Soviet battleships between wars

237
This series of articles is devoted to the service of battleships of the “Sevastopol” type during the interwar period, that is, between the First and Second World Wars. The author will try to figure out how justified was the preservation of three, in general, already outdated battleships in the composition of the Red Army Naval Forces. To do this, it will be necessary to determine the range of tasks that these ships could solve, to remind dear readers the scope of modernization each of them underwent, and, of course, to reflect on the extent to which these upgrades were sufficient to perform the specified tasks.





As is known, 4 of the ship of the type “Sevastopol” was inherited from the Russian Empire of the USSR, of which 3 were in more or less satisfactory technical condition. The fourth battleship, Poltava, renamed 1926 in Frunze, was the victim of a strong fire in 1919. The ship did not die, but was heavily damaged: the fire almost destroyed three steam boilers, the central artillery post, both nasal logging (lower and upper), power station, etc. As you know, in the future there were many plans to restore it in one capacity or another, once even started repairing the ship, abandoning the case six months later, but the ship never returned to service. therefore history "Frunze" we will not consider.

As for “Sevastopol”, “Gangut” and “Petropavlovsk”, this was the case with them. As is known, the Russian Imperial Navy never ventured to use Sevastopol-type battleships for their intended purpose, so that in the First World War, ships of this type did not take part in hostilities. Another thing - the civil war.

In the years of civil


After the Baltic Fleet's famous “Ice Campaign”, the battleships anchored throughout 1918, while the loss of their crew reached catastrophic values ​​- sailors diverged along the fronts of the civil war, along river flotillas, and just ... diverged.

In 1918, Finnish troops laid siege to the fort Ino, located in 60 km from St. Petersburg. It was the newest fortification, which forms the mine-artillery position of the direct cover of the "city on the Neva", which was armed with the latest 305-mm guns. The Soviet leadership wanted to leave this fort under its control, but, eventually, obeyed the instructions of Germany, who ordered the Finns to surrender the fort - however, the remnants of the garrison blew it up before leaving.

There were still plans to keep Ino by force, it was supposed that the fleet could help, but only one battleship, Gangut, was completed for the fighting. However, he never came to Ino. Then "Gangut" and "Poltava" were transferred to the wall of the Admiralty plant, putting on conservation (where, in fact, "Poltava" and burned). Then, when the existing detachment of ships (DOT) was formed, “Petropavlovsk” was included in it from the very beginning, and later - “Sevastopol”. Petropavlovsk was even lucky enough to take part in a real naval battle that took place on 31 in May on 1919. On that day, the destroyer Azard was supposed to conduct reconnaissance of Koporsky Bay, but came across the superior forces of the British there and retreated to Petropavlovsk covering it. British destroyers, in quantities of 7 or 8 units. rushed in pursuit, and were fired upon by a battleship that consumed 16 * 305-mm and 94 * 120-mm shells, while the distance fell to 45 cables and even less. There were no direct hits - a long absence of combat training had an effect, but still a few fragments landed in British ships, and they were honored for the best retreat.

Subsequently, Petropavlovsk shelled the rebellious Krasnaya Gorka fort, using 568 * 305-mm projectiles. At the same time, the battleship itself did not receive any damage, but it got to Sevastopol, which, although it did not participate in this operation, was in the sector of firing of the fort's guns. Subsequently, Sevastopol shelled the White Guard troops during their second assault on Petrograd. Then their combat activity ceased until the very 1921, when the crews of both battleships fell into the form of counter-revolution, becoming not just participants, but instigators of the Kronstadt insurgency. In the course of the unfolding hostilities, both battleships were actively exchanged with the forts that remained loyal to the Soviet power, and also fired on the battle formations of the advancing Red Army men.


Damage to the battleship "Petropavlovsk", received by him during the suppression of the Kronstadt insurgency.


"Petropavlovsk" spent 394 * 305-mm and 940 * 120-mm shells, and "Sevastopol" - 375 and 875 shells of the same calibres, respectively. Both battleships were damaged by return fire: for example, 1 * 305-mm and 2 * 76-mm shells hit the Sevastopol, as well as an aerial bomb, and the shells caused a fire. The ship killed 14 people. and 36 was injured.

Return to service


As mentioned above, “Petropavlovsk” was damaged only during the Kronstadt insurgency, and “Sevastopol” in addition to this - also from the “Red Hill”. Unfortunately, the author, unfortunately, does not have a complete list of damages, but they were relatively small and made it possible to return the battleships relatively quickly.

However, the most negative financial situation in which the Soviet Republic was in had the most negative impact on their return. In 1921, the composition of the RKKF was approved, and in the Baltic it was planned to leave only 1 dreadnought out, 16 destroyers, 9 submarines and 2 gunners, 1 mine patrol, 5 mine boats, 5 miners, miners-minors-minors-minors, 26 miners, and miners In this case, the head of the Naval Forces of the Red Army, E.S. Pantserzhansky in his address to seamen from 14 in May 1922 explained that the only reason was the strongest reduction in military spending caused by "extremely serious financial difficulties." In 1921-22 it came to the fact that even such a stripped-down fleet could not be provided with fuel for going out to sea, nor with shells for shooting practice, and the personnel of the RKKF were reduced to 15 thousand people.

Strange as it may seem, but in the best condition Petropavlovsk, which was the most intensively used during the Civil War years, became Marat after the Kronstadt insurgency. It was he who joined the Baltic Sea Naval Forces (SMBM) in 1921, taking the “vacancy” of the only battleship of the Baltic Sea, and from 1922, he participated in all maneuvers and exits of the fleet.

Only in June, the 1924 of the USSR Revolutionary Military Council and the Supreme Council of the National Economy submitted to the Council of People's Commissars a memorandum in which they proposed to proceed to the first, in effect, shipbuilding program of the USSR. In particular, the Baltic was supposed to complete the 2 light cruiser (Svetlana and Butakov), the 2 destroyer, the submarine, and return the 2 battleship to service.

It must be said that “Sevastopol”, which became the “Paris Commune”, was registered in the training squad since 1922, and even took part in training maneuvers in 1923. But this participation consisted only in the fact that the battleship, standing on the roads of Kronstadt, provided radio communication for the SMBM headquarters with ships at sea. As a full-fledged combat unit, the Paris Commune returned to the fleet only in 1925. But the October Revolution - the Gangut, which stood the entire civil war against the wall and had no combat damage, undertook to put it in the last place: entered into service only in 1926.


Marat and Paris Commune, 1925


I must say that during this period the tasks of the battleships in the RKKF were not yet clearly formulated for the simple reason that tasks for the RKKF as a whole have not yet been defined. The discussion of the naval concept of the USSR began in 1922, with the discussion “Which RSFSR needs a fleet?”, But at that time no final conclusions were made. The theorists of the “old school”, adherents of a strong linear fleet, on the one hand, did not want to deviate from the classical theory of sea ownership, but on the other hand, they understood that the creation of a powerful linear fleet in the current conditions is utopian. Therefore, the discussions did not yield much result, and soon turned to unconditionally important, but still secondary issues of the interaction of diverse forces, that is, surface ships, aviation and submarines. Moreover, the most important postulate about the need for a balanced fleet at that time was almost not disputed by anyone, although supporters of the mosquito fleet were already back then.

Of course, the sailors had already proposed the tasks that the fleet would have to provide in the near future. For example, Deputy Chief and Commissioner of the Naval Forces of the RKKF Galkin and Acting Chief of the Staff of the RKKF Vasiliev in the “Report of the Command of the Naval Forces to the Chairman of the RVS of the USSR M.V. Frunze on the status and development prospects of the RKKFlot ”proposed for the Baltic Fleet:

1. In the event of a war with the Big Entente, the defense of Leningrad and the support of operations against Finland and Estonia, which required full possession of the Gulf of Finland before the meridian of Fr. Seskar and “controversial possession” - before the Helsingfors meridian;

2. In the event of a war with the Little Entente, full possession of the Baltic Sea, with all the tasks and advantages arising from this.

However, all this remained at the level of proposals and opinions: in the 20-ies there were no answers yet as to why the country needed a fleet and there was no concept of naval construction. The need to preserve the battleships in the fleet were much simpler and mundane considerations. That the country still needed the navy, everyone understood, and the Sevastopol-type battleships were not only the strongest of the ships at our disposal, but also were in quite acceptable technical condition, and were put into operation relatively recently. Thus, they represented a sea force that it would be strange to ignore. And even such an opponent of the linear fleet as Tukhachevsky considered it necessary to preserve them in the fleet. In 1928, he wrote: “Considering the existing battleships, they should be preserved, as an emergency reserve, as an additional tool for the duration of the war.”


Battleship "Marat"


Thus, in 1926, the three Baltic battleships returned to service and no one disputed their need for the fleet. However, in the next, 1927, the question arose about their large-scale modernization. The fact is that, although the same Galkin and Vasiliev believed that our battleships "... of the Marat type, despite the 10-year-old since the construction, still represent units of modern order," but many of their flaws including “with regard to booking, weakness of anti-airborne artillery and protection against underwater explosions” was well recognized.

Modernization plans


I must say that the modernization of the battleships of the “Sevastopol” type also caused a very lively discussion. The main emphasis - areas of modernization, were placed at the "Special Meeting", held on March 10 1927 g, chaired by the Chief of the Naval Forces of the Red Army R.A. Muklevich. The discussion was based on the report of a prominent naval specialist V.P. Rimsky-Korsakov, who noted many of the shortcomings of the Sevastopol-type battleships, and ways to increase their combat capability. In general, the meeting came to the following conclusions.

1. The armor protection of the battleships is completely inadequate, and needs strengthening: this deficiency cannot be completely eliminated, but the optimal solution would be to bring the thickness of one of the armored decks to 75 mm. The weakness of the 76 mm roofs and the 75-152 mm barbets of the main-caliber towers were also noted.

2. The firing range was considered insufficient, according to V.P. Rimsky-Korsakov should have been brought to the 175 cable. In this case, the firing range of "Sevastopol" on the 2,5 miles would have surpassed that of the best British ships of the type "Queen Elizabeth" - at that time, experts believed that it reaches the 150 cable. In fact, it was a somewhat premature judgment, because initially the towers of battleships of this type provided an elevation angle of 20 degrees, which allowed only firing on 121 cables. Subsequently, the elevation angle was increased to 30 degrees, which allowed the British battleships to shoot 158 cables, but this happened already in 1934-36. V.P. Rimsky-Korsakov offered 2 possible ways to increase the firing range: creating a lightweight (about 370 kg) projectile equipped with a special ballistic tip, or much more serious work on upgrading the towers, bringing the elevation angles to 45 degrees. The latter, in theory, was to provide the range of "classic" 470,9 kg shells in 162 cable, and lightweight - up to 240 cable.

3. The increase in the range of the main caliber guns and the increase in the distance of the battle should have been provided with corresponding improvements in the fire control system. New, more powerful rangefinders should be installed on the battleships, and they should be placed higher than it was done in the original project, besides, the battleships should have been provided with the most up-to-date shooting control devices that could be obtained. It was also deemed necessary to equip the battleships with at least two hydraulic seaplanes.

4. In addition to the firing range, the main caliber also needed to increase the rate of fire, at least one and a half, and better - twice.

5. Mine caliber: 120-mm guns, placed in casemates relatively low above sea level, and having a range of up to 75 cable were considered obsolete. V.P. Rimsky-Korsakov advocated replacing them with 100-mm guns placed in two-gun towers.

6. It also required a high-quality anti-aircraft artillery. However, V.P. Rimsky-Korsakov understood very well that reinforcement of anti-mine and anti-aircraft artillery was only advisory, since the fleet and industry simply did not have suitable artillery systems.

7. The seaworthiness of the battleships was also considered insufficient - in order to resolve this issue, it was recommended to increase the height of the freeboard in the bow of the ship in one way or another.

8. Coal as the main fuel of the battleships was considered by all the participants of the meeting to be a complete anachronism - the transfer of the battleships to oil was considered by the meeting participants as a decided matter.

9. But there was no unambiguous decision on the anti-torpedo protection of the battleships. The fact is that the refusal of coal, and the protection that coal pits provided, reduced the already frankly weak PTZ of Sevastopol type battleships. The installation could have been saved by the installation of a boule, but then it would have to be put up with a decrease in speed. And on this discussion participants were not ready to decide: the fact is that speed was considered one of the most important tactical advantages of the battleship. Understanding that Sevastopoli, due to the combination of combat qualities, seriously loses to modern foreign 21-node battleships, the sailors viewed speed as an opportunity to quickly get out of battle if circumstances did not turn out in favor of the RKKF, and for obvious reasons, than likely.

10. In addition to all the above, the battleships needed such “trifles” as new radio stations, chemical protection, a floodlight device, and much more.

In other words, the meeting participants came to the conclusion that the battleships of the “Sevastopol” type in order to maintain their combat capability required a very, very global modernization, the cost of which, on first reading, was approximately defined as 40 million rubles. on one battleship. It is obvious that the allocation of funds in this amount was extremely dubious, almost impossible, and therefore R.A. Muklevich ordered, along with the "global", to work out the "budget" option of upgrading battleships. In this case, the transition to oil heating was considered mandatory in any case, and the speed, (obviously - in the case of the installation of boules) should not have decreased less than 22 knots.

To be continued ...
237 comments
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  1. +5
    14 June 2019 18: 17
    It is possible to draw an analogy that LK in the 20-30s is like AV Kuznetsov - and it’s a pity to leave and why not and where ... request
    1. +9
      14 June 2019 18: 38
      not at all. as floating batteries are completely gone. found where to "carry". as battleships they are not born ah
  2. +6
    14 June 2019 18: 39
    Thanks to Andrey for a new interesting series of articles.
    1. +6
      14 June 2019 19: 49
      You're welcome!
  3. +7
    14 June 2019 18: 48
    Thanks for the article Andrew hi If I am not mistaken at the beginning of the article there is a photo of the battleship "Marat". The battleship "Marat", even being partially destroyed, fired artillery fire as a floating battery. His tools only functioned, since only the name remained from everything else.
    1. +2
      14 June 2019 19: 47
      Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
      If I am not mistaken at the beginning of the article there is a photo of the battleship "Marat".

      That's right :))) hi
      Quote: Aristarkh Ludwigovich
      The battleship "Marat", even being partially destroyed, fired artillery fire as a floating battery.

      Yes, there was such a story in his biography
    2. +4
      14 June 2019 22: 43
      Shallow depths saved! And the battleship turned out to be a non-self-propelled training and artillery ship "Volkhov" (1950). Decommissioned from the fleet in 1953.
  4. +1
    14 June 2019 18: 56
    And comrade monarchists scream that de in tsarist Russia everything was more than modern, and then the Bolsheviks came and destroyed everything. And then there comes out. It turns out already at the time of construction, the ships were not a fountain. It turns out that the Bolsheviks could not destroy what was not there. Namely, the modern fleet and industry for the construction of this fleet.
    1. +12
      14 June 2019 19: 49
      Quote: MegaMarcel
      It turns out that at the time of construction the ships were not a fountain.

      At the time of laying the ships were very good, but interruptions in the allocation of funds for construction led to the fact that they entered service in the era of super-dreadnoughts.
      1. 0
        14 June 2019 20: 14
        quod erat demonstration drinks
      2. -3
        15 June 2019 14: 19
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        At the time of laying the ships were very good, but interruptions in the allocation of funds for construction led to the fact that they entered service in the era of super-dreadnoughts.

        Yes, it is a constant sadness of fans of the Russian / Soviet / Russian fleet.

        The uv author looks at the TTZ of 1906, looks around, sees the first serial dreadnoughts - Bellerophon, Nassau, South Dakota, the Satsuma are generally cut off from the japs, the French are building dantons for some reason, - and he says, normally, progressively, here such pluses, such minuses.

        Russophobes and such people rush to him in comments: so-so, the 4th quarter of 1914, what do we have there?

        There we have Lizzy, adopted by the fleet on 22.12.1914/3/XNUMX, on the same day as the Gangut. XNUMX more in completion, one on the slipway (Malaya).
        There we have 4 Koenig in the ranks, two Baerns under construction. There, in our ranks, the first Derflinger, two under construction.
        There we stand in the Nevada building and laid the second series of the standard, Pennsylvania.
        There we have two Congo in formation (two more are launched, are being completed), standing at the wall of Fuso (the second on the slipway).
        There we have only Courbet, but the three Normandies have already been launched.

        And also.

        The Americans in August 1914 shot their 16 "/ 45 Mark 1 and began to explain to each other for patriotism and money. As a result, this weapon appeared not in New Mexico, as was supposed, but only in Colorado (Maryland) in 1921.
        In 1915, the British began talking about LKR "admiral" class. Hood appeared in 1920.
        OYaS (ordinary Japanese schoolchildren) began to save money in a piggy bank to present to their beloved Emperor Mutsu (an application for Nagato appeared in 1915, in the draft budget for 1916).

        So, Russophobes say. Explain to Lizzy for your Obukhov guns and 23 knots. How many LK / LKR remained after the Washington Treaty, with which Seva could show at least something other than a heroic death.
        1. +9
          15 June 2019 15: 30
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          Yes, it is a constant sadness of fans of the Russian / Soviet / Russian fleet.

          In fact, all this looks like "sadness" of fans only in the imagination of Russophobes
          Are fans wondering what? The level of domestic naval art, and for its evaluation should compare the ships at the time of laying. Russophobes are not interested, so they replace one question with another and ask:
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          ak-so, 4 quarter of 1914 of the year, what do we have there?
          There we have Lizzy

          Well Lizzy, so what? And if Sevastopol was not put into operation in 1914, but in 1912, for example, what, didn’t there be a Lizzie 1914, or what? :))) Regardless of when the 305-mm battleship was introduced, super dreadnoughts with 380-381-mm guns it became obsolete. As Koenig, by the way, and Kaiser, etc. etc. What is the tragedy? laughing
          The tragedy is observed only among Russophobes, who well really want to present the Russian / Soviet naval thought to the lagging behind, but without distortion
          1. +2
            15 June 2019 15: 34
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Russian / Soviet naval thought in lagging behind, but without juggling fails

            Bravo! drinks
          2. -2
            15 June 2019 16: 39
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Fans are interested in what? The level of domestic naval art, and for its assessment should be compared ships at the time of laying.

            This is for those who can freely handle time)) Others are interested in the composition of the fleets for a specific date and their combat readiness (here is a separate conversation).
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The level of domestic naval art

            Russophobes believe that the level of naval art, manifested in the TTZ (more precisely, technical thought), is good, but the level of industry (and finance) is much more important. Therefore, the Dreadnought, not Satsuma and not South Dakota, so Lizzy, not Nevada.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Regardless of when the 305-mm battleship was introduced, with the advent of superdreadnoughts with 380-381-mm guns, it became obsolete. Like Koenig, by the way,

            I think you understand very well that they are outdated in different ways. You didn’t take a pass about Washington, but the ships
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            with whom Seva could show at least something other than a heroic death.

            it was not so little. It is customary to talk about the mass suicides of Japanese schoolchildren who were taken away from Mutsu, drank to South Dakota and aborted H3 / G3, but it is equally important that France and Italy, not to mention Germany, Turkey and others, had some kind of junk, like Dantonov and Regina Elena. 10 Japanese battleships exceeded 10 Italian and 10 French combined without any chance at all.

            If we forget the Dantons with elens as a nightmare, and put in a row the "junior" Washington ships: the British of the Iron Duke and KD5 types, the Americans to Nevada, the French of the Brittany and Courbet types, the Italians of the Conti Di Kovur and Andrea Doria types, then we will see that Koenig or Derflinger is quite good for the second row, so that anyone humiliates them - that's only for the Japanese. But Seva is very hard.
            1. +5
              15 June 2019 17: 27
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              This is one that can freely handle time))

              As part of the task - the treatment with time is absolutely correct.
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Others are interested in the composition of fleets for a specific date and their combat readiness.

              You are welcome! Just masters Russophobes do not need to interfere with flies with meatballs, and remember that their question is another question :)
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Russophobes believe that the level of naval art, manifested in the TTZ, (more precisely, technical thought) is good, but the level of industry (and finance) is more important.

              This is also an interesting question.
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              o where the level of industry (and finance) is more important. Therefore, the Dreadnought, not Satsuma and not South Dakota, therefore Lizzie, not Nevada.

              Yes. But fans of the domestic fleet are well aware that at this level the Russian Empire was losing to the United States and England, and Germany, it is not a secret. But if you look at the sea powers that are next in power, then the gangut even approximately corresponds to the French Courbet and the Italian Conte di Cavour.
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              I think you are well aware that they are obsolete in different ways. You did not take a pass about Washington

              Spinned. In general, I am writing a series of articles about this, have you not forgotten? :)))
              1. 0
                15 June 2019 17: 57
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                But if you look at the next most powerful sea powers, then the gangut even at the time of delivery roughly corresponds to the French Courbet and the Italian Conte di Cavour.

                Uh-huh.
                If we assume that RI survived to Washington, we will see that it managed to rearm at least for dreadnought, unlike others.

                So with 4 Seva, 4 Empresses and maybe a couple of Ishmaels, RI becomes the best of the others, except the Big Three and the Germans who received the red card. Which reflects the level of its industry quite adequately, even beyond expectations.

                Only need to stop, finally, to compare the Republic of Ingushetia with the sea powers))
                1. +4
                  15 June 2019 19: 27
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Which reflects the level of its industry adequately enough, even beyond expectations.

                  Somehow, approximately - nevertheless the industry of the Russian Empire could claim only 5-second place in the world
                  1. +1
                    16 June 2019 02: 01
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    claim only 5th place in the world

                    There were a fairly dense group of RI, France, AB, Italy and Japan. So we see Japan pumped over by any measure (according to the LC at the date of the treaty - the second fleet of the world, after the 23rd year the Americans are not so much behind, no 5: 3, but lime is far ahead, there is no equality with the Americans over the LC until the 42nd year). Russia is relatively strong (for some reason), France and especially Italy are relatively weak (but Normandy and Karacholl would have changed this situation no longer in Russia's favor, they are still much stronger than Izmailov).
                  2. -1
                    16 June 2019 21: 44
                    Not in the world, but in Europe, and this is GDP, the Russian Empire is agrarian. as it is customary to say now, the power, and in industrial production -14 place (In Europe)
                    1. +4
                      17 June 2019 08: 25
                      Quote: Sergey K
                      and in industrial production -14 place (In Europe)

                      Either you confuse relative and gross indicators, or just rave.

                      RI for 1913 had about 6% of world industrial production. Germany is about 20, Britain - 15, States - 35. It was bad with the high-tech of that time, but the shaft of cast iron is big, as in present-day China. There is nothing special to be proud of, the population of Russia at that time was more than 2 times more than the regular population, so the relative indicators are less by an order of magnitude, but from the point of view of battleships the gross are more important.
                      1. -2
                        17 June 2019 16: 53
                        It's about gross rates. Do you happen to rave? AND MOST IMPORTANT, when this population of the Russian Empire or the USSR was twice as large as the USA. percent on 8-10 yes, but not at all twice, forgive me for God's sake, but this is nonsense.
                      2. 0
                        17 June 2019 17: 03
                        For reference. I was once in the early 1980s dealt with the topic: "Stalinist repressions in the Red Army" (Lord, forgive me, I was an idiot), data as of January 1, 1982 - the population of the USSR is 278 million people, the USA is 236 million people, the PRC - about 1.2 trillion. people the number of those sentenced to death in 1981 is the USSR-51 people, the USA -642 people, the PRC-about 5000 people.
                      3. +2
                        17 June 2019 17: 10
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        It's about gross rates. Do you happen to rave?

                        No.
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        AND MAIN when this population of the Russian Empire

                        Census of the Republic of Ingushetia in 1897 - 125,7 million
                        US Census of 1890 - 63 million; 1900 - 76 million
                        Materiel.
                      4. -3
                        17 June 2019 17: 19
                        January 1 1985 of the USSR-284 million US -240 million MAT. PART!!!!!!!
                      5. +4
                        17 June 2019 17: 28
                        And what do I care until 1985?
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        RI for 1913 ... the population of Russia at that time was more than 2 times more than the regular population of Russia

                        At the expense of "more than" I was wrong, I admit.
                      6. 0
                        17 June 2019 17: 44
                        Put a plus - RESPECT
                      7. +3
                        17 June 2019 17: 39
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        January 1 1985 of the USSR-284 million US -240 million MAT. PART!!!!!!!

                        Sergey, forgive me, do you even think what you are writing? What does the population of countries on 1985 have to do with this? :))) USSR - never the Russian Empire, we have a lot of things happened, including booms of fertility and large losses in WWI and WWII.
                        The cherry nine, of course, slightly went too far, but the point is that in 1910 the population of the Republic of Ingushetia is 160 million without Finland and 163 million with Finland, while in the USA at that time there lived a little more than 92 million.
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        The Russian Empire is agrarian. as it is accepted now to say power, and in industrial production -14 place (In Europe)

                        Have you ever thought what nonsense you are writing. And if you do not want to think, then please list the 13 European countries that were ahead of RI in the industry :))))))
                      8. +1
                        19 June 2019 20: 11
                        In the USA, the population from memory is either before a citizen (1861) or after (1865) -23 million people, they can’t be guided for over a century and a half; 150 million people entered the USA and received citizenship.
                      9. +1
                        17 June 2019 17: 44
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        Sorry for God's sake, but this is nonsense.

                        This is not nonsense, but a commonplace ignorance of the materiel and your inability to work with numbers.
                        How much of the population of RI lost in the PRC? USSR civil and WWII? What do you think that these tens of millions of people who died in 1914-1945 did not affect the demography of the USSR to 1982-1985?
                        And in the US, such losses and was not close
                      10. +1
                        17 June 2019 17: 54
                        I agree - 50 million people in Europe and from 10 to 20 in RI from the fall of 1918 to the spring of 1920 losses from the "Spanish" - PMA and Civil in RI total - nonsense compared to the flu epidemic.
                      11. 0
                        17 June 2019 18: 47
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        losses from "Spanish flu" - PMA and Civilian in RI, total - nonsense compared to the flu epidemic.

                        What's the difference? It is important that they go from above, and 27 million dead in WWII cover all this with a vengeance.
                      12. -4
                        17 June 2019 18: 13
                        The USA is not on Mars, they also suffered significant losses, only the "Holodomor" from October 1929 to September 1, 1939 claimed the lives of 15,5 million US citizens.
                      13. 0
                        17 June 2019 18: 40
                        The United States, one might say in the fall of 1918, was very, very lucky, the only way for demobilized American soldiers to go home was by sea, 5-7 days. Bringing the flu virus fresh is simply impossible.
                      14. The comment was deleted.
                      15. +3
                        17 June 2019 18: 46
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        The USA is not on Mars, they also suffered significant losses, only the "Holodomor" from October 1929 to September 1, 1939 claimed the lives of 15,5 million US citizens.

                        It is terrible to even be interested in the source of this fantasy. Yes, Americans in terms of population there do not meet the ends, perhaps - by the millions, but for 15,5 million is something.
                      16. 0
                        17 June 2019 18: 52
                        I have a hobby: to collect the American press in any form during the inter-war period (1918-1939) in any form. newspapers, magazines in electronic form, etc.
                      17. +1
                        17 June 2019 18: 58
                        Andrei, I'm sorry I don’t know your middle name, the materials you publish are very interesting and informatively rich, I respect your work, you should not take my comments in vain. I am without negative emotions
                      18. 0
                        18 June 2019 10: 46
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        In vain you treat my comments that way. I have no negative emotions

                        Nuuu, you are quite severe to opponents :))) However, I must admit, the nine you yourself provoked.
                        And to "bury the hatchet of war" and return to a constructive discussion, I, just like a pioneer, "always ready!" drinks
                      19. 0
                        18 June 2019 18: 35
                        I am always FOR a peaceful exchange of information.
                      20. 0
                        18 June 2019 10: 27
                        Apparently they entered the killed Indians, and maybe Maya and the Incas.
                  3. +1
                    18 June 2019 10: 41
                    6th place. The narrow-eyed qualitatively passed after the victory over RI, RI spike on clay feet under the control of a half-witted king.
                    1. +1
                      18 June 2019 18: 42
                      Even Sweden produced more bicycles, motorcycles and steam locomotives than RI, and for some positions not at 20 or 50% and not at times, but by orders of magnitude. Before the WWII, the Russian Army and Navy were categorically not ready for war, and even large-scale. 5 million rifles for 15 million soldiers, that is, one rifle for three, which does not remind you of anything: fairy tales about WWII. only about the Red Army.
                      1. +1
                        18 June 2019 18: 59
                        Two main differences between RI and the USSR, there is not that RIA from the Red Army:
                        The first main thing is the military-industrial complex (military-industrial complex, and indeed industry itself and its structure)
                        Second - Persistence coefficient (a specific calculation parameter, if I’m interested in advising officers of the General Staff, they studied this topic in military science classes and will tell you in great detail) in the WWI for the Russian soldier in relation to the German soldier - 0,2, during the war he even fell although it seems where else to fall, in WWII in 1941 -0,85, in 1944 -1,2. There, another coefficient is superimposed on it, you yourself understand the Wehrmacht soldier and the Reichswehr soldier as they say in Odessa - two big differences.
                      2. 0
                        18 June 2019 19: 42
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        The second is the coefficient of persistence (a specific calculation parameter, if anyone is interested I can advise the officers of the General Staff, they studied this topic in military science classes. And they will tell you in detail) in the WWI for the Russian soldier in relation to the German one - 0,2, during the war he even fell although it seems to fall somewhere else, in WWII in 1941 -0,85, in 1944 -1,2.

                        Forgive, but these coefficients are some kind of nonsense. That is, in the PRC, when the Russian soldiers fought with a shortage of cartridges and shells, but held, not letting the Germans inland, and retreating only when there were no other options, it means 0,2. And in the Second World War, when, along with the mass prowess of our soldiers, there existed, alas, such shameful phenomena as the Vlasovites and Khivis (and in large quantities!) It means 4,5-6 times higher ....
                        In the furnace such factors.
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        Even Sweden produced more bikes, motorcycles and locomotives than RI

                        Well, if you count bikes and steam locomotives together, maybe more. And if the locomotives are separate? :)))))
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        5 million rifles on 15 million soldiers, that is, one rifle for three, neither of which does not remind you

                        Rifles were provided at mobilization rates. And you, excuse me, either do not understand the question at all, or distort it in the strongest way
                        The mobilized Russian army counted just 5 million. And 15 million is the total number of WWI called up for all the years, and they should not be compared with mobile reserves, but with mobile reserves + production volumes + procurement volumes abroad.
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        fairy tales about WWII. only about the Red Army.

                        If you compare the number of rifles on 22.06.1941 to the total number mobilized during the Second World War (34,5 million), you will get not only one rifle for three, but one for five, probably.
                      3. 0
                        18 June 2019 19: 49
                        Once again you are reacting too emotionally, believe me such thoughts did not even cause you to have negative emotions. All my thoughts are the exchange of information and that’s it. At the expense of this coefficient - 1981 ZVO in my number 7 (not sure) and VIZH 1987-88-89. There are a number of very interesting articles on this topic.
                      4. 0
                        18 June 2019 20: 04
                        These are German numbers (only they have the opposite) in one of the VIZ issues there is even an article in it, the Germans admit their key mistake - in Operation Barbarossa they applied a coefficient of 5, just like in the First World War, but it actually turned out to be lower and everything went wrong, but of course intelligence let them down (very mildly). Show Stalin at the May 1, 1941 parade of the T-34 and KV, maybe there would be no war. Abwehr in full about ..... Xia, still look for such stupid, as theirs General Staff generally decided to break into the country about which they do not know anything. All their knowledge is that the old Russian army with sticks plus 8800 BT and T-26 tanks is waiting for them on the other side (by the way, real numbers from the Abwehr documents). Such a Polish army of the 1939 model with cavalry and several hundred light tanks of English assembly is only three or four times more and that's it. And the Germans say pedants, just show someone in some place.
                      5. +1
                        18 June 2019 20: 37
                        And on the other side, an armed, motivated army was waiting for them - the world's best tanks KV-1 was the best tank in the world from November 1939 to September 1942. The only army in the world that was armed with massively automatic (ABC-36) and self-loading (SVT-38, -40) rifles, and German soldiers with this anachronism were 98K. Of course, it’s shocking for the Germans that they are not the most civilized and educated nation, but the Russian Bolsheviks, I can imagine how this infuriated the Nazi bonzes.
                      6. +1
                        18 June 2019 21: 01
                        WWII and WWII are two mirror wars in WWII from 75 to 93% of German soldiers fought on the eastern front, well, 7-25% on the western front, turn these numbers into the First World War and see the truth about the war.
                        In the first on the eastern front, 350 of thousands of German and Austro-Hungarian soldiers died, on the western —1,5 million. I won’t give figures for the second, everyone knows them anyway, I wrote so much that they’ll tear me apart now.
                      7. +1
                        18 June 2019 21: 04
                        Moreover, all liberals and monarchists, in general the truth is quite an unpleasant and not tasty thing.
                      8. 0
                        18 June 2019 21: 15
                        Guys, just don’t vomit. 33 years ago, white-skinned men in uniform were stitching me from pieces, they forgot to really put the spleen and left lung back. I’ll go to the seams already.
                      9. +1
                        19 June 2019 17: 05
                        Che, in the last couple of days, I was twice demoted from a sergeant major to a senior sergeant, harshly, even under Stalin they did not treat people like that: "The statutes do not order to shoot them twice."
                      10. 0
                        19 June 2019 17: 09
                        The hand fell into the abyss with a stupid sound "pli" and a volley gave me a pass to the other side of the earth.
                      11. 0
                        19 June 2019 18: 10
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        The first on the eastern front killed 350 thousands of German and Austro-Hungarian soldiers, on the western -1,5 million.

                        On the First World War on the Eastern Front, about 450 thousand Austrian Hungarians and about 175 thousand Germans died, I can tell lies, but the order is approximately the same.
                      12. +1
                        19 June 2019 18: 44
                        350 thousand all together.
                      13. 0
                        19 June 2019 19: 51
                        By the way, approximately the same number of people together was on the eastern front from 1914 to 1917.
                      14. +2
                        19 June 2019 19: 58
                        And in the Second World Wehrmacht on the eastern front, it reached 5,5 million people. if in 1917 the cadets or monarchists came to power. I sooooo studied this topic in detail in the first case of July 1 1941 of the year. The Wehrmacht and SS troops parade on Red Square Hitler, Himler, etc. are on the mausoleum. In the second, the Russian Army would have lasted a week longer, all the same only on 7 of July.
                      15. 0
                        19 June 2019 20: 49
                        War, such a thing, it lends itself to mathematical calculation like nothing else, the last hundred years it has been done, only the Germans are worthless mathematicians, well, this is not German. That's all their problems over the past 100 years, and they are not bad fighters, perhaps the best in the world, well, there are not enough brains.

                        Guys. I remembered one episode from the 1967 movie "Waterloo" (Bondarchuk) - The elite British cavalry regiment Scottish Grays is attacking, Napoleon looks through the pipe and utters the ingenious phrase: "The best cavalry in Europe under the worst command." This is an epitaph on the grave of the German army.
                      16. +1
                        19 June 2019 22: 04
                        I want to tell you guys one story about "European Humanism" and "European Civilization", it just rushes out of me: August 11-12, 1942, Rostov-on-Don (my hometown), Zpevskaya beam,
                        "Ainsatzkommando D" - adult women and old people were simply shot from two MG-34 machine guns, and for children these ghouls pulled up a soldier's tent, lined up in a row and I don't know what to call it .... in a white coat, no, I know what to call it, The Russian language is rich, but I'm afraid it will be banned, and you won't be able to read the text, it was in a white coat I took a cotton swab with tweezers, broke an ampoule with potassium cyanide, moistened it, but the child won't accept this - it's bitter, so these "humanists" dripped cherry syrup from above and so on the text followed: "Eat children - these are delicious sweets" and in turn put these tampons on the children’s tongue, the children swallowed reflexively, it’s not sweet and not bitter ...
                      17. +1
                        19 June 2019 22: 20
                        I expect someone will say, well, these are fascists, and the rest of the "Europeans" and "Americans" are such straightforward humanists, and your Stalin is even worse than Hitler. Especially for such: From January 1, 1937 to December 31, 1937 (information from amerovskih newspapers of that time) in the United States executed by electric chair (whoever saw the chronicle execution in a chair, he will never forget this) - 294 WOMEN, of which in aged 10 !!!!!!!! YEARS up to 18 years -112, In the USSR, to earn a bullet from the NKVD-shny revolver in the back of the head, you need to be a man at the age of five at the time of the crime !!!! articles not younger than 20 years old and not older than 60 years old.
                      18. +1
                        19 June 2019 22: 26
                        That's it, now they’ll tear me for sure
                      19. 0
                        19 June 2019 22: 53
                        "Tomorrow they will shoot, and, pressing against the wall, he suddenly burst into tears."
                      20. 0
                        20 June 2019 00: 42
                        You see, you are lying.

                        In 1937, the United States executed 151 death sentences. Of these, 1 (one) woman. Mary Holmes, Mississippi, 35 years old, robbery, murder.

                        The chair was not used in all states; they hung it in the Mississippi.

                        By the way, I don’t know who served in the punishers in Rostov, but they usually took locals. Wehrmacht personnel did not allocate for such purposes.
                      21. 0
                        20 June 2019 02: 15
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        In 1937, the United States executed 151 death sentences

                        Oh yes, I completely forgot. In the same labor, the 37th comrade Blokhin, subsequently the holder of the Order of the Red Banner of Labor, is talked about, performed 200 people a day. In total, from June 37th to November 38th, comrade Comrade Blokhin’s colleagues let in 682 thousand people in the first category.

                        You say, ten-year-old girls were offended in America.
                      22. 0
                        20 June 2019 17: 51
                        Can you read? "Einsatzkommando D" Why the Wehrmacht?
                      23. 0
                        20 June 2019 16: 48
                        Well, yes, well, yes, that's exactly what I meant by the usual liberal bile. absolutely uninformative. Unfortunately, I will disappoint you in the events of August 11-12, 1942, only SS soldiers and officers took part, there was no Khivi, no Bandera, no other collaborators, only "Purebred Aryans" with Reich passports there were 30 of them. All are known by Surname, including the commander and the "doctor", in principle I did not mention the names of these ghouls.
                      24. +1
                        20 June 2019 18: 03
                        I didn’t want to get into it, but I have to.
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        Exclusively "Purebred Aryans" with Reich passports there were 30 of them

                        Actually, the Soviet investigation had a different opinion about the Sonderkommando 10a. Including the Zmiev beam, about which you are writing. There were processes in the 43rd, in the 63rd (the first and second Krasnodar) and a dozen less well-known, in which participation in the Sonderkommando was charged with Soviet citizens.
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        commander and "doctor", I basically did not name names

                        This is one and the same person, Untersturmfuhrer SS Dr. Heinrich Goertz. He was for the elder that day.

                        And why did you raise this topic? Do you want to say that SS members killed Jews, or what?
                      25. 0
                        20 June 2019 18: 27
                        Kurt Christmann (nickname Dr. Rhonda) (head of the SS Sonderkommando 10a) was an SS Obersturbannfuehrer, there were no Soviet citizens there, only "Aryans".
                        They are all there one de .... om smeared, all "Europeans". Another bad thing is that white (USSR) became black, and black white (for the last 30 years they have been trying to convince us of this), you yourself, like an intelligent person, even believe in what you write
                      26. 0
                        20 June 2019 18: 37
                        Let's go on the other side. SPECIFICALLY ON FACTS - Mary Holmes she killed one person, yes I agree - a serious crime. In the USSR, women are rare, but executed, two - one 12 of August 1979 of the year for the murder of 1500 !!!!!!!!!! man, these are only proven episodes, another in 1987 for killing 40 !!!!!! man, even a man to earn the death penalty in the USSR had to try hard. I mentioned 5 articles, you deploy these 5 articles.
                      27. +1
                        20 June 2019 18: 44
                        You made a small mistake there, not 682 thousand, but 684 thousand, in the 1980s I wrote a more "accurate" figure of -40 million people, although there were other variants of Khakamada-95 million, but the more common -20 million.
                      28. +1
                        20 June 2019 23: 34
                        I gave a certificate specifically on the executions specifically in 37-38gg according to the MGB of the 53rd year. The figure of 20 million applies to all people who were subjected to repression in the Stalin era.

                        Of course, it is quite arbitrary. If we take Finland as conditional Russia without the Bolsheviks, then in counting the people affected by the Soviet regime, you can go very far. If you take Taiwan for China without the Communists, you can go even further.
                      29. +1
                        20 June 2019 19: 20
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        Mary Holmes she killed one man yes agree

                        Not interested in how much she killed. I even admit that she didn’t kill anyone, the state of Mississippi was not particularly famous for justice in relation to blacks.
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        Women are rare in the USSR, but executed

                        Yes, I’ve been hit on a drum somehow, women were executed from the USSR or not. I am for equality in this regard.
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        I had to try hard

                        There was absolutely no need to try. Mostly received as a gift.
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        You expand these 5 articles.

                        What for? You're lying.

                        The highest measure under 5 articles provides for the Criminal Code of the 96th year. The RSFSR Criminal Code of the year 60 provided for capital punishment under article 31 (excluding subparagraphs) (of which 16 were war crimes). As for the time of Comrade Stalin, the articles did not bother much at all. All the most interesting was done on the papers of the CEC / SNK. To give an overview of Soviet jurisprudence of those years of leisure, excuse me.
                      30. 0
                        20 June 2019 19: 51
                        "Yes, I don't give a damn about whether women were executed from the USSR or not. I am for equality in this respect." - here it somehow cut, really the murder of a woman, even if she is a criminal. makes some sense. this is generally beyond the scope of .... although what am I surprised at "European values". Until 1946, in France, a woman is not a human at all, something like a pet.
                      31. +2
                        20 June 2019 18: 56
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        Soviet citizens were not there

                        Are you talking about specifically the Zmiev beam or about 10a in general? T.t. Weikh, Skripkin, Yeskov, Sukhov, Surguladze, Zhirukhin, Buglak, Dzampaev and Psarev were convicted innocently or what?
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        all "Europeans"

                        And how do your claims against sonderkommandy relate to Europeans? Or someone told you that all Germans are saints, but then suddenly not?
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        white (USSR) turned black

                        The USSR was never white, so you know. Whites were not liked there. Yes, in general, many people do not like.
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        and black and white (for the past 30 years they have been trying to convince us of this)

                        Someone is trying to convince you that Sonderkommando did the right thing with the Jews?
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        You yourself, like a smart person yourself even believe in what you write

                        What exactly?
                      32. 0
                        20 June 2019 19: 14
                        Happened: a liberal with a communist. let's go along the classical path - crush the water in a mortar, as is usually done on some kind of television talk = show or talk like two .... it’s inconvenient to call yourself. but I’ll call you Intellectual (I'm not ironic), you are very nice to me by the way.
                      33. 0
                        20 June 2019 19: 18
                        These names that you name, is it precisely in the Rostov case, not in the Krasnodar?
                      34. 0
                        20 June 2019 19: 26
                        For a long time I have been going to write an article on the Zmevsky (Zmievsky, although the first option is more correct) beam. there are few materials, these ghouls. since 1942, they began to destroy all documents on their "affairs". apparently felt. that the reckoning will come. very few documents, unlike 1941, Kiev ("Babi Yar")
                      35. 0
                        20 June 2019 19: 40
                        Krasnodar 63rd year.
                      36. 0
                        20 June 2019 20: 11
                        And, I realized, I even saw a documentary newsreel on this matter, I'm not sure that the defendants are the same, but you specifically have something on Rostov’s, can you send?
                      37. +1
                        20 June 2019 20: 23
                        Already wrote above. I AM not I am interested in the activities of Sonderkommands.
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        it’s generally beyond .... Until 1946, in France, a woman was not a man at all,

                        Regardless of your ideas about the hard life of French women, this particular kind of "humanism" is based on the hypothesis that a woman cannot be fully functional. I do not support this idea.
                        My attitude to the death penalty does not depend on the sex and age of the convict.
                      38. -1
                        19 August 2019 00: 11
                        Cherry Nine, you provide data for only one state, and you pass it off as the truth - you are either imbecile or a liar, I do not know which is worse. Imbitsil is not an insult, I ask for petition in advance. I had no intentions to offend, just now this is the most common diagnosis, billions of people are sick - this is a diagnosis (a person with an IQ from 25 to 50 units.)
                      39. -2
                        19 August 2019 00: 22
                        Leave the comrade VD alone. He can’t answer. And about IQ ... you care about him like in China
                      40. -1
                        19 August 2019 16: 57
                        Well, yes, well, yes, where do we go to doctors of sciences and Heroes of the Soviet Union with their kopeck 227 IQ to you - "masters of life" and "superintellectuals", we are dirt under your feet.
                      41. 0
                        19 June 2019 18: 42
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        The first on the eastern front killed 350 thousands of German and Austro-Hungarian soldiers, on the western -1,5 million.

                        The general ratio of losses to those killed and dying of wounds is 3,5: 1 in favor of the Central Powers, and for prisoners - 1,9: 1, also in favor of Germany and Austria-Hungary. At the same time, with the German army the loss ratio for the killed is 7: 1, and for the prisoners - 14,6: 1, in both cases in favor of the German side. With Austria-Hungary, the ratio of casualties is close to 1: 1, and for prisoners - 1,16: 1 in favor of the Russian side.
                        https://military.wikireading.ru/10199
                      42. 0
                        19 June 2019 18: 04
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        All their knowledge that the old Russian army with sticks plus 8800 BT and T-26 tanks are waiting for them on the other side (by the way, real numbers from the Abwehr documents).

                        Tippelskirch indicates that the Germans had an understanding that the USSR could have more tanks in 4 times, but they did not consider this a critical parameter.
                      43. +2
                        19 June 2019 18: 03
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        You are too emotional again.

                        Well, why? There is a fact - you compare the number of rifles at the beginning of the war with the number called up for the entire war. It testifies either that you have not studied this question at all, or else (and I apologized for making this assumption!) You are deliberately trying to mislead the readers. There is no third option, and emotions have nothing to do with it.
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        ZNO 1981 in my 7 number

                        There is no it, alas
                      44. 0
                        19 June 2019 18: 43
                        All numbers. which I bring. this is from memory, and the sources are from memory of the 1981 ZVO, there is an article devoted to the Arab-Israeli wars and the coefficient of resistance. I even remember the table from memory ..
                      45. 0
                        19 June 2019 18: 51
                        At home lies 8000 magazines ZVO, VIZH, TM, Tv. AiK, ohh, FOR MY CAPTURE OF A LARGE LETTER BUTTON, MAGAZINES FOR 40 YEARS FROM 1978 YEARS, I REMEMBER ALL OF THEM.
                      46. 0
                        19 June 2019 18: 52
                        NUMBERS ONLY only.
                      47. 0
                        19 June 2019 18: 54
                        ANDREW, NOW SEARCHING FOR THIS VIG
                      48. 0
                        19 June 2019 19: 10
                        Andrey, rummaged through his magazines, wondered if my memory had begun to let me down, no, thank God, number 7 ZVO 1981. THE ARTICLE IS CALLED "ACCOUNTING THE SURPRISE FACTOR WHEN SIMULATING BATTLE ACTIONS." PLEASE, Andrew, SOMETHING WITH A BUTTON IN GENERAL, IF THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO DOWNLOAD VIG FOR 1987-89 THERE MORE DETAILS.
                      49. 0
                        19 June 2019 19: 15
                        I sold a VIZH with a fool in the middle of 90's, now I'm sorry.
                      50. 0
                        20 June 2019 09: 08
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        Andrey, rummaged through his magazines, wondered if my memory had begun to let me down, no, thank God, number 7 ZVO 1981. THE ARTICLE IS CALLED "ACCOUNTING THE SURPRISE FACTOR WHEN SIMULATING BATTLE ACTIONS."

                        I read it, there are no figures given by you
                      51. 0
                        20 June 2019 16: 38
                        This article is the first. in which for the first time in the open press the term "resistance coefficient" is mentioned, the rest is in the VIZH, but I wrote there in more detail about it 1987-89, I don't remember the issue from memory, try downloading these magazines from the inter.
                      52. 0
                        20 June 2019 17: 00
                        Generally very strange, you are a smart person, you have 300 articles. it should be noted very deep, informatively rich, written in good Russian. but you do not know basic things, I conclude - you are a very talented self-taught person.
            2. +1
              17 June 2019 12: 26
              firstly, put the word "Washington" in quotes. Secondly, the ONLY "Washington" battleships were "Nelson" and "Rodney"
              1. -2
                17 June 2019 13: 15
                Quote: Seeker
                The ONLY "Washington" battleships were "Nelson" and "Rodney"

                )))
                First, in this context, Washington battleships must be understood as the ships indicated in the text (appendices) of the Washington Sea Treaty as part of the existing fleets.

                Secondly, Dunkirk and Scharnhorsts were also completely Washington DC.

                Thirdly, theoretically, the 35-thousanders (KD5, NorKa, SoDak, Richelieu) corresponded to the Agreement and supposedly corresponded to Littorio and Bismarck. Another thing is that all these ships went into operation already during the war (and much later than the 38th year of approval, which allowed 45K LC), so they were re-equipped and loaded.
          3. +2
            17 June 2019 17: 16
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Fans are interested in what? The level of domestic naval art, and for its assessment should be compared ships at the time of laying.

            So it’s not necessary to fight with tables and drawings. Fans are just wondering what each country can exhibit, and how real ships relate. And then we always have the most powerful ships on paper, either remain in the drawings, or are being completed even when concept has changed.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Well Lizzy, so what? And if Sevastopol were not commissioned in 1914, but in 1912, for example, what, by 1914 there were no lizzies, or what? :)))

            If the comrades had commissioned Seva in 1912, the Empire would have managed to finish building Ishmael at such a rate. smile
          4. 0
            18 June 2019 10: 37
            To enter Sevastopol in 1912 it had to be laid in the 19th century. history does not understand if grandmother is grandfather. Now about the German 305 mm guns - this is the paradox; small German guns could hit thin British armor from 12 kilometers, but large British suitcases with thick German from 8 km. I exaggerate, I don’t remember the exact values ​​- as the Battle of Jutland showed. And our Gangut of yours had neither one nor the other, although of course the guns were quite good compared to the 40 caliber old shit guns.
        2. +1
          15 June 2019 15: 42
          This is the first favorite song of patriotic fans:
          for example, for I-16 we take the date of approval by the breadboard commission, and for Me-109 we take the year of appearance in combat units, and so on

          second favorite song "if not for the war"
          current fans do not remember that, for example, the decision to build 6 battleships of the "South Dakota" type was made in the summer of 1916)
      3. +1
        18 June 2019 10: 26
        Funny however. The 225 mm belt, even for battlecruisers, was so-so at that time. Yes, and they laid it when the superdreadnoughts were built to their full height.
        1. 0
          18 June 2019 20: 20
          Quote: Victor Garmaschov
          The belt in 225 mm, even for battlecruisers, was so-so at that time

          In addition to the final values, there is also a booking scheme. And on most battleships of that time, their 7-inch armor covers only a couple of meters at the waterline, and then it is reduced to 5-9 inches. The "North" has this 7 "(I agree not too much) belt five meters wide. And then there is the statistics of Jutland, during which a negligible number of hits hit this very well-protected waterline, but much more hits the upper belt. And why 9 "in this case is better than 50" (and XNUMXmm bulkhead behind it) is decidedly incomprehensible.
          Quote: Victor Garmaschov
          Yes, and they laid it when the superdreadnoughts were built to their full height.

          And what kind of "superdreadnoughts" were built in 1909?
          1. 0
            19 June 2019 00: 08
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            "Sev" has this 9 "(I agree not too sufficient) belt with a width of five meters

            Suddenly, we get a KRT hunter, who are not there yet, but will be.
            But without speed.
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            what kind of "superdreadnoughts" were built in 1909?

            Orion.
            Formally, you are right, from Seva to Orion for half a year, so there are no superdreadnoughts yet. Another thing is that the expression "battleship race" implies a slightly different pace of life. In the Washington Treaty of 22, Britain was left with only one Orion, all the others later and generally much stronger. RI after sowing built only empresses, who are generally the same garbage.
            1. 0
              19 June 2019 11: 06
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Suddenly, we get a KRT hunter, who are not there yet, but will be.

              Hmm ... all of a sudden, we have a fast battleship, not the best essno, but not an outsider either.
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Another thing is that the expression "battleship race" implies a slightly different pace of life.

              It’s just that the British didn’t get 50 caliber guns and they had to increase their caliber. We and the Germans - it turned out, however, subsequently it came back to a hitch. And in general, they then furnished everything, including Americans, Germans, Japanese, Italians
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              In the washington treaty

              Afterglow.
              By the way, the British themselves had a very high opinion of Russian guns.
              1. 0
                19 June 2019 14: 22
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                And in general, they then furnished everything, including Americans, Germans, Japanese, Italians

                Quote: Senior Sailor
                Afterglow.

                How to say. The fact that "the process was underway" was already more or less evident by 1909.
                After the agreement, the British had every single ship - superdreadnoughts (22 pcs), the Americans - 12 (and completed in the 23rd two more instead of two dreadnought), the Japanese - 10, the French 3, the Italians 0.
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                not the best essno, but not an outsider.

                Ships laid in the 1909 year:
                Colossus, Orion and Lyon (the last two are superdreadnoughts).
                Kaiser, Moltke.
                Florida
                Kawati
                Spain.
                Dante Alighieri

                Not an outsider, of course, compared to Spain. But Orion, Lyon and Kaiser are stronger unequivocally; what other chances need to go deep into the rest of the ships.
                1. 0
                  19 June 2019 18: 01
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Ships laid in the 1909 year:

                  I would like to draw your favorable attention that the colleague to whose comments I replied wrote the following:
                  Yes laid them when already superdreadnoughts were built to his full height.

                  Which is clearly not true.
                  Ships laid in the 1909 year:

                  Orion - yes. "Colossus" - ugh. "Lion" has the advantage only in speed.
                  The advantage of the "Kaiser" is by no means fatal ("Koenig" is another matter)
                  The squalor of the Japanese and the Spaniards can be forgotten. The advantage of "Dante" is only in seaworthiness.
                  Not an outsider, of course, compared to Spain.
                  and also Italy, France, Japan and, suddenly, the USA. Laid down in 1910, "Wyoming" is slower, armed in the same way, and it cannot be said that better armored request
                  1. -1
                    19 June 2019 19: 53
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    Which is clearly not true.

                    Well, here are two)))

                    But further more.

                    Colossus is a normal dreadnought. There is no need to equalize Japanese squalor with Spanish, it is not such squalor. Kaiser, as it were, has twice as much armor as Seva.

                    In Lyon, the armor is similar to sowing, but the guns are wider. So the Englishman breaks through with a guarantee, and vice versa - on luck.

                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    as well as Italy, France, Japan and, suddenly, the USA

                    Why "suddenly"? American pre-dreadnoughts drew amused laughter. Only standards have reached the world level since Pennsylvania (Nevada, for all its advantages, is badly done). Moreover, the five-power treaty, which allegedly fixed the parity of the United States and Britain, actually fixed a two-power standard for the early 20s - 22 superdreadnoughts for Britain, 14 for the United States, 10 for Japan. With the exchange of King George for Nelsons, the gap narrowed slightly - 20-14-10, but the three strongest ships in the world are British.
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    Laid down in 1910, "Wyoming" is slower, armed in the same way, and it cannot be said that better armored

                    Yes, the author has already written that Seva is well done, Wyoming to the bottom.

                    In fact, everything is not so simple. The author's concept is based on the fact that Seva's armor is sufficient for combat with 12 "guns. Accordingly, Wyoming's thick but narrow belt is worse than Seva's thin but wide belt.
                    If this is not so, then Seva has problems. If you look at the weight of the armor, then the American has more than one and a half times.
                    1. 0
                      19 June 2019 20: 34
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Why "suddenly"?

                      But because one of our common friend tongue He said that for the successful construction of the fleet, a developed industry is needed, which is better for the USA than RI. feel
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      five power treaty

                      in 1909, no one can even dream of a terrible dream.
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Lion’s armor is similar to seva

                      By thickness - yes, by area - no.
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      but the guns are wider

                      And they are much smaller.
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Yes, the author has already written that Seva is well done, Wyoming to the bottom.

                      The author did not write at all.
                      1. 0
                        20 June 2019 01: 53
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        The author did not write at all.

                        When we take the reference book, seeing twelve 305-mm Wyoming cannons and 280 mm thickness of its armor-belt against twelve 305-mm trunks of Sevastopol and 225 mm of armor-belt, we unconditionally give the palm to the American ship. But one has only to look at how it will become clear that in fact the American battleship does not have too many chances against the Russian ship.

                        One of his first texts on the resource.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        And they are much smaller

                        When firing a heavy projectile 5 tons in a salvo against 5,5 Seva.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        By thickness - yes, by area - no.

                        This does not change the fact that the 12 "shell Lyon's armor can stop (or not stop), but the same armor against 13,5" has practically no chances when using late ARs.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        in 1909 no one can even dream in a nightmare

                        The contract cut old ships and halted the construction of new ones. Fifty superdreadnoughts were already built by the 22nd year without any contract.

                        What is it about that the Soviet Sevastopol got on the fleet with lizzy (the fourth series of superdreadnoughts, not counting the LCR), and left the fleet 3 years before the start of the ABA Enterprise. With AB Forrestal Seva missed a year with a small one, found him a training ship. It seems that the respected author did not consider the possible battle of Sevastopol with the AUG Forrestol, or at least the AUG Midway in the early 50s. That would be extremely alternative.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        said that for the successful construction of the fleet a developed industry is needed

                        Spoke. But one should not conclude from this that each particular ship was successful. Between us, the Americans built in those years some beautiful, breakthrough ships, but there may be questions for everyone, even Maryland. The provincialism of the Americans was felt for a very long time.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        which the US is better than RI

                        And this, of course, affected. In 1909, the Americans, like RI, did not have a single dreadnought, but Florids, the 5th and 6th ships of this class, were already laid down, against 4 Russian ones. Then the Americans built the battleships, frankly, not like the British, nevertheless, by 1914, simultaneously with Sevastopol, they already had 8 not the best dreadnoughts and two New Yorks in the ranks, which were clearly stronger and claimed to be top1 in the months before Lisa the world. In the 15th, 2 Empresses arrived in time (one for a short while), on the 16th there were standards (in the 16th, 4 at once, the Empress was no match for once), but oh, that's all.
                      2. 0
                        20 June 2019 08: 41
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        One of his first texts on the resource.

                        Absolutely right. And where there
                        Seva well done, Wyoming to the bottom.
                        ?!
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        When firing a heavy shell 5 tons in a salvo against 5,5 Seva

                        And this is true. But the "seva" will respond to two four gun volleys with three, and whoever shoots first, that and sneakers.
                        but the same armor against 13,5 "has practically no chances when using later ARs.

                        Do not tell me when the Germans adopted the 13,5 with the late ARs?
                        And after Jutland, any 12 "battleship is suitable only for training purposes.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        It seems that the respected author did not consider the possible battle of Sevastopol with the AUG Forrestol, or even the AUG Midway of the beginning of the 50's. That would be extremely alternative.

                        Andrei from a harsh city on the geological border of the Urals and Siberia, of course, an alternative person (like many of us), but he wasn’t noticed in the fantasy :))
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        but to everyone, even Maryland, there may be questions.

                        And "Seva" is no better here, but no worse than others.
                      3. -1
                        20 June 2019 09: 46
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        And where there

                        In that text, the author spent quite a few letters on Wyoming. To reduce his arguments to a reduced maxim or not is a matter of style.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        But the "seva" will respond to two four gun salvos with three,

                        Of course not. Either three-gun, or two-tower, possibly incomplete. Nobody will do the figure-cutting of four-gun salvos from three-gun towers. Both that and the other ship will shoot in half-salvos over the rolling period, and not at reloading, which in any case is shorter than two rolling periods.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Do not tell me when the Germans adopted the 13,5 with the late ARs?

                        The Germans ate, then Kaiser and Moltke on the tab, and Byern and Derflinger on input. No chance. Even Moltke.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        after Jutland any 12 "battleship is suitable only for training purposes

                        This is what we are talking about. Seva has a whole life after Jutland.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        but not noticed in the fantasy :))

                        Well, as it were, 68 bis - Kitty Hawk - real. It seems that they crossed paths with Nimitz in Middle-earth.

                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        "Seva" is no better here, but no worse than others

                        Twenty five again. Seva is better than others in 1906, when they thought, it’s better than some, worse than some, no worse than many others in 1909, worse than almost all in 1914, some worse than hopeless. After 10 years, Britain and Japan did not have a single such Seva in the line. States have 4 of 18.
                      4. 0
                        20 June 2019 11: 06
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Again twenty-five.

                        Exactly.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        After 10 years, Britain and Japan did not have a single Seva in the line.

                        Ten years later, for us, the confrontation with England and Japan at sea cannot even dream in a nightmare. But with Germany, so what? Where are their Badens and Derflingers?
                        Tell me, who knew about Scapa Flow? And I’ll say that we had no less disasters, and projects, as it were, weren’t cooler.
                      5. -1
                        20 June 2019 12: 02
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        with England and Japan at sea cannot even dream in a nightmare. But with Germany, so what? Where are their Badens and Derflingers?

                        Some kind of weird approach. Taking into account all the circumstances of the Russian Empire, battleships are not needed at all, and the army is not needed, but you need to pay off your cousin Willy with anything, even though through the Brest Peace, let it choke, and deal with internal issues.

                        But these circumstances have nothing to do with the assessment of Sevastopol.
                      6. 0
                        20 June 2019 16: 27
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Some kind of weird approach.

                        Absolutely agree!
                        All countries built ships which, due to inexorable military-technical progress, very soon became obsolete. But if you generously forgive this to other countries, then absolutely the same circumstances about Russia, in your opinion, testify extremely negatively. This is a really weird approach.
                      7. +1
                        20 June 2019 16: 58
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        But if you generously forgive other countries,

                        That you do not know me well. Most of all I have complaints about the Americans. But the Americans somehow claim my drum.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        in your opinion, testifies extremely negatively

                        Why "extreme"? I wrote that in comparison with Italy and even France, everything is relatively good. If RI had lived until the 22nd year, then she would have had at least 6 dreadnoughts + Nikolai + Izmail, how many there could be. France also has 6 (one also died in the 22nd), Italy 5 (one died in the 16th). So they go in a tight group, and everyone has no chance against Nagato.
                        Is it good or bad?
                      8. 0
                        20 June 2019 17: 11
                        if so, then we just did not understand each other :)))
      4. +1
        18 June 2019 16: 04
        Thank you for the article, but I absolutely disagree with you that at the time of the bookmark these ships "were very good." The defeat of the 1st and 2nd Pacific squadrons by the Japanese using exclusively high-explosive shells was so shameful that it put pressure on the minds of the top leadership of the Navy and the royal family of Russia so that they gave the go-ahead to the project, allocated a million-dollar funding for "large gunboats" ( not my expression, but very correct, one of the issues of "TV", dedicated to the anti-ship missiles of the Soviet (Russian) fleet). The initially unsuccessful project was superimposed on the features of the "court" Baltic Fleet. Thanks to the Russian admirals and sailors (specifically the Black Sea Fleet) that the upgraded battleships of this project allowed Russia to do whatever the heart of the ground forces wanted in the First World War, and in the Baltic (shame on the "Russian dreadnoughts", more precisely, their command and crews) , the most efficient was "Slava", of the same type with the newest battleships for 1905, ingloriously killed or captured at Tsushima. Thanks to the Soviet sailors and admirals that they used the UNSUCCESSFUL ships "to the fullest" in the then difficult conditions. I ask you not to forget that the battleship Sevastopol (aka Paris Commune), whose transfer from the Baltic to the Black Sea made people talk about the project as "big gunboats" completely unsuitable for sea crossings, was "filmed" personally Stalin from serious operations only after his (battleship) main caliber went out of order after the Kerch-Feodosiya operation due to the "washing away" of the main caliber rifling ("import substitution" did not change for 100 years). In St. Petersburg, the shot barrels were changed by their manufacturer (Obukhovsky plant), at the Black Sea Fleet there was no such opportunity.
        1. +2
          18 June 2019 19: 45
          Quote: samaravega
          The defeat of the 1st and 2nd Pacific squadrons by the Japanese using exclusively high-explosive shells was so shameful that it put pressure on the minds of the top leadership of the Navy and the tsarist family of Russia so that they gave the go-ahead to the project, allocated a million-dollar funding for "large gunboats"

          Thanks, but you shouldn’t, right, tell old stories about these battleships. Their defense was based on completely different ideas, and only deliberately unscrupulous or illiterate authors wrote them down in the candelki.
          1. 0
            19 June 2019 12: 54
            I am compelled to refer you once again to a series of articles in "TV", devoted to the anti-ship missiles of the USSR and Russia, as the expression about cannonboats in relation to battleships of the "Sevastopol" type is from there. The quality of these articles, written in your words "by unscrupulous or semi-literate authors", is two heads higher than the quality of yours.
            Before extolling this project, I recommend comparing this series of battleships with such projects as Orion, Wyoming, Ostfriesland, Kaiser, Dante Alighieri, Conte De Cavour, Viribus Unitis, and also read at least "Battleships of the Second World", where in a condensed form, but the types and scales of modernization, which were forced to go to the USSR for at least some tightening of the characteristics of these ships, are given.
            Not because of the good life in Russia they designed the so-called. "battle cruisers" of the "Izmail" type - the catastrophic lag of the "Sevastopol" was already clear in 1911.
    2. +8
      14 June 2019 20: 36
      It turns out that at the time of construction the ships were not a fountain.


      at the time of the bookmark there was a very fountain (in the design I see many shortcomings, but shell arr. 1911 in its armor-piercing qualities roughly corresponded to the British Greenboys arr. 1918 (!!!) of the year, sharply surpassing them in the quality of explosives)

      "Sevastopoli" failed the following:
      1. armor quality
      2. quality of armor mounting
      3. insufficient seaworthiness
      4.Not good range
      5. Long construction time
      6. overload

      But, once again, no one in the world then had comparable AP shells except the Germans
      Seva was a land mine fellow generally +100500
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. +4
        14 June 2019 22: 39
        The main drawback was the time of building the ships!
        1. +2
          14 June 2019 23: 03
          The main drawback was the time of building the ships!

          Yes sir! But ... Seva's shells fellow generally +100500
      3. 0
        15 June 2019 02: 48
        Andrey, and the archaic arrangement of the main caliber towers, how is it? This is not even a minus, it is a natural step back. hi
        1. +9
          15 June 2019 10: 27
          Quote: Sea Cat
          Andrew, and the archaic location of the towers of the main caliber, what is it like?

          This "archaic" had excellent firing angles and saved the armor of barbets in comparison with the linear-elevated scheme. The scheme became obsolete by WWII only because it required an uncluttered deck and did not leave room for air defense artillery
          1. 0
            15 June 2019 19: 56
            The scheme of the "floating artillery platform" was outdated by WWI, I am already silent about the second one, by the end of it all battleships were outdated. And by the beginning of the first war, the leading countries were building ships with a linearly elevated scheme and air defense had nothing to do with it, what kind of air defense could we talk about in 1914? SchA again throw minuses apologists "truly Russian animal" - well, to hell with them. hi
            1. +6
              16 June 2019 10: 55
              Quote: Sea Cat
              The scheme of the "floating artillery platform" was outdated by WWI

              What is its obsolescence? :)))
              Quote: Sea Cat
              to its end all battleships are generally outdated

              They are outdated by about the middle of WWII, not earlier. And how to say - outdated? Let's say so, lost the role of the ruler of the seas, but still remained necessary as an element of a balanced fleet
              Quote: Sea Cat
              And by the beginning of the first war, the leading countries were building ships with a linear-elevated scheme and air defense is absolutely nothing to do with

              They built it, but what advantages did it give? :)))
              Quote: Sea Cat
              SchA again the apologists of the "truly Russian animal"

              But for this - just a minus
              1. +2
                16 June 2019 23: 44
                They built it, but what advantages did it give? :)))


                So she gave. ))) Otherwise, what's the point of spending time and money on developing new projects?
                1. -1
                  17 June 2019 13: 29
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  So she gave. ))) Otherwise, what's the point of spending time and money on developing new projects?

                  So I ask - what? :))))
                  1. 0
                    17 June 2019 15: 50
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    So I ask - what? :))))

                    The easiest way is for Americans (limes and Germans changed caliber). Why does New York have 5 towers 356/45, and Nevada has 4 towers 356/45? Why do 5-6 turret battleships, American, English, German, Italian, French, Japanese, have bow and stern towers linearly elevated?
                    1. -1
                      17 June 2019 15: 55
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Why does New York City have 5 356 / 45 towers, and Nevada 4 356 / 45 towers?

                      Why?:)))))))
                      1. +2
                        17 June 2019 16: 10
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Why?

                        In Sevastopol, the linear scheme can still be forgiven, but for Ishmael you need to knock with a face on a table and a table about a face.

                        The advanced level of naval thought, they said.
                      2. 0
                        17 June 2019 16: 53
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        In Sevastopol, the linear scheme can still be forgiven, but for Ishmael you need to knock with a face on a table and a table about a face.

                        Yes, for the sake of what? :))) For the PRC linear scheme was, perhaps, more suitable than linearly elevated. And she certainly had the right to live along with her.
                      3. +1
                        17 June 2019 17: 04
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Yes, for what?

                        For the sake of the fact that Ishmael was a battle cruiser, as was believed. He is obliged to catch up with the weaker and run away from the stronger. And he has 3 guns at the extremities. The battleship, which should fight in a line, is less sensitive to this.
                        Goeben, by the way, with his rhombus, 6 guns straight forward, 8 straight back.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Why?:)))))))

                        The easiest thing with Nevada. She was different from the New York 343 mm belt. The abandonment of the central towers allowed the stronghold to be shortened.
                        The second plus is fire control. This idea was brought to the logical end by Nelsons and Richelieu. The more crowded the guns, the better.
                      4. -1
                        17 June 2019 18: 52
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        For the sake of what Ishmael - the battle cruiser, as it was believed. He must catch up with the weaker and run away from the stronger.

                        In RI, his role was seen quite differently - the high-speed wing under the main forces. That is, it was just a high-speed battleship, not an armored cruiser for dreadnoughts, as the British understood it
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The easiest thing with Nevada. She was different from the New York 343 mm belt. The abandonment of the central towers allowed the stronghold to be shortened.

                        Right. Reducing the number of towers from 5 to 4 allowed shortening the citadel. The question is how does this relate to a linear or linearly sublime scheme for a four-basal LC in any case?
                      5. +1
                        17 June 2019 22: 03
                        high-speed wing with the main forces


                        and the main forces of 4 Sevastopol)
                      6. +2
                        18 June 2019 01: 47
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        there it was just a fast battleship

                        Oh my God.
                        Battleship Armor from Congo. December 12-th, the second series of supers (cd5) comes into operation, Lizzie was laid, Nevada was laid.

                        The level of naval thought, they said.

                        Something is wrong with our damned battlecruisers today, don't you think?


                        You understand that Ishmael with any super dreadnought - New York, Orion, Fuso - will be very sad, but what was going on while he was slowly built - standards, Lisa / R-type, Hood, Nagato, Bayern - immediately run in horror (you can't run away from Hood with Nagato)?

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The question is - what does this have to do with a linear or linearly elevated scheme for a four-tower LC in any case?

                        I remember your arguments about 30 barb meters instead of belts. The picture of the baern was still applied. You did not know then the length of the Baerna citadel or the standard with respect to Seva with Ishmael, and now you know.

                        And you know that when the most weight-efficient layout was needed, the Nelson towers came up the hill together, and did not creep across the citadel to save barb.
                      7. -1
                        18 June 2019 10: 56
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Battleship Armor from Congo. December 12-th, the second series of supers (cd5) comes into operation, Lizzie was laid, Nevada was laid.

                        Agas
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The level of naval thought, they said.

                        How is Ishmael worse than the English LCR, which was also supposed to be used in the battle of the main forces? And who had a much more modest booking?
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        You understand that Ishmael with any super dreadnought - New York, Orion, Fuso - will be very sad

                        As well as almost any LCR of that time - and all of them were supposed to be used in the general expression :)))
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        I remember your arguments about 30 barb meters instead of belts. The picture of the baern was still applied. You did not know then the length of the Baerna citadel or the standard with respect to Seva with Ishmael, and now you know.

                        Why did not know? Knew And this absolutely does not cancel my argument for the most obvious reason - I argued that the length of the citadel is determined by the length of the stripped compartments, KO and MO, and this is true for Bayern as well. And what about his Mo and KO were smaller than that of our ships - so what?
                        In other words, if the Germans were making their own Bayern in a linear pattern, its stronghold would be the same length as the original
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        And you know that when you needed the most efficient in terms of weight layout, Nelson's towers came together on a hill

                        And I also know that it had nothing to do with the length of the citadel :)))) There its thickness was critical, because the 356-mm section of the citadel was shorter if you assemble the towers together.
                      8. +2
                        18 June 2019 12: 26
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Why Ishmael is worse than English LCR

                        Is this about those Beaty?

                        It is worse in that 1. Instead of LC, and not in addition to LC. Even the Japanese did not have a fleet of LK / LKR 50/50. 2. Ishmael was built in a concrete calculation for 12 "enemy, although it was already clear that the end of the dreadnoughts.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In other words, if the Germans had done their Bayern in a linear way

                        Let me remind you that the linear-elevated scheme itself appeared because the Americans needed to stuff a dreadnought in 16 thousand tons.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        it had nothing to do with the length of the citadel :)))) There, its thickness was critical, because the 356-mm section of the citadel was shorter

                        So has not or shorter?
                      9. 0
                        18 June 2019 13: 04
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Is this about those Beaty?

                        Ага.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        It is worse than 1. Instead of LC, and not in addition to LC.

                        The first mistake. He was not at all instead of LK, he was TOGETHER WITH LK
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Not even the Japanese had a fleet of LC / LCR 50 / 50

                        And in our case it was not supposed either - according to tactical views, the ratio of LCR and LK in the squadron should have been 1 to 2 (4 LKR and 8 LK)
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Ishmael was built specifically for the 12 "enemy, although it was already clear that the end of the dreadnoughts.

                        What do you say :)))) In your opinion, the "Tiger" or "Derflinger" planted with him in the same year could withstand superdreadnoughts with adequate armor-piercing shells? :)))))
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Let me remind you that the linear-elevated scheme itself appeared because the Americans needed to stuff a dreadnought in 16 thousand tons.

                        Not quite right :)))) The restrictions in 16 thousand tons led to the fact that the Americans had to confine themselves to only 8 * 305-mm guns. And they, in fact, initially wanted more. Then the question arose of how to place these guns in the most rational way, and it was then that it was decided to put them linearly sublime - yet only 2 guns in the nose looked weak.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        So has not or shorter?

                        It does not. What is incomprehensible to what I wrote?
                      10. +2
                        18 June 2019 15: 11
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        He was not at all instead of LC, he was TOGETHER with LC

                        I'm confused.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        That is, it was just a fast battleship

                        You emphasize the difference in the tactical role of Tiger and Ishmael, and you again appeal to Fisher's cats.
                        The battleship Sevastopol, by the way, is also LK without armor and LKR without speed.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        4 LCR and 8 LK

                        Is it Black Sea? Well, OK.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In your opinion, the "Tiger" or "Derflinger" planted with him in the same year could withstand superdreadnoughts with adequate armor-piercing shells?

                        Tiger no, Derflinger yes, up to 343 mm. He has armor like Nagato and Hud.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        yet only 2 guns in the nose looked rather weak.

                        But 3 is just right.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        What is not clear

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I also know that to the length of the citadel it did not have no relation :)))) There, its thickness was critical, because The 356 mm section of the citadel was shorter if you put the towers together.
                      11. 0
                        18 June 2019 15: 29
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        I'm confused.

                        Nothing, now we unravel :))))
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        You emphasize the difference in the tactical role of Tiger and Ishmael, and you again appeal to Fisher's cats.

                        I explain my thought. The British planned to use their LCR as a means of protecting communications (i.e., anti-cruiser) and, moreover, in a linear battle, as a high-speed wing with relatively low-speed main forces. That is how they planned to use their armored cruisers in the pre-dreadful era.
                        We planned to use our LKR precisely as a "high-speed wing" for the squadron, their other possible functions were purely secondary.
                        That is, according to our tactical views, the tasks of the LKR were narrower than those of the British, nevertheless, the task of participating in the battle of the main forces was set before both. And the British believed that a ship with a 229 mm armor belt and a 25 mm bevel behind it and 8 * 343 mm guns would cope with the task of the "Fast Wing" in the battle of linear forces. Therefore, your reproach that ours believed that a ship with a 238-mm belt and a 75 mm bevel behind it and 12 * 356-mm guns would cope with the same tasks is strange.
                        The protection of Tiger and Ishmael, of course, is insufficient, but at the same time both in terms of armor and in the aggregate of the performance characteristics Ishmael is clearly stronger, and they are laid simultaneously.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Is it Black Sea? Well, OK.

                        Yes, where does the Black Sea? We had a tactical squadron team - 2 brigade for 4 LC and one of the 4 LCR, as well as 4 CRL and 36 EM. Such a squadron and tried to build on the Baltic. We decided that it would be correct to build ships with fours. The first four - Sevastopoli, the second - Ishmael, the third four (the second four LC) did not have time to lay.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Tiger no, Derflinger yes, up to 343 mm. He has armor like Nagato and Hud.

                        His armor is weaker than Hood’s, but this is not the question, but the fact that against the 343-mm of a full-fledged BB, Derflinger’s armor was hardly defended. In the aggregate, it was not too much of Ismaili and had enough vulnerabilities. As a matter of fact, we can rather say that in some places the Derflinger from 343-mm BB was protected more or less well. In fact, he was crucified with semi-slaughter shells.
                        At the same time, 8 * 305-mm is extremely weak for X-NUMX-X super battlements.
                      12. 0
                        18 June 2019 15: 32
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        But 3 is just right.

                        The difference between 2 and 4 is slightly larger than between 3 and 4
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        And I also know that it had nothing to do with the length of the citadel :)))) There its thickness was critical, because the 356-mm section of the citadel was shorter if you assemble the towers together.

                        The length of the Nelson citadel remained unchanged regardless of where the GK towers were stuck. But the British wanted the battle cellar areas to be better protected than the rest of the citadel, so they provided for a differentiated reservation of the citadel. It consisted of 330 mm and 356 mm sections. And now the 356-mm plot when grouping the towers according to the Nelson scheme was shorter, but this did not affect the total length of the citadel.
                        In short, it was obtained because the 356-mm sector, protecting a specific tower, had to go beyond its envelope (otherwise the enemy shell could get into its area through 330 mm). Having grouped the towers together, it turned out that the middle tower seemed to be covered with end
                  2. 0
                    17 June 2019 18: 12
                    This is not for me, but, at least, for the naval departments of the four countries. smile I doubt that there were round idiots who could not calculate the pros and cons for their fleet. hi
                    1. 0
                      17 June 2019 18: 54
                      Quote: Sea Cat
                      This is not for me, but at least for the naval authorities of four countries.

                      And the departments of these 4 countries came to a linear-elevated purely evolutionary way, because they were guided by two-tower. Five of these towers could not be put in a linear scheme, so we had to put the stern towers linearly sublimely. And then, while increasing the caliber of the guns, the middle tower was thrown out as useless.
                      That is, the arrival of a linearly elevated scheme before the PRC is associated with the general development of ships with two-gun turrets, and not some super advantages of this scheme :)))
                      1. -1
                        17 June 2019 19: 01
                        At that time, there were no battleships with linear-elevated layout of the THREE-ORUDIO towers all over the world?
                      2. +1
                        18 June 2019 10: 58
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        At that time, there were no battleships with linear-elevated layout of the THREE-ORUDIO towers all over the world?

                        But why? Were The Austrians. But the Germans, the British, the French and the United States used the two-armed to the last extreme, and the transition of the same Americans to the three-armed is associated with the desire to reduce the number of towers, and not with the scheme of their location
                      3. -1
                        19 June 2019 00: 49
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        the transition of the same Americans to three-guns is associated with a desire to reduce the number of towers

                        Firstly, the first American dreadnought was just four-tower linearly elevated. We have already been to this place. Accordingly, the following dreadnoughts were the same, but with additional towers in the middle. All the rest went from the rhombus right away to this decision, I do not recall other linear dreadnoughts except Dante. By the way, this is just the twin of Seva, they are laid with a difference of 3 days. In the subsequent series, the Italians, like everyone else, began to make elevated towers. The French and Germans generally combined elevated towers and a rhombus.

                        Secondly, the desire of the Americans to reduce the number of towers is due to the fact that they were lifted up by the middle tower with its corners and steam lines. Yes, to such an extent that they made a frankly unsuccessful decision with different towers, purely accountingly pushing these two barrels into two of the four towers
                      4. +2
                        18 June 2019 11: 05
                        What about Austria-Hungary?
                      5. +1
                        18 June 2019 11: 53
                        Quote: Trapper7
                        What about Austria-Hungary?

                        Yes, in principle, the same. The first version of the project implied 5 two-gun towers, so that they could be placed on the ship only linearly-sublime. Then they decided to catch up with the Italians, putting 12 * 305-mm, considered first the question of placing them in two-gun towers - two linearly-elevated in the bow and in the stern, and two more - in the middle of the hull. And then someone suggested a three-gun turret, so the 2 turrets in the middle of the ship became unnecessary, that's all.
                      6. +1
                        18 June 2019 12: 01
                        I deviate from the topic of course, but I really like their battleships. Very balanced.
                      7. 0
                        18 June 2019 12: 07
                        Quote: Trapper7
                        I deviate from the topic of course, but I really like their battleships. Very balanced.

                        Formally, yes. But the problem is that the ships of Austria-Hungary are too good (this applies not only to dreadnoughts) - where not to look, they have excellent weapons with strong protection and good speed. And in the aggregate of the performance characteristics, they constantly surpass all ships of the leading maritime powers.
                        And then one of two things. Or the Austro-Hungarians gave rise to a whole galaxy of brilliant designers, whom the British and Germans couldn’t hold a candle to, or, (much more likely) their ships had some very serious, but not obvious flaws, due to which all this magnificence was purchased
                      8. 0
                        18 June 2019 20: 41
                        Here you are right, all the newest Austrian dreadnoughts were very "roll" on turns at high speed. This was facilitated by the "pants" to which the propeller shafts were attached. Yes, and there were enough other constructive and construction flaws, did the same “Saint Istvan” need a lot to play the overkill?
                      9. -1
                        19 June 2019 00: 53
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        but unobvious flaws due to which all this splendor was bought

                        Or Austrians did not even battleship the Mediterranean, but the Adriatic. So seaworthiness, range, habitability, etc. not important. And the industrial and design level at the AB was quite decent.
        2. +5
          15 June 2019 12: 56
          "Sevastopoli" were laid simultaneously with the "Colossus" and the last "Ostfrindlands", so the question of who has the archaic arrangement of the GC towers is controversial :)
      4. +1
        16 June 2019 06: 57
        And, after all, there was also a shell of the 1912 model.
        Mass 513 kg.
        Probably too heavy for the gun, originally designed for a shell weighing 331 kg.
        1. +3
          16 June 2019 12: 12
          Well, to be honest, the shell was too heavy arr. 1911

          One of the leading artillery officers of the MGSH organizational and tactical department A.E. Koltovsky wrote: “With the introduction of a heavier projectile, I had to lower its initial speed to 762 m / s. At the same time, the pressure distribution in the gun channel no longer corresponds to the original design in the sense of calculating the longitudinal strength. This results in abnormal rapid wear of the guns and the loss of combat accuracy. In addition to the unsuccessful design, the cause of excessive burnout is the Obukhov cannon steel, not suitable for the manufacture of modern heavy tools in terms of mechanical properties. Thus, a strong projectile in itself does not receive proper use when fired. "

          but, IMHO, this is a bit overkill. quite a decent gun, if new, of course
      5. -1
        19 June 2019 15: 16
        With general agreement with you, I have to point out, in my opinion, the fundamental drawback of the Sevastopol: not insufficient, but ANYWHERE NOT SUITABLE seaworthiness. By definition, a battleship is a ship, as it is now fashionable to say, "Oceanic or far sea zone". In this project, such seaworthiness did not even smell. A reasonable question: why do we need an expensive ocean-going ship, which, according to the project and in fact, cannot "survive" the storm in the Bay of Biscay? Reminds of the current attempts to "replace" "ineffective" Project 11356 frigates, whose seaworthiness is respected even by the Indians, in whose blood the standards of the British Navy, with patrol ships and corvettes.
    3. -5
      15 June 2019 10: 34
      zero seaworthiness, cardboard booking (not only the thickness but also the armor plate fastening system), the only suitcases of 470kg are very good, in general, hello to the great shipbuilder of all time
      1. +3
        15 June 2019 11: 36
        Quote: rayruav
        zero seaworthiness

        It is quite normal seaworthiness against the rest of the dreadnoughts of the world. Which, by the way, was confirmed by the experience of the Paris Commune in the Bay of Biscay - after the nasal fixture, already nailed in Soviet times, was torn off, the ship had no problems with seaworthiness.
        Nose flooded, yes. And who did not flood? English gunners nasal 356-mm wells Wells in the battle with Bismarck almost knee-deep in the water worked
        1. -7
          15 June 2019 11: 50
          after that, the battleship returned to the French port, read the monographs in the marine collection, everything is well painted there and about supposedly normal seaworthiness
          1. +7
            15 June 2019 11: 52
            Quote: rayruav
            after that the battleship returned to the French port

            He returned due to injuries caused by water held by the nasal fixture. This does not apply to the original design of the battleship, and after its removal, I repeat, there were no problems
            Quote: rayruav
            read monographs in the maritime collection

            I respect the MK, but I have more serious sources
            1. -4
              15 June 2019 12: 34
              do you think the stupid Soviet engineers wanted to spoil the magnificent seaworthiness of the battleships and put nasal naddela, your serious sources say this?
              1. +6
                15 June 2019 13: 24
                Quote: rayruav
                Do your serious sources talk about this?

                My sources say that the Parisian nasal refit was calculated on the conditions of the Baltic Sea, with its relatively short (in length) wave, and it showed itself quite well there. But in the conditions of the Bay of Biscay, it turned into a scoop, not only scooping, but also retaining water that did not have time to go off the deck, which caused the destruction of the nasal fixture and damage to the ship, due to which he was forced to return to France. In addition, when the finishing was destroyed by the waves, the ship's seaworthiness improved significantly, but the hull damage still required repair
                Correct conclusions were drawn from what happened to the Paris Commune, and the nasal endowments of the Ogyabrins and Marat received a completely different design.
              2. +1
                17 June 2019 17: 36
                Quote: rayruav
                do you think the stupid Soviet engineers wanted to spoil the magnificent seaworthiness of the battleships and put nasal naddela, your serious sources say this?

                Soviet engineers in the 20s constantly came up against two questions: no money left и no frames... Therefore, instead of a full-fledged forecastle on the "Parisian", at first, they designed and installed a bow attachment, and the quality of the experience:
                in order to have experience at the time of such alterations and on other battleships

                In short, we decided to get by with a little blood. Did not work out.

                The money was so bad that the first of the modernized aircraft, the Marat, received practically nothing of what the fleet wanted. Even the boilers had to be left old and converted to liquid fuel. "Oktyabrina" was more fortunate - it was supplied with boilers from "Izmail". The only LK, which got it in full, turned out to be "Parisian" - boilers, armor, boules and even the HVN increased to 40 degrees.
    4. 0
      17 June 2019 12: 29
      The Bolsheviks came and didn’t come up with anything better than trying to modernize the best ships built in Imperial Russia, instead of building the very best. And the modernization failed and could not build anything on their own.
  5. 0
    14 June 2019 20: 09
    Good evening, dear author, still you are capable of objectivity in relation to these, so to speak, battleships good

    I am waiting for a description of problems with modernization projects due to the inherent features of the project. winked

    Threat. I cannot but note that soon there were almost no active battleships, whose superiority over these was not ... stop crushing Yes .

    Zy.Zy. Good article )
    1. +5
      14 June 2019 20: 16
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      Shl. I can not fail to note that soon there was simply no active battleships left, the superiority of which over these was not by ... stop crushing.

      Yes, because with the advent of superdreadnoughts, dreadnoughts of the first series with 305mm artillery are of course outdated. In this respect, Sevastopoli is no better and no worse than "Helgoland" or "Neptune"
      1. +3
        14 June 2019 20: 24
        I completely agree. I am not a fan of the Sevatostopol project, but I cannot say that the arr. 1911 (beyond all praise!) Made them contenders, at least, for prizes among the best in the first generation. But Orion (1912) is the second, Queen Elizabeth (1914) is the third.
        Shl. I beg your pardon, I will not have time to cut the fight "Sevastopol" - "Seydlitz". Hopefully July vacation - enough time. Creative successes!
  6. +2
    14 June 2019 20: 54
    Casemate artillery in the 41st .... this, of course, is something. Cut, + add boules, a node 2 smaller. so where should they run?
    1. +3
      14 June 2019 21: 33
      Casemate artillery in the 41st


      animeshnikov she also remained - this is generally nonsense
    2. +1
      17 June 2019 17: 46
      Quote: Sergei71
      Casemate artillery in the 41st .... this, of course, is something. Cut, + add boules, a node 2 smaller. so where should they run?

      Hehe hehe ... what are the minus two nodes? According to the test results of the "Parisian", which received everything you described, it turned out that:
      As a result of the work, the main thermoelectric characteristics of the ship changed as follows: ...
      a) standard displacement increased from 25 070 to 27 060 tons;
      b) full ... from 27190 to 30395t;
      c) metacentric height increased for standard displacement by 0,79 m, and for full displacement by 0,6 m;
      d) average precipitation decreased with a standard displacement of 0,63 m, with a full ... by 0,34 m;
      e) the speed of full speed from the installation of blisters decreased slightly - in all modes, no more than 0,48 knots, cruising range changed slightly ...
      © A.M. Vasiliev. Line ships of the "Marat" type.

      By 1941, "Sev" had another problem - the linear arrangement of the towers left almost no room for the location of the ZA. There were only two "pagodas" of superstructures (which, in terms of the number of tiers, confidently caught up with the Japanese LCs) and the roofs of the main buildings (problems with the supply + PUAZO). On the "Marat" and "Oktyabrin" pair 81-K had to be crammed as much on the aft cuts.
  7. +6
    14 June 2019 20: 54
    I pay tribute to "Marat" and "October Revolution", as well as the sailors of their crews. If it had not been for them, the Germans with their long-range artillery would have deployed near Leningrad much more efficiently, alas, the railway transporters with gun mounts here could not help much in counter-battery combat.
  8. +3
    14 June 2019 21: 27
    Immediately realized, who is the author.
    My respect to the author and honor. But what concerns me is this question.
    As far as I know, battleships (they are certainly powerful and beautiful) did not manifest themselves during the fighting on the same Black Sea.
    As far as I know, all issues were resolved by ships up to the "mosquito" fleet, as they say now.
    1. +5
      14 June 2019 22: 28
      Immediately realized, who is the author.

      Not surprising. Already on the first lines it is clear. good
      did not prove themselves during the fighting on the same Black Sea.

      You are wrong, managed to fight on black, you can even say successfully.
      1. +1
        15 June 2019 20: 32
        And how did they prove themselves? For example, I heard about the leader of "Tashkent". For a battleship ... what? .. No. The divers did their best. For this, my respect. In general, I respect submariners very much. Crawling on boats, heroic men.
        Landing assault boats, boaters again. Not without reason our plant is the first to be puzzled by the release of boats, mainly torpedoes.
        Photos looked, maman so many suitors midshipmen and lieutenants were (katernikov) ... to go crazy. She is at the factory from the very beginning can be said. feel This I already got into the lyrics. I apologize.
        1. +1
          15 June 2019 21: 38
          I'm talking about the First World War, when they drove Goeben, fired on the Turks and even kind of landed troops. It seems that not a single battleship on the Black Sea had survived to World War II. IMHO All the serious ships from the Black Sea to Bizerte left, where they disappeared.
          1. -4
            16 June 2019 22: 01
            Yes, this Geben can be said alone (except for a partner, either a light cruiser or a destroyer leader) drove the entire WWII to our Black Sea Fleet, and even with a Turkish crew. only the officers were Germanic. The Turks impressed him as the main striking force until the beginning of the 1950's.
            1. +3
              16 June 2019 23: 02
              You're wrong. At first he was ugly in all shopping mall nobody could catch him, but with the entry into operation of modern battleships he quickly changed his mind.
            2. -1
              17 June 2019 17: 31
              I must say, by all means - the year of birth of the RUSSIAN Navy must be looked for between 1961 and 1967, and his father is SERGEY GORSHKOV, not Peter the Great. as many people think. Until 1961 in Russia and the USSR. what was, according to the normal classification (American), was called "COAST GUARD".
              1. 0
                18 June 2019 14: 02
                Quote: Sergey K
                Until 1961 in Russia and the USSR. what was, according to the normal classification (American), was called "COAST GUARD".

                In fact, the Russian Empire before the Navy had the 4 fleet of the world, second only to England, France, and, slightly, Germany.
                1. 0
                  18 June 2019 16: 24
                  Actually, this place was only "on paper, by lists." I am forced to remind, even planning the operations of the 1st World War, Germany concentrated its entire "high seas fleet" against the "Grand Fleet", the Russian fleet in the Baltic, which had "modern at the time of laying" Sevastopol, was not taken into account by Germany at all, 1914 could not boast of the title of "sea power". By the way, their approach was fully justified. The Baltic Fleet was not noted for anything in the First World War.
                  1. 0
                    18 June 2019 19: 48
                    Quote: samaravega
                    Actually, this place was only "on paper, by lists." I have to remind, even when planning the operations of the 1st World War,

                    Are you sorry, can you read? let's do it again together
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Actually, the Russian Empire to RYAV had the 4 fleet of the world

                    RYAV, if anything, stands for "Russian-Japanese war".
                    1. -2
                      19 June 2019 11: 57
                      The essence does not change, it was Russian-Japanese proved that it was the 4th in the world only on paper.
            3. The comment was deleted.
            4. 0
              18 June 2019 11: 13
              Quote: sergey k
              Yes, this Geben can be said alone (except for a partner, either a light cruiser or a destroyer leader) drove the entire WWII to our Black Sea Fleet, and even with a Turkish crew. only the officers were Germanic. The Turks impressed him as the main striking force until the beginning of the 1950's.

              I have a strange feeling that you specifically provoke such statements. I can’t believe in your stupidity and seeing what you write, I can only name trolling and provocation.
          2. +1
            16 June 2019 22: 29
            On the Black Sea, the Paris Commune, which crossed over from the Baltic, was in WWII. She actively fired along the coast near Sevastopol, having shot the barrels completely by 1944, transported at once to the Marine Corps brigade and supply cargo, back evacuating. Peter C. Smith, in his book "The Sunset of the Lord of the Seas", devoted to battleships in WWII (mostly English), cites it as an example of the intensive and useful use of the battleship.
            1. 0
              16 June 2019 23: 04
              Thanks, corrected. And I completely forgot. Moreover, I remembered about the transition and repair in France, but I forgot about where. Sclerosis however.
  9. +4
    14 June 2019 22: 38
    The fourth battleship, Poltava, renamed Frunze in 1926, was the victim of a severe fire that occurred in 1919. The ship did not die, but suffered severe damage: the fire almost destroyed three steam boilers, the central artillery post, both bow conning (lower and upper), power plant, etc. As you know, in the future there were many plans to restore it in one capacity or another, once they even started repairing the ship, abandoning this business six months later, but the ship never returned to service. Therefore, we will not consider the history of Frunze.

    The fire happened in November 1919 and lasted 15 hours!
    The hull of the ship, named "Frunze", after the final decision was made in July 1939 about the inexpediency of restoration, was towed to the Coal Harbor of the Leningrad port and in 1941 was handed over for cutting into metal.
    After the outbreak of war, the corps was decided to be transferred to Kronstadt, but it was damaged by German aircraft and landed on the ground. at the edge of the Sea Canal. It was equipped with an artillery adjustment post.
    In January-May 1944, the corps was raised. Finally cut into metal in 1946.
  10. +2
    15 June 2019 03: 12
    Thanks Andrew hi ... Do not want to dwell in more detail on the "rebellious period" of battleships in Kronstadt. It's also a topic. smile
  11. +4
    15 June 2019 08: 51
    Quote: "... In 1918 Finnish troops laid siege to Fort Ino, located 60 km from St. Petersburg ..."
    Then it was Petrograd.
  12. +2
    15 June 2019 12: 02
    Thank! It is always very interesting to read your articles, I myself served the urgent fleet, I will wait to continue!
  13. +4
    15 June 2019 15: 35
    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    3. insufficient seaworthiness
    4.Not good range

    quite for the Baltic ...
  14. 0
    15 June 2019 15: 36
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    The scheme was outdated to WWII only because it required an uncluttered deck and did not leave room for air defense artillery

    not quite like that - the average caliber FOR could well have been put on sponsors - below the line of fire of the Civil Code ...
    1. +2
      15 June 2019 16: 19
      Quote: ser56
      not quite like that - the average caliber FOR could well have been put on sponsors - below the line of fire of the Civil Code ...

      Having rejected the average caliber at the same time? :))))) In any case, the possibility of placing anti-aircraft guns on the ship of a linearly elevated circuit is more
      1. -15
        15 June 2019 17: 17
        well, the guru of the sect of Andrew from Chelya Binsk where the answer about the good seaworthiness of battleships of the type of Sevastopol from serious sources you take in pieces from monographs without even making sure of the reliability and pull the noodles, go out to sea at least once or we proudly go on sofas
        1. +4
          15 June 2019 19: 32
          Quote: rayruav
          where is the answer about good seaworthiness of Sevastopol type battleships

          Can you read? Do I have a word to say about good seaworthiness? :)))
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          It is quite normal seaworthiness against the rest of the dreadnoughts of the world.

          At Sevastopol, seaworthiness was far from ideal, but this was the norm for the battleships of that time. Even in the LK WWII she was not always good.
          Quote: rayruav
          from serious sources you take pieces from monographs without even being convinced of authenticity and you pull in on noodles

          Well, disprove the Maritime Collection connoisseur :)))) Just not mournful whining, but facts
          1. -7
            15 June 2019 22: 14
            you sometimes read your opus your statements at the beginning of the battleships were a super duper question are you a normal person or are you curious against the background of your popularity, you are my friend deletant working on people far from the history of war shipbuilding
            1. +4
              16 June 2019 10: 56
              Quote: rayruav
              sometimes you read your opuses your statements on the beginning of the battleships were super duper question are you a normal person or are you against the background of popularity

              There are no arguments, only plaintive moaning. CTD
          2. -5
            16 June 2019 00: 05
            I come from Magnitogorsk, but I went to the sea in MMP. You’re not always right, and I know the history of shipbuilding on a solid 4 rest
            1. +1
              18 June 2019 08: 42
              Unfortunately, you don’t even know Russian in weak 3. Already hurts the eyes, even in Word check your messages before sending.
              1. +2
                18 June 2019 13: 39
                Quote: CTABEP
                Unfortunately, you don’t know Russian even in weak 3.

                Yes. Sometimes you want to take and ....

                GIVE:)))))
      2. 0
        17 June 2019 16: 29
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        At the same time abandoning the medium caliber? :))))

        in the era of advanced aviation (after 1930x), it lost its meaning for the LC - in 1500-2000, EM is a worthy goal for GK hi
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        In any case, the ability to place anti-aircraft guns on a ship of a linearly elevated scheme is more

        common, but not necessarily the right opinion ... bully the monitor circuit has 3 spaces between the towers on each side - this is a place for 6 towers ZA with good angles ... at the same time, all MZ towers can be equipped with MZA
        1. +1
          17 June 2019 17: 07
          Quote: ser56
          in the era of advanced aviation (after 1930x), it lost its meaning for the LC - in 1500-2000, EM is a worthy goal for GK

          In the afternoon, where the thread in the tropics - is possible. At night ... or even during the day in conditions of poor visibility - the PCM decides. In addition to that medium-caliber art is the most important anti-aircraft vehicle, if, of course, it is an effective vehicle.
          Quote: ser56
          common, but not necessarily the right opinion ...

          Not necessarily, of course. But true.
          Quote: ser56
          the monitor circuit has an 3 gap between the towers on each side - this is the place for 6 towers FOR with good angles ...

          Theoretically, yes, but in practice this will either greatly limit the corners of the turrets of the LN towers, or else it is necessary to make semi-submerged towers, which is difficult and, moreover, will severely limit the corners of these towers on surface targets.
          Quote: ser56
          at the same time on all the towers of the Civil Code you can put MZA

          It is possible, but this is a so-so decision, since the supply of ammunition will not and should be limited only to what lies on the tower itself. Or over-design the tower by providing appropriate lifts.
          1. 0
            18 June 2019 13: 58
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            At night ... or even during the day in conditions of poor visibility - PMK decides.

            delusion ... EM is necessary to go the distance of the torpedo volley, and this is the range of a direct shot GK LC ...
            And even one hit by the Civil Code for EM is fatal - see Thunder ... and under Narvik EM could not reach the LC
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            But true.

            stereotypes rule ... hi
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            it will greatly limit the corners of the aiming towers GK

            by no means, towers FOR should be below the line of fire ...
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            half-flooded towers must be made

            exactly!
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            and also greatly limits the angles of these towers for surface targets.

            you forgot about the sponsons ...
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Or redesign the tower by providing appropriate lifts.
            compared to the construction of the GK tower, these hoists are trifles ...
            1. 0
              18 June 2019 15: 05
              Quote: ser56
              delusion ... EM is necessary to go the distance of the torpedo volley, and this is the range of a direct shot GK LC ...

              It is better to read about the advantages of the CRA Brooklyn type over other US cruisers in the fight against destroyers in real sea battles.
              Quote: ser56
              And even one hit by the Civil Code for EM is fatal - see Thunder ... and under Narvik EM could not reach the LC

              far from always. In addition, the Thunder was hit, and in a night battle it is necessary to suppress the enemy’s ability to use weapons, these are different things.
              Quote: ser56
              by no means, towers FOR should be below the line of fire ...

              Only one? GK when shooting quite often and damaged the deck and superstructure.
              Quote: ser56
              you forgot about the sponsons ...

              Yes, I have not forgotten, but you just forgot what a trouble it is - the placement of artillery below the upper deck, and the reasons why this decision was never used on ships of WWII. And about the towers in the sponsors :)))))) This is just super-ambient in terms of design - the same supply of ammunition, for example.
              Quote: ser56
              compared to the construction of the GK tower, these hoists are trifles ...

              Remind at least one WWII LC where the "trifle" would have been successfully solved? :)))) Everyone managed only with what was placed on the tower.
              No one will make a hole in the armor of the tower for the lifts through its armored space (not to mention the fact that there is simply no place for them in the tower), but outside the tower, which, the crap, also rotates ...
              1. 0
                18 June 2019 17: 09
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                In addition, Thunder was shot down, and in a night battle it is necessary to suppress the enemy’s ability to use weapons, these are two different things

                Thunder lost the course - how to use torpedoes after that?
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                When shooting, the GK very often damaged both the deck and the superstructure.

                the deck and superstructures are not armor ... an inch is enough ... for example - PM fire control caps at the same ganguts ...
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                it’s just superfluous in terms of design - the same supply of ammunition, for example
                it is a matter of concrete design ...
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Remind at least one LK WWII where the "little thing" would be successfully solved?

                and nowhere this problem was solved, although the Ministry of Defense for the Towers often had to do it ...
                by the way - with a linearly elevated, FOR only on the upper towers ....
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Nobody will pierce the armor of a tower for the lifts through its reserved space

                from what? towers are full of holes, for example. for ejection sleeves ...
                I don’t see the subject of discussion at all - it’s a problem for you to place towers on sponsons - look at how the Americans put them in 2 tiers and nothing ... bully And their firing angles were, to put it mildly, not very on surface targets ... but no one considers this a problem - they rule the 2nd standards ...
                1. 0
                  18 June 2019 19: 54
                  Quote: ser56
                  Thunder lost the course - how to use torpedoes after that?

                  In the daytime - in any way, but at night in WWII - it could well, apparently it was not far away.
                  Quote: ser56
                  deck and superstructure no armor ... an inch is enough ...

                  Well, many did not have enough :)))
                  Quote: ser56
                  for example - the caps of the PM fire control at the same gangut ...

                  There is nothing to break in the cap :))) And here is the tower, with its rotating part
                  Quote: ser56
                  and nowhere this problem was solved, although the Ministry of Defense for the Towers often had to do it ...

                  Managed, because they had a powerful MZA placed on superstructures, etc. In the case of a linear main place for the MZA - just the tower, you can not push a lot on the superstructure
                  Quote: ser56
                  from what? towers are full of holes, for example. for ejection sleeves ...

                  Well, not in the roof of the same, which, happen what, enemy shells take
                  Quote: ser56
                  for you to place the towers on the sponsors problem - look at how the Americans put them in the 2 tier and nothing ...

                  According to the results of exploitation, the Americans called this scheme "a crime against a white man" and forgot it as a bad dream. And so - nothing, yes :)))))
                  1. 0
                    19 June 2019 17: 02
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    In the case of linear, the main place for MZA is just the tower, you can’t push a lot on add-ons

                    1) around the pipes there were developed superstructures in real life ...
                    2) competitors also have little space
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Well, not in the roof,

                    already answered, but I repeat - we weld the tube with a plug to the armor - the ammunition from the elevator is taken sideways
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    this scheme "a crime against a white man" and forgotten as a bad dream

                    1) did not know - thanks! good This scheme is also vulnerable to hits due to the proximity of the towers of the Criminal Code ... but 6 towers enter the linear scheme wonderfully ...
                    2) so that there are problems in both schemes, but the linear one is more tenacious due to the separation of artillery (including for), which was proved by Marat ...
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    at night in WWII - he could, it was obvious that it was not far.

                    and what's the difference - this is the range of a direct shot - they noticed darted from the main gun, hit - right away ... and from the SK you need to get a few hits, and fatal for launching torpedoes, which is not easy ...
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    There is nothing to break in the cap :))) And here is the tower, with its rotating part

                    agreed - you don’t like the recessed towers on the sponsons ... bully
        2. +3
          17 June 2019 17: 56
          Quote: ser56
          the monitor circuit has an 3 gap between the towers on each side - this is the place for 6 towers FOR with good angles ...

          It seems that the only way out of the NWA for the USSR LC was something like this:

          Quote: ser56
          at the same time on all the towers of the Civil Code you can put MZA

          Only with manual guidance. Or you have to pile the director on the roof of the tower, and then feed it all.
          1. 0
            18 June 2019 14: 01
            Quote: Alexey RA
            the only way out of the NWA for the USSR LC was something like this:

            can be 1-1,5m above the deck ... and yes ...
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Or you have to pile the director on the roof of the tower, and then feed it all.

            the mass is funny against the background of the mass of the tower, and the energy in the tower is crazy ... bully and the likelihood of a simultaneous battle between the Civil Code and the air raid is small ...
            1. 0
              18 June 2019 14: 29
              Quote: ser56
              can be 1-1,5m above the deck ... and yes ...

              But it will not blow such a protruding AU when firing a main gun at small air-guns? She’ll be right under the cuts of the trunks.
              Quote: ser56
              the mass is funny against the background of the mass of the tower, and the energy in the tower is crazy ...

              It’s not a mass matter, but how to power this farm on a rotating tower and how to make the director understand that its foundation is also rotating and the position of the MZA relative to the director can change.
              If you put the director outside the tower, then you need to somehow lead to the MPA through the tower MPUASO cables.
              Well, the traditional problem with the supply of ammunition to the roof of the tower - because the MZA devour them as if in themselves.
              Quote: ser56
              and the likelihood of a simultaneous battle between the Civil Code and the air raid is small ...

              Taki at least one LC from our trinity used GK when repelling air raids. smile
              1. 0
                18 June 2019 14: 43
                Quote: Alexey RA
                But it will not blow such a protruding AU when firing a main gun at small air-guns?

                the deck does not blow ...
                Quote: Alexey RA
                that its base also rotates and the position of the MHA relative to the director may change.

                MZA are welded to the tower, like the director ... bully The coordinates are relative, so there’s no difference: on the tower or on the deck ...
                Quote: Alexey RA
                u and the traditional problem with the supply of ammunition to the roof of the tower

                if during the general modernization - it is decided, the diameter of the barbet is large .....
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Bo MZA eat them as if not in themselves.

                but their total mass is funny in the coordinates of the Civil Code ... hi
                Quote: Alexey RA
                GK at reflection of air attacks.

                this is war ...
                1. 0
                  18 June 2019 19: 37
                  Quote: ser56
                  MZA are welded to the tower, like the director ...

                  And the tower is spinning. And with one of its positions, the director, when firing at the beam, is behind the MZA, and with another - to the left or right of the MZA. And what to do with the amendments?
                  Quote: ser56
                  The coordinates are relative, so there’s no difference: on the tower or on the deck ...

                  On deck, the director and the MHA cannot swap places. And on the tower - easier than light, just rotate it 180 degrees.
                  So, corrections will need to be made not only based on the azimuth of the target, but also based on the angle of the GN tower, which determines the current relative position of the director and the MZA relative to the ship's drift or relative to the target.
                  Quote: ser56
                  if during a general modernization - it is decided, the diameter of the barbet is large ..

                  Are we going to lay another elevator to the roof of the BS GK and weaken the roof booking by cutouts for supplying the power supply for the MZA? wink
                  In the tower, despite its dimensions, there is not so much free space - all kinds of GN drives there. VN, feed, surfs and locks take up quite a lot.
                  1. 0
                    19 June 2019 16: 53
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    And in one of its positions, the director, when firing at the beam, is behind the MZA,

                    what's the difference? We shoot at the target, but nothing changes regarding it ... hi
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    about and based on the angle of the GN tower,

                    why complicate the simple? bully there is a relative coordinate system, not a laboratory ....
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    and weaken the roof reservation with cutouts for supplying PSU for MZA?

                    one hole in the armor is more ... we weld an armored pipe with a lid to the edge, the ammunition from the elevator goes to the side - a classic - I saw it on Belfast ...
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    talons and castles take up quite a lot.

                    Well this is not a tank ... request It would be necessary - done ...
  15. -5
    15 June 2019 21: 15
    even then it turned out to be obvious the meaninglessness of large surface ships
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. -3
        15 June 2019 23: 23
        I am minus only those who want battleships for the sake of a career, or are afraid of pitching
        1. -8
          15 June 2019 23: 46
          Vladimir you are minus sectarians of the society of the dude from Chelyabinsk there lives a super connoisseur of military shipbuilding and is silent you just got under dispute
          1. -5
            16 June 2019 12: 50
            thanks for the support!
  16. -1
    16 June 2019 22: 40
    Andrey, thanks for the article.
    I don’t understand the howl of critics - the article is balanced, there is objective information about both the positive and negative qualities of these ships and the background of the history of their modernization - the RKKF had nothing more to modernize.
    Apparently, there are gentlemen who are waiting for only one thing - sweeping criticism. And meeting a different point of view, they are sausage.
  17. +2
    17 June 2019 12: 37
    Thank you, Andrew!
    Great article. I will wait for the continuation.
    Regarding the abandonment: in connection with the loss of personnel - for the 20s - it is advisable, for the 30s - it is criminal.
    At the time of construction, these battleships were average, BUT! With excellent artillery, neutralizing all but the last pre-Jutland generation. In the 20s, they were of limited value, like the battleships of the coastal defense of the Kronstadt region. After - only how incredibly expensive and bulky floating batteries, which was confirmed in the Baltic. At the Black Sea Fleet "Paris Commune" in 1941 - 1942 it was used against the coast, and after that it was put on lockdown.
    But these ships could become the cradle of the new fleet, passing their towers to new heavy cruisers.
  18. 5-9
    +2
    17 June 2019 12: 39
    Maybe I’m mistaken, but the battleship-building program of the Empire cost 800 lyam rubles .... as much as the whole program of rearmament of the army. Yes, if they were at least the best lacking analogue and they would have been built on time - this is money thrown away ... these 800 million spent on the ammunition industry and artillery could radically (for RI) change the course of the WWII. And these boats, in the case of completely unreasonable assumptions at the beginning and heroically brilliant-successful (also completely unreasonable assumption, which goes against the centuries-old traditions of the Russian fleet) of their use - no, no and no.
    1. +2
      17 June 2019 13: 45
      Quote: 5-9
      I may be mistaken, but the Empire’s battleship program cost 800 Lyamov rubles

      a little so wrong. Dreadnought cost RI on average 30 mln. Rub. so the construction of 7 LC is 210 million. However, up to 800 million, these are not battleships, but the total cost of executing all shipbuilding programs up to 1919 of approximately.
      Quote: 5-9
      as much as the whole program of rearmament.

      Let's clarify :))) In the Russian Empire, the total expenditure on the fleet after the RNW and before WWI was approximately 20% of the total expenditures on the armed forces, in some years significantly less, sometimes slightly more, EMNIP to 25%.
      Quote: 5-9
      These 800 million spent on the ammunition industry and artillery could drastically (for RI) change the course of WWI.

      Well, the problem is that they were not spent, but only planned to be "spent" :)))
      Quote: 5-9
      And these ships, in the case of completely unfounded assumptions in the beginning and heroic-ingenious-successful

      And without these "ships" the army would have to deploy a whole network of coastal fortresses in order to cover at least the main sections of the coast. By the way, the construction of a first-class fortress at that time cost 50-100 million rubles.
      1. 5-9
        +2
        17 June 2019 14: 04
        Maybe you're right about the money. But even the exhaust from the waste, let 200+ million rubles. - zero. From the fortresses, by the way, too. Almost everything, except for the secondary Osovts, were merged mediocre and shamefully. Again, why are these your fortresses? At the World Cup, they’ve completely managed with armadillos. But Gokhseeflotte come - that the LC system (small, late and weak), that not the system.
        It is clear that this is the whole afterglow, but there was nothing to enter the dreadnought race without entering the opportunity to win it.
        1. +2
          17 June 2019 15: 13
          Quote: 5-9
          At the World Cup, they’ve completely managed with armadillos.

          No, at the World Cup they cost four dreadnoughts (Nicholas was not completed, but nevertheless), which were built in response to the order of the Turks "Reshadie", "Sultan Osman". And start the war a little later, the potential enemy would have them and not "Goeben".
          Quote: 5-9
          And gohzeeflotte come

          Nah, the Grand Fleet is on guard.
          You see what the matter is, before the entry into service of the four "Sevastopol", the Germans could carry out an operation against St. Petersburg with the forces of their pre-dreadnoughts, of which they have 10 against our four (in fact, more, but a dozen more are not staffed), but after that , you need to involve already dreadnoughts. Moreover, the likelihood of losing any "Kaiser" is more than great, but this cannot be allowed, the Angles are already building a fleet faster than the Germans.
          And here in St. Petersburg - Putilovsky, Obukhov (field artillery), Sestroetsk (rifles) and much more.
          1. +1
            17 June 2019 18: 17
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            You see what the matter is, before the entry into service of the four "Sevastopol", the Germans could carry out an operation against St. Petersburg with the forces of their pre-dreadnoughts, of which they have 10 pieces against our four

            Could not. Because a breakthrough to the firing range of naval guns at St. Petersburg is a "run through the line." The Gulf of Finland is shallow in its eastern part, and you can only break through the fairway. Steering wheel to the left, steering wheel to the right - and you're stranded.
            That is, a column of armadillos will be forced to crawl from Cape Gray Horse along a shotway under fire from batteries of the southern coast, northern forts and batteries of the Kronstadt spit. In such conditions, even mortar batteries can work out with a bang.
          2. 0
            17 June 2019 18: 49
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            Germans could conduct an operation against Peter by the forces of their pre-dreadnought

            if you could not put mines and release submarines, you could reliably block the narrowness, and there was still a line of forts,
        2. +2
          17 June 2019 16: 01
          Quote: 5-9
          You may be right about the money. But the exhaust from the waste let 200 + million rubles. - zero.

          I won't even argue :)))) Zero is so zero :)))) True, the Germans never dared to meddle in Finnish, but about the World Cup war, and what happened after the introduction of the dreadnoughts, you don't know from the words " at all ", okay. But still I strongly advise you to study what the interruption of coal supplies from Zunguldak led to.
          Quote: 5-9
          Again, why are these fortresses of yours? At the World Cup itself armadillos cost.

          Then, that you make the classic mistake of any alternative worker - you change the reality for one side, but you are absolutely sure that the other side will act in the new reality just as in the previous one.
          And some battleships at the World Cup did not cost
          1. 5-9
            0
            18 June 2019 07: 57
            I’ll explain my point again. Even the most potentially and possibly the highest return on battleships does not correspond to the lowest (yours at 200 million ... how you can spend only 200 million out of 800 on battleships for the entire fleet - I don’t understand) the cost estimate 1/4 of the entire army rearmament program. And the adversary would have come seriously - reset them all. Those. to build 7 weak battleships, when an adversary can catch 10-12 strong ones - it is obviously pointless. The fact that thinking that the adversary will not build them or will build bad ones like yours is also stupid. I repeat - that this is an afterthought of course ... but it would be better if RI did not try to build them
            1. +3
              18 June 2019 11: 25
              Quote: 5-9
              Once again I will explain my thought. Even the most potentially and possible high return from the battleships does not correspond to the lowest (yours in 200 million ... how you can spend all 200 million from 800 for the entire fleet for battleships - I don't understand) 1 / 4 cost estimates from the whole army rearmament program

              And I do not understand what kind of rearmament program you mean. Specifically, which of the :)))) Because the ground vehicles asked for different things, some of their Wishlist went far beyond 2 billion rubles. If we compare the cost of building battleships with something real, well, ....
              In the PRC, we purchased almost 2,5 million rifles abroad. The expansion of its own production in order to produce these rifles before the war itself and the cost of the rifles themselves is about 152 million rubles, since the expansion and modernization of the weapons factory in Tula and the construction of a new arms factory in Yekaterinoslav, followed by the transfer of the Sestroretsky rifle factory, according to preliminary estimates, the treasury had to do in 65 721 930,00 rubles, and one rifle cost 35 rubles.
              As for the shell hunger ... I remember one of the foreign authors mentioned that the European armies during the intensive battles of the PRC shot an average 2 dreadnought for the day's 3 :)))
              Quote: 5-9
              Those. build 7 weak battleships

              They were not weak :)))
              Quote: 5-9
              when the adversary can catch up with the 10-12 of the strong is obviously pointless.

              Squadron battleship Slava, who single-handedly tore off the first attempt of the Germans to invade Riga, you do not agree :))))
        3. +2
          17 June 2019 18: 08
          Quote: 5-9
          From the fortresses, by the way, too. Almost everything, except for the secondary Osovts, were merged mediocre and shamefully.

          For which special thanks should be said to the War Department. Which, since the end of the First World War, built and strengthened the Warsaw UR, and in 1910 decided to abolish it, destroy the forts of Warsaw and turn Novogeorgievsk, which was originally the corner position of the fortified area, into an isolated fortress.
          Sukhomlinov went further in 1910 and convinced the tsar of the need to abandon the defense of even the advanced theater, i.e. Of the Privislyansk Territory, contrary to all its predecessors: Emperor Nicholas I, Milyutin, Obruchev, Kuropatkin. The fortresses Ivangorod and Warsaw on the Vistula, Zegř and Lomza on Narew were abolished, as well as all the forts connecting cr. Zegrzh with Warsaw on the eastern front of the Vistula-Narewski fortified area (Warsaw-Novogeorgievsk-Zegrzh) and all the long-term fortified bridge crossings over Narew, such as: Pultusk, Rozhany, Ostroleka. To blow up and tear down these fortresses and fortifications is prescribed as soon as possible. However, money was also needed to destroy the fortresses, and the lack of allocations, and partly the dull resistance of the local authorities, were the reason that by August 1914, only military casemates in the forts of Warsaw were blown up, while other structures remained in their old form. eh. incapable of resisting new means of siege artillery.
          © Velichko
          The reason for this decision is because of the insufficient capacity of the railway tracks, the Germans managed to reach the fortresses earlier than the mobilized Russian army. And instead of developing railway tracks, it was decided to destroy the first-class fortress. As a result, the old forts, which could be strengthened before the outbreak of the war, were abandoned, and the forts of the new fortresses were never built.
    2. +1
      17 June 2019 14: 14
      The Manikovsky program (18 large and 16 small factories) -655,2 million rubles in 1916 prices or 260 million in pre-war prices.
      It is not a matter of ships or even military ones; for readiness for war, thank Nicholas II and Witte personally for the golden ruble.
  19. 0
    17 June 2019 17: 43
    Thanks for the nice article, and for the great comments. as the argument says, truth is born. but please enlighten me. when I read the comments, which are very interesting - it suddenly appeared, the question is why the Germans, who before Bismarck, had neither a military fleet, nor experience in building warships, and finally even naval traditions, managed in a short time , build a first-class navy, and challenge the mistress of the seas of Britain? because Germany, that of Kaiser, that of Hitler, ordered music in the war at sea. it seems that the Germans became the main supporters of the raider war at sea. it was they who began to build L.K. to wage this war. these are their raiders, and the submarines were terrifying in the oceans, and not at all LC, usa and britain.
    1. 0
      17 June 2019 20: 47
      In fact, the Germans in the construction of the fleet were cut off from the heart, although, of course, they had reasonable decisions.
    2. 0
      18 June 2019 11: 33
      Quote: Unknown
      why the Germans, who before Bismarck, had neither a military fleet, nor experience in building warships, and finally even naval traditions, managed in a short time to build a first-class military ocean fleet,

      Germans are a technically advanced nation. Having a large number of engineers in a wide variety of industries, building a fleet is not such a big problem. True, they never built an oceanic fleet. North Sea Fleet - yes, we did it. Oceanic - no, and have not even tried it. And then, on a wave of patriotism, when "the party said - it is necessary, the burghers said - there is" the mass consciousness also began to change. And the experience of Hansa came in handy) It still sat in the blood)))
  20. 0
    18 June 2019 20: 59
    Yes, I admit a mistake about the ocean fleet. Well, anyway, questions remain. here is the RI fleet. glorious victories of the fleet at, cheshma, cape Kaliakria, Sinope, and then defeat and defeat in the Russo-Japanese war. In the WWII war, the fleet itself was also not celebrated with loud victories. confusion with the construction of a new fleet. But what about Germany? she, too, was left with the old LCs, or armadillos, called by different names. but quickly, in a short time, builds pocket LK, and excellent in all respects, Bismarck and Tirpitz. in addition to TC. and again, on their own, with their own developments, and plans for a war at sea. with a small number of ships, they win victories that remain in the history of the war at sea. there were defeats, which are also well-known to everyone, the same ,, bismarck ,,. and all this without historical traditions, and high-profile victories in the past. maybe this nation is just preparing for war, thoroughly, as they used to do everything they take.
    1. 0
      19 June 2019 01: 01
      Fleet - comes from industry, not from "tradition". There is an industry - you can make a fleet in 30 years, if there is a need. No - no traditions will help, just as they did not help the Greeks or, say, the Spaniards.

      I don’t understand what you want to discuss at all.
    2. +1
      19 June 2019 11: 57
      Quote: Unknown
      But what about Germany? she, too, was left with the old LCs, or armadillos, called by different names. but quickly, in a short time, builds pocket LK, and excellent in all respects, Bismarck and Tirpitz. in addition to TC. and again, on their own, with their developments, and plans for a war at sea

      Simply, despite Versailles, the Germans remained the industry. And we even lost the experience of making thick armor.
      It should be said that by February 1937 the maximum dimensions of the cemented armor plates produced by the Mariupol plant were 6,5 x 3,3 m, and Izhorsky - 6,1 x 3,1 m (in special cases up to 6,5 x 3,5, 32 m) with normal masses of one slab about 45 tons and maximum masses up to 53 tons (after partial reconstruction of plants - up to 10 tons, although the fleet required 57 tons for 1938% of the plates). In addition, due to the lack of technical conditions and mastered technology, the factories, and with them NKOP, even in 200 refused to manufacture plates with a thickness of more than XNUMX mm.
      Due to the critical situation in the production of armor, especially cemented armor (such as CC), at the end of 1939 an attempt was made to purchase it in Germany. By April 1940, the company Krupp agreed to supply armor, but offered it worse quality than supplied by the German Navy.

      And it will be useful to recall that for LK Pr. 23 booking was designed with thicknesses almost twice as large as in previous LK.
      Quote: Unknown
      with a small number of ships, they win victories that remain in the history of the war at sea.

      Can you list the victories of the Kriegsmarine at sea? And then even the sinking of "Hood" resulted in the loss of "Bismarck" - the only German LK at that time (I do not consider the "Charles" and "Gnei" - it was dangerous for these nedolinkers to fight even with LKR built during WWI).
      1. 0
        19 June 2019 13: 13
        Quote: Alexey RA
        even these battles with the LKR built during the WWI were dangerous to these half-hearted soldiers).

        Sorry? If you are talking about Hood as LCR of the times of WWI, then fighting with him is a lot of danger for anyone. If about Ripals-Rinaun-Congo, then there is more or less balance.
      2. 0
        19 June 2019 17: 23
        Godfrey and Charles are by no means "nedolinkors", but the wrong heavy cruisers. In general, quite good ships with excellent artillery were stuck on battleship armor, which is useless in a battle with battleships. Moreover, the PMK 150-mm was introduced. And so, in the initial project, the third tower and replace the deck 150-mm with anti-aircraft guns, and the power plant from the battlecruisers of the "O" type (or vice versa - one shaft - diesel, two shafts - steam turbines), and work with contours so that the nose did not peck - there would be candy.
  21. 0
    20 June 2019 07: 58
    warships are ordered by admirals, with their vision, of fighting at sea. Our blacksmith saw the fighting in the Baltic, differently than the German Navy. Therefore, our engineers were wise with LK, such as Sevastopol, which, as they correctly write in the comments, managed to grow old before it was born. and what happened? these redone LCs did not show themselves in any way, neither in Soviet-Finnish, nor in the Second World War. The Gulf of Finland is shallow, an abundance of skerries, and cans makes maneuvers of large ships a problem. therefore, he pushed, "Marat," like an elephant in a china shop, in the bay so that at least, no matter how, crush the Finnish coastal batteries. and all without result. asked what is the use of such LC? further - France and Italy competed in the power of the fleets, increased their armor on the LC, and increased the caliber of guns, and in the pre-war reference books they occupied 1–2 places in the rating of Mediterranean fleets. but the war began, and where did these fleets end up? the French were badly battered in Mers-el-Kebir, and LK scattered somewhere, and some, in general, were flooded. Italy with its LC, stood at its base in the taranto, periodically subjected to attacks by the British, both from the air and from the sea, almost the entire war. like that. that’s why I need to stop counting, the thickness of the armor, and the power of the guns, and to understand the main thing, as different countries saw the war at sea, and created ships under their vision. a vivid example of the same Germans. Given the mistakes of the WWII, and taking something sensible, they created high-speed and powerful artillery LC. these are raiders. time battles squadron squadron is a thing of the past. the Germans understood the main thing - it was necessary to deprive the probable opponents of the merchant fleet, on which they were very dependent, especially England. Here, under such a naval war, they created their own Navy. and their successful landing, under the noses of Britain, in Norway, and the breakthrough of their LC in 1942, in the ports of Germany, they say that the Germans had the main thing. it is the will to win, the will to fight, no matter what, and it brought success, at a certain stage.