Military Review

Empire of Genghis Khan and Khorezm. Invasion

125
So, in the summer of 1219, the Mongol army went on a campaign against Khorezm.



Warriors of the mongols


According to the agreement from 1218, Genghis Khan demanded warriors and 1000 gunsmiths from the Tangut kingdom of Xi Xia. The gunsmiths were provided to him, as part of his troops went on a Western campaign, but the Tanguts refused to give their soldiers. After the defeat of Khorezm, this will be the occasion for Genghis Khan for a new war and the final destruction of the kingdom of Xi Xia.

In the fall of 1219, the Mongols entered the territory of Khorezm, where their army was divided. The main forces led by Genghis, with whom his best commander Subaedei was with, quickly marched through the Kyzyl-Kum desert to Bukhara, located far to the west. The corps of the sons of Genghis - Chagatai and Ogedei, was sent to Otrar. Jochi along the eastern coast of the Syr Darya headed towards the cities of Sygnak and Jend. The 5 thousandth detachment later detached from its corps, which went to Benakat, and then to Khojend.


Genghis Khan and his three sons. Thumbnail from the Collection of Annals of Rashid al-Din, XIV century


Empire of Genghis Khan and Khorezm. Invasion

Mongol campaigns to the west 1219-1225 gg.


Siege of Otrar


Otrar was defended by Kayyar Khan, who in 1218 captured the Mongol caravan and killed the merchants, appropriating their goods. He did not expect mercy, and therefore, in the hope of a miracle, he stayed for 5 months.


Image of the siege of the city by the Mongols, miniature from the Codex of Rashid al-Din


A miracle did not happen, help did not come, and the Mongols broke into the city. Ata-Melik Juvaini in his work “Genghis Khan. History conqueror of the world ”as described by the last battle of Kayyar Khan:
“The Mongol army entered the fortress, and he took refuge on the roof ... And, since the soldiers were ordered to capture him and not put him to death in battle, then, obeying the order, they could not kill him. Wives and virgins began to give him bricks from the palace walls, and when they ended, he was surrounded by the Mongols. And after he tried many tricks and launched many attacks and put many people down, he fell into captivity and was tightly bound and bound by heavy chains. ”




Kayyar Khan, apparently, was a bad man, but he fought, albeit forcedly, like a hero. He was taken to Genghis Khan, who ordered silver in his eyes and ears.


Genghis Khan. Portrait painted by a Chinese master


The city and the fortress of people who violated the laws of hospitality, according to Mongolian customs, were destroyed. Surviving artisans, interpreters and merchants were taken prisoner. The youngest and strongest of the remaining men were identified in hashar, the rest were killed. Hashar slaves had to go with the Mongols to other cities, serve as porters, laborers, during the assault they drove them to the walls before the Mongols, forcing them to take flying arrows and stones, blows of spears and swords.

Genghis Khan at Bukhara


Genghis Khan went to Bukhara, cutting off the retreating Khorezmshah from the main forces.


Genghis Khan’s heading is on the way. Modern reconstruction, Mongolia



Yurt Genghis Khan


In January 1220, his youngest son Tolui went to the city of Zarnuk, which surrendered without a fight. Its inhabitants were taken to the steppe, where officials carried out an inspection, having selected the strongest men for siege of Bukhara in hashar, the rest were allowed to return to the city. Also, without a fight, Suburday was surrendered to the city of Nur. Genghis Khan, who came later, arranged a solemn meeting for his residents. According to Rashid al-Din, a satisfied conqueror asked:
“How great is the lodge set by the Sultan in Nura?”
He was told: "One thousand five hundred dinars." He ordered: "Give this amount in cash, and besides this (you) will not be harmed." They gave the requested, and got rid of the beating and robbery. "


In February 1220, the army of Genghis approached Bukhara and besieged the city, which was defended by 20 of thousands of soldiers.

An-Nasawi in his work “Biography of the Sultan Jalal ad-Din Mankburna” reports that the Mongols stormed Bukhara continuously - day and night. When the commander of the garrison, Amir Ahur Kushlu, realized that the city was doomed, at the head of an equestrian detachment he threw himself into the last attack, and the Mongols who did not expect such a rush ran in front of them:
“If Muslims escorted one attack by another, throwing them like a kick in the back and getting involved in battle, they would have sent the Tatars to flight. But ... they were content only with their salvation. When the Tatars saw that their goal was (only) deliverance, they rushed after them, began to block their escape routes and pursued them to the shores of Jeyhun. Of these, only Inanj Khan with a small detachment escaped. Death has befallen most of this army. ”


The next day, Bukhara opened the gates to the Mongols, but the fortress of this city still remained.

In Bukhara, the attention of Chinggis was attracted by the cathedral mosque, which he mistook for the palace of the ruler. According to Ibn al-Asir,
“The chests with the lists of the Koran were turned into horse nurseries, the wineskins were dumped with wine in mosques and the city singers were forced to come to sing and dance. The Mongols sang according to the rules of their singing, and noble persons (cities), Seyyids, imams, ulama and sheikhs, stood instead of grooms at horse-drawn horses. ”


He further reports:
“He (Genghis) said to the inhabitants of Bukhara:“ I demand from you those silver bars that I sold to you from Khorezmshah. They belong to me and were taken from my people (I mean the property of a caravan plundered in Otrar). Now you have them. ” Then he ordered (the inhabitants of Bukhara) to leave the city. They left, deprived of their property. None of them had anything left but the clothes that were on him. The infidels entered the city and began to rob and kill anyone they found ... The infidels set fire to the city, madrassas, mosques and tortured people in every way, seeking money. ”



Genghis Khan addresses residents of the city of Bukhara. Illustration for the "Collection of Chronicles" Rashid ad-Din. Indian art school. The era of the Mughals, XVI century.


Juvaini says so about the storming of the Bukhara fortress:
“The male population of Bukhara was driven into military operations against the fortress, mounted catapults on both sides, pulled bows, stones and arrows fell, oil spilled from oil vessels. Whole days thus fought. In the end, the garrison found itself in a hopeless situation: the serf ditch was razed to the ground with stones and (killed) animals. The Mongols, with the help of the people of Bukhara Khashar, set fire to the gates of the citadel. The khans, noble persons of their own time and persons close to the Sultan, who didn’t step on the ground with their feet, turned into captives ... The Mongols from the Kanglyites were left alive only by lot; more than thirty thousand men were killed, and women and children were taken away. When the city was cleansed of the rebellious, and the walls were leveled, the entire population of the city was expelled to the steppe, and the young people to the hashar of Samarkand and Dabusiya ... One man managed to escape from Bukhara after it was captured and reach Khorasan. He was asked about the fate of the city, he replied: "They came, they attacked, they burned, they killed, they robbed and they left."



Mongol in full military vestment, Chinese figure


Jochi Corps Actions


The troops of Chinggis' eldest son, Jochi, first approached the city of Sugnak, located on the banks of the Syr Darya. Here, the townspeople killed the ambassador sent to them, and therefore, taking the city, the Mongols killed all its inhabitants - to the last man. In April 1220, Mr. Jochi approached Jend. This city did not show resistance, and therefore the Mongols limited themselves to robbery: the inhabitants were taken out of the walls for 9 days: so that, on the one hand, they did not stop the invaders from digging in their belongings, and on the other hand, to protect them from spontaneous violence by soldiers.

After that, the detachment of Jebe separated from the body of Jochi, who went to Ferghana, causing great concern to the Khorezmshah and forcing him to spray his forces even more.



It was after this, when he saw the enemy troops in the west (Genghis Khan) and in the east (Jeb), Muhammad II left Samarkand.

Siege of Hodzhend


The emir of the city of Khojend Timur-Melik showed fierce resistance to the Mongols of Alag-noion. He had built a fortress between two arms at the fork in the Syr Darya in advance, where he moved after capturing a city with a thousand of the best soldiers. It was not possible to take this fortress right away and the Mongols drove into the hasn 50 thousands of prisoners from the vicinity of this city and Otrar. The Mongols were originally 5 thousand people, later their number increased to 20 thousand.

Hashar’s slaves carried stones from the mountains, which they tried to block the river, and Timur-Melik on the 12 longboats he built, completely covered with felt covered with clay and vinegar, tried to stop them, and at night he made shore trips, causing quite noticeable losses to the Mongols. When it became completely impossible to hold on, he went to Jend with the remaining people on the 70 ships, constantly fighting the Mongols chasing him along the river bank. Here Timur-Melik was met by the soldiers of Jochi Khan, who built a pontoon bridge and installed throwing guns and self-arrows on it. Timur-melik was forced to land his people on the shore of Barchanligkent and move along the shore. So, all the time attacked by superior forces of the Mongols, he walked for several more days, the Mongols captured the convoy with food and equipment almost immediately, the detachment suffered heavy losses. In the end, Timur-Melik was left alone, he was pursued by three Mongols, of the three arrows that still remained, one did not have a tip. Blinding one of the Mongols with this arrow, Timur invited the others to turn back, saying that he was sorry to spend the last arrows on them. The Mongols did not doubt the accuracy of the famous enemy, and returned to their squad. And Timur-Melik safely reached Khorezm, again fought with the Juchi Mongols, expelling them from Yangikent, and went to Shakhristan to Jalal ad-Din.

The fall of Samarkand


At that time, in the capital of Khorezm, Samarkand, there were about 110 thousand soldiers, as well as 20 "divine" elephants. However, other sources reduce the number of Samarkand warriors to 50 thousands.

Now, the troops of Genghis Khan (from Bukhara), Chagatai (from Otrar) approached the walls of the city from three sides, and Jabe led the advanced units of the army besieging Khojend.



Detachments were later allocated from these troops to search for and pursue Muhammad II and monitor the actions of his heir, Jalal ad-Din, to prevent him from joining the Khorezmshah.

Ibn al-Asir reports that some of the soldiers and volunteer citizens went out of the city walls and fought with the Mongols, who, by a false retreat, ambushed them and killed everyone.

“When the residents and warriors (remaining in the city) saw this, they lost heart and the death became obvious to them. The warriors who were Turks declared: "We are of the same kind, and they will not kill us." They asked for mercy, and the (infidels) agreed to spare them. Then they opened the gates of the city, and the inhabitants could not stop them. ”

(Ibn al-Asir, The Complete Code of History.)

The fate of the traitors was miserable. The Mongols ordered them to surrender weapon and horses, and then “they began to chop them with swords and slaughtered everyone to the last, taking their property, mounts and women” (Ibn al-Asir).

Then the Mongols ordered all the inhabitants of Samarkand to leave the city, announcing that everyone who remained in it would be killed.

“Entering the city, they sacked it and burned the cathedral mosque, and left the rest as it was. They raped the girls and subjected people to all kinds of tortures, demanding money. Those who were not suitable for hijacking in captivity, they killed. All this happened in Muharram six hundred and seventeen. ”

(Ibn al-Asir.)

And here is the testimony of Rashid al-Din:
“When the city and the fortress were equal in destruction, the Mongols killed many emirs and warriors, the next day they counted the remaining. Of this number, thousands of artisans were singled out, and in addition, the same number was identified in hashar. The rest were saved by the fact that for obtaining permission to return to the city they were obliged to pay two hundred thousand dinars. Genghis Khan ... took part of those destined for hashar with him to Khorasan, and part sent with his sons to Khorezm. After that, several times in a row, he demanded a hashar. Of these hashars, few survived, and as a result, that country was completely depopulated. ”



Rashid al-Din, a monument in Hamadan, Iran


The Chinese pilgrim Chang Chun wrote later that earlier the population of Samarkand was about 400 thousand people, after the defeat of the city of Genghis Khan, about 50 thousand remained alive.

Remaining at Samarkand, Genghis Khan sent his son Toluy to Khorasan, giving him an army of 70 thousand people in command. A little later, at the beginning of 1221, his other sons - Juchi, Chagaty and Ogedei, at the head of the 50-thousandth army, were sent to Gurganj (Urgench), the siege of which lasted 7 months.

The death of Khorezmshah Mohammed II


And what did the khorezmshah do at that time? An-Nasawi reports:
“When the sultan received a message about this woeful event, it aroused alarm and saddened him, his heart was completely weak and his hands dropped. He crossed Jeyhun (Amu Darya) in a miserable state, having lost hope of protecting the areas of Maverannahr ... seven thousand people from his nephews left him and ran to the Tatars. The ruler of Kunduz, Al ad-Din, came to the rescue of Genghis Khan, declaring his enmity with the Sultan. The emir Mah Rui, one of the noble people of Balkh, also came to him ... They informed him (Genghis Khan) what fear the Sultan had, and notified him how he had lost heart - he outfitted two leaders: Dzhebe-noyana and Subet -Bahadur (Subedea) with thirty thousand (warriors). "They crossed the river, heading to Khorasan, and scoured the country."



Mongols on horseback cross the river



Mongolian horseman, Chinese drawing


The order given to them by Genghis Khan has survived:
“By the power of the Great God, until you take him (Muhammad) into your hands, do not return. If he ... seeks refuge in strong mountains and gloomy caves or hides from the eyes of people like peri, then you should, like a flying wind, rush through his area. To everyone who comes out with humility, show affection, establish a government and a ruler ... Everyone who obeys may be granted mercy, and everyone who does not submit will perish. ”



Mongol warriors. Drawing from yuan painting


The third tumen was commanded by Tukajar (Genghis's son-in-law). Some authors report that Tukajar was defeated by Timur-Melik and died, others that he was recalled by Genghis Khan, who was angry with him for having plundered the cities that had previously expressed submission to Subedei and Jae. Genghis allegedly sentenced his son-in-law to death, but then replaced it with demotion.

So, the chase was continued by Subaedey and Jebe, who in May 1220 captured Balkh without a fight. In the Ilal fortress (Mazendaran territory), after an 4-month siege, they captured Muhammad's mother (who preferred the Mongol captivity to flight to her unloved grandson Jalal ad-Din) and his harem.


The inscription reads: "Terken Khatyn, mother of Sultan Muhammad, was captured by the Mongols"


Eunuch Badr ad-din Hilal reports on the future life of Terken-Khatyn:
“Her position in captivity became so disastrous that she repeatedly appeared at Genghis Khan's dining table and brought something from there, and she was missing this food for several days.”


“Dogs” of Genghis Khan, not knowing defeat, whirled through Iran, but could not overtake Muhammad. At first he fled to Rey, and from there to Farrazin fortress, where his son Rukn ad-Din Gurshanchi was at the disposal of which there was a whole army of 30 thousands of people. The Tumens of Subaday and Jabe at that time acted separately, and Muhammad had a chance to take turns defeating each of them. Instead, he, at the first news of the approach of the Mongols, retreated to the mountain fortress of Karun. From there, he immediately went to another fortress - Ser-Chahan, and then took refuge on one of the islands of the Caspian Sea, where, passing power to Jalal ad-Din, he died - either in December 1220, or in February 1221.


The death of Khorezmshah Mohammed II, miniature


The campaign of the "iron dogs" of Genghis Khan



Campaign of Subudei and Jabe


And Subaday and Jebe continued their fantastic raid. Having defeated the Georgian army, through the Derbent passage they went through the lands of the Lezghins to the possessions of the Alans and Polovtsy, defeating them one by one.


Derbent, engraving


Chasing the Polovtsy, they looked into the Crimea, where they took Surozh. Next was the battle very famous in our country near the Kalka River, in which Russian squads first met the Mongol Tumens.


P. Ryzhenko. After the Battle of Kalka


Subedey and Dzhebe were defeated by the combined forces of the Polovtsy and Russian princes, but, on the way back, were defeated in the Volga Bulgaria - at the end of 1223 or the beginning of 1224.

The Arab historian Ibn al-Asir claims that the Bulgars succeeded in ambushing the Mongols, encircling them, and inflicting heavy losses. Only about 4 thousands of soldiers returned to Desht-i-Kypchak and joined forces with Jochi.



This was the only defeat of Subadeus, who, however, very soon settled with the Bulgars. In 1229, he defeated their army on the Ural River, in 1232, captured the southern part of their state, and in 1236, he defeated it completely.


Portraits submitted to the contest "Creating the image of Subudei-Maadyr" (Republic of Tuva)


The last Khorezmshah Jalal ad-Din and his war with the Mongols will be discussed in the next article.

Author:
Articles from this series:
Ryzhov V.A. Empire of Genghis Khan and Khorezm. The beginning of the confrontation
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  1. Lexus
    Lexus 2 November 2019 05: 12 New
    +9
    Yana read in childhood. An episode with a heart torn from his son Jalal ad-Din then was remembered for a lifetime.
    1. Proxima
      Proxima 2 November 2019 13: 24 New
      +8
      Quote: lexus
      Yana read in childhood.

      As I understand it, now the "advanced" forum users read other authors. Arab, Persian and other chroniclers Ibn al-Asir, Badr al-Din Hilari, Al-Nasawi, Juvaini and others, probably conspired and came up with a fairy tale about Genghis Khan and the Mongolswhom, as brilliantly, this was "proved" by two "great historians" fool Fomenko and Nosovsky, was not. recourse
    2. stroybat ZABVO
      stroybat ZABVO 3 November 2019 02: 13 New
      0
      https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=2ahUKEwjPnLvt0szlAhWVHbkGHW4CB3MQ8TUwBHoECA0QNw&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov
      Who served nearby knows.
  2. Rust
    Rust 2 November 2019 05: 48 New
    +4
    The book "Cruel Age" describes in detail and interestingly the life and all the campaigns of Genghis Khan. I ought to reread it.
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol 2 November 2019 06: 22 New
      +2
      Quote: Rust
      The book "Cruel Age" describes in detail and interestingly the life and all the campaigns of Genghis Khan. I ought to reread it.

      better books about Genghis Khan not yet written!
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 2 November 2019 08: 36 New
        -9
        Quote: Tlauicol
        A better book about Genghis Khan has not yet been written!

        Again, tales about the steep Mongols who conquered half the World ...

        How different in their approach to the Tatar-Mongol invasion church chronicles and folk epics. Where, according to the epics, was the "Tatar land", why "Tatars" do not come from the steppe, but from the sea. From where the Serpent Gorynych flew to Russia. What other references to the "Tatars" have been preserved in the epics by the people's memory, why they are rejected and forgotten by modern historical science.

        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 2 November 2019 11: 49 New
          +7
          I will keep quiet about Pyzhikov, observing the principle "good or nothing."
          1. Boris55
            Boris55 2 November 2019 12: 44 New
            -4
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            observing the principle of "good or nothing

            The principle is formulated differently: "Only good or nothing false."

            Otherwise, all the mistakes made will be repeated again. There is no need to lie, but it is necessary to talk about mistakes, incl. if you think that this "bookworm", who spent his whole life studying primary sources, was mistaken about something, expose it.
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 2 November 2019 13: 08 New
              +8
              No, I don't think he was wrong. I am convinced that he deliberately misled people by fulfilling a certain order. He is tendentious and selective. Instead of investigating the issue and coming to a definite opinion, doubting, checking and rechecking his conclusions, he, manipulating the facts he knows, tries to "fit" reality into his own concepts. I think that Pyzhikov's activities clearly and clearly demonstrate to us the democratic nature of the scientific environment, its, if I may say so, "pluralism" and, as a consequence, defenselessness against profanation and similar phenomena. This, of course, is not Fomenko and Klesov, but in general the person was moving in a direction close to them.
              Quote: Boris55
              expose.

              It seems that you have time like ... this same candy wrappers. I don’t have enough to study Pyzhikov’s work in detail just to “expose” him in front of you. In order to form an opinion about his works, I just had to watch a couple of his lectures on YouTube. And it was not even necessary to look for a refutation of his arguments - it is enough just to deal with the methods with which he defends his position. Unfortunately, this is no longer science.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 2 November 2019 14: 21 New
                +1
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                "pluralism"

                Eeee, Mikhail! Do not swear "squarely". Banned nafig !!!
              2. Proxima
                Proxima 2 November 2019 17: 50 New
                +3
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                In order to form an opinion about his works, it was enough for me to see a couple of his lectures on YouTube.

                That's right, to find out if the borsch is good, just try a spoon, and not eat out the pan of this der .. ma. hi
              3. Boris55
                Boris55 3 November 2019 08: 19 New
                +1
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                I don’t have so much ... to "expose" him with you here.

                That is, there is nothing to say specifically. There is a prejudice that everything that does not fit into the biblical view of the world is a lie. You suggest doubting it, but you do not doubt the veracity of the history imposed on us by uncharacteristic. This is your choice.

                ps
                If you know the epic about the invasion of Russia by the Tatar-Mongol, at least voice what you remember.

                pps
                In books Pyzhikov quite a lot of references to historical documents. Not all managed to clean our enemies.
      2. knn54
        knn54 2 November 2019 18: 46 New
        +2
        In this case, I recommend the novel Mirmuhsina
        Khojent Fortress: Timur Malik
    2. Blacksmith 55
      Blacksmith 55 2 November 2019 09: 45 New
      +5
      Ian read all the books in his early youth, but did not hear about the Hard Age. Thanks for the info, be sure to read it.
      Thanks to the author for the work, interesting.
    3. kinolog2322
      kinolog2322 4 November 2019 01: 47 New
      0
      Rust, from this book discovered a historical novel, first read at 15 years old. I re-read, constantly listen. Yes, and lived near those places. The film would be shot on this book.
  3. Cartalon
    Cartalon 2 November 2019 06: 51 New
    +2
    In 1220, Bukhara was looted, burned, destroyed, the population was killed, driven out, stolen, and in 1238 there were enough people there to rebel.
    1. VLR
      2 November 2019 07: 39 New
      +8
      But no one says that the Mongols completely destroyed Bukhara, and the townspeople were deported (like Timur residents of Sarai). After the flight of the garrison soldiers, the Bukhara people opened the gates, then only the citadel resisted. And then the Mongols executed precisely the soldiers of this fortress (Kanglian mercenaries, and even then by lot), and not the townspeople. Residents of the city were withdrawn from it for the period of robbery. Affected, those who stayed. So the demographic catastrophe did not happen.
      1. Elturisto
        Elturisto 2 November 2019 18: 56 New
        +1
        It is believable why the ancestors of the Tajiks had to die for their enslavers of Turks.
  4. gorenina91
    gorenina91 2 November 2019 07: 08 New
    +2
    -A Rashid ad-Din ... was .... that a dwarf, or something .. ???
    -Some kind of strange sculpture ..
  5. kalibr
    kalibr 2 November 2019 07: 26 New
    +2
    Valery! Well, where are you in a hurry? First illustration: no author specified. A sketch of a Mongol warrior ... again, it is not indicated that this is from the book of M. Gorelik. A number of miniatures are also not signed. You can not do it this way! There should be a single style of design and ... do not violate the rules for the design of illustrative works. It is in your interests!
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 2 November 2019 08: 26 New
      +2
      Hello, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
      Quote: kalibr
      this is from the book of M. Gorelik.

      If this drawing is by Gorelik, then you are undoubtedly right. If not, then the illustration can be taken from anywhere, even from the magazine "Hustler", do not give a link to it?
  6. Ros 56
    Ros 56 2 November 2019 08: 08 New
    +3
    And the most interesting is that in Mongolia itself no traces of the greatness of Genghis Khan were found. This is strange. But the Mongols themselves honor and respect him, but there is no historical documentary evidence.
    1. gorenina91
      gorenina91 2 November 2019 09: 19 New
      -3
      -Yes ... if other peoples (especially the Europeans tried) did not tell in their myths, fairy tales ..., epics and legends to the Mongols themselves that they supposedly had "such" ... yes "such" ... yes "mighty", they would not have known about this at all ... -They did not know about it for almost 700 years ...
      -You look at the mentality of the Mongols themselves ... -what kind of "rallied conquerors". ???
      - It is very easy to imagine the Roman legions united by iron discipline; Macedonian phalanxes .. that have already outlived their own long before the mythical Ch-Khan; and even squares, which appeared much later ... -And here are scattered, living at different ends of a scanty wasteland, pastoralists who had no weapons ... -arcans for catching cattle, and bows for primitive hunting .. . -and no fighting skills ...
      -And the main thing ...- mentality ...- vision of the world ...- slowness and a constant feeling of open space around ... -absolute fragmentation and a clear lack of perception of tightness, structure., Submission and discipline ... -Everyone a master and a leader ... and his neighbor is not necessary for him to see and hear ...
      -It’s like the Russians ...- with a monstrously vast territory ...- settle as closely as if they live on a tiny piece of land ... -Well away from the city for 200km ...- and here they are Russian villages .. .-and now they are standing right next to the house ... -Rightly takes anger ... -You can see the neighbor’s porch from each porch ... -You can talk through the fence, or even talk directly from the porch with your neighbor ...

      -And here Batu came to the Mongols .., Ch-khan or whatever it was and "united" ... - And where did he come .., where to appear ... - to the market square .., or the square of the city hall ., or Trafalgar Square ??? -And, well, yes ... -that he went round the camps and "united" everyone ... -And whether the shepherds-herders sent him ... -to graze the camels ... -such a "great leader" ... -All and business ...
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 2 November 2019 12: 11 New
        +7
        Excuse me, Irina, but for some reason you are stubbornly trying to reward the then Mongols with the problems of our contemporaries. To unite people now, despite all the means of communication, is more difficult than then, since then the ability to unite was an essential condition for survival. This is now, when life is full and self-sufficient, people can afford to close themselves in their own world. 800 years ago, and even in the steppe, in an open and accessible space, it was decidedly impossible.
        I already drew your attention to the fact that in order to start discussing on the topic of Genghis Khan, you have catastrophically little information about that era and there is completely no any voluminous idea of ​​it. Try to fill in these gaps first, after which I will be pleased to get acquainted with the course of your reasoning and conclusions.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 2 November 2019 12: 56 New
          +9
          It’s not a lack of information, but a rejection of "unpleasant" information.
          The human brain has "filters". What does not fit into previously worked out
          and established patterns are simply discarded.
          You can publish tons of artifacts, but she will not believe in Genghis Khan.
          But at the same time: ALL Russians accept the battle of Kalka. Why? Because it
          already part of the RUSSIAN deep epic.
          Therefore:
          1) they don’t believe in Genghis Khan and his huge army,
          2) in one of the commanders of Genghis Khan, who commanded relatively
          a small detachment, but defeated the combined army of Russians and Polovtsy - they believe.
          The paradoxes of psychology. fellow
          1. gorenina91
            gorenina91 2 November 2019 15: 33 New
            0
            But at the same time: ALL Russians accept the battle of Kalka. Why? Because it
            already part of the RUSSIAN deep epic.

            -Yes, I don’t perceive the battle of Kalka and the legend about Evpatiy Kolovrat and so on ...
            -And the very perception that supposedly "ALL Russians accept the Battle of Kalka" ... is not the same thing ...
            -Just there is a real perception of something ... but there is a simple reading of someone's perceptions ...
            -There is a specific story, but there are ballads and epics ...
            -Well, I don’t perceive that everyone perceives Ch-khan as a reality ...
            - For some reason, no one will undertake to discuss the Battle of Molodi (a great event from the time of Ivan the Terrible) ... -which really had a place to be, but about the Battle of Kulikovo ... - all very much ...
            1. gorenina91
              gorenina91 2 November 2019 16: 23 New
              0
              -And then ...- how easy it is for "enlightened writers" to choose one of the most backward steppe peoples, living almost in the "stone age"; when in Europe (and not only in Europe) there were already universities, centers of civilization and enlightenment, whole cities of artisans and "financiers" .. when alchemists were looking for a way to get gold and get the "philosopher's stone", etc.) ...-. and ... and ... and ... and endow this backward people with super-militaristic abilities ... and a single ideology ... '' One could have come up with something more real ...
              -And Ch-khan himself ...- sat and sat in a cage (not to be confused with the military academy or a whole environment of university mentors and educators) ... and then suddenly ... instantly gaining the skills and knowledge of a commander, a public figure and a skilled an orator, as well as -with the means to attract all kinds of comrades-in-arms under its auspices ...- suddenly began his "great conquering epic" ... -Well ... here it is ...- who believes in what ...
              -By the way ...- at one time E. Pugachev at least at first messed up in military service and military campaigns .. before heading a gang of thugs and starting his rather large-scale military movements ...
            2. Korsar4
              Korsar4 2 November 2019 16: 26 New
              +2
              Why is Genghis Khan through the dash? To not come?

              It is believed that after Dudeneva's rati, children until the XNUMXth century were frightened by "duduka". I heard it myself.
              1. VLR
                3 November 2019 00: 20 New
                +3
                Yes, Tudenyu-Dedyunyu in 1293, Russian collaborators of Prince Andrei Alexandrovich (who received the Grand Duchy and remained Grand Duke until 1304) helped to catch people fleeing from the Mongols through forests and secret shelters, and it became almost impossible to hide from them. Therefore, this invasion made such an impression. It led to a massive outflow of the population to the northeast and became the cause, for example, of the active settlement of Vyatka.
          2. Proxima
            Proxima 2 November 2019 15: 48 New
            +2
            Quote: voyaka uh
            It’s not a lack of information, but a rejection of "unpleasant" information.
            The human brain has "filters". What does not fit into previously worked out
            and well-established patterns are simply discarded

            Absolutely true! good A person is ready to believe in anything, a snowman, a UFO, Shambhala, but only, for example, not the fact of the landing of twelve astronauts on the moon... And "filters" are elementary technical (in this example) illiteracy. hi
      2. Xnumx vis
        Xnumx vis 2 November 2019 22: 09 New
        +3
        And how could the Huns (pastoralists, shepherds) led by Attila to beat the iron legions of the Romans, the Huns came from nowhere! And they disappeared without a trace .. In general, it’s amazing, but the huge masses of well-armed people (iron), nomads who can only hunt and graze cattle, came out of nowhere and conquered the world ... And so time after time ... Sarmatians-Scythians, Goths , vandals, Slavs, Huns, Mongols, .. Turks .. Where did these hordes accumulate? Why splashed out into the light?
        1. Sunstorm
          Sunstorm 7 November 2019 19: 35 New
          0
          Quote: 30 vis
          And how could the Huns (pastoralists, shepherds) led by Attila to beat the iron legions of the Romans, the Huns came from nowhere! And they disappeared without a trace .. In general, it’s amazing, but the huge masses of well-armed people (iron), nomads who can only hunt and graze cattle, came out of nowhere and conquered the world ... And so time after time ... Sarmatians-Scythians, Goths , vandals, Slavs, Huns, Mongols, .. Turks .. Where did these hordes accumulate? Why splashed out into the light?

          about the Huns, by the way, there are a number of articles on the VO .... But in short, the Huns of Attila are a kind of conditional federation of tribes, completely different in composition, equipment, etc., subordinate to the power of several dominant tribes .. after the defeat and death of Attila, the authority was undermined and the federation collapsed ... And if the word "Huns" is cyclizing you, then remember the sweet habit of the Romans to call all foreigners the word "barbarian" ... And yes, the main weapon of the Huns is in some way not iron ... but the Bow ... Well, about the "iron legions" of the Romans in the 5th century .. it is of course yes ... the limitans and the committees are like veterans of "Pompey".
          And about the huge masses .... I will leave without comment, what is a huge mass for you?) Maybe the army of the Greeks went to the siege of Troy?))) If you re-read "Iliad"?)
      3. ORINCH
        ORINCH 6 November 2019 17: 55 New
        0
        In 1644, the Manchu-Mongolian eight-flag troops entered Beijing, and for 40 years of the war they completely subjugated stagnated China. They established the cruel ethnocratic dictatorship of the Qing dynasty there, which collapsed only in 1912 (already during the life of my grandmother, for example). For example, as a symbol of submission to their power, they demanded that the entire male population of China shave their forehead and braid their hair in a braid. It was a symbol of national humiliation that the Chinese patriots suffered for 270 years. The Manchus are a conglomerate of the Tungus and Mongol tribes. Their closest relatives, siblings - Nanai and Udege, slightly more distant - Evenki. Any Evenk, leaving the taiga, could easily incorporate into the Manchu clan, which was impossible to do for almost 400 million Chinese.
        The southern Mongols (Inner Mongolia) submitted to the Manchus before the invasion of China, and became part of the eight-flag troops, the northern Mongols (Outer Mongolia, the current independent state) accepted Qing citizenship later, and although they did not enter the famous troops, a similar one was introduced among them military-administrative system: bug (30 soldiers, platoon) - somon (150 soldiers, company) - hoshuun (from 750 soldiers, brigade) - aimak (army).
        This military-administrative organization of Mongolian society was preserved, as was said above, until 1912.
        Of course, knowledge of these facts deprives the soil of your thoughts.
      4. ORINCH
        ORINCH 6 November 2019 19: 21 New
        0
        Well, of course, the Manchu project did not arise from scratch. The ruling clan Aisin Gero (the Golden clan translated from Manchu) built its origin from the ruling house of the Jurchen empire Jin (Golden translated from Chinese). Ethnic continuity is also evident - the Manchus were direct descendants of the Jurchen.
        The Mongol rulers of that time were descendants of the Yuan dynasty and all were closely related to each other. The Mongols also experienced another rise, were close to superpower, but could not overcome the feudal fragmentation and became dependent on the Manchu bogdo-khans.
        The Mongols and the Manchus had a common political heritage, a reminder and symbol of which is the Ulaan Hall - a red tassel on the headdress. It leaves during the reign of the Oirat Esen-taisha and its famous victory over Emperor Zhentong of the Chinese Ming Dynasty. The Oirat Taishis, who were then in the power of all the Mongols and Manchus, commanded their subjects to wear the Ulaan Hall. This element is still preserved in the national costume of the Mongols, Oirats and Manchu.
    2. knn54
      knn54 2 November 2019 10: 51 New
      -1
      During his campaigns, Ermak also did not find anything.
      1. Proxima
        Proxima 2 November 2019 13: 06 New
        +8
        Quote: knn54
        During his campaigns, Ermak also did not find anything.
        And Khan Kuchum (Chengizid by blood) in the fight against which Yermak folded his head, is not enough for you? request
        1. andrew42
          andrew42 2 November 2019 18: 08 New
          +7
          Kuchum and his military elite were Bukharians, that is, discoverers who came to those places. This is not only not an autochthonous population, but yesterday's conquerors. The Bukharian Chingizids had no more rights to Siberia than the Ermakov people. Only now it is not clear why Chingizids should be considered in connection with Ermak? Siberia is definitely not a "Mongolian" land - partly Vogul, partly Kipchak, partly, as Samsonov would say, "Scythian-Siberian" (this autochthonous ethnic group is generally covered with the darkness of history, but it was, like the cities on the Ob-Irtysh).
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 November 2019 20: 14 New
            10
            Kuchum and its military elite were Bukhara, that is, the finders who came in those places. This is not only an indigenous population, but yesterday’s conquerors. Bukhara Genghisides had no more rights to Siberia than Ermakovs did. Only now it is not clear why the Genghisids in relation to Yermak should be considered?

            I do not like when the truth is interfered with with a lie!
            So in order:
            1. Kuchum - Genghisid? The answer is yes!
            2. Is Kuchum a native of Bukhara? Yes!
            3. Is Kuchum the finder? Yes!
            Further "transfusion from empty to empty." The most reasonable question from whom Kuchum took Siberia Andreev15 42 years before Yermak as he “scored water in his mouth”!
            And the answer is simple and destroys all blah blah blah about Siberian autohunts !!!
            The Siberian Khanate before Kuchum was also headed by a descendant of Genghis Khan !!! And now we will scatter the states in the post of imperial space, what remains of the power of Genghis Khan? Then we will see that almost all the lands are headed by his great-great-great-pro-grandchildren! Exceptions are only four Muscovite state, Persia, Bashkir yurts and the power of Timur! Even India is ruled by the great Mughals.
            Given that the Siberian steppe of that era generally represented a tumbleweed! Kolmakov, Kazakhs, Nogais and Bashkirs, and the Cis Ural region was invaded by Kazan Tatars who fled from Kazan, then the picture is far from oil, but by blood .....
            Regards, Kote!
            1. Operator
              Operator 2 November 2019 20: 37 New
              +1
              Mughals are Baburids descended from Tamerlane, therefore they are not Genghisides by any means.

              Careful need laughing
              1. Proxima
                Proxima 2 November 2019 23: 47 New
                -1
                Quote: Operator
                ..that's why they are not Genghisides by any means.

                Careful need laughing

                You need this more carefully, see the post below.
            2. Hantengri
              Hantengri 2 November 2019 20: 42 New
              +2
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              Then we will see that almost all the lands are headed by his great-great-great-pro-grandchildren! .........
              .......... Even India is ruled by the great Mughals.

              India is past. For Bobur Umarsheikhovich (shah, poet, philosopher, and, at the same time, the founder of the Baburids dynasty and the Mughal empire) - Timurid, not Genghisides. hi
              1. Proxima
                Proxima 2 November 2019 23: 43 New
                +5
                Quote: HanTengri
                India is past. For Bobur Umarsheikhovich (shah, poet, philosopher, and, at the same time, the founder of the Baburids dynasty and the Mughal empire) - Timurid, not Genghisides. hi

                It is not entirely true that Babur was Genghisides on his mother's side and was more proud of this than he was a descendant of Timur, and therefore he called his empire appropriately. hi
                Kote Pane Kohanku was right! good
                1. Hantengri
                  Hantengri 3 November 2019 00: 03 New
                  0
                  Quote: Proxima
                  It is not entirely true that Babur was Genghisides on his mother's side and was more proud of this than he was a descendant of Timur, and therefore he called his empire appropriately.

                  He had the right to be proud of anything. But he could not do this as a full-fledged Chingizid. Tk and without him, "we have any second, in Turkmenistan -ayatola and even Khomeini" (c) So, poor fellow, I had to go to India and assert myself there.
                  1. Proxima
                    Proxima 3 November 2019 16: 44 New
                    +1
                    Quote: HanTengri
                    But this could not make him a full-fledged Genghiside.

                    Well, demagoguery has already started to move .. what What is "full-fledged Chingizid" in your understanding? request But what about the most famous descendant of Genghis Khan Suleiman the Magnificent in the Muslim world? His mother, Havsa-Sultan, was the daughter of the Crimean Khan Mengli Giray. Or is he also an inferior Chingizid?
                2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 2 November 2019 11: 54 New
      +9
      Quote: Ros 56
      in Mongolia itself no traces of the greatness of Genghis Khan were found

      Evidence of the greatness of Rurik or Svyatoslav we, as if, a dime a dozen. And this is in a country with a settled population, what do you want from nomads?
      1. Sunstorm
        Sunstorm 7 November 2019 19: 38 New
        -1
        In completeness, we still argue who Rurik is =) However, a couple of years later, in Ukraine, the wangai will find a will personally signed by Rurik =)
  7. kalibr
    kalibr 2 November 2019 08: 19 New
    +2
    Quote: Ros 56
    but there is no historical documentary evidence.

    There!
    1. Ros 56
      Ros 56 2 November 2019 09: 32 New
      +3
      Strong argument.
  8. kalibr
    kalibr 2 November 2019 08: 34 New
    -2
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    If this drawing is by Gorelik, then you are undoubtedly right. If not, then the illustration can be taken from anywhere, even from the magazine "Hustler", do not give a link to it?

    Anton! This is where the main dog is buried: where to get the "pictures" from. You can simply from the Web, and then from where it is very difficult to understand. It is possible from special sites. Museums, libraries ... It's more troublesome and takes a little more time. But the impression of the material is much better. That's why I wrote "where are you in a hurry." Therefore, I would not take from Hustler, but would find a replacement source, that's all. Yesterday I was writing material and I needed a portrait of Louis 11. Found it at auction. I had to look for it to be a copy and it was replicated in museums in Vienna and other cities. I did not specify the museum specifically. But he indicated three museums and that it was a copy. I think that's enough. But simply to write under the portrait - Louis 11, in my opinion, would not be too correct. And why do it anyhow, when you can do it right?
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 2 November 2019 09: 14 New
      -2
      Quote: kalibr
      This is more troublesome and takes a little longer.

      It's clear. Although it happens differently. You know what you need, where to get it, the source, the place of its storage, but there is no high-quality photograph, at least kill yourself! This is especially true for fragments of thumbnails.
  9. Korsar4
    Korsar4 2 November 2019 08: 41 New
    +3
    Wave after wave. The steppe of the city was destroying. And she didn’t leave her way. Perhaps this gives strength for a long time.
  10. Molot1979
    Molot1979 2 November 2019 09: 05 New
    +3
    There is a thought from which Muhammad fought so ineptly and passively. Apparently, he was a sincerely religious person. But in the Otrar incident, he showed weakness, taking the side of Kayar Khan, although the truth was on the side of Genghis Khan. Therefore, the arrival of the Mongols was perceived as the punishment of Allah. Fighting the Mongols is like fighting against God himself. A doomed business. Therefore, this, in essence, a rather militant ruler, waged the struggle so sluggishly and unsuccessfully, in fact, generally letting it go. Although the chance, if not defeated, was to stop the enemy. Jalal ed-Din was able to defeat part of the Mongols. They were not invincible.
    1. Sunstorm
      Sunstorm 7 November 2019 19: 41 New
      -1
      Probably, as usual, a whole chain of coincidences influenced, one should not exclude your version with religiousness, but most likely the "effective managers" of that period also distinguished themselves there ... You can, for example, clearly see this on the example of the siege of cities ... 7 months ... and somewhere they immediately let in ... probably some "social crisis in relation to the authorities" took place.
  11. Bar2
    Bar2 2 November 2019 09: 16 New
    -5
    Ryzhov is trying to prove to us with all his might that the Mongols are Mongoloids. But there are other historical illustrations and engravings of the Mongols on which the Mongols are Caucasians. What about this, and Ryzhov?
    For example, the battle of the Mongols and Hungarians in 1241 at Chaillot

    https://c.radikal.ru/c22/1911/d7/0cd4a1130ea2.jpg

    Mongols are those who are on the right in armor and with a crescent.
    As we see in the images of the Mongols, there are different interpretations.
    To reinforce the thesis that the Mongols are Europeans, we can add that the Mongols now are a primitive communal people i.e. according to TI, it turns out that the Mongols degraded from the heights of statehood to zero, and that cannot be so. Therefore, all these pictures of Ryzhov are most likely a falsification of history.
    1. VLR
      2 November 2019 09: 30 New
      +7
      And here everything is simple:
      1. First of all, purebred Mongols were just the most likely Mongoloid. Genghis Khan and many of his descendants had blue eyes and red hair.
      Rashid ad-Din directly says that in the family of Genghis Khan, children "were born mostly with gray eyes and blond".
      Their generic name is Borjigins - "blue-eyed".
      The same author, "Kubilay Kaan came to light two months before the birth of Torment When Genghis Khan look at him fall, he said." All of our children are red, and this nigger boy. "
      2. The Mongols in the army of the same Batu Khan were the elite, there were only 4 thousand people, they were taken care of, they were sent into battle in the most extreme case - against the most worthy opponents, or, if the outcome of the battle caused fear. There were much more other steppe dwellers - just the Mongoloid race, it was they who were mistaken for the Mongols themselves. Moreover, the Mongols began to be called "Tatars" - and this tribe was the enemy of the Mongols, it was the Tatars who were accused of poisoning Temujin's father. And Chingis fought fiercely with the Tatars. As a result, the Tatars were almost completely exterminated, they were almost gone, their name was transferred to the Druk steppe people, and, ironically, to the Mongols themselves.
      Kazan Tatars, for example, are actually, basically, the descendants of the Bulgars conquered by the Mongols. Crimean Tatars - almost nothing in common with Kazan - other ancestors, but also not Mongols.
      3. The Mongols have always demanded 10% of everything in the conquered countries - including from the soldiers who went further with the Mongol army. Including in the Russian principalities. And these Russian soldiers abroad of Russia were also "considered" Mongols ".
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 2 November 2019 10: 13 New
        +6
        Hello, Valery!
        Quote: VlR
        Their generic name is Borjigins - "blue-eyed".

        That is, the genus Borjigins clearly stood out from the general tribal mass. This can be explained by a certain genetic fluctuation. However, in general, the Caucasoid nature of the Mongols is doubtful. That is, they could be fair-haired and blue-eyed, this is a recessive trait that distinguishes closed ethnic groups, but at the same time remain Mongoloid.
        1. VLR
          2 November 2019 10: 17 New
          +3
          Yes, Anton, you are right, Genghis's family stood out even among the Mongols. But, apparently, there were still some people similar to them in the population. This recessive symptom “floated” in their environment, emerging from time to time.
      2. AK1972
        AK1972 2 November 2019 12: 49 New
        +5
        Kazan Tatars, for example, are actually, basically, the descendants of the Bulgars conquered by the Mongols. Crimean Tatars - almost nothing to do with Kazan

        My friend and colleague, the Uzbek Tatar, said that the Crimean Tatars have nothing to do with the Tatars themselves (except for the language) and claimed that the Crimean Tatars are Turks, while also communicating with the Tatars in Naberezhnye Chelny, I realized that our Tatars of the Crimean Tatars hate fiercely, and Crimean reciprocate.
      3. kinolog2322
        kinolog2322 4 November 2019 01: 59 New
        +1
        VlR, so for them (the Mongols), to this day, the genus is indicated in the internal passport (Borjigin, Khalkh, etc.)
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 2 November 2019 09: 38 New
      +6
      Quote: Bar2
      Mongols are those who are on the right in armor and with a crescent.

      The phenomenal annotation!
      And Khan Uzbek, accepting Islam did not know, poor fellow, that everything had already been done 80 years ago! laughing
    4. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 2 November 2019 12: 34 New
      +9
      "Bar" - is that a special karma or do folk historians have such a password now? There was a certain "Bar 1" here with the same theses and the same arguments, his name was only different.
      Regarding the portraits of Genghis Khan have already been discussed. He looks like a Europeoid only in portraits painted in Europe and after his death, that way through 200 - 300. That is, the authors painted it as they imagined it by virtue of their imagination, having absolutely no reliable data about his appearance. The Chinese images, the year of Genghis Khan, are a typical Mongoloid, although they too, as a rule, were created later than his death, but in time they are much closer to him and it is possible that the authors of these drawings could see Genghis Khan himself or make portraits according to the descriptions of those who saw.
      Of course, we don’t know what Genghis Khan really looked like. But if some of his images may have a portrait resemblance to him, then it is certainly Chinese, not European at all.
      Always, my dear, when analyzing any pictures, try to find out first when, by whom and for what purpose they were drawn.
      I suggest that you form the image of an Old Russian warrior based on drawings by the famous Novgorod artist of the 13th century. Onfima:
    5. Hantengri
      Hantengri 2 November 2019 14: 54 New
      +3
      Quote: Bar2
      Mongols are those who are on the right in armor and with a crescent.
      As we see in the images of the Mongols, there are different interpretations.

      It never occurred to you that the artist depicting a Mongol in topfhelms, most likely, the Mongols had never seen alive, and dead too?
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 2 November 2019 15: 44 New
        -1
        Well, why not? Could see, only sat with his back to the north, respectively, having the Mongols "on the left" laughing Then everything falls into place.
  12. Bar2
    Bar2 2 November 2019 09: 35 New
    -2
    Quote: VlR
    First of all, purebred Mongols were just the most likely Mongoloid.


    Well, why are you showing the same Genghis Khan, an explicit Mongoloid, if he was not?
    It is necessary to show the historical truth.
    In addition, four thousand one people could not cope with the rest HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of other peoples. In case of disobedience, they would simply be crushed. So the percentage of white Mongols was obviously higher.
    And most importantly, in what language did the white Mongols and other peoples communicate?
    1. VLR
      2 November 2019 09: 45 New
      +5
      This is not me showing, but the authors of the drawings. By the way, note that the Chinese portrait of Genghis Khan does not have the notorious "epicanthus" - the "Mongol fold" of the upper eyelid at the inner corner of the eye. Which Gerasimov managed to "draw" in his reconstructions even in Andrei Bogolyubsky's, depicting him as almost a purebred Mongol, here's a look:

      But then they did not hear about the Mongoloids in Russia. The Polovtsy were Caucasians.
      And the red-bearded and white-faced Tamerlan, who was definitely a Caucasoid, too:

      In general, a very unscrupulous re-constructor was this boiled Gerasimov.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 2 November 2019 09: 51 New
        +1
        And what look of Andrei Bogolyubsky do you trust?

        How similar are the icons to the original?
        1. VLR
          2 November 2019 10: 05 New
          +8
          A lifetime portrait of Andrei Bogolyubsky has not been preserved, so you can only guess about the true appearance.
        2. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 2 November 2019 10: 15 New
          +2
          About the same as the imprint on the Shroud of Turin resembles the original.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 2 November 2019 10: 22 New
            +2
            The sketch of Vasnetsov is very good. But, probably, this is determined by the proximity to our time.
      2. ver_
        ver_ 2 November 2019 10: 01 New
        +3
        ..about the Mongols many copies have already been broken .. but when did the * two moons of the Earth * disappear *? - Lelia and Fata .., well, we see the moon Moon for the time being ..
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri 2 November 2019 23: 43 New
          -2
          Quote: ver_
          but when did * the two moons of the Earth * disappear? - Lelia and Fata .., well, we see the moon Moon for the time being ..

          No where did they disappear. it all depends on the method of observation.
          “Holmes, is it true that you saw the Baskerville dog?”

          Holmes, holding out his pipe to the doctor:
          - Try it, Watson, you will not see it yet!
          1. ver_
            ver_ 4 November 2019 07: 54 New
            +1
            ... there is an opinion that Central Asia was covered with sand, the impenetrable Desert of Thekla Makan appeared and the remains of this moon * came * to Egypt, where palm trees used to grow .. Scythians had to leave * the territory they controlled * in the 12th century ...
      3. Engineer
        Engineer 2 November 2019 10: 20 New
        +4
        Polovtsy were Caucasians

        Probably not.
        Discussion here
        http://istorja.ru/forums/topic/946-vneshnost-polovtsev/
        Once again, I am surprised how enduring the ideas of L.N. Gumileva
        1. VLR
          2 November 2019 10: 22 New
          +3
          Polovtsy is the Russian name for the Kipchaks. And the "chaff" is straw: the hair of the Polovtsians in its color reminded the Russians of straw. It is doubtful if blondes were Mongoloids. He also writes about this in his monograph "Polovtsy" by S. Pletnev.
          Here, by the way, is a very conscientious reconstruction of the appearance of the Polovtsian from the burial near the village of Kvashnikovo, a typical Caucasoid:
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 2 November 2019 10: 31 New
            +6
            Firstly, there is an alternative opinion on the etymology of the Polovtsy from the same Skrzhinsky

            Secondly, here is the opinion of Pletneva herself
            In these testimonies, data about two ethnic groups are especially important for us: kai are, as we know, kimaki, and balls, according to all scientists who were involved in nomadic associations of the medieval era, are Kipchaks, or Polovtsy, since the Russian word “Polovtsy” is ( "Genital") means light yellow (sex - straw, chaff, weathered husk).

            Thus, the Kipchaks themselves, who received the name “yellow” in a number of sources, took the most active part in this total migration to the fat western pastures. Where did this name come from? Many researchers believe that the Polovtsy were blond and blue-eyed, some even associate their origin with the “Dinlins” that lived in the steppes of southern Siberia at the end of the 35st millennium BC. e. - [XNUMX] the beginning of the XNUMXst millennium AD e. and former, according to Chinese chroniclers, blondes. It is possible, of course, that among the Polovtsy there were also individual blond individuals, however, the majority of Turkic-speaking people with an admixture of Mongoloidity (according to anthropologists) were Kimako-Kipchaks black-haired and brown-eyed

            And further
            It is possible that the color characteristic was a symbolic definition, perhaps of some part of the Kipchaks,

            http://annales.info/step/pletneva/index.htm#_Toc265180273
            That is, the Polovtsy name is NOT for hair color.
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 2 November 2019 10: 48 New
              +2
              Polovtsian from Kvashnikovo has mixed features. Caucasoid more.
              Here it is necessary to divide the question: who were the Polovtsy at the time of their arrival from the east? What have they become, especially their aristocracy, after decades of hijacking tens of thousands of Slavic women?
      4. ver_
        ver_ 2 November 2019 12: 22 New
        +1
        ... he just didn’t want to lose his head - it was so simple in those days when the paranoid ruled ..
      5. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 2 November 2019 12: 47 New
        +4
        Valery, Valery, don’t need so harshly! ... smile
        The skull of a Mongoloid from the skull of a Caucasoid is no more difficult to distinguish than the skull of a Negro from the skull of an Eskimo, and they already knew how to do this in the 19th century. smile Gerasimov’s method was repeatedly tested in practice and gave consistently positive results, including in forensics. The fact that the Polovtsy are Caucasoid is also far from a fact, I am convinced that there was no less Mongoloid in them than a Caucasoid. Mongoloid, moreover, the pure Timur and Genghis Khan for me, is generally not in doubt.
        I have repeatedly drawn your attention to the fact that you tend to give out for the proven truth dubious and unverified facts, which, in fact, only can to be true, purely theoretically. Let us nevertheless be more careful with facts and hypotheses and we will not give out the wishful thinking.
        1. VLR
          2 November 2019 13: 42 New
          +6
          By the way, I was a graduate student from Tashkent (and I was a last year student) at a gathering after an inter-university conference at the end of the 80's who assured me that real Uzbeks were fair-haired and blue-eyed. And the dark-haired ones are mestizos. At the same time, he himself was not fair-haired and blue-eyed smile
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 2 November 2019 13: 54 New
            +4
            The roots are apparently from here.
            Pamir-Ferghana race
            https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE-%D1%84%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0
            A fair amount of truth is
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 2 November 2019 14: 08 New
              +2
              The Europoid component in Central and East Asia is generally an interesting topic, but has not seen monographs on the subject.
              General impression from different sources
              In Central Asia, it was very common, but its share was steadily declining, especially after the emergence of the Turkic state. In East Asia (our Mongols and Turks), initially (from historical times) was present weakly or very weakly. Separate penetrations of Caucasoid (conditionally Caucasoid, naturally) tribes did not change the picture.
              The Türks and Mongols were clearly Mongoloids, and I constantly met confirmation of this
        2. karabass
          karabass 2 November 2019 14: 01 New
          +2
          DEAR OWNER TRILOBITA there is a published dissertation - "funeral rite in the golden horde" Horde graves are being investigated in order to determine the religion of the dead. And so of all the investigated graves (the territory of the Volgograd and Astrakhan regions) - the vast majority (more than 90%) are Europioids. By the way, there are also negroids, which is generally surprising)
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 2 November 2019 14: 25 New
            +5
            There is a work by the famous anthropologist Alekseeva on this subject. Unfortunately, I could not find it right away. She notes a significant number of young women of the Caucasian Slavic type in the Golden Horde burial grounds presumably from birth. Apparently captives or slaves bought, or both. This is a powerful source of Europeanization of nomads. BUT we after all reflect on how the Turks and Mongols looked before the Golden Horde, in the era of conquest
          2. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 2 November 2019 18: 11 New
            0
            Quote: karabass
            there is a published dissertation - "funeral rite in the golden horde"

            Do not read. However, he did not claim that the Polovtsy were entirely Mongols. I believe that the population of Desht-i-Kipchak was not at all homogeneous and the descendants, for example, the Khazars, could well have a Caucasian appearance. However, in the steppe everything happens a little faster than in the mountains and in dense forests, and the mutual penetration of cultures and genes - how to give. Worn back and forth across the steppe, a hundred kilometers is not a hook, but to go visit ... So the Polovtsy and their habitat in the XI century. and in XIII, it seems to me that they were significantly different from each other. Well, in the days of the Golden Horde and even more so.
  13. Dalton
    Dalton 2 November 2019 09: 56 New
    0
    The largest empire (after the British), and land.
    Certainly, a fair share of organizational skills and military art is mixed with the political, economic and military prerequisites for such a success of Genghis Khan.
  14. AK1972
    AK1972 2 November 2019 10: 33 New
    +3
    Genghis cruelly, but fairly and intelligibly explained that the ambassadors to kill is not good and very harmful to health.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 2 November 2019 10: 42 New
      +4
      A combat-ready army contributes to convincing arguments.
  15. Engineer
    Engineer 2 November 2019 10: 56 New
    +5
    Tamerlane, who was definitely a Caucasoid

    I apologize, but such peremptoryness is also completely not justified.
  16. kalibr
    kalibr 2 November 2019 11: 42 New
    -1
    Quote: Ros 56
    Strong argument.

    In my mouth - yes!
  17. kalibr
    kalibr 2 November 2019 11: 45 New
    +3
    Quote: Bar2
    Ryzhov is trying to prove to us with all his might that the Mongols are Mongoloids. But there are other historical illustrations and engravings of the Mongols on which the Mongols are Caucasians. What about this, and Ryzhov?
    For example, the battle of the Mongols and Hungarians in 1241 at Chaillot

    Pavel, there have already been so many times about this in VO that it has been imposed on your teeth. Personally, I’m tired of explaining that in heraldry, the crescent is a sign of one of the youngest sons who has nothing to do with Islam.
  18. kalibr
    kalibr 2 November 2019 11: 47 New
    -1
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    It's clear. Although it happens differently. You know what you need, where to get it, the source, the place of its storage, but there is no high-quality photograph, at least kill yourself! This is especially true for fragments of thumbnails.

    So you need to change the text and do without it!
  19. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 2 November 2019 11: 47 New
    +3
    First, praise the author, then I will read the comments.
    Valery, thanks.
  20. kalibr
    kalibr 2 November 2019 11: 51 New
    -1
    Quote: Bar2
    Therefore, all these pictures of Ryzhov are most likely a falsification of history.

    Pavel, I don’t want to offend you, but ... if you did not defend at least a candidate’s dissertation on this subject, then ... it’s not for you to judge. About it. You can, however, without it. But then you need to write at least 10 articles yourself with links to reputable sources and show what you want there.
  21. AK1972
    AK1972 2 November 2019 12: 27 New
    +1
    "Chests with Koranic lists were turned into a horse nursery, wineskins with wine were piled into mosques"
    Valery, as always, thank you for the article! However, it is not clear about wine. Muslims, it seems, cannot be drunk, but the Mongols did not seem to grow grapes.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 2 November 2019 13: 04 New
      +6
      Do not confuse early Islam and late.
      In the first 500 and more years of its spread, Islam did not prohibit wine,
      women did not have to wrap themselves from head to toe, etc.
      With Christianity, by the way, exactly the same metamorphoses occurred in the Middle Ages.
      And with Judaism also in due time.
    2. VLR
      2 November 2019 13: 05 New
      +2
      Well, so al-Nasir reports. Maybe the Mongols brought trophy wineskins with wine, maybe among the local merchants and their clients were not only Muslims.
  22. Bar2
    Bar2 2 November 2019 13: 21 New
    0
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    Bar "- is that a special karma, or is the password for folk historians now? There was a certain" Bar 1 "with the same theses and the same arguments, it was called only differently.

    I am Paul my real name.
    We still have a lot to talk about.
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 2 November 2019 18: 02 New
      -2
      Quote: Bar2
      I am Paul my real name.

      Here, damn it, what Samsonov the life-giving does! Is it time to attract him for necromancy?
      Quote: Bar2
      We still have a lot to talk about.

      Let's talk, if there is anything. However, based on previous experience, I venture to suggest that the conversation we do not work out. request
  23. Bar2
    Bar2 2 November 2019 13: 25 New
    -2
    Quote: VlR
    And the red-bearded and white-faced Tamerlan, who was definitely a Caucasoid, too:

    the same thing, there are many images of Tamerlane and even Turkish images in which he is a Europeanodoid. What would the Asian Turks portray him in European?
  24. Bar2
    Bar2 2 November 2019 13: 28 New
    -2
    Quote: VlR
    But then they did not hear about the Mongoloids in Russia

    yes no, of course. From ancient times, there was such a thing as trade between peoples and there was the Great Silk Road that existed in ancient times and went this way partly in Russia. Therefore, on what basis do you say that the Russians did not see the Mongoloids?
    1. ver_
      ver_ 4 November 2019 13: 21 New
      +1
      ... The Mongols appeared only in the 2nd century ... Time machines have not yet been invented .. To replace concepts - the Mughals (great) and the Mongols of the 20th century - the defamation of history .. Who could write about the 13-14 centuries of the Mongols? ...
  25. Bar2
    Bar2 2 November 2019 13: 34 New
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    Pavel, I don’t want to offend you, but ... if you did not defend at least a candidate’s dissertation on this subject, then ... it’s not for you to judge.

    I don’t want to offend you either, but on what basis do you judge the quality of weapons bronze and steel? Are you a specialist metallurgist who defended a candidate for metal processing? However, judge this all the time.

    Quote: kalibr
    Pavel, there have already been so many times about this in VO that it has been imposed on your teeth. Personally, I’m tired of explaining that in heraldry, the crescent is a sign of one of the youngest sons who has nothing to do with Islam.


    this is not the point, but in the Mongolian robe; they are dressed like the European knights and iron, obviously not one kilogram on them.
  26. Engineer
    Engineer 2 November 2019 14: 53 New
    +4
    On the issue of Mongoloid / Caucasoid
    In an attempt to find the classic works of Alekseev and Alekseeva, as well as Debec on anthropology. Found a more recent material. The author - Komarov.
    https://www.dissercat.com/content/naselenie-stepei-vostochnoi-evropy-ii-tysyacheletiya-po-dannym-kraniologii
    While I am looking for a dissertation, I will lay out the conclusions of Mr. Komarov
    1. For pre-Mongolian nomads, the territory of Ukraine (represented by a series of Pechenegs of the Dnieper region, from the burial grounds of the Dnipropetrovsk and Donetsk regions) was mainly characterized by a similar craniological complex, defined as mixed with a slight predominance of Caucasoid features compared to other nomadic groups.

    2. The penetration of mixed groups of the South Siberian appearance (represented by a series of cemeteries in the Kharkiv region) in the steppes of Eastern Europe, in particular, into Ukraine, was recorded in pre-Mongol time.

    3. The population that left the burial ground near the Khazar fortress Sarkel, as well as the Polovtsians (represented by a series of burial grounds of Kalmykia) showed more Mongoloid features in comparison with other groups of pre-Mongol nomads.

    4. Most of the nomadic groups of the Golden Horde era are characterized by Mongoloid features or a significant predominance of Mongoloid features. Nomads mainly had the appearance characteristic of the South Siberian or Central Asian race.

    5. In the mass of nomads of the Golden Horde there were also mixed groups with a noticeable predominance of the Caucasoid component that left the Kalinovsky burial ground and mounds in the Saratov region. The community in which the Caucasoid complex was most represented was the nomads of the Bukeevsky steppe.

    6. The bulk of the settled population of the Golden Horde was characterized by mixed craniological complexes with different ratios of Caucasoid and Mongoloid elements.
  27. Operator
    Operator 2 November 2019 15: 54 New
    -2
    Why in the article about the state of Khorezmshahs, especially the last period of its existence in the 13 century, lead a fantasy map of the so-called of the Kipchak state - given the fact that a hundred years before the events described in the article, the Khorezmshah Atsyz destroyed the Asian Kipchaks in the 1133 year and annexed their possessions to the Khorezm shah?

    And in the Arab chronicles of the beginning of the 13 century, the European part of the campaign of the Mongols refers only to clashes with Georgians, Alans, Polovtsy, Rus and Bulgars - there are no Kipchaks from the word at all.

    Russophobia, no? laughing
    1. VLR
      2 November 2019 15: 56 New
      +4
      This map is not of the Kipchak state, but of the Kipchak steppe - the historical region of Eurasia, which is the Great Steppe from the lower Danube to the Irtysh and Lake Balkhash.
      1. Operator
        Operator 2 November 2019 16: 08 New
        +1
        So write in the signature under the map that the geographical region.

        PS Kipchak this part of the Great Steppe was from Gulkin nose - from 11 to the beginning of the 13 century.
  28. Bar2
    Bar2 2 November 2019 16: 00 New
    -2
    Quote: VlR
    By the way, I was a graduate student from Tashkent (and I was a last year student) at a gathering after an inter-university conference at the end of the 80's who assured me that real Uzbeks were fair-haired and blue-eyed. And the dark-haired ones are mestizos. At the same time, he himself was not fair-haired and blue-eyed smile


    Nationality - Uzbekistan turned out in the 20th century already under the communists. In those districts of the Ferghana Valley and Mesopotamia
    -tatars
    sarts
    Uzbeks
    Tatars and Sarts were white Turkic peoples.
    Before the opium wars, the Tatars ruled China. This is the so-called Great Tartaria. Some toponyms, for example, the Tartar / Tatar Strait, remained from this name.
  29. AllBiBek
    AllBiBek 2 November 2019 16: 20 New
    +2
    Well, about the first clash between the Mongols and the Bulgars I will not rassmate (it is also known as the "Battle of Sheep", because, supposedly, after it the Bulgars exchanged captured Mongol warriors for rams at a rate of 1: 1, which, in general, quite well explains for which after the Volga Bulgaria the Chingizids were wiped off the face of the Earth with special love and tenderness), but regarding the campaign of 1229, for some reason, few of the writers notice one extremely interesting moment. Namely: Subudei-bagatur and Chepe-noyon went to it, and only Subudei returned back. Moreover, the name Jebe generally disappears from all written sources, including Iskander Anonymous. But he is not fucking mountains, Chepe is the very first nuker of Genghis Khan, he was with him when he was just starting his career in the role of not even a military leader, but just a steppe bagatur, who has nothing but a horse and weapons. It seems logical that Dzhepe died in this campaign, which is also a very, very serious minus to the karma of the Volga Bulgaria. For what remains of the same Zolotarevsky or Staroromashkinsky settlements is heaven and earth compared to what remains of the same Old Ryazan.
    1. kinolog2322
      kinolog2322 4 November 2019 02: 15 New
      0
      Albibeg, the first nuker was Boorchu, then the sons of the blacksmith Jalame and Subaei (later Bagatur), and Jabe (spear) was a captive warrior who wounded Temujin in the battle.
  30. Semurg
    Semurg 2 November 2019 17: 13 New
    +1
    There are many Genghisides so far, why not take DNA from them and conduct an analysis that will close many controversial issues.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 2 November 2019 17: 42 New
      +1
      https://elementy.ru/nauchno-populyarnaya_biblioteka/432661/Vsemirnaya_istoriya_v_chetyrekh_bukvakh
      Haplogroup C3 was later renamed C2. Mongoloid Mongolian Mongol laughing laughing
      1. Operator
        Operator 2 November 2019 18: 06 New
        +1
        According to the results of a genetic analysis performed in 2018 by Chinese scientists, the subclade of the C2 haplogroup of the Chingizids did not coincide with the C2 subclade of the so-called. "star cluster", which is currently carried by 16 million men living in Mongolia, the Chinese province of Inner Mongolia, Kazakhstan and Central Asia.

        It is possible that among the ancestors of Genghis Khan on the female side were descendants of the Black Sea Aryans, who reached Manchuria in the middle of the 2 millennium BC. and inherited the recessive genes of the bright iris of the eyes and red hair.
    2. Severomor
      Severomor 2 November 2019 19: 07 New
      +2
      Quote: Semurg
      There are many Genghisides so far, why not take their DNA and analyze

      I can be mistaken, but in Kazakhstan there are many descendants of Genghis Khan, from the word “everything”))). Kyrgyzstan is also not far behind.)))
      1. Operator
        Operator 2 November 2019 19: 30 New
        0
        The carriers of the Mongolian haplogroup С2 are 40% Kazakhs and 20% Kyrgyz.
        1. Severomor
          Severomor 2 November 2019 19: 42 New
          +3
          Quote: Operator
          Bearers of the Mongolian haplogroup

          carrier or descendant, different concepts
          1. Operator
            Operator 2 November 2019 20: 26 New
            +1
            According to Chinese scientists, the number of contemporary descendants of Genghis Khan around the world can be estimated at the level of 100000 people.
  31. Operator
    Operator 3 November 2019 01: 42 New
    -5
    Quote: Proxima
    Babur on the mother's side was Chingizid and was more proud of this than he was a descendant of Timur, therefore he called his empire accordingly

    And you need to be more careful - the baburids called themselves Turans (therefore, by the way, they used the title padishah, and not the khan).
    Mughals (from the word Magomed) they were called Indians, using the local collective name for all Muslims.
  32. kalibr
    kalibr 3 November 2019 17: 21 New
    -2
    Quote: Bar2
    Are you a specialist metallurgist who defended a candidate for metal processing? However, judge this all the time.

    You yourself wrote "I judge constantly." But unlike you, not in comments, but in articles with links to books. That is, the information is verifiable. Where are your similar works and links that you can check, eh?
  33. kalibr
    kalibr 3 November 2019 17: 25 New
    -1
    Quote: Bar2
    that’s not the point

    But you wrote - look at the crescent. Now this is not the point, is it?
  34. Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin 3 November 2019 21: 42 New
    0
    Decent material, thanks to the author!

    I would also like to say that, in general, the Mongols of Genghis Khan did a great and favorable deed for the Christian world, destroying the state of the Khorezmshahs, since even the fragments of the Khorezm army left a terrible memory of themselves in the Middle East. It was they (and not the Mongols!) Who swept through many countries of the region in a "hellish whirlwind", even helped the Saracen army to take Jerusalem for the second time in 2, and everywhere they staged terrible acts of genocide of Christians.

    You can read about one of these cases (probably the bloodiest, when tens of thousands of ordinary residents of Georgia were killed for their religious views), for example, here - "100.000 Georgian Martyrs": https://v-georgia.com/istoriya-massovogo -geroizma-ili-most-1111-muchenikov /

    Therefore, for Christians, the "Khorezmians" of Jelal al-Din are just a gang of thugs, and after their "arts" very many Christian territories of Transcaucasia firmly sided with the Mongols (which ended with the capture of Baghdad in 1258 by a united army of Mongols, Georgians and Armenians).
  35. Bar2
    Bar2 4 November 2019 13: 27 New
    +1
    Quote: ver_
    ... The Mongols appeared only in the 2nd century ... Time machines have not yet been invented .. To replace concepts - the Mughals (great) and the Mongols of the 20th century - the defamation of history .. Who could write about the 13-14 centuries of the Mongols? ...

    Mongols is a deliberate distortion of history, that great nation that conquered half of the world was called Mongols, or simply gals.
    Gala is Russian.
    http://new.chronologia.org/polemics/great_gallium.php
  36. Bar2
    Bar2 4 November 2019 13: 54 New
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    But you wrote - look at the crescent. Now this is not the point, is it?

    the fact that the Mongols converted to Islam is a fact, therefore the banner with the crescent moon is their distinguishing feature. But the conversation went about iron, how the Mongols could get so much and make so much weapon iron. As we see from the medieval images, the Mongols / Mongols did it.
  37. Bar2
    Bar2 4 November 2019 14: 19 New
    +1
    Quote: Boris55
    Again, tales about the steep Mongols who conquered half the World ...

    Pyzhikov spoke very badly about the Romanovs, that they came to power not only illegally, but also criminally, and also carried him from the current "peak of world culture" -capitalism based on individualism to Russian collectivism, so his speeches were suppressed in the most radical way. historian is a deadly profession. Our world is based on lies, and they do not like the truth.
  38. napalm
    napalm 8 January 2020 18: 15 New
    0
    Well done, the Germans easily rewrote the history of the whole continent. forced to write Letosipi to different peoples with different languages ​​in their favor, and at different times. And the Japanese came up with the word kamikaze.
  39. Farkhod mamadiev
    Farkhod mamadiev 16 March 2020 14: 34 New
    0
    It is impossible to read without proper analysis, at the beginning it is said that the total number of Genghis Khan's troops during the invasion of the lands of Khorezm did not exceed 120 thousand, and in terms of the number of tumens it goes off scale, considering how many "corps" there were, it also does not say about the battle of Jochi with the army of Temur Melik in the upper reaches of the Jeyhun, where, according to some data, up to 400 thousand soldiers participated from the side of Temur Melik, where did you put all this data?