The death of the cruiser "Emerald"

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In the cycle dedicated to the Russian "lightning", the armored cruisers "Pearl" and "Emerald", we left these ships at the end of the hostilities of the Russo-Japanese War, in which they took part. For the Emerald, this was a breakthrough between the Japanese troops surrounding the remains of the 2nd and 3rd Pacific squadrons, and for the Pearls, when he, together with Oleg and Aurora, arrived in Manila after the Tsushima battle. But considerable interest are the further service and death of both of these cruisers. In the proposed material, the author will consider the tragic end. stories cruiser "Emerald".

Victim of panic moods


According to the classic point of view, the death of the cruiser was the result of a psychological breakdown of his commander, Baron Vasily Nikolayevich Ferzen. He quite reasonably and adequately commanded the cruiser in the battle of Tsushima. After the devastating day battle for the Russian squadron, in the evening of May 14, V.N. Fersen left the Emerald with the main forces of the squadron, although it would have been much safer to try to break into Vladivostok alone. And finally, despite the shock experienced by the Russian sailors and the commander of the Emerald, at the sight of the miserable remnants of his squadron and practically intact Japanese fleet morning of May 15, V.N. Fersen nevertheless found the strength to ignore the shameful order of Rear Admiral N.I. Nebogatova about surrender and go on a breakthrough.



But then the commander of the Emerald panicked. Instead of going directly to Vladivostok, for some reason he took the northeast, wanting to bring the cruiser either to the bay of St. Vladimir, or to the bay of St. Olga, and, as a result, put the cruiser on stones in the bay of Vladimir. Then, instead of sending a message to Vladivostok and waiting for help from there, he blew up the cruiser.

How sound is this point of view?

Breakthrough and chase


Let us briefly recall the circumstances of the “beautiful departure” of the “Emerald” from the main forces of the enemy, which took place on May 15. The cruiser made a breakthrough at about 10.30 am trying to develop the maximum stroke. It is difficult to say what kind of speed he reached, nevertheless, an analysis of the officers' reports suggests 21.5 knots. Russian official history claims that the 6th Japanese military detachment and the Chitose armored cruiser were chasing the cruiser. But get close to the ship V.N. Fersen at a distance of effective shooting they failed: A.A. Alliluyev and M.A. Bogdanov in his work on cruisers such as the Emerald, note that the shells fired from Japanese ships to the Emerald did not reach. According to several domestic sources, the pursuit of the Russian cruiser was stopped at 14.00.

According to Japanese data, everything was a bit wrong. Only the Akitsushima and Chitose went for the Emerald. The first “chased” the Russian cruiser for about half an hour, having a speed of not more than 14 knots. "Chitose" was a little more persistent. Having quickly lost sight of the Emerald, he was moving in the direction where the Russian cruiser had gone a little over two hours, developing 17 or 18 knots. They didn’t open fire from Japanese ships, the Emerald also did not shoot beyond the range, which follows from the report of its commander. And it can be argued that the Japanese refused all attempts to catch up with the Emerald a little later than 12.30, maybe at 13.00. Where, then, in Russian sources, the time is 14.00?


Armored cruiser "Akitsushima", Kobe, 1897

Perhaps this is taken from the testimony of the Investigative Commission of the navigational officer, Lieutenant Polushkin, who claimed that “the pursuit of the enemy cruisers lasted about 3 hours” and “around 14.00 the enemy cruisers disappeared from sight”. Here we can only assume that the officer, writing down from memory, was inaccurate, or that some other Japanese ships or ships that were mistaken for cruisers pursuing him were seen on the Emerald. It is also possible that Polushkin did not mean the Japanese cruisers themselves, but the smokes that can be seen long enough after the ships releasing them disappeared over the horizon.

Further events on May 15


Be that as it may, the Emerald believed that they had only come off the Japanese at 14.00:14 p.m. and had no doubt that the enemy cruisers would continue the pursuit - this should be taken into account when evaluating the further actions of the crew and commander of the Russian ship. From Japanese sources it follows that the chase was stopped earlier, but here there can be no complaints against our sailors. It often happens at sea that it’s not what is actually happening, especially when it comes to observations at a great distance. In addition, the refusal of the Japanese to chase looks completely unnatural. Their forces surrounding the Russian squadron had an overwhelming numerical advantage, and the United Fleet admirals had in abundance comparatively high-speed armored cruisers, which they could send in pursuit of the Emerald. Clear explanations of why this was not done, the sources do not contain. Perhaps the attention of the Japanese commanders was so captured by the capitulating squadron N.I. Nebogatova, that they had forgotten to give the corresponding order, hoping that another admiral would give the necessary command? Or did the Japanese, knowing the "passport" speed of the Emerald, believe that it would still not be possible to catch it? But even in this case, an attempt should still be made - the Japanese knew from their own experience that ships in combat conditions were far from always capable of giving the course demonstrated by tests. In addition, our opponents should take into account that in the battle on May XNUMX, the Emerald could be damaged, which did not allow it to maintain high speed for a long time.

Thus, the refusal to prosecute Emerald looked completely illogical and V.N. Fersen could not, and should not have counted on such a gift of fate. He didn’t expect it: without a doubt, both the ship’s commander and his officers understood the poor condition of the Emerald’s vehicles, but it was still clear that after “parting” with the pursuit, for some time it was necessary to go at maximum speed to finally break away from the Japanese cruisers and only then reduce the speed.

Alas, the Emerald power plant failed to withstand such a load. Somewhere between 14.00 p.m. and 15.00 p.m., that is, only within an hour after the "Emerald" ceased to "see" the pursuers, the steam line burst on the ship, supplying the steering machine and auxiliary mechanisms of the feed machine. From the side, the accident had a very eerie appearance - the cruiser noticeably lost track, and along the ramp leading to the boiler room upward thick clouds of steam burst forth. The stoker Gemakin was not taken aback: just a few minutes after the accident, he pulled canvas tarps on his hands and a bag over his head, doused with cold water, was already descending into the stoker. Soon he was followed by one of the drivers. The accident was eliminated in half an hour, but, of course, it was no longer possible to commission the steam line.

Usually it is indicated that the speed of the ship was reduced to 15 knots, but, apparently, the drop was even more noticeable. So, the senior officer of Emerald P. Patton-Fanton-de-Verraion pointed out: “Initially, the speed was about 21,5 knots, then, about 3 hours, when the steam line burst, they reduced the speed to 14-15 knots, and then reduced and up to 13 ".

Thus, by approximately 15.00:15 on May XNUMX, the Emerald from a high-speed and practically intact cruiser turned into a wounded-slow-wrecker, unable to evade the battle with the vast majority of Japanese armored cruisers. There is no doubt that if the Japanese had shown a little more perseverance in the pursuit of the Emerald, then he would have expected a heroic death in battle. Fortunately, this did not happen, but still the position of the Russian ship remained extremely difficult: in addition to the loss of course, the coal reserves on the cruiser caused great concern.

And again to the issue of overloading Russian ships with coal


Unfortunately, the exact amount of coal on the Emerald on May 15 is impossible to indicate. V.N. Fersen highlighted this issue in his testimony of the Commission of Inquiry:

"How many tons of coal were, I can’t say, the last loading of coal was on May 10 in the North China Sea, after the passage of the island groups of Mao Tao and Likey, where 750 tons were received."

The indicated 750 tons obviously led to the ship overload - according to the project, the normal coal reserve was 360 tons, and the maximum, calculated by the capacity of coal pits - 535 tons. However, it can be assumed that V.N. Fersen mistakenly overestimated the amount of coal somewhat (on the morning of May 11, the Emerald reported that he had 629 tons of coal), but in any case, it turned out that at the time of the last bunkering the coal reserves far exceeded the total coal reserve for the cruiser. It would seem - horror-horror-horror, to what this nightmare coal maniac Z.P. brought the squadron Rozhdestvensky, that's just ...

On the morning of May 13, coal reserves at the Emerald accounted for almost the maximum load, 522 tons.


Data from the morning reports of the ships of the Russian squadron submitted to the Investigation Commission by the senior officer of the Almaz armored cruiser Captain 2nd rank Dyachkov

After the battle on May 14 and the breakthrough on May 15, the cruiser was left with coal not just small, but catastrophically small. In total, the cruiser had 6 boiler rooms and 16 boilers, while in the first and second stoker there were 1 boilers, and in the rest - three. So, almost all of the remaining coal reserves lay in the pit of the first stoker. There were almost no coal in the pits of the 2nd and 2rd stoker, and the 1th, 2th and 3th stoker had no coal at all. In order to use them, the sailors had to manually carry coal from a large pit at the first stoker. In words - it’s easy, but it’s almost 4/5 of the cruiser’s length! Moreover, for this it was necessary to raise it to the upper deck, transfer it, and then lower it into the necessary stoker.

And in fact, the reserves of the first boiler house turned out to be not very large - despite the fact that the cruiser went only 1 knots the rest of the day on May 15 and 16, by the time coal arrived in St. Vladimir’s Bay, there were about 13 tons. Taking into account the testimony of Lieutenant Polushkin that the cruiser spent about 10 tons of coal per day of the economic course, it turns out that the Emerald left about 60 fuel left, with a force of 4 hours of the economic course. And this despite the fact that the whole tree on the cruiser, excluding 5 boats and masts with ropes, was sent to the furnaces and burned on the night of May 3-15 ...

Undoubtedly, at the beginning of the Tsushima battle “Emerald” had a coal reserve close to maximum. But on May 14, the cruiser did not receive any noticeable damage that would entail an increased consumption of coal. It also cannot be said that V.N. Fersen abused the speed qualities of his ship. Sometimes on May 14 the Emerald would go full speed, but for the most part it stayed close to the main forces and moved at a fairly moderate speed. The same applies to the night of May 14-15. At the same time, from the beginning of the breakthrough on May 15 to the breakdown of the steam line, when the Emerald squeezed out everything it could do from its power plant, it took 4,5 hours.

In other words, nothing extraordinary happened in the battle of Tsushima in terms of fuel consumption with the cruiser - ordinary combat work for a ship of its class. Nevertheless, by the evening of May 15, there was exactly enough coal left on the Emerald to “crawl” to Vladivostok with an economic route of 13 knots. And not a ton more.

Why did this happen? Of course, the Emerald did not have everything in order with the power plant, but alas, things were a little better on many other ships of the Russian squadron. But the fact is that the features of the running modes in battle lead to a high consumption of coal, even if the ship does not receive damage, and if it does, then it can increase even more. And the commander of the 2nd Pacific Squadron could not ignore this.

According to the author, the story of the cruiser Emerald is an excellent example that explains why Z.P. Rozhdestvensky needed "extra" coal on the squadron.

But what if the fight does happen?


The prospects of meeting with Japanese ships on May 15-16 for the Emerald were extremely depressing. Of course, the extreme fatigue of the crew would have affected. It is clear that there was no time to rest during the battle of May 14 and the breakthrough of May 15, but then V.N. Fersen had to use almost the entire crew to drag coal into the empty fireplaces. Here is how he described it himself in the testimony of the Investigative Commission: “The team that worked on May 14 without rest was so tired that three people had to be assigned to work performed in ordinary times alone, especially to supply coal to the boilers. The entire combat team was busy pulling coal on the upper deck. "

Analyzing sea battles of those times, we often confine ourselves to studying the technical condition of ships, while ignoring the state of its crew. But one must never forget that it is people who fight, not technology.

However, at the Emerald and on the technical side, everything was more than bad. In the event of a fight, of course, it would be impossible to drag coal along the deck, and this led to the need to stop the fumes in the 4th, 5th and 6th stoker, thus stopping only 9 of the 16 boilers working in this way. Naturally, the middle car had to would stop too and the cruiser would have to fight with two out of three working vehicles. But it would also be dangerous to overload them - the Emerald refrigerators were very clogged, which had a particularly bad effect on the operation of the right-hand car. The latter, even when driving at 13 nodes during May 16, had to be stopped periodically.

Thus, if, say, on May 16th, the Emerald would meet an enemy cruiser, then all that was left for it was to enter the battle, having 7 boilers out of 16 and 2 out of three under steam. Perhaps, having dispersed both of them “to the fullest”, the ship managed to give full speed, which was only possible in such a situation - offhand there are hardly more than 18 knots. But, even if a miracle happened and the cars could stand it, the coal reserves were enough for about 2 hours, after which the Emerald completely lost its course and could only move with the flow.

In the event of a battle with at least some equal enemy, the Emerald was doomed.

Actions V.N. Fersen in the evening of May 15 and 16


As you know, in order to go to Vladivostok, the Russian squadron had to adhere to the general course NO23, but the Emerald during the breakthrough was more likely to go to O, that is, to the east. This, of course, was a forced decision, since the course of the breakthrough was determined by the position of the Japanese military units, between which the cruiser should have slipped. But then, when the Japanese ships disappeared from the horizon, Baron V.N. Fersen should adjust the route and decide where exactly he will lead the cruiser entrusted to him.

Why didn't the Emerald go to Vladivostok? All sources known to the author give the same answer: V.N. Fersen feared to meet the enemy forces there. Today we know that there were no enemy cruisers on the way to Vladivostok, and this decision of the cruiser commander seems unnecessary caution. But it is today.

And then for the Russian sailors the refusal of the Japanese to pursue the Emerald was categorically incomprehensible. And the only reasonable explanation why this happened was that the Japanese, instead of fleeing east to the fast cruiser, which they might not have caught up with, immediately went north-east, along the shortest route to Vladivostok. That is how they could level the advantage of the Emerald in speed, and in addition, from the point of view of the Japanese, it would be wise to put a cruising barrier near Vladivostok to intercept not only the Emerald, but also other Russian ships that fought off the main forces of the squadron at night from May 14 to May 15.

Thus, reasoning with an open mind, the probability of stumbling upon Japanese forces on the way to Vladivostok seemed very high, while the Emerald did not have any chances to survive after such a collision. So the decision of V.N. Fersen go to the bay of St. Vladimir or St. Olga looks quite logical and reasonable.

But where exactly did the Emerald commander lead his cruiser? Here, in the sources, big discrepancies begin. So, A.A. Alliluyev and M.A. Bogdanov write:

“Coal was running out when, on the night of May 17, the Emerald approached the bay of St. Vladimir, but the commander, who had spent almost the third day almost without sleep, suddenly decided to go south, to the bay of St. Olga. But on the way, hearing about the Japanese ships that often looked there before the war, Fersen changed his mind and the cruiser, burning the last tons of coal, headed back. Unfortunately, it is in the bay of St. Olga had the coal stock so needed for the cruiser. ”

One gets the feeling that V.N. Fersen just darted in a panic, not knowing where to stumble. But here V.V. Khromov, in his monograph, describes the same events much more calmly: "At 18.00 we took a course leading to a point equidistant from Vladivostok and Vladimir Bay 50 miles from the coast, and there they were about to decide where to go." And further on according to V.V. Khromov V.N. Fersen really wondered whether to go nevertheless to go to Vladimir Bay or to go to Olga Bay, which is on the same side. And, on the advice of his senior officer, he nevertheless chose Vladimir Bay. It is also worth noting that the distance between these two bays is as much as 13,5 nautical miles, so it would not have been possible to burn a significant amount of coal even in the case of “throwing” between them.

If you read the documents, then, according to the testimony of the lieutenant of the navigational officer, Lieutenant Polushkin, the commander of the Emerald decided to go to the bay of St. Vladimir immediately after the report of the mechanic that the cruiser is unable to give a move in excess of 15 knots. due to fear of damage, that is, in the evening of May 15. Moreover, according to V.N. Ferzena: “At first I planned to go to Olga, but the senior officer expressed the opinion that this bay was probably mined to give shelter to our destroyers from the enemy. Having recognized this opinion as solid, he chose Vladimir as the closest to Olga, where he hoped, perhaps, to find a telegraph station. ”

Unfortunately, the author was unable to find an exact description of the Emerald route, which could only dot all the i's. But nevertheless, based on the foregoing, the conclusion suggests itself that there was no “shyness” between the bays, and that V.N. Fersen made a decision where to lead the cruiser in the evening of May 15. Moreover, this decision was quite balanced, made after discussion with the cruiser officers and did not look at all like any panic.

And then ... the night of May 16 and the day following it, the cruiser hardly moved at 13 knots, periodically stopping the right car. To the bay of St. Vladimir "Emerald" arrived at the first hour of the night on May 17. And here, in a good way, one should have anchored off the coast in order to enter the bay in the morning, but the Emerald did not have enough coal until the morning. Thus, V.N. Fersen had no choice but to lead the cruiser into the bay in the darkness of night.

Did the Emerald commander have any other options? The author does not see those. To anchor the cruiser at the bay and completely extinguish the firebox to save coal was extremely dangerous. In order to "unscramble" them back, it would take time, and considerable, and the sea to that and the sea, which sometimes presents surprises, and it was impossible to leave the ship without the ability to make a move at night. And just like that, it was impossible to “play” with the speed of the ship in order to manage to approach the bay during the day or vice versa, at dawn - there simply was no coal for that.

Catastrophe


Further well-known. V.N. Fersen was planning to put the Emerald in the depths of the southern part of the Fertoing Bay (a rather complicated way of setting 2 anchors) side to the entrance to the bay and thereby be able to meet with full on-board fire any enemy ship that tries to go to the cruiser. Then the commander intended to establish contact with Vladivostok, and there already act according to the circumstances.

Unfortunately, these calculations were not destined to be executed. The Emerald quite successfully passed the entrance capes, but then, trying to pass through the three-cable passage to the southern part of the bay, took it too close to Cape Orekhova and jumped out onto the reef. The cruiser sat tight - two-thirds of its hull were very shallow, with the left side out of the water about 60 cm (two feet).

And this failure, apparently, became the very straw that breaks the back of a camel. Before the Emerald is stranded, all the actions of V.N. Fersen look logical and reasonable. But everything that happened afterwards no longer fits into the idea of ​​the brave and resourceful commander that V.N. showed himself to be. Fersen before that.

The attempt to take the Emerald aground was carried out “for show” - only provisions and a part of the crew were transported from the cruiser to the shore, but the ammunition and water in the boilers remained in place. V.N. Fersen explained this by the fact that he could not deprive the cruiser of shells due to the danger of the appearance of the enemy, but who prevented the ammunition from being transported to the stern of the Emerald? Shoot at St. In any case, Olga could only have two 120-mm guns, a jute and a right shkane, so the rest of the guns, obviously, did not need ammunition. And if there was a need to blow up the cruiser, the shells and charges detonated in the stern no worse than anywhere else in the hull, and they would have inflicted no less damage. In addition, such a solution loaded the stern, unloading the center of the hull and bow, that is, created good prerequisites for the removal of the ship aground. The water from the boilers could probably also be drained - not from all, but only from those that could not be used anyway due to the lack of coal.

Thus, it seems that V.N. Fersen did not do everything possible to save his cruiser. Having lost hope to take the ship aground, V.N. Fersen was absolutely sure that the Japanese would soon find the Emerald and considered its destruction the only way to prevent the capture of the cruiser by the Japanese. He considered it impossible to fight, since only two 120-mm guns could shoot towards the exit of their bay.

It may well be that in terms of the battle V.N. Fersen was right. As far as the author could figure it out, the Japanese, when they appeared at Vladimir Bay there was no need to climb into it, they could shoot the Emerald maneuvering at sea. Under such conditions, 120-mm artillery could be quickly suppressed. But why it was impossible to wait for the appearance of the enemy, and only then blow up the cruiser?

In his testimony of the Commission of Inquiry V.N. Fersen explained his decision by the fact that he was not sure of the destructiveness of the prepared explosions. In other words, the commander of the Emerald feared that on the first attempt the cruiser would not receive decisive damage excluding its aground and towing, and that it would be necessary to re-mine and detonate it - but there would be no time left for it because of the enemy.

There was a certain reason for these considerations, but even taking all this into account, it was necessary to soberly assess the risks. If the Japanese appear at all, if they find a cruiser, then perhaps its undermining will not lead to decisive damage ...

Could the Japanese be expected to appear at Vladimir Bay, where the Emerald accident occurred? The author is absolutely sure that V.N. Fersen really should have expected the Japanese from Vladivostok, although in reality they were not there. But the likelihood that the Japanese would still view the coastline for hundreds of kilometers should be estimated as very small.

Yes, theoretically, without finding the Emerald near Vladivostok, the Japanese could have assumed that it was standing somewhere in the bays of the Russian coast and carried out a search there. But what would it look like in reality? Obviously, the detachment, which the Japanese could immediately send to patrol near Vladivostok after the battle, would not have to be assigned to bunkering after such a long time, so the passage to Vladivostok was again open. Why, then, should the Japanese return and search along the coastline?

Nevertheless, the ships of the United Fleet did indeed visit Vladimir’s bay, but this only happened on June 30, when the Japanese sent Nissin and Kassugu with the 1st detachment of fighters for reconnaissance and demonstration - that is, without any connection with the search for the cruiser.

In other words, even in theory, the chances of the Japanese appearing at Vladimir Bay were, although non-zero, but not high. In reality, the Japanese after the Tsushima battle are not about scouring the coastline - they even considered the patrol at Vladivostok unnecessary. Thus, the firm conviction of V.N. Fersen in the fact that the Japanese "are about to appear" was obviously mistaken.

Finally, the suspicion of the commander of the Emerald that the first attempt would not succeed in destroying the cruiser also did not materialize. For the detonation, the charging compartments of Whitehead mines were used, which were laid in the aft cartridge cellar and the provisions compartment located at the bow cartridge cellar. At the same time, the tubes of segmented shells in the cellars were installed on impact.

It is not entirely clear why the cellar itself was not mined in the nose, but the room adjacent to it, but this had a decisive effect on the effectiveness of the blasting. The explosion in the nose did not seem to cause heavy damage, but caused a fire that reached the cartridge cellar, so that the shells in it burst within half an hour. But the explosion in the stern turned the hull right up to the midsection. There wasn’t any talk about agrounding and towing, but the commander, after inspecting the cruiser, found that the vehicles were preserved and further blew them up, after which the Emerald finally turned into a pile of scrap metal.


Spoiled "Emerald" in 1905

Thus, we can state that none of V.N.’s considerations Fersen, with whom he was guided, making the decision to undermine the cruiser was not justified. The Japanese did not appear at Vladimir Bay, and the cruiser was actually destroyed by an explosion on the first try.

The third mistake V.N. Fersen should be considered a rejection of the military council. I must say that the commander of the Emerald was not inclined to collect it before, but there can be no complaints. When it was necessary to make a breakthrough, there was no time to gather advice, and the decision to turn to Vladimir Bay instead of Vladivostok was completely within the competence of the cruiser commander and the military council.

But now it was about the destruction of the Emerald, and in the absence of an immediate threat - after all, there were no Japanese on the horizon. Thus, V.N. Fersen was both an occasion and time for a military council, but instead, he limited himself to individual conversations with officers. During these conversations, only two officers, warrant officer Virenius and mechanic Topchev, spoke out against the immediate destruction of the cruiser, while the rest agreed with their commander.

But, if so, was there any sense in a military council? V.V. Khromov, in his monograph, expresses an interesting hypothesis that the decision of the council could still lead to the rejection of the Emerald. The fact is that, as you know, the youngest officer first speaks at a military council, and then in seniority. So, the first at the military council would be to speak to Ensign Shandrenko (Shandrenko?), And he, according to the entries in his diary, was against the immediate destruction of the cruiser. Behind him were the midshipman Virenius and the mechanic Topchev, who, as we know, also opposed the blast.

If this happened, and the three junior officers spoke out in favor of refusing to immediately destroy the Emerald, then it would be much more difficult for the remaining officers to support the idea of ​​a cruiser commander. And - who knows, it could very well turn out that the military council would speak out against the destruction of the ship. However, of course, V.N. Fersen, in this case too, could have made the decision to undermine the cruiser, taking full responsibility for himself - he had such a right.

Of course, it is impossible to argue that the military council prevented the immediate destruction of the cruiser. But it is obvious that the refusal to conduct it destroyed the last chance to save the Emerald from its own commander. There is also no doubt that the Emerald could have been saved. In the bay, Olga had a telegraph, through which it was possible to contact Vladivostok, and, according to V.V. Khromov even managed to send the armored cruiser Rossiya to the rescue of the Emerald. Undoubtedly, he could share coal with a cruiser that ran aground. And it is more than likely that, using a giant armored cruiser as a tugboat, the Emerald could be put into open water, after which both ships could return to Vladivostok. There were no Japanese troops that could interfere with them.

Conclusions


The blame for the death of the cruiser "Emerald" should be entirely and completely laid on his commander, V.N. Fersen. The baron has established himself as an experienced navigator, having led his essentially unfinished cruiser through half the world. He reasonably commanded the Emerald in the daytime battle devastating for the Russian squadron on May 14 and did not leave the main forces of the squadron to their fate on the night that the Japanese destroyers went hunting. V.N. Fersen directed his ship to breakthrough when the rest surrendered. To do this, you had to have real courage, especially since the commander of the Emerald had a good idea of ​​how unreliable the mechanisms of his cruiser were, and what would happen if they failed at the wrong time. And finally, all the actions of V.N. Fersen after separation from the Japanese, including the decision to enter Vladimir’s bay at night, were quite reasonable and adequate to the situation, as it was supposed to be presented on the Russian cruiser.

Apparently, V.N. Fersen did not panic even after the Emerald was stranded. But the heavy burden of responsibility for the ship entrusted to him, the fatigue of the 9-month transition to Tsushima, the psychological stress from losing the battle with a crushing score led to the thought: “The Japanese are close and about to appear and capture the Emerald, and I don’t I can prevent this ”became, for him, in fact, intrusive. Obviously, the worst thing for V.N. Ferzen was to surrender the ship to the enemy: he could not and did not want to follow the example of Admiral N.I. Nebogatova.

According to the author, the commander of the cruiser Emerald should not be blamed for cowardice. It is noteworthy that V.N. Fersen, destroying the cruiser, did not seem to play, he really was absolutely sure that he was doing the right thing. It can be assumed that V.N. Fersen's is some form of neurosis or some other form of mental disorder, and that this case should probably be studied from a medical point of view.

But there is no doubt another. The commander of a warship cannot afford such luxury as neurosis, he must be extremely psychologically stable in any situation. V.N. Fersen, alas, was not like that.

One can argue about whether V.N. Fersen Gold weapon with the inscription "For courage" for the breakthrough of "Emerald". But, according to the author, in the future he should not have been appointed to the post of commander of a ship, or, especially, a detachment of warships, as happened in reality: after the Russo-Japanese War, V.N. Fersen commanded the Aurora cruiser, the 2nd mine division, the cruiser brigade, and even the Baltic Fleet battleship brigade. Probably, he should have been left in a “coastal” position, like the commander of a major port, or persuaded to resign.

To be continued ...
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300 comments
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  1. +12
    April 21 2020 18: 12
    Better late than not when. Thank you for continuing the series of articles.
    1. +1
      April 21 2020 20: 57
      Better late than not when. Thank you for continuing the series of articles.

      I read the Japanese article about Tsushima - so they are the starting point of victory, in battle, they put the use of radio on their ships, which made it possible to achieve coherence in battle. When ours had signal flags (pennants), and because of the use of landmines by the Japanese, the signal flags turned out to be completely ineffective in battle.
      The author generally bypassed the use of radio.
      1. +1
        April 21 2020 21: 38
        Quote: lucul
        I read the Japanese article about Tsushima - so they are the starting point of victory, in battle, they put the use of radio on their ships, which made it possible to achieve coherence in battle.


        Quote: lucul
        The author generally bypassed the use of radio.


        The discovery of the Russian squadron is described in a previous article.
        1. +2
          April 21 2020 21: 53
          The discovery of the Russian squadron is described in a previous article.

          It makes no difference, the fundamental mistake of the battle was Rozhdestvensky’s refusal to use the radio.
      2. +2
        April 21 2020 21: 44
        Quote: lucul
        I read the Japanese article about Tsushima - so they are the starting point of victory, in battle, they put the use of radio on their ships, which made it possible to achieve coherence in battle.

        I wonder how something could have been transmitted by Mikasa with a downed mast and, accordingly, with antennas taken down?
        1. 0
          April 21 2020 21: 51
          I wonder how something could have been transmitted by Mikasa with a downed mast and, accordingly, with antennas taken down?

          Judging by the actions of the Japanese, it conveyed quite well.
          Just for comparison - the battle in the Yellow Sea - both ours and the Japanese used the radio, the result is nothing.
          Under Tsushima, Rozhdestvensky ordered to keep complete radio silence, and our sailors also kept it, which was a fatal mistake in the battle.
          1. +2
            April 22 2020 01: 36
            Well, radio was rarely used, just Togo used repetitive ships, which greatly simplified the supply and recognition of signals. What unfortunately did not do ours
            1. +3
              April 22 2020 17: 23
              Quote: Nehist
              Togo simply used repetitive ships, which greatly simplified the supply and recognition of signals. What unfortunately did not do ours

              Rozhdestvensky specially allocated Pearls and Emeralds for the rehearsal service.
          2. +3
            April 22 2020 17: 22
            Quote: lucul
            I read the Japanese article about Tsushima - so they are the starting point of victory, in battle, they put the use of radio on their ships, which made it possible to achieve coherence in battle.

            I don’t know who misled you. Can I link to an article?
            Quote: lucul
            When ours had signal flags (pennants), and because of the use of landmines by the Japanese, the signal flags turned out to be completely ineffective in battle.

            Japanese radio played a big role - as a means of communication between the scouts and the fighting squads of the Japanese. This is true. But as a means of controlling a detachment of ships in a radio battle, it was of little use even in the WWII, not to mention the RPE. And most certainly the radio was not the cause of the defeat of the 2nd and 3rd TOE.
            In fact, the radio is almost inferior to flag signals in terms of information transmission rate. First, you need to communicate the text of the radiogram, then send it in Morse code to the ships, then make sure that they received the order correctly, then give the order for execution ... In the case of flag signals, you must first dial and raise the signal, then wait when other ships rebelled (rehearsed, ie raised the same - it means they saw and understood correctly) and then give the command "Execute".
            Quote: lucul
            Just for comparison - the battle in the Yellow Sea - both ours and the Japanese used the radio, the result is nothing.

            In the battle in the Yellow Sea, ours did NOT use the radio to transmit combat orders for rebuilding.
            1. -1
              April 22 2020 17: 46
              In the case of flag signals, you must first dial and raise the signal, then wait for the other ships to rehearse (they rehearsed, that is, they raised the same, which means they saw and understood correctly) and then give the command "Execute".

              What happened to our squadron after Rozhdestvensky was wounded, and the battleship Prince Suvorov incapacitated? This moment was emphasized everywhere, in all works devoted to Tsushima.
              In fact, the radio almost loses flag signals in terms of information transfer speed.

              Offhand
              https://flot.com/publications/books/shelf/signal/2.htm

              Admiral Makarov also appreciated the prospects of radio communications and widely implemented it in the Navy.
              Can I link to an article?

              I have to rummage, I won’t tell you right away.
              1. +3
                April 22 2020 18: 14
                Quote: lucul
                What happened to our squadron after Rozhdestvensky was wounded, and the battleship Prince Suvorov incapacitated?

                What does this have to do with the issue under discussion? Would radio cure Rozhdestvensky? repelled the shells of the Japanese?
                Quote: lucul
                Offhand

                Excuse me, why link to a general article? What is the use of writing
                Despite the modest successes in training the radio telegraphists of our ships during the campaign of the 2nd Pacific Squadron, they were ready to provide fairly confident intra-squad communication and create radio interference to the enemy.

                They were not ready. You read better about how many radiograms were not received on the English and German ships of the First World War, when the equipment became much more advanced. Do you think Beatty used his own stupidity to transmit orders in signals in the same battle with Dogger Banks?
                Quote: lucul
                Admiral Makarov also appreciated the prospects of radio communications and widely implemented it in the Navy.

                So they were, these prospects. But before the control of a detachment of ships in battle, radio communication has grown in WWII
      3. +4
        April 22 2020 12: 37
        Quote: lucul
        use of radio on their ships

        Doubtful.
    2. 0
      April 22 2020 11: 28
      The author didn’t attach the map, otherwise it would immediately become clear that Ferzen’s insanity came on the evening of May 15.
      Otherwise, why extend your path to the shore by a hundred miles with a hook if you have barely enough coal. And why go at 13 knots, if the economic move is 10 knots, if you, popped FIG knows why, to the north?
      1. +4
        April 22 2020 13: 06
        , Yuri, you have not changed: you will find something to complain about with Andrei.
        Weak to lay out his own story? Criticizing without substantive arguments is easier than telling yourself
      2. +4
        April 22 2020 17: 29
        Quote: Jura 27
        The author didn’t attach the map, otherwise it would immediately become clear that Ferzen’s insanity came on the evening of May 15.

        You will attach, what is the problem? And I don’t even ask how you came to such a "conclusion" - judging by the text below, you absolutely do not understand what you are writing about
        Quote: Jura 27
        Otherwise, why extend your path to the shore by a hundred miles with a hook if you have barely enough coal.

        When Fersen found out about the state of coal pits (just in the evening of May 15), he was on an equal footing from Vladivostok and Vladimir / Olga
        Quote: Jura 27
        And why go at 13 knots, if the economic move is 10 knots, if you, popped FIG knows why, to the north?

        Well, yes, it was necessary to read the literature about the RYAV, to find out that the Japanese are not chasing a ship. And Yura, where did you get the idea that the economic speed of the "Izumrud" was 10 knots? Have you read the book? So I hasten to upset, the real economic speed of the Russian ships of that era could even be very different from the one that was calculated in theory and then ended up in books.
        1. -2
          April 23 2020 04: 48
          [/ quote] Attach you, what is the problem? [quote]

          Or maybe I still get a fee for you for the article?
          You’re the author, so give the layout with the help of the map: this is so much to Stok, so much to Z. Vladimir, so much to Nakhodka, etc. And then everyone will be convinced that Fersen is not quietly mad.
          They are chasing, not chasing, as it can be seen from the smokes on the horizon.
          In all books, the usual economy ship is 10 knots (it was still possible to go at 8 knots, the range increased). There has never been such a thing that the "Emerald" at 13 knots could travel more than 10 knots. This is contrary to the laws of physics.
          1. +4
            April 23 2020 18: 32
            Quote: Jura 27
            Or maybe I still get a fee for you for the article?

            Well, that will be somewhat difficult. Firstly, because I refused the fee specifically for this article in favor of VO, which is currently going through hard times due to the coronavirus. And secondly, the fee is paid for writing articles, and not at all for the author of the article to convince Yura of something27.
            Quote: Jura 27
            You’re the author, so give the layout with the help of the map: this is so much to Stok, so much to Z. Vladimir, so much to Nakhodka, etc.

            Yura, you as always mixed everything up. Why did you suddenly realize that you can make any demands on me as an author of articles? Who do you think you think you can put forward such demands? :)))
            Would you, Yura, go with your requirements ... to the Internet, and make your own website there dedicated to ship subjects. Pay authors a fee - then, and only then you will have the right to demand that they comply with the materials of any of your criteria
            And from me you can demand something in one single case. In the event that I admitted in the article an unsubstantiated, that is, not confirmed by sources or something else statement.
            So, on your question, my conclusions in the article are by no means unfounded. I quoted VV Khromova
            At 18.00 we went on a course leading to a point equidistant from Vladivostok and Vladimir Bay 50 miles from the coast, and there they were about to decide where to go

            That is, I justified that Ferzen did not have any shynesses. He left in the direction of O from the enemy cruisers, and went there after a breakdown for about three hours (roughly from 15.00 to 18.00 roughly) - this was absolutely justified, since the cruiser, which had lost speed, had to choose a course that would lead him as far away from pursuers. Then, after assessing the condition of the coal pits, it turned out that there was very little coal, and the ship was equidistant from Vladivostok and Vladimir Bay. And all this (although I did not write this in the article) is confirmed by the testimony of officers of the Investigative Commission
            Do you disagree with this? It’s not a question, take the map and give the layout: the author is not right, because
            Quote: Jura 27
            from so much to Stok, so much to v. Vladimir, so much to Nakhodka, etc.

            And nothing else, Yura27
            Quote: Jura 27
            They are chasing, not chasing, as it can be seen from the smokes on the horizon.

            Yeah. And if there are no smokes, the cruiser lays down on a different course and in half an hour smokes appear - what shall we do? You can’t run - 13 knots. Take the last and decisive? Yura, do you think at least a little what you write.
            Quote: Jura 27
            In all books, the usual economy ship is 10 knots (it was still possible to go at 8 knots, the range increased). There has never been such a thing that the "Emerald" at 13 knots could travel more than 10 knots. This is contrary to the laws of physics.

            Yura, 10 knots of economic speed for cruisers of the Pearl class appeared as a TZ from "Novik", whose economic speed was just 10 knots. And with Novik, the Germans and ours were very mistaken, because they believed that in the economic course the ship would go under part of the machines (or under two, but I have a suspicion that under one). But Novik under two machines gave out only 8 knots and this did not become his economic speed - it was experimentally determined that his economy drive was 10 knots when two cars pull 75 rpm, and the average one - 52-55 rpm (so that the propeller would turn) ...
            So, I do not remember that someone determined the economic speed of Pearl cruisers by experience. Ships of this type were quite different from Novik - and their real economic speed could be higher and lower than 10 knots. This is the time.
            The second one. Suppose that the economic course of the Emerald was exactly 10 knots. But this speed corresponded to a certain scheme of the machines (I indicated it above for Novik). However, it is far from a fact that the ship could provide such work of the machines - after the breakthrough on May 15, it actually burst the steam line, the salinity in the refrigerators was high and the right car was periodically knocked out until it was completely stopped. That is, it is far from a fact that the cruiser could physically go in the mode of economic progress.
            The third. Coal reserves on the ship could only be estimated. The emerald went at 13 knots, the mechanic had an idea of ​​how much he was spending at that, figured out the reserves, and dividing one by the other he realized that at 13 knots they would reach the shore. It’s not a question, of course, one could give less, a certain amount of coal would save. But it also increased the time before approaching the shore. Remind me about the weather in the morning of May 14? Togo did not immediately venture the destroyers into the sea to withdraw, if that. That is, the increase in transit time with weak cars and a minimum of coal remaining, generally speaking, is a bit skully - the weather will break out, and the cruiser would not have reached anywhere.
            That is why all the arguments about the economic course - nothing more than a theoretical philosophization based on afterglow - on how much coal is left, that the weather did not happen, etc. etc.
            1. +1
              April 24 2020 05: 12
              [/ quote] And secondly, the fee is paid for writing articles, and not at all for the author of the article to convince of something [quote]

              That’s how it is visible, judging by the crap that is often printed here.
              1. 0
                April 24 2020 05: 16
                [/ quote] Why did you get the idea that you can make any demands on me as an author of articles? [quote]

                With the fact that you do not justify your conclusions set forth in the article.
                1. +1
                  April 24 2020 05: 27
                  [/ quote] At 18.00 we went on a course leading to a point equidistant from Vladivostok and Vladimir Bay [quote]

                  Therefore, I wrote that a cuckoo went to Ferzen long before the explosion of the cruiser.
                  That is, why it was impossible to choose a point closer to Stock and away from s. Vladimir?
                  Or, why, it was necessary to go to z. Vladimir, and not in Nakhodka or in the Transfiguration (these are the closest points of the coast, from this very point)? After all, coal was scarce. That is, Fersen intentionally burned the last coal, DEPARTING from Stock, and not approaching it.
                  Having gone to Nakhodka, or to the Transfiguration, the Emerald could contact Stok by radio or coastal telegraph and call for help. Plus, there was still coal.
                  1. +2
                    April 24 2020 05: 32
                    [/ quote] Accept the last and decisive? Yura, you think at least a little what you write. [Quote]

                    Well, yes, military sailors do not exist to fight.
                    Courage (with golden weapons for it) is exclusively an escape from the enemy, taking advantage of speed superiority. Some epic shame (it's about rewarding).
                    1. -1
                      April 24 2020 05: 36
                      [/ quote] So, I do not remember that someone determined the economic speed of cruisers such as Pearls empirically. [quote]

                      Let me remind you right now: the "heroic" escape from the battlefield of "Pearls" and co. to Manila. Distance from Tsushima to w. Vladimir and to Manila see for yourself or suggest?
                      1. 0
                        April 24 2020 05: 39
                        [/ quote] Coal reserves on the ship could only be estimated. [quote]

                        At that time, there was such a procedure: the measurement of coal residues in coal pits - it was a regular procedure, which provided sufficient accuracy.
                      2. 0
                        April 24 2020 05: 42
                        [/ quote] About the weather in the morning of May 14 to recall? [quote]

                        It’s better to remind about the weather on May 16, because on May 14 there is nothing to do with it.
                      3. +1
                        April 24 2020 05: 46
                        [/ quote] bad weather breaks out and the cruiser wouldn’t get anywhere at all. [quote]

                        Yeah, this is in the style of the reasoning of the then officers of the RIF: to z. The weather doesn’t let us reach Vladimir, but to the closer Nakhodka, it will definitely hurt.
                      4. +1
                        April 24 2020 19: 59
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        With the fact that you do not justify your conclusions set forth in the article.

                        He justified Khromov and, already in correspondence with you, a reference to the testimony of the officers. Do not like it - refute it.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Or, why, it was necessary to go to z. Vladimir, and not in Nakhodka or in the Transfiguration (these are the closest points of the coast, from this very point)?

                        It would seem obvious. The find is too close to Vladivostok (there will not be 50 miles in a straight line either), so climbing there is a great risk of running into Japanese ships, which could well patrol, say, at the entrance to Peter the Great Bay. But the most important thing is that, as a convenient landing site near Vladivostok, it, in theory, should have been mined. well, there weren’t any maps of mine production on the Emerald.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Having gone to Nakhodka, or Transfiguration, "Emerald" could contact Stok by radio

                        It was possible to walk in the Transfiguration, but there "Emerald" did not expect anything at all. there was no radiotelegraph or coal, while both could be found in Vladimir and Olga. Well, the capabilities of the Izumrud radio station clearly did not allow contacting Vladivostok from the Transfiguration.
                        So neither Nakhodka nor the Transfiguration of the Emerald were suitable, and - for obvious reasons.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Well, yes, military sailors do not exist to fight.

                        Quite right. Naval sailors exist to achieve the goals of war at sea. Obviously, if "Emerald" entered the battle on May 15, it would only add one more victory to Japan, that is, it would fulfill its goals for her. It is very stupid and more than strange that you cannot understand such elementary things.
                        You can enter the battle without the hope of victory only if there are no other ways, as happened, for example, with Ushakov or Donskoy.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        At that time, there was such a procedure: the measurement of coal residues in coal pits - it was a regular procedure, which provided sufficient accuracy.

                        As always - you are mistaken. Measurement of coal reserves that had an irregular shape, and even during the transportation of coal from one firebox to another, cannot give an exact value. This I am silent about the density of coal.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        It’s better to remind about the weather on May 16, because on May 14 there is nothing to do with it.

                        I say - it’s very simple to talk about it when you know what the weather really was.
                      5. +1
                        April 24 2020 20: 03
                        Yes, I completely forgot
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Let me remind you right now: the "heroic" escape from the battlefield of "Pearls" and co. to Manila.

                        Yura, did you say something there for physics? You are not aware that Pearl machines and Emerald machines are two huge differences, and that Emerald machines are much worse? You do not know that both cruisers had generally comparable operating modes in the battle of May 14? You do not know that in these modes the Emerald had to a priori burn much more coal than Pearls? You do not know that pearls, unlike Emerald, did not run away on May 15, 4,5 hours at full speed? You do not know how coal consumption differs when stokers give full speed from traffic, not only by 10, but also by 18 knots? And what dependence of speed on power do you also not know? Is it that hard for you?
                        Then what are you generally aware of?
                      6. 0
                        April 25 2020 15: 37
                        [/ quote] You are not aware that the Pearl machines and the Emerald machines are two huge differences, and that the Emerald machines are much worse? [quote]

                        Really? Your plate in the post directly contradicts your words: where "I" has more consumption per day, somewhere more from "F", somewhere almost equal costs.
                        And "F" how many hours at night 14/15 went under 18 knots? Unlike "I", which gave approx. 21/22 knots four hours.
                      7. 0
                        April 25 2020 16: 22
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Really? Your post sign directly contradicts your words

                        She does not contradict anything.
                        From May 2 to May 4, Pearl’s coal consumption was higher, but there were artillery exercises and the cruising detachment went into reconnaissance, what did Zh and what did And it’s not known for sure, we just knew that I had a breakdown, so here maybe there’s just different running gear modes. From the 7th to the 10th, the consumption of coal in Emerald was greater, although the pearls ran and clarified both the dreaming balloon and the reconnaissance 12 miles ahead of the squadron. And, finally, after the last loading of coal, the consumption of Emerald is again higher, although here both cruisers seemed to be at the squadron.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        And "F" how many hours at night 14/15 went under 18 knots?

                        Levitsky points out that the speed was reduced from 18 knots to 12 knots, "it seems, around 85 am or earlier." Most likely at midnight, as the engineer of the watch Oleg indicated exactly this time to "reduce the speed to XNUMX"
                      8. 0
                        April 24 2020 22: 08
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The find is too close to Vladivostok (there will not be 50 miles in a straight line either), so climbing there is a great risk of running into Japanese ships, which could well patrol, say, at the entrance to Peter the Great Bay.

                        You seem to have forgotten about Russia, Stormbreaker and Athlete. The condition of these large and dangerous ships could not be reliably known to the Japanese. So early patrolling could be entrusted to a minimum of Kamimura’s squadron, without the risk of suddenly losing all of these same patrol ships ..

                        Stop dreaming already. The Japanese could not send anything to Vladivostok in advance. Everything serious enough for this, it was necessary under Tsushima.
                      9. 0
                        April 25 2020 08: 06
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        So early patrolling could be entrusted to a minimum of Kamimura’s squadron, without the risk of suddenly losing all of these same patrol ships ..

                        Generally not necessary. Armored cruisers of the Japanese could well simply retreat in the event of a wok, in addition, no one prevented the Japanese from sending 2-3 armored personnel carriers to Vladivostok
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Stop dreaming already.

                        Well, yes. I fantasize, our officers fantasized, one Saxahorse cuts the truth of the uterus :)
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Everything serious enough for this, it was necessary under Tsushima.

                        Saxahorse, ay! Tsushima is already over, ours lost. So send - I do not want
                      10. 0
                        April 25 2020 15: 40
                        [/ quote] Justified by Khromov [quote]

                        And how Khromov substantiated that we must go in the opposite direction from the Stock, being at a point equidistant from Stock and s. Vl-ra?
                      11. 0
                        April 25 2020 15: 41
                        [/ quote] who could well patrol, say, at the entrance to the Gulf of Peter the Great. [quote]

                        At night to patrol a line of 150 km and catch one-on-one KRL? You are a dreamer however !!!
                      12. 0
                        April 25 2020 15: 43
                        [/ quote] But the most important thing is that, as a convenient landing site near Vladivostok, it, in theory, should have been mined. [quote]

                        Again violent fantasy - and not enter the bay, sending the boat to Nakhodka is absolutely, really impossible?
                      13. 0
                        April 25 2020 15: 45
                        [/ quote] It was possible to go in the Transfiguration, but there "Emerald" did not expect anything at all. there was no radiotelegraph or coal, while both could be found in Vladimir and Olga. Well, the capabilities of the Izumrud radio station clearly did not allow contacting Vladivostok from the Transfiguration. [Quote]

                        But nothing that of the Transfiguration could be contacted by Stoke on the radio (a range of 100 miles allowed)?
                      14. 0
                        April 25 2020 15: 48
                        [/ quote] So neither Nakhodka nor the Transfiguration Emerald came up, and - for obvious reasons. [quote]

                        Perfect fit, be the commander is not half-crazy Fersen. And even it was not necessary to go into the bays, it was enough to contact Stock on the radio as soon as the range allowed.
                      15. 0
                        April 25 2020 15: 53
                        [/ quote] Quite right. Naval sailors exist to achieve the goals of war at sea. Obviously, if "Emerald" entered the battle on May 15, it would only add one more victory to Japan, that is, it would fulfill its goals for her. It is very stupid and more than strange that you cannot understand such elementary things. [Quote]

                        The strange thing is that nowhere I offered to join the battle "Izumrud" on May 15th.
                        I noted that it is foolish to reward for the courage of a brow who fled from the enemy, taking advantage of the speed advantage. Then, it was necessary to reward Reicenshtein with Grammatchikov (and Schulz at the same time), those who really broke through the battle, through superior forces.
                      16. 0
                        April 25 2020 15: 56
                        [/ quote] As always - you are mistaken. Measurement of coal reserves that had an irregular shape, and even during the transportation of coal from one firebox to another, cannot give an exact value. This I am silent about the density of coal. [Quote]

                        Write complete nonsense - this is a regular way (and the only one accurate) to determine the coal stock and your plate is based on the measurement of coal in the pits. Do you believe her? Or not already?
                      17. 0
                        April 25 2020 16: 01
                        [/ quote] I say - it’s very simple to talk about it when you know what the weather really was. [quote]

                        What's the problem ? The weather on May 16 is good, the barometer does not fall, so in the next half day everything will not change dramatically. Well, in general, if you are afraid of weather changes, then you can never go out to sea, and then suddenly for a storm?
                        In addition, Fernsen was awarded for courage, and he was afraid of some kind of weather. tongue
                      18. 0
                        April 25 2020 16: 43
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        And how Khromov substantiated that we must go in the opposite direction from Stock

                        The need to go to Stock is your personal fantasy, why is Khromov justifying something here? The reasons why it was worth going to Vladimir I set out above
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        At night to patrol a line of 150 km and catch one-on-one KRL? You are a dreamer however !!!

                        Not one KRL, but any light forces that managed to pass after the battle in Tsushima. And why - at night? :)))
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Again violent fantasy - and not enter the bay, sending the boat to Nakhodka is absolutely, really impossible?

                        That is, you propose to force the Emerald (at night?) To cruise at the bay, and send a boat there ... so what? :))) There, the villagers will bow with a map of minefields? :))))
                        Maybe enough already tormenting the unfortunate owl?
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        But nothing that of the Transfiguration could be contacted by Stoke on the radio (a range of 100 miles allowed)?

                        Since when did the Emerald radio station work for 100 miles? :) Share the source of such a stormy imagination.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        I noted that it is foolish to reward for the courage of a brow who fled from the enemy, taking advantage of the speed advantage.

                        Do not get out. I quoted what you wrote
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Write complete nonsense - this is a regular way (and the only one accurate) to determine the coal stock

                        Which, with all its staffing, still does not give an accurate picture, especially during the freelance transportation of coal on the decks of the Emerald
                      19. +1
                        April 26 2020 16: 23
                        [/ quote] The need to go to Stock is your personal fantasy, why is there something to Khromov to justify? The reasons why it was worth going to Vladimir I set out above [quote]

                        Not mine, but ZPR, there was such an order, but the order to go to z. Vladimir was not there.
                        Well, of course, why does Khromov justify the crazy decision? I agree here.
                        And what are these reasons for going in the opposite direction from Stock?
                      20. +1
                        April 26 2020 16: 26
                        [/ quote] And why - at night?: [quote]

                        Well, Fersen, awarded for bravery, was afraid of everything, then the weather, or the mythical enemy, therefore there is a night for special brave men, during which it is quite possible to get to Stock, from the conditional border of s. PV.
                      21. 0
                        April 26 2020 16: 30
                        [/ quote] That is, you propose to force the Emerald (at night?) to cruise at the bay, and send a boat there ... so what? :))) There, the villagers will bow with a map of minefields? [quote]

                        You have all fantasies violent and violent !!! The officer who arrived on the boat contacts Stoke and finds out about the location of the minefields and requests cover from Stoke. This is if you could not contact by radio.
                      22. 0
                        April 26 2020 16: 32
                        [/ quote] Since when did the Emerald radio station work for 100 miles? :) Share the source [quote]

                        Since when it was installed. And how many miles did YOUR radio work on "Izumrud"?
                      23. 0
                        April 26 2020 16: 35
                        [/ quote] I quoted what you wrote [quote]

                        Once again, when and where, did I suggest that the Emerald enter the battle with the enemy during the breakthrough (or generally May 15)? Stop making up nonsense.
                      24. 0
                        April 26 2020 16: 38
                        [/ quote] Which, with all its staffing, still does not give an accurate picture, especially during freelance transportation of coal on the decks of Emerald [quote]

                        Once again, this is a regular, fairly accurate method (the other gave even less accuracy), and you can calculate the coal transported very accurately, even more accurately than measuring coal pits.
                      25. +1
                        April 26 2020 21: 35
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        And what are these reasons for going in the opposite direction from Stock?

                        Yura, Khromov answered this question in sufficient detail, and official documents, and I in my article. But in general it's funny to watch how you are trying to refute me :) "Why didn't you go to Nakhodka, here it is! Hmmm, it didn't work. Why didn't you go to Vladivostok !?" :))))
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        You have all fantasies violent and violent !!! The officer who arrived on the boat contacts Stoke and learns about the location of the minefields and requests cover from Stoke

                        No, Yur, This is all your fantasies violent and violent. Then you scolded what Ferzen was worth, you didn’t save coal, now you advise him to go to Nakhodka at night, hang out at sea until morning, and ask for a map of mine settings by radio (!!!) .... Then I don’t see the point - At least some interesting arguments have been exhausted.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Since when it was installed. And how many miles did YOUR radio work on "Izumrud"?

                        And it is unknown. But at Zhemchuga the maximum recorded range was 95 miles, the radio telegraphs of Aurora were considered the best on the squadron, they knew how to transmit and receive radiograms for 60-70 miles. 100 miles is the maximum receiving distance, if that. And it’s far from the fact that the Emerald station could. And he had not to accept, but to send a radiogram
                      26. 0
                        April 27 2020 07: 12
                        [/ quote] Khromov, official documents, and I answered this question in sufficient detail in my article. But in general it's funny to watch how you are trying to refute me :) "Why didn't you go to Nakhodka, here it is! Hmmm, it didn't work. Why didn't you go to Vladivostok!?": [Quote]

                        Khromov didn’t indicate any reasonable reasons, Ferzen directly violated the order of the ZPR to go to Stoke (obviously at 18-00 on May 15).
                        And I, only considering options for action, - more or less "brave" Fersen. From a point 50 miles from the coast (this is just opposite Nakhodka / Transfiguration), you could go straight to Stoke at night (contacting 60 miles with him by radio) or a less brave option: go to Nakhodka and send a boat there to contact coastal telegraph.
                        And do not need your next crazy fantasies about requesting a map of minefields by radio / telegraph - passages are requested in them. And since there were no minefields (except, directly at Stock), there was enough information about it.
                        It is about 60 miles from Nakhodka to Stok, so it is quite within the range of the radio on "Izumrud".
                      27. 0
                        31 August 2021 10: 47
                        How does he know? Will the card be sent to him by fax?
                      28. 0
                        6 September 2021 09: 17
                        Quote: Vagabung
                        How does he know? Will the card be sent to him by fax?

                        Once again, no maps are needed, you need the position of the aisles. And since there were no minefields, then this will not be needed either.
                      29. -1
                        April 26 2020 21: 20
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Generally not necessary. Armored cruisers of the Japanese could well simply retreat in the event of a wok, in addition, no one prevented the Japanese from sending 2-3 armored personnel carriers to Vladivostok

                        Well you give !! Armored cruisers of the Japanese, a frank third grade, one that is not yet defective but is already somewhere nearby .. I want to remind you how many times they could not develop even 15 knots .. And a fight with the Varyag (poor Chioda died at 14 knots). the breakthrough of the Emerald just described by you (remember who died?). Do you think the Japanese did not understand what threatens the meeting of Chioda with the Thunderbolt? A picture at the level of a Korean who suddenly saw Asama .. Belyaev called Asama an armadillo in the report, however. It is scary and very painful if it comes to the battle.

                        The variant with sending "2-3 BRKR to Vladivostok" is complete nonsense even in the alternative history so beloved by our "Senior Sailor". The Japanese squadron already has one and a half times less large barrels, and then suddenly Togo, just in case, will also withdraw 2-3 first rank ships from battle !?

                        Sorry .. your answer does not count. laughing
                      30. +1
                        April 26 2020 21: 25
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        The option with sending "to Vladivostok 2-3 BRKR" is complete nonsense, even in an alternative history

                        For the most advanced, I repeat - no one bothered to send them AFTER the battle.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Well you give !! Japanese armored cruisers, frank third grade

                        Which they constantly sent to search and reconnaissance of Russian ships. It is a fact:)))
  2. +7
    April 21 2020 18: 32
    Hi Andrew! Welcome back. Glad to meet you again. smile
    1. +3
      April 21 2020 19: 27
      "everyone imagines himself a strategist, seeing the battle from the side ..." (c) the author is controversial.
      1. +7
        April 21 2020 19: 36
        "Well, the truth is born in a dispute." smile And the author is interesting anyway. hi
        1. +3
          April 22 2020 02: 46
          Quote: Sea Cat
          "Well, the truth is born in a dispute." smile And the author is interesting anyway. hi

          I'm actually talking about a quote, not about Andrew! Andrey well done, he writes from the heart.
  3. +3
    April 21 2020 19: 40
    Here, in the sources, big discrepancies begin.

    In general, it would be nice to look at the documents, and not read the fabrications of historians.
    On occasion, I compared British and German documents on the first and last campaign of the "Bismarck" with what historians write - my dear mother: in some places there is such a terry alternative history that just on the way ...
    1. +2
      April 22 2020 17: 30
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      In general, it would be nice to look at the documents, and not read the fabrications of historians.

      those that are at their disposal (reports of the Investigative Commission, etc.) - I looked, but I don’t have any others.
      1. +1
        April 22 2020 17: 46
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        In general, it would be nice to look at the documents, and not read the fabrications of historians.

        those that are at their disposal (reports of the Investigative Commission, etc.) - I looked, but I don’t have any others.

        Yes, it is clear.
        In terms of the fact that you are working with accessible documents - in the end, you write a review paper about the fate of the ship, not the dissertation.
        My post, so to speak, is a general remark ... nothing more.
        1. +5
          April 22 2020 18: 15
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          In terms of the fact that you are working with accessible documents - in the end, you write a review paper about the fate of the ship, not the dissertation.

          That's for sure. I would very much like to dive into the archives, but who will feed the family? :))
  4. +4
    April 21 2020 20: 14
    It’s good that the article cycle has resumed. Respect to the author!
  5. +8
    April 21 2020 20: 24
    Oh, one of the most interesting authors of this resource has returned. Bravo
  6. +7
    April 21 2020 20: 40
    Hallelujah!
    Honestly, I was expecting you to continue, but was afraid to jinx it :))))
    1. +3
      April 22 2020 13: 02
      waiting for you to continue ...

      I think the reason is that "there is a silver lining" (quarantine)))
      And so this is a bezelless state, when debunking the previous "myths" it eats some ...
      1. +4
        April 22 2020 17: 31
        Quote: anzar
        I think the reason is that "there is a silver lining" (quarantine)))

        No, I'm working. despite quarantine. Moreover - generally speaking, I am on vacation, but still work :)
    2. +3
      April 22 2020 17: 31
      Good evening, Ivan! Thank!:)
  7. +5
    April 21 2020 21: 03
    Thank. As always a great article!
  8. +3
    April 21 2020 22: 27
    To be continued ...
    Andrey, as always, is very interesting and tragic. Thank you very much for the article, I look forward to continuing! good
    1. +3
      April 22 2020 17: 33
      Always welcome, thank you for your kind words! hi
  9. +8
    April 21 2020 22: 32
    At last... fellow The Lord heard my prayers smile drinks
    Today, after the fact, to talk about certain actions of the ship commanders is a thankless task. For not having the information that we know now, standing on the bridge of the ship and seeing only what is in front of your eyes and making decisions is a kind of "trash", especially when the lives of hundreds of subordinates depend on your actions. Therefore, quite logical explanations of Fersen's actions deserve a plus, which is already worth it. Yes
    Was Fersen a coward? Looking with whom to compare. Take the same Langsdorf - he still had fuel and, as a result, variability in decision-making, but Fersen had empty bunkers and, moreover, did not shoot himself. This is about the role of the personality in history.
    In principle, I agree with the conclusions. Yours faithfully, hi
    1. +2
      April 22 2020 07: 11
      Take the same Langsdorf - he still had fuel and, as a consequence, variability in decision making
      In Montevideo, three cruisers were really waiting for the Germans to exit, and the path was very long and there was a meeting ahead with major Nevi forces. The British would not let Spee out of sight. When the Langsdorf graters were going with the headquarters on further actions, the option of breaking through the Atlantic was not even discussed. But the commander shot himself because, according to the tradition of the Kaiser fleet, the commander shares the fate of the ship.
      1. +1
        April 22 2020 13: 34
        Quote: Silvio
        But the commander shot himself because, according to the tradition of the Kaiser fleet, the commander shares the fate of the ship.

        Where did you dig it? :)
        The Emden commander Karl von Müller - died in Brunswick on March 11, 1923.
        The commander of the "Königsberg" Max Loof died on September 20, 1950 in Berlin.
        The commander of the "Dresden" Fritz Ludecke died on February 22, 1931 in Reisdorf ...

        The list goes on ...
        1. +1
          April 22 2020 18: 15
          These are the commanders of the ships fully fulfilled their duty. Their naval officer served honestly in relation to his work and his duty. And if he saw that he had acted in the wrong way, he judged himself. Langensdorf would not have held any responsibility for the death of the ship, but he mistakenly got involved in an unnecessary battle in spite of these requirements. Therefore, the Germans knew how to fight and win at sea, and not just die with music and self-drowning.
          1. 0
            April 22 2020 19: 38
            [quote = Silvio] There would be no responsibility for the loss of the ship Langensdorf, but he mistakenly got involved in an unnecessary battle in spite of these requirements. [/ quote]
            At the start of the battle, he considered it necessary: ​​because the Harwood compound was identified as a small cruiser and two destroyers. In view of the geographical location, it was concluded that this was the cover of the convoy and decided to attack ...

            quote = Silvio] Therefore, the Germans knew how to fight and win at sea, and not just die with music and self-inflating. [/ quote]
            In World War II, they mostly died with music, which Raeder warned about right away ....

            ZY And where can you find these very "prescriptions"?
            1. 0
              April 22 2020 20: 34
              And where can you find these same "prescriptions"?
              Presumably in the Bundesarchive. And so it is clear that the raiders were sent to the other end of the ball to drown British traders, and not to look for adventures on their own. The Germans not only died with music, but also defeated their opponents. Bismarck Huda drowned, and the Prince crippled, but did not finish because the order. Sheer also piled on Exeter, but also did not finish the wounded. The Varangian was dying with music, he could not shoot either. to no avail, but for the orchestra to play on the upper deck.
              1. 0
                April 22 2020 21: 33
                Quote: Silvio
                Presumably in the Bundesarchive.

                Then how do you know what is written in them? :)

                Quote: Silvio
                And so it is clear that the raiders were sent to the other end of the ball to drown British traders, and not to look for adventures on their own.

                And what could be better than a convoy when there are many traders in one place and with a weak escort?
                Besides, when you go home ...

                Quote: Silvio
                Bismarck Huda drowned, and the Prince crippled, but did not finish because the order.

                Why didn’t - it is unknown to anyone ... One can only speculate.
                And you have never seen any real "instructions" for "Reynyubung", there is nothing like this written anywhere ... :)

                Quote: Silvio
                Sheer also piled on Exeter, but also did not finish the wounded.

                Two "linders" disappeared from the battlefield?
                1. 0
                  April 23 2020 07: 49
                  And why is it tricky to philosophize, the raiders had the task of drowning importers or convoys with impunity, as you like. To receive holes and damage in naval battles is only in those cases if, as they say, hit. Witnesses were that Lutens deliberately did not pursue the wounded Prince, and Exeter barely hobbled to the base without main artillery.
                  1. 0
                    April 23 2020 18: 15
                    Quote: Silvio
                    Witnesses said that Lutens deliberately did not pursue the wounded Prince.

                    If you read the sources, then make sure that all the evidence is from the category "one woman said" ...
    2. 0
      April 22 2020 14: 29
      Was Fersen a coward?

      Taking into account the fact that during the battle on May 14th the Emerald appeared twice near the wrecked ships (Oslyabya and Alexander) and at the same time did not save a single person from them, you cannot name a desperate brave Vasily Nikolaevich either.
      I think that if he were, for example, in place of the cap. 2 p. Kolomeytsev, it is unlikely that Admiral Rozhdestvensky would have held Tsushima.
      1. +1
        April 22 2020 18: 00
        Quote: Ivanchester
        Taking into account the fact that during the battle on May 14th the Emerald appeared twice near the wrecked ships (Oslyabya and Alexander) and at the same time did not save a single person from them, you cannot name a desperate brave Vasily Nikolaevich either.

        Um what Let's read the description of the author of the "Emerald" actions in the daytime battle on May 14
        According to the report V.N. Ferzen, he sent the "Emerald" to the dying armadillo, when he saw that Oslyabya was in distress: perhaps it was about the moment when the latter began to roll over. In addition to the "Emerald" to the site of the tragedy, the 4 of the destroyer, including "Violent" and "Bravy", also went. They were the first to have time and saved people with might and main when the Emerald approached: from the last one they threw beds, buoys and one whaleboat without rowers, the cruiser itself stopped.

        и
        The Emerald immediately went to the crash site. Approaching the overturned ship (the keel of the “Alexander III” was above the water), the Emerald stopped, and began to throw bunks, circles and other tackle, which the drowning people could hold onto, and in addition began to launch the rowing boat, because whaleboats at that time were either damaged or filled with water on the eve of the battle and could not be used. But at that time, the 2 combat squadron approached the site of the death of the “Alexander III”: the 6 of the armored cruisers of H. Kamimura, including the returned Asama. Of course, the Japanese ships immediately opened fire on the cruiser standing in place, and the Russian squadron could not cover the Emerald, as its terminal ships were already in 2 miles from it, and the distance to the enemy exceeded 40 cables. To honor V.N. Ferzen, the Emerald remained in place until the distance to the nearest Japanese cruiser decreased to the 23 cable, and only then ordered to give full speed. Since, of course, this could not be done all at once, the Emerald was moving closer to the Japanese ships before the 20 cable before it could break the distance and retreat to the main forces of the Russian squadron.

        I would also understand that Fersen generally scored to save the drowning and passed by ... But we do not see this wink
        1. +1
          April 22 2020 21: 34
          So I do not claim that he is a hopeless coward, like a cap. 2 p. Baranova.
          But V.N.Fersen clearly did not reveal a risk appetite either. He seemed to want to save people from Oslyabya, but almost immediately discovered that he allegedly interfered with a certain maneuver of our battleships (which, by a strange combination of circumstances, the destroyers in the same place did not interfere at all) and hastened to leave the place of his death.
          He also began to help the crew of the Alexander, but was afraid to get hit on his ship and left, and as a result, no one survived the Alexander team.
          I believe that after the episode with a breakthrough from the encirclement (which in itself required both courage and decisiveness), Vasily Nikolaevich’s natural cautiousness took on extreme forms, and that’s why he brought his ship to the sad outcome that Andrei described so well in his article.
    3. +3
      April 22 2020 17: 32
      Thank you, Andrew! hi drinks
  10. +5
    April 22 2020 01: 43
    In the end, Andrew made us happy with another article. The material is fully weighed and competently presented. Regarding Fersen’s fears, most likely he was afraid not of the arrival of the Japanese warships themselves, but of the many Japanese fishermen who could detect him and pass him on an instance. In the described period, this was completely real, since in the described period, the Japanese hunted crowds from our shores to the Kamchatka Peninsula
    1. +2
      April 22 2020 17: 32
      Greetings, Alexander!
      Quote: Nehist
      Regarding Fersen’s fears, most likely he was afraid not of the arrival of the Japanese warships themselves, but of the many Japanese fishermen who could detect him and pass him on an instance.

      Easily. But the fisherman needs a lot of time to return to the shores of Japan and transmit information.
    2. 0
      April 22 2020 19: 44
      Greetings! Thanks to Andrey! I forgot the source, which indicated that later investigations carried out to clear the forvayer in the Gulf of Vladimir found anchors that had been wound up to take the cruiser aground, which immediately dismisses the suspicion that Fersen deliberately ran the Emerald aground. Why did he not go to Posiet, not to Olga, but to Vladimir and not even Vladivostok ... The decision was difficult, perhaps if Emerald "were from the local (Vladivostok detachment), then he rushed home, and so ... It is a pity that it happened ... Although "Pearl" is also no better essence ...
      1. +2
        April 22 2020 21: 35
        Quote: volodimer
        I forgot the source, which indicated that later research carried out to clear the forvayer in the Gulf of Vladimir discovered anchors that were wound up to remove the cruiser from the aground, which immediately dismisses the suspicion that Fersen deliberately ran the Emerald aground

        There was an article in "Technology - for Youth", which number I don't remember, but somewhere in the early 90s. Another 120mm gun was raised, the photo was also hi
  11. +4
    April 22 2020 05: 15
    Andrey is sincerely glad to see you back !!!
    With respect and the sea region of our vast country, Vlad!
    1. +2
      April 22 2020 17: 33
      Many thanks, Vladislav!
  12. +9
    April 22 2020 05: 19
    Dear Andrew,
    I am very glad that you finally have the opportunity to return to the continuation of the cycle.
    Thank you very much for the detailed analysis of Ferzen’s actions, it was very interesting to read. I completely agree with many conclusions, and your assumption about the psychological state of Ferzin also seems reasonable.
    Thanks to Japanese sources, it is possible to clarify one of the controversial issues.
    the Japanese refused all attempts to catch up with the Emerald a little later than 12.30, maybe at 13.00. Where, then, in Russian sources, the time is 14.00?
    Perhaps this is taken from the testimony of the Investigative Commission of the navigational officer, Lieutenant Polushkin, who claimed that “the pursuit of the enemy cruisers lasted about 3 hours” and “around 14.00 the enemy cruisers disappeared from sight”. Here we can only assume that the officer, writing down from memory, was inaccurate, or that some other Japanese ships or ships that were mistaken for cruisers pursuing him were seen on the Emerald. It is also possible that Polushkin did not mean the Japanese cruisers themselves, but the smokes that can be seen long enough after the ships releasing them disappeared over the horizon.

    Alexander Sergeevich's words are confirmed by the map from "The Top Secret History of the Russo-Japanese War at Sea" with the plotting of the course of the cruiser "Chitose". This cruiser really lay on a return course to 14:00 Japanese time.

    The difference between Japanese and Russian time there is a little over ten minutes.
    As seen on the map (I post only a fragment, it makes no sense at all, because the site will "squeeze" the image, and you will not really see anything), from 10:15 to 11:56 (Japanese time) the trajectory of the cruiser was an uncertain broken line, but then "Chitose" went on a strict straight line, up to a sharp turn in 2:00 R.M. (14 p.m.) on the reverse course.
    And in the combat report of the commander of the ship it is said that he constantly received radiograms, with the help of which he was guided to the Emerald. The map shows that there was another Japanese ship, probably one of the auxiliary cruisers, which maintained visual contact with the Emerald, and was mistakenly identified by ours as a cruiser of the 6th combat detachment. It was this vessel that directed the Chitose to the Emerald with its radiograms, since the Emerald was not visible from this cruiser.
    1. +3
      April 22 2020 17: 34
      Greetings, dear colleague! hi drinks
      Thanks for the clarification, now everything is clear.
      1. +1
        April 23 2020 03: 13
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Thanks for the clarification, now everything is clear.

        And here, deeply respected colleague, plotting the course "Chitose" when he was chasing "Emerald".

        At the bottom of the scale attached for clarity :-)
        1. 0
          April 23 2020 22: 56
          Dear Valentine, the scale is certainly good, but it was worth indicating in which units. The Japanese use miles somewhere and kilometers somewhere. Well and most importantly, there is not enough compass needle and initial coordinates. With the compass needle of the Japanese, as we recall, all sorts of miracles also happen.
        2. +1
          April 25 2020 09: 22
          Quote: Comrade
          And here, deeply respected colleague, plotting the course "Chitose" when he was chasing "Emerald".

          Indeed, it was as if sake had built up beyond measure :)))))
          1. +1
            April 26 2020 17: 45
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Indeed, it was as if sake had built up beyond measure:

            If they saw "Emerald" with "Chitose", they would not go in zigzags. On the way, Fersen clearly did not deserve the golden weapon.
            He allegedly "broke through", but in fact there was no resistance from the Japanese, which is implied. No one fired at the Emerald, and, accordingly, he did not shoot back.
            Three hours were in full swing, moving away from pursuers who did not actually see the victim.
            So yes, either Fersen was mad there on the bridge after the psychological stress he had received, or he fell into a panic, or simply desperately cowardly and therefore carried off his legs wherever his eyes looked.
            It can be assumed that the rewarding of his gold weapon “For Courage” is political in nature.
            If Fersen had been brave, he would not have been afraid to go to Vladivostok, in order to actually "break through" the enemy's barrier to his native port.
            Tea, the Japanese would not sink him :-)
            1. 0
              April 26 2020 21: 43
              Dear "Comrade" will not deign to answer my questions as usual? What is the scale? Where does the compass look? Our .. European ..
  13. +2
    April 22 2020 08: 14
    Then the commander supposed to establish contact with Vladivostok, and there already act according to the circumstances.

    It turns out that before the cruiser enters the bay of St. Vladimir the crew had no connection with Vladivostok? Or was the radio silence observed by order of the captain?
    1. +7
      April 22 2020 12: 34
      The Telefunken radio stations on the ships of the second squadron had a maximum range of 100 miles.
      As far as I remember, "Izumrud" did not approach Vladivostok closer than 180 °.
      1. +2
        April 22 2020 12: 55
        Do not get it. Thank you for the clarification. hi
        It is only interesting how the destroyers Bravy and Grozny, smaller in size and in coal reserves, reached Vladivostok.
        And the breakthrough of the "so-called cruiser" "Almaz" is also interesting. They began to build it as a "messenger ship for the Pacific Ocean" (in fact, a yacht for the governor in the Far East, Admiral E. I. Alekseev).
        1. +6
          April 22 2020 13: 02
          The smaller ship has less consumption :) By the way, Bravoy ran out of coal 12 miles from Vladivostok and still had to raise the antenna with the help of a kite to contact the base and request help.
          “Almaz” simply did not participate in the battle and crept along the wall. Although, of course, he didn't have much to participate in.
          1. +1
            April 22 2020 13: 05
            A smaller ship has less consumption :)

            Possible. hi And range ...
            1. +3
              April 22 2020 17: 34
              Quote: hohol95
              Maybe. hi And range ...

              Not always. In addition, it greatly depends on the condition of the machines and driving conditions.
              1. 0
                April 22 2020 18: 22
                As well as the quality of coal.
                I read somewhere that the RI fleet did not use coal mined in the country at all. And he bought it from the British. Is there any explanation for such actions? They wrote about the high cost of Russian coal!
                1. +3
                  April 22 2020 20: 19
                  It is simply that Cardiff coal, which was mined in Wales, had the best characteristics for steam engines. Other varieties, in principle, could be used, but the heat was less, there was more ash, which is why the steam power plants did not give the required characteristics.
                  But, for example, in Port Arthur coal from Yantai mines in Manchuria was widely used.
                  1. 0
                    April 22 2020 22: 14
                    On what angle did Russian ships go to World War I then?
                    And the desire that the British wanted to deprive our fleet of mobility would they simply stop selling RI coal?
                    1. +2
                      April 22 2020 22: 22
                      I will not give you the exact answer to this question.
                      But there are a couple of considerations.
                      1) We learned how to mix oil with PMV for coal, thus increasing the productivity of boilers.
                      2) Cylindrical boilers, apparently, were much less demanding on fuel quality.
                      That is, if the supply of Cardiff was critical, then somewhere around fifteen, no more.
                      And again, other grades of coal can be used, just boilers will often have to be cleaned and put up with a slight drop in steam production.
                      1. 0
                        April 22 2020 22: 44
                        A striking example of the blockade of the Black Sea Fleet of the coal mines of Zonguldak.
                        Although coal was mined there, which was not quite suitable for warships, but on it, "Goeben" and "Breslau" arranged the Grand Fleet "Dardanelles wake-up call" in 1918.
      2. 0
        April 22 2020 18: 21
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        maximum range of 100 miles.

        except the Urals, he has much more ...
        1. +2
          April 22 2020 19: 52
          Yes, there was "Marconi".
  14. +5
    April 22 2020 09: 56
    I agree with the conclusions of the author:
    both sides exaggerated the possibilities of the opposite.
    The Japanese felt that it was impossible to catch up with the Russian cruiser and left this occupation unpromising from their point of view.
    The commander of the Russian cruiser, quite reasonably believed that he would be cut off from Vladivostok, and if the cruiser did not arrive there, they would begin searching along the coast (finding a cruiser by the smoke in the bay is not such a futile task).

    The destruction of the cruiser without serious attempts to take aground is of course an unjustified haste, an unforgivable mistake.
  15. +1
    April 22 2020 11: 04
    Moreover, according to V.N. Ferzena: “At first I planned to go to Olga, but the senior officer expressed the opinion that this bay was probably mined to give shelter to our destroyers from the enemy. Having recognized this opinion as solid, Vladimir chose as the closest to Olga, where he hoped, perhaps, to find a telegraph station. ”

    Unfortunately, it is in the bay of St. Olga had the coal stock so needed for the cruiser

    The squadron goes to Vladivostok. Was there information on what was in those parts of the squadron? Where are the radio stations, where are the coal reserves, where are the mines (even without maps).
    And further. If coal is right next to Vladivostok, then after a possible battle with an increased consumption of coal, you will have to give SOS simply because there is no coal. What so that way you have to give up. So isn’t it easier to immediately choose the economic course, turning off all other steam consumers.
    1. +1
      April 22 2020 17: 35
      Quote: Not the fighter
      The squadron goes to Vladivostok. Was there information on what was in those parts of the squadron? Where are the radio stations, where are the coal reserves, where are the mines (even without maps).

      Did not have.
      Quote: Not the fighter
      So isn’t it easier to immediately choose the economic course, turning off all other steam consumers.

      Far from the fact that 10 knots was the cruiser’s economic move
    2. 0
      April 22 2020 19: 19
      Novik, after the battle in the yellow sea, was also unable to reach Vladivostok and was forced to accept the battle at Korsakov. failing to take coal. The Japanese were waiting for him there ...
      “Emerald” also did not go straight to Vladivostok, expecting that a detachment of Japanese was waiting for it on its way.
      The Vladivostok detachment of cruisers left for the Emerald ... But that after landing aground and failures with the removal was blown up earlier. Perhaps if they had waited, they would have saved the ship, but the history of subjunctiveness does not accept.
  16. +2
    April 22 2020 12: 52
    Andrey, I have been waiting for the continuation of your cycle for a very long time, which I have eaten too.
    I am happy that you are with us again. Without you, we have a shortage of materials on the history of the fleet
    1. +1
      April 22 2020 17: 35
      Thank you very much, Svyatoslav! hi
  17. +3
    April 22 2020 13: 03
    Thank you so much for the article. Welcome back! I'll try to insert a photo of "Emerald", which shows how it is overloaded.
    1. 0
      April 22 2020 13: 39
      Quote: VohaAhov
      I'll try to insert a photo of "Emerald", which shows how it is overloaded.

      It’s hard to judge without deepening marks ...
    2. +2
      April 22 2020 17: 36
      And thank you! hi Very good photo
  18. +2
    April 22 2020 13: 32
    Unfortunately, Andrey has a small logical error "Shoot at the enemy entering the bay of St. Olga", because he came to the bay of St. Vladimir.
    And one more thing: "in the future he should not have been appointed to the position of the ship's commander." I can’t judge how correct the author’s conclusion is, I don’t know what the future service will be, but the Ministry of the Navy can understand: there are few strong-willed officers with combat experience, and the ship needs an intelligent commander
    1. +2
      April 22 2020 17: 36
      Quote: vladcub
      Unfortunately, Andrey has a small logical error "Shoot at the enemy entering the bay of St. Olga", because he came to the bay of St. Vladimir.

      Blame :))) Of course, Vladimir
  19. The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  20. +2
    April 22 2020 14: 34
    I absolutely do not understand Russian commanders. If after the battle we barely had enough coal to Vladivostok, then with what fright would the Japanese have had enough? Japanese military power blind? Why did the Japanese chase before Vladik some trifle if the main forces were defeated. Well, a couple of cruisers would come to Vladik. They would gobble up the remaining coal and other resources there and take a joke like the rest. Why didn’t anyone put himself in the place of the Japanese? Why did the Japanese have to do what they could not?
    I now consider, even if it is my personal and incompetent opinion, that even if the 2 TOE had arrived in Vladivostok without any damage, nothing would have changed. Very far Vladivostok from the main theater. The Russians would barely have enough coal to reach the Yellow Sea and immediately return. There is no sense in such military force. The resources of the port of Vladivostok were even smaller than Arthur. And on land, the Japanese are already winning. Some general military blindness in everything.
    1. +1
      April 22 2020 16: 21
      Quote: mmaxx
      my personal and incompetent opinion is that even if the 2TOE came to Vladivostok without any damage, nothing would have changed

      Not at all for several reasons:
      1) The squadron in Vladik makes it possible to continue the war both on land and at sea ...
      2) There is a potential threat to communications ...
      3) This is a trump card in future peace talks ... hi
      Quote: mmaxx
      And on land, the Japanese are already winning.

      far from it ... request
      1. 0
        April 22 2020 16: 34
        1) To the supply areas of the Japanese army far. There will not be enough coal to conduct combat operations there against the Japanese fleet. In another place, our entire fleet is not needed at all. It turns out the same Tsushima. We are at the limit of range, overloaded with coal, etc. The Japanese are at home with everything that they have. Arrived. This is also despite the fact that ours did not surpass the Japanese in the fleet.
        2) No one interfered in the war on communications; Why not? All these operations of Vladivostok cruisers are about nothing. In Vladivostok, the cruisers later could not even be properly repaired. How to repair 2 TOE there? Will Christmas ferocity drive out communication? And the ships will immediately become operational? The 2TE had a bunch of great auxiliary cruisers. Where is the result?
        3) Trump is yes. But the Japanese are amazing realists. The whole manner of the Tsushima battle said that Togo was not afraid that the Russians would pass in some way. And precisely because he and the battleships and cruisers did not have the required cruising range. But his war was planned. Unfortunately.
        4) By May 1905, the Japanese had already thrown out Kuropatkin so much that, probably, only our army retreated so far from Napoleon. Port Arthur surrendered. All - have arrived.
        Trumps at the conclusion of the peace had to be kept somewhere in Kamran, etc.
        1. 0
          April 22 2020 16: 43
          Quote: mmaxx
          1) To the supply areas of the Japanese army far.

          All paths go through the sea or ocean ... Raiders pass on the path is possible ... for example, you can mine roads between the Japanese islands request
          Quote: mmaxx
          This is also despite the fact that ours did not surpass the Japanese in the fleet.

          The EDB 2TOE were stronger than the Japanese armored fleet, and with the addition of 2x KR WOK, the situation is simplified ...
          Quote: mmaxx
          All these operations of Vladivostok cruisers are about nothing

          Only in your opinion request I agree on one thing - it was necessary to conduct more decisively, especially at the beginning of the war, but COM was in the way ... hi
          Quote: mmaxx
          But his war was planned.

          plans for war are often disrupted by the enemy ...
          Quote: mmaxx
          4) By May 1905, the Japanese had already kicked Kuropatkin so far

          Not at all - the railway worked, the resources were there, but Japan has already exhausted these ... request A question of will, no more ... without Tsushima IN2 could continue the war ...
          Quote: mmaxx
          keep somewhere in Kamran or the like

          and there was a base for 2TE? bully
          1. 0
            April 22 2020 17: 05
            Unfortunately, the events showed that the 2nd squadron with such control was significantly weaker than the Japanese fleet. And she didn’t break any plans of the Japanese. Rozhdestvensky also helped the Japanese to the best of their ability.
            Nikolasha could win the war after Tsushima. Russia could throw the Japanese out of the continent. It was necessary to engage in war and find a normal commander. But with what it was, it was simply amazing where the Russian army had been scrambling. And without any blitzkriegs.
            Comrade Lenin wrote that the war was being decided at sea. In Soviet times, this was repeated as a mantra. But this is not so. Everything was decided just on land. There were interests of Japan.
            And it was possible to stand in Kamran for a long time. This is not the basis for war. The farther the squadron, the worse it is)).
            Along the way, the political leadership was just below the plinth. And the Russian commanders are all from there. Therefore, probably, there is little war like Japanese, except for the Second World War, so popular for study. Everything is too clear.
            1. 0
              April 22 2020 17: 11
              Quote: mmaxx
              with such management

              exactly request
              Quote: mmaxx
              Nikolasha could win the war after Tsushima.

              Russia fought ... request
              Quote: mmaxx
              and find a normal commander.

              Kuropatkin is not so bad ... request

              Quote: mmaxx
              Everything was decided just on land. There were interests of Japan.

              but at sea it was possible to help the army by violating the timing of the deployment of the Japanese army and its supply ... alas, the admiral's Russians understood this poorly ... request
              Quote: mmaxx
              And it was possible to stand in Kamran for a long time

              no, decomposition of personnel would begin ...

              Quote: mmaxx
              Everything is too clear.

              and well documented ...
            2. +2
              April 23 2020 17: 02
              "everything was decided on land", perhaps not everything, but% 60 for sure.
              The trouble is that Kuropatkin Mukden lost before the end of the battle and in most battles, Yapov could be blundered, but Kuropatkin actually lost the war in the early days.
              You can read about this in Denikin: "The Way of the Russian Officer"
    2. +4
      April 22 2020 17: 39
      Quote: mmaxx
      I absolutely do not understand Russian commanders. If after the battle we barely had enough coal to Vladivostok, then with what fright would the Japanese have had enough?

      Why not? Unlike our ships stomping across half the world, the Japanese were able to keep their ships' machines in order. And yes, the Japanese went into battle with full coal reserves
      Quote: mmaxx
      I now consider, even if it is my personal and incompetent opinion, that even if the 2 TOE had arrived in Vladivostok without any damage, nothing would have changed.

      You are right in many ways, but not quite. If the squadron miraculously teleported to Vladivostok, then it could withstand the battle with the Japanese with significantly less losses (but could not win it, of course)
      1. +1
        April 22 2020 18: 00
        The question is not a separate battle. And the outcome of the war at sea. Well, or at least bring to the difficulties of supplying the Japanese army. And so ... Well, the Japanese battleships would have moved a little north. They fought with the Russians. And the steamboats both went and would go.
        Yes, and to make at least a current repair to Russian ships after a campaign in Vladik ... this is a big question.
        1. +3
          April 22 2020 18: 17
          Quote: mmaxx
          Yes, and at least make repairs to Russian ships after a campaign in Vladik ...,

          no. Only rest after the campaign, and give battle closer to Vladivostok in order to be able to take the wrecked ships there. There was no chance to win
          1. +1
            April 22 2020 20: 08
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            There was no chance to win

            controversial! 2TOE had 6 modern EBRs - Borodino, Oslyabya and Sisoy - 20 * 12dm / 40 + 4 * 10dm ... squadron move 14uz ... 1 Togo squad had 16 * 12dm / 40 + 1 * 10dm + 6 * 8dm / 40, stroke 15uz. With such a balance of forces, the main thing is the training of personnel and the quality of leadership ... Experience has shown that "not a naval commander" Vitgeft was quite capable of fighting the Japanese with less forces and a lower squadron speed ... that before Kamimura - a detachment as part of the EBR IM1 , Navarin, BRKR Nakhimov, Russia, Stormbreaker is second only in the course, while Asama's experience shows the effect of shells from 12dm / 30 request
            1. +1
              April 23 2020 03: 43
              Russia and Stormbreaker outnumbered the Japanese. They left quite calmly. And Rurik would have left if not for the "golden bullet". With the deteriorating weather, the superiority in the course of the Vladivostok cruisers grew.
              And so ... Counted the boxes, counted the guns, counted the nodes. And how the comrades did not count how commanded and maneuvered Togo. How to organize intelligence, etc., also did not count. Throughout the war, our commanders could only do one thing: they went to the wake.
              1. +1
                April 23 2020 15: 00
                Quote: mmaxx
                our commanders could only do one thing: we went to the wake.

                this is not true about Admiral Witgeft - he was able to organize an active mine setting, actively maneuvering in battle, he understood the role of speed - he even went to unfasten the system - the backlog of Poltava request Another thing - no luck - Togo did not die at a close break, but VKV - alas ...
                1. 0
                  April 23 2020 17: 08
                  I agree: Vitgeft was not a naval commander, but he almost pulled his nose up. An absurd accident and ...
                  1. 0
                    April 23 2020 17: 20
                    Quote: vladcub
                    was not a naval commander,

                    he wrote about himself ... he was a modest man, but very competent in his work, and indeed he wrote stories ... but in reality he is the most successful naval commander of Russia in the steam era - under his leadership, the fleet sank 2EBR, etc. . request
                  2. +3
                    April 23 2020 18: 42
                    Quote: vladcub
                    I agree: Vitgeft was not a naval commander, but he almost pulled his nose up. An absurd accident and ...

                    And what? :))) The Japanese as a result of the battle damaged one single ship, Mikasa. And even that is not fatal. Russians have severe damage to the EDB except for Cesarevich and Victory. At the end of the battle, when the Russians turned away, the Japanese blocked their way to Vladivostok, and on Russian ships there was no coal to Vladivostok.
                    The second phase of the battle, when the Japanese crawled along the ranks of the Russian EDBs and, in theory, were supposed to grab the lyuli from the heart, the ratio of hits in Russian / Japanese ships was almost 10 to 1. That is, on average, the Japanese hit 5 shells on one of ours, but in the second phase, their accuracy has improved, but ours has deteriorated.
                    1. 0
                      April 23 2020 19: 45
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      And even that is not fatal.

                      Seriously ? count the number of operating guns of the Civil Code at the time of the end of the battle at the squadrons?
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      The second phase of the battle, when the Japanese crawled along the ranks of the Russian EDB and, in theory, had to snatch the lyule from the heart,

                      VKV created the situation! Compare with Tsushima when the ZPR introduced a heap squadron into battle request
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      but in the second phase their accuracy improved, but ours deteriorated.

                      here it’s certainly the fault of more than one VKV request
            2. +1
              April 23 2020 18: 38
              Quote: ser56
              debatable!

              Undoubtedly.
              Quote: ser56
              With this balance of power, the main thing is the training of personnel and the quality of leadership ...

              Rozhdestvensky’s training was higher than that of Witgeft - statistics about getting into the Japanese to help you. On the 6th EDB of Rozhestvensky during the first 15 minutes of the battle, not being able to operate artillery on the entire side, they threw the Japanese almost as much as the 6th EDB of Vitgeft hit the Japanese for all 4 hours of the active phases of the battle in ZhM
              Quote: ser56
              Experience has shown that "not a naval commander" Vitgeft was quite capable of fighting the Japanese with smaller forces and lower squadron speed ...

              Yes, the Japanese did not yet learn how to shoot as well as in Tsushima.
              1. 0
                April 23 2020 19: 49
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Rozhdestvensky’s training was higher than Vitgeft’s

                who argues, the conditions were different - the besieged fortress and squadron on the campaign, but the implementation of this training in Tsushima and the Yellow Sea does not bother you? And the implementation is just the commander ... request

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                unable to operate the artillery of the entire board

                and what prevented? hi
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                They didn’t learn how to shoot as well as in Tsushima.

                hell were different factors, incl. and notorious shells
                1. +2
                  April 24 2020 09: 09
                  And what should bother me? What in LM in the Japanese hit 35-38 shells, and in Tsushima -230?
                  Both in Tsushima and in ZhM Togo was greatly substituted. But the Witgeft squadron could not provide the required number of hits, and Rozhestvensky could, only because of the weakness of the Russian shells it did not work. Shoot Rozhdestvensky shells in 1907 after the loop of Togo with a probability of 90%, Mikas would be knocked out, and Togo would be killed.
                  By and large, the difference was that the Japanese shot at Tsushima much more accurately, and their shells had great destructive power. And that’s all. And yes, in fact, Wittgeft still lost the battle, his death did not affect anything. And the smaller losses of Wittgeft are due only to the lower accuracy of the Japanese
                  1. +1
                    April 24 2020 13: 24
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    And what should bother me?

                    Togo’s LM squadron was on the verge of loss of combat effectiveness - more than half of the main guns were out of order, the flagship was noticeably damaged ... this wasn’t in Tsushima ... and compare the losses of 1 and 2 TOE from MN attacks after the battle ...
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    only because of the weakness of the Russian shells did it give nothing

                    an old tale that is not confirmed - ours broke through the GK tower from the Japanese - the Japanese could not ... hi
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    and their shells had great destructive power

                    on non-armored structures ...
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    And yes, in fact, Wittgeft still lost the battle, his death did not affect anything.

                    you move away from the facts - it was the death of VKV due to a pair of varnish shots that led to a temporary loss of controllability of 1TOE!
                    By the way - then the confusion began, as after the afternoon battle in Tsushima request
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    And the smaller losses of Wittgeft are due only to the lower accuracy of the Japanese

                    you isolate one factor, but don’t see WHY there were fewer hits - the VKV did not allow itself to be shot as if in a dash, but ZPR allowed it! After he completed the loop of Togo, would he give him at least 12 bonds — who knows, and if he had given 14, then the result would almost certainly have been different ... ... request
                    1. +1
                      April 24 2020 20: 30
                      Quote: ser56
                      Togo’s LM squadron was on the verge of loss of combat effectiveness - more than half of the main guns were out of order

                      I really didn’t know that 5 is more than half of 16 :))) The Japanese lost exactly 5 12-dm guns in the battle in the BM. Russian ships received only slightly less damage. Although only one gun went out of order, and even then at night, the Retvisan bow tower was jammed and out of order, and at Peresvet it was badly damaged and only shot from time to time.
                      But the most important thing is that fighting efficiency is determined not by the number of guns, but by the fire performance. So, in the BM battle, the Japanese EDB fired about 5 times more shells despite the loss of XNUMX guns than in Tsushima. Such is the loss of combat readiness of the Japanese :))))
                      Quote: ser56
                      in Tsushima this was not

                      Yes, in Tsushima, the Japanese trunks did not burst. Which did not stop them with a smaller number of shells to achieve a much greater result.
                      Quote: ser56
                      an old tale that is not confirmed - ours broke through the GK tower from the Japanese - the Japanese could not ...

                      Again three errors in each word. First, ours didn’t break through any tower, and secondly, you confuse armor penetration with damage. In Tsushima, 4 shells flew into Mikasa's casemates, and only in ONE case the gun was disabled - when the Russian shell hit the gun directly. The Japanese did not penetrate the armor, but rather effectively disabled Russian artillery. already disassembled 100500 times, only for you this is a revelation.
                      And yes, the failure of 5 guns of the GK at Togo in the LM is not the merit of Russian artillery
                      Quote: ser56
                      you move away from the facts - it was the death of VKV due to a pair of varnish shots that led to a temporary loss of controllability of 1TOE!

                      The problem is that by the time Vitgeft died, the Russian squadron was already defeated. Its damage prevented the passage to Vladivostok, and the Japanese blocked their path, while the overwhelming fire advantage was on the side of the Japanese.
                      Quote: ser56
                      you isolate one factor, but do not see WHY there were fewer hits - the VKV did not allow itself to be shot as in a dash

                      If you had given yourself the trouble to read at least something about the battle in the LM, you would know that the merits of the VKV are not there. This Togo in the first part of the battle was very afraid of rapprochement with the Russian squadron, and sought to shoot it from afar. Witgeft wisely took advantage of this, no words, but he didn’t make such a gift to Rozhdestvensky. By Tsushima, he was no longer afraid of clinching with Russian ships.
                      1. 0
                        April 24 2020 21: 04
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I really didn’t know that 5 is more than half 16 :)

                        I embellished in the heat of the moment feel but you are not an angel:
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Russian ships received only slightly less damage. Although only one weapon failed, and even then at night,
                        1 is not much less than 5? : request

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        So, in the battle of ZhM, the Japanese EDBs, despite the loss of 5 guns, fired shells about one and a half times more than in Tsushima.

                        throwing shells to no avail - spoil guns ... one of the hypotheses of the GC exit is overheating ...
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        First, ours didn’t break through any tower,

                        even fuji? bully
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        while the overwhelming fire advantage was on the side of the Japanese.

                        bastardly, we start from the beginning ... request 16-5 = 9, 24 -1 (Sevastopol, before the battle) - 2 Retvizan = 21 ...
                        you have strange arithmetic ... bully
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        If you would give yourself the trouble to read at least something on the battle in ZhM

                        read and understand this is different ... request I had the honor to discuss with the author of a famous book about this fight ... feel
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You would know that the merits of the VKV are not there

                        Yes, I noticed - that there is no merit of the VKV in everything - and the EDB stumbled upon mines due to disobedience of Ivanov, etc. bully
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Witgeft wisely took advantage of this, no words

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        then the merits of the VKV are not there

                        you already decide ... hi
                      2. +3
                        April 24 2020 22: 23
                        Quote: ser56
                        1 is not much less than 5?

                        1 and two more 2 gun turrets, which practically could not fire at the enemy.
                        Quote: ser56
                        even fuji?

                        Did Fuji have a tower? crying
                        Quote: ser56
                        16-5 = 9, 24 -1 (Sevastopol, before the battle) - 2 Retvizan = 21 ...

                        "Peresvet" where did you go?
                        Two large shells hit the bow tower and damaged the horizontal rotation drive.
                        That is, the guns, as it were, are intact, but it’s impossible to direct them.
                      3. 0
                        April 25 2020 15: 06
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Did Fuji have a tower?

                        good - barbet laughing
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        only you can’t direct them.

                        even taking them into account -9: 19 - it doesn’t smell like fire superiority ... request
                      4. 0
                        April 25 2020 15: 56
                        Quote: ser56
                        good - barbet

                        The cap of the barbet. If you believe Belov’s monograph from 76 to 152 mm thick. So-so achievement.
                      5. +1
                        April 25 2020 08: 40
                        Quote: ser56
                        bastardly, started from the beginning ... request 16-5 = 9, 24 -1 (Sevastopol, before the battle) - 2 Retvizan = 21 ...
                        you have strange arithmetic ..

                        No, you just don’t want to count. At the beginning of the battle, the Japanese had 16 * 305 mm and 1 * 254 mm versus 15 * 305 mm and 8 * 254 mm, that is, from your point of view, the fire advantage was completely ours. But in fact, both our and Japanese heavy guns fired a comparable number of heavy shells, but the Japanese still had more - 636 versus 568. The Japanese reached 65 hits, we are 16. One in four.
                        But the problem is that in the second phase of the battle, when there was a rapprochement, and when the Japanese had their guns out of order, the number of hits was 6 on Japanese ships and 45 (!!!) on Russians. That is, in short (when the fighting distances were reduced from 45 to 23 cables and less) the Japanese achieved 7,5 times more hits! That is, the ITOE could not realize its superiority in the number of heavy guns from the word "in general," the Japanese, in fact, beat up our ships, and they almost did not answer. Although we had more heavy weapons
                        Therefore, a comparison of the number of guns is generally meaningless in terms of assessing the firepower of squadrons.
                        Obviously, even if we assume that by the time of the VKV death, the number of hits in Russian ships was reduced by a multiple of the lost guns (17/12 = 1,4 times), but this is not so, then in this case, while maintaining the accuracy of the Russians at the same level , the Japanese were able to bring about 5,3 times more shells into Russian ships than they would receive.
                        If this is not clear, and you continue to repeat about the "almost lost combat capability" of the Japanese squadron - well, then I will finally understand that for you this is a matter of faith and not knowledge.
                        Quote: ser56
                        even fuji?

                        Fuji did not have towers, but there were barbets covered with 152 mm armor plates. And yes, Russian shells pierced the armor at 178 mm inclusive. There were no armor penetrations above the 178 mm EMNIP. Sense something.
                        Quote: ser56
                        read and understand this is different ..

                        Well take a look at the maneuvering schemes
                        Quote: ser56
                        I had the honor to discuss with the author of a famous book about this fight ..

                        It would be better to work with documents, honestly. You are constantly discussing with me, no use.
                        Quote: ser56
                        Yes, I noticed - that there is no merit of the VKV in everything - and the EDB stumbled upon mines due to disobedience of Ivanov, etc.

                        In general, yes.
                        Quote: ser56
                        you already decide ...

                        Everything has been determined for a long time - in my LM cycle. I believe that Witgeft maneuvered quite adequately. But he could only react to Togo’s actions, and Togo made many more mistakes in LM than in Tsushima — hence the difference in evaluating the maneuvering results.
                        And yes, Witgeft’s merit in undermining the 2nd EDB is not.
                      6. 0
                        April 25 2020 15: 24
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        about from your point of view, the fire advantage was completely ours

                        purely arithmetic - 17:23 - do not agree? excluding SC ...
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        but the Japanese are still more - 636 against 568.

                        So what? what does this have to do with the number of trunks?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        At the same time, the Japanese reached 65 hits, we are 16. One to four.

                        Japanese famous masters of deception - their weapons were destroyed from our hits ... request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        about is short (when the battle distance was reduced from 45 to 23 cables or less), the Japanese achieved 7,5 times more hits

                        this contradicts common logic - don't you find? feel
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        That is, the superiority in the number of heavy guns ITOE could not realize from the word "in general", I

                        this is true, but you forgot one nuance - the Russian admiral was able to create a situation where the squadron could do this - but ZPR put his commandants in a deliberately bad situation request That the Russians fired poorly and there is a share of the guilt of the VKV, but this is another ... request

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Therefore, a comparison of the number of guns is generally meaningless in terms of assessing the firepower of squadrons.

                        this scientific discovery must be written in the tablets of stupidity! bully
                        I agree with one thing - this is an important factor, but not the only one - the training of both the commandants and the admiral is important ...
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You will continue to repeat about the "almost lost combat capability" of the Japanese squadron - well, then I will finally understand that for you this is a matter of faith and not knowledge.

                        your opinion is important only for you ... request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Fuji did not have towers, but there were barbets covered with 152 mm armor plates.

                        Does it change the essence? Fuji was on the verge of an explosion ... one gun was out of order ...
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It would be better to work with documents, honestly

                        what for? I am not a historian and do not write on these topics ... request but I know enough to observe how one half-truth is replaced by another ... request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In general, yes.

                        Another bike ... VKV is a miner by profession, he wrote books on mine business ... it was he who sent Ivanov to the production, but nothing to do with ... request Moreover, he specially ordered more than once ... I note - further in his career Ivanov did not shine ... request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But he could only react

                        if not a secret, what else could he do? The route was known in advance to everyone, his speed was less ... to tackle a la ZPR with two columns before the battle?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And yes, Witgeft’s merit in undermining the 2nd EDB is not.

                        nonsense...
                      7. 0
                        April 25 2020 15: 52
                        Quote: ser56
                        this is true, but you forgot one nuance - the Russian admiral was able to create a situation where the squadron could do this - but ZPR put his commandants in a deliberately bad situation

                        It was created not by the Russian, but by the Japanese admiral. It wasn't Witgeft who made Togo slip past his ships 10 miles
                        Quote: ser56
                        Japanese famous masters of deception - their weapons were destroyed from our hits ...

                        Blessed is he who believes. Who wants to know the truth - looks at the photo and sees. I'm not talking about the fact that the Japanese lied only in the official Meiji, they wrote a secret story strictly for official use.
                        Quote: ser56
                        this contradicts common logic - don't you find?

                        "Logic is the enemy of the historian." There is no need to adjust the story to what seems logical to you.
                        Besides ... There are simply no other options. Even assuming the extreme case that the Japanese lied to us in everything, and that all 16 Russian hits fell in the second part of the battle, it still has 16 to 45, despite the fact that the facts of getting into our EDB were recorded on Russian ships, and not on Japanese ones. And even in this case, the Japanese at the end of the battle obviously exceeded us in firepower, even with the loss of 5 guns.
                        Quote: ser56
                        this scientific discovery must be written in the tablets of stupidity!

                        I understand that it’s hard to part with the usual cliches. But still, sometimes you need to turn on the head. You are used to reducing everything to the number of trunks, and do not want to abandon this error - you are comfortable in it. Therefore, the very obvious thing - that it is not the number of guns that is important, but the number of hits from these guns, is categorically beyond your strength.
                        Quote: ser56
                        Your opinion is only relevant to you.

                        Not only that, but that is not the point.
                        Quote: ser56
                        Does it change the essence? Fuji was on the verge of an explosion ... one gun was out of order ...

                        The same can be said for Mikasa. Four hits in the casemates, armor pierced several times. The Japanese stored shells at the guns, had a reserve so as not to carry it far, if it all detonated ... But it did not detonate. Never. And only one weapon failed. And if we had normal shells, then the story of Iwate, where one shell from Rurik knocked out 3 152-mm guns at once and killed 40 people would be the norm. Rurik fired, apparently, with old shells.
                        Quote: ser56
                        what for? I am not a historian and do not write on these topics.

                        You just chose a version of the story that is comfortable for you and you don’t want to know anything else.
                        Quote: ser56
                        Another bike ... VKV miner by profession, wrote books on the mine business ... it was he who sent Ivanov to the production, but nothing to do with ..

                        I described this moment in sufficient detail if you yourself do not want to mess with documents. Well, he did not order Witgeft to put up barriers in the place where the Japanese ships went.
                        Quote: ser56
                        if not a secret, what else could he do?

                        The question is not what he could do. Witgeft as a naval commander proved to be excellent in battle, I even admire him. Nevertheless, he merely used Togo's mistakes. ZPR, apparently, still forced Togo to make a mistake. So to say that VKV was superior to ZPR is impossible.
                        In both cases, the Japanese had the initiative, and the fact that Togo was much more stupid in GM than in Tsushima should not be credited to the VKV.
                        If very briefly, then Togo in LM was afraid to get close, depicting the crossing of T at a distance of 6-7 miles and lost time, and then for some reason passed by the Russian squadron, being between her and Arthur. What he then had to catch up, substituting under our fire, is precisely the result of his mistakes, and not the merit of Witgeft
                      8. 0
                        April 25 2020 16: 09
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It wasn't Witgeft who made Togo slip past his ships 10 miles

                        By no means, as far as I remember, there was damage to the Japanese request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I'm not talking about the fact that the Japanese lied only in the official Meiji, they wrote a secret story strictly for official use.

                        You have confirmed my thesis, no more ... request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        "Logic is the enemy of the historian." There is no need to adjust the story to what seems logical to you.

                        an increase in hits with a decrease in firing distance is a commonplace, but for Russians, this logic does not work? bully
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Besides ... There are simply no other options.

                        Of course, Russians fell at a great distance, but stopped at a shorter distance ... Russia is the birthplace of elephants - the only option ... hi I’m doing a little physics, and when I find such a disagreement with logic, I’m just happy (very rarely request ) - there is an opportunity to really find something new ... feel But our historian does not need riddles ... bully

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Well, he did not order Witgeft to put up barriers in the place where the Japanese ships went.

                        1) he did not have the right to officially place in neutral waters ... request
                        2) Think about why COM took up perikidny shooting, and did not put mines on the approaches to the shooting - and he was advised ...

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Witgeft as a naval commander proved to be excellent in battle, I even admire him.

                        I absolutely agree, alas, such a point of view is rare drinks
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In both cases, the Japanese had the initiative, and the fact that Togo was much more stupid in GM than in Tsushima should not be credited to the VKV.

                        you contradict yourself again - VKV was able to take advantage of mistakes, ZPR - on the contrary!
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Togo. ZPR, apparently, still forced Togo to make a mistake

                        even in this case, ZPR made it even worse with his bunch, he shouldn’t have to lose his turn from 11 knots, but give at least 12 Borodinians, and better 14 - the rest would have pulled themselves up if possible ...
                      9. 0
                        April 25 2020 18: 46
                        Okay i think it's time to finish
                        Quote: ser56
                        By no means, as far as I remember, there was damage to the Japanese

                        I won’t even ask what kind of damage the Japanese could make them 10 miles behind the Russian squadron :)))
                        Quote: ser56
                        You have confirmed my thesis, no more ...

                        So far I have confirmed only one thesis - that if you do not like some facts, you ignore them. Your thesis that the Japanese lied is not confirmed by anything other than your desire that it be so. When you are told that in addition to officialdom (which, of course, hides the inconvenient for many Japanese people), their damage is confirmed by internal documents for official use, you simply ignore it
                        Quote: ser56
                        an increase in hits with a decrease in firing distance is a commonplace, but for Russians, this logic does not work?

                        The growth of hits with decreasing distance is commonplace only, ceteris paribus. But the conditions were not equal - it is known that a ship that is subjected to shelling loses accuracy. You don’t even think about the accuracy of the Russian commandants who could spoil 45 hits with heavy shells. You know that with decreasing distances, accuracy increases - and the rest does not bother you :))))
                        Quote: ser56
                        Of course, Russians fell at a great distance, but stopped at a shorter distance ... Russia is the birthplace of elephants - the only option ...

                        For you - yes, because, I repeat, instead of understanding and looking for logic in seemingly illogical facts, you ignore these facts.
                        Quote: ser56
                        I’m doing a little physics, and when I find such a disagreement with logic, I’m just happy (very rarely

                        All physics after wave-particle duality is a mismatch with logic. But you are somehow strange doing it, right word. Physicists, however, were smart enough to admit what they could not explain, not to ignore it.
                        Quote: ser56
                        he had no right to officially place in neutral waters ...

                        Could order unofficially, no problem. But - he didn’t order, otherwise he wouldn’t play indignation with the arbitrariness of the minzag commander - there was no one to play before, that would make sense. And indeed, if all this had been conceived in advance, the explanations would have been completely different.
                        Quote: ser56
                        you contradict yourself again - VKV was able to take advantage of mistakes, ZPR - on the contrary!

                        ZPR forced Togo to make a mistake, and took advantage of it - Togo Loop. The VKV did not force Togo, but also took advantage of his mistake when he was forced to catch up with the Russians. Where did you see the contradiction?
                      10. 0
                        April 25 2020 21: 04
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        what kind of damage could the Japanese make them

                        propose to consider Togo a fool?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        that the Japanese lied, is not confirmed by anything

                        Seriously? they lied about the sinking of the EDB, about getting into the trunks, but they couldn’t tell about the number of hits ... you have funny logic ... request
                        .
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You just ignore it

                        Well, yes, they don’t lie in secret documents ... laughing
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        it is known that a ship that is under fire loses accuracy.

                        but among the Japanese it was growing ... bully
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You ignore these facts.

                        by no means - just the facts must be able to verify ... request we are talking about a turret GK - a decrease in their accuracy is probably more likely at long distances - due to violation of sighting lines due to shaking volleys or hits ... request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        All physics after wave-particle duality is a mismatch with logic.

                        I see no reason to discuss that you don’t understand ... request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But you are somehow doing it oddly, right of words

                        you don’t even know what I'm doing, but giving grades is funny ... bully
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But - he didn’t order, otherwise he wouldn’t play indignation with the arbitrariness of the minzag commander - there was no one to play before, that would make sense.

                        you are mistaken - VKV was an experienced staffman and was able to translate arrows!
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And indeed, if all this had been conceived in advance, the explanations would have been completely different.

                        It was the VKV that ordered Ivanov to go on an active staging!
                        and the roots of everything that is said about VKV here:
                        N.O. von Essen:
                        “Now the late Admiral Wilhelm Karlovich Witgeft was an honest and well-intentioned person, a tireless worker, but, unfortunately, his work was always stupid, and always all his orders led to all kinds of misunderstandings and even misfortunes. Having served in the Navy for many years, Admiral Wittgeft was not a sailor at all, let alone a military man. In childhood, as he himself told, his father intended him for missionary work, and perhaps he would be more capable of this than for maritime service, since he could not be denied the possession of the word of mouth and a pen. Witgeft got into the maritime service as if by misunderstanding, and all his service was a complete misunderstanding. Consisting for several years as chief of staff at Admiral Alekseev ... Vitgeft enjoyed great confidence from Admiral Alekseev because of his hard work and tirelessness; but the same Admiral Alekseev constantly argued with him and was angry for his views and judgments, and Vitgeft was stubborn and intractable, and these two qualities, I think, were the main reason for his influence on the governor. Among the personnel of the fleet, Admiral Witgeft did not enjoy sympathy. On the contrary, he was mistrusted and even hostile. Everyone knew that only thanks to the stubbornness and folly of Witgeft, our inpatients in Korea and Shanghai were not promptly warned and withdrawn, and with the outbreak of war, we thus lost the Varangian and Korean and lost our participation in the Manjur war (hospital in Shanghai ), and also lost transport with military and other supplies ("Manjuria"), which was going to Arthur before the war and taken by a Japanese cruiser. Witgeft, stubbornly denying the possibility of declaring war, did nothing to timely recall the inpatients and warn the transport of the political situation. Finally, the unfortunate attack for us by the Japanese destroyers on the night of January 26-27 can also be partly attributed to Admiral Witgeft’s fault. ”
                        gossip and speculation raised to absolute ... Essen about a broken machine 12 dm guns is also categorical?

                        Well, I recommend a discussion:
                        "Telegram .... [everything as usual - Sergey] .... May 4, 1904, No. 9 (received in Mukden on May 6)

                        After ascertaining the nature of the movement of the enemy’s large vessels in a week, he took advantage of the absence period near the destroyers and the cloudiness, on May 1 he sent the Amur, under the escort of 6 destroyers walking in front with trawls, to place a fifty-minute mine can across the usual path of enemy ships, in the distance from 10 to 11 miles offshore, two miles east of the gauge.
                        "Cupid" performed brilliantly the order <...> The mines were placed 11 feet below the low water level, with the expectation of an explosion, closer to the keel.

                        The following is a description of paint disruptions. But about Ivanov's insubordination - not a word, on the contrary! "
                        http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=281986
                      11. 0
                        April 25 2020 21: 04
                        Report from the commander of the Amur mine transport to the head of the coastal defense detachment, Rear Admiral Loshchinsky. June 4, 1904
                        Based on the resolution of Your Excellency on the headquarters of Temporary I.D., the senior flagship and Commander of the Pacific Squadron dated May 3 of this year, No. 159, I’m reporting that, since April 26, I’m fully prepared for an immediate exit to the sea for mine laying banks and having received on May 1 at the beginning of 2 o’clock in the afternoon favorable information about the position of the enemy ships blocking us, at 2 hours 25 minutes in the afternoon, with the permission of Your Excellency, anchored and set sail, having 50 ball mines prepared. Having passed the boom and other barriers of the raid, he entered the line of the exit gauge, where destroyers with trawls were waiting for me, which had indicated their place in the camp formation beforehand.
                        1st pair, from the destroyers "Brave" and "Slender" at the beginning of the exit, and 2nd from the destroyers "Fast" and "Angry", at a distance of 2 miles south of the first pair, along the same exit line. The destroyers "Attentive" and "Enduring" had no trawls to guard the detachment assigned to me. Having entered after the first pair, he raised his signal "to have 10 knots of travel"; thereupon, fearing that the deeper-seated destroyers of the 1st detachment might run into enemy mines, I ordered them to enter my wake. The front pair of destroyers with a trawl at this time moved southward, at a speed of about 5-6 knots, as previously agreed. Abeam of the enemy fire-ship, which sank near the reef of the White Wolf Bay, the trawl near the destroyers "Brave" and "Stroiny" burst; Immediately, with a signal, he ordered them to remove the trawl and go ahead of the 2nd pair of trawling destroyers for reconnaissance and illumination of the part of the horizon hidden from me beyond the Liaoteshan Peninsula, while he continued to follow the same course behind the trawl of the 2nd pair, having raised the signal to them "have 10 knots go ".
                        Soon, along the passage of the parallel of Cape Liaoteshan, the trawl of the second pair of destroyers also burst. I ordered them to remove the trawls and go forzail. With a slight haze ahead, on the horizon, and not seeing the enemy ships, he gave full speed, raised the signal of 17 knots, having a course along the exit alignment. Having passed 6, and then 8 miles from the Port Arthur lighthouse, that is, approximately the place indicated for me for setting, I decided to take advantage of the circumstances favorable to me and put the mine bank further, namely, at a distance of 100-110 cables from the Golden Mountain , where, according to my observations, lately large enemy ships blocking us most often stayed, and therefore passed further and, at a distance of 10 miles from Port Arthur lighthouse, raised the signal: "suddenly turn everyone to the left by 8 points", i.e. e., on the course Ost. On this course, I lay two miles, after which, upon a signal, everyone suddenly turned 8 points to the right, again, together with the destroyers, lay down on a course parallel to the exit alignment, reduced the speed to 6 knots and ordered the destroyers to stay ahead of the transport. Upon the execution of the last signal by the destroyers, he began laying a minefield.
                        When setting the second half of the third dozen mines, smoke was seen on the left beam, and then, with a slightly bursting haze, the silhouette of the ship; at the same time, Japanese telegrams began to be received on the wireless telegraph. I believe that they were big cruisers who, before my departure, retired to SO and, obviously, were now returning to the view of Port Arthur to the place where they always kept.
                        Putting all 50 minutes, with which everyone got up well, along a 12 '/ cable line, across the course of the enemy ships, turned jointly to W. Immediately after turning to the next course, I again saw smoke in front of the bow. I believe it was smoke from the battleship squadron holding onto Liaoteshang. The presence of enemy ships almost abeam with me gave me confidence that I was not mistaken in choosing a place for laying a mine bank.
                        Having moved away from the place of laying mines for 2 miles and considering himself at the exit alignment, he lay down on it, indicated the change of course to the destroyers with a signal and went back to Arthur. With a signal, the destroyers of the 1st detachment received an order to go into the wake of the Amur, and the destroyers of the IInd detachment were in front of them. The whole return trip was in full swing. Having come to the sight of Port Arthur, he released the destroyers into the harbor, and he raised the signal "orders are fulfilled." At 5 hours 25 minutes in the afternoon, I anchored and moored in the same place.
                        The construction of this minefield, which yielded such quick and great results as the death of two first-class enemy battleships, imposes on me a moral obligation to ask for petitions from Your Excellency to reward the officers and crew of the ship entrusted to me for their youthful work, performed with special calm, impeccable endurance and rare zeal from each individual.
                        The unity of spirit in striving to do the work so that it would serve the benefit and glory of the beloved Monarch and Russia and would be retribution to the enemy for "Petropavlovsk", guided all of us in the execution of preparatory work for the manufacture of mines and vehicles in their combat setting, in collecting information about the movement of enemy ships and the distances to them in order to choose the right moment for the exit and the place for setting the bank. Both of these gave me the opportunity to justify Your Excellency's confidence in me and my ship, whose personnel were trained in combat deployments under your flag and under direct supervision on a number of mine-laying in January and February.
                        Presenting with these award sheets to the below-named officers, I take the liberty of asking for the award of the highest orders for military merits, which gave such important results for the further course of hostilities. I ask you to award the Molodetsky team with badges recognizing the Military Order and increase them to higher articles and ranks, as shown in the list attached hereto.
                        The destroyers accompanying me, by their consonant actions, attention during maneuvering, accurate and excellent execution of my signals, greatly contributed to the success of the work entrusted to me. I also consider it my duty to ask the petitions of Your Excellency for the rewarding of the commanders, officers and teams of these courts.
                        2nd-Class Captain Ivanov
                        http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3273&p=16
                      12. 0
                        April 25 2020 21: 07
                        I repeat my comment 10 years ago, I hope to hear ...
                        "now about VKV and Amur:
                        "Sea mine war at Port Arthur. V.Ya. Krestyaninov" http://wunder-waffe.ru/Magazine/BKM/rjvminen/07.htm
                        "Four hours after the departure of the commander-in-chief, Rear Admiral Vitgeft convenes a meeting of flagships and commanders of ships of the 1st and 2nd ranks. In the future, until his death, this admiral practices collegial leadership, discussing all the most important issues at meetings. The first issue, considered on April 22, concerned a defensive mine fence in front of the entrance to the inner roadstead to prevent the passage of fires from blocking the passage. The majority spoke in favor of the inexpediency of such a fence, and the question was removed. The second item of the meeting minutes was: "As soon as possible, place a mine fence from the Amur transport." Time, place of setting, number of mines were not indicated. Starting from April 26, "Cupid" was ready to go on production. "1) It is amazing that the desire of the BKV to use the collective mind is put on the line ... what's wrong with that?
                        2) it was established that the idea was definitely not Ivanova ....
                        Further...
                        "To cover the landing of the troops, the main forces of the Japanese fleet began a close blockade of Port Arthur. For this, several detachments, replacing each other, cruised all day long in view of the fortress. Coastal observation posts of the Golden Mountain, Liaoteshan and others monitored the movement of the blocking enemy forces. However, At first it was conducted without a system and a unified leadership. As the Russian official history of the war at sea noted: "Meanwhile, Admiral Vitgeft, who had just assumed command of the squadron under emergency circumstances and was busy with numerous conferences, did not have time to get used to and navigate the situation so give appropriate directives to observation posts. "
                        Well, it’s necessary to run into the VKV ... as without this ... an old song ...
                        “The squadron officers drew attention to the fact that the Japanese blocking forces follow the same route every day. The Amur commander, Captain 2nd Rank FN Ivanov, requested a special order for the observation posts, and it was given by Witgeft. "Transport" Amur "will soon go to sea and at a distance of 10 miles from the entrance lighthouse along the alignment of the entrance lights on the S to put 50 min information from the surrounding posts, p. when the officer on duty, in accordance with the location of the enemy and his movement, finds that the Amur transport can carry out the aforementioned order, report to the Brave boat for a report to Admiral Loshchinsky and the Amur transport. "
                        1) what we see is normal practice - the officer took the initiative - how best to complete the task, and the commander (VKV) supported his initiative ...
                        2) I highlight the range in red ...

                        "As a result, with the help of bearings taken simultaneously from different posts, the path of movement of the Japanese blocking forces was determined more precisely. However, Admiral Wittgeft considered it possible to lay mines no further than 5-6 miles from the coast of the Liaoteshan Peninsula. Not counting the right to violate international maritime law. But and this place was still outside the 3-mile strip of its territorial waters. Vitgeft gave the choice of the time for the exit to the chief of mobile and mine defense Rear Admiral Loshchinsky. "Everything is clear - the VKV, as a competent staff officer, shared responsibility .... but another admiral also no miss ...: D
                        "On that day, Lieutenant Gadd was on duty at the signal station of the Golden Mountain. He collected data from other posts and came to the conclusion that, given the conditions of visibility and the location of the Japanese ships, laying mines is possible. At 13.30 he reported this to the mine defense headquarters on the Brave" and on the “Amur.” Rear Admiral Loshchinsky, despite the powers granted to him in this matter, did not dare to take responsibility and give the order to go to sea. He reported to the squadron headquarters about a favorable moment. In response, by phone from the flagship the battleship "Sevastopol" was handed over: "The squadron chief ordered to be guided by the location of the enemy ships regarding the expulsion of the" Amur. "
                        1) There is an OPERATION of the entire squadron
                        2) the decision was personally made by the VKV and gave precise instructions!
                        Further:
                        "Instead of organizing the ships to the sea, Loshchinsky summons the Amur commander and goes with him to the next meeting. Upon arrival, he again reports to Vntgeft and asks for permission to leave the Amur. The latter replied:" Mine defense is yours business, and if you find it useful and convenient, then send it. "Only at 14.25 on the flagship battleship" Sevastopol "the signal goes up:" "Cupid" to go to destination. Walk carefully "."
                        1) VKV does not replace subordinates and does not remove responsibility from them - which speaks well of him!
                        2) When the subordinate admiral began to drag out - VKV took responsibility for the order! And still talk about his indecision ...: D
                        further - how not to kick VKV ...
                        "After receiving a signal, Amur went out to the outer roadstead, where six destroyers were already waiting for it. By order of Captain 2nd Rank Ivanov, they formed a warrant. Ahead of them was the first pair with a trawl: the torpedo boats" Fast "and" Angry ", behind them at a distance of 2 miles - "Brave" and "Slender." Their trawl was followed by "Cupid." The minelayer in the wake formation followed without trawls by cover destroyers "Attentive" and "Enduring". The first pair had a course of 5-6 knots, the second commander "Cupid" ordered to move 10 knots. As a result, the trawl for this pair immediately burst. When the "Cupid", having left with a 10-knot move, caught up with the first pair, Captain 2nd Rank Ivanov also ordered to increase the speed. The second trawl broke off. Left without trawls. , the minelayer increased the speed to 17 knots. The horizon was covered with darkness, and the enemy ships were not visible. Unlike the admirals, the commander of the Amur showed complete fearlessness. Neglecting the mine danger and meeting with the battleship, two armored cruisers and two cruisers Ami of the enemy, the captain of the 2nd rank ignored his timid superiors. At full speed, the Amur flew past the place of setting the obstacle, appointed by Vitgeft. "
                        1) those. increasing the speed of minesweepers is good ... just WHY? where so drove? would you be blown up?
                        2) and precautionary measures of VKV - this is so - timidity ....
                        Further :
                        "Ivanov decided to take advantage of the opportunity and place mines where, according to observations and calculations, the route of the blocking forces passed, that is, at a distance of 10,5-11 miles from the Golden Mountain. Arriving at a point 10 miles from the Golden Mountain. Ivanov ordered to raise the signal : "All of a sudden turn to the left by 8 points." Having passed 2 miles on this course, Ivanov turned 8 points to the right, the Amur reduced the speed to 6 knots and after the destroyers came forward, began setting mines. "
                        yes, but it was higher
                        "It said:" The Amur transport is to go to sea as soon as possible and at a distance of 10 miles from the entrance lighthouse along the alignment of the entrance lights on S to put 50 mines of obstacles. "
                        I'm confused ... isn't that about one thing? Or is there another myth about VKV?
                        well off ...
                        “Arriving on the outer roadstead, Ivanov released the escort ships and followed them into the harbor at 17.25. The admiral did not show "pleasure." In principle, the failure to comply with the order should have been brought to justice, but Wilhelm Karlovich did not dare to do this, and subsequent events showed how right Ivanov was. "
                        something about how much more maritime the conversation is no longer ....
                        "Due to the fact that the success of the" case of May 1 "was unexpected and impressive, Rear Admiral Vitgeft left without consequences the violation of the order by the transport commander on the place of laying mines. The death of" Hatsuse "showed the correctness of Captain 2nd Rank Ivanov, and not the squadron commander, and the winners are not judged. Vitgeft turned to the Commander-in-Chief with a request to reward the commander of the Cupid with a golden saber "For Courage", to award seven officers and to allocate 20 insignia of the military order for the lower ranks. "
                        repeat - WHY? because VKV awarded without stinting ....
                        but it’s like the roots of the myth of VKV:
                        "Alekseev also petitioned the sovereign emperor for the promotion of Rear Admiral Vitgeft to Vice Admiral. But the production was temporarily postponed" until the production of senior rear admirals, who held prominent positions, although they were not at the theater of warriors. "
                        They frankly threw VKV, and then hung different things .... in general, it is banal - intrigue, but how tenacious .... "
                      13. +1
                        April 25 2020 22: 27
                        All this is fine, but there is a very simple fact - the fact of violation of the order was reflected as in the report of F.N. Ivanova V.K. Vitgeft, tAk and in the report V.K. Vitgeft - to the governor, and therefore can not cause doubt.
                        So - alas.
                        If this was the idea of ​​the VKV, a secret order to Ivanov, then he would not have substituted Ivanov - both Ivanov and Vitgeft would have written in their reports that they had put mines 8 miles away. Ah, not at eight but at 11? Oh, they were mistaken, well, everything happens on the sea, you know the fog ... Or they would have written that because of the same fog the mines were mistakenly put at a greater distance than planned.
                        It was the translation of the arrows on Ivanov that proves that there was no secret, and he really violated the order
                      14. +1
                        April 25 2020 22: 23
                        Read the report
                        Quote: ser56
                        Having passed 6, and then 8 miles from Port Arthur Lighthouse, i.e., approximately the place indicated to me for staging, I decided take advantage of the circumstances that have favored me and put the mine can further, namely at a distance of 100-110 cable from the Golden Mountain, where, according to my observations, recently most of the time large enemy ships blocking us have been kept

                        A clear indication that Ivanov was self-willed.
                      15. +1
                        April 25 2020 22: 20
                        Quote: ser56
                        propose to consider Togo a fool?

                        the fact that he made a mistake in maneuvering does not make him a fool.
                        Quote: ser56
                        Seriously? they lied about the sinking of the EDB, about getting into the trunks, but they couldn’t tell about the number of hits ... you have funny logic ...

                        In which particular place of a secret story did they lie about the sinking of the EDB? Who told you that they lied about the trunks?
                        Quote: ser56
                        Well, yes, they don’t lie in secret documents ...

                        No, they don’t lie. They did top secret for internal use strictly. She was never supposed to be released to the public at all, this is strictly for the academy of naval officers. And there is a sea of ​​reports, that is, damage to Japanese ebras is confirmed by reports of those who repaired them up to the consumption of materials, etc. Such things, and even in such a volume, it just does not make sense to juggle.
                        Quote: ser56
                        I see no reason to discuss that you don’t understand

                        That is, as soon as it turned out that I was a little familiar with physics - right back :)
                        Quote: ser56
                        and the roots of everything that is said about VKV here:

                        The roots are just a little lower in your report.
                      16. 0
                        April 26 2020 17: 08
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        That is, as soon as it turned out that I was a little familiar with physics - right back :)

                        1) as Professor Rodimov said - you cannot know all physics, but I will ask in the exam ... bully
                        2) I do not see the point in the discussion about those branches of physics that you do not know, but I know professionally ... feel
                      17. 0
                        April 26 2020 19: 08
                        Quote: ser56
                        I don’t see the point in the discussion about those branches of physics that you don’t know, but I know professionally ..

                        You see, a professional differs from an amateur in that he is able to explain the complexities in his profession in simple words. So I would not mind at all to get an answer on wave-particle duality, so to speak, "for dummies" :)))
                      18. 0
                        April 26 2020 19: 37
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        on wave-particle duality,

                        can you imagine 6 dimensional space for example? hi the term you specified from the same opera ... request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        he is able to explain the complex in his profession in simple words.

                        alas, it is necessary to explain in terms that not everyone understands ... request
                        for example, the cathode’s emissivity depends on the density and temperature of the plasma that is created on the surface of the dielectric plate after a sliding discharge ... is everything clear? but it’s easier not to say ... request
                      19. 0
                        April 26 2020 21: 10
                        Quote: ser56
                        can you imagine 6 dimensional space for example?

                        Easily.
                        Quote: ser56
                        all clear? but it’s easier not to say ...

                        As I said, a professional is always able to explain the issues of his competence in simple words :)))
                      20. 0
                        April 26 2020 17: 12
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The roots are just a little lower in your report.

                        I’ve been used to it for a long time that people don’t want to read or understand the text read .... request
                        1) The idea of ​​an active MoH was put forward at a meeting led by the GVH
                        2) The reconnaissance of the movement paths was made by the Gadd on the orders of the VKV
                        3) access to the sea was at the direct direction of the VKV, through the subordinate Loschinsky, etc.
                      21. 0
                        April 26 2020 19: 12
                        Quote: ser56
                        I’ve been used to it for a long time that people don’t want to read or understand the text read ....

                        Sergey, the problem is that everything you write
                        Quote: ser56
                        The idea of ​​an active MoH was put forward at a meeting led by the GVH
                        2) The reconnaissance of the movement paths was made by the Gadd on the orders of the VKV
                        3) access to the sea was at the direct direction of the VKV, through the subordinate Loschinsky, etc.

                        It doesn’t cancel the fact that the VKV ordered the erection of the fence 8 miles away, where it simply did not make sense. He picked up the idea of ​​a minefield, but was afraid to put it where necessary, and therefore it makes no sense to say that it was thanks to Witgeft that Yasima and Hatsuse were destroyed.
                      22. 0
                        April 26 2020 19: 32
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        where it just didn't make sense.

                        1) any business consists of stages .... request
                        2) we read: "It said:" The Amur transport is to go to sea as soon as possible and 10 miles from the entrance lighthouse along the alignment of the entrance lights on S put 50 min of the barrage, "
                        3) Lieutenant Gadd found the Japanese track ....
                        4) "Arriving to a point 10 miles from Golden Mountain... Ivanov ordered to raise the signal: "All of a sudden turn to the left by 8 points." Having covered 2 miles on this course, Ivanov turned 8 points to the right, the Amur reduced its speed to 6 knots and after the destroyers came forward, began laying mines. "
                        5) I am not a sailor, I can’t do the laying ... request but if you subtract from 10 miles "Putting all 50 minutes, with which everyone got up well, along a 12 '/ cable line," 8,8 miles will remain ... let's take into account the accuracy of observation and request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        that it was thanks to Witgeft that Yasima and Hatsuse were destroyed.
                        see above - his contribution is noticeable, if not determining ... request
                      23. 0
                        April 26 2020 21: 21
                        Quote: ser56
                        It said: "The Amur transport is to go out to sea as soon as possible and at a distance of 10 miles from the entrance lighthouse along the alignment of the entrance lights on S to put 50 mines of obstacles

                        It was. However, then Admiral Witgeft gave a general directive indicating the place of laying mines 8-9 miles from the entrance (lighthouse) setting time - at the discretion of Loschinsky. Moreover, all this is said in the same source that the Peasants used. The source, by the way, finds a logical explanation for Witgeft’s desire
                      24. 0
                        April 27 2020 19: 32
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        However, then Admiral Witgeft gave a general directive indicating the location of mines 8-9 miles from the entrance (lighthouse

                        and if you add the line length of mines? request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        production time - at the discretion of Loschinsky.

                        VKV is a normal admiral - he does not replace subordinates and this is right! request
                        And he does not imagine himself as the smartest, as some admirals, is able to listen, but also to order to execute ...
                        but according to Essen - bad ... feel Oh, these intrigues and pride ... request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        the clerk, by the way, finds a logical explanation for Witgeft’s desire

                        1) Speculation and intrigue ... see the beginning of this post ...
                        2) pay attention to the first statement -10 miles!
                        3) The source acknowledges that the Ministry of Health in any case, the violation is in neutral waters ... request
                        4) Sorry for the replay -
                        Quote: ser56
                        Transport "Amur" will soon go to sea and at a distance of 10 miles from the entrance lighthouse
                        + meeting decision -
                        Quote: ser56
                        therefore, it is proposed that duty officers of the signal station (Golden Mountain) follow carefully following the movement of the enemy, collecting information from the surrounding villagesc, p. when the officer on duty, in accordance with the location of the enemy and his movement, finds that the Amur transport can carry out the aforementioned order, report to the Brave boat for a report to Admiral Loshchinsky and the Amur transport.

                        don't you find that the VKV has no word about the bombing of the PA?
                        If you didn’t read the 2010 Tsushima branch, then I’ll repeat my thought - this is intrigue! Even with the living and at the post of acting The commander of the VKV did not receive anything for super success! And after death they poured mud at all - see Essen! It seems that the VKV was in the team of the Viceroy, he got into circulation (most likely it is ZPR as the GMH slowed down the production of VVV to the vice admirals on the proposal of the Viceroy) and the new ones (Essen, Grigorovich and others) used all the methods in the struggle for power - alas, this is corny ... request
                  2. -3
                    April 24 2020 22: 13
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Both in Tsushima and in ZhM Togo was greatly substituted. But Witgeft’s squadron wasn’t able to provide the required number of hits, and Rozhestvensky could not, only because of the weakness of the Russian shells it did not work.

                    Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. Rozhdestvensky did not engage in rifle preparation of the squadron in general from the word in any way. The whole difference in the number of hits is due solely to the fact that under Tsushima Togo sharply reduced the battle distance.

                    Tales about the weakness of Russian shells from the same opera as about worthless, rusty ships .. As you know, everything hinders a bad dancer ..
                    1. +3
                      April 25 2020 02: 04
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      Rozhdestvensky did not engage in rifle preparation of the squadron in general from the word in any way.

                      You mixed up Rozhdestvensky with Wigteft, that’s really for combat training scored.
                      We have data on the battleship "Eagle", for practical firing it was taken over the staff 40 12 ", 180 6 ", 300 75 mm, 1 500 mm and 47 2 850 mm practical shots.
                      While staying in Nossi-Be, during three practice firing, the battleship fired all forty 12 "training shells and a certain number of smaller caliber shells. How many and which ones we do not know, however, according to the senior officer of the battleship" Eagle "Captain 2nd Rank K. L. Shvede "did not manage to shoot the entire stock of practical (cast-iron) shells on our battleship, some of them, about 1/3, remained."
                      Rozhestvensky did not forget about stem firing.
                      On the battleship "Eagle" on September 23, 1904, 1 386 three-line rifle cartridges of Berdan were used up, then another 1 cartridges were used up in Kamrang.
                      In addition, tentatively in Nossi-Bae, three more firing of Berdan cartridges was carried out, and the total number of cartridges used during stem firing is approaching 8 346 pcs.
                      For comparison, on the battleship "Mikasa", in addition to calibrated training firing, they also practiced barrel firing, and in the course of preparation for the meeting of the Russian fleet there was spent 9 066 rifle cartridges.

                      And now let us recall the results of the training caliber firing of the Togo battleships, which took place on April 25, 1905. The fire was carried on an island measuring 24 to 30 meters in length and 10,5 to 12 meters in width. The distance during firing was reduced from 3 to 000 yards. Shooting accuracy was for 2 '' guns 62,5 % (8/5).

                      It would be appropriate to compare the accuracy of shooting "Mikasa" with the accuracy achieved by the bow turret of "Prince Suvorov". According to the letter of the junior mine officer of the ship, Lieutenant P.A.Vyrubov 1st, during the third practice shooting in Madagascar, which took place on January 19, 1905, out of six training shells fired by the bow turret of the main caliber, five (83 %).
                      1. 0
                        April 25 2020 15: 29
                        Quote: Comrade
                        with Wigteft, he really scored for combat training.

                        there were reasons for this - the squadron was engaged in the affairs of the fortress ... there is his fault in this, but aren't the ship commanders equally guilty, at least?
                      2. 0
                        April 26 2020 20: 49
                        Quote: Comrade
                        We have data on the battleship "Eagle", for practical firing it oversized 40 12 ", 180 6" ...

                        Did you make such a discovery !? It is easy to recall that on all ships of the squadron, 20% of practical shells were loaded in excess of full-time ammunition. Plus, a separate vehicle with practical shells was reported to go with the squadron, the one that received damage after the collision and was forgotten by Rozhestvensky in Libava. The same shells from which they eventually sent to Vladivostok.

                        As a result, all preparation was reduced to the very minimum. You can recall the same Levitsky that most of the practical shells were eventually brought to Tsushima unused .. Three firing from Madagascar .. Barrel, blanks, practical. The results are lower than the plinth, but it didn’t excite anyone, Rozhdestvensky at that moment bombed Peter with telegrams asking for his resignation. This courtier upstart didn’t even think that he really would have to fight, the fall of Port Arthur was a shock to him.

                        It should be noted that Nebogatov in the course of his hasty, catching up campaign, combat training devoted ten times more time. For example, he was the first in the Russian fleet to organize firing at maximum distances of 35 or more cable. And the first one discovered big problems with rangefinders.

                        I already wrote that any of the younger flagships of the RI squadron would have conducted the Tsushima battle an order of magnitude better. A Christmas ordinary court upstart who destroyed the squadron entrusted to him and, as a result, the country purely for career reasons.
                      3. The comment was deleted.
                    2. +3
                      April 25 2020 08: 47
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. Rozhdestvensky did not engage in rifle preparation of the squadron in general from the word in any way.

                      Very fat trolling
                      1. -2
                        April 26 2020 20: 51
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Very fat trolling

                        Are you the type of reasoned answer? Very in your style .. laughing
                      2. +1
                        April 26 2020 21: 07
                        So long ago answered, the point of repeating and feeding the troll?
                  3. 0
                    April 27 2020 15: 37
                    The number of hits in LM and Tsushima is easily explained by the following factors:
                    1. The distance of the battle. Under Tsushima is clearly less.
                    2. The number of trunks. The 2nd squadron was more numerous than the 1st.
                    3. The duration of the battle.
                    For shells, I advise you to read the series of articles
                    https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/55381.html
                    https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/58642.html
                    https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/58524.html
                    https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/55723.html
                    https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/56157.html
                    https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/56681.html
                    https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/56353.html
                    https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/55860.html
                    https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/69262.html
                    1. 0
                      April 27 2020 16: 07
                      Quote: rytik32
                      The number of hits in LM and Tsushima is easily explained by the following factors:
                      1. The distance of the battle. Under Tsushima is clearly less.

                      Let’s nevertheless clarify that Rozhestvensky’s head EDBs (maybe the first 6, maybe less, but certainly not with all the guns, since Mikasa was on a fairly sharp nasal angle) threw at least 15 hits in the first 25 minutes of the battle (minimum - because only hits are taken into account, the time of which was recorded by the Japanese, that is, there could have been more) from a distance of roughly 45 cables. At the same time, the excitement at sea was much stronger than in the sea.
                      I also remind you that the Russians 6 EDB in the FM during the first hour of intense fire of the second phase, when the distance fell from 40 to, roughly 23 cables reached the EMNIP as many as 9 hits or less.
                      1. 0
                        April 28 2020 02: 30
                        In addition to the number of hits, you should look at the quality. According to current data (links I posted above), only 6 to 9 large shells hit Mikasu at Tsushima. And in the Yellow Sea?

                        In my opinion, you exaggerated the distance in the plot of Tsushima. For 45 cables, Mikasa probably also came up with Nikolai 1. But between the flagships there were 32-27 cables, i.e. about the same as in LM.

                        It’s just not very correct to compare the accuracy of shooting at the beginning and at the end of the battle. People get tired, devices go astray ... Count already then hits for comparison of getting to Mikasu in the last 15 minutes of the battle)))
                      2. +2
                        April 29 2020 16: 40
                        Quote: rytik32
                        In addition to the number of hits, you should look at the quality. According to current data (links I posted above), only 6 to 9 large shells hit Mikasu at Tsushima. And in the Yellow Sea?

                        The substantiation of 6-9 large-caliber shells in Mikasu raises a big question - both the SSI and Campbell talk about 10 hits, but somehow I'm still more inclined to trust them. And in the Yellow Sea - 9 305 mm and 3 * 254 mm. But the question is not this, but the fact that to determine the quality of shooting you need to take the percentage of hits, but it is impossible to figure it out by Rozhestvensky’s EDB.
                        Again - 5 of them slammed into Mikasa during just 15 minutes of the battle, when the number of shots of Russian heavy guns a priori could not be large
                        Quote: rytik32
                        In my opinion, you exaggerated the distance in the plot of Tsushima. For 45 cables, Mikasa probably also came up with Nikolai 1. But between the flagships there were 32-27 cables, i.e. about the same as in LM.

                        Yes, it is likely. But there are a lot of ambiguities, since the Japanese say that we started shooting from about 8000 meters or less, that is, 44 cables, Campbell - from 9 thousand yards, and we - that from 32 cables. But the second phase of the battle in the LM took place at shorter distances, and there was no wind of 4-5 points.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        It’s just not very correct to compare the accuracy of shooting at the beginning and at the end of the battle. People get tired, devices go astray ... Count already then hits for comparison of getting to Mikasu in the last 15 minutes of the battle)))

                        Yes, how to say? It is a pleasure to discuss with you, the arguments you give are completely reasonable and correct. But keep in mind that during the second phase the fatigue did not prevent the Japanese from more than doubling the effectiveness of firing from heavy guns - even though 5 of them failed. (19 hits in Russian ships in the first phase and 1 in the second). In addition, the accuracy very much depends on whether the ship is under fire or not - when Togo caught up with Vitgeft, the leading Russian armadillos had the opportunity to shoot, while remaining unfired themselves.
                      3. 0
                        April 30 2020 02: 32
                        Andrei, good afternoon!
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        and SSI and Campbell talk about 10 hits, but somehow I'm still more inclined to trust them

                        A source is now available - a description of the damage scheme [caused] by the Mikasa combat ship with shells ”in the report of the ship’s commander, 1st rank captain Izichi Hikojiro.

                        I do not mind the fact that 2TOE showed excellent shooting accuracy in the beginning of the battle (5% according to Gribovsky). But the result of the outbreak of the battle is also known: Mikasa took a position that was not very favorable in terms of range and heading angle for firing our ships. On the other hand, Suvorov and Oslyabya found themselves exactly "opposite" the center of the Japanese detachments under concentrated fire and were soon suppressed.
                        This is a 100% error in maneuvering and another error in the choice of squadron speed.
                        What about shells? It is enough to compare the losses of the crew of Mikas-Tsesarevich in ZhM and Mikasa-Orel in Tsushima. And it turns out that our shells were not so bad. They killed and wounded him, obviously not worse than the Japanese.
                      4. +1
                        April 30 2020 21: 34
                        Quote: rytik32
                        A source is now available - a description of the damage scheme [caused] by the Mikasa combat ship with shells ”in the report of the ship’s commander, 1st rank captain Izichi Hikojiro.

                        So SSI seems to be written on the basis of his reports :)))
                        Quote: rytik32
                        But the result of the outbreak of the battle is also known: Mikasa took a position that was not very favorable in terms of range and heading angle for firing our ships. On the other hand, Suvorov and Oslyabya found themselves exactly "opposite" the center of the Japanese detachments under concentrated fire and were soon suppressed. This is a 100% maneuvering error and also an error in the selection of the squadron speed.

                        I agree, but given the difference in speed and with the right actions of Togo, this is an inevitable result. He generally could cross without any loops. I will say more precisely: with the right maneuvering of Togo, the T crossing of the Russian squadron was guaranteed. But it did not happen, and it is possible that this is the merit of Rozhestvensky, who started maneuvers with 2 columns. The key factor was speed, and there was nothing to choose from here - even the fastest Russian EDBs had a squadron speed less than the Japanese.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        What about shells? It is enough to compare the losses of the crew of Mikas-Tsesarevich in ZhM and Mikasa-Orel in Tsushima. And it turns out that our shells were not so bad.

                        I do not think that such a comparison reflects the quality of the shells. The objective of the shells is to reduce the combat potential of an enemy ship with its subsequent destruction. The Japanese coped with this, ours didn’t. In the same Tsushima, both Suvorov and Orel lost centralized control very quickly after the fire was concentrated on them, the control of the fire had to be transferred to the plutongs, which reduced its effectiveness by several times. The Japanese also successfully disabled our artillery without breaking through armor, the same Eagle was an example to this.
                        What did our shells do? The same Mikasa remained fully combat-ready until the end of the battle in Tsushima, and in ZhM his main damage (aft tower) was received as a result of the explosion of his own shell in the gun.
                      5. 0
                        2 May 2020 12: 05
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        He generally could cross without any loops. I will say more precisely: with the right maneuvering of Togo, the T crossing of the Russian squadron was guaranteed.

                        I read your article on this topic and do not agree with you. I share the position of the American admirals who at the same time were looking for a way to level the superiority in speed of the probable enemy. So the Americans came to the conclusion that attempts to cover the head should be answered with a lapel from the enemy, i.e. go to a circle with a smaller radius than the enemy.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I will say more precisely: with the right maneuvering of Togo, the T crossing of the Russian squadron was guaranteed. But it did not happen, and it is possible that this is the merit of Rozhestvensky, who started maneuvers with 2 columns.

                        You can apply your argument to the first phase of the battle. But further, it was not Rozhdestvensky who already commanded the squadron, and those who led the squadron maneuvered quite successfully, even better than in the beginning of the battle. So, in fact, the Japanese could not deliver T crossing either in ZhM or in Tsushima, having an advantage in speed.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The objective of the shells is to reduce the combat potential of an enemy ship with its subsequent destruction. The Japanese coped with this, ours didn’t.

                        And even the Japanese shells successfully coped with the destruction of the combat potential of their ships, especially in the LM))) And in Tsushima, the Japanese had to significantly reduce the rate of fire of 12-inch guns. So our shells on the background of the Japanese - quite nothing! I recall that no one had good shells then! And it’s better to let the shells explode poorly behind thin obstacles and have little explosive than explode in their own barrels and can’t effectively penetrate armor because of an instant fuse.
          2. +2
            April 23 2020 03: 52
            The question is: will the Japanese come up to fight closer to Vladik? Having the opportunity to destroy the cruisers there, they did not even demonstrate such a desire. The reason is the same. Now we understand her perfectly. Will have to act at the limit of range. Does it need that? Let them sit in Vladik and fail on their own for technical reasons.
            That is, all that is needed is to organize intelligence. He knew how. And his commanders matched.
            The quality of command largely decided the outcome of the war at sea.
            1. 0
              April 23 2020 15: 01
              Quote: mmaxx
              Will have to act at the limit of range.

              What prevents to organize a base in Henzan? The experience of the base on poisoning under the PA is already there ...
              Quote: mmaxx
              The quality of command largely decided the outcome of the war at sea.

              exactly! and we sin on shells and training hi
  21. +1
    April 22 2020 16: 17
    Not bad - finally the cycle is completed ...
    that before "The commander of a battleship cannot afford such a luxury as neurosis, he must be extremely psychologically stable in any situation. VN Ferzen, alas, turned out to be not like that."
    in principle, true, but it seemed that there was a systemic problem in the training of officers in the RIF - the commander Boyarina ordered in an even simpler situation to leave the ship ... request
    Maybe they were not afraid of the tribunal, in the sense that we understand it in the Soviet sense?
    The British had decisive commanders, but they also judged their commanders and admirals severely .... feel
    1. +5
      April 22 2020 17: 40
      Quote: ser56
      Not bad - finally the cycle is completed ...

      No, more about Pearls will be :))))
      1. +2
        April 22 2020 18: 25
        Will you write about "Pearl" up to "The Penang Bay Massacre"?
      2. 0
        April 22 2020 19: 58
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        No, more about Pearls will be :))))

        We are waiting! drinks
  22. 0
    April 22 2020 16: 29
    Thanks for a good article. A little about the "conclusions". As for the command of ships and formations, I will not say, the question is complicated, but about: "Was it fair to award Fersen with a golden weapon with the inscription" for bravery "? you can also give two gold awards, with inscriptions against the background of the others, it is very good. and awards in such difficult moments for the country carry a much greater burden than just a statement of the fact: it was a job. It's a pity, but the honor of the flag (to maintain which the captain did not a little at a difficult moment) is much more expensive, and the whole story (including the shipwreck) is no worse than that of Varyag or Guardian
    1. 0
      April 22 2020 16: 46
      Quote: Niko
      that the admiral who surrendered the rest of the squadron served only 2 (two) years in the fortress

      and in vain ... request there would be a massacre and 2000 corpses ... request the wealthy did not at least abandon their flagship and share his fate ... request
      1. +1
        April 22 2020 17: 06
        I also welcome pacifism, therefore, not an admiral. And respect is not deserving of those who save their lives behind the public (supposedly) interests, we don’t have to live our whole life at the expense of the state, but at the only moment when we need to prove that it was not in vain: to betray our homeland Conclusion: my respect for the enemy dying under his flag, shame on my compatriot dishonoring the flag
        1. 0
          April 22 2020 17: 15
          Quote: Niko
          saving his life behind social (supposedly) interests

          1) does not roll against Nebogatov - he, like the others, was taken to the slaughter without communicating plans ... request
          2) the military value of his detachment in the morning was insignificant - his courage in saving people ... would die a durik hi
          Quote: Niko
          dying under his flag

          it’s like when you kill Rurik yourself ... and in your coordinates and the return of the Varangian, it’s Rudnev’s cowardice ... feel
          1. +1
            April 22 2020 17: 25
            There is no connection between you kill yourself or not. There are concepts: Duty, Honor. And my respect for people who are ready to "simply" die for their homeland without hiding behind ideas of peacefulness. There are plenty of such examples
            1. +1
              April 22 2020 19: 53
              Quote: Niko
              not hiding behind the ideas of peace

              jammed you? hi what a peacefulness is expediency! prisoners have always been and will be in war ... request
          2. 0
            April 22 2020 17: 39
            Regarding legal issues: the lawsuit removed the questions, unfortunately they were afraid to carry out the sentence (while the commanders of the ships, despite the heaps of problems, preferred to do their duty and the Empire grew, as soon as it appeared in their heads: "Oh, I suddenly became peace-loving" the end of the empire "
            1. 0
              April 22 2020 19: 57
              Quote: Niko
              the questions were removed by the trial,

              Seriously? laughing it was a note of traces ... therefore, they pardoned quickly ... feel
              Quote: Niko
              as soon as it appeared in their heads: "ah, I suddenly became peaceful" the empire came to an end "

              "On May 11, Raphael met with a Turkish squadron that left the Bosphorus, which consisted of fifteen ships: six battleships, two frigates, five corvettes and two brigs. Raphael tried to hide from a superior enemy, but due to the small wind, he failed and he was surrounded. At the council, the officers decided to fight "to the last drop of blood", as required by the Naval Regulations of 1720, but when conversations with the sailors began, the officer in charge of negotiations reported that the crew did not want to die and asked to surrender the ship [3 As a result, Captain 2nd Rank Semyon Mikhailovich Stroinikov ordered to lower the flag and hand over the ship to the Turks. "
              enlighten ... hi
              1. 0
                April 23 2020 18: 32
                Then Emperor Nicholas 1 forbade him to marry so that there was no procreation. Only to the chagrin of Emperor Nicholas did Stroinikov already have a wife
          3. 0
            April 22 2020 20: 10
            "They led him to the slaughter" is a typical example of a commissar
            "Trench propaganda" that collapsed the empire, which just had to hold out for half a year at the front and fleets, because. the enemy was practically crushed (albeit with the help of allies)
            1. +1
              April 22 2020 20: 44
              Quote: Niko
              He was led to the slaughter "- a typical example of a commissar

              Quote: ser56
              without informing plans ..

              Do you think it is normal that Nebogatov did not know the plans of ZPR for the battle? bully
              Quote: Niko
              collapsed empire

              Bullshit - the empire overthrew the empire. decided to play in the state. coups, but demolished it at the turns of history ... hi Did it become your commissar Shulgin? bully
              1. +1
                April 23 2020 07: 49
                No, I do not consider the leadership of Rozhdestvensky to be "normal", all the more ideal, and there is guilt for the fact that Tsushima has become a tragedy of Russia, but the fault is that Tsushima has become the Shame of Russia - on Nebogatovo. And the person "who shared the fate of the ship" if it means surrendering after the first shot can not be an example for a person who left the ship after the battle (but spent the entire main part of the battle under concentrated fire) and the actions of Miklouho-Maclay and Fersen will always be an example (let these people and not without flaws)
                1. 0
                  April 23 2020 19: 41
                  Quote: Niko
                  that Tsushima became the Shame of Russia on Nebogatov.

                  stupidity ... request Shame was in the incompetent rout of 2TE, and not the surrender ...
                  Quote: Niko
                  for the person who left the ship after the battle (but spent the entire main part of the battle under concentrated fire)

                  you have 2nd standards ... ZPR and its staff escaped from the flagship, and then passed a working EM ... hi
                  1. +1
                    April 24 2020 09: 34
                    I understand double standards, a good expression. You write about Suvorov - "Flagman", which is miraculously floating on the water, and about Nebogatov's combat-ready squadron, "The combat value of the detachment was negligible" and this is not double standards for you. But ok, I understand that people with your convenient worldview (when betrayal and violation of the oath justifies itself to please) becomes more and more and it is useless to argue. in this worldview there is no place for either Varyag, or the Brest Fortress, or even Fersen, against their background cowardice and meanness are obvious ...
                    1. -2
                      April 24 2020 13: 37
                      Quote: Niko
                      You write about the miracle of Suvorov floating on the water

                      Is this the reason to run from the flagship? Could a wounded ZPR take command from another ship?
                      This was a shame ....
                      Quote: Niko
                      under combat combat squadron of Nebogatov

                      Who is combat ready? Lost Artillery Eagle? Or BBO with shot guns?
                      Enter a little topic, but do not write nonsense ... request I note, the flagship of Nebogatov was the only one to knock out the enemy ship (Asamu) from the line request
                      Quote: Niko
                      and this is not double standards for you

                      factology
                      Quote: Niko
                      with your convenient worldview (when the betrayal and violation of the oath is justified for the sake of pleasing) it becomes more and more useless to argue.

                      1) sailors are not suicide bombers - in a hopeless situation, after the exhaustion of defense means, captivity is not a shame ... request Let me remind you, it was a colonial war hi
                      2) your hysteria and the transition to personality says a lot about you, young lady! bully
                      Quote: Niko
                      there is no place for Varyag or Brest Fortress

                      Paying tribute to the courage of fighters and sailors, I have to tell you the obvious - both of these episodes are largely mythologized ... request It would be better for the Varangian to leave without a fight at night, and the Brest Fortress was originally stupid of the Soviet command - the troops suffered heavy and meaningless losses ... request
                      Quote: Niko
                      against their background, cowardice and baseness are evident ..

                      Do you have a huge combat experience? how many orders? hi or are you a couch warrior? bully
                      1. 0
                        April 24 2020 17: 03
                        I’m a couch. And I don’t see anything wrong with that. And if the statement of obvious facts about your worldview hurts you, do not speak out loud, this is a public resource. And everyone knows that a coward and a traitor usually do not justify, but overshadows the heroes, usually a person with similar qualities
                      2. 0
                        April 24 2020 19: 12
                        Quote: Niko
                        I am sofa. And I see nothing wrong with that.

                        but I see - there are a lot of courageous when it does not concern them ... request
                        Quote: Niko
                        .a if the statement of obvious facts regarding your worldview offends you,

                        you are not smart enough and educated to understand understand my worldview! hi
                        Quote: Niko
                        and obscures their heroes, usually a person with similar qualities

                        Stupid and not distant people with poor education usually go on insults on the Web wink
                      3. 0
                        April 25 2020 09: 53
                        From your "giving their due, BUT" even those who do not have one turn over in their grave, from the defenders of Brest, the boys who went to Moscow to die at 41m, to the Japanese boys who went to flight schools at 44m, 45m.
                      4. 0
                        April 25 2020 15: 32
                        Quote: Niko
                        even those who don’t have it are turned over in a coffin

                        it’s just an uncomfortable truth when the miscalculations of the authorities were closed by the bodies of soldiers request
                        Quote: Niko
                        Japanese boys who left for flying schools at 44m, 45m.

                        these Japanese boys ate the prisoners' liver - by the way our allies ... request
                      5. 0
                        April 25 2020 10: 22
                        Apparently you are the Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union and you have so many orders that everything does not fit on your chest, this is a weighty argument .... I present our dialogue with you somewhere in the basements of Brest on June 24,26 ..... " thrown here to the slaughter! "we have exhausted all means ... prisoners, this is normal" "management mistakes" "not rational .... etc
                      6. +1
                        April 25 2020 12: 42
                        Quote: Niko
                        You seem to be the Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union and the orders you have so much that everyone does not fit on his chest

                        Just pay attention to the knowledge level of your opponent’s material
                        Quote: ser56
                        Wounded ZPR could take command from another ship

                        Rozhdestvensky did not dare to remove the skull fragments from the wound in Japan for 2 months already, roughly an hour after the battle, he lost consciousness, and, in essence, did not return to him. That is, there were short glimpses, but he could not command anything.
                        Quote: ser56
                        It would be better for the Varangian to leave at night without a fight

                        The fact that at night the Varangian stood at the sight of the destroyers, Sergei does not know. Although he took an active part in the discussion of the cycle, where I described all this.
                      7. 0
                        April 25 2020 15: 47
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        to the level of knowledge of the material

                        well above average bully
                        Quote: ser56
                        Could a wounded ZPR take command from another ship?

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Wounded ZPR could take command from another ship

                        you have a very bad citation culture! without taking a question mark into the quote, you have distorted the meaning of my phrase - to put it mildly, this is a bad deed! hi The use of such moves characterizes you very badly from a moral and ethical point of view negative What got so criticized that went for a forgery? bully
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        but he could no longer command.

                        That is why the flight from the flagship is only a cover for the staff or his personal cowardice - although in any case he gave his consent, so this is not important ... request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        oh, that at night the Varangian stood at the sight of the destroyers, Sergey did not know

                        and the Varangian had guns and mine nets - when he tried to fire mines, he could protect himself! MN stood at a distance of a direct shot of 6dm guns (do you need to chew about this?) - pointing the MA at the KR is a direct act of war! Yes, there were other measures of secretive preparation for giving the course - for example, to blind the MN with searchlights, a person who wants is looking for a way ... hi
                        You, Andrey, have the "logic" of a hostage, not a fighter ... request
                      8. 0
                        April 25 2020 19: 00
                        Quote: ser56
                        and the Varangian had guns and mine nets - when he tried to fire mines, he could protect himself!

                        Could not. He could open fire in response to the torpedoes, and after that the Russians would start a war, since to prove that this answer is simply impossible. The nets need to be set for a long time and they do not protect the ship from the bow sectors, and the destroyers could give way at any time.
                        Quote: ser56
                        MN stood at a distance of a direct shot of 6dm guns (do you need to chew about this?) - pointing the MA at the KR is a direct act of war!

                        Only in your imagination.
                        Quote: ser56
                        Yes, there were other measures of secretive preparation for giving the course - for example, to blind the MN with searchlights, whoever wants to find a way.

                        A way to do what? :))) On a stupid suicide, also having landed in the instigators of war?
                        You come up with completely worthless options - destroyers could torpedo a cruiser even with networks, even without, even at a low speed, even at anchor. You can also recall that in addition to the destroyers, Takachiho, Akashi and Asama remained in the raid.
                        But most importantly, Rudnev had an order NOT to Hinder the Japanese landing. It was impossible to leave in silence, to break through with a fight - to directly violate the order.
                        But you do not care.
                        Quote: ser56
                        well above average

                        Noticeably above average, you only persist in your own mistakes. Alas, you have no knowledge at all.
                        Quote: ser56
                        you have a very bad citation culture! without taking a question mark into the quote, you have distorted the meaning of my phrase - to put it mildly, this is a bad deed!

                        Sorry, that’s why I didn’t understand.
                        Quote: ser56
                        What got so criticized that went for a forgery?

                        There is no criticism. There is a thoughtless repetition of once and for all "truths."
                      9. 0
                        April 25 2020 21: 35
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        He could open fire in response to the torpedoes, and after that the Russians would start a war, since to prove that this answer is simply impossible.

                        nonsense - the production of MN in the Russian KR already gives rise to ... hi
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        they protect the ship from the bow sectors

                        funny logic for you - networks protect most of the ship and the most important! In addition, it is possible to turn the ship when maneuvering the MN, and maneuvering is already an attack!
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        A way to do what? :)

                        hide your preparations ...

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        destroyers could torpedo the cruiser even with networks, even without, even at low speed, even at anchor.

                        aha, but the Kyrgyz Republic has no guns - a sheep ... bully you really have the logic of a hostage ... request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Rudnev had an order NOT to obstruct the Japanese landing. It was impossible to leave in silence, to break through with a fight - to directly violate the order.

                        1) Rudnev, as the commander was responsible for the safety of his KR!
                        2) Leaving at night is not a breakthrough with a fight - until the MN launched an attack ... then self-defense ...
                        by the way - Rudnev could not start a war - the Japanese attacked the PA that very night bully
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Alas, you have no knowledge at all.

                        this is your opinion and incorrect ... hi
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Sorry, that’s why I didn’t understand.

                        have passed! drinks

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        There is a thoughtless repetition of once and for all "truths."

                        it’s funny ... you have a picture of a REV that reflects a ossified myth ... request
                        The late Polutov struggled with myths, but alas ... recourse
                      10. 0
                        April 25 2020 22: 12
                        Quote: ser56
                        nonsense - staging MN in the Russian KR already gives rise to ..

                        Really nonsense. Learn international law. Since when is staging a warship in the immediate vicinity of another an act of declaring war?
                        Quote: ser56
                        funny logic for you - networks protect most of the ship and the most important! In addition, it is possible to turn the ship when maneuvering the MN

                        Another nonsense. If the Varangian, putting the nets, makes a small move, the destroyer gives it too, calmly bypasses the cruiser and torpedoes it. All.
                        Quote: ser56
                        aha, and the Kyrgyz Republic has no guns - a sheep ..

                        There is. And here is the result of their application. The cruiser makes a move, it is torpedoed, it opens fire and damages the destroyer. No one heard the torpedo shots, they are quiet, but everyone knows the explosion of a mine.
                        Total the next morning - the Varangian was sunk, all witnesses confirm that at first there were Varyag’s shots, and then - an explosion of torpedoes. Outraged by the unprovoked attack, Japan declares war :))))
                        Quote: ser56
                        you really have the logic of a hostage ...

                        I have logic. You do not have it.
                        On Varyag no one knew that there would be an ultimatum. They only knew that the Japanese were landing and had orders not to interfere. Any actions of the cruiser standing at the sight of the destroyers can provoke the Japanese, but this cannot be done - Russia is corny not ready for war.
                        Quote: ser56
                        by the way - Rudnev could not start a war - the Japanese attacked the PA that very night

                        But how did Rudnev know this? :)) He knew exactly what he knew.
                      11. 0
                        April 25 2020 15: 35
                        Quote: Niko
                        You apparently

                        plagiarism ... find your arguments bully
                        Quote: Niko
                        "we were thrown here to the slaughter!" we have exhausted all means ... prisoners, this is normal "" management mistakes "" not rational .... etc

                        we are lucky that this is not so ... request and the guys in the Brest Fortress were framed by the recent leadership of the Red Army request But, I note, this was written at best in closed editions ...
                      12. 0
                        April 25 2020 15: 42
                        and the guys from the Brest Fortress were framed

                        A funny interpretation of the reluctance of the USSR to attack the Reich.
                      13. 0
                        April 25 2020 15: 55
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        A funny interpretation of the reluctance of the USSR to attack the Reich.

                        war is not a matter of desire ... request
                      14. 0
                        April 25 2020 15: 59
                        war is not a matter of desire

                        In order not to "substitute the guys in the Brest Fortress", it is necessary to announce mobilization a month before June 22.
                      15. 0
                        April 25 2020 16: 40
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        mobilization a month before June 22.

                        not at all - it was necessary to withdraw the troops from the fortress into the field, left a battalion for defense ... request
                      16. 0
                        April 25 2020 17: 20
                        by no means

                        Brought out-framed in 62 missiles, there should be 10-12 only rifle instead of 4 rifle divisions by June 22, 1941.
                      17. 0
                        April 25 2020 17: 25
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        instead of 4 rifle divisions by June 22, 1941.

                        is it better that they perished in the trap of the fortress?
                      18. 0
                        April 25 2020 18: 13
                        better that they

                        Not better, either.
                        The fortress closes the railway and bridges, preventing the supply of 2 TGr along the most convenient route.
                      19. 0
                        April 25 2020 20: 34
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Not better, either.

                        Guderian went around the fortress and all ... hi
                      20. +1
                        April 25 2020 10: 03
                        Quote: ser56
                        It would be better for the Varangian to leave at night without a fight,

                        What is it like? If you are talking about the night before the battle, then Japanese destroyers stood next to him all night.
                      21. 0
                        April 25 2020 15: 49
                        see above my answer to Andrey from the anomalous region ... hi
                      22. 0
                        April 25 2020 16: 19
                        Saw. As for mine networks - so-so proposal. Why, explain?
                      23. 0
                        April 25 2020 16: 38
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        As for mine networks - so-so proposal. Why, explain?

                        1) no, it’s not necessary, but networks are one of the measures - in the complex, they could give an effect
                        2) so, as an alternative - Rudnev makes a decision to break through at night, there is a secretive preparation for the campaign - networks are put in for disguise! At night, when ready, they unfasten the anchor network for stealth and give way - while blinding the enemy with spotlights! When you try to shoot / shot from the MA, open fire on the enemy MN. The move will allow you to make a dodge maneuver, the network will help fend off the torpedo, if it is released! No. cab at 30uz is 30 seconds of travel - comparable to the Varyag circulation time - there are chances ... request And another stroke - this is a neutral port, and not the fairway to it - the neutrals may be defeated, but the Japanese started, who did the RPE almost according to the rules ... so it’s not a fact that they shot from the MA first feel
                      24. +1
                        April 25 2020 16: 45
                        As I understand it, the fact that the network could not be used on the go is not an argument for you?
                      25. 0
                        April 25 2020 17: 11
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        the fact that the network could not be used on the go is not an argument for you?

                        on the small - you can! There was a risk, but in such a situation there is nothing to do without risk! request I’ll note that Deflinger cut off the networks after the battle, so this is not a problem ... request
                      26. -1
                        April 26 2020 21: 49
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        What is it like? If you are talking about the night before the battle, then Japanese destroyers stood next to him all night.

                        How scary to live !!! laughing

                        Sorry of course, but your argument is even funnier.
                      27. 0
                        April 26 2020 22: 20
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        your argument is even funnier.

                        you don’t have it at all.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Sorry of course

                        Nothing, nothing, I'm used to what you are talking nonsense :))
  23. +3
    April 22 2020 19: 02
    I join in numerous comments.
    Waited for your articles. Thank!
    From the description that I came across earlier .. The actions of the Emerald commander after breaking away from the squadron are unambiguously positive, albeit unsuccessful in the end.
    It looks like we read the same sources good
    Rurikovich separate hi
  24. +3
    April 23 2020 01: 20
    Our friend Andrey again did not hesitate to insert into the article the same absolutely left table with fuel reserves compiled by the senior officer of the Almaz armored cruiser, 2nd Rank Captain Dyachkov, purely out of curiosity on the morning signals from the ships. And nobody instructed Dyachkov to collect this data, and the commanders of the ships of the squadron hardly bothered themselves with a complete inventory of coal pits every morning. Obviously, the numbers on this tablet are speculative. Moreover, the commanders tried to disguise reality in their own way. Those who wanted to get rid of unnecessary loading, who, on the contrary, took additional tons out of greed.

    A vivid example of the striking discrepancy between the numbers of reality, the Emerald's sister-thorn is Pearl. It may be recalled that after the battle, his commander "suddenly" discovered a supply of coal that would allow him to get all the way to Manila, although before that he had hardly hoped to reach Shanghai. Despite the fact that according to Dyachkov's plate, Pearl has even less coal than Emerald, only 422 tons against 522 tons. By the way, those who wish can look at the map and make sure that from Fr. Tsushima to Vladivostok will be about 1200 km (not in a straight line), and to Manila about 2400 km (also not in a straight line). At the same time, Zhemchug had enough fuel for these 2400 km, and for some reason, Emerald did not have enough fuel for 1200 km.

    The difference in power reserve is already twice as suggestive of serious thoughts about the reasons for such fantastic differences. Or the commander of the Emerald and about the lack of coal is lying, or something strange with its consumption at the Emerald in comparison with the exact same Pearl.
    1. +1
      April 23 2020 02: 48
      Quote: Saxahorse
      according to the Dyachkov’s tablet, Pearl’s coal is even less than that of Emerald, only 422 tons against 522 tons.
      At the same time, Pearls were enough for these 2400 km of fuel, and for some reason the Emerald was not enough for 1200 km ..

      "Izumrud" approached Vladimir Bay 16 (sixteenth) May in the first hour of the night, and "Pearl" in Manila - 21 (twenty-first) of May, approximately at 16:00 - 17:00.
      Let's move on.
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Or the commander of the Emerald and about the lack of coal is lying, or something strange with its consumption at the Emerald in comparison with the exact same Pearl.

      Take the Novik cruiser, for example.
      On acceptance tests, the average consumption of coal at full speed was about one kilograms per one horsepower. The total capacity of the machines amounted to 17 789 liters. sec., therefore, per hour at medium speed 25 nodes on "Novik" burned up to eighteen tons of coal, respectively, per day it would come out 432 (four hundred thirty two) tons.
      At the same time, when 10 nodes daily coal consumption on the cruiser was 35 tons.
      Quote: Saxahorse
      The difference in power reserve is already twice as suggestive of serious thoughts about the reasons for such fantastic differences.

      So think about how much Novik could pass at a speed of 25 knots with the same supply of coal, and how much at a speed of 10 knots.
    2. +4
      April 23 2020 17: 16
      armored cruiser "Almaz"

      Which one
      1. 0
        April 23 2020 22: 26
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        Which one

        Good question! Should I inadvertently quote Andrei, I immediately find myself in a ridiculous position. wassat

        Let Andrei himself and ask how he managed to find the armor of the former yacht of the governor Almaz. laughing
    3. +4
      April 23 2020 19: 01
      Quote: Saxahorse
      A vivid example of the striking discrepancy between the numbers of reality, the Emerald's sister-thorn is Pearl. It may be recalled that after the battle, his commander "suddenly" discovered a supply of coal that would allow him to get all the way to Manila, although before that he had hardly hoped to reach Shanghai. Despite the fact that according to Dyachkov's plate, Pearl has even less coal than Emerald, only 422 tons against 522 tons.

      Saxacors, how many times told you - before you write, learn to read.
      According to Dyachkov, the coal reserves at Zhemchug are 492 tons, not 422.
      Quote: Saxahorse
      The difference in power reserve is already twice as suggestive of serious thoughts about the reasons for such fantastic differences.

      M-dya. You know, I will not even joke about your "serious thoughts". I'll just explain on my fingers what it was about
      First, the Zhemchug mechanic made a mistake somewhere and the actual coal supply turned out to be 80 tons more than the calculated one. Perhaps Levitsky knew about it, or maybe not, although I think he knew. But how can this episode be blown up to
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Obviously, the numbers on this plate are speculative. Moreover, the commanders tried to disguise reality, each in its own way.

      Can you confirm this with at least some evidence? On which other ships did the estimated stocks differ greatly from the actual ones?
      But this alone already tells us that the actual coal reserve on Pearls on the morning of May 13 was GREATER than on Emerald. 492 t + 80 t = 572 t on Pearls versus 522 t on Emerald.
      And then - everything is very, very simple. The pearls were more or less ready when he went camping, but the Emerald was corny not finished building. In the cycle I described this moment many times. Emerald machines were obviously much more voracious than Pearls. At the same time, after a daytime battle on May 14, pearls went after Oleg and Aurora only at 17-18 knots, after midnight - they reduced the speed to 12, then to 10 knots and then they were already going to an economical vehicle. That is, if on the afternoon of May 14, the speed modes of Emerald and Pearl are comparable (only Emerald should have spent a lot more coal than Pearl due to the loose cars), and then the Pearl did not have to burst for 4,5 hours at maximum speed.
      The difference in coal costs has already been brought to you by a respected Comrade. At full speed, the Emerald spent MUCH more than Pearls 17-18 knots.
      All this allowed Zhemchug to reach Manila, and there are no "fantastic discrepancies"
      1. 0
        April 23 2020 22: 47
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Saxacors, how many times told you - before you write, learn to read. According to Dyachkov, the coal reserves at Zhemchug are 492 tons, not 422.

        Congratulations! You caught me on the door! And you too !! good
        A little higher, with a hint from the "senior sailor" they laughed at your pearl about "armored diamond". laughing


        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Can you confirm this with at least some evidence? On which other ships did the estimated stocks differ greatly from the actual ones?
        But this alone already tells us that the actual coal reserve on Pearls on the morning of May 13 was GREATER than on Emerald. 492 t + 80 t = 572 t on Pearls versus 522 t on Emerald.

        You make me happy right with every comment. Already the fact that the actual coal reserve at Zhemchug was probably more than 80 tons and clearly confirms the unrealistic figures of Dyachkov. Why did you decide that there, in the table, is even one figure correct? Maybe he also confused the Pearl with the Emerald?

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        That is, if on the afternoon of May 14, the high-speed modes of Emerald and Pearl are comparable (only the Emerald should have spent a lot more coal on them than the Pearl due to the loose cars)

        It should be noted that just in the daytime battle the modes of Emerald and Pearl are clearly different. If Zhemchug rushed the whole battle after Oleg and Aurora leading the battle at full speed (18-19 knots, however), then Emerald modestly hid behind battleships crawling at 9 knots, as we remember. I would bet on a much higher coal consumption at Pearl. Well, the quality of the cars of both ships was equally bad. And if the design power reserve was 6000 miles, then in fact the "stones" showed 3520 miles with a full reserve of 535 tons. approximately 0,15 tonnes per mile. So your guess of 50 tons of "extra" at Pearl is about 600 km. course. Which does not completely cover the difference of 1200 km. in the power reserve.

        In general, the riddle of excessive fuel consumption on the Emerald seems so far a muddy and incomprehensible problem.
        1. +3
          April 24 2020 09: 44
          Quote: Saxahorse
          If Pearl darted the whole battle for Oleg and Aurora leading the battle in full swing (18-19 knots however)

          Why do you think so? Pearl joined "Oleg" and "Aurora" only after sunset.
          P.S. About the "armored deck" in the signature under the table I did not immediately notice :))
          1. 0
            April 24 2020 22: 19
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            Why do you think so? Pearl joined "Oleg" and "Aurora" only after sunset.

            Goofy. Eco nailed you .. Sooner I praised your attentiveness. Come on and re-read the whole history of Tsushima pliz .. The real story ..

            I am aware that you have a big fan of the alternative, but it’s here that they talk about the real Tsushima, and not about the inventions of your colleagues in alternative history.
            1. +2
              April 24 2020 22: 53
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Sooner I praised your attention.

              When I need your praise, I will let you know :)))
              Quote: Saxahorse
              The real story.

              At 7 o’clock the sun went down, and Japanese destroyers attacked our frustrated and shocked squadron in different directions. The battleships turned "all of a sudden" to S, the cruisers, following their movement, too, but could not keep their order due to the scattered transports, and the darkness that went on, the ongoing battle and the attacks of the destroyers did not allow them to find the squadron and reconnect. The destroyers attacked by the cruiser "Oleg" and "Aurora" and, as it turned out later "Pearls", hiding all the lights, gave full swing.
              http://wunderwafe.ru/WeaponBook/Aurora/chap09.html
              so this one:
              Pearls darted the whole battle for Oleg and Aurora leading the battle in full swing

              did not have. "Monk" in the wake of "Aurora" went
              About 3 1/2 hours the cruisers (ours. — L.P.) again had to repel the enemy cruisers, and here the “Vladimir Monomakh” entered the wake of the “Aurora”
              But "Pearl" ....
              Quote: Saxahorse
              I know

              I am afraid no.
              1. -2
                April 24 2020 23: 03
                In an effort to repel the enemy and at the same time maintain their place on the non-firing side of our battleships, the (Russian - L.P.) cruiser again hit the crossfire of Nissin and Kassuga and a group of cruisers.

                Judging by this quote from your link, the authors of that article are not far from you, lovers of the alternative.

                It is not difficult to recall that Nissin and Kassuga did not go with a group of cruisers at all .. Instead of fiction performed by the ship's doctor V. S. Kravchenko, it is better to read the testimonies of combat officers, participants in the battle. At least the same Levitsky. fool
                1. +3
                  April 24 2020 23: 37
                  This is not an article or even Kravchenko's memoirs, but a book by Polenov. The very same excerpt, directly from the magazine of the cruiser "Aurora".
                  cruisers again hit the crossfire "Nissin" and "Kassuga" and a group of cruisers.

                  And how does this passage imply that the Garibaldians went with cruisers? What's confusing about the term crossfire?

                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  better read the testimony of military officers, participants in the battle. At least the same Levitsky.

                  Sure, not a problem. Cite an excerpt from which it follows that
                  Pearls darted the whole battle for Oleg and Aurora leading the battle in full swing
                  with the correct link. \
                  P.S. Apparently, you did not read Kravchenko either, since he has nothing of the kind :)
                2. +3
                  April 25 2020 00: 23
                  Do you need Levitsky?
                  https://dlib.rsl.ru/viewer/01005079885#?page=51
                  According to his testimony, "Pearl" at 16-00 (and not the whole battle) went to the wake not for "Aurora", but for "Monomakh". I hope you won't argue that this old cruiser also clocked up to 19 knots?
                  And on the next page at 6-30, "Pearl" goes in a column with "Almaz and" Svetlana, and "Oleg", "Aurora", "Donskoy" and "Monomakh" separately.
                  What did you interpret about AI there?
                  1. -2
                    April 26 2020 21: 04
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    What did you interpret about AI there?

                    At least you reread Khromov, whom Andrei almost quotes verbatim in his cycle ...

                    Pearls were among the transports immediately after the death of Oslyaby, literally half an hour after the start of the battle. After the turmoil (caused by the appearance of the Japanese cruisers) and the collision with the Urals, Pearl entered the battle with the Japanese cruisers.

                    At 16 o'clock, when there was a pause in the battle, Enquist ordered his cruisers to be built, at this command Pearl entered the wake of Monomakh. Which in itself confirms that all the time before that, he fought together with the Enquist cruisers. (unlike Emerald, which continued to work as a repetitive flagship vessel). After and until the end of the battle, there is no longer any doubt that the Pearls held the flagship Oleg and Aurora in the battle.

                    You can read about this with Levitsky, who confirms that holding onto Aurora was not too easy, since the cruiser was overloaded.

                    The fact that in the end just these three cruisers came out of the battle to the south, even you think you will not risk refuting ..
                    1. 0
                      April 26 2020 21: 40
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      The pearl turned out to be

                      Sorry, I was not interested in your speculation, but asked for confirmation of your words
                      If Pearl darted the whole battle for Oleg and Aurora leading the battle in full swing (18-19 knots however) from the testimony of Levitsky, to whom you yourself referred.
                      And from the words of Levitsky, it definitely follows that if he rushed about, then certainly not behind the cruisers, but around the battleships. As well as "Emerald".
                      And joined the Enquist cruisers around 16-00
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      The fact that in the end just these three cruisers came out of the battle to the south, even you think you will not risk refuting ..

                      Why should I refute this, if I wrote about it from the very beginning? :)) It's just that this squad was in this composition ("Oleg", "Aurora" and "Pearl"), just after sunset.
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      You at least reread Khromov

                      The Aurora magazine did not convince you. Levitsky, you have not justified the high confidence you have shown ... now you are trying to weave Khromov.
                      Well let it be Khromov ...
                      At 16.10, so as not to interfere with the fire of his armadillos, the Pearl joined the cruiser detachment, joining the wake of Vladimir Monomakh, and fired with Japanese cruisers attacking transports. At 17.25 the battle stopped ...

                      ..k 21.00 behind "Svetlana" and "Diamond". In complete darkness, the “Pearl” also nearly lost, but Captain 2nd rank Levitsky, smelling smoke and showing his lantern Ratier his call signs, took a place on the left beam “Aurora”, so as not to lose sight of “Oleg”. At 23.00 we left the strait

                      Who else are you referring to?
                      1. -1
                        April 27 2020 22: 56
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Who else are you referring to?

                        I refer for example to Andrew laughing
                        In the last period of time, the Emerald was still trying to fulfill its role as a "rehearsal and rescue" ship with the main forces, and the "Pearl" joined the cruisers of Rear Admiral O.A. Enquista.

                        With the amendment, that the Pearl joined the cruisers immediately after the death of Oslyaby.

                        I don’t understand how to argue with the obvious facts. Pearls are trying to get around Nebogatov from the south, maneuvering among transports, colliding with the Ural cruiser, following Enquist's orders, but you insistently insist that he was not there .. You have some kind of logic problems. All facts directly indicate that Levitsky fought in the southern group of ships under the general control of Enquist.
                      2. 0
                        April 28 2020 09: 53
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        In the last time lapse

                        No objection. For in the last gapbut not at all rushed the whole battleas you deigned to write recently.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        I don’t understand how to argue with the obvious facts.

                        All that is actually obvious is that you have not read carefully the sources you are trying to link to.
                        With the amendment, that the Pearl joined the cruisers immediately after the death of Oslyaby.

                        But they began to participate in the battle of the cruiser Enquist at 14-30. "Oslyabya" began to sink at 15-15 (3 from 1/4 according to the testimony of Levitsky), and "Pearl" joined the cruisers at about 16-00.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        fulfills the orders of Enquist

                        And, of course, it won't be difficult for you to list exactly which orders of Enquist were carried out by "Pearl"?
                        Simply, Dobrotvorsky writes that he advised the admiral to take command of himself to give orders to the stone commanders to drive off the Japanese destroyers, but Enquist said that they were not subordinate to him. And it was about 18 hours.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        but you insistently insist that he was not there ..

                        No need to juggle. I insist that your statement that the "Pearl" rushed after "Oleg" and "Aurora" during the whole battle, and even at a speed of 18-19 knots, was sucked from the finger.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        You have some logic problems

                        No. It is your knowledge problems that you are stubbornly trying to replace with your speculation.
                      3. 0
                        April 28 2020 22: 34
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        But they began to participate in the battle of the cruiser Enquist at 14-30. "Oslyabya" began to sink at 15-15 (3 from 1/4 according to the testimony of Levitsky), and "Pearl" joined the cruisers at about 16-00.

                        You have obvious problems with the chronology. Oslyabya rolled out of action and rolled back at 14:32, Pearls hanging on the traverse of the second flagship immediately dived into the hole between Orel and Sisoy and also went south behind Oslyabya, but on the other side of the line. However, already at 14:50 Oslyabya capsized. The pearls abandoned attempts to bypass Nebogatov from the south and cut through the BWO system just because he also saw the Japanese cruisers.

                        Further I mentioned above, maneuvering between traveling vehicles and a collision with the Urals. He opened fire on the Japanese at the same time, about 15 hours. He simply had nowhere to go but to snuggle up against the Enquist cruisers. And at the time you mentioned 16 hours there was just a pause in the battle and Enquist ordered the cruisers to build up so that they wouldn’t rush about ..
                      4. 0
                        April 29 2020 09: 15
                        You have obvious problems with the chronology.

                        you yourself referred to Levitsky. And in his testimony it is written exactly like this:
                        I sent the cruiser at full speed into the interval formed by the Oslyabya's failure and under the stern of the Orel jumped out to the left side of our squadron. It was 3 1/4 o'clock in the afternoon. "Oslyabya" was drowning at this time ...

                        Note that the cruisers have already entered the battle for almost an hour, but "Pearl" does not even think to join them.
                        Pancake, Read materials to which you refer !!!
                        And at the 16 hours you mentioned

                        Zhemchug finally really joined Enquist's cruisers and stood behind the Monomakh, which even in his youth could not reach the speed of 18-19 knots, which you talk about.
                        Which, sobsno, was required to prove. Your statement that "Pearl" whole battle rushed after "Oleg" and "Aurora" at a speed of 18-19 knots, not confirmed. Accordingly, your inference
                        I would put on a much greater consumption of coal from Pearls.

                        has no foundation.
                      5. 0
                        April 29 2020 22: 56
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Your statement that "Zhemchug" rushed after "Oleg" and "Aurora" during the whole battle at a speed of 18-19 knots is not confirmed.

                        Okay, convinced! hi

                        Also read what eyewitnesses write. The truth is that Levitsky obviously does it in time, but the transports saw him from the very beginning of the battle and thank him for his support. For example, the Irtysh separately noted the help of the Don group, Monomakh, Pearl and Emerald. Unlike Oleg and Aurora, they either appeared or ran away.

                        Pearls, however, still ran more in that battle than the Emerald attached to the battleships somewhere around 16 hours.
                      6. 0
                        April 29 2020 23: 10
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        For example, the Irtysh separately noted the help of the Don group, Monomakh, Pearls and Emerald.

                        Hallelujah!
                      7. 0
                        April 29 2020 23: 30
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Hallelujah!

                        However, we are talking about the first part of the cruising battle, it turns out that the "stones" were the first to come to the aid of Monomakh, who entered the battle with Uriu and Virgo. However, later, in the second part of the battle, Emerald still returned to the battleships, and Pearl continued to run with the cruisers.
        2. +1
          April 24 2020 20: 43
          Quote: Saxahorse
          And you too !!

          Yes, please :))) Only now I’ve gotten into a big article on a tertiary issue, and you, in a short commentary on the issue raised. Anyway.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Already the fact that the actual coal reserve at Zhemchug was probably more than 80 tons and clearly confirms the unrealistic figures of Dyachkov.

          No, it does not confirm. You such a notion as the representativeness of the sample at school skipped? One does not judge many.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          It should be noted that just in the daytime battle, the modes of Emerald and Pearl are clearly different.

          Do not want to read my articles - read other sources. I repeat, there were no special differences.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          If Pearl darted the whole battle for Oleg and Aurora leading the battle in full swing (18-19 knots however), then the Emerald humbly hid behind armadillos crawling at 9 knots, as we recall.

          Your memory is frankly bad. Until 16.00 Emerald and Pearl were at the battleships, after 16.00 BOTH CRUISERS fought together with Oleg and Aurora. The only difference was that the pearls were exactly what joined, and the Emerald acted independently, but next to the rest. By the way, I was especially amused by your passage about "the whole fight". Pearl fought with Aurora and Oleg for exactly one hour, from 16 to 17, well, maybe until 17.15
          And yes, after that, the Emerald also ran to Alexander III, and then was forced to flee from the BRKR, drawing close to them with 23 cables.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Well, the quality of the cars on both ships was equally poor.

          Which is completely not confirmed by any document. All sources report that the Emerald was much worse.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          So your guess of 50 tons of "extra" at Pearl is about 600 km. course.

          (heavy sigh) Yes, for 4,5 hours at full speed on May 15, the Emerald could easily lime 100-120 tons or more. coal consumption at Zhemchuga with its maximum of 18 knots there and did not lie close
          1. -3
            April 24 2020 22: 39
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            No, it does not confirm. You such a notion as the representativeness of the sample at school skipped? One does not judge many.

            I begin to doubt that you are truly an economist by training. Representativeness implies, above all, the integrity of the sample. And it’s not at all a scribble of a bug-eyed starpom confusing ships with a hangover. There is no confirmation that at least one of the figures drawn by Dyachkov corresponds to reality. But the very first figure subjected to real verification turned out to be grossly distorted.

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Do not want to read my articles - read other sources. I repeat, there were no special differences.

            You are not a Buddha or a Mohammed to demand such reverence for his writings. None of your articles on increased coal consumption were exactly the ones that Emerald said.

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Your memory is frankly bad. Until 16.00 Emerald and Pearl were with armadillos, after 16.00 BOTH KRAISER fought along with Oleg and Aurora.

            I can't help but be amazed at the flight of your imagination. You are corny lying or confusing. I recommend that you tackle another article called "Battle of the cruising forces at Tsushima." It looks like you suddenly learn a lot of new things for yourself.

            I repeat once again, in the Tsushima battle, Pearl joined the cruisers and the Emerald continued to play the role of a rehearsal vessel with the main forces, 2TOE battleships. And he really tried to repeat the signals of the flagship or matelot at every moment of the battle! I already blamed you for completely ignoring this point in your articles. It turns out that you not only ignored all the available evidence, but managed to draw your own, honestly delusional, conclusions ..

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Which is completely not confirmed by any document. All sources report that the Emerald was much worse

            It seems you should re-read the entire cycle of your own articles. Emerald had a bunch of problems with piping and seals! It was the colossal leaks in all the pipes that made him overhaul right on the hike. But there wasn’t even a word about coal overrun twice as compared to Pearls!

            By the way, if Dyachkov really confused the Emerald with the Pearl in his ridiculous tablet, then this fully explains the Pearl's head start in terms of the power reserve. The difference of 30 tons + 80 tons "from the bedside table" at Levitsky is just 110 tons, or 1350 km of travel.
            1. +2
              April 25 2020 09: 02
              Quote: Saxahorse
              And it’s not at all a scribble of a bug-eyed starpom confusing ships with a hangover.

              Saxahorse, every time you once again break the bottom, and it seems to me that there is nowhere to fall below, it turns out that I'm wrong.
              Quote: Saxahorse
              There is no confirmation that at least one of the figures drawn by Dyachkov corresponds to reality

              There is only ONE case in which these numbers are incorrect. Accordingly, in other cases, deviations were not detected. Levitsky separately described the mechanic’s mistake when he knocked out the amount of coal after the battle. At the same Emerald, there was no talk of errors, of unaccounted coal, which does not allow us to suspect incorrect accounting of coal. The same goes for other ships.
              Quote: Saxahorse
              I begin to doubt that you are truly an economist by training.

              I have long doubted that you went to school, and so what? With coal, you proceed from logic: "You have not been to Berlin? Give me a certificate that you have not been to Berlin!"
              Quote: Saxahorse
              I recommend that you tackle another article entitled "Battle of the cruising forces at Tsushima"

              I recommend you re-read it again.
              Quote: Saxahorse
              You are not a Buddha or a Mohammed to demand such reverence for his writings.

              Rave. I wrote
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Do not want to read my articles - read other sources.

              What respect is there?
              Quote: Saxahorse
              I repeat once again, in the Tsushima battle, Pearl joined the cruisers and the Emerald continued to play the role of a rehearsal vessel with the main forces, 2TOE battleships.

              I repeat - you write nonsense.
              Quote: Saxahorse
              It seems you should re-read the entire cycle of your own articles. Emerald had a bunch of problems with piping and seals! It was the colossal leaks in all the pipes that made him overhaul right on the hike. But there wasn’t even a word about coal overrun twice as compared to Pearls!

              Saxahorse, the second obviously follows from the first. Loss of coolant APRIORI means greater fuel consumption.
              1. -1
                April 26 2020 21: 31
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                There is only ONE case in which these numbers are incorrect.

                In the complete absence of cases when these numbers suddenly turned out to be TRUE - Sorry but you just drive some garbage crying

                Again. Not once did Dyachkov’s numbers be confirmed. They are all taken from the ceiling.

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Saxahorse, the second obviously follows from the first. Loss of coolant APRIORI means greater fuel consumption.

                But you seem to have forgotten your own articles! After all, they repaired the pipe to the Emerald! He stopped flowing at all seams! Otherwise, he would have died under Tsushima :)

                It looks like you forgot how to argue. Take the arguments directly from the ceiling, refute yourself ten times .. laughing
                1. 0
                  April 27 2020 16: 26
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  In the complete absence of cases when these figures suddenly turned out to be TRUE -

                  Given that in other cases of excess / lack of coal was not detected - the remaining cases are true. Until the opposite is proved. You are not proven, so
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Sorry but you just drive some garbage

                  However, I have long been accustomed to your "argumentation" :)
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  But you seem to have forgotten your own articles! After all, they repaired the pipe to the Emerald! He stopped flowing at all seams!

                  Wow:)))
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  It looks like you forgot how to argue. Arguments directly from the ceiling you take, disprove yourself ten times.

                  Saxahorse, factory imperfections impossible to fix in a campaign. To patch up - it is possible, but only. So - as always - by.
                  1. -1
                    April 27 2020 23: 16
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Saxahorse, factory imperfections impossible to fix in a campaign. To patch up - it is possible, but only. So - as always - by.

                    As always, you did not understand the essence of the problems of the Emerald. Pulling and fitting pipe / steam-wire seals is a completely solvable task, wrench in hand and go! If this work had not been completed, the Emerald is not that 21 knots could not be developed; by the evening of the 14th, it would have already stood. Let me remind you that in the voyage fresh water ran out for him in less than a day, it just flowed endlessly, then he requested water from Oleg, then he rushed to the nearest port urgently.
                  2. 0
                    April 29 2020 23: 17
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Given that in other cases of excess / lack of coal was not detected - the remaining cases are true. Until the opposite is proved. You are not proven, so

                    Since I had to get into the testimony of eyewitnesses, examining the battle of cruisers, the sea of ​​these very "cases of surplus / shortage" that you managed to "overlook" was immediately discovered. I will not be lazy and remind you:

                    The cruiser Svetlana - coal at the beginning of the battle 620 tons in pits and 200 tons in bags. At Dyachkov we see only 626 tons.

                    Cruiser Emerald - Fersen reports loading 750 tons on May 10, in the last coal intake, at Dyachkov on the morning of 11/05, only 629 tons behind Emerald. The difference is 120 tons.

                    The cruiser Pearls, we disassembled, suddenly there were 80 tons of unaccounted for.

                    Cruiser Almaz - in the morning 560 tons, the remainder in Vladivostok 180 tons - this is from the testimony of commander Chagin. This is confirmed by one of the hold mechanics - more than 500 tons in the pits. Dyachkov has 476 tons in the table. HERE how did he do it !? Especially if you remember that Dyachkov was the head of Chagin .. laughing

                    Well, the consumption of Pearls and Emerald is not difficult to compare by looking at the full plate of the same Dyachkov. Here you are partly right, Emerald spent a little more. If Pearls spent 47-51 tons per day, then Emerald 49-53 tons of coal per day on average. However, this difference of about 8% is not sufficient to explain the Pearl's two-time handicap in the power reserve.
                    1. +1
                      April 30 2020 04: 27
                      [/ quote] However, this difference of about 8% is not enough to explain the two-time handicap of the Pearl in the power reserve. [quote]

                      In the morning, the enquist went at an economic speed of no more than 10 knots, and Fersen spied like a sting at 13 knots, burning all the coal that would have been enough for Sakhalin.
                      1. 0
                        April 30 2020 21: 51
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        In the morning, the enquist went at an economic speed of no more than 10 knots,

                        The difference in 10 and 13 knots is not so great in terms of consumption. Much more than 16-18 knots in battle give. Here, besides everything, Dyachkov confused everything with his tablets, Well, the others tried. Fersen to listen so he should have remained 120 tons, enough for Kamchatka, but he did not dare to drift, climbed into the dangerous bay in the dark.
                      2. +1
                        1 May 2020 04: 35
                        [/ quote] The difference in 10 and 13 nodes is not so great in terms of consumption. [quote]

                        Fersen writes that he had 12-00 tons of coal left at 16-60 on May 70. Here's another thing that could have worked: "F" in the morning on May 15 turned off unnecessary boilers, but "I" did not, and it turns out that the stroke of 13 knots, and all the boilers were in operation (had pairs for immediate full speed) and the coal consumption could be as for 18-20 knots. Moreover, "I", before Nebogatov's delivery, walked at 13 nodes, and "F" already in the morning, could turn off unnecessary boilers from work.
                      3. 0
                        1 May 2020 21: 04
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Fersen writes that at 12-00 on May 16 he left 60-70 tons of coal.

                        Fersen managed to write that on the 10th he loaded 750 tons of coal. With 535 tons of maximum capacity in Emerald coal pits, the figure is impressive. Although the same Levitsky wrote that because of piles of coal taken directly to the deck, there was a deformation of the turning mechanisms of the first side guns. They began to wedge when turning horizontally.
                    2. 0
                      1 May 2020 15: 33
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      I will not be lazy and recall:

                      In vain :))) Because you do not understand what to compare with and again sit in a puddle
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      The cruiser Svetlana - coal at the beginning of the battle 620 tons in pits and 200 tons in bags. At Dyachkov we see only 626 tons.

                      That's right, because the rest of the coal was not intended to support the cruiser's progress, but was used to protect "various weak parts of the cruiser", elevator mechanisms, etc. which follows from the testimony of the mechanic and other officers of the cruiser. In total, we have 620 tons in readings and 626 for Dyachkov. Openwork, since the officers indicated approximate figures in their testimonies.
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      Cruiser Emerald - Fersen reports loading 750 tons on May 10

                      According to the memory, a year and 7 months after the events. He particularly notes that all the records have already been handed over to them on an instance and his report may be incorrect in some way. That is, the figures of Dyachkov’s faith are much more
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      Cruiser Almaz - in the morning 560 tons, the remainder in Vladivostok 180 tons - this is from the testimony of commander Chagin. This is confirmed by one of the hold mechanics - more than 500 tons in the pits. Dyachkov has 476 tons in the table. HERE how did he do it !?

                      You're lying, not blushing.
                      Chagin really showed the presence of 560 tons of coal. But here, just to Dyachkov, there is more faith, since the commander showed from memory. But the hold mechanic confirms the data of Dyachkov
                      On the day of the battle, May 14, the overload must have also been, but not in coal, which remained only in coal pits, but in other reserves. How much coal and water were there by the morning of May 14, I do not remember; I think that there were about 500 tons of coal, since, upon arrival in Vladivostok, we had about 170-180 tons of coal left.

                      For reference - 476 tons, this is just about 500 tons :))))
                      1. 0
                        1 May 2020 20: 47
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Correct, because the rest of the coal was not intended to support the cruiser's progress, but was used to protect "various weak parts of the cruiser"

                        Eco has thrown you in! Those. coal in bags for use in boilers is by no means suitable? laughing

                        Remind you that some had to tear off the wooden deck sheathing and shove it into the boilers? The argument "childish" cannot be said otherwise. wink

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Chagin really showed the presence of 560 tons of coal. But there’s just more Dyachkov’s faith

                        And here you are digging a hole for yourself .. Because Chagin's version, in which 380 tons of coal is obtained for a battle plus a campaign, correlates well with the result of the Emerald. This is exactly what is roughly, very rough, should have turned out and Emerald. Of course, without Fersen's crazy ideas about "another 120 tons". Although the fact that they are delusional is difficult to prove on the fly request

                        But if we take Dyachkov as the main argument (although it is strange to reject the official testimony of the commander ..) the ends do not converge at all, and the question is what kind of garbage with coal it rises to its full height!
                      2. 0
                        2 May 2020 09: 29
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Eco has thrown you in! Those. coal in bags for use in boilers is by no means suitable?

                        The question is that the ship reported on the coal used for the move, that's all :)))) Of course, the "protective" coal could also be thrown into the furnace, but it was supposed to be kept as protection. Hence the data of the report, which fully correspond to the data of Dyachkov.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        The argument "childish" cannot be said otherwise.

                        I understand that it’s a shame, well, why do you argue with me? Here you are guaranteed a permanent bad mood :)))
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        And here you are digging a hole for yourself .. Because the version of Chagin, which produces 380 tons of coal per battle plus a campaign, correlates well with the result of the Emerald.

                        laughing fool
                        Saxahorse, are you in your mind comparing directly the Emerald and the Diamond? Ships with completely different machines, with their different conditions, with completely different running conditions in Tsushima and after ... He found a correlation, well, you need it :))))
                      3. 0
                        2 May 2020 21: 32
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The question is that the ship reported on the coal used for the move, that's all:

                        So I’m saying this to you! Morning reports are stupidly collected on Dyachkov’s tablet, in addition, either by Dyachkov’s or signalmen. None of the commanders was eager to show their reserves exactly, all in the end found stash and considerable!

                        I probably won't say anything about the "protective coal", this is your next wonderful pearl. Let's save it for posterity. wink

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Saxahorse, are you in your mind comparing directly the Emerald and the Diamond? Ships with completely different cars,

                        In my common sense, I (by your prayers of course) have no doubt whatsoever. The machines on all the pebbles are exactly the same! laughing

                        All "stones" had triple expansion steam engines of approximately the same power per piece. Diamond has two, Pearl and Emerald have three. The sizes of the "pebbles" are almost the same, which means that the power is spent at the same speed about the same. Diamond, just like Pearl and Emerald, fought at 16 knots, sometimes accelerating to 18 knots. As a result, 380 tons spent by Almaz on the battle and the march to Vladik can be easily compared with the consumption of both Pearls and Emeralds.

                        By your efforts, I really noticed that Emerald spent on average 8% more coal. But even so, and taking into account Valentine’s opinion about 18 tons per hour at full speed, we get from Emerald the balance of 30-40 tons, essentially a day of economic progress. Ferzen should not have climbed Olga Bay at night. Coal was quite enough to hold out at sea until the morning.
                      4. +1
                        3 May 2020 00: 12
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        So I’m saying this to you! Morning reports are stupidly collected on Dyachkov’s tablet, in addition, either by Dyachkov’s or signalmen.

                        Alas, from the fact that you repeated it 100500 times, your words do not become true :)
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        I probably won't say anything about the "protective coal", this is your next wonderful pearl.

                        Lying is not good, Saxahorse. A lie is verified doubly stupid


                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        All "stones" had triple expansion steam engines of approximately the same power per piece. Diamond has two, Pearl and Emerald have three.

                        But this is a masterpiece in general. Nothing that 2 Diamond machines have less than 8 thousand horsepower. and three Emerald cars have 17 hp?
                      5. 0
                        3 May 2020 19: 43
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Lying is not good, Saxahorse. A lie is verified doubly stupid

                        And in what place did I lie to you? Why did you repeat and confirm my comment? I wrote to you three times that Svetlana had 620 tons of coal in pits and 200 tons in bags. You have carefully confirmed this .. And cho? wassat

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But this is a masterpiece in general. Nothing that 2 Diamond machines have less than 8 thousand horsepower. and three Emerald cars have 17 hp?

                        Well, as always, the main problem was to explain the basics of physics to the economist .. You really don’t understand that if Emerald had even a nuclear reactor, it would require the same power to develop the same speed as Diamond, with equal displacement and approximately equal contours! Learn physics at last Andrey! How many articles on the performance characteristics of warships have already been written and still such blunders in elementary physical questions! laughing
                      6. +2
                        3 May 2020 20: 57
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        And what?

                        And the fact that the "inaccuracy" you found has a rational explanation and does not refute Dyachkov's data
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Well, as always, the main problem was to explain to the economist the basics of physics ..

                        Very hard. Especially when you don’t know physics yourself.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        You really don’t understand that if Emerald had even a nuclear reactor, it would require the same power to develop the same speed as Diamond, with equal displacement and approximately equal contours!

                        If you were familiar with the basics of physics, you would realize that a ship with a width of 12,8 m and a draft of 5,33 m would have noticeably different contours than a ship with a width of 13,26 and a draft of 4,97 m. But they did not realize.
                        The most important thing is that Diamond was designed for a speed of 19 knots, Emerald - for 24 knots. And I don’t know how to skip physics at school, so as not to understand that for this, even with equal contours, the Emerald will need more powerful cars than Diamond. Yes, if they had equal contours (but this was not), then for the same speed the power would be approximately equal, but the speeds were laid unequal :))) Hence, the Emerald had more powerful machines, which, naturally different from those on Diamond
                        Fundamentals of Physics, Saxahorse
                      7. 0
                        5 May 2020 20: 28
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And the fact that the "inaccuracy" you found has a rational explanation and does not refute Dyachkov's data

                        It does not refute, but explains. Once again, Dyachkov brought into his table only the numbers that the commanders had instructed to transmit to the flagship in the morning calibration. Even of his cruiser, Almaz, of course, Dyachkov knew exactly how much coal he had in the pits, usually it was the senior officer who was assigned to prepare a daily stock report. However, the numbers that Chagin ordered to call the signalman, and not the actual 560 tons, were added to his tablet.

                        Shein’s inaccuracy (Svetlana) differs only in that on Svetlana they thought up an excuse in advance in case of flagship claims. Therefore, the stash of Svetlana - 30% of the reserves, and the stash of other cruisers is more modest, 20% hiccuped. By the way, pay attention to an approximately equal share, about 20%, apparently more was already noticeable and less toad did not allow. laughing

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Yes, if they had equal contours (but this was not), then for the same speed the power would be approximately equal, but the speeds were laid unequally :)))

                        That's what I am complaining about ... Have you understood what you said? With equal displacement and approximately the same contours (and they are all cruisers!) And even the same boilers, the fuel consumption will also be about the same. Of course not up to a gram! However, the difference is not by orders of magnitude or even many times, just look at the same Dyachkov plate for example. Diamond spent an angle in economy mode about 10% less than Pearls. However, in battle, at 16-18 angles I had to spend more on the contrary, for Diamond 18 knots is almost the most complete move! Because the figure of consumption corners Diamond, 380 tons, you can safely take as a basis plus / minus 5-10%.
                      8. +1
                        5 May 2020 18: 34
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Emerald even has a nuclear reactor, for the development of the same speed as Diamond, with equal displacement and approximately equal contours,

                        Uh ... equal contours of the yacht clipper stem and cruiser ram plow?

                      9. 0
                        5 May 2020 20: 31
                        A little higher, I already answered Andrei. Both ships have cruising contours. It makes no sense to calculate grams of fuel, and within 10%, both power and consumption will be the same.
                      10. +1
                        5 May 2020 22: 29
                        You wrote nonsense there.
                        cruising contours

                        This, sorry, what is it? Did the "goddesses", whose cars developed almost a thousand forces more than the design one, and had a knot less speed, had "cruising lines"? Are they exactly the same as those of the Varyag, which had the opposite situation during the tests?
                        and even identical boilers

                        No censorship words!
                        Where did you see the same boilers? Everything in the CMU is different there!
                        On the "pebbles" there are three four-cylinder machines (two low-pressure cylinders), on "Almaz" there are two - three-cylinder.
                        On the first three-shaft installation, on the second - two.
                        On the cruisers of the Nevsky Plant, Yarou boilers, on the Baltic - Belvili.
                        And ramming is very significant. It seems that Melnikov wrote that they ate at least the speed knot of the then ships.
                      11. -1
                        6 May 2020 01: 41
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Did the "goddesses", whose cars developed almost a thousand forces more than the design one, and had a knot less speed, had "cruising lines"?

                        Cruising contours are 8,35 for Diamond and 8,28 for Emerald. There is a difference but it is scanty. As for the boilers, you are right, I got excited, there was Bellville on the Diamond without an economizer, on the Emerald Yarroy instead of German boilers. However, here the difference is not fundamental, I wrote about it above.

                        Stop doing nonsense, look for truth in centimeters .. Machines of the same type show approximately the same results. I hope you do not need, like Andrei, to explain that the same power gives about the same speed and spends about the same amount of fuel?
                      12. +1
                        6 May 2020 12: 15
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Machines of the same type show approximately the same results.

                        That is, the difference between three and four-cylinder cars is not available to you?
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        explain that the same power gives about the same speed and spends about the same amount of fuel?

                        Only with other things being equal, but they are never equal.
                      13. 0
                        6 May 2020 22: 08
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Only with other things being equal, but they are never equal.

                        You are an avid alternate, have you really never tried to calculate your boat? The most important parameters are just the fullness coefficient, displacement and power of cars - from here they get the estimated speed.

                        All these parameters are the same for Diamond and Emerald. The difference in the number of screws or cylinders is calculated as a percentage. You are just acting up. wink
                      14. +1
                        7 May 2020 11: 44
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        All these parameters are the same for Diamond and Emerald.

                        Where is the same "machine power" there? there is more than a twofold difference.
                        Sorry, my censorship arguments are over :))
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        The most important parameters are just the coefficient of completeness

                        I don't know how you figured it out: " Cruising contours are 8,35 for Diamond and 8,28 for Emerald."
                        And what exactly is this coefficient (there are four of them), but I firmly know that the "pebbles" are longer and narrower than "Almaz", with more powerful machines. and this ratio is important for determining the speed.
                        And therefore, your example is completely incorrect.
                      15. 0
                        7 May 2020 23: 57
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Where is the same "machine power" there?

                        The speed is the same there! With the same machine power, the speed is the same as fuel consumption and vice versa !! laughing
                      16. +1
                        8 May 2020 09: 08
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        With the same machine power, the speed is the same as fuel consumption and vice versa !!

                        Two completely different ships ...
              2. +1
                April 27 2020 07: 36
                Oh, Andrei, I’m afraid, as it were, with petty criticism and nit-picking on issues of the fourth degree of importance that you haven’t discouraged you from writing further. not always amenable to reasonable explanation)
                1. +2
                  April 27 2020 16: 29
                  They won’t take it away :)) There are just two people, Yura27 and Saksakhors, who are trying to get out of my way to refute me at least in some way. Yura27 I understand why, I once decently crushed corns on the althistory, and the saxors ... Who knows, I’m not a psychiatrist.
                  In general, for them, any of my publications is like a rag for a bull. This has not bothered me for a long time.
                  1. 0
                    April 28 2020 05: 06
                    [/ quote] Jura27 it is clear why, I decently once crushed corns on him althistory [quote]

                    Everything was exactly the opposite - from you there was no criticism of my work, from me constant criticism of your fantasies, but solely on the case.
                    1. 0
                      April 28 2020 08: 40
                      Yes of course:)))))))
                      1. 0
                        April 28 2020 09: 15
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Yes of course:)))))))

                        They themselves admitted, I didn’t pull you by the tongue. wassat
                      2. +1
                        April 28 2020 09: 19
                        Yura, even though you know how to accept a polite refusal for warm approval, to Churchill you oh how far :))))))
  25. 0
    April 23 2020 04: 38
    Quote: vladcub
    , Yuri, you have not changed: you will find something to complain about with Andrei.
    Weak to lay out his own story? Criticizing without substantive arguments is easier than telling yourself

    Stability is a sign of mastery! laughing
    I have already laid out all the arguments in the comment - briefly and on the case.
  26. +3
    April 23 2020 13: 03
    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    Quote: VohaAhov
    I'll try to insert a photo of "Emerald", which shows how it is overloaded.

    It’s hard to judge without deepening marks ...

    I tried to combine 2 photos. Pay attention to the covers of the bow torpedo tubes and the covers for closing the anchor locks. On the top photo with normal load, and on the bottom with overload.
    1. 0
      April 23 2020 17: 15
      If close up, it’s far away
      1. +1
        April 23 2020 20: 51
        For some reason, only small pictures are inserted, but if you look closely, you can see.
        1. +1
          April 23 2020 23: 23
          And you can take a ruler and measure directly on the photo. You are right, in the lower photo Emerald sits much deeper.
  27. 0
    April 23 2020 17: 12
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: ser56
    Not bad - finally the cycle is completed ...

    No, more about Pearls will be :))))

    Fine. The longer the better: less gray
  28. +2
    April 25 2020 10: 32
    I want to apologize to the author, I got carried away with the dialogue with ser56 the article deserves more than this "mental masturbation" in the comments
    1. +1
      April 25 2020 12: 44
      No problems:))) hi drinks Sometimes the comments were much worse
      1. 0
        April 25 2020 14: 18
        Thank you for understanding
  29. +1
    April 26 2020 22: 49
    It would be nice to create a movie
    Tsushima battle show details
    Designate heroes, trace their fate
    And ship history forever reflect
  30. 0
    April 27 2020 09: 57
    fatigue by a 9-month transition


    A curious moment about fatigue. First, the fatigue was not in nine months, but only in three. And before that - two months "all inclusive" in Madagascar. Three months of peaceful transition, no hostilities were conducted. The commander of the "Emerald" Fersen did not engage in physical labor. He was on a navigational watch along with three other navigators. The cabin is comfortable. There was no need to hang around the bridge around the clock. And why did the Japanese or Arthurians not have fatigue by December 1904? They have 11 months of fighting behind them, the last months in difficult climatic conditions, repairs and exercises. But how did the officers stand in WWII?

    For some reason, in the entire history of wars, only in 2TOE the officers were "exhausted". The commanders "did not leave the bridges for days," and Rozhestvensky, moreover, was "crushed by the inordinate burden of responsibility." Well, with Rozhestvensky it is clear - as a zero organizer, and a paranoid, he took on the responsibilities of all staff officers and some of the officers of the "Suvorov" up to the boatswain, who oversees the washing of the deck. Therefore, I did not leave the bridge for days. The officers of Rozhdestvensky's headquarters were embarrassed to move away from the admiral, so they also stuck out on the bridge for days, that's why they didn't get enough sleep. But it was not much better on other ships either. For some reason, during the last months of the campaign, Rozhdestvensky announced a mine alert every night. The sailors, probably, could somehow sleep in shifts by the guns, and the officers had to stay awake at night, especially the ship's commander. Plus, Rozhestvensky irritated the ship commanders with information about the allegedly close presence of the Japanese, and added with rude treatment and nagging. It was from what the commanders, especially the punctual Germans, have continuous stress and lack of sleep, and even against the background of general defeatist sentiments.

    Bottom line: Felkersam died, Ignatius in an incomprehensible euphoria, Sventorzhetsky jumped overboard, Filipovsky sick, Krzhizhanovsky and Semenov dream of dying sooner, if only this torture would end up being lack of sleep. Rozhdestvensky drags a leg, i.e. also seriously unwell with psychosomatics. On the squadron (except for the non-wealthy detachment) there is general alarmism, defeatism and demoralization.
    1. +1
      April 27 2020 16: 21
      Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
      A curious moment about fatigue. First, the fatigue was not in nine months, but only in three. And before that - two months "all inclusive" in Madagascar.

      After that, reading the comment is no longer interesting. The Emerald arrived in Madagascar on February 1 as part of a catching-up detachment, and on March 3 the squadron left Nossi-Be.
      "All inclusive" included heat during the day, and at least 26 degrees of heat at night with humidity close to 100%. You would go there to rest so that understanding would come. At the same time, the officers were not lying on the beaches, but preparing the ships for the continuation of the campaign.
      I don’t see the point of commenting on the rest - you have 3 errors in each word.
      1. 0
        April 30 2020 05: 55
        "All inclusive" included heat during the day, and at least 26 degrees of heat at night with humidity close to 100%. You would go there to rest so that understanding would come.


        The Maldives is not far there, I would not mind rolling, there is no such money.

        Day frying, you can not argue with that. Duck heard a song about a mad dog and an Englishman? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMlyT_Sb7sg It’s easy to guess, in such a climate, assign shipwork in the morning and sleep in the afternoon. Felkersam, while walking alone through even hotter tropics, thought of this before. And now: he was good-naturedly joking with the lower ranks. We agree that a tired, exhausted man lacking sleep will not good-naturedly fool around, and even with the lower ranks. Rather, he will yell at them, break his shoulder blades and binoculars, disrupting a bad mood.
        1. +2
          April 30 2020 20: 37
          Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
          It’s not hard to guess, in such a climate, assign shipwork in the morning, and sleep in the afternoon.

          Again. Climb into an iron box, at a temperature of 26 degrees MINIMUM (even at night) with humidity below 100 and try to work :)))) I guarantee, on the third day you will really regret that you got involved in all this. And the service on the warship is constantly flowing, a lot of work and it is impossible to reduce everything to the morning hours.
          Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
          Felkersam, while walking alone through even hotter tropics, thought of this before. And now: he was good-naturedly joking with the lower ranks.

          Yes. True, he accidentally died before the battle.
          Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
          Rather, he will yell at them, break his shoulder blades and binoculars, disrupting a bad mood.

          And how much evidence of the regular breaking of binoculars on the head (apart from Novikov-Priboy which is impossible to count as a source)?
          1. -1
            3 May 2020 08: 18
            Yes, in an iron box, it's certainly awful, you can't argue with that. But this applies only to bilge and engine specialists who are involved in the repair of mechanisms. And there are four of them on the ship. All other officers and 80% of the crew do not need to go down below deck. The decks were then wooden - they don't burn. Above decks are awnings. There is always a fresh breeze on the sea. Everyone on the decks also slept at night, stripped naked, and the officers and sailors. The refrigerators on the ships worked (according to Semenov, the team escaped the heat with cold kvass). So with a smart daily routine, the parking lot wouldn't be all that different from an all-inclusive.

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            True, he accidentally died before the battle.


            He died when he himself was no longer able to plan the daily routine and allocate sufficient time for rest. In the meantime, he had such an opportunity; he didn’t die, he felt great.
  31. 0
    April 28 2020 13: 19
    A big plus of this material and the undoubted merit of the author: taking into account the psychological state of the cruiser commander and crew. Quite often military analysts lose sight of this important factor in the analysis of battles.
  32. 0
    5 May 2020 17: 56
    Dear experts! I am addressing you not quite on the topic. My distant relative was a midshipman and volunteered on a campaign, presumably in armadillos, and died with a ship. I want to find where you can see the lists of crews, to know what it was on and remember. I am now the oldest in the Family and I want my grandchildren to know about their ancestors. His line was cut short during the years of the Civil War, famine and the Second World War.

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