Military Review

About the discussion around the breakthrough and death of the cruiser "Emerald"

263

Laying out material "The death of the cruiser" Emerald ", the author naively believed that he was reasoning about obvious cases, and did not expect the article to provoke such a lively discussion. However, in the comments and in a separate material published subsequently by one of the participants in the discussion, so much was interesting that there was no way to get past this variety of hypotheses and postulates.


The article that is brought to your attention is a reflection on a number of opinions expressed by various participants in the discussion, which seemed most interesting to the author. So…

Liar, liar!


What always surprised me was the tendency of my fellow citizens to be extremely harsh, if not a harsh assessment of the actions of our ancestors. Today we are guilty of all faults, we are each historical we study the document, like a ruthless prosecutor, whose motto: “The lack of a criminal record is not your merit, but our flaw.” And we only have to find some inconsistencies - everything, the guilt of the “defendant” has been fully proved, and this or that historical character is declared to be an unworthy deceiver. Moreover, having proved the “guilt” of a historical person in just one thing, we don’t believe any of his words, for a liar will lie a second time.

But is that right?

It is well known that the need of mankind in court arose thousands of years ago. Since then, the methods for determining the right and the guilty have been continuously improved and changed many times. We can say that the principles of legal proceedings that exist today (may professional lawyers forgive me the fuzziness in terminology) contain the wisdom of centuries - they are probably imperfect, but this is the best that mankind has thought of today. What is the foundation of today's justice?

Two important principles apply to the accused, the first of which is the presumption of innocence. The essence of this principle is that the burden of proving criminal guilt lies with the prosecutor, and from this two main consequences follow:

1. The accused is not obliged to prove his innocence.

2. Fatal doubts about the guilt of the accused are interpreted in his favor.

The second principle is that the accused has the right to defense. This is expressed in the fact that the accused:

1. Must know what he is accused of.

2. May refute the evidence and provide evidence justifying it.

3. Has the right to protect his legitimate interests by other means and methods.

So, you need to understand that when we bring this or that historical person to the court of descendants, we seriously violate the modern procedure of justice even if we cannot give the “defendant” the right to defense. The reason is objective: the “defendant” has long passed away and cannot defend his interests in any way by giving “testimonies” in our “court”. Well, nothing can be done about it, but it is all the more important to respect with respect to those whom we judge at least the presumption of innocence.

In simple terms, one should not, having found this or that inconsistency in historical documents, declare the person who committed it in all mortal sins. Before you blame a person for something, even with seemingly “irrefutable facts” in your hands, you should think about it - or maybe the whole point is that we did not take something into account?

Report of V. N. Ferzen - a hoax?


We will probably start in the morning of May 15, when the Baron decided not to obey the orders of his immediate commander, Rear Admiral N. I. Nebogatov, and did not surrender his cruiser to the enemy. "Emerald" went on a breakthrough. Here is how VN Ferzen describes it in his report:

“The confusion caused by the surrender of our ships diverted the attention of the enemy from me for the first time and allowed me to move forward a little. He lay down on SO, as on the course, equally diverging from the cruisers to the right and left.
The right-wing cruisers, Niitaka, Kasagi and Chitose, however, soon chased after me. ”

Alas, the composition of the Japanese detachment is completely untrue. In fact, the “cruiser on the right” is the 6th combat detachment, which included the Suma, Chioda, Akitsushima and Izumi before the Tsushima battle. "Kasagi" at the squadron N.I. Nebogatov didn’t exist at all, and the Chitose, although he really pursued the Emerald in the future, but the distance between them was such that they could hardly see him on the Russian cruiser, not just identify him.

And there is a fact - V.N. Fersen in his report incorrectly indicated the naming of the enemy cruisers. Is this a mistake, or is it a deliberate lie? Well, the motive is present: since the Chitose and Kasagi are one of the fastest Japanese cruisers, they, of course, will be able to get to Vladivostok much faster than the Emerald. But if so, then it turns out that the departure of V.N. Ferzen in the bay of Vladimir is more than justified. So, there is a motive, and that means V.N. Fersen lied, and twice (once for each cruiser).

But if we do not rush, we will see that this hypothesis is completely refuted by the report of V.N. Fersen. Firstly, V.N. Fersen writes that during the chase, "I have an insignificant, but still an advantage in the course." Agree, it will be difficult for the authorities to assume that the less fast-moving Japanese cruisers following the Emerald will be able to get to Vladivostok faster than the last. If we take into account the drop in speed of the Russian cruiser to 13 knots, then, again, there is no need to invent any “Kasagi” - any Japanese cruiser was now noticeably faster than the “Emerald” and could be the first to reach Vladivostok. Secondly, assuming malicious intent on the part of V.N. Fersen, one would expect that he would write directly in the report that “Kasagi” and “Chitos” would go to guard Vladivostok, but this is not so.

Without tiring the esteemed reader by quoting various fragments of the report, I note that V.N. At the beginning of his breakthrough, Fersen saw Japanese cruisers both to his right and to his left (which, among other things, is mentioned in the quote above). He defined the “right” cruisers incorrectly, but the “left” did not seem to make out at all, only mentioning that the Japanese detachment consists of 6 cruisers. It can be assumed that V.N. Fersen saw the 5th Japanese battle detachment: “Chin-Yen”, three “Matsushima” along with the Yasyama memo - the 4th combat detachment was also not far from them, so the error in one ship is understandable.

So V.N. Fersen points out in his report that, in his opinion, the cruisers who were located to his right, and 6 “left” cruisers, didn’t go to Vladivostok at all.

About the discussion around the breakthrough and death of the cruiser "Emerald"

And it turns out that if the “Emerald” commander wanted to “rub points” to his superiors, then he should have “discovered” “Chitose” and “Kasagi” not in the right, pursuing his detachment, but in the left, which seemed to go to Vladivostok! But he did not do this, and if so, then there was no motive for a conscious lie that he was pursued by two Japanese “fleets” by V.N. Fersen is not visible. But what then happened?

Let's look at the silhouettes of the Chitose and Kasagi cruisers.


And compare them with the silhouettes of the cruisers of the 6th combat detachment.




As you can see, all cruisers have two pipes and two masts, located with a slope to the stern. Of course, you can see the differences - for example, the Akitsushima mast is located in front of the bow superstructure, and for the rest of the ships - behind it. But V.N. After all, Fersen was not looking at the pictures in the album, but the warships of the enemy, and at a great distance. As we know, the Emerald did not open fire during its breakthrough, because the distance was too great for its guns. At the same time, the 120-mm guns of the Russian cruiser could shoot 9,5 kilometers, that is, Japanese ships did not come closer to this distance to the Emerald.

Finally, one should not forget about the color of the ships of the United fleet, which, as you know, could make identification difficult - especially over long distances.

So, taking into account the similarity of silhouettes and the distance range, it is not surprising that V.N. Fersen took the same Akitsushima for Kasagi or Chitose - and is it worth looking for some malice in this?

Not just a liar, but an ignorant liar?


The next mistake V.N. Fersen, who amused many from the heart, is the presence of the armadillo Yasima in the diagram drawn by him, which, as you know, died as a result of a mine blast near Port Arthur and therefore could not participate in the Tsushima battle.


However, many history buffs know that the Japanese very successfully concealed the fact of the death of "Yasima" and therefore the Russians quite expected to meet him in battle. But the thing is that in fact in Tsushima the Japanese had one three-pipe ("Sikishima") and three two-pipe battleships. And in the diagram of V.N. Fersen lists four two-pipe battleships - Asahi, Mikasa, Fuji, and Yashima! This was the reason to accuse V.N. Ferzena in terrible unprofessionalism is the commander of a cruiser, and does not even know the silhouettes of the ships that make up the backbone of the enemy fleet ...

It seems to be so, but ... Let us nevertheless apply the very presumption of innocence and consider whether it is possible that the error in identifying Japanese ships is not related to the unprofessionalism of the commander of the Emerald.

It is quite obvious that by the time the 1st combat detachment appeared, when the Japanese cruisers were already surrounded by the remains of the Russian squadron on all sides, V.N. Fersen was more than enough all sorts of worries and troubles. And the exact identification of the Japanese battleships was somewhere at the very bottom of the large list of tasks before him. It can be assumed that he did not do this at all, and only then, after the detachment, some signalman reported to him that he had seen four two-pipe Japanese battleships. The mistake, again, is excusable given the range, the angle on the Japanese ships and their color. Accordingly, by the method of simple exception V.N. Fersen determined that there were Asahi, Mikasa, Fuji and Yashima in front of him (the three-pipe Sikishima was missing) and indicated so on the diagram.

Is such an option possible? Quite. Of course, we cannot in any way establish today how things really were: maybe so, or maybe that way. And this means that, from the point of view of justice, we are dealing with the classic case of the presence of fatal doubts about the guilt of the accused. So why, in accordance with the presumption of innocence, not interpret them in favor of V.N. Fersen?

As we hear and write


A few words about the classic mistake of a novice researcher, which consists in an overly verbose perception of what is written in historical documents.

The fact is that the maritime service (like any other) has its own specifics, and those who chose it as their path, of course, know this specificity. But those who read historical documents are not always familiar with her and, as a rule, not in full. Hence annoying misunderstandings arise. When a naval officer makes a report, he writes it for his immediate superiors, who fully knows the specifics of the service and who does not need to verbose explain all the nuances “from the beginning”. And when the report is taken to analyze by a layman, he does not know these nuances and this can easily make a mistake.

Reread article "Some aspects of the reward for courage in the failure of orders". In it, the author decided to verify the statement of V.N. Fersen:

"... headed for a point equally distant from Vladivostok and St. Vladimir’s Bay, decided to walk up to 50 miles from the coast and there, depending on circumstances, go either to Vladivostok or Vladimir."

And the author seemed to do brilliantly - he made a map of the Emerald movement, found a turning point into the bay Vladimir and ... saw that it was not at all equidistant from Vladivostok and from Vladimir, because Vladivostok was farther as much as 30 miles or about 55,5, XNUMX km.


The map is taken from the article "Some Aspects of the Reward for Courage in Failure to Follow Orders"

What will this work tell the reader? There is already one of two things - or V.N. Fersen did not at all consider the transition to Vladivostok and initially walked closer to Vladimir Bay, or V.N. Fersen and the rest of the Emerald officers are so ignorant of maritime affairs that they are unable to even identify on the map a point equidistant from two geographical points. And the reader, of course, comes to the "obvious" conclusion - or V.N. Fersen is a liar or layman.

But what really? We open the testimony of V.N. Fersen of the Investigative Commission, and read:


Not Vladivostok, but Askold Island.

“But how is Askold?” Why - Askold, because it was about Vladivostok ?! ” - a dear reader may ask a question. The answer lies in the fact that in order to go to Vladivostok, oddly enough, Baron V.N. Fersen ... it was not at all necessary to go directly to Vladivostok. It was enough to bring the Emerald to a point where, if necessary, it could anchor and be guaranteed to contact Vladivostok with the help of a ship's wireless telegraph in order to get help from the cruisers there. And such a point was exactly Askold Island, located 50 km southeast of Vladivostok. That is about. Askold was about 50 km closer to the turning point of the Emerald than Vladivostok.


Askold Island circled in red

That’s the answer to the “mysterious 30 miles of V.N. Fersen ". The point to which he led the Emerald was not equidistant from Vladivostok and Vladimir Bay, but from Fr. Askold and Vladimir bays. Moreover, V.N. Fersen obviously considered it unnecessary to state such nuances in the report, but he explained everything exactly in the testimony of the Investigation Commission.

What can be said about this? Firstly, when working with historical documents, there is no need to spare time for cross-checking the information contained in them. Especially in those cases when it seems that you made a certain historical discovery, so to speak, “tore the covers from the unsightly inner essence” of a particular historical person. This is just the case when you need to measure seven times, and then think after that: is it worth cutting? ..

And you always need to remember that, without knowing the specifics, we, "land rats" (of course, this does not apply to sailors), we can not see very much of what the naval officer reports in his report. And therefore, the desire to interpret “as it is written” can easily lead us to “As we hear and write” - with all the ensuing consequences.

However, all of the above is nothing more than errors of judgment, which are, of course, completely excusable.

About information distortion


In the article “Some aspects of rewarding for courage in case of failure to follow orders”, the author quotes a report by V.N. Fersen:

"At this point, it was necessary to decide where to go: to Vladivostok or Vladimir. I chose Vladimir, not Olga."

In the presented form, this quote looks like a classic “Freudian reservation”: if the commander chose between Vladivostok and Vladimir, then how miraculously did the choice shift to Vladimir and Olga? And the author naturally emphasizes this:

“Wait, wait, Mr. Fersen, what does Olga have to do with it ?! It seems he chose between Vladivostok and Vladimir? Where did Vladivostok go? And in the quote above were Vladivostok and the bay of St. Vladimir. So easily Fersen Occam’s razor cut off everything unnecessary. "

And, of course, everything becomes clear to the reader. In no Vladivostok V.N. Fersen did not intend to, but only fooled his bosses about his intention. But…

Let's read the quoted passage of the report in full.


We see that the indicated fragment admits a double interpretation. It can be interpreted so that V.N. Fersen writes about the need to choose between Vladimir and Vladivostok, and then explains why he chooses between Vladivostok and Vladimir, and, for example, not between Vladivostok and Olga. In other words, there is no “Freudian reservation”, but perhaps there is a phrase that is not quite well constructed. But to understand this from an incomplete quote taken from the context in the article “Some Aspects of Awarding for Courage in Failure to Follow Orders” is impossible.

V.N. Fersen did not comply with the order?


Here the logic of reasoning is this: the commander of the Russian forces, Vice Admiral Z.P. Rozhdestvensky ordered to go to Vladivostok, and the commander of the Emerald violated this order, because instead of Vladivostok he went to Vladimir Bay. And therefore, it is reprehensible: “... imagine that in 1941 the commander, having received the order to take up defense at the Dubosekovo junction, judged that it was better to do this in Khamovniki, and eventually dug in a bar on Tverskaya. For this I would be immediately shot at the verdict of the tribunal before the formation. "

It seems to be logical, but ... Exactly what seems to be. The fact is that the army does not order “To take up defense at the Dubosekovo junction!” The army gives the order "To take up defense at the Dubosekovo junction by 08.00 16.11.1941," and nothing else. That is, the order stipulates not only the place, but also the time of its execution. If it is not specified, then this means that there is no clear time frame for the execution of the order.

In this case, the commander who issued the order, generally speaking, does not care how the order issued to them is executed. That is, his subordinate has the right to choose the methods of execution of the order, unless otherwise specified in the order directly. Moreover, in the Wehrmacht, for example, giving petty instructions was not at all welcomed: there it was believed that the officer would have enough of a common task, and his qualifications should be enough to determine the best way to accomplish it on the spot, while at the remote headquarters they might not accept into account some important nuances. Incidentally, the independence of the commanders is one of the reasons for the superiority of the German army over the forces of England, France, the United States, and even the Red Army in the initial period of the Second World War.

So, Z.P. Rozhdestvensky did not give exact instructions to the commander of the Emerald, how and when he should reach Vladivostok. So, it was left to V.N. Fersen. And he had every right to go to the bay of Vladimir, Olga, or somewhere else, if this served the ultimate goal - to get to Vladivostok. Of course, there was no violation of the order in this and could not be.

Escape from the battlefield?


I must say that a similar interpretation of the actions of V.N. Fersen in the morning of May 15 can not cause anything but bewilderment. Personally, I naively believed that the battlefield is the place where opponents fight. But the remnants of the Russian squadron did not fight, they capitulated: how could one escape from what does not exist?

Why V.N. Fersen did not go to Vladivostok from the turning point?


It seems that the answer is obvious and repeatedly indicated in the documents of V.N. Fersen - because he was afraid of the watch of the Japanese cruisers. But no! The following considerations are presented to us:

“Moreover, the patrol line is about 150 km, and the Japanese have chances only in the afternoon. It’s highly unlikely to catch a single cruiser at night. ”

So, the commander of the Emerald, it turns out, had all the chances. Well, let's count a little. Suppose the Japanese really decided to block all roads to Vladivostok at night. Then 6 Japanese cruisers need to patrol a 150-kilometer line. In total, each Japanese cruiser would have only a 25-kilometer section. It would take a little more than an hour to complete its full 12-node move, and after the cruiser reaches the “end” of the patrol area allocated to it, the neighboring cruiser leaves at the point where the Japanese ship started its patrol.

Visibility in the dead of night was then 1,5 km or more. It was at that distance that on the night of May 14, the Sinano Maru discovered the unlit warships of the 1st and 2nd Pacific Squadrons. But, I must say, then the weather did not have and it is possible that during the possible breakthrough of the Emerald into Vladivostok, visibility was much better.

Thus, through simple calculations, we get that 6 Japanese cruisers even at the deepest night at any given time could see 18 kilometers of the sentry line (each cruiser sees 1,5 km in both directions, total 3 km), 150 km line “scanned” a little more than an hour. Skipping such a line is super luck, but by no means an “extremely improbable chance.” But the question is that the Japanese saw the direction of the Emerald, knew that he was leaning east and could organize a patrol not along the entire 150-km line, but on the cruiser’s most probable route. In this case, the Emerald could pass to Vladivostok only by a miracle. It was such an option that V.N. was afraid Fersen.

Why V.N. Fersen did not dare to go to Vladivostok, and Chagin took a chance?


And really. Where the commander of the Emerald was cautious, Chagin with his “Diamond” (the armored cruiser I mistakenly called in my last article) simply went to Vladivostok, and that’s all. Why?

The answer is very simple. Almaz separated from the squadron on the evening of May 14 and, according to the report of its commander:

“Adhering to the Japanese coast, and not meeting a single Japanese ship, having 16 knots on the move, I walked past the island of Oshima about 9 hours. on the morning of May 15th, but held out even before 2 o’clock. days on the previous course NO 40 ° and then lay down on the N-d holding on Cape Povorotny, which I approached at 9 o’clock in the morning. ”

Obviously, the “Diamond”, which went all night at 16 knots and could maintain such speed further, did not need to be afraid of Japanese patrols. Chagin did not know the fate of the remnants of the squadron, and could not assume that N.I. Nebogatov capitulates. Accordingly, he had no reason to believe that the Japanese would free up their forces to organize a patrol in Vladivostok. And even if they were found, then in order to intercept the Almaz, they should have run to Vladivostok almost in full swing at the end of the battle, which, of course, was extremely unlikely. The fact is that the comparatively high-speed Almaz was at Cape Povorotny already at 09.00 on May 16, and the Emerald, with its 13 nodes, moving from the turning point, could be there 15-16 hours later.

Yes, and having discovered enemy cruisers, Chagin at his maximum 19 knots had good chances to evade the battle, but the Emerald was doomed.

conclusions


Everyone will make them for himself. I ask dear readers only one thing: let's be more careful in evaluating certain actions of our ancestors. After all, they can no longer explain to us the background of these or those of their actions and thereby dispel our errors - in those cases when we allow them.
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  1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
    Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 6 May 2020 18: 14 New
    +4
    To pour crap on the memory of their ancestors is, unfortunately, a national trait of Russians. The Tatars are different. There is no hatred for their people, which is "wrong" for the most part among the Russian nationalists, or, for example, among the Ukrainian. He is just right. And even some of the battalions of the SS "Idel-Ural" division are good guys. Because the first thing, having received weapons, the absolute majority fled to the nearest partisans in companies, or even battalions. For example, the 825th battalion of more than 500 people, created by the Germans from prisoners of the Idel-Ural legion, on February 23, 1943, went over to the side of one of the detachments of the 1st Vitebsk partisan brigade, having shot the Germans who served in the legion. And Musa Jalil, who joined the legion, posthumously received his title of Hero of the Soviet Union and a monument in the center of Kazan. And dousing Fersen's shit while sitting on the couch doesn't take much mind. But he had to endure a difficult months-long campaign, the Battle of Tsushima, a breakthrough ...
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 6 May 2020 20: 46 New
      +4
      Farezin, good or bad?
      The question is old, as are the events of the breakthrough and death of the Emerald!
      Andrey tried to selectively hang the norms and principles of modern legal proceedings on the events of a century ago !!! And if you play back? And to put the captain of the cruiser in the dock not of a modern court, but instead of more than a century ago! Let’s be without the tablets of Hammurabi, the edicts of Rome or the Russian Truth, but it is minus 115 years !!! And basta !!! If I am not mistaken, the decline of the century of Catherine the Great or the beginning of the reign of Pavel Petrovich !!! Hypothetically, we will represent the tribunal and .... I will not bother with examples of that era, but in the end we get a monarchy searchlight and a saber for courage !!!
      At the same time, the latter proved to be true during the breakthrough (or leaving - to whom one likes), but lost the entrusted cruiser !!!
      And no matter what caused, the main shaky balance of merit and error, without internal throwing and embellishment!
      Sincerely, Vlad !!!
      R.s. Andrey are waiting for the sequels !!!
      1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
        Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 6 May 2020 20: 52 New
        +6
        Vladislav hi In my opinion, the destruction of the cruiser is worthy of more respect than the meek surrender of the battle-worthy ships to the enemy. In any case, Fersen escaped captivity, but the fact that the cruiser did not bring it to Vladivostok, so he had the militia killed, and so, on parole, he reached out this mass-dimensional model of the cruiser. And this single cruiser did not decide anything after the defeat of three Pacific squadrons of the Russian imperial fleet.
        1. ser56
          ser56 6 May 2020 21: 23 New
          +4
          Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
          And this single cruiser didn’t solve anything.

          A strange thesis is a lot of money! And Diamond and Pearls served well further ... Emerald in every way would not be superfluous ...
          1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
            Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 6 May 2020 23: 14 New
            +6
            Quote: ser56
            A strange thesis is a lot of money!

            In comparison with the lost squadrons, they are not so big. I'm more worried about something else. According to the Second Pacific Squadron of the ships killed in Tsushima, the Japanese found the Sisoy the Great EBR, but did not conduct any research. In the 1980s, a Japanese millionaire allegedly lifted gold from the armored cruiser Admiral Nakhimov, but these are stories, although they dived towards it. In 2003, the Koreans found the Dmitry Donskoy cruiser at the bottom. Also, of course, the wreckage of the "Izumrud" near Vladivostok. In 2007, the Irtysh transport of the second Pacific squadron was examined, which sank off the Japanese island of Honshu from combat damage received in the Tsushima battle. All. Borodintsy, "Oslyabya", "Navarin", "Ushakov" and the rest are waiting in the wings. To be honest, I myself cannot understand such indifference to Tsushima battleships. Most of the ships killed in battles are searched for and examined in detail. Moreover, the tasks there are far more difficult to solve - gigantic search areas, kilometer depths (for example, Bismarck or Lexington). And in the Tsushima Strait it is not a very difficult task - the search area is relatively small, and many coordinates are known for sure, the depths there are at most 120-150 m.May 14-15, 2020 will be the next anniversary of the battle. The main battleships that died in the battle have not been investigated, such attempts by the USSR - the Russian Federation were not even made. At present, there are no serious projects on the part of the state to study the Tsushima battleships, public associations of underwater search engines are too weak for such an undertaking, and there is no interest in this topic from wealthy individuals. The question just arises - after all, there are depths of up to 150 meters, no more, and we are in normal relations with the Republic of Korea, even if only to enlighten with sonar. It is clear that most of the EBRs are keel up, but still. All the same, billions of money are spent on the Main Temple of the RF Armed Forces. It's bad that there is no money to honor the memory of the sailors. This is the history of the country.
            For example, in the spring of 2017, an expedition was organized to the site of the sinking of "Danton", which managed to obtain excellent underwater photographs of this half-light readier at the bottom of the Mediterranean Sea. https://www.colsbleus.fr/articles/9573
            Could ours do a similar job.
            1. ser56
              ser56 7 May 2020 14: 51 New
              +3
              Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
              Compared to lost squadrons, they’re not so big.

              in addition to the surviving ships - quite ... request
              Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
              it is incomprehensible such indifference to the Tsushima armadillos.

              What do you want to know? request
              Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
              All the same, billions of money are being spent on the Main Temple of the RF Armed Forces.

              and what's wrong with that is a long tradition! When RI killed soldiers were buried, and prisoners were held captive .... hi
              Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
              Could ours do a similar job.

              what for? just spend money? Well, I understand that they find and examine submarines in the Baltic - they disappeared, and these EDBs died in front of many ... why disturb the dust ... here's a monument to them - another thing, or a chapel is better ... hi
              1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
                Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 7 May 2020 20: 45 New
                +2
                Quote: ser56
                what for? just spend money? Well, I understand that they find and examine submarines in the Baltic - they disappeared, and these EDB died in front of many ... why disturb the dust ...

                Sergei hi We are talking about search work at the site of the death of the Second Pacific Squadron, areal sonar survey of the bottom topography of the search area using a multi-beam echo sounder installed on a remotely controlled underwater vehicle of a heavy working class (hereinafter TNLA), visual inspection using TNLA of search objects to identify, obtain photo and video materials, photogrammetry of detected objects, the formation of their 3D models.
                The dust is already disturbing. In the Baltic, Finnish divers examined the cruiser Pallada, which was sunk by the German submarine U-28 on September 1914, 26. The explosion caused the boilers to detonate, after which the cruiser sank almost instantly with the entire crew (597 people).

                The coat of arms of the Russian Empire on the nose of the Pallada cruiser.
                1. ser56
                  ser56 7 May 2020 20: 59 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
                  We are talking about prospecting at the site of the death of the Second Pacific

                  I understand - the goal?
                  Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
                  here the Finnish divers explored the cruiser Pallada,

                  must be banned and punished - this is a military burial
                  1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
                    Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 8 May 2020 20: 44 New
                    +1
                    Quote: ser56
                    I understand - the goal?

                    The purpose of research in the Pacific Ocean in the bay of the Tsushima battle is to create photocards and 3D models of ships at the bottom. Because this is the history of the Russian fleet and the memory of the dead sailors.
                    Quote: ser56
                    must be banned and punished - this is a military burial

                    Having visited in August 2013, the divers of the Finnish group Badewanne, who was lying at the bottom of the Pallada, saw that the captain’s cabin was robbed. The compass and some other valuable instruments disappeared, and some of the equipment was moved to the deck, probably for subsequent theft. Marauders are everywhere unfortunately.
                2. Saxahorse
                  Saxahorse 7 May 2020 22: 32 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
                  The explosion detonated the boilers, after which the cruiser sank almost instantly

                  The first time I hear that water tube boilers are able to detonate ..
                  1. ser56
                    ser56 8 May 2020 13: 42 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Saxahorse
                    able to detonate ..

                    detonation of water is generally impossible in any type of boiler - probably just an unfortunate expression request
                    1. Saxahorse
                      Saxahorse 8 May 2020 22: 44 New
                      +2
                      Quote: ser56
                      detonation of water is generally impossible in any type of boiler - probably just an unfortunate expression

                      In general, a similar problem was in flame-tube, cylindrical boilers. They have several tons of superheated water inside, and upon sudden destruction, something like an additional shock wave forms from the sharply released steam. But in water tube boilers, the amount of water in the tubes is small and this effect does not occur.
                  2. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
                    Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 8 May 2020 20: 39 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Saxahorse
                    able to detonate ..

                    It was correct to write the detonation of the ammunition on board the Pallada. The torpedo struck the middle of the hull and hit the artillery cellars.
                    1. Saxahorse
                      Saxahorse 8 May 2020 22: 45 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
                      The torpedo hit in the middle of the hull and fell into the artillery cellars.

                      Yes, it was. Ammunition exploded.
          2. Nehist
            Nehist 7 May 2020 07: 46 New
            +2
            N-yes ... Especially Pearls ... With its mediocre death ...
            1. ser56
              ser56 7 May 2020 14: 46 New
              +2
              Quote: Nehist
              N-yes ... Especially Pearls ... With its mediocre death ...

              there are more francs to blame, the KR was in the port ... request
              1. Nehist
                Nehist 7 May 2020 15: 26 New
                +2
                Um ... And where did the shift go? Overslept all that is possible
      2. ser56
        ser56 6 May 2020 21: 21 New
        +3
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        what was the reason

        commonplace navigational error ... the commander’s fault is beyond doubt ... request
        everything that came before that - I agree with the author - is quite reasonable ...
        Well, the actions after the accident are just a psychological breakdown, but there are other officers' faults, first of all the senior one - it was necessary to help the commander ... repeat
      3. aleks399
        aleks399 9 May 2020 00: 46 New
        -1
        DIn the days of Ekaterina and Suvorov, there was also Captain Saken !!!!! remember this !!! in and compare with the COWARD Ferzen! and all the reflections of the "d Ivanny expert" from Chelyabinsk is just an attempt to whitewash! he would have whitewashed Rudnev even if he had not even accepted the battle, but simply handed over the Varyag to the Japanese! there is an old truth - do what you must and what will happen !!!!!! if Fersen had followed her and just walked straight to Vladik, then Doshol would have become a hero !!!! and who else thinks, in contrast to the "sofa expert" and that Togo will send the 6th detachment for the small and already useless (after Tsushima) cruiser? what for !!!!!!! what would come under the blow of Russia and Thunderbolt and possibly also the Bogatyr !!! and spoil a beautiful barrel of honey with a fly in the ointment in the form of several drowned Japanese! In general, Ferzen suffered from his own pride and cowardice, deciding that the Japanese would chase him to Vladik, because he is so strong and significant !!!
    2. Nikolai Korovin
      Nikolai Korovin 6 May 2020 21: 24 New
      +2
      Excuse me, personally I am Russian, and I have not noticed such a feature either for myself or for any of the Russians I know. You are confusing something. As for Baron Fersen - unfortunately, I have not seen the previous discussion. But on the points presented, I completely agree with the author, it is only somewhat surprising that the author excluded the explosion of the cruiser from consideration, which causes the greatest bewilderment in the actions of the captain. In my unenlightened opinion, the urgent need to blow up the cruiser at the moment when it was blown up did not exist yet, and it might well have not appeared. I would like to know the opinion of competent persons on this matter. Not by way of accusing the captain, but simply by way of clarification. How grounded were his fears that the Japanese were about to capture the cruiser, which, of course, was undesirable. That is, personally, I got the impression that at first the captain showed desperate courage, and then he lost his mind from everything that happened. That is, he was in a state of passion and was not able to soberly assess the situation when giving the order to blow up the cruiser. There is still such a dilemma - which is better: to break through to your bank at a course close to the order and explode, or turn around 16 points and intern in a neutral port, as they did under the command of Rear Admiral Enquist "Oleg", "Aurora" and, as far as I remember, "Pearl"? One way or another, Fersen successfully continued his service, rose to the rank of vice admiral, and was dismissed by the Provisional Government, and Enquist was dismissed immediately. True, he was also in the rank of vice admiral, and it should be borne in mind that he was already an elderly man.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        7 May 2020 01: 12 New
        +4
        Quote: Nikolai Korovin
        But I completely agree with the author on the points presented, it is only somewhat surprising that the author excluded the cruiser’s explosion from consideration, which causes the most bewilderment in the captain’s actions.

        And all this was in my article, which began the discussion of "Emerald". In short, the cruiser, of course, did not need to be blown up. We can assume that V.N. Fersen some form of neurosis or other form of mental disorder, and that this case should rather be studied from a medical point of view. The commander of a battleship cannot afford such a luxury as neurosis, he must be extremely psychologically stable in any situation. And in the future, Fersen should not have been appointed to the post of commander of a ship, or, moreover, a detachment of warships, as it happened in reality
        1. nemoXX
          nemoXX 21 May 2020 09: 34 New
          0
          I expressed my opinion about Fersen's actions above: in my opinion, his actions, which resulted in the death of the cruiser, did not require rewarding "for bravery", but severe punishment. But I was interested in the introductory part of your article on how justice should be carried out ... there is a lot to talk about. In short, avoiding accusations that "this is not on the topic": the whole History of Russia - the 1000-year-old Tyranny of the Horde type - is life WITHOUT Justice! Replaced by an endless search - rather, a destination! - hordes of "enemies and traitors", which have long become a popular hobby and mentality. It is the 21st century, but millions of carriers of this mentality sacredly believe that the "great and mighty" USSR with mountains of weapons capable of incinerating the entire planet was destroyed by Gorbachev and Yeltsin ... and all the other millions of fiery and exemplary patriots did not at all than! They are "simply unlucky" with the rulers ... I think that they will never be lucky as long as the sober analysis and judgment based on the Law are replaced by the opinion of the boss, who accidentally became such precisely because he is a dullness and a clone of the Gray rulers.
    3. Jura 27
      Jura 27 7 May 2020 10: 34 New
      +1
      For starters, a bit of politoty and about sofa experts.
      There was such a gene. Vlasov. And let’s not say anything about him while sitting on combat sofas, because we, surrounded by the army, didn’t command in a hopeless situation, we didn’t climb the swamps beneath St. Petersburg.
      1. Jura 27
        Jura 27 7 May 2020 10: 41 New
        0
        [/ quote] But V.N. After all, Fersen was not looking at the pictures in the album, but the enemy’s warships, and at a great distance. [Quote]

        The byad is that Fersen was a cruiser of the "Suma" type, quite clearly (for Fersen) defined long before surrender:
        "At dawn on May 15, they saw that our detachment consists of battleships:" Nikolay "," Eagle "," Apraksin "," Senyavin "and the cruiser" Izumrud ". Keeping on the left traverse of" Nikolai ", I saw on my left the smoke of one ship, which he immediately reported to the Admiral with a signal; before the "Nikolay" had time to answer our signal, there were 4 smokes, which he again reported with a signal. The telegraph continued to work as before between near and distant ships. The number of enemy smokes reached 7; one of his ships of the "Suma" class separated from the others and approached in clear visibility, "
        1. Jura 27
          Jura 27 7 May 2020 10: 47 New
          -1
          [/ quote] for example, in Akitsushima the mast is located in front of the bow superstructure [quote]

          Akitsushima, Ferzen also long before the change determined:
          "Gave the fullest speed, put it on board, went under the stern at the end battleship and approached the clear visibility of the enemy ships. It turned out:" Matsushima "," Akitsushima "," Hashidate ", and" Itsukushima "and three small cruisers - all in one detachment; "
          Confusing it neither more nor less with the battleship "Chin-Yen".
          But, the main thing is not in the confusion of individual ships, but in the fact that Fersen saw the main forces of the Yap in the South, instead of the North. Well, he also dreamed of "Yakumo" only 30 cables !!! Which, in the place indicated by Fersen, was not at all.
          1. Jura 27
            Jura 27 7 May 2020 10: 52 New
            -1
            [/ quote] The answer is that in order to go to Vladivostok, oddly enough, Baron V.N. Fersen ... it was not at all necessary to go directly to Vladivostok. It was enough to bring the Emerald to a point where, if necessary, it could anchor and be guaranteed to contact Vladivostok by ship’s wireless telegraph [quote]

            Of course, you could go to Askold, and then after all, coal was not required, turned on the gravitsapfu and a minute later in Stock.
            And how, could Stoke be contacted from Vladimir if the distance was almost twice the radius of the radio station?
            1. Jura 27
              Jura 27 7 May 2020 11: 00 New
              -1
              [/ quote] We see that the indicated fragment allows a double interpretation. [quote]

              There is no ambiguous interpretation, if up to this time Ferzen still babbles something about Vladivostok, then here he simply and brazenly “forgets” (more precisely, scores) on a trip to Vladivostok. And without any explanation - what they say there might be the Japanese or, I saw the smoke on the horizon and did not go.
              1. Jura 27
                Jura 27 7 May 2020 11: 06 New
                -1
                [/ quote] At the same time, the commander who issued the order, generally speaking, does not care how the order issued to them is executed. That is, his subordinate has the right to choose how to execute the order, [quote]

                How magically could Fersen obey the order to reach Stok from Vladimir if he complains of a lack of coal as early as 10 a.m. on May 15?
                If you have barely enough coal, what the hell are you barging for in the opposite direction?
                There can be no double interpretations and excuses; there is no corny coal to go through Vladivostok to Vladimir.
                1. Jura 27
                  Jura 27 7 May 2020 11: 15 New
                  -1
                  [/ quote] Thus, through simple calculations, we get that 6 Japanese cruisers, even at the deepest night, at each moment in time could see 18 kilometers of the sentry line (each cruiser sees 1,5 km in both directions, total 3 km) while the entire 150 km line was “scanned” in just over an hour. To skip such a line is super luck, but by no means an “extremely improbable chance”. But the question is that the Japanese saw the direction of the Emerald, knew that he was leaning to the east and could organize a patrol not along the entire 150-km line, but on the cruiser’s most probable route. In this case, the Emerald could pass to Vladivostok only by a miracle. [quote]

                  This is complete nonsense: "Emerald" has great superiority in speed, well, the enemy noticed you, - gave full speed, two or three turns and adieu. The night was dark, Fersen writes that the shore was barely visible a few hundred meters away. The enemy will turn on the searchlight - a good target for the Russians.
                  In addition, "I" could lean from 18-00 on May 15 to Cape Gamow and slip through there, if the Yapi are waiting for him only at Cape Povorotny. So, the Japs could not concentrate on only one side of the h. PV.
                  1. Jura 27
                    Jura 27 7 May 2020 11: 17 New
                    -1
                    [/ quote] Personally, I naively believed that the battlefield is the place where opponents fight. But the remains of the Russian squadron did not fight [quote]

                    The exchange of fire was a fact.
                    1. Jura 27
                      Jura 27 7 May 2020 11: 20 New
                      0
                      [/ quote] that the comparatively fast Almaz was at Cape Povorotny already at 09.00:16 on May 13, and the Emerald, with its 15 nodes, moving from the turning point, could be there 16-XNUMX hours later. [quote]

                      Completely not true. "I" could have been at the turning point already at 14-00 (going to 13 knots), i.e. just 5 hours later than "Almaz".
                      1. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 7 May 2020 11: 22 New
                        0
                        [/ quote] Yes, and having discovered the enemy cruisers, Chagin at his maximum 19 knots had good chances to evade the battle, but the Emerald was doomed. [quote]

                        19 knots - this is a long time ago, and "I", recently more than 21 knots gave.
                      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        7 May 2020 14: 22 New
                        +3
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        There was such a gene. Vlasov. And let’s not say anything about him while sitting on combat sofas, because we, surrounded by the army, didn’t command in a hopeless situation, we didn’t climb the swamps beneath St. Petersburg.

                        And let you not do your favorite thing - juggling. I propose to evaluate the actions of Fersen from the perspective of today's jurisprudence. According to which Vlasov is clearly guilty of treason.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        The byad is that Fersen had defined the Suma-class cruiser quite clearly (for Fersen) long before surrender

                        Indeed, byada. With your knowledge of the materiel byada, Yura. Ferzen identified the Suma-class cruiser when the number of cruisers within sight increased to 7, that is, when the 4th combat unit approached, and which of the cruisers Ferzen identified as the Suma-class cruiser is unknown.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Akitsushima, Ferzen also long before the change determined:
                        "Gave the fullest speed, put it on board, went under the stern at the end battleship and approached the clear visibility of the enemy ships. It turned out:" Matsushima "," Akitsushima "

                        That is, Fersen identified Akitsushima as part of the 5th combat detachment, not the 6th in any way.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Of course, you could go to Askold, and then after all, coal was not required, turned on the gravitsapfu and a minute later in Stock.

                        And there he anchored at the island and asked for help on the radio - the distance of 30 miles for Telefunken, obviously, was quite affordable.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        There is no ambiguous interpretation, if up to this time Ferzen still babbles something about Vladivostok, then here he simply and brazenly “forgets” (more precisely, scores) on a trip to Vladivostok.

                        Yura, I just can’t understand one thing - did you really think that your blatant lie would get away with it when you gave an incomplete quote that distorted the meaning of what Ferzeny wrote? I thought you were smarter.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        How magically could Fersen obey the order to reach Stok from Vladimir if he complains of a lack of coal as early as 10 a.m. on May 15?

                        Coal could be in Olga, cruisers could come from Vladivostok (Russia left, by the way).
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        This is complete nonsense: "Emerald" has great speed superiority

                        A new historical discovery from Yura27 - it turns out that the Emerald after the damage to the pipeline could give full speed :)))
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        The night was dark, Fersen writes that the shore a few hundred meters was barely visible.

                        Do not confuse the shore with a ship. These are slightly different objects.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        The exchange of fire was a fact.

                        Fersen left the squadron only after the admiral ordered the capitulation. And a few shots from Oryol to the battle somehow do not pull.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Completely not true. "I" could have been at the turning point already at 14-00 (going to 13 knots), i.e. just 5 hours later than "Almaz".

                        It is written - from the pivot point. And in order to be at Pivotny later than Diamond for 5 hours (I take your word for it, although I feel in vain) you had to immediately turn and go to him in order to be at the line of a possible watch just in the middle of the day. Brilliant strategy, Jura.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        19 knots - it's been a long time in trials

                        If the cruiser could for a long time support 16 knots, then the maximum may well be 19
                      3. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 7 May 2020 17: 14 New
                        -4
                        [/ quote] And let you not do your favorite thing - juggling. I propose to evaluate the actions of Fersen from the perspective of today's jurisprudence. According to which Vlasov is unequivocally guilty of treason. [Quote]

                        Even I do not recall the trial of Vlasov, from the point of view of today's jurisprudence. It could well have been (if the trial took place) that Vlasov fought against the criminal communist regime that illegally seized power in 1917.
                        I will quote a well-known author in narrow circles: “I ask respected readers only one thing: let's be more careful in assessing certain actions of our ancestors. After all, they can no longer explain to us the background of these or those of their actions and thus dispel our delusions - in those cases where we allow them. "
                      4. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 7 May 2020 17: 16 New
                        -2
                        [/ quote] is defined by Fersen as a "Suma-class cruiser" [quote]

                        In this case, Fersen confidently identified the type of "Suma", and not some "Kassagi".
                      5. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 7 May 2020 17: 20 New
                        -1
                        [/ quote] That is, Fersen identified Akitsushima as part of the 5th combat detachment, not the 6th. [quote]

                        The problem is that there was no "Akitsushima" in the 5th detachment, instead of it there was, suddenly, the battleship "Chin-Yen". And this was determined by the commander not of the Chukhonskaya laiba, but of the reconnaissance cruiser.
                      6. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 7 May 2020 17: 23 New
                        -2
                        [/ quote] And there he anchored off the island [quote]

                        But what about the ubiquitous Japanese? They will come up and easily take the immobilized cruiser captive. And no weapons for courage. Pichal.
                      7. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 7 May 2020 17: 26 New
                        -2
                        [/ quote] You gave an incomplete quote, distorting the meaning written by Ferzeny? [quote]

                        How can one distort, the most blatant exclusion by Ferzen of Vladivostok, from the number of points where to go (and it is ordered to go there exactly)?
                      8. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 7 May 2020 17: 29 New
                        -2
                        [/ quote] Coal could be in Olga, [quote]

                        He could not know this. Coal certainly could only be in Nakhodka, well, except for Stock, of course.
                      9. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 7 May 2020 17: 31 New
                        -2
                        [/ quote] A new historical discovery from Yura27 - it turns out that the Emerald after the damage to the pipeline could give full speed [quote]

                        Teach the materiel: the steam line to the AUXILIARY mechanisms is out of order. Yes, and this steam line was quite successfully drowned.
                      10. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 7 May 2020 17: 32 New
                        -2
                        [/ quote] And a few shots from Oryol to the battle somehow do not pull. [quote]

                        But, on the battle, numerous Yapov shots are being pulled.
                      11. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 7 May 2020 17: 34 New
                        -2
                        [/ quote] Do not confuse the shore with the ship. These are slightly different objects. [Quote]

                        A cruiser at sea will be seen a bit further, but not globally.
                      12. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 7 May 2020 17: 38 New
                        -2
                        [/ quote] It is written - from the pivot point. And in order to be at Pivotny later than Diamond for 5 hours (I take your word for it, although I feel in vain) you had to immediately turn and go to him in order to be at the line of a possible watch just in the middle of the day. An ingenious strategy, Jura. [Quote]

                        From the turning point, an hour late, i.e. 6 hours later than Diamond, and not 15-16 hours, as you thought up.
                      13. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 7 May 2020 17: 40 New
                        -2
                        [/ quote] If the cruiser could support 16 nodes for a long time, then the maximum may well be 19 [quote]

                        19 knots, this is a measured mile, with a selective Cardiff angle and a relatively fresh team.
                      14. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        8 May 2020 10: 07 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        I don’t even remember the trial of Vlasov, from the point of view of today's jurisprudence

                        He violated the oath - a fact, went over to the side of the enemy - all the more fact, so there is no need for violent fantasies.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        I will quote a well-known author in narrow circles: “I ask respected readers only one thing: let's be more careful in assessing certain actions of our ancestors.

                        Yes exactly. And what does Vlasov's justification have to do with it? :)))) You have built a logical chain: "Since Andrei suggests to be more careful in assessing ancestors - he justifies Vlasov"? Well bravo, a complete lack of logic - just in your style.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        In this case, Fersen confidently identified the type of "Suma", and not some "Kassagi".

                        Yeah. It's just not clear, in the 6th or in the 4th combat detachment, and rather, even in the 4th.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        The problem is that there was no "Akitsushima" in the 5th detachment, instead of it there was, suddenly, the battleship "Chin-Yen". And this was determined by the commander not of the Chukhonskaya laiba, but of the reconnaissance cruiser.

                        Yes, having correctly identified 3 Matsushima, in one - he was mistaken. From a great distance. And about who and how was mistaken in determining the types and even classes of ships you have already written above. So - yes, it is the commander of the scout, and not the Chukhon’s layba.
                        And with 100% accuracy, Jura, the ships are identified only in your fantasies.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        But what about the ubiquitous Japanese? They will come up and easily take the immobilized cruiser captive.

                        Could, of course. But if the cruiser had approached Askold at night, then it would have stayed until the morning — the Japanese were unlikely to control its bays, and Russia would come in the morning.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        How, one can distort, the most blatant exclusion by Ferzen of Vladivostok, from the number of points where one should go

                        The question is that it was only in your perception that was insolent. And so - Ferzen explained in great detail why he did not go to Vladivostok both in the report and in the testimony of the Investigative Commission.

                        As you can see, the condition of the cruiser’s vehicles became a key factor.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        He could not know this. Coal certainly could only be in Nakhodka, well, except for Stock, of course.

                        So I would wait for Russia
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Teach the materiel: the steam line to the AUXILIARY mechanisms is out of order.

                        And what, sorry? From this, the Emerald has not lost the ability to walk 21 knots? Oh, how many wonderful discoveries we have ....
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        But, on the battle, numerous Yapov shots are being pulled.

                        In your imagination - no doubt. You have it very rich :)))
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        A cruiser at sea will be seen a bit further, but not globally.

                        There is a fact - 1,5 km in the worst weather.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        From the turning point, an hour late, i.e. 6 hours later than Diamond, and not 15-16 hours, as you thought up.

                        Emerald came to the turning point 3 hours later than Diamond to the turning point. How was he supposed to move in at least 3 hours to Rotary? Teleportation?
                      15. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 8 May 2020 15: 38 New
                        -2
                        [/ quote] Violated the oath - a fact, switched to the side of the enemy - especially a fact, [quote]

                        He violated the oath to the bloody Stalinist regime and fought against the usurpers of power, the Bolsheviks, the annihilators of the peoples of the USSR. At the present time, they will definitely be justified.
                      16. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 8 May 2020 15: 41 New
                        -2
                        [/ quote] And where does Vlasov’s excuse? [quote]

                        Despite the fact that I can discuss the actions of any character, at least Ferzen, at least the current resident. Freedom of speech - have you heard about this? Or are you in a scoop forever stuck?
                      17. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 8 May 2020 15: 45 New
                        0
                        [/ quote] in one - wrong [quote]

                        Everything is exactly the opposite: he was right in one thing, he confused everything else, despite the "clear visibility" and two reconnaissance. But the main thing is not in this, but in the fact that he misled the location of the main enemy forces, and with an accuracy of 180 degrees.
                      18. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 8 May 2020 15: 54 New
                        -1
                        [/ quote] As you can see, the condition of the cruiser’s vehicles became a key factor. [quote]

                        It's all about cars, and collective. Testimonies on this account of an uninterested (in awards) officer are available. Yes, and 100 revolutions, there is no way to prevent a night trip to Stoke.
                      19. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 8 May 2020 15: 55 New
                        0
                        [/ quote] Askold would have stood up until the morning - hardly the Japanese began to control his bays [quote]

                        Teach a materiel - there is one bay and that, from the sea.
                      20. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 8 May 2020 15: 57 New
                        0
                        [/ quote] And so, sorry? [quote]

                        Auxiliary and main mechanisms. This does not mean anything to you, of course.
                      21. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 8 May 2020 16: 00 New
                        0
                        [/ quote] In your imagination - no doubt. [quote]

                        It is clear that the shooting of opponents with hits and damage is not a fight for you, as well as an easy training like fitness.
                      22. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 8 May 2020 16: 03 New
                        0
                        [/ quote] There is a fact - 1,5 km in the worst weather. [quote]

                        There the squadron consisted of 38 pennants, and most of them were ships much larger than the Emerald. Is there a difference with a single small cruiser?
                      23. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 8 May 2020 16: 07 New
                        0
                        [/ quote] Emerald came to the turning point 3 hours later than Diamond to the turning. How was he supposed to move in at least 3 hours to Rotary? Teleportation? [Quote]

                        You have written complete nonsense about 15-16 hours. And "I" could well have come up to the view of Povorotny metro station in 6 hours, going through the point indicated on the map (12-00).
                      24. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 9 May 2020 04: 23 New
                        -3
                        Are you talking to yourself?
                      25. Jura 27
                        Jura 27 9 May 2020 05: 27 New
                        0
                        [/ quote] You [quote]

                        Another hamloe emerged.
                        For, to put it mildly, not smart, I explain: there are quotes, of the one I'm talking to.
      2. Sergey Zhikharev
        Sergey Zhikharev 8 May 2020 17: 12 New
        +1
        I understand that freedom of speech, but what does the current president have to do with the Russo-Japanese war and the Tsushima battle?
      3. Jura 27
        Jura 27 9 May 2020 05: 30 New
        0
        [/ quote] but what is the relation [quote]

        Direct - either you can discuss any actions of any, or censorship, under the pretext: you are sitting here on the sofas, and they are there ....
      4. Sergey Zhikharev
        Sergey Zhikharev 9 May 2020 12: 32 New
        0
        those. if you post a post about which admiral Rozhdestvensky was bad, other colleagues can start discussions in the comments of Nimitz, Yamamoto and Kuznetsov
      5. Jura 27
        Jura 27 10 May 2020 05: 57 New
        0
        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
        those. if you post a post about which admiral Rozhdestvensky was bad, other colleagues can start discussions in the comments of Nimitz, Yamamoto and Kuznetsov

        This often happens here, you can see the comments for this post - what and who just did not remember.
        And by the way, I don’t remember, an admiral by the name of Rozhdestvensky.
      6. Sergey Zhikharev
        Sergey Zhikharev 10 May 2020 08: 52 New
        0
        Novikov-Surf Tsushima, Admiral Rozhdestvensky.
        RozhDistvensky wrote that it would be clear that this is not a typo, and this is the same admiral.
      7. Jura 27
        Jura 27 10 May 2020 12: 13 New
        0
        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
        Novikov-Surf Tsushima, Admiral Rozhdestvensky.
        RozhDistvensky wrote that it would be clear that this is not a typo, and this is the same admiral.

        Is this some kind of relatively new edition? With an editor error. In the old editions, there was no such admiral.
  2. aleks399
    aleks399 9 May 2020 00: 52 New
    0
    for the "sofa expert" you can present as many quotes as you like from the excuses of the captain who screwed up the cruiser, you just answer yourself - how many miles the ship flew ON THEIR RESERVES OF COAL to the Alka Bay and how much it had to go the direct way to Vladivostok !!!!! comments are unnecessary!
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 6 May 2020 18: 24 New
    +9
    And there is a fact - V.N. Fersen in his report incorrectly indicated the naming of the enemy cruisers. Is this a mistake, or is it a deliberate lie?

    From my own experience of comparing the reports of the participants in the events with the real situation (I trained on the Germans of the WWII period), the joke "Lies as an eyewitness ..."
    For example, if you read the report of P. Schmalenbach (2nd artillery officer of "Prince Eugen") about the battle in the Danish Strait, then in the course of the text it turns out that even with a delay (already during the battle) the enemy ships were clearly identified as "Hood" and King George, but towards the end of the report, King suddenly disappears and a Birmingham-class light cruiser appears ...

    So Fersen is quite not alone on the jambs ... :)
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 6 May 2020 18: 47 New
      +7
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      For example, if you read the report of P. Schmalenbach (2nd artillery officer of "Prince Eugen") about the battle in the Danish Strait, then in the course of the text it turns out that even with a delay (already during the battle) the enemy ships were clearly identified as "Hood" and King George, but towards the end of the report, King suddenly disappears and a Birmingham-class light cruiser appears ...

      Classic case of recognition error:
      1. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 6 May 2020 18: 59 New
        +4
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Classic case of recognition error:

        Well, everyone sins ...
        Here's an example of a piece from the report of P. Jasper (the head of Schmalenbach) about the same battle ...
        I did not recognize the enemy as battleships and considered them to be cruisers to the end (I reasoned that it could be Exeter or Birmingham or Fiji-class "cruisers"). Based on this, I decided to use high-explosive shells with a bottom fuse.

        For which later ogreb from BdK Schmund. :)
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 6 May 2020 19: 10 New
          +3
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          Well, everyone sins ...
          Here's an example of a piece from the report of P. Jasper (the head of Schmalenbach) about the same battle ...

          Well, think of it, I confused battleships and cruisers. One honored naval commander, a pomnitsa, mistook the escort aircraft for heavy ones and stubbornly tried to sink these tins with armor-piercing shells. smile
          1. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 6 May 2020 19: 16 New
            +7
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Well, think of it, I confused battleships and cruisers. One honored naval commander, a pomnitsa, mistook the escort aircraft for heavy ones and stubbornly tried to sink these tins with armor-piercing shells. smile

            So there were still no others ... :)
            Shells, in the sense.
      2. ser56
        ser56 6 May 2020 21: 24 New
        0
        Quote: Alexey RA

        Well, these are flyers, not sailors ... bully
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 7 May 2020 11: 28 New
          0
          Quote: ser56
          Well, these are flyers, not sailors ...

          All honestly - these are sea flyers. smile
    2. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 6 May 2020 18: 58 New
      +3
      Believe me, Tatars do not like Tatars more than anyone else. The mentality is like that.

      But Tatars love their culture without exception, from small to large.
      1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
        Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 6 May 2020 19: 37 New
        +1
        Anatoly, a couple of years ago, a distant relative in Tatarstan had the windows knocked out of my car. He accidentally left it near the ice palace, where on the eve of “Salavat Yulaev” defeated a local hockey club. And the numbers on his car were Bashkir. So, it is clear to love that they do not love.
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 6 May 2020 19: 46 New
          +2
          Oh, the relationship between the Tatars and the Bashkirs is a separate song, long and funny. But - yes, there is a centuries-old mutual hostility.

          How many did not try to find the reason, or at least a bunch of reasons - it does not work. Culture is almost one to one. Language is the same. Outwardly, in most cases, they are also indistinguishable. The mentality is the same.

          But they don’t love each other at all.
          1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
            Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 6 May 2020 20: 42 New
            0
            It is also thought that the Tatars and Bashkirs are too close in language, culture, religion, which allows the intelligentsia of these peoples to make claims against each other. It is not a secret, for example, that many Tatars in Bashkiria recorded themselves as Bashkirs, especially those who wanted to occupy high posts in the republic, or during the census of Tatars they recorded as Bashkirs to increase the number of the titular nation, all this creates some kind of friction. And so ordinary people are mostly neutral to each other. If you take Ilishevsky, Chekmagushevsky, Sharansky and other western regions of Bashkortostan, you will not find a single Bashkir there, all are Tatars. Although according to the census there are Bashkirs.
            1. AllBiBek
              AllBiBek 6 May 2020 20: 44 New
              +1
              And then everything is simple, inside the RSFSR, the borders from the bulldozer were drawn.

              Just north-west of Bashkiria before that was part of the Kazan province.
              1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
                Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 6 May 2020 20: 45 New
                0
                The Tatars, who ended up in a republic that was not their own, protested, but Moscow said "let's figure it out, don't worry!" They still understand it. During this time, almost half of these Tatars have already been included in the number of Bashkirs.
                1. AllBiBek
                  AllBiBek 6 May 2020 20: 50 New
                  +1
                  Yes, I know, my grandmother managed to tell the details before she fell into insanity. She and her family were also recorded in the Bashkirs.

                  She also talked a lot about hunger in the Volga region; she was already an adult then.
                  1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
                    Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 6 May 2020 20: 55 New
                    0
                    Quote: AllBiBek
                    She and her family were also recorded in the Bashkirs.

                    This Tatars will not forgive the Bashkirs. And they will not forget. It’s like violent Ukrainization. And about the Idel-Urals, the Bashkir elite knows what the Tatar elite will do if they unite. Therefore, they will discourage this everywhere.
            2. pmkemcity
              pmkemcity 7 May 2020 05: 44 New
              0
              They say that according to the latest geneticists, the Bashkirs are Mongols, and the Tatars are Russians (I exaggerate stop)
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 6 May 2020 18: 36 New
    +3
    Incidentally, the independence of the commanders is one of the reasons for the superiority of the German army over the forces of England, France, the USA, and even the Red Army in the initial period of the Second World War.

    Just with the independence of the commanders in the Red Army in the initial period of the war, everything was just wonderful: the commanders of the fronts considered it normal to not follow the orders of the OGS, the army commanders did not follow the orders of the commanders of the fronts of the same OGS, the division commanders on the fly canceled the agreed plans and invented new ones. But for some reason, this independence did not work for us.
    And how good it was with independence in IJA - Imphal is an example of this. To stop the advance of the division and impose a discussion on the commander of the Japanese commander was the norm. Pomnitsa, by the end of this operation, the Japanese had to replace all the divisors. smile

    One of the reasons for the superiority of the German army is independence, relying on a high level of knowledge and training of officers. Without basic knowledge and experience, autonomy only hurts. The Germans, even with all their experience, sometimes broke such independent decisions that one wonders — the same von Leeb, instead of encircling Leningrad on the Karelian Isthmus (as prescribed by Directive No. 35), tried to take the city by storm, and he got burnt.
    1. ser56
      ser56 6 May 2020 21: 28 New
      +1
      Quote: Alexey RA
      the independence of the commanders in the Red Army in the initial period of the war was all just wonderful:

      it is not independence in the execution of the order, but the loss of control of the center of the troops ... repeat
  • Thrifty
    Thrifty 6 May 2020 18: 57 New
    -2
    A mistake that could end in tragedy for the cruiser if his commander cannot determine the type of ship that his battle pennant pursues. So, it’s not long to substitute your ship for the shooting of Japanese armored boat cruisers, beguiling them with minosocks. ...
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 6 May 2020 19: 02 New
      +4
      Quote: Thrifty
      A mistake that could end in tragedy for the cruiser if his commander cannot determine the type of ship that his battle pennant pursues.

      This is a common problem in all fleets ... :)
  • smaug78
    smaug78 6 May 2020 19: 01 New
    +4
    Beautiful, as always, article. Weighted and to the point !!! We are waiting for new ones!
  • Niko
    Niko 6 May 2020 19: 14 New
    +2
    Thanks to the author, a good addition to what has already been written, it will be good if it goes to work (for us "commentators") I think one of the main mistakes: "rewarded for bravery" in a particular situation, everyone surrenders and he is a fine fellow! Boldly, quickly, brave. criticized for mistakes in management, could that, it was necessary .... what does this have to do with a concrete and undoubted case: a manifestation of courage at the time of the surrender of the squadron?
  • alone
    alone 6 May 2020 19: 53 New
    -1
    Everyone can condemn someone’s actions 115 years ago without raising the fifth point from the couch ...
    1. Macsen_wledig
      Macsen_wledig 6 May 2020 20: 19 New
      +2
      Quote: lonely
      Everyone can condemn someone’s actions 115 years ago without raising the fifth point from the couch ...

      Here the question is rather not to "condemn", but to understand "why so" ...
      1. alone
        alone 6 May 2020 20: 25 New
        0
        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        understand "why so" ...


        And this is the most difficult ... But we don’t know exactly what the commander of the ship was guided by? What was the real situation .. All these maps, notes from the ship's logbook, reports, reports are all good, but there is one significant factor that we never we don’t know .. This is the moral and psychological state of a person .. And this is the most important
        1. Macsen_wledig
          Macsen_wledig 6 May 2020 20: 32 New
          +1
          Quote: lonely
          And this is the most difficult ...

          I do not argue...
          But trying is still worth it.
  • Oleg Zorin
    Oleg Zorin 6 May 2020 19: 59 New
    +2
    Thank you very much, dear Andrey! Such rarity is now quality content on the VO!
  • Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 6 May 2020 20: 24 New
    +3
    I agree with the author completely. Even in his comments he said more than once that before judging someone for something in a particular episode of a war at sea, one must first put oneself in his place, moreover, knowingly removing the knowledge known after the fact. And then all smart, as a number of members of the forum say, sitting on the couch smile At the same time, do not forget to add your own psychological stability to the water, the severity of responsibility for the entrusted crew, the likelihood of completing the task and responsibility for failure to perform, etc. blah blah blah.
    Reality, she. Panimash, is fundamentally different from World of Warships yes request
    Andrey Nikolaevich, you like hi
  • Avior
    Avior 6 May 2020 20: 29 New
    +3
    Captain Tsur Zee Hans Langsdorf somehow mistook the cruiser for destroyers and did not pay attention to them, and these villains behaved with "incomprehensible impudence."

    The story ended badly for the captain tsur see; he wrapped himself in a ship's flag and shot himself.
    But the ship burned down and sank.
  • Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
    Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 6 May 2020 21: 04 New
    +2
    Good publication Andrey Nikolaevich hi There is a deep study of the issue. As in previous publications about the Russo-Japanese War. thank drinks
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 7 May 2020 04: 23 New
      +2
      what an epic stupidity. The main rule is to spin as you like and follow the order. you do not ascribe Masonic mottoes to Russian officers) rely on God and do not condone yourself. initiative in carrying out an order is always a plus if you achieve a result. only-RESULT is always important. not how you got it, and that's a fact.
    2. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 7 May 2020 12: 11 New
      +1
      Quote: aleks399
      Vlad discovered Thunderbolt and Russia would have blown it to hell !! and there maybe Bogatyr come in handy.

      Damn, one more! From one dock to two disabled people?
  • ser56
    ser56 6 May 2020 21: 17 New
    +1
    Bravo, author! not everyone is ready to admit their mistakes! drinks
    "The army gives the order" To take up defense at the Dubosekovo junction by 08.00 on November 16.11.1941, XNUMX ", and nothing else. That is, the order specifies not only the place, but also the time of its execution."
    a small addition - in the order they give the line of defense - at least 2 points repeat
    and off-top ... about hitting the Yellow Sea: in addition to shortening the distance, when the accuracy of Russians began to fall abnormally - compare the number of opponents killed and wounded - again an anomaly repeat Not too many anomalies? hi
  • Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 6 May 2020 22: 41 New
    0
    The author again undertook to discuss the wrong questions, especially in continuation. Why long discussions about legal proceedings, presumption of innocence, etc. Nobody offers to dig Ferzen, shoot and bury back ..

    Readers are primarily interested in the causes of what happened to the Emerald, which is quite reasonable, having understood the reasons, we can draw conclusions. At a minimum, take measures to prevent this from happening in the future.

    Questions that remained unclear.
    1) Why Fersen mixed up Japanese ships? At that time, were they engaged in the study of silhouettes, and specifically on Emerald, how well were the signalmen trained?
    2) Why was Fersen so afraid of chasing and intercepting the Japanese light forces? After all, he knew about the presence of large Russian ships in Vladivostok, options for meeting them were discussed among the officers during the campaign.
    3) Why suddenly it was urgently necessary to climb Olga Bay in the middle of the night? We already know that there was no catastrophic situation with fuel; coal reserves allowed us to wait in the morning. Yes, and in principle, it was initially possible to reset the course to 10 economic knots and approach Olga at dawn.
    4) What is the reason for the sudden panic on board after aground? Self-doubt due to lack of experience and poor knowledge of the enemy's capabilities?
    1. Nehist
      Nehist 7 May 2020 01: 19 New
      +2
      On 1 point. Even the officers and signalmen of the 1st TOE confused the silhouettes of Japanese ships even though they had seen them more than once before the war, this is a generally accepted problem even now. Hmm ... I wonder what could send a wok to the sea after the death of Rurik and who prevents the Japanese from strengthening the light cruisers of the DBK? Ferzen has no plans for mine landings in general to go to Vladivostok and that roulette ... I agree on the 3rd point. 4th there everything is complicated, without outside help the Emerald would hardly have been taken aground. Considering that Japanese fishermen snooped in crowds along the coast to the flesh to Kamchatka, they would quickly find it and there in full swing to the Kuril Islands where there is a lighthouse and all nuclear-powered nuclear reactors will be notified by radio, the mediocre schooner will travel for a maximum of two days.
      1. rytik32
        rytik32 7 May 2020 10: 49 New
        +1
        Quote: Nehist
        Ferzen has no plans for landings in general, to go to Vladivostok and that roulette ... Considering that Japanese fishermen snooping in crowds along the coast to the flesh to Kamchatka, they would quickly find it and there in full swing to the Kuril Islands where there is a lighthouse and all nuclear-powered nuclear reactors will be notified by radio , mediocre schooner two days go maximum.

        Suppose Emerald entered the bay without incident. Would stand a day or two. What's next?
        Would mines resolve in front of Vladivostok? Or would the Japanese hide in bases, including fishermen?
        Or could the ship be repaired?
        Those. in fact, any point of departure to the Far East except Vladik is a dead end.
        1. Nehist
          Nehist 7 May 2020 11: 04 New
          0
          Do not go aground, the team can repair everything that is possible on its own, in Olga there is an outpost with coal reserves where you can reach the same boat on the same boat. In the end, time appears to calmly assess the situation. And do not make decisions in an emergency mode. You do not take into account the morale of the crew. And yes, how were you going to dismantle the 120mm gun from the cruiser and place it on the shore?
          1. rytik32
            rytik32 7 May 2020 11: 18 New
            +1
            How is it known that there is an outpost and coal reserves and that the Japanese did not destroy them?
            It was possible to calmly assess the situation at sea. Why is the bay calmer? On the contrary, the Japanese will walk along the coast.
            1. Nehist
              Nehist 7 May 2020 11: 40 New
              0
              There is no desire to prove something to you. You are interested in what year the settlement was founded in Olga Bay. And the significance of this settlement for the development of the Far East. Photo how do I see a gun from Novik?
              1. rytik32
                rytik32 7 May 2020 12: 04 New
                0
                Yes, a photo from Novik. There the guns were removed and installed on the shore.
                1. Nehist
                  Nehist 7 May 2020 13: 12 New
                  0
                  Yeah, only I live on Sakhalin, and when they removed the cannon from Novmyuik, you won’t believe it, but they brought it to the shore on a barge. The Korsakovsky post was quite developed for those times, but where the Emerald ran aground there was a dead taiga.
        2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          7 May 2020 11: 47 New
          0
          Quote: rytik32
          Suppose Emerald entered the bay without incident. Would stand a day or two. What's next?

          And then the armored cruiser Russia would come, and would bring the Emerald to Vladivostok (in fact, he managed to come to the rescue).
          1. rytik32
            rytik32 7 May 2020 13: 06 New
            +1
            In any case, a very strange decision to go in the direction opposite to Vladivostok.
            The farther the less chance of helping their own.
            If we are afraid of the Japanese, then Russia will not help - the Japanese are not fools, the old pelvis will not be allowed to slaughter but they will come with the cruisers Kamimura.
            If we are afraid of mines, then you should call Vladivostok on the radio as soon as the range allows. Let them blow out the trawl.
            I don’t see any benefits from leaving anywhere except Vladivostok.
            1. Nehist
              Nehist 7 May 2020 13: 15 New
              0
              Gg for Emerald would be enough and a pair of old pelvis like Sim or Chin-Yen
            2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              7 May 2020 13: 19 New
              +1
              Quote: rytik32
              I don’t see any benefits from leaving anywhere except Vladivostok.

              There is only one advantage - if the Japanese set up a patrol near Vladivostok, the Emerald will be destroyed. At 13 knots, he could neither fight properly nor leave. Why give the Japanese an extra victory?
              Quote: rytik32
              The farther the less chance of helping their own.

              Distance does not matter. The only important thing is the ability to contact Vladivostok, this could be done because it was assumed (and rightly) that there is a wireless telegraph in Olga or Vladimir
              Quote: rytik32
              If we are afraid of the Japanese, then Russia will not help - the Japanese are not fools, the old pelvis will not be allowed to slaughter but they will come with the cruisers Kamimura.

              Not at all necessary. The whole problem is that the Japanese, generally speaking, are also after the battle, and they would hardly start chasing the entire fleet behind the Emerald. They would limit themselves to armored cruisers, which were enough to destroy the Emerald or destroyers - in general, light ships that could still go to Vladivostok.
              But the most important thing is that no matter what forces the Japanese sent to watch, even if they were Kamimur, after a couple of days they would have to leave the maximum anyway - the coal was over. They are after the battle.
              1. rytik32
                rytik32 7 May 2020 16: 34 New
                0
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                But the most important thing is that no matter what forces the Japanese sent to watch, even if they were Kamimur, after a couple of days they would have to leave the maximum anyway - the coal was over

                Some cruisers would leave, while others came that Japan has few cruisers?
                Second moment. How would Fersen know when they came and when they left? That's just the option with the pursuit of the Emerald at full speed - the most ridiculous. The Japanese would have burned the coal in pursuit and approached Vladivostok with empty pits - do they need it?
                But they refueled after Tsushima with coal, shells and went cruising - the most likely option.
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  7 May 2020 16: 48 New
                  +1
                  Quote: rytik32
                  Some cruisers would leave, while others came that Japan has few cruisers?

                  Enough. But Vladivostok has no special sense in organizing a permanent patrol - it was worth trying to catch the ships that go there after the battle, nothing more.
                  Quote: rytik32
                  How would Fersen know when they came and when they left?

                  When they could come, he knew approximately, since he believed that 6 cruisers went to Vladivostok from the place of the capitulation of the Russian squadron. And then his business was to ask for help - "Russia" would have coped with the release of the Emerald much better than the Emerald itself.
                  Quote: rytik32
                  That's just the option with the pursuit of the Emerald at full speed - the most ridiculous.

                  Yes, there was no such option. At the beginning of the flight, the emerald leaned toward the Japanese coast, that is, it went along an arc, and then lost its course - the Japanese managed to intercept it quite closely, following knots 14 or even less, but directly towards Vladivostok.
                  1. rytik32
                    rytik32 7 May 2020 16: 57 New
                    0
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Enough. But Vladivostok has no special sense in organizing a permanent patrol - it was worth trying to catch the ships that go there after the battle, nothing more.

                    Sense to block cruising against Japan. After all, Togo did not know where Oleg, Aurora and Pearls had gone. And together with the wok, they could completely ruin the Japanese communications.

                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    the Japanese had quite time to intercept him, following the knots so 14 or even less, but directly towards Vladivostok

                    Right. But the Japanese did not know that the Emerald was broken, so they decided that they had no chance to catch up.
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      7 May 2020 22: 55 New
                      +4
                      Quote: rytik32
                      Sense to block cruising against Japan.

                      The Japanese never made it a blockade at Vladivostok, even when they suffered from VOK.
                      Quote: rytik32
                      After all, Togo did not know where Oleg, Aurora and Pearls had gone.

                      So coal is not infinite. Or they appear at Vladivostok within a couple of days, or they will never be there again.
                      Quote: rytik32
                      Right. But the Japanese did not know that the Emerald was broken, so they decided that they had no chance to catch up.

                      And they didn’t go anywhere, of course. But Fersen could not know about it.
                      1. rytik32
                        rytik32 8 May 2020 23: 50 New
                        0
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        So coal is not infinite. Or they appear at Vladivostok within a couple of days, or they will never be there again.

                        Well, Enquist theoretically could load coal in Shanghai and try again in Vladivostok. The Japanese did not know about the real damage.
                      2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        8 May 2020 23: 54 New
                        +1
                        Sorry, what does the Enquist have to do with it?
    2. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 7 May 2020 22: 59 New
      0
      Quote: Nehist
      On 1 point. Even the officers and signalmen of the 1st TOE confused the silhouettes of Japanese ships, even though they saw them more than once before the war, this is a common problem

      To make a mistake with the silhouette once or twice this happens. But Fersen (and most importantly his signalmen) didn’t recognize anyone at all, as if they had chosen randomly from the list of the fleet. Someone from the pebbles mentioned in the testimony that they did not do training in intelligence at all. I even had doubts crept in, and were there any training in recognizing the Japanese in the 2nd TOE, or did you rely on newspaper clippings?

      The question is not abstract, if Ferzen determined exactly which enemy ships surround him and if he knew their technical characteristics, he would probably have made a decision on a breakthrough more calmly. I would understand that he was unlikely to catch up with him at 19 nodes. Could not tear the last veins from cars as much as 4.5 hours, you look and would keep full speed. It seems that it was just a weak knowledge of the enemy’s capabilities that laid down in the first paragraph the subsequent panic reactions of Ferzen to the situation.

      Quote: Nehist
      I wonder what could send a wok to the sea after the death of Rurik and who prevents the Japanese from strengthening the light cruisers of the DBK?

      Fersen, like Togo, also reliably knew only about the death of Rurik. Therefore, to send to Vladik in advance, Togo could only the whole detachment of Kamimura, no less. And he is needed to capture the remains of Russian armadillos and DBK. Togo, even his little dogs could not send without risk there, after all, Oleg and Aurora still dangled uncharted somewhere.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        8 May 2020 23: 55 New
        +2
        Lying like breathing.
        1. Comrade
          Comrade 9 May 2020 04: 01 New
          0
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Lying like breathing.

          He is not the first time.
        2. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 9 May 2020 20: 59 New
          0
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Lying like breathing.

          Is that all you managed to come up with? By the way, this is not even your article. Again that one .. laughing
      2. Comrade
        Comrade 9 May 2020 03: 59 New
        0
        Quote: Saxahorse
        Fersen, like Togo, also reliably knew only about the death of Rurik. Therefore, to send to Vladik in advance, Togo could only the whole detachment of Kamimura, no less.

        Man, you reason logically, but not true.
        Especially for you I am laying out the cruiser maneuvering scheme "Yoshino"during the shelling of Vladivostok (not to be confused with the" Asamoids "or" Garibaldians "). I draw your attention to the fact that the action took place in the spring of 1904, which means that the port is safe and sound" Russia "," Thunderbolt ", "Rurik" and "Bogatyr".

        Your hypothesis that, since the Japanese did not know about the Thunderbolt accident and the condition of the Bogatyr, it means that they would be afraid to send "dogs" there to intercept the Emerald, did not stand the test of historical facts.
        As you can see, not only deploying a patrol chain of light cruisers at a distance of several tens of miles from Vladivostok in order to capture Fersen, the Japanese did not hesitate to approach the city with 6 '' guns in front of the Vladivostok detachment of cruisers.
        1. Jura 27
          Jura 27 9 May 2020 05: 17 New
          0
          [/ quote] scheme for maneuvering the cruiser "Yoshino" during the shelling of Vladivostok [quote]

          What date was that?
          1. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 9 May 2020 21: 05 New
            0
            Quote: Jura 27
            What date was that?

            “On the night of May 15 [8], 1904,” - a white and fluffy one came to the small cruiser Yoshino in the form of a very hard stem of the armored cruiser Kasuga, maneuvering too vigorously in the fog. In general, this small cruiser fought for a very short time.
        2. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 9 May 2020 21: 07 New
          0
          Quote: Comrade
          Man, you reason logically, but not true.
          Especially for you I am spreading the scheme of maneuvering of the cruiser "Yoshino" during the shelling of Vladivostok

          Dear Valentine. As usual, you ignore the most important attributes in your links. For example, the date and time would very much help to understand how the impudent raid of the small cruiser Yoshino to Vladivostok in 1904 could have had a lot to do with the capture of Emerald, which at night in the fog successfully fired towards the city a couple of times ..
  • rytik32
    rytik32 6 May 2020 22: 51 New
    +1
    Fersen
    1. Break through and not give up - well done.
    2. I didn’t go to Vladivostok - it’s already passed my nerves. Objectively, to meet the Japanese, Vladivostok had practically no chance. In the comments, everything was laid out on shelves.
    3. Stranded - a navigation error due to extreme nervous tension.
    4. The ship blew up - this is obvious paranoia. The Japanese fleet would not even try to seize the ship - too risky. Maximum would have destroyed it with artillery.
    Now you can hit the balance of the pros and cons.
    1. Nehist
      Nehist 7 May 2020 01: 23 New
      +2
      This is now an afterthought, and then the meeting with the Japanese looked quite likely to recall Novik. The Japanese, while trying to capture, did not risk anything from the word at all. They just have nothing to oppose. I advise you to read what forces and how they captured Sakhalin
      1. rytik32
        rytik32 7 May 2020 06: 47 New
        0
        Quote: Nehist
        The Japanese, while trying to capture, did not risk anything from the word at all.

        I do not agree.
        There could be guns on the shore, so they covered Bogatyr.
        There could be mines at the entrance to the bay.
        And the Japanese were panicky afraid of submarines (but this is afterglow) ...
        1. Nehist
          Nehist 7 May 2020 07: 34 New
          +1
          Gg guns on the shore from where? Mines in the bay from where? Sorry, I live in the Far East and are interested in the history of the region. You just can’t understand one thing that sdes even now there are no normal roads, and even more so at that time. Can you ask how the team of Emerald in Vladivostok got !!! Mine Reed or Bussenar with their novels are resting! (unless of course you know these authors and read their works of art)
          1. rytik32
            rytik32 7 May 2020 08: 30 New
            -1
            Quote: Nehist
            guns on the shore from where?

            From the same emerald.
            Quote: Nehist
            Mines in the bay from where?

            This must be notified to the Vladivostok so that they come out and set up. But how can the Japanese know that there are no mines? What in Vladivostok do not know about the ship?
            Sorry, but you don’t have to portray the Japanese as they know and fear nothing.
            1. Nehist
              Nehist 7 May 2020 11: 05 New
              0
              Sorry, but I recommend you once again to read the materials as L / S of Emerald got to Vladivastok
  • Sergey S.
    Sergey S. 7 May 2020 02: 39 New
    +2
    I ask dear readers only one thing: let's be careful in evaluating certain actions of our ancestors.

    Once under Paul I, the post of historian of the fleet was introduced.
    This philanthropy was explained very simply - history is not entertainment, but the accumulation and comprehension of experience.
    Experience has been the main content of education for many years.
    These words are not a departure from the topic.
    These words are the key to understanding the function of the goal when discussing such problems.

    1. Patriotism, apparently, is understood by many different ways.
    Two opposite points of refraction of reality.
    The first is mine, which means the right and the best. If you argue so rudely, it is unlikely that many will agree with this.
    The second is mine, this is the native that I know best of all, but this is not the main thing. The main thing is that my future is the most correct and the best.
    My position protects the second.

    Another distraction.
    We have a "Tsushima society", that is, the descendants of the participants in the Tsushima battle. They are going to the Aurora.
    Conducting conferences ...
    I do not belong to them. My great-grandfather was near retirement age. he already had 7 children, he remained in the 18th carriage and retired in 1906. You could say lucky ...
    So, what are the Tsushima people talking about ... not all without exception, of course ... but ...
    Our ships were excellent, the sailors were the best ... It is not clear why the First Pacific did not lose a single battleship in the general battles, and the Second was completely defeated in addition to the Third. And entered world history as a participant in one of the three greatest naval battles, referring to the battle of Lepanto, Tsushima and Midway.
    Here we break the spears in a similar way.

    Add oil to the fire.
    You can still speculate about the permissibility to leave and disarm, as Enquist did ...
    One can recall the feat of the "Guardian", but from the very beginning, when he lagged behind the "Resolute", when sheaves of sparks from pipes in the night sky ...
    Let us also recall the "Terrible", who lost the detachment at night ....
    And also "Novik", which, I sincerely believe, would have broken through to Vladivostok if the required amount of coal had been correctly calculated in the last bunkering ...
    And, holy, S.O. Makarov, too, died not without sloppiness ... We looked through headquarters mine installations right under his nose ...
    I don't even want to remember about "Boyar" and "Yenisei" ...
    Such is our history of the fleet in the period before the collapse of a supposedly prosperous country.

    It is necessary to remember and know both good and bad, completely, without hiding the uncomfortable and woeful.
    That is how we can help young people not to make mistakes that have already been committed by someone.
    As for the assessment of Ferzen, here in assessing his actions it is better to forget about the existence of the theory of relativity.
    It is better to realize that tolerance for one’s own weaknesses is the path to trouble: you will lag behind, lose, die ..

    When the traditions of the Great Fleet of Empress Catherine the Great were alive, the following happened:
    On October 16, 1809, as a result of an error in receiving the turn signal, the 36-gun Nazareth frigate, under the command of Lieutenant Lange, separated from the detachment of Captain-Lieutenant Stuli, and with the dawn ended up among the ships of the Turkish squadron. Two large ships fired several ineffective shots at the frigate, and allowed the frigate to leave.
    In the report, Lieutenant Lange presented the incident as a feat, however, the investigation of the case showed that there was a commander’s confusion, readiness to surrender to the enemy, lack of proper discipline,
    quarrels and intrigues between commanders and officers. As a result, Lieutenant Lange was demoted to sailors.

    Conclusion: What are the traditions, such is the future.
    1. Nehist
      Nehist 7 May 2020 07: 37 New
      0
      I do not agree with you on everything. In many ways you are right ...
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      7 May 2020 12: 31 New
      0
      Quote: Sergey S.
      Our ships were excellent, the sailors are the best ...

      Everything is relative. Japanese EDBs were better. And our sailors were not trained enough - at least in the 1st TOE
      Quote: Sergey S.
      It’s just not clear why the First Pacific did not lose a single battleship in the general battles, and the Second, in addition to the Third, received a complete defeat

      The skill of the Japanese increased significantly in Tsushima compared to the battle in the Yellow Sea. And yes, ITOE did not conduct "general battles" with the Japanese - there was about a 1-minute battle of the main forces at the very beginning of the war, and the battle in ZhM - only the latter can be considered general.
      On the whole, I venture to say that if the Japanese maneuvered and fought in Tsushima just like in the Yellow Sea, the Russian squadron would have gone almost without loss to Vladivostok.
      Quote: Sergey S.
      You can still speculate about the permissibility to leave and disarm, as Enquist did ...

      The enquist, leaving, did not plan to disarm. On Manila he had no choice - he could no longer get out of there.
      Quote: Sergey S.
      And also "Novik", which, I sincerely believe, would have broken through to Vladivostok if the required amount of coal had been correctly calculated in the last bunkering ...

      Novik, as I understand it, bunkering, downloaded everything that he could download
      1. Nehist
        Nehist 7 May 2020 13: 29 New
        +3
        Dear Andrey! 1TOE was more alert than 2TOE! If the Japanese had become as close during the battle in the LM as under Tsushima, the result would have been different and most likely the YIF would cease to exist. Witgeft tactical replayed Togo constantly.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          7 May 2020 14: 38 New
          +2
          Quote: Nehist
          Dear Andrey! 1TOE was more alert than 2TOE!

          A lot less. As evidenced by the statistics of hits in Russian and Japanese ships in Tsushima and in battle in LM.
          Quote: Nehist
          If the Japanese had become as close during the battle in the LM as under Tsushima, the result would have been different and most likely the YaIF would cease to exist.

          The Japanese became closer, having reduced the distance from 2 to 40 cable ones in the second phase. Moreover, they were in a very bad position for an hour - while catching up with the Russian system. But with all this, the Japanese simply crushed Russian ships with fire - despite the ruptures of the trunks of 23 twelve-inch guns, they entered 5 heavy shells into Russian ships. The Russians were able to answer as many as 45 hits with shells - 6 mm and 4 mm.
          Quote: Nehist
          Witgeft tactical replayed Togo constantly

          Witgeft did not replay Togo. Witgeft used Togo's mistakes very correctly. The problem is that in ZhM Togo made a lot of mistakes, and in Tsushima it is much smaller, and not so significant. Moreover, it is possible that Rozhdestvensky nevertheless forced the main and almost the only one - the Loop of Togo - the latter
          1. ser56
            ser56 7 May 2020 15: 02 New
            +1
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            As evidenced by the statistics of hits in Russian and Japanese ships in Tsushima and in battle in LM.

            and compare the loss of Russian and Japanese in the Yellow Sea?
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              7 May 2020 15: 32 New
              +1
              Quote: ser56
              and compare the loss of Russian and Japanese in the Yellow Sea?

              Compare, only this is not a criterion.
              1. ser56
                ser56 7 May 2020 15: 39 New
                +2
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Compare, only this is not a criterion.

                Seriously? bully loss from hits, averaging of lakishots goes over time and squadron ships and not an indicator? bully Alas, you do not want to take arguments ... request in conclusion from the markedly greater (20%) loss of the Japanese in the BM one - the Russians got more request Which explains the opposition from reducing hits at a shorter distance hi
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  7 May 2020 16: 54 New
                  +1
                  Quote: ser56
                  loss from hits, averaging of lakishots goes over time and squadron ships and not an indicator?

                  No, this is not an indicator.
                  Quote: ser56
                  in conclusion from the markedly greater (20%) loss of the Japanese in the BM one - the Russians got more

                  The conclusion from the above is that someone misunderstood you. In ZhM, the Japanese lost 226 people killed and wounded, and in Tsushima - 700. Of these, 71 and 117 people were killed, respectively.
                  1. ser56
                    ser56 7 May 2020 17: 16 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    No, this is not an indicator.

                    serious argument bully
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Someone famously misinformed you

                    But why didn’t you bring the loss of Russian in the LM? hi 168 killed and wounded ... I note the loss of both sides purely from artillery fire, i.e. compare corny ... request
              2. rytik32
                rytik32 7 May 2020 15: 48 New
                0
                By the number of failed guns (including the ruptures of their shells), the picture will also not be in favor of the Japanese.
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  7 May 2020 16: 55 New
                  +1
                  Quote: rytik32
                  By the number of failed guns (including the ruptures of their shells)

                  They in 100% of cases came from the rupture of their own shells. Purely theoretically ... well, maybe in one case the Japanese were mistaken, but hardly
                  1. rytik32
                    rytik32 7 May 2020 17: 35 New
                    0
                    I will leave a link to readers https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/45919.html
                    Let them decide for themselves whether there was a shell from Tsesarevich
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      7 May 2020 22: 57 New
                      +2
                      Quote: rytik32
                      I will leave a link to readers https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/45919.html
                      Let them decide for themselves whether there was a shell from Tsesarevich

                      Well, a very decent approach, which I strongly welcome
          2. ser56
            ser56 7 May 2020 15: 06 New
            +2
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            and in Tsushima it is much smaller, and not so significant.

            he gave his chance, by crossing ZPR, to go to battle in the opposite courses and hit Kamimura, after which the combined fleet disintegrated and acted separately, as later .. hi
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            nevertheless Rozhdestvensky forced the latter

            even if so, then ZPR did not use the created chance, but created a bunch request
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              7 May 2020 16: 55 New
              +2
              Quote: ser56
              he gave his chance to cross the ZPR to fight on the opposite courses and hit Kamimura

              There wasn’t such a chance
              1. ser56
                ser56 7 May 2020 17: 21 New
                +2
                seriously - see the diagram - at the time of the turn-the Russians turn left, they diverge from Togo, Kamimura either gets on the Russian EDB during a sequential turn, or breaks the tactical connection with Togo ... request
                1. rytik32
                  rytik32 7 May 2020 18: 06 New
                  +1
                  I will support you.
                  I myself consider this option optimal. Plus, the concentration of fire at the end, for example, Nissin or Fuji could lead to their failure.
                  1. ser56
                    ser56 7 May 2020 20: 11 New
                    +2
                    Quote: rytik32
                    Plus the concentration of fire at the end, for example Nissin

                    exactly! drinks wand T, but over w .... rear matelot bully
                    moreover, from a fairly close distance - 38kab - 15 (the length of the Togo column at the speed of our 14kuz) = 23 hi ZPR got a terrible chance to become great, especially if 2 columns had the goal of maneuver of Togo, according to the author ... request
                2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  7 May 2020 23: 01 New
                  +2
                  Quote: ser56
                  seriously - see the diagram - at the time of turn -Russians turn left

                  And the head Suvorov blocks the fire, blocking the Japanese ships. Soon, only the ships that turned after him will be able to fire, so that Togo's loop flies away in vain. And Kamimura, seeing such a turn, leads his BRKR in the other direction (up to the turn, all of a sudden, "and instead of crossing, the Russians lose everything.
                  Worse still - Togo, having completed the first U-turn, once again turns left - and hello, crossing T to the Russian column!
                  1. ser56
                    ser56 8 May 2020 13: 51 New
                    0
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    And the head Suvorov blocks the fire, blocking the Japanese ships.

                    just for a short time and just a turning point, request the ships moving away from her - like on a platter ... bully

                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    so the loop of Togo flies away in vain.

                    squadrons diverge on counter-courses, time has passed - daylight saving time is won, 2OF is 12 miles closer to Vladik ... request Togo will be forced to either overtake the squadron out of contact in order to be wise again, or repeating Part 2 of Shatung is a good option ... hi
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    But Kamimura, seeing such a U-turn, leads his DBKR to the other side (all the way up to the turn

                    wonderful -stroy enemy fell apart and they act separately ...
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    turns left again - and hello, crossing T Russian column!

                    and the Russians are again maneuvering ... bully as a result, a series of short battles, and this is a big + for the Russians, because 1st battle voltage drops ... hi Yes, and the Japanese lose confidence ... Then twilight, 2TOE repels the attacks of MN a la 1 TOE and in the morning with Vladik, but there you can already take the fight ... bully
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      9 May 2020 12: 19 New
                      +1
                      Quote: ser56
                      just for a short time

                      all the time loops
                      Quote: ser56
                      squadrons diverge on counter-courses, time has passed - daylight saving time is won

                      laughing fool
                      Once again - Togo, completing the loop with the 1st armored detachment, turns left again and places the Russian column crossing T.
                      Do you fantasize further
                      1. ser56
                        ser56 9 May 2020 21: 49 New
                        0
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        for the entire loop

                        The maneuver itself is at least 10 minutes, then the signals for another maneuver, the other maneuver itself - everything happens not so fast request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        left and puts the Russian column crossing T.

                        this is if the Russian squadron follows one course and 9uz ... request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Do you fantasize further

                        it’s not a fantasy, but an analysis of possibilities hi
          3. Nehist
            Nehist 7 May 2020 15: 20 New
            0
            Dear Andrey! Do you understand that there is no military education at all? To use the opponent’s mistakes to your advantage is precisely alpha and omega tactics! What I wrote about above. Witgeft was a very good start. headquarters. By the will of fate, he was in the position of commander ... And it was under him that the fleet achieved maximum success in the REV.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              7 May 2020 15: 36 New
              +2
              Quote: Nehist
              To use the opponent’s mistakes to your advantage is precisely alpha and omega tactics!

              The question is not this, but if the enemy has not made a mistake, you cannot use this mistake. I do not have a military education.
              Quote: Nehist
              Witgeft was a very good start. headquarters.

              Quite a difficult question, not analyzed.
              Quote: Nehist
              By the will of fate, he was in the position of commander ... And it was under him that the fleet achieved maximum success in the REV.

              Thanks commander? Or is it contrary to that? The minzag commander nevertheless violated Witgeft’s order, and this was achieved success.
              But in ZhM - yes, I personally think that Witgeft maneuvered not only competently, but constantly found the best solution possible
              1. Nehist
                Nehist 7 May 2020 15: 45 New
                0
                Oh ... Andrey !!! Ivanov did not break the order !!! Cupid went exactly where and should go for setting mines!
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  7 May 2020 16: 56 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Nehist
                  Ivanov did not break the order !!! Cupid went exactly where and should go for setting mines!

                  Ivanov directly violated the order, it was discussed 100500 times already :)))) Violation of the order was mentioned in the report of Ivanov and in the report of Vitgeft to the governor.
                  1. ser56
                    ser56 7 May 2020 17: 27 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Violation of the order is said in the report of Ivanov, and in the report of Vitgeft to the governor.

                    otmazon, if the English TR ... bully you know the order for the observation post - there are 10 miles ... It's just that this order remained on the squadron ....
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      7 May 2020 23: 02 New
                      +2
                      Quote: ser56
                      otmazon if the English TR is blown up.

                      That no excuses will not ride. And yes, according to your VKV, he simply blamed the responsibility on his subordinate, afraid to take it upon himself.
                      1. ser56
                        ser56 8 May 2020 14: 00 New
                        0
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And yes, according to your VKV, he simply blamed the responsibility on his subordinate, afraid to take it upon himself.

                        it seems - yes! It doesn’t color him, but he was an experienced bureaucrat ... hi they will write off the performer’s excess, they will formally be punished, and then awarded ... laughing Yes, and your terms are not entirely accurate - not afraid, but prepared the options - a good staff ... request war is a way of deceit ... hi
              2. ser56
                ser56 7 May 2020 17: 25 New
                +1
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                if the opponent has not made a mistake, you cannot use this mistake

                everyone is always mistaken - war is a way of deception and fog ... request But mistakes become apparent when the adversary uses them ... hi
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Thanks commander? Or is it contrary to

                It's like - were there revolutionaries in the RIF? OR were orders not followed? What nonsense bully
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                The minzag commander nevertheless violated Witgeft’s order, and this was achieved success.

                you forgot about the order of the VKV to the observation post - there are 10 miles ... and even if you subtract the length of the MOH from the distance .... hi
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  7 May 2020 23: 03 New
                  +2
                  Quote: ser56
                  you forgot about the order of the VKV to the observation post - there are 10 miles

                  I did not forget, and quoted you sections from the rest of the orders that you yourself quoted :))))
                  Short memory you have
                  1. ser56
                    ser56 8 May 2020 14: 03 New
                    -1
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Short memory you have

                    By no means, I showed you the situation in dynamics - from the concept to the implementation, and you only see the finish detail ... request I repeat - already at the design stage, the VKV set a place at 10 miles, mines were put there - the rest is lyrics and bureaucracy ... bully I would like to reiterate that - the VKV correctly complies with the charter in the situation - requires each fulfillment of duties, unlike the COM, which replaced the subordinates ... hi
                    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      9 May 2020 12: 18 New
                      +1
                      Quote: ser56
                      I repeat - already at the design stage, the VKV set a place at 10 miles, mines were put there - the rest is lyrics and bureaucracy

                      And if the facts contradict your version of events - well, them, these facts :))))
                      1. ser56
                        ser56 9 May 2020 21: 47 New
                        0
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And if the facts contradict your version of events - well, them, these facts :))))

                        this is your path request the order for the NP was 10 ...
      2. Sergey S.
        Sergey S. 7 May 2020 13: 46 New
        -1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Novik, as I understand it, bunkering, downloaded everything that he could download

        Controversy on the topic in concrete facts is meaningless.
        I tried to convey exactly that.
        Here the idea of ​​achieving Victory in any conditions is important, as S.O. tried to act. Makarov.

        Novik accepted coal based on normal daily consumption to Vladivostok, bypassing Japan.
        And the real expense was 1,5 times more ...
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          7 May 2020 14: 40 New
          +1
          Quote: Sergey S.
          Novik accepted coal based on normal daily consumption to Vladivostok, bypassing Japan.

          No, he took an almost full supply, and, as I understand it, there was no other coal (but this is not accurate)
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 7 May 2020 17: 19 New
            +3
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            No, he took an almost full supply

            If in Port Arthur, then yes.
            Even on the eve of the departure to sea already decided by Rear Admiral V.K. Vitgeft, the cruiser fired at the coast. As a result, the personnel did not manage to take 80 tons of coal to the full volume.

            But there was still bunkering in Qingdao
            At 17 hours the ship entered Qingdao, but negotiations with the governor on the conditions for the cruiser to be in the neutral port were delayed. Only at 25 hours 20 minutes the team started loading. Due to the fact that Japanese ships could be on duty at the exit, it was necessary to go out to sea in the dark. Therefore, the bunkering was completed at 45 hours 3 minutes and after half an hour left the port. It was possible to take only 30 tons of coal. The slowness of the governor was expensive.
        2. Nehist
          Nehist 7 May 2020 15: 32 New
          0
          Well, with a broken refrigerator and having fresh water for boilers, of course, coal consumption will increase. Steam formation rates were cleared with fresh water and its efficiency is greater than that of salt
      3. ser56
        ser56 7 May 2020 15: 01 New
        +1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Japanese EDBs were better

        if not a secret - by what criterion? Borodinians are not any worse than Mikasa, and Fuji is any worse ... request
        GK guns we have are not wire, SK in the towers, electricity more ...
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        that if the Japanese maneuvered and fought in Tsushima in the same way as in the Yellow Sea -

        if Russian and further in the text ... request The VKV went to 13uz, gave 15 .. if ZPR had given 13uz when overtaking Oslyaby, there would be no heap, no rout ... request
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The enquist, leaving, did not plan to disarm.

        after studying the damage, a breakthrough was not possible, and Manila is more reliable than Shanghai ... request
        1. Nehist
          Nehist 7 May 2020 15: 38 New
          0
          We put the Borodin Towers twice inferior in rate of fire. The Japanese built their own EDB precisely under this theater, which made it possible to install a couple of extra 6 light bulbs and it was better to book ships. And on trifles there is generally a lot of things. In general, the ships on both sides are equal, but the use was significantly different
          1. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 7 May 2020 18: 14 New
            +1
            Quote: Nehist
            The Japanese built their own EDB precisely under this theater, which made it possible to install a couple of extra 6 light bulbs and it was better to book ships.

            The Japanese "built" only what the British could sell them, nothing more ....
          2. 27091965
            27091965 7 May 2020 21: 35 New
            +1
            Quote: Nehist
            We put the Borodin Towers twice inferior in rate of fire.


            I think you have come across this table of the rate of fire of the main caliber guns published in Russia.


            About the new battleships then just thought.
            1. Nehist
              Nehist 8 May 2020 01: 21 New
              0
              Not much misunderstanding of each other. It is actually about the SK guns that at that time were protected by the main weapons of the EDB, which actually showed the previous two wars, the Japanese-Chinese and the American-Spanish
          3. unknown
            unknown 7 May 2020 23: 28 New
            0
            A pair of extra 6 "guns is plus one gun in the side salvo." Askold "in the battle in the Yellow Sea did not have two 6" guns, one per side. This did not stop him.
            The Japanese, on average, have ledges in body weight from 10 to 20 kg. For them the 6 "shell was heavy. When the British got a 140 mm caliber, they switched to it. What is the prohibitive rate of fire?
        2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          7 May 2020 15: 43 New
          +2
          Quote: ser56
          if not a secret - by what criterion?

          Anyway.
          Quote: ser56
          Borodinians are not any worse than Mikasa, and Fuji is any worse ...

          Borodino-type EDBs were inferior to the Japanese battleships in speed, in armor, in the amount of weapons (except for Fuji), and in its quality (placing 152 mm guns in turrets did not justify itself, it was better in casemates, 305 mm guns seemed to have no half the rate of fire) - this is not counting the quality of the shells ...
          Quote: ser56
          The VKV went to 13uz, and gave 15 .. if ZPR had given 13uz when overtaking Oslyaby, there would be no heap or rout.

          We are not talking about Russians, but about Japanese. The speed of Russians here did not matter at all.
          In ZhM in the first phase, instead of a normal attempt to set up cross-dancing, he arranged dances at a great distance. In Tsushima, he did not do this, and the difference in speed 1 and 1 did not play here and could not play any role. In both cases, Togo blocked the way to Vladivostok and had an advantage in speed. It was he who chose the manner of battle, but in ZhM and Tsushima it was fundamentally different.
          1. ser56
            ser56 7 May 2020 16: 01 New
            +3
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Borodino-type EDBs were inferior to Japanese battleships in speed

            arguably, there were simply different test methods ... because Kamimura did not catch up with the wok request
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            in reservation

            1) is a casemate more secure for you than a tower? wink
            2) If you are about mm of armor, then the Japanese did not pierce the Russian belt, but Mikasa had a chip break ... request
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            the placement of 152-mm guns in the towers did not justify itself, in casemates it was better

            and therefore they began to be applied in large quantities in 1MV? bully
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            this is not counting the quality of the shells ...

            also an interesting question - like the Japanese didn’t penetrate our armor ... request
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Russian speed didn’t matter at all

            what nonsense bully go ZPR at 13uz, then after the turn of Mikas, an hour would go on the traverse of Suvorov request
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            difference in speed 1 and 2TOE

            13-9 = 1 - you have new arithmetic ... hi
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            and had an advantage in speed

            no against ZPR - Borodinians, Oslyabya and Sisoy could keep 14uz that ZPR did not select them in the squad and did not realize the opportunity - its cant ... request VKV tried to keep the maximum possible speed, ZPR - no!

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            she was fundamentally different.

            because the VKV parried his actions, and ZPR "tolerated" request
            1. Nehist
              Nehist 7 May 2020 16: 25 New
              0
              and therefore they began to be applied in large quantities in 1MV? bully (c) You are wrong !!! All battleships of the WWII anti-mine caliber were in casemates, the towers were distributed by WWII. On the last two points I agree.
              1. ser56
                ser56 7 May 2020 16: 35 New
                0
                Quote: Nehist
                You're not right!!! All battleships of the PMV anti-mine caliber were in casemates,

                Not at all - you were confused by the digital - 6 dm ... request At the EDB it was SK, not PMK! See predredredouy - everywhere SK in the towers request
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 7 May 2020 17: 28 New
                  +2
                  Quote: ser56
                  See predredredouy - everywhere SK in the towers

                  Firstly, not everywhere and not only. ("Efstathius", "Andrew the First-Called", French, Germans).
                  And secondly, progress does not stand still. And the towers got better ... eight-inch. But they were not bad in the REV.
                  And thirdly, six-inch towers brought to mind only in the 20s.
                  1. ser56
                    ser56 7 May 2020 20: 03 New
                    0
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    not everywhere and not only.

                    SK before in 1MV in casemates is no longer a trend ... request
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    six-inch towers brought to mind only in the 20s.

                    but they are no longer SK request
                    1. Senior seaman
                      Senior seaman 8 May 2020 08: 44 New
                      +1
                      Quote: ser56
                      SK before in 1MV in casemates is no longer a trend ..

                      I’ll tell you more, IC in PMV is not a trend at all :)
                      1. ser56
                        ser56 8 May 2020 13: 44 New
                        0
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        I’ll tell you more, IC in PMV is not a trend at all :)

                        I said about predredouts request
                      2. Senior seaman
                        Senior seaman 8 May 2020 18: 44 New
                        +1
                        But initially the conversation was about RYAV and specifically about "Tsarevich". And it is quite obvious that at that time, the location of the SC in the casemates looks more preferable. Basically, towers have only one advantage - large angles of fire. The rest are disadvantages.
                      3. ser56
                        ser56 8 May 2020 20: 34 New
                        0
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        In fact, towers have only one advantage - large firing angles

                        not so little ... request Well, ease of presentation ...
                      4. Senior seaman
                        Senior seaman 8 May 2020 20: 38 New
                        +1
                        In fact, this advantage is imaginary. Melnikov in "The Last Battleship of the Dotsushima Shipbuilding" writes about all this in great detail.
                      5. ser56
                        ser56 8 May 2020 21: 14 New
                        0
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Melnikov in

                        I respect him, but I don’t agree on this issue - the towers are better ... I agree that at this particular moment the RJVs were carried away by innovations, and the casemate EBR would be cheaper request Well no luck request
                      6. Senior seaman
                        Senior seaman 8 May 2020 21: 23 New
                        +1
                        None of the casemates failed from the fact that a fragment was stuck in his mother's pocket. To deploy a single gun, if electricity is lost, is easier than a tower.
                        If at least the Baltic Shipyard began to build battleships with a casemate SC of the "Potemkin" type, the project of which was, and did not wait until Lagan was born and the sent drawings were adapted to Russian realities ... in general, there are many nuances
                      7. ser56
                        ser56 8 May 2020 21: 47 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Not a single casemate failed from the fact that a fragment was stuck in his mother’s

                        It was decided by a banal-tarpaulin mamerin ... Can we compare the area of ​​embrasures? And how from one hit with the wok rumbled on the asamoid? request

                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        with a casemate SC of the "Potemkin" type, the project of which was, and did not wait

                        Quote: ser56
                        Our nuclear enthusiasts were carried away by innovations, and caseman EDB would be cheaper

                        you are breaking through the open door drinks technically, towers are simply better, but more complicated, more expensive, etc. request And for the RPE, Potemkin / Retvisan is definitely no worse ...
  • unknown
    unknown 7 May 2020 23: 22 New
    0
    "Dante Alighieri" had some medium-caliber artillery in the towers.
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    7 May 2020 17: 12 New
    +2
    Quote: ser56
    arguably, there were just different test methods ...

    Undoubtedly. Read any documents / reports - the best of Borodino (not all), according to senior officers, at best could give 15-16 knots maximum, and the Japanese without tension gave 15 knots squadron speed (which is significantly lower than the maximum)
    Quote: ser56
    ) is a casemate more secure for you than a tower?

    No, the tower is better. But the EDB does not consist of only 152 mm towers.
    Quote: ser56
    If you are talking about mm armor, then the Japanese did not penetrate the Russian belt, but Mikasa had a chip break ...

    178 mm. And so - the Russians shot armor-piercing, the Japanese - mostly high-explosive, how can you compare?
    Quote: ser56
    and therefore they began to be applied in large quantities in 1MV?

    Go crazy :))) name at least one British / German / French cruiser of the PMV era with 152 mm in the towers
    Quote: ser56
    also an interesting question - like the Japanese didn’t penetrate our armor ..

    I don’t know how many years it will take for you to understand one simple thing - the main thing in a shell is not a breakdown of armor, but the ability to incapacitate a warship. Japanese landmines effectively incapacitated our ships without breaking through armor. In general, if the Japanese had good armor-piercing shells, they would do better. But they were not there. Our BBs were bad in that, piercing the armor, they could not inflict noticeable damage in the armored space.
    Quote: ser56
    what nonsense - then bully go ZPR to 13uz, then after the turn of Mikas, an hour would go on the traverse of Suvorov

    Rave. When was the last time you looked at maneuvering schemes? Mikasa, if anything, turned on the sharp course angle of Suvorov. At 15 knots rude. What is the exit to the beam?
    Quote: ser56
    13-9 = 1 - you have new arithmetic ...

    I didn’t count anything at all. Listen, I respectfully, where did you see my calculation in one node? :))))

    Quote: ser56
    no against ZPR - Borodinians, Oslyabya and Sisoy could keep 14uz that ZPR did not allocate them to the squad and did not realize the opportunity - its a jamb

    They could keep 14 squadron nodes only in your imagination. And it was possible to isolate them in a separate detachment, just what would this have given given the fact that the Japanese were faster? Only one thing - a dedicated unit would be faster defeated.
    Quote: ser56
    VKV tried to keep the maximum possible speed, ZPR - no!

    And in your perception, this somehow broke into the advantage of the tactics of the VKV :)))) Alas, no.
    Quote: ser56
    because the VKV parried his actions, and ZPR "tolerated"

    Rozhdestvensky did not tolerate anything. He in my IMHO trapped the Japanese, forcing them to the loop, then tried to take advantage of the artillery, having achieved a good number of hits, and then, when the Japanese got out of the loop, he lay down with them on a parallel course. After which he was wounded and dropped out of command.
    There were no alternatives - all these "throws" invented by Kostenko were only harmful
    1. ser56
      ser56 7 May 2020 17: 53 New
      +2
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      the best of Borodino (not all) according to senior officers, at best, could give 15-16 knots maximum,

      Gribovsky gives other data ... bully I note that this would be enough to keep 14 bonds detachment ... request
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      Did you see my calculation in one node? :))))

      Ek you are not understanding - for you it makes no difference that 9uz that 13 laughing
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      But the EDB does not consist of only 152 mm towers.

      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      the casemates were better

      are you somehow confused ... or is the Fuji barbet better than the GK towers?
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      And so - the Russians shot armor-piercing, the Japanese - mostly high-explosive, how can you compare?

      land mines do not penetrate armor ... request Somehow further, all dreadnoughts were armed with BB request
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      British / German / French PMV-era cruiser with 152 mm towers

      fi, what an otmazon ... are we really talking about the Kyrgyz Republic? and SK of almost all the forerunners in the towers ... request
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      the main thing in the projectile is not a breakdown of the armor, but the ability to disable a warship.

      demagogy - tell this to the US Navy at the Pacific Fleet in the early to mid-20th century hi
      see above, the goal was always to break the belt to inflict catastrophic defeats ... request Bismarck did not pierce the belt, but to Scharnhost - yes! Both are sunk, but in different ways ...
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      Japanese landmines effectively disabled our ships,

      not at all - you are using the effects of concentrated fire! those. failure of tactics ... even modern MBTs will lose their combat effectiveness after a massive shelling of the MZK request
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      At 15 knots rude. What is the exit to the beam?

      Alas, you need to step by step ...
      1) turning leads to braking
      2) the ships quickly enough appeared on parallel courses and Mikasa overtook Suvorov, and then went ahead by 10 cabs! With a move difference of 5 knots, it took 10 minutes ... with a difference of 1 knots - it took an hour - is that affordable?

      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      And it was possible to isolate them in a separate detachment, just what would this give given the fact that the Japanese were faster? Only one thing - a dedicated unit would be faster defeated.

      I understand that you read the VIL ... bully
      1) A detachment of 6 high-speed vessels would speed up the organization and maneuvering in battle for the Russians, taking into account the death of Felkersam, and he fell ill for a long time.
      2) If the detachment is faster, does it mean it’s broken faster? you have a strange logic - in ZhM Russian it was much harder to break into 13uz, and by 15 bonds Togo might not have caught up ...
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      it somehow broke into the advantage of the tactics of the VKV :)))) Alas, no.

      it’s a pity that you don’t understand the basics of tactics - the VKV organized the beating of Mikasa in the second stage of the battle! If he had held 2uz - this would not have happened ... request It seems to be on the surface, but you don’t understand ...
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      then he tried to realize the advantage of artillery,

      is it creating a bunch? And without letting the best shooter shoot - Oslyabya?
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      lay down with them on a parallel course

      not at all - at the expense of speed, he made it possible to mass the fire and shoot his ships!
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        7 May 2020 23: 21 New
        +2
        Quote: ser56
        Gribovsky gives other data ...

        Which battleship he served on? :))) And yes, Gribovsky for me, alas, is not an authority - he fantasized too much in his works.
        Quote: ser56
        Ek you are not understanding - for you it makes no difference that 9uz that 13

        When the enemy has 15-16, there is no difference.
        Quote: ser56
        you are somehow confused ...

        No. You are simply unfamiliar with the reservation schemes. You see neither the weakness of the side booking, nor the bevels, nor the protection of the main team
        Quote: ser56
        or is Fuji Barbet better than GK towers?

        We compared Borodino with Mikasa :)))
        Quote: ser56
        fi, what an otmazon ... are we really talking about the Kyrgyz Republic? and SK of almost all the forerunners in the towers ...

        Only now you have forgotten that the "medium caliber" of pre-dreadnoughts is 194 mm and higher. This clearly needs a tower - to protect the feed and loading mechanisms. But the mine-action caliber of dreadnoughts in casemates is almost everywhere.
        Quote: ser56
        demagogy - tell this to the US Navy at the Pacific Fleet in the early to mid-20th century

        No, Sergey, it’s your demagogy of pure water - you’re trying to compare dreadnoughts with armadillos (!) And you clearly don’t understand what happened in the USA in the early to mid-20th century. In general, it’s not worth it, you would have mastered the RSF :))
        Quote: ser56
        not at all - you are using the effects of concentrated fire! those. failure of tactics ...

        I use the damage analysis of the same Eagle, for example.
        Quote: ser56
        Alas, you need to step by step ...
        1) turning leads to braking
        2) rather quickly, the ships were on parallel courses

        Do not write nonsense, please. The Japanese ships were in fact unfolding, and no exit to the beam occurred, although the Russians went in a straight line. And I will not even talk about turning radii and speed loss in numbers - I already did this in one of my articles.
        Quote: ser56
        A squad of 6 high-speed vessels would speed up the organization and maneuvering in battle for the Russians

        I won’t even ask what prompted you to such a crazy conclusion.
        Quote: ser56
        If the detachment is faster, then it means it’s broken faster? you have a strange logic - in ZhM Russian it was much more difficult to break into 13uz,

        It’s not for me it’s strange. It’s you who entered into your head that 13 VKV knots became a decisive factor in the battle - and the Japanese fell less and in general :)))) This is nonsense, I will report to you, but I'm already tired of convincing you with examples in this.
        It seems that he explained everything in the previous discussion about Ivanov and the VKV, like you even began to understand something - and now, the new article - it all cut off.
        Quote: ser56
        not at all - at the expense of speed, he made it possible to mass the fire and shoot his ships!

        If the Russians went at 13 knots, Togo would have turned a little earlier than in the Republic of Ingushetia, that's all. And it would be all the same.
        1. ser56
          ser56 8 May 2020 21: 07 New
          -1
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          And yes, Gribovsky for me, alas, is not an authority

          I have his book on Borodino, very good! I haven’t seen yours - do not voice the output?
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          when the enemy is 15-16 - there is no difference.

          wrong, tactical value has an advantage of 3 or more bonds.
          and Togo’s speed of 16 knots from the fantasy realm .. request
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          You are unfamiliar with reservation schemes.

          not at all! everything is relative request Compare the booking of Fuji and Suvorov? Mikasa is slightly better armored, but not fundamentally ... request
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          We compared Borodino with Mikasa :)))

          did Togo have 4 mikasoids? new, fresh ... bully
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          that the "medium caliber" of pre-dreadnoughts is 194 mm and above.

          So what? it's just the development of the UK, which led to its destruction, but the trend is just a transition to the towers ... request
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          that was in the same USA in the beginning and mid-20th century. In general, it’s not worth it, you would have mastered the RSF :))

          you have false information about the level of my knowledge on this issue ... just read the thread on Tsushima - I gave ... bully But this is the lyrics related to the fact that you fell for stupid things ...... request
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          You climb to compare dreadnoughts with armadillos (

          let's call them battleships ... bully in any case, BBs were the main projectile that in the 19th, that in the 20th century request
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          and no exit to the beam occurred, although the Russians were walking in a straight line

          those. Mikasa did not overtake Suvorov and there was no concentration of fire on the latter? bully
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          I won’t even ask what prompted you to such a crazy conclusion.

          commonplace - Togo's actions ... hi In addition, it is reasonable! divide the EDB into units by speed and quality of artillery ... But for you this is nonsense ... bully And finally, the enemy has 2 detachments - it is reasonable to make 2 of his own with close forces - the ZPR had enough EDB, BBO and BRKR for this ...
          In my opinion, the construction is ideal: Borodin, Oslyaba, Sisoy (20 * 12dm + 4 * 10dm = 24 guns of the main gun) and IN1, Navarin, Nakhimov and 3 BBO (6 * 12dm, 11 * 10dm, 2 * 229, 6 * 8dm = 25 guns GK)
          In the case of a call to 2TOE VOK, the latter can be used to strengthen the old people, but to individual units .....
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          but I’m already tired of convincing you with examples of this.

          This is understandable - you have lyrics, but I have facts request If VKV went to 9 knots, like ZPR, then de facto Mikasa’s failure would not be request But for you it is difficult, as well as the fact that there is no current, that with a smaller number of hits the Russians have more dead and wounded request Funny is not it? hi
          And this is with the worst Russian shells, in your opinion ...
          it turns out that the shells are worse, they hit less (at close range, at great distance), and the enemy’s losses are greater ... just mysticism ... bully
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Togo would have turned a little earlier than in RI, that's all. And it would be all the same.

          sad with you - you do not know how to work with facts request If ZPR went to 13 knots, then there would be no heap and Togo would have less time to maneuver the turn - the battle would go on completely differently, Mikas could withstand the concentrated Borodin fire for another 15 minutes - this is a question ...
        2. rytik32
          rytik32 8 May 2020 21: 50 New
          0
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          If the Russians went at 13 knots, Togo would have turned a little earlier than in the Republic of Ingushetia, that's all. And it would be all the same.

          If the Russians went 13 knots and conducted reconnaissance with cruisers and prevented the reconnaissance of the Japanese and skillfully maneuvered, then May 14 would not even have reached the battle. Although 13 knots is too much, in reality the squadron could go 12 maximum (without transports and Don). Japanese 15. With 3 knots the difference is not easy to catch on the high seas.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            8 May 2020 22: 00 New
            +1
            Quote: rytik32
            If the Russians went 13 knots and conducted reconnaissance by cruisers and prevented the reconnaissance of the Japanese

            The Russians did not have such cruising forces that could impede the intelligence of the Japanese
            Quote: rytik32
            then May 14 wouldn’t even get to the battle

            In theory, this is possible. Then the battle would have taken place on May 15, after the Russian squadron was weakened by a sleepless night and attacks by destroyers.
            1. rytik32
              rytik32 8 May 2020 23: 23 New
              +1
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              The Russians did not have such cruising forces that could impede the intelligence of the Japanese

              Well, chasing all sorts of XXX Maru or Izumi is enough for our cruisers. While the scout will move to a strong detachment ... while the Japanese detachment will pursue (and there is no speed superiority!) Our cruisers and not the fact that towards the main forces ... In general ... you can win a few hours.
            2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              9 May 2020 12: 14 New
              0
              Quote: rytik32
              Well, chasing all sorts of XXX Maru or Izumi is enough for our cruisers.

              Let's look at real events. Izumi, our cruisers could well drive away or even knock out and destroy, with great luck. But that would not have changed anything (although I consider the rejection of an attempt to destroy Izumi to be Rozhdestvensky’s mistake).
              In the future, the 5th, 6th and 3rd combat units approached our squadron - the Russian cruisers could no longer drive them away.
              Quote: rytik32
              .. In general ... you can win a few hours.

              You can not.
            3. rytik32
              rytik32 9 May 2020 22: 03 New
              0
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Later on, the 5th, 6th and 3rd combat units approached our squadron

              And now the question is backfill: where should the 5th, 6th and 3rd units go if they have no contact with the squadron and only have data two hours ago from Izumi? At the point where the squadron should be at the same heading and speed? But if the Russian admiral is not, she will not be there!
              What to do? Fanning the sea? Russian cruisers do not allow to disperse!
              And the most important question. Where to go at this time? By the way, upon the fact of Togo’s maneuvers after the discovery of our squadron, they were as simple as 3 kopecks:
              1. Cross the course.
              2. Go on rapprochement.
              3. Cover the head.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 7 May 2020 18: 18 New
    +1
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    178 mm. And so - the Russians shot armor-piercing, the Japanese - mostly high-explosive, how can you compare?

    Judging by the remains of ammunition in the cellars of the "Eagle", the Russians still fired with land mines
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      8 May 2020 10: 11 New
      +1
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Judging by the remains of ammunition in the cellars of the "Eagle", the Russians still fired with land mines

      The Russians did not have land mines in the classical sense of the word. By design, our landmines were, in fact, the same armor-piercing with a slightly increased amount of explosives. And the fuse was like on a BB.
  • unknown
    unknown 7 May 2020 22: 50 New
    +1
    The French had enough armadillos and armored cruisers who carried medium caliber in the towers. Only this is not 152 mm, but 164 mm.
    Medium caliber in the towers - for "knockdown" combat. For linear combat, it is not that it is not suitable, but it does not show any advantages either.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      8 May 2020 10: 12 New
      +1
      Quote: ignoto
      The French had enough armadillos and armored cruisers who carried medium caliber in the towers. Only this is not 152 mm, but 164 mm.

      In the years of the REV, yes. But the French did not fight, and therefore could not check their ships.
  • rytik32
    rytik32 8 May 2020 13: 00 New
    +1
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Undoubtedly. Read any documents / reports - the best of Borodino (not all), according to senior officers, at best could give 15-16 knots maximum, and the Japanese without tension gave 15 knots squadron speed (which is significantly lower than the maximum)

    I read these tales.
    Testimony of the former Commander of the 2nd Pacific Squadron, Vice Admiral, retired Rozhestvensky.
    "On May 14, the new battleships of the squadron could develop up to 13½ knots, and others from 11½ to 12½
    "Navarin" could not develop more than 12, and the third detachment had a top speed of 11½ knots "
    But in fact 3 how much could the squad give?
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      8 May 2020 22: 01 New
      +1
      Quote: rytik32
      But in fact 3 how much could the squad give?

      And in fact 3 the detachment did not keep up with the main forces marching at 9-11 knots
      1. rytik32
        rytik32 8 May 2020 23: 39 New
        +1
        And did not have much time? Any speed data?
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          9 May 2020 12: 05 New
          +1
          Quote: rytik32
          And did not have much time?

          You read the reports of the officers who participated in the Tsushima battle.
          1. rytik32
            rytik32 9 May 2020 22: 36 New
            0
            A report from Michman Rozhdestvensky.
            K.-a. Nebogatov, even before the battle semaphore on "Nakhimov": "if you are behind, I will overtake you and take your place," ahead of the II armored squad at the beginning of the 4th hour
            Testimony of Lieutenant Ovander.
            At the same time, the squadron battleship “Nikolay I”, having failed to the left, increased its speed, began to bypass the vessels, which showed that he wanted to take the lead in the convoy after the failure of the squadron battleship “Suvorov”.
            Testimony of Michman Messer.
            After the failure of the Oslyaby, the sequence in the line of armadillos is violated. III armored squad moves forward and follows the first, and the second enters the tail of the column.

            From these reports, it doesn’t turn out that the 3rd detachment didn’t have time. On the contrary, the 3rd detachment rushed forward.
            Andrey, please clarify your position on the backlog of 3 squads.
  • unknown
    unknown 7 May 2020 22: 45 New
    +1
    Kamimura did not catch up because the Azuma did not go more than 15 knots for a long time.
    Bad type who just got lucky.
  • unknown
    unknown 7 May 2020 22: 42 New
    +1
    EBRs of the Borodino type were formally inferior in speed to 0,4 knots. In fact, they did not yield. "Fuji" did not go more than 15 knots during the years of the RYAV. If Mikasa had an overload of three thousand tons, then what real speed could it give in Tsushima?
    In booking, the Borodino type surpassed all Japanese battleships, except for the Mikasa.
    Only he carried the Krupp armor. "Asahi" and "Shikishima" are harvey. "Fuji" - unarmored extremities, outdated main caliber mountings, medium caliber, for the most part, is not covered by armor. In fact, it was worse than the Petropavlovsk type.
    And the main caliber artillery of the Japanese battleships is a special issue. Long before the REV, the British were faced with gun ruptures. Wire construction. For nothing, they used shells filled with black powder in Jutland.
    Possessing knowledge of the quality of guns to think of equipment for shells with leaddite?
    Mythical shimoza, and even with the transcendental content of explosives? Shells of one battle. Checked. refused.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      7 May 2020 23: 22 New
      +2
      Quote: ignoto
      In fact, they did not yield. "Fuji" did not go more than 15 knots during the RYAV years

      And how is a column of Japanese battleships periodically accelerated to 16 knots ...
      1. rytik32
        rytik32 8 May 2020 14: 17 New
        0
        Where does the information on 16 nodes come from? I met 15 nodes for a Togo squad.
  • unknown
    unknown 7 May 2020 23: 16 New
    0
    How did Japanese skill grow in Tsushima? A giveaway game, the speed of the artillery shield, which allowed the Japanese to concentrate fire on the lead ship. So you can do without the mythical "shimose" shells.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 7 May 2020 12: 40 New
    +3
    Quote: Sergey S.
    And, holy, S.O. Makarov, too, died not without sloppiness ... We looked through headquarters mine installations right under his nose ...

    Which staff? Makarov, by virtue of his seething nature, did not have a normal headquarters, for he tried to get into everything himself. As a result, the staff were sure that the admiral himself controlled everything.
    If anyone is guilty of the death of Makarov from the Russian side, it is Makarov himself.
    1. Stereotyped actions during the approach of the Japanese squadron - maneuvering along the "eight". That is why the Japanese were able to accurately place mine cans on the arcs of the "eight".
    2. An error with an unsubmitted order to check the place of night detection of suspicious ships (since Makarov took responsibility for everything himself, then instead of an indefinite one)should be wiped in the morning“it was necessary to issue a clear and clear order.) Moreover, in the morning it was already clear that these ships could not be their own - their MMs broke through to the harbor only in the morning.
    3. Leapfrog with the dispatch of the KR to the aid of the MM: instead of the "Diana" on duty, the "Bayan" standing on the inland roadstead was sent ("Diana" went to sea only after the "Bayan"). While he was leaving and approaching the battlefield, everything was already over, and reinforcements (the Dev squad) began to approach the Japanese CD. Yes, "Bayan" was undoubtedly stronger than the "sleepy goddess". But then it was necessary to ensure his quick exit, or even to appoint the duty of the CD.
    4. Division of the squadron. Due to his fervor, Makarov did not wait for the release of all EBRs and went to the aid of Bayan with what had already been released: Petropavlovsk, Poltava, Askold, Novik. And flew with all this (plus the previously released "Diana" and "Bayan") directly to the main forces of Togo. It is also good that Togo's plans included driving the EBR 1 TOE into a minefield, and not a battle with part of the Russian forces (although there were only 38 KBt from Mikasa to Diana). So Makarov was carefully driven to Port Arthur, where he again ordered to maneuver in the eight, standing at the head of the EBR column and leading it straight to the mines.
    1. Nehist
      Nehist 7 May 2020 13: 31 New
      +3
      Oh yes ... Makarov nukralesil nobly ... One not ensuring the release of the destroyers was worth an armadillo, destroyer and battleship in repair
    2. Sergey S.
      Sergey S. 7 May 2020 13: 50 New
      0
      Quote: Alexey RA
      If anyone is guilty of the death of Makarov from the Russian side, it is Makarov himself.

      In principle, I agree.
      The night before S.O. Was on "Diana", which is practically a guardhouse ...
      From her they saw the flame from the pipes ... But for some reason they decided that they were our destroyers ("Terrible"), who had not returned from reconnaissance. And the Japanese were laying mines ...
    3. ser56
      ser56 7 May 2020 15: 10 New
      +2
      Quote: Alexey RA
      If anyone is guilty of the death of Makarov from the Russian side, it is Makarov himself.

      exactly!
      Quote: Alexey RA
      That is why the Japanese were able to accurately place mine cans on the arcs of the "eight".

      and VKV answered them the same! bully
      Quote: Alexey RA
      4. Separation of the squadron.

      1) add a ban on repair 10uz cripples
      2) the prohibition of EQA operations south of Henzan, i.e. on communication to Japan request
      3) imitation of activity by searching for MN, and obviously weaker units, hence their death ... request
      4) the death of Petropavlovsk
      and conclusion - contributed to the defeat in the war, but the hero and the monument hi and VKV is forgotten ...
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 7 May 2020 16: 00 New
        +3
        Quote: ser56
        and VKV answered them the same!

        Not otherwise, the dullness of reason on Togo found. He had just caught the enemy on the stereotyped actions - and he himself did the same.
        Quote: ser56
        and VKV is forgotten ...

        Not just forgotten. In the story of the undermining of two Japanese EDBs, the VKV is also reproached for not having led a squadron and rushed to finish off the enemy. Despite the fact that the horns and legs remained from the squadron through the efforts of previous commanders.
        "Retvizan" - under repair - without a bow BShGK, the guns in which were installed only on May 15, armor - a week later, the caisson was removed only on May 23.
        "Tsesarevich" - under repair - the last sheet was delivered on May 20, and the caisson was removed on May 24.
        "Victory" is under repair - it was blown up on the same obstacle as "Petropavlovsk", having received a hole of 7 x 5 meters, the repair was completed only on June 8, 2 days before the first departure of Witgeft's squadron to sea.
        "Sevastopol" - under repair:
        The lack of a dry dock in Port Arthur capable of accepting armadillos (the existing one had too narrow gates, as well as insufficient water depth at the entrance) forced the blades to be replaced afloat using a bell-caisson. The work was completed only on May 15, but before the death of S.O. Makarov, who did not want to disable a valuable combat unit, did not start repairs, and Sevastopol was twice more involved in the squadron exits, although its speed after the accident was limited to 10 knots. During this repair, the right car was finally sorted out.

        And only "Poltava" and "Peresvet" remain with VKV. Moreover, already partially disarmed:
        The crew of Poltava equipped and serviced a 4-gun 152-mm battery on Perepelinaya Gora, and the Sevastopol team was responsible for the two-gun 152-mm battery at a height of “218 soot.” peninsula of Liaoteshan.

        By order of the squadron chief on April 25, 4 x 152 mm Pobeda guns went to the Corner Mountain, 6 x 75 mm - to fortification No. 5 and Kurgan battery, 4 x 152 mm Peresvet - to Liaoteshan. Along with the guns, the crews and officers left. As a result, for example, on "Peresvet" there was only one artillery officer out of 3 in the state.

        Yes, and the withdrawal of the EBR from the harbor was an unusual task: for the squadron to leave the harbor, high tide was required (remember how the Peresvet ran aground on March 31) and 2-3 hours, and the squadron withdrawn ahead of time could frighten off the Japanese.

        Giggles ... I found my old posts from the discussion on Makarov on "Snowballs" in 2008 - and I was not too lazy then to delve into the literature. laughing
        1. ser56
          ser56 7 May 2020 16: 18 New
          +2
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Not otherwise, the dullness of reason on Togo found.

          everyone is mistaken, but in the case of Togo he had an explanation - the Russians behaved passively and was in neutral waters, but COM missed the lights in the raid ... request
          Quote: Alexey RA
          VKV also reproach

          1) you precisely noted it request he was not awarded a reward for drowning the EBR, although he gave the order .. request
          2) and I’ll supplement your list - the raid is mined, to conduct a large trawl - to frighten off ... although with the existing 2 EDBs in the ranks there is no sense ... request

          Quote: Alexey RA
          I was too lazy then to delve into the literature.

          youth laughing I was hanging around on Tsushima ... hi
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 7 May 2020 17: 37 New
            +2
            Quote: ser56
            everyone is mistaken, but in the case of Togo he had an explanation - the Russians behaved passively and was in neutral waters

            That is yes. Even VKV did not expect such activity from subordinates. smile
            Quote: ser56
            2) and I’ll supplement your list - the raid is mined, carry out a large trawl - frighten off ...

            Oh, for sure - and that too.
            Quote: ser56
            youth laughing I was hanging around on Tsushima ...

            So I hung around there too. Old Tsushima on the board, even before Brummel left ... multi-meter sheets with evidence that "Sevastopol" is the coolest, kind and attentive members of the forum, who once suggested organizing one criticism of "the excessive passivity of the Russian submarine fleet in the RYA" exit to the Baltic on a small submarine - in the fall, on the surface, in the wheelhouse, tying it to the fence for humanity. smile
            1. ser56
              ser56 7 May 2020 20: 06 New
              +1
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Old Tsushima on the board

              I was not her from the very beginning almost, and now I go once a year ... repeat
              Quote: Alexey RA
              "Sevastopol" is the coolest

              good EDB, but it took a long time to build and in vain replaced 8dm .......
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Even the VKV did not expect any activity from subordinates

              delusion hi in the first observation order, the VKV clearly indicated 10 miles ... request
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                7 May 2020 23: 23 New
                +2
                Quote: ser56
                in the first observation order, the VKV clearly indicated 10 miles ...

                Canceling this in subsequent orders
                1. ser56
                  ser56 8 May 2020 14: 05 New
                  0
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Canceling this in subsequent orders

                  There was no direct cancellation, there were bureaucratic subtleties ... I note, you stubbornly ignore the length of the MOH ... wink
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    9 May 2020 12: 00 New
                    +1
                    Quote: ser56
                    there was no direct abolition; there were bureaucratic subtleties.

                    There were no bureaucratic subtleties, there was a new order (which, as you know, cancels the previous one)
                    Quote: ser56
                    I note, you stubbornly ignore the length of the MOH ...

                    Because it does not matter. Try to prove the opposite? :)))
                    1. ser56
                      ser56 9 May 2020 21: 45 New
                      0
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      there was a new order (which, as you know, cancels the previous one)

                      the new one was not NP hi
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Try to prove the opposite? :)))

                      you are not careful - I said earlier that I can’t do a gasket ... recourse
  • Comrade
    Comrade 7 May 2020 04: 51 New
    +2
    Dear Andrew,
    it's hard to disagree with many of your thoughts, but here we have a special case, here you can not do without a magnifying glass :-)
    For some reason, a man climbed into the bay, put the cruiser on stones, blew it up, and he was rewarded.
    Due to lack of time, I am forced to comment on only a few places from your work.

    [Quote]What always surprised me was the tendency of my fellow citizens to be extremely harsh, if not a harsh assessment of the actions of our ancestors[/i.BIZ.[/quote]

    Perhaps this is because the award of Fersen with a golden weapon “For Courage” causes irritation for many, including your humble servant. In parentheses, I note that Rudnev’s bones would not have been washed, if he hadn’t written in his reports what we discussed many times.
    It is also annoying that Vasily Nikolayevich sometimes used some words explicitly with the aim of impressing the reader reading his report.
    No "breakthrough"there was no," Emerald "just rushed away in the complete absence of resistance, which implies the word itself"breakthrough". In any case, the Japanese did not shoot at the Emerald.

    "Pursuit"which Fersen, as he put it, was" squeezed "to the Japanese shores?
    His lone pursuer was so far away that Fersen could see nothing but smoke. And how can someone he doesn't even see Fersen "squeeze out"?
    Here is "Askold", that yes. This cruiser on July 28 really went for a breakthrough and broke through. But was the commander of the cruiser Grammators awarded the golden weapon "For Bravery" for the fact that he managed to break into the open sea on a seriously damaged ship instead of returning to Port Arthur?

    [Quote]Firstly, V.N. Fersen writes that during the chase “I have an insignificant, but still an advantage in the course”. [/ Quote]

    "Emerald" gave 21 knots, "Chitose" could not develop more than seventeen. Four knots, is this a "minor advantage"?
    Fersen is getting miserable;
    Togo had such an advantage in the battle at Cape Shantung, Togo had such an advantage in the outbreak of the Tsushima battle, and it hardly seemed "insignificant" to the Japanese (and Russian) commander.

    [Quote]Let us nevertheless apply the very presumption of innocence and consider whether it is possible that the error in identifying Japanese ships is not related to the unprofessionalism of the commander of the Emerald.[/ Quote]
    I can’t believe it, dear colleague, that during the Tsushima battle, Fersen never looked towards the armadillos of Togo through binoculars or a telescope. As well as the fact that the distance at which he could do this was so great that he could not make out how many Japanese pipes there were, two or three.
    [Quote] V.N. Fersen at the beginning of his breakthrough saw the Japanese cruisers both to their right and to their left[I]
    [Quote]
    Here is the Meiji circuit, which is very different from Fersen's.

    Sorry for the look of my comment, some kind of glitch on the site.
    1. Nehist
      Nehist 7 May 2020 07: 43 New
      +1
      Good day, dear Valentin. (Not mistaken?) Despite the confusion of your comment, I agree in many ways. By the way, the Askold commander is one of not many who complied with the order of VITGEFT-V ARTHUR DO NOT RETURN! In case of impossibility of a breakthrough, intern in neutral ports. Unfortunately, we often make heroes from those for whom the rope is crying (this does not apply to Frezen) Alas, charters require one thing, but the situation in battle dictates another ...
      1. Macsen_wledig
        Macsen_wledig 7 May 2020 18: 23 New
        +1
        Quote: Nehist
        By the way, the Askold commander is one of not many who complied with the order of VITGEFT-V ARTHUR DO NOT RETURN!

        The point is not at all about Cap-1 Grammatchikov, but that Rear Admiral Reicenshtein tritely escaped from the battlefield ...
        1. Nehist
          Nehist 8 May 2020 01: 04 New
          0
          Hmm ... Reicenshtein did what any normal commander would do, tried to lead the squadron along with him twice !!! Seeing the chaos that was happening, he acted very reasonably and went on a breakthrough alone with cruisers, and as we see from what turned out to be right !!!
          1. Macsen_wledig
            Macsen_wledig 8 May 2020 17: 42 New
            0
            Quote: Nehist
            Hmm ...

            You would first read the descriptions of the battle, made by the officers of "Askold", and then write something. :)
      2. Comrade
        Comrade 8 May 2020 00: 24 New
        +1
        Hello, Alexander.
        Quote: Nehist
        Despite the confusion of your comment

        It is what it is.
        Quote: Nehist
        Unfortunately, we often make heroes from those for whom the rope is crying (this does not apply to Frezen)

        Yes, there is.
        There is also a milder option. I have a guide to Soviet fighter pilots, the period from the Civil War to the war in Korea is covered.
        It turns out that among the eminent and illustrious fighter pilots there are those whose victories are not documented, that is, they were counted downed aircraft only on the basis of an oral statement.
        And there are pilots, almost without awards, but the list of victories won by them, confirmed by documents, is very impressive.
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      7 May 2020 11: 33 New
      +1
      Good afternoon, dear Valentine!
      Quote: Comrade
      here we have a special case, here you can’t do without a magnifying glass :-)

      And let's :))))
      Quote: Comrade
      For some reason, a man climbed into the bay

      So he did not have enough coal until the morning.
      Quote: Comrade
      It is also annoying that Vasily Nikolayevich sometimes used some words explicitly with the aim of impressing the reader reading his report.

      Let's see which ones
      Quote: Comrade
      There was no "breakthrough", the "Emerald" simply rushed away in the complete absence of resistance, which implies the very word "breakthrough"

      I do not argue :) But the fact is that V.N. Fersen, neither in his report, nor in the testimony of the Investigative Commission, did not use the word "breakthrough" in relation to the actions of his cruiser on 15 May.
      Quote: Comrade
      The "chase" by which Fersen, as he put it, "was driven" to the Japanese shores?

      What is wrong with her?
      Quote: Comrade
      His lone pursuer was so far away that Fersen could see nothing but smoke. And how can someone he doesn't even see Fersen "squeeze out"?

      There are three aspects to this.
      The Japanese in the official Meiji say that at first the entire 6th detachment went after the Emerald, but soon stopped the pursuit and only Akitsushima and Chitose followed the Emerald. If we assume that at the beginning of the chase the distance between the Emerald and the 6th squad was 6 miles, and they chased it for 40 minutes at a speed of 14 knots (first - the whole squad, then one Akitsushima), it would be visible from the Emerald "no less than an hour.
      The emerald began to leave after 10.30 (at 10.30 I saw a signal to surrender, while I made up my mind, while I fired up the cars until full speed had passed), and it turns out that he could lose sight of the Japanese cruisers (but see their smoke) somewhere in the interval 11.30-12.00. And exactly at 12.00 it turns away from the Japanese coast at NO43. But "Emerald was still in view of the enemy. You yourself wrote
      Quote: Comrade
      The map shows that there was another Japanese ship, probably one of the auxiliary cruisers, which maintained visual contact with the Emerald, and was mistakenly identified by ours as a cruiser of the 6th combat detachment. It was this vessel that directed the Chitose to the Emerald with its radiograms, since the Emerald was not visible from this cruiser.

      So yes, that’s what the pursuit was overcome.
      Quote: Comrade
      "Emerald" gave 21 knots, "Chitose" could not develop more than seventeen. Four knots, is this a "minor advantage"?

      Fersen saw that in spite of the full speed, he could not go beyond the limits of visual visibility.
      Quote: Comrade
      Togo had such an advantage in the battle at Cape Shantung, Togo had such an advantage in the outbreak of the Tsushima battle, and it hardly seemed "insignificant" to the Japanese (and Russian) commander.

      Everything is relative :))) Togo outnumbered Russian ships in Tsushima with their 11 ties by almost one and a half times - Emerald exceeded Chitose by 20-23 percent. And Togo's advantage in speed did not save him from having to "surrender into the hands of Vitgeft" in the second phase of the battle - when he was forced to catch up with the Russians, he had to engage in battle in an extremely unfavorable configuration for himself.
      I will continue below - does not interfere in the comments
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        7 May 2020 11: 40 New
        +1
        Quote: Comrade
        I can’t believe it, dear colleague, that during the Tsushima battle, Fersen never looked towards the armadillos of Togo through binoculars or a telescope. As well as the fact that the distance at which he could do this was so great that he could not make out how many Japanese pipes there were, two or three.

        And what does the Tsushima battle have to do with it? :))) On May 14, Fersen identified the Japanese battleships in front of him as Asahi, Sikishima, Yashima and Fuji, quite honestly indicating the presence of a three-pipe battleship
        Quote: Comrade
        Here is the Meiji circuit, which is very different from Fersen's.

        Naturally, it’s different, because the diagrams have different times. This is evident if only because Ferzen’s Emerald scheme is still next to the Russian battleships, and on Meiji he runs away with might and main. In addition, the official Meiji clearly stated
        "At about 10 am, the 15st combat detachment approached approximately 1 m ... ... but suddenly the Emerald changed course and quickly began to go east."
        Yours faithfully, hi
      2. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 7 May 2020 23: 33 New
        0
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        So he did not have enough coal until the morning.

        Just recently, in a heated debate, you and I recalled that, according to Ferzen, he still had 120 tons of coal. For three days go.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          8 May 2020 10: 13 New
          +1
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Just recently, in a heated debate, you and I recalled that according to Ferzen, he still had 120 tons of coal

          I'm afraid you have memory lapses
      3. Comrade
        Comrade 8 May 2020 01: 36 New
        0
        My respect, dear Andrew!
        So he did not have enough coal until the morning.

        And an anchor for what?
        the fact is that V.N. Fersen, neither in his report nor in the testimony of the Investigative Commission, did not use the word "breakthrough" in relation to the actions of his cruiser on May 15

        If so, then I take my words back. Ferzen’s report was never read, but since you say so, it means that it is.
        But "Emerald was still in view of the enemy. You yourself wrote.
        So yes, that’s what the pursuit was overcome.

        Yes, he was indeed seen, but it was not a battle ship. I could not make out the name, it is written by hand and the lines of hieroglyphs merge, but you can still see that there is no name "Akitsushima" there.
        Fall:
        Tsu
        Continent
        I would still understand if they were overtaking him, they opened sighting fire, and the Emerald had to change course, but here he sees smoke, but the distance is such that it is not even clear what kind of ship is there.
        But Fersen had already jumped aside. I do not argue that he knew better there how to act, but, I repeat, such an act does not attract an action for which he is awarded the golden weapon "For Courage."
        The Baron led the cruiser more than carefully, and probably he was right, but what’s the point bravery ?
        On May 14, Fersen identified the Japanese battleships in front of him as Asahi, Sikishima, Yashima and Fuji, quite honestly indicating the presence of a three-pipe battleship

        I did not know about this, thanks for the information.
        Naturally, it’s different, because the diagrams have different times.

        You're right :-)
        PS
        I searched in "Top Secret History" for a scheme with Nebogatov's surrender - I did not find it. Either it does not exist at all, or, most likely, it is not in the public domain.
        1. Jura 27
          Jura 27 9 May 2020 10: 47 New
          0
          [/ quote] but it was not a battle ship. I could not make out the name, it is written by hand and the lines of hieroglyphs merge, but you can still see that there is no name "Akitsushima" there.
          Fall:
          Tsu
          洲 [quote]

          Google translates the hieroglyphs as, - "Akitsushima".
          1. Comrade
            Comrade 9 May 2020 15: 19 New
            0
            Google translates hieroglyphs as, - “Akitsushima.”

            And on the map next to the route of the ship that followed the Emerald, the name of another ship, since the characters are different.
            This is the meaning of the fragment of my comment to which you answered me.
        2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          9 May 2020 11: 55 New
          +1
          Quote: Comrade
          And an anchor for what?

          And at anchor, dear colleague, standing in the sea with the fireboxes extinguished is an extremely dangerous occupation. It can be very frightening, disrupt the ship, etc. etc. - in general, the sea does not like such jokes and sometimes severely punishes them.
          Quote: Comrade
          Ferzen’s report was never read, but since you say so, it means that it is.

          I sent you a link to it
          Quote: Comrade
          Yes, they did see him, but it was not a warship.

          Apparently, he was also far from the Emerald, so he was probably mistaken for a battle. In any case, the Emerald believed that they broke away from the chase at 14.00
          Quote: Comrade
          I would still understand if they were overtaking him, they opened sighting fire, and the Emerald had to change course, but here he sees smoke, but the distance is such that it is not even clear what kind of ship is there.

          So the fact is that Fersen initially took a course that would not allow the Japanese to go against him, which is quite logical. Then, when the 6th combat lagged behind, he changed course closer to the north, and walked about an hour after the chase was no longer visible. This is also logical - to turn to Vladivostok, you should first reliably break away from the chase. But then - breakdown, 13 knots, and all the problems arising from there.
          Quote: Comrade
          but, I repeat, such an act does not attract an action for which one is awarded the golden weapon "For Bravery."

          In principle - maybe it is, but it was precisely for such actions that they were awarded gold weapons - let us recall the same Prince of Lieven.
          Quote: Comrade
          I searched in "Top Secret History" for a scheme with Nebogatov's surrender - I did not find it.

          Sorry! It would be very interesting to look at her
    3. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 7 May 2020 12: 22 New
      +1
      Dear Valentin, the head of the cruiser squadron, Reitenstein, was still aboard the Askold, and it was he who made the decisions. Obviously, the merit is mostly due to him, and not to Gramatchikov.
      1. Nehist
        Nehist 7 May 2020 13: 36 New
        +1
        Um ... Here the casuistry of the naval charter (which even now exists), the commander of the boat decides how to fulfill the orders of the chief of the detachment on board. And at that time ....
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 7 May 2020 13: 45 New
          +2
          There is such a thing. But there is still a difference when the immediate superior is next to the "first after God", or when there is none.
          Take, for example, His Serene Highness Prince Lieven. He could not keep up with "Askold", but he understood the disastrous return to Arthur and made a decision. Himself. Maybe not the best possible, but ...
          By the way, he received the same golden weapon.
          1. Nehist
            Nehist 7 May 2020 16: 31 New
            0
            Um Lieven fulfilled the order of the VKV in ARTHUR not to return !!! In case of impossibility of a breakthrough to Vladivostok or serious injuries to intern. Witgeft, unlike Rozhestvensky, provided such an option ... That is, 1 TOE had clear instructions
      2. Comrade
        Comrade 8 May 2020 01: 41 New
        +2
        Hello, Ivan!
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        nevertheless, on "Askold" was the chief of the cruiser detachment, Reitenstein, and it was he who made the decisions. Obviously, the merit is mostly his, not Gramatchikov.

        This is so, dear colleague, but Reicenshtein was also bypassed with the award for a successful breakthrough.
  • rytik32
    rytik32 7 May 2020 08: 54 New
    +1
    I have a question on coal. How much coal was left when the cruiser was stranded?
    Fersen wrote about 10 tons. The team from the destroyer "Grozny" counted 35 tons during inspection, and not all of the holes were checked.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      7 May 2020 11: 48 New
      0
      Quote: rytik32
      The team from the destroyer "Grozny" counted 35 tons during inspection, and not all of the holes were checked.

      Present the document, please. In confirmation of your words.
      1. rytik32
        rytik32 7 May 2020 12: 26 New
        0
        Khromov. Cruisers of the "Pearl" class. Magazine "Marine collection" 2005/1
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          7 May 2020 12: 43 New
          0
          So, you have no document, but only its interpretation by Khromov. Let's read it together

          In those years, a widespread procedure was the measurement of coal in places of its storage. Obviously, it would be somewhat difficult to measure the burning coal. In addition, the explosion deforms the ship's premises. In such conditions, the assessment of coal could be done exclusively "by eye", in contrast to the data of the mechanic "Emerald"
          1. rytik32
            rytik32 7 May 2020 12: 51 New
            0
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            So, you have no document, but only its interpretation by Khromov

            Yeah, didn’t you need a document to count your hits in Mikasu? Those. if the source data contradicts your version, the worse for the source. Clear.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            In such conditions, the assessment of coal could be done exclusively "by eye", in contrast to the data of the mechanic "Emerald"

            Let's take into account that the difference is 3,5 times and not all the holes are available yet and some of the coal has burned out - too big a mistake, even "by eye".
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              7 May 2020 13: 29 New
              +2
              Quote: rytik32
              Yeah, didn’t you need a document to count your hits in Mikasu?

              Counting hits in Mikasu was done by the Japanese, and quite meticulously. There is no reason not to trust them. A document ... What does a Japanese document help you with? Do you speak Japanese characters?
              Quote: rytik32
              Those. if the source data contradicts your version, the worse for the source.

              Why? It's just that there is data from Fersen and other officers on the remains of coal, indicated by them in the report and testimony of the Investigative Commission. And we know that Fersen was able to measure the pits with coal (there were also difficulties, but still). And the sailors from Grozny worked with the blown up cruiser and, sorry, had no motivation to find out "how much coal in grams." Most importantly, we do not see Grozny's report and do not know for certain what exactly was said there.
              Quote: rytik32
              Let's take into account that the difference is 3,5 times and not all the holes are available yet and some of the coal has burned out - too big a mistake, even "by eye".

              Let's remember how the mechanic of "Pearl" missed about 80 tons of coal on his own, quite a whole cruiser? :))) Now, if there was an unloading, then yes, it would be the most accurate data, and so ...
    2. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 7 May 2020 23: 40 New
      0
      Quote: rytik32
      I have a question on coal. How much coal was left when the cruiser was stranded?

      In a previous article by Andrei on this subject, there was a dispute in the comments. Andrei referred to the Dyachkov plate from which 15-60 tons are obtained in the remainder. But Ferzen himself in the testimony indicated that he had 120 tons of coal more than in the table of Dyachkov.

      The pearls on these additional 80 tons reached Manila. Ferzen had a lot of coal in the leftovers, no matter how you spend all these 120 tons per day, he could not.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        8 May 2020 10: 26 New
        +1
        Quote: Saxahorse
        In a previous article by Andrei on this subject, there was a dispute in the comments. Andrei referred to the Dyachkov plate from which 15-60 tons are obtained in the remainder. But Ferzen himself in the testimony indicated that he had 120 tons of coal more than in the table of Dyachkov.

        fool
        1. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 8 May 2020 22: 28 New
          0
          Well, what can such a stubborn person answer?

          Read the documents at last, you are our dreamer! laughing
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            9 May 2020 11: 28 New
            +1
            Quote: Saxahorse
            Well, what can such a stubborn person answer?

            Fersen’s erroneous statement about 750 tons, from a report in which he directly states that he writes from memory. And which has already been disassembled in previous discussions.
            Liar :))))
            1. Saxahorse
              Saxahorse 9 May 2020 21: 15 New
              0
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Fersen’s erroneous statement about 750 tons, from a report in which he directly states that he writes from memory. And which has already been disassembled in previous discussions.
              Liar :))))

              I also love you very much my dear visionary, Andrey from Chelyabinsk laughing

              This means that on the morning of May 14, Fersen had at least 600 tons of coal in the pits. Almost a quarter more than Diamond or Pearl! wassat
  • stafford41
    stafford41 8 May 2020 12: 50 New
    0
    Great article, dear Andrey! Many thanks.
    From it, I realized that you are all the same for punishing Ferzen for the explosion of the Emerald by changing his future career, entrusting him with less responsible posts. Am I right, is this a way to punish him for the Emerald explosion? Because as far as I know, Ferzen’s previous career before his explosion and his subsequent career, he didn’t have other cases of neurotic disorder of his psyche in the line of duty.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      9 May 2020 11: 25 New
      +2
      Quote: Stafford41
      From it, I realized that you are all the same for punishing Ferzen for the explosion of the Emerald by changing his future career, entrusting him with less responsible posts.

      Yes, this is my personal opinion.
      Quote: Stafford41
      Because as far as I know, Ferzen’s previous career before his explosion and his subsequent career, he didn’t have other cases of neurotic disorder of his psyche in the line of duty.

      But he didn’t get into such difficult situations
  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 8 May 2020 20: 12 New
    +1
    Quote: ignoto
    This did not bother him.

    It didn't hurt to do what? Get out of the battlefield? Then it helped :))
    Quote: ignoto
    When the British appeared caliber 140 mm

    Ours switched to 130mm. Also underweight in sailors?
  • rytik32
    rytik32 9 May 2020 09: 08 New
    +2
    Quote: Jura 27
    scheme of maneuvering of the cruiser "Yoshino" during the shelling of Vladivostok

    What date was that?

    I join the question.
    Otherwise, it may turn out that "Izumo", "Asama", "Azuma", "Iwate", "Yakumo" and "Kasagi" also participated in the shelling)). a detachment superior in strength to the WOK.
    1. Comrade
      Comrade 10 May 2020 01: 30 New
      +1
      Quote: rytik32
      it may turn out that Izumo, Asama, Azuma, Iwate, Yakumo and Kasagi also participated in the shelling

      Obviously, you mean the raid on Vladivostok on March 22, 1904. This at first also occurred to me, however, that shelling is given in detail on other maps, and the date is indicated.
      Along the way, the Japanese were well aware of both the location of Vladivostok's coastal batteries and their firing range. There is a document on three pages with detailed and clear information on this topic.
      Espionage in Vladivostok probably flourished. There are Japanese documents with the location of minefields, with parking places for cruisers, etc.
      1. Jura 27
        Jura 27 10 May 2020 06: 16 New
        +2
        Quote: Comrade
        Quote: rytik32
        it may turn out that Izumo, Asama, Azuma, Iwate, Yakumo and Kasagi also participated in the shelling

        Obviously, you mean the raid on Vladivostok on March 22, 1904. This at first also occurred to me, however, that shelling is given in detail on other maps, and the date is indicated.
        Along the way, the Japanese were well aware of both the location of Vladivostok's coastal batteries and their firing range. There is a document on three pages with detailed and clear information on this topic.
        Espionage in Vladivostok probably flourished. There are Japanese documents with the location of minefields, with parking places for cruisers, etc.

        There Ioshino was not alone, some ships were following right at the moment of separation of Yoshino from them. Having made a loop to Stoke, Ioshino, in 3-27, joins these unknown ships.
  • Alex rand
    Alex rand 16 May 2020 22: 29 New
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    Thank you very interesting article, the main thing in assessing the past is facts and not propaganda cliches.
    Sorry for the offtopic and how do you feel about the article by Yuri Selivanov: In pursuit of "backward" Russia? The author simply refers to you there. Creating the impression of complicity in his opinion.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      18 May 2020 08: 13 New
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      Good afternoon!
      I'm pretty bad, because in my opinion the author’s opinion is completely erroneous
  • nemoXX
    nemoXX 21 May 2020 08: 49 New
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    Undoubtedly, the behavior of the Emerald commander was influenced by the battle, the defeat of the Russian squadron and its surrender to the Japanese! However, the destruction of the cruiser, which the Japanese clearly did not threaten - in my opinion, borders on a crime. Nothing prevented to prepare the cruiser for destruction, but not to destroy unnecessarily. The judgments here "why pity the cruiser if the entire squadron is lost" are at least strange! And here, Fersen's awarding "For Bravery" (destroying his own cruiser) is very Russian. Like, "yes, we were defeated, but look how brave we are!" The country needs heroes ... they really are.
  • Egorov Oleg
    Egorov Oleg 24 May 2020 08: 05 New
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    The author (the article is good, the analysis is excellent) did not touch on the main problem, the decomposition of the elite of that time, the country froze in the 17th century (at that time capitalism was already developing in Europe in Russia, there was complete feudalism that existed until 1917), in the English fleet of Rozhestvensky, Nebogatov Enquist would simply have been hanged by the verdict of the Court, but here, like faithful vassals, they were just a little punished, but they did not receive the real punishment, there were smart and initiative commanders in the Russian Navy, but look at their posts, commander of the min-zag Amur Ivanov, he it’s necessary to command the squadron, and in his years he was the commander of a ship of rank 4, and there were a lot of such ones, mistakes must be sorted so as not to be repeated, I believe that if we were more critical about our history, we would not ruin the Soviet Union and not would fall back into the 17th century, like this hour.