Battleships type "Marat". Modernization of the main caliber

58
Soviet battleships in between wars. It is well known that of the three remaining Soviet battleships in the ranks, the Marat received minimal modernization, and the Paris Commune - to the greatest extent. Consider changes in the combat potential of the main gauge of ships of this type.

Main caliber What happened


The main armament of the battleships were 12 * 305-mm guns of the 1907 model, which had a barrel size 52 caliber and were placed in four three-gun turrets. The maximum elevation angle of these units was 25 degrees, and the maximum firing range of 470,9 kg. projectile, released with an initial speed 762 m / s, was 132 cable. The pass rate of fire was 1,8 rds / min, while the loading was performed in the range of elevation angles from -5 to + 15 degrees.



The frontal and side armor plates of the towers were 203 mm thick, the back side (for counterweight) 305 mm, the roof 76 mm. Barbety to the upper deck, and slightly lower 150 mm armor defended it, then - only 75 mm, though 1-th and 4-th towers had a bow and stern gain to 125 and 200 mm, respectively.

For 305-mm / 52 guns arr. 1907, the specialists of pre-revolutionary Russia created 3 of the type of military ammunition: armor-piercing, semi-armored and high-explosive. All of them were called 1911 g. Projectiles, had a mass of 470,9 kg, initial velocity 762 m / s, and firing range at an angle of elevation of 25 guns degrees. in 132 cable. They differed in length - 1 191, 1 530 and 1 491 mm, the content of explosive - 12,96, 61,5 and 58,8 kg, respectively. In this case, the armor-piercing projectile had a KTMB detonator, and a semi-armor-piercing and high-explosive projectile - MRD mod. 1913 g. There was also a practical ammunition with a mass of 470,9 kg, which was a steel bar, that is, did not contain any explosives or a detonator.

As for the fire control system, it was extremely confusing on battleships of the “Sevastopol” type. The ships had a 2 rangefinder with a base in 6 m, located on the fore and aft superstructures, which provided the work of two central posts, which, among other functions, also contained firing controls. The battleship towers did not complete the range finders.

But the fire control devices themselves (PUS) were a perfect “hodgepodge”, and the thing was this. Initially, the newest PUS developed by Erickson was supposed to be installed on the Sevastopol type battleships. This, by the way, does not mean that the order was “floated” abroad, because the development was carried out by the Russian branch of this company and the Russian specialists who worked in it. Alas, they did not do it in time, and by the time the Sevastopol was completed, the Erickson fire control system was not yet ready.

As a result, the battleships installed the good old system of the company "Geisler and K" arr. 1910 d. Unfortunately, for all its merits, it is still impossible to consider “Geisler and K” a full-fledged OMS, for several serious reasons:

1. The “Geisler and K” PUS did not independently develop an amendment to the angle of horizontal guidance, that is, the preemption for firing, and the viewfinder was not part of it at all.

2. PUS independently calculated the angle of vertical guidance, but as the data required for the calculation required the magnitude of the distance change (VIR) and the magnitude of the bearing change (VIP). That is, the officers controlling the artillery fire had to independently determine the parameters of the target and their own ship (course, speed, distance, bearing) and calculate the VIR and VIP manually.

However, due to the unavailability of the Erikson MSA, the fleet purchased the British Pollen instruments, which were an automatic calculation tool for VIR and VIP, that is, in essence, they eradicated the main drawback of the Heusler. The device Pollana successfully integrated with the "Geisler and K", and later the resulting MSA was supplemented with separate Erickson instruments. As a result, by 1917, all four Baltic battleships had a completely modern, by the standards of the First World War, centralized fire control system of the main caliber. In terms of its functionality, it appears to be somewhat losing to the British SLA and was approximately on par with the German ones, but the German ships exceeded the Sevastopoli in the number of range finders.

Modernization of tower installations


Strange as it may seem, but the volumes of modernization of the guns and towers of the Soviet battleships are not completely clear, since the sources have significant differences. It is reliably known that 305-mm / 52 guns of all battleships received lined barrels instead of fastened ones, which greatly simplified the procedure for their replacement. Also the volume of alterations of tower installations on the battleship "Paris Commune" is more or less clear.



Most of the three battleships of the “Paris Commune” towers carried out an increased elevation angle to 40 degrees, with the result that the range of the standard 470,9 kg projectile increased to 29 cables, that is, from 132 to 161 cable. The rate of fire also increased: for this, the towers were “transferred” to a fixed loading angle (+ 6 degrees), which made it possible to significantly increase the power of the vertical guidance, loading and feed drives. As a result, the rate of fire increased from passport 1,8 to 2,2 rpm. The price for this was an increase in the mass of the rotating part of the turret on 4 tons and the rejection of the reserve system of loading guns.

But with the towers of the Marat and the October Revolution, alas, there is no clarity. A.M. Vasiliev, in his works on the modernization of battleships, indicates:

“In 1928 — 1931, we managed to upgrade 305-mm turrets MK-3-12 only in terms of the rate of fire: at elevation angles of the guns from -3, hail. to + 15 hail. it reached 3 v / min, and at large angles (up to the limit 25 °) it was 2 v / min (instead of the previous 1,8 at all angles). ”


But S.I. Titushkin and L.I. Amirkhanov, in his work The Main Caliber of Battleships, does not report any such upgrades to the Marat and the October Revolution, but, on the contrary, directly indicates that their rate of fire has remained the same. The author of this article can only assume that after all, S.I. Titushkin and L.I. Amirkhanov, since their work is more specialized in the field of artillery than the works of A.M. Vasiliev. Perhaps there was a confusion between what they wanted to do and what they really did. The fact is that S.I. Titushkin and L.I. Amirkhanov pointed out that such upgrades, with the rate of fire being brought to 3, were planned to be carried out at min / min for the towers of the battleship Frunze, when there were still plans to reorganize into a battle cruiser. I must say that the 2 towers of this battleship were later refitted along the lines of the Paris Commune, but this happened after the war, when they were installed on the concrete blocks of the No. XXUMX battery near Sevastopol.


Post-war photo of the restored battery №30


Thus, the firing range of the "Marat" and the "October Revolution" remained the same for sure - 132 cable, and, apparently, the rate of fire remained the same, that is, at the level of 1,8 rpm.

The armor protection of the towers of all three battleships received a single reinforcement - the thickness of the tower roof was increased from 76 to 152 mm, otherwise the thickness of the armor remained the same.

As for fire control systems, everything is not completely obvious here either. Let's start with range finders: it is very important that the number of range finders that ensure the operation of the main caliber MSA has increased significantly, because all the towers of all three battleships received their own range finders. In this case, SI Titushkin and L.I. Amirkhanov claims that Italian OG rangefinders with 8 m base, developed by Galileo, were installed in the Marat towers, while the October Revolution towers also received 8-meter rangefinders, but of a different brand: DM-8 firms "Zeiss". Unfortunately, dear authors do not report anything about range finders installed in the battleship “Paris Commune” towers, although their presence is clearly visible in the photographs and drawings of the ship.


This photo of the "October Revolution" tower rangefinders are seen especially well


At the same time, A.V. Platonov in his "Encyclopedia of Surface Ships" gives completely different data: that the Tseiss rangefinders were installed on the Marat and the October Revolution, and the Paris Commune were installed on the Italian Marat. But at least the authors agree that all these rangefinders had a base of 8 meters.

However, of course, these rangefinders had auxiliary significance, because, firstly, they were at a relatively low altitude and their horizon was not too large. And secondly, they were used as an additional, clarifying tool for the equipment of command-ranging posts (KDP) installed on the battleships.

Absolutely all sources agree that two KDP-6 B-22s were installed at the October Revolution and the Paris Commune to service the main caliber, but there was no clarity on what was put on the Marat. Oddly enough, but S.I. Titushkin and L.I. Amirkhanov claims that this battleship received 2 KDP of the same modification, but this is an obvious misprint, because in all the photos of the battleship we see only one similar KDP.



At the same time, a number of authors, including A.V. Platonov, reported that the "Marat", although it received a KDP-6, but an earlier modification of the B-8. The main differences between the B-8 and the B-22 were the absence of the centering sight and the telescopic tubes of the post gunners. Accordingly, the weight of the KDP-6 B-8 was on 2,5 tons, and the calculation on the 2 of a person is less than that of the KDP-6 B-22.

But the most “funny” discrepancy in the sources is the number of range finders in one KDP-6, no matter what modification. S.I. Titushkin and L.I. Amirkhanov indicates that this KDP was staffed with two rangefinders with a DM-6 brand 6 meter base. But A.V. Platonov indicates the presence of only one such rangefinder. Who is right is difficult to say, because the author of this article is not an expert in fire control systems, and the study of photographs gives almost nothing. Some photos seem to indicate that there are two range finders, and not one.



But on the other hand, from the drawings it follows that the second "range finder" is not a range finder at all, but something shorter.



Nevertheless, only one KDP for the main caliber of the Marat was clearly not enough; therefore, almost all sources indicate that they were going to openly open one more rangefinder at the 8-meter base. Interestingly, A.V. Platonov in one of his monographs argued that this rangefinder was still installed on the aft superstructure, but the author could not find anywhere else a photo of the “Marat” that would confirm this statement. It must be said that the device of such dimensions is extremely noticeable, and its absence in the photo clearly indicates that the installation of this rangefinder has remained only an intention and has never been embodied "in the metal." However, in his later works A.V. Platonov no longer wrote about the presence of this rangefinder on the Marat.

As for the fire control devices, everything is much simpler. As regards the main caliber, the “Marat” remained exactly with what it had been installed during the First World War, that is, the “hodgepodge” of the Geisler and K devices, Erickson and Pollan. Thus, the battleship, of course, at the beginning of World War II had a central guidance system for the guns of the main caliber, but it was impossible to call it modern. Of course, in terms of their qualities, the Marat "MSA" lagged far behind the equipment installed on modern battleships of the world, but still it should not be considered completely incapacitated. As an example, the British light cruisers of the Linder type, which placed the SLA not even at the level of the 1 World War I, were worse, because it was deliberately simplified for the sake of economy: nevertheless, these English cruisers participated in many battle episodes and Reached quite acceptable shooting accuracy for their 152-mm guns.

The situation was somewhat better with the central guidance of the battleships October Revolution and the Paris Commune, because they received more advanced AKUR vehicles. What kind of appliances?

Since 1925, the so-called direct-control apparatus of the APKN was developed in the USSR, which was planned to be installed as an element of the LMS on all large ships, both of new construction (when it comes to that), and undergoing modernization. This device had to independently, in automatic mode, calculate the scope and rear sight, thereby completely freeing the artillery firing manager from working with tables and other manual work and calculations. The work was difficult and progressed slowly, so management fleet in 1928, insisted on the parallel acquisition of the British Vickers AKUR device and the simultaneous transmission of data from the firing machine and teams of the American company Sperry.

However, when the mentioned instrument sets were at our disposal, it turned out that they did not meet the expectations of our specialists. So, AKUR had a too large error in determining the course angle - 16 thousandths of a distance, and the transfer “Sperry” did not work at all. As a result, the following happened: the specialists of the Electropribor plant, engaged in the development of APKN, were forced to "retrain" for revision of the AKUR and the simultaneous transfer of Sperry - the work on the latter was all the more good because the similar Soviet product was in the final stage of development. In the end, the developers, using a number of APCN solutions, managed to achieve the required accuracy parameters from AKUR, put them into working condition and combine the Sperry synchronous transfer with it, and get a fully workable SLA at the output that is far superior to the combination of Heusler, Pollen and Erickson, who were equipped with dreadnoughts like "Sevastopol". Such AKUR received the "Paris Commune" and the "October Revolution."



Of course, AKUR was a great step forward in comparison with the MSA of the 1 World War I era, but by the beginning of the Great Patriotic War they were largely outdated. Work on the creation of the PUS in the USSR continued further: for the leaders of the Leningrad type, the Galileo shooting control devices were acquired, which possessed a number of possibilities not accessible to AKUR. So, for example, AKUR ensured firing of the main caliber by observing signs of falling, or the so-called “fork”, when the main artilleryman achieved a volley, made a flight and then undershoot, and then began to “half” the distance. But that was all, but PUS “Molniya” and “Molniya ATS”, developed on the basis of the Italian MSA, could use all three methods of controlling artillery fire known at that time. The method of observing the signs of incidence described above, and in addition, new PUS could use the method of measured deflections, when the KDP range finders measured the distance from the target ship to bursts from the drops of projectiles, and the method of measured distances, when the range finder determined the distance from the leading ship to the burst shells, and compared with the calculated data on the position of the target ship.

"Lightning" and "Lightning AC" were installed on the 26 and 26-bis cruisers, respectively, and, in general, we can say that the main caliber of the main caliber of the Kirov and Maxim Gorky-type cruisers was significantly superior in its effectiveness. installed on domestic battleships, not to mention the "Geisler" / Pollana / Erikson on the "Marat".

As for the ammunition for 305-mm guns, in the pre-war USSR, different types of ammunition were developed for the 305-mm guns, but only one was adopted.

The first "shell" direction was the creation of modified armor-piercing and high-explosive shells of an improved form. They were supposed to have the same mass as the shells arr. 1911, that is, 470,9 kg, but at the same time their range of fire should have increased by 15-17%, and armor penetration - improved, and the effect was to be the most replacement at distances over 75 cable. It is not entirely clear at what stage these works stopped: the fact is that they could fully realize their qualities only in the implements with which they planned to arm heavy cruisers of the Kronstadt type. The latter should have reported the initial speed of 470,9 kg to the 900 projectile, m / s, while the 305-mm / 52 gun obr. 1907, which armed Sevastopol type battleships - only 762 m / s. As you know, 305-mm artillery with such record-breaking characteristics before the war was never created; accordingly, one should not be surprised at the lack of ammunition for them. However, it cannot be excluded that the creation of new projectiles was stopped due to some other, structural or technological difficulties.

The second type of ammunition, the development of which looked simply extremely promising, became a “semi-armored projectile arr. 1915 of drawing No. 182. In fact, this projectile was not created in 1915, but in 1932, but experimented with it before 1937. It was a “super heavy” 305-mm ammunition, whose weight was 581,4 kg. Of course, such a projectile could only be fired with an initial speed reduced to 690-700 m / s, but due to better energy conservation, the firing range of this ammunition exceeded that of 470,9 kg shells by 3%.

However, the most ambitious "bonus" of the increased mass was extremely high armor penetration. If 470,9 kg, according to Soviet calculations (hereinafter, according to armor penetration, the data of SI Titushkin and LI Amirkhanova are given) punched 100 mm vertical armor cable on 207, then 581,4 kg projectile on 90 cable could pierce 330 mm armored plate.

Unfortunately, the “super heavy” projectile was never adopted: there were problems with accuracy of fire, besides, the ammunition turned out to be too long, and the designers could not ensure its longitudinal strength - it was often destroyed when overcoming armor barriers. In addition, the feeding and charging mechanisms of the Sevastopol type battleships were not designed to work with ammunition of such a mass.

As a result of all this work on the "superheavy" projectile were curtailed, which is a pity. Interestingly, the Americans, returning to the 305-mm caliber on the "big cruisers" of the "Alaska" type, used similar ammunition as the main one. Their guns fired 516,5 armor-piercing kilograms with projectiles with an initial velocity of 762 m / s, which is at a vertical angle in 45 hail. provided the firing range of the 193 cable and pierced the 323 mm armor at the 100 cable distance.


"Alaska"


And finally, the third direction of improving ammunition for domestic 305-mm / 52 guns was the creation of a "high-explosive long-range projectile arr. 1928. This munition had a mass of only 314 kg, but due to this its initial speed reached 920 or 950 m / s (unfortunately, somewhere in SI Titushkin and LI Amirkhanova crept in a typo, as they give both values). The increase in firing range turned out to be enormous - if the upgraded Paris Commune tower installations were able to send a 470,9 kg projectile into the 161 cable course, then the lightweight 314-kilogram - on the 241 cable, that is, one and a half times further. Well, when shooting with an elevation angle of 25 grad., Which remained the limit for the battleships Marat and the October Revolution, the firing range increased from 132 to 186 cable.

At the same time, the explosive mass in the new projectile was almost as good as the conventional high explosive ordnance 470,9 kg, and was 55,2 kg versus 58,8 kg. The only parameter by which the lighter projectiles were inferior to conventional ammunition was the dispersion, which the 314 had kg of projectiles was quite large. But this deficiency was not considered critical, since the said shells were intended for the shelling of coastal area targets. “High-explosive long-range shells arr. 1928 g. "Were put into service in 1939 g., Becoming the only projectile of this caliber, created in the pre-war USSR.

With this, the author finishes the description of the main-caliber artillery of the upgraded battleships Marat, the October Revolution and the Paris Commune, and proceeds to the anti-mine caliber.

To be continued ...
58 comments
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  1. 0
    21 June 2019 18: 34
    Even in that part I wanted to write, it was not worth calling these ships by French names. I will not go into history, but it is enough to recall Admiral Nakhimov, and the incident with the river niner named after him ... As Captain Vrungel said, in one Soviet film: "It doesn't matter, it's half the trouble" ...
    1. +3
      21 June 2019 18: 42
      Quote: sabakina
      Even in that part I wanted to write, it was not necessary to call these ships French names.

      Well, yes ... LK "Marat" actually died in a "bath" - in the harbor of Kronstadt.
      1. 0
        21 June 2019 21: 15
        Quote: Alexey RA

        Well, yes ... LK "Marat" actually died in a "bath" - in the harbor of Kronstadt.


        The term "perished" is incorrect in this case. 23.09.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX, the battleship in Kronstadt received heavy damage from the attacks of enemy aircraft, after which it was without a move and was used as a floating battery, which annoyed the Nazis for a long time. Sunken ships do not behave like that.

        After the war, a project was launched to fully restore the battleship, but the implementation of this project was deemed inappropriate.
        1. +4
          22 June 2019 01: 09
          Semantics. During World War II, the Italians in Alexandria damaged two English battleships so badly that they actually sank. But, since the depth at which they sank turned out to be small, the British did not recognize their sinking. In the case of the "Marat" - the battleship sank in a similar way, but, in addition, lost its bow. The rest was raised and used as a floating battery.
          1. 0
            24 June 2019 13: 46
            Quote: ignoto
            Semantics.

            Did the British battleships continue to fight after the "sinking"? Marat, yes, the dead do not fight. Maresyev's legs were amputated, but he still continued to fight. wink
        2. +2
          24 June 2019 10: 36
          Quote: Minato2020
          The term "perished" is incorrect in this case.

          Как battleship "Marat" just died - it turned into a non-self-propelled floating battery, which no longer went out to sea.
          Now, if it was restored (as "Valiant" and "Koroleva", the drowned from the PX or the same "Aurora", which spent almost the entire war on the ground in Oranienbaum) - then yes, he could not be considered dead.
    2. +4
      22 June 2019 05: 40
      Strange logic. In the Russian navy there was a ship named "Paris", which proved itself very worthy in the Crimean War, but the battleship named "Emperor Nicholas 1" was taken prisoner.
    3. 0
      22 June 2019 19: 16
      Quote: sabakina
      case of a river boat named after him

      Do not understand.
      It seems that you are confusing Nakhimov’s death in 86 (the former transatlantic Berlin collided with a grain carrier in the Black Sea) and the accident of 83 in Ulyanovsk with the motor ship Alexander Suvorov, which entered the non-navigational span of the bridge, which led to a virtually traumatic amputation of the upper decks and numerous casualties.
    4. +1
      25 June 2019 07: 55
      There are "unlucky" names. There were 4 "Nakhimovs" in the Russian navy and they all ended badly
  2. +1
    21 June 2019 19: 14
    Andrei hi as always, thanks for the article! Although it will rarely be possible to read due to lack of time! Deletant's question - why didn't they use the "golden mean" method - didn't create a projectile weighing 350 kg? It would be very useful both as armor-piercing and as high-explosive. ..
    1. +1
      22 June 2019 10: 12
      Quote: Thrifty
      Deletant's question - why didn't they use the "golden mean" method - didn't create a projectile weighing 350 kg?

      It's very simple :))) In those days there were restrictions on the SLA, so there was no point in shooting too far (actually - beyond the horizon) at the warship. At the same time, the heavier the projectile, the better its armor penetration (including because it loses speed more slowly in flight), more explosives, etc. Therefore, specialization was better - light long-range for fire along the coast and difficult for sea war.
  3. -4
    21 June 2019 21: 06
    I don’t understand this moment.
    Initially, the battleships of the Sevastopol type were supposed to be equipped with the latest EMC developed by Erickson's company. Alas, they did not manage on time, and by the time the Sevastopol was completed, the Erickson fire control system was not yet ready.

    As a result, on the battleships they installed the good old system of the company "Geisler and K" arr. 1910 g

    Well, they did not manage by the time of completion. But then it was time to deliver. Or Erickson’s company immediately turned off all development?
    1. 0
      22 June 2019 10: 13
      Quote: lucul
      Well, did not cope by the time of completion. But then it was time to deliver.

      They did not refuse, but at the same time they ordered the devices of Pollen. Therefore, in the end, they put a hodgepodge - a mixture of both
      1. 0
        22 June 2019 15: 10
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Therefore, they put in the end a hodgepodge - a mixture of both

        which is reasonable, chose the best ... lol
        1. +1
          22 June 2019 15: 40
          Quote: ser56
          which is reasonable, chose the best ...

          But this is unknown. Just if Pollan was ordered, then Erikson wouldn’t be able to re-order them, why should the 2 of the device on one LC? Developed for the future, for new ships.
          1. 0
            22 June 2019 16: 02
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            But this is unknown.

            I don’t think that they took bad from different systems ...
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Developed for the future, for new ships.

            therefore, a comparison of different systems and approaches is extremely useful ... and they made lightning quite at the level ...
  4. +3
    21 June 2019 21: 13
    My grandfather’s brother before the Second World War served on Marat LC, and then transferred to SKR Snow, where he died during a sad transition
  5. 0
    21 June 2019 22: 23
    As a result, on the battleships they installed the good old system of the company "Geisler and K" arr. 1910

    I involuntarily remembered from the book "Notes of an artillery officer of the battleship" Peresvet ""
    Geisler appliances {180}, telephones, bells, drums and horns are no good; the only transmission in battle is voice using pipes.

    However, this is about the first versions of the system of the same Geisler. Somehow she did not please the sailors. :)
    1. 0
      21 June 2019 22: 49
      Quote: Saxahorse
      As a result, on the battleships they installed the good old system of the company "Geisler and K" arr. 1910

      I involuntarily remembered from the book "Notes of an artillery officer of the battleship" Peresvet ""
      Geisler appliances {180}, telephones, bells, drums and horns are no good; the only transmission in battle is voice using pipes.

      However, this is about the first versions of the system of the same Geisler. Somehow she did not please the sailors. :)


      Drums and horns are very suitable.
  6. +2
    21 June 2019 23: 11
    But the most “funny” discrepancy in the sources is the number of rangefinders in one KDP-6, no matter what modification. S.I. Titushkin and L.I. Amirkhanov indicate that such a KDP was equipped with two rangefinders with a base of 6 meters of the DM-6 brand. And here A.V. Platonov indicates the presence of only one such rangefinder. It is difficult to say who is right, because the author of this article is not a specialist in fire control systems, and studying photographs gives practically nothing.
    Just studying the photos shows that there are two range finders.
    1. +2
      21 June 2019 23: 12

      In this photo, both KDP rangefinders are also clearly visible.
      1. +2
        21 June 2019 23: 26

        As for the drawing, the KDP is drawn in the same way on the drawing of the reconstruction project for the "October Revolution". Perhaps the project involved the installation of multi-base rangefinders.
        1. +1
          22 June 2019 10: 16
          Quote: Undecim
          Just studying the photos shows that there are two range finders.

          But this is not a fact, because when studying photos it seems that range finders are from different bases. And this should not be, therefore, perhaps the second thing that we see is not a range finder at all, but, say, stereo tubes
          1. +3
            22 June 2019 10: 41
            No Andrew, the stereo tube looks completely different. It will be necessary to delve into the archives to find a photo of the KDP from a normal angle. But even assuming that rangefinders have a different base, this does not negate the fact that there are two of them.
            1. +1
              22 June 2019 10: 43
              Quote: Undecim
              But even assuming that range finders have a different base

              It’s also an option I’m willing to believe in (this thought came when I looked at some photos). But then why is it not indicated in any source? That is because shitty :)))) I would very much like to understand, I will be very grateful for any material hi
              1. +4
                22 June 2019 10: 59
                I myself am interested in sorting it out, especially since the information that the KDP on these battleships had just a range finder and a stereo tube wanders around the forums. As soon as I find something, I’ll inform you.
                In principle, the combination of a rangefinder and a stereo tube looks quite logical, since the rangefinder is not suitable for adjusting the firing and you must have the appropriate means of observation.
                Try to understand.
              2. +1
                22 June 2019 23: 01
                Given that the information on the device and configuration of the KDP of the battleships under consideration is just crumbs, we will proceed from what is.
                For starters, there is information that during the restructuring of the Soviet battleships they received command-range measuring posts KDP2-6 (factory index B-22) equipped with a DM-6 range finder with a base of 6 meters and a stereo tube ST-5 for target designation to the main caliber with a base of five meters.
                That is, all three battleships must have single main-caliber CDFs equipped with diverse optical devices.
                We look at the photo.

                This is the command and control center of the battleship Marat.
                1. +1
                  22 June 2019 23: 02

                  KDP battleship "Sevastopol".
                  1. +1
                    22 June 2019 23: 05

                    KDP battleship "October Revolution".
                    As can be seen from the pictures, all three battleships have the same KDP, equipped with two diverse optical devices.
                    1. +1
                      22 June 2019 23: 32
                      Now information about which optical devices can be installed on the KDP battleships.
                      In the ninth issue of the "Bulletin of the Odessa Museum of History and Local Lore" (http://www.history.odessa.ua/publication9/stat02.htm) I came across an article by Vasily Prokofiev, an employee of this museum, about the history of the 30th armored coastal battery of the 1st Separate artillery division of the Sevastopol naval base.
                      The article describes in great detail about the design and construction of the battery, starting in April 1906.
                      There is such a moment in it.
                      "The command post was located on a hill 650 meters north-east of the gun positions, connecting with the last communication route in rocky ground at a depth of 38 m. The ground part of the command post consisted of a reinforced concrete compartment measuring 15 by 16 m with walls and ceilings up to 3,5 m. Inside there was a radio room with a room for batteries and a cockpit for personnel. The entrance was closed by an armored door. The reinforced concrete roof housed a massive armored cabin "KB-16" with a wall thickness of 406 mm, a roof of 305 mm, with four viewing embrasures and an optical sight for the commander batteries of the "PKB" type, then replaced with "VBK-1". 50 meters from the command post there was a rotating armored tower "B-19" with a 10-meter stereoscopic rangefinder of the German company Zeiss and a stereotube "ST-5" with 5-meter base and 30 mm armor protection "
                      On the plan, which can be viewed on the website http://www.bellabs.ru/30-35/Schemes-30.html, it looks like this.
                      1. +1
                        22 June 2019 23: 40
                        And so this KDP looks like in German photography.

                        As can be seen in the photo, the KDP of the coastal battery No. 30 looks exactly the same as the KDP of the Soviet battleships.
                        That is, in the prewar years, the USSR practiced equipping command and rangefinding posts of ships and coastal batteries with a range finder to determine the distance to the target and a stereo tube for adjusting fire.
                        Thus, information that the three Soviet battleships in the reconstruction process received KDP2-6 (B-22 with a range finder DM-6 and a stereo tube ST-5) for issuing target designation to the main caliber can be considered very likely to be correct.
                      2. +1
                        23 June 2019 19: 45
                        Thank you very much! It turns out that the stereo tube had a large base.
                        Quote: Undecim
                        A 0-meter stereoscopic rangefinder of the German company "Zeiss" and a stereotube "ST-5" with a 5-meter base

                        I did not know this and it always seemed to me a weak point in my reasoning.
                      3. +1
                        23 June 2019 19: 48
                        In the last photo, the outward proportions are just fine - 10 meters Zeiss and 5 meters stereo tube.
  7. ABM
    +3
    22 June 2019 00: 43
    By the way, maybe someone does not know, in our fleet the length of the gun was measured with the breech, i.e. our 52nd caliber corresponded to the 50th in the British and Americans
  8. +1
    22 June 2019 02: 38
    the number of rangefinders providing the main caliber MSA has grown significantly, because all the towers of all three battleships received their own rangefinders

    Additionally, open rangefinders were installed there.
    1. +1
      22 June 2019 10: 17
      Of course! But we have not reached them yet, and they were intended for the PMH drinks
      1. 0
        22 June 2019 12: 51
        Got it, dear Andrey, thanks for the clarification.
        Thanks for another very interesting topic.
        By the way, it would be great if you wrote a similar article about the modernization of cruisers such as Svetlana. I myself am not in the subject, but I would read with pleasure, and other forum users may be interested.
        If you may, the question is off topic. At the speed of the battleships, all these upgrades affected? I am writing “modernization,” because I see in the photographs of the interwar period that the appearance of the ships changed gradually.
        1. +2
          22 June 2019 12: 56
          Quote: Comrade
          If I may, the question is off topic. At the speed of the battleships all these upgrades reflected?

          And how! :) We get to this
          Quote: Comrade
          I am writing “modernization”, since in the photos of the interwar period I see that the appearance of the ships changed gradually.

          A very original system of winter upgrades was adopted - that is, when navigation stopped, the battleship went to the factory, and he planned his work so that he could make it to the next campaign hi
          1. 0
            22 June 2019 15: 12
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            a very original winter modernization system is adopted

            as they said - the director took command of the fleet ... bully
        2. -1
          23 June 2019 21: 30
          I will not anticipate Andrei, but, for the intrigue, the young comrades who did not come into operation help Sevastopol.
  9. +3
    22 June 2019 02: 50
    305-mm / 52 guns of all battleships received lane trunks

    Do not forget about combat training :-)
    The middle barrel with a small-caliber gun mounted on it, used for stem firing, is noteworthy in the photo.
  10. +1
    22 June 2019 07: 43
    I would very much like to ask the author, if possible, in the future, when describing the flight range of the projectile, at least in parentheses give it in meters. With all due respect to the nautical show-offs and the nautical "language", it is really hard to convert your cables into normal range units.
    You see, not everyone who reads cables and miles is "native" and generally interesting. Moreover, when the metric and "flotation" units go side by side in the article, the eyes go up. Show compassion for your readers and since you indicate the mass of the projectile in kilograms, the caliber in millimeters, then the flight distance could be converted into meters. Or, then, use traditional units of measurement everywhere: pounds, inch lines, battles, poods. So that you can immediately stop reading the article right after the first paragraph. You see, everyone resigned themselves to nautical miles, since they are relatively easy to translate into kilometers, but these cables of yours ...
    1. +6
      22 June 2019 09: 58
      With this approach, you generally need to bypass the articles about the fleet by the tenth way. Cable and miles are the "normal" units in this context. In this case, the cable is equal to a tenth of a mile. If you have learned how to convert miles to kilometers, it remains to master the multiplication by ten, it is not so difficult anymore. Well, as a last resort, your school will soon pass it.
    2. +3
      22 June 2019 10: 47
      Quote: abc_alex
      With all due respect to the nautical show-offs and the nautical "language", it is really hard to convert your cables into normal range units.

      For the sea, they are exactly normal, almost all the literature describing naval battles, fleets, etc. It operates exactly cable (1 / 10 miles). Therefore, I see no sense in translating them into kilometers.
      Quote: abc_alex
      since you specify the mass of the projectile in kilograms, the caliber in millimeters and the distance of the flight could be converted to meters. Or even then use traditional units everywhere: pounds, inches lines, battles, poods.

      The fact is that the caliber of the same guns was measured differently. Somewhere in inches, somewhere in millimeters, but in Germany, for example, in centimeters. Therefore, there is no single recognized measurement system, and I am free to choose any of the available
      Quote: abc_alex
      To immediately be able to quit reading the article right after the first paragraph.

      Throw immediately :)))
      1. -3
        23 June 2019 21: 17
        Well, in Germany, artillery ranges were counted in hectometers.
      2. 0
        24 June 2019 15: 30
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The fact is that the caliber of the same guns was measured differently. Somewhere in inches, somewhere in millimeters, but in Germany, for example, in centimeters. Therefore, there is no single recognized measurement system, and I am free to choose any of the available


        Yes, but in Britain in general in pounds. And in order not to fool the readers of popular publications, all these delights are cut off, and the calibers are given in millimeters. Simple and affordable. We honor and praise you that you are using the normal system, familiar to everyone. I read such delights, where supporters of "sea show-off" side by side compare calibers in inches, centimeters and pounds ...

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        For the sea, they are exactly normal, almost all the literature describing naval battles, fleets, etc. It operates exactly cable (1 / 10 miles). Therefore, I see no sense in translating them into kilometers.


        And did you find it necessary to translate the velocity of the projectile in m / s? :) What did not translate into cable / s? Note, I’m on a tedious subject of the fact that you have not really given the distance of armor penetration which makes comparisons of the type somewhat virtual

        470,9 kg on 100 cable 207 mm vertical armor
        581,4 kg 90 cables could penetrate 330 mm armor plate.

        I understand that you cannot (and me too) bring the data to a single one, and you leave my imagination to imagine how much the 581 kg shell will penetrate after flying for more than 2 kilometers, which is 10% of the distances you give.

        And you see, your article is interesting to me not from the point of view of naval development, but from the point of view of the development of large-caliber artillery in the USSR in the 30s.


        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Throw immediately :)))


        So you lured with normal units, I thought for some time I came across a man who is alien to the stupid naval show off lasting from the time of rowing galleys. winked
    3. -3
      23 June 2019 21: 24
      Infantry! Maritime distance and range are considered in miles and cable (remember Yu. Antonova
      Mira Dal dividing for miles
      Life is dividing on a watch

      You are reading marine topics - if you please, study marine measures of length!
      1. 0
        24 June 2019 15: 33
        Quote: Potter
        You are reading marine topics - if you please, study marine measures of length!

        What for? I am not interested in ships, I am interested in guns. The development of artillery in the USSR in a certain period of time.
  11. 0
    22 June 2019 15: 19
    it is curious, well, that the author does not pretend - that he knows everything ... drinks
    it is a pity that he again uses strange numbers like: 1 mm or 191 kg - which are clearly beyond the accuracy of measuring instruments of that time ... request
    By the way, the numbers surprised: "They differed in length - 1, 191 and 1 mm, the explosive content - 530, 1 and 491 kg, respectively." it turns out that there was less explosive in a high-explosive projectile than in a semi-armor-piercing one? recourse
    1. +1
      22 June 2019 15: 43
      Quote: ser56
      which are clearly beyond the accuracy of the measuring instruments of the time ...

      So what? The shells were made according to the reference drawing, which provided for the weight of 470,9 kg, while there were probably some tolerances at which the projectile was still taken to the treasury.
      Quote: ser56
      Was the explosive projectile less explosive than in a semi-treadmill?

      Surprisingly
      1. 0
        22 June 2019 15: 58
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        which provided for a weight of 470,9 kg,

        Are you serious? bully I recall that the Russian pound is 409,5 g ... but what was the error in the lots or spools? smile
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        there were some tolerances

        in lines ... request
        I repeat once again - when translating various measures to others, you need to be very careful - the tolerances in different measures are different, with a frontal translation you get such funny numbers. how did you bring ... request
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Surprisingly

        then what is its meaning? a fuse near the armor piercing floor is also ahead ... is it easier to cast iron?
        1. +1
          22 June 2019 19: 16
          Quote: ser56
          Are you serious?

          Ага.
          Quote: ser56
          I remind you that the Russian pound 409,5 g ...

          Sergey, I have always admired your ability to get lost in three pines.
          You take one problem
          Quote: ser56
          It’s a pity that it uses strange numbers like: 1 191mm or 470,9 kg - which are clearly beyond the accuracy of the measuring instruments of that time

          Accuracy of measurements. To which I replied to you about the reference drawing and tolerances. And where have you suffered? In pounds and lines :)))))
          Although you do not need to have a higher education to understand - if we have a 304,8 mm pig steel, but the measuring instruments have a certain error, then this error will not change at all from whether we measure in kilograms, pounds, or roman talents.
          Quote: ser56
          then what is its meaning?

          Do not know
          1. 0
            24 June 2019 12: 37
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            You take one problem

            with just showing that you are translating the translated values ​​from one system to another ...
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            vooon ta 304,8 mm steel ingots

            it's 12 dm ingot ... hi
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            then it, this error, will not change at all from whether we measure in kilograms, pounds, or Roman talents.

            you are mistaken ... different tolerance fields in mm and dm .. hi For example, the CP-50 and BNC connectors can or cannot be inserted request
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And where did you go? In pounds and lines :)))))

            so they made feel translating in the forehead you get erroneous data - they could not measure the mass of the shell with an accuracy of 100 g ... bully
  12. +3
    23 June 2019 05: 37
    it follows from the drawings that the second "rangefinder" is not a rangefinder at all, but something shorter

    Dear Andrew,
    by "Paris Commune"the following information is available.
    Shooting control devices (PUS) of the main caliber artillery system of the plant "N. K. Geisler ”of the 1913 model was substantially revised: instead of one central firing machine (CAC) of the Pollen type (the English company Argo), two new ones were introduced into the circuit - such as the AKUR (the English company Vickers) and devices for synchronous data transfer of the central aiming TsN-29. Equipped two central artillery posts (DAC) - bow and stern - with CAC "AKUR" in each, installed on the bow and stern superstructures two KDP-6 (models B-22 with a six-meter range finder DM-6, stereo tube ST-5, center sight central aiming EP and two sighting aiming tips KDP VN).
    Fas

      Profile
  13. -1
    23 June 2019 21: 14
    Thanks for the article, Andrew! You have summarized a very large amount of information. As for the sources, it is true, yes, there are discrepancies. The modernization of battleships was ongoing, perhaps there is still a question of the time period.
  14. 0
    24 June 2019 16: 25
    Thank you, Andrew!
    Quite detailed and understandable.
    However, there is a question: against whom were 471 kg shells intended (especially in the 30s)?
    Against British battleships - invalid. Against Deutschland and company - not long-range and excessively powerful. Maybe it would be advisable to return to the shells mod 1907, providing range and flatness of the trajectory?
  15. +1
    25 June 2019 14: 24
    I ask you to:
    first, take the sources of information more seriously. Quote: "On the morning of December 17, 1941, the Nazi troops undertook active offensive actions along the entire defense line of Sevastopol with the aim of capturing the city. The most difficult situation developed by December 28: using the overwhelming superiority in forces, especially in tanks, the enemy, regardless of losses , violently rushed forward. " End of quote. L.I. Amerkhanov, S.I. Titushkin, "The main caliber of battleships". Read Manstein and serious historians, even Soviet ones, as part of Manstein's 11th Army, there was NOT ONE TANK, only a small number of assault guns.
    secondly, you either did not carefully read "The first battleships of the red fleet" by Mr. Vasiliev (although I would not classify this book as a serious source), or "pulled out" information that is beneficial to you. I can cite quotes from this book about artillery, power plant and general assessment of the project, which indirectly refute your thesis about "modern at the time of laying" battleships. Mr. Vasiliev does not directly reject this, although he himself provides information confirming the PRINCIPAL obsolescence of the project. Man is an emotional creature. In the absence of a real view of the situation, that under "Nikolashka the Bloody", that under "Vova the Fabulous", it is not the real demands of the day that win, but how the "tsar" sees them.
    Once again, I want to emphasize and thank the admirals, officers and sailors of the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Empire (in the film about Kolchak, this should have been given attention, and not a love line) for the fact that on the Black Sea (I repeat) Russia did what she wanted. Yes, neither the Goeben nor the Breslau sunk, but it was NOT NECESSARY. An echo (very important) was Turkey's refusal to enter the Second World War. They well remembered not only Kars and Ardahan, but also the domination of the "Empresses" in the Black Sea.
    Bow to the belt to the Soviet admirals, officers, sailors, people who worked in the rear, in besieged Leningrad, that from a hopelessly outdated project at the time of launch, they were able to make a REAL force. Only the very fact of air strikes against "Marat" indicates that it was a serious "splinter". The Germans, with their rich combat experience, began to master counter-battery combat only near St. Petersburg. And this is the huge role of the Baltic Fleet and its heavy ships. I have to repeat: the last (and first) who managed to make the Baltic Fleet win naval victories was Peter 1. Since then it has been the court fleet. In theory, during the Great Patriotic War, the Baltic Fleet could and should have done more. But in theory, in 1994 I should have made a "victorious march" to Grozny. It turned out differently in life.
  16. +2
    25 June 2019 15: 15
    About seaworthiness:
    "In order to somehow alleviate the situation, at about 23 pm on December 2, we had to change course, but when the ship was lagging to the wave, significant rolling began immediately, reaching up to 30 degrees, with an amplitude of 8 - 9 s, and the water sometimes reached the taps on the upper deck, falling through the ventilation shafts into the lower rooms. ”Such a swift pitching, which indicated that the ship had excessive stability, KI Samoilov (captain of the Paris Commune) explained by the fact that,“ Frightened by the overturning of battleships in the Tsushima battle, the builders overdid it in this regard, when building our battleships. "He saw the solution to this issue in the redistribution of cargo," since in the current state of affairs, the ship SHOULD BE RECOGNIZED AS LOW-RUNNING "(my emphasis). Quote from L.M. Sevastopol.
    I have to remind you that the battleships of the 2nd Pacific Squadron made a much longer route from Kronstadt to the Pacific Ocean around Africa, there were no complaints about seaworthiness. If you are sure that at the "time of the laying it was a modern project", give an example of at least one battleship of the laying down of 1909, which would be "afraid" of a storm in the Bay of Biscay (or in general at least any storm, we are not talking about the use of weapons, but on the survival of the ship).