Mongols in Russia. First meeting


Mongolian cavalry attack, medieval miniature


In the 1220 year, in the midst of the military campaign to conquer Khorezm, Genghis Khan “outfitted two leaders: Dzhebe-noiana and Subet-Bahadur (Subedei), with thirty thousand (warriors)” (An-Nasawi). They had to find and capture the escaped Khorezmshah - Mohamed II. “By the power of the Great God, until you take it in your hands, do not return,” Genghis ordered them, and “they crossed the river, heading for Khorasan, and scoured the country.”

They could not find an unlucky ruler: he died on one of the islands of the Caspian Sea at the end of the 1220 year (some authors claim that at the beginning of the 1221). But his mother was captured, bypassing the sea from the south, defeated the Georgian army at the Battle of Sagimi (the son of the famous Queen Tamara George IV Lasha was seriously wounded in it) and in the Kotman Valley, captured a number of cities in Iran and the Caucasus.

However, the war did not end; the new Khorezmshah was Jalal ad-Din, who had been fighting the Mongols for 10 years, sometimes inflicting sensitive defeats on them - this was described in the article Empire of Genghis Khan and Khorezm. Last Hero

Subaday and Jeba informed Genghis Khan about the death of Muhammad and flight to an unknown destination Jalal ad-Din, and, according to Rashid ad-Din, were ordered to move north to defeat the tribes related to the Kipchaks of Khorezm.


Ismailov I.S. "Tatar-Mongols at the walls of Derbent"


Subuday and Jabe's war with the Polovtsi


Having captured Shemakha and Derbent, the Mongols fought through the lands of Lezghins and entered the Alans' possessions, to which the Kipchaks (Polovtsy) came to help.

As you know, a difficult battle with them, which is "Yuan-shi" (история the Yuan dynasty, written in the XIV century under the leadership of Song Lun) calls the battle in the Yu-Yu valley, did not reveal the winners. Ibn al-Asir in the Complete Code of History reports that the Mongols were forced to resort to tricks, and, only with the help of deception, they managed, in turn, to defeat both those and others.

“Yuan Shi” calls the battle of Buzu (Don) the second battle of the Subedei and Jebe corps — here the Polovtsy, who had left the Alans, were defeated. Ibn al-Asir also talks about this battle, adding that the Mongols "took from the Kipchaks twice as much as they had before."

It seemed that now Subaedei and Jebe could calmly withdraw their troops in order to report to Genghis Khan on their successes and receive well-deserved rewards. Instead, the Mongols go even further north, chasing the Kipchaks in front of them and trying to squeeze them to some kind of natural barrier - a large river, the sea, mountains.

S. Pletneva believed that in those days in the Ciscaucasia, the Volga region and in the Crimea there were seven tribal unions of the Polovtsy. Therefore, after the defeat, the demoralized Polovtsians were divided. A part ran to the Crimea, the Mongols pursued them, and, crossing the Kerch Strait, captured the city of Sugdeya (Surozh, now Sudak). Others moved to the Dnieper - it was they who later, along with the Russian squads, would take part in the unfortunate battle of Kalka (the Alici River in the Yuan Shi).

A logical question arises about the true purpose and objectives of this campaign. What task did the generals of Genghis Khan now perform so far from the main forces and the main theater of operations? What was it? Preventive strike on the Kipchaks, who could become allies of the new Khorezmshah? Intelligence expedition? Or, something more was planned, but not everything turned out as Genghis Khan would like?

Or maybe, from a certain moment, it was an “improvisation" that went too far and lost all contact with Genghis Subudei and Jaebe?

What do we see in the 1223 year? Subadei and Jeba were ordered to capture the Khorezmshah, but the former was not alive, and the new one, Jalal ad-Din, was forced to flee to India a year and a half ago after losing the battle in Indus. Soon he will return to Iran, Armenia, Georgia, and will begin to gather a new state for himself with his sword and fire. Khorezm fell, and Genghis Khan, now preparing for war with the Tangut kingdom of Xi Xia. His headquarters and the army of Subedai and Jebe are shared by many thousands of kilometers. Interestingly, in the spring of 1223, did the Great Khan even know where he was and what the corps that had gone on a trip three years ago was doing?

Another extremely interesting question: how real was the threat to the South Russian principalities?

Let's try to figure it out. First of all, let’s try to answer the question: why did Subaedey and Jebe, sent in search of the Khorezmshah, so stubbornly pursue the Kipchaks, better known to us as Polovtsy? They did not have an order for the final conquest of these territories (and the forces for such an ambitious task were clearly not enough). And there was no military need for this persecution after the second battle (on the Don): the defeated Polovtsians were not in danger, and the Mongols could freely join forces with Jochi.

Some consider the reason the original hatred of the Mongols towards the Kipchaks, who for centuries have been their rivals and competitors.

Mongols in Russia. First meeting




Others point to the kinship of Khan Kutan (in Russian chronicles - Kotyan) with the mother of Khorezmshah Muhammad II - Terken-Khatyn. Still others believe that the Kipchaks accepted the enemies of the Genghis Khan clan - the Merkits.

Finally, Subaedei and Jebe probably understood that soon the Mongols would come to these steppes for a long time (Juchi ulus would often be “Bulgar and Kipchak”, or “Khorezm and Kipchak”), and therefore they could strive to inflict maximum damage on their current owners, to facilitate the task of future conquerors.

That is, such a consistent desire of the Mongols to the complete destruction of the Polovtsian troops with rational reasons can be fully explained.

But was a clash between the Mongols and the Russians inevitable that year? Most probably not. It is impossible to find at least one reason why the Mongols should have sought such a clash. In addition, Subaedey and Jeba did not have the opportunity to make a successful invasion of Russia. There were no siege machines in their tumens, and there were no Khitan or Jurchen engineers and craftsmen capable of building such weapons, so there was no question of storming the cities. Yes, and a simple raid, it seems, was not included in their plans. We remember that the famous campaign of Igor Svyatoslavich in 1185 ended with a blow from the combined forces of the Polovtsy in the Chernigov and Pereyaslavl lands. In the 1223 year, the Mongols won a much more significant victory, but did not take advantage of its fruits.

The events preceding the Battle of Kalka are presented to many as follows: defeating the Kipchaks on the Don, the Mongols drove them to the borders of the Russian principalities. Finding themselves on the verge of physical destruction, the Polovtsy turned to the Russian princes with the words:
“Our Tatars have taken our land now, and yours will be taken tomorrow, protect us; if you don’t help us, then we will be killed today, and you will be killed tomorrow. ”


Gathered to the council of Russian princes Mstislav Udatny (then - Prince Galitsky), the son-in-law of Khan Kutan (Kotyan) stated:
“If we, brothers, do not help them, then they will surrender to the Tatars, and then they will have even more strength.”


That is, it turns out that the Mongols did not leave anyone any choice. The Polovtsians were supposed to either die, or completely submit to and become part of the Mongolian army. A clash between the Russians and the aliens who found themselves at their borders was also inevitable, the question was only where it will take place. And the Russian princes decided: "It is better for us to accept them (the Mongols) on a foreign land than on our own."

Such a simple and clear scheme where everything is logical and there is no desire to ask additional questions - and, at the same time, is absolutely wrong.

In fact, the Mongols at the time of these negotiations were not close to the Russian borders: they fought with another tribal alliance of the Polovtsy in the Crimea and the Black Sea steppes. Kotyan, who had said, quoted earlier, a beautiful, full of pathos, phrase about the need to unite efforts in the fight against foreign invaders, his relatives could justifiably accuse him of betrayal, since he took away about 20 thousands of soldiers, condemning those remaining to inevitable defeat. And Kotyan could not know for sure whether the Mongols would go further north. But the Polovtsian khan longed for revenge, and the anti-Mongol alliance, which he was trying to organize now, seemed to be not defensive, but offensive.


Khan Kotyan persuades Russian princes to repulse the Tatar-Mongols, modern illustration


Fatal decision


Mstislav Kievsky, Mstislav Chernigovsky, Volyn prince Daniil Romanovich, Smolensk prince Vladimir, Sursky prince Oleg, son of the Kiev prince Vsevolod - former Novgorod prince, nephew of the Chernigov prince Mikhail came to the council of princes in Kiev. They allowed the Polovtsy and their supporters, Mstislav Galitsky (he is better known under the nickname Udatny - “Lucky” and not “Udaloy”) to convince them that the danger was real, and agreed to go on a campaign against the Mongols.


Seal of Mstislav Udatny


The problem was that the main force of the Russian squads was traditionally infantry, which was delivered to the place of general gathering on boats. And therefore, the Russians could fight the Mongols only with the very great desire of the Mongols themselves. Subudey and Dzhebe could easily evade the battle, or play with the "cat and mouse" with the Russians, leading their squads behind them, exhausting them with long marches - which happened in reality. And there were no guarantees that the Mongols, who at that time were far in the south, would generally come to the borders of Russia and, moreover, would enter into a battle absolutely unnecessary to them. But the Polovtsy knew that the Mongols could be forced to do this. Have you already guessed what happened next?

The gathering place of the Russian squads this time was Varyazhsky Island, which was located opposite the mouth of the Trubezh River (currently flooded by the Kanevsky Reservoir). It was difficult to hide such a significant accumulation of troops, and the Mongols, learning about this, tried to enter into negotiations. And the words of their ambassadors were standard:
“We heard that you were going against us, obeying the Polovtsy, but we did not occupy your land, neither your cities, nor villages, came to you; we came by God's permission to our servants and grooms, to filthy Polovtsy, but we have no war with you; if the Polovtsians run to you, then you beat them from there and take their good to yourself; we heard that they are doing a lot of evil to you, because we are beating them from here. ”


One can argue about the sincerity of these proposals, however, there was no need to kill the Mongolian ambassadors, among whom was also one of the two sons of Sudedei (Chambek). But, at the insistence of the Polovtsy, all of them were killed, and now the Russian princes became the bloodlines of the Mongols in general, and of Subedai.

This murder was not an act of bestial cruelty, or a manifestation of savagery and stupidity. It was an insult and a challenge: the Mongols were deliberately provoked to battle with an opponent who was superior in strength and in the most unfavorable conditions and circumstances for them (as it seemed to everyone then). And reconciliation was almost impossible.

Nobody touched the Mongols of the second embassy with a finger - because this was no longer necessary. But they came to Kotyan’s son-in-law, Mstislav Galitsky, one of the initiators of this campaign. This meeting took place at the mouth of the Dniester, where, in a roundabout way going to join with the troops of other princes, his squad sailed on boats. And the Mongols at that time were still in the Black Sea steppes.
“You listened to the Polovtsy and killed our ambassadors; now come upon us, well, then come; we didn’t touch you: God is above us all, "
- said the ambassadors, and the Mongol army began moving north. And the squad of Mstislav on the boats along the Dnieper climbed to the island of Khortytsya, where she joined other Russian troops.

So, slowly and at the same time, inevitably went to meet each other armies of opposite sides.

The forces of the parties


On a campaign against the Mongols, the squads of the following principalities: Kiev, Chernigov, Smolensky, Galitsky-Volynsky, Kursky, Putivl and Trubchevsky.


Fomin N. Three Mstislav (Before the Battle of Kalka)


The detachment of the Principality of Vladimir, commanded by Vasilko Rostovsky, managed to reach only Chernigov. Having received news of the defeat of the Russian troops on Kalka, he turned back.

The number of Russian troops is currently estimated at about 30 thousand people, about another 20 thousand were put up by Polovtsy, they were headed by the thousand thousand Yarun - voivode Mstislav Udatny. Historians believe that the next time the Russians could assemble such a large army only in the 1380 year - for the Battle of Kulikovo.

The army, indeed, was large, but did not have a common command. Mstislav Kievsky and Mstislav Galitsky fiercely competed among themselves, as a result, at the decisive moment, on 31 on May 1223, their troops were on different banks of the Kalka River.


Mstislav Romanovich Stary, mosaic of the Golden Gate metro station, Kiev



Lipitskaya battle, 1216. The entry of Mstislav Udatny into battle. Thumbnail from the Facade of the XVI century


The Mongols began their campaign, having an army from 20 to 30 thousand people. By this time, they certainly suffered losses, and therefore, the number of their troops, even according to the most optimistic estimates, was unlikely to exceed 20 thousand people, but was probably less.

Beginning of the campaign


Having waited for the approach of all units, the Russians and the Polovtsy allied with them crossed to the left bank of the Dnieper and moved east. The units of Mstislav Udatny moved in the forefront: they were the first to meet with the Mongols, the advanced units of which, after a short battle, retreated. The Galicians accepted the enemy’s deliberate retreat as his weakness, and the self-confidence of Mstislav Udatny increased with each day of the persecution. In the end, he apparently decided that he could cope with the Mongols without the help of other princes - with only one Polovtsy. And it was not only a thirst for fame, but also an unwillingness to share the booty.

Battle of Kalka


The Mongols retreated for another 12 days, the Russian-Polovtsian troops were very stretched out and were tired. Finally, Mstislav Udatny saw the Mongol troops ready for battle, and, without warning the other princes, with his squad and Polovtsy attacked them. Thus began the battle on Kalka, reports of which are available in 22 Russian chronicles.


Dimitrov V. The Battle of Kalka


In all chronicles, the name of the river is given in the plural: on Kalki. Therefore, some researchers believe that this is not the proper name of the river, but an indication that the battle took place on several closely located small rivers. The exact location of this battle has not been determined; currently, the areas on the Karatysh, Kalmius and Kalchik rivers are considered as a possible battle place.

The Sofia Chronicle indicates that, at first, some Kalki had a small battle between the advanced detachments of the Mongols and the Russians. The warriors of Mstislav Galitsky captured one of the Mongol centurions, whom this prince issued to kill Polovtsians. Having overturned the enemy here, the Russians approached another Kalka, where on May 31 and 1223 the main battle unfolded.


Daniil Romanovich and Mstislav Mstislavich on a campaign, medieval miniature


So, the troops of Mstislav Udatny, Daniil Volynsky, Chernihiv cavalry and Polovtsy, not coordinating their actions with other participants in the campaign, crossed to the other side of the river. The Kiev prince Mstislav Stary, with whom his two son-in-law was, remained on the opposite bank, where a fortified camp was built.

The attack of the reserve parts of the Mongols was overturned by the attacking Russian troops, the Polovtsy fled (it was their flight that was called the cause of the defeat of the Novgorod and Suzdal chronicles). Mstislav Udatny, the hero of the battle of Lipitsa, also fled, and the first to reach the Dnieper, where the Russian rooks were. Instead of organizing defense on the shore, he, having transferred part of his squad to the opposite shore, ordered to chop and burn all the boats. It was his actions that became one of the main reasons for the death of about 8 thousand of Russian soldiers.


B. Chorikov. Prince Mstislav Galitsky, having lost the battle of Kalk, escapes beyond the Dnieper


The cowardly and unworthy behavior of Mstislav is in sharp contrast with the behavior of the same Igor Svyatoslavich in the 1185 year, who also had the opportunity to escape, but stated:
“If we jump, we will save ourselves, and we will abandon ordinary people, and it will be a sin against us before God, betraying them, we will leave. Either we die, or we all remain alive together. ”


This example is a vivid proof of the moral degradation of the Russian princes, which will reach its peak during the time of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, his sons and grandchildren.

Meanwhile, the camp of Mstislav of Kiev lasted three days. There were two reasons. Firstly, Subaedey with the main forces chased the fleeing Russian soldiers to the Dnieper, and, only after destroying them, returned. Secondly, the Mongols did not have infantry capable of breaking through the fortifications of Kiev. But their allies were hunger and thirst.

Convinced of the resilience of Kiev and the failure of the assaults, the Mongols entered into negotiations. The Russian chronicles claim that on behalf of the enemy a certain “governor of brodniks” Ploskiny conducted negotiations, and Mstislav of Kiev believed the co-religionist kissing the cross that the Mongols “will not shed your blood”.


Sculptural composition "Captive Mstislav", tin


The Mongols didn’t really shed the blood of the Russian princes: the annals claim that they, having put the bound captives on the ground, laid on top of the boards on which they arranged a feast in honor of the victory.

Eastern sources talk about the death of captured Russian princes a little differently.

It is alleged that Subedei sent for negotiations not Ploskin, but the former governor (wali) of the city of Khin Ablas (in Bulgarian sources he is called Ablas-Khin), who lured the Russian princes beyond the fortifications. Subaedeus allegedly asked them so that Russian soldiers could hear outside the fence: who should be executed for the death of his son - princes or their soldiers?

The princes cowardly replied that they were warriors, and Subaedey turned to their warriors:
“You heard that your beks betrayed you. Leave without fear, for I will execute them myself for treason to my soldiers, and I will let you go. ”


Then, when the bound princes were put under the wooden shields of the Kiev camp, he again turned to the surrendered soldiers:
“Your beks wanted you to be the first to land. So trample them into the land for this. ”


And the princes were crushed with their own feet by their own warriors.

Thinking, Subaeday said:
“Warriors who have killed their backs should not live.”


And he ordered to kill all the captured soldiers.

This story is more credible, since it was clearly written from the words of an eyewitness Mongol. And on the part of the Russian surviving eyewitnesses, this terrible and sad incident, as you understand, most likely did not happen.

Consequences of the Battle of Kalka


In total, in this battle and after it, according to various sources, from six to nine Russian princes died, a lot of boyars and about 90% of ordinary soldiers.

Accurately documented the death of six princes. This is the Kiev prince Mstislav the Old; Chernigov prince Mstislav Svyatoslavich; Alexander Glebovich from Dubrovitsy; Izyaslav Ingvarevich from Dorogobuzh; Svyatoslav Yaroslavich from Janowice; Andrey Ivanovich from Turov.

The defeat was truly terrible, and in Russia made an incredibly difficult impression. Epics were even created that stated that it was on Kalka that the last Russian heroes died.

Since the Kiev prince Mstislav Stary was a figure that suited many, his death provoked a new round of strife, and the years that passed from Kalka to the Western campaign of the Mongols in Russia were not used by the Russian princes to prepare to repel the invasion.

The return of the army of Subudey and Jabe


Having won the battle on Kalka, the Mongols did not go to ruin the remaining defenseless Russia, and finally moved east. And therefore, we can safely say that this battle was unnecessary and optional for them, the Mongol invasion of Russia in the 1223 year could not be feared. The Russian princes were either misled by the Polovtsy and Mstislav Galitsky, or they decided to take the prey they had stolen during the campaign from the strangers.

But the Mongols did not go to the Caspian Sea, as one might suppose, but to the lands of the Bulgars. Why? Some suggest that the Saxin tribe, having learned about the approach of the Mongols, set fire to the grass, which caused the corps of Subaedey and Jebe to turn to the north. But, firstly, this tribe wandered between the Volga and the Urals, and the Mongols simply could not find out about the fire it had set up before they approached the lower Volga, and secondly, the time for the steppe fire was inappropriate. The steppe burns when dry grass prevails in it: last spring, after the snow melts, last year’s grass burns, in the fall, this year’s grass has dried. The directories state that "during the period of intensive vegetation, steppe fires practically do not occur." The Battle of Kalka, as we recall, took place on May 31. Here is what the Khomutov steppe (Donetsk region) looks like in June: there’s nothing to burn in it.


Chomutov steppe in June


So, the Mongols are again looking for opponents, stubbornly go to the Bulgars. For some reason, Subaday and Jebe do not consider their mission to be fully accomplished. But they have already accomplished the almost impossible, and the English historian S. Walker will later compare their campaign along the path traveled and these battles with the campaigns of Alexander the Great and Hannibal, claiming that they surpassed both of them. Napoleon will write about Subaedey's great contribution to military art. What else do they need? They decided alone, with such insignificant forces, to defeat absolutely all the states of Eastern Europe? Or do we not know something?

What is the result? At the end of 1223 or the beginning of 1224, the Mongol army weary of the campaign was ambushed and defeated. The name Jebe is no longer found in historical sources, it is believed that he died in battle. The great commander Subedai was seriously wounded, he lost one eye and will remain lame for the rest of his life. According to some reports, there were so many captured Mongols, the victorious Bulgars exchanged them for rams at a one-to-one rate. Only 4 thousands of soldiers break into Desht-i-Kipchak.

How should meet the same Sub-Bedey Genghis Khan? Put yourself in his place: you send two generals at the head of 20 or 30 of thousands of selected horsemen in search of the head of a hostile state. They do not find the old Khorezmshah, they miss the new one, and they themselves disappear for three years. They appear where it is not necessary, they fight with someone, gain unnecessary victories that lead to nothing. There are also no plans for war with the Russians, but they demonstrate to the probable adversary the possibilities of the Mongolian army, making you think and, possibly, prompt you to take measures to repel subsequent aggression. And, finally, they are ruining their army - not some steppe rabble, but the invincible heroes from Onon and Kerulen, throwing them into battle in the most adverse conditions. If Subedei and Jabe acted arbitrarily, "at their own peril and risk," the conqueror's anger must be very great. But Subaedey escapes punishment. But the relationship between Genghis Khan and his eldest son, Jochi, is deteriorating sharply.

Jochi and Genghis Khan


Jochi is considered the eldest son of the great conqueror, but probably his real father was an unnamed Merkit, whose wife or concubine Borte became during her captivity. Genghis, who loved Borte, and understood his guilt (he shamefully fled during the Merkit raid, leaving his wife, mother, and brothers to their own devices) recognized Jochi as his son. But the illegitimate origin of his first-born was no secret to anyone, and Chagatay openly reproached his brother with Merkit origin - because of his position, he could afford it. Others were silent, but they knew everything. Genghis Khan, it seems, did not like Dzhuchi, and therefore allocated the ravaged Khorezm, the sparsely populated steppe in the territory of present-day Kazakhstan and the uninhabited lands of the West, to which he had to go with a detachment of 4 of thousands of Mongols and soldiers of the peoples of the conquered countries.

Rashid ad-Din in the “Collection of Chronicles” hints that Jochi violated Genghis’s order, having at first avoided helping the corps of Sub-Jedi and Jebe, and then, after their defeat, from a punitive expedition against the Bulgars.
“Go to the lands where Subudai-bahtatur and Jebe Noyon have been, take all the winterings and summers. Destroy the Bulgar and Polovtsian ",
- Genghis Khan writes to him, Jochi does not even answer.

And in 1224, under the pretext of illness, Jochi refused to come to Kurultai - apparently, he did not expect anything good from a meeting with his father.

Many authors of those years speak of the strained relations of Jochi and Genghis Khan. The 13th-century Persian historian Ad-Giuzjani states:
“Tushi (Jochi) said to his close associates:“ Genghis Khan has gone mad that he is destroying so many people and destroying so many kingdoms. It seems to me the most expedient to kill his father on the hunt, get close to Sultan Muhammad, bring this state into a flourishing state and render assistance Muslims. " His brother Chaghatai found out about this plan and informed his father about this traitorous plan and intention of his brother. Upon learning, Genghis Khan sent his confidants to poison and kill the carcasses. "


The Genealogy of the Turks states that Jochi died 6 months before the death of Genghis Khan - in 1227. But Jamal al-Qarshi claims that this happened before:
"The carcass died before his father - in the 622 / 1225 year."


This date is considered by historians more reliable, since in 1224 or 1225 the angry Genghis Khan was going to go to war against Jochi, and, as they say, only the death of his son stopped this campaign. It is unlikely that Genghis Khan delayed the war against the son who had shown rebellion for two years.

According to the official version cited by Rashid ad-Din, Jochi died of the disease. But even contemporaries did not believe in this, claiming that the cause of his death was poison. At the time of the death of Jochi was about 40 years.

In 1946, Soviet archaeologists in the Karaganda region of Kazakhstan (in the Alatau mountains, about 50 km north-east of Zhezkagan) in the mausoleum, where, according to legend, Jochi was buried, a skeleton without a right hand with a cut skull was discovered. If this body really belongs to Jochi, we can conclude that the envoys of Genghis Khan did not really hope for poison.


The alleged mausoleum of Juchi Khan is a 13th-century architectural monument located in the Ulytau district of the Karaganda region at 50 km northeast of Zhezkazgan


Perhaps, having appeared in the Volga steppes in June 1223, Subaedey and Jabe established contact with the Metropolis and received instructions on further actions. That is why they so long and slowly moved to the lands of the Bulgars: they could have been there already in the middle of summer, and they came only at the end of the 1223 of the year or at the beginning of the 1224. Expected to meet the reinforcements sent to them by Jochi, or his blow to the rear of the Bulgarians? This could be the beginning of the Western campaign of the Mongols.

But why did not the first-born of Genghis come to the aid of the commanders of his father?

According to one version, he was a “steppe paladin”, and did not want to lead his troops to the conquest of forest kingdoms uninteresting to him and obscure alien peoples. The same Al-Giuzjani wrote that when the carcasses (Jochi)
"Saw the air and water of the Kipchak land, he found that all over the world there can be no land more pleasant than this, air is better than this, water is sweeter than this, meadows and pastures are more extensive than these."


Perhaps it was Desht-i-Kipchak that he wanted to become the lord of.

According to another version, Jochi did not like Subadei and Jebe, who were people of a different generation - associates of the unloved father, commanders of the old, Genghis "school", and did not approve of their methods of war. And therefore, deliberately did not go towards them, sincerely wishing them death.

In this case, if Jochi survived Genghis Khan, perhaps his campaign to the West was of a different nature.

In any case, this great campaign "to the last sea" would take place. But in 1223, the Mongols did not have plans for a war with the Russian principalities. The battle of Kalka was an unnecessary, useless and even harmful battle for them, because it showed their strength in it, and it was not their "fault" that the Russian princes, occupied with their strife, ignored such a serious and formidable warning.

The killing of the ambassadors was not forgotten either by the Mongols, or, moreover, by the loss of their son Subedai, and this probably influenced the course of subsequent Mongolian military campaigns on the territory of Russia.

Some oddities of the initial stage of the war between the Mongols and the Russian principalities will be discussed in the next article.
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  1. lucul 12 November 2019 06: 12 New
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    -13
    I consider the campaign of Vladimir Monomakh against the Polovtsy, where they were first defeated and greatly weakened, the cause of the defeat of the Polovtsy from the Mongols. It was a tactical victory for Russia - but a strategic defeat in history.
    Were it not for that campaign, the Polovtsy would have defeated the Mongols.
    1. Cartalon 12 November 2019 07: 20 New
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      +17
      100 years have passed since Monomakh’s campaigns
      1. Vend 12 November 2019 09: 48 New
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        +2
        It was an insult and a challenge: the Mongols were deliberately provoked to battle with an opponent who was superior in strength and in the most unfavorable conditions and circumstances for them (as it seemed to everyone then). And reconciliation was almost impossible.
        Yes, the Mongols killed themselves. Or put abusive conditions.
        1. Cartalon 12 November 2019 09: 50 New
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          +3
          Well, specifically, the Mongols did not set any particularly offensive conditions to the Russian princes
          1. Vend 12 November 2019 09: 54 New
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            Quote: Cartalon
            Well, specifically, the Mongols did not set any particularly offensive conditions to the Russian princes

            Come on. But what about the Ryazan embassy to Batu? Yes, and Kiev on Kalka cheated.
            1. Cartalon 12 November 2019 09: 59 New
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              +1
              What does Batu have to do with it? Batu went to conquer, and the Kievans were so military a cunning, the Mongols had every right to deceive such dishonest people
              1. VLR
                VLR 12 November 2019 10: 11 New
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                +10
                The execution of princes and soldiers after Kalka — the Mongols tried to “save face”: they promised not to spill the blood of the princes — and did not spill it. But the soldiers were promised nothing. Moreover, the princes, in the face of Subedai, tried to shift the responsibility for the murder of the ambassadors and his son to their warriors. Like, "we did not want, but the soldier forced me."
                1. Cartalon 12 November 2019 10: 22 New
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                  You use the term soldier in vain for this era and especially for Russian wars
                  1. Proxima 12 November 2019 13: 09 New
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                    Quote: Cartalon
                    You use the term soldier in vain for this era and especially for Russian wars

                    Perhaps you are right, the term soldier appeared 30 years later than the events described, and then it extended to a narrow group of military personnel.
                  2. Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 14: 08 New
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                    Quote: Cartalon
                    term soldier

                    Comes from the word "soldo", i.e. coin, money. “Soldier” means a mercenary fighting for money. To this era, the word is really not applicable.
              2. Vend 12 November 2019 10: 18 New
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                Quote: Cartalon
                What does Batu have to do with it? Batu went to conquer, and the Kievans were so military a cunning, the Mongols had every right to deceive such dishonest people

                What are you saying? laughing What does Batu have to do with it? A test of strength on Kalka led to a campaign in Russia. Horde ambassadors were honest laughing Prior to this, they drove a wedge between the Alans and the Polovtsy, destroyed some, took on others laughing Good military trick to destroy the enemy, who agreed to peaceful conditions. This is not a trick, but a meanness. This meanness then repeatedly manifested Horde. They swear eternal friendship, and they will open the gates, cut everyone out.
                1. Cartalon 12 November 2019 10: 20 New
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                  Normal diplomacy, then why ambassadors to kill? By the way, the inviolability of ambassadors was by no means invented by the Mongols.
                  1. Vend 12 November 2019 15: 00 New
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                    Quote: Cartalon
                    Normal diplomacy, then why ambassadors to kill? By the way, the inviolability of ambassadors was by no means invented by the Mongols.

                    One of the famous acts of the first khan of the Mongols, Khabul Khan, whose descendant was Genghis Khan, was the murder of the embassy of the North Chinese emperor of the Jin dynasty. The court chronicler Chinggisid Rashid-ad-Din reports about this without any conviction as a feat and youth: “He told his daughters-in-law and servants:“ For this I took you and keep so many servants and servants so that at such a moment of mortal danger all of you would be unanimous with me. We will kill these ambassadors, but if you refuse, I will kill you ... They agreed and attacked the ambassadors with him, killed them, and they themselves were safely saved from this misfortune. ” What did you say there about the integrity of ambassadors and dishonorable people? laughing
                    1. Ehanatone 13 November 2019 03: 14 New
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                      "What did you say there about the integrity of ambassadors and dishonorable people?"
                      This vegetable about the reasons for the outbreak of war with the mangols seemed to me sucked from somewhere below the sacrum from school ...
                      as well as the type of co-religionists, in the sense of sectarians, they were sent, therefore they were killed! ...
                      About the killing of ambassadors, how the throwing of a ritual glove has already been said! ...
                      And about the Church:
                      Their strength arises precisely after the conquest - there is no Mongolam levy from the church, which means that the church has an advantage in the economy!
                2. Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 14: 11 New
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                  Quote: Wend
                  This is not a trick, but a meanness.

                  To politics and war, the concept of "meanness", it seems to me, does not apply and is used by "victims" to justify their own stupidity.
                  1. Vend 12 November 2019 15: 06 New
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                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    Quote: Wend
                    This is not a trick, but a meanness.

                    To politics and war, the concept of "meanness", it seems to me, does not apply and is used by "victims" to justify their own stupidity.

                    Yes you laughing laughing Read how the Mongols disrespect other rulers, provoking them in order to destroy them later. It began even before going to Russia. But what’s interesting, not a single eastern source dating back to the Mongols at all mentions the murder by the Russian princes of the Mongolian ambassadors. The Arab historian Ibn al-Asir, who gives a detailed account of the wars of the Mongols and the Polovtsy and the battle of Kalka, does not mention the murder of the Mongolian ambassadors by the Russians, as if he was not there. Rashid-ad-Din is also silent about this episode, but specifically emphasizes that the Mongols "attacked" the land of the Uruses. The Chinese Yuan Shi, containing a detailed biography of the commander Subedai, does not mention the murder of the ambassadors.
                    1. Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 15: 17 New
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                      I am not talking about the murder of ambassadors, but about "meanness" in war and in politics in principle. Complaining is the fate of the losers.
                      He expressed his opinion on the killing of ambassadors below.
            2. VLR
              VLR 12 November 2019 10: 06 New
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              In the next article, we will try to talk about this strange story with the murder of Ryazan ambassadors
      2. lucul 13 November 2019 06: 09 New
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        100 years have passed since Monomakh’s campaigns

        Yeah, but as soon as the crusaders took Constantinople, so the whole power of Byzantium immediately left. Although it existed even then more than 200 years ....
    2. svp67 12 November 2019 15: 33 New
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      Quote: lucul
      Were it not for that campaign, the Polovtsy would have defeated the Mongols.

      But would they not have destroyed Russia by that time? history has no subjunctive moods, everything has already happened as it happened, and of course it’s possible to fantasize now, but still it won’t change the story.
      “Our Tatars have taken our land now, and yours will be taken tomorrow, protect us; if you don’t help us, then we will be killed today, and you tomorrow ”
      There, in the lands of Alansky, something happened, which very abruptly changed the attitude of the Mongols towards the Kipchaks.
      In general, it is worth a lot to marvel. Can you imagine the long-term raid of equestrian squads of the Mongols, being on a foreign land, where you must always sleep halfway and halfway. How did they establish provision, uninterrupted provision of food, how did they have medical and veterinary provision? After all, there were wounded and sick people, as they did with them, if the corps were constantly in motion and made lightning marches, how intelligence worked. And the fact that she was established perfectly says at least the course of the battle on the City River. Why brodniks so easily crossed over to the Mongol side .... There are so many questions that are now difficult to find answers.
      And yet, I do not adhere to the author’s point of view that most of the Russian army was on foot. The best units from the Russian principalities went on a campaign and they went to the Wild Steppe, where mobility was always appreciated. So, in this case, I am a supporter of the military historian K.A. Zhukov, the Russian army was mounted.
    3. Ehanatone 13 November 2019 02: 58 New
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      "If there hadn’t been that campaign, the Polovtsy would have defeated the Mongols"
      Alas, not subjunctive, set +
  2. Same lech 12 November 2019 06: 12 New
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    Interesting story ... thanks to the author for the article.
    However, the question is: have archaeologists found a place for the battle of Russian warriors with the Mongols on the Kalka River ... where is the actual material from this place of the battle?
    1. VLR
      VLR 12 November 2019 07: 07 New
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      The exact location of this battle has not been determined; the locations on the Karatysh, Kalmius and Kalchik rivers are considered as possible battle sites.
      1. Engineer 12 November 2019 12: 29 New
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        Valery, a few questions for you about Kalka, your opinion is interesting.
        Mstislav Udatny proved to be a poor military leader and coward. This is despite the fact that under Lipitsa he showed himself to be a brave man three times breaking through the enemy regiments. Yes, and as a commander he showed himself completely. What happened?
        Mstislav Stary, who, judging by the annals, was a nonsense, made a good decision, he became a camp, and even fortified. Did he suspect something? If the camp was located closer to the crossing where the Galicians and Volynians fled, then the Russian armies could regroup and retreat in a more organized way.
        1. VLR
          VLR 12 November 2019 12: 58 New
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          The behavior of Mstislav Udatny is indeed difficult to explain. He does not look like just a coward, but also a scoundrel: he cuts and burns rooks, condemning the retreating soldiers to death. Probably, during the time of the persecution of the Mongols, he already believed in an easy victory, and the blow of the Mongols plunged him into a state of shock, followed by panic - an unaccountable horror covering his eyes.
          Mstislav Stary and Mstislav Udatny from the very beginning did not divide the power over the army, during the persecution they probably were completely bitter, and perhaps the Kiev prince simply did everything in spite to the prince of Galicia: if only it had not worked out. And, perhaps, he had some alternative sources of information about the Mongols, and he understood that not everything would be simple. Arranging a fortified camp, I decided to play it safe.
          1. Engineer 12 November 2019 13: 08 New
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            And he ordered to kill all the captured soldiers.
            This story is more credible, since it was clearly written from the words of an eyewitness Mongol.

            What kind of source? This is not Juvaini, not Rashid al-Din, not Ibn al-Asir
            1. karabass 12 November 2019 13: 29 New
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              I join, which source?
            2. VLR
              VLR 12 November 2019 13: 36 New
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              This is an excerpt from the Bulgarian annals, which M. Usmanov, I. Gilyazov, Yu. Begunov consider authentic, and Yu. Shamiloglu, O. Pritsak, V. Shnirelman, S. Tsviklinsky, I. Izmailov dispute its authenticity.
              1. Engineer 12 November 2019 19: 11 New
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                Nevertheless, I believe that such sources must be indicated in the body of the article and cited with the appropriate reservations.
          2. Engineer 12 November 2019 13: 37 New
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            In all chronicles, the name of the river is given in the plural: on Kalki

            Strange
            Source
            http://rutenica.narod.ru/kalka.html#i21
            Ipatiev Chronicle
            days to Kalka river

            Novgorod
            according to them, the idosha of the 9th day, and zadosha for Kalak poku


            What else seemed strange
            How did the chronicle keep the name of the head of the Tatar avant-garde Gemyabek in the turmoil of battle, provided that few people were saved?
            Well, what else from school surprised me
            If all the people of Kiev died, as follows from the logic of the annals, then where are the details of the betrayal of Ploskini known, and also this:
            And the Tatars do it after the Russian princes, flying to Dnepr; and the city of that skeleton has 2 governor є Tsygyrkan8 and Teshyukan

            The Novgorod Chronicle reports the names of the Tatar military leaders besieging the Kiev camp. Oh how !!!!
            Anyone have any thoughts?
            1. VLR
              VLR 12 November 2019 13: 49 New
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              Yes, this is alarming in Russian sources: there shouldn’t be any living witnesses, and suddenly a colorful story about the Tatar "feast on the bones", Ploskina, the names of the Tatar commanders besieging Kiev ... Where did such details come from? From the Tatars who came with Batu Khan, then learned?
              But the name of the captive centurion, which Mstislav gave out to the Polovtsy, perhaps, could have been preserved in the stories of the warriors who had fled with him from Kalka.
            2. Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 14: 27 New
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              Quote: Engineer
              Anyone have any thoughts?

              Just a thought, nothing more.
              The execution of the Russian princes was carried out with imagination, demonstratively. Such an event would only make sense if everyone and everyone knew about it and would be completely meaningless if no one knew about it. There have been several examples in history when the victors, having executed the vanquished, leave several people alive to tell their people what happened - to frighten, demoralize, etc. Perhaps here we are dealing with just such a case.
              1. Engineer 12 November 2019 19: 15 New
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                Probably.
                It is theoretically possible to consider the martyrdom of princes a legend, but the mention of individual Mongol commanders says that most likely the common source of the Ipatiev and Novgorod annals was very well informed.
  3. Mcar 12 November 2019 06: 21 New
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    Mongols in Russia.

    Who is the Mongols here? The ancestors of the Mongols from present-day Mongolia?
    1. Ehanatone 13 November 2019 03: 27 New
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      "Who is the Mongols here? Ancestors of the Mongols from present-day Mongolia?"
      And the tradition is not fresh for a long time, and is hard to believe! ...
  4. Far B 12 November 2019 06: 24 New
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    In the conditions of the strongest fragmentation of Russia, the miracle is that so many princes managed to unite their efforts. But it would be better if they didn’t do this - the feuds still did not allow a uniform fist to be created from a large army. And the author is right - there was no need to go to hell in those years to fight incomprehensible Mongols with whom they had never crossed before. Something resembling the campaigns of Svyatoslav - there is a lot of glory, zero sense. And in the end - and death at all.
    1. Nestorych 12 November 2019 10: 53 New
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      It was necessary to go, in any case, they would later come to us. It would be wise to defeat them with joint forces with the Polovtsy, but the fragmentation of the troops led to defeat.
    2. Ehanatone 13 November 2019 03: 24 New
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      "Something resembling the campaigns of Svyatoslav - there is a lot of glory, zero sense"
      Khozaria Facebook, badly battered ..
  5. wooja 12 November 2019 06: 47 New
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    the author is telling and boring, and there were no Russians as a nation then ..., there were Russian princes, but no people. Most of the Princes were directly related to the Polovtsy, well, they got Lyuli from the Tatars ...., and they began to be related to the Tatars, then they changed their orientation and began to be related to the Germans ..., the Russian elite of international origin ..., the author persecutes ... very weak the article, even Nosovsky and Fomenko look more serious ..., against the background of this kindergarten babble
  6. gorenina91 12 November 2019 07: 05 New
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    -And again ... as always ... -Of the three allegedly participating in the Battle of Kalka ... Russians, Polovtsy and Mongols ... -You can clearly, clearly and specifically describe and imagine only Russians ... - And the Polovtsy and the Mongols ...- as always sketchy ...
    -And again ...- "Tatars", "Tartats", "Kipchaks", "Polovtsy", "Mongols" and so on ...
    -And then all somewhere disappear at once and ... and only Russians remain ... -And the Tatars, who also exist today, as it turns out ..- also have little to do with those "Tatars" ...
    -Yes, with whom did prince Russia constantly then fight ??? - Most likely ...- with herself ...
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Edward Vashchenko 12 November 2019 07: 52 New
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      Good morning,
      that's right
      As described in the sources, it is so: about whom there is more detailed information - that is described.
      -And the Tatars, which also exist today, as it turns out ..- also have little to do with those "Tatars" ...


      This is where it turned out?
      If you don’t read the “alternative” and don’t bother with this, everything is in its place: all Tatars come from their ancestors from the times described, just the ethnic groups changed their names or changed under the influence of neighbors (for example, Russians) or due to other processes.
      Russian Azerbaijani ethnic groups were also called Tatars, and all peoples and tribes that spoke similar languages ​​(Turkic).
      Crimean Tatars are mainly descendants of the Polovtsy, Kazan - the Bulgars, etc.
      Sincerely.
      1. karabass 12 November 2019 13: 34 New
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        There is an opinion supported by historical documents that the Tatars of the (not autochthonous) Tatars were called by the Mongols themselves, for them this word meant approximately the same as for the ancient Romans the word "barbarian" - all other (not Mongols) nomads
        1. Operator 12 November 2019 13: 48 New
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          Mongols and Russian Tatars called people speaking Turkic languages ​​- residents of the Crimea, Transcaucasia, Kazakhstan, Central and Central Asia.

          Turkic and Mongolian languages ​​are part of the Tungus-Manchu language family.
    3. stalki 12 November 2019 08: 24 New
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      -And then all somewhere disappear at once and ... and only Russians remain ... -And the Tatars, who also exist today, as it turns out ..- also have little to do with those "Tatars" ...
      -Yes, with whom did prince Russia constantly then fight ??? - Most likely ...- with herself ...
      Reply
      Have you read the article carefully? This is generally a theoretical description of the causes of the Mongol invasion of Russia, the initial stage. In addition, at the end of the article it is written
      Some oddities of the initial stage of the war between the Mongols and the Russian principalities will be discussed in the next article.
    4. Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 14: 33 New
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      Quote: gorenina91
      Tatars, Tartats, Kipchaks, Polovtsy, Mongols

      Irina, how are you, how small?
      Well, read something on this topic already - who are the Tatars and their fate, who are the Mongols (moals), Kipchaks (the self-name of those whom the Russians called “Polovtsy”), this has long been known and is discussed only in the most marginal pseudoscientific circles. Nobody has disappeared anywhere, the descendants of those, and others, and third, and tenths live in this world to this day.
      1. gorenina91 12 November 2019 15: 19 New
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        -Yes, the fact is that in the world there is a whole layer of fairy tales and many fairy tales even have a historical background ... -And what is not in these fairy tales ...- at least take and write a dissertation on any historical episode ... -Although about "City of Kitezh"; at least about "Ilya Muromets"; at least about the "Serpent of Gorynych" and so on ... -Today, even some undertook to assert that during the time of Princely Russia crocodiles were found in the rivers and so on ... -and cite drawings, some "excerpts" from chronicles, etc. as evidence. P....
        - At that time there were already universities in Europe; already the students sang in full Gaudeamus; and:
        "In the French side
        On an alien planet,
        Is learning
        I'm at the university. "
        -Dante already wrote his "Divine Comedy" and so on ... and so on ...
        -And in Russia, some kind of "aliens" from Space tormented the poor population ... and demanded a tribute ...- But they themselves didn’t want to seize Russia itself .., they only more "roofed" ...
        -And how they looked ...- a complete discrepancy ... -And then all at once worked out an external common stereotype of these conquerors ... that, ...-they were the Mongoloids and nomads ... - they decided on that. ..
        -It seems that this all happened in 2-3 centuries BC ... and not 800 years ago ...
        1. Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 15: 31 New
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          I will say more: Charlemagne died in Europe, and Rurik was not born yet. smile Like Dante was not yet born at the time of the invasion.
          We were not lucky to live at the junction of Asia and Europe. Western Europe from the 8th century I didn’t know external intrusions. We are all aliens from that “Cosmos” - from the Great Steppe, only some came earlier, others later. Our ancestors were somewhere in the middle, respectively, were forced to push those who came earlier in the back and constantly brushed aside those who followed.
          1. 3x3zsave 12 November 2019 19: 56 New
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            "Drag, girls, paint, soot,
            Lying on face makeup
            Rurik rides from Europe,
            The first prince is our legal "(C) laughing
            1. Korsar4 12 November 2019 20: 35 New
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              "Sorry, the saucer is full, but there’s no one to turn the table with,
              To ask you, Rurik "(c).
              1. 3x3zsave 12 November 2019 20: 51 New
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                What to ask from Rurik,
                What about Monomakh ...
                Tables to break legs
                Yes saucers gasp
                1. Korsar4 12 November 2019 20: 57 New
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                  "As predicted by the saints: everything hangs in the balance,
                  I look at this matter in Old Russian longing "(c).
        2. Hantengri 12 November 2019 19: 50 New
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          Quote: gorenina91
          -And how they looked ...- a complete discrepancy ...

          Who? When it was?
          Quote: gorenina91
          -And then all at once worked out an external general stereotype of these conquerors ... that, ... - they were Mongoloids and nomads ... - they decided on that ...

          Who worked out? When it was?
          Quote: gorenina91
          -It seems that this all happened in 2-3 centuries BC ... and not 800 years ago ...

          800 years is also a term. "A lot of water has flowed. No one already remembers anything. And everyone who at least remembered something was soaked a long time ago." (with) laughing
    5. Ehanatone 13 November 2019 03: 30 New
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      "Yes, with whom, then, did prince Russia constantly fight ???? - Most likely ...- with itself ..."
      Although you would occasionally read books ..!
  7. Prometey 12 November 2019 07: 46 New
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    The story is interesting, but a huge temporary abyss turns it only into a legend.
    When you read about these Mongols, one thing is not clear - wherever they appear, they beat everyone up, walked thousands of kilometers for the sake of courage, apparently just played war games. Losses, obviously, they did not have at all, not even military ones. Their army was very mobile, only siege vehicles delivered them by air or made crafts on the spot, or what?
    1. Edward Vashchenko 12 November 2019 08: 30 New
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      Sergey,
      If you look at the history without taking into account the realities of that period, based only on current logic, it is difficult to understand this, I agree with you.
      The Mongols also suffered defeats more than once, the author of the article in the chapters about Khorezm has this.
      In the steppes, the quick replenishment of losses in personnel did not occur at the expense of the younger generations (naturally and biologically), but due to the inclusion of new adults on the horde under various conditions: a contract, twinning, adoption, force, the ability to change status (slaves) in battle, hiring, etc., that is, through other mechanisms than just the birth of offspring.
      Hence the completely stupid questions, here in the comments, really in Mongolia those Mongols who conquered the world: they were completely lost, and they lost their warlike fervor only by the 18th century.
      Ethnic movements did not go along the biological, but along the social line, which is why the DNA “analysis” often cited here is stupid.
      In the Middle Ages, siege weapons from all armies were "mastering" in place, at the siege object, so master engineers were very much appreciated: who is easier to deliver to the fortress: a tribunal or a master?
      Sincerely.
  8. Edward Vashchenko 12 November 2019 07: 50 New
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    A clear and understandable statement.
    Very good!
    Thank you!
    I wanted to add one point, it does not apply to the author’s presentation, and this is a general historical question:
    Who participated in the campaign on Kalka from the Russians: it can be assumed that for the most part the princes, and they were equestrian, of course could move in boats. It seems that the militia of the cities was not involved, there is little data. The city-states of Russia were too pragmatic to go into the steppe of hopelessness: what are the benefits there? And the princes, all the more connected by family ties with the Polovtsy, “for the sake of glory and success”, could go on long trips with their squad, volunteers, and not with the howls of cities.
    Fundamentally, the city militia (a thousand) was an independent force, the squad was independent. The city militia did not submit to the princes, the veche - the city assembly - determined priorities.
    1. Sunstorm 13 November 2019 17: 38 New
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      Quote: Edward Vashchenko
      It seems that the militia of the cities was not involved, there is little data. The city-states of Russia were too pragmatic to go into the steppe of hopelessness: what are the benefits there?
      I will join your question. The only thing I have is a chaotic hypothesis .. unproven, theoretical "Kotyan deceived the Russians by promising an easy victory over the enemy burdened with prey", for the sake of great prey, in principle, the city militia could also come forward. All the same, the Russian motivation for the battle looks "very unusual" .. so many years dogged with the Polovtsy ... and here they rushed into a joint battle .. against the little-known enemy, who, in principle, was still not considered the enemy ... Just theorizing my a glance at this could only be prompted by a thirst for easy money. On the other hand, to go to the steppe with an infantry squad .. It also seems strange. But didn’t the Polovtsy know what the Russian army looked like? So they knew 100%, and yet they probably called them because they needed infantry (as far as I remember, the Polovtsy had excellent cavalry), and why do we need infantry? Only a siege of fortresses comes to mind, perhaps a trip to one of the fortresses where the Mongols stored "booty" was supposed to be ... Honestly, not a single name comes to mind .... Although, everything is probably misplaced and the campaign was planned for the Bulgar .. .from here and the subsequent campaign of the Mongols on the Bulgars and their defeat due to the lack of infantry ... (do not kick in slippers just a hypothesis)
      1. Edward Vashchenko 13 November 2019 22: 12 New
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        do not kick slippers just a hypothesis

        What are you, but why not!
        There are generally more questions than answers on this topic.
        Best regards hi
  9. edeligor 12 November 2019 07: 55 New
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    Thank you very much for the article, very interesting and informative. I consider controversial figures, imagine a 30 thousandth army in those days. The convoy, movement ... a locust flock, the first comparison. Most likely, everything was much more modest.
    1. Hantengri 12 November 2019 08: 21 New
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      Quote: edeligor
      Thank you very much for the article, very interesting and informative. I consider controversial figures, imagine a 30 thousandth army in those days. The convoy, movement ... a locust flock, the first comparison. Most likely, everything was much more modest.

      Of course more modest. 2 battered tumens arrived at Kalka, i.e. 20 thousand minus losses for 3 years of battles and campaigns.
  10. alexey alexeyev_2 12 November 2019 07: 57 New
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    Mdya ... The Mongols of Genghis Khan are a people with such brilliant intellectual potential and suddenly find themselves on the sidelines of history .. Even they forgot their story ... the author, stop carrying a blizzard ... How much can all be blamed on the Mongols? While I see one sane comment, the author of which claims that by that time the princes no longer understood who was fighting with whom and for what. Russia fought with itself. You look at the illustrations for the article and write with laughter .... Bullshit ..and besides, sucked from your finger ..
    1. Alexander Suvorov 12 November 2019 08: 16 New
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      alexey alexeyev_2 (alexey alexeyev)
      Mdya ... The Mongols of Genghis Khan are a people with such brilliant intellectual potential and suddenly find themselves on the sidelines of history.
      And what bothers you? The Roman Empire narrowed to modern Italy. The empire of Alexander of Macedonia to modern either Macedonia or northern Greece. The Arab Caliphate, so what the hell did it turn into. And what of that?
      Why are all the alternatives doubts about the Mongols?
      1. alexey alexeyev_2 12 November 2019 11: 16 New
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        Mnu is embarrassed by one thing ... Through the efforts of people like you, the Mongols got a luxurious story .. Although they were up to the lantern. He lived in Transbaikalia for a while .. Faced with the Mongols .. Those who were literate knew only at school that they had such a leader. there are no tales of legends about those times. Although the topic is Wow !! .. Shpakovsky is often printed on VO .. So he once spanned the Japanese garden ... Although if you look at all the "merit" of the Japanese in the extermination of the Ainu. But what a beautiful story they wrote to them ..Even the gods helped them. Well, this is when the Mongol fleet was sunk .. By the way, about the fleet we drowned .. postavimoe number of vessels could expose you know when? Guess with three raz..Pravilno-Allied landing in Normandii.No collected from around the world ...
        1. Alexander Suvorov 12 November 2019 11: 21 New
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          alexey alexeyev_2 (alexey alexeyev)
          Mnu is embarrassed by one thing ... Through the efforts of people like you, the Mongols have a magnificent story.
          That is, you have not answered the question.
          So the history of ancient Rome, the empire of Alexander the Great, the Arab caliphate does not bother you, but does the history of the Mongols cause an attack of schizophrenia?
          At one time he lived in Transbaikalia .. Faced with the Mongols .. Those who are literate, only at school they learned that they had such a leader.
          Come on? And about the highest horse statue in the world, a monument to Genghis Khan, they also did not hear?
          1. alexey alexeyev_2 12 November 2019 13: 37 New
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            Well ... Let’s not touch the history of Rome .. But you will explain: How did the legends about Alexander the Great come together in the Russian folklore, united under the common name Alexandria. It was not like the Slavs at that time. And the Poles even claim that their commander is what then Leshka I don’t remember the last name defeated the Macedonians. Also schizophrenia ..? And the monument was built in 2009 .. Ordinary kitsch .. values-zero ...
            1. Alexander Suvorov 12 November 2019 15: 25 New
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              alexey alexeyev_2 (alexey alexeyev)
              Well ... Let’s not touch the history of Rome .. But here you will explain: How did the tales of Alexander the Great appear in Russian folklore, united under the general name Alexandria.
              What kind of nonsense? What is Russian folklore and how sideways is Alexander of Macedon to it? Something I know of the epic Ilya of Muromets, but the first time I hear the epic of Alexander the Great.
              Alexandria is a city in Egypt!
              It seems that at that time there were no Slavs. And the Poles even claim that their commander, some kind of Leszek, I won’t remember the name, defeated the Macedonians. Schizophrenia too ...?
              Of course schizophrenia, exactly the same as that of ancient ukrov.
              And the monument was built in 2009 .. Ordinary kitsch .. values-zero ...
              This is from your comments of value ZERO!

              Tell me, were there Kazan, Astrakhan, Siberian, Crimean Khanates? Or is it also fiction?
              1. alexey alexeyev_2 12 November 2019 16: 56 New
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                Delirium is not delirium, and the book is in my personal library .. It is printed on my order .. It’s also called Alexandria .. Publishing - Olma - press. 2009. Also the Slavic kingdom-Mavro Orbini Scythian story-Andrei Lyzlov .. from five authors. Yes, the Poles and Ukrainians were with them .. About the khanates they were completely ... Although there are also questions. These archives often burned after joining Russia .. I will tell you a family secret .. I am a descendant of the Lithuanian Tatar .. Although Russian passport.
                1. edeligor 13 November 2019 14: 24 New
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                  I will put my 5 cents in the cashier of your dispute.
                  Quote: alexey alexeyev_2
                  These archives often burned after joining Russia ..
                  Namely, plus the requests of the nobility and others doing their family tree ... The story is both ours and general, for the most part a story told to the people at the request of the customer and not based on facts. About the Mongols. What do you think, how many Mongols were in the "invasion army"? And what was that army like? God grant that the Mongols were there 10 percent, and the size of the army, 10 thousand no more!
        2. Hantengri 12 November 2019 12: 18 New
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          Quote: alexey alexeyev_2
          A comparable number of ships were able to exhibit when did you know?

          I wonder how many ships do you need to transport a couple of tumens?
          Quote: alexey alexeyev_2
          Guess from three times .. Correct landing of allies in Normandy. But collected from around the world ...

          1096 the first crusade. Take an interest.
          1. alexey alexeyev_2 12 November 2019 13: 49 New
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            With or without horses? In the first crusade participated no more than 30 thousand .. Get on foot .. You probably mean 4 crusades. Then the ships were hired from Venice
    2. karabass 12 November 2019 13: 37 New
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      BRAVO!!! Yes, of course! And miraculously preserved,
      priceless historical documents need to be thrown in the trash!
      1. alexey alexeyev_2 12 November 2019 17: 03 New
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        Why throw it away .. You have to work with them. Attracting specialists and not some blinded historians. Most of the ancient documents are copies taken by unknown people. Original at least one is pliz. Probably the time has come to separate the lamb from the goats and the grain from the chaff ..
    3. Ehanatone 13 November 2019 03: 39 New
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      "by that time, the princes no longer understood who was fighting with whom and for what. Russia was at war with itself." You look at the illustrations for the article and you write with laughter ... ""
      You need to drink less, or then have a bite, and be sure not to read the Fomenko before it ...
      Read better "idiot" - it will be much more necessary for you! ...
      1. alexey alexeyev_2 13 November 2019 08: 09 New
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        Here you explain to me. Fomenko is one of the leading specialists in mathematics in statistical analysis. Not one discipline does not dispense with and does not object to the use of this method .. Besides historians. Those who have blood come from the tooth when it is mentioned .. Tantrum comes. they propose to establish the Inquisition .... Idiot read .. Not the most powerful novel by Fedor Mikhalych ..
  11. Hantengri 12 November 2019 08: 09 New
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    The problem was that the main force of the Russian squads was traditionally infantry, which was delivered to the place of general gathering on boats.

    Valery, and you accidentally X ||| century c | X not confused?
  12. kalibr 12 November 2019 08: 28 New
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    Quote: Alexander Suvorov
    Why are all the alternatives doubts about the Mongols?

    Because they beat our ancestors and prevented them from building the pyramids in Egypt!
    1. Edward Vashchenko 12 November 2019 08: 31 New
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      build pyramids in Egypt!

      Strong!!!!
      1. Pane Kohanku 12 November 2019 09: 41 New
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        Strong!!!!

        The Western world has always been alien to Russian self-identity, and he stuck us with wheels in wheels, starting with Egypt. stop Santorin was also blown up by order of Phoenician-American capital, thereby discarding the great Russian-Cretan culture in development! yes all this - the machinations of Anglo-Saxon culture against the Russian superethnos! fellow so normal? wink in our opinion? drinks
        1. Hantengri 12 November 2019 10: 03 New
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          Quote: Pan Kohanku
          The Western world has always been alien to Russian self-identity, and he stuck us with wheels in wheels, starting with Egypt.

          It all started long before the invention of the wheel. It all started that day when the monkey first picked up a stick and mumbled something like: "Fucking russian bitch!" hit her with another monkey, who was just about to become the ancestor of the Russian superethnos. hi
          1. Engineer 12 November 2019 10: 18 New
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            More accurately please, and then Samsonov will read. We will see an article about the Masters of the West in the Paleolithic
            1. Pane Kohanku 12 November 2019 10: 36 New
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              We will see an article about the Masters of the West in the Paleolithic

              well, minus someone already slapped me .... wink Denis, it would be interesting, really! From the point of view of resettlement, I venture to suggest that the owners of the West then were Neanderthals. wink Brutal, strong, with reduced speech skills, aggressive cannibals - what are the aggressors of the time compared to the spiritually developed Slavic-Cro-Magnons? fellow drinks
              1. Engineer 12 November 2019 10: 53 New
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                I think Mr. Samsonov is capable of more than such direct analogies. Undoubtedly, World behind the scenes is something more sophisticated, and Neanderthals were just a blind tool.)
                1. Pane Kohanku 12 November 2019 11: 01 New
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                  Undoubtedly, World behind the scenes is something more, and the Neanderthals were just a blind tool.)

                  Do you suspect ... synanthropes ?? belay I always knew that the Chinese can not be trusted! angry The first backroom sages were Sinan, then they migrated, and became Zion, but even they are just a cover, since the insidious inhabitants of ice-cold Antarctica rule everything. yes
                  What do you think, they will hand me the sad Oscar reptiloid? Pull for the LIE award? drinks or weak yet? publications are not enough, yes, I admit ... recourse
          2. Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 14: 47 New
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            Quote: HanTengri
            It all started that day when the monkey first picked up a stick

            which she, not otherwise, slipped into another monkey with the words "Beaclach." laughing
            1. Pane Kohanku 12 November 2019 15: 38 New
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              which another monkey slipped into her

              I recall a Soviet joke about how in one of the fraternal southern republics the pope explains to his son who came from which monkey. laughing drinks
            2. Hantengri 12 November 2019 20: 10 New
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              Quote: Trilobite Master
              which she, not otherwise, slipped into another monkey with the words "Beaclach."

              Which, in turn, persuaded to this insidious reptiloid. (The descendants of this "other" monkey then, in the book of Genesis, tried to cover up their tracks by replacing the stick with an abstract "fruit", and the shabby helmet with a pretty chick ... But they put the reptiloid there in full!) laughing
              1. Pane Kohanku 13 November 2019 09: 26 New
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                Which, in turn, persuaded to this insidious reptiloid.

                Yes, yes, yes, that was all! drinks and he wrote a cunning plan in collaboration with a bloodthirsty penguin drinker!
                1. Hantengri 13 November 2019 09: 54 New
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                  Definitely. He even managed to slap a minus for you. Nervous. It is firing. drinks
                  1. Pane Kohanku 13 November 2019 10: 16 New
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                    He even managed to slap a minus for you. Nervous. It is firing.

                    Igor, it’s he who balances my yin and yang. To be equally divided, and harmony has come. laughing drinks
        2. alexey alexeyev_2 12 November 2019 11: 19 New
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          Russophobe is immediately visible .... It will not bring you to good
          1. Pane Kohanku 12 November 2019 11: 22 New
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            Russophobe is immediately visible .... It will not bring you to good

            Is that me, sorry? ....
            1. Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 19: 57 New
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              And who else, Nikolai? Then there are many Russophobes?
              Although, it’s just enough here ... I’m a Jewish Tatar-Russophobe, you don’t know what you will be, well, a little more people will pick up, there are all sorts of Lopars, hamayuns, Erzya, Poles and these will not be remembered by night, especially smart, who know everything ... And you, by the way, what kind of Russophobic diaspora will you represent?
              laughing
              1. Korsar4 12 November 2019 20: 40 New
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                Here without the method from "About the poor hussar put in the word" can not do:

                "-Women on the passport - to the right.
                - Men on the passport - to the left "(s).

                In general, how tired of the shortcuts. Swearing, and even without imagination, is not what Remarque has.
                1. Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 20: 52 New
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                  Quote: Korsar4
                  shortcuts tired

                  If I refuse the terms “novokhronolozhets”, “folkhistorics”, “pseudoscientific freak” I still have to come up with new ones, otherwise how to identify them? And they, too, as without the "Russophobe"? There is no getting anywhere. Or fight them for your own pleasure (I love this thing good ), or enjoy a continuously increasing amount of their bowel movements. We’ll fight for a month or more, fight back and again for some time normally we can discuss normal topics.
                  1. Korsar4 12 November 2019 21: 04 New
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                    "The Slavophiles and the nihilists are coming.
                    Those and others have not clean nails "(c).

                    Metaphysics: how many tantalizing topics will a section survive in a month?
                    1. Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 21: 53 New
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                      Quote: Korsar4
                      tantalizing topics
                      in the “History” section there are at least three of them and they are win-win: “Rurik and Slavs”, “Mongols and Russia” and “Revolution-1917” - “sharp polemic” is provided. I think when Valery finishes the topic with the Mongols, the passions quickly subside, the people get tired. Novokhronolozhtsy will calculate their minuses and go to other sections to patch up gaps in the rating, shouting patriotic slogans like "Russia ponad mustache", and here we will peacefully flood in the articles of Shpakovsky, Vashchenko, the same Ryzhov, if Valery does not find any new provocative topic , of course. smile
                      But while there is a reason - we have fun here and now. laughing
                      1. Korsar4 12 November 2019 22: 05 New
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                        Introduced a column marching with a cry: "El pueblo unido Hamas sir vencido."
                      2. Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 22: 09 New
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                        But pasaran, camarade! smile
                    2. Pane Kohanku 13 November 2019 10: 00 New
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                      Colleagues, during the conversation with you, I realized that each of us is different, but much more interesting to "open each other" than to hang tags. drinks Because everyone has talents in bulk, you just need to make out yes By the labels, by the way, we have the Caliber record holder, he can even paste a wall in the toilet with them - so much has accumulated. fellow and the rest fill the toilet laughing
                      I am a Jewish Tatar-Russophobe

                      yeah, from Luga laughing yes, yes, I remember, there used to be a large colony of Jewish Tatars-Russophobes. It is also indicated on maps of the XNUMXth century. Ivan The Terribl blinked ... He came to Novgorod with the guardsmen, but not to Luga.laughing drinks
                      But while there is a reason - we have fun here and now.

                      like good old times". When you run to the site to chat. drinks Will live!
                    3. Korsar4 13 November 2019 21: 44 New
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                      The site is live. And there is something to say, and there is someone.
                      So far, we are not repeating ourselves often yet. But there is such a threat.
                      However, the "dark periods" that did not fall into the discussion are still enough.
                    4. Pane Kohanku 14 November 2019 10: 04 New
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                      The site is live. And there is something to say, and there is someone.

                      exactly! good removed from the tongue, Sergey. drinks
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka 12 November 2019 21: 23 New
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        Quote: Pan Kohanku
        Russophobe is immediately visible .... It will not bring you to good

        Is that me, sorry? ....

        Well, firstly, Nikolai is not a Russophobe, but a catophile!
        Secondly, the newest tradition of inventing a story with little rivulets and candy wrappers is silly and unpromising. This is some kind of modern narcissism! With its 1000-year history, Russia, even younger than the pyramids of Egypt, is definitely older than many countries of the world, including the United States. I don’t understand why “sculpt a hunchback” if there are enough gaps and spaces in the realities of our present history!
        1. Mordvin 3 12 November 2019 21: 40 New
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          Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Russia with its 1000 summer history

          She’s been like more years. It simply cannot be such that a hundred years later, like our ancestors from the tree, they began to send letters of 11-12 century:
          From Mikita to Anna. Follow me - I want you, and you want me; and then witness Ignat Moiseyev

          From Polchka (or: Polochka) to ... [After you (?)] Took the girl from Domaslav, Domaslav took 12 hryvnia from me. 12 hryvnia came. If you don’t send, then I will stand (meaning: with you for trial) before the prince and the bishop; then get ready for more loss

          https://aif.ru/society/history/srednevekovoe_sms-soobshchenie_o_chyom_pisali_na_rusi_na_berestyanyh_gramotah
          1. Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 22: 14 New
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            Quote: mordvin xnumx
            That's impossible

            And why? A hundred years is three to four generations. My great-grandmother died illiterate.
            1. Mordvin 3 12 November 2019 22: 21 New
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              Quote: Trilobite Master
              My great-grandmother died illiterate.

              So this does not mean that at the time of your great-grandmother there were no letters. request
              For a hundred years, they invented letters and began to massively spread letters about sausage and cowardly lovers? Oh, come on! I do not believe in such mutants.
              1. Town Hall 12 November 2019 22: 25 New
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                When was the isotope analysis done to determine the age of these “historical finds”? Which no one has found for 1000 years ... and then how badly ... they "find" wagons
                1. Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 22: 36 New
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                  Quote: Town Hall
                  When was the isotope analysis done to determine the age of these “historical finds”?

                  They are dated by dendrochronology, or rather. And chronicle dating very exactly coincide with dendrochronological. They didn’t find 1000 years because they didn’t search, or rather, didn’t recognize what they found. How many letters were lost because of this, it is scary to think. How much valuable information is in them is just a nightmare.
                  VL Yanin has such a work, "I sent you birch bark." It is written easily and interestingly, I recommend it for review.
                2. Town Hall 12 November 2019 22: 53 New
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                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  V.L. Yanina

                  This leader is the founder of these wonderful discoveries together with Arcekhovsky ... a very trustworthy source.
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  dendrochronology, or rather. AND

                  Modestly keep silent ...
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  How many letters were lost because of this

                  But when the process started ..
                  a small fragment No. 612, found by a resident of Novgorod Chelnokov at home in a flower pot during a flower transplant
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  a small fragment No. 612, found by a resident of Novgorod Chelnokov at home in a flower pot during a flower transplant

                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  for review.

                  I got acquainted with the "statistics" of these wonderful finds. Very eloquent figures

                  Veliky Novgorod 1122 certificates
                  and 1 birch bark icon
                  Staraya Russa 51
                  Torzhok 19
                  Smolensk 16
                  Pskov 8
                  Tver 5
                  Moscow 4
                  Zvenigorod Galitsky (Ukraine) 3
                  Mstislavl (Belarus) 2
                  Vitebsk (Belarus) 1
                  Old Ryazan 1
                  Vologda 1
                3. Goshat 13 November 2019 00: 22 New
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                  Quote: Town Hall
                  Modestly keep silent.

                  And you are not silent - it’s immediately clear, you are a noble specialist! )))))))))))))) So please us with the details!
                  It is always nice to watch how a person who is trying to pass as an expert in an area of ​​which he has no idea) puffs out his cheeks))))))))))
                4. xax
                  xax 13 November 2019 00: 49 New
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                  Quote: Gosh
                  in the area of ​​which there is no representation

                  And in general - the humanities))
                  In a bad sense of the word
              2. Korsar4 13 November 2019 09: 47 New
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                And what did not please dendrochronology? There, of course, there are nuances.

                But I really like the phrase of one German: "Trees are not mistaken in evaluating the changes that have taken place because they have a good memory - tree rings."
              3. Town Hall 13 November 2019 09: 54 New
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                Quote: Korsar4
                And what did not please dendrochronology? There, of course, there are nuances.

                But I really like the phrase of one German: "Trees are not mistaken in evaluating the changes that have taken place because they have a good memory - tree rings."

                It is amazing how often people do not think about the meaning of words.
                Birch bark, or birch bark, is the top layer (white outer part) of the birch bark
                Where on the birch bark there are annual rings .. and even in the amount of many hundreds and thousands?
              4. Korsar4 13 November 2019 10: 52 New
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                And where in the remark about dendrochronology was about birch bark?
              5. Town Hall 13 November 2019 11: 12 New
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                And we are not discussing birch bark letters?
              6. Korsar4 13 November 2019 11: 16 New
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                And them too. Your skepticism was about dendrochronology.

                Colleagues responded. Convincing enough.
              7. Town Hall 13 November 2019 12: 11 New
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                You have difficulty reading posts. The discussion was about dendrochronology and birch bark.
                Trilobite Master
                Yesterday, 22: 36
                +8
                Quote: Town Hall
                When was the isotope analysis done to determine the age of these “historical finds”?

                They are dated by dendrochronology, or rather. And the chronicle dates very exactly coincide with dendrochronological
                Quote: Korsar4
                Colleagues responded. Convincing enough

                Yeah. At the academic level, you can say. Colleagues, they are such colleagues.
              8. Geo⁣ 13 November 2019 12: 24 New
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                Town Hall, do not disgrace. You’ve got everything sorted into shelves - and where the tree came from (in archeology as in geology there is the concept of a layer - it’s enough to date the layer to interpolate its age on all its material), and due to this, the possibility of such remote dating is achieved. Behave, frankly, indecent and frankly stupid. When everything is so detailed, it is no longer a matter of having knowledge - it is a matter of having intelligence.
              9. xax
                xax 13 November 2019 12: 37 New
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                Quote: Town Hall
                Yeah. At the academic level, you can say. Colleagues, they are such colleagues.

                There are two main types of self-righteous people: in the former this illness is from the mind, in the latter from its complete absence. If the former are unpleasant, the latter are simply ridiculous.
              10. Trilobite Master 13 November 2019 18: 26 New
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                You really don’t know how the letters date? Read Ioannina. And in short, then on the layers of Novgorod bridge, consisting of logs, on which tree rings are preserved in the conditions of Novgorod.
                You, not knowing such things, undertake to talk about birch bark letters? I envy you. You probably live easily.
              11. Town Hall 14 November 2019 01: 20 New
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                It’s normal for me. And it flutters to you with a butterfly. Comrade Yanin explained everything to you in life
              12. Geo⁣ 14 November 2019 09: 45 New
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                Quote: Town Hall
                I live normally.

                No one doubts. Dead and stupid, remember, grief for others - they themselves do not notice their condition
  13. xax
    xax 13 November 2019 10: 53 New
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    Quote: Town Hall
    Where on the birch bark there are annual rings .. and even in the amount of many hundreds and thousands?


    Now I won’t even joke. When a person does not know and asks - this is already quite normal.

    Tree - accompanies in the layer.

    Briefly the essence (or why thousands of rings are not needed). In different years, due to various climate characteristics (the duration of the warm period of a particular year, temperature characteristics, rainfall, solar radiation, the presence / absence of atypical weather events - such as frost in the warm period or thaw in the cold, etc.) and other factors annual rings of various thickness and structure are formed.
    Basically, they analyze the width of the rings, but you can add to the analysis a whole bunch of characteristics - from frost rings to the thickness of the cell wall of wood. Moreover, within the same terrain for different trees, these characteristics will change approximately the same (with a discount on species, geomorphological confinement, etc.).
    Further. In a given area, all the necessary information is collected - both on long-lived trees (oak trees 400 to 900 years old in Russia are available, in the south of the country it’s generally simple — there are yew trees), and on wood products with a known age. Then they generalize the obtained data and build general graphs of changes in the observed characteristics.
    Having then at least even a piece of a piece of wood, it can, roughly speaking, be applied to the picture obtained in different places and understand which place it corresponds to, thus determining its age.

    I managed to reveal to you the "secret" of this scientific method? )))))))
  14. The comment was deleted.
  15. Korsar4 13 November 2019 13: 39 New
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    Let's try the points.
    Answer it yourself.

    1. Can a pine trunk under the soil layers survive 1-2 thousand years?
  16. Town Hall 13 November 2019 13: 42 New
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    In some exceptional conditions, maybe
  17. Korsar4 13 November 2019 14: 10 New
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    All right.

    2. Is there an accumulation of the cultural layer in cities?

    (Examples: old botanical gardens are located in the so-called “endova.” In old temples, for example in Damascus, it is necessary to descend from the level of modern roads).
  18. Town Hall 13 November 2019 14: 11 New
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    Course goes
  19. Korsar4 13 November 2019 14: 13 New
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    Very good.

    3. Were there wooden pavements in Russian cities?
  20. Town Hall 13 November 2019 14: 22 New
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    Rare but were
  21. Korsar4 13 November 2019 14: 58 New
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    Not so rare.
    And the subsequent pavements are higher than the previous ones.

    4. Do climatic and other external factors act simultaneously on pine trees growing in the same area?

    And a question close to this - is it possible to notice the effects of a known drought or fire on tree rings?
  22. Geo⁣ 13 November 2019 14: 06 New
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    Quote: Town Hall
    who is this illiterate nonsense intended for

    I’m lost right - for whom your illiterate nonsense is intended. I suspect that you yourself are such an attempt to chat for yourself with the realization of your own stupidity.

    But for lovers - with every word you drown yourself deeper and deeper, because your nonsense is ever more desperate and desperate laughing

    They wrote to you how and what is done even with a piece of wood. The child will understand, but you will not deceive.
  23. Engineer 13 November 2019 10: 29 New
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    Dendrochronology is really widely used for dating letters. BUT not literacy itself is analyzed, but a tree from a synchronous archaeological layer. In Novgorod, as you know, the streets were paved with wood. The road went into the mud and lay new on top of the old. Thus, there are a lot of layers in the tree. Another best way of dating is coins in the same layer, if any.
    In general, a run over to Ioannina is certainly tin. It turns out the head of the Moscow State University with dozens of graduate students and hundreds of students, the department in St. Petersburg and Novgorod for decades engaged in fraud. Conspirology in its purest form.
  24. Korsar4 13 November 2019 10: 55 New
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    That's right. And the paving trees are being investigated.

    Even fragments of wood. For example, ancient Egyptian sarcophagi.

    A cross-dating helps to come to fairly convincing conclusions.
  25. Engineer 13 November 2019 11: 08 New
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    You can also add that archaeologists find primarily where they search and dig. In Veliky Novgorod, archaeological excavations are almost the largest in the country in scale and consistency. No wonder there are so many finds.
    I also remembered this
    https://norse.ulver.com/articles/gurevich/finds.html
    The number of finds of runic writing samples in Bergen alone is comparable to the number of finds in all other places combined. Bergen trade and craft center. A good analogy with the concentration of letters in Novgorod.
  26. Korsar4 13 November 2019 11: 11 New
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    And if more ancient time, then pollen of plants can be investigated.

    But there accuracy is less, and not all types of pollen are well preserved.
  27. Geo⁣ 13 November 2019 11: 38 New
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    The spore-pollen method is more geology, moreover, mainly Quaternary. It is mainly used in geotechnical surveys in under-studied territories or territories with a complex structure, where simple stratigraphy is not enough.
  28. Korsar4 13 November 2019 11: 50 New
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    Not only. After the glacier, there are interesting notes left in the peat. And with the way of life of our ancestors in the fortifications are well connected.

    And where only this method is not used - even in forensics.
  29. Geo⁣ 13 November 2019 12: 06 New
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    Quote: Korsar4
    Not only
    Yes, at least take the paleomagnetic method - we do not mind, because we are also interested in that tiny segment of the geochronological scale that you are studying)))
  30. xax
    xax 13 November 2019 10: 55 New
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    Quote: Engineer
    Conspirology

    This is not a conspiracy thesis, this is a complete paragraph.
  31. Town Hall 13 November 2019 14: 20 New
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    Quote: Engineer
    In general, a run over to Ioannina is certainly tin. It turns out the head of the Moscow State University with dozens of graduate students and hundreds of students, the department in St. Petersburg and Novgorod for decades engaged in fraud. Conspirology in its purest form.

    And now change the name of Yanin, for example, to the name of Lysenko. Also an academician. The rest will also coincide, both about the department and about students and about regalia.
    By the way. Where did the herds of professors and academics and tens of thousands of their students of 70 years write nonsense about history, political economy and other nonsense go? Someone stripped them of their titles, departments, awards, dispersed their numerous teams, who saw tens of thousands of dissertations on the works of Lenin / Stalin, the guiding role of the party, on the history of the USSR in general and the Second World War in particular, on the Genetics-selling girl of imperialism and so on? Or is everything in place, in Academies and with all the awards and prizes? ... Conspirology, not otherwise
  32. Engineer 13 November 2019 14: 42 New
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    I do not understand you at all.
    About how they made up absolute dendrochronological scale was written by Yanin in the book recommended by Mikhail. We walked a ladder from the newest layers of boards inland. Got a relative scale. Then they did the binding. Markers were, for example, logs in the foundation of churches, the year of foundation of which was known. The second type of markers are traces of fires in the cultural layer, which are well documented in chronicles. This is how the years were recognized when a tree was cut down creating an absolute scale.
    Yanin clearly writes that the tree in the layers of the middle period of the Middle Ages was preserved in Novgorod fine due to the climate and soil.
    Why do you think that radiocarbon analysis was not done? It was carried out in the case of particularly important finds, for example, the Novgorod Code. In this case, the data of radiocarbon and dendrochronological analysis coincided well. Do you need instructions specifically for radiocarbon analysis of letters? Why is dating on coins in the cultural layer bad ?.
    Just as far as I can tell, radiocarbon analysis is heavy artillery, it needs special equipment, specialists and time.
    What is the problem?
  33. Town Hall 13 November 2019 15: 01 New
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    Quote: Engineer
    Just as far as I can tell, radiocarbon analysis is heavy artillery, it needs special equipment, specialists and time.
    What is the problem?

    Radiocarbon analysis costs $ 500. It won’t even pull on a light mortar, not like heavy artillery.
    Just an example of the Shroud of Turin taught a lesson. There, too, many dissertations and academic ranks were covered after radiocarbon analysis.
    Almost the entire population of Novgorod exchanged birch bark sms right there, consider the revolution in the history of Russia and you ... it’s a pity 500 dollars for analysis
  34. Engineer 13 November 2019 16: 53 New
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    Understand the problem of subversors. They primarily seek knowledge and logic gaps in defenders official theory. They talk a lot about the shortcomings of certain aspects of optheory and opponents, but they prefer to remain silent or give out grains about their thoughts and theories.
    Kindly formulate your thesis
    The entire archeology of Veliky Novgorod is based on incorrect dates. The cultural layers with birch bark letters are actually younger. And for concealment of the fact they use, among other things, manipulations with dendrochronology. So?
    Or so
    The dates of the cultural layers of Novgorod are generally correct, but there is a massive injection of fakes - birch bark letters into truly ancient medieval cultural layers. Therefore, specifically for letters, radiocarbon analysis is not carried out.
  35. Geo⁣ 13 November 2019 18: 50 New
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    Quote: Engineer
    massive stuffing of fakes -

    A birch bark certificate is easier to produce than a passport for radiocarbon analysis?)))
  36. Town Hall 14 November 2019 01: 27 New
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    There is nothing to subvert. The whole story of birch-bark sms was born on the orders of the party in the midst of an ever-memorable campaign to combat cosmopolitanism. This is when the serfs became the inventors of bicycles and steam locomotives, Mozhaisky became the first aircraft builder and lomonosov to be the luminary of science. his contribution to this charitable deed according to his profile.
  37. Geo⁣ 13 November 2019 18: 46 New
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    Quote: Town Hall
    now change the name of Yanin for example

    And you can change the floor of Ioannina. You can kind of activity. You can get a brain out of it and turn it into you. But why? Yanin is Yanin, and besides schizophreic nonsense, you have nothing to present to him. Having understood this, you began to “change” something in it, and then present it for it. It looks absolutely unhealthy
  38. Korsar4 13 November 2019 19: 10 New
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    This is a separate conversation. By the way, the figure of T. D. Lysenko is not so simple as to hang a label.

    You can recall Mendeleev: "Science begins when they begin to measure."

    You can read the brilliant work of Umberto Eco "How to write a thesis" for critical attitude.

    But since the chroniclers there is a universal approach:

    "What I saw myself.
    And what I heard from reliable people "(c).
  39. Mordvin 3 12 November 2019 22: 37 New
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    Quote: Town Hall
    When was the isotope analysis done to determine the age of these “historical finds”?

    To be honest, I don’t know if birch bark can be done for age analysis at all.
    Quote: Town Hall
    Which 1000 years no one has found ... and then how badly ... wagons "find"

    Did someone look for them?
    I remember in 90 they wrote that one Chinese family fed a dog from the bowl of the Ming era all his life. Accidentally discovered.
  40. Town Hall 12 November 2019 22: 56 New
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    And what historical finds are you still aware of which no one has ever found and then hundreds of literally under any fence and flower pots every year you find? And only in one place)
  41. Mordvin 3 12 November 2019 23: 03 New
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    Quote: Town Hall
    And what historical finds are you still aware of which no one has ever found and then hundreds of literally under any fence and flower pots every year you find? And only in one place)

    It was so. I don’t remember where, but hundreds of bells were unearthed. On NTV showed.
    And about birch bark. Well, I’ll find one, do you think I’ll look at it? I’ll put it in the fire, that's all. Personally, I only take good birch, not millennial.
  42. Town Hall 12 November 2019 23: 21 New
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    Quote: mordvin xnumx
    According to NTV showed.

    Good not for RenTV)
  43. xax
    xax 12 November 2019 23: 50 New
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    Quote: Town Hall
    And what historical finds are you still aware of which no one has ever found and then hundreds of literally under any fence and flower pots every year you find? And only in one place)

    Above answered - for example, all nine main layers of ancient Troy were not found by anyone at first, and then they were opened, as you put it, "hundreds every year and in one place!" laughing
    Well, most of the other finds in archeology were made mainly in one place and "hundreds every year", despite the fact that before that, the finds could be very poor or they could not be at all.
    Here, as with honey mushrooms - either I immediately found a bucket, or returned with nothing, or simply did not go for honey mushrooms)))))))
  44. Town Hall 12 November 2019 23: 20 New
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    Quote: mordvin xnumx
    To be honest, I don’t know if birch bark can be used for age analysis at all

    In 1949, Willard Libby developed radiocarbon analysis and demonstrated its suitability for samples of a tree of known age (in the range of 1400–4600 years), for which he received the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1960.
  45. Mordvin 3 12 November 2019 23: 27 New
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    Quote: Town Hall
    (in the range 1400 — 4600 years)

    The interval is that ... big, like that. Well, I don’t know, scientists probably know better. I’m a practitioner, sometimes I bark on the handle of knives, I’m planting a good thing, just collect her laziness.
  46. Town Hall 12 November 2019 23: 31 New
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    You seem to have misunderstood the interval. Whether different samples of the tree were exactly known age. There were samples with an age of 1400 years, were with an age of 4600 years. And his method was checked. The results coincided.
  47. Mordvin 3 12 November 2019 23: 37 New
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    Quote: Town Hall
    .Were different tree samples whose age was exactly known

    I don’t understand this.
    Quote: Town Hall
    The people with the age of 1400 years, were with the age of 4600 years.

    Well, how is it? Climbed Mount Ararat, Noah's ark was torn apart? Joke? So she often lies very.
  48. Town Hall 12 November 2019 23: 43 New
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    Take a walk around some Egyptian museum, for example. You will see many wood products that are 3/4 .000 years old.
  49. xax
    xax 13 November 2019 00: 17 New
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    Quote: mordvin xnumx
    scientists know better

    Scientists have long identified this method on the bench for a large percentage of its errors. Only those who do not have money to do where and either as an extra, or if they do not care about the result, do it. And for our scientists - putting money is where the road really is)
  50. xax
    xax 12 November 2019 23: 44 New
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    Quote: Town Hall
    radiocarbon analysis

    So-so method. High probability of error and floating interval. In normal research, it can now be used as a second method, to confirm, but not refute, the first. During the use of the accumulated mass of incorrectly drawn conclusions, when this method was relied on as the main one. The main problems of the method: the content of 14С in the atmosphere is not constant and probably not uniform; selective adsorption by cells of the same birch bark 14C and its uneven distribution are possible; the carbon exchange process does not necessarily end after "death" (the processes of decay, diffusion, etc. continue to occur), etc. etc.

    Not knowing the method put it at the forefront? laughing Oh well
  51. Town Hall 12 November 2019 23: 46 New
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    I'm afraid that your knowledge in chemistry is about the same level as in archeology
  52. xax
    xax 13 November 2019 00: 13 New
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    Quote: Town Hall
    knowledge in chemistry

    Well, actually it’s more about physics (half-life, you know), geochemistry and geology, than chemistry laughing . I, unlike you, at least understand this fact. And you are chemistry))))))))
    And do not be afraid, because I did not set forth my knowledge, but the general scientific point of view.

    With all the shortcomings of the method, however, I’m sure that if you offer to finance this type of research as well, then no one will refuse it laughing

    Do you yourself understand what insanity you write? If the tablets were falsified (schizophrenia on the march), then falsifying the results of radiocarbon analysis is not a question at all.
  53. Town Hall 13 November 2019 00: 20 New
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    Quote: xax
    Well, actually it’s more about physics (half-life, you know), geochemistry and geology, than chemistry. I, unlike you, at least understand this fact. And you are chemistry))))))))

    With your extensive knowledge, you will go straight to the Nobel Committee. Explain to them, ignoramuses that have beguiled ....
    In 1949, Willard Libby developed a radiocarbon analysis and demonstrated its suitability for samples of a tree of known age (in the range of 1400–4600 years), for which he received the Nobel Prize in 1960 in chemistry
  54. xax
    xax 13 November 2019 00: 40 New
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    Quote: Town Hall
    received the nobel prize in chemistry

    You should know that in the field of geochemistry and geology, the Nobel Prize is not given laughing (sorry, when I talk to you in this thread, I can’t resist this smile)
    But in physics, this man did not discover anything new, he only used the available tools.
  55. xax
    xax 13 November 2019 00: 43 New
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    And please answer my message about the schizophrenic nature of your assumption. I’m very interested to know how you explained to yourself the fact that someone “falsified” the plates, but cannot falsify the passport for radiocarbon dating? Or didn’t you think about it? Thank.
  56. Ehanatone 13 November 2019 03: 51 New
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    "that in 1960 received the Nobel Prize in chemistry"
    Some black color has recently received an award for peace - and why peace in the world? ...
    And another spotty ...
    pancake ,...
    go on and write disgusting ...
  57. xax
    xax 12 November 2019 23: 32 New
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    Quote: Town Hall
    Nobody found 000 years ... and then how badly ... they "find" wagons

    With Troy the same nonsense. For centuries, they haven’t found anything from that kingdom, but under Schliemann - how badly! laughing
  58. Town Hall 12 November 2019 23: 44 New
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    Quote: xax
    Quote: Town Hall
    Nobody found 000 years ... and then how badly ... they "find" wagons

    With Troy the same nonsense. For centuries, they haven’t found anything from that kingdom, but under Schliemann - how badly! laughing

    You are poorly informed about archeology in general and about Troy in particular. Read at your leisure, for example, here
    https://arheologija.ru/avilova-zoloto-i-med-troi/
  59. xax
    xax 13 November 2019 00: 15 New
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    Quote: Town Hall
    You are poorly informed

    Well informed. Troy was unearthed the way you wanted - found a lot, quickly and in one place.
    So this is your argument - we throw it in a landfill. There is also?
  60. Mordvin 3 12 November 2019 23: 50 New
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    Quote: xax
    With Troy the same nonsense. For centuries, they haven’t found anything from that kingdom, but under Schliemann - how badly!

    And not so long ago they found the missing army of King Cambyses. They died peacefully in the Sahara.
  • Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 22: 29 New
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    Quote: mordvin xnumx
    this does not mean that at the time of your great-grandmother there were no letters.

    No, but my father already has a higher education. And it's not a hundred years.
    1. Mordvin 3 12 November 2019 22: 39 New
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      Quote: Trilobite Master
      No, but my father already has a higher education. And it's not a hundred years.

      So this is not a jump-jump from an oak tree. The base was already huge.
    2. Hantengri 12 November 2019 22: 58 New
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      Quote: mordvin xnumx
      It simply cannot be such that a hundred years later, like our ancestors from the tree, they began to send letters of 11-12 centuries:

      Quote: mordvin xnumx
      So this is not a jump-jump from an oak tree. The base was already huge.

      Our ancestors (Australopithecus) "from a ciganuli tree" million commercials 4 years ago. And, since then, we only did that we learned something. Those who did not know how to learn quickly died out. So, really, "The base was already huge."
  • Ehanatone 13 November 2019 03: 44 New
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    "all this is the machinations of Anglo-Saxon culture against the Russian superethnos!"
    Amen!
    1. Geo⁣ 13 November 2019 04: 49 New
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      Jokes - jokes, and a few posts above the Jewish accountant assured everyone under his "honest word" that birch bark letters were falsified (the machinations of the Slavophiles of myth-makers). He caught them, they say, on the fact that forging letters they could not fake a piece of paper with radiocarbon dating))). And the basis of his "research", undoubtedly, was the love of the "purity" of Russian history.
  • kalibr 12 November 2019 08: 29 New
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    Quote: Far In
    Something resembling the campaigns of Svyatoslav - there is a lot of glory, zero sense.

    Early feudal youth!
    1. Pane Kohanku 12 November 2019 11: 18 New
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      Early feudal youth!

      "Youth", Vyacheslav Olegovich, here in Novgorod stands on Hagia Sophia - the Magdeburg (or Sigtun) gate. The gates were squeezed by the Swedes in the 12th century, brought back from the Swedish capital across the Baltic to Novgorod, and put into our church. See what figures there are on the bas-relief! (the lattice cast a shadow) hi
  • Boris55 12 November 2019 08: 38 New
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    How much can a lie about the Tatar-Mongols be broadcast? Video from ~ 1: 53.

    1. Mcar 12 November 2019 09: 10 New
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      Quote: Boris55
      How much can a lie about the Tatar-Mongols be broadcast?

      Officials - what to take from them? For them, history is religion, and any questions are blasphemy. It’s good that they stopped burning at the bonfires. Only for how long?
      1. kalibr 12 November 2019 10: 38 New
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        Dear Alexander! Sorry to interfere. But ... remember. A few months ago here at VO there was a series of my articles on the historiography of the Mongol conquest. Our annalistic sources, Chinese, were taken, and the studies of famous historians were indicated. Even cover photos were laid out for clarity. From Solovyov to Gorelik and many others ... And now the question is, after I recommended these books, did you read at least one of them? No, I'm sure of that! Then what do you base your conclusions on? It is a big mistake to draw conclusions with incomplete knowledge, relying on the effective conclusions of those who also build them on incomplete knowledge.
        1. Mcar 12 November 2019 12: 44 New
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          Quote: kalibr
          what do you base your conclusions on?

          - the version of the so-called "Tatar-Mongol yoke" (TMI) appeared no earlier than the 18th century - three centuries after the alleged events
          - in the Russian language there are no Mongolian words, but this is impossible if there was a TMI, or the Mongols were dumb without exception
          - there are no Mongolian genes in the Russian genome, and this is impossible if there were TMIs, or the Mongols were scattered eunuchs without exception
          - practically nothing was found on the Kulikovo field, no more than on any other field, just they didn’t dig so carefully on others
          - the complete absence of legends, epics and other folklore about Genghis Khan and the Mongol conquests in Mongolia itself, among the Mongols themselves
          - modern Mongolia on development barely departed from the Stone Age, with the great efforts of the USSR
          - trophies, for 2 with a hundred years of robbery, should be like a dozen pyramids of Cheops - where is it all?
          - description of Genghis Khan's appearance “a tall warrior, with white skin and blue eyes, a thick beard and a reddish head of hair” - a typical Slav
          - the word "horde" of Russian origin, as well as the German ordnung
          - on the images of all the icons and engravings related to the fight against TMI, the warring warriors are depicted in the same way - armor, banners, faces ... but in general

          Something I broke up ... I completely forgot - for sectarians from history all this is an empty phrase. I hope not much disturbed your religious feelings?
          1. Laurus 12 November 2019 13: 31 New
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            I agree with everything, except for the lack of finds on the Kulikovo field. This just does not prove anything. Iron was expensive and especially products from it. The winners gathered everything they could to the last arrowhead. Something, of course, was missed, but to find this “something”, you need to know exactly where to look.
            As for the images on the icons and engravings, the warring parties were always depicted in the same way, just like in Europe. Artists did not spend time on scientific research and portrayed fighters exactly as the warriors of their era looked.
            1. Operator 12 November 2019 13: 41 New
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              Archeological breeders still dig at the mouth of the Nepryadva River, but they must dig at its source (the source of the river was called the mouth of the 17 century). In the area of ​​the source of Nepredva, the local museum of local lore presents a rich set of artifacts of the Battle of Kulikovo.
          2. karabass 12 November 2019 13: 40 New
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            You dear sovramshi In Russian, 1500 Mongolian words! GOD is a Mongolian word! the rest of the nonsense is even disgusting to answer!
            1. Operator 12 November 2019 13: 52 New
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              Bulgarian bogomils have been known in Europe since the 10 century, and the Mongols since the 13 century.
            2. Mcar 12 November 2019 13: 58 New
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              Quote: karabass
              You dear sovramshi In Russian, 1500 Mongolian words!

              Another Russophobe sought out, however, here you are darkness, as I look.

              But the simple thought that the Mongols borrowed 1500 words from us does not occur to us?
            3. Geo⁣ 13 November 2019 01: 38 New
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              Quote: karabass
              There are 1500 Mongolian words in Russian

              Indicate the source, or did you calculate it yourself?

              Quote: karabass
              GOD is a Mongolian word!

              Source, please. And then I found only this:
              The Russian word "god" (<* bogъ) has a Slavic origin and is related to the Iranian baga and Sanskrit bhagas - "bearer". On the other hand, it is closely connected with a rather ancient derivative vocabulary that reveals the initial meaning of “wealth” - * bogatъ, * ubogъ, and through it - with Indo-European vocabulary, which means share, share, receive share, endow [29]. The opinion on the borrowing of the Slavic word from the Iranian languages ​​is not universally recognized. In particular, Max Fasmer did not consider the borrowing hypothesis convincing [30


              And there is nothing about the Mongolian
              1. karabass 13 November 2019 21: 02 New
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                1500 counted philologists of these works a lot yourself find
                The word GOD before the Mongols in Russia was not accepted; his name was Lord, Allo, etc. The Mongols brought it (the word) to Russia - "hero, bogdo, etc. You will not find a source here. Only indirect Only - Afanasy Nikitin in your manuscript God calls Allo. I repeat the Mongols did not have a written language
                1. Geo⁣ 14 November 2019 09: 55 New
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                  Quote: karabass
                  find yourself

                  It’s not me who invented this figure, and it’s not for me to swell. Either the source - or we expect repentance from you.

                  Quote: karabass
                  The word GOD before the Mongols in Russia was not .... You will not find a source here.

                  Then I’m embarrassed to ask - where did you get this from? You are a couple of thousand years old, not otherwise.
                  1. karabass 14 November 2019 12: 13 New
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                    Yes, I say to the Mongols the word God in chronicles and others that have not been preserved in historical documents, his name is in Russia in another way. Once again I say - BOGDO, Bogatyr God - from the Mongols. Regarding 1500 it was established by philologists: - guard, coachman, doctor , cart, kennel, push, hero, god, food, executioner, barge hauler, thing - THESE ARE BORROWINGS FROM MONGOLIAN and many others, the Mongolian cat is MURKA! If you are interested in finding all 1500 words, look for yourself!
                    1. Geo⁣ 15 November 2019 06: 08 New
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                      It’s plain lying, then? Oh well
                      1. karabass 15 November 2019 14: 20 New
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                        Yes, as you wish - do not want to believe in the Mongols do not believe your right
                        yes, there was no Tatar-Mongol yoke, we are all Russian, and Alexander Nevsky is Batu! Do you feel better?
                      2. Geo⁣ 15 November 2019 21: 02 New
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                        Quote: karabass
                        don't want to believe

                        Probably, everything was somehow like that.
                        You walk like this along the street, you don’t touch anyone. Suddenly, from the window of the basement a weak voice shouted to you some type with red, but burning, eyes and long, unwashed for a month hair:
                        - Hey man!
                        - What is needed? - you stopped.
                        - Hey, man! Man, we are philologists! And we found out (yes, yes - finally found out!) That there are exactly 1500 Mongolian words in the Russian language!
                        - Eka zagogulina, it turns out! - you were taken aback.
                        - Do you hear that ?! This is a sensation! Go and tell people about it! People must know, man!
                        “And you yourself?” Why are you ...?
                        - We have devoted all our efforts to solving this problem. I am the last who has not yet fallen off her feet. But I'm too weak ...
                        He said the last words with difficulty. Then his hands, until now holding on to the edge of the semi-basement, were unclenched - and he fell down without strength into his last refuge, to his heroic comrades.

                        And now you carry this word of truth to people! And unbelievers, like me, still dare to doubt the knowledge that someone has got so dearly, and now they simply give me free knowledge!

                        laughing
                      3. The comment was deleted.
      2. Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 15: 10 New
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        Quote: McAr
        Something I broke up

        Yes, something your lately parted altogether. In what psychiatric hospital was the amnesty?
        Quote: McAr
        the version of the so-called "Tatar-Mongol yoke" (TMI) appeared no earlier than the 18 century - three centuries after the alleged events

        The oldest chronicle dated by the physical method is the XIV century. Textologically - XII century.
        Quote: McAr
        there are no Mongolian words in the Russian language, and this is impossible if there was a TMI, or the Mongols were dumb

        To hell. Type in the search for "Mongolian borrowings in Russian" and enjoy
        Quote: McAr
        there are no Mongolian genes in the Russian genome, and this is impossible if there were TMIs, or the Mongols were scattered eunuchs without exception

        Yesterday and today we discussed this topic in a previous article by Valery. I quote from there:
        The absence of the Mongolian genetic trace in Russia is explained by:
        1. A small presence in Russia during the invasion of carriers of the Mongolian genes proper.
        2. The miserable probability of conceiving a child during a raid due to:
        - Permanent pregnancy of the vast majority of women of reproductive age
        - The presence of more important things for raiders to provide troops with forage and trophies - the main goal of a military campaign
        - The custom of the Mongols to kill raped captives in order to exclude the possibility of their offspring from conquerors.
        3. The lack of permanent Mongolian military contingents in Russia.

        Quote: McAr
        practically nothing was found on the Kulikovo field, no more than on any other field, just they didn’t dig so carefully on others

        Oleg Dvurechensky to help you.
        Quote: McAr
        the complete absence of legends, epics and other folklore about Genghis Khan and the Mongol conquests in Mongolia itself, among the Mongols themselves

        There is both. But the Russians have something epic about Alexander Nevsky somehow not very.
        Quote: McAr
        modern Mongolia on development barely departed from the Stone Age, with the great efforts of the USSR

        Nonsense. The Mongols got stuck in the 18th century, maybe a little earlier. But this is a completely different story.
        Quote: McAr
        trophies, for 2 with the hook of a century of robberies, should be like a dozen pyramids of Cheops - where is it all

        In museums. Take an interest.
        Quote: McAr
        Genghis Khan's description of the appearance "a tall warrior, with white skin and blue eyes, a thick beard and reddish hair" - a typical Slav

        And who described it to you like that? Well, bolder! ..
        Quote: McAr
        the word "horde" of Russian origin, as well as the German ordnung

        It has the opposite meaning. laughing
        Quote: McAr
        in the images of all the icons and engravings related to the fight against TMI, the warring warriors are depicted in the same way - armor, banners, faces ... but in general

        Icons and engravings created three hundred years later and dedicated to events about which the authors of these works did not have the slightest idea. There was an excellent series of articles on portraying biblical subjects in medieval miniature. Read.
        wassat
        How much can you repeat the same thing? Has your guru invented anything new?
        1. Geo⁣ 13 November 2019 01: 51 New
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          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Mongolian borrowings in Russian

          Something mostly Turkic roots stick out. Or am I not understanding something?
      3. rich 12 November 2019 20: 13 New
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        McAr (Alexander): - in the Russian language there are no Mongolian words, but this is impossible if there was a TMI, or the Mongols were dumb without exception

        You're wrong
        the Mongols called their weapons "mes", and the inhabitants of Ancient Rus decided to remake them somewhat in their own way. Thus the word "sword" was born, which has been used successfully for many centuries. The traditional designation of a courageous warrior, “hero”, also came from the Mongol dialect. They called their great husbands Bagatur or Baatar.

        The Mongols left their language mark in medicine. For example, a chiropractor, a medicine man, was called a “bariac” by warriors. The word was liked by the local population, and today it sounds like a "doctor", denoting the most noble human profession. After the appearance of the Mongols of the Golden Horde in Russia, people began to call some other animals differently. So, the cat began to affectionately click “Murka” (from the Mongolian “Muur”), and the cow herd was headed by the “bull” (derived from “bukh”).

        The list of borrowed words also included: God, louse, letters, bomb, barge hauler, pack, guard, executioner, stiffen, food, outback, etc. Learning a language does not cause difficulties, because so many words and adverbs are already familiar to Russian people.

        Haruul = guard (guard, protective guard in Russian)

        Zasuul = Yesaul in Russian

        honuur = kennel (dog house - dog kennel)

        tүlheh = push

        terag = cart

        idee = food

        scourges, scourges = write (write)

        bөөs = louse

        balmad = balamut (reckless)

        bargle = burlak (servant, farm laborer)

        alaach = executioner
        1. Mcar 13 November 2019 02: 41 New
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          Quote: Rich
          McAr (Alexander): - in the Russian language there are no Mongolian words, but this is impossible if there was a TMI, or the Mongols were dumb without exception

          You're wrong
          the Mongols called their weapons "mes", and the inhabitants of Ancient Rus decided to remake them somewhat in their own way. Thus the word "sword" was born, which has been used successfully for many centuries. The traditional designation of a courageous warrior, “hero”, also came from the Mongol dialect. They called their great husbands Bagatur or Baatar.

          The Mongols left their language mark in medicine. For example, a chiropractor, a medicine man, was called a “bariac” by warriors. The word was liked by the local population, and today it sounds like a "doctor", denoting the most noble human profession. After the appearance of the Mongols of the Golden Horde in Russia, people began to call some other animals differently. So, the cat began to affectionately click “Murka” (from the Mongolian “Muur”), and the cow herd was headed by the “bull” (derived from “bukh”).

          The list of borrowed words also included: God, louse, letters, bomb, barge hauler, pack, guard, executioner, stiffen, food, outback, etc. Learning a language does not cause difficulties, because so many words and adverbs are already familiar to Russian people.

          Haruul = guard (guard, protective guard in Russian)

          Zasuul = Yesaul in Russian

          honuur = kennel (dog house - dog kennel)

          tүlheh = push

          terag = cart

          idee = food

          scourges, scourges = write (write)

          bөөs = louse

          balmad = balamut (reckless)

          bargle = burlak (servant, farm laborer)

          alaach = executioner

          Can you use the keyboard shortcuts Ctrl + C, Ctrl + V? How progressive you are!

          The same question as the previous hate: Why doesn’t it all come to your mind that they borrowed these words from us? Where does such a willingness to accept all nonsense come from, from Norman, Mongolian and other theories to the total inability of the Russians to even own their own language? If a neighbor declares his rights to your wife, on the grounds that he slept with her, will you also agree?

          If some Mongols gave us 1,5 words, the existence of which half the world does not even suspect, then European nations gave us exactly 20 thousand, no less. In sum - Pushkin’s active vocabulary. I still strongly offended the Jews - they will not agree with us for less than 5 thousand words given to us, they like to make gifts. Arrived! What about ours? Interjection - oh, oh, wow? .. So similar sounds and monkeys reproduce.

          So, we borrowed FOOD, but did we ourselves composed?
          SUSPEND borrowed, and composed the EROG?
          Dog booth, say? Doghouse from the hole.
          Outback - and what, right like that, along with the prefix ZA-? Maybe they borrowed it? And what is only one, maybe all the consoles are not ours? Of course, we don’t know the words Khalug and Khlud, but have already agreed to our own inferiority, right?
          Stiffen from koch (bump) - lose the ability to move.
          Bull from a beech (bug). A bee from the same source.
          “Bariac,” say, did the population like it? And what? Maybe sweet or flavor like Chanel?
          The doctor from lying is the one who speaks, the caster, the sorcerer (healers, enemies).
          1. karabass 14 November 2019 12: 28 New
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            But experts, certified philologists, professors and doctors of sciences claim this - are they all your fools? And of you, probably Genius is rushing, right?
            1. Mcar 14 November 2019 14: 43 New
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              Quote: karabass
              But specialists, certified philologists, professors and doctors of sciences claim this

              They claim rather you live.

              This position reminds me of: Shaw? General said? Well, actually a crocodile flies, only low-low.

              If we are talking about the language, then the question is: Do you know that normal etymological dictionaries do not exist? And what is is flawed to horror, and only sometimes, in some places, in some% true.

              Here is an exercise for your mind, can you find the Russian etymological basis (s) (not the root - basis) in these words: progress, sandwich, tourist, quiver, Wehrmacht, butterfly stroke?
              If you can, take off my hat.
  • 3x3zsave 12 November 2019 20: 13 New
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    No! Not for long, do not even hope! Dominican brothers will come for you! Sanctum Oflcium is not asleep !!! am
  • Hantengri 12 November 2019 09: 33 New
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    Quote: Boris55

    How much can a lie about the Tatar-Mongols be broadcast? Video from ~ 1: 53.

    Counter-question: How does the absence of Mughal genes prove that Russia did not fall into vassal dependence on the Horde?
    You, apparently, imagine the yoke in only one way:
    The Mongol-fascist invaders came to Russia visibly and invisibly. They set up a commandant’s circle. Housed in each city, at least in the army corps, and in each village of 3 houses, at least in the company of the Mongolian Wehrmacht, for order, and 2 companies of the Mongolian SS, to fight the partisans. And let's rummage around, brandishing their Mngol MP40s, constantly screaming: "Uterus, trigger, egg, schnapps, sekas!" and pouring your genetic material into everything that moves. And so 300 years.
    To consider other options, alternatively gifted, probably, does not allow religion.
    1. Boris55 12 November 2019 11: 22 New
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      Quote: HanTengri
      How does the absence of Mughal genes prove that Russia did not fall into vassal dependence on the Horde?

      Have you watched a video just before the "genes"? laughing I have a question for you. Why do you certainly believe Miller, who composed our story?

      Who and why spoke about the Tatar-Mongol yoke. Alexander Pyzhikov:

      1. Hantengri 12 November 2019 12: 06 New
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        Quote: Boris55
        Have you watched a video just before the "genes"?

        As you recommended. hi
        Quote: Boris55
        I have a question for you. Why do you certainly believe Miller, who composed our story?

        For questions of faith, you should contact the church. And while still in the process of obtaining a natural science education, I was taught to use one, very nasty thing, called: "Scientific Method". With what I recommend you to get acquainted, at least as a first approximation.
        Quote: Boris55
        What nefarious dirty tricks doesn’t wander in Russian antiquities such a cattle admitted to them

        When Lomonosov’s friend - Richman, with his vile German brain, spoiled Russian Physics (praise be to Allah, the patriotic Russian ball lightning prevented this disgrace) Mikhailo Vasilievich, for some reason did not show such vigilance and consciousness ... It was ...
        1. Boris55 12 November 2019 13: 20 New
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          Quote: HanTengri
          "Scientific method"

          Your “scientific method” is based on a history that is protected by non-march. I hope it’s not a secret for you that under Peter all the available written sources were collected supposedly for inventory and after that no one saw them ...
          Initially false data lead to a false result.

          Quote: HanTengri
          When Lomonosov’s friend - Richman, with his vile German brain, spoiled Russian Physics, Mikhailo Vasilievich, for some reason didn’t show such vigilance and consciousness ... Stanno ...

          History and physics are completely different. Stopping physical experiments at the dawn of its formation and distorting history is not the same thing.
          1. Hantengri 12 November 2019 13: 39 New
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            Quote: Boris55
            I hope it’s not a secret for you that under Peter all the available written sources were collected supposedly for inventory and after that no one saw them ...

            According to the scientific method, you must first prove this statement incontrovertibly. Proceed. laughing
    2. knn54 12 November 2019 21: 35 New
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      And why not consider other options:
      BATUKHAN (Batuhan) - Vatican.
      Golden Horde-Golden Order.
      Etc.
      Kotyan with 40000 troops leaves for Hungary, marries the royal two other daughters. And accepts Catholicism.
  • Laurus 12 November 2019 12: 15 New
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    Even though someone makes fun of the Mongol tales, that's good. The Golden Horde cities still stand - Kazan, Astrakhan, Bakhchisarai in the Crimea. Well, what is Mongolian then? The Mongols allegedly stoned all of Eurasia, but there is no cultural heritage - neither Mongolian in Eurasia, nor Eurasian in Mongolia.
    As for Chinese sources, then believe them ... There, when the dynasty changed, all annals and books were destroyed, after which they were written again, with the necessary new dynasty filling.
    1. karabass 14 November 2019 12: 25 New
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      And the Turkic word "MANGYT" you did not know? The Mangity people ruled the territory of Kazakhstan of Kyrgyzstan, Karakalpakstan until the middle of the 17th century (the highest zhuz at that time) In the Golden Horde, the nobility and the aristocracy were Mongols, do you also know the word Genghisid? Simply, the Mongols were so few in comparison with the rest of the steppe rabble (har yast) that after only 4 generations they switched to the Kipchak language of the Polovtsy subjugated by them
  • Olgovich 12 November 2019 09: 09 New
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    And the Russian princes decided: "It is better for us to accept them (the Mongols) on a foreign land than on our own."

    Such a simple and clear scheme where everything is logical and there is no desire to ask additional questions - and, at the same time, absolutely wrong.

    Absolutely trueas History has shown: the Mongols went to the North in real history and there was not the slightest chance to avoid it.

    And it was absolutely logical to try to stop them BEFORE their lands and With allies.

    1812, 1914.1940 and 1941 it is clearly. once again, showed.
    1. Cartalon 12 November 2019 09: 56 New
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      And it would be even better to pick up the Polovtsy under your own hand and make them a border army for mobile defense on the line of fortifications. True, this would be as impossible as an offensive war in the steppe.
      1. Engineer 12 November 2019 10: 26 New
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        Already done so. Only with Torquay and Berendey. By the time of the Mongol invasion, the Polovtsy turned into a kind of peculiar neighbors, "matchmakers." Kotyan was the father-in-law of Mstislav Udatny. After Monomakh, the Polovtsy attacked mainly by invitation.
        Moreover, a year before Kalki, the Seljuks invaded Crimea. Guess what the Russians did? They came to the rescue of the Polovtsy there. And also unsuccessfully.
  • Operator 12 November 2019 10: 17 New
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    As always, they deliver “reconstruction” of Gorelik, on which either the Mongols crowded to dwarfs, or the Mongolian horses grew up to the Oryol trotters laughing

    Comrades Jews, the legs of a mounted Mongol practically dragged along the ground, if they were not pulled up, of course. But for a Mongol in full armor and any armor from a quilted dressing gown and a leather vest, pulling up legs in battle was tantamount to surrender.
    1. Engineer 12 November 2019 11: 02 New
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      You don’t mistake a horse and a donkey?
      1. Operator 12 November 2019 11: 17 New
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        You confuse horse racing with cavalry combat and the modern Mongolian horse with its ancestor of the 13 century the size of a European donkey.
        1. Engineer 12 November 2019 11: 22 New
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          Lord, well, go to Wikipedia at least. Read "remained mostly unchanged." And pay attention to where the stirrups are in the picture attached to the article.
          1. Operator 12 November 2019 11: 30 New
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            The keyword is "mostly" laughing
            1. Operator 12 November 2019 14: 55 New
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              Mongolian horse in its original form

  • Operator 12 November 2019 10: 21 New
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    Quote: kalibr
    beat our ancestors

    In Canaan? laughing
  • sivuch 12 November 2019 10: 36 New
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    There are some doubts about the terrible defeat from the Bulgars. Let me quote myself beloved to make it clear. Actually, once I wrote about this defeat myself and this is what they answered me -
    http://imtw.ru/topic/50079-dzhelal-ad-din-mankburni/page__st__20
    There is only one story of the Arab historian Ibn al-Asir, who was two thousand km from the place of probable events and recorded it according to some rumors of unknown origin ("as they say" ©). And in other medieval sources, either there is nothing, or the opposite is stated. In any case, the results of the campaign and further events and facts do not allow us to talk about some kind of defeat of the Mongols in Bulgaria, colorfully painted in a modern fairy tale called "Jagfar Tarihi
    - But here are sources that would confirm the opposite, i.e. I won’t find the victory of Subudai and Jebe over the Bulgars.
    - And what, it was supposed to be? If almost all sources are silent, then there was probably no significant battle with the Bulgars.
    I am sure that the Mongols did not plan to defeat Bulgaria in 1224, since such a goal was not set, and there was no strength for it. I admit that some advanced detachment could advance to its borders for the purpose of reconnaissance and possible negotiations, but nothing more. It is possible that this intelligence raked off the intractable Bulgars, which gave rise to rumors that reached Ibn al-Asir. What is more important here is that the sub-Jedi and Jebe corps safely returned and connected with Genghis Khan, bringing with them military trophies and rich gifts. And "Yuan-shi" reports that along the way they defeated the Kangles who roamed from the Urals to the Aral, and this happened after a likely collision with the Bulgars. And somewhere Subaedey, somewhere else from the Urals or from the Aral region, sent Genghis Khan a request for the formation of a separate corps from the conquered peoples, to which he received consent. Therefore, the “defeat by the Bulgars” somehow does not at all fit with these events.
    1. Engineer 12 November 2019 10: 51 New
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      Good comment
    2. karabass 12 November 2019 16: 24 New
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      all this is possible, because the Mongols didn’t have a written record of historical documents written by others. Echoes of the epos that characterize the Mongols of Genghis Khan, for example, were preserved for example: during the siege of one city, the Mongols ate each other by lot, killing one of a dozen (probably more than once) So did the Mongols verbally conveyed admiration for the valor of enemies - for example, the inhabitants of the city besieged by the Mongols, when they no longer had strength, buried all the gold and silver, killed their women and children themselves, so that the enemy would not have got it, set fire to the city and went to m ongol in the last battle
  • Alexey-74 12 November 2019 10: 36 New
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    The article is interesting of course, but we won’t find out the truth, as it really was, and the reasons for the defeat of the Russian army on Kalka are also very arbitrary. Schematically represent the cowardice of the Polovtsians confusion in the management of Russian troops. But I do not think that at that time the Russian princes did not understand what they were doing. But if in the battle of Kalka the victory was for the Russians, then history may have turned out differently.
  • kalibr 12 November 2019 10: 40 New
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    Quote: HanTengri
    How does the absence of Mughal genes prove that Russia did not fall into vassal dependence on the Horde?

    Don’t you, Igor, know that the main thing in the war is ... continuous artificial insemination! For the sake of just this, everyone is at war!
    1. Laurus 12 November 2019 12: 17 New
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      The procedure you mentioned is an indispensable part of any victory. Wars were fought not for ideas, but for a completely ordinary robbery, accompanied not only by killings, but also by rape. If the mythical Mongols passed through Russia, then the genetic trace could not remain.
      1. Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 16: 18 New
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        Quote: Laurel
        If the mythical Mongols passed through Russia, then the genetic trace could not but remain

        The genetic trace could only remain if the Mongols themselves remained and lived among the Russian women in commercial quantities. I somehow hardly imagine a Russian woman who is able to give birth, but for some reason, instead of getting pregnant from her husband, waiting for the Mongol. And sometimes they had to wait ten or twenty years from raid to raid.
  • romb 12 November 2019 11: 35 New
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    The steppe history seems to believe that Batu and Zhosha fought against the Kipchaks (Polovtsy). And the Russians, so-so, in fact, are the forced vassality of the Desht-I-Kipchak Khanate. So, the Mongols of the Kipchak allies in the person of the Russian princes did not consider them a worthy rival. As further events proved. For example, the Horde had been at war with the Kipchaks for more than two decades, while the Russian princes, in the vast majority, swore almost the first “run over”.
  • Semurg 12 November 2019 13: 08 New
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    In Kazakhstan, they are going to celebrate the 750 year old Golden Horde.
    1. VLR
      VLR 12 November 2019 13: 26 New
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      And this is a monument to Genghis Khan in the village of Privolny in the Yashkul region of Kalmykia.


      And even funnier - Album for the anniversary of S. Shoigu "Do your job." Installation of Shoigu and Subedey:
      1. Catfish 12 November 2019 16: 35 New
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        Damn, my mother is one, well, a nightmare !!! wassat
      2. Korsar4 12 November 2019 21: 20 New
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        It's just a piggy bank of masterpieces.

        I can’t forget the picture in the school biological work from Chechnya when Putin and both Kadyrovs held the globe of the Earth.

        This image also fits into the semantic line.
    2. romb 12 November 2019 13: 45 New
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      Now a joint Kazakh-Mongolian group of historians and officials are coordinating the "procedures" for the celebration. It is interesting that the Mongols (more precisely, those from modern Mongolia), so to speak, are offended by the Kazakhs, accusing them of a kind of "mankurtism." wink Lost - they say - their roots and common history.
      1. Semurg 12 November 2019 13: 54 New
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        Tipo Kazakhs are Turkized Mongols? laughing . Or maybe it’s true, for example, I’m from the kind of konyrat (konrat, kungrat, hungrat, hungirat, etc.) from which the mother and wife of Genghis Khan come from.
        1. romb 12 November 2019 14: 01 New
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          It is precisely that the Kazakhs are the "hodgepodge". For example, starting from the moment of the collapse of the Horde and the phased emergence of the Kazakh Khanate, various tribal groups joined the indicated state, which previously belonged to different, and often hostile, "states". Formed or lived in the territories of the Timurids, Mamlakat-i-Mogolistan, Oiratov, the Siberian Khanate, etc.
          1. Operator 12 November 2019 14: 34 New
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            It’s absolutely true that the Mongols, the carriers of the haplogroup С2 as part of the Kazakhs, account for slightly more than a third, in second place are the carriers of the so-called Caucasian G (immigrants from the Pamirs), O carriers are Chinese in third place, R1b carriers in fourth place are Sarmatians, R1a carriers in fifth place are Scythians

  • kalibr 12 November 2019 13: 39 New
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    Quote: Laurel
    If the mythical Mongols passed through Russia, then the genetic trace could not remain.

    Through it, and the Vikings went to the Greeks ... but there is no trace.
    1. Laurus 12 November 2019 13: 52 New
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      By the Greeks you probably understand the Byzantines and I don’t know who you call the Vikings. But I don’t remember something, so that those who are remembered, whoever they are, conquer all of Russia and establish the yoke for centuries.
      And you should know that there are no Russian, Mongolian or Tatar genes, there are genes to a greater or lesser extent characteristic of certain populations. And there is a gene pool of individual nations as a collection of genes in a certain territory. So, the population that lives on the territory of Russia has nothing to do with the population that lives on the territory of Mongolia.
    2. Operator 12 November 2019 14: 47 New
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      Quote: kalibr
      Through it, and the Vikings went to the Greeks ... but there is no trace

      Another thing is strange: Jews have passed through Russia since the partition of Poland - and there are less and less tracks every year laughing
      1. Catfish 12 November 2019 16: 39 New
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        Actor Mironov: dad Menaker, mother of Mironov. And how many more ... and not counted. request
        1. Operator 12 November 2019 18: 30 New
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          And the grandchildren of Menaker / Mironova in Israel - as required laughing
  • kalibr 12 November 2019 13: 43 New
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    Quote: McAr
    I hope not much disturbed your religious feelings?

    No, but I found out the main thing. You have not read the books that I recommended. Hence all your rampant and voluminous verbal diarrhea. It would be better to read, and only then ...
  • Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 13: 52 New
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    Valery, let's take creativity responsibly.
    You should understand that for many readers of VO you are not so much the author of entertaining fiction as a source of information that "sinks" into your head and remains there in the rank of "verified and reliable information."
    Jochi.
    It is known that his mother Borte was captured by the Merkits. It is known that she gave birth to her first child on the road from captivity. It is known that once Chagatai (the second son of Temuzhin) called in the presence of his elder brother's father "the heir to the Merkit captivity." And this is all (I emphasize!) The information available to us, which allows us to deny the paternity of Genghis Khan regarding Jochi.
    But besides this, there is a mass of data indicating the opposite. So, for example, Rashid ad-Din writes:
    In the very first years of the acts of Genghis Khan, when the traces of his world power had not yet appeared on the pages of the sheets of his era, his wife, mentioned by Borte-fujin, became pregnant with Jochi Khan. At such a time the clan merkit, taking the opportunity, plundered Genghis Khan's dwelling and took away [in full] his wife, who was pregnant. Although this tribe had been at war and argued with Ong Khan before, the sovereign of the [tribe] Kerait, but at that time there was peace between them, so they sent Borte-fujin to Ong Khan. Since the latter with his father were Genghis Khan and Genghis Khan [Ong Khan] called his son, he respected and respected Borte-fujin, kept her in the position of a young daughter-in-law and protected from prying eyes. Since she was very beautiful and capable, the emirs of Ong Khan said among themselves: “Why does Ong Khan not take [himself] Borte-fujin?” He replied: “She is in the position of my son’s young wife and is safe with us ; ignoble to look at her with insidious intentions. " When Genghis Khan found out about this circumstance, he sent to Ong Khan with a request to return Borte-Fujin of an emir named Saba, from among the wag-uds of the Jelair kind ... Ong Khan, giving her attention and care, sent her along with Saba. On the way, a son was suddenly born, for this reason he was named Jochi.

    I also note that he paid for his statement regarding Juchi - Genghis Khan denied him the right to inherit the title of Great Khan. After the death of Genghis Khan (given that Jochi died earlier), this title was succeeded by Ogedei - the third son. At the same time, the descendants of Jochi from the number of applicants for the role of the Great Khan were not excluded.
    The assumption that Genghis Khan did not know how to calculate the gestational age for women and could mistake Juchi for his son seems to me not too solid. He knew (unlike us) how much time Borte spent in captivity with the Merkits. And he was not the only one, even if he wanted to deceive everyone (why on earth?) He would not succeed.
    Before his death, Jochi complained for a long time about the disease. It is likely that you believed that he was not killed by his father, but died precisely from an illness, on his gravestone he should have written something like "I told you I was sick."
    Jaebe.
    There are several options for his death or death, and one of them is the Battle of Kalka, namely the first skirmish with the Russians a week before the main battle. In addition, he may be mentioned in The Secret History under 1230. In any case, the death in battle of such a significant character should have been reflected in the chronicles, which we do not have. Given his advanced age, it is more logical to assume that he died his death on a campaign.
    Next.
    Talking about the “incorrectness” of the decision of the Russian princes to come to the aid of the Polovtsians, why aren’t you talking about the fact that not only Mstislav Udatny was a relative of the Polovtsian khan, but almost all the Russian princes were to some extent related to them and that some of them were Polovtsian relatives, moreover, the Orthodox (!) by that time had already perished at the hands of the Mongols? I mean Daniil Kobyakovich and Yuri Konchakovich. Why don’t you mention that the union treaty with the Polovtsians was sealed by the baptism of the great Polovtsian khan Basta? What prospects in the development of relations between Russia and the Steppe was opened by such an event, I think, you should understand. In this form, the joint appearance of the Russians and Polovtsy against strangers who arrived from anywhere seems not only reasonable, but also a very far-sighted step. In addition, why was Mstislav so wrong when speaking about the danger of the defeat of the Polovtsy from the Mongols for Russia? Further events showed just that he was one hundred percent right. Do not forget that the first blow from the Mongol Empire in 1237 - 38. It was precisely the Vladimir-Suzdal land that did not take part in the battle on Kalka, so the arguments that the Russians “first started” and with their thoughtless participation in the conflict on the side of the Polovtsy did not provoke the Mongols to revenge seem so serious.
    On the killing of ambassadors.
    there was no need to kill the Mongolian ambassadors, among whom was also one of the two sons of Subedai (Chambek)

    For the first time I hear about the son of Subeday named Chambek (a Muslim name, by the way, could this be the case with the son of Subeday?), And, in any case, for the first time I hear that the Russian embassy, ​​which was interrupted by Russians, consisted of anything significant in the feudal world persons. It is believed that they were "brodniks", that is, bandits, robbers. As such, they were dealt with. By the way, the second embassy, ​​probably more representative, the Russians listened and released. And then during the first skirmish, which ended successfully for the Russians, a certain Gemyabeg (also a Muslim name) was taken prisoner and sent to death by the Polovtsy. Perhaps he carried out intermediary functions between the Mongols and the Russians, who until now had not known each other and could not communicate directly.
    In short, much more can be written in terms of criticism in detail ...
    For example:
    On a campaign against the Mongols, the squads of the following principalities: Kiev, Chernigov, Smolensky, Galitsky-Volynsky, Kursky, Putivl and Trubchevsky.

    Kursk, Putivl and Trubchevsk - the inheritance of the Principality of Chernihiv
    the example is vivid proof of the moral degradation of the Russian princes, which will peak at the time of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, his sons and grandchildren

    Previously, you didn’t allow yourself such explicit sketches. Should I start talking about your degradation as an author? Talking, I think, is not worth it yet, but it’s already possible to think. Please try to at least justify this your attack, so that I lose the feeling of "Samsonism."
  • Sertorius 12 November 2019 14: 12 New
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    To the author - respect. Commentators (adequate) - a failure for the next clinch with the newcomers. Instead of a futile discussion with the tendency of Fomenkovism, it would be better to discuss with each other - it’s more interesting to read. To the author - continued!
    1. Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 16: 31 New
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      Quote: Sertorius
      unsuccessful for another clinch with the novokhronolozhets

      You can’t give them free will. They will breed and turn the section into a new garbage dump. Across the country, amber will be smashed.
      I myself personally do not try to convince them of anything - the Fomenko of the brain is incurable. I simply contrast my vision so that any reader can choose what he likes best. Well, dunk them in a puddle, if possible ... laughing
  • SKIF555 12 November 2019 15: 38 New
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    If in Mikuduk they began to call dumps from mines of the Soviet period this is Alatau .... apparently, Alexander the Great was born to the Macedonians again
  • colotun 12 November 2019 15: 48 New
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    The fourth century AD - Attila conquers Western Europe. Atilla's banners depict an equilateral cross and a golden double-headed eagle.
    The twelfth century AD - Genghis Khan and Batu conquer Western Europe.
    The historical emblem of the Golden Horde is a golden double-headed eagle (only without three crowns). Also, the golden double-headed eagle is the family coat of arms of Genghis Khan.
    The Russian Empire was created from the East, and not from the West.
    What did the specific Russian princes do during the period of feudal fragmentation in Russia (11-12 centuries)?
    They slaughtered each other in the struggle for power, ruthlessly ruining the neighboring lands and Russian cities.
    When the Mongol-Tatars united them, they forbade them to fight with each other, told them: - "You are now one country, one people." And after several generations, Russian people in Central Russia ceased to regard their neighbors as enemies.
    In Ivan the Terrible, the blood of the Rurikovich and the khans of the Golden Horde (through his mother, Elena Glinskaya) was combined, and this explosive incendiary mixture splashed out in the form of a passionary union of the three pillars of Russian statehood - the union of Slavs, Turks and Finno-Ugrians = the Moscow, Vladimir, Suzdal principalities were united , Novgorod and the Golden Horde = Great Empire revived in a new guise again.
    Orthodox prayer ends with the word AMEN, Catholic prayer ends with the word OMEN, Muslim prayer ends with the word EMEN. Also known is the Indian Buddhist mantra OM-MAN.
    And there is the Turkic word AMAN = have mercy and mercy. And these are not the only traces of the Turkic origin of the Christian faith (reference to Academician Oparin).
    And there was also a great medieval empire that conquered including China (QIN dynasty = Golden Dynasty) and India (Great Mughals).
    It is interesting that on the territory of our country of Russia, approximately within the borders of the former Soviet Union, there were five empires: - the first empire was at Attila (4-5 century AD), the second empire was at Genghis Khan (11-12 century AD) , the third empire is the Romanovs, the fourth empire is the Soviet Union and the fifth empire is the Russian Federation now.
    The Russian nation came from the merger of three different nations - Slavs, Turks (including Tatars) and Finno-Ugrians.
    And for one and a half thousand years on the territory of our great united country people of different nationalities live, as one people.
    1. Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 16: 43 New
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      Why repeat what has already been published, more recently?
      And by the way, Glinskaya was not a descendant of the khan. Mamai was from the Kyat family, he was not a Genghisid and, accordingly, could not be a khan.
      1. Arbagast 13 November 2019 20: 23 New
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        Quote: Trilobite Master
        Mamai was from the Kyat family, he was not a Genghisid and, accordingly, could not be a khan.
        Mom wasn’t from Kytays request , or maybe quinovine recourse as for kyyats, so Genghis Khan was just a kiyat-borjigin .. repeat
        1. Trilobite Master 13 November 2019 21: 21 New
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          Quote: ArbagaSt
          Genghis Khan, was just a kiyat

          I did not go into the genealogy of Mamai purely, perhaps he had a common ancestor with Genghis Khan, I admit. But I definitely read somewhere, now I don’t remember that one of the ancestors of Mamai died in the war with Genghis Khan and their clans were at enmity. Genghis Khan was definitely not the ancestor of Mamaia.
          1. karabass 18 November 2019 21: 36 New
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            Perhaps you were mistaken - KTAY is a slave, it is unlikely that a slave would have achieved such greatness Regarding the fact that Mamai was not Chingizid - it is known for certain - he did not and could not have a COMMON ancestor with CHINGHIZ KHAN! Mom, Kukuy is a 100% KIPCHAK, that's why he was not KHAN
            1. Trilobite Master 18 November 2019 21: 46 New
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              We are talking specifically about Kyat - as far as I remember, this is one of the Mongol tribes proper, who participated in the Kurultai, which elected Temujin Genghis Khan. I can not say anything about the origin of the tribe, I was not interested.
    2. Elturisto 12 November 2019 19: 03 New
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      You definitely need to see a doctor. No Turkic nation exists and did not exist. Language linguistic yes was. The same can be said about the Slavs - already from the 8th century, it was more like a linguistic community.
      The USSR never was and could not be an empire.
  • BAI
    BAI 12 November 2019 17: 34 New
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    the death of about 8 thousand Russian soldiers.

    There were no soldiers then. This word appeared only in 1250, and it was very far from Kalki in Western Europe.
  • Elturisto 12 November 2019 18: 55 New
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    Again a long and worthless article. What could a feudal gang, consisting of finished scoundrels and cowards, be opposed to the Mongol army? To kill ambassadors, to abandon their wars is a common practice of feudal lords around the world. The French also beaten their infantrymen under Kressi. And if you recall which monstrous crimes were committed by feudal lords against the peasants, then the carcasses are light. Trukhsesy (the peasant war in Gkrmania), Carla the wicked (Jacquerie), Richard the 2-killer Wat Tyler. All have one handwriting-insidious murder during negotiations, the leader in As soon as the feudal militia was confronted with any organized rebuff, the knights immediately got into the jug.
  • Captainvp 12 November 2019 19: 09 New
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    The article is interesting, thanks. However, the following is in doubt:

    The number of Russian troops is currently estimated at about 30 thousand people, about another 20 thousand were put up by Polovtsy, they were headed by the thousand thousand Yarun - voivode Mstislav Udatny. Historians believe that the next time the Russians could assemble such a large army only in the 1380 year - for the Battle of Kulikovo.


    Surely at present someone is evaluating the size of the Russian army (it would be nice to bring a source), but not by all, and perhaps not even by the majority. Personally, this assessment seems to me very high. 30 thousand - this is similar to the upper mobilization potential of all of Russia. In addition, the statement about the infantry is highly questionable. By that time, there was no infantry in Russia, except for what in the future would be called the "land army", which would not have been taken on a long campaign.
    1. VLR
      VLR 12 November 2019 19: 54 New
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      There was an infantry. You can argue about the number, but it was the infantrymen who were transported on the boats - the horse units were not transported like that, usually they went by themselves. And think for yourself, what is the point of transporting the same Galician cavalry on boats along the Dniester to the Black Sea, and from there, along the Dnieper to Khortitsa? The cavalry went separately, and the infantry were transported by ship.
      1. Captainvp 12 November 2019 20: 06 New
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        And then this infantry chased the Mongols for a couple of days, holding on to the horse-drawn stirrups? Let me doubt it. Personally, I have no doubt that the infantry (except as the labor force used in the siege and defense of cities) at that time in Russia was not in principle. Well, perhaps dismantled combatants and city regiments can be called infantry. By the way, in addition to mentioning the rooks, do you have any other reasons to insist on the infantry?
        1. VLR
          VLR 12 November 2019 20: 31 New
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          It is known that the Russian infantry units went to the Steppe against the Polovtsy. Horsemen were usually only warriors of the prince’s personal squad. The same Igor Svyatoslavich, according to the chronicler, says:
          "If we jump, we will save ourselves, but we will abandon ordinary people, and that will be a sin on us before God." This seems strange, but the Polovtsy had vezhs who went bankrupt, and the speed of movement on carts was not higher than the speed of the foot soldiers. Therefore, it is believed that against the Mongols, they also led the "lance infantry", it amounted to about half of the Russian army. It was she who stood in the Kiev camp, and many of these foot soldiers died near the Dnieper.
          It is believed that in the Kiev detachment there could be about 1500 cavalry, in the Galician detachment about 1000, in the detachments of other princes less. Moreover, it was heavy cavalry, light cavalry provided Polovtsy.
          1. Captainvp 12 November 2019 20: 35 New
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            "Ordinary people" does not necessarily mean infantry. Rather, we can talk about ordinary warriors - people not noble, not boyars from the senior squad. Horsemen were not only soldiers of the personal squad, but also soldiers of the city regiments. There were no other “howls”. Excuse me, but how is it known that on foot went against the Polovtsy?
            1. VLR
              VLR 12 November 2019 21: 56 New
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              Yes, this is generally a known fact. The Russians did not go to battle in the steppe with the Polovtsian cavalry, but to destroy their strongholds. Which were not very mobile - until the yurts were dismantled, while the goods were loaded onto carts, the speed of movement of these carts was minimal. The main thing was to find these sites. And then the heavy princely cavalry drove off the Polovtsian light, not trying to pursue it, the foot soldiers came and ravaged the vezh. Polovtsy could not oppose this tactic. Only retaliatory raids, where the trump card was the suddenness and speed of movement, while the princes were withdrawing the squad, they were already far away. But they did not know how to take Russian cities, they just robbed the neighborhood. In recent years, the danger was mainly presented as allies of a prince in internecine wars. As an easy auxiliary cavalry for raids, persecution, ruin of the territory of a hostile principality, capture is full.
              By the way, the Russian squads in 1223 year, from Khortitsa (Varyazhsky island) went 9 days down the Dnieper and only then the Mongols led them away - to Kalka, apparently, to the place they had previously chosen, where it was possible to hide the shock backup formations from the Russians, flaunting only part of the army. Therefore, some of the soldiers managed to reach the Dnieper after the defeat, and so Subedei managed to reach the Dnieper in three days, chasing them, and returning to the Kiev camp.
              1. Captainvp 13 November 2019 03: 34 New
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                I apologize, but you still have not answered the substantive question. It does not follow at all from the fact that the Russians ravaged the "limited mobility" camps that some infantry took part in the ruin. Once again: the last time a mention of infantry (namely infantry, and not infantry combat, as such - the Battle of Lipitsky, for example, where the Novgorodians took the battle dismounted) according to well-known sources dates back to the XI century. In XII, and especially in XIII, there was no combat infantry in Russia. And it was not until the end of the XNUMXth century. And the cavalry formed the basis of the army until the end of the first third of the XNUMXth century with the introduction of "regiments of a foreign (new) system." At least that’s modern military historical concept. For my amateurish side, I can assume that the idea of ​​infantry appeared in the XNUMXth century in part due to a false interpretation of the concept of "militia" (according to modern ideas at that time - unprofessional soldiers, and therefore most likely on foot, while in reality " militia "meant only prefabricated regiments of professional equestrian soldiers). Hence the men with the dracoli on the Kulikovo field in the famous painting, and the "canonical" description of the Battle of the Ice, etc. At that time, at least from the point of view of logistics and the chronology of events in both cases, no infantry on the battlefield could be purely physical.

                However, I'm afraid I did not convince you.
                1. VLR
                  VLR 13 November 2019 06: 37 New
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                  Even in the 13 century, every Russian principality had a ship or lodge army. In summer it was more convenient to go hiking along the rivers, in winter - to make horseback riding. In 1219-1220 Grand Duke Vladimir Yuri sent two ship rats against the Bulgarians. In 1240, Alexander Nevsky used a lone army against the Swedes. And these were infantry units. The cavalry on the boats was not transported.
                  And in front of Kalka, a significant part of the Russian army was delivered to Khortitsa on boats.
                  1. Captainvp 13 November 2019 20: 16 New
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                    The early Russian annals are stingy and laconic. This is what the Novgorod Chronicle says about the event of 1240 senior out of:

                    Prince Oleksandr didn’t die a little since Novgorod and Ladoga came to Nya, and by force I prayed to Saint Sophia and prayer, Our Lady and Blessed Virgin Mary, July 15, to commemorate Saint Curic and Ulita, on weekly gathering of saints 630 , like in Chalcedon; and that speed is great. And that kill the swiftness of their governor, the name of Spiridon; and to the creatures, like piskup kill the same quick; and many / l.127./ many of them pade; and on top of the ship there were two husky men, before himself a wasteland and to the sea; and their prow, having dug up the pit, was sweeping into the nude of the best; and ini mnozi ulcerate bysha; and that night, which did not wait for the light of the monster, to be put to shame.
                    Novgorod is the same pade: Kostyantin Lugotinits, Gyuryata Pineshchinich, Nam'st, Nerzhdil Nedydilov son of a tanner, and all 20 men from Ladoga, or I am 1, God bless. Prince Oleksandr, from Novgorod and from Ladoga, came to all of you with your sons, preserving God and holy Sophia and prayers to all the saints.


                    As you can see, very briefly, but in essence, nothing is said about the "lodge rati." In the annals of the younger exodus, the loyal army is really mentioned. However, is it possible to blindly trust descriptions of details made in the middle of the 200th century — more than XNUMX years after the events? The annals are fabulous, filled with monologues that are clearly artificially inserted into the mouths of actors, for example:

                    Bishop Spiridon bless him and let him go. I’m going to him from the church, wiping away my tears, and beginning to strengthen my squad, and say: “God is not in power, remember the truth, let us remember the proverb Davyd: these weapons, and these completely”; we shall call upon the name of the Lord of our God; “Eighty times and a scum” And the idea of ​​them in a little “squad”, do not wait, having eaten with your own strength, falling on the holy Trinity. Pitifully hear, more than 6th and kinda worthy, like his father Yaroslav honest and great
                    etc.

                    We can assume that, as often happens, the chronicler imposes the realities of today on the affairs of the past (in my opinion: if ear-flaps in the 200th century walk on foot rivers, then Prince Novgorod of Novgorod should have done the same thing XNUMX years ago) and embarrassingly embellishes.

                    Finally, delivering warriors on a boat does not necessarily cancel the presence of horses. Guillaume Bastard was able to deliver to England quite a horse army in fights - about the same boats (there was no European Koga). As for Kalka, it can be assumed, of course, that part of the regiments dismounted and, on horseback, horseless, went down the river to the borders of the wild field to fight the nomad army. But somehow, one doesn’t really believe in such stupidity of our ancestors.
  • certero 13 November 2019 15: 42 New
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    After the phrase "the main part of the forces of the Russian army was infantry," we can no longer read.
    There was no infantry in the Russian army by this time. The army was completely equestrian.
  • Liao Ping 13 November 2019 18: 22 New
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    I’ll insert my 5 cents. The steppe (Volga) does not burn in the fall and in the spring, it burns in the drought in the summer, June is of course a rarity but to set fire to two fingers to piss. And the steppe dries in a couple of days and blooms like in the picture in a couple of hours. Here
  • bandabas 13 November 2019 21: 28 New
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    Well, I just could not completely read this balcony.
    1. Laurus 14 November 2019 13: 16 New
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      Well, I understand you. Until the authors stop fighting the peaceful backward Mongols grazing their flocks in Mongolia far from the world and cut off from the world, it is impossible to read about that era.
  • Ekpin Tөlentaev 26 December 2019 19: 26 New
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    In the Russian chronicles there is no name for the Mongol people, but there are Tatars. All the Turkic peoples in the old days were called Tatars, and they, in turn, consisted of 62 tribes with specific names, which are still alive among Kazakhs, Tatars, Nogais. Moreover, the Arabian e. Eastern authors called this association Ulug Ulus Dzhuchi, Russians simply Horde.