they left the" mushrooms "- nevertheless, it would be like a naval (and not bestial!) ...)

[Earthshaker]

Viewing in Peter's times was important, because linear tactics prevailed and the ships were sailing. And the review was an indicator of elementary combat training and staff training. In XXI, only bilateral exercises on a district scale can be a litmus test of the fleet's combat readiness. And the time spent on drills by shagistic officers of 35 and older officers could be spent with greater benefit. You cannot win a war at sea with stepping. You need to teach what you need in war ©.

[Senior seaman]

Weird feeling. On the one hand, I completely agree with the authors. Not everything is all right in the Kingdom of Danish ...
On the other hand, the historical part is clearly lame. I'm mainly talking about an episode taken from Gribovsky's book.
Well, first of all, the true author of this passage is Novikov-Priboy.
Secondly, Vladimir Yulievich, placing this fragment in his text, considered it necessary to make some reservations. I quote:

This is how he described the shooting at Fr. Carlos is a writer A.S. Novikov-Surf, who, According to himOn July 24, I was on the Minin's bridge with the task to monitor the fall of shells and mark in the notebook their undershoots, flights and hits:

and then:

Leaving the writer the right to factual inaccuracies and fiction

In other words, the captain of the first rank Gribovsky understood perfectly well that Novikov had invented this entire episode from beginning to end, since the likelihood that at the review in the presence of two emperors (!!!) a battalion would be put to monitor the accuracy of the fire, about the same as if the cook was entrusted to determine the distance, and the officer's messengers were instructed to direct the guns.

I'm all for this. When defending the truth, one must choose the arguments very carefully.

[timokhin-aa]

From Maxim:

Gribovsky considered it necessary to provide the data of the WITNESS testimony
and he is a very accurate person (personally very familiar). And why did you decide that Novikov-Priboy invented this?

at the review in the presence of two emperors (!!!), the battalion will be put to monitor the accuracy of the fire, about the same

there it is clearly written - "mark their undershoots in the notebook" - i.e. "recorder"
I will open a "hot military" for you :) I will open it, even now the "recorders" are often "unters" (as before).

So there is no reason to consider this quote as fiction.

[Senior seaman]

I have stated my reasons.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: timokhin-aa

So there is no reason to consider this quote as fiction.

Is.

Quote: timokhin-aa

Gribovsky considered it necessary to provide the data of the WITNESS testimony

This is not testimony, they were not given in court. This is evidence.

Quote: timokhin-aa

and he is a very accurate person (personally very familiar).

Not always, judging by his historical work. He has unreasonable numbers

Quote: timokhin-aa

And why did you decide that Novikov-Priboy invented this?

Novikov-Priboy set himself the task of painting Rozhdestvensky in black light. For this Novikov-Priboi did not shy away from outright lies, moreover - many times, in his "Tsushima". That is, Novikov-Priboy is deliberately biased. And Gribovsky, albeit indirectly, points to this.

Quote: Senior Sailor

Leaving the writer the right to factual inaccuracies and fiction

Quote: timokhin-aa

there it is clearly written - "mark their undershoots in the notebook" - i.e. "recorder"
I will open a "hot military" for you :) I will open it, even now the "recorders" are often "unters" (as before).

It is strange that in the artillery detachment there was no artilleryman capable of recording flights, and this was entrusted to the battalion.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

And so - the article is very good :))

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: Senior Sailor

since the likelihood that on review in the presence of two emperors (!!!)

What's the problem? Controllers for organizing practical firing at guns, on rangefinders, on the bridge, etc., were not invented yesterday. Reports were also written and submitted on command.

[Senior seaman]

What's the problem?

The fact that there are specially trained people for this.

[Cyril G ...]

There are - in control groups there are free officers, of which there are very few and competent sailors and non-commissioned officers are involved. With regards to those times.

[dgonni]

Super review! Timokhin is on top in terms of professionalism;)!

[timokhin-aa]

It's mainly Klimov. I basically formalized his idea, so to speak, my text here is about 35 percent, the rest is bringing Klimov's idea into a state that quickly reaches the brain of an ordinary reader.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: timokhin-aa

It's mainly Klimov. I basically designed his plan,

AHA, Ilf and Petrov at work!

[sevryuk]

Yes, somehow we are unlucky with polymers ...

[bandabas]

I do not in the least belittle the qualities of Peter the Great as a sovereign. But only history began to be rewritten under him. As a result, even from the Romanovs, nothing remained.

[kig]

On Monday, July 27, along the Zolotoy Rog Bay from the quays of Dalzavod to the seaport, the traditional trail of the Navy Day is spread. The VL.ru correspondent captured the water area covered with an oil film.

[timokhin-aa]

Old ships give such a trail due to fuel leaks. Corrosion, nothing special.
Because it is necessary to repair ships ON TIME.

[DrEng527]

Quote: timokhin-aa

Because it is necessary to repair ships ON TIME.

don't write an article - what's stopping you? Why does it take so long to repair?
Why did you find money for a super repair (100 yards! It's a lot even in bucks ...)
Is there no money to repair the loaves or 971? But one loaf is 24 * 3 = 72 caliber

[timokhin-aa]

I even already threw a plan for such an article, but I don't want to write it alone, I want to involve Klimov in it. But while he cannot decide when to start, he has other worries.

[DrEng527]

Quote: timokhin-aa

I even already threw a plan for such an article,

noticeably, we are waiting ...

[kig]

Quote: timokhin-aa

Old ships give such a trail due to fuel leaks. Corrosion, nothing special.

For some reason, merchant ships that are over 30 (and we have quite a few of them) do not leave such a mark. This is the corrosion of the minds, not the hulls.

[timokhin-aa]

This is a timely repair.

[kig]

What is there to argue, we are talking about the same thing, albeit in different words.

[BAI]

And "tomorrow there was a war" ... Alas, Lazarev was no longer alive

But there were his students - Nakhimov, Kornilov, Istomin. Yes, the same Butakov in the end. Are there admirals of this level in Russia now? Hence, probably, all the problems of the fleet.

[5-9]

They were the ones who heroically burned the block of wood, and against the white Sahib, they even went out into the sea to go out on a transport convoy and drowned themselves from food before the enemy? And there is no need to talk about steamships, this was another misunderstanding at that time

[Ivanchester]

The decision to sink the ships was taken by Prince Menshikov.
Admiral Kornilov, who held the highest position among all the above-listed naval commanders, was against, but could not do anything,

[5-9]

And here I agree with Menshikov. Moremans huddled into the bay under the protection of batteries, they don't stick their noses out of it, they sit on the priest evenly, eat and drink government grubs accompanied by stories about the terribly invincible French and British ... And so even the guns were removed and the sailors were sent to fight ...

[Boa kaa]

Quote: 5-9

Moremans huddled in the bay under the protection of batteries, they don't stick their noses out of it, sit on the priest evenly, eat and drink government grubs while listening to stories about the terribly invincible French and British ...

Sir! Are you trying to accuse the Black Sea people of cowardice !?
Eat up your hat, you freakish shtafirka!
And throw these thoughts out of your birdhouse!
A provincial disgrace!

[5-9]

Hmmm ... The timidity and caution of the Russian naval commanders and captains of the 18-19th century is a byword ... It's unpleasant, but true ... because of the timidity of both sides ...
About how Vsevolod 2 British battleships were beaten for hours in front of our fleet and no one came to the rescue, you do not know? Its captain and crew are heroes, and who are the rest?

[Boa kaa]

Quote: 5-9

Vsevolod 2 British battleships were beaten for hours in front of our fleet and no one came to the rescue, you don't know? Its captain and crew are heroes, and who are the rest?

Here is what is written in the "Case of Vsevolod":

... at dawn on 14 August. The old battleship Vsevolod, which was the end of the Khanykov squadron, lagged behind the main forces and was attacked by the British battleships Centaurus and Impecable. For an hour, "Vsevolod" struggled to fight off the superior enemy. Hearing the shots and realizing that the lagging Vsevolod was fighting, Khanykov immediately turned the squadron on a countercourse and rushed to help the ship in trouble. Seeing the approach of the Russian squadron, the British thought it best to get out. Having set their sails, they moved to the sea, to the main forces of the united Anglo-Swedish squadron.
Admiral Khanykov ordered the ship commanders to prepare for a general engagement. At the same time, he began to retreat to the Baltic Port, hoping to take the battle, luring the enemy under fire from his coastal batteries.
Beaten with cannonballs "Vsevolod" dragged the frigate "Pollux" in tow

However, the towing rope broke, Vsevolod anchored, they tried to tow him by boats of other ships, etc.
The British did return, well, finished off ...

“The loss of the ship“ Vsevolod ”was one of the reasons for admiral Khanykov's surrender to court, which sentenced him to demotion to sailors, to which the highest confirmation was not followed, but it was ordered to consign the entire trial of Khanykov to oblivion“ in respect of his previous service ”. As for Vsevolod, and not only Vsevolod, Khanykov was not at all to blame for this. To help Vsevolod, a ship and some frigates tried to leave the Baltic Port, but the nasty little wind did not allow them to do this.

So, here you are trying to distort the truth ...

[5-9]

In the article there is a link to Makhov, read his description of this fight ...

[Ivanchester]

The decision to sink was taken immediately after the defeat in the Battle of Alma, when the Allied fleet was not yet in the immediate vicinity of Sevastopol. So no one sat in the bay.
In addition, Kornilov, and Nakhimov, and Istomin, and many other naval officers died on the bastions of Sevastopol, defending the city. Therefore, talking about their cowardice is absolutely incorrect.

[5-9]

Yes, it's not about personal cowardice (they piled on the Turks from the heart) ... you can call it a critical look and a low assessment of the training of captains and crews and the state of the entrusted material and technical base ... the fleet has not yet reached, and they are already thinking of flooding .. . What did they do to prevent the transfer of the allies to Varna (that's okay, they thought that everything would suddenly work out and resolve) or to prevent landings already on the shores of the Empire? Yes, nothing ...

[Beregovic_1]

Are there admirals of this level in Russia now? Hence, probably, all the problems of the fleet.

Admiral Vitko. Communicated with the officers who served under his command. In real time, that is, "online" operates with the forces of the fleet, aviation and coastal troops during the operation in Syria. Organizes their interaction and comprehensive support. He understands not only the naval topic, which is understandable in principle, but also in the tasks and tactics of aviation and ground forces, which already inspires ... The officer is a surface, in contrast to the admirals from the submarine. Candidate of Military Sciences. Dissertation topic: "Strategy and tactics of modern naval combat". Thumps, they say ... But in moderation)))

[Camrad]

Vitko is a good man, an officer, but as a weak admiral, in my opinion, not a strategist at all. If anything, I ran into him both in the self-defense of the Crimea and in specialized cases.

[timokhin-aa]

We need a system.
In it, even mediocre admirals will work out as they should.

[DrEng527]

Tough, but to the point!

[5-9]

If you are quoting Makhov, then write the quintessence of his opinion (he is a historian of the sailing fleet and understands it, but not the essence) that our fleet (an expensive attribute of the state in which one must invest in full) has always been second-rate, and piled up, at times , to the Turks and the Sweets, we are because they were even worse ... With English or French or Spanish there were no options ...
And in WWI and WWII, the return from the fleet is ten times less than the resources spent on it ... And today, except for SSBNs, so ... To admit this and not suffer .... it is better to spend money on aviation, tanks and other missiles ..

[timokhin-aa]

Makhov in this case speaks to himself - it follows from his own historical examples that this is just a matter of preparation and nothing more.

To admit this and not suffer ... it is better to spend money on aircraft, tanks and other missiles ..

We have no borders on land with the main potential adversaries. But there are gigantic in length, very important and extremely vulnerable sea communications, the same NSR.

[5-9]

So where does the preparation come from if you need a lot of money for it?
According to Makhov, the reason for the weakness of the Swedish fleet is that there was enough money for ships and their maintenance, but there was no more money for personnel ... The sailors were dying in droves from hunger and disease ..
And captains with admirals should not be afraid to take the initiative.

We have no serious interests outside the radius of base aircraft. For the same Syria, there are enough corvettes with diesel engines.

[timokhin-aa]

So where does the preparation come from if you need a lot of money for it?

For example, the parade cut. Cut down on cutting threads, do not build ineffective ships at all, etc.
I set this example for everyone - a series of RTOs of projects 22800 and 21631, upon completion, will fit into 1/4 of the strike aircraft carrier.
If we add here project 20386 and a series of patrolmen 22160, then 2/5.
If what has already been spent on a sawmill called Poseidon, then 1/2.
If we kill all the ROC that are currently underway, such as the ekranoplan of unknown purpose "product 101" and similar game, then we can simply state that we had money for such a project and half of it has already been spent.
The question "where to get money" for Russia has not been raised since the late 2000s.
The question is different - why are we spending them so stupidly.

We have no serious interests outside the radius of base aircraft.

This is one of those stupid things of yours that never had anything to do with reality.

For the same Syria, there are enough corvettes with diesel engines.

There is no opposition yet. And when it is there, anyone can extinguish it. "Anyone" means anyone, literally.

[5-9]

Cool, let's not do anything, then we will have money for half, or even 2/3 of the aircraft carrier ... Why is it at all, and even more so one, and not at least 3, no one can tell ... At the same time where and how it will be based, how much will the air group cost and what, including drone, will consist of ... But cool! There is an aircraft carrier ..

[timokhin-aa]

Cool, let's do nothing,

Do not juggle, no one suggested doing anything.

Why is he at all, and even more so one, and not at least 3, no one can tell ..

This you can neither understand nor say. For yourself, please speak.

At the same time where and how to base it

Well, if you throw loot on parades, then yes, it won't be enough for the pier. I don’t argue here. This is the question for our "helmsmen".

But cool! There is an aircraft carrier ..

Please engage in self-education.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: 5-9

it's better to spend money on aircraft, tanks and other missiles ..

Let's cut off your left arm and the second sleeve won't need to be cut! Savings, however ...

[5-9]

You are exaggerating .... How much did the RI dreadnoughts cost and how much instead of them could field guns and shell factories be made? How many tanks instead of useless submarines that did not sink, count nothing and NK, which for transportation could have been built before the Second World War?
How many Iskander brigades, Armata battalions and Su-57 squadrons can be made instead of AB?
With such a tzr. it is necessary to look .... And what do we really need?

[3x3zsave]

My compliments to the authors! Kamrad Klimov! Kamrad Timokhin!

[Pamir]

It is not clear why the government constantly accepts naval parades in St. Petersburg? Even the Baltic Fleet base is in another point. Peter is a dead end of the Baltic, at the same time a trap for the fleet, WWII showed it. Probably like the views of ships against the background of the embankments of the second capital. And it's really beautiful, and Why not alternate the sequence of the GVMP in different fleets? Yes, without ferrying ships, people would look at real life in the towns of Vilyuchinsk, Vidyaevo, Polyarny, Gadzhievo, and at the composition of each fleet separately. Well, yes, members of the government do not like to deviate from the route Moscow-Peter. Yes, and it's difficult to drape the towns, it's not a mausoleum after all. But in the north and in the east it might have aired the brains, it would have brought them down from heaven to the shore. We have black holes to protect the shores, and they show us how to use jackets with trousers. Yes, journalists are impudent, like gnats in the mouths of sailors, crawl with their knobs. What kind of culture? Previously, communication with journalists was only allowed through the press of representatives of the fleet, and now they do not give direct passage to crew members. t GVMP sometimes and in St. Petersburg is not superfluous, but there are plenty of other points. I agree with the authors of the article, where are modern anti-submarine weapons, what means is provided for a brood-escort of boats, where is long-range aviation? Anti-submarine long-range aviation? What is the Beriev Aircraft Company doing today? What about the supply of fighters? What about torpedo and anti-torpedo weapons? What does Dagdizel do? How about the number of ships in the distant sea? What about minesweepers? How is the defense of the bases? What about the coastal troops? How does the civilian population serving the bases? What about the rescue services and means ? What about the vague question of the need for aircraft carriers? Why are there such gigantic repair times for ships? What about shipyards, in particular with ship repairing? what, where, why, when?
In general, the Navy is an expensive form of the Armed Forces. And it is necessary to quietly, without unnecessary fanfare, the situation should be corrected. At least the Japanese were built, they built four small helicopter carriers and they do not buzz to the whole world. With Japanese philosophy, they rub everyone in, Nobody worry, these are just small, peaceful rescue aircraft, and the fact that there are alterations under the air wing of a small aircraft for 20, for each unit of the ship, for three days of work, they are silent, or they are sincerely amazed, they are not moody, there is no thought in their minds. Philosophy is such a fucking passion, do not be afraid, everything peaceful, passive, for Japanese fishermen .. Anti-submarine planes, so do not worry, peaceful rescuers, for Japanese fishermen. Even helicopter carriers are photographed from an angle of three quarters, so that the real sizes of ships are misleading. They say one thing, look at another, think about the third , like on my mind.
So we should do this with philosophy, for Russian fishermen.

[timokhin-aa]

One continuous what, where, why, when?

Yes, that's right. And I also have a question - how will it all end? This is important.

[Pamir]

Alexander Timokhin wrote a whole article about the Japanese at one time, so I support his thoughts in that article.

[timokhin-aa]

Izumo is already being converted into an aircraft carrier, I don’t remember exactly, like from June 30th.
Here is a photo.

The price of the work there is kind of ridiculous, less than $ 100 million, if I'm not confusing anything, which means that such an alteration was mainly incorporated into the structure.

[Pamir]

Just about, Alexander, and we will drive all the SSGNs and SSBNs into the Gulf of Finland for the parade. An ideal target. And the rest will be left to self-sufficiency. In a year or two we will begin with fanfare in the Finnish Gulf of Virginia from the Ohio They will accompany them. Nobody will forbid, not our ter.waters. Who do we let the sea dust in their eyes? The wolves? What kind of nonsense? For the sake of honors, the Admiral-boats can afford such luxury against the background of the Imperial Admiralty of Peter? Well, well, 1904 -1905 years were far away from St. Petersburg. We’re dumbing into the sides, we will not have time to turn around. Here he is a handsome "Izumo" in the photo. Not enough? Nothing, we will get more. For our leadership of the country, there are not enough black stripes on the jackets of sailors. how the bastards from Ross-defenses-weapons, the Navy is put under attack, there are no words. As one admiral said to "Mother Empress Elizabeth", "less would be spent on partying" Kelsons in leaks, there is a shortage of bramssel-kugels, the mast is rotten, the rigging crushed "and" Sailors blood with rum, seki of any, does not move. "
Nothing, we will break through !!! We are pencils, we will not be!

[Antifreeze]

I am also outraged by the situation when the ships, which the Navy badly needs in another place, are deliberately detained in St. Petersburg for parades.

[K298rtm]

"Panem et circtnses".
When you can't add bread (or don't you want to?), You can add a show (not just cartoons ...).
1. Thanks to the authors for the article.
2. Parades are of course necessary and important. But, as Paracelsus said: "Everything is poison and everything is medicine - only the measure is important." In my opinion (I took part in parades on Red Square three times and many times in the distant 20th century looked from the North side at the naval parades of the KChF of the USSR Navy in Sevastopol) it is quite possible to hold more speedy parades in order to spend less resources on ostentatious events, and more on the power supply unit (in fairness, it should be noted that in preparation for the parade, some elements of the power supply unit are being improved).
3. The authors touched upon (as in previous articles) a more general issue - the rational (efficient) use of the country's resources in the construction (modernization) of the Russian Navy. One gets the impression that the criteria and performance indicators do not coincide between the Navy and the USC (my value judgment).

[nikant]

in the fleet there are not just holes that cannot be closed by any rush: in the fleet there are black and black holes ... the parade is a miserable show for the tsar, who plays his role with pleasure ... are there real naval commanders in all of Russia who are not for the regular and undercover squabble, but for the real development of the fleet and maintaining it at least in some kind of combat readiness? ha ha ha! There is a threatening merger of the military-industrial complex and the fleet: money rules the show, because you can't keep up with the bankers, oligarchs and those in power ... what honor, conscience, patriotism ... everything has long been crammed and shoved into Western banks, yachts, children, grandchildren , real estate ... and the naive and blind scream that we have no equal ... only in what?

[corjik]

Ufff. Tired of reading. At least an abstract. And what in fact? Today, the Japanese fleet is equal in number of ships to the entire Russian, but more and more modern

[PVM]

All this is nonsense and self-indulgence, like everything in a commercial organization called "RF".
Enta "RF" by status does not even fit the classification of "colony".
The metropolis is responsible for the colony.
Neither legal entities nor individuals are responsible for "RF".
It is mercilessly exploited and robbed by everyone who got into this chaos.
To add pomp and cover the chaos of the world "behind the scenes" in "RF" there are military parades.
And they remained only in odious countries.
So what is it about?

[p164]

An interesting approach from the author. I liked the comparison of the Baltic and Black Sea fleets under Nikolai the First. One was downright junk and offered no resistance to the enemy. The other is the miracle of combat capability. And he was suddenly taken and drowned for complete uselessness. But Sevastopol was defended simply by outstanding admirals. So what? Are they quiet fools? Let's remember the "curse of Nakhimov". By the way. Is he also "dull-witted"? But he was the creator of the last victory in the entire further history of our fleet in a major naval battle. Our fleet has never defeated anyone again !!!!! There were victories in individual clashes, the submariners sometimes differed, the boatmen demonstrated miracles. But this is not a sure victory of our fleet over the enemy's fleet.
Now everyone loves to procrastinate on the phrase of Alexander III that Russia has two allies. Army and Navy. Before the emperor had time to die, in the shortest possible time the Japanese easily dealt with the fleet. In the First World War, there were still some attempts in the Baltic. But it's funny and sad. The entire Black Sea fleet was terrorized by two German cruisers. And then and then one heroism during the Ice Crossings, the evacuation of troops from the same Sevastopol, the defense of Leningrad with guns removed from the ships ... In short, one continuous retreat.
What happened in the "Golden Age of Soviet shipbuilding"? Now no one can objectively say. But I know that Soviet sailors only recognized Americans. The rest were simply not considered a worthy opponent. And I do not care that they had a numerical and in many respects technical superiority, ours could show everyone "Kuz'kina Mother". Sufficient for two empires with different forms of ownership of the means of production, and therefore irreconcilable enemies, to refrain from a direct fight.
Now. And now there are three factors. The scarcity of the budget, the problem with engines for large ships, the problem with sanctions, and as a consequence, the lack of modern electronics. Let's translate loud terms into Russian. "Corvette" and "Frigate". At best, this is a small rocket ship or a large boat for the near sea zone. Accordingly, a patrol boat for escorting or not a large anti-submarine ship. However, an anti-submarine ship at sea is suitable only as part of a large flock of such. In the event of a full-scale war without the use of nuclear weapons, this is generally at the level of what the mosquito fleet did in World War II. But the number of ships is small. Well, a handful of diesels. If in WWII the Germans locked them with a regular net and mines, then in our time ... Old large anti-submarine ships are not counted. One (one serviceable) Eagle and a dozen nuclear submarines. This is not a weapon of victory. This is the Doomsday weapon.
About the fact that our main enemy is on a distant "island" and swim to it with tanks, infantry, etc. we have nothing, it is generally sad. Flying with floating airfields with hundreds of aircraft? Yeah. We will adjust five aircraft carrier groups without any problems.
But about seventy Arlie Berks and all sorts of Tikanderogs ... By the way. Even if our entire fleet immediately starts to shoot with Calibers, the number of missiles launched will not be enough for all of them. And the second salvo will be gone.
And the conclusion. The conclusion is simple. Russia has the means to defend its shores from inadequate neighbors and the means to make NATO aggression meaningless. For the damage will be irreparable for them. In conditions of poverty, sanctions, a complete absence of allies in the whole world and problems with modern technologies, the situation with military security is not so bad. Cheap, but it will pull for necessary defense.
Well, the parades. And what about without: "Ole Ole Ole! Russia! Forward!"
There is nothing special to offer people, but how can they do without patriotism. Better to shout hurray and look for enemies across the ocean. And for the sake of objectivity. Warships at sea look beautiful. Especially the old Soviet architecture.
Nicholas the First also really liked the wooden gilded frigates under the snow-white sails.

[misti1973]

Well, what are you talking about, if everywhere mentioned (as being in service) anti-ship missiles Zircon do not exist in nature for reasons of contradiction with the laws of physics? This is the same "song" as the Khibiny who "turned off" the Aegis system :) Lies and incompetence at every step!