Modernization of Soviet battleships: anti-mine caliber and torpedoes

151
Continue history interwar upgrades of battleships of the “Sevastopol” type: let's talk about the mid-caliber artillery and the mine armament of these warships.





Mine caliber: what was


At the beginning of the service was presented 16 * 120-mm guns arr. 1907 with a barrel length of 50 calibers. The history of their appearance in the Russian imperial navy this: initially it was a 120 mm / 50 Vickers gun arr. 1905, which the British installed on the armored cruiser Rurik II ordered for them for our fleet. Our admirals liked the gun, so that subsequently their production was established at the Obukhov plant: here they were considered the “model of 1907”.

These guns, mounted on battleships of the “Sevastopol” type, were equipped ... here there is some ambiguity, because 2 of projectile type existed for the specified guns, both were of the 1911 sample. high-explosive, oddly enough, had a slightly larger mass (28,97 kg), but a smaller content of explosives - only 3,73 kg. Both projectiles had an initial speed of 29 m / s. The firing range at the maximum angle of elevation 3,16-mm / 792,5 guns arr. 120 g., Comprising 50 grad., Reached 1907 cable, the rate of fire - about 20 rds. min The relatively modest value of the rate of fire is associated with separate loading, which, moreover, was also a cap type, which, perhaps, should be recognized as the only significant drawback of this artillery system. Separate loading was quite justified, but, in an amicable way, it should be made separate-sleeve. On the other hand, this deficiency was largely leveled by the location of the guns in armored casemates, and the use of liners would add weight to the ship’s artillery weapons.

Ammunition originally made 250 shots on the barrel, but was later increased to 300 vyst.

Fire control 120-mm / 50 guns was carried out using the fire control system "Geisler and K" arr. 1910 d. As far as the author could understand, the centralized fire control system, consisting of Erickson, Pollan and Heusler devices, could well be involved in the "work" of the 120-mm guns if the main caliber was not used. But in that case, when Poln's PUS and so on. 305-mm guns were involved in firing, for the 120-mm guns only “Geisler and K” remained, the capabilities of which were described in detail in the previous article. But there were no separate rangefinders to ensure the fire of 120-mm / 50 guns. For everything about all the battleships "Sevastopol" had only two range finders with 6-meter base, located on the fore and aft superstructures, and which were also to ensure the work of the main caliber of these ships.

Mine caliber artillery was positioned so that in any sector (120-130 degrees) it would be possible to fire at least four barrels. The need to maximally clear the upper deck led to the fact that the casemates were located along the sides, the height of which above sea level and so did not strike the imagination, as a result of which the tools were flooded with water. However, this deficiency was in one degree or another peculiar to all dreadnoughts of the first generations, and otherwise on the 1914 of the PMK "Sevastopol" fully responded to its purpose.

Mine caliber: what has become


As for the material part of the guns themselves, no changes have occurred here - until the very end of the service of the 120-mm / 50 guns were not subjected to modernization. But their number was reduced on the Marat to 14, and on the October Revolution - even to 10 units, so that the original 16 guns remained only on the Paris Commune. Such a reduction was caused, first of all, by the need to store ammunition for anti-aircraft artillery somewhere, and the cellars of 120-mm projectiles for this purpose were perfectly suited. As a result, the “Marat” lost two fodder 120-mm guns, and “the October Revolution, in addition to this, four more such guns in the central part of the ship. If you look at Sevastopol-type battleships from the side, their anti-mine artillery turned out to be a group of 4 guns assembled in 2, so on the October Revolution there were two central groups and they lost one barrel (located towards the stern of the battleship).

As for the ammunition, the Soviet battleships were armed with lighter, 26,3 kg projectile arr. 1928 g. Their advantage was an increased initial speed, reaching 825 m / s, and possibly better aerodynamic quality, thanks to which the firing range was increased from 76 to almost 92 cables. However, the price for this was a significant reduction in the explosive content of the projectile — from the 3,16-3,73 to just up to 1,87 kg.

Somewhat more modernization awaited the fire control system. Sometimes the author of this article had to come across the opinion that the mine caliber of all three Soviet battleships received a new Casemate test model, either 1928 or 1929. On the other hand, A. Vasilyev, in his monographs, reports that Casemate was installed only on the "October Revolution", while AV Platonov in general for all three battleships indicates the Geisler system, but for some reason different years of release.

Apparently, this was the case. On the battleship "Marat" PUS mine caliber remained unchanged, that is all the same "Geisler and K" arr. 1911


PMK battleship "Marat"


At the October Revolution, these PUS were modernized, and the improved version of the Geisler and K was called the Casemate, although it may have been a separate system. As for the Paris Commune, on it the process of improving the mine action caliber went along the path of improving the Geisler and K, including with the addition of new equipment, such as, for example, devices for synchronous data transmission of the central tip of the TsN-29. And, probably, it would not be a mistake to assume that the Paris Commune received the best anti-mine caliber PUS, and they were the worst on the Marat. Unfortunately, the author did not find at least some detailed information about what additional features the upgraded PUS had.

Approximately the same thing happened with range finders. A big advantage over the pre-revolutionary LMS was the appearance on the battleships of quite numerous additional rangefinders for controlling the fire of the main, anti-mine and anti-aircraft caliber. About КДП, serving the main caliber, it was told in the previous article. As for the mine ...

On the battleship "Marat" was established six open-range rangefinders with a three-meter base DM-3 and two more DM-1,5 - with a half meter base.

Modernization of Soviet battleships: anti-mine caliber and torpedoes

A nice photo of DM-3 - though not on the battleship, but on the destroyer of the 7 project.


The "October Revolution" received ... Alas, this is not a weak confusion here. According to A.V. Platonov on the battleship was installed two open-range rangefinders with a four-meter base DM-4, five DM-3 and two DM-1,5. But A. Vasilyev believes that the battleship received not two, but as many as four, and not just an open four-meter rangefinder, but full-fledged command-range stations KDP2-4. And here, apparently, there are inaccuracies of both respected authors.

The fact is that KDP-4, but not 4, as A. Vasiliev wrote, but only 2 are clearly visible in the photographs and drawings of the October Revolution.



Thus, it should be assumed error A.V. Platonov, who correctly indicated the number (2), but incorrectly - the type of instrument, because in fact it was the KDP-4 that was installed on the battleship, and not the open DM-4. At the same time, A. Vasiliev, having correctly indicated the KDP-4, made a mistake in their number.

Well, the Parisian Commune battleship, which, in addition to the two DM-3 and five DM-1,5, which were openly located, had as many as four KDP-4 command-range points, was predictably in the best position. However, some mysteries remain here.

The fact is that in the USSR there were several KDP-4. The simplest of them, the KDP-4 (B-12), had one 4-meter rangefinder DM-4, a stereo-tube CT-3, a center-view siren of the EP, and also two telescopic tubes of post directors. The walls and roof of the KDP were protected by 5 mm by armor plates, the weight of the KDP was 6,5 tons, and the 5 was serviced by a man, not counting the fire manager.

But, besides the above described KDP-4 (B-12), there were more advanced modifications, such as KDP2-4 (B-12-4), and further. They had not one, but two rangefinders with a base 4 m, as well as a slightly different composition of other equipment: the CT-3 stereo tube was missing on them, the center view sighting was different (VNC-2, although it is possible that the VIC-4) , the walls and the roof had a thickness of only 2 mm, but the number of staff increased to 8 people. Apparently, due to the thinner walls, the mass of the KDP remained the same, that is, 6,5 t. So, unfortunately, it is not entirely clear what type of KDP was installed on the Paris Commune: some sources give KDP-4, but for example , A. Vasilyev asserts that after all KDP2-4, but at the same time he does not bring B-12-4, but B-12!

In the opinion of the author of this article, the situation was as follows. Two KDP-4 (B-12) with one range finder and stereo tube CT-3 were installed at the "October Revolution". And on the Paris Commune, four KDP2-4 (B-12-4), or even a later version, were installed. Of course, this is just an opinion, supported by the study of photographs and schemes of ships, and there is the likelihood of error.



Be that as it may, there is no doubt that the presence of as many as four command-range posts, equipped with two (and even one!) Four-meter rangefinder each, gave the Paris Commune a great advantage over Marat and a significant advantage over The October Revolution. After all, the KDP-4, of course, could be used to ensure the firing of the main caliber, both in the event of a failure of the KDP-6, and together with them.

Further, the author should describe the anti-aircraft armament of Soviet battleships, but this is a fairly large topic worthy of a separate article. Therefore, we leave it for a separate material and proceed to the torpedo arms Marat, the October Revolution and the Paris Commune.

Torpedo armament


In addition to artillery, “Sevastopol” type battleships also received “self-propelled mines”: four torpedo tubes with ammunition in 12 torpedoes were deployed in the bow of the ships. Of course, their presence on dreadnoughts was an anachronism and was a waste of payload - however, in the period before the First World War, according to all tactical views, they were considered necessary. Torpedo tubes were installed on all the battleships and battlecruisers of Great Britain and Germany, so their presence on ships built into 1909 was, so to say, “inevitable evil”, the same as the ram on the battleships of the Russian-Japanese era .

However, it should be noted that the Russian Empire was somewhat lagging behind in the torpedo against the leading naval powers. While the latter switched to 533-mm caliber and more, the Russian navy was forced to be content with only 450-mm torpedoes. And so, during the First World War, the same British fleet was armed with an 533-mm torpedo carrying 234 kg of trinitrotoluene to a distance of just over 4 km (4 110 m) on 45 bonds, and the best domestic 450-mm torpedo arr. 1912 could hit the target 100 kg TNT at speed 43 knots at a distance of no more than 2 km. The English torpedo had a long-range mode - it could go 9 830 m at speed 31 knots. Domestic ammunition had two such modes - 5 000 m on 30 knots. or 6 000 m to 28 knots. In other words, it is possible to say that the small caliber of the domestic torpedo weapon led to the fact that in power and range it lost approximately 533-mm "compatriots" approximately twice.

Thus, it can be said that during the period between the two world wars, torpedoes of battleships of the Sevastopol type finally lost even their theoretical combat significance (they never had any practical). At the same time, as mentioned above, the leadership of the Red Forces Naval Forces clearly understood the need to strengthen the combat potential of battleships of this type. Obviously, this kind of modernization had to lead to significant overloads and the loss of speed, which was associated with them, and the latter was considered the most important tactical advantage of Sevastopol. And, it would seem, the removal of completely useless torpedo armament suggests itself - this also reduces overload, and the release of the interior, but at least under the same cellar for anti-aircraft ammunition. In addition, the need for a sharp increase in anti-aircraft weapons required an increase in crew size and additional space for their calculations. It is obvious that the "write-off" of the torpedoes of the battleships would allow freeing up at least a little space in the cockpits and cabins.

However, oddly enough, nothing of the kind was done. Of the three battleships, only the "Paris Commune" lost torpedo armament during upgrades - and even then, there is a persistent feeling that this was not done for the reasons mentioned above, but only because of the installation of the so-called "blisters" (boules), to shoot through which torpedoes would be too difficult. As for the "Marat" and the "October Revolution", the torpedo armament on them was not only fully preserved, but also improved by installing modern at that time torpedo firing controls "MAK". And all this was done for a reason, because the torpedoes of the battleships constantly improved their combat skills. So, in the period from 1927 to 1939, that is, 12 torpedo launches were made from the Marat battleship in 87 years, while 7 torpedoes were lost.

How were the Soviet admirals going to lead battleships like "Sevastopol" into dashing torpedo attacks, and against whom? For the time being these questions remain for the author the most complete riddle.

To be continued ...
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  1. +7
    26 June 2019 06: 01
    How were the Soviet admirals going to lead battleships like "Sevastopol" into dashing torpedo attacks, and against whom? For the time being these questions remain for the author the most complete riddle.
    Exactly the same as the admirals of the RIF. Yes against their ships. and destroy enemy ships if they themselves fall under a torpedo shot. It was not for nothing that the rams of armadillos and cruisers had disproportionately sunk their ships and ships than the ships of the enemy.
    1. +10
      26 June 2019 07: 21
      Nikolay - if you were informed, you could fit a couple of three articles yourself. Why not write? (Question without sarcasm) hi
      According to the article - Andrey, as always, is at his best. Serega Linnik and Andrei are the best authors on the VO. (My opinion)
      1. +4
        26 June 2019 09: 39
        Quote: Ingvar 72
        Nikolay - if you were informed, you could fit a couple of three articles yourself. Why not write?
        I fully agree with your opinion on Andrei and Sergey Linnik. But alas.
        Yes and no talent and craving for writing. Does not work.
      2. +2
        26 June 2019 19: 04
        You can also add kalibr from the history section and timokhin aa - when about iron. When there is absolutely nothing to read, you can read the comments of these authors, plus the Professor and Cherry Nine. Comments on articles are sometimes more interesting than articles. hi
        By the way, today is a good day for articles: there are simultaneously publications of Bongo and Andrey from Chelyabinsk! hi
        1. +1
          26 June 2019 20: 37
          Quote: Wildcat
          kalibr

          Vyacheslav Shpakovsky writes very well, I agree. But about the Professor and the Cherry Nine, it’s debatable, both are unfounded, and persist in their delusions. hi
          1. +2
            27 June 2019 16: 23
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            Quote: Wildcat
            kalibr

            Vyacheslav Shpakovsky writes very well, I agree. But about the Professor and the Cherry Nine, it’s debatable, both are unfounded, and persist in their delusions. hi

            I suppose that some authors may persist and persist - but how well they do it!
            hi
    2. -2
      26 June 2019 09: 05
      not only torpedo tubes were useless, but the entire battleship, and still spent money on its modernization and maintenance, it would be better to build several submarines on them,
      1. +9
        26 June 2019 09: 30
        Quote: vladimir1155
        spent money on its modernization and maintenance, it would be better to build several submarines on them,

        An old, familiar theme, going through years and centuries ... Yes In modern realities it looks like this (it has been repeatedly met): "What for us useless "Eagles" ?! This money can be used to build a cloud of RTOs !!! " laughing
        1. +4
          26 June 2019 13: 05
          Alexander, you are a little wrong. I will not talk about our floating "art platforms", the Black Sea and the Baltic had their own specifics in their use. But look at the Germans: they build submarines with the money spent on useless Bismarcks and Scharnhorst, and it is not yet known how the war would turn. The results speak for themselves.
          And about the Eagles ... If you need an Oceanic Fleet, you need Eagles, and you need aircraft carriers too. But money is also needed for them. hi
          1. +1
            26 June 2019 13: 50
            Quote: Sea Cat
            But money is needed for them.

            Yes, that’s still an axiom ... there’s no arguing. Yes For the rest ("Bismarck" - "Tirpitz" or PL-MRK) disputes will not subside for a long time. And, perhaps, it is good that no referendums are held on this issue - otherwise civil war cannot be avoided. laughing hi
            1. +3
              26 June 2019 13: 57
              That's for sure! We have a throat gnawed for a place in the queue for vodka, especially with a hangover. laughing But seriously, you need absolutely everything and as much as possible. Only, as they say in one old anecdote: "So let's drink to the fact that our capabilities correspond to our needs!" drinks
          2. +1
            26 June 2019 16: 40
            Quote: Sea Cat
            But look at the Germans: they build submarines with the money spent on useless Bismarcs and Scharnhorsts, and it is not yet known how the war would turn out.

            and how to capture Norway without a surface fleet? Yes, and the presence of powerful raiders held down the strength of the British, made them drive LK as part of convoys ... it’s another matter that the Germans didn’t have time to finish Count Zeppelin - then a couple of Bismarg-Graf would do things ... request
            1. +4
              26 June 2019 21: 31
              Yes, they would not have done anything who would have allowed them.
              1. +4
                27 June 2019 11: 23
                Quote: Sea Cat
                Yes, they would not have done anything who would have allowed them.

                1) with Zeppelin Bismarck would have gone to Brest ... request and Suofish would feed the fish ... hi
                2) and how do the British conduct air reconnaissance in the ocean, if there is an AB with fighter jets? I would have to recall AB from the Mediterranean, and then what?
                1. +2
                  27 June 2019 11: 32
                  Sergei hi Well, how many fighters are there on the "Graf" and what is the experience of the pilots? They couldn't even defend the Bismarck. And how much does he, "Count", need? You can't hide him in a hangar like a submarine. He had no chance, the British would have abandoned everything to destroy him. And the aircraft carriers from Mediterranean would not have to be withdrawn, the planes from the metropolis would have bombed a skiff.
                  1. +1
                    27 June 2019 11: 42
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    and what is the experience of the pilots?

                    for you Luftwaffe fighter pilots in 1940 did not have combat experience? Funny ...
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    well, how many fighters are there on the "Count"

                    formally 10, but the entire air group 42, so that could carry a couple of fighter squadrons ...
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    He had no chance, the British would have abandoned everything to destroy him.

                    But have they not all thrown at Bismarck? bully And Zeppelin’s move 33rd ...
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    planes from the metropolis would be bombed and a kayuk.

                    without fighter cover? Germans would have increased personal accounts ... bully
                    1. +1
                      27 June 2019 11: 54
                      for you Luftwaffe fighter pilots in 1940 did not have combat experience? Funny ...


                      I don’t know about you, but about us taking off and landing on an aircraft carrier and the same on concrete, these are "two big differences." And the Germans did not have such experience, and it does not come by itself.

                      But have they not all thrown at Bismarck? bully A move by Zeppelin 33uz ...


                      On the “Bismarck” they threw not everything, but that was enough. 33 knots, so what? Any plane is faster. Midway does not convince you of anything?

                      without fighter cover? Germans would increase their personal accounts ... bully
                      Reply


                      Do you know how the British bombed submarine parking in Lorian and Brest? Perhaps the German pilots at the same time increased their personal accounts, but the point is from this ... laughing
                      1. +4
                        27 June 2019 12: 36
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        On the “Bismarck” they threw not everything, but that was enough.

                        At Bismarck, they threw everything they could scrape. And this was barely enough - the battleship was hit in the last attack, the last attacking aircraft ... A little bit more - and the Germans would have gone into the night, and in the morning they would have been under the cover of Brest
                      2. 0
                        27 June 2019 14: 29
                        namely, the British were lucky, although their persistence in achieving the goal should be noted ... hi
                      3. 0
                        27 June 2019 23: 16
                        Ay-y-yay! The last tattered Svordifishek hit the fucking steering wheel with the last torn torpedo ... "Golden bullet!" Andrey, don’t you understand that from the moment the Bismarck went out to sea, it was doomed. Well, he could not "kick against the wind", well, nothing. Not a single Hitler submarine could do this. You know the FLEET, it's not for me to argue with you. Prien, Kretschmer, Shepke, could still somehow try to do something, but "Bismarck" - nothing. And what our colleague writes about "Graf" is more reminiscent of Mr. Fomenko's speculations. By the way, is "Bismarck" somehow present in his works?
                      4. +1
                        28 June 2019 20: 31
                        Well, he could not "kick against the wind", well, nothing.


                        Bismarck unmasked himself with a radio message, because the Germans considered themselves to be discovered, and this was not so at that time.

                        It seems to be.

                        Not a single Hitler head could do it.


                        How could it not? And what about Operation Berlin? The same two battleships in the ocean, the same Britons frantically trying to catch them. Total - 22 sunk ships, return to Brest without loss.
                        And the same commander Lyutyens, who led the last campaign of Bismarck. I note that even from that campaign Prince Eugen was able to return, and he was next to Bismarck.
                        Look at their auxiliary cruisers in that war - some even returned from the first cruise, but they were tin cans.
                        Their pilots not only could, but did. And successful.
                        You can remember the ceiling of AB "Glories" to the heap.

                        In addition, count the raids on Tirpitz. But he generally stood mostly.

                        In short, you are very wrong.
                      5. 0
                        29 June 2019 00: 19
                        "Eugen" was able to return because the British did not need it at that time, they were hunting for the battleship. In sinking "Glories" "merit" is not so much the Germans as the British themselves. I read about the actions of auxiliary cruisers at F. Ruge, they did what they could. So what, what influence did their actions have on the outcome of the war? And the actions of the entire ADVANCED fleet of Germany are mosquito bites. But the submariners almost brought the "mistress of the seas" to her knees.
                      6. 0
                        29 June 2019 12: 21
                        But the submariners almost brought the "mistress of the seas" to her knees.


                        A cruising war on communications without destroying the enemy’s fleet is not won. This is an axiom.

                        Mahan even read it.

                        Dönitz's "unshaven boys" inflicted enormous damage on the Britons, of course, but in general they were doomed from the very beginning.
                      7. 0
                        29 June 2019 12: 34
                        A cruising war on communications without destroying the enemy’s fleet is not won. This is an axiom.


                        So what am I talking about? And interestingly, Mahen can confirm or deny. Theorist - he is a theorist and remains. request
                      8. 0
                        29 June 2019 19: 55
                        So what am I talking about?


                        You wrote that the cruising war on communications almost won the submarine.

                        Theorist - he is a theorist and remains.


                        But the theory with all its flaws turned out to be true.
                      9. 0
                        30 June 2019 04: 25
                        Communications Cruising is a cruising war. A communications submarine war is a submarine war. And these, as you yourself know, are two big differences.
                        Admiral Friedrich Ruge, whom I have already mentioned, wrote well about this, if you are not familiar with his book "War at Sea 1939-45, then I highly recommend it, you will not regret it."
                      10. 0
                        29 August 2019 09: 40
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        how do you not understand that from the moment the Bismarck went out to sea, it was doomed

                        Not at all a fact. Bismarck was a modern high-speed ship, the British did not have such ships very much. So in the open sea only aircraft carriers and basic aviation could get it. As long as the quality and quantity of aviation did not increase, Bismarck could do what he wanted without any special interference. Since 1943, of course, it was free not to go into the ocean.
                        Only Norway remained.
                      11. +1
                        27 June 2019 23: 27
                        in general, this is the main tactical task of any large surface ship ..... to hide in the port .......
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        and in the morning would have been under the guise of Brest

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        and in the morning would have been under the guise of Brest
                      12. +1
                        27 June 2019 23: 28
                        On the “Bismarck” they threw not everything, but that was enough.


                        They threw everything at Bismarck that they could scrape together.


                        Andrey, what have you written here? And for what? What is the difference between your "everything that they could scrape together" from my "not all thrown away."

                        You know, such verbiage does no honor to anyone, and you again knock your forehead on the open door, trying to prove that you are the Most-of-Most. And there is no need to prove anything, you are a competent and respected person, at least in my eyes, and it is not worth for the sake of self-affirmation to sink "below the plinth." By the way, Vik Nikolaich also hinted about this to you. No offense, I hope.
                      13. +2
                        28 June 2019 12: 02
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        What is the difference between your "everything that they could scrape together" from my "not all thrown away."

                        Because the construction of the phrase "not all were thrown" can be read in such a way that they could have done more, but did not consider it necessary.
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        You know, such verbiage does not honor anyone, and again you knock your forehead on the open door, trying to prove that you are the Most-of-Most.

                        Not at all. Just your thesis
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        Andrey, don’t you understand that from the moment the Bismarck went out to sea, it was doomed.

                        doesn't seem right to me. At the same time, I don’t seek to prove my self at all, why do you mean me? feel He didn’t have to assert himself at your expense. I do not know why you took my comment this way, but I apologize to you in advance, for I did not mean anything like that.
                        As for Bismarck, his fate on my IMHO was not predetermined, and moreover, the Germans really loomed a small chance to show the British the place of hibernating crayfish, but this required delicate use of the forces at their disposal. If Bismarck had survived that campaign, and later used it together with Tirpitz + at least one of the ShIG, coordinating their actions with the submarine and aircraft, then ...
                      14. 0
                        29 June 2019 00: 30
                        If Bismarck survived that campaign, and later it was used in tandem with Tirpitz
                        ... and if only "Graf Zeppelin", and if ...

                        How many Japanese fought with their "Yamato-Mussasi", just as it would be with the German battleships. The AUGs have either herded them back to their ports or, most likely, sent them blowing bubbles from the ground in the Atlantic. Well, they have already passed, battleship time, what can you do ... hi
                      15. +2
                        29 June 2019 10: 37
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        How many Japanese fought with their "Yamato-Mussasi", just as it would be with the German battleships.

                        There is a fundamental difference. The Germans on their LCs tried to fight in the first half of the war, but the Japanese did not. The Yapi left their LCs in the battle when everything was already over, before that they only drove the LCR and the TKR, but if they sent them to war seriously at Midway or at least under Guadalcanal ... The Americans probably would have won anyway, too promresurs mighty (although ... if they lost Midway, I don’t even know, they could break theoretically), but in any case it would be much more difficult.
                        And England at the beginning of the war - well, never America
                      16. 0
                        29 June 2019 11: 54
                        That's right, blow the Americans under Midway and everything would become much more complicated, and there would be much more blood. And in relation to England at the beginning of the war I agree completely - she’s never America.)))
                      17. +1
                        27 June 2019 12: 39
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        but according to us, takeoff and landing on an aircraft carrier and the same on concrete, these are "two big differences."

                        1) who is this to us?
                        2) So Cepellin was not completed, an alternative is being discussed, so your fuse is funny ... bully
                        3) And so the Germans were able to train their personnel well ...
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        On the “Bismarck” they threw not everything, but that was enough.

                        the last straw was enough - AB from Gibraltar ... and what else could they scrape together?
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        33 knots of the move, so what?

                        would not lag behind LK
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        Midway does not convince you of anything?

                        depending on what you want to convince - I’m trying to convince you that for the battle of LCs with AB, other AVs are needed, some LCs are few ... therefore the task is very complicated, the British have few ABs, but there are many tasks for them .... hi
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        bombed submarine parking in

                        Do you also want to bomb LK and AB? bully
                      18. 0
                        29 June 2019 00: 42
                        1) who is this to us?
                        2) So Cepellin was not completed, an alternative is being discussed, so your fuse is funny ... bully
                        3) And so the Germans were able to train their personnel well ...


                        1). It’s us for us, and it’s for you. Now it is clear?
                        2). Absolutely no fuse, just such "alternatives" are no longer amusing, so squats have nothing to do. And what would have happened if ...
                        3). The Germans perfectly trained their personnel, but this took time, and the preparation of the pilot for the AUG takes much more time than the ordinary pilot of the army aviation.

                        Do you also want to bomb LK and AB? bully


                        God forbid! Our allies were quite successfully engaged in this. laughing
          3. +3
            26 June 2019 17: 14
            Quote: Sea Cat
            But look at the Germans: they build submarines with the money spent on useless Bismarcs and Scharnhorsts, and it is not yet known how the war would turn out.

            It is known - much easier for the British than in reality. Because then they did not need to invest in the top five КГХNUMX, with a corresponding PLO gain ...
            1. 0
              27 June 2019 11: 25
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              It is known - much easier for the British than in reality.

              That is - therefore, the balanced fleet is the most combat-ready, if the Germans had AB, then they could cover the submarine's exit from bases in France ....
          4. -1
            26 June 2019 20: 52
            The "useless" Bismarcks and Scharnhorsts diverted the colossal forces of the Allied fleets. The cost of finding them, escorting Atlantic convoys with battleships cost many times more than they themselves. The fleet must be balanced. Like the army
            The USSR created in 1940-41, 29 useless mechanized corps, having spent a lot of money on it, and what these mechanized corps did was basically perish!
            What is the conclusion we draw from this - we are not building tanks!
            1. +1
              27 June 2019 11: 25
              Quote: Potter
              What is the conclusion we draw from this - we are not building tanks!

              No, we are building not only tanks, but also self-propelled guns, armored personnel carriers and MZA bully
          5. 0
            28 June 2019 15: 05
            You somehow forget that the Germans weren’t building battleships, the allies would also adjust their shipbuilding programs and build even more escort ships. And I'm not talking about the fact that the battleships of the Reich fettered the enormous forces of the enemy, and the only time the sending of transatlantic convoys was interrupted was precisely the campaign of Sh and G. U-bots never achieved this.
            The Germans lacked a balanced fleet! Well, powerful aviation.
      2. +7
        26 June 2019 10: 19
        Quote: vladimir1155
        not only torpedo tubes were useless, but the entire battleship, and still spent money on its modernization and maintenance, it would be better to build several submarines on them,

        There were 212 submarines in front of the Great Patriotic War, and there were not enough minesweepers and guard watchmen. and battleships were needed, but not in the Baltic, but in the North and the Far East. The British and Norwegians inflicted irreparable damage to the fish stocks and rookeries of sea animals in the North Seas of the USSR and, as A. B. Shirokorad writes, after the appearance of the ships of the Northern Flotilla in 1933, they were blown away from our waters by the wind. in the Far East, the poaching of the Japanese stopped only at the end of WWII. Not for nothing that the Japanese are now fighting for the Kuril Islands. One of the reasons is uncontrolled access to the biological resources of the Berigov and the Sea of ​​Okhotsk.
      3. +1
        26 June 2019 10: 41
        Plus. The maintenance of obviously outdated and useless in a naval battle against battleships of ships is essentially a wreck. If on the Black Sea at least some argument is the presence of Yavuz, then in the Baltic they are floating targets.
        The only value is the three-gun turrets of the main caliber. They could be used for the construction of coastal defense battleships of the Väinemäinen type, pocket battleships of the Deutschland type, or super-heavy cruisers. Moreover, if 4 battleships of coastal defense with good air defense were used during the Soviet-Finnish war of 1939 - 1940, then no attack on the Mannerheim line would be required.
        1. +2
          26 June 2019 11: 16
          BRBO in the Baltic undoubtedly needed ships. But only the assault on the Mannerheim line, they would not have helped much. Not all the length of the line in the access zone of fire of naval artillery, + the Finns also had coastal artillery, 10-inch, which, as it were, argued with these BRBOs. The low accuracy of firing at a decent distance on well-protected pillboxes would most likely lead to a small effect with a huge consumption of ammunition.
          In the end, the embrasures of the Finnish pillboxes were riveted with direct fire by the "Stalinist sledgehammers" B-4; for this, the first samples of the KV-2 were also created, which did not have time to break through the line.
          1. 0
            26 June 2019 12: 06
            This refers to the landing in the skerries, behind the Mannerheim Line and the Saimaa SD.
          2. +4
            26 June 2019 20: 09
            In the end, the embrasures of the Finnish pillboxes were riveted with direct fire by the "Stalinist sledgehammers" B-4

            Most Finnish millionaire pillboxes had embrasures of flaming fire. So in order to rivet them with direct fire it was necessary to fire from the rear of the Finnish army!
            As you put it, rivet direct-fire pillbox, it was possible out of 45! However, this was done back in the Soviet-Finnish War. God forbid, memory of the front embrasure of DotA Pepelos, our soldiers "beat up" on the third day, but they could destroy the pillbox only after three weeks !!!
            B-4 did a good job of pillboxes with millionaires on the Maringheim line from a distance of 4 to 5 km. First, high-explosive shells swept soil from the bunker, then with concrete-piercing shells - they broke through the dome !!!

            Here she is a beauty, on display at Poklonnaya Gora (Moscow).
            1. +1
              27 June 2019 11: 28
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              B-4 coped well with the pillboxes of millionaires on the Maringheim line from a distance of 4 to 5 km

              and the Red Army was armed with the royal 12 dm howitzers that fired at 12 km and would destroy these bunkers with one hit ... request
              1. +1
                27 June 2019 14: 06
                Are you interested in the deployment speed of a 12-inch royal howitzer battery?
                Even the railway artillery of special power could not fire from the "wheels". I had to prepare a position. Sometimes it took up to a day and a half.


                For a 12-inch ground howitzer, only five-wall soil had to be removed from the house. And it still had to be delivered to the Karelian forests. Trite to pull on these 12 km.
                I will say more simply our industry during the war years was not able to put even the B-4 on wheels. Trite was not enough time and resources. But after the war, ours launched another beauty S-51
                1. +1
                  27 June 2019 14: 27
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  Are you interested in the deployment speed of a 12-inch royal howitzer battery?

                  a few days, depending on conditions - in winter closer to 5-7 ...
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  For a 12-inch ground howitzer, only five-walled soil had to be removed

                  So what? a sapper company is attached ... for transportation there were already powerful tractors ...
                  1. 0
                    27 June 2019 14: 42
                    Dear Sergey, you yourself answered my question 5-7 days. In the front line it is very, very long. And often they prepared positions not for one 12 luxury battery, but for two or three batteries of 152mm howitzers or cannons for cover. In addition, the guns do not shoot air, you need shells, charges, etc.
                    In fact, subtly hinting away from highways it’s easier to pull a pair of B-4 or B-2 batteries in tow.
                    In addition, the Red Army was armed with 210mm Skoda guns. Also stationary, but much easier.
              2. 0
                29 August 2019 11: 01
                Quote: ser56
                and the Red Army was armed with the royal 12 dm howitzers that fired at 12 km and would destroy these bunkers with one hit ...

                The imperial army was armed with only 6-inch field howitzers.
                The rest of the large-caliber weapons was limited in mobility (280 mm, 210 mm howitzers).
                In the 12-inch caliber, there were only guns, no howitzers.
                1. 0
                  29 August 2019 13: 29
                  Quote: goose
                  In the 12-inch caliber, there were only guns, no howitzers.

                  you are mistaken, it was already 2:
                  1) Vickers "In 1915, two 305-mm howitzers arrived in Russia from England, the rest seven arrived in 1916. By the spring of 1917, eight 305-mm Vickers howitzers had become part of the Taon [4] in one division of the 202nd artillery brigades. Of these they formed four batteries letter "D" "
                  2) "The 305-mm howitzer of the 1915 model is a Russian howitzer of special power. The mass of the gun is 63,9 tons. The mass of the projectile is 377 kg. The muzzle velocity is 442 m / s. The firing range is 13,47 km. The vertical guidance angle is 58 °, horizontal - 60 °. Rate of fire - 0,3 rounds per minute. The howitzer was transported by rail. "
                  1. 0
                    29 August 2019 17: 22
                    You're right. I saw these howitzers, if memory serves me, the Obukhov plant. I completely forgot about them.
        2. +3
          26 June 2019 11: 49
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          The only value is the three-gun turrets of the main caliber. They could be used for the construction of coastal defense battleships of the Väinemäinen type, pocket battleships of the Deutschland type, or super-heavy cruisers.

          Oh-ho-ho ... Do you propose to build pocket LCs or CDs for a country that was unable to even restore the finished LC? Or have you forgotten about the fate of "Frunze"?
          In short, when it was necessary to build BRBO and KR, there were no opportunities. And when opportunities appeared (at least in theory), they went to the construction of the "Big Fleet" with newer weapons systems.
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          Moreover, if 4 battleships of coastal defense with good air defense were used during the Soviet-Finnish war of 1939 - 1940, then no attack on the Mannerheim line would be required.

          Taking into account the fact that at the very beginning of the war our admirals sent the Kirov CD to the Finnish minefield, and only the impatience of the Finnish artillerymen saved the CD from being blown up - the fate of our BRBO would not be so rosy. Especially if you remember that the BF did not have any information about the Finnish coastal defense. The naval forces managed not to even notice the construction of a two-gun 305/52 battery on Krestovy Cape near Vyborg.
          1. +4
            26 June 2019 12: 42
            I am aware of all these naval improvisations.
            In order:
            1) Trotskyists of all stripes had a hand in the impossibility of restoring and completing ships in the 20s, without any reason declaring that a powerful fleet was unnecessary for the USSR. Hence the shortage of funds and the loss of personnel.
            2) LKR "Frunze" is a stillborn project. No move, no armor. Such characteristics were in one of the design variants of the US limited-displacement battleship called "mortal trap for her crew" (death trap for her crew). With Ishmael's hull, power plant of 220 thousand hp. and three towers of the MK-3-12 GK, the project grew together, but alas.
            3) It was possible to build BrBO all the thirties. These are not leaders with super-powerful and ultralight SU, not Kirov and not seven. This is a step back. You can even use boilers from the dreadnought.
            4) The large fleet consists of ships. It was not possible to create any new artillery systems in the form of three-gun turrets of 254-305-mm caliber before the war. It was easier to follow the path of not weak shipbuilders who washed down the Vanguard from the new hull and old towers. Looking for a super heavy cruiser to fight the Kents and different Kakos? Well, double the power plant, place three MK-3-12 turrets and a decent air defense system, and also cover everything with armor from 203 mm shells. There will be about 30 thousand tons of standard displacement and 33 - 34 knots. Tactically quite justified unit.
            5) The war with Finland and the Baltic Limitrophs had to be planned ahead of time. reconnaissance of the enemy’s defenses, in particular minefields and coastal battery systems. And act from the territory of Estonia. But this requires commanders.
            Unfortunately, all this could be realized in a country that retained personnel and created an engineering school. With us, she was really born during the war and died at the turn of the century.
            1. +6
              26 June 2019 12: 46
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              Hence the lack of funds and loss of personnel.

              Well, the deficit is not exactly because of the Trotskyists. The deficit was terrible in the country, and all, I emphasize, the armed forces were on starvation rations.
              And about the BRBO ... To be honest, this is a completely meaningless step, since the BRBO had and have extremely limited combat capability and can, in fact, only one thing - to shoot at the shore.
              1. +1
                26 June 2019 13: 27
                According to the Trotskyists:
                The RVS commission, which determined the value of the ships inherited from the tsarist fleet, staffed by the chairman of the RVS of the RSFSR L.D. Trotsky, mercilessly sent everything to the scrap. what came to hand. And then. that the cadres remained to prove the options for completing the Izmailov construction, developed in 1921. No one was put on conservation except the Izmail itself, and they got rid of it in 1930, by the way, under the slogan: "Let's build our new proletarian fleet!" Not a fig did not work !. It is very reminiscent of current affairs, when, instead of modernizing what is available, projection and long-term construction flourish. These are by no means "objective circumstances", but supervised sabotage (soft power in effect).
                By BrBO:
                What is required of them. A small draft provides military operations in the Baltic. In addition, in 1941 we would have had not 2 but 4 floating batteries with the possibility of entering the Neva. The lack of a powerful propulsion system and anti-mine artillery can strengthen air defense.
                By super heavy cruiser:
                We couldn’t make thick cemented armor of the proper quality in the 30s, which means battleships are a closed topic for us, and cruisers, if there are towers and mastered the level of armor production (well, with Italian help in the development of ship energy) are affordable.
                1. +2
                  26 June 2019 13: 46
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  The RVS Commission, which determined the value of the ships inherited from the tsarist fleet, staffed by the chairman of the RVS of the RSFSR, LD Trotsky, mercilessly sent everything to the scrap. what came to hand.

                  And what was to do with him? There was nothing to contain people, conduct combat training, etc.
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  And then. that the shots remained prove the variants of completion of the Izmail, developed in 1921,

                  Draft design is not a measure of staff sufficiency.
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  Nobody was put on conservation, except for "Izmail" itself, and they got rid of it in 1930, by the way, under the slogan

                  Because there was no point any longer to save it. And if you look really, then it would be possible to proceed with its restoration in the year in 1935-1936, that is, almost a quarter of a century later, as he stood on the slipway. And a full-fledged LC from it all the same would not have happened, while its restoration would have flown in a wonderful amount, because so many nodes and units would have to be done in unit quantities.
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  What is required of them. Shallow draft provides for fighting in the Baltic.

                  What are the fighting? I repeat - BRBO is only suitable for shelling the shore, it is useless even on the MAP.
                  1. +1
                    26 June 2019 14: 47
                    The coastal defense battleship or monitor is a means of landing support, he does not need some kind of super-navigational ability to go to the Bay of Biscay.
                    It was given to you (sorry for the harshness!) "A full-fledged battleship". In relation to what it should be complete? Concerning "Rodney" or concerning "Deutschland"? Or can you compare it with Iowa?
                    In the 30s we could not build a modern battleship from the word "absolutely". This does not mean that the design was not worth it (naturally, not the clumsy "Soviet Union", but something more accessible within 50 thousand tons of standard displacement). But this is training.
                    Well, what could they do?
                    The cruiser could! By the way, real players of the cruisers set up quite a bit, and they worked hard in the war.
                    So it turns out quickly (for 1939 - 1940) that cruisers can be built:
                    From "Hood", "Rhinaun", "Congo", "Dunkirk" - leave;
                    "Deutschland", "Kent", "Zara", etc. catch up and devour;
                    Against "Takao" - they are fighting (one against two, and preferably two against four).
                    This, of course, is full alternativeism, but not manilism. but the fact that carrier-based aviation (by the way, also consisting of huge formations) will turn into the main striking force (and even then - in the Pacific Ocean) then no one knew.
                    As for the staff of the 20s, you are wrong. Balkashin, Shimansky, Papkovich - they are all from there. There is simply little use in lieutenant generals if lieutenants are not recruited. We lost school, and then I had to grow everything again.
                    1. +5
                      26 June 2019 15: 30
                      Quote: Victor Leningradets
                      The battleship of coastal defense or the monitor is a means of supporting the landing, it doesn’t need some super-immersion to go to the Bay of Biscay

                      Sevastopol can support the landing as well as the BRBO.
                      The point is that we have a type LC Sevastopol, and I am completely unclear about your promise to spend large amounts of money on the construction of BRBO with the disposal of the towers of the Civil Code and something else, because Sevastopol can do everything that BRBO is only better. The only thing he cannot do is to climb the skerries, but what should our ships do there? Landing? so the range 305-mm will support the landing and from the sea. Killing enemy BRBO? So it is generally aviation should be able to do, or Esma. Well, it remains only the shelling of the shore. This LC can also, but a few kilometers closer to the coastline. Is this a fuss for this garden?
                      Quote: Victor Leningradets
                      Regarding what it should be full?

                      So, I'm sorry, it was you who spoke about the completion of Ishmael, and not me :))) Why do you need it?
                      Quote: Victor Leningradets
                      This does not mean that it was not worth designing (naturally, not the clumsy "Soviet Union", but something more affordable within 50 thousand tons of standard displacement).

                      Aha :))) SovSoyuz in 57 thousand tons - clumsy, and LC in 50 thousand tons - just a ballerina :))))) The LC had to carry 406-mm guns and be able to defend against the same projectiles, and for this it was necessary to displace more 50 KT
                      Quote: Victor Leningradets
                      So it turns out quickly (for 1939 - 1940) that cruisers can be built:

                      It is impossible. Let's be realistic - we hardly managed to make 4 KRL projects 26 and 26 bis for the war
                      1. +1
                        26 June 2019 16: 15
                        "Soviet Union" fell out for 60 thousand tons. without any priority over "Massachusetts", did not get into the docks, did not go through the sea channel from the Baltic plant to Kronstadt (read "Robinson Crusoe" at your leisure).
                        A battleship of 48-50 thousand tons. climbed into the Dock them. Veleshchinsky (or Alekseevsky) and was at the same level of combat capabilities as the "Soviet Union", but, perhaps, would have developed a couple of knots more. I wrote about this in one of the posts. It’s not a question that they couldn’t build it, but it must be designed correctly.
                        Battleships of the Sevastopol type in the Baltic could only fight in a mine-artillery position, where they would remain forever. Going out of the Gulf of Finland to meet "Tirpitz" is certainly a sight worthy of a poem. The role of floating batteries in the eastern part of the Gulf of Finland, BrBo, due to the absence of the notorious secondary battery and free waist for air defense systems, can perform more worthily.
                        Now about the cruisers pr. 26 and 26 bis. Brand new ship. The body is new, lightweight, with a large elongation. The power industry is all new (on the head one it is generally imported). Armament - new, both GK and ZA. Laid down in 1935 and 1936. They entered service in 1938 and in 1940. During this period, the aircraft Sovetsky Soyuz, the TKR Kronstadt and three light cruisers of pr.68 were laid down in Leningrad. All are brand new. Plus daddy-daddy was dragged into our nets for the completion of the Lutsev. And EM and PL are flying like shells from PPSh. And this is without the Black Sea! Wow, barely four cruisers!
                        In short, you wrote correctly in 1940, the priorities changed. The fleet faded into the background. This is the story of what was, what was. But what happened to the "Marat" is by no means an accident, but the direct inevitability of keeping the outdated ship in the Navy. And no modernizations could save the old Russian dreadnoughts, as well as their French and Italian counterparts.
                      2. +3
                        26 June 2019 17: 22
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        "Soviet Union" fell out for 60 thousand tons. without any priority over "Massachusetts"

                        The Soviet Union in the final version had a standard 59,15 and a full 65 (57 - this is an earlier version) and Massachusetts wings like a bull - a sheep. Just because Masachussets protected from force from 356-mm caliber, and the Soviet Union - from 406-mm, while our LC was also faster.
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        A battleship of 48-50 thousand tons. climbed into the Dock them. Veleshchinsky (or Alekseevsky) and was at the same level of combat capabilities as the "Soviet Union"

                        It does not happen - which we, in fact, see from European and American LC by TTX
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        Battleships like Sevastopol in the Baltic could only fight in a mine-artillery position, wherever they would remain forever

                        I'll get to that. But not now:)
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        The role of floating batteries in the eastern part of the Gulf of Finland BrBo due to the absence of the notorious PMK and a free waist for air defense weapons can perform more adequately.

                        Can not
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        Now about the cruisers pr.26 and 26 bis. Absolutely new ship.

                        Like BRBO. In which everything will be new, from the theoretical drawing and beyond
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        Energy - all new (on the head in general imported).

                        And for BRBO the same.
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        Wow-just barely four cruisers!

                        Exactly. We had to start the LK at the best of the year with 1946, but rather later - the hulls were on the stocks, but what about?
                      3. 0
                        27 June 2019 10: 47
                        Round off with some clarifications.
                        1) As the development of the working documentation and the completion of R&D, as well as due to the nomination by the customer of additional requirements for the ship, its
                        the load of the masses was constantly refined, and the displacement increased. According to 1940 estimates, the standard displacement of the battleship increased to 59841 tons.In 1941, after decisions were made to place two additional 100-mm B-54 gun mounts on the ship, to install wooden flooring on open deck areas, to inevitably install a demagnetizing device, etc. the standard displacement (while keeping the displacement stock unchanged) should have increased by at least 400-500 tons and obviously exceed 60000 tons (at least 60190 tons according to the author's estimate). At the same time, the total displacement, taking into account the decision to increase the cruising range of 14 knots with a stroke up to 7200 miles (due to the use of the largest fuel reserve provided by the project), would exceed 67000 tons (at least 67370 tons). A.M. Vasiliev Battleships of the Soviet Union type. SPb "Galeya Print" 2006
                        2) According to Project 64, the main elements of the ship were as follows.
                        Armament: 3 x 3 - 356 mm, 6 x 2 - 152 mm, 4 x 2 - 100 mm and 6 - 8 x 4 - 37 mm gun mounts
                        wok. Structural protection - from 406 mm shells, 500 kg air bombs and torpedoes. Unsinkability should have been ensured in case of defeats by two torpedoes of the bottom or three sides (provided that the unarmored side is destroyed). Full speed was determined at 28-29 knots ...
                        Compare with the requirements of pr.23: “Survival of a ship when it enters it
                        406 mm caliber shells, aerial bombs up to 500 kg and torpedoes should be sufficient
                        for combat within 1,5 hours. To be able to shoot, move and return to base when two torpedoes (min) hit the underside or three torpedoes (min) on board when an unarmored side is broken. Battleship A must be protected from the penetration of 406-mm shells through vertical armor into vital parts at distances greater than 80 cabs at heading angles of 40-50 ° and 130-140 ° g. The same through decks at all heading angles at distances of less than 200 cabs ... "
                        According to the first approximate calculations carried out, the displacement of the ship (project 64) was supposed to exceed 50000 tons. The project was developed under the leadership of A.I. Maslova. By the end of 1937, the standard displacement of the ship with a 356-mm main armor belt was 48000 tons, and the total displacement was 53000 tons. The power plant was adopted as a three-shaft, unified with pr. 23, which ensured a speed of 29 knots ... Turret weight from 3x356 -mm guns in 54 caliber was 2435 tons (more than a turret with 3x406-mm guns in 50 caliber). Vasiliev Battleships of the Soviet Union type. SPb "Galeya Print" 2006
                        It is quite clear that when replacing the requirements for the main caliber of Project 64, 3 towers of 3x406 mm can be placed on it without increasing displacement, which practically equates offensive capabilities with Project 23. Mine and anti-aircraft artillery in both projects is identical.
                        The Ave 23 battleship suffers from the same post-Tsushima syndrome, with almost complete freeboard armor against large-caliber high-explosive shells. As if it, as "Prince. Suvorov" will be rinsed by four enemy battleships and two battle cruisers, but all with land mines! Of course, it would be nice to book a freeboard, but it must be done competently, as on the Vittorio Veneto and Vanguard.
                        So Anatoly Ioasafovich coped with the task. Another thing is that admirers of monumentalism in shipbuilding wanted to see "the most powerful battleship in the world" in the USSR fleet. In their minds, this meant the biggest.
                      4. 0
                        27 June 2019 11: 24
                        Does not fit into one post.
                        Regarding our "bull" (who did not even see the sea in fact), who blindly mistook a grizzly for a sheep.
                        In terms of full speed, the ship of project 23 was supposed to be practically on par with most foreign battleships of the same bookmarking period: the English types King George V and Lyon, the American types North Carolina, South Dakota and Montana, the Japanese type Yamato ...
                        In project 23, 5-375 mm armored plates tilted at an angle of 420 ° were equivalent to 390-440 mm thick, respectively (an increase in armor resistance by 1,05 times). Our designers did not dare to give the armor plates a greater slope, since, in their opinion, this would lead to an increase in the mass of horizontal booking. On American battleships such as Iowa
                        the slope of the armor belt on 19 ° while simultaneously shielding it by boring
                        This made it possible to provide armor resistance at lower belt thicknesses (25,4 + 307,3 mm), almost the same as with project 23, and possibly even slightly higher. A.M. Vasiliev. Battleships of the Soviet Union type. SPb "Galeya Print" 2006
                        Considering that battleships of the South Dakota type are practically identical to the Iowa type in terms of booking, it can be stated:
                        - not having superiority in the course of the "Massachusetts" battleship pr.23 can not dictate the distance and bearing;
                        - the vertical armor of the "Massachusetts" is quite enough to conduct a battle against the battleship pr. 23 at distances over 120 cab. abeam and 90 cab. at angles of the order of 40 degrees;
                        - Deck armor of Project 23 does not provide protection against 1225-kg shells of "Massachusetts" at distances over 140 cab., which approximately corresponds to the far zone of free maneuvering "Massachusetts" under fire from the main battery of the battleship of Project 23.
                        Considering the clear superiority of the American battleship's MSA over the MSA of the battleship pr.23 and summarizing the maneuverable, fire and protective properties of both ships, it should be admitted that the battleship pr.23, when it encounters the battleship Massachusetts, will be in a dangerous position when fighting at long distances and not will be able to transfer the battle to favorable distances for himself.
                        And in “basketball” “Massachusetts” will easily beat him! (remember getting into a medium-caliber cellar of a very well-protected "Jean Bart").
                      5. +3
                        27 June 2019 12: 54
                        I will not answer all, for we will be round, but this
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        american battleships type iowa
                        the slope of the armor belt on 19 ° while simultaneously shielding it by boring
                        it allowed us to provide armor resistance, which is practically the same with the 25,4 project, at smaller belt thicknesses (307,3 + 23-mm)

                        Nonsense is complete, forgive me. These calculations were carried out by Nathan Okun, an American programmer, and they were based on the fact that the outer skin would remove the armor-piercing cap from the projectile. After the passage you quoted goes
                        "So, according to the American assessment, the zone of free maneuvering ..."

                        This is the most it is :)))) In fact, this is a mistake (Okun counted on the calculator for tank guns, which gave the error) and Okun himself recognized it later.
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        Considering that battleships of the "South Dakota" type are practically identical to the "Iowa" type in terms of booking

                        They are also permeable to 406-mm shells, like Iowa. By the way, here's a good article https://topwar.ru/59163-mify-ssha-linkory-ayova-chast-pervaya.html
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        Given the clear superiority of the American battleship's OMS over the battleship of the battleship 23 av.

                        Before the advent of artillery radars, the American MSA was no better, no matter how worse, SovSoyuzovskaya
                      6. +1
                        27 June 2019 14: 02
                        About screening - complete nonsense, I agree. Okun confused the anti-fragmentation belt (preventing flooding of the PTZ expansion chamber) with a full-fledged cuirass. (For a 381 mm projectile, 70 - 80 mm, for a 406 mm 75 - 90 mm), just citing the source. However, 5-degree tilt armor and 19-degree tilt armor are very different things. So at an angle of incidence of the projectile of our projectile of 20 degrees, it will be opposed by the equivalent of 457-mm armor of class "B" along the normal. Similarly to the American projectile, at an angle of incidence of 29 degrees, the equivalent of 490-mm BC armor adopted in the project will resist along the normal.
                      7. 0
                        27 June 2019 14: 33
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        So at an angle of incidence of the projectile of our projectile of 20 degrees, it will be opposed by the equivalent of 457-mm armor class "B"

                        Rather, it will be a little different - if you hit the armor sheet at an angle already in 39 hail to normal, the projectile can ricochet down the citadel, with all the ensuing (more precisely - flowing) consequences. Yes and the angle in 20 hail is far beyond the 100 cable for the guns of the Union, that is, at real distances of the battlefield the angle of deviation from the normal will be significantly less
                      8. +3
                        27 June 2019 15: 29
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In fact, this is a mistake (Okun believed on a calculator for tank guns, which gave an error) and Okun himself acknowledged it later.

                        He-he-he ... Okun then, before admitting a mistake, twice corrected his formulas. Each time the required thickness of the cladding increased, and as a result, it turned out that it was just the American aircraft that could not "remove" the cap. smile
                      9. +2
                        27 June 2019 16: 57
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        He-he-he ... Okun then, before admitting an error, double-corrected his formulas

                        So let me ask you, and when are the Americans so easily admitting their mistakes? laughing drinks
                      10. 0
                        29 August 2019 11: 10
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Aha :))) SovSoyuz in 57 thousand tons - clumsy, and LC in 50 thousand tons - just a ballerina :))))) The LC had to carry 406-mm guns and be able to defend against the same projectiles, and for this it was necessary to displace more 50 KT

                        A colleague rightly said that in the absence of production of cemented armor of large thickness, real resistance from 406 mm and even 380 mm shells could not be provided.
                        The lack of modern firing control devices put an end to firing at a range of more than 100 kb.
                        But the lack of a modern boiler-turbine installation also slowed down the entire light fleet.
                        Hence the opportunity to build ships no more than a cruiser and more than a destroyer until the problems described above are resolved, as well as submarines and aircraft.
                  2. 0
                    26 June 2019 22: 07
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

                    I repeat - BRBO is suitable only for shelling the coast, it is useless even on the MAP.


                    For such purposes, a monitor is better - the draft is less, it costs less, and a couple of 14-inches could be crammed :).
                2. 0
                  26 June 2019 17: 37
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  We couldn’t make thick cemented armor of the proper quality in the 30s, which means battleships are a closed topic for us, and cruisers, if there are towers and mastered the level of armor production (well, with Italian help in the development of ship energy) are affordable.

                  Well, the issue is controversial about armor, as well as about shipbuilding steels. A good and interesting book by V.S. Emelyanov "On the Threshold of War" is just about how they restored the lost secrets of the production of large-sized ingots of armor steel in Mariupol: "We encountered real difficulties when we started to manufacture large ship armor plates weighing up to one hundred tons .... “The casting was cast. But what happened?” The director remarked.
                  Nobody left the workshop. They were waiting for the ingot to cool and it would be possible to watch it.
                  Finally, the driver of the two-hundred-ton crane was instructed to file the crane. Through the system of ingenious devices, the ingot from the mold began to rise. And when the ingot was lowered to the floor of the workshop, everyone saw a dirty metal surface, with a lot of deep cracks and large shells. It was clear that the bar was defective ....
                  It was hard to believe that this small frail old man was able to do what the experienced specialists of the plant, who had received higher education, could not cope with ..... They opened the locking mechanism - and a stream of liquid metal rushed into the mold. The "sorcerer" crossed himself once more and, taking a bunch of candles, began to throw several of them into the mold. He did it confidently and all the time whispered something, apparently praying. I stepped on the edge of the mold, looked inside and immediately understood everything. It became painfully insulting. After all, I knew this technique and had to, I had to remember everything myself. I wanted to throw the old man away and do everything myself, but I restrained myself and decided to keep quiet for now. “These are the little things that make up production secrets.
                3. +3
                  26 June 2019 19: 16
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  By BrBO:
                  What is required of them. A small draft provides military operations in the Baltic. In addition, in 1941 we would have had not 2 but 4 floating batteries with the possibility of entering the Neva.

                  And why cut battleships for the construction of BRBO, if it would be possible to use the reserve on the towers for the Izmailov?
                  EMNIP, the question of building a monitor with 14 "guns arose both before WWII and in the early 30s.
                  1. +1
                    26 June 2019 23: 07
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    And why cut battleships for the construction of BRBO, if it would be possible to use the reserve on the towers for the Izmailov?

                    Then the construction of the 981st "Voroshilov battery" would not have required the towers of Poltava (Frunze) and the risky operation to relocate heavy railway large-caliber batteries to Vladivostok. “Many people think that the largest artillery pieces that Vladivostok has ever seen were the guns of the Voroshilov battery with two towers, each of which has three 305-mm guns. But if you look at the entire list of artillery that defended Vladivostok, it will contain railway battery No. 6, which was armed with 356-mm guns. The history of these guns stretches back to the tsarist times of Russia - from the project of building battle cruisers of the "Izmail" type. " https://aleks070565.livejournal.com/5260632.html
              2. 0
                26 June 2019 13: 42
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Well, the deficit is not exactly because of the Trotskyists. The deficit was terrible in the country, and all, I emphasize, the armed forces were on starvation rations.

                you are deeply mistaken, it was because of the Trotskyists that there was a deficit, and the mechanism of this deficit was the same as today, namely foreign concessions, that is, the Americans exported resources without paying anything to the treasury, Trotsky worked out the money that he received from Morgan through Schiff for the collapse of the Republic of Ingushetia , also frauds such as a locomotive scam, having a number of locomotive factories not loaded with orders (Kolomna, etc.), they bought locomotives for gold from the Swedes, and since the Swedes did not know how to build them, they first paid them the construction, the Swedes built factories for Russian money for the construction of steam locomotives, during the famine on the Volga, it was for gold from plundered temples, it went into the pocket of the Trotskyists and scams like the mistral. Stalin had to shoot hundreds of high-ranking thieves and traitors to the interests of the country of Trotskyites, and then hunger stopped, shortages and began to produce weapons, in just 4 years from 1937 to 1941, heavy industry appeared to save the country in the war.
              3. 0
                26 June 2019 16: 44
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                and can, in fact, only one thing - to shoot along the shore.

                and what did the Baltic and Black Sea LC do? bully
                1. -2
                  27 June 2019 23: 29
                  hid in ports
                  1. 0
                    28 June 2019 12: 07
                    Quote: vladimir1155
                    hid in ports

                    why, they shot along the shore ... The Parisian even went hiking ...
            2. +5
              26 June 2019 13: 29
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              The Trotskyists of all stripes had a hand in the impossibility of restoring and completing ships in the 20s, without any reason declaring the uselessness of a powerful fleet for the USSR. Hence the shortage of funds and the loss of personnel.

              Trotskyists were there in the last roles. In the 20s, the USSR simply did not have a heavy industry, and they took up it only after the "Military Alert of 1927". And before that, the country was eating legacy of damned tsarism - the release of funds for updating fixed assets in the heavy industry was several times lower than the minimum necessary to maintain the operability of plants. The country did not have money - the heavy industry recovery program was approaching half the budget at a cost.
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              LKR "Frunze" is a stillborn project.

              I'm not talking about LCR. I mean that in the early 30s the USSR could not even simply restore the Frunze aircraft, at least in the version of the Maratov modernization.
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              It was possible to build BrBO all the thirties. These are not leaders with super-powerful and ultralight SU, not Kirov and not seven. This is a step back.

              BRBO is armor. Where will we get it from?
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              Need a super heavy cruiser to act against the Kent and various Kako? Well, double the power plant, position the three MK-3-12 towers and decent air defense, and also cover everything with armor from 203 mm shells. Some 30 tons of standard displacement and 33 to 34 knots will be released. A tactically justified unit.

              Yeah ... in theory. But in practice - see the design history of what became project 69 as a result.
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              The war with Finland and the Baltic Limitrophs had to be planned ahead of time. reconnaissance of the enemy’s defenses, in particular minefields and coastal battery systems. And act from the territory of Estonia.

              What for? Why reinvent the essence, if even a dress of forces of the sample of December 1939, with proper command and normal use of available forces and means, broke through the Mannerheim Line in a week?
              The problem with the breakthrough was not in the technique, but in the training of the command staff and ordinary soldiers. Some planned the operation without taking into account the available intelligence about the presence of UR and tried to take the DOT line with a cavalry charge, while others did not accompany the tanks, did not know how to conduct reconnaissance and did not guess just to close a few DOT embrasures with tank hulls (standard tactics during the assault on UR, but for 1945 )
              1. +2
                26 June 2019 13: 38
                Actually, nothing to add. Is it only that the fleet in 20 had problems not with new ships, but with oil for training trips to the sea and training shells ... And it’s just terrible to remember about the army
                1. 0
                  26 June 2019 14: 18
                  Consequence of deliberate underfunding. Due to the lack of demand, the country was literally bathed in oil. Remember the conversion of "Admiral Greig" and "Admiral Spiridov" into "Azneft" and "Grozneft".
                  1. +1
                    26 June 2019 14: 43
                    Quote: Victor Leningradets
                    The consequence of intentional underfunding.

                    And where did they get him? :)))))
                    Victor, there are facts - the country after two wars, the first world and civil wars, industry collapsed, the old management systems are broken, new ones are not created or work poorly, hunger still takes place periodically. Where does the money come from? :)
                    Quote: Victor Leningradets
                    s for lack of demand the country literally bathed in oil

                    She is not in it to bathe, we have surpassed the royal 1913 g for the production of oil EMNIP somewhere in 1928 g.
                    1. +2
                      26 June 2019 15: 05
                      Oh, I do not like to discuss about empty.
                      The money system is not an engine; it is actually a speedometer or tachometer that allows you to adjust the actual operating mode. And the stability of the financial system should have attracted a "flow of foreign investment" (does it look like anything?). And there was a zilch: the flourishing of small-scale production and pumping out of raw materials. Yes, there was enough food in the cities (the urban population was reduced), and machine-building plants were interrupted by all sorts of things and squandered fixed assets. It's not just that I say my surviving grandfather then worked at the "Russian Diesel" as a lathe-borer, he managed to tell something. If it were not for the five-year plans, they would have slipped under the feet of the "civilized" neighbors. Whether it’s in the thirties "do not sleep get up curly in the workshops ringing."
                      For oil again: consumption has fallen, well, and drove for export.
                      1. +2
                        26 June 2019 15: 41
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        Oh, I do not like to discuss about empty.

                        Well, let's wrap it up
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        The monetary system is not an engine, it is actually a speedometer or tachometer that allows you to adjust the actual mode of operation.

                        And what have the monetary system? The source is the volume of production, which was not there, that's all.
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        But zilch came out: the flowering of small-scale production and pumping out of raw materials.

                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        If it were not for the five-year plans, they would have slipped under the feet of the "civilized" neighbors.

                        Victor, there is one simple thing - we could not jump from military communism into the five-year plan. Just because everything was in the announced rubble, and there was no way to clean this blockage centrally. Well, then there was a powerful school of economists-planners in the country, even though crying, and they would not have managed, I will tell you honestly.
                        The only way was to return market relations and give the industry a chance to restore the broken counterparty chains by state order, which was done. And then the NEP exhausted itself, and then, when everything was more or less settled, the turn of the five-year plans came
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        For oil again: consumption has fallen, well, and drove for export.

                        In the beginning-middle of 20-x - not persecuted, and then persecuted, yes, and what's wrong with that? Provided industrialization with imported equipment.
                      2. +1
                        26 June 2019 16: 54
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Well then there was no powerful school of economists-planners in the country, even if weeping, and they would not have done it, honestly I’ll tell you.

                        and who wrote the GOEERLO plan and made the plan for the XNUMH five-year plan? Just tsarist economists request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And then the NEP has exhausted itself

                        It is by no means simply that the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks did not want to pay for bread (and, consequently, share power), hence the well-known grain procurement crisis ...
                      3. +3
                        26 June 2019 17: 25
                        Quote: ser56
                        and who wrote the GOEERLO plan and made the plan for the XNUMH five-year plan? Just tsarist economists

                        Sergey, if you do not understand the difference between the GOELRO plan and centralized economic management, and you do not know that the 1 5th year, although it was compiled in much simpler conditions, failed miserably, then ... this is normal - you are not an economist :) )) it is not clear just why you are going to judge what you know so little about
                      4. 0
                        26 June 2019 17: 58
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        you don’t understand the difference between the GOELRO plan and centralized economic management,

                        it’s just possible to manage in different ways - you can set the direction of development, but you can distribute rolled metal / nails by tons ... the second approach inevitably leads to imbalances even in the era of computers ...
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        failed miserably

                        because plans went uphill, and resources were not given - all according to Trotsky ...
                        By the way, the growth of industry in the Republic of Ingushetia in 09-13g was no worse in terms, but without reducing consumption ...
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You are not an economist:

                        I have leadership experience ... since 2004 ... request
                      5. 0
                        26 June 2019 20: 16
                        Quote: ser56
                        you can easily manage in different ways - you can set the direction of development, and you can distribute the rental / nails for tons.

                        there is no such division. ANY goal that you set must be clear and measurable, and "development directions" are the path to disaster.
                        Quote: ser56
                        I have leadership experience ... with 2004 ..

                        Well, if in 15 years you didn’t even understand the rules for setting tasks ...
                        Quote: ser56
                        because plans went uphill, and resources were not given - all according to Trotsky ...

                        Sergey, if you are given the task of flying to Mars, and you are not given a spacecraft or resources for its creation - will Trotsky also be guilty? :)))) Or is it the one who made the plan without looking at the resources available to the performer?
                        Quote: ser56
                        By the way, the growth of industry in the Republic of Ingushetia in 09-13g was no worse in terms, but without reducing consumption ...

                        Not worse than what? :))))
                      6. 0
                        27 June 2019 11: 20
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        ANY goal that you set must be clear and measurable, and "development directions" are the path to disaster.

                        are mistaken bully a clear goal in the future is a priori impossible - as the movement moves, the future changes! but you can set the direction — for example, industrialization and urbanization, but for this it is necessary not only to build factories, but at the same time housing, to train personnel for production and provide all with food and consumption. That is why the frantic industrialization in the first five years led to a disaster in the country, and the NEP to the restoration of the economy ... request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Well, if in 15 years you didn’t even understand the rules for setting tasks ...

                        fi, refrain from analyzing your speculation ...
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        if you are tasked with flying to Mars, but you don’t give a spaceship or resources for its creation, will Trotsky be to blame? :))

                        1) of course - it was the Red Army created by Trotsky who won the GV and confirmed the Bolsheviks in power - amateur brainwashers in whom there were only cliches for which they denied reality ... request
                        2) A spaceship is not my profile, but now they are creating completely sane ion engines and onboard nuclear power plants - they will, then the flight to Mars will become a reality ... hi
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Not worse than what? :))))

                        first five-year plans - read the statistics collection for 1913 ... bully
                      7. +2
                        27 June 2019 13: 04
                        Quote: ser56
                        a clear goal in the future is a priori impossible - when moving, the future changes!

                        Congratulations, you are definitely not a manager :))))
                        By itself, the management process involves choosing a goal, ways to achieve it, taking into account available resources, and tireless monitoring of performance with adjustments to plans or the goal itself under the influence of external factors that were not taken into account during initial planning. And control is possible only if there are measurable indicators, that is, the contractor needs to explain the criteria for evaluating his work.
                        If you "managed" without it, then you are anyone, but not a manager, but a manager who did it for you, receiving "directions of movement" and laughing at you.
                        Quote: ser56
                        That is why the fierce industrialization in the first five-year plans led to a catastrophe in the country

                        fool
                        Quote: ser56
                        first five-year plans - read the statistics collection for 1913 ...

                        Right. Because% depends on the basis. THEN, in order to increase 20% output from 1000 tons of ore, you need to mine 200 tons, from above, and in order to get the same 20% from 100 000 tons - already 20 000 tons. And the percentage remains the same :)) ))
                      8. 0
                        27 June 2019 13: 21
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Congratulations, you are definitely not a manager :))))

                        I won’t even argue bully I just successfully implemented several projects ...
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        adjustment of plans or the goal itself under the influence of external factors

                        Quote: ser56
                        a clear goal in the future is a priori impossible - when moving, the future changes!

                        if it’s no secret that you’re trying to prove to me, or is the writing process a pleasure for you? bully
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Correctly. Because% depends on the basis

                        1) what a deep thought ... for 3rd grade ... bully
                        2) The basis determines the resources that are available for fulfilling the plans - the country's capabilities in 1890, 1913, 1928 and 2019 are completely different ... but the% of economic growth and living standards are quite suitable for assessing the quality of work of the country's leadership ...
                        Do you always need to explain the commonplace? bully
                      9. +1
                        27 June 2019 13: 38
                        Quote: ser56
                        if it's not a secret that you are trying to prove to me

                        Nothing for you :))) I am writing for those who read our correspondence, and I have already told you about it
                        Quote: ser56
                        I just successfully implemented several projects ...

                        I would say a little differently - you were present at their implementation :)
                        Quote: ser56
                        what a deep thought ... for the 3 class ..

                        Yes. Oddly enough, it was not available to you.
                        Quote: ser56
                        The basis also defines the resources that are available to fulfill the plans - the possibilities of the country in 1890, 1913, 1928 and 2019 are completely different ..

                        I am glad that it finally reached you. Now, with the understanding that you have received, you may be able to correctly interpret the statistical reference books described above.
                        Although - hardly :)))
                      10. -1
                        27 June 2019 13: 47
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Nothing for you :)))

                        namely - you repeated my thought on a more mundane level ... if you do not understand - this is a question of level bully
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I would say a little differently - you were present at their implementation :)

                        you are funny because you do not know the facts, but are ready to conclude ... are you complex? hi
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It turned out to be inaccessible to you

                        agreed ...
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I'm glad that it finally came to you

                        but it didn’t reach you ... in 1909-13 there was an increase WITHOUT a drop in the level of consumption (about 70%), during the years of the first five-year period it almost fell by half ... Hence famine and so on ... and the factories drove the marriage and ruined the machines - there were no corny trained personnel ... request
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You may be able to correctly interpret the statistics

                        I have been able to do this for a long time, but you showed a complete lack of understanding of the ratio of absolute and relative ....
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Although - hardly :)))
                        precisely complex ... in vain .. request
                        in a further skirmish I do not see the point - there is a flood ...
                      11. +1
                        27 June 2019 14: 39
                        Quote: ser56
                        you are funny because you do not know the facts, but are ready to conclude ... are you complex?

                        Just unlike you, I was not just present at the implementation of projects :)))) And in management positions a little more than yours :)
                        Quote: ser56
                        but it did not reach you ... in 1909-13 there was an increase WITHOUT a drop in consumption level (around 70%), during the years of the 1 five-year plan it almost fell by half ...

                        Congratulations, Sergey, you just got to the bottom of the truth :)))) It's funny that you have such a short memory that you forgot where the discussion started :)) I will remind you
                        I wrote
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Victor, there is one simple thing - we could not jump from military communism into the five-year plan. Just because everything was in the announced rubble, and there was no way to clean this blockage centrally. Well, then there was a powerful school of economists-planners in the country, even though crying, and they would not have managed, I will tell you honestly.

                        You got into an argument
                        Quote: ser56
                        and who wrote the GOEERLO plan and made the plan for the XNUMH five-year plan? Just tsarist economists

                        And so ... they got the argument laughing
                      12. 0
                        27 June 2019 14: 44
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        growth, unlike you, I was not just present at the implementation of the project

                        agreed, you know better ... bully Usually women conduct a discussion like this - they invent it themselves, and then claim that their notion is the only true one ...
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Well then there was no powerful school of economists-planners in the country

                        was! to repeat arguments not to the mind of meaning - you do not perceive other people's opinions ... hi
                    2. 0
                      29 August 2019 11: 21
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      we surpassed the tsarist 1913 oil extraction EMNIP sometime in 1928.

                      Correction:
                      This result can be considered outstanding.
                      85% of the oil production capacity under the tsar belonged to foreign companies, when they closed down, the oil industry collapsed.
                      In the 20s, they were able to launch capacities and started modern technologies for cracking and reforming oil, which, I am afraid, was not possible under the tsar in such a short time.
                      They also intensified the extraction of platinum and vanadium, which are vital in petrochemicals.
                      It is worth adding here the epic for the replacement of rubber.
                      And all this against the backdrop of a total embargo, when even laboratory equipment could not be bought.

                      But the development of the oil industry was greatly hindered by the weak capacities of heavy industry and logistics for the delivery of petrochemical products. Intensive development became possible only in 1934, when the main metallurgical clusters and pipe production were ready. As a result, the fuel balance deficit was chronic and did not keep pace with the dynamics of the release of trucks and aircraft.
              2. +1
                26 June 2019 13: 58
                On the first question, you are partly right, but the mess and the collapse in the country are a consequence of the idleness of the leadership engaged in squabbles for a place in the apparatus, and not the solution of state tasks. And then the world revolution was covered - and to hell with it, we live once (Mayakovsky has this).
                Projects such as LKR "Frunze" are a vivid illustration of the level of the remaining personnel, both engineering and military. The statement of the problem is a primitive based on misconceptions. The solution is below the level of the term student. The only consolation - the enemy will not get it - he will drown himself.
                From where from! and what about "Petropavlovsk" and "Gangut"? there is a lot of armor on them - take it and hang it up. in view of the uncriticality to the driving performance of the BrBO, it is possible to repeat the contours in the belt area. If hunting - you can paint the waist armor, as on "Vittorio Veneto".
                Project 69 is a heavy legacy of the battleship pr.25. You can’t build a cruiser (well, actually also super heavy) like a battleship. With belt armor from 283 mm shells, with boules, with a new one. a power plant not mastered on light ships with increased steam parameters, with new artillery. If you are going to take a step in front of a complex engineering product, then only one component can be revolutionary, otherwise the project will fail, CTD.
                On the breakthrough of the Mannerheim line. If it is possible to circumvent all the enemy’s preparations and use small blood to inflict not decisive losses on him, but a decisive defeat (up to annexation), then this path should be chosen.
                1. +2
                  26 June 2019 19: 25
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  On the breakthrough of the Mannerheim line. If it is possible to circumvent all the enemy’s preparations and use small blood to inflict not decisive losses on him, but a decisive defeat (up to annexation), then this path should be chosen.

                  Small blood will not work. Because if a LM breakthrough requires a lot of blood, then this means that they have been scored for combat training in the USSR. And then the level of training of the fleet will be the same as that of the infantry. And your BRBO will get out exactly on minefields and under 12 " chumadans batteries of the Cape Cross.

                  A little blood will be, if even with first red officer would decide to focus on combat training "without simplifications and replacing field training with classes." But then the level of training will be high for both the fleet and the army - and the infantry will break through the LM without banzai attacks and two months of sitting.
                  1. 0
                    29 August 2019 11: 28
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    Little blood will fail.

                    Well, how can I say, with the technical superiority of the Red Army, when regular authorized numbers were reached and heavy artillery parks delivered, LM lasted only 2 weeks.
                    That is, in accordance with the then charters, it was necessary to transfer sufficient reserves, equipment, which would take 2 months, during this time the first echelon would go through combat coordination, reconnaissance could probe the contours of the defense, and there would be a guaranteed victory.
                    And what happened in reality: to attack a mobilized army, without general superiority in forces, without the possibility of maneuver in hard-to-reach areas - this was stupidity, guaranteeing a failure of the offensive and wasted loss.
          2. +2
            26 June 2019 21: 37
            But on the Black Sea, our leaders flew right into the minefield near Constanta. Our "legendary" intelligence service has also worked.
            1. +1
              27 June 2019 10: 35
              Quote: Sea Cat
              But on the Black Sea, our leaders flew right into the minefield near Constanta. Our "legendary" intelligence service has also worked.

              There, the fleet headquarters and the NKVMF did their best - right at the time of going to sea, they made a leapfrog with a change in the composition of the strike group.
              At 18 p.m. on June 00, the strike group began to withdraw from the mooring lines and leave the Sevastopol Bay. But when the group approached the boom barrier at the observation and communication post, they raised a signal: "Exit is not allowed." Ships anchored. It turned out that at 25 h 1 min the fleet headquarters received the results of the Navy’s Commissar review of the action plan, which approved the strike group as two leaders, and the support group as a cruiser and two destroyers.

              As a result, the exit was delayed, and in order to compensate for the delay, the LD had to go at a speed greater than the maximum speed of the paravanes.
              By 1 h 47 min on June 26, the ships of the strike group approached the border of the danger zone and, slowing down to 24 knots, set paravans. Although the use of K-1 type paravanes, according to the instructions, limited the speed to 22 knots, the leaders, being late to the scheduled time, were forced to go at a higher speed. At 4 hours and 26 minutes, the leader of Moscow, who was ending, lost his right paravan 23 miles from Constanta (by reckoning, in fact, it is 2-3 miles closer, that is, being on the Romanian minefield S-9). At 4 hours 58 minutes marching on the leader of Kharkov, which also lost a paravane as a result of the explosion, the commander of the strike group, captain of the 2nd rank M.F. Romanov, who did not know about the loss of the paravane by the leader of Moscow, ordered him to take the place of the lead ship. Due to the proximity of the enemy’s shores, they decided not to replace the paravanes.
              1. 0
                27 June 2019 10: 45
                the commander of the strike group, captain of the 2nd rank M.F. Romanov, who did not know about the loss of the paravane by the leader of Moscow, ordered him to take the place of the lead ship.


                Well, reckoning, okay, and there weren’t such mistakes, but don’t report to the commander about the loss of a paravan at least with a semaphore ... And then we’re talking about the level of training of our command staff. One can only wonder how they did not lose the whole BSF at all. request
                1. 0
                  27 June 2019 19: 09
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  Well, reckoning, okay, and there weren’t such mistakes, but don’t report to the commander about the loss of a paravan at least with a semaphore ...

                  In that operation, everyone distinguished themselves. In the memoirs of Vorkov, who was then serving on the "Soobrazitelny", it was described how they, right at the exit from the harbor, lost the "Voroshilov" KR accompanied by them.
                  But here is the fairway behind. We select paravanes and again lay down on the course of rapprochement with the cruiser, which is barely visible on the dark horizon. We increase the stroke to 28 knots, but the distance is still not decreasing. We are behind. Radio communication is prohibited. The cruiser does not respond to requests with a signal light. It becomes clear that the cruiser has increased speed without informing us of this.
                  (...)
                  And suddenly the signalman Mikhail Kulikov reports:
                  “The cruiser on the right, forty-five cable ones!”
                  I throw up the binoculars to my eyes and peer intently into the morning haze.
                  June 26 at four in the morning we went on a rapprochement with the cruiser Voroshilov.

                  By the way, despite the regular mantras about the role of the native party, these memoirs in the first edition were quite honest - they had the "sevens" hulls creaking on the wave, and the sad results of the backlash raid on Novorossiysk, and the bora in Novorossiysk, when the RC almost crushed one of the EMs with its hull on the pier.
                  1. 0
                    27 June 2019 22: 44
                    [quote] In that operation, everyone distinguished themselves. In the memoirs of Vorkov, who was then serving on the "Soobrazitelny", it was described how they, right at the exit from the harbor, lost the "Voroshilov" KR accompanied by them. [/ quote]

                    Alexey, you do not find some unpleasant irony in relation to the Red Fleet in the name of the destroyer, and to what happened next. RELEVANT lost cruiser! Not a scow, not a minesweeper, but a fucking ship! The whole mediocre epic, both the Tsarist fleet and the Soviet one, looked wildly cheap, especially against the background of such submarine commanders as Lunin and Marinesko. As Vereshchagin said - "It's a shame for the state!"
                    1. 0
                      28 June 2019 10: 40
                      Quote: Sea Cat
                      Alexei, you do not find some unpleasant irony in relation to the Red Fleet in the name of the destroyer, and what happened next. COMPLETELY lost a cruiser! Not a scow, not a minesweeper, but, your mother, a whole ship!

                      What do you want from a destroyer, which entered service only on June 7, 1941? What kind of fusion in this case can we talk about? So the future best EM Black Sea Fleet "yawned" in its first exit accompanied by the CD. And in the morning he found the CD and caught up. smile
        3. +2
          26 June 2019 16: 43
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          They could be used for the construction of coastal defense battleships of the Väinemäinen type,

          Why in vain crumble metal? They also had to be modernized in the BBO, reinforcing the decks and for by installing diesel engines for 16uz hi
        4. 0
          28 June 2019 20: 34
          They could be used for the construction of coastal defense battleships.


          And what's the difference? Battleships and they were in fact.
      4. 0
        26 June 2019 11: 09
        Quote: vladimir1155
        not only torpedo tubes were useless, but the entire battleship

        mistaken, the presence of a battleship could very much help support the fire in coastal operations. The artillery there was quite powerful.
        here the 4x2 series of RI battleships seem redundant to me, but it was very useful to have one such flag in the ranks on the Black Sea and Baltic - a striking example is the fire of batteries under Sevastopol and under Leningrad
        1. -2
          26 June 2019 13: 31
          I am not mistaken, To determine the need for a particular ship, it is necessary, as we were taught, 1 to understand the task 2 to assess the situation and 3 to make a decision. Objective: coastal defense in the Baltic. The setting is a narrow strait, easily covering the Gulf of Finland with mines, shallow water almost everywhere along the coast. Solution: Large surface ships are useless, both BRBOs and cruisers and battleships. Existing battleships had to be converted into floating batteries, and moved by tugs if necessary. The Black Sea, battleships are more useful (as it turned out that the local battleship was hidden in Batumi, but at the end of the war, nevertheless, it was taken to Kerch, it slightly supported the offensive according to the principle "from a sheep, at least a shred of wool." Task: coastal defense, closing the Bosphorus .Situation: the defenselessness of large surface ships in front of aviation, and submarines, makes all battleships, BRBOs, cruisers senseless. or better for railroad traction, dividing the towers into three parts. Cover the Bosphorus with submarines. Coastal aviation ... ... North and Far East, instead of spending money on the maintenance and repair of battleships, make 3-4 small destroyers (that is, gunners or modern frigates) for catching poachers ..
          1. +1
            26 June 2019 13: 45
            Quote: vladimir1155
            Situation: the defenselessness of large surface ships before aviation, and submarines, makes all battleships, BRBO, cruisers meaningless.
            Solution: Due to the inability to move the floating batteries outside the bays, due to possible storms, turn the battleship into an unsinkable battery by moving the guns ashore, and preferably by rail, dividing the towers into three parts. Cover the Bosphorus with submarines. Shore by coastal aviation.

            Only now, the leadership of the RKKF did not have a time machine in order to find out the situation in 30 in the mid-1942s (because you need to start everything that you proposed 5-6 years before the war - otherwise we will not have time). And until 1941, the defenselessness of large surface ships before aviation was a debatable issue. And even in 1941 there was not so simple - see the survival of LC ABC in Crete under the attacks of the 8th air corps.
            Quote: vladimir1155
            North and Far East, instead of spending money on the maintenance and repair of battleships, do 3-4 small destroyers (that is, combatants or modern frigates) for catching poachers ..

            Small destroyer in the North? Monsieur knows a lot about perversions ... ©
            And at the Pacific Fleet, poachers wanted to spit on our "small destroyer". Because these poachers are state-owned, and they have either a couple of MMs, or generally "Tenryu" or some other small IJN KRL under cover.
            1. -4
              26 June 2019 14: 16
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Only now, the leadership of the RKKF did not have a time machine in order to find out the situation in 30 in the mid-1942s (because you need to start everything that you proposed 5-6 years before the war - otherwise we will not have time). And until 1941, the defenselessness of large surface ships before aviation was a debatable issue.

              in general, admirals and marshals have their own big stars and salaries, because they must foresee .... but unfortunately the Suvorovs and Saltykovs, Makarovs and Kondratenko do not always break through the parquet forts of the bastards in the general and admiral ranks. It’s not so difficult to predict the fate of Kuznetsov’s Tavkr named in honor of the scuba divers who had collapsed the fleet to the state of the Battleship’s blast right in Sevastopol, and who raised and exalted the mediocre admirals who killed the blast as a result of the blast and who give stupid orders that are incapable of moving you! battleship and take it to the shallow water ..... It’s not so difficult to understand that the whole huge TAVKR is just a mass grave, a device for receiving ranks and allowances taken from submariners experiencing the rolling of minesweepers protecting the pilots sky ..... Even before Tsushima, Admiral Makarov was offering a fleet of ships of no more than 3000 tons with a displacement, but Rozhdestvensky then understood that Admiral stars would not be enough from such a fleet ..... And Kuznetsov and Gorshkov understood this, inflating super battleships, and modern admirals too for that all are baked for ships ... and they are echoed by people who are emotional, incapable of calculations and foresight, who do not consider at least one step forward
              1. +6
                26 June 2019 15: 22
                Elzvik cruisers with a capacity of 3000 tons are a means of heroic death of the crew from a couple of six-inch shells. Remember "Novik-1" and "Svetlana". The ship must have survivability and continue to fight when damaged.
                In general, we like to laugh at the "Tigers" and praise the "Hatzers", not realizing that the crew of the "Tiger" is fighting destroying the targets, and the crew of the "Hatzer" is looking for cover and constantly thinking how it will get out of the flaming car.
              2. +4
                26 June 2019 18: 00
                Quote: vladimir1155
                but unfortunately the Suvorovs and Saltykovs, Makarovs and Kondratenko, do not always break through the parquet forts of the bastards in the general and admiral ranks

                Well Makarov made his way. And by his actions he drove his flagship EDB onto a mine can.
                Quote: vladimir1155
                Admiral Makarov before Tsushima offered a fleet of ships no more than 3000 tons with a displacement

                Yeah ... unable to escape on the high seas from the same British DBKR and unable to fight with them. Great solution, what really there.
                1. -3
                  27 June 2019 01: 40
                  Admiral Makarov is a hero, and he did not drive an armadillo into mines, but the ministry created large .... ships, without providing minesweepers, ...... like now all ships will be blown up by mines, so why build them? the situation is repeated, minesweepers are not enough, but there are plenty of cruisers ...... they are preparing a new tsushima
                  1. +4
                    27 June 2019 09: 08
                    Quote: vladimir1155
                    Admiral Makarov is a hero, and he did not drive the battleship on mines, but the ministry created large .... ships without providing minesweepers

                    Vadim, well, such a delusion even from you was difficult to expect
                  2. +2
                    27 June 2019 10: 46
                    Quote: vladimir1155
                    Admiral Makarov is a hero, and he did not drive the battleship on mines, but the ministry created large .... ships without providing minesweepers

                    Seriously? That is, this ministry was supposed to create a normal headquarters for Makarov and for Makarov, which would translate a glimpse of the admiral's "should be checked" into an order to check a suspicious place? This ministry was supposed to deal with the issues of the location of the duty forces and their use (the "Bayan" standing in the harbor was sent to the place of the battle of the MM, and the "goddess" on duty at the roadstead was left in place - as a result, the "Bayan" arrived for a nodding analysis)? And undoubtedly, the ministry should have indicated to the admiral that the regular patterned maneuvering of the EBR by the GXNUMX in the same place would not end well. Especially if it was in this place that unidentified ships were seen.
          2. 0
            29 August 2019 11: 38
            Quote: vladimir1155
            do 3-4 small destroyers (i.e., combatants or modern frigates) to catch poachers

            These ships are useless on the SF.
            We needed full-fledged EM, KR and submarines.
            For the fleet, a variant of the TKR of the Deutschland type was suggested, of course, without diesels in the first stage with 6 254-mm guns. With a moderate speed of about 25-28 knots, moderate armor up to 100 mm and acceptable seaworthiness.
            They would have washed down the displacement of the order of 10-15 kilotons, but this would have been the right ship.
      5. +8
        26 June 2019 15: 38
        Quote: vladimir1155
        it would be better if they built several submarines

        Which ones? "Decembrists" or babies? That's really really money down the drain.
        1. PPD
          +1
          26 June 2019 20: 03
          So without babies pl-absolutely not a weak amount was.
          In the Baltic, everything is over with a net.
          1. +1
            26 June 2019 20: 49
            In general, yes. EMNIP 212 submarines of various types in formation before the war.
            1. -2
              27 June 2019 10: 20
              Marinesco hero, Kuznetsov official
              1. 0
                27 June 2019 10: 48
                say what they wanted?
  2. +1
    26 June 2019 08: 25
    At the expense of 120/50 guns like "Vickers". With these weapons, the story is detective and scandalous. The fact is that guns were installed on Rurik, made at the Vickers factories, but according to Russian drawings. So these are Russian guns of English production. After it became known that the supply of guns for Rurik was not from the Naval Department, as was done earlier when ordering ships abroad, a noisy scandal arose over the transfer of secret blueprints of new guns to Vickers. It is also interesting that Kane's L45 guns were installed on the "Andrey" that entered service later. After Rurik, at first, 120/50 cannons were manufactured at the Obukhov plant for the Amur armored turret boats, 32 pieces, and only then for the Sevastopol.
    Thanks for the article, I look forward to continuing on the mechanical side.
  3. Hog
    +1
    26 June 2019 08: 45
    Well, I don’t know about torpedo "attacks", but they could be useful for "finishing off".
    But it would be better if they were removed on all the ships, in fact it was overweight (for one bow a little lightened).
  4. +4
    26 June 2019 09: 01
    But they washed down the world's longest battleship!
    Two towers in Sevastopol, and the other two on Russky Island in Vladivostok.
    1. +1
      26 June 2019 11: 51
      Quote: Victor_B
      Two towers in Sevastopol, and the other two on Russky Island in Vladivostok.

      Moreover, EMNIP, end towers (1 and 4) are on one battery, and medium (2 and 3) are on the other. So when determining the length of the LC, the distance between Sevastopol and Vladivostok can be multiplied by two. smile
  5. +1
    26 June 2019 09: 30
    thank you very much to Andrey for another interesting article
  6. +1
    26 June 2019 11: 12
    Quote: Hog
    Well, I don't know about torpedo "attacks", but they could be useful for "finishing off"

    bow torpedo tubes are convenient on a boat that can spin.
    and deploy the battleship under attack point blank? I find them useless.
  7. +1
    26 June 2019 13: 34
    Quote: vladimir1155
    instead of spending money on the maintenance and repair of battleships

    you repeat what Bismarck said literally before Germany began to build dreadnoughts in batches, but it’s strange - they didn’t listen to him
  8. 0
    26 June 2019 15: 19
    Interesting article.
  9. +1
    26 June 2019 16: 37
    Thanks to the author - curious! hi
    But the author is true to himself "The semi-armor-piercing 28,97 kg projectile contained 3,73 kg of explosive (trinitrotoluene), but the high-explosive one, oddly enough, had a slightly larger mass (29 kg)" do you consider 30g a difference? bully
    "How were the Soviet admirals going to lead battleships of the Sevastopol type in dashing torpedo attacks, and against whom?" I think the reason was different - the removal of torpedoes could be regarded as sabotage ... request
    1. -1
      26 June 2019 18: 02
      Quote: ser56
      "How were the Soviet admirals going to lead battleships of the Sevastopol type in dashing torpedo attacks, and against whom?" I think the reason was different - the removal of torpedoes could be regarded as sabotage ...

      So the removal of the PMK is also wrecking. smile
      Maybe our admirals looked back at the British, who even put TA on the "Rodney"? what
      1. +3
        26 June 2019 18: 28
        Quote: Alexey RA
        So the removal of the PMK is also wrecking.

        on the contrary, its abandonment ... bully
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Maybe our admirals looked back at the British, who even put TA on the "Rodney"

        it's hard to compare their long-range 620 and our 450mm TA ... request Although it should be noted that the Japanese relied on their long-range, but didn’t put on the LC ...
  10. +2
    26 June 2019 16: 40
    I got carried away, forgot to thank for the article. Thank you Andrey!
    In fact, everything is interesting. By the way, the episode of 120-1941 is associated with 1942-mm guns (I just don’t know Linkor or older ones). My mother was transferring 122 mm RP grenades to 120 mm for an armored train equipped with such guns. So apparently useless artillery contributed to the victory.
  11. +2
    26 June 2019 17: 55
    "for these guns, there were 2 types of projectiles, both were of the 1911 model.The semi-armor-piercing 28,97 kg projectile contained 3,73 kg of explosive (trinitrotoluene), but the high-explosive, oddly enough, had a slightly greater mass (29 kg), but less the explosive content is only 3,16 kg. Both shells had an initial velocity of 792,5 m / s .. "
    In the American Naval weapons of World War One, published by the US Naval Institute, for the 120 Vickers gun of 1905, the following shells are listed:
    Common (1907: 20.48kg, 3.55 calibres, 2.56kg. Burster, 7kg charge, 823m / sec, range 10,431m at 20 °);
    Splinter (29kg, 4.96 calibres, 3.16kg burster, 7kg charge, 731.5m / sec, range 13,359m at 20 °);
    HE (M19H: 23kg, 4.17 calibres, 2.7kg burster, 8 / 7kg. Charge, 868.7 / 731.5m / sec, range at lower velocity 10,980m at 20 °); Shrapnel (US-made: 20.41kg. Shell, 3.73 calibres, 0.29kg burster, 7kg charge, 820m / sec, range 10,425m at 16 ° 4O '); Illumination (22.13kg, 4.32 calibres, 4.8kg charge, 660m / sec, range [set by fuse] 10,425m);
    Diving (26.1kg, 5 calibers, 5.16kg burster, 0.7kg charge [used the charge made originally for the 75/50 gun],
    216.4m / sec, range [set by fuse] 2185m).
    Splinter is a high-explosive fragmentation shell. Therefore, it is not surprising that at almost the same weight as a high-explosive shell or, as it is also called, a half shell, it had less explosive. Therefore, high explosive arr. 1911 (semi-armor-piercing) with a weight of 28, 97 had a charge of 3,73 kg of explosives, and high-explosive fragmentation in 1907 with a weight of 29 kg - 3,16 kg of explosives.
    1. +1
      26 June 2019 18: 02
      Quote: Undecim
      The US Naval Institute Naval weapons of World War One, the following projectiles are listed for VIKkers 120-mm Vickers guns of the 1905 model of the year.

      Thanks for the information! But there is a nuance - I do not think that they knew better in the USA and I believe that they took data from our reference books. Then
      Quote: Undecim
      Splinter is a high-explosive projectile.

      may turn out to be just a "guesswork" of the compilers of Naval weapons of World War One who "attracted" the types of shells that exist in our country to their classification. At least in Russia and the navy, I don't remember the presence of high-explosive and separate HE shells. And so - the shells could just be of different drawings, one is worse, but at a cheaper price, say. hi
      1. +2
        26 June 2019 18: 14
        The US Naval Institute is a very serious organization that has existed since 1873. They don’t think of it at that level, especially since the British developed the gun. Unfortunately, now there is no military-technical English-Russian dictionary at hand to confirm that there are no stretches with the translation.
        Unfortunately, there are no Soviet reliable sources.
        There is a comprehensive reference

        which has all the shells since 1907 of all calibers and varieties. But it does not have 120 mm shells!
        For what reason - I can’t say, but no. Therefore, all the information on the network is a translation of English-language publications.
        1. 0
          26 June 2019 20: 30
          Quote: Undecim
          The US Naval Institute is a very serious organization that has existed since 1873. At this level, do not think out

          With all due respect to you, even such serious organizations as the intelligence services of the world think about it. What can we say about the Naval Institute?
          Quote: Undecim
          Unfortunately, there are no Soviet reliable sources.

          So it is necessary not to see the Soviet, but to watch the Russians :)))
          Quote: Undecim
          Therefore, all information in the network is a translation of English publications.

          This is a very ... strange statement. Do you really think that you know the sources of all the writers who turned to the history of artillery? :))) I immediately call you

          where there are 2 type of high-explosive shells mod 1911 r. to 120-mm / 50 guns, and how many similar descriptions in the archives?
          1. 0
            26 June 2019 20: 46
            Do you have the contents of this table?
            1. 0
              27 June 2019 09: 12
              Aghas :)))) You know my soap, drop me a test letter, I will send it to you
  12. 0
    26 June 2019 20: 03
    Once again, I ask you to take the information sources more seriously, or to use more of them.
    1. 120/50 mm Vickers cannons appeared for the first time in Russia long before the entry into service of the cruiser "Rurik 2". At the beginning of 1905, even during, as you wrote, "RYAV", thanks to the ebullient activities of the Grand Dukes Alexei Alexandrovich and Sergei Mikhailovich (even then it was "cut" with might and main) 24 such guns were purchased for the land department, 22 of them were sent to Harbin.
    2. Ammunition for 120/50 mm guns: high-explosive (semi-armor-piercing) arr. 1911, high explosive arr. 1907, high-explosive with a head fuse arr. 1907, high-explosive (semi-armor-piercing) arr. 1928, high-explosive fragmentation arr. 1911, shrapnel (American-made), lighting, diving. Source: shooting tables from 1916 and from 1939. I can provide complete data from these tables, including the numbers of the drawings of the shells, but this, in my opinion, is your work as the author of the article.
    1. 0
      26 June 2019 20: 37
      Quote: samaravega
      120/50 mm Vickers guns appeared for the first time in Russia long before the entry into service of the cruiser "Rurik 2". At the beginning of 1905, even during, as you wrote, "RYAV", thanks to the ebullient activities of the Grand Dukes Alexei Alexandrovich and Sergei Mikhailovich (even then it was "cut" with might and main) 24 such guns were purchased for the land department, 22 of them were sent to Harbin.

      Wrong. The design of these guns differed from 120-mm / 50 guns mounted on Rurik and Sevastopol
      Quote: samaravega
      Ammunition for 120 / 50 mm guns: high-explosive (semi-armor) arr. 1911 g., Explosive arr. 1907, explosive with a head fuse mod. 1907, explosive (semi-armor) arr. 1928, high-explosive fragment arr. 1911 g., Shrapnel (American-made), lighting, diving.

      And what, excuse me? You missed one type of projectile, and I omitted the American-made shrapnel. as irrelevant - I have never heard that it was in service with the LK type "Sevastopol". And the same applies to the shells of 1907.
      Quote: samaravega
      Source: shooting tables from 1916 and from 1939. I can cite complete data from these tables, including the numbers of the projectile drawings, but this, in my opinion, is your work as the author of the article.

      The fact is that the firing tables were usually signed for all the shells that can be shoved into the gun. At the same time, my work, in my opinion. is dedicated to the artillery of battleships of the "Sevastopol" class, and not to 120-mm / 50 gun ammunition in all its guises. So what is your view on what my job should be ... well, you get the idea, right? :)
      1. 0
        27 June 2019 11: 15
        Instead of disguised insults, it would be better to take a more responsible approach to what you write. You are an Author, not a "commentator", and you are more responsible. Now, point by point:
        1. The design of the guns themselves was NOT DIFFERENT IN ANYTHING. Only the methods of mounting (mounting) of these guns differed, since the guns purchased by the Land Department, in theory, were planned to be used either as serfs or as railway. Pure "cut", but the fact remains. There are specific facts against - give.
        2. Shrapnel was definitely not in the battleship's ammunition - he stupidly did not need it. But about the shells arr. 1907, diving shells - I would still recommend you to use a wider range of sources, the phrase "I never heard" does not add any pluses to you. For example, I "heard" (or rather, read from several authors) that in Soviet times, "chemical" shells were made for these guns. In both vehicles, they are not mentioned, possibly due to the fact that they were secret. There is no objective confirmation - I do not mention this type of ammunition.
        3. The phrase about "shove it into the gun" is a masterpiece. Any projectile from the M-152 and some other artillery systems of the same caliber could be pushed into the 10 mm M-2T of the KV-10 tank, which led to the failure of most of these tanks in 1941. The M-10T can ONLY fire high-explosive fragmentation and concrete-piercing shells from the M-10 on any charge, as well as sea semi-armor piercing only on charge No. 1 and below, which was reflected in the Service Manual of this tank. It was the use of a marine semi-armor-piercing projectile at full charge that most often led to the failure of the KV-2. In turn, the M-10 (also the D-1 and ML-20) could fire all 152 mm howitzer ammunition, except for a mortar high-explosive grenade, although it was easy to "push" it. Accordingly, this ammunition is absent in the vehicle of these weapons, and so in arithmetic progression at least. It is possible to cite facts about naval guns. I have given a list of ammunition from the vehicle just to induce you to use more serious sources of information, since they are in the public domain.
        4. What should be your job, you decide. But if you are already applying for serious material, you cannot replace it with information from popular science books "tugged" into the topic.
        1. 0
          27 June 2019 13: 22
          Quote: samaravega
          Instead of disguised insults, it would be better to take a more responsible approach to what you write.

          Yep How to hear and write.
          Quote: samaravega
          The design of the guns themselves was NOT DIFFERENT than. Only methods of fastening (installation) of these guns differed.

          You're lying. They differed both in the design of the gun (although not too much, but they differed) and in the design of the machine, which is why in the Russian Empire those purchased by Zakharov were called "guns of the 1st sample", and the 120-mm guns of Rurik and Sevastopol - 2- th sample. Let me remind you that, for example, the 75-mm Kane was installed on a bunch of different machines (Kane, Möller, arr 1906, etc.), but no one assigned different models to them.
          Quote: samaravega
          But about the shells arr. 1907, diving shells - I would still recommend you to use a wider range of sources, the phrase "I never heard" does not add any pluses to you.

          Yes, I do not care about your pros. And yes, I have been studying the history of the fleet already about 30 for years, and if I haven’t heard something, then this means something
          Quote: samaravega
          For example, I "heard" (or rather, read from several authors) that in Soviet times, "chemical" shells were made for these guns. In both vehicles, they are not mentioned, possibly due to the fact that they were secret. There is no objective confirmation - I do not mention this type of ammunition.

          Well, what was this shaking of air for? Can you prove that the 1907 shells were used in Sevastopol? If yes, sources in the studio. If not, then you have taken a funny position "The author is wrong, because he could not allay my fears - what if they were there? You are not working well, the author!" :)))
          Quote: samaravega
          The phrase about "shove it into the gun" is a masterpiece. Any projectile could be pushed into the 152 mm M-10T of the KV-2

          When the opponent has nothing to argue in essence, then the farce begins. In this case, you have resorted to one of the three classical methods of conducting polemics - you exaggerated my statement. Naturally, "push into the gun" meant "to use ammunition without harming the artillery system."
          So let's make a very wise person (you love to do it so much!), Argue me for imprecise wording and end it on this meaningless utterance.
          1. -1
            27 June 2019 20: 21
            1. The word "write" is correctly spelled "write".
            2. I wrote in Russian: if there are facts that these tools have differences, give THEM (facts). The barrel, breech, bolt, recoil devices, ammunition, ballistics are absolutely identical (see TC and RS). To whom is the accusation of "lying" more relevant? I did not accuse you of lying, do you want to aggravate? How do you say? "sources in the studio".
            3. How many years you have been engaged in the history of the fleet, does not apply to the topic. If you haven't heard something (or rather, haven't read it), then you've wasted those years. You can sit in one place for 50 years and not know what is happening in the next room. If a person has nothing to argue in essence, then references to "booth", "hyperbole", "service life", etc. are used. Give FACTS, sources (serious, not Potpourri series).
            4. I expressed it for the vagueness of the wordings and I will express it to all the authors until they expel me from this site. You are trying to present your articles as truth - your right, this is the right aspiration. But it needs to be justified. And not demagogy.
            1. +1
              28 June 2019 12: 31
              Quote: samaravega
              The word "write" is spelled correctly "write".

              Who would have thought? laughing
              Quote: samaravega
              Instead of disguised insults, it would be better to take a more responsible approach to what you write

              "You write" is an indicative mood, therefore it should be written through the letter "e", "write", and not "write". "Write" is when the order: "Sit down and write!"
              To this you were given a snide answer "As we hear, so we write", which, in fact, is a fairly well-known catch phrase. And you, instead of paying attention to your writing, undertook to teach me calligraphy laughing
              Bravo, that's all you are.
              Quote: samaravega
              Barrel, breech, bolt, wheel chocks, ammunition, ballistics are absolutely identical (see TS and RS).

              Yep What a bad luck, huh? :))) We are taking a vehicle ... yes, at least

              And we see that they are differentiated only by charges (combat, lowered-combat, etc.) and by type of projectiles, for cutting, but not by tools (57 and 60 calibers). And what would you risk saying that the X-NUMX-mm guns of the B-180-K and B-1-P are the same gun?
              Ballistics may be similar, and the design of the guns - different.
              Quote: samaravega
              To whom is the accusation of "lying" more relevant?

              To you.
              Quote: samaravega
              How do you say? "sources in the studio".

              Yes please. In the documents of those years, these guns differed, for example, "Description of ammunition for a 120 mm French cannon, model 1878, 120-mm cannon of the Obukhov plant. 2nd sample, 50 calibres long. 120-mm Vickers cannon, 1st sample." Comp. V. I. Alekseev; Under total. ed. A. N. Tolmacheva; Chapters artil. ex. RKKA. (For the exercise of ammunition for artillery and aviation). This time.
              And here is an article from the 1997 Technique and Armament for March
              In November 1906, the armored cruiser Rurik, which was being built for the Russian fleet, was launched in England. The cruiser was equipped with 20 120/50-mm cannons manufactured by the Vickers plant. The Rurik's cannons were very similar in design to the cannons delivered by Zakharov.

              Close, but not identical. Q.E.D.
              So, here are the sources. Now strain and refute what is written. Just don’t fantasies like "once the same ballistics means the same gun"
              1. +1
                28 June 2019 12: 36
                Quote: samaravega
                How many years you have been studying the history of the fleet is not relevant to the topic. If you haven't heard something (or rather, haven't read it), then you've wasted those years. You can sit in one place for 50 years and not know what is happening in the next room. If a person has nothing to argue in essence, then references to "booth", "hyperbole", "service life", etc. are used. Give FACTS, sources (serious, not Potpourri series).

                Yes schazzz. You, sir, have completely lost fear - first you accuse me of inaccuracies, and then tell me that I have to prove to you that I have everything exactly, and even with serious sources, and you will decide which source is serious and which is not .
                This is not how it works. Get the source, which is, and then, if you are able to refute it - voila, give us yours. Serious :))) You can not? Then turn off the water to the fountain of your eloquence and do not waste my time
                Quote: samaravega
                For the vagueness of the wording expressed and I will express to all authors

                Just learn to write first, "narrator" You are our
                1. 0
                  28 June 2019 13: 52
                  1. "The Storyteller" is for you. It is not necessary to provide information on B-1-K and B-1-P, firstly, it does not apply to the topic of discussion, and secondly, small and large cuts are a fundamental difference.
                  "The first 120/50-mm Vickers cannons were delivered to Russia at the beginning of 1905 for the Land Department. Later they were called 120/50-mm guns of the 20st sample. Then the Vickers company manufactured 120 50/120-mm guns for the armored cruiser Rurik ", And the production of 50/XNUMX-mm guns was started at the NEZ by the orders of the Marine and Land departments. Moreover, there were no significant differences in the bodies of sea and land guns, only the designs of the machine tools differed somewhat. Marine and land guns" Rurik ", manufactured by OSZ, were called guns of the II type. "
                  "The body of the gun consisted of an inner tube fastened along its entire length by three cylinders in one row, and from the middle of the gun to the breech cut - also a casing. A breech is screwed onto the casing. The lock of the Vickers piston system. Barrel length 6000 mm (50 klb). Length rifled part 5042 mm. The steepness of the grooves is constant in 30 kl. The number of grooves is 28, the depth is 0,96 mm. The weight of the lock is 82 - 84,5 kg. The weight of the barrel with the lock is 3150 kg.

                  The b / c 120/50-mm guns included shells: a) high explosive arr. 1907, weighing 29,48 kg in 3,55 kb, BB - 2,56 kg, fuses arr. 1913, 7DT, MR; b) high explosive arr. 1911 weighing 28,97 kg in 5,0 klb, BB - 3,73 kg, fuses arr. 1913, MR; c) high explosive arr. 1928 weighing 26,3 kg in 5,0 kb; BB - 1,8 kg; d) shrapnel (introduced in 1915), weight 20,7 kg, 3,73 klb with a 22-second tube or TM-6; d) diving weighing 26,1 kg in 5 klb, BB -

                  5,16 kg, HB fuse; e) lighting non-parasite weighing 23 kg in 4,3 klb with MT-6 tube; g) chemical (the Ministry of Health ordered 1916 such shells in 25000). In addition, 120/50-mm MA guns could be fired with 120/50-mm SA guns, 120/45-mm Kane guns and 120-mm French guns of model 1878 (including chemical ones) from XNUMX/XNUMX mm MA guns.

                  The charge for the 120/50 mm MA gun is 7-8 kg of smokeless powder. The charge of a lighting projectile is 4,8 kg, while a diving charge is 0,7 kg. Cartridge loading.

                  Projectile mod. 1907 - V0 = 823 m / s and range 10 431 m at + 20 °, Projectile mod. 1911 had Vo = 795 m / s and a range of 13 900 m at + 20 °. Projectile mod. 1928 - V0 = 825 m / s and a range of 17010m at + 20 °. Shrapnel - VD = 820 m / s and range 10608 m through the tube. An illumination projectile —Vo = 660 m / s and a range of 10 425 m through the tube. Diving - Vo = 216,4 m / s and range 2195 m. "
                  Please refute.
                  2. Sorry for the personal fear I lost back in 1992 in the Republic of Ichkeria. Do not you scare me.
                  3. About "shutting off the water to the fountain of eloquence" - the idea is class! I will definitely use it.
                  4. The question, in my opinion, is devoid of meaning, but my upbringing forces him to ask: can you not conduct a DISCUSSION (look in the explanatory dictionary for the meaning of this word) without insults? Or "likes" and "free" money for articles outweigh?
                2. 0
                  28 June 2019 14: 10
                  I apologize, I didn't want to write this comment, but the word "lying" is a serious accusation. You cite as proof of the incorrectness of my judgments and conclusions of the B-1-P and B-1-K guns with different grooves (shallow and deep). With all due respect to your many years of research into the history of the fleet, I have to point out: a fine-cut barrel and a deep-cut barrel are DIFFERENT barrels. I wrote (and insist) that the guns have 120 / 50mm, that the "first", that the "second" sample (I repeat) BARRELS, BOLTS, ANTI-ROOF DEVICES were IDENTICAL. Only machine tools and manufacturing plants differed. Ready to refute - please.
                  1. 0
                    28 June 2019 14: 37
                    Quote: samaravega
                    Sorry for my personal, I lost my fear back in 1992 in the Republic of Ichkeria. Do not you scare me.

                    I could tell you a lot about this, but I will confine myself to a simple statement of fact: I didn’t scare you. I’m not at all inclined to scare anyone, I usually warn you. And then I use my hands as intended - once, in this way, my office was forced to leave the veteran as many as two Chechen wars. I generally treat veterans with all respect, but if they believe that this gives them any additional rights in relation to me, then I have to disappoint.
                    On the Internet, I never even warn anyone at all - what's the point? I apologize, but it is frankly stupid to go far to distant land for statisfacija, especially since the alternatively gifted in the internet is unmeasured, and I have only two hands.
                    So I did not frighten you, and did not even warn you - I simply stated that you do not fear to break the generally accepted framework of discussion.
                    Quote: samaravega
                    A question that seems to me devoid of meaning, but my upbringing forces him to ask: and you cannot conduct a discussion (see the explanatory dictionary for the meaning of this word) without insults?

                    Oh, oh, well, it is necessary, what we suddenly became cultural. Well, I explain how to conduct a cultural discussion. It looks like this:
                    "Dear author! In my opinion, your article contains a number of erroneous theses, including:
                    1) ...
                    2) ... etc. "

                    Where did you start?
                    Quote: samaravega
                    Once again, I ask you to take the information sources more seriously, or to use more of them.

                    и
                    Quote: samaravega
                    I can cite complete data from these tables, including the numbers of the projectile drawings, but this, in my opinion, is your work as the author of the article.

                    For some reason, you didn't remember the culture of discussion, you decided to teach me stories here, but I am not obliged to endure such an attitude towards myself. Further to the topic of "discussion" (did not fit into one comment)
                    1. 0
                      28 June 2019 14: 55
                      Quote: samaravega
                      It is not necessary to provide information on B-1-K and B-1-P, firstly, it does not belong to the topic of discussion, and secondly, small and large cuts are fundamental difference.

                      First of all, this has a DIRECT relationship to the argument you gave. B-1-K and B-1-P - these are two different tools, but the firing tables on them are one. And they differ only for small and large cuts. That is, ALL B-1-K and B-1-P large-cut guns have the same firing table, with the small one - the same shooting table, but with correction for the angle of elevation. And this irrefutably testifies to the fact that different in design tools can have a single vehicle.
                      So clearer? If not, then just quote you the same equipment and weapons
                      Ballistics and ammunition at B-1-K and B-1-P completely coincided.

                      As evidenced by the presence of a single vehicle for them. I can send if you want.
                      Quote: samaravega
                      I wrote (and insist) that the guns have 120 / 50mm, that the "first", that the "second" sample (I repeat) BARRELS, BOLTS, ANTI-ROOF DEVICES were IDENTICAL.

                      And I, in response, told you that these tools have DIFFERENT naming, and that sources, even those you cite, contain
                      Quote: samaravega
                      And in the bodies of sea and land guns significant there were no differences

                      that is, there were differences, but not significant.
                      And what do we have? And we have guns that have some difference in the design, which took place in the documents under different names. And this, in fact, is more than a weighty reason to consider your statement.
                      Quote: samaravega
                      The design of the guns themselves is no different than what

                      false. Or at least debatable. You betray him for Truth In the Last Instance and offer me
                      Quote: samaravega
                      Ready to refute - please.

                      I do not need to refute anything, and my source and yours - they all confirm that I was right. And if you do not agree with this, then it is necessary to provide YOU with the source, from which it follows that the design of the instrument (not the machine tool, you mentioned it separately) was identical.
                      There is a simple rule - the proof lies on the person who made the statement. I confirmed my statement, it's your turn.
  13. +1
    4 July 2019 12: 03
    How were the Soviet admirals going to lead battleships like "Sevastopol" into dashing torpedo attacks, and against whom? For the time being these questions remain for the author the most complete riddle.

    They were not going to drive battleships into dashing torpedo attacks, but they were going to use torpedoes to drown already damaged and enemy ships that lost their combat effectiveness in artillery battle if the destroyers did not hit their destroyers for any reason.