Military Review

Some aspects of the reward for courage in the failure of orders

86

The sad ending of the actions of the commander of the cruiser "Emerald" Baron Ferzen is presented in the photo above. Briefly consider how they (cruiser and commander) came to such a life.


At 10-30 a.m. on May 15, 1905 (all dates are in the old style), commander of the remnants of the 2nd and 3rd Pacific squadrons of K.-adm. Nebogatov raised the signal for surrender, which was rehearsed by all five Russian ships. But literally immediately, the commander of the cruiser "Emerald" ordered to lower the signal "Surrender" and began to go into the gap between the enemy units. Thus, bravely violating the order of the admiral.

Then, changing the course several times and reducing speed from 21-22 knots to 13, the cruiser came to a point with coordinates 42 ° N and 134 ° 50 'O (coordinates from the Ferzen report) at about 12-00 o'clock on May 16, 1905. (see attached map).

Here is what Ferzen himself writes in his report on this point:

"... headed for a point equally distant from Vladivostok and St. Vladimir’s Bay, decided to walk up to 50 miles from the coast and there, depending on circumstances, go either to Vladivostok or Vladimir."

As can be seen from the map, the above point was by no means at an equal distance from Vladivostok and s. Vladimir, i.e. the first was a little further than the second (modestly, 30 miles). A point that is actually located at an equal distance from the above points is indicated on the attached map by the letter "A".

Some aspects of the reward for courage in the failure of orders

Well, I missed a little, with whom it does not happen.

Further, a curious passage from the report on the battle of Fersen:

"At this point, it was necessary to decide where to go: to Vladivostok or Vladimir. I chose Vladimir, not Olga."

Wait, wait, Mr. Fersen, what does Olga have to do with it ?! It seems he chose between Vladivostok and Vladimir? Where did Vladivostok go? And in the quote above were Vladivostok and the bay of St. Vladimir. So easily Fersen Occam's razor cut off everything unnecessary.

Now imagine that in 1941 the commander, having received the order to take up defense at the Dubosekovo junction, judged that it was better to do this in Khamovniki, and eventually dug in a bar on Tverskaya. For this he would have been immediately shot at the verdict of the tribunal before the formation.

Therefore, the country in 1945 signed the surrender of the enemy in Berlin, and another country instead of peace in Tokyo signed its half-capitulation in Portsmouth.

But maybe Vladivostok is one of many fallback options? No, it was to go to Vladivostok that was the order of the commander of the adm. Christmas. That is, Ferzen easily and undoubtedly bravely violated the order of his superior for the second time. No wonder all the same he was given the golden weapon with the inscription "For courage". It was impossible to take away courage, it was only expressed in violation of orders.

It is clear that the order of Nebogatov was illegal, and Ferzen did the right thing that violated it, so there was a formal reason for the award. But why does this relate to courage, and not to knowing the charter and the determination not to obey an illegal order? Maximum draws on written encouragement from the authorities. Or a political decision to award, as was the case with Rudnev.

It is clear that in that war there were very few successes in the battle, but to reward for escaping from the battlefield when superiority in speed was used (and even without a single shot), somehow too much, given the subsequent cowardly undermining of the cruiser ...

Again, I quote the report on Fersen’s fight:

"Assuming that the currently free 6 cruisers who cut the course line of our detachment were immediately sent to look for me on the way to Vladivostok ..."

That is, Fersen assumed that the Japanese would catch him on the way to Vladivostok, and here the point where the cruiser arrived at 12:00 p.m. on May 16 has greater benefits compared to the equidistant point, if, of course, you obey the order and go to Vladivostok. The distance to the latter in a straight line is slightly less than 150 miles (on the map the direction is a black arrow and a line of the same color). The distance from the line of possible Japanese patrolling to Vladivostok is about 60 miles (assuming that the Russians will be caught at the entrance to St. Peter the Great, along the line of metro station Povorotny - metro Gamova).

Moreover, the patrol line is about 150 km, and the Japanese have chances only in the afternoon. At night, to catch a single cruiser is extremely unlikely, and if it is also faster (theoretically), then the chances are directly approaching zero.

Thus, the Emerald would need to cover 90 miles in 10 hours to cross the patrol line in the dark (including the approach to it in the dark), that is, leaving at 12 pm, the cruiser passes traverse at 22-00 m. Pivoting and further goes slowly to Vladivostok under cover of darkness. Miles 50 to the port “Emerald” communicate with Vladivostok on the radio and finds out the location of the passages in the minefields (in reality, minefields were only near the port, and the cruiser would calmly follow almost to the port entrance).

Now let's see the presence of coal on the cruiser at the point where the Emerald arrived at noon on May 16th.

Quoting Ferzen:
"... 60–70 tons of coal remains to only reach the port."

At the same time, the distance covered before landing aground is equal to the distance to Vladivostok: Ferzen chose the path not directly, but along the coast, with subsequent rotation on a perpendicular to the coast (see the attached map). And after landing aground, about 10 tons of coal remained. That is, there was enough fuel to reach Vladivostok, all the more so since the transition to the last one was required at 9 knots, and the Emerald went to Vladimir at a speed of 13 knots, which caused an increased consumption of coal. And even if the coal ran out, it would have happened at the port itself with its bookkeepers and other things (combat cover of BrK and batteries).

Thus, Fersen had everything: the right location, and coal in sufficient quantity, there was just no courage, or, more likely, sanity.

I would like to recall the opposite example - the commander of the Almaz yacht Chagin, who, being in a sober mind, without any panic, not afraid of minefields and mythical Japanese cruisers, calmly reached Vladivostok, following the order on his unarmored, slightly armed and not very strong high-speed yacht cruiser. At the same time, “Almaz” on May 14 all the time participated in the battle of light forces (unlike the “Emerald”) - and nothing, Chagin’s head was in order. He was awarded the Order of St. George, 4th degree.

And in conclusion, I’ll give a diagram attached to the report on Fersen’s battle. Who in the subject, he will appreciate the humor.

Author:
Photos used:
http://wunderwafe.ru/
86 comments
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  1. knn54
    knn54 2 May 2020 15: 35 New
    0
    The cruiser did not go to the enemy. The crew remained intact.
    For some reason, the author did not mention the malfunction of the steam pipeline. What caused the increased consumption of coal.
    ALL nerves were on the limit, the Japanese could appear at any time.
    The fact that the ship ran aground fault navigator officer Polushkin.
    1. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 2 May 2020 22: 22 New
      13
      Quote: knn54
      The fact that the ship ran aground fault navigator officer Polushkin.

      The fact that the ship ran aground, of course the fault of the commander. A-priory! And in this case, and in fact. The author not in vain reminded of quite decent fuel residues. There was no need to climb at night, in the darkness to the touch, into a narrow and dangerous bay. Fersen could just wait until dawn and make a decision with his eyes open. Really panic crushed the remnants of common sense.
    2. Jura 27
      3 May 2020 04: 54 New
      12
      Quote: knn54
      The cruiser did not go to the enemy. The crew remained intact.
      For some reason, the author did not mention the malfunction of the steam pipeline. What caused the increased consumption of coal.
      ALL nerves were on the limit, the Japanese could appear at any time.
      The fact that the ship ran aground fault navigator officer Polushkin.

      A great way to win the war is to blow up all the ships and flee beyond the Urals, and the enemy will not get the materiel and the whole crews.
      The pipeline went to auxiliary mechanisms (it was plugged) and did not influence coal consumption in any way.
      To Chagin, unlike some, the Japanese did not seem to be everywhere, - it was not for nothing that he mentioned him in the article, although he had a slightly armed yacht.
      1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
        Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 3 May 2020 12: 47 New
        -5
        And here the Urals, if the war was for the possession of Chinatown with the adjacent Everests and Korea. And the fact that Fersen blew up the ship did so correctly. It’s just that in 1905 this was not mainstream yet. But then the Bolsheviks torpedoed the Black Sea Fleet in 1918 (including the battleship “Empress Catherine the Great”), the Germans drowned the High Seas Fleet in Scapa Flow in 1919.
        1. Jura 27
          3 May 2020 15: 45 New
          +1
          [/ quote] blew up the ship, did the right thing. [quote]

          An excellent recipe for winning the war - we explode / drown our ships ourselves, save the crews.
          1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
            Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 3 May 2020 18: 33 New
            0
            Yuri, did you yourself serve in the navy or in the army? The team was led? Share your life experiences wink . In my opinion, the destruction of the cruiser is worthy of more respect than the meek surrender of the battle-worthy ships to the enemy. A heavy months-long hike, the Tsushima battle, a breakthrough ... To the belt, bow to them. It was scary and everyone wanted to live, but there was a concept of honor and dignity.
  2. ser56
    ser56 2 May 2020 15: 42 New
    +6
    The commander lost his nerves request
  3. Avior
    Avior 2 May 2020 16: 01 New
    -2
    Strange twists in an article
    About the enemy, his plans and capabilities, the commander of the cruiser did not know anything.
    Maybe he needed to go to Vladivostok, or maybe the commander assumed that the Japanese were about to attack him or something else
    Not knowing in detail the motivation of the commander’s decisions, it’s strange to judge their correctness
    1. Jura 27
      3 May 2020 04: 58 New
      +4
      Quote: Avior
      Strange twists in an article
      About the enemy, his plans and capabilities, the commander of the cruiser did not know anything.
      Maybe he needed to go to Vladivostok, or maybe the commander assumed that the Japanese were about to attack him or something else
      Not knowing in detail the motivation of the commander’s decisions, it’s strange to judge their correctness

      Strange twists and turns are Fersen's actions.
      I didn’t know, that’s no reason to break the order and go in the direction opposite to Stock. Motivations are perfectly understandable - insanity.
      1. Avior
        Avior 3 May 2020 06: 04 New
        -2
        Rozhdestvensky’s order did not stipulate the exact route, or possible stops along the way.
        Ferzen didn’t turn to Petersburg contrary to the order; he did not break the order.
        And not knowing the exact circumstances of the case and the motives of certain actions, to talk about madness, so you can go far.
        hi
        1. Jura 27
          3 May 2020 06: 45 New
          +3
          Quote: Avior
          Rozhdestvensky’s order did not stipulate the exact route, or possible stops along the way.
          Ferzen didn’t turn to Petersburg contrary to the order; he did not break the order.
          And not knowing the exact circumstances of the case and the motives of certain actions, to talk about madness, so you can go far.
          hi

          Well, yes, to turn in the direction opposite to Stok is not just an agreed route, but the consumption of coal going to a point a couple of hundred miles from the ordered point is a "possible stop." It's like in 41, you were sent to Dubosekovo, and you drove to the pub on Tverskaya and said that you ran out of gasoline, so you could not fulfill the order.
          And what circumstances are not clear to you? It was necessary to turn in one direction, he turned in the other: either a coward or a madman.
          1. Avior
            Avior 3 May 2020 06: 47 New
            -2
            The opposite side is in Peter or San Francisco.
            The example of Dubosekovo is ridiculous, the Emeralds were recognized to be saved and go out to their
            The route of exits and stops on the Way was not specified.
            1. Jura 27
              3 May 2020 06: 58 New
              +2
              Quote: Avior
              The opposite side is in Peter or San Francisco.
              The example of Dubosekovo is ridiculous, the Emeralds were recognized to be saved and go out to their
              The route of exits and stops on the Way was not specified.

              Nope. Vladimir, almost in the opposite direction from Stok, starting from the point appointed by Ferzen himself, 50 miles from the coast (on the map he arrived there at 12-00)
              Nobody ordered "Izumrud" to escape, there was a general order - to go to Stoke.
              1. Avior
                Avior 3 May 2020 07: 06 New
                -5
                Can you attach a map of the route from the order? No?
                In the text of the order were the exact points of the route? What, also not?
                The order forbade to hide from the superior forces of the enemy during the transition? What, and it is not forbidden?
                So what kind of violation of the order are you talking about?
                1. Ryaruav
                  Ryaruav 3 May 2020 09: 46 New
                  +3
                  an order was announced even before the NO23 battle on Vladik, the queen that he had not seen at the time of surrender, almost the entire combat-ready Japanese fleet was left behind
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 3 May 2020 10: 02 New
                    -7
                    The Japanese did not report to him that it was the entire idle fleet
                    The order was in Vladivostok, he went there, but didn’t stupidly cut through the shortest path
                2. Jura 27
                  3 May 2020 15: 53 New
                  +4
                  Quote: Avior
                  Can you attach a map of the route from the order? No?
                  In the text of the order were the exact points of the route? What, also not?
                  The order forbade to hide from the superior forces of the enemy during the transition? What, and it is not forbidden?
                  So what kind of violation of the order are you talking about?

                  You yourself are not funny about what you write? You seem to have served in the army? Those. they ordered you to take up defense on the western outskirts of the city, and you took up the east and in response to the commander’s perplexity, answer cheerfully: there’s no route, so I’m sitting in the east on the west road, hiding from the superior enemy forces. In a combat situation, for such an immediate execution.
              2. Boa kaa
                Boa kaa 3 May 2020 11: 50 New
                +2
                Quote: Jura 27
                Nobody ordered the Emerald to escape,

                Yeah, there was an order "GIVE UP". And the commander of the Emerald disobeyed him, because decided to leave captivity.
  4. alone
    alone 2 May 2020 16: 36 New
    +1
    It’s strange to discuss the actions of a naval officer who did everything possible to prevent the ship from falling into the hands of the enemy .. He acted alone, at his own risk and fear, breaking the order of a superior commander and ultimately saved the crew ... I personally think that he did the right thing ..
    1. lelik613
      lelik613 2 May 2020 17: 38 New
      0
      I support. And the situation should not be compared with Dubosekov, but with surrender near Uman.
      1. Normal ok
        Normal ok 2 May 2020 17: 57 New
        -2
        Judging the officers by the totality of knowledge accumulated after 100 years ... You can damn know where to go. Feersen, did not surrender the ship. and did not lower the flag, unlike Rozhdestvensky. and how it turned out next - God be his judge and not couch experts.
      2. Jura 27
        3 May 2020 05: 01 New
        +1
        Quote: lelik613
        I support. And the situation should not be compared with Dubosekov, but with surrender near Uman.

        The first time I hear that someone surrendered near Uman, and not just unsystematically surrendered (and they did it right, because it was pointless to fight without shells, ammunition and food).
        1. Boa kaa
          Boa kaa 3 May 2020 11: 57 New
          +1
          Quote: Jura 27
          he simply surrendered unsystematically (and they did the right thing, because it was pointless to fight without shells, ammunition and food).

          You are the prisoners of Sabibor - unarmed, starving, exhausted by overwork - tell me, wise guy, damn it ... am
          1. Jura 27
            3 May 2020 15: 56 New
            -1
            [/ quote] This is you [quote]

            Again, a hamlo with a completely broken memory came across.
            1. Boa kaa
              Boa kaa 3 May 2020 20: 15 New
              +1
              Quote: Jura 27
              Again, a hamlo with a completely broken memory came across.

              Sir, your proposal for "haphazard surrender" ... smells bad!
              Quote: Jura 27
              and done right
              ?
              1. Jura 27
                4 May 2020 06: 55 New
                0
                [/ quote] Sir, your proposal for "haphazard surrender

                You wrote nonsense about the non-existent surrender under Uman, I have denied this.
                Therefore, your fabrications of an uncapitulated
                ... smell bad! [quote]
    2. Sergey S.
      Sergey S. 2 May 2020 21: 03 New
      +5
      Quote: lonely
      It is strange to generally discuss the actions of a naval officer who did everything possible so that the ship did not fall intact into the hands of the enemy.

      The war ended in shame.
      Against his background, Ferzen is well done.
      In his situation, the reward is that he is alive, and not like Mikluha or Bukhvostov.
      But the fact that the ship was ditched is the result of panic.
      The enemy was not there ....

      And if it was another war, for example, the Russian-Turkish war, he would not have received a reward, but a promotion to sailors, like Lange, the commander of the frigate "Nazareth", just for the fact that, having got into the fog by the Turkish fleet, he still left the Turks , but in the report he portrayed himself and the crew as heroes ...

      Such is the story of the Russian fleet!
      1. mmaxx
        mmaxx 3 May 2020 11: 58 New
        +7
        For a breakthrough, award weapons for courage, and for ditching the cruiser - take away. Cannot be rewarded for losing a ship. That damn thing knows what. Leave for Vladivostok, destroy the cruiser and become a hero. So bad things were in the Russian Empire during that war that they made a feat out of shame.
  5. Antifreeze
    Antifreeze 2 May 2020 19: 19 New
    -2
    Nebogatov’s order was illegal, and Ferzen did the right thing to violate it, so there was a formal reason for the award. But why does this relate to courage and not to knowledge of the charter and determination not to obey an illegal order? Maximum draws on written encouragement

    Original! Indeed, there is something in THIS. True, after so many years ...
  6. kig
    kig 3 May 2020 02: 01 New
    +2
    Rustaveli once again remembered: everyone imagines himself a strategist, seeing the battle from the side.
    1. Jura 27
      3 May 2020 07: 01 New
      +3
      Quote: kig
      Rustaveli once again remembered: everyone imagines himself a strategist, seeing the battle from the side.

      There was no battle, either on May 15 or the 16th, just the people gave a pull in the opposite direction from the mythical enemy.
  7. Comrade
    Comrade 3 May 2020 04: 27 New
    +7
    Bravo, Jura, written in a slanderous and witty way, laughed heartily in places, but you still reacted a bit biased to Fersen.
    Wait, wait, Mr. Fersen, what does Olga have to do with it ?! It seems he chose between Vladivostok and Vladimir?

    So Fersen showed that he "at first he intended to go into Olga, but the senior officer expressed the opinion that this bay was probably mined to give shelter to our destroyers from the enemy. Having recognized this assumption as solid, he chose Vladimіr".

    in that war there were very few successes in the battle, but to reward for escaping from the battlefield when superiority in speed was used (and even without a single shot), somehow too much

    You take the actual side of the matter, as it really was, but if you look at the situation in the distorted form in which Ferzen presented it to the authorities, then everything falls into place.
    Here he is in the picture, and here are the hordes of Japanese cruisers, a no brainer that they will chase him.
    But there are two runners, armed with 8 '' guns ("Kasagi" and "Chitose"), which easily crossed the 22nd line during sea trials. By default, their cars are in perfect order and there is plenty of coal, so they can easily reach Vladivostok before the Izumrud. So Fersen had to look for compromise options, from Olga to St. Vladimir.
    It is difficult to establish whether this was a deliberate lie of the commander of the "Emerald" or a hallucination. The facts are that "Kasagi" was not there at all, and such a distance separated him from "Chitose" that Vasily Nikolayevich could not even see him.
    Conclusion - lied twice.
    Thus, it can be stated that Fersen simply provided the authorities with false information (by the way, it would be interesting to read not a testimony, but a report), on the basis of which he was presented for a high award.
    PS
    Another touch to the portrait.
    Fersen was not on friendly terms with the Japanese materiel even at the basic level, otherwise he would not have had the battleship Yashima, which had died a year ago, on the “scheme”. One could assume that he did not know about this, but after all, Fersen could not help but see that the Japanese had one of the battleships with three, unlike the two-pipe "Yashima", pipes.
    1. Jura 27
      3 May 2020 05: 13 New
      +1
      [/ quote] But there are two walkers armed with 8 '' guns [quote]

      He saw that they did not catch him and even quickly the smoke disappeared from the horizon, therefore their speed was canceled in fact. Therefore, Fersen wrote that they went straight to Stock.
      1. Jura 27
        3 May 2020 05: 17 New
        +2
        [/ quote] It is difficult to establish whether this was a deliberate lie of the commander of the "Emerald" or a hallucination. [quote]

        This was an excuse for his insane actions and moving away from Stock in the opposite direction.
      2. Avior
        Avior 3 May 2020 06: 50 New
        -3
        He saw that they did not catch him and even quickly the smoke disappeared from the horizon, therefore their speed was canceled in fact.

        He saw they just fell behind
        I did not know the reasons for this, the enemy forces, their capabilities and plans did not know either
        1. Jura 27
          3 May 2020 07: 04 New
          +3
          Quote: Avior
          He saw that they did not catch him and even quickly the smoke disappeared from the horizon, therefore their speed was canceled in fact.

          He saw they just fell behind
          I did not know the reasons for this, the enemy forces, their capabilities and plans did not know either

          And what could be the reasons if the enemy quickly fell behind? Well, yes, Yapi, they’re cunning, they know that Ferzen is the commander and he’ll come to hell, he knows where the cruiser will explode. Indeed, why does coal spend on some kind of pursuit
          1. Avior
            Avior 3 May 2020 08: 51 New
            -2
            . And what could be the reasons if the enemy quickly fell behind?

            Variety
            For example, they did not chase a single ship, but organized patrolling and interception on the way to Vladivostok.
            Or they knew that such an interception already exists and there is no sense in chasing a solitary, he will still fall on the way to Vladivostok.
          2. Boa kaa
            Boa kaa 3 May 2020 12: 43 New
            +1
            Quote: Jura 27
            Ferzen is a commander there and he will come to hell knows where and the cruiser will explode. Indeed, why does coal spend on some kind of pursuit

            I didn’t want to, but I have to intervene.
            1. Fresen disobeyed the order of the squadron commander. Acting at his own peril and risk, he decided not to lower the flag, save the ship and crew.
            2. To break away from the enemy you need maximum moves, and not the 9,0 knots you offer. Such moves are only used on cruises, and do not come off from a possible pursuit.
            3. 10 tons of coal is in all bunkers. In fact, there are crumbs at the bottom, an "uncollectable" stock. Therefore, to blame the commander for the fact that he has another 10 tons, but he ... - Not serious.
            4. Mr. Emerald did not have information about the enemy. It is logical to assume that he could be expected on the way to Vladik (Stok). After all, the databases began and the yapes blocked approaches to ports and bases. Therefore, he went to b. Olga
            5. He blew up the ship after landing aground, so as not to get the enemy. The reason for landing is a weak navigational training; perhaps tidal phenomena were not taken into account. And perhaps the steering or engine drivers did not work on time. And this happened.
            6. To evaluate "retroactively" the actions of the ancestors is an ungrateful and vicious practice of picking "facts" without taking into account the entire spectrum of reasons, trends, attitudes of that era.
            The czar-priest (ampirator) awarded the commander - so it was necessary. He did not cover himself and the crew with the shame of surrendering. Yes, it was not possible to bring the cruiser to Stock, but he did not give it to the enemy either. For which he received a nominal weapon.
            IMHO.
            1. Sergey S.
              Sergey S. 3 May 2020 13: 09 New
              +2
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              Fresen disobeyed the order of the squadron commander. Acting at his own peril and risk, he decided not to lower the flag, save the ship and crew.

              Formally, you are right.
              But ...
              The Japanese ships could not catch up with the Emerald ... So there was a chance to reach Vladivostok, ahead of the Japanese.
              There is no objective data on the amount of coal on board and on the voracity of the cruiser. Remember the fate of Novik ...
              Landing on stones already entails the punishment of the commander.

              And, most importantly, I do not understand why the ship blew up without a real threat of capture by the enemy?
              "Bogatyr" was saved in about the same position ... Although this is not a scientific field ...
              1. Boa kaa
                Boa kaa 3 May 2020 13: 23 New
                +1
                Quote: Sergey S.
                The Japanese ships could not catch up with the Emerald ...

                Sergey, hi
                Is not a fact. After breaking the steam line, the ship's speed dropped to 13,0 knots. And to raise it was no longer possible - the steam was poisoned ... And the yapes could go 18 knots. Therefore, if they continued the chase after 14:00, then in our history there would be Varyag No. 2.
                Quote: Sergey S.
                There is no objective data on the amount of coal on board and on the voracity of the cruiser.
                But still! Here is what colleague Andrei from Chelyabinsk writes:
                After the battle on May 14 and the breakthrough on May 15, the cruiser was left with coal not just small, but catastrophically small. In total, the cruiser had 6 boiler rooms and 16 boilers, while in the first and second stoker there were 1 boilers, and in the rest - three. So, almost all of the remaining coal reserves lay in the pit of the first stoker. There were almost no coal in the pits of the 2nd and 2rd stoker, and the 1th, 2th and 3th stoker had no coal at all. In order to use them, the sailors had to manually carry coal from a large pit at the first stoker. In words - it’s easy, but it’s almost 4/5 of the cruiser’s length! Moreover, for this it was necessary to raise it to the upper deck, transfer it, and then lower it into the necessary stoker.
                Would you fight in a tank that needs to pour fuel from a barrel on an armor into a dvigun?
                And in fact, the reserves of the first boiler house turned out to be not very large - despite the fact that the cruiser went only 1 knots the rest of the day on May 15 and 16, by the time coal arrived in St. Vladimir’s Bay, about 13 tons remained. Taking into account the testimony of Lieutenant Polushkin that the cruiser spent about 10 tons of coal per day of the economic course, it turns out that the Emerald left fuel for about 60, with a force of 4 hours of economic course. And this despite the fact that the whole tree on the cruiser, with the exception of 5 boats and masts with ropes, was sent to the furnaces and burned on the night of May 3-15 ... (Andrey from Chelyabinsk)
                1. Sergey S.
                  Sergey S. 3 May 2020 13: 32 New
                  0
                  I will not argue.
                  I note only that the grounds for believing that it is impossible to confirm by inspection are not very convincing ...
                  The magazines were probably written on the shore ...
                  And Novik's example is not accidental. An excellent team, an excellent commander, but with coal they missed ... They did not take into account the changes in parameters during operation.

                  Fersen can only justify a temporary weakness of spirit due to the experience of the last day. But this is for the doctors.
                  And in his right mind, such actions should have been avoided.
                2. mmaxx
                  mmaxx 4 May 2020 09: 50 New
                  +1
                  In our Owls. The army said this: you can’t dig while standing - dig while lying down. It will be necessary - it means that in our army they will pour a mug. Therefore, they lost that war. There were too many excuses for commanders for all occasions.
                  Here, after all, how: in wartime, the cosine value can reach four. Just think of a mug of diesel fuel to pump. If necessary - take and pump.
                  If they moved to Vladik, then if fuel ran out, then Vladik had it. And to climb into an unfamiliar bay at night is generally beyond. Okay now: all sorts of GPS, tracks, radars. And then the navigational equipment differed little from the sailing fleet. Yes, and there was at least some navigational situation in the bay then?
            2. Saxahorse
              Saxahorse 3 May 2020 20: 11 New
              +6
              Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
              The czar-priest (ampirator) awarded the commander - so it was necessary.

              The close-minded our Tsar Nikolashka and Rudnev, too, awarded for the shameful discharge of his cruiser. What he gave the most unpleasant example of the possibility of remuneration for evading his duty. I already reminded you that it was after this unparalleled rewarding for cowardice that the morale of the 1st TOE fell below the plinth.

              As a result, of the entire 1st Pacific Squadron, only Rurik died in battle. All the others successfully self-destructed or interned under various pretexts. The huge squadron, not inferior in strength to the entire Japanese fleet, disappeared without a trace and was harmless to the enemy.

              This is what the stupidity of our king, Nikolashka the Second, led to.
        2. Comrade
          Comrade 3 May 2020 17: 09 New
          0
          Quote: Avior
          He saw they just fell behind

          No they, he. There was only one cruiser, "Chitose".
          1. Avior
            Avior 3 May 2020 18: 12 New
            -1
            He saw that they did not catch him ...

            He saw they just fell behind

            As they wrote, so I answered.
            maybe the author "they" meant Japanese
    2. 27091965
      27091965 3 May 2020 06: 15 New
      0
      Quote: Comrade
      But there are two runners, armed with 8 '' guns ("Kasagi" and "Chitose"), which easily crossed the 22nd line during sea trials.


      This is a dubious statement, I do not think that the Japanese before the Tsushima battle loaded a full supply of coal onto these cruisers. The normal supply of coal, as indicated in some directories, was 350 tons.
      1. Comrade
        Comrade 3 May 2020 17: 19 New
        +1
        Quote: 27091965i
        I do not think that the Japanese before the Tsushima battle loaded a full supply of coal onto these cruisers.

        Exactly right there was excess coal reserves, as in other Japanese ships. Togo planned to begin the transition to the northern straits to intercept Rozhestvensky, hence the serious overload of coal, oil and water
        The report of captain T. Jackson says:
        «This was a dull day, it being foggy at sea. The Adzuma received 200 tons of coal, stowing a good deal on the upper deck. Several other ships also coaled, some for the second time in three days. At 5 pm the Mikasa went up harbor. She had a large amount of coal on the upper deck, and was very deep in the water, the heels all her torpedo net booms being submerged. All destroyers and torpedo boats have a deck cargo of coal.

        In the evening steam boats and launches were sent off from the shore to all ships and were hoisted in. No explanation was received, but it is supposed to be due to the possibility of the Russians attempting to reach Vladivostok by either the Tsugaru or La Perouse Straits, which will entail upon the Japanese fleet the necessity of operating at some distance from its present base
        . "

        You can translate something like this: “It was a dull day, fog was creeping over the sea. Adzuma took 200 tons of coal, which completely blocked the upper deck. Several other vessels also accepted coal, some for the second time in three days. At 17:00, the Mikasa entered the harbor. He had a large amount of coal on the upper deck and sat very deep in the water, so that the heels of the poles of the mine networks completely plunged into the water. All fighters and destroyers had a load of coal on the decks. In the evening, steam and motor boats were sent from the shore to all the ships and were lifted by them. No explanation was received, but this is believed to be due to a possible Russian attempt to reach Vladivostok by the Straits of Tsugaru or Laperuz, which would force the Japanese fleet to operate at some distance from its current base. ”

        There is reason to say (omitting technical details) that the total overload of the battleship "Mikasa" (construction and operational) was approaching three thousand tons.
        As for "Kasagi", "Top Secret History" has a cut down the midship section after getting a hole. And there you can see the serious overload of this cruiser that took place on the morning of May 14, 1905.
        1. 27091965
          27091965 3 May 2020 18: 00 New
          0
          Quote: Comrade
          As for "Kasagi"


          Doubt caused also speed. In my opinion, only two runs were made to achieve maximum speed. They lasted, each, less than an hour. Could these cruisers after so many years of operation not only gain the speed shown during the tests, but also maintain it?
          1. Comrade
            Comrade 3 May 2020 18: 32 New
            +1
            Quote: 27091965i
            Could these cruisers after so many years of operation not only gain the speed shown during the tests, but also maintain it?

            Certainly not could.
            But from Fersen's report it follows that he either did not understand this, or pretended not to. "Izumrud" did not go to Vladivostok, the main reason is the fear of the cruiser commander that Japanese cruisers, who arrived there before the Russian cruiser, would be waiting for him there.
            In fact, "Chitose", trying to catch up with "Emerald", was able to develop a maximum stroke of 16-17 knots. And Fersen could not help but see it.
            However, he had to justify himself in the eyes of his superiors, rather than a motive, why did he lie in his testimony?
            He could not, having destroyed the ship entrusted to him, write that a lone cruiser was chasing me, but we could not even identify him. he was so far from us, and his speed was four to five knots less than ours.
            So there was a tale about allegedly high-speed Japanese cruisers, supposedly guarding Ferzen near Vladivostok.
            1. Saxahorse
              Saxahorse 3 May 2020 20: 17 New
              +1
              Quote: Comrade
              "Izumrud" did not go to Vladivostok, the main reason is the fear of the cruiser commander that Japanese cruisers would be waiting for him there,

              Fersen, however, had to remember about the Vladivostok detachment of cruisers, Russia, Gromoboy and Bogatyr, more than serious opponents for Japanese dogs. The topic of the meeting with the Vladivostok cruisers was discussed more than once by squadron officers. Fersen could not know about it.
              1. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 3 May 2020 21: 22 New
                +3
                Quote: Saxahorse
                Russia, Stormbreaker and Bogatyr

                Only Russia".
                "Thunderbolt" was blown up on May 24, "Bogatyr" was under repair until the end of the RYAV.
                1. Saxahorse
                  Saxahorse 5 May 2020 20: 38 New
                  0
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  Only Russia".

                  And did they manage to report to Ferzen? Yes and Togo .. You do not confuse the beginning of the 20th century with the times of the Internet ..
                  1. Senior seaman
                    Senior seaman 5 May 2020 22: 41 New
                    +1
                    "Bogatyr" flew to the stones of Cape Brus a year before Tsushima. So rest assured, Togo and Fersen were aware of this. As for "Thunderbolt", then Fersen, indeed, may not have known. But Heihachiro Kichizaemovich and the Japanese intelligence service are difficult to blame for incompetence (unlike you :)). They at least guessed about the existence of the telegraph and ciphers.
                    1. Saxahorse
                      Saxahorse 6 May 2020 01: 54 New
                      0
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      "Bogatyr" flew to the stones of Cape Brus a year before Tsushima.

                      During this time, they managed to remove it from the stones and begin to repair it in the dock. In what condition it was on May 27, the Japanese could not reliably know. Moreover, the Japanese could not reliably know about the state of Thunderbolt successfully planted on stones by Jessen on May 24th.

                      Do not fantasize. By the beginning of Tsushima on the map of Togo, in Vladik, three large cruisers were still shining ..
                      1. Senior seaman
                        Senior seaman 6 May 2020 12: 06 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        the Japanese could not know

                        Well, you judging by the comments from which it all started and after a hundred years did not know :)))
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Don't fantasize

                        Apply your advice to yourself.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        By the beginning of Tsushima on the map of Togo, in Vladik, three large cruisers were still shining ..

                        On an interactive whiteboard? Oh well:)))
                      2. Saxahorse
                        Saxahorse 6 May 2020 22: 23 New
                        0
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        On an interactive whiteboard? Oh well:)))

                        And when did the Russians reliably learn about the death of Yasima, for example? Tell those in more detail to us, you are our specialist! laughing
                      3. Senior seaman
                        Senior seaman 7 May 2020 11: 24 New
                        +1
                        You really don’t understand the difference, or are you kidding?
                        The then Vladivostok was simply teeming with the Chinese, both by merchants and ordinary workers. Can you distinguish a Chinese from a Japanese? And then they didn’t know how to hurt. But with the Europeans in Sasebo, it’s somehow not very good ...
                        Sorry, the fact that Japanese intelligence in that war was completely superior to Russian is the basics!
                      4. Saxahorse
                        Saxahorse 7 May 2020 23: 46 New
                        0
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        The then Vladivostok was simply teeming with the Chinese

                        The then Port Arthur, too, was simply teeming with the Chinese. Which did not stop Togo from losing two EDBs on mines as a result of the operation, which has long been discussed in all taverns. It can be recalled that half a city climbed onto the shore to see how Togo would explode laughing

                        Intelligence feeds on rumors, moreover muddy and contradictory. Already, how many scouts Stalin had missed. The Chinese are a frivolous argument.
                      5. Senior seaman
                        Senior seaman 8 May 2020 09: 40 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        The then Port Arthur, too, was simply teeming with the Chinese. Which did not stop Togo from losing two EDBs on mines as a result of the operation, which has long been discussed in all taverns.

                        not a fig smashes you :)))
                        Well, please please me with a source in which the mine setting of "Cupid" was discussed for a long time BEFORE it took place.
                        You (as usual) are comparing incomparable things. Intelligence which was and possibly made mistakes, and intelligence, which did not haveas a phenomenon.
  • unknown
    unknown 3 May 2020 21: 33 New
    0
    It's funny. Construction overload "Mikasa" - about 900 tons. Consequently, the rest is operational. And what about the draft, the armor belt. Stability. Speed.
    1. Comrade
      Comrade 3 May 2020 22: 39 New
      0
      Quote: ignoto
      It's funny. Construction overload "Mikasa" - about 900 tons. Consequently, the rest is operational. And what about the draft, the armor belt.

      The construction overload was 784 tons, which means that the operational overload of the ship was 2 190 tons.
      Against the background of construction overload, which initially "plunged" the Mikasa main armor belt under the water by 31,36 cm, the main armored belt of the armadillo went under the water for another 87,64 cm. Thus, its upper edge turned out to be below 43 cm waterlines.
  • mmaxx
    mmaxx 3 May 2020 12: 09 New
    +3
    Yes, ushsh ... The level of the RIF commanders was "on top". The composition of the Japanese fleet is a mystery. The characteristics of the ships are all according to the tables. What are they? did not know how the driving characteristics change over time? They lived and served then. What were they even interested in? High arts? The problem of lowering speed and short cruising range is common to all. It is clear that all the best will be involved in the battle with the main forces, and reconnaissance, etc., will fall on old ships and auxiliary ones.
    Decide that the Japanese mined a bay north of Vladivostok? And think with your head? Why are they doing this ?? What is there to mine? There, the Russians do not need anything, and even more so for the Japanese. Just put mines like that? So, knowing our commanders, on the contrary, there was nothing to mine. Let them go, they will run aground and blow it all to hell. I'm already joking, if that. But Fersen did just that.
    1. unknown
      unknown 3 May 2020 21: 29 New
      +2
      About driving performance to the very point.
      For a long time, in one of the comments, I wrote that the assessment of the technical characteristics of the ships of the nuclear war is very reminiscent of the approach prevailing in Soviet times regarding the technical characteristics of weapons and military equipment of domestic and foreign, from WWII. Then, they liked to indicate the technical characteristics of the reference samples of Soviet technology, passing it off as data from serial samples. And the data of Western technology, primarily German, underestimated.
      Now, with respect to the RNE, a similar picture is observed, but exactly the opposite. The driving performance of Japanese ships, achieved in acceptance tests, is once issued for the data that was shown during the REV. But the running and combat qualities of Russian ships are underestimated.
      The introduction of water-tube boilers in the English fleet was also problematic. The British managed to reduce these problems to a minimum only on a series of battleships that followed the Formidable.
      Japanese armored cruisers are another story, my favorite. Ships with a displacement less than that of the battleships of the squadron, but having "armored", that is, not high-speed contours, relieved by the "pampered" KTU, but unnecessarily overloaded with armor.
      In real operation during the years of the RYA, they had a continuous stroke from 15 to 17 knots. Unsuccessful project, which is called almost the best, "reference" type of armored cruiser.
      1. mmaxx
        mmaxx 4 May 2020 06: 28 New
        +1
        So in the article about "Emerald" is described an attempt to chase Japanese cruisers during a breakthrough. They did not pass half the world without entering their home port. But more than 17 !!! nodes were not issued. Here Fersen left the main forces in the "Emerald" quite calmly. And then he had a quirk that he was about to be caught up and that was it.
  • Sasha_rulevoy
    Sasha_rulevoy 3 May 2020 07: 57 New
    +3
    At the beginning of the campaign, the squadron commander foolishly fired and drowned several fishing vessels in the English Channel. Rather than simply admitting a mistake, he brought himself by auto-suggestion to the extreme degree of paranoia and gradually brought the entire squadron to defeatism and alarmism. If the Japanese destroyers, cruisers and submarines allegedly guarded the 2 TOE at Skagen, in the English Channel, at Gibraltar, at Kamrani, Singapore, then what can we say about the direct approaches to Vladivostok.
  • VohaAhov
    VohaAhov 3 May 2020 10: 32 New
    +1
    Hello Yuri. On the next branch "Andrey from Chelyabinsk" I tried to understand this issue in general, and in the actions of the commander of "Izumrud" in particular. It is described in great detail and in a popular way. I recommend it for reading.
    1. Avior
      Avior 3 May 2020 11: 24 New
      0
      Sorry, but I didn’t find what branch.
      Tell me, please, if it does not bother you
    2. Jura 27
      3 May 2020 16: 08 New
      +1
      Quote: VohaAhov
      Hello Yuri. On the next branch "Andrey from Chelyabinsk" I tried to understand this issue in general, and in the actions of the commander of "Izumrud" in particular. It is described in great detail and in a popular way. I recommend it for reading.

      Have a nice one you too !
      Andrei, there is such crap, wrote about the "brave" Fersen, which I had to refute in a separate post.
      1. volodimer
        volodimer 3 May 2020 18: 49 New
        -2
        Unlike you, Andrey analyzed in great detail the actions of the commander of the "Izumrud", and you wrote the "crap" contradicting the documents. Unfortunately.
        1. Jura 27
          4 May 2020 06: 52 New
          +3
          Quote: volodimer
          Unlike you, Andrey analyzed in great detail the actions of the commander of the "Izumrud", and you wrote the "crap" contradicting the documents. Unfortunately.

          The most important, shameful moment for Fersen, Andrey deliberately missed in order to justify the insane commander of the Emerald, and you are not able to understand this. Unfortunately.
          The necessary quotes from the docks in the post are given, to which you, of course, did not pay the slightest attention and write nonsense about the alleged contradiction to the docks.
  • VohaAhov
    VohaAhov 3 May 2020 11: 30 New
    +1
    Quote: Avior
    Sorry, but I didn’t find what branch.
    Tell me, please, if it does not bother you

    Try following the link https://topwar.ru/170417-gibel-krejsera-izumrud.html
    1. Avior
      Avior 3 May 2020 11: 49 New
      0
      Yes, thanks, I already found, I remember this article, I just thought that there was another one on this topic

      hi
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Navigator_50
    Navigator_50 4 May 2020 06: 21 New
    +3
    But you are right, Yuri ..
    And not only the Emerald ingloriously ended his journey ..
    School for the education of commanders requires unquestioning execution of orders ..
    and if there are no orders - a stupor ..
    Rozhdestvensky could have gone to Vladivostok, only suddenly realized ... (the staff suggested) how he would look without a squadron ... on the Golden Horn raid.

    So is the Varyag (praised not by us, but by the Germans at first) .. while senior officer Ivanov-2 was preparing the cruiser for battle and restoring the combat effectiveness of the weapon .. the commander rushed in a boat to foreign stations with a request for evacuation. Then he arrived on the cruiser and announced .. If they had blown up at least, there would have been a copy from the Emerald, or rather a forerunner ..
    The Varyag thrown by the crew turned over, having lost stability at high tide in Chemulpo ..
    That's all..
    1. mmaxx
      mmaxx 4 May 2020 09: 25 New
      +3
      I read from one of the Germans. Perhaps Melletina. He wrote that the Bolsheviks outlived the main problem of the Russian imperial army - the low discipline of commanders. I think that this can be extended to the fleet.
      At that time, the Germans knew what we did not know.
    2. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 5 May 2020 20: 49 New
      0
      Quote: Shturman_50
      while senior officer Ivanov, the 2nd, prepared the cruiser for battle and restored the combat efficiency of the weapon ..

      The senior officer of the Varyag was called Stepanov, Veniamin Vasilievich. And the rest it is, it was he who insisted on a breakthrough in the morning, when the commander already hinted at the need for drowning. Be that day in the cabin Stepanov (instead of Rudnev), the Varangian would certainly have broken through.
      1. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter 5 May 2020 21: 12 New
        +2
        Quote: Saxahorse
        Be that day in the cabin Stepanov (instead of Rudnev), the Varangian would certainly have broken through.

        So you want to say that Rudnev is a coward? Or will you argue that the Varangian would have managed to break through with the Japanese superiority in artillery eightfold?
        1. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 5 May 2020 21: 21 New
          +1
          The navy knew very well that Rudnev was a coward, at 7 knots they did not go into breakouts. As a captain, he was a mediocre captain, and in the first turn he stuck into the island. He could not even serve as a "hero" for three years, it is difficult to command when his officers look with contempt.

          And who wanted to - they broke through. Askold calmly broke past Asama, Yakumo and eight other Japanese cruisers. Oleg and Aurora fought with 16 Japanese cruisers before dark, and nothing, with holes in the sides but got to Manila. Rudnev is the most unfortunate example of an extremely untimely reward for poor work.
          1. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter 5 May 2020 22: 30 New
            +1
            Quote: Saxahorse
            The Navy knew perfectly well that Rudnev was a coward

            Curious ... how can a coward get out of the raid and accept a previously losing battle? I hope you will not argue that Rudnev was hiding in the engine room under the armored deck during the battle?
            He was wounded along with other sailors.
            There are, of course, ambiguous moments on his part about exaggerating the damage to the Japanese squadron, about the Takachiho sunk due to damage, about the heavy damage to the Asama, about the destroyed destroyer, about 1105 shells fired at the enemy, showing an unprecedented rate of fire .... Rudnev spoiled his obituary.
            "Drowned" "Tokachiho" for another 15 years walked the seas and oceans)))
            For Varyag, the battle did not immediately set, the team of rangefinders was demolished by one of the first shells, hence the inaccuracy of shooting.
            And if to be completely fair, it must be said that the Russo-Japanese war was completely mediocre on the part of the Republic of Ingushetia.
            There are two bright spots in this war: the defense of Port Arthur and the battle of the Varangian.
            And it is pointless to argue with this, since even the Japanese had taught the Varangian exploit to their young sailors, and Rudnev was awarded his order for heroism.
            1. Saxahorse
              Saxahorse 6 May 2020 01: 49 New
              -1
              Quote: Stroporez
              I hope you will not argue that Rudnev was hiding in the engine room under the armored deck during the battle?

              Your tales are good for an exalted newspaper audience, a hundred years ago .. At what speed he went on the attack - it is known from official reports. Crawling to the attack do not go! There’s nothing to even discuss here .. The sailors just knew everything from the very beginning.

              Quote: Stroporez
              And it is pointless to argue with this, since even the Japanese had taught the Varangian exploit to their young sailors, and Rudnev was awarded his order for heroism.

              I read the reports of the Japanese about this fight, my ears are wrapped in a tube .. They did not have the slightest doubt about the cowardice of the Russians. Moreover, they underestimated her! Otherwise, they would have simply captured the Varyag thrown by Rudnev right on the roadstead, he was drowned there for almost five hours with open Kingston and abandoned by the team.

              And the Japanese had to establish a special order for Nikolashka. Here is who has done incredibly much to win this initially hopeless empire of Japan!
              1. Navigator_50
                Navigator_50 6 May 2020 05: 51 New
                0
                on the Japanese, these victories over white people were akin to "creating a miracle"
              2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                Andrei from Chelyabinsk 7 May 2020 11: 43 New
                +2
                Quote: Saxahorse
                At what speed he went on the attack is known from official reports. Crawling to the attack do not go! There’s nothing to discuss here ..

                Varyag’s speed allowed him to keep the bulk of the Japanese cruisers behind the island of Yodolmi, why in the first phase of the battle he was reduced, in fact, to the Asam / Varyag fight. Moreover - the delay on the fairway led to the fact that the Japanese in a hurry to block the proposed route of Russian breakthrough, opened the Varyagu passage to one of the straits. So there’s something to discuss here, you just don’t want to :)
                Quote: Saxahorse
                I read the reports of the Japanese about this fight, my ears are wrapped in a tube .. They did not have the slightest doubt about the cowardice of the Russians.

                Lying without blushing
                1. Saxahorse
                  Saxahorse 7 May 2020 23: 53 New
                  0
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Varyag’s speed allowed him to keep the bulk of the Japanese cruisers behind the island of Yodolmi, why in the first phase of the battle he was reduced, in fact, to the Asam / Varyag fight.

                  Generally nonsense. And you are not the only one I pointed out. It’s impossible to break through at 7 nodes, and all these your inventions of confused excuses in the series about the Varyag looked extremely unconvincing.

                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Lying without blushing

                  Everywhere in the reports in black and white - "the enemy fled" and even sometimes "fled cowardly." Of course, you saw this as a sign of Japanese respect for Rudnev ..
          2. Navigator_50
            Navigator_50 6 May 2020 05: 48 New
            +1
            The fact is that it was necessary to go out .. the ultimatum was unequivocal - the hospitals said .. go out. The Japanese promised to drown him in the port, if it doesn’t work out .. I had to ...
      2. Navigator_50
        Navigator_50 6 May 2020 04: 39 New
        0
        You are right ... I was wrong. The memory is full of information. I did not check with the sources ..
        From SW.
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion 6 May 2020 11: 33 New
    0
    Why did you dig in, St. Nicholas the Blessed then completely kissed. Well, he blew the war, the fleet ditched, with whom does not happen.
  • certero
    certero 6 May 2020 16: 13 New
    +1
    There the whole war at sea is a mixture of courage, madness, stupidity and incredible Japanese luck