Military Review

Mongols in Russia. Forced Union

167
В stories There are two periods in Russia, which in the writings of researchers receive diametrically opposite assessments and cause the most fierce debate.




The first of them is the initial centuries of Russian history and the famous "Norman question", which, in general, is quite understandable: there are few sources, and all of them are of later origin. So there is more than enough room for all kinds of conjectures and assumptions, and the politicization of this problem, which is inexplicable from a rational point of view, contributed to an unprecedented heat of passion.

M. Voloshin wrote in the 1928 year:
“Through the chaos of kingdoms, massacres and tribes.
Who, according to the syllables of the cemeteries reading
The tattered annals of the steppes,
Will tell us who these ancestors were -
Oratai on the Don and Dnieper?
Who will collect all the nicknames in the synodic
Steppe guests from the Huns to the Tatars?
The story is hidden in the mounds,
Written in the notches of swords,
Smothered by wormwood and weeds. "


Mongols in Russia. Forced Union


The second such period is the 13th-15th centuries, the time of the subordination of Russian lands to the Horde, which received the provisional name of the “Tatar-Mongol yoke”. There are immeasurably more sources here, but with the interpretations there are the same problems.

L. N. Gumilyov:
"Alien lives and alien deaths
They live in the strange words of another day.
They live without coming back
Where death found them and took them
Though half-erased and slurred in books
Their angry, their terrible deeds.
They live fogging with ancient blood
Spilled and decayed for a long time
Trusting descendants of the head.
But all spins the fate of the spindle
In one pattern; and the conversation of centuries
Sounds like a heart. "



A burial found in 2015, the Mongolian aimak Khentiy, dating from the period between 1215 and 1235 years. The skeleton of a man 65-70 years old, covered with gold coins, skeletons of 16 women and 12 horses were found in a stone tomb


It is about this second “damned” problem of Russian history that we will talk about now.

Tatar-Mongols and the Tatar-Mongol yoke


We must say right away that the term “Tatar-Mongols” itself is artificial, “cabinet”: in Russia no “hybrid” Tatar-Mongols were known. And they did not hear about the “Tatar-Mongol yoke” in Russia until the unknown historian P.N. Naumov mentioned it to almost anyone in his work in the year 1823. And he, in turn, borrowed this term from a certain Christopher Kruse, who in Germany published in 1817 "Atlas and tables for the history of all European lands and states from their first population to our times." And here is the result:
“It is possible to remain in human memory
Not in cycles of poems or prose volumes,
But with just one single line:
"How good, how fresh the roses were!" "


So Y. Helemsky wrote about the line of the poem by I. Myatlev. The situation is the same here: two authors have long been forgotten, and the term coined by one and introduced into scientific circulation by the other lives and lives.

But the phrase "Tartar yoke" it is really found in a real historical source - the notes of Daniel Prince (ambassador of Emperor Maximilian II), who in 1575 writes about Ivan IV that “by the overthrow of the Tartar yoke” he proclaimed himself king, “which Moscow princes had never used before.”

The problem is that “enlightened Europeans” at that time called Tartaria a vast territory that did not have a clear outline, lying east of the borders of the lands that are part of the Holy Empire of the German nation and the Catholic world.


"Tartaria" on one of the medieval maps


Therefore, it is difficult to say whom Prince calls "tartars." Namely Tatars? Or, in general, “barbarians,” who in this context could be anyone. Even the political opponents of Ivan - other Russian princes and boyars, desperately resisting the centralization of power.

The mention of the “Tartary yoke” is also found in the Notes on the Moscow War (1578 – 1582) by Reinhold Heidenstein.

Jan Dlugosch in The Chronicles of the Famous Kingdom of Poland no longer writes about the Tartarian or Tartarian, but specifically about the “barbarian yoke”, also without explaining who he considers to be “barbarians”.

Finally, the yoke itself - what is it all about?

Currently, this word is perceived as a synonym for some kind of “burden”, “oppression” and so on. However, in its original meaning - this is part of the harness, a wooden frame worn on the neck of two animals, for their joint work. That is, there is little good in this device for the one they put it on, but nevertheless it is not intended for bullying and torture, but for working in pairs. And therefore, even in the first half of the 19th century, the word “yoke” did not evoke unambiguously negative associations. Speaking about the “Yoke”, the first historians most likely had in mind the traditional policy of the Horde khans (who wished to receive their tribute stably), aimed at suppressing internal unrest in the Russian principalities under their control, forcing their vassals to move not like “swan, cancer and pike ”, and in about one direction.

Now we turn to the estimates of this period of Russian history by different authors.

Proponents of the traditional point of view on the Mongol conquest, describe it as a chain of continuous suffering and humiliation. It is argued that the Russian principalities for some reason protected Europe from all these Asian horrors, giving it the possibility of "free and democratic development."

The quintessence of this thesis is the lines of A. S. Pushkin, who wrote:
“Russia was assigned a high mission ... Its boundless plains absorbed the power of the Mongols and stopped their invasion on the very edge of Europe; the barbarians did not dare to leave enslaved Rus behind them and returned to the steppes of their east. The resulting education was saved by the torn and dying Russia. ”


It’s very beautiful and pathos, just imagine: the brutal “northern barbarians” selflessly “dying out” so that German youths have the opportunity to study at universities, while Italian and Aquitaine girls sigh languidly, listening to the ballads of the Truvers.

That’s a disaster, and there’s nothing to be done: our mission is so “high”, we must comply. It is only strange that the ungrateful Europeans strove at every opportunity to defend Russia from their last strength with a sword or spear in the back.

“Don't you like our arrows?” Get advanced bolts from a crossbow, and be patient a bit: we have a learned monk Schwartz here, he is working on innovative technologies. ”

Do you remember these lines of A. Blok?
“For you - centuries, for us - a single hour.
We are like obedient slaves
They held a shield between two hostile races -
Mongols and Europe! ”


Great, right? "Obedient slaves"! The necessary definition is found! So even the “civilized Europeans” did not always, but only once again insulted and “applied” us.

Proponents of a different point of view, on the contrary, are sure that it was the Mongol conquest that allowed the East and North-East of the Russian lands to maintain their identity, their religion and cultural traditions. The most famous among them is L. N. Gumilyov, whose poem we quoted at the beginning of the article. They believe that Ancient Russia (which was called “Kievan” only in the 19th century) already at the end of the 12th century was in a deep crisis that would inevitably lead to its death, regardless of the appearance of the Mongols. Even in the previously unified Rurikovich dynasty, only the Monomashichs, who split into two branches and were at enmity between themselves, were of importance now: the elders controlled the north-eastern principalities, the younger - the southern. Polotsk has long stood out as a separate principality. The policy of the Novgorod authorities was also far from all-Russian interests.

Indeed, in the second half of the XII century, discord and contradictions between the Russian princes reached their zenith, and the brutality of the confrontation shocked even those who were accustomed to internecine wars and the constant raids of the Polovtsian contemporaries.

1169 year: Andrei Bogolyubsky, having captured Kiev, gives it to his troops for a three-day sack: this is done only with alien and completely hostile cities.


"The capture of Kiev by Andrei Bogolyubsky." Thumbnail from the Radziwill Chronicle, XV century


1178 year: Residents of besieged Torzh declare submission to Grand Duke Vladimir Vsevolod the Big Nest, offering both ransom and a large tribute. He is ready to agree, but his warriors say: "We did not come to kiss with them." And far from the weakest of the Russian princes gives in to their will: Russian soldiers capture the Russian city and very carefully, with great pleasure, rob it.


"The capture of the New Bargain (Torzhok) by the retinue of Prince Vsevolod Yuryevich the Big Nest in 1178." Thumbnail of the Radziwill Chronicle, XV century


1187 year: The army of Suzdal completely ruins the Ryazan principality: "Their land is empty and completely burned."

1203 year: Kiev somehow managed to recover from the barbaric ruin of the 1169 year, and, therefore, you can rob it again. After what Andrei Bogolyubsky did in the city, it seems that the people of Kiev are simply impossible to surprise with anything. The new conqueror, Rurik Rostislavich, succeeds: the Orthodox prince himself ruins Hagia Sophia and the Tithes Church (“all icons are decorated”) and indifferently watches how the Polovtsy who came with him “chopped up all the old monks, priests and nuns, and young blueberries, wives and the daughters of Kiev were taken to their camps. "


"The capture and plunder of Kiev, its monasteries and churches by the troops of Rurik Rostislavich Ovruchsky, Chernigov Olgovich and Polovtsy." Thumbnail from the Radziwill Chronicle, XV century


1208: Vladimir Prince Vsevolod the Big Nest burns Ryazan, and his soldiers catch the fleeing people like ownerless cattle and drive them in front of them, as the Crimean Tatars will then drive Russian slaves to Kafa.

1216 year: The battle of Suzdal and Novgorod on Lipitsa: more Russians perish on both sides than in the battle with the Mongols on the River City in 1238.


“The Battle of Novgorodians with Suzdal” (“The Miracle of the Icon of Our Lady of the Sign”), fragment, second half of the 15 century, Novgorod State United Museum-Reserve


Opponents of the historians of the traditional school tell us: the armies of the conquerors would still come - if not from the East, then from the West, and in turn would be "eaten" by disparate, constantly at war with each other, Russian principalities. And the Russian princes would gladly help the invaders "have" neighbors: if they brought the Mongols at each other, why, under other circumstances, would not bring the "Germans" or Poles? Why are they worse than the Tatars? And then, seeing foreign “cooks” at the walls of their cities, they would be very surprised: “And for what reason, Mr. Duke (or Grand Master)? We took Smolensk together with you last year! ”

Consequences of the West European and Mongol Conquests


But there was a difference in the consequences of the conquest - and very substantial. Western rulers and crusaders in the countries they captured first destroyed the local elite, replacing the princes and tribal leaders with their dukes, counts, and kommurs. And they demanded a change of faith, destroying, thus, the age-old traditions and culture of the conquered peoples. But the Mongols for Russia made an exception: the Chingizids did not pretend to the princely thrones of Vladimir, Tver, Moscow, Ryazan, and representatives of former dynasties ruled there. In addition, the Mongols were absolutely indifferent to missionary work, and therefore did not demand from the Russians either worship of the Eternal Blue Sky, or the change of Orthodoxy to Islam later (but they demanded respect for their religion and traditions when visiting the Khan’s headquarters). And it becomes clear why both the Russian princes and the Orthodox hierarchs so easily and willingly recognized the royal dignity of the Horde rulers, and in Russian churches prayers for the health of both pagan and Muslim khans were officially officially served. And this was characteristic not only for Russia. For example, in the Syrian Bible, the Mongol khan Khulagu and his wife (Nestorian) are depicted as new Konstantin and Elena:


Khan Hulagu and his wife in the image of the new Konstantin and Elena in the Syrian Bible


And even during the time of the Great Memorial, the Russian princes continued to pay tribute to the Horde, hoping for continued cooperation.

Further events are extremely interesting: with Russian lands, as if someone decided to conduct an experiment, dividing them roughly equally and allowing them to develop in alternative directions. As a result, the Russian principalities and cities that fell outside the sphere of Mongolian influence quickly lost their princes, lost their independence and all political importance, turning into the outlying territories of Lithuania and Poland. And those of them that became dependent on the Horde gradually transformed into a powerful state, which received the code name "Moscow Russia". By “Kievan Rus” Rus “Moscow” had approximately the same relationship as the Byzantine Empire to the Roman. Already of little significance Kiev now played the role of Rome, conquered by the barbarians, Moscow was rapidly gaining strength and claimed the role of Constantinople. And the famous formula of Filofei, the elder of the Pskov Elizarov Monastery, who called Moscow the Third Rome, did not cause any surprise or bewilderment among contemporaries: these words hung in the air of those years, waiting for someone to finally utter them. In the future, the Moscow kingdom will turn into the Russian Empire, the Soviet Union became its direct successor. N. Berdyaev wrote after the revolution:
"Bolshevism turned out to be the least utopian ... and the most faithful of the original Russian traditions ... Communism is a Russian phenomenon, despite the Marxist ideology ... there is a Russian fate, a moment of the internal fate of the Russian people."


But back in the XIII century and see how the Russian princes behaved in those terrible years for Russia. Here, the activity of three Russian princes is of great interest: Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, his son Alexander (Nevsky) and grandson Andrei (third son of Alexander Nevsky). The activity of the first, and especially the second of them, is usually evaluated only in the most excellent tones. However, an objective and unbiased study immediately catches the eye with a contradiction: from the point of view of supporters of the traditional approach to the Mongol conquest, all three must unconditionally be considered traitors and collaborators. Judge for yourself.

Yaroslav Vsevolodovich



Grand Duke Yaroslav Vsevolodovich. Fresco of the Archangel Cathedral of the Kremlin


Yaroslav Vsevolodovich became the Grand Duke of Vladimir after the death of his elder brother Yuri on the river Sit. And he died, including because Yaroslav did not come to his aid. Further - it’s completely “interesting”. In the spring of 1239, the Mongols are ravaged by Murom, Nizhny Novgorod, once again pass through Ryazan land, capturing and burning the remaining cities, besieging Kozelsk. And Yaroslav at that time, not paying any attention to them, was fighting the Lithuanians - very successfully, by the way. In the fall of the same year, the Mongols captured Chernihiv, and Yaroslav - the Chernigov city of Kamenets (and in it - the family of Mikhail Chernigov). Is it possible after this to be surprised that it was this belligerent, but so convenient prince to the Mongols, who was appointed in Batumi in 1243 by "aging all the prince in the Russian language" (Lavrentievsky Chronicle)? And in 1245, Yaroslav was not too lazy to go to Karakorum for the "shortcut". At the same time he was present at the elections of the Great Khan, marveled at the great traditions of the Mongolian steppe democracy. Well, and, in the meanwhile, with his denunciation, he ruined Prince Chernigov there, who was later canonized by the Russian Orthodox Church for his martyrdom.

Alexander Yaroslavich



Grand Duke Alexander Yaroslavich Nevsky. Portrait from the Titular, 1672


After the death of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, the Grand Duchy of Vladimir received from the Mongols his youngest son - Andrei. Andrew's elder brother, Alexander, appointed only by the Grand Duke of Kiev, was offended by this terribly. I went to the Horde, where I became the adopted son of Batu Khan, fraternizing with his own son Sartak.


The son of Batu Khan Sartak. Illustration from the book of V.V. Kargalova Russia and nomads


Entering confidence, he informed his brother that he, in alliance with Daniil Galitsky, wants to speak out against the Mongols. And he personally brought to Russia the so-called "Nevruyev army" (1252 year) - the first Mongol campaign in Russia after the Batu invasion. Andrey’s army was defeated, he himself fled to Sweden, and his warriors who were captured were blinded by order of Alexander. By the way, Daniil Galitsky also reported on Andrey’s potential ally, as a result, the Kuremsa army went on a campaign against Galich. It was precisely after this that the truly Mongols came to Russia: in the Vladimir, Murom and Ryazan lands, the Baskaks arrived in the 1257 year, in Novgorod - in the 1259.

In the 1262 year, Alexander most brutally suppressed anti-Mongol uprisings in Novgorod, Suzdal, Yaroslavl and Vladimir. After which he banned the veche in the cities of North-Eastern Russia subject to him.


Ivanov S.V. "Baskaki" picture 1908 of the year


And then - all according to Tolstoy Alexei Konstantinovich:
“Shout: give tribute!
(At least carry the saints)
There is a lot of rubbish
It has arrived in Russia,
What a day, brother to brother,
Luck comes to the Horde ... ".


Since that time, it all started.

Andrei Alexandrovich



Prince Andrei Alexandrovich, engraving of the 1850 of the year


About this, Prince N. M. Karamzin said:
"None of the princes of the Monomakh family did more evil to the Fatherland than this unworthy son of Nevsky."


The third son of Alexander is Andrei, in 1277-1278. At the head of the Russian detachment he went with the Horde to fight in Ossetia: having taken the city of Dyadyakov, the Allies returned with great booty and were quite pleased with each other. In 1281, Andrei, following the example of his father, brought the Mongol army to Russia for the first time - from the khan Mengu-Timur. But his older brother Dmitry, too, was the grandson of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich and the son of Alexander Yaroslavich: he did not blunder, he answered with dignity a large Tatar detachment from the rebel Beklyarbek Nogai. The brothers had to put up - in the 1283 year.

In 1285, Andrei brought the Tatars to Russia for the second time, but was defeated by Dmitry.

The third attempt (1293 year) turned out to be successful for him, and terrible for Russia, because this time “Dudenev's army” came with him. The Grand Duke Vladimir, Novgorod and Pereslavsky Dmitry, Prince of Moscow Daniel, Prince Mikhail of Tver, Svyatoslav Mozhaisk, Dovmont Pskovsky and some other, less significant, princes were defeated, 14 of Russian cities were looted and burned. For the common people, this invasion became catastrophic and was remembered for a long time. Because until then, Russian people could still hide from the Mongols in the forests. Now, the Tatars were helped by the warriors of the Russian prince Andrei Alexandrovich to catch them outside the cities and villages. And children in Russian villages were frightened by Dudukoy in the middle of the twentieth century.

But, recognized by the Holy Russian Orthodox Church, Alexander Nevsky was also declared a national hero, and therefore all these, not very convenient, facts about him and his closest relatives are hushed up. The emphasis is on opposing Western expansion.

But historians who consider the “yoke” a mutually beneficial alliance of the Horde and Russia, the collaborative actions of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich and Alexander, on the contrary, appreciate it. They are convinced that otherwise the Russian north-eastern principalities were awaited by the sad fate of Kiev, Chernigov, Pereyaslavl and Polotsk, which quickly turned from “subjects” of European politics into “objects” and could no longer decide their own fate. And even the numerous, detailed in Russian chronicles, cases of mutual and most outright vileness of the princes of the North-East, in their opinion, were less evil than the anti-Mongol position of the same Daniil Galitsky, whose pro-Western policy ultimately led to the decline of this strong and a wealthy principality, and their loss of independence.


The Right Prince Alexander Nevsky begs Batu Khan to spare the Russian land. Chromolithograph. End of the 19th century


For quite a long time, there were few who wanted to fight the Tatars, they were also afraid to attack their tributaries. It is known that in the 1269 year, upon learning of the arrival of the Tatar detachment in Novgorod, the assembled were on a campaign “the Germans made peace according to the will of Novgorod, fearing the name of the Tatar too.”

The onslaught of the western neighbors, of course, continued, but now the Russian principalities had an ally overlord.



Recently, a hypothesis has literally appeared before our eyes that there was no Mongol conquest of Russia at all, because there were no Mongols themselves, which are described on countless pages of a huge number of sources of many countries and peoples. And those Mongols that, nevertheless, were - both sat and still sit in their backward Mongolia. We will not dwell on this hypothesis for a long time, since it will take too much time. We point out only one of its weaknesses - the "reinforced concrete" argument, according to which a large Mongolian army simply could not overcome such vast distances.

The “dusty campaign” of Kalmyks



Kalmyks, engraving


The events, which we will briefly discuss now, did not take place in the dark times of Attila and Genghis Khan, but by historical standards relatively recently - the 1771 year, under Catherine II. Even the slightest doubt in their reliability is not and never was.

In the XVII century, from the Dzungaria to the Volga came (without dying of starvation or disease on the way), the Derben-Oirats whose tribal union included Torguts, Derbets, Khoshuts and Choros. We know them under the name Kalmyks.


Map of Dzungaria compiled by Swedish prisoner of war Gustav Johan Renat


These aliens, of course, were forced to get in touch with the Russian authorities, who were quite sympathetic to their new neighbors, since then no irreconcilable contradictions arose. Moreover, the skilled and experienced Steppe warriors became allies of Russia in the fight against its traditional opponents. According to the agreement of the 1657 year, they were allowed to wander along the right bank of the Volga to Tsaritsyn and along the left to Samara. In exchange for military assistance, Kalmyks were given 20 pounds of gunpowder and 10 pounds of lead annually, in addition, the Russian government committed itself to protecting Kalmyks from forced baptism.


Kalmyk. Lithography, the first half of the XIX century


Kalmyks bought grain and various industrial goods from the Russians, sold meat, hides, military booty, restrained the Nogais, Bashkirs, and Kabardins (inflicting serious defeats on them). They went with the Russians on campaigns in the Crimea and fought along with them with the Ottoman Empire, participated in the wars of Russia with European countries.


Kalmyk warriors in the Russian-Swedish war (1741 — 1743 gg.)


However, with the increase in the number of colonists (including German), the advent of new cities and Cossack villages, there was less and less space for nomads. The situation was aggravated by the famine of 1768-1769, when a cattle mass mortality occurred due to the harsh winter. And in Dzungaria (the former homeland of the Kalmyks) in 1757, the Zins brutally suppressed the rebellion of the Aborigines, provoking a new wave of exodus. Many thousands of refugees went to the states of Central Asia, and some reached the Volga. Their stories about the deserted steppes greatly excited the relatives, as a result of the Kalmyks of clans, the Torguts, Khoshuts and Choros made a rash decision by the whole people to return to the once native steppes. The tribe of derbets remained in place.

In January of the 1771 of the year, Kalmyks, whose number reached from 160 to 180 of thousands of people, crossed the Yaik. Different researchers determine the number of their wagons in 33-41 thousand. Later, some of these immigrants (about 11 thousands of wagons) returned to the Volga, the rest continued on their way.

Note: this was not a professional army, consisting of strong young men with clockwork horses and full combat equipment - most of the Kalmyks who went to Dzungaria were women, children and the elderly. And with them they drove the herds, drove all the belongings.



Their campaign was not a festive procession - all along the way they were subjected to constant blows of Kazakh tribes. Near Lake Balkhash, Kazakhs and Kyrgyz completely surrounded them; they managed to escape with huge losses. As a result, only less than half of those who traveled reached the border with China. This did not bring them happiness; they were divided and settled in 15 different places, living conditions were much worse than on the Volga. And there was no strength to resist unfair conditions. But, for half a year, burdened with cattle and property, leading women, old people and children, the Kalmyks came from the Volga to China! And there is no reason to believe that from the Mongolian steppes to Khorezm, and from Khorezm to the Volga, the disciplined and well-organized Tumens of the Mongols could not have reached.

"Tatar exit" in Russia


Now we will return to Russia again to talk a little about the complicated relationship between the Horde khans and the Russian princes.

The problem was that the Russian princes readily involved the Horde rulers in their strife, sometimes giving bribes to the khan’s closest relatives or his beloved wife, bargaining for an army of some “prince”. The ruin of the lands of the rival princes not only did not upset them, but even pleased them. Moreover, they were ready to “blindly” look at the robbery by the “allies” of their own cities and villages, hoping to compensate for losses due to defeated competitors. After the rulers of Sarai allowed the Grand Dukes themselves to collect tribute for the Horde, the "stakes" in internecine disputes increased so much that they began to justify any meanness and any crime. It was no longer a matter of prestige, but of money, and very large money.

The paradox was that in many cases it was much more convenient and profitable for the Horde khans not to organize punitive campaigns against Russia, but to receive the agreed “exit” in time and in full. The loot in such forced raids went mainly into the pocket of the next "prince" and his subordinates, the khan was left with crumbs, and the resource base of tributaries was undermined. But there was usually more than one who wanted to collect this “exit” for the khan, and therefore had to support the most adequate of them (in fact, often the one who would pay the most for the right to collect the Horde tribute).

And now an extremely interesting question: was the Mongol invasion of Russia inevitable? Or is it a consequence of a chain of events, removing any of which could be avoided "close acquaintance" with the Mongols?

We will try to answer in the next article.
Author:
Articles from this series:
Ryzhov V.A. Empire of Genghis Khan and Khorezm. The beginning of the confrontation
Ryzhov V.A. Empire of Genghis Khan and Khorezm. Invasion
Ryzhov V.A. Empire of Genghis Khan and Khorezm. Last Hero
167 comments
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  1. svp67
    svp67 9 November 2019 06: 49
    +1
    Well, everything is as always: "Our land is abundant and rich, only there is no order in it ..."
    1. Bar2
      Bar2 9 November 2019 08: 19
      -16
      The problem is that “enlightened Europeans” at that time called Tartaria a vast territory that did not have a clear outline, lying to the east of the borders of the lands belonging to the Holy Empire of the German nation and the Catholic world.


      this is a substitution of concepts. Tartary is not a territory, but a state, because the territory does not have capitals, but the state does. That is, evidence in the form of the British Encyclopedia of 1771.



      I’ll add from myself that the name Tartaria existed only in the form of Western toponyms and ethnonyms. But this state, of course, had its own name and was called this state of Darius, or apparently due to some old rules about the greatness of the states of Dardaria, which was transformed into Western documents into Tartaria and Tartars / Tatars.
      Well, there were a lot of all sorts of Darius around the world.
      -Amu Daria
      -Cheese Daria
      -Obdoria / Darius -the Principality, which was part of the title of Russian tsars
      -Condoria / Daria is the same.
      -Dauria-Darius
      -Andora anti Darius
      The names Darius are found all over the world in Asia, Africa and Lat. America.
      1. Bar2
        Bar2 9 November 2019 08: 28
        -5
        Ryzhov uses poetry as evidence, I also want to bring some poems, but in favor of my version of the story.
        Tyutchev Fyodor Ivanovich was not a simple rhyming machine, but had a service in the diplomatic corps of the Republic of Ingushetia, so of course he knew more than everyone else and wrote his poems with knowledge of the matter.

        1. VLR
          9 November 2019 08: 41
          +12
          Well, what are you, where did you see any evidence in the poems of Voloshin and Gumilyov? There are unanswered questions. I brought them in to set a certain mood, to set readers in the right way, so that they understand me better. For literary reasons. And the first illustrations are in tone with these verses.
        2. Bar2
          Bar2 9 November 2019 18: 25
          -1
          Poor Fyodor Ivanovich gave you minuses for fuel. They don’t like your Russian geography.
          1. Nikolai Korovin
            Nikolai Korovin 9 November 2019 20: 10
            -4
            Well, of course ... Who is Tyutshov? Yes, a rhymer, and nothing more. Well, what could he know? Nothing at all. "He could not distinguish iamba from chorea, no matter how we fought." They are all like that.
          2. Korsar4
            Korsar4 9 November 2019 20: 27
            +1
            Tyutchev - really like it. But his free interpretation is not.
            1. Nikolai Korovin
              Nikolai Korovin 9 November 2019 23: 02
              0
              You are mistaken. The ancestor of Fedor Ivanovich in the time of Peter I bore the surname Tyutshov. My slight scolding was an answer to the minus unfortunately Pavel, that he (Fedor Ivanovich) instructed the minuses. That's all.
              1. Nikolai Korovin
                Nikolai Korovin 18 November 2019 18: 15
                0
                It's funny Fyodor Ivanovich wrote something like that, he was mussed, Pavel regretted that Fyodor Ivanovich was mussed, mourned regret, I Fedor Ivanovich cursed with Ezopov’s tongue in response to the minus unfortunately Pavel - they also mumbled! I don’t understand anything. But it is comforting that I got a minus along with a good company.
      2. Usher
        Usher 9 November 2019 09: 11
        +5
        What are you talking about? These are unknown lands in the view of Europeans. What did you come up with about Daria? Typical Fomenovod.
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri 9 November 2019 23: 22
          -1
          Quote: Usher
          Typical Fomenovod.

          Foo how intolerant! He, simply, uh ... a citizen of a non-traditional historical orientation. lol
          1. Ehanatone
            Ehanatone 10 November 2019 21: 59
            -1
            "Ugh, how intolerant! He's just, uh-uh ... a citizen of non-traditional historical orientation"
            + + + + +
          2. Usher
            Usher 14 November 2019 22: 58
            0
            Cons untraditional throwing)))
      3. Korsar4
        Korsar4 9 November 2019 09: 12
        +15
        Not a philologist, but I can’t resist:

        Condors - obviously got over from Condoria.
        The Daronosita is the transfer of Daurians to all places of worship.
        The parasite is the contemptuous name for Daurians in the Western world.
        And at Bazhov Daryonka from "Silver Hoof" Yano was up to something.

        Too shaky bases to rely on.
        1. Nikolai Korovin
          Nikolai Korovin 9 November 2019 20: 13
          +4
          Philologists - they are. Had happiness (or misfortune? - I really don’t know). Such a thing through the suffixes will be cropped that Fomenko did not even dream of. But they don’t know the elementary facts of generally recognized history and geography. That the Volga flows into the Caspian Sea, and the horses eat oats and hay - a revelation.
      4. Hantengri
        Hantengri 9 November 2019 12: 06
        +20
        Quote: Bar2
        Well, there were a lot of all sorts of Darius around the world.
        -Amu Daria
        -Cheese Daria

        What kind of Daria-Marya? Amu Daryo and Syrdaryo, actually. Moreover, the word "daryo" is translated from both Farsi and Türkic, just like a RIVER.
        Quote: Bar2
        The names Darius are found all over the world in Asia, Africa and Lat. America.

        I'll give you another idea: Tashkent, ParkKent, ChimKent, Gazalkent, KhodzhiKent, etc., and there are no numbers of them => Almost all of Central Asia used to be part of the English county of Kent. Think about it!
        1. Nikolai Korovin
          Nikolai Korovin 9 November 2019 20: 14
          +3
          Undoubtedly. It is from here that the legend of the abundance of bread in Tashkent comes from. It is known that Kent is especially rich in them since the time of King Lear.
        2. Nikolai Korovin
          Nikolai Korovin 9 November 2019 20: 17
          0
          This is all from King Darius. Darius No. 3 is overthrown by Alexander the Great. Dozens of Alexandria did not particularly take root, but the established local names remained.
          1. Hantengri
            Hantengri 9 November 2019 20: 58
            0
            Quote: Nikolai Korovin

            This is all from King Darius.

            Absolutely right! The natives couldn’t agree among themselves in which of the two rivers, the Oksa, or Yaksart, Sanya, Darich drowned. Therefore, in order to avoid unjustified massacre arising from a sudden outbreak of personal hostility, they decided to consider that he drowned in both at the same time.
      5. Nicholas C.
        Nicholas C. 9 November 2019 13: 51
        -6
        Another portion of slanderous Russophobic fabrications, anti-Russian propaganda. To call the holy noble Grand Duke Alexander Nevsky a traitor is who should be? The attitude to Russia of Alexander Nevsky and his brother Andrei has long been studied, which of them is a traitor and who is not - has been studied in detail.
        Quote: V. Ryzhov
        Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, his son Alexander (Nevsky) and the grandson of Andrei (third son of Alexander Nevsky). The activity of the first, and especially the second of them, is usually evaluated only in the most excellent tones. However, when objective and unbiased research a contradiction is immediately evident: from the point of view of supporters of the traditional approach to the Mongol conquest, all three must unconditionally be considered traitors and collaborators.
        How! The author registered himself as objective (!!! ??), unbiased (!!! ???) researchers (!!! ???). However, he has no more reason for this than the Svidomo "ukroistorikov" who, like him, according to Orwell, replace the truth with a lie.
        A few examples.
        Quote: V. Ryzhov
        present the historical source is the notes of Daniel Prince (ambassador of Emperor Maximilian II), who in 1575 writes about Ivan IV, that he “proclaimed himself king” after the overthrow of the Tartar yoke, “which the princes of Moscow had never used before.”
        A strange statement. The ambassador of Emperor Maximilian I to the father of Ivan IV, Sigismund Herberstein, is aware that even Ivan IV's grandfather Ivan III became the sovereign ruler of Russia and took the title of "Sovereign of All Russia", and the ambassador of Maximilian II, it turns out, is not aware. A characteristic quote from the book by S. Herberstein "Rerum Moscoviticarum commentarii Sigismund Liberi baronis in Herberstain, Neyperg, et Guettenhag Russiae, et quae nunc eius metropolis est Moscoviae, brevissima descriprio "in the chapter" On the customs when receiving ambassadors ":" ... with the words: "Count Leonard, the great sovereign Basil, by the grace of God Tsar and Tsar of All Russia and the great prince shows you his mercy and sends bread from his table. " The interpreter translated these words in a distinct voice. We stood listening to the grace of the sovereign. "
        Quote: V. Ryzhov
        1169 year: Andrei Bogolyubsky, having captured Kiev, gives it to his troops for a three-day sack: this is done only with alien and completely hostile cities.
        What's wrong here? After Andrei Bogolyubsky moved the capital of Russia from Kiev to Vladimir, not only the squad moved with him, but also those who began to build, equip the new capital, princely people, merchants, etc. Who left to live in Kiev? It turns out when All-Russian army (and not "his" as the "author" writes) under the command of son A. Bogolyubsky liberated Kiev (the "author" for some reason calls this action on the part of the legitimate Grand Duke "capture"), Kiev defend Torquay and Berendey... "To the author" of their torques and berendey?
        Quote: V. Ryzhov
        As a result, Russian principalities and cities that fell outside the sphere of Mongolian influence quickly lost their princes, lost their independence and all political significance, turning into the outlying territories of Lithuania and Poland. And those of them that became dependent on the Horde gradually transformed into a powerful state, which received the code name “Moscow Russia”
        Abracadabra is some kind. The lands of modern Ukraine did not become dependent, but directly became part of the Golden Horde. In Kiev, the khan and the Baskak sat up to the very blue waters. And the lands to the south were liberated already by Catherine II from the Crimean Khanate - the fragment of Golden, then the Great Horde. Powerful state? Russia became a powerful state because there were never khans in it (except for the raids proper) and the Baskaks quickly disappeared. Since when is Lithuania not a great Russian (and Zhemoyt) principality with Russian princes? Are the Gediminids the Lithuanians who are now the Lietuvisis?
        Quote: V. Ryzhov
        Russian princes readily involved the Horde rulers in their strife, sometimes giving bribes to the khan’s closest relatives or his beloved wife, bargaining for himself an army of some “prince”. The ruin of the lands of the rival princes not only did not upset them, but even pleased. Moreover, they were ready to “blindly” look at the robbery by the “allies” of their own cities and villages, hoping to compensate for losses due to defeated competitors. After the rulers of Sarai allowed the Grand Dukes themselves to collect tribute for the Horde, the "stakes" in internecine disputes increased so much that they began to justify any meanness and any crime. It was no longer about prestige, but about money, and very big money.
        Enchanting Russophobia. Incitement to hatred with zero quantitative information. Can this be the result of only the dense ignorance, ignorance of the author? Russian principalities were regions of the Golden Horde. The troops, which then performed law enforcement functions, were subordinate to the leader of the country. The Horde's troops were 90-95% Russian. For example, after the murder (by the way, not for collecting taxes) Baskak Shchelkan and his retinue, the Mongol army, led by Fedorchuk, arrived with a punitive aim. These troops were involved in restoring order a few times over the entire time. And according to the "author's" opus, one might think that there was almost daily terror. About "very big money" in Ukrainian hands. Actually, the Moscow principality paid a tax of 1280 rubles. And one city of Astrakhan costs 1800 rubles. After the start of self-collection of taxes, this amount has decreased. This led to the rapid growth and development of Moscow.
        1. karabass
          karabass 9 November 2019 18: 11
          -5
          Yes, the author is right! Nevsky faithfully served the khans, sort of like a Vlasov to Hitler. Only the khans won, but Hitler did not! That’s the whole difference!
          So this is Evpatiy Kolovrat a hero, and the Nevsky is a skin. In addition, the author knows that the Nevsky, both personally and on his order, gouged out the eyes of those Russians who fought with the Mongol troops (before, people believed in the afterlife, and believed that they would go to heaven, therefore they were more afraid of blinding than death) These facts are all historians know, just to mention it is not decent. And the priests who made a good job under the Horde made a "hero"
          1. Nicholas C.
            Nicholas C. 9 November 2019 19: 36
            +5
            Quote: karabass
            Do not you understand that Russia is not the USSR? What war will we lose? It is not necessary to breed dreams, but to look for ways of retreat
            This is your post in another topic. It's your job with the "author" to write something like that.
            Alexander Nevsky defeated the Swedes, Germans, Lithuanians - for a century he stopped the invasion of the West on Russia. Because, in any offensive, the West carries out genocide and massacres of the Russian people, prohibits the Russian language, faith, culture, and cleans territories of us Russians. This is happening now, right now.
            For you and the "author" "Ryzhov" such Alexander Nevsky is a traitor. You call it chutzpah.
            Reliance on the Golden Horde allowed Russia to overcome fragmentation, preserve and increase the people. The horde did nothing like Western policy towards Russia (genocide, ethnic cleansing, prohibition of language, faith, culture, etc.).
            PS. It is not good that such "authors" appear on VO under the wing of the like-minded Nevzorov Shpakovsky. It's bad that there are a lot of similar bots, infobians, in the far corner of VO ("History").
            1. karabass
              karabass 9 November 2019 19: 42
              +1
              It was not a support, just Russia adapted to live under the Horde and therefore history went just like that
              I just can sometimes afford to tell the truth, the disclosure of which is taboo in society is all
            2. Nikolai Korovin
              Nikolai Korovin 9 November 2019 20: 27
              +4
              We can say that in Russia the rule (through the mediation of the Grand Dukes of Vladimir, then Moscow) was the Mongol dynasty. Not particularly interfering in internal affairs. Khan was called the king, as the former Byzantine emperor (the latter, however, more out of pure respect). The tribute was quite difficult - both in money and in people (right up to the construction of the Karakorum), but not unbearable, leaving the possibility of development. The strife almost stopped. When the Horde broke up due to internal instability, the Horde aristocracy went to the service of the Moscow Tsars. Someone does not like that almost half of the Russian noble families had Tatar roots. In particular, Kutuzov. But to cry for a canonized saint is a holy thing.
            3. Ehanatone
              Ehanatone 10 November 2019 22: 11
              +1
              Well, the Horde also did not genocide very weakly - the population was restored only by at least the 17th century, and someone claims that only by 19 ...
  2. Andrey Sukharev
    Andrey Sukharev 9 November 2019 07: 06
    +1
    The topic is very interesting, we look forward to continuing!
    1. Mcar
      Mcar 9 November 2019 08: 41
      -5
      Quote: Andrey Sukharev
      The topic is very interesting, we look forward to continuing!

      It is especially joyful that at least one author in the VO directly said that there were no Mongols in Russia. That the term itself was invented and put into circulation, think for yourself what goals.

      By the way, judging by the fortified border lines, the so-called "Tatar-Mongol" yoke ended in the 19th century. Or against whom were still powerful fortifications built?



      This is a diagram. And here is how these fortresses look in kind:



      Some are barely distinguishable:



      But there are those whom you can’t see from the ground — even if you’re trampling on it for a day or day:



      In short, no one has really approached the topic of the "Tatar-Mongol yoke" yet. This has yet to be studied by enthusiastic researchers, because everything is fine with the official story.
      1. Usher
        Usher 9 November 2019 09: 06
        +6
        Why are you ripping words out of context? She said that “Recently, literally before our eyes, a hypothesis has appeared that there was no Mongol conquest of Russia at all, because there were no Mongols themselves, about whom they described on countless pages of a huge number of sources from many countries and peoples. that, after all, they were - as they were, they are still sitting in their backward Mongolia "Where is he talking about this? Can you read? At that time there was the Siberian Horde, etc. With whom Ermak fought. Central Asia was not part of the Russian Empire. And not in the 19th century, but earlier. Find out first, then open your mouth. Typical iztorig truth-teller fomenkovod.
        1. Mcar
          Mcar 9 November 2019 09: 10
          0
          1. Prefer on you.

          2. Who is she?

          3. My compliment to the author is based on this:
          Tatar-Mongols and the Tatar-Mongol yoke

          We must say right away that the term “Tatar-Mongols” itself is artificial, “cabinet”: in Russia no “hybrid” Tatar-Mongols were known. And they did not hear about the “Tatar-Mongol yoke” in Russia until until now an unknown historian P.N. Naumov mentioned it in practically all his work to nobody in 1823. And he, in turn, borrowed this term from a certain Christopher Kruse, who in 1817 published in Germany, "Atlas and tables to review the history of all European lands and states from their first population to our times."
          1. Usher
            Usher 9 November 2019 09: 15
            -1
            And what is incomprehensible here? You probably play the fool or what? Why are you still in school? Do you know the meaning of the word TERN ??? Example: If people did not know for 300 years what ELECTRICITY is and what it was called, this does not say that ELECTRICITY as a natural and physical phenomenon did not exist 300 years ago. A clear example?
            1. Mcar
              Mcar 9 November 2019 09: 40
              -2
              Why are you so nervous? Is something hurting you?

              Quote: Usher
              If people did not know for 300 years what ELECTRICITY is and what it was called, this does not say that ELECTRICITY as a natural and physical phenomenon did not exist 3000 years ago. A clear example?

              You mean that there was a certain yoke, but you called it that in the 19th century, because you did not know what to call it?

              If so, then why not call it the Australian-Mexican yoke?

              I have already cited one fact for reflection on the so-called "Tatar-Mongol yoke". And here's another one. This is a scan of a page from the Encyclopedia Britannica of 1771:



              As you can see, there is Russia with its capital in St. Petersburg and some other Tartaria, which is divided into three:
              - Chinese, the capital of Chinyang
              - Independent, the capital of Samarkand
              - Moscow, the capital of Tobolsk (the area is almost three times larger than Russia)

              And here is the map, for clarity:



              If you search, this map can be found on a very large scale, where even the name of the settlements is visible.

              Pay attention - almost two hundred years have passed since the conquest of Siberia by Ermak, and the border of the Republic of Ingushetia even reaches the Urals and the Volga only pointwise, in places. Or what was called Siberia during Yermak’s campaign?
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 November 2019 15: 10
        +1
        Quote: McAr
        Quote: Andrey Sukharev
        The topic is very interesting, we look forward to continuing!

        It is especially joyful that at least one author in the VO directly said that there were no Mongols in Russia. That the term itself was invented and put into circulation, think for yourself what goals.

        By the way, judging by the fortified border lines, the so-called "Tatar-Mongol" yoke ended in the 19th century. Or against whom were still powerful fortifications built?



        This is a diagram. And here is how these fortresses look in kind:






        Coat of arms of the Kalinovsky rural settlement in the Nizhneserginsky district of the Sverdlovsk region. Depicts a fortress aerial view! Such typical fortresses (spurs "were built along the Siberian road during the time of Catherine II. However, for reference, for neophytes from Fomenko, what fortresses were built in Siberia in the Urals. Yekaterinburg, Chelyabinsk, Chebarkul, etc. These are fortresses-factories, that hysterical attempts to find a black cat in a black room do not count!
        Ancient "Daria" in flight! Herodotus wrote about one, Aristotle about the other, but they have nothing to do with the Tatars!
        1. Mcar
          Mcar 9 November 2019 15: 49
          -3
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          Such typical fortresses (spurs) were built along the Siberian road during the time of Catherine II.

          Why along the roads such fortresses? For beauty?
          There is no delirious argument.


          Interestingly, in other places there were no roads? )))

          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          However, for reference, for neophytes from Fomenko, what fortresses in Siberia in the Urals were built quite a few.

          Well, yes, a lot. 37 border fortified lines. What does "help" have to do with it?

          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          By the way, Yekaterinburg, Chelyabinsk, Chebarkul and others. These are fortress-factories so that attempts to find a black cat in a tantrum in a tantrum are not counted!

          If these cities had such fortresses, then this is for defense. You don’t think that there were factories inside these fortresses.

          You hysteria. And I'm calm. By the way, I hope my question does not exacerbate your exuberant state? Can you explain why serfdom never spread beyond the Urals? I’m very interested in composing what. )))
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 November 2019 16: 38
            +6
            If these cities had such fortresses, then this is for defense. You don’t think that there were factories inside these fortresses.

            You hysteria. And I'm calm. By the way, I hope my question does not exacerbate your exuberant state? Can you explain why serfdom never spread beyond the Urals? I’m very interested in composing what. )))


            Gyyy .... brilliance of intelligence!
            But they forgot to lay out the northern part of the Iset Line of the Orenburg Cossack Army or it is not included in your canvas!
            Question? Why in the Kungur, Tobolsk, Verkhoturye they built not even fortresses, but the Kremlin? The last two stone survived to the present day!
            Have you heard anything about the Babinovsky tract?
            And about wolfhounds (Bashkirs) and their revolts? Take an interest in creating Verkhneserginsky plant? The Russian settlement on its territory was rebelled by the rebel Tatars in the 30s of the 18th century! Or google how many times they burned the Chebarkul fortress? And after that, do you give out insinuations about the need for fortresses along the Siberian road Kazan-Kungur-Yekaterinburg-Tobolsk?
            Moreover, the fortresses were also covered by the “iron caravans” of the Chusovaya River!

            Now about the factories, any mining plant from the time of Peter I needs water, wood and ore! So they were all located in lowlands, below the dams of the ponds.
            Fortresses were set up in “tank-hazardous” directions (intersections of roads, water junctions and passes). The plants themselves were a force, take a look at the history of the Pugachev uprising or the Gamayunov revolts! The “free” peasants of the Urals, with Cossacks and Bashkirs, stormed the Staroutkinsky factory, which was defended by “free” workers and Tatars !!! Moreover, the first and last had artillery! Why am I joking about the "free" peasants and workers of the Urals? Yes, Duc I am a descendant of gamayunov - "serf workers", which bought N. N. Demidov in the Kaluga province and exported to the Urals! And so "voluntarily" that the uprising of the Gamayun region was suppressed for five years!
            Or was Demidov built by "free" workers Nizhny Tagil, Shaitanka and Real? Do not make me laugh!
            1. Mcar
              Mcar 9 November 2019 16: 57
              -2
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              But they forgot to lay out the northern part of the Iset Line of the Orenburg Cossack Army or it is not included in your canvas!

              As a deputy for the second time:



              Choose any line, ask for a search and you will have a chacha. Or was laziness ahead of you born - teach you everything on a silver platter? Where did the lordly habits come from?

              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              Question? Why in the Kungur, Tobolsk, Verkhoturye they built not even fortresses, but the Kremlin? The last two stone survived to the present day!

              For defense. Are there any options?

              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              Yes, Duc I am a descendant of gamayunov - "serf workers", which bought N. N. Demidov in the Kaluga province and exported to the Urals!

              To the Urals? Not for the Urals? I did not ask about the Urals. Can you imagine the distance from the Urals to Okhotsk, or put a map here? Repeat the question or read it yourself in my previous comment?
            2. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak 9 November 2019 19: 05
              +2
              Kote pane Kohanka "Tobolsk, Verkhoturye were not even built fortresses, but kremlin? The last two stone ones have survived to this day!"
              Fragments survived. Mostly there is a remake.
            3. Ehanatone
              Ehanatone 10 November 2019 22: 23
              +2
              "Or was Demidov built by the" free "workers of Nizhniy Tagil, Shaitanka and Reala?
              Sometimes comments are much more interesting than the article itself, especially with such controversial statements.!
      3. Elturisto
        Elturisto 9 November 2019 22: 09
        -2
        What do you not know about the raids of the Dzhungars (Mongols) and Kazakhs in Siberia?
        1. Mcar
          Mcar 10 November 2019 02: 28
          +1
          Quote: ElTuristo
          What do you not know about the raids of the Dzhungars (Mongols) and Kazakhs in Siberia?

          I'm alright. But what about you?

          You don’t see where the borders of the Republic of Ingushetia passed in the 18-19 centuries. on which raids took place?
          1. Elturisto
            Elturisto 10 November 2019 20: 48
            -1
            of course I see ... that's why I ask you ... are you worried about the raids of the Dzhungars (Mongols) and Kazakhs in Siberia in the 18th century?
  3. Olgovich
    Olgovich 9 November 2019 07: 38
    -4
    but still it is intended to work in pairs.
    Aha, then both the overseer and the slave, too - "work in pairs"! With the help of a whip, and everything is strictly in the interests of the work: no torture just like that yes lol
    The quintessence of this thesis is the lines of A. S. Pushkin, who wrote:
    “Russia was assigned a high mission ... Its boundless plains absorbed the power of the Mongols and stopped their invasion on the very edge of Europe; the barbarians did not dare to leave enslaved Rus behind them and returned to the steppes of their east. The resulting education was saved by the torn and dying Russia. ”


    It’s very beautiful and pathos, just imagine: the brutal “northern barbarians” selflessly “dying out” so that German youths have the opportunity to study at universities, while Italian and Aquitaine girls sigh languidly, listening to the ballads of the Truvers.

    That’s a disaster, and there’s nothing to be done: our destination is so “high”, it is necessary to comply [/ b]. It is only strange that the ungrateful Europeans strove at every opportunity to defend Russia from their last strength with a sword or spear in the back.


    WHERE does Pushkin have about ... and the need to "match"? belay Russia’s mission is to save the world, which it has done throughout its existence. The poet wrote about this.
    .
    Even in the previously unified Rurikovich dynasty, only Monomashichi, who split into two branches and were at enmity between themselves, were of importance now: the elders controlled the north-eastern principalities, the younger - the southern. Polotsk has long stood out as a separate principality. The policy of the Novgorod authorities was also far from all-Russian interests.

    Indeed, in the second half of the XII century, discord and contradictions between the Russian princes reached their climax

    All of Europe went the same way: fragmentation, discord, then centralization.

    To consider conquerors ... guardians of identity is very intricate.

    There is a very textbook example of such "protection": the Roman emperor Trajan conquered Dacia in the terrible bloody struggle of the Dacians for freedom. Moreover, he personally cut off the head of the Dacian leader Decebalu.

    Today, the actual descendants of the Dacians consider themselves the descendants of ... the Romans, and in the capital of Moldova the avenue named after the executioner Troyan smoothly turns into the avenue named after ... his victim Decebal. "Protected" yes ....
    1. VLR
      9 November 2019 08: 22
      +11
      1. Yoke - for working in a pair of two horses, or oxen, and not a plowman and a horse. That is, the first historians had in mind, most likely, that the Horde khans forced the Russian princes to "pull the cart" in one direction. For purely pragmatic reasons, of course, not altruistic or ideological. Later, the "intellectuals" historians, cut off from the people, forgot the meaning of the word. Therefore, Lev Gumilyov, for example, when he was called an intellectual, answered: "I am not an intellectual, God forbid, I have a profession."
      2. But Russia does not need to "save the world", as long as you can burn yourself.
      3. But this is a vivid example of the West European and Mongol conquest. The Romans at the Dacians destroyed the elite, culture, traditions, folk memory. All replaced and replaced. But in Russia, the opposite is true: not the Russians gotten away, but many Tatars are Russified. Karamzins, Turgenevs, Kutuzovs, Sheremetyevs and so on. And the former metropolises were later included in the former colony, retaining their aristocracy - the former khans, beks, murzes were not destroyed or repressed, they entered the establishment of the emerging empire. And the Tatars, as an ethnos, survived. They were not forcibly baptized and assimilated.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 9 November 2019 09: 38
        -3
        Quote: VlR
        Igo - to work in a pair of two horses, or oxen, and not a plowman and a horse.

        You, defining the "yoke", wrote:
        That is, there is little good in this device for the one they put it on, but nevertheless it is not intended for bullying and torture, and to work in pairs
        And since one ox cannot torture another, a pair of "man-ox" arose
        Quote: VlR
        But Russia does not need to "save the world", as long as you can burn yourself.

        Theoretically .. But in reality it turns out: "Nobody except us!"
        Quote: VlR
        The Romans at the Dacians destroyed the elite, culture, traditions, folk memory. All replaced and replaced.

        The fact of the matter is that they did not replace, but were entwined into a strange (for a logically minded person) at the same time grateful veneration by descendants and the invader and .... his victims recourse
        Quote: VlR
        But in Russia, the opposite is true: not the Russians gotten away, but many Tatars are Russified.

        A categorical statement: in my opinion. Yes, many Tatars became Russified, but the Russians, in turn, to some extent "otatarized" (which is nothing wrong). There can be no one-sided influence
        Quote: VlR
        the former khans, beks, and murzes were not destroyed or repressed; they entered the establishment of the emerging empire. And the Tatars, as an ethnos, survived. They were not forcibly baptized and assimilated.

        And this, I think, is the uniqueness and peculiarity of Russia (after all, the same thing happened with the Caucasian leaders and the Central Asian khans, etc.)
        All world history is replete with just the opposite examples ... hi
      2. ver_
        ver_ 9 November 2019 16: 23
        +3
        ... excuse me - the yoke is somewhat wrong ... they put a yoke on the bull - and plowed on the bulls because the bull is heavier and * pull * than the horse ... Remember * the raised virgin snow * Sholokhov .. The horse of the Cossack is for military service ..
      3. Ehanatone
        Ehanatone 10 November 2019 22: 29
        +2
        "And the Tatars, as an ethnos, survived. They were not forcibly baptized and assimilated."
        Pretty controversial:
        Tatars, as the tribe was destroyed even by Genghis Khan, the Bulgars were and remain in Tatarstan, but they cannot decide on their self-name!
        1. ver_
          ver_ 11 November 2019 16: 23
          +1
          ... abcheto, Tatar, Khazarin, Khozak, Cossack ..- this is not a nation and not a nationality - this is just an equestrian warrior, but in the plural - cavalry, equestrian detachment ...
    2. Usher
      Usher 9 November 2019 09: 09
      -2
      Some examples of your curves.
  4. mark1
    mark1 9 November 2019 08: 22
    0
    And now an extremely interesting question: was the Mongol invasion of Russia inevitable? Or is it a consequence of a chain of events, removing any of which could be avoided "close acquaintance" with the Mongols?

    Probably, if Temuchin had been killed at the beginning of his "glorious" affairs.
  5. kalibr
    kalibr 9 November 2019 08: 40
    -1
    Valery! No nitpicking. You are well done. Just great!
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 9 November 2019 16: 06
      +3
      Vyacheslav, I do not want to kick the author in any way, I liked his previous cycle, but why is it done? Why in a popular article an excursion into the history of the issue takes a third of the material, isn't it too much? A whole passage about Kalmyks to refute one aspect of one marginal theory, again not too much?
      And most importantly, where is the detailed presentation of the author's position? Why is it all the same? In conclusion, instead, a seed and a question for the next article in the cycle. Instead of the "Napoleon" cake, we are given, at best, a charlotte and praised. Where's the justice)?
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 9 November 2019 16: 14
        -1
        Ahh, Denis! Here it is. I am always very specific about articles - I myself write these. And ... for me, well-badly defined very ... subjectively. I am generally a terribly subjective person. Therefore, the main thing for me is whether I like it or not. I like it - well done. I do not like it - not well done. Stem that what you wrote, I basically agree. But ... I still like it. So - well done!
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 9 November 2019 16: 18
          +3
          The idea is clear.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 November 2019 20: 31
            +3
            Dear Denis! I will stand up for Valery. We do not know the author’s intentions and the final volume of his work, so that “a third of the present article” may be the thirtieth part conceived! The opus about Kalmyks is important, this is an almost four year old debate on the branch of the history of VO! Therefore, "an important spoon for dinner." Regarding the "marginal theory" - you aptly noticed, but how close and sweet it is to many forum users, and this is a bell .....
            Regards, Vlad!
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 9 November 2019 22: 45
              +2
              OK. Unfortunately, there is no discussion with the author. Although sometimes Valery is involved in them
  6. Nycomed
    Nycomed 9 November 2019 08: 41
    0
    Thank! Very interesting, I look forward to continuing!
  7. tlauicol
    tlauicol 9 November 2019 08: 44
    0
    Good syllable, great article clear and easy to read
  8. Bar2
    Bar2 9 November 2019 08: 54
    -4
    Quote: VlR
    Well, what are you, where did you see any evidence in the poems of Voloshin and Gumilyov?


    Well, I’ll bring here Bruce’s poems, which is also an interesting point of view and makes you think.

    Or we are that great nation
    Whose name will not be forgotten
    Whose speech still sings
    Consonant with the tune of Sanskrit?

    http://www.sbornik-stihov.ru/valeriybrusov243.html
  9. Bar2
    Bar2 9 November 2019 08: 56
    -5
    Quote: McAr
    In short, no one has really approached the topic of the "Tatar-Mongol yoke" yet.

    you didn’t approach it, with the Tataromongols long ago everything is clear who it is and what it was and who is behind the concealment of historical truth.
    1. ver_
      ver_ 9 November 2019 16: 58
      0
      ... with this * public * you will not find understanding - these are * faithful Leninists * - they are all God's dew ..
  10. Usher
    Usher 9 November 2019 09: 03
    -7
    Great article! Respect and respect! Like they took it off the tongue. As soon as the srach begins, now the hamsters will be filled with fomenkovod and iztorigami. For whom the story is a fantasy book "Three from the Forest".
  11. Korsar4
    Korsar4 9 November 2019 09: 04
    +3
    Selection of traditional plots. And it’s naive to assume that a magician will pull a universal answer out of a hat.

    Perhaps the main highlight is the relocation of Kalmyks. It’s quite an argument.

    And on the topic already on the portal they spoke-spoke. Up to soaking images.
    Will there be a new facet in the discussion - let's see.
  12. Bar2
    Bar2 9 November 2019 09: 18
    -8
    The “dusty campaign” of Kalmyks


    about the Kalmyks is a separate and big topic.
    Who are these Kalmyks?
    Now it is a small nation, less than 200 thousand people. 2010 census According to the census of the Republic of Ingushetia in 1897, there were 127 thousand Kalmyks. If you project this demographic dynamics down, how many Kalmyks were there by the beginning of the 19th century? Yes, probably there wasn’t at all. But this people always had a very long history. For example, the Kalmyks bravely fought with the Napoleons in the war of 1812. If you look at the old maps of the late 18th century, we see that the Kalmyks occupied the vast areas of present-day Kazakhstan along with the Cossack hordes.



    Kalmyks during the war of 1812



    or such Kalmyks
    this is generally a late image, because the photograph is already closer to the 20th century. We can see quite a white person.

  13. Bar2
    Bar2 9 November 2019 09: 20
    -8
    Quote: Usher
    What are you talking about? These are unknown lands in the view of Europeans. What did you come up with about Daria? Typical Fomenovod.

    I have evidence, and you have a gnashing of teeth.
  14. Edward Vashchenko
    Edward Vashchenko 9 November 2019 09: 26
    +5
    I will make adjustments to the work of a respected author,
    The Mongol-Tatar yoke is undoubtedly a scientific one, and not a term from sources, like Byzantium - there was no such state, feudalism - that was not called this institution, and "yoke" is a Latin term. But it does not change anything.
    What was it called in Russia, at the beginning of the study of this phenomenon? Here are a few works of the early nineteenth century. Richter A. Something about the influence of the Mongols and Tatars on Russia. SPB., 1822., Naumov P. About the attitude of the Russian princes to the Mongol and Tatar khans from 1224 to 1480 year. SPb., 1823., Bernhoff A. Russia under the yoke of the Tatars. Riga. 1830. Etc.
    The question of the exaggerated influence of the yoke or what it was at all is another question in Russian and Soviet historiography, but the use of the term "Tatar-Mongol yoke" is scientifically sound.
    Best regards hi
    1. Nikolai Korovin
      Nikolai Korovin 9 November 2019 20: 42
      0
      How is feudalism not called feudalism? The possession of a feudal lord is a "feud". Well. "ism" then attached.
  15. Bar2
    Bar2 9 November 2019 09: 49
    -4
    Quote: McAr
    This is a page scan from the 1771 British Encyclopedia:

    the client itself ...
  16. Operator
    Operator 9 November 2019 10: 44
    +6
    Quote: Olgovich
    descendants of the Dacians consider themselves descendants ... Romans

    After the Dacian genocide, the Romans routinely organized a massive relocation of the excess population from the Apennine Peninsula to the deserted territory.

    As a result, the majority of the population of modern Romania are the descendants of not the Dacians, but the Romans, they speak a dialect of the Latin language and outwardly differ from their neighbors both from the Slavs and from the Balkans (Greeks and Albanians).

    So the street of Bucharest, named after the Roman emperor, is historically justified, but the street named after the Dacian leader is not.
    1. Karen
      Karen 9 November 2019 16: 03
      -1
      The Operator and Olgovich have incomplete information on the population of Romania ... After the fall of our Ani kingdom, the Bagratids - 200000 of its population moved to Romania (though, of which 50000 went further to Poland) ... Accordingly ... you can find out from the arithmetic mean how many Armenoids are there now ... Of the most famous immigrants and their descendants are the Great Sovereign Ivan Lyuty (Grozny) and a contemporary who for 20 years has refused the prime minister’s post (sometimes he agrees with the Minister of Finance)
      1. Operator
        Operator 9 November 2019 18: 00
        +6
        Through the territory of Romania since 12 millennium BC many different migrants passed - Aryans, Celts, Scythians, Slavs, Huns, Goths, Avars, Bulgar, Pechenegs, Khazars, Polovtsy, etc. It is possible that migrants from the former Ani kingdom passed through Romania in the 11 century.

        But the main population of Romania (as well as the Peloponnese and Thrace) after the ice age were the Hamites, and after the Roman genocide of the Dacians in the 2 century - colonists from the Apennines.
        1. karabass
          karabass 9 November 2019 19: 14
          0
          true and concise - great comment
      2. Nikolai Korovin
        Nikolai Korovin 9 November 2019 20: 46
        0
        Trayasku Romania Mare! - Well, pure Latin. And now the Romanians consider themselves descendants of the Romans. Probably with more reason than current Italians. Even 150 Armenians here probably didn’t do the weather. But the fighting qualities since Roman times have declined.
        1. Karen
          Karen 10 November 2019 16: 51
          -2
          Quote: Nikolai Korovin
          Even 150 Armenians here probably didn’t do the weather.

          Dalali, as far as possible ... And in the organization of resistance to the Turks, and in the matter of joining Bessarabia to the Republic of Ingushetia ...
  17. Sertorius
    Sertorius 9 November 2019 11: 49
    -1
    Very good work. If not for the abuse of poetry, I would say - excellent. However, the author has the right. I look forward to a new job with interest.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 9 November 2019 12: 05
      +3
      Interestingly, but what verses did not please?

      An interesting recipe to bring:
      Poems - up to 5% of the article.
      Pictures - up to 25%.

      What ratio is required for the "golden ratio"?

      For me, interspersing verses by A.K. Tolstoy is good in every dish.
  18. Engineer
    Engineer 9 November 2019 12: 00
    0
    I read the article not without interest. First of all, in connection with the mention of Lev Nikolaevich to whom I have a difficult, to put it mildly, attitude.
    Forced Union

    All the same, alliance
    The author's opinion in the article is very small. Abstracts are not developed. I’ll write about the evidence of the union below, but their cat wept.
    A lengthy passage about the Kalmyks serves as a criticism of just one aspect of the "anti-Mongol theory" Maybe it would be better without him at all? And more of the author's point of view?

    For quite a long time, there were few who wanted to fight the Tatars, they were also afraid to attack their tributaries. It is known that in the 1269 year, upon learning of the arrival of the Tatar detachment in Novgorod, the assembled were on a campaign “the Germans made peace according to the will of Novgorod, fearing the name of the Tatar too.”


    The onslaught of the western neighbors, of course, continued, but now the Russian principalities had an ally overlord.

    The favorite lines of the late Gumilyov with which he proved the "symbiosis" of Russians and Tatars are given. The uniqueness of such evidence and controversy, and controversy because the reaction of the Germans was cited from the words of the Novgorodians without attempting to analyze German sources, Lev Nikolaevich was not embarrassed. He cheerfully dragged it from book to book, even unnecessarily, simply by popularizing the thesis.
    The thesis itself seemed ridiculous to me even at school. How did the "symbiosis" prevent the Lithuanians from taking possession of the Russian lands?
    I recall the facts.
    1324 Gediminas invades Kiev. The Grand Duke of Lithuania recognizes the suzerainty of the Horde and places the prince.
    The horde, then at the top of power and stability (the rule of Uzbekistan) looks at it indifferently. Is this a union of the Horde and Russia, even if it is not an equal?
    Let's deal with the other participants of the onslaught, the Germans
    Conflicts with German orders of knighthood existed even before the Mongols. Conflicts were sporadic and at times the onslaught was reversed - the Battle of Rakovor. The main rival of the knightly orders was ON. Where is the "protective" role of the Horde?
    In general, even without a very deep study of the history of the issue, it is clear that the Russian principalities in the 13th century, and without the Mongols, may well stand up for themselves. Lithuania is still fragmented and weak, the orders are fragmented and weak as well. Nevsky and Dovmont won victories without the help of the "suzerain". But for internal showdowns to involve the Horde is very even. But how did this differ from the practice of driving the same Polovtsy? So that now it was necessary not only to bargain, but also to humiliate ourselves?
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 9 November 2019 12: 15
      +3
      What do you think, and maybe an intermediate position between "union" and "yoke"?
      The position of the "little brother" from whom some of the resources are being taken away?

      Although the number of abandoned cities and the decline of crafts is still closer to the traditional presentation of events.

      Another thing is that what seems painful to us could be more calmly perceived at one time.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 9 November 2019 12: 19
        +3
        Vassality, no?
        But let's not call it a union only. Just out of respect for grandma's story.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 9 November 2019 12: 22
          +2
          Something similar to. The same insulting letters to Khorezm with similar turns.

          Another thing is that the forms of vassality can be very different.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 9 November 2019 12: 28
            0
            Unfortunately, our ancestors got in bad shape. Well, they tried to make it worse.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 9 November 2019 12: 33
              -2
              The struggle for the shortcut does not teach good.

              "What a day,
              Then brother to brother
              It brings izvet to the horde "(c).

              And here is the question of strategy - when does it make sense to resist, when it is easier to accept dependence.

              But you can’t model it - there are too many factors.
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 9 November 2019 12: 37
                +1
                From the point of view of common sense, we very often chose the worst solutions. But not everything in this life is measured by common sense.
      2. karabass
        karabass 9 November 2019 19: 32
        -5
        Yes, forget YOU already this nonsense And also the storytellers Gumilyov, Fomenko, etc. Just simply removing what historians don’t know (the Mongols didn’t have a written language), transpose to the present and vice versa - and imagine: Aliens captured Russia: you were robbed, your parents were killed, your children were taken into slavery, your wife was raped when they wanted, everyone was burnt, everyone who resents - kill without a conversation. It’s beingness. And then, the next generation adapted - this is the future. And call it what you want. Igo union vassality symbiosis, but whatever you want it doesn’t change the essence.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 9 November 2019 21: 33
          0
          Picture of "War of the Worlds" by Wells. Only tougher, because you try on our ancestors.
          1. karabass
            karabass 10 November 2019 12: 39
            -1
            Why, it was so. Therefore, I think it is necessary to remember without embellishment and not to listen to naive fools so as not to be repeated
    2. Nikolai Korovin
      Nikolai Korovin 9 November 2019 20: 50
      +1
      Divide and rule. I forgot how it is in Latin, and I did not know, in fact. Given the relatively very small resources of the Horde, it lasted extremely long. On this principle. And, although not without friction, it joined Russia under Ivan IV (Grozny). Who is Simeon Bekbulatovich?
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 10 November 2019 21: 33
        0
        Divide et impera.
  19. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 9 November 2019 12: 02
    +2
    Gumilyov’s ideas in the author’s brain live and win. smile
    I will not touch on poetic quotes - they, of course, cannot be arguments in such a dispute.
    Regarding the role of princes Yaroslav, Alexander and Andrew - they can not be compared. All three acted in different conditions and their tasks were different.
    Calling Yaroslav a collaborator is stupid and wrong, he acted in accordance with the political realities of his time in the interests of his land. A series of my articles on this character has been published on VO, and anyone can read it. There is, including about the actions of Yaroslav in the period from 1237 to 1245. - in detail, repeating does not make sense. The hypothetical denunciation of Yaroslav to Mikhail Chernigovsky is hardly a slander. There is not a single fact in the sources that could even indirectly testify to this, and the Mongols had more than enough reasons to execute Michael without any denunciations. There is also an article on Mikhail about Mikhail, very detailed.
    Alexander continued the policy, the vector of which was set by his father. Having assumed vassal obligations with respect to the khan, the Russian princes strictly followed them, and Alexander, as before his uncle, and after that his brothers, nephews and children was no exception.
    As for Andrei, he acted in slightly different conditions, I mean the split and civil strife in the Horde, as a result of which the Russian princes, in accordance with their political interests, also split into two parties, supporting one or the other side. The side that Andrey supported was the winner.
    Regarding the concept of "yoke" - yes, the term is exclusively cabinet. More correctly - the period of Rust's vassal dependence on the Horde, and modern researchers have not used the term "yoke" otherwise.
    Regarding the Mongols, the author never spoke of the absence of the Mongols in Russia, always claiming that there were Mongols, but there were few of them, compared to the rest. I can agree with that. The Mongol empire included all the conquered peoples, forming from them new military contingents, which were commanded to the indigenous Mongols. At one time, I really liked the comparison of any invasion of the steppe with a snowball, which while rolling in the snow, growing, but as soon as it rolls onto the asphalt, it begins to decrease. So is the invasion - while the steppe peoples are expanding, the army grows at the expense of the conquered, as soon as the invasion enters the zone of settled peoples, the army melts.
    About Fomenkovsky nonsense, which is now again actively began to be broadcast by some figures,
    I don’t even want to talk. All these Tartaria and other nonsense have already been discussed here several times, those who promoted it have repeatedly dipped into their own allocations, including with my direct participation, to repeat reluctance once written-rewritten.
    I recommend Bar 2 and its followers to return to discussions a year or more ago, everything about them and their arguments is said and described in detail. Who cares - find the 1 Bar user profile and enjoy. smile
    I appreciated the author’s approach regarding the Kalmyks. Really good. good
    My eldest son is now married to a purebred Kalmyk woman, we communicate with relatives. Itself, the truth did not go to them, but those with whom I could communicate here are apparently pure Mongols. This is in the XXI century. So the photographs of some Caucasian Kalmyks their authors and publishers can turn into a tube and gently shove yourself ... where it fits, even in your pocket. smile
    In principle, Valery, for me, your article deserves the same volume of the article with critical comments and analysis of some passages. I walked so short, and it turned out so much text. If it works out, today I will unsubscribe.
    1. Sertorius
      Sertorius 9 November 2019 12: 31
      +3
      A series of my articles on this character has been published on VO
      Yes. The series about Yaroslav was strong. I want to ask you a question as a specialist on the topic. The episode of this article about the drive by Alexander Nevsky of Nevruy to Russia against his brother - where does this bike come from? Nevruyev’s army is understandable. The message in the article is as if Alexander almost participated in it.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 9 November 2019 12: 53
        +2
        Where the origins of this story do not take
        Here is Khrapchevsky’s abstract on his own article.
        The main reason for the invasion in the article is the refusal to conduct a census.
        https://khrapachevsky.livejournal.com/16514.html
    2. karabass
      karabass 9 November 2019 19: 36
      -2
      If Hitler had won, now Vlasov would have been a "saint", and centuries later, our descendants, like you, also wrote that it is impossible to judge him from our time, before everything was different, etc., etc.
  20. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 9 November 2019 12: 24
    +1
    There was a vast empire of Genghisides founded by the Mongols.
    And there were scattered Russian principalities conquered by the Mongol-Tatars.
    They entered the empire as vassal states.
    Empire collapsed. The Russian principalities were gradually liberated.
    And united under the leadership of Moscow.
    Why break spears? recourse
    1. Nikolai Korovin
      Nikolai Korovin 9 November 2019 20: 53
      -1
      There are many who wish to challenge the undeniable facts. The arguments are extracted ... I would not say that from grandmother's chests. Well, you know where.
  21. colotun
    colotun 9 November 2019 12: 31
    -2
    The fourth century AD - Attila conquers Western Europe. Atilla's banners depict an equilateral cross and a golden double-headed eagle.
    The twelfth century AD - Genghis Khan and Batu conquer Western Europe.
    The historical emblem of the Golden Horde is a golden double-headed eagle (only without three crowns). Also, the golden double-headed eagle is the family coat of arms of Genghis Khan.
    The Russian Empire was created from the East, and not from the West.
    What did the specific Russian princes do during the period of feudal fragmentation in Russia (11-12 centuries)?
    They slaughtered each other in the struggle for power, ruthlessly ruining the neighboring lands and Russian cities.
    When the Mongol-Tatars united them, they forbade them to fight with each other, told them: "You are now one country, one people." And after a few generations, the Russian people in Central Russia stopped considering their neighbors as enemies.
    In Ivan the Terrible, the blood of the Rurikovich and the khans of the Golden Horde (through his mother, Elena Glinskaya) was combined, and this explosive incendiary mixture splashed out in the form of a passionary union of the three pillars of Russian statehood - the union of Slavs, Turks and Finno-Ugrians = the Moscow, Vladimir, Suzdal principalities were united , Novgorod and the Golden Horde = Great Empire revived in a new guise again.
    Orthodox prayer ends with the word AMEN, Catholic prayer ends with the word OMEN, Muslim prayer ends with the word EMEN. Also known is the Indian Buddhist mantra OM-MAN.
    And there is the Turkic word AMAN = have mercy and mercy. And these are not the only traces of the Turkic origin of the Christian faith (reference to Academician Oparin).
    And there was also a great medieval empire that conquered including China (QIN dynasty = Golden Dynasty) and India (Great Mughals).
    It is interesting that approximately within the borders of the former Soviet Union there were five empires: - the first empire was at Attila (4-5 century AD), the second empire was at Genghis Khan (11-12 century AD), the third empire was the Romanovs, the fourth empire is the Soviet Union and the fifth empire is the Russian Federation now.
    The Russian nation came from the merger of three different nations - Slavs, Turks (including Tatars) and Finno-Ugrians.
    And for one and a half thousand years on the territory of our great united country people of different nationalities live, as one people.
    1. karabass
      karabass 9 November 2019 20: 07
      0
      Well said! I allow myself to cling to your comment and add - not from three different nations, but from more than 180 different nations, our nation grew up, some traces still remain - Chigiri, Chigi, Berendei, Chud, Mokshi, Cheremis (Mordva) and many others
      Best regards
    2. Nikolai Korovin
      Nikolai Korovin 9 November 2019 21: 03
      +1
      Suppose Attila took over the entire future socialist camp and stopped (not of his own free will) only in the north of France. For which the Emperor Valentinian executed Aetius. The consequences were not long in coming. Probably, Aetius could cope with vandals, we would not have a wonderful word "vandalism".
    3. Sunstorm
      Sunstorm 9 November 2019 22: 31
      0
      1) why did Atilla live in the fourth century ... if in the fifth ... though he is MacLeod ... in the sense there should be only one ... (sarcasm)
      2) Have you seen the banners of Atilla of the 5th century AD? Do not carry nonsense. Can you tell us more about the Atilla rowing? (sarcasm)
      3) Chingiz and Batu together .... hmm, I'm not even trying to understand this ... "grandfather and grandson took and rushed off ... on a great trip ..." how many thousands of kilometers in the saddle ...? it doesn't matter, it's important that together, like a real family ... (sarcasm)
      4) what did the Russian princes do? The same as the French dukes and counts ...- feudal feuds.
      5) and the Normans took and united England ... so even the Polovtsians were not considered enemies .. by the way, they often contracted marriages, they often went on campaigns together .... why did you decide that the "Tatars" were considered enemies? And just do what is the essence of your "enemy"?
      6) Glinsky, by the way ... comes out of Belarus (or ON) and the Horde was there .... well, ok (although I heard about her Serbian roots .. I heard about Lithuanian .. about Tatar .. for the first time)

      All that is further down the text ... this is apparently a veiled call to the doctor ...
      In general, what was it?
      Quote: colotun
      The fourth century AD - Attila conquers Western Europe. Atilla's banners depict an equilateral cross and a golden double-headed eagle.
      The twelfth century AD - Genghis Khan and Batu conquer Western Europe.
      The historical emblem of the Golden Horde is a golden double-headed eagle (only without three crowns). Also, the golden double-headed eagle is the family coat of arms of Genghis Khan.
      The Russian Empire was created from the East, and not from the West.
      What did the specific Russian princes do during the period of feudal fragmentation in Russia (11-12 centuries)?
      They slaughtered each other in the struggle for power, ruthlessly ruining the neighboring lands and Russian cities.
    4. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 9 November 2019 22: 43
      +1
      "And there is also the Türkic word AMAN = have mercy, have mercy. And these are not the only traces of the Türkic origin of the Christian faith" ////
      ----
      There is also AMEN - in Hebrew. And these are not the only traces of Jewish origin
      christian faith wink The Gospel, for example ... smile
      Without thinking of the achievements of the Turkic peoples drinks
      1. colotun
        colotun 12 November 2019 15: 43
        0
        Jews descended from the Khazars = this Tatar = Turkic tribe, which adopted the Jewish = Jewish faith.
        Accordingly, the Hebrew = ancient Khazar word AMEN = this is AMAN
        As for the allegedly Jewish origin of the Christian faith = this is another historical GESHEFT = self-registration of something that has never happened.
        Obviously, the Jews in Israel are not Christians.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 12 November 2019 16: 26
          -3
          "a Turkic tribe that adopted the Jewish = Jewish faith." ////
          ----
          This is absolutely true. The Jewish faith in antiquity was not only accepted
          Turkic tribes. But also Canaanite (about a thousand years before Christmas
          Christ), Berber, Arab tribes.
          Of course, Judaism itself took a lot from the Sumerian and ancient Egyptian religions.
          2nd millennium BC
          With respect to all the glorious Turkic and Slavic peoples drinks
          1. colotun
            colotun 13 November 2019 16: 29
            +2
            Judging by your photo on the profile picture, you, dear, are not ASHKENAZI = blue-eyed blond, a descendant of the Phoenicians from Carthage and Tire, but you are a typical descendant of KhAZAR = a brunette of the Turkic type. And you are clearly not a Christian.
            1. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 13 November 2019 16: 55
              -3
              On the profile picture is not my photo at all. laughing
              I'm just a tall blue-eyed brown-haired man. But this is not from the Phoenicians from Carthage, but from my late dad, who had harsh northern roots.
              However, Christianity is a purely Hebrew invention from the Roman province of Judea. Which liked the Greeks and Romans. I respect Jesus Christ and its philosophy, although not a Christian. And not a Judaist either.
              Christianity, like Judaism, has nothing to do with respected Turks.
              But the Genghisides Empire or the Ottoman Empire - have the most direct. good
  22. Bar2
    Bar2 9 November 2019 12: 46
    -7
    Quote: HanTengri
    What kind of Daria-Marya? Amu Daryo and Syrdaryo, actually. Moreover, the word "daryo" is translated from both Farsi and Türkic, just like a RIVER.


    not dude .not in all Farsi and not in all Turkic
    River
    -Ozone in Kazakh
    -elga -Tatar
    -Henir -Turkish
    those. the youngest Turkic languages ​​are Uzbek and Kyrgyz, there is a Daria river. But this is most likely the Bolsheviks-the Jews wrote to them like that.

    Quote: HanTengri
    I will give you another idea: Tashkent, ParkKent, ChimKent, GazalKent, KhodzhiKent, etc., and there are no numbers of them => Almost all of Central Asia used to be part of the English county of Kent. Think about it



    I have long known that there is a Kant city in Kyrgyzstan, I myself come from there.
    What do you want to show the absurdity of such Turkic-English analogies?
    The British Isles are full of rivers with the names DON / DUN, near the county of Ross / Russia, so there are intersections of Turkic and English words
    -Say (Kirg) - place
    -Site (eng) -place
    -Orda (Turs) -state / administration / land
    -Earth (yoof-eng) -orda - land

    I can throw more.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 9 November 2019 13: 02
      +2
      And will we draw a gray fox in Chinese?
  23. Kenxnumx
    Kenxnumx 9 November 2019 13: 17
    +5
    The concept of homeland and patriotism a little later appeared than commodity-money relations. For Nevsky, his own brother was much more unpleasant than Nevruy Kartag. And Christian neighbors from the West brought more losses than the Basurman with whom he did business.
    1. Nikolai Korovin
      Nikolai Korovin 9 November 2019 21: 05
      +1
      Fallout. "A word about Igor's regiment" - about commodity-money relations? Oh, yes, this is a falsification of the late XNUMXth century.
      1. Kenxnumx
        Kenxnumx 9 November 2019 22: 21
        0
        And where does the word about the regiment come in handy. It is known that the Russian princes were not only related to the Polovtsy, but also participated in their campaigns. If an inappropriately lost manuscript was what we know, then this is only one of the episodes.
        1. 1970mk
          1970mk 10 November 2019 11: 56
          0
          The manuscript was lost just by the way - no one saw it in her eyes, except those interested in promoting people. In my opinion, there could be no manuscript at all. The explanation is simple - under Peter 1, when he needed the history of the Empire (after all, the empire should have a history), all monasteries and "libraries" were ordered to scour .. I doubt that the Peter's decree was poorly executed .. And what was reported to the king? THERE IS NOTHING! And the invited German went to compose the history of Russia according to Myths and fables.
  24. 1970mk
    1970mk 10 November 2019 11: 39
    +1
    Yeah ..... The image of St. Alexander Nevsky simply amazes with its holiness in the defense of Russia. When I was little on the Neva I took part in a skirmish, usual for those years ... Then, again in my youth, I took part in the so-called Battle of the Ice (a common skirmish on the border). ALL! The great defender no longer defended Russia ..... in the Tatar wagon train during the Nevryuev invasion he sat and pointed out that Russia was to be "beaten". Well, we have holy heroes.
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 10 November 2019 15: 16
      -5
      Quote: 1970mk
      The image of St. Alexander Nevsky is simply amazing

      I can imagine how he will "shock" you if you learn a little more about him than is written in a school textbook for grade 4. For example, about the reflection of the Lithuanian raids, about the trip to the lands of the Tavasts ...
      And I would also like to ask about the Battle of Neva and the Battle of Ice - if this is such a routine, as you write, you probably will not be bothered to tell us about similar skirmishes that took place, well, for example, during the period from 1235 to 1250. Over fifteen years, they must accumulate a hefty amount.
      1. 1970mk
        1970mk 10 November 2019 15: 29
        +3
        You are funny ..... Literally a few months before this event (of the Ice type of battle), didn’t Alexand’s squad walk through their lands? Wasn't it like that? Ice, type, slaughter NOTHING! The battle of Rakov doesn’t tell you anything?
        And about the "Neva" ... losses are estimated from several dozen to several hundred people - that's the scale of it! By the way, can you tell me how long before this "Holy Defender" Novgorodians marched across Scandinavia with "fire and sword" while the Swedish capital was simply burned? This is the scope! The time was like that .... With the Teutons, you can at least talk about something, but about the "Nevskaya battle" nothing at all.
        By the way, you will justify this "Saint" ... sitting in the Tatar train ... when the "Rus protected by him" was raped ...
        Personality is generally mixed! He crawled out only due to the fact that the Tatars (as they were then called) had a label for a great reign begging their brother while throwing it.
        Found a saint))) Defender. Pskov prince Dovmont is much more holy as a defender ... And the princes who really PROTECTED their land from foreigners SEA! And they deserve much more than this "holy defender" of their personal interests and their Power.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 10 November 2019 16: 53
          -7
          Quote: 1970mk
          You are funny

          Where am I to you ...
          Quote: 1970mk
          Literally a few months before this event (of the Ice type of battle), didn’t the Aleksand’s squad walk through their lands? Wasn't it like that?

          Did not have. And I can’t even imagine where you could draw such nonsense from.
          Quote: 1970mk
          The battle of Rakov doesn’t tell you anything?

          He speaks, and I think, even more than you. But, unfortunately, this battle took place in 1268 and in the period from 1235 to 1250. does not fit.
          Quote: 1970mk
          in the usual skirmish for those years

          Quote: 1970mk
          ordinary skirmish at the border

          "Normal", in my understanding, means often repeated. Well, tell us where, when during the specified period there were such clashes and even in such an amount that they became "ordinary".
          Quote: 1970mk
          By the way, can you tell me how long before this "Holy Defender" Novgorodians marched across Scandinavia with "fire and sword" while the Swedish capital was simply burned?

          Novgorodians had no direct relation to the capture and plunder of Sigtuna half a century before the Nevsky — it was the work of hands exclusively of Karelians. Not in the Swedish chronicles, not in the Russian chronicles about the participation of Russians in the plunder of Sigtuna there is not a word. And where does the Sigtuna campaign? Type, show knowledge? Well, well, they showed ... laughing
          The significance of the Battle of Neva, despite its seemingly small scale, is that after it, for almost 60 years, the Swedes abandoned their attempts to gain a foothold in the eastern part of the Gulf of Finland.
          As for the role of Nevsky in the Nevruyev rati, there is an opinion that he was trying to prevent it, but to no avail. And so far no one has been able to refute this version with reason.
          Quote: 1970mk
          The personality is generally mixed!

          Your only comment that you can agree with. laughing
          1. 1970mk
            1970mk 11 November 2019 01: 58
            +2
            Not in Swedish chronicles, not in Russian chronicles

            To me it is similar to you violet ......
            Well, forgive me - what and where and when is it written about St. Alexander Nevsky? "Life"? How many years after death? Centuries? Or how much? What is there in the chronicles of those years? Name the source))) No? Only after a couple of hundred or three hundred years did it flood? Oh, how funny))))
            The essence. Announce where, when and specifically WHAT has been written about Alexander. Come on - I'll laugh. From how it has grown from what was written)))) And give the dating of this "writing".
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 11 November 2019 11: 03
              -4
              "Life", so you know, dates from the second half of the XNUMXth century, that is, immediately after Alexander's death, when many were still alive who knew him personally. Russian chronicles and Western chronicles also retained enough information about his activities - much more than, for example, about his father.
              Of course, you can jibble as much as you like, but this will not add either knowledge or intelligence to you, although you clearly need both. I, frankly, do not know what kind of "broadly" or "fomenko" you have read, but the very base of your historical knowledge is simply depressing, which gives rise to irresponsible and unsubstantiated statements on your part.
              I could give you a short course on the sources of historical knowledge about the XIII century, but first you yourself will try to somehow argue your own theses that you put your cakes on the road like a cow - about the "usual" armed clashes, about participation Novgorodians in the Sigtun campaign, about Alexander's sitting in the Tatar wagon train ... And it turns out that you write all sorts of nonsense, and I, like, have to refute it.
  25. dgonni
    dgonni 10 November 2019 18: 07
    0
    The author is handsome! Let him give one answer! Why are Ryazans still not fond of Mokshansky?
    If no one knows. That Ryazan resisted the horde until complete destruction. And moksha having fun with Suzdaltsi lay under the horde!
    1. Kenxnumx
      Kenxnumx 10 November 2019 19: 18
      +1
      Especially when you consider that modern Ryazan has little in common with the Ryazan, which fought with the Tatars
      1. Seal
        Seal 11 November 2019 13: 44
        +3
        Hmm, then you should have at least three Ryazan.
        One is old Ryazan. But it was ravaged by the Vladimir-Suzdal troops. In 1209, the city was stormed and burned by the troops of the Vladimir principality under the leadership of Prince Vsevolod Yuryevich the Big Nest, all the surviving inhabitants of the city were driven into a settlement in the Vladimir principality. That’s it, Razan’s over.
        True, they say that after the death of Vsevolod (1212) the Ryazan people were somehow released from the Suzdal land and they supposedly restored "Old Ryazan".
        But there is a version that the number of Ryazan residents is extremely small, who theoretically gradually returned from the Vladimir-Suzdal land, in sufficient numbers to "revive" something, they could gather well in 10 years, not less. That is, by 2012. And of course, they could not “revive” anything significant. At most, they could build a new small town in a new place, which was probably called Ryazan.
        That is, a certain "Batu" could have taken this particular town. Well, as you "know for sure", this Ryazan "Batu" also burned to the ground.
        So that modern Ryazan is the third Ryazan?
        1. Operator
          Operator 11 November 2019 14: 03
          +2
          After your comment, the trilobites were bombarded not childishly and there was a break in the "template" laughing
        2. Kenxnumx
          Kenxnumx 11 November 2019 18: 52
          -1
          It is known for sure that Pereyaslavl-Ryazan, which is the modern Ryazan Batu bypassed. And you that Suzdal’s have been taken away from untruth? You somehow breathe unevenly towards them
      2. dgonni
        dgonni 11 November 2019 19: 04
        +1
        Yes! This is called genetic memory. And if it is simpler then the situation was transmitted from the ancestors.
        1. Seal
          Seal 13 November 2019 10: 52
          +1
          Quote: dgonni
          This is called genetic memory.
          If there was "genetic memory" in your sense, then children would not stick their fingers into an electrical outlet. Already probably the tenth generation of people is electrocuted, and for some reason people still cannot develop the genetic memory for being electrocuted from the socket.
    2. alexey alexeyev_2
      alexey alexeyev_2 11 November 2019 16: 47
      +4
      Yes, for the same reason that the inhabitants of Kozelsk do not tolerate the inhabitants of the village of Pogankino. The Pogankins supplied the Tatars with grubs .. The Kozlyans did not take Pogankinsky girls after that for 300 years ...
  26. alexey alexeyev_2
    alexey alexeyev_2 11 November 2019 07: 20
    +1
    Hmm .. The historians themselves do not believe in a fairy tale (not very smart) about the Mongols .. And the activity of Nevsky is still waiting for its researcher. The churchmen licked him too much and combed his hair. There was a thief of a grabber. The Novgorodians more than once threw him out for free treatment of the treasury. .But the soldier was a noble and clever politician. Umyon .. I understood what the coming of the "collective west" threatens Russia and chose the lesser of two evils. And while reading the Russian chronicles, I did not notice any particular groaning and crying from an overwhelming yoke .. It goes on a usual life ... The "golden ring" is slowly being built. The analogy with our modernity is complete ... Except for taxes. If the khan was content with tithes, the current taxes consume almost a quarter of his earnings ..
  27. Seal
    Seal 11 November 2019 13: 25
    +4
    Getting everything necessary from pets: milk and meat for food, skins for clothes, wool for felt and ropes, moreover, making a lot of money both from the sale of these animals, as well as from the transportation of various weights in the desert, the nomad lives exclusively for your cattle leaving behind the care of himself and his family. Migration from place to place is considered exclusively with the benefits of parking for pets. If it’s good for the latter, that is, food is abundant and there is a watering hole, then the Mongol does not pretend to do anything else.

    Herding is the only and exclusive occupation of the Mongols. Their industry is the most insignificant and is limited only to the manufacture of certain items necessary in home life, such as: leather, felt, saddles, reins, bows; flint and knives are occasionally cooked.

    Of the customs of the Mongols, the traveler is struck by their habit of always navigating around the world, never using the words "right" or "left", as if these concepts do not exist for nomads. Even in a yurt, a Mongol will never say: “from the right” or “from the left hand”, but always “to the east” or “to the west” some thing lies from him. It should be noted that the front of the nomads is considered to be the south, but not the north, as the Europeans, so the east falls on the left, and not the right side of the horizon.
    The Mongols and Chinese living here have almost no weapons and, moreover, such poor hunters that they cannot kill argali, of course, not out of compassion for this animal, but simply out of inability. uh

    It is interesting about the "Zolotordynsky man at arms".
    Considering that "Mongols ride on short stirrups (regardless of the height of the rider feet do not fall below the horse’s stomach), the rider's center of gravity is slightly shifted back, when the knees are not pressed tightly in the saddle. In the quarry, they stand up on stirrups, fixing themselves with tightly pressed knees. The halter is held quite high (not lower than the upper third of the rider's abdomen) ". I believe that the" Golden Horde soldier "with his center of gravity would not have held out on a horse for 5 minutes. laughing
  28. swyatoslav
    swyatoslav 11 November 2019 18: 04
    +3
    The "reinforced concrete" argument, according to which the large Mongol army simply could not overcome such vast distances
    - in fact, the main argument is the absolute absence of Mongolian haplogroups among ethnic Russians.
    If the conquest, plunder and murder during the "Mongol-Tatar" invasion really took place, but the conquerors did not force (did not leave their genetic material) captured Russian women - then this is either an amazing, unique (in world history) phenomenon, or there were no "Mongol-Tatars" in Russia. Or maybe the women were hidden from the "Mongol-Tatars"? Everyone ....
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 11 November 2019 20: 12
      +1
      1. Why should they necessarily appear? Women were killed and driven to the Steppe. And those that remained meekly brought up "gifts" from the aliens? You have a funny opinion about the morals of that time.
      2. Mongolian haplogroups, in principle, could not be in commercial quantities. The estimated number of the Mongols proper in the campaign to Russia is 4 thousand people.
      1. swyatoslav
        swyatoslav 12 November 2019 09: 44
        +2
        1) because after the passage of any army across the conquered territory, there remains a plume of genetic traces - this is confirmed by scientists, sociologists and memoirs (annals);
        I refer you to the previously written comments (here) about robbery, murders and VIOLENCE in internal conflicts in Russia - everyone happily agreed with this when it came to Russian squads, and when I wrote the same thing about the "Mongol-Tatars", they immediately began to object ..... so hate the Russians or take yourself away from the "Mongol-Tatars"?
        2) really? okay, but here's the paradox, according to geneticists, in some states of Central Asia, a large proportion of the population with the haplogroup R1a, and where would it come from there? the administration of the Republic of Ingushetia tried to leave a mark in "commercial quantities"?
        in northern China (Gansu province), for example, there are 90 million R1a in general (70 million in Russia) - how does the official history explain this?
        I mean all this is that new data should be compared and options for their explanation should be considered, and not be dismissed indiscriminately, calling it "nonsense"!
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 12 November 2019 10: 13
          +1
          Michael answered in a detailed manner.
          I can add.
          The 1237-1238 campaign took place in winter. A "happy" woman alone or in the company of her friends, unfortunately, simply will not survive - supplies are plundered under a clean one, and there is nowhere to take new ones. Then, quite often at all times, such rapes ended in the murder of the victim. The most important thing is that if we assume that a group of people, including men, survived, escaping death and captivity, then where did you get the idea that they will bring up a Mongolian gift? I remind you that in the Middle Ages, even their children were taken to the forest in difficult years. And then imagine among the survivors 9 months later a Mongolian "hello" with a characteristic squint is born. The forest is the best thing that awaits him. The simplest thing is to head against the wall. People then were not tolerant.
          1. swyatoslav
            swyatoslav 12 November 2019 10: 37
            +2
            Again almost a script for drama .... what’s the contest for an artistic narrative?
            I am not a historian, but I read a lot and with interest. We often came across articles by highly respected specialists about the tolerance of ordinary Slavs to "unexpected replenishment" in the family.
            And if we discuss works of art, then Genghis Khan also had problems with this, but no one "beat his head against the wall" - he raised him like a family.
            And if you follow your logic, then for centuries Slavic women who were subjected to violence during raids by the steppes either cut themselves off completely or committed suicide - it is surprising how South Russia existed then ....
            And this is a problem not only of Russia, many (if not all) of the state survived the raids and conquests. And according to your logic - they should have sunk into oblivion.
            As for the lack of tolerance, this is exactly what I wrote about when mentioning violence in the conquered territories - a common thing. And yet, the people were very practical and the peasants did not have extra hands - any child was perceived as a future worker (as in any case, ethnographic researchers write, and this is just the logic).
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 12 November 2019 10: 48
              0
              Until the child grew he was a burden, not help.
              Genghis Khan recognized Jochi and Toluya so as not to lose face and, most importantly, not to quarrel with Borte's father, the leader of the Ungirates. This is a policy, not a household issue.
              Slavic women have indeed been abused for centuries. But according to anthropology data, the surviving offspring from such "unions" crowded together in the Steppe, and did not remain in Russia. This has been discussed previously. Conclusion is simple - women were driven to the Steppe or killed.
              1. Operator
                Operator 12 November 2019 11: 04
                +3
                Conquerors leave a significant mark in the gene pool of conquered peoples only when they are assimilated by occupying foreign territory - for example, the presence of 10-15% of the descendants of the newly arrived Aryans as part of modern Indians, most of them descendants of the local Dravids.

                The presence in the Russian 1% of the Mongol descendants (haplogroup С2) directly indicates not conquest and assimilation, but feudal vassalism and territorially fragmented settlement of Slavs and Mongol-Tatars.
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 12 November 2019 11: 06
                  +1
                  And this is consistent with the official historical point of view.
                2. swyatoslav
                  swyatoslav 12 November 2019 18: 53
                  +2
                  In order not to go far, I recommend that you turn to information about German children in the occupied territories after WWII. Only about the assimilation by Germany of all these territories, I also hear for the first time. But the traces of the occupation are evident.
                  And where did you get the data about 1%? For example, in my post I used the data of Professor A. Klesov.
                  Are these your 1% in which sample, in which territory, to which period does haplogroup C2 belong (modern or ancient)?
                  Share, do not consider it work, otherwise it is not entirely clear. Substitution of concepts is possible.
                  1. Operator
                    Operator 12 November 2019 19: 11
                    +2
                    According to Klesov, the number of carriers of the Mongolian haplogroup С2 among Belarusians is less than 1%, among Russians - 1%, among Ukrainians (meaning local Great Russians and Little Russians) - 1,5%.

                    All of them belong to the modern (AD) subclade of C2.

                    In the territory of the Russian Federation and Ukraine, isolated preglacial sites of primitive people - carriers of haplogroup C without the 2 index were found, but they all died out without leaving descendants.
                    1. swyatoslav
                      swyatoslav 12 November 2019 19: 25
                      +1
                      Perfectly!
                      All of them belong to the modern subclade C2

                      Perhaps you listened to the conclusions of Professor A. Klesov, made by him on the basis of research?
                      HE STATES (in the end) that there was no "Mongol-Tatar" invasion of Russia - this is precisely what the results of the work carried out testify to.
                      This is the conclusion of a globally recognized specialist. Do you seem to have an excellent opinion based on HIS works?
                      1. Operator
                        Operator 12 November 2019 19: 47
                        +2
                        I have read all of Klesov's articles on the Pereformat website and do not remember his words about the absence of the Mongol-Tatar invasion of Russia.

                        In addition, the invasion, by definition, is short-lived, and the so-called the yoke (more correctly - feudal vassalage) was distinguished by the separate residence of the Mongol-Tatars in the territory of the Dzhuchi ulus (Golden Horde) and the Russians in the territory of their principalities.

                        Plus, the custom of the Mongols to kill the women they raped (unless they drove them to the full), the biological feature of the female body at reproductive age (constant pregnancy from her husband in the absence of contraceptives and the rejection of the rapist's sperm) and the negative attitude of Russians towards children born of "nasty".

                        In addition, the number of Mongol-Tatars who came to the east of the European subcontinent was elementarily less than the number of Russians by two orders of magnitude.

                        Which in aggregate unambiguously correlates with the low specific gravity of C2 carriers as part of modern Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians.
                      2. swyatoslav
                        swyatoslav 12 November 2019 20: 16
                        +1
                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P06yL7NIjo8 - это one of many related videos (starting from 7 minutes). A. A. Klesov says that there are about 0,2% of Mongolian genes (statistical error) and the Russians do not have a Mongolian trace. Also, there is no Tatar trace in the Russian genotype. But the Tatars have Russian traces. And who, then, was in the "Mongol-Tatar" countless army? Not Mongols, not Tatars, but who? Can you find out the ethnic composition of the "Mongolian Tumens" and links to the sources of this knowledge?

                        I have already answered all other arguments to another opponent, I will not repeat myself. Read if interested.
                      3. Operator
                        Operator 12 November 2019 20: 52
                        +3
                        Suppose that the number of C2 carriers in modern Russians is 0,2% - this is the notorious Mongolian trace.

                        In Ryzhov’s articles on VO, quotations from medieval written sources are cited many times about the way the Mongols increase their mobility due to the involvement of troops of Turkic-speaking tribes in their vassal dependence. That is why the invasion is called Mongol-Tatar (Turkic in Old Russian).

                        Türkic-speaking tribes were motley - for example, the Kazan Tatars basically have Finno-Ugrians from Altai, Bashkirs - Asian Sarmatians assimilated by the Huns, Kyrgyz - Aryans assimilated by the Mongols, Crimean Tatars - northern Semites assimilated by the same Huns, etc.
                      4. swyatoslav
                        swyatoslav 13 November 2019 19: 49
                        +1
                        this is the notorious Mongolian track.
                        - if I correctly understood the explanations of Professor Klesov, then we are talking about C2 carriers that appeared on the territory of Russia in recent history - dating is easily determined.

                        As for the composition of the army, each scientist has his own conclusions. I heard different. And about the hinglotypes of genghisides, too (they give the results of tests for haplotypes from the burials of noble genghisides). And each of them is ready to give killer arguments - here who believes anyone ...
                        It is clear that many peoples took part in the campaign, as well as, for example, in the Hunnish campaign. On the other hand, not only Russians were present in the Russian regiments, but also representatives of many other clans and nationalities.
                        After all, what are the results of DNA genealogy interesting for? Y - the chromosome is transmitted ONLY from father to son. And if he has (for example) a haplorgupp R1a - that means for 5500 years, in his family there have never been men with another haplogroup!
                        Not Mongols, not Tatars, not Semites, not Turkic clans - nobody at all, for 5500 years ..
                        According to Klesov, ethnic Russians can be considered MONONATIONAL.
                      5. Operator
                        Operator 13 November 2019 20: 41
                        +2
                        Mono-ethnicity is when the carriers of the dominant haplogroup as part of the people are over 75%, for example, Yakuts (95% N1c1) or Irish (87% R1b).

                        In the composition of the Great Russians, Little Russians and Belarusians, the carriers of the dominant R1a are 50%, the rest are I1 and I2 (20%), N1c1 (15%), R1b (10%), etc.

                        A larger number of R1a carriers (55%) are available only among Poles, Kyrgyz, and Tajiks.

                        On the other hand, on the territory of the Central Black Earth Region of the Russian Federation, there is a world center of the highest concentration of R1a carriers - 95%.
              2. swyatoslav
                swyatoslav 12 November 2019 18: 46
                +3
                But according to anthropology, the surviving offspring from such "unions" crowded together in the Steppe, and did not remain in Russia
                - is it something new, have you confused the Russians with the Khazars? May indicate the source of information, read, even interesting.
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 12 November 2019 19: 02
                  +1
                  https://www.dissercat.com/content/naselenie-stepei-vostochnoi-evropy-ii-tysyacheletiya-po-dannym-kraniologii
                  I am reposting from the previous topic
                  conclusions of Mr. Komarov
                  1. For pre-Mongolian nomads, the territory of Ukraine (represented by a series of Pechenegs of the Dnieper region, from the burial grounds of the Dnipropetrovsk and Donetsk regions) was mainly characterized by a similar craniological complex, defined as mixed with a slight predominance of Caucasoid features compared to other nomadic groups.

                  2. The penetration of mixed groups of the South Siberian appearance (represented by a series of cemeteries in the Kharkiv region) in the steppes of Eastern Europe, in particular, into Ukraine, was recorded in pre-Mongol time.

                  3. The population that left the burial ground near the Khazar fortress Sarkel, as well as the Polovtsians (represented by a series of burial grounds of Kalmykia) showed more Mongoloid features in comparison with other groups of pre-Mongol nomads.

                  4. Most of the nomadic groups of the Golden Horde era are characterized by Mongoloid features or a significant predominance of Mongoloid features. Nomads mainly had the appearance characteristic of the South Siberian or Central Asian race.

                  5. In the mass of nomads of the Golden Horde there were also mixed groups with a noticeable predominance of the Caucasoid component that left the Kalinovsky burial ground and mounds in the Saratov region. The community in which the Caucasoid complex was most represented was the nomads of the Bukeevsky steppe.

                  6. The bulk of the settled population of the Golden Horde was characterized by mixed craniological complexes with different ratios of Caucasoid and Mongoloid elements.
                  1. swyatoslav
                    swyatoslav 12 November 2019 19: 20
                    +2
                    This is interesting, thanks, but where is the indication that the remains of Caucasians in the burial grounds are children of mixed marriages with the steppes?
                    There are a lot of reasons for being in the steppes of a Caucasian and mixed type. What does it have to do with children born as a result of violence by the steppes?
                    1. Engineer
                      Engineer 12 November 2019 19: 33
                      +1
                      This assumption is based on the fact that conditionally "purely" Caucasian women among the mixed population in the steppe burial grounds of that time are not uncommon. It is logical to assume that prisoners or slaves.
                      1. swyatoslav
                        swyatoslav 12 November 2019 19: 50
                        +2
                        Let's assume this is an option. But how is it related to the "clustering of children from mixed marriages" in the steppe?
                        The Russians also had captives from the steppe, and we can safely assume that their children were not uncommon, but what does this prove?
                        Probably you mean that in Russia there were and could not be (for some reason still unknown) children from mixed marriages? Or were they still there, but they were sent to the steppe?
                        You probably know that, according to many scientists, the Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans (part of the Khazars, at least too) were mostly with the haplogroup R1a or R1b and often had a Caucasian type? And their wives could be the same.
                        Maybe they are there? There are many options and the logic may be different.
                      2. Engineer
                        Engineer 12 November 2019 20: 04
                        +1
                        Do you want to argue or sort it out?
                        I gave a link to the anthropological composition of the steppe cemeteries .. The population is mixed. It’s NOT just mixed, it is a product of metalization; people combine both Mongoloid and Caucasoid features. This is direct evidence that offspring from mixed marriages were stacked in the Barrens. And no other way. And now let us recall the anthropology of the actual Russian lands, where is the Mongoloid element? Where are any extensive finds of burial grounds of people with mixed traits? So in the Russian lands of the era of the invasion, respectively, mixed offspring with Mongoloid features were NOT stacked. It existed, but did not concentrate, dissolving in a huge mass of local people.
                        And the security question is already from me. Do you argue that there was a Mongol-Tatar invasion? Or with what nations committed it?
                      3. swyatoslav
                        swyatoslav 12 November 2019 20: 36
                        +2
                        Metization can occur for various reasons. Certainly not only from slaves, captives and deported children from mixed marriages.
                        I was not going to argue with anyone. I published data on the absence of Mongolian genes in Russians, which cannot be the case in the case of the "Mongol-Tatar" invasion. Scientific fact.
                        Of course, someone fought with someone. Someone won and included part of the Russian principalities into the state, known also as the Golden Horde. And I think that the composition of the invasion army was multinational. But I do not recognize the term "Mongol-Tatar" invasion or yoke.
                        It is as if the commander of the troops was S. G. Shoigu, and the army under his command was called the Tuvan army.
                        Who were Genghisides by nationality - specialists still have to figure this out. And not by drawings, but by the remains - that will be the ultimate truth.
                      4. Engineer
                        Engineer 12 November 2019 21: 10
                        +3
                        And I think that the composition of the invading army was multinational

                        Official science also thinks so. Moreover, Mikhail and I wrote that actually the Mongols, God forbid, 10%.
                        Unfortunately, instead of further clarifying the similarities of points of view, a senseless debate about the survival of children of victims of Mongolian violence was unleashed.
                      5. swyatoslav
                        swyatoslav 13 November 2019 19: 51
                        +2
                        I agree 100% - the point in the dispute is not a gram.
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 11 November 2019 23: 08
      -3
      Quote: swyatoslav
      the conquerors did not abuse (did not leave their genetic material) captured Russian women

      I wonder how you imagine it.
      A dozen steppes burst into the Russian village and ... what? Well, let's say a village of three to five yards. Suppose in each yard two or three women of reproductive age. Suppose that none of them escaped into the forest at their approach. Suppose, even, that the steppe inhabitants, having stocked themselves up with fodder, plundered barns and sheeps (this is the main thing for them, otherwise they cannot survive the campaign), after they set the village on fire, they decided to have fun. And submit Russian women here! And so they gathered around the village a dozen women from fifteen to forty years. All are already married, all regularly live sexually, and do not use contraceptives, due to their complete absence. Yes, in fact, this will never occur to them, because children are the same capital of a family as, excuse livestock, perhaps even more valuable. How many of these women are not pregnant from their Russian husbands, healthy, are in the period of ovulation and are able to conceive this very minute? One in a hundred? For a thousand?
      So the Mongolian orgy, even if you imagine that it really could have taken place, would most likely be wasted in terms of sowing the Mongolian gene pool. And if we take into account that out of a dozen steppes who arrived, the Mongols proper, with the corresponding gene pool, there will be one or two, no more, then the task for them becomes absolutely impossible.
      Yes, they could take young and healthy girls with them and use them on halts on the way. But if such a woman suddenly becomes pregnant, then most likely she will die on the road, and if she survives and gives birth, then it will already be far beyond the Volga - there, in fact, the carrier of the biological father’s genes will remain. And then he will come to Russia with his half-brothers.
      And further. The Mongols had a wonderful custom - having disgraced a captive, immediately chop off her head if you are not going to take it with you. So that the women of the conquered peoples of the steppe baguatures do not give birth, otherwise you never know ...
      So do not look for the Mongols in Russia. They could not and should not have been.
      1. swyatoslav
        swyatoslav 12 November 2019 10: 11
        +4
        You describe everything so colorfully, as if you yourself participated in Mongolian rituals and robberies, you should write scripts (did you put your hand to "Viking"?) ...
        If we ignore the artistic imagination, the genetic trace from the conquerors always remains.
        For example, the Macedonian army left genetic descendants along the entire historical route - it is proved.
        Or if you don’t go far, then read about WWII (you’re a historian). There is plenty of evidence of violence against women on both sides. And despite the genocide (towards some peoples) of the Nazis and the negative attitude towards the "children of the occupiers", there were so many of them throughout occupied Europe and the USSR that the governments of the countries were (separately) involved in them. And this is the 20th century, civilized and enlightened ...
        Again, let me compare the reaction of the "commentators":
        - when they wrote about the goals and objectives of the Horde people in comparison with the West, all as one asserted that the plans of the "Mongol-Tatars" did not include the total destruction of the population of Rus - and they all agreed with each other;
        - as soon as it came to the usual violence in a war, they immediately "changed their shoes", now claiming the total murder of future tributaries.
        Is this a common practice for historians?
        Can try to learn to recognize the arguments and show professionalism, trying to figure out the facts, and leave the artistic component for their stories?
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 10: 56
          -4
          Quote: swyatoslav
          Can try to learn to recognize the arguments and show professionalism, trying to figure out the facts, and leave the artistic component for their stories?

          What do you see as an artistic component? In an attempt to simulate a collective rape raid situation? So this model becomes artistic and unreliable precisely and only because I tried to include the rape of Russian women in it.
          Write how you imagine such a raid. After all, history is first of all concrete events.
          Quote: swyatoslav
          the genetic trace from the conquerors always remains.

          Only if the conquerors remain on the conquered lands to live. Which in the case of the Mongols, we obviously do not observe.
          So, no "artistry".
          The absence of the Mongolian genetic trace in Russia is explained by:
          1. A small presence in Russia during the invasion of carriers of the Mongolian genes proper.
          2. The miserable probability of conceiving a child during a raid due to:
          - Permanent pregnancy of the vast majority of women of reproductive age
          - The presence of more important things for raiders to provide troops with forage and trophies - the main goal of a military campaign
          - The custom of the Mongols to kill raped captives in order to exclude the possibility of their offspring from conquerors.
          3. The lack of permanent Mongolian military contingents in Russia.
          I am waiting for objections to the proposed points.
          1. swyatoslav
            swyatoslav 12 November 2019 19: 11
            +2
            1) the artistic component - a colorful description of your idea of ​​how and according to what scenario the steppe raids should take place, as well as their thoughts and the fictitious argumentation of the Slavs;
            2) I gave an example of the Macedonian army - the genetic trace is determined all the way and they did not remain on those lands - they all returned; then your theory is (at least) controversial; but what does the example of Germany and occupied Europe (part of the USSR) do not suit you ?;
            3) - from what sources did you get information about
            presence in Russia during the invasion of carriers of Mongolian genes proper
            - share, I will study;
            -
            The permanent pregnancy of the vast majority of women of reproductive age
            - This is a made-up duty to be permanently pregnant, where from? is there any data?
            -
            The presence of more important cases for raiders to provide troops with forage and trophies
            - and this you read in the memoirs of the "Mongol-Tatars"? do you think, decide and determine the importance of this or that for them? on what basis?
            -
            Mongol custom to kill raped captives
            - then you write that they are not up to women, you insist that they raped and killed, you can choose something?
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 12 November 2019 20: 42
              -3
              Getting interesting laughing
              That is, an attempt to simulate a situation expressed in accessible language is an artistic component? Okay. Let's say I put it this way: "After completing the main task of collecting forage, the nomad unit began to perform a secondary task to satisfy their sexual needs" - is that okay? laughing
              Quote: swyatoslav
              example of the army of Macedon

              Great, now let's tell us where you got this data, who collected it, when, where it was published. Do not forget about the evidence that a particular genotype appeared in a particular place during the Macedonian times, and not earlier or later that way for five hundred to thousand years. "Reformat ru" not to offer - there is a lie through the word.
              Quote: swyatoslav
              what sources did you get data from

              This is generally something new in the arsenal of people like you.
              Usually one hears appeals to common sense ("how to feed the horses", "where is the genetic trace", "where are the graves of the dead Mongols", etc.), but here directly "give sources" ... You think all the sources are fakes, the works of professional historians are zero for you, annals and chronicles are forgery, letters and other documents are falsification. What kind of source do you want? Chronicles and chronicles? Mongolian, Persian, Russian, European? Memories of eyewitnesses, such as Plano Carpini and Guillaume de Rubruc? Works of historians? What do you want - the century before last, last or present? Just tell me. laughing
              I've tried to speak your language, operating specifically on common sense, and not on sources that you do not believe in. What summed up common sense? What a trouble ...
              Or do you still continue to believe that the steppe dwellers went on a raid on Russia, a military event, by the way, dangerous and risky, like any war, in order to walk around as many Russian women as possible? And the Russian peasants did nothing but evade the fulfillment of their conjugal duty, because of what their wives were "idle"? It's funny, the right word ... And sad.
              Regarding the latter
              Quote: swyatoslav
              can you choose something?

              What for? In the course of the raid, the steppes didn’t rape anyone - not until then, you know, you have to rob, otherwise your colleagues will steal everything, you will return home without a profit. But purely theoretically, during the raid it is extremely rare, but circumstances could arise that could satisfy one's lust, in this case, of course, no one was shy. And having done their dirty deed, the captive was killed for the reasons I described. The Mongols valued their blood highly and did not want to share it. And about this, too, is in the sources and in the scientific literature.
              1. Seal
                Seal 13 November 2019 09: 14
                +2
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                all sources
                Show sources that are accurately dated at that time, written in the first person. Not books like Plano Carpini and Guillaume de Rubruc, and then along which, if you build a route, you begin to circle no further than the Ural Mountains, namely handwritten materials of eyewitnesses, clearly dated exactly "by that" time.
                What kind of you before last, past or present century? Just say

                Pose-pose of the past is possible. I mean to show you. hi

                In the course of the raid, the steppes didn’t rape anyone - not until, you know, you need to rob
                Well, just professional reasoning. lol
              2. swyatoslav
                swyatoslav 13 November 2019 19: 07
                +1
                1) no matter how you express yourself, it’s still just your imagination, that is, the artistic component:
                2) it is the website that was reformatted in general and Professor A. Klesov, in particular - at least scientists are published there, even if you are skeptical about them; scientific theories are much more weighty than the fantasies of a commentator in
                3)
                in the arsenal of you like
                - when the opponent has no arguments, he turns to the person and begins to be rude, it turns out except you have no arguments, except for rudeness (it’s very bold to insult at a distance!);
                4) it must be assumed that the lack of sources compels you to accuse me of what I DO NOT SPEAK; or you can quote where i
                fake sources you think, the works of professional historians for you - zero, annals and chronicles - fake, letters and other documents - falsification
                - if you do not give my quote, then you are lying to hide your incompetence!
                5)
                I've tried to speak your language, operating with common sense
                - why did you suddenly decide that your FANTASIES are like common sense? this is your opinion - no more than that, so do not flatter yourself and do not ascribe to yourself too much;
                6)
                But why?
                - indeed, why, if it is possible when it is convenient to "change shoes" and assert the exact opposite, the main thing is that you have something to justify yourself, right?
                7)
                What kind of you before last, past or present century? Just say
                - I say: please share where you got information about
                presence in Russia during the invasion of carriers of Mongolian genes proper
                , that is (if you insist) indicate a link to materials that contain data on the genotypes of monoloids (C2) during the invasion period - only you don’t change your shoes, imagine !!!
                7) something in your text emoticons to the place and out of place - you are all with health in order, maybe a nervous tick?
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 14 November 2019 11: 33
                  -3
                  Quote: swyatoslav
                  when the opponent has no arguments, he goes to the individual and begins to be rude

                  From your side it looks quite self-critical - to consider the expression "like you" an insult. smile
                  Quote: swyatoslav
                  presumably the lack of sources compels you to blame me

                  Do not. You, apparently, in general, anything "to believe" is contraindicated, because your reasoning, how to put it ... confused and contradictory. There are plenty of sources. As for the Mongols, this is the "Secret Legend", and our chronicles, Persian and European chronicles.
                  My phrase
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  You think all sources are fakes

                  did not refer to you specifically, but in general, to you and "you like". So if I'm wrong here, give your own quote or just confirm that you consider the chronicles, chronicles, memoirs and works of historians to be sources of historical knowledge, then it makes sense for me to argue with you, relying on them. So far, I don't see any sense in this.
                  Let's say my "fantasies" seem to you devoid of common sense. I think otherwise, but it's not that important. Another thing is interesting: you, brush aside my reasoning, but do not even try to find grounds for this, do not give your own counter-arguments, do not refer to any authorities and do not even simply answer my questions. What do you say about this yourself?
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  Do you continue to believe that the steppe people went on a raid on Russia, a military event, by the way, dangerous and risky, like any war, in order to walk around as many Russian women as possible? And the Russian peasants did nothing but evade the fulfillment of their marital duty, because of what their wives were "idle"?

                  Well, as for
                  Quote: swyatoslav
                  specify a link to materials which contain data on genotypes of monoloids (С2) during the invasion

                  then this, of course, is impossible. And it’s impossible, in principle, from the word at all, because:
                  - in the XIII century. DNA has not yet been investigated
                  - by the time such studies began, all participants in the invasion had long since died
                  - and, most importantly, remember for yourself and pass on to Klesov’s comrades - an individual’s belonging to a particular haplogroup in no way can serve as a marker of his belonging to a certain ethnic group.
                  Modern researchers believe that at the time of the invasion of Russia, the actual ethnic Mongols who came from Mongolia did not exceed 10% in the Batu army, so in absolute terms there could not be more than 4-7 thousand people at different stages of the invasion. And what kind of haplogroups these Mongols had was a mystery behind seven seals.
                  So what about the general rape? Were they or not? laughing
                  1. swyatoslav
                    swyatoslav 14 November 2019 12: 25
                    +2
                    What do your nervous emoticons do not pass? Zaboristo pushed you ....
                    1) I’m glad at least that you recognized the absurdity of one of your statements about the data on haplotypes, although for this you needed to ask you twice. And they did not stop the eruption even on this occasion.
                    2) The address "like you", by definition, contains a veiled insult and generalization - it is used by people who are weak and not particularly intellectual. Do you recognize yourself?
                    3) I consider it stupid to compete with you in the fantasy circumstances of certain events. You can exercise in your articles - there you prove everything to yourself. But I’m deeply not interested. There is a fact - there is an argument, there is no fact - there is no conversation, so in my opinion.
                    4)
                    because your reasoning, how to say it ... chaotic and contradictory
                    - again you fantasize .... well, what a habit of lying?
                    They lied about my rejection and rejection of the original sources, I’m lying now.
                    For you (on purpose), I remind you that I pointed out the published, confirmed scientific data of Professor A. Klesov and asked you also to refer to YOUR sources. I did not receive any links in the end - only the emotions that were inflamed by your imagination and indiscriminate (like everything else) accusations.
                    5) As I understand it, you don’t get a reasoned opinion from you, and skirmishing was not part of my plans initially. Continue in front of the mirror. I’m sure you’re so used to it.
                    PS Yes, if you have incontinence - you can continue!
  29. Operator
    Operator 12 November 2019 21: 43
    +1
    Quote: swyatoslav
    Who were Genghisides

    Genghisides are carriers of haplogroup С2.
  30. Seal
    Seal 13 November 2019 09: 08
    +2
    Quote: Ken71
    It is known that
    I envy those people who always "know exactly" everything that supposedly happened in ancient times.
    Quote: Ken71
    And you that Suzdal’s have been taken away from untruth?

    Not a mile away - what is this?
    Quote: Ken71
    You somehow breathe unevenly towards them
    Lord, what kind of people went.
    You write about the Armenians - immediately someone appears who says that I breathe unevenly towards the Armenians.
    You write about the Jews - immediately someone appears who says that I breathe unevenly towards the Jews.
    You write about the Georgians - then someone appears immediately who declares that I breathe unevenly towards the Georgians.
    Not a discussion, but a kindergarten pants with straps. When, in essence, there is nothing to say, but really want to, these especially clever "commentators" for some reason always try to turn the discussion of the texture into a party meeting to consider a personal case.
  31. Seal
    Seal 13 November 2019 09: 17
    +2
    Quote: swyatoslav
    For example, the Macedonian army left genetic descendants along the entire historical route - it is proved.
    Are you sure that this was the "Macedonian army" and not the result of long Byzantine-Iranian wars?
  32. Seal
    Seal 13 November 2019 09: 20
    +2
    Quote: Engineer
    Official science also thinks so.
    Official civil science. But for some reason no one has ever set the professional military for such a task as, for example: "Based on the available data (???), determine the possibility of creating a professional army from wild nomads and the likelihood that this army is in such a then the term will come to Ryazan and burn it. "
  33. Seal
    Seal 13 November 2019 09: 47
    +2
    Quote: Operator
    Quotes from medieval written sources about the way the Mongols increase their mobility are quoted many times in Ryzhov’s articles on VO
    What medieval sources do not fantasize lol
  34. Seal
    Seal 13 November 2019 10: 54
    +1
    Quote: Engineer
    The estimated number of the Mongols proper in the campaign to Russia is 4 thousand people.
    What kind of military academy or military institute, and when did they receive the task to carry out work to study the estimated number of "the Mongols proper in the campaign against Russia" ???
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 13 November 2019 12: 40
      0
      And why should they set such a task? They are laymen in the field of medieval military affairs.
      They don’t know how to work with sources, they don’t know languages, they are not familiar with medieval logistics, nor are they with the weapons of the era. The methodology of historical criticism is not known; documents are not trained to verify. Familiar philologists and archaeologists for consultation with them, unlike professional historians, do not.
      You have some kind of blind faith in military academies. They won’t pull it at all (see above), and it’s not their job. Everyone must do their job.
      Most importantly, before you criticize something, you need to familiarize yourself with this. You are not familiar with the difficulties estimating the number of Mongols.
  35. Usher
    Usher 14 November 2019 23: 01
    -5
    Quote: karabass
    It was not a support, just Russia adapted to live under the Horde and therefore history went just like that
    I just can sometimes afford to tell the truth, the disclosure of which is taboo in society is all

    WOW THE TRUTH !!! HERE TRUTHFUL !!! Nobody knew!!! REVELATION!!!
  36. Seal
    Seal 2 December 2019 13: 12
    0
    Quote: Engineer
    They are laymen in the field of medieval military affairs.

    That is, in your opinion, the modern military are not specialists in the field of medieval military affairs, but philologists, archaeologists, professional historians are ??
    And medieval logistics, all these philologists, archaeologists and historians know, of course better, much better than modern experts in the field of transport, right?
    And how to build an antique or medieval ship, then philologists, archaeologists and historians will simply give a huge head start to modern specialists in the field of shipbuilding, right?

    You are not familiar with the difficulties estimating the number of Mongols.

    Yes, I actually have not seen the "works". In the sense of the works of professional demographers. And all sorts of "work" in which the cart stands in front of the horse are not interesting to me. All these works are of the type of calculation that I once observed when I was a member of one authoritative commission. There was some work to be done. They chose an organization that would be able to do this work. Well, back then there were no obligatory competitions or obligatory auctions. But everything went to this. A number of applicant firms tried to present at least a semblance of calculations, such as "It takes so many labor hours of such specialists, so many labor hours of other specialists. The cost of a labor hour is as follows. It is necessary to involve the following machines and mechanisms ...".
    And only the representative of one of the most important organizations of the applicant built his rationale as follows.
    Given: 50 billion (still undenominated) rubles from the budget.
    Need to create - 50 objects.
    Total cost of one object will be 10 billion rubles. And he looked around with a victorious look. laughing
    I must say right away that he was simply struck by thunder when it was not his organization that was declared the winner. lol

    Likewise, the "works" that estimate the number of "Mongols".
    All these appraisers in their work proceed from the fact that:
    a) "Mongols" came to Russia;
    b) "Mongols" conquered Russia.
    c) Before coming to Russia, the "Mongols" conquered .....
    And they are trying to come to an agreement, but how many "could there be" these same "Mongols" so that they could conquer Russia and not rest from hunger. laughing
    And then you need to start with the definition, but how many "Mongols" you "that time" could be in "Mongolia" itself. And it is not necessary to determine on the fingers, proceeding again from the fact that "since the Mongols then conquered something, then there should have been no less ...." "that time" taking into account life expectancy, diseases, etc. etc. hi
  37. awdrgy
    awdrgy 5 December 2019 10: 47
    0
    Half a year one way, well, let it take 3-4 months. The result is staggering. Such an expeditionary company and now you can only envy. Logistics is clearly superior to Napoleonic and so that Napoleonic-Germany of WWII nervously smokes on the side. Strange all this