Russian annals: from appearance to content


View of the Ipatiev Monastery in Kostroma. Photo: A. Savin (Wikimedia Commons)


Learn my son: science cuts
We have the experiences of a fast-moving life -
Someday, and soon, maybe
All areas that you are now
Portrayed so cunningly on paper,
All will be yours
Learn, my son, both easier and clearer
Sovereign labor you will comprehend.
A.S. Pushkin. Boris Godunov


You can become a communist only when you enrich your memory with knowledge of all the wealth that humanity has developed.
“Tasks of Youth Unions” (text of a speech by V. I. Lenin at the III Congress of the Komsomol on October 2, 1920)


Historical science against pseudoscience. This is the third material devoted to ancient Russian chronicles. It will talk about how some of them look, since huge numbers of people will never get to their storage places, as well as about the contents. Indeed, some readers of VO believe that this all lies somewhere, no one translates old texts into the new Russian language, does not study authenticity, doesn’t analyze linguistic types, and only Professor Petukhov alone makes all discoveries in this area and does. Therefore, we will begin, perhaps, with the Manuscripts Department of the Russian National Library, where, together with other valuable manuscripts of our ancestors, the chronicle, called Lavrentievskaya, is also stored. And she was named after the person who rewrote it in 1377, and at the end, on the very last page, left such an interesting autograph: “Az (I) is a thin, unworthy and many-sinful servant of God Laurentius of mine (monk)” .

Russian annals: from appearance to content
Page of the Laurentian Chronicle, turnover 81 sheets. Contains part of the teachings of Vladimir Monomakh with a description of his military campaigns, 1377. Source: website of the Russian National Library

To begin with, this manuscript is written on a “charter”, or, as this material was also called, “veal,” that is, parchment, or specially made calfskin. They read it a lot, since it is clear that its sheets not only dilapidated, but also numerous traces of drops of wax from candles are visible on the pages. That is, in its six hundredth century, this book has seen a lot.

The Ipatiev Chronicle is kept in the Manuscript Department of the Library of the Academy of Sciences in St. Petersburg. She came here in the XVIII century from the Ipatiev Monastery, which is located near Kostroma. It belongs to the XIV century and looks very solid: the cover is wooden, covered with dark leather. It is believed that it was written in four (five!) Different handwritings, that is, several people wrote it. The text goes in two columns, written in black ink, but the capital letters are written in cinnabar. The second sheet of the manuscript is all written in cinnabar and is therefore especially beautiful. The capital letters on it, on the contrary, are made in black ink. Obviously, the scribes who worked on him were proud of their work. “The Russian chronicler repairing with God. Good Father, ”one of the scribes wrote before the text.

As for the oldest list of Russian annals, it is also made on parchment in the XIV century. This is the Synodal list of the Novgorod First Annals, which is stored in the State Historical Museum, that is, the Historical Museum in Moscow. It was just that before he was in the Moscow Synodal Library, and now she was named after her name.

A very interesting monument of the past is, of course, the famous illustrated Radzivilovskaya, or Konigsberg, chronicle, because there are so many color illustrations in it. It was named so because for some time it was in the possession of the Radziwills, and they call it Konigsberg because Peter the Great found it in Koenigsberg. It is located in the Library of the Academy of Sciences in St. Petersburg. For some reason, it is she who causes suspicions, so to speak, of her “insolvency”, because, they say, the bad Radziwills just faked her. But it was written at the end of the XNUMXth century, and not just anywhere, but ... in Smolensk. It was written in half-mouth, that is, the handwriting is somewhat faster and simpler than a much more solemn and thorough charter, although this font is also very beautiful.

But the main thing is the miniatures of the Radzivilov annals, of which 617! Just think: 617 drawings are made in color, and all colors are bright, very cheerful and well illustrate what is written in the text. and troops marching under fluttering banners, and pictures of battles, sieges - in short, war in all its then forms. We see the princes seated on the “tables” that served them as a throne, and foreign ambassadors with letters in their hands. Bridges, fortress towers, and walls, "logs" - dungeons, "vezhs" - these were the names of nomad wagons in Russia. According to the drawings of the Radzivilov Chronicle, we can clearly imagine all this. The same can be said about weapon and armor, there are not many, but just a lot. And all the drawings are combined with the text. And the conclusion: such a number of figures, coupled with the text, is fake physically impossible. And most importantly, such a fake would not make sense, since it would be easily established by cross-comparison with other texts, and errors in illustrations - by archeological data. Wherever you throw, everywhere a wedge! Or do you fake one to one, they say, they found another list previously unknown and want to sell it for a lot of money (there is still at least some hope that they will not get it, although it’s very weak), or we’ll make changes there, and here we are exposes the first specialist! That is, in any case, the money spent will not pay off. Only 617 miniatures ... well ... 500000 p. for each + text ... expensive comes out pleasure, right? And most importantly, why?


Radzivilovsky Chronicle. A miniature depicting the battle of the regiments of Mstislav Romanovich and Vasilk Volodarevich Minsky; the capture of Mstislav Vasilkom, 1197. Description of the event in miniature in the text of the annals: “in the summer of 6705. ... The same winter ambassador Davyd is Smolensk his son Mstislav, matchmaker of Grand Duke Vsevolod, to help his son-in-law to Vitbesk, and I will defeat Vasilko from Chernigovtsi , and Mstislav, matchmaker of the prince, taking and bringing him to Chernigov "

These are the most ancient lists of Russian annals. By the way, they are called “lists” because they were “written off” from much more ancient manuscripts that did not reach us.

The texts of any chronicle were written according to the weather, so the entries in them usually begin like this: “In the summer, such-and-such (that is, a year) speed this-or-such ... or don't speed anything, or don't speed nothing,” and then goes a description of what happened. The chronicle was “from the creation of the world”, that is, to translate that date into a modern chronology, you need to subtract either 5508 or 5507 from the chronicle date. Some messages were very short: “In the summer of 6741 (1230) the church was signed (painted) the Holy Mother of God in Suzdal and paved with diverse marble "," In the summer of 6398 (1390) there was a pestilence in Pskov, as it was (like) never; where they dug more than one, put five and ten in a row ”,“ In the summer of 6726 (1218) silence is quick ”. When there were many events, the chronicler used the following expression: "that same summer" or "that same summer."

A text that refers to one year is called an article. Articles in the text are in a row, they are highlighted only by a red line. The headings were given only to particularly significant texts dedicated, for example, to Alexander Nevsky, the Pskov prince Dovmont, the Battle of Kulikovo and a number of other important events.

But it is wrong to think that the chronicles were kept exactly that way, that is, records were made year after year. In fact, chronicles are the most complicated literary works devoted to Russian history. The fact is that their authors-chroniclers were simultaneously monks, that is, they served the Lord, and publicists, and historians. Yes, they kept weather records of what the witnesses were, inserted instructive additions to the records of their predecessors, which they learned from the same Bible, the lives of saints and other sources. And so they got a “vault”: a complex “mix” of biblical motifs, edifications, direct instructions of a bishop or prince standing above the chronicler, and his personal attitude. Only highly qualified specialists can analyze the chronicles, otherwise you can easily go after that to search for the grave of Svyatopolk the Cursed on the Polish-Czech border.


Radzivilovsky Chronicle. The Polovtsians withdrew part of the Russian population into captivity, 1093. Description of the event in miniature in the text of the annals: “... and the people of division and vedzha, in the honor of their compassion and relative. Many kind of Christian ... "

As an example, consider the message of the Ipatiev Chronicle about how Prince Izyaslav Mstislavich fought with Yuri Dolgoruky for reigning in Kiev in 1151. Three princes appear in it: Izyaslav, Yuri and Andrei Bogolyubsky. And each had his own chronicler, and the chronicler of Izyaslav Mstislavich openly admires the mind and its military cunning; Yuri the chronicler described in detail how Yuri launched his boat bypassing through Dolobskoe Lake; Well, the chronicler Andrei Bogolyubsky extols the valor of his prince.

And then after 1151 they all died and the annals devoted to them fell into the hands of the chronicler of the next Kiev prince, for whom they no longer represented personal interest, because they had become a distant past. And he combined all three of these stories in his body. And the message came out full and bright. And cross-referencing is easy to check where it came from.

How do researchers manage to extract older texts from later annals? The fact is that the attitude towards literacy at that time was very respectful. The written text had a certain sacred meaning, not without reason there was a saying: written with a pen - you can’t cut it with an ax. That is, scribes of ancient books with great respect for the works of their predecessors, since for them it was a “document”, the truth before the Lord God. Therefore, they did not redo the texts they received for rewriting the chronicles, but merely selected events of interest to them. That is why the news of the XI-XIV centuries remained almost unchanged in the later lists. That allows them to compare and highlight.

In addition, the chroniclers indicated the sources of information: “When I came to Ladoga, Ladoga told me ...”, “Behold, I heard from a seer.” Such postscripts are found constantly in texts. It was also customary to indicate: "A se from another chronicler" or "A se from another, old." For example, in the Pskov annals, which tells about the campaign of the Slavs against the Greeks, the chronicler wrote in the margin: "This is written in the miracles of Stefan of Sourozh." Some chroniclers participated in princely councils, were at the veche, and even fought with the enemies “beside the stapes” of their prince, that is, went on campaigns with him, were eyewitnesses, and direct participants in the sieges of cities, and most often, even having left the world, occupied a high position in society. Moreover, the princes themselves, their princesses, prince warriors, boyars, bishops, and abbots participated in the annals. Although among them were simple monks and humble priests of the most ordinary parish churches.


Radzivilovsky Chronicle. The construction of the city of Belgorod at the behest of Vladimir Svyatoslavich, 990. Description of the event in miniature in the text of the annals: “In the summer of 6498. Lay Belgorod and cut it from other cities, and many people introduce stench. Be bo loving this city "

And do not think that the annals were written “objectively”. On the contrary, whoever “saw”, he wrote like that, remembering, however, that God for a lie, let alone a written one, “a document, by the way,” will be doubly punished. The conflict of interest in the annals is again very clearly seen. Chronicles also told about the merits of the same princes, but they also accused them of violating rights and laws. That is, not everything and then (as now!) Was bought for money and by force of coercion!

PS Recommended article for additional reading: Schukina T.V., Mikhailova A.N., Sevostyanova L.A. Russian annals: features and problems of study // Young Scientist. 2016. No2. S. 940-943.

To be continued ...
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  1. Free wind April 27 2020 06: 59 New
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    Hello. I don’t really trust all these manuscripts-censuses. First of all, they describe what the next ruler or church needs. write an essay on three annals, destroy the originals. Thank you, I look forward to continuing.
    1. VicktorVR April 27 2020 07: 20 New
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      Maybe that's why it is interesting? Understand someone’s interests. If there is anything to compare.
    2. kalibr April 27 2020 07: 54 New
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      Alexander! Continuation will be required.
    3. Bar1 April 27 2020 09: 14 New
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      To begin with, this manuscript is written on a “charter”, or, as this material was also called, “veal,” that is, parchment, or specially made calfskin


      Well then, not the "charter", but on the map in Russian.

      And this is called a "description of the annals"? As it’s quite a bit, about the Lavrentievsky Chronicle it would be necessary to say that this document itself appeared in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, and before that time no one had heard anything about it.
      In content, it’s quite sparingly, almost nothing. The chronicle describes events from 898g-1283g.

      The Ipatiev Chronicle is kept in the Manuscript Department of the Library of the Academy of Sciences in St. Petersburg. She got here in the XVIII century from the Ipatiev Monastery, which is located near Kostroma


      The Ipatiev Chronicle was found in the library of the Academy of Sciences by that very court historiographer who wrote this story to us -Karamzin and it was already in the 19th century.
      It is divided into several lists, the main Khlebnikovsky and Pogodinsky.
      The list was compiled in the Kiev Pechersk Monastery under the direct supervision of Metropolitan Pyotr Mohyla, whose autographic notes from 1637 have been preserved on the margins of the manuscript.

      https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Пётр_Могила
      and who was this Peter Grave? It was the Metropolitan of Kiev, a pupil of the Polish Chancellor
      Stanislav Zholkevsky and Hetman Khodkevich, who organized the Polish invasion of Russia on Moscow. This is what the doctor of historical sciences Pyzhikov says. This type, this document, the Ipatiev Chronicle was created, as if by Goebels and Himler, and now it is the main historical for our academic science document and guide to action.



      Well, according to the Rdzivilovsky chronicle, it is best to read the study of Fomenko and Nosovsky, who clearly and unequivocally found fake sheets that concerned the actual arrival of the Varangians in Russia and modern chronology.

      These are our "main historical documents" or frank enemies or just fakes wrote to us.
      1. Undecim April 27 2020 10: 22 New
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        Well then, not the "charter", but on the map in Russian.
        Another demonstration of militant ignorance.
        1. Bar1 April 27 2020 10: 53 New
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          Quote: Undecim
          Well then, not the "charter", but on the map in Russian.
          Another demonstration of militant ignorance.


          another slavish imitation of a Westernized historical interpretation.
          note written
          -charter, but the charter is read, how to understand this? But no way.
          It is clear that this charter / charter is a derivative of the Russian map.
          1. Bar1 April 27 2020 11: 18 New
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            You can give examples of such a correct translation into Russian.
            For example, the Caspian Sea in the 18th century was called the Khvalynsk Sea, it is in Russian, so they wrote, and on old foreign maps they wrote not with _x_, but with _y_ i.e. The Galensky Sea or the Galsky Sea, this is how linguists hid the truth. They will first translate from Russian into non-Russian, then vice versa, the word is distorted, and with it the meaning, they write history.
            For this, all these languages ​​/ peoples were created.
          2. Undecim April 27 2020 11: 42 New
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            Bar, you are an ignoramus. This is a page from the book "Complete Church Slavonic Dictionary", which was compiled by a clergyman of the Russian Orthodox Church, archpriest, theologian Grigory Mikhailovich Dyachenko. This is the result of his many years of work. And the fact that you are not even thinking, trying to cheat on an unknown person, speaks not only of ignorance, but also of stupidity.
            1. Bar1 April 27 2020 12: 16 New
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              Quote: Undecim
              Bar, you are an ignoramus. This is a page from the book "Complete Church Slavonic Dictionary", which was compiled by a clergyman of the Russian Orthodox Church, archpriest, theologian Grigory Mikhailovich Dyachenko. This is the result of his many years of work. And the fact that you are not even thinking, trying to cheat on an unknown person, speaks not only of ignorance, but also of stupidity.

              you are eleven just a slave lamp. Like a parrot settled the same thing, and how a parrot lives in his cage, and even if you open the door, then such a parrot like you will not leave it, because the strength of the habit i.e. cowardice and unhealthy reflexes. Well, and sit further in your soy cage.
              And I have nothing to do with your “science”; your science is hostile to both the Russian people and common sense, eleven.
              1. Undecim April 27 2020 12: 32 New
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                Bar, and when did the Russian people authorize you to speak on his behalf? Or is imposture coupled with megalomania also inherent in you, along with ignorance? And how can you confirm that you have common sense?
                The fact that you are twisting here, it does not attract the thoughts of the entire Russian people. Like you on the role of the tribune of the people. You need to be more modest.
                1. Bar1 April 27 2020 12: 50 New
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                  and I am a Russian man, I was born in the USSR, I lived to old age and see what the Russian people are in trouble with. And above all, it’s a FALSE HISTORY of which you are an adherent.
                  Your propaganda tricks are constantly lying and dodging, splitting the whole into atoms and then not seeing much to consider the facts under a microscope, looking for inconsistencies - this is called "historical science", and a direct lie when what is written in old texts is read in its own way - this is called linguistics .
                  Your particular specialty is a goose i.e. parrot - repeat what is written by others without deviating from their own thoughts eleven.
                  1. Undecim April 27 2020 13: 08 New
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                    not deviating to your own thoughts
                    The presence of one’s own thoughts is not proof of the presence of logical content in them, but deviant behavior in the vast majority of cases does not at all indicate hyper-abilities, which you clearly demonstrate.
                    I see the troubles of the Russian people. Well, right, Vladimir Ilyich! True grammar is lame, but what pathos! Directly to the armored car - and to Finlyadsky station!
                    1. Bar1 April 27 2020 13: 25 New
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                      Quote: Undecim
                      Having your own thoughts is not proof of their logical content,

                      funny, so you let it slip, the fact that for other unidirectional there is a special case in your case is your political credo.
                      In general, the presence of one’s own thoughts is an opportunity to show one’s logical thinking. Can a person logically express not his thoughts? Yes, maybe, but then it's still not a man, but a parrot.

                      I graduated from the Soviet Higher Technical School, where we were taught that the main and first quality of intelligence / engineer is to CREATE i.e. create your own.
                      Well, many years of communication with your brother, with humanities allow us to say that, for example, historians and linguists are taught, first of all, DO NOT DECLINE from what other people have already created, follow the course, keep up and keep up with the spirit, and that’s exactly what you call “literacy”, but of course it’s not called that.
                      1. Undecim April 27 2020 13: 41 New
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                        Well, for many years of communication with your brother, with the humanities
                        Bar, at least sometimes you try not to generate a stream of thoughts, namely to think, otherwise this stream will suck you.
                        I finished, like you, the Soviet Higher Technical School, where I was taught the same thing as you.
                        Therefore, I well understand the difference between building and creating your own. Creation should not be for the sake of creation, what you are successfully doing, and at the same time put your own assessment - I have erected a monument for myself! Self-esteem is a necessary thing, but it should not go into self-praise.
                        It would be interesting to know what you created as an engineer. Share, if not a secret.
                      2. Bar1 April 27 2020 14: 02 New
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                        Quote: Undecim
                        Well, for many years of communication with your brother, with the humanities
                        Bar, at least sometimes you try not to generate a stream of thoughts, namely to think, otherwise this stream will suck you.
                        I finished, like you, the Soviet Higher Technical School, where I was taught the same thing as you.
                        Therefore, I well understand the difference between building and creating your own. Creation should not be for the sake of creation, what you are successfully doing, and at the same time put your own assessment - I have erected a monument for myself! Self-esteem is a necessary thing, but it should not go into self-praise.
                        It would be interesting to know what you created as an engineer. Share, if not a secret.


                        and I never deal with unreasonable gag, all my observations and remarks always have something in common with the works of other people, historians and experts, and always give links.

                        As for the work on the profile, then in our world of Putin's capitalism, when 10 thousand were closed. factories and hundreds of institutes and design bureaus to realize themselves now is not easy. Now there is no demand for their own specialists.
                        -It was aircraft manufacturing, now it’s not aircraft manufacturing
                        -was your car industry, now a foreign car industry.
                        - there was a machine tool industry, now there is no machine tool industry
                        -was own electronics, now there is no electronics
                        but now there are 200 billionaire friends of Putin, and before there were no billionaires all the money flowed into the national economy, and not over the hill.
                      3. Undecim April 27 2020 14: 17 New
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                        all my observations and remarks always have something in common with the works of other people of historians and experts and always give links.
                        You will excuse me, but some of the individuals you refer to are “historians and specialists” only in your imagination, and some who are truly historians would be very surprised if they could familiarize themselves with the conclusions that you have drawn from their thoughts.
                        And why do you avoid answering my question about achievements as an engineer, referring to Putin's capitalism? If you studied in the USSR, then how could Putin's capitalism prevent you from building up?
                      4. Bar1 April 27 2020 14: 38 New
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                        Quote: Undecim
                        all my observations and remarks always have something in common with the works of other people of historians and experts and always give links.
                        You will excuse me, but some of the individuals you refer to are “historians and specialists” only in your imagination, and some who are truly historians would be very surprised if they could familiarize themselves with the conclusions that you have drawn from their thoughts.
                        And why do you avoid answering my question about achievements as an engineer, referring to Putin's capitalism? If you studied in the USSR, then how could Putin's capitalism prevent you from building up?

                        specifically, what is wrong there?
                      5. Undecim April 27 2020 14: 43 New
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                        Specifically, you said that you were taught to build in the Soviet Technical University.
                        I asked what successes you have achieved in this field. And you answer me-about Putin's capitalism. I am at a loss - how could this kind of capitalism reach out to the USSR and prevent your realization as a creator? Make it clear if possible.
                      6. Bar1 April 27 2020 14: 50 New
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                        Quote: Undecim
                        Specifically, you said that you were taught to build in the Soviet Technical University.
                        I asked what successes you have achieved in this field. And you answer me-about Putin's capitalism. I am at a loss - how could this kind of capitalism reach out to the USSR and prevent your realization as a creator? Make it clear if possible.

                        you show an unhealthy interest off-topic, I won’t answer you, please speak on the subject.
                      7. Undecim April 27 2020 15: 27 New
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                        Well, not for long the music played ...
                        As it came to creation, so are you in the bushes. This is suspicious, suggestive of the fact that with creativity you have not worked out.
                        Well, okay, you don’t want to, it’s your business.
                        And on the matter with you everything is clear, what can I say there.
                      8. Bar1 April 27 2020 16: 34 New
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                        Quote: Undecim
                        Well, not for long the music played ...
                        As it came to creation, so are you in the bushes. This is suspicious, suggestive of the fact that with creativity you have not worked out.
                        Well, okay, you don’t want to, it’s your business.
                        And on the matter with you everything is clear, what can I say there.

                        in the bushes then you, on the topic do not want to talk, just to chat ...
                      9. Undecim April 27 2020 16: 39 New
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                        On the subject of history as applied to you, I have long ago unequivocally expressed myself - you are a militant ignoramus. I see no reason to change my point of view. Judging by the fact that you too quickly slipped off the question of creation, there you also have nothing to be particularly proud of. So all the best to you, see you soon.
                      10. Bar1 April 27 2020 19: 04 New
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                        Well, you are a parrot-talker.
                      11. Bar1 April 27 2020 19: 15 New
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                        there was such a fairy tale as the Kingdom of crooked mirrors was for you, everyone lied there, right, like here, and the king was a Parrot, that is, Yagupop 11. laughing
      2. Heathen April 27 2020 16: 02 New
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        Oh, and where, interestingly, new planes, rocket engines, cars, etc., which are delivered including abroad, come from? Or you can source, which lists all those 10000 plants and design bureaus, personally closed by Putin. And why do the data from hh.ru contradict your words about the uselessness of qualified specialists in the field of production?
      3. Bar1 April 27 2020 16: 35 New
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        Quote: Heathen
        from where, interestingly take new planes, rocket engines, cars, etc., which are delivered including for rubles

        what new planes / cars? at least say something.
      4. The comment was deleted.
      5. Mordvin 3 19 May 2020 13: 36 New
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        Quote: Heathen
        By car, too, throw a link or find yourself?

        Throw, though I’ll scream a little.
  2. Bar1 April 27 2020 16: 39 New
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    Quote: Heathen
    All those 10000 factories and design bureaus that Putin personally closed were listed.


    from large factories.

    Here is the list:



    Moskvich Plant (AZLK) (genus 1930 - killed by 2002)

    Factory "Red Proletariat" (genus 1857 - killed 2010)

    Uralvagonzavod (born 1936 - killed in 2018)

    Izhevsk Motorcycle Plant (genus 1928 - killed by 2009)

    Irbit Motorcycle Plant (Ural) (genus 1941 - present in a coma after being wounded)

    Pavlovsk Tool Plant (genus 1820 - killed by 2011)

    Factory "Record" (genus 1957 - killed 1996)

    Lipetsk Tractor Plant (genus 1943 - killed by 2009)

    Altai Tractor Plant (Rubtsovsk) (genus 1942 - killed by 2010)

    Shipyard Avangard (Petrozavodsk) (genus 1939 - killed by 2010)

    Shipyard OJSC "HC Dalzavod" (Vladivostok) (genus 1895 - killed 2009)

    Radio plant PO Vega (Berdsk, Novosibirsk region) (genus 1946 - killed 1999)

    Saratov Aviation Plant (genus 1931– killed by 2010)

    Omsk Transport Engineering Plant (genus 1896 - killed by 2009)

    Chelyabinsk watch factory "Lightning" (genus 1947 - killed 2009)

    Uglich watch factory "The Seagull" (genus 1938 - killed by 2009)

    Penza watch factory "Dawn" (genus 1935 - killed 1999)

    The second Moscow watch factory “Glory” (genus 1924 - killed by 2006)

    Chistopol watch factory “Vostok” (genus 1941– killed by 2010)

    Moscow Machine-Tool Plant named after Sergo Ordzhonikidze (genus 1932 - killed by 2007)

    Stankomash Plant (Chelyabinsk) (genus 1935 - killed by 2009)

    Ryazan Machine Tool Plant (genus 1949 - killed by 2008)

    Kronstadt Marine Plant (genus 1858 - killed by 2005)

    Kuzbasselement Plant (genus 1942 - killed by 2008)

    Irkutsk Radio Plant (genus 1945 - killed by 2007)

    Precision casting plant “Centrolit” (Lipetsk) (genus 1963 - killed by 2009)

    Khor Biochem plant (Khabarovsk Territory) (genus 1982 - killed by 1997)

    Tomsk Instrument Plant (genus 1961 - killed by 2007)

    Sivinit Plant (Krasnoyarsk) (genus 1970 - killed by 2004)

    Krasnoyarsk TV Factory (genus 1952 - killed by 2003)

    Dynamo Plant (Moscow) (genus 1897 - killed by 2009)

    Oryol plant managing computers named. K.N. Rudneva (genus 1968 - killed 2006)

    Orenburg Hardware Plant (genus 1943 - killed by 2009)

    Khabarovsk plant "EVGO" (genus 2000 - killed 2009)

    Ulyanovsk Radio Tube Plant (genus 1959 - killed by 2003)

    Plant them. Kozitsky (St. Petersburg) (genus 1853 - present in a coma after being wounded)

    Sibelektrostal Plant (Krasnoyarsk) (genus 1952 - killed by 2008)

    Orenburg silk fabric factory “Orenburg Textile” (genus 1972 - killed by 2004)

    Barysh factory them. Gladysheva (Ulyanovsk Region) (genus 1825 - killed by 2005)

    Flax Association them. I.D. Zvorykina (Kostroma) (genus 1939 - killed by 2011)

    Kamyshinsky cotton mill them. Kosygina (Volgograd Region) (genus 1955 - present in a coma after being wounded)

    Trekhgornaya manufactory (Moscow) (genus 1799 - present in a coma after being wounded)

    Far Eastern Radio Plant (Komsomolsk-on-Amur) (genus 1993 - killed by 2009)

    Bicycle plant (Yoshkar-Ola) (genus 1950 - killed 2006)

    Bicycle plant (Nizhny Novgorod) (genus 1940 - killed 2007)

    Perm Bicycle Plant (genus 1939 - killed by 2006)

    Proletarian Plant (St. Petersburg) (genus 1826 - present in a coma after being wounded)

    Baltic Plant (genus 1856 - killed by 2011)

    Sibtyazhmash Plant (Krasnoyarsk) (genus 1941 - killed by 2011)

    Khimprom Plant (Volgograd) (genus 1931 - killed by 2010)

    Irkutsk driveshaft plant (genus 1974 - killed by 2004)

    Tchaikovsky precision engineering plant (Perm Territory) (genus 1978 - killed by 1998)

    Izhmash Plant (Izhevsk) (genus 1807 - killed by 2012)

    The Ural Heavy Engineering Plant UZTM Uralmash is finishing off ...

    .


    https://topwar.ru/30555-spisok-unichtozhennyh-naibolee-krupnyh-i-vysokotehnologichnyh-predpriyatiy.html
  3. Fat
    Fat April 27 2020 19: 26 New
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    Interestingly, have you checked at least one case? As for Izhevsk, then ALL of your data, to put it mildly, is "crap"
  4. Bar1 April 27 2020 20: 36 New
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    Quote: Thick
    Interestingly, have you checked at least one case? As for Izhevsk, then ALL of your data, to put it mildly, is "crap"


    what you say is messy.
  5. Fat
    Fat April 27 2020 20: 57 New
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    Quote: Bar1
    Quote: Thick
    Interestingly, have you checked at least one case? As for Izhevsk, then ALL of your data, to put it mildly, is "crap"


    what you say is messy.

    Clear. You live in Izhevsk and lost your job due to the retirement of the company from the list of living ....)))
    Tell me how many enterprises producing prespapier died would be wonderful.)))
  6. Heathen 19 May 2020 13: 37 New
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    Why so leave the answer? I asked a specific question. Who specifically killed? Personally, Putin? Or, after all, “effective owners” who squeezed these plants in the 90s?
  • The comment was deleted.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Catfish April 27 2020 17: 00 New
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    Good afternoon, Vic Nikolaitch. smile
    Since I, like our friend Seryoga, am also swimming in this subject, I simply allow myself to visually comment on your statement regarding the "comrade" Bar. drinks
  • 3x3zsave April 27 2020 18: 01 New
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    Directly to the armored car - and to Finlyadsky station!
    For what?!?!?!? crying
  • kalibr April 27 2020 12: 44 New
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    Quote: Bar1
    like the Russian people

    Such a "Russian people" just need to put one piece on a brick, and beat another. To stop the spread of the idiocy virus.
    1. Bar1 April 27 2020 12: 51 New
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      Quote: kalibr
      Such a "Russian people" just need to put one piece on a brick, and beat another. To stop the spread of the idiocy virus.


      is this a response from the Jewish people?
      1. Pane Kohanku April 27 2020 13: 10 New
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        is this a response from the Jewish people?

        Shaw, is Shpakovsky a Jew? belay oh wei, oh wei, who did this ... So our people are everywhere! wink
      2. kalibr April 27 2020 13: 39 New
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        Is my surname oppressing you? Do not! I change my surname like gloves. But I have one attitude to all peoples: that he is Jewish, that Russian, that American - if only not (then the word is common, common, but forbidden in VO).
        1. Pane Kohanku April 27 2020 14: 17 New
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          Is my surname oppressing you?

          You just need to compile a dictionary of epithets that Bar1 (Timur) rewards others:
          as usual it’s a lie, from trilobite ...

          1. Michael is a Russophobe-trilobite. You can simply trilobite.
          is this a response from the Jewish people?

          2. V.O. Shpakovsky - the defendant on behalf of the Jewish people.
          you are eleven just a slave lamp. How a parrot settled the same thing

          3. Victor Nikolaevich - just a slave to the lamp, his speech is like a parrot! (Homer).
          We write further? laughing is there still a bar “not stroked”?drinks come on! wink
          1. kalibr April 27 2020 15: 38 New
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            Quote: Pan Kohanku
            IN. Shpakovsky - the defendant on behalf of the Jewish people.

            You noticed it well. And also Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian ... oh-Mother of God!
          2. Pane Kohanku April 27 2020 15: 51 New
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            And also Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian ... oh-Mother of God!

            Oh, the bosom womb! belay How many genetic flaws do you have, Vyacheslav Olegovich! as soon as you manage? Only Michael has more - he is generally Russophobe with help. yes
            He still doesn’t know about my flaws, my Chuvash relatives probably give me every right to consider myself Great Mughal Tartaram. fellow
          3. 3x3zsave April 27 2020 18: 15 New
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            "Mongolia will be dreaming for a long time" laughing
          4. Pane Kohanku April 27 2020 18: 18 New
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            "Mongolia will be dreaming for a long time"

            Cuba is far, Cuba is far ..
            Cuba is nearby, Cuba is nearby!
            drinks
          5. 3x3zsave April 27 2020 18: 26 New
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            "And in my shoes there is still Cuban sand,
            They don’t know how sweet the snow can be "(C)
  • Catfish April 27 2020 17: 54 New
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    Yeah, you still forgot two notorious racists: the hunter Anton and the vile Cat. laughing
  • Pane Kohanku April 27 2020 18: 00 New
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    Yeah, you still forgot two notorious racists: the hunter Anton and the vile Cat.

    oh .. yes, I forgot something. The entertainers are still those! If earlier there was the concept of a "hussar with a motor", now we can say - "an entertainer with an ATV." good drinks
  • Catfish April 27 2020 18: 19 New
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    We have a quiet village life here, a pastoral, so to speak, without any undertakings. smile
  • 3x3zsave April 27 2020 18: 54 New
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    And they are such jesters ... They are the first to joke, and the first to suffer.
    "(Tsar) -And here's someone to raise to the block?
    (Chancellor) - Of course, Agent Netanyahu!
    (Tsar) - And what, the people?
    (Chancellor) - The people of the minimum wage and a sandwich! "
  • 3x3zsave April 27 2020 18: 29 New
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    Is that something I'm a hunter? Have I ever expressed a consumer attitude towards the opposite sex ????
  • Catfish April 27 2020 19: 13 New
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    No, I didn’t express it, but I probably thought about it. laughing
  • 3x3zsave April 27 2020 19: 25 New
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    No, uncle Kostya. But this is a personal tragedy.
  • Catfish April 27 2020 19: 30 New
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    So what's the problem... ?
  • 3x3zsave April 27 2020 19: 34 New
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    Uncle Kostya, do you want me to pour out my soul to the whole forum? Fire!
  • Catfish April 27 2020 19: 53 New
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    No, of course, Anton. Just wanted to cheer you up a bit. smile drinks
  • 3x3zsave April 27 2020 20: 10 New
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    Consider cheering. drinks
  • Catfish April 27 2020 20: 38 New
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    That's good. smile drinks
  • Ryazan87 April 27 2020 19: 41 New
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    Trilobites to the Russian people have been dirty since the Cambrian period. In advance, tentacles wrote the annals. Well i.e. not in advance, all of your Paleozoic fake. Nosovsky and Fomenko will not be allowed to lie.
  • Krasnodar April 27 2020 15: 46 New
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    Quote: kalibr
    Is my surname oppressing you? Do not! I change my surname like gloves. But I have one attitude to all peoples: that he is Jewish, that Russian, that American - if only not (then the word is common, common, but forbidden in VO).

    Bar is also a more Jewish surname, in Hebrew means wild, in army - son (Bar Kokhba - the leader of the anti-Roman uprising of the 2nd century AD - Son of the Star). Bar 1 - make aliyah, return to the Land of Ancestors, the Land of Zion and Jerusalem - we will together with Shpakovsky make plans for the next vile blow from around the corner to the fraternal patriots of the land of the Russian people of Syria, sitting in brazenly captured from the Palestinians Tel Aviv region fellow
    1. kalibr April 27 2020 15: 56 New
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      Quote: Krasnodar
      we will be together with Shpakovsky

      It’s better I’m alone ... I'm afraid of stuttering (a common word, but VO is forbidden!)
    2. Krasnodar April 27 2020 16: 08 New
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      Yes, even hint - what is the word?
      Those who rainbow ride on pink unicorns or are distinguished by outstanding intellectual abilities?
    3. kalibr April 27 2020 16: 35 New
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      Quote: Krasnodar
      distinguished by outstanding intellectual abilities?

      Of course it is. The simpler the better!
    4. Pane Kohanku April 27 2020 17: 02 New
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      Those who rainbow ride on pink unicorns

      a cerebral, and even a little psychedelic picture looms ... wassat (behind the scenes plays Jefferson Airplane, "Somebody to love") wink
      or distinguished by outstanding intellectual abilities

      spring, you know .. vitamin deficiency .. there are all kinds of exacerbations ... request
    5. Krasnodar April 27 2020 17: 04 New
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      "Somebody to love"
      Rather, I will survive Gloria Geiner.
    6. Pane Kohanku April 27 2020 17: 09 New
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      Rather, I will survive Gloria Geiner.

      Subtle, Albert, subtle! laughing good
      Bar is also a more Jewish surname

      With that name, I only remember Bar Rafaeli. wink (Do not show the Sea Cat! Otherwise, the topic will be developed in such a way that we will not let it go with all the kagal in front of our wife!) drinks
    7. Krasnodar April 27 2020 17: 17 New
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      The most famous in the modern world is Bar Aba (literally - the son of his father, allegorically - the son of his father), better known as Barabbas - according to Greek transcription. he, according to the New Testament, was pardoned instead of Christ.
    8. Pane Kohanku April 27 2020 17: 25 New
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      better known as Barabbas - by Greek transcription. he, according to the New Testament, was pardoned instead of Christ.

      Yes, I remember him. yes
    9. 3x3zsave April 27 2020 20: 36 New
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      I never imagined that the "legend of Captain Mikhailov" has biblical roots laughing
  • Trilobite Master April 27 2020 19: 40 New
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    Quote: Krasnodar
    The most famous in the modern world - Bar Aba

    I don’t know, I haven’t ... The Volna bar I know, the Citrus bar, the Mamed bar, there is also a bar on the second floor of our shopping center, it really has no name. Bar "Aba" I do not know. laughing
  • Krasnodar April 27 2020 19: 45 New
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    And there is also Bar Mitzvah fellow drinks
  • 3x3zsave April 27 2020 20: 40 New
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    There is also a "Kilmanda Tortilla Bar". Our icon-Tatar institution!
  • Catfish April 27 2020 17: 29 New
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    Late, the bird flew out. laughing

    Do not worry about your spouse, she knows that there are no better women in the world than her, at least for me. smile
  • Pane Kohanku April 27 2020 17: 32 New
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    Late, the bird flew out.

    ... said Constantine, and blew smoke from both trunks ... yes
    Do not worry about your spouse, she knows that there are no better women in the world than her, at least for me.

    ... added Konstantin, and licked his lips like Emperor Bokassa on "sugar pork"! wink We know you! drinks
    no, with such a "Bar" I would talk, and it would even be almost all the same to me, no matter what nonsense she carried! Even about haplogroups and superethnoses request But, alas .. girls like her are found only with excellent military and political! I would be sent off with the phrase "rogue." laughing
  • Catfish April 27 2020 17: 49 New
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    .. girls like her are found only with excellent military and political! I would be sent off with the phrase "rogue."

    Not everything is lost, Minhertz, improve your skills in combat work and personal communication with the ladies, and everything will be as it should. smile soldier
  • Krasnodar April 27 2020 18: 07 New
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    No, the girl is democratic - met with Leonardo DiCaprio))
  • Pane Kohanku April 27 2020 18: 16 New
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    No, the girl is democratic - met with Leonardo DiCaprio))

    If the Sea Cat wants to meet her, then nothing shines for me anyway. request And DiCaprio will look like a discounted product! laughing drinks Colleagues - a cool company with us! good Thank you all!
  • 3x3zsave April 27 2020 21: 02 New
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    Phew, girls! That's disgusting! He didn’t even sleep with the horse, he slept in it !!!! negative laughing laughing
  • Trilobite Master April 27 2020 19: 44 New
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    Quote: Pan Kohanku
    no matter what nonsense she carries! Even about haplogroups and superethnoses

    So even more interesting. Like "That's what I do with pseudoscience devotees!" laughing
  • Korsar4 April 27 2020 18: 43 New
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    Strange doubles in this election campaign.
  • Catfish April 27 2020 19: 15 New
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    Hello, Sergey. hi What kind of doubles and what kind of company, I hope, not ours? drinks
  • Korsar4 April 27 2020 19: 26 New
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    Like this. You look - annals. And take a closer look - pictures with namesakes.
  • 3x3zsave April 27 2020 21: 04 New
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    Bravo, Sergey!
  • Korsar4 April 27 2020 21: 07 New
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    “And what are we?
    And we are no worse than many ”(c).
  • 3x3zsave April 27 2020 21: 22 New
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    Oh yeah! Today I clearly realized that a jester is a path. Once you have chosen a path, you cannot turn off it.
  • Korsar4 April 27 2020 21: 56 New
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    “Mockers are good prophets” (c).

    The ability to join the ranks of the characters of Shakespeare, Walter Scott, A.K. Tolstoy, Dumas and the other, other, other - not so bad.

    “Smile, gentlemen” (c).

    And what is hiding behind the screen? Someone will figure out who will feel, who will pass by.
  • Trilobite Master April 27 2020 19: 34 New
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    Spring - dreams and smells invade the brain
    Spring - Allergy and Avitaminosis

    Well, here’s the whole song for you. smile
  • 3x3zsave April 27 2020 21: 12 New
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    Russian punk rock. Ruthless, merciless and .... lyrical!
  • Mite April 27 2020 17: 56 New
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    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Krasnodar
    we will be together with Shpakovsky

    It’s better I’m alone ... I'm afraid of stuttering (a common word, but VO is forbidden!)

    That's right, we all understood .. Such are available for all nationalities wink
  • Pane Kohanku April 27 2020 15: 56 New
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    Bar 1 - make aliyah, return to the Land of Ancestors, the Land of Zion and Jerusalem - we will together with Shpakovsky make plans for the next vile blow from around the fraternal

    "He screamed -" Error here!
    It's me - a Jew! "
    laughing
    The bar is more visible, it has already decomposed the genotype of Vyacheslav Olegovich into haplogroups, and has already reached Adam. drinks
  • Krasnodar April 27 2020 16: 10 New
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    To Kozlevich ??
  • Pane Kohanku April 27 2020 16: 20 New
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    and reached right up to Adam.

    no, which is without a rib, but with Eve was kicked out of paradise under the back with a knee due to the intrigues of the green snake tempter. drinks
  • Krasnodar April 27 2020 16: 26 New
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    For tasted, asp, Polish apple! negative
  • Pane Kohanku April 27 2020 16: 40 New
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    For tasted, asp, Polish apple!

    again the Poles are to blame! belay solid cycle! laughing again tricks V.O. Shpakovsky? wassat
  • Krasnodar April 27 2020 16: 43 New
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    All of him, all Vyacheslav Olegovich .... then he writes "Pravda" discrediting the Soviet system of articles, then he praises the Geyropei history ...
  • Pane Kohanku April 27 2020 16: 51 New
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    All of him, all Vyacheslav Olegovich .... then he writes "Pravda" discrediting the Soviet system of articles, then he praises the Geyropei history ...

    That's it, but not a word about the construction of pyramids with tartars! angry these are all the machinations of the Naglosaksian lack of ethnos and the others that joined them all! drinks
  • Phil77 April 27 2020 18: 57 New
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    And also ..., and also ..., he rivets weapons at night! And in the sunglasses of the foreign company * RAY BAN * he advertises it, he saw it yesterday !!!! bully laughing bully
  • Krasnodar April 27 2020 19: 43 New
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    C'mon Ray Ban - wearing Serengeti glasses - that how behe alludes to his involvement in the overthrow of Gaddafi! repeat
  • Phil77 April 27 2020 19: 49 New
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    * My dear d'Artagnan. I admit everything ... *
    And there is also a breed of cats with that name. Serengeti.
  • Krasnodar April 27 2020 19: 55 New
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    So - works for the Egyptian Mukhabarat am
  • Phil77 April 27 2020 19: 52 New
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    And Olegovich intrigued me a lot with these eyepieces in the photo!
  • Krasnodar April 27 2020 19: 56 New
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    Abas's poor puppet oppressor companion Bar Abas - Basilio!
  • Phil77 April 27 2020 20: 01 New
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    We must take it into development!
    Is your real name?
    -Where did you cross the border?
    -Where did you bury the parachute? laughing bully
  • Krasnodar April 27 2020 20: 02 New
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    - Stirlitz, are you a Jew?
    - No, Russian!
    Here you are fellow
  • Phil77 April 27 2020 20: 06 New
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    Oh! Soulmate !!!!!!
    * For a beer, Mueller asks Stirlitz:
    -My friend, what is your favorite movie?
    - * Volga-Volga *, Stirlitz wanted to answer. But he came to his senses and answered:
    - * Volkswagen-Volkswagen *.
  • Phil77 April 27 2020 20: 10 New
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    "Stirlitz went mushrooming into the forest. And he didn’t come back. Having lost his way, he couldn’t remember how German would be- * Au! *"
  • 3x3zsave April 27 2020 21: 34 New
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    "Maxim Isaev, descendants:" What would you know about the "udalenka" !!! "
  • Phil77 April 27 2020 21: 42 New
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    But what about this, Anton?
    * Stirlitz walked through Berlin. The painters painted over a three-letter Russian word on the fence. "Oh! Stirlitz thought, they sent a new moderator from the center. *
  • 3x3zsave April 27 2020 21: 59 New
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    But no way! These are all the jokes of our fading tribe. What our children are laughing at, we can still understand, what we laughing at, they do not perceive organically.
  • Phil77 April 28 2020 06: 45 New
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    Good morning! Well, it’s not surprising. Above the * case * of the times of Alexander Sergeyevich, we don’t laugh either. But now the pace of life has increased slightly and all the processes are happening faster. What was funny yesterday, today it causes only a smile. hi At best, and then condescending.
  • 3x3zsave April 28 2020 06: 55 New
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    Well, why? There are many literary jokes of the time, about Krylov for example. And their humor is quite accessible to us.
  • Krasnodar April 27 2020 22: 59 New
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    February 23, Stirlitz came to work in a sweatshirt, earflaps, PPSh on his shoulder and a bottle of moonshine. To meet Bormann in a vest, he looks at him condemningly.
    "Wow - Stirlitz thought - if it weren’t for the senior comrades, I wouldn’t remember that February 23rd is a holiday not only of the Red Army, but also of the Navy!"
  • Hantengri April 27 2020 22: 52 New
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    Quote: Krasnodar

    - Stirlitz, are you a Jew?
    - No, Russian!
    Here you are

    - Stirlitz, are you a Jew?
    - I'm Russian, Muller!
    - And I'm German ...
  • Krasnodar April 27 2020 23: 02 New
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    - Stirlitz, you, an hour, not a Jew?
    - Well yes! My mother is Russian, my father is Russian, and for some reason I am a Jew, - Stirlitz was offended and thought: “Have I blabbed something superfluous?”
  • Pane Kohanku April 28 2020 09: 17 New
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    And Olegovich intrigued me a lot with these eyepieces in the photo!

    (Vyacheslav Olegovich, in a brutal voice):- I need your glasses, your clothes and your motorcycle ... bully (ta da da da da dam) laughing
  • Phil77 April 28 2020 16: 10 New
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    Oh! Yes !!!! And it sounds:
    * Bad to the Bone * !!!!!! laughing
  • kalibr April 27 2020 16: 47 New
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    I did a little research on my roots and found out something interesting: since my grandfather and great-grandfather bore the last name Tatarynov, what does it mean? It turned out that there are two versions: Taratynov comes from a distorted reading from Latin to Russian and vice versa. The sound "C" and "C" was designated by the Latin "C", which was also read as "T". Taratynov means Saratsynov, a native of Turkey or the Mediterranean coast. Version 2. The surname Taratynov is derived from the nickname Taratyn, which is supposedly etymologically associated with the Ukrainian verb "taratoti", which means "knocking", "popping", "chattering." Thus, it can be assumed that the founder of the Taratynov clan was a talker, a joker, perhaps just not a restrained person in speeches, for which he received his nickname. It is possible that the nickname Taratyn refers to professional naming and indicates the type of activity of the ancestor: for example, he could be a carpenter or miller, that is, to perform work involving noise, knocking. Taratyn, eventually got the name Taratynov. Judging by the grandfather, who was never a talker, and his father too, judging by the stories of his grandfather, “talkers” were among them, that is, for a long time. Great-grandfather was from Morshansk and it’s clear that he is Orthodox. Then the nationality was not written in the passport. They wrote who believes in what. Judging by the nose, and God didn’t offend either of them, I would rather agree to come from Turkey, but where did they come from in Morshansk, where all the relatives lived? But both the grandfather and the great-grandfather worked at the forge, who from the simple hammers rose to the rank of master of Penza railway workshops. That's how it happens!
  • Krasnodar April 27 2020 16: 54 New
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    Talking about the purity of a European nation (and not only) a couple of thousand years ago was ridiculous.))
  • Pane Kohanku April 27 2020 16: 56 New
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    Interesting story, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    The surname Taratynov is derived from the nickname Taratyn, which is supposedly etymologically associated with the Ukrainian verb "taratoti", which means "knocking", "popping", "chattering."

    They similarly called the head of the Streletsky order of Khovansky - "Tararui". It is precisely because he knew how to speak beautifully, to “play”, acting verbally on the revolutionary masses. fellow Now he would have been nicknamed the "orator," or "revolutionary tribune," but then they did not know such words in Russia. As you remember, he ended badly, but the time of "his control" by the archers was called "Khovanshchina", and then the opera of the same name was written. hi
  • Undecim April 27 2020 19: 22 New
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    with the Ukrainian verb "taratoti"
    Taratoriti.
  • Trilobite Master April 27 2020 12: 53 New
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    Quote: Bar1
    And with your "science" I have nothing to do

    This we understood a long time ago. laughing
    You with and from the Russian language also have little in common. laughing
    However, the loss for both one and the other is completely small. What science, that language, your absence is unlikely to be noticed. smile
    1. Bar1 April 27 2020 12: 56 New
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      Quote: Trilobite Master
      This we understood a long time ago.
      You with and from the Russian language also have little in common.
      However, the loss for both one and the other is completely small. What science, what language, your absence is unlikely to be noticed

      as usual it’s a lie, from trilobite ...
      1. Hantengri April 27 2020 16: 05 New
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        Quote: Bar1
        Quote: Trilobite Master

        This we understood a long time ago.
        You with and from the Russian language also have little in common.
        However, the loss for both one and the other is completely small. What science, what language, your absence is unlikely to be noticed


        as usual it’s a lie, from trilobite ...

        And what? Did you notice? Have you tried checking? laughing
  • Heathen April 27 2020 15: 37 New
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    That's just the word "card" is not Russian, but of foreign origin))
  • Vend April 27 2020 10: 30 New
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    [quote = Bar1] [quote] Somehow very little, about the Lavrentievsky Chronicle it should be said that this document itself appeared in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, and before that time no one had heard anything about it.

    The Ipatiev Chronicle was found in the library of the Academy of Sciences by that very court historiographer who wrote this story to us -Karamzin and it was already in the 19th century.
    It is divided into several lists, the main Khlebnikovsky and Pogodinsky.
    . [/ Quote]
    The fact that the annals were published since the 18th century does not mean their falsification, the history of how science began to be created in Russia at that time. And the analysis of the annals was carried out only paleographic, no one checked the annals on the date of their creation. So do not fake concepts. Lovers of claiming that the chronicles were rewritten or even written in the! 8th century do not represent what they are talking about. Chronicles have about 500 volumes, count how much time is needed and with what secrecy you need to work to create these "fakes". laughing
    1. Bar1 April 27 2020 11: 12 New
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      Quote: Wend
      from the fact that the annals have been published since the 18th century does not speak about their falsification, the history of how science began to be created in Russia at that time.


      Have you heard about the historian Lyzlov? It was a 17th century historian, and then right up to the MIDDLE of the 19th century and the Academy of Sciences the Germans ruled the ball, they wrote us all these "stories".

      Quote: Wend
      generally written in! 8 centuries do not represent what they say


      Duc not in the 18th century, but as Ipatievskaya in the 19th century.

      Quote: Wend
      Chronicles have about 500 volumes, count how much time is needed and with what secrecy you need to work to create these "fakes".


      for one hundred and fifty years, clerks from the Kiev-Pechersk Mohyla Academy quite coped with this task.
      1. Vend April 27 2020 11: 26 New
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        Quote: Bar1
        Quote: Wend
        from the fact that the annals have been published since the 18th century does not speak about their falsification, the history of how science began to be created in Russia at that time.


        Have you heard about the historian Lyzlov? It was a 17th century historian, and then right up to the MIDDLE of the 19th century and the Academy of Sciences the Germans ruled the ball, they wrote us all these "stories".

        Quote: Wend
        generally written in! 8 centuries do not represent what they say


        Duc not in the 18th century, but as Ipatievskaya in the 19th century.

        Quote: Wend
        Chronicles have about 500 volumes, count how much time is needed and with what secrecy you need to work to create these "fakes".


        for one hundred and fifty years, clerks from the Kiev-Pechersk Mohyla Academy quite coped with this task.

        I repeat, work with so many annals would not withstand secrecy and data on falsification, of such a massive scale, could not be hidden, no fantasies needed. I understand that from the camp the whole history of Russia is a lie, but you need to think about it with your head.
        1. Bar1 April 27 2020 11: 32 New
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          Quote: Wend
          Quote: Bar1
          Quote: Wend
          from the fact that the annals have been published since the 18th century does not speak about their falsification, the history of how science began to be created in Russia at that time.


          Have you heard about the historian Lyzlov? It was a 17th century historian, and then right up to the MIDDLE of the 19th century and the Academy of Sciences the Germans ruled the ball, they wrote us all these "stories".

          Quote: Wend
          generally written in! 8 centuries do not represent what they say


          Duc not in the 18th century, but as Ipatievskaya in the 19th century.

          Quote: Wend
          Chronicles have about 500 volumes, count how much time is needed and with what secrecy you need to work to create these "fakes".


          for one hundred and fifty years, clerks from the Kiev-Pechersk Mohyla Academy quite coped with this task.

          I repeat, work with so many annals would not withstand secrecy and data on falsification, of such a massive scale, could not be hidden, no fantasies needed. I understand that from the camp the whole history of Russia is a lie, but you need to think about it with your head.


          Well, the argument is your weak one, they “failed”, they say, it’s someone who believes, I think they managed.
          1. Vend April 27 2020 16: 46 New
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            Quote: Bar1
            Quote: Wend
            Quote: Bar1
            Quote: Wend
            from the fact that the annals have been published since the 18th century does not speak about their falsification, the history of how science began to be created in Russia at that time.


            Have you heard about the historian Lyzlov? It was a 17th century historian, and then right up to the MIDDLE of the 19th century and the Academy of Sciences the Germans ruled the ball, they wrote us all these "stories".

            Quote: Wend
            generally written in! 8 centuries do not represent what they say


            Duc not in the 18th century, but as Ipatievskaya in the 19th century.

            Quote: Wend
            Chronicles have about 500 volumes, count how much time is needed and with what secrecy you need to work to create these "fakes".


            for one hundred and fifty years, clerks from the Kiev-Pechersk Mohyla Academy quite coped with this task.

            I repeat, work with so many annals would not withstand secrecy and data on falsification, of such a massive scale, could not be hidden, no fantasies needed. I understand that from the camp the whole history of Russia is a lie, but you need to think about it with your head.


            Well, the argument is your weak one, they “failed”, they say, it’s someone who believes, I think they managed.

            Weak for you laughing laughing laughing laughing for you forehead a historical material is not an argument, if it does not fit into the rule, the history of Russia is a lie laughing dreamers divorced laughing
  • Andrey Krasnoyarsky April 28 2020 09: 41 New
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    Bar1, do not read folk historians who are the same historians as I am a ballerina. The Ipatiev Chronicle (or rather the Ipatiev Chronicle) is the South Russian chronicle, the first edition of which was compiled in the early 15th century, and six of its lists were in the 16-17th centuries. A list is just a copy; an alteration is called a revision or version. No "enemies of Russia" wrote any chronicles to us, it’s just a crazy fable walking on the Internet. Just rewriting the chronicles makes no sense.
  • Andrey Krasnoyarsky April 28 2020 09: 51 New
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    Since I am well acquainted with the annals, I can assure you that the rulers (church or secular) changed only the interpretation of events, and historical facts themselves usually did not touch. In the worst case, a "default figure" was used without mentioning uncomfortable events. A chronicle is not a story, it is just a fixation of current events, nothing more. Of course, the chronicler did not usually check how reliable the information he writes was, so the annals are full of legends, myths and dubious facts. But professional historians for several centuries have carefully checked the information of the annals for reliability. Although it is sometimes difficult to find out what is true, that is fiction. But is it only in relation to ancient Russia? Look at the history of the 20-21 centuries, you will see a very different interpretation and a list of facts and events, a different assessment of personalities. Stalin didn’t live for 1000 years from us, the sources for the period of the 20-50s are full, but look at how the interpretations differ. For some, Stalin was a great leader, and the Stalin period was the rise and heyday of the Soviet state. For others, Stalin is a tyrant and a maniac, and the Stalin period is a continuous gulag and repression. And who is right? But from Stalin to us, by historical standards, very few years have passed.
  • Nyrobsky April 28 2020 17: 52 New
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    Quote: Free Wind
    Hello. I don’t really trust all these manuscripts-censuses. First of all, they describe what the next ruler or church needs. write an essay on three annals, destroy the originals.

    "" "On the contrary, whoever saw it wrote that way, remembering, however, that God is for a lie, the more so he will punish him twice.““ ”- they didn’t take it upon themselves, and therefore attributed -“ Behold, I heard from a seer, And behold from another chronicler, And behold from another old one. ”Apparently, only the first chronicler had the opportunity to embellish certain events to please the Bishop. The rest made a list, or a copy.
    Massively burned books during the time of the split, when all church books decided to lead to a single text for all churches for a single reading and interpretation of prayers and rites.
  • Olgovich April 27 2020 07: 12 New
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    interesting topic!
    Radzivilov Chronicle.

    a real work of art, amazingly beautiful miniatures!

    Withdrawal Polovtsy part of the Russian population captive, 1093. Description of the event in miniature in the text of the annals: “... and people of division and vedzha in honor of their compassion and kindred. Many kind of christian

    "Nothing, we coped with the Polovtsians, coped with the Pechenegs" (c) yes:

    View of the Ipatiev Monastery in Kostroma


    It’s good that at least it was preserved ....

    but the most amazing pearl of Russia, the medieval Kostroma Kremlin.... blew up people
  • rich April 27 2020 07: 15 New
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    The Ipatiev Chronicle by and large is not a separate narrative. A set of various lists of annals, further combined by chronology (with chronological errors)
    Comrades, I’ll try to give the structure of IPL "military"
    The Ipatiev Chronicle includes three separate parts arranged in chronological order.
    1. This part of the chronicle is known as the initial chronicle - “The Tale of Bygone Years” (PVL). The first part is devoted to the history of Kievan Rus until 1110.
    2. This part of the chronicle is known as the Kiev Chronicle. It begins from the place where the PVL ends, and continues the narrative until 1200. 3. This part of the annals is known as the Galician-Volyn annals, it covers the period from 1200 to 1292. This part of the Ipatiev Chronicle is directly related to the Principality of Galicia-Volyn, a state formed after the partition of Kievan Rus.
    The chronicle has been preserved in 5 lists:
    1. Ipatievsky list (the first quarter of the XV century.). The list is completed by entries relating to the Pinsk and Stepan princes of 1292.
    2. Khlebnikov list (XVI century.), Created in the southwestern territories. It was made from the same original as Ipatievsky, but in some places there are more correct readings. In addition, the list fills in some of the gaps found in the Ipatiev list.
    3.Pogodinsky, which refers to the XVII century. Its ending has been lost.
    4. The Cracow list of the late 5th century, made with an earlier manuscript in Latin letters. It has an ending that is not in the previous list. XNUMX. Ermolaevsky list, relating to the end of the XVII - the beginning of the XVIII century
    Possible primary sources
    According to the philologist and linguist A. A. Shakhmatov, it includes four sources:
    1. The General Russian annalistic vault, whose origin dates back to the beginning of the 1479th century, and the Suzdal region is called the place of compilation. It is considered as one of the sources on the basis of which the Ipatiev and Lavrentiev annals and the annals of the Moscow Principality of XNUMX were written.
    2.Kiev arch related to 1199. The place of its compilation was the Mikhailovsky Vydubitsky Monastery in Kiev.
    3. Chernigov Chronicle.
    4. The Galician-Volyn annals
    Current copies of the Ipatiev list
    Two copies of the Ipatiev list are stored in archives.
    1. One manuscript, stored in the Russian State Archive of Ancient Acts, was made on 346 pages, judging by the same handwriting, it was written by one person. The record was made on blue paper and dated to 1814. On the last sheet there is a recording made by the scribe: From the original of this chronicler, the collegiate registrar Peter Bolshakov copied. This list was checked with the original by the college adviser and gentleman Ivan Zhdanovsky. On the first sheet there is another entry: This chronicle, called Volynsky, was presented to the Archive Library of 1816. A. Malinovsky.
    2. Another copy of the Ipatiev Chronicle is stored in the library of the Russian Academy of Sciences. The date of its creation is 1819. It was made by the archaeographer V. G. Anastasovich. The manuscript includes elements of the Khlebnikov and Ermolaev lists. Khlebnikov list The manuscript includes 386 sheets. Its owner for some time was a merchant P.K. Khlebnikov from Kolomna. On the binding and on the first sheet in filigree technique the coat of arms of the city of Yaroslavl is made. The first page of the list lists the princes who ruled in Kiev until 1240, when Batu took the city. The list contains blank sheet inserts that have a pagination designation. Some of them have a watermark from the Mosolov Rolling Factory, dating back to the 1750s. In the period from 1753 to 1756, a lot of notes were made on the pages. Some of them were cut off when weaving, so the list was bound after 1756. The main part of the list was written in the late 50s - early 60s of the XVI century. It was written by one scribe, except for one small fragment on the 226th sheet. The manuscript was written in South Russian and has typical linguistic features. The postscript made in the next century also indicate South Russian origin. By the XNUMXth century some pages of the list were lost, some of them seemed confused. Instead of the lost sheets, new ones were added, they were copied from some other.

    I apologize for such a long comment, in short it did not work out
    1. kalibr April 27 2020 07: 57 New
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      You wrote a great comment! In theory, this is the actual addition to the article. It is always nice to be complemented in exactly this way. Thank!
    2. Bar1 April 27 2020 09: 24 New
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      Quote: Rich
      .Khlebnikovsky list (XVI century) created in the southwestern territories. It was made from the same original as Ipatievsky, but in some places there are more correct readings. In addition, the list fills in some of the gaps found in the Ipatiev list.


      in general, the Ipatiev Chronicle is compiled by the lists of Khlebnikovsky, Pogodinsky and some more.
      1. rich April 27 2020 15: 47 New
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        I agree with you. Not quite well formulated
  • rich April 27 2020 07: 25 New
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    Ipatyevsky Monastery

    According to the monastery legend, the Ipatiev Monastery was founded around 1330 by the Tatar Murza Chet, the ancestor of the Godunov and Saburov family, who fled from the Golden Horde to Ivan Kalita and was baptized in Moscow under the name Zakharia. In this place he had a vision of the Mother of God with the upcoming Apostle Philip and the holy martyr Ipat Gangra, the result of which was his healing from the disease. In gratitude for healing, a monastery was founded on this site. Modern scholars consider the Murza Murza a mythical figure, and “The Legend of Prince Chet” a genealogical legend designed to give the princely status to the Godunov family.
    According to Academician Stepan Veselovsky, the monastery was founded by Prince Vasily Yaroslavich, brother of Alexander Nevsky, who had already become the Grand Duke of Vladimir, but who preferred to live in Kostroma.
    After the death of Prince Vasily and the abolition of the Principality of Kostroma, the monastery came under the protection of the Godunov clan, which rose in the middle of the XNUMXth century. The Godunovs, like some other noble noble families (Zakharyins, Veliaminovs, Saburovs, Sheins), considered Zakharia (Chet) to be the ancestor. Its representatives became clerks of the Ipatiev Monastery. On the territory of the monastery is the tomb of this ancient and famous boyar family, including the grave of father and mother Boris Godunov.
    According to Professor L.I.Shanina, the monastery was founded by the Novgorodians, since St. Hypatius was revered in Novgorod as the patron saint of the posadniks, and the Kostroma River has long been one of the ways to move Novgorod to the Volga.
    photo1. Alexey Bogolyubov. Ipatiev Monastery near Kostroma. 1861. State Tretyakov Gallery
    1. Olgovich April 27 2020 09: 35 New
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      Quote: Rich
      Ipatyevsky Monastery

      beauty!

      but it’s exactly 110 years ago-photo from almost the same point:


      and this Cathedral of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary Ipatiev Monastery 110 years ago:


      Only a photo remains of it - blown up by nonhumans in 1934

      On the right you can see the bell tower of the monastery.

      photos of the remarkable Russian scientist and photographer Prokudin-Gorsky
      1. Fat
        Fat April 27 2020 12: 12 New
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        Quote: Olgovich
        Quote: Rich
        Ipatyevsky Monastery

        beauty!

        but it’s exactly 110 years ago-photo from almost the same point:


        and this Cathedral of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary Ipatiev Monastery 110 years ago:


        Only a photo remains of it - blown up by nonhumans in 1934

        On the right you can see the bell tower of the monastery.

        photos of the remarkable Russian scientist and photographer Prokudin-Gorsky

        The Cathedral of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the Ipatiev Monastery has been restored and consecrated. You will be able to see the passage.
        But so far only outside. Service is not conducted there (For 2017) ... the interior decoration, that is, the painting, is not finished. In theory, Palekh masters should work there, as before in the 19th century ... Yes, yes. This temple is not very ancient, built in the 60-70s of the century before last, designed by K. A. Ton.
        So, in addition to the photo, the project itself (partially) was found and used.
  • mr.ZinGer April 27 2020 07: 48 New
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    Very timely article.,.
    I watched the series "Name of the Rose" and wondered how this was with us.
    Thanks to the author and commentators.
  • svp67 April 27 2020 07: 49 New
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    Thanks to the author. I hope that other sources, the same Novgorod annals, will also describe in the sequel ...
    1. kalibr April 27 2020 08: 00 New
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      Sergei! There is a problem with this. Material for the article is still lying. And I don’t remember if it is there or not. And to search again ... this one was collecting a lot of time from various sources. After all, the web has it all. But EVERYTHING has to be compared, something to be read from books ... In a word, you cannot write a monograph, the number of characters in the article is limited, there are a lot of annals and how to combine all this? Complicated!
      1. svp67 April 27 2020 08: 03 New
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        Quote: kalibr
        In a word, a monograph cannot be written, the number of characters in the article is limited, there are many chronicles, and how to combine all this? Complicated!

        Well, then I’ll wait for the continuation ... Well, I need to criticize, otherwise everything is “approving” and “approving” ... tongue Good luck and inspiration ...
        1. kalibr April 27 2020 10: 55 New
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          So I always seem to have a good attitude to constructive criticism, so criticize your health!
          1. svp67 April 27 2020 10: 56 New
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            Quote: kalibr
            to health!

            A good toast, most importantly topical ... drinks hi
          2. Nyrobsky April 28 2020 22: 02 New
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            Quote: kalibr
            So I always seem to have a good attitude to constructive criticism, so criticize your health!

            Well then, I’ll add a little constructive not malicious criticism for the sake of, but objectivity for ....
            And the conclusion: such a number of figures, coupled with the text, is fake physically impossible. And most importantly, such a fake would not make sense, since it would be easily established by cross-comparison with other texts, and errors in illustrations - by archeological data. Wherever you throw, everywhere a wedge! Or do you fake one to one, they say, you found another list previously unknown and want to sell it for a lot of money (there is still at least some hope that they will not get it, although it’s very weak), or we’ll make changes there, and here we are exposes the first specialist! That is, in any case, the money spent will not pay off. Only 617 miniatures ... well ... 500000 p. for each + text ... expensive comes out pleasure, right? And most importantly, why?
            It’s unlikely that anyone will take up fake old texts for sale since it’s unlikely that you’ll earn anything on this due to the fact that you can overlap with dictionaries and you can copy the writing style, but it is impossible to express a thought in those semantic word-turns and find "that paper, that ink and that cinnabar." To counterfeit at that level, you need to really invest a lot of money in the reconstruction of technologies and the production of at least small batches of paper in the structure corresponding to that period, not counting other subtleties.
            Just the other day, I had a chance to hold a handwritten book in my hands with the purpose of determining approximate dating - "Prayer examination for the deliverance of the non-fearing heating of violence of unclean spirits and prayers conjure to the same evil spirits" - "Prayer examination for the expulsion of sorceries, magical blessings" a house, or a place fascinated by evil dreams "- In other words, the expulsion of demons, the removal of the evil eye, spoilage and other love spells from people, pets and at home, through prayer. In the margins there are two entries indicating the name of the priest who performed the rites (Uglich was a native) and the place where he served (Trinity Village in Boru). Deepening the history of working in archives is a long business, so we went along the path of researching the material itself. Watermarks YAMSYA (1779g) and YAMVSYA (1794g) were discovered on the page lumen, which made it clear that the paper for the book was made at the Yaroslavl Manufactory of Savva Yakovlev and the grandchildren of Savva Yakovlev (1779-1794 years of release) and the book was written in the late 18th, early 19th century. The book was pretty waxed - apparently the priests often drove demons at that time. hi
  • rich April 27 2020 07: 53 New
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    Thanks to the respected Author for the interesting material. And especially for the author’s courage. The theme he raised was painfully slippery and controversial even among historians. There are no different opinions on this matter. Therefore, as a dilettante in this matter I will beware of commenting on it, I will limit myself only to reference data. But I read the comments with pleasure. I am especially looking forward to comments from AllBiBek, the Master Trilobit (Mikhail), Eduard Vashchenko (Eduard), Fil77 (Sergey), Undecima, arturpraetor (Artem), Operator (Andrey), Bar1 (Pavel), and Vyacheslav Olegovich himself.
    1. 3x3zsave April 27 2020 08: 03 New
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      Dmitry, my respect hi
      Undecima's name is Victor Nikolaevich.
      1. rich April 27 2020 08: 09 New
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        Good morning Anton hi
        Many thanks. Always liked his comments.
        1. 3x3zsave April 27 2020 08: 14 New
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          Always happy to help!
          In general, VikNick published articles under the account "Dekabrist" at the time.
          1. Astra wild April 27 2020 12: 29 New
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            Somewhere I saw an article, an article signed by the Decembrist, but did not know who he was
        2. Phil77 April 27 2020 08: 26 New
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          Good morning Dmitry! Thank you very much for the mention, but ... Sorry, but I frankly * swim * in this thread! Therefore, I’d better read the article and the comments on it. Without any fawning / and what is it for? /, But I read your comments with great pleasure! Honestly, but your knowledge would have been sufficient for more than one article, and your syllable is wonderful! I’m waiting !!! hi Yes, yes, Vyacheslav Olegovich thanks for the next work! Informative! hi
          1. rich April 27 2020 08: 28 New
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            I read your comments with great pleasure!

            I am yours hi
            1. Phil77 April 27 2020 08: 32 New
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              I’m waiting, waiting, Dmitry for your article on the history of the Terek Cossacks! Yes, and this topic has been waiting for you! I’m sure. hi
    2. Undecim April 27 2020 09: 58 New
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      Therefore, as a dilettante in this matter I will beware of commenting on it, I will limit myself only to reference data.
      I don’t know how others (I won’t talk about Bara, his violent ignorance is a separate issue), but comments of informational, informational nature in this case are the most optimal approach.
      Some kind of conceptual conclusions can be born only on the basis of very serious work on the primary sources and the results of the study of chronicles by scientists.
      Well, or on the basis of dense ignorance.
      1. kalibr April 27 2020 10: 57 New
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        Quote: Undecim
        Some kind of conceptual conclusions can be born only on the basis of very serious work on the primary sources and the results of the study of chronicles by scientists.

        Exactly! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      2. Bar1 April 27 2020 11: 28 New
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        the subservient fear of going beyond eleven is what he considers "literacy," but in reality it certainly is not.
    3. kalibr April 27 2020 10: 56 New
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      Quote: Rich
      Bar1 (Paul)

      I am for relatively everyone except his one ...
      1. rich April 27 2020 12: 58 New
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        Well, in vain. I believe that Pavel is an excellent catalyst for increasing your commentary activity. After all, it is from your debate with him that we are amateur non-professionals and we receive those competent and detailed posts for which we value Undecima. kalibrand, Master Trilobite и arturpraetorа
        1. kalibr April 27 2020 15: 44 New
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          Quote: Rich
          Pavel is an excellent catalyst for increasing your commentary activity.

          This is you so judge by youth. After 65, I'm sure you will judge differently. Although there are always exceptions.
  • sabakina April 27 2020 08: 11 New
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    She came here in the XVIII century from the Ipatiev Monastery, which is located near Kostroma.
    Ipatiev Monastery is located not under Kostroma, but in Kostroma.
    1. rich April 27 2020 08: 23 New
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      Glory hi
      For you as a local, God himself ordered the pictures of this monastery to be posted (both inside and out). It would be very interesting
      1. Fat
        Fat April 27 2020 12: 32 New
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        Quote: Rich
        Glory hi
        For you as a local, God himself ordered the pictures of this monastery to be posted (both inside and out). It would be very interesting

        https://monasterium.ru/monastyri/monastery/svyato-troitskiy-ipatevskiy-muzhskoy-monastyr/
        The monastery is not always allowed to take pictures. Click here for the official photo gallery.
        1. rich April 27 2020 14: 33 New
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          Thank you, Andrey Borisovich
          1. Fat
            Fat April 27 2020 21: 09 New
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            Not at all ... I had a chance to work for several seasons in Ipatievsky sometimes taking pictures, but I couldn’t find the photo quickly ..
            And in the official gallery, most of the species are precisely made in the period from 2000 to 2012 (((
  • 3x3zsave April 27 2020 08: 30 New
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    Thanks, Vyacheslav Olegovich! Due to the fact that the topic of this cycle is “terra incognita” for me, I can’t ask the traditional “smart question”. However, I am grateful to you for expanding my knowledge in this area.
  • Undecim April 27 2020 09: 06 New
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    Therefore, we will begin, perhaps, with the Manuscripts Department of the Russian National Library, where, together with other valuable manuscripts of our ancestors, the chronicle, called Lavrentievskaya, is also stored.

    Today - 438 thousand units of storage. The department is one of the ten largest manuscript repositories in the world.
    1. Undecim April 27 2020 09: 16 New
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      We read it a lot, since it is clear that its sheets not only dilapidated, but also numerous traces of drops of wax from candles are visible on the pages. That is, in its six hundredth century, this book has seen a lot.
      1. Undecim April 27 2020 09: 31 New
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        And she was named after the person who rewrote it in 1377, and at the end, on the very last page, left such an interesting autograph: “Az (I) is a thin, unworthy and many-sinful servant of God Laurentius of mine (monk)” .
        In fact, there were three scribes. But the "autograph" was left only by one - Lavrenty, perhaps he was the main one.
      2. Free wind April 27 2020 11: 14 New
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        Better not read.! Parchment is stored of course for a long time, but not indefinitely. Many factors are important, primarily temperature and humidity. It was not tanned, but to increase durability, parchment was impregnated with fat. And it attracted insects. Parchment is a very expensive product. For one folded into two sheets, one animal was required. They then folded and sewn together. . Four such double sheets nested in each other, NOTEBOOK. And then they were bound into a book. Parchment was made of different materials, the price also varied. Very expensive was parchment from calfskin, human skin, more expensive was the "girl parchment". There are books written on this material. The most expensive there are fallow deer, bullshit, etc. And so for general development. Currently, the most expensive skin, the skin with a member of the Blue Whale. There was a scandal at one time, we can say that seat covers, in the "fret sedan" were sewn from this skin, and were shown at the exhibition. Albert, who the prince almost spoke in Russian. I exaggerate of course, but it was. The car was called Combat.
  • awdrgy April 27 2020 10: 16 New
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    Question to those who are keen on history Nobody dug about the t "Midnight Monk Polycarpus"? (I’ve already shoveled so many things, but I still can’t figure it out whether it’s stuffed or not. And most importantly, even if it’s stuffed, is there that same spoon of honey that you should continue to “dig”?)
    1. rich April 27 2020 12: 27 New
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      Greetings ,awdrgy hi
      I recommend you to read - Vasily Shchepetnev. "Singers of Hell" (novel in short stories). Ed. Prestige Buk, 2015 Series: Retro library of adventure and science fiction.ISBN: 978-5-371-00465-9

      On pages 90-96 placed short story "Midnight Walk of the Monk Polycarp". Actually from her and grow the legs of the whole story.
      You can download the book for free without any difficulty - either by Author, or by name, or by ISBN from any library of electronic books.
      And so that you are not mistaken in its "truthfulness" and "scientificness." Look at the review of it from the site "Bookguide.ru" - click on this picture and it will increase
      1. awdrgy April 27 2020 13: 00 New
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        Thank you, I also went out to it and read excerpts earlier apparently also everything from there as written in the review. However, I’m just interested in whether, under the invention of the author, there are real reasons for letting them and not so “fried” (so far I haven’t found anything). dig Anyway along the way the information encountered is very interesting
        1. rich April 27 2020 13: 37 New
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          Yuri Senkevich was also fond of this topic. In the 80s he was read by his articles on the history, archeology, life and development of the Arctic
          1. Mite April 27 2020 18: 10 New
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            Quote: Rich
            Yuri Senkevich was also fond of this topic. In the 80s he was read by his articles on the history, archeology, life and development of the Arctic

            Wow, you haven’t seen such a photo .. Thank you !!!! Senkevich always thought a simple batan smart ..
            1. rich April 27 2020 19: 15 New
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              Senkevich always thought simple batan smart

              Yuri Alexandrovich Senkevich
              Born March 4, 1937 in the city of Bayan-Tumen in Mongolia (now Choibalsan) in a family of military personnel. Father is a doctor. Mother is an operating sister
              In 1954 he graduated from secondary school No. 107 in Leningrad
              1960 - graduated from the Military Medical Academy. S. M. Kirov in Leningrad and
              Served Nach. Honey in the military unit 93762 of the city of Bologoe-4 (now ZATO Ozerny) of the Kalinin (Tver) region.
              1962 - transferred to Moscow to the Institute of Aviation and Space Medicine of the USSR Ministry of Defense.
              1963 - seconded to the Institute of Biomedical Problems of the Ministry of Health of the USSR, in which he went from a junior researcher to the head of the Specialized Training Center for Biomedical Cosmonauts, participating in the preparation and medical support of manned space flights and biosatellite flights (with animals on board). As a research doctor, he was trained to participate in space flight.
              More than 60 scientific papers have become the result of the research of Yu. A. Senkevich in the field of space physiology and psychology, the study of man in extreme conditions.
              1966-1967, on the instructions of the USSR Ministry of Defense, took part in the 12th Soviet Antarctic expedition to the Vostok station. One of the main directions of scientific research of Yu. Senkevich was the study of human behavior in extreme conditions. The materials collected in this expedition formed the basis of his dissertation.
              1969 - at the invitation of the famous Norwegian traveler-researcher Thor Heyerdahl made a trip on the papyrus boat "Ra" (1969), and then on the "Ra-2" (1970). Later in 1977-1978, an expedition in the Indian Ocean on the Tigris followed. Both expeditions were significant scientific events.
              1973-1982 - head of the department of scientific, medical and technical information at the Institute of Biomedical Problems of the USSR Academy of Sciences
              1973 - was invited to Central Television as the host of the Cinema Travel Club show, and the show was subsequently recorded in the Guinness Book of Records.
              1979 - took part in the medical support of the expedition of the USSR Ministry of Defense to the North Pole.
              1980-1982 - participated in the first Soviet expedition to Everest.
              Member of the CPSU
              Colonel of the medical service of the USSR Air Force
              Corresponding Member of the USSR Academy of Sciences
              In 1990, he was elected People's Deputy of the Moscow City Council of People's Deputies.
              1997 - elected academician of the Russian Television Academy, the Travelers Club show was awarded the highest award of the Russian television TEFI.
              He was president of the Association of Travelers of Russia, a member of the Union of Journalists of Russia, co-chair of the Foundation for International Humanitarian Aid and Cooperation.
              He died at the workplace on September 25, 2003 in Moscow at the 67th year of his life from heart failure.
              The funeral service took place in the Assumption Church of the Novodevichy Convent. He was buried at the Novodevichy cemetery.
              Awards
              Order of Merit to the Fatherland
              Order "For Service to the Homeland in the Armed Forces of the USSR" II degree
              Order "For Service to the Homeland in the Armed Forces of the USSR" III degree
              Order of Friendship of Peoples
              Order of the Badge of Honor
              Officer of the Order of the Alawite Throne (Morocco)
              Order of Merit (Egypt)
              Medals
              USSR State Prize - for research in Antarctica
              Memory
              On March 17, 2014, in honor of Yuri Senkevich, the new A-320 aircraft of Aeroflot Airlines was named
              The shipping company Sovcomflot named in honor of the famous Soviet traveler and researcher an ocean-going ice-class tanker with a total carrying capacity (deadweight) of 100 tons (twice the size of the Titanic) - Yuri Senkevich.
              The name of Yu. A. Senkevich was assigned to the GAOU VPO MGIIT.
              The gold medal of the Russian Geographical Society is named after Yu. A. Senkevich.
              Senkovich named the boulevard in Moscow.
              1. Mite April 27 2020 19: 55 New
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                Quote: Rich
                The gold medal of the Russian Geographical Society is named after Yu. A. Senkevich.
                Senkovich named the boulevard in Moscow.

                His calm voice, “Travelers Club” still sounds in my head and his smile was very revealing. One of my favorite shows was and the children opened their mouths to watch these shows and dreamed .. Oh, now there aren’t any, he said then that he studied and saw, and not just chatted after reading a wiki and whether Google .. hi
                Thank you Rich, just nostalgia and did not know this ..
                He will remain forever in the souls of Soviet people !!!
  • Korsar4 April 27 2020 10: 40 New
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    The amazing work of the chroniclers.
    It is no coincidence that the Name of the Rose was recalled.

    “What is the same sinful
    On the slabby these sheets
    Hurry up the haste
    Or censuses ”(c).
  • Astra wild April 27 2020 12: 21 New
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    "the main thing for what?" This question should be addressed to the "historians": Fomenko, Petukhov, Samsonov and others
  • Astra wild April 27 2020 12: 24 New
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    Quote: Undecim
    And she was named after the person who rewrote it in 1377, and at the end, on the very last page, left such an interesting autograph: “Az (I) is a thin, unworthy and many-sinful servant of God Laurentius of mine (monk)” .
    In fact, there were three scribes. But the "autograph" was left only by one - Lavrenty, perhaps he was the main one.

    Or conceited
  • vladcub April 27 2020 14: 35 New
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    "carriers of ancient books with great respect for the work of their predecessors" if modern historians had such an attitude towards the work of their predecessors
  • faterdom April 27 2020 15: 00 New
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    Imagine taking the current release from the newspaper stall: Speed-Info, Mother-in-law recipes, Komsomolskaya Pravda, Egoist, Driving ... and after a couple of thousand years try to describe our life with you and care...
    We wouldn’t recognize ourselves, it would be more feasible than a policeman Ivan Franko or an astronaut in earflaps and a sledgehammer.
  • Trilobite Master April 27 2020 15: 03 New
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    Vyacheslav Olegovich, as always, thanks for the material. hi
    I’ll add from myself that the more I’m interested in source study, the more I understand that with the study of these very sources it’s all just as simple as the historians are doing tremendous work to decipher them and this work is very far from complete.
    To read the chronicler, to understand what he wrote is not enough, you also need to understand what he meant, what he wanted to say by inserting a passage in the text.
    And it’s probably worth noting that with the help of modern science, scientists can determine with acceptable accuracy not only the time when a particular text was written (by parchment, ink composition, way of writing letters), but also the time when and even where this text is was compiled - by its spelling features. Roughly speaking, based on the materials of the rewritten text, it is possible to determine when and where the original, initial one was composed. This is done by linguists.
    Mistakes are practically eliminated here, because linguists already have enough knowledge to trace changes in the Russian language with acceptable accuracy, in any case from the moment he found his writing, and by comparing with the related languages ​​of other Slavic peoples, to get a certain understanding of the preliterate language of our ancestors. A kind of dendrochronological scale.
    I think that after the end of the cycle on chronicles, it would make sense to consider a version of the cycle on birch bark letters. This is simply a valuable source of information about colloquial speech, in fact the direct speech of our ancestors who lived almost 1000 years ago, and this speech is not the language of official office work, but a living language, the language that they spoke in everyday life with each other.
    By the way, precisely because of the constant change in the language of falsification of chronicles, and even more so, corrections in them are practically impossible. In any case, they were completely impossible even in the first half of the XNUMXth century, and even more so earlier, since no one at that time possessed so much linguistic knowledge to accurately imitate the text even three hundred to four hundred years ago, not to mention more early texts. Therefore, "The Word of Igor’s Regiment" is a genuine work of the XNUMXth century, and the Veles Book is a fake, at the very end of the XNUMXth century, but rather, the middle of the XNUMXth century
    Chronicles are studied in exactly the same way and, accordingly, up to half a century, the time for compiling (not writing, rewriting, namely compiling) the source text for the scribe is determined, which excludes thoughts about fakes, erasures, and other forgeries. Rather, such studies make it possible to identify with mathematical precision these same forgeries and corrections and even with no less accuracy to establish exactly when they were made - by the difference in style, spelling, etc.
    1. kalibr April 27 2020 15: 41 New
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      That's all right, dear Michael!
    2. Korsar4 April 27 2020 15: 47 New
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      How fast is the language changing now?
      If not spelling, for example, are the articles of the beginning, middle and end of the XNUMXth century different?

      Although, of course, there will always be some markers, in the form of names, and other dating.
      But after 500 years, it will be very difficult to distinguish.
      1. Trilobite Master April 27 2020 15: 58 New
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        Quote: Korsar4
        Are, for example, articles of the beginning, middle and end of the XNUMXth century different

        Of course. I think if you let newspaper articles from these three times be read, you, even without being a professional linguist, will be able to determine which time.
        Now it’s even easier than centuries ago. Language changes with life. Life changes faster, language changes faster. New words appear, old ones leave. And according to modern "birch bark letters" - to any forums, guest books, where colloquial and even slang speech is used, determining the time of writing the text is not a problem at all.
        1. Korsar4 April 27 2020 16: 23 New
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          The author remains that. The lines of early and late Leo Tolstoy and Dostoevsky are similar in similar genres.

          And elements of imitation can. Of course, there are borders. But they also have vagueness.
          1. Trilobite Master April 27 2020 17: 36 New
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            Quote: Korsar4
            The lines of early and late Leo Tolstoy and Dostoevsky are similar in similar genres.

            I think a professional linguist will find differences. If we compare, for example, “Sevastopol Stories” and “Resurrection,” then even a layman will find a difference, and the matter is not only in the evolution of the work of the writer himself. I, however, certainly not a literary critic. smile
            Regarding languages ​​and their development, I read several articles by Anatoly Zaliznyak. I managed to catch and realize a few basic points.
            1. Do not develop, that is, only dead languages ​​do not change. Languages ​​that are used all the time are in a state of change.
            2. The speed of development (change) of the language directly depends on the speed of change in the life of its speakers and their communication capabilities. In the era of global informatization, these speeds increased by several orders of magnitude.
            3. Any existing language accurately reflects the reality surrounding its speakers, instantly adjusting to it.
            4. Changes in languages ​​occur according to laws universal for all languages. And strictly according to them and nothing else.
            5. Linguistics is an exact science, akin to mathematics with its identities, transformations and simplifications.
            6. The sooner the language received its own written language, the more in our time the written will be different from what should be read. We write “today” instead of “today” because our ancestors said so - today, and also began to write. The pronunciation has changed, but the letter remains. The French generally instead of the normal "sideу"write as much as" beaucoup ".
            7. Language always develops towards simplification of pronunciation.
            8. There are no ancient and new languages. There are only the living and the dead. To put it differently, all languages ​​are equally ancient.
            Maybe I forgot something from the main one. But somehow.
            1. Korsar4 April 27 2020 17: 46 New
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              Красиво.

              It occurred to me that in different industries the speed of language change is different.
              We have not forgotten how to understand each other?

              And immediately the thought of how legislators can distort language. And how it is forced to be vaccinated.
            2. 3x3zsave April 27 2020 21: 50 New
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              Oh, demons, Verbitskaya is not on you! laughing
              Peace be upon her!
      2. kalibr April 27 2020 18: 06 New
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        I was brought up on NIVA magazines from 1898 to 1917. They were in the house and I loved reading them. But out of habit, it was very difficult to understand them. Not even because of yat and feats. How everything else was written. I could, for example, reproduce their text, having this magazine before my eyes. But it is really difficult. Recently, for another article, he rewrote one excerpt from the chronicle. So sat on it longer than over a large text. Customized everything to vocabulary, and a system of phrases.
        1. Korsar4 April 27 2020 18: 15 New
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          About my perception: if you compare the pre-revolutionary editions of Leo Tolstoy, books from the 90-volume, and 22 volumes - they are read differently.

          Articles on the specialty of the late XIX - early XX centuries delight in the transparency and imagery of the language.

          But there you are already directly looking at the authors. Something is lost.

          Like Hugo: "The book killed the building." So now - the text began to supplant the pictures.
          Are we going to come to comics gradually?
          1. Fat
            Fat April 27 2020 20: 34 New
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            Perhaps worse ... To video clips and presentations with subtitles and comments before and after ... (((
            1. Korsar4 April 27 2020 20: 38 New
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              Bradbury incarnates.
  • ee2100 April 27 2020 16: 22 New
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    Recently, a number of articles have appeared on this sign that aim, in my opinion, to show "who is the boss." These articles provoked controversy in the comments and indeed the comments were more interesting, for frequent, than the articles themselves. It was always very clear for professional professors that "who pays - he also orders the music" Step aside and you are no longer in the cage and they attach a label to you. The most innocuous "liberal." On the hook formed a group of professional historians and like-minded associates, with a "classical" understanding of history. This group initiates these articles. Everyone who disagrees with the opinion of this group is immediately recorded as an ignoramus, alternative people, followers of Fomenko, etc. According to their deep conviction, a historian or a member of their group (circle) can talk about history. All others were denied their own opinions. If someone dares to “incorrectly” comment on the “guru”, the members of the circle unanimously attack the name accusing him “of all sins” in a derogatory manner, where the most offensive is “go learn the materiel”.
    And vice versa. If a member of the circle of historians writes an article, it’s all the same about what, the circle of friends amicably praise the “writer” in every way. Such licking or blatant flattery, to me personally, is extremely unpleasant. Perhaps this is customary in scientific and historical circles. Several years ago, the site had many diverse historical articles. I always read with pleasure about the history of Russia and looked forward to new publications. I remembered a series of articles about Prince Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, an article on the symbiosis of the Vikings (Viking) and Slavs, etc. Now there are practically no interesting articles on the history of Russia. I think this is the fruit of the "circle". I wondered, "why do professional historians do this and behave?" It seems that everything should be the other way around - fresh thoughts, a new (different) reading of facts, their different interpretation, new methods that allow a different look at historical processes, logic, common sense, etc. But no. Professional historians, as a rule, teach history according to programs approved by "someone", exams are taken on the same programs. And if the historical guru, God forbid, agree with some sort, even with a controversial statement. For example, that the value of the so-called The battle of the ice, modestly, is exaggerated. How will the professional environment then perceive it, and what will students say in exams? Passage about dissertations is also all from there. Which dissertation will write something contrary to the opinion of his supervisor? Nonsense. And also scientific advice! Yes, a dissertation is a document according to which later money will be paid. The meaning of the article is as follows - you all who are not in the "circle", in the best case, know a story of 5 within the school curriculum and your position on this subscribe accordingly. So, carefully read what professionals write to you.
    The VO site is very good, a lot of analytics and information in general. The historical part of it, I hope, should remain a platform not only for one-sided coverage of the past, but also a place where everyone could express their point of view, not like now, where everything comes down to mutual insults. Let the professionals express a "classical" opinion, but someone is his own, but the main thing is to have a dialogue.
    Regards, idealist.
    1. Korsar4 April 27 2020 17: 04 New
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      Maybe the criterion is professionalism. The points of view may be different. But the persuasiveness of the argument is different from the slogans.

      As for the leaders and thesis - what only in history was not. There were, for example, protections with negative feedback from managers.

      And here everyone has their own - like people.
      1. ee2100 April 27 2020 17: 36 New
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        Is porosofessionalism the word profession?
        1. Korsar4 April 27 2020 17: 42 New
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          I will not, with your permission, analyze the origin of the word.

          Probably, these are systemic representations, and at the same time knowledge of particulars.
          There are certain laws that are dangerous to break: whether in medicine, or in construction.

          And the pursuit of cheap sensation doesn't look great.
          1. ee2100 April 27 2020 17: 55 New
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            There are certain laws that are dangerous to break: whether in medicine, or in construction. I won’t say anything about construction, but about medicine - if "generally accepted" laws were not violated in medicine, then we would be at the medieval level. There are no such "laws" in the history. There are "generally accepted" concepts. Now, before our eyes, the history of the state and the events of the recent past are being rewritten. I don’t think that someone from the community of this site is striving for a sensation in the framework of this sub-site. The audience is small. I am just for respect for the opinion of opponents.
            1. Korsar4 April 27 2020 18: 01 New
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              Respect for opinion is a priori.
              As far as I understand, in case of any disagreement there is an opportunity to calmly oppose. Provocations are not uncommon. And they are often aggressive.

              Changing attitudes may be. But who of those who turned medicine over did not work much. Passing by is difficult to fundamentally change something.
              1. ee2100 April 27 2020 18: 21 New
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                If about medicine, probably worked a lot. Provocations begin often with the "professionals". I’m writing about this. "go learn materiel" "Fomenkovism", a reference to the source, which are often the subject of discussion. If a person believes that the history of Russia is falsified, let him speak out reasonably.
                1. Korsar4 April 27 2020 18: 25 New
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                  Конечно.
                  It is unlikely that there are owners of truth in the last resort.
                  A well-reasoned argument - and it looks solid.

                  And interesting questions and discussion are remembered better.
                  Remarque wrote beautifully about how swearing is remembered.
            2. kalibr April 27 2020 18: 09 New
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              Quote: ee2100
              Now, before our eyes, the history of the state and the events of the recent past are being rewritten.

              Who, exactly, where and when? Give examples ...
              1. ee2100 April 27 2020 18: 22 New
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                Look at the neighbors
                1. kalibr April 27 2020 18: 35 New
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                  Which neighbors? We seem to be talking about our history? What a strange manner to nod at foreigners right there ...
                  1. ee2100 April 27 2020 20: 47 New
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                    Our story is inseparable from the history of foreigners
                    1. kalibr April 27 2020 21: 59 New
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                      Perfectly separable. Have you read my books on the history of Russia published in England? No! What is in the way? And here is the fact that we \ You are here, and they are there. So do not speak empty words to me. Read it first ...
            3. kalibr April 27 2020 18: 10 New
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              Quote: ee2100
              I don’t think that someone from the community of this site is striving for a sensation in the framework of this sub-site.

              Find my material about the Fiume incident - for many it was a real sensation.
            4. kalibr April 27 2020 18: 11 New
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              Quote: ee2100
              I am just for respect for the opinion of opponents.

              Yes of course. But it is pointless to argue with chronic ignoramuses, as well as respect them.
              1. Trilobite Master April 27 2020 19: 16 New
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                Quote: kalibr
                But it’s pointless to argue with chronic ignoramuses

                It makes sense. Of course, most ignoramus cannot be convinced of anything, but website visitors can draw their conclusions based on polemics with such a friend.
                To compete with Fomenko or anyone else in the information space, this has a very direct and practical meaning - after 10, 20 years, our children and grandchildren will not live in a society where Fomenko is taught in history at school.
                1. kalibr April 27 2020 22: 00 New
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                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  but site visitors can draw their conclusions based on polemics with such a friend.

                  Well, that's just why sometimes it is possible. And anyway, peeing against the wind!
    2. kalibr April 27 2020 18: 08 New
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      Quote: ee2100
      For example, that the value of the so-called The battle of the ice, modestly, is exaggerated.

      And who is arguing with this here? A series of articles was on this topic.
      1. ee2100 April 27 2020 18: 47 New
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        The battle of April 5 (12), 1242 was, but not on the lake. Described in the annals contradicts logic and common sense.
        1. kalibr April 27 2020 19: 17 New
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          Again. Here at VO there was a whole series of articles about it ...
          1. ee2100 April 27 2020 20: 38 New
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            I know, but I have no right to my opinion?
            1. kalibr April 27 2020 22: 02 New
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              Once again, the second already ... was a cycle. Before you have something or someone, read what people have done before you. This is normal! Then have someone you want. THEN! Explain available?
              1. ee2100 April 28 2020 03: 26 New
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                What are you so excited in the evening - "have someone you want!" I read including your articles. No one is discussing the "strange" behavior of Prince Alexander. Everyone writes about his genitals a strategic move - to take the knights to the lake. You doubt that the battle may be on the lake and that’s it. Those. history, as a science, is not interested in this question. There is a certain propaganda component of this battle, and this is more important than doubt. So you can understand?
                1. kalibr April 28 2020 07: 28 New
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                  For the third time I am writing the same thing! Before drawing any conclusions on the basis of common sense and expressing them categorically, one should study, and comprehensively, the historiography of the issue.
                  Quote: ee2100
                  So you can understand?

                  That's how you can understand me!
                  1. ee2100 April 28 2020 08: 22 New
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                    As far as I understand this question in your study?
                    1. kalibr April 28 2020 09: 41 New
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                      Alexander! The study of this issue today does not provide any basis for a single categorical statement. The only thing that is beyond doubt is that the battle was and we won. And that’s all! Everything else is from the realm of conjecture and fabrication.
                      1. ee2100 April 28 2020 15: 48 New
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                        Therefore, some of its users have a negative attitude towards you, on this site. You yourself doubt the reliability of the described events, but refuse to draw logical conclusions from the primary sources. Do not touch the sacred cow. Adherents of the “classical” interpretation of events carry nonsense about segovitsa, ambush regiments, a strategic genius that allowed the knights to be lured on thin ice, etc., etc. But all this is also conjecture and fabrication.
                        Silent, you'll be whole!
                      2. kalibr April 28 2020 18: 13 New
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                        Quote: ee2100
                        Adherents of the “classical” interpretation of events carry nonsense about segovitsa, ambush regiments, a strategic genius that allowed the knights to be lured on thin ice, etc., etc.

                        For the fourth time I am writing - there was a cycle of my articles about this. Read. I personally never wrote about this that you do not like so much! I repeat the second time: the sources known to us do not give any reason for this. You are breaking through the open door. And the opinion of local amateurs does not interest me at all.
                      3. ee2100 April 28 2020 19: 43 New
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                        As in the best traditions of historical discussions "the opinion of local amateurs do not interest me" that is, know your place!
                      4. kalibr April 28 2020 21: 26 New
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                        Quote: ee2100
                        know your place!

                        You two, three, and even four times you repeated the same thing. You were told that you are breaking through the open door. It remains now to repeat your own words ...
                      5. ee2100 April 28 2020 21: 29 New
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                        I did not expect anything else from you.
                      6. kalibr April 29 2020 06: 12 New
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                        That's good, I do not like to disappoint people!
                      7. ee2100 April 29 2020 09: 10 New
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                        By the evening you become irritable, rude and angry. Are you drinking
                      8. kalibr April 29 2020 10: 01 New
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                        I work a lot and still have to deal with .... it is not surprising that by the end of the working day my mood can go bad. A drink? What does it mean to drink? Since our people understand this, no, I don’t drink it. I don’t drink vodka at all, and home-made wine from my own summer house for lunch is almost always. The French do not sit down to dinner without wine, and nothing.
                      9. ee2100 April 29 2020 11: 44 New
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                        And that’s good. And it’s good that you admit your irritation.
                      10. kalibr April 29 2020 11: 56 New
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                        When, Alexander, you will have 40 books published in the USSR, the Russian Federation, England and Germany (not counting the electronic ones), and more than 2000 articles both on websites and in magazines, again like the USSR, the Russian Federation, and many other countries, you , perhaps it will be clear how it feels to communicate with people who have to repeat the same thing two, three or more times, but they still don’t want to hear from you.
                      11. ee2100 April 29 2020 12: 05 New
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                        This is your choice. Repeat what you don’t want to listen to. I looked at this site there are about 1300 publications. You can be proud. The audience of the site is small, but only your supporters support you. Write the flag in your hands. Only the site has less and less interesting material.
                      12. kalibr April 29 2020 12: 26 New
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                        Quote: ee2100
                        Only the site has less and less interesting material.

                        This is not my headache.
                      13. ee2100 April 29 2020 12: 56 New
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                        Why? You are a member of the site’s editorial board and your position that professional historians understand history discourages those who want to publish something. Are you discussing your new publication today and is there anything sensible? More about the weather, but alcohol. Little brawl. Well, they do not forget to praise you.
                      14. kalibr April 29 2020 13: 51 New
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                        If you read my comments, you should see that I’m just the first thing to offer to everyone who wants to publish here. But with links to sources, yes, and not just "the truth was revealed to me in a transcendental way." Want to publish in a serious science journal? I am here to help. Here is your address: Free article https://www.careers.panor.ru. And what "practical discussion" do you need? People just talk, they are pleased. What else is required? "Surreal" You will be in the journal "Questions of History." And praise means they like it. Do not like you? Write to them, not to me, to them - "What do you say you praise?" And get an answer, but I don’t know which one. And by the way, those who have something to say are not afraid to write. Mikhail, The owner of the trilobite is not a historian, but writes, and there are still such people ... So there is no need to scare them away.
                      15. ee2100 April 29 2020 14: 07 New
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                        I wrote about this in the comments to this article. Our polemic is empty. I hope you understand that. A reference to one’s own publications is, at a minimum, no respect for the opinion of another. It turns out that your publication is the ultimate truth.
                      16. kalibr April 29 2020 16: 10 New
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                        Quote: ee2100
                        It turns out that your publication is the ultimate truth.

                        Very often - yes! Sometimes not! Once again I write, when you are given a grant by the Russian Academy of Sciences and an entire institute is checking your work, then ... we can assume that this ... today is just such a truth. The second time I write - people talk and rejoice. They have every right! Again, I write again - first have a historiography, then have your opinion. My articles, including those about the Slaughter, help to have it. Explain available?
                      17. ee2100 April 29 2020 16: 59 New
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                        Historiography is a record. Chronicles, it seems you wrote, these are works of art based on real events. I'm not talking about a battle, but in general. If I’m not mistaken, E. Vashchenko doubted the place of the battle on 5 (12) .04.1242, counting the pressure created by the knight on horseback on spring ice. But that’s all. My opinion about the place of the battle was formed during the second reading of this passage of the chronicle. Naturally, it contradicts the generally accepted opinion. But discussions with no one, including with you, fail. We will remain with our opinion. Initially, I was interested in the Battle of Rakovors. Or rather its location.
                      18. kalibr April 29 2020 17: 25 New
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                        Quote: ee2100
                        Historiography is a record.

                        And you, it turns out, do not even know the simplest. You also dream of the right to your own opinion. History (from Greek historia - history and gráphõ - I write) is a scientific discipline that studies the experience of studying history in its historical retrospective. Lord, save me from those who are interested.
                      19. ee2100 April 29 2020 17: 54 New
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                        Rejoice that you unsubscribed
  • Trilobite Master April 27 2020 18: 14 New
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    Quote: ee2100
    Recently, a number of articles have appeared on this sign that aim, in my opinion, to show "who is the boss"

    I do not agree. Not "who is the boss", but "in response to objections." For example, this article, or rather, a series of articles about Russian chronicles, came out in response to the loud statements of some comrades that, they say, everything was falsified. Different people pointed out in the comments that all that is written in the article, but these are comments, many of them are read only by the people to whom they are addressed. And now a series of articles has been published addressed to an indefinite circle of people. Accordingly, there will be no need to repeat.
    You are talking about a certain "circle" where "a cock praises a cuckoo." smile
    Firstly, admission to this club is open daily and around the clock. smile It is enough to prove yourself to be a competent and cultural interlocutor and, despite the differences in views on history, they will respect you and listen to your opinion. And most importantly, in this "circle" no one is embarrassed to study, although many themselves have extensive knowledge in various fields, including history. There are no snobs (unless I am), there is only a rejection of stupidity, arrogance and militant illiteracy, in this yes, the members of the "circle" are in solidarity.
    There is no "corporate solidarity" either. Errors (and they are common to everyone) will tell you in detail, it’s just done in a form that does not cause a negative attitude towards the interlocutor, therefore it is not striking, but this is due simply to ordinary education. Of course, the attitude towards aggressive ignoramuses is different.
    Personally, I advocate here that the study of history should be approached from a purely scientific point of view. And I can seriously take only those opponents who form and defend their positions precisely from this point of view. If such an opponent is a supporter of the new chronology, if he manages to stay on the scientific track defending his theories - honor to him, praise and my respect, but I'm afraid that this is impossible.
    Today, one character has already stated that he will have nothing to do with our science. How do you command him? Recognize that he has his own “science” that is different from ours and that there can be two mutually exclusive answers to one question?
    1. ee2100 April 27 2020 18: 42 New
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      Beautifully set out. But you know that in life, I'm talking about discussions on the site, everything is not so beautiful and smooth. If you are declared a "novokhronolodets" probably anyone will be offended. In articles on chronicles I do not like statements: "the chronicler saw himself" or "he himself took part." An example from my life. In the sixties, the so-called Lenin's lessons. And now a certain comrade came to our class who said that he had seen Lenin. In time, it could well be. If I now sit down to write an article about Lenin and describe in it how I communicated with eyewitnesses of revolutionary events, who knew Lenin closely. Will it be true? This article correctly says that a literary work is based on history.
      1. Trilobite Master April 27 2020 19: 05 New
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        Historical sources are a complicated, contradictory and multifaceted thing. At the time of the formation of historical science in Russia, chronicles were actually the only source of historical knowledge. And despite this, the first historians managed to create such a historical picture that has not undergone global changes until now, although since the time of Tatishchev, Miller and others, many historical concepts have been revised more than once. Later, other sources began to be added to the annals, now there are much more of them, related sciences are developing, one archeology provides a huge amount of material for understanding. I think about Yaroslav the Wise, his era, we now, in a sense, know more than, for example, his great-grandson Yuri Dolgoruky knew.
        So the story is not alive in chronicles. And historians have long ceased to regard what written by the chroniclers as canonical truth, checking every line, searching and finding (or not finding smile ) confirmation of each annalistic story.
        1. ee2100 April 27 2020 19: 16 New
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          There is nothing to add. Everything is correct. Unless the considerations relate to particular issues
          1. Trilobite Master April 27 2020 19: 17 New
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            Visit us again. smile
            1. ee2100 April 27 2020 20: 43 New
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              I. here almost every day. We are discussing with you about whether the knights from Ottepa came to the aid of the knights from Tartu, during the siege of him by Yaroslav Vsevolodovich and others. Remained in their opinion
              1. Trilobite Master April 27 2020 21: 40 New
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                Quote: ee2100
                Remained in your opinion

                As it usually happens.
        2. Korsar4 April 27 2020 20: 01 New
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          No. I don’t believe in it. The closer the event, or person, the better you feel them. And the ancestor of the princely family. And brought up, and trained.

          We can now only guess at such a number of details that taboo was for contemporaries.
          1. Trilobite Master April 27 2020 20: 13 New
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            Contemporaries could use only eyewitness accounts, which, as you know, "lie like eyewitnesses." smile And not necessarily consciously - just human perception is very selective, memory is variable, but the truth ... I'm not sure that, for example, I want to tell my grandchildren about myself the whole truth ... There was too much in life that should not be proud of. Yes, in addition, many with whom things worked together may not like this frankness ...
            No, I don’t trust eyewitnesses. And I do not advise anyone. Check their testimonies, verify and verify. smile
            1. Korsar4 April 27 2020 20: 31 New
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              It’s too early to create a new volume of JZL.
              And chroniclers rarely write now. The chances that the forum will continue for a long time are also few.

              So only tablets remain to be trusted. And a good carver to invite.

              In general, this is a classic:

              “Only the hero’s work, but the sage’s speech
              Centuries pass without knowing the end ”(c).
              1. Phil77 April 27 2020 21: 04 New
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                * The time has come for the true sage to finally speak of reason.
                Show us the word praising the mind
                and teach people with your story * He is, Firdousi. hi
                1. Korsar4 April 27 2020 21: 11 New
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                  "In our time, it’s more profitable to fool around, for
                  Reason today is the price of garlic ”(c).
                  1. Phil77 April 27 2020 21: 15 New
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                    And I like something else!
                    * Everything in the world will be covered by the dust of oblivion
                    Only two know neither death nor corruption:
                    only the hero’s business and the sage’s speech. Centuries pass without knowing the end. * hi
                    1. Phil77 April 27 2020 21: 18 New
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                      * Thinking about what lies ahead
                      The purpose of choosing a good, to her directly or *.
                    2. Korsar4 April 27 2020 21: 21 New
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                      And one does not exclude the other:

                      "From the spinning of the pottery wheel of the times
                      Sense is learned only by one who is learned and smart,
                      Or drunk, accustomed to the rotation of the world,
                      Absolutely nothing thinking in it! ” (c).
                    3. Phil77 April 27 2020 21: 26 New
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                      Sergey, what is your opinion in the West, at the turn of the 10-11 centuries, a poet comparable to Firdousi? This is still a difficult question. hi
                    4. Phil77 April 27 2020 21: 27 New
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                      Again, Omar Khayyam, Nizami.
                    5. Korsar4 April 27 2020 21: 59 New
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                      Different genres.

                      But I highlight Khayyam, Firdousi and Jalaletdin Rumi.
                    6. Korsar4 April 27 2020 22: 01 New
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                      Although, Rumi, of course, is the XNUMXth century.
  • Oldbaton April 28 2020 09: 46 New
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    Thank! Very nice article.