Military Review

Mongols in Russia. First strike

240

Batu invasion of Russia, miniature from the Life of Euphrosyne of Suzdal, XVII century


Having tested the strength of the Russian princes in the battle of Kalka, the Mongols took up more pressing matters.

1224-1236 Calm before the storm


The main direction in which the main forces were thrown was the Tangut kingdom of Xi Xia. The fighting here was already in the 1224 year, even before the return of Genghis Khan from the campaign to Khorezm, but the main campaign began in the 1226 year and was the last for Genghis Khan. By the end of that year, the Tangut state was almost defeated, only the capital was held, which was captured in August 1227 of the year, probably already after the death of Genghis. The death of the conqueror led to a decrease in the activity of the Mongols on all fronts: they were busy with the election of the new Great Khan, and despite the fact that Genghis Khan had appointed the third son of Ugadei as his successor, his election was not a formality at all.

Mongols in Russia. First strike

Only in the 1229 year was Ogedei proclaimed the Great Khan (until then, the empire was ruled by the youngest son of Genghis Tolui).


Ugadei's enthronement, miniature from the Codex of Rashid ad-Din, 14th century


Silver coin with the image of Khan Ogedei, Mongolia

With his election, the neighbors immediately felt the intensification of the Mongol onslaught. Three tumens were sent to the Caucasus to fight against Jalal ad-Din. Subedei went to avenge the Bulgars for his defeat. But Batu Khan, who, according to Genghis Khan’s will, was to inherit power in the Juchi ulus, took part in the war with the Jin state, which ended only in the 1234 year. According to its results, he received the administration of Pinyangfu Province.

Thus, the situation in these years was generally favorable for the Russian principalities: the Mongols seemed to have forgotten about them, giving time to prepare to repel the invasion. And the Bulgars, whose state still blocked the path to Russia for the Mongols, desperately resisted, held on until the 1236 of the year.

But the situation in the Russian principalities over the years did not improve, but worsened. And if for the battle on Kalka it was still possible to combine the forces of several large principalities, then in 1238, even in the face of an open and terrible threat, the Russian princes indifferently looked at the death of their neighbors. And the time allotted to Russia to prepare for a new meeting with the Mongols expired.

On the eve of the invasion


In the spring of 1235, a great kurultai was assembled in Talan-dub, on which, among others, a decision was made to march to the West against the “Aracuts and Circassians” (Russians and inhabitants of the North Caucasus) - “where do the hooves of the Mongol horses go.”

These lands, as Genghis Khan commanded, were to be part of the Juchi ulus, whose heir was finally approved by Batu Khan.


Batu Khan in the medieval Chinese drawing of the XIV century

According to Genghis Khan’s “testament”, four thousand indigenous Mongols, who were to form the backbone of the army, were transferred to the Jochi ulus. Subsequently, many of them will become the founders of the new aristocratic clans. The main part of the invasion army consisted of warriors of already conquered peoples, who were supposed to send 10% of combat-ready men to it (but there were also many volunteers).

Dramatis personae


Batu Khan at that time was about 28 years old (born in 1209 year), he was one of the 40 sons of Jochi, and from his second wife, and not the eldest. But his mother, Uki-Khatun, was the niece of Genghis's beloved wife, Borte. Perhaps this circumstance became decisive in the decision of Genghis Khan to appoint him as heir to Jochi.


Batu Khan, medieval Persian miniature

The actual commander of his army was the experienced Subudey: “a leopard with a chopped paw,” as the Mongols called him. And here the Russian principalities were clearly unlucky. Subudei is perhaps the best commander of Mongolia, one of the closest associates of Genghis Khan, and his methods of warfare have always been extremely cruel. The killing by the Russian princes of the Mongolian ambassadors before the battle on Kalka was also not forgotten by them, and did not add sympathy to the Russian princes and their subjects.


Monument to Subedai in Tuva, unveiled on 1 September 2017

It should be said that, in the end, the number of Mongols in the army of Batu Khan turned out to be significantly more than four thousand, since other noble Genghisides went on a campaign with him. Ogedei sent his sons Guyuk and Kadan to gain combat experience.


Ogedei Khan sits with his two sons, Guyuk and Kadan. Thumbnail from a Persian source "History Mongols ", XV century

Also, the son of Chagatai Baydar and his grandson Buri, the sons of Toluya Munke and Bujek, and even the last son of Genghis Kulhan, born not of Borte, but the mercenary Hulan, joined Batu.


Chagatai, the second son of Genghis and Borte, the keeper of Yasa. Modern Monument, Mongolia


Toluy and his elder wife Sorkhokhtani, mother of the Khans Munke, Khubilai, Ilkhan Khulagu, Persian miniature

Despite the strict order of the parents, other Genghisides considered directly subordinate to Batu Khan below their dignity, and often acted independently of it. That is, they could sooner be called Baty’s allies than his subordinates.

As a result, Genghisides quarreled among themselves, which had far-reaching consequences. “The Secret Legend of the Mongols” (“Yuan Chao Bi Shi”) reports on the complaint that Batu Khan sent to the Great Khan Ugedei.

At the feast he had arranged before returning from the campaign, he, as the eldest among the Genghisides present, “drank the first cup of the feast”. Guyuk and the Storms, who left the feast very much, didn’t like it, offending the owner before it:
“And away they left an honest feast, and then Storm said, leaving:
"Desired to be with us
Bearded old women.
They would poke their heels,
And then I’ll trample my feet! ”
"To beat, or something, a good old woman, whose quivers hung on their belts!" - Guyug haughtily echoed him.
"And hang up wooden tails!" - added Argasun, the son of Elzhigday.
Then we said: “If we came to fight foreign aliens, shouldn’t we strengthen the accord among ourselves amicably ?!”
But no, Guyug and Storms did not heed the mind and the honest feast left, scolding. Reveal, Khan, now to us your will! "
After hearing the envoy Bata, Ugadei Khan became furious. ”


Guyuk will not forget this letter of Batu Khan, and will not forgive him the wrath of his father. But more on that later.

Beginning of the campaign


In the 1236 year, the Volga Bulgaria was finally conquered, and in the autumn of the 1237 year the Mongol army first entered the borders of the Russian land.


“Scolding of the pious with the unholy Baty”, medieval Russian miniature

Having proclaimed his goal “a trip to the last sea”, “where the hooves of the Mongol horses will reach,” Batu Khan moved his troops not to the west, but to the north and north-east of the ancient Russian state.

The defeat of the principalities of Southern and Western Russia can easily be explained by the further campaign of the Mongols in Europe. In addition, the squads of precisely these Russian lands fought in 1223 with the Tumens of Subedai and Jebe at the Kalki River, and their princes were directly responsible for the murder of the ambassadors. But why did the Mongols "make a detour" by entering the lands of the northeastern principalities? And was it necessary to do this?

Recall that the forests of central Russia for the Mongols and the steppes of other tribes involved in their campaign were an unfamiliar and alien environment. And the Genghisides did not want the grand princely thrones of Moscow, Ryazan or Vladimir, the Horde khans did not send their children or grandchildren to rule in Kiev, Tver and Novgorod. The next time the Mongols would come to Russia only in the 1252 year (Nevryuev’s army to the northeast, the Kuremsa army, and then Burundai to the west), and only because the adopted son of Batu Khan, Alexander Yaroslavich, informed him about the anti-Mongol the intentions of brother Andrew and Daniel Galitsky. In the future, the Horde khans will be literally drawn into Russian affairs by the warring princes, who will demand from them to be arbiters in their disputes, to solicit (and even buy) punitive armies of all kinds of princes. But until that time, the Russian principalities did not pay tribute to the Mongols, confining themselves to one-time gifts when visiting the Horde, and therefore some researchers say that Russia was re-conquered in 1252-1257, or even consider this conquest to be the first (considering the previous military campaign as raid).

Batu Khan, indeed, very soon became not up to Russia: in the 1246 year, his enemy Guyuk was elected the Great Khan, who in the 1248 year even went on a campaign against the cousin's ulus.


Guyuk Khan on holiday. Miniature from the Tarih-e-Jehangush Juvaini

Batu was saved only by the sudden death of Guyuk. Until that time, Batu Khan was extremely merciful to the Russian princes, treated them more likely as allies in a possible war, and did not demand tribute. The exception was the execution of the Chernigov prince Mikhail, who, the only one of the Russian princes, refused to go through the traditional rites of purification and thereby offended the khan. At the 1547 Council of the year, Michael was canonized as a martyr for the faith.


Veil "Holy Right Prince Mikhail of Chernigov", church sewing, 1660 years

The situation changed only after the election of the Great Khan Munke, who, on the contrary, was a friend of Batu, and therefore historians who consider the "yoke" a forced union of Russia and the Horde justify the actions of Alexander Yaroslavich, saying that Andrei and Daniil Galitsky were late with their speech.

Han Munke

Batu Khan was no longer afraid of a blow from the Karakorum, and therefore a new invasion of the Mongols could become for Russia, truly, catastrophic. Having “headed” it, Alexander saved the Russian lands from even more terrible defeat and ruin.

The first Horde khan to completely subjugate Russia is Berke, who was the fifth ruler of the Jochi ulus and was in power from 1257 to 1266. It was under him that the Basques came to Russia, and it was his rule that marked the beginning of the notorious “Tatar-Mongol yoke”.


So viewers saw Khan Berke in the TV series "Golden Horde"

But back to 1237 year.

Usually they say that Batu Khan did not dare to go to the West, having on the right flank the unshattered and hostile principalities of the Northeast. However, the northeastern and southern Russian principalities were ruled by different branches of the Monomashich, who were at war with each other. This was perfectly known to all neighbors, and the Mongols could not know about it. Both the Volga Bulgars conquered earlier and the merchants who visited Russia could tell them about the situation in the Russian principalities. Subsequent events showed that, striking the northeastern lands, the Mongols were completely not afraid of the Kiev, Pereyaslav and Galich squads.

As for the Western campaign, it is clear that it is more profitable to have neutral, if not friendly, then neutral states, and, given the complex relations of the Russian Monomashites, the Mongols could hope, at least, for the neutrality of Vladimir and Ryazan. If, however, they really wanted to defeat the potential allies of the South Russian princes before, then it must be recognized that this goal was in 1237-1238. has not been reached. Yes, the blow was very strong, the losses of the Russians were great, but their armies did not cease to exist, others took the place of the dead princes, from the same dynasty, rich and strong Novgorod remained unharmed. And the losses in manpower were not too large, since the Mongols did not yet know how to catch people who took refuge in the forests. They will learn only in the 1293 year, when the soldiers of the third son of Alexander Nevsky, Andrei, will actively help them in this (this is why the army brought by him to Dudenev was so remembered by the Russians, and the children were scared of “Duduk” in Russian villages in the 20th century).

In 1239, the new Grand Duke Vladimir of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich had a large and quite combat-ready army, with whom he made a successful campaign against the Lithuanians, and then captured the city of Kamenetz of the Chernigov Principality. Theoretically, it could have become even worse, because now the Russians had a reason to strike from the rear in order to take revenge. But, as we see and know, the hatred between the princes was stronger than the hatred of the Mongols.

Mongols at the borders of the Ryazan land


Opposing information about the Mongol attack on Ryazan lands has been preserved.

On the one hand, it tells about the desperate resistance of proud Ryazan and the unshakable position of its prince, Yuri Ingvarevich. Many from school years remember his answer to Batu: "When we are gone, then take everything."

On the other hand, it is reported that the Mongols, at first, were ready to be satisfied with the traditional tribute in the form of “tithes in everything: in people, in princes, in horses, in the tenth.” And in the "Tale of the Ruin of Ryazan Batu", for example, it is said that the council of the Ryazan, Murom and Pronsky princes decided to enter into negotiations with the Mongols.


"The Tale of the Ruin of Ryazan Batu"

Yuri Ingvarevich, indeed, sent his son Fedor with rich gifts to Batu Khan. Justifying this act, historians later said that in this way the Ryazan prince tried to buy time, because at the same time he asked for help from Vladimir and Chernigov. But at the same time, he missed the Mongolian ambassadors to the Grand Duke of Vladimir Yuri Vsevolodovich, and perfectly understood that he could conclude an agreement behind his back. And Ryazan did not receive any help from anyone. And, perhaps, only the incident at the khan's feast that ended in the death of his son prevented Yuri Ryazansky from concluding an agreement. After all, the Russian annals claim that at first Batu Khan received the young prince very graciously and even promised him not to go to Ryazan lands. This was possible only in one case: Ryazan at least has not yet refused to pay the required tribute.

The mysterious death of the Ryazan embassy in the headquarters of Batu Khan


But then suddenly there is the assassination of Fyodor Yuryevich and the "eminent people" accompanying him at Batyi headquarters. But the Mongols respected the ambassadors, and the reason for their killing should have been very serious.

The strange, simply monstrous demand of the "wives and daughters" of the Ryazan ambassadors, nevertheless, seems to be a literary fiction that hides the true meaning of this incident. After all, the Horde khans never made such demands on the Russian princes completely submissive to them.

Even if we assume that one of the hungry Mongols (the same Guyuk or Storms), who wanted to end the negotiations and start the war, suddenly shouted such words at the feast, deliberately provoking ambassadors, the refusal of the guests could be a reason for breaking up relations, but not reprisals them.

Perhaps, in this case, there was a tragic misunderstanding of the traditions and customs of the first meeting of representatives of different nations. Something in the behavior of Fyodor Yuryevich and his people could seem to the Mongols defiant and inappropriate, and provoke a conflict.

The easiest way to imagine their refusal to go through the ritual of purification by fire is a must when visiting the yurt of the khan. Or, a refusal to bow to the image of Genghis Khan (this plan is reported, for example, by Plano Carpini). For Christians, such idolatry was unacceptable, for the Mongols it would be a terrible insult. That is, Fedor Yurievich could have anticipated the fate of Mikhail Chernigov.

There were other bans that the Russians simply could not know about. Genghis Khan’s “Jasa” forbade, for example, stepping her foot on the ashes of a bonfire, because the soul of a deceased family member or clan leaves traces on it. It was impossible to pour wine or milk on the ground - it was considered as a desire to harm the dwelling or livestock of the owners with the help of magic. It was forbidden to step on the threshold of the yurt and enter the yurt with weapons, or with rolled up sleeves, it was impossible to urinate, before entering the yurt, sitting on the north side of the yurt and changing the place indicated by the owner. And any treat served to the guest must be accepted with both hands.

Recall that this was the first meeting of Russians and Mongols at such a level, and there were no one to tell Ryazan ambassadors about the intricacies of Mongolian etiquette.

The fall of Ryazan


Subsequent events Russian chronicles, apparently, are transmitted, right. Ryazan ambassadors died in the Batu Khan headquarters. The wife of the young prince Fyodor Eupraxia, in a state of passion, could very well have thrown herself from the roof with her young son in her arms. The Mongols went to Ryazan. Eupatiy Kolovrat, who came from Chernigov “with a small squad”, could attack the rearguard units of the Mongols between Kolomna (the last city of the Ryazan principality) and Moscow (the first city of the land of Suzdal).

In The Legend of Kolovrat, perhaps the most shameful historical film in the history of Russian and Soviet cinema, Fedor Yurievich bravely fights with the Mongols in front of the transvestite-looking Batu Khan, and his retinue, led by the boyar Yevpata, boldly runs away , leaving the protected person to the mercy of fate. And then Kolovrat, apparently realizing that for this Prince Yuri Ingvarevich, at best, hangs him on the nearest aspen, hangs around the forests for several days, waiting for the fall of his city. But let's not talk about sad things, because we know that everything was completely wrong.


Prince Fedor Yuryevich Ryazansky and Eupraxia before the Mother of God


Evpatiy Kolovrat, a monument in Ryazan


“Ruin ​​of the Ryazan Land”, A miniature from the front annalistic vault of the 16th century. Russian National Library

Having defeated the Ryazan troops that came out against them in a border battle (three princes died in it - Murom David Ingvarevich, Kolomna Gleb Ingvarevich and Pronsky Vsevolod Ingvarevich), the Mongols captured Pronsk, Belgorod-Ryazansky, Dedoslavl, Izheslavets, and then, after Pyatyandalov Ovyazladov, five-yards . Together with the townspeople, the family of the Grand Duke perished.


Deshalyt E.I. The heroic defense of Old Ryazan from the Mongol-Tatar troops in 1237 (diorama). Ryazan Kremlin

Kolomna will soon fall (the son of Genghis Kulhan will die here), Moscow, Vladimir, Suzdal, Pereyaslavl-Zalessky, Torzhok ...

In total, during this campaign, 14 Russian cities will be taken and destroyed.


"The capture and ruin of the Mongol-Tatars of Moscow in 1238." Thumbnail from the front annalistic vault, XVI century. Russian National Library


"The capture of Suzdal by Batu." Thumbnail from the front annalistic vault, XVI century. Russian National Library

We will not retell the history of Batu Khan’s campaigns on Russian lands, it is well known, we will try to consider two strange episodes of this invasion. The first is the defeat of the Russian squads of the Grand Duke of Vladimir on the River City. The second is an incredible seven-week defense of the small town of Kozelsk.

And let's talk about this in the next article.
Author:
Articles from this series:
Ryzhov V.A. Empire of Genghis Khan and Khorezm. The beginning of the confrontation
Ryzhov V.A. Empire of Genghis Khan and Khorezm. Invasion
Ryzhov V.A. Empire of Genghis Khan and Khorezm. Last Hero
Ryzhov V.A. Mongols in Russia. Forced Union
Ryzhov V.A. Mongols in Russia. First meeting
240 comments
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  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 November 2019 05: 53 New
    +4
    Thank! Thank! Thank! We are waiting for comments, with respect Vlad !!!
    1. Civil
      Civil 15 November 2019 08: 29 New
      +2
      All the same, now Russia is much larger and it includes many subjects, I would like the author to cover the fight against the Mongols in the Urals and the Volga region.
  2. Korsar4
    Korsar4 15 November 2019 06: 23 New
    +5
    Thank. And why do you think that Kolovrat fought between Kolomna and Moscow? Any instructions other than the Kamenka River?
    1. VLR
      15 November 2019 08: 35 New
      +4
      There is simply an indication that he was buried on 11 on January 1238 of the year. 1 January, the Mongols approached Kolomna. Moscow was taken on January 20.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 15 November 2019 08: 48 New
        +1
        I thought that closer to Suzdal all this could happen. Moreover, the most famous Kamenka is there.
      2. tlauicol
        tlauicol 15 November 2019 09: 17 New
        +2
        Was he at all, Kolovrat? It appears very late in the literature
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 15 November 2019 09: 54 New
          +5
          He was a boyar of Ryazan.

          But with the fact that the events are legendary, you can not argue.

          For example, I don’t really imagine that he would be buried in Ryazan Cathedral. After all, everything was destroyed.
          1. VLR
            15 November 2019 10: 08 New
            +9
            Something like that was entirely possible. Exaggerated, of course, then, brought to epic heights. But it is easy to imagine the condition of a man who returned home, but is not at home, there is no family, nothing, but there is some, albeit small, number of warriors waiting for orders. Which probably also had families in Ryazan.
            1. romb
              romb 15 November 2019 10: 40 New
              -13
              Kolovrat is nothing more than a legend. The usual fiction.
              Not a single "heroic resistance" exists, not a single "international" (eastern) source mentions it.
              1. SokolfromRussia
                SokolfromRussia 15 November 2019 12: 36 New
                +10
                Swedish sources do not mention the Battle of Neva either. Was she not there either?
                1. romb
                  romb 15 November 2019 15: 00 New
                  -4
                  Have you decided to compare a local skirmish of a hundred or two people with such a large-scale action as a battle with a army of thousands of nomads?
              2. vladcub
                vladcub 15 November 2019 19: 10 New
                +1
                Now, if the Kolovrat’s passport had been preserved, but again they learned how to forge documents even figs knows when
              3. Slavs
                Slavs 16 November 2019 00: 10 New
                +3
                So America won WWII, they mention it directly in their sources ... But my grandfather was not, he is not in any Western archive ..
                1. Vol4ara
                  Vol4ara 17 November 2019 15: 42 New
                  0
                  Quote: Slavs
                  So America won WWII, they mention it directly in their sources ... But my grandfather was not, he is not in any Western archive ..

                  And that America lost her?
                  1. Slavs
                    Slavs 17 November 2019 16: 36 New
                    +3
                    Not. won. Herself. Thank you for freeing the whole of Europe and us at the same time from the occupation .. Is that better? Or give snickers? )))
                    1. Vol4ara
                      Vol4ara 18 November 2019 10: 45 New
                      0
                      Quote: Slavs
                      Not. won. Herself. Thank you for freeing the whole of Europe and us at the same time from the occupation .. Is that better? Or give snickers? )))

                      No, she was at the same time with Germany and Japan, and the French bombed Pearl Harbor. Did you go to school? Or do you have an alternative story, maybe you dug the black sea ahead of the Ukrainians? Indeed, sometimes it is better to be silent ...
                      1. Slavs
                        Slavs 18 November 2019 15: 27 New
                        -1
                        To comment:
                        Kolovrat is nothing more than a legend. The usual fiction.
                        Not a single "heroic resistance" exists, not a single "international" (eastern) source mentions it.

                        I replied sarcastically:
                        Quote: Slavs
                        So America won WWII, they mention it directly in their sources ... But my grandfather was not, he is not in any Western archive ..

                        You decided to stand up for America, I also answered you with sarcasm.
                    2. Pilat2009
                      Pilat2009 22 November 2019 17: 27 New
                      0
                      Quote: Slavs
                      No. won. Herself

                      It can be interpreted as you like. As well as the war of 1812, where the coalition defeated Napoleon
                      1. Slavs
                        Slavs 23 November 2019 12: 18 New
                        0
                        Coalition won the war of 1812 of the year ?? Who with whom ???
                2. Suhow
                  Suhow 24 November 2019 16: 39 New
                  +1
                  And mine in Poland on excursions probably stayed.
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 November 2019 19: 22 New
            +3
            Quote: Korsar4
            He was a boyar of Ryazan.

            But with the fact that the events are legendary, you can not argue.

            For example, I don’t really imagine that he would be buried in Ryazan Cathedral. After all, everything was destroyed.

            More than ruined! Ryazan after the ruin of the Tatars, was moved 12 kilometers upstream. So the issue is debatable, we do not know the details corny.
            Regards, Vlad!
    2. SokolfromRussia
      SokolfromRussia 15 November 2019 13: 02 New
      +7
      In the "Tale of the Ruin of Ryazan Batu" there is such an excerpt: "And they rushed after the godless king, and barely managed to catch him in Suzdal." Suzdal land, that is, the Vladimir-Suzdal principality, began beyond Kolomna. Perhaps, after the battle at Kolomna, the Horde took a rest and then Kolovrat caught them.
    3. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 15 November 2019 14: 35 New
      +1
      Quote: Korsar4
      Any instructions other than the Kamenka River?

      There is an indication "in Suzdal." Kolomna was then the Ryazan volost, and Moscow the Suzdal volost.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 15 November 2019 14: 43 New
        +2
        Even Vronsky in the "Evil City":

        "But Batu himself is rampaging
        On the Suzdal land. "
  3. The comment was deleted.
  4. Konstantin Shevchenko
    Konstantin Shevchenko 15 November 2019 06: 38 New
    +6
    In miniature war shaved against the bearded. laughing
  5. tlauicol
    tlauicol 15 November 2019 07: 30 New
    +1
    Jochi got married to his cousin, is it? Could there be no Genghis blood in Batu?
    1. VLR
      15 November 2019 08: 43 New
      +6
      Yes, perhaps the Horde khans were, after all, not Genghisides, but Jochids.
      But, for sure, this cannot be argued. As the Solomon parables say, “it is impossible to detect three things - the trace of a fish in a river, the trace of a snake on a stone and the trace of a man in a woman” (now it is possible, of course).
      There is another version of this statement, more romantic:
      "The path of an eagle in heaven, the path of a snake on a rock, the path of a ship among the sea and the path of a man to a girl"
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 15 November 2019 08: 56 New
        +5
        Wow interpretation.
      2. romb
        romb 15 November 2019 10: 57 New
        -4
        And the Juchids, in general, were aware that they were not considered Genghisids?
        Jochids are almost a synonym - Genghiside. Because they were actually the last of the legacy of Genghis Khan, who could rule the states and peoples for the longest time.
    2. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 15 November 2019 10: 25 New
      +3
      In principle, there could not be Genghis blood, since Jochi is a Merkit apprx. Borte gave birth to him while she was in captivity.
      1. tlauicol
        tlauicol 15 November 2019 10: 52 New
        +2
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        In principle, there could not be Genghis blood, since Jochi is a Merkit apprx. Borte gave birth to him while she was in captivity.

        could take a paternal cousin Jochi
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 15 November 2019 11: 11 New
          +1
          Purely theoretically - it is possible, but in fact - no.
          1. romb
            romb 15 November 2019 11: 31 New
            +2
            In the sense: in fact - no? You are so confidently declaring that I was almost sure: do you really have DNA analyzes of Genghis Khan and Jochi himself? wink
            1. romb
              romb 15 November 2019 11: 38 New
              -8
              For the past, stop acting like an offended girl.
              Explain your disagreement.
              And then, from your minuses and rushing inferiority complex laughing
            2. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 15 November 2019 14: 05 New
              +2
              Sorry, but Batu’s parents are well known. In addition, it is known, to put it mildly, a biased attitude of the Mongol elite to Jochi himself. But Temuchin himself loved him very much, so much so that they could not announce the death of his son for a long time, they were afraid how Genghis Khan might react.
              So why on earth would Genghis marry Jochi to one of his daughters or granddaughters? To confirm in the eyes of others an illegal origin? And without his blessing, such a thing would not have happened.
              1. romb
                romb 15 November 2019 15: 13 New
                -3
                Just to Batu there was no such claim. But there was rather a personal butchert of Chagatai to Jochi, in the context of palace games around the possible inheritance of his father. And his claims can be understood. After all, if Jochi suddenly ceased to be Genghisid, then he would automatically drop out of the nomadic affair. But Chagatay received all the rights on the basis of the birthright. That's about it, even the chapters themselves. the khan ordered to stop all these rumors around Jochi’s non-relationship, recognizing that his wife Borte was already pregnant when she was captured by Merkits.
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 15 November 2019 14: 42 New
        0
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        Jochi - Merkitsky ok

        In a previous article, we discussed this.
        I quote my post on this topic:
        It is known that his mother Borte was captured by the Merkits. It is known that she gave birth to her first child on the road from captivity. It is known that once Chagatai (the second son of Temuzhin) called in the presence of his elder brother's father "the heir to the Merkit captivity." And this is all (I emphasize!) The information available to us, which allows us to deny the paternity of Genghis Khan regarding Jochi.
        But besides this, there is a mass of data indicating the opposite. So, for example, Rashid ad-Din writes:
        In the very first years of the acts of Genghis Khan, when the traces of his world power had not yet appeared on the pages of the sheets of his era, his wife, mentioned by Borte-fujin, became pregnant with Jochi Khan. At such a time the clan merkit, taking the opportunity, plundered Genghis Khan's dwelling and took away [in full] his wife, who was pregnant. Although this tribe had been at war and argued with Ong Khan before, the sovereign of the [tribe] Kerait, but at that time there was peace between them, so they sent Borte-fujin to Ong Khan. Since the latter with his father were Genghis Khan and Genghis Khan [Ong Khan] called his son, he respected and respected Borte-fujin, kept her in the position of a young daughter-in-law and protected from prying eyes. Since she was very beautiful and capable, the emirs of Ong Khan said among themselves: “Why does Ong Khan not take [himself] Borte-fujin?” He replied: “She is in the position of my son’s young wife and is safe with us ; ignoble to look at her with insidious intentions. " When Genghis Khan found out about this circumstance, he sent to Ong Khan with a request to return Borte-Fujin of an emir named Saba, from among the wag-uds of the Jelair kind ... Ong Khan, giving her attention and care, sent her along with Saba. On the way, a son was suddenly born, for this reason he was named Jochi.

        I also note that he paid for his statement regarding Juchi - Genghis Khan denied him the right to inherit the title of Great Khan. After the death of Genghis Khan (given that Jochi died earlier), this title was succeeded by Ogedei - the third son. At the same time, the descendants of Jochi from the number of applicants for the role of the Great Khan were not excluded.
        The assumption that Genghis Khan did not know how to calculate the gestational age for women and could mistake Juchi for his son seems to me not too solid. He knew (unlike us) how much time Borte spent in captivity with the Merkits. And he was not the only one, even if he wanted to deceive everyone (why on earth?) He would not succeed.

        I think the topic can be closed.
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 16 November 2019 10: 23 New
          +2
          May be. But do not forget that Rashid ad-Din was not a witness to these events, except that he was a court among the Hulaguids, whose relations with the Juchids were traditionally friendly. He would try to write something else :))
          Well, the fact that Temuchin loved Bort, I believe, does not cause objections?
          Love sometimes takes strange forms.
          I think the topic can be closed.

          close.
        2. Living7111972
          Living7111972 16 November 2019 22: 24 New
          0
          Accepted by his and pretty ...
  6. Thunderbolt
    Thunderbolt 15 November 2019 07: 36 New
    +5
    Recall that the forests of central Russia for the Mongols and the steppes of other tribes involved in their campaign were an unfamiliar and alien environment.
    As history shows, the Mongols quite victoriously waged wars in the most diverse climatic conditions and terrain. Part of Siberia and the Far East, China, Asian and BV deserts, the Caucasus and even Tibet. Successfully operated in the complex terrain of Korea and in the tropical jungle of Vietnam and Burma. Therefore, the great Central Russian forests (or rather the paths laid through them) became just another ringing coin in the piggy bank of the Mongol combat experience.
    1. Lantau
      Lantau 15 November 2019 15: 18 New
      +5
      And how many of them came to Russia? And what were the horses fed with? Have their families been with them?
      1. Hantengri
        Hantengri 15 November 2019 19: 37 New
        +1
        Quote: Lantau

        And how many of them came to Russia?

        30-40'000
        1. Lantau
          Lantau 15 November 2019 21: 10 New
          +1
          Something is not enough to conquer all of Russia))) In this whole story there are more questions than answers.
          1. Hantengri
            Hantengri 15 November 2019 21: 23 New
            +1
            Quote: Lantau
            Something is not enough to conquer all of Russia))) In this whole story there are more questions than answers.

            How much do you need? (According to the calculations of modern military historians, the Union of Princes was able to put up 7-8 thousand forged rati + about 4 thousand light Polovtsian cavalry. Two incomplete tumens 12-16 thousand well-organized and disciplined Mughal cavalry were enough to completely defeat them .)
            1. Lantau
              Lantau 15 November 2019 22: 00 New
              -4
              You apparently do not quite well imagine this amount of 30-40 thousand. They would simply be lost in our vastness. And one more thing, among the Mongols the alphabet was adopted in 1941. Is this a highly developed civilization that just yesterday picked up a notebook and pencil?
              1. Thunderbolt
                Thunderbolt 15 November 2019 22: 15 New
                +3
                Quote: Lantau
                And one more thing, among the Mongols the alphabet was adopted in 1941.

                You probably just don’t know that before the Cyrillic Mongolian they used the Old Mongolian / from the 13th century /. And both of these scripts are official in modern Mongolia.)))
              2. RF man
                RF man 24 November 2019 17: 25 New
                +2
                30-40 thousand "at the time" - a lot. In the later days, the same English people had “the history of the country was decided” in battles where there were less than 20 thousand on both sides.
          2. Vol4ara
            Vol4ara 17 November 2019 15: 57 New
            0
            Quote: Lantau
            Something is not enough to conquer all of Russia))) In this whole story there are more questions than answers.

            More than enough
        2. Severomor
          Severomor 15 November 2019 23: 28 New
          +3
          Quote: HanTengri
          30-40'000

          Why!
          Those. in December, 120 thousand were moving along the Klyazma River along the Vladimir-Suzdal Principality (if anything - a forest belt). grooms. No convoy !!!! Or with a convoy? Probably with a convoy. And then where are the Chinese masters constructing magnificent siege weapons (that’s the trouble after 50 years the Mongols will lose this great invention).
          Or without a convoy ?, And then 30 km a day with a convoy not from the hand)))) and yes ... ..
          these hardy horses ate ... ....... .... What?
          YES! "!!!! -" TEBENEVK ".
          And what is it? Great .... pedia (the main source of knowledge) reports:
          winter pasture, self-extraction of feed from horses under the snow.
          Until now, horses in Kazakhstan and Mongolia have grazed in the steppe on their own, only periodically looked after by shepherds. Herds of horses are led by stallions, which lead herds along their usual territory.
          Horses dig snow up to 40 centimeters deep with hooves and eat grass left under the snow. Given the scarcity of winter vegetation, this is a very energy-intensive method and horses lose weight noticeably in winter, therefore, in the summer, horses eat heavily, feeding fat.
          In Kazakhstan and Mongolia, sheep also graze on snow in the winter. However, unlike horses, shepherds graze them. Kazakh horses and sheep (for example, the Edilbayev breed of sheep), Mongolian horses and sheep are very resistant to frost and can graze in winter even in severe frosts.
          In the case of deep snow, horses look for places where it is blown away by the wind, and therefore the layer of snow is less. However, there are times when an ice crust forms on the snow (crust). In such cases, the horses injure their legs, eat poorly and there is a high mortality rate.. Sheep especially can not graze in the presence of infusion. Given that nomads never harvested hay, this led to a large mortality of cattle, the so-called jute.


          Conclusion: Mongolian horses are akin to Mongolian bagaturas (or whatever they are?) FABRICALLY hardy, strong and invincible !!!
          1. Hantengri
            Hantengri 15 November 2019 23: 53 New
            +8
            Quote: Severomor
            Quote: HanTengri
            30-40'000

            Why!
            Those. in December, 120 thousand were moving along the Klyazma River along the Vladimir-Suzdal Principality (if anything - a forest belt). grooms. No convoy !!!! Or with a convoy?

            In 1812, Napoleon pressed 94 cavalry into Russia. How many horses should there be, including backup ones? And including a convoy for, roughly, 600 thousand army? It is a pity that both Bonya and Batu managed to consult with you ... laughing
            1. Severomor
              Severomor 16 November 2019 15: 04 New
              +1
              November 26–29, 1812 All mass of cavalry Great Army crossed to the other side Berezina River ))). 2 days left before the calendar start of winter).
        3. Seal
          Seal 30 November 2019 16: 34 New
          +1
          Quote: HanTengri
          30-40'000
          Well, where does this figure come from? Maybe the staffing of the Mongolian army was found? Probably also Batu approved? laughing laughing fool
      2. ver_
        ver_ 16 November 2019 09: 22 New
        -5
        ..they have never been to Russia ... If you take the population of Mongolia in the 20th, century and * pass * to the 12th century, then you will come to the population of * Mongols * of 14 thousand. the man of everything (along with the women and children) ... Here is the fourth part and there will be men ..- 4000 people ... Through sands, illnesses, without grub and water ... What only the humanities will not think of ... Read simply * March march of the iron special forces of Genghis Khan * Sergey Leksutov ...
        1. Seal
          Seal 30 November 2019 16: 36 New
          0
          Quote: ver_
          What only humanities do not think of ..
          Moreover, the great Mongol conquests are written mainly by those who are not the ones who never organized a weekly field exit for at least a company, but in general did not serve in the army. Or served .. as a clerk at headquarters.
  7. Sentinel-vs
    Sentinel-vs 15 November 2019 07: 51 New
    +3
    A wonderful series of articles. Very interesting to read.
    Comrades, can you please tell me the suitable fiction about the Middle Ages. It is possible even with elements of science fiction, but what exactly was about those times of the 10-14th century.
    For example, at one time I really liked the book "Tales of Ancient Years" by Valentin Ivanov. Is there anything like that, tell me?
    1. Van 16
      Van 16 15 November 2019 08: 46 New
      +2
      Books by Vasily Yan, "Russia and the Horde" by Karateev, Akunin "Prince Cranberry", "Star", "Boch and Helm" (immediately - Akunin’s books have little relation to the science of history, but good adventure novels), from science fiction - Krasnitsky, cycle "The centurion’s grandson," but a lot can be found. hi
      1. Living7111972
        Living7111972 16 November 2019 22: 26 New
        +1
        Best Kalashnikov "cruel age"
    2. tlauicol
      tlauicol 15 November 2019 09: 08 New
      +4
      Jan has bad books. Read the "Cruel Age" by Kalashnikov
      1. SokolfromRussia
        SokolfromRussia 15 November 2019 13: 40 New
        +5
        Why don't you like Jan’s books?
        1. tlauicol
          tlauicol 15 November 2019 13: 54 New
          +3
          Quote: SokolfromRussia
          Why don't you like Jan’s books?

          a matter of taste. I didn’t like them at 10 years old - weak and some kind of artificial
    3. Mitya2424
      Mitya2424 15 November 2019 09: 12 New
      +5
      "Cruel Age" Isai Kalashnikov - an outstanding work, I highly recommend
      1. Andrey VOV
        Andrey VOV 15 November 2019 11: 43 New
        +2
        I don’t remember the author of "Dawns Over Russia" called ...
    4. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 15 November 2019 10: 44 New
      +4
      Quote: Sentinel-vs
      Please tell me suitable fiction about the Middle Ages

      Dmitry Balashov, “sovereigns of Moscow”, if you want something more historical.
      Alexey Yugov "Ratobors"
      Eduard Zorin, four books, I do not remember the names.
      In general, in the ZhZL series there are not bad books dedicated to the figures of this era, but they cannot be said to be literally artistic, although they are read quite easily.
      1. tlauicol
        tlauicol 15 November 2019 10: 54 New
        +4
        Yes, the Balashov series is quite suitable
      2. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 15 November 2019 11: 15 New
        +3
        Dmitry Balashov, “sovereigns of Moscow”, if you want something more historical.

        "Great Russia", I do not remember who the author is. But this is more of a work of art.
        Michael, I confess .. I read more “Cursed Kings” by Maurice Druon, and the last three books ... recourse
        1. Van 16
          Van 16 15 November 2019 11: 37 New
          +2
          "Great Russia" is precisely Valentin Ivanov. If I am not mistaken. The final book of the trilogy - Original Russia, Tales of ancient years, Great Russia.
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 15 November 2019 11: 38 New
            +5
            Yes, there is a trilogy. In the first part, even a Soviet film was shot. drinks
            1. bubalik
              bubalik 15 November 2019 12: 08 New
              +7
              Pane Kohanku (Pane Kohanku) Today, 12: 38

              You фyou're lying! am
              ,,, and in general the Slavs are aliens from Nibiru sent to the flat earth by the “grays” in order to end the reign of reptilians from the planet Ka-Peks. angry
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 15 November 2019 12: 42 New
                +6
                ,, and in general the Slavs are aliens from Nibiru sent to the flat earth by the “grays” in order to end the reign of reptilians from the planet Ka-Peks.

                yeah, Sergei, now there is a "patriot" who does not understand humor, and will accuse you of Russophobia too. drinks
                sent to flat earth "gray"

                this is for Anton. It seems that he knows science fiction very well, but here I am "floating" in it! request
              2. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 15 November 2019 14: 49 New
                +3
                Quote: bubalik
                You lie FSE!

                Sergei, according to the latest trends in science, it is correct to write "Fsevivrioti" and at least "ten" sticks with a dot below. laughing
          2. Sentinel-vs
            Sentinel-vs 15 November 2019 11: 42 New
            +4
            That's right. Despite the fact that this is a series of books, they are not related to each other in the plot, and even the style of the letter is different, as it seemed. "Tales of Ancient Years", in my opinion, the most exciting of this series.
    5. Severomor
      Severomor 15 November 2019 23: 35 New
      +1
      Read W. Jan. Masterpiece. Unforgettable 300 thousand Tatar-Mongol in the forest zone of Russia))))
  8. Boris55
    Boris55 15 November 2019 07: 53 New
    -4
    Again we tell tales ....

    Andrew, the first-called, not called by anyone, came to the shores of the Black Sea in the first century and reached the shores of the White Sea, presenting Russia with a new concept of living arrangements. Russia did not accept this, but did not offer anything new. By the 10 century, the Western concept took possession of the minds of individual priests and rulers who dreamed of leaving all their privileges to their children and grandchildren. The confrontation between the new and the old concept (faith) is preserved in our memory as "internecine wars."

    In the last figure in the article, this is clearly visible (circled by a red line):



    Almost three hundred years of battle between the old faith and the newcomer ended in victory for the newcomer known to us as the "Tatar-Mongol yoke", but the battle is not over yet. As an echo of the past - we still have the ROCC (http://rpsc.ru)



    “During the meeting, Vladimir Putin and Metropolitan Korniliy discussed the upcoming celebration of the 400 anniversary of the birth of the Holy Martyr Archpriest Avvakum and the reconstruction of architectural monuments in the main celebration centers - at the Rogozhsky and Preobrazhensky cemeteries in Moscow. Problems of interaction with compatriots were also touched upon as part of the national policy abroad".

    ps
    I am not a supporter of any other faith (concept).
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 15 November 2019 08: 39 New
      -2
      I will give pleasure to minusers once again minus me. laughing

      I’ll add about the picture.

      In the upper red "circle" the representatives of the new faith with three fingers (pinch) baptize the adherents of the old faith (the Old Believers are not baptized with a cookie). Behind the new faith, warriors on horseback with swords. New faith in Russia was implanted by fire and sword.

      In the lower red "circle" the wise magicians who are not bored stand in defense of the faith of the ancestors, their people, ahead of the people. They were killed first.
      1. tlauicol
        tlauicol 15 November 2019 09: 02 New
        +7
        Until triple into Russia for another long 400 years. Even at the time of writing the miniature it was not there.
        And what kind of vile Western concept is this, especially when you consider that the West did not use triplets in 1237, and now too.
        P.S. but the torches were
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 16 November 2019 08: 54 New
          +3
          Quote: Tlauicol
          Until triple into Russia for a long 400 years.

          These questions are not for me, but for the artist who painted this picture and for the date of events that describes what is happening. I see what is painted.

          Quote: Tlauicol
          And what kind of vile Western concept is this,

          Anti-human, known as Biblical.
      2. tlauicol
        tlauicol 15 November 2019 09: 12 New
        +5
        What, the analysis of Slavic faces in miniatures 16-17vv already out of fashion? Passed on fingers?
        My advice to you: start right away with prints and iris in the pictures of the New Time - you will be the first among the chroniclers for the next few years
    2. Konstantin Shevchenko
      Konstantin Shevchenko 15 November 2019 09: 30 New
      +3
      Also noted that Russian miniatures do not fit the topic. It can be seen in the drawings or even emphasized that the regular army is attacking the townspeople, brought to the same standard of ammunition and in one color scheme in the European style. If we are painted in white raincoats with red crosses, we get the Templars led by a warrior with a crown, the only spoilers are the warriors who have a bastard-horse who doesn’t fit with the ammunition of the Turks and does not look like a united rabble of nomads.
      1. sivuch
        sivuch 15 November 2019 09: 53 New
        +7
        Hello, on miniatures from the annals of all warriors are sabers (since illustrations are from the earliest 15th century), and not European swords or swords. .The most ridiculous thing is that in the 13th century the Mongols (whatever their proper name) wielded straight huldu swords
        1. Konstantin Shevchenko
          Konstantin Shevchenko 15 November 2019 10: 12 New
          +4
          "Ruin of Ryazan" warriors with straight swords. Batu Khan with a straight sword. "Scolding the pious ..." with sabers on both sides and with a blush. Really not logical and contradictory. We can certainly assume that the purchase of weapons and ammunition was from one military laughing why not.
          1. sivuch
            sivuch 15 November 2019 10: 22 New
            +3
            Yeah, in Chinese Batu miniature, the Chinese sword is jian. Tradition s. But at the same time, in Chinese miniatures, Batu has 3 arrows in the quiver, and at the beast-shaped Subedea - already 4. Because it is not Genghiside
            1. Konstantin Shevchenko
              Konstantin Shevchenko 15 November 2019 13: 25 New
              +2
              What can you say about straight swords on miniatures taking Ryazan, Moscow, Suzdal? And in the foreground two swords on each miniature, as it is symbolic. If the Chinese had not signed that it was Batu Khan, I would have thought a samurai. laughing
              1. Hantengri
                Hantengri 15 November 2019 19: 51 New
                +4
                Quote: Konstantin Shevchenko
                What can you say about straight swords on miniatures taking Ryazan, Moscow, Suzdal?

                What can I say? Only: “The artist sees this.”, For the capture of Ryazan, Moscow, Suzdal is X ||| in, and the miniatures are the century XV |. There is no other, secret meaning here.
          2. tlauicol
            tlauicol 15 November 2019 11: 08 New
            +3
            The battle of the pious is the lubok of the 18th century to the life of Euphrosyne. Well, at least the Shuvalov unicorns are not painted on
    3. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 15 November 2019 10: 51 New
      +5
      Boris, still on the icons of the XVI century. you will see saints blessing the flock with only two fingers.
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 16 November 2019 09: 01 New
        +2
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        still on the icons of the XVI century. you will see saints blessing the flock with only two fingers.

        And today it can be seen:

    4. Trapperxnumx
      Trapperxnumx 15 November 2019 14: 01 New
      +6
      Boris, if we study history only from pictures, then looking at the portraits of Lenin in China, we will think that he was a Chinese. Don't bullshit please.
    5. karabass
      karabass 15 November 2019 14: 49 New
      +3
      All as you say, By the way, probably you do not know: this is not a drawing! this photo!
  9. Olgovich
    Olgovich 15 November 2019 08: 04 New
    +1
    But why did the Mongols "make a detour" by entering the lands of the northeastern principalities? And was it necessary to do this?

    The author did not give an answer to his own question. request
    Strange just the monstrous demand of the "wives and daughters" of the Ryazan ambassadors, nevertheless, seems like a literary fiction
    hiding the true meaning of this incident. After all, the Horde khans never made such demands on the Russian princes completely submissive to them.

    Even if we assume that one of the hungry Mongols (the same Guyuk or Storms), who wanted to end the negotiations and start the war, suddenly shouted such words at the feast, deliberately provoking ambassadors, the refusal of the guests could be a reason for breaking up relations, but not reprisals them.

    Perhaps, in this case, there was a tragic misunderstanding of the traditions and customs of the first meeting of representatives of different nations. Something in the behavior of Fyodor Yuryevich and his people could seem to the Mongols defiant and inappropriate, and provoke a conflict.

    The easiest way to imagine their refusal to go through the ritual of purification by fire is a must when visiting the yurt of the khan. Or - refusal to bow to the image of Genghis Khan

    it was a murder for violation of supposed traditions that seemed like a strange fiction: people were no stupider than us then and understood the need to explain the rules of conduct at the first meeting: this is always and everywhere.

    But the obviously unacceptable requirements and the refusal to comply with them and could cause reprisal.
    1. VLR
      15 November 2019 08: 20 New
      +3
      Obviously unacceptable requirements and the refusal to satisfy them are a reason for breaking relations and war. Not for killing ambassadors. But the refusal to undergo the necessary rituals of purification and disrespect for the Mongol traditions is an occasion, which is proved by the fate of Mikhail Chernigov. In the future, the Russians and the Mongols "got used to" and such acute situations did not arise.
      1. sivuch
        sivuch 15 November 2019 09: 55 New
        +6
        In the case of Michael, there was a conscious refusal to perform, not out of ignorance
        1. VLR
          15 November 2019 10: 02 New
          +1
          Yes, for this they canonized. And Fedor Yuryevich, too, could consciously refuse to perform pagan rites.
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 15 November 2019 11: 29 New
        +1
        Quote: VlR
        the refusal to undergo the necessary rituals of purification and disrespect for the Mongol traditions is an occasion, which is proved by the fate of Mikhail Chernigov.

        Namely, that occasion, and even then it is doubtful. Batu had enough reasons to execute Mikhail, most importantly, reasons, both legal and political, and without abandoning the rite of purification. What is only the execution of the Mongolian ambassadors in Kiev. He was cowardly, treacherous, short-sighted and, most importantly, nobody needs.
        As for the execution of the Ryazan embassy, ​​I would note the fact that it took place immediately upon returning to the Batu headquarters of the Mongolian embassy from Prince Yuri. These two facts may well be related.
        In general, it seems to me that in this case, as in many others, it is necessary to look not for reasons, but for reasons. For example, as an option, the returning embassy revealed for Batu the fact that, under the guise of negotiations with him, the Ryazan princes were preparing for war and looking for allies, dragging time. Thus, the embassy of Ryazan to the Mongols in the eyes of Batu turned out to be completely a hoax. Having received this information, as well as information that Yuri did not intervene for Ryazan, Batu executed the "deceivers" and moved to Ryazan.
        This design seems more real to me, especially since Prince Fedor spent quite a long time at Batu headquarters before execution. In fact, he was not an ambassador, as such, but a hostage, and as soon as the true, hostile plans of the Ryazan princes were revealed, he was executed.
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 15 November 2019 13: 14 New
          +2
          For example, as an option, the returning embassy revealed for Batu the fact that, under the guise of negotiations with him, the Ryazan princes were preparing for war and looking for allies, dragging time. Thus, the embassy of Ryazan to the Mongols in the eyes of Batu turned out to be completely a hoax. Having received this information, as well as information that Yuri did not intervene for Ryazan, Batu executed the "deceivers" and moved to Ryazan.

          hmm .. logical! And there was no time to lose either ... soldier I bow to Pana Kohanku! drinks
      3. Olgovich
        Olgovich 15 November 2019 11: 50 New
        -4
        Quote: VlR
        Obviously unacceptable requirements and the refusal to satisfy them are a reason for breaking relations and war. Not for killing ambassadors.

        This is purely YOUR opinion, which does not seem convincing
      4. karabass
        karabass 15 November 2019 14: 52 New
        +4
        Your version is noteworthy, maybe so and maybe not
        In many cases, it happens exactly as the legend says, and not otherwise! They are tenacious
        In this case, the legend I trust more than you
  10. Mitya2424
    Mitya2424 15 November 2019 09: 47 New
    +3
    "On the Mongol attack on the Ryazan lands, opposing information has been preserved." - Not quite a successful formulation used by the author. It is read thus, some believe that the proud Ryazan fought to the end, others that the Ryazans themselves are to blame, provoking the good and honest Mongols with their boorish behavior.

    AUTHOR, I turn to YOU: Ryazan is the only city of the 14 taken by the Mongols, which was completely destroyed and rebuilt in a new place, and its inhabitants are completely exterminated "from small to large" and this is a fact that more than eloquently describes the nature of that confrontation.
    Ryazans fought, all as one and all died, compare with the withdrawal of residents from the walls of Khorezm for three days to rob.
    1. VLR
      15 November 2019 09: 56 New
      +4
      Nobody argues with that. At first there was an attempt to negotiate, and then fierce resistance. And one does not contradict the other.
      Well, what happened at Batu Khan’s headquarters, and who provoked whom, is hard to say. Perhaps not Batu, and not Fedor, but someone from other Genghisides who wanted not peace and tribute, but war and exploits.
    2. SokolfromRussia
      SokolfromRussia 15 November 2019 10: 41 New
      +4
      14 cities - this is only in the Vladimir-Suzdal principality. In the annals, Ryazan and Chernihiv cities were considered separately. Not only Ryazan has not recovered, some other cities have disappeared.
    3. Seal
      Seal 15 November 2019 16: 18 New
      0
      What kind of Ryazan can we talk about?
      It is believed that at the very beginning of the XIII century, Vladimir Prince Vsevolod the Big Nest burned down in 1207 or 1208 (here historians argue when exactly) the city of Ryazan. In the same year (one of two) the same Vsevolod destroyed Belgorod Ryazan. Vsevolod brought all Ryazans and probably Belgorod residents from the Ryazan principality and settled them on Suzdal land. The city of Ryazan has not revived. Also Vsevolod ruined the Ryazan cities of Pronsk and Izheslavets. How many people returned to the ashes of Ryazan? Hardly a lot. More likely a little. Suppose, after 10 years, several thousand people returned. Hardly more. Was they able to revive Ryazan? Not sure. Most likely they settled down to live in a hitherto unknown, but surviving small town (or maybe a village, which they began to equip as a city), which they began to call Ryazan. But here they were not safe. The Vladimir team was impatient to finish off the Ryazans and only ten years later, in 1219, another war followed and another siege of the rather new town “Ryazan” by the Vladimir people. Again, the Russians and the Erzya perished. Ryazan is rather the city of the people of Erzya. Hence the name Ryazan. Or maybe ERZYAN. Then the conventional "Ryazan" was forced to fight with Murom in 1232.
      1. Mitya2424
        Mitya2424 15 November 2019 16: 47 New
        0
        The same Ryazan, which by 1237 was a well-fortified city with 10-meter sheer earthen ramparts and an 8-meter moat.

        Quote: Seal
        Ryazan is rather the city of the people of Erzya. Hence the name Ryazan. Or maybe ERZYAN. Then the conditional "Ryazan"
        - fierce nonsense, Slavs-Vyatichi in the Finno-Ugric record.

        Quote: Seal
        It is believed that at the very beginning of the XIII century, Vladimir Prince Vsevolod the Big Nest burned down in 1207 or 1208 (here historians argue when exactly) the city of Ryazan.
        - Exactly, and before that, Gleb Ryazansky, along with the Polovtsy, burned Moscow in 1177, and so what?
        1. Seal
          Seal 2 December 2019 11: 11 New
          0
          Quote: Mitya2424
          for sure, and before that, Gleb Ryazansky, together with the Polovtsy, burned Moscow in 1177, and so what?
          Firstly, the year 1177 is not the 1208th.
          Secondly, it is not written anywhere that Gleb Ryazansky removed all Muscovites from Moscow and resettled them (further from your imagination, where exactly he resettled).

          Moscow, like all other cities, itself regularly burned. One more fire, one less fire - not the point ...
      2. SokolfromRussia
        SokolfromRussia 15 November 2019 16: 50 New
        +1
        In the sense of "the city of Ryazan has not revived"? The son of Vsevolod released the Big Nest from dungeons and Ryazan princes, and the boyars and those residents who were taken from the principality. "Vsevolod stole all the inhabitants of Ryazan" - this is speculation. In what source did you find this? About the stages of history of the city of Ryazan, archaeologists wrote a lot according to the results of excavations. Look at least Darkevich’s book “Journey to Ancient Ryazan”.

        The city was rebuilt by Ingvar with his sons, they then fought against Gleb and the Polovtsy, who organized a massacre in Isad. In the annals of all this is well reflected. In 1219 "Ryazan besieged by the Vladimir"? What kind of fantasies?

        "Conditional Ryazan fought with Murom"? Clearly, another Fomenkovets. I am taking my leave for the sim.
  11. sivuch
    sivuch 15 November 2019 09: 58 New
    +1
    The killing by the Russian princes of the Mongolian ambassadors before the Battle of Kalka was also not forgotten by them
    I don’t know, they wrote about it, but according to some reports, among the killed ambassadors was the son of Subudai
    1. VLR
      15 November 2019 09: 59 New
      +2
      Yes, there is such a version (about the two sons of Subudey who were with him on this campaign, and one turned out to be part of the first embassy), in the previous article it is described.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 15 November 2019 14: 53 New
        0
        Quote: VlR
        Yes, there is such a version

        Valery, if not a secret, where is this version presented? It's just that I really never heard it before reading your article.
  12. Alexey-74
    Alexey-74 15 November 2019 10: 15 New
    +2
    Thanks to the author. It is a pity that in schools they study so little of the period of the Mongol invasion and the struggle of the Russian principalities against the conquerors. The key battles in 1237-1238 were little studied (not to mention teaching in schools).
  13. SokolfromRussia
    SokolfromRussia 15 November 2019 10: 36 New
    +4
    The text is interesting, the only thing I will allow a few comments.

    Davyd Yurievich could not take part in the battle on Voronezh, since you died in 1228. You obviously took this from The Tale of the Ruin of Ryazan Batu. In it, the author confuses the princes. The name of Prince Pronsky also remains unknown. Only presumably his name was Vsevolod, it is not known exactly. In Kolomna, then, Roman Ingvarevich ruled, and not a certain Gleb.

    Further, 14 cities destroyed by Batu are the cities of the Vladimir-Suzdal principality. In addition to them, cities were destroyed in the Principality of Ryazan (which you list) and on the outskirts of Chernigov (Vschizh, Serensk, Kozelsk).

    As for the "pass" of Ryazan ambassadors to Vladimir, this is completely logical. Yuri Vsevolodovich was overlord of Ryazan. In addition, there were very good relations between the Ryazan and Vladimir princes, Ryazans and Murom always supported Yuri Vsevolodovich in his military actions. Moreover, it was he who released the captive Ryazan princes from Vladimir dungeons in the 1212 year, gifted them and returned their principality to them. A very noble act. Could just take over Ryazan and other cities. But he not only released the princes, but also the boyars and ordinary people who were removed from the Ryazan principality by his father Vsevolod the Big Nest. And after the tragedy in Isad, he gave them full support against Gleb Vladimirovich and the Polovtsy.

    Ryazan's help was sent, but simply did not have time. If the Ryazan prince remained in Ryazan, then he would wait for the approach of the Vladimir squads led by Vsevolod Yurievich and Voivode Yeremey. They came to Kolomna, and she was the inheritance of Ryazan. And Yuri Ingvarevich probably went to avenge his insidiously killed son and died in the battle with the Horde.
    1. VLR
      15 November 2019 10: 44 New
      +2
      About Kolomna - at the beginning of the next article. I will not get ahead of myself. Indeed, Roman Ingvarevich defended her, and died there, but he could replace the killed Gleb.
      And in Ryazan Vladimirites, in any case, did not have time.
      1. SokolfromRussia
        SokolfromRussia 15 November 2019 10: 50 New
        +3
        Gleb Ingvarevich is unknown in the annals. In the Resurrection Chronicle, for example, Yuri, Roman, and Oleg are called the sons of Ingvar. Given that the author of the Tale strongly mixed up with the names of the princes, it is entirely possible that Gleb Ingvarevich did not exist at all.
  14. alebor
    alebor 15 November 2019 11: 16 New
    +6
    Most of all I was struck in the article by the mention of the monument to Sudedey in Tuva, opened on 1 of September 2017. I really did not expect that this is possible in Russia. This is about how to erect a monument to Murat or Guderian.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      Edward Vashchenko 15 November 2019 11: 24 New
      +4
      friendship of Peoples lol
    2. VLR
      15 November 2019 11: 26 New
      +5
      They consider him a "great countryman."
      Another monument is at the entrance to the Bai-Taiginsky district:


      In the comments on the last article, I already uploaded this photo, but you probably missed it, look at who they compared Shoigu with in the album for his anniversary “Do your job”:
      :
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 15 November 2019 13: 16 New
        +8
        There is another monument at the entrance to the Bai-Taiginsky district

        In the first photo - Subeday and his faithful cat? wink
        Valery, I’m a little off topic. In Ancient Russia, if I am not mistaken, did they know cheetahs? hi
        1. VLR
          15 November 2019 13: 30 New
          +4
          Seems Yes. They called them "Pardus." I read that in the "Svyatoslav Izbornik" there is an image of two cheetahs with collars hunting hares.
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 15 November 2019 13: 40 New
            +5
            I read that in the "Svyatoslav Izbornik" there is an image of two cheetahs with collars hunting hares.

            and also, I remember, there is a message about how the "fierce beast" attacked the hunting Monomakh. Almost a lion! fellow
            1. bubalik
              bubalik 15 November 2019 13: 52 New
              +11
              Suddenly the noise, and the cry, and the knock of swords,
              And blood, and death, and there is no mercy!
              That with Russian power Monomakh
              The all-devastating appeared.



              Alexander Degtev. Cheetah hunting. Vladimir Monomakh.
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 15 November 2019 14: 08 New
                +9
                Alexander Degtev. Cheetah hunting. Vladimir Monomakh.

                class! but I wonder, in the south, in the steppe, then they lived? drinks
                and here’s another question: was falconry then only princely entertainment, or could the richer people (boyars, for example) also afford?
                I did not understand at all why in my previous comment someone put a minus to me .... laughing
                and also, I remember, there is a message about how the "fierce beast" attacked the hunting Monomakh. Almost a lion!

                why the hell ???? belay gremlins? wink
                1. VLR
                  15 November 2019 14: 15 New
                  +6
                  In medieval Europe, only members of the royal family could use gyrfalcons for hunting, peregrine falcons — dukes and counts, priest-hawks — priests.
                  This is from here: Silaeva O. History of domestication of birds. // Journal of Biology. No. 4. M., 2004, p. 23.
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 15 November 2019 14: 47 New
                    +7
                    In medieval Europe, only members of the royal family could use gyrfalcons for hunting, peregrine falcons — dukes and counts, priest-hawks — priests.

                    Wow! straight class division! belay and we have?
                    white gyrfalcons .. From Magidovich, about the viking voyage to America:
                    As a result of these hunting sea expeditions, the Normans discovered the Baffin Sea, the entire eastern coast of Fr. Baffin's Land, literally teeming in those days with white gyrfalcons, eiders and narwhals.
                    It turns out that gyrfalcons were delivered from the north!
                    Awesome site, according to the books of Magidovich, with comments: http://discover-history.com/
                    And in Russia, how was they hunted with birds of prey? .... Valery, I'm sorry that I was sick of questions! drinks
                2. bubalik
                  bubalik 15 November 2019 14: 27 New
                  +11
                  was falconry then only princely entertainment, or could the richer people (boyars, for example) also afford?
                  ,, and simpler - peasants hunting with sparrows belay laughing
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 15 November 2019 14: 48 New
                    +4
                    and easier peasants hunting with sparrows

                    or with a horned bear! fellow
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 15 November 2019 17: 38 New
                      +7
                      On a bear - with hamsters. A hundred lemmings tear the bear apart!
                      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 November 2019 19: 55 New
                        +7
                        Quote: bubalik
                        was falconry then only princely entertainment, or could the richer people (boyars, for example) also afford?
                        ,, and simpler - peasants hunting with sparrows belay laughing

                        Quote: Pan Kohanku
                        and easier peasants hunting with sparrows

                        or with a horned bear! fellow

                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        On a bear - with hamsters. A hundred lemmings tear the bear apart!


                        The guys could not resist!
                        He offered to hunt his cat in the ear!
                        Got an answer!

                        Well, you understand, I definitely can’t see the skins of a bear in the living room !!! drinks
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 15 November 2019 21: 32 New
                        +4
                        We understood only one thing. Nefig animals on mammoths to drag, and then, offer small game! So she ignored.
              2. Yaik Cossack
                Yaik Cossack 15 November 2019 19: 53 New
                +7
                Yes, the Russian cheetahs knew well, they called it “pardus”. How they were tamed and used for hunting is still not known. Alas, they disappeared around the 15th century. In addition, tigers survived to the 19th century in Central Asia in turgai forests. They probably also lived in the lower Volga
                1. Sentinel-vs
                  Sentinel-vs 16 November 2019 05: 32 New
                  0
                  It seems to me, despite Wikipedia, that Lynx or leopards were called Pardus, but hardly cheetahs.
    3. Lannan Shi
      Lannan Shi 15 November 2019 18: 15 New
      +5
      Quote: VlR
      Another monument is at the entrance to the Bai-Taiginsky district:

      So, for information. A Mongolian horse is good for everyone but one. It weighs an average of 270-280 pounds. This is modern, after a massive infusion in the 50s of Budyonnovsky blood. A classic Mongolian, purebred, in the region of 220-250 kilos, look at the pictures of the 30s. Why am I doing this? And probably to the fact that on the back the horse can drag about 1/5 of its weight. And then - disability and sausage shop. Anatomy however. And under the tabernacles with a photo, the Mongolian will die almost immediately. Yeah.
      By the way. Another advantage of the Mongolian is their amazing speed. The average European Mongolian, in speed, loses about a third. In other words, in terms of speed and maneuverability, the Mongol cavalry is closer to infantry than to cavalry. That evokes vague doubts about the ability of the Mongol horsemen to perform any maneuvers there, losing at a speed of about 15 km / h. Simply put, stories in the style of "circled falling asleep, lured by false retreats", or outright nonsense, or not about the Mongols. For the Mongols, on their nags, even the heaviest cavalry, on the steer-like heavy trucks will get seconds in 40-45. And the average for 20, a maximum of 30.
      Have you been to Naadam? I recommend visiting, admiring the races. A miserable sight, heartbreaking. At times heals from delirium, on the topic of the Mongol megakonnitsy. And one more thing. In times not mythical, but in those from which there are real documents, the Chinese drove mega-mobile Mongolian cavalry on foot. In the steppe. Yeah.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 15 November 2019 18: 33 New
        +4
        Dear, how did you calculate these 15 km / h? I already admired your math and abilities (seriously!), Remember? But now, "I am tormented by vague doubts."
        1. Lannan Shi
          Lannan Shi 15 November 2019 18: 40 New
          +6
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          Dear, how did you calculate these 15 km / h?

          Racecourse of the city of Ulan Bator. See the results, record, then compare with the data of European women. Subject to proficiency in mathematics, at least within 4 classes they must cope.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 15 November 2019 19: 59 New
            +2
            You excuse me, dear, but appealing to modern facts, sharply contradicts historical modeling. You already wrote once that transporting two and a half tons of minted copper for 5-10 km is a military operation, as for me, a half-squadron is quite enough.
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 15 November 2019 20: 03 New
              0
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              You already wrote once that transporting two and a half tons of minted copper on 5-10 km is a military operation, as for me, the floor of the squadron, is quite enough.

              Did not quite understand. What is hammered copper?
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 15 November 2019 20: 06 New
                +4
                Stupidly coins, the weight of which operated on Lannan Shi in the previous cycle Ryzhkov.
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 15 November 2019 20: 11 New
                  0
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  Stupidly coins, the weight of which operated this Shi

                  Phew ... Again I didn’t understand anything ... I’m stupid, right? recourse
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 15 November 2019 20: 17 New
                    +2
                    Yes, everything is fine, Vladimir! Just read Ryzhkov’s cycle about Peter III, and comments.
            2. Lannan Shi
              Lannan Shi 16 November 2019 09: 15 New
              +5
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              You excuse me, dear, but appealing to modern facts, sharply contradicts historical modeling.

              Translating into simple Russian - "yes, we are aware that our theories contradict all sciences, from geography with zoology to physics with mathematics, but the story is not about facts, it is about the adventures of elves and gnumah."
      2. Yaik Cossack
        Yaik Cossack 15 November 2019 20: 06 New
        +7
        You are fantasizing. I don’t know only who your amateurish thoughts are intended for. The history of the wars of Manchu China with the Oirats and the Khalkha-Mongols refutes all your fabrications. Mongols, for example Amursan, easily left the Manchu cavalry. Only when the subordinate Mongolian troops began to fight on the side of China did the advantage in mobility be lost.
        In equestrian combat, even at the beginning of the 20 century, attacks and movements were not galloped. Step or trot, i.e. relatively slow. It was only in films that the horse masses raced .... Read the charters. The Kyrgyz horse, like the Mongolian one, is small, but very hardy. Got it. As far back as the 19th century, almost all of the Urals, Orenburg, and Siberian Cossacks rode them. But the Slavs are larger physically than the Mongols.
        1. Lannan Shi
          Lannan Shi 16 November 2019 09: 12 New
          +4
          Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
          Mongols, for example Amursan, easily left the Manchu cavalry.

          Hee hee Terelj. The Chineses, dragging carts and artillery, drive the Mongol "mobile" cavalry.
          Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
          In equestrian combat, even at the beginning of the 20th century, attacks and movements were not carried out at a gallop. Step or trot, i.e. relatively slow.

          Not even, namely in the 20th century. But even at 17m, the troops had some difficulties with maxims and three-rulers, and the enemy’s tight formation was broken at a gallop. Exclusion of Reitars with their Karakol.
          Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
          The Kyrgyz horse, like the Mongolian one, is small, but very hardy.

          The average weight of the Kyrgyz, clean, is 350 kg. It is closer to the hussar (it’s not about winged, but about light hussars) than to the Mongol. And the Mongolian is closer to the pony than to the Kyrgyz. Have you ever seen a Mongolian live? Thoroughbred, not "stunned" by the Don and Budyonov impurities? Not? And I saw and went. This is a real monkey. Just above the waist. At my 179 cm, for "being in the saddle", I actually had enough to throw a leg from the ground. Speed ​​is absent as a phenomenon. No, at the races, with a six-year-old rider, half a pound in weight, it can somehow accelerate, but under my 56-57 kg, it shows a speed slightly higher than a running person. Chocolate, the horse on which I ride, a cross between an Englishwoman and a donkey, will trot around the galloping monkey. In general, among Europeans, a record for 1600 meters is 1 min 36 sec, and in a Mongolian 2 m 4 sec. 30% faster. No theoretical stamina from the Mongols even in theory does not smell. In not a single 50s distance race did the steppe even come close to 300 km per day shown by the Don and Tersk. We read a book about the horse, volume 1, Budyonny. In fact, the Mongolian - the horse of the degenerate, living by the principle - never worked, and I will not. And her only advantage is the ability not to die of hunger while the sloth koumiss is fermenting. And only the sofa cavalryman, who has not seen Mongolia, nor the Mongol, nor their "megaworses", can carry nonsense about megapodical hordes of steppe stinkers on monkeys.
          Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
          Got it.

          Phew Do not disgrace. Fuck where the snow with her ears cover? The steppe horse is not a mole or a bulldozer. Raking snow, tens of tons, or digging burrows, poorly adapted.
          1. Yaik Cossack
            Yaik Cossack 16 November 2019 13: 50 New
            +6
            Madam, do some sports if you can, but the story is not yours. ))))
            So the facts about Amursana and his movement from the Manchurian cavalry (I hope you understand the word “cavalry” at least) you could not refute, replacing them with slurred interjections. This is the time.

            About "breaking the line" - you again begin to bustle. Yes, heavy cavalry (I hope the difference between heavy cavalry and Mongolian horse shooters), when struck with cold steel in the final segment, was accelerated for a short time. So what? Yes, the Mongols, too, if necessary, could disperse for a short time, and if necessary, even flee with a bait. But this does not refute my words at all. The main movements on the battlefield were slow. But for aimed archery, speed is generally contraindicated. These are two.

            I omit your sports calculations because of unnecessity. I not only saw the Mongolian horse, I saw archival documents of horse repair of the Russian army with a description of the technical breeds.
            You are talking nonsense by comparing a modern Kyrgyz horse with what was then. The current has already been improved in the Soviet stud farms. The then one was no different from the Mongolian. Rides on 1600 meters for speed from the then horses were not required. These are three.

            I have been to Mongolia more than once. These are four.

            To refute the reality of the Mongol campaigns is complete nonsense. Rather, the clinic. It's five.

            I am not a sofa cavalryman, but a professional historian, therefore I do not claim your right to understand a saddle of a sports horse or grades of manure. This is six.

            What is tebenevka - you also do not know. In a significant part of Mongolia and the Eurasian steppes there is no snow over the ears. A geographic guide to help you. This is seven.
            1. Yaik Cossack
              Yaik Cossack 16 November 2019 14: 29 New
              +3
              When attacking heavily armed cavalry (any), the maximum speed of the horse is not only unnecessary, but also harmful. This is not a race at the racetrack. There is a risk that the construction will be broken, someone will lag, or vice versa, will jump forward, and this is extremely dangerous. Instead of ramming, it may turn out to be embarrassing.
              And further. From XIII to the acceleration greatly changed a person. Another modern tall lady weighs more in a swimsuit than a Mongol in his full armament))))
              Here, someone else spoke of the direct swords of the Mongols as a suspicious detail. Just at the time of Genghis Khan, the classical Mongolian sword was straight, curved blades are found less archaeologically. And of course, all illustrations of Russian chronicles cannot serve as any evidence. They are much later and executed in a sketchy, rather iconographic and conditional manner. No one is surprised that on the icon George the Victorious (Roman warrior) wears the clothes of a medieval Russian prince)))))
            2. Lannan Shi
              Lannan Shi 16 November 2019 15: 52 New
              +7
              Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
              So the facts about Amursana and his movement from the Manchurian cavalry

              The facts are that the Zins systematically caught and slaughtered Amursans. And the megaspeed nags of the latter somehow did not save.
              Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
              Yes, heavy cavalry (I hope the difference between heavy cavalry and Mongolian horse shooters), when struck with cold steel in the final segment, was accelerated for a short time.

              A short?

              Shire against Kleksdal. Knightly horses are hung with envy, for the first breed is a ton and a quarter, and the second without a penny a ton. The “short” acceleration time is enough to catch up with the Mongol. With a margin.
              Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
              Yes, the Mongols, too, if necessary, could accelerate for a short time,

              Could. In one case. If a kindergartner is put on a Mongolian in training, as they do on a naadam. Under the armed rider, it is, in principle, unable to accelerate. I understand, they write stories, that's just horse physiology against. It is impossible to accelerate to 60 km, with a load under a centner, what 45 does not produce even without a load.
              Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
              I not only saw the Mongolian horse, I saw archival documents of horse repair of the Russian army with a description of the technical breeds.

              Let me doubt both the first and the second. If you were at least a little concerned with the issues of horse riding, then Budyonny’s verdict about the unsuitability of steppe rocks for the ranks, due to the wretchedness of speed, load-bearing capacity and categorically indigestible humid climate, in which the steppes die quickly and efficiently, is impossible to miss.
              Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
              You are talking nonsense by comparing a modern Kyrgyz horse with what was then. The current has already been improved in the Soviet stud farms.

              So ... For info. What you call the Kyrgyz breed is not. Actually, the Kyrgyz people are about 50 years old. This is a new Kyrgyz breed. And it weighs 400+. And not 350 as a pure Kyrgyz.
              Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
              Races at 1600 meters for speed from the then horses were not required.

              Ugums. From your point of view, speed is generally an excessive indicator for cavalry. She moved only by step.
              Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
              I am not a sofa cavalryman, but a professional historian, therefore I do not pretend to

              Knowledge in any field.
              Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
              What is tebenevka - you also do not know.

              Tebenevka is moving at a speed of 500-600 meters per day. During which the unfortunate cattle eats half-rotten scraps, with near-zero nutritional value. And since there are catastrophically small scraps, and they also need to be scratched out from under the snow, this process takes up all the free time from sleep. And these very 500 meters per day limit the mobility of the Mongolian cavalry in the winter.
              Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
              In a significant part of Mongolia and the Eurasian steppes there is no snow over the ears.

              But it happens in Russia. I have a miniseries behind the fence. Everyone loves honey, and the extra 40-50 thousand, they are not superfluous. In February, the inspection did. Despite the winters with little snow, she hooted ... Hmm ... Well, let's say, in the ass. I had to take a shovel. And even 50 years ago, on a field near Moscow, a Mongol would head off into the snow. What nafig you? And to feed the grain, the grass horse will die on the grain. What nafig invasion of the steppe? 600 kilos of hay per horse's face per month, minimum. If this muzzle is working in the cold, and not dug in a stall. Hay is not oats, hay per 1 feed unit leaves 3 times more. 3,5 tons per horse, campaign 1-37. 38 kilotons per tumen. 105-300 thousand for the entire army. What the fuck are the Mongols? With half a million tons of convoys? A completely pro army came to Russia, in which the cavalry was, of course, but its percentage did not even approach 500. And this cavalry was quite settled, oatmeal. In a different scenario ... Either the Mongols die of hunger, or they build the railway, and drive the hay with echelons. That's just horse physiology against winter runs of steppe women, but in Vladimir forests.
              1. Severomor
                Severomor 16 November 2019 17: 10 New
                +2
                Quote: Lannan Shi
                And these very 500 meters per day limit the mobility of the Mongolian cavalry in the winter.

                5+ points. Bravo, the pros do not give more to put))). Here it is, the magic word "you shit." But fans of 100+ (sometimes 300+, and sometimes 40+! (Achievement however)) of the thousandth Mongol army often speak of straw on roofs in villages and expropriation of horse feed from the population.
                1. Lannan Shi
                  Lannan Shi 16 November 2019 18: 06 New
                  +5
                  Quote: Severomor
                  often talk about straw on roofs in villages

                  Fodder units in rotten straw, on the roof that is lying down, God forbid, 0,1-0,15 in kilograms. A horse that cuts around the clock in the cold, and with a load, needs to be in the region of 12. Well, at a discount on the rickety Mongolok - about 10. Chew 70-100 kilos. Somewhere under the stomach of an elephant is a bullet.
                  Quote: Severomor
                  and expropriation of horse feed in the population.

                  Again parquet. But this time, farmers. Not even suspecting how scarce hay is in the forests, and how few cattle were ... Cut down the forest for pastures and hayfields? When are there not enough hands on the fields? Oh yes ... Gentlemen know a lot about perversions.
                2. Yaik Cossack
                  Yaik Cossack 17 November 2019 00: 26 New
                  +4
                  You heard a ringing, but did not understand what it was about. In Russia, the Mongol horses did not chase. Tebenevka was used up to the 20 century in the Black Sea, Volga, Kazakhstan steppes and part of the Gobi. Tebenevka allowed to sharply reduce the harvesting of fodder for the winter. At the same time, all nomads were perfectly able to harvest hay.
                  Tebenevka made it possible to facilitate the campaigns of nomads in winter and spring, reducing the volume of transported reserves. At the same time, the army marched a certain distance, and then stopped to rest for several days, dismissing the horses for tebenevka.

                  Stop, carried away, why am I telling all this to people who do not need knowledge, they are already convinced that there could not be any campaigns by the Mongols (and hence the Huns, Turks, Avars, Khazars, Pechenegs, Guz, Kipchaks, Kalmyks) at all. ...
              2. Yaik Cossack
                Yaik Cossack 16 November 2019 17: 11 New
                +3
                Well, you are from the sect of the Novokhronoltsev)))) But I didn’t see it right away. They would say so ... I would not waste my time.
                Apiary, Masek, Mongols, snow on the ass .... after all, the obvious symptoms.
                I apologize, the history of the new chronology has nothing to do.
                It is rather a subject for the study of deviant suggestibility of people or entomology ....))))
                1. Lannan Shi
                  Lannan Shi 16 November 2019 18: 07 New
                  0
                  Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
                  Well, you are from the sect of Novohronolzhtsev)

                  Yes Yes. And our head is Uncle Sema Budyonny. 70 years ago, he explained that the Mongolian Tumens go through the section of psychiatry, not history. But he is only the leader of real Tumens, not fantasy ones. Now, if he rode around the kitchen, on a stool, in a raid on the refrigerator, like a pro historian, then yes. Then there would be authority, and so - a miserable upstart.
                  1. Sentinel-vs
                    Sentinel-vs 16 November 2019 20: 21 New
                    -1
                    Honestly, I am far from historical regalia and from horse breeding knowledge, but Lannan Shi's arguments look more convincing than opponents.
                    1. Yaik Cossack
                      Yaik Cossack 16 November 2019 23: 37 New
                      +3
                      You don’t even know that you are still far from a lot, since you don’t understand the difference between the words “realities” and “regalia”))))

                      If the argument for the truth of the existence of the Genghis Khan power is some interpretation by Fomenkovets of the texts of veterinarians of horsemen and horse traders published under the name of the illiterate (wrote with spelling errors) Marshal Budyonny, as well as the empty stream of poorly structured consciousness of Madame Hippologist, then spending time on your education is counterproductive.

                      Why are you reading the author’s article if you are sure that the Mongols were not there, since they could not quickly ride horses, and Russia was not there either, Batu is Batya, he is Caesar, he is Columbus, he is Peter the Great, the dead as a result of the atomic war of the Tatars among themselves))))))
                      I dare no longer interfere with such highly learned people.
                    2. Sentinel-vs
                      Sentinel-vs 17 November 2019 07: 44 New
                      +4
                      You would rather than read emoticons, like a schoolboy, read carefully what they write. I meant precisely the regalia with which you poke your interlocutors, they say a professional historian.
                      The arguments for me are precisely the arguments, and not the baseless accusations of misunderstanding and putting up the labels of false synchronizers, Fomenkovites, etc.
                      From the side, your remarks for the most part carry the message - It is customary to interpret the history of those events, and all those who do it differently cannot do this! Because it is so accepted !!!
                      And finally, do not try to read my mind, you can’t. You do not know what I think about the Mongols, about Russia, etc., but again you are arranging some kind of clowning with smiles, comrade professional historian.
                    3. Yaik Cossack
                      Yaik Cossack 17 November 2019 12: 13 New
                      +4
                      So you just see the arguments, but where you see you don’t understand))))))
                      Madame essentially writes - the Mongolian horse is weak and slow, it won’t raise a warrior, Budyonny also said that these horses were unsuitable for cavalry, there was no feed for Mongols in Russia, so there was no Mongol campaign in Russia.
                      By the way, all this has been refuted by facts and calculations many times.
                      I answer Madame - what about the Cossacks of some of our troops? They safely rode and fought on the same small and slow horses in the 19th century, to the railways. What about the Ural, Orenburg, Siberian and Transbaikal Cossacks? Transbaikal residents are all Mongolian. In the archives there is data on the equestrian composition.
                      In response - boo boo boo apiary, snow on the ass, etc. That is a departure from the topic.
                      God be with you of course. You probably won’t understand again, but I don’t care.
                      Well, they made a good laugh about professionalism. When you treat your teeth, then you will go to a professional? Or a vet, but an expert on Mongolian horses?
                      So, historical science is also a profession. It takes a long time to learn and to know a lot.
                      By the way, in your answer, excuse me, you again showed a weak acquaintance with the Russian language. Calling myself a historian, I simply indicated my profession. But just the regalia - awards, scientific titles, etc. - I have not a word about them))) I’m not going to list them to you.
                      Do not flatter yourself, your thoughts are of little interest to me. Yes, you didn’t state them on this issue, but only said that the forum’s participant’s discussions “seem” more correct to you. It may also “seem” to you that the earth is flat, but what do I think about health)))
                      I’m writing more likely not for you, but for those who can think logically.
                      Novochronology, as a phenomenon, has long lived not according to the laws of logical knowledge, but according to the principles of a religious sect.
                    4. Lannan Shi
                      Lannan Shi 17 November 2019 15: 44 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
                      I answer Madame - what about the Cossacks of some of our troops? They safely rode and fought on the same small and slow horses in the XNUMXth century, to the railways. What about the Ural, Orenburg, Siberian and Transbaikal Cossacks? Transbaikal residents are all Mongolian.

                      Rave. Heavy. Photo Transbaikal and Ussuri. Oh, and the Orenburgers. Find the Mongol.





                      Transbaikal fish are present. Yes. Just do not give them as a Mongol. Transbaikal, on average, 10 cm higher and much more massive. It is even heavier than the Kyrgyz, flush with the New Kyrgyz breed. The classic hussar horse does not reach 40-50 kilos, and is almost twice as heavy as the Mongols.
                      Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
                      So, historical science is also a profession. It takes a long time to learn and to know a lot.

                      What nafig knowledge? So, to say that they say a Mongolian weighing 230-240 kilos, and a zayalka of 400, is the same thing, and about the knowledge tryndat? For you, apparently, the Renault FT with the T-80 are twins and brothers. 2 caterpillars, one gun each, and the rest are small parts.
                    5. Operator
                      Operator 17 November 2019 16: 07 New
                      +7
                      Quote: Lannan Shi
                      Mongolian weighing 230-240 kilos

                      Type of donkey laughing

                    6. Rusland
                      Rusland 17 November 2019 16: 24 New
                      -1
                      Quote: Operator
                      Quote: Lannan Shi
                      Mongolian weighing 230-240 kilos

                      Type of donkey laughing


                      Give the lady a dissertation to write, do not be so cool. yes
                    7. Lannan Shi
                      Lannan Shi 17 November 2019 16: 48 New
                      +4
                      Quote: Rusland
                      Give the lady a thesis

                      Will not work. I have an anti-historical mindset. I can’t take for sources “documents” in which “eyewitnesses” seriously talk about the Volga, which flows into the Black Sea, Siberia, werewolves, floods in the deserts of Mongolia, khans of their warriors for breakfast toasting, khan’s wives, eating shit, and the like nonsense. If chew, this is a very short excerpt from what is presented as one of the main descriptions of the "Empire of the Mongols."
                      I take this work as a fantasy, very base, and outstanding it for historical documents ... As not quite adequate, or completely unscrupulous people. So ... Without me such dissertations.
                    8. Operator
                      Operator 17 November 2019 20: 27 New
                      +7
                      Lannan Shi - my photo is in your support.
                2. ver_
                  ver_ 17 November 2019 17: 59 New
                  +5
                  ..I have happened to watch a newsreel about Sukhe Bator, a national hero of the MPR .. There were like Mongols jumping from a hill .. This sight is not for the faint of heart - a group of dangers in the dust - without saddles and stirrups (hoop) with straight legs (compasses) almost on the ground with their feet they depicted * lava * .. This can only be seen in a bad dream ... Who cares, you can search it on the Internet ..- documentary footage ..
              3. Yaik Cossack
                Yaik Cossack 17 November 2019 16: 53 New
                0
                Yes, I agree, you have nonsense, and heavy))))

                Based on some photos from the network, your thesis is impossible to prove. The photos probably date back to the beginning of the 20 century, when long-term improvement of the breed began to affect. The War Department was constantly raising requirements for horse growth, trying to unify the appearance of Cossacks with regular cavalry. So the Cossacks had to buy such at their own expense. Officers generally received horses at the expense of the army and bought them at factories. So with the help of veterinary medicine and random photos you do not refute the complex of historical sources))))

                Nor can you prove the differences between the natural Buryat horses of the Transbaikal Cossacks and the Mongol.
                And there is also archival data about the Ural Cossacks. Reports on how, from the point of view of regular cavalry, poor and undersized equestrian composition. ))))

                But I, as a well-mannered person, will no longer waste my time on such a “discussion” when you cannot answer in essence. Remain convinced that there were no equestrian campaigns of the Mongols in Russia and collect the pluses from the same stubborn ones))))

                Yes, tell the mathematician Fomenko that the multiplication table is also falsified by the Scaligerian enemies of Russia-Horde))
              4. Lannan Shi
                Lannan Shi 17 November 2019 17: 49 New
                +4
                Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
                But I, as a well-mannered person, will no longer waste my time on such a “discussion” when you cannot answer in essence.

                The answer is essentially given to you. Photos on Transbaikal. You can’t confirm your conjectures about the Cossacks who fought in megalashades, a little larger than a large mastiff. Words - I am a historian, as I see it, personally for me is not an argument.
            3. Yaik Cossack
              Yaik Cossack 17 November 2019 16: 59 New
              +3
              All those interested can even see on the Internet that there are no significant differences between the Buryat (Transbaikal) and Mongolian traditional breeds. Both are the most undersized.
            4. Golovan Jack
              Golovan Jack 17 November 2019 20: 56 New
              -2
              Quote: Lannan Shi
              Words - I am a historian, as I see it, personally for me is not an argument

              Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
              All interested can see ...

              Come on ... argue with an amateur, let alone with a militant amateur ... I know many ways to spend time more useful yes
  • Golovan Jack
    Golovan Jack 17 November 2019 14: 22 New
    0
    Quote: Lannan Shi
    Now, if he rode around the kitchen, on a stool, in a raid on the refrigerator, like a historian pro, then yes

    But they also say that arrogance is the second happiness.

    And here I am reading this commentary, and I understand that for some - it is the first ... and the only thing, the campaign belay
    1. Rusland
      Rusland 17 November 2019 15: 03 New
      +1
      Quote: Golovan Jack
      Quote: Lannan Shi
      Now, if he rode around the kitchen, on a stool, in a raid on the refrigerator, like a historian pro, then yes

      But they also say that arrogance is the second happiness.

      And here I am reading this commentary, and I understand that for some - it is the first ... and the only thing, the campaign belay

      Greetings, Friend hi Here, the ladies need a different approach, even if it is of eastern origin supposedly, but let's say classic. yes According to Gogol, it sounds like this: “All the women are witches, and those who are older are certainly witches” (“Viy”). smile
    2. Terenin
      Terenin 17 November 2019 20: 17 New
      +2
      Quote: Rusland
      "All the women are witches, and the older ones are certainly witches."

      hi
      Want a female warmth? winked Burn the witch! am

  • swyatoslav
    swyatoslav 20 November 2019 13: 53 New
    +2
    Class! Now (the only remaining) opponent will begin to be rude, curse what the world is worth doubting the official history (the arguments have ended), but can’t admit it .....
    Lannan Shi - Well done.
  • Icelord
    Icelord April 22 2020 15: 38 New
    -1
    Oh, and ignorance, if loud ears would wilt
    1. Icelord
      Icelord April 22 2020 15: 39 New
      -1
      This is a very "smart" girl designed comment.
  • Sadam
    Sadam 16 November 2019 02: 38 New
    +4
    Shoigu and Subedeus)))) this is parallel .... smiled
  • protoss
    protoss 15 November 2019 12: 58 New
    +3
    Well, he’s also a Uryanch, i.e. like a Tuvinian. for such a small nation, the figure is more than significant, then you will look and make a shoigu bust laughing
  • Edward Vashchenko
    Edward Vashchenko 15 November 2019 11: 23 New
    +7
    In The Legend of Kolovrat, perhaps the most shameful historical film in the history of Russian and Soviet cinema, Fedor Yuryevich bravely fights with the Mongols in front of a transvestite-looking Batu Khan, and his retinue, led by the boyar Yevpata, boldly runs away , leaving the protected person to the mercy of fate.

    I absolutely support, not a film, but a guard.
    1. Sentinel-vs
      Sentinel-vs 15 November 2019 11: 49 New
      +5
      They tried to copy Zach Snyder’s 300 Spartans in style. It turned out the same fantasy.
      1. Edward Vashchenko
        Edward Vashchenko 15 November 2019 14: 39 New
        +5
        It would be better if they didn’t try to copy, until we start creating our own films based on our own patterns, there will be no sense in historical cinema.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 November 2019 19: 58 New
          +4
          Quote: Edward Vashchenko
          It would be better if they didn’t try to copy, until we start creating our own films based on our own patterns, there will be no sense in historical cinema.


          Pancake! Edward, and we have such patterns. For example, And flowers grow on stones.
          1. Edward Vashchenko
            Edward Vashchenko 15 November 2019 23: 02 New
            +1
            I agree, a great movie!
          2. Gaersul
            Gaersul 16 November 2019 13: 56 New
            +1
            Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
            And flowers grow on the stones.

            It seems all the same as trees.
      2. VLR
        15 November 2019 16: 52 New
        +6
        The creators of 300 Spartans Leonid didn’t make a mentally disabled person, for which, as it turned out now, they should be thanked.
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          Edward Vashchenko 15 November 2019 16: 55 New
          +4
          That you correctly noticed - to the point hi
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 15 November 2019 15: 00 New
      +4
      Quote: Edward Vashchenko
      not a movie, but a guard

      As well as "Viking", "Skiff" and other attempts to remove something on a medieval theme. The best movie about the Middle Ages is "Game of Thrones". laughing And then, only the first three seasons. request
      1. Edward Vashchenko
        Edward Vashchenko 15 November 2019 15: 03 New
        +6
        Michael,
        Oh sure!
        From the last series I like The Last Kingdom, maybe there are a lot of stretches, but painfully colorful are given with tinted eyes))) and horses covered with sheep’s skins, like modern English Horse Guards, if karate hadn’t fought ...
      2. Hantengri
        Hantengri 15 November 2019 21: 02 New
        +1
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        "Game of Thrones". And then, only the first three seasons.

        Five. Those. while Martin was advising.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 15 November 2019 11: 46 New
    +6
    Valery, why in the article there is not a word about the battle on r. Voronezh? Did you find this event so insignificant?
    The fact is that after the execution of Fedor at Batu headquarters, the Ryazan princes, without waiting for the Mongols to approach their city, led the squads into the field and gave Bat a field battle.
    Very beautifully about this is written in "The Tale of the Ruin of Ryazan"
    And he went against the wicked king Batu, and they met him near the borders of Ryazan, and attacked him, and began to fight with him firmly and courageously, and was cross section of evil and terrible. Many strong Batyev regiments fell. And King Batu saw that the Ryazan force was beating firmly and courageously, and was frightened. But who will stand against the wrath of God! The Baty’s forces were great and irresistible; one Ryazan fought with a thousand, and two with ten thousand. And the great prince saw the slaughter of his brother, Prince Davyd Ingvarevich, and exclaimed in the grief of his soul: “O my dear brother! Prince Davyd, our brother, drank our cup before us, but will we not drink this cup! ”And they moved from horse to horse and began to fight hard; through many strong regiments Batyevs drove through, bravely and courageously beating, so that all Tatar regiments marvel at the fortress and courage of the Ryazan army. And their strong Tatar regiments barely defeated them. The noble Grand Duke Yuri Ingvarevich, his brother Prince Davyd Ingvarevich of Murom, his brother Prince Gleb Ingvarevich Kolomensky, their brother Vsevolod Pronsky and many local princes and governors strong and the army: the daredevils and frolics of Ryazan were killed. All the same, they died and drank a single mortal chalice. None of them turned back, but all died dead together. God made all these things sin for our sake.

    Is this battle left out of the article simply because it did not fit into the concept of "cowardly humility" of the Ryazan princes?
    1. VLR
      15 November 2019 11: 51 New
      +4
      Well, why, I mention this:
      "Having defeated the Ryazan troops that came out against them in a border battle (three princes died in it ..."
      I just don’t want to retell everything, duplicating textbooks.
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 15 November 2019 11: 55 New
      +6
      But it is true that the battle on the Voronezh River is less frequently mentioned.

      Is it because of the subsequent confrontation between Moscow and Ryazan?
      1. SokolfromRussia
        SokolfromRussia 15 November 2019 12: 30 New
        +2
        It is called into question by a number of researchers, since in most chronicles it is not mentioned and is known mainly from the "Tale of the Ruin of Ryazan Batu". Well, the quality of modern textbooks is a separate issue.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 15 November 2019 13: 47 New
          +2
          Quote: SokolfromRussia
          It is called into question by a number of researchers, since most chronicles do not mention

          I agree, there are certain doubts. But most researchers still believe that the battle still happened. Many of the details of the Tale are literally embellished, but the factual basis itself most likely took place.
          1. SokolfromRussia
            SokolfromRussia 15 November 2019 13: 53 New
            +6
            Yes, Likhachev noted that the author of the Tale had at his disposal the later lost Ryazan annals, fragments of which were preserved in the chronicles of Veliky Novgorod. Therefore, the texture in the "Tale" is quite accurate. And the details that he did not know, drew from folk traditions. Apparently, from here there are mistakes with the names of the princes participating in the events.
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 15 November 2019 14: 28 New
              0
              Quote: SokolfromRussia
              mistakes with the names of princes

              Yes, in the Tale, some princes are named among those who died in Voronezh, while other chronicles note their death in other places - in Ryazan and near Kolomna. I don’t remember specific names now.
              1. SokolfromRussia
                SokolfromRussia 15 November 2019 14: 29 New
                +6
                Not only. It mentions Prince of Murom Davyd Yuryevich, who actually died in 1228, and the death of Oleg Ingvarevich is mentioned, although he was captured and died in 1252.
    3. SokolfromRussia
      SokolfromRussia 15 November 2019 12: 35 New
      +3
      Obviously, the Ryazan princes were quite brave and independent. They realized that the Horde would not be able to defeat one on one, they sent for help and tried to buy time by negotiation.
  • alexey alexeyev_2
    alexey alexeyev_2 15 November 2019 13: 12 New
    +2
    I’m looking at the illustrations and I don’t see the difference between the narrow-eyed cheekbone Mongols and their victims. Both of them, judging by their faces, are Slavs .. Even the details of the armor and weapons match
    1. SokolfromRussia
      SokolfromRussia 15 November 2019 13: 44 New
      +5
      Because these miniatures were drawn centuries after the invasion. And their author hardly had an idea how these same Mongols look. In addition, he might not have set himself the task of reflecting in detail their appearance, etc.
      1. alexey alexeyev_2
        alexey alexeyev_2 15 November 2019 14: 42 New
        +4
        Mdya ... The proverb "lying like an eyewitness" is not one hundred years old
      2. alexey alexeyev_2
        alexey alexeyev_2 16 November 2019 08: 29 New
        +4
        But the author, describing and drawing, relied on later chronicles and records. He didn’t invent it all from his head. And look at the very first miniature. The warriors were there on horseback with characteristic hairstyles-settled horses. Such a outfit was worn by Svyatoslav and later Cossacks .. .At the same time, the brodniks living on the Don are mentioned in the annals .. Somehow they quickly found a common language with the devils who came from nowhere. Yes, and the Hungarian king Bela asking for help in the attack of Batu and listing the peoples included in this army as it did not mention the Mongols .. All listed and the Mongols hesitated ..
    2. Trapperxnumx
      Trapperxnumx 15 November 2019 14: 15 New
      +6

      and this is how Lenin is portrayed. And this is a completely modern image, when the original is certainly known. For me, so here he is a spilled Chinese. But this does not change its origin, right?
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 15 November 2019 13: 26 New
    +4
    By the way, Valery, what is this strange genealogical tablet at the beginning of the article? I wonder who its author is, because it is teeming with errors.
    For example, it states that the rulers of the Golden Horde are the descendants of Batu, and the rulers of the Chagatai ulus are the descendants of Ugedei. The descendants of Berke ruled the Golden Horde (the Batuid dynasty ceased at Ulagchi), and the descendants of Chagatai (up to the point of complete disintegration), up to its complete collapse, ruled the Chagatai ulus.
    And more.
    Nevertheless, it seems to me that the way you describe the relationship between Russia and the Mongol Empire after the invasion at the beginning of the 40's does not quite correspond to reality.
    Firstly, the first mentions of tribute in the annals appear in the 1245, that is, precisely by this time, the relations of the Mongols and Russia took the form of vassals.
    Secondly, Nevryuyev’s army of 1253 was considered by modern scholars to be the result of not the intrigues of Alexander, but the policies of his brother Andrei, who refused to conduct a census. As a result, the census was nevertheless carried out, but this disobedience to Russia was worth a lot of blood. Plus, to control the collection of tribute to Russia came imperial (not Horde) Basque. However, you did not mention that already in 1263, as a result of several uprisings, these Basques were killed in many places. Since they represented the interests of the empire, rather than the ulus of Jochi, whose rulers were in opposition to the Great Khan, this uprising did not have serious consequences for Russia, but the princes were again entrusted with collecting taxes.
    Thirdly, you write:
    Russian losses were great, but their armies did not cease to exist, others took the place of the dead princes, from the same dynasty, rich and strong Novgorod remained unharmed.

    I will not criticize your use of the term "army", but I want to note that the armed forces of Russia at that time consisted of a few, but highly professional soldiers, whose training was very lengthy and very expensive. So, these soldiers in the battles in Voronezh, near Kolomna and the City were almost completely knocked out. There was no one to replace them.
    In fact, only the squads of Yaroslav and Alexander, plus the city regiment of Novgorod, survived in the north-west of Russia. The Smolensk principality by that time had already completely weakened under the permanent onslaught of Lithuania, the South Russian principalities had exhausted themselves in mutual strife even earlier, before the invasion. Losses in people among the peasant population, whatever they were (although they were very high, according to modern estimates about 15%), could not have any effect on the manning of the armed forces.
    I’m here in my fervor, while I was only criticizing you, completely forgetting the principle "if you want to criticize, first praise." smile
    In general, I rather liked the article, at least more than the previous one. Despite the fact that I strongly disagree with your derogatory assessment of the personality of Russian princes and their policies in the second half of the 13th century, I believe that your publications are needed in general (with reader comments, of course smile ) are useful.
    1. SokolfromRussia
      SokolfromRussia 15 November 2019 13: 46 New
      +1
      The team of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, as M. B. Eliseev noted in his works, partially died during the defense of Pereslavl-Zalessky and Tver. And Alexander Yaroslavich was a young prince, it is unlikely that his squad was great.
    2. karabass
      karabass 15 November 2019 15: 00 New
      +1
      What is your opinion about skates? do you agree with hooves?
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 15 November 2019 15: 04 New
        +1
        Quote: karabass
        What is your opinion about skates? do you agree with hooves?

        Once again, please, and in a form more accessible to my understanding.
        1. karabass
          karabass 15 November 2019 15: 07 New
          +2
          According to your comments, I realized that you are fond of the history of the ancient Mongols and know a lot from it. I thought that maybe you are also fond of the history of the Golden Horde like me. I wanted to discuss the Zolotordyn hogs and skates if you know what it is, if not, I apologize
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 15 November 2019 15: 10 New
            +1
            No, unknown, but interested. So what is it?
            1. karabass
              karabass 15 November 2019 15: 21 New
              +3
              Historians still argue about skates about their purpose (excavated in great numbers, polished tibia sawn in half with 2 holes) - the purpose is unknown. It looks like ice skates, they even say they tried to skate on ice, it turned out Kopylushki - the inhabitants of the Golden Horde wore sets of several pieces on their belts, historians believe that to clean the ears (they have many types and shapes, the sizes are the same) But I probably made a discovery - they are not at all for ear cleaning, but unfortunately it is impossible to prove my version, as well as to refute - there are no documents (at all)
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 15 November 2019 15: 58 New
                +1
                I know the hoof under the name "hoof".
                No, unfortunately, I was not interested in this topic, so I cannot be called a worthy interlocutor in it. no
    3. vladcub
      vladcub 15 November 2019 19: 54 New
      +2
      Mikhail, to you ++ (one stands, and the other in advance): with two hands I sign up for your company
  • Seal
    Seal 15 November 2019 16: 00 New
    -10
    And as soon as people are not tired of pouring from empty to empty?
    Shagys Khan, or in our pronunciation, Genghis Khan, is any Khan living (ruling) east of the place on which the observer stands.
    But Batys Khan (Batu, Batu Khan) is any khan living (ruling) west of the place where the observer stands.
    If the observer moves west, then the khan who was Batys Khan yesterday for the observer (since he was west of the observation point) today has become Shagys-Khan, since he has become east of the observation point.
    And for Europe - they are all exclusively Shagys Khan (Genghis Khan). Therefore, I had to sculpt from the western khans (batys-khans) a certain "grandson of Genghis Khan" - Batu.

    Initially, the “Tatar yoke” was an invention of Poles Catholics who sought to present Poland as such a last outpost of European civilization in Eastern Europe. Behind which there are already half-wild barbarians who have just crawled out from under the "Tatar yoke." Then, when during the Napoleonic forces, Europeans saw real Tatars in Europe and Paris and were surprised that these Tatars - just the same Europeans as they themselves - European historians quickly began to transform the "Tatar yoke" first into the Tatar-Mongolian, then into "Mongol-Tatar", and now often even we ourselves are limited to one "Mongolian". And the Khalkha ethnic group was appointed to the position of the Mongols. ..
    Why was the term "Mongols" chosen, more precisely, "Mughals"? Most likely because at that time - at the end of the 18th-beginning of the 19th centuries, everyone on the lips in Europe had the richest Great Mughals, who ruled then in India and considered themselves (like the Chinese) - the lords of Asia. And Europeans knew that the Great Mongols were aliens in India. So they decided that the ancestors of the Great Moguls present at that time, before coming to India, could well have been the bearers of the yoke in our country, in Russia. :)))
    And when the Europeans finally got into that part of the territory of China, which is now the sovereign country of Mongolia, and began to ask the local hulk about "their great ancestor Genghis Khan" - to the disappointment of the Europeans it turned out that the local hulk had no idea about any Genghis Khan . Then the "white people" began to enlighten the "unreasonable hulk", beautifully telling what a great ancestor they had.
    The hulk was certainly surprised, but they accepted the version with the great ancestor. Well, who does not want to have great ancestors? And now the hulk already really consider themselves the descendants of “those Mongols” and can tell everything about Genghis Khan. The main thing is that more tourists come. From the Genghis Khan brand, the commercialized hulk-Mongols have already learned how to make a very good gesheft. There, even coins are stamped. hi
    Likewise, when the Swedes had to designate the rights to “Kemsku parish”, the Swede Peter Petreus created the theory that the Vikings, who are Swedes, were called to rule in Russia once. Well, our liberals, (they were at all times) already looking at the West, adored these theories with admiration that yes, here we are, silver-footed, have been under the yoke for 300 years, but before that we could not figure it out among ourselves - the Varangians had to from overseas call to rule us. Ugh ..
    This liberal anti-people and anti-Russian version of the allegedly once former Tatar-Mongol yoke is designed to justify the possibility of external foreign governance in Russia. The pro-Western propagandists have inspired the yoke and still inspire our people that they say there is nothing to worry about, they say it was even worse in the history of Russia - but they survived the same. Liberasts with foam at our mouths convince us that they say that “Lapotnaya authoritarian Russia” needs to live under the external control of the “democratic enlightened West” and that they say “Only under this external control of the West we can grow wiser”.
    They inspire day and night that there is nothing to worry about in this (external control of the West), because we already had a period of external control, when the “Mongol-Tatars” allegedly conquered us. And even a "yoke" imposed. And we supposedly lived for 300 years under the “yoke” !! But then we wiser from the yoke, gathered our courage and strength, and threw off this “yoke”.
    So that you (the people), the main thing is not to worry, you people calmly take the lead over the enlightened civilized West. And there sometime under this sensitive guidance of the WEST everything will come back to normal with us. May be. In 200-300 years. As then" negative .
    No, gentlemen, liberals !! Nothing in itself will come back to normal if we ourselves do not take action now. Our land cannot be given to anyone. And it is all the more impossible to go under the external control of the West. In fact, our ancestors did not bow to any Tatar-Mongols and did not go under their “yoke”. In none of the birch bark letters have the words: "Tatar", "Mongol", Mongol-Tatar ";" Tatar-Mongol, Baskak "," Khan, "Great Khan", "Horde", "yoke", “Batu,” etc. But the current liberals, relying on Karamzin, spit in the souls of our ancestors, and did not suspect that they were “under the yoke.” stop
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 15 November 2019 19: 37 New
      +3
      "the words:" Tatar "," Mongol "do not occur naturally, then the expression:" filthy "was used
    2. vladcub
      vladcub 15 November 2019 19: 43 New
      +2
      But is Stalin also a liberator? After all, Stalin respected Peter the Great. If Stalin had a negative attitude towards Peter the Great, FIG would have appeared a book: "Peter 1"
    3. Hantengri
      Hantengri 15 November 2019 21: 41 New
      -3
      It’s so good that the Internet was sent to you, in the ward!
  • tanit
    tanit 15 November 2019 17: 52 New
    0
    Tell me, and using photographs from the 21st century, you can really recreate the steppe of the 13th century (this is the last article in the cycle) Seriously? Is Evpatiy Colorath a real person? And Mercury Smolensky, then too?
    Arabs can be trusted, there are no Russian chronicles. And vice versa, when the author is beneficial. Ingenious.
    Ahem ...
    And, the author, the creators of the films Skif and Viking, their
    "creation" was called "historical"
    The legend of Kolovrat does not pretend to be historic. Heroic Fantasy.
    With respect.
    1. tanit
      tanit 15 November 2019 18: 03 New
      -1
      And, by the way, In The Legend of .. A beautiful Russian city is shown. And beautiful people living in it. For the first time in the dismal squalor of all the other films, the historian a la russe. (Yaroslav, Viking, Vladimir) However, this is just my opinion. The historian knows better.
      With respect.
  • tanit
    tanit 15 November 2019 18: 39 New
    -1
    So, I catch the first cons. That's good.)))
    I will assume that from the fans of the "beautiful" and without any doubt the best "historical" Wings and Scythians?))
    If from supporters of cognition from photographs, it’s not funny.
    With respect.
  • tanit
    tanit 15 November 2019 18: 47 New
    -1
    Continue the fun?
    "From Pronsk, Murom, Kolomna. Three brothers went to save Ryazan" ...
    Heroically. Handsomely.
    Poems have already become - a "scientific approach"?)))
    UHHUZH, and for a long time ?!)))
  • tanit
    tanit 15 November 2019 18: 56 New
    0
    I will continue the fun. (with goose water-what a styrofoam axes)
    Zolotarevka. Under the present city of Penza. There someone fought to the last, evil and desperately against the Mongols.
    Come up with Evpathy)))
    1. tanit
      tanit 15 November 2019 18: 58 New
      0
      OH .. Introduce the "truth")))
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 15 November 2019 19: 47 New
      +2
      How can Zolotaryovka be connected with Evpathy Kolovrat?
  • colotun
    colotun 15 November 2019 19: 11 New
    -4
    The fourth century AD - Attila conquers Western Europe. Atilla's banners depict an equilateral cross and a golden double-headed eagle.
    The twelfth century AD - Genghis Khan and Batu conquer Western Europe.
    The historical emblem of the Golden Horde is a golden double-headed eagle (only without three crowns). Also, the golden double-headed eagle is the family coat of arms of Genghis Khan.
    The Russian Empire was created from the East, and not from the West.
    What did the specific Russian princes do during the period of feudal fragmentation in Russia (11-12 centuries)?
    They slaughtered each other in the struggle for power, ruthlessly ruining the neighboring lands and Russian cities.
    When the Mongol-Tatars united them, they forbade them to fight with each other, told them: - "You are now one country, one people." And after several generations, Russian people in Central Russia ceased to regard their neighbors as enemies.
    In Ivan the Terrible, the blood of the Rurikovich and the khans of the Golden Horde (through his mother, Elena Glinskaya) was combined, and this explosive incendiary mixture splashed out in the form of a passionary union of the three pillars of Russian statehood - the union of Slavs, Turks and Finno-Ugrians = the Moscow, Vladimir, Suzdal principalities were united , Novgorod and the Golden Horde = Great Empire revived in a new guise again.
    Orthodox prayer ends with the word AMEN, Catholic prayer ends with the word OMEN, Muslim prayer ends with the word EMEN. Also known is the Indian Buddhist mantra OM-MAN.
    And there is the Turkic word AMAN = have mercy and mercy. And these are not the only traces of the Turkic origin of the Christian faith (reference to Academician Oparin).
    And there was also a great medieval empire that conquered including China (QIN dynasty = Golden Dynasty) and India (Great Mughals).
    It is interesting that on the territory of our country of Russia, approximately within the borders of the former Soviet Union, there were five empires: - the first empire was at Attila (4-5 century AD), the second empire was at Genghis Khan (11-12 century AD) , the third empire is the Romanovs, the fourth empire is the Soviet Union and the fifth empire is the Russian Federation now.
    The Russian nation came from the merger of three different nations - Slavs, Turks (including Tatars) and Finno-Ugrians.
    And for one and a half thousand years on the territory of our great united country people of different nationalities live, as one people.
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 15 November 2019 19: 28 New
      +2
      colotun, but you do not confuse the Golden Horde and Byzantium?
      Remember: "Moscow is the third Rome and the fourth not to be"
  • vladcub
    vladcub 15 November 2019 19: 18 New
    +3
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    In principle, there could not be Genghis blood, since Jochi is a Merkit apprx. Borte gave birth to him while she was in captivity.

    Another question is who is dad: a legitimate husband or an unknown warrior.
    Women are cunning on this score: in the 21st century. our brother is "bred" easily, but then ....
  • Yaik Cossack
    Yaik Cossack 15 November 2019 19: 46 New
    -2
    The author pays tribute to the anti-scientific Gumilevschina, idealizing the steppes and demonizing the Russians. Did the Mongols kill the Russian Ryazan ambassadors? Well, nope .... the author exclaims without proof, well, they couldn’t demand wives, this is a simple misunderstanding. Well, when the Russians killed the Mongolian ambassadors (not noble) - a crime, treachery, then they themselves are to blame for everything.

    Gumilyov was a talented writer, but a forger. He, after all the troubles of his family, after the Soviet concentration camp, hated the Soviets, so in defiance of officialdom he began to praise the Mongols in every possible way. Well, when Turkic nationalism took shape in the USSR, Gumilev came in handy.

    The Mongolian state was parasitic in nature, lived by robbery and exploitation of the conquered peoples. China and Central Asia in general were subjected to total destruction, almost genocide. According to historians, the victims of the Mongol wars of conquest are monstrous for that time - about 10-15 million people. So Genghis is medieval Hitler))))
  • vladcub
    vladcub 15 November 2019 19: 59 New
    +3
    Quote: alexey alexeyev_2

    Purchase

    Naturally, after all, Genghis Khan was only able to twist the tails of horses, and all these invasions of ruin are ancient Russians. It seems so Samsonov tells?
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 15 November 2019 20: 35 New
    +2
    My respect, Valery! Wonderful cycle! I read with great pleasure! You will excuse me for distorting your last name, it's not me, it's T9, be he happy (((((, on the new phone.
  • Astra wild
    Astra wild 15 November 2019 22: 20 New
    -2
    Valery, I read your story with great pleasure. I am pleased that you did not leave us for a long time.
    I do not possess such erudition as, for example, Mikhail "Trilobit" V.O. and some others, but the remark is based on logic.
    "There is no one to tell about the intricacies of Mongolian etiquette," and why don't you take into account the merchants of that time? Of course, the merchants could not be present at the table by the khan, but they could know the basics of Mongolian etiquette, and that already means a lot.
    Why not suggest a provocation? You yourself wrote that: “Genghisides quarreled among themselves,” and why not suppose that Guyuk, Buri, or one of their retinue, could have hit the Russian quietly, and he heartily moved the Mongol in the presence of Batuhan. Or some other provocation. After all, the Mongols already had an idea of ​​the Russians and their customs. It seems to me that my version is believable
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 16 November 2019 01: 49 New
      0
      I apologize, but this already looks like a variant of children's historical jokes. Guyuk Khan, putting the bandwagon - this is almost a finished plot for "Jumble".

      Really tough time. But ambassadors are always at risk: incarnate until Obreskov, or our time - also an ambassador to Turkey.

      Only a change of scenery.
      1. Astra wild
        Astra wild 16 November 2019 12: 09 New
        0
        “Guyuk Khan putting the bandwagon”, but read the author: “Guyuk or Storm wishing to end the negotiations” I just expressed my vision based on what I read
  • Bar2
    Bar2 16 November 2019 09: 44 New
    +2
    here is the plan of the city of Beijing for 1752. Philip Bouache. It is written that this is the Tartar and Chinese city of Beijing.
    Question to Valery Ryzhov, where did the tartars come from in the middle of the 18th century? According to history, China has long been conquered by some sort of Manchus i.e. Tungus.




    https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b7200296z/f13.item.r=ville%20tartare.zoom
    1. Bar2
      Bar2 16 November 2019 10: 09 New
      +2
      or here is the 1842 map of Marmochi Francesco, we see that on the continent there is a Tartar manche or mancho, what is it?
      And the sea is called the Tartar Sea, now it is for some reason called the Japanese. From this Tartar Sea there is only the Tartar Strait between Sakhalin-Sokolin Aul and the continent.
      The same question to Ryzhov, what kind of Tartar names are on the maps of the 19th century?



      https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~304679~90075091:Asia---Divisa-nei-suoi-principali-s?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No#
  • GTYCBJYTH2021
    GTYCBJYTH2021 16 November 2019 09: 54 New
    +5
    Surprisingly, the Mongols lost their writing .... the mines in which they extracted iron for sabers, where they were ...... They were wild in KOMECHNIKOV .....
    1. Yaik Cossack
      Yaik Cossack 16 November 2019 14: 17 New
      +2
      Why have you lost? Old Mongolian writing exists, there is extensive medieval literature on it. True, the USSR forced the MPR to switch to the Cyrillic alphabet, but this is a purely political history.
      Iron was also smelted; there are archaeological finds of Kritz. Yes, and bought blanks from neighbors. What is the problem?
      1. GTYCBJYTH2021
        GTYCBJYTH2021 16 November 2019 14: 33 New
        +2
        Iron in what places, cities of Mongolia melted, everything WORKED, perhaps ...... Problems and no ...
  • The comment was deleted.
  • 1970mk
    1970mk 16 November 2019 16: 33 New
    -2
    The next time the Mongols came to Russia only in 1252 (Nevryuev’s army to the northeast, the Kuremsa army, and then Burundai to the west), and that was only because the adopted son of Batu Khan, Alexander Yaroslavich, informed him about the anti-Mongol the intentions of brother Andrew and Daniel Galitsky.

    Great .... Again, Alexander "Nevsky" laid his life for the Russian land ...
  • Nikolai Korovin
    Nikolai Korovin 16 November 2019 19: 36 New
    -2
    I read comments here, I read ... And I think so-so: Has there ever been any kind of Russia-Russia? Doubt took direct, so that I fail in tartarara! (Or maybe in Tartaria-Tataria. In Yakutia, reluctance - the error is cold). And then I think so: no, if I’m here in Russia now, so I guess I’ve been there before. And then all of a sudden it became somehow even alarming. Here, understand, you are a holy noble prince of some kind - and he, it turns out, is the closest relative of Genghis Khan, who, it turns out, is also directly Presbyter John, whose kingdom there the western geographers at that time indicated where Karakoram according to the Sovetsky version is. Wow, I think Yoshkin cat! Well this is necessary! And our haplogroup is Turkish. Hence the conclusion: we all sign up for the service of the Turkish Sultan. But the trouble is: the Young Turks overthrew him in 1920, or something, they brought Ataturk to themselves - Father of the Turks, therefore. So until 1920, there were no Turks, ponyash, in fact. They themselves said that he was Ata to them? They said. And Erdogan is not a sultan for you, an elected person. So the transition to Turkish citizenship, I think, is canceled.
    And what? John - Genghis Khan! The resemblance is undoubted! Fomenko, I think, will seize on this matter. Genghis Khan is the same Presbyter John! By the way, I won’t figure it out somehow: who writes Genghis Khan through the "z" with a hyphen, who Genghis Khan through "s" without the hyphen! And someone does the opposite! Right, how?
  • Grandfather Mansour
    Grandfather Mansour 18 November 2019 19: 14 New
    0
    Good day! The author is very rahmat and respect!
    A few general comments on comments.
    As for the controversial issues in miniatures: as noted above, they were drawn later, not from nature and to the best of the creators. In the Same Series, Old Russian Icons depicting Jesus entering Jerusalem on horned donkey. And where would a Russian monk-icon painter of the XI-XII centuries be able to see a donkey alive?
    Secondly, the horses of the Mongols. Are they identical modern Mongolian horse medieval horses the Mongols?
    In addition, during the campaign, especially in winter, the Mongols had to suffer horseback losses, which means replenishing with horses seized from local horses, which were far from "Mongolian", but local breeds.
    By thin. literature about that era: definitely not Jan’s trilogy. It was written during the Great Patriotic War and served primarily the cause of patriotic education and not historical enlightenment. Balashov, IMHO, suitability.
    For Mikhail Chernigov. The character is epic. As the Mongols approached, he "made a sea bass" to Europe, there he drowned for a campaign against the Mongols, and then there was enough tension to return to Chernigov and go to a meeting with Batu. Yes, his anti-Mongol reputation played against him more than even a refusal to undergo cleansing procedures. Canonization of it, IMHO, stupidly political situation of the XVI century.
    Such a question to all participants in the discussion: what was the fate of the Volga cities of the Vladimir-Suzdal land (Yaroslavl and others). In 1238 - were taken by the Mongols and ruined or surrendered without a fight?
    Sincerely.
  • Willow Nikolay
    Willow Nikolay 21 November 2019 11: 37 New
    +2
    ... an article, like all articles on this subject, where they never wondered how Genghis Khan generally got to the borders of Russia, from his Mongolia?
    In Mongolia, no trace of the "economic" prerequisites for creating such an empire was found in the historical layers; there are no beginnings of metallurgy there, without which there is no weapon. And even taking into account that small horses ate half the size of ordinary horses, moving such a mass of cavalry from the steppes of Mongolia to the borders of Russia still required huge supplies of fodder and food, as well as horseshoes with leather goods for cavalry. What road did they go to Russia, where are the traces of the movement of these fighting masses of cavalry, and how many years they walked, and generally look at the map, there are no traces of states due to which they could move such a mass of military cavalry of those times. And if we assume that they were self-propelled, then they would hardly have reached even Central Asia, without a more or less normal route, some mountains, rivers, forests and deserts. Where were you going? According to Xinjiang or southern Siberia? Under such initial conditions, only the remnants of the army would have reached Central Asia, where the locals would simply crush them ...
    It’s clear that for so many years historians have “nursed” this version of history, where almost everything is drawn “by the ears” to the accepted version and how to abandon it now, this is a complete “paragraph”. And yet, for so many years they have been writing about the Battle of Kulikovo, but what’s strange is that they can’t find the place where it happened. Excavations did not give a result about the place of the battle, because there were many soldiers who participated in it, according to the version of our official history, but there are no traces, how can this be? After all, if there was a battle, then there must be traces, it cannot be there, but they were not found ... In general, there are some questions, one more can be added - during the “yoke” a huge number of churches and monasteries were built in Russia this is a fact, it is taken from the registration of these buildings in the documents of the Russian Orthodox Church, and I wonder who built them for what money, but the amounts are not small? How to link this with this version of our history, where there was a Tatar-Mongol yoke? And if you look closely, there are many such inconsistencies, the truth is interesting, and what is official historical science doing then, in my opinion, dissertations are so easily written, tearing apart one another and puffing on importance ...
  • RF man
    RF man 24 November 2019 16: 44 New
    +3
    In the story, “everything is good” with “written sources” - it’s a pity that it is NOT so good with material sources.
    You read about the "heroes of bygone days" and you will find THEM material supply, military production, patency and "material and technical supply" ..
    Now it’s sometimes “you will pass FIGs”, and here TENS of thousands of horsemen maneuver, attack unexpectedly, and even with some “rich booty” convoys. All this in the snowdrifts among forests and streams.
    Perfectly supplied in the campaigns, not only food, but also other "supplies".
    TENS of thousands of people killed in chain mail, helmets, with swords and shields in CHEST fall down and SO century after century ..
    As it comes to the excavation - there, the grave, the grave itself, swords "take away-another" ...
    It is clear that 1000-800-500 years have passed, but during THIS time TONS of "metalware", some kind of "camping utensils" for HUNDREDS of thousands of people ...
    The feeling that after each raid or battle a cleaning company was called up and carefully cleaned in ancient Russia ...
    1. RF man
      RF man 24 November 2019 16: 56 New
      +3
      By the way, no one will tell you - is it possible to read somewhere the study on the "technical support" of the raid?
      With the cost price "in comparable prices", "the amount of fodder, food, the number of carts, etc., etc.
      Maybe already done?
  • RF man
    RF man 24 November 2019 17: 30 New
    +3
    Quote: Lantau
    Is this a highly developed civilization that just yesterday picked up a notebook and pencil?

    So steeper than the Mongols, according to "written sources" were only the legendary Atlanteans. The Mongols were not the only ones to notice - they did not have time to create an invincible style of Mongolian hand-to-hand combat. As for the rest, the complete impression was that they climbed out directly from mother in Malachi, with a saber and a horse, and they did not even need a “young fighter course” - they knew how to do it all at once. From river crossings to the storming of fortress walls.
  • Seal
    Seal 30 November 2019 16: 29 New
    0
    Quote: vladcub
    filthy "
    And what, Pechenegs, Polovtsy, Torques are not enough for you? And actually, in what letter did you see the expression "filthy"?
  • Seal
    Seal 30 November 2019 16: 53 New
    0
    Quote: HanTengri
    In 1812, Napoleon pressed 94 cavalry into Russia.
    The roads leading from the western border of the Russian Empire to Moscow and St. Petersburg were:
    - wide enough, as they would say now, one and a half strip.
    - there were several roads
    - roads passed through settlements
    - Damn, yes the roads were just roads.

    But what happened 800 years ago from Ryazan to Vladimir? Yes, even in forests, in winter conditions, with a daylight hours of 5-6 hours. In addition, it gets dark in the forests even earlier. fool
    Even if the so-called "Mongols" would manage to move along the forest road two in a row, then (taking into account the reserve horse, which we are assured of by "every Mongol") and the interval between the rows of horses, how many kilometers are needed to to accommodate 50 thousand horsemen (100 thousand horses). And I still don’t take even more odious options that supposedly the Mongols still dragged something on the bulls laughing
    For your information:
    Przewalski's horse sizes
    - growth at the withers: about 130 (cm);
    - mass: about 250 (kg);
    - body length: about 230 (cm).

    So the horse is 2,3 meters long. The interval between rows should be at least one and a half meters. Total pair of "Mongols" with spare horses is 6,1 meters. And between the spare horses and the next pair of riders another half meter.
    Well, or to make it even more clear to you, each pair of horses (regardless of whether there are riders on them or not) takes 3,8 linear meters of road. Fifty thousand pairs of horses will occupy 3,8 mx 50 = 000 meters. Or 190 km. laughing laughing laughing
  • Seal
    Seal 2 December 2019 12: 50 New
    0
    Quote: SokolfromRussia
    "Vsevolod stole all the inhabitants of Ryazan" - this is speculation. In what source did you find this?

    Really speculation? Oh, how bad they are, chroniclers, huh? Do speculation !!!!
    And to me for their speculations to swell laughing




    Enough or more to add?
    Everywhere the same thing. Everywhere exactly the same .... speculation hi
  • Seal
    Seal 3 December 2019 12: 37 New
    0
    Quote: Severomor
    Horses dig snow deep up to 40 centimeters hooves and eat grass left in the snow.
    https://ru.sott.net/article/2052-mongoliyu-nakryli-moschnye-snegopady-za-den-vypala-pochti-vsya-zimnyaya-norma-osadkov
    Most of the territory of Mongolia is covered by heavy snow. In Ulaanbaatar, it fell overnight about xnumx mm precipitation. It is not so much, however, the snowfall is increasing, and apparently, it will continue all day. Such a heavy and prolonged snowfall in Mongolia in winter is a unique phenomenon. After all, most of the precipitation falls here in the summer months. In winter, the center of the famous Asian anticyclone is located over Mongolia. Therefore, it is mostly dry and frosty. For example, in Ulan Bator only 10 mm of precipitation falls throughout the winter.


    The climate of Mongolia is greatly influenced by the country's mountainous terrain and distance from the oceans. Therefore, the climate of Mongolia is sharply continental, with harsh and long winters, relatively warm summers, and sharp fluctuations in temperature, both daily and seasonal. In the climate of Mongolia, a winter anticyclone plays an important role, the center of which is located at the northern edge of the country, south of Lake Baikal.

    Therefore, winter is characterized by severe and persistent frosts that are not interrupted by thaws.

    During the year, air temperature fluctuations are 80 - 90 ° С, which indicates a sharp continental ™ climate of Mongolia. If we compare the temperatures for the period from 1960 to 2003. (over 40 years), it can be seen that the average annual temperature increased by 1,56 ° C; in spring and autumn - by 1,4 - 1,5 ° С, in summer - by 0,3 ° С.

    The average annual temperature is negative. The average long-term January temperature in the western part is -22,9 ° С, in the Gobi -16,7 ° С, in the northern part of the country -19,5 ° С, the average July temperature is +15, + 23 and +17,5 ° С, respectively.

    Precipitation falls mainly in the summer (July to August), as well as in May and September. Little snow falls, it is preserved, as a rule, only in the mountains. In the cold season, almost all precipitation falls in solid form. In the mountains, stable snow cover is established in October and is maintained until the beginning of April. Its greatest height is also noted there. In the desert and steppe zones of the plains, stable snow cover is practically not formed.
  • Seal
    Seal 4 December 2019 10: 27 New
    0
    Quote: Yaitsky Cossack
    The Kyrgyz horse, like the Mongolian one, is small, but very hardy. Got it. As far back as the XNUMXth century, almost all of the Urals, Orenburg, and Siberian Cossacks rode them. But the Slavs are larger physically than the Mongols.
    The Kyrgyz horse will still be 10 centimeters higher than the Mongolian one. And I believe that the Cossacks did not go all the way to pure Kyrgyz, which are of the type of pack horses, but to mestizos. Metiski will be even higher.
    And most importantly. Kyrgyz horse is capable of amble. The Mongolian horse is genetically incapable of amble.
    And the normal gait for ordinary movement with a speed higher than the gait “step” is precisely the gait “amble” - a push-pull gait (view between a trot and a step), in which two right and then two left legs are brought out simultaneously. The natural amble is a non-shaky gait very comfortable for the rider over long distances with slight lateral swaying. The stride length with amble is less than with trot, and the frequency is greater.
  • Molot1979
    Molot1979 6 February 2020 08: 43 New
    0
    And why do historians always carefully sidestep the question, what did Prince Yuri Vsevolodovich think about and why chroniclers persistently call the Tatars an unknown people? Or what, From the beginning to the mid 30s of the 13th century, Russia completely abandoned international trade? And she was completely not interested in who the Khorezm, Armenia and Georgia snowstorms there. And of course, no one even thought to find out what kind of new enemy he walked along the border of Russia in 1223? And of course, what for these Polovtsians, and we won’t listen to anyone who nags you in your Steppe? There is a complete, simply epic failure of the foreign intelligence of the Vladimir Principality. Well, or as an option, "intelligence reported accurately, but the prince did not believe." For 15 years, no one has bothered to find out what is happening there at the borders. Although the ambassadors from Volga Bulgaria came to Kurya, they begged on their knees to help, but the prince answered them in the spirit of Medved: "There will be no help, but you stay there and have a good mood." I didn’t even ask what kind of enemy this is, what are the features and characteristics. This is a conclusion from the fact that Yuri and everyone else until the last considered Batu’s army to be just a horde of wild nomads. They will raid, rob and go back to their steppe. But somehow they didn’t know anything about the powerful siege park. And they would know - they would not leave their families in fortified cities that have become a trap. No, something Yuri did. Updated border fortresses. And that is all. Of course, to assemble troops quickly under the feudal manning system is a daunting task. But they did not even try to solve it. Most likely, in anticipation of the coming winter - the nomads have never fought in the winter. So the arrival of an entire army on ice and snow was a mortal surprise. As for Ryazan, the idea was put forward that an alliance with her did exist. Because Kolomna’s painfully quickly turned out to be part of the Grand Duke’s ratification. I was in a hurry to join the Ryazans. So another possible reason appears for the extermination of the embassy - to force the Ryazan prince to strike before help is suitable. In any case, it turned out that way. Hit and lose. Then they met the second Russian army at Kolomna and again it was in the minority and again was defeated. Beat in parts. For such an experienced as Subeday, there was no secret in this.