Ballad of Lee / Grant tanks. "Lee / Grants" in battle (part four)

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So, here we are at the very end. stories tanks "Lee / Grant", examined them comprehensively, right down to the colors they were painted in. Now we just have to look at their combat use, and ... that's it! But first, based on the available data, let’s try to impartially evaluate them. And then again, if you do it impartially, it turns out that the American designers in the conditions of a tight time limit managed to create ... the most powerful medium tanks in the world! Not a single tank of the world in 1941 had such a powerful 76,2 mm gun as on the M3. Even after “trimming” the barrel, it was more powerful than the German “cigarette butt”, which stood on the T-IV. The Rheinmetall NbFz had two 75 and 37 mm guns, but they could not compete with the M3 guns, and how many were there? The Soviet T-28s also had a “short cannon”, and the T-34 cannon was approximately equal to the American one in its parameters, but had no stabilizer. Moreover, even the 37-mm cannon of the American tank was much more powerful than its German counterpart, so the M3 tank at the time of its appearance had unrivaled firepower.

Ballad of Lee / Grant tanks. "Lee / Grants" in battle (part four)

For some reason, the “tank mile” of the Aberdeen M3 testing ground is still painted like this ... In any case, there are no more recent photos.



For example, a French tank B-lbis with an 75-mm short gun that had a similar weapon set between the tracks in the hull to the right of the driver was already bad because its crew’s functions were not efficiently distributed (there was only one person in the tower) and the gun was short-barreled, and the driver himself directed her to the target. True, we had a HF-2 with a 152-mm cannon in a huge turret. But it was not a medium tank. It was a heavy tank, and you can’t compare it with the M3. How can you not compare the "Tiger" and T-34.


Well, what can you destroy here from such a pathetic 75-mm gun? B1bis, Samyur, France.

The armament of the Lee / Grant М3 tanks allowed them in those years to fight on an equal footing with the tanks of fascist Germany and its allies of all types. The 37-mm gun that was in the turret hit their armor at a distance of 500 yards (457 m), and with a thickness of 48 mm, while the 75-mm gun that stood in the sponsor punched 65 mm armor, that is, thicker than it was on the German tanks, and even had 30 degrees of inclination to the vertical. But which German tank in those years had such armor? It is worth noting that the 76-mm cannon of a Soviet XVUMX heavy tank, at a distance of 500 m, could penetrate 69 mm thick armor, and thus, comparing the capabilities of these machines in the fight against German tanks, it can be said that they were almost equal.


М3 "General Grant" in the museum in Bovington.

German tank guns, which had a caliber 37-50 mm, and even more short-barreled 75-mm gun SAU "StuG Ш", which we have the name "Artsturm", could not penetrate the frontal two-inch armor M3 with 500 m. And also its 37- mm gun had such an angle of elevation that it was even possible to shoot at aircraft, because of which the tank received "own air defense", and not at all "machine-gun quality." The large size of the tank also had a strong impact on the psyche of the enemy, which was especially evident in the Pacific theater and in Asia. True, they also made it noticeable and, accordingly, more affected. Thus, the main drawbacks of the M3 tank were ... three! The first is a great height. The second is a weak engine for such a mass. The third is the difficulty of maneuvering fire with a weapon of the main caliber, and ... everything!


Burning M3 in Libya. "In war, as in war."

The first military service began tanks M3 "defense channel": "General Grant CDL" and "Shop Tractor T 10". Were in the 79-th armored division of Great Britain, and together with the tanks "Matilda CDL" were supposed to reflect the German troops. The division was on the shores of the English Channel, all its tanks were in full combat readiness and were strictly classified. But the Germans did not land the landing. Therefore, the baptism of the battle M3 received in the sands of sultry Africa.


But this tank became a German trophy.

Here in January 1942, the German and Italian troops commanded by E. Rommel's desert foxes began to attack the British army 8 in Libya and were able to push it away from the city of Benghazi to the city of Ghazal. After that, the front stabilized here for four long months. Then the British struck back and almost crushed the enemy, but the pace of their attack was very low - only 1,5 km per ... day. As a result, only in mid-February, British troops were able to reach the Libyan-Tunisian border.


This tank German projectile landed right on the edge of the driver's viewing hatch, but ... armor did not penetrate!

Then, in November – December 1942, Anglo-American troops, almost without resistance, occupied North Africa, which was under the rule of the Vichy government.

Fierce fighting began in the spring, but only by 13 in May the Germans were defeated, and despite the fact that the Allies had a double superiority in the infantry, three times superior to them in artillery, and in tanks - four times! They also had a well-established and uninterrupted supply of their troops with everything they needed. The losses of the German-Italian troops were very large. So, they had all 120 tanks, while the Allies had 1100 vehicles in stock.


If you overclock a tank and build a springboard, then ... any tank can be turned into a “flying one”. The case of technology!

In these battles, the superiority of the M4 Sherman tanks to the M3 manifested itself radically. Therefore, the M3 tanks in the armies of Great Britain and the USA began to be removed from service and transferred to their allies - first of all, countries such as India, Australia and New Zealand, as well as French and Polish military units that were in the UK. Those vehicles that still remained in the military were converted into various auxiliary combat vehicles: command tanks, trawling tanks, repair and recovery vehicles, and in this form they were used until the very middle of the 50's.


Stuck in a ditch in Tunisia ...

During the landing operation in Normandy and in the south of France, the Anglo-American troops were armed with the newest tanks, but the M3 tanks were still used in the French and Polish divisions that fought as part of the allied forces. The strength of the French, who acted as part of the US 7 Army near Strasbourg during the German counteroffensive in the Ardennes and the Polish tank crews of the tank division in the Lower Meuse region, helped to contain the German tanks, and, in fact, saved the American 7 Army from defeat.


What distinguishes the "white man" from the black? Only one thing - the presence of a white ass!

In India, tank forces began to form from May 1 of the year 1941. Their basis was made by the American light tanks M3 "Stewart", which were supplied to the Indian army under lend-lease. From 1943, M3 also went into battle in the jungle of Burma. Here the massive use of tanks, as in the Libyan Desert, turned out to be impossible. Therefore, they acted in small groups, or even singly, solely in order to support the infantry, which often had to fight on mules, local buffaloes and even elephants.


When ammunition exploded in the M3, something like this happened to the tank ...

In the desert, the M3 performed quite well. True, the caterpillars had to close the dust panels, because otherwise it is very much "dusty". However, he was “dusty” with shields, but still less. German tanks from afar marveled at them from the first shot, in addition, the M3 developed a strong demoralizing fire on the infantry. But the German 88-mm anti-aircraft gun struck him with the very first shot, as well as the captured Soviet F-22 and USV guns with bore chambers, and the 251 BTR mounted on the chassis. He could not fight on equal terms with the newest German T-IV tanks with long-barreled 75-mm guns in 42 and 48 calibers.


Australian tank crews study the M3. Photo 1942 of the year.

But in Burma, the M3 tank showed its best side. Japanese tanks, armed with 37 mm cannons, could not hit their frontal armor from a distance of 500 meters, but they themselves were easy prey for the 75 mm guns of General Lee. The Japanese army did not have high-quality anti-tank guns. In the infantry, suicide squads were created to fight them, which, tied with bags of dynamite, with mines in their hands or bottles with combustible mixtures in their hands, threw themselves under these tanks, or hid in the thicket and tried to put mines under the tanks using bamboo poles. Tankers replied that they began to put infantry on their vehicles, and then the Japanese began to use against them Aviation. To this end, the Ki-44-II “Otsu” fighters were armed with two 40-mm Ha-301 guns instead of the standard 20-mm guns mounted in the wing. Two 12,7 mm machine guns on them were saved. They used these machines as attack aircraft, but the ammunition for the guns was scanty: only 10 shells per barrel. The 64th Air Force Regiment of the Imperial Army of Japan, commanded by Major Yasukho Kuroe, fought on these aircraft.

As for self-propelled 105-mm howitzers М7 "Priest" on the basis of М3, also very well showed themselves in the Libyan desert, being in the composition of the 8 of the British army. Then they entered into service with the British, American, and French armies, and they were used to support infantry in battles in Sicily, in Italy and in northern Europe. These M7 howitzers were in service in many armies of the world until the middle of the 50s.


“Under the banner of Lenin, forward to victory! For Stalin! ”- immediately visible - our tank.

The command and control vehicles of the M3 tanks began to be redone in 1943. At the same time, the armament and both units were dismantled - in the case and in the tower (the latter along with the upper tower), after which a sufficiently large free compartment could be equipped inside the machine, in which a powerful radio station and various other equipment were installed - that is, everything that was needed staff work. Externally, these cars were like the ARV-1, and had neither guns nor towers. However, in the US Army, the tower with the 37-mm gun was left on them. These "tanks" were used by the commanders of tank regiments and divisions, and on them there could also be operational groups of headquarters of tank divisions. The number of converted cars was small.


Obviously, this part included both M3 and M3 (according to the Soviet classification).

Repair and recovery vehicles ARV were in service with special units and operated in the second echelon of existing tank units. Their task was the repair and evacuation of tanks that had received some damage. But on the Western Front, tank battles similar to those in Russia had practically no place. By virtue of this, ARVs were applied rather limitedly.


Soviet M3 under Vyazma. 1942 year.

The Kangaroo armored personnel carrier was designed specifically for the transportation of infantry after the advancing tanks. These machines gave the English armored divisions operating in Europe. But their combat use was episodic. For a while these armored personnel carriers after the war were in the service of the Australian army.


“Modesty is like underwear,” say the French. “It is necessary to have, but you shouldn’t show it to everyone!” The padded tank М3 “Li” “Soviet heroes” in the area of ​​Bliznovsky-Kabala (north of Bolkhov, Orel region) July 1942. Most likely, this tank belonged to 192 TB (61 army). So the tankers from this tank arrived "according to the French recipe." But ... isn't it a real heroism, to fight in such a terrible war, and even on such a tank?

As for the USSR, the M3 tanks were met without enthusiasm. The fact is that in the middle of 1942, Germany had already begun to produce T-IIIJ and T-IIlL tanks with 50-mm armor and, moreover, armed with long-barreled 50-mm gun, piercing armor up to 500 mm at a distance of 75 m, and also began to produce the T-IVF tank and the “StuG III” assault gun, which also had a long-barreled 75-mm gun with high efficiency. So, the M3 armor has already ceased to be saved. Speed ​​was required, but also maneuverability and secrecy, and all these qualities of the M3 were absent. High, with poor maneuverability on Russian roads, with an insufficiently powerful engine (power 340 hp against 500 hp in T-34 of the same mass) and very sensitive to the quality of fuel and lubrication, it did not cause good feedback from tank crews. But these shortcomings would still be tolerable if it were not for its rubber-metal tracks. The tires on them often burned out, and the tracks simply fell apart, and the tank turned into a fixed target. And it is clear that tankers did not like this. Mitigate their opinion about the tank could neither comfortable conditions of its operation and maintenance, nor convenient side doors, which made it possible to easily get out of the damaged car, nor its strong armament. The report of the commander 134 of the tank regiment of Colonel Tikhonchuk from 14 of December 1942 of the year in which he assesses the М3 tanks is well-known: When firing at enemy tanks, due to the fact that the 75-mm gun is installed in the mask, and not in the turret, you have to deploy the tank, which is buried in the sand, which makes fire very difficult. ”


In the American army there were such mixed units, where along with the new M4, the M3 veterans also fought. True ... not for long.

Here, however, it should be noted that neither the British nor the Americans did not use the M3 as intensively as in the Red Army, and the heat of fighting both in Africa and on the Western Front was very far from everything that happened Eastern front.

However, the shortcomings of the M3 allies were fully realized and therefore very quickly removed them from production. From August 1942, the USA began to produce the M4 “Sherman” tank, and in England - the Mk VIII “Cromwell”. It was a “one-day tank”, and when that day passed, the well-developed US industry ... supplied the army with a new tank. Reserves for modernization МХNUMX were absent from the beginning!

Interestingly, exactly the same fate befell our domestic supertank KV. He was invulnerable in 1941, but he was no longer satisfied with the military in 1942, primarily because of his driving characteristics. To improve the maneuvering qualities of the KV tank, its designers decided to even go on ... reducing the thickness of armor on it, and this despite the fact that 75 mm armor had already penetrated German projectiles by this time !!!

Under the Lend-Lease of the USSR, tanks of such modifications as MZAZ and MZA5, which had diesel engines, received. In total, we were supplied with something near 300 machines: the northern route - by sea through Murmansk, and the southern route - through Iran.


Another Soviet M3.

It was not particularly customary to write about the actions of the American M3 tanks in the Red Army, so as not to praise the technique of our ideological adversary. But in the 5 volume of The History of the Second World War, published in 1975, there is a photo showing the tank attack of the Soviet MZAZ Grant and M3 Stewart tanks in Kalach-on-Don in the summer of 1942 (although the American historian Stephen Zaloga dates it with a 1943 year), which suggests that American tanks were in the 13 corps of the 1 tank army. The 134 tank regiment operated there jointly with the 4 Guards Cossack Corps in the area north-east of the city of Mozdok, and there fought with the German tank corps F on these tanks. Tanks M3 also participated in the battles near Kharkov, fought with the Germans in the Kalmyk steppes south of Stalingrad, as well as in the North Caucasus, and, possibly, in the Far East.

Interestingly, during the transportation of tanks by convoy PQ 37-mm guns tanks M3, which were openly on the decks, were used for firing at aircraft. Probably, this is the only case when tanks participated in battles at sea.
72 comments
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  1. +4
    23 August 2016 08: 24
    In terms of secrecy, he was an order of magnitude quieter than the T34.
    1. +9
      23 August 2016 12: 50
      In terms of secrecy, he was an order of magnitude quieter than the T34.

      Yes, and just like that! Even then, advanced American industry created these burials with elements of stealth technology!
    2. Alf
      +4
      23 August 2016 19: 33
      In terms of secrecy, he was an order of magnitude quieter than the T34.

      Not audible, but visible ...
    3. Alf
      0
      23 August 2016 19: 33
      In terms of secrecy, he was an order of magnitude quieter than the T34.

      Not audible, but visible ...
    4. +2
      25 August 2016 17: 45
      "In terms of secrecy, it was much quieter than T34" ///

      This is because the working gear T-34-76 was - 2nd gear.
      The box did not switch in motion, and there was a recommendation not to touch it at all,
      so as not to get stuck in battle. And the engine of the T-34 was powerful. So he roared like a bull all the time.

      The box was fixed by the end of 43.
      In the 44th, the T-34-85 was already moving with the usual noise for tanks.
    5. +2
      23 November 2016 11: 31
      So it’s not diesel, so it roared less. But what is the use of it, if its concept is archaic even by the beginning of the Second World War and even earlier, it was already rejected in world tank building. I mean multi-tower. And what about the bolted component of the frontal part of the body? And the exorbitant height? He is the coffin.
      There is a video in nete, as the Panther shoots Sherman in the forehead, with the arrival and full .... for the crew, and this miracle is also a bucket-bucket.
  2. +10
    23 August 2016 09: 10
    Good comment:
    ".. Kenneth Today, 08:24
    In terms of secrecy, it was an order of magnitude quieter than the T34 ... "
    ...
    Just remember the joke about Elusive John.
    Given that there were only 300 of these Grants (Karl, three hundred. Only 300! Spartans) ... then the issue of quietness for them was clearly in the first place.
    It’s even amazing how these M3s did not reach SECRETLY in Berlin in 1942.
    And what? Silent tank, on rubber tracks, on excellent German roads.
    Yes, given that the Germans already had trophies from them.
    That would be a circus ... in 1942.
    1. +3
      23 August 2016 11: 34
      Loza also wrote about this, that quiet Americans and Britons allowed them to go behind the lines or deliver an unexpected blow.
      Xnumx tvc couldn't
  3. +9
    23 August 2016 09: 52
    . M3 had significant drawbacks, especially during winter operation:
    1) a high silhouette made him an easy target;
    2) the high center of mass made it very unstable when moving over rough terrain. in the memoirs of veterans there are episodes with a rollover from hitting a curb.
    3) the aircraft engine had insufficient power, made a terrible sound at launch and unmasked the tank, but could not work on the XX for a long time, servicing the star engine was also not easy
    4) the main weapon in the sponson - in fact it was a lot of self-propelled guns but not a tank;
    5) rubber tracks showed themselves poorly on ice.
    1. 0
      23 August 2016 11: 43

      . M3 had significant drawbacks, especially during winter operation:
      1) a tall silhouette made him an easy target

      This is an insignificant point for VET
      for guns, with 500 m falling into the sights of observation, shooting gun trunks extra cm heights are not important
      1. 0
        25 August 2016 11: 57
        But in an ambush, try to disguise it, and having dug in its upper part is an excellent target, unlike a small T-34 turret or KV-1 turret.
  4. +4
    23 August 2016 10: 22
    "Modesty like underwear, ...

    Is this one knocked out? It seems like he’s just stuck, and the logs are talking about ...
    1. +3
      23 August 2016 12: 28
      Manstein in his "Lost Victories" clearly did not mention these tanks, when he wrote that our forecasters argued that the depth of the snow cover impedes the use of tanks, but the Russians were apparently not familiar with the statements of our forecasters, because their tanks were on wide tracks appeared unexpectedly in different places and caused a lot of damage, while our tanks could not pass there.
  5. +3
    23 August 2016 10: 51
    Coffin for seven.
    1. +2
      23 August 2016 11: 13
      Six! There were six people in the carriage: three at the top and three at the bottom.
      1. +3
        23 August 2016 12: 37
        Six! There were six people in the carriage: three at the top and three at the bottom.

        Optionally, in a modification with a commander’s turret, the commander had to simultaneously control a 37 mm gun and machine gun in the turret itself. Because of this, it was not possible to use these weapons effectively, so they put another crew member there and got seven.
        By the way, because of this troubles, the British generally abandoned it.
      2. 0
        26 August 2016 21: 19
        And seven too.
  6. +1
    23 August 2016 11: 58
    “Modesty is like underwear,” the French say. “You need to have it, but don’t show everyone!” The knocked-out M3 “Lee” tank “Soviet heroes”

    What are you talking about?
    The fact that the infantry abandoned the tanks, and when they got stuck, did our glorious pilots work for them, despite the rockets? And then she killed her 68 tanks, and as a result, 7! Tanks from 47 remained in the brigade.
  7. +2
    23 August 2016 12: 42
    . We have two tanks in the museum, they really look like sau, and not like a tank, in the classical sense
    1. 0
      23 August 2016 12: 45
      . Here is the second
  8. +1
    23 August 2016 13: 55
    It is worth noting that the 76-mm cannon of the Soviet KV heavy tank at a distance of 500 m could penetrate 69 mm thick armor, and thus, comparing the capabilities of these vehicles in the fight against German tanks, we can say that they were almost equal.
    In practice, they were not equal. Because the power of the gun, its "penetration" is not the only (albeit, of course, important) condition for victory over an enemy tank. There is also maneuverability (which also consists of a whole "bunch" of characteristics), silhouette, armor protection, the effectiveness of the control system, the availability and quality of communication, etc., etc. And this is only the technical side of the issue. And there is also tactics, and there are some nuances. And your gun is more powerful means everything - the winner. The IS-2 was a cut above the Panzerkampfwagen VI in performance characteristics, so what? Which of them is still "grandma said for two."
    1. +5
      23 August 2016 14: 07
      IS-2 was TTX a cut above Panzerkampfwagen VI

      It was inferior in terms of rate of fire - separate loading after all.
      But before the emergence of ISs, the Germans were very fond of exhibiting their "Tigers" on high-rise buildings and shooting Soviet tanks from safe, for themselves, distances.
      However, 25-kilogram armor-piercing blanks quickly weaned them from this.
    2. 0
      23 August 2016 15: 20
      We are talking about the possibilities of artillery - this is obvious. Do not look for devils in the censer!
      1. Alf
        +7
        23 August 2016 19: 46
        We are talking about the possibilities of artillery - this is obvious. Do not look for devils in the censer!

        And at what speed could Lee fire at a target that appeared on the left in the direction of travel?
        It’s not even that Lee turned to get stuck during the turn, but also if the T-34 or KV needed to deploy the turret on the left to fire at the target, preserving the motion vector and, thereby, exposing the frontal armor to the enemy, Lee had to turn to the left, substituting onboard German armor, located generally without not without rational tilt angles, but generally vertically located.
        1. +3
          23 August 2016 19: 51
          Do not spoil the mood of the "captain of the obvious" laughing
          1. +1
            24 August 2016 13: 02
            For the third time I am writing for ease of understanding, "we are talking about the capabilities of artillery." Not on the design of the tower and armor, not on the aggregate performance characteristics, not on the tactics of use. This has been written about elsewhere. Read carefully and do not rush to write and criticize right away. The tank was discontinued and out of service. This suggests that all these shortcomings were obvious not only to you. So what is it about?
            1. Alf
              +2
              24 August 2016 19: 19
              For the third time I am writing for ease of understanding, "we are talking about the capabilities of artillery." Not on the design of the tower and armor, not on the aggregate performance characteristics, not on the tactics of use. This has been written about elsewhere. Read carefully and do not rush to write and criticize right away. The tank was discontinued and out of service. This suggests that all these shortcomings were obvious not only to you. So what is it about?

              The point is that you claimed that the M-3 and T-34 are equal in terms of guns.
              You, apparently, thought that a comparison of tank guns should look like this. 2 guns were removed from the tanks and mounted on the same carriages. Then they shot and compared the results. And when they told you that the guns on the tanks are compared according to a complex of testimonies and this refuted your words, then you already started pouring water.
              When they point out to me my wrongness and prove it with reason, I admit that I am wrong. You have no such trait.
              By the way, what was the horizontal pointing angle of the M-3 tank to the right?
            2. +1
              25 August 2016 12: 01
              The shelling sector is also a characteristic of the gun, even for towed ones, so the forum users correctly indicated.
            3. +1
              26 August 2016 21: 26
              For the third time I am writing for ease of understanding, "we are talking about the capabilities of artillery."
              So the third time we write: the M-3 gun had 15% less muzzle energy than the T-34. The American cannon is also D. And a tank with a cannon almost on the belly cannot be disguised. The tank is also a large D. Black cable should not be washed to white. The business is not grateful and useful. Loot will have to be returned. Sad
            4. +1
              26 August 2016 21: 33
              For the third time you have been told that the muzzle energy of the M-3 cannon is 15% less than the muzzle energy of the T-34. The cannon of the M-3 tank is a large D. And located on the "belly", it did not allow the tank to be disguised. For amers, this crap is national pride, but why should we pull an owl on the globe?
  9. +2
    23 August 2016 14: 06
    Interestingly, during the transportation of tanks by convoy PQ 37-mm guns tanks M3, which were openly on the decks, were used for firing at aircraft. Probably, this is the only case when tanks participated in battles at sea.

    But shouldn't they have been mothballed? When transported by sea, they were canned - they were greased with a thick layer of grease, the barrel was closed with plugs and it was not so easy to re-preserve it, and then could the ammunition be transported separately from the tank?
    1. +1
      23 August 2016 15: 22
      I didn't swim there myself. What I read, I wrote about that. Read from Stephen Pledges. This is a very famous BTT historian. Then Hunnicat had another "master", the author of a series of very serious books about the American BTT. Could, probably, with a threat, re-preserve in advance. The first convoy passed - "Eh, if only ... we would ...!" "Let's do it in advance?" "Come on!" - how they swooped down - bang-bang! After all, a lot of people witnessed this, so this is hardly an invention.
      1. +1
        24 August 2016 05: 33
        I agree, this is not fiction. That's bullshit. The historian should not repeat it. What danger are you talking about? In the Arctic, re-preserve the tank? Lubrication is a stone. Ammunition - not available (in vain you can’t hear a friend). The hydraulic system of the tank is not filled, and partly dismantled. Where did the crew of the tank come from?
        Serious authors on the glorification of the Saxons.
        1. +2
          24 August 2016 12: 55
          It may very well be. We lied about Fiuma. Why don't they fantasize about the M3 on decks? But both authors are very authoritative. Better just not. But ... there were also our sailors. Captains wrote reports. You just need to search the Navy’s archive for information on this and find out for sure. Thanks for telling me the topic. True, these searches will cost a pretty penny, but we'll see ...
          1. +1
            24 August 2016 19: 17
            When I voiced the topic to my brother, he recalled that Pikul has about shooting tanks from the deck (I respect him very much). But in his works he could be based on your primary sources. I consider this a fantasy.
  10. +5
    23 August 2016 14: 23
    The article is definitely a plus - the author you have collected a lot of interesting details on this tank.
    The only thing I would like to comment on your proposal from the 2nd part is to lay the engine horizontally and reduce the height of the tank.
    This can only be done theoretically, because in this case, in a kinematic scheme, one more reducer (as you suggested - with bevel gears) would be required.
    Since the engine is aviation and has about 4500-5500 rpm (unlike diesel 1100-1500 rpm), such a gearbox would experience enormous heat loads and would require a separate cooling system, while the gear life (even if they make helical, which requires a special machine park and high precision manufacturing) their resource would not exceed several dozen hours. The gearbox itself, to transfer such loads, would have to be done with a very thick-walled case and would weigh half a ton and its dimensions, would negate all the advantage in height. And so we get the complexity of the design and unjustified rise in price - on the other side of the scales - 30 cm in height.
    So far from fools designed the M3 Lee and the decision to install the engine vertically - (or rather, at an angle) - is very thought out.
    1. 0
      23 August 2016 15: 39
      And I never said that they were fools. This was purely hypothetical reasoning, "mind games" for engineers.
      1. 0
        27 December 2016 21: 58
        In a good technical article as a whole, there are a lot of exclamation marks, both in text and under photo documents.
        Or technique, or - Pikul !!!
    2. +1
      23 November 2016 12: 47
      You said everything correctly about complication, gearbox, weighting, etc. however, the use of an aircraft star on a tank in itself is nonsense, although forced and used not only by the Yankees in those years. Well, look at your picture with a tank cut.
      Even to a person far from engineering, she must cut her eyes. The layout is terrible, irrational, huge unfilled volumes, this ragulny line of the shaft through the entire fighting compartment. In general, absurdity and nothing more. At that time, the American tank school was just a young modeler club. If it can be called a school at all, the armored vehicles were created by civilian designers in civilian corporations, the combat experience was zero.
      The only advantage of the American armored vehicles of that time is the quality of production. Here, that is, that is, there is no war on their territory, they worked quietly, measuredly, on good equipment using well-established technologies. You can refine yourself - put a leather armchair, think about ergonomics. And the fact that the horseradish turn the gun to the left, the tenth thing.
  11. +1
    23 August 2016 14: 25
    It was inferior in terms of rate of fire - separate loading after all.
    Yes, and even speed on the road, on a solid km / h. But for everything else - put out the light.
    However, 25-kilogram armor-piercing blanks quickly weaned them from this.
    There were none. There was an HE-471 high-explosive fragmentation cannon grenade weighing 25 kg (explosive mass — TNT or ammotol — 3 kg). From the impact of this shell, the Tigers simply burned like torches. What does it mean when hit at an angle of 60 degrees. the effect was even better. From these things, Panzerwaffers were simply written in boiling water, usually for themselves, for the last time in their life. Because when hit - there was no chance, from the word at all.
    1. +3
      23 August 2016 14: 38
      There were none.

      BR-471 - armor-piercing pointed-head chamber projectile (BS).
      BR-471B - armor-piercing blunt-headed chamber projectile (BS).
      O-471 - high-explosive fragmentation shell (OFS).
      All 25 kg, because ballistics.
    2. +2
      23 August 2016 15: 01
      Quote: otto meer
      There were none. There was an HE-471 high-explosive cannon grenade weighing 25 kg (the explosive mass was 3 kg TNT or Ammotol).

      In 1944 there were definitely, and regular ones - they were still shooting at the "panther".
      The shelling on complete samples of captured tanks from the serial IS-122 was carried out at the UZTM artillery range in January 1944 and showed that the frontal armor of the Panther tank regular 122-mm shell it easily penetrates from a distance of 600-700 m, while an improved armor-piercing tracer with a bursting chamber (made according to drawing No. 2-2868 A) could hit it from 1200-1400 m, why the NKB began producing armor-piercing shells on January 15, 1944 caliber 122 mm of this particular type.

      However, it would be strange if the 122-mm A-19 did not have BBS - because the use of body guns to strengthen the anti-tank system was prescribed before the war.
  12. +1
    23 August 2016 14: 47
    It is worth noting that the 76-mm gun of the Soviet KV heavy tank at a distance of 500 m could penetrate 69 mm thick armor

    Which of the guns? wink
    Because L-11 and F-32 were on pre-war HFs, which were not doing very well with armor penetration: according to the results of tests at the ANIOP, it turned out that, for example, they pierced 50 mm armor at 30 degrees with only 300 m. were 50 mm of domestic armor (K = 2500).
  13. +1
    23 August 2016 16: 05
    In 1944 there were definitely, and regular ones - they were still shooting at the "panther"

    armor piercing blanks
    BR-471 - armor-piercing pointed-head chamber projectile (BS).
    BR-471B - armor-piercing blunt-headed chamber projectile (BS).
    O-471 - high-explosive fragmentation shell (OFS).
    All 25 kg, because ballistics.

    As far as I understand, you are bringing under the fact that BR-471B is an "armor-piercing blank"? This is not the case, because he has an armor-piercing part, a fragmentation part, an explosive charge, and so on. Pardon the pun for an "armor-piercing fragmentation" projectile, but not a blank. Any more suggestions? I repeat, there were no “BB blanks” in the nomenclature for the D-25T.
    PS: I'll tell you - 122 mm, 25 kg. there were exactly "blanks", but not for the IS-2, and in general not for tanks. But there were.
    1. +1
      23 August 2016 16: 27
      Mea culpa - "armor-piercing blank“I didn’t notice. You’re right - the D-25 didn’t have solid armor-piercing caliber.
      EMNIP, in the caliber of 122 mm solid were practical shells - PBR-472.
      1. +1
        23 August 2016 20: 14
        EMNIP, in the caliber 122 mm solid were practical shells - PBR-472
        PBR-472 is a practical tracer, with ballistic BR-472. Dig further. Hint - pointer -12,2 cm K.390 / 2 (r). Here there are clean discs, cast, cast-iron, from Krupp t.s. good
        1. +1
          24 August 2016 09: 45
          Yes, this is not a hint, but a complete answer. smile
          About fans to use equipment with indices (t), (f), (r), etc. I somehow forgot.
    2. 0
      23 August 2016 16: 28
      he has an armor-piercing part, a fragmentation part, an explosive charge, etc.

      He has a little explosive in the pope, but in fact it is an armor-piercing blank and it should break apart inside, and not outside.
      If you are so interested in the word "blank", then there were practical shells for this particular tank gun, but they were not armor-piercing.
      1. +1
        23 August 2016 19: 56
        There, not only in the priest, there, in the front, it is also interesting in the girdle zone.
  14. 0
    23 August 2016 17: 34
    Well, I don’t know, I judge by the reviews of my grandfathers. Hemorrhoids tank in the service area. Although the Mooreans were both, they came across. They did not respect him at all, but they said thanks.
  15. +1
    23 August 2016 20: 15
    I read it, interesting. Thank you to the author. If you shoot down the gusli, you will get a good target. And the upper turret will not help. This will kill the tank and the other. appear in such a box. Author to you +
  16. 0
    24 August 2016 05: 42
    Quote: Kenneth
    In terms of secrecy, he was an order of magnitude quieter than the T34.

    A peculiar idea of ​​secrecy.
    1. +1
      24 August 2016 10: 03
      Well, you Lozu esteem chtol.
      1. 0
        24 August 2016 19: 20
        Do not make yourself an idol. This is true.
        And in the case: Head work necessary! (joke .... years)
  17. 0
    24 August 2016 19: 30
    Fishlessness and cancer! In that difficult time of the outbreak of war, all equipment was good. Thanks for that too hi
    1. +1
      26 August 2016 21: 44
      And who is arguing? Thanks for the writing, in a difficult moment we were glad to see them. THANKS. Enough? Just do not pull the owl on the globe. M-3 is a wonderful tank, let the Americans around it write with delight and tenderness. But compared to the T-34, this is not a tank, this is a urinal. If a person does not see this, he is blind, if he does not want to see, he received loot.
  18. 0
    25 August 2016 11: 38
    Quote: Stas57

    . M3 had significant drawbacks, especially during winter operation:
    1) a tall silhouette made him an easy target

    This is an insignificant point for VET
    for guns, with 500 m falling into the sights of observation, shooting gun trunks extra cm heights are not important

    1) M3 is not a VET but a medium tank
    2) for VET, good camouflage is important for ambush actions, for M3 this is not very: high, noisy
  19. 0
    26 August 2016 21: 36
    Alf,
    Pointing angle to the right? Why so modest. Left hover angle? That is fun.
  20. 0
    28 August 2016 22: 10
    In the first two years of the war, due to the lack of tanks, we needed any help and did not have to choose. I don’t remember which book I read the memoirs of veterans that our tankers did not like these tanks, and tried to transfer to the T-34 by any means. In terms of projectile power, I can only say that American gunpowder was better than domestic, which accordingly affected the speed of the projectile and armor penetration.
  21. 0
    29 August 2016 22: 37
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    Not a single tank of the world in 1941 had such a powerful 76,2 mm gun as on the M3.

    I'm afraid to make a mistake, but in my opinion in 1941. M3 tanks were equipped with 75 mm guns.
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    Even after the “truncation” of the barrel, it was more powerful than the German “cigarette butt”

    Exactly, we are talking about 75 mm American tank guns. The one that is shorter is the M2. And more authentic, M3.
    In fact, "cigarette butts" and long-barrels are an indirect sign of the old and new concept of tank troops. "Infantry tanks" (old pre-war concept) were armed with "cigarette butts". "Medium tanks" (new concept) were armed with long barrels. The tasks of the "cigarette butts" did not include anti-tank warfare at all. It could be conducted, but that was not the main thing.
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    and the T-34 gun in its parameters was approximately equal to the American

    To clarify, in terms of armor penetration, the American M2 (short) was approximately equal to the Soviet F-34 (long). Accordingly, the 75 mm M3 (long) was superior to the Soviet three-inch models. But the power of the OFS at the Soviet gun was greater, 621g. BB versus 565g. BB. In this case, "fill" them, of course, could be different explosives. But during wars, usually all sides used surrogates. Otherwise, you could be left without pants.
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    KV-2 with a 152-mm cannon in a huge tower. But it was not a medium tank. It was a heavy tank

    KV-2 is a turret self-propelled gun. Artsamokhod, but with a tower. In the USSR, the reckless BTT was not recognized before the Second World War. Then the situation changed.
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    When ammunition exploded in the M3, something like this happened to the tank ...

    Interestingly, the American 76-mm shells, and mainly Shermans with such guns were supplied to the USSR, were equipped with fuses that practically eliminated the detonation of ammunition.
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    as well as captured Soviet guns F-22 and USV with a bored cam

    These were already PaK36 (r) and PaK39 (r).
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    He could not fight on equal terms with the latest German T-IV tanks with long-barreled 75-mm guns in 42 and 48 calibers.

    So with them, even Sherman was not easy.
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    if not for its rubber-metal tracks. The rubber on them often burned out, and the caterpillars simply fell apart, and the tank turned into a motionless target.

    There is such a word - "routine maintenance". This is when parts are changed according to the schedule, and not due to wear. A purely Soviet "disadvantage".
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    Since August 1942, the M4 Sherman tank began to be produced in the USA.

    In general, as if from January 1942.
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    He was invulnerable in 1941.

    Loud. And not exactly.
  22. 0
    29 August 2016 23: 10
    Quote: Mavrikiy
    The T-34 has a projectile speed of 650 m / s, the M-3 (with the M-3 cannon) 610 m / s. And it turns out "the T-34 cannon in its parameters was approximately equal to the American one"

    Are you going to compare DE or armor penetration?
    Quote: Mavrikiy
    650 m / s for the T-34 and 610 m / s for the M-3 (with the M-3 gun) are spray. To and fro. 40 m / s who cares who needs it?

    Apparently still DE. Then for the F-34 take 662 m / s. It accelerated the BR-350A to this speed. There was a crappy shell, speaking between us.
    Quote: Mavrikiy
    There is "muzzle energy". This is the main indicator of the perfection of the weapon.

    Who told you that?
    And then, do we consider armor penetration or just a gun? The shell does not interest you at all? Those. Is he sideways to armor penetration?
    Quote: Mavrikiy
    And the T-34 is 15% higher than the M-3. And then what to prove?

    Anything. I give a tip, the cross-sectional area of ​​the F-34 projectile is 3% larger. Throw more tips?
    Quote: Aspeed
    The F-34 projectile has a FOUR QUARTER more energy than the M2 gun, which stood on the M3.

    The 85-mm S-53 gun shell has a huge advantage over the 75-mm KwK40 projectile in the DE (1,5 times). However, its armor penetration is most by 3-4%. Miracles, right?
    But even more surprising is that if the crew didn’t get the new 85-mm O-365K shells, then he could use the old O-365 shells. And in this case, the German 75-mm OFS was 680g. BB, and in the 85-mm O-365 was 660g. BB
    So you can’t directly compare anything.
  23. 0
    18 October 2016 08: 11
    its 37-mm gun had such an elevation angle that it could even be fired at by aircraft, which is why the tank received "its own air defense"

    What nonsense!
    The author set himself the goal of extolling a very ugly - but American! wink - tank, despite the sense of proportion?

    To conduct effective fire on airplanes, a large elevation angle is necessary, but not sufficient. It is also necessary to have a high aiming speed, an adequate sight and a high rate of fire. The M3 had nothing of the kind.

    Or does the author have information about real cases of using the M3 "Grant" turret guns for air defense missions? And about successful cases of such use? It would be very interesting to see such a miracle laughing

    The glorification of the merits of his cannon is also touching: having listed a bunch of antediluvian short-barrels for a deliberately unequal comparison, the author only at the very end "REMINDS" laughing about the T-34 and KV guns, which have quite similar ballistics.

    At the same time, the author tries to mix the issue of the presence / absence of a stabilizer in a power comparison.
    What stabilizer can affect the ballistics? lol
    And is it so that the installation of the gun in the wheelhouse sharply limits the angles of its guidance, as well as the firing sector, and this can not be fixed by any stabilizer?
    Nothing so that the stabilizers of the WWII were ineffective, and still not allowed to fire on the move?

    The author also "forgets" that the German 75-mm cannons had cumulative shells in the BC, which were very effective against even much more powerful armor than that of the "Grants".
  24. 0
    18 October 2016 08: 16
    Quote: Kenneth
    In terms of secrecy, he was an order of magnitude quieter than the T34

    With his basketball height, yes, where is more secretive laughing
  25. 0
    18 October 2016 08: 28
    Quote: Mavrikiy
    For amers, this crap is national pride

    So after all, even they do not feel pride in such a miracle. Rather, shame.
  26. 0
    18 October 2016 08: 34
    Quote: Mavrikiy
    Pikul has about shooting tanks from the deck (I respect him very much).

    Oh state speed! Pikul as an authority !!! fool

    He is only good as a fiction writer, and for a narrow teenage audience — to arouse interest in military history, to instill a charge of patriotism, and so on.
    But if his creations are read to an adult and an understanding person, then everything he tries to write about turns out to be a rare nonsense.

    And if Pikul wrote about "tank air defense" from the convoy's decks, then I am surprised only by the naivety of adults, it seems, people who are seriously quoting piquant here.
  27. 0
    18 October 2016 08: 39
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Which of the guns? wink

    ZIS-5, obviously.

    Quote: Alexey RA
    Because L-11 and F-32 were on pre-war HF

    Yes. But there were not so many of them.
  28. 0
    18 October 2016 08: 50
    Quote: Stilet
    we needed any help and did not have to choose

    The classic has already said: "At that time the Russians were fighting with the Germans somewhere on the Volga and were ready to consider any van as a tank, if only it had caterpillars."
    And there too:
    "The M3 tanks were again driven into Russia - the Russians were planning a big scuffle for the summer on some arc with an unpronounceable name, and they were ready to take any self-propelled shed, as long as it had a gun."