Mongols in Russia. First strike

Batu invasion of Russia, miniature from the Life of Euphrosyne of Suzdal, XVII century

Having tested the strength of the Russian princes in the battle of Kalka, the Mongols took up more pressing matters.

1224-1236 Calm before the storm

The main direction in which the main forces were thrown was the Tangut kingdom of Xi Xia. The fighting here was already in the 1224 year, even before the return of Genghis Khan from the campaign to Khorezm, but the main campaign began in the 1226 year and was the last for Genghis Khan. By the end of that year, the Tangut state was almost defeated, only the capital was held, which was captured in August 1227 of the year, probably already after the death of Genghis. The death of the conqueror led to a decrease in the activity of the Mongols on all fronts: they were busy with the election of the new Great Khan, and despite the fact that Genghis Khan had appointed the third son of Ugadei as his successor, his election was not a formality at all.

Only in the 1229 year was Ogedei proclaimed the Great Khan (until then, the empire was ruled by the youngest son of Genghis Tolui).

Ugadei's enthronement, miniature from the Codex of Rashid ad-Din, 14th century

Silver coin with the image of Khan Ogedei, Mongolia

With his election, the neighbors immediately felt the intensification of the Mongol onslaught. Three tumens were sent to the Caucasus to fight against Jalal ad-Din. Subedei went to avenge the Bulgars for his defeat. But Batu Khan, who, according to Genghis Khan’s will, was to inherit power in the Juchi ulus, took part in the war with the Jin state, which ended only in the 1234 year. According to its results, he received the administration of Pinyangfu Province.

Thus, the situation in these years was generally favorable for the Russian principalities: the Mongols seemed to have forgotten about them, giving time to prepare to repel the invasion. And the Bulgars, whose state still blocked the path to Russia for the Mongols, desperately resisted, held on until the 1236 of the year.

But the situation in the Russian principalities over the years did not improve, but worsened. And if for the battle on Kalka it was still possible to combine the forces of several large principalities, then in 1238, even in the face of an open and terrible threat, the Russian princes indifferently looked at the death of their neighbors. And the time allotted to Russia to prepare for a new meeting with the Mongols expired.

On the eve of the invasion

In the spring of 1235, a great kurultai was assembled in Talan-dub, on which, among others, a decision was made to march to the West against the “Aracuts and Circassians” (Russians and inhabitants of the North Caucasus) - “where do the hooves of the Mongol horses go.”

These lands, as Genghis Khan commanded, were to be part of the Juchi ulus, whose heir was finally approved by Batu Khan.

Batu Khan in the medieval Chinese drawing of the XIV century

According to Genghis Khan’s “testament”, four thousand indigenous Mongols, who were to form the backbone of the army, were transferred to the Jochi ulus. Subsequently, many of them will become the founders of the new aristocratic clans. The main part of the invasion army consisted of warriors of already conquered peoples, who were supposed to send 10% of combat-ready men to it (but there were also many volunteers).

Dramatis personae

Batu Khan at that time was about 28 years old (born in 1209 year), he was one of the 40 sons of Jochi, and from his second wife, and not the eldest. But his mother, Uki-Khatun, was the niece of Genghis's beloved wife, Borte. Perhaps this circumstance became decisive in the decision of Genghis Khan to appoint him as heir to Jochi.

Batu Khan, medieval Persian miniature

The actual commander of his army was the experienced Subudey: “a leopard with a chopped paw,” as the Mongols called him. And here the Russian principalities were clearly unlucky. Subudei is perhaps the best commander of Mongolia, one of the closest associates of Genghis Khan, and his methods of warfare have always been extremely cruel. The killing by the Russian princes of the Mongolian ambassadors before the battle on Kalka was also not forgotten by them, and did not add sympathy to the Russian princes and their subjects.

Monument to Subedai in Tuva, unveiled on 1 September 2017

It should be said that, in the end, the number of Mongols in the army of Batu Khan turned out to be significantly more than four thousand, since other noble Genghisides went on a campaign with him. Ogedei sent his sons Guyuk and Kadan to gain combat experience.

Ogedei Khan sits with his two sons, Guyuk and Kadan. Thumbnail from a Persian source "History Mongols ", XV century

Also, the son of Chagatai Baydar and his grandson Buri, the sons of Toluya Munke and Bujek, and even the last son of Genghis Kulhan, born not of Borte, but the mercenary Hulan, joined Batu.

Chagatai, the second son of Genghis and Borte, the keeper of Yasa. Modern Monument, Mongolia

Toluy and his elder wife Sorkhokhtani, mother of the Khans Munke, Khubilai, Ilkhan Khulagu, Persian miniature

Despite the strict order of the parents, other Genghisides considered directly subordinate to Batu Khan below their dignity, and often acted independently of it. That is, they could sooner be called Baty’s allies than his subordinates.

As a result, Genghisides quarreled among themselves, which had far-reaching consequences. “The Secret Legend of the Mongols” (“Yuan Chao Bi Shi”) reports on the complaint that Batu Khan sent to the Great Khan Ugedei.

At the feast he had arranged before returning from the campaign, he, as the eldest among the Genghisides present, “drank the first cup of the feast”. Guyuk and the Storms, who left the feast very much, didn’t like it, offending the owner before it:

“And away they left an honest feast, and then Storm said, leaving:
"Desired to be with us
Bearded old women.
They would poke their heels,
And then I’ll trample my feet! ”
"To beat, or something, a good old woman, whose quivers hung on their belts!" - Guyug haughtily echoed him.
"And hang up wooden tails!" - added Argasun, the son of Elzhigday.
Then we said: “If we came to fight foreign aliens, shouldn’t we strengthen the accord among ourselves amicably ?!”
But no, Guyug and Storms did not heed the mind and the honest feast left, scolding. Reveal, Khan, now to us your will! "
After hearing the envoy Bata, Ugadei Khan became furious. ”

Guyuk will not forget this letter of Batu Khan, and will not forgive him the wrath of his father. But more on that later.

Beginning of the campaign

In the 1236 year, the Volga Bulgaria was finally conquered, and in the autumn of the 1237 year the Mongol army first entered the borders of the Russian land.

“Scolding of the pious with the unholy Baty”, medieval Russian miniature

Having proclaimed his goal “a trip to the last sea”, “where the hooves of the Mongol horses will reach,” Batu Khan moved his troops not to the west, but to the north and north-east of the ancient Russian state.

The defeat of the principalities of Southern and Western Russia can easily be explained by the further campaign of the Mongols in Europe. In addition, the squads of precisely these Russian lands fought in 1223 with the Tumens of Subedai and Jebe at the Kalki River, and their princes were directly responsible for the murder of the ambassadors. But why did the Mongols "make a detour" by entering the lands of the northeastern principalities? And was it necessary to do this?

Recall that the forests of central Russia for the Mongols and the steppes of other tribes involved in their campaign were an unfamiliar and alien environment. And the Genghisides did not want the grand princely thrones of Moscow, Ryazan or Vladimir, the Horde khans did not send their children or grandchildren to rule in Kiev, Tver and Novgorod. The next time the Mongols would come to Russia only in the 1252 year (Nevryuev’s army to the northeast, the Kuremsa army, and then Burundai to the west), and only because the adopted son of Batu Khan, Alexander Yaroslavich, informed him about the anti-Mongol the intentions of brother Andrew and Daniel Galitsky. In the future, the Horde khans will be literally drawn into Russian affairs by the warring princes, who will demand from them to be arbiters in their disputes, to solicit (and even buy) punitive armies of all kinds of princes. But until that time, the Russian principalities did not pay tribute to the Mongols, confining themselves to one-time gifts when visiting the Horde, and therefore some researchers say that Russia was re-conquered in 1252-1257, or even consider this conquest to be the first (considering the previous military campaign as raid).

Batu Khan, indeed, very soon became not up to Russia: in the 1246 year, his enemy Guyuk was elected the Great Khan, who in the 1248 year even went on a campaign against the cousin's ulus.

Guyuk Khan on holiday. Miniature from the Tarih-e-Jehangush Juvaini

Batu was saved only by the sudden death of Guyuk. Until that time, Batu Khan was extremely merciful to the Russian princes, treated them more likely as allies in a possible war, and did not demand tribute. The exception was the execution of the Chernigov prince Mikhail, who, the only one of the Russian princes, refused to go through the traditional rites of purification and thereby offended the khan. At the 1547 Council of the year, Michael was canonized as a martyr for the faith.

Veil "Holy Right Prince Mikhail of Chernigov", church sewing, 1660 years

The situation changed only after the election of the Great Khan Munke, who, on the contrary, was a friend of Batu, and therefore historians who consider the "yoke" a forced union of Russia and the Horde justify the actions of Alexander Yaroslavich, saying that Andrei and Daniil Galitsky were late with their speech.

Han Munke

Batu Khan was no longer afraid of a blow from the Karakorum, and therefore a new invasion of the Mongols could become for Russia, truly, catastrophic. Having “headed” it, Alexander saved the Russian lands from even more terrible defeat and ruin.

The first Horde khan to completely subjugate Russia is Berke, who was the fifth ruler of the Jochi ulus and was in power from 1257 to 1266. It was under him that the Basques came to Russia, and it was his rule that marked the beginning of the notorious “Tatar-Mongol yoke”.

So viewers saw Khan Berke in the TV series "Golden Horde"

But back to 1237 year.

Usually they say that Batu Khan did not dare to go to the West, having on the right flank the unshattered and hostile principalities of the Northeast. However, the northeastern and southern Russian principalities were ruled by different branches of the Monomashich, who were at war with each other. This was perfectly known to all neighbors, and the Mongols could not know about it. Both the Volga Bulgars conquered earlier and the merchants who visited Russia could tell them about the situation in the Russian principalities. Subsequent events showed that, striking the northeastern lands, the Mongols were completely not afraid of the Kiev, Pereyaslav and Galich squads.

As for the Western campaign, it is clear that it is more profitable to have neutral, if not friendly, then neutral states, and, given the complex relations of the Russian Monomashites, the Mongols could hope, at least, for the neutrality of Vladimir and Ryazan. If, however, they really wanted to defeat the potential allies of the South Russian princes before, then it must be recognized that this goal was in 1237-1238. has not been reached. Yes, the blow was very strong, the losses of the Russians were great, but their armies did not cease to exist, others took the place of the dead princes, from the same dynasty, rich and strong Novgorod remained unharmed. And the losses in manpower were not too large, since the Mongols did not yet know how to catch people who took refuge in the forests. They will learn only in the 1293 year, when the soldiers of the third son of Alexander Nevsky, Andrei, will actively help them in this (this is why the army brought by him to Dudenev was so remembered by the Russians, and the children were scared of “Duduk” in Russian villages in the 20th century).

In 1239, the new Grand Duke Vladimir of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich had a large and quite combat-ready army, with whom he made a successful campaign against the Lithuanians, and then captured the city of Kamenetz of the Chernigov Principality. Theoretically, it could have become even worse, because now the Russians had a reason to strike from the rear in order to take revenge. But, as we see and know, the hatred between the princes was stronger than the hatred of the Mongols.

Mongols at the borders of the Ryazan land

Opposing information about the Mongol attack on Ryazan lands has been preserved.

On the one hand, it tells about the desperate resistance of proud Ryazan and the unshakable position of its prince, Yuri Ingvarevich. Many from school years remember his answer to Batu: "When we are gone, then take everything."

On the other hand, it is reported that the Mongols, at first, were ready to be satisfied with the traditional tribute in the form of “tithes in everything: in people, in princes, in horses, in the tenth.” And in the "Tale of the Ruin of Ryazan Batu", for example, it is said that the council of the Ryazan, Murom and Pronsky princes decided to enter into negotiations with the Mongols.

"The Tale of the Ruin of Ryazan Batu"

Yuri Ingvarevich, indeed, sent his son Fedor with rich gifts to Batu Khan. Justifying this act, historians later said that in this way the Ryazan prince tried to buy time, because at the same time he asked for help from Vladimir and Chernigov. But at the same time, he missed the Mongolian ambassadors to the Grand Duke of Vladimir Yuri Vsevolodovich, and perfectly understood that he could conclude an agreement behind his back. And Ryazan did not receive any help from anyone. And, perhaps, only the incident at the khan's feast that ended in the death of his son prevented Yuri Ryazansky from concluding an agreement. After all, the Russian annals claim that at first Batu Khan received the young prince very graciously and even promised him not to go to Ryazan lands. This was possible only in one case: Ryazan at least has not yet refused to pay the required tribute.

The mysterious death of the Ryazan embassy in the headquarters of Batu Khan

But then suddenly there is the assassination of Fyodor Yuryevich and the "eminent people" accompanying him at Batyi headquarters. But the Mongols respected the ambassadors, and the reason for their killing should have been very serious.

The strange, simply monstrous demand of the "wives and daughters" of the Ryazan ambassadors, nevertheless, seems to be a literary fiction that hides the true meaning of this incident. After all, the Horde khans never made such demands on the Russian princes completely submissive to them.

Even if we assume that one of the hungry Mongols (the same Guyuk or Storms), who wanted to end the negotiations and start the war, suddenly shouted such words at the feast, deliberately provoking ambassadors, the refusal of the guests could be a reason for breaking up relations, but not reprisals them.

Perhaps, in this case, there was a tragic misunderstanding of the traditions and customs of the first meeting of representatives of different nations. Something in the behavior of Fyodor Yuryevich and his people could seem to the Mongols defiant and inappropriate, and provoke a conflict.

The easiest way to imagine their refusal to go through the ritual of purification by fire is a must when visiting the yurt of the khan. Or, a refusal to bow to the image of Genghis Khan (this plan is reported, for example, by Plano Carpini). For Christians, such idolatry was unacceptable, for the Mongols it would be a terrible insult. That is, Fedor Yurievich could have anticipated the fate of Mikhail Chernigov.

There were other bans that the Russians simply could not know about. Genghis Khan’s “Jasa” forbade, for example, stepping her foot on the ashes of a bonfire, because the soul of a deceased family member or clan leaves traces on it. It was impossible to pour wine or milk on the ground - it was considered as a desire to harm the dwelling or livestock of the owners with the help of magic. It was forbidden to step on the threshold of the yurt and enter the yurt with weapons, or with rolled up sleeves, it was impossible to urinate, before entering the yurt, sitting on the north side of the yurt and changing the place indicated by the owner. And any treat served to the guest must be accepted with both hands.

Recall that this was the first meeting of Russians and Mongols at such a level, and there were no one to tell Ryazan ambassadors about the intricacies of Mongolian etiquette.

The fall of Ryazan

Subsequent events Russian chronicles, apparently, are transmitted, right. Ryazan ambassadors died in the Batu Khan headquarters. The wife of the young prince Fyodor Eupraxia, in a state of passion, could very well have thrown herself from the roof with her young son in her arms. The Mongols went to Ryazan. Eupatiy Kolovrat, who came from Chernigov “with a small squad”, could attack the rearguard units of the Mongols between Kolomna (the last city of the Ryazan principality) and Moscow (the first city of the land of Suzdal).

In The Legend of Kolovrat, perhaps the most shameful historical film in the history of Russian and Soviet cinema, Fedor Yurievich bravely fights with the Mongols in front of the transvestite-looking Batu Khan, and his retinue, led by the boyar Yevpata, boldly runs away , leaving the protected person to the mercy of fate. And then Kolovrat, apparently realizing that for this Prince Yuri Ingvarevich, at best, hangs him on the nearest aspen, hangs around the forests for several days, waiting for the fall of his city. But let's not talk about sad things, because we know that everything was completely wrong.

Prince Fedor Yuryevich Ryazansky and Eupraxia before the Mother of God

Evpatiy Kolovrat, a monument in Ryazan

“Ruin ​​of the Ryazan Land”, A miniature from the front annalistic vault of the 16th century. Russian National Library

Having defeated the Ryazan troops that came out against them in a border battle (three princes died in it - Murom David Ingvarevich, Kolomna Gleb Ingvarevich and Pronsky Vsevolod Ingvarevich), the Mongols captured Pronsk, Belgorod-Ryazansky, Dedoslavl, Izheslavets, and then, after Pyatyandalov Ovyazladov, five-yards . Together with the townspeople, the family of the Grand Duke perished.

Deshalyt E.I. The heroic defense of Old Ryazan from the Mongol-Tatar troops in 1237 (diorama). Ryazan Kremlin

Kolomna will soon fall (the son of Genghis Kulhan will die here), Moscow, Vladimir, Suzdal, Pereyaslavl-Zalessky, Torzhok ...

In total, during this campaign, 14 Russian cities will be taken and destroyed.

"The capture and ruin of the Mongol-Tatars of Moscow in 1238." Thumbnail from the front annalistic vault, XVI century. Russian National Library

"The capture of Suzdal by Batu." Thumbnail from the front annalistic vault, XVI century. Russian National Library

We will not retell the history of Batu Khan’s campaigns on Russian lands, it is well known, we will try to consider two strange episodes of this invasion. The first is the defeat of the Russian squads of the Grand Duke of Vladimir on the River City. The second is an incredible seven-week defense of the small town of Kozelsk.

And let's talk about this in the next article.

Comments

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Thank! Thank! Thank! We are waiting for comments, with respect Vlad !!!

[Civil]

All the same, now Russia is much larger and it includes many subjects, I would like the author to cover the fight against the Mongols in the Urals and the Volga region.

[Korsar4]

Thank. And why do you think that Kolovrat fought between Kolomna and Moscow? Any instructions other than the Kamenka River?

[VLR]

There is simply an indication that he was buried on 11 on January 1238 of the year. 1 January, the Mongols approached Kolomna. Moscow was taken on January 20.

[Korsar4]

I thought that closer to Suzdal all this could happen. Moreover, the most famous Kamenka is there.

[tlauicol]

Was he at all, Kolovrat? It appears very late in the literature

[Korsar4]

He was a boyar of Ryazan.

But with the fact that the events are legendary, you can not argue.

For example, I don’t really imagine that he would be buried in Ryazan Cathedral. After all, everything was destroyed.

[VLR]

Something like that was entirely possible. Exaggerated, of course, then, brought to epic heights. But it is easy to imagine the condition of a man who returned home, but is not at home, there is no family, nothing, but there is some, albeit small, number of warriors waiting for orders. Which probably also had families in Ryazan.

[romb]

Kolovrat is nothing more than a legend. The usual fiction.
Not a single "international" (eastern) source mentions any heroic resistance there.

[SokolfromRussia]

Swedish sources do not mention the Battle of Neva either. Was she not there either?

[romb]

Have you decided to compare a local skirmish of a hundred or two people with such a large-scale action as a battle with a army of thousands of nomads?

[vladcub]

Now, if the Kolovrat’s passport had been preserved, but again they learned how to forge documents even figs knows when

[Slavs]

So America won WWII, they mention it directly in their sources ... But my grandfather was not, he is not in any Western archive ..

[Vol4ara]

Quote: Slavs

So America won WWII, they mention it directly in their sources ... But my grandfather was not, he is not in any Western archive ..

And that America lost her?

[Slavs]

Not. won. Herself. Thank you for freeing the whole of Europe and us at the same time from the occupation .. Is that better? Or give snickers? )))

[Vol4ara]

Quote: Slavs

Not. won. Herself. Thank you for freeing the whole of Europe and us at the same time from the occupation .. Is that better? Or give snickers? )))

No, she was at the same time with Germany and Japan, and the French bombed Pearl Harbor. Did you go to school? Or do you have an alternative story, maybe you dug the black sea ahead of the Ukrainians? Indeed, sometimes it is better to be silent ...

[Slavs]

To comment:

Kolovrat is nothing more than a legend. The usual fiction.
Not a single "international" (eastern) source mentions any heroic resistance there.

I replied sarcastically:

Quote: Slavs

So America won WWII, they mention it directly in their sources ... But my grandfather was not, he is not in any Western archive ..

You decided to stand up for America, I also answered you with sarcasm.

[Pilat2009]

Quote: Slavs

No. won. Herself

It can be interpreted as you like. As well as the war of 1812, where the coalition defeated Napoleon

[Slavs]

Coalition won the war of 1812 of the year ?? Who with whom ???

[Suhow]

And mine in Poland on excursions probably stayed.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote from Korsar4

He was a boyar of Ryazan.

But with the fact that the events are legendary, you can not argue.

For example, I don’t really imagine that he would be buried in Ryazan Cathedral. After all, everything was destroyed.

More than ruined! Ryazan after the ruin of the Tatars, was moved 12 kilometers upstream. So the issue is debatable, we do not know the details corny.
Regards, Vlad!

[SokolfromRussia]

In "The Tale of the Ruin of Ryazan by Batu" there is such a passage: "And they rushed after the godless tsar, and could hardly catch up with him in the Suzdal land." The Suzdal land, that is, the Vladimir-Suzdal principality, began behind Kolomna. Perhaps, after the battle of Kolomna, the Horde rested and then Kolovrat overtook them.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote from Korsar4

Any instructions other than the Kamenka River?

There is an indication "within the Suzdal limits." Kolomna was then a Ryazan volost, and Moscow was a Suzdal volost.

[Korsar4]

Even Vronsky in the "Evil City":

"But Batu himself is rampaging
On the Suzdal land. "

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

In miniature war shaved against the bearded.

[tlauicol]

Jochi got married to his cousin, is it? Could there be no Genghis blood in Batu?

[VLR]

Yes, perhaps the Horde khans were, after all, not Genghisides, but Jochids.
But this cannot be said for sure. As it is said in the parables of Solomon, "it is impossible to find three things - the footprint of a fish in the river, the footprint of a snake on a stone, and the footprint of a man in a woman" (now it is possible, of course).
There is another version of this statement, more romantic:
"The path of the eagle in the sky, the path of the snake on the rock, the path of the ship among the sea and the path of man to girl"

[Korsar4]

Wow interpretation.

[romb]

And the Juchids, in general, were aware that they were not considered Genghisids?
Jochids are almost a synonym - Genghiside. Because they were actually the last of the legacy of Genghis Khan, who could rule the states and peoples for the longest time.

[Senior seaman]

In principle, there could not be Genghis blood, since Jochi is a Merkit apprx. Borte gave birth to him while she was in captivity.

[tlauicol]

Quote: Senior Sailor

In principle, there could not be Genghis blood, since Jochi is a Merkit apprx. Borte gave birth to him while she was in captivity.

could take a paternal cousin Jochi

[Senior seaman]

Purely theoretically - it is possible, but in fact - no.

[romb]

In the sense: in fact - no? You are so confidently declaring that I was almost sure: do you really have DNA analyzes of Genghis Khan and Jochi himself?

[romb]

For the past, stop acting like an offended girl.
Explain your disagreement.
And then, from your minuses and rushing inferiority complex

[Senior seaman]

Sorry, but Batu’s parents are well known. In addition, it is known, to put it mildly, a biased attitude of the Mongol elite to Jochi himself. But Temuchin himself loved him very much, so much so that they could not announce the death of his son for a long time, they were afraid how Genghis Khan might react.
So why on earth would Genghis marry Jochi to one of his daughters or granddaughters? To confirm in the eyes of others an illegal origin? And without his blessing, such a thing would not have happened.

[romb]

Just to Batu there was no such claim. But there was rather a personal butchert of Chagatai to Jochi, in the context of palace games around the possible inheritance of his father. And his claims can be understood. After all, if Jochi suddenly ceased to be Genghisid, then he would automatically drop out of the nomadic affair. But Chagatay received all the rights on the basis of the birthright. That's about it, even the chapters themselves. the khan ordered to stop all these rumors around Jochi’s non-relationship, recognizing that his wife Borte was already pregnant when she was captured by Merkits.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: Senior Sailor

Jochi - Merkitsky ok

In a previous article, we discussed this.
I quote my post on this topic:

It is known that his mother Borte was a prisoner of the Merkits. It is known that she gave birth to her first child on the way from captivity. It is known that once Chagatai (the second son of Temujin), in the presence of his father, called his older brother "the heir of the Merkit captivity." And this is all (I emphasize!) The information available to us that allows us to deny the paternity of Genghis Khan with respect to Jochi.
But besides this, there is a mass of data indicating the opposite. So, for example, Rashid ad-Din writes:
In the very first years of Genghis Khan's deeds, when traces of his world rule had not yet appeared on the pages of the sheets of the era, his wife, mentioned by Borte-fujin, became pregnant with Jochi Khan. At such a time, the Merkit clan, taking advantage of an opportunity, plundered Genghis Khan's dwelling and took away [into full] his wife, who was pregnant. Although this tribe had previously been at enmity and argued with Ong Khan, the sovereign [of the] Kerait, there was peace between them at that time, so they sent Borte-fujin to Ong Khan. Since the latter was twinned with Genghis Khan's father and [Ong Khan] called Genghis Khan his son, he respected and respected Borte Fujin, kept her in the position of a young daughter-in-law and protected her from prying eyes. Since she was very beautiful and capable, the emirs of Ong-khan said among themselves: “Why does Ong-khan not take [herself] Borte-fujin?” He replied: “She is in the position of my son's young wife and is safe with us ; it is ignoble to look at her with insidious intentions. " When Genghis Khan found out about this circumstance, he sent to Ong Khan with a request to return back Borte-fujin one emir named Saba, from among the vag-ud'ov of the Gelair clan ... Ong-Khan, having shown her attention and care, sent her along with Saba. On the way, a son was suddenly born, for this reason he was named Jochi.

I also note that he paid for his statement regarding Juchi - Genghis Khan denied him the right to inherit the title of Great Khan. After the death of Genghis Khan (given that Jochi died earlier), this title was succeeded by Ogedei - the third son. At the same time, the descendants of Jochi from the number of applicants for the role of the Great Khan were not excluded.
The assumption that Genghis Khan did not know how to calculate the gestational age for women and could mistake Juchi for his son seems to me not too solid. He knew (unlike us) how much time Borte spent in captivity with the Merkits. And he was not the only one, even if he wanted to deceive everyone (why on earth?) He would not succeed.

I think the topic can be closed.

[Senior seaman]

May be. But do not forget that Rashid ad-Din was not a witness to these events, except that he was a court among the Hulaguids, whose relations with the Juchids were traditionally friendly. He would try to write something else :))
Well, the fact that Temuchin loved Bort, I believe, does not cause objections?
Love sometimes takes strange forms.

I think the topic can be closed.

close.

[Living7111972]

Accepted by his and pretty ...

[Thunderbolt]

Recall that the forests of central Russia for the Mongols and the steppes of other tribes involved in their campaign were an unfamiliar and alien environment.

As history shows, the Mongols quite victoriously waged wars in the most diverse climatic conditions and terrain. Part of Siberia and the Far East, China, Asian and BV deserts, the Caucasus and even Tibet. Successfully operated in the complex terrain of Korea and in the tropical jungle of Vietnam and Burma. Therefore, the great Central Russian forests (or rather the paths laid through them) became just another ringing coin in the piggy bank of the Mongol combat experience.

[Lantau]

And how many of them came to Russia? And what were the horses fed with? Have their families been with them?

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Lantau

And how many of them came to Russia?

30-40'000

[Lantau]

Something is not enough to conquer all of Russia))) In this whole story there are more questions than answers.

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Lantau

Something is not enough to conquer all of Russia))) In this whole story there are more questions than answers.

How much do you need? (According to the calculations of modern military historians, the Union of Princes was able to put up 7-8 thousand forged rati + about 4 thousand light Polovtsian cavalry. Two incomplete tumens 12-16 thousand well-organized and disciplined Mughal cavalry were enough to completely defeat them .)

[Lantau]

You apparently do not quite well imagine this amount of 30-40 thousand. They would simply be lost in our vastness. And one more thing, among the Mongols the alphabet was adopted in 1941. Is this a highly developed civilization that just yesterday picked up a notebook and pencil?

[Thunderbolt]

Quote: Lantau

And one more thing, among the Mongols the alphabet was adopted in 1941.

You probably just don’t know that before the Cyrillic Mongolian they used the Old Mongolian / from the 13th century /. And both of these scripts are official in modern Mongolia.)))

[RF man]

30-40 thousand hours "at that time" is a lot. At the same Englishmen in later times "the history of the country was decided" in battles, where on both sides there were 20 thousand and less.

[Vol4ara]

Quote: Lantau

Something is not enough to conquer all of Russia))) In this whole story there are more questions than answers.

More than enough

[Severomor]

Quote: HanTengri

30-40'000

Why!
Those. in December, 120 thousand were moving along the Klyazma River along the Vladimir-Suzdal Principality (if anything - a forest belt). grooms. No convoy !!!! Or with a convoy? Probably with a convoy. And then where are the Chinese masters constructing magnificent siege weapons (that’s the trouble after 50 years the Mongols will lose this great invention).
Or without a convoy ?, And then 30 km a day with a convoy not from the hand)))) and yes ... ..
these hardy horses ate ... ....... .... What?
YES! "!!!! -" TEBENEVKA ".
And what is it? Great .... pedia (the main source of knowledge) reports:

winter pasture, self-extraction of feed from horses under the snow.
Until now, horses in Kazakhstan and Mongolia have grazed in the steppe on their own, only periodically looked after by shepherds. Herds of horses are led by stallions, which lead herds along their usual territory.
Horses dig snow up to 40 centimeters deep with hooves and eat grass left under the snow. Given the scarcity of winter vegetation, this is a very energy-intensive method and horses lose weight noticeably in winter, therefore, in the summer, horses eat heavily, feeding fat.
In Kazakhstan and Mongolia, sheep also graze on snow in the winter. However, unlike horses, shepherds graze them. Kazakh horses and sheep (for example, the Edilbayev breed of sheep), Mongolian horses and sheep are very resistant to frost and can graze in winter even in severe frosts.
In the case of deep snow, horses look for places where it is blown away by the wind, and therefore the layer of snow is less. However, there are times when an ice crust forms on the snow (crust). In such cases, the horses injure their legs, eat poorly and there is a high mortality rate.. Sheep especially can not graze in the presence of infusion. Given that nomads never harvested hay, this led to a large mortality of cattle, the so-called jute.

Conclusion: Mongolian horses are akin to Mongolian bagaturas (or whatever they are?) FABRICALLY hardy, strong and invincible !!!

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Severomor

Quote: HanTengri

30-40'000

Why!
Those. in December, 120 thousand were moving along the Klyazma River along the Vladimir-Suzdal Principality (if anything - a forest belt). grooms. No convoy !!!! Or with a convoy?

In 1812, Napoleon pressed 94 cavalry into Russia. How many horses should there be, including backup ones? And including a convoy for, roughly, 600 thousand army? It is a pity that both Bonya and Batu managed to consult with you ...

[Severomor]

November 26–29, 1812 All mass of cavalry Great Army crossed to the other side Berezina River ))). 2 days left before the calendar start of winter).

[Seal]

Quote: HanTengri

30-40'000

Well, where does this figure come from? Maybe the staffing of the Mongolian army was found? Probably also Batu approved?

[ver_]

..they have never been to Russia ... If you take the population of Mongolia in the 20th, century and * pass * to the 12th century, then you will come to the population of * Mongols * of 14 thousand. the man of everything (along with the women and children) ... Here is the fourth part and there will be men ..- 4000 people ... Through sands, illnesses, without grub and water ... What only the humanities will not think of ... Read simply * March march of the iron special forces of Genghis Khan * Sergey Leksutov ...

[Seal]

Quote: ver_

What only humanities do not think of ..

Moreover, the great Mongol conquests are written mainly by those who are not the ones who never organized a weekly field exit for at least a company, but in general did not serve in the army. Or served .. as a clerk at headquarters.

[Sentinel-vs]

A wonderful series of articles. Very interesting to read.
Comrades, can you please tell me the suitable fiction about the Middle Ages. It is possible even with elements of science fiction, but what exactly was about those times of the 10-14th century.
For example, at one time I really liked the book "Stories of Ancient Years" by Valentin Ivanov. Here's something in the same spirit, tell me?

[Van 16]

Books by Vasily Yan, "Russia and the Horde" Karateev, Akunin "Prince Cranberry", "Star", "Boh and Rogue" (right away - Akunin's books have little to do with the science of history, but good adventure novels), from fantasy - Krasnitsky, cycle "The centurion's grandson," but a lot can be found.

[Living7111972]

Best kalashnikov "cruel age"

[tlauicol]

Jan has bad books. Read Kalashnikov's Cruel Age

[SokolfromRussia]

Why don't you like Jan’s books?

[tlauicol]

Quote: SokolfromRussia

Why don't you like Jan’s books?

a matter of taste. I didn’t like them at 10 years old - weak and some kind of artificial

[Mitya2424]

"The Cruel Age" by Isai Kalashnikov is an outstanding work, I highly recommend

[Andrey VOV]

I don't remember the author of "Dawns over Russia" called ...

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: Sentinel-vs

Please tell me suitable fiction about the Middle Ages

Dmitry Balashov, "Sovereigns of Moscow", if you want something more historical.
Alexey Yugov "Warlords"
Eduard Zorin, four books, I do not remember the names.
In general, in the ZhZL series there are not bad books dedicated to the figures of this era, but they cannot be said to be literally artistic, although they are read quite easily.

[tlauicol]

Yes, the Balashov series is quite suitable

[Pane Kohanku]

Dmitry Balashov, "Sovereigns of Moscow", if you want something more historical.

"Great Russia", I don't remember who the author is. But this is more of a work of art.
Mikhail, I confess .. I read more "The Cursed Kings" by Maurice Druon, and the last three books ...

[Van 16]

"Great Russia" is exactly Valentin Ivanov. If I'm not mistaken. the final book of the trilogy is the original Russia, the Tale of ancient years, the great Russia.

[Pane Kohanku]

Yes, there is a trilogy. In the first part, even a Soviet film was shot.

[bubalik]

Pane Kohanku (Pane Kohanku) Today, 12: 38

You фyou're lying!
,,, and in general the Slavs are aliens from Nibiru, sent to the flat earth by the "grays" to end the domination of the reptilians from the planet Ka-Peks.

[Pane Kohanku]

,, and in general the Slavs are aliens from Nibiru, sent to the flat earth by the "grays" to end the domination of the reptilians from the planet Ka-Pex.

yeah, Sergei, now there is a "patriot" who will not understand humor and will accuse you of Russophobia too.

sent to the flat earth by the "grays"

this is to Anton. It seems that he knows science fiction very well, but I "swim" in it!

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: bubalik

You lie FSE!

Sergei, according to the latest trends in science, it is correct to write "Fsevivrioti" and no less "disyatka" sticks with a dot at the bottom.

[Sentinel-vs]

Quite right. Despite the fact that this is a series of books, they are not connected with each other in the plot and even the writing style is different, as it seemed. Tale of Ancient Years is, in my opinion, the most exciting of the series.

[Severomor]

Read W. Jan. Masterpiece. Unforgettable 300 thousand Tatar-Mongol in the forest zone of Russia))))

[Boris55]

Again we tell tales ....

Andrew the First-Called, not called by anyone, came to the shores of the Black Sea in the first century and reached the shores of the White Sea, presenting to Russia a new concept of life. Russia did not accept this, but did not offer anything new either. By the 10th century, the Western concept took possession of the minds of individual priests and rulers, who dreamed of leaving all their privileges to their children and grandchildren. The confrontation between the old and the old concept (faith) has survived in our memory as "internecine wars".

In the last figure in the article, this is clearly visible (circled by a red line):

Almost three hundred years of battle between the old faith and the newcomer ended in a victory known to us as the "Tatar-Mongol yoke", but the battle is not over yet. As an echo of the past - we still have the RPSTs (http://rpsc.ru)

"During the meeting, Vladimir Putin and Metropolitan Korniliy discussed the upcoming celebration of the 400th anniversary of the birth of the Hieromartyr Archpriest Avvakum and the reconstruction of architectural monuments in the main centers of the celebration - the Rogozhskoye and Preobrazhensky cemeteries of Moscow. Also, within the framework of the national policy, problems of interaction with compatriots were raised. abroad".

ps
I am not a supporter of any other faith (concept).

[Boris55]

I will give pleasure to minusers once again minus me.

I’ll add about the picture.

In the upper red "circle", representatives of the new faith baptize adherents of the old faith with three fingers (pinch) (Old Believers do not baptize with a fig). For the new faith warriors on horseback with swords. The new faith in Russia was implanted with fire and sword.

In the lower red "circle", the wise men who have not lost their lives stand in defense of the faith of their ancestors, their people, in front of the people. They were killed first.

[tlauicol]

Until triple into Russia for another long 400 years. Even at the time of writing the miniature it was not there.
And what kind of vile Western concept is this, especially when you consider that the West did not use triplets in 1237, and now too.
P.S. but the torches were

[Boris55]

Quote: Tlauicol

Until triple into Russia for a long 400 years.

These questions are not for me, but for the artist who painted this picture and for the date of events that describes what is happening. I see what is painted.

Quote: Tlauicol

And what kind of vile Western concept is this,

Anti-human, known as Biblical.

[tlauicol]

What, the analysis of Slavic faces in miniatures 16-17vv already out of fashion? Passed on fingers?
My advice to you: start right away with prints and iris in the pictures of the New Time - you will be the first among the chroniclers for the next few years

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

Also noted that Russian miniatures do not fit the topic. It can be seen in the drawings or even emphasized that the regular army is attacking the townspeople, brought to the same standard of ammunition and in one color scheme in the European style. If we are painted in white raincoats with red crosses, we get the Templars led by a warrior with a crown, the only spoilers are the warriors who have a bastard-horse who doesn’t fit with the ammunition of the Turks and does not look like a united rabble of nomads.

[sivuch]

Hello, on miniatures from the annals of all warriors are sabers (since illustrations are from the earliest 15th century), and not European swords or swords. .The most ridiculous thing is that in the 13th century the Mongols (whatever their proper name) wielded straight huldu swords

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

"Ruin of Ryazan" warriors with straight swords. Batu Khan with a straight sword. "Abuse of the pious ..." with sabers on both sides and with a blush. Really not logical and contradictory. We can of course assume that the purchases of weapons and ammunition were from one military organization why not.

[sivuch]

Yeah, in Chinese Batu miniature, the Chinese sword is jian. Tradition s. But at the same time, in Chinese miniatures, Batu has 3 arrows in the quiver, and at the beast-shaped Subedea - already 4. Because it is not Genghiside

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

What can you say about straight swords on miniatures taking Ryazan, Moscow, Suzdal? And in the foreground two swords on each miniature, as it is symbolic. If the Chinese had not signed that it was Batu Khan, I would have thought a samurai.

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Konstantin Shevchenko

What can you say about straight swords on miniatures taking Ryazan, Moscow, Suzdal?

What can I say here? Only: "The artist sees it this way.", Because the capture of Ryazan, Moscow, Suzdal is the X ||| century, and the miniatures are the XV | century. There is no other, secret meaning here.

[tlauicol]

The battle of the pious is the lubok of the 18th century to the life of Euphrosyne. Well, at least the Shuvalov unicorns are not painted on

[Trilobite Master]

Boris, still on the icons of the XVI century. you will see saints blessing the flock with only two fingers.

[Boris55]

Quote: Trilobite Master

still on the icons of the XVI century. you will see saints blessing the flock with only two fingers.

And today it can be seen:

[Trapperxnumx]

Boris, if we study history only from pictures, then looking at the portraits of Lenin in China, we will think that he was a Chinese. Don't bullshit please.

[karabass]

All as you say, By the way, probably you do not know: this is not a drawing! this photo!

[Olgovich]

But why did the Mongols "make a detour" by entering the lands of the northeastern principalities? And was it necessary to do this?

The author did not give an answer to his own question.

Strange just the monstrous demand of the "wives and daughters" of the Ryazan ambassadors, nevertheless, seems like a literary fiction
hiding the true meaning of this incident. After all, the Horde khans never made such demands on the Russian princes completely submissive to them.

Even if we assume that one of the hungry Mongols (the same Guyuk or Storms), who wanted to end the negotiations and start the war, suddenly shouted such words at the feast, deliberately provoking ambassadors, the refusal of the guests could be a reason for breaking up relations, but not reprisals them.

Perhaps, in this case, there was a tragic misunderstanding of the traditions and customs of the first meeting of representatives of different nations. Something in the behavior of Fyodor Yuryevich and his people could seem to the Mongols defiant and inappropriate, and provoke a conflict.

The easiest way to imagine their refusal to go through the ritual of purification by fire is a must when visiting the yurt of the khan. Or - refusal to bow to the image of Genghis Khan

it was a murder for violation of supposed traditions that seemed like a strange fiction: people were no stupider than us then and understood the need to explain the rules of conduct at the first meeting: this is always and everywhere.

But the obviously unacceptable requirements and the refusal to comply with them and could cause reprisal.

[VLR]

Knowingly unacceptable demands and refusal to satisfy them are a reason for breaking off relations and war. Not to kill ambassadors. But the refusal to undergo the necessary rituals of purification and disrespect for Mongolian traditions is a reason, which is proved by the fate of Mikhail of Chernigov. Later the Russians and Mongols "got used to it" and such acute situations did not arise.

[sivuch]

In the case of Michael, there was a conscious refusal to perform, not out of ignorance

[VLR]

Yes, for this they canonized. And Fedor Yuryevich, too, could consciously refuse to perform pagan rites.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: VlR

the refusal to undergo the necessary rituals of purification and disrespect for the Mongol traditions is an occasion, which is proved by the fate of Mikhail Chernigov.

Namely, that occasion, and even then it is doubtful. Batu had enough reasons to execute Mikhail, most importantly, reasons, both legal and political, and without abandoning the rite of purification. What is only the execution of the Mongolian ambassadors in Kiev. He was cowardly, treacherous, short-sighted and, most importantly, nobody needs.
As for the execution of the Ryazan embassy, ​​I would note the fact that it took place immediately upon returning to the Batu headquarters of the Mongolian embassy from Prince Yuri. These two facts may well be related.
In general, it seems to me that in this case, as in many others, you need to look not for reasons, but for reasons. For example, as an option, the returned embassy revealed for Batu the fact that under the guise of negotiations with him, the Ryazan princes were preparing for war and were looking for allies, was playing for time. Thus, the Ryazan embassy to the Mongols in the eyes of Batu turned out to be completely a deception. Having received this information, as well as information that Yuri would not intercede for Ryazan, Batu executed the "deceivers" and moved to Ryazan.
This design seems more real to me, especially since Prince Fedor spent quite a long time at Batu headquarters before execution. In fact, he was not an ambassador, as such, but a hostage, and as soon as the true, hostile plans of the Ryazan princes were revealed, he was executed.

[Pane Kohanku]

For example, as an option, the returned embassy revealed for Batu the fact that under the guise of negotiations with him, the Ryazan princes were preparing for war and were looking for allies, was playing for time. Thus, the Ryazan embassy to the Mongols in the eyes of Batu turned out to be completely a deception. Having received this information, as well as information that Yuri would not intercede for Ryazan, Batu executed the "deceivers" and moved to Ryazan.

hmm .. logical! And there was no time to lose either ... I bow to Pana Kohanku!

[Olgovich]

Quote: VlR

Obviously unacceptable requirements and the refusal to satisfy them are a reason for breaking relations and war. Not for killing ambassadors.

This is purely YOUR opinion, which does not seem convincing

[karabass]

Your version is noteworthy, maybe so and maybe not
In many cases, it happens exactly as the legend says, and not otherwise! They are tenacious
In this case, the legend I trust more than you

[Mitya2424]

"On the attack of the Mongols on the Ryazan lands, the opposite information has been preserved" - Not a very successful formulation used by the author. It reads like this, some believe that proud Ryazan fought to the end, others that the Ryazan people themselves are to blame for provoking the kind and honest Mongols with their boorish behavior.

AUTHOR, I appeal to YOU: Ryazan is the only city out of those 14 taken by the Mongols, which was completely destroyed and rebuilt in a new place, and its inhabitants were completely exterminated "from small to large" and this is a FACT that more than eloquently describes the nature of that confrontation.
Ryazans fought, all as one and all died, compare with the withdrawal of residents from the walls of Khorezm for three days to rob.

[VLR]

Nobody argues with that. At first there was an attempt to negotiate, and then fierce resistance. And one does not contradict the other.
Well, what happened at Batu Khan’s headquarters, and who provoked whom, is hard to say. Perhaps not Batu, and not Fedor, but someone from other Genghisides who wanted not peace and tribute, but war and exploits.

[SokolfromRussia]

14 cities - this is only in the Vladimir-Suzdal principality. In the annals, Ryazan and Chernihiv cities were considered separately. Not only Ryazan has not recovered, some other cities have disappeared.

[Seal]

What kind of Ryazan can we talk about?
It is believed that at the very beginning of the XIII century, the Vladimir prince Vsevolod the Big Nest burned to ashes in 1207 or 1208 (here historians argue when exactly) the city of Ryazan. In the same year (one of two), the same Vsevolod destroyed Belgorod Ryazansky. All Ryazan and probably Belgorod residents Vsevolod brought out of the Ryazan principality and settled in the Suzdal land. Ryazan was not revived. Vsevolod also ravaged the Ryazan cities of Pronsk and Izheslavets. How many people have returned to the ashes of Ryazan? Hardly a lot. Rather little. Let's say, after 10 years, several thousand returned. Hardly more. Were they able to revive Ryazan? Not sure. Most likely they settled down to live in a hitherto unknown, but survived a small town (or maybe a village, which they began to equip for a city), which they began to call Ryazan. But here they were not safe either. The people of Vladimir were eager to finish off the Ryazan people, and just ten years later, in 1219, another war followed and another siege of the rather new town "Ryazan" by the Vladimir people. The Russians and Erzya died again. Ryazan is more likely a city of the Erzya people. Hence the name RYAZAN. Or maybe ERZYAN. Then the conditional "Ryazan" was forced to fight with Murom in 1232.

[Mitya2424]

The same Ryazan, which by 1237 was a well-fortified city with 10-meter sheer earthen ramparts and an 8-meter moat.

Quote: Seal

Ryazan is more likely a city of the Erzya people. Hence the name RYAZAN. Or maybe ERZYAN. Then the conditional "Ryazan"

- fierce nonsense, Slavs-Vyatichi in the Finno-Ugric record.

Quote: Seal

It is believed that at the very beginning of the XIII century, Vladimir Prince Vsevolod the Big Nest burned down in 1207 or 1208 (here historians argue when exactly) the city of Ryazan.

- Exactly, and before that, Gleb Ryazansky, along with the Polovtsy, burned Moscow in 1177, and so what?

[Seal]

Quote: Mitya2424

for sure, and before that, Gleb Ryazansky, together with the Polovtsy, burned Moscow in 1177, and so what?

Firstly, the year 1177 is not the 1208th.
Secondly, it is not written anywhere that Gleb Ryazansky removed all Muscovites from Moscow and resettled them (further from your imagination, where exactly he resettled).

Moscow, like all other cities, itself regularly burned. One more fire, one less fire - not the point ...

[SokolfromRussia]

In the sense that the city of Ryazan was not revived? The son of Vsevolod, the Big Nest, released from the dungeons both the Ryazan princes, the boyars and those inhabitants who were taken away from the principality. "Vsevolod took away all the inhabitants of Ryazan" is speculation. In what source did you find this? Archaeologists wrote a lot about the stages of the history of the city of Ryazan based on the results of excavations. Look at least Darkevich's book "Journey to Ancient Ryazan".

The city was rebuilt by Ingvar with his sons, they then fought against Gleb and the Polovtsy, who staged a massacre in Isad. All this is well reflected in the annals. In 1219 "Ryazan was besieged by the people of Vladimir"? What kind of fantasy?

"Conditioned Ryazan fought with Murom"? It is clear, another Fomenkovets. For sim I take my leave.

[sivuch]

The killing by the Russian princes of the Mongolian ambassadors before the Battle of Kalka was also not forgotten by them
I don’t know, they wrote about it, but according to some reports, among the killed ambassadors was the son of Subudai

[VLR]

Yes, there is such a version (about the two sons of Subudey who were with him on this campaign, and one turned out to be part of the first embassy), in the previous article it is described.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: VlR

Yes, there is such a version

Valery, if not a secret, where is this version presented? It's just that I really never heard it before reading your article.

[Alexey-74]

Thanks to the author. It is a pity that in schools they study so little of the period of the Mongol invasion and the struggle of the Russian principalities against the conquerors. The key battles in 1237-1238 were little studied (not to mention teaching in schools).

[SokolfromRussia]

The text is interesting, the only thing I will allow a few comments.

In the battle on Voronezh, Davyd Yuryevich could not participate, since he died in 1228. You obviously took this from "The Tale of the Ruin of Ryazan by Batu". In it, the author confuses the princes. The name of Prince Pronsky also remains unknown. Only presumably his name was Vsevolod, as if this is unknown. In Kolomna, then Roman Ingvarevich ruled, and not a certain Gleb.

Further, 14 cities destroyed by Batu are the cities of the Vladimir-Suzdal principality. In addition to them, cities were destroyed in the Principality of Ryazan (which you list) and on the outskirts of Chernigov (Vschizh, Serensk, Kozelsk).

As for the "admission" of the ambassadors to Vladimir by the Ryazan people, this is completely logical. Yuri Vsevolodovich was the suzerain of Ryazan. In addition, there were very good relations between the Ryazan and Vladimir princes, the residents of Ryazan and Murom always supported Yuri Vsevolodovich in his military actions. Moreover, it was he who released the captured Ryazan princes from the Vladimir dungeons in 1212, gifted them and returned their principality to them. A very noble deed. He could have simply taken over Ryazan and other cities. But he not only released the princes, but also the boyars and ordinary people who were brought out of the Ryazan principality by his father Vsevolod the Big Nest. And after the tragedy in Isad, he gave them full support against Gleb Vladimirovich and the Polovtsi.

Ryazan's help was sent, but simply did not have time. If the Ryazan prince remained in Ryazan, then he would wait for the approach of the Vladimir squads led by Vsevolod Yurievich and Voivode Yeremey. They came to Kolomna, and she was the inheritance of Ryazan. And Yuri Ingvarevich probably went to avenge his insidiously killed son and died in the battle with the Horde.

[VLR]

About Kolomna - at the beginning of the next article. I will not get ahead of myself. Indeed, Roman Ingvarevich defended her, and died there, but he could replace the killed Gleb.
And in Ryazan Vladimirites, in any case, did not have time.

[SokolfromRussia]

Gleb Ingvarevich is unknown in the annals. In the Resurrection Chronicle, for example, Yuri, Roman and Oleg are called the sons of Ingvar. Considering that the author of "The Tale" has seriously confused the names of the princes, it is quite possible that Gleb Ingvarevich did not exist at all.

[alebor]

Most of all I was struck in the article by the mention of the monument to Sudedey in Tuva, opened on 1 of September 2017. I really did not expect that this is possible in Russia. This is about how to erect a monument to Murat or Guderian.

[Edward Vashchenko]

friendship of Peoples

[VLR]

They consider him a "great countryman".
Another monument is at the entrance to the Bai-Taiginsky district:

In the comments to the last article, I have already uploaded this photo, but you probably missed it, look with whom they compare Shoigu in the album for his anniversary "Do your own thing":

:

[Pane Kohanku]

There is another monument at the entrance to the Bai-Taiginsky district

In the first photo - Subeday and his faithful cat?
Valery, I’m a little off topic. In Ancient Russia, if I am not mistaken, did they know cheetahs?

[VLR]

Seems Yes. They called them "Pardus." I read that in the "Svyatoslav Izbornik" there is an image of two cheetahs with collars hunting hares.

[Pane Kohanku]

I read that in the "Svyatoslav Izbornik" there is an image of two cheetahs with collars hunting hares.

and also, I remember, there is a message about how a "fierce beast" attacked the hunting Monomakh. Almost a lion!

[bubalik]

Suddenly the noise, and the cry, and the knock of swords,
And blood, and death, and there is no mercy!
That with Russian power Monomakh
The all-devastating appeared.

Alexander Degtev. Cheetah hunting. Vladimir Monomakh.

[Pane Kohanku]

Alexander Degtev. Cheetah hunting. Vladimir Monomakh.

class! but I wonder, in the south, in the steppe, then they lived?
and here’s another question: was falconry then only princely entertainment, or could the richer people (boyars, for example) also afford?
I did not understand at all why in my previous comment someone put a minus to me ....

and also, I remember, there is a message about how a "fierce beast" attacked the hunting Monomakh. Almost a lion!

why the hell ???? gremlins?

[VLR]

In medieval Europe, only members of the royal family could use gyrfalcons for hunting, peregrine falcons — dukes and counts, priest-hawks — priests.
This is from here: Silaeva O. History of domestication of birds. // Journal of Biology. No. 4. M., 2004, p. 23.

[Pane Kohanku]

In medieval Europe, only members of the royal family could use gyrfalcons for hunting, peregrine falcons — dukes and counts, priest-hawks — priests.

Wow! straight class division! and we have?
white gyrfalcons .. From Magidovich, about the viking voyage to America:
As a result of these hunting sea expeditions, the Normans discovered the Baffin Sea, the entire eastern coast of Fr. Baffin's Land, literally teeming in those days with white gyrfalcons, eiders and narwhals.
It turns out that gyrfalcons were delivered from the north!
Awesome site, according to the books of Magidovich, with comments: http://discover-history.com/
And in Russia, how was they hunted with birds of prey? .... Valery, I'm sorry that I was sick of questions!

[bubalik]

was falconry then only princely entertainment, or could the richer people (boyars, for example) also afford?

,, and simpler - peasants hunting with sparrows

[Pane Kohanku]

and easier peasants hunting with sparrows

or with a horned bear!

[3x3zsave]

On a bear - with hamsters. A hundred lemmings tear the bear apart!

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: bubalik

was falconry then only princely entertainment, or could the richer people (boyars, for example) also afford?

,, and simpler - peasants hunting with sparrows

Quote: Pan Kohanku

and easier peasants hunting with sparrows

or with a horned bear!

Quote: 3x3zsave

On a bear - with hamsters. A hundred lemmings tear the bear apart!

The guys could not resist!
He offered to hunt his cat in the ear!
Got an answer!

Well, you understand, I definitely can’t see the skins of a bear in the living room !!!

[3x3zsave]

We understood only one thing. Nefig animals on mammoths to drag, and then, offer small game! So she ignored.

[Yaik Cossack]

Yes, the Russian cheetahs knew well, they called it “pardus”. How they were tamed and used for hunting is still not known. Alas, they disappeared around the 15th century. In addition, tigers survived to the 19th century in Central Asia in turgai forests. They probably also lived in the lower Volga

[Sentinel-vs]

It seems to me, despite Wikipedia, that Lynx or leopards were called Pardus, but hardly cheetahs.

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: VlR

Another monument is at the entrance to the Bai-Taiginsky district:

So, for information. A Mongolian horse is good for everyone but one. It weighs an average of 270-280 pounds. This is modern, after a massive infusion in the 50s of Budyonnovsky blood. A classic Mongolian, purebred, in the region of 220-250 kilos, look at the pictures of the 30s. Why am I doing this? And probably to the fact that on the back the horse can drag about 1/5 of its weight. And then - disability and sausage shop. Anatomy however. And under the tabernacles with a photo, the Mongolian will die almost immediately. Yeah.
By the way. Another advantage of the Mongolians is their amazing speed. The average Mongolian woman, in terms of speed, loses to the average European about a third. Simply put, in terms of speed and maneuverability, the Mongolian cavalry is closer to the infantry than to the cavalry. That casts vague doubts about the ability of the Mongolian horsemen to perform some kind of maneuvers, losing at a speed of about 15 km / h. To put it simply, stories in the style of "circling, falling asleep with arrows, lured by false digressions," or outright delirium, or not about the Mongols. For the Mongols, on their nags, even the heaviest cavalry, on steyrop-like heavy trucks, will get it in 40-45 seconds. And the average is over 20, maximum 30.
Have you been to Naadam? I recommend visiting, admiring the races. A miserable sight, heartbreaking. At times heals from delirium, on the topic of the Mongol megakonnitsy. And one more thing. In times not mythical, but in those from which there are real documents, the Chinese drove mega-mobile Mongolian cavalry on foot. In the steppe. Yeah.

[3x3zsave]

Dear, how did you calculate these 15 km / h? I already admired your math and ability (seriously!), Remember? But now, "I am plagued by vague doubts."

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: 3x3zsave

Dear, how did you calculate these 15 km / h?

Racecourse of the city of Ulan Bator. See the results, record, then compare with the data of European women. Subject to proficiency in mathematics, at least within 4 classes they must cope.

[3x3zsave]

You excuse me, dear, but appealing to modern facts, sharply contradicts historical modeling. You already wrote once that transporting two and a half tons of minted copper for 5-10 km is a military operation, as for me, a half-squadron is quite enough.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: 3x3zsave

You already wrote once that transporting two and a half tons of minted copper on 5-10 km is a military operation, as for me, the floor of the squadron, is quite enough.

Did not quite understand. What is hammered copper?

[3x3zsave]

Stupidly coins, the weight of which operated on Lannan Shi in the previous cycle Ryzhkov.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: 3x3zsave

Stupidly coins, the weight of which operated this Shi

Phew ... Again I didn’t understand anything ... I’m stupid, right?

[3x3zsave]

Yes, everything is fine, Vladimir! Just read Ryzhkov’s cycle about Peter III, and comments.

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: 3x3zsave

You excuse me, dear, but appealing to modern facts, sharply contradicts historical modeling.

Translating into simple Russian - "yes, we are aware that our theories contradict all sciences, from geography with zoology to physics and mathematics, but the story is not about facts, it is about the adventures of elves and gnoms."

[Yaik Cossack]

You are fantasizing. I don’t know only who your amateurish thoughts are intended for. The history of the wars of Manchu China with the Oirats and the Khalkha-Mongols refutes all your fabrications. Mongols, for example Amursan, easily left the Manchu cavalry. Only when the subordinate Mongolian troops began to fight on the side of China did the advantage in mobility be lost.
In equestrian combat, even at the beginning of the 20 century, attacks and movements were not galloped. Step or trot, i.e. relatively slow. It was only in films that the horse masses raced .... Read the charters. The Kyrgyz horse, like the Mongolian one, is small, but very hardy. Got it. As far back as the 19th century, almost all of the Urals, Orenburg, and Siberian Cossacks rode them. But the Slavs are larger physically than the Mongols.

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: Yaitsky Cossack

Mongols, for example Amursan, easily left the Manchu cavalry.

Hee hee. Terelzh. The Chinese, dragging the wagons and Artoo, are driving the "mobile" Mongol cavalry.

Quote: Yaitsky Cossack

In equestrian combat, even at the beginning of the 20th century, attacks and movements were not carried out at a gallop. Step or trot, i.e. relatively slow.

Not even, namely in the 20th century. But even at 17m, the troops had some difficulties with maxims and three-rulers, and the enemy’s tight formation was broken at a gallop. Exclusion of Reitars with their Karakol.

Quote: Yaitsky Cossack

The Kyrgyz horse, like the Mongolian one, is small, but very hardy.

The average weight of a Kyrgyz woman, pure, is 350 kg. She is closer to the hussar (we are not talking about the winged, but about the light hussars) than to the Mongolian. A Mongolian woman is closer to a pony than a Kyrgyz woman. Have you ever seen a Mongolian woman live? Thoroughbred, not "haunted" by the Don and Budenovo admixtures? Not? And I saw and went. This is a real monkey. Just above the waist. With my 179 cm, to "get in the saddle", I actually had enough to throw my leg off the ground. Speed ​​is absent as a phenomenon. No, at the races, with a six-year-old rider, weighing half a pound, it still somehow can accelerate, but under my 56-57 kg, it shows a speed slightly higher than a running man. The chocolate, the horse I ride on, a cross between an Englishwoman and a bottom, will trot around a galloping monkey. In general, the European women have a record for 1600 meters - 1 min 36 sec, for Mongolians 2 m 4 sec. 30% faster. Even in theory, it doesn't smell of any fantastic endurance from Mongolians. In none of the 50x distance races, the steppe dwellers did not even come close to the 300 km shown by the Don and Terek in a day. We read a book about a horse, volume 1, Budyonny. In fact, the Mongolian - the horse of a degenerate living by the principle - never worked, and I never will. And its only advantage is the ability not to die of hunger while the sloth kumis sours. And to carry nonsense about the mega-mobile hordes of steppe stinkers on monkeys can only be a couch cavalryman, neither Mongolia, nor the Mongol, nor their "megalorses" have not seen.

Quote: Yaitsky Cossack

Got it.

Phew Do not disgrace. Fuck where the snow with her ears cover? The steppe horse is not a mole or a bulldozer. Raking snow, tens of tons, or digging burrows, poorly adapted.

[Yaik Cossack]

Madam, do some sports if you can, but the story is not yours. ))))
So the facts about Amursana and his movement from the Manchurian cavalry (I hope you understand the word “cavalry” at least) you could not refute, replacing them with slurred interjections. This is the time.

About "breaking the line" - you again begin to bustle. Yes, heavy cavalry (I hope the difference between heavy cavalry and Mongolian horse shooters), when struck with cold steel in the final segment, was accelerated for a short time. So what? Yes, the Mongols, too, if necessary, could disperse for a short time, and if necessary, even flee with a bait. But this does not refute my words at all. The main movements on the battlefield were slow. But for aimed archery, speed is generally contraindicated. These are two.

I omit your sports calculations because of unnecessity. I not only saw the Mongolian horse, I saw archival documents of horse repair of the Russian army with a description of the technical breeds.
You are talking nonsense by comparing a modern Kyrgyz horse with what was then. The current has already been improved in the Soviet stud farms. The then one was no different from the Mongolian. Rides on 1600 meters for speed from the then horses were not required. These are three.

I have been to Mongolia more than once. These are four.

To refute the reality of the Mongol campaigns is complete nonsense. Rather, the clinic. It's five.

I am not a sofa cavalryman, but a professional historian, therefore I do not claim your right to understand a saddle of a sports horse or grades of manure. This is six.

What is tebenevka - you also do not know. In a significant part of Mongolia and the Eurasian steppes there is no snow over the ears. A geographic guide to help you. This is seven.

[Yaik Cossack]

When attacking heavily armed cavalry (any), the maximum speed of the horse is not only unnecessary, but also harmful. This is not a race at the racetrack. There is a risk that the construction will be broken, someone will lag, or vice versa, will jump forward, and this is extremely dangerous. Instead of ramming, it may turn out to be embarrassing.
And further. From XIII to the acceleration greatly changed a person. Another modern tall lady weighs more in a swimsuit than a Mongol in his full armament))))
Here, someone else spoke of the direct swords of the Mongols as a suspicious detail. Just at the time of Genghis Khan, the classical Mongolian sword was straight, curved blades are found less archaeologically. And of course, all illustrations of Russian chronicles cannot serve as any evidence. They are much later and executed in a sketchy, rather iconographic and conditional manner. No one is surprised that on the icon George the Victorious (Roman warrior) wears the clothes of a medieval Russian prince)))))

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: Yaitsky Cossack

So the facts about Amursana and his movement from the Manchurian cavalry

The facts are that the Zins systematically caught and slaughtered Amursans. And the megaspeed nags of the latter somehow did not save.

Quote: Yaitsky Cossack

Yes, heavy cavalry (I hope the difference between heavy cavalry and Mongolian horse shooters), when struck with cold steel in the final segment, was accelerated for a short time.

A short?

Shire against kleisdal. Knightly horses are hung with envy, for the first breed is a ton and a quarter, the second is a ton without kopecks. The "short" acceleration time will be enough to catch up with the Mongolians. With a margin.

Quote: Yaitsky Cossack

Yes, the Mongols, too, if necessary, could accelerate for a short time,

Could. In one case. If a kindergartner is put on a Mongolian in training, as they do on a naadam. Under the armed rider, it is, in principle, unable to accelerate. I understand, they write stories, that's just horse physiology against. It is impossible to accelerate to 60 km, with a load under a centner, what 45 does not produce even without a load.

Quote: Yaitsky Cossack

I not only saw the Mongolian horse, I saw archival documents of horse repair of the Russian army with a description of the technical breeds.

Let me doubt both the first and the second. If you were at least a little concerned with the issues of horse riding, then Budyonny’s verdict about the unsuitability of steppe rocks for the ranks, due to the wretchedness of speed, load-bearing capacity and categorically indigestible humid climate, in which the steppes die quickly and efficiently, is impossible to miss.

Quote: Yaitsky Cossack

You are talking nonsense by comparing a modern Kyrgyz horse with what was then. The current has already been improved in the Soviet stud farms.

So ... For info. What you call the Kyrgyz breed is not. Actually, the Kyrgyz people are about 50 years old. This is a new Kyrgyz breed. And it weighs 400+. And not 350 as a pure Kyrgyz.

Quote: Yaitsky Cossack

Races at 1600 meters for speed from the then horses were not required.

Ugums. From your point of view, speed is generally an excessive indicator for cavalry. She moved only by step.

Quote: Yaitsky Cossack

I am not a sofa cavalryman, but a professional historian, therefore I do not pretend to

Knowledge in any field.

Quote: Yaitsky Cossack

What is tebenevka - you also do not know.

Tebenevka is moving at a speed of 500-600 meters per day. During which the unfortunate cattle eats half-rotten scraps, with near-zero nutritional value. And since there are catastrophically small scraps, and they also need to be scratched out from under the snow, this process takes up all the free time from sleep. And these very 500 meters per day limit the mobility of the Mongolian cavalry in the winter.

Quote: Yaitsky Cossack

In a significant part of Mongolia and the Eurasian steppes there is no snow over the ears.

But it happens in Russia. I have a miniseries behind the fence. Everyone loves honey, and the extra 40-50 thousand, they are not superfluous. In February, the inspection did. Despite the winters with little snow, she hooted ... Hmm ... Well, let's say, in the ass. I had to take a shovel. And even 50 years ago, on a field near Moscow, a Mongol would head off into the snow. What nafig you? And to feed the grain, the grass horse will die on the grain. What nafig invasion of the steppe? 600 kilos of hay per horse's face per month, minimum. If this muzzle is working in the cold, and not dug in a stall. Hay is not oats, hay per 1 feed unit leaves 3 times more. 3,5 tons per horse, campaign 1-37. 38 kilotons per tumen. 105-300 thousand for the entire army. What the fuck are the Mongols? With half a million tons of convoys? A completely pro army came to Russia, in which the cavalry was, of course, but its percentage did not even approach 500. And this cavalry was quite settled, oatmeal. In a different scenario ... Either the Mongols die of hunger, or they build the railway, and drive the hay with echelons. That's just horse physiology against winter runs of steppe women, but in Vladimir forests.

[Severomor]

Quote: Lannan Shi

And these very 500 meters per day limit the mobility of the Mongolian cavalry in the winter.

5+ points. Bravo, the pluses do not give VO more to put))). Here it is the magic word "tebenyovka". But fans of 100+ (sometimes 300+, and sometimes 40+! (Achievement, however)) of the thousandth Mongol army often talk about straw on roofs in villages and expropriation of horse feed from the population.

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: Severomor

often talk about straw on roofs in villages

Fodder units in rotten straw, on the roof that is lying down, God forbid, 0,1-0,15 in kilograms. A horse that cuts around the clock in the cold, and with a load, needs to be in the region of 12. Well, at a discount on the rickety Mongolok - about 10. Chew 70-100 kilos. Somewhere under the stomach of an elephant is a bullet.

Quote: Severomor

and expropriation of horse feed in the population.

Again parquet. But this time, farmers. Not even suspecting how scarce hay is in the forests, and how few cattle were ... Cut down the forest for pastures and hayfields? When are there not enough hands on the fields? Oh yes ... Gentlemen know a lot about perversions.

[Yaik Cossack]

You heard a ringing, but did not understand what it was about. In Russia, the Mongol horses did not chase. Tebenevka was used up to the 20 century in the Black Sea, Volga, Kazakhstan steppes and part of the Gobi. Tebenevka allowed to sharply reduce the harvesting of fodder for the winter. At the same time, all nomads were perfectly able to harvest hay.
Tebenevka made it possible to facilitate the campaigns of nomads in winter and spring, reducing the volume of transported reserves. At the same time, the army marched a certain distance, and then stopped to rest for several days, dismissing the horses for tebenevka.

Stop, carried away, why am I telling all this to people who do not need knowledge, they are already convinced that there could not be any campaigns by the Mongols (and hence the Huns, Turks, Avars, Khazars, Pechenegs, Guz, Kipchaks, Kalmyks) at all. ...

[Yaik Cossack]

Well, you are from the sect of the Novokhronoltsev)))) But I didn’t see it right away. They would say so ... I would not waste my time.
Apiary, Masek, Mongols, snow on the ass .... after all, the obvious symptoms.
I apologize, the history of the new chronology has nothing to do.
It is rather a subject for the study of deviant suggestibility of people or entomology ....))))

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: Yaitsky Cossack

Well, you are from the sect of Novohronolzhtsev)

Yes Yes. And our head is Uncle Sema Budyonny. 70 years ago, he explained that the Mongolian Tumens go through the section of psychiatry, not history. But he is only the leader of real Tumens, not fantasy ones. Now, if he rode around the kitchen, on a stool, in a raid on the refrigerator, like a pro historian, then yes. Then there would be authority, and so - a miserable upstart.

[Sentinel-vs]

Honestly, I am far from historical regalia and from horse breeding knowledge, but Lannan Shi's arguments look more convincing than opponents.

[Yaik Cossack]

You don’t even know that you are still far from a lot, since you don’t understand the difference between the words “realities” and “regalia”))))

If the argument for the truth of the existence of the Genghis Khan power is some interpretation by Fomenkovets of the texts of veterinarians of horsemen and horse traders published under the name of the illiterate (wrote with spelling errors) Marshal Budyonny, as well as the empty stream of poorly structured consciousness of Madame Hippologist, then spending time on your education is counterproductive.

Why are you reading the author’s article if you are sure that the Mongols were not there, since they could not quickly ride horses, and Russia was not there either, Batu is Batya, he is Caesar, he is Columbus, he is Peter the Great, the dead as a result of the atomic war of the Tatars among themselves))))))
I dare no longer interfere with such highly learned people.

[Sentinel-vs]

You would rather than read emoticons, like a schoolboy, read carefully what they write. I meant precisely the regalia with which you poke your interlocutors, they say a professional historian.
The arguments for me are precisely the arguments, and not the baseless accusations of misunderstanding and putting up the labels of false synchronizers, Fomenkovites, etc.
From the side, your remarks for the most part carry the message - It is customary to interpret the history of those events, and all those who do it differently cannot do this! Because it is so accepted !!!
And finally, do not try to read my mind, you can’t. You do not know what I think about the Mongols, about Russia, etc., but again you are arranging some kind of clowning with smiles, comrade professional historian.

[Yaik Cossack]

So you just see the arguments, but where you see you don’t understand))))))
Madame essentially writes - the Mongolian horse is weak and slow, it won’t raise a warrior, Budyonny also said that these horses were unsuitable for cavalry, there was no feed for Mongols in Russia, so there was no Mongol campaign in Russia.
By the way, all this has been refuted by facts and calculations many times.
I answer Madame - what about the Cossacks of some of our troops? They safely rode and fought on the same small and slow horses in the 19th century, to the railways. What about the Ural, Orenburg, Siberian and Transbaikal Cossacks? Transbaikal residents are all Mongolian. In the archives there is data on the equestrian composition.
In response - boo boo boo apiary, snow on the ass, etc. That is a departure from the topic.
God be with you of course. You probably won’t understand again, but I don’t care.
Well, they made a good laugh about professionalism. When you treat your teeth, then you will go to a professional? Or a vet, but an expert on Mongolian horses?
So, historical science is also a profession. It takes a long time to learn and to know a lot.
By the way, in your answer, excuse me, you again showed a weak acquaintance with the Russian language. Calling myself a historian, I simply indicated my profession. But just the regalia - awards, scientific titles, etc. - I have not a word about them))) I’m not going to list them to you.
Do not flatter yourself, your thoughts are of little interest to me. Yes, you didn’t state them on this issue, but only said that the forum’s participant’s discussions “seem” more correct to you. It may also “seem” to you that the earth is flat, but what do I think about health)))
I’m writing more likely not for you, but for those who can think logically.
Novochronology, as a phenomenon, has long lived not according to the laws of logical knowledge, but according to the principles of a religious sect.

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: Yaitsky Cossack

I answer Madame - what about the Cossacks of some of our troops? They safely rode and fought on the same small and slow horses in the XNUMXth century, to the railways. What about the Ural, Orenburg, Siberian and Transbaikal Cossacks? Transbaikal residents are all Mongolian.

Rave. Heavy. Photo Transbaikal and Ussuri. Oh, and the Orenburgers. Find the Mongol.

Transbaikal fish are present. Yes. Just do not give them as a Mongol. Transbaikal, on average, 10 cm higher and much more massive. It is even heavier than the Kyrgyz, flush with the New Kyrgyz breed. The classic hussar horse does not reach 40-50 kilos, and is almost twice as heavy as the Mongols.

Quote: Yaitsky Cossack

So, historical science is also a profession. It takes a long time to learn and to know a lot.

What nafig knowledge? So, to say that they say a Mongolian weighing 230-240 kilos, and a zayalka of 400, is the same thing, and about the knowledge tryndat? For you, apparently, the Renault FT with the T-80 are twins and brothers. 2 caterpillars, one gun each, and the rest are small parts.

[Operator]

Quote: Lannan Shi

Mongolian weighing 230-240 kilos

Type of donkey

[Russia]

Quote: Operator

Quote: Lannan Shi

Mongolian weighing 230-240 kilos

Type of donkey

Give the lady a dissertation to write, do not be so cool.

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: Rusland

Give the lady a thesis

Will not work. I have an anti-historical mindset. I can’t take “documents” as sources, in which “eyewitnesses” are seriously telling about the Volga flowing into the Black Sea, Siberia inhabited by werewolves, floods in the deserts of Mongolia, khans of their warriors for breakfast frying, khan's wives, eating shit and the like nonsense. If chu, this is a very short excerpt from what is passed off as one of the main descriptions of the "Mongol Empire".
I take this work as a fantasy, very base, and outstanding it for historical documents ... As not quite adequate, or completely unscrupulous people. So ... Without me such dissertations.

[Operator]

Lannan Shi - my photo is in your support.

[ver_]

..I have happened to watch a newsreel about Sukhe Bator, a national hero of the MPR .. There were like Mongols jumping from a hill .. This sight is not for the faint of heart - a group of dangers in the dust - without saddles and stirrups (hoop) with straight legs (compasses) almost on the ground with their feet they depicted * lava * .. This can only be seen in a bad dream ... Who cares, you can search it on the Internet ..- documentary footage ..

[Yaik Cossack]

Yes, I agree, you have nonsense, and heavy))))

Based on some photos from the network, your thesis is impossible to prove. The photos probably date back to the beginning of the 20 century, when long-term improvement of the breed began to affect. The War Department was constantly raising requirements for horse growth, trying to unify the appearance of Cossacks with regular cavalry. So the Cossacks had to buy such at their own expense. Officers generally received horses at the expense of the army and bought them at factories. So with the help of veterinary medicine and random photos you do not refute the complex of historical sources))))

Nor can you prove the differences between the natural Buryat horses of the Transbaikal Cossacks and the Mongol.
And there is also archival data about the Ural Cossacks. Reports on how, from the point of view of regular cavalry, poor and undersized equestrian composition. ))))

But I, as a well-mannered person, will no longer waste my time on such a “discussion” when you cannot answer in essence. Remain convinced that there were no equestrian campaigns of the Mongols in Russia and collect the pluses from the same stubborn ones))))

Yes, tell the mathematician Fomenko that the multiplication table is also falsified by the Scaligerian enemies of Russia-Horde))

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: Yaitsky Cossack

But I, as a well-mannered person, will no longer waste my time on such a “discussion” when you cannot answer in essence.

The answer is essentially given to you. Photos on Transbaikal. You can’t confirm your conjectures about the Cossacks who fought in megalashades, a little larger than a large mastiff. Words - I am a historian, as I see it, personally for me is not an argument.

[Yaik Cossack]

All those interested can even see on the Internet that there are no significant differences between the Buryat (Transbaikal) and Mongolian traditional breeds. Both are the most undersized.

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: Lannan Shi

Words - I am a historian, as I see it, personally for me is not an argument

Quote: Yaitsky Cossack

All interested can see ...

Come on ... argue with an amateur, let alone with a militant amateur ... I know many ways to spend time more useful

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: Lannan Shi

Now, if he rode around the kitchen, on a stool, in a raid on the refrigerator, like a historian pro, then yes

But they also say that arrogance is the second happiness.

And here I am reading this commentary, and I understand that for some - it is the first ... and the only thing, the campaign

[Russia]

Quote: Golovan Jack

Quote: Lannan Shi

Now, if he rode around the kitchen, on a stool, in a raid on the refrigerator, like a historian pro, then yes

But they also say that arrogance is the second happiness.

And here I am reading this commentary, and I understand that for some - it is the first ... and the only thing, the campaign

Greetings, Friend Here, the ladies need a different approach, even if it is of eastern origin supposedly, but let's say classic. According to Gogol, it sounds like this: "All women are witches, and those that are older are certainly witches" ("Viy").

[Terenin]

Quote: Rusland

"All women are witches, and those that are older are certainly witches"

Want a female warmth? Burn the witch!

[swyatoslav]

Class! Now (the only remaining) opponent will begin to be rude, curse what the world is worth doubting the official history (the arguments have ended), but can’t admit it .....
Lannan Shi - Well done.

[icelord]

Oh, and ignorance, if loud ears would wilt

[icelord]

This is a very "smart" girl for comments.

[Sadam]

Shoigu and Subedeus)))) this is parallel .... smiled

[protoss]

Well, he’s also a Uryanch, i.e. like a Tuvinian. for such a small nation, the figure is more than significant, then you will look and make a shoigu bust

[Edward Vashchenko]

In The Legend of Kolovrat, perhaps the most shameful historical film in the history of Russian and Soviet cinema, Fedor Yuryevich bravely fights with the Mongols in front of a transvestite-looking Batu Khan, and his retinue, led by the boyar Yevpata, boldly runs away , leaving the protected person to the mercy of fate.

I absolutely support, not a film, but a guard.

[Sentinel-vs]

We tried to copy "300 Spartans" by Zach Snyder in style. It turned out the same fantasy.

[Edward Vashchenko]

It would be better if they didn’t try to copy, until we start creating our own films based on our own patterns, there will be no sense in historical cinema.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: Edward Vashchenko

It would be better if they didn’t try to copy, until we start creating our own films based on our own patterns, there will be no sense in historical cinema.

Pancake! Edward, and we have such patterns. For example, And flowers grow on stones.

[Edward Vashchenko]

I agree, a great movie!

[Gaersul]

Quote: Kote pane Kohanka

And flowers grow on the stones.

It seems all the same as trees.

[VLR]

The creators of "300 Spartans" did not make Leonid a mentally handicapped invalid, for which, as it turned out now, gratitude must be declared to them.

[Edward Vashchenko]

That you correctly noticed - to the point

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: Eduard Vaschenko

not a movie, but a guard

As well as "Viking", "Skif" and other attempts to film something on a medieval theme. The best film about the Middle Ages - "Game of Thrones". And then, only the first three seasons.

[Edward Vashchenko]

Michael,
Oh sure!
From the latest TV series I like "The Last Kingdom", maybe there are a lot of exaggerations, but painfully colorful ones are given with tinted eyes))) and horses covered with sheep skins, like those of modern English horse guards, if they hadn't fought karate ...

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Trilobite Master

"Game of Thrones". And then, only the first three seasons.

Five. Those. while Martin was advising.

[Trilobite Master]

Valery, why in the article there is not a word about the battle on r. Voronezh? Did you find this event so insignificant?
The fact is that after the execution of Fedor at Batu headquarters, the Ryazan princes, without waiting for the Mongols to approach their city, led the squads into the field and gave Bat a field battle.
It is very beautifully written about this in "The Tale of the Ruin of Ryazan"

And he went against the wicked king Batu, and they met him near the borders of Ryazan, and attacked him, and began to fight with him firmly and courageously, and was cross section of evil and terrible. Many strong Batyev regiments fell. And King Batu saw that the Ryazan force was beating firmly and courageously, and was frightened. But who will stand against the wrath of God! The Baty’s forces were great and irresistible; one Ryazan fought with a thousand, and two with ten thousand. And the great prince saw the slaughter of his brother, Prince Davyd Ingvarevich, and exclaimed in the grief of his soul: “O my dear brother! Prince Davyd, our brother, drank our cup before us, but will we not drink this cup! ”And they moved from horse to horse and began to fight hard; through many strong regiments Batyevs drove through, bravely and courageously beating, so that all Tatar regiments marvel at the fortress and courage of the Ryazan army. And their strong Tatar regiments barely defeated them. The noble Grand Duke Yuri Ingvarevich, his brother Prince Davyd Ingvarevich of Murom, his brother Prince Gleb Ingvarevich Kolomensky, their brother Vsevolod Pronsky and many local princes and governors strong and the army: the daredevils and frolics of Ryazan were killed. All the same, they died and drank a single mortal chalice. None of them turned back, but all died dead together. God made all these things sin for our sake.

Was this battle really left out of the scope of the article simply because it did not fit into the concept of "cowardly submission" of the Ryazan princes?

[VLR]

Well, why, I mention this:
"Having defeated the Ryazan troops that came out against them in the border battle (three princes were killed in it ..."
I just don’t want to retell everything, duplicating textbooks.

[Korsar4]

But it is true that the battle on the Voronezh River is less frequently mentioned.

Is it because of the subsequent confrontation between Moscow and Ryazan?

[SokolfromRussia]

It is questioned by a number of researchers, since it is not mentioned in most of the chronicles and is known mainly from "The Tale of the Ruin of Ryazan by Batu". Well, the quality of modern textbooks is a separate issue.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: SokolfromRussia

It is called into question by a number of researchers, since most chronicles do not mention

I agree, there are certain doubts. But most researchers still believe that there was a battle after all. Many details of the "Tale" are embellished in a purely literary way, but the factual basis itself, most likely, took place.

[SokolfromRussia]

Yes, Likhachev noted that the author of the "Tale" had at his disposal the later lost Ryazan chronicle, fragments of which were preserved in the chronicles of Veliky Novgorod. Therefore, the texture in the Tale is quite accurate. And the details that he did not know, he drew from folk legends. Apparently, hence the mistakes with the names of the princes participating in the events.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: SokolfromRussia

mistakes with the names of princes

Yes, in the "Tale" some princes are named among those who died in Voronezh, while other chronicles mark their deaths in other places - in Ryazan and near Kolomna. I don't remember the specific names now.

[SokolfromRussia]

Not only. It mentions Prince of Murom Davyd Yuryevich, who actually died in 1228, and the death of Oleg Ingvarevich is mentioned, although he was captured and died in 1252.

[SokolfromRussia]

Obviously, the Ryazan princes were quite brave and independent. They realized that the Horde would not be able to defeat one on one, they sent for help and tried to buy time by negotiation.

[alexey alexeyev_2]

I’m looking at the illustrations and I don’t see the difference between the narrow-eyed cheekbone Mongols and their victims. Both of them, judging by their faces, are Slavs .. Even the details of the armor and weapons match

[SokolfromRussia]

Because these miniatures were drawn centuries after the invasion. And their author hardly had an idea how these same Mongols look. In addition, he might not have set himself the task of reflecting in detail their appearance, etc.

[alexey alexeyev_2]

Mdya ... The proverb "lies as an eyewitness" for more than one hundred years

[alexey alexeyev_2]

But the author, describing and drawing, relied on later chronicles and records. He didn’t invent it all from his head. And look at the very first miniature. The warriors were there on horseback with characteristic hairstyles-settled horses. Such a outfit was worn by Svyatoslav and later Cossacks .. .At the same time, the brodniks living on the Don are mentioned in the annals .. Somehow they quickly found a common language with the devils who came from nowhere. Yes, and the Hungarian king Bela asking for help in the attack of Batu and listing the peoples included in this army as it did not mention the Mongols .. All listed and the Mongols hesitated ..

[Trapperxnumx]

and this is how Lenin is portrayed. And this is a completely modern image, when the original is certainly known. For me, so here he is a spilled Chinese. But this does not change its origin, right?

[Trilobite Master]

By the way, Valery, what is this strange genealogical tablet at the beginning of the article? I wonder who its author is, because it is teeming with errors.
For example, it states that the rulers of the Golden Horde are the descendants of Batu, and the rulers of the Chagatai ulus are the descendants of Ugedei. The descendants of Berke ruled the Golden Horde (the Batuid dynasty ceased at Ulagchi), and the descendants of Chagatai (up to the point of complete disintegration), up to its complete collapse, ruled the Chagatai ulus.
And more.
Nevertheless, it seems to me that the way you describe the relationship between Russia and the Mongol Empire after the invasion at the beginning of the 40's does not quite correspond to reality.
Firstly, the first mentions of tribute in the annals appear in the 1245, that is, precisely by this time, the relations of the Mongols and Russia took the form of vassals.
Secondly, Nevryuyev’s army of 1253 was considered by modern scholars to be the result of not the intrigues of Alexander, but the policies of his brother Andrei, who refused to conduct a census. As a result, the census was nevertheless carried out, but this disobedience to Russia was worth a lot of blood. Plus, to control the collection of tribute to Russia came imperial (not Horde) Basque. However, you did not mention that already in 1263, as a result of several uprisings, these Basques were killed in many places. Since they represented the interests of the empire, rather than the ulus of Jochi, whose rulers were in opposition to the Great Khan, this uprising did not have serious consequences for Russia, but the princes were again entrusted with collecting taxes.
Thirdly, you write:

Russian losses were great, but their armies did not cease to exist, others took the place of the dead princes, from the same dynasty, rich and strong Novgorod remained unharmed.

I will not criticize your use of the term "army", but I want to note that the armed forces of Russia at that time consisted of a few, but highly professional soldiers, the training of which was very long and was very expensive. So, these soldiers in the battles in Voronezh, near Kolomna and in the City were almost completely knocked out. There was no one to replace them.
In fact, only the squads of Yaroslav and Alexander, plus the city regiment of Novgorod, survived in the north-west of Russia. The Smolensk principality by that time had already completely weakened under the permanent onslaught of Lithuania, the South Russian principalities had exhausted themselves in mutual strife even earlier, before the invasion. Losses in people among the peasant population, whatever they were (although they were very high, according to modern estimates about 15%), could not have any effect on the manning of the armed forces.
I am here in my fervor, while I was only criticizing you, completely forgetting the principle "if you want to criticize, first praise."
In general, I rather liked the article, at least more than the previous one. Despite the fact that I strongly disagree with your derogatory assessment of the personality of Russian princes and their policies in the second half of the 13th century, I believe that your publications are needed in general (with reader comments, of course ) are useful.

[SokolfromRussia]

The team of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, as M. B. Eliseev noted in his works, partially died during the defense of Pereslavl-Zalessky and Tver. And Alexander Yaroslavich was a young prince, it is unlikely that his squad was great.

[karabass]

What is your opinion about skates? do you agree with hooves?

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: karabass

What is your opinion about skates? do you agree with hooves?

Once again, please, and in a form more accessible to my understanding.

[karabass]

According to your comments, I realized that you are fond of the history of the ancient Mongols and know a lot from it. I thought that maybe you are also fond of the history of the Golden Horde like me. I wanted to discuss the Zolotordyn hogs and skates if you know what it is, if not, I apologize

[Trilobite Master]

No, unknown, but interested. So what is it?

[karabass]

Historians still argue about skates about their purpose (excavated in great numbers, polished tibia sawn in half with 2 holes) - the purpose is unknown. It looks like ice skates, they even say they tried to skate on ice, it turned out Kopylushki - the inhabitants of the Golden Horde wore sets of several pieces on their belts, historians believe that to clean the ears (they have many types and shapes, the sizes are the same) But I probably made a discovery - they are not at all for ear cleaning, but unfortunately it is impossible to prove my version, as well as to refute - there are no documents (at all)

[Trilobite Master]

I know kopilushki under the name "kopoushki".
No, unfortunately, I was not interested in this topic, so I cannot be called a worthy interlocutor in it.

[vladcub]

Mikhail, to you ++ (one stands, and the other in advance): with two hands I sign up for your company

[Seal]

And as soon as people are not tired of pouring from empty to empty?
Shagys Khan, or in our pronunciation, Genghis Khan, is any Khan living (ruling) east of the place on which the observer stands.
But Batys Khan (Batu, Batu Khan) is any khan living (ruling) west of the place where the observer stands.
If the observer moves west, then the khan who was Batys Khan yesterday for the observer (since he was west of the observation point) today has become Shagys-Khan, since he has become east of the observation point.
And for Europe, they are all exclusively Shagys-khans (Genghis-khans). Therefore, it was necessary to mold from the western khans (batys-khans) a certain "grandson of Genghis Khan" - Baty.

Initially, the "Tatar yoke" was an invention of Catholic Poles, who sought to present Poland as such a last outpost of European civilization in Eastern Europe. Behind which there are already semi-savage barbarians who have just emerged from under the "Tatar yoke". Then, when, in the course of the Napoleonic troops, the Europeans saw real Tatars in Europe and Paris and were surprised that these Tatars - exactly the same Europeans as themselves - European historians quickly began to transform the "Tatar yoke" first into the Tatar-Mongol yoke, then into "Mongol-Tatar", and now often even we ourselves are limited to one "Mongolian". And the Khalkha nation was appointed to the post of the Mongols. ..
Why was the term "Mongols" chosen, more precisely "Mughals"? Most likely because at that time, in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, on everyone's lips in Europe were the richest Great Mughals who then ruled in India and considered themselves (like the Chinese) the rulers of Asia. And the Europeans knew that the Great Mongols were aliens in India. So they decided that the ancestors of the current Great Mughals by that time, before coming to India, could well have been the carriers of the yoke here, in Russia. :)))
And when the Europeans finally got to that part of the territory of China, which is now a sovereign country of Mongolia and began to ask the local Hulk about "their great ancestor Chinggis Khan", it turned out to the disappointment of the Europeans that the local Hulk had no idea about any Genghis Khan ... Then the "white people" began to enlighten the "unreasonable hulk", beautifully telling what a great ancestor they had.
The Hulk were certainly surprised, but the version with the great ancestor was accepted. Who doesn't want to have great ancestors? And now the Hulk already really consider themselves the descendants of "those Mongols" and can tell everything about Genghis Khan. The main thing is that more tourists come. From the brand of Chinggis Khan, the commercialized Halka Mongols have already learned to make a very good gesheft. Look, even coins are stamped.
Likewise, when the Swedes had to designate the rights to the "Kemsk volost" - the Swede Peter Petrei created a theory that once the Vikings, who are Swedes, were called to rule in Russia. Well, our liberals, (they were at all times) already looking to the West, enthusiastically picked up these theories that yes, here we are, sivolapy, we were under the yoke for 300 years, And before that we could not figure it out among ourselves - the Vikings had to from overseas to call to rule us. Ugh..
This liberalistic anti-popular and anti-Russian version of the supposedly former Tatar-Mongol yoke is designed to justify the possibility of external foreign government in Russia. Pro-Western propagandists of the yoke instilled and still instill in our people that they say there is nothing to worry about, they say in the history of Russia it was even worse - but after all, they survived. Liberators foaming at their mouths convince us that "Lapotnaya authoritarian Russia" needs to live under the external control of the "democratic enlightened West" and that "Only under this external control of the West can we grow wiser."
They inspire day and night that there is nothing to worry about in this (external control of the West), because we already had a period of external control, when the “Mongol-Tatars” allegedly conquered us. And even a "yoke" imposed. And we supposedly lived for 300 years under the “yoke” !! But then we wiser from the yoke, gathered our courage and strength, and threw off this “yoke”.
So that you (the people), the main thing is not to worry, you people calmly accept the leadership of the enlightened civilized West. And there someday, under this sensitive guidance of the WEST, everything will return to normal. May be. Years in 200-300. As then" .
No, gentlemen liberals! Nothing will return to normal by itself if we ourselves do not take action now. Our land cannot be given to anyone. And it is all the more impossible to go under the external control of the West. In fact, our ancestors did not bow to any Tatar-Mongols and did not go under their "yoke". None of the birch bark letters ever contain the words: "Tatar", "Mongol", Mongol-Tatar ";" Tatar-Mongol ", Baskak", "Khan," Great Khan "," Horde "," yoke ", "Batu", etc. But the current liberals, relying on Karamzin, spit in the soul of our ancestors, who did not suspect that they were "under the yoke."

[vladcub]

"there are no words:" Tatar "," Mongol "naturally then the expression was used:" filthy "

[vladcub]

Is Stalin also a libraist? After all, Stalin treated Peter the Great with respect. If Stalin had a negative attitude towards Peter the Great, a book would appear: "Peter 1"

[Han Tengri]

It’s so good that the Internet was sent to you, in the ward!

[tanit]

Tell me, and using photographs from the 21st century, you can really recreate the steppe of the 13th century (this is the last article in the cycle) Seriously? Is Evpatiy Colorath a real person? And Mercury Smolensky, then too?
Arabs can be trusted, there are no Russian chronicles. And vice versa, when the author is beneficial. Ingenious.
Ahem ...
And, the author, the creators of the films Skif and Viking, their
"creation" was called "historical"
The legend of Kolovrat does not pretend to be historic. Heroic Fantasy.
With respect.

[tanit]

And by the way, The Legend of .. Shows a beautiful Russian city. And the beautiful people living in it. For the first time in the dismal squalor of all the other films "historian a la rus". (Yaroslav, Viking, Vladimir) However, this is just my opinion. The historian knows better.
With respect.

[tanit]

So, I catch the first cons. That's good.)))
I suppose that from fans of the "beautiful" and without a doubt the best "historical" Wigings and Scythians?))
If from supporters of cognition from photographs, it’s not funny.
With respect.

[tanit]

Continue the fun?
"From Pronsk, Murom, Kolomna. Three brothers went to save Ryazan" ...
Heroically. Handsomely.
Poems have already become - "scientific approach"?)))
UHHUZH, and for a long time ?!)))

[tanit]

I will continue the fun. (with goose water-what a styrofoam axes)
Zolotarevka. Under the present city of Penza. There someone fought to the last, evil and desperately against the Mongols.
Come up with Evpathy)))

[tanit]

OH .. Conjecture the "truth")))

[Korsar4]

How can Zolotaryovka be connected with Evpathy Kolovrat?

[colotun]

The fourth century AD - Attila conquers Western Europe. Atilla's banners depict an equilateral cross and a golden double-headed eagle.
The twelfth century AD - Genghis Khan and Batu conquer Western Europe.
The historical emblem of the Golden Horde is a golden double-headed eagle (only without three crowns). Also, the golden double-headed eagle is the family coat of arms of Genghis Khan.
The Russian Empire was created from the East, and not from the West.
What did the specific Russian princes do during the period of feudal fragmentation in Russia (11-12 centuries)?
They slaughtered each other in the struggle for power, ruthlessly ruining the neighboring lands and Russian cities.
When the Mongol-Tatars united them, they forbade them to fight with each other, told them: "You are now one country, one people." And after a few generations, the Russian people in Central Russia stopped considering their neighbors as enemies.
In Ivan the Terrible, the blood of the Rurikovich and the khans of the Golden Horde (through his mother, Elena Glinskaya) was combined, and this explosive incendiary mixture splashed out in the form of a passionary union of the three pillars of Russian statehood - the union of Slavs, Turks and Finno-Ugrians = the Moscow, Vladimir, Suzdal principalities were united , Novgorod and the Golden Horde = Great Empire revived in a new guise again.
Orthodox prayer ends with the word AMEN, Catholic prayer ends with the word OMEN, Muslim prayer ends with the word EMEN. Also known is the Indian Buddhist mantra OM-MAN.
And there is the Turkic word AMAN = have mercy and mercy. And these are not the only traces of the Turkic origin of the Christian faith (reference to Academician Oparin).
And there was also a great medieval empire that conquered including China (QIN dynasty = Golden Dynasty) and India (Great Mughals).
It is interesting that on the territory of our country of Russia, approximately within the borders of the former Soviet Union, there were five empires: - the first empire was at Attila (4-5 century AD), the second empire was at Genghis Khan (11-12 century AD) , the third empire is the Romanovs, the fourth empire is the Soviet Union and the fifth empire is the Russian Federation now.
The Russian nation came from the merger of three different nations - Slavs, Turks (including Tatars) and Finno-Ugrians.
And for one and a half thousand years on the territory of our great united country people of different nationalities live, as one people.

[vladcub]

colotun, but you do not confuse the Golden Horde and Byzantium?
Remember: "Moscow is the third Rome and there won't be a fourth"

[vladcub]

Quote: Senior Sailor

In principle, there could not be Genghis blood, since Jochi is a Merkit apprx. Borte gave birth to him while she was in captivity.

Another question is who is dad: a legitimate husband or an unknown warrior.
Women are cunning on this score: and in the 21st century. our brother is easily bred, but then ....

[Yaik Cossack]

The author pays tribute to the anti-scientific Gumilevschina, idealizing the steppes and demonizing the Russians. Did the Mongols kill the Russian Ryazan ambassadors? Well, nope .... the author exclaims without proof, well, they couldn’t demand wives, this is a simple misunderstanding. Well, when the Russians killed the Mongolian ambassadors (not noble) - a crime, treachery, then they themselves are to blame for everything.

Gumilyov was a talented writer, but a forger. He, after all the troubles of his family, after the Soviet concentration camp, hated the Soviets, so in defiance of officialdom he began to praise the Mongols in every possible way. Well, when Turkic nationalism took shape in the USSR, Gumilev came in handy.

The Mongolian state was parasitic in nature, lived by robbery and exploitation of the conquered peoples. China and Central Asia in general were subjected to total destruction, almost genocide. According to historians, the victims of the Mongol wars of conquest are monstrous for that time - about 10-15 million people. So Genghis is medieval Hitler))))

[vladcub]

Quote: Aleksey Alekseev_2

Purchase

Naturally, after all, Genghis Khan was only able to twist the tails of horses, and all these invasions of ruin are ancient Russians. It seems so Samsonov tells?

[3x3zsave]

My respect, Valery! Wonderful cycle! I read with great pleasure! You will excuse me for distorting your last name, it's not me, it's T9, be he happy (((((, on the new phone.

[Astra wild]

Valery, I read your story with great pleasure. I am pleased that you did not leave us for a long time.
I do not possess such erudition as, for example, Mikhail "Trilobite" V.O. and some others, but a remark based on logic.
"There is no one to tell about the intricacies of Mongolian etiquette," and why do you not take into account the then merchants? Of course, merchants could not be present at the khan's table, but they could know the basics of Mongolian etiquette, and this already means a lot.
Why not assume a provocation? You yourself wrote that: "The Chingizids quarreled among themselves," why not suppose that Guyuk, Buri, or someone from their retinue, could have hit the Russian quietly, and he from the heart moved the Mongol in the presence of Batukhan. Or some other provocation. After all, the Mongols already had an idea of ​​the Russians and their customs. It seems to me that my version is plausible

[Korsar4]

Sorry, but this already looks like a variant of children's historical anecdotes. Guyuk Khan tripping up is an almost finished plot for Yeralash.

Really tough time. But ambassadors are always at risk: incarnate until Obreskov, or our time - also an ambassador to Turkey.

Only a change of scenery.

[Astra wild]

"Guyuk-khan tripping up", but read from the author: "Guyuk or Buri, who wants to end the negotiations" I just expressed my vision on the basis of what I read

[Bar2]

here is the plan of the city of Beijing for 1752. Philip Bouache. It is written that this is the Tartar and Chinese city of Beijing.
Question to Valery Ryzhov, where did the tartars come from in the middle of the 18th century? According to history, China has long been conquered by some sort of Manchus i.e. Tungus.

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b7200296z/f13.item.r=ville%20tartare.zoom

[Bar2]

or here is the 1842 map of Marmochi Francesco, we see that on the continent there is a Tartar manche or mancho, what is it?
And the sea is called the Tartar Sea, now it is for some reason called the Japanese. From this Tartar Sea there is only the Tartar Strait between Sakhalin-Sokolin Aul and the continent.
The same question to Ryzhov, what kind of Tartar names are on the maps of the 19th century?

https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~304679~90075091:Asia---Divisa-nei-suoi-principali-s?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No#

[GTYCBJYTH2021]

Surprisingly, the Mongols lost their writing .... the mines in which they extracted iron for sabers, where they were ...... They were wild in KOMECHNIKOV .....

[Yaik Cossack]

Why have you lost? Old Mongolian writing exists, there is extensive medieval literature on it. True, the USSR forced the MPR to switch to the Cyrillic alphabet, but this is a purely political history.
Iron was also smelted; there are archaeological finds of Kritz. Yes, and bought blanks from neighbors. What is the problem?

[GTYCBJYTH2021]

Iron in what places, cities of Mongolia melted, everything WORKED, perhaps ...... Problems and no ...

[1970mk]

The next time the Mongols came to Russia only in 1252 (Nevryuev’s army to the northeast, the Kuremsa army, and then Burundai to the west), and that was only because the adopted son of Batu Khan, Alexander Yaroslavich, informed him about the anti-Mongol the intentions of brother Andrew and Daniel Galitsky.

Wonderful .... Again Alexander "Nevsky" laid down his life for the Russian land ...

[Nikolai Korovin]

I read comments here, I read ... And I think so-so: Has there ever been any kind of Russia-Russia? Doubt took direct, so that I fail in tartarara! (Or maybe in Tartaria-Tataria. In Yakutia, reluctance - the error is cold). And then I think so: no, if I’m here in Russia now, so I guess I’ve been there before. And then all of a sudden it became somehow even alarming. Here, understand, you are a holy noble prince of some kind - and he, it turns out, is the closest relative of Genghis Khan, who, it turns out, is also directly Presbyter John, whose kingdom there the western geographers at that time indicated where Karakoram according to the Sovetsky version is. Wow, I think Yoshkin cat! Well this is necessary! And our haplogroup is Turkish. Hence the conclusion: we all sign up for the service of the Turkish Sultan. But the trouble is: the Young Turks overthrew him in 1920, or something, they brought Ataturk to themselves - Father of the Turks, therefore. So until 1920, there were no Turks, ponyash, in fact. They themselves said that he was Ata to them? They said. And Erdogan is not a sultan for you, an elected person. So the transition to Turkish citizenship, I think, is canceled.
What? John - Genghis Khan! The similarity is undeniable! Fomenko, I think, will seize on this matter. Genghis Khan is the very same Presbyter John! By the way, I can't figure it out somehow: who writes Genghis Khan through "z" with a hyphen, who writes Genghis Khan through "s" without a hyphen! And someone does the opposite! How is it correct?

[Grandfather Mansour]

Good day! The author is very rahmat and respect!
A few general comments on comments.
As for the controversial issues in miniatures: as noted above, they were drawn later, not from nature and to the best of the creators. In the Same Series, Old Russian Icons depicting Jesus entering Jerusalem on horned donkey. And where would a Russian monk-icon painter of the XI-XII centuries be able to see a donkey alive?
Secondly, the horses of the Mongols. Are they identical modern Mongolian horse medieval horses the Mongols?
In addition, during the campaign, especially in winter, the Mongols had to suffer losses in the horse composition, which means they had to be replenished with horses captured from local horses, which were far from "Mongol", but local breeds.
By thin. literature about that era: definitely not Jan’s trilogy. It was written during the Great Patriotic War and served primarily the cause of patriotic education and not historical enlightenment. Balashov, IMHO, suitability.
For Mikhail Chernigovsky. The character is epic. When the Mongols approached, he "made a sea bass" to Europe, drowned there for a campaign against the Mongols, and then it was enough to return to Chernigov and go to a meeting with Batu. Yes, his anti-Mongol reputation played against him more than even refusing to undergo purification procedures. Canonization of it, IMHO, stupidly political conjuncture of the XVI century.
Such a question to all participants in the discussion: what was the fate of the Volga cities of the Vladimir-Suzdal land (Yaroslavl and others). In 1238 - were taken by the Mongols and ruined or surrendered without a fight?
Sincerely.

[Willow Nikolay]

... an article, like all articles on this subject, where they never wondered how Genghis Khan generally got to the borders of Russia, from his Mongolia?
In Mongolia, no traces of "economic" prerequisites for the creation of such an empire have been found in the historical layers; there are no rudiments of metallurgy, without which there is no weapon. And even if we take into account that small horses ate half the size of ordinary horses, then moving such a mass of cavalry from the steppes of Mongolia to the borders of Russia still required huge reserves of fodder and food, as well as horseshoes with leather goods for the cavalry. On what road they went to Russia, where are the traces of the movement of these combat masses of cavalry, and how many years they walked, and in general look at the map, there are no traces of states through which they could move such a mass of combat cavalry of those times. And if we assume that they were self-propelled, then they would hardly have reached even Central Asia, without a more or less normal route, some mountains, rivers, forests and deserts. Where did you go? Xinjiang or southern Siberia? Under such initial conditions, only the remnants of the army would reach Central Asia, where they would simply be crushed by the locals ...
Obviously, for so many years historians have been "nursing" this version of history, where almost everything is far-fetched to the accepted version, and how to abandon it now is a complete "paragraph". And yet, for so many years they have been writing about the Battle of Kulikovo, but what's strange is that they just can't find the place where it happened. Excavations did not give any result about the place of the battle, because there were many soldiers who participated in it, according to our official history, but there are no traces, how can this be? After all, if it was a battle, then there must be traces, they cannot but be, but they were not found ... In general, some questions, you can add one more - during the "yoke" in Russia, a huge number of churches and monasteries were built, this is a fact, it is taken from the accounting of these buildings in the documents of the Russian Orthodox Church, and I wonder who built them and for what money, but the sums are not small? How to reconcile this with this version of our history, where there was the Tatar-Mongol yoke? And if you look more closely, there are many such inconsistencies, the truth is interesting, and what then does the official historical science do, in my opinion it is so easy to write dissertations without a twinge of conscience, scoffing at each other and puffing up with importance ...

[RF man]

In the history of "everything is good" with "written sources" - it's a pity NOT so good with material ones.
You read about "heroes of the old days" and get jealous of THEIR material supply, military production, cross-country ability and "material and technical supply" ..
Now, sometimes "you will pass figs", but here TENS of thousands of horsemen maneuver, unexpectedly attack, and even with some kind of wagons "with rich booty". All this in the snowdrifts, among forests and rivers.
They are excellently supplied during trips not only with food, but also with other "consumables".
TENS of thousands of people killed in chain mail, helmets, with swords and shields in CHEST fall down and SO century after century ..
As it comes to excavations - there, the grave, here the grave, swords "take away or two" ...
IT IS UNDERSTOOD that 1000-800-500 years have passed, but during THIS time there are TONS of "hardware", some kind of "camping utensils" for HUNDREDS of thousands of people ...
The feeling that after each raid or battle a cleaning company was called up and carefully cleaned in ancient Russia ...

[RF man]

By the way, no one will tell you - is it possible to read somewhere a study on the "technical support" of the raid?
With the cost price "in comparable prices", "the amount of fodder, food, the number of carts, etc. and so on.
Maybe already done?

[RF man]

Quote: Lantau

Is this a highly developed civilization that just yesterday picked up a notebook and pencil?

So steeper than the Mongols, according to the "written sources" were only the legendary Atlanteans. The Mongols were not noted for only one thing - they did not manage to create an invincible style of Mongolian hand-to-hand combat. For the rest, the full impression that they climbed out of my mother in malakhai, with a saber and on horseback, and they didn't even need a "course of a young fighter" - they knew how to do everything right away. From river crossings to the storming of the fortress walls.

[Seal]

Quote: vladcub

filthy "

And what, Pechenegs, Polovtsians, torks are not enough for you? And actually, in what letter did you see the expression "filthy"?

[Seal]

Quote: HanTengri

In 1812, Napoleon pressed 94 cavalry into Russia.

The roads leading from the western border of the Russian Empire to Moscow and St. Petersburg were:
- wide enough, as they would say now, one and a half strip.
- there were several roads
- roads passed through settlements
- Damn, yes the roads were just roads.

But what happened 800 years ago from Ryazan to Vladimir? Yes, even in forests, in winter conditions, with a daylight hours of 5-6 hours. In addition, it gets dark in the forests even earlier.
Even if the so-called "Mongols" managed to move along the forest road two by two in a row, then (taking into account the spare horse, which, as the stories assure us, was led by "every Mongol") and the interval between the rows of horses, how many kilometers of road is needed to to accommodate 50 thousand riders (100 thousand horses). And I still do not take even more odious options about the allegedly Mongols dragging something on bulls
For your information:

Przewalski's horse sizes
- growth at the withers: about 130 (cm);
- mass: about 250 (kg);
- body length: about 230 (cm).

So the horse's length is 2,3 meters. The spacing between rows should be at least one and a half meters. In total, a pair of "Mongols" with spare horses occupies 6,1 meters. And between the spare horses and the next pair of riders another meter and a half.
Well, or to make it even more clear to you, each pair of horses (regardless of whether there are riders on them or not) takes 3,8 linear meters of road. Fifty thousand pairs of horses will occupy 3,8 mx 50 = 000 meters. Or 190 km.

[Seal]

Quote: SokolfromRussia

"Vsevolod took away all the inhabitants of Ryazan" is speculation. In what source did you find this?

Really speculation? Oh, how bad they are, chroniclers, huh? Do speculation !!!!
And to me for their speculations to swell

Enough or more to add?
Everywhere the same thing. Everywhere exactly the same .... speculation

[Seal]

Quote: Severomor

Horses dig snow deep up to 40 centimeters hooves and eat grass left in the snow.

https://ru.sott.net/article/2052-mongoliyu-nakryli-moschnye-snegopady-za-den-vypala-pochti-vsya-zimnyaya-norma-osadkov

Most of the territory of Mongolia is covered by heavy snow. In Ulaanbaatar, it fell overnight about xnumx mm precipitation. It is not so much, however, the snowfall is increasing, and apparently, it will continue all day. Such a heavy and prolonged snowfall in Mongolia in winter is a unique phenomenon. After all, most of the precipitation falls here in the summer months. In winter, the center of the famous Asian anticyclone is located over Mongolia. Therefore, it is mostly dry and frosty. For example, in Ulan Bator only 10 mm of precipitation falls throughout the winter.

The climate of Mongolia is greatly influenced by the country's mountainous terrain and distance from the oceans. Therefore, the climate of Mongolia is sharply continental, with harsh and long winters, relatively warm summers, and sharp fluctuations in temperature, both daily and seasonal. In the climate of Mongolia, a winter anticyclone plays an important role, the center of which is located at the northern edge of the country, south of Lake Baikal.

Therefore, winter is characterized by severe and persistent frosts that are not interrupted by thaws.

During the year, air temperature fluctuations are 80 - 90 ° С, which indicates a sharp continental ™ climate of Mongolia. If we compare the temperatures for the period from 1960 to 2003. (over 40 years), it can be seen that the average annual temperature increased by 1,56 ° C; in spring and autumn - by 1,4 - 1,5 ° С, in summer - by 0,3 ° С.

The average annual temperature is negative. The average long-term January temperature in the western part is -22,9 ° С, in the Gobi -16,7 ° С, in the northern part of the country -19,5 ° С, the average July temperature is +15, + 23 and +17,5 ° С, respectively.

Precipitation falls mainly in the summer (July to August), as well as in May and September. Little snow falls, it is preserved, as a rule, only in the mountains. In the cold season, almost all precipitation falls in solid form. In the mountains, stable snow cover is established in October and is maintained until the beginning of April. Its greatest height is also noted there. In the desert and steppe zones of the plains, stable snow cover is practically not formed.

[Seal]

Quote: Yaitsky Cossack

The Kyrgyz horse, like the Mongolian one, is small, but very hardy. Got it. As far back as the XNUMXth century, almost all of the Urals, Orenburg, and Siberian Cossacks rode them. But the Slavs are larger physically than the Mongols.

The Kyrgyz horse will still be 10 centimeters higher than the Mongolian one. And I believe that the Cossacks did not go all the way to pure Kyrgyz, which are of the type of pack horses, but to mestizos. Metiski will be even higher.
And most importantly. Kyrgyz horse is capable of amble. The Mongolian horse is genetically incapable of amble.
And the normal gait for ordinary movement at a speed higher than the "step" gait is precisely the "pacing" gait - a two-stroke gait, (a view between a trot and a step), in which first two right and then two left legs are carried out simultaneously. Natural amble - very comfortable for the rider at long distances, a gentle gait with a slight lateral sway. The stride length in amble is shorter than in trot, and the frequency is greater.

[Molot1979]

And why historians always diligently ignore the question of what Prince Yuri Vsevolodovich was thinking and why the chroniclers stubbornly call the Tatars an unknown people? Or what, From the beginning to the middle of the 30s of the 13th century, Russia completely abandoned international trade? And she was not at all interested in who was sweeping Khorezm, Armenia and Georgia there? And of course no one even thought to find out what kind of new enemy walked along the border of Russia in 1223? And of course, nafig these Polovtsians, and we won't listen, who is pinching you there in your Steppe? This is a complete, simply epic failure of the foreign intelligence of the Vladimir principality. Well, or as an option, "intelligence reported accurately, but the prince did not believe." For 15 years no one has bothered to find out what is going on at the borders there. Although ambassadors from Volga Bulgaria came to Yuri, they begged him on their knees for help, but the prince answered them in the spirit of the Bear: "There will be no help, but you are holding on there and you are in a good mood." He did not even ask what kind of enemy he was, what were the features and characteristics. This is a conclusion from the fact that both Yuri and everyone else, to the last, considered the army of Batu just a horde of wild nomads. They will run in, robbed and go back to their steppe. And somehow they did not know anything about the powerful siege park. And if they knew, they would not have left their families in the fortified cities that have become a trap. No, Yuri did something. Renovated border fortresses. And that is all. Of course, gathering troops quickly under a feudal manning system is a daunting task. But they did not even try to solve it. Most likely, counting on the coming winter, nomads never fought in winter. So the arrival of an entire army across ice and snow was a deadly surprise. As for Ryazan, the idea was put forward that an alliance with it did exist. Because very quickly Kolomna had a part of the grand ducal army, as if in a hurry to unite with the Ryazan people. So the extermination of the embassy has another possible reason - to force the Ryazan prince to strike before help arrives. It turned out, in any case, exactly so. They hit and lost. Then at Kolomna they met the second Russian army and again it was in the minority and again was defeated. Beat in parts. For someone as experienced as Subedei, this was no secret.