What is wrong with the “newest” PMK of the 12700 project?

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Despite the bravura reassurances of a number of officials about the allegedly successful accomplishment of the tasks by the old Navy minesweepers, their absolute obsolescence and limited combat capabilities are clear to all objective observers and specialists.

Questions on the status of minesweepers for the Navy’s combat personnel and the causes of the PMO crisis are discussed in "What is wrong with our minesweepers?"



The command of the Navy "hoped" to get out of the "PMO crisis" by building a series of new anti-mine ships (PMK) of the 12700 project. Alas, there was no reason for it (in the existing look of the 12700 project).



The current state of the mine (mine) war


Speaking of new PMK, models and "technologies" of software, it is necessary to identify the current conditions for solving problems of software.

“Thin processing” of physical fields of targets and the appearance of “mine defenders”


The key problem of modern mine action is the appearance in the 90 of the last century of highly sensitive multi-channel proximity fuses (HB) with “thin” digital signal processing of the target. The ability to tune such HBs in the “mine defender” mode (to act on the physical fields (FP) of unmanned underwater vehicles (NPA), primarily acoustic, discrete components (DC) noise), called into question the whole “classical” concept of mine action ( with hydroacoustic stations (GAS) of mine detection and forward-looking NPA (TNPA) minesweeper-mine-searching mine scavengers (minesweepers) for additional exploration and mine destruction).

Taking into account the sharply increased "intelligence" HB mines (and, accordingly, a high probability of undermining specialized pumping facilities), the cost of modern anti-mine weapons, and the possibility of their effective use in the case of a massive mine setting, became acute.

It is necessary to emphasize that this technical revolution of non-contact mines abroad passed long ago, in 90-x and the beginning of 2000-s (and even in the third world countries in 2000-ies, mines with fine-tuned fuses appeared in service).

Visual confirmation of this is information about the Pakistani bottom mine, which was put into service at the very beginning of the 2000-s.


The bottom mine of the Pakistan Navy, the development of the beginning of 2000's.


We in this matter have catastrophically lagged behind and are still lagging behind.

Example: “new” (in quotes) non-contact mines of the APM fuses, in which the old analog signal processing is preserved (the end times of 50-x - the beginning of 60-x).

What is wrong with the “newest” PMK of the 12700 project?

Chart of operation of channels APM (presentation KMPO "Gidropribor")


The reasons for this are set out in the article (2008 g.) Proshkin (former director general of the Central Research Institute Gidropribor, a major Russian mine expert) and B.G. Kalminsky:
Effective use of broadband signals, methods and algorithms for digital processing has become possible only in the last decade, when real-time digital processing tools optimized by the criterion of performance / power consumption appeared on the world market ... at the same time, the domestic electronics industry does not pay enough attention to this issue ... so, one of the most modern domestic signal processors 1892ВМ3Т ("Multikor"), although it has a performance comparison my with the best foreign models, has a significantly higher power consumption ... This leads to a limited use of domestic components of digital processing in the onboard equipment MPO. ... if the onboard equipment, designed on the basis of the ADSP-BF533 processor, ensures ... operability during the 1 of the year, then the equipment based on the 1892ВМ3Т processor will not work even for one month.


Of course, new things are starting to come in, but this process is not easy and long (especially if it is actively helped by “experts” and “specialists” of the Navy, who think that we have “everything is fine”).

Stealth mines


The appearance in the middle of the 80-s of the last century in the armament of the naval forces of foreign countries hardly noticeable mines sharply increased the requirements for mine detection hydroacoustic stations and the positioning accuracy of detected targets (min-like objects).

It should be noted that in the Navy of foreign countries (as opposed to the Russian Navy), subtle mines have long become a typical goal in the development of calculations of the software.


Models of inconspicuous bottom mines (standard NATO Navy facilities)


The problem of unobtrusive bottom mines is especially acute on weak (with weak bearing capacity) and soils “clogged” by false targets.


An example of the sonar picture of the "clogged" bottom


The ability of the enemy to use unobtrusive mines places extremely stringent requirements not only on mine detection, but also on the accuracy of determining the coordinates of each target (with an error of no more than 1 m).

Very high demands are placed on sonar mine detection stations.

Moreover, the Only the PMK, equipped with a powerful specialized mine detection service, high-precision means of navigation and mine action management and a complex of destruction facilities (underwater vehicles and means of non-contact trawling), is able to provide an effective fight against the threat of mines.

The AUV against its background plays mainly a supporting role, although in a number of conditions, for example, in the presence of ice, they can take the first place.

Work in conditions of serious mine risk requires specialized ships that have not only reduced physical fields and a modern mine complex, but also specially trained crews. A “universal ship” can be built, but it is good to prepare a “universal crew” for all tasks — no.

The cost of mine action and quantitative parameters of the mine threat


Obviously, one of the key requirements for the Navy's mine action forces is the ability to solve problems in conditions of massive use of mines by the enemy. This is true not only for world wars, but also for local ones. For example, when mining ("mine blockade") aviation US ports of Vietnam US aviation delivered more than 12 thousand mines!


Mines in the bomber bomb bay


This factor requires a significant limitation of the cost of destroying a single mine to provide the necessary amount of anti-mine weapons in the Navy. This factor is extremely important, but not only many lobbyists of domestic and foreign enterprises, but also the Navy itself often “forget” about it.

Project 12700


History The PMK of the 12700 project is very similar to the “zigzags” with the history of the BDK “Ivan Gren”, and taking into account all these twists and turns (the project replaced the 8 chief designers!), The Almaz Central Design Bureau and the builder of the Srednenevsky plant turned out, in general, not bad.

The key problems of the 12700 project are not the problems of design and construction (although there is something to work on here), but a consequence of the long-obsolete concept and models of the use of the PMC from the Russian Navy.

Practically all previous PMK Navy had either steel low-magnetic hulls or wooden ones. Mass composite hulls for the PMK in the USSR "did not go." However, for the promising PMK of the Navy, their use was virtually uncontested: low-magnetic steel did not meet the requirements for the fields, and the era of the tree was gone.

As the main complex, it was planned to install an integrated system from the GAS mine detection, which includes a towed towed antenna (towed body, BT) and an antenna on a self-propelled underwater vehicle (SPA, this abbreviation is adopted in the national documentation on the complex). The same SPA was supposed to solve the problem of classifying and destroying mines.


SPA ISPUM (photo: forums.balancer.ru)



Towed body (BT) ISPUM. (photo: forums.balancer.ru)


The point of using a GAS antenna for mine detection at the SPA is to provide a guaranteed search in difficult hydrological conditions.


The idea of ​​a complex with the antenna GAS MI on STA was obviously borrowed from Western SPA with GAS Double Eagle





Double Eagle SPA with GAS MI


But in the West it was implemented differently: SPA from the expensive GAS of mine-detection was exactly the means of search, and the hammers for the destruction of mines were much simpler PAP-104 devices (massively supplemented today by small technical regulations of the software).

For example, there were two TNP- “destroyer” PAP-450 and one TNP- “seeker” Double Eagle on the 2009-ton minersweepers of the type “Tarpapit” that visited the IMMS-104.


Double Eagle SPA with GAS MI and two “hammers” - PAP-104 TNPA at the THOUGHT French Navy, MVMS-2009,



SPA Double Eagle Mk-III and Small Seafood PMF


Regarding the general structure and model of using the ISPUM complex, you can cite the report for 2012 of one of its co-contractors: OJSC “Arzamas Instrument-Making Plant”:
The object detected by the HAS is subject to identification (identification) with the subsequent destruction of the target. The performance of this operation is assigned to self-propelled underwater vehicles (SPA), controlled by cable.
In the overwhelming majority of currently existing vehicles, the scheme of the propulsion and steering complex consists of thrusters, a hydraulic pump station feeding the thrusters' hydraulic motors, and thrusters control equipment.
The task of ensuring the fulfillment of the requirements for the speed of movement of the SPA is reduced to an increase in the efficiency of the energy-power installation of the apparatus through the use of electric motors in propeller-driven units.
The SPA searches for a target while moving together with the carrier, for which it is necessary to take the SPA to the course angle and distance from 100 to 150 m from the ship’s nose, transfer control from the portable control panel to the main control and deepen the SPA to a predetermined depth system.
After that, one should bring the SPA with the maximum speed to the initial point - the starting point of the search for the hydroacoustic module (GAM) and search and direct the SPA to the underwater object according to the GAM data.
Further operation mode of the SPA is associated with the solution of a tactical task on the ship: search for the next underwater object or completion of work.


The increase in the performance characteristics of the SPA ISPUM from “Mayevka” was planned to be achieved due to the rejection of the propulsion drive from the hydraulic drive with the transition to electric motors. The technical solution is correct, but the price turned out to be much higher than Mayevka.

As a result, despite the very large displacement (for 1000 tons), we received only one extremely expensive searcher-destroyer (actually a piece of a tonne sonar complex), due to our physical fields, at the very first “Mine defender”.

The published results of measurements of the physics field of underwater vehicles, even with low drive power, show the full possibility of implementing the “mine defender” mode even in simple modern non-contact min fuses.


The results of measurements of the acoustic field of the AUV in real conditions


Moreover, the possibility of an explosion at the “mine defenders” was indicated by the competent domestic experts as the main drawback of the previous complex “Mayevka”!

There is nothing surprising here: this is a common serious shortcoming of all “severe” SPA software. Strictly speaking, this caused the appearance of “small” TNLA - “one-timers”.


Small TNPA-exterminator as a combat load on a heavy Double Eagle TNPA, to prevent it from undermining on "defender mines"


If you don’t go into details, then for the modernization of “Mayevka” a number of solutions were worked out to eliminate this drawback, however, SPA ISPUM has the same drawback! Certainly, the problem was reported by experts to the management of the SNNP "Region", but it, being well aware of it, took the unprincipled position of concealing this shortcoming.

As a result, in its present form ISPUM and PMK of the 12700 project - “a ship before the first mine” with a modern non-contact fuse.

"French complex of software" on the project 12700


For the first time, the possibility of installing French PMO systems on domestic PMK was announced in an interview with A. Zakharov on the results of EuroNaval 2012.


Variant of the 12700 project with fully French weapons


The author is not a tough proponent of the “only domestic” principle. There is a sense in the purchase of certain types of weapons and military equipment abroad. However, this should be what we do not have, and really worthy samples. And such purchases should in no way become a “stranglehold” for domestic developments.

In the situation with the "French systems" it turned out the opposite. Instead of purchasing effective western mine action systems, products of the ENA company were purchased that had extremely low combat effectiveness at high cost. The choice for ECA cooperation was made without serious justification and analysis of the effectiveness of their proposals. It is obvious that the determining factors were completely different factors.

A number of statements in the Russian media:
...mine "drones"domestic development of the "Diamond" complex (replacement for the French unmanned system) ...

... light unmanned boats made of carbon fiber will now search for and destroy mines - carriers of special underwater robots...

... thanks to the plastic case and the low noise engine, these devices are "uninteresting" to landmines ...

... the boats themselves, using on-board hydro-acoustic station, magnetometers and other on-board equipment, easily detect mines ...

... as told to Izvestia at the Main Command of the Navy, the tests of Diamant have already been completed, the appearance in the Navy’s arsenal of such systems means the output of domestic mine-sweeping forces to a fundamentally new level ...


The statements given by the author are not only completely incompetent and have no basis, they are also obviously “biased”.

Real situation:

1. The allegedly “domestic” Diamand complex is the French DIAMAND complex, which is installed in addition (instead of) to ISPUM.

2. Tests of the complex showed its extremely low efficiency.

3. The unmanned boat (BEC) Inspector, whose modification Mk2 appeared in 2008, the company ENA, despite an active advertising campaign, could not sell to anyone except the Russian Navy. The “features” of the contract were such that in the process of “executing” it and delivering boats to the Russian Federation, they “grew significantly” (in mass and length) and simply did not “fit” into the 12700 design station first-aid station.

4. BEC Inspector is not just extremely low TTH. Big problems with seaworthiness (for at least a partial solution of which the developer placed ballast tanks in the forepic) of the Inspector led to a number of officials having serious doubts about the possibility of using onboard BEC to solve special problems!

5. The search speed of the BEC Inspector is extremely low (several times less than that of any other BEC CMP), and the high-frequency HBO used for advertising purposes (for “beautiful pictures”) do not provide reliable detection of mines, for example, on algae-grown soil.

6. The K-Ster disposable disposals that were originally planned for delivery (as opposed to, for example, the German Sea Fox) are extremely expensive, very difficult to operate, and do not provide use at sub-zero temperatures (!). Instead, they were put "civilian" inspection TNPA SeaScan, which are generally unable to solve combat missions.




SeaScan Small TNPA at the Alexander Obukhov MSSHCH project 12700 (photo: forums.balancer.ru)


The reasons for all this lies not only in the “specific situation” around this contract, but also in the fact that its executor from the Russian side was involved in the work of the former employees of the Central Research Institute of Shipwreck, who are completely incompetent in the subject and have long become an object of harsh jokes among specialists.

The structure and ideology of building the DIAMAND complex with BEC Inspektor2 was focused on an “advertising demonstration” rather than on the actual solution of the MIP tasks, and has a number of fundamental errors that limit the capabilities of the Diamand complex to extremely simple conditions.


BEC Inspektor2 has a strong slamming even on a small wave


Triton’s DIAMAND’s automatic target classification software provides a satisfactory opportunity to work only on simple mines recently laid on the sand. Work in any difficult conditions for Triton and DIAMAND is not guaranteed.


Work Triton



SeaScan TNPA next to the mine layout (with additional corner reflectors installed by ECA)


Domestic BEC for PMK project 12700


To replace the BEC Inspector developed domestic BEC.

An unconditional and huge plus of this development is the implementation of the domestic noise-resistant high-speed data exchange channel, which is extremely important for work on the subject of the Navy’s robotic systems.

However, our BEC has limited performance characteristics, due to the initial drawbacks of the BL-680 submarine (on the basis of which it was made), which is in fact simply unsuitable for an efficient solution of the PMO task.


Domestic BEC for the 12700 project (photo: forums.balancer.ru)


A seaworthy logboat onboard boat (and BEC) of reduced weight is required (with a payload of at least BL-680) and a “free stern”, which has a reliable marine engine designed for professional work at sea.

In addition, there are questions about the very concept of the BEC finder.

Or a single “expensive high-speed” BEC (with an expensive search complex) or a “group (“ comb ”) of low-speed boats”? Everything went according to the first version, but the submarine of such a boat on a mine is certainly not guaranteed!

Accordingly, it is necessary to provide (“cover”) the BEC-seeker with the work of means of non-contact trawling and masking of the physical fields of the BEC. Need a BEC- “non-contact trawl” (BEC-NT)! It is also essential to ensure the use of SPA ISPUM (the destruction of "mine defenders" - with a reduced protivotralnym resistance).

Those. The highest priority for us is BEC-NT (including as on-board, for the 12700 project).

What is characteristic is that (the need to suppress HB mines with special interferences, “Mine jamming”) is also known and understood by the French specialists of the ENA company (while deliberately hiding it from us):


“Mine jamming” in the ECA conference materials


However, their attitude to the Russian Navy is like an “aboriginal” who can easily sell high-priced beads. The fact that at the same time (with the "French systems"), the effectiveness of solving the tasks of the PMO of the Russian Navy will be extremely low, - "the problems of the Russian Navy itself".

New proximity trawls


A partial solution to the problem of “fine” digital processing in non-contact equipment of mines and the appearance of “mine defenders” in the West was the “renaissance” of non-contact trawls, in a new look - in self-propelled version (BEC-NT) or towed by helicopters.

At the same time, the purpose of their use was not “just trawling” (which is absolutely ineffective against mines with “smart” fuses), but jointly integrated application in a single model with the TNPA PMO.


Comprehensive model of the use of modern anti-mine weapons - underwater vehicles and non-contact trawls (Swedish Navy)


In this “symbiosis”, the role of non-contact trawls was to ensure the mines with low anti-thrust resistance and “mine defenders” and (or) the direct cover of the TNPA PMO with physical fields of the non-contact trawl (jamming mode).

It should be noted that BEC-NT is not some kind of “exclusive”. As an example, the German system of contactless trawling "Troika" (early 80-s).




The work of the system "Troika" (Naval Forces of Germany)


The USSR Navy at the end of 80 received a similar system "Shuttle".

BEC-NT "Shuttle" (USSR Navy)


But Today, in the Russian Navy, all this is forgotten, the domestic concept of towing proximity trawls across a minefield by a minesweeper (including the newest PMK of the 12700 project) today means deliberately sending it for slaughter.

The first version of the Swedish SAM system with BEC-NT was also implemented in 80-x.




BEK-NT SAM3 (modern look of the non-contact trawling system of the Swedish Navy)


Taking into account the change in the model of use of non-contact trawls, the possibility of a significant reduction in their weight and size parameters and requirements for the power supply to the carrier, including the creation of BEC-NT, suitable for airborne-based ships.




US Navy BEC-NT


Shock-trials explosion


This is where the extremely acute question of the explosion resistance of the PMK equipment arises. Conducting a special test (shock-trials explosion) “undermining” under the conditions of a close powerful submarine explosion is a system and norm for the western PMK of many warships of the main classes.




Shock-trials explosion tests of western PMK


To ensure these requirements, not only the special execution of systems and mechanisms is applied, but also their effective depreciation. However, a comparison of them with our PMK of the 12700 project shows that we have “forgotten” about this (“they will not blow up anyway!”).


Comparison of design and amortization of a crane-manipulator LEADING the Navy of the Federal Republic of Germany and the newest PMK Navy project 12700


Obviously, this is one of the critical issues of the 12700 project, for which emergency modernization is necessary (with mandatory post-explosive testing, similarly to the western PMH).

Questions on innovative building


Here it is impossible not to ignore a number of flaws in the 12700 project (advertised as “unparalleled”). Opinion about the project 12700 major specialist Nazarov A.G., director of CB "Albatross Marine Design".



The photo shows a set of beams with a T-section (!), While the beams of the beams are assembled in full thickness and cut (!). All this resembles a model of a steel hull made of fiberglass, but not a fiberglass hull ... Such design options and set beams were used at the dawn of plastic shipbuilding, when few people knew how to work with this material; but 40 hasn't been doing this for years ...
Why the achievements of world composite shipbuilding have not been applied to the Russian project? ... it is obvious that in the case of Alexandrite it is either about the unjustified conservatism of the customer, and / or about the unqualified design of structures made of composites implicated in obsolete approaches and technologies of construction. The question arises - where are the leading Central Research Institute and Central Design Bureau looking? In any case, the export prospects of such low-tech vessels are extremely uncertain ...
So, it is premature to present this event as a technological record and a breakthrough. This is only the first and very timid step, but so far, unfortunately, this is a step away from the world technologies of composite shipbuilding.


In the comments to the article, there was a discussion ... However, the publication of the Krylovsky State Research Center report on composite shipbuilding showed that these shortcomings by Russian experts are understood (they were probably laid at the very beginning of the 12700 design project many years ago) and should be eliminated.



Divers miners


Effective mine action in the western PMK is a group of divers-miners. To ensure their use, most Western PMKs have pressure chambers on board.


Stationary pressure chamber on the Italian naval tank


Alas, our 12700 project, despite the large displacement, does not have it and obviously will not have it.

The reason is the absolutely inadequate requirements of the Navy for their deployment. In fact, the PMK in this case will have to turn into a "special diving vessel."

The situation is absolutely abnormal, in the event of real combat missions, divers-miners will still have to apply, but ... already without a pressure chamber (which simply did not fit in the PMK because of the huge "burden" of bureaucratic demands on it). Alas, in an emergency situation, Russian divers can count the maximum on a small and unsuccessful “emergency” pressure chamber “Kubyshka” ...

Taking into account the use of minera divers (and already today, and in the future, BEC), ensuring the use of the AUV, a large number of boats and boats are located in the western PMK. Obviously, against this background, only one boat aboard the 12700 project PMS is “almost nothing”.




Group accommodation of boats and boats on foreign PMK



Elaboration of group accommodation of boats at the PMK of the 12700 project


Multipurpose tasks


Speaking about the minesweepers of the Navy of the USSR and the Russian Federation, it is necessary to note the essential point - the possibility of solving the naval minesweepers of the project of the Navy of the USSR (for example, the 266M project) of multi-purpose tasks:

• Anti-aircraft (Anti-Aircraft Defense) and Anti-Bunk Defense (AMP) due to the presence of powerful weapons: 4 twin automatic guns of caliber 30 m, 25 mm (30-mm gun mounts AK-230 (630) had the MP-104 radar fire control system) and including those used with sea tumbovy installations);

• solving the tasks of anti-submarine defense (PLO) and anti-subdivision defense (EITI) due to the good (for its time) MAS mine detection and the presence of two RBU-1200 rocket launchers with RSB-12 rocket bomb bombs, with a powerful warhead and a range of use commensurate with a range of GAS mine finding on submarines.


RBU-1200 on the MSCH project 266M


At the same time, RBUs ​​were not a “spare pistol” for minesweepers, but were a real and effective tool for the water area security forces (OVR), ensuring effective detection (GAS of mine detection) and destruction (RBU) even of submarines lying on the ground, as well as ultra-small submarines (SMPL), i.e. targets, the detection and destruction of which for conventional means ("big" gas and torpedoes) is difficult.

To provide access to the RBU attack and to provide anti-torpedo protection, the minesweepers had ammunition of hydroacoustic countermeasures (SGPD) such as MG-34 and GIP-1.


SGPD MG-34 and GIP-1 of MTSchch ammunition of the project 266М


The capabilities of the 266М PLO and MPSV of the 266M project were highly valued not only by the Soviet Navy, but also by the navy of a number of foreign countries that had them as part of their navy (including the navy of India, where the XNUMXМ project is still in service).

It is obvious that these multipurpose tasks are still relevant today, especially when using the SEM in the far and ocean zone. The upgraded PMK of the 12700 + project requires:

• General Detection Radar and Radar Structures (radar fire control system);
• due to significant mass size and physical fields, placement of medium-caliber artillery is impossible; weapons (defeat of air, sea, land targets, submarines and saboteurs);

• EW funds.


Conclusions


The PMK of the 12700 project is, of course, critically necessary for the Russian Navy, but today they have a number of critical flaws (including for application for the main purpose). An urgent modernization of the project (and its complexes) with the revision of already built ships is necessary.

After the implementation of measures to address design flaws and increase the combat capabilities of the ship:
• BEC locations for proximity traverse carriers and carriers;
• an increase in the number of TNPA (and ensure their cover by fields of non-contact trawls);
• ensuring the solution of multi-purpose tasks (air defense, EITI, PKO, PLO);
• accommodation of a regular group of divers-miners with a pressure chamber;
• ensure high explosion resistance;
and a number of other PMK of the 12700 project may be among the best ships of their class.

At the same time, the PMK of the 12700 project, even in a modernized form, cannot solve the whole range of tasks of the naval fleet and have serious limitations on the possibility of serial production (due to problems with the release of МХNUMXД diesel engines).

It is necessary to build, in addition to them, a series of small small MVK raids and the creation of a new project - a basic PMK of reduced displacement, suitable for mass serial construction.
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84 comments
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  1. +18
    April 29 2019 06: 51
    You feel like it, but I felt sad when I read this article. I want to believe that the right people will change their minds and correct mistakes. Its and predecessors.
    1. +4
      April 29 2019 07: 52
      The problem can be critical if the author is right.
      Interestingly, whom does the author want to inform? Can the responsible and really instruct someone to view the VO?
      1. -9
        April 29 2019 16: 50
        The author stupidly accumulated data from different sites, puffed out his cheeks and gave out his pearls. In order to do such reviews, not to mention the conclusions, one must either be the designer of such systems, or a multi-year user. But not like a sofa specialist.
        1. +6
          April 30 2019 06: 43
          Quote: Oden280
          In order to do such reviews, not to mention conclusions,

          But MAKE THE RIGHT REVIEW ???
          We will draw conclusions ourselves and put up well-deserved marks.
          Go for it.
          1. -3
            April 30 2019 17: 21
            I also make analytical notes in my specialty, but they are not as it should be for everyone.
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. +1
              3 May 2019 09: 48
              Quote: Oden280
              I also make analytical notes in my specialty, but they are not as it should be for everyone.

              That's when I read such texts - I immediately begin to laugh ...
              about secret authors, secret analytical notes ..

              About the movement of cars in the junction stations?
              Well yes. analysis and not for everyone ...
              But how suggestible "analytical notes are not for everyone" ....

              Real secret hunters have the opportunity to track the entire route of your writings and find out your dynamic IP. And from him to find your actual address - and start hunting for you.
              And all real carriers of secrets - as if they understand this.

              so I see a real couch again and again, but mimicking the "evil and terrible servant wolf" with tolerances ...
        2. +2
          April 30 2019 08: 04
          proofs, evidence that accumulated, provide, be so kind. I, too, can go into a random article on VO and say the same thing - will my statement become true? I doubt it. In short, links to sites will be very out of place on your part.
        3. 0
          April 30 2019 12: 10
          The author definitely understands this more than the vast majority of those present here.
          1. +1
            April 30 2019 17: 46
            Quote: Tamer
            The author definitely understands this more than the vast majority of those present here.

            There is no specialist ALL and EVERYTHING! To this we have been given common sense, there is an interesting question, topic, read, figure it out as it should.
            The author raised the topic, and then the people will figure it out! It’s good for the youth, but for the old it should be!
            1. +1
              8 May 2019 11: 02
              I read the author at different sites at different times. And my opinion that he (the author) understands this "more", I left in order to invite readers to become a little deeper interested in the author, the author's theme, a specific topic, opinions about "sofa expertise", "pearls"
              1. 0
                8 May 2019 11: 21
                Quote: Tamer
                I left in order to offer readers a little deeper interest

                Everything is correct. I suggest this, not to criticize, but to figure it out. Common sense and the opportunity to read MISCELLANEOUS, to all of us to help.
          2. The comment was deleted.
        4. 0
          3 May 2019 09: 42
          Quote: Oden280
          The author stupidly accumulated data from different sites, puffed out his cheeks and gave out his pearls. In order to do such reviews, not to mention the conclusions, one must either be the designer of such systems, or a multi-year user. But not like a sofa specialist.


          You are so vividly showing your transcendent aplomb, not knowing who the author and what he was doing ...
          But immediately, immediately write it down in the sofa specialists ..
        5. 0
          7 May 2019 11: 05
          You shouldn’t be so. The author is not the first to write an article on VO. And personally, I had no reason to doubt his competence. On the contrary, he reveals all the problem areas. And thank him so much for that.
        6. 0
          31 July 2022 13: 41
          M.Klimov for a long time was a laboratory assistant at a scientific research institute where he actively compiled vacation schedules and fantasized intensely, but since. due to the limited size of the brain, fantasies did not extend far, he learned to completely rewrite (with pictures) articles from foreign magazines and other people's books posing as a super duper specialist in various issues and fields. M. Klimov is a vivid example of militant dullness and lack of education multiplied by endless conceit. Let's not laugh at the wretched M. Klimov, let's just smile a little and move on to reading articles by really smart authors.
    2. +5
      April 29 2019 09: 29
      The article leads to serious reflection. The author of course represents one of the developer companies, but nevertheless, the analysis is quite versatile.
    3. 0
      April 29 2019 14: 10
      "The right people" are who? Who, apart from the jigsaw, see nothing else and cannot see? So they have nothing to think about, for this purpose they need a tool that they do not have.
      And if the "necessary people" are those who appoint "unnecessary" to posts ... That is also unlikely, since moaning not only about this, but also about a host of other questions is heard if not like the lament of Nekrasov (the great Russian poet) , it is comparable in time. Here are just no effect ...
      1. 0
        April 29 2019 14: 35
        Leader ... One means for the PMK, - without crew ships and vessels with all autonomous and other means .. Send the crew to the game with death today is no longer permissible! How to develop and how, it’s already a second-order task, and it’s not slow to solve, so that we don’t have heroic deaths, because we have a century during the period of dead heroes through the fault of command and strategy ...
        1. 0
          April 29 2019 14: 56
          Sorry, where are the "right people" in this match?
    4. 0
      25 July 2019 12: 51
      the problem is that almost all the niches of the fleet are just as sad
      even the construction of pl and icebreakers, which are in relatively good conditions,
      also deeply problematic.
  2. +2
    April 29 2019 06: 59
    Maxim, the information is very interesting. I hope the "top" will take note of your criticisms and heed your conclusions. And, of course, I would like to bring to justice all "engaged" ones. I am only worried that all this will become the property of foreign specialists. Or is there already in the know?
    1. -2
      April 30 2019 05: 05
      Information is not interesting - either long outdated or irrelevant. The article is cobbled together from various open and old sources, and the opinion of a specialist from Thailand is generally unimportant - he rivets pleasure boats.
  3. +10
    April 29 2019 07: 03
    Dear author! As far as I remember, this problem was voiced back in the last century, the year 98-99. 266 projects, as I understand it, the modernization that was considered and failed? In terms of mine-torpedo armament and the fight against it, problems have been since the time of the RIF, and this despite the fact that it is very sad that the RIF was one of the first to use both mines and torpedoes very effectively. That is, perfectly representing all the danger it ended up in the last places ... The paradox of history is great or mighty Russian maybe? (Perhaps in Slavic mythology, the god of luck and deception is akin to Locke in Scandinavian mythology) Or maybe the usual idiocy of our Admirals who once in their entire history with the Russian and Sovetsky fleets rush to the extremes inventing another wunderwafel or as the Great Mighty said in imperial Russia (ship device and so on ) ??? There are no answers and there will not be, for the lack of a clear idea of ​​why the fleet is needed has been absent since the time of Alexander III, something like this unfortunately :(
    1. +3
      April 29 2019 07: 49
      Quote: Nehist
      A paradox of history or the great and mighty Russian Avos?

      Or maybe elementary GREED. Because it’s simply not possible to explain this by competence.
    2. -2
      April 30 2019 05: 07
      Do not blow your cheeks on admirals - they started as lieutenants, with the formation of the naval, God forbid, everything is in order. well, the everlasting antagonist of right-wingers and midshipmen against successful people is understandable.
      1. +2
        April 30 2019 06: 48
        Quote: LeonidL
        Do not blow your cheeks on admirals

        It is not the position and title that should adorn a person. Deeds and achievements ..... as an interesting military expert says in the "hour of the militarist" - Provide a list of your ACHIEVEMENTS! -
        1. 0
          1 May 2019 02: 03
          Alas, my dear, no comments on this subject.
          1. +1
            1 May 2019 02: 16
            Non problems.
            Specifically on the topic, alas, in a different direction, up my interests and skills were directed.
            Therefore, general considerations about how it is not necessary, because the same is negative almost everywhere. And the generals and above, had to meet different, up to .....
            People, commanders, they are different, like all of us.
        2. +1
          25 July 2019 13: 06
          Quote: rocket757
          Provide a list of your ACHIEVEMENTS! -

          forbes list number come down? laughing
          1. 0
            25 July 2019 13: 24
            Quote: yehat
            forbes list number come down?

            And this is what! We have sho generals there - admirals are hesitating! Of ours?
            1. 0
              25 July 2019 13: 28
              they are on the way))
              1. 0
                25 July 2019 13: 30
                but who knows where they will get it and how .... but as soon as, so right away.
  4. +3
    April 29 2019 08: 35
    deeply professional respectful analysis! Urgently take measures to provide the Russian Navy with mine ships and complexes, taking into account the identified shortcomings! without mine action, the fleet is simply meaningless! stop laying warships until the problem is resolved. and especially meaningless superfregatolincor and link destroyers destroyed by one mine. Admirals and admiral's sons = young caprers in remand and trial
    1. +6
      April 29 2019 12: 47
      But before the war, the same situation was. They abandoned the construction of the ocean fleet with a catastrophic lack of minesweepers, especially squadrons, which cannot be replaced by mobilized trawlers. However, not all of them were even staffed with trawls. There were no worked out devices for trawling the latest bottom magnetic mines, although the Germans could not have known about their use by the Germans against England.
      It seems that before the eyes of the country's leadership there was a ghost of an invasion of the Entente's linear forces, against which they were going to fight with mines and submarines, completely preventing anyone from waging such a war against us.
      1. +5
        April 29 2019 17: 35
        Quote: Narak-zempo
        They abandoned the construction of the ocean fleet with a catastrophic lack of minesweepers, especially squadrons, which cannot be replaced by mobilized trawlers.

        So, by the time the first "big pots" of the "Big Fleet" were ready, the minesweepers would already have been - they were built faster. And there were more than 200 planned.
        The real shortage of HSCs in the BF was due to their use for solving unusual tasks, such as supplying distant garrisons.
        Quote: Narak-zempo
        However, not all of them were even staffed with trawls.

        The mess of the beginning of the war. With one hand, we are preparing to break through the mine position, with the other, we are destroying minesweeping equipment in the warehouses of Tallinn.
        Quote: Narak-zempo
        There were no worked out devices for trawling the latest bottom magnetic mines, although the Germans could not have known about their use by the Germans against England.

        I will tell you more - the first magnetic mines were trawled back to the Civil, on the Northern Dvina. But the NKVMF safely forgot about it. And the demagnetization works were more reminiscent of the research work of a group of scientists than the preparation of warships.
        However, against the background of the epic failure of the same people's commissariat with conventional anchor contact mines, the situation with magnetic mines does not seem so terrible. The central apparatus of the NKVMF in 1940 received from Germany samples of serial German anchor mines with anti-trawling devices: this device, in particular, jammed the paravane cutter, so that as a result, the paravane mine was pulled to the side of the protected ship on the move. Over the past year before the start of the war, no means of combating these mines were developed, and worst of all, the fleets were not notified of new mines.
        1. 0
          April 29 2019 18: 07
          Quote: Alexey RA
          I’ll tell you more - the first magnetic mines trawled back to the Civil, on the Northern Dvina

          Where does infa come from?
          1. +3
            April 30 2019 10: 37
            Quote: Narak-zempo
            Where does infa come from?

            From inspection and acquaintance with English mines based on the action of iron on a magnetic needle, the extreme difficulty of fighting these mines became clear. Trawls of conventional systems are unsuitable for these mines. Knowing exactly the shores of laying mines, you can remove them with divers - the work is extremely slow and does not guarantee the ultimate safety (skipping one group) of the fairway, since the diver distinguishes the mine only at a distance of an arshin. The network trawl proposed by mine experts was unsuitable. All measures are being taken to raise a serviceable and charged mine, after which it will be possible to come to a certain decision.
            © Telegram by V.N. Varvatsi to the headquarters of the Commander of the Naval Forces of the Republic on the difficulties of fighting English magnetic mines on the Northern Dvina (transmitted in the text of the telegram by B.S. Radzievsky to the mine department of the General Directorate of Shipbuilding). October 15, 1919

            The mine shell consisted of a lower cylindrical and upper conical parts. It was not made of steel, like a contact mine, but of concrete. The lower diameter of the mine was 762 mm, the upper diameter of 528 mm, the height of the mine 794 mm. The total weight of the mine was 713 kg. A mine charge of 360 kg of TNT was placed inside the case in a rubber bag. All the metal parts of the mine were made of copper. The British put mines from a wooden barge with a crane, the capacity of the barge is 20 minutes. A boat with a wooden hull towed a barge. The setting depth reached 25–30 m.

            A well-known Russian magnetologist, VMA teacher, Colonel Vladimir Yakovlevich Pavlinov, and the mine administration consultant, former Fleet Major General Nikolai Nikolayevich Shreiber, were involved in the creation of a contactless trawl. Schreiber developed and manufactured in his workshop the world's first electromagnetic trawl, which was named the Schreiber-Pavlinov trawl. The creation of the trawl was based on a simple design, easily implemented at the level of development of physics, which was achieved by 1920. The trawl was to create a magnetic field, which was easily carried out when an electric current flowed through a conductor, simulating the magnetic field of a ship, in a certain volume of water surrounding the trawl. When a magnetic field created by a trawl was exposed to a mine, the fuse detonated and the mine exploded.

            The civil war in the North, due to the presence of interventionists, differed from the Civil War in the rest of the country in its higher "technological effectiveness". There was a kind of small First World War - with magnetic mines, chemical warfare agents, landings and battles of river ships.
            1. 0
              April 30 2019 14: 40
              Thank you.
              I still believed that the apex of mine technology during the WWII were antenna mines, but it turns out that they were already magnetic.
              Then it is not clear why for the British such a shock was the use of magnetic mines by the Germans in the 40th. And why we ended up without Schreiber trawls in the 41st.
              1. +3
                April 30 2019 17: 40
                Quote: Narak-zempo
                Then it is not clear why for the British such a shock was the use of magnetic mines by the Germans in the 40th. And why we ended up without Schreiber trawls in the 41st.

                Duc ... at all some kind of turbidity was found. Moreover, the same British all their interwar time conducted their development in the field of proximity fuses, and in 1939 they had their own magnetic mines. But they did not bother with measures to counter the same decisions of the enemy.
              2. 0
                25 July 2019 13: 18
                I read somewhere that the British on the submarine went magnetic mines in the Kiel channel
    2. -6
      April 30 2019 05: 11
      Guard! The sofa is sinking! Stop! To prosecute! Execute at dawn! Shpitstruten them! How did you dare to become admirals, and Vladimir overtook you? What is more in your hysterics - really pain for the Navy (so believe me, everything is in order with it) or just elementary envy of capraz and admirals? Where in the vast seas and oceans have you found super-super battleships and battleship destroyers? They are not being built and are not going to be built. This is called a "cover operation", such as smoke screen, camouflage, decoys.
      1. +1
        April 30 2019 08: 57
        Well, just one star didn’t suffice to capra, and it was a long time ago, and I respect those with whom I served the truth I still associate the cap once not with ink in the offices, but with the service .... and to the admiral it’s far from me I’ve recently planted an ink cap three ..... https: //www.kommersant.ru/doc/3960762 I read that you need to judge such ..... but about the smoke screen you made me happy, I really hope so
        1. 0
          1 May 2019 02: 01
          I very much regret that they did not plant those who destroyed the fleet in the 90s and capraz and admirals in the first place. That's right, you need to plant those who "earned" the landing and, in my opinion, there are fewer of them now, and secondly, those who remain are being planted. I am glad that you understood my message, not all the cherries from the cakes should be laid out only to satisfy those who are eager to write (and always in a negative way, always categorically and with very dubious purposes). My wife reproaches me - she really wanted to become an admiral, but life turned to another path, however, the "general's" pension seems to be quite satisfactory for her. It’s a pity for the late father-in-law, he retired on a whim, although he would be quite a worthy admiral. However, he is not alone - in the 90s of bad memory, the Navy lost many worthy officers - my friends and comrades, and not only the Navy, alas. Let's hope that now worthy people will come to replace them.
  5. +7
    April 29 2019 09: 01
    3. The inspector unmanned boat (BEC), the modification of which Mk2 appeared in 2008, the ESA company, despite an active advertising company, could not sell to anyone except the Russian Navy.
    Likewise with French engines for Superjets .... How can you buy a foreign product that no one else buys and which, in fact, has not been worked out ?! And in the absence of the ability to produce it on your own, this all leads to the next "raskarya". If you need import, then buy a reliable and high-quality one, and experiment with domestic developments!
    1. +4
      April 29 2019 12: 30
      Admiral's sons who made a career in NK of the first rank = menagers from the fleet, are only interested in stuffing their pocket, having received a kickback from the French .......
    2. +3
      April 29 2019 18: 46
      How can one buy a foreign product that no one else buys and which, in fact, has not been worked out
      firstly, they bought not an engine, but modern technologies. Moreover, who else could be bought, if not from the French? RawlsRoysk and Pratt-n-Whitney would not sell if they wanted to. Creating your own from scratch is objective, this mission is impossible.
      The abusive bad boat (here it is written with a pitchfork on the water, no evidence, objectively, just not there) is an import boat, it would be worth remembering how much cooperation with France gave us.
      1. +3
        April 29 2019 21: 45
        Quote: Corn
        firstly, they bought not an engine, but modern technologies.

        what technologies ?! Technology remained in France, we have only the cold part of the engine, which does not stand out with any new technology
        Quote: Corn
        olsRoysk and Pratt-n-Whitney would not sell if they wanted to.
        on MS-21 Prime sold the same
        Quote: Corn
        The abusive bad boat (here it is written with a pitchfork on the water, no evidence, objectively, just not there) is an import boat, it would be worth remembering how much cooperation with France gave us.
        And how much did she give ?!
        1. +2
          April 29 2019 22: 13
          what technologies ?!

          production of thermal imagers
          documentation for the "mistral" + large-section assembly technology (USC at one time swore and swore that they themselves could build a copy of the "mistral", there would be money)
          PD-14 is created taking into account the production of sam146.
          The roots of "Boomerang" stretch there to the cooperation of nexter and uvz.
          And this is just what is heard, but how many are still trying not to advertise ...
          on MS-21 Prime sold the same
          Pratt-n-Whitney sells off-the-shelf engines, and this will not help in any way in copying them. Buying a Mercedes you can not recreate a copy in your garage.
          1. +1
            April 30 2019 08: 23
            Quote: Corn
            PD-14 is created taking into account the production of sam146.

            Come on?! - links to the studio! They even have different power applications, closer to sam PD-7 (or 9) which is still in the project.
            documentation for "mistrals" + large section assembly technologies
            So how did it help? It’s very difficult to cook feed? You underestimate the level of our shipbuilding
        2. +2
          April 30 2019 14: 58
          Quote: Stirbjorn
          And how much did she give ?!

          Oh, the account is old here, from the late nineteenth century. For example, billions of dollars in French banks - for Witte's industrialization, for the Trans-Siberian, for the army and navy. For which later I had to fit in for the Entente in PMA, and which the heirs of those bankers still dream of recovering. Well, to a heap of several good projects of ships ("Tsarevich" etc.). And backward views on infantry tactics in modern warfare, an overestimation of field artillery while underestimating the heavy, which backfired later.
          Under the Bolsheviks, they seemed to have better interactions in terms of technology. Offhand aircraft motors Hispano-Suiza 12 (M-100, M-103, M-105, M-107) and Gnome-Ron "Mistral Major" (M-85, M-87, M-88).
  6. +2
    April 29 2019 10: 06
    You should not underestimate this serious problem and treat it as secondary, otherwise, in the event of a possible military conflict, you can regret it very much, this is not the direction in which you can save money, because if our surface ships and submarines are defenseless against modern enemy mines, they will not be able to freely go to sea and carry out their combat missions, this must be remembered before saving on such serious and important issues as mine ships and weapons and detection and clearance of enemy mines.
  7. -3
    April 29 2019 11: 49
    If mines are so smart nowadays, then there should not be many of them (because "mind" costs a lot more TNT), plus you can try to deceive them. Is it possible to return to the tactics of mine breakers: to make an enlarged model of the ship, with a "column" to simulate noise and a magnet to simulate physical fields? It is unlikely that such a device will be expensive.
    1. +1
      April 29 2019 12: 01
      So the article shows modern breakers - SAM-3 and towed helicopters. Plus trawls towed by BECs.
    2. +1
      April 29 2019 12: 32
      But how many laptops and PCs are we which are still smarter than intelligent mines? apparently very little? because they are smart and have to be expensive ..... right now all the smart things are made by robots and it turns out the electronics are very cheap and massive
      1. 0
        April 29 2019 20: 19
        Especially acoustic sensors on laptops now cheap and went software that is capable of spectral analysis of the acoustic spectrum is also almost worthless, you can buy on Ali on the disk and put on the laptop. And acoustic portraits of new ships generally download from torrents, for free.

        After this, you only have to pay for waterproofing for a laptop and a battery on 700 days without recharging. laughing
        1. +2
          April 29 2019 22: 29
          as a specialist, I’ll say that all of you listed the usual work of a programmer, a trivial task even without using neural network techniques, nothing but the time and salary of a couple of specialists who can write C ++ code is worthless. Acoustic sensors are akin to putting on a car against theft !!!! and all the more so since they have long been used in naval systems, Spectral analysis is just sound recordings recorded in the computer’s memory, possibly with noise detection and elimination = a trivial pattern recognition task, you can buy software for musicians on the market or download for free ..... well and the battery that’s on the phone is just big ...... well, you need another wise designer who can understand what I just told you and organize a group of programmers to debug and issue the program ..... it’s much more difficult to launch rockets into space, I assure you.
  8. -8
    April 29 2019 11: 51
    Lies and fraud hidden between many beeches and pictures.
    1. +3
      April 29 2019 12: 01
      And how is it really then?
  9. -8
    April 29 2019 13: 08
    I read the headline, looked who the author was - yeah, retired hydraulic major Klimov - and everything became clear ...
    1. +1
      April 29 2019 20: 15
      And what became clear, if not a secret?
    2. 0
      April 29 2019 22: 31
      cap 3, he served in the navy
  10. +1
    April 29 2019 18: 51
    I think that such articles should start with the format of a comprehensive comparison of what probable opponents have and what we have + what will happen in 5 years. Now he’s googled, in half of the countries there are no minesweepers at all, and nothing lives somehow.
    If the search for a mine is practically no different from the search for a submarine, then how does a specialized anti-mine ship differ from the same corvette? Plastic hull ... but "tanking" mines with the hull of a ship is clearly not a good idea.
    And there are still many similar questions that are not voiced in the article, and I, to my shame, do not know the answers to which.
    1. +3
      April 29 2019 20: 15
      Now googled, half of the countries of Nata do not have any minesweepers at all, and they live for nothing.
      If the search for mines is practically no different from the search for a submarine, then how does a specialized anti-mine ship differ from the same corvette?


      That’s their strength, first of all, they have anti-mine equipment on warships, which reduces the severity of the problem by several times, and secondly, that half of NATO has (approximately) just minesweepers.
      1. +1
        April 29 2019 20: 35
        they have, firstly, mine action equipment and on warships
        here modularity would be useful to our ships. IMHO, to build highly specialized ships to search for sea mines, this is completely an anachronism, I would even say, an inadmissible luxury.
        ...
        As an amateur fisherman, I can firmly say that even the cheapest Chinese echo sounders are good at tracing the bottom of the reservoir (and this is without any of your lasers, electric and magnetic fields), so is it really such a big problem for a huge warship to "reengine" water space within a kilometer radius , after which the destruction of all mines will not present itself with difficulty ?!
        1. +3
          April 29 2019 21: 20
          It is not enough to copy the bottom, we must immediately classify silted mines on it.
          1. -1
            April 29 2019 23: 00
            As far as I know, this problem has been solved a long time ago.
            A six with a cumulative charge (100 rubles apiece) at the end is guaranteed to neutralize the mine, or that it does not lurk at the bottom.
            You can even screw the simplest camera (60 cents on aliexpress for 640 × 480) with a flashlight (from a diode to 6V for 10 cents).
            Total 150 rubles for the identification and clearance of a sea mine. Do you think this is a lot or not?
  11. +1
    April 29 2019 20: 56
    Oh, how difficult it is sometimes to understand and explain to yourself - "so where is Maxim Klimov heading ?!" Sometimes while reading it
    "... Against the background of all other minesweepers of the Navy, the MTShch" Vice-Admiral Zakharyin "of project 02668 stands out - the first full-fledged minesweeper-finder of mines (TSPHM) of the Russian Navy, equipped not only with a GAS, but also with a dynamic positioning system, an automated system for mine action ( ACS PMD) and special self-propelled underwater vehicles (SPA) PMO ... "
    or
    Moreover, “Mayevka” turned out to be our only model of naval underwater weapons and anti-mine complex, developed in a timely manner and funded and successfully passed (immediately!) State tests.
    It seems that here it is -"May Day" on 02668 this is our everything .... (https://topwar.ru/156486-chto-ne-tak-s-nashimi-tralschikami.html)
    And then, sometimes you read
    Moreover, the possibility of an explosion at the “mine defenders” was indicated by the competent domestic experts as the main drawback of the previous complex “Mayevka”!
    There is nothing surprising here: this is a common serious shortcoming of all “severe” SPA software. Strictly speaking, this caused the appearance of “small” TNLA - “one-timers”.
    baaaa and in "May Day" a sea of ​​flaws ...
    K-Ster disposable shredders originally planned for delivery (unlike, for example, German Sea Fox) are extremely expensive, very difficult to operate and do not provide application at subzero temperatures (!). Instead, they were delivered “civilian” SeaScan TNLA surveys, which are generally unable to solve combat missions.
    (i.e., it may sometimes seem that, unlike a financial group, advocating for clarification of the name of products, this is exactly what the article
    1. +4
      April 29 2019 21: 19
      Mayovka is STIUM - a device that finds the mines itself, and sets a destructive charge on them for destruction. They came up with more in 80-x (in the West). Later, to neutralize STIUM, miners began to set mine defenders near the main one.

      The main minefield is equipped with mines that respond to the acoustic fields of surface ships and / or submarines, but miss other targets.

      The defender is undermined by any contact, including STIUM. Including May Day.

      In order to solve the problem of defenders, they first began to use APA-seekers of mines (without the destruction function) and separately disposable destroyers, which were being exploded along with the mine.

      But it is very expensive and impossible with mass demining. Therefore, now the "trend" is the passage of the minefield by self-propelled or towed helicopters with trawls (this is an analogue of the breakers of previous years), which undermine all defenders and part of the main field, and finishing off the remnants using the same STIUM or even destroyers (they will need a little).

      Mayovka is already outdated, there are better solutions, and much better ones.

      The article is all painted.

      Klimov participated in the development of a single anti-mine complex recently, on which our fleet scored a bolt, and there was a revolutionary economic return, it was possible to load dozens of doers to any warship, to lose dozens to explosions and the budget would be much less burdensome than what they put on a few 12700 units.

      But the Navy decided otherwise.

      Maybe Klimov will ever tell about it if he wants.
      1. -5
        April 29 2019 22: 37
        A decent person will never start to tremble, even if we don’t do everything smoothly. Moreover, if he, as you say, took part in some developments. Such as Klimov dislike and regret. By the way, I served half-life in RTV air defense. And I could also tell a lot., but there are such concepts as honor and decency. And constantly blaspheming our sun is mean.
        1. +3
          April 30 2019 10: 55
          Quote: zak167
          By the way, I served half my life in RTV air defense. And I could tell a lot too., But there are such concepts as honor and decency. And constantly blaspheming our armed forces is mean.

          Yeah ... it’s better to console yourself with the thought that upstairs everyone knows, everyone knows - and the wise bosses will cope with the situation. And the wise bosses in the same air defense managed to create a coherent and effective system that in practice did not survive the first battle. Because the enemy suddenly began to act differently from what he had to - he first disabled the OVC radar, then began to crush electronic warfare control channels and use false targets. And the slender anti-aircraft defense system crumbled: the same fighter-induced fighters from the ground, which showed themselves excellently in exercises, in practice, at a critical moment, lost contact and went directly under the attack of enemy fighters.
          1. +2
            April 30 2019 14: 22
            They do not care, they just do not understand the difference between reality and their desires.
        2. +3
          April 30 2019 14: 20
          Do not blaspheme, but cover up the flaws that nobody knows, and just in order to do and eliminate.
  12. +3
    April 29 2019 21: 16
    PLO, PMO, air defense - the main problems of the Russian fleet. We do not need aircraft carriers and nuclear destroyers - start small.
  13. The comment was deleted.
  14. -2
    April 30 2019 05: 00
    Again, a very beautiful article, with a lot of pictures and only one factual link "The reasons for this are set out in the article (2008) by SG Proshkin (the former general director of the Central Research Institute" Gidropribor ", a major national specialist in mines) and B.G. Kalminsky" on an article ten years ago. Opinion of a civilian specialist in the hull of a warship: "Here, one cannot but ignore a number of shortcomings in the hull of Project 12700 (advertised as" unparalleled "). Opinion about Project 12700 by prominent specialist AG Nazarov, Director of Albatross Marine Design Design Bureau . " But ... a private company and military legal proceedings are different things and you should definitely not trust it ... especially since the Thai company builds pleasure boats https://ru-ru.facebook.com/AlbatrossMarineDesign/ No, there are undoubtedly excellent specialists and experts ... Again, the very strange conclusion of the author: "Project 12700 PMK, of course, are critically needed by the Russian Navy, but today they have a number of critical shortcomings (including their use for the main purpose). An urgent modernization of the project (and its complexes) is necessary with the completion of already built ships. " And then what, according to the author, is required ... to modernize and remake, that is, to crush the project for many years. Is it necessary? Is it necessary for a ship as part of a group, a ship of narrow specialization to carry air defense as a patrol, artillery, anti-aircraft weapons, etc. What is this "direct application"? If you load the ship with all of the listed atators, then it can sink. Well, and most importantly, I think that recently not all the cherries for the cake have been laid out for review and bite to the authors of popular comics on the theme "Everything is gone as always!" Do not frighten the inexperienced public with horror stories.
  15. 0
    April 30 2019 09: 44
    I’m not a miner) But I look at the pictures kindly provided by the author of the article and quietly the chisea. It's true?! Are sea mines still hanging on minerpas at high water or above the bottom? Fantasy...
    At the dawn of its creation, a naval mine had a contact detonator in its "horns", which a passing ship would activate when it was leaning on the mine, right? And they were ripped off from their place, cutting the minerpa with a rope. Then there were mines of deeper immersion, getting up on a combat platoon, when, for example, the rope tying the folded minerpa rotted. That is, practically nothing has changed since those times, only the fuses are now not contact, but with the analysis of "physical fields"? Hehe ...
    Actually, given the capabilities of modern electronics, all this, as it were, to put it more precisely ... is strange. One option for a truly effective and inconspicuous mine:
    She lies at the bottom. The body is plastic, inside, in for example glycerin, or another viscous and non-corrosive environment, a shaped charge tube is floating. From what this funny "detector" can detect, it contains several kilograms of lead and a few (5-6 kilograms) of other metals. At the command signal (say, given by a sonar with a special code), the mine unwinds the minerpa and gets into a combat platoon. Guidance of a cumulative charge and detonation - by analyzing data, those very physical fields, and by video data. If the signal did not come, you can write several algorithms, from self-"hunting" to self-destruction. Equipping a mine with a light propulsion system, which will cut off the miner and drive the mine a couple of tens of meters in any direction, will not be any problem. The control system is almost identical to the control of gaming drones, guidance from the CPU.
    Modern processors, even the most primitive ones, allow all this to be implemented at the smallest grain of their capacities. These are all childish tasks! No processor? And for vibration sensors, with a rather powerful processing algorithm, such processes were found 20 years ago, and the charge reserve in the battery was for 5 years. My heart tells me that the processors are just too lazy to "certify", that is, to give bribes to all the hungry, owners of Signatures who have settled in the MO. It has become more difficult now with bribes, but what about the exhaust? They will also take what is now "certified" (no one cares how this ancient junk works, the main thing is that bribes were handed out! Certified! Damn burnt ...)
    In general, all these detectors will not be found on the ground. We need to look for much more effective methods of mine action. Proceeding from the fact that the potential adversary is much less concerned with "certification", if he is concerned about it at all. Yes, they also have corruption there, but its configuration is different. It does not interfere with the use of modern technologies. It’s on them, on technologies, and we must beat ...
    1. 0
      26 July 2019 09: 45
      mines a lot. therefore they are made cheap. and...
      traps in rats and mice do not change for decades, but remain effective
      1. 0
        26 July 2019 17: 19
        The hazard analysis methods used by rats and mice are slightly different from those of military specialists. Making plastic casings with a wide range of shapes is unlikely to be that expensive, and electronics are now priced at the price of sand.
        1. 0
          29 July 2019 10: 03
          after all, a mine is not a smartphone. there are slightly different requirements and they are more expensive than "sand".
          1. 0
            29 July 2019 16: 32
            Unprincipled more expensive. The processor load is negligible compared to smartphone applications. Such a paradox - workload tasks make up tenths of a percent compared to watching stupid video recorders). So the whole refinement is to limit energy consumption to most tasks that are completely unnecessary for military use, and pour compound on it. You don’t even have to steam with cooling - there is nothing to cool.
            This, of course, I exaggerated, but about the load - the truth. And alteration does not present any problems, at least for those who know how to make smartphones for doing nonsense.
            1. 0
              29 July 2019 16: 36
              yes it is clear.
              it's just about installation requirements.
              smartphones aren’t developing for water,
              and if a wet mine explodes on the deck of the minzag, there will be some embarrassment.
              if earlier mines were made of cast iron and even wood, and cocking was on a piece of sugar, now non-ferrous metals, waterproofing, etc. are needed. Still significantly more expensive.
              1. 0
                29 July 2019 16: 40
                I have chosen a smartphone as a device that has clearly excess power, far beyond all the tasks we need, and has "childish" dimensions. Of course, we need a device like it, not the smartphone itself, are you serious ?!)
                We need to develop it on the same principle, that’s all. Alas, there is no one to do this in Russia. All developers with manic diligence were either kicked out of the country, or they were treated much worse. So there are Russian developers. And in Silicon Valley, and in Japan, and in Korea, and in China. In Russia there is no. We do not need.
                My posts are just longing for that country, which, in fact, we do not have ...
  16. 0
    3 May 2019 16: 59
    Quote: SovAr238A
    Real secret hunters have the opportunity to track the entire route of your writings and find out your dynamic IP. And from him to find your actual address - and start hunting for you.

    I will wait for them with pleasure.
  17. 0
    30 May 2019 15: 01
    Why do we need specialized self-propelled mine destroyers?
    Why can’t you use (after detecting the suspect object’s HAS) the cheapest depth bomb from a thrower like RBU-6000?
    In this case, the issue with mine defenders (and at the same time with the need to trawl these very mine defenders) will disappear by itself.
    And to protect the minesweeper from self-propelled mines of the Captor type — install a complex of anti-torpedo weapons on minesweepers with the NK Package, since this self-propelled mine is actually a torpedo?
  18. 0
    25 July 2019 15: 10
    who can tell why firewalls are not suitable for mine clearance right now?
    build an empty barge that is resistant to underwater explosions and collect mines forward
    tanks used to do this before - they just rolled the roller in front of them and that’s all.
    no super technologies are needed, there is no risk.
  19. 0
    12 August 2021 18: 56
    Against the background of this little article, I would like to say a few words in defense of Project 12700 and our Navy. Of course, there are many shortcomings and a desire to improve everything, but not everything is as bad as Maxim Klimov is trying to convince us. There are expert assessments of this project and they are fundamentally different from the opinion of the author of this article. The author Maksim Klimov's reputation as an expert is not very good. He has the entire Northern Fleet, and in general the Russian Navy is incapable. Now the minesweepers of Project 12700 did not please him. I wrote something horror, but for a specialist all this is a misleading reader inexperienced in the subject.
    It makes no sense even to comment on this writings of him. There are a lot of inaccuracies and not elementary knowledge of the materiel. Here is what only one of the few (not only he) writes about this "expert" Dmitry Ledovsky in the article "Inability of Maxim Klimov"
    https://ren.tv/blog/dmitrii-ledovskoi/408673-nedeesposobnost-voennogo-eksperta-klimova

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