Russian annals: from appearance to content

259

View of the Ipatiev Monastery in Kostroma. Photo: A. Savin (Wikimedia Commons)

Learn my son: science cuts
We have the experiences of a fast-moving life -
Someday, and soon, maybe
All areas that you are now
Portrayed so cunningly on paper,
All will be yours
Learn, my son, both easier and clearer
Sovereign labor you will comprehend.
A.S. Pushkin. Boris Godunov


You can become a communist only when you enrich your memory with knowledge of all the wealth that humanity has developed.
“Tasks of Youth Unions” (text of a speech by V. I. Lenin at the III Congress of the Komsomol on October 2, 1920)




Historical science against pseudoscience. This is the third material devoted to ancient Russian chronicles. It will talk about how some of them look, since huge numbers of people will never get to their storage places, as well as about the contents. Indeed, some readers of VO believe that this all lies somewhere, no one translates old texts into the new Russian language, does not study authenticity, doesn’t analyze linguistic types, and only Professor Petukhov alone makes all discoveries in this area and does. Therefore, we will begin, perhaps, with the Manuscripts Department of the Russian National Library, where, together with other valuable manuscripts of our ancestors, the chronicle, called Lavrentievskaya, is also stored. And she was named after the person who rewrote it in 1377, and at the end, on the very last page, left such an interesting autograph: “Az (I) is a thin, unworthy and many-sinful servant of God Laurentius of mine (monk)” .

Russian annals: from appearance to content
Page of the Laurentian Chronicle, turnover 81 sheets. Contains part of the teachings of Vladimir Monomakh with a description of his military campaigns, 1377. Source: website of the Russian National Library

To begin with, this manuscript is written on a “charter”, or, as this material was also called, “veal,” that is, parchment, or specially made calfskin. They read it a lot, since it is clear that its sheets not only dilapidated, but also numerous traces of drops of wax from candles are visible on the pages. That is, in its six hundredth century, this book has seen a lot.

The Ipatiev Chronicle is kept in the Manuscript Department of the Library of the Academy of Sciences in St. Petersburg. She came here in the XVIII century from the Ipatiev Monastery, which is located near Kostroma. It belongs to the XIV century and looks very solid: the cover is wooden, covered with dark leather. It is believed that it was written in four (five!) Different handwritings, that is, several people wrote it. The text goes in two columns, written in black ink, but the capital letters are written in cinnabar. The second sheet of the manuscript is all written in cinnabar and is therefore especially beautiful. The capital letters on it, on the contrary, are made in black ink. Obviously, the scribes who worked on him were proud of their work. “The Russian chronicler repairing with God. Good Father, ”one of the scribes wrote before the text.

As for the oldest list of Russian annals, it is also made on parchment in the XIV century. This is the Synodal list of the Novgorod First Annals, which is stored in the State Historical Museum, that is, the Historical Museum in Moscow. It was just that before he was in the Moscow Synodal Library, and now she was named after her name.

A very interesting monument of the past is, of course, the famous illustrated Radzivilovskaya, or Konigsberg, chronicle, because there are so many color illustrations in it. It was named so because for some time it was in the possession of the Radziwills, and they call it Konigsberg because Peter the Great found it in Koenigsberg. It is located in the Library of the Academy of Sciences in St. Petersburg. For some reason, it is she who causes suspicions, so to speak, of her “insolvency”, because, they say, the bad Radziwills just faked her. But it was written at the end of the XNUMXth century, and not just anywhere, but ... in Smolensk. It was written in half-mouth, that is, the handwriting is somewhat faster and simpler than a much more solemn and thorough charter, although this font is also very beautiful.

But the main thing is the miniatures of the Radzivilov annals, of which 617! Just think: 617 drawings are made in color, and all colors are bright, very cheerful and well illustrate what is written in the text. and troops marching under fluttering banners, and pictures of battles, sieges - in short, war in all its then forms. We see the princes seated on the “tables” that served them as a throne, and foreign ambassadors with letters in their hands. Bridges, fortress towers, and walls, "logs" - dungeons, "vezhs" - these were the names of nomad wagons in Russia. According to the drawings of the Radzivilov Chronicle, we can clearly imagine all this. The same can be said about weapon and armor, there are not many, but just a lot. And all the drawings are combined with the text. And the conclusion: such a number of figures, coupled with the text, is fake physically impossible. And most importantly, such a fake would not make sense, since it would be easily established by cross-comparison with other texts, and errors in illustrations - by archeological data. Wherever you throw, everywhere a wedge! Or do you fake one to one, they say, they found another list previously unknown and want to sell it for a lot of money (there is still at least some hope that they will not get it, although it’s very weak), or we’ll make changes there, and here we are exposes the first specialist! That is, in any case, the money spent will not pay off. Only 617 miniatures ... well ... 500000 p. for each + text ... expensive comes out pleasure, right? And most importantly, why?


Radzivilov Chronicle. A miniature depicting the battle between the regiments of Mstislav Romanovich and Vasilko Volodarevich Minsky; the capture of Mstislav Vasilkom, 1197 Description of the event in a miniature in the text of the chronicle: “in the summer of 6705. ... The same winter, the ambassador of Davyd from Smolensk, his son Mstislav, the matchmaker of the Grand Duke Vsevolod, to help my son-in-law to Vitbesk, and I defeated Vasilko from Chernigov , and Mstislav, the matchmaker of the prince, took and led him to Chernigov "

These are the most ancient lists of Russian annals. By the way, they are called “lists” because they were “written off” from much more ancient manuscripts that did not reach us.

The texts of any chronicle were written according to the weather, so the entries in them usually begin like this: “In the summer, such-and-such (that is, a year) speed this-or-such ... or don't speed anything, or don't speed nothing,” and then goes a description of what happened. The chronicle was “from the creation of the world”, that is, to translate that date into a modern chronology, you need to subtract either 5508 or 5507 from the chronicle date. Some messages were very short: “In the summer of 6741 (1230) the church was signed (painted) the Holy Mother of God in Suzdal and paved with diverse marble "," In the summer of 6398 (1390) there was a pestilence in Pskov, as it was (like) never; where they dug more than one, put five and ten in a row ”,“ In the summer of 6726 (1218) silence is quick ”. When there were many events, the chronicler used the following expression: "that same summer" or "that same summer."

A text that refers to one year is called an article. Articles in the text are in a row, they are highlighted only by a red line. The headings were given only to particularly significant texts dedicated, for example, to Alexander Nevsky, the Pskov prince Dovmont, the Battle of Kulikovo and a number of other important events.

But it is wrong to think that the chronicles were kept exactly that way, that is, records were made year after year. In fact, chronicles are the most complicated literary works devoted to Russian history. The fact is that their authors-chroniclers were simultaneously monks, that is, they served the Lord, and publicists, and historians. Yes, they kept weather records of what the witnesses were, inserted instructive additions to the records of their predecessors, which they learned from the same Bible, the lives of saints and other sources. And so they got a “vault”: a complex “mix” of biblical motifs, edifications, direct instructions of a bishop or prince standing above the chronicler, and his personal attitude. Only highly qualified specialists can analyze the chronicles, otherwise you can easily go after that to search for the grave of Svyatopolk the Cursed on the Polish-Czech border.


Radzivilovsky Chronicle. The Polovtsians withdrew part of the Russian population into captivity, 1093. Description of the event in miniature in the text of the annals: “... and the people of division and vedzha, in the honor of their compassion and relative. Many kind of Christian ... "

As an example, consider the message of the Ipatiev Chronicle about how Prince Izyaslav Mstislavich fought with Yuri Dolgoruky for reigning in Kiev in 1151. Three princes appear in it: Izyaslav, Yuri and Andrei Bogolyubsky. And each had his own chronicler, and the chronicler of Izyaslav Mstislavich openly admires the mind and its military cunning; Yuri the chronicler described in detail how Yuri launched his boat bypassing through Dolobskoe Lake; Well, the chronicler Andrei Bogolyubsky extols the valor of his prince.

And then after 1151 they all died and the annals devoted to them fell into the hands of the chronicler of the next Kiev prince, for whom they no longer represented personal interest, because they had become a distant past. And he combined all three of these stories in his body. And the message came out full and bright. And cross-referencing is easy to check where it came from.

How do researchers manage to extract older texts from later annals? The fact is that the attitude towards literacy at that time was very respectful. The written text had a certain sacred meaning, not without reason there was a saying: written with a pen - you can’t cut it with an ax. That is, scribes of ancient books with great respect for the works of their predecessors, since for them it was a “document”, the truth before the Lord God. Therefore, they did not redo the texts they received for rewriting the chronicles, but merely selected events of interest to them. That is why the news of the XI-XIV centuries remained almost unchanged in the later lists. That allows them to compare and highlight.

In addition, the chroniclers indicated the sources of information: “When I came to Ladoga, Ladoga told me ...”, “Behold, I heard from a seer.” Such postscripts are found constantly in texts. It was also customary to indicate: "A se from another chronicler" or "A se from another, old." For example, in the Pskov annals, which tells about the campaign of the Slavs against the Greeks, the chronicler wrote in the margin: "This is written in the miracles of Stefan of Sourozh." Some chroniclers participated in princely councils, were at the veche, and even fought with the enemies “beside the stapes” of their prince, that is, went on campaigns with him, were eyewitnesses, and direct participants in the sieges of cities, and most often, even having left the world, occupied a high position in society. Moreover, the princes themselves, their princesses, prince warriors, boyars, bishops, and abbots participated in the annals. Although among them were simple monks and humble priests of the most ordinary parish churches.


Radzivilov Chronicle. The construction of the city of Belgorod by order of Vladimir Svyatoslavich, 990. Description of the event in a miniature in the text of the chronicle: “In the summer of 6498. Lay Belgorod and chop the stench from other cities, and many people will introduce a stench. Be bo loving this city "

And do not think that the annals were written “objectively”. On the contrary, whoever “saw”, he wrote like that, remembering, however, that God for a lie, let alone a written one, “a document, by the way,” will be doubly punished. The conflict of interest in the annals is again very clearly seen. Chronicles also told about the merits of the same princes, but they also accused them of violating rights and laws. That is, not everything and then (as now!) Was bought for money and by force of coercion!

PS Recommended article for additional reading: Schukina T.V., Mikhailova A.N., Sevostyanova L.A. Russian annals: features and problems of study // Young Scientist. 2016. No2. S. 940-943.

To be continued ...
259 comments
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  1. +3
    April 27 2020 06: 59
    Hello. I don’t really trust all these manuscripts-censuses. First of all, they describe what the next ruler or church needs. write an essay on three annals, destroy the originals. Thank you, I look forward to continuing.
    1. +2
      April 27 2020 07: 20
      Maybe that's why it is interesting? Understand someone’s interests. If there is anything to compare.
    2. +10
      April 27 2020 07: 54
      Alexander! Continuation will be required.
    3. -6
      April 27 2020 09: 14
      To begin with, this manuscript is written on a “charter”, or, as this material was also called, “veal,” that is, parchment, or specially made calfskin


      Well, then, not a "charter", but on the map in Russian.

      And this is called the "description of the chronicles"? As it is very little, it should be said about the Laurentian Chronicle that this document itself appeared in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, and before that no one had heard anything about it.
      In content, it’s quite sparingly, almost nothing. The chronicle describes events from 898g-1283g.

      The Ipatiev Chronicle is kept in the Manuscript Department of the Library of the Academy of Sciences in St. Petersburg. She got here in the XVIII century from the Ipatiev Monastery, which is located near Kostroma


      The Ipatiev Chronicle was found in the library of the Academy of Sciences by that very court historiographer who wrote this story to us -Karamzin and it was already in the 19th century.
      It is divided into several lists, the main Khlebnikovsky and Pogodinsky.
      The list was compiled in the Kiev Pechersk Monastery under the direct supervision of Metropolitan Pyotr Mohyla, whose autographic notes from 1637 have been preserved on the margins of the manuscript.

      https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Пётр_Могила
      and who was this Peter Grave? It was the Metropolitan of Kiev, a pupil of the Polish Chancellor
      Stanislav Zholkevsky and Hetman Khodkevich, who organized the Polish invasion of Russia on Moscow. This is what the doctor of historical sciences Pyzhikov says. This type, this document, the Ipatiev Chronicle was created, as if by Goebels and Himler, and now it is the main historical for our academic science document and guide to action.



      Well, according to the Rdzivilovsky chronicle, it is best to read the study of Fomenko and Nosovsky, who clearly and unequivocally found fake sheets that concerned the actual arrival of the Varangians in Russia and modern chronology.

      These are our "main historical documents" or were written to us by outright enemies or simply forgeries.
      1. +11
        April 27 2020 10: 22
        Well, then, not a "charter", but on the map in Russian.
        Another demonstration of militant ignorance.
        1. -7
          April 27 2020 10: 53
          Quote: Undecim
          Well, then, not a "charter", but on the map in Russian.
          Another demonstration of militant ignorance.


          another slavish imitation of a Westernized historical interpretation.
          note written
          -charter, but the charter is read, how to understand this? But no way.
          It is clear that this charter / charter is a derivative of the Russian map.
          1. -8
            April 27 2020 11: 18
            You can give examples of such a correct translation into Russian.
            For example, the Caspian Sea in the 18th century was called the Khvalynsk Sea, it is in Russian, so they wrote, and on old foreign maps they wrote not with _x_, but with _y_ i.e. The Galensky Sea or the Galsky Sea, this is how linguists hid the truth. They will first translate from Russian into non-Russian, then vice versa, the word is distorted, and with it the meaning, they write history.
            For this, all these languages ​​/ peoples were created.
          2. +14
            April 27 2020 11: 42
            Bar, you are ignorant. This is a page from the book The Complete Church Slavonic Dictionary, which was compiled by the clergyman of the Russian Orthodox Church, archpriest, theologian Grigory Mikhailovich Dyachenko. This is the result of his many years of work. And the fact that you, without even thinking, are trying to spoil a person unknown to you, speaks not only of ignorance, but also of stupidity.
            1. -9
              April 27 2020 12: 16
              Quote: Undecim
              Bar, you are ignorant. This is a page from the book The Complete Church Slavonic Dictionary, which was compiled by the clergyman of the Russian Orthodox Church, archpriest, theologian Grigory Mikhailovich Dyachenko. This is the result of his many years of work. And the fact that you, without even thinking, are trying to spoil a person unknown to you, speaks not only of ignorance, but also of stupidity.

              you are eleven just a slave lamp. Like a parrot settled the same thing, and how a parrot lives in his cage, and even if you open the door, then such a parrot like you will not leave it, because the strength of the habit i.e. cowardice and unhealthy reflexes. Well, and sit further in your soy cage.
              And with your "science" I have nothing in common, your science is hostile, both to the Russian people and to common sense, eleven.
              1. +12
                April 27 2020 12: 32
                Bar, and when did the Russian people authorize you to speak on his behalf? Or is imposture coupled with megalomania also inherent in you, along with ignorance? And how can you confirm that you have common sense?
                The fact that you are twisting here, it does not attract the thoughts of the entire Russian people. Like you on the role of the tribune of the people. You need to be more modest.
                1. -7
                  April 27 2020 12: 50
                  and I am a Russian man, I was born in the USSR, I lived to old age and see what the Russian people are in trouble with. And above all, it’s a FALSE HISTORY of which you are an adherent.
                  Your propaganda methods are constantly lying and dodging, splitting the whole into atoms and then not seeing much to examine the facts under a microscope looking for inconsistencies - this is called "historical science", and a downright lie, when what is written in old texts is read in its own way - this is called linguistics ...
                  Your particular specialty is a goose i.e. parrot - repeat what is written by others without deviating from their own thoughts eleven.
                  1. +9
                    April 27 2020 13: 08
                    not deviating to your own thoughts
                    The presence of one’s own thoughts is not proof of the presence of logical content in them, but deviant behavior in the vast majority of cases does not at all indicate hyper-abilities, which you clearly demonstrate.
                    I see the troubles of the Russian people. Well, right, Vladimir Ilyich! True grammar is lame, but what pathos! Directly to the armored car - and to Finlyadsky station!
                    1. -3
                      April 27 2020 13: 25
                      Quote: Undecim
                      Having your own thoughts is not proof of their logical content,

                      funny, so you let it slip, the fact that for other unidirectional there is a special case in your case is your political credo.
                      In general, the presence of one’s own thoughts is an opportunity to show one’s logical thinking. Can a person logically express not his thoughts? Yes, maybe, but then it's still not a man, but a parrot.

                      I graduated from the Soviet Higher Technical School, where we were taught that the main and first quality of intelligence / engineer is to CREATE i.e. create your own.
                      Well, many years of communication with your brother, with the humanities allow us to say that, for example, historians and linguists are taught, first of all, DO NOT deviate from what has already been created by other people, follow the course, keep pace and correspond to the spirit, and this is what is called by your "literacy" but it's certainly not called that.
                      1. +7
                        April 27 2020 13: 41
                        Well, for many years of communication with your brother, with the humanities
                        Bar, at least sometimes you try not to generate a stream of thoughts, namely to think, otherwise this stream will suck you.
                        I finished, like you, the Soviet Higher Technical School, where I was taught the same thing as you.
                        Therefore, I well understand the difference between creating and "creating your own." Creation should not be for the sake of creation, what you are doing successfully, while you also give yourself an assessment - I have erected a monument to myself! Self-esteem is a necessary thing, but it should not turn into self-praise.
                        It would be interesting to know what you created as an engineer. Share, if not a secret.
                      2. -4
                        April 27 2020 14: 02
                        Quote: Undecim
                        Well, for many years of communication with your brother, with the humanities
                        Bar, at least sometimes you try not to generate a stream of thoughts, namely to think, otherwise this stream will suck you.
                        I finished, like you, the Soviet Higher Technical School, where I was taught the same thing as you.
                        Therefore, I well understand the difference between creating and "creating your own." Creation should not be for the sake of creation, what you are doing successfully, while you also give yourself an assessment - I have erected a monument to myself! Self-esteem is a necessary thing, but it should not turn into self-praise.
                        It would be interesting to know what you created as an engineer. Share, if not a secret.


                        and I never deal with unreasonable gag, all my observations and remarks always have something in common with the works of other people, historians and experts, and always give links.

                        As for the work on the profile, then in our world of Putin's capitalism, when 10 thousand were closed. factories and hundreds of institutes and design bureaus to realize themselves now is not easy. Now there is no demand for their own specialists.
                        -It was aircraft manufacturing, now it’s not aircraft manufacturing
                        -was your car industry, now a foreign car industry.
                        - there was a machine tool industry, now there is no machine tool industry
                        -was own electronics, now there is no electronics
                        but now there are 200 billionaire friends of Putin, and before there were no billionaires all the money flowed into the national economy, and not over the hill.
                      3. +3
                        April 27 2020 14: 17
                        all my observations and remarks always have something in common with the works of other people of historians and experts and always give links.
                        Excuse me, but some of the individuals you refer to are "historians and specialists" only in your imagination, and some, who are really historians, would be very surprised if they could familiarize themselves with the conclusions that you have drawn from their thoughts.
                        And why do you avoid answering my question about achievements as an engineer, referring to Putin's capitalism? If you studied in the USSR, then how could Putin's capitalism prevent you from building up?
                      4. -3
                        April 27 2020 14: 38
                        Quote: Undecim
                        all my observations and remarks always have something in common with the works of other people of historians and experts and always give links.
                        Excuse me, but some of the individuals you refer to are "historians and specialists" only in your imagination, and some, who are really historians, would be very surprised if they could familiarize themselves with the conclusions that you have drawn from their thoughts.
                        And why do you avoid answering my question about achievements as an engineer, referring to Putin's capitalism? If you studied in the USSR, then how could Putin's capitalism prevent you from building up?

                        specifically, what is wrong there?
                      5. +6
                        April 27 2020 14: 43
                        Specifically, you said that you were taught to build in the Soviet Technical University.
                        I asked what successes you have achieved in this field. And you answer me-about Putin's capitalism. I am at a loss - how could this kind of capitalism reach out to the USSR and prevent your realization as a creator? Make it clear if possible.
                      6. -3
                        April 27 2020 14: 50
                        Quote: Undecim
                        Specifically, you said that you were taught to build in the Soviet Technical University.
                        I asked what successes you have achieved in this field. And you answer me-about Putin's capitalism. I am at a loss - how could this kind of capitalism reach out to the USSR and prevent your realization as a creator? Make it clear if possible.

                        you show an unhealthy interest off-topic, I won’t answer you, please speak on the subject.
                      7. +4
                        April 27 2020 15: 27
                        Well, not for long the music played ...
                        As it came to creation, so are you in the bushes. This is suspicious, suggestive of the fact that with creativity you have not worked out.
                        Well, okay, you don’t want to, it’s your business.
                        And on the matter with you everything is clear, what can I say there.
                      8. 0
                        April 27 2020 16: 34
                        Quote: Undecim
                        Well, not for long the music played ...
                        As it came to creation, so are you in the bushes. This is suspicious, suggestive of the fact that with creativity you have not worked out.
                        Well, okay, you don’t want to, it’s your business.
                        And on the matter with you everything is clear, what can I say there.

                        in the bushes then you, on the topic do not want to talk, just to chat ...
                      9. +2
                        April 27 2020 16: 39
                        On the subject of history as applied to you, I have long ago unequivocally expressed myself - you are a militant ignoramus. I see no reason to change my point of view. Judging by the fact that you too quickly slipped off the question of creation, there you also have nothing to be particularly proud of. So all the best to you, see you soon.
                      10. -5
                        April 27 2020 19: 04
                        Well, you are a parrot-talker.
                      11. -4
                        April 27 2020 19: 15
                        there was such a fairy tale as the Kingdom of crooked mirrors was for you, everyone lied there, right, like here, and the king was a Parrot, that is, Yagupop 11. laughing
                      12. -2
                        April 27 2020 16: 02
                        Oh, and where, interestingly, new planes, rocket engines, cars, etc., which are delivered including abroad, come from? Or you can source, which lists all those 10000 plants and design bureaus, personally closed by Putin. And why do the data from hh.ru contradict your words about the uselessness of qualified specialists in the field of production?
                      13. 0
                        April 27 2020 16: 35
                        Quote: Heathen
                        from where, interestingly take new planes, rocket engines, cars, etc., which are delivered including for rubles

                        what new planes / cars? at least say something.
                      14. The comment was deleted.
                      15. 0
                        19 May 2020 13: 36
                        Quote: Heathen
                        By car, too, throw a link or find yourself?

                        Throw, though I’ll scream a little.
                      16. +2
                        April 27 2020 16: 39
                        Quote: Heathen
                        All those 10000 factories and design bureaus that Putin personally closed were listed.


                        from large factories.

                        Here is the list:



                        Moskvich Plant (AZLK) (genus 1930 - killed by 2002)

                        Factory "Red Proletariat" (genus 1857 - killed 2010)

                        Uralvagonzavod (born 1936 - killed in 2018)

                        Izhevsk Motorcycle Plant (genus 1928 - killed by 2009)

                        Irbit Motorcycle Plant (Ural) (genus 1941 - present in a coma after being wounded)

                        Pavlovsk Tool Plant (genus 1820 - killed by 2011)

                        Factory "Record" (genus 1957 - killed 1996)

                        Lipetsk Tractor Plant (genus 1943 - killed by 2009)

                        Altai Tractor Plant (Rubtsovsk) (genus 1942 - killed by 2010)

                        Shipyard Avangard (Petrozavodsk) (genus 1939 - killed by 2010)

                        Shipyard OJSC "HC Dalzavod" (Vladivostok) (genus 1895 - killed 2009)

                        Radio plant PO Vega (Berdsk, Novosibirsk region) (genus 1946 - killed 1999)

                        Saratov Aviation Plant (genus 1931– killed by 2010)

                        Omsk Transport Engineering Plant (genus 1896 - killed by 2009)

                        Chelyabinsk watch factory "Lightning" (genus 1947 - killed 2009)

                        Uglich watch factory "The Seagull" (genus 1938 - killed by 2009)

                        Penza watch factory "Dawn" (genus 1935 - killed 1999)

                        The second Moscow watch factory “Glory” (genus 1924 - killed by 2006)

                        Chistopol watch factory “Vostok” (genus 1941– killed by 2010)

                        Moscow Machine-Tool Plant named after Sergo Ordzhonikidze (genus 1932 - killed by 2007)

                        Stankomash Plant (Chelyabinsk) (genus 1935 - killed by 2009)

                        Ryazan Machine Tool Plant (genus 1949 - killed by 2008)

                        Kronstadt Marine Plant (genus 1858 - killed by 2005)

                        Kuzbasselement Plant (genus 1942 - killed by 2008)

                        Irkutsk Radio Plant (genus 1945 - killed by 2007)

                        Precision casting plant “Centrolit” (Lipetsk) (genus 1963 - killed by 2009)

                        Khor Biochem plant (Khabarovsk Territory) (genus 1982 - killed by 1997)

                        Tomsk Instrument Plant (genus 1961 - killed by 2007)

                        Sivinit Plant (Krasnoyarsk) (genus 1970 - killed by 2004)

                        Krasnoyarsk TV Factory (genus 1952 - killed by 2003)

                        Dynamo Plant (Moscow) (genus 1897 - killed by 2009)

                        Oryol plant managing computers named. K.N. Rudneva (genus 1968 - killed 2006)

                        Orenburg Hardware Plant (genus 1943 - killed by 2009)

                        Khabarovsk plant "EVGO" (genus 2000 - killed 2009)

                        Ulyanovsk Radio Tube Plant (genus 1959 - killed by 2003)

                        Plant them. Kozitsky (St. Petersburg) (genus 1853 - present in a coma after being wounded)

                        Sibelektrostal Plant (Krasnoyarsk) (genus 1952 - killed by 2008)

                        Orenburg silk fabric factory “Orenburg Textile” (genus 1972 - killed by 2004)

                        Barysh factory them. Gladysheva (Ulyanovsk Region) (genus 1825 - killed by 2005)

                        Flax Association them. I.D. Zvorykina (Kostroma) (genus 1939 - killed by 2011)

                        Kamyshinsky cotton mill them. Kosygina (Volgograd Region) (genus 1955 - present in a coma after being wounded)

                        Trekhgornaya manufactory (Moscow) (genus 1799 - present in a coma after being wounded)

                        Far Eastern Radio Plant (Komsomolsk-on-Amur) (genus 1993 - killed by 2009)

                        Bicycle plant (Yoshkar-Ola) (genus 1950 - killed 2006)

                        Bicycle plant (Nizhny Novgorod) (genus 1940 - killed 2007)

                        Perm Bicycle Plant (genus 1939 - killed by 2006)

                        Proletarian Plant (St. Petersburg) (genus 1826 - present in a coma after being wounded)

                        Baltic Plant (genus 1856 - killed by 2011)

                        Sibtyazhmash Plant (Krasnoyarsk) (genus 1941 - killed by 2011)

                        Khimprom Plant (Volgograd) (genus 1931 - killed by 2010)

                        Irkutsk driveshaft plant (genus 1974 - killed by 2004)

                        Tchaikovsky precision engineering plant (Perm Territory) (genus 1978 - killed by 1998)

                        Izhmash Plant (Izhevsk) (genus 1807 - killed by 2012)

                        The Ural Heavy Engineering Plant UZTM Uralmash is finishing off ...

                        .


                        https://topwar.ru/30555-spisok-unichtozhennyh-naibolee-krupnyh-i-vysokotehnologichnyh-predpriyatiy.html
                      17. Fat
                        -3
                        April 27 2020 19: 26
                        Interestingly, have you checked at least one case? As for Izhevsk, ALL your data, to put it mildly, is "crap"
                      18. +1
                        April 27 2020 20: 36
                        Quote: Thick
                        Interestingly, have you checked at least one case? As for Izhevsk, ALL your data, to put it mildly, is "crap"


                        what you say is messy.
                      19. Fat
                        -2
                        April 27 2020 20: 57
                        Quote: Bar1
                        Quote: Thick
                        Interestingly, have you checked at least one case? As for Izhevsk, ALL your data, to put it mildly, is "crap"


                        what you say is messy.

                        Clear. You live in Izhevsk and lost your job due to the retirement of the company from the list of living ....)))
                        Tell me how many enterprises producing prespapier died would be wonderful.)))
                      20. 0
                        19 May 2020 13: 37
                        Why so evade the answer? I asked a specific question. Who was killed specifically? Personally by Putin? Or is it the "effective owners" who squeezed these factories out in the 90s?
                    2. The comment was deleted.
                    3. The comment was deleted.
                    4. +6
                      April 27 2020 17: 00
                      Good afternoon, Vic Nikolaitch. smile
                      Since I, like our friend Seryoga, am also swimming in this topic, I will simply allow myself to visually comment on your statement regarding "comrade" Bar. drinks
                    5. +3
                      April 27 2020 18: 01
                      Directly to the armored car - and to Finlyadsky station!
                      For what?!?!?!? crying
              2. +6
                April 27 2020 12: 44
                Quote: Bar1
                like the Russian people

                Such "Russian people" just need to put one thing on a brick and beat the other. To stop the spread of the virus of idiocy.
                1. -5
                  April 27 2020 12: 51
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Such "Russian people" just need to put one thing on a brick and beat the other. To stop the spread of the virus of idiocy.


                  is this a response from the Jewish people?
                  1. +5
                    April 27 2020 13: 10
                    is this a response from the Jewish people?

                    Shaw, is Shpakovsky a Jew? belay oh wei, oh wei, who did this ... So our people are everywhere! wink
                  2. +6
                    April 27 2020 13: 39
                    Does my surname with "yi" oppress you? Do not! I change surnames like gloves, but my attitude to all peoples is the same: that is a Jew, that is Russian, that an American - just not (further the word is everyday, national, but forbidden in VO).
                    1. +5
                      April 27 2020 14: 17
                      Does my surname with "yi" oppress you?

                      You just need to compile a dictionary of epithets that Bar1 (Timur) rewards others:
                      as usual it’s a lie, from trilobite ...

                      1. Michael is a Russophobe-trilobite. You can simply trilobite.
                      is this a response from the Jewish people?

                      2. V.O. Shpakovsky - the defendant on behalf of the Jewish people.
                      you are eleven just a slave lamp. How a parrot settled the same thing

                      3. Victor Nikolaevich - just a slave to the lamp, his speech is like a parrot! (Homer).
                      We write further? laughing is there still "not ironed" by the Bar?drinks come on! wink
                      1. +7
                        April 27 2020 15: 38
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        IN. Shpakovsky - the defendant on behalf of the Jewish people.

                        You noticed it well. And also Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian ... oh-Mother of God!
                      2. +6
                        April 27 2020 15: 51
                        And also Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian ... oh-Mother of God!

                        Oh, the bosom womb! belay How many genetic flaws do you have, Vyacheslav Olegovich! as soon as you manage? Only Michael has more - he is generally Russophobe with help. Yes
                        He still doesn’t know about my flaws, my Chuvash relatives probably give me every right to consider myself Great Mughal Tartaram. fellow
                      3. +3
                        April 27 2020 18: 15
                        "Mongolia will dream for a long time" laughing
                      4. +1
                        April 27 2020 18: 18
                        "Mongolia will dream for a long time"

                        Cuba is far, Cuba is far ..
                        Cuba is nearby, Cuba is nearby!
                        drinks
                      5. +2
                        April 27 2020 18: 26
                        "And I still have Cuban sand in my shoes,
                        They don't know how sweet snow can be "(C)
                      6. +6
                        April 27 2020 17: 54
                        Yeah, you still forgot two notorious racists: the hunter Anton and the vile Cat. laughing
                      7. +2
                        April 27 2020 18: 00
                        Yeah, you still forgot two notorious racists: the hunter Anton and the vile Cat.

                        oh .. yes, I forgot something. The entertainers are still the same! If earlier there was the concept of "hussar with a motor", now we can say - "entertainer with an ATV". good drinks
                      8. +5
                        April 27 2020 18: 19
                        We have a quiet village life here, a pastoral, so to speak, without any undertakings. smile
                      9. +4
                        April 27 2020 18: 54
                        And they are such jesters ... They are the first to joke, and the first to suffer.
                        "(Tsar) -What would you like to erect on the block?
                        (Chancellor) - Of course, Agent Netanyahu!
                        (Tsar) - And what, the people?
                        (Chancellor) - To the people a minimum wage and a sandwich! "
                      10. +5
                        April 27 2020 18: 29
                        Is that something I'm a hunter? Have I ever expressed a consumer attitude towards the opposite sex ????
                      11. +7
                        April 27 2020 19: 13
                        No, I didn’t express it, but I probably thought about it. laughing
                      12. +3
                        April 27 2020 19: 25
                        No, uncle Kostya. But this is a personal tragedy.
                      13. +4
                        April 27 2020 19: 30
                        So what's the problem... ?
                      14. +3
                        April 27 2020 19: 34
                        Uncle Kostya, do you want me to pour out my soul to the whole forum? Fire!
                      15. +3
                        April 27 2020 19: 53
                        No, of course, Anton. Just wanted to cheer you up a bit. smile drinks
                      16. +2
                        April 27 2020 20: 10
                        Consider cheering. drinks
                      17. +4
                        April 27 2020 20: 38
                        That's good. smile drinks
                      18. +3
                        April 27 2020 19: 41
                        Trilobites to the Russian people have been dirty since the Cambrian period. In advance, tentacles wrote the annals. Well i.e. not in advance, all of your Paleozoic fake. Nosovsky and Fomenko will not be allowed to lie.
                    2. +3
                      April 27 2020 15: 46
                      Quote: kalibr
                      Does my surname with "yi" oppress you? Do not! I change surnames like gloves, but my attitude to all peoples is the same: that is a Jew, that is Russian, that an American - just not (further the word is everyday, national, but forbidden in VO).

                      Bar is also a more Jewish surname, in Hebrew means wild, in army - son (Bar Kokhba - the leader of the anti-Roman uprising of the 2nd century AD - Son of the Star). Bar 1 - make aliyah, return to the Land of Ancestors, the Land of Zion and Jerusalem - we will together with Shpakovsky make plans for the next vile blow from around the corner to the fraternal patriots of the land of the Russian people of Syria, sitting in brazenly captured from the Palestinians Tel Aviv region fellow
                      1. +6
                        April 27 2020 15: 56
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        we will be together with Shpakovsky

                        It’s better I’m alone ... I'm afraid of stuttering (a common word, but VO is forbidden!)
                      2. +3
                        April 27 2020 16: 08
                        Yes, even hint - what is the word?
                        Those who rainbow ride on pink unicorns or are distinguished by outstanding intellectual abilities?
                      3. +5
                        April 27 2020 16: 35
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        distinguished by outstanding intellectual abilities?

                        Of course it is. The simpler the better!
                      4. +3
                        April 27 2020 17: 02
                        Those who rainbow ride on pink unicorns

                        a cerebral, and even a little psychedelic picture looms ... wassat (Jefferson Airplane, "Somebody to love" plays off-screen) wink
                        or distinguished by outstanding intellectual abilities

                        spring, you know .. vitamin deficiency .. there are all kinds of exacerbations ... request
                      5. +3
                        April 27 2020 17: 04
                        "Somebody to love"
                        Rather, I will survive Gloria Geiner.
                      6. +3
                        April 27 2020 17: 09
                        Rather, I will survive Gloria Geiner.

                        Subtle, Albert, subtle! laughing good
                        Bar is also a more Jewish surname

                        With that name, I only remember Bar Rafaeli. wink (Do not show the Sea Cat! Otherwise, the topic will be developed in such a way that we will not let it go with all the kagal in front of our wife!) drinks
                      7. +2
                        April 27 2020 17: 17
                        The most famous in the modern world is Bar Aba (literally - the son of his father, allegorically - the son of his father), better known as Barabbas - according to Greek transcription. he, according to the New Testament, was pardoned instead of Christ.
                      8. +2
                        April 27 2020 17: 25
                        better known as Barabbas - by Greek transcription. he, according to the New Testament, was pardoned instead of Christ.

                        Yes, I remember him. Yes
                      9. +1
                        April 27 2020 20: 36
                        I never imagined that the "legend of Captain Mikhailov" has biblical roots laughing
                      10. +5
                        April 27 2020 19: 40
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        The most famous in the modern world - Bar Aba

                        I don’t know, I haven’t been ... I know the bar "Volna", the bar "Citrus", the bar "At Mamed's", there is also a bar on the second floor of our shopping center, it doesn’t even have a name. Bar "Aba" I don't know. laughing
                      11. +3
                        April 27 2020 19: 45
                        And there is also Bar Mitzvah fellow drinks
                      12. +2
                        April 27 2020 20: 40
                        There is also a "kilmanda flatbread bar". Our, iconic Tatar institution!
                      13. +7
                        April 27 2020 17: 29
                        Late, the bird flew out. laughing

                        Do not worry about your spouse, she knows that there are no better women in the world than her, at least for me. smile
                      14. +4
                        April 27 2020 17: 32
                        Late, the bird flew out.

                        ... said Constantine, and blew smoke from both trunks ... Yes
                        Do not worry about your spouse, she knows that there are no better women in the world than her, at least for me.

                        ... added Constantine, and licked his lips like the Emperor Bokassa on "sugar pork"! wink We know you! drinks
                        no, with such a "Bar" I would talk, and I would even almost do not care, no matter what nonsense she said! Even about haplogroups and super-ethnic groups request But, alas .. girls like her meet only with excellent students in military and political! I would be kicked off with the wording "rogue". laughing
                      15. +5
                        April 27 2020 17: 49
                        .. girls like her meet only with excellent students in military and political! I would be kicked off with the wording "rogue".

                        Not everything is lost, Minhertz, improve your skills in combat work and personal communication with the ladies, and everything will be as it should. smile soldier
                      16. +3
                        April 27 2020 18: 07
                        No, the girl is democratic - met with Leonardo DiCaprio))
                      17. +2
                        April 27 2020 18: 16
                        No, the girl is democratic - met with Leonardo DiCaprio))

                        If the Sea Cat wants to meet her, then nothing shines for me anyway. request And DiCaprio will look like a discounted product! laughing drinks Colleagues - a cool company with us! good Thank you all!
                      18. +2
                        April 27 2020 21: 02
                        Phew, girls! That's disgusting! He didn’t even sleep with the horse, he slept in it !!!! negative laughing laughing
                      19. +3
                        April 27 2020 19: 44
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        no matter what nonsense she carries! Even about haplogroups and superethnoses

                        It's even more interesting this way. Like "This is what I do with the pseudosciences!" laughing
                      20. +3
                        April 27 2020 18: 43
                        Strange doubles in this election campaign.
                      21. +5
                        April 27 2020 19: 15
                        Hello, Sergey. hi What kind of doubles and what kind of company, I hope, not ours? drinks
                      22. +4
                        April 27 2020 19: 26
                        Like this. You look - annals. And take a closer look - pictures with namesakes.
                      23. +3
                        April 27 2020 21: 04
                        Bravo, Sergey!
                      24. +2
                        April 27 2020 21: 07
                        “And what are we?
                        And we are no worse than many ”(c).
                      25. +3
                        April 27 2020 21: 22
                        Oh yeah! Today I clearly realized that a jester is a path. Once you have chosen a path, you cannot turn off it.
                      26. +2
                        April 27 2020 21: 56
                        “Mockers are good prophets” (c).

                        The ability to join the ranks of the characters of Shakespeare, Walter Scott, A.K. Tolstoy, Dumas and the other, other, other - not so bad.

                        “Smile, gentlemen” (c).

                        And what is hiding behind the screen? Someone will figure out who will feel, who will pass by.
                      27. +2
                        April 27 2020 19: 34
                        Spring - dreams and smells invade the brain
                        Spring - Allergy and Avitaminosis

                        Well, here’s the whole song for you. smile
                      28. +3
                        April 27 2020 21: 12
                        Russian punk rock. Ruthless, merciless and .... lyrical!
                      29. +5
                        April 27 2020 17: 56
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        we will be together with Shpakovsky

                        It’s better I’m alone ... I'm afraid of stuttering (a common word, but VO is forbidden!)

                        That's right, we all understood .. Such are available for all nationalities wink
                      30. +6
                        April 27 2020 15: 56
                        Bar 1 - make aliyah, return to the Land of Ancestors, the Land of Zion and Jerusalem - we will together with Shpakovsky make plans for the next vile blow from around the fraternal

                        "He shouted -" There is a mistake!
                        I'm a Jew! "
                        laughing
                        The bar is more visible, it has already decomposed the genotype of Vyacheslav Olegovich into haplogroups, and has already reached Adam. drinks
                      31. +4
                        April 27 2020 16: 10
                        To Kozlevich ??
                      32. +3
                        April 27 2020 16: 20
                        and reached right up to Adam.

                        no, which is without a rib, but with Eve was kicked out of paradise under the back with a knee due to the intrigues of the green snake tempter. drinks
                      33. +5
                        April 27 2020 16: 26
                        For tasted, asp, Polish apple! negative
                      34. +1
                        April 27 2020 16: 40
                        For tasted, asp, Polish apple!

                        again the Poles are to blame! belay solid cycle! laughing again tricks V.O. Shpakovsky? wassat
                      35. +3
                        April 27 2020 16: 43
                        All of him, all of them are Vyacheslav Olegovich ... either his Pravda writes articles discrediting the Soviet system, or praises gay European history ...
                      36. +3
                        April 27 2020 16: 51
                        All of him, all of them are Vyacheslav Olegovich ... either his Pravda writes articles discrediting the Soviet system, or praises gay European history ...

                        That's it, but not a word about the construction of pyramids with tartars! angry these are all the machinations of the Naglosaksian lack of ethnos and the others that joined them all! drinks
                      37. +2
                        April 27 2020 18: 57
                        And also ..., and also ..., he rivets weapons at night! And in the sunglasses of the foreign company * RAY BAN * he advertises it, he saw it yesterday !!!! bully laughing bully
                      38. +1
                        April 27 2020 19: 43
                        C'mon Ray Ban - wearing Serengeti glasses - that how behe alludes to his involvement in the overthrow of Gaddafi! feel
                      39. +3
                        April 27 2020 19: 49
                        * My dear d'Artagnan, I admit everything ... *
                        And there is also a breed of cats with that name. Serengeti.
                      40. +1
                        April 27 2020 19: 55
                        So - works for the Egyptian Mukhabarat am
                      41. +3
                        April 27 2020 19: 52
                        And Olegovich intrigued me a lot with these eyepieces in the photo!
                      42. +3
                        April 27 2020 19: 56
                        Abas's poor puppet oppressor companion Bar Abas - Basilio!
                      43. +3
                        April 27 2020 20: 01
                        We must take it into development!
                        Is your real name?
                        -Where did you cross the border?
                        -Where did you bury the parachute? laughing bully
                      44. +2
                        April 27 2020 20: 02
                        - Stirlitz, are you a Jew?
                        - No, Russian!
                        Here you are fellow
                      45. +3
                        April 27 2020 20: 06
                        Oh! Soulmate !!!!!!
                        * For a beer, Mueller asks Stirlitz:
                        -My friend, what is your favorite movie?
                        - * Volga-Volga *, Stirlitz wanted to answer. But he came to his senses and answered:
                        - * Volkswagen-Volkswagen *.
                      46. +4
                        April 27 2020 20: 10
                        "Stirlitz went into the forest to pick mushrooms. And he didn’t come back. Lost, he could not remember how it would be in German - * Ay! *”
                      47. +5
                        April 27 2020 21: 34
                        "Maxim Isaev, to descendants:" What would you know about the "remote" !!! "
                      48. +5
                        April 27 2020 21: 42
                        But what about this, Anton?
                        * Stirlitz walked through Berlin. Painters painted over the Russian word of three letters on the fence. "Oh! Thought Stirlitz, a new moderator was sent from the center. *
                      49. +4
                        April 27 2020 21: 59
                        But no way! These are all the jokes of our fading tribe. What our children are laughing at, we can still understand, what we laughing at, they do not perceive organically.
                      50. +2
                        April 28 2020 06: 45
                        Good morning! Well, it’s not surprising. Above the * case * of the times of Alexander Sergeyevich, we don’t laugh either. But now the pace of life has increased slightly and all the processes are happening faster. What was funny yesterday, today it causes only a smile. hi At best, and then condescending.
                      51. +3
                        April 28 2020 06: 55
                        Well, why? There are many literary jokes of the time, about Krylov for example. And their humor is quite accessible to us.
                      52. +5
                        April 27 2020 22: 59
                        February 23, Stirlitz came to work in a sweatshirt, earflaps, PPSh on his shoulder and a bottle of moonshine. To meet Bormann in a vest, he looks at him condemningly.
                        "Wow - thought Stirlitz - if it were not for the senior comrades, I would not have remembered that February 23 is a holiday not only for the Red Army, but also for the Navy"!
                      53. +4
                        April 27 2020 22: 52
                        Quote: Krasnodar

                        - Stirlitz, are you a Jew?
                        - No, Russian!
                        Here you are

                        - Stirlitz, are you a Jew?
                        - I'm Russian, Muller!
                        - And I'm German ...
                      54. +4
                        April 27 2020 23: 02
                        - Stirlitz, you, an hour, not a Jew?
                        - Well yes! My mother is Russian, my father is Russian, and for some reason I am a Jew, - Stirlitz was offended and thought: “Have I blabbed something superfluous?”
                      55. +2
                        April 28 2020 09: 17
                        And Olegovich intrigued me a lot with these eyepieces in the photo!

                        (Vyacheslav Olegovich, in a brutal voice):- I need your glasses, your clothes and your motorcycle ... bully (ta da da da da dam) laughing
                      56. +1
                        April 28 2020 16: 10
                        Oh! Yes !!!! And it sounds:
                        * Bad to the Bone * !!!!!! laughing
                      57. +1
                        April 27 2020 16: 47
                        I did a little research here on my roots and what I found out interesting: since my grandfather and great-grandfather bore my surname Tatarynov, what does it mean? It turned out that there are two versions: Taratynov comes from a distorted reading from Latin into Russian and vice versa. The sound "S" and "C" was designated by the Latin "S", which was also read as "T". Taratynov means Saratsynov, a native of Turkey or the Mediterranean coast. Version 2. The surname Taratyn is derived from the nickname Taratyn, which is presumably etymologically associated with the Ukrainian verb "taratoty", which means "knock", "rattle", "rattle". Thus, it can be assumed that the founder of the Taratynov family was a talker, a joker, perhaps just not a restrained person in speeches, for which he received his nickname. It is also possible that the nickname Taratyn refers to professional naming conventions and indicates the ancestor's occupation: for example, he could be a carpenter or miller, that is, perform work associated with noise, knocking. Taratyn, eventually got the surname Taratynov. Judging by the grandfather, who was never a talker, and his father, too, judging by the grandfather's stories, if there were "talkers" among them, that is, for a long time. Great-grandfather was from Morshansk and it is clear that he was Orthodox. Then the nationality was not written in the passport. They wrote who believed in what. Judging by the nose, God did not offend them either their grandfather or me, I would rather agree to a native of Turkey, but where did they come from in Morshansk, where all the relatives lived? But both the grandfather and the great-grandfather worked at the blacksmith's, from ordinary hammers to the rank of master of the Penza railway workshops. That's how it happens!
                      58. +4
                        April 27 2020 16: 54
                        Talking about the purity of a European nation (and not only) a couple of thousand years ago was ridiculous.))
                      59. +4
                        April 27 2020 16: 56
                        Interesting story, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
                        The surname Taratynov is derived from the nickname Taratyn, which is supposedly etymologically associated with the Ukrainian verb "taratoti", which means "knocking", "popping", "chattering."

                        They similarly called the head of the Streletsky order of Khovansky - "Tararuy"... Precisely for the fact that he was able to speak beautifully, "beat", verbally influencing the revolutionary masses. fellow Now they would call him "orator" or "revolutionary tribune", but then such words were not known in Russia. As you remember, he ended badly, but the time of his "management" of the archers was called "Khovanshchina", and then the opera of the same name was written. hi
                      60. +3
                        April 27 2020 19: 22
                        with the Ukrainian verb "taratoti"
                        Taratoriti.
              3. +10
                April 27 2020 12: 53
                Quote: Bar1
                And with your "science" I have nothing to do

                This we understood a long time ago. laughing
                You with and from the Russian language also have little in common. laughing
                However, the loss for both one and the other is completely small. What science, that language, your absence is unlikely to be noticed. smile
                1. -4
                  April 27 2020 12: 56
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  This we understood a long time ago.
                  You with and from the Russian language also have little in common.
                  However, the loss for both one and the other is completely small. What science, what language, your absence is unlikely to be noticed

                  as usual it’s a lie, from trilobite ...
                  1. +5
                    April 27 2020 16: 05
                    Quote: Bar1
                    Quote: Trilobite Master

                    This we understood a long time ago.
                    You with and from the Russian language also have little in common.
                    However, the loss for both one and the other is completely small. What science, what language, your absence is unlikely to be noticed


                    as usual it’s a lie, from trilobite ...

                    And what? Did you notice? Have you tried checking? laughing
          3. +5
            April 27 2020 15: 37
            That's just the word "karta" is not Russian, but of foreign origin))
      2. +8
        April 27 2020 10: 30
        [quote = Bar1] [quote] Somehow very little, about the Lavrentievsky Chronicle it should be said that this document itself appeared in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, and before that time no one had heard anything about it.

        The Ipatiev Chronicle was found in the library of the Academy of Sciences by that very court historiographer who wrote this story to us -Karamzin and it was already in the 19th century.
        It is divided into several lists, the main Khlebnikovsky and Pogodinsky.
        . [/ Quote]
        The fact that the chronicles were published since the 18th century does not speak of their forgery, history, how science began to be created in Russia at that time. And the analysis of the chronicles was carried out only paleographic, no one checked the sheets of the chronicles as of the date of their creation. So there is no need to forge concepts. Those who like to argue that the chronicles were rewritten or even written in the 8th century have no idea what they are talking about. The chronicles have about 500 volumes, count how much time is needed and with what secrecy you need to work to create these "forgeries". laughing
        1. -2
          April 27 2020 11: 12
          Quote: Wend
          from the fact that the annals have been published since the 18th century does not speak about their falsification, the history of how science began to be created in Russia at that time.


          have you heard about the historian Lyzlov? It was a historian of the 17th century, and then until the MIDDLE of the 19th century and the Academy of Sciences was ruled by German historians, they wrote all these "stories" to us.

          Quote: Wend
          generally written in! 8 centuries do not represent what they say


          Duc not in the 18th century, but as Ipatievskaya in the 19th century.

          Quote: Wend
          The chronicles have about 500 volumes, count how much time is needed and with what secrecy you need to work to create these "forgeries".


          for one hundred and fifty years, clerks from the Kiev-Pechersk Mohyla Academy quite coped with this task.
          1. +7
            April 27 2020 11: 26
            Quote: Bar1
            Quote: Wend
            from the fact that the annals have been published since the 18th century does not speak about their falsification, the history of how science began to be created in Russia at that time.


            have you heard about the historian Lyzlov? It was a historian of the 17th century, and then until the MIDDLE of the 19th century and the Academy of Sciences was ruled by German historians, they wrote all these "stories" to us.

            Quote: Wend
            generally written in! 8 centuries do not represent what they say


            Duc not in the 18th century, but as Ipatievskaya in the 19th century.

            Quote: Wend
            The chronicles have about 500 volumes, count how much time is needed and with what secrecy you need to work to create these "forgeries".


            for one hundred and fifty years, clerks from the Kiev-Pechersk Mohyla Academy quite coped with this task.

            I repeat, work with so many annals would not withstand secrecy and data on falsification, of such a massive scale, could not be hidden, no fantasies needed. I understand that from the camp the whole history of Russia is a lie, but you need to think about it with your head.
            1. -1
              April 27 2020 11: 32
              Quote: Wend
              Quote: Bar1
              Quote: Wend
              from the fact that the annals have been published since the 18th century does not speak about their falsification, the history of how science began to be created in Russia at that time.


              have you heard about the historian Lyzlov? It was a historian of the 17th century, and then until the MIDDLE of the 19th century and the Academy of Sciences was ruled by German historians, they wrote all these "stories" to us.

              Quote: Wend
              generally written in! 8 centuries do not represent what they say


              Duc not in the 18th century, but as Ipatievskaya in the 19th century.

              Quote: Wend
              The chronicles have about 500 volumes, count how much time is needed and with what secrecy you need to work to create these "forgeries".


              for one hundred and fifty years, clerks from the Kiev-Pechersk Mohyla Academy quite coped with this task.

              I repeat, work with so many annals would not withstand secrecy and data on falsification, of such a massive scale, could not be hidden, no fantasies needed. I understand that from the camp the whole history of Russia is a lie, but you need to think about it with your head.


              Well, the argumentative is your weak, "they did not cope" they say, whoever thinks, I think they did it.
              1. +1
                April 27 2020 16: 46
                Quote: Bar1
                Quote: Wend
                Quote: Bar1
                Quote: Wend
                from the fact that the annals have been published since the 18th century does not speak about their falsification, the history of how science began to be created in Russia at that time.


                have you heard about the historian Lyzlov? It was a historian of the 17th century, and then until the MIDDLE of the 19th century and the Academy of Sciences was ruled by German historians, they wrote all these "stories" to us.

                Quote: Wend
                generally written in! 8 centuries do not represent what they say


                Duc not in the 18th century, but as Ipatievskaya in the 19th century.

                Quote: Wend
                The chronicles have about 500 volumes, count how much time is needed and with what secrecy you need to work to create these "forgeries".


                for one hundred and fifty years, clerks from the Kiev-Pechersk Mohyla Academy quite coped with this task.

                I repeat, work with so many annals would not withstand secrecy and data on falsification, of such a massive scale, could not be hidden, no fantasies needed. I understand that from the camp the whole history of Russia is a lie, but you need to think about it with your head.


                Well, the argumentative is your weak, "they did not cope" they say, whoever thinks, I think they did it.

                Weak for you laughing laughing laughing laughing for you forehead a historical material is not an argument, if it does not fit into the rule, the history of Russia is a lie laughing dreamers divorced laughing
      3. +1
        April 28 2020 09: 41
        Bar1, do not read at night folk-historians who are historians like me a ballerina. The Ipatiev Chronicle (or rather the Ipatiev Chronicle Code) is a South Russian chronicle, the first edition of which was compiled at the beginning of the 15th century, and its six copies - in the 16-17th centuries. The list is just a copy, the alteration is called revision or version. No "enemies of Russia" did not rewrite any chronicles for us, this is just a delusional fable circulating on the Internet. There is simply no point in rewriting the chronicles.
    4. +2
      April 28 2020 09: 51
      Since I am well acquainted with the annals, I can assure you that the rulers (church or secular) changed only the interpretation of events, and the historical facts themselves usually did not touch. In the worst case, a "default figure" was used without mentioning inconvenient events. Chronicle is not a history, it is just a fixation of the events taking place, nothing more. Of course, the chronicler usually did not check how reliable the information that he writes down is, so the annals are full of legends, myths and doubtful facts. But professional historians for several centuries carefully check the information of the chronicles for reliability. Although sometimes it is difficult to find out what is true and what is fiction. But is it only in relation to ancient Russia? Look at the history of the 20th and 21st centuries, you will see a very different interpretation and a list of facts and events, different assessments of personalities. Stalin did not live 1000 years from us, there are a lot of sources for the period of the 20-50-ies, but look how different interpretations are. For some, Stalin is a great leader, and the Stalinist period is the rise and flowering of the Soviet state. For others, Stalin is a tyrant and a maniac, and the Stalinist period was a continuous gulag and repression. And who is right? But from Stalin to us, by historical standards, very few years have passed.
    5. 0
      April 28 2020 17: 52
      Quote: Free Wind
      Hello. I don’t really trust all these manuscripts-censuses. First of all, they describe what the next ruler or church needs. write an essay on three annals, destroy the originals.

      "" "On the contrary, whoever saw it wrote that way, remembering, however, that God is for a lie, the more so he will punish him twice.““ ”- they did not take upon themselves, and therefore they attributed -“ Behold, I heard from a samovid, And behold from another chronicler, And behold, from another old one. ”Apparently, only the first chronicler had the opportunity to embellish certain events for the sake of Vladyka. The rest made a list, that is, a copy.
      Massively burned books during the time of the split, when all church books decided to lead to a single text for all churches for a single reading and interpretation of prayers and rites.
  2. +1
    April 27 2020 07: 12
    interesting topic!
    Radzivilov Chronicle.

    a real work of art, amazingly beautiful miniatures!

    Withdrawal Polovtsy part of the Russian population captive, 1093. Description of the event in miniature in the text of the annals: “... and people of division and vedzha in honor of their compassion and kindred. Many kind of christian

    "Nothing, we coped with the Polovtsians, we also coped with the Pechenegs" (c) yes:

    View of the Ipatiev Monastery in Kostroma


    It’s good that at least it was preserved ....

    but the most amazing pearl of Russia, the medieval Kostroma Kremlin.... blew up people
  3. +14
    April 27 2020 07: 15
    The Ipatiev Chronicle by and large is not a separate narrative. A set of various lists of annals, further combined by chronology (with chronological errors)
    Comrades, I will try to give the structure of the IPL "in military"
    The Ipatiev Chronicle includes three separate parts arranged in chronological order.
    1. This part of the chronicle is known as the initial chronicle - “The Tale of Bygone Years” (PVL). The first part is devoted to the history of Kievan Rus until 1110.
    2. This part of the chronicle is known as the Kiev Chronicle. It begins from the place where the PVL ends, and continues the narrative until 1200. 3. This part of the annals is known as the Galician-Volyn annals, it covers the period from 1200 to 1292. This part of the Ipatiev Chronicle is directly related to the Principality of Galicia-Volyn, a state formed after the partition of Kievan Rus.
    The chronicle has been preserved in 5 lists:
    1. Ipatievsky list (the first quarter of the XV century.). The list is completed by entries relating to the Pinsk and Stepan princes of 1292.
    2. Khlebnikov list (XVI century.), Created in the southwestern territories. It was made from the same original as Ipatievsky, but in some places there are more correct readings. In addition, the list fills in some of the gaps found in the Ipatiev list.
    3.Pogodinsky, which refers to the XVII century. Its ending has been lost.
    4. The Cracow list of the late 5th century, made with an earlier manuscript in Latin letters. It has an ending that is not in the previous list. XNUMX. Ermolaevsky list, relating to the end of the XVII - the beginning of the XVIII century
    Possible primary sources
    According to the philologist and linguist A. A. Shakhmatov, it includes four sources:
    1. The General Russian annalistic vault, whose origin dates back to the beginning of the 1479th century, and the Suzdal region is called the place of compilation. It is considered as one of the sources on the basis of which the Ipatiev and Lavrentiev annals and the annals of the Moscow Principality of XNUMX were written.
    2.Kiev arch related to 1199. The place of its compilation was the Mikhailovsky Vydubitsky Monastery in Kiev.
    3. Chernigov Chronicle.
    4. The Galician-Volyn annals
    Current copies of the Ipatiev list
    Two copies of the Ipatiev list are stored in archives.
    1. One manuscript, stored in the Russian State Archive of Ancient Acts, was made on 346 pages, judging by the same handwriting, it was written by one person. The record was made on blue paper and dated to 1814. On the last sheet there is a recording made by the scribe: From the original of this chronicler, the collegiate registrar Peter Bolshakov copied. This list was checked with the original by the college adviser and gentleman Ivan Zhdanovsky. On the first sheet there is another entry: This chronicle, called Volynsky, was presented to the Archive Library of 1816. A. Malinovsky.
    2. Another copy of the Ipatiev Chronicle is stored in the library of the Russian Academy of Sciences. The date of its creation is 1819. It was made by the archaeographer V. G. Anastasovich. The manuscript includes elements of the Khlebnikov and Ermolaev lists. Khlebnikov list The manuscript includes 386 sheets. Its owner for some time was a merchant P.K. Khlebnikov from Kolomna. On the binding and on the first sheet in filigree technique the coat of arms of the city of Yaroslavl is made. The first page of the list lists the princes who ruled in Kiev until 1240, when Batu took the city. The list contains blank sheet inserts that have a pagination designation. Some of them have a watermark from the Mosolov Rolling Factory, dating back to the 1750s. In the period from 1753 to 1756, a lot of notes were made on the pages. Some of them were cut off when weaving, so the list was bound after 1756. The main part of the list was written in the late 50s - early 60s of the XVI century. It was written by one scribe, except for one small fragment on the 226th sheet. The manuscript was written in South Russian and has typical linguistic features. The postscript made in the next century also indicate South Russian origin. By the XNUMXth century some pages of the list were lost, some of them seemed confused. Instead of the lost sheets, new ones were added, they were copied from some other.

    I apologize for such a long comment, in short it did not work out
    1. +10
      April 27 2020 07: 57
      You wrote a great comment! In theory, this is the actual addition to the article. It is always nice to be complemented in exactly this way. Thank!
    2. -2
      April 27 2020 09: 24
      Quote: Rich
      .Khlebnikovsky list (XVI century) created in the southwestern territories. It was made from the same original as Ipatievsky, but in some places there are more correct readings. In addition, the list fills in some of the gaps found in the Ipatiev list.


      in general, the Ipatiev Chronicle is compiled by the lists of Khlebnikovsky, Pogodinsky and some more.
      1. +4
        April 27 2020 15: 47
        I agree with you. Not quite well formulated
  4. +8
    April 27 2020 07: 25
    Ipatyevsky Monastery

    According to the monastery legend, the Ipatiev Monastery was founded around 1330 by the Tatar Murza Chet, the ancestor of the Godunov and Saburov family, who fled from the Golden Horde to Ivan Kalita and was baptized in Moscow under the name Zakharia. In this place he had a vision of the Mother of God with the upcoming Apostle Philip and the holy martyr Ipat Gangra, the result of which was his healing from the disease. In gratitude for healing, a monastery was founded on this site. Modern scholars consider the Murza Murza a mythical figure, and “The Legend of Prince Chet” a genealogical legend designed to give the princely status to the Godunov family.
    According to Academician Stepan Veselovsky, the monastery was founded by Prince Vasily Yaroslavich, brother of Alexander Nevsky, who had already become the Grand Duke of Vladimir, but who preferred to live in Kostroma.
    After the death of Prince Vasily and the abolition of the Principality of Kostroma, the monastery came under the protection of the Godunov clan, which rose in the middle of the XNUMXth century. The Godunovs, like some other noble noble families (Zakharyins, Veliaminovs, Saburovs, Sheins), considered Zakharia (Chet) to be the ancestor. Its representatives became clerks of the Ipatiev Monastery. On the territory of the monastery is the tomb of this ancient and famous boyar family, including the grave of father and mother Boris Godunov.
    According to Professor L.I.Shanina, the monastery was founded by the Novgorodians, since St. Hypatius was revered in Novgorod as the patron saint of the posadniks, and the Kostroma River has long been one of the ways to move Novgorod to the Volga.
    photo1. Alexey Bogolyubov. Ipatiev Monastery near Kostroma. 1861. State Tretyakov Gallery
    1. +4
      April 27 2020 09: 35
      Quote: Rich
      Ipatyevsky Monastery

      beauty!

      but it’s exactly 110 years ago-photo from almost the same point:


      and this Cathedral of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary Ipatiev Monastery 110 years ago:


      Only a photo remains of it - blown up by nonhumans in 1934

      On the right you can see the bell tower of the monastery.

      photos of the remarkable Russian scientist and photographer Prokudin-Gorsky
      1. Fat
        +1
        April 27 2020 12: 12
        Quote: Olgovich
        Quote: Rich
        Ipatyevsky Monastery

        beauty!

        but it’s exactly 110 years ago-photo from almost the same point:


        and this Cathedral of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary Ipatiev Monastery 110 years ago:


        Only a photo remains of it - blown up by nonhumans in 1934

        On the right you can see the bell tower of the monastery.

        photos of the remarkable Russian scientist and photographer Prokudin-Gorsky

        The Cathedral of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the Ipatiev Monastery has been restored and consecrated. You will be able to see the passage.
        But so far only outside. Service is not conducted there (For 2017) ... the interior decoration, that is, the painting, is not finished. In theory, Palekh masters should work there, as before in the 19th century ... Yes, yes. This temple is not very ancient, built in the 60-70s of the century before last, designed by K. A. Ton.
        So, in addition to the photo, the project itself (partially) was found and used.
  5. +7
    April 27 2020 07: 48
    Very timely article.,.
    I watched the series "The Name of the Rose" and wondered how this was with us?
    Thanks to the author and commentators.
  6. +6
    April 27 2020 07: 49
    Thanks to the author. I hope that other sources, the same Novgorod annals, will also describe in the sequel ...
    1. +9
      April 27 2020 08: 00
      Sergei! There is a problem with this. Material for the article is still lying. And I don’t remember if it is there or not. And to search again ... this one was collecting a lot of time from various sources. After all, the web has it all. But EVERYTHING has to be compared, something to be read from books ... In a word, you cannot write a monograph, the number of characters in the article is limited, there are a lot of annals and how to combine all this? Complicated!
      1. +6
        April 27 2020 08: 03
        Quote: kalibr
        In a word, a monograph cannot be written, the number of characters in the article is limited, there are many chronicles, and how to combine all this? Complicated!

        Excellent, so I will wait for the continuation ... Well, I must also criticize, otherwise everything is "approved" and "approved" ... tongue Good luck and inspiration ...
        1. +5
          April 27 2020 10: 55
          So I always seem to have a good attitude to constructive criticism, so criticize your health!
          1. +5
            April 27 2020 10: 56
            Quote: kalibr
            to health!

            A good toast, most importantly topical ... drinks hi
          2. +1
            April 28 2020 22: 02
            Quote: kalibr
            So I always seem to have a good attitude to constructive criticism, so criticize your health!

            Well then, I’ll add a little constructive not malicious criticism for the sake of, but objectivity for ....
            And the conclusion: such a number of figures, coupled with the text, is fake physically impossible. And most importantly, such a fake would not make sense, since it would be easily established by cross-comparison with other texts, and errors in illustrations - by archeological data. Wherever you throw, everywhere a wedge! Or do you fake one to one, they say, you found another list previously unknown and want to sell it for a lot of money (there is still at least some hope that they will not get it, although it’s very weak), or we’ll make changes there, and here we are exposes the first specialist! That is, in any case, the money spent will not pay off. Only 617 miniatures ... well ... 500000 p. for each + text ... expensive comes out pleasure, right? And most importantly, why?
            It’s unlikely that anyone will take up fake old texts for sale since it’s unlikely that you’ll earn anything on this due to the fact that you can overlap with dictionaries and you can copy the writing style, but it is impossible to express a thought in those semantic phrases and find "that paper, that ink and that cinnabar." To counterfeit at that level, you need to really invest a lot of money in the reconstruction of technologies and the production of at least small batches of paper in the structure corresponding to that period, not counting other subtleties.
            Just the other day, I had a chance to hold in my hands a handwritten book in order to determine an approximate dating - "Prayer succession for the deliverance of the ailing and violence of unclean spirits and prayers for the spell of the same evil spirits" a house, or a place enchanted, and seduced by evil dreams "- In other words, about the expulsion of demons, the removal of the evil eye, damage and other love spells from people, pets and houses, with the help of prayer. On the margins there are two records indicating the name of the priest who performed the rituals (native of the city of Uglich) and the place where he served (the village of Trinity in Boru). Deepening into the history of working in archives is a long process, so we chose the path of researching the material itself. Watermarks YAMSYa (1779) and YAMVSYA (1794) were found in the light of the pages, which gave an understanding that the paper for the book was made at the Yaroslavl Manufactory of Savva Yakovlev and the grandchildren of Savva Yakovlev, i.e. (1779-1794 years of release) and the book was written in the late 18th, early 19th century. The book was heavily marked with wax - apparently the priest often drove demons at that time. hi
  7. +7
    April 27 2020 07: 53
    Thanks to the dear author for the interesting material. And especially for the author's courage. The topic he raised was painfully "slippery" and contradictory even among specialist historians. There are countless different opinions on this matter. Therefore, as a dialectant in this matter, I will be careful not to comment on it, I will limit myself only to reference data. But I will read the comments with pleasure. I especially look forward to comments from AllBiBek, the Trilobite Master (Mikhail), Eduard Vaschenko (Eduard), Phil77 (Sergey), Undecim, arturpraetor (Artyom), Operator (Andrey), Bar1 (Pavel), and Vyacheslav Olegovich himself.
    1. +6
      April 27 2020 08: 03
      Dmitry, my respect hi
      Undecima's name is Victor Nikolaevich.
      1. +6
        April 27 2020 08: 09
        Good morning Anton hi
        Many thanks. Always liked his comments.
        1. +5
          April 27 2020 08: 14
          Always happy to help!
          Generally, VikNik published articles under the "Dekabrist" account.
          1. +3
            April 27 2020 12: 29
            Somewhere I saw an article, an article signed by the Decembrist, but did not know who he was
        2. +9
          April 27 2020 08: 26
          Good morning Dmitry! Thank you very much for the mention, but ... Sorry, but I frankly * swim * in this thread! Therefore, I’d better read the article and the comments on it. Without any fawning / and what is it for? /, But I read your comments with great pleasure! Honestly, but your knowledge would have been sufficient for more than one article, and your syllable is wonderful! I’m waiting !!! hi Yes, yes, Vyacheslav Olegovich thanks for the next work! Informative! hi
          1. +6
            April 27 2020 08: 28
            I read your comments with great pleasure!

            I am yours hi
            1. +5
              April 27 2020 08: 32
              I’m waiting, waiting, Dmitry for your article on the history of the Terek Cossacks! Yes, and this topic has been waiting for you! I’m sure. hi
    2. +7
      April 27 2020 09: 58
      Therefore, as a dilettante in this matter I will beware of commenting on it, I will limit myself only to reference data.
      I don’t know how others (I won’t talk about Bara, his violent ignorance is a separate issue), but comments of informational, informational nature in this case are the most optimal approach.
      Some kind of conceptual conclusions can be born only on the basis of very serious work on the primary sources and the results of the study of chronicles by scientists.
      Well, or on the basis of dense ignorance.
      1. +6
        April 27 2020 10: 57
        Quote: Undecim
        Some kind of conceptual conclusions can be born only on the basis of very serious work on the primary sources and the results of the study of chronicles by scientists.

        Exactly! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      2. -4
        April 27 2020 11: 28
        the servile fear of going beyond eleven is what he considers "literacy", but in reality it is certainly not so.
    3. +4
      April 27 2020 10: 56
      Quote: Rich
      Bar1 (Paul)

      I am for relatively everyone except his one ...
      1. +9
        April 27 2020 12: 58
        Well, in vain. I believe that Pavel is an excellent catalyst for increasing your commentary activity. After all, it is from your debate with him that we are amateur non-professionals and we receive those competent and detailed posts for which we value Undecima. kalibrand, Master Trilobite и arturpraetorа
        1. +4
          April 27 2020 15: 44
          Quote: Rich
          Pavel is an excellent catalyst for increasing your commentary activity.

          This is you so judge by youth. After 65, I'm sure you will judge differently. Although there are always exceptions.
  8. +1
    April 27 2020 08: 11
    She came here in the XVIII century from the Ipatiev Monastery, which is located near Kostroma.
    Ipatiev Monastery is located not under Kostroma, but in Kostroma.
    1. +5
      April 27 2020 08: 23
      Glory hi
      For you as a local, God himself ordered the pictures of this monastery to be posted (both inside and out). It would be very interesting
      1. Fat
        +2
        April 27 2020 12: 32
        Quote: Rich
        Glory hi
        For you as a local, God himself ordered the pictures of this monastery to be posted (both inside and out). It would be very interesting

        https://monasterium.ru/monastyri/monastery/svyato-troitskiy-ipatevskiy-muzhskoy-monastyr/
        The monastery is not always allowed to take pictures. Click here for the official photo gallery.
        1. +3
          April 27 2020 14: 33
          Thank you, Andrey Borisovich
          1. Fat
            +1
            April 27 2020 21: 09
            Not at all ... I had a chance to work for several seasons in Ipatievsky sometimes taking pictures, but I couldn’t find the photo quickly ..
            And in the official gallery, most of the species are precisely made in the period from 2000 to 2012 (((
  9. +6
    April 27 2020 08: 30
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich! Due to the fact that the topic of this cycle for me is "terra incognita", I cannot ask the traditional "smart question". However, I am grateful to you for expanding my knowledge in this area.
  10. +8
    April 27 2020 09: 06
    Therefore, we will begin, perhaps, with the Manuscripts Department of the Russian National Library, where, together with other valuable manuscripts of our ancestors, the chronicle, called Lavrentievskaya, is also stored.

    Today - 438 thousand units of storage. The department is one of the ten largest manuscript repositories in the world.
    1. +7
      April 27 2020 09: 16
      We read it a lot, since it is clear that its sheets not only dilapidated, but also numerous traces of drops of wax from candles are visible on the pages. That is, in its six hundredth century, this book has seen a lot.
      1. +5
        April 27 2020 09: 31
        And she was named after the person who rewrote it in 1377, and at the end, on the very last page, left such an interesting autograph: “Az (I) is a thin, unworthy and many-sinful servant of God Laurentius of mine (monk)” .
        There were actually three scribes. But the "autograph" was left only by one - Lawrence, perhaps he was in charge.
      2. +6
        April 27 2020 11: 14
        Better not read it.! Parchment is stored for a long time, but not indefinitely. Many factors are important, most notably temperature and humidity. It was not tanned, but to increase its durability, the parchment was impregnated with fat. And this attracted insects. Parchment is a very expensive product. For one folded into two sheets, one animal was required. They were then folded and stitched together. ... Four such double sheets nested inside each other, NOTEBOOK. And then they were bound into a book. The parchment was made from different materials, the price also varied. Calfskin and human skin parchment was very expensive; more expensive was "girl's parchment". There are books written on this material. The most expensive ones there are of fallow deer, figs, etc. And so for the general development. Currently the most expensive leather, Blue Whale member leather. There was a scandal at one time, we can say that the seat covers, in the "sedan fret" were sewn from this leather, and showed at the exhibition. Albert who the prince almost spoke Russian. I'm exaggerating, of course, but that was the case. The car was called Kombat.
  11. +2
    April 27 2020 10: 16
    A question for those who are fond of history Nobody dug information about the so-called "Midnight Walk of the Monk Polycarp"? (I've already shoveled so many things, but I still can't figure out whether it's been injecting or not. And most importantly, even if it’s been injected, is there that spoon of honey that is worth continuing to “dig”?)
    1. +4
      April 27 2020 12: 27
      Greetings ,awdrgy hi
      I recommend you to read - Vasily Shchepetnev. "The Singers of Hell" (novel in novels). Ed. Prestige Buk, 2015 Series: Retro library of adventure and science fiction.ISBN: 978-5-371-00465-9

      On pages 90-96 placed short story "The Midnight Walk of the Monk Polycarp". Actually from her and grow the legs of the whole story.
      You can download the book for free without any difficulty - either by Author, or by name, or by ISBN from any library of electronic books.
      And so that you are not mistaken in its "truthfulness" and "scientific". Look at the review of it from the site "Knigogid.ru" - click on this picture and it will increase
      1. +2
        April 27 2020 13: 00
        Thank you, I also went out to it and read excerpts earlier, apparently, too, everything is from there as it is written in the review However, I am just wondering if there are any real grounds under the author's invention, albeit not so "fried" (so far I have not found anything) Since I will continue this very exciting business digging Anyway, the information encountered along the way is very interesting
        1. +8
          April 27 2020 13: 37
          Yuri Senkevich was also fond of this topic. In the 80s he was read by his articles on the history, archeology, life and development of the Arctic
          1. +3
            April 27 2020 18: 10
            Quote: Rich
            Yuri Senkevich was also fond of this topic. In the 80s he was read by his articles on the history, archeology, life and development of the Arctic

            Wow, you haven’t seen such a photo .. Thank you !!!! Senkevich always thought a simple batan smart ..
            1. +6
              April 27 2020 19: 15
              Senkevich always thought simple batan smart

              Yuri Alexandrovich Senkevich
              Born March 4, 1937 in the city of Bayan-Tumen in Mongolia (now Choibalsan) in a family of military personnel. Father is a doctor. Mother is an operating sister
              In 1954 he graduated from secondary school No. 107 in Leningrad
              1960 - graduated from the Military Medical Academy. S. M. Kirov in Leningrad and
              Served Nach. Honey in the military unit 93762 of the city of Bologoe-4 (now ZATO Ozerny) of the Kalinin (Tver) region.
              1962 - transferred to Moscow to the Institute of Aviation and Space Medicine of the USSR Ministry of Defense.
              1963 - seconded to the Institute of Biomedical Problems of the Ministry of Health of the USSR, in which he went from a junior researcher to the head of the Specialized Training Center for Biomedical Cosmonauts, participating in the preparation and medical support of manned space flights and biosatellite flights (with animals on board). As a research doctor, he was trained to participate in space flight.
              More than 60 scientific papers have become the result of the research of Yu. A. Senkevich in the field of space physiology and psychology, the study of man in extreme conditions.
              1966-1967, on the instructions of the USSR Ministry of Defense, took part in the 12th Soviet Antarctic expedition to the Vostok station. One of the main directions of scientific research of Yu. Senkevich was the study of human behavior in extreme conditions. The materials collected in this expedition formed the basis of his dissertation.
              1969 - at the invitation of the famous Norwegian traveler-researcher Thor Heyerdahl made a trip on the papyrus boat "Ra" (1969), and then on the "Ra-2" (1970). Later in 1977-1978, an expedition in the Indian Ocean on the Tigris followed. Both expeditions were significant scientific events.
              1973-1982 - head of the department of scientific, medical and technical information at the Institute of Biomedical Problems of the USSR Academy of Sciences
              1973 - was invited to Central Television as the host of the Cinema Travel Club show, and the show was subsequently recorded in the Guinness Book of Records.
              1979 - took part in the medical support of the expedition of the USSR Ministry of Defense to the North Pole.
              1980-1982 - participated in the first Soviet expedition to Everest.
              Member of the CPSU
              Colonel of the medical service of the USSR Air Force
              Corresponding Member of the USSR Academy of Sciences
              In 1990, he was elected People's Deputy of the Moscow City Council of People's Deputies.
              1997 - elected academician of the Russian Television Academy, the Travelers Club show was awarded the highest award of the Russian television TEFI.
              He was president of the Association of Travelers of Russia, a member of the Union of Journalists of Russia, co-chair of the Foundation for International Humanitarian Aid and Cooperation.
              He died at the workplace on September 25, 2003 in Moscow at the 67th year of his life from heart failure.
              The funeral service took place in the Assumption Church of the Novodevichy Convent. He was buried at the Novodevichy cemetery.
              Awards
              Order of Merit to the Fatherland
              Order "For Service to the Homeland in the Armed Forces of the USSR" II degree
              Order "For Service to the Homeland in the Armed Forces of the USSR" III degree
              Order of Friendship of Peoples
              Order of the Badge of Honor
              Officer of the Order of the Alawite Throne (Morocco)
              Order of Merit (Egypt)
              Medals
              USSR State Prize - for research in Antarctica
              Memory
              On March 17, 2014, in honor of Yuri Senkevich, the new A-320 aircraft of Aeroflot Airlines was named
              The shipping company Sovcomflot named in honor of the famous Soviet traveler and researcher an ocean-going ice-class tanker with a total carrying capacity (deadweight) of 100 tons (twice the size of the Titanic) - Yuri Senkevich.
              The name of Yu. A. Senkevich was assigned to the GAOU VPO MGIIT.
              The gold medal of the Russian Geographical Society is named after Yu. A. Senkevich.
              Senkovich named the boulevard in Moscow.
              1. +3
                April 27 2020 19: 55
                Quote: Rich
                The gold medal of the Russian Geographical Society is named after Yu. A. Senkevich.
                Senkovich named the boulevard in Moscow.

                His calm voice "Travelers Club" still sounds in my head and his smile was very informative. Everything was very informative .. One of my favorite programs was and the children opened their mouths watching these programs and dreamed .. Oh, now there are none, he said, then what he himself studied and saw, and not just chatted after reading the wiki or whether google .. hi
                Thank you Rich, just nostalgia and did not know this ..
                He will remain forever in the souls of Soviet people !!!
  12. +7
    April 27 2020 10: 40
    The amazing work of the chroniclers.
    It is no coincidence that the Name of the Rose was recalled.

    “What is the same sinful
    On the slabby these sheets
    Hurry up the haste
    Or censuses ”(c).
  13. +8
    April 27 2020 12: 21
    "the main thing for the sake of?" This question should be addressed to "historians": Fomenko, Petukhov, Samsonov and prchm
  14. +3
    April 27 2020 12: 24
    Quote: Undecim
    And she was named after the person who rewrote it in 1377, and at the end, on the very last page, left such an interesting autograph: “Az (I) is a thin, unworthy and many-sinful servant of God Laurentius of mine (monk)” .
    There were actually three scribes. But the "autograph" was left only by one - Lawrence, perhaps he was in charge.

    Or conceited
  15. +3
    April 27 2020 14: 35
    "carriers of ancient books with great respect for the works of their predecessors" if modern historians so attributed to the work of their predecessors
  16. +5
    April 27 2020 15: 00
    Imagine taking the current drop from a newspaper stall: "Speed-Info", "Mother-in-law recipes", "Komsomolskaya Pravda", "Egoist", "Behind the wheel" ... and after a couple of thousand years try to describe our life with you and care...
    We wouldn’t recognize ourselves, it would be more feasible than a policeman Ivan Franko or an astronaut in earflaps and a sledgehammer.
  17. +6
    April 27 2020 15: 03
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, as always, thanks for the material. hi
    I’ll add from myself that the more I’m interested in source study, the more I understand that with the study of these very sources it’s all just as simple as the historians are doing tremendous work to decipher them and this work is very far from complete.
    To read the chronicler, to understand what he wrote is not enough, you also need to understand what he meant, what he wanted to say by inserting a passage in the text.
    And it’s probably worth noting that with the help of modern science, scientists can determine with acceptable accuracy not only the time when a particular text was written (by parchment, ink composition, way of writing letters), but also the time when and even where this text is was compiled - by its spelling features. Roughly speaking, based on the materials of the rewritten text, it is possible to determine when and where the original, initial one was composed. This is done by linguists.
    Mistakes are practically eliminated here, because linguists already have enough knowledge to trace changes in the Russian language with acceptable accuracy, in any case from the moment he found his writing, and by comparing with the related languages ​​of other Slavic peoples, to get a certain understanding of the preliterate language of our ancestors. A kind of dendrochronological scale.
    I think that after the end of the cycle on chronicles, it would make sense to consider a version of the cycle on birch bark letters. This is simply a valuable source of information about colloquial speech, in fact the direct speech of our ancestors who lived almost 1000 years ago, and this speech is not the language of official office work, but a living language, the language that they spoke in everyday life with each other.
    By the way, it is precisely because of the constant change in the language that forgeries of chronicles, and even more so corrections in them, are practically impossible. In any case, they were completely impossible even in the first half of the XNUMXth century, and even more so before, since no one at that time possessed such a quantity of linguistic knowledge to accurately imitate a text even three or four hundred years ago, not to mention more early texts. Therefore, "The Lay of Igor's Host" is a genuine work of the XNUMXth century, and "Veles's Book" is a fake, at the earliest in the late XNUMXth century, but rather in the middle of the XNUMXth century.
    Chronicles are studied in exactly the same way and, accordingly, up to half a century, the time for compiling (not writing, rewriting, namely compiling) the source text for the scribe is determined, which excludes thoughts about fakes, erasures, and other forgeries. Rather, such studies make it possible to identify with mathematical precision these same forgeries and corrections and even with no less accuracy to establish exactly when they were made - by the difference in style, spelling, etc.
    1. +7
      April 27 2020 15: 41
      That's all right, dear Michael!
    2. +5
      April 27 2020 15: 47
      How fast is the language changing now?
      If not spelling, for example, are the articles of the beginning, middle and end of the XNUMXth century different?

      Although, of course, there will always be some markers, in the form of names, and other dating.
      But after 500 years, it will be very difficult to distinguish.
      1. +5
        April 27 2020 15: 58
        Quote from Korsar4
        Are, for example, articles of the beginning, middle and end of the XNUMXth century different

        Of course. I think if you let newspaper articles from these three times be read, you, even without being a professional linguist, will be able to determine which time.
        It's even easier now than it was centuries ago. Language changes with life. Life changes faster, language changes faster. New words appear, old ones go away. And according to modern "birch bark letters" - all sorts of forums, guest books, where colloquial and even slang speech is used, it is not a problem at all to determine the time of writing a text.
        1. +5
          April 27 2020 16: 23
          The author remains that. The lines of early and late Leo Tolstoy and Dostoevsky are similar in similar genres.

          And elements of imitation can. Of course, there are borders. But they also have vagueness.
          1. +4
            April 27 2020 17: 36
            Quote from Korsar4
            The lines of early and late Leo Tolstoy and Dostoevsky are similar in similar genres.

            I think a professional linguist will find the difference. If we compare, for example, "Sevastopol Stories" and "Resurrection", then even a layman will find the difference, and the point is not only in the evolution of the work of the writer himself. However, I am certainly not a literary critic. smile
            Regarding languages ​​and their development, I read several articles by Anatoly Zaliznyak. I managed to catch and realize a few basic points.
            1. Do not develop, that is, only dead languages ​​do not change. Languages ​​that are used all the time are in a state of change.
            2. The speed of development (change) of the language directly depends on the speed of change in the life of its speakers and their communication capabilities. In the era of global informatization, these speeds increased by several orders of magnitude.
            3. Any existing language accurately reflects the reality surrounding its speakers, instantly adjusting to it.
            4. Changes in languages ​​occur according to laws universal for all languages. And strictly according to them and nothing else.
            5. Linguistics is an exact science, akin to mathematics with its identities, transformations and simplifications.
            6. The earlier the language received its own writing, the more in our time what is written will differ from what should be read. We write "today" instead of "today" because our ancestors said so - "today", and also began to write. The pronunciation has changed, but the letter remains. The French generally instead of the normal "sideу"they write" beaucoup ".
            7. Language always develops towards simplification of pronunciation.
            8. There are no ancient and new languages. There are only the living and the dead. To put it differently, all languages ​​are equally ancient.
            Maybe I forgot something from the main one. But somehow.
            1. +4
              April 27 2020 17: 46
              Красиво.

              It occurred to me that in different industries the speed of language change is different.
              We have not forgotten how to understand each other?

              And immediately the thought of how legislators can distort language. And how it is forced to be vaccinated.
            2. +2
              April 27 2020 21: 50
              Oh, demons, Verbitskaya is not on you! laughing
              Peace be upon her!
      2. +6
        April 27 2020 18: 06
        I was brought up on NIVA magazines from 1898 to 1917. They were in the house and I loved reading them. But out of habit, it was very difficult to understand them. Not even because of yat and feats. How everything else was written. I could, for example, reproduce their text, having this magazine before my eyes. But it is really difficult. Recently, for another article, he rewrote one excerpt from the chronicle. So sat on it longer than over a large text. Customized everything to vocabulary, and a system of phrases.
        1. +4
          April 27 2020 18: 15
          About my perception: if you compare the pre-revolutionary editions of Leo Tolstoy, books from the 90-volume, and 22 volumes - they are read differently.

          Articles on the specialty of the late XIX - early XX centuries delight in the transparency and imagery of the language.

          But there you are already directly looking at the authors. Something is lost.

          Like Hugo: "The book killed the building." So now - the text began to supplant the pictures.
          Are we going to come to comics gradually?
          1. Fat
            +2
            April 27 2020 20: 34
            Perhaps worse ... To video clips and presentations with subtitles and comments before and after ... (((
            1. +2
              April 27 2020 20: 38
              Bradbury incarnates.
  18. +5
    April 27 2020 16: 22
    On this sub-site, a number of articles have recently appeared with the purpose, in my opinion, to show "who is the boss here." These articles provoked controversy in the comments and, indeed, the comments were more interesting, for frequent, than the articles themselves. For professional historians it has always been extremely clear "who pays is the one who calls the tune" Step aside and you are no longer in the cage and a label is attached to you. The most harmless "liberal". A group of professional historians and like-minded people who have joined them, with a "classical" understanding of history, have formed on the site. This group initiates these articles. All those who disagree with the opinion of this group are immediately recorded as ignorant, alternative people, followers of Fomenko, etc. They are deeply convinced that a historian or a member of their group (circle) can talk about history. All others were denied expressing their own opinion. If someone dares to "incorrectly" comment on the "guru", the members of the circle will unanimously attack the name of the name, accusing him "of all sins" in a derogatory manner, where the most offensive thing is "go teach materiel".
    And vice versa. If a member of the circle of historians writes an article, it doesn't matter what, the circle members are unanimously praising the "writer" in every way. Such licking or blatant flattery, to me personally, is extremely unpleasant. Probably so it is accepted in scientific and historical circles. Several years ago, there were many diverse historical articles on the site. I always read about the history of Russia with pleasure and looked forward to new publications. I remember a series of articles about Prince Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, an article about the symbiosis of the Varangians (Vikings) and the Slavs, etc. Now there are practically no interesting articles on the history of Russia. I think this is the fruit of the "circle". I wondered, "Why do professional historians do and behave this way?" It seems that everything should be the other way around - fresh thoughts, new (different) reading of facts, their different interpretation, new methods that allow you to look differently at historical processes, logic, common sense, etc. But no. Professional historians, as a rule, teach history according to programs approved by "someone", exams are taken according to the same programs. And if a historical guru, God forbid, agree with some, even a controversial statement. For example, that the meaning of the so-called. The battle on the ice, I will humbly say, is exaggerated. How will the professional environment perceive him after that, and what will the students say at the exams? The dissertation passage is also all from there. Which dissertation candidate will write something contrary to the opinion of his supervisor? Nonsense. And also the scientific advice! Yes, a dissertation is a document on which money will be paid later. The meaning of the article boils down to the following - all of you who are not in the "circle", at best, know the history of 5 within the school curriculum and your position on this sub-site is corresponding. So, read carefully what the professionals write to you.
    The VO site is very good, there is a lot of analytics and information in general. The historical part of it, I hope, should remain a platform not only for one-sided coverage of the past, but also a place where everyone could express their point of view, not like now, where everything comes down to mutual insults. Let the professionals express their "classical" opinion, but someone of their own, but the main thing is to have a dialogue.
    Regards, idealist.
    1. +6
      April 27 2020 17: 04
      Maybe the criterion is professionalism. The points of view may be different. But the persuasiveness of the argument is different from the slogans.

      As for the leaders and thesis - what only in history was not. There were, for example, protections with negative feedback from managers.

      And here everyone has their own - like people.
      1. +1
        April 27 2020 17: 36
        Is porosofessionalism the word profession?
        1. +3
          April 27 2020 17: 42
          I will not, with your permission, analyze the origin of the word.

          Probably, these are systemic representations, and at the same time knowledge of particulars.
          There are certain laws that are dangerous to break: whether in medicine, or in construction.

          And the pursuit of cheap sensation doesn't look great.
          1. +2
            April 27 2020 17: 55
            There are certain laws that are dangerous to violate: be it in medicine or construction. I won't say about construction, but about medicine - if the "generally accepted" laws were not violated in medicine, then we would be at the level of the Middle Ages. There are no such "laws" in history. There are "generally accepted" concepts. Now, before our eyes, the history of the state and the events of the recent past are being rewritten. I do not think that anyone from the community of this site is seeking a sensation within this sub-site. The audience is small. I'm just for respecting the opinions of opponents.
            1. +1
              April 27 2020 18: 01
              Respect for opinion is a priori.
              As far as I understand, in case of any disagreement there is an opportunity to calmly oppose. Provocations are not uncommon. And they are often aggressive.

              Changing attitudes may be. But who of those who turned medicine over did not work much. Passing by is difficult to fundamentally change something.
              1. +2
                April 27 2020 18: 21
                If about medicine, I probably worked a lot. Provocations often start on the part of "professionals". I am writing about this. "go teach materiel" "fomenkovschina", a reference to the primary source, which are often the subject of discussion. If a person believes that the history of Russia is falsified, let him express himself reasonably.
                1. +2
                  April 27 2020 18: 25
                  Конечно.
                  It is unlikely that there are owners of truth in the last resort.
                  A well-reasoned argument - and it looks solid.

                  And interesting questions and discussion are remembered better.
                  Remarque wrote beautifully about how swearing is remembered.
            2. +3
              April 27 2020 18: 09
              Quote: ee2100
              Now, before our eyes, the history of the state and the events of the recent past are being rewritten.

              Who, exactly, where and when? Give examples ...
              1. +2
                April 27 2020 18: 22
                Look at the neighbors
                1. +1
                  April 27 2020 18: 35
                  Which neighbors? We seem to be talking about our history? What a strange manner to nod at foreigners right there ...
                  1. +2
                    April 27 2020 20: 47
                    Our story is inseparable from the history of foreigners
                    1. 0
                      April 27 2020 21: 59
                      Perfectly separable. Have you read my books on the history of Russia published in England? No! What is in the way? And here is the fact that we \ You are here, and they are there. So do not speak empty words to me. Read it first ...
            3. +2
              April 27 2020 18: 10
              Quote: ee2100
              I don’t think that someone from the community of this site is striving for a sensation in the framework of this sub-site.

              Find my material about the Fiume incident - for many it was a real sensation.
            4. +3
              April 27 2020 18: 11
              Quote: ee2100
              I am just for respect for the opinion of opponents.

              Yes of course. But it is pointless to argue with chronic ignoramuses, as well as respect them.
              1. +3
                April 27 2020 19: 16
                Quote: kalibr
                But it’s pointless to argue with chronic ignoramuses

                It makes sense. Of course, most ignoramus cannot be convinced of anything, but website visitors can draw their conclusions based on polemics with such a friend.
                To compete with Fomenko or anyone else in the information space, this has a very direct and practical meaning - after 10, 20 years, our children and grandchildren will not live in a society where Fomenko is taught in history at school.
                1. +1
                  April 27 2020 22: 00
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  but site visitors can draw their conclusions based on polemics with such a friend.

                  Well, that's just why sometimes it is possible. And anyway, peeing against the wind!
    2. +3
      April 27 2020 18: 08
      Quote: ee2100
      For example, that the value of the so-called The battle of the ice, modestly, is exaggerated.

      And who is arguing with this here? A series of articles was on this topic.
      1. +1
        April 27 2020 18: 47
        The battle of April 5 (12), 1242 was, but not on the lake. Described in the annals contradicts logic and common sense.
        1. +1
          April 27 2020 19: 17
          Again. Here at VO there was a whole series of articles about it ...
          1. +1
            April 27 2020 20: 38
            I know, but I have no right to my opinion?
            1. +1
              April 27 2020 22: 02
              Once again, the second already ... was a cycle. Before you have something or someone, read what people have done before you. This is normal! Then have someone you want. THEN! Explain available?
              1. 0
                April 28 2020 03: 26
                Why are you so excited by the evening - "have whoever you want"! I read, incl. your articles. No one is discussing the "strange" behavior of Prince Alexander. Everyone writes about his genitals as a strategic move - to take the knights to the lake. You doubt that the battle can be on the lake and that's it. Those. history as a science is not interested in this question. There is a certain propaganda component of this battle and this is more important than doubts. So you can be understood?
                1. +1
                  April 28 2020 07: 28
                  For the third time I am writing the same thing! Before drawing any conclusions on the basis of common sense and expressing them categorically, one should study, and comprehensively, the historiography of the issue.
                  Quote: ee2100
                  So you can understand?

                  That's how you can understand me!
                  1. 0
                    April 28 2020 08: 22
                    As far as I understand this question in your study?
                    1. 0
                      April 28 2020 09: 41
                      Alexander! The study of this issue today does not provide any basis for a single categorical statement. The only thing that is beyond doubt is that the battle was and we won. And that’s all! Everything else is from the realm of conjecture and fabrication.
                      1. 0
                        April 28 2020 15: 48
                        Therefore, on this site, there is a negative attitude towards you among some of its users. You yourself doubt the reliability of the events described, but you refuse to draw logical conclusions from the primary sources. You can't touch the sacred cow. The adherents of the "classical" interpretation of events are talking nonsense about segovitsy, ambush regiments, a strategic genius that made it possible to lure the knights onto thin ice, etc., etc. But all this is also speculation and fabrication.
                        Silent, you'll be whole!
                      2. 0
                        April 28 2020 18: 13
                        Quote: ee2100
                        The adherents of the "classical" interpretation of events are talking nonsense about segovitsy, ambush regiments, a strategic genius that made it possible to lure the knights onto thin ice, etc., etc.

                        For the fourth time I am writing - there was a cycle of my articles about this. Read. I personally never wrote about this that you do not like so much! I repeat the second time: the sources known to us do not give any reason for this. You are breaking through the open door. And the opinion of local amateurs does not interest me at all.
                      3. +1
                        April 28 2020 19: 43
                        As in the best traditions of historical discussions, "the opinion of local amateurs does not interest me" i.e. know your place!
                      4. 0
                        April 28 2020 21: 26
                        Quote: ee2100
                        know your place!

                        You two, three, and even four times you repeated the same thing. You were told that you are breaking through the open door. It remains now to repeat your own words ...
                      5. 0
                        April 28 2020 21: 29
                        I did not expect anything else from you.
                      6. 0
                        April 29 2020 06: 12
                        That's good, I do not like to disappoint people!
                      7. 0
                        April 29 2020 09: 10
                        By the evening you become irritable, rude and angry. Are you drinking
                      8. 0
                        April 29 2020 10: 01
                        I work a lot and still have to deal with .... it is not surprising that by the end of the working day my mood can go bad. A drink? What does it mean to drink? Since our people understand this, no, I don’t drink it. I don’t drink vodka at all, and home-made wine from my own summer house for lunch is almost always. The French do not sit down to dinner without wine, and nothing.
                      9. 0
                        April 29 2020 11: 44
                        And that’s good. And it’s good that you admit your irritation.
                      10. 0
                        April 29 2020 11: 56
                        When, Alexander, you will have 40 books published in the USSR, the Russian Federation, England and Germany (not counting the electronic ones), and more than 2000 articles both on websites and in magazines, again like the USSR, the Russian Federation, and many other countries, you , perhaps it will be clear how it feels to communicate with people who have to repeat the same thing two, three or more times, but they still don’t want to hear from you.
                      11. 0
                        April 29 2020 12: 05
                        This is your choice. Repeat what you don’t want to listen to. I looked at this site there are about 1300 publications. You can be proud. The audience of the site is small, but only your supporters support you. Write the flag in your hands. Only the site has less and less interesting material.
                      12. 0
                        April 29 2020 12: 26
                        Quote: ee2100
                        Only the site has less and less interesting material.

                        This is not my headache.
                      13. 0
                        April 29 2020 12: 56
                        Why? You are a member of the site’s editorial board and your position that professional historians understand history discourages those who want to publish something. Are you discussing your new publication today and is there anything sensible? More about the weather, but alcohol. Little brawl. Well, they do not forget to praise you.
                      14. 0
                        April 29 2020 13: 51
                        If you are reading my comments, you should see that I just first of all offer to everyone who wants to publish here. But with references to sources, yes, and not just "the truth was revealed to me in a transcendental manner." Want to be published in a serious scientific journal? I am ready to help here too. Here is the address for you: Free article https://www.careers.panor.ru. And what kind of "efficient discussion" do you need? People just communicate, they like it. What else is required? "Suryoz" will be in the magazine "Questions of history". And praise means they like it. Don't you like it? Write to them, not me, to them - "What, they say, are you praising?" And you will get an answer, but which one I do not know. And by the way, those who have something to say are not afraid to write. Michael, The owner of the trilobite is not a historian, but writes, and there are still such people ... So there is no need to talk about scaring.
                      15. 0
                        April 29 2020 14: 07
                        I wrote about this in the comments to this article. Our polemic is empty. I hope you understand that. A reference to one’s own publications is, at a minimum, no respect for the opinion of another. It turns out that your publication is the ultimate truth.
                      16. 0
                        April 29 2020 16: 10
                        Quote: ee2100
                        It turns out that your publication is the ultimate truth.

                        Very often - yes! Sometimes not! Once again I write, when you are given a grant by the Russian Academy of Sciences and an entire institute is checking your work, then ... we can assume that this ... today is just such a truth. The second time I write - people talk and rejoice. They have every right! Again, I write again - first have a historiography, then have your opinion. My articles, including those about the Slaughter, help to have it. Explain available?
                      17. 0
                        April 29 2020 16: 59
                        Historiography is a record. Chronicles, it seems you wrote, these are works of art based on real events. I'm not talking about a battle, but in general. If I’m not mistaken, E. Vashchenko doubted the place of the battle on 5 (12) .04.1242, counting the pressure created by the knight on horseback on spring ice. But that’s all. My opinion about the place of the battle was formed during the second reading of this passage of the chronicle. Naturally, it contradicts the generally accepted opinion. But discussions with no one, including with you, fail. We will remain with our opinion. Initially, I was interested in the Battle of Rakovors. Or rather its location.
                      18. -1
                        April 29 2020 17: 25
                        Quote: ee2100
                        Historiography is a record.

                        And you, it turns out, do not even know the simplest. You also dream of the right to your own opinion. History (from Greek historia - history and gráphõ - I write) is a scientific discipline that studies the experience of studying history in its historical retrospective. Lord, save me from those who are interested.
                      19. 0
                        April 29 2020 17: 54
                        Rejoice that you unsubscribed
    3. +5
      April 27 2020 18: 14
      Quote: ee2100
      On this sub-site, a number of articles have recently appeared with the purpose, in my opinion, to show "who is the boss"

      I disagree. Not "who is the boss," but "in response to objections." For example, this article, or rather a series of articles about Russian chronicles, came out in response to loud statements by some comrades that, they say, everything was forged. In the comments, different people indicated to them almost everything that is written in the article, but these are comments, many of them are read only by those people to whom they are addressed. And now a series of articles has been published, addressed to an indefinite circle of people. Accordingly, there will be no need to repeat.
      You are talking about a certain "circle" where "the cockerel praises the cuckoo". smile
      Firstly, admission to this club is open daily and around the clock. smile It is enough to prove yourself as a literate and cultured interlocutor and, even despite differences in views on history, you will be treated with respect and listen to your opinion. And most importantly, in this "circle" no one is ashamed to study, although many themselves have extensive knowledge in various fields, including history. There are no snobs (unless I am), there is only a rejection of stupidity, arrogance and militant illiteracy, in this, yes, the members of the "circle" are in solidarity.
      There is also no "corporate solidarity". Errors (and they happen to everyone) will be pointed out to you, it is simply done in such a form that it does not cause negativity in relation to the interlocutor, therefore it is not striking, but this is simply due to ordinary education. The attitude towards aggressive ignorant people is, of course, different.
      Personally, I advocate here that the study of history should be approached from a purely scientific point of view. And I can seriously take only those opponents who form and defend their positions precisely from this point of view. If such an opponent is a supporter of the new chronology, if he manages to stay on the scientific track defending his theories - honor to him, praise and my respect, but I'm afraid that this is impossible.
      Today one character has already stated that he will have nothing in common with our science. How do you order to treat him? To admit that he has his own "science", different from ours, and that there can be two mutually exclusive answers to one question?
      1. +3
        April 27 2020 18: 42
        Everything was laid out beautifully. But you know that in life, I'm talking about discussions on the site, everything is not so beautiful and smooth. If you are declared a "novokhronolozhtsy" probably anyone will be offended. I do not like the statements in articles about chronicles: "the chronicler saw himself" or "he himself took part." An example from my life. In the sixties, the so-called. Lenin's lessons. And so a certain comrade came to our class who said that he had seen Lenin. It could have been in time. If I now sit down to write an article about Lenin and describe in it how I communicated with eyewitnesses of revolutionary events who knew Lenin closely. Will it be true? This article correctly states that a work of literature is based on history.
        1. +3
          April 27 2020 19: 05
          Historical sources are a complicated, contradictory and multifaceted thing. At the time of the formation of historical science in Russia, chronicles were actually the only source of historical knowledge. And despite this, the first historians managed to create such a historical picture that has not undergone global changes until now, although since the time of Tatishchev, Miller and others, many historical concepts have been revised more than once. Later, other sources began to be added to the annals, now there are much more of them, related sciences are developing, one archeology provides a huge amount of material for understanding. I think about Yaroslav the Wise, his era, we now, in a sense, know more than, for example, his great-grandson Yuri Dolgoruky knew.
          So the story is not alive in chronicles. And historians have long ceased to regard what written by the chroniclers as canonical truth, checking every line, searching and finding (or not finding smile ) confirmation of each annalistic story.
          1. +3
            April 27 2020 19: 16
            There is nothing to add. Everything is correct. Unless the considerations relate to particular issues
            1. +2
              April 27 2020 19: 17
              Visit us again. smile
              1. +2
                April 27 2020 20: 43
                I. here almost every day. We are discussing with you about whether the knights from Ottepa came to the aid of the knights from Tartu, during the siege of him by Yaroslav Vsevolodovich and others. Remained in their opinion
                1. +2
                  April 27 2020 21: 40
                  Quote: ee2100
                  Remained in your opinion

                  As it usually happens.
          2. +2
            April 27 2020 20: 01
            No. I don’t believe in it. The closer the event, or person, the better you feel them. And the ancestor of the princely family. And brought up, and trained.

            We can now only guess at such a number of details that taboo was for contemporaries.
            1. +3
              April 27 2020 20: 13
              Contemporaries could only use the stories of eyewitnesses, who, as you know, "lie as eyewitnesses." smile And not necessarily consciously - just human perception is very selective, memory is variable, but the truth ... I'm not sure that, for example, I want to tell my grandchildren about myself the whole truth ... There was too much in life that should not be proud of. Yes, in addition, many with whom things worked together may not like this frankness ...
              No, I don’t trust eyewitnesses. And I do not advise anyone. Check their testimonies, verify and verify. smile
              1. +4
                April 27 2020 20: 31
                It’s too early to create a new volume of JZL.
                And chroniclers rarely write now. The chances that the forum will continue for a long time are also few.

                So only tablets remain to be trusted. And a good carver to invite.

                In general, this is a classic:

                “Only the hero’s work, but the sage’s speech
                Centuries pass without knowing the end ”(c).
                1. +3
                  April 27 2020 21: 04
                  * The time has come for the true sage to finally speak of reason.
                  Show us the word praising the mind
                  and teach people with your story * He is, Firdousi. hi
                  1. +2
                    April 27 2020 21: 11
                    "In our time, it’s more profitable to fool around, for
                    Reason today is the price of garlic ”(c).
                    1. +3
                      April 27 2020 21: 15
                      And I like something else!
                      * Everything in the world will be covered by the dust of oblivion
                      Only two know neither death nor corruption:
                      only the hero’s business and the sage’s speech. Centuries pass without knowing the end. * hi
                      1. +1
                        April 27 2020 21: 18
                        * Thinking about what lies ahead
                        The purpose of choosing a good, to her directly or *.
                      2. +1
                        April 27 2020 21: 21
                        And one does not exclude the other:

                        "From the spinning of the pottery wheel of the times
                        Sense is learned only by one who is learned and smart,
                        Or drunk, accustomed to the rotation of the world,
                        Absolutely nothing thinking in it! ” (c).
                      3. +1
                        April 27 2020 21: 26
                        Sergey, what is your opinion in the West, at the turn of the 10-11 centuries, a poet comparable to Firdousi? This is still a difficult question. hi
                      4. +1
                        April 27 2020 21: 27
                        Again, Omar Khayyam, Nizami.
                      5. +1
                        April 27 2020 21: 59
                        Different genres.

                        But I highlight Khayyam, Firdousi and Jalaletdin Rumi.
                      6. +1
                        April 27 2020 22: 01
                        Although, Rumi, of course, is the XNUMXth century.
  19. +1
    April 28 2020 09: 46
    Thank! Very nice article.
  20. 0
    19 June 2023 10: 40
    Parchment has unique structural properties that distinguish it from paper-based materials. As a rule, parchment is resistant to mechanical damage such as tearing or wrinkling, although it is easily damaged by mold and high temperatures. Parchment is also highly hygroscopic in nature, which means that changes in relative humidity can cause irreversible changes in its structural composition.
    I wonder how the annals on parchment were preserved then?